I decided to delve into the Books for specs on the trucks of the R-17. If what I read is correct, R-15s had SKF roller bearing trucks, R-17s had Hyatt, and R-21s got Timkens. How interesting! Branford's Car has an SKF Truck and a Timken Truck. May someone correct me if I make a mistake.
The original Hyatt Truck under 6688, which was damaged in '92, sitsoutside coupled to a Trolley Work Motor near Barn 6.
The Source of Information is the Evolution of the NYC Subways Book from the Transit Museum.
-Stef
acording to cbs newz last night the amrtak route called the
"empire builder" & all of the other amtrak long distance
lines will be toast,... & will not be funded and will die off...
& I understnd this will kill many folks who use amtrak for not
just passenger use only but pakage express and other services as
well..( i dont like flying anyway ) ....@ oh well...!!!
( sigh ) ..........
I knew that this moment would come sooner or later. The president of the NRPC (Amtrak's real name) said himself during congressional hearings not that long ago that such routes were never going to be profitable. So basically look for routes that are not defined as "high speed corridors" to get the ax first. Hopefully the "high speed corridors" list includes the City of New Orleans and the Silver Service lines (I got major interests at work here. It was a real pain in the rear the last time I went to see my extended family in SC, having to rent a car and drive for 18 hrs and all).
you know if common sense were used amtrak would B included in some
kind of a reliable transportation alternative backup....
there should B railroad transportation all over the U.S. ...!!
sure beats that airport crap... guess i better go greyhound !!!
lol .........
Hey! I'd *fly* long before I'd ever consider long distance travel on a BUS!
I am planning on riding the Empire Builder when I come east for vacation this fall.
Elias
i dont think i could deal with the airport...>>^*@**@!#*^$@<<better hurry up and catch amtrak while U can ......!!
Planes are all the rage NOW! It used to water transport then rails now planes. Thats life get over it. Until the MTA buys railfan windowed cars Amtrak will not be profitable (until hell freeze over). Amtrak is not wanting to compete with airlines which is why they are magots eating it alive. Amtrak has to make the NEC faster (200 mph) and make a high speed route between NY and Chicogo (300 mph at the minimum, maglev or TGV) and other high traffic routes that airlines have high demand on. Would you rather take a train which is 7 hours or a plane which is 2(plane)+4(delayes)+3(security)=9 hours and you are harrased by the cops and security guards!
From today's Boston Globe.
Boy... Makes the teething problems of the R142's and Metro's CAF cars seem pretty mild in comparison. I'm glad I was at least able to ride the Type-8's once or twice while living in Boston.
-- David
Chicago, IL
When is MBTA going to pull the plug on Breda, kill the contract and then place an order with Kinki-Sharo for low-floors that won't screw up and live with the 7's without shipping them for a retrofit that makes them unable to multiple with the unmodified 7's?
This has been going on much too long. Makes the late, unlamented Adtranz actually look like a good company. MBTA has be screwed by Breda with none of the pleasure.
This whole situation is just pathetic! I don't see how the remaining Boeings are going to last, and there is already a green line car shortage. I realize the MBTA accepted these cars, but they should make Breda pay for these repairs. -Nick
"I realize the MBTA accepted these cars, but they should make Breda pay for these repairs. -Nick "
And Breda will say that the problem is with the track, and not their responsibility at all. And they would probably be right. Too bad you cant just buy trolley cars right out of the box.
Maybe Athern should make them.
Elias
Too bad you cant just buy trolley cars right out of the box.
Although the PCC car was a grand experiment in that direction. Had it worked out as intended, that's exactly what you would have done.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I really don't know much about PCCs. Why didn't they work out as intended? I thought that they were successful, considering that there were lots of PCCs out there.
One post said that even their old PCC had up to 5 derailments a year, and Boston thought this was acceptable.
Other PCC operators said "NOT"
The new cars are low riders (find your way to the Lyons (France) street cars on this site, to see what I think they mean by this) and thus are a technology unknown to Boston. My guess is that they cannot tolerate the poor trackmanship that seems to be there.
Actually the French Tollies are very striking, and is the sort of thing that I would want to put in NYC (on dedicated on-street ROWs) Of course these look like some kind of a slug that you might find under a damp rock, but are nice nonetheless.
Elias
I find it ironic that the "T" states in their Night Owl service that they close each night to maintain the system.
Perhaps, after riding most of the Green Line, they should focus a bit on the tracks! There is a part of the line that goes out to Riverside where I thought the car was going to be run off the tracks.
Chip
"One post said that even their old PCC had up to 5 derailments a year, and Boston thought this was acceptable."
The article in the Globe mentioned five derailments a year as if this were current. Therefore it is likely that these derailments were with the Boeing LRV / Kinki Sharyo fleet mostly.
"And Breda will say that the problem is with the track, and not their responsibility at all. And they would probably be right"
Interesting point, but I don't know if that is true or not. The MBTA started running the type 8s in 2001 strictly on the "B" (Boston College) line after derailments in 2000. They did this after replacing a section of the track on that line. I know that one of the 2001 derailments occured in the central subway, but did the other occur where the new or old track was? -Nick
IMHO, if the Kinki's and the Boeing don't derail, running over the same tracks its Breda's fault
I find it interesting that Breda is still blaming the T's track for derailment problems. It is apparent that the "sensitivity" of these cars to existing conditions that do not affect the PCC/LRV/Type7 fleet is a thin argument. Sound vehicle design and engineering takes into account a variety of car and track wear conditions foreseen in the real world, plus a safety factor (either industry standard or by experience) built in. Experience (which Breda has several decades of) should have headed this off before it got to delivered cars, why it didn't only Breda knows.
It is unfortunate that the riding public will have to bear with the Boeings for sometime to come, and the T to continue to have servicable car shortages to maintain schedules. It is fortunate, however, that this was identified before the Type 8 cars became accepted, because it would be a tragedy if someone got seriously hurt/dead.
The PCCs and their ilk have regular railway trucks.
The newer sorts of low riding cars do not.
They are so low that I could not see any trucks at all, but I suspect that the wheels are mounted on each side of the frame more in the manner of casters. I do not see where an axel might be which is why I think that there are so many problems with these.
Maybe someone can enlighten us with facts instead of my guesses.
Elias
Why don't they just reverse engineer and copy ALL electrical and mechanical systems on the PCC cars and copy the superior 1936 technology within modern style carbodies with air conditioning. As for the low floors, I think that ADA should be amended so that transit properties merely have to provide van service to those who need it (cheaper than unreliable bus lifts and low floor vehicles and more convenient to differently abled customers).
Providing van service is not cheaper than using lifts, by a long shot. According to the NTD, it costs around $20.00-$30.00 ($53.00 in Atlanta) to transport a passenger with a van service, while it costs about $1.00-$4.00 for bus and rail.
How much does the cost of installing and maintaining ADA Compliance features add to the cost of transit vehicles (low floors, bus lifts, etc.
<<< It is unfortunate that the riding public will have to bear with the Boeings for sometime to come >>>
From my experience, there's nothing wrong with the Boeing LRV's from a passenger standpoint. They've been fairly comfortable when I've ridden them in recent years, in both summer and winter. And since the LRV's and Type 7's have similar-looking interiors, I doubt many passengers notice the difference anyways.
Probably the bigger disadvantage is that the Boeing cars are no doubt becoming more costly to keep in service. IIRC, the rebuilding program undertaken by the MBTA in the mid-1990's was intended to keep the remaining 55 cars going for 5 years at most.
Ironic, isn't it, that the LRV's are now being called upon the keep the Green Line going while the MBTA fights to get a problematic new fleet of cars in service!
Jim D.
The Boston Type 8 cars seem to be another example of what can happen when off-the-shelf European or Asian technology is adapted to American operating requirements. Just as Amtrak's Acela compromised French high-speed designs with resulting dimensional, weight and operating troubles, the Type 8s appear to be a matter of force-fitting low-floor cars onto a centurty-old system with its own unique operating characteristics - and pitfalls.
That said, it does seem the T should have realized that cars substantially different from those in service will need more time and design tweaking to perform properly. Then again, Boston HAD low floor designs (at least a low entrance) almost 90 years ago in the form of the 6000-series center-entrance cars plus the infamous "two-rooms-and-a-bath" trolleys built using two old single-truckers with a low center section spliced in between them. And some of those ungainly 6000s ran until the early 1950s!
Still NO EXCUSE for shoddy engineering or manufacturing. BREDA and CAF get paid to produce smething functional, not just go through the motions. IIRC, the CAF folks couldn't even be relied on to use the specified grade of steel for the axles UN 'qualified bidder' !
Do you keep track of each message that you delete? I am just curious as I am waiting, pressing the refresh button each time, the number of responses changed from "1445" to "1444."
Because the oldest message is now TOO OLD to be in the index, it is now older than your search limit.
I see. My view is set to "Three Days". I have given up "One Month" because it took too long to load 5726 messages. (Last time I did)
Pig gave you your answer but about the deleted messages, yes I keep track of them.
I was just wondering if any NYCTA routes are available for download or if there are any routes are in developement for MSTS? thanx :)
I wish there were.
I think Microsoft should make a NYC Subway Simulator. That would rule.
Are u kidding me? Microsoft would mess that up big time.
Ever since i got MSTS, i've been waiting for NYC routes.
Check out www.monorails.org Old Dominion University in Norfolk VA is opening this fall a Maglev to shuttle students around campus. Although it is said to be the first revenue maglev, but didn't Birmingham England in the mid 1980's operate Maglev shuttle between it's airport and nearby rail station? Does this still operate?
"but didn't Birmingham England in the mid 1980's operate Maglev shuttle between it's airport and nearby rail station?"
Is it a "revenue" service?
didn't Birmingham England in the mid 1980's operate Maglev shuttle between it's airport and nearby rail station? Does this still operate?
It did indeed. (It was about 10 miles from where I am sitting now.) Theoretically it wasn't a "revenue" service as it was provided free of charge. It was replaced a few years ago by a very slow shuttle bus (the traffic at BHX can be appalling) - still costing £0.00 - because it'd cost too much to keep the MagLev in repair. It's a bit of a shame really, as it was a very smooth ride (on the rare occasion it hadn't broken down) and there were quite nice views from it.
Is the Track/guideway still up?
Yes. The Maglev is being replaced by a Dopplemeyer cable hauled system using most of the original ROW. Birmingham International Airport's webpage has info about this.
Berlin had a maglev, but it was removed in the early 1990's to make way for a U-Bahn line.
I guess the technology is not as impressive as people thought it might be.
Elias
CHATHAM SQUARE IN SESSION
RIGHT NOW!
BusTalkers are welcome, too!Chatham Square is the place to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!ARE YOU READY TO EMBARK ON AN EXCITING JOURNEY TO CHATHAM SQUARE???
Just click here and join in! (Note the new, temporary address) If you have mIRC, do not click the link. The room name is #chathamsquare and is on the webchat.org server. COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE. YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED IN THE CHAT ROOM.
If anyone is interested in answering some Arrow III questions for me, you can visit the post at Railroad.net under the heading "Arrow III Questions".
I have posted two more messages under this heading. If anyone is willing to visit please click the link posted under the first thread.
I have only received a brief answer from only one poster at Railroad.net, so anyone is free to post or answer.
I just got a new scanner and have a question. I have a file scanned and saved it in Window Imaging as a .bmp file. How can I post it in a new message so you Subtalkers can see it? Pardon my ignorance
on this subject , but I am sure someone out there can help!
Chuck
Chuck, first you have to upload it to some internet webspace - your personal web space that you probably have from your ISP, for example - and then post a link. Since I'm no good at figuring out how to make the actual html commands display here, I'll post an image from Branford of PCC 1001 approaching Short Beach and then you can "View Page Source" and look at my html to see how to do it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh, and let me suggest that you save the file as a .jpg if you can... works a lot better on the web.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks, I'll try to work something out.
Chuck
STOP LOOK LISTEN
1) Your scanner scans in DOTS PER INCH
2) Your printer prints in DOTS PER INCH
3) BUT your screen views in PIXELS (Picture Elements)
---a. if your monitor is like most it is set to 800 px
---b. which translates to about 72 DOTS PER INCH
---c. so do not scan pictures for the internet at more than this number.
4) The internet prefers .jpg format pictures
---a. set your scanner to save the file as a .jpg
---b. .jpg images may be saved in higher or lower compression.
---c. choose the most compressed or smallest number that still looks good.
---d. this will allow faster loading and downloading and save bandwidth.
5) save the photo to your website (preferably with your ISP if they allow this.
---a. many free ISPs will not permit images to be viewed from outside of their own site. Make an .html page with the picture on it.
---b. you may be able to find free image hosting sites, some people here use them.
6) you can make it a click-on, or you can make it appear in-line.
---a. a click on is written {a href="http://yourwebsite.com/image.jpg"}My Train{/a} (Make the braces "{" be angled brackets. The text "My Train" will be the text that is highlighted as a click-on.
---b. an in-line photo is {img src="http://yourwebsite.com/image.jpg}
Elias
> .jpg ... works a lot better on the web.
Especially on Netscape. Netscape has always had a bug which prevents it from displaying .bmp files. I have written
to them about it, as well as other things, but they don't care.
- Lyle Goldman
.bmp files are not native to any WC3 protocol that i know of, and they certainly are not appropriate for use on the internet.
If MSIE products appear to support .bmps it is only because of its tight interation with the operating system which does support them.
However I just this moment discovered that Opera also supports .bmp files, so I guess that was a choice made by the people at netscape.
But then netscape *is* a *browser* and .bmp files have no business on the internet, them being much to big for transmission, esp with smaller connections.
The supported internet graphics files are .jpg .gif and .png the latter intended to replace the .gif protocol which is heavily licensed. .png is slow in catchin on however.
Elias
That's not a bug. No browser is obligated to support inline viewing of any particular format (Lynx, a text-based browser, doesn't support inline viewing of any graphical format, although it will launch an external viewer if available). It's become traditional for graphical browsers to support certain formats, like GIF, JPEG, and PNG, although even that isn't required. BMP has certainly not made it to that list, for good reason.
What you're asking for isn't a bug fix; it's a new feature. Send your request to the proper channels and the right people will see it. (That doesn't mean they'll decide to implement it, of course.)
Which FD telephoto lens did you use for this picture? I'm thinking about spending the next paycheque already and the FD 70-150 4.5 distinctly lacks contrast and is difficult to focus quickly...
-Robert King
Canon FD 100-300 5.6 - an old one, albeit with the more modern bayonet, not the preferred breechlock - not new enough to have the macro focus like Jr. has on his 70-210 4.5. I was down close to the 100mm end, probably around 150 but I don't recall for sure.
The 70-150 has a reputation as being a "flat" lens - one of the reasons it's not in my arsenal. Jr.'s 70-210 is much better for non-tripod applications than my 100-300 so if you don't need the 300 and want to work hand-held I'd say find a nice 70-210. OR, if you don't need the zoom, get an FD 135 3.5 - nice ones with a breechlock show up regularly on eBay, much less money than the zoom. I've got one of those too - bought it new 30 years ago - but don't carry it often because my wife likes to have it available for her use.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That had to be around 150 at least, if not more. Look how tightly the ties are packed together and the compression of the PCC's length. I don't recall the ties being compressed that much the one time I've used the 70-150 around railway track like that (the Halton museum) right out at 150mm when I took a picture of an all electric PCC. 4600 didn't appear to be that drastically compressed either.
Anyways, that's a nice picture of 1001.
-Robert King
75-96 DPI is sufficient for web use.
*That* is all that your monitor can display.
Elias
We're referring to focal length setting on the zoom here, Elias... 150mm, not 150 dpi...
And yes, it could conceivably be at full (300mm) zoom or somewhere approaching that, but I don't recall it as such. Didn't write it down, though, so I can't be sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Glad you like the shot. Incidentally, that's Lou from Brooklyn at the controls.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris,
Nice shot. Also thanks for identifying the operator. Next time he
cretches, he doesn't run Brooklyn caws, well in living color on 1001.
:-) Sparky
Gawdarn, now you have my face all over the internet!!! >G<
Just kidding!!
Ohh and Jeff's signals are working.
yep ! i tried dat webshots then yahoo tripod they all rejected my
photos uploads
it killed everything
"webshots then yahoo tripod they all rejected my photos uploads"
They certainly will not accept .bmps and probably will reject large .jpgs. many do not allow .gifs either.
Elias
I got disassociated from Tripod, which I had stopped using anyway when I found Yahoo photos. Then when you steered me to Webshots, I've used it ever since...without problem except for a weekend when they were down.
chuchubob's Webshots photos
Sorry, Elias, I replied to the wrong message. It was Salaam who directed me to Webshots.
my point is uploading my transit photography has been blocked by
""webshots""
however i will try again on this post to prove or .......!!...?
i will try 2 see if my link works or fails the test below
if it does not oh well ......
oh well the link worked for a while ...
about one hour !!!
however i am working on a site here post this into your URL
still working on dis site under constrction !!
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/
thankz enjoy !!
I give up it seems all the websites i belong 2 dont allow uploads !
.........damn its like riding on a JUNK R-44 ....no railfan window !!\
UGH !
First, try to scan out of Photoshop or any other reasonable image software. Second, set DPI to a minimum of 150 for a 4x6 35mm film print. If the picture is especially good or has details or has large portions you plan to crop out then set the dpi higher to something like 200 or 300 dpi. The critical part is picking the Jpeg compression rate. The more compression, the poorer the image quality, the less compression, the larger the image. You want to shoot for a final image size of around 100k, with a maximum of about 150k. If you try a compression level and you come out too high, try a crop, resize or increase the compression. If you get a really small image size, try decreasing the compression to capture more detail. Uniform colours like a sky or wall make for small jpeg sizez. Complex patterns like RR balast or trees make for larger jpeg sizes.
Also, I've found that JPEG does a very poor job of compressing certain solid colors -- red, in particular, gets very splotchy even at reasonably high quality settings. This is a problem for me as I have a good number of head-on shots of 1 trains.
Is it a problem of the .jpg format, of your application, or were these pix taken with your digital camera.
Digital cameras have a funny matrix, since each pixel can be set to only record one color (R G B) Actually I think the pattern is something like RGBGRGBGRGBGRGBGR, and so reds are not well represented, and your application needs to fudge a bit to represent it. New chips for digital cameras are coming out now where each pixel *can* record all of the colors but these cost much much more. I expect the prices of the new chip to come down substantially in the coming year. This is why I am putting off buying a new digital camera from this year's budget.
Try scanning on a scanner a photo with similar red saturations, and then trying it in .jpg ; a .gif ; and a .tif format. Then you will know more. Also watch how you save it in the .jpg format, try bigger files sizes (les compression) to see if that helps. What size *is* your camera, if it is a 1.x or 2.x megapixel this is less good. I's not want one less than 3.x megapixel.
Actually .jpgs can display millions of colors, while the .gif alogorythem can oly show several hundred. This is why graphis are better as .gif while photos are better as .jpgs.
Elias
No digital camera here. I scan everything first into oversized lossless TIFFs or PNGs. Then I scale down to the size I want and manually convert to JPEG using xat.com JPEG Optimizer, which allows me to compress different parts of the image to different degrees.
I believe one recognized shortcoming of JPEG is that it does not do well on large areas of one color. (JPEG is designed to work best on photographic images. How often do photographic images have large areas of one color?) For whatever reason, it seems to do a particularly bad job on red. Unfortunately, the 1 is otherwise quite photogenic.
JPEG's can handle red at very low or lossless compression levels. On Paint Shoppe Pro that is a compression level less than 5.
On this past Thursday, there were two explosions or noises that sounded like explosions heard by numerous passengers at Atlatnic Ave on the Q line platform at around 6:40PM. Anybody have specific info?
MAJOR work there. I don't even know what the current layout is anymore. But it's looking nicer and nicer everyday.
A person or persons removed a no clearance sign ,witch then was place between the 3rd rail and running rail causing some small explosions and power to be turned off.
How does that cause an explosion???
Short circuit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where can I get a radio that can tap into the Subway radio frequencies?
Radio Shack.
Then you need somebody to tell you what freqs to tune it to.
Heck, *I* can't even tell you what freqs my ambulance pager runs on but chanel 1 is our local repeater that connects me to the Law Enforcement Center.
Elias
When you get a scanner, I'll give you the frequencies for NYC Transit.
Yeah... well, I'm probly a little too far away to pick it up anyway.
: ) Hehehehee.... Elias
How far is "a little too far away"?
I live in North Dakota : )
Don't think UHF is that powerful!
Learned that from a article where they were bitchin at the TAPD for not having the same radio tech (UHF for TAPD, VHF for NYPD) and channels as NYPD and that NYPD's radio can't work underground.
For the frequencies go to:
http://www.panix.com/~clay/scanning/frequencies/nycta.shtml
For a scanner try Radio Shack (as was heretofore mentioned) or if you anywhere near a Best Buy try them. The one on Queens Blvd has a couple of Bearcats: a sport model for about $175 and an older 60XLT model (I have one of those and it works well) for $62. You will usually find them in the car radio area of Best Buy.
Good Luck
Allan
What programs would you recommend for building subway stations?
BVE. By entering coordinates for vertexes, you can make objects. There's also a viewer if you don't want to use the simulation and code it into the program. E-mail me for infos if you want...
BVE is dead man.
Are you asking about actual CAD programs, or programs for train simulator games?
Can't help you with the latter, but if you're looking for actual CAD software, I'd use what the architects and engineers typically use: AutoCAD (used by about 75% of the architects in the US) or MicroStation (another popular CAD program). There are other CAD packages out there, but AutoCAD's DWG file format is the de facto standard in the construction industry these days.
Of course, AutoCAD is also grossly expensive and not typically available to the average Joe off the street. However, there's AutoCAD LT which is commercially available at a fraction of the price. It's 100% compatible with AutoCAD, but unlike the full version, LT has no 3D capability. (If you're a student, you may be able to get AutoCAD at a substantial discount. Try www.journeyed.com.)
Check out www.autodesk.com for more info about AutoCAD, or www.bentley.com for info about MicroStation.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thank You!
I'm more familiar with the engineering side of design (the better side :-) ). One program is called GTSTRUDL which is for structural analysis and is the creme de la creme of structural programs. There's another CAD program called CAiCE which specializes in transportation design, but I've only used it with road design, so I don't know what you can do with it for rail design. I have experience with Microstation working at the Ga DOT. I think AutoCAD is much better than Microstation. I've used AutoCAD 2000 with design projects for my classes at school. I'm currently designing a four-lane highway through an industrial area. It is much more intuitive and easier to use than Mircostation. Microstation has more features, but I still like AutoCAD more. Unfortunately for me, transport enigineers mostly use Microstation.
Like David said, all these programs cost too much for any individual to buy. If availible, a demo program of any of these would probably be enough for someone who's looking to just mess around on their own.
What does anyone see if they cut-and-paste? I just want to give this a shot
http://community.webshots.com/photo/20082785/31171235pGqwqcaWuR
Good picture. It is a little too dark on the platform. Sunset is brilliant. But everything else is in shadows.
COOL. I just wanted to see if I did it right. So now I can paste my links up here.
Very Nice Photo!
Thanks I try
Doesn't Work. All pictures are red X iconed out.
NICE pic... THANKS.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the MTA should give some thought into having the Subways coming to a Gradual stop, instead a rough stop, and they should also have the trains start off smoothly like the LIRR Cars. I also think the MTA should install vandal-resitant seats like they do with the Buses.
Sometime this week I will post something on what the MTA needs to do with the Trains.
What do you mean by rough stop? Do people get thrown out of their seats? Of course not! So there is no rough stop! Subways are rapid transit. Fast acceleration and fast stopping. If subway trains make a more gradual stop and accellerate slower, then NYCT would not have the ability to move as many passengers per hour through the Central Business District as currently due to increased running time. I also don't know what you mean about vandal resistant seats on buses. They are plastic just like what's in the subway, just a different color!
Just a little more off a smoother stop, braking there is to much jerking. I did'nt think about how taking off slow would affect Passengers Commute. If you have ever riden a new bus, they have vandal-resistant seats, I like this to be with the subways because they feel a little more comfortable, than hard seats.
Much more difficult to clean off the urine.
Blood and Gum. Are you talking about the hard seats with the shag carpet on them?
There are a lot of things the MTA could do, but the suggestions you listed unfortunately are infeasable.
If trains accelerate and decelerate slower (or, as you put it, gradually start and stop), the average speed of the train is slower. On the railroads where stopping and starting is less common (an hour at full speed and then 2 minutes of slowing and starting), this may work. But in the subway, much of the time is spent speeding up and slowing down (a minute between stations, and 20 seconds to get up to speed or to stop).
And I haven't noticed a problem with vandalism on bus seats. And besides, short of making the seats out of concrete or really hard plastic, it's probably not possible to prevent vandalism. And you're sitting on the vandalism, so it's not as if you can even see it most of the time.
Won't that slow down the train? I like the acceleration of the R142As but I hate jerkyness that the R-38/R-40s give off.
I did what could be called a 4-boro round robin yesterday evening. I get on the Q44 in the Bronx, and sit for a relativly uneventful trip all the way out to Jamaica Center. Board at Grant Cir at 6:30 PM, make it to Jamaica Center at around a quarter to eight.
Since I actually had to go to St. Alban's, I had to get the Q4 next. It just pulled out of layover near the bus bays when we got there, so all I had to do was to run ahead and catch the bus. It's #9060, with no A/C. It fills quickly (after a Q85 pulls in ahead of us).
Also an uneventful trip, save for traffic turning nonsense at Guy Brewer Blvd. The trip is fast, with arrival at St. Alban's (station) at around 8 PM. I stop by at a nearby church (St. Catherine's of Sienna, if you need to know), to drop in on a graduation party that was still an hour away.
It's around 8:10 PM. I need to get to Junior's at Dekalb before it closes. I figure that I could take the next train from St. Alban's to Brooklyn, with only a few blocks walk from Flatbush Av. Terminal. I check the schedule, and it indicates that the next City-bound train comes at 9:29 PM (Trick of fate to come, for "LIAR" commuters on this board).
Obviously disgusted, I go to wait for the next Q4 back to Jamaica Center. I notice (from Linden Blvd. below) that the station platform is half torn away, with some sort of work motor on the City-bound (Trk 1) track. By now it's 8:20. A westbound train pulls in blowing the horns for the workers on the track. I figure that its moving slow just because of the workers. I didn't notice that two cars (of the 6-8 car train) had platformed, with the second car having both of it doors open. Not for a couple of seconds at least. When I did notice people on the platform, I did a bee-line for the train, slipping and tripping up the poorly maintained stairs. Of course, I was too late; the train started pulling out at approx. 10 mph. I asked the just-detrained passengers if the train was heading for Bklyn; when they said yes, I did a 4 ft. vertical (I had actually wanted to yell "NOOOOO!" so loud that I could be heard on Madison Av. Has anyone else on this board ever experienced this and the feeling that follows?)
Dejected, I walk back downstairs. The Q4 (which was supposed to show at 2017 hrs) finally appears, and its almost 2025 hrs. It's #4570. I figure it's better than nothing. Well it was: this was one of those rare GMCs the TA has whose 6v92 still moves the bus. Thus, I get back to Jamaica Center at around 8:30 PM. Needing to get to Junior's in short order, I decide whether to take my chances with either the E to Queens Plz. with a transfer to the G for Fulton, the J (was that shuttle bus GO in effect yet?), or to walk to Sutphin for the next LIRR for Brooklyn? In the end, I decide to walk.
When I get to Sutphin, I see that the next train for Flatbush comes at 8:51PM. Its 8:40 PM at this time, so I get tickets from the machine (City Zone, right?) First train to pull in was the 8:46 "semi-express" to Penn Station, track 2. Then the 8:51, but again to Penn, and this time on track 1. I saw that HALL gave it priority over the 8:51 to Brooklyn. Nonetheless, the Brooklyn-bound local comes in on 2, with the front two cars dark but pressed into service.
(Oh and BTW, I saw while walking that the Airtain offices are now on Archer Av near Sutphin, and that the Jamaica terminal continues to take shape, with a huge space between track 3 and 4. Space for support pillars for the crossover, perhaps? And are those offices the backup for the offices at WTC?)
I'm in front, so that I can have a quick exit at Flatbush and to see the line from the bird's eye view. I have a few words with the engineer about when we get to Flatbush, where I'm going, and how I'm going to get back to the Bronx with the #2 still running local. After getting past the interlocking on the west side of Jamaica station he gets the train to take off into the Atlanic Av. tunnel, and I mean TAKE OFF! (Those who commented previously on the 70 MPH thru the tunnel, ya'll weren't kidding!)
I notice and abandoned station on the right hand side just inside the tunnel, and also notice how East New York station is actually at street level on Altantic.
Anyway, later on, after getting cheescakes from Jr's, I try to see if I can get to Union Square before 10. It's 9:30 by then, and I hope to get the Q as the quick way over. Getting down to Dekalb, I see a Q take the bypass, and then find that there's GO in effect. No choice but to take the N then. Next N comes around a minute or two later. Slants. I get up front. I see why they've been rerouting the N all the time: track rehab (the line needed it, with all the curves and everything). When reaching Rector St., I gear myself for the bypass of Cortland, which will be the first time since before (during, and after) 9/11 that I've gone thru the station and area by subway. Upon entering Cortland, I give a sign of the cross for all those who never got out alive and are still down there; I then see how the entrance to what would have been the lobby from the downtown platform was all boarded up. Sad. Very sad.
On the #6 riding home, at 59th street, the announcement is made for transfers to the "4, 5, N, and R trains." A little problem: the N was terminating at 57th, and I didn't think then that the R was even running save for the shuttle section in Brooklyn.
I make it back to Parkchester by 10:30, completing the round robin. Four boroughs, with I-don't-know-how-many-miles traveled.
The N is terminating at 59/Lex this weekend. The R is running between Continental and Canal via 63rd. But the automated R-142 announcements don't know about GO's anyway (they don't even know about any of the service changes over the past year).
Did you notice if the Q was taking the bypass in both directions? Two weekends ago it was running local on 4th Avenue and stopping at DeKalb in both directions.
The J shuttle bus GO starts next weekend. This weekend the only GO is express service from Broadway Junction (Eastern Parkway) to Marcy. Check the GO's online before you leave next time!
Correction: the R is running between Continental and 95th via 63rd this weekend. It's only split in two (Continental to Canal and 59th to 95th) when the N is running over the bridge, which it isn't this weekend.
thoses automated annouments were a waste of money. Just put in a jack and have the C/R wear a microphone that near the mouth. Not the smelly one you have to kiss to be heard.
I think automated announcements are a very good idea as long as they're designed and implemented well. I don't see why they couldn't be programmed each week for the upcoming GO's on all lines, along with appropriate announcements. (For instance, on the 2 at Fulton this weekend, it might have been nice to mention the uptown F.) But given what we've all seen and heard over the past year, I can barely imagine a worse design, and I'm more than a little bit annoyed that we New Yorkers have spent a lot of money to get blatantly incorrect information seemingly every time the train opens its mouth.
Q trains are bypassing DeKalb Avenue, over most of the day at least (don't know about midnights).
David
I can vouch for that. I had the rare opportunity of going through the bypass at the railfan window on an R-40 this afternoon.
But why? This weekend all (or most) Q trains were bypassing. Two weeks ago they were all stopping at DeKalb and running local. The week before that I'm told they were bypassing in one direction but not the other. Why the changes from week to week? I'll grant that visibility isn't all that great from the bypass track to the platforms, but I didn't see any platform or track work at DeKalb that would necessitate closing the wall tracks.
"Check the GO's online before you leave next time!"
Point taken.
And if you're anything like me, you'll go out of your way to run into them, not to avoid them.
Yes, how would you do it? Get rid of the extra passageways? Improve lighting? Now's your chance to share what you think about the MTA's plan to rehab Ts and how you may like to improve on it.
Kick out Disney, bring back the hookers. :)
Extra passage was are always fun. Esspecially if they have their original tile intact (old tile that is being covered up on the broadway local stations). I'am a mole person so I always like passage ways. If you wan't passage way, try montreals subway. I can walk between 4 different station on the same line all underground!
Extra passage ways are always fun. Esspecially if they have their original tile intact (old tile that is being covered up on the broadway local stations). I'am a mole person so I always like passage ways. If you wan't passage way, try montreals subway. I can walk between 4 different station on the same line all underground!
If you wan't passage way, try montreals subway. I can walk between 4 different station on the same line all underground!
The only thing like that I can think of anywhere else is in Paris:
Saint Lazare (3,12,13)
Haussmann - Saint Lazare (RER E)
Havre - Caumartin (3,9)
Auber (RER A)
Opéra (3,7,8)
All linked by passageways.
Even that only goes 3 stations along Ligne 3.
Not much. I honestly like what they've done so far a lot. The 41st Street IRT passageway has been opened up into a full mezzanine and the IRT platforms are already much more pleasant than they were two years ago.
There are three related changes I'd like to see. First, I'd like to see the two ramp complexes eliminated and replaced with escalators. Yes, more escalators -- the existing ones go straight between the 7 platform and the upper mezzanine; the new ones would go between the lower mezzanine and the upper mezzanine. Second, I'd extend the lower mezzanine eastward (now that we don't need to worry about the ramps there) under the BMT platforms and install new staircases there, so passengers transferring between the BMT and the IND or Flushing line don't need to use the upper mezzanine at all. (I believe the second phase of the rehab will be installing such staircases, but only to the SB BMT platform.) Third, I'd extend the lower mezzanine even further, to a fare control area just east of Broadway with long escalators running directly up to 41st Street, probably about halfway between Broadway and 6th. If I'm feeling really ambitious, I'd connect the mezzanine all the way through to the IND at 6th, and we'd end up with the only station complex served twice by the same subway line.
But that all costs money.
I wouldn't say that this is impossible. Let's say for the sake of argument that the Real Estate Board, etc. argues that it is too difficult to bring another tunnel and line into Lower Manhattan, and that the subways already have the (under-utilited) Montigue, the Jorolemon, and the Clark tunnels to this area. Is there any scenario under which losing the Cranberry could be something other than a race and class ripoff?
The only thing I can think of is a replacement tunnel and other connections for the subway, which would provide greater or equal service and greater or equal protection from the eventual loss of the Manhatattan Bridge to subway service.
The new tunnel could branch off from the 8th Avenue express tracks (would have to be the express) south of Canal, go across Worth Street (the old Second System idea), cross the river at Catherine Street and hook back into the A/C tracks in Brooklyn. You'd have to build the Rutgers-DeKalb connection as well, and perhaps do a "flip" so that the Rutgers Tunnel serves the express, the Manhattan Bridge the local.
That way, Brooklyn would still have three tunnels -- two express to Midtown, one local to Downtown, regardless of the future of the bridge. If the Lawrence-Jay pedestrian connection were built, it would be easy to change among those options.
Forget About bringing the LIRR Atlantic line to Manhattan.
I say, shut down that branch and give it back to the city for transit use.
LIRR downtown service should ride on the Montauk Branch, and then run SOUTH-WEST under the River to Avenue C and follow that around to the WTC.
Advantages:
1) New River Crossing will not add to lower manhattan congestion.
2) Fewer existing subway lines to interact with.
3) Ability to run markedly higher tph than is possible on the Atlantic.
4) Through service with NJT... (NJT Access to Sunnyside)
5) Through Service to and between LaGuardia and Newark Airports
LIRR/NJT WTC Station
Elias
That's an interesting concept.
When I was asked at City Planning awhile ago, I came up with a similar idea. It was based on coming up with ways to finance things, and on ideas going around subtalk three or four years ago.
It involved a super-express line from Secaucus Transfer in the Meadowlands, to stations at 10th Avenue, Times Square and Grand Central (on say 45th Street) in Midtown, then down Second Avenue on express tracks for that line to station(s) in Lower Manhattan, then through to Brooklyn in a new tunnel and out to Jamaica on the Atlantic Branch.
The idea is that with one easy change of trains, LIRR riders could get to Lower Manhattan, MetroNorth riders could get to Lower Manhattan, and New Jersey riders could get to Grand Central, all at high speeds on a sem-exclusive suburban train. It would be funded by the commuter tax, and a double fare for those not transferring from the commuter railroads. All these lines want a "one seat ride" to everywhere. This would provide a one- or two-seat ride to just about everywhere.
The rest of the idea had the Second Avenue line (ie. the local) built to FRA standards, charging a double fare, and integrated with the express and the commuter railroads as a premium service, rather than with the subway. On Subtalk, I called it the Snobway, but at City Planning I called it the RER, like the one in Paris.
I'd provide maps, but that is beyond my expertise.
We all know that the Cranberry tunnel will never be turned over to the LIRR. What they really want is a new tunnel for the LIRR into lower Manhattan, which of course will never be built for economic snd political reasons. The assumption here is that financial services firms can't wait to return to downtown, and that the "connector" is needed to bring in Long Islanders who also can't wait to return to downtown. That assumption is being proved false by the large number of firms that have relocated to Midtown and New Jersey.
"That assumption is being proved false by the large number of firms that have relocated to Midtown and New Jersey."
Hey, they had to go *somewhere*
and that *somewhere* would naturally require a long term lease.
But buildting this stuff in downtown is a long term deal anyway.
Now then, suppose they *did* move to New Joisey...
Commuters from Long Island still would need to get there, and what better way than LIRR trains running all the way into New Jersey.
This connection seems to be a better and better sort of an idea.
Additonaly with NJT trains carrying people directly to WTC, much of the PATH business becomes redundant. *That* service can be refocused to large park-and-ride facilities in New Jersey.
Elias
Getting them to Jersey is done better by the long-contemplated, long-unbuilt Bay Ridge branch tunnel across the harbor. They want this for freight, but passenger service, I think, would be more productive.
Elias is taken with Avenue C as a route for rail passengers into Lower Manhattan. So am I. My own view is to fill the East River a bit, 300 feet or so, and bring down some rail and subway lines from The Bronx, with some fancy interconnecting at the LIRR tubes (an underground replacement for the FDR is also involved). The rail line would go into Delancy/Kenmare/Centre St line, into Chambers St. The Broad-Nassau line would be diverted via Park Row and E B'way to some resolution out into Williamsburgh, maybe via the W Bridge, better via a new tube.
If you build such a thing, bringing down a couple of super-express subway lines is also sensible. Were you to bring super-express lines from the Bronx to a Midtown crosstown line and to a Downtown line, the 2nd Ave would not really need to go Downtown, and no one would care that's it's half built as a two-track system.
Getting them to Jersey is done better by the long-contemplated, long-unbuilt Bay Ridge branch tunnel across the harbor. They want this for freight, but passenger service, I think, would be more productive.
I think there is also a need for the freight tunnel though. However, why can't they build the tunnel similar the 63rd St tunnel...one level for the freight, and one level for the passengers. As for passengers, I believe it would be a very important tunnel to allow Brooklyn and LIRR passengers direct service to NEw Jersey. Freight should not be forgotten though. If the tunnel is built for commuter rail, the freight trains could share the tracks with the freight, so only a two track, one level tunnel would be needed. However, if it was to be for subway, you would need two levels or one level with three tracks.
My plan put four tracks across both rivers, Rush hour would have two lines for LIRR and two lines for NJT with a capacity far in excess of what Railroads would require.
Off peek each would only run to WTC and the other lines are free for freight movements. I'd contract that out to the New York & Atlantic rather than let CSX or NS into the tunnel. Heck they would't want to bother with electric Locomotives anyway, and they don't have any trackage on Long Island.
This route also makes a more direct connection to the Hell Gate Bridge.
Elias (Pushing for Progress!)
I think there is also a need for the freight tunnel though. However, why can't they build the tunnel similar the 63rd St tunnel...one level for the freight, and one level for the passengers.
Because the freight tunnel wants to go from Bay Ridge to Jersey City, while the passenger trains want to go from Meadowlands/Secaucus Transfer through midtown to downtown Brooklyn.
Two utterly different alignments. The 63rd Street LIRR tunnel level is at least within a mile or two of the LIRR Mainline and GCT, and that's two different routings carrying PASSENGERS. Any freight routing (from rail freight yard to rail freight yard) will go to/from utterly different places than any passenger routing.
"Because the freight tunnel wants to go from Bay Ridge to Jersey City,"
Who says they want to go to Bay Ridge? !!!
Some of them will want to go across the Hell Gate Bridge to CT.
Usimg My Routing they enter Long Island in the Sunnyside yard, and can go to the Bridge, or even to Bay Ridge faster than they could if the tunnel went to Bay Ridge directly. (Because you would have to turn or back your train from the portal to the riverside again.)
Yeah for My Plan!
Elias
Were you to bring super-express lines from the Bronx to a Midtown crosstown line and to a Downtown line, the 2nd Ave would not really need to go Downtown, and no one would care that's it's half built as a two-track system.
How quickly we forget that the very island of Manhattan has many residents of its own and that they are far more dependent on transit than the rest of the city. A two-track 2nd Avenue line would likely have insufficient capacity for its intra-Manhattan ridership alone.
My thoughts run to four super-express tracks from the Bronx, largely draining Mid- and Down-town bound passengers from the Lex. 125th/Lex trains would be greatly thinned of passengers. The Lex, plus the half-built two-track stubway would service East-side bound service from the UES.
I'm not saying this is what the 2nd Av subway should be, but if you could fill 150-300 feet outward into the East River, and bring four subway tracks under/over a replacement for the FDR, this would work.
The Lex, plus the half-built two-track stubway would service East-side bound service from the UES.
You obviously haven't seen the 6 train on the UES lately. The 2nd Avenue subway is needed primarily for the relief it will offer in Manhattan. Benefits to the Bronx are almost incidental.
Manhattan has some of the most densely populated neighborhoods in the country. They depend on a dense transit network.
So, David. Besmear yourself with blue woad and do battle with the MTA. It would help if New York had a female warrior a la Boadicea, but we don't, so just do the blue woad.
My East River fill project equates to a six track 2nd Ave subway.
"I'd provide maps, but that is beyond my expertise."
The maps that I make are easy.
I use Microsoft Streets and Trips 2002. They provide the maps, you can zoom in and out all you like. You can draw directly on the map, and save it, (as a map drawing, which unfortunately cannot actually display graphics outside of the S+T2002 program) You can select an area of your map and cut and paste it to your photo program and make a JPG of it there. I like making .GIFs out of them, because of the limited number of colors and so on, it makes a smaller file.
Try it, you will like it if you like drawing subway maps.
Elias
I kind of like your NYC 2020 vision. I only wish that the MTA would spend that kind of money to construct new lines.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Joralemon and Clark Street Tunnels are under-utilized. The lines using those tunnels can get pretty packed during rush hours in the peak direction. Montague by comparison isn't heavily used.
Your idea to bring the LIRR into lower Manhattan is a good one. Unfortunately, I don't think the city will ever build a LIRR lower Manhattan branch, thanks to politics.
I've got a couple of questions. What was the last date of Myrtle Ave. EL operations and what were the "Q" car numbers and the times of the last intervals operated? Also, how many excursions took place after the last day of regular service and what were their car numbers?
I will appreciate any and all information.
Just to get you going, the Myrtle was one of my FAVORITE "out of borough" experiences (Bronx boy) and as far as I could tell, the Q's were out there doing their thing right up to the end ... I *think* it was 1967 ... or somewhere in there, but those bad boys rocked and rolled and sat "Q"uietly at the station for open and closeup right to the end. What always made me conscious of the Q's was that unlike my favorite R1/9's, the compressors weren't kicking in every ten seconds. :)
I think it was 1969.
I think you are right.
The same weekend the Mets were squaring off against the Braves in the very first NLCS.
Bob: The last revenue train left Metropolitan Avenue at 11:38PM on October 3 and Bridge-Jay Streets at 12:13AM on October 4.It arrived back at Metropolitan Avenue at 12:43AM. The consist was (N)1616ABC and 1619CBA. It was followed by an empty back-up train consisting of 1610CBA and 1613ABC.
There were two post-abandonement fantrips. One on Saturday October 4 for the National ERA and one on Sunday, October 5 for the Trolley Museum of New York. The consists on both fantrips was 1616CBA and 1629 ABC.
I understand that a work train consisting of one or more IRT Lo-VM's ran on the el after closure to dismantle signals. This information comes from the late Roger Arcara. If it is correct it may have been the only time that steel cars,IRT Lo-V's no less ran on the Myrtle Avenue El south of Broadway.
Best Wishes
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hi LarryRedbirdR33,
Thank you for the wealth of information concerning the "Q" cars on the Myrtle Avenue Line. I sincerely appreciate the details on the "Q" cars last intervals.
Yours truly,
Bklynsubwaybob
Bob: Glad to help.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>The consist was (N)1616ABC and 1619CBA. It was followed by an empty back-up train consisting of 1610CBA and 1613ABC<<
And I rode that last train out of Bridge-Jay Sts. Glad you cleared up that backup train. I saw it heading south and was wondering if that was the last train.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have to tell you a little more about that last trip on Mysrtle. I worked the line [by vacation relief bid] the last week or two it was in service. I was on one of the last trains as a motorman. The very last train returningin service had an old time conductor [John?]Cawley and a veteran motorman whose name escapes me. The regular crew scheduled for that run, can't remember the motorman [Griffin?] but Conducor Willie Paskewicz; Willie ws howling he was goig to be on the last train and refused to give up a scheduled trip [any other time a dop-out on the last trip would have been extremely desirable]. So the scheduled crew followed he last train in ervice, running light. The hand-picked old timers would be on the last revenue train hook or by crook. I had the 1616 set a cople of times that week and as it was a good set recommended it for the fantrips...I had the Saturday [Oct 4 I think] fantrip, oe Lyone had the Sunday one. They did use the 1616 set with was it the World's Fair color 1622...I can't recall. Excellent train.Back to the last night of service on my last run a controller didn't drop ou fast enough goig over the gap approachig Vanderbilt met bound and we blew a tractio motor...brought it into met with one live car [as most know the center car of the three was a trailer]. Think but not sure it was 1613. I don't have it written down and ithas beenalmost 33 yers, ccan't remember everythng. Anyone remember the 10 MPH slow order the last few days going past Ft. Greene Park? A truck hit the pillar and that section had to be shored up. Luckily the whole line wasn't shut down right then. Needless to say I'm happy to have served on the Q cars for part of my career; as a 12 year old id on 3rd Ave. in 1955 I'd never have dreamed I'dgrow up {did I really} to run them...off and on for two years. Lucky me. Too bed the oorigial IRT's weren't around another 10 years.
Hi Big Ed,
I lived on Adelphi St., just two blocks from Vanderbilt Ave. station. I rode the "Q" all my life especially when I attended Eastern District High School. I started working for the TA in August of 1970. Just missed my opportunity to work on the cars I loved so much. Anyhow, did you remember a Motorman by the name of Jimmy Laughin (I'm not sure I spelled his name correctly). I used to ride his train all the time, a really nice guy. When I would have occasion to be walking on my block towards Myrtle Av. he would wave to me. His C/R was an old timer by the name of Joe. I don't remember his last name. I also remember a C/R by the name of Barney. Another nice guy. When I became a C/R in 1973 we worked together on the Canarsie Line. I trust you probably knew Sambucini, a Motorman in the Eastern and Southern Divisions.
Let me know if you knew any of these guys. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Bob
Glad you had a chance to ride and railfan the Q's even if you didn't get to work them. The Conductor Joe you mentioned...wonder if tht was Cawley's name. He was one of thefew people left from when I started riding there in 1955. So were M/M Ed Lenihan and Tommy Byers. The only Barney I remember was therein my early days, Barney Dick who use to sell recycled watches. I remember Sambucini very well...went by his Italian first name, Enrico, sometimes called Sam. I remember him around Stilwell all the time.I was happy to be a part of things on that line to say the least. E-mail me if you need more info.
Thanks Big Ed for the information. Much appreciated. You didn't mention anything about a M/M by the name of Jimmy Laughin or maybe it was spelled Lafin. He was a real gentleman. When I graduated Sacred Heart School (grammar school) in 1963 I had a number of C/Rs and M/Ms sign my graduation book. The next time I post I will include their names to see if you know any of them. Oh, by the way, Sambucini is a real good friend of mine right to this very day. When he was a union rep in the UMD he helped me tremendously when I was wrongfully charged with incompetence and negligence involving an R-46 collision in Coney Island Yard back in Feb of 1977. He was able to prove through photographs and documentation that the collision was caused by computer error and not human error. A finer person would be extremely difficult to find. He'll always be #1 in my book.
Sincerely,
Bklnsubwaybob
Hi Big Ed,
I'm back again. I found my graduation signature book. I've found a few names that I'll pass on to you to see if you remember any of them. Motorman Albert Luken, a M/M by the name of Tom, could be Byers, M/M Frank Carlino, C/R Wm. Paskowitz also signed my book. He's the C/R that made the last trip 'lite'. Also, M/M J. Cartin. The "Q" cars were by far my favorites. I rode as much as I could when I could. And at 15 cents a ride, it was a bargain at any price.
My best to you,
Bklynsubwaybob
The only name I remember was Willie (though it was spelled Paskewicz, Polish style, but its been a long time.) I worked with him a few times. He worked thelast PM job as I recall rported 5:43 PM
And too bad their roofs had to be chopped in order to get to CIY.
Me again..guy's I'm sorry for all the typos on the original post..I tried but couldn't get back in where I could correct them but hope the story was worth the struggle.
Ed: It was a great story anyway. I missed the last run on the Myrtle Avenue line since I was in South Dakota with the Air Force. I did make it back a few weeks later for the last days of the old cars on the 3 Avenue El.
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
Hi Larry,
Where you, per chance, an employee of the TA? I worked for the TA in the capacity of Cars and Shops Shop Clerk, C/R, Motorman, Bus Operator (temporarily for two years at Fifth Ave. and Ulmer Park; allegedly a money saving move by the TA) back to Motorman and finally retiring as a Motorman Instructor (always hated the alledged non-sexist TA titles such as Motor Instructor or Train Service Supervisor or the like) I had a great career and plenty of stories to go with it. Just a little of myself.
Take care,
Bob
Bob: I work for Metro-North and before that Conrail. I started out as a towerman and later was a ticket agent. I also worked in the Command Center for several years. I grew up in NYC and spent many hours on the subways during the sixties. (I still spend many hours on the subway). My favorite rapid transit railroads are the IRT and PATH followed by the BMT (Don't tell #3 1/2 86 Street Fred.),and the IND.
I agree with you about these unisex titles. In the old days a motorman was a motorman and that meant something. Nowadays the person is a train operator, does that mean he places phone calls from various station. What about this operator nonsense for the buses? A surgeon operates, a driver drives.
AH" for the good old days when we called a spade, a spade.
Best Wishes,RedbirdR33
PS I can't e-mail you directly since my computer won't let me but my e-mail address is
RedbirdR33 @ hotmail.com
A conductor is still a conductor, right?
Steve: A conductor is still a conductor weither or not he works for the IRT or the New York Philharmonic.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I can just imagine Leonard Bernstein perched on the step plates of a couple of R-1/9s or R-10s...:-)
Leonard Bernstein woulda been a friggin' 12-9! You can't be waving a stick when a train lurches, lest ye wanna be UNDER it. You needed BOTH hands for the grabirons. :)
Ah, but Lennie didn't always use a baton. He started to do so after hurting his back once.
He may have been a great conductor, but could he give two buzzes with both hands tied behind his back? I think not. :)
Lennie would have done a swivel hip and used his feet.:-)
>>> AH" for the good old days when we called a spade, a spade <<<
Those were not necessarily the good old days if you were not a good old boy.
Tom
In the old days a motorman was a motorman and that meant something. Nowadays the person is a train operator, does that mean he places phone calls from various station. What about this operator nonsense for the buses? A surgeon operates, a driver drives.
AH" for the good old days when we called a spade, a spade.
Hell yes! It's so much more natural saying driver, engineer or motorman than all this "Train Operator" and "Bus Operator" stuff... Even someone at the MTA thinks this:
"Make sure that you're standing next to a bus stop sign where the bus driver can see you."
(From the info on Long Island Bus - http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/libus/libinfo.htm)
Checking out this thread I had to post a picture of my souvenir from that day, 10/3/69. It wasn't the last train, it was much earlier in the afternoon but it was the last day. Everyone was taking souvenirs from the Q-cars, such as the last real leather straps. The trains probably were pretty bare late at night. As I was getting off I grabbed one of the wicker seats. I took it home on the "J" train, the LIRR to Hempstead, then the Hempstead Bus Comp bus (pre MSBA) to East Meadow. It was rush hour but at least I had a seat the whole way home. Sorry about the quality of the pic, I don't have a $1,000 digital, it was taken with a 15 year old poloroid 600!!! Click here to see it
P.S. I made it a web page so I could link it, angelfire doesn't allow remote loading so I couldn't link just the image.
What was assigned to the F line before the R-46s?
R44s and R38s
nevermind the preceding post
R38s i think
Prior to the R46's arrival in 1976, the F was made up of R38's, R40's, R32's and during rush hours, R6's.
how could i have forgotten the slants??????
There were some R40M as well.
Also lower-number (1300,low-1400) R-7 along with the R-6.
wayne
IIRC, for the R40M, the 4450 to 4499 group were on the E/F and the 4501 to 4549 group were on the EE/GG mostly.
I don't remember R38s on the "E" & "F" in 1976. I definately know that they operated on the "AA" & "B" at that time. Also, the R44s were definately on the "E" & "F"
R38s ran the F a while back ago when they first came out. I saw a pic of one in the museum not to mention the NYC SUBWAY CARS book. Also R38s Ran the E after september 11th when C train was suspended. PITKIN sent Jamaica R38s and i do remember watching a R38 pull off from UNION TURNPIKE SAYING E TO JAMAICA CENTER!!! this happens just about everytime the C is suspended. the first time was when the C was out for a month and the E couldnt go to WTC because of that switch being replaced. they sent R38s to the E line and when september 11th happened and the few days after when E went to euclid, there were R38s on the E again.
I know that the R38s ran on the "E" and "F" when they first arrived in NY, but I was talking about the year 1976. Anyway, thank you for the information about what happened after 9/11. It is really appreciated. I wonder if anybody was able to get any pictures of the 38s on the "E" AFTER 9/11.
I know that when the "C" service was reinstated after the 9/11 incident, phase two R32s (the ones that whistle) were operating on the "A" and the "C".
Both the R-38s and slant R-40s made their debut on the E and F lines. IIRC the R-38s were supposed to go to the D initially, but were pressed into service on the E and F lines in August of 1966 when the Jamaica Yard Crisis hit.
I'm going on what I've heard on here and pics on this website from the time in question. I was just 4 in '76 and outside the J train, I have no experience or memory of anything else.
dont forget the R44. The R 32 wernt regulars on the F per say like they were on the D,B and N lines,and by then the N was mostly R46.Didnt the F lose their R40's to the A then?
R40's, R44's, R10's in 1980/81, R32's, R38's.
R68's were also assigned to the F for a time in the late 1980's.
R46, R68, R40S, R38, R32 and Pre-War R Units.
Unless I'm wrong, the F did have some R44's before they were moved to the A and D.
When the R44's were new, they were split 3 ways: a bunch for Queens, a bunch for the A and a bunch for the D. When the R46's came out the Queens R44's were split between the A and D. R44's returned to Queens when the R46's were put on restricted duty due to the truck fiasco. Eventually, some R46 cars got R44 trucks temporarily, while virtually all the R44's were put into storage due to reliability problems. Due to a nasty derailment at Kings Hwy (Brighton) in which an R44 car almost knocked down the old tower, the R44's were pulled off the D permanently. Brighton residents along E.16th St. all along bitched about the cars claiming they caused excessive vibrations. The Kings Hwy incident and the restricting of R46's came around the same time.
If anyone is interested the split of the R44 fleet was as follows:
ALL FORMER #s:
100-259 for QUEENS ("F" and "E" secondary)
260-335 for the "D".
336-399 for the "A".
wayne
Yep, I remember my first ride on an R-44, August 1972 on the F out of CI, lead car 160.
BTW, does anyone remember when some R-44s had carpeting? I recall riding one on the D at Christmastime in 1973. Seems this was short-lived--I was living in Illinois at the time, when I came back to NY the next summer, the carpet was gone.
There was one 8 car train built with carpeting. I don't have the car numbers, but I remember riding it on the D. I don't think it lasted too long.
IIRC that idea-one carpeted train of R44..'s was another of Mayor Lindsay's silly ideas. Carpeting on a subway train? NYC in the 1970's? Even the biggest bleeding heart mayor should have known better. I never did catch a trip on it.
I was on the MTA's website when I stumbled on a plan to extend th 42 street S to either Jamaica or Lower manhatthan. If you had a say in this where would it go? Personally I would like to see some extra subway service around Trinity place.
For more info heres the webpage http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/lmas/problemsandconepts.html
Well there's one thing that I do know. If you extended the line, you couldn't call it a shuttle anymore.
That would be a tough one, given it would have to in some way run through the mezzanine level of the Grand Central stop (if you re-established the connection to the No. 6 local tracks on Park Ave. South you might be able to get away with only running the uptown track through the southern end of the mezzanine level, but that would still block of direct mezz access to the shuttle's 42nd St. platform and require a stairs/escallator and ADA-required elevator to connect the platform with the rest of the Grand Central stop.
Oh, and the shuttle platform would have to be lengthened about 300 feet at the west end of the Grand Central stop and the east end at Times Square to handle 10 car trains to justify any such connection to the rest of the IRT system.
Maybe I'm not being creative enough, but isn't the point of the shuttle to quickly transport people between two points, like GCT and TS? If it had a whole route to do, it would be much less efficient at its job.
It might make sense to extend the shuttle out to meet the 2nd Ave subway, if one ever exists.
Start digging for the north part of the 2nd ave sub. Then start talking!
One of the stubway alternatives is to terminate the 2nd Ave as a west-turning stub on 42nd St., as close into to GCT as possible, with tranfers to the 4/5/6/7/S
Well, that's one step in rebuilding the 42nd St. corridor.
Read it again (I just read it). It mentions the possibility of operating a NEW "shuttle" service between Grand Central and lower Manhattan. It says NOTHING about the existing 42nd Street Shuttle.
David
LIRR Atlantic Branch Conversion to Rapid Transit.
This is also listed in that link. I don't see the point to this. Doesn't the LIRR Atlantic branch run almost parallel to the AC Fulton subway? Why would they need two rapid transit lines right next to each other? I could understand if they wanted to convert the Montauk branch to rapid transit, because it would serve a whole area not currently served by rail. What am I missing here?
(LIRR Atlantic Branch Conversion to Rapid Transit. This is also listed in that link. I don't see the point to this. Doesn't the LIRR Atlantic branch run almost parallel to the AC Fulton subway?)
Most people agree there is no point to this -- except to create a "super-express" to cut commute times for those further out.
"Most people agree there is no point to this -- except to create a "super-express" to cut commute times for those further out. "
Correct. You cannot extend or buiod more subway lines further out into Queens, since the present lines, trunk lines, and crossings are running at overcapacity now.
Three, four, maybe more lines could join this ROW at Jamaica Center or Broadway Junction, and then run non-stop to Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan. (OUtlying lines have a much lower tph since it is also a lower population density area.
Elias
My own thoughts are to flatten the East New York area (Vermont to
Chauncy, Atlantic to the cemetery), and redevelop it as something other than the slummy semi-industrial area it is. I'd realign all the lines into one whopping big, exquisitely logical, wonderfully convenient station. The LIRR would terminate here, with the remainder of the Atlantic Av r.o.w. being converted to super-express subway service (serviced by a new tube into Manhattan).
My own thoughts are to flatten the East New York area (Vermont to
Chauncy, Atlantic to the cemetery), and redevelop it as something other than the slummy semi-industrial area it is.
We've seen how well grandiose urban renewal projects turn out in NYC. Think Arverne and Edgemere.
I keep them in the back of my head. What got flattened on the Rockaway, tho', was mostly beach shack, very primitive one-story stuff that got winterized.
In the back of my head, I want to move the City Council out to ENY junction. Return those heritage city-owned-buidlings (e.g., the Sun Building) to the tax rolls, and move the parasitical City Council and their aides out to East New York.
You're a thoughtful fellow, aren't you?...What about the people who live there now?
They are mostly poor. They mostly don't vote. They mostly don't care. As for those who do care, do vote and may be poor, well, you get very nice to them. It's politics.
Perhaps they're poor and perhaps they don't vote, but I assure you that they care. We all see what happened to Robert Moses when he used that tactic a few too many times.
Exactly. But they don't usually vote.
If the purpose is to server outlying areas, then I would think commuter rail would make more sense than subway. The way I see it is subway for dense city space, Commuter rail for more distant suburbs. Maybe some of this land falls in a grey area, but it still doesn't make much sense to me. I think a downtown rail terminal that both LIRR and NJT use would be great, if they dig their own tunnels and use their own track. Maybe on the old WTC site they should rebuild the old Penn Station. That is not nearly as nutty as some of these ideas.
LIRR Atlantic Branch Conversion to Rapid Transit.
This is also listed in that link. I don't see the point to this. Doesn't the LIRR Atlantic branch run almost parallel to the AC Fulton subway? Why would they need two rapid transit lines right next to each other? I could understand if they wanted to convert the Montauk branch to rapid transit, because it would serve a whole area not currently served by rail. What am I missing here?
Two things: Some people in LIRR management are rumored to want to abandon service on the Atlantic Branch. Some people think that it would be nice to screw the hicks from the sticks by stealing their commuter line and turning it into a NYC Transit line providing city residents with an express ride at subway prices.
All told, not a great idea, IMHO. If we take away their commuter trains, even more of them will clog our streets with their cars.
A set of R-33's are inside a secured area of the NYPD's Special Forces & Aviation Division at Floyd Bennett Field.
Mr.T, Hartbus Al, heypaul and I saw them at a distance yesterday during our journey over to the Bus Rodeo.
However, with the weather being so nice I biked out to Floyd Bennett earlier today where I met up with heypaul and we were able to get a closer look at the Redbirds, as well as the 'Flying Fishbowl'. See 'Other Side of the Tracks' for more details.
Apparently, the cars are being used as part of Anti-terrorist training.
Yeppppp!
Saw all of that while I was at the Bus Roadeo. I got pictures. To see them, e-mail me at carlwal@hotmail.com and I will be glad to send them to all who want to see...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT (where those cars once ran)
Does anyone have access to (or know about) any magnetic levitation lines anywhere in the U.S.? (or elsewhere)
See MAGLEV for Old Dominion University thread.
Railfan Pete,
Shanghai China is building a TRANSRAPID line from downtown to its airport. Go to www.monorails.org and follow MAGLEV links for more info.
Are there construction pictures of progress of restoring subway station at ground zero? last seen were of damage just after 9-11.
There are a few on Harry Beck's page
www.nycrail.com
did they reverse this policy because lately none of the c/rs and t/os have been wearing no vests.
t/o's and c/r's are no longer obligated to wear safety vests while operating their train in customer service.
t/o's and c/r's are no longer obligated to wear safety vests while operating their train in customer service.
Why the change? The vest policy was one of the rare bureaucratic decrees that actually made sense.
Why did it make sense?
Peace,
ANDEE
Helps allow people to recognize crewmembers. Also increases safety when they have to walk the tracks (in the event of a cord pulling or just going thru the yard).
We still wear it on the track or in yards just not opertaing in revenue service. You are supposed to wear it when walking the 10 ft from the dispatchers office to the cab though.
We do have uniforms for visability and with the vests supervisors had a hard time sneaking up on us.
It's June they are getting uncomfortable. The uniform contract is up anyway so they can add a reflective stripe to the next round of jackets and hats
hehe, in London, all tube personnel wear neon greet reflective jackets. As do the police and sanitation men and airport workers and firefighters and traffic men and construction workers....
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
I would also add you summers are a quite a bit more mild than ours are.
UM, if you can't recognize crew members that are actually operating a train without a safety vest, one wonders why that addition would help?
Birds are attracted to shiny objects, maybe geese are attracted to bright reflective vests?
Why did it make sense?
Peace,
ANDEE
"The vest policy was one of the rare bureaucratic decrees that actually made sense."
Hey, who are you, a Vest Maker?
did they reverse this policy because lately none of the c/rs and t/os have been wearing no vests.
If they're still wearing vests, then what policy was reversed?
They're not wearing vests while on the trains. That's the change in policy. If a crewmember has to leave the train (to go to the roadbed, for example), he or she has to put on the vest.
David
You always had to wear a vest if you had to go down on the ground, that was in the rule book.
Methinks he was picking on the double negative.
Maybe the TA figured out how totally illogical the original rule was. After all, if a t/o or c/r has to wear a safety vest at all times while on duty, then what is the purpose of a uniform? Furthermore, the TA instructs to all the importance of a clean uniform. That plastic safety vest gets mighty dirty in a hurry and there is no way to wash it, it has to be replaced.
The vest policy was changed due to a letter written by a shop steward. It brought up a lot of safety concerns such as the vest getting caught when crossing from cab to cab.(happened to me a couple of times and it was un nerving)And the fact it was a pull-choking hazard while c/r had to observe platforms. Th official word is we still have to wear them when we exit the cab ,but that was thrown in just so it looked like the ta brass won.
As for the vest making the crews more visible.that is not a problem.I was going to work one day and decided to take a nap i guy WOKE ME UP SAID "IM SORRY BUT COULD YOU TELL ME HOW TO GET TOO....." I was so mad but end up helping him out anyway.
The issue of the vest making crews more visible seems silly to me. That is the function of a uniform. If the current uniform is not performing that function, then for goodness' sake switch to one that does.
Mvh Tim, who always has to be careful how he acts on the (Stockholm) subway while in uniform....
Does anyone have up-to-date information on the status of the PATH Class K amd MP-51 Fleet? The last information that I have is from July 1999, at that time there were still some 29 cars on the property, most of which were in work service. How many cars remain and have any been earmarked for museum collections? Thanks
Larry, RedbirdR33
I just found a great site for NJT photos. I looked across the "Pics Gallery" page and found some good photos of the ALP-46 and Comet V's, both interior photos.
Click on the corresponding link of your choice:
Engineer's control panel of the new ALP-46
Center Aisle of the Equipment Room of the new ALP-46
The New Comet V
Engineer's Control Panel of the New Comet V
Comet V Interior
New Improved Seating - Comet V
7221 and 7820 meet at SWIFT
Can anyone tell me where that last photo is? (Where SWIFT is?)
Explore the website at its domain. It is REALLY interesting for NJT fans.
SWIFT is the junction of the Kearney Connection and the NEC.
It looks like the Comet V's will have jump seats where the handicapped spaces are. This seems to be a good idea seat availability wise, but that empty area was always popular for baggage storage.
Thanks to Railfan Pete for providing a link to such great photos and a great website, http://www.ble373.org Thanks also to the Brotherhood!
I'm not certain of this, but I think I see taller windows in the photos of new Comet 5 and the LIRR M-7s. The shallow windows on Horizon cars, the MN Bombardiers, and other Comets have been a nuisance to anyone trying to look across the car and get a view of what is out the other side. Large windows help the passengers (in finding station names, etc.) and make the ride more enjoyable. Joe on the Babylon local.
Very interesting! Longitudal seating on a commuter rail car!
Some LIRR and Metro North M-whatever cars have one lone longitudinal seat near the door.
I also just remembered the LIRR has that in the handicapped area of the C3s.
But longitudinal seating is alien to many NJT riders, I wonder how they'll take it?
The rebuilt Comet 2's also have a small section of logitudinal seating. I worked those cars on the Raritan Valley Line, and the people who sat in those particular seats looked like "rookie" riders, while the "regulars" stayed with the forward-facing seats.
The MBTA Commuter Rail's BTC-1C (200-series) coaches (recently rebuilt) have logitudinal fold-up seats on both sides, both ends, to improve ADA capacity. Here's the commuter rail roster.
On that exterior shot of the Comet V in the shop building. Is the body stainless steel or aluminum like the older push pulls. It seems to shiny to be aluminum to me.
Bill "Newkirk"
On that exterior shot of the Comet V in the shop building. Is the body stainless steel or aluminum like the older push pulls. It seems to shiny to be aluminum to me.
They are indeed stainless steel.
"The Comet V body shells will be manufactured at ALSTOM's stainless steel plant in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and then shipped to the company's facility in Hornell, N.Y. for final assembly. Delivery of the cars is expected to begin in the third quarter of 2001, eighteen months after the notice to proceed."
Do Subways (NYCT, esp. the new ones) are the cars stainless steel?
NJT's contract was worth $232.9 million for up to 230 push-pull commuter cars. I think it can get expensive for thousands of subway cars!
Anyone else think that the interior of the Comet V has kind of a retro appearance? Something about the large windows and lack of loud colors. I like it, in any event.
Are the Comet Vs even in service? Where will they run?
No. Completed delivery is to be completed by 2003. Two of the cars were supposed to be testing on the NEC in August 2001. Guess they had it as a "covert operation." The Comet V's are most likely paired up with ALP-46's. There is a chance of them on the NEC but I don't know of the other lines.
"NJ TRANSIT is purchasing up to 230 push-pull rail cars, of which 200 are required to replace the Comet I fleet and certain Comet II cars. The remainder will allow for ridership growth stemming from the Secaucus Transfer, Montclair Connection and other services. At the request of Metro-North Commuter Railroad, up to 30 cars (5 push-pull control cars and 25 push-pull trailers) have been included in the option for Metro-North who will reimburse NJ TRANSIT for the cost of the cars.
Here is a little description about the Comet V:
130 new single-level push-pull commuter rail cars are being purchased with an option for an additional 100 cars for a total of 230 cars. This includes 50 cab control cars with 110 seats, 80 trailer cars with 118 seats and an option for 53 additional cab cars and 47 additional trailer cars.
The Comet V cars will be the first cars to be totally controlled by the IEEE 1473 network trainline. Cab cars, new electric and diesel locomotives will have fully integrated controls and diagnostics. All train systems diagnostics will have a wireless connection to the NJ TRANSIT maintenance system. The Comet V cars can be configured in any direction within a train. All Comet V systems can be monitored from any car in a train. The Comet V cab cars will be equipped with the Positive Train Stop (PTS) system."
Just had to laugh. Who are they trying to kid with the picture of one person sitting on the longtitudinal seats, the rest being covered by assorted clothes & baggage?!
Get real!
The photo should have every seat occupied, but you couldn’t tell this because there would be wall-to-wall people in front of the camera!
Here’s hoping.
John,
Still waiting for a 22:30 train southbound out of Newark…
While travelling on the Franklin Ave shuttle Sat. (didn't feel like taking shuttle bus bet. PP and Atlantic Ave) noticed that the typical side destination signs in the car had been removed and replaced with a fixed sign for Franklin Ave Shuttle and its terminals. This was an R-68 car #29??. I wonder why.
I guess that car won't be used on any other line any time soon!
The nine Franklin Avenue Shuttle R-68s (2916-2924) are the only R-68s not converted to four-car units. They're a dedicated fleet.
David
Cars 2916 to 2924 were not linked into 4 car sets. Those cars are dedicated to the Franklin Ave. shuttle. The side sign boxes are being uses as spares for the other R68/68A. Therefore, the fixed signs were substituted for the original sign boxes.
I was just looking at my 1964 subway map (Wishing the Myrtle were still running) In those days Metropolitan Avenue was serviced 24/7 my the Myrtle Avenue el, with a part time Myrtle-Chambers run.
Apparently the only Nassau/Broad Street train ro use the Montague was the part time TT (ie Nassau Loop). The map shows no Williamsburg trains entering the tunnel.
Also, that map shows NO ROUTE LETTERS or NUMBERS! The lines are labled, but not the separate routes.
Like I said, Interesting.
Still, it is one of my favorite subway maps.
Elias
Elias,
Yeah, I remember those maps. The BMT routes were green, IND was red and IRT was black. That was simple enough to me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yup, I have a replica '59 map in the black/green/red scheme from the museum in 1990. Among it's quirks is the showing of thru service on the Culver shuttle to Ditmas (before it was relegated to a shuttle) and the extra 15 cent fare which was required on the IND to go south of Howard Beach.
I also have that map from the transit museum. I bought it about 1991 or so, along with a huge "current" map (current in 1991 anyway). It's the kind that would fit into the long wide ad squares in subway stations.
Prior to the mid 1960's, southern and eastern division BMT routes never mixed. Only the section from Chambers to Broad along Nassau St saw regular service by trains of both divisions.
The Bairghton and 95th St had specials that ran over the bridge one way and through the tunnel the other, as well. (95th used the bridge peak direction, and the Brighton the owther way around, but carried no passengers over the bridge).
Also, there were a few trains that did go to Chambers from the south and lay up at ENY, and maybe one that went in service all the way or something. Others have these details better.
The Brighton and 95th St had specials that ran over the bridge one way and through the tunnel the other, as well. (95th used the bridge peak direction, and the Brighton the owther way around, but carried no passengers over the bridge).
Also, there were a few trains that did go to Chambers from the south and lay up at ENY, and maybe one that went in service all the way or something. Others have these details better.
The BMT Eastern Division routes nad no names or numbers while the Southern Division routes had letters. Even my mid-60s Hagstrom's map follows this trend. Wish I hadn't completely blacked out a few of the Eastern Division routes...
With the Blue Line cars in Boston being replaced, and the Orange Line questions in question of whether they will be replaced or overhauled, it seems that the MBTA's rolling stock doesn't last nearly as long as the MTA fleets, with the exception of the PCC Trolley cars that are running on the Mattapan Line. The Orange and Blue Line cars were purchased in the mid to late 70s, so they will maybe have 30 years on the tracks. The 01500 to 01700 Red Line cars are scheduled to be replaced within the decade, meaning that the 01500s and 01600s will see 30 years, and the 01700s will only have 20 years before being scrapped.
Meanwhile, with a few exceptions (like the R-44), is it just me, or do most MTA subways last 40+ years? Any ideas on why this happens? -Nick
We had a few fleets that didn't hold up too well:
R16 (1954-1986 6300s, 1954-1977 6400's)
R21 (1957-1988)
R22 (1957-1987)
R27/R30 (1961-1992, with many not making it to that mark)
BMT MS (1936-1961)
wayne
Correction re. 6400 series R16 - they were MOTHBALLED in 1977 and some did manage to return to service at later dates; all were gone by 1987.
wayne
You might as well have included the R17 which were little different from R16,21, and 22 which show short lived.Why they got a few more years in I don't know. None of those types impressed me as a motorman..the Westinghouse ones OK but nothing special. GE's poor.As for the MS types they were unloaded with the delivery of R27/30 due to being completely non-standard. Luckily the more-standard but still smaller fleet D types lasted until the R32's arrived.Praise the force! Then there were the hopeless case R11's which went thru a rebuild about 1964 [?] but never were any good, before or after.
So Thats a few fleets that didn't do well. With the MBTA, I've only seen the PCC Trolleys last 40+ years. The majority of NYC's equipment has held up nicely. -Nick
In Philly, the Broad Street line operated cars from the 20s when the line was built until they replaced them with the current Orange trains in the 80s. The original fleets lasted 60+ years, but they were virtually falling apart when they were replaced.
The Blue Line 0600's (with bodies made of corten steel) are literally rotting away in the ocean air of Orient Heights yard. The Orange Line 01200's, by contrast, seem to be holding up well and are probably capable of many more years of service with the proper maintenance. The Red Line's 01500 and 01600 classes have already logged 32 years of service, and will probably be close to four decades in service by the time they are retired. The 01700's will probably not last as long, since they will likely be retired with the older cars (which they MU with) rather than keep an orphan fleet of 58 cars running.
The MBTA loves new technology, and will take advantage of every opportunity they can to buy new cars, rather than keep older fleets running. The rebuilt PCC's on the Arborway line and converted Budd RDC coaches on the commuter rail were taken out of service before they were fully depreciated. And the 01400's on the Red Line were basically made unworkable by the need to retrofit these cars with cab signals. Imagine trying to convert the R32's or R36's to cab signal operation - you get the picture.
Jim D.
I was taking photos on the bridge over CS Depot and Corona Yard, and boy oh boy what do I see on one of the tracks near the garbage platform?
mew
curiousity will probably end up killing the cat.
If a train doesn't first.
The cat is probably smarter than most of the people on this board, and KNOWS what to avoid.
Let sleeping do-... cats lie, and watch them die...
Here kitty kitty kitty.
You guys are terrible!
We're the cat's meow.
Sorry, I had to say that.
I agree....
I happen to be a cat owner....one is 11 years old (and has been with me since 10 weeks old) and the other is six years old, been here three -- adopted himf rom the cat shelter where my wife and I volunteer, he kept gettign adopted and brought back but always wanted tobe around us when we were helping at the shelter. And I recently had to put my 17 year old cat down as his kidneys were failing.
Sometimes I wish I could see some of the people in here put downjust for lack of a brain.
Glad to see there are some cat people here. I have an 11 year old calico myself, I adopted her at about 1 year of age. She is the nicest cat, follows me everywhere, the minute I sit down, she jumps in my lap. And she still likes to chase her tail!
I felt so sorry to see that poor little guy in the train yard, I if found him, I'd bring him home.
It is not funny that the poor animal is there is that dangerous place and most likely will be killed by a train. I don't know how people can find humor in that situation.
I have a tabby cat that was rescued from the Weschester Yard in The Bronx at 6 weeks old. His name is Subway and is now 3 years old. Whenever I take him to the vet he is always real quiet on the train. I think he is afraid of me leaving him there.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't find leaving a stray cat in a train yard to be funny. I'd like to bring him (her?) myself. But the 2 cats I have don't like each other now. And they'll both turn against a new one.
But I'm sure this cat isn't exactly helpless. Between whatever the people at the yard/depot leave for him. The run of the grounds in and outside of TA property to fulfill a cat's need to be a hunter and he knows a place where they can safely sleep at night, That cat is probably doing very well.
I hope what you say is true about people looking after the cat at the yard and I'm glad there are a bunch of "cat" people here on the board.
I'm just sensative about cats in what could be dangerous places. When I got married, my wife decided my cats needed to "be free and smell the grass" the first month she moved in with me, two of my cats had been run over and killed. I have always felt guilty about not keeping them inside.
I lost a cat last year like that. He had run of my backyard. One day he discovered there was a world beyond it. So he would go exploring the neighborhood. One day he was crossing the road and he didn't notice a car was coming until a moment before he was hit. I would like to think stray cats at the yard are more aware of what goes on around them.
Cats that are used to the great out doors are more careful. Cars are not something that is programed into thier nature.
Our cats live (all year 'round) in our courtyard. Unless someone leaves a door open, they cannot get out.
I have built a wonderful little cathouse in a window well, with a bit of a heating system, and a heated water dish. In the winter I feed them in there, and they have a "throne room" (for thier litter box). In the summer, I feed them outside, and they can use the garden for their business.
Cats are special people.
Elais
I used to hate cats until a neighbor's cat adopted me when I was 20. I called him Bruce and we became very attached to each other. He would actually run up to me when I came home from school, lie on his stomach so I could pet his belly. When he was hit by a car and killed I was devastated. You can become very attached to cats.
>>>...was killed I was devastated.<<<
Yea, I know what you're saying. The cat I had before "Subway" died in a fire of smoke inhalation, (I wasn't home or I'd be in the same boat) I had her for 10 years, I was devastated also.
OMG, look, I'm talking to Sea Beach Fred. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Good to see I'm off your drop=dead list. Let's keep a diologue going. I want to end any misgivings that have hurt our relationship.
Cool with me.
Peace,
ANDEE
That cat looks sort of like the one that I saw last week at Jamaica yard and like a cousin to the one in 207 Yard. I wonder if someone got rid of a litter of strays on transit properties.
Its a Felid!
Let's call it: MetroCat.
Good idea. He (she?) gets into the system by swiping thru the fence.
...and where does this leave the 207st Yard Cat?
Somewhere, in the 207th St Yard, I would imagine.
Could always call that one "A" Cat
a nasty stray alley cat??........sooooooooo what ??
we have so many strays the trapping cages are being put out to catch em !!!
Strays live all over the system. I saw an entire "pack" of cats living in the Sutphin/Archer Ave complex.
They may be benificial, keeping the mouse/rat population under control.
True, but that doesn't mean they're good signs. If that cat is wandering around here, it may mean a family is near by. What happens if they get more populous than ever!? Ok, I got too far...
No, you didn't get too far. You made a VERY good point.
If only people would spay/neuter their pets and keep them in their houses, the stray population wouldn't get out of control.
"If only people would spay/neuter their pets and keep them in their houses, the stray population wouldn't get out of control."
That is not a *stry* cat.
It is an employee of the rodent management department.
Elias
There are plenty of stray cats where I live. They don't get in the way, they're cute and for some reason they manage to remain healthy and well fed.
I'd rather have cats than rats. It being a formerly industrial waterfront area, the cats are an excellent deterrent.
Works fine, until kitty runs into something bigger than he is. 8-0
ah...Ah...AH...CHOO!!!!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've spent the past few days riding on r142a's on the 6 line. Sorry folks Kawasaki did'nt do that great of a job that a lot of people on this board have been talking about. The brake squealing is horrible, and people say the r142's are bad. Then when one of the R142a's pulled into 3rd ave, it sat there making horrible loud noises. Like as though there was an air hose lose or something, sorry folks I'm not nitpicking but I think the 142's have taken enough bashing by people that say the 142a's are better.
I've noticed that too, but I didn't bother to post about it before. This one of the bad points the R142A's. I have no idea why they screech so loudly like the Redbirds now do? They've only been here for about a year and a half!
Yes, R142A, a year and a half... how about the R142?
About the same amount of time, I think.
If you count the times it's been taken into and out of service, the R142A has been in longer and more consistant.
Think about it, Kawasaki has produced better cars than its counterparts. The R62 and R62A comparisons have shown that when first in service, the R62 had very little breakdowns, and the R62A had lots of problems, like the R142 now. The R68A also shows more reliability than the R68's which were built by ANF Industrie (France), Westinghouse, and Althstrom.
It is my understanding that Kawasaki provided blueprints to Bombardier to manufacture the R142 trainsets...that means 'under license' because Kawasaki didn't think they could provide 'at price in time.' While almost identical, the Kawasaki displays higher quality control in assembly, utilizing the same parts of same vendors with similar problems. Word out is that the R160 may have Fuji door closures and that R142s just might be revamped. CI Peter
Some R142As make this horrible noise every time the train stops. Must start when the train goes about 3 to 5 MPH and goes until the train stops. It is even worse than on the Redbirds. At least my Rohrs down here don't do that because it destroys the musical sound of the brakes. What is that noise caused by anyway?
Braking in R142s and R142As is almost identical save software. The Tread Brake Units are the same...perhaps the difference in truck design can attribute to the 'noise.' CI Peter
To me the R142's are better than the A's. Even though the A's are better looking the R142's are more silent and provides a smoother ride.
So far, in the area of reliability, the R-142As (Kawasaki) are winning, hands-down.
March 2002 Mean Distance Between Failures (MDBF):
R-142 (410 cars at that time): 39,526 miles
R-142A (400 cars at that time): 144,620 miles
David
Forgive me if this is an old thread but has anyone noticed this. They are at the northbound at Jay St. and I know I have seen them somewhere else also. Is this another colossal waste or a R110B return?
The boards are on the the A,C, and D Lines. Also, the Brighton Line.
And they've been there since the cars were about to arrive, ten years ago. The cars are listed as "unavailable," but they haven't been retired and they certainly haven't been scrapped, so there's a chance they can come back. Therefore, there's no point in taking them down.
David
I saw both groups of cars on the Redbird trip on 5/26. Both were in 207th Street Yard. The 6 car set had its signs rolled to (A) and the 3 car set was signed to NOT IN SERVICE.
Sorry about that original post. I should have explained more. I am talking about brand NEW monitors (TV screens). Not the C/R (blue) boards. I saw another new monitor at Euclid Ave. on the southbound. They both (Jay St.) haven't been finished yet. Thanks.
So....
THIS hasn't been asked before:
What's everyone's favorite line/car model combination?
In other words, when you think of a line, what specific car model represents it best (in your opinion, naturally).
You can have more than a few :)
Mine are:
R-16's on the J (natch)
White-painted mixed consist trains (R-14/R-15/R-21 and higher) on the No. 2 White Plains Road line. (circa 1981, 82, 83)
R-10s on the CC in MTA Silver and Blue
R-40s on the E and F
R-46s on the GG
R27/30s in MTA Silver and Blue on the Brighton M (mid-late 70s)
maroon R-17s on the No. 4....
World's Fair cars on the Bronx 3rd Av. line (149th to Gun Hill Rd.)
Jeez, is my list 70s and 80s or WHAT?
:)
I say R143 on the Q. Sweeeeeeeeetttttttt....
-J!
There are R-143s on the Q?
Since when, I didn't realize they were there...
Now, that would be a cool idea. But I guess not. Seriously, that wasn't real. I must've been imagining things.
The Q has always been my fave line, and well, it's the first NYC line I was on, so I have to say the R68s on the Q. (Or was it the R42's? I can't remember...)
J-Train, I can't alter your list to much. It's exactly how I remember alot of those lines from when I was kid! Man the R27-30's on the M - perfect - I guess I will move the list a little to the 80's and put the R46's on the F. (I can't picture the F with anything else). You can throw in an R16 on the L, The N - the R68's, the slants on the B. The R10's definitly on the C - I remember riding them to Rockaway Park when I was a teenager. There's nothing better than an R10 with all the windows and doors open, and the little fans running, clanking down the Rockaway line looking forward to a day at the beach.....
Thanks GP38, you answered completely in the spirit of the question..... :)
I would love to live the days 1977-1982 when you had a variety on practically every line. For example, R40s, R10s, and R38s on the "A", R32s, R40s on the "AA", "B", "D", R10s, R32s and R40s on the "CC". These are just a few I can think of.
I completely agree...my favorite era in NYC subway history.
R27/30/32/42 and dont forget the classics, R6-9 on the Easteren Division QJ/KK/M=early 70's for me.
When I think of the Canarsie Line the BMT Standards automatically come to mind.
Also forget redbirds, when I think of the "7" line I automatically think of the blue & white worlds fair cars, some with state names along the side.
I love my F with R46s! i dunno how i would like the F without them altho i do like R32 Fs as well. but its just something about R46 with F that goes with White on rice
I couldn't agree more. I can't imagine the F without the 46's. In addition, the D seems synonymous with R68 also.
And I can't imagine the F without the R-40 Slants with the big "F" up front - like this.
Wow, that's a great shot. They must've been fairly new then because all the chains and bars are not on them yet. I've seen other photos of the slants on the F, but never seen or ridden them there. I always picture them on the B, and of course I've ridden them before and after their rebuilding on the J/M/L lines.
I agree, Bob..when I think of the F, I think of R-40s...way back in 1970 or thereabouts, when I was 6 (and already a big subway freak) I remember riding in my father's Volkswagen somewhere in Queens and seeing brand-new R-40s and saying "WOW!!! What are THOSE??"
Much different from the R-21s and R-15s up in the Bronx :)
I remember original R1-9 on the F and the D-Culver prior to that.
I can just picture the R6 pulling out of Neptune and going past the Banamo Candy factory on the way to West 8th(Lower Level).
Neptune? You mean Van Sicklen, don't you. My grandmother lived right next to that station in the Warbasse co-ops and we always used to walk to Coney Island under the el. I remember hearing the great R1-9 sounds overhead. I do not remember the Bonamo factory though. By the way, on the extreme right hand side of the picture is an R1-9, but its probably an "E" as they were usually on the outside tracks at 179.
Hey what's with all the red lights down the side of that train? I count 4 of them down the length of the train. Dead motors? Doors not secured? Should the train really be running with all those red lights?
The doors are open and it's in the station....It's hard to see the doores open, but look at the platform, you can see the lights from the doorways.
my mistake, didn't notice that. i was under the assumption that the train was in motion. heh. my bad.
I figured that, I thought the same thing at first......
Q's on the Myrtle Ave. Line
Standards on the Canarsie Line
Triplexes on the Brighton Express.
R-10's (in the original 2-tone gray/orange stripe) and turquoise/white with white racing stripe on the A.
R-16's on the J
R-17's on the 6
R-33WF and R-36WF (in the blue/white scheme) on the 7
R-40 Slants on the F
Also forget redbirds, when I think of the "7" line I automatically think of the blue & white worlds fair cars, some with state names along the side.
However, the 2 to me is R-33's in their current Redbird paint scheme. Too bad there are only a few left.
A few that are seeing limited use.............
I'm planning on going out tomorrow and taking my last Redbird 2 ride. They do run middays, yes? How many trains are left?
Yeah, best bet is during rush hours............
Blue/White World's Fair Design on the Flushing 7 during 1964/1965.
I liked the Slants on the "F", especially without the A/C and the soot all over the place (even inside the lights!).
Also worthy of mention:
R10 on the "A"
4400 series Slants on the "L" - so out of place, but so right at the same time.
R16 on the "EE" and "GG".
R38s on the "A".
wayne
R40 slants on the Q
R36s on the 7
Among the other good ones:
R38s on the A
Redbirds on the 2 Express
Redbirds on the 4/5
My all time favorite:
BMT D-Types on the West End Express
Redbirds on the Scrap line :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> What's everyone's favorite line/car model combination? <<<
Gate cars on the Myrtle Line
Standards on the Brighton Line
D types on the Sea Beach Express
Multis on the Canarsie Line
R-15 with the portholes that opened in the storm door on the Flushing Line
The El cars with the big Cyclops headlight on the 3rd Avenue El.
Lo-Vs on the Lexington Ave. Line
Tom
>>> What's everyone's favorite line/car model combination? <<<
Well Old Tom, has covered most of what I would think of, but let me add these few for variety.
R1-9s on the GG, more so the odd balls with variations in lighting
and interior paint schemes.
R1s on the 4th Avenue Local, with ends doors locked, ala BMT.
Hi-Vs on the Lexington Avenue Local prior to the R-17s.
IRT Gate Cars on the Dyre Avenue Shuttle with Johnson Fare Boxes.
No T/A North of 180th, C/Rs with coin changers.
Cs on the Fulton Elevated.
BUs & Standards on Myrtle Avenue North of Broadway.
R-10s on the A, with the R12/14 lookalikes on the 7.
The Polo Grounds Shuttle.
Franklin~Coney Island Expresses in summer.
Senior in years to have riden all the above in my teens.
:-) Sparky
Here's another oddball, I missed posting.
SIRT Cars on the Culver.
Those were the days, specific cars were assigned to specified lines.
:-) Sparky
Mine should be obvious from my handle. That's before GOH.
Redbirds on the mainline express and Bronx els. Gritty, hardworking, no-nonsense cars blowing past underground local stops, or meandering above gritty, hardworking, no-nonsense neighborhoods.
R32s on the Sea Beach, where they've been a pretty consistent presence since their inception- though intermixed with, variously, 16s, 27/30s, 38s, Slants, 42s, 46s, 68s and 68As. Of course the 32s and N line bear little resemblance to the 1964-'75 glory days when they had blue outside doors and flew express down Broadway and over the Bridge. The revival of weekday 4th Avenue express service is partial consolation.
R1-9s on the Queens express. You knew when one was coming, especially when standing on a local platform. By the late sixties, they mostly made limited rush-hour appearances on the CPW, Concourse, Culver, Brighton and Fulton express runs, so QB was the only place you could get one with any degree of certainty. When skipping Woodhaven Boulevard, you'd swear the train was going to shake itself apart or explode.
It's only since late '97, but you wonder what took them so long to put Slants on the Brighton express. It seems like such a natural fit, especially with the 68s walking- er, running local alongside. A speedily worthy successor to the 1/9s, 32s, Mod 40s and 42s on those ramrod straight stretches of embankment.
No one else seems to miss them, but the old fifties-era LIRR Diesels thundering along the Main Line between Floral Park and Hicksville always gave me a rush- whether in one or along the ROW, especially at the NHP crossings. The double deckers just don't have the same edge.
R-10s with the racing stripe scheme on the A. Surprise, surprise.:-)
R-36s in their original colors on the 7.
R-32s on the N.
R-4s on the D.
How could I forget the slants on the Q? Oops!
I still associate the BMT standards with the Canarsie line, but since I didn't care for them when they were still around, it's not necessarily a favorite combination. Honorable mention, perhaps.
To no one's surprise, give me the railfan window on a Triplex Sea Beach train running down the express tracks to Coney Island and that is pure joy for me. Oh what is that? Yes, that's right, I did have that experience a week ago. And let me or Mark Fineman tell you, I had a real blast.
That was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, too.:-)
I came this close to answering for you, too.:-)
Best ever: Brand new R32s on the old "Q"
But here's the next best line-up:
Early 70s
R10s on the "A"
R38s on the "B"
R1/9s on the "CC"
R32s on the "D"
R40 Slant Fronts on the "E" & "F"
R16s on the "EE"
R1/9s on the "GG"
R27s on the "M" & "QJ" & "QB" & "RR"
R1/9s on the "KK" & "LL"
R32s on the "N"
R17s on the "1"
R21s on the "2"
R12 thru 15s on the "3"
R29s on the "4"
R21/22s on the "5"
R26/28s on the "6"
R36s on the "7"
Q (pre 1968) R32 and prior Type D
QB and QT R27
RR R27
D/F on culver R1-9
A R10
Franklin Shuttle and Canarsie and Culver Sh. Standard
N R32 and prior Type D
7 Red bird with Blue and White World's Fair design
T/TT R32
C R10
Lets see:
R-40 Slants on the A
R-42 and 40Ms on the D
R-10 on the C
Thats about it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Check out my latest homepage exhibit at The Keystone Transit Page.
[There are about 35 photos averaging 100kb each. The index page contains avg 5kb thumbnails of these photos.]
Here are 3 of the cars which were out that day. Third Avenue (NY) Railway Car # 631. I rode this one to the end of the line. The trip
seemed very slow - made me wonder if a museum speed limit is in effect, or if that's all 631 could do. I don't remember seeing U.S. Mail Car # 108 before. Must be a new acquisition or new visitor to STM. I wanted to ride Liberty Bell Limited Car # 1030, but it wasn't in the cards, since I decided to try to catch…
Pete -- Nice seeing you again at Seashore. Here are some answers to your above questions:
We have a speed limit on a portion of the main line, where track work is in progress. For the rest of the main line, full parallel operation is authorized, but may have been limited on your trip if there were other cars preceeding, or simply if the operator wanted to draw out the trip some.
#108 has been at Seashore since 1949!!! (Here's the full roster of the collection.)
Hope to see you there again soon! BTW, our Subtalk colleague mr. t will help organize a Seashore SubTalk Field Trip this summer. Stay tuned!
Good seeing you again too, Todd. Strange that I hadn't seen the mail car before. Too bad duty called you back to New York so (relatively) early on Saturday. The trip with Thurston may be in the cards since I seem to be accumulating some vacation time.
As long as you're answering questions:
Can you tell me about this rapid transit equipment?
Where did this car run?
See you soon,
Keystone Pete
The upper car is a Philadelphia Delaware Bridge car, either 1018 or 1023. Seashore has both - I'm not sure which this is.
The lower car is 1267 from Twin Cities Rapid Transit (Minneapolis). What a beauty!
Frank Hicks
I thought those looked like Delaware River Bridge cars. The red paint-scheme threw me off. We have one in blue/silver livery at Rockhill.
Right you are, Frank, on both counts. I believe that's 1023, as I think it's in front of 1018. I'll double check on my next trip to Seashore.
Does anyone know what the metal "arm" that connects the rail to the front of the yellow car (second picture in the post) is for and what purpose it serves?
Thanks in advance.
That's a "blue flag." It's not connected to the car... that's an optical illusion.
A "blue flag" means "person on or near the car -- do not move car." Only the person who put the blue flag there may remove it. It's used primarily by maintenance personnel to tell operating crews to keepa-yur-pawz-off.
Thanks, after reading your anwser, I can see that it is not connected to the car.
Todd,
I gather from the position in the photo, this is the rear view and
the rectangle has the "Blue Flag" on it. First time I've seen this
application. Do know what the "Blue Flag" signifies.
:-) Sparky
What's that located behind the Twin Cities streetcar? It looks almost like a PCC trolley in SEPTA livery, but I don't remember seeing anything like that in my trips to Seashore. Maybe my memory is failing me.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That's a Philadelphia & Western "bullet car," circa 1931. It's either #203, 207, or 208 -- I'm not sure which one. None of these are operational. They were acquired by Seashore in 1991, and with some luck (plus volunteer labor, time, and money), we may have enough parts between the three of them to make one that will operate.
Strange looking Bullet - it's got standee windows.
All seriousness aside, it really is a Philly all-electric PCC.
It's SEPTA PCC 2709. Check out the photo to the right of the Twin Cities streetcar in the "Back at the Seashore Trolley Musuem" section on my page. I took the 2 photos minutes apart. That car has been there in various locations on the grounds since I began returning to STM as an adult 3 years ago. I've never seen in run, though.
Be sure to contact me, chuchubob, Jersey Mike, Karl B, and Isaac Shomer and other SubTalkers with a Pennsylvania connection when you get to Philly. I'm sure we'd all be up for some SubTalk trips in the City of Brotherly Love. [I'm just disappointed not to have made it to the Chicago trip while you lived there :O( ] You might also want to look into the The Rockhill Trolley Museum for museum activities. It's only 3 hours, give or take, west on the Turnpike.
I am desperately trying to get together a Philly trip for a Friday in June. Would you be interested?
I'll be in Philly on Friday, June 14th and might be up for a trip. Still working out my travel schedule, though, so my intinerary may change between now and then.
-- David
Chicago, IL
21 or 28 would work for me, as long as I can give at least a week's notice to work. You can contact me by email so we don't clog-up Dave's bandwidth sorting out the details. (Sorry David Cole -- 14 is out for me -- but you'll be in Philly on a semi-permanent basis soon enough. I hope we'll meet up then.).
You're right, Pete -- my error.
2709 has been out of commission for the past year, but we hope to have it back on-line later this season. One of my Seashore collegues who works for SEPTA is that car's "guardian."
Was it re-guaged?
Pete,
2709 has been regauged to operate at Seashore. I was first trained
and qualified on PCCs on 2709, by the person Todd says is its guardian. That's the same person, who assisted RTM in the aquisition of 2743. I've operated 2709 on several occasions on my annual visits to Seashore. I'll admit most times you'll find me at Branford.
I'm also now a member of RTM.
:-) Sparky
"Hope to see you there again soon! BTW, our Subtalk colleague mr. t will help organize a Seashore SubTalk Field Trip this summer. Stay tuned!"
Roger that my friend, am looking forward to it. Will be a 2 or 3 day event over a week-end w/out a holiday, target is July. We intent to spend some/most of our time there getting dirty on their Gibb Hi-V. Won't it be nice to get her operational again !
At this point I have about 1/2 dozen interested, please e-mail me privately to add yourself to the list.
Mr t__:^)
Hi Keystone Pete,
I'd like to take the opportunity to thank you for the numerous photos you have posted for our enjoyment. Especially the photos of the World Trade Center. They brought tears to my eyes and brought back a lot of fond memories.
Thanks again for the photos and my hat's off to you.
Sincerely,
Bklynsubwaybob
Thank you, Bob. Veterans Day 1997 fell midweek, and with the day off, I decided to be a tourist in my own city. I took numerous photographs from the Statue of Liberty Ferry, Liberty Island and Ellis Island that day. I took shots not just of lower Manhattan, but also of Lady Liberty herself, Ellis Island, Brooklyn Bridge, etc. I'm usually not a big fan of the International, glass box style of architecture (not that the twin towers fell strictly into this catagory), but there was something about those two towers, situated where they were, that was quite beautiful (especially in early evening light). At the time, the shots with the star-spangled banner simply made for interesting composition. The fact that such a choice would prove significant 4 years later saddens me too.
Keystone Pete
Brooklyn, NY
Damn, I was in Kennebunkport that weekend and had no clue all that was going on :(.
I did see that Adidas-wrapped Type 7 in Boston, though!
OK, guys, for a New Yorker in exile in North Carolina :
I know it's a lot to ask, but I'd like to know what each line has car-wise these days.
A complete list would be very much appreciated :)
I will put in what I know:
A..........R32, R38, R44
C..........R32
E..........R32,R46
F..........R32, R46
G..........R46 I think
J/Z........R40 (Rarely), R40M, R42
L..........R40, R40M, R42, R-143
N..........R32, R40, R46, R68, R68A
Q..........R40, R68, R68A (R40 on Q diamond)
R..........R32, R46
S..........R68
I know I am missing a few. But like I said I would put in what I know. And I do not ride the IRT on a regular basis. So I will not ID any of the cars on the numbered lines. So help me out someone
I think as of now on the IRT, it's
1 -- R-62A
2 -- R-33/R-142
3 -- R-62A
4 -- R-62/R-33
5 -- R-26/28/29 (basically whatever's left of that group)/R-33/R-142
6 -- R-62/R-142A (plus one rogue R-33 unit that apparently snuck in last week)
7 -- R-33WF/R-36ML/R-36WF/R-62A
The M is like the J/z...Rare occasions and R40, usually R40M-42
I was on an R-38 on the C this past Saturday .
The "C" has quite a few R38s operating. In fact, the ratio of R32:R38 is about 60:40.
You forgot
V....R46
W....R68/68A
Grand Street Shuttle (S)...R46
Rockaway Park Shuttle (S)....R44
ew :p
I'm not aware of R-46's on the N line.
They used to run there back in the early 80's, or was it the R44's. The N definitely had the R46's back then.
I don't think the N train has had R-46 's since they flip-flopped terminals in Queens with the R back in the late '80s.
I have it all outlined on my website.
http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics/subwaycars1.htm for the breakdown by the line
http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics/subwaycars2.htm for the breakdown by car class
http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics/irtyards.htm for the IRT Yard Stickers
Hey, thanks a million!!!!!
No prob although programming the HTML tables can be a hassle sometimes...
Note that I reluctantly added the R62A to the 7 on both pages :-(
Your tables aren't entirely correct.
There are no R-29's on the 2; there haven't been for a number of years.
The 5 is now mostly R-33's -- specifically, the ones that used to run on the 2. I'm not sure if the 5 had any R-33's before the R-142's bumped the Redbirds off the 2. The 5 has also started to receive its R-142's.
R-32's are occasionally sighted on the A and R.
R-46's are occasionally sighted on the E.
Many R-68A's show up on the N, especially on weekends. There are occasional R-68 sightings on the W and R-68A sightings on the Q. And the local-express distinction isn't set in stone.
The Grand Street shuttle runs R-46's from Jamaica.
I am not counting the occasional appearances. Those tables reflect the actual assignments. There are no R46s assigned to the E but that does not mean they can't show up there. Same with the R32s on the A and E.
I can correct the 2/5 thing though.
IME, official assignments aside, R-68A's show up on the N much more often than R-32's show up on the F. If you're listing only what's officially assigned, you might want to mention that somewhere.
And the Grand Street shuttle is assigned R-46's from Jamaica. That's all it's ever had from Day One. Whoever told you it ran R-68's was very mistaken; I don't think there's been an R-68 in Grand Street since early in the morning on July 22 (the last B train to Brooklyn).
I will change Grand and the 2/5 ASAP. I can note that those are the official car assignments and they are subject to change based on train availability.
I've seen the R-68s on the Grand Street shuttle. I'm almost certain that's what it's had recently. So I think you are right.
I highly doubt you saw R-68's on the Grand Street shuttle. If you did, it's because the usual R-46's there broke down and a set of R-68's (probably off the B or D) was the first thing that could fill in. Was it a full-length train? What did the signs say?
The Grand Street shuttle normally runs R-46's out of Jamaica.
You're right, my mistake. For some reason I was thinking of the Franklin shuttle, which does have R-68s. Stupid lack of paying attention on my part. (I'm still not used to the idea of a Grand Street Shuttle so for some reason my mind thought of the Franklin shuttle).
From today's (6/3/02) New York Times:
After a five-month delay, work on a trolley to run from Red Hook to Downtown Brooklyn resumed two and a half weeks ago. Work had begun in October and stopped in December after the project, spearheaded by the Brooklyn Historic Railway Association, fell short of money needed to supplement federal funds. The work resumed after Mayor Bloomberg promised $50,000 for the trolley in his executive budget. The estimated total price tag: $3 million.
Congratulations to Bob D!
--Mark
All right! Soon, we'll be hearing trolleys clanging back in Brooklyn!
>>All right! Soon, we'll be hearing trolleys clanging back in Brooklyn!<<
And we'll hear the sound of Mayor LaGuardia spinning in his grave ! And he thought he killed the trolleys for good.
Bill "Newkirk"
I wonder what Robert Moses is doing in his grave?
Rotting. :)
Probably saying "Boy,it's awfully hot down here".
Yeah, and you can ONLY use public transportation......that would be HIS personal hell......
Well, he is underground. :-)
Excellent! When do they expect to have the trolleys running?
What sort of volunteer opportunities does BHRA have, if any? Since I'll be moving to Philly soon, I'll be looking for a way to get involved with something like that. Branford is a little too far to make it up from Philly every weekend, but Brooklyn would be much closer.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Bob Diamond's current plan is to make a loop & start charging for rides. The area is part of a development zone. The trolleys could help re-vitalize the are, just as light rail has/is done in other cities, e.g. HBLR, San Fran, etc.
David,
They do have a web site and if your willing to get dirty, they gladly
welcome your assistance. Maybe once a month, you could veture up to
Branford and join us also.
So try: HTTP://www.Brooklynrail.com
Contact me privately, I can refer you to one of the shop people.
:-) Sparky
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
Beginning in late September I'll be going to school part-time in the evenings while working full-time during the day, so my weekends may end up being used to catch up on schoolwork and rest. But I'm keeping my options open until I have a better idea of what my schedule will be. I may end moving to Philly too late to do much this summer, but next summer is always a possibility.
-- David
Chicago, IL
With your location-to-be in Philly, there are several reasonably convenient places to volunteer. Branford and BHRA have already been mentioned, but two others that are even closer to Philly are the operation in Scranton and the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, where occasional poster Dan Lawrence practically lives. And of course National Capital just outside DC - closer than Branford, about the same as BHRA, but farther than the other two.
All that being said, I drive all the way to Branford when I could just as easily drive to one of the others (I'm the operating/tour guiding type, not the mechanically inclined, so BHRA doesn't have much to offer me).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris,
To give an objective view of trolley operations for David in
relationship to Philly, may I add he visit Rockhill Trolley Museum,
Orbisonia, PA. With his Chicago roots and gleaming interest in the
North Shore Electroliners, he'll find the Liberty Liner [aka Electroliner] and CA&E 315. And if'n he a railfan, the EBT narrow
gauge steam operation across the street. Me thinks it's 3 hours
west of Philly.
:-) Sparky
Right. Not sure why I left that one out... it's close to four hours from Philly, though, at least if you stay reasonably close to the legal speed limit :-) Well worth a visit, regardless.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think if I were going to spend 3-4 hours each way on the road to/from a trolley museum each weekend, I'd probably just as soon head up to Branford! At least I already know a few of the folks up there.
-- David
Chicago, IL
David, we would love to have you join us, but what about Baltimore ?
Would that be closer to you ? Dan Lawrence has been a long time poster here. If he doesn't reply to this e-mail privately & I'll give you his address.
Mr rt__:^)
I'll have to check out the museum at Baltimore. I know E_DOG is active there as well. But I understand they only have Baltimore equipment there? My primary interest is actually rapid transit stuff, as opposed to trolleys (although trolleys are still cool), so that naturally leads me to places like Branford and IRM.
However, the cool things about BHRA are that: 1) It's in Brooklyn (as if I would need an excuse to head to NYC every weekend) and 2) It will be a real live trolley system using city streets and serving as actual transit, rather than just a museum piece. Nothing against museums, but there's something very cool about the ideal of helping get a bona fide trolley system up and running.
At the very least, though, I'll probably become a member at Branford and try to get up there every so often for special events.
But then, like I said, It all depends on my schedule and what sort of workload/schoolwork I'm taking on, and what other activities in Philly I end up doing. I do have other hobbies, too. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes, BSM is very nearly, if not 100% (I'm not sure), all Baltimore equipment. But it's NICE Baltimore equipment!
Given your interest in RT stuff, though, Branford is the place to be. I don't know of any other non-agency museum, outside of IRM, that dedicates as much effort and money to RT as Branford does. The nice thing about both of those museums, though, is that they are not emphasizing RT to the exclusion of everything else - after all, Branford is named the Shore Line Trolley Museum for a very good reason. Rather, the RT equipment complements the trolleys and helps me, as an operator/guide at Branford, tell the story of urban mass transit in America.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right you are Mouse. We talk a lot about their RT stuff here, because that's what this group cares about, but in fact the rt stuff doesn't run too often. Their is interest there in intergrating maybe a El car/train for some "scheduled" trips on the week-ends.
The membership rolls has added quite a few rt fans and the rt/NYC event does draw a big crowd. There is also a couple of groups active restoring same.
I'm finding more and more of the "trolley" guys becoming my friends, but who is changing them or me ?
Mr rt__:^)
When you get settled, e-mail me and we'll try to set up a visit to "America's First Downtown Streetcar Museum. I'll set up the proverbial 25 cent tour.
That's just great!
Although this seems more like a symbolic gesture -- $50000 won't take it far; but hey, with any luck that might be just the beginning.
Another question of course is, supposing it can be completed, is it going to be able to turn a profit? And if not, then again who's going to pick up the tab?
At this point I think Bob Diamond's intention/desire is to get it running, at least around a loop. So, until it starts drawing hords of customers, with a few volunteers it won't cost much to operate (am wondering if the City is going to provide free electricty).
Mr rt__:^)
On the E train at LEX half was into the station, heard the scream and felt the wheels go over something.
Was it a 12-9?
Anyone know if the person lived?
My best to the crew.
Person was DOA
Thank you for the update.
He is no longer with NYCT......
Mike, can you elaborate...
Last thing I heard, Erik was an engineer for PATH. It's nice to hear that he landed on his feet after he tripped over the TWU
>>Last thing I heard, Erik was an engineer for PATH.<<
Soon we'll be hearing Erik weave tales of PATH, just he did here on the subway ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I can see it now -- "The Transit Professional Formerly known as Mr. PA3" 8~>
I hope so.
That's very interesting. He was a member of the New Directions group, many of us even saw him on TV at a rally. Pres. Roger T. is/was also New Directions.
Maybe he just left the TA to become a operator as he was a Conductor at the TA ?????
In any case, Eric if you are reading this, I wish you all the best.
Mr rt__:^)
Woo-hoo! Article here Check out the quote from Dr. Michael Meyer, he's one of my professors this semester.
Say you ride the bus, enter the subway within 2:18 minutes, then
attempt a transfer from "6" to "F" at 59th to Lexington, where you can
transfer free, with Metrocard only. Will the system recognize a free
transfer after you have reset coming from the bus to the subway?
No. There is only one free MetroCard transfer per paid fare, and the newly permitted subway-to-subway MetroCard transfers count. Sorry.
They should. It defeats the purpose of their existance unless they do.
It doesn't quite defeat the purpose of their existence, but I agree that the bus-subway transfer shouldn't eat up the subway-subway transfer.
Personally, I've gotten a lot of use out of the subway-subway transfers to make round trips.
I used the one at 63rd and Lex in December, expecting to be able to get on the M2 for my return trip uptown. I was not pleased when the farebox said 1.50 PAID. I was going to Rockafeller Center and without the F on 53rd, I figured I would get the F at 63rd and go that way.
I agree, at the very least this restriction should have been publicized better. Next time take the E to 5th or the N/R to 49th and walk.
I wish it was.
To top it off, I missed an M2 Limited, then waited 20 minutes for another. We never passed a single local bus I had let by. Also, at that point the M1 and M2 don't stop in the same place as the M3 and M4, so I really could only wait for M1s and M2s. My previous experience had been if you waited for a limited M2 on a Saturday afternoon, you would still beat the local from that point on Madison.
Also understand that most folks now use some form of Unlimited MC, so the answers here only apply to folks with VALUE MCs.
P.S. There are a few "3 Legged" Transfers permitted, but in general the answer above is correct, i.e. you get ONE free Transfer, then you pay again.
Mr rt__:^)
Most folks use unlimiteds? I highly doubt that. Do you have a source to back that up?
Taking into account only everyday rush hour commuters, it's possible, although even that I find unlikely. But among the midday and weekend crowds, few have unlimiteds.
Taking into account only everyday rush hour commuters, it's possible, although even that I find unlikely. But among the midday and weekend crowds, few have unlimiteds.
Hmm. Aren't most people who ride the subways rush hour commuters? Isn't that why it's more crowded then?
There are more people riding the trains during rush hours than at other times, but that doesn't mean that a majority of riders are riding during rush hours. I don't know if a majority of total ridership takes place during rush hours, but I doubt it, especially on the IRT.
In any case, even if a majority of subway riders are rush hour commuters, and a majority of rush hour commuters have unlimited passes, that doesn't mean that a majority of subway riders have subway passes. If, e.g., 65% of all riders are rush hour commuters, and 65% of all rush hour commuters have unlimited passes, only 42% of all subway riders have unlimited passes.
The Q65 bus has more Unlimited then value MetroCards users every week-day. 1/4 of the paying customers pay in cash, it also has a lot of folks who board with some kind of a Transfer (paper or MetroCard Bus/Subway).
Mr rt__:^)
Thurston,
Transfer = Paper??? Do you mean the card issued from the Fare Box
for short turns or Bus to Bus Transfer with C*A*S*H?
:-) Sparky
Sparky, We still get several different kinds of "paper". One is the paper/card "Bus Transfer". Another is the single trip paper/card (green). A third is given to Seniors & Disabled when they buy a subway ride with cash. Lastly is a "Block", pink, when the subway don't work so good ... there is another issued for this purpose when the TA sends buses to replaced scheduled subway down time, but they don't ask us to provide that service .... even on Steinway Street.
Mr rt__:^)
We also have to account for the "Queens Fare" that cheap fare you get for only paying cash out there in Queens Land.
Right, ride every day off-peek for $1.00 if you pay in cash ... you can also ask for a Transfer, such a deal !
Mr rt__:^)
It is such a deal. Is that on Queens Surface Lines only? Is the
transfer paper or a paper/card?
:-) Sparky
All of the private company local routes. The transfers issued are normal, you can transfer to any route, even $1.50 TA routes.
You can't use the paper card to transfer to the subway.
That's why it's called a "Bus Transfer"
That's what I tell the customers when they don't know why it can't be used on the subway.
Thurston,
Thanks for the input regarding Transfers. I guess I'm so used to only
the "paper/card", forgot about the others. Well when your Senior enough to remember Drivers issuing Paper Transfers & Change. >G<
:-) Sparky
If, e.g., 65% of all riders are rush hour commuters, and 65% of all rush hour commuters have unlimited passes, only 42% of all subway riders have unlimited passes.
Sssssshhhhhh... don't tell the Republicans!
Come on, that's not fair. We all know Bush won by a 5-to-4 majority.
"If, e.g., 65% of all riders are rush hour commuters, and 65% of all rush hour commuters have unlimited passes, only 42% of all subway riders have unlimited passes."
Adding to the confusion is that those with unlimited passes ride more often (not surprisingly). So using those numbers, the 42% of riders who maybe have unlimited passes might account for a majority of the rides.
True, it's possible. Again, although I haven't seen any statistics, I doubt it.
One anecdote. A few months ago, during a GO that suspended 4/5 service from the Bronx to Manhattan, I was on the shuttle bus from 149-GC to 3-138. Unfortunately, it dropped us off at the wrong end of the station, by the unattended entrance (so nobody was there to accept our transfers). We all went downstairs anyway, and out of the entire articulated busload, I saw only about five swipe their way through the HEETs -- the rest of us marched up the other staircase and walked to the other end of the station. Presumably, anyone with an unlimited (and half a brain) would have just swiped in, as would anyone who didn't have a paper transfer (i.e., anyone who would have only boarded the subway at 149-GC had it been running there but instead hopped onto the free bus). Now, I'll grant that this was just an anecdote, but it appears that very few Sunday morning Bronx subway riders use unlimiteds.
My experience with those transfers have been interesting. When I needed to go to Stillwell, and the N doesn't go there anymore, I took the bus (paid once) to the W (1 free transfer). Then from Stillwell, I took the B74. The farebox said 1.50 paid. On my way home, coming on the bus again, it siad 1.50 paid, and I had only lost one fare. It didn't deduct the 1.50 on my "2nd transfer" although it said it did.
Like I have posted previously, my wife uses a mail 'n ride disabled card and the transfering is odd. On many occasions in the PM returning to Brooklyn via LIC, she'll opt for the 2nd bus. Reading
the monthly statement, you get one with mail 'n ride, it may or may not charge her the extra fare.
We did it once together several years ago, her with her reduced and mine the regular. On the last bus of the subway>bus>bus, she received a transfer accepted, while I paid the additional fare. So who knows?
:-) Sparky
As noted in a previous post by BMTman in the Model Train show thread,Thurston, Heypaul, BMTman and myself saw 2 Redbirds at Floyd Bennet Field in the Emergency Services part of the field.
We couldn't get close enough to make out the numbers. We didn't have strong enough camera lenses or binoculars to make out the numbers. They DID NOT appear to be R33/36 WF cars from the shape of the windows.
Anyone know which two are now sitting at Floyd Bennet Field /
Al, I made a post about this yesterday: Heypaul and I biked out to Floyd Bennett on Sunday and got a closer look at the Redbirds and that beat-up fishbowl (no markings to ID it).
The Redbirds are indeed a set of R-33's. Their numbers are 9156 & 9157. I will forward the shots to Dave P. for inclusion at his IRT roster.
Some railfans will go to any length for their hobby.
And note that a no time were they any place they should be, because they are OUT STANDING in their field. Good work !
Mr rt__:^)
Has anyone else noticed the B.C. daily comic strip for today?
I guess the cartoonist doesn't like subways!
"Never ride on a subway where there are legs caught in the doors"
Yes, 2 1959 American Car and Foundry R-26's have been saved and will spend the rest of their days in the BMT as schoolcars! They are 7770-7771, The oldest R-26's still on the property as 7750-69 have been reefed. While they will no longer operate and will be in a fixed location, at least they are saved! Just keep your eyes open. They will appear in a yard somewhere on the BMT soon. Anyone care to start guessing?
-Mark
*HINT*
They will be near a public space and in a location where they can be photographed!
PS248?!?
-Stef
Either that or they'll be at Coney Island Yard.
-Stef
Coney Island yard has two R30 to use for School Car.
Robert
Are they getting a divorce, i.e. no longer married pairs ?
Mr rt__:^)
Coney Island?
So what happened to the 2 that the I.R.M. was supposed to get ?
I understood that no Redbirds would be sold to anyone because of asbestos concerns. No exceptions.
Bummer.
Let's just say you'll never know what can happen. Those excpetions might change tomorrow.
-Stef
I sure hope so.
Yet they can be sunk to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.
They will remain a pair and will not be going to PS 248 or Coney.
ENY or Canarsie needs a school car. There doesn't seem to be any space at ENY, but Canarsie is being expanded (such as the new tower being built.) That way, R-143 training can be held there where all the cars are instead of Pitkin.
You are correct! They will be in Canarsie yard on 12 track (The one closest to the station) They should be there sometime this week.
-Mark
That Track #1 not #12.
Robert
Uh...I don't know what you are talking about. Track 12 is alongside the fence next to the station. Track 1 is in the middle of the yard.
Now that I think about it your Right. It's been I while since I have been in the yard. I am SORRY. Last few time that I have been in the yard was on the Work train, coming off of the track with out power.
Robert
As we speak, the cars are being sandwiched between 4 R-42's for their trip to Canarsie! I'm on the L tomorrow and will have camera in hand! I am like a kid in the toy store. I am so happy I got them to take those 2 cars!
-R-26 7770-1 formerly known as Mark W. lol
Now if they run them down there in REVENUE, it'll be like the old days. :)
Don't tell BMTMan, he'll abondon his new IRT home to go back to the L.
I don't see how Doug can live on the IRT in the first place, it seems so a-typical. Doug, are you listening? There are some places on the Franklin Shuttle roadbed where you could build a nice narrow condo!
:-)
Dave
Awwww, Unca Dougie's gone completely to L anyway. If he wasn't jumping up and down demanding that they run up and down the Franklin Avenue shuttle, then his therapy is coming along nicely. :)
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the great news, let us know when they finally get there. I'd like to take a ride out there and get a picture or two.
Thanks,
Marc
Ssshhh! Mark I thought you weren't suppose to tell anyone. It was supposed to be a secret?
Yes...But now that thay are there, everyone will know.
And when they're done serving as a school cars, Mark can help secure these for the RPC, otherwise they'll become a part of the Transit Museum Fleet (if we're that lucky).
-Stef
I saw the married pair set of R-26s #7770-7771 on the January 21, 2002 field trip with some of the "SubTalk"ers. I'm glad to see that at least two of those cars are saved. I think that the T/A should preserve at least one married pair set of the following cars. R-28/29/33/36/36WF/ They already have a R-33WF in the museum. Perhaps one more in working condition can be added.
#3 West End Jeff
Can you read this sign & what does it say??
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r10/r10-3318.jpg
I could only make out the last word clearly: "Unfair". I fiddled with it a bit and it looked something like "Raising the fare unfair". Maybe someone with a system configured for heavy-duty image editing can make it out better.
I saw "Raise in Funds... U-WALK"
(maybe they meant "raising funds... u-walk")
After fiddling with it with my Adobe Photo Shop, I am convinced it says
"Raising the fare unfair"
That's what I made it out to be. Judging from the half-and-half paint scheme, this photo probably dates from December of 1969, when they announced a fare increase. The Daily News carried a headline, "25-cent fare for sure, but maybe 30 cents". It went from 20 to 30 cents on January 2, 1970.
20 cents to ride an r10!?!?!
Somebody PINCH me!
0:)
Well, that's when a slice of pizza was only a quarter....
::THUD!!::
thats the only sound a r-142 makes !!!............lol!!
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
0:c)
back in the 1960s ...
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
*****************
enter dis ' inta' your url ....
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
Yes, from July 5, 1966 until January 2, 1970 the subway fare was 20 cents, and they still used the dime-sized tokens. I remember both very well. My token tie clip and token cuff links bring back many pleasant memories.
Ah memories.
That like my hairline is slowly receding.
Don't remind me of that.:-(
I have read postings about the G that it turns at Church Avenue on Saturday's due to the 4th Avenue tower not being staffed. Well, I have observed G trains being moved to the express track at 4th Avenue, and turning at Church Avenue. This means they need BOTH the 4th Avenue and Church Avenue towers staffed.
Does anyone know the real reason they move the G trains to the express track, run them past the "normal" turning point, ant run all the way to Church Avenue?
The G was originally intended to turn at Church. Church has all the relay tracks and crew facilities. The G was suposted to provide local srevice and the F express service. This duality needs to be restored.
>and crew facilities
Please tell me where they are!
Someone mentioned them b4 when this topic came up.
imma expert on the culver line especially with church avenue. the crew facilities are behind the stairs at the front of the southbound platform. at church av SB, the T/O crew gets off and a relay operator brings the g down and back up the other side and a new crew gets on.
many people at 4av/9st need to take the f to get beyond church av so they shouldnt make the f express. its a railfan's dream to extend the v into culver and make the f express but due to a bad fire at bergen that crippled the interlocking system, trains coming from jay st can either ONLY go exp or ONLY go local.
one possibility is to extend the g into church av, both f and the g run local. y cant the mta do that? people say itll get congested at church av but dont they do they same at smith9? but instead the mta drops the g in the middle of no man's land.
Sorry to break it to you expert, But behing the stairs is only a tower. There are no crew facilities anywhere in the station.
What did they do when the IND ended at Church Ave, back in the day?
I have long argued here that the G should be extended to Church, if nothing else so it doesn't end one stop away from a transfer point (to the BMT downstairs). It's almost insulting the way the G relays right in the station at 4th Avenue, but on an inaccessible track.
Right now, there probably aren't enough cars for this to be realistic during rush hour. It could -- and should, IMO -- be done off-peak, when the F doesn't run terribly frequently.
It's almost insulting the way the G relays right in the station at 4th Avenue, but on an inaccessible track.
Couldn't a platform be "temporarily" constructed over the 4th track for the G train? I think they did someting like that at Marcy Av when the WIlly B was closed.
They also put temporary platforms over the local tracks on some stations on the Brighton Line several years ago
when the tracks were being worked on.
- Lyle Goldman
I had a similar thought, but the complex network of staircases leading up to the station would have to be modified to add a staircase to the new island platform. I don't know how expensive that would be, but it would probably be cheaper to run G's to Church for many years.
complex network of staircases leading up to the station would have to be modified to add a staircase to the new island platform.
Surely it would only be necessary to give it access through somewhere that is already accessible. A simple wooden (or steel if wood is considered too much of a fire risk) staircase to the Manhattan bound platform would be enough to render it useable. That probably would necessitate the destruction of part of the canopy on that platform.
I would also suggest putting sections of steel deck across both center trackways at 7th Av and Church Av, giving one large island platform at each, but should a GO dictate, the former layout could be restored by a team of 6 men and an AJ.
It's already a hefty climb from the BMT platforms to the IND platforms, with no escalators or elevators to assist. An overpass is unreasonable.
I believe that British James doesn't understand that the F uses the local tracks with side platforms, while the G relays in the middle on the express. A temporary platform would have to be in place of one of the express tracks, accessed from above or below.
Too bad I wasn't in CPM signals while the Bergen Street project was being designed. I would have suggested moving the interlocking between Smith/9th and 4th that allows the G to relay into the tunnel between 4th and 7th Avenues. The G could have served 4th Avenue, and would have only had to go a few more feet. Perhaps when they start designing the Culver CBTC project I'll bring it up.
I agree about going to Church off peak. If you going to relay at Church, why not go there? The big advantage would be a link between the Orthodox communities in Kensington and Williamsburg -- nearby Boro Park is a big shopping center for Orthodox around the world. There is a private bus between the two communities that spews fumes.
It's already a hefty climb from the BMT platforms to the IND platforms, with no escalators or elevators to assist. An overpass is unreasonable.
I am aware of that. Does the MTA plan to install escalators? It certainly would be helpful.
An overpass wouldn't be unreasonable for an physically fit person. Anyone who's managed to get up all those stairs already would not find another flight particularly more exerting. However, access from below would be much better (if more expensive to construct), plus anyone with a degree of physical incapacity would find it even harder than at present.
Ever run up those stairs before? During the week of the GO when the trains were running through the lower level, I ran up those stairs as soon as I saw a train in the station with the doors open, since I didn't want to miss it and wait 15 minutes for the next one. I also wanted to ride in the front car. I made it with about a minute to spare or so. I am in good shape and I was tired.
A friend of mine got married and moved to New Jersey because when he and his wife were dating, he went from Bay Ridge to Flushing Avenue on the G line, and he couldn't take that Smith-9th-Fourth Avenue situation any longer!
Well, I live in Bay Ridge, & my fiancee lives off the Nassau Ave. "G". Easiest way for me to get over there is by getting off at Pacific, and walking around the block to the G by BAM.
Welcome to "Krakow on the East River" and glad your not a spend thrift,
when it comes to sliding for the extra fare. It is hell
to transfer and walk up at Fourth Avenue, and wait for the "F",
while the "G" relays in front of it.
:-) Sparky
"due to a bad fire at bergen that crippled the interlocking system, trains coming from jay st can either ONLY go exp or ONLY go local."
It's more restrictive than that. There are no working home or approach signals on the lower level, and Bergen tower has no control over the turnouts down there either.
Any G.O. that requires Culver trains to run express through Bergen requires a small army of Signal and RTO people, and some setup time.
They just run the trains every 15 minutes when they do that, I rode it when they did that GO last year. I will attest that those trains were not running every 15 minutes but the one I rode through there waited at 4th Avenue for a few minutes with the doors open before going onto the express.
Why don't they just fix the interlocking.
I think the bid was just awarded for someone (Comstock, MassElectric) to install a US&S Microlock.
Score one for US&S.
It'll be the first such install on the system, I think. I hope it is well recieved. Of course, you could spill your coffee into a model 14, and after drying out it would be fine...
How many levers did the Bergen St. machine have, 20 or so?
The bid price was to the tune of $25 Million. That's like
a million dollars a lever. For that money, signal dept. could
haven taken an old model 14 from storage at 215 St, replaced all
the lever knobs with solid gold pieces, and still come in under
budget.
I dunno. Maybe this is one of those "change everything" contracts
with new signal heads, track relays, switch motors, etc. That
would bring the price more in line with reality, though you gotta
ask why bother to change all that stuff if it's working fine.
I mean, Queens Plaza was one thing. A whole bunch of new tracks,
switches and signals were added, and it would have been a pain
to add on to that model 5 machine (do you think anyone is still
around who could engineer a new locking chart for the bed?)
But Bergen St? The TA has delayed repairing that interlocking for
years in order to make it the pilot project for microlok.
> How many levers did the Bergen St. machine have, 20 or so?
At least 24, But a lot of the heads are bagged. I'll check tonight on the way home.
> The bid price was to the tune of $25 Million. That's like
> a million dollars a lever.
What was the famous quote?
"Just multiply $50,000 by the number of signal lenses"
> ...though you gotta ask why bother to change all that stuff if
> it's working fine.
Especially in a budget crunch.
> I mean, Queens Plaza was one thing. A whole bunch of new tracks,
> switches and signals were added, and it would have been a pain
> to add on to that model 5 machine (do you think anyone is still
> around who could engineer a new locking chart for the bed?)
I sit around coffehouses drawing them on graph paper. (It's a personal problem, I'm seeking help!)
> But Bergen St? The TA has delayed repairing that interlocking for
> years in order to make it the pilot project for microlok.
When was the fire? summer of 1999? Considering it was an unexpected budget item, I don't think they were sitting on the repair, I just think the bid process was long a drawn out, like they always are for both public and private agencies. MicroLock's not exactly a spring chicken, it's been around, right?
MicroLok has been around for a few years. I'm not sure who
the first customers were. Bergen St will be NYCT's first foray
into the world of vital signal processors. Unlike CBTC, I don't
think there is much doubt in the signal community that MicroLock
works and is fail-safe.
The quote was $50,000 per light bulb and appeared in an issue
of RT&S during the last year. That guideline seems to be biased
in favor of searchlight mechs and definitely against PL...perhaps
that is why the LIRR is allegedly changing? (see LIRR thread).
Bid schmid....In the "good old days", the signal maintainers
would simply go down there and repair or replace the tower.
I'll have to find out the scope of work. Those are A-10s?
NYCT has been phasing those out, for whatever reason.
Yes A10's
Tick-THWOCK-Tissshhhh.
I would be surprised if this upgrade did not lead to Bergen and or 4th Ave from being 24 hr towers. Add a few punches for the work trains to request lineups and they save people dollars after the whole thing gets the kinks out.
I dunno, but since 4th Ave is the G terminal, doesn't someone need to be there 24/7 to fill out paperwork, and adjust the departure times for delays and such?
Plus its hard to hook up route punches to a Model 14. ( Okay, you could push the buttons REAL hard, and they could be connected to some levers )
:-)
"How many levers did the Bergen St. machine have, 20 or so? "
The upstairs levers go to at least 24, so counting the crossover on the express, it was proabably 33-35 levers or so.
Microlock (TM) should actually make things cheaper. It's one of those plug and play systems that were designed to eliminate the rats nets of relays and wires that made up an old interlocking system. There is nothing really important about the system. Its only a microprocessor based interlocker and in todays digital age that is nothing special.
Most of the relay racks I've seen in pictures are wired with excruciating neatness.
Admittedly, Microlock is same-old-same-old, but its a notable step for the NYCTA to adopt this tech. The important thing is that it PROVEN technology.
I have the US&S catalog and while they still make Pneumatic switches, trip arms and position light signals, the only interlocking system they offer is Microlock (TM). So I don't think the MTA had much choice.
It is a slightly big deal that the microprocessor-based system
is as fail-safe as a relay plant. Would you trust your railroad
to Winbloze 2K?
The point though is that Microlock and other VSPs have been around
for a while, they work reliably, and since they are merely processsor-
based implementations of existing and well-known boolean nets
(relay equivalents), they are absolutely proven technology.
It's funny that NYCT has to have a "pilot project" with this, as if
there is some question as to whether it will work. Just do it.
CBTC, OTOH, is UNproven technology. Yet, NYCT's long-term strategy
doesn't seem to allow for the possibility of not using it.
I have a soap-box you could borrow...
Is it a vital soapbox?
It's five smaller non-vital boxes ganged together to form one larger soap-box-unit. If any one of the five changes relative position to the other four, they all "self-destruct in the usual manner"
But when will it be installed?
- Lyle Goldman
When they get to it.
The bid process is a long one. I know my agency that if there is only one response to the bid, that opens another can of worms and needs further approvals.
The bid process itself is over a year, closer to 18 months for that amount of money.
I hear that it will be controlled by the Jay Street tower. If true, perhaps this will end the conflicting patterns of F and G trains going to Bergen Street. It will be refreshing not to be held at Jay "to maintain even spacing on the Coney Island-bound F trains" and then be delayed between stations behind a G. Instead of being right behind the previous F, we end up right ahead of the next F.
The original plant could do exactly what you say. Jay St is on the model board, along with a good portion of the Crosstown line. The SB leaving signal at Jay was the first controlled signal of the Bergen plant.
So basically, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Department of Redundancy Department.
But someone will still have sit at Bergan and fill in the G's gap sheets, no??
Much of the southern section of the Crosstown line is on the new mosiac-style board in the glassed-in extension to Jay Tower. They can see the G's from there I would guess.
There needs to be a sign on the glass: "Supervision in Natural Habitat"
:-)
Not at night. 4th and Jay are still fairly close.
But the people in Carroll Gardens are better organized than those in Park Slope or further along the Culver line. They don't want to have to climb stairs to get to a thru Manhattan train at Bergen St.
The real insanity of the line, tho', is the way they built 4th Av/9th St as a local station. It shoulda been express, with 7th Av being local.
In hinsight that is true, but remember the IND was built to destroy the BMT (and IRT), so they wasnted to make it as difficult as possible to use. Unfortunately it renders the whole express portion useless. In addition, there should be a way for the local to go to Manhattan...having 4th Ave as a non-Manhattan stop is also nuts. The only way the express/local would work on that line is if they sent the V to Church. The G as a non-Manhattan train will drive people nuts at those stations.
Yes, but the ultimate plan was for the city to take over the private systems, so realisticly it was stupid of them to not make the 4th/9th station an express stop.
-Hank
They DO NOT need to send the V to Church. The people at the local stops along the IND portion do not need as many Fs as they have now, the F can be split into an F-circle that runs to KH all local and an F-diamond to Coney Island express (peak-direction only south of Church). Since there would still be Manhattan service on the local tracks, Bergen would not need to be an express stop.
Use whatever letters you like, but there is currently no way to send some trains from Manhattan onto the local track and others onto the express track.
And the switches at Kings Highway don't allow locals to terminate there anymore.
> And the switches at Kings Highway don't allow locals to terminate there anymore.
Yes they do. Many rush-hour local trains terminate at Kings Highway. The only locals that can't terminate there
would be ones that come from the Coney Island direction.
- Lyle Goldman
Sorry, my mistake. The switches there don't allow for all locals to terminate at Kings Highway and only expresses to continue past Kings Highway (as locals between KH and Stillwell). Any northbound train on the middle track must have been on the middle track at Avenue U, a local stop. If no locals continue south of Kings Highway, there will be no northbound service at Avenue U in the morning. (The problem is solved if locals as well as expresses run through to Stillwell, at the risk of merging delays and congestion at the terminal.)
Extending the V wont work as of now since the interlocking system at Bergen St is not functioning due to some fire. Either all trains from Jay St go express or all of them go local. The MTA will get this fixed. The question is when.
OK - When I was a teenager, I lived along that line, near Ft Hamilton Pky station. First it was the D train, than the F after the Christie Street connector opened.
The G terminated at Smith 9th from when the crosstown line opened in the 30's, right up till July 1968, when they started running the F express (rush hours only) during which time the GG was extended to Church Avenue. This lasted only until the mid 70's when the cutbacks during the City Fiscal crises reduced many subway services.
So for all but about 7 years the G terminated at Smith 9th and was turned at 4th Avenue. Now after all those years, and only on Saturdays, they turn the G at Church Avenue, but still drop the passengers at Smith 9th. WHY???
No one really answered that question.
", they turn the G at Church Avenue, but still drop the passengers at Smith 9th. WHY??? "
Are the stations between 4th and Church set up for OPTO? that wouldn't explain the extension, but it qould explain trains running light.
qould =would
D'Oh!
If the "G" can operate OPTO Saturdays from Continental Ave. to
Smith/9th Streets, why can it not run OPTO 4th Avenue to Church Ave.?
There are island platforms from Forest Hills to South Brooklyn.
They only have to hang stop signs and boards. >G<
:-) Sparky
I dunno, but isn't there a qualification issue as well? After the signs are positioned at the most inconvieniant position for customers, don't all the TO's have to become "OPTO-qualified" for the stations concerned?
Enlighten us, o' B-Division motormen...
Hi all,
If you haven't already noticed, the "archived" messages are now available in the main database for each "talk". There's no need for a separate archive system now.
So, what you can do is pick a message range by date under the Change Display Options screen to see older messages. The normal viewing options that are now available are (posted within the last) Day, Half Day, 2, 3, or 4 days, Week, Two Weeks, or Month. The smaller the value you choose, the friendlier you are to the database.
This change has the following advantages: allows you to respond to older messages; no lag between the "posted within the last" time period and when I archived the messages; and I no longer actually have to remember to archive the messages!
The site database is now MySQL (upgraded from mSQL) which is a lot faster and allowed for the archives database to be kept "live".
Enjoy,
-Dave
p.s. the "really old" subtalk messages are still available at:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/oldsubtalk.cgi
That's pretty cool. I guess a few people had discovered that on their own because we've been seing some old threads pop up here and there. Sometimes some of the old posts are relevant to current talks....
While on a Manhattan bound 7 express this morning I shared the window with a kid, whose father was there teaching him about the subways. He said he worked at the Woodside tower, pointing out "his office" as we approached Woodside.
It was nice to see a kid into trains, and the kid was extremely dissapointed to see all the abandoned trackways for the Queensboro El train. "they should still run trolleys over the bridge" the kid said.
They got off at Queensboro plaza where the kid wanted to go on an N train to Manhattan. I said "have fun" as they left.
Hopefully they got to ride a slant through the 60th street tunnel.
If we can teach young railfans to stay railfans, the world will be alot better place. :-)
Yes, we need more recruits on the war against the NIMBY's! That was a nice thing, indeed. I think the kid got the right idea over the trolleys over Queensboro. Though, doesn't the tramway provide for that? has anyone ridden on them or something? It seems scary!
I think the tramway is closed for repairs. Something about needing something with the cable. Now that the F train goes there, I have a feeling the tram is out its way out.
The tram is running again.
It always amazes me as to why they never removed all the extra structural steel at Queensboro Plaza that used to be used for the bridge trolleys. The station severely needs a makeover, and possibly make it less of an eyesore. Since most of the steel existing is very much load-bearing and holding up much of the station, it would require a big re-design on the structural steel system. But it would be nice to get rid of some of the unsightly extra steel, and open up Queens Plaza to a little more light.
>>> It always amazes me as to why they never removed all the extra structural steel at Queensboro Plaza that used to be used for the bridge trolleys <<<
I think you are confused. They paved over the bridge trolley lanes for added roadway. The extra steel at Queensboro Plaza is from the 2nd Avenue El.
Tom
You sent me back to the historic map section of the site with that one. I see there is a connection from the 2nd Ave El over the Queensboro bridge, can anyone provide some info on it? Was it just a spur/shuttle or did some trains begin there and go downtown (or uptown)? And did the trolley cars run at the same time?
Once upon a time:
Some trains going north (not south!) on the 2nd Ave El could make make a turn at 59 St and went out to Queens via the Queensboro/59 St Bridge. The route now used by the upper level car lanes. Some of the trackage can still be seen at either side of the Bridge. Trains could then go to Ditmas Blvd or to Main St. The El was discontinued in 1942.
2nd Ave El trains used Willets Pt not Main St as their terminal on the Flushing Line.
Were the IRT El and Subway cars the same size?
Yes.
The IRT was built to the elevated line lengths and widths at the time.
So maybe the 2nd Ave El trains went to Ditmars or Main St.
Yes. Both the 2nd Ave El and the 42nd St. IRT subway could go to either Corona/Flushing or Astoria. And the Queens IRTs had a physical connection to the other IRT lines.
:-) Andrew
And the Queens IRTs had a physical connection to the other IRT lines.
Until the track going acros the Queensboro Bridge tp the 2nd Ave EL was torn down in 1942.
I'd guess that 2nd ave el trans did not go to Main St. because they were wood and Main St was underground; likewise perhaps too many trains at Main meant congestion so wood trains would turn outdoors. My thought. Size wise the Manhattan el cars were a little smaller than IRT subway cars. But the rooves were higher by 6=7" in the case of the newest 1902-11 cars the rooves were a foot higher [than subway cars] IRT subway cars to this very day 51 feet long, the oldest Manhattan el cars were around 45 ft. and the 1902-11 standards were 47 ft. But former subway "Composites" were used on the els, these also 51 ft. long so any IRT subway cars, and Hudson Tubes too could run on the els.
I'd guess that 2nd ave el trans did not go to Main St. because they were wood
That didn't stop the BMT gate cars and Q-Types from running to Main Street.
IRT el cars were a little shorther than the subway cars, 47' vs 51'.
IRT el trains terminated at Willets Point while BMT el trains terminated at Main Street. I believe that this was do to the amount of wood in the IRT cars. The BMT el cars had somewhat more steel in their construction or so I am told. I can't verify this though.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One of the arguments for saving the 2nd Ave El was that Flushing riders would keep one-train access to all of Manhattan. I believe this worked for a while, but ultimately the el was torn down.
But with the IRT subway going thru the Steinway Tunnel to Manhattan people from Queens were able to access more trains. It's all moot at this point.
>>> But with the IRT subway going thru the Steinway Tunnel to Manhattan people from Queens were able to access more trains. <<<
You seem to forget at that time there was no free transfer between the IRT, BMT and IND. A free transfer at Queensboro Plaza between the IRT and BMT was instituted when the 2nd Avenue El was abandoned in 1942. There still was no free transfer at Times Square until 1948.
Tom
Still it must've been something to take a train from Flushing across the bridge and straight into Manhattan, versus the current setup.
The 2nd ave El should have never been torn down, it should've been modernized and Queensboro Bridge should have been equipped to handle heavier trains. If the 2nd ave el was still there, the Lex would not be overcrowded!
...Queensboro Bridge should have been equipped to handle heavier trains.
The Queensboro has been undergoing an archtectural striptease to reduce its dead and live loads because of structural problems. The latest reconstruction, started in the 1980's, has resulted in removing one automobile lane and a pedestrian path. Even so, nine of the bridge's 10 roadways should be used at one time. There were loading restrictions for both the El and trolley tracks (car weights and spacings), while both were operating.
If the 2nd ave el was still there, the Lex would not be overcrowded!
If the Lex were operating closer to its designed capacity, or at service levels of fifty years ago, the Lex would not be overcrowded.
If the 2nd ave el was still there, the Lex would not be overcrowded!
If pigs could fly.....
If pigs could fly.....They would commute the customers on the East Side.
I would do no such thing!
If you consider the money you'd be making.....you might consider it.
The 2nd Ave el, (or at least the third Ave)should have remained until a replacement subway was built. This way there would have been more of an incentive to build the 2 Ave subway, in order to remove the el. By getting rid of the el before there was a replacement, took away the push to build the subway (along with financial problems). But I still feel that if one of those two els survived longer, no one would have allowed them to remove it before the subway was there to replace it. Of course there would have been alot of people pushing to remove the el from the street also, and what would have been their solution also...the 2nd Ave subway. You would have had both groups pushing for the subway...the transit advocates, and the people wanting the el removed.
You brought back memories with that one. I am now 85 and living in Florida. I remember riding the 2nd ave el which ran from South Ferry to Willits Point. It did not go on to Main Street. The BMT el cars went on into Main Street. The BMT ran trains from Queens Plaza to both Astoria and Flushing as the tracks were not the same gauge with the IRT. I did not live in New York too long but I rode those trains all day for a nickle.
>>> The BMT ran trains from Queens Plaza to both Astoria and Flushing as the tracks were not the same gauge with the IRT <<<
You may be confused or are confusing others. The track gage was the same on all BMT and IRT tracks. Most BMT car bodies were wider, so platforms had to be cut back further. The BMT cars that ran between Queensboro Plaza and Astoria and Flushing were the same width as the narrow IRT cars.
Tom
Wasn't there a large gap between the car and the platform? I guess they weren't as concerned with safety back then.
>>> Wasn't there a large gap between the car and the platform? <<<
Why would there be a large gap? BMT width cars ran where the station platforms were cut back for them and IRT width cars ran where the station platforms were closer to the tracks. Wider cars could not run on IRT track. Narrow cars could run on BMT track, but never did in revenue service. This is the same thing that exists with the present A and B Divisions.
Tom
Oh, that's where I misunderstood, I thought the IRT sized cars were run on the same tracks as the BMT sized cars. I still am confused then about how they shared service on the Astoria and Flushing line. I remember hearing that the stations were "shaved" off when it became part of the B division fully. So how did both the IRT and the BMT both use these lines, did the BMT use narrower cars just for these services?
The answer is YES ... Q cars were used between QBP and the outer reaches ("Q" for "Queens") and the standard-sized BMT cars only ran into QBP from Manhattan. From the QBP facilities, the narrower cars went to Corona and Astoria between the BMT's Q's and the Steinway cars on the IRT side of the world.
Thanks, that clears it up. BTW, on a sort of similar note, were the Myrtle Ave el cars narrower than the rest of the BMT, and did those stations (Bway and south) "stick" out further? If so, wasn't there a gap at the "normal" stations like Central and Knickerbocker, etc where both the Nassau bound trains and Myrtle el cars ran together?
The Q's had a "step plate" on the doors that protuded a bit, about an inch or so above the platform ... there's a picture here that might show how the "problem" was dealt with in less litigious times:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-q/bmtq13.jpg
>>> there's a picture here that might show how the "problem" was dealt with in less litigious times: <<<
And as you can see from this picture when the Q types were operating out of Queensboro Plaza they did not have the added step.
Tom
Nor when they operated on the Third Ave El.
Yep ... that's correct ... the little "trick" allowed them to run on the Myrtle. The lower end had the normal elevated car platform edges while north of Broadway, the standards ran with their requirement of "subway width" ... so to reduce the 6 inch gap for the Q's, they put on those nifty shin kickers. Stand too close to the edge of the platform when a Q rolled in and your feet hurt all day. :)
But out where platforms were cut to (ahem) "IRT width" the cars fit nicely.
If you ran them today, you'd have platform conductors repeating "Watchyerstep, watchyerstep" ad infinitum, litigation notwithstanding.
That issue may well have been the REAL reason behind the Myrt's demise. The cars ran nice and snug with the el platforms but where the MJ joined the M, I can see that it could have been a problem. But yeah, they'd have none of that today.
Thanks, that clears up a question I did wonder about for a while. BTW, that station at Metro sure changed alot! The wooden platform is gone (it burnt in the 70's I think), and there is an empty field to the left.
Yep ... I'm glad I had the pleasure of riding the Myrt before it died. It was interesting how they managed to accomodate both the Q's and the standards on the north end - that's how they did it. Now that others have shown that the Myrt modifications were a non-standard "cob job" that makes it all the more interesting.
You ought to see the gaps between LIRR cars and the platform edge on Track 1 at Flatbush Avenue!
A long ... long time ago when I worked at WLIR-FM, used to take that train out to Hemphead ... dipped if I can remember that but I'll take your word for it. :)
I hadn't in awhile, rode a diamond Q from 57th to Brighton and back again. But I was in the mood and got on the diamond Q at 57th.
Pretty quick ride down the Broadway express, those slants just dust the local stations by.
Had to slow for some track workers around 8th and then on the bridge.
At Dekalb we were held for a few minutes for a connection to the N train, also a slant.
After that the ride was fairly quick and pleasant along the Brighton. Then at Kings Hwy I see those dreadful red flags again, on both express tracks. The train will run on the local track to Brighton.
I get off and switch to the Manhattan bound side. Kings Hwy in that area looks like a major commercial district, and a nice area, but I'll explore that another time.
I have to wait a while for a Manhattan bound diamond Q because there's only one track and it was behind the gleaming beast.
But even leaving quite a few minutes behind that circle Q, we had no problem dusting it by the time we got to Church.
I decided to rest and sit down on the ride back. Everything went normally until just before 34th street. We start to slow down as there are yellow signals ahead. Then a big whoosh and the train comes to a quick stop. The T/O said that a signal that cleared went red, and we got tripped. Believe it or not after all the times I've rode the subway this was my first BIE. The T/O radioed in that he'd have to go down to the roadbed. I guess he had to push the stop arm down and investigate what happened. It only took about 5 minutes and we were on our way.
I feel bad for the guy, isn't it TA policy for anyone who gets tripped by a signal to have to go "downtown".
I guess every T/O experiences this once in a while. I did not see what happened (I was not at the window at the time) but can signals go red all of a sudden from clear (green)?
Yes, If he sayed that the Signal flashed on him he has to chack to see if the trip arm is still up. The worst thing now is that a Signal Mantaner MUST open up the signal to see the working and sit there for 24hours to see if it happen again, or was it just the T/O saying flashed. My friend who is a Signal Mantarer told me this is whats done.
Robert
I went to the KatManDu parking lot in Trenton Monday in hopes of seeing the RBBB circus train leaving Trenton bound for Wilkes-Barre via Harrisburg (for a one hour stop to water the animals). From 6:10 to 7:25 AM, there was no circus train, but I saw a good variety of passenger equipment: AEM7, E60, Acela Express, HHP-8 (Amtrak) and Silverliner IV and AEM7 (SEPTA).
I added photos of ten of these trains to my Webshots "Around Philly 5" page.
What's up with this? Good photo.
Thank, My first photo on the board. I think that the R62 was one of the cars that Derailed after the G.O. about two mouth agao on the 7 line.
Robert
I'd guess it's a fake.
I stand corrected, it's not a fake.
No it's not a fake. I had a work train out of CIY when I saw it.
Robert
Where was this photo taken?
#2154 7 Flushing Local
Based on what's been said in this thread, it would appear to be 17 track in CIYard (that's between the West End ramp and the Inspection shop).
I saw it a month or two ago from a passing train. I'm not entirely sure, but I think it was on an N between 86th and Stillwell (during one of those weekends that the N filled in for the W in one direction so that section of track was accessible to the public).
Getting some new trucks from the truck shop?
Due to the derailment, all the R62A's that actually went on the ground had to go to CI main shop. One night as I was going north at 36/4, I saw the CI transfer consisting of a few redbirds, a few R62A's and a few more redbirds all on the same train going south.
That aint nothing new:
1. Ive seen the 4 line R62 couple to the 4 line R33.
2. Thats an R62a not a R62.
3. That train is back in service on the 7 line. This must have ben awhile back.
That aint nothing new:
1. Ive seen the 4 line R62 couple to the 4 line R33.
2. Thats an R62a not a R62.
3. That car(2154) is back in service on the 7 line. This must have ben awhile back.
Both the R-62/62As and Redbirds have the same H-2-C couplers. Not sure if they're coupled only iron-to-iron or actually run in multiple unit. New York City Subway Cars has a photo of an R-62/62A coupled to an R-21 during a light move.
Well, the end is near for the Howard Beach-JFK Station as we know it. The southbound temporary platform (also decked out in blue) is now in place, as is the makeshift staircase located at the extreme south end of the new southbound plat. Conductors on Far Rock "A" trains now open up on the "off-side" at Howard Beach. I suppose knocking down the existing station walls won't be too far behind.
More glass panes have also been added to the Howard Beach AirTrain terminal. Stay tuned.
Mark
Speaking of which, i noticed the other week there - they're running on one of the old LIRR tracks as a temp thing, it looks. or at least, the rails looked old. Anyone know?
How old are the oldest revune track rails in the subway system, anyway???
I was taking the LIRR out to Freeport this afternoon when we stopped in Woodside. I looked out the window and saw a train of Redbirds on the #7 line. What the hell happened?! The gray paint on the top looked like it was peeling off and the red sides looked no better. It brought back chilling memories of the last days of the Low-V trailers and the R-1s in the seventies. I wonder if the MTA is letting the old cars go to wrack and ruin before they assign them to the scrap heap. If so, it's a dirty shame because they deserved better.
E_DOG
I guess the TA can never win. A number of years ago they painted a few R27's to allow the system to become 100% graffiti free. They were roundly criticized for doing that. Obviously, you want the TA to repaint R33/36 cars which are soon to be reefed? Isn't that a waste of manpower and money to paint a car and scrap it shorty thereafter?
maybe if they were taken care of better .........!!!
I think this is a WF redbird problem, only. It seems like the WF 'birds are not as maintained as the ML 'birds.
Dewd ... it was the 60's and 70's that done'em in ... it's a MIRACLE that they lasted as long as they did given the complete absence of serious maintenance for nearly 20 years during that time. Most of their mates on B division are just as bad even with the benefit of stainless instead of LAHT metal ...
Now that I've had many opportunities to go to Manhattan since December, I just wanted to say that I like the V. I usually get on the E at Jamaica Center and when I go to midtown Manhattan, I usually need to go down 6 Ave. I can transfer to the V-- normally not crowded-- at Queens Plaza by walking across the platform. Before, I would have to switch from the E to an equally crowded F or take the E to 7 Ave and take a B or a D downtown. Then again, I am one of those with a fondness for the underdog.
Let your feelings be known here!
Some people prefer a less-crowded but slower train over one that's faster but more crowded. The V's just right for them.
>> Some people prefer a less-crowded but slower train over one that's faster but more crowded. <<
In my case, though, the V doesn't slow me down apart from the time I might spend waiting for it at Queens Plaza. The E, V, F, R, B, and D make all stops to 34 St anyway. So jumping from an E to a V at Queens Plaza doesn't slow me down on that account. On the other hand, if I don't think a V will be arriving at Queens Plaza within a few minutes, I sometimes still go to 7 Ave and switch to the B or D. There I have a choice of two trains both heading the same way.
FINALLY!!!!! SOMEONE WHO LIKES THE V TRAIN!!! the V train is the best new train to ever hit the subways!got these stupid critics and morons on Queens Blvd cursing it out,ridiculous.they just dont know a easy smooth ride when they see it!they all have a one track mind and that equals "Express".i dont think its that they're ignorant,they're flat out a bunch idiots who were born without brains and MUST make their commutes a fast one cause thats all they know.
I don't think the V is bad. It gives the local stations DIRECT 6th Ave service, whereas they would have to transfer or wind up on Broadway, which isn't the end of the world, but now it gives them more options. Take the R if you want Broadway, or the V if you want 6th.
I don;t mind the V at all since it is not as crowded as the E and F but I hate the R46 cars. They smell like piss-rock like a boat and they're dull-those suckers have to go to the scrapper.
Give me an R32 anyday over an R46.
#3444 V 53 St Local
Amen, man. Those Brightliners can outlast those R46's anyday. Do the R46's have any nickname like the others or what?
the Motormen call R46 the Cadillacs. everyone loves operating them. matter of fact u say the R32s are better than R46s, but at least on R46 u dont have to walk thru the ENTIRE TRAIN to turn a E to a R lets say. all u gotta do to change it to a F would be, destination A, 212 enter. then code 7. then it would say F 6AV CULVER LCL, F TO CONEY ISLAND. if u wanna change it to E to 179, u gotta change the WHOLE TRAIN. takes tooo long! not to mention i am 6'4 with size 17 shoes. now u tell me which cab i am gonna like more. a Transverse cab or a R32 cab. if u say R32 cab, ima say,
IS THAT UR FINAL ANSWER????????????????
R46s are good cars. they are even gonna be overhauled and given AC motors. they will last for a LONG time. i rode them as a kid, im now 19 years old still riding them, and if i get into transit, i will be able to retire with them STILL HERE probably
But you can't read an LCD side sign when the train enters the station. You can read the roll signs. As a passener, I like the R32 more, for that and other reasons, even though the R44s and R46s are the closest class type to what I am used to back home.
I too like the R46 (not the R44 though). They seem to give a smooth quiet ride. I think railfans nickname them Rhinos.
I like the R44/46 class there my favorite in the B division. But i like the R46 better because their quieter and give smoother ride then the R44. Also the R46 brakes dont squeal like R44 brakes. Only thing i like about the R44 is the window guardes by the door that they have. They were on the R46 but were taken out when they went through their overhaul. Anyone know why they took them off of the R46 but left them on the R44?
Adam
Actually, they were removed from the R-44 cars during overhaul but put back soon after. The current windscreens are held by vandal-resistant frames, unlike the originals. For some reason (money?) the R-46s never have gotten windscreens back.
David
I dont understand why they couldn't make LCD signs on the R-142/R143 be as easy to program as the LCD destination signs on the R44/R46. They shouldve just made it the same way. Have everything seperate. So lets say you can have the signs up but turn off the annoucements why does everything have to be tied in together?
I don't like the V train, as I think it's put too much strain on the E line for crowds going to 53rd street, and also inconviences G passengers. I think the old service pattern was better.
As for cars, I think the R-32 is a good fit for the E, as the R-46 is for the V. The R-46 is good for the V as they have lots of comfortable seats, good for selling a train like the V (which I don't like). The R-32s are perfect for the Es, as they are probably the best trains in the system for handling crowds.
Ehey should give E trains a very very bad train even maybe an old bumpy nostagia. V trains should get a R143 or R160 so people can enjoy the smooth ride so more passengers go ride. E might attract more railfans though...but there aren't THAT much of us cuz we're special. =D
They should give E trains a very very bad train even maybe an old bumpy nostagia. V trains should get a R143 or R160 so people can enjoy the smooth ride so more passengers go ride. E might attract more railfans though...but there aren't THAT much of us cuz we're special. =D
If the V has put too much strain on the E, then how is it that E trains are slightly emptier now than they were at the beginning of December?
And if you still don't like the crowds on the E, you have another option if you're going to Queens Plaza, 23rd-Ely, Lex, or 5th.
>> but I hate the R46 cars. <<
And the railfan window is usually blocked with some sort of film or something. That isn't the route's fault though.
From the railpace website:
AMTRAK LOCOMOTIVES FOR SALE: Amtrak has placed six FL9 locomotives for sale. The units, constructed by EMD in 1957, have both diesel and third-rail capability. Amtrak has also placed two CF7 1500 HP locomotives, five GP9 1750 HP locomotives, two GP7 1500 HP locomotives and two SSB1200 locomotives for sale.
-Mark
What's the length on those FL9's - I have a small back yard!
I'll take 2.... I'm sure they'll fit in Coney Island Yard :-)
-Mark
that's right, they have 3rd rail shoes! Now, what about the height? You could use them to revive the Culver Shuttle. Ditmas to 9th Av, Via Stilwell Ave and West End!
I think you'd have to retrofit them with a steering wheel. Most of the culver trackage is gone but if you can steer it, you can make it a surface line maybe. :)
Actually I meant travelling the length of the Culver and West End lines to get between the two points connected by the shuttle. ...As if the El's could support an FL9 and some Horizons...
:-)
Just teasing ... one of my favorite questions over the years in various cabs was "where's the steering wheel?" Amazingly, even some adults have asked that one. :)
"where's the steering wheel?"
Isn't that what the handbrake is for?
I think the most fun I could possible have operating at Shoreline would be to give an ENTIRE tour containing 100% WRONG information.
And then hit myself upside the head, muttering "Take the pills, Tiger!"
It's why I mainly work as foreman of the trench digging subsection, Comm.& Signal Dept.
Heh. Well, one of your guys from the 3/4 tonners can tell you what an incredibly bad idea it would be to turn me loose with a megaphone up yonder. When I did the TA thing, there was a BIT more of a sense of humor. I woulda shown up for the gig wearing dark shades and a cane getting into the cab after tapping at the doors, the storm door, some legs and then ease into the cab, sending the whole car bailing out the winders as it lurched forward. Heard the story in schoolcar of someone who pulled that number and I hear they're STILL telling that story in schoolcar about how the TA has no sense of humor. :)
I imagine that'd go double for Branford.
There was the thread on this board a year ago about the "Blind" T/O on the M with the cane....
To paraprhase "it ISN'T a cane, it's so I can reach the punch buttons" ... yeah, that was STILL a great story since the individual was (fortunately) never personally identified in public and subjected to public ridicule, it made for one of my all-time favorite stories here. I *live* for inside humor like that. But I remember a tale of a guy in school car who did that as a joke one morning and had his asp handed to him for doing it. ANOTHER great story though.
Jesus, what are they going to use for MoW service now? Oh wait, that's right, they don't have any money for MoW.
58 feet 8 inches, coupler to coupler
Since the LIRR gave up its 3 FL9AC's which are now waiting its fate at Croton-Harmon, they can buy 3 for spares, and rebuild the C-1's as a special train to Montauk to which they are possibly planning.
Wasn't the LIRR also looking into some Amtrak coaches to replace the old parlor cars they used to have? Do they still have Hampton Reserve service. WHy would someone pay extra to be in the same sort of coach everyone else is in?
"WHy would someone pay extra to be in the same sort of coach everyone else is in?"
1) Elbow Room.
2) No Roudy Kids.
That is enough
No, they can rebuild the C-1's completely with the airplane type interiors (seats and armrests) to make them like the old type parlor cars. Also, they just have to do some exterior markings to make them such along with being in the 3000 series (3001-3010). If you look at the differences between the C-1 and C-3, the windows are larger on the C-1's, the doors are 2 split window, different restroom placement, no digital announcement screen and announcements, darker interior, different coupler (Ohio Brass the same as the M-1, M-3 and NYCTA R-44 and R-46) and being a 2-car set instead of a single to account for some of the differences.
The question that *I* answered was "Why Pay More to ride in a car that was jsut the same..."
Yes, a nice parlour car would be great and could collect more money, particurlarly if you had a steward service "Orange Juice" and some nice sandwhiches or something. The LIRR Parlour cars that I have ridden on were no bargain, since the seats while bigger were much more uncomfortable than those in coach. AMTK continues this tradition in it's parlour/lounge/observation cars, mostly on purpose so that people would circulate back to their seats so that others may also use the lounge cars.
Elias
That was tried last month. Amfleet, which got at least as far as Jay, were found to be hopelessly incompatible with the DE/DM engines.
Amfleet, which got at least as far as Jay, were found to be hopelessly incompatible with the DE/DM engines.
"Great" engines the LIRR bought.........
Send those FL-9s to the LIRR. Their DE/DMs are not doing well. (as always)
When LIRR had the 3 RLW FL-9's, their MDBF was around 1,900 miles.
They are also selling 3 E60MA's. #'s 605, 606 and 607. Amtrak has listed no minimum bid for any of these locomotives so maybe a subtalker could walk away w/ a piece of history.
Greetings, all...
I'm happy to announce that, after a long gap, my Nth Ward site has been updated.
First and foremost are the new message boards. The Graffiti Wall and the Urban Transit Forum have been resurrected from the dead, while the Architecture Forum is brand-new. All forums feature an upgraded version of the WebBBS script, which includes some safeguards against the off-topic spam I was dealing with in the past. Among those safeguards: 1) Anybody who wishes to post a message must create a profile, and 2) The profile must have a valid e-mail address. Follow the link to "Forum Rules / FAQ" for information on how to create a profile.
A quick description of the three message boards:
Graffiti Wall: A general discussion board where all are welcome to discuss a wide range of issues, or to simply keep in touch with me.
Architecture Forum: Where to discuss all aspects of architecture, design, urban planning, and current issues in the design community. This would be a prime spot to discuss elevators, skyscraper design, and new plans for the WTC site, as opposed to clogging up SubTalk with such things.
Urban Transit Forum: The place to discuss all aspects of public transportation, with a particular focus on mass transit and transit design. Very similar to SubTalk, but with more of a focus on Chicago transit.
Also, I've stripped out some of the perpetually "under construction" content on the main site. At one time I envisioned the Nth Ward as becoming the premiere independent website about urban life in Chicago. I had some great ideas in mind for the site, but just didn't have the time or energy to follow through. Also, with me planning a move to Philadelphia soon, it would be rather difficult to keep a Chicago-themed site current from 770 miles away. For now, the Nth Ward is essentially a personal homepage, but I may expand its mission into something more ambitious in the future.
As always, feel free to let me know if you have any questions or comments.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
David -
Good to see you've been working on your web site again. I hope all is well with you and your upcoming move.
-- Ed Sachs
I've read a lot of articles on the Second System but I have not come across any mention of this. On the A/C south of B'way/East NY (Junction) are two bellmouths/cutouts in the tunnel walls. One for the southbound (1tk.) and one for the northbound (2tk.). They don't go far into the wall and appear to be in the vicinity of Pennsylvania Avenue. Pennsylvania Ave. could have been the route for a new line. This could have been part of a later plan since this was one of the later built sections of the IND. Maybe this proposed line was to rival and then eliminate the L line to Canarsie. Just like other parts of the IND were to do to other elevateds. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I think it was the start of a proposed Jamaica Ave subway line. I read that in "THE HISTORY OF THE IND". A green covered book which is out of print. But I think I saw a copy of it at "Penn Books". A bookstore in the passageway between the IND 8th ave line and the LIRR waiting room/IRT 7th Ave line at Penn Station.
I was looking at this map http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/1948_a.gif
It seems to show a branch off the 3rd Avenue el at Fordam road to the what I guess is the Bronx Zoo. Is that correct? Was there a spur at that point or is it just trying to show access to the zoo?
I believe, but am not sure, that the route used to run towards the Zoo, and then when they built the extention it branched off the other way. I could be wrong, but I thought i remember hearing that somewhere. I'm sure someone will correct me.....
The Bronx Zoo was served by 2 lines:
1) 3rd Av El by a short spur just past Fordham Road.
2) White Plains Road line by a spur just past the E177th St station(now E. Tremont Av)
I don't know the exact dates of service.
The Third Avenue line was extended to Bronx Park on May 21, 1902.
The West Farms line to Bronx Park was opened on November 26, 1904, but connected only to the El. The subway connection opened on July 10, 1905.
The White Plains Road line was opened as a shuttle from 177th using el cars on March 3, 1917. Subway thru-service would only begin on May 20, 1928.
The Webster Avenue El was opened to Gun Hill Road on July 1, 1917.
The Bronx Park branch of the Third Avenue line closed on November 15, 1951 with the rest of the line closing on April 28, 1973.
The Bronx Park branch of the West Farms line closed on August 4, 1952.
>>The Bronx Park branch of the Third Avenue line closed on November 15, 1951 .....<<
Gee, I was 9 days old when that happened.
I was being introduced to the world when the last 3rd Ave El train was leaving City Hall.
Chatham Square or City Hall,,, we can see you're a few years older or younger? Luckily I was old enough at least to ride the 3rd Ave El on its last day May 12, 1955, a week after my 12th birthday. !Yo naci el cinco de mayo! Wish I had done so sooner...I'd have been a regular had I known how much fun it was.
I used to ride the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave El with my father..my father's hobby was photography, and I've seen pictures of myself at 7 years old on the 3rd Ave El, even a short 8mm movie of me standing on the platform of 200th Street while a World's Fair car goes by :)
I remember being scared of the 3rd Ave El, because the cars were old and dingy and ominous looking, plus it was a rickety structure...it would really move when a train was coming..same with the Myrtle Ave. El in Brooklyn, we would take that to visit my father's godfather who lived near Classon Ave...ANOTHER rickety line.
Hi Ed,
I wasn't the last C/R to operate the last revenue train on the Bronx portion of the Third Ave. "L" but I was lucky enough to be the last C/R to operate the museum Low-V cars on the final fan trip on April 28, 1973. I was fresh out of school car and extremely nervous about what to do if anything goes wrong. I remember an RCI by the name of Johnny Hornak (I hope I spelled his name correctly) said "Don't worry about anything, I'll be with you all the way". What a great trip. I'm only sorry that there would be no encores.
Sincerely,
Bob
I had one fantrip of Low-V's but a few years previous, I'm glad you had a chance to run them in passenger service, at least on a fantrip.They were dandy weren't they; wish I had the chance to run them inservice on Lex and West Side expresses' wish I had he chance to run High-V's there, the MUDC's on the el..oh well, maybe if there's an afterlife.
I'm not sure if you know the guy, but Martin Begley was my Motorman on the last train on the Third Ave. El. back on April 28th, 1973. He was a Motorman's Motorman, pressed pin stripes, black silk hat and badge. Those were the days. Today, the ones that operate the trains don't need hangers for their uniforms; they're so crusty and dirty that they stand in the corner without any help.
Take care, Ed.
Yours friend,
Bob
No I didn't know Mr. Begley but I know what you mean by the garb.If nothing else crewmembers do wear a uniform now; I think you can share memories of what some of the cool cats who brought the revolution to work with them in the 70's wore. It got so out of hand a notice was put out from on high about it Thankfully those days didn't last long. The IRT with most terminals in the Bronx and a lot of new, young help,was the worst.There was too little discipline or sense of authority, at least that's how I saw it. The B division was a lot better.
Just curious -- does anyone know if these stub branches has 24x7 service, or only part-time service?
-- Ed Sachs
You're coorect, the original line was the "branch" which was abandoned in later years. The line going from Fordham to Gun Hill (via 200/204/210) was a newer section.
I don't have them handy now, byt the "Tracks of New York" series put out by the ERA describes the situation well in one of the volumes.
Thanks, I thought I remembered hearing that somewhere.
Botanical Garden was the original end of the Suburban Line, or the Third Avenue El. The station was magnificent, with a dome resembling the adjacent Botanical Garden's main hothouse. There was also a wide pedestrian bridge eastward from the station across the New York Central tracks (several blocks south of their Botanical Gardens Station) to Webster Avenue, which had trolley service both to McLean Avenue in Woodlawn Heights and to the Westchester Trolley A and B lines on White Plains Road. Both lines ran north on Webster Avenue, with the White Plains road portion making the transition to White Plains Road itself across Gun Hill Road. The Third Avenue Elevated's bicycle cars brought many weekend riders to the Botanical Gardens station so that they could ride the local dirt roads in the pleasant countryside.
The elevated line that later crossed the New York Central tracks and ran northward to Gunhill Road and thence eastward to White Plains Road was the "spur". Third Avenue elevated trains that did not terminate at Botanical Gardens ran all the way to 241st Street and White Plains Road. The El used the west pocket at that location. The White Plains Road line had dual third rails and dual trippers north of Gun Hill Road.
Sorry I don't know how to create a direct link, but this article is quite interesting about the future of inter city
rail
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/04/business/04ROAD.html?tntemail1
<<
All over the country, ambitious new intercity rail projects are being envisioned, often by states in partnership with private industry. In California, speedy rail service between San Diego and Los Angeles is going to be extended up to San Francisco. In the Midwest, work has already begun on a big high-speed rail project that will link Chicago and other cities in nine states. In Florida, plans are advancing for a high-speed link between Orlando and Miami. In Texas, there's talk of a high-speed link between Houston and Dallas.
At the heart of this new activity is a growing awareness among transportation planners that business travel demand in the United States is, at least, somewhat similar to Continental Europe, where a vast network of national high-speed train systems has nearly eliminated air trips between cities less than 400 miles apart.
>>
Now this is the type of stuff I like to hear!
Before the elimination of double letters in ’85,did the side destination and route signs on the R16 to R38 class cars look the same as today (for example, instead of (R) qns blvd/bway/4av, it said (RR) Astoria/bway/4av)? If so, when were they changed to replace the original signs? Thanks for any info,
B63Mike
The R-32s and R-38s originally had the same information as the R-1/9 side route signs; i. e., N/Broadway Express, AA/8th Ave. Local, etc. The R-16s followed this theme, but had number routes on their curtains: 14/Broadway-Brooklyn Local; 15/Jamaica Express; 15/Jamaica Local, etc. The R-27/30s originally had a combination of original Southern Division title and "Broadway", thus you had Q/Broadway-Brighton Express; N/Broadway-Sea Beach Express; T/Broadway-West End Express; RR/Broadway-4th Ave. Local, etc.
More like the route letter and Manhattan trunk route, that's it, the all thing color-keyed. RR was Broadway Local
Mike: Most of the R-16s that I remember only had numbered routes for the BMT Eastern Section. After Chrystie Street they were equipted with a new roll signs which had all (or most) of the lettered route in about fifteen different route colors. The R-32's had both IND and BMT route letters but did not exactly duplicate the IND R 1-9's IND routes.(No B,DD,FF) before Chrystie Street.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Plus, they had the never-used MM in green....found that one day in 1983 in a rollsign-changing mood...confused me then, still don't get it now where its terminals would have been, and what route it would have taken, except for the obvious Metropolitan Ave. terminal.
I sorta think it would have been a rush-hour Chambers to Metro. Ave special, like the Broadway Brooklyn Short Line...
Any ideas from the board?
AFAIK the MM was intended to be a rush hour-only service from 57th St. to Metropolitan Ave. via the now-unused Houston-to-Delancey connector.
Ah...a route made possible by Chrystie St.
Makes sense, thanks.
Under that scenario, the KK would have run to Broad Street (during QJ-era) or Coney Island (afterward).
No, i think the original idea was to have both the KK & MM service 6th Ave and the Broadway el. perhaps the low ridership of the KK by itself defeated this plan.
Tony: The MM route was intended to run between 57 St-6Av and Metropolitan Av on the Myrtle Av Line. It never ran as such but every morning two KK trains ran from 57/6 to Metropolitan and laid up in the Fresh Pond Yard. I rode this service and they did indeed carry KK signs. The train was composed of R 1-9's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The KK went to Broadway Junction/ENY normally, right?
Or was it one of those Eastern Division services that had multiple terminals?
Actually the KK ran between 57/6 and 168 St-Jamaica from 1968 to 1972. There were two p/i from 111 St with additional turns at Atlantic Av,Eastern Pkwy and Rockaway Pkwy. As well as the aforementioned Metropolitan Av runs. If you would like a detailed service history of both the KK and K look up a posting that I made on October 21,1999 at 20:21:01. If its not there e-mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com. Post is titled "A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE K AND KK SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Thanks for the info guys. How did the side route signs look between 1983 and 1985?
B63Mike
The 1983-88 side signs made no mention of a route other than it's trunk line designation:
A 8th Ave Express
B Ave of Americas (6th Ave) local
G Brooklyn-Queens crosstown local
J Nassau St. local
They were vey similar to today's redbird side signs.
So, why is it today that the R32 (and presumably R38) side signs for the (G) read "Queens Blvd./Crosstown"? I should think that "Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown" would have it covered.
:-) Andrew
Maybe that's why the R-32s aren't assigned to the G. Incorrect roll
signs for M-F 0500>2030.
:-) Sparky
Maybe so that people would think it is a crosstown train going along Queens Blvd.
The #4 line has all R62's with exception of a few R33's. We all know that the R62's are coupled into 5 car sets. Now with a few cars destroyed in the Union Square wreck in 1991, you have cars 1436-1440. I know that 2 of them were scrapped due to being destroyed. Is this set in a 3 car set, are they in singles, or is it set up as a 6 car set in other pairs? Now I am not including R62A's, because I already know what they consist of, I just want to know the R62 situation.
For the set 1436-1440, only 1438 survives. Also because of the same wreck, 1435 is also retired. 1438 replaces 1435 in the set 1431-1435.
Offically 1435, 1436, 1437, 1439, and 1440 are retired. They are not in service anymore.
Chaohwa
Just a reminder. Concourse Yard hosts B-division cars. Sometimes R62s stay there. Jerome Yard is R62's official home. Calling R62 Jerome fleet is much better than R62 Concourse fleet.
Chaohwa
I sure Train Dude and his crews have enough of a challenge keeping the R-68's running in top shape as his yard does, don't go giving them more work!!!!
Train Dude and his crews are very proud of their maintanance on Concourse R68s. They have done a great job.
Chaohwa
I should of thought of the Jerome R62's and the Concourse R68's. My memory bank got screwed up. Thanks for the input guys, especially you Chaohwa.
Regarding the R68's at Concourse which is home to the B and D, major repairs take place still at Coney Island though, right?
Almost all the work required by the fleet can be done there. Wash, inspection the joe kinda stuff...
The cars involved in that wreck are at Concourse. I saw them on the Redbird Trip.
207th, not Concourse, my bad.
All cars but #1436 should be gone. 1436 remains at 207th St out of service. 1436 may live another day to be placed in the set of Cars 1366-70, which remains to be seen. Another R-62, Car 1369 was wrecked two years ago at Fordham Rd on the middle track. It currently resides at Concourse Yard at a bumping block.
I believe 1440 may have been scrapped on site the night of the wreck (can't recall for sure). 1437 sat in two pieces at Concourse Yard for just about 10 years until it was carted off in 2001.
1435 and 1439 were also at 207th St until last year. 207th St Yard got swept clean of cars that no longer served a purpose. 1435's end may have been (or will be) transplanted onto another R-62. Car 1370 needs a new end after the Fordham Collision.
-Stef
At about 20:50 yesterday, I spotted 8101..8105+8155..8159 passing through DeKalb on the SB N&R. Test run? a start of their expansion beyond the Canarsie line?
Just saw this morning at about 10:30AM a pair of IRT Redbirds one car number 777_? layed up on first layup track in front of a 8 car R-143
train
Any idea why these cars are there?
Thank You
Someone has posted yesterday. They are R26's 7770-7771.
Chaohwa
Here is the original post. You can look at its followings for details.
Chaohwa
There is an old abandoned train station (and I believe some track) that you can plainly see from the N.E.C. tracks when the train (southbound) is stopped in the Elizabeth station. Anyone here know what line that was part of, and where did it go?
Central RR of NJ later known as CNJ. The northern subsidiary of RDG (56% stock control) in turn 41% owned by B&O prior o "Aldene plan" today's "Raritan Line" trains terminated in Jersey City.
That was the Jersey Central Line that used to run from Bound Brook and west to Jersey City on the site of Liberty State Park. It also saw Reading service to Philadelphia and earlier than that, the B&O's "Royal Blue" used to compete for the Washington traffic.
Service on the line was reduced to a shuttle after CNJ and RDG trains were rerouted into Newark via Lehigh Valley trackage about 1967.
Part of the route is now the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in Bayonne.
Part of the route is now the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in Bayonne.
Freight service is still active along the route used by the HBLR and continuing further south past the current end of the HBLR at 34th Street. (The freight uses a separate track.) Of course, through service to Elizabeth would require removal of the supermarket and replacement of the bridge.
The Shore Line Trolley Museum (AKA Branford), East Haven, Conn. will host a Trolley Pageant on Saturday & Sunday, June 22/23.
We will be celebrating the early years of the urban street railway in America. Trolleys and elevated railway cars 100 years or more will be showcased with exibits, demonstrations and photo opportunities. Parade of cars representing the trolley era, 3 times daily. Admission includes unlimited rides,demonstrations and exibits. Info: [203] 467~6927,www.bera.org.
Big Lou from Brooklyn and Sparky will be operating
on both days. Stop by and say howdy.
Also you can email us privately.
:-) Sparky
Do members still get in free?
Karl,
Just present your current pass to the ticket office, we do have to
count your presense. Regular & Associate Membership includes
admission for the Member only. Family membership is for the
immediate family. For membership information: www.bera.org
:-) Sparky
Or email the museum at BERASLTM@AOL.COM
As soon as I find out what cars are in the pageant I'll post it. As of two weekends ago, they didn't know.
The Trolley Parade at the Illinois Railway Museum is July 4. Lots of fun but I won't make it this year.
The IRM Trolley Pageant (watch me work my self-serving magic!) should be pretty impressive this year. There are several pieces of equipment that have not been in recent Pageants, including:
Chicago Aurora & Elgin interurban #308, which will make its official operational debut on July 4th and will be available for rides after the Pageant;
Milwaukee Electric steeplecab #L4, which has undergone recent motor work and will join sister steeplecab #L7;
Chicago Transit Authority #6655-6656, which were not in last year's Pageant because they had just arrived back from the shooting of the movie "Ali" and didn't have the trolley poles put back on.
There are also rumors around the IRM Car Shop that other exotic equipment - including Milwaukee Electric container car #M37, Milwaukee Electric dump trailer #F208, and possibly even the fabled "Electroliner" - may make it into the Pageant.
All equipment assignments are subject to change without notice. But you knew that. :-)
Frank Hicks
The Electroliner????? Oooo... I'd definately make the trip out to see her running. What's the current status of the 'Liner? Last I heard, she had a nasty habit of blowing her motors.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
As far as we know, the 'Liner still has the nasty habit of blowing motors. We just haven't run it in about eight years, which is why you haven't heard anything about bad motors! The possible inclusion of the 'Liner is just a rumor but, since it does actually have four good motors it can run on, it is a possibility. You may not want to get your hopes up, though.
Frank Hicks
Thanks for the info. Too bad I'm not sticking around in Chicago much longer... Otherwise I'd eventually like to help get the 'Liner restored to her former glory.
-- David
Chicago, IL
AFAIK the Electroliner has had bodywork done since IRM acquired it.
Yes - significantly so. It was returned to its true Electroliner configuration, not the heavily modified form it was in as a Liberty Liner on the P&W.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're right that IRM had to do a lot of body work to the 'Liner to restore it to its North Shore configuration. The biggest parts of this were to remove the doors that were cut into the center coach car by Red Arrow (its platforms weren't long enough to span both the doors in the ends cars), and to restore the street-level boarding steps and associated skirting. We still have at least one of the Red Arrow side doors that was removed... last I saw it, the door was under a small forklift preventing it from sinking into the mud.
Current work is focusing on one of the end cars, which has problems with rusted carlines and ceiling panels. The ceiling has been taken down and welding work has been done to repair the carlines. There is fundraising going on to buy new upholstery for the entire train, and of course the ever-present motor work is ongoing.
Frank Hicks
I have a copy of a railroading magazine from 1991 with an article on the return of IRM's Electroliner to museum operation. It began with a recollection of the final North Shore revenue trip on that same unit in January of 1963, and goes on to mention that both 'Liners had been patched up with more than 1000 pounds of Bondo over the years by the Red Arrow folks. There was also a detailed description of the amount of bodywork done at IRM, and that the interior still needed work. I saw the 'Liner in 1996 and thought it looked pretty good from the outside.
I also understand the Electroliners have true railfan seats at each end.
The railfan seats in the 'Liners are really nice. Those things have cramped little cabs for the motorman, but that means that the railfan seat is right behind the front window - no bulkhead, vestibule or anything in the way, you're right at the window. Must have been pretty neat to ride those things at 100mph+!
Frank Hicks
I remember riding in the railfan seat in the 'Liner, more than once, when they were in revenue service. And Electroburgers in the café car... I was just a young 'un, but I do remember!
Now if my father could just find the 4x5 negative that goes with the 8x10 he has of me on the steps of 709 in Milwaukee... I was small enough then that I don't remember that ride, just from the picture.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it's anything like last year you'll see stuff 100 years old, plus more recent items like a PCC or a BrilLiner. 1227/G or some other El/subway car/train may also be included, e.g. we have a operating Interurban that has first class & coach sections (mechanically she needs some work, but structurally she's in fine shape).
Mr rt__:^)
Would that be North Shore 709, per chance?
Steve,
Sorry to say, it would not be North Shore #709, those motors have
never been dried after the flood of December, 1992. What Thurston
was refering to was Montreal & Southern Counties #9.
But we want those in the area, to come and see what we have done
and are doing at Branford on June 22nd or 23rd. We'll be awaiting
your arrival.
:-) Sparky
You mean 709 isn't running anymore? Oooooohhhhhhhh nooooooooooooo.
I remember seeing it run back in 1980 during the August Trolley Festival. Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it out at the end of the month. October 13 will be the only chance I have.
Steve,
Regretfully 709 is Blue Flagged.
See ya in October.
:-) Sparky
"Regretfully 709 is Blue Flagged."
Just curious - what are blue flags used for at Branford?
At IRM, blue flags are placed in front of equipment that is being worked on during the time the blue flag is present. In other words, you put a blue flag in front of the car while you crawl under it, and then remove the blue flag when you go to lunch. If a car cannot be moved for mechanical (or other) reasons, it is red-tagged. A red tag is put on the car in an obvious location listing the defect, and in some cases stating the circumstances in which the car can or cannot be moved (for instance, if a car's brakes are bad, it can often still be towed around). It has been made clear to us that blue flags are temporary and are not to be used as red tags, which is why I'm curious as to what you guys do.
Frank Hicks
Frank, John is mis-using the term blue flag. The blue flag
has the usual definition at Branford. Besides protecting
a worker on, under or atop the car, it will be used to
temporarily prohibit movement of the car if a worker has left
the car in an unsafe state (e.g. the brake rigging is disconnected).
For longer term disabilities, there is usually a note affixed
to each controller.
709 has two motors cut out (low megger readings because of flood
damage) and bad string banding, so it is restricted to 5 MPH.
In its heyday, 709 could do up to 80-90 mph. High speed on the North Shore wasn't limited to just the Electroliners.
Did the motors on 2775 suffer the same fate?
Yes, the motors of 2775 are also in poor condition, but then again
so is the rest of the car.
The last I heard, we were volunteers, not employed professionals, so a term may be "mis-applied". I should have said OOS }Out Of Service.
I stand corrected.
:-) Sparky
The last I heard, we were volunteers, not employed professionals, so a term may be
"mis-applied". I should have said OOS }Out Of Service. I stand corrected.
:-) Sparky
Read your rule book Sparky, blue flag has to be removed by the person who put it there.
Kinda hard on some cars like the Yonkers Sweeper since the person who put the car there can't remove (in your terms) blue flag now can they??
;-P
Picky...Picky...everyone else is so ASSIDUOUS. Well no Merit Raise
this fiscal year. >G<
:-) Sparky
"Read your rule book Sparky, blue flag has to be removed by the person who put it there."
Just like the "lock out" or "tag out" rules that apply in industry (OSHA). Each supervisor or tradesman on a job puts his own lock on (the switch, valve, control or whatever) and he is the only one who can remove it. So you may see a peice of equipment with a device with several locks on it.
When the last lock is removed, it is safe to use the device.
I have seen varrious kinds of blue flags applied to reaiway equipment, and sometimes on the track in front of such a car to prohibit another untt from coupling up to it.
Safety First!
Elias
I will try to attend.
--Mark
Mark,
We will look forward to your joining us. Hence, we will have professional videotography of certain SubTalkers doing their thing.
:-) Sparky
I hate to remind you Sparky about a certain show (Public Access in Manhattan) you've appeared on while at BERA!!
Then there was that great shot of my butt for Transit Transit closing credits to roll over my large ase.
Me talking to "Rapid Rabbit", wasn't my thing. I stand on the side
and highlight the significance of the unit. I'm just the voice
in the background explaining. That was a poor representation of
myself, being interviewed. Hey I'm not the "bag". >G<
But I'll have to admit I missed your hindend on "Transit~Transit".
As for my comment to Mark Feinman and his videotography, don't pose us, just aim and record. :-)
:-) Sparky
Without sounding redundant, just a memorandum about this weekend at Branford...If you're going to one of the Bus Events, we'll look forward to seeing you on Sunday. :-)
The Shore Line Trolley Museum (AKA Branford, East Haven, Conn. will host a Trolley Pageant on Saturday & Sunday, June 22/23.
We will be celebrating the early years of the urban street railway in America. Trolleys and elevated railway cars 100 years or more will be showcased with exibits, demonstrations and photo opportunities. Parade of cars representing the trolley era, 3 times daily. Admission includes unlimited rides,demonstrations and exibits. Info: [203] 467~6927,www.bera.org.
Big Lou from Brooklyn and Sparky will be operating on both days. Stop by and say howdy.
:-) Sparky
If you've seen Spiderman, you've probably noticed that the very first scene features a train of WF Redbirds cruising along the concrete Queens Blvd. viaduct. They make a second appearance later on and as an added treat, the Subway Series cars are visible! I couldn't make out the lettering, but there was no mistaking the white banner on the car side.
I love the unmistakeably Queens scenery of the movie.
:-) Andrew
The bus scene was filmed in Queens near the 7.
Obviously... I wished I'd seen Spiderman! Maybe I'l get when it comes out for DVD...
It's still in theaters.
I saw a skell selling DVD's of Spiderman and other new releases today. He was selling them off of a card table at the corner of Houston and Varick, right by the Brooklyn-bound entrance to the 1 and 2.
And the r62/a's on the 3 line have a cameo
in "13 Conversations..."
Not being an expert, I was wondering if there is any info or photos on these interesting new express buses running on this express route from Midtown to Queens. I've noticed them on 6th and did a double-take.
Woops! Wrong Board
I meant to post on BusTalk
Sorry!
How about asking in BusTalk?
I know the NY Division gathering is on the third Friday. Is the NYC Urban Transit Club still meeting on the fourth Saturday of the month? And where are they meeting at these days?
Anyone find it slightly odd that the image of on the TA's main page is that of an R-110B. Do they even run them any more?
Has anyone seen these in passenger service lately?
I think I spotted a set at 207 St. Yard while on the recent Redbird fantrip.
Sharp sighting!!! R110B which had a battery box explosion at 180th that put two in hospital sits in the 207th yard. R110A sits in Pitkin. The R110B was undergoing 'ressurection' to make up for the lack of a R142 trainset until the 'accident.' We're grateful for the Grace of the Lord that the CIs and vendors survived...the explosion rocked the building, resulting in a whole new set of guidelines to service nickel/cadmium storage batteries. CI Peter
The R110B is B division, R110A is A division. I assume you got your letters mixed up.
Flatbush Terminal
Flatbush Terminal
First Posting In a While, Here Goes:
Now on the Property:
R-142As 7626-7630 (these had been delayed), 7651-7655, 7661-7665.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Yes, keep 'em coming!
George:
I am looking forward to your next update. Keep up the good work.
Destined for the 2 or for the 5?
you mean are they destined for 4. R142As for the 4 and 6 lines only. The R142s are for the 2 and 5 lines and possibly the 3 when all the redbirds are gone from the 2 and 5. Are these the first R142As for the 4? I hope so it would be nice to see some R142As on the 4. I believe the 6 got all there's now or are close to it.
Adam
My mistake. Somehow my eyes skipped over the A. I really need to get more sleep.
7626-30 and 7651-55 are out road testing as we speak.
-Stef
Cars 6951-60 have started doing road simulations for #5 service.
-Stef
Yes 6951-60 was doing simulations since Sun.
Are they road testing on the 4 line? If I'm not mistaken, 7651-55 should be the first five-car set on the 4.
I believe so, but I am unable to confirm this as of yet. Stay tuned...
-Stef
Will do. I'm riding the Lex today to go to Princeton Review, so maybe I'll see them there. Maybe. . .
I read on a post that the brooklyn trolly project resumed. my question is. will this trolly be for regular service or will this be a nastalgic run? i mean only running a few times a month or everyday? i say if it runs everyday people will treat it like they treat regular trains, and TRY TO DESTROY IT. with all the grafitti yuck. but i know that railffans would just love the ride. i cant wait. oh one more question any idea when it will be compleated?
IIRC, the plan is to provide Red Hook with regular transit service to Downtown Bklyn. As for being completed, that will probably happen right about the same time that the subways are completed.
For more info, you might search for posts by Bob D or do a Google search for BHRA.
Or, come to think of it, you might check this thread.
when did the term redbird first used? and with what car had the pleasure of being called redbird for the first time
The beginning of the end of the classic Low Vs began the day the R 29s arrived, the first true Redbirds. These and the Bluebirds (on the Flushing line) made the IRT 95% SMEE for several more years. The Redbirds are the last link to a glorious IRT past.
FWIW I was of the opinion that these cars were initially manufactured and built by the St. Louis Car Company....then later duing a major overhaul painted red...hence the name "Redbird". St. Louis Cardinals and Redbirds. Like baseball and apple pie.
That's a good analogy - St. Louis Cardinals/Car Company and Redbirds. I never thought of that.
I remember reading an article in the NY Newsday when they started rebuilding them in the 80's...they were called "Silverfoxes" because of the new paint jobs...I personally never heard the term "redbird" till I came onto this board.
You know, the term "Silver Fox" fell into such disuse that for a few years I thought I was dreaming that the term "Silver Fox" actually existed.
You are correct about the term being attributable to the SILVER roof and FOX red sides of the paintjobs, however.
IIRC, when the R-10s were painted green after overhaul, they were dubbed The Green Hornets -- a nice resurrection of the monicker given to the old BMT aluminum experimental built by Pullman.
"... term being attributable to the SILVER roof and FOX red sides ..."
Adam, good point !
Let have a trivia test, what's the origin of:
- Silverliners
- Silver Bullets
- Brightliners
- Strait Jackets
- Cadilacs
- Rinos
- Hippos
- Standards
- Q types
First person to get all nine right gets a 50 cent tour of a local bus depot.
Mr rt__:^)
NOTICE: I'll be off-line Fri., Sat. & Sun., so the quiz ends at 7 AM Monday.
Mr rt__:^)
As trainbuff said, the R29s were the first red cars upon delivery in 1962. I don't recall whether the TA called them "Redbirds" in the press notice but the August 1962 NY Division ERA Bulletin, they are referred to as "Redbirds."
Ah, but the real question is: did anyone say at the time, either verbally or in print, "Hello Redbirds"?:-)
Most of us were saying, "Bye, Lo-Vs." :(
And many were saying "you can put red paint on a bread box, but..."
Seriously.
No, they called them "Silver foxes", remember??
Tony: The "Silver Fox" nickname was used by the then TA President who I believe was David Gunn when the first R-types returned from the GOH in the new scheme. It didn't last very long and the cars quickly went back to their old moniker, "Redbirds".
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for confirming that..I actually never heard the term "redbird" till I joined this board.
Larry, do you have any idea about when the term "Redbird" began to commonly used to describe the class of pre-stainless cars, so that nowaways even the New York Times calls them that?
Up until the time I moved out of the City in 1972 none of the IND or postwar cars were called by names that I can recall, except that some called the R33 and R36 WF cars "World's Fair Cars," like the earlier Steinway WFs.
Far as I can recall you just called them by their contract numbers, "R29," not "redbird," "R32," not "Brightliner," etc. I think it was resistance to what was then perceived as silly TA public relations names.
I think that the "Brightliners" were the first post merger cars that had a 'name' from their birth.
The BMT had the Green Hornet and the Bluebirds.
The World Fair Cars (R33-36) came *after* the R-32s, and may have been called "Bluebirds" but this is not seen in my 1964 subway map that has a whole big write-up on the "World's Fair Special Subway Car" and that *would* seem to be the place to hang such a name.
As far as I know (and I *don't* know since I moved out of the city in '83) Cars of this ilk were only called "redbirds" (probably in homage to the old BMT Bluebirds) only after the GOHs.
I do remember that the 27s-30s were painted Pullman Green and had nice pink seats on the inside, and I thought that these were the cat's meow back in the early 60's.
I remember riding one of them to Whitehall Street when I joined the Navy in '66.
Elias
I remember riding one of them to Whitehall Street when I joined the Navy in '66.
I remember Whitehall Street, and it was probably R27s that took me there.
But when I actually reported for service, it was at Ft. Hamilton, and I treated myself to a taxi. After that, Sam paid for my transportation. :(
I probably rode on a train of R-27/30s from 34th St. to Whitehall St. on July 21, 1965, since those cars no doubt ran on the RR and QT lines. OTOH I vivdly remember transferring from what was most likely an N of R-32s to an RR of R-27/30s on April 30, 1967. The two-tone blue interior scheme caught my eye, and I found myself staring at the set of doors directly across from me all the way to Times Square. To me, those car classes were BMT cars since that's where they were initially assigned.
To me, [R27s and R32s] were BMT cars since that's where they were initially assigned.
Agreed. And more specifically, Southern Division BMT cars.
Absolutely.
Paul: I remember that when the R-29's first arrived that they were called Redbirds and this nickname carried over to the mainline R-33 and R-36s. The Flushing cars were called Bluebirds to differentiate them from the mainline cars. They also were sometimes refered to as the World's Fair car though the only cars officially designated so were the World's Fair (1938)-Steinways on the 3 Avenue El. I have also heard the name used to describe the Q's when they were rebuilt for the 1938 World's Fair and sported the Blue and Orange paint scheme.(Remember 1622 ABC).
The Bluebirds were kept blue however because the TA installed a car washer in the Corona Yard which they acquired second hand from the Bergen Street Trackless Trolley Depot. Mainline cars were not washed at this time and were intermixed with the older R-types painted maroon and olive green. Only during the early days of the 1964 Fair was it possible to see clean Redbirds when they ran on the Flushing Line before enough Bluebirds were on hand.
We always took pride in refering to cars by there R-numbers, R-17, R-33 and we even differentiated between the various R-1/9 type. It was a very serious faux pas for a young railfans to refer to an R-1 as an R-1/9 in those days. If we had to differentiate between the mainline cars and the Flushing cars we would say R-33 and R-33 World's Fair, or R-36 and R-36 World's Fair.
The oldest official document that I have refering to the cars nicknames is the pre-Chrystie St 1967 subway map which refers to both Bluebirds and Brightliners. I know that the R-38's were refered to as Silverliners but I don't recall where that name came from.
The Redbird/Bluebird distinctions were forgotten under a ton of grafitti, MTA Silver and Blue and sanitation white paint schemes.
The first rebuilt and repainted train of R-33WF and R-36WF entered service on the Flushing Line on May 7,1984. The new paint scheme was described as "Fox Red" and David Gunn referred to the cars as "Silver Foxes. Neither name lasted very long and all of a sudden it seemed that we remembered the Redbird name which has remained until the present.
For the record the first rebuilt Redbird train had cars 9356-7,9587-6,9570-1,9477-6,9333,9412-3(W).
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I guess I didn't pay enough attention to the TA's equipment names. I don't recall the R38/Silverliner thing at all--and as to Mr. Gunn's "silver foxes," we all (Brooklynites anyway) know that the Silver Fox was The Duke!
But you bring up an interesting point with the "refrigerator white"--I assume you mean the famous White Train that we all thought was the TA's most quixotic venture ever--but they pulled it through!
Paul: I didn't know that about Duke Snider but them I'm from The Bronx. I think that the Duke played for the Yankees for a year or two but I may be wrong.
Talk about being politically correct in those days. You couldn't be a Dodger fan growing up in The Bronx or a Yankee fan growing up in Brooklyn if you wanted to live to see your tenth birthday.
Yes I hated that white and black paint scheme which is still used on the garbage trucks. All it does is show up the dirt.
Red also seems to be something of a heritage color on the IRT. I believ the the Gibbs Hi-VMs and Composite were painted either in a red or burnt orange paint scheme in the early days.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I don't think that Duke Snider ever spent any time with the Yankees.
I think he did have a year with the Mets, and then with the Giants.
You are right, Karl, According to Baseball-Reference.com The Duke played for Brooklyn 1947-1957, moved with The Bums to LA, 1958-1962, with the Met's second year 1963, and finished iwth the Jints in 1964.
Someone who wasn't around back then could not possibly appreciate how the Dodgers' leaving cut the heart out of Brooklynites. Though he's famously a Yankees fan, I've wondered whether that memory hasn't influenced Giuliani's desire not to lose the Yankees.
We say it, and people from other areas seem to agree with us, but non-Brooklynites really have no idea what a tragedy the Dodgers leaving was to the average resident of Brooklyn in those days. I may have only lived in Brooklyn for my first 21 years, but I worshipped the Brooklyn Dodgers during that time.
Karl:Although I'm a Yankee fans I always said tha a little bit of Brooklyn died when the Dodgers left town. Even after 50 years you guys can still name all the players.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
They COULD have waited until a couple of years after the Giants left; I don't think revenues were or would be that much greater in LA. Or was it that they thought they needed a new park. They deserted some of the most loyal fans in baseball. This is from a kid who lived in Yankee country when they left.
I guess I can't argue with the fact that Ebbets Field was too small. I haven't followed rhe politics of it too much but it's been said that O'Malley would have been happy as a clam with a sradium at Flatbush and Atlantic but that Moses blocked it and that cast the die for the L.A. move, or at least that it killed the last chance for the Dodgers to stay in Brooklyn.
IMO, the Dodgers' move was a seminal change for both baseball and Btooklyn.
For baseball, it wasn't the first time that a well-liked team had moved--for example, the Boston Braves to Milwaukee in 1953, but once the Dodgers went to L.A. and the Giants to S.F. it seemed to "tip" the trend from teams being somehow connected to their home towns instead of a bunch of hired hands playing with your cities' name on their uniforms.
For Brooklyn, it killed Brooklyn's existence as a City. No one from Brooklyn I knew ever said or thought of themselves as being "from" New York. This wasn't a snooty or local pride thing. It was just where you were from.
Nowadays, I don't think it's quite the same, Brooklyn patriots like BMTman and Pig notwithstanding.
Very well said Paul; indeedup till that time Brooklyn was still its own city. I guess even if I don't follow sports I like the Cubs because of Wrigley Field; Ebbets field was likewise a treasure. BTW for rail's sake I was riding the 1300 BU's [on the platforms of course] on Myrtle Ave. the day the Dodgers won the World Series....it was like no scenes of joy I've ever seen since.Great, even for a Bronx kid at the time. Regards from another old timer of the rails, Ed Davis, Sr.
Denver went bananas when the Broncos won the Super Bowl for the first time. I never heard so many car horns honking in my life.
Speaking of bananas, ESPN Classic will be airing Game 5 of the 1969 World Series next Monday at 9 PM EDT. You can bet I'll be taping it. I can still remember Curt Gowdy proclaiming "And the Mets are the World Champions!" as Cleon Jones caught Davey Johnson's game-ending fly ball.
Hi Ed. Good to see you again.
I guess The Bums finally winning a Series is one of those things where you remember exactly where you were. Our TV was on the fritz (again--it happened a lot in those days). We all rushed over to a neighbor's to see the end of the game. We were on top of the world! Then just two years later...:(
Duke was a sentimental favorite when the Mets acquired him in a straight cash deal. Oddly enough, he didn't get to wear his familiar number 4 until Charley Neal was traded to Cincinnati. Neal wouldn't give up his number!
After one season, Duke didn't like the prospect of another dismal season in last place and asked to be traded. The Mets sold him to the Giants on Opening Day in 1964. Talk about ironies. Duke knew he wouldn't be able to wear number 4 because the Giants had already retired it in honor of Mel Ott, and wound up wearing number 28.
AFAIK Duke is one of a handful of The Boys of Summer who are still alive. Joe Black died just recently.
Yes, I believe The Duke is still around. He would be 76 or so now. Last I heard he was happily farming avocados in the land of the Endless Summer.
Sadly, I recall an interview some years in which Duke said that he wasn't that big on baseball or on Brooklyn either--it was just a job. No Willie Mays he.
As an adult I can appreciate his point of view, but The Kid in me hates it! I mean, we even named our dog after him, for Chrissakes! (Duke Matus, 1950-1965).
But of course, all pre-R32 stock (except for the one R11 consist) were painted steel. And everything in either division from the R10 on, especially beginning with the R16, was pretty similar to anything we now call a "redbird" in every way except paint job.
:-) Andrew
West End Man: It was nice to meet you on the Redbird fantrip.
The term Redbirds was first applied to the R-29's. As befits a class act they arrived in style by barge and were given a welcoming salute
by FDNY fireboats on March 28,1962.They actually made they first run with passengers on the #7 line on April 30,1962. They then returned to the mainline IRT and began service on the #1 Broadway Local.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
larry thanks for the info keep in touch nice to meet you to
Hi guys. I distinctly recall the IRT equipment of the 1960's on the Bronx While Plaines Road lines as being exclusively grey (steel?) When were the Redbirds first assigned to these lines?
Once all the R142s/R142As arrive, will certain cars be permanently assigned to a line? If so, will the cars assigned to Lexington Avenue finally have the red digital bulkhead sign replaced with green? I know people should pay attention to the #, but with the 2 and the 5 sharing the same track in certain areas, I think color coding makes sense. -Nick
I don't know, the "L" on the R-143's was red, too...probably not.
I don't think the color really matters much, back in the early 80's when a lot of cars had the old 1967-68 colors people didn't notice...I mean, the pink AA never confused me as to which line it was, or the black J, or the yellow 6...
For that matter, one could argue that the A and the C and the E should all have different colors, since they share the same track in certain areas...then, what about the colorblind people?
The letter or number markings should suffice for color blind people. RTD adopted both letters AND colors for Denver's light rail system specifically for that purpose. Our lines are referred to as the C and D lines instead of the Orange and Green lines respectively, although either would be correct.
It's interesting to drive down Santa Fe Drive during peak hours nowadays. There is a steady parade of n/b trains all along the Southwest Corridor. I'll have to go for a ride just to see how many more new cars have been delivered. A month ago, there were three.
"I don't know, the "L" on the R-143's was red, too...probably not."
I don't think you can get the color gray in a digital form, and the L runs by itself (there is no express route). -Nick
But still, what about the A,C, and E??
All the same color.
Plus, it's the LETTER, not the color, which defines the line.
I don't think you can get the color gray in a digital form
Yes, you can. Look: GRAY.
Don't tell me your computer monitor is not digital! :-)
Interesting, Pig. I wonder how well that would look on the bulkhead; would people see it against a black background? -Nick
I was driving through Bismarck, and new section has LEDs in the traffic lights (for the red and green aspects, they yellow still uses a bulb) They are very bright and can be seen clearly. I'll bet all new signals will be LEDs soon.
In the photo store there were some bright LED flashlights for sale at about 8$ each. They came in Red, Gree, Blue, and White, but no yellow or orange. So.... I guess those are the colurs you are limited to. A display must use one or the other, for mising them would space them too far out to be nicely readable. Leastwise that is what I think.
Elias
Nobody said anything about the R-46 rebuilds with the green digital letters....
What does it matter what color the letter is?
"Nobody said anything about the R-46 rebuilds with the green digital letters...."
That's because there aren't any. There WERE some R-44s that got flip-dot signs in the mid-1980s (including the front signs), but those signs are long gone. I found them easier to read than the LCDs, but they really weren't around long enough to fade appreciably like the small end signs on the R-32s and R-38s.
David
>>There WERE some R-44s that got flip-dot signs in the mid-1980s (including the front signs), but those signs are long gone.<<
You must mean polka dots !! The dots weren't small like on bus signs, but did look rather goofy. I'm glad that idea tanked.
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anybody have pictures?
really ? Some R44s got flipdot signs back in the 80s that must of looked very strange . Well the hell did they put it where the front roll sign is now? I think it wouldve looked very stupid and goofy if you asked me i'm glad they shelved the idea.
It (the front flip-dot sign) was indeed where the roll sign is.
David
ahhh that must of looked hideous as all hell. Anyone have pictures of that i would really like to seem them. Thank god they put the roll signs back. Imagine if they wouldve kept it and extended it to the R46s too... o god that wouldve been bad.
Well, the point of the 1967 "spaghetti map" colors was to distinguish different routes operating on the same lines. The thing is, the NYC subway is just too big for such a system, and the result was an impossibly cluttered, unreadable map. The current color-coding just makes more sense. It is true that there are drawbacks, but overall it works very well. Personally, I think it sucks that newer route signs have all-but abandonned the colors. On Queens Blvd, it means the world to be able to distinguish one train from another in a split second. But the post-GOH R46 LCD's (say that five times fast) render the route identification system useless right when we need it the most.
:-( Andrew
The answer seems to be no.
Either read the sign, listen for the announcement (if they don't cut it off by closing the doors), or just get on the train and see where it takes you. All three choices work!
LOL!! :-) Unfortunately, I know there are some people in this city who don't pay attention and will end up on the wrong train. -Nick
Ideally there should be a bulkhead sign that could do red, green and purple on the A-division, and blue, orange, light green, brown, yellow, and gray (well, maybe white) for the B-division. But no they won't be doing anything like that.
:-) Andrew
Why not make an LCD screen up top and project a GIF image onto it via a fiber optic cable from a small onboard computer?
wayne
Hopefully by the time the R-160's are ordered, the price of full color LED's will drop, and the colors will be as bright as the red now used.
No changes can be expected in the Bombardier R142s except updates and improvements (read into that.) CI Peter
It keeps getting mentioned here that the R-16's spent their last days on the M....
How long were they there approximately? I never saw them there, and rode the J and M almost every day in the 80's.
They were there when I was in high school, because I rode them quite often around my sophmore year and there were quite a few there then. That was around 1985-1986.
I think they were just used as rush hour extras to Bay Parkway (if they made it there) when the M was moved off the Brighton to the West End.
Someone posted way back that there was a pull-apart in the Montague Street tunnel - they were in such bad shape.
Hey, at the Model Train & Transit Show in Kendall Park, alot of people said that the R16's, when new, was the best equipment on the Eastern Division.
I think they were just used as rush hour extras to Bay Parkway (if they made it there) when the M was moved off the Brighton to the West End.
They were on the M during the day also (I had them after school sometimes around 2:00, so they ran more than just rush hour). They ran before the West End switch in 1987 also I think, because I rode them in 1986 there, and into 1987. But you are right, they were probably more prevelent after the Brighton-West End switch.
I'm willing to bet that the R-16s would have held up better over the course of their careers had they been properly maintained. Granted deferred maintenance took its toll on the entire fleet, but the R-16s seemed to suffer more from it than most other car classes.
I think that because it was a minority 200 car fleet, which is small, and the TA had alot of bigger problems than maintaining a relatively small fleet. They had to figure a way to keep the R44's and R46's running, which were plagued with problems in their early days.
I was reading my ERA bulletins from the mid-seventies, and these cars were basically being put out to pasture then with the arrival of the R46's.
If they simply put them on the mostly underground and isolated Canarsie Line post-Chrystie, they would have continued their careers quite well thru the 1980's. I rode them all the time until November 1967, and never experienced a problem unless there was a lot of snow. ENY seemed to know how to maintain them. I don't know how often they cycled to CI for heavy maintenance during the pre-Chrystie era.
Simple. Broadway-Brooklyn over the Willy B., through the Nassau Loop to the Montague St. tunnel, then down 4th Ave. to the West End or Sea Beach to Coney Island.
The R-16s were fine through the 60s. Once they were shifted from yard to yard without being regularly inspected, problems set in. Gene Sansone speaks of the 6400s as the "million dollar cars" due to all the effort expended to keep them running.
Does any one remember the farewell to the R-17s trip? back in 1988? I just want to know the following, Does any one have the consist for the farewell trip? Also does any one have any photos of the R-17s on the # 7 line? Much appriciated. "R-17 6620"
Well, 6688 was the lead motor. There are a couple of photos of that fantrip in New York City Subway Cars, including a stop at City Hall Loop.
Dave also has a shot of 6688 in white on the Shuttle.
It's funny, but the last three times I loaded the nycsubway.org home page I got the exact same banner image! (In case you're interested, it's the one with the R33 train with car 8816 at 239th Street Yard.) Are you sure the banner image is random? (:-)
Just thought I'd share that with you.
- Lyle Goldman
So what?
Your browser caches the home page, therefore it does not bother to download a new one each time.
This has been the way things are since the rotating banner image on the home page began.
That's not it. I always empty my cache every night when I am finished with the Internet, and it always used to be different every day. I meant to say that in my original message, but I forgot.
- Lyle Goldman
Try sitting there and clicking shift-reload a bunch of times. Trust me, it's still random.
Just got =bmt=stillwell=stillwell-d-01-.jpg
shift-reload
Just got =slides=r142=r142a-7211e.jpg
shift-reload
Just got =slides=r142=r142-6616.jpg
etc.
P.S. if you just want to see all the banners, please don't hammer the server, there is an easier way:
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/banner4/
WoW, Thats a lot of relly nice photos!
Elias
Cool photos!
Just out of curiousity, where was slides=r62=r62-2325.jpg taken? I notice it's a train of R62's signed for (1) service, so I assume it's way uptown somewhere. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with that area to recognize the bridge or viaduct the train is on. I love all that steelwork, though!
I also like the shot with Coney Island in the background... Sure makes me anxious to get back to New York soon. The past two nights in a row I've had dreams that I was in NYC... Weird.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The R62 picture you asked about is the Broadway bridge as viewed from the Metro North station.
You're right. I guess it was a coincidence.
- Lyle Goldman
wow !! well i will say how glad i am that this site is on da' web!!
THANK YOU DAVID PIRMANN !!!!!!!!
now here is a nice X rated site ( mine ) 4 "U" ..."2"....all see !!
post this into your url first ...
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
***************************************************
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
*************
enjoy no pinching the laides with out a advance payment !!!
>>>>>>>>>lol !!!
What does that have to do with what I said in the message to which you replied?
- Lyle Goldman
I keep getting R142A 7375. It has been like that for a week now.
#7375 6 Pelham Local
i have my browser set to get the latest page every visit, but the banner thing doesnt change unless i hit ctrl+refresh.
I found this site on the LIRR forum:http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/lirr/lirr.htm Over 150 pics, only thing is its almost all MU's, no diesels. There's even a pic of the MP41's. Also a pic of MP54's junked in the same train junkyard as BMT Standards.
daves electric railroads site is a bomb anyway !!
the photos of the old pacific electric is my favorite !!
here is my site ..........oh well ......!
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
lol !!!
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/index.html
Those all look like the LIRR photos that were posted in Usenet last year by Joe Testagrose.
They may be, as Joe is a big contributor to Capt. Dave's great site.
Can anybody explain to me what the deal is with this one? Thanks.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It had brain surgery!
That's one of the virtually unknown gas turbine MUs that the LIRR ran for a while in the 70's. They were prototypes for an eventual fleet of them.
The experimental Garrett turbines. An experiment for non-electrified territory.
--Mark
Yes they are nice pictures, but they take too long to load, *and* I have a fast DSL line too!
Break it up and make more pages, or else just describe the photo and let people click on the text.
These free websites limit your bandwidth, and you will quickly exceed it. Rework the thumbnails so that they are no more than about 32 KB.
Elias
I'm still trying to figure out a good way to get to the Mall at Short Hills, as I have scrapped the 70 bus plan from Newark due to the super long ride through some not so pleasant areas (Newark, Irvington). I've always been curious to see how NJT's commuter trains are like. The NJT Summit station connects to the #70 bus, for a short ride to the mall.
The train is a few bucks more than the PATH/70 combo, but if it's less agrivation it's worth it.
However I notice service to Summit in the off peak direction is pretty poor, especially in the afternoon. The only train to NYC is the 2-6pm period is the 2:34pm train.
From Sea Cliff to NYC in that same period are 3 different trains. Maybe I shouldn't complain about the Oyster Bay branch so much. :-0
Dont know where you got the schedule from but according to the NJT web site trains run to NY from Summit every 30 minutes or so offpeak.
http://atisweb.njtransit.com/cgi-bin/railtt.pl
That link didn't work for me, but this one shows two trains per hour mid day from Summit, one to Hoboken and one to NYP, five minutes apart, so there's essentially one train per hour.
NJT timetables: click on "Morris and Essex Lines".
The web site must have been wrong then, I must have made a mistake or something. I am sorry.
According to what the web site said, I selected Summit on the M&E and NY Penn and between 2 and 6pm and that's what it said.
I knew something seemed fishy since Summit is on a major NJT line.
IMO, you should also apologize for dissing neighborhoods in NJ that you know nothing about.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have scrapped the 70 bus plan from Newark due to the super long ride through some not so pleasant areas (Newark, Irvington).
Good idea! You can never be too careful when it comes to armed robbers on horseback who come in to rob the bus.
I'm not sure why you're concerned, but from everything I've experienced, the cities of Newark and Irvington are no less pleasant than many of the neighborhoods that I'm sure you take LI Bus through on a regular basis. Especially from inside a bus.
Also, from what I saw on the schedules, there are plenty of trains to and from Summit all day long. During the time period your talking about, there's a 2:34, 3:34, 4:07, 4:37 and 5:34. There's also 2 additional trains each hour to Hoboken. Live dangerously. Take a train to Hoboken and catch a ferry to downtown.
CG
Someone suggested those were really bad neighborhoods.
I will still opt for the train, since I have never rode an NJT train before and am curious. As much as I like buses, I do like trains much better since they are faster and don't have to contend with traffic (and I hate traffic!).
The schedule I got from the NJT website must have been wrong or I made a mistake. I used the point to point scheduler, but have now downloaded the PDF and am able to understand it better.
As much as I like buses, I do like trains much better since they are faster and don't have to contend with traffic (and I hate traffic!).
You should stop hating everything. As a great sage once said a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away: "Hate leads to suffering."
So does anybody like traffic?? Perhaps NIMBYs. :-0
Well, on local streets shopowners love traffic.... while waiting for things to start moving people tend to stare at your billboards and ads!
While everybody hates traffic, you hate everything. If you don't hate something, you find fault in it in order to hate it.
NIMBYs often hate traffic, they just don't want their lives affected so that it can be relieved.
NIMBYs can hate traffic, they just don't want their lives affected so that it can be relieved.
Go to New Jersey Transit Schedules page for easy-to-read schedules.
(NOTE: This is a very helpful site not part of njtransit.com)
Monday Morning, I was riding a Queens-Bound "A" Express to Euclid Ave., and a unusual Bomb Like Sound occured between the Trucks and the Third Rail on a R-44, there were alot of sparks that lasted for atleast 5-7 seconds. I also noticed that a Manhattan-Bound "A" Express" going the other way was going pass at the same time of the Bomb Like Sound. Is this normal for Subways sometimes?
The same happened at Atlantic Ave at 6:40PM Thursday.
Atlantic Ave Q was a no clearance sign (metal) coming in contact with the thrid rail and the running rail at the same time...BOOM!
The sound you heard is normal. We call it "The Bomb-like Sound".
"Non-Life-Threatening Unscheduled Noise of Higher-Than-Normal Amplitude"
Add: "Of very short duration".
Well the train could have dropped a shoe.
As far as the "Bomb-like sound", what bulletin # is that? I missed it when I used the back of the bulletins on the board for printing paper at home. I saved 40 cents on paper costs you know.
Lemme see ... third chromium switch from the left, right above the left side enabler. :)
For those who were delayed on the Queens-bound A or C line yesterday,it was not due to 3rd rail problems. It was not due to mechanical failure. it was not due to signal trouble or switch trouble. It wasen't even a sick customer or a crew member needing to go to the bathroom. It was due to a Pit Bull on the tracks around Van Siclen Avenue. The 96 minute delay ended when the dog was tranquelized and removed - ALIVE Delay ended at 9:08 AM.....
Fortunately nobody got hurt. Those pit bull dogs have a reputation for hurting people.
I wonder how the pitbull was smart enought to not get hit by any trains, and not get electrified by the third rail.
The pitbull probably knew enough to flee any big thing that was coming at him. And probably knew enought to jump over the 3rd rail.
Would've been interesting if it tripped/slipped.
HOT DOGs - Get your HOT DOGS here!!
Hot Dog!
I think dogs are rather stupid when it comes to railroads.
When I was commuting on the LIRR there was never less than 30 dog carcases in various stages of decomposition on the tracks from about St. Albans to Jamaica Station.
When startled by a train they would run from it, but would not jump the running rails and thus escape to the side. Seems like they would panic and see the rails as an obsicle that they could not jump over.
Needless to say, they could not outrun the M1s on that line.
Elias
See: BBQ Pigeon anyone?
-- David
Chicago, IL
I just lost my appertite, thanks.
I'm going to the game tonight.
Will the D stop at Yankee Stadium, or do I have to change for the B at 145th?
There might be Uptown D trains running local from 145 to 167 streets just for arriving Yankee fans. Unless you hear announcments via PA or a conductor, wait at 145 St for the B. Consider the 4 train in case downtown you hear of any servive disruptions.
Just wondering, which one gets more ridership when there's a Yankee game?
The #4 without a doubt. I believe just because of its long lived fame. When you talk about the train to yankee staudium, its a given that u mean the 4, not the B or D.
Depends on the time. IF the D train that you are on comes in on the center track at 145th Street, change to the B. If it comes in against the wall stay on it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Any train on the wall track at 145th probably will stop at 161st. Any train on the middle track probably won't. Just use location (and announcements) as your cue. Ask the conductor if you're not sure.
I don't know where you're coming from, but if it's an A, just stay on it to 145th and go downstairs so you can catch whatever shows up against the wall. And if you're waiting for a D in midtown and a B shows up first, take it -- you'll probably beat the next D to the Bronx (the B only takes three minutes longer) and you know the B won't bypass your stop.
Those other guys who answered must not have Yankees season tickets. :)
Anyway, in my experience, on home game nights, the "D" is always local in the Bronx.
You guys know how to hurt a fella. My one seat ride to the yankees (sniff) gone for four years. My EXPRESS RIDE home on a Yankee Special (on a Concourse 68A), gone for four years.
Wahhhhhhh Wahhhahahah :-(
Boo-hoo-hoo.:-(
If it'll make you feel any better, I don't think they've run 7 expresses after Met games for years now.
Last time I was at shea on a Sunday, about 2 years ago, I caught an express that was waiting on the center platform. At Junction BLVD, as the train was leaving, and on the local track too, all the signals went dead as far as I could see, both directions. Both trains came to a halt with a woosh after moving a few feet out.
They didn't after the game I went to last year, which was a Sunday night (ended early Monday morning).
Im about 95% sure, but I believe during Yankee week night home games, the D is supposed to be local in the Bx. Im sure my B division counterparts can chime in here.............
I just got back from Minneapolis, and I was there two years too early. The Hiawatha Avenue light rail line isn't supposed to open until 2004, but I did get to see parts of it under construction. The bus system that is in place seems to be a good one, with lots of routes, frequent service, and incredibly friendly drivers (I have to say nearly everyone in the Twin Cities was very friendly). One saw my SEPTA shirt and told me he'd lived in Philadelphia for a few years. Another saw my CTA shirt and only charged me off-peak fare even though it was morning rush hour.
But I did manage to find some rails to ride. There is a historic trolley line run by the Minnesota Transportation Museum. The Como-Harriet streetcar once ran from south Minneapolis northward to the University of Minnesota, then turned east to end up in St. Paul.
Some of it was on private right-of-way, and a mile of it has been preserved and is run on weekends. The staff were very friendly, and were happy to talk. The supervisor is in fact an engineer on the Hiawatha light rail project, and told me all kinds of neat things about it, too. He told me there's even talk of a second line someday which would serve U of M and St. Paul...the Hiawatha line serving the Mall of America, the airport and downtown Minneapolis.
Now I just need some excuse to go to the Twin Cities in 2004...
Mark
Just wanted to know is how many R62A car sets are now on the #7 line & when will more car sets be arriving on the #7 line.
1676-1705 (Unitized) and 2111-2155 (singles) are on the 7 line now.
This equals to 6 train sets. There are more cars that are supposed to be on the way but what cars they will be is unknown at this time.
Hope this helps you out.
#2150 7 Flushing Local
On my way home at about 2:30am this past Tuesday morning (which at the time was still Monday night for me), while riding in the lead car of a Chambers-bound 8th Avenue local R-32 E train, I saw a strange consist heading downtown on the express track. While in the tunnel between 50th and 42nd streets, I caught sight of what was clearly a redbird, judging by the interior decor, running in tandem with us on the express track. What were redbirds doing in IND territory? Was there a late-night redbird fantrip nobody told me about? Turns out it was an OOS 6 or 8 car train. The first 2 cars were R-42's led by car # 4659. The 3rd and 4th cars were R-26 redbirds led by car # 7771. The rest of the train was made up of R-42's, the last of which was signed-up for L service. Lost sight of them by the time we reached W4 St. For a second, I felt like I was in the sequel to Jacob's Ladder, or at least a Twilight Zone where redbirds roam free on the B division!
Or just a 2002 NYC subway where they're in the process of scrapping them. I'd say they came from the (7), but I don't think any R26s ran there.
:-) Andrew
Do scrap-ready cars sit on death row in Coney Island? I figured if they were headed for redbird reefs, the train would have been going uptown. Isn't all the pre-reef stripping done in the Bronx somewhere?
Those were the R-26s en route to Canarsie Yard. That train must have taken the long, long way to get there if it was on the express track.
Sheesh! Just saw the post about the "Saved" R-26's destined for BMT school-car service, which these obviously were. If they were heading to Canarsie, that is a long route!
If that train were on the local track, it could have switched over to Houston St. south of W. 4th, then to Delancey via the unused Chrystie St. connector, over the Willy B and via Broadway out to Broadway Junction, then via the unused connector to Atlantic Ave. and on to Canarsie Yard. Voila!
But, of course, it was on the express track, so it couldn't do that.
This leads to the obvious question:
Did anyone spot a train of R-26's riding up the escalator at Broadway-ENY?
LOL
It is possible to uses switches before and after W4 to go from the 8th Avenue Express to the Houston Street line.
Are the 2 R16's still in Canarsie ?
No it isn't. The only switches are between the local tracks of the two lines. And the last switch from the 8th Avenue express to the 8th Avenue local is just north of 59th. Just south of 59th is a second chance, the turnoff to 6th Avenue, but that's it.
If there's one thing the IND skimped on, it was scissor switches. Or crossover switches of any kind aling 8th Ave. Go figure.
After 59th St., the next chance to switch from express to local is at Canal St.
What you saw was obviously a transfer with A Division equipment moving through B Division trackage.
While I don't know where the train was going, I can tell you that redbirds and R62/62A have trip cocks on the right side of the train because all signals in the A Division have signals with stop arms on the right side of the tracks.
Equipment in the B Division (R32 thru R143) have trains with trip cocks on the left side of the train because signals in that division have stop arms on the left side of the tracks.
In order for A Division trains to run on tracks in the B Division, they must be "sandwiched" between B Division cars otherwise those trains would not be able to be tripped by red signals, automatic or home ball, creating a potentially dangerous situation.
In order for A Division trains to run on tracks in the B Division, they must be "sandwiched" between B Division cars otherwise those trains would not be able to be tripped by red signals, automatic or home ball, creating a potentially dangerous situation.
I was on one of the "farewell to the redbirds" fantrips in August, 2000, where we had all redbirds on the B division. I know the Observation car was on one end, but I can't remember what was on the opposite end. I think it was an R-33 redbird. How come we didn't trip a signal on that trip (actually, I think we did on one or 2 occasions)?
Here's a photo I took at QBP at the end of the day when we crossed from the B division to the A division, and a much better photo by our webmaster taken earlier the same day at Stillwell.
The R-33WF singles (not to be confused with the mainline R-33's) have tripcocks on both sides.
And the issue isn't that you would trip a signal. It's that if you did pass a red signal, your train's emergency brakes wouldn't have been activated until the back end of the first car passed the stop arm.
You should have seen...maybe you did...the smorgasbords of trains on all IRT lines but the 6 and 7 when I worked there in the early 70's. In any train you could have a mix of aything from R12 thru 33. Sure made for lousy braking with 3 different types of dynamic-fade out in a train.On the 7 were oly the World's Fair R36 and single R33's. Pelham had married pairs with some R17's mixed in. You think that transfer you saw was amix! The smorgasbords I call them were in passenger service.
The IRT was notorious for smorgasbord trains throughout the 60s and 70s. As I've said before, I never saw a solid train of anything on th mainlines until after the GOH program, and then once I saw a train with TEN CONSECUTIVELY NUMBERED REDBIRDS! It doesn't get ant better than that, folks.
Tired of getting home from work and watching reruns??
Well here is the return of the SubTalk Field Trip.
The recent posting about redbirds on the BMT has got me thinking in doing at "R143 to the RedBirds" field trip.
How does July 25th (a day of PC Expo and SubFanning) sound?
We'll meet at 8th Ave and 14th at around 5:30pm and take the first R143 (L running at 4-6 minute headway then) to Carnarsie. We can see how the R143 and our T/O handles the famous timers. Ride straight to Rockaway Pkwy for some pictures of R26 7770-7771 on BMT property. We'll dine at the nearby McDonalds or Pizza or Diner and hop back on to Broadway Junction and see how the El "De"Construction is coming along.
Should have plenty of light and a nice simple Field Trip to start off once more (before I do the Staten Island one, later in the summer).
Any ideas or comments feel free to email me or post.
Thanks for listening.
Lou, we might even get a hotshot 'Transit Professional' as the C/R on our R143, if we're lucky...;-D
BMT Man,
Is the "Transit Professional" back on the "L"?
:-) Sparky
He goes where he is needed :-)
-Mark
Whom might you be talking about???????
-Mark
Oh some guy who collects fare boxes I guess....LOL!
BMT Man,
Yeah, that's the guy. Heard on the grapevine he wants gate cars
returned to the Dyre Ave Shuttle, so he can play with the farebox,
while being paid as a c/r. >G<
:-) Sparky
You guys are terrrrrrible.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually we're WORSE! ;-D
ANDEE,
We is BBBBAAAAAADDDDDDDDD. Put us all together and look upward. I'm 6'3" and I'm the small guy. >GAWD<
;-) Sparky
Yea, I know, Unfortunately I've met all these clowns.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yea and most of them were sitting at the same table in Long Beach.
A night to remember ... walking on the Board Walk with war ships in the distance while holding candles. I finaly got the wax off my pants.
Mr rt__:^)
Thank God for that.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yea...We get paid extra for fare collection. The hobby is good but the pay is better! :-)
-Mark
Mark,
You never had it so gooood. Not only do they pay ya, but they cloth
ya also. >GOLLY<
:-) Sparky
Lou,
I would love to join you for the fieldtrip...but is there any way we can do it a week earlier? I'll be away 7/22-8/4 :-( -Nick
Nick, We had you on our list of interested folks. If we can't work it out so you can join this one we have two more coming:
- SIRT .... in day light
- Beaches of Rock & Long ... when the sand & water warms a little more.
Also look for:
- Pilly ... all the colors, well most of them anyhow.
- Seashore trolley museum, maybe Boston too.
Thanks, Thurston! I'm back in CT now, so maybe I'll do "Beaches of Rock and Long" (or maybe I can get up to Boston..we shall see). :-)
-Nick
You're a month late. PC Expo is June 25-27.
If you meant June 25, I'll be there if my arms aren't too bogged down. They tend to get quite full at PC Expo.
I'll be there the 26th. It's a full day (25th starts late, 27th end early).
I have a draw full of t-shirts form past events, how about you ?
They're practically all I wear. Unfortunately, last year I didn't get a single t-shirt. My wardrobe needs expansion.
One year (1995?) I won a baby redwood sequoia. You should have seen the stares I got holding it over my head on a rush hour 2 train.
In years past some of the stuff was realy great. Now it's less interesting & less valuable.
I for one won't fight for a t-shirt or stand in line for an hour for an umbrella. Most of the sit down situations include a lot of give aways ... better cram for the test, because if you don't know the technology or something about the product line you'll walk away empty handed.
Mr mis__:^)
Sounds good to me. Are there enough R143s on the L to ensure we would get one without having to wait for hours? Two weeks ago I lucked into one and only saw one go the other way while riding the whole line inbound.
Well hopefully by the suggested date, enough R143 sets are operational.
And to clarify, it is July 25, someone inserted June 25 in a reply?
:-) Sparky
With the running times on the L, you shouldn wait no more than a hour before a R143 shows up, just stand at one of the island platforms and wait. Personally, I wait at Myrtle.
Mike, that's only true if Mark isn't horsing around with the electronic controls...holding up the Conga Line...LOL! ;-D
Reminder:
Our planned "R143 to the RedBirds Field Trip" on the L is scheduled for NEXT TUESDAY, that's J-U-N-E 25th.
The plan is to meet up at 8th Ave and 14th at around 5:30pm and take the "L" from there.
For those that can make it earlier I'll be happy to do a walk thru of the Flushing line from Main Street to Times Square. I'll be taking the first Red Bird out of Main Street after 4 PM. If we get one right away there should be time for a quick snack near 8th & 14th.
Bring your FUN PASS or be square.
Mr rt__:^)
Where exactly at 8th and 14th? Front (east/south) end of the L platform?
Why at the head end of the L station of course.
Seriously, there is plunty of room there for us to gather.
Mr rt__:^)
You need to ask a subway buff which end of the platform to stand at??
Back to school for you, class "Foamer 101" for you sir!!
Next Tuesday is June 18.
Hay if Lou can do it so can I ... sorry about that ;-)
Mr rt
Hey, Mr. T lay off the wacky weed, will ya?!
;-D
And this from the "King of misconceptions". And I was accused of
eating funny mushrooms, because the Mrs. & I saw a boat on Newtown
Creek Sunday Noon with a deck full of passengers.
I'm going to have to stop breaking bread with these guys, it maybe
catching!!!
Earth to Thurston, do land at the outbound end of the Eight Avenue
"LL" platform in 14 days on the 25th. My last ride on that line was
MLK day, after leaving the "2" & Big Lou & BMT Man and my set from
6th to Lorimer was a slant. >G<
:-) Sparky
Hay if Lou can do it so can I ... sorry about that ;-)
The date is in fact June 25th, the first day of PC Expo.
Mr rt
Two weeks from today 6/25/02 Tuesday, (as the cops say) "L Plat". If you can't figure out which end, its the one that doesn't end at a wall.
5:30pm rain or shine
Just a little correction to the topic of this post. It's 6/25 not 6/35 LOL
Just a little correction to the topic of this post. It's 6/25 not 6/35 LOL
Darn!! There's nothing on my calendar on 6/35!!!
This whole trip is jinxed.
Within six months, riders on the MBTA's Red Line could see animated advertising as their subways rumble through the tunnels of Boston. Between South Station and the Broadway stop in South Boston, tunnel walls might display what appear to be brief silent movies touting bottled water or running shoes.
The full story from the Boston Globe.
It sounds like that art display near DeKalb Avenue.
They already have one on PATCO on the eastbound platform of the abandonned Fraklin Square station. It is an ad for that bottled water that coke makes.
MARTA also has the same ad since last September. I'll try to get a video of it when I take your in-between shots you want.
Denasi is the water.
Son of Burma Shave.
Could be used to pay for SAS!
Really, 1 billion over 6 years is alot
From todays Daily News:
"In its dirty war against pigeons, the Transit Authority will be putting its top-flight weapon in more stations.
As droppings continue to create unsightly conditions at elevated subway stations, the TA will add more equipment to shoo — actually, jolt — the omnipresent birds from their perches and nesting spots."
For the rest of the article:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-06-05/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-153214.asp
I hope that the TA has E. Tremont Av. on the list for this new system. I hate having to step in/on poop whenever I leave the station.
I don't know, but I know Bay 50th Street on the W line in Brooklyn is on the list for the new system.
I see bird crap on the subway platforms every day? Is it really that hard for maintenance workers to clean it off the damn platforms, for Heaven's sake?
- Lyle Goldman
>>>...bird crap . . . damn platforms...<<
tsk, tsk...such lanquage, you should practice what you preach. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Could be worse! (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
Station cleaners are probably at a station for only 2 hours a day. And while they are there, they have to do other things while they're there. Pigeons are there 24/7.
Paraphrasing a NYC radio station:
"All Poop, All The Time"
One of them basic dichotomies of urban life. We protest for the rights of salmon in the northwest or whales in the ocean, but we try to figure our ways to fry our nearby feathered friends.
They'll be baaaaaacccck. The wars been going on as long as there were pigeons and roosting opportunities. Is this really worth $50,000 of our money a pop? You can buy an awful lot of Kentucky Colonel for that. :)
Bad news, guys ... a NUMBER of public buildings have "bird jolters" on their parapets ... doesn't really help much. A little, but not a whole lot. The birds eventually figure out how to avoid completing the circuit. The NYS Court of Appeals building in Smallbany had such a system as did a few others and there were still streaks of sheet. And you could hear the Bzzzzzp! Bzzzzzp! on the PA system in the building every time it energized.
Bzzzzzp! Bzzzzzp!
Good thing they don't have that system at Sing Sing...
It must be nerve-wracking enough there as it is.
Heh. Court of Appeals has had a recurring problem with pigeons - they call the thing a "bird shocker" and they've been through a number of them over the years with the same results - the pigeons snicker at one another and then dive bomb the wires. Eventually they get coated with ... ummm ... "insulation" ... yeah, that's the ticket. :)
I wish the TA luck ... if it works, MANY building maintenance people will be quite interested in a successful result. If there is one.
The high school I went to was laid out as a square with an open centre (due to the fourth side at the back being added in a late 1960s renovation which was what closed off the inside). Pigeons became a big problem for all the obvious reasons and because it was discovered that the accumulated pigeon poop was causing people's allergies and asthma to act up severely in the classrooms facing inside the square, especially for the teachers who had to spend the entire day instead of one or two classes in those rooms.
Bird blasting wire was strung up along all the window sills and other edges where they could sit and do their business. The only thing the whole arrangement was effective at was shocking people who'd open up the windows and touch the wires to see if they were live (a certain art teacher comes to mind here). I think it was during my last year there that they strung a huge net from the edges of the roofs to close off the square from above to keep the birds out. It worked well enough but it left the problem of pigeons perching on the roof edges and the sills on the outside walls of the building, particularly with the older section that was gothic style, full of ideal perching places. You can see a corner of Northern peeking out from behind the church in this picture:
The caption is mislabeled Queen & McCaul. Historical information on the picture - that's the Eglinton loop located on the northeast corner of Mt. Pleasant Rd. and Eglinton Ave. The Mt. Pleasant streetcar is long gone, an old folks home perches over the loop and the trolley busy that replaced it was abandoned about ten years ago and now it's a diesel route that's seen heavy cutbacks in recent years.
Has the TA considered using balloons?
I'm not kidding. A few years ago, I was a member of an organization that had a major bird problem in one of the trees in its parking lot. (It quickly got to the point that the organization had to pay for a car wash each day for each car that had a rented parking space in the vicinity of the tree.) Someone suggested filling balloons and hanging them in the tree. It sounded crazy, but it was a lot cheaper than any of the other alternatives, so it was tried -- and it worked instantly!
Nice shot ... but as for the pigeons, like I said, I've seen that stuff used and it does help a LITTLE ... but not a lot. Maybe we've got "new technology" here. :)
SHOCKING !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Just happen in subway station, there are angry pedestrians get dropping when they stand below the traffic holders.
Its not Just happen in subway station, there are angry pedestrians get dropping when they stand below the traffic holders.
If anyone has listened to Tom Lerher's song "Posioning Pigeons In The Park", there is a line in the ditty that says "It's not against any religion, to want to dispose of a pigeon."
#3 West End Jeff
In Syracuse, CENTRO uses ultrasonic BIRD-X units to scare pigeons away from downtown bus shelters. They seem to be effective.
Here I get myself in trouble again: the pigeons fly right into to 239th Car Barn and settle inside the R142s. So at noon sups get the delivery...'Chinese Chicken for Lunch.' That's the poop from the #2 line. CI Peter
Wouldn't it be better just to hire hunters and shoot them down to control the population? Hunters already do this to control game population like deer and vension.
I can almost imagine the cops running everytime someone calls about a man with a gun.
Nah, in the past year "man with powdered donuts" would have REALLY done the trick. Many a station has been closed for possession of confectioner's sugar with intent to sell ... what a strange world. As one who grew up with "duck and cover" this stuff's getting tired fast. You can only hunker in the bunker for so long before cabin fever sets in. ;)
You can only hunker in the bunker for so long before cabin fever sets in. ;)
You should know, you've been hiding in the sticks for quite a few years now... and we all know you're a bit feverish around these parts :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. But yeah, gotta come out in daylight for hours on end to moo the lawn and chase the bambis away from the hostas. Y'all got purty lips, boy. :)
'Hiring hunters to shoot down pigeons?' It was really crazy when I saw a rat go into the 239 car desk office and a sup grabbed me to kill a rat. I'll take the job...caveat emptor R142 0.45 calibre bullet holes...unless THEY want MY shotgun...12 gauge Magnum Buckshot exterminates pigeons. Car inspectors are utility assigned...WE do everything and I never turn down an assignment. Elephants and alligators in the tunnel...No Problem...a good Car Inspector can improvise...just takes a bigger bore. Tyrannasoruos Rex... go to the supply counter for a shoe paddle. To get rid of pigeons requires only to eliminate 'the food attraction' and to make these dirty birds uncomfortable and unwelcome. This is my work, this my new home, this is TA, THANKS ALOT. CI Peter
That's the spirit! (unless there's sarcasm implied in your post)
This AM I had a chance to speak at length with a T/O at 3rd ave on the L and have some breakign news:
1- 76 on the A line does exist! the tile is like Grant and has a diamond crossover and was intendffed for short turns.Two tracks, island platform.0
2- There are two more stations under Hillside Ave: 181 and Francis Lewis Blvd. The T/O said Francis Lewis is flooded and 181 is too close to 179.
Neither has tile but they ahce bare concrete walls and wall paltforms .
with two tracks.
3- The biggest breaking news-- the flyunder aon the Eigth Ave line near WTC goes to a never completed Worth Street Station on the IND! This station has two tracks and an island platform. IF the LIRR uses Cranberry Tube the LIRR will end here. This same T/O said the tube can handle 3 services and can handle 12 foot widse cars at 85 feet long.
Rolling Stock:
1-8133-8136 in service with 8137-8140 today on the L.
2- Some R62 A cars may become rider cars to replace all old riders due to asbestos concerns and a lawsuit which was filed.
3- R160 will resemblre R143 but without CBTC and without the balck front. The T/O said this is to fdistinguish between CBTC cars and non-CBTC cars. These will go to the A and N at first
4- R148- this may be the cares to be ordered for the 7 to finish reoplacing the redbirds. these will not have the red and black trim.
The best news yet- he will send me pictures and maps and I'll forward to Dave when I get them (assuming Dave will decide to put them up.)
Peggy has sent Dave some pages almost a year ago and they are still not up and the R143 updatres are not up either.
Pretty interesting! One typo though, I think you mean R-33 singles will become rider cars to replace a few of the older cars. Asbestos concerns? I guess the R-12/14/15 will wind up as part of the reef!
-Stef
I do not see how one coming from Brooklyn can get from the Cranberry tube to this imputed Worth St. station. The arrangements south of Canal would require that trains coming from Brooklyn have the ability to turn east onto Worth without crossing other tracks.
As has been mentioned here, the Feds would have conniptions if you had subway trains and LIRR trains operating on the *same* track.
Besides, the Cranberry tube is too narrow for LIRR cars. 75 foot cars are the longest that can be allowed through there, as the curves must be tken into account. 85 foot cars will just not get through. Also, how is the LIRR supposed to get to the Fulton line in the first place? There are IRT tracks at the same grade, and the BMT 4th Ave. lines are just below that, and the street is too close to the tunnel roof. Whoever came up with that one needs to do some footwork - check out the area, then come up with someting else, something that will not give the commuters who use the nearby subway lines headaches while this connection isbuilt - and I hope it never ges built.
Also, how is the LIRR supposed to get to the Fulton line in the first place?
I don't think it ever will. I also think some politician is trying to get their name in the paper for a cheap pop. Next fall on their way to being re-elected they'll be able to say:
"I supported mass transit!"
Besides, the Cranberry tube is too narrow for LIRR cars. 75 foot cars are the longest that can be allowed through there, as the curves must be tken into account. 85 foot cars will just not get through. Also, how is the LIRR supposed to get to the Fulton line in the first place? There are IRT tracks at the same grade, and the BMT 4th Ave. lines are just below that, and the street is too close to the tunnel roof. Whoever came up with that one needs to do some footwork - check out the area, then come up with someting else, something that will not give the commuters who use the nearby subway lines headaches while this connection is built - and I hope it never ges built.
In re: the abandoned stations. I think the T/O is pulling your leg.
I had that exact same thought.
Peace,
ANDEE
So did I, but I still choose to believe it anyway. It's more fun that way.
Anyone know about Myrtle Avenue on the BMT. I remember seeing that station ages ago but it seems to have disappeared. Was it paved over, torn down or what?
The southbound platform was removed to make room for the rearranged DeKalb interlocking.
The northbound platform is still there. Watch closely out of a passing Q train and you'll see the small signs on the station's pillars.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the Art Department of one of the local colleges or universities made a type of motion design (like the old comics that you would flip the pages and it would look like a motion picture). As a Conductor on the "D" train Manhattan bound I would be humored by the design. One in particular was a rocket ship being launched and moving horizontally.
Bklynsubwaybob
That's Masstransiscope. Unfortunately, it was vandalized about ten years ago, so the TA turned off the lights.
Thanks for the information. I didn't realize that it had a specific name. What a damn shame that it was vandalized; like it was bothering someone.
Bob
I doubt there's a seperate 181st St station, since the the stairways of the 179th Street station end past Midland Pkwy, which serves as 180th St. 181st St/Avon St is less than a block away.
:-) Andrew
Do not the lines continue a long way past the 179th Street station for the storage and relay of trains?
And on Two Levels too, layup 8 trains back there, maybe more if the tracks are longer.
Elias
The Upper Level has 4 tracks that can hold 2 trains each but only 6 trains at a time can be layed up. 8 cannot be layed up since two portions must stay clear at all times for relays (tracks 5 & 6).
The Lower Level also has 4 tracks but can only lay up 3 trains. 5 track is forbidden from having a layup on it (that is for relays as well).
So the upper level is longer than the lower level?
Or do the end at the same place, but the lower level needs more distance for the ramps?
Elias
The Upper Level is definitely longer than the Lower Level, but it's a few extra yards before the Lower Level "begins" as compared to the Upper Level. I would estimate that the Upper Level extends beyond the northern end of the 179 Street Station by about 1700 feet.
IIRC the line ends at 184th Place.
> assuming Dave will decide to put them up.)
> Peggy has sent Dave some pages almost a year ago and they are still
> not up and the R143 updatres are not up either.
Well since you're going to bring this up in public, you can tell Peggy that her writing needs a lot of editing before it's ready to post. Something I just don't have much time to do.
-Dave
Peggy can send it to me and I can do the editing...
-Hank
You mean that subwaybuff should tell peggy to send you the stuff for editing.
GR&D
Without some tangible evidence of any of these 'stations' it's simply not possible to just believe someone's word. Who is this T/O? How does he come by this information? Has he personally observed the stations, or is he basing his statements on "stuff he's heard"?
Back in the 1970s, I first heard rumor there was a station shell at Roosevelt. I knew a couple of T/Os on the QB routes who told me there absolutely was no such thing, and several of them said that the connection from 63rd Drive to the LIRR had most definitely been built but was just sealed off. Well, they were all wrong on both counts. Frankly, I won't take the "word" of anyone who cannot offer hard evidence -- meaning they can provide clear visual proof, and can provide some means for independent verification, such as readily accessible public documents or even arranging a tour.
I thought April 1st came and went already?
This AM I had a chance to speak at length with a T/O at 3rd ave on the L and have some breakign news:
1- 76 on the A line does exist! the tile is like Grant and has a diamond crossover and was intendffed for short turns.Two tracks, island platform.0
2- There are two more stations under Hillside Ave: 181 and Francis Lewis Blvd. The T/O said Francis Lewis is flooded and 181 is too close to 179.
Neither has tile but they ahce bare concrete walls and wall paltforms .
with two tracks.
3- The biggest breaking news-- the flyunder aon the Eigth Ave line near WTC goes to a never completed Worth Street Station on the IND! This station has two tracks and an island platform. IF the LIRR uses Cranberry Tube the LIRR will end here. This same T/O said the tube can handle 3 services and can handle 12 foot widse cars at 85 feet long.
And how does the T/O happen to know all this? My Urban Legend Detector is flashing yellow.
Mine if flashing lunar white. Slow down, or get tripped.
Mine is flashing lunar white. Slow down, or get tripped.
LOL, the trip has already happened.
Peace,
ANDEE
With all due respect, those first three items sound too good to be true. I agree with what's been said: we need some hard evidence. Otherwise, it's tabloid stuff.
i have a question:
Why will the r160 be non-CBTC? i thought all trains will be moving to this system eventually.
At the very least, they'll have space for the CBTC equipment. The contract calls for the cars to be in both 4-car and 5-car units. The 4-car units would go to the "Eastern Division." One plan had the 5-car units going to the E, which runs on the Queens Boulevard Line, which is expected to be an early recipient of CBTC after Canarsie and Flushing.
David
I wouldn't put too much stock in anything that Train Operator reported, beyond that R-143s 8133-8140 are in service, which is pretty easily checked.
David
It seems strange that they're going to order more cars for the IRT division when they replace the "Redbirds" on the 7. Does this mean that they may take some R-62As as you said and use them as rider cars? How many R-62As are they going to take out of passenger service to use as riders?
#3 West End Jeff
"76 on the A line does exist! the tile is like Grant and has a diamond crossover and was intendffed for short turns.Two tracks, island platform.0"
I'm confused....which end of the A did you mean, Brooklyn or Central Park West?
76th is "supposed" to be after Euclid if you kept going straight instead of turning towards Grant. There is no actually proof that it exists. It's sort of like a Loch Ness monster segment for Unsolved Mysteries. It does exist on a board, but there is no other physical or tangible proof that it exists.
When a train leave Euclid, first there are 2 tracks that go down and make a right for Pitkin Yard. Then there are 2 tracks that go up and make a left for Grant. There are still 4 tracks that keep on going. It's not a pic of the Loch Ness Monster. But it does prove something is there out of sight.
Douce Man, I hope you can prove this one day, finding 76th St would be sort of like finding out there really is a Loch Ness monster, etc. I don't know, sometimes I believe there may be something there, and sometimes I think ...no way. I may be almost 50/50 both ways, but I really hope it can be proven that there is.
Anybody know how much Kinko's charges for scanning an old map?
The alleged 76th Street Station is supposed to be part of the Fulton Street Extension of the IND Second System which would've taken the A train, had it not been routed only to Lefferts or the Rockaways, to 229th Street in Cambria Heights. The four tracks were to continue farther east, but if 76th Street is only two as this T/O says, that hints that the line would be ending way before Springfield Blvd.
Assuming we're looking at the same map (1939):
After Euclid there is a branch that goes to Lefferts. No turn off for Rockaway service. The other branch continues on what appears to be Pitkin Ave curving slightly southward as the road does now. As it approaches the Rockaway line, it runs crosses the area that is the racetrack or the parking lot. I don't know off hand exactly where was the racetrack before it was rebuilt in 1958. Also it turns off to connect with the Rockaway line. The route contines. It probably runs along Linden Blvd. At Van Wyck Blvd it crosses and makes a customer transfer with the IND line coming south from Queens Blvd. The line ends up at 229 Street.
Yes, that's the same map on the back cover of Stan Fishchler's the Subway. That same map is also available in the "Twelve Historical and Transit Maps of New York, Part II." My transit plans makes use of this extension, as nothing goes to waste in a scenario committed 100% in provided adequate mass transit. I'm sure the MTA has learned now not to provide provisions and talk about extensions that they have no intention of using.
I think it's a matter of NYC changing their minds about a particular route. Because of 1929 and later WW2 they couldn't afford to build a new subway line. So they connected their route to an El (which they would do anyway). At a future date they would get back to building the line. But for now they have what they had built.
There were also several ways of connecting their line to the LIRR Rockaway Beach line. But they chose a connection that was not what they first planned.
There were also several ways of connecting their line to the LIRR Rockaway Beach line. But they chose a connection that was not what they first planned.
I always wondered why the Rockaway Branch was connected where they did. They chose the circulous Fulton Subway instead of connecting it to 63rd Drive. I don't understand why they chose to abandon half of the Rockaway line, which would have given intermediate service to a whole stretch in Queens, that has no rail service.
Subway stations could have been constructed at:
-101 Avenue (use the old LIRR Ozone Park Station.)
-Atlantic Avenue (use the old concrete LIRR Woodhaven station)
-Jamaica Avenue (site of LIRR Brooklyn Manor station-transfer to Woodhaven on the J)
-Myrtle Avenue
-Union Turnpike
-Metropolitan Avenue (site of Parkside Station)
-Yellowstone Blvd
-Austin Street
Maybe that's all the ROW the TA bought from the LIRR - up to Liberty Ave.
Maybe that's all the ROW the TA bought from the LIRR - up to Liberty Ave
I always thought the TA owned the entire ROW. WHo owns it is the subway doesn't own it. Does the LIRR still own it. THey are all MTA anyway aren't they?
The TA owns the entire right of way. That is why the LIRR did not rip anything out. In fact, after the TA bought the line, they leased the part from Rego Park to Ozone Park back to the LIRR so they could operate until they gave it up in the early 60's.
-Mark
I thought they did. It still makes no sense to me why they just used the lower half. The abandoned end would have been such an asset to the system.
The northern end of the Rockaway line WAS originally supposed to be operated by NYCT as part of the Winfield Spur (disused section on the Queens Line, north of (geographically east) Roosevelt Avenue station (E,F,G,R,V level))and would have gone south to connect to the present A line ROW. This line would have been a more direct line from Midtown to the Rockaways as part of the second phase of the IND subway back in 1929. But the Great Depression put that on hold, and now the line is just a derelict line gone to waste due to the Depression, fiscal crises, NIMBYs and political hoopla.
Anyone willing to bust through the bulkhead at the end of the line past the Grant Ave. turnoff?:-)
How could there be a separate station at 181st Street? That doesn't make sense to me. I hope this T/O wasn't joking with you. And a two side platforms with two tracks? No, no that's not possible. The relay tracks of the upper level go past through that area, so there's no way that can be true. He probably meant as a four track station. Unless this station is on the lower level relay tracks, before it splits into four tracks.
The only way I could see that there is a possible station at 181st Street is that during the planning stages of extending the IND to Jamaica, the extension from 169th Street was to go out to Springfield Blvd. and the next station after 169th Street was to be 181st Street. But the eastern Queens extension never happened and plans were changed and 179th Street was chosen to be the extension after 169, and as the line's new terminal. Now that's the only logic I think of that would justify the existence of a incomplete station that close to 179th Street, because 179, was probably not the intended station to follow 169.
There's one way to solve the mystery of this station. F trains relay through that area, so any T/O or crew at 179 would know if there are platforms east of 179. It's a matter of asking them. Or somehow getting a ride on a relaying train and paying close attention to the tunnel walls to keep an eye out for the point where the walls are farther away from the train as usual, indicating that there is a platform of some kind there. But then there's is the tunnel lighting issue. The relay area doesn't look to well lighted along the tunnel walls, so it may be difficult to see anything.
Seriously mindspring, if you can find out for sure about this and get the maps this T/O said he would get for you, e-mail me a copy. I would certainly like to know. You've been receivng my transit plans. So you have my email. I could probably make adjustments on my F and R Hillside Avenue Extension to accommodate this, especially when I'll do the track maps for the expanded system. There I would be able to at least acknowledge that there was to be station 181st Street, by inserting the platforms. Francis Lewis Blvd. is not a problem as I already have that station along the Extension. Speaking of Francis Lewis, is that station connected to the rest of the Hillside Avenue line? If so, it would mean the trackways would continue past the bumper blocks at 184th Place on the upper level. And how did it get flooded anyway?
I just read a little article that freight service should return to Staten Island by 2004. The lift bridge has already been rehabilitated and the only loose ends are approach and connecting track work plus a 14.5 million $ overhaul of the Arlington Yard. The impetus behind the revival is the Howard Hook Marine terminal that clogs the Gothals Bridge w/ trucks. The rail link should remove 56,000 trucks a year from the bridge.
People might not be aware that SIRR is not MTA SIRy (SIRTOA) and that this doesn't mean that we can expect to see freight at St. George or beyond any time soon.
It would be great if they could run passenger service to and from NJ.
It would be great if they could run passenger service to and from NJ.
They do. From all sorts of places. Just not from SI.
Seriously, that would be a major undertaking. MTA just doesn't want to. They won't even run b---s (those contraptions that roll on rubber thingies) from SI to NJ. Perhaps, if therewere some other "they," such as NJT, who wanted to . . .
Do you have any particular place in NJ you want them to serve from SI?
I doubt MTA can legally institute any interstate operations except by a new compact between the states. The current MTA joint operations in NJ pre-existed the MTA.
If the buses are run by NYCT they're not even permitted to leave the CITY, under the law that created the Transit Authority. How many decades was it before they finally figure out a way to get the Q5 and Q86 into Green Acres so people who wanted to shop wouldn't have to walk from the City Line or take one of the Nassau County buses out of Jamaica?
What about the TA's SI express buses that go through NJ? Is that because they don't actually receive or discharge passangers there?
>>>Is that because they don't actually receive or discharge passangers there? <<<
That is the EXACT reason. Although, IIRC, they had to get special dispensation even for that.
Peace,
ANDEE
They had to get dispensation due to their size - the original buses used were wider than what is normally allowed on NJTP.
IIRC, NYC buses, like the GMC TDH4510s (4000 series) that were the mainstay of Brooklyn service in the 50's, were 8 feet 6 inches wide and Interstate Highway System regulations prohibited buses wider than 8 feet, so most cities eventually adopted 8 feet as the maximum bus width.
I suppose the 6000 series Macks in Staten Island were also 8'6". Those buses were wonderful to ride, especially on Staten Island. Those same Macks provided the base service out of Ulmer Park Depot.
I doubt MTA can legally institute any interstate operations except by a new compact between the states. The current MTA joint operations in NJ pre-existed the MTA.
All very true, but very much besides the point. The same legislature that "owns" the MTA makes the laws. Saying that it is illegal, when the State is the owner, is just another way of saying that the owners of the railroad don't want to do it.
I doubt MTA can legally institute any interstate operations except by a new compact between the states. The current MTA joint operations in NJ pre-existed the MTA.
All very true, but very much besides the point. The same legislature that "owns" the MTA makes the laws. Saying that it is illegal, when the State is the owner, is just another way of saying that the owners of the railroad don't want to do it.
My point is that the MTA is owned by New York but cannot operate in New Jersey without mutual agreement between both states. It is not up to New York alone, so the point about the legislature is moot.
Also, the MTA probably doesn't want to do it.
Also, the MTA probably doesn't want to do it.
Now, I think we're getting to the heart of the problem. New York bureaucrats think that New York is the Middle Kingdom. Consequently, they think, the barbarians from NJ need to come here much more than we need to go there. That being the case, they believe that it is the responsibility of the barbarians to provide all transportation across the frontier.
As one who has lived in both NY and NJ (born and raised in NJ), I think that is mostly the way it really is!!!!!
>> How many decades was it before they finally figure out a way to get the Q5 and Q86 into Green Acres so people who wanted to shop wouldn't have to walk from the City Line or take one of the Nassau County buses out of Jamaica? <<
That may have been as much a problem with the shopping mall as anything else. Nassau County buses used to stop at Broadway Mall until the mall asked them to leave. Green Acres may not have had much enthusiasm for busloads of city riders being dumped there.
City of Buffalo had a very serious discrimination case brought against a mall (upheld by NYS Court of Appeals) by people from the city who used to take a bus out to a mall on the outskirts (outside city limits). Mall forced the busses out of the mall where there had been a bus stop and several shoppers were killed by traffic crossing the road from the bus stop into and out of the mall ... mall lost the case and so did the city of Buffalo. Busses now come to the mall again as a result.
If Broadway mall has anything worthwhile, some civil attorneys might be able to get their attention ...
Andrew, in the specific case of Green Acres, I doubt the mall didn't want the service--the southeast Queens community has been an important part of Green Acres business for decades, Green Acres being the only real shopping center of any size of quality in that neck of the woods.
Queens people could get there on the Nassau County buses originating in Jamaica--it was the City buses that couldn't go through because ofthe NYCTA law.
Coach USA runs buses between SI and Exchange Place / Newport...
But the equipment and the schedules suck.
NJT does lots of cross-state stuff, GWB, PABT, and Philly to name a few. They could if they wanted to.
Actually, NJT might be able to bring up weekend ridership on the HBLR by providing a bus from SI to 22st (let's face it, if they were to consider this it'll probably be well after that stop gets built). Easy access to Liberty State Park and Newport Mall.
I could see NJT running Raritan Valley trains down the SIRR Row, accross the Kill and into St. George Terminal. The best part is that the whole junction b/t the former CNJ Raritan Valley Line and the SIRR line occurs at CP-Aldene where the CNJ crosses the former Conrail Lehigh Line. This is important because most of the freight traffic out of Staten Island will be containers. The Lehigh Line is the promary outlet for containers out of the New York area to the south and east. The freighs lines would probably foot some of the bill to re-habilitate the RoW out to CP-Aldene. Once it was in place NJT could run passenger trains to St. George.
Except the line is being abandoned west of the to-be-built connection to the Chemical Coast.
-Hank
Right. The whole reason for the new helix between the SIRR and the Chemical Coast is to shut up the NIMBYs between Aldene and the new connection.
When it's done, what company does the SIRR row belong to? Canadian Pacific? That's what I heard from Canadian Pacific, as they were looking for some way to get into the New York market.
If the NJT DOES run service to St. George, would St. George be able to handle NJT trains? And wouldn't they also need MTA permission to run trains into St. George, as I believe the terminal is MTA property, right?
-John!
Well Woodbridge, Perthy Amboy,etc.
Considering how close Staten Island is to that part of NJ, it is a shame that no transit (bus or otherwise) is available between.
Considering how close Staten Island is to that part of NJ, it is a shame that no transit (bus or otherwise) is available between.
Agreed.
Considering how close Staten Island is to that part of NJ, it is a shame that no transit (bus or otherwise) is available between.
Agreed.
It would almost be worth someone's while setting up a Richmond - Jersey Transit Corporation.
I used mass transit between Staten Island and Perth Amboy, but it couldn't take me far inland, since it floated.
I have never ridden on NJT commuter trains before, but I do know they are vastly different from LIRR rolling stock. Do these trains have a railfan window like the LIRR M-1/3's? They do use overhead lines instead of 3rd rail like LIRR, so the the power supply is quite different. What about signalling?
It should be an interesting ride, on a non-MTA operated rail line.
I definately will be taking pictures.
NJT commuter trains are powered by overhead wires, and the ones I have ridden do not have railfan windows, sad to say. There are MUs as well as push-pull trains with toaster locomotives. I have to say, the push-pull train I rode was a lot nicer and newer than the MUs I've usually ridden on the Northeast Corridor line.
Mark
NJT Trains have the possibility of a railfan view. The storm door has a window and the door into the vestabule also has a window, but it is usually covered by black point or a metal plate. Sometimes this paint or metal plate is scratched off/lowered.
And on Comet IVs, since the window is lightly tinted anyway and the T/O has an extra door for his cab, the window is often kept clear.
There was a small portion at the top of the window of the last car of the mu train that I rode last Saturday from Hamilton to Trenton that allowed me to get a look at the circus train parked in Hamilton Twp.
I was on that exact same MU last June. They must not change the trainsets much.
NJT commuter trains are also powered by diesel engines. Those trains originate in either Hoboken or Newark. Also, all trains from New York en route to Dover, Summit, or Gladstone consist of ALP-44 engines and push-pull coaches. The MU's cannot handle the difference in voltage when the trains switch from the Northeast Corridor to the M&E.
The MU's cannot handle the difference in voltage when the trains switch from the Northeast Corridor to the M&E.
Is this because there are more pantographs, preventing a simultaneous voltage switch? Or are the MUs not set up for an easy voltage change?
If the latter, how do they transfer the single unit MUs from Hoboken Div. for service on the Princeton JCT shuttle?
If the latter, how do they transfer the single unit MUs from Hoboken Div. for service on the Princeton JCT shuttle?
They are sent to the Meadowlands Shop to be rewired for 12,000 volts. NJT MU's don't have something called a "transformer". A transformer is a "voltage changer" installed on all ALP-44 locomotives to handle voltage changes. A step-up AND a step-down transformer is installed so that Morristown line trains can switch from 12KV to 25KV or vice versa without any harm.
You don't have to use quotes to define something as basic as a transformer.
I will be taking a direct train both ways, so it will be powered by an electric locomotive.
Interesting, I can't wait!
Try the Midtown Direct service from Penn Station. They also go to Summit, saving you a separate trip to Hoboken. The ALP-44's with push pull coaches operate out of Penn because of the voltage change. MU's are seem to operate out of Hoboken. Skip LI Bus and take an Oyster Bay train to Mineola or Jamaica and out to Penn Sta. That should save you some time.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's how I go to Millburn.
MU's are seem to operate out of Hoboken.
The only line out of Hoboken powered by electric MU's are the Gladstone Branch and the newly constructed Montclair "Connection" (scheduled to open Sept. 30)
MU's are seem to operate out of Hoboken.
The only line out of Hoboken powered by electric trains are the Gladstone Branch and the newly constructed Montclair "Connection" (scheduled to open Sept. 30)
MU's only serve the Gladstone Branch.
The signaling to Summit was re-done in and around 1983 and consists of US&S modular traffic light style signals with small targets. More recent installations are of US&S type round target signals. The overhead wire was installed in the 30's by the DL&W and then replaced in 1983 when the line converted to 25kv AC. All the poles and hangers are original, the wire uses modern lightweight insulators and a quasi-constant tension system. Linespeeds do not exceed 79mph. There is a small yard st Summit as well as a tower built into the side of the station retaining wall. If you could take some pics of the tower at Summit and/or the switch machine and signals it would be greatly appriciated.
Sure I should get a chance, as long as the tower is near the station I'll do it. It might rain tomorrow, but I'm still going.
>>>I definately will be taking pictures.<<<
Please... it's DEFINITELY....check a dictionary.
Peace,
ANDEE
P.S.:Sorry to be the spelling police but, this annoys the shit out of me. You are not the only one who does it either.
I howp I downt doo it - iff I doo, pleez let mee no!
lol
> this annoys the [CENSORED] out of me.
You know what annoys it out of me? Profane language!
- Lyle Goldman
>>You know what annoys it out of me? Profane language!
- Lyle Goldman <<
What annoys me is the not using of capital letters in sentences on this board.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry to be the spelling police but, this annoys the shit out of me. You are not the only one who does it either.
You know what annoys it out of me? Profane language!
What annoys me is the not using of capital letters in sentences on this board.
And a number of people have expressed annoyance at John for his incessant complaining.
Lighten up. :)
I did use capital letters.
- Lyle Goldman
We're sorry, we'll stop if you don't go tattle-taling on us to teacher or your mommy and daddy.
Hey, why is it that you respond to almost every posting that I make, usually with some snide comment? Do you actually do a search for messages that I post?
- Lyle Goldman
Hey, why is it that you respond to almost every posting that I make, usually with some snide comment?
I respond to the posts of a lot of people, maybe it just so happens that you and I gravitate to the same threads (I use reverse threaded view). As for snide responses, I'll respond to an informational question you may have truthfully and honestly, but your profane language post deserved nothing more than a snide response. What kind of problem do you have with words? Nobody's using them to put you down, so there shouldn't be a problem.
A lot of us have a problem with profane language, Pig... something about "respect" that seems to be sorely lacking in society today. It doesn't have to be directed at us to offend us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do these trains have a railfan window like the LIRR M-1/3's?
Not on the push-pulls, neither on the MU's (unless if you're lucky and the engineer leaves the metal panel down). The metal panel says "NO ADMITTANCE". On Comet IV's the window is "blackened" by tar material that can be scratched off. On the other end you have the locomotive.
Even if you have a good railfan window, there are conductors moving sporadically through the engineer's cab, so caution about that. The rear brakeman will get you in the back of the train.
On diesel-powered trains, unless if its rush hour, the conductor closes off the end cars accordingly.
If you want to see more NJT rolling stock (including the close=up of a ALP-46, visit The Unofficial NJ TRANSIT Webpage .
They do use overhead lines instead of 3rd rail like LIRR, so the the power supply is quite different.
Power on the NEC (Newark Division) is wired at 12,000 volts, 25 Hz. Power on the Morristown line and the Gladstone Branch (Hoboken Division) is wired at 25,000 volts, 60 Hz. Because the voltage is higher, the current is able to flow in a smaller sized wire.
Orange triangular stickers at the ends and beneath the center doors will tell you the voltage the train's wired for.
Arrow III's have to go to the shop to be compatible between voltages.
Enjoy your trip and make sure to ride all of NJT's other lines also! (The diesel lines especially and the NJCL will leave you with many unforgettable experiences and memories!)
--Just a little note, center doors do not open even though Summit is a high-platform station.
Actually, at least on the Main/Bergen lines, the cab car is usually kept open at all times since it's the only one with a bathroom. Although I've seen on some inbound Port Jervis trains they tend to keep it closed until Suffern.
So you disembark from the vestibule, like on the "old diesel" cars the LIRR once used.
Well most of my pics will be at and around the Summit train station.
I'll have to ride some other NJT lines someday.
Thanks for the tips, I'll check out the website you mentioned.
If you ride the Boonton Line, the Rowe St station is like a 2 minute walk from my habitat. But don't come around looking for free drinks or asking to use my bathroom, cause I don't open my door for nobody!
(except maybe Toni...)
Also, on the Hoboken Division lines, it is a tossup of what type of cars will be on your train. The NJT-owned Metro-North Comets are *supposed to* only run on the Main/Bergen and Pascack Valley Lines, but I routinely see them on the Boonton Line. But I've never seen the Shoreliners on any other lines except the Main/Bergen and usually only on the Port Jervis trains at that.
Also, the NJT Arrow I's/Comet IA, and the Metro-North Comet IB may look identical on the outside, but they are completely different inside!
The MN cars have a little booth where the center door would be on an Arrow, but the NJT ones don't, for one, and the seats are completely different (flip-syle on MN, fixed on NJT).
NJT also seems to be having a retro fetish. Notice how the oldest cars had flip seats and center doors (on the Arrows at least), the mid-age cars have fixed seats and no center doors, but the newest cars (Comet III, IV, V), go back to flip seats and center doors!
I bet if the Arrow I's were being rebuilt today, they would keep the center doors!
Have fun, and enjoy NJ Transit's variety of styles!
Well, I am not the biggest fan or supporter of Robert Moses and what he did. He destroyed plans for a Second Avenue Subway Line and the IND second system when they had the funding, and drained it towards his massive highway projects, especially the most difficult public works project in a city before the big dig super project...the Cross Bronx Expressway, which gutted East Tremont, that’s another story for those who are interested of the bloody history of the Cross Bronx. Title 1 projects evicting people, for commercial developments.
Then again people would say he was a great man, for he prepared NYC to handle the automobiles of the future, that the highways he built were necessary, and that with out the highways being built that NYC wouldn’t be able to thrive the way it has today. That also the clearing of the slums improved life greatly, by improving life conditions and how the projects improved the life of thousands if not hundreds of thousands...also he built countless parks around the city.
So should he be remembered for putting his hand in creating the NYC we know today? Or for ruining transit, and destroying any chance for NYC to expand cause of the limits of the NYC subway system?
Perhaps things are best left unmentioned and left Robert Moses {yuck ptooey) remain as a part of history.
IMO, the sooner FORGOTTEN the better. Petty miserable little shell of a man who destroyed many neighborhoods in The Bronx when he didn't have to.
Peace,
ANDEE
How best remembered///for rail people? In effigy at the end of a rope.
Gotta hand it to the guy. He got things done. In these days it's half impossible to widen an existing highway or do anything substantial in public works--road or transit--it's amazing to think that Robert Moses managed to build a whole metropolitan area's worth of roads, crossings, and parks.
It is easy to blame him for the last sixty-odd years of inaction with transit expansions, and the general favoring the car has over the train. But the fact is that since the 1940's, road transport has been the focus of America, with or without him. Moses rode the wave of the love affair with the car. He didn't create it.
In fact, can you imagine what it would be like trying to drive around the NY area had his massive public works projects not happenned? The Cross-Bronx, BQE, LIE, Belt, Van Wyck, etc--can you imagine NY without them? They might be hopelessly inadequate in light of today's Interstate standards, but what if that traffic were on loacl streets instead?
NYC needs public transit. We need more of it. Much more. But we need our highways too.
:-) Andrew
Moses should be remembered as practically the last person in New York who was able to get major projects accomplished. We can argue from now until Doomsday whether his ideas were good or bad, but there's no doubt that he was a can-do person extraordinaire.
Even though I haven't seen anything that altered my core understandings of Moses' huge negative accomplishments, I can appreciate the good things he also did. Among them are the fact that he created most of the Long Island parks, which are so heavily used by the same NYC residents that have suffered from his anti-transit attitudes.
And, of course, the Long Island beaches. Not just that he had Jones Beach built, but that he preserved that and much of the entire barrier beach system from private development. Just look at Ocean City, MD, or Virginia Beach, VA, to see what the Long Island beaches would probably have looked like, if not for his early intervention.
In fact, I've been told by more than one person who have been to the Riviera that the Long Island beaches are nicer. They're oriented to the sun in the same way as the French beacges, but without the huge hotels looming overhead.
I would recommend Robert Caro's The Empire Builder to anyone who wants a broad view of Moses. Although the book has been commonly damned as being one-sidedly against Moses (mostly, I suppose, by people who didn't read the huge tome) it is really quite balanced. It's all in there.
(I would recommend Robert Caro's The Empire Builder to anyone who wants a broad view of Moses. Although the book has been commonly damned as being one-sidedly against Moses (mostly, I suppose, by people who didn't read the huge tome) it is really quite balanced. It's all in there.)
I read the tome. I don't doubt Caro's view that Moses was an SOB who went wrong by failing to listen to anyone and change his views as the times warrented. I do doubt his view that Moses was responsible for the American car culture, or the decline of New York City. Caro's into the great man theory of history. I believe that Moses rode the social wave, he didn't create it.
Caro's entire thesis -- that Moses' highway wrecked the city -- hinges on the chapter on East Tremont. There, he claims, white flight didn't occur -- it stalled -- until Moses ran the highway through. Then it did, thus proving that Moses and the highways created the white flight to the suburbs, etc. that lead the city down. He makes the same case, to a lesser extent, in Sunset Park.
He thus ignores all the neighborhoods without highways that the white middle class fled after WWII (ie. most of Brooklyn, which only got a couple of highways) and all the neighborhoods that didn't become desperately poor after the road went through (ie. the FDR and the Upper East Side).
Caro does admit in the book that producing public works that benefit the region in the long run but hurt the locals in the short run is difficult. He wrote this in 1972. He has never reconsidered the balance, after 30 years when nothing was built.
As for Moses, he has enough named after him already.
One small point: the FDR Drive doesn't run through the Upper East Side; it runs along its edge. Big difference. (It's also a parkway, not an expressway. Less of a difference but still worth noting.)
I read the tome. I don't doubt Caro's view that Moses was an SOB who went wrong by failing to listen to anyone and change his views as the times warrented. I do doubt his view that Moses was responsible for the American car culture, or the decline of New York City. Caro's into the great man theory of history. I believe that Moses rode the social wave, he didn't create it.
I both agree and disagree with that point. I agree that Moses was not the sole mover in these things. In general, this is why I reject theories that say "if not for (some specific individual) the world would still be the same as it was 100 years ago, but more of it."
It is worth considering, for example, that the individual mobility afforded by automobiles was so attractive that auto registration in the U.S. continued to increase even during the Great Depression, and before Moses had his greatest impact on transportation planning.
I disagree with what I take to be your implication of "riding the social wave." Moses was one of those who not merely had, but skillfully acquired, the power to channel social waves in ways that matched his world view.
Caro's entire thesis -- that Moses' highway wrecked the city -- hinges on the chapter on East Tremont. There, he claims, white flight didn't occur -- it stalled -- until Moses ran the highway through. Then it did, thus proving that Moses and the highways created the white flight to the suburbs, etc. that lead the city down. He makes the same case, to a lesser extent, in Sunset Park.
Again I will both grant and dispute points. There were many social forces that in addition to Moses shaped both specific and general decline in the City. However, this does not mean that his policies and building didn't have impact.
In terms of the subject that most interests the people on this forum, I would argue that various entities, including such as Moses, Henry Ford*, federal interest in highway building, and National City Lines and its component backers, contributed to a precipitous decline in the electric railway industry which precluded what might have been a more balanced transportation system.
IOW, we would certainly have many more autos and highways now than in 1930 even if Moses (and those other movers) had never existed, or had been so powerful, but we would also probably have more surviving viable rail transit systems in a broader range of locations than today. And there is at least the possibility that more systems would still be in the hands of private operators instead of political bureaucracies.
*I mention Henry Ford not because of his mass production techniques (i.e., Model T) but because of his (take your choice of stubborn and/or visionary) refusal to back the Lincoln Highway because he perceived that the taxpayers could be made to fund highways directly.
And there is at least the possibility [had there been no Moses or his ilk] that more systems would still be in the hands of private operators instead of political bureaucracies.
Now that's an intriguing thesis. You may be right, but how do you square it with the fact that the IRT and BMT ceased to be financially viable before Moses was near his peak of power?
And there is at least the possibility [had there been no Moses or his ilk] that more systems would still be in the hands of private operators instead of political bureaucracies.
Now that's an intriguing thesis. You may be right, but how do you square it with the fact that the IRT and BMT ceased to be financially viable before Moses was near his peak of power?
Actually, that makes my point. Because a specific individual or agency wasn't involved in a particular case doesn't prove that that person or agency was guiltless in other cases. It just demonstrates that (in this example Moses) wasn't the sole cause.
The IRT and the BMT suffered at the hands of government forces, some peculiar to New York, and others of like mein to Moses. The IRT additionally suffered from some classically bad business decisions that helped put it under, but there is no reason to assume, absent the government intervention in the marketplace, that the IRT would not have been succeeded by another private operator.
And don't forget that you are incorrect in saying that the "BMT ceased to be financially viable." The BMT was a solvent company and even showing a tiny profit, City and all, to the bitter end.
Despite thinking I was being funny in anearlier post on this subject the horrible truth is Robert Moses only gave people what they wanted and for those who could afford it[I swear no offense meant...but read white] that meant homes in the suburbs and cars, not spending life in 3 rooms or if lucky 4 or 5 room apartments. I aspired to owning a home from childhood, first Brooklyn were taxes were low and the el was near meaning I could live without a car [sometime did];now in Montana. It disgusts me that people will drive even a few blocks in town rather than walk and that cars are "God" here as in Jersey or California; but until people can't breathe as was imminent in some areas they'll say cars first. I hate it but that's life. I'm sure someone else has said similar but I can't a;; read all posts.
Caro's entire thesis -- that Moses' highway wrecked the city -- hinges on the chapter on East Tremont. There, he claims, white flight didn't occur -- it stalled -- until Moses ran the highway through. Then it did, thus proving that Moses and the highways created the white flight to the suburbs, etc. that lead the city down. He makes the same case, to a lesser extent, in Sunset Park.
I had thought that Tremont was almost certainly destined to be "white flighted" even without the Cross-Bronx due to demographic changes. Most of the whites who lived in the neighborhood right before the CBX came through were elderly people who weren't going to be around much longer, while almost all of the people who had been moving into the 'hood in the pre-CBX years were minority. Building the CBX merely gave a modest boost to an almost inevitable population shift.
I don't know as much about Sunset Park beyond what I read (many moons ago) in Caro.
There's no book by Caro that I'm aware of called "The Empire Builder" about Moses. Isn't that book called "The Power Broker?"
No, the book is "The Empire Builder." The train to the Pacific Northwest is "The Power Broker." :)
Huh?
It's a joke, son. Yes, I meant "The Power Broker."
A good memorial idea for Robert Moses....
Put a picture of his face on the bottoms of every subway seat in the system, and make his face look like its puckering up.
Humm. We form a foundation that supplies plumbing fixtures for public restrooms. The toilets and urinals have little pictures of various public figures from the past, Boss Tweed and Robert Moses among them. Donald Manes and Bess Myerson would be among the modern honorees.
More seriously, I have thought that someone should built a monument someplace in the city, putting in bronze the famous Nast cartoon of Boss Tweed as a vulture, captioned 'Let us Prey". You then have names placed on this monument, names which need to be forever associated with that of William Marcy Tweed.
Then, the endowment pays for a dinner every few years for the city's newspapermen, who nominate new 'Tweed Prize' honorees.
Who were Donald Manes and Bess Myerson?
Donald Manes was the Queens Borough President in the 1980's. He commited suicide in the midst of a scandal which (IIRC) involved the theft of parking violation money.
---Andrew
What happens when the Borough President dies/resigns in office? Who succeeds him/her?
I think Claire Shulman came in after Manes. An appointment, but by who I don't know.
The job of borough president is pretty much just ceremonial, it has no real power.
At the time, the Borough President sat on the Board of Estimate, the principal administrative body of the city.
Someone else explained Queens Borough President Donald Manes, and his suicide (he stabbed himself in the heart!) after having had his fingers caught in flagrante delicto in the cookie jar.
There's a rather crude, only-in-NY joke about this one. What did Henry VIII, Rock Hudson and Donald Manes have in common? They all [bleep]ed Queens.
Bess Myerson is a former Miss American (late 40s?), and after that a professional celebrity doing TV commercials and game shows. She was one of the Mayor's commissioners (culture? tourism?). Her boyfriend (the name Tommy Capano comes to mind) was in all sorts of trouble and she exercised her influence over the city system: she got caught. I forget if she was indicted/tried, but she did eventually get off, tho her boyfriend did time as I recall. The press called it 'the Bess Mess'.
Hey Dave,
I finally uploaded the pics from Hong Kong. They're sorta okay, but I don't know if you're gonna like 'em or not. I have them all bound up in .ctf (album) format, so please tell me if you want them in that form, or if you would like me to go the old attachment-only route, that is also fine with me.
Oh yeah, and I'm working on the line description for the "East" Rail commuter line. I'll squeeze that in with the pictures.
-John Leung
P.S. I don't know if Hotmail is going to let me send the file thru attachments, seeing that it's over 500 KB. If you wish, I can send the file to you via courier on a CD-R or something. Please tell me your preference.
According to a member of railroad.net:
Fire
1402 suffered a fire in the main transformer-high voltage bus. The cause hasn't been determined, yet, but initially it appears that debris was drawn up underneath and caused the main bus to arc.
The engineer fought the fire with extinguishers (4 of them), and it was finally controlled by the NY Fire Dept. This took place on track 4 NYP.
Does anyone have any other information involving this?
What is the "main bus to arc"?
A "bus", in this context, is a conducting bar that carries heavy current to supply several electrical circuits. Apparently it shorted out on debris and caused an arc of electricity.
(To Jeff H.: is that 100% accurate?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah. Apparently from what I've heard, debris got caught up under the train where the HV lead comes down from the roof and goes into the transformer (and line breaker?). This would be the HV bus. These types of connections are not normally insulated much, since it's really expensie and hard to insulate everything to those high voltages (and add a safety barrier - 40,000 volt insulation isn't easy to come by).
Bus can be a conductor bar (bus bar), or just a thick line.
Something got up in there and created enough or a path that the electricity arced out and either started a sustained arc, or lit the junk on fire. Bad either way...
i was at the transit museum gallery at gct today and i noticed they had the huge platform subway maps for sale but there was no price. i was going to ask someone who worked there how much they were but they seemed like they didn't wanna be bothered. does anyone know how much they are? also did they have number plates from redbirds for sale not long ago? if they did i didn't see any today.
thanks,
tim
If I remember correctly, the large maps are $10.00 each.
damn i shoulda picked one up. one more question, do you know what month/year the maps are? i didn't feel like taking them out of the plastic and unrolling them and then re-rolling them, etc.
That I could not tell you.
I would venture a guess and say that they are from last year or possibly 2000. Of course it could be a January 2002 edition. They only way to tell is to open it and unroll a part of it. The date will bet in the big box at the top right or as foot note at the bottom left.
Why not give them a call 212-878-0106 and ask them.
>>i was going to ask someone who worked there how much they were but they seemed like they didn't wanna be bothered.<<
I would have asked him/her anyway. That's their job.
Bill "Newkirk"
actually i was a volunteer tour guide for the Transit museum. Admission is 3 dollars when it was open. its currently closed for renovations, but they intend to call me back when it reopens, so i will let you know
Tim was asking about the cost of the large map. Not the admission price to the Museum.
Sometimes they GIVE those kind of things away if you buy $30 worth of other stuff ... I got a MetroCard poster (5 Years 94-99) that way.
Pick out a book you want & give them a call.
Mr rt__:^)
I picked up one of those wall maps a few years ago at the museum itself. They shipped it to me in Colorado for a few bucks extra.
Most there will go out of their way to help you.
They offered to ship it when I told them where I was from. That map is still in its cardboard tube. I need to find some wall space for it.:-)
Tim, I have some friends at the Transit Museum. Here is their official response:
Hi Andee--
Thanks so much for letting me know about the subway wall map questions. Our
poster display area at GCT is not the greatest because we have such a small
space, so we created a book which has images of all the posters and maps
available with prices and sizes. I'm sorry we were not able to share that
information with South Brooklyn Tim. I hope he'll come back and visit us
again. I've forwarded his comments to our store supervisors and staff.
Here's an FYI: the subway wall maps are $15.00 each (3'x5'), copyright
MTA/December 2001. These are the most current maps available. They can be
mail-ordered by calling the store at Grand Central (212 878 0106).
He also asked about number plates from Redbirds: We sell them for the a mere
$8.00 a piece. The price recently went up, as they are becoming more rare.
We have them in stock, but some days they sell out on the floor and stock
from the warehouse has not been replenished. Customers only need to ask and
we can make a special trip to get them. We anticipate getting a few Redbird
de-accessioned items over the course of the next few months, including grab
handles, roll signs, etc.
Best,
Amy
Amy Hausmann
Manager, Retail Operations
New York Transit Museum
130 Livingston Street, 9th Floor
Brooklyn, NY 11201
you didn't have to do that, thanks again. looks like i'll be making a trip over there today after work. i really wanna get a roll sign, i wonder how much they will go for.
thanks again,
tim
No trouble at all. I am in retailing myself and employees who could care less are not to be tolerated.
If you send me your E-mail address I'll let you know when they get the rollsigns..
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow ... wonder if they can "accession" a pair of stands and a brake handle for my own BVE sim. Heh. Haven't heard back on any interest for what I had suggested past the last email I shared with you privately, but if they're not going to go with the idea, I'm willing to try any cheap trick to get my mitts on a pair of stands before they go swimming. After all, R32's felt like Redbird duty in the cab. Not at ALL like an R9 ... but schoolcar taught me how to handle redbird/R32 type controls also. Next best thing since I didn't have the sense God gave Heypaul to grab some when those could be had. ;)
Calm down, boy...you will not be 4gotten...see my e
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd also love to get my hands on a rollsign. And a strap. And a bench, but that's probably asking too much.
No trouble at all. I am in retailing myself and employees who could care less are not to be tolerated.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd love to get a rollsign. I have one from the R46's.
wo, Andee ... thank you for sharing this.
With all the Redbirds being retired and the availability of items from them being around for a short time, wonder if the NYTM would consider another auction and tag sale, though w/o the museum open, I don't know where it would be held ...
--Mark
wow, Andee ... thank you for sharing this.
With all the Redbirds being retired and the availability of items from them being around for a short time, wonder if the NYTM would consider another auction and tag sale, though w/o the museum open, I don't know where it would be held ...
--Mark
No problem, Mark. I hope to be able to inform everyone a little ahead of time IINWIM. I hope that they just don't pester the folks at the museum!!! They have their jobs to do and that is the reason I have left out all E-Mail address'
Peace,
ANDEE
After installing new ties along the W/B track from Lindenwold to Woodcrest, PATCO workers noticed that the concrete ties were cracking. It turned that the whole batch of 58,000 new ties was defective and will have to be sent back to the manufacturer. Not only that, the ties that have been laid b/t Lindenwold and Woodcrest will all have to be pulled out and replaced w/ new ties, negating 4 weeks of work that have gone into the tie replacement programme. As on now, the non-installed defective have been sent back to the manufacturer.
Ah well, serves em right for using concrete ties.
Why don't you like concrete ties? The strength of concrete ties is about the same as wood ties. But concrete ties last around 50 years while wood ties last about 20-30 years. I think concrete ties on ballast is the best trackbed combo.
Personally, I'm not a fan of concrete ties as they seem (and this is an observation only, I don't have any scientific evidence to back this up) to give a rougher, choppier ride than wooden ties.
-Robert King
What planet are you living on? Ever ride a SEPTA R8/7/2? At various points they transfer from the wooden tied local track to the concrete tied express track its like going from a washboard road to a smooth iceskating rink.
No. But subway trains on the TTC ride much more harshly on the few stretches where there are concrete ties instead of wooeden ties. I am also not the only person here to notice this either.
-Robert King
When was the last time the wood-tied local track was tamped
and surfaced? Chances are the concrete ties are recent and
with that came a lot of ballast work. Concrete ties provide
a stiffer track modulus. They are wonderful when the ballast
condition is firm and well-maintained. Much less forgiving than
wood of less-than-perfect roadbed conditions. Concrete ties
provide nearly perfect gauge restraint but when they fail, the
failure is total. Wood ties degrade gradually. Plus, concrete
ties are just plain ugly!
P.S. To Robert King: Are you sure those are concrete ties in
ballast or is it direct fixation?
Does anyone have any references? I'm teaching a very basic materials science course this fall and this would be a nifty topic to explore.
Mark
I found this on the web: www.rta.org/pdf/sec1a.PDF. It seems somewhat interesting.
What is the course you are going to teach? I'm going to take a Strength of Materials course and a Prestressed Concrete course next spring. But these are Civil Engineering courses and not Material Science.
My course isn't nearly so advanced. I'n an adjunct professor at Temple University and I'm teaching a chemistry course for non-majors. This fall I'm going to try doing it as a materials science using a course developed by a friend of mine. I try to weave subways into my lessons whenever I can. I once started putting together a lesson on the chemistry of waterborne asbestos and the Redbird reefs, but I haven't finished it.
Mark
These concrete ties are in ballast on some of the outdoor sections of the Yonge University Spadina line. Direct fixation is only used in subway tunnels, on a couple of bridges and the 'elevated' section between Yorkdale and just south of Wilson as well as the Scarborough RT. All of the other outdoor track is traditional ballast and wood ties as are a few sections in tunnels where there are switches etc.
-Robert King
Direct fixation was very fashionable in the 1970s and early 80s.
It is very rough and loud. Tbe best track is what NYCT calls
"Type 1", i.e. wood ties in ballast. Unfortunately most of it
is being replaced.
>>Personally, I'm not a fan of concrete ties as they seem (and this is an observation only, I don't have any scientific evidence to back this up) to give a rougher, choppier ride than wooden ties.<<
About two years ago, I was riding on the rear vestibule with a couple of other LIRR passengers with the old 2900 series diesel (ex-MU) cars. There is a short stretch on the Port Jeff line east of New Hyde Park with concrete ties. When we rode from wood to concrete ties, I noticed the wheel noise was quiter and when went back to wood, it was slightly noisier.
The LIRR from Jamaica to Harold interlocking has concrete ties on all four tracks. The ride is much better than with the older wooden ties. It's like those old worn M-1's ride like Amfleet cars and that's saying a lot ! Perhaps a bad ride with concrete ties is the result of poor roadbed ballasting.
Bill "Newkirk"
MARTA had a similar problem. The company that made the ties didn't cast the concrete properly and the concrete was starting to crumble after only 20 years instead of the expected 50 years. Unforunately, the company went out of business so MARTA couldn't sue them for replacing the ties. It took about 1.5 years to replace all the bad ties.
Looks like someone screwed up their engineerring, or Q/C
Is the tie company going to eat the cost of replacement, too, in addition to replacing the junk ties?
A concrete tie cracking occasionally isn't bad, but when it's a systemic thing, you've got a BIG problem.
Bet either the concrete was bad or they goofed the prestress....
I just heard it from a PATCO Engineer. It seemed to be a systematic cracking problem. Due to the cash strapedness of PATCO I am assuming that they will make the tie maker cover the cost of replacement, which is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 ties.
This Saturday I will take my final rides on the Redbirds. I first rode them, at age seven,in 1972. Back then of course they were painted blue and white to commemorate the 1964/65 World's Fair. Though I've always hated their gray plastic seats I will miss them for they are the last cars on the system older than I am. So on the eve of my final trips I will drink a toast; long live the Redbirds! May they forever ride on in our memories.
E_DOG
Amen brother. =)
The gray plastic seats are the most comfortable ones in the system. Enjoy them while you can.
I took my farewell-to-the-Redbirds-on-the-2 trip this afternoon, riding from E180 to Flatbush and back up to 59th. (I was at the railfan window most of the time, naturally, so I didn't get much use out of the comfortable seats.)
There were at least two Redbird trains in service on the 2 today, and probably no more. Mine was led (Brooklyn end) by 9192; the other one, which we met at Clark, was led (also Brooklyn end) by 9165.
We were immediately behind another 2 all the way down. (Due to a GO in the Bronx, the R-142 train in front was held at E180 to connect with a 5 shuttle.) Nevertheless, both trains made all local stops all the way. Even I concede in this case that one of them could have gone express without inconveniencing anyone, but erring on the side of too much local service is better than erring on the side of too much express service, so I won't complain. At least our C/R announced at each stop that we were making all stops; the train in front of us was presumably declaring itself an express at each local stop.
For those planning farewell Redbird rides, allow me to opine that the 7's Redbirds are overrated. The mainline R-33's on the 5 (and 2, barely) are in much better condition. If possible, catch them on the 2 while they're still there, since Redbirds are already an endangered species on the West Side.
One question about the Bronx GO (which had SB trains running express from E180 to Jackson and split 5 service): SB through 2's were using the middle track at E180 and Dyre shuttles were using the SB local track. Wouldn't it have been less disruptive to put 5's on the middle track? They wouldn't have had to switch twice to get to the NB track and they wouldn't even interfere with SB 2's.
Yes and no. Yes because being on the middle track gives easy access for pax bound for Dyre. No because of all the switching involved. I believe the shuttle leaves after the NB 2 leaves the station. Remember the heated "All 2 and Nereid Ave <5> express while the Dyre 5 make local stops in the Bx" debate that was turned down a few years ago.
There's also the confusion issue. Shuttles usually turn around on the middle track; except for the 1's to Chambers, I don't think I've ever seen trains reverse direction on a side track while through service continued in the middle. A lot of people thought they were getting onto a SB 5 when it was actually a NB 5. Fortunately, there was a platform conductor shouting into a megaphone, and, for a change, people were listening.
The way things were done, the 5 conflicted with 2's in both directions (at the same time, so it was often impossible to keep the 5 waiting until it wouldn't delay anyone) leaving the station. If the 5 had used the middle track, it would have conflicted only with NB 2's. SB 2's would have been unaffected if they were sent down that revenue track in the yard (I forget what it's called, but we discussed this here a few months ago and it's apparently regularly used in the morning rush to accomplish precisely this).
As for the 2/5 debate, I wasn't living in the city at the time so I didn't pay close attention. Why didn't it go through? Doesn't the White Plains branch have more passengers than the Dyre branch? I assume most of them are going to Manhattan, at least in rush hours. So wouldn't it make sense to give the majority the direct express service? The track configuration makes it even more of a good idea. The only downside I can see (aside from the inevitable complaints from the Dyre crowd) is the 50% reduction in local service which might have caused overcrowding on the Dyre 5 locals.
As for the 2/5 debate, it was the politicians from the Dyre Ave line(Pelham Parkway area) that stop this service change. There was even some maps printed and in subway cars with these changes. It was to alleviate less switching and therefore delays around the E.180St area.
Ah, politics as usual. Never mind that the change may be a net benefit when considered systemwide and that the loss suffered by the minority is small (either sit for a few extra minutes or walk across the platform at E180). Anyone going from Dyre to the West Side wouldn't even have been affected; they would have simply transferred at E180 rather than 149-3 or 149-GC.
I was on 6326 this morning on the 2, and the a/c seemed to be confused: the #2 end was hot and muggy but the #1 end was comfortably cool. Guess where I stood.
Then I caught 6829 on the 5. It had the same out-of-date 2 strip maps that all 2's have but it made up-to-date 5 announcements at 59th. (For some reason, the strip map lights were on at all stops from Park Place to 72nd, at Jackson, and from Intervale to E. Tremont. That's it. But the announcements were keeping up just fine.) Do the very same trains have 11-month-old announcements for the 2 but current announcements for the 5?
Were you on an express 5? The strip map, based on your description, was working. The only problem was that it had #2 stops instead of #5 stops. It seems to me that you were on an express train in the Bronx, so it skipped those stations.
Actually, 6826-6830 is a 2 line-assigned R142...as to why it was on the 5 is beyond me...the other day, I saw 6356-6360 coupled with 6631-6635...in the Bronx...as to why THAT happened is really a mystery...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
You're suggesting that, if the 2 strip map had been replaced with a 5 strip map, all would have been fine? I don't think so. This was at about 10:30 in the morning on a northbound 5, and there's certainly no northbound express service in the Bronx then. Furthermore, due to a GO that had just started, all northbound 5's from Manhattan were terminating at 149-GC on the upper level.
But let me think this out. From Franklin to Park Place on the 2 there are 12 stops, inclusive. From Franklin to 59th on the 5 there are only 11 (I only rode from 42nd to 59th). If the two Flatbushes are aligned the same, this doesn't work.
Wait, I take it back. If Park Place lines up with 59th (and the two Flatbushes don't line up), then all works out if this train was erroneously programmed as a Bronx express to Dyre.
Maybe it was actually a 2 train that was rerouted to the East Side for whatever reason, so the T/O reprogrammed it on the fly as a random 5 train so it would make the right announcements.
But I'm still confused about how the same train that, when it's running as a 2, doesn't know that the W stops at 42nd all of a sudden knows that the W stops at 59th on the 5.
How the 5 can have correct announcements while the 2 and 6 do not is beyond me. My guess is that when the trains first came, all they had were the 2 and 6, and the 5 was added later, so those were updated.
How much trouble could it have been to replace the 2 (and 6, if the 6 is even programmed on the R-142's) data while adding the 5 data?
The 6 line is programmed into the R142s.(BOMBardier)
What I dislike about the strip maps is the way that the light for each station goes out when the train arrives at that station. In other words, the illuminated lights show the stations where the train is yet to go. This arrangment seems counter-intuitive to me; it would make more sense to illuminate each station once the train arrives there, the opposite of the current arrangement.
I disagree. The illuminated lights show (in theory) exactly which stops the train will be making. Will it be running express or local in the Bronx? Will it be going to Dyre or Nereid? Will it be skipping any other stops? OTOH, it makes no difference to the rider (unless said rider happens to be a railfan) if the train originated at Bowling Green, Flatbush, Utica, or New Lots, nor if it happened to skip any stops already.
>>>...and the a/c seemed to be confused: the #2 end was hot and muggy but the #1 end was comfortably cool.<<<
Was it raining in the middle of the car. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
No, silly. This was an R-142, not an R-40.
I thought I heard a clap of thunder, but it was actually somebody getting up from one of the flip-up seats.
R142s have two computer controlled HVAC units, one in each end and it is not unusual at this time for one of two to fail. Better to be in the middle so your hearing is not drowned-out by the noise. As for announcements, software is still vendor-controlled and the best offense is for the public to complain to TA so vendors can be put 'on notice.' What these trainsets should have had is a universal display/announcement system allowing any 'number world' R142 to run any compatible line...rollsigns do make life so much easier. CI Peter
Approved Oct 6, 1970
Here's a patent for a refit of the R40. Instead of using "panograph" gates, it uses a cable system that is held under tension with internal cables and pulleys. Looking at the diagram, it allows the R40 to retain its Lowry designed slant with three thin cables. The cable retracts into the car body when not in use. Looks better than the kid with braces look.
The firm that wanted to sell this idea to the NYCTA was The Budd Company.
wow. that wouldve been a great implementation. plus the front and back ends of the train would have it retracted and it'd be like the old times. simply wow. i hate all that junk on the front of the slants. mta missed one hell of an idea.
Are ther any R26,s still in service?
At last count, ten were still running.
Would anyone have the car numbers for the consist used on the Farewell to the R-17 (Redbird) Fantrip on November 8,1987. I only know that it was at least a six car train and that 6614 was on one end and 6688 was on the other. Thanks in advance?
Larry,RedbirdR33
SMS, the short line railroad that serves the Pureland Industrial Complex in Bridgeton and the Valero Refinery in Paulsboro, both in South Jersey, aquired an additional office building at its Pureland location. The office was previously part of the now closed Victoria Station restaurant in Cherry Hill, and was not wanted by the new owner of the paoperty, a car dealer.
New SMS Pureland office (photo by Bill Kamps)
Hi Bill Newkirk,
Just wanted to let you know I wish I could have been on that last "Q" interval with you. It must have been great.
Bob
>>Hi Bill Newkirk,
Just wanted to let you know I wish I could have been on that last "Q" interval with you. It must have been great.<<
It was great, and also bittersweet. I arrived at Bridge-Jay fare controls and observed some veteran employees trading old stories about the Myrtle Ave line with the station agent. Then about midnight, someone called out for the last train to leave.
I boarded the consist with what appeared to be 99% railfans. If there was a regular passenger, it may have been one or two. When we left Bridge-Jay, it sank in this was the last time I would be doing this. The crowd was orderly, yet festive, unusual for that time at night. The Myrtle Ave line was the last of the old Brooklyn "els" and a piece of history was ending that night.
Along the route, people were looking out of apartment windows as if they knew that this was the last run. The Myrtle Ave "el" figures in my parents lives too. I remember an old faded snapshot of my father sitting at a square table playing cards with his friends outdoors with the "el" ever present. In the distance, the Lexington Ave "el" was branching off the line. We can't find that photo, shame. When I was a younger railfan, my father would weave tales of his younger years, the "el" and the equipment that ran on it. My parents younger years was centered around that neighborhood and the "el" that ran through it.
Anyway, by the time we reached Metropolitan Ave, the lights were out, since the bulbs were stolen as souvenirs. It was a long ride home to Newkirk Ave after midnight. I'm not sure what time I arrived home, possibly around 1:30 AM or so. My father was waiting up to see if I returned okay. I did and went to sleep that night knowing I was a part of history in Brooklyn. Now I know how older railfans felt when they rode the last runs on the Third Ave and other old elevated line. Ah, sweet memories !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the great story. I'll be in touch again soon.
Sincerely,
Bob
Bill, I know how you felt, I felt the same way about the Last Lex. I guess that I realized that while I would still have train service right past my house, I would never see the gate cars going past my window during rush hour anymore.
I did get a nice souvenir, but not until about a week after the Last Lex.
Hi Bill,
I use to live on Adelphi St. between Park and Myrtle. My home station was Vanderbilt Ave. I rode the "Q" cars all my life especially when I attended high school at Eastern District in Williamsburg. In the afternoons I would ride out to Metropolitan Ave. and watch the drill crews the adds to make six car trains for the rush hour. It was great and I made a lot of friends, both Motormen and Conductors. I had already been bitten by the train bug because me father was an employee of the LIRR and I would go with him quite often to VD Yard in Brooklyn. Anyhow, the "Q" cars were my favorites. I would have given my eye teeth to be on the last revenue trip and also both the post abandonment excursions but I was incapacitated with a gunshot wound I received in Viet Nam about six months earlier. I started working for the TA in August of 1970 and became a C/R in March of 1973. I was rewarded with the assignment of being the last Conductor to operate of the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue "L" on April 28th, 1973. The consist was the museum Low-V cars including their kerosene deck lamps. I was a nervous wreck, afraid something would go wrong that I wouldn't be able to handle. But the Road Car Inspector assigned to the excursion was Johnny Hornack(I hope I spelled his name correctly)and he told me not to worry and that if there were any problems he'd take care of it. The trip operated without incident much to my relief. As we left the 3rd Ave. "L" for the last time, I too rode into the history books. And you are right; it was a bittersweet moment.
Sincerely,
Bob
>>I use to live on Adelphi St. between Park and Myrtle<<
Funny you should mention that. As an infant, my folks lived on Skillman St bewteen Park and Myrtle. Maybe in those formative years, I heard the sounds of the gate cars on the Myrtle Ave Line thus turning me into a fifty year old railfan !
Thanks for sharing your story abouth the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave "el".
Bill "Newkirk"
Bob: So you were the conductor on that fantrip. I was on that one also. I took my first train ride on the el and just had to be there for the farewell.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember riding the World's Fair cars and the R-12/14's on the 3rd Ave El, but was there overlap, i.e. were they running WF's and 12-14's at the same time?
I know when the line went downtown they used MUDC's, but what other cars did they use after the line was shortened to 149 St.- Gun Hill Rd.?
Immediately fter the line was shortened the great majority of the MUDC fleet was scrapped/burned [sad sight at the rear of the book "By The El"] All of the Q's remained [had been used in rush hour express service only previously due to weight restrictions] and some MUDC's of the 1909-11 group remained, only motor cars and only cars that were converted to Low-V. As the last of the old IRT cars were replaced on Pelham a grroup of 4700 and 5600 series Steinways went to 3rd ave, about Nov-Dec 56 I think and ran in 6 motor sets. Can't swear when they went to the next format....1960 perhaps. 5 car Steinway-World's Fair-Low V trailer mixes were run until Nov. 69. alwayshad a Low-V trailer in the middle, 2 motor cars flanking it, World's Fair cars as much as possible but Steinways sometimes mixed in. I would expect that not al the R12's arrived at the same time so for a time thre would be mixes. I didn't work there then, was chasing R1-9 on the B div. and lived in Broolyn. Unfortunately I didn't even know they had gotten rid of thelast old IRT cars until a few months to late. Shame on me, who loved the old IRT.
Tony; The first R-12's arrived on the 3 Avenue El on about August 30,1969 and the old cars made there last run during the am rush on November 3,1969. (N) 5641-5670-5353-5636-5676 (S). So the overlap lasted only a few months. AT first only the GE R-12's ran here (5753-5802). A few R-14s were assigned to the lines somewhat later.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Does anyone have a good sound file converter software? I need it so I can convert some Chinese pronunciations of Hong Kong rail station names along with the line description file I'm working on for that.
If anyone can point me in the right direction that would be very nice of you all.
-J!
Is it possible to come up with a definitive list of what lines the R-16's ran on over the course of their years of service? Or is it safe to say that they ran on EVERY BMT-IND line at one time or another?
If that's the case, then what lines did they NEVER run on?
The R-16s were originally assigned to the Eastern Division. 6300-6349 were sent over to the A around 1956, where they remained until 1959. In August of 1966, 32 cars were loaned to Jamaica Yard and ran on the GG until February of 1967, when they returned to the BMT. After Chrystie St., they spent time on the EE and GG lines. By the late 70s, the R-16s had spent time on just about every IND/BMT route. Not sure if they ever ran on the CC or D. The 6400s were mothballed at some point because of their unreliability, but were pressed back into service when the R-46 truck cracking problem surfaced. Eventually, the R-16s came full circle and returned to the Eastern Division, where they spent their final days before being put out of their misery.
When I was a kid in the 60's, I mostly rode the IRT and the BMT Broadway Line (I lived on 14th Street). I distinctly remember seeing R-16's on BMT locals (The RR, TT, and QT in those days) intermixed with R-27's and R-30's. I used to like to walk from car to car and remember that in any one of those trains, some cars had seats that faced forward (the R-16's).
Did you see any number markings on the R-16 route signs? They didn't receive new curtains with letter markings until Chrystie St.
BTW, the TT didn't run via Broadway except for one time during a flooded tunnel. It normally went to Chambers St. via the Nassau loop.
The R-16s had number markings on their route signs until Chrystie St. opened in 1967, when they got new route signs with letter markings.
Prior to Chrystie St., they never operated on the BMT southern division (well, never say never ... I recall once when I was in high school in the early 60s seeing a chartered trian of R-16s full of school kids pull through DeKalb Ave. without stopping).
Immediately after Chrystie St. opened, they mixed with R-27/30s on the QJ, RJ and RR, with their new route signs.
-- Ed Sachs
This must've been post 1967. The R16 never ran on the Broadway BMT prior to Chrystie. The TT was a Nassau St, not Broadway service. The T was a Broadway express route via the bridge. Prior to Chrystie, the QT and RR trains were almost exclusively R27/30/32. Afterwards, the RR & EE ran practically everything on wheels.
The R16's, after November 1967, migrated from the Eastern Division to the Southern Divison RR service via the RJ service.
And shortly thereafter they appeared on the E/F/GG/EE as well.
In my first days of numbers-taking, that being early 1969, quite a few R16 were spotted on the "RR". 84 of these were first sighted in "RR" service.
By LATE 1969, they were over on the "EE" and "GG".
wayne
Here's an unusual example. Note the #2 marking.
And one with a grafted RR sign:
Didn't they have destination signs for Astoria and 95th Street ? All I remember seeing in that era was a cardstock RR sign slapped on the front DESTINATION window (even when they ran on the RJ) and a cardstock 95 STREET on the side south sign.
Eventually, the R-16s came full circle and returned to the Eastern Division, where they spent their final days before being put out of their misery.
lol......"put out of their misery" being the key words.....
The R-16s were at one end of the spectrum. "Being put out of their misery" is an appropriate moniker for them. Now at the other end you have the Triplexes, which were still running beautifully when they were needlessly and prematurely sent to slaughter.
I'm actually glad that folks here fondly remember those turds - as a Bronx boy who worked the IND, I remember those as "QB's" ... those horrid pokes that my R1/9 would get STUCK behind until we got past DeKalb and they went THEIR way up Broadway instead of holding up 6th Avenue. And RR's of course too which fortunately my trains didn't meet. But I sure remember the 16's as trains that would screw up the railroad daily, and LEADERS to a string of reds in their wake that didn't clear. :)
I realize folks are a bit dewey-eyed, but to me they were "stretch IRT cars" and little more than railroad-kill ...
Were trains really referred to as dogs back then if they tended to buck or otherwise foul things up? Did you ver have to deal with a bucking train?
OH YEAH ... and yes, every trainride it seemed was the "ride the bull" ... you had dead motors and brakes that didn't fully release (the famous R-10 *BANG!!!* sound file as but one example) so you'd yank power, slack action would catch a dead car, BANG! And there'd be more than one BO car in every consist somewhere ... same on the braking as cars with brakes cut out would use the car in front of it as a moving wall to slow it down. Add a smorgastrain with different rigging, different motor characteristics and timing and it could be a wild ride.
Then there were the dogs that would lay down on the track. Changing ends to go back and "rescue" a train that couldn't climb a grade, 4 car trains with shoes off that would "gap" that needed an add, a push and a cut ... life in the TA was once "anything can happen day" ... made it interesting and assured overtime. :)
Were they ever used on KK or K service through the Chrystie Street connection? This may be a possibility.
I don't think they did any time on the CC, C, or D.
How about HH Rockaway Shuttle service?
What about Q, QB, or QT service prior to Chrystie Street? They were still pretty much Eastern Division when that service was running.
And I don't think they clocked any time on the T or TT West End.
No to all of the above.
NY1 has a short article on the TA's war against pigeons.
http://www.ny1.com/NewsBeats/transit.html
They've done Bay 50th. The one I remembern as needing pigeon removal is City Hall on the Broadway BMT.
Pigeon droppings are corrosive, and shorten the useful life of things like the cables on the Brooklyn Bridge.
Am I missing something? Why is this a fifty-thousand dollar device? Are we talking about spending $50,000 per station? I'm sure that farmers don't spend anywhere near that amount on electric fences to contain their livestock, and I assume this scheme is similar to an electric fence. I smell a scam.
Or a rat.:-)
7626-30 and 7651-55 are out road testing for the 6, and not for the 4. It was thought that 7651-55 would be the start of the 4 Line Fleet, but this may have changed. There's still the matter of Cars 7641-45 and 7656-60. Where these will go is anyone's guess!
-Stef
Hey Stef, Yesterday i saw #7661-#7665 on the middle track @ Pelham Parkway Station #2 line.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Thanks for the report. These cars are going to the 4, the question is when?
-Stef
This time the three letters railroad officials fear most, FRA, revisited.
I had another column all put to bed and ready to transmit across the Hot Times on the High Iron network. However, the events of the past couple of days has forced me to save that column for another day and pretty much demanded I write about this topic instead.
For those of you who are fairly new to Hot Times, a couple of years ago I did a two part piece about what happens when the Federal Railroad Administration visits a railroad property. It generally is not pretty and from there tends to get very ugly, very fast at times. If this story doesn’t put the fear of God and the FRA into some railroad officials, nothing will. This story is one, actually two of those kind of days.
Our saga begins on June 3rd at Glenn Yard. Unbeknownst to me as I walked into the door this day, the FRA has paid another visit to the CNIC to inspect the operations. I was called for 1220 hours for train 322, my new assignment. As I walked into the yard office the Conductor on one of the Glenn road switcher assignments greeted me. He asked what job I was working and I told him 322. He laughed and said,
"Better get a Snickers bar, you aren’t going anywhere for a while."
When I inquired as to why he told me the FRA was here today and just starting to inspect our train. He also mentioned they had already bad ordered the power we were scheduled to have today to pull this train around. The Yardmaster said we had 145 cars today, but more than likely we would have less by the time the Feds were finished with it. Not a good way to begin the day. As I would later learn, the G-men were to be all over the CNIC system for the entire week. We all know what this means, trains will be delayed
About 1400 or so it was decided Markham instead of waiting for the inspection of our train to be completed, they would cab us to and get a train out of there. So off we go via the Trainmaster’s truck to Markham. After arriving there and waiting for awhile, we finally get our train doubled up and paperwork that was correct. (This took two tries). We departed Markham at 1720 and had a somewhat uneventful trip to Champaign. Uneventful if you discount my trailing unit, the IC 6051 kept running hot and setting off the alarm bells.
We now move ahead to Tuesday the 4th. We were ordered out of Champaign at 1400 hours for our usual train 325. At 1400 we are still at the hotel awaiting transportation to the yard. I tried to call the Yardmaster but kept getting his voice mail. I finally was able to contact the Caller to find out where our ride was. She was not happy, as the cab company had just called her informing her they had no drivers available to come and pick us up. This is a new cab company at Champaign for us and they have been unimpressive at best thus far. They seem to have problems finding drivers. I guess that is what happens when you pay your help $7 per hour for twelve hours a day.
The Champaign Yardmaster finally arrived about 1440 or so to pick up both us and the crew for 333 who was ordered for 1430. Upon our arrival at the yard we were appraised of the following scenario; 333’s train was on the main track at Champaign. An empty grain train to head out to The Anderson’s elevator west of Champaign on Norfolk Southern’s Mansfield District was parked on the siding. Our train was on the outbound runner pulled up to Leverett Jct. The Gilman-Champaign Local (train 553) was on track two in C Yard right along side of our train. And the FRA was in town. Today is already far worse than yesterday.
For some reason, they seemed to be in a big hurry to get us out of the nice, comfortable,
air conditioned yard office and onto our train. Don’t know why as we are likely not going anywhere anytime soon. My Conductor, Andy Paolone and James Mingo, the Conductor of 333 were trying for over thirty-five minutes to reach the Desk Two Dispatcher to let him know about our work en route. Most of the time train 325 does no work between Champaign and Markham, but today would be different. And based on what they had set up for both 333 and us it would be another real feat of railroading that is, if things happened to go according to plan. Of course we are fully aware of the fact that plan A never has a chance anyway.
Neither Conductor could get through for this entire time. Each of them were trying on separate telephones with the hope that he would answer one of them and then the phone could be handed over to the other to talk to the Dispatcher as well. Both phones were on speaker with one ringing constantly and the other giving the message to "Please continue to hold your call will be answered in the order it was received."
Here is what was planned; a Champaign road crew would take the train off the siding and head out to Anderson’s. 553 would depart Leverett Jct. heading north first. We would be leaving ahead of 333 as we had pick ups to make at Gilman and Otto. 333 would follow us, as he had to make a set out at Gilman onto the track we cleared out. His set out was a bit of a pain though, as he had to do it from the rear of his train. This means he would hang onto his entire train and set out the very rear block of cars. He would also set out at Chebanse.
Now let us see exactly how well the ambitions of this plan fell into place. First off, the NS won’t take the crew to go out to Anderson’s until 1730 as they claimed a train was out there already. The crew on the empty grain train would go dead on the hours at 1830. Can you say suicide mission? When all was said and done with that, they didn’t make the attempt and were tied up instead.
The FRA was presently inspecting 553 along with the Car Inspectors. Our train while worked was not inspected yet. Undaunted, they decided to haul us up to the head end of our train anyway, along with 333’s crew. Now being that it is currently some 92°, I see no real reason we need to be sitting in the cab of this oven, I mean, locomotive right now. The powers that be at CN do not believe we need air conditioning for our locomotives, but do for offices and company cars and trucks. I see no logic to their "no A/C for crews" policy unless they believe we need to sweat off some weight. I guess in my own case this would really be "Sweating it off with the oldies." But what do I know? According to one of our Trainmasters, I should be thankful that I even have a job. Of course he said this while sitting in his air-conditioned office just before scurrying out to his air-conditioned company truck that he keeps running at all times when it is hot outside.
When the G-Men were done with 553, they had to set out seven bad orders. They did so and finally departed at 1740. At 1800 we still did not even begin an air test yet alone start dealing with bad orders. Whenever the time comes that we get finished with the setting out of bad orders, performing the air test and then departing, we will have the southbound fleet to meet. This would include Amtrak 391 and 59, CNIC trains 322, 194, 397, 281 and 326 and also northbound Amtrak 392. And then there is the possibility of a Norfolk Southern or two in the mix. There is also an extra 322 at Rantoul, although I don’t believe he is heading this way yet. The block is lined for a southbound movement out of Rantoul though as I can see the northward block signal at 121.8 is displaying a restricted proceed (red) aspect. It is very likely Desk Two Dispatcher Jimmy Morrisey has lined 391 up to come south and 322 gets to sit and wait some more. He has already been waiting quite a while as it is. That’s okay though, they are good until 2200. Should I take the opportunity to again comment about the efficiencies of single track? Nah, it goes unsaid.
A storm is brewing on the horizon and we are keeping close tabs on its approach. Should we have to wind up setting out bad orders, Andy isn’t going to want to get wet. You know I certainly don’t want to. The only thing more pathetic than the sight of a wet puppy is a wet Engineer. Conductors and Brakemen were born to get wet. (I suppose I’ll from all kinds of them now).
A southbound grain train, 870 passed us here at Leverett at 1755. He has to re-crew at the yard office and his engines also need to be refueled as well. This means they have to cut off the train, cross over into the yard and put the engines on the pocket track where engines are fueled and sanded here at Champaign.
You know I did make a comment to Andy when we first boarded our power that, knowing our luck, we would probably be here to see 391 go south. Gee, how prophetic it appears I am.
At this moment, it is 1820 hours and there is more to come.
Amtrak 391 came to a stop at Leverett Jct. at 1833. 870 is still getting their engines refueled. About 1838 they tied back onto their train. He will still have to pump up the air on his one-hundred or so cars, get a set and release of the brakes to positively ascertain brake pipe continuity with FRED on the tail end and depart.
Amtrak 392 is due to depart the Champaign Amtrak station at 1855. However, with the grain train and 391 to move first, it is very likely 392 will be sitting at Tolono, the first siding south of Champaign and waiting for this little parade.
At 1850 the rains make their appearance along with lots of thunder and quite the lightning show. "Listen to the rhythm of the falling rain….."
1855 hours; 391 is talked by the stop signal at Leverett Jct. and pulls up behind the stopped 870.
I hear Desk 2 tell 392 they will head in behind a stopped train in the siding at Tolono, meet 870 and 391 there, back out of the siding behind them and then head north. This means 391 will follow 870 all the way to Tuscola, the next siding south of Tolono. 870 will head in at Tuscola and 391 will run around him there; so much for any on-time performance money from Amtrak today.
870 gets rolling about 1905. The extra 322 train (actually M32260-04) has been moved up from Rantoul to Leverett Jct. and gets talked by the stop signal there behind the parade. The Engineer on this train, being referred to as "first 322" reports his end of train telemetry has failed and will either need a new battery or to be replaced altogether.
391 performs his station work at the Champaign Amtrak station departing there at 1917, only fifty-two minutes behind schedule. In the meantime, one of the Car Inspectors is torn away from our train to take care of the telemetry troubles on first 322.
Down the road 870 and 391 meet train 335 and Amtrak 392 patiently waiting behind him in the siding at Tolono. Normally 391 and 392 swap train crews, but not engine crews where they meet and today as per the plan, it is at Tolono. Only they normally perform this chore about an hour earlier. 392 is talked out of Tolono behind 391 and heads north completing his station work. When he departs the depot he is talked by the stop signal at Champaign and into the siding on top of the now crewless Anderson’s grain train. After first 322 goes south 392 is backed out of the siding and comes north. He passed us at 2026.
1944 hours; one of the Car Inspectors calls me and we arm up FRED and perform the emergency dump test. All is successfully accomplished. The first thing to go right this day.
2025 hours; the Yardmaster calls the Car Inspectors wanting to know how many bad ordered cars have been repaired thus far. The answer is "about half." I contacted one of the Car Inspectors to see how many bad orders there were total and he tells me about thirty-two or thirty-four. The Yardmaster then tells them they have about twenty to twenty-five more minutes of time to work on them before they must stop and then have us set out the rest.
The regular 322 (M32261-04) meets us at 2100 pulls down to the office and changes crews there.
2120 hours; the lead job working at Champaign calls and informs us they will assist us in kicking out the remaining bad ones. I told them we still have the Car Department’s blue flags (which protect them in this track and prohibit my moving of the train) in place and they will need to be removed first.
2155 hours; Car Inspector Jimmy "Huck" Farris shows up to remove the blue flag from the rail, the blue flag from the control stand on the IC 1016, my lead unit and also the "effective locking device" from the switch in front of us. This will allow young Andy to operate this switch for our movement and permit us to begin the chore of kicking the bad orders out of our train. This process began at 2225 and was completed at 2355.
At 0022 hours we get our air test, including getting a new end of train telemetry device, going through the procedure to arm and emergency dump test it again. We now have to get all new paper work, as our train is now considerably smaller in size. We started out with 43 loads, 85 empties, 8,438 tons and 7,643 feet of train. We finally departed with 29 loads, 57 empties, 5,800 tons and 5,191 feet of train. In addition to the bad orders, we also kicked out a bunch of good cars in the interest of saving some time.
We received our new paperwork and finally departed Champaign at 0032 hours. As we were departing, the Desk 2 Dispatcher called and informed us a relief crew would meet us at Rantoul and we would swap out there and take his cab back to Glenn Yard and tie up. We met them about 0100, exchanged our pleasantries and information about the train and motive power, loaded up into the cab and took the long ride home. Andy commented about this being a "train from hell" and we laughed.
I should make a mention that this was our "getaway" day or our Friday. I am scheduled with a rest day of Wednesdays on this job. It never fails; things have a way of going straight to hell on getaway day and we wind up starting later, like today, and then wind up working twelve hours or more. I believe the railroad gods derive some sort of perverse pleasure from this.
We finally made it back to Glenn Yard and tied up at 0445 this morning. While talking to Yardmaster Kevin O’Connor upon our arrival there, he informed us that the re-crew of our train was dead on the rail at Gilman. Apparently both engines died and they could not get them to restart. When Andy heard this news he said, "Gee, I guess it really was a train from hell." The railroad gods were probably roaring with laughter over that remark.
The story you have just read is true. Despite my creative nature and abilities, there is no way I could ever be creative enough to fabricate something of this nature. None of the names have been changed, as nobody was innocent.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
All I can say is wow....
A lot of railroads today are JUST like the transit authority in the 70's. ('graf included, no waiting) ... I *love* Tuch's stories because they are so oh familiar. :)
Freight railroading !@#$%^&*()+ trust me. And where I worked [BN and MRL] there was no holding a regaular run on a road pool; you were on call most of your life if you weren't on duty, and worked every shift in a time frame...could go from midnights to PM's to Am's and back in any order. The money was great but it wasn't living only if you loved trains [and the paycheck, that keeps a lot of people going]
It was a fun day on the IRT , A C/R who will go nameless was arrested today at 242 V.C for sexual misconduct. It seems to be that he was flashing or should we say Mooning people at the 181st and Dyckman st stations .Is this really a crime ?
Disruption of service.
Out of uniform!
Wait, did he have his vest on??
Did he have his vest on??
And probably not much else!
Nah, gotta have those safety glasses!
Do they make glasses those large? And do they also make a false mustache to hang from the bottom of them? :)
>>>>>>Is this really a crime?
Yeah, a crime of utter stupidity.
Seriously, it's a simple misdemeanor in which the (soon to be former) C/R will get probation and/or community service.
What is scary is that if was a priest he would still have a job.
... But he would have been moved to a different division.
Yes.
No visable means of support.
Wrong, possession of crack with intent.
With intent to smell?
Sorry, I know I am pushing it - but could not help myself
Hahahahaha ... after all, it is the only politically correct orifice. Everybody's got one.
How about propositioning a kid looking out the railfan window?
Was it a full, 3/4 or 1/2 Moon?
Gotta make the punishment fit da crime....
Not on the Flashing line?
Was the conductor on duty at the time? I could find no official report to cover any such incident.
I am told thay only 22 slant R40's are currently assigned to ENY. Mixed marriage 4426/29 and 4430 to 4449. All the others are now assigned to CI. With only 2 trains of slants running on the L, if you want pix, you had better get them soon........It looks like the R42's are now undergoing a re-flooring program. Thus far I observed 4854/55 and 4918/19 with the new black floors.........Next week we'll know what the OPTO status will be for the M line for the fall pick. A new start to pick date was published today: 6/17/02........Rumor has it that a just arrived trainset of R143's are being prepared for dedicated M service. Naturally with OPTO M service on the horizon for September, R143's will be seen on Ninth Ave/Bay Pkwy. M service as well come September.
>>It looks like the R42's are now undergoing a re-flooring program. Thus far I observed 4854/55 and 4918/19 with the new black floors<<
I would figure the R-68's would get the new floors since they are bubbling up and being patched. The R-68's will be around longer than the R-42's. Maybe these floors were a hazard and had to be done ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Train Dude informed us recently that the reflooring of the 68's has been put off for a year or so.
That is too bad. Some of my best railfanning was on the L coming out of Manhattan in a Slant. Blowing out those red lights as we went by on our way under the East River ... of what a ride !
Mr rt__:^)
Well, this afternoon around 12:45pm, I boarded a Manhattan bound L slantR40 at Livonia. Lead car was 4447. Had the railfan window from Myrtle to 6Av. Saw another slantR40 at Dekalb Ave heading towards Canarsie. Poor girl was sandwiched between THREE R143s. One in front of her and two directly behind her. After a lunch date, I caught another slant R40 on the Q which I took from Times Square to Dekalb. I wish I had my camera. I guess its time to start taking pics of the last SlantR40s on the L and the last Redbirds on the 2.......
I got three of the 2 yesterday -- one exterior at E180 and two interior at Flatbush. I was hoping for another exterior at 59th but too many people got off.
OKAY the W Train has been with the TA Since 7/22/01. The V is only 6 months old. With the MANNY B REOPEN IN 2004. TA will be making huge changes. The changes that possibly may or may not have an affect on V and W. Since the W and V appearance, dislike W and V rumors has been flying around (Gene Russianoff's is one of them). Some us here hate the V and Some of us here hate the W. And I'm not sure if TA has yet paying attention these rumors. Should the V and W stays or one of them has to go or both of them has to go.
Lets Votes
A. Both V and W stays in the system forever.
B. TA should get rid of the W
C. TA should get rid of the V
D. TA should get rid of both V and W.
I choose (A)
I would pick A IF you took out the word "forever." Seeing as how the system is always changing, the V and W are good trains for their respected lines and stops at this point. For example, if the Manny B opens up both sides in 2004 like they are supposed to, it should be B/D on one side N/Q on the other side. Bye Bye W unless it wants to be a local from Astoria to Whitehall, though that service has been done by diamond N in the past.
>>Since the W and V appearance, dislike W and V rumors has been flying around (Gene Russianoff's is one of them).<<
Why should people dislike the (W) ? It's only a temporary thing until the Manny B opens in 2004, then the (B) returns to the West End. Don't some people realize you can't run the (B) down to Coney island because of the Manny B ?
MY vote is "B", because the TA will get rid of the (W) in 2004.
Bill "Newkirk"
>MY vote is "B", because the TA will get rid of the (W) in 2004.
Will Stillwell Avenue reconstruction be finished by then?
Stillwell construction doesn't affect the W. The W is simply a temporary name for the southern half of the B since when the last bridge flip-flop took place, people thought having two B and two D trains was too confusing. My suggestion would be to eliminate the W and leave the V in 2004.
Not now it doesn't. But on 9/8/02, it will. The W will be the only train running to/from Stillwell beginning on 9/8. It will also be the only train in the Montague tunnel during late nights beginning on that date. If the B returns to Brooklyn before Stillwell construction is finished, what will serve the stations between DeKalb Avenue and Canal St? They would either have to restore late-night R service north of 36th Street or have the N or Q go through Montague during late nights if the W is eliminated in 2004.
>>you can't run the (B) down to Coney island because of the Manny B?<<
Well Actually you can if you rerouted B via Broadway line instead change it to W.
>Gene Russianoff's is one of them
Who cares? He likes and blasts almost everything.
And he is the mother-in-law of transit, lots to say about everything, no power and no solutions.
Gene Russianoff is the mother-in-law? The guy himself doesn't even know what he's talking about. Read the "Ad's fo tha V! Daily News Article" You can tell that he's full of sh*t. Chris R16 was right, he's not trasit advocate. He just trying act like one in front of the audience.
Modified (B)
Keep the V and turn the W into an Astoria to Whitehall local.
With B ending at 34th St. you can have a W since you are only running half the length of the B. Run the B and W to Stillwell, where are you going to get the cars to maintain the current headway during rush hour??
I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, but it wouldn't take any extra cars if West End service were kept constant, with trains alternating between Broadway and 6th Avenue.
Why not run the B to Bay Parkway and the W to Stillwell? Having both the B and W terminate at Stillwell limits the number of TPH per line, but if the B terminates at Bay Parkway and the W at Stillwell, I would think they could still maintain acceptable headways during rush hours on both lines.
What about the M? - Bay Parkway too?
How 'bout 59st / 4th ave? They could turn at 8th ave middle (Sea Beach Express).
I still say that a Broadway / West End express one-way peak train should run after the "resoration of complete service on the bridge" (It's very hard to type that with a straight face!). It could run like the A to Rock Park.
A but neither of them has to keep their current route and as New Flyer said, not forever.
The W will most likely remain post 2004, but only as an Astoria/Broadway local to augment N service to Ditmars. Whether this is a rush hour or all day service is still unknown.
This is 100% pure unadulterated conjecture. The TA has made no decisions; all options are still open. What you suggest may or may not be the final arrangement; we'll find out in a year or two.
Educated conjecture. Everyone in here already knows no decisions have been made. But I'd bet a few $$$ that what I proposed will eventually be adopted.
A lot of people do think the decision has been made.
I'm not interested in taking you up on your offer, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if a different plan is implemented.
Near the end of the bridge work, they're supposed to have massive public input as to how the service should be. Where the bridge plan didn't need a public hearing because it was temporary, the final plan will definitely need one.
Common sense would suggest all day service. Every other through line in Manhattan below 60th St (with a few exceptions) has at least 12 tph during mid-day.
But of course we don't really know.
I'd agree. With the N/Q running express over the bridge, the R alone would be inadequate for Broadway local stops.
My vote is option A. Just because V causes some inconvience to commuters doesn't mean it should be eliminated. There's always more routing options. The line just needs to be extended to Brooklyn. As for the W, I haven't heard any problems regarding its service. If the 2nd Avenue line is ever built, the MTA would likely need the W. It's a toss up between the W and the Q as to which would serve the uptown part of the new line from 63rd Street to 125th Street.
I like them both. I choose A.
I would like to see the V run to Metropolitan Avenue via the Chrystie connection and the Williamsburg Bridge. I would also like to see the W run as the full-time West End service with the B running to Bay Parkway and supplementing the W on weekdays.
The W as it runs today will be eliminated in 2004. Nobody can complain about it since no other service can be run while the bridge only serves Broadway. The V will also have to remain past 2004. It's routing is what's debatable.
I say the V and W will stay after 2004.Wether the V runs the way it does now is left to be seen.As for the W,when the B returns to West End,terminate the W at Bay Parkway,the B at Stillwell and move the M to Bay Ridge to compliment the R,that short section needs extra service especially if an R gets delayed elsewhere and because of that its not till another 20mins or whatever that the next R is able to make it to 95th st.the M definately needs to be sent to 95th st in 2004.
Good thought! But the only problem is that there aren't enough turning capacity for M. My suggestion is to keep the M at west end and have the W running via N in brooklyn from 36 to stillwell. So that Sea Beach had a local and express service. In addition to that keep W running via bridge running between Astoria and Stillwell. And increase R service.
So in reality, Bay Ridge CAN'T have two lines?
When you look at it, I think your plan makes the most sense. The Manny Bridge would be balanced at last:
- North Manny Bridge: B, D
- South Manny Bridge: N (or W), Q
- York St. Tunnel: F, V
- Montague St. Tunnel: W (or N), R
Now, the question lies with the M...Here is a suggestion...
- West End: B express to Stillwell, M local to Bay Parkway
- B late night shuttle to 36th
- M operates similar to V
- Culver: F express to Stillwell, V local to Kings Highway
- F all times on Culver
- V similar to Q on Brighton
- Brighton: D local to Brighton Beach, Q express to Stillwell
- D serves the rest of the way nights, weekends.
- Q = current diamond Q line's route and schedule
- Sea Beach: N skip-stop to Stillwell, W local to Stillwell
- N all times to Stillwell
- W = Astoria-Whitehall local
- Bay Ridge: R all times.
- No changes.
Stillwell, therefore, will then look like this...
- Broadway: N, Q (Replaced by D late nights, weekends)
- 6th Ave: B, F
It would still balance the bridge during late nights:
- North Manny B: D
- South Manny B: N
- York St. Tunnel: F
- Montague St. Tunnel: R
- Off: B, M, Q, V.
And voila! I think this is a plan that is probably the best, and I think may be the default choice. I dunno...just more rambling and stuff like that.
-J!
Your plan is somewhat related to mines that I've here in this board and in www.nycrail.com back number of months ago b4 subtalk went down. Heres a recap of my 2004 Manny B plan.
SERVICE ON THE NORTH SIDE MANHATTAN BRIDGE:
B Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Nights] – All stops, 145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; express stops from 59 Street, Manhattan to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge); Rush Hours extended to Bedford Blvd, The Bronx.
[Nights] – BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All stops from 36 Street to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave.
Transfer to N or R at 36 Street for service to/from Manhattan.
D Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Rush Hours] – Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Rush Hours] – Express Stops in The Bronx on trip to Manhattan (AM rush hrs), to The Bronx (PM rush hrs), express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
SERVICE ON THE SOUTHSIDE MANHATTAN BRIDGE:
N Train: Broadway Local
[Middays/Rush Hours] – All stops in Queens and Manhattan, express stops in Brooklyn from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evenings/Nights] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens, through Manhattan, to Coney Island/ Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Weekends] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 57th Street/7th Ave, Manhattan; express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn; all stops in Brooklyn from Dekalb Ave to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island (via South Side Manhattan Bridge). Transfer to R for local service in Manhattan. On weekends nights, N makes all local stops in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn, from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
*Q Train: Broadway Express (See "Additional Notes:")
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM] – Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn, and N or R for service to/from Manhattan.
Transfer between D N and R at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
W Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge); All stops from 36th St to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via N).
[Evenings/Nights/Weekends]: No Service; Use N instead.
SERVICE ON THE MONTAGUE STREET TUNNEL:
M Train: Nassau Street Local
[Middays] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to 9th Ave, Brooklyn.
[Rush Hours/Evening] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Bay Pkwy, Brooklyn.
[Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
Transfer to J at Myrtle Ave for service to/from Manhattan.
R Train: Broadway Local (See "Additional Notes:")
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
(via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights] – All stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
Transfer to E at 42nd St for local service in Queens.
SERVICE ON THE CULVER LINE:
F Train: 6th Avenue Local
[All Times except Nights] – Express stops in Queens, (71 Ave/Forest Hill and 21 Street/Queensbridge), all stops in Manhattan & Brooklyn, from 179 Street/Jamaica, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
V Train: 6th Avenue Local
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hills, Queens, through Manhattan, to Kings Highway, Brooklyn.
[Nights/Weekends] – No Service; Use F for service to/from Brooklyn, and E for service to/from Queens. Transfer between E and F at West 4 Street, Manhattan.
Nassau Street Lines:
J Train: Nassau Street Express (See "Additional Notes:" for changes)
[Middays] – All stops in Queens, express stops in Brooklyn and Manhattan, from Jamaica Center, Queens to Broad Street, Manhattan,
(J bypasses stations from Myrtle Ave to Marcy Ave, Brooklyn, on trips to Manhattan (AM hrs) and to Queens (PM hrs); use M for bypassed stations.
[Rush Hours] – Same as midday service, except J/Z serve alternate stations (skip-stop service), Sutphin Blvd, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
[Evenings/Weekends/Weeknights] – All stops from Jamaica Center, Queens, through Brooklyn, to Broad Street, Manhattan.
[Weekends Nights] – All stops from Jamaica Center, Queens, through Brooklyn, to Chamber Street, Manhattan.
Z Train: Nassau Street Express (See "Additional Notes:" for changes)
Rush Hours Only: All other times, use J instead.
Additional Notes:
***R Train replace N in Manhattan and portion of Brooklyn between Canal Street and Dekalb Ave when N running via bridge. M runs whole evening until 12AM. Possibly J or Z extended to 95/Bay Ridge, RUSH HOURS MIDDAY and EVENING UNTIL 8PM if turning capacity isn't really the problem. SO DON'T TAKE MY WORD SERIOUSLY. I'M NOT TA. I JUST GOT IT FROM SOMEONE.
As long as Q is remain in Service. Q can be diamond or circle or however the heck TA changing it. Who cares!
OOPS HERE I GO AGAIN;
OOPS HERE I GO AGAIN; Your plan is somewhat related to mines that I've "POSTED" here....
Personally, I say "A" too. But Bill Newkirk is right...You really should take out the "forever" part out of it.
Seriously, I believe when it all comes down to the reopening of both sides of the Manny B, choice "B" is most logical...the W will be French Toast. No matter what, IMO, it's gonna happen...UNLESS it becomes the local on Sea Beach (That would make ole Fred a very happy man!)
This is what service patterns will PROBABLY look like in 2004...
D (6th Ave)/Q (6th Ave): Brighton
R (Broadway): Bay Ridge
B (6th Ave)/M (Nassau): West End
F, V (6th Ave): Culver
N (Broadway): Sea Beach
...There's a nice comfy home for the V, right on Macdonald Ave, being the Culver's local service.
Where DOES this leave the W? That is a question that only the TA can answer for us. Maybe the Sea Beach? Maybe West End? Or even Bay Ridge? That's a question that we can debate until the cows come home, and we would probably be farther from the answer than ever before.
-John Leung
There's no point in saying that any service plan "probably" will happen. As I just wrote on another thread, just about any service configuration that's physically possible given the structural and switch layout of the system is being analyzed.
David
>D (6th Ave)/Q (6th Ave): Brighton
R (Broadway): Bay Ridge
B (6th Ave)/M (Nassau): West End
F, V (6th Ave): Culver
N (Broadway): Sea Beach
Does 6th Avenue need five services?
Oops, forgot to change the Q back to Broadway...
A
Hey, I just set a record for shortest response ever! Yay!
Oops
www.forgotten-ny.com
I choose A of course! - now if they would only change the "W" to "T" I'd be so happy - I'd be partying for a month!!!!
I would be much happier if TA had renamed BDQ properly for the Manhattan Service changes on 7/22/01
B Replace by T
D Replace by W
Q Replace by Yellow diamond Q
I'd join your party.:-)
A. Both V and W stays in the system forever.
V - I wish they'd get on with the South 4th St subway...
W - Astoria - Whitehall only (wouldn't NN be a better designation?)
Choice A, as long as you take out the word forever, just as New Flyer 857 said. Ridership patterns sometimes changes over periods of time.
As for the V and W, both trains can be pretty useful after the MB fully opens. The W could serve as the much-needed second Broadway Local while the N runs express and the V could potentially be expanded into Brooklyn, where passengers in both lower Manhattan and Brooklyn could benefit.
Whats wrong with the word "forever" >>>V and W, both trains can be pretty useful after the MB fully opens<<< You said it yourself. And I'm totally agree with u on that. Reason why I use the word forever was because I hate see the W and V gone by 5 years 10 years or so on. I like the W and V stays on the system. NOT because they are new subway lines. Its because they can help shape a better and easier commuter for everyone. Yes, W could serve as the much-needed second Broadway Local while the N runs express. And It could also serve as the much-needed second sea beach train service as well. As for the V, I think culver riders will be happy if F could use some help. I'm not against anybody opinion. Everyone are entitled to their opinion. And I'm glad that I've brought this topic up here in this board. So I can get the idea on how well TA handles new subway lines (V and W train). AND understand how people felt about having V and W on the system. :)
There is no much-needed second Sea Beach train service. Sorry to break it to you. Check the ridership stats, which have been posted here a few times.
ExpressM,
David G is right. I've rode on the Sea Beach Line during rush hours on several occasions in the peak direction. By rush hour standards, it's not that heavily used. The N starts getting crowded (or empties out) at around 59 Street.
As for the term "forever" I only meant that ridership patterns can change. A line that is heavily used today may not be heavily used 20, 30 or 40 years from now. If for example the Broadway Local trains becomes unpopular, for whatever reason, 20 years from now, it wouldn't make sense to still run two Broadway Locals. Today though, two Broadway Locals are definitely needed.
See this message (and reply) on trainorders.com:
(there's one response as of this posting)
Amtrak and Transit Board
what is this sh____________!! that U have to pay $7.oo plus 2
see some train pictures ??
?????????????.............................!
I have so many shots of the 'D-Types' on Memorial day. But I dont feel like giving any (Not to them at least)
Is the lineoleum floor replacement program on the Kawasaki R-62's over ? What fleet would be next, the R-68's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hmm, this brings up something up to me as well. Will the R62A's get the same treatment or are they being left alone for the time being?
How would feel about if the MTA was ambitious enough to utilize it in their subways and buses? Would you mind much if it got major projects done like the 2nd Avenue subway done faster?
Like a DBOM concept?
What's that?
Design
Build
Operate
Maintain
Or do you mean a Corporate Sponsorship type of thing?
Like, perhaps, the "IBM Second Avenue Subway", the "McDonald's Car", or "Grand Central Terminal, sponsored by Cysco"?
Chip
It means if you win the bid, you design it, you built it, you operate it, and you maintain it for a period of at least ten years. Look across the river at the light rail. That's a DBOM system.
Perhaps you could elaborate what you mean by corporate funding. I mean, I don't think anyone would mind if Megagiant Conglomerated Enterprises just decided to drop a few billion to give NYC a new subway line, but I don't think that kind of no-strings-attached corporate philanthropy is what you had in mind...
Mark
A corporation funds the subway, it then profits from it.
Either a higher fare would be charged, or the government would be paying back the money. The government already uses bonds for things like this, and since government bonds tend to be more reliable, they also tend to have lower interest.
I think that the subway should charge a fare that would allow it to turn a profit, it would then be owned by a publicly held corporation
There was a time when many transit systems were run by private corporations, but they are no more for a variety of reasons.
Here's a question: how high a fare would be required for the transit operator to earn a profit?
Mark
There was a time when many transit systems were run by private corporations, but they are no more for a variety of reasons.
Because of all the FREEways that compete with them. Either way, someone pays. User fees are better than taxes because you don't force people to pay for things they don't use.
Here's a question: how high a fare would be required for the transit operator to earn a profit?
The old profitable 5¢ fare was much larger when adjusted for inflation. It didn't bother anyone. Politicing the fare is another thing that ruined privately-owned mass transit.
Actually, if one were to scrutinize the finances of the private
subway era, the nickel fare was never really sufficient.
With the current "farebox ratio", if the fare were to cover all
of the costs of a subway ride, it would be close to $3.00
Of course, if a corporation were running the system instead of
a quasi-government agency, costs might be lower.
By the means of advertising, of course.
Here's an example of corperate funding:
In São Paulo, an all new line is being planned, Line 4-Yellow, for the subway down there. Phase 1 opens 2004, and phase 2 in 2009. The line is being funded by several private banks and will be run by a company for 20 years. After 20 years, the lines will be turned back over the Metro authority, CMSP. The reason that this line can be fully funded by private sources is that the line is projected to carry an unbelevable amount of passengers: 850,000/day for phase 1 and 1,000,000/day for phase 2. And there's only going to be 12 stations on this line!!!
So they can charge the normal R$1,70 (~70 cents) one way fare like the rest of the system and still make a profit. If a private line is built in the US, the fare would be too high that no one would use it if the rest of the subway is cheaper.
I did a parody of a private line over on Harry's website a while back. The idea was built around my cherished Myrtle Avenue Express, with Manhattan trunks on Fifth and Ninth Avenues.
Fares from the outling areas (East of Jamaica Center / Main Street would be $4.50, from western Brooklyn and Queens, $3.00, and from Manhattan (within Manhattan... Or within any one single zone) $1.50.
Will they pay extra to ride this? Well in Eastern Queens it *is* the only show in town. In Western Queens if you want a fast train with a seat, yes, if you want cheap, no.
The other thing that a private company would have going for it is lower labor costs. It is 95% computerized, (Mostly so that the schedule can be accurately kept.) with high speeds (75 mph Jamaica Center to downtown Brooklyn).
I think it would fly! Shall we round up some investors?
Elias
Hmm... the wording reminds me of PBS.
Next thing you know there'll be MTA pledge drives...
Come on, you use it every day whether you like it or not. It's time to support your local transit agency! Free tote bag and coffee mug, plus gift certificate for the Transit Museum (not valid for Metrocard purchases).
PBS: Public Broadcasting SCAM! (all non-profits are scams)
If memory serves the R33WF in the Transit Museum is car 9306.
I saw a recent posting in another board that 9306 was scrapped and 9307 is the museum car.
Is 9306 really 9307 and just had the number plates switched?
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanks
Allan
You mean the fake #9306 at SBK Yard is really Ex R21 #7261 & the real R33WF #9306 is in Transit Museum also R33WF #9307 is still running on #7 line. I have few pictures of fake #9306 Ex R21 #7261 & i did send to Dave P.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Thank you David.
I knew I wasn't going nuts (well no more than I already am).
A Midtown Direct train derailed on the switches leading up to the ramp to the Northeast Corridor tracks.
I was able to get a great view from my NEC train this morning. The ALP44 locomotive was almost leaning on it's side. I'm not sure if there were passengers on the train.
Of course the NJT website says there are "mechanical difficulties" this morning......
NJT site now admits derailment and states all MidTOWN Direct Trains will run to/from Hoboken and for NYC peopel to take PATH to Hoboken.
Buses will honor train tix. There is massive delays on service to/from 'Boken.
The cars derailed but stayed upright (thank goodness).
Hope they get it cleared up for the PM.
There is massive delays on service to/from 'Boken.
No great surprise there, with two of the four main tracks under Bergen Hill closed for tunnel repairs.
No it doesn't, it says due to a derailment in kearny. The ALP-44 was 4428 and the comet III that derailed was 6001.
No it doesn't, it says due to a derailment in kearny. The ALP-44 was 4428 and the comet III that derailed was 6001.
Yo Moe,
When R16 Lover wrote that the NJT website ascribed the problems to "mechanical difficulties", that's what the website said. Their statements change from time to time.
Thanks for the numbers.
Of course this won't be official for a few days but the 'rumor' is the engineer ooopsed. The rumor is he passed a signal and backed his train up (of course there is an event recorder that will tell the whole story). The one car either picked the switch or the switch moved under it, sending the car down two tracks. The damage estimates for the loco is roughly $40,000 and the Coach is $20,000. I don't know about he damage to the track.
From an AP story:
The accident occurred after the engineer noticed that the train was traveling on a track that would have taken it into Hoboken instead of New York, said NJ Transit spokeswoman Penny Bassett Hackett.
He stopped the train and called the dispatch center to ask for instructions. A supervisor directed the engineer to back up to align the train with the proper track. The engine and lead car derailed when they crossed the open switch.
I wonder how the train managed to derail on a training point switch. At the very worst the reversing train should have simply busted the switch machine.
I don't know the particular section of track involved.
Perhaps the forward movement was through a trailable switch
set against the train. Then, when the train reversed, it
would have split the switch and derailed.
Well the location is where the Kerney Connection (2 tracks) diverges from the Hoboken Main (3 tracks). The engineer went down the straight track to hoboken after missing a Kerney turnout. If the train was backing up and the dispatcher threw (something that should not be possible via switch interlocking) the diverging switch under the train then it should have just trailed through it.
Does anyone know why there are three tracks at the West Falls Church (orange line) and National Airport (yellow and blue lines) stations of the DC Metro?
Mark
National Airport station was used to short-turn some Blue Line trains during rush hours in years gone by.
Also, Huntington opened well before Van Dorn Street, so for many years, while Yellow trains continued to Huntington, Blue trains had to end at National Airport.
National Airport was THE terminal on the line around 1981-1982 when I lived in Arlington.
It still was as well when I moved to DC in 1989. The Yellow line was going to Huntington, but the Blue line terminated at National Airport.
The Van Dorn Street station opened in the summer of 1993, if memory serves, and the Blue Line was extended then.
Mvh Tim
Van Dorn did open in 1993 and at that time, the Yellow/Blue line was susposed to be swapped back to the original routing plan. The Blue line was to go to Huntington, the Yellow to Van Dorn (and later, Franconia-Springfield). The roll signs on the Rohrs only had blue line signs for Huntington and the Bredas had to be reprogrammed to show Huntington as a yellow line destination. If you look at a really old Metro map (I can find one, I should have it somewhere), the blue line would run to the right of the yellow line at Pentagon. When Van Dorn opened, the crossing of the lines was eliminated. As to why this wasn't ever done is beyond me, I think it would make the yellow line have a better reason for its existance, not to mention make the trip from Franconia-Springfield go MUCH faster.
I remember that. Well, the original plan of running the Yellow line out to Van Dorn. As far as the "crossing of the lines", by that, do you mean the Blue would run from Huntington to Addison Road and the Yellow from Franconia to Mt. Vernon Square, or do you mean they just swapped them back and forth a lot?
Speaking of DC's favorite short line, wasn't the Yellow line supposed to (at some time or another) travel to and from Greenbelt, and the Green line turn back at Mt. Vernon Square? I recall seeing an old map that had the Yellow line running out to Greenbelt.
Really, they need either an extension to go straight notrh from Shaw-Howard Univ. that would cross under the current station at Georgia Ave, and then continue (possibly to the Brightwood area, the District line, or Silver Spring), an extension to go east from Shaw, or an extension south from Huntington. The Yellow line has only two stations to itself.
And what's this Purple line I've heard mentioned?
What I meant by crossing over was that the two lines on the map would cross over each other. I could make bitmaps and show you what I mean.
Both yellow and green were suspoesed to go to Greenbelt. I don't think they need that much service on that line.
The purple line is the color for almost every proposed line. The one you probably heard about is the beltway line. It would run in a loop either outside, inside, or inside and outside the beltway connecting Bethesda, Silver Spring, New Carrollton, Greenbelt, Largo, Branch Avenue, Alexandria, and Tysons Corner. Some people want it as a light rail, others as heavy. One of the alignments would be a light rail in the old Georgetown Branch ROW, but it is now a gravel bike trail to be paved over once this whole thing is decided on. I, am one of the people who would much rather see a bike trail there.
Thanks! I get it now. They just twisted past each other.
Every proposed line? Well, that's Dulles International Airport, Laurel, Bowie, Centreville, Largo... wait, Largo's the Blue Line. I've heard about long buried proposals for Lincolnia, Lorton, Woodbridge, Germantown, Olney, Mount Vernon. Actually, Bowie and Laurel were buried as well, and I'm none too sure about the Brandywine/Waldorf proposals
Problem in all these proposals, is they'd all be extensions, with little room for a new color. But, if Metro ever thinks BWI, we could likely see one new color.
The Beltway line was supposed to be red white and blue, the only three-color mix single line to exist. That's the last I recall seeing of it.
West Falls Church's third track is for access to the yard west of the station, it could also be used as the start of a line to Dulles.
National Airport's third track was originally for turning blue line trains. When the yellow line opened, it was used for turning trains, but since no diamond crossover exists at the airport, it was common to see two trains moving through the station in the same direction. When the yellow line was extended to Huntington, the blue line used the middle track to turn around and the yellow lines passed on the outside. I haven't been to the airport in awhile but if you look closely on the northbound (inbound) platform pylons, you could see the covered up arrows indicating that the blue line stopped on the center track.
Any talk of a subway line to Dulles lately? I know there used to be a plan for one, but it's been awhile, and the "purple line" debate seems to be getting more attention even if the plans are still in the works.
Mark
The line to Dulles has been proposed for years. Recently, VA discovered it had some sort of budget shortfall, and many road projects have been delayed. I don't know how this will affect the orange line but I am sure it will.
Isn't there a pier provision for the Dulles line BEFORE you get to West Falls Church? Meaning that a Dulles branch would diverge just before a westbound train reaches WFC?
Yes, that is there too, but I am not in favor of that idea. I think it would be much more beneficial to have the trains stop at West Falls Church, which has a large parking facility, run through the yard, and then onto the Dulles extension.
Speaking of the Dulles Line, a Congressman from Oregon is suggesting that they start building the final stretch of the route now (near Dulles), so that when they decide on a routing, the line will be open sooner and will cost less. The routing near the airport is pretty much agreed on, I believe. It is whether or not the line should serve Tysons Corner and where it should leave the Orange Line is what is subject to the most debate.
I believe I read somewhere that a station shell is already built at Dulles. Is there any truth to this?
That is a rumor, I don't see where in the Dulles Airport facility it could possibly be. I doubt it exists. If the Airport Authority had some common sense, they would build a shell now since they are doing all that other construction now, including a people mover similar to the one at Hartsfield and Denver International to replace the Mobile Lounges. Since the traffic patterns and such are a mess now because of construction, I imagine people would prefer they build the station now as opposed to later. I figure the station will be underground with the line entering the last tunnel at the Sully Road/Route 28 interchange, although an elevated line to the terminal would be cool!
There was a site linked from the Transfer Station section of this website (the link is now dead, I've emailed Dave to let him know) that had a photograph of a grating over a stairway that supposedly accessed the station shell and a detailed description of where that grating was located, also a description of where a second access point was (but no photograph). These locations are in what is currently a parking lot and I would give at least some credibility to them since I cannot imagine losing several parking spaces to a stairway that has no purpose.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why would the stairway to the Metro be in the parking lot? Wouldn't there be a real access (escalator/elevator) from somewhere within the terminal? While I am not an expert on where any false walls, hidden stairwells, and like are in Dulles Airport, having been through most of the main terminal where such a thing would be located, I can not imagine where such a thing might be located. If you do think about it, the ramps that lead to the arrivals roadway do look somewhat like the corridors in the Woodley Park, Cleveland Park, Van Ness, and Tenleytown Stations on the Red Line.
If I recall the info on the site correctly, the two stairwell locations in the parking lot were about the logical distance and orientation to be at one end of a platform, while the logical location for stairwells at the opposite end of the same platform would be in what is currently a service area of one of the terminal buildings. I'm not familiar with the layout of Dulles so I don't know which building. The website indicated that a terminal expansion was planned that would encompass part of this parking lot and that the stairwells currently ending in the parking lot would likely be adjacent to an expanded bus area (for suburban buses).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you can find the website again, that would be great! I don't go out there often but maybe I can take a look around next time I am there.
Oren, here's the link:
http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~carguy/
but it is now a dead link since GWU has shut down that server and its owner hasn't transferred it to the replacement server (he may no longer be a student or staff member, or may have simply decided not to transfer it). The site included photographs of the revenue collection platforms in the system as well, and a few other behind-the-scenes photographs, including the Capitol subway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It may be archived courtesy of archive.org. Unfortunately, archive.org appears to be down right now, so I can't check, but it may be up again when you see this post.
I found this at archive.org:
Metrorail Track and Structures
This is the site I was referencing. My memory said stairway but the site says elevator shaft so I'll presume that my memory is faulty. At one time there was a photograph of this structure available; I thought it was also on that site but perhaps it was elsewhere. It was pretty non-descript looking, in any event, and took up approximately six to eight parking spaces.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where did it say elevator shaft on that site? It said best place to view is unknown. I find it suspicious that it is only a single tracked station, making me discount this even more. Also, they will or already have found this shell because they are building a people mover from the new parking garage to the terminal and it is being built right where the shell would be.
Where did it say elevator shaft on that site?
One free-standing superstructure in the parking lot is covered with concrete slabs. The superstructure is about the size and shape of a Metro® elevator kiosk and may be a ready-built elevator shaft.
It said best place to view is unknown.
To view the actual station shell itself, yes, since any potential access points are not within public areas.
I find it suspicious that it is only a single tracked station...
I agree, that does seem odd... but keep in mind that it was supposedly constructed during the early years of the Metro, when traffic volume was nowhere near what it is today.
The site mentions a design provision for a peoplemover that has apparently not been constructed; is it possible that the one now being constructed is complementary to the one planned for the station, i.e. it would serve both? Just speculating.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Their definition of people mover was the "flat escalators". The people mover I was referring to was the type that they have at the Atlanta and Denver airports between terminals.
Ahh... THAT kind of people mover.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow, I knew that local DC crap is all mungeled up with congress, but does it really take an Oregon Congressman to tell the DC Metro how to do things right? That amuses me. I would have thought Virginia local politicians would be responsible for Dulles expansion, or some independant Semi-governmental thing like the NY-NJ Port Authority is. I wonder how many congressman take the Metro.
The District (occasionally) benefits or (frequently) suffers at the pleasure and whim of Congress. We have no vote in the House or Senate for the Federal taxes we pay, and have to rely on the "kindness of strangers" who may grant audience and the occasional sympathetic ear to our Delegate to the House. This is how WMATA can be led around by any legislator, since there isn't a third entity having a say in things with the states of MD and VA.
The bastion of democracy denies the residents of its capital city the very right of representation everyone else who pays federal taxes receives. If they treat over a half-million taxpayers in their front and back yards like this, is it any wonder why they screw up transit planning and funding?
Ergo, the new DC license plate logo:
"TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION"
Mark
Yep, remember what happened before they could even start building the Metro?
Congressman Natcher from Kentucky held up the funding until several DC freeway projects were approved. Luckily, it was later possible to get them un-approved.
Congress meddles in DC affairs constantly, generally to no good purpose or effect.
Mvh Tim
Wow, I knew that local DC crap is all mungeled up with congress, but does it really take an Oregon Congressman to tell the DC Metro how to do things right? That amuses me. I would have thought Virginia local politicians would be responsible for Dulles expansion, or some independant Semi-governmental thing like the NY-NJ Port Authority is. I wonder how many congressman take the Metro.
I was under the assumption that West Falls Church was the agreed-upon point for the Dulles spur to begin. (would make more sense, considering the three tracks allow for an easy passage) If I am not mistaken, the trains can access the yard (which I can't see from the train itself, BTW, anyone know where it is?) from either of the three tracks, right? All they'd need to do is time it so that Dulles Airport trains are always cleared for the center track westbound, and for the southernmost track (current eastbound track) eastbound, as well as the probably easy task of timing it so that Dulles trains and Vienna/Fairfax trains don't run too close to each other. (The problem with that would be mostly related to an eastbound train from Dulles getting tied up with an eastbound from Vienna, and likely tying up a westbound Dulles train)
Aside from that, has anyone heard anything about an Orange line extension out to Centreville? I recall reading somewhere that there's room in the I-66 median for a rail line and stations all the way to US 50, so why leave it unused?
Turnshort trains, maybe?
-J!
The only regularly scheduled short trains in the system are on the Red Line and operate between Grosvenor and Silver Spring. There are pocket tracks beyond both stations that are used to turn trains, all though I was once on a Silver Spring bound train which used the crossover south of the station, entered on the inbound track, and just waited there until its departure time. There were some Orange Line trains that were put in at West Falls Church in the morning and layed up at New Carrollton, then ran back in the evening and dropped out at West Falls Church, I imagine some trains still do that since the yard is just west of the station.
The only regularly scheduled short trains in the system are on the Red Line and operate between Grosvenor and Silver Spring.
Not entirely true. Those are the only regular "short-turn" trips. But, mostly on weekends, there are a few regular Blue/Orange line trains originating from Stadium-Armory, Rosslyn, National Airport, Cheverly, and L'Enfant Plaza.
Strangely, with all the provisional turnback points on the lines, none of them are ever used, except those that you mentioned. A few weekend Red line trains start their runs out of Union Station, Fort Totten, Metro Center (which doesn't even have a crossover, given that the timetables don't show all stations, this might be out of Dupont Circle or Farragut North, or deadheaded to the Center from Shady Grove), Woodley Park-Zoo (probably out of Van Ness-UDC, but who knows?), and Friendship Heights. Even more strange is the fact that the Fort Totten originationg trips are bound for Glenmont - or Silver Spring in a few cases.
There are pocket tracks beyond both stations that are used to turn trains, all though I was once on a Silver Spring bound train which used the crossover south of the station, entered on the inbound track,
and just waited there until its departure time.
You and me both. And I don't visit DC that often.
There were some Orange Line trains that were put in at West Falls Church in the morning and layed up at New Carrollton, then ran back in the evening and dropped out at West Falls Church, I imagine some trains still do that since the yard is just west of the station.
Indeed, as far as I recall, they still do. I think they pull the excess peak trains at WFC. National Airport Station sees the occasional weekday peak Blue Line turnback, though what gets done with the train is beyond me. If it deadheds to the yard in Alexandria, it might as well be in-service to King Street.
Strangely, with all the provisional turnback points on the lines, none of them are ever used, except those that you mentioned.
There are probably two reasons for this: many of the turnback points were originally terminal stations, like Dupont Circle and Farragut North; and some of them were probably built to provide operational flexibility during service disruptions, not for "regular" use.
The part of the system I work on in Stockholm has three terminals (two lines with separate northern terminals share the same southern terminal) and four additional turnback points. None of the additional turnback points are EVER used in regular (i.e., non-disrupted) service.
Mvh Tim
I wonder just how many rail systems have generally unused turnback crossovers.
As far as DC, This list would make all the original terminals no longer used (or very rarely)
Anacostia
Ballston-MU
Dupont Circle
Farragut North (discontinued twice, first when Dupont Circle opened for red trains, the at the end of the Green line commuter shortcut when the mid-city segment opened (September 18th, 1999 - I still have the pennant))
Fort Totten
Gallery Pl-Chinatown (Yellow/Green line lower level, dropped when U Street was opened)
Rhode Island Ave.
Stadium-Armory (at least, I THINK they don't use the layup track anymore)
U Street-Cardozo
Van Dorn Street
Van Ness-UDC
Wheaton
I omitted Grosvenor and Silver Spring because half the midday and peak Red trains run exclusively between the two stations and do not service Shady Grove or Glenmont (That goes for weekends also) I also omitted National Airport, because, supposedly, a few peak Blue trains short-turn there.
Then there are the other interlocks, which may serve little to no purpose other than for disrupted service. And, didn't the one at Federal Triangle derail a Metro train once? IIRC, those were the first casualties of the system.
Philly has plenty of seemingly useless crossovers as well, though I'm not getting into that bit of detail.
Thanks for the list. I wonder how many of these have actual turnback facilities, though; for example, Gallery Place doesn't -- off-peak, trains would simply wrong-rail from L'Enfant Plaza past Archives to Gallery Place, then change ends and depart Gallery Place on the "right" track. The tracks beyond Gallery Place ended after a short distance at a concrete wall.
Mvh Tim
except for Gallery Place, all of them still have the interlocks, but none of them are used for turnbacks anymore. By some sort of logic, I suppose the Green line could do short trips from Fort Totten to Anacostia, except for a little obstacle that can be summed up in two words: Yellow Line
So, it's none too likely we'll see much activity at any of the original terminals anymore. I bet the only "middle of the road" terminals to remain will be Grosvenor, Silver Spring, and Mt Vernon Sq-UDC (which really isn't a "midway" turnback, since all Yellow trains end there, but it happens to be part of the Green Line thruway.)
Gallery never had a crossover on the lower level. Trains would use either track from north of L'Enfant to Gallery and then double back, switching to the correct track north of L'Enfant. Either track could be used for either direction.
The idea of making short turn Green Lines ending at U Street somehow after Branch Avenue opened arose but hasn't gotten anywhere. Last July 4, some trains did turn there from Branch Avenue, but I don't know how it went.
I take it they'd run from Branch Avenue to U Street. Maybe Georgia Avenue, both stations have the diamond crossovers. But, under that logic, it wouldn't be too long before someone thought, "why not Fort Totten?".
What you'd said earlier about trains being tied up using crossovers instead of layup tracks would probably hold true, though. I suppose timing it so that Green line Branch Avenue/Greenbelt, Green Line Anacostia/U Street, and the Yellow line runs don't get tied up would be easy enough. AFAIK, they run less Green/Yellow trains than Blue/Orange, probably because 1) Less distance is covered, so there's not as much volume, and 2) The Yellow and Blue share some of the same tracks and stations, so they need not exactly match the frequency.
The Green, Yellow, Blue, and Orange lines all run at the same intervals. The Red line runs twice as often as all the other lines, but it doesn't share trackage with any other line.
The reason for the short turn trains on weekends is to provide service around opening time of 8 a.m. Running time from New Carrollton to L'Enfant is about 25 minutes. On weekends, there'a train that leaves L'Enfant around 8 a.m. Otherwise, the first train to Virginia wouldn't arrive until 8:25.
Otherwise, there isn't any short turning on trains, except on the red line.
Michael
The trains starting in the middle of the routes on weekends (and weekdays, too) is not a short turn. That is so if you are waiting at DuPont Circle on Sunday morning, if the first train left Shady Grove at 8, no trains would arrive at DuPont Circle until 8:30. Simply, by starting trains in the middle of the route, there will be a train within about 10 minutes of the opening of the system.
You've got the gist of it there. They're for the (excessively rare) short-turn trips on the Blue or Orange lines. Also, the original Blue line was run from National Airport to Stadium-Armory, hence the pocket track east of Stadium-Armory Station. I think more trains turned back at West Falls Church during its earlier years. I have an old (circa 1995, I think, posibly 1993 - Greenbelt Station was opened, Franconia-Springfield wasn't) Metro guide that mentions Express service they used to have. I've never heard of express trains on the DC Metro, but I think this might have been the same time as the turnbacks at West Falls Church. You might catch a peak hour train using the center track for terminating.
As far as National Airport, some of the early morning weekend Blue Line trains originate there, though I've no clue what track they use. Probably the center track, though, as not to tie up the early Yellow trains from Huntington.
You've got the gist of it there. They're for the (excessively rare) short-turn trips on the Blue or Orange lines. Also, the original Blue line was run from National Airport to Stadium-Armory, hence the pocket track east of Stadium-Armory Station. I think more trains turned back at West Falls Church during its earlier years. I have an old (circa 1995, I think, posibly 1993 - Greenbelt Station was opened, Franconia-Springfield wasn't) Metro guide that mentions Express service they used to have. I've never heard of express trains on the DC Metro, but I think this might have been the same time as the turnbacks at West Falls Church. You might catch a peak hour train using the center track for terminating.
As far as National Airport, some of the early morning weekend Blue Line trains originate there, though I've no clue what track they use. Probably the center track, though, as not to tie up the early Yellow trains from Huntington.
I think that they should extend the Hillside Avenue portion of the IND to Francis Lewis Boulevard in Queens since the subway has already been built. They shouldn't bother with the 181 St. station, but have a station at perhaps 188 St. and Francis Lewis Boulevard.
#3 West End Jeff
I think a lot of things should be done but where to find the money is the problem.
Prison Labor! Instead of making wallets they shoud be building subways. (Sorry, I know it's crual)
Prison Labor! Instead of making wallets they shoud be building subways. (Sorry, I know it's crual)
Don't apologise! You're absolutely right. It is even arguably just to make those who detract from society to put something into it - even if we have to chain them up to do it.
But they'd do a shoddy job!
If a wallet is shoddy, no big deal. If a subway is shoddy, BIG DEAL!
And what will happen to the license plate industry? Again posters at SubTalk are shafting drivers once more.
Well, now! We don't actually know that the subway has been built. This is just something a TA employee said to a poster on this board. Doesn't prove anything.
That said, any extension of the Hillside Line is OK in my book. If it were up to me, I'd have it extneding to 268th St, with the easternmost part of the station litterally abutting the Nassau County line.
:-) Andrew
A 1939 proposal of extended transit in Queens included the extension
of the Hillside Line to Little Neck Road [Parkway]. Never came to
fruition. It also included extending the Flushing Line to Bell Blvd., with a spur to College Point. Many things were altered post WWII. As Bill from Maspeth stated, all is possible, if funding were
available. But now we have NIMBYs also. >G<
:-) Sparky
I see this extension as NIMBY-proof, if it stopped at Frnacis Lewis Blvd. Queens Village and Hollis are already full of E/F riders who must use busses to get to 179th or Jamaica Ctr. A 2 track spur leading from the upper level east of 179th St to Francis Lewis Blvd. should be fairly easy to build.
But, the $$$ doesn't exist and the 2nd Ave line needs to be built first.
Take some money from the military, who needs space elevators?
who needs space elevators?
To go to space?
Why? Do we have any real space colones in space (no ISS)?
Do we have any real space colones in space (no ISS)?
No, but don't you think an elevator would make it easier to build colonies?
do you have the technolgy to do it?
We will by the time we have an elevator to space.
Agreed. You could probably get the subway to 188th as a first step for $100 million, which is peanuts in the MTA world. You only need 5-6 blocks of tunnel (the layup tracks end at 182) and then you need a station, which represents most of the cost.
It also included extending the Flushing Line to Bell Blvd., with a spur to College Point. Many things were altered post WWII.
Was the extension to College Point supposed to follow the ROW of the old LIRR Whitestone Branch? It's a shame that line didn't last a little longer as that line would have made a great subway expansion.
At the moment it's not handy. Also no street names mentioned for
alignments. Just color coded by division and the street of terminal
mentioned. There were quite a number of variations from the IND
second system. Won't be going North, till the 14th and posting
further data from it prior to the 17th. Even shows two lines
running north from 57th Street under Central Park. Central Park is
not outlined on the map either. When I do fetch it,
I can only describe the contents. So be patient.
If some other SubTalkers has excess, please do post.
Thank you,:-) Sparky
Quite true. Though, back then, the Whitestone Branch didn't pull enough ridership to warrent the continuation of it, so off it went...
College Point, IMO, has been greatly affected by this. Probably, subway expansion would be a waste considering the fact it's not overly populated there.
College Point is actually quite dense considering its distance from Manhattan.
:-) Andrew
Probably, subway expansion would be a waste considering the fact it's not overly populated there.
You should see the pictures of the Corona Line (later Flushing Line) running through open fields in Queens. Those areas were not populated AT ALL, but the subway opened them up. If there was a subway to Whitestone, the density there would undoubtedly be greater.
I agree with you there, but no one's going to see a subway there. It's so far from anything.
It's so far from anything.
I'm sure some people said the same thing when they saw a new elevated line on Queens Blvd about 1915.
Well, that only applies to Queens Blvd. because it's right smack in the middle of Queens, where everyone can access it. Believe me, CP doesn't need one.
It's so far from anything.
I'm sure some people said the same thing when they saw a new elevated line on Queens Blvd about 1915.
Well, that only applies to Queens Blvd. because it's right smack in the middle of Queens, where everyone can access it. Believe me, CP doesn't need one.
And if a subway was planned for CP the nimby's living there would notice that what happened in the past along Queens Blvd is about to happen to them. People will move to a less built up area if a subway goes there. It has happened all over the city since the first subway was planned 100 years ago.
Don't more people per sq mile increase the property taxes. Therefore making more money for the city that can be used to payback the subway?
No. Property tax is paid on the property, by the property owners.
It *is* assessed according to its value, so a big apartment building will be assessed (and taxed) more than a two room bungalo, but the denser population, by itself, does not mean a higher tax base. I am sure that city housing projects do not pay a city property tax.
Once upon a time...
You had to own property (and pay property taxes) in order to vote.
Of course in those days that was about the only tax their was. and it made sense that those who paid the taxes should be the ones (through their election of representatives) who decided how to spend it.
Elias
> no one's going to see a subway there. It's so far from anything.
But isn't the whole point of a subway to go from a place "so far from anything" to a place closer?
- Lyle Goldman
The same thing was true in those parts of Queens when the IND subway line was built that certain areas were sparsely populated.
#3 West End Jeff
The same with the end of the IRT in Queens. My mom recalls farms in Flushing in the 1950's, only perhaps a mile away from the Main Street terminus between Main St and Kissena Blvd where now high rise co-ops occupy that site.
The mafia of some sort or another (Russian, Italian, Japanese, you pick)!
According to a 1939 map I have, it was supposed to go to Little Neck Parkway.
*That* is where I would put it. Terminate the (Q) at 179 or FLB and take the (F) all the way out to 268th ST.
Elias
I'd have it extneding to 268th St, with the easternmost part of the station litterally abutting the Nassau County line.
Why stop there? Nassau is only Eastern Queens! Extend it all the way to the end of Hillside Av where it joins the Jericho Turnpike!
Nice try, but 100 years ago the boundary was set. It would be hard to cross that line.....
Well, if you are going to spend the money (this would have to be number 100 on the list) how about Belmont Park? It could be the new site for an arena for the Islanders and perhaps a bastetball team, with LIRR and subway access.
Where are you going to find the room to build this crap without ruining Belmont Park? The third and final challenge in racing's Triple Crown.
Nice try, but 100 years ago the boundary was set. It would be hard to cross that line.....
Well, I have suggested before that NYC should be 13 boroughs, not 5, made up of 15 current counties. Better still get the rest of NYS to secede as Albania or something...
Well, I have suggested before that NYC should be 13 boroughs
NO! I wouldn't have a problem shrinking the state, but if that were to happen, the 1898 mistake should be rectified.
IF 1898 had never happened, the subway would already be crossing boundaries, another boundary wouldn't mean anything.
"IF 1898 had never happened"
I wonder if the NYC Subway would have extended outside of Manhattan?
Why not? The subway in Boston extended to Cambridge and other suburbs almost immediately.
The first subway didn't go to Queens and the line to Brooklyn was only a token line (no pun intended) because otherwise Brooklyn would be royally pissed.
It was the BMT that gave Brooklyn and Queens transit. The IRT's 42nd Street line only existed on account of the Steinway Tunnel originally having been started by the NY&QC, and even today, Queens subway service is sparse, and Staten Island subway service is nonexistent.
This is unification?
SI needs North Shore and a subway down Richmond Ave. A tunnel between Brooklyn (cheaper, but more time) or Manhatten (5 miles of tunnel, more expensive, less time) is deperatly needed. Thoses express buses are causing me to have to take 3 baths a day (global warming). Also they aren't Disel-Electric Hybrids which is a crime. If a tunnel is too expensive, load the subway train (whole, with passengers) onto a ferry and ferry the train to the other side.
At least when you built a tunnel from SI to Manhattan, you will have a five mile stretch of NO NIMBYS!
The BART tunnels are like huge garden hoses lying on the floor of the bay. The were mad in sealed sections, sunk, and then attached, making a long tube. It was done to make them ore earthquake proof. Perhaps something like that can be done here too.
Elias
And connect it with LIRR. Like in the same building.
No, a better terminal would be a couple of miles west at Hillside Av & the East Williston LIRR station. Hillside Av is densely populated to there but further east to Jericho Tnpk it gets quite sparsly populated. And this way John could take the LIRR from Sea Cliff only to E. Williston to get the subway.
The subway can turn south and terminate at LIRR queens Village. Also the Q1 can be terminated early at Hillside instead of crawling to jamaica terminal.
It would be a great idea to extend the Hillside Avenue IND line to 268 St. Will they ever do it though?
#3 West End Jeff
If we want to speculate, perhaps the best route would be along Hillside as far as Springfield Blvd., then curving north to run along Union Turnpike, serving Glen Oaks and the Long Island Jewish Medical Center. The last station would be around Langdale Street at the city line.
Thatv would help me out--I'd be able to walk to the subway! Plus the line would end at the highest numbered street in NYC, 271st St.
:-) Andrew
I think that it would be a great idea to extend the IND Qieens Line to 271 St. in Queens at the Nassau border.
#3 West End Jeff
How much more crowded would the IND Queens line be if it went to the City line?
"How much more crowded would the IND Queens line be if it went to the City line?"
That of course is a question. How many take a bus to the subway.
Well.... Ask the question the other way around. "How many more people will work in Manhattan if we build this than if we don't"
Well what does the presence of a subway train have to do with where my job is? I might look for work that I can get to by train, but all of Manhattan qualifies for that.
More likely is it opens up new possibilities as to where I might look for housing, knowing that better transit is available.
This is what the NIMBYs fear, is that you will move in next to them. Not so much as the might not like the shade of your skin, but that bigger buildings will be built where now there are smaller buildings. That there will be more population density. And worst of all, that there will be more teens, cause they are the worst kind of people, always hanging out, and blaying lout music, doing drugs, and all of those discusting things that you did when you were that age!
Oh well.... put it all in the balance, and according to me, we are better off with more transit and less automobiles.
Elias
I wasn't refering to the line between 179 and City Line.
I was thinking of the line at Roosevelt Ave and Queens Plaza going toward NYC.
Will people waiting there find the trains to be more crowded?
At Queens Plaza, and even at Roosevelt, you might just well take the (R) or (V) as the express (Hell, the (F) doesn't even go to Queens Plaza anymore.
:-) Andrew
Correct. I understood that. But the people who live east of the line work in the city, and get there somehow. Do the take the bus to Main Street and get on there? If so, extending the line would have no effect on line ridership.
The second part, of course was, having the line extended *will* entice more people to move into the new service areas, and eventually will increase the ridership.
Fo all who would make fantasy lines: extenting existing lines doesn't cut it. If you builed a new line, you need to build a new crossing and city trunk line. Otherwise you will just be overloading existing services.
Elias
They could build a connector to the Archer Ave. Line and run some trains on the BMT Broadway Jamaica Line.
#3 West End Jeff
"They could build a connector to the Archer Ave. Line and run some trains on the BMT Broadway Jamaica Line."
They could. Nobody in their right mind would ride on it, but they *could* do it.
I am against all extensions of existing lines. If you need more lines in queens (and we do) then yes, they should come together at Jamaica Center, but from Jmaaica Center run a new line down Myrtle Avenue, through a new tunnel (on Pineapple Street) and then under Wall Street to a new mega-station on the West Side Highway between the WTC site and the WFC.
From there I'd work my way onto Fifth Avenue via Moore Street and West Broadway.
Ofcourse, I've already drawn that plan, you will find it here: Myrtle / Fifth Avenue Subway.
Elias
I like that idea.
The subway extension would remain within territory where NIMBY is not a serious issue yet (just the opposite - people in that area would favor it). It would shorten the ride for people coming in on MSBA express buses, and would increase ridership.
If we had the money to do it (the 188th Street station wouldn't be a big deal, since the line ends just past 182nd Street and so the MTA would only have to dig another 5 blocks or so to get the line that far), here are the challenges we'd face:
1) Ridership goes up, but so does crowding at stations like Van Wyck Blvd, Union Turnpike and Forest Hills because the trains would arrive with more people on them.
2) Increasing frequency of trains would be a bit complicated due to limited capacity on the express track. A minor improvement could be done, however, with signal and procedural improvements. It is important not to compromise safety.
3) Longer route = more rolling stock needed. A lengthened F route would need more subway cars.
Hey the R-160 is comming no equipment shortage.
I think it should go even further, to Springfield/Hillside.
Little Neck Parkway is where it was planned to go.
I happened to look over a New York Subway map the other day and I was amazed by the fact that the IND comes very close to duplicating the BMT. There are so many stations in Brooklyn where the two intercede that is amazes me why Mayor Hylan, who had a grudge against the BMT, would go so far as to build a complete new subway system with apparently only that grudge in mind. At least the bum could have built his system where it was really needed. It is not as bad in Manhattan, especially around 8th Avenue. But the Brooklyn comparison is utterly ridiculous. As far as Moses in concerned, to me he is the sworn enemy of the New York rapid transit system. Put everyone in a car, so to speak. The result is the LIE, the biggest parking lot outside of Los Angeles. We out here in California know all about clogged freeways ( parkways to you). Why a guy like that would want to do something like he did is beyond me. He must have been a suburbanite at heart, but I now know from other railfanners that Nassau county is also clogged with highway traffic. I'm sure Nassauites would love to have a RT system to relieve the crowded highways. These two guys are nothing but crums in my book.
The entire IND, with the exception of the Queens Boulevard line was built to replace existing BMT and IRT lines. The Sixth and Eighth Avenue subways replaced the Sixth and Ninth Avenue els, The Fulton Subway replaced the Fulton El.
Hylan did nothing but put the private companies out of business. In the forty years they existed, hundreds of miles of rapid transit were built. In the 60 years since they've ceased to exist, only a few miles have been built, but many more have been removed. The New York City subway is the only subway smaller now than in 1940. All of that can be attributed to the Menace to Society known as Hylan.
IMHO JUST FOLLOW THE MONEY! Let us not forget the "quiet money" under the table bucks and "BIG" Political Contributions that have been used in the last 50 years by the automobile industry and major oil companies to secure their position in the appropriation of funds. These "arrangements", allowed "Special Interests" to have Freeways, Interstate Highways, Bridges and Tunnels etc. constructed, to favor the private passanger automobile, in lieu of public transportation. Gasoine consumption by the automobile has made the oil industry rich but at the same time it has also polluted the land and it's citizens.
Don't get me wrong...we must all make a living and co-exist together but a disproportionate amount of lobbying and kissing up by special interests had impared and impeded the amount of funding that should have been earmarked for the "Public" in public transportation.
The whole story is told in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"
I have to agree. WOuldn't it be great if they used the money they spent on some of the lines such as the Fulton Subway and the Concourse on lines that were built basically to replace the Fulton el and the Jerome el, on lines through areas where there was no subay access, such as some of the 2nd system plans or through the center like the Metropolitan Ave corridor, or lots of arfeas in Queens or Brookln where there is no access. The Fulton subway and the Concourse are great lines, but all they did is replicate routes they already had.
The Queens line was the only line that really went into new territory. The 6th and 8th Ave lines were also necessary lines, even though they replicated the 6th AVe el and the 9th Avenue el, but (please don't start throwing rocks) the removal of the els really improved the quality of life in Manhattan. The removal of the els (running for cover again) was really necessary for Manhattan to become the great place it is.
However, either the third or second Ave el should have remained until a replacement subway was built.
"Brooklyn", I missed the Y while typing......
There still are a few elevated lines in Manhattan.
Well, you know what I mean.....trunk lines. The trunk lines are gone. I don't mean the small pieces here and there.
........or the High line for that matter......
It feels good to be back, doesn’t it? I can’t recall the last time I posted to this message board.
As for the subject at hand, I think Robert Moses was a product of his time, instead of the other way around. There are undoubtedly many politicians who have the same opinions as Moses, but none have come to wield nearly as much power as he did. Robert Moses: rubblemaker extraordinaire, destroyer of neighbourhoods, enemy of the poor.
When Moses came to full form, America was deeply locked in a cold war with the Red Menace. If you look at how he engineered his opinion into projects, you will see that individuality is consistently favored over communality.
Moses was in favor of suburbs and the automobile, and opposed to urbanism, public transportation, and the poor.
The automobile is the most shining example of American individual freedom. You can go where you want, when you want, and no one is going to stop you. You need not rely on others, and you need not associate with perceived undesirables. Have you ever stood in traffic these days? Almost every car has one occupant, hermetically sealed from the outside world. On the other hand, public transportation is the great equalizer. It is really no wonder that a despicable man such as Moses would have a visceral hatred for it. Rich and poor ride alike (meaning the rich have to ride with the supposed undesirables), and you are at the mercy of the transportation means. You can’t really go where you want, whenever you want. What’s worse, it isn’t operated by a free market company, but a government agency. Never mind the responsibility to the greater good of society that comes from using public transportation.
There are a large number of parallels between the suburbs and the automobile, both of which were coincidentally on the rise at the time of Moses. Like the automobile, the suburban dwelling permits individual freedom. You own your own property, you can do with it what you wish, and you can build a white picket fence to keep the poor out. On the other hand, an urban neighborhood such as mine on Second Avenue sees all sorts of people from all walks of life. You have neighbors, and you must be mindful of them. If you aren’t convinced, just look at how the Moses era lashed out at urbanism through the creation of superblocks. New York City projects are set on superblocks, skewed 45 degrees from the surrounding urban fabric of street grid, with huge setbacks. The monolithic red brick buildings rise above the surrounding buildings, isolating themselves from the neighbourhood.
So what are we left with now? The ruin of a selfish, failed individualistic philosophy.
MATT-2AV
What’s worse, it isn’t operated by a free market company, but a government agency.
In public transit's heyday, it was operated by free market companies. The government only started taking over when they realized the mistakes they made in unfairly subsidizing the competition.
Toll all roads, eliminate all transit subsidies. When faced with the TRUE cost of one mode over another, transit will win HANDS DOWN, and you won't need government ownership of anything, the government can go back to providing for the common defense and ensuring domestic tranquility.
You're right, many of the original transit lines were operated by private companies. The IRT and BMT were, but the IND never was, hence the name.
However, if I am not mistaken, by the hay day of Moses, all of the local lines had been taken over by one (pinko) government agency or another. And this was after many of those companies competed for the most profitable routes, leading to redundant transit in some regions and other regions without any transit at all.
Who should operate transit? The government or Enron? Hmmm.... that's a tough one, but with all due respect, I'll have to go with the government.
If Enron operated the MTA (or just the 'E' train), you would pay your fare, the train would tell you its going one place, go somewhere else, and then kick you off without getting any of your money back. At least the MTA gives you a free transfer ticket when that happens!
MATT-2AV
If nothing else the IRT and BMT were in business to ru railroads and do it profitably until they no longer could.Just like Montana Power provided electricity here, or adjust it for your locale.What kind of bull is this deregulated market [yeah the consumer was going to save money by competition] when a broker [such as Enron if I understand the situation, maybe I do not] gets in the middle for their cut. This is modern corporate America, and even I as a longtime conservative, capatalist, free market type think it STINKS. Whether you pay your fare to ride the train or bus at what makes business run or get a susidized ride and pay in your taxes too is another story. But in our world that's the only way it seems to work as comparing now to waning years of corporate operation proves. TheNY Central according to a book I read paid 22 cents of every revenue dollar to Westchester County in taxes; the IRT paid taxes until they got in trouble. I don't thinkany public agencies pay taxes...or do they? Somebody makes it up..you and me.
Who should operate transit? The government or Enron? Hmmm.... that's a tough one, but with all due respect, I'll have to go with the government.
You don't even try to conceal your biases against private enterprise and for the government.
For every bad thing about Capitalism, there are ten bad things about socialism. You choose to use the worst example of capitalism and no examples at all of bad government to prove your point.
Yes, I'd rather go with the government to run transit instead of Enron, but I'd rather have your average corporation run transit instead of your average government agency.
There is a legend that John Hylan was an engineer who was fired when he tried to run his supervisor over with his train. I think that is pretty much folklore. John Hylan was employed as an engineer by the BRT while attending Law School. When he was fired, he developed a hatred for the BRT management. His support was galvanized after the Malbourne Street disaster.
John Hylan clearly built the IND to directly compete with the slower and clumsier BRT and to a lesser extent, the IRT. However, this was only 1/2 of his campaign against the two older systems. Key to his war against them was his maniacle support for the 5 cent fare. While the city could underwrite the cost of operation on the IND, the 5 cent fare drove the BRT and IRT into surrender.
As for the comparrison between John Hylan and Robert Moses, I think they were less similar than you might think. Robert Moses hated mass transit and did everything he could to disrupt its spread. He did it by building a massive highway and bridge infrastructure to make the automobile more convenient and desirable than mass transit.
On the other hand, John Hylan did not hate mass transit. He hated the private management of some of the mass transit agencies - and not the system itself. He built a mass transit system that was second to none and devised a strategy that ultimately ridded the city of private transit ownership. The city was then able to eliminate the less desirable aspects of the system, making it stronger. I think John Hylan was extremely cynical in his 'use' of mass transit for his own personal agenda. His supporters also learned this about him and they withdrew their support, denying him another term as mayor. But while Robert moses had no use for mass transit, John Hylan had too many uses for it.
To add to your well-taken point, Hylan's thing was also centered around popular sentiment of the time, the almost total corruption on a historic basis of Tammany hall by the "traction interests" ... he eidn't just dislike the BRT and IRT, he also had a SERIOUS dislike for the trolley operators as well. If you peruse the various stories of corruption in city hall, the traction interests were at the center of many scandals and obstruction of many other projects.
If anything, Hylan took advantage of popular sentiment at the time with his own agenda but he was able to get his own agenda through because of the general unpopularity of all the "traction interests." The five cent fare was only a political means of beating them up. As much as people may despise Hylan in retrospect, he did break the manacles of their political control over the city as a whole.
If it had not been for the war, chances are all the grand schemes (including a second avenue subway) might have been realized. Maybe.
Right Dude, I get you. But in one way they were alike. They didn't give a damn about the greater good. If Hylan was so damn sure his system was the end all, he could have built it first in areas where there was no BMT like he did do on 8th Avenue, but soon after spread it out so as to run smack into the BMT lines in Brooklyn and Queens. If his system turned out to be effective he could then have tried to expand it into areas where the so called "inefficient" BRT and IRT were falling down on the job. No, his sole intention was to bring down the BMT and maybe the IRT with it. As for Moses, how could a gluy be so short sighted. There were many people in New York who couldn't afford a car and depended on mass transit. Since New York City is both big and compact at the same time mass transit fit the city like a glove. This is not to say that selfish interests don't crop up in other fields but we're talking about 8-million people who were effected by what these two jerks were up to. Even thought Los Angeles is more spread out than New York don't think for a minute that mass transit of at least light rail wouldn't go a long way to relieving the unbelievable congestion on our freeways. But back in the early 50's we had our own Moses out here in the form of Firestone Rubber, Union Oil, and US Steel to put everyone in a car and tear up the Red Line System that was one of the greatest transportation systems in the country. When I moved out here in late 1954, they were in the process of tearing up the rest of that system and with it the advent of mass congestion. Hope to see you in October.
Moses wanted to give the 8 million people of NYC a way to get out to "the country". Hence his parkway system ... mass transit would never be built to bring people out to the country on the same scale. (Granted, there's the Coney Island / Stillwell Ave station, but that's where the "undesireables" went to spend their summers .... and Moses didn't want these undesireables on his beaches. Caro put it pretty well - he loved the public but not the people.)
--Mark
If those are Moses' sentiments, then I am right and he was a dirtbag. As for Coney Island, I don't look at it as a place for undesireables. The mindset is why not much has been done to make Coney Island a showplace once again. Somdeday I would like to see the place refurbished because to me it means fun. pleasant memories of youth and, of course, the Cyclone. I still love the place even if I am 3,000 miles away and almost 48 years removed from being a New Yorker.
I just encountered a situation that presents it self from time to time. I have the 30 unlimted Metrocard. I had to work on the East side at 59 Street, I needed to run a short errand to 10 Ave and E 60 Street. W train to cross town bus, no problem. But as I said, it was a short errand. As I tried to board the cross town bus the other way, I got the INVALID CARD message.
I fully appreciate the need to have the 18 minute blackout on the card. But as it is an unlimited card, I should be able to make a round trip. Can't they tell which way the bus is heading? If tried to on a westbound bus again, I could see why my card would be rejected. But why did will an eastbound bus not take my card?
You say that you took the W train then a westbound bus. You had no problems. How long was it from the time you swiped your card for the westbound bus until you tried to use it for the eastbound bus coming back?
That is the problem, I tried to return on the eastbound bus LESS than 18 minutes after I boarded the Westbound bus. There should be a way to block the card from being used within the 18 minute window in the same direction, yet allow a return trip (allow the card to be used on the same route but in the opposite direction.
"LESS than 18 minutes."
That is your problem. Once an unlimited card has been used, you have to wait 18 minutes before you can use it again.
You have to wait before it can be used again.
I understand the 18 minute blackout. BUT the purpose of the blackout is to prevent a person from passing the card back to other people and in effect cheating the system of a fare. I purchase an unlimited card so I can travel around the city as I please. I need to make a short trip across W 57 street. I go 3 avenues, stop in a store, make a purchase and wish to return to my place of business. I am not cheating the system of a fare by attempting to take the 57 or 31 bus back from where I came. My point is that the fare software should differenciate between a 57 or 31 bus traveling west and the same line traveling east. Let's say I didn't have to use a bus. My trip was from my office at 59 and Lex to say 57 and 8th Broadway. I could use my card to the 59/Lex station, travel on the W train, leave the system, make a purcahse and immediately re-enter the system. I should be able to do the same when a bus is involved.
Based on the number of times I see buses with the wrong destination shown on the signs, I'm not sure I believe that the MTA has a very reliable way of detecting which way a bus is going on its route.
David,
In reference to the buses with the incorrect destination signs,
my wife is a subscriber to the "Mail 'n Ride" Metro Card for persons
with disabilities. What fun it is reading her monthly statements.
Some examples, "Out Of Service", fare collected; "Next Bus Please"
[will admit, the regulars see her and stop, even when their running
light to fill service gaps]; Opposing direction of which she is
traveling; Jackie Gleason CNG Depot, that's OK, the bus is from that
depot. Several years ago, they read Walnut Depot Bronx on a Brooklyn
Bus Route, she boarded in Queens. [B61 Long Island City to Red Hook].
These boards should be interesting reading, when "Mail 'n Ride" comes
available to all riders. >G<
:-) Sparky
My favorite destination sign reading is "Not In Service" alternating with "Express". =)
Mine is "NOT IN SERVICE" followed by "WELCOME ABOARD!"
More appropriate would be NOT IN SERVICE and LIMITED STOPS.
An express ride to nowhere... MTA, going no way!
The destinations, I mentioned are what has appeared on the Mrs.
Mail-Ride statements. The cutest that comes to mind on an actual
sighting recently is a B-61 in Brooklyn with a S-61 destination
on an RTS.
:-) Sparky
I have a MetroCard for persons with disabilities. And I do use if Verry Often,I tend to just use the Pay Per Ride since I use the Express Bus ALOT doing the off peak hours and I often transfer from a Express Bus to a Local Bus(Exemple, X51 to M16)
I've traveled with people with those cards and we once took a Madison Avenue bus to the M86 to the M7 because we were running an errand before going somewhere else. The M7 driver let my companion on without any questions when the INVALID CARD message came up.
Whenever you get a paper transfer from a bus it tends to have the direction printed on it, and 9/10 times it's correct.
Well the vendor is doing some changes to the software as we speak, maybe it has to do with you situation, but then maybe not.
I heard at least one change has to do with "transfers".
Mr rt__:^)
Once a card has been used, you have to wait 18 minutes before you can use it again. The rule of thumb when one uses an unlimited card.
>>> I could use my card to the 59/Lex station, travel on the W train, leave the system, make a purcahse and immediately re-enter the system. I should be able to do the same when a bus is involved. <<<
You also should be able to get off the bus one stop from where you got on to buy a newspaper and get on the next bus going in the same direction. The problem seems to be in how the system identifies the location of the fare box or turnstile. With turnstiles it is easy since they are stationary and can be associated with one physical location, but it appears they identify the bus fare box only by the line it is on, not the direction or the specific bus. Therefore the 18 minute restriction is by line. For most flexibility, it really should be by the individual bus.
Tom
Not true. The card may be used again within 18 minutes, just not on the same bus route or at the same subway station.
Piggo: Did you explain the situation to the driver? I once did (actually, I had transferred from an M104 to another M104 in the same direction, IIRC because the a/c wasn't working well on the first one or something like that) and he let me board. The point of the lockout is to prevent multiple people from riding on the same unlimited card at the same time; if you're traveling alone, it's a pretty safe bet that the earlier dip was yours as well.
David,
Yes, I have had zero luck with the B/O's on the 57 Street run. You make a good point, if a person is traveling alone, the first dip most likely is yours. But I have tried to explain the situation and I have gotten no sympathy. I make this trip 2 or 3 times a week, so I am pretty expienced with it now. I often make a point to stop and eat lunch before getting back on the bus, or more often I just walk one way. But if I am in hurry, I get agrivated, like today!
I always carry a value card with 3 to 1.50 on it just in case my unlimited has a problem. Hay I can carry that spare card for a year & if I never use it I can ask the Station Agent to move the money to another card & start the clock again.
Mr rt__:^)
>> I always carry a value card with 3 to 1.50 on it just in case my unlimited has a problem. Hay I can carry that spare card for a year & if I never use it I can ask the Station Agent to move the money to another card & start the clock again. <<
I always do that anyway even though I don't usually use unlimited cards. Right now I think I have three $1.50 cards in my pocket just in case. If something goes wrong, I'm not about to start a fight with the driver or turnstile, especially if I'm in a hurry. I don't actually buy $1.50 cards either-- I just put a $15 card aside when it gets to $1.50. It's easier to call the MTA and have it mail me a $1.50 card when an error occurs (another way I get $1.50 cards).
The MetroCard system may be too intelligent for this, but what happens if you try to make the card forget about your earlier M57 ride by swiping somewhere else in the interim? (Wait for an M11, get on, dip, and get right back off.)
I think that would work. And I do actually go up 10th a few blocks. The only problem is that the M11 is not the most frequent bus in the system, by the time an M11 came, I most likely would be clear of the 18 window. There is definately something in the Metrocard system that allows that to work. I remember a couple of years ago, the "swippers" I would see around the Port Authority bus terminal would pass a card (or two) through the fare box of an M42 and not get on. I once asked a guy what was he doing, he repied that he was "clearing the card" so he could get more swips.
With a pay-per-ride card, you can only use it up to 4 times at a time. After that it has 4 transfers on it. It can not be used again at the subway until either the transfers expire (in 2 hours). Or the transfers are used on the bus. Except for Lexington 59 and 63 Streets and Court and Court House Squares, there are no subway-tosubway transfers.
Huh?
I can use a pay-per-ride card for 1 to 4 fares in a subway station, go to another station in 2 minutes, and use it again. I get charged again, but I can use it.
Here's my question:
Let's say you do just that: four swipes at one station followed by one swipe at a different station.
Then you dip the same card on a bus. Does it beep four times or just once? That is, does your single transfer cancel out the four transfers you had earned a few minutes earlier?
I'm not willing to spend the money to try it, but I'm sure it beeps only once.
I've only used the multi-transfer feature once, and I didn't need it. After paying both of our fares on my card, I escorted an out-of-towner to where she was staying (I guarantee she would have gotten lost otherwise, and this was in Morningside Heights around midnight). Then I got on the bus to take me home. Nobody else got on with me, so nobody got to claim that free ride.
If you use a $15 (Pay-per-ride) card and swipe it once at 4 stations in 18 minutes,you will have used 4 rides and have 4 transfers on the card. Go to a bus and dip it once in the farebox, you will use all 4 transfers at once. And it will only beep once. The message would say all 4 transfers were used.
The only time I used the multi-transfer (see my other post), the bus farebox beeped twice.
Because it's designed for four folks to travel on one value card (they would be entitled to four transfers).
Mr rt__:^)
With a pay-per-ride card you can do that.
You can't do that with an unlimited card.
Remember there are 2 kinds of metrocards!
I tested out the theory before. The card apparently stores the last TWO uses. In order to erase the M57 ride, you have to use the card in two different places, and BOTH stored locations have the eighteen minute rule apply.
A pay-per-ride card (eg $3 or $15 card) can be used again during the 18 minutes period. But with an unlimited card, you have to 18 minutes before you can use it again.
Nope. You are definitely wrong. The 18-minute lockout applies only at the same station or on the same bus route. See the official Conditions of Use. I have used Fun Passes twice in 18 minutes on many occasions and they've only been rejected when I inadvertently try to break this rule.
To confirm what you say, I tried an experiment once down on Wall St where it's a 1 minute walk from the J/M/Z to the 1/2. I used it twice within 2 minutes (in different stations).
You should have given it a real workout: 1/2 Wall to J/M/Z Broad to 4/5 Wall to N/R Rector to E WTC -- all within 18 minutes.
With unlimited cards you have to wait 18 minutes before it can be used again. Simple as that.
With pay-per-ride cards, The cards that are first bought for $3 or $15 You can use it 4 times in the 18 minute period. However you would not be able to use it again a 5th time. The turnstile would say EXCEDED TRANSFER LIMIT. The card will not work again at a turnstile until either the 4 transfers expire after 2 hours or you use the card to get on a bus.
Call your cards by their proper names.
Once again, that is incorrect. The 18-minute lockout only applies at the same subway station or on the same bus route. An unlimited card can be used immediately at any other subway station or on any other bus route.
I gave a citation from the MTA web site. I reported my own experiences. I'm afraid that you are misinformed.
I work for TA. I've worked in the booth daily for 8 years (22 years over all) explaining to customers what a MetroCard does and doesn't do. I've explaned to countless people that when a card says JUST USED at a turnstile, it was used and they have to wait 18 minutes before using it again. Sometimes after I have a customer just used an unlimited fare at a turnstile but still can't get in, I tell them to try the card again at the agent operated T/S. When they use their card at that T/S, I hit the button in the booth. They are allowed to go in and they think the card worked. You might have been one of my customers.
I can confirm that I have also used a Fun Pass twice within 2 minutes AT DIFFERENT stations. I used it at Broad St JMZ and immediately then at Wall St 1/2.
I did not need assistance from anyone.
You sure it was a fun pass and not a pay-per-ride card?
I've performed similar experiments and I'm 100% sure they were with Fun Passes.
I'll be Fun Passing again on Monday. If I get a chance, I'll test it again and report the details of the experiment.
But the MTA web site is crystal clear on the matter: there is an 18-minute lockout at the same subway station or on the same bus route. That's it.
I'm a retired employee and I believe the same 18 minute lockout applies to me also. If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't apply to active employees in the performance of their duties. Can you imagine RCIs or MMIs attempting to report to an emergency and having to wait the 18 minutes to respond?
Yours truly,
Bob
If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't apply to active employees in the performance of their duties.
It does, only it's shorter.
And I can't see how an employee Metrocard could affect an emergency. An employee who has to serve an emergency either has a set of keys or is with someone who does.
You're probably right. I've gotten too wraped up in this high-tech world of ours that I've forgotten about the "old days" not too long ago when all you did was show your pass to the Railroad Clerk and either walk through or get buzzed through the exit gate. Thanks for shaking the cobwebs out of my head.
Bob
Once, a Transit Police officer overheard me telling the person I was traveling with that we should just exit the subway at 3rd Avenue on the 2 and 5 and cross over on the street instead of riding the train further into the Bronx in the interest of time. As soon as we passed through the turnstile, the police officer told us we could go to Intervale and cross over free and then swiped us both in on his card without any delay. While it might have cost 3 dollars to cross over at 3rd, we wouldn't have had to wait for an outbound train and then who knows how long for an inbound one.
"You sure it was a fun pass and not a pay-per-ride card?"
Absolutely 100% sure. It was a deliberate experiment in response to the last time this came up on this board. I knew it was at no cost to me because I already had a need for three legitimate rides that day.
What we have here is a failure to communicate. David is stating the fact that the 18 minute lock out is limited to the same station or bus route. As a station agent, you are dealing with people who may have inadvertaly swiped the card, or got a "Swipe again at this turnstyle" and move to a different turnstyle. In effect you are both correct. Being in one station, you will see the 18 minute lock out. But if you move from one station to a different station, the same unlimited card can work WITHIN the 18 minute window.
When Metrocard came out, the 18 minute lock out applied to ALL stations. So at one time it was correct that the unlimited could only be used every 18 minutes, ANYWHERE on the system.
I tested it out today. I used a brand new Fun Pass at 86th Street on the 1/2 at 9:26am. Then at about 9:40am, or perhaps a few minutes earlier, I used the same Fun Pass on an M72.
This morning a NJT Train has Derailed and has effected service in both Directions. Does anyone have more on the story?
Yeah, check out this posting.
Mark
Well I was going to take a Midtown train to Summit but all trains out of Penn on the Morris and Essex were canceled. Taking PATH to Newark for the 70 bus I noticed the train, the loco was half off the tracks, it looked like a real mess but it could've been worse.
LOL, your Big NJT trip got canceled? Bummer.
Well I still got to go to the mall, although by bus and PATH.
Well I'm gonna try again with NJT trains, though I don't wanna go back to Short Hills, maybe I'll go to Livingston mall.
Also their trains charge peak fare in BOTH directions in AM and PM rush unlike the MTA which is only in peak direction only, so it is way more expensive than the bus.
You can get to Garden State Plaza by train too - take the Main/Bergen County line from Hoboken to Ridgewood, then you'll have to walk a couple blocks to Van Neste Square and get the #175 bus to the Plaza.
It is actually only a block from the train station to Van Neste Square. You can get the 175 bus at the Glen Rock Boro Hall (Bergen Line) Station also. It might save a few minutes. But considering where QTrainDash7 is coming from, it is faster for him to use the route he uses now, buses from GWBT. I took the 175 from end to end, it becomes a tiresome trip after awhile, especially after dark.
This Map shows the Flatbush Avenue car (not a trolley yet) turning away at Kings Highway and running along such to Coney Island Avenue (or beyond). Was this ever the case or is this another situation of a planned line? Also what about the trolley line shown along Clove Road (for those of you who know what that is)?
Saw #1431-32-33-34-1438 on the middle track at Fordham Rd Station with brand new trucks also saw R142A #7661-7665 at Pelham Parkway Station testing on the middle track & i rode #2321-2325/#2311-2316 on #2 line today.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Amtrak Chief: Rail Line Will Fold Without Loan
Reuters
WASHINGTON (June 6) - Amtrak's President, David Gunn, warns the financially ailing passenger rail service will have to shut down next month unless it gets a $200 million loan in the next three weeks, the Washington Post reported Thursday.
"If we can't borrow $200 million, we can't make it through this fiscal year," Gunn said. "We must have a loan in place by the end of this month."
Gunn was quoted as saying that any shutdown would involve the whole system -- not just the long-distance trains but "all of them."
Gunn said in an interview he was optimistic that he could negotiate a short-term loan, using as collateral $200 million from the expected federal appropriation at the beginning of the fiscal year Oct. 1.
The United States' only city-to-city passenger rail service operator, Amtrak, is awash in debt and lost $1.1 billion in 2001.
Gunn also said he plans to propose a massive reorganization of Amtrak management to the Amtrak board of directors on Thursday, the Post reported.
Gunn told the paper his new organizational plan will eliminate separate business units set up in Philadelphia to run the Northeast Corridor, in Chicago to run long-distance trains, and in Oakland, Calif., to run service on the West Coast.
He added that he would propose reducing the number of "vice president" titles in the company from 84 to about 20.
06/06/02 00:32 ET
I've got an idea. How about lowering the fares so it's cheaper than the airlines. It costs almost as much to take the train than the plane.
As long as the train fare is what it is and the ridership is staying steady -- or better yet, GROWING -- there is NO need to lower the fares.
Economics -- supply and demand.
If Amtrak stops running what happens to Penn station? Will it close? Man that would be an even bigger nightmere for LIRR riders.
How about lowering the fares so it's cheaper than the airlines.
How about lowering the wages of the employees, the prices it pays for fuel and electricity, not to mention the prices of rails and the locos and coaches?
Employ payroll is the biggest cost to any company, so lower pay could save money, but no existing employee would allow it for themselves.
And exactly how would you lower energy, rail and loco prices? That makes absolutely no sense. I can't go to a store and make them lower the price of an item for me, what makes you think Amtrak can do it? Competition among rail equipment manufacturers probably has already made them have reasonable prices on their products.
And exactly how would you lower energy, rail and loco prices? That makes absolutely no sense.
I don't think KMA was being serious, he was only pointing out the stupidity of Redbirds Rule with regard to lowering Amtrak rates.
Yes, but a lower fare would attract more ridership. Never mind airlines for a moment. To get from NY to Albany, for example, is at least $12 more expensive each way by Amtrak then by Adirondak Trailways. There is only a half hour time difference, and the bus terminal is much closer to where people actually want to go than the train station.
The annoying thing is, about 5 years ago the fares for bus and train were much closer together.
As one who's routinely done both, that $12.00 extra is immeasurably WORTH it for the sanity and lack of "bus smell" upon arrival on either end. Walking around on the train, hitting the cafe car and having a brewski in peace is something you just can't do on the bus. And no playing "guess the psychosis of your seatmate" either. Sure I wish the train was cheaper, but I'll pay whatever the price to avoid the bus.
And the trainride is nice too, even if it isn't in the cab like it used to be. :)
Yes, but a lower fare would attract more ridership.
How would that help Amtrak if they can't be solvent at their current fares?
HEY! It worked for NASDAQ, didn't it? :)
10 people buying $30 tickets is a bit more than 6 people buying $42 tickets, or 1 person buying a $100 ticket. I know I just made the numbers up with no factual basis but I had to illustrate that there are a lot of people out there who are so cheap they will sacrifice comfort for cash. Amtrak is not like the subway, there are other ways of getting around and people tend to use them when the price difference becomes too great. The price has steadily increased over the past few years, less than a decade ago it was about $15 from Poughkeepsie to NYP, now it's $28 off peak!
Also, more people on the trains means more people going to the cafe car, and at $2.75 for a hot dog you know they're making a decent chunk of revenue there!
It costs money for AmTrak to handle all of these people. If the revenues don't exceed the expenditures, it doesn't matter what you charge.
IMO, I think it is redundant for Mr. Gunn to threaten a systemwide closure of Amtrak within the next month during a Congressional election year. If a vital link that takes people to areas of the country that are either too cumbersome or impossible for people to get to by air (or even road) is lost, it can be assured that heads are going to roll in Washington. Then again, he is probably trying to regain their attention admist all the discussion regarding the airline situation (and the fact that airports have a realistic chance of having the shut their doors if they don't meet new security measures).
Judging from the news articles at hand, Amtrak is in a WOS right now, and it's state confirms people's suspicions that a reorganization is in order. I mean, how is it that key rail operation offices are dispersed thousands of miles apart, when the trend among transit systems today is to consolidate operations so that orders and the like can be filtered down within minutes?
Realistically, long distance service cannot compete on a daily basis outside of tourist travel (especially sans high-speed service). Congress has to bite the bullet and start getting service between major city centers 1000 miles apart and less (Chicago-DC, NY-Jacksonville, etc.) to a point where it should not take more than 18 hrs to travel in between. The Acela idea is good (albeit expensive), and must be expanded among heavily traveled corridors. It shouldn't be subject to beureaucratic bickering, especially of the type of debate raging over the rail-security bill still in committee.
I just read a story in Yahoo that all Amtrak service may end next month if the company doesn't receive some money fast.
Here is the URL to the story
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=3&u=/ap/20020606/ap_on_bi_ge/amtrak
Any comments?
Not to worried out here in California, as the state will keep our intercity trains running -- they already pay most, if not all, of the costs of doing so.
Not to [sic] worried out here in California, as the state will keep our intercity trains running -- they already pay most, if not all, of the costs of doing so.
You never know.
Who owns the equipment and the real estate? Amtrak or the State?
Whose payroll covers the operating personnel? Amtrak or the State?
If both the equipment and the payroll belong to Amtrak, continued service could depend on Amtrak's overall financial condition. The State couldn't simply take the equipment and real estate and press-gang the workers so that it could run the trains itself. Depending on Amtrak's situation, it might be unable to operate even with a 100% subsidy from the State.
I see Gunn plans to hold the Northeast Corridor hostage to get some money for the system as a whole. Doesn't he understand that the only service most of Congress wants to provide in the Northeast is IRS audits?
If it DOES come to that, I sure hope they do their layups and lockouts on the main line. Maybe tear up some rail too just to be sure. Then perhaps we'd see CSX turn tail and work FOR Amtrak funding instead of against it (CSX's motto, "get those pesky Amtraks out of the way, they're holding up our intermodals") ...
Actually, tables are turning. CSX has not been dispatching LSL satisfactorily, but in many aspects CSX is far more positive about pax rail than they had been for a while. I just got back from a Lake Shore Ltd trip.
I think Gunn is doing the right thing. These politicians do not understand logical arguments, they seem to understand only threats. No wonder terrorists are so successful. If he gets some $ for the system as a whole, go Gunn.
Yes, some of the NEC needs to get torn up. Then maybe these politicians will take pax rail seriously once they see the disruption it causes. Whether it is worth the dent in Amtrak's market share, I don't know.
I am not sure about his idea that tearing up the business sectors would solve the problem. After all, a railroad is not a transit and not all market segments are the same. However, having policy decisions made at the head office is probably a good thing.
Nobody to blame but the feds. Despie its sickly early years and some of the hangovers that remain, especially chronically and excessively late trains in some areas ridership held up and in some cases increased. I remember the lateness in the early days plus hot cars in summer, cold or stifling in winter, etc too well. Under those conditions you'd think it would have died by 1974-75 or so. Now those of us with the evil habit of smoking have pretty much been ruled if on nearly all trains, that doesn't change things. The summary is there is a demand for the service, people will pay good money to ride trains, it is a nice way to travel, like nearly all passenger service it loses money, it creates a lot of employment....yet it gets crumbs. Just compare last September's handouts...what the airlines got outright and what Amtrak hasn't been able to get...despite the fact that it was there when people couldn't or wouldn't fly.I think Greyhound is profitable but ride one long distance and you'll know why. Talk about sardine cans.
Well no matter what happens to the rest of the Amtrak trains, the busy corridors (NEC/Empire Corridor, Chicago-Detroit, L.A.-San Diego) will live on. NEC was the only true money maker for Amtrak, and ridership went up on the Chicago-Detriot and L.A.-San Diego lines, so it's safe to say those will stick around as their own continuing operating entities.
If Amtrak really runs out of money, there could be short term disruptions (months?) until they reorganize into a smaller entity that only runs the routes that are profitable, break-even, or sufficiently subsidized by the states.
Pass imediate eminent domain on NYP and keep the city running.
AMTK would likely pull all of its assets (locomotives and cars) to Philidelphia and Chicago where they would be impounded by creditors.
Shame, cause it is such a piddling little sum that they need to be fully subsidized.
Elias
Yes . piddling indeed. Especially when you consider all the stupid causes that billions of dollars have been poured into and created employment/ or a real economic future for few.I don't mean to step on anybod's toes..but a lot of idiotic social programs, studies that reverse opinions ten years later, and transplanting WOLVES to livestock and game country where the only people who want them are a handful doing their silly studies. They had a happy home and future where they wre taken from. Think of all the real employment created by Amtrak plus how many people do benefit from its services, even if a small minority compared to other modes.Sounds like a small price to pay in subsidies.
Well no matter what happens to the rest of the Amtrak trains, the busy corridors (NEC/Empire Corridor, Chicago-Detroit, L.A.-San Diego) will live on. NEC was the only true money maker for Amtrak, and ridership went up on the Chicago-Detriot and L.A.-San Diego lines, so it's safe to say those will stick around as their own continuing operating entities.
I heard from www.trains.com (a very reliable news source for railroads across the continent) that if AMTRAK stops service, the NEC won't be spared.
What will happen then?
The funny thing is, if AMTRAK has $1.2 billion and $205 million on LOANS for Congress, when will it all get paid back? Will AMTRAK be on loans all its life?
in a word YES. passenger transport is labor and capital intensive. If you think it is profitable when fully acconted, please invest in Eastern, Pan Am, Braniff or for that matter, United or US Air. I just think ATK should invite the Entire Congress on one of the Junkets like the regular trips to the Greenbrier but let CSX think its a 'regular' ATK train. After the delays for coal drags, some of them might get a clue. Version two shut down ONLY the NEC, and CANCEL all passes for politicians who have ever voted against ATK funding.
Anyone who claims NEC makes money doesn't understand capital expenses.
NEC makes money, but only on paper. Do any of you have any idea how much money PRR invested in the right of way, how much money was poured into the system in the late 1970s to early 1980s with the massive upgrade programme? Acela's BOS-NYP run will make decent $ in the next 20 years, but that's because we just poured $3bn into that route. If we pour $3bn into CHI-DTW, or even CHI-STL, we can make that sort of money. But somenoe has to pay for the capital.
I'd love to be pulling a train CHI-STL. I might even call it "The Spirit of Saint Louis".
AEM7
Couldn't agree more actually ... and yeah, the LSL is the local run through here (I'm west of Smallbany) ... the thing about ripping/blocking the track was more of a personal thing about how "host railroads" behave and companies like CSX that screw Amtrak repeatedly coast to coast USE the NEC as their own main line for a portion of the east coast. Since the host railroad is Amtrak there, shutting it down if Amtrak does would be the slap across the face with a wet herring that CSX needs to realize that the saw cuts both ways. They sure don't seem to get the point in their long history of "get Amtrak out of the way of the UPS train."
But I was just gassing off. :)
CSX Intermodals average speeds as low as 22 mph. They aren't getting in the way of anything.
CSX tells their customers that the UPS trains would move a LOT faster if Amtrak wasn't in the way. You've been around railroading for a while. You know how truth is the first thing that gets 12-9'ed. :)
Compare the CSX B&O mainline w/ the competing CR/NS PRR main just 30-50 miles north. The B&O main has max speed 50mph, passenger, all the way from Brunswick MD to Pittsburgh PA, many places less. The entire sand patch grade is restricted for 25/20 mph for all rains up and down. The balast is extremely light and the line has many many tight curves. The CR route has heavy rail and balast w/ 50/60 mph freight speeds and 80 mph speeds along the whole route. Heavy balast and rail, 40 mph on the grade. 3 main line tracks along he grade. Better curves and cab signals and, in the CR/NS age have been extended all the way to Cleveland. The line from CP-PENN to CR-ROCHESTER is 3/4 track, 80mph and is the equilivent to a Freight NEC. The CSX mail line accross the river is NOTHING like that. Amtrak trains that run on NS trackage (like Train 41) get priority and run ON TIME. In fact, NS puts their own intermodal trailers on these trains cause they know they can make them run on time.
Well, for what it's worth, CSX country along the Chicago line is starting to slow down in keeping with tradition. Ask folks who do the Lake Shore Line how much they like waiting for coalers and UPS trains to go past. I figure another year or two of deterioration should have CSX putting them on the ground as often as they do down sooth. :)
Hey, lets get our facts straight:
Train #41 runs CSX (ex-B&O) from Pittsburgh, PA to Chicago, IL. Train #41 is never on time, but usually because of the CSX portion. Particularly on the section west of Akron, OH, because the CSX main is congested, the train gets delayed. This isn't due to CSX's unwillingness to give it priority. It's because CSX simply doesn't have enough capacity.
Train #43 runs NS (ex-PRR) from Harrisburg, PA to Cleveland, OH. Train #43 usually hits a small delay at Harrisburg, but is usually OK all the way. NS likes the trani enough to trust them with its trailers. Pity that Amtrak hadn't shifted all the NYP-CHI riders from #49 to #43.
Train #49 runs CSX (ex-NYC) from New York, NY to Cleveland, OH. I noticed that performance had been worse since CSX took over from Conrail, but that's like saying if I became CEO of BNSF, I wouldn't do a better job than Rob Krebs.
CSX does not dispatch well, but strategically I don't think they actually want the Amtraks out. If NS/Amtrak works out a deal where all pax trains will be rerouted away from CSX (i.e. Lake Shore Ltd would run via NEC to NYP and then westwards via PHL and NS main over the mountain) I think CSX would be yelling. And anyway all the freight revenue is over the NS main and that is really all that matters. People in upstate New York will get screwed but they only have CSX to blame.
AEM7
Of course, this story doesn't even merit a bleep on the Chicago Tribune's site, even though Chicago is a hub for God-knows-how-many (a dozen or so?) Amtrak routes. The Trib is firmly in John McCain's camp when it comes to Amtrak funding, even though they've been relentlessly crusading for the expansion of O'Hare.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Does this seem like a little grandstanding to anyone besides me? I really can't see Amtrak shutting all operations in 30 days.
It is sort of like when they look to do a fare hike in NYC. Let out an early press release that the MTA Board will be looking at raising the fare to $75.00 per ride. Then announce that, through the efforts of the management, the fire hike will simply be 25 cents.
Chip
Actually, I hope it does shut down, just so watch how fast those Republicans in Washington realize their mistake. It'll be like when they shut down the government under Gingrich: it was their Republican constituents who made the obscene phone calls over the inconvenience they'd been put to.
And if they do, I'd push for the Democrats to suspend the Federal subsidy to the DC system. Let all those commuting Republican congressmen enjoy the freeways.
As a practical matter, were I a NYC Democrat in Washington, I'd forever be warring against the DC Metro as a tactic for shaking loose more Fed money for the subways.
Goody, Penn station will have to close and we'll have a sudden upsurge of LIRR service to Flatbush, Hunterspoint and Long Island City. The P train will run from Jamaica to Penn Station nonstop via the Jamaica Avenue El, Christie st and W4th with 10 car R-32s.
Well, at least I presume that will happen since that was the plan for during the strike!
If Amtrak closes I'm sure Pataki will get an emergency court order keeping Penn Station open by having the Amtrak operating personnel report to the MTA.
This would be different from a strike in that the personnel would be willling to work.
I was on the F train today and changed at Delancey for the J downtown. I see that there's a lot of construction happening on the downtown platform. I noticed that some of the platform wall has been broken through, revealing platform space and another, older platform wall behind it.
I know that this station dates back to the pre-Dual Contracts era and used to be called "Delancey Street." I was hoping to see some old "Delancey Street" signs or tablets but didn't notice any.
Anyone have any info on what's being done at this station? Looks like a lot of work is going on.
That "cement block" wall was put up in 1989, when they did a sort of renovation. The old wall behind was the original wall that used to be exposed. There were a bunch of stairways along that wall. So the old wall is a stairway width behind the new wall. Where the current wall is now, they used to have "jail" type bars along that whole wall closing off the stairways where the current wall is now, and it was a real mess because they used to store all kinds of junk there.
The original wall is the IRT type "brick" tiles, but there were no mosaics or name tablets. I don't know when the "jail" bars went up there, but before 1989 they simply had the standard black metal "Essex" signs hanging every so many feet on the bars.
They are currently rehabbing the station, but I have no idea what they have planned. I wonder if the old trolly station will be covered from view after all these years on the opposite side. I've seen photos of the old trolly station in use and it had the same IRT type brick tiles like the wall they are currently uncovering on the Broad ST bound side.
Does anyone know what the original layout of the old Essex station was? I wonder if it was a two track "wall" platform station, or was it a two track "island" platform. I'm sure the original layout is no the three track, one wall, one island arrangement we have at Essex today.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/willb.html
Okay then, so the wall platform was part of the original station (that's what I figured because the original tiles on the wall platform were like those in the trolly station (see link in post above). The island platfrom looks like it was added later when they got rid of the other two platforms Essex had and turned it from a two track terminal with three platforms, into a three track through station with two platforms. The place where the current island platform is now looks like it was where one of the original tracks were, and where the center track is, is where the original island platform was.
The station complex (BMT and IND) is being rehabbed. I don't really have any more information than that.
The BMT station was never called Delancey Street, since the BMT runs along Delancey itself. It's the IND station which is called Delancey; the IND runs along Essex.
I also noticed a bit of the old wall there a few days ago.
I once saw a book that contained a BRT system map pre-Dual Contracts. The station now called Essex Street was then called Delancey Street. It was the BRT terminal in Manhattan after service began over the Willie B by BRT trains. It was only after service extended along Delancey Street to Bowery and Canal that the name was changed to Essex Street. I'm certain of this.
I've seen that myself actually, but I forgot where. I remember seein the station called Delancy when it was the terminal. For the life of me and cam't remember where.
I've seen that myself actually, but I forgot where. I remember seein the station called Delancy when it was the terminal. For the life of me and cam't remember where.
Likewise! The following web page says it was initially called Manhattan Terminal:
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/history01.html
Further down that same page, we read:
"As the design of the loop progressed, the Triborough Plan of future routes and tunnel clearances was released, and the plans were later changed and the multi-level stations dropped, leaving stations at Canal St, The Bowery and Delancey Street."
Okay, this is only a reference in an article to it being called Delancey St until the loop construction began, but I believe it to be correct.
I knew I've seen it somewhere! That may not be where I saw it, but at least I don't feel like I'm going crazy. It was called Delancey at one time.
I knew I've seen it somewhere! That may not be where I saw it, but at least I don't feel like I'm going crazy. It was called Delancey at one time.
Oh, I've seen better instances than that one too, GP38, but I didn't have much time to find them. I knew you were right, so I posted what I could find.
I've seen that myself actually, but I forgot where. I remember seein the station called Delancy when it was the terminal. For the life of me and cam't remember where.
See "A History of the NYC Subway System: Rapid Transit in Brooklyn" by Cunningham/Dehart, pages 29 (a map of the BRT from 1900 - 1910), page 30 (the description of the Centre St Loop under the Triborough Plan mentions "The route would begin at the BRT Delancey Street EL terminal ...") and page 32 (a description of the same route under the Dual Contracts).
People really do read my articles :) I am hoping to start another one really soon now.
--Mark
People really do read my articles :) I am hoping to start another one really soon now.
Please do, Mark! Your articles are informative and high quality!
Further down that same page, we read:
"As the design of the loop progressed, the Triborough Plan of future routes and tunnel clearances was released, and the plans were later changed and the multi-level stations dropped, leaving stations at Canal St, The Bowery and Delancey Street."
Here is the map I have of the Triborough Plan - maybe this helps
Triborough Route
Interesting. De Kalb without the Brighton or Sea Beach Lines, but with a Lafayette Av Line! That would've been really wierd!
Is it this map?
BRT Map
That platform was rehabbed in 1989. They're doing it again. And Chambers St. continues to remain in decrepit condition.
It really makes you wonder how some stations get priority over others. Chambers really needs repairs. The pillars are full of bullet holes with the bullets still inside some! The station's tile is almost completely yellow and the lighting is extremely poor. Something had better be done.
A huge skyscraper eyed for Ground Zero -- and why it might soar
by Blair Kamin, Chicago Tribune architecture critic.
[shameless plug for my site]
Probably best to go here for my own comments and to post your response, since this is a bit off-topic for SubTalk, but I know there's a lot of people here with a strong interest in what happens to the WTC site.
[/shameless plug for my site]
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
I've registered for the Times and no one else. The LA Times recently started requiring it so I've stopped reading them. The Sun-Times does not make you register -- and they got Ebert.
So, David, precis it, unfair-use it.
They should be rebuilt. I loved those buildings.
Here here! I love buildings that are just as wide at the top as they are at the bottom. Coming to a point is a waste of real estate.
Here here! I love buildings that are just as wide at the top as they are at the bottom. Coming to a point is a waste of real estate.
By that logic, the Woolworth Building, the Empire State Building, and the Chrysler Building never should have been built.
New York's setback laws were actually written to avoid repeats of monstrosities like the Equitable Building, which was as wide at the top as at the bottom. Unfortunately, beginning in the 1960's, developers were able to side-step the setback laws by incorporating barren plazas into their designs, but I believe even that loophole has been closed now.
-- David
Chicago, IL
New York's setback laws were actually written to avoid repeats of monstrosities like the Equitable Building
Setbacks also make it more comfortable for pedestrians when it's blowing a gale - they absorb much of the magnifying effect of tall buildings on air movement.
New York's setback laws were actually written to avoid repeats of monstrosities like the Equitable Building, which was as wide at the top as at the bottom
The Twin Towers were as wide at the top as they were at the bottom.....
And, architecturally, they were monstrosities. Although I, like all who believe in freedom, lament the way in which the Towers were brought down, I do not lament the opportunity which we now have to build a more graceful structure or structures on that site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's what I loved about 'em.
I'd like to see a building as tall as the towers were built there, but it won't happen for several reasons:
1. Nobody will work in it. I won't work in any building they put up on that site, even if it's on the ground floor.
2. It's cheaper to build numerous smaller buildings than one large one.
3. The market won't support it. Many of the former WTC tenants have relocated permanently to midtown or New Jersey. Not enough new ones can replace them.
4. The WTC towers were built in a different era where technology was king and bragging rights were important. Today, economic & safety issues are supreme.
The more I think about it, the more in favor I am of another tall building on the WTC site. I believe the towers' actual footprints should be incorporated into whatever memorial gets built there, but even with the block bounded by West, Fulton, Greenwich, and Liberty Streets off-limits to development, there is still plenty of space along the northern and eastern edges of the site for one or more tall skyscrapers.
1. Nobody will work in it. I won't work in any building they put up on that site, even if it's on the ground floor.
That may appliy to you, but it won't apply to everybody else. 15 years from now, assuming there's new buildings on that site in one form or another, would you turn down a great job offer just because the company is located on that site? Do you think everybody else would?
2. It's cheaper to build numerous smaller buildings than one large one.
If it weren't profitable to build super-tall buildings, then there's plenty of other tall buildings that never would have been built. Last I heard, the Sears Tower, Hancock Center, and the Empire State Building all manage to turn nice profits for their respective owners.
3. The market won't support it. Many of the former WTC tenants have relocated permanently to midtown or New Jersey. Not enough new ones can replace them.
That may be true today, but will it be true ten or fifteen years from now? Even in this staggering economy, Manhattan remains among the most expensive real estate in the world. If somebody wants to build a million square feet of office space on a 100,000 square foot site, the only way to go is up. The economy will eventually rebound, and tenants will again be paying outrageous rents for office space in lower Manhattan.
4. The WTC towers were built in a different era where technology was king and bragging rights were important. Today, economic & safety issues are supreme.
In other words, we've lost our balls. There's nothing about a tall skyscraper that would necessarily preclude economy and safety issues. Tall skyscrapers have made economic sense in the past, and I don't think that will change in the long-term future. We've learned a great deal about safety issues since 9/11, and I believe those lessons can be incorporated into new designs without making tall buildings unprofitable.
I think a tall building on the WTC site would be appropriate for several reasons:
1) It would fill the void left by the WTC's demise. I'm not arguing for the reconstruction of the original design (see my response to TonyR40M), but I think New York needs something to serve as a visual anchor for the lower Manhattan skyline in the way the WTC did. As Blair Kamin points out in his article, lower Manhattan is now like a bunch of foothills that don't lead up to any mountains.
2) I don't think we should build a tall skyscraper just to spite a bunch of religious fanatics living in caves, but I think it would be a symbolic gesture of healing and determination. When entire cities like London and Chicago burnt down, they weren't rebuilt exactly the way they were before, but were rebuilt even more spectacularly. A similar opportunity exists here, and it would be a shame to waste that.
3) Any new skyscraper wouldn't necessarily be subject to the same fate as the WTC. We are now learning that there were many design facotrs of the WTC that made them vulnerable to a catastrophic collapse due to intense fires. We also know that our airports and airlines had flaws that made them vulnerable to terrorist hijackings. Now that those flaws have been made obvious to us, they can be corrected.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think the Empire State Building has not been doing marvelousely as of late. Didn't Trump and some other guy buy it for $40 Mil? Heck, if you made more than $10-Mil a year, you could probably afford to live in the whole thing and pay the mortgage (but probably not the elec bill).
Op Transit: How about opening up a hot air balloon shuttle between the ESB airship mast and the airports ;)
Well, the Empire State Building is a unique case because it has relatively small and inflexible floor plans, which makes it unsuitable for the vast cubicle farms that most large corporations love. However, it's home to many smaller companies that don't require multiple large floors, and it's able to compensate economically because of its venerable landmark status. I'm sure there's a few tenants who would pay almost any dollar amount just to be located in that building.
If the Empire State Building ever did cease to remain profitable as an office building, I'm sure it could be converted to residential use and do quite well. That's actually been a fairly common pattern here in Chicago, where older landmark office buildings are converted to condos. The buildings' inflexiblity makes them difficult to use as modern offices, but their quaint charm insures that condo buyers will gobble them up for top dollar.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Op Transit: How about opening up a hot air balloon shuttle between the ESB airship mast and the airports ;)
There actually were helicopter shuttles to the airports from the top of the PanAm (now Met Life) building. They were stopped, however, after an accident maybe 20 years ago sent debris falling to the streets and resulted in several deaths among pedestrians.
One of the deaths was a nun who was beheaded. I know that sounds like something out of alt.jokes.tasteless, but it's really true!
Any new skyscraper wouldn't necessarily be subject to the same fate as the WTC. We are now learning that there were many design facotrs of the WTC that made them vulnerable to a catastrophic collapse due to intense fires. We also know that our airports and airlines had flaws that made them vulnerable to terrorist hijackings. Now that those flaws have been made obvious to us, they can be corrected.
Not to get too far OT, but one change I'd expect to see in future skyscrapers is dispersal of the emergency stairways. Instead of clustering them in the core, as was the case with the WTC, future buildings might have them near each corner, to the extent that's feasible from an engineering standpoint. Stairway walls are also sure to be hardened with something a bit stronger than drywall.
I agree. At the very least, we'll probably see more stairways spread further apart, not to mention seeing them built with concrete walls.
Concrete walls for stairwells (whether in the form of cast-in-place concrete or CMU blocks) are actually the norm in most modern high-rises. The Sears Tower, already under construction when the WTC was completed, has three stairwells with concrete-block walls, and they're pretty well spread throughout the building. I was shocked to learn that the WTC's stairwells only had drywall, but then, we've known since the first WTC bombing in 1993 that a number of corners were cut in the WTC's construction, especially in regards to fire safety and emergency egress. NYC actually has some of the most stringent fire codes in the country, but because the WTC was built by a multi-state agency, they figured it was exempt from the city building codes. Bad move.
Also, even before 9/11, using a reinforced concrete structure instead of steel is becomming more common due to strong advances in concrete technology. The Petronas Towers in Malaysia have a rienforced concrete structure, as do a number of other tall buildings. I'd expect to see concrete become even more common due to its superior fire resistance.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I had given some thought to this. The law requires a stairway to be within 75' (?) of any place on a floor, and that stairways must be remote from each other. While all of the WTC stairways were in the core they each faced a different direction and were thus remote from each other as far as access goes.
Exits from buildings includes vertical and horizontal exits. Floors compartmentalized in this manner can serve as a save exit from the other in the event of a conventional fire. Of course nothing can stand up to a neculear bomb or its equivlient 767.
The building is required to have a fire plan and fire wardens on each floor (employees of each tenant with appropriate training will sufice) to impliment evacuation. Apparently the fire department was not supposed to send men up those stairs until the evacuation was complete. It was the responsibility of the fire wardens to manage the evacuation, and they needed all of the stairway capacity for exiting, rather than for firefighters going the other way.
Buildings of this size need their own fire departments. The WTC had more people working in it that live in the entire city of Bismarck, North Dakota! Paid firefighters (employees of the building management) should have been on duty in the building to manage fire fighting equipment and services that are part of the building. Again, there is little they could do against a nuclear attack, but management of all other situations is required.
And they need more 1:1 scale trains in the basement (jsut to stay on topic)
Elias
The building is required to have a fire plan and fire wardens on each floor (employees of each tenant with appropriate training will sufice) to impliment evacuation. Apparently the fire department was not supposed to send men up those stairs until the evacuation was complete.
On my floor (44), my boss was the fire warden. He performed his duty until the Port Authority's announcement that the emergency was located in the other tower (north) and that everyone could return to their offices. There was no emergency in our building after that, so he decided to heed the advice of the Morgan Stanley security, who ordered all their floors evacuated (The man who made this decision was killed). He was one of the last civilians to leave the 44th floor and was down to about the 12th floor when our building was hit.
All of the carefully constructed disaster emergency protocols (which we all had to practice during our frequent and annoying fire drills) collapsed.
On my floor (44), my boss was the fire warden. He performed his duty until the Port Authority's announcement that the emergency was located in the other tower (north) and that everyone could return to their offices. There was no emergency in our building after that, so he decided to heed the advice of the Morgan Stanley security, who ordered all their floors evacuated (The man who made this decision was killed). He was one of the last civilians to leave the 44th floor and was down to about the 12th floor when our building was hit.
It's hard to blame the Port Authority for asking people in the south tower to remain in their offices. No one had any way of knowing that there'd be a second plane, of course. Evacuating the south tower, had there actually been no second plane, would not have been without risks, what with falling debris and people getting in the way of emergency responders.
All of the carefully constructed disaster emergency protocols (which we all had to practice during our frequent and annoying fire drills) collapsed.
The people conducting fire drills for my company used to say that it was unnecessary to evacuate the entire building in case of fire. All we had to do was evacuate to the floor below the fire floor and remain there.
Needless to say, they don't give that advice anymore!
"The people conducting fire drills for my company used to say that it was unnecessary to evacuate the entire building in case of fire. All we had to do was evacuate to the floor below the fire floor and remain there.
Needless to say, they don't give that advice anymore! "
That was indeed the correct advice, given a NORMAL fire. For a mass disaster it is not. Clearly an airliner with 4000 tons of fuel is not going to be your normal fire.
You don't do open heart surgery on a splinter, but when it is needed, nothing else will do.
Elias
Actually. The stairwells in the Twin Towers were built a bit wider than most buildings of that time. Even though FDNY DID manage to get fire supression equipment to the point where the 1st plane had struck. They were a factor in delaying people from walking down the stairs as the buildings were on fire. Every time a firefighter would go up the stairs with their bulky equipment people would have to put their backs to the wall to allow them to go through. So in a way the firefighters were slowing down the very people they were trying to save. Im not saying they should not have gone up there in the first place. But more stairways should have been built.
Second of all. If the CORE had been built out of stronger material . It would have helped save more people. Do you guys know that the core of the building that was hit second (And first to collapse) actually survived for a few moments after its surroundings (Meaning the exterior of the building) went down?
At the very least, we'll probably see more stairways spread further apart, not to mention seeing them built with concrete walls.
I have admittedly rather limited experience in this area, but our entire complex (four buildings constructed in the late '90s, one larger one constructed about 1991-1992) have stairways at the core and the corners - the older building has two stairs in the core with one at each of the four wing ends (the building is shaped like a fat plus sign) while the somewhat smaller, newer buildings have one huge central stairway and three other stairways spaced equidistant around the perimeter. And the walls of all of them are concrete (except the central stairways in the newer buildings, which are open). So I think that approach has been around for a while now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Can someone email me a copy of the Chicago Tribune article-- who ever does will get a free trolley ride!!
Bob D.
Sent. Check your e-mail.
-- David
Chicago, IL
True but the biggest lesson learned from the WTC disaster is that you're in much more danger the higher up in the building you are. Solution: don't make buildings 110 stories. What's the matter with Silverstien's plan for 4 55 story towers? Replaces all the lost office space in the towers in a much safer and economical way.
Remember, the original Twin towers were supposed to be only 80 stories tall. Only David Rockerfeller's case of penis-envy wanting the TWO tallest buildings in the world led to the extra 30 floors being tacked on.
Actually 80 stories is not that bad, the ES Building's observation deck is at about 86 or so, and that's not too shabby. I hope whatever they build will be at least 80 stories, because then maybe they could put an observation deck, and a Windows on the WOrld type retaurant up high again there.
I don't know if any of the Subtalkers are aware of this, but AOL-Time Warner has plans to build twin 80 story towers in Columbus Circle as part of a complex. They were meant to compliment the WTC Twin Towers. If this does indeed occur, then the new WTC should and must be built bigger.
JDL
Given AOL's financial position and the economy in general, I'd be surprised to see that plan go through. Also, I suspect there'd be a great deal of NIMBY opposition to towers of that height up there. Another large proposal for Columbus Circle back in the 80's was shot down due to NIMBY concerns.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Given AOL's financial position and the economy in general, I'd be surprised to see that plan go through. Also, I suspect there'd be a great deal of NIMBY opposition to towers of that height up there. Another large proposal for Columbus Circle back in the 80's was shot down due to NIMBY concerns.
Construction's well underway on the AOL-Time Warner center. It will actually be a mixed-use development rather than entirely offices.
Really? I stand corrected then. But will it actually be twin 80-story towers, or has the project been scaled down? Who's the architect? Anyplace where I can see some renderings online?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The NIMBY oppositon in the 1980's was against a Trump plan for a 200 story building at Columbus Circle.
I think that would have been somewhat taller than Petronas.
Bob D.
I thought the 200 story proposal was by Jimmy James of Jimmy James, Inc. :-)
You obviously won't like this: The building is being designed by SOM.
Figures... The AOL of architecture firms to design AOL's headquarters.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Dave,
There was a picture in the NY Post about 3 weeks ago. I can't recall the date though.
JDL
Yeah, Right... AOL (aka Enron) hasn't got a pot to pee in, and they want to build twin out houses!
HA!
Heh... I'm all in favor of tall skyscrapers in NYC, but I hate AOL almost as much as I hate Wal-Mart and Disney.
I can't even trust them to run an internet service, much less build an 80-story tower or two. Imagine getting a pop-up ad everytime you try to push the elevator button... Sheesh!
-- David
Chicago, IL
I made a site visit to AOL HQ over in Virginia a few summers back. It was one of those "it's a swealtering day in the middle of summer and we're bored to tears" so someone got the building people to rig their speaking elevators to play that "Welcome!" sound whenever the doors opened.
Heh... I'm all in favor of tall skyscrapers in NYC, but I hate AOL almost as much as I hate Wal-Mart and Disney.
I totally agree with you, but I'm indifferent to Disney. Thank God for Earthlink, I love 'em. And I'm also glad we don't have a single f%^#ing Wal-fart in Atlanta.
"AOL - so easy to use, no wonder it doesn't work"
I think that the exact location of the new tower is dictated by where the bathtub is. This means that the new tower will be in the same place as the old towers.
Elias
Just out of curiousity, what are the extents of the bathtub? How far east and north does it go?
I don't necessarily agree that a new tower must be located within the existing bathtub, although it would certainly save some money. There's no reason a new bathtub couldn't be dug east of Greenwich Street. If I'm not mistaken, bedrock isn't too far below the surface no matter where you dig in Manhattan. (Compare to Chicago, where pilings must be sunk though a hundred feet of muck and clay before hitting bedrock.) Also, I believe the original reasons for digging the "bathtub" have been somewhat negated, since the Hudson River waterfront was filled in to create the landfill upon which the World Financial Center now sits.
Actually, getting back on-topic, I'd like to see the existing bathtub extended east to Church Street. Since below-grade parking is no longer a viable option for high-rises, I'd leave that whole subterranien area open, with the rebuilt PATH platforms forming the floor of a vast underground space. (The new streets and development above would form the "roof".) The Cortland IRT station would essentially then become an underground "elevated" station, with the various escalators, mezzanines, ramps, and structural members left open to view. Anybody who has been to the Westminster station on the London Underground will have a pretty good idea of what I have in mind.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think something tall should go on the site. There must be some profitability in tall buildings, as alot of asian countries are still building tall buildings (such as the Petronas Towers). Also remember the current economy has nothing to do with the future economy. The Empire State and the World Trade Center had a hard time filling up when they were new. As for the fear factor, that will fade over time. I feel they should build something tall there with an observation deck and incorportate the memorial up high on the upper floors. No one would mind spending a few hours up there. The observation deck was a popular destination before September, and the WTC will always be a "Tourist Attraction" even more so than before.
"We also know
that our airports and airlines had flaws that made them vulnerable to terrorist hijackings. Now that those flaws have been
made obvious to us, they can be corrected. "
Trouble is ---
ARE they being corrected? Last I heard airport security is still a joke. Many things have not changed. People are still able to get potentially harmful objects through. Cockpit doors have still been spotted as not being secured.
It seems that there is some major foot dragging in that area.
According to the article I saw in the News, it would be empty above the 70th floor for some of those reasons. Just a hollow glass monument.
Well, not quite empty I would think.
The Television transmitters *must* be on the tallest structure in the city, otherwise the taller structures will reflect the signal causing ghosts on the screen.
The transmitters themselves want to as close to the antenas as possible. There will need to be some sort of access core, with an elevator all the way to the top so that the mast, and its antenas and lights may be serviced. Certainly rooms for the TV tansmitters can be concealed in this 30 story 'extension' and there will be no problem in renting this space to the TV stations, since that is where they *have* to be.
I would also put water bunkers up there for fire fighting purposes, (again not that it would have helped in a 767 attack). The building needs its own water supply with a gravity feed to fight any sort of common fires.
Apropos of the vanishing setbacks commented upon in other posts, the setbacks are mostly to let LIGHT down into the city streets. To eliminate the setback, all you need do is make your tower as narrow as the narrowest part permitted for a given elvation and site size. This tends to put an open plaza around newer builtinds, which is an altogether wonderful idea. This is why the late WTC has so much open area around the two towers. Any new building will have similar open space arund the towers.
I disagree. The WTC towers, despite having become sanctified by the events of 9/11, were too boxy and unresponsive to their surroundings. They embodied the worst of 1970's architecture. Rebuilding them wouldn't change that. The opportunity here is to correct the mistakes of the past, rather than repeat them in a knee-jerk reaction.
Besides that, if you had a son who was brutally murdered, do you think you could replace him by creating a clone? The mere thought is just plain creepy. The same issue applies to the WTC site. Rebuilding the towers wouldn't bring back a single one of the 3000 lives that were lost, nor would it erase the horrible memories of that day. Like an amputee who must eventually adjust to a new body image after losing a limb in a car accident, New York will have to adjust to a new skyline in whatever form it eventually takes. It's a painful process, but it will happen.
Like the name of a great ship that tragically sank, or like the jersey of a beloved athlete, the original WTC should be retired and allowed to rest in peace. And New York should be allowed to move on.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I've registered for the Times and no one else. The LA Times recently started requiring it so I've stopped reading them. The Sun-Times does not make you register -- and they got Ebert.
So, David, precis it, unfair-use it.
I'm not in the business of posting copyrighted materials to message boards. You'll just have to register on the Trib's site and read the article for yourself. If you don't want to do that, then it's your loss.
-- David
Chicago, IL
David,
Thanks for that article. At least we're making real progress now on the height issue. Next step, getting the towers rebuilt.....
JDL
As a New Yorker, thats great news, and I look forward to another dominating skyscraper.
As an ex-firefighter, I think it sucks.
Something that the American people don't understand is that skyscrapers that high are death traps in fire, and there is absolutely nothing that can be done to change it. I really do hope that they build something at least as tall as the former WTC, but everyone also has to realize that in order to do so, safety WILL have to be compromised. Hopefully, no more incidents are gonna happen in our skyscrapers anytime soon.
I'm generally in favor of a tall skyscraper being built at the WTC site, although I don't think Skidmore, Owings, and Merrill is the right firm to design it. They did some great skyscrapers back in the 60's (Sears Tower, Hancock Center), but for the past thirty years they've been a corporate assembly line cranking out one mediocre design after another. I tend to think of SOM as the Sony of architecture: Their products are okay but hardly noteworthy, but their vast size and huge name-recognition factor still get them huge high-profile commissions. I think there's plenty of much better architectural talent out there.
Your concerns about high-rises are valid, but I believe it's possible to build skyscrapers in a way that avoids some of the oversights of the WTC. See my responses to Peter Rosa about just a couple of the changes we'll be likely to see in future high-rise construction. It will be interesting to see what other changes are made, as well. I'll definately be keeping a close eye on the architectural trade journals over the next couple years.
-- David
Chicago, IL
In terms of possibly designing super-tall buildings safer, the only thing they can really do is develop new fire retardant protection for steel beams to try to protect from the heat for a few hours. The problem with high buildings is simple---its logistically impossible to fight fire in them. It takes literally hours to reach the fire floor, once your guys get there, they are beyond exhausted. And also, in the time to reach the fire floor structural failure is very probable. Once you reach the fire, your chances of extinguishing it are very slim. One 2 1/2" hose line can extinguish about 2500 sq ft of fire, which isnt much. Water availability is also a major concern.
You might think standpipes and sprinklers might solve some of these problems, BUT....
the public would be astonished to find out how many buildings have faulty sprinklers and standpipe systems.
As I'm employed by the mortgage company that arranged the refinancing of the WTC towers a few months prior to 9/11, I will relate what we've been told.
Most of the "paper" resulting from the refinance prior to 9/11 was securitized, or sold to investors. Our company retained a share also. Therefore, the loss is spread out amongst many investors.
There are several factors that will determine what is built on the parcels that are referred to as Ground Zero. But two are very important.
First is that there is a legal battle between the investors and the insurance companies that insured the properties. It will be up to the courts to interpret if there was "one event" or "two events". Of course if there was one event, the insurers get out of paying a great deal of money, however, if it is ruled that there were two separate events, there will mean a bigger payout for the claims. The more money paid in settlement of claims, the more seed money for rebuilding. Of course the payout will never equal the loss, both to buildings and people.
Secondly, the City of New York, and/or the State of New York, will probably have a say in what replaces the towers - of course we all know it will most likely become political.
However, whatever they decide or allow to be built, let’s make sure trains are running underneath the property again.
Jim K.
Chicago
First is that there is a legal battle between the investors and the insurance companies that insured the properties. It will be up to the courts to interpret if there was "one event" or "two events". Of course if there was one event, the insurers get out of paying a great deal of money, however, if it is ruled that there were two separate events, there will mean a bigger payout for the claims.
If I recall correctly, the basis of the insurance companies' single-event claim is that because the towers shared a single foundation, the collapse of one would have rendered the other one structurally unsound and necessitated its demolition (and what a job that would have been!) It sounds like the sort of issue that will boil down to a battle of the $10,000-per-day expert witnesses.
However, whatever they decide or allow to be built, let’s make sure trains are running underneath the property again.
Absolutely! But at least that's actually getting done.
Whoa! What was that R142/ 142A doing on Jerome and Mosholu Pkwy today?
It pulled in, southbound, at about noon, appeared to make the station stop, then pulled out. 10 cars! Was it in service or simulation? I could not see the fleet numbers.
joe c
It must been the same train that I saw on the Livonia el, signed up as a 4 around 10pm tonight. I believe it was a R142a.
I understand that the #4 is scheduled to get a cut of the R142 fleet, to replace its 9200-series R33s. If the option order is exercised, the #3 will get some R142 as well.
wayne
The option has been exercised already, and the number of cars in the procurement was also increased through a "change order."
David
Well I'm glad I left early enough today! I arrived at Penn station (making good time on the 7 and 1 lines) at 8:15am. When I walked through Penn to the NJT area nothing seemed amiss, but I wasn't looking at the TV screen and electronic "big board".
So I waited in line for my tickets, which wasn't long. When I finally got to the window the clerk said there are no trains to Summit, I will have to take PATH to Hoboken.
He didn't say why. At this point if I am taking PATH I might as well just take the #70 from Newark. So that is what I did. I took a packed PATH train from 33rd street to Newark. Man was that train stuffed, and boy did it empty out at Grove street. There seems to be alot of people who commute from NYC to grove street. And without the WTC line, it meant more crowds. After getting out of the slow ride in the tunnel, the ride was very brisk west of Journal Square. Those PATH trains seem to be quite fast, almost as fast as LIRR MU's. Around Harrson there's alot of police activity on the NJ/Amtrak tracks. Track workers all around. I was starting to connect that this had to do with the no Midtown direct to Summit. And there it was, an NJT train with one car obviously derailed. After I saw that I put 1010 on and sure enough, there was no Midtown direct due to a derailment of an NJT train.
Newark Penn station is a very nice facility, I like it better, much better than NYC Penn. After getting confused and slowed down, I finally found the ticket window, got my bus tickets and just made the #70 bus.
The bus ride was long, but interesting. Newark around Penn is actually not too bad at all, lots of office buildings and stuff. The western section is the decrepid area though, but things started improving after Irvington.
Even though the ride was an hour, the bus was pretty fast enginewise.
The mall itself is in a kinda ruralish area, reminded me abit of the north shore (I definately like Paramus better).
The mall is very upscale, and as I expected there wasn't one reasonable place to eat. It's worth no more than an hour or two.
I headed back on the 70 in the early afternoon for another fairly brisk ride to Newark Penn.
This time I was lucky enough to grab the front window the whole way for another very enjoyable PATH ride. I forgot how much I liked PATH. The cars are much quieter than NYCT's, and they take turns faster. Not to mention operators are very agressive signal-wise compared to NYCT.
Passing Harrison there were stills lots of workers around, but I couldn't see the train.
Sorry I didn't get any NJT rail pics. The weather was kinda dismal anyway.
John,
Next time you're in Newark Penn Station, follow the signs to the Newark City Subway, pay $1.50, and get on the light rail car downstairs. I haven't ridden it since it converted to light rail cars from PCC cars last August, but I'm sure you'll enjoy the ride.
Bob
Are these the same or similar light rail cars in use on HBLR?
They are one and the same.
To the passenger, anyway...
I've had lunch at 50s-style diner at Short Hills. At least it looked 50s-ish to me. Don't remember the name of it, although the food was pretty good.
Johnny Rockets.
There's one at GS Plaza as well.
Thanks.
I don't think we ever ate at GS Plaza when we used to go there.
Is that pedestrian bridge across Rt. 4 still there?
Yeah I think that was Johnny Rockets. They are good, but their prices have gone up. Not as reasonable as Wendy's or Nathans.
The only time I went there was maybe five years ago. My niece was still a toddler then.
Just to add one more thing, while riding the PATH train back to Manhattan I noticed between Newport and the last switch before the tube, the train did NOT stop for those red signals, it crept by at 5mph. Is this some type of key-by? If it is, I guess PATH allows key by more frequently. Just another reason I wish NYCT was more like PATH. :-)
Was there a lunar white aspect mixed up with those reds?
Did the trip arm drop before the train passed? Some T/Os crowd the signals so closely they change after they are out of the railfan's field of vision. The best place to see if a signal changes is out the right window behind the cab.
I was right up on that window, and the signal stayed red till it went out of vision. As for the trip arm, I never saw it drop, but it must have.
You'd never see them play it so close on NYCT, not anymore anyway.
What PATH engineers do a lot and I see it all the time, would charge the red light and a second before of hitting it, the light would turn yellow. Cowboy engineers I guess.
There's a bit of a delay between when the arm starts to lower and when the signal changes, presumably to allow for varying air pressure (lower pressure will cause the arm to go gown more slowly). Some engineers will take advantage of this.
However, it can fool them - I was on a late-night round-robin train a few months ago where the train was tripped not once but twice by red signals - once near Morton St. (westbound) and again between F and K (before Grove St.).
Actually, the way it works is that when the conditions call for
clearing the signal, first the stop arm is driven down. The
signal bulbs are interlocked through some cam switches in the stop
arm mechanism. The signal will always display red unless the arm
has reached a clear position. This way, if the stop mechanism has
failed for some reason on a beautiful day with clear track and
bountiful green signals, the motorman/engineer will not be surprised
to find an arm sticking up out of nowhere.
Hmmm. There is a definite sense of delay between when the arm is all the way down and when the signal changes - offhand, I'd say it is about 2 seconds. Is it possible there's a delay network in there?
A year or so ago at the WTC, I was waiting for a late-night train and there was some very odd behavior going on - one by one, each of the trip arms would cycle up and down about 10-15 times. IIRC, these were the non-normal-direction signals at the end of the platform). While the arms were down, the signal aspects did not change from red, though the arms did come back up right away. Is it possible that a delay (if there actually is one) is there to prevent showing brief non-red aspects on the signals in such a case?
Stops that have traffic passing over them from the opposite direction have a circuit leg to drive them down when opposing signals are selected and/or route sticks are dropped out.
Since the behavior you describe was happening late at night, I would guess that the interlocking was being tested somehow.
Depending on the wiring of the signal, there may be another
relay that repeats the clear position of the stop arm. Under
NYCT nomenclature, that would be called the HV relay. Still, 2
seconds sounds like a lot of time! Delay network? Not likely.
Not really typical signaling practice.
As for that other incident, I agree, it sounds like some kind
of testing of the reverse traffic feature. On tracks that are
fully signalled for bidirectional running, when the traffic is
set in one direction, the stops in the opposing direction are
cleared, but the signals would still show red (perhaps as a
reminder that, if you somehow made it past the entrance home
signal, say by hooking down the arm, that you really shouldn't
be there and moving in that direction).
If you were at the front window the signal might have dropped after you lost track of it and b4 the front truck hit the trip arm. Yesterday I saw an example of this as my 33rd St. train took one of the cassion tracks into the Midtown tubes.
"You'd never see them play it so close on NYCT, not anymore anyway."
Oh yeah? Been riding the 14th St tubes lately?
It's a great place to take the uninitiated and watch them react when they realize the train is on the post headed into a red with no lunar. As others will attest, with a good operator, you won't see the last timer change from red.
Last time I rode the L through 14th street I had "scardey cats" both ways, but when I rode the L a few years ago I remember the GT's clearing a few seconds before we passed them. If you get a good T/O, the 14th street tubes can be just as fast as 60th street.
And speaking of the L, I heard on 1010 WINS around 6pm there was no service to Manhattan. What was up with that?
Today at About 12:35 PM i was on a Uptown A and i looked over into a Uptown C Train Window could not see the # was in the Tunnel But the Roller Sign said
168 Street <-Manhattan
Euclid Av <-Brooklyn
C <- Conc/8 Av/Fulton
forgot to Change the Roller sign LoL
Someone probably just scrolled it up one to be funny. I don't know anyone who could possibly find that amusing...
(walks away whistling).
179 St, Jamaica
Rockaway Pky
KK | 6 Av - Bway (Bklyn) Lcl
(I never did that! I swear! Really. Honest)
A recent cartoon (in which paper I can't recall) depicted rich fatcats (the airlines)leaving Capitol Hill with bags of money (subsidies) given generously by Congress while to the side and in the shadows lurked a lone panhandler (Amtrak), with his hat in hand, waiting for any nickels and dimes Congress might seem fit to pass out. Though comical, the picture was nonetheless quite chilling, for we stand on the brink of losing interstate rail travel as we know it. Today's threat by Amtrak to shut down all rail service by July is long overdue and frankly I hope that threat is carried out for only when this nation loses Amtrak will it come to realize how important Amtrak really is. This nation was built upon its rails, be they in the cities or across the prairries. Trains are as much a part of America as the bald eagle and the flag itself for without it neither of the other two would ultimately have mattered much.
Now is the time for railfans to unite; to write to our congressmen, our president, our governors; now is the time to engage in acts of non-violent protests, to clog our streets and our airports with human chains; to dramatize the fact that the preservation of rail transit is crucial to furthering our national interests.
Let not future generations be denied the opportunity to see the majesty of our nation through a cross country trip. Let not our children and our childrens children be denied the chance to dine in a dining car or lulled to sleep by the rumbling rails.
The joys of rail travel have been part and parcel of the American Experience for over a century and a half. Let us therefore get behind Amtrak in her hour of need; let us fight for her, secure in the knowledge that our fight is just and that rail travel is not a privilege, but a birthright for every man, woman, and child in the United States.
President Abraham Lincoln once wrote that "we cannot escape history. We will be remembered in spite of ourselves." Let us not be remembered as the generation of railfans who allowed rail travel to die. Rather let us redouble our efforts, confident of final victory, and determined to ensure that this blessing of rail travel, will yet be enjoyed by many generations unborn.
Eric Dale Smith
It is pretty sad to just watch the government more or less tell Amtrak to "get a life" while $$$ is doled out to airlines and new roads.
If Amtrak shuts down, it'll be one of the greatest American shames.
IMHO, it'll be the start of real progress to workable intercity rail...
What was the point of the Abandoned Roosevelt station, that is perpendicular to the Queens line? What unbuilt line was that supposed to connect to it? I know Rockaway was supposed to connect to 63rd Drive, so I guess it's not that. It also is strange because this station got much further than alot of the other IND provisions. It is more than just a shell (like Utica). Theis station was built, right down to the IND tiling and small tile "Roosevelt" signs ala IND. I've seen photos of the station, but forgot what color the IND stripe is (I think blue).
So why would they build this station, right down to the tiles?
It was meant to be the point where the Winfield spur of the Myrtle-Central-Rockaway line met the current Queens Blvd line.
Read here on nycsubway.org or Joe Brennan's abandoned stations write-up
You really should take the time to explore the rest of nycsubway.org. Many questions that come up here over and over are covered in depth.
Some time ago there was a series of posts outlining possibilities of extending the New York Subway to Staten Island, but after a few days the consensus was that borough didn't want it, didn't need it, and it wasn't going to happen. OK, but Nassau County is a good deal larger and a hell of a lot more congested that Staten Island is. When I was railfanning last week I ran into a number of colleagues from Long Island who bemoaned the fact their country was almost in gridlock what with all the traffic tie-ups and such. I remember riding the BART system in San Fran and the Metro in D.C, and those lines go out into the suburbs. Couldn't that be done in New York as well? It seems to me it could, and judging by all the com plaints about traffic it ought to be something that could be looked into to.
There was some talk about that MANY YEARS ago. I always thought that was a good Idea. Just have the LIRR run all the way to Suffolk with fewer or No stops in Nassau. But wouldnt the cost of converting or making lines for Subway use be astronomical. And lets not forget opposition. :)
The Nassau County types would not want 'social undesirables' using the subways to infiltrate their suburban paradise. If something was built, it would likely be 100% non-connected to the NYC system.
Yes, it was that thinking from the folks in southern Brooklyn neighborhoods like Midwood, Marine Park, and Gerristsen Beach that -- in part -- killed the plans to extend the IRT Flatbush Branch into Sheepshead Bay. The other factor was that the residents felt betrayed by City Hall, after it was stated that the line extension would be a true subway (completely underground), then the truth was 'leaked out' that in fact the line would be an unsightly El that would transverse the residential neighs from south of Kings Highway.
Yes, but they wer planning "subway" but then discovered that it was too wet down there. I'd favor an Elevated out Nostrand and Flatbush (also on Utica) but modern graceful concrete structures designed for speed and quiet bear no resemblance to 19th century technology els.
Out on Long Island, the LIRR runs on elevated strutures through resiential neighborhoods and everybody thought it was a great improvement (to surface running train lines). In my recolection, it really opened up the neighborhoods around the tracks, because now there would be four of five crossingse where once where were only two.
It *can* be done! SCREW THE NIMBYs!
Elias
[It *can* be done! SCREW THE NIMBYs!]
I agree 100% with you. Unfortunately, NIMBY's know how to go into booths on election day in droves and throw leavers...that's the problem...
Unfortunately, NIMBY's know how to go into booths on election day in droves and throw leavers...that's the problem...
It is indeed a classic problem with democracy: the demos doesn't believe in its ideals.
That's why instead of rule by the masses, we have a system for the people.
Referendums except on the most important of subjects (amendment of the state constitution) should be avoided.
Yes, it was that thinking from the folks in southern Brooklyn neighborhoods like Midwood, Marine Park, and Gerristsen Beach that -- in part -- killed the plans to extend the IRT Flatbush Branch into Sheepshead Bay.
Gotta disagree with you on that one, Doug. It was lack of money and TA unwillingness to build that killed the Nostrand and Utica extensions. At least as late as 1964 the communities you mention were very much in favor of the Nostrand Extension and another line on Utica.
In a public hearing that year the TA, with an honesty you would never hear now, told the community that they had no incentive to build these extensions, and collect one fare where they now had two.
But Paul, I could e-mail you the photos (from the BPL collection) of Nostrand Avenue NIMBY's protesting the line in front of City Hall...
But Paul, I could e-mail you the photos (from the BPL collection) of Nostrand Avenue NIMBY's protesting the line in front of City Hall...
I believe you, Doug, but do you have a date for the picture? In my time in the City I never recall anything but that people in southern Brooklyn were cranky that the line wasn't being built.
This is more curious to me, because the line never came close enough to reality to really warrant protests. The time when it seemed closest to reality would have been right after the Bond Issue in 1950. But you need to consider how relatively unpopulated the area was at the time. As an example, the signs on the Flatbush Avenue trolley said that it went to Avenue U, but it never made quite that far, ending in a loop around a shack between T and U. The intersection of Flatbush andU was a country crossroads in 1951.
The one area I know of which decidedly didn't want a subway for social/neighborhood reasons was Maspeth and environs--but I don't know if they ever protested at City Hall over it.
I'll try to find a date (don't recall seeing one), but the name of the protesting group (on a sign) was 'Nostand Taxpayers Association'.
What do the signs say? I think there might have been some protest about Vanderveer Estates (on the old Flatbush Waterworks) in the immediate post-war era. Some anti-subway people might have joined in the same thing.
Taking another point in your earlier post, I recall that at one point some Sheepshead Bay Democrats (who actually drew from an area rather east of Sheepsgead Bay) became aware that most of the Nostrand line would probably have to be an el, and protested that, but their remedy was a subway, not having the line unbuilt.
To put another historical spin on it, at mid-Century the southern area of Nostrand was so unpopulated that Nostrand cars didn't go through, there was a shuttle south of Avenue H on unpaved track. I never fot to ride that one. Older railfans said it was great!
Just to rename this to the topic and add info, Parsons has been hired to do a southern Brooklyn transport study, which is discussed at www.southernbrooklyntis.com. I found out about it at the American Planning Association annual meeting, from a collegue who works for Parsons.
Planning is cheaper than building, and seems to work as well politically. As for building, the last I heard the TA was considering building at better terminal at Flatbush and Nostrand to improve capacity.
There is a reason for the TA to build: subways make money (at least on operating), buses lose money, and the most crowded buses in Brooklyn are in the area not served by subways. But with all of Queens taking a bus to the subway, at all those needs in the center that affect the entire city (ie. Second Ave), hard to see how anything gets built.
My tenure as a Livingston [MT] City Commissioner backs up what you say about planning being cheaper than building. I'm stll hot to find what they've spent for studies on a minor traffic improvement [in a town of 6700 people] could have had the damned thing built already...all over lengthening turning lanes and putting in a left turn signal at one intersection. Unreal. Apparently, according to Cunningham's book...the Nostrand line was going to be extended toward Marine Park in the 1920's as a realtor told a young couple who bought a house there. The book was written about 1977, the couple retired and moved to Florida by then..and that was 25 years ago plus.
I'll try to find a date (don't recall seeing one), but the name of the protesting group (on a sign) was 'Nostrand Taxpayers Association'.
>>>"The one area I know of which decidedly didn't want a subway for social/neighborhood reasons was Maspeth and environs."<<<
Paul, if it was a true subway, underground maybe they wouldn't have
squimed about it. The proposed section thru Maspeth was above ground.
:-) Sparky
>>>"The one area I know of which decidedly didn't want a subway for social/neighborhood reasons was Maspeth and environs."<<<
Paul, if it was a true subway, underground maybe they wouldn't have
squimed about it. The proposed section thru Maspeth was above ground
I don't want to unfairly target Maspeth or anywhere else--it was just the only place that comes to mind where some residents said to me directly: "we don't want a subway because it would change the neighborhood."
Different times have different motives, too. That was in the early '70s, near the end of the Lindsay era, when lots of people were paranoid about social change and the City's spiralinf decline, whcih culminated in the fiscal crisis.
Paul,
I'll agree with you about the seventies, "Maspethites"
not wanting a subway for fear of changing the neighborhood.
Maspeth, even with the LIE bisecting it, it more suburban than urban even to this day.
My reference was to the 2nd IND, which would have divided Maspeth
with an overhead transit line in the thirties or forties,
way before the LIE.
:-) Sparky
My reference was to the 2nd IND, which would have divided Maspeth
with an overhead transit line in the thirties or forties,
way before the LIE
What roads was the el through Maspeth supposed to take?
>>>"What roads was the el through Maspeth supposed to take?"<<<
I do not know exactly, where my maps are at present. But off the
top of my head, 65th Place and curving southward onto Fresh Pond Rd.
come to mind.
:-) Sparky
The intersection of Flatbush andU was a country crossroads in 1951
I vaguely remember this intersection before Kings Plaza was built. There still wasn't that much there.
--Mark
Kings Plaza has completely changed Flatbush & Ave U. There's the mall itself which dominates the intersection, then there's the Wiz store, and the new Home Depot opening at a nearby strip mall west of the intersection.
The traffic there is horrendous and five bus routes (six if you count the Q35, which passes through to Jacob Riis Park) terminate there.
A subway terminal for any future Utica and Flatbush extensions here would definitely ease the congestion.
By the way I think a better Flatbush Avenue extension can be made by creating a spur from the Prospect Park station of the Brighton Line.
By the way I think a better Flatbush Avenue extension can be made by creating a spur from the Prospect Park station of the Brighton Line.
That would be a more attractive service, but you would be adding another line to just two tracks north of Prospect Park, so doesn't seem like that could fly.
Hmmm ... of course, if we restore the Franklin L:ne to two tracks, and rebuild the Fulton L over the Brooklyn Bridge and connect it into Chambers Street like it was planned in BMT days, we could probably add the service, no problem.
I'll have to write Mayor Mike about that! What do you think he'll say? :-)
He'll probably pass it on to the MTA who'll put it on the back burner for the next eighty years :-)
I remember a plan to extend and merge the Franklin shuttle to the G line between Classon and Bedford-Nostrand. That would make the G a genuine Cross-town line.
-Alex V.
When asked about it at DCP, I said if City Planning wanted to propose a fantasy for political purposes, it should be up Utica and through Bed-Stuy to hook into the Canarsie Line, which could handle more trains. You'd have transfers to the IRT at Eastern Pkwy, and could use the IND second system shell at Utica Avenue.
"By the way I think a better Flatbush Avenue extension can be made by creating a spur from the Prospect Park station of the Brighton Line. "
In theory this looks doable, but it is not, for there is no xs capacity through dekalb, across the bridge or up boradway.
So GUESS AGAIN!
Or check out my 23rd Street Subway for ideas.
Elias
The 1968 MTA "Grand Plan" definitely had Nostrand and Utica Avenue routes included. I heard that this was to give the plan "balance." The Second Avenue subway and Queens Super-Express were higher priorites, but something had to be offered to get political acceptence in Brooklyn.
They only get one fare with transfers.
Not until "One City, One Fare." They got a full fare on the Nostrand, Flatbush or other bus, and another full fare on the subway, except for a brief period from 1948 to 1951 or so, when there was a reduced fare paid transfer.
Currently, buses also have higher average operating costs per passenger trip.
If a Nostrand extension were to built today, the biggest NIMBY of all would the proprietors of the Auto Mall between Avenue M and N.
-Alex V.
Oh I wish it would. Wish it would...
The gridlock in the Garden City-Roosevelt Field area (aka the Hub) is severe at all times. And although NIMBY's around my area would probably kill me for saying this, but a Northern Blvd subway would be a great idea. Going from Manhasset along Northern Blvd into Flushing, perhaps joining the Queens IND somehwere.
I did design a BAHN layout awhile back with a Nassau county transit system. I believe it is stored somewhere on this site.
I did design a BAHN layout awhile back with a Nassau county transit system. I believe it is stored somewhere on this site.
What's the file called?
I think it's called LIRT (for Long Island Rapid Transit).
Most of the gridlock in Nassau County comes from intracounty traffic.
People headed to NYC are already on the LIRR or LIE. What is needed is good service where the gridlocks are. This means serving the business centers of Nassau County from the outlying areas of Nassau County, and doing so in such a way as it is more attractive than using a car.
Remember, when the NYC subways were being built, the competition was a HORSE!
Perhaps I will try to draw such a map. I tried to make one based on streetcars, but canned that idea. It was still stuck in the Gridlock.
Elias
I don't understand they they don't spend more time on public transit in Nassau. A few years ago there was talk of making a transit hub around Roosevelt Field. The Central Branch would be perfect for this. In addition there is an unused spur that comes off the Central Branch and runs right near Roosevelt Mall. It crosses Zackendorf (spelling?) Blvd right around where the Meadowbrood exits are. What was this spur, who owns it, and wouldn't it make sense to use it for rail transportation, along with the Central Branch?
>> In addition there is an unused spur that comes off the Central Branch and runs right near Roosevelt Mall. It crosses Zeckendorf (spelling?) Blvd right around where the Meadowbrood exits are. What was this spur, who owns it, and wouldn't it make sense to use it for rail transportation, along with the Central Branch? <<
Until a year or two ago this freight siding (complete with parkway overpass) was still nominally active. However, recent construction in the Garden City freight yard appears to have severed the tracks at Stewart Ave. I doubt that it actually has been used in quite some time. If it is going to be used for anything, folks had better start yelling now before it's too late.
Hmmm, sounds like I might have to dust off my EA, Network and HAT system maps....
wayne
You're right.
In Hong Kong, the subway system is fairly interwined with the commuter rail system, and both pretty much complement each other. If one wanted to get from Chek Lap Kok International Airport to Sheung Shui, one takes the Airport Express to Tsing Yi, transfer to the Tung Chung Line and ride that to Lai King, then the Tsuen Wan Line to Prince Edward, Kwun Tong Line to Kowloon Tong, and then the KCR East Rail up to Sheung Shui. Both systems are pretty interconnected, and I think that trip is only about...let's see...about an hour and fifteen, give or take a quarter of an hour or so.
From all of the horror stories I've heard from all around the 'Net, Jamaica is pretty much a bleeping nightmare. I think subway service is needed out in Nassau...Esp. now with the Islanders returning to better days (Only the heavens know how long THAT will last...) I think it would be a good idea to supplement LIRR service with subway.
Either that, or the LIRR has to have better connections with the subway. How they can do that, is something that the TA should figure out.
-J!
"Either that, or the LIRR has to have better connections with the subway"
People from the Island don't want to get onto the subway until they are in Manhattan.
Now I could see feeder lines trying to bring LI passengers to Hicksville or Freeport for a connection with the LIRR.
Elias
The Nassau county subway definately needs to focus on intra-county travel. Getting people to LIRR and shopping areas, with major terminals for lines in Roosevelt Field and major LIRR stations such as Great Neck, Mineola, Hicksville,etc.
The only idea I have heard (and it failed) was a hub light rail or people mover. It would have been in a loop between Roosevelt Field and Westbury. But it would have done nothing to aleviate congestion in that area as most traffic is going to or leaving the area. You have to get people to leave the car at home, something LI'ers strongly protest.
>> You have to get people to leave the car at home, something LI'ers strongly protest. <<
It is partly a chicken and egg problem. One reason for the protest is precisely the lack of alternatives. As bad as car travel is, it is still faster and more convenient than the alternatives. For example, we have virtually NO north-south train service. The LIRR is focused heavily on Manhattan trips. Everything else is just incidental.
The N4 bus takes me 40-45 minutes to get from Baldwin to Jamaica. I can drive to Jamaica in significantly less time even with traffic (but missing that free transfer bugs me). Other bus/RR trips within Nassau and Suffolk are equally difficult and time-consuming.
Build the reasonable alternatives and "they will come."
An N4 bus? Boy do I like the sound of that. I don't ride busses, but when I get to New York I am going to try that one out. Can you guess why? Another quiz and easier, I think, than the last one.
>> An N4 bus? Boy do I like the sound of that. I don't ride busses, but when I get to New York I am going to try that one out. Can you guess why? Another quiz and easier, I think, than the last one. <<
Take the E, J, or Z to Jamaica Center; it leaves from Archer Avenue and it's a free transfer with MetroCard. Plan on taking it at least to the Nassau border because eastbound Nassau buses do not discharge passengers in Queens. Of course, I'd like the sound of a Merrick Blvd. subway even better. :)
http://www.mta.info/libus/pdf/n4.pdf
Fred is referring to the use of the number 4. That's his favorite number from the days when the Duke of Flatbush wore it.
Say Fred, what did you think of Carl Furillo?
When I lived in Levittown, I used to occassionally take the LIRR between Hicksville and Port Jefferson to visit my girlfriend (now my wife) in Miller Place. (Tiny town east of Port Jeff.) It worked allright. For one thing, it was a beautiful ride. But I don't think I would have done it if I'd had a car.
:-) Andrew
Thanks J. I will now rest my case and be convinced that on this one I am right on the mark.
Hi; have you lived in Hong Komg for a long time?seems your are very familous with the transporation system in Hong Kong...
If your are from Hong Kong, email me, thx
Yeah, I have. I live in Canada tho, but I still keep up.
e-mail me at survivor_globie@hotmail.com if you wish to speak to me.
-J!
It's a nice idea for Long Islanders, but it comes at the expense of Queens passengers. Imagine the E or F train extended out to Nassau along Hempstead Turnpike to Hempstead. The trains would be filled before they hit the city line.
I always thought the LIRR should extend the Belmont Park line as a subway underneath Hempstead Turnpike with stops in Elmont, Franklin Square, West Hempstead, Hempstead, Nassau Colesium, East Meadow, Levittown and then hook in with the Ronk. Branch.
Then you could probably dump the West Hempstead branch and terminate the Hempstead branch at Garden City (or for the really aggressive minded extend east from Garden City along the old ROW. You could then use the WH and Hemp. ROW's for the oft-discussed light rail.
CG
>> It's a nice idea for Long Islanders, but it comes at the expense of Queens passengers. Imagine the E or F train extended out to Nassau along Hempstead Turnpike to Hempstead. The trains would be filled before they hit the city line. <<
That's assuming that it would be used by Manhattan commuters. I think Hempstead Turnpike needs a subway for local traffic (people traveling within Nassau or eastern Queens). The N6 bus is overcrowded and subject to "bunching." Short of a subway, little can be done about that. I suspect that most Manhattan commuters would continue to use the railroad even though it would be more expensive.
Charles G may have a point. It's possible that an E or F extension may cause the train to be at least half capacity by the time it reaches Queens. But your point is taken as well, and is more like to occur. Since Nassau is much further east than Manhattan, county residents would primarily use a subway extension to travel within the county. Only residents that live immediately east of the county line would likely ride an F train into Manhattan. Surburban subway extensions would work best if they are run near the commuter lines and provide frequent transfer to LIRR stations, so that LIRR riders could transfer to the nearest subway station to complete their trip home or vice versa, therefore providing the incentive to leave the cars at home, and only drive when they have a desire to, not because they have to. There may be some commuters that take the subway into the county, to a convenient stop, and drive the rest of the way to home or vice versa from there, but there would have to be sufficient park and ride facilities to accommodate that.
I have been working on subway expansion plan for over a year now, and I do have trains serving Nassau County to supplement the LIRR and Nassau buses. I even have subway route jointly operated with the LIRR Montauk line along the Montauk's ROW!
[There may be some commuters that take the subway into the county, to a convenient stop, and drive the rest of the way to home or vice versa from there, but there would have to be sufficient park and ride facilities to accommodate that.]
A good example of a subway line that goes to the 'burbs would be Boston's Red Line that was extended to Braintree which is near Brookline. They give a good alternative to driving as there are large and modern Park-n-Ride facilities on the route.
We could definitely use something like that here, but politics and money are always an issue which prevents these needed transit improvements.
When it happens, I own the domain name lisubway.org. :)
Sea Beach Fred ... would increased LIRR service be accepted as an alternative given that there wouldn't be any construction to more tightly integrate the LIRR & NYC Subway anytime soon?
--Mark
If it would ease congestion and the support of those who are tired of fighting gridlock, then yes. You would be more up to date on that than I am but it appears that as of now the LIRR isn't getting the job done. We that problem in the suburbs out here. Sometimes I dread getting on the freeways.
If it would ease congestion and the support of those who are tired of fighting gridlock, then yes. You would be more up to date on that than I am but it appears that as of now the LIRR isn't getting the job done. We that problem in the suburbs out here. Sometimes I dread getting on the freeways.
"We that problem in the suburbs out here. Sometimes I dread getting on the freeways. "
Thats good, because we don't *have* "freeways" in New York City! : )
I agree, Fred, a subway to Nassau County would alleviate some of the traffic congestion. Unfortunately, the it is something the whole county needs to complain about--not just a handful of people, otherwise the majority of the populace, being NIMBYS, would never allow this to happen. However, main throughfares like Northern Blvd./North Hempstead Tnpk., Jericho Tnpk., Old Country Road and Sunrise Highway or Merrick Road would be perfect for eastern extensions of current lines or new routes entirely.
X-Train, Sunrise Highway and the Jericho Turnpike would seem to me to be the perfect routes for subway extention and those two roads were what I was thinking of, along with the LIE. Why people would be against such a thing when it could relieve congestions is beyond me.
The people riding on those roads are not going to NYC.
Most are going shopping, and in the rest of the world that means taking your car to the mall.
Much of that traffic is also truck traffic. Traffic that is not permitted onto the parkways.
With the construction of more LIRR terminals in NYC, the LIRR can up its capacity to match that found on the subways.
Intra county transit is needed.
Elias
Those same extensions can also serve the purpose of intra county travel.
A Northern Blvd. line would be a good choice for a subway to Nassau line, serving the north region of the county. A Jericho turnpike line would serve the middle region and a Sunrise Highway line would serve the southern region. these are all east-west routings. All that's needed are a couple of north-south routes.
They already *have* a Sunrise Highway Route... It is called the LIRR.
You will need much more than "a few" north south routes according to my calculations. People go east and west to work, and north and south for shopping and other business.
Elias
True, but the extension would provide for more local stations and work in conjunction with the LIRR Montauk line, providing transfers between the two lines.
Yeah, more east-west routes are not really needed, you need more north south routes. I think Light Rail would be a better option than the the subway extensions for Nassau County. Something like a cross between the LIRR and the subway.
I was thinking about getting on the Canarsie line one day on the weekend and getting some photos of the few remainding R-40's. If not maybe one day after work. The best elevated station for photos I think is Atlantic Ave because you can pretty much see whats coming from the next station south (Not to mention the great 'S' curve). Anyone want to join?
I'm interested.
Ok. Im pretty flexible on the weekends. I work a basic 9-5. So E-Mail me personally and we will talk
When I came here in January I noticed everyone wanted only B, D, F and N service to Coney Island. Why is that? In 2004 the Southside is going to need something extra than the N with B and D service on the North Side. If B and D service runs fulltime and N service runs part time on the bridge then It would be this again. Can someone please explain to me the love of only one Broadway Service?
i would think that the Q would remain on Broadway and run over the bridge.and lets not forget the W,who knows whats gonna happen with that train,
The Q used to go over the bridge with the N, so I assume it will again when the bridge fully opens.
Don't assume anything. Just about any service configuration that's physically possible using the existing structures and switches is in the running at the moment.
David
True, but assuming the B/D and N/Q will all operate via the bridge when it's fully operational is quite safe. Absolutley no other possible routing makes more sense.
Again: no assumption is safe where the Manhattan Bridge post-2004 is concerned. Don't assume a routing, and don't assume a route letter. Nothing has been determined yet, and we're two years away.
David
BTW, I wasn't issuing orders, which I have no right to do. I'm simply giving advice, since any posts about what's "going" to happen on Subdivision "B" post-2004 are sheer speculation, whether they're labeled as such or not.
David
The process of making reasonable assumptions from known information is part of everyday life as well as part of the scientific method.
There are various known facts that lead to reasonable assumptions about the train service:
- The track pattern east of DeKalb allows for the least switching either if all 4th Ave locals go into the tunnel and all Brighton trains go over the bridge, or vice versa.
- The DeKalb bypass track is necessary to avoid congestion there, and is reached from the 4th Ave express track on the east and the bridge on the west.
- Brighton has more traffic than West End, which has more traffic than either Sea Beach or Bay Ridge.
- The majority (over 60%, probably 75-80%) of S Brooklyn riders in the morning rush want to get to midtown.
- NYCT likes to have trains terminate near a yard at at least one end of the route for operational simplicity and cost savings, and there isn't one at Astoria or 95th St.
[The process of making reasonable assumptions from known information is part of everyday life as well as part of the scientific method.]
Actually, "assumptions" are INPUTS to the scientific method, not outputs. Once data are collected and analyzed, the scientist makes "inferences" (i.e. draws conclusions).
Anyway, David's point is this: While many SubTalkers are VERY knowledgeable about the workings of the subway system, and can run circles around Transit's "planners," it is still those "planners" who develop the service plans (or sets of alternatives) and it is still Transit's senior management who make the decisions. Whatever hasn't come out of that process is, by definition, pure speculation.
Well, I guess the Q and the R could be the check. When the Q's running on the bridge, R is in the tunnel. When Q's out, R runs on the bridge with N. And maybe the W. I dunno.
As I've said before, we can talk about it until the cows come home, but everything is up to the NYCTA.
-J!
And while the R is on the bridge, lower manhattan is served by... ?
Poor forgotten local stops.
Waitaminute...lemme back up here...
W and R to tunnel.
Q and N to bridge.
Perfect, yes?
-J!
P.S. Did I forget anything?
In a perfect world, yes.
Almost. With the resumption of B service, the W in Brookln would be redundant. My guess is the W runs in Queens & Manhattan only post 2004.
Perfection is the two lines to a track system, which is basically what most people are coming up with:
B D - 6 av express / Br
F (V?) - 6 av local
Q N - Broadway Exp / Br
R W - Broadway Local
M R - Montague Tunnel
Sir, you've taken the words right out of my mouth. Now that's where that went!
-J!
There won't be only one service. If the full bridge is open, the B/D will run on the north side and the N/Q will run on the south side.
Again: It's incorrect to say that a given route (D, N, whatever) WILL run on the Manhattan Bridge post-2004. Everything's up for grabs right now, and I do mean EVERYthing.
David
If you go to the MTH site, it looks as though the two-car add-on for the R-17 O-gauge subway set has been cancelled.
I wonder whether the interest in subway models has peaked?
Please be advised theres enough R 62As to make up 7 # 7 trains. R 62As 1706-1710 have arrived to Corona yard last night (Wed. night.)
They've been very busy over at Corona Yard these days. Just the other night, they did a Corona/207 transfer. I heard it took about 8 hours just to get 11 cars over there.
I was just looking at the NEC timetable in preparation for my NYC Trip tomorrow and I noticed that NJT runs 4 Super Express Trains that only stop at Princeton Jct. and Trenton. My question is why don't they also stop them at Hamelton? Holy crap, a WHOLE ENTIRE TRAIN for TWO stops? Does this make sence with like the 2nd most popular stop inbetween the other two stops? Its not like they are running on the express track or anything. Does anyone know the rationale for this?
I think you may be misreading the schedule. NJT lists the Amtrak Clockers in their schedules -- check the train numbers, in the AM the train numbers are A622, A624, A628 and A640. All of the NJT trains from Trenton stop at Hamilton -- at least in the AM rush.
Is Hamilton really the second most popular station? I'd have thought Metropark would be 2nd after Princeton Jct. I would have guessed Hamilton was much further down.
CG
Actually, based on personal observation, I would say that Metuchen rather than Metropark is the second busiest station.
John
I think you may be misreading the schedule. NJT lists the Amtrak Clockers in their schedules -- check the train numbers, in the AM the train numbers are A622, A624, A628 and A640. All of the NJT trains from Trenton stop at Hamilton -- at least in the AM rush.
No. He was reading the schedule correctly. NJT has some "super express" trains n/b of its own, but only ONE of them stops at Princeton Jct. and Newark. The others stop also at New Brunswick. Edison, Metuchen, Metropark sporadically.
In total, NJT has about 5 or 6 "special express" trains in the morning.
"No. He was reading the schedule correctly..."
Wait, now I think you're both reading the schedule incorrectly. I just double checked the schedule, and I couldn't find a single NJT train -- northbound or southbound -- that stops at Trenton and doesn't stop at Hamilton.
Or am I missing something?
CG
Charles, you are correct. Only those Amtrak trains listed bypass Hamilton. Maybe they were reading an "employee timetable", where there are several "X" trains that deadhead without passengers between New York and Trenton.
I was looking here. OK, he was right in reading the AMTRAK schedules but if he prefers, NJT has some "super express" trains that stop at Hamilton also in the morning. Besides, he noted that his trip to NYC would be on SATURDAY, as there are no express trains n/b (only 3 trains and they only skip 3 stops) on SATURDAY, unless if he prefers AMTRAK.
Well, people in N. Jersey have (hypothetically) more choices, with more stops in less area. So the concentration is spread out. Hamilton covers (much) more area than the northern stops (add on the fact that NJersietes can use the LB, or RV branches!)
Those "super express trains" are Amtrak Clockers from Philly, which are subsidized by NJT. By legal contract, Amtrak cannot stop at Hamilton.
Yeah, I noticed this today at Hamelton. The old Super Express trains added a stop at Jersey Ave. which threw me.
Jersey Mike:
The 6:33 always stopped at Jersey Avenue. This is the train that I normally take home from work.
The 6:11, when made into a Trenton Express, stopped at Jersey Avenue.
I was surprised when the new timetables were issued and the 5:05 - the original Trenton Express, stopped at Jersey Avenue. Now, I can leave the office at 4:45 and be home before 6:00 - if everything runs correct - a big if.
NJT has no express trains n/b on weekends except for the 10:00, 11:00, and 12:00 departures from Trenton, and they skip Rahway, Linden, and Elizabeth. These are taken care of by the NJCL and NEC trains running half an hour ahead or before the express trains.
Express trains s/b depart NY at 4:03p, 5:03p, 5:59p, and 7:03p and they skip the same stops.
Going by my 9/30/01 NEC timetable, there are only three NJT trains (the A prefix to a train number indicates Amtrak operations, if I recall correctly) that skip Metropark. None of the trains skip either Hamilton or Princeton Junction.
Here's the timetable from NJT's website, if you can get it. It is a 400k pdf file. Scroll down to the timetable, click on the magnifying glass icon with the + in it on the toolbar, then click on the timetable to make it big enough to read. I see four trains that stop in trenton and not Hamilton; they are all Amtrak trains.
NJT NEC timetable
No need to download Adobe Acrobat Reader or wait for it to load!
Just visit Bob Scheurle's NJT Schedules Page and view the simple layout without the use of a software program.
The domain of the site (www.nj.com/njtransit) has schedules of every other NJT line as well as PATH, and supplemental information easily organized for NJT riders.
Does anyone know how to obtain information on the TA Management Program that is offered at Baruch? I've been to the Baruch and MTA websites trying to find information.
Information should be available on TENS, NYC Transit's intranet website. Look under Human Resources.
David
Do you know what we out in the field have to do to find something that accesses TENS?
Nope...I've got it at my desk :-)
No terminals in the crew rooms? I know PS248 has one on the first floor...
David
Terminals in the crew rooms? We have got to get you out of that office more often.
One of my regular crew rooms went for 4 weeks after the time change in April before the clock was changed (fixed). We kept threatening the Dispatcher with waiting until the official clock said it was time to go.
Well, if local 100's in the mood for a good pot stirring, those ARE computers in the 142's and 143's ... maybe some surfing while waiting for the homeball to clear. :)
All of the Line Superintendent's offices have TENS
While I'm on reasonable terms with two line Supt's, I'm not anywhere near their offices during the course of the day.
The info is also available at 130 Livingston St, On the first floor in the training area (not the RTO training center). There's also a program at John Jay College.
The NYCT Employee Newsletter, "At Your Service", which sugar coats every article and news item they print, published a very interesting yet uncharacteristic item in their publication. In quoting a consultant describing the need for vision in planning the City's next great subway project: "The grandparents have not been born whose grandchildren will ride the 2nd Ave. Subway."
Considering the events of the last 50 years probably not.Seemed pulling the plug from it in the 1950's doomed it forever. I wish I were wrong.
Last night I was on my way home and rode R142A car 7321. When I entered the car I got the feeling that something was missing. I looked up and one of the strip maps was missing. Whether it was removed on purpose or stolen I don't know (I'll keep an eye on ebay).
Anyway I can finally truely answer one of the questions that has been asked here many times (or was it on Harry's place?). How does the train system know how many LEDs should be lit for the route.
The answer is : It is programmed into the route settings.
The area behind the strip map is rather simple. There are 64 (count 'em) individual LED lights available to represent stations.
[Just FYI: Pelham Bay Park is the 14th LED from the left.] They extend from a point from the middle of one direction arrow to the middle of the other. And ust FYI: Pelham Bay Park is the 14th LED from the left.
The direction arrows are made up individual LEDs as well.
There are no bar code readers or anything that would do a set up based on the strip map itself.
There are no bar code readers or anything that would do a set up based on the strip map itself.
Which would account for the odd readings on the 5 running with 2 strip maps I rode a few days ago.
First, let me say it's great to have SubTalk/BusTalk back. Now my question; I am considering applying for the Assistant Conductors position at Metro North and Long Island Rail Road. As I was reading the descriptions, I noticed that Metro North stated that some assignments may be Extra List assignments. I don't know much about the Extra Lists (asside from the fact that your an extra and assignments vary), and am curious to know the following:
1.) If I am assigned to Extra List duties, will I eventually have a permanent assignment, or pick an assignment like at NYCT?
2.) Are you paid a set amount or only paid for time you actually worked?
If any other information/pointers can be given it would be appreciated.
Thanks in Advance for the answers,
Tony
If you pick Extra, basically you will work a differnt job each day for 5 days a week.
One day you'll get a good job.
The next day maybe a bad one.
The day after that you might be sitting around the tower (WAA) for 8 hours hoping a job doesn't come up 15 minutes before you're supposed to go home. In that case you might end up working 16 hours that day.
You will get paid for at least 40 Hours a week. Not counting OT and boost time.
Eventually you'll be able to pick an assignment 5 days a week. Starting here and ending there for 5 days a week. But for the first year expect to be working extra. You might hear about Extra Extra. Somebody else will have to explain that one to you.
I dont know about tower or RTO, but for stations extra extra is for people whose picked job is temporarily unavailable- ie Cortlandt BMT or wnds before the end of the pick ie-gate job at Coney island or your booth will close permanently.
The main difference is that extra extras cannot get holddown jobs since you picked a job such as Cortlandt BMT.
Working a 16 hour day would violate Federal Hours of Service Laws.
He should thank his lucky stars that he isn't working for a freight railroad. New hires are not guarenteed days off and can frequently work 12 hours days for weeks on end. Compared to that, the LIRR extra board is a paragon of stability.
BTW, the Extra Board is actually preferred by some railroaders. If you take all the LIRR jobs and then have people pick them, the last job picked will be the job rejected by every other LIRR worker. You're so far down the list you don't even get the "privillage" of picking and will work some good jobs and some bad jobs. However, this is preferable to the poor sucker who had to pick the "worst" LIRR job and gets a bad job 5 days a week.
Look at this regarding the LIRR Extra list, think of the massive hassle of being on call 24 hours a day, and having to report (one day) to Ronkonkoma, next day Morris Park, next day Speonk, and the next day after Port Washington, next day West Side railyard, and the next Long Beach, especially if the Extra guy doesn't have a car. I'd rather have a "bad" job, but have stability of knowing where I am going every day, when I start and when I finish, not to mention knowing all the time what tour I work, rather than take the Grand Tour of the LIRR system ANY tour the of day, ANY reporting location!!
I mean being formerly an Extra list conductor here in NYCT, I know the hassles of the run around, and that's within the 4 boroughs NYCT serves. Just imagine the run around from Port Jeff, to Far Rockaway, to Babylon, to Flatbush Avenue, to Hempstead, and so on....while being on call 24 hours a day!! That's stressing and tiring!!
I don't know how the extra lists on the LIRR work, but New Jersey Transit has more than one extra list for trainmen:
1) New York List: handles jobs that sign up in New York, Raritan, and County Yard
2) Trenton List: handles jobs that sign up in Trenton and Atlantic City
3)Long Branch List: handles jobs that sign up in Long Branch and Bay Head.
4) Hoboken List: handles jobs that sign up anywhere on the Hoboken Division (Hoboken, Dover, Port Morris, Suffern, Port Jervis, Spring Valley, Gladstone).
Each of those lists have one list for brakemen and one list for conductors. There are also "utility" lists for yard jobs, those are usually held by the oldtimers. Of course, when it gets busy, certain lists may become "exhausted", and people are called from one list to work at a location from another list. Also, if you are called to work a job that originates anywhere besides what the name of your list is, you will be paid for deadhead time and mileage as well. There are tables printed that determine the maximum time and mileage you can claim.
I am thinking also about joining NJ Transit, and applying there. Those extra lists sound much easier to manage, especially the NY list.
That Hoboken List seems crazy. Could you theoretically be called to work at Hoboken one day and Port Jervis the next?
That's right! However, usually you can make tons of money by being called to Port Jervis. First off, the jobs that sign up in Port Jervis are big money (a lot of overtime) jobs held by high seniority guys. If any of those guys calls in sick or takes personal or vacation time, that's when a list guy will be called. Secondly, the deadhead and mileage that is also paid is based on the rail mileage and time from Hoboken. From the Hoboken List, you would be paid 4 hours round trip deadhead plus 190 round trip miles at approx. 28 cents per mile to go to Port Jervis. All of that PLUS the earnings of the assignment.
That is probably one reason why those guys get paid a hell of a lot more money than us. When those guys say they pay their dues, they certainly do!
For question #1:
When you are assigned Extra with the LIRR/Metro North (to be listed as LIRR for the rest of the post), you will not have a set tour of duty as you would with the TA. After you finish your tour, the LIRR crew office can call you exactly 8 hours after your clear to give you your next assignment. When the LIRR calls, you have 3 hours to get there whether the trains are running out there or not, so you better have a car.
Bottom line, while you're on the LIRR extra list, you won't have much of a life and you are eligible to work all 3 tours in the same week. You will make a bucketfull of $$$ though for your troubles.
Best thing to do is when a chance arises, pick a straight assignment so that you can "freeze" your schedule.
For question 2:
You are paid the full hourly rate for as long as you are on duty.
Is that why you didn't go to the LIRR Z-Boy?? Couldn't handle that?? Let's say this, once I have acquired a little more experience here in NYCT, I plan to throw my hat in the ring for LIRR or for Metro North. I bet I will still make a life for myself working there, and reap the benefits of the good pay!! Everyone under the sun said to me when I joined on as a conductor here "Ohhhh if you work PMs you won't have a life, if you work this tour, that tour, this line, that line, this job, that job you won't have a life!!". Guess what I now do the PMs and very much so have a life, hell I have more time to myself and for my woman now then I did AMs, not to mention the 4 digit checks due to all the night differentials and overtime. When I get into LIRR or Metro North, Z-Boy watch me still have a personal life!! Time will tell!! (Z-Boy maybe if you were good like me you'd be in LIRR and could handle it lol :-) j/k) As for the vehicle thing, I am working on that already, so the extra list commute in the LIRR won't be a problem at all.
We have 4 digit checks because we get paid every 2 weeks. If we got paid weekly, those checks would be far far short of 4 digits!
Hey, if you can handle the LIRR/MNCR, then go for it.
Me? No shot. I've got 5 weeks vacation coming up in a few years (something that you can't get with LIRR/MNCR), and hopefully I'll be a Dispatcher soon. I'd have to be out of my mind to consider leaving now.
You're on the list for TD!!!! Congrats!!! If you come to the A division, please give me a drop. :):)
I was on car #6478 on the #2 last night and noticed that the place (interior side of the LED) where that whale drawing usually is was bare. Are those only on certain R142's. It's the 1st time I noticed it missing.
BTW- The space looked very blank and very white, an inviting canvas for vandalism. Hopefully the TA will place something there.
Most R142s do not have artwork, although some do. All R142As do.
I wish they would have more than just one picture on the system at a time, it would make it more interesting if the had 3 at a time.
By now, most R-142's do have the artwork. The first batch to arrive didn't; I think all of the rest did.
(Does anyone else find it a bit odd to refer to a mass-produced panel as "artwork"?)
Okau, the gloves are off, or thrown at the feet of the Congress. So long as we are pretending citizen input makes a difference, write your representatives.
He was riding on top of a CSX freight car and waved to friends, unintentionally touching the wire.
He's in critical condition.
brief Inquirer story
He was riding on top of a CSX freight car and waved to friends, unintentionally touching the wire.
He's in critical condition.
The ghost of Charles Darwin is waiting, in great anticipation.
Watch it Peter. Members of the Axis of Morality are lurking amongst us. Any mention of "Darwin" can bring a stern rebuke.
Ok, then the ghost of the recently departed Stephen Jay Gould is waiting for him...
Mark
Who is Stephen Jay Gould? Inquiring mimes (sorry selkirk) need to know.
Peace,
ANDEE
Stephen Jay Gould was an important paleontologist and evolutionary biologist. He's known for helping develop the idea of "punctuated equilibrium," the theory that living things may stay unchanged for eons, then undergo periods of rapid evolutionary change due to some sudden change in environmental conditions, like an asteroid slamming into the earth, or the onset of an ice age. He was also a well-known populizer of science, and was on one episode of The Simpsons.
Gould passed away a few weeks ago at the age of 60.
Mark
Thank You,
Peace,
ANDEE
One other fact about this eloquent advocate of baseball and rationality: he was a New Yorker. From Queens.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Hew, I *like* Darwin and his awards. He makes a swell conductor. (Almost as good as the SEPTA catenary!)
The heck with the axis of whatever.... exercise your foist amendment rites! : )
Elias
Well he didn't pee on the overhead at least...
Heh... "Hey, watch this!"
-- David
Chicago, IL
As Jeff Foxworthy said, "If your last words are, 'Hey fellas, watch this," you just might be a redneck."
Mark
>>>... pee on the overhead ...<<<<
Now THERE's something I would like to see...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Wrong board. :)
lol
Well he didn't pee on the overhead at least...
Oh no not another P train thread...
Too bad that he didn't, we could have finally known what happens to someone peeing on the third rail. Remember those long "Peeing on the third rail threads"?
Most likely nothing will happen because there is no continuity from third rail, up the pee through the **** and down his feet, through his shoes to the ground because his shoes won't conduct the electricity to the ground (like birds sitting on wires).
He musta forgot boxcars aren't wood anymore.
Can we anticipate a lawsuit from his family about lack of warning signs ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Excuse me a second...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! WHAT A DORKHEAD!
Just one more moment...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! WHAT A MORON!
Okay, I'm fine now. :)
-J!
I agree with you. How can anybody be so stupid to ride on top of a train to begin with? Then he puts his hands up in the air!
Chuck
How many volts was the wire carrying?
I believe that all SEPTA lines operate off the same overhead voltage as the NEC; assuming that's the case, it's 11.5 kilovolts.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've always wondered, what is the Wattage, or Ampereage of the NEC, I mean if it's 11000 volts, but zero amps, then i should be able to play on the wires like a jungle gym, right? Voltage is nothing without Amperage to back it up.
Voltage is nothing without Amperage to back it up.
Correct. Unfortunately, I don't know what the amperage on the NEC is, but suffice it to say it must be considerable!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well each track in each mainline transformer section can handle at least 16,000 hp at 11.5kv before the substation overloads. It might be slightly more or less. The only number I have is that two GG-1's working under maxium load would tend to blow out substations.
Right. I've got the same info but I don't know how to translate that into amps (Jeff Hakner, are you reading this?).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Power = I^2 R or I V
---
Power = I^2 R or I V
---
Yes, but I wouldn't use either of those in this situation. It's easier for many reasons to use an Ohmmeter to measure someone's R rather than connect them to a live Septa wire and measure the resulting I. So it's better to use P=V^2/R since you know the line voltage and you can easily and safely measure a person's resistance.
The three simple formulas for determining the power are P=IV, P=RI^2 and P=V^2/R.
That's DC, bro ... gets funkier with AC ... sines, cosines, and all. The formula is more properly "electron flow + you = dead." :)
Oh, I know... You should see what they try to get away with in physics classes here - and at the university level no less... But it is a handy approximation if nothing else.
-Robert King
Well, I suppose I should have gotten out the handy little reference card that was given to me by University of Toronto's department of electrical engineering which has all the correct formulas on it. But I go to York (We specialize in 11 week TA strikes) so any kind of approximation will do.
-Robert King
Dat's OK ... this is subtalk. No "proff" needed and speculation is your FRIEND! Heh. Shall we even bother with nodal analysis? Nah. But that was one of the nice things about DC rail systems, you could do the math in your head. :)
That's DC, bro ... gets funkier with AC ... sines, cosines, and all.
Now you've gone off on a tangent!
Owwww! Owwwww! Owwwww! An Arcsine across your face for that one. :)
Can we sum this all nicely into a handy dandy theorem? :) Oh wait, or was it formula?
-J!
Juice + Darwin = Watts for tots ... howzzat? :)
Anyway, it dosen't matter how many volts or amps there are, its the watts that kills you. This guy briefly became the equivalent of a 11904000 Watt light bulb. No matter how you say it...OUCH!
---
Anyway, it dosen't matter how many volts or amps there are, its the watts that kills you.
---
Is there anybody else here having a good laugh at this statement?
-Robert King
Did you ever see the movie "Running Scared"? Billy Crystal & Greorgy Hines have a taxicab riding the rails on the Chicago EL. One of them comments about the third rail and finally he says "It's not the volts that will kill you, it's the amps"
Does anybody remember that?
Chuck
"Is there anybody else here having a good laugh at this statement? "
Heheheheeee.............
Watt do you think.
Elias
Nobody here but us meter readers. :)
Why is this funny? Cooking yourself takes work. No work, no fried idiot. Current and pressure are both required to zap someone. Too little or either and nothing happens.
"Current and pressure are both required to zap someone."
Exactly. That is watt was so funny!
Volts = Current
Pressure = Amps
So we were wondering watt watts has to do with it!
: ) Elias
This theory needs some lab time ... any volunteers? :)
I know a perfect test lab! :)
-J!
Please ... not a damned Labatts brauhaus ... now an Arctic Red on the other hand ... maybe. Better yet, two-fisted. :)
Who cares about watts, volts and amps anyways? It's all irrelevent. What you really need to look at is the number of Coulombs that travel through the circuit per unit time and the amount of work done to move each electron in the electric field. Now I have all the formulas for this in a book upstairs - it all wouldn't fit on the U of T pocket card.
-Robert King
Let's face it, people have been electruted by small appliances in the home, which use far less volts (110 I think) than a DC third rail or AC overhead catenary.
If the conditions are right, i. e. you become the ground, you fry.
Jim K.
Chicago
Thats why birds don't fry on exposed wire. Also thats why branford repairs it cantanery hot on insulated platforms.
Actually No. If there micro volts or micro amps nothing will happen. Also you might be intersted in a tesla transformer which allows you to conduct electricity at millions of volts without problems by alternating it till almost nothing moves.
The only thing you can know for sure is what the catanary is fused at. The current passing trough the person's body would depend on the path that the current took, and the resistance through that path. If, for example, the person was hot and sweaty (riding on top of that freight car) his body resistance might be a mere 10,000 ohms. Since I=E/R then 11,500 volts/10,000 ohms would yield 1.15 amperes - more than enough to do some serious damage to a human body.
Of course, the example is for a DC circuit and we're dealing with AC but you get the idea. One thing is for sure at 1 amp, 10 amps or even 100 amps, he wouldn't even be a blip on the board.
A color TV set has 25 kilovolts (or more) on the "red wire" to the ultor cap on a CRT. The amount of current at that voltage *IS* negligable, on the order of MICROamperes. It'll still kill you if conditions are just right. If there's voltage, your "meat resistance" will still flow a decent amount of current, even if you're not wet.
Suffice it to say, if the power's on, you're dead. It takes a spectacular degree of stupidity to ride on top of any trainset, to do so under wires is just ... well ... Darwinist.
Amperage is not determined by what is in the wire.
It is determined by the LOAD that you put on the circuit.
A 40 watt bulb draws so many amps.
A 100 watt bulb draws more amps.
A traction motor draws even more amps than that.
If you want to know how many watts the tracton motor requires, look at its specifications sheet.
If you want to know how many amps a stupid man draws while standing on top of a box car, well, it depends on the circuit.
Now in your house you have fuses (ok, so they are probably circuit breakers), and these are set to blow at a certain amperage. This protects the wires from over heating, With out the fuse to break the circuit at some reasonable number, the wires in your building become the limiting factor, and when these blow, you would need to call the fire department.
But catenary wires are a little different... if they over heat, they might melt or break, thus breaking the circuit, but they will not set your house on fire, because they are not located inside of your house. (Ie those wilers may be permitted to carry more amperage that what they might be rated for inside of your house.
At our abbey, we have many buildings on our property, we have our own poer poles, and our own transformers. Each building has main fuses rated at 250 or more amps each (three legs of course). BUT THE MAIN FUSES that connect us to the power grid are 100 AMP FUSES! The Fuses inside of the buildings are at 120 volts (per leg) and are protected at 250 (or more amps, who knows, I don't), and the wires are of very heavy guage.
But up on the transmission lines we have thin light weight wires, but they carry 4600 volts (at as I said less than 100 amps, since that is what the fuses are).... AND... (I know this because I watched MDU repace a fuse the last time it blew...) they used to be 40 amp fuses. No one knows why 40 amp fuses were in place on the main pole, probably because that was all the man had one day when it was fixed previously. Anyway his book for our property specified 100 amp fuses for that pole, and we have not had problems since.
But to make a short story long: Amperage is a property of the LOAD not a property of the LINE, although the line can be protected agains loads that exceed specifications.
Elias
You are on the right track up to a point. Assuming the figure of 11,000 volts is correct, there won't be any current flowing through them unless there is a completed circuit to the grounded return. The reason why you can't play with them is (unless you are electrically isolated from any return path) because as soon as you complete a circuit, it becomes an Ohm's law calculation with you as the resistance. If you measure your resistance with an Ohmmeter, the wire is at 11,000 volts and you short it across yourself to the ground, you can do these calculations to determine the power and current in the circuit you'd make:
Current (Amps) = 11,000 (Volts) / Your resistance (Ohms)
Power (Watts) = 11,000 (Volts) ^2 / Your resistance (Ohms)
-Robert King
He actually thought that it would be a good career move.. He had a life-long dream to become a conductor.
(did I hear a thud?)
No, but it definitely deserves a good Henny Youngman style "Barum-pum." :)
Cool! The juice is always good. So rocket scientist pulls aux bug from R142 carbody and drops in on floor into 'sweat puddle.' Sparks, smoke and flames...fire good. Train Dude, you got most of your crew back but please warn them EVERY safety meeting: higher temperatures and humidity means slick surfaces. Clean up after you spray Trizoil/penatrant/CRC or knock off grease chunks in the pits. Stuff burns like crazy mixed with water...it's a lot worse when your foot slips because of the slick conditions and you smash your leg. Becoming a 'conductor' is only temporary. CI Peter
Well, at least he survived.
Why do people do these things?
Well, I can't be held explaining why anyone would do this kind of thing, though I know one thing for certain. He was being a jackass while doing so!
Wow! And he may actually live to tell about it!
This is incredibly tragic. If he makes it, he's going to be visiting plastic surgeons, dermatologists and rehabilitation specialists probably for the rest of his life.
I don't wish this on anybody. The only consolation is that he will never do that again.
Would you leave LIRR Service Or Replace The Lines With Subway Service If Nassau & Suffok Counties Became Part Of NYC.
What kind of service do you envision? I don't imagine you're thinking of tearing up the LIRR trunks in Queens and Brooklyn. Or do you just mean fare and servcie adjustments which would have the railroad operate as a more subway-like operation?
I would leave all LIRR lines and just change them over to NYCTA Subway Service. and upgrade single track sections to double track sections.
NYCT could probably manage the commuter rail services better than the LIRR can. Of course, that's not saying much.
This is a very improbable. The LIRR is the way they all get into Manhattan. Extending subways into Nassau would entail new connections into Manhattan, which are unlikely.
Still, subway service extended along Northern Blvd, Jericho Turnpike, and something looping along Sunshine Highway and then north, with all lines going into a loop-the-loop around Roosevelt Field/Nassau Col would not go unused.
A more useful project, perhaps, would be a rationalization of the transfer points on the LIRR before enters the East River tubes. If one could funnel all the subways and all the commuter trains to a single facility, everyone would benefit immensely.
Giving up the notion that the LIRR is a real railroad, and switching most everything to subway-compatible service would also be a major plus.
A more useful project, perhaps, would be a rationalization of the transfer points on the LIRR before enters the East River tubes. If one could funnel all the subways and all the commuter trains to a single
facility, everyone would benefit immensely.
Something like that seems to be in the works for the "East Side Access" plan, a Sunnyside station of the LIRR. But it seems that might only connect to the (7).
:-) Andrew
Nassau and Suffolk shouldn't become part of NYC, and neither should Westchester or Rockland.
:-) Andrew
But those four counties plus the five boroughs would make for a marvelous 51st state.
Actually it's the rest of the state that should secede. WE should keep the name "New York". The rest could be "Albany" or something. (Actually the western part should be its own state too, "Erie" or something.
:-) Andrew
Anything that makes New York less significant in National elections is fine with me. (Though I bet the greater-New-York-City-State would still have a sizable chunk of electoral votes.)
The 8-county 51st state would be about even-steven with Democrats and Republicans, which all-in-all is a good thing in that Republicans would suddenly wake up and realize the 22 or so presidential electoral votes could be won! Bipartisan federal largesse would thereupon flow. Upstate NY would usually go Republican, tho' the dymanics would likely change and it too would be genuinely two-party.
I'd call the upstate portion Adirondack (alphabetically first in the list of states).
It's actually doable. It just requires that the Republicans and Democrats in the Legislature realize it's to their benefit to do so. The upstaters would be bigger fish in a smaller pond.
(It's actually doable. It just requires that the Republicans and Democrats in the Legislature realize it's to their benefit to do so.
The upstaters would be bigger fish in a smaller pond.)
It's not doable. Congress would need to approve New York's Senate seats going from two to four.
My idea is to join New Jersey. But only if we could leave all our politicians stranded in Albany, and Selkirk TMO has already said he won't take them.
A friend of mine in Jersey City said that Hudson County, NJ would make a perfect 6th borough.
-Alex V.
But those four counties plus the five boroughs would make for a marvelous 51st state.
You're thinking too small. The 51st state should be made up of the following 15 (or 13 with 2 mergers) counties:
Bergen, (Bronx - merge it back into Westchester), Essex, Hudson, Kings, Middlesex, (Nassau - merge it back into Queens), New York, Passaic, Queens, Richmond, Rockland, Suffolk, Union, Westchester.
Agreed, but you'd have to get to legislatures to agree, and Trenton and Albany rarely agree on anything.
Agreed, but you'd have to get to legislatures to agree, and Trenton and Albany rarely agree on anything.
Would it be constitutional for Federal Government to impose an enlarged NYC - Jersey City?
Would it be constitutional for Federal Government to impose an enlarged NYC - Jersey City?
No. I'm not sure what all the constitutional and legal requirements would be for modifying state boundaries, but suffice it to say that it would take the approval of both state legislatures, Congress (by, I believe, a 75% majority vote of both the Senate and the House of Representatives), and, in the event that an entirely new state were to be created, approval by the majority of voters of that new state in a special referendum. And I'm sure there are other requirements as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is covered by the U.S. Constitution, Article IV, Section 3:
New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress.
There is precedent for this. Maine was separated from Massachusetts in accordance to this constitutional provision. West Virginia, more irregularly, was separated from Virginia during the U.S. Civil War.
No two-thirds majority is needed from Congress, just a majority of the members present in each house.
As for the consent of the legislature, in states where the people have the power to initiate legislation or constitutional amendments, the people themselves could ram such a division down the legislature's throat (e.g., we'd just say they won't get paid a dime until they consent). Something like this surfaces from time-to-time in California. There's a rather ancient movement in the Pacific Northwest to take the Idaho panhandle and join it to western Washington (centered on Spokane) as the state of 'Lincoln'.
It's doable.
West Virginia, more irregularly, was separated from Virginia during the U.S. Civil War.
If I understand correctly, an earlier irregularity was the admission of Kentucky as a state whilst Virginia still uncontestedly claimed that land. It seems that irregularities are doable as long as Virginia is the victim of them!
How was the District of Columbia set up - was this by Maryland and Virginia voting to allow it?
Both states donated the land for the Federal District. The District originally had two counties: Washington and Alexandria. Washington County encompassed the territory ceded by Maryland and included the Federal City, Georgetown, and several other small towns, while Alexandria County encompassed the territory ceded by Virginia, primarily the city of Alexandria. On July 9, 1846, Congress returned Alexandria County to Virginia, as its "remote location" across the Potomac rendered it unsuitable for use by the government, so today's Washington, D.C. is entirely on former Maryland territory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Virginia section of DC would have been what is now mostly Arlington county, and a small part of Alexandria. Just look at a map of DC and complete the diamond. Arlington is widely misunderstood by Northern Virginia residents to be a city. An easy mistake to make, since VA cities, just like counties, have their own judicial and legislative centers, and school system, etc. An Exception is that Fairfax county and Fairfax city have agreed to share.
Also, the Potomac is completely owned by Maryland. VA lost it as a result of the Civil War. It's a pain in the ass anytime VA wants to put in a pipe or a pier or such.
The Woodrow Wilson bridge between VA and MD crosses DC in its span.
Alexandria used to be famous for its crackers.
I think I'm out of fun facts.
U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 8, Clause 17:
"To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings"
Maryland and Virginia had no choice in the matter, unless they chose not to ratify the constitution.
Agreed, but you'd have to get the legislatures to agree, and Trenton and Albany rarely agree on anything.
"If Nassau & Suffok Countys Become Part Of NYC"
Us NYC residents would no longer have the peace of mind knowing that the fashion and finance celebrity ass-kissing disco trash technically leaves town by going to the Hamptons on summer weekends.
When you mean subway, I presume you mean rapid transit and not necessarily an underground subway. The general rule of thumb for subway building is a $1 billion dollars per mile of tunneling. I regrettably have to keep tossing that figure around to put things in perspective.
As such, I would vote to leave existing LIRR service as commuter rail. MNRR makes many stops within the Bronx and at 125th Street before Grand Central, and is a vital tool for conveying passengers to Midtown. There are many Bronx residents who commute solely to Manhattan on MNRR as the subway ride would be too long or inconvenient. That seat gets uncomfortable for me after an hour. I don't know about you.
However, Long Island is an excellent location for light rail. The problem with Long Island is that many business centers are spread out, much like Westchester. While LIRR helps bring people to Manhattan, it does noting to help people commuting from home in Brentwood to work in Huntington. Subway style rapid transit really requires a density on one end. Unfortunately, you have a lot of residences and businesses scattered throughout the island, by which it would be very difficult to connect all of them.
You mention Washington and Boston by example, but if you look at their transit map, you will see all lines heading to a central core. I don't know what, if any, central core Long Island has.
My vote would be to increase and subsidy parking lots at transit stations, provide more and faster commuter rail service to Manhattan (Midtown East, West, and Downtown), and build speedy light rail with sufficient parking to link areas of highest density.
MATT-2AV
"...If Nassau & Suffok [sic] Counties Became Part Of NYC.
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's bad enough that Brooklyn and the other counties had to live under a 104-year New York-occupation, there's no need to make the monster bigger and stronger.
Yeah, I wouldn't want to have to hear "Occupied Nassau or Suffolk"......
i rarely use this station but the last 2 times i went i saw that the upper mezanine which was rather large and went from 93rd st to 95th st and at one point 4th and 5th avenues is now partially sealed off. they even put tiles and mosaics on the cinderblock wall that is blocking the way to the 93rd st exit. there was also a sign somewhere that said something to the effect of "passageway permanently closed". are they building crew quarters on the other side of the wall? will the 2 entrances on 93rd st street level be dismanteled or sealed? at least the closing of that section looks nice.
-tim
Does anybody know how many R143 trainsets are in service on the L line right now?
Also, has the option order for the R143 has been placed yet?
Last report had three - four trains of R143's operating on the "L".
IIRC, the option order was approved a long time ago.
Thanks for the info. Do you know how many more trainsets the L would need before all of its R40s and R42s are removed from the line?
If I'm not mistaking the R-143 order is supposed to be 212 Cars, Maybe you have to divide 212 by 8 and you will your answer (8 Represents the Consists of each R-143 Trainset on the L Train).
-AcelaExpress2005
"If I'm not mistaking the R-143 order is supposed to be 212 Cars, Maybe you have to divide 212 by 8 and you will your answer (8 Represents the Consists of each R-143 Trainset on the L Train)."
No! The R-143 only needs 160 cars. The remaining 52 cars will go to the J or M line. -Nick
Not quite.
The L currently needs 168 cars (21x8), and the R-143 order is for 212 cars as was stated. HOWEVER, not all of the 212 cars are expected to be in service at any given time. Some will be unavailable at any given time due to inspections and eventually SMS (overhauls/upgrades). After the L's 168 daily cars are accounted for (and that number might go up or down depending on ridership levels in the peak hour), whatever's left on a given day can be allocated to another line (J/Z or M, most likely M).
David
I thought I heard from someone here that one trainset has been allocated to the M, or at least has arrived. I don't know if they have used it in service on the M yet. Is this true that one set has been allocated to the M already?
Not to my knowledge. There are PLANS to run R-143s on the M on weekends, but as far as I am aware none have run there in customer service yet.
David
I am that someone and I posted that less than a week ago. As per the protocol used with the R142 and 142A, whenever new car engineering gives the ok, the train would do simulated M service before it goes into passenger service. I have no idea of a timetable.
If you do that, where do you plan on finding the cars to send to the M line?
There are more than that. I pass by ENY Yard almost everyday when I go to work. I counted 48 individual cars of R-143's on my way in to work one AM: 3 trainsets on the road (That makes 24). And the rest of them we sitting in the yard in sets of six sets of 4 (24 More)
I seem to be the only one working on an extensive subway expansion plan--just for fun, not for the purpose of proposing anything as well all know $$$$ is always an issue. No that's now true--Elias and Chris Rivera are working on plans too, but the three of us are the only ones who have boldy come forward with ideas. Some of you subtalk posters out there have posted messages in response to other messages that you've been working on plans, but those who did that are very quiet about them now. I know that there are more of you subtalkers out there with "little drafts" of proposals--though I would advise sending anything to the MTA; they'll never take it into consideration, and of course the money issue. So it would be just sharing transit projects, not formal proposals, between railfans only. That's the fun part, to swap stories and fictional proposals of trains going all over the city and into the Metro Area. So come on, don't be shy! Share yourself, drawa up that draft thay you always wanted to do.
Okay, if you're shy and too protective of your ideas to share on the board, because you think others actually believe your proposals will become a reality and sending to the MTA, that's okay. Send them to me via email at dlamond27@yahoo.com. There's no reason why anyone on the board would think that a poster is serious about making a proposed routing a reality, as we all know it is not going to happen, due to NIMBYS and $$$$, and other concerns that the MTA puts priority on than focusing on providing adequate and efficient transit service. All these routes are in theory--I think it's better that way--even as practical, common sense ideas are unlikely to happen. and We can have more fun this way, so come on, let's sway stories.
I'm sure most everybody has a cool idea or another, and plenty have come up from time to time.
Here's mine: New Queens-Manhattan line, running diagonally SW-NE. (It would have to be deeply tunneled in Manhattan, since it doesn't follow under any road.) It would run from Flushing, to Northern Blvd, to Broadway, and Across the East river to somewhere in the low 80s. It would then run down York St until it hits Cornell's Hospital, than diagonal across the city through 64th-ish and 2nd, 60st and Lex, Smack dab in the middle of Rockefeller Center, Times Square, and 8th & 34th.
I'm not sure what best to do south of there. Could go west to Javits and then south to Chelsea Peirs, Or take over some section of the 8th Ave line (though I hate line merges).
The line would have great transfers, and take you through the heart of midtown. I think it would have fewer riders transferring to the Lex than most lines, and if 2nd Ave were to be built, would help them get into the business district.
How about you gather some more of your ideas and send them to me? I'm at dlamond27@yahoo.com. And I'll send you mine. Some Subtalkers on this board already have copies of my plans.
Seriously, extend the Bronx end of the D train one station along its originally planned route to White Plains Road (under Burke Avenue) with passenger transfer facilities. The entire extension, even if new tail tracks were added, would be less than one mile. The benefits would not only allow White Plains Road line riders access to the west side via the less crowded and faster Concourse line, but would significantly reduce the amount of bus time and mileage used by people living east of White Plains Road (and even Co-op City)from the existing awkward "temporary" terminal at 205th St. It never was designed to be the end of the line and the buses overwhelm the local streets. The reduction in bus mileage costs alone would be significant. One station! One station!
How about extending the pitiful R line from 95th Street eastward towards Dyker Park and maybe even closer to Coney Island. It has always seemed strange that line just ends where it does when there is room to extention. Just a thought.
the R train probably ends where it does because of geographical/geological limitations. i could be wrong though.
My Web site is at http://members.tripod.com/subways2020/, and is updated from time to time with new ideas not all of which are compatable with each other, but what the heck, they are only ideas.
Id be delighted to post the ideas of others as well, especially if you can make maps or sketches of your ideas.
Some of the tenents of my ideas are:
1) Existing lines, crossings and trunks are filled to capacity and are off limits to expansion, unless you are able to demonstrate with appropriate tph and carloading data to justify said plans.
2) New lines need new routes and crossings and trunk lines. Try to fit things in so that existing infrastructure is not inturupted.
3) Minimize merges and complications that will slow trains down.
4) think automation! It will help increase speed and tph.
5) Have fun.
Elias
I have a lot of subway expansion ideas.
One of the ideas I've always liked is a circle line, in which trains run without end (well, they would have to be removed from service at some point).
The 7 would be extended east from Flushing all the way to the eastern end of Long Island.
The 7 would be extended west from Times Square all the way to the eastern end of Long Island.
In addition to this, the 1 will be extended south from South Ferry(once fixed in that area) to connect with the SIR at St. George, and the 1 will be extended north from 242nd Street to connect with the SIR at Tottenville.
Circle lines indeed!
wow, that would be some circle line!
The 7 would be extended east from Flushing all the way to the eastern end of Long Island.
The 7 would be extended west from Times Square all the way to the eastern end of Long Island.
How many stations are you planning to have on the way back to Manhattan?
Are you willing to go past Montauk? Montauk is 117 miles from Penn Station. Motormen must have a drearing job to take Redbirds (or R62a's for that matter), chugging at a slow speed.
Which "side" of eastern LI do you want to go? Towards Greenport or Montauk?
Dude, that line would almost be 150 clicks long, if not 200 clicks. Motormen will have a great time with THAT line.
Hong Kong's Lantau Airport Railway is about 43 km running from Central station to Tung Chung, with stops at Kowloon, Olympic, Nam Cheong, Lai King and Tsing Yi before a superexpress stretch to Tung Chung. So unless there is a need for a superexpress line from Montauk to Times Square.
Of course it IS possible. Extend the 7 line, turn it into a super express line, kiill about 50-60 stops on the 7 line and the LIRR, and voila! Long Island Express Railway, a la Lantau Airport Railway! Now the question is, would anyone use it?!
-J!
Some of you have some good ideas, but how about developing them further? Extending one or two routes in an alternate scenario isn't enough to provided adequate transit for the city.
Yesterday morning around 11am i was heading to see my doctor & i was getting off at Fordham Rd Station on #4 line than i saw R62 #1431-32-33-34-1438 with brand new trucks on the middle track. They were testing with new trucks with couple RTO in the cars. Any body know about this?
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
R68As out in Brooklyn have been getting new trucks too. Red, Yellow, and Blue all on one truck. And of course black and rail dust color. How'd those look?
The trucks are probably overhauled, not new. "Train Dude" can probably comment on this with more expertise, but as far as I am aware trucks generally don't get replaced unless something's seriously wrong or a new type of truck is being tested.
David
They are probably not new, just clean, repainted and with a few new components. The cars probably just came out of some overhaul or SMS program.
To the person who sent me the e-mail with "no-ID". I do not enter areas I am not authorized to enter. If I get material, I will not forward to anyone else.
DAVE: Please do not delete this post..
SUBTALKERS: Do not respond to this post.
>>>SUBTALKERS: Do not respond to this post. <<<
Why not?
Peace,
ANDEE
Greetings, all...
As I mentioned before, I'll be in Philly from next Thursday (6/13) through Sunday (6/16).
My itinerary hasn't changed much, except that I'll be drivng to Philly from Chicago instead of flying. Even though my car gets horrible gas mileage, it still turned out to be the cheapest option.
I'll likely leave Chicago Wednesday afternoon (as soon as my unemployment check arrives in the mail), spend the night somewhere along the way, and arrive in Philly late Thursday morning. My job interview is at 2:00. However, I'm trying to re-schedule it for Friday morning so I can drive all day Wednesday and not spend a night on the road. I'll be staying at a motel in Maple Shade, NJ.
Friday will be spent exploring Philly's various neighborhoods, and possibly doing some tentative apartment shopping. Unfortnately, I probably won't have time to do much railfan stuff on SEPTA.
Saturday, I'll be heading up to NYC for a day-long side trip. Chances are I'll probably drive up, although a SEPTA/NJT train ride might be a refreshing change of pace after driving 770 miles. What's traffic like on I-95 or the NJ Turnpike on a typical Saturday? The main reason for driving is that it would probably be quicker than SEPTA/NJT, and I'd prefer not have my activites in NYC revolve around a timetable. Assuming I drive, I'd park near a PATH or NYCTA subway station and use the subway to get around in the city. Any reccomendations for day-long parking? How about the Journal Square PATH station, or maybe parking on the street in some reasonably-safe neighborhood in Brooklyn near a subway stop? My main concerns are that my car be safe (not that it's likely to get stolen -- it's a beat-up 1986 Trans Am with 151,000+ miles on it), and cost.
As far as what I do in NYC, that's still up in the air. I'll probably pay my respects at Ground Zero first thing after I arrive, just to get that over with, and end the day by spending a nice summer evening at Coney Island before I head back to Philly. What I do in between is up for grabs, although I'd be anxious for a kind SubTalker to lead me to the best pizza place in New York for lunch or dinner. After several visits to NYC I still haven't had anything to compare with Chicago's deep-dish pizza, but I'm willing to keep an open mind. :-)
So far Kevin Walsh and Gary Wengeroff have expressed an interest in hooking up with me. I'll also send heypaul an e-mail to see if he's interested. Anybody else up for showing a Chicagoan-soon-to-be-a-Philadelphian around town? When and where shall we meet? Sometime in the afternoon would work best for me (I'd like to do a couple things on my own during the morning), and I'm not picky about the meeting spot as long as I can get there without too much hassle. Respond here or send me an e-mail.
By the way, does the NYC subway have anything like a day-long visitor pass for unlimited rides? If so, I assume this is something I could pick up at any station?
On Sunday, I'll probably attend services at a church somewhere in Philly before getting back on the road toward Chicago. With any luck, my car and my wallet will last the trip.
-- David
Chicago, IL
There is a one-day pass available for $4.00. Not sure if they are available at stations, although tourist places do sell them.
I used to park at the Port Authority Bus Terminal years ago. It's right by the 42nd St. station on the A/C/E.
Give my regards to the Toll Road.:-) And the PA Turnpike. Haven't been on it in 30 years.
For the best pizza in the East Coast tradition (very different from Chicago pizza, keep in mind) go to Gianfranco's Pizza Rustica in Philly. It's at 3rd and Market. Just get off the MFL at 2nd Street and walk one block to the west. It's on 3rd Street, just north of Market, on the west side of the street.
Welcome, in advance, to Philadelphia!
Mark
I-95 in Philly is a nightmare most times.
Parking in Brooklyn is very safe, if you park in the southern parts. You should be fine in Boro Park, Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge etc...
Stop at Katz's in NYC for a great pastrami sandwich on E Houston near Ludlow in the LES. In Philly, cheese steaks at Geno's at 9th and Passyunk in S. Philly.
Thanks for the tips. Since I'll be coming from South Jersey, I'll probably just take the NJ Turnpike all the way up from Route 73 and not bother crossing into PA.
How about parking in the vincinity of Coney Island? I've been there a few times before, and while the neighborhood was a bit gritty, it didn't seem to horriffic.
Now that I've taken the time to look at my NYC map, I'm thinking I may head north to the George Washington Bridge, go across and then drive down the full length of Broadway with my t-tops off, and then across the Brooklyn Bridge. (How cool would that be? Weather is supposed to be perfect next weekend.) I'll then find my way down to Coney Island via the Gowanus Expressway, park there for the day, and take the subway back into Manhattan. At the end of the day, I can hop back in my car, go across the Verrazano Narrows Bridge (again, with the t-tops off), and head back to the NJ Turnpike via the Staten Island Expressway and Goethals Bridge.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Watch out, bridge tolls are $5 for PA bridges and $7 for MTA bridges. Driving into Booklyn will cost you an extra $12 not including parking.
It is a one way toll, so they charge you double on the way in and nothing on the way out. I always tell people when you reach one of the one way toll barriers, divide the cost by 2 and you know the real cost, but they won't listen, they seem inclined to believe that if you pay 5 dollars one way and 0 on the way back, you are being overcharged (even though you don't have to wait in line on the trip back).
They ARE being overcharged. DRPA bridges? $3. Tappen Zee? $3. Bear Mountain $.75. The MTA/PA are only using the NYC bridges as cash cows because they have a monopoly on river crossings.
If you really want to drive through Brooklyn (why, I can't imagine), take Outerbridge to SI and then the Verrazzano to Brooklyn, exiting NYC via the GWB. This will save you $7 over the cost of going the other way (your only toll will be $5 at Outerbridge, rather than $5 at the GWB and $7 at the Verrazzano). But my recommendation would be to take the Turnpike to exit 11 (Garden State Parkway), then north two miles to the Metropark station exit, and take the train in from there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But my recommendation would be to take the Turnpike to exit 11 (Garden State Parkway), then north two miles to the Metropark station exit, and take the train in from there.
That's an OK alternative, Chris, but driving on 295 is much less stressful than driving the NJ turnpike, and after driving from Chicago, that could be a factor to consider.
True... I usually take 295 myself (from I-195 and 130) when going home to North Carolina... not used to Hamilton station and so didn't think about the fact that it's easy access from the Trenton beltway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
...but driving on 295 is much less stressful than driving the NJ turnpike...
Hey, give me some credit. :-) As somebody who regularly drives Chicago's expressways, especially the notorious Dan Ryan, during rush hour, I don't know how much worse the NJ Turnpike could possibly be. [David says with a laugh. Ominous music begins playing in the background...]
-- David
Chicago, IL
Does the Dan Ryan have 12 lanes on traffic in 4 seperate roadways and is it the primary truck corricor for the most industrialized region in the world?
BTW, when buying your ticket make sure you get a reduced fare off peak RTX ticket.
Does the Dan Ryan have 12 lanes on traffic in 4 seperate roadways and is it the primary truck corricor for the most industrialized region in the world?
It's actually 14-16 lanes wide with express and local lanes in each direction and CTA trains running down the center, and yes, it gets plenty of truck traffic due to truckers not wishing to pay the toll to use the Chicago Skyway. And it goes through neighborhoods where, if you piss off the wrong person while driving, you're liable to catch a bullet in your head.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's actually 14-16 lanes wide...
Good grief... shows how long it's been since I last had to drive it... all I remember is 8 lanes!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's actually pretty hard to get an accurate count... I'm usually too busy watching traffic! You're right about it having only two speeds: 75 and zero. And it's bumper-to-bumper at all hours, even when it's moving at 75!
-- David
Chicago, IL
I can vaguely remember when the Dan Ryan was being built - a humungous trench in the ground.
Does the Dan Ryan have 12 lanes on traffic in 4 seperate roadways and is it the primary truck corricor for the most industrialized region in the world?
Worse... it has eight lanes where people drive at only two speeds: 75 and zero. I was fortunate when I lived in Chicago, lo those many years ago, that I could ride the Evanston Express to work and didn't have to contend with the traffic.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of hellish roads, what do folks reccomend to get across Pennsylvania: The PA Turnpike, or I-80?
I've gone across PA on I-80 before, and it's a fairly modern highway, and it's free, but it's not quite the most direct route and the scenery is a bit dull.
I've heard horror stories about the PA Turnpike, and it's a toll road, but it's also more direct and probably has more interesting scenery.
I'll probably be driving through PA in the daytime, either because I was able to re-schedule my interview for Friday and leave first thing Thursday morning, or because I leave Wednesday afternoon and spend the night somewhere around Pittsburg. However, there's a slim possibility I could drive straight through Wednesday night (I'm a night owl by nature), and thus be going through PA late at night.
Any thoughts?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oh, I'd definitely recommend the Pike. It's got a lot more history and roadgeek interest (abandoned tunnels!)
If you have to be in Pittsburgh from New York City, I'd take I-78 across Jersey, to I-81, to the PA Turnpike to Pittsburgh. I've done that trip a few times myself. If you're in Philly or going to Philly, stay on the I-76 portion of the Pike into Philly (the Schuykill Expressway)
If it's late at night, the PA Pike has the advantage of staffed 24 hour rest areas. Doubt I-80 has any, being a free road.
I-80 doesn't have any service areas for the exact reason you mentioned. And yes, if you're going to Philadelphia, the Turnpike will take you there directly.
We used to take I-80 all the way through Pennsylvania to Chicago when we lived in Jersey - once it was finished all the way through PA.
I-80 has very few services , if any at all. You have to get "off"
the road to get anything at all.
I saw your resume pictures , your drawings are very professional.
I'm using Solid works, 3-d program , and the stuff turns out awesome!!
Chuck
Lots of work on the Penna Turnpike, one lne in each direction in many places, 35-45MPH,
"Lots of work on the Penna Turnpike, one lne in each direction in many places, 35-45MPH"
We have a lot of highway construction out here too.
Speed is REDUCED to 60mph!
I was just pointing out things that can be seen from our dining room window...
That water tank is one mile away.....
That curve in the road is six miles away...
Why yes that *is* a State Road (one lane each direction... no shoulders on it) so the speed limit is 65 on it. Well the cop will not stop you if you are only doing 73 on it. Well, right, there *is* no cops on htat road any way, but it *is* patroled by Sheriff Darwin, and the nearest ambulance (hey, that's me!) is 10 to 30 minutes away... and it *could* take an hour to get you to the emergency room...."
Well, Sheriff Darwin is every bit as unforgiving of such things as his urban brother Conductor Darwin.
Drive Safely you hear!
Elias
Penn road slabs removed leave a 16 inch slot that'll strip your axles off the chassis at 60 MPH...worse than wacking deer butt! CI Peter
I had my share of near misses with deer. One Night I was coming home from work and I was on I 80 West in Stroudsburg PA going about 70MPH with no other cars on the road it was only 3AM and I came up on this deer that just stood on the road and was not moving. I slammed the brakes and luckly it ran the other way. Then another time driving with my friends in the car I rounded a curve at 30MPH and the deer just stood and looked at me but this time I hit deer at about 15MPH. My front right headlight was busted.
Nightime driveing in PA is dangrous.
There is a water filled ditch on the right hand side of I-80 Westbound. Seven radios sqaulking simultaneously on the midnight run...truckers on the CB debating whether it's better to whack a deer or slip into the right lane missing road slabs and lose an axle. I never saw so many deer in my life...all taking a drink and just waiting for the vehicle with their name on it. CI Peter
"and I was on I 80 West in Stroudsburg PA going about 70MPH "
Hey! That's right by my parents house.
Isn't that where they have that strict enforcement zone?
: ) Elias
So your parents live in my area. Yes thats where the Strict Enforcement Zone is but I didn't see any Troopers out there. I never see a Trooper out there at night. Thats also where they want you to maintain two dots apart it reminds me of the Step aside program.
"So your parents live in my area. "
Yeah... in East Stroudsburg...
I called them just today... I still haven't decided on when I will come east on vacation, but my thinking is September or October.
Elias
I live in Bartonsville. Exit 302 old 46 (Truck Stop).
And I thought my 49-mile commute to work (one way) was long..:-)
You mean you commute every day from the Stroudsburg area to the Bronx? Wow! That must be a good 70 miles or more! I know the Stroudsburg and Easton areas are becoming more and more popular as suburbs to the New York area- or for people who work in the north central Jersey office parks. If you read the Real Estate pages any Friday, you see loads of new developments being advertised.
An increasing number of NYC teachers and Sanitation workers live in extreme eastern Pennsylvania. Cops and firefighters aren't allowed to live out of state, but a lot do live in the outer reaches of Orange County, 80-plus miles from Midtown. Of course, firefighters usually work one weekly 24-hour shift, so that cuts down on the strain of the commute.
These distances are comparable to the line the William Floyd Parkway draws across north and south Long Island, but there doesn't seem to be that many city commuters east of Wading River, Yaphank and Mastic-Shirley. The latter community does have a substantial amount of LIRR commuters.
There is some commuter bus service to Stroudsburg provided by Short Line, Peter Pan or other carrier. It looks like you have to get up at 4:30 in order to get into Port Authority by 8:00. Back in '95, NJT extended passenger service from Netcong west to Hackettstown on a very limited peak basis. There are continued rumblings about extended service yet further west into PA, but the circituous route of the Morris & Essex lines may limit passenger demand. For similar reasons, probably not too many people drive daily across the state line into Port Jervis to use that NJT branch.
Conversely, there seems to be very heavy PA-to-NY rail commutation from the northeast Philly suburbs, thanks to the much faster NE corridor line and the acceptance of NJT tickets on some Amtrak trains. (It's been reported that some Amtrak conductors will unofficially allow passage on NJT monthlies- even on trains that aren't supposed to- kind of a 'gentleman's agreement'.)
As a TO, you probably work a lot of weekends and other off-hours when traffic on I-80 wouldn't be that bad- unless there's work on the GWB or a Yankee game.
Back in '95, NJT extended passenger service from Netcong west to Hackettstown on a very limited peak basis. There are continued rumblings about extended service yet further west into PA, but the circituous route of the Morris & Essex lines may limit passenger demand. For similar reasons, probably not too many people drive daily across the state line into Port Jervis to use that NJT branch.
I've heard that ridership on the Port Jervis line is actually quite good. The last I heard, which was at least a couple of years ago, there were more than 200 monthly ticket holders just from Port Jervis station.
I do commute every day but on the PM tour its not bad. Its 80 Miles and that takes me an Hour and a Half on a good road. I always give myself 2 Hours exept Rush Hour then add another 30 Minutes. Yankee Games cause me Headaches because that brings the GWB to a 45 to 60 Minutes delays.
I'm a C/R Pel Bay Dave SR don't post anymore. I do work weekend and for the most part exept Yankee games its a good ride.
I know TA workers who live in my area and they are a mix of Bus Operators, Conductors, and Train Operators. I met a B/O who works at the Flatbush Depot and a T/O who works out of 207 St.
I could take the Bus but it don't work for me since I work in the BX because it goes to Port Anthority. Then my nearest Lines are the No.3,7 Lines for IRT and E,F,G,J,N,R,W Lines out of Queens or the Q out of 57 St. The first Martz bus get to NYC at 6:15AM and the last bus out is 11PM. Maybe If I ever get the fear of B Div. out of me and go to B Div I would think about taking the Bus.
Actually the last bus out is 12:30 AM
Even Better!! Thanks for the Update!
That's better than the N21!!! Last N21 out of Flushing to Glen Cove is 9:50pm. Goes to show you just how pathetic Long Island transit is. Well buses anyway.
Goes to show you just how pathetic Long Island transit is. Well buses anyway.
The Martz Bus is a private company. Has nothing to do with transit busses.
It is also $30.00 round trip (for occasional users such as myself.)
Elias
I don't know how you guys do it. Your commuting expenses are high. You need a new car every couple of years, you pound the road all day in the TA. If the weather is icy you have a problem. God Bless and help the guy who is the bus operator from Flatbush! He better not burn out form sitting behind the wheel.
I have a place to go to in Midtown Manhattan so if the weather gets bad I can stay in the City.
Highway mileage helps keep a car engine young. Most of my Jeep's mileage accumulated at sustained highway speeds. Its engine doesn't know what sludge is.:-) Still oil-tight and untouched after 460,000 miles.
Yeah, I was once standing in my friend's driveway at dusk and I see deer on the road below and here comes a medium-duty type truck and whack. The sound was terrible. The truck pulled over a little ways down. Then some more cars came down the road and hit the now dead or dying deer. Hopefully that put it out of its misery. But deer and cars are a deadly and gross combination.
A short thing, why do ramps leading to highways in California have TRAFFIC LIGHTS? I've noticed this on I-405, which is rubbernecked all day (except maybe late nights).
It's a flow meter. Sensors on the road control the traffic light that will allow you to merge into the grandy lane without making another full stop.
Seen them in a few eastern cities too.
On the Van Wyck and the LIE they have them.
Most of them don't work, out of disrepair or they've been turned off.
-Hank
We've also got them on most expressways here in Chicago, but they're only activated during rush hours. During non-peak times, they simply stay green.
-- David
Chicago, IL
They are for evenly distributing the cars entering the highway. It allows the driver to concentrate on merging with freeway traffic instead of also looking at the car in front of s/he. That way, you won't have a number of cars bunched up and slowing down. We have those on I-75 in Atlanta.
We've got ramp meters in Denver, too.
I-80 is the perfect choice, and it goes right past my parent's place.
You *did* say you were going to HARTFORD, right! : )
Elias
I-80 is free but goes too far north. Both I-80 and the Penn Tnpk are plagued with construction zones and midnight deer kills. Having done the TEN HOUR DAYTON HAMFEST RUN nonstop from New Jersey, I'd recommend the Tnpk. Just watch the fog over the mountains...better a daylight run. Suck up behind a tandem clocking seventy and pick your foot up. Better yet, suck up behind a single doing eighty. Lighten up on slick roadways....70/76/78/22 into New York. CI peter
I-80 is a terrible road in many sections, the scenery sucks, and it goes through the middle of nowhere.
The Turnpike is well maintained, in excellent condition, goes directly between Pittsburgh-Harrisburg-Philly, the scenery sucks, but its not nearly as bad.
What exactly are your start and finish points?
If you like mountains, I-80 is a great drive. But the Turnpike is also a lot of fun, and it's of great historical interest. And there are tunnels!
If you choose the Turnpike, get off at Carlisle for gas -- the Pilot by the Turnpike and the Flying J by I-81 are very cheap. And if you choose I-80, get off at former exit 25 (PennDOT renumbered its exits last year, and I don't know the new number offhand, but the old numbers are still posted) and fill up at the Speedway.
Starting point: Chicago
Finish point: Maple Shade, NJ (outside of Philly)
BTW, about how much is gas in PA and NJ right now? Here in Chicago it's about $1.80 a gallon for regular unleaded. I'm still trying to get a better idea of how much gas will cost me... My budget on this trip is about at tight as they come.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I-80 isn't an option for the Philly area -- it stays way too far north. I'm afraid there aren't many high-speed alternatives to the Turnpikes(Indiana Toll Road, Ohio Turnpike, Pennsylvania Turnpike). If you're willing to go on a mild adventure, take US 22 through the mountains from Pittsburgh to Harrisburg -- it'll save you about $7 in Turnpike tolls.
According to fuelgaugereport.com, average statewide gas prices for 87 are $1.489 in IL, $1.349 in IN, $1.369 in OH, $1.359 in PA, and $1.335 in NJ. Check the Flying J web site before you go for Flying J truck stops along your route -- they're usually much, much cheaper than other stations (and they often pull down the prices at their neighbors). The web site even lists gas prices. The Flying J in Carlisle which I mentioned earlier currently charges $1.219, 14 cents per gallon less than the state average. I don't see any others that you'll pass aside from the one in Gary (which is cheap by Chicago-area standards but you'll save more by waiting until you're out of the area), but keep the list in mind for future drives.
$1.33? Speak for yourself. I get it for $1.22 down at the Hindu guys' place on Haddonfield-Berlin Rd. The Turkish guys' on Haddon Ave. have their at $1.26 so I stopped going there.
That's the average statewide price in New Jersey, according to the AAA. Some individual stations charge more; others charge less. I paid $1.199 at an Exxon in Carney's Point the day after Memorial Day, thanks to the Flying J influence.
Flying J is awesome. Also, take the Turnpike because it was designed from the get-go for 100mph driving. The curves and everything. The interstates were designed for bumper to bumper traffic.
My father still remembers "reasonable and prudent" speed limit signs on the PA Turnpike in the 50s. Not to mention cars with smoking engines. They'd burn out after doing 80-90 mph. The tunnels used to be bottlenecks, with cops waving people along.
I still remember the former westernmost tunnel, Laurel Hill, during our 1962 vacation trip, and could have sworn there was a sharp curve just inside the west portal. The map on their website shows the tunnel as being a straight bore.
Carney's Point? Was that like a direct-from-the-refinery station? Seriously, why don't refineries operate discount gas stations next to their gates? We're talking 0 transport costs.
$1.33? Speak for yourself. I get it for $1.22 down at the Hindu guys' place on Haddonfield-Berlin Rd.
Mike,
Our part of NJ has had the lowest gas prices in the state for at least 50 years, probably 70, dating back to the price wars that used to start on Admiral Wilson Blve (busiest highway in the world 65 years ago).
BTW, I suspect your "Hindu" station is Sikh. If so, they would wizz in your gas tank if they knew you called them Hindu.
That's even cheaper!
Well, when my used to go to this Citgo run by a couple of guy who wore wrapped head coverings up on Rt 130 in Bordentown, at one point they really did give her bad gas and left her stranded 5 miles up the road. We never found out if it was piss or water cause she never went back to that place again.
"Our part of NJ has had the lowest gas prices in the state for at least 50 years, probably 70, dating back to the price wars that used to start on Admiral Wilson Blve (busiest highway in the world 65 years ago). "
Remember the "Petro Stop" that was always priced like 5 cents lower than everyone else? I swear, they must have been selling like 60 octane. It was one up from the Merit (now a Hess) that had the highest gas station robbery fatality rate in the state.
Its a shame the state tore out all those gas stations and porno places. THey all moved to Maple Shade and that's not on may way home any more.
Its a shame the state tore out all those gas stations and porno places.
Were they 99¢ porno stores?
Price difference between wrapped/unwrapped towels. Buy American! CI Peter
I pay about 1.49 a gallon here in the Pocono's.
Hmmm... I may actually go ahead and grab NJT at Hamilton as opposed to driving all the way in. After driving all the way from Chicago, a relaxing train ride might be a refreshing change, and I'll have plenty of other opportunities to drive around NYC. But then, I don't really wish to be tied to a train timetable. I guess it will probably depend on what state of mind I'm in when I wake up that morning.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Going in you'll have half-hourly schedules; depending on your return time you will have either half-hourly or, more likely, hourly schedules (at nn:37 from NYP). Not that bad of an option, really - certainly what I would do.
BTW, where are you staying in Maple Shade? When I attend the East Penn meets in Pennsauken (every other spring) I stay at the Motel 6; clean, relatively cheap, quiet.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW, where are you staying in Maple Shade?
Someplace called the Crossland on Route 73. Cheapest place I could find on Travelocity.com at $45 a night.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Any MVM will have the $4.00 Funpass for you to buy. It's a great value. Why are you bothering with food court style NYC pizza? We all know that it doesn't come close to Chicago style :-)
Why are you bothering with food court style NYC pizza? We all know that it doesn't come close to Chicago style :-)
Heh... Now now, Let's not start another pizza war here. So far I agree that Chicago-style pizza is superior, but again, maybe I've only had really crappy examples of NY-style pizza so far. I'm willing to give New York a fair shot to prove its best pizza to me before I declare once and for all which style I prefer. I'd expect a New Yorker to do the same for Chicago. :-)
Thanks for the tip about the MVM's... Does every station have an MVM now? Last time I was in NYC, they were still being installed throughout the system.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Each station has at least one MVM. By now, it seems like each station has at least two full-size MVM's and at least one MEM (credit and debit cards only). They all sell Fun Passes.
I have seen plenty of stations without MEMs. In fact, when I was at Grand Central two weeks ago, I don't recall seeing any there.
They've been spreading like wildfire in the past month or two. I'm surprised there are none at Grand Central, but I'm sure they'll be there soon enough.
I wonder if the original MEM installation (34/6, south end) still does trade-ins. The others have that feature disabled.
When I was in the city in December, there weren't any. I saw one for the first time in late April at 34/8 south end and again over Memorial Day Weekend at some other stations.
In December they were still very uncommon -- the only ones I knew of at the time were at the three 34th Street stations (Herald Square and 7th for sure -- I don't know about 8th). As I said, they've been spreading like wildfire in the past month or two. They're now at local stations in residential areas.
If having a car in New York isn't important to you, you could take 295 up to exit 65 and take the NJT train from Hamilton. The Hamilton station is a half mile from 295. The entrance to 295 from route 73 (295 exit 36)in Maple Shade is right next to the Turnpike entrance.
Thanks for the info. I may do that if I don't quite feel up to driving.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Parking is $3. Note the 4 digit parking space number, go to one of the parking "sheds", put $3 (change given) into the token machine for a parking token; enter the 4 digit parking space number into the adjacent machine, insert the token, push the button, and you've paid for parking.
Train ticket machines on the platform take credit cards and cash (up to $20 bill; change is given in dollar coins).
Hamilton station from parking lot
Hamilton station from eastbound platform
Thanks for the info. BTW, has New Jersey re-numbered their highway exits recently? According to my map (dated 2000), there's no exit 65 anywhere on the NJ Turnpike. I may have to get myself a new map.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Exit is on I-95/295 b4 it becomes the Turnpike. The exit is right b4/after Rt. 1 on the "Trenton Beltway".
I just went into NYC Today and used the Hamelton Station. U highly recomend it. Not only does it make getting into NYC easy, it provides one of the greatest railfan hotspots on the NEC for fast moving Amtrak trains. There is a glass walkway over all 4 hi-speed (125mph) tracks.
it provides one of the greatest railfan hotspots on the NEC for fast moving Amtrak trains. There is a glass walkway over all 4 hi-speed (125mph) tracks.
Examples of view from overhead walkway at Hamilton station:
looking west over track 1
looking east over track 1
I'd love to meet at Coney Island, but we have a graduation party that afternoon in Sussex County, NJ. The good news is that you will be closer to NYC for future trips and maybe some of us could get together for a future Saturday night or Sunday field trip.
>> Any reccomendations for day-long parking? How about the Journal Square PATH station, or maybe parking on the street in some reasonably-safe neighborhood in Brooklyn near a subway stop? <<
A good place to park in Brooklyn is the self-parking garage underneath the shopping mall next to the Flatbush Ave terminal of the LIRR. I think it's $7 or $8 before 10 AM and $15 for the day after that. That is a block from the subways and the LIRR. I often park there to visit a nearby client and it looks reasonably safe to me.
In Queens, you can find two city-operated self-parking garages near the Queensboro Bridge. The Court Square garage is about $8 for a day and is a block from the E, V, and G. The Queensboro Plaza garage is $6.50 for a day and is right near the E, F, V, and R but I think is less safe, although many city DOT vehicles are parked there.
I forgot my other favorite parking garage-- the one in Kew Gardens two blocks from the Union Tpke station of the E and F. Also $6.50 for the day if I recall and always plenty of space.
is there anyone know for those 35 feets RTS in Ithaca, are they TMC or nova?
Bus questions belong on Bus-Talk, not here. Also if you get the VIN of the buses you can go to www.omot.org and answer your own question.
The TCAT RTSs began service around 1996. Assuming they were new at the time, I believe that would make them Novas.
Yeah! Ithaca! :)
MATT-2AV
Okay guys,
I was at a HK Rail Boad a few minutess ago, and I saw something interesting inside one of the posts...Of all the things in the world, beside my beloved Kinisharyo KCR West Rail trains, were some more R142s still under manufacture!
So I thought to myself: KCR's trains are made by Kinisharyo. The R142s are made by Kawasaki. What's going on? Since when did these two trains all of a sudden appear in the same factory yard?!
It's at this link: http://users.hoops.ne.jp/gfaz/
-J!
(1) No one can understand the characters unless they know Japanese. All characters are in Japanese.
(2) The NYC Subway cars shown on the website are actually R143 cars.
(3) The title of the website is about the rail cars at the Kawasaki factory in the Hyogo Prefecture in Japan. To tell you the truth, the newest KCR cars are made by Kawasaki, not what you mentioned earlier. You can use google to verify that.
Chaohwa
What lines will they be assigned to & how many will each line receive.
probaly the #3 an #4
#r142 About 260 cars
#4 about 80 cars.R142a
There is no "option order," all the cars are the same. Option only means the quantity of cars that the TA is not contractually obligated to buy but that the manufacturer must provide if the TA so desires to purchase.
go to "nyc.subway.org" and explore the site.
Do you mean this site, nycsubway.org?
- Lyle Goldman
No. Notice that the site you are on right now has a longer url. nycsubway.org is the main non subtalk site. It has links to the subtalk and bustalk sites.
In March or April this year, a picture from a Japanese railfan site has some R142s still under manufacture at a Kawasaki plant in Japan. I'm petting that those are going to be going to the Lexington Avenue line, most likely, when they are shipped to New York.
-J!
P.S. Does anyone know if the 7th Ave/Broadway (1, 2, 3, 9) is up for any new cars? Perhaps the R142s are going there...But more likely it'll probably be the Lexington Ave.
Go to the main site of nycsubway.org and navigate the site for info on the R142/142A.
In an earlier post supporting the need for a new skyscraper to replace the WTC, David Cole wrote that "Lower Manhattan needs an anchor." He could not be more correct. At thirty seven I am among the youngest of those old enough to remember a New York before the WTC. For me, growing up the Empire State Building was king. I hated the Twin Towers. I thought they were ugly as hell and unfit to usurp the ESB as the world's tallest building. I remember wishing the double cranes atop them as they rose would collapse, taking the towers down with them. But rise they did and I found myself admiring them in spite of myself. Certain types of ugly women can grow beautiful before your eyes if you get drunk enough and the majesty of the New York skyline always makes me feel like I've had six or more Long Island Iced Teas (I say six because it takes at least four of them to give me a buzz). September 11th made me turn cold sober real quick and left the most serious of hangovers. A world in which the ESB is the tallest building in New York seems upside down to say the least. I want to get drunk again and the only way that's going to happen is if they put something else up down there. New York needs a monster skyscraper in downtown for to be absent one is to turn the clock back two generations and being forced to live in the past out of fear for the future is not healthy for anybody; for the drunk and sober alike.
Eric Dale Smith
I agree. Actually I wish the whole WTC disaster was some kind of drunken dream. Unfortunately, it wasn't. It also makes you appreciate things we all take for granted. I think people liked the WTC before Sept 11 - after all these years they had finally won the hearts of NYers, and it felt like they will always be there. I remember a photo my father had taken of the WTC site from the Brooklyn Bridge while they were being built, and I always said, "Wow that's cool, NY before the WTC was built!" I never imagined that one day the same shot would look almost the same once again.
When I look at downtown from the Brooklyn Broadway El or approach New York on an Amtrak train from Baltimore, it is physically painfull to not see the Twin Towers. The Empire State Building dominated the New York skyline in my early childhood. It was never meant to do so in my adulthood and that I think is part of the tragedy of this thing. The Empire State Building represents biplanes, King Kong, and the Third Avenue El. The Twin Towers were part of the present, and their modernistic design was symbolic of things to come. Though I have been and always will be a huge fan of the ESB, it is representative of New York's past wheras the World Trade Center was representative of its future. That is why it will be missed.
Eric Dale Smith
Yo DOG! Howdy! Damned shame it is, many of us felt the same way when the 3rd avenue el came down too. And worst of all, it was fifth columnists in our own country that did it. What gets me though is that prior to 1993, most New Yorkers actually hated the blandness of the twins. They've become even more significant in their absence than they had been while they were there. I couldn't get over it myself when we came down.
Bob was on Channel 4 news after 6 PM tonight. He was being interviewed about his dream of a trolley line from Red Hook to downtown Brooklyn. Even some shots of the ex- MBTA PCC and street trackage under going construction were featured. Bob did alright in spreading the word that the time for a streetcar renaissance in Brooklyn is now. Hopefully a rich benefactor with deep pockets can lend some help. Did anybody catch it ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I caught the airing. Considering how Downtown Brooklyn is really taking the form of the downtown of the city that once was, the trolley is an idea that is past due. In fact, looking at the route plan, the trolley needs to be expanded when built.
Now, as far as benefactors are concerned, there are some out there. Unfortunatly, I don't think the Metropolitan Transportation Authority is one of them.
Considering how Downtown Brooklyn is really taking the form of the downtown of the city that once was
Now it's time to make Downtown Brooklyn into the downtown of a city that IS!
Yes, I caught the airing..a great idea indeed! Bob is definitely combining his love of the trolley cars with the need for more public transportation in the area...ROCK ON, BOB!! I hope you will find a benefactor soon. -Nick
While comming into PATH this morning I found my train waiting on a signal comming off the HACK draw. Well we proceeded adter waiting for a Westbound and crossed over to the W/B track. Heading through the initial JSQ rock cut I saw that the E/B track had been burried by a mudslide and a mob of MoW personell were struggling to clear it. Our train proceeded to wrong-rail into the JSQ terminal and then onto the correct platform.
It seems that our transit system has been struck by the seven plagues. What next? Locusts?
It seems that our transit system has been struck by the seven plagues.
For shame!! That's no way to talk about Sea Beach Fred's recent visit.
Not only that, on the NEC two Amtrak trains suffered problems that reduced their speed to 10mph. My NJT MU train had to thread through them.
It seems that our transit system has been struck by the seven plagues. What next? Locusts?
Would pigeons be a reasonable substitute?
Nah! In his town we get rats!
Must've been from the rain last night. It poured and there was a lot of flooding and some minor landslides.
PATH should do like the NYSDOT is doing on NY highways right now and net the rock cut in and around Journal Square station. It can only hold for so long before giving way, especially in the near century it has existed there.
It wasn't in the rock cut, it was just b4 it where a retaining wall was holding back a balasted slope. The wall gave way and was covered by earth and ballast stone about 3-4 feet deep. It knocked the 3rd rail all askew.
"It knocked the 3rd rail all askew."
Shocking
I have pics. I'll post them at some point.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have photographs of the accident that took place at the spur track just north of Tower "A" in Coney Island Yard back in February 1978. "B" car #1181 was on the north end of an 8-car yard move that collided with the bumping block due to computer glitches in the braking system. You guessed it, I was the Motorman. It took one hell of a battle but the TA finally exonerated me of all wrong doing.
Thanks in advance.
Bob
No pictures to offer, but some sympathy for what it's worth ... I had a "brown event" myself in 1971 in the same area with a set of R1/9's that suddenly had a surge (full release) as I was doing a layup. Kissed the leader at 3MPH and since I was a probie at the time, got the street. Glad to hear someone got cleared from one of those ...
We had a great time today roaming the rails in and around NYC. My trip started at Hamelton NEC station where I caught the 8:21 Express train into Newark. Along the way we were delayed by 2 Amtrak trains that due to defects were rescricted to 10mph. That had to sort of weave us in between the trains. At Newark I transfered to the PATH where I got a nice clean railfan window that I proceeded to take digital pics out of.
I need to shine the kudos light on PATH here for a while. PATH has and is continuing to use a seriously cool and hi-quality signaling system. There is not a pure electric device to be found anywhere on the system! Pneumatic trip arms, old A-5 pneumatic switches on the main line, new A-10 pneumatic switches in the Subway and SA-10 pneumatic machines in the yards. Those are REALLY rare. Furthermore, unlike Amtrak, SEPTA and the MTA there is no evidence of any pending conversion to cheap electric machines. GO PATH!
Anyway, I got into Pen Station at 10:11 where I found Pigs waiting for me. We bought Metrocards and took a 3 train to Times Sq. and then the shittle to Grand Central where we caught the 10:53 Diesel Express to Croton-Harmon. While leaving GCT I spotted a CDoT Genesis diesel train in the NH McGuinness paint. The MNRR Shoreliners were cool because the cab cars have a great railfan view (like SEPTA's). After Tullytown the C/R even proped the vestabule door open which give me perfectly clear shots out the railfan window. We were expecting to eat lunch at Croton-Harmon, but upon our arrival not a town or a bussiness district did we find so we took the first local back. Hanging out at C/H were some ACMU 1100's and a number of "alive" FL-9's, one in New Haven paint. Our local back was a Budd built M-3 and although we made all the local stops I had a great railfan view and took pictures of several interlocking towers and the INWOOD draw-bridge. We got off at 125th St. and after getting lunch at Taco Bell we caught a downtown 6 train to 68th st. so that Pigs could stop by a post office and forward his mail. We got back on the 6, a second R-142 and transfered to a 5 line R-142 at GCT. I noticed that the spear-o-vision on the R-142 is even worse than the R-143. Its disgusting and a damn shame that millions of NYCers will never get to experiance a face-to-glass subway ride.
After ditching the 542 at Bowling Green and watching the working of the US&S tower and A-10 switch machines there, we caught an R-62 on the 4 and took it to Atlantic Av. planning to x-fer to a 2 train. However at Atlantic we spotted a 4-Bird and rode it one stop to Nevins. I picked off a big chunk of paint as a souveneir. At Nevins we caught a 242 and rode that all the way to Times Square for this trip's primary attraction, a farewell ride on the Flushing Line. We picked up an express 7-bird right off the bat and although the railfan window had a lot of scratches it was enjoyable. We rode it out to FLushing and then caught the same train back to Shea Stadium. We got off the train and walked on the ramp that leads over carona yards where we proceeded to BOOO and spit at all the R-62's that were present. We then pondered over the point of the old turnstyles at the LIRR station. We got back on a 7 train and took it to Roosevelt Ave to change to an E train. The express E trip through Queens has been enhansed via new US&S signals painted black and silver. The incandesant lamps are simply BRILLIANT and light up the tunnel like Christmas. Even pigs was forced to admit how cool the express E railfan ride was. We got off the E at 7th Ave. where we came above ground at went to look for Rupert Gee's famous "Hello Deli" so often featured on the Late Show. Pigs ordered the "Shaffer". We ate our food at a plaza on 6th Ave and then walked back to the 50th St. station where we caught a fire voilation 1 train to Pig Station. At this point Pigs left me to fend off the crushing Penn Station crowds that occur b/t 5:30 and 6:00. After waiting in a 20 min TVM line I camped out by the big board and waited for my train, the 6:11 Super Express ("The Express Titanic), to come up. Well, several trains were delayed waiting for an ACELA to clear the tunnels and w/o trains to accept ppl. Penn Station went from crowded to jammed. When my train was called a sea of humanity flooded towards the track 4 staircase on both levels of the station. I managed to fight my way down to the platform and got a nice track-side window seat in the first car. My return trip remained on time and after depositing me at Hamelton I caught w/ my camera an Amtrak meet b/t an NE Direct and a long distance train.
Well that was our trip. comments are more than welcome. If you would like to attend one of our trips we are planning an LIRR trip for next month so please let us know.
"We got off the train and walked on the ramp that leads over carona yards where we proceeded to BOOO and spit at all the R-62's that were present"
I'm hoping this part is a joke; cause that is being disrespectful. -Nick
Of course it was a joke. Even Jersey Mike would know that the cars in Corona Yard were R-62A and not R-62.
We spit AT them, they were too far away to actually hit.
If someone tries to open the Subway Doors while rolling, will the the Train automatically apply brakes?
Nope. If someone does it manually and manages to open it enough that a guard light comes on (which I think is only possible if you're superman or there's a mechanical problem with the door), the T/O loses indication (and cannot take power) but can keep rolling.
If the C/R opens all the doors while zooming along at 45 the train still keeps rolling.
Now if everyone knew that C/Rs would probably get a bit more respect.
If you pull the door open after its closed and locked the train will not lose indication but the C/R may notice a clicking noise in the cab.
On old stock, if you yank the door hard enough to click over the panel sensor switch, the train will lose C/R and M/M indication. You haven't tried hard enough. Doesn't compare to snap switches though.
Dave, you are referring tot he 'push-back feature' that allows the doors to be parted by up to 3" after they are closed and locked (that's 1 1/2" per panel). In the highly unlikely event that you are able to go beyond that limit, you'll make up the PSS and drop out both indications.
I asked the Question about the doors because, yesterday I was on a Brooklyn-Bound C Train to Euclid Ave. and these kids from my school kept trying to scream out girls at Liberty Ave. and when he opened the Door, the Train slowed down, but when he closed the doors, it started back up again. This was on a R-38.
It was likely a coincidence. The R-38s have lock-bars on their door operators. In order to open locked side doors to a point where indication would be lost, the kids would have to bend steel door arms to get the doors open beyond the push-back limits. Once bent, they would not go back into place and the train would have been removed from service for no indication.
I was chilling with another railfan today and on the way back from LGA for some plane pics, we took a slant N from Astoria Blvd manhattan bound. You can't see speedometer right? This was our lucky day, two workers get on at QBP, knock on door and ask the M/M to stop at the end of the tunnel when he sees the two yellow lights so they can take them out of the tunnel. Through the tunnel the door was wide open, the freakin slant hit 59mph!!! This is how every tube should work (if there's a train close by then obviously ST should kick in), but after considering safety issues, this should be allowed across the board. Rants/raves/comments encouraged.
Go N Train
Kodak Moment (I imagine)
59.......that's nothing, when I was working the AM tour during my days as "Extra Extra", a motorman I worked with on the N, with a train consisting of R-68s, hit 63 in the tunnel. Now that was worthy of a few good raves!! Wow!! And another time while working the R, a train (R-46s) hit 61. In my opinion it's good to see there is still one good speedway in the system outside of the Lexington Avenue express (4,5) lines. I personally also think we should really go back to the days when rapid transit truly was RAPID transit.
61, 63????? Now that's speed for the NYC Subway, they should upgrade the Cranberry Tube, so the A & C Trains can hit those speeds. Does the MTA allow the N Train, to go that fast in the Tunnel???
they really dont allow it, but some timers dont really work as well, but u gotta know the secrets. for example, one timer that fools alot of rookie motormen on the A is the franklin avenue timer headed queens bound. rookies will enter franklin and hit the brakes because they see a yellow over illuminated S with a red behind it which is in vision. they do slow down and enter nostrand slowly. now a experienced motorman would, enter franklin, move controller to OFF, and just roll. signal dont even turn yellow. it just says red, then GREEN. it allows u to fly right into nostrand at around 47 or so. but TA dunno this. perfect example is queens plaza. its filled with Wheel detectors, blind trip arms, and timers. once upon a time u could fly into Queens plaza, till supervision had it adjusted. so if TA knew about 60th, they would adjust it
NYCT most definitely knows that the 60th Street Tubes are timed for a high rate of speed. Look at the "GT" signs before entering the tunnel, in either direction! And remember, neither tube is timed for its entire length.
David
If I'm not mistaking, the 60th st. tube is nothing but straight Track, right? I never rode the N to Astoria Blvd., so I don't know.
-AcelaExpress
If I'm not mistaking, isn't the 60th st. tube nothing but straight track? I never rode the N to Astoria Blvd before., so I don't know the whole story.
-AcelaExpress2005
Straight? The majority of it Queens to Manhattan is downhill!
Downhill???? That's why the N is capable of reaching those speeds, so if the N Train was to go to Queens-Bound, it wouldn't be able to reach those speeds, right? because it's uphill.
-AcelaExpress2005
The tunnel is a downgrade and upgrade on both sides. You need a good T/O to be able to fly past the timers.
I've seen 65 but it was just a prayer that the tripper would clear. I never saw a yellow signal, the tripper must have cleared as the anti-climber pasted over it. THAT WAS A HELL OF A RUN!!
I love the 14 Street Tube for that...
nah Ns and Rs reach VERY GOOD SPEEDS in there. i have seen R32 Ns hit 65 and R46 Rs hit at least 53mph. in BOTH directions. rush hours may not apply. see official motorman for details. LOL. but u must be careful, Timers are set at 50. a R motorman i know told me
I've hit 54mph once on my R till my C/R told me to slow down. If anyone wants to talk, im the 1138am departing 71av on tues
Why did the C/R tell you to slow down, aren't you the Train Operator and you call the shots, and isn't conductor only supposed to open & close doors, etc.?
Actually, he wasn't telling me to slow down but just commenting how fast I'm goin.
Oh Ok, You contact the C/R through the Radio, correct? Or is it a built in Train Radio System to contact only the C/R?
C/R said it on the PA, loud enough so that all the passengers could hear and start panicking, "Hey, Speedy Gonzalez...i mean Mr. T/O, you doing 55 there." There is no built in train radio system and if my C/R told me on the radio, 57st tower would've heard.
Why did he have to say it over the PA. Didn't your C/R ever hear of something called an IC?
WHat I meant by Built in Radio System, was just a communication between you and the C/R only.
Tell your C/R to pipe down. If he wants to run the train tell him to take the test.
The Conductor is in charge of the train.
David
That may be true of the LIRR and Metro North but to a much lesser degree in the TA. Yes, he has the responsiblity of stopping the train when dangerous and serious situations present themselves. But I'm sure I'd be hard-pressed to find a high percentage of Conductors that know the correct speed of a train at a given location, the meaning of signal aspects, reading switches, etc. Whereas, in theory the Conductor is in charge of the train, it's the Motorman (I'm dating myself) who has the ultimate responsibility of guiding his train from one terminal to the next in a safe and efficient manner.
Perhaps a clarification - I assume what was 30 years ago is still true today ... the conductor is responsible for the safety of the PASSENGERS whereas the motorman is responsible for the safe operation of the train itself. In the event of an evacuation or other emergency, the conductor has the responsibility. At least that's the way it was. I'll bet it hasn't changed.
A fast disclaimer, "motorman" was the title back in my day - no sexism intended ...
That still holds true. I don't know how many times they told me I was in charge of the train.
How many times did you have to PINCH yourself? Heh. And how many times have you told your T/O, "that's it, you're OUTTA there?" :)
All the time!Heh.
That's the spirit ... your coworkers will nominate you for a TSS position in no time. :)
Yeah they are already rushing me to come up front.
I've been doing it too ... c'mon, guy ... you REALLY ARE with it enough to do it ... whether you WANNA is another story of course. Hell, you'd even make it in B division.
I'm going to take the Next T/O Promotion Exam. I hope they keep me on the IRT.
Well, your first pick out isn't necessarily what you want, but I'm sure you'll find your way back. Seems these days a whole "class" is destined for one division or the other but then again, ya never know.
You DID say once that you'd like to check out the other side of da fence. :)
Yes I want to check out B Div but not as a Probationary T/O. Whatever happens I'll deal with it.
Heh. Looks like my footsteps still glow in the dark at Stillwell. :)
CIs had a short pick duration of about two months and a lot bailed out to their previous locations/slots/RDOs. Sometimes you have to find an 'Elmer' or 'Rebbe' for advice. I learn and absorb the practicals fast driving instructors crazy...my HVAC instructor said 'I remember you.' I cringed...then he told me not to make any changes and to stay where I am. Your time on the job, your experience and moving up in seniority as others retire/go to street means you earn respect and value to the system. The 'mistake' of transferring to greener pastures usually lasts only for the pick...we learn from our mistakes...then we find our place. CI Peter
Really??
I've hit 54mph once on my R till my C/R told me to slow down. If anyone wants to talk, im the 1138am departing 71av on tues
Jay Street, come take me away!
Intervals and perceived rule violations in the same post create potential problems for employees. Lets try not to do that again.
Except there doesn't seem to be a rule violation here. Once the train passes the last timer, there's no speed limit in the 60th Street Tunnel, and if the train were going too fast through the timed area it would be tripped anyway.
David
I'd like to see A trains go that fast along CPW.
Ever see a subway train go over 75 MPH? It was NOT in New York :-)
man ! dat' would have made an Xlnt video .....!!!!
saw an old video here on the so called future transit attack etc....... ( oh well ) .......
was a old video of some station called WHITEHALL ???
???
saw an old video taken back in the 1980s' or so.....
....a bunch of r 44s with a blue stripe on em .....at the "whitehall station"..????
were is dat ' ???
at the "whitehall station"..????
were is dat ' ???
Whitehall St is the last stop in Downtown Manhattan on the Broadway Line. It is currently served by the N and R trains, but the N, as Fred never ceases to remind us, shouldn't really go there (something about rat infestation?).
is it still called by that name ???......ok..
i guess so but i could not see it on de' map ....my glasses ..!!
>>>>>lol!!
Yes, it is still called by that name although South Ferry has been added to pillar signs.
I was looking through the photos of a website that had pictures of the trains being produced at a Japanese Kawasaki plant.
First I saw was the KCRC West Rail train (Thanks to Cha-Hwo Chen for pointing out to me that the trains AREN'T being built by Kinisharyo), then the R142s (Yes, it said R142 explicitly, not R143!), and then the letters MBTA, and some double deck cars being built.
Does Boston have an order of double decker trains with Kawasaki? If you know, please reply ASAP. Knowledge of if they have been delivered a plus.
-J!
P.S. If anyone want to check it out for themselves, I will give you the address. To see the pictures is easy, but reading the text will require knowledge of Japanese, unless you can identify trains easily.
> First I saw was the KCRC West Rail train (Thanks to Cha-Hwo
> Chen for pointing out to me that the trains AREN'T being built
> by Kinisharyo), then the R142s (Yes, it said R142 explicitly, not
> R143!), and then the letters MBTA, and some double deck cars
> being built.
> Does Boston have an order of double decker trains with
> Kawasaki? If you know, please reply ASAP. Knowledge of if
> they have been delivered a plus.
John,
As for the NYC Subway cars at the Kawasaki plant in Hyogo, Japan, you are partially right and I am right, too. I should have looked at the photos in 2001. In the April 2001 photos, they are indeed R142A cars (R142 cars made by Bombardier). Because I only read the photos in 2002, what I saw in April and May 2002 photos are indeed R143 cars.
You can go to the New England Transportation Site to read the roster of MBTA commuter equipment for details. You won't be disappointed.
Chaohwa
Kawasaki has built the bi-level commuter rail coaches for the MBTA. Most recently, there was an order for 15 trailer coaches.
First there were the 'not quite scale' MTH R-42 D trains. Then the same for R-42 E GOH which never ran on the E line. They were followed by the Redbird R-21 and the Blue-stripe R-17. While closer to scale and a vast improvement over their predecessors, each deviated from the prototype in noticable ways.
Last night I spoke to my friend, Mike, a great collector of Lionel (and a TA supervisor). We both have the R-36 "World's Fair" sets on order. However, last night he told me something that muted the joy of the immenent release of this long anticipated set.
Mike saw the prototype cars at York, Pa. and spotted the latest MTH ooops right away. He told Mike Wolfe about it. Now the question is, will MTH correct the error before production begins.
The error? The four cars will be numbered 9629-9628 and 9404-940, indicating R-36 linked units. However, MTH used the molds for single car units and left the end signs and markers on the 'blind' ends.
My friend suggested that MTH, rather than change the mold, change the paint job slightly, change the car numbers and produce 4 R-33WF cars instead of the linked units. Will MTH make this change or will they go ahead with production and give us all a reason to love the R-36s just a little less? My gut feeling is that with no delay to MTH's production schedule, the latter will be the case.
Was the "prototype" you saw the one with the squared-off side windows and the R-21-ish storm-door window? This model had been displayed at other shows before.
As far as thre being "no delay in MTH's production schedule"---when has THAT ever happened? When are they ever on time?
The latest delay is that R-17 add-on car set---and this is for a set where the molds, decals, and paint scheme have already been produced!!!
BTW...I'm sure you're aware of the other big upcoming "oops"---the work train set. Un-prototype diesel locomotive, tank car, searchlight car, and crane car, with an R-21 rider car thrown in. I had a set on order and cancelled it. About a year ago, I repainted an SW-1500 yellow (there is no loco for sale that looks like the MTA's diesels, so I took some license), bought some used flatcars, gondolas, and hoppers, and started to make a work train (I haven't finished it yet--low priority). I plan to get some extra R-17's and make one a rider car. My home-made set will be A LOT cheaper than the MTH set.
"there is no loco for sale that looks like the MTA's diesels, so I took some license"
Take a look at a K-line S-2. It ain't perfect but it ain't so bad either.
>>JUNE 04TH, 2002
Throughout the week, NY1 is focusing on the rebuilding of lower Manhattan. Today, NY1's Arthur Chi’en takes a look at transportation, and the opportunity for a fresh start downtown.
Through disaster, opportunity is born. Since September 11, transportation officials have been focused on rebuilding and improving the intricate road and subway network in downtown Manhattan.
A great deal of progress has been made already. West Street has reopened, and so too has the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel.
While ferry service has doubled, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority scrambled to keep subway and bus service on line.
Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers Campaign is on the Transportation Advisory Committee of the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, and works blocks from the disaster site.
“They've restored virtually all the subway lines, and a lot of bus service that wasn't coming in here is coming in now and is serving the World Financial Center, which reopened recently,” said Russianoff.
Transportation experts say the biggest surprise to this point has been the success of the carpooling requirement, which began on all crossings south of 60th Street and continues in lower Manhattan today.
Meanwhile, plans are proceeding for a massive downtown transportation hub which would connect existing subway lines to the New Jersey PATH train, and possibly the long-sought Second Avenue subway.
Still, in the short-term, the MTA continues to shuffle local and express service on the 1 and 9 lines because tunnels were crushed by the collapse of the towers.
“It was very difficult,” said Andrew Albert of the Transit Riders Council. “A lot of the trains weren't running as advertised, they were being switched from locals to expresses and vice versa, and you needed a scorecard to see if your train was going to get to your destination.”
In rebuilding the 1 and 9 tunnels, the MTA is taking on the most aggressive rebuilding project in its history: working around the clock to the tune of $1 million a day.
The agency originally said the work would be finished by the end of November.
Given the fact that the 1, 2, 3 and 9 lines carry well over 500,000 riders a day, restoring it has become a top priority at the MTA. Officials there now tell NY1 they aim to finish the repair job not one month early, but two months ahead of schedule.
The MTA says it is looking to have the subway lines back in time for the one-year anniversary of September 11. However, it would be a bittersweet success.
- Arthur Chi’en <<
I know a lot of people who has talked about this and it looks like it's finally set to come true. If I may I would like to see everyone else's comments.
Well if it has anything to do with this post, the A division is set to pick again on August 5. I guess to go start along with the B division.
Does anybody know when Rector on the N/R is going to re-open?
Also, there isn't any talk about re-naming a station to "Ground Zero" is there?
u mean Cortlandt Street right? Rector has been open since October 2001.
Whoops. Yeah.
I just wish they would stop calling it the 1 and 9 lines tunnel. The 9 is a mistake that never should have been born. Let us hope that the TA will use this oppurtunity to let the 9 die a quite death.
hey the 9's purpose is to provide extra service and to ease overcrowding.if the 9 never exsisted,the 1 would be jammed packed just as bad as the lexington lines always are.even if the skip-stop doesnt save a whole lot,it should return for helping purposes.
The 9's purpose was to provide a faster ride for the majority of passengers by having trains skip relatively lightly used stops (the 1 skipped some, the 9 skipped others, and they both stopped at the rest). (Whether it accomplished that feat or not is questionable.) The trains that were signed up as 9s could just as easily have been signed up as 1s, with every train making all stops. A second benefit (at least for NYCT) is that with the service being faster due to skipping stops, the same amount of service could be provided with fewer trainsets.
David
The 9's purpose was to provide a faster ride for the majority of passengers by having trains skip relatively lightly used stops (the 1 skipped some, the 9 skipped others, and they both stopped at the rest)...A second benefit (at least for NYCT) is that with the service being faster due to skipping stops, the same amount of service could be provided with fewer trainsets.
The 1/9 timetable for April 1996 shows the differential between skip-stop and all-stop operation in running time to be 2 minutes and the minimum headway to be 3 minutes for all stop stations. It would be very difficult to justify either of these "benefits" based on these numbers.
I never said it accomplished those goals...
David
(Whether it accomplished that feat or not is questionable.)
I don't see how it's questionable at all, unless the passengers who board at some stops are considered more important than the passengers who board at others. Skip-stop was an interesting experiment but it failed on the upper Broadway line. See my analysis of 1/9 skip-stop, posted to Usenet in April: my conclusion is that, treating time waiting on the platform for a train to stop as no different from time waiting on a train, the average passenger loses at least 12 seconds from skip-stop operation. (Followup discussion is in this subthread.)
Actually, I had Mr. Greenberger's comments in mind when I posted mine...whether the #9 did what NYCT wanted it to do was questionable in my estimation because Mr. Greenberger was questioning it!
David
I never knew my posts had such influence! Is my analysis reasonably complete, aside from the point someone raised later in the thread that 181st was closed for a few months in 1999? What IRT service plans are currently under consideration for September (or whenever the line to South Ferry reopens)?
The #1 will be going back to South Ferry. I don't know if #9 service will return. Everything else is slated to go back where it was (10-car trains will stay on the #3, though -- that was supposed to happen anyway).
As to the analysis, the substance of it wasn't the issue for me. The issue for me was that someone (Mr. Greenberger) had stated that he thought the #9 didn't work -- that was enough for me to realize there still wasn't unanimous support for it (I used to get complaints about it when I was in Customer Services and it was relatively new, ten or so years ago).
David
Thank you.
Will the pre-9/11 1/2/3 schedules be restored (modulo the skip-stop question), or will adjustments be made? By now, I think most regular participants on this board are tired of my complaints about West Side IRT local service -- but it's obvious (from a glance at the numbers or from a glance at the trains and platforms, whichever you prefer) that the pre-9/11 schedules hugely shortchanged the local stations between 96th and 42nd, and the standard method of dealing with the delays caused every day by the insufficient service is to send some locals express, shortchanging the local stations even more. (I saw something today I've never seen before: a 3 stopping at 66th, not due to a GO, not due to a blockage on the express track, but, as far as I could tell, simply to fill in a large gap in local service. But then, of the following four or five scheduled locals, two 1's zipped up the express track.)
There really needs to be a change. I don't care if it's done by simply running more 1's (if 242nd can handle them), or by adding service that short-turns at 137th or Dyckman, or by sending some 2's and/or 3's onto the express track between 96th and 42nd, but for a sequence of five local stations of which the least busy saw 4,930,211 fares in 1999 (according to your post), 12 tph northbound in the afternoon rush (as per the August 2001 1/9 timetable) just isn't enough, and 9 tph (after subtracting approximately 3 tph of 1/9's that run express) is a cruel joke. Please don't let the situation revert to the way it was before 9/11.
If the capacity of 242st street is the limiting factor on the Broadway Local, then some trains (maybe call them the (9) train) can relay at Dyckman Street.
Such a service may also allow rush direction express service between 145th Street and 96th Street.
Thus I might run the line like this:
242 Street (1)
238 Street (1)
231 Street (1)
225 Street (1)
215 Street (1)
207 Street (1)
Dyckman St (1) (9)
191 Street (1) (9)
181 Street (1) (9)
168 Street (1) (9)
157 Street (1) (9)
145 Street (1) (9) (Downtown) / (9) Only uptown
137 Street (9)
125 Street (9)
116 Street (9)
110 Street (9)
103 Street (9)
96th St and all stops to South Ferry (1) (9)
Elias
My only major objection to that plan is that the stops between 103rd and 137th are busier than the stops between 157th and Dyckman; the former shouldn't have less service than the latter.
A minor objection is confusion over 137th and 145th. Since 137th is a particularly busy stop, just begin/end the express run there in either direction.
"Since 137th is a particularly busy stop, just begin/end the express run there in either direction."
That would work fine.
"My only major objection to that plan is that the stops between 103rd and 137th are busier than the stops between 157th and Dyckman"
Yes, but there is no third track between 145th and Dyckman.
I was responding to a post r/t insufficient capacity between 96th and 42nd Street, so what I am porposing is additional service, if that is not enough service for 103-137, than I'm afraid they will all have to be locals, but boy that express track is tempting.
Maybe if we keep the (1) service running at the maximum capacity of 242nd St, and we just add some (9)s to short turn at Dyckman Street, these could run express between 137th and 96th, although it is likely that their attempts a merging would slow things down too much when trying to push that line to maximum capacity that the efort might not be worth it.
Elias
There is no need to use a track just because it exists. Look at what happened to the W express in Queens -- it failed, because, due to the ridership patterns of the line, it was more useful to run the W local than express.
I suspect that would be the case on the upper 1 line as well, where as one progresses up the line, stations get less and less busy. On some lines, the last stop is a popular destination; on the 1, it's but a minor blip.
It would be best to avoid running more service north of 137th than between 96th and 137th. That could be done by running all trains local, or that could be done by terminating locals at 137th rather than at Dyckman. (Don't get me wrong -- it's not the end of the world to overserve a few stations as long as no stations are underserved. It is a bit awkward, though, and it tempts the TA to adjust schedules so the overserved stations are only slightly overserved, even if it means that other stations end up slightly underserved, and I want to avoid that.)
Ok, so we are all agreed:
The (1) runs local 242nd Street to SF at all times, and
the (9) runs local 137th Street to SF, when? Days? Rush? Extended Rush?
And who is toing to tell the MTA of our decission?
Elias : )
There's no need to give them different numbers, since nobody will end up in the wrong place by taking the wrong train -- the worst that will happen is that some will have to get off at 137th and wait for the next train.
The supplemental short-turns are primarily needed rush hours. Midday crowding is usually not a problem, but weekend evenings (yes, weekend evenings) can get bad. This isn't a new service that would be listed separately on the map; the timetable would simply indicate which trains run through and which terminate at 137th (or Dyckman, if appropriate), and that could include a few on weekends or at other odd times.
Another option for weekends (and middays, if necessary) is to send some 3's local between 42nd and 96th. That might be preferable as it wouldn't overserve the local stops south of 42nd, which are very quiet outside of rush hours.
The (1) runs local 242nd Street to SF at all times, and
the (9) runs local 137th Street to SF, when? Days? Rush? Extended Rush?
I'm afraid you have run into NYCT's new relay fumigation policy. This policy requires that all trains prior to a relay must have their cars thoroughly inspected to prevent any passengers from being on a train prior to a relay. This process takes approximately 4 minutes to complete and thereby limits service levels to 15 tph which would be a service reduction.
The TA's policy of running everything to 242nd St limits service levels to the capacity of the 242nd St stub terminal which is around 20 tph.
>This policy requires that all trains prior to a relay must have >their cars thoroughly inspected to prevent any passengers from being >on a train prior to a relay. This process takes approximately 4 >minutes to complete and thereby limits service levels to 15 tph >which would be a service reduction.
Thank you. That also assumes you don't have too many crazies.
You also have to think politically. It would go over like a lead balloon cutting service to Harlem and Washington Heights by terminating at 137. You might get away with a few scheduled skips from 242 to Dyckman in the reverse traffic direction but that is about it.
Friday nights I used to work 207 yard and take the 1. Even around 11:30 pm I could not get a seat until Dyckman or 191 so there are folks up there.
"This process takes approximately 4 minutes to complete and thereby limits service levels to 15 tph which would be a service reduction. "
No NO,it doesn't have to.
You hire ten goons with rubber hoses, and they empty that sucker in sixty seconds or less!
"This process takes approximately 4 minutes to complete and thereby limits service levels to 15 tph which would be a service reduction."
What does this have to do with the 1/9?
The stub terminal at 242nd doesn't require clearing out the cars. Neither does the loop at South Ferry.
You could do 20 tph to 242nd and maybe 5 to 137th.
"What does this have to do with the 1/9?
The stub terminal at 242nd doesn't require clearing out the cars. Neither does the loop at South Ferry.
"
If you back up a few posts you will find out that we were talking about making a short turn at 137th Street or at Dyckman street in order to run more trains on this line than can be accomodated by the 242St terminal alone.
And I am sure that there is still some way that we could do it at 137th Street if we put our minds to it.
Elias
Turning at 137th would require cleaning the train which would plug the followers.
For starters, 15 tph would not be a service reduction. According to the (public) August 2001 1/9 timetable, 1/9 service operated at a maximum of 15 tph, and that was only northbound(!) in the morning rush. Afternoon rush hour service was limited to 12 tph in either direction. An increase to 15 tph wouldn't be great but it would be better than nothing.
I'm also not sure how you get 15 tph as your limit. Looking through the system: The midday 4/5 run at a combined headway of about 18 tph. The C/E operate at a combined headway of about 21 tph (think of Canal before WTC was reopened). The F/G operate at a combined headway of about 22 tph. The J/M/Z operate at a combined headway of about 19 tph. So why couldn't couldn't total service, with some trains short-turning, operate at up to 22 tph, like the F and G at Smith-9th?
Besides, Elias is right. How long it takes to empty out a train is a function of how many people are emptying out the train. Throw enough platform conductors at the problem and it ceases to be a problem (from a scheduling standpoint -- it's an added expense, of course).
And even if you insist of 4 minutes to clear a train, and 3 minutes to turn a train at a stub terminal, you can still run 20 tph to 242nd St and 5 tph to 137th. The latter 5 tph take up the space of two equivalent trains that proceed further.
For starters, 15 tph would not be a service reduction. According to the (public) August 2001 1/9 timetable,
That schedule shows that the minimum headway for the combined 1/9 service to be 3 minutes, which is 20 tph. I agree that this is not sufficient.
I'm also not sure how you get 15 tph as your limit.
It's caused by the excessive dwell time required before a train can relay.
The midday 4/5 run at a combined headway of about 18 tph.
I've observed the Bowling Green operation in detail. This is what happens. First, the #4 operates on 5 minute headways and the #5 operates on 10 minute headways. This is an example of poor scheduling because there is no way that uniform headways can be maintained throughout both routes without delays.
What happens at Bowling Green is that the #5's are scheduled to arrive immediately after a #4. It takes its 4 minutes to unload and should depart before the next #5 arrives. It usually does not and delays the follower, although the tower's inability to throw the switch from the loop track to the tunnel as soon as the #4 clears is another cause for the delay. The penalty is that the Lex express service is effectively 12 tph and not the 18 tph they are operating.
The C/E operate at a combined headway of about 21 tph
This does not fall into the category because none of the trains relays. There is no exagerated dwell time. The limit exclusive of terminals is 40 tph. The limit at the WTC terminal is 20 tph. However, the C's move from the local to the express before the terminal.
The F/G operate at a combined headway of about 22 tph.
It's actually 21 tph (15 F's and 6 G's). The published schedules do not give sufficient information to see if they pull the same trick as at Bowling Green. However, the short trains on the G's mean that 4 minutes dwell time should not be required before the relay.
The J/M/Z operate at a combined headway of about 19 tph.
The last time I regularly used this line during rush hours the #15's were almost always delayed by #5's merging into Chambers St. My guess is that there are delays at Broad St because of the unbalanced schedules between the J/Z and the M.
Throw enough platform conductors at the problem and it ceases to be a problem (from a scheduling standpoint -- it's an added expense, of course).
Mr. Train Dude already commented on the inappropriateness of TA personnel meeting passengers on the trains during a relay operation. Such contact could be avoided by having 4 reserve T/O's at each relay terminal. I think the cost would be less than 10 platform conductors.
That schedule shows that the minimum headway for the combined 1/9 service to be 3 minutes, which is 20 tph. I agree that this is not sufficient.
My copy of the schedule shows "every 3-6 minutes" SB in the morning rush, "every 3-5 minutes" NB in the morning rush, "every 4-6 minutes" SB in the afternoon rush, and "every 4-6 minutes" NB in the afternoon rush. I don't see any sustained 3-minute headways; I'm assuming averages of 4.5 minutes, 4 minutes, 5 minutes, and 5 minutes, respectively. Sustained 4-minute headways (15 tph) would be an improvement over the current schedule -- in the afternoon rush, certainly, and that's when the problems seem to be worse, IME.
Perhaps someone with the more detailed train-by-train timetables could give more accurate numbers.
[The C/E operate at a combined headway of about 21 tph]
This does not fall into the category because none of the trains relays. There is no exagerated dwell time. The limit exclusive of terminals is 40 tph. The limit at the WTC terminal is 20 tph. However, the C's move from the local to the express before the terminal.
For about four months (October 2001-January 2002), the E terminated at Canal and relayed at WTC.
Mr. Train Dude already commented on the inappropriateness of TA personnel meeting passengers on the trains during a relay operation. Such contact could be avoided by having 4 reserve T/O's at each relay terminal. I think the cost would be less than 10 platform conductors.
Agreed, but, for better or for worse, the current rules require that the train be cleared. I agree that those rules create an expense, quite possibly an unnecessary or unwarranted one, but it doesn't stand in the way of running 25-30 tph on the 1 with alternate trains terminating at 137th.
"Mr. Train Dude already commented on the inappropriateness of TA personnel meeting passengers on the trains during a relay operation."
I must not have read this piece. Why is this?
Elias
How about this radical service plan, at least for rush hours:
1 (9 tph): Exactly as now, except express 96th Street to Chambers Street.
2 (8 tph): Exactly as now, except express 96th Street to Chambers Street.
3 (3 tph): Exactly as now, but extended to New Lots Avenue.
9 (20 tph): 96th Street to South Ferry, local.
The 9 would relay on the middle track north of 96th. The 1 and 9 would merge briefly, but combined service would be 29 tph and the 9's scheduling wouldn't be critical as long as it cleared the NB local platform within three minutes.
I like it, but throw us a bone up in the Bronx, I think 9 trains per hours north of 137 is a more than a little light. As Wannabe1 said, ridership is pretty heavy up until Dyckman, just about anytime. Now maybe if you want to work in the old Bronx Thru Express, we would be on to something.
I think it would take a lot of public education to get people off at 96 street. Many Many people go to 103 thru 137, I think you would have a problem both physically getting them off the train and then politically, that are between 96 and 116 is quite gentrified and Columbia is there.
I think you are on the right track; on the north end of the line, less may be more. Right now, VCP gets horribly backed up most nights, recently they had trains backed up beyond 215, amazing. )Do trained monkeys run that terminal?) If less trains went there, we may save time overall with the end of the waits to get into each station above 215.
I think 9 tph in the Bronx is certainly sufficient, although you might have to stand. I'm more worried about the busier section between 96th and 137th, which would also have 9 tph. Before 9/11, all we got in the afternoon rush down here at the local stops between 42nd and 96th was 9 tph or so discounting skips. Then again, it would be cruel and unusual punishment to wish that sort of crowding on others.
(A Bronx thru express would be impossible, seeing as the 1 would be the only line to run up Broadway north of 96th at all. Do you want there to be no service at all between 96th and 137th? Or do you want only 4.5 tph at those stations, which are much busier than yours? Unless the goal is to overserve some stations and/or underserve others, an express run only makes sense in conjunction with short-turning locals.)
Given the routing I suggested, there are two constraints: first, the 1 and 9 can't exceed 30 tph combined, since they share trackage just north of 96th; second, the 1, 2, 3, and Flatbush 5 can't exceed 30 tph combined, since they share trackage just south of Franklin. (This is the infamous Rogers junction, where only the local tracks connect to line to Flatbush, so any 5 to or from Flatbush eats up a slot on the West Side line even though it doesn't run on the West Side line for more than a few carlengths. The 5's to Utica and New Lots don't get in the way.) I have 29 tph on the 1 and 9 combined and 20 tph on the 1, 2, and 3 combined, and as you can see, I don't have much leeway. The underlying problem with my proposal is that the IRT lines are more Bronx-oriented than Brooklyn-oriented. By feeding the Brooklyn south terminals into one more north terminal, I'm decreasing the maximum service possible at all the north terminals except on the 6.
The reason I picked 96th as the 9 terminal is so that 9 trains could be cleared out on the local track without interfering with through service, which would all be on the express track. An advantage is that passengers from points north of 96th would have direct express service south of 96th; a disadvantage is that they wouldn't have direct local service south of 96th. Much moreso than on other lines, I do think this is a significant disadvantage, both because of stations like 50th that are busy commuter destinations that happen to be local stops and because of the major role the 1 line plays in tying together the extended Upper West Side neighborhood.
Yes, my proposal is fundamentally flawed in more ways than one, and I'm not proposing it seriously. But I think it is an interesting arrangement to think about. Incidentally, since my home station is 86th, I'd get a seat about as frequently as I have to stand nowadays (i.e., pretty much always).
I think 242 can handle the trains. When the 1 goes back to SF, there will be less trainsets needed than now. The other trainsets will go back to the 3 for service back to New Lots.
I don't follow. The bursting point on the line was never in lower Manhattan (not in the past ten years, at least). Service before 9/11 was insufficient at the bursting point. How can you suggest reducing service because of changes in lower Manhattan when lower Manhattan is not the relevant section of the line?
Like I said before, the extra trains will go back to Lenox for 3 service back to Bklyn. I never said anything about reducing/increasing service on the 1 line.
I just wish they would stop calling it the 1 and 9 lines tunnel. The 9 is a mistake that never should have been born. Let us hope that the TA will use this oppurtunity to let the 9 die a quite death.
Even if the skip-stop service is not useful in practical terms, which certainly seems to be the case, I'd suggest retaining the 9 designation for certain Seventh Avenue locals. Somehow, getting rid of a train designation doesn't seem right - I can't really explain it, but it rankles me.
You do realize that the 9 designation didn't even make it to age 15, don't you?
Without the 9 designation, the three IRT trunk lines have nice number groupings: 1-2-3, 4-5-6, 7.
What about 3.5 for 7av local? haha- confusion will erupt all over the west side
Just add more (1) service sincee it won't be running on the same track as any other trains (2 nor 3)
I would restore express service north on 96th street on the no. 1 line. Some local trains could originate in the 137th street yard, and an equal number could by-pass 137 to 96th street on the center track. Same is true up at the north end, some trains can run local to Dykman Street, (and then express from 137 to 96) and others can run express to Dykman and then make the local stops to 96th st.
So you can have your cake and eat it too, providing you sat down at the right table.
Elias
Kudos to the MTA for getting the tunnel finished so quickly. :-)
It'll be nice to have full West Side IRT express service back, since those express runs were just awesome. Too bad all the redbirds on the 2 will be gone by then, most of them are gone as it is.
The MTA says it is looking to have the subway lines back in time for the one-year anniversary of September 11. However, it would be a bittersweet success.
Yeah, it shouldn't have been damaged to begin with..........if not for the morons that felt they needed to do this horrendous act.
Stop with the euphemism.
It's a massacre, committed by mass murderers. I'm sick of hearing of it being called a tragedy. Or merely just an act.
A tragedy would be an earthquake, a hurricane, or a pilot who had a seizure and crashed a plane into something.
I have a question in regards to the rebuilding of the tunnel that the # 1 trains use. I hope this doesn't sound off the wall but as of now you have this giant hole where the WTC complex was. When subway service is restored is this going to be a tunnel or is the train going to be going out in the open in that giant whole hole when it gets to that point? As I said please bear with me on that point I picture this big complex with the subway lines going underneath the WTC complex which is not there now.
There have been pictures in all the papers.
The 1/9 runs on top of a dike, so to speak, with a sharp drop-off to east and west to the former cellars of the WTC buildings.
On top of this dike they are smoothing the ROW and then laying concrete. On top of this concrete they are putting a rectangular frame of steel, maybe 20' wide and 16' high.
It will be very easy to cover this steel frame with a strong ceiling so that when future work on surrounding buildings starts, they don't have interrupt service while to build protection against something dropping on a train.
So it looks almost 100% certain that the tracks wll be covered, and probably even enclosed on all sides.
It looked to me like part of the new subway tunnel already has solid walls. Then again, it's not very easy to see exactly what's going on from my vantage point (riding the M20 on West St). Personally I wish they had just rebuilt the tracks out in the open and skipped the tunnel construction. That way when whatever is built above it is built, a new station could be built around it in a modern, spacious style with lots of open sight lines and maybe light from the outside.
It looked to me like part of the new subway tunnel already has solid walls. Then again, it's not very easy to see exactly what's going on from my vantage point (riding the M20 on West St). Personally I wish they had just rebuilt the tracks out in the open and skipped the tunnel construction. That way when whatever is built above it is built, a new station could be built around it in a modern, spacious style with lots of open sight lines and maybe light from the outside.
That probably could be done. Removing the tunnel's solid walls no doubt would be a very minor expense compared to rebuilding the entire WTC site. I too would like to see an "open design" station if possible.
I doubt there will be light from the outside in the long run. The PA has a pre-9/11 contract with a retail management organization from Australia (I forget the name) that gives this organization the right to a very large amount of retail space on the WTC site. This is likely to be multiple levels and closely linked in with the various transportation facilities.
"The 1/9 runs on top of a dike, so to speak, with a sharp drop-off to east and west to the former cellars of the WTC buildings. "
The bathtub is only to the west of the 1/9th line, it is not to the east. There might be a hole there, but not the 7 story drop that is to the west.
(AFIK) Elias
"There might be a hole there, but not the 7 story drop that is to the west."
Exactly. 4 and 5 WTC did have cellars, just not as deep as the bathtub. But their cellars are quite a bit lower than the trackbed of the 1/9.
Exactly. 4 and 5 WTC did have cellars, just not as deep as the bathtub. But their cellars are quite a bit lower than the trackbed of the 1/9.
Wasn't the cellar of the southern one the site of the old Hudson Terminal (PATH) station?
Also remember that the entire WTC was dug out and built around the original line without interupting service. The line is in the same spot where it was when the line was originally built in the teens.
If you look at the "hole" today, you can see the "box" the 1/9 tracks will be running through under construction.
One odd sight from ground zero that I witnessed last week was looking through the rear enterence from the southbound platform at Cortland St on the BMT. For those of you who were familiar with the WTC, this exit led directly into the WTC concourse. After N/R service was restored in late October, this exit had been boarded up. But last Wednesday, as I creeped through the station on an R train, the boards were gone and I could see directly into the hole, as the sun shined right through the enterance and into the station itself. It was a rather solemn sight.
i know this exit very well as i used it every day when i worked at WTC building 4 during the summer of 2001. i also noticed the light coming through and it put a lump in my throat. I remember thinking to myself, "That's not right at all." At least things are progressing.
This is fantastic news.
MTA is to be congratulated.
Does anyone know if ADA improvements are included?
"Does anyone know if ADA improvements are included?"
The American Diabetic Association has no complaints with it.
; ) Elias
Now that the work at Ground Zero is over above ground is complete. When will the South Ferry branch reopen to the (1) again? Keeping in mind that IRT Cortlandt St. Station will not be rebuilt with the current contract.
See here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=339041
Now that the work at Ground Zero is over above ground is complete. When will the South Ferry branch reopen to the (1) again? Keeping in mind that IRT Cortlandt St. Station will not be rebuilt with the current contract, but it will be rebuilt with a separate contract though.
I usually agree with Anna Quindlen, the Newsweek columnist, about a quarter of the time.
But she's onto something in the June 3rd issue:
"To honor a tragedy of this magnitude requires a response of comparable magnitude....But maybe, looking at the flattened plain where once so many worked and where so many died the answer is to honor the emptiness by leaving it a mute memorial. Are we a people so pinched of heart that we would trade memory for real estate? If so the terrorists really have won."
Anna Quindlen also mentions one of the proposed developments: the world's tallest building and a memorial dominated by two statues of women representing History and Memory, once holding a tablet, the other a torch. "It is impossible to believe that anyone who thinks this event should be commemorated with a skyscraper and classical statuary has any idea what happened to that place, or this country."
She even alluded to Jacqueline Kennedy's comment on Nov. 22, 1963. She wiped her husband's blood from her face. "I shoiuld have left it there...let them see what they've done."
The WTC 16 acre site should not be a playground for developers and architects who have suddenly found a gigantic new toy in their back yard. Build somewhere else. The WTC site should be a memorial forever.
("To honor a tragedy of this magnitude requires a response of comparable magnitude....But maybe, looking at the flattened plain
where once so many worked and where so many died the answer is to honor the emptiness by leaving it a mute memorial. Are
we a people so pinched of heart that we would trade memory for real estate? If so the terrorists really have won.")
We as a people? She lives in L.A.! New York is a very poor city and a very poor state supported by one concentration of wealth -- Manhattan, both those living there and those (living in the suburbs and) working there. The rest of the state, and the rest of the country, such a lot of money out of here, given our actual situation. Without that real estate, our economy and public services collapse.
Quildlen seems to want all of us here in New York to suffer permanently, as the families have. That suffering would not be experienced by her. I want the jobs, tax revenues, and public services back.
" 'Are we a people so pinched of heart that we would trade memory for real estate? If so the terrorists really have won.' "
Are we a people who are going to hold on to the sadness and horror by leaving a big spot in Manhattan dedicated solely to these two things, so that we can all continue to feel the misery? If so, the terrorists really have won.
That opinion could not be more out of line with reality.
-Hank
If every piece of real estate on this planet that has been touched by tragedy, war, and death was left untouched forever, what would be left for the living? Think of the devestation wreaked by World War II. Yes, a memorial at the World Trade Center. But it must be rebuilt better than before.
I partially agree. I don't think we should be in any rush to redevelop the WTC site, as I'd rather see the powers-that-be take their time and build something of lasting quality, rather than rushing in and build something just for the sake of getting something built. The site isn't going anywhere, and the current economy isn't exactly screaming for new Class-A office space. There's no need to hurry.
However, I feel strongly that something must get built there sooner or later. The site is big enough to handle new commercial development as well as an appropriate memorial; one doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility of the other. I agree with George Foelschow when he says, "If every piece of real estate on this planet that has been touched by tragedy, war, and death was left untouched forever, what would be left for the living?"
The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor claimed almost as many people as 9/11, and the partially-sunken USS Arizona still serves as a fitting memorial. However, Pearl Harbor also continues to function as an important naval base. London, Chicago, and Hiroshima have all been rebuilt after catastrophic disasters. Reasonable people can disagree about what should be built on the WTC site, but I think not to build anything would prove that we were indeed defeated.
I do, however, have a bone to pick with the direction the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation is proceeding with their Requests For Proposals (RFPs). In the Urban Planning RFP, they're setting down requirements for those who wish to submit design proposals for the WTC site.
First, the deadline is in July, less than a month away. That's a rediculously short time to put together a half-decent proposal. Again, what's the rush?
Secondly, the elgibility for those wishing to submit designs is limited to those who have 10 years experience in urban planning, demonstrated experience as a leading consultant on at least three major urban planning or transit projects, proven experience in environmental and zoning issues, etc, etc, etc.
That no way to run a design competition. Maya Lin, who designed the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, was barely out of school when her submission was chosen in that design competion. By the LMDC criteria, Lin never would have been chosen to design that memorial. Who is to say that some gifted architecture student doesn't have a superior design than some corporate firm that's been cranking out mediocre projects for the past few decades?
Sorry, but that really burns me up. I've got a few ideas of my own for the WTC site that I think are pretty good, and I'd like to be at least given a chance to put together some drawings and submit them for consideration. The design competition should be open to all rather than just a few large and well-connected corporations, and there should be sufficient time given for those of us who don't have a few dozen staff members to put together some presentation materials.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The WTC will be rebuilt, and so will a memorial. A combination of buildings with a memorial should work out just fine. -Nick
I feel it would be a mistake to leave the site empty. The WTC site was a bleeding wound. Now the wound is cleaned up and ready for healing. Leaving the site empty would just leave a scab there that would never fully heal. The best thing for the site is to move on and build something spectacular there, with a memorial. The scar will always be visable and present there. It's better to have a scar than a scab that never fully heals....that's an ulcer...and unhealthy.
It's amazing that some woman in California thinks she has even an iota about what we went through that day, and what should go back there. As I recall, some of those people out West were actually protesting any kind of retaliation for 9/11! The best place for her article is the furnace.
JDL
It's amazing that some woman in California thinks she has even an iota about what we went through that day, and what should go back there. As I recall, some of those people out West were actually protesting any kind of retaliation for 9/11!
Makes one wonder why the USA ever took that place from Mexico...
In 1848, California had its own revolution. If the US hadn't taken them, they wouldn't have been part of Mexico anyway.
With the fake occupied countries that exist in certain parts of the world, why does nobody call it US-occupied California? The US came in and stole the land in 1948 1848.
?It's amazing that some woman in California thinks she has even an iota about what we went through that day
Hey, Ms. Quindlen is not my favorite person, but she's not "some woman from California." She began her journalism career with the New York Post and worked for the New York Times for 18 years.
What is the Status of the New Comet V Passenger Cars and the ALP-46 Electric Locomotive?
I Like the way the NJT designed the new Rail Cars, the Cars look similar the Acela Express Rail Cars and LIRR M-7 Cars.
-AcelaExpress2005
Go to the Hoboken Terminal Webpage and click on "Locomotive Info", then on "Alp-46".
Here is some preliminary info taken from the site:
NJ TRANSIT is purchasing 29 new ALP46 electric locomotives. An original order of 24 electric locomotives was placed in anticipation of new service associated with Secaucus Transfer, Montclair Connection and other projects as well as to accommodate anticipated ridership growth. An additional five new locomotives have been ordered in anticipation of the take-over of Clocker Service from Amtrak which will occur no earlier than 2006.
The locomotives will have the capability to be utilized with longer train lengths as well as with bi-level cars. The current ALP44 electric locomotives have maximum train lengths of nine single levels and five bi-level cars as a result of the power needed to provide locomotive traction power as well as to supply lights, heating, air conditioning and other amenities. The new ALP46 locomotives will be capable of handling 12 single level or 10 bi-level cars. The power needed to pull the cars will also be improved and the locomotives will incorporate the new Federal Railroad Administration and American Public Transportation Association safety standards.
Weight: 99.2 tons
Length: 64 feet
Horsepower: 7,100
Top Speed: 100 MPH
Cost: $4.7 million
Number of units ordered: 29
I know about the website already, I wanted to know if any of the new equipment were in service yet.
Very nice-looking locomotive...it seems a bit ugly, but I can get used to it...otherwise, looks very nice...hope it performs well...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
I have to agree with Pete, I like the interior of the Loco.
Did they do a Test Run for the R-143 to see the maximum speed it can achieve? And In the Tunnel from Manhattan-Brooklyn on the L Train, what is the Max speed that is allowed?
Allowed, 50 (some timers set to that).
The R-142 is limited to 40 mph. My guess is that the R-143 has the same limit.
My understanding is that the 40 MPH speed limit on the R-142s was temporary, necessitated by a software problem (and I don't believe it affected the R-142As, by the way). Whether it's been corrected by now, I don't know, but it seems that R-142s that had been sitting in yards for a good long time are now starting to appear in service.
The R-143s are capable of going 55 MPH or so; under CBTC they should be able to go a bit faster unless the specs I have changed.
David
Yes! No further changes needed for my simulator. I read about it a while back and was getting ready to modify the speed curves to reflect the new max. speed.
That's good to hear. I was on a Redbird a few weeks ago that hit 50 (if the speedometer was accurate) on the West Side IRT, and 46-47 there is commonplace.
If the 40 mph limit is permanent, the R-142's should all be moved elsewhere. By current plans, they'll fill up the 2, 3, and 5, all expresses; any train with a 40 mph limit should, as much as possible, only be used in local service.
From what I remember riding Redbirds on the Lex express between Union Square and Grand Central, it was rare to see even 40 mph. Maybe I just always had bad luck when watching speedometers, but I would've thought that a straight stretch of express track going for a mile or so should've yielded consistently higher speeds than that.
I've been on Redbirds which have gotten up to 40-42 mph along the Park Ave. straightaway. Lexington Ave. north of Grand Central is another story. Big disappointment.
Hey get rid of the imported *RAP. And stop making the subway """safer""". What is progress do the R-142s have?
Only regress!
The R142 is NOT limited to 40mph. We always 42-43mph on the stretch from Allerton to Pelham Pkwy and from 174St to Freeman....
I proved my point yesterday:
1st trip from Allerton to Pelham Parkway: 42mph
2nd trip from Aleerton to Pelham Parkway: 43mph
Pennies don't go past 0 MPH but when you let it drop it does. Is that particular section of track straight and level and was your train empty or full?
That part of track is going downhill and my train was SRO. I dont think that matters though, because when we go express down Bway, we can reach speeds of up to 45mph with a full trainload.
So there a possiblity that the down-grade had to do with it?
Throttle doesn't governor coasting speed. CI Peter
Yes, my point. Otherwise that kind of equipment would be expensive.
Not so hard or expensive...just another useless software mod to clock the motor tachs like traction control...which the R142 doesn't have. Suckers don't even have regenerative braking which TA paid for...cuz it doesn't work (yet.) CI Peter
Oh! That's why only the R142A has the loud whining sounds.
They won't work for the next 2 Years I bet. And they will pay for regen brakes on the R-160 and still none of the cars have it on?
AVERAGE limit REV 8.6 is about 40 MPH. Nothings changed...try to sleep in the seats and every stop throws you down a foot or too. The software isn't a governor...just a limit of available traction power. CI peter
My Pelham Express did 45MPH passing Soundview Ave.
You rookies give speedometers too much credit and not enough to gravity. Must be that steel dust in the IRT
????????? Whatever, man!!!!!!!!!!
I went to Bombadier's web site, and they claim that the R142s are capable of doing 66mph. So it seems the T/A must have done something to the cars.
Like running them at 75% of designed speed to reduce accedents %0.00001. As far as people are abusing their right to sue the MTA (I suffered memory loss from the train accelerating)!
"It's never your fault but always someone's else"
For a change someone should sue the US goverment because the US GOV bombed their house in Afganistan (yehhh right, hahahaha). The way the case I descibed in the last sentance is how judges should resond to sueing pubic services.
The software of these trainsets limits throttle response to 40 MPH...what it does not do is governor the speed going downhill. I clocked 35 MPH going downhill on a folding scooter based on the speedometer in the yellow cab next to me! The speedometer in the cab measures speed independently of the trainset by radar and I question its accuracy as I indepently asked supervision as to why it is not checked (by 'tuning fork') in every inspection. The VDO Corp. unit is the same in R142s/R142As as in the Redbirds. CI Peter
I think you mean EDO.
Correct and thankyou! EDO was a well known manufacturer of seaplane floats long before making gauges for TA. CI Peter
Yes. I think the R68s have a different kind from the rest of the EDOs in the system. They have a speedometer with a black border and I think it only says "MPH"
What progress?
5 mph while discharging passengers.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/1999-summer-sub-wke.gif
Did this really happen, or is this a misprint(I only heard that these trains run during weekdays)?
Does anyone know why the MTA did this (if this is true)?
Were the headways between both northern terminals long or not?
Did the MTA run the White Plains Road #5 trains in 2000 and 2001 summer weekends?
Hopefully they can do this again this year
That was an error, and it's not an official MTA map but one which was created for nycsubway.org displaying weekend service.
I know if wasn't an official map, I just wanted to know if they did that service. It is a good idea though to give WPR riders 5-10 minute headways on weekend afternoons instead of the slow 2 train and that it.
I've updated this map and sent to Dave, so when he has the time, he'll replace the error map.
Thanks for letting me know.
Michael Calcagno
Hello,
I was unable to go to the TOSS test today due to a family emergency. However, the letter from the MTA doesn't include a telephone number. Does anybody know if I can get another chance to go for the TOSS test. If yes, please let me know how. Thank you.
Steve
I visited the Amtrak website and I found a link tacked on which tells you a brief note on AMTRAK's financial situation. For convenience, I will start the message here:
Important Information About Amtrak Train Services
"While there has been recent news that Amtrak may reduce some of its train services, you can be assured that all trains across our 22,000 mile route network are continuing to operate normally and will for the foreseeable future. Amtrak is committed to delivering satisfaction-guaranteed service to millions of guests every year and to serving a national passenger rail system. In the event that a change occurs in a service, ample advance notice will be provided and, as we have in the past, Amtrak will reimburse any guest who may be adversely affected by changes to our schedule."
I think most people already know about this because it was relayed onto CNN Headline News two days ago. CNN said that AMTRAK will have to shut down next month if the $205 million shortage is not covered. AMTRAK also asked Congress for $1.2 billion for next fiscal year's coverage.
It sounds as though some people actually believe that Amtrak will shut down next month and are cancelling reservations, and other people believe Amtrak will shut down next month and are not making new reservations.
I personally expect Amtrak to still be here on Labor Day and I anticipate making an Acela Express reservation from Philly to Boston on August 24 with the return trip on August 29.
I was wondering if anybody knew where I could access an accurate reasonably-detailed scale drawing of the WTC site, preferably pre-9/11. I've found a few drawings on the web, and I've managed to translate them into a fairly detailed AutoCAD drawing, but without an accurate scale to work from, my AutoCAD drawing could be off by up to 100 feet. Once I establish a scale, I can easily re-scale my AutoCAD drawing to match.
Keep in mind I'll be visiting NYC on Saturday, June 15th, so I could easily stop by the city library or elsewhere if they had some scale drawings or at least some detailed scale maps of the WTC area. I wouldn't neccesarily need to take said drawing home with me, but I'd need to establish at least one reliable fixed dimension to work from. Anybody know of any resources I should check out?
I'm trying to put together some sort of proposal for a memorial and rebuilding of the WTC site if/when they ever announce a design competition for such a thing, but my design can only go so far if I don't know how big the site is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Looks like you're pretty good in Architectural Drawing. I don't know the answers to your questions but I do know that the WTC Complex is 16 acres. (according to Associated Press for Optonline.net)
Try the New York Historical Society. They had an exhibit with the original drawings.
You might try the Port Authority or the NYC Buildings Dept. Also, possibly NYC Dept of City Planning.
If none of those pan out, try the City Register, where all of the land records are kept. It's located on the second floor of the Surrogate's Court building at Chambers and Centre Streets. Come to think of it, there is a Municipal Reference Library on the first floor of the same building that could be very helpful.
Thanks for the info. I don't suppose any of these places are open on Saturdays? How about the main library on 42nd Street? Do they have a municipal reference section?
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't suppose any of these places are open on Saturdays?
Govt offices? Open on Saturday? LOL.
How about the main library on 42nd Street? Do they have a municipal reference section?
Why don't you ask them?
Try OASIS, http://www.oasisnyc.net/
Arti
Are you all sure that the R-160 will look like the R-143?? And is there any update on the R-160's?
And is there any update on the R-160's?
Not since you asked this question two days ago. Give it a rest, will you?!?!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Check Your Self, I didn't ask this question 2 days ago, I asked about the R-143, maybe you should think before you post.
R-160, R-143, it's all the same. My point is that you (and a couple of other posters) are constantly asking questions about trivial matters that no one here will be able to legitimately answer BECAUSE THE ANSWER ISN'T KNOWN, and probably won't be for a couple of years. There are people who post here that WILL know the answer WHEN THERE IS ONE TO KNOW and who, I am sure, will post the information at that time (I'm not one of those people with inside information so I can assure you it won't be me), but in the meantime all you are succeeding in doing is annoying the rest of us out here.
On the other hand, if and when you do have a legitimate question, we'll be happy to answer it if we can.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right now you are annoying me!! If you didn't want to answer the question, then don't answer at all! I've asked questions like this in the past on SubTalk and nobody had a problem with it.
will you both cut the childish bullshit and stop flaming each other . Acela is just curious about certain things and doesn't mean to piss people off when he posts. Everybody calm down this is not a flaming board this a transit board. Calm down. Acela im pretty sure the R-160 is going to be similiar but not the same to the R143 kinda like how R44/R46 look similiar but are complietely different trains. There probally be a few minor differences but other then that they'll probally be almost the same. Well you 2 please calm down. I dont like to see fighting.
Adam
I'm just assuming here, but I think the R143 and R160 will be very similar to each other. Sort of like the R44 and R46 are very similar (at least visually) and the R40M's and the R42's are very similar. Your average rider could probably not tell the difference between a R40M and an R42. The same is true for the R44 and R46's. There may be some minor differences between the R143 and the R160, but I think they will probably look very similar.
As for the other nonsense previously in this post, I feel that as long as any question is transit related, and a poster has a genuine interest in the subject they are asking, they should not feel intimidated to ask it. That's what this board is about! I don't feel someone should be belittled for not being as knowledgable as some others on the board. This board is about discussing our common interests in trains, etc, and learning more about it! How can anyone learn if they have to be afraid to ask questions? If a particular subject bores anyone they are free to not click on it, and ignore it, someone else will answer.
The R-32 & R-38's look Identical also.
Then you've obviously never seen them.
-Hank
They are very similar. You are thinking like a railfan. The general public probably doesn't even notice that they are two different trains.
As a passenger, I can most definately see the difference, because it's right there at eye-level.
You want to talk cars that DO meet that criteria, look no further than the rustbirds.
Or an RxA contract.
The R44/46.
-Hank
"The R-32 & R-38's look Identical also."
No they don't!
Gee wiz! then they were new, the Brightliners (R32s) had BLUE side and end doors, and the Silverliners (R38s) had silver (Well DuH).
The top front of the Brightliners looked very much like the R27-30s while the 38s had a raised peice of detailing around the letterboards and clasification lights.
What they look like after the GOHs is a disaster, which since I have moved to North Dakota, I have not had to look at.
GASH that STUPID destination sign, the poor train looks like a wounded cyclops!
Elias
Well Gee wiz!, Your Average Subway Rider wouldn't know the damn difference betweem them, because they do look Identical, just the Technical Stats and some minor interior and exterior look different from each other.
"and some minor interior and exterior look different from each other."
And *that* is what rail fans look and live for.
Hey, I *knew* the difference with the very first R-38 that I saw. I *Knew* that *this* wasn't your father's R-32!
Hehehehe.....
Besides it was running on the (F) where R-32s in those days did not go. So.... I guess it is safe to say that it did not look like your average R9 either!
: )
Elias
Well Gee wiz!, Your Average Subway Rider wouldn't know the damn difference betweem them, because they do look Identical, just the Technical Stats and some minor interior and exterior look different from each other.
I agree. Most people will not say "Um, wow I'm in an R32 instead of an R38!" They have no idea that there are more variety in the subway cars than they think. If you are lucky, they may notice that some trains are not red on the 7 anymore. And then they will still only think for only a second, "Wow, a NEW train!", then get on with their day. I doubt they would think, "Aren't these the R62's that have been around on other lines?"
The R32 and R38 distinctly different looking cars. To the average subway rider they do look the same, but to you, a NYCT railfan, I am suprised that you made a statement like that! Do you railfan in the system?
I know the differences between them already, and I agree that the average Subway rider doesn't know the difference between them. I railfan Monday-Friday on the A/C Lines from Nostrand Ave. - Euclid Ave. to get to school, I stay 3 Cars away from the front, 1) because its gets crowded at Bway-ENY and 2)because the first stairway is right there by the 3rd Car.
that would be incorrect... the lights would make even a blind person aware that they arent the same car.
What the Hell are you talking about?
The R32s are very bright, the R38s are very dim. before i knew anything about the subway, i could easily tell the difference between the two. (i called them Bright C and Dark C)
It's pretty simple to distinguish an R32 from an R38. In an R38, the lighting is placed INSIDE the ad panels on the ceiling, so the lighting seems dimmer. On R32's, the lighting is OUTSIDE above the ad panels so it looks brighter.
Also look at the bars next to the "love seats" at the ends of the car. If the bar is connected to the ceiling and if there's another bar from the side door to the bar to the ceiling, it's an R38. R32's only have one, simple curved bar on all seats.
Except for one thing:
Ten R-32s were overhauled by General Electric (d/b/a Buffalo Transit Services) at the same time it was overhauling the R-38s. Those ten R-32s have the same interior appointments as the R-38s, including the lighting.
David
Well there is a very, very little chance of someone being on that trainset of overhauled R32's that look like R38's. If one happens to ride one, then the other difference is that doors on R38's close SILENTLY and the windows toward the center and the ends of the train are wider than those of the R32's. Steel frames on the outside are also different in structure than the R32's.
Pete, I suggest that you get a picture of an R-32 and of an R-38 and look at them very very carefully. The first thin you will notice is that the obvious differences are external and they are very obvious.
On the R-32 the corregations in the side go right to the roofline while the corregations on the R-38 go only to the windowline.
On the R-32 (post GOH) the end of the car is corregated up to the plain steel panel that holds the end sign. On the R-38, again the corregations only go up to the windowline. The endsign panel has also maintained the original contour where the marker lights one were.
The R-38 has A maroon TA logo on the front opposite the train operator's cab. The R-32 does not.
Now you can forget about all that crap about the interiors (which, by the way, is wrong)
I do have to say on Railfan Pete's behalf that the lighting aspect that he had brought up is correct in which the R32's lighting is outside the ads whilst the R38's lighting is behind the ads. But that's trying to identify it the hard way. The corrogation should give them away.
As far as those R32's with R38 interiors, those are the most confusing cars I've ever operated in. They put all of the components in the oddest areas (IIRC, the windshield wiper knob is behind the T/O on the right hand side).
Now you can forget about all that crap about the interiors (which, by the way, is wrong)
Do you think the things I post here are made up? You think I'm a little martian who just posts differences about R32's and R38's here. I've actually RIDDEN R32's and R38 models so you can stop scrutinizing me in every way possible. I DO know the differences in the bars on the interior and don't think I don't.
No Peter, I don't think the things you've posted are made up. Now as long as you are not making things up, Peter, perhaps you'd like to explain the differences in the R-32s with respect to the Post GOH interiors of the R-32s that were designated R-32 and R-32A prior to overhaul. I'm sure since you've ridden R-32s and R-38s, you'll be able to tell us about the 3 different interiors on the R-32s and how they differ from the R-38.
Have I ridden a R32A before? Where and when did the overhauls take place? I can only refer to one interior of the R32 because I don't know about the rest, unless you would like to tell me about them.
In this case, the R32 I have in mind is the one with the red door closing signals, including those between the lower ceiling at the ends of the cars. Doors have a weird "aaak" sound when they close, lights are outside the ad panels (7 on each side) corrugated metal throughout the train except for the short sections on both sides of the doors, and the car number font is a modern, Arial-looking font. The conductor's window is a rectangle with "half" a window that slides down.
In an R38, the lights are inside the ad panels which number more than 7 on each side, the door indicator lights are yellow on the inside, the windows are wider, there are silver speakers, and the safety bars at the end of the loveseats at the ends of the car are weird shaped. The conductor's window is rectangle but rounded at the edges, and the font for the car numbers are more jagged-looking. (I don't know which font) Doors close silently.
I've personally did not see a R32 with jagged-numbers.
Does this satisfy you or do you demand something else?
"Doors have a weird "aaak" sound"
I never noticed the aaak sound !!!!
Have I ridden a R32A before?
I don't know - you may have.
Does this satisfy you or do you demand something else?
I don't demand anything. You were nitpicking minor cosmetic differences of the interior of the R-32. I tried to point out some obvious significant differences. This seemed to enrage you. Of course now that you have pointed out the aaak sound of the doors, the jagged numbers and the red vs yellow lights, it must be clear to everyone on subtalk that you are no martian. I also have to admit that you obviously know more about R-32s and r-38s than I ever will.
Well the R32's make some kind of noise that I cannot express even in onomatopoeia right before the doors close. Also on R32's with worn out door motors, the doors make excessive noise when they open, and sometimes slam when they close.
R-32 GE's have 10 stanchions, R-38s have 6 while R-32s have 8 or 9 (I forgot).
R-32 GE windows are the same size as R-32 windows, while R-38 windows are slightly larger.
How does one railfan in the third car? 99% of the time I am on the subway, I am either in the first car or make it to the first car by the end of my ride.
LOL
I can railfan in the third car if I wanted to, I only stay in the front to look in the front window. I also stay in the third Car on the A/C Lines because most of my friends are in there, even in third car, I can see the aspects of the Train, and its no fun in the front if your in a R-44.
Even a railfan doesn't need to railfan every time they use the subway. SOmetimes the subway is just for (gasp) transportation.........
>>GASH that STUPID destination sign, the poor train looks like a wounded cyclops<<
Don't laugh, that might be on the horizon if another overhaul comes about. Those yellow flip dots are fading and with the dirty glass and dimmer fluorescent tube, an LED sign would be an improvement. But don't hold you breath waiting for them to restore the old curtain rollsigns, not with the A/C in the way.
Bill "Newkirk"
from a passenger perspective, the R32 is more like the R42 than the R38. (they have almost the same interior.)
"The R-32 & R-38's look Identical also. "
Acela, don't let these guys kid you! You are correct. Unless you look at the fronts or the sides or the interiors, it is very hard for us to tell the R-32 and the R-38 apart.
Unless you look at the fronts or the sides or the interiors, it is very hard for us to tell the R-32 and the R-38 apart.
Surely it *is* very hard, especially when there are Blind T/O's with little sticks floating about the NYCTA System...
AEM7
Went all the way back to August 2001, eh? Do you keep a list of the top 500 posts next to your computer for quick reference?
Thanks TrainDude, unlike us Railfans, we can see the difference but your average subway rider would think the R-38 & R-32 are the same train.
The average subway rider probably isn't going to think about it at all.
David
Exactly.
No kidding, the other day I got stopped in 8th and Market Station by a woman wondering how to get to 30th Street Station. I stopped, told her to catch the market frankford line 4 stations to the west, ok she's never heard of the Market Frankford line. I stop and think, cant say catch the ADtranz train, not the Budd, or Kawasaki trains. Finally I tell her to walk north (I was at the main Patco Fare gate, below Burger King), and go across the bridge to the other side of the MFL, and catch the first train that comes, and ride it for 4 stations. She walks off, and I resume screaming at the PATCO change machine for my money. 20 seconds later she's back, and complaining cause the train she walked up to only goes to Fern Rock and Chinatown, the Broad Street Subway ridge ave line. Now 8th and Market is not the most confusing of railroad stations, the three lines that converge all have very different equipment, Patco's cars are unmistakable, two doors, darkened around the windshield, the MFL's cars are much larger, heavier looking cars silver all over with blue trim, and the BSS's cars are pretty much orange trim everywhere, seats, accent points, everywhere.
Yet these rather large diffences were lost on this lady, I finally had to guide her to the entrance to the fare control for the MFL, and wrote instructions turn by turn for her to get to her train at 30th street. I realize that some people do not railfan, nor ever notice a train unless they are delayed by such a train, but this is ridiculous! At the least, take the time to print out a map before you go venturing down into a new subway, just wandering is a good way to get yourself killed, especially in the case of this woman.
Oh well, I guess there are some people who should just take a cab.
That made me laugh, but it brings up an interesting point....
To you and I, and the others on this board who are so passionate about trains, we are good at things like telling trains and lines apart, AND, understanding how to use train systems. In fact, I venture to guess that if any one of us were dropped in a foreign land, where we didn't even understand the language, we would understand a train system map better than the residents.
To those less passionate about them, they can be anything from uninteresting, to totally confusing. My mother, a very intelligent lady, a nurse (RN) for almost 40 years, STILL doesn't realize that IRT cars are narrower than BMT-IND cars.
And this is a lady who has taken the subways for almost 60 years.
Sarcasm is completely lost on you, huh?
-Hank
It's been said that an insult can never be given. It can only be taken!
So the moral of the story is: "know your insult!" Maybe signs
can be printed up and placed at critical locations in a thread
so the proper insult is recognized and taken. Posts where the
insult is given can be marked in the message index with a blue
diamond.
IMO it should be
"Unless you look at the fronts or the sides or the interiors, OR THE ROOFS"
Only if you eyes are dead in grayscale. The wavie stainless steel outsides are compleatly different.
Does anyone know how so-called "Dummy" steam trolley cars worked? I am reading a history of NYC trolleys, and the author refers to these without giving an explanation of how they worked. Thanks.
A "steam dummy" was a small steam locomotive - typically an 0-4-0 - that had a "dummy" body built around it to make it look like a trolley car. Some even had upright boilers like the early RR locomotives. The purpose was to avoid frightening the horses by concealing the machinery - whether or not it worked I really don't know, but I somehow rather doubt it. They were used to pull a single coach (they didn't have enough power for more than that).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the explanation.
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Back in the day, single unit cars w/ cabs at both ends were king and anything else was unique/special. Then came the married pair and while they quickly achieved dominance, but single unit cars still had their place. Most orders contained at least some single unit cars like the 1960 Buss M-3's, the Budd PATCO cars, the SEPTA Silverliner IV's and the NJT Arrow III's, the Metroliners, the R33's, the R62's, the new Broat Street Cars, etc, etc. Anyway, recently, not only have single unit cars been replaced in favour of married pairs, there is a growing propensity for larger trainsets with 3 to 5 units per set. Examples are the Cosmopolitan cars on CDoT and the R142/3. My question is "Are Single Units Dead", will we ever see any more orders of single unit subway/commuter rail MU equipment?
I suspect that single/double units were preferred back in the day because money could be saved by varying the size of the trainsets throughout the day not to mention the broken down units could be pulled out. Now that the cost of labout is so high, it is cheaper to virtually weld trains together into 6 or 10 or 11 (whatever is needed at the peak time) car sets and then leave them that way as long as you can. PATCO is the only system that I know of that practices strict trainlength control even going as far to run a single unit train late at night.
Any comments?
Blame the loss of single units on careless maintainance...IF electric portions and cabling was properly inspected, the trainline failure rate would probably have been much lower and trainsets would've not been carved up into married pairs or five car trainsets. CI Peter
Just be grateful that our friends at MOLEX never made choochoo connectors. Could you imagine? :)
Molex connectors are for covering your arse if you need to take a device apart in a hurry sometime 20 years after its built. They're good for about 2 usage cycles, and then they're garbage. You'd almost be better off with wire nuts. OTOH, they are available at every Radio Shack in an emergency...
Just as bad are the AMP black plastic "high density" connectors, a cheaper option for the more rugged MS connectors; a.k.a. 97-series. I've had them disintegrate in my hands before. (Power was OFF, BTW!)
Solution: Electrical Tape!
Heh. The bane of every tech. Gator clips, 5 to a bag. :)
There are some strong FRA advantages to trainsets in that
you don't have to keep a blue card for the middle car.
Cuts down on maint costs and paperwork.
But in the case of NYCT, those regs don't apply. The thinking
has oscillated over the years. We started with locomotives and
coaches. The early IRT and BRT equipment was not permanently
linked, but they did use both blind and control trailers in
the consist. All of the innovative BMT equipment was either
articulated or semi-permanent sets. So it was really the IND
that standardized on having just one type of single-unit car.
Thirty years and several thousand cars later, the bean counters
realized they could save cost with married pairs and then A/B
units. The R62 program was retrogressive because of the bad
taste that "new tech" had left with the 44/46 orders, so it, and
the 68/68A, were singles.
Now the pendulum has swung back the other way and NYCT is doing
"trainsets". I predict in a few years they will go back again.
Already with the introduction of the R62As to the Flushing
line they are paying the inflexibility price that link sets bring.
FWIW - Chicago CTA is still using married pairs. In fact, since the 1-50 series PCC cars and the four 1947 articulateds were retired, that's all that they have. Convient to make up trainsets varying from 2-8 cars.
-- Ed Sachs
I wonder why they couldn't have stuck with married pairs, at the most gone to 3 car sets. Married pairs were so handy and brought some savings even if singles are still the best way to go. But they couldn't leave well enough alone beginning with the R44 now w're up to halftrain sets like 5 cars. Absurd to say the least one goes BO and 5 cars are OS.Onthe freight RR side I"ve seen 89 ft. piggybacks in 5 car solid drawbar format, I don't mean the artic's. Same thing...but here they delay the hottest traffic on the RR. Penny wise pound foolish.
If you had a bad car, you cut it and replaced it. A good number of TTs identified problems due to bad electrical portion contacts...the idea was to link cars permanently and eliminate the electric portion. New trainsets come now in five car legnths...any major car failure that cannot be repaired during inspection goes to 'shop' and the whole trainset is out of revenue. Smart!!! CI Peter
The ATSF RR invented the "Ten Pack" TOFC unit.
Are Single Units Dead?
I just received today, 6/10, my June 2002 copy of CINDERS by the Philadelphia NRHS. In the PHILADELPHIA EXPRESS section under SEPTA Regional Rail, which is edited by Frank G. Tatnall, Jr. states:
"By late May SEPTA was still working out the legal details for its proposed acquistion of 104 new Silverliner V commuter cars. The request for proposals will call for 70 married-pair cars and 34 singles . . ."
I'm guessing this is an answer to the question if Single Units are Dead.
Jim K.
Formally of PA
The "X" switch crossover on the Market-Frankford line west of 40th Street Station (but east of the curve in the tunnel) is very near completion. My assumption is that they intend to keep it there permanently, but only added it recently in preparation for the Market Street Elevated Reconstruction Project. 40th St. is as close as the trains can get to the elevated without actually using it (otherwise, they'd need to either turn back at 52nd Street or run the shuttle buses to 30th Street Sation).
But, I've noticed one thing about this that doesn't make sense. There's been a space in the tunnel for this crosover for years, probably since it opened. (the tunnel to 40th Street, that is) The support beams are removed from between tracks where a crossover exists. (otherwise, the train would crash, of course) However, that provision has sat there unused for decades now, and just recently began serving what was apparently its intended purpose.
Why on earth would anyone make provisions for something such as a crossover, and then let it sit for years without building one? It's just a crossover, not an entire spur. (such as the never built Broad Street Line spurs to Northeast or Southwest Philadelphia; the only intended spur ever to be built was the Broad-Ridge Spur, which was supposed to be run all the way to 16th & Locust) Why wait so long?
Why on earth would anyone make provisions for something such as a crossover, and then let it sit for years without building one?
Perhaps because at the time they felt they had no need for it, but anticipated the possibility that they would at some future time, and it was cheaper to make the provision now than to do it later. As a striking example of that, I cite the lower level of the 63rd Street tunnel between Manhattan and Queens (for the eventual routing of the LIRR to GCT) and the never-used Roosevelt Avenue terminal station for the IND line that was never built.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What would would make sense to me is:
The crossover west of 40th st. is still in the subway. In case of horrible weather, or problems on the el, they could still keep trains in the subway portion and they would be protected.
Chuck
You do make an excellent point there. Again, though, I wonder if they'll keep it past the construction. I notice evidence of crossover switches in the tunnel and along the Frankford elevated line that have been removed
One thing about the Market-Frankford, is they have crossover switches in some of the strangest places 63rd Street is so close to the end of the line (69th Street Terminal), that the crossover set there (east of the station) is nearly obsolete. Why turn back a train just two stops shy of the end, and with only six blocks from short turn point to endpoint?
Granted, though, as with the DC Metrorail system, very few interlocks in the system are ever used, at least for turnbacks. The only regularly used "short turn" crossovers in SEPTA'S entire subway/elevated system are at Bryn Mawr (on the Route 100 train), Walnut-Locust, and Olney (both on the Broad Street Line)
I was on the J train today from Myrtle to Canal and noticed that the J was only running to Crescent street. I was suprised that the R42's even had Crescent St in their rollsigns. Why would they have Crescent St in there? Was there a service run/planned that would use Crescent as a terminal?
What are they doing east of Crescent street that the trains are ending there?
Also they were using the express track for Manhattan bound service, because of the work being done at Flusing and Hewes. The stations are almost entirely dismantled. The M would unload at Myrtle run all the way to Marcy light, and then all the way back to Myrtle to resume service. I don't know if it was picking up passengers though as it rode back to Myrtle from the switch at Marcy.
they're doing something beyond Cresent St that has all J's end there then a shuttle bus from Cresent to Jamaica Center.Too bad i wasnt there for that today,i would've loved to see the chaos that insued,everyone whining and complaining,asking this and that.i bet'cha that they're working on the third rail just like they did when they had no service between Broadway-Junction and Cypress Hills awhile back.
Too bad i wasnt there for that today,i would've loved to see the chaos that insued,everyone whining and complaining,asking this and that.
lol...I only used the J to Myrtle, because I was transfering to the M, so I didn't get that far. But I can imagine the scene at Crescent was a chaotic one....
yeah and thats just today,now its gonna be the entire weekend next week and the following weekend as well.i can see it now, person without the slightest clue of whats happening:"hey! why the hell arent we going to Jamaica Center!? what do i do now!? this always happens on the freakin weekends!" that last line of "this always happens on the freakin weekends" is something i hear all the time im around a GO.i try to explain the situation and the person is like...Huh? wha? absolutly dumbfounded i tell ya!and i say it lots of times and they never listen,the subway is almost 100 years old,when something like this happens,it NEEDS to happen!even more so on the Jamaica Ave El,thats been around for 120 years.
The shuttle bus doesn't go to Jamaica Center. It goes to Jamaica-Van Wyck on the E. If you need to go to Sutphin or Jamaica Center, transfer at J-VW to the E.
This was posted on the TA's service advisory page a few weeks ago.
Actually, I also noticed that they had a lot of barricades up at Canal Street on the J (even on the rebuilt side). Is that the start of the removal of the wall to extend the "express" track through, so they can abandon the Queens bound platform? If not, does anyone know what they are doing there?
New track panels were being installed south of 111 St. and south of Woodhaven Blvd. on J2 track.
Where are the M-7's being tested at? and can someone update me on when will the full M-7 Fleet will be in service, because I want to see these Acela Cars, Opps I mean M-7 Cars over by the Flatbush Ave. Branch.
I didn't even know there were any on the property testing yet. For anyone who hasn't seen them yet, here is a link to photos of them: (Sorry, I don't know the codes to making it a real link, and don't feel like looking for them right now, so you will have to copy and paste......)
http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/longisland/ny-lilirr1220gallery.photogallery
I also have pics of them at Penn Station during commencement of testing last month...if you want to see them, please e-mail me at carlwal@hotmail.com and I will show them to you...or, you can visit the site GP38 gave...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
>>Where are the M-7's being tested at?<<
Currently, there is one married pair of M-7's in Hillisde Facility where Bombardier and the LIRR are becoming familiar with them. In order to test them, another married pair or two is needed to go out on the road. The same was done with the M-3's when they were new.
Bill "Newkirk"
I would like to suggest to you and others on this board to an Urban Transit Club Meeting so you could get information and answers to your questions. Go to http://www.utcny.org/ to their website. I was told last night at the June UTC meeting that in typical Bombardier (lack of) quality control fashion, that these cazs have faulty brakes. It was track testing at the DOT Testing Facility at Pueblo Colorado and it took the cars over a mile to stop. So the 2 cars here are not track testing till they learn how to stop. So let's be patient. Over the course of the past few years, virtually all new transit cars in every state have expereinced quality control problems and the timetables to introduce any new equipment have been tossed out the window.
Okay, Kawasaki has a plant in Japan, and that is where the R142s are being put together. Then, it's shipped to Yonkers. How in the name of all things made of Chocolate did the trains make that trip halfway around the world from Honshu to Yonkers? I had always thought that Yonkers was the place that the trains were manufactured and put together. Besides, wouldn't that save import taxes (if applicable on stuff shipped from Japan to the USA).
Also, the R142As...does Bombardier make the trains in Quebec, and send them down directly to New York, or is it the same procedure as the one Kawasaki and the R142s follow?
-J!
The Kawasaki cars take the slow boat from Japan to Newark, NJ. They are then trucked to Yonkers.
Governments don't pay taxes.
-Hank
Dang! They're smuggling them in with Toyotas. :)
Wh...what? No taxes? No way! :)
-J!
I know you are in Canada, but here in the USA imported unfinished goods for final finishing and sale to a government agency are free from custom and duties.
No no no......
R142 cars are made by Bombardier; whereas R142A cars are made by Kawasaki. You can look at the R142 page for details.
Chaohwa
Whatever happened to the day where a firm devoloped a design and marketed it against competing designs from other firms?
This is the government, they wouldn't dare want to encourage a thing like competition!
Because the TA said 'we want this car, and it MUST have these features', so there really was no need for competing design. A secondary issue is standardization. How many different spare parts do you want to have on-hand?
-Hank
It's went the way of 5-cent subway fares and the dodo birds. :)
Seriously, I guess the TA are going with some of the better brand-names of subway car makers, such as Kawasaki or Bombardier, and from America's better trading partners (i.e. Japan, Canada) You won't be seeing Adtranz or ALSTOM (from EU countries, a US competitor of sorts...) trains on any NY route anytime soon, I'd bet.
-J!
Why dosen't the TA get competing designs and then choose the best one? If something bad happens w/ the R14X design, the TA is screwed. Furthermore, how would they ever know if there might have been something better than the R14X design?
I'd have to agree. But hey, it's the TA's call, so if they botch up, you get to say "Ha ha!"
Personally, I think a company like Adtranz or ALSTOM could've made a pretty good R14X design...it's just that the TA didn't select them to build and design the cars.
-J!
The designs are made by the NYCT new car department. The MTA says "This is what we want." The builders just figure how much it will cost to include start up cost. If you have been winning bids, your start up cost spreads out on the different contracts (like the redbirds - All made by SLC.)
New car department? Since when did the MTA become a mechanical engineering design firm? They should leave design to the professionals and just try to run their system efficiently.
NYCT has had a New Car Engineering office within its Division of Car Equipment (and DCE's predecessors) for many, many years.
David
Car design has a major impact on system efficiency.
Since long before your birth.
-Hank
Please keep it quite, we socialists are plotting again!
I'll take twelve shares of your enterprise, hold the mayo. :)
I am betting on 2004, I think the NYCDOT has finally gotten its act together, and knowing Bloomberg, I do not think that he wants to have a project go further then necessary costing the city even more money. Anyone disagree? I dont think the things that happened with the South Side will happen to the North Side, since the B and D are major artery lines, and that their only way to reach Dekalb, while the N,R,W,Q, have the Montegue Street Tunnel to reach Dekalb. So 2004 is the way to go.
I'm not sure of the details of the contract and weather we pay before, during, or after the work. But I'm betting that there will be penalties for getting the job done late like the Williamsburg Bridge's contract had.
Here's what the DOT website says: there is a completion date for the road, bikeway, and subway framing of January 2004. Everything but the subway has an incentive to finish early and penalty to finish late; the subway frraming just has the penalty.
But there is the thing -- that's just the framing, and the website only says that subway service will return later at a date determined by DOT. No deadline at all.
It sounds like all bets are off, and no one is in any hurry.
There is a "Manhattan Bridge liason" with a phone number (212) 724-9219. How about all us Subtalkers -- and Straphangers if there are any out there -- calling and demanding that subway service be restored in January, 2004?
I have been reinstructed about my operation for the umpteenth time.
About half the TSS' want me to wrap it and the other half want to hear that slow click, click, click as I take power.
Now on a 'good' train no slow releasing brakes, no power problems can you just wrap it without causing damage to the train? I know that on some BO trains you take power slowly to avoid jerking or the BOOM noises from down under. BUT assuming there is no hesitation when you release and wrap is there damage being down. Or could the answer depend on car class?
OTJ, TD any insights?
Heh, on the train's I'm on, alot of them wrap it regardless of the condition of the train even it there are boom noises. But some bring it out with 2 notches and some do 3 clicks in one second as opposed to wrapping it. But I've heard teacher T/Os tell newbies to wrap it more than wait for 3 clicks.
From Page T7-5 of the R-32 GOH contract book:
"7.2.14. MODE CHANGES
"Immediate movement of the master controller handle from 'Coast' to any of the three power positions shall cause the control to automatically progress to that mode of operation. This shall be accomplished with an acceleration rate of 2.5 mphps in the second and third power positions."
For those not familiar with the power positions, they are: switching, series, and parallel."Wrapping it" means going right from "coast" to "parallel."
David
Forgive me for chiding in where I *don't* know the certain answer but even back in the mighty R9 days, you were supposed to "click ... click ... click" from a dead stop in a time of simpler controllers and propulsion. "wrapping it" is/was allowable if the train was already moving of course and I'd take delight in "rat-a-tat-tat" ...
There's a hell of an inrush current going from a dead stop and with all the fancy electronics these days, I would imagine that hasn't changed all that much. But I'd bet it's quite alright to wrap it from coast straight to parallel when you hit the R markers but they'd not be too pleased if you roared out of the station with a "rat-a-tat-tat." Back in the old days, you could count on a motor flash if you tried. And that was with more "forgiving" equipment.
I only chided in here in hopes of seeing how my own opinion fares among those who know the REAL answers - I'm 30+ years out of qualification. :)
Well I usually wrap it UNLESS I hear the BOOM or the train feels like I am doing the 'Time Warp Again'. IMHO most of the jerking is from holding too much brake or slow releasing not from wrapping it. It used to happen to me more when I held 20-30 much more than when I hold 10-20. Breaking in some of these nuts would hold ZERO and have it in power and they did not jerk so it must be the brakes much of the time.
Heh. You're right ... in the arnines, you'd get used to releasing when you heard the air from the doors closing, expecting to get indication. If you didn't give them a couple of seconds, they'd still be dragging somewhat. And I didn't mean to sound like an old lady, to me "wrap it" is like pulling the handle on a slot machine whereas I'd take a half second or so between notches in normal ops. Sometimes though, that was too fast. You'd get some nasty bucking from the cars if they didn't like it.
But the R10's ... GEEZ ... VERY slow on the release, and noisy bangs from the motors and the cars slacking in their final days. Truly some unhappy campers in that crowd. But yeah, you'd have guys that would sit there with zero and have to take some air because they'd start to roll with the doors open. Whoops. :)
What policy have you been reinstructed on? If 80% of T/Os move their controllers from off to third point without notching up, and aren't starting or stopping hard then what rule, policy instruction or bulletin are you violating? I think the school car TSSs are blowing off steam because of the heat they are now under thanks to previous classes. Make an arrangement to check your personel record at Jay Street to see what they reinstructed you on.
Actually it is road TSS's. Half of them are nuts about time the other half about perfect stops where an egg won't roll. I am waiting for someone to ask me for the left-handed handle.
Honestly the first few I just want to stop on the money and then get a feel for that trainset and then I can smooth it out more.
I should say verbally reinstructed but it is VERY annoying to have some of them insist you do it one way and the other half the other way. I was threatened with an official one but I pointed out that there was another TSS riding me who is known to be a pain in the rear (heavy accent, wants you to look at him when he talks even while operating, makes fun of my name, asks to see your pass while you are operating, and my favorite keeps opening and closing the door even after I ask him not to do that).
Ahhh the physically 'restricted.' How many times I instruct CIs and say left and right hand...and I get stupid looks when i have to point out THIS IS YOUR LEFT HAND (and this is the right hand that you waste our time doing.....) Your left hand must remain upon the throttle and you can remove your right hand from the brake handle to operate the windshield wiper or entertain yourself. A CI can perform all the pneumatic tests during inspection by using BOTH hands and never leave upstairs in the process. 'Pleese watch the closing of the opening doors thankyouverrrrymuch.' This work is verrrry good for all of us...WE keep our city alive. AND I am NOT the guy who writes on the postings 'Speak English!' So someone makes a comment about my work during a safety meeting and a sup nabs him to read aloud todays safety tip. Babbling away, I interrupt to say 'Yo Himey...Speak English.' Four CIs break out laughing...the rest are lost. Where else can you be paid to have fun everyday? This is our new home, this is our new work. RTO MAKES TRAINS MOVE and CED MAKES TRAINS GO. God Bless to everyone, CI Peter
Sounds like I was lucky I worked there when life was simple. Do these people have train service experience, did they move up to TSS because they didn't like running? Sounds like too many of them with nothing to do.
I tell ya Unca Ed (and THANKS for all those books!) you and me got out when the getting was excessive. Heh. I really feel sorry for the folks who have to sit in the broom closet these days. In the 70's the worst you got was yelled at and some ball busting but once out on the rails, no pop quizzes. Either you hit that ball or you didn't and if you got to the other end, they'd break out the bubbly. :)
Most people who take the TSS or dispatcher promotion do so just to get off the road. The problem is that half of these were lousy t/o's and naturally will be lousy supervisors.
Heh. But they know EVERYTHING once they get appointed. :)
Amen, Bill from Maspeth. I couldn't agree with you more. As I said before in another post, the TA was hiring a lot of garbage as supervisors just about the time I was retiring. When they lowered the standards for the promotional exams they opened the flood gates and individuals that had no business being Motorman Instructors, or Supervisors in any capacity, were promoted. When I left in '91 I compared the promotion system to a septic tank, eventually the large chunks will rise to the top.
Bklynsubwaybob
Sound like one of the Trainmasters i knew at Laurel Yard [actually a friend of the family of sorts]. The troops told me when he wasan engineer he was among the laziest and the biggest whiner.
To all interested parties,
As a retired Motorman Instructor it was our instruction in school car to the trainees that the proper way to start a train was to have a standing brake test to see if you had proper duplex gauge readings and a rolling brake test to see if all your brakes were released. Also, you would advance the controller to the series position and achieve at least 10 MPH and take a short reduction or brake application (about 20lbs) just to see how the brakes felt. Approaching your first station at reasonable speed you would know how good your brakes were and you would operate accordingly. Also, it was made known to us that wrapping the controller around, as was so aptly put, has the potential of shortcircuiting some of the motors in the consist to parallel or multiple and dropping the motors. I always noticed a smooth transition if the controller was advanced at a slow rate. I also know that if the equipment that is being operated is in excellent condition if the controller is advanced immediately to the multiple position the relays will not let it take multiple until it has gone through the switching and series phases first. But that's only with equipment in optimum condition. I trust it would be difficult to find that kind of equipment in any regularity.
Also, before retiring I witnessed an influx of MMIs that would probably have trouble scrapping a platform. No one in their right mind would suggest "wrapping it around". I've been told before and it works for me that if you treat the equipment gently it'll perform better and for a longer period of time as opposed to beating the perverbial crap out of it.
Bklynsubwaybob
Bob, that corresponds with what I've been taught as a volunteer streetcar operator at Branford - steady, even motion on the controller through the steps in series (and, on those cars where parallel isn't blocked, the same there as well). My biggest problem at first was learning that remaining in a resistance point for more than a couple or three seconds wasn't good for the car - keep moving on through until you reach full series (or full parallel), shutting completely off if necessary rather than holding the point.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
FYI
Switching position is just for coupling and uncoupling and just to keep the train or car moving in the yard. Keeping the controller in the switching position will turn the resistors cherry red. In school car we were taught that this is not a running position. Series and multiple are running positions.
Bob
Yep, that's what I was taught too ... however, as you know being with the show and all, any time you could buy yourself you'd try to, especially in B division. That meant trying to take off as fast as you could and it also meant trying to charge into the station and apply hard ... folks that don't do it for a living know how much time you can lose coming into a station slow or taking off too slow. Do it at enough stops, and you're five or more minutes late at the other end.
From what I'm hearing, it sounds like the (ahem) "TSS'" need to have a confab and decide what the performance requirements are - gentle, or on time ... just a thought. Moo. :)
It seems to go back and forth. When I came out last year the word was speed, speed, speed on a certain line in Queens, now it is don't take a wrong lineup followed by smoothness. Really you can still give a reasonably smooth stop while coming in hard and not lose too much time. I don't have the balls to become one of those full service guys that bleed off the last five feet, no one is going to touch those run times.
I don't know if it is because I am off of probation or that the last two wrong routes on that line were taken by vets but they lay off me a bit more this pick.
Glad to hear the red needle of sanity is higher than the black one. Heh. It's funny. For the longest time, I was an absolute WIMP in the cab. Perennially doing the "blind T/O" and arriving after the schedule of my second follower at the other end. Eventually I got in the groove, got to know my territory, learned to tell when the train was gonna shaft you and I eventually slid into the "attack mode" when running. About two weeks before I got my ticket punched, I was running EARLY. I mean, I was really getting WITH the show. Then one evening on a layup, being careful as hell after the call on to pile into that third slot on the layup, WHAM ... hit another train after my brakes went away. Determined to be equipment failure but of course it was "OK, hotshot - we saw you being agressive, we know you've gotten cocky and done something stupid" ... and amazingly when I cashed in my chips, I WASN'T being stupid, and I wasn't tired either.
Back in my day though, the only time you got supervised was if you were late, did two BIE's in one week or acted like you were smoking the wrong stuff. Otherwise they left you alone unless somebody bitched. Go figure. Sounds like some extra extra positions could be properly filled with demotions. :)
The purists would say that it doesn't matter. I'll tell you that it absolutely does matter. The TSS who insist that you wrap it around are correct except where signal or track conditions dictate otherwise. When you wrap the master controller around, the car will accellerate at a pre-determined rate of 2.5 MPH/Sec. This is regardless of customer loading since the controller steps resistance out of the motor circuit based on the current draw of the motors as measured by the logic circuits.
When you advance the master controller slowly through the three power positions you may not allow the cam controllers to notch up as fast as they might otherwise. In essence, you might actually slow the train down.
Thanks for that ... I figured that's where the benefits of modern propulsion ended up. In the old cars (and I know you still got you some R9 time way back) if you wrapped TOO fast, you could kick breakers and flash motors, so you had to get a feel for the right rate of twirl ... one thing I noted about the R68 controller is that it felt so "lightweight" compared to the thunkers of old. Pity there were no R46's out and about while we were there - would have been a hoot turning the gym locker door handle and sliding it up and down the console. :)
Steve, if I understand you correctly, this is the appropriate way of doing things today because of the "logic circuits" you mention. Am I correct in assuming that this was not always the case, e.g. the "slowly and deliberately" approach was at one time the proper way? If so, when did it change (with what car series or modification)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the pre-LoV days, if you wrapped it around, you payed a very dear price. That's because there was no low voltage control and you instantly put maximum voltage across the traction motors. They would 'unwind' as only series motors could. I don't believe that this was the case with any of the LoV cars but I'm just assuming.
Actually, the last series of cars for which this was true
(that wrapping it around would immediately place full
voltage on the motors) was the high-voltage Manhattan el
cars built up to 1903. They lacked any kind of current limit
and were essentially remote control "K" controllers such as one
would find in a streetcar. All of the IRT Subway Division
Hi-V equipment had a crude form of current limit. Basically,
you could crank the handle around, but the operating shaft inside
the master controller was not directly coupled to the handle.
There was a clockspring and escapement mechanism. All of the
accelerating relays on the train were wired in parallel (the
"0" trainline, IIRC) and so if any car were over current, a
solenoid in the master controller came in and held up the clockwork.
Quite a nifty arrangement! Of course, a blown solenoid, or
a grounded or open trainline, and you had no automatic control.
There were long passages in the IRT rulebooks about what to do
when this happened.
Good to hear from you Jeff, better yet with another High-V story. Once in a blue moon the bells ring for me! The only thing I recall in the IRT rule book regarding Automatic Feed [1916 book] was that if it failed it was to be cut out and tagged[?]and a report made at the terminal, and to run manually. Of course there may have been other operating manuals/rulebooks to cover this and other failures,lke the Troubleshooing guides we hadin the 60's.I only quote what I saw. Actually I misunderstood tht rule to mean either Flivvers believeing they were a modified High V [still do in some ways] or an early Low-V type lets say the 1916 cars. But the rule was for the High-V's and you corrected my mistaken belief that they were completely manual. Thanks.
From my 21 years experience as a motorman, sometimes when you wrap the controller around with one flick of the wrist, you get a jerk, whereas you may not get it if you notch it up. Then again I operate R42's mostly!
I remember the R42's well; the rubber band train.
I doubt that notching the controller will have any noticeable effect on the trains acceleration as opposed to "wrapping it around" in view of the fact that you would notch the controller to the next position just prior to reaching the maximum speed of the position you are vacating. When you become attuned to the sound of the train you will know exactly when to advance to the next running position.
It appears to me that there are too many schools of thought when it comes to operations. The people who are active Motormen should contact the Rapid Transit School Car at PS248 and get the genuine poop on the subject. It also sounds to me that you've got a bunch of TSS(I refer to them as that because they aren't Motorman Instructors in the wildest stetch of the imagination) out there that don't know their asses from a hole in the ground. Trust me, I know; they were coming in when I was going out.
You are correct to an extent. If you could tell when the train was approaching max speed for that position and then notch the master controller to the next position, it would probably give you a decent rate of accelleration. However, when adjusted correctly, the controller is designed to give you optimal accelleration per the design criteria. Your senses cannot be as accurate as the CMRX in the groups.
Notching up is a hangover from the "bad old days" when the
groups were not well-maintained or inspected, and generally in
every train there was at least one with a bad accelerating relay.
Notching minimized problems.
The equipment today is generally in good shape underneath.
Unless you are experiencing a problem like jerking or motors
dropping out, there is no reason to notch up, other than style.
By design, an OK train will accelerate within the safe design
limits at the specified rate.
I find in RTO there are many superstitions and oral traditions
that are rooted in bygone equipment issues. RTO training includes
only minimal car equipment stuff, even at the supervisory levels,
so unless the motor instructor has taken the initiative to learn
it independently, he or she is merely reciting the proverbial
old wives' tales.
Jeff ... I remember those "bad old days" ... I take it old 1689 is in better shape than I expected then and that's great to hear. Year ago, when you charged up, you never quite knew what you were going to get and often one standing or rolling brake test wasn't enough. When you left the terminal, you might have had it, a half hour later, you might not have. :)
For the confirmation of my feeling.
Now I will come up with a tactful thanks but no thanks the next time I get this correction.
I got a kick out of this one myself - now you see why I'd rather hang out with you guys than the straphanger set who'd rather reroute the LIRR to 242/VCP. :)
I have a website/newsletter for the off the street people. Straphangers is the only place I officially discourage people from going to.
Sign me up, bro ... I'm always willing to put in that old disclaimer of "the TA used to let me get away with this sheet, kids do NOT try this on YOUR pick." :)
Nothing like that.
More like where to get the good earplugs in bulk (which is actually controversial) and other gear some of which is not up to Hoyle, union and job issues that apply only to us. Of course statements which I may not want traced back to me. Lineups which in the present security atmosphere might be a problem with management by having it open to the public.
Does anyone know what is the Maximum Speed the A Train Can reach between 59 St. - 125 St.? It's nothing but Straight Track and is very Long.
It most certainly is not "nothing but Straight Track." Have you ridden it?
I don't know about speeds, but it saves about three minutes over the local.
I have ridden that part a long time ago, so I forgot what kind of experience it was. By Looking at the Subway Map, I see it was all Straight Track.
The subway map isn't drawn to scale, and in any case it doesn't show track configurations.
There are curves just north of 59th, around 103rd, and between 116th and 125th.
There are also timers along the straight sections.
There are also timers along the straight sections.
Curse them bloody timers!!!
::memoirs of the r10s on the A::
Something like this, I would imagine:
R-10s on the A along CPW
There are also timers along the straight sections.
.....why were they enacted in the first place?
It takes 7 minutes to ride between 59 Street and 125 Street. 3.5 city miles. So it goes about 25-30 miles per hour at its fastest point.
No, assuming your figures are correct, them imply an average -- not maximum -- speed of about 30 mph.
I've ridden an R38 n/b in this section and the speedometer read "37" after 59th St. But once you get around 72, you reduce to "27", and it stays around there until 125th St.
Average speed is 30mph, so don't listen to the grumbling SubTalkers!
If nobody else already said so..when I was a motorman back when we could move trains [they do have them slowed quite a bit since the Willy B crash] The best we could do was 45 MPH due to the timers. You didn't really have a chance to speed until about 86 in either direction as it was a slight downgrade south of there. And had some downgrades north of there but everything was on timers where you could fly. If it weren't for that we'd probably have given them the gun and then let them coast up to about 60. With an R1-9 I'd coast down from 86 st most of the way to 59;northbound was 45 to the curves at 116 st then 35, last curve 25.
It all seemed so much faster before they put those damned speedos in the cabs. But yeah, I remember all that stuff. Used to drop out the reverser and eat on the northbound. :)
Southbound sucked though. Especially in the morning.
Bilgewater on mornings. By choice I worked very few AM's!my body clock turns me on about the time you'd be halfway from Coney to the Bronx on the first return trip.Thankfully PM's were the easiest shift to get. As for north or south 59-125 I liked it either way. It was a blast. So was the Queens Express. Especially with R1-9's.
Heh. Well, being fresh meat at the time, I was handed the splits. Talk about being braindead all day. And getting to chill my jets for 5 plus hours twiddling my thumbs at Stillwell 5 days a week. Convinced me that I needed to look for another job it did. :)
I remember a 45 mph sign along the n/b express track at about 81st or 86th St. There is still a 40 mph sign along the s/b express track at one point.
Ya know what's funny about those signs? Normally in coast you were doing that speed at those spots anyway and had to take no action whatsoever. :)
The fastest point is northbound between 103 and 110 on 4 track where the highest speed to attain for the next timer to clear is 41 mph.
Southbound, approaching the first set of timers near 86 Street, the train should be doing about 38 mph.
C'mon Z'Man....WeBe NoStupido...new trainsets clocked at 40 mph...TA gets you there safely...slowly. Crew bugs me to go to Subway School by subway...I'll drive...saving an hour of time and being able to go 'shoplifting' after duty. I love my trainsets and do well for my crew but as you get older you relish your free time. CI Peter
as you get older you relish your free time
Amen.
As other posts have said, about 40 mph at its fastest. But that's a big step down from the good old days of the R10's and no grade timers!
Yeah, it is a step down from the good old days when the R-10s ruled. Back then, you'd be thundering and blazing past 81st St. n/b at 45-50 mph. Today, the R-38s get up to 37, perhaps 38 mph.
Aye Agree! The stretch between 125 and 59 on the A
was by far the FASTEST section of track known
(to me atleast) in the 1980's to early 90's...
..with r10s of course!
The Queens express along Hillside Ave. (beyond Union Turnpike) was also known as a racetrack. One R-6/7 F train got up to A-440 once (trust me, that's fast) and a train of R-10s once was equally fast, if not faster.
The R-10s were tailor-made for long express runs.
But that's a big step down from the good old days of the R10's and no grade timers!
If those days were so good, the grade timers should be ripped out and sold for scrap metal - then put a real train down there :D
Today's Newsday had a full page article about Bob and his trolley plans. Unfortuneately it is buried as the very last page in the main section of the paper just inside the back cover.
It may be available on line at www.newsday.com
Here's the article.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the New York City edition of Newsday, the article is on page A3 of the main section. I guess they think it's more appropriate for City readers than for Long Island readers.
It was a good article,however it failed to mention the ex-MBTA PCC car he is restoring.
Yesterday, Thurston, BMTman, David Shanske and myself carpooled up to Branford. Shanske piloted a trolley and gave tours. We had three charter groups yesterday.
BMTman, Thurston and myself were met up there by Larry Rebird R33. We brought R-17 # 6688 over to the shop and proceed to sand, clean and prime the roof in preparation for painting the roof grey. Larry was renamed Redbird R-17 for the day. He was on the top of the roof sanding and painting. Had the sun been stronger he would have been as red as his beloved 'birds. The job was finished at about 7PM and now the roof just needs the grey coat of paint to be finished. Also helping out was Lou Shavell, project leader. I believe that after the roof is finished the sides will be spray painted and then the car will be almost completed.
Gee Thanks Allen,
Glad to hear the other "SubTalkers" at Shoreline yesterday are invincible.
Just cause we didn't get down & dirty? As you stated
we had three charters to tend to, besides the general public.
So up front & visible, were Big Lou from Broklyn & Sparky assisted
by Dennis Shore [the voice of MTH subway cars] tended to the
operating choirs of the day. Besides, Lou & I were on the early
shift to cover the early...early charter.
That twas half a doz subtalkers at BERA. >G<
:-) Sparky
Sparky - there was no disrespect intended to any other volunteer or Sub-talker up at Branford Saturday. Just wanted to alert everyone as to the progess made and to let people know how much can be accomplished when a group of volunteers work as a team.
You have to realize that the ladders were only 12 feet high..Not high enough to look over the roof of the adjoining barn to see everything else going on.
Hopefully with the dedicated group of volunteers and perhaps getting a few more Sub-talkers into the fold we can really get the museum moving.
I heard somewhere that the R143's are not running on weekends. I tried to find one last weekend, on the L, without success, so this may be true.
Does anyone have any information.
There's some sort of major track repair happening on the L line on weekends, and because of this construction work, the trains run in "sessions" as one transit worker put it. Because of these sessions, the R-143s wouldn't be able to run because the automated announcements would be all screwed up. Therefore, the R-143s won't be used on weekends until the work is finished.
Maybe someone has a better explanation? ^_^
No it wouldnt, I believe the GO calls for split service at Bway Jct. The R143s can run on the Bway Jct to Canarsie section. They're programmed to say shuttle to Bway Jct and Canarsie. Also Ive seen R143s run when there was split service GO on the L line.
My first ride on the an R-143 was when the L was running in two segments, 8th Avenue to Lorimer and Myrtle to RP. The R-143 trainset was on the latter segment with all signs and announcements disabled.
I've been trying to find the contact information for the group of people from the NRHS who came up to Toronto from Buffalo yesterday for a [double - they had both cars!] PCC fan trip. I photographed it in several locations and promised to send copies of the better pictures. They have my contact information but I ended up not getting theirs, and they haven't gotten in touch with me. I've been looking on the internet but I haven't found anything of any help yet.
Thanks,
Robert King
After much discussion here on the subject of transit in Nassau County, I have (surprise!) come up with what I think is a good plan.
It integrates street cars, light rail, subway, railroad, and air!
The street cars, mostly running on a dedicated ROW (can you say "good bye parking lanes") in a north-south direction.
The LRV (elevateds to you New Yorkers) run east and west.
Subways (my cherished Myrtle / Fifth system) is extended to Nassau County.
The Long Island Railroad remains the backbone of service to Mahattan.
And oh yes, there is also an airport on the system.
Let me know what you think.
Elias
For the subway portion;are talking extentions of the E,F,J and 7 over the county line.The LRV could be easy (along the lines of SEPTA Rt 100)along former LIRR rt of ways.
There are no former LIRR ROWs... LIRR will use *all* of them!
E, F and 7 are already over crowdeded and running at capacity, no point in extending them,
The J takes too long, no one would think of using it.
If there is to be any subway expansion, you need all new routes, crossings and trunks. EVERYTHING ELSE IS ALREADY FULL!
My drawing is for all new infrastructure (except for the LIRR of course, which likely enough bump up their capacity too.
Elias
It seems very comprehensive. How about a list of streetcar routings which you propose?
Yes, I have that list, I just havent added it to my web site yet.
Organized by hubs:
(Roosevelt Field)
R1 Hempstead via Clinton Road
R2 East Rockaway via Franklin Avenue
R3 Oceanside via Nassau Blvd
R4 Freeport via Brookside Avenue
R5 Merrick via Merrick Avenue (Yeah.. Merrick... That is where I used to live)
R6 Bellmore via Belmore Avenue
R7 Roslyn via Roslyn Road
R8 Great Neck via Lakeville Road
(Broadway Mall)
B1 Merrick via Merrick Avenue / Prospect Avenue
B2 Bellmore via Newbridge Road
B3 Wantaugh via Wantaugh Avenue
B4 Massapequa via Hicksville Road
B5 Massapequa via Broadway
(Hempstead)
H1 Woodmere via Peninsula blvd
H2 Oceanside via Grand Avenue
H3 Mineola via Franklin Avenue
H4 Freeport via Nassau Road / Main Street
(Green Acres Mall)
G1 Union Turnpike via Elmont Avenue
G2 Union Turnpile via Meacham Avenue
G3 Port Washington via Franklin Avenue
All routes run on a 10 minute headway, clearly with greater cph where there are more cars running on a particular section of ROW.
For the Light Rail (elevated lines)
C = Old Country Road Union turnpike to Republic Airport
H = Hempstead Turnpike from Hempstead to Republic Airport
J = Jerusalem Avenue from Hempstead to Sunrise Mall
M = Merrick Road from Green Acres Mall to Sunrise Mall and Republic Airport
Again, all routes on a 10 minute headway.
Elias
What is the fastest speed allowed on the A division.
Whatever you can get the train to do.
As most of the trains are physically limited to about 44mph on straight, level track, 44 mph is probably the fastest A-division trains can go outside of river tunnels. This speed can probably be attained on the Lexington Ave. Express south of 42nd St.
As for river tunnels, I'm not sure what the timers on most are, but the Steinway tunnels keep you under 35. I've heard that Joralemon St. is faster.
Dan
I was on a 4-62 through the Battery tubes and it maintained a constant speed of 46. Also I was on a 7-bird express and it hit 46 on some stretches.
You were on a subway train through the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel? What happened when it got to the toll booth? Did the train have E-ZPass or did the passengers have to toss quarters out the windows?
(Hint: Learn the names of the river tubes or at least come up with good guesses.)
Actually, "Battery tubes" combined with the context of it being the A Division is completely unambiguous. It can only be the Joralemon St tunnels. The 2/3 tunnel doesn't get near the Battery.
Correction, not that near that you would call it the Battery tubes.
i think the JORALEMON ST TUBE IS FASTEST TUNNEL. i have seen R62s and Redbirds hit 51 in there before. but u gotta have A MOTORMAN and not a train operator! plus high speed is not allowed in transit. it just happens till supervision corrects it. a perfect example is QUEENS PLAZA. before the V came along and the F stopped at queens plaza, the E and F LITERALLY FLEW INTO QUEENS PLAZA. NOW THEY HAVE supervision and everything like wheel detectors to stop u from doing any better than 10.
The 3 usually hits 46-47 SB approaching 50th Street (just before reaching a grade timer). I was on a rerouted 5 a few weeks ago that hit 50 there. (Go Redbirds!)
I do recall reading in Uptown, Downtown that this Broadway run is indeed the fastest in the city. What I also recall is that speeds up past 60 were possible.
Much greater speed should be possible on longer express runs. As I recall BART hits 80 mph on its longer runs.
If the 7th Ave. straightaway were oh, say three or four miles long and as ruler straight as it is now, you'd have trains doing 50 easily.
I think that they have done 45 mph or close to that in the Joralemon St. tunnel.
#3 West End Jeff
Alex is correct. If there is no speed posted, you can go as fast as the train is able to go.
So, when you see an 'R' or 'R10' , you can deduce that the previously posted speed is no longer valid?
When does a motorman know when there are for sure no speed restrictions for the track they are on. Is it just a matter of knowing the territory you operate on?
"R"=Resume (no more speed limit)
"R10"=Resume with a 10-car train (so there's "R6", "R8", etc.)
All speed limits, permanent or temporary, are posted along the right side of the trackway (or at least they're supposed to be!).
David
Right; so you follow the fixed-sign-signal's speed indication until you see a less(or more) restrictive one posted, or a "Resume" sign. Just like block signals.
I had always assumed that 'R' signs were only associated with sharp curves or turnouts. I didn't realize they were more universal in use.
Simple rule of railroading - you always follow the most RESTRICTIVE aspect (be it signals or signage) ... when a sign changes that restriction (such as an R) you're home free. R's with numbers generally follow turnouts or curves with speed restrictions, a plain old green (they're still green with white letters, right?) R means you're out of the timer zone ... for now. :)
When you see an "R" followed by a number, it simply means that 'that' number of cars is clear of the reason for the slower speed. For example, you come over a X-over with 10 cars. When you see the R-10 marker, you know that ten cars have cleared the cross-over and you can resume normal operation.
I went to BWI Rail Station today and found amazing developments on Acela Trainsets without roof fairings (or shrouds).
I saw three Acela Trainsets today:
Trainset #14: both power cars 2010 and 2015 without roof shrouds
Trainset #12: only power car 2037 without roof shrouds
Trainset #1: both power cars 2004 and 2018 without roof shrouds.
Last time I saw Trainset #1 on Wednesday, both 2004 and 2018 had roof shrouds on. Four days later they are all gone. Amtrak accepted Trainset #1 just nearly four months ago. I can understand Amtrak removes roof shrouds on older in-service Acela Trainsets for easy maintenance. However, I cannot understand roof-shroud removal on newer in-service trainsets like Trainset #1. Can anybody provide the answer?
Below is the list of Acela Express power cars without roof shrouds based on the observations by the posters at trainorders.com and I:
Trainset #1: both 2004 and 2018
Trainset #5: both 2009 and 2020
Trainset #8: both 2014 and 2019
Trainset #9: 2039 only
Trainset #10: 2016 only
Trainset #12: 2037 only
Trainset #13: 2027 only
Trainset #14: both 2010 and 2015
Chaohwa
I'm guessing it's some kind of thermal related problem, maybe the rheostat on the roof got too hot in the weather.
I have noticed that several of them had them missing, too. I assumed that was due to shoddy maintenance (i.e. people not bothering to put them back on after removal for maintenance access), but apparently they are being quite consistent about it.
I saw one trainset in BOS with one or two of the panels removed, but the others remained on. This suggests shoddy maintenance.
AEM7
"This suggests shoddy maintenance"
As if being Amtrak wasn't enough of a hint?
"I saw one trainset in BOS with one or two of the panels removed, but the others remained on. This suggests shoddy maintenance. "
It suggests nothing. Without knowing exactly what was going on you can make no judgments about it. That was a very silly post. You're better than that.
"maybe the rheostat on the roof got too hot in the weather."
Perhaps you can explain what a rheostat is and where one is used on the roof of the Acela units. Is the rheostat only units marked, "BUILT BY LIONEL"?
Roof-shroud?
Typical French design -- aethestics before practiality. I wouldnt be surprised if the enclosed area was somehow holding water. The shrouds make a U shaped basin on the rooftop of the locomotive. It's probably not the most aerodynamic design, either.
Are they running like this?
Yikes! I sure hope not. The Acela train I rode to New Haven today as well as the ones I passed definitely had their roof-shroudings on. I didn't even know they could be detached.
Yes, that's the way they were running. Of course these had to be detachable -- would you like to maintain the roof equipment whilst having to navigating around a huge trip hazard?
I still hadn't been able to come up with a good reason why the roof shrouds are installed in the first place.
To answer chuchubob's question, yes they were running around like that.
AEM7
Hey those de-roof-shrouded Acelas look much better, let see them rip the whole bunch of 'em off! Call me nuts, but i would much rather see my engine's guts. This way they almost look like AEM-7 ALP-44 kin.
There is a post at trainorders.com explaining the roof shrouds on Acela Express trainsets.
Chaohwa
There is another post at trainorders.com explaining why. He is an Amtrak employee working on the NEC.
Chaohwa
That's a shame; the Acela trains look much better with them on. I hope they're able to find some way to correct the problems.
-- David
Chicago, IL
more prima facie evidence of Bombardier's exquisite and elegant designand production.
I was at 30th Street Station Saturday morning and saw three AE motors:
2002 was in the yard and still had its roof. Note NS freight train on High Line. Photo was taken through dirty window on NJT train 4613 to Atlantic city.
2014, missing its roof, was pulling train #2250.
2019, missing its roof, was pushing train #2250.
Like this:
Chaohwa
Chaohwa,
When did you photograph 2021 without the shroud? Your message on June 10 on trainorders said it was still on.
Bob
Never mind; I saw your answer on trainorders (Monday).
At that time 2021 and 2024 had their shrouds on. However last week their shrouds were already gone.
On Monday not only I took 2021 and 2024, but also took 2007 and 2028, with their shrouds gone.
Chaohwa
Where is everybody? Subtalk has been quiet recently, only saw like 30 new msgs while I had been gone 3 hours...
AEM7
That's quiet? Really. I don't think so...30 msgs is pretty normal.
That's not Subtalk! It can get pretty frisky around here, exceeding 200-400 messages in a day! I might be exaggerating the numbers, but that's a good estimate in my opinion.
It's the hangover from the Tyson/Lewis fight.
E_DOG
People do have a life. A beautiful weekend day in New York and you want people to sit by their computers all day! Maybe SubTalkers ought to go out and explore the NYCT system a bit so they can answer their own questions! I seems to me that the volume is a bit lower on the weekends tho. I still say that many postings made M-F are by people who are getting paid to do a job by a boss yet are posting SubTalk messages on company time, robbing productivity from the cmmpany which pays them to do a specific job.
Just FYI, yes, weekday traffic to the site (as a whole, incl. Subtalk) is much higher than weekend traffic.
And I'm the exception to any rule, I have much more time to sit back and read the messages on the weekends, and rarely visit during the week.
same hea. the only reason i post on weekdays in the morning is because i work the afternoon shift at mcdonalds. usually from 2-10 or 3-10. this week i might post less being that i will work 6 days
I agree with Dave, on the weekend, there's not much action with the subway, but the weekdays, you can find that out for your selves. I bet SubTalk will loaded with Messages by tomorrow afternoon.
I'm one of them company wankers when I come to visit ... usually while I'm downloading trojan horses and other nasties, I'll sneak over here and hit the message areas since I have to babysit the machine and pick the next file and site anyway. Having this window open is handy for dealing with otherwise thumb-twiddling time. :)
I usually don't go on the computer on the weekends. I have too much stuff going like working at my Detail shop and getting drunk with my friends at night :-)
Rob- check out www.masstransitmag.com. The cover story is about MARTA. Coverage also includes Regional Rail and other MARTA/Georgia info.
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dang ... my secret was revealed ....
--Mark
It depends on your work's Internet Policy. My job allows use of internet during duty free periods with some restrictions (can't run a business).
Well, don't worry, some joker like me will think of some goofy question to ask, like what was our favorite color scheme on the R-10 or something.....
Hey, I just thought of one
:)
Well since you asked...:-)
My favorite R-10 paint scheme was the racing stripe pattern used from 1966 to 1968. Too bad it didn't last longer.
Taking the 7 into Manhattan yesterday I noticed as we crossed the Queens Boulevard Bridge that there was in Sunnyside Yard a locomotive hooked up to a couple of Amtrak cars, can't remember what they were, that looked like a half-length, double-ended Acela power car. Any idea what this was?
Dan
It is called an HHP-8. Amtrak bought 15 from Bombardier as an E60 replacement.
That is a Bombardier Acela HHP-8 locomotive...it is hooked up to some Amfleets for the Northeast Corridor, to be used on Acela Regional trains...
Here are a couple illustrations of HHP-8's. The first was taken at 30th Street at the beginning of my trip to Chicago last August; the second was taken last Monday.
HHP-8
HHP-8 pulling train #170
That was the Acela HHP-8 Locomotive, HHP stands for High Horsepower and 8 stands for 8,000 horsepower. That double ended Acela is independent Loco that pulls Amtraks Amfleets Cars and these units are also replacing the old E-60 Electrics. The HHP-8 has been around for a while now.
-AcelaExpress
Here is a Link to a few pics taken of the Acela HHP-8 Loco:
http://lib2.clark.cc.oh.us/amtrak/amtACELAHHP8.html
Thanks, all.
Another question: What equipment is usually used on Acela Regional trains?
Dan
Northeast Direct BOS: HHP-8 or 2x AEM-7 or AEM-7AC
Northeast Direct Inland Route: 2x P-42
Keystone Corridor: HHP-8 or AEM-7
Empire Corridor: P-32
Northeast Direct to Newport News: changes at DC for 2x P-42
The afternoon of June 8, 2000 closed out thirty years of riding the cars that comprised the Redbirds. A stranger day on the MTA I never experienced. I'd gone to a memorial service for a longtime friend in Midtown in the early afternoon. It let out at three and I'd made arrangements to see the Tyson/Lewis fight at a bar on the Upper West Side at nine. I first took a jaunt on the Brooklyn Broadway El but to my astonishment it only went as far as Crescent Street. Now I have no idea what type of work was going on to shut down the entire Queens portion of the line but I assume it was big. Going back to the city, station repairs necessitated us going express from East New York to Myrtle Avenue. Not since I've started riding this El in 1975 had I ever gone express over this portion of the line (we also went express from Myrtle to Marcy Avenues). I reentered the city and took a #6 train uptown but to my astonishment it went express from 14th Street to Grand Central due to track work. I finally caught a Redbird on the #7 line and was again surprised to realize that all of the westbound stations from Woodside to Willets Point (save for an express stop) were closed due to station repairs or track work. Just before we entered the Willets Point station the emergency brake malfunctioned and we were stuck there for over a half hour while they tried to figure out what went wrong. The motorman's radio went dead so he had to get off the train and borrow a cell phone from a track worker to call in the problem. We finally grunted and groaned to Willets Point at which point I switched trains for the ride back to Manhattan. We went express to Woodside and after reentering Manhattan I took my final leave of the Redbirds and transfered to a #1 uptown. After seeing Tyson get smoked (hooray!) I hopped a #3 express to Penn Station but due to track work at that hour (it was after midnight) it went local and I missed a 12:35 LIRR train to Freeport by three minutes. I had to wait for over an hour for the next train and I didn't reach my parents home until after 3 a.m. In thirty years of riding these trains, I have never seen that much track/station work going on at the same time (there were no inbound F trains stopping at Delancy Street and 2nd Avenue or N trains going into Manhattan as well). I just have one question; did the entire system break down at once or is this sort of thing normal?
Eric Dale Smith
Eric Dale Smith
When you plan to do that much riding, take a little break from SubTalk and go to http://www.mta.info to check weekend service advisories. The J line only went as far as Crescent St. due to track panel replacememt between 111 St and Cypress Hills. The J line will have the same service pattern for the next 3 weekends: 6AM Saturday to 9 PM Sunday for the same purpose.
In addition to all the GOs you mentioned, there were no N or R trains through the 60th Street corridor, no G along Queens Boulevard, no direct Brighton Q service in and out of Manhattan and no 5 along the lower White Plains line. There was no uptown local 8th Avenue service from Canal to 42nd. The uptown C ran express from 59th to 145th, while the D ran local, a reversal of the normal setup. The Brooklyn-bound C ran express from Hoyt to Utica. The L was split into two parts at Broadway Junction. At least that's what I remember on Saturday. Some of these GOs may have been lifted for Sunday due to anticipated heavy ridership for the Puerto Rican parade.
There was a shuttle between Queensboro Plaza and Astoria. I'm not sure where the N to and from Brooklyn started- I suspect 57th/7th. The R ran through 63rd Street between 57th/7th and 36th/Northern. The G ran in its usual weekday pattern between Court Square and Brooklyn. The Q ran between Manhattan and Coney via the West End line. A shuttle ran on the Brighton line between Prospect and Coney, with a shuttle bus between Atlantic and Prospect. The 5 was split into two separate segments: a shuttle from 180th to Dyre and from 149th to Bowling Green as express relief for the 4 (which was good, because there have been other weekends when there was no 5 service along Lex at all, causing much confusion and anger at uptown Lex platforms lacking service notices- not to mention horrible crowding on the 4.).
The reason for all these weekend GOs in recent years is deferred maintenance- i.e. to make up for the seventies and eighties when there was no work done at all to the infrastructure, which caused horrible decay systemwide. Sometimes one wishes there could be better coordination. It seems like some weekends EVERY line is being disrupted at once- or at least two different lines serving the same general area. Even the platform guards can't keep up with all the simultaneous GOs.
On Saturday I rode the inbound J express from the Junction to Chambers. The conductor advised those needing Flushing, Lorimer and Hewes to turn around at Essex, as there was no crossover at Marcy. Loads of people got off at Marcy nonetheless, and a loud argument could be heard at the token booth- probably over transfer tickets, or the lack thereof. As usual, everyone piled off at Essex in search of the uptown F, which of course was not available. The conductor made no announcement to that effect.
Later, I rode the 3- that's right, the 3- from 23rd to 79th. Another 3 was seen on the downtown local track at Penn- where there were loads of people fuming on the express platform. At Times Square, the uptown express track was taped off. Later, I just missed a downtown 3 at 79th. During the ten minute wait for a 1, another 3 flew by on the downtown express track.
Later, uptown C and A trains arrived on the express track at 42nd, followed by a Queens-bound E. Quite a number of people passed up all three trains, despite the local track being taped off. Some were still standing behind the tape, even peering down the track wondering where the train was. Our conductor made excellent, informative annoncements into Queens, including the fact that this was the only available service at 5th, Lex and Ely. Despite his efforts, many people at those stops wouldn't get on. I heard someone ask the motorman if there was a problem with the F- they'd been waiting almost an hour!
At the Plaza, we were told the train would run local to Roosevelt due to the unavailability of the G or R. People still got off and headed for the local tracks, which were NOT taped off. Very few people seemed to get off at any local stop, but plenty of groaning and teeth-sucking was heard when we pulled into 36th. At Roosevelt, the conductor announced (several times) we would resume express service to Continental, and that local R service would be available on the same track. Most people stayed on, and several had conniptions as we flew by Elmhurst. At least one woman bellowed that "they never make any #*$&@ announcements!" While stopped at Roosevelt, an E was on the Manhattan-bound express track. But then I saw another one headed in the same direction stopped at 63rd Drive.
That was Saturday. After a few scary episodes sharing trains with paradegoers last year, I opted to stay off the trains this Sunday.
Yeah the G.O. can cause mass confusion. Especially when it seems every freakin line is running on a G.O.
That's why I generally do most of my subfanning during the weekday, when most G.O.'s are not in effect.
Suprsingly today, the 7 was on a G.O. from 10am-3pm, with no trains between Times Square and Queensboro plaza. I was suprised they chose a weekday for this general order.
This morning I was on a 7 express train, at around 9:30am out of Flushing. Fortunately we did run to Manhattan, but did terminate at Grand Central. There was an empty R62A on the Queens bound side with it's doors closed. Supervision told the T/O to proceed and lay up at a point.
Going back to Queens in the afternoon I decended to the 7 level at Times Square, just after 3pm. There was a 7 express train in the station which I boarded. Apparently we were the first train out. We waited like 10 minutes before we left, and by Queensboro plaza that train was packed, stuffed like it is more around 6pm.
I didn't see anything out of the ordinary between Queensboro and Times Square on the return trip, so I wonder what work managed to shut down the 7 line at Midday.
I had redbirds both ways, though I have seen alot of R62A trains now running on the 7.
Today I took the 6:17 from Islip to Hunter's Point! No problems.
There I caught a #7 local to 5th Ave. No problems!
There I waited just a few minutes for an F train to Avenue X - Coney Island Yard, where I was working today. (BTW: Work is something you do to support yourself and those who don't work)
This afternoon I took an F train northbound from Ave X. There was work going on in the station but it did not delay service.
Took the F to Jay St. where I waited just a few minutes for a 'C' train.
Took the 'C' train to Penn Station where I actually arrived early for my LIRR train.
Stopped at Nedicks for a hotdog.
Boarded the Babylon Lcl for a short hop to Jamaica. It left on time.
Switched there for the Montauk branch train connection (that was waiting)to Islip.
Arrived at Islip on time - car started and I got home ON TIME! Looks like you have all the fun, John.
Hey I think I had fairly good luck today as I probably made one of the last inbound 7's this morning, and service resumed shortly after 3pm at Times Square.
I just wonder what they were doing track work wise, that required the closure of the 7 line between QBP and Times Square. There were work lights up in the Steinway tubes, maybe that had something to do with it.
Usually that G.O. is only on the weekends, but I guess this job needed 3 days.
Believe it or not people were quite orderly on the 7 this AM about terminating at Grand Central. The afternoon was a different story, even though service was resuming.
We get much more of a load at Junction going outbound anytime after 3pm in the afternoon it seems, than inbound between 8 and 10am.
Main street is probably busier than Junction, but not by that much.
There was service to/from Manhattan over the weeeknd. Dont worry though, no GO's for the 7 this weekend. The Mets are back, and they play the Yankees :):) at Shea.
Clemens is supposed to face the Mets this time. Wonder if anybody will try to drill him after what he did to Piazza.
A very thoughtful article in Sunday's Sacramento Bee discusses the impact that killing someone has on the engineer.
I hope the link stays live.
Thanks to "top_bullfrog" on trainorders.com Western board.
Bob ... THANKS for that ... there's a lot of people who just don't understand why some of us who know railroaders who have been involved in fatals bristle at "darwin" episodes ... the last thing anyone wants to do at work is be an instrument of someone else's demise even though they know there's nothing they could do to stop it. So many just never ever get over it ... I'm glad to hear that there's at least one family member of a victim who realized that the train crew probably took it all just as hard as the family themselves ...
Very thoughtful.
It's a shame that many people choose this way to die, or are foolish enough to play Russian Roulette with their lives by trying to beat a train. Trust me, I've heard the stories when I was a kid in Hong Kong. The most popular method for some people to commit suicide (beside jumping off buildings) was to jump in front of an MTR (subway) train. Many a T/O never saw it coming either, as they watch helplessly.
And couple on top of that a strict schedule (Schedules must be followed. T/Os running trains from Yau Ma Tei-North Point to 205th-Stillwell, must be pretty much on time or T/Os are in serious trouble with their managers upon arrival...it's not an easy job.), work stress, and dorkheads trying to hold the door so their friend, mother and second cousin can get on the train, thus holding up the schedule. It's a harsh life for a T/O, I know.
And coupled with this kind of thing, it's plain and simple, it's heartwrenching. And some knockheads out there think it's all the train operator's fault. Those people don't realize how hard it is to be piloting subway and/or freight trains...
-J!
Have the R-142 system where all the doors don't reopen just half of the troubled door. you can't hold the door. No one can squeeze through at this point.
I have attended several suicides, the worst was a 14YM who hung himself in the family barn. His father had already cut him down and was trying to do CPR on him when we arrived. We continued the CPR of course, but it was just for show.
Death does not impact me too greatly. Death is part of your contract with life. You accepted life (like you had a choice in the matter) and likewise you must accept death. One wonders what sort of pain and anguish one must have to take one's own life, but I cannot get into the head of the other to explore this.
My best thought on the subject is: "Respect Life... but also respect death, for it too is a sacred mystery."
Elias
Am I the only one in the room to think that it's something that people just have to deal with?
Let me be clear on this; I've never attended a suicide, have never been behind the controls when a suicide occured (although I have frequently been there when animals were hit) -- but I imagine the kind of emotions that occur are not too dissimilar to the ones that occur at the scene of a major accident for those who are first on the scene. Experienced railroads are supposed to deal with the matter at hand, and live out the emotions later. I always thought that was a pretty good way to cope -- by focusing on the matter in hand, i.e. reporting the incident, obtaining a relief crew and the getting the train underway with all the customers to the destination, one is less likely to have time to feel the emotional trauma. It is true to say that the emotions will eventually come out, but when it does, it is often more controlled.
I've heard several engineers say that the three-days leave with full pay sometimes doesn't do them any favours -- because they end up sitting at home thinking about the incident over and over. Instead they need sometime just after the accident to "take their mind away from it" -- for example, working at a really busy ticket counter or something like that can be useful diversion. The other issue is that in the crewbases there's often a macho-game going on, esp. with younger engineers who refuse to admit that they have any emotions and report for work the very next day, refusing to leave the cab when the relief crew arrive, etc. In a way, it's a coping mechanism, a way of trying to live some sort of normality after a traumatic event. A few people also did this post Sept-11, including myself -- for the entire week that week, I could remember doing nothing but work, except the brief period when I decided to let the people who put up a "Peace" mural that they were totally misguided.
As for what goes on inside the head of a would-be suicide-person, it's not actually that complicated. For a number of times when I was at college I had contemplated committing suicide, and the logic works like this: firstly, you decide that your life won't get any better, and decide that *you* don't want to live; but at that point you still cared about other people, because you realize it would be difficult for others to accept your taking your own life. Then you try to make it look like an accident because you care about those who will find out (hence the "undetermined" cases of people making it look like an accident), and when you get to the final stage you no longer care how other people feel, you just want out. So the engineer of the incident train would be like the last person on your mind. I can't remember how I got through that hole. I think what happened was that my life got better before I was able to figure out how to make my death look like an accident.
I never understood those people who delibrately make eye contact with the engineer -- I suppose they somehow feel a strange emotion to the one who is perceived to be "taking their life"... I have heard at least one anecdote where a female suicide-person had learned the engineer's work schedules and picked one man, showing up to his train every time over one month and then finally letting his train take her. The story about girls who dress up in their finest clothes are all too common.
I might add..don't anybody judge. Circumstances in life can crush a person, it isn't always money either. Even some people who look lke they have the worldby the tail are crumbling inside. To reply to another post it is welcome to hear somebody in the country realized the engineer has feelings and it wasn't his/her fault.Most think of one word..SUE. Yeah, drag the other victim of it to court to live it all over again. Lucky me, in my career both with NYCT and in the west all I had was near misses, was run into twice b vehicles...thankfully nobody died when I was around.
If you operate, sooner or later, it'll be YOUR turn. Reality is NOBODY ever really gets over it though some are able to convince themselves that they are. Every time you pass the site where one of these happens, it slaps you in the face all over again. While some people can convince themselves that they're over it, I haven't met anybody yet who really truly was. Sure you deal with it, just like firefighters and paramedics have to ... but it stays with you for the rest of your life just the same ... I know a number of people who have been involved in kills - I was peripherally involved with a 12-9 on the D train as a conductor ... and I lost one HELL of a great motorman that I worked with almost every day as a result. He eventually completely lost it and resigned.
Until you've been there yourself, best not to speculate. I only wish more people realized what the receiving end of a 12-9 is like for the crew. And EVERYBODY knows there's nothing they could possibly have done to stop it. Doesn't make any difference though. For the rest of their lives, they keep reliving the event with that typical human mindset of ... "if ONLY" ... and the "if only" never ends ... doesn't matter the reality when YOU were at the controls ... unless you're completely without a heart. And I've met damned few on the railroads like that over the years.
As to the attitudes of the "victims," they seem to be so into their own thing that they never consider that the person behind the windshield would want to (or be able to) do anything to stop it. That's the spookiest part of it all. I've heard that twist a few times too.
But for those who wonder about my own personal obsession with operation Lifesaver, I wasn't even up front. I didn't know what happened until the cops stopped me from talking to my motorman that morning or going all the way up front. Still it haunts me because of what it did to my buddy. And I've known others since from around here, former Conrail guys who have "greased" the geese. Sadly, the train ALWAYS wins.
I suspect that pushings, which seem to be more of a subway only problem, must be much harder on train drivers than suicides because there's nothing voluntary about it on part of the victim (who suffers immeasuribly themselves in their last few moments before they meet the train).
-Robert King
You probably also know the cause of asphyxia in that age group too. It's way way way off topic here, so I won't go into it. But it's a rough ride for anyone who's near it.
I think that once the video game addicted, TV/Movie violence de-sensitized, Real TV watching generation hits the work force you'll stop hearing about emotional distress and start seeing hash marks on the locomotive pilots.
While I was in high school, in the late 60's, I befriended a train crew that worked on the Reading out of Doylestown. The engineer, whose name I will not mention here, allowed me to ride on the head end whenever it was safe to do so. I learned a lot of railroading during that time.
He came from a line of Reading Company engineers, with a grandfather, father, and two brothers as enginemen. It was only natural for him to follow the path.
After 40 years of 'runnin' he had the misfortune to be involved in accidents that had killed seven people - all in separate incidents.
I asked him about it once. His reply was that although it was something you can't forget, you do your best to put it away. He continued saying that he was not operating his train in a reckless manner when any of these events happened. It is just part of the job, and you can't let it get to you. Then after a few minutes he spoke again saying that as a human being you can't deny the fact that you where there, even if it was the wrong place at the wrong time.
Jim K.
Formally of Pennsylvania
>>> It is just part of the job, and you can't let it get to you. <<<
At the risk of sounding cold, this is what I have also heard, and also that anyone making a career of driving trains should expect to kill at least one person in his career, and therefore should be prepared for it. Maybe it's my military background, but I knew many people who had killed others, some intentionally, and for the most part they coped with it quite well without counseling of any kind.
It seems to be a fairly recent idea that everyone who suffers some emotional trauma needs professional psychological treatment to prevent long lasting emotional problems. Some do, but most don't.
Tom
There were two pics of the ALP-46 + Comet V cars at Newark Penn Station in this weeks Destination Freedom Newsletter w/ an article regarding their design/paint job.
The article is at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df06102002.shtml#World-class
Here are the pics:
The paint scheme's ugly, but how do the locomotives run?
Those Are great Pics, At first when I saw the Locomotive, it look ugly, but now I see it on the rails with the Comet V, it looks incredible, the Paint Scheme on a scale between 1-10, I give this a 10++++++++!
Great pics!
I hope they get assigned the Northeast Corridor, but I'm sure they are going to Midtown Direct services.
Thanks Jersey Mike. Great photos of the NJT ALP-46 electric locomotives. Nice paint scheme. Believe it or not, I like the AEM-7 locomotives on Amtrak but the boxy design has evolved into something really beautiful.
I need to ride the R7 into Trenton and back next Friday and it has the possibility of becomming a full fledged field trip. In addition to the R7 ride we could add an R3 trip to West Trenton or an R2 Trip to Wilmington with asorted Subway connections in between. If anyone is interested reply to this message.
Were all of the BRT els 9 feet wide?
Which BRT Els had to have their platforms cut back for the 10 foot cars?
All lines existing prior to the BMT Standards used approx. 9 foot car platform widths. As these lines were rebuilt (except Brighton, initially) the platforms were replatformed and otherwise modified for 10 foot cars.
It would be easier to list the lines that were never resized for 10 foot cars than those that were not. The lines never resized were Myrtle el Broadway station and south, all of Lex, all of 5th and 3rd Avenue. All of Fulton was resized to 10 foot, including Sands Street and Park Row.
All lines existing prior to the BMT Standards used approx. 9 foot car platform widths...All of Fulton was resized to 10 foot, including Sands Street and Park Row.
The Brooklyn Bridge railway used 10 foot wide cars from the beginning in 1883.
Interesting point. I imagine though that after the Bridge car service ended, the BRT station at Park Row was platformed for 9 foot cars.
When the Cs (10-ft convcrsion) came in they operated to Kings County Bridge (Sands St.) only until reaching Park Row January 1926.
I knew he'd get ya on the NY&BB RR! When through service
began in 1898, the original 10' cars were useless since
they couldn't travel the BRT el system. They were sold as
second-hand RR coaches. Now, were the platforms rebuilt
in 1898, were extenders used, or did people simply jump the gap?
My guess is that at some point they re-did the Park Row platforms (and Park Row had several rebuilds and rearrangements over the years) for 9' foot cars.
I think the fact that the C types terminated on the Brooklyn side for several months before being let into Park Row bolsters that.
I doubt that they would have people at such a busy station "jump the gap." The one place that I know of where there was a big platform gap was DeKalb Ave., S/B Brighton track. They used to keep a platform conductor there to watch and help people.
When through service began in 1898, the original 10' cars were useless since they couldn't travel the BRT el system.
The 1898 "through" service consisted of running the el train into Sands St and then coupling a cable coach onto the front. The motive power over the bridge was via cable not electricity or steam.
I believe cable service with bridge locals continued until 1908.
Electric through-service started in 1900. The 1908
date for discontinuance of the cable is correct according to
several books.
I can't imagine how they maintained such close headways having
to couple and uncouple Van Dorns on the fly!
Uncoupling Van Dorns on the fly isn't hard, just pull the pin. The Van Dorn on the other car will retain the link. (been there, done that)
I suspect that the operation had the links on the cable car's couplers. If the couplers were the same height on the el cars, a slow speed approach is all that's needed.
I suspect coupler heights were closely watched and maintained.
Remember, the whole idea behind the Van Dorn coupler was link & pin without having to hold the link, plus a Van Dorn link has a hook on one end which can be used in "automatic" coupling. The only operating problem is that the hook isn't as sure a hold as the two "non-automatic" link holes.
I'm used to well-worn couplers that never match up on the height!
But it's not so much the coupling and uncoupling of the Van Dorn
itself. What about making up the air connections and the safety
chains? The whole thing had to take a few minutes, and I think
Mr. Baumann cited a 90 second headway on that line.
Good question, but coupling to a cable car? What air? Plus, most likely incompatable with what BRT was using. Plus in the late 19th/early 20th who used safety chains?
I'm used to well-worn couplers that never match up on the height!
That's why switch irons were invented.
The Trustees of the Bridge controlled their railway, not BRT. When the El trains were handed to the Bridge Railway, BRT's practices were subservient to the Bridge Railway's.
Were the cable cars hand brake only? There had to be some way
to stop them in the terminal. The cable was only over the bridge.
At each station initially steam engines did the switching. Later
(ca 1896) some cable cars were given electric motors and type
L controllers on the platform.
Wasn't the NY&BBRR Co. absorbed by Kings County Elevated?
Certainly by 1908, when the cable was abandoned, the BRT must
have owned that already?
Actually, the Bridge Railway (and the Bridge itself) passed from the Bridge Trustees when Brooklyn became part of NYC. BRT assumed control of the Bridge Railway at that time, as the NYC Department of Bridges was not interest in the railway.
The Bridge Railway acquired new cars in 1896 from Pullman, equipped with electric motors for terminal switching. Third rail was installed, even though the cable was used in the crossing.
Interestingly, when the Tillery Steet connection was made on November 1, 1898, Kings County was still using steam and the Bridge cars hauled the el coaches over the bridge. This was only done in the Non-rush, rush hour was strictly the Bridge Railway's cars only.
The Bridge local service (cable) was stopped on January 27, 1908 after the opening of the IRT East River Tunnels on January 8, 1908.
Hilton's book The Cable Car in America is the source for the above information.
This indicates that the 90 second headway referred to was strictly the cable operation, not the through service.
Thanks for the info, Dan. Were the 1896 motor cars 9' or 10' wide?
Hilton doesn't specify, but looking at both the builder's and in-service photos I'd say 9'.
I don't know how much of a problem the extra 6 inch gap was with the gate cars. Most of the center-door cars had their center doors permanently shut.
In addition to the lower Myrtle, they ran 9 foot cars the following lines with 10-foot platforms: Centre St Subway until 1927; Broadway-Bklyn until 1950; West End until 1953 and Culver until 1954.
There never was any problem during the years that I rode them. the center doors on the cars were long since OOS.
At each stop the gateman would announce as he opened the gates...
"Watch your step getting off!"
To boarding passengers he would say...
"Watch your step!"
The gate cars shared platforms with the Standards at fifteen different stations on the Jamaica line in those days. There obviously was a larger gap with the gate cars, but perhaps people were more careful back then, for I never saw nor heard of any incidents because of the gap.
...and on the Brighton until 1927.
Also, the BMT operated 9' wide El cars on the Astoria and Flushing lines until 1949.
-- Ed Sachs
The Sleepers involved in the Auto Train wreck of last month turned out to not be as badly damaged as first thought and their avaibility will allow sleepers to return to the Cardinal and Twilight Shoreliner as early as June 21.
Talking of sleeperues, is the sleeper supposed to be operational on Lake Shore Limited between Boston and Albany on train #449? Last time I rode that train, the sleeper was O/O/S, but I wasn't sure if this is because it was defective (as claimed by the crew) or whether they have cut that service. It seems to make no sense for through BOS-CHI sleeper pax to have to sit in coach until Albany. The crew claimed there isn't normally a Viewliner on #449 and the one that was there that day is a deadheading sleeper.
AEM7
New Haven's State Street Railroad Station opened for service last week. The State Street station is located about 1 mile east of the existing MNRR New Haven terminal and is still within MNRR territory. It is a single island platform located in the middle of the NEW HAVEN EAST interlocking around where the 4 track NEC cuts through the eastern part of the city in a walled cut. The station is located between Court and Chapel streets, is within a few blocks of the city's downtown, and within easy walking distance of Yale University and its museums, galleries, and theatres. It will also help to ease congestion on I-95 as the Pearl Harbour Bridge is re-constructed over the next Decade.
Currently the station will only be served by Shore Line East commuter trains, but there is anticipation of converting MNRR MU's to run under 25Kv power for electrified commuter service all the way to Providence RI.
Why would MNRR trains need to change voltage? Is the power different west of New Haven than east of New Haven?
The power is 12kv at 60Hz on MetroNorth due to clearance restrictions. On the Amtrak Shore Line it is 25Kv at 60hz.
I guess the Amtrack trains can operate on various voltages? I remember this somewhat addressed in a thread about NJ Transit. But electicity has always confused me. My experience is more with natural gas pipelines.
No, the Amtrak trains carry their own little diesel power plant inside them, and they generate electricity to power the train without using the catenary at all.
The other ones have a little nuclear power plant in them (like the AEM7) and the little pantograph are actually there just for show so that the anti-nuclear protesters don't know that there is a nuclear power plant in the train. They think the train takes the juice from the wires.
Yeah, right!
"My experience is more with natural gas pipelines"
Oh WOW! How does *that* Pantograph work!
: )
It's not really a pantograph, it's more like a big bendy-straw!
Voltage east of New Haven is 25 kilo-volt because that allowed Amtrak to wire the NEC line to Boston with lighter weight wires and light-weight catenary poles. The electricity supply is also more efficient that way (less power lost from the supplying substations over miles of wire). Our resident Subtalk electricians should feel free to add detailed commentary...
>>but there is anticipation of converting MNRR MU's to run under 25Kv power for electrified commuter service all the way to Providence RI.
If that happens it will be possible to ride transit all the way from Newark, Delaware to Boston's norther suburbs! Then just for that annoying gap in Cecil County, Maryland I'd be able to carry out my dream of transit fanning from DC to Boston...
Mark
If that happens it will be possible to ride transit all the way from Newark, Delaware to Boston's norther suburbs! Then just for that annoying gap in Cecil County, Maryland I'd be able to carry out my dream of transit fanning from DC to Boston...
Fredricksburg, Virginia to Rockport, Massachusetts, to be specific.
Thanks! I knew VRE terminated at Fredricksburg, but I didn't know just how far north MBTA's commuter trains go.
Any rumors out there of the gap between MARC's northern terminus at Perryville, MD and SEPTA's southern terminus at Newark, DE beign filled by any sort of transit?
Mark
But it will take a few changes in Boston proper to do that. South and North Stations are not connected by Commuter Rail. So to do the trip with as few changes as possible, you would take the train to Boston Back Bay, change for the Orange Line, then to North Station to change for the Commuter Rail to Rockport.
All the better. The goal of my planned adventure is to ride as far as I can on any form of transit. It doesn't have to be commuter rail. In fact, I'm really more of a subway fan anyway, so if the situation in Boston gives me an excuse to ride the T, I'm happy with that.
Mark
But it will take a few changes in Boston proper to do that. South and North Stations are not connected by Commuter Rail. So to do the trip with as few changes as possible, you would take the train to Boston Back Bay, change for the Orange Line, then to North Station to change for the Commuter Rail to Rockport.
Good point. Of course, you'd also have to make a subway connection in New York.
Again, the whole point of the DC-Boston adventure is to railfan, so if I get to ride NYC's subway as well as its commuter trains, I'm all the happier.
Mark
Septa connections between the R-2 and R-7 are somewhat ill timed, it appears they tend to just miss each other by about 5 minutes. So there's an excuse to ride SEPTA...
And if you take MARC to Camden station in Baltimore, you can ride the light rail to get back to the NEC and continue your trip.
> Then just for that annoying gap in Cecil County, Maryland
What gap?
- Lyle Goldman
Between the MARC's northernmost terminal in Perryville, MD and SEPTA's southernmost terminal in Newark, DE there is a stretch of maybe 10-20 miles (I forget the exact number) over which there is no regular transit service of any kind. But for this little gap, one could ride transit all the way from Fredricksburg, VA to Rockport, MA.
Mark
What about Amtrak?
- Lyle Goldman
There's another gap b/t Providence RI and New London CT. That one is quite a bit longer.
Like I said before, what about Amtrak?
- Lyle Goldman
Lyle:
Amtrak does cover that gap, but my goal is to ride transit from the DC area to the Boston area. I'm not counting Amtrak as transit for my purposes, though others might.
Jersey Mike:
As for the gap in Connecticut and Rhode Island, my current plan for getting around that would be to ride the Long Island Railroad to Montauk, and catch the ferry to Block Island. From Block Island I would ride other ferries to Providence, to catch MBTA into Boston.
I know this has some glitches in it, as the ferries are seasonal, and the schedules may mean long waits in Montauk, Block Island, and Providence, but I'd consider that part of the adventure. Also, Irealize I'm being somehwat arbitrary in that I consider ferries to be transit but not Amtrak. Others may see things differently and use different rules. That's okay with me.
Mark
How would you get from Montauk Village to Montauk Harbor?
I just saw the 10C on the Suffolk County Bus Map.
Currently the station will only be served by Shore Line East commuter trains, but there is anticipation of converting MNRR MU's to run under 25Kv power for electrified commuter service all the way to Providence RI.
Shit. Amtrak had better watch out, we don't want the entire NEC turned into one giant subway with all trains taking equally long and stopping at all stations.
As condition of granting MNRR trackage rights, Amtrak should insist having at least one dedicated track between NHV and NYP. The operating plan would be as follows: in the morning, the track should be reserved for Acela and NortheastDirect trains travelling southbound, and during the afternoon it should switch to northbound. Metro-North trains will be allowed to use the track if they are passed for 110mph and make only the following stops: New Haven, Stamford. That particular track would be fitted with upgraded catenary suitable for 150mph operation at the expense of Amtrak.
Time for MNRR to buy some Metroliners (or whatever the modern equivalent is)
AEM7
This seems like a really good idea (I especially like the Amtrak finally getting something from MNRR finally), the big problem with running high speed trains into GCT is that only the M2s can make the Cat-Third Rail jump, an AEM7, HHP-8, or ALP44 would be stranded there. It would be nice to see another dual mode Cat/Third Rail EMU or Locomotive out there, I've been mulling over some ideas for a while.
So far I've come up with this:
Conndot buys some HHP-8s, ALP44s/AEM-7s, or ALP-46s, some Comet whatevers, and runs NYP-New London trains with electric power all the way out. In the Morning, the locomotive pulled trains are express past NHV, making all local stops back to Providence, New London, or wherever this line ends up (Portland?), only stopping at Stamford enroute. This plan would call for the massive rebuilding of New Rochelle into a larger, maybe 6 track, two island platform station. The NYP bound Conndot express, pulled by the AEM, ALP, orHHP, comes into the station to find a waiting GCT bound M2 local. Passengers have the option of a One Seat ride into the city that takes a little longer, or a slightly faster trip in on a M2 the way trains go today. The transfer is right across the platform, and the Express departs first for the Hells Gate Bridge. The M2 local leaves a little bit later and heads for GCT just like all other M2s. The afternoon is exactly the same, the M2 local arrives first, then the locomotive pulled train comes in, and people can transfer from the express to the local, or visa versa.
Well thats it,
thanks
but there is anticipation of converting MNRR MU's to run under 25Kv power for electrified commuter service all the way to Providence RI.
Well.... CDOT is rebuilding a few M-2s. A little known fact - the M-2s already have 25kv taps on the transformers, and support for it, they just don't have the vacuum breaker and tap changer needed to physically change taps.
They'd also have to be re-fitted with ACSES (or whatever that system Amtrak has is called), and probbably certified/tested for 100-mph operation (or 110mph, that'd be neat to watch out the front on!). Both are quite trivial, though.
It may happen. At least to New London. It sure would be cool, not to mention, put the pressure on Amtrak to improve the NE Direct service...
It may happen. At least to New London. It sure would be cool, not to mention, put the pressure on Amtrak to improve the NE Direct service...
You know what? I would buy MNCR if they can run BOS-NYP or even BOS-GCT in less than 2 hr 30 mins. In all honesty, I don't really care who operates the service. If MNCR operates it and manage to make the train service better than what Amtrak is offering, for whatever reason, then I'm only too happy to run with MNCR. The problem is that MNCR has been incompetent in running anything resembling an intercity service. They seem to think that every train must stop at Cos Cob. Or was it Cob Cos? Even NHV-NYP I would not ride MNCR, only because MNCR trains are annoying, stop at too many places, and have zero customer amenities. The possibility of having a nice cafe car attendent is worth the extra $40 or so I pay.
It's Cos Cob (don't know the name's origin). Only (most) local trains out of Stamford stop at Cos Cob, express trains from New Haven don't. Actually some MNRR trains on the New Haven Line do have a bar car, although they may be phasing them out.
Metro-North's NH line is a commuter line. Its goal is to get commuters from New York's suburbs in Connecticut and Westchester into Manhattan. Although they offer deals to popular SE Connecticut destinations like Foxwoods and Mystic, don't expect to see M-N trains going past New Haven anytime soon. M-N is not there to compete with Amtrak and they're definitely not gonna do it east of NH on Amtrak's own tracks and vice versa. Even the Amtrak-operated Shore Line East trains that were extended to Stamford in December don't really compete with M-N trains. Those SLE trains are meant to transport commuters from SE Connecticut to Stamford, which has become a significant commuter desination. There isn't going to be Metro-North service to New London or Hartford or Albany, and definitely not to Providence or Boston (what, is there not enough T service up there?).
How about extending the MBTA from PVD to New London?
MBTA only serves Providence from the north. There is a market for commuter rail approaching Providence from the south. That market is unserved now.
They would only need the ACSES to exceed the 120mph limit of the current cab signal system.
This development is a good thing. It offers the prospect of service improvements, including seamless commuter rail coverage from Boston to Newark, DE:
MBTA from South Station to Providence
Shore Line commuter from Providence to New Haven.
Metro-North to GCT (subway to Penn)
NJT to Trenton.
SEPTA to Newark, DE.
One problem: Isn't New London a place where the line narrows to two tracks, and trains can't even pass each other within the station due to the curves?
One problem: Isn't New London a place where the line narrows to two tracks . . .?
Actually, the whole line from NH to BOS is two tracks.
Aha. Yes, true. So perhaps we need at least a third (passing track) along part of it.
I thought part of the route south of Boston was 4 tracks, though, leaving South Station. Does it narrow right away to 2 tracks?
4 tracks Boston to Back Bay
3 tracks Back Bay to Hyde Park (or some point north of there)
2 tracks to Readville
3 tracks at several points beyond Readville, but the 3rd track belongs to CSX and probably has a 10mph speed restriction or something silly
2 tracks all the way to Providence (but it's Rule 261)
Not sure beyond PVD, but it should be all two tracks until NHV
What's Rule 261?
- Lyle Goldman
Thank you for that info. Maybe MBTA could be persuaded, and given the money, to add more tracks...some day.
Is there enough right of way to expand the line to four tracks, at least from New Haven to New London?
- Lyle Goldman
Actually, that is a bone of contention -- at least at the BOS end. For example, the advocates of the Indigo Line (thats the Readville Commuter Rail) claim there is a 4-track right of way between Readville and BOS so they can have transit line running alongside heavy rail. The last time I went out there and looked it wasn't a 4 track right of way. All the bridges were designed for 2-track RoW, but the RoW itself is physically large enough to squeeze 4 tracks in, although you may have to buy some land (ownership not always obvious from looking at the physical RoW -- some of the land ownerships are downright screwy, e.g. sometimes the 4-track is owned by the RR except at various properties along the line where there had once been sidings belonging to industrial customers who then resold the land for development and the little siding got sold with the devlopment and the developer built over the siding...).
For the Shore Line, in general the RoW is enough for 4 track if you were allowed to landfill. But if you were trying to do it on the cheap, forget it. That entire line is basically either coastal or on a causeway, or is a drawbridge. It was never meant to be a high speed line. I have often said that the real HSR between BOS and NYP is in fact the inland route. That leaves the problem of how to serve Providence. Maybe a rework of the abandoned alignment from Hartford via Andover, CT; Plainfield, CT and Natick, RI is the way to go. New London, with all its drawbridges that get stuck and track that gets washed into the Atlantic Ocean, can forget it.
Why did they spend the Acela money there? Because it's the only piece of flipping track they own.
AEM7
The Inland CSX Boston Line is totally unsuited for HRS. There are way too many sharp curves and grades. The line cuts against the grain of New England out of the coastal zone, along a river, over the New England divide and into the CT river valley.
I agree with you, AEM7. When I ride the Readville Shuttle (otherwise known as the "Fairmount Line") out of Boston's South Station, I note that most of the ROW is unsuitable for 4-track operation without major land-taking and the replacement of numerous bridges. It ain't gonna happen.
I fully support the idea of converting this to light rail (hey! how about a 2nd PCC line for Boston?!).
Where does this "Readville Shuttle" go?
- Lyle Goldman
Readville.
OHHHH!!!!
Dude, you left yourself wide open!
That's like asking, "What time does the 5:00 train come?"
Thanks! You're a big help!
Could somebody please be a little more specific? Like, where is Readville, and what are the terminal stations?
- Lyle Goldman
Read the thread, they're obviously talking about a Boston commuter line.
One hundread ten MPH with RRailffan Windoows,,,, aaaaahhhhahhhhhaaa
I'asm III drreamming?
Saw the new station on my way home after a day at Yale taking the LSAT exam (glad that's over). It's nice, but I'm surprised at the lack of amenities at the station, given its near-downtown location. There's not even a ticket booth. I guess SLE's rush-hour oriented schedule, they didn't need to provide too much. But it was well-designed. I also saw an SLE train heading for New Haven Union Staion passing through the new station while walking down State St to go catch a MN train back to New York. I also saw a Boston-bound Amtrak train being pulled by just one AEM-7. Don't they have to use two AEM-7's in Boston service?
MN to Providence? Rhode Island? Where did you hear this? Who in their right mind at the MTA or ConnDOT, or even RIDOT, would even think of suggesting MN service from GCT to Providence? That's 170 miles! It would take a million years to get from one city to the other, given all the stops commuter trains have to make. I really would like to know where you heard about MN service possibly being extended to Providence. I did see on the MTA Metro-North page that select New Haven Line trains will serve the State Street station, but nothing about them going to Providence, or even New London.
I also saw a Boston-bound Amtrak train being pulled by just one AEM-7. Don't they have to use two AEM-7's in Boston service?
Authorized haulage capacity Shore Line, AC motors:
AEM-7: 7 Amfleets
AEM-7AC: 10 Amfleets
HHP-8: 11 Amfleets
AEM-7 x2: 12 Amfleets
Some BOS trains, esp. short-formed ones, can be just 7 coaches. The authorized capacity isn't strict anyway -- on a good day, AEM-7s can really pull even when alone.
Who in their right mind at the MTA or ConnDOT, or even RIDOT, would even think of suggesting MN service from GCT to Providence?
Actually, it makes a lot of sense. It's like the Baltimore-Washington corridor, MARC Penn Line runs an "intercity commuter" service. The reason to run a NHV-PVD through train is to lower the costs of providing commuter rail north of NHV and south of PVD by sharing equipment (and providing through journey opportunities is a secondary goal).
AEM7
But Baltimore and DC are only 35 miles from each other while Providence and New Haven are 95 miles. Also PVD and NHV are much smaller cities than Baltimore and DC are. I would think that the Penn Line is a commuter run because it only runs Mon-Fri and only during rush hours does it go to Perryville, MD.
Even the proposed Inland Route commuter service (hope it happens!) between New Haven, Hartford and Springfield would be 60 miles long. I for one definitely want to see more train service north of New York. I do see your point. It might be better for ConnDOT and RIDOT to pool resources and money into running one commuter line that serves the commuters to both cities as opposed to having two separate trains that terminate within a few miles of each other on opposite sides of the state line, which would probably happen if RIDOT went at coomuter train service alone. But it definitely won't be Metro-North service.
Do you know why AEM's have such crap hauling capacity? A gg1 could easily haul an 18 car train of heavyweight steel coaches. Same for the old 3rd rail DD1's and NYC T-1's. Is it not enough TF or HEP limitations or what.
Do you know why AEM's have such crap hauling capacity? A gg1 could easily haul an 18 car train of heavyweight steel coaches.
That's comparing apples and oranges. GG-1 has 12 driving wheels, AEM-7 has 8; AEM-7 doesn't weigh 200 tonnes; AEM-7 are authorized for 125mph; AEM-7 has some acceleration (you watch the accelerometer gauge when GG-1 hauls 18 coaches). Also, AEM-7 works the Shore Line = curves. If you watch AEM-7 on Penn Line, they can haul considerably more. Also, Amfleets are longer, so the pax capacity of one Amfleet is easily 1.5 heavyweight Pullman cars.
That's why I say the maximum authorized hauling capacity isn't that strict. On deadhead moves, or on the old train #12 (That was the 03.10 WAS departure for BOS and/or SPG), you used to see an AEM-7 with 7 Amboxes and then 5 more Amfleets and then one or two deadheading Viewliners. On that kind of run, there's extra time built into the schedule and the thing accelerates more like an E-60.
AEM-7
An Amfleet might seat more, but it weighs less than an old pullman.
As to the acceleration of a GG-1, ask chuchubob how well the #4800 pulled that fan trip back in 1976.
You tell 'em, Mike. In spite of the gaudy appearance, 4800 hauled Tusch!! She accelerated quite smartly southbound out of 30th Street pulling an E60 (for HEP only) and 22 coaches. The acceleration was such that I assumed that the E60 was also working, but we were informed that it wasn't.
... taking the LSAT exam (glad that's over).
Any idea which law school you would like to attend yet, and what area of law you think you would like to specialize in?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Glad you asked. I had been looking a lot of law schools here in the NE. I started looking in April, and was trying to see if I could get in for this fall. So I looked at schools with rolling admissions like Quinnipiac, Roger Williams and Widener universities' law schools. But I'm planning to apply for the fall of 2003, so I'm going to broaden my search for law schools over the summer. I would like to do international law. Thanks for asking.
Mike
Mike -
As it happens, my younger daughter is studying international law... just completed her second year at Georgetown. Email me (cleverett@comcast.net) and I'll offer what insights I have, based on her experience at Georgetown (loves it) and the other schools to which she applied.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks - I'll see what I can do.
If they go at 200 mph (TGV speed, not acella) to 280 they will be okay!
Wait a minute. So now, the Shore Line East trains will be stopping at a different station than Metro-North and Amtrak?
- Lyle Goldman
No, they will still stop at New Haven Union Station right after they stop at State St. Several SLE trains now run through to Bridgeport and Stamford and many people who ride SLE trains that end in New Haven change to MN, so they have to stop at Union Station. But several MN trains per day will stop at State St too, check the MTA's web site.
Metro-North does serve State Street, as of June 24.
http://www.mta.info/mnr/html/planning/stations/nhl-state.cfm
It's even shown on the system map.
That must be new - I didn't see State St on the MN map a few days ago. Good to know that MN will be stopping there.
In the track maps section, the Bronx Map (big) doesn't work--
Here's the web address-
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/bigbronx.gif
I tried refreshing the page, but all I got was that little box with the red x.
I image is too big, try right clicking and saveing it as target and view it offline with another program.
No, it's not THAT big, the 1968 route map is much bigger...it's something with the page itself.
Thanks, though, for the idea.
Just checked for ya - it's THERE and just dandy. I'll bet you're using Billy's Aiyee browser and if so, it's bombing the browser. Works just fine in Netscape ... do the right click, "Save target as" and have a look at it offline or in a graphics program. But the link is good, it's the browser that's a piece of ... ahem. :)
Works just fine in Opera, too.
I'm sure Microsoft will stomp some of the insects in Windows 2004. After all, Windows is like the lottery. If you buy enough copies of the same old, same old, eventually you'll hit a winner. :)
After all, Windows is like the lottery. If you buy enough copies of the same old, same old, eventually you'll hit a winner. :)
Very true... Now I know this is getting VERY OT, but take a look at this...
http://www.funnywebsite.com/brooklyn.shtml
Works just fine for me with IE 6.0.
Maybe it's just someone's computer.....
Definitely a browser problem, in fact I seem to recall there being a warning to that effect on that page...
Yes, you're right, there was a warning--
It worked for me in Netscape, thanks to someone on this boards
suggestion. I guess it was just too big for my IE5.
But thanks to you and everyone for your help, I really enjoy the comraderie on this message board.
This is sort of a rant, but I think it's important:
In my humble opinion, the the biggest service omission in the Dual Contracts was the failure to make a Bronx crosstown line...getting from the East Bronx to the West Bronx by train or bus can be a nightmare. Let's say you want to go from Burke Av. on the White Plains Line to 170th St. on the Woodlawn Line. On the map, it looks easy..just go down to Grand Concourse/149th and switch for an uptown 4. But with Bronx train schedules, especially on the weekend, it's easier to go by bus, plus you'll probably get closer to the address where you're actually going. That being said, taking the bus from west to east or vice versa takes a hell of a long time. It seems when they planned the Bronx subways, they were just thinking about getting the most people to and from Manhattan. I think it's actually one of the reasons the Bronx doesn't have a lot of economic strength, it's easier to work and shop in Manhattan. I lived in many neighborhoods in the Bronx and Brooklyn, and it was SO much easier to travel around Brooklyn.
Other's opinion on this subject...?
I'm actually interested in how my fellow Bronxites feel....
If it had been built, the D train would have at least taken care of the northern end of the equation. But alas, like a replacement 3rd avenue el, all talk, no walk. :)
OK, could you elaberate on the original plan for the "D". I was built to the point we know it today. Is your message that the turn to the east at the 205th Street Station ment to be the begining of an eastward leg?
There was a plan to extend the Concourse line down Gun Hill Road to around Burke Avenue.
Whne it came time to look at it seriously, it was decided that buying the ROW of the bankrupt NY, W and B would be cheaper. So they went that way and the Dyre Avenue line was born.
(This may also partially explain why it started out as a division of the IND running old IRT equipment).
You betcha ... it's even here on nycsubway.org in the IND second system plans ...
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/indsecond.html
Quote:
Concourse Line Extension: From 205th and Bainbridge, along Burke Avenue to Boston Road, and then along Boston Road approx 2 miles to Baychester Avenue, 2 tracks. This would thus be an east-west Bronx line heading in the direction of today's Co-op City, and would include a transfer with the White Plains Road line at Burke Avenue.
"But alas, like a replacement 3rd avenue el, all talk, no walk. :)"
Actually, if you want to get from here to there, you *will* have to walk!
Elias
Beats the damned bus every time. Heh.
Especially if it's the M96 - the slowest bus in the 5 boroughs with an average speed of 4.3 MPH!
--Mark
But it's an "M" bus ... sheesh ... you were expecting to GET there? That's what LEGS are for. :)
Good point!
I've waited what seems like forever, out in the freezing cold, for that bus to come.
MATT-2AV
I'll tell you where a Bronx cross-town line would come in very handy. A Queens-Bronx line that intersects Yankee and Shea Stadium. It is too bad they couldn't connect one Bronx line with a Queens line to accomplish this. It would really add some pizaaz to the rivalry, as when that SOB Clemens tries batting at Shea this weekend. I'd give almost anything for Leiter, Astacio or D'Amico to put one right between his eyes when he steps to the plate. I'd like it ever better if the Mets could sweep those Yankee bastards. But the Mets are playing so poorly just a 2-1 edge in the series would be like manna from Heaven.
At least you'll be able to talk while you walk.
As a side question, does the Bx55 have limited service?
Yes,
It stops only where there used to be 3rd Av El stations.
I'm not a Bronxite, but the theory of subways/els in the Bronx is to get the people to the central business district (Manhattan) quickly.
Intersecting streetcar lines would take care of cross Bronx travel. The (GG) Crosstown line was for people to travel between Brooklyn and Queens, thus bypassing Manhattan altogether.
Bill "Newkirk"
Point taken (about the G)..that's probably why the line suffers from low ridership.
Still, the people of Brooklyn and Queens HAVE the G, which is more than the people of the Bronx have...
The problem isn't limited to the Bronx. Ever take a Manhattan crosstown bus? See some recent comments in BusTalk for a taste of how slow the M79 and M86 have gotten -- it's often faster to walk or to take the subway down to 42nd, across, and back up.
I've suggested that the 2nd Avenue subway be extended west across 125th Street to the Hudson, to at least offer some degree of relief.
Today's Daily News has an article on the Slow bus routes, the ones you mention are below 4MPH for average speed, slowest in the city. As talked about last week, I often find it faster to walk from 10th Ave & 57 to 7thAve than wait for the bus. But that is more to do with infrequent schedules.
Because of the difficulty and cost in building subway lines, regrettably, these lines must follow the paths of greatest demand. Money for transit doesn't grow on trees, and at the end of the day, operations must be optimized for profit.
Just because you need to get from the East Bronx to the West Bronx doesn't mean that the majority of Bronx residents aren't travelling to Manhattan, and the existing service patterns reflect this.
Now mistakes in planning have been made along the way, and sometimes people even benefit from a mistake. A shining example is the Cross-town IND line. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad that it was built. I take what I can get. But what are they running now? Four car trainsets of R-68/R-68As (I forget which...) on rather long headways? I have actually ridden the (G) during the morning rush, and found the trains to be wastefully, if not pleasingly, empty.
But a good (for us) mistake is still a mistake, and the MTA knows this. In order for a subway line to be profitable, it must have high ridership. Empty trains don't turn a profit.
I'm not saying that cross-town transit needs to be improved. Aside from reducing crush loading on various existing transit lines, I believe that improving cross-town (or secondary) transit arteries is the next highest priority.
A lot of the times, bus service just doesn't cut it.
Unless there is a major paradigm shift in this country regarding transit funding, I suggest the more constructive approach is to propone transit alternatives such as surface light rail (trolleys, whatever...) and dedicated ROW. In Manhattan, many cross-town lines are ideally suited to being replaced by dedicated ROW transit, as there are relatively long distances between intersections.
Take East 86th Street for example. If you got rid of the metered parking that is on both sides of the street, you could keep the same amount of ROW dedicated to car travel. Now what do you do about the parking shortage? Well, that's why this is easier said than done...
No, light rail and dedicated bus ROWs aren't as sexy to our railfan hearts as the subway, but just imagine what an improvement it would be over stewing in gridlock on a cross-town bus.
MATT-2AV
(I suggest the more constructive approach is to propone transit alternatives such as surface light rail (trolleys, whatever...) and dedicated ROW.)
The Pelham Parkway/Fordham Road corridor would be an ideal place for bus rapid transit. You already have grade separation at Southern Blvd. and Grand Councourse, and a long distance between cross streets on Pelham Parkway. Put in underpasses at Jerome and Webster, and a dedicated bus lane with stations, and you'd really have something.
You'd have to give up the parking lanes on Fordham Rd, however.
Pelham Parkway would be just about the most suitable street in the City for use by trolleys - plenty of space for their own ROW, so it would be a quick route.
My personal suggestion is for two trolley trunk routes, forming an X across the Bronx, with one of the lines having two branches at each end:
1a. BROADWAY - MARBLE HILL (Manhattan), 225th St, Kingsbridge Rd, Fordham Rd, Pelham Pkwy, Burr Av, Shore Rd, City Island Av, BELDEN STREET - CITY ISLAND (Bronx)
1b. BROADWAY - INWOOD (Manhattan), 207th St, Universiyt Hts Bridge, Fordham Rd, Pelham Pkwy, Hutchison River Pkwy, CO-OP CITY (Bronx).
2. 242ND STREET - VAN CORTLANDT PARK (Bronx), Broadway, Van Cortlandt Pk S, Grand Concourse, Bedford Park Bvd, Southern Bvd, Bronx Pk S, Boston Rd, Whitlock Av, Drake St, Halleck St, HUNTS POINT MEAT MARKET (Bronx).
I have two further ideas for routings but I think these would be less successful:
3. MAIN STREET - FORT LEE (NJ), Lemoine Av, George Washington Brg, Haven Av, 181st St, Washington Brg, University Av, 176th St, Jerome Av, 177th St, Tremont Av, HARDING AV - THROG'S NECK (Bronx).
4. BROADWAY - MARBLE HILL (Manhattan), 225th St, Major Deegan Expressway, 135th St, Triborough Brg, Hoyt Av, Astoria Bvd, Runway Dri, LGA (Queens).
Take East 86th Street for example. If you got rid of the metered parking that is on both sides of the street, you could keep the same amount of ROW dedicated to car travel. Now what do you do about the parking shortage? Well, that's why this is easier said than done...
Remove the cap on off-street parking spaces south of 96th Street and allow new private garages to open and to charge what the market will bear. In this city, buses should always receive priority over private automobiles.
I had never thought of it that way, but I agree with your assertion completely -- public transportation should always bear precedence over private in a city as densely populated as New York.
You could probably get away with keeping street parking on side streets and eliminate it on primary cross-streets (and possibly the avenues?). That seems like a lot of spaces, but if you assume that every 8th street is a primary cross-street, that's a reduction in parking of only 12.5%.
MATT-2AV
Actually most of the rail lines were built for quick rides into Manhattan. If such as your case, finding it easier to get around Brooklyn, just coincidence that you're in the right place.I used to go from Cypress Hills to Bensonhurst evry Saturday..a nightmare by rail or bus. Too bad the Cross Bronx Expwy. doesn't have a median strip...I don't think it does. Crosstown from Jerome to Throggs Neck or so. Wishful Thinking.
"Too bad the Cross Bronx Expwy. doesn't have a median strip...I don't think it does."
It doesn't even have shoulders in some places, let alone a median. Hence the reason why a single DAV can have such extensive ramifications. The expressway was really shoe-horned in there. It's a shame...
MATT-2AV
How many lanes wide is the Cross-Bronx Expressway?
Not enough!
Seriously, I think its pretty much 3x3 in most parts.
MATT-2AV
Just out of curiosity, Why would someone go crosstown in the Bronx? There is always visiting friends and family, but are there many people trying to go crosstown for employment or shopping? If so, what are the common destinations?
To support Mass transit, you need a mass of people needing transiting. I wonder if there is a viable bronx crosstown that could be supportable.
The Bx12 (Fordham Road-Pelham Parkway crosstown) is a very busy route; even with articulated buses it's overcrowded.
An extension of the A train from 207th Street under Forham Road (at least to Webster Avenue, perhaps to White Plains Road) might be justified, particularly since it would be an extension of an existing service instead of an entirely new route.
And then the A train can be the record holder for the only subway to go into *4* boroughs! I've always been disappointed that the A train is so close, yet so far to getting into the Bronx.
Since the A DOESN'T go to the Bronx, the how does it go to 4 boroughs?
Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, and ???
Pottsylvania. Sheesh ... gotta tell you EVERYTHING? :)
Commuting would be a good reason, aside from shopping a employment. It saves some people the trouble of taking their chances with the crosstown buses in Manhattan, since they could take a bus like the Bx12, Bx22, Bx36, and Bx40/42 to get to whatever subway they need.
At this point, the Bronx is simply a bedroom community for people who work in Manhattan and other places. When NYC was consolidated and the IRT chartered this is what planners had in mind (think Harlem and the multitude of lines that go through and where planned to go through the area) However, current economic development plans will change this; there's the Fulton Fish Market coming up to Hunts Point (remind me to hold my nose!), and there's plans in the works for office space to go up around "The Hub," which could potentially turn the area into a "downtown" so to speak and make the borough more economically self-sufficient. The bus network in the Bronx is well-geared for this (more than you would think), since most routes either come across subways that head for what would be the CBD of the Bronx, across bus lines that head for the CBD, or are bus lines that head for the CBD themselves.
The IRT should have built at least one Crosstown rapid transit line or perhaps even two. One along Gun Hill Rd. and the other along Tremont Ave. Perhaps there could have been another line along Fordham rd. that would have connect the IRT White Plains Rd. line with the IRT Broadway line. The only problem wpuld have been the hiil in University Heights.
#3 West End Jeff
This was posted on the (pardon the expression) Straphangers Campaign board.
It was posted by a T/O (he still calls himself a motorman) who said he heard it from a deputy superintendent. I never give the guy much credibility but I figured I'd share this with our board.
"I won't go into the responses he got but this is what he said: "The powers that be at the TA have done it again. They apparantly have decided that once service is restored on the #1 to South Ferry, that the #2 will be a local PERMANENTLY in Manhattan, the #9 will NOT come back, and Flatbush service will be a shuttle during late nights. "
After some responses from others he wrote:
"The 5 would go to Flatbush at all times except during midnights under this proposal, with both the Dyre and Flatbush lines turned into OPTO shuttles during midnights. "
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Comments anyone?
I'll be damned if i have to put up with slow local services in manhattan and if people living this boro get all the service. we should all sign a petition.
Making the 2 a permanent local is ridiculous. If the West side IRT needs more local service, just run more 1's. If the 3 runs to Brooklyn they will have to merge at Chambers. The TA is really destroying the West Side express, if this rumor is true.
(digging out from the G.O.'s)
Bway local service was fine before making #2 a local service. make 2 & 3 express as before and #1 local. with local service at rush hour with 3-4 minute headway also express service with 3-4 minute headway possibly at some point 2 minute headways local or express could ease the crunch..
Bway local service was fine before making #2 a local service.
It most certainly was not. Local service was so poor that every single day, a few scheduled locals bypassed the busiest local stops, leaving hundreds or thousands to stew on the narrow and hot platform at 72nd and creating inhumane crowding on the locals that actually did make local stops.
make 2 & 3 express as before and #1 local. with local service at rush hour with 3-4 minute headway also express service with 3-4 minute headway possibly at some point 2 minute headways local or express could ease the crunch..
But the TA is apparently unwilling to increase local service beyond 12 tph or so during the afternoon rush. More service than that would overserve the upper part of the line (and possibly the lower part, too), which is why many of us have been suggesting short-turning some trains.
While I see no connection to the #9 not coming back and the #2 staying local. From my point of view the #9 dying a permanent death is the best news I've heard all day. I think the 2 should return to express.
The 9 is simply 1/2 of Broadway local service, call them all 1's or call half 1's and the other half 9's; makes no difference.
What a crock!!! There is no way that the 2 line is staying local. There is no way the Flatbush line will be a shuttle. The 2 line will be express when the 1 return to SF and the 3 return to Bklyn as an express. There are two things that Im 85-90% that will happen in the fall when the 1 returns to SF:
1. the 3 will be ten cars.
2. the redbirds wont be on the 2 line when it returns to the express tracks.
Routing decisions are made by Operations Planning in cooperation with Rapid Transit Operations senior staff, and if necessary public hearings are held before the changes are made. Train Operators do not make routing decisions, and neither do Deputy Superintendents.
David
Seriously, thanks for the info and for quashing gossip,
MATT-2AV
Hear, hear!
But if I may offer a suggestion, if they DO bring back #9 service, maybe the centre track of the west side line could be used to provide express #9 service in the peak direction (up to Noon southbound, 1 PM and on Northbound).
OFF THE TOPIC: Can't they do something similar with "D" service in the Bronx, and run the "B" alongside?
wayne
The centre, er, center track is not continuous. What would be the point of switching in and out?
As for the B/D, yes, it COULD be done, but why SHOULD it?
David
What are you talking about on the B/D in the Bronx? If you mean peak direction express, that's already done. Says so right on the service guide.
No such thing, I have heard nothing, and talking to the several A Division T/O's that I know, who drive the 2 line, 4 line, have heard nothing of it, barely about the 9 line elimination its self. Its a dumb rumor going around. Making the express tracks useless, and the T/O's on both the 2 and 1 lines would be furious because their lines are so long.
Yes, I really believe that they are going to make the 2 switch from the express to the local and back, which will cause massive delays, and that Flatbush is going to become a shuttle. Yeah right...
I do hope the 9 is eliminated, its a stupid waste of time, cars, and resources. They should make every other or every third train run from 137th Street to South Ferry only. Call it whatever you want, I don't care if they call it a 1 or a 9 or any other number for that matter, but please get rid of the 1/9 skip stop nonsense!
What's it to you? You reside in D.C.'s outskirts...
Does it really matter where I reside? I use the NYC subway, I don't like the 9 train. Just in case you haven't noticed, I do come to NYC rather often...
Clayton!!!
Behave yourself.
Where a person lives is not important. He has an interest in the NYC subway and has a right to his opinion.
I DO agree on the 1/9 deal. Instead of speeding up by skipping a few stops and saving a few minutes and having some wait 10 minutes for their stops, everyone should just take the train that comes every 5 minutes. Same deal with the J/Z.
It isn't that. We have seen ridership statistics showing that south of 96th Street, the local stations have more ridership than all the stations above 96th Street. Since 137th Street is the most logical turnback point after 96th Street, it makes sense that every other train turn back there so that those stations on the Upper West Side have more service. They could concievebly turn back at 96th Street. The relay would be made revenue, so they wouldn't have to delay the train at 96th Street. Trains would relay on the middle track in the 103rd Street Station and go back, the new crew would board at 96th northbound and the old crew would get off at 96th southbound. But again, it is probably too hard to do.
The most important thing this service change would do is if a delay occurred north of 137th Street, the stations on the south part of the line would not be affected.
1/9 skip-stop service is silly. The obvious solution is to run the #1 at 12-15 TPH from Van Cortland and the #9 at the same headways from 137th St. What's the maximum capacity at South Ferry? Do loop terminals have a finate capacity to begin with?
Well, loop terminals aren't like conventional terminals. How long do 1/9 trains stop at SF anyway? I know some lines in many places around the world where trains arrive at one platform, leave, drive onto a turnback track, and cross over to the outbound platform to upload passengers. The stop at the disembark platform is about...Oh, say 30 secs., just like a regular stop.
I guess they could do that for South Ferry, can't they? Have crews be very quick in the change. For example, Hong Kong's T/O's (who operate OPTO ALL TIMES ON ALL ROUTES) can switch ends/crews at a terminal such as Yau Ma Tei or Central or Chai Wan in less than 2.5 minutes during peak hours (which, coincidentally, is less than the time needed to make a Cup O' Noodles.) Disembark terminals, usually take about 1.5 to 2 minutes to go from disembark platform to loading platform.
Is it technically possible for a quick crew switch at South Ferry in...oh, say, 45 seconds to a minute? For example, a T/O arrives at SF, trades spots with a second T/O, waits in a line of 2, and takes the fourth or fifth train back to 242 St-VCP...Would that be a workable solution?
-J!
There's no crew change at South Ferry. There's also only one track for the West Side line and only one usable platform. The station is on the loop itself. South Ferry is just the stop between Rector southbound and Rector northbound, as anyone in the back half of the train finds out rather quickly.
They used to have service like that ages ago. The 137th St - South Ferry ran only during the rush hours.
In addition during the same period they had Broadway Thru Express service between 242nd St and Dyckman St and then again from 137th St to 96th St.
That type of service will probably still be viable today.
I have to correct myself.
The 137th St - South Ferry service ran during regular AM and PM hours on weekdays not just during rush hours.
It was teh Broadway Thru Express than operated only during rush hours.
IIRC, the 137-SF service was eliminated when the 9 was introduced.
That is correct, although by then I think the short-turns were only during rush hours.
Has Dyckman ever been used for scheduled short-turns?
We've seen the current ridership statistics (well, the 1999 ridership statistics -- close enough). Does anyone happen to have ridership statistics from the mid-80's or from way back when the two express tracks were used? I wonder how they compare.
The 9 is a local south of 137th St., so I feel that there is no need for it unless you make the 1/9 skip stop throughout the whole line. The 2 being local though disappoints me. The run from Atlantic where I transfer there from the Q to Penn Station takes so long. Please return the #2 to express, that is all that I ask.
Dude, why dont you stay on the Q to 34St and walk over a block to Penn Station?
True, but I take different routes to my liking. Now Brooklyn bound, I come from the East Side, so I go to 59th St on the 6, and transfer to the N, R, or W, then transfer over to the Q at 57th, and 7th. These are routes I normally take, and I am used to over the years. If I need to make a dash, staying on the Q is my way to go.
Hey, no problem! I was just a lil curious thats all. I used to do the same thing when I worked in the financial district. Take all types of routes to get home in Bklyn.
Pure crapola. The #2 will be an express in Manhattan when Greewich St. reopens. I can only imagine the public outcry in all neighborhoods serving this line if this was seriously proposed.
Then what in the name of Sam Hill will happen to the #3? Is it going to be an express or something?
Something doesn't make sense...isn't that LONGER train routes, usually cross-borough trains (i.e. 2, 3...Bronx-Manhattan-Brooklyn) are actually EXPRESS? Turning #2 in a local just makes no sense to me, especially when the 1 is there to do the same job, and has been doing that for about how many years now?
I say this is all probably hokey baloney.
-J!
I checked with the schedule-makers today.
EVERYTHING is going back to EXACTLY the way it was as of September 10, 2001, with the exception of the Cortlandt Street station remaining closed until further notice. The #2 and #3 will run express and terminate (on the south end) at Flatbush Avenue and New Lots Avenue, respectively, and the #1 AND #9 will run local and turn at South Ferry with terminal facilities at Chambers Street.
David
I heard in NY Times they're rebuilding the South Ferry station to fit 10cars and making more platforms. Is this already done or better off, is this even true?
Its true but as of now they just took the gap fillers out.
So...in other words, the loop terminal's days are numbered, right?
-J!
How are people going to get on the trains if there are no gap fillers at SF?
Theres no Trains running to SF as of now so thats not a problem. South Ferry is Under construction.
They will be put back before September, right?
No. They're going to have people LEAP over the gap, while secretly videotaping it so we can all chuckle at those who don't make it.
I can see it now, ABC desperate for ratings and ad revenue: "America's Funniest Train Boarding Accidents"...
It's sounds more like FOX special......"When Train Boardings Go Bad".
ROFL. what's amazing is how i can actually picture myself watching that show
They’re going to import the “Mind the Gap” messages from the London Underground.
Having driven the population of London crazy, they’re looking for new victims…
Have you ordered your new, white jacket, with the straps that fasten behind, from the Transit Museum Store?
(Its true but as of now they just took the gap fillers out.)
The goal is to get the line up and running by Sept. 11, or at least by the election, for Pataki's sake. After the disaster, the Dept. of Subways asked for South Ferry Terminal to be rebuilt. It wasn't on the list before. But they can't rebuild South Ferry by the reconstruction deadline. Still, it has moved up the queue, and appears to be a "Phase II" project. Rebuilding Cortlandt Street is "Phase III."
"I heard in NY Times they're rebuilding the South Ferry station to fit 10cars and making more platforms. Is this already done or better off, is this even true?"
This is a proposal. The articles I've seen don't even make it clear whether this i proposed to be a loop or a stub, or if they have even thought that far.
Nothing can possibly change by this fall. It's too big a project. It also makes no sense that the gap filler panels would be removed.
They were probably due for an overhaul soon. Makes more sense to do the work sooner while the station is not being used, then to do it between arriving trains once it is returned to service.
Thank you very much, David for clarifying that. Say hello to John and Mike up there for me.
Exactly, including schedules?
I think I've made my case that 9 tph (the approximate actual, as opposed to scheduled, service before 9/11) at 50th, 66th, 79th, and 86th is grossly insufficient; I'd be surprised if these stations are not in the top ten list of least rush hour service per capita. Are the schedule makers unaware of the problem (in which case I'd appreciate it if you could bring it to their attention) or do they disagree that there's a problem at all (in which case I'd be very curious to see their reasoning)?
At the very least, could a directive go out to the relevant towers that the four busiest stops only served by the 1/9 are not to be bypassed unless there is simply no other alternative (e.g., stalled train on the local at 79th)? Someone posted a few weeks ago that such a directive was issued at least with respect to the SB 2, but it's being ignored already -- on Tuesday, I boarded a SB 2 on the express track at 42nd. (It seems like occasional 2's are sent express for no reason other than they can. I've never heard of that being done anywhere else, and it seems like a very bad idea. Are occasional R's sent over the bridge not because of a problem in the tunnel but because, well, there just happened to be an opening on the bridge track? Of course not.)
And, although it doesn't affect me personally, I'm still curious why skip-stop is being reinstated.
Thank you.
From what I understand, the schedules will be similar, though not identical, to those in effect on September 10, 2001. I have not been told what the differences are.
David
Thanks. Please keep us informed as you get more information. I'd still like to hear answers to the questions in my previous post, if you can find them.
Ok, I can give you an example. Sunday night, there was problems in the Clark St tubes, causing delays in uptown 1 and 2 services. I was the last 2 train out of Bklyn b4 the problems started. We left a few minutes late after our scheduled time (at this time were on 17 minute headways) Then we got caught in congestion at E.180st due to a Dyre shuttle put in front of us. Put those two factors in and we went on the express track from 96St to Times Square. When we got to 96St, there was a 1 on the local track heading to Chambers. Putting us express was the most logical thing to do. So when a 2 is running express, it is usually because of problems further uptown(E.180st)
I cannot comment as to why the 1 go express............
PS: My train was packed and we hit 45mph by the time we got to 50St.
25 years young today.
Whoops! You've slipped into the "moving trains" mentality. It's not the trains that need to get from point A to point B and it's not trains that pay the fares and the taxes to keep the subway running -- it's the people who need to be moved, and that isn't always best accomplished by moving trains as fast as possible.
I see a few reasons why sending your train express was not "the most logical thing to do":
Each station is scheduled to receive a certain number of trains per hour. If a train that's scheduled to go local instead goes express, some stations receive less service than they're supposed to receive. (Or was a 3 sent local to make up for the 2 express? I've only seen one 3 in my life go local for reasons other than GO's and blockages on the express track, so I doubt it.) Then the next local gets bogged down from the crowds it shouldn't have to deal with and falls behind schedule.
You say your train got out of Brooklyn just before problems began. That would imply that the train behind yours was even further behind schedule than you were. Wouldn't the logical solution be to slow your train down a bit so as to decrease the gap behind it rather than speeding it up, increasing the gap even more?
Think about it from the perspective of a passenger waiting at a local station and trying to get to Brooklyn. You say there was a 1 to Chambers at 96th, but that doesn't help anyone who needs to stay on past Chambers. At 17-minute headways, anyone who would have caught your train now has to wait 17 extra minutes -- and anyone who just missed the previous 2 has to wait a full 34 minutes.
Some stations are busier than others. As I've emphasized over and over again, the local stations between 96th and 42nd are extremely busy. If there's no choice but to have a local bypass stations, it should bypass the least busy stations, not five of the ten or so busiest stations on the line. Your 2, if it needed to run express, should have run express in the Bronx, on Lenox, in Brooklyn, or in Manhattan below 34th only.
Not every subway rider is fluent in English. The maps and signs give the clear impression that every 2 is a local. Each train that deviates from its designated route invariably drags along some people who wanted the regular route but didn't hear or didn't understand the announcement. Think about 14th Street: a train that's supposed to be running local stops on the track that's signed for uptown express service. How many people trying to get to Christopher get on? How many people trying to get to Times Square get on?
Compare the situation downtown at 96th to the situation on the A/C/E uptown at Canal. They're pretty much the same: one route stays on the express track, one route stays on the local track, and one route switches from the express track to the local track. When a C and an E pull in together, is the C sent express? Of course not, unless there have been major problems -- and if the C did run express, it would only bypass three stations with relatively low ridership, not five stations that desparately need all the service they're scheduled, if not more.
On a different note -- happy birthday!
yea but at Canal, E's get priority over Cs so Es go first almost always
No, but occasional Rs are sent over the bridge because they are running late. (Granted, not as often as 1 & 2 trains bypassing, but...).
The 2's sent onto the express track at 96th are often not late -- they're just put there in anticipation of an opening at 14th. They sometimes pass other 2's en route.
Well It does effect me, and I would most certainly love to know why they are bringing back skipstop. It is the stupidiest thing they have ever come up with.
They THINK it makes the trains faster ... but I grew up with the "Broadway TRUE Express" and it was a DOG ... looked good on paper though and that's all they SEE on the other side of Manhattan.
Newsflash, MTA HQ AIN'T IN DA BRONX ... they're CLUELESS as to what it's like in CANADA (The TA has always considered the Bronx as part of those secessionist Canadians) ... Vive le Quebecois! :)
Us Bronx swaybacks are supposed to be glad the trains run there at all. Was no joke in my own Stillwell days - they'd just as soon send the D train to Astoria ... THAT they heard of.
That could very well have happened right after the Chrystie St. connection opened, considering the mass confusion that reigned for the first few days after it took effect.
But the point of the subway is to move people, not trains. It doesn't help that the trains are moving faster if most of the people are still standing on the platform waiting for one to open its doors. Look at the short-lived W express experiment -- it failed because the express bypassed some of the busier stations, and more people were left standing around waiting for the local than could take the express.
Skip-stop moves people slower than all-stop.
The be-all and end-all of mantra of Management is "safe, on-time performance." By leaving people standing on the platform, they accomplish both - less injuries on the trains and trains arriving when scheduled. That no one is using these safe, on-time trains is beside the point.
That's certainly not the case at stations with narrow island platforms, like 72nd! Nor can I imagine it's the case at any station after a train dumps a huge load, all aiming for a single street exit.
Makes sense.
A motorman repeating what he heard from a deputy superintendnet? Every real TA person knows two things.
1) The TA runs on rumors & paper.
2) Never believe it unless you hear it from a cleaner.
Dang! Things have changed ... the TA used to run on flashing toilet lights and paper and it wasn't true unless it came out of a MABSTOA garage. What's this world coming to? :)
Greetings from hell with the lid open.
Seriously, with all the wildfires raging in Colorado, it got really bad yesterday. There was so much smoke in the air the sun took on a red appearance. You could look right at it without hurting your eyes. If anybody has any rain to spare, sent it over here. We need every drop we can get.
Anyway, in this latest weird dream installment, a pair of slants was found on the tail end of a 7 train of - Redbirds! What the..... How in the..... Son of a........... Don't ask how they made it through the Steinway tubes. Of course, since anything is possible in a dream, perhaps those tubes were big enough to accommodate 10-foot-wide trains.:-)
My sympathies on the fires, they looked MIGHTY severe on KUSA-9 (another benefit of a bird bath over cable, watch ANYBODY'S TV) and fortunately they don't seem to be all that close to you - seems to be in Pike and Vail so far but I can imagine the smoke's pretty bad out your way and with the thin air and all, you're kinda oxygen starved to begin with. Your dreams indicate you might want to pick up a bottle of Michael Jackson's favorite "air" ...
We won't even bother to fantasize over what interesting shapes those slants took on after regrooving the tunnels. :)
The train in my dream was out on the Flushing elevated portion and the slants hadn't sustained any damage. All I could think was "Not smorgasbord trains AGAIN!!!!!"
There are rumors spreading here in the Midwest that a pair of R28's (I'm pretty sure) are being loaded onto flatcars for shipment to IRM. Has anyone got any idea whether this is happening and, if so, what the car numbers are? Thanks!
Frank Hicks
I'm going to Boston in August, and I was wondering if there is anywhere I can pick up a T system map T-shirt. MBTA used to sell them online, but does so no longer. Are the shirts still sold anywhere in Boston?
Thanks in advnace!
Mark
I've seen them in souvenir stores, but these are somewhat seasonal. I seem to remember seeing them in Chinatown. You might want to try the Prudential Center (E line or walk from Back Bay stop on Amtrak), where everything is overpriced, or you can scout around Chinatown neighbourhood (Chinatown stop on Orange Line) and see if you can spot them at one of the cut price T shirt places. They do occasionally turn up there.
And all of the T's maps are on-line.
Todd, I heard (from a T employee) that the maps are no longer being given out ... part of some cost cutting measure ?
Mr rt__:^)
That's right mr t; in actuality, the previous sponsor of the map (Citizens Bank, I think), didn't renew their sponsorship.
About two years ago I got one from a vendor near Long Wharf where many of the "trolley" tours commence. Didn't realize it until I got home that there was a mispelling of one of the stations....No wonder it was so cheap.
I have one but don't know where it was purchased, it was a gift I recieved back in 1999.
I picked up mine at the Harvard Station of the Red Line a couple years ago, there was a T Shirt Vendor just outaside of the fare payment next to the donut stand
They also sell the T T shirts in the stands at South Station!!! TOny
Massachusetts Turnpike Chairman Matthew Amorello recently gave a talk to the Boston Chamber of Commerce in an unfinished tunnel, part of the Mass Pike (I-90) being constructed as a portion of the "Big Dig." In his speech, Amorello referenced the NYC Subway system's history as giving him the idea for this venue.
Hmmmm.... the West Side IRT tunnel should be reopening this fall...
Massachusetts Turnpike Chairman Matthew Amorello recently gave a talk to the Boston Chamber of Commerce in an unfinished tunnel, part of the Mass Pike (I-90) being constructed as a portion of the "Big Dig." In his speech, Amorello referenced the NYC Subway system's history as giving him the idea for this venue.
If only the NYC subway got the Big Dig's massive amounts of federal pork, we'd be zooming down the Second Avenue line today (sigh).
If only the NYC subway got the Big Dig's massive amounts of federal pork, we'd be zooming down the Second Avenue line today (sigh).
Did I actually write that? Ugh, I am sorry, dunno what I was thinking of at the time. What I meant to write was:
If only the NYC subway got one-tenth of the Big Dig's massive amounts of federal pork, we'd be zooming down the Second Avenue line today (sigh).
Sorry.
Or perhaps:
"If only the NYC subway got the Big Dig's massive amounts of federal pork, we'd be zooming down the Second System today (sigh)"
:-)
-Alex V.
MOst of us here love PCCs, as I do, but what modern light rail vehicles do you like best? Here are my personal favorites:
Toronto's CLRV and ALRV cars: I like the curved front and rear ends, very distinctive and unusual among modern LRVs.
SEPTA's ADTranz Route 100 cars: I love the stainless steel finish, and the huge windows. I also like that they get power from a thrid rail like heavy subway cars.
San Diego's older Siemens cars: For modern LRVs, they still have some quaintness to them.
I'd love to hear what other people's favorites are.
Mark
Got to love the accelration of the SEPTA Route 100 N5s.
The SEPTA PCC are pretty damn fast too. If the Motherman floors it, your pushed back into your seat...........or into the person in back of you.
I've always thought of the SEPTA route 100 N5's as the Cadillacs of light rail. Not only do they perform, the interior is classy, with the pseudoleather seats and high windows, and what's more the scenery along the route is just as good with lots of woods and a finale of a great view from the high bridge on which it crosses the Schuylkill as it approaches Norristown.
SEPTA's PCCs are going to be back next year, or this year if they work hard (I ain't holdin' my breath) on Route 15 on Girard Avenue. But I don't know if they'll still haul the way they did, as they're getting a lot of new insides, including the powertrain, I think.
Mark
The SEPTA City Division LRVs. They have the distinct "feel" of a traditional streetcar.
The SEPTA City Division LRVs. They have the distinct "feel" of a traditional streetcar.
They have trolley poles, too.
Yep, and once in awhile the trolley pole jumps off the overhead line, and all the lights go dim. It's fun so long as you're not in a hurry to get anywhere. I ride the SEPTA City Division Kawasaki's every day, and I have to say they really do have that streetcar feel, and to me West Philly would not be the same without them.
I have to say I really like the older orange and blue stripe paint scheme better than the newer all white scheme. The old scheme is warm and friendly, but the new scheme looks like they just couldn't afford to paint the stripes on the cars.
Mark
I'd have to go along with the group, and say that the the Septa single-end Kawasakis and N-5s are my favaorite LRVs. The N-5s for all the reasons that others have listed before, although I see their third rail as a minus, but do they count as LRVs? I always have thought LRVs took power from Catenary, these seem more like the PATCO, and they make no claims about being Light Rail. I suppose it's some FRA regulation, so I should just drop it, cause there ain't no way I'm gonna get it anyway.
The Kawasakis bring an odd modernism to the PCC form, and manage to kind of blend in with the busses and cars, most of which follow the same design school, despite the LRVs being twenty years old. Yes the Blue and Orange stripe looked better than the current white with the stripe above, but the White overall doesn't look horrible.
Has anyone else noticed that the Double Ended LRVs on septa's Rt101 and 102 ride considerably rougher than the Sub-Surface single-end trolleys? I recently rode from 69th street to Jackson avenue in Media. The seats were hard, and the car seemed like it needed springs. The Sub Surface cars may have hard plastic bus seats, but at least they seem somewhat shaped to the human behind, the Rt 101 trolley seemed just barely more comfortable than the hardest wooden Pew i've ever laid my rear on.
Who knows, maybe I just sit weird.
The only modern LRVs I've ridden on have been San Francisco's Boeing-Vertol units 21 years ago on the 12th and, of course, the Siemens SD-100 vehicles we have here in Denver. So far they haven't had any problems to speak of. They're smooth and quiet, accelerate quickly, and stop on a dime.
Calgary's SD-160s, made by Siemens.
Also, Hong Kong's new LRVs...they're made by some Australian company, but I can't remember their name. I'm sure I'll remember one of these days...
-J!
P.S. San Diego's LRVs are like a direct cousin to Edmonton and Calgary's older LRVs, except the Canadian ones have high platform doors, while San Diego has low platform doors.
I'd have to say the CLRV because I think it's the best LRV adaptation of a streetcar. The ALRV would fall into second place because like most LRVs, it is an articulated car. SEPTA's single ended Kawasaki cars are to boxy and styleless with respect to the exterior, as are most LRVs, and, as far as I'm concerned, the standards set by the PCC streetcar made good style in all subsequent streetcars and LRVs mandatory.
-Robert King
For me the CLRV and the Philly K cars are the leaders by far. As others have pointed out, these cars carry more of the traditional streetcar properties than any others. In my biased view - I slightly perfer the CLRVs - but I do have a soft spot for the K cars.
CLRV
- biggest plus windows open so you can hear the sound of the cars rolling down the tracks and through swiches at full volume. Sound is an important streetcar experince.
-smooth accelleartion and braking and a track brake incorported into the pedal system
-attractive paint scheme
-uses N/A switch technology
K Cars
-faster accelleration (so it seems anyway) than the CLRV and a track brake the takes no prisoners.
-nice buzz upon take off
-air conditioning
-PCC like dash controls that preferable to the CLRV push buttons
-bright, clean looking interiors
I've only been on the Boston LRV's. The Boeing-Vertols make this annoying whining sound (diff from a/c propulsion)and they are old, so I really can't stand them...they need to be retired, but their replacements won't allow it just yet. Kinki-Sharyo's are fine; they get the job done (of course like all Boston T's, they are pack you in like sardines). I really like the interior, smoothness and a/c sound of the type 8s, so if the problems actually get fixed, it would be great to get those trains rolling again. -Nick
With all the new light rail systems around, I admit to having a difficult time choosing the one I like most. The new low-floor Siemans in Portland have great acceleration, but the seats need more padding and the forward view is nil. Yes, nil! Completely blocked by some sort of black screen! The N5 cars on the Philadelphia and Western someonewhat resemble the LVT cars on that route: good acceleration, cushioned seats, and no-step loading. Twenty years ago I had a temporary knee injury and learned that steps are a miserable obstacle.... Steps also delay the loading. Yet HBLR has stepless loading with long pauses at each station!
First off, has anyone experienced any problems with the Red Line page around here? For some strange reason, whenever I load it up, it ends after the Farragut North station description.
Aside from that, just out of curiosity, why in the world are they building a New York Avenue station, when they've had this "Potomac Yard" thing floating around for about seven years now with nothing done on it?
Lastly, this is the only of five lines not to share any trackage with the other four, despite two connections (The connecting track from McPherson Square to Dupont Circle, and the connections to/from the Green line around Fort Totten) 1: Is there any reason they designed it this way, and 2: if they ever did build a line to serve Georgetown, might that line operate on tracks shared with the Red?
This has been my out-of-city question for today
> First off, has anyone experienced any problems with the Red Line
> page around here? For some strange reason, whenever I load it up,
> it ends after the Farragut North station description.
Well. I just brought it up in my browser here at work with no problems. I suggest you have a half-transfered page in your web browser cache.
Wish I knew why, or how to fix it... at least it's just me. My browser must be on the commuter shortcut (wait, that ended three years ago:)
Generally, hold the shift key down while you click reload/refresh.
It worked! Thanks!! :)
Aiyee! (sorry, needed to be said) ... :)
Don't mind my demeanor, the company I work for makes stuff that makes that sorta thing go away.
The reason for the new New York Avenue station is to accommodate the construction of a new building for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF). The building is slated to be between the Union Station and Rhode Island stations. ATF is in a leased office building and the new building is to provide more protection.
If there is going to be a station in Georgetown, it would be on the Orange and Blue Lines between Foggy Bottom and Rosslyn.
Michael
Washington, DC
It can't be on the blue and orange lines unless it is in the middle of the Potmac River, the tunnel never runs through Georgetown.
They considered building a separate line from Rosslyn that would then go eastward across the city and would be served by the Blue line as part of their "untangling the lines". See the articles written for Metro's 25th anniversary on washingtonpost.com.
The New York Avenue station is due to a bunch of new office construction in the area around New York Avenue. This was mostly a burned out old industrial area just a few years ago, but now has seen the construction of several large office buildings in the area, and I believe there will be some new federal government buildings in the area soon as well. Presumably this will mean lots more people commuting to work here, which is really right where Metro needs to be.
Potomac Yards, on the other hand, last time I was down there, was just another big box retail center, like so many others in the area. My guess is the majority of the people who would use a stop there would be leisure travellers, and it is debatable whether they would have any reason to go to Potomac Yards over any of their other options for big box retail (like say, Pentegon City, which has a lot of the same stores and is closer to the city).
As for why the red line doesn't share trackage with the other lines, there are likely lots of conspiracy theories about it (see - lots of affluent areas served by the red line), but my guess is that in the usage projections when the original system was planned, heavier ridership was projected along the red line than the others. You have to remember that Metrorail was planned largely as a system to get federal government workers to and from their jobs in downtown Washington DC from their suburban homes. The ever-expanding sprawl and growth of the region, the addition of many non-government jobs to the area, and the move of many jobs from city to suburbs was never predicted by Metro way back when (and it shows).
As for the connecting tracks between the red line and the other lines, the one between red and orange/blue was needed in Metrorail's early days because the only rail yard in the system was on the red line (and the collection facilities for the money trains as well). The connection between red and green lines was needed due to the way in which the green line was built, since the mid-city part from fort totten into downtown took forever and opened later. Some trains during rush hour did short-cut from the northern part of the green line onto the red line to go downtown so passengers didn't have to transfer I believe.
Also, it is important to remember that neither of these connections are full connections between both tracks on both lines, I believe they are both single track connections only, which makes them impractical for any more than the extremely limited revenue service movements.
If they ever build service to Georgetown, it will likely not share the right of way with the red line, it is more likely another east-west tube will be built, and another crossing of the Potomac such that the orange and blue lines will be split off and operate on seperate tracks altogether. Both of these lines are extremely crowded during rush hour now, and they cannot decrease headways on the shared orange / blue line any further, so the only way they will be able to increase capacity is by increasing train lengths from 6 to 8 cars, but this is only seen as a temporary stop-gap, and the long-term reality is that they need to be split onto separate tracks.
Well, given the planned ulles spur off the Orange line, the blue really does need its own trackage - unless WMATA has plans for eliminating Dunn Loring and Vienna/Fairfax stations. And, given the inital proposals for a line extesnion to Centreville, and the median space available... if that idea ever resurfaces, forget closing them down entirely.
But, if the Blue line gets its own track, would that mean the end of Rosslyn service? Arlington Cemetery? Would the Blue still go to Franconia-Springfield? and if it didn't, it's likely the Yellow would take that up, so who gets Huntington?
A flurry of questions, yes, but I just gotta know!
Well, given the planned Dulles spur off the Orange line, the blue really does need its own trackage - unless WMATA has plans for eliminating Dunn Loring and Vienna/Fairfax stations. And, given the inital proposals for a line extesnion to Centreville, and the median space available... if that idea ever resurfaces, forget closing them down entirely.
But, if the Blue line gets its own track, would that mean the end of Rosslyn service? Arlington Cemetery? Would the Blue still go to Franconia-Springfield? and if it didn't, it's likely the Yellow would take that up, so who gets Huntington?
A flurry of questions, yes, but I just gotta know!
The line to Dulles would be like the A train in NYC. Some trains go to Dulles and some go to Vienna.
If the blue line gets its own track, Rosslyn would be a transfer between the Blue and Orange Lines.
No stations currently served would lose service. You just might not have a one seat ride anymore.
Crafty WMATA, aren't they? I take it Rosslyn Station would still sport the bi-level island platform like Pentagon has, just with the Blue trains arriving from the north instead of from the east as they currently do.
Like the A train? I know they're about evenly split, half to Far Rockaway, half to Lefferts Boulevard. I figured, with no Blue trains getting in the way, both the New Carrollton/Vienna-Fairfax trips and the New Carrollton/Dulles Airport trips would have enough headway clearance to keep the service level exactly as it currently is. Again, though, as I'd stated in a different topic, they'd probably use the WFC center track for westbounds to Dulles, the outer track for westbounds to Vienna (and anywhere else they may extend that line), and the innermost track for anything going to New Carrollton
Still, I think the provisions for running Blue trains on the crosstown subway from Rosslyn to Stadium-Armory will remain intact If WMATA really wanted to be creative, they could have the lines able to change crosstown routing at Rosslyn (eastbound) and Stadium-Armory (westbound). So Orange trains could use the routing through Georgetown, and Blue could... stay where it is now, and vice versa.
As far as not having a one seat ride, WMATA never allows that outside of the necessary. Remember, when the Orange line opened, it was only the portion of the line from New Carrollton to Stadium-Armory that existed. So, to avoid much unwanted overlapping, instead of only running trains between those stations, all the Orange trains went to National Airport (probably the only time they ever did, BTW) until the subway from Rosslyn to Ballston opened. Heck, they might just intertwine the Dulles line with the Blue line to Largo Town Center (which I figure will be open long before the Dulles spur), though I doubt it will be very frequent, if it is ever even done.
The new blue line was merely an idea. I think Rosslyn would remain as is, but that would mean alot of crossing over. The new blue line would not be constructed and opened for at least 20 years. As for all the possible routings, since this line is very far off into the future, if at all, it is not worthwhile to speculate where it may run or the services that might serve it.
Blue/Orange overlapping was not to create one seat rides but to minimize confusion and delays. No need for two separate lines when there is only one branch. The maps still showed that the Orange Line ended at Rosslyn and the Blue Line ended at Stadium-Armory.
The Green Line shortcut only came in to being about 3 or 4 years after the Green Line to Greenbelt opened. That connection was never to be used for revenue service.
The connection was used to increase ridership. Until the Green Line was connected between Fort Totten and U Street, riders had to change at Fort Totten to continue their trip on the red line. Because of complaints that the connection added 10 minutes to the commute, Metro offered the Green Line Short Cut where Green Line trains skipped Fort Totten and went to the red line. The connection is only on one side of the green line tunnel. (It's the side normally used for Fort Totten to Greenbelt Traffic.) Downtown green line trains had to cross over to the opposite track and then again to the connecting track.
Michael
I am aware of what the shortcut did. It was not implemented to increase ridership. It was implemented for the second reason you stated, to eliminate the Fort Totten transfer. Not a single train was added to the green line and actually, headways were decreased to every 9 minutes.
If the shortcut wasn't designed to increase ridership, it was designed to maintain it. Ridership was falling because of complaints of the Fort Totten transfer and Metro instituted the shortcut to shorten the ride.
Also the Green Line only went as far as Farragut North before being turned back to Greenbelt.
Michael
Washington, DC
Furthermore making no sense. Why only Farragut North? Dupont Circle has a crossover to use.
No it doesn't. In order to cross over there, you would block Red Line trains to/from Montgomery County. Farragut North has a pocket north of the station. When you made your list of crossovers, most of those stations do not have a way to turn around trains without blocking thru trains.
This raises questions in my mind.
I'm looking at my copy of "The Story of Metro" by Ronald H. Deiter. There are two things here that seem to be contradictory.
(1) The track map at the back of the book shows a center layup track between Farragut North and Dupont Circle, but only a crossover north of Dupont Circle.
(2) The book's description of that famous "runaway train" incident in 1979 includes the following text: "The train stopped, then started again and ran to Judiciary Square, then to Gallery Place and Metro Center. If nothing else had happened, it would have continued that way to Dupont Circle, then pulled into the pocket track and waited for somebody to change ends." This description has always led me to believe that there was a layup track NORTH of Dupont Circle. Does it instead mean that the train would have stopped at Dupont Circle, reversed direction, and pulled into the layup track? That sounds very strange, especially since Dupont Circle was serving as the terminal at that time.
Mvh Tim
I would presume they didn't put a layup track north of Dupont because there already was one only a short distance south/east of it (it's only about 8 blocks from the 19th/Conn Av end of Dupont Circle to Farragut North). Since there were no trains coming from north of Dupont, crossing-over north of the station or wrong-rail reverse moves involving the layup wouldn't obstruct traffic.
What's the best book about the Metro Subway? Is it 'The Story of Metro' you talk about or is there a better one? Thanks.
Story of Metro, except it is not in print and the updated version goes only up to 1989.
Yep, that's when I bought it (I moved to DC in '89).
Mvh Tim
Your track map is correct. When Farragut was the terminal, trains would arrive on Track 2, relay on track 3, and then reenter service on track 1. When DuPont was the terminal, they did what was done at Anacostia from 1993 until 2001. The trains would arrive on track 2, relay on either track, then crossover to track 1. Track 1 is the Glenmont bound track, track 2 is the Shady Grove bound track, track 3 refers to any pocket.
That seems like a strange way to operate Dupont Circle as a terminal, given that it has outside platforms. How did passengers know which side to wait on (if there was no train at the station when they arrived, or was there always one)?
Mvh Tim
The trains always discharged on track 2. They always picked up on track 1.
OK, gotcha, sorry. I was a bit slow last night.
How'd they do the crossover move: via track 3 south of Dupont Circle, or through the crossover north of Dupont Circle? Inquiring minds want to know....
Mvh Tim
Under normal circumstances, I would assume they used the crossover north of the station in the procedure I described before. After posting, it occurred to me they may have used the pocket on occasion, but I highly doubt it.
Also, I forget that in DC, as in New York, T/Os change ends by walking through the train. (Here we can't, so we have to change ends either at a platform or at a catwalk, the latter often being provided at layup tracks.)
Mvh Tim
They only do that on the pocket tracks. At a station, they use the platform if they are taking the same train out.
Oh, OK, my mistake. I was railfanning in DC in April with someone else who said they normally changed ends in the train. We saw a T/O do this at Branch Avenue, but when I think about it, I think that train was being taken out of service.
Mvh Tim
WHERE DID YOU GET THAT BOOK?! I MUST HAVE ONE!!!
Sorry, but an "official" DC track map would be something very valuable to me, and I also love reading about Metrorail. I find it a tough system to top in cleanliness and class, but the web-like layout of it lacks simplicity (Really, once you get used to it, it's easy to navigate, but I live in Philly, and just pop down to DC twice a year to become more familiar with the system itself.), not to mention the station designs... can we say, "repetition"?
Though, I must hand it to the designers of the Dupont Circle "bowl", and whoever had the bright idea to bury Forest Glen Station so deep underground. The cross-vaults at Mtro Center and L'Enfant Plaza are enjoyable as well.
But, anyway, do you know where I might be able to find "The Story of Metro"?
WMATA... (I never can remember that entire handle!) posted that it's out of print, and I think that's correct. My suggestion would be to (1) check on amazon.com to see if it might be in print, and if not, (2) find a good local used book store where you live and ask them to try to get hold of it for you. I don't know how difficult it would be to get -- I don't know how large the original printings were, and whether they're hoarded or if people have gotten rid of them, and so on. But make sure you get the revised 1989 edition that I have; if the older editions have a track map, which I don't know, then it wouldn't be as extensive. (But be aware that even the 1989 track map is missing major segments of the system, such as the entire Green Line.)
Mvh Tim
(Sorry to follow up to myself.)
I checked on Amazon, and "The Story of Metro" seems indeed to be out of print. Amazon will let you order it, but I still recommend using a local used book dealer where you live because (1) I believe in supporting local businesses, and (2) a used book dealer that you can go and talk to can probably give you a better idea of what your chances are of actually getting the book, etc.
I did some other searches as well, and the 1985 edition seems to be fairly readily available, but not the 1990 edition (turns out it was published in April 1990).
Mvh Tim
Thanks so much for the legwork and information
No problem. Just went to Yahoo! to find some used book dealers in the US, and did some searches with them. Pretty easy.
I'm sure that a good used book dealer could exert a little effort and probably locate the 1990 edition as well if he or she had a customer that really wanted it.
The copies of the 1985 edition that I saw ran ten to twenty dollars, which isn't too bad.
Mvh Tim
If it was printed in 1990, the info probably had to be in during 1989. Not much happened during that time anyway.
True; the Wheaton opening wasn't until September of 1990 (it was the first Metro opening I went to), and as I recall, there wasn't much else going on during that time.
Mvh Tim
The first (and only) Metro opening I went to was Gerogia Ave-Petworth/Columbia Heights in September 1999. I was three days late for the Branch Avenue segment opening day.
I just thought about that... you're right. Though, at the time, I was also thinking about how some Silver Spring turnbacks use the crossover southeast of the station and do their discharge and layup on the Shady Grove track. But that, I believe, is a very rare case.
Really, dual crossovers (one goes one way, then the next goes the opposite, such as between Fort Totten and Takoma, or just outside Silver Spring) and diamond ("X") crossovers are best used for turnback at the final stations only
That in mind, Metro has a great deal of possible turnback points (Federal Center SW, anyone?), but only a few that can be efficiently used
Though I wonder why so few of those are used as well (WFC, Stadium-Armory, and National Airport come to mind)
My guess is that few of the turnbacks get used because the need for that kind of extra service simply isn't there. With most of the outlying stations having big parking lots and attracting considerable patronage that way, and given the capacity constraints of the shared trackage (like the Blue/Orange from Rosslyn to Stadium-Armory), it probably wouldn't be a good use of that capacity to run short-turns.
BTW, thanks for the term "dual crossover." I've been wondering what those are called. I've heard "diamond crossover" and "scissors crossover" for the other type (the "X" type).
Mvh Tim
Are any online track maps available of the DC lines? A picture is worth 1000 words you know. I seem to remember one but can't find it now. Given the 9/11 terrorism and ongoing threats, if they have been removed I understand and agree with the reasoning.
I never knew of one. The only Metro track map I've ever seen is the one in "The Story of Metro."
Mvh Tim
It was removed at the request of WMATA Transit Police.
E-mail me
I never heard they were losing riders because of that. I also highly doubt it was a 10 minute delay to change trains since the Red Line would be running every 3 minutes and the Green Line every 6. The only way that you could be waiting even close to 10 minutes is by walking really slowly downstairs and then just missing the Green Line. Sounds to me like it was one of those "Metro doesn't like the Green Line just because it runs through some not so nice parts of the city". In fact, the Washington Post printed another one of those letters about 6 car trains on the Green Line in which the writer asked a similar question.
The Green Line shortcut was not made to regain lost ridership, it was to make the current riders have a shorter trip and possibly encourage more people to ride from Greenbelt since it would be a direct trip, and ridership did increase after it was instituted.
Riders were complaining about having to stand in the cold on the Fort Totten platform and then try to get on packed-like-sardines red line trains.
I don't remember Metro running any gap trains that began service at Fort Totten during rush hours.
Michael
M4
Washington, DC
They had to wait in the cold for the shortcut trains that were coming less often than they were before. You spent no less time outdoors if you arrived at the platform as the train pulled out. You just spent it in different places.
Who here said Metro ran gap trains from Fort Totten? You are right, they never did, but no one ever suggested that, so it is an extremely invalid argument.
yea !!
better than th LOS ANGELES RED LINE !!!
{ da subway 2 nowhere } >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lol !!!!!!!!
Do you have any knowledge of the english langauge.... WHATSOEVER ....
just thought I'd ask. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
thought you ladies were going to starbucks !!!
ok ,,...i missed a letter ...................OMG !!!
Hmm... I don't know how favored the 1 and 9 are in NYC around here, but those are red also... DC might have one of SubTalk's favorite Red Lines.
It's certainly my favorite Red Line... :)
yep thats true ! wish the red line here did not run all underground
looking foward to riding the ops cab on da' #1 ...!!thankz ........
Interesting question to ponder:
Now that the cleanup is done and the bathtub exists more or less like the way it did back in the late 60's when it was first dug, Would there be any possibility of mabye MTA and PATH using this oportunity to make a track connection between their two systems at the location before the new facilities are built?
I can see a few really Nice benefits if this were to happen:
* The Subway would have another direct track link accross the Hudson, and rolling stock could be Rolled In directly via track instead of having to transfer things via Barge
* Having a dual-system station would be a Boon to commuters, as they would then simply transfer from Subway to PATH by walking accross the platform
Anyone else have any input to this Idea?
You would need several FRA waviers, but an isolated link like that between PATCO and Broad St Subway in Philly would probably work. The problem with such a dormant link that isn't in daily use is that it usually ends up being more hassle to reinstate the link than to transfer via barge.
However, a joint station is a real possibility. No need for a track connexion unless FRA could be persuaded that mixing PATH and MTA cars are OK. It's unlikely however. PATH cars are substantially different, risks and crashworthiness etc are all substantially different. Main reason being PATH tunnels have several different sections with different widths -- making a "sandwich" possible if head-on crash occurs. Not on MTA.
AEM7
...isolated link like that between PATCO and Broad St Subway in Philly...
The connection between PATCO and the Ridge Ave spur of the BSS has been removed.
I've heard that before. Evill Mike and I were debating this one time as we headed through Philly. Then I told him to look out the window.
Of course it could have been removed since I was last there...
AEM7
The big problem is getting down to the PATH level, unless it is returned to its former Hudson Terminal site.
I don't think you'll see an accross the platform transfer due to the PATH terminal requirements. At best it will be a verticle "down the stairs" transfer sort of like W 4th St.
The big problem w/ a Subway delivery connection is that most Transit System like to take delivery of their equipment at one of their yard complexes. I don't know about the NYCT, but many transit systems get their cars on flatcars or by truck, not rolling on their own wheels, possibly because the cars need prep time at the shop to become roll worthy.
I doubt that the NYCT wants to have to run special freight trains of new trainsets through its system.
Lastly, PATH is built w/ IRT specs so it would only ever be able to handle A Division cars.
I've often wondered if there's any way of threading a PATH Tunnel under Park Row to connect into the Lex Local at Brooklyn Bridge.
Another alignment which seems interesting would be Maiden Lane, a new East River Tube, Orange Street, Cadman Plaza West, Myrtle Avenue, Fort Greene Park, Cumberland St, Atlantic Av (track connection to LIRR - take over some branches and there's direct access to downtown). To maximise transfer possibilities, stations could be sited at: Greenwich St, Broadway - Nassau St, Water St, Clark St, Jay St, Flatbush Av, Fulton St - Lafayette Av.
It is certainly an interesting question. I have always been dismayed that PATH and NYCT were destined to be separate systems, often just on either side of a wall from each other.
However, when I think about it, a direct track connection makes much less sense than just an easy transfer.
"The Subway would have another direct track link accross the Hudson,..."
The PATH is FRA compliant, and the subway is not. I'm not sure how a direct track connection affects this, but NYCT is definitely not going to want to become FRA compliant because of the associated cost. If I remember correctly, FRA compliance requires more routine inspections, etc. I am uncertain if there are other reasons for NYCT not being FRA compliant.
Also, someone here once told me that, while PATH basically is to A Division standards, there are some slight differences. Either the old H&M had some curves/clearances that were tighter than the IRT, or visa versa. If really true, this would pose a major obstacle to the one that has to modify their vehicle standards.
There are very few connections between the A and B Divisions within NYCT, and the system operates. S
Judging from some PATH territory like the Tubes themselves among other places I'd guess clearances are tighter on parts of PATH. Still no reason their cars couldn't run on the IRT, thik they're a few inches lower but length and width the same. What I can't understand is why PATH can't be isolated from common carrier FRA status. Its purpose and the equipment have as much in common with the MTA, maybe more, than some aspects of common carrier railroading including Amtrak have with PATH. PATH for all purposes is a transit system whether FRA or not. Anyone for a run-thru from Van Cortlandt Park to Newark? [if they ever wake up: to Newark Airport.]
Better yet: for you guys in the East its about bedtime,so food for pleasant dreams: Make the Second Ave subway an FRA compatible RR; PATH up 2nd Ave all the way to the Bronx...hook in with Metro North to go up Park Ave. Do'nt worry there arecenter tracks for the big cars. Also center tracks on 2nd Ave for LIRR...63 st-WTC or whatever they'd call it now. Oh well, hope nobody wakes up before they have to go to work.
It is certainly an interesting question. I have always been dismayed that PATH and NYCT were destined to be separate systems, often just on either side of a wall from each other.
However, when I think about it, a direct track connection makes much less sense than just an easy transfer.
"The Subway would have another direct track link accross the Hudson,..."
The PATH is FRA compliant, and the subway is not. I'm not sure how a direct track connection affects this, but NYCT is definitely not going to want to become FRA compliant because of the associated cost. If I remember correctly, FRA compliance requires more routine inspections, etc. I am uncertain if there are other reasons for NYCT not being FRA compliant.
Also, someone here once told me that, while PATH basically is to A Division standards, there are some slight differences. Either the old H&M had some curves/clearances that were tighter than the IRT, or visa versa. If really true, this would pose a major obstacle to the one that has to modify their vehicle standards.
There are very few connections between the A and B Divisions within NYCT, and the system operates. Some lines only have one connection to the outside world, such as the Cross-town IRT/Flushing line.
"...and rolling stock could be Rolled In directly via track instead of having to transfer things via Barge"
It seems like the logical thing to do, but I'm not sure what benefit this has to NYCT operations, especially in light of the cost.
"Having a dual-system station would be a Boon to commuters, as they would then simply transfer from Subway to PATH by walking accross the platform"
But this does not require a track connection. Furthermore, there are operational and ownership issues that might make an across the platform transfer more difficult. PATH is operated by the PANYNJ and NYCT by the MTA. You would at least have to have a single fare zone, and at worst, there could by endless debates over who would be financially responsible for what part of the station. If these obstacles can be overcome, I'm all for it, and I am strongly in favor of as simple a transfer as possible. It's more likely that a (convenient???) transfer between separate platforms will be built.
MATT-2AV
Here's a Poll of what Trains you like, here's mine:
1)R-44
2)R-46
3)R-143
4)R-32
5)R-38
6)R-42
7)R-142
8)R-68
Easy :)
(in no particular order)
R-10
R-16
R-38
R-15
BMT Multi's
R-17
R-11
R-27/30
BMT Zephyr
Favorite car of all time:
R-16
In order:
AEM-7
P-42
Metroliner
F-40
PRR GG-1
P-32 'Pepsi Cans'
E-7
E-60
E-44
HHP-8
Favourites of all time
Amfleet Cafe 25025
Heres the order of my favorite types (not including retired fleets though R27/30s were the best!)
1> R68/68a
2> R62
3> R110B
4> R143
5> R142
6> R62
7> WF Redbirds
8>R46
9> R42
10> R40M
11> R32
12> Mainline Redbirds
13> R40 Slant
14> R38
15> R44
R32
R44/46
R62
R142/142A
R40
R42
Here's mine.
1. The D Triplex (what a trip when I rode it two weeks ago.)
2. The R-32's
3. The Slant 40's
4. The R-68's
Do you really have to know why. Anyone who knows anything about me knows why.
To Sea Beach Fred, WHY. Believe it or not we have the same cars, except #2 ould be the Standards, #-Low Volts 4-Gate Cars
I can't wait to meet both of you this fall.....
na na na na na na. Your Brighton used both the Standards and the D's. We just used the D's, so there.
Fred, don't hate the standards so much or you're shooting yourself in the foot. They were the standard fare for the Coney Island Expresses, the only long-standing revenue service to use the Sea Beach Express tracks (and the Brighton Express tracks and via Franklin Av. to Fulton St.).
And Fred, keep in mind the BMT standards debuted on the Sea Beach in 1915. They eventually returned there just before the R-32s arrived.
I don't hate the standards at all. I just think they are in the minor leagues compared to the Triplexes. To me there is none nor will ever be another car like the D's.
Fred, I'm glad you put the Brightliners (R32s) right after the Triplexes. They were a worthy successor, probably the only possible worthy successor to the Triplexes.
People still complained about the lack of seats on the R-32s compared to what they were used to on the Triplexes. Those behemoths could swallow big crowds.
I won't try to rank them all, but the R-32 is my favorite and the R-68(A) my least favorite.
That makes you a neutral on the Sea Beach since both run on that line.
hmmm thats easy its pretty similiar to yours acela
B division
1)R46
2)R44
3)R32
4)R40S
5)R40M/R42
6)R68/A
7)R38
i cant rate the 110B and 143 never rode them :(. I try looking for R143s on the weekends but they dont seem to be running anyone can tell me why?
A division
1) R142A
2) R142
3) R62A with rain fan window
4) R36WF
5) R62/A full width
6) R33 and lower redbirds....
1) BMT Bluebird
2) BMT Standard
3) D-Type Triplex
4) BMT Green Hornet
5) BMT Multis
6) BMT Little Zephyr
7) Q-Types
8) R-32
9) R-10
10) Lo-V's
If you count the old stuff my favorite is definitely the R1-9.
Can't narrow it down to individual models as the 1-9's had very slight differences between them. By the way, that looks like Thurston behind me. And that is a Low-V on the right.
I forgot to add the Amtrak and NJT Trains that I like:
1)Acela Express
2)HHP-8
3)AEM-7
NJT:
1)ALP-46
2)Comet V Cars
heh, you're a young railfan. You don't remember the king of 'em all:
GG-1
Oh and don't forget:
Metroliner
P-5
Big Liz
New Haven EP-2
I don't like those Trains, that's why, I like more modern type trains.
Here's mine.
1. R-1/9s and R-10s - dead heat
2. R-32s
3. slant R-40s
4. R-38s
5. Redbirds
6. R-62/62As
r1 thru r38
some r 40s
the rest if they have RAILFAN WINDOWS
I'm gonna miss those railfan windows, but I'll get used to it after a while.
My top 5 favorite cars and why:
1. R-46's. They rarely have that annoying "hippo" (as someone once described it) sound. It's a very quiet, cool, mellow car.
2. R-33/36 (World's Fair version, the ones with the longer side windows.) I love the windows and the fact that it's the only car that still goes dark when making a switch.
3. R-38's: The long windows reminds me a lot of the R-33/36 version. Plus it's the only refurbished 60 foot car that still has the back-lit ad signs.
4. R-40 slants: I know it only goes 45 mph tops (like every other car currently in the fleet), but it FEELS like it's going much faster.
5. R-143: I love the interior dot matrix ad signs and the route strips; plus it's a smooth ride (usually).
Honorable mention: R-142A's, it's very similar to the R-143's and in my opinion a smoother ride (usually) than the R-142's.
My least favorite cars (starting with the worst):
1. R-68's: More times than not, it has that annoying "hippo" sound.
2. R-44's: It's a bootleg version of the R-46 and sometimes has that annoying "hippo" sound.
3. R-42's: They seem to always break down, for whatever reason.
4. R-26/28/29: I'm gonna miss these cars, they had character; but they are a little cramped, especially when it runs on the Lexington Ave Line.
4. R-10's: This may surprise some but I didn't like those cars because you could hear them coming from a mile away. They also had character, but those green monsters (that's how I remembered them as a kid) sounded like aluminum cans clanging off sheet metal constantly. I thought the forward-facing seats were cool, but that train was always hot during the summer and sounded like a punk-rock concert gone horribly wrong. I miss them, but I don't miss them that much.
I don't think the R-44's are the bootleg version of the R-46 at all, if anything the R-46 is copying off the R-44, because they been here longer. I like the R-44 because, they are nicer, they are bigger, I also like the sounds, the only downside to the R-44 is that the A/C system sucks big time, I think the Conductor doesn't give a damn about us and our needs. I have no problems with the R-46, they are very, very quiet, and the only thing I don't like about the R-46 is they don't have the windows by the Doors anymore, that sucks.
Quick, someone tell me where the R-44's run. How many lines and are they the main car used on that line? You see 44 is my favorite number as my special baseball in my home is deluged with 44's all around. I want to ride that train and see for myself if it is any good.
They run on the (A) and rockaway shuttle only. Its the main car for the rkwy shuttle, but for the (A), r38s show up more often than the r44s. Personally, I like r46s better since they don't have that annoying WHISHING sound and the grey stripes on the r44 looks horrible! the r46s have this good soundin humming sound. Go ride yourself someday.
I love the sounds of the R-44, and the R-44 shows up way more than the R-38's, there are only 10 sets of of R-38's on the A, and some of them are on the C Line.
A and Rockaway Park Shuttle
A and Rockaway Park Shuttle although if you get an R38, by all means take that instead!
The R-44 runs on the A Line only, and the R-44SIRT runs in Staten Island and serves as the Staten Island Rapid Transit.
I thought you said 4 was your favorite number.:-)
Food for thought: the R-44s have full-width cabs and no railfan windows, although there is a small round hole in the cab door you can look through as long as it's not obstructed. Put it this way: there is no comparison between an R-44 and a Triplex. Whenever I go railfanning on my favorite train, I'll wait for a train of R-38s whenever possible.
I use the #4 on Subtalk because it was the number for the Sea Beach when I was a kid in New York, plus my hero Duke Snider wore it for the Brooklyn Dodgers, and it was my favorite number when I was a youngster. As an adult I fell in love with a double four and that is why I am facinated when I read about the R-44's. But I don't have to ride one to know that it can;t compare with a Triplex. That is a no brainer.
Did you ever become a Hank Aaron fan? Hank wore 44.
Not too many Mets have worn it. Leroy Stanton wore it during his brief stint in 1971, then went to California as part of the ill-fated Nolan Ryan-Jim Fregosi trade. David Cone also wore it when he first joined the Mets.
BTW, what did you think of Carl Furillo?
Willie McCovey wore number 44 because he idolized Henry Aaron. I wore 44 because Willie McCovey became my favorite player in the 60's and 70's. As far as Furillo was concerned, a very steady and solid ballplayer, good hitter, decent power, great inthe clutch and an arm that could throw a lamb chop past a wolf.
Furillo also "read" the right field wall at Ebbets Field better than anyone else. It's sad that his career ended the way it did. The Dodgers released him after he suffered a torn calf muscle, but before they could find a coaching spot for him, he turned around and sued baseball to collect the rest of his salary.
You're right - Stretch McCovey did wear 44.
The R44 is not bigger. The cab is smaller so there is more room for seats.
The R-44's DID come before the R-46 so I should rephrase what I said. The R-46 is the much more evolved version of the R-44, in my opinion. I do miss the glass partitions around the doors though.
I couldn't agree more with the glass portions
The R-46 cars may be the evolved version of the R-44 but they came with a whole host of problems.
My top 5 favorite cars and why:
1. R-46's. They rarely have that annoying "hippo" (as someone once described it) sound. It's a very quiet, cool, mellow car.
2. R-33/36 (World's Fair version, the ones with the longer side windows.): I love the windows and the fact that it's the only car that still goes dark when making a switch.
3. R-38's: The long windows reminds me a lot of the R-33/36 version. Plus it's the only refurbished 60 foot car that still has the back-lit ad signs.
4. R-40 slants: I know it only goes 45 mph tops (like every other car currently in the fleet), but it FEELS like it's going much faster.
5. R-143: I love the interior dot matrix ad signs and the route strips; plus it's a smooth ride (usually).
Honorable mention: R-142A's, it's very similar to the R-143's and in my opinion a smoother ride (usually) than the R-142's.
My least favorite cars (starting with the worst):
1. R-68's: More times than not, it has that annoying "hippo" sound.
2. R-44's: It's a bootleg version of the R-46 and sometimes has that annoying "hippo" sound.
3. R-42's: They seem to always break down, for whatever reason.
4. R-26/28/29: I'm gonna miss these cars, they had character; but they are a little cramped, especially when it runs on the Lexington Ave Line.
5. R-10's: This may surprise some but I didn't like those cars because you could hear them coming from a mile away. They also had character, but those green monsters (that's how I remembered them as a kid) sounded like aluminum cans clanging off sheet metal constantly. I thought the forward-facing seats were cool, but that train was always hot during the summer and sounded like a punk-rock concert gone horribly wrong. I miss them, but I don't miss them that much.
Too bad you don't remember the R-10s the way I do. They weren't painfully loud in the good old days, plus they had that nifty racing stripe at the belt rail.
They used to be QUIET??? Wish I could remeber some quiet R-10 trains, but none immediately comes to mind.
The R-10s were never as quiet as mice, but they weren't painfully loud in those days, either. As I've said before, I never had to hold my ears while rocketing along CPW on an A train. Looking back, most of my A rides took place during cold weather months when train windows and storm doors were kept closed. That may have reduced the noise factor somewhat.
Put it this way: compared to the 6000s or 2600s in Chicago's State St. or Dearborn St. subways, the R-10s were much quieter.
The time of year might have something to do with it. I tended to use the C (that's where most of those green R-10's were) during the summer. During the winter, it WAS a little quieter when you were actually on the train, thanks to the closed windows. I felt very bad for those poor people who had to wait at an underground station for the C. I wouldn't be surprised if those passengers lost some of their hearing.
I've never been to Chicago but if those cars are as loud as you say, I want no part of them.
Trust me, the 6000s and 2600s were VERY loud. I found myself holding my ears. Chicago's L trains move quite a bit faster than New York's subway trains, plus the tunnels are tubelike and the sound has no place to go. It's like being in a giant echo chamber.
what happened to the LOW V & HIGH VS museum fleet ??
i would love 2 see tem roll again on the 12345679!!
May the force be with you for bringing that up! I haven't answered that poll because anything that has been about for the last quarter century leaves my favorites, the old IRT especially the high-v's never even known to most people on the board...or am I too paranoid about my age? I will advise you that there never was a High-V Museum fleet on NYCT. AFAIK the only High-V's saved were 3662 at Branford and 3352 at Seashore. The Low V fleet was 5290, 5292, 5466, 5483 I believe, and I'm missing one there. For a while trailer 4902 was in it too. I think 5466 is the one at Branford now; I'll have to leave it up to someone else to give the disposition of the remaining Low-V's.OK, now for my favorites: 1] IRT High-v's, 2- IRT Low-V's, 3- Manhattan el MUDC's, 4- R1-9, 5- a 3 way split between the BU's, D types, and standards on the BMT, 6- the Q's, 7 believe it or not the old New YorkCentral MU's.
I rode the train of Low Vs myself when they rolled them out to celebrate 90 years of subway service on October 27, 1994. They were a lot of fun and I like the mooing cow noise produced by the old traction motors. I'll never forget the experience. At the same time I might have ridden on the very same cars my mother rode on in her youth in the late 1940s and early 1950s when she lived in the Bronx, and she would often take the IRT Jerome-Lexington Ave. (Now #4) train to Manhattan, and of course they generally ran the Low Vs on that line.
#3 West End Jeff
Mani would almost go in OVERLOAD hearing that on the FLUSHING #7 !
& riding da' express trackz would B' da' ultimate DRUG EXPERENCE !
I saw many of the LOW V -HIGH V fleet / cars on the yards of coney !
wwwwhaaaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssssssuuuuuuuuuuuppppppppppp??
LETs ROLL !!! come on !!
Please...go back to Starbucks.
Peace,
ANDEE
Low V's myself, I'm too young for the Hi V's.I rode them in the early mid 60's mostly on the 2 and 4 lines back then.I was a teenager when they made their final apprearance on the old Bronx Park EL.They were old dirty noisy on a day like today you will sweat till you drop with those big fans stirring up the heat.I remember the doors between the cars will be open trying to get some air in them, as a small child I kind of got attached them, they have a charm to them for some reason, The whirring noise and the hissing popping noise they make as they rumble down the track,Once in a while you see them in a movie like the FBI story, I Love Lucy, or the Naked City, they have a "Old New York" feel to them.
Some nice Low-V scenes in the FBI Story...did you notice the on-board ride is a set: only the roll-by-s were real. The lights in the tunnels weren't that bright years ago, and the window latches are on the lower sashes instead of the upper in the scene. BTW if you don't know "Bowling Green" was really Court St-IND. present day museum site.To the best of my memory---I have the Naked City---the train scenes are BMT standards. The Low-V's weren't any hotter than their replacements. The fans blowing hot air from that false ceiling on all R15 thru36 to me were hotter, not to metion gridheat from dynamic braking.But glad you found they were indeed lovable...for their own reasons.
i remember a R 44 HOTTER THAN ANY OVEN ANYWHERE !!!
@ glad to ride R-1-9 after dat !
>>> BTW if you don't know "Bowling Green" was really Court St-IND <<<
They had me fooled. I thought the station was really Bowling Green (except for the phone booth on the platform). Please don't tell me that the scene at the 161st station was shot somewhere else.
Tom
I wouldn't have known if it weren't for a magaine article I read in 62 about the mvie in the making. Other than that and the onboard scene the rest was authentic.
...........ladies first ..........lol..!
Howcome whenever you try to insult someone you call them a woman? Doesn't say much for your opinion of women.
Peace,
ANDEE
....oh man lighten up chill out dude !!..roll with the punch !!...lol!
@ starbucks anyone? the cafe-mocha is one of my favorite(s) ....
most of the time I just order a regular tall !! with half-&-half only
( no sugar please ) >>>>>>>>>>>>lol !!
check out dis site !!! ...............lol !!
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/
he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he .....lol !
by the way i am married to the same woman since 1972 love em !!
thought you female the way you bitch & moan & complain he he he !
where did hey go after Dat' ??...........!!
i hope NOT the scrapyards !!
Those Lo-Vs are part of the Museum Fleet. They are still around; however, they need some mechanical work before their next fantrip, whenever that may be.
I started riding the Woodlawn and the Low-V's in the late 40's with my mom; also the D train with the R1-9 ad the BWAY-7th ave express with High-V's. To a child those old trains conveyed the impression they'd be around forever. Needless to say my bubble burst when they started replacing the High V's on Broadway in 1957, but I had another 7 years to ride the last of them, then the Low-V's until early 64. A total of 20 years passed before the last of the breed, the R1-9 were retired. Like that traction motor growl...great! That was the sound of traction motors on almost all prewar equipment. Electrics never sounded right without it. When I worked the SD40 locomotives or the GE's it brought back memories when you had an engine you could hear that sound on, sometimes the diesels overpowered it, but on GE's you usually could. Thanks for sharing.
All prewar cars had spur-cut bull and pinion gears. Cheap to manufacture, but noisy. Postwar cars beginning with the R-10s have helical-cut gears. More expensive to make, but are much quieter.
It wasn't so much the expense as it was fear of "new technology" ... hell, they're only just starting to put computers in trains now after Billy's cornered the market. Same for "transistorized propulsion" taking it away from cams and relays. Railroading in general is HIGHLY conservative (due to criticalities) and new ideas need to be proven elsewhere before they're accepted in "life critical" applications such as trains. Helical gears were hard to make years ago and had high failure rates because the machining was critical. Bull and pinion had been proven so that's what they went with until spurs proved themselves in combat. Railroading has always been "trailing edge" when it came to technology ...
But I sure did like the sound of them - sounded like "power" ...
Postwar cars still use bull and pinion gears, only their teeth are helical-cut. The Transit Museum had examples of an R-1/9 motor truck and an SMEE truck, and you can see the bull and pinion gears on each.
I know I'm out of a different age but something semed sorely lacking in the sounds of postwar equipment.The old style gearing sounded so tough, agree with Selkirk. But then there were sounds lke steam, jointed rail, etc etc. We live without it.
Ed ... if you EVER make it back east again, there's something you would *LOVE* ... it's pricey but it is SUCH a gas ... there's a steamer called the Mount Washington Cog Railway in Conway, New Hampshire. Words cannot describe what a wonderful ride it is (and last time Nancy and I went there, we derailed TWICE! Word is derailments never happen up there but we managed two of them, one on a switch, one on a trestle) Because of the small wheel size, those kettles really work their tails off and they're coal powered which means you get GOOD and gritty too. :)
Steam is STILL in revenue service!
I rode Mt. Washigton Cog Ry in 1965 and 1973; somewhere in between there was a derailment due to a switch not being lined back and a runaway resulted..from halfway up? I'm not sure. There was one hell of a crash but I don't think any fatalities. Off season IIRC. It was nice, I must say.Remember paying $17.95 per adult ticket in 73, pricey enough then too.
Yep ... they derailed it by the water tower on the way up (don't you just LOVE those 8 piece folding switches and throwovers? What an intricate piece of exotic machinery those are - the whole cog railway's a treat in its absolute uniqueness) and we derailed *ON* "Jacob's ladder" about 50 feet up from banging the locomotive too hard owing to improper application on the way down. For those who don't knwo the Mt Washington Cog Railway - the "car" roams free and is NOT hitched to the loco on the way UP or DOWN. It's pushed up by the loco and on the way down, the loco acts as a "brick wall" to prevent the car from getting past it. Two brakemen operate tread brakes by hand with the objective of staying CLOSE to the locomotive on the way down.
Well, these guys were green and they'd brake too much (the loco would go away down the hill chugging for all it's worth) and so they'd release a bit too much, it'd come careening down too fast and hit the locomotive and after a few too many, it hit too hard as the guys got more and more rattled and derailed. I loved every second of it myself knowing how the railway's built and that we were NOT going over the side ... at the bottom of the hill when Nancy and I went to shoot the sheet with the white-knuckled crew, the consensus was, "we almost got KILLED up there and this crazy basket LOVE it" ...
We exchanged steam and R9 stories for the rest of the evening at a local gin mill. :)
>>> something semed sorely lacking in the sounds of postwar equipment. <<<
You are almost convincing me it would be a mistake to go back to New York and ride the subways again. I know riding the Red Line in Los Angeles is more like riding a horizontal elevator than a subway. It is so quiet you can hear other people speaking in normal tones, and so smooth you hardly feel like you are moving. Even the view out of the railfan window is dull, since the tunnel is basically the same throughout the system with only one place with a diverging line.
I'm afraid the New York subway will seem dull without the open windows and end doors between cars, the noise which made speech impossible, the rocking from side to side, the ceiling fans, and of course the lights flashing off and then back on down the length of the train.
Tom
We'll never have that back again but it sure is nice to have the memories.NYC transit OK now...what places you can get a railfan window...biggest sore spot is everything feels so slow; trains have been slowed since the Willy B crash in was it 96or 97? One fun system to ride is CTA. They still highball there. I don't think there are any railfan windows left unless they haven't redone all th older cars with full width OPTO cabs.The highway median lines don't do much for me but the original L's and either subway are still fun to ride. Pay the place a visit...it's worth it. So is Denver light rail.I'm glad I was around to share i the end of the early era of traction.
Denver's LRVs don't have railfan windows as such, but they do have the next best thing: a drop-sash window on each cab door that's about as long as the window on a slant R-40. The nice thing is the operators don't obstruct the view by hanging jackets or sticking newspapers and have no objection to anyone looking ahead through the cab.
It would be interesting to discuss the Lo-Vs vs. the High V's, but the SubTalk tracking apparently went astray. Please re-post as a new posting so that some of those interested might respond. Thanks.
Bah Humbug -- There is nothing like R-9s on the IND and Red Birds on the IRT.
I remember that anniversary. (1994) Too bad they removed the original compressors, and in their place, installed original R-38 type compressors. It sounded weird to say the least. :^)
4902 has been at the Transit Museum for some time now. And yes, 5466 is at Shoreline.
In numerical order by model number:
THUMBS UP:
1/9s: Hated them in the early seventies when compared to the ultamodern 44s and 46s, especially in hot weather. But nothing compares to those motor sounds, especially on an express run.
26 thru 36s: The last vestige of the 'gritty' IRT. The no-nonsense box design, beige interiors and red inside doors stood in stark contrast to the 62s and 142s. Air conditioning and comfortable high-back bench seats a huge improvement over the painfully straight, low-back benches on the hot 12s through 22s.
32s: Good, reliable workhorse of the B Division. Was aesthetically nicer with the original blue outside doors and aqua benches, but probably the most successfully GOed model. Consistently fast, a trait more evident when returned to the Queens Boulevard express after R46 domination through most of the eighties.
38s: Never cared for them pre-GOH (too noisy), but gets points for being a railfan alternative to the 44-dominated A, probably the most railfan-friendly line in the system.
Slants: Uncomfortable seats, but has found new favor with father of child unable to reach railfan windows on most other models.
42s: In its original design- wide blue stripe, heavy fluting on sides, huge colored letter end sign- the most beautiful equipment ever seen. A lot of this was unfortunately lost in the GOH. Assigned to the Eastern Division, there are few chances to display its considerable speed- just the 14th and Montague tubes and from Livonia to E105. But in previous assignments, it did great on express runs: CPW, Broadway, 6th Avenue, 4th Avenue and Brighton.
46s: Comfortable seats, good speed even on local stretches along Hillside, lower Smith and Crosstown. Preferred color-coded route strip map to frequently incorrect LED signs.
62/As: Love the speed- and added bonus of railfan window on some Livonia-based sets. Hate the seats. A huge breath of fresh air when new, bringing B Division amenities (bright-colored seats, door chime, lit end route sign, consistent A/C) to belaguered A Division.
68As: Only because they seem faster than 68s and don't make so many annoying squealing noises.
THUMBS DOWN:
10s: Loud, hot and uncomfortable- and ugly. Less so on Jamaica Bay. True, its speed on vaunted A express runs will never be matched.
16s: All the bad qualities of the 10s without the speed.
12 thru 22s: See 26s thru 36s.
27/30s: Nothing really offensive, just hot and slow. Mostly relegated to local lines, not terribly fast as express. Somewhat enlivened by pink seats.
Mod 40s: Inferior prequel to 42s with uncomfortable seats and high railfan window. GOH incorporated extremely ugly 'broken' interior route signs.
44s: A huge novelty when new, thanks to wood paneling, colored seats and door chime. Have not aged well- now painfully slow along what should be fast, exciting express runs. Doors open and close extremely slowly, making one think there's a mechanical problem that will put train out of service. Rather annoying flatulent sound when air brakes are released.
68s: Nothing everyone else hasn't been saying for years. At least it USED to sometimes have a railfan window at one end or the other till about 1991. Somewhat redeemed by extra side window at car ends.
142/As: Initial novelties of automated announcements, LED signs displaying next stop and route map tracking stops have worn out their welcome. Annoying repetition (Is the "Stand clear of the closing doors" guy sitting on a tack?), and failure to adapt to changes in transfers and additional local stops on 2 requires (sporadic) intervention by live conductor, hence defeating the purpose. LED signs and route map wildly inconsistent; can be incorrect or inoperative at any time. Map often completely lit up in midst of run. Redeemed by return of bench seating and somewhat distorted railfan window that looks much better in daylight than tunnel.
My choices are totally without merrit, purely subjective:
R62A
R62
R40 Slant
R68
R68A
R42
R38
Looking at pictures older long-since retired stock, I like the Steinway Low-V's (NOT the Worlds Fair Low-V's), the BMT Standards, and the R1 thru R9, except the one R7A that looked like an R10. I don't like the look of the R10.
:-) Andrew
Ah yes, poor old 1575. Butt of jokes. Stuck out like a sore thumb in an R-1/9 consist.
Today was a beautiful day and being a day off from work I decided to go up to Branford to operate. It was so nice out I decided to ride up by motorcycle. Since there were a few small things wrong with the Harley that will be taken care of next week at the dealer, I took old reliable, my 20 year old rusty Yamaha. What a beautiful ride on such a nice day from Long Island. A little traffic but a great ride regardless.
Then my second treat. Operating convertible BRT car 4573. Even the front operator's window was open so it was almost like the Yamaha ride with the wind in my face. Congradulate me! It was my first day soloing without a pilot!!! My operating was good, nobody got thrown from their seat, I didn't hit anything, and made smooth stops. As far as the tour guide speaking went I had "Headlights" Casey as a tough critic shaking his head "no" whenever my tour would go sour.
Coming back I decided to avoid the I-95 traffic and took the Merrit-Hutch combo to the Whitestone Bridge, a great ride on a bike. All in all, a great day!
It's funny, when we were in class someone said that "Headlights" only came out on Sundays, but I've had him every time I've operated (always on Saturday) and you had him today. Guess we must have been very bad students to deserve such an honor :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He was shaking his head "no" during two consecutive tours the whole time so I thought I was doing bad yet when I finished he came over to talk and was very friendly but didn't mention anything about my tours.
He has a tick, and is always shaking his head.
Hey Sarge,
If he told you "What a good job your doing", then you past his exam.
:-) Sparky
I got an +A & a old copy of "Headlights".
Guys,
Were now being bestowed the priviledge of "Headlights" presence on
Saturday & Sunday. On Saturday, he arrives for the 1430 car with
charters aboard 4573, I'm the conductor and it's SRO. What a trip
that was, Subway Dave as motorman, NYRR Enthusiasts, Yale Medical
Graduates, regular riders & Headlights. Need I say more.
:-) Sparky
"Since there were a few small things wrong with the Harley"
Ride a Harley-
Ride the best!
Ride a mile-
Walk the rest!
T'was truly amazing to see how many of them were on the side of the Taconic yesterday after Americade.
Since there were a few small things wrong with the Harley that will be taken care of next week at the dealer
Gotta take it out and ride it more, Jeff. They hate sitting in garages.
I did a burnout on mine today. ME880s sure get tacky after being warmed up...
My friend's driveway is quite long, and it's got plenty of tire marks oni it >:)
Ever see a 70's lincoln heat the tires so much the smoke pouring out is yellow?
["Gotta take it out and ride it more, Jeff. They hate sitting in garages."]
The bike or 4573? :)
The bike. Actually, both I'd imagine.
No bring a bike to 4573, so we can admire both. 22nd or 23rd, if your
off Sarge. Big Lou & I are there for both. Mr. rt on Saturday.
Headlights too. >G<
:-) Sparky
No, I wish I could make it but I'm working both days, but in a couple of weeks I start my permanant vacation, when I start using up all my days before retirement.
Today was a beautiful day and being a day off from work I decided to go up to Branford to operate. It was so nice out I decided to ride up by motorcycle. Since there were a few small things wrong with the Harley that will be taken care of next week at the dealer, I took old reliable, my 20 year old rusty Yamaha. What a beautiful ride on such a nice day from Long Island. A little traffic but a great ride regardless.
Then my second treat. Operating convertible BRT car 4573. Even the front operator's window was open so it was almost like the Yamaha ride with the wind in my face. Congradulate me! It was my first day soloing without a pilot!!! My operating was good, nobody got thrown from their seat, I didn't hit anything, and made smooth stops. As far as the tour guide speaking went I had "Headlights" Casey as a tough critic shaking his head "no" whenever my tour would go sour.
Coming back I decided to avoid the I-95 traffic and took the Merrit-Hutch combo to the Whitestone Bridge, a great ride on a bike. All in all, a great day!
Since I know you guys love this stuff --
Other than the Franklin Ave Shuttle, the ONLY train running in the South District in Brooklyn this weekend will be the Q!
From 0001 Sat June 15 to 0500 Monday June 17, the following service plan is in effect-
W service is suspended and replaced by Q service.
N service is suspended and replaced by Q service AND Ditmars - Queensboro Plaza Shuttle.
Franklin Shuttle will be double-ended.
Q service will operate in two sections:
Q Shuttle Trains will operate from Stillwell to Prospect Park.
Q service will operate from Stillwell to Times Square.
Northbound service will originate at Stillwell Ave Tracks 7 & 8 and operate Local via the Sea Beach line to south of 59 St/4 Ave. Continue Express to north of DeKalb Ave then normal to Times Sq, terminating on 4 Track.
Southbound service will originate on 3 Track at Times Sq and operate normal to north of DeKalb, then Express to 36 St/$ Ave then local via the west End to Stillwell Ave.
Midnight Q service will operate Local along 4 Ave in Brooklyn and through the Montague Tubes in both directions.
R service will operate via the 63 St Tube.
Thanks for your explanation of the weekend GO's in the south. The MTA posters never make it clear which direction the Q is running on the West End line. A simplified map of service indicating transfer points and direction of service would be less confusing.
I gave up on the West End and take the F most weekends.
Other than the Franklin Ave Shuttle, the ONLY train running in the South District in Brooklyn this weekend will be the Q!
The F and R don't count?
Franklin Shuttle will be double-ended.
What does this mean?
I wonder why the Q isn't running through to 60th/Lex, as the N normally does when it's split in two. At the very least, at night, it might as well go through to 57th, since the R doesn't run then. (The Q is running local and via tunnel overnight.)
If you like strange GO's, check out what's happening with the C and D for the next two weekends! This is only a minor modification of a common D GO, but it sure looks odd. When was the last time a railfan window had scheduled service through the 53rd Street connection between 8th and 6th? (Answer: IINM, July 21, 2001, when an R-40 train was in service on the B. I was on its last southbound run; I assume it didn't return northbound or else there would be ten R-40's in Concourse Yard.)
Umm... If I drive to NYC from Philly and park somewhere near Sheepshead Bay on Saturday, I assume I'll still be able to get to Manhattan and Coney Island on the subway?
Also: I read here earlier that the R143's are not operating on weekends. Blarst! Can anybody confirm that? I was hoping to check out the R143's on the (L), but that idea may have to wait.
If I can't ride an R143, where would be my best bet for catching a slant R40? I've never ridden one of them, either.
-- David
Chicago, IL
There will be a Q shuttle train running between Prospect Park and Coney Island, stopping at Sheepshead Bay.
There's no direct service to Manhattan from Sheepshead Bay. Your best bet is to take the Q shuttle to Coney Island and transfer there to either the F (running normally) or to the other Q, which is stopping at the W platform and is running on the N one way and the W the other way in Brooklyn but otherwise acts like the Q. If you go to the Manhattan-bound platform at Sheepshead Bay, you'll only make it as far as Prospect Park before being kicked off; there, you can transfer to the shuttle bus to Atlantic-Pacific and to the Q, R, 1, 2, or 4 there, or you can transfer to the Franklin Avenue shuttle to connect to the 1/2/4 one stop down or to the C three stops down. (Going through Coney Island will be faster and simpler.)
The R-40's are most often seen on the Q express and on the N. But the Q express never runs on weekends, and the N is suspended this weekend outside of Queens. If past weeks are any indication, R-40's will be running on the Q via West End/Sea Beach, and, with the N suspended, I wouldn't be surprised if some R-32's show up too. I make no guarantees; I think there are enough R-68's and R-68A's at Coney Island to cover this weekend's service on the Q shuttle and Q mainline, and it's possible the R-32's and R-40's will all be sleeping in the yard.
The West End line south of Bay Parkway rarely has railfan windows, and the Sea Beach line doesn't normally have any service at all south of 86th Street, so take advantage of the temporary reroutes.
As for the R-143's, what's the rush? Soon you won't see anything but R-143's on the L. Incidentally, the L is the other place you might run into an R-40, but there aren't many there.
(Personally, I think the R-40 is vastly overrated, but these days I'm happy with anything with a railfan window.)
Your best bet is to take the Q shuttle to Coney Island and transfer there to... the other Q, which is stopping at the W platform and is running on the N one way and the W the other way in Brooklyn but otherwise acts like the Q...
God, if I ever had explain stuff like that to tourists in Chicago... :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Doesn't CTA sometimes detour Red Line trains "over the top" and run them through the Loop?
True, they do that sometimes, but it's far from a regular event. There have also been some creative re-routes when the Brown Line and Orange Line are "combined" into a single line, with trains through-routing from Kimball to Midway and vice-versa.
But the CTA's re-routes are nothing like:
"Take the Red Line to Howard and transfer to the other Red Line, which is stopping at the Purple Line platform and is running on the Yellow Line one way and the Blue Line the other way in Evanston but otherwise acts like the Red Line... Connections can be made to the Brown Line at Fullerton, except during prime-numbered days of the month, in which case a connection should be made at Belmont. All Blue Line trains will run express between Logan Square and Division during rush hours, except during Tuesdays in which the Blue Line will skip-stop random stations but otherwise run local. All other times, the Green Line will operate as a Blue Line, except when it's operating as an Orange Line which is currently replacing the Red Line on State Street. The Orange Line will be split into two sections, one serving Midway but not the Loop, while the other will serve the Loop but not Midway. No diversions are planned for the Yellow Line, but shuttle busses will replace a portion of the 147 express bus..."
Taxi!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Better yet:
PUNT!!!
I like this even better:
???????
Reminds me of the classroom sketch in Monty Python's Meaning of Life.
"In which case, you would hang your coat on the low peg..."LOL
>>>There have also been some creative re-routes when the Brown Line and Orange Line are "combined" into a single line, with trains through-routing from Kimball to Midway and vice-versa.
Could that be done permanently? Has there ever been talk about actually combining the Orange and Brown Lines into one line? Would it be feasible or worth it to do so?
The biggest stumbling block right now would be that the Orange Line uses 8-car trains, while the Brown Line is restricted to 6-car trains due to platform lengths on the Ravenswood branch.
However, there are currently plans underway to lengthen Brown Line platforms to 8-cars. Once this happens, there'd probably be no real practical reason why the Orange and Brown Lines couldn't be consolidated into a single line. In fact, there's been some speculation among railfans that this may indeed happen.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Now, what color would the combined line be and which direction would it follow on the loop?
Burnt Sienna, and it would alternate between clockwise and counter-clockwise.
I have no idea.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Keep in mind that most of your lines and stations are closed for at least a few hours each night. Ours aren't: all but 3.5 stations are open at all times. Not every inch of revenue trackage is always in use but most of the trackage that's in use during the day is also in use at night. Track and station maintenance have to take place somehow.
The Atlantic Avenue station is being rehabbed. New walls are going up on the Q platform, and new platform edges will need to be installed if they haven't been already. I'm sure there's also some degree of track work that goes along with the project. Trains can't run through the station while this sort of work takes place, and without a reroute, a train comes along every 20 minutes at minimum, even in the middle of the night.
I don't know how this is done in Chicago on the lines that run full-time. The Chicago system largely doesn't have the flexibility to reroute trains all over the place as in NYC; I'm guessing trains are replaced by shuttle buses. That's done here, too, but generally only when there's no better option. Some lines are busy enough that shuttle buses show up every minute or two and they still get jam packed -- and then they get stuck in traffic.
What I posted you was my own digest of the posted reroutes, aimed at someone who was trying to get from Sheepshead Bay to Manhattan, outlining the various options. You can see the posted reroutes themselves here.
"I don't know how this is done in Chicago on the lines that run full-time."
Last time I was in Chicago and took the train in from O'Hare mid-day Saturday, we cooled our heels for 20 minutes (no exaggeration) between stations at one point. Finally I heard a train going the other way, and then we were able to proceed in a minute or two. They must have been single tracking for the entire weekend.
The rather obvious question is if the plan is to run a shuttle from Fulton / Franklin to Prospect Park and another shuttle from Prospect Park to Coney Island, why not just run one shuttle from Fulton / Franklin to Coney Island?
The Franklin shuttle stations can only fit 2 cars. 2 cars is not enough to shuttle passengers between Prospect and Coney
>The F and R don't count?
No they don't they are Queens
>"Franklin Shuttle will be double-ended."
>What does this mean?
A T/O on each end, more frequent service.
There is a real fear about trains going thru GO areas. So many towers are now unmanned and signals on automatic that it is easier than ever to do something stupid.
No they don't they are Queens
Must me a terminology thing, since they certainly run in the same part of Brooklyn as the Q, N, and W.
A T/O on each end, more frequent service.
Good. I also see that the C isn't scheduled to run express in Brooklyn as it was the first weekend this month.
There is a real fear about trains going thru GO areas. So many towers are now unmanned and signals on automatic that it is easier than ever to do something stupid.
Aren't GO areas usually physically blocked off?
South - B, D, Franklin Shuttle, Grand St Shuttle, N, Q & W
North - A, C, J/Z, L, M & Rock.Park Shuttle
Queens - E, F, G, R & V
In other words:
South = Coney Island
North = Pitkin + 207th + ENY
Queens = Jamaica
(I'm ignoring the small yardlets. The Grand Street shuttle is the only exception.)
South = Coney Island AND Concourse.
While we're at it:
Broadway - 1, 2, 3 & 7
East - 4, 5, 6 & 42 St Shuttle
That is intersting. Don't the 42 St Shuttle cars come from the 3? Or is that changed now with the post 9-11 re-routes?
Yes they do. Yards have nothing to do with it; it just appears that they do.
>"Franklin Shuttle will be double-ended."
>What does this mean?
A T/O on each end, more frequent service.
I'll bet somewhere in a corner at Jay St, someone is wondering why they hadn't made the platforms long enough for a four car set.
Nah. :)
No one in Jay Street wonders about anything.
See this is why I don't like to ride subways on the weekends. Unless I want to spend 2 hours just getting from the station to Manhattan. It's getting so bad a LI Bus weekend schedule is easier to digest than all these G.O.s!
I think I understand.
Q NB: Via Sea Beach to 59, express stops to Dekalb (ala N train), over the bridge (?) and up to Times Square, Broadway express (?).
Q SB: Reverse of the above, but to 36th Street, and then via West End.
Correct?
Brooklyn 4th Avenue being the only way that can get me to Manhattan, I think I'll just stay home this weekend.
Correct, except that it sounds like the Q is bypassing DeKalb in both directions.
The R is also running on 4th Avenue as its usual local self. At night, when the R doesn't run, the Q will go local all the way.
The signs at Canal st said the Q will stop on the N/R track all weekend, so that means tunnel, not bridge.
Sign's wrong. Only midnight Q service (times when the R is NOT running) will operate via Tunnel.
no. only northbound Qs skipped DeKalb. southbound stops there. i go to Dekalb everyday
We're discussing the service plan for the upcoming weekend. Why are you speaking in the past tense? From what Alex posted, it appears as though Q's will be bypassing DeKalb in both directions. We'll see what actually happens.
The service plan has varied in the past. I've ridden the Q on similar GO's two weekends. One weekend all trains stopped at DeKalb and made all local stops on 4th Avenue in both directions. The other weekend all trains bypassed DeKalb and ran express on 4th Avenue in both directions.
Think that's fun? There's no D service between 145th and 34th Sts for the next two weekends.
Uptown C Trains will pick up the slack on 6th Av and run there from W4 to 59 Sts.
-Stef
Only uptown? What about downtown service? Ugh, the subways are gonna be a mess this weekend. Maybe I better take the express bus in.
This is a minor modification of the common GO that sends the D southbound via the A/C, terminating at 2nd Avenue.
My guess is that the change was made for no reason other than to keep people with outdated maps from trying to get to Brooklyn on the D. It also saves money for the TA -- neither the CPW express nor the 8th Avenue local are generally overcrowded on weekends, so they can afford to lose the D and C, respectively.
The C and F run uptown on 6th Avenue. There is also normal downtown F service.
The A and E are normal on 8th Avenue.
Connections between the two lines is available at W4 St.
It should be interesting to note that the Cs and Es will be opposite each other on 7th Avenue.
-Stef
Ummm... how about Culver?
The F line belongs to the Queens District, not the South.
Even the Brooklyn section of the F?
Go here and read. The operating Districts have NOTHING to do with whether trackage belonged to the BMT or IND at any point in their existance.
Great!!!! Not only I have to deal fighting Mets/Yankees fans this weekend, now N passengers as well, this is the third straight weekend with N service terminating at QBP. (Cough, cough)
We all know that at least one Redbird has been moved into work service. It has yellow stripes on the side. I took a picture of a Redbird in work service on May 26 on the Redbird fantrip in 207th Street Yard. Does anyone know the unit number? It would be greatly apperciated if anyone does. E-mail me or respond here. Thanks!
Actually, there are supposed to be 8 Cars assigned to work service.
They are 8958-59, 9018-19, 9130-9225, 9214-15.
Those units are assigned to the Signal Dollys. The Signal Dolly is a motorless work car used at various points in the system.
-Stef
This morning I'm pretty sure that there were at least three private railcars sitting in Sunnyside yard. Since I was on a Hunter's Point train and hence, on the north side of the yard, I couldn't make out the names on them. One was a blue heavyweight that's been in the yard for several weeks. It's marked "Sherrifs Car" or something like that. The second was a 40s era stainless painted in bright red. The last one and by far the most interesting was a heavyweight observation car, clearly painted in a private livery. It was added to the rear of an AMTRAK train that was ready to leave the yard. I'm curious if anyone else saw them........
They're being used for the 100th anniversary run of the 20th Century Limited. Article in today's New York Times.
I wonder what the line items are for that $5,000-$10,000 charge Metro North was quoting to pull the cars to Croton.
Couldn't they have pulled the cars on the rear of a scheduled run?
"Couldn't they have pulled the cars on the rear of a scheduled run?"
Yup, they surely did! That's thier price for doing so. Probly was lots cheaper than what AMTK would have charged.
Elias
What 20th Century Limited? That train was discontinued years ago.
"What 20th Century Limited? That train was discontinued years ago. "
Yeah, AMTK replaced it with that lame "Lake Sore Express"
The 20th Century and the Broadway used to compete with each other. They left NYP (or GCT) in the early afternoon, and arrived CHI in time for the business day.
Thats when trains were trains and planes were as useful as the space shuttle.
All Aboard!
Elias
For those of you who do not know, I have a website, www.orenstransitpage.com. I currently have pictures of the following car classes: R26, R28, R29, R32, R33, R36, R38, R40, R42, R44, R46, R62, R68, R110B, R142, and R143. This means that the only car class I am missing is the R110A. If anyone has any R110A pictures they are willing to allow me to use on my site (with credit, of course), please e-mail me at oren@orenstransitpage.com.
Thanks, in advance.
I don't care what anybody says, there's only one real El left in New York and that's the Broadway/Fulton Street line in Brooklyn. When you see those old latticed columns and local stringers from 1888, it can't help but give you a rush. This El, from Marcy Avenue to Crescent Street, has character. It's not bland and monolithic like those imposters from the Dual Contract era. A true El does not play a supporting role to a subway for it is a star in its own right and right now the Brooklyn Broadway El is the only true star of New York. Remember, when she first entered the stage in 1888, her Manhattan cousins were barely ten years old and her Brooklyn neighbors were still in their infancy. She is, and I hope will long remain, the old belle of the ball. As such, give me that good "old" El feeling anytime.
Eric Dale Smith
I've never been under the Broadway portion of the el (only rode on top). Wasn't that el from Marcy to Eastern Parkway rebuilt in the 1910's to Dual Contact stanadards? Can you see "lattice" type supports there on that section? I thought the only "old" el was the section from Alabama to Crescent, but again, I've never driven under the Broadway portion of the el.
Yes, that part was rebuilt under the Dual Contracts (like the Manhattan el rehab, under traffic). I don't know how much of the original steel remains.
I think that perhaps some of the old steel does remain from the old "El" structure.
#3 West End Jeff
If my memory serves me right the original latticework uprights remained as far as Myrtle/Broadway perhaps somewhat beyond then towards Eastern Parkway they are H-columns. Can't give an exact spot where itchanges but I can swear they are lattice work to Myrtle...hope I'm right. The rest of the structure along there is plate girder. I wish they had built to the style used on Jerome, Pelham, West End and Whie Plains...the Eastern BMT's dual contract stations were rather blandeven before remodelling in the 60's...compared to others...but thankfully it's an el.
Another thing I want to point out concerning the IRT Jerome Ave. "El". The Mosholu Parkway station is perhaps the only "El" station where they used some tilework for the sign stating the station's name.
#3 West End Jeff
They also use tile work for the stations name at Bedford Park Blvd. In the fare control area.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm probably correct that the Mosholu Pary station is the only "El" station with tilework in the platform area.
#3 West End Jeff
>>>...the platform area. <<<
You did not specify this in your original post.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't think too much of the 1888 Broadway el remains. It originally was a two track el with island platforms (like is between Alabama and Crescent). It was made into a three track el, but the trackways are not even in their original alignment, as they needed to make the structure three tracks. There are some photos of the rebuilding of the Broadway el at Myrtle Ave in "Old Brooklyn in Early Pictures". The whole project was done without interrupting service! Not a small task considering that they had to move the whole alignment of the trackways, and rebuild all of the stations also.
I persisted in that thought too until I took 1906 and 1913 photos of the Broadway El to Broadway and found that the exact columns in those pictures were still in place!
E_DOG
As was discussed in great detail on this board many eons ago, the columns, stringers and girders on the Broadway El are NOT circa 1888. They were totally replaced and/or rebuilt with the advent of Dual Contracts upgrading for heavy-duty standards to allow, in most part, the "AB's" to operate. This included a wider structure, with NEW columns placed curbside, NEW stringers, replacing the street-mounted columns and replacing the old stringers.
In addition, as this El operates now, and was rebuilt for some 85 years ago, the purpose was to serve as an extension of a subway. In fact, this could also have been said as far back as 1913, when the BRT subway was extended to the Municipal Building from the terminal at Delancy/Essex.
As far as bland and monolithic are concerned with the Dual Contracts Els, the IRT Flushing Line's massive concrete gem along Queensboro Boulevard and sections of the Jerome IRT El and the BRT West End El were designed to passover wide avenues with a pleasing appearance, the inlaid mosaics and colored tiles against a brushed concrete background are much more pleasant to the eye than columns with posters affixed to them.
Yeah but the Broadway/Jamaica el (along with M line) are the only elevateds in B division that do not allow for 75' cars. The L line elevated section is also like that and does not allow for 75' cars.
This is because of tight turns and clearances that el's were planned with in those old times, they were never rehabbed for larger cars.
So???? What does that have to do with the topic? If anything a 75' car detracts from the old el feeling!!! Now a 68' car like the Standard is a different story!!!
uhhhhhh 67' :)
Give or take a foot or two.
What does that have to do with the subject of the previous post? The point of the topic is the age of the El, not the El's ability to handle certain types of MU cars.
How did they pull that off without disrupting service?
Also, are the new stringers in a different location than the old, or did they replace them in place?
How did they move the tracks out without replacing service? Temporary track in the middle?
As was discussed in great detail on this board many eons ago, the columns, stringers and girders on the Broadway El are NOT circa 1888. They were totally replaced and/or rebuilt with the advent of Dual Contracts upgrading for heavy-duty standards to allow, in most part, the "AB's" to operate. This included a wider structure, with NEW columns placed curbside, NEW stringers, replacing the street-mounted columns and replacing the old stringers.
In addition, as this El operates now, and was rebuilt for some 85 years ago, the purpose was to serve as an extension of a subway. In fact, this could also have been said as far back as 1913, when the BRT subway was extended to the Municipal Building from the terminal at Delancy/Essex.
As far as bland and monolithic are concerned with the Dual Contracts Els, the IRT Flushing Line's massive concrete gem along Queensboro Boulevard and sections of the Jerome IRT El and the BRT West End El were designed to passover wide avenues with a pleasing appearance, the inlaid mosaics and colored tiles against a brushed concrete background are much more pleasant to the eye than columns with posters affixed to them.
On the section from Crescent to Alabama, I believed they replaced all the old lattice columns many years ago (10?) to stronger, solid girders/pillars. I remember seeing the huge timbers used to hold up the structure while they did the replacement.
Yeah the the J,M,Z line from the Willy B to 121 and lets not leave out the M elevated as well.
The tight curves and buildings really close to the "el" give it a real rustic feeling. Also the switches where the M line diverges are also at quite tight angles. That is definaly my fav elevated line too, it is long and features all the things els are famous for.
Like looking into people's apartment windows.
Like looking into people's apartment windows.
lol...and I also always enjoyed looking into all the abandoned buildings along Broadway. In addition, on the M line, I believe it is the only el that actually defies the normal "el over the street" and instead after Seneca runs over it's own ROW. So instead of looking in building's front windows, you are running through the back of buildings, and people's backyards, (and looking in their back windows)
The Chicago 'L' generally runs over alleys rather than streets, except downtown.
The Brighton line also runs most of the way between E. 15th Street and E. 16th Street, although much of that is below grade.
Plenty of the Brighton Line is above grade. Back before they put the tall corrugated steel walls on the platforms, you could look into back yards and rear windows of the homes along East 16th St. (built on what had been the right-of-way of Manhattan Beach branch of the LIRR) while waiting for your train into Manhattan. (When I was growing up in Brooklyn, my home station was Neck Rd.)
-- Ed Sachs
You can still do that along the short elevated stretch between Neptune Ave & Brighton Beach Ave.
--Mark
The best "old" el feeling I ever experienced was riding the eastern remnant of the Fulton Street el before its demise in the 1950s.
Between Hinsdale Street and City Line (Grant Avenue), the line was a nineteenth-century time warp - steelwork was vintage, with thin upright supports and horizontal lattice girders. The stations were wonderful, with wooden platforms that got narrow (and I do mean NARROW) at the ends, gooseneck lamps and wrought iron decorations. The line was just two tracks and sat right in the middle of Pitkin and Liberty avenues.
Rolling stock was all wooden by that point, with the exception of the Multis that ran 14th Street-Fulton service in the rush hours. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to imagine riding steam-powered trains over this part of the line in 1890!
While some parts of today's elevated lines - the 7 and J, for instance - are still a pleasure to ride, nothing quite equals the original Brooklyn and Manhattan els of the past for pure atmosphere.
My grandparents, until about 3-4 years ago lived on E. 15th Street between Ave. I and Ave. J. The Brighton Line was right in their backyard on an embankment. Many times did I stare at the trains going by.....I wonder how many stared back. Even better was when we had a barbeque with the grill in the backyard. I wonder how many were tempted to get off at Ave. J or Ave. H and satisfy their hunger.
Outside the Loop, the Lake Street El runs over Lake Street (excluding the western portion that uses former Chicago & Nortwestern embankment.
Also the M line seems to go very close to a bus depot.
Yeah, at Fresh Pond.
Here we go again. A few blocks west of East New York, original 1888 local stringers run out to Marcy Avenue. Around Gates Avenue (to Marcy), the original latticed columns are in place. If you doubt it, walk a block or so south on Myrtle Avenue from Broadway and see the remaining portion of the old Myrtle Avenue El which was also built in 1888. There you will see that the local stringers and columns are identical to that of the Broadway El. Pictures of local stringers of the old Lexington Avenue line in Brooklyn also bear this out. Stringers of the 1800s were much narrower that those of the Dual Contract era. The Dual Contract stringers under the express track of the Broadway El are much thicker and are identical to all stringers of the Dual Contract elevateds (they were even used under the express tracks of the late Manhattan Els). Don't take my word for it. Go there and take a look. If I'm wrong (and I'm not), I'll eat every word I said.
Eric Dale Smith
If you think the el is exactly like it was years ago I dare you to go to Ralph Av and Broadway (just w/o the Gates Av Station) where the Lex turned off the Bway El and just try to find ANY evidence whatsoever of the turnout. You won't find anything. They removed all evidence.
Jeff,
If one wants to view what a real lattice work el from the early period looks like, observe the Culver el from just south of Ave X to just south of the Van Siclen (oops, I mean Neptune Ave.)station. This portion of the el is pure lattice work.
Now, can one explain if this el was part of the Dual contract period, why is it built as a lighter lattice el?
Some explanations have been offered in the past, such as it being part of the old Fulton El structure, or that since it is built over marshland, only a lighter structure would do.
Anybody know? Have to admit it does look great, and is my favorite part of any el in New York, though all of the West End runs a close second.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Cap, did you get my email a few weeks ago?
I don't recall ever mentioning the turnout near Gates Avenue. I do know there was once a signal tower over the tracks of the Broadway El but of course that was removed years ago. However, there is a short stretch (one or two blocks) of the old Myrtle Avenue El just south of Broadway which was constructed in 1888. That is where you can see how the latticed columns and local stringers are identical to that of the Broadway El from Gates Avenue westward.
E_DOG
In your original post, you said:
" When you see those old latticed columns and local stringers from 1888, it can't help but give you a rush. This El, from Marcy Avenue to Crescent Street, has character. "
As was proved to you last year when you stated that all of the stringers WEST of Broadway Junction/ENY on the Broadway El were original of 1888 some time ago, again I must repeat myself that you are incorrect.
The original Broadway El structure had columns placed in the STREET. THESE columns dated to 1888. The original Broadway El has TWO tracks, and 4 strings, 2 per track, of course.
The alignment of the structure, when made wider by placing the columns CURBSIDE also involved the REPLACEMENT of the TWO TRACK (4 total) stringers for the now present THREE TRACK (total 6 stringers) wider structure. Pictures prove this, just like the ones that showed NEW stringers being installed at Myrtle/Broadway in 1915. I faxed these to you last year when you were insisting that all the stringers west of Broadway Junction/ENY were circa 1888.
How could the stringers be ORIGINAL to 1888 if the line went from two to three tracks? How can you explain the total reconstruction of the line, especially Myrtle/Broadway?
The Myrtle El south of Broadway was an unreconstructed El. Myrtle NORTH of Broadway was constructed to a Heavy Duty El in 1914-1915, when the line was moved from a surface running ROW to an El. This was the same time frame as the reconstruction of the Broadway El.
Same applies with the Lexington/Broadway connection. Lexington was an unimproved former el.
The only other 'original' El that was reconstructed to Heavy Duty Standards was the Fulton. Shame that most of it was torn down, even after reconstruction. There was a section of Fulton El which was NOT reconstructed, and only BU's and Multi's could traverse it.
The reconstruction involved keeping the 1888 stringers intact while replacing the crossbeams which were relatively thin since they only had to support two tracks. The newer crossbeams were of course much wider and as such the distance between the El and the street was reduced. The original latticed columns were retained except for those which were replaced to accomodate the newly alligned stations. For several blocks east of Gates Avenue, Dual Contract solid I-beam columns coexist with 1888 local stringers. This is the area you refer to for west of Gates Avenue the Broadway El was an extension of the Lexington Avenue line. This is where the original columns were in the street. For a few blocks west of Broadway Junction the entire line, stringers and columns, were rebuilt to Dual Contract specifications. An old burned out theatre should serve as a marking point where the 1888 stringers and Dual Contract columns coexist.
Eric Dale Smith
Nearly ALL of the stations on the Broadway Line were re-set from center platform (Hewes, Lorimer, Flushing, Park, Myrtle, Kosciusko, Gates, Chauncey, Manhattan Junction (Bway/ENY) to outside platform.
That means that, as I said before, that the columns had to be replaced, or upgraded. The line was not built for all-steel equipment back then, since no such equipment existed.
There is no evidence of original stringers being retained for Dual Contracts usage. The stringers had to have been upgraded, since the line was slated to run steel cars.
The picture evidence in fact shows stringers, crossbeams AND bents being replaced. Bent 717 shows a transistion point in progress in 1915. Bent 603 at the old Lexington connection also shows replaced stringers.
The Broadway El west of Gates was never considered an extension of the Lexington El. The original columns were in the street as far back as Broadway Ferry.
Your argument may hold water EAST of Broadway Junction to Cypress Hills, but not before.
I've seen other stations on the Broadway line, on a map from 1911....it must have really changed, post-Dual Contracts.
One war at a time please. We've got a beauty raging right now.
E_DOG
No "War". THis is just an EL of a conversation.
No "War". This is just an EL of a conversation about the Broadway El.
Nearly ALL of the stations on the Broadway Line were re-set from center platform (Hewes, Lorimer, Flushing, Park, Myrtle, Kosciusko, Gates, Chauncey, Manhattan Junction (Bway/ENY) to outside platform.
There was a Park Avenue Station?
There was, and on the M I think there were three island platforms between Wyckoff and Myrtle before it's rebuild....Knickerbocker, Central, Evergreen, and I think Seneca was called Covert Avenue. That I guess must've been when it was on the ground though because from Wyckoff ot Fresh Pond is the original el. It was built when the rest of the el was rebuilt around 1915.
Park Avenue was eliminated during the 1915 reconstruction. It was too close to the Myrtle Avenue and Flushing stations. The shorter steam driven trains could handle it but the longer electric and steel ones couldn't.
E_DOG
Was Kinckerbocker eliminated at the same time?
Knickerbocker is still a station. You may be thinking of Evergreen Avenue, that was a station between Central Ave, and Myrtle-Bway before the M line el was rebuilt in 1915
Knickerbocker is still a station. You may be thinking of Evergreen Avenue, that was a station between Central Ave, and Myrtle-Bway
I was indeed. You beat me to posting an oops message!
The best place to get that "old" El feeling is the Chicago Loop. Most of it still has the latticed girders (desinged to allow at least some sunlight to penetrate), and the Quincy-Wells station has been restored to look much as it did when it opened in the 1890s.
-- Ed Sachs
I fully agree though the last time I mentioned my preference for the Chicago system I got into some serious battles with some not to be named wise guys on this board. Because of its age I still rank the Brooklyn Broadway El above everything else but that said, in terms of the superior quality of the Chicago elevated system overall, comparing it to New York is like comparing Lennox Lewis to Mike Tyson; it is simply no contest.
Eric D. Smith
E Dog:
You gotta give this a rest - this is so old. Are you looking for a plug for your book on this subject?
ItalianGuyInSI put it very eloquently, and I personally challenge you to do more research than walking under the El. Go down to the TA - check their archieves at the Transit Museum - prove it out.
It was at the archives where I found old photographs of the Myrtle Avenue and Lexington Avenue lines that bore this out. It was AFTER I checked out those photos in the archives that I decided to go on site to verify my findings.
E_DOG
Photos in the archieves don't prove anything - how about a set of blueprints?
Photos in the archives don't prove anything - how about a set of blueprints?
Photos and on site observations are a great way to determine the age of a structure when blueprints are not available.
E_DOG
Did anyone notice that a good portion of the old Brooklyn/Broadway El still runs over Jamaica Avenue? Who says the Jamaica Avenue (imposter) El is dead?
E_DOG
They did remove just under 50 blocks of it though.......121 to 168th......
But over two thirds remain standing.
E_DOG
Don't forget those five stations that are gone too!
I'm grateful for the fact that indeed so much of that line remains outdoors, even from 2100 miles away; but I'd still miss the grand entry into "the city" at Jamaica after many miles of neighborhoods, which with one exception [Bushwick unless they're getting it restored] are interesting themselves. I still have to give a plug for my favorite existing els in NYC even though they were built as portions of subway lines: upper Broadway and along Westchester Ave and Southern Blvd. They have gorgeous station buildings with nice classic turn of the century architecture. Haven't been in a waiting room for a while but I'd guess they're pretty much original [?]
It's not dead. It was horribly disfigured in the decade from 1977 to 1988, and it's now only a hideous Frankensteinish ghost of it's former glory.
Let the Board say Amen. Amen!
Does anyone on the Board think that the new configuration is an improvement (functional or otherwise)? If not, then I wonder if anything was accomplished by creating the subway right of way for the J line.
Although I love riding on els and like how they look when you're on them I can't say they contribute to the aethetics of a neighborhood. From the street they are dark & ugly. (at least from a non-trainbuff point of view) And although I used to like taking the train from 168 after getting off the Bee Line from Hempstead as a kid, (pre LI Bus N6) I have to admit that Jamaica Av looks a zillion times better. And for LIRR riders who take the "E" or "F" you don't have to walk that long walk up Sutphin to Hillside anymore.
I love els, but as mentioned they do ruin the look of the street underneath. I never had the privelege to ride the Jamaica el before it was removed, and hate when they do remove transit lines. However, On the other hand, it is nice that both the Queens line, and the J line are connected to each other now, and also to the LIRR. It's too bad however that the line ends at Jamaica Center. Originally it was supposed to go further.
"I used to like taking the train from 168 after getting off the Bee Line from Hempstead "
Oh Oh... you just gave away your age! Bee Line indeed!
: ) Elias
The new configuration is a joke, partly because it took so long (eleven years after the first part of the El was shut down)to complete. Many of those same businesses which clammored for the El's removal had to close their doors forever since effective mass transit had been yanked from the central business district. We'd have all been better off if they'd simply left the El alone.
E_DOG
"We'd have all been better off if they'd simply left the El alone."
Amen
Correct. Many other commercial/retail areas of the city thrive with "ugly" els, like 86th St. in Brooklyn, the Pelham Parkway/White Plains Road area in the Bronx, Parkchester, etc. Jamaica would have been better served had the el survived to today, with clean overhauled cars and rebuilt stations. Darkness could have been alleviated by removing the middle track that ran thru 160th St.
It's a minor improvement, but not worth 10 years of no J service to Jamaica, and the replacement of a perfectly functional el with an expensive tunnel. NYC would be better served if the billions spent on the Archer Ave connection were funneled towards building the 2nd Ave line, even if only the "stubway" was completed.
Today's Times is reporting on a poll it conducted with CBS News on New Yorkers' attitudes in the wake of September 11th. Basically, the results indicate that people feel pretty good about the state of the city today but are fearful of another terrorist attack.
What I found interesting is the following line:
More than one-third of subway riders said they were uneasy while riding underground, while one-quarter of New Yorkers who visit or work in skyscrapers said the experience left them on edge.
It sounds almost counter-intuitive. Skycrapers were attacked, in a very deadly manner, while the only recent incident involving the subways is the rather absurd-sounding threat of a nerve gas attack on the Fourth of July. Yet people are more fearful of the subway than they are of skyscrapers. Very odd, if you ask me.
My guess is because it's usually easy to exit a building in an emergency. Buildings are required to have well marked exits, clear paths to those exits, well documented emergency procedures, etc. They're required to have a fire marshal and floor searchers etc. (We're talking office buildings here, not residential towers.) If you work in a building its likely you sit at the same desk every day and know the quickest route to the exits just because you walk past it every day.
Of those safety features, which does the subway have? Well marked exits? No. Clear paths to the exits? No. Published emergency procedures? Not that I know of.
I'm not saying we should be fearful of the subways. But if I had to escape an attack I think I'd prefer being in my office building than in a subway train between stations.
Yes, but...
Subway tunnels between stations are not targets for 767s
(They use sarin gas for that)
Elias
Doesn't matter. Attacks are attacks. You still need to get out somehow.
I think the media coverage basically begging someone to attack the subway has a lot to do with it.
Fire Safety Director, with a certificate of fitness granted by the FDNY, is mandatory in any building over 22,000 square feet.
My guess is because it's usually easy to exit a building in an emergency.
Usually, but not always, as many who were on floors above the impact areas of the Twin Towers soon realized. I'd rather be 2 levels below ground that 100 stories in the air anyday.
Evacuation plans make sense in office buildings because there are more-or-less permanent "populations" in the buildings who can learn about the plans. In the subway, by contrast, the sheer numbers of passengers and the obvious transience of the "population" would make any sort of training impossible. As a result, the emphasis is on training workers to assist passengers in case of emergency. That does not mean, however, that better emergency signage wouldn't be a bad idea.
the derailment on NJT in my opinion is a split switch. If its true why would the engineer on the train request permission from the tower knowing that the engine and at least one car were passed the switch already damaged back the train up? once a train has split the switch isn't it a cardinal rule never to back the train up?
We are told here in NYCTA "Never Back up a Train after a switch has been split." It could put the train on the ground.
Robert
Remember the Washington Metro accident a long time ago, when the train
backed over a switch after it was thrown. Half the car went one way, and the other half crashed into a wall of pillars.
Chuck
School car instruction if it is ever followed to observe the iron and the signal and get permission before moving your train. In some instances multiple split switches could occur in some yards in one wrong move!! YIKES! but that never occurs here in NYCT......
How much to you want to bet that it never hapen in NYCTA Yard. Let say $1,000,000.00. I like to in small bill please.
Robert
We had a discussion thread a while back on The Other Side of the Tracks board about the term "split switch".
The conclusion was that the TA is unique in its nomenclature.
On every other railroad, going through a rigid trailing point
switch that is set against you is called a "run-through". If
one then backs up, the result is usually a "split switch", i.e.
part of your train goes one way, part the other, and derails.
Anyway, regardless of what you call it, if the train ran through
the switch, either the signal system failed, or the engineer
went past a red home signal. The error was then compounded by
the dispatcher giving permission to back up.
So then, if you "split a switch" on the TA, i.e. RUN THROUGH, and then back up and wind up on the ground, what do you call the result of the backup move?
I probably read the answer on nycrail, but I've been cleaning out my brain recently.
what do you call the result of the backup move?
A blood alchohol test?
He did't run through a switch initially. His train was misrouted to hoboken and after bringing the train to a stop, the engineer was given permission to back up through the interlocking to try it again. However, the dispatcher had thrown the switch b4 the train started backing and it then ran-through and derailed
There was no signal protection? or was the train only partway through the plant?
A sectional route locking gotcha!
I thought he backed up the train and the lead 2 cars (including
the engine) derailed? That sounds like the switch was thrown
under the train, which falls under the "can't happen" category.
Is there a word between "can't" and "shouldn't."
You know, for a 99.9999% failsafe system, would it be:
Demi-Can't
Nearly-Can't
DamnNear-Can't
*-Discuss-*
You bet your sweet bippy it is!
I was waiting this afternoon for a northbound local at Houston when an R-62A 2 train stopped on the southbound side. This wasn't a 3 train from 14th to the Bronx signed as a 2; I saw it south of 14th running to Flatbush, and all side signs, as far as I could tell, had the correct 2 destinations. What happened? (The south end car was 2170, with red stripes.)
Then there must have been two of them today because I rode on an R62A 2 train from Burke Ave to 34th Street. The south end car was 2281, also red stripes. I wonder why.
I'm sorry, the north end car was 2170. My mistake. I'm not sure about the south end, but 2281 sounds plausible.
What time was your ride? My sighting was around 5pm.
I got on at about 8:15 this morning. I didn't see the northern five cars. Maybe it was the same train.
You probably saw the GAP train. A train held usually at 137 or Utica that is used to fill a GAP in service.
theres a least one or 2 r62a on the 2 everyday
I boarded the train at Burke Avenue. All of the bottom rollsigns were set for Flatbush Avenue. But maybe it came from Utica.
As of right now, my plans are still to head up to NYC on Saturday (June 15th) to poke around the city and ride some subway trains.
So far, Kevin Walsh, American Pig, and heypaul have expressed an interest in meeting up with me. We'll be meeting at 2:00 PM at the Times Square station, at the shuttle platform near the little metal bridge that goes over the connector track. Anybody who wishes to join us is welcome to show up.
What will we be doing? Well, that's still up in the air, but here's a possible intinerary:
1) (7) Flushing Line to some undetermined point and back (Main Street?)
2) Possibly some other stuff, time permitting
3) (L) Canarsie Line to Broadway Junction
4) (A) train to Franklin Avenue
5) (S) Franklin Shuttle to Prospect Park
6) (Q) Brighton Line to Coney Island, where we'll cap off a beautiful summer evening.
Of course, none of this is written in stone yet, and I'm always open to any other ideas. Also, if there's any GO's that could possibly impact these plans, let me know.
Thanks!
-- David
Chicago, IL
One note: you'll want the C, not the A, in Brooklyn. The A is an express and Franklin Avenue is a local stop. You can take the A as far as Nostrand, but then you'll have to go downstairs to catch the C one more stop.
Have fun. Check the NYCT service advisories listing, preferably after it's been updated on Friday. If you want to see mass confusion, check out the 6th Avenue line, where C trains (but no D trains!) will be running north on the D line.
If you take an A to Nostrand, you'd have to backtrack one stop on the C to get to Franklin Ave.
They're coming from Broadway Junction (aka Broadway-ENY). Don't assume everyone's coming from Manhattan.
Unless they're using unlimited cards (probably not a bad idea in any case), they couldn't backtrack at Nostrand without paying an extra fare.
David....... Yankees and METS going at it this weekend....
perhaps u may wanna steer clear the thousands of crying
yawnkee fans leaving the SHEA vicinity....
Thanks for the heads-up. What's the game time?
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think it's going to be the Mets fans who will be crting, given the way the Mets have been playing of late. They haven't made this many errors since 1962.
And when, at ANY TIME, did the Mets beat the Yankees in a series that counted?????
eesh... to think Piggo and I come from the same 'line'... lol
If the GO on the J line is in effect this weekend (Manhattan bound trains run express from Broadway Junction to Marcy Ave, don't miss it. Same is true if the C is running express to or from 145th Street.
--Mark
I will try to be there, too. I'll know for sure by Friday.
Which stations on the 7 line in Queens see the most usage? Queensboro plaza is an obvious transfer point but I think Main and Junction are the busiest stations followed by 74th st.
Sometimes it seems Junction is busier than Main, in the afternoon the train really empties out at Junction, and there's alot more breathing room.
This is my experience anyway with the peak direction 7 express service.
2000 ridership figures (annual registrations):
Main Street: 16,582,717 (busiest station outside Manhattan)
Willets Point: 1,224,846
111th Street: 2,633,793
103rd Street: 4,747,981
Junction Boulevard: 6,114,861
90th Street: 5,540,085
82nd Street: 5,898,587
74th Street: (station complex)
69th Street: 1,594,369
61st Street: 4,546,695
52nd Street: 1,932,097
46th Street: 4,192,116
40th Streete: 3,120,614
33rd Street: 3.041,631
Queensboro Plaza: (station complex)
45th Road: 1,122,769
Hunters Point Avenue: 1,386,684
Vernon-Jackson: 1,749,341
Total: 65,429,186
David
Out of curiosity, does the TA have any loading figurs for the express vs. the local?
Yes (the subway schedules office routinely conducts passenger counts), but I don't have access to them.
David
I'm surprised Shea Stadium doesn't get more ridership. Not only do the Mets play there, but the parking lot is one of the easiest places to park near the subway, even if you do have to pay.
:-) Andrew
Yes, but Shea is also mostly otherwise inaccessible to the surrounding neighborhoods.
There are few residences near the Willets Pt. station. Outside of days with games at Shea as well as the US Open, this station is hardly used.
Personally, I think that only Mets fans, tennis fans, students that go to the science musuem and park, and TA workers used that station. Ok maybe the junkyard workers as well.
Thanks. Well I was right about Main street, that is one busy station. And Junction ranked 2nd in ridership, just as I thought.
Junction must be a busy area, it is the heart of Corona which has always been a crowded migrant community, but only the Q72 bus stops there, so it's not a bus hub like Flushing.
Well I was right about Main street, that is one busy station.
Are there ridership stats for the buses out of Flushing?
I'm surprised at the ridership differences between the 3 Sunnyside stops (33rd, 40th, and 46th).
Im not surprised that 33rd is last, because its mostly an industrial area, but im surprised there is a 1 million ridership difference between 40th and 46th. My home station (40th) is more central to the residential community, but 46th is more commercial. Im surprised the small commercial district on 46th could be responsible for that much of a ridership difference.
6401-05 are in service now, coupled to 6776-80, for the trip from Bowling Green this afternoon.
-Stef
6471-75/6481-85 was doing simulated runs last night.
Let's try to get off this rant about what Branford should be doing and what it hasn't done.
We must move forward and make it the best damn place it can possibly be! Negative thinking will only hold us back.
I am a hobbyist, not a Politician. I take pride in what I do. If I get joy out of nursing an old 77,000lb monster, so be it. If someone else wants to work on a vintage 1920s trolley, so be it! We each have a goal, and it's called preservation. The story of electric traction must be told, so that future generations can appreciate places like Branford, Seashore, and others.
In short, Progress Is The Key!
-Stef
Right On, Stef. Negativatism NEVER accomplished squat in preservation.
I agree, but as I have been a member at Branford longer than you have(OK I am a non-participating one but I do make quarterly $ contributions) I can tell you that the big problem there is that many of the older members (meaning before I joined in the 1980's) consider the museum to be their own private club and because of it the museum has not been able to do much of what it could. That is why there is so much politics involved.
I would not be shocked if the same existed in other museums.
The last time I was up there was a couple of years ago and I was appaled at the condition of Hi-V 3662 and PCC 1001. Prior to that visit it was 15 years when I visited and those cars were in better condition. Quite frankly,I was going to rip up my membership card right then and there. But after I thought about it I felt it would be unfair to hold the entire organization responsible for the actions (or inactions) of a few. So I will continue to be a financial supporter. I have been told ome work has been done on these cars but I will believe next time I can get up there to see it.
Preservation means more than just working on selected cars to restore them to as close to new as possible. It also means protecting all the equipment to prevent further deterioration of the cars as they stand waiting until work can be done on them. Having 5 pieces of equipment looking and running like new means nothing if the rest of the collection is crumbling around it. Let's face facts, the salt air off of LI Sound is not exactly beneficial to the metal of the cars.
Stef, believe me when I say I have nothing but admiration for the time and effort that you Thurston and others put in on the collection.
Just my 2 cents.
Allan
One of the guides mentioned that 1001 would have to be re-restored when I visited the museum during the mid-80s.
Allen:
You are quite correct in your accessment of the museum as it existed a few years ago. However, the "club" mentality has changed significantly with the addition of many new members who are participating in the revival of the museum.
We are moving ahead with plans to house all of the collection. While I will not discuss specifics here, I invite you to come up and speak with me, or Jeff H., to gain a new perspective on what we plan to do.
What I am most pleased about is the fact that the number of volunteers who are participating in work around the shop has increased significantly. (Sparky can address operations). I have been at Branford for nearly 15 years, and I have never seen the level of activity that we currently have. This past Saturday, work was done on a rapid transit car, a trolley car, a bus, a work car, the dispatchers shack, track, and grounds. The signal system has been significantly upgraded, and work continues on that project. The H & M car just spent two weeks in the shop when Victor Gordon made his annual visit. Most important, the good work and much improved attitude is not affected by former members who have not paid their dues yet see fit to spread poison on this forum. I am really amused by this, as all the former "members of the club" now have 20/20 hindsight.
I will also address cars 1001 and 3662. 1001 has received an enormous amount of mechanical work, much of it performed by Jeff H. Some of what he has done actually corrected mistakes that were made in the shops in Brooklyn before the car was moved to Branford. The reason the skin looks poor is that the wrong primer was applied before the car was painted. When 6688 is done, the crew may look to paint 1001 as our next project. 3662 is another matter. Restoration was started, and the person doing it stopped and allowed the accumulated sand (From the sandblasting) to remain inside. Damp salt air and wet sand were a horrible combination, and the car needs much work on the steel shell. Again, Jeff H. keeps the car sound mechanically, and it is housed to prevent further decay. Eventually, this car may return to her former glory.
Please keep those contributions coming. We certainly appreciate the financial support of our members, without which we could not survive.
Lou,
I am pleased to read that the "club" mentality is becoming a thing of the past.
It is nice to know that 1001 is getting some needed care and that 3662 will be properly housed until the needed work can be done (hopefully it won't have to wait not too long) While it being mechancially sound is fine, it doesn't mean anything if there is no body left.
My membership is current and will continue to be so. I will also continue my quarterly contributions to the Museum efforts.
Allan
Jeff and other members haave done some great work on 1001. Even re-installing the hand-parking brake which we use for close put aways in the barn. All of this is inside the car, while she looks not so hot, she runs HOT and FAST.
I've learned alot about PCC's and electrical work from working with Jeff under the car (learned where not to bang my head at 6'8" under a PCC). Before I went to BERA all I knew about electricty and such was plug it in and check the fuse.
Bug up the car and don't use use your gimmick light from knife switch to ribbon fuse for propulsion tests!!!! CI Peter
Thanks for the information on the upcoming repainting of Brooklyn PCC #1001. I was born and raised in Brooklyn and enjoyed riding the PCC cars on Coney Island Ave. as young boy. I'm a member of BERA but I haven't had the opportunity to visit Branford in the last few years as I now reside in Pennsylvania. My hats off to you and your staff for doing a remarkable job at the museum. Also, sorry to hear of HI-V #3662s dilemma but again my hat's off to Branford for taking the additional precautions to protect it from further damage while awaiting restoration.
My best to you,
Bklynsubwaybob
The recent leadership of Branford bit the bullet & housed or covered almost the entire collection of 100 odd cars. Unfortunately that's not the case at many other museums. I'm thinking of one where the collection is mostly rotting or rusting away for reasons not totally with in the control of their current leadership ... that is sad.
Those of us who would hate to see this stuff gone forever do what we can. I think it's great that we have a bunch of out-of-town friends who are cheering us on & keep their membership current even though there is not much hope that they personally can go for a ride with us.
Mr rt__:^)
To add my two cents here: BU car 1227 will be 100 next year, so getting her 'spiffy' over the next several months is also something that would be nice to achieve...
---
I agree, but as I have been a member at Branford longer than you have(OK I am a non-participating one but I do make quarterly $ contributions) I can tell you that the big problem there is that many of the older members (meaning before I joined in the 1980's) consider the museum to be their own private club and because of it the museum has not been able to do much of what it could. That is why there is so much politics involved.
I would not be shocked if the same existed in other museums.
---
It exists at other museums for sure, but also at other railfan groups in general. At least with those groups that aren't museums, the political problems don't generally damage or neglect physical objects. The museum I'm a member of is definitely a politicised organisation. The last time I was there, which would be about three weekends ago now, I ended up shoving half an Oh Henry bar down my throat so I wouldn't say anything nasty about someone's little theory about why they don't any young volunteers. And, oddly enough, I was speaking with another person about the political nature of railfan groups while I was there, at the end of the day.
-Robert King
A couple nights ago while Jersey Mike was sending me pics of railroad drawbridges in New Jersey, I came across this photo on my hard drive that I had totally forgotten about. It was sent to me a several years ago by a friend from South Africa who had taken the photo from a plane while flying into NYC. It was his first-ever view of the city, and he felt moved to take a photo. It seems even more moving now.
I think some people here might appreciate it, so I thought I'd share.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That's a great shot. Thanks for share that photo David.
Absolutely beautiful picture......very thought provoking. Thanks for sharing it.
Thanks. In that photo it's almost as if the towers are floating in heaven.
In response to that photo, I found a nice little piece of hate mail waiting for me this morning:
From: gilgal [proudjew@012.net.il]
To: DavidCole@NthWard.com
i did enjoy the pic. Makes me good everytime I see how america got its rewards for supporting terrorism. Ever ride in a bullet prof bus? I do and all because america says we have to be friends with arafat Of course america doesnt have to be friends with Bin Laden. But that is nothing new Americans and new yorkers are known for their evil hypocrisy. I just am sorry that the dirty bomber was caught yesterday However dont worry you will get yours and I just hope a lot of subtalkers are killed when it happens You are the worst of a a very coldblooded hypocritical people that cry when anything happens to you but cant be bothered before then. I hope that this email will be used as ammunition against the people of america and New york in the spiritual world where everything is fior real
Proving once again that religious fanaticism, ignorance, and illiteracy seem to go hand-in-hand. Lovely...
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't know where the nut that sent you that is coming from - as a strictly Orthodox Jew and as an Israeli (yes, I've left New York), I can say that the opinion is contrary to everything in Judaism, no matter how far to the right you go; I knew the late Rabbi Meir Kahana (considered to be the leader of the Jewish far right) personally, and can say with absolute certainty that he would have condemed the sentiments expressed.
subfan
Every group seems to have its own nutcases... God knows us Christians are no different (David Koresh, Pat Robertson).
-- David
Chicago, IL
A really tough call for me to attend SubSchool this week...a missing piece for the class of September 17th...thankyou for sharing. CI Peter
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What a great photograph. It sent chills up and down my spine. Thanks for sharing.
Here's a sort of humorous article from the New York Times on the state of the last few restrooms in the system, the condition of which range from deplorable to down right shambles.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/11/nyregion/11TUNN.html?tntemail1
Actually I wanted to add that it's no wonder that people resort to using the pillars at the end of the stations, which has got to be better than venturing into one of those restrooms.......
If I have to hold it for two hours at a time so can the rest of you. I might add I drink 1 Gallon of water a day.
Pee at the bar you tanked up at.
I didn't say I was using the pillars. But obviously they are used quite often by people, by the look of the rust, and the stains on the floor.
Most of the time it's a man using the pillars, but I have see woman using it to, I seen this one woman on the G line one time just leaning with her back to one with her pants down. I did not see anything nor did I want to, becouse I stoped at one end of Fulton St were the OPTO mark was a saw her as I was leaving the station on the other end. So I guess that woman can be just as bad a a man when it come right down to it.
Robert
Don't mind this one, my doughter keeped one bother me while I was typing and I thought I was previewing to not just posting it.
Robert
Most of the time it's a man using the pillars, but I have see woman using it to, I seen this one woman on the G line one time just leaning with her back to one with her pants down. I did not see anything nor did I want to, becouse I stoped at one end of Fulton St were the OPTO mark was and she was at the leaving end of the station. So I guess that woman can be just as bad a a man when it come right down to it.
Robert
I've seen men urinating nearly every time I've been to the lower-level C platform of the Nostrand Ave. station, and from the casualness of the people doing it, it's clear that undercover Transit Police and surveillance cameras are unknown to that platform. My personal favorite is a guy that was peeing down on the rails and platform from halfway up the stairs to the A platform, presumably so that he could see whichever train came first.
Society has changed dramatically over the last few decades. I trust the reason most of the transit restrooms have been closed is due to the sick behavior of individuals that used them as sexual gratification parlors or to committ robberies. And don't forget the vandalism. All of us at one time or another has gotten caught short, but let's face it, most of the people that urinate or deficate in the subways are just filthy pigs that don't give a damn and have no consideration for the rest of us that utilize the subway for what it was intended; getting from one place to another.
Gee... And I remember when you weren't allowed to *spit* on the subway.
most of the people that urinate or deficate in the subways are just filthy pigs
NO! They're filthy humans. Pigs and other animals have to be carried through the subway in humiliating cages.
You're absolutely right. I shouldn't have made a reference to the true animal sector.
Does anyone know where these restrooms are? I know from the article there is one at Herald Sq, but what are some other locations?
I think there is one at Grand Central, but I don't know if it's still there.
Stillwell Avenue (F,N,Q,W)
Brighton Beach (Q,Q)
Sheepshead Bay (Q,Q)
Mott Avenue (A)
Beach 116 Street (A,S)
179 Street (F)
14 Street (L,N,Q,Q,R,W,4,5,6)
34 Street (B,D,F,N,Q,Q,R,V,W)
I'm pretty sure the bathroom at DeKalb was open about six months ago.
Yes, DeKalb Avenue has one.
Years ago there was one at the Chambers St-Brooklyn Bridge complex, because I remember using it once. I doubt it's still there though. Considering what Chambers STreet looks like, if it is there I'd hate to see the condition it's in!
On one of the pieces of recruiting literature for transit it did list special bathrooms as a benefit of working here.
They are nice but only in comparison to the public ones.
On time I was railfanning out in Rockaway... I got out to Broad Channel, took a shuttle to Mott Avenue. When I had to "go" I found the restroom there. It was out of order. I missed my train and waited 20 minutes for the next shuttle to come. I didn't think any trains form there to Broad Channel had any restrooms so I went straight to Broad Channel. I went there looped over and didn't find any. I didn't think I could hould it out to anywhere more north. So went to the platform and waited for a shuttle and it just left. Waited for the next shuttle and went over to Beach 116 Street. Thank god they had one there It wasn't that bad but not that good. When I left, some homeless dude came in and was leaning on the all. It wasn't a fun experience.
Would it be better if they were able to charge, and could afford to actually maintain and secure restrooms? I'd say so. A think 50 cents wouldn't be too much for a clean, safe, civilized environment.
We have the hero who made the restrooms "free" to thank for this.
Hey, that's right, back in the 60's you had to pay a nickel, didn't you? Heck, a token or a card swipe would not be too much to pay for access to clean safe facility.
I do believe that other systems tried to go to a comercial provider for these services. At a buck a visit, the ought to be able to hire an attendant to manage the place.
Now, out here, on our interstates we have these automated restrooms, protected with video cameras all over the place., but.... you TOUCH NOTHING in there! The flush, an the running water and the hand driers are all automatic. There is not a single valve or switch tat you can operate. There are not even any doors on the place, but only a twisty entry path so that others cannot see inside.
Each facility cost about $2M, but they are free to use. Of course you do have to get past an army of pop and candy machines that try to reach out and get your money. There is even a computer terminal in there that you can log onto for a price.
This is not your father's BMT rest room.
Elias
Hey, that's right, back in the 60's you had to pay a nickel, didn't you? Heck, a token or a card swipe would not be too much to pay for access to clean safe facility.
I do believe that other systems tried to go to a comercial provider for these services. At a buck a visit, the ought to be able to hire an attendant to manage the place.
Unfortunately, no matter how fancy or clean the subway restrooms could become, I doubt it will stop the "stains from the pillars" at the ends of stations. The people who would stoop to this unsanitary behavior, would probably not pay a buck (or any amount) to use the pay restrooms anyway. They probably would continue to use the pillars.
However, it would help the majority of passengers who would love a clean facility, if they happen to be stuck if the need arises.
Does anyone know on when the Girard Av Route 15 will resume & when it is resumed, will it operate out of Elmwood Division because I hear that there are plans to built a new Callowhill Division on the same site or nearby.
Can anyone confirm this.
The Rt 15 trolley is "Slated to begin in 2003," according to the Septa.org website. The Project's page is under Septa News, and all the way at the bottom, just above the 30th street MFL/Sub-Surface station renovation, in the Construction area.
PhillyTrolley.org also has some on the rebuilding of the Rt.15, and at http://www.phillytrolley.org/girard-index.html, there are photos of the rebuilding.
I am really excited about the reopening of the Rt 15 Trolley, since I moved here only four years ago ('98), I missed all the Rt23, Rt56, and Rt15 action, and missed the PCCs totally. I have made up for that, I hope, by worshiping the K cars. A favorite activity has become sitting in 30th street station, or elsewhere in the subway, and watching them just roll by.
If the Rt15 trolley goes well, does anyone on this board actually think Septa may bring back any of the other Trolley lines. Rt 56 seems a logical choice, basically an extention of the Rt 15, just further north, it could help with congestion on Roosevelt and 95.
Rt 15 reopened around 1995 or 1996 (IIRC) when Rt. 10 was out, then closed when Rt.10 came back. Even though they're doing massive replacement of infrastructure now on Rt. 15, they evidently though the old infrastructure was good enough to run temporary service.
For trolley watching I prefer the 40th St. portal to 30th. It's outside, and you can move around more for better views.
I'd like to see Route 23 restored, myself. I think I've read here that this would require rebuilding the facility at Callowhill, though.
Mark
For trolley watching I prefer the 40th St. portal
Here are a couple shots taken at 40th Street last December.
Great shots. I rode that PCC last December with my fiance. We had a great time. Some friends of mine used to live right above the portal, too. I'd love to have that apartment!
Mark
I agree-the 23 from Chestnut Hill to South Philly definitely needs to be brought back. I dont think too much track work would be needed, since probably at least 98% of all the track is in perfect working order.
I think it would be nice to see some form of dedicated ROW rail transit on Roosevelt Blvd. If Philly needs a new subway, it has to be a Roosevelt Blvd one.
Yes, Roosevelt Boulevard is in need of a subway, and there is a plan working its way through the bureaucratic machinery right now. (Whether it's working its way otward becoming reality or toward oblivion, I can't say.) But the plan calls for a subway that branches off the Broad Street Subway north of Erie and then travels under the Boulevard to the far Northeast, ending at Southampton Road. A single alternative has finally been chosen from many plans, and it calls for an underground line, but with open cut stations to save money. In addition, the Market-Frankford line would be extended a short distance northward to meet the new line where Roosevelt Boulevard intersects Bustleton Avenue.
Here is the website of the project:
Roosevelt Boulevard Transportation Investment Study
I think it's needed in a desparate way. A third of Philadelphia's citizens live in the Northeast. The MFL is packed on Frankford-bound trains during the evening rush hour, and most stay on until the last stop, connecting to buses to take them the rest of the way home. I lived in the Northeast for three years, and it would have been nice to be able to walk to a subway station from my house. I eventually moved to West Philly, so it doesn't affect me as directly now, but I still feel strongly that the new line is needed.
Mark
Agreed. The Roosevelt Av project is worthy.
The Schuylkill Valley Metro ("Metrorail") is ahead of it in political priority (due to support from suburban politicians). If anything gets built, the SVM will happen first - political realities. The good news is the entire R6 loop will be offered 100% subway-style high-platforms, ADA-compliant stations, and subway-like frequency.
But I agree with your post.
Yeah, and anyone who has ever driven the Schuylkill Expressway knows the need for better transit along that corridor is pressing. But I have reason to fear that neither project may get funded. Certain voices in Washington have warned that the SVM proposal, with its trains to Reading every 15 minutes, is way too costly and extravagant to be funded. Calls from the feds to scale it back some have largely gone unheeded by the planners. I tend to agree with the critiscisms myself. So does the City of Philadelphia, who's concerns were often ignored by a largely suburban-oriented planning team. But I am glad to hear that the R6 loop will get subway-like service. I'm still not sure why they have to invent a whole new mode for this project, though...
As for Roosevelt Boulevard, it lost a major backer in Congress, namely Robert Borski, who had an important position in deciding how federal transportation dollars are spent. He represented NE Philly, but the districts were redrawn, eliminating his district. None of the new districts would have been likely to re-elect him, so he opted not to run for re-election.
I hate it when one badly needed rail project can only come at the expense of another. The main thing Roosevelt Boulevard has over SVM is that the former is cheaper, at least in Washington's eyes. So who knows. I'd really rather see both corridors get the rail transit they need.
Mark
You bring up a lot of good points.
One of the differences between Philly and New York is that, in Philly, the suburbs rule. If SEPTA scaled back the R6 redevelopment to within city limits, the project would die because SEPTA's suburban-majority board would vote to kill it. And Philly is more dependent on commuter rail for in-city travel than New York is.
This is the sad truth. As a potential customer I always thought a conversion of R6 within the City (or even to Miquon, just over the line) to rapid transit would tie the only portion of the City without it (Roxborough/Manayunk/East Falls) to the rapid network. Even a light rail service tieing into the subway-surface would work. Instead we get the 'express' 9, 27, 61 buses.
The city/suburbs friction will force the region to choose only one of the Schuylkill Valley Metro and Roosevelt Blvd Rapid lines. As you noted, the former, with its suburban appeal, will likely win out, even though the latter would attract many Bucks and lower Montgomery County citizens who are now crowding their ways on I-95 every day.
The work on 15 will be done by the end of this year but the cars aren't nearly ready yet. The first of those to be rehabbed is at the Brookville (PA) works as this is written. SEPTA will need about 15 cars to protect the service and 18 are going to go thru rehab (with an option for 5-6 others).
This was supposed to get the line open next year, but according to today's Metro, the opening will be in '04.
As long as the current SEPTA mindset is in place, don't hold your breath for 23 or 56 to get reinstituted. The current management is more dollars and cents oriented (after all, the new GM was the former chief financial officer). Neither 23 nor 56 can effectively be run from Callowhill (just as 15 can't operate from Elmwood) and that will be the first challenge to bringing back rail. Luzerne is no longer a possible car base and Midvale would be an expensive proposition to serve trolleys. Germantown could be used but it would be a long, slow pull-in/pull-out for 56, and neighborhood opposition is what contributed to its closure as an operating base several years ago.
23 has the benefit of the better infrastructure, so there is a plus there, but it has proved to be too long to operate efficiently (even as a bus line). 56 has lots of possibility for separated R/W but is in great need of rail replacement. Parts of it risk being paved over since the track/pavement is so bad.
This article in the NY Times talks a little about the vault lighting that was present in a lot of stations.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/19/realestate/19SCAP.html?tntemail1
I know the original IRT had a lot of vault lighting. Was it present in either the IND or the BMT also?
It said a lot of the vault lighting was replaced with the metal grates common on a lot of sidewalks, and drip pans thus blocking out light. I was wondering if the ornate grates at the top of some subway station's walls, such as the canarsie line at Graham Ave were not actually air wents, but realy light vents.
I've always thought the vents at Graham St were for air. Not for light. They're a little too high for light to shine in.
The new yearly Metrocard is now replacable if lost or stolen.... reports my favorite radio station.
Well almost. Like anything the MTA does, you had better read the fine print !
- If you loose this yearly card, you're SOL for the rest of THAT month. A-N-D if you happen to be a LIRR Mail-N-Ride customer this could become a rather big hit to your wallet. BTW would you believe my official TA contact asked WHO told me about this new card, he hadn't heard anything about it. I replied Mr Daily News < G > He went ohhhh ... do I like pinching the elephants tail < G >
- "MTA says 92% of folks are using MetroCards" ... well at this depot it's more like 82% and on the week-ends it's below 70%. Maybe that's do to our off-peek dollar fare or maybe their numbers are a little inflated.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA, TA or nycDOT and am speaking just for myself, so Pete Donohue I'm not an "official source".
Mr rt__:^)
I would agree that it's the off-peak $1 fare. When I'm traveling with my "pay per view" MC (that is, I don't think I'll take 3 fare-based trips in a day to make the FunPass worthwhile), I'll always forgo the dip for the buck when on one of your buses.
Thank you for you patronage, please step to the rear & enjoy your ride. Next stop Kissena Blvd.
Mr rt__:^)
>>>"I would agree that it's the off-peak $1 fare"<<<
Is the Queens Bus discount on off-peak fares applicable to the regular
fares only? Is there an equivalent "cash discount" for seniors &
handicapped?
:-) Sparky
Is there an equivalent "cash discount" for seniors &
handicapped?
Yes, flash the picture side of the RFM (or other acceptable ID) to the driver and deposit 50 cents.
All thanks to Rudy!!!
Come on Sparky, you didn't know about this??
NO, I did not know about this!!!
:-) Sparky
We haven't made too big a deal about it in Greenpoint, not too many Republicans there < G >
I know, us Polski are democrats. But how about my lansmen in Maspeth? The Q67, QSC or Q18/Q39 TCC.
Is this a Queens thing or do the riders of Command in the borough of Kings have the same option?
:-) Sparky
Yes, all the private companies have the same option, be they in the New York-occupied County of Queens, or the New York-occupied City of Brooklyn.
"MTA says 92% of folks are using MetroCards" ... well at this depot it's more like 82% and on the week-ends it's below 70%. Maybe that's do to our off-peek dollar fare or maybe their numbers are a little inflated.
The numbers seem right if your depot is 82%.
Not only do you have the off-peak discount, but remember that with buses, you can pay with regular change. On the subway, one has to buy a fare medium, and the only alternative is the token.
The numbers would be much higher if buses were not included. And I think (only THINK, don't actually know) a majority of token users are people qualified to get reduced fare who don't bother to apply for an RFM.
How does one go about reporting a lost yearly card? Sooner or later I'll have to answer that question to a customer at work.
When you receive it you'll get the instructions or contact the MetroCard Customer Service office at 370 Jay Street.
Mr rt__:^)
That is going to be big fun.
Not too many customers read announcements on the statioms about G/O's. So, how many of them will remember the keep the instructions? They better have something to read. Regular TransitChek users don't get any paper work to read. And when they call Jay Street, they are going to be asked for the card number. Quick, What is the 10 digit number on the back of your card now?
OK, you'll enjoy this: I had a couple of "internal" cards that were acquired for testing our fareboxes, $15 on each. I buy these white cards & tell the staff if they get caught using them in the system I won't bail them out of jail. Anyhow, I bought a bunch & didn't use two, SO I put them in the "official" refund envelope AND added a note to the Supervisor I know who works in the office. Recently I got a call from the Treasurer of the TA saying he couldn't give me the refund (I asked that they just put it in our account) because that supervisor was confused. Got the cards back in the mail, had to call TA security, then that supervisor ... well it has been an awful lot of work for $30 (I of course am holding out for $33) AND I don't have the money YET ... just think of how much it has cost the TA for all the folks that got involved.
Oh do I love pinching the elephants tail !
Mr rt__:^)
As of 6/10/02
R142A's
7641-45/ 7651-55 in Service on the # 6 Line. We now have all our R142A's but since they are doing Modifications on the R142A's the No.6 Line still has about 5 sets of R62A's and 1 R33 from the No.5 Line.
The No.5 Line has 8 sets of R142's running.
#5 gets inspection June 18th and 19th on R142s. Clean work! CI Peter
I been seeing a lot of R142's during the week but none on weekends. During the week I always get the R142.
However next week I will be off the Eastside. I am half sorry I'm leaving the No.5 Line but I need the AM tour and the only way to do it was go to the No.1 Bway Line. I'm glad this is going to be a short pick.
hey...you do what is right for you!!! At SubSchool we were considering the same thoughts...keep the tour but cut out the extra workload. CI Peter
What kind of modifications are the cars recieving?
Vapor door mods and Wabco brake mods along with the myriad of 'updates' that hang these trainsets out of RTO operation. CI Peter
I saw 7221-25 heading down to TS spur, it looks like it was coming from 207St yard.
I guess I have one more two cents worth on the subject: if some established orders could be changed there is no reason a lot of interchanges and iprovements, flexibility, etc couldn't be done with mass transit. Admittedly with many systems equipment couldn't be totally compatible due to clearances mostly, changes could be made such as a PATH_MTA read IRT merger. The FRA is one stumbling block, another is the parent organizations keeping their own turf. I don't claim to say it would be easy. Laws can be abolished or modified. For example to my knowledge NYCT cannot operate outside city limits; in Chicago some CTA rail lies go past city limits and have done so for years..from the beginnngs. Believe it or not I had a Railway age magazine once that had a clipping from about 1924 with ideas of the IRT building thru to New Jersey, that the H&M now PATH couldn't handle any more traffic with its existing plant. As we all know it never happened. Main St-Flushing to Paterson NJ anyone? Does PATH still share track with freights? Any other reason it has to be FRA compatible,,,because it is interstate?
Any other reason it has to be FRA compatible,,,because it is interstate?
I doubt that it being interstate has anything to do with FRA regulations, although I could be wrong about that. The Washington Metro and PATCO are both interstate, and I don't believe either falls into FRA jurisdiction. Also, the St. Louis light rail system goes into Illinois, and Cincinnati is planning a light rail line that will cross into northern Kentucky.
I agree that the NYCTA should be allowed to extend beyond the city limits, or even beyond the state line. Metro North goes to Conneticut, doesn't it? There's no reason arbitrary political boundaries or "turf wars" should preclude the greater public good.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Washington Metro and PATCO are both interstate, and I don't believe either falls into FRA jurisdiction.
PATCO has an FRA wavier. I don't know about Washington Metro. However it is interesting to observe that both PATCO and Washington Metro has some kind of positive train control system -- not PATH, only cab signals. Although I think the real reason why FRA didn't bother PATCO is because PATCO has never, ever been a railroad (most of it don't even run on a former RR RoW) whilst the Washington Metro is probably sufficiently politically connected to tell FRA to go stick it you know where.
I think that FRA will probably let go of PATH if PATH voluntarily installed some kind of PTC or ATC, but this makes it incompatible with NYCTA anyway.
PATH really is a special case. Despite PATH no longer sharing tracks with railroads, everything PATH has is still railroad-sized. PATH runs alongside railroad trackage (just like the Washington Metro) but with no "physical" separation, i.e. no barriers between the RoW's so that if a PATH car derails it can easily get runover by a train. This is not to say that the "physical" separation in Washington Metro is in any way substantial (in most cases it was just a metal wire mesh fence that is no defense against a derailing freight train) but at least it is there. PATH also has tunnels that are railroad sized, meaning any collision in the tunnel could have very serious consequences (Moorgate accident London 1975). I think there are good reasons why FRA thinks PATH needs Federal oversight. Personally, I think if PATH were ever to be rebuilt, it should be built to railroad gauge and become a real Trans-Hudson connexion which happens to allow FRA-compliant transit cars to use it, rather than as a transit-tunnel that happen to have some railroad features. Obviously the clearances under the WTC would not allow real railroad cars down there, but a by-pass can be built on the NY side to allow freight trains to surface perhaps onto the West Side lines. There was talk of a third rail Trans-Hundson pax connexion; there was talk of shutting down the barge operations across the Hudson and replacing it with a freight tunnel. You can do both just by going fully FRA with PATH.
AEM7
PATCO has never, ever been a railroad (most of it don't even run on a former RR RoW)
Most of PATCO (from just east of where it emerges from underground near the Broadway station all the way to Lindenwold) is on the ROW of the West Jersey and Seashore, subsequently PRR and then PRSL. My grandfather and aunts lived next to the PRSL in Collingswood and I saw many a steam engine hauling passenger trains to and from the Jersey shore on the ROW that is now PATCO. Later, during the Budd RDC and Baldwin diesel days, my family lived in Collingswood and I played on near the tracks from 1950 to 1955.
I think it has something to do with the fact that PATH operates some trackage which crosses railroad tracks as it gets closer to Newark.
PATH has tried to get a waiver from the FRA since the phyiscal connection to a RR has been removed but the FRA won't let go.
They were/are FRA because of the connection to Penn RR/NEC or whatever you want to call it.
Back in the "old" days of the Hudson & Manhattan, the Penn RR ran "joint service" from Newark to Journal Square.
As an aside, when the H&M went bankrupt, it originally filed as a railroad under Section 77 of the Bankruptcy Act. The judge decided that it was NOT a railroad, and it then had to refile as a regular corporation.
I want to thank you all for the many edifying responses on this matter. I guess the bottom line is the FRA wisn't giving up on the long dead relationship with the Pennsy.Thought I'd drop a few other thoughts to tie this up: The Chicago el on the outer end of Lake St. run on ex-CNW embankment, should say half of it,with present day UP freights running neck and neck; their Midway line likewise has freights for neighbors. Metro North in Connecticut: I could be wrong but isn't the Connecticut portion managed by CONN-DOT..maybe it isn't anymore? The Lindenwold line on ex PRSL track: yes; once upon a time Reading and Pennsy both had trains on it, nd at one time they had electric MU's too...would swear I've seen pix of them. More: I read that the IRT was organized as a railroad corporation originally, which I'd have to say in reality if not legally rail transit is a RR. In those days the Long Island and BRT ran joint service to Rockaway as many of you already know; it was ended in WWI when the USRA took over the RR's, I'd guess that was he period thaturban rail transit was divorced from common carrier rail and whatever [then ICC] regs grew and grew didn't apply to rail transit on city lines. Then here was inrecent years the case of the Livingston Rebuild Center which had been the NP//BN main shops. It was set up as a separate corp. when Washington Corps. took over the now-MRL and the shops both.Top management wanted to get the shops out of the RR Retirement System to save money, in effect LRC is a contract shop, not a railroad shop.But thecourts ruled that since most of LRC work was for Montana Rail Link and right on line it was a RR shop. Guess they interpret laws as they please; so Dennis Washington sold the shop to his brother in law, presto no more railroad retirement payments. It is now owned by Talgo.Having worked on both rapid transit and frieght railroads I ca tell you there is lot more involved in tests, ispections, personnel requirements ad infinitum if you're under the FRA; I won't finish putting you to sleep with all of it, butlife would be a lot simpler for PATH and similar lines if they got FRA waivers. Thanks again!Hope you'll enjoy some of this info.
Alot of artists concider Train Grafitti, for it takes alot of time to do a train with the amount of details that some of the grafitti artists did. Then we go back here and say that it is nasty, it made the subway dangerous and ugly, disgusting. So should train grafitti be remembered as an art, or as an annoyance? This is interesting because there are strong arguments on both side of the issue. I think it should be eventhough I am a huge subway buff, some of it I must admit is very cool, eventhough it shouldnt be there in the first place.
I think that it should be remembered as both. Some of the exterior pieces were an absolute work of art, but most of it was just plain junk.
Maybe they should save a redbird as a graffiti exhibit.
It's my belief, and I'm sure it is valued by a majority of people, that grafitti is a horrible scourge that was inflicted upon the New York City subway system. It cost the city tax payers billions of dollars to eradicate this disgusting "form of self-expression" from the system. The individuals that were (are) responsible for the damage incurred aren't even tax paying citizens; they are themselves another scourge placed upon the city because the majority of the miscreants are welfare recipients. If the liberals think that grafitti is an art form maybe they should allow the "artists" to use the walls of their houses in Larchmont as canvasses. I worked for the TA during the darkest days of grafitti in the mid to late '70s and let me tell you it created the highest degree of depression and literally struck fear into the hearts of the passengers. It sent a message to the residents of the city that City Hall was helpless to defend the citizens against the criminal atmosphere.
In response to that, a lot of people don't like graffiti..They feel it is a sign of a distressed area that looks "disgusting" and causes damage. However, I feel that Van Gogh's work was pretty disgusting at best..Just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's not art. Can't graffiti be hated by the majority and remain art? Nevermind the fact it damaged property; other forms of art can damage property as well. (Take those cows from a few summers back for example.) bklynsubwaybob or anyone else, go out and try to do a quick throw up, or even an amateurish tag. I bet you couldn't make either one look even half decent. If something takes talent, in this case artistic talent, I think it should be considered art, regardless of what it damages and how many people despise it. By the way, I'm not liberal in the very least (a dedicated republican), and still hold this opinion. I'm not saying graffiti is right, but merely stating that no matter how "bad" it may seem, it is still a form of art. (PS - food for thought: if you draw a detailed animal on a blank page of a textbook owned by the school, is it still art?)
PS - food for thought: if you draw a detailed animal on a blank page of a textbook owned by the school, is it still art?)
It doesn't matter if this "art" is vandalizing a textbook or a building or a subway train. It is vandalism. Graffiti as an artform can be considered art only when it is put on a place where it is NOT destroying or defacing SOMEONE ELSE'S property. If someone wants to graffiti their own home or property, or if permission is given on someone else's property, then maybe it can be considered art, and yes some pieces are very interesting and a lot of work. But it is wrong to destroy or deface other people's property. I would say it's vandalism even if a landscape mural was painted on a train, if permission was not granted to do that, no matter how beautiful the mural may be.
The same is true with your "textbook" example. If someone wants to draw on their personal book, and not the property of the school, yes you can consider it art. But if a person does not own the item or has no permission on someone else's, it is vandalism.
No. You didn't bother to read mruffalo's post. It can still be art even if it is vandalism. If you don't like it, that doesn't mean it isn't art. Whether or not the canvas was used legally doesn't change whether or not it is art.
I did read his post, but I don't agree. I would even consider a piece painted by Leonardo da Vinci himself painted without permission on a subway car vandalism. Don't get me wrong, some of the pieces on the cars took a lot of talent and are quite attractive, however it is still vandalism when it is destroying property
You didn't read my post either. In my post I specifically said that vandalism and art not mutually exclusive.
I DID read your post, but my opinion is that I don't agree with that. That's why I gave the Leonardo analogy.
Whether or not you agree with what I said is immaterial, I was giving the definitions of the word. I gave out fact, not opinion, which has to be refuted and not just disagreed with.
You can say that there is never a situation in which graffiti is art, and you're entitled to that, but you can not say that graffiti will not be art just because it's graffiti.
If you feel the canvas detracts from the work, than that's fine.
Beauty is still in the eye of the beholder. Whether or not it is art is also inmaterial......it still doesn't belong on the trains or public property. It's still vandalism, whether or not anyone believes it is or is not art, it still defaces property when the owner doesn't want it there. It doesn't matter if it's "art". Just because someone believes it is or is not art does not give that person the right to deface someone else's property (or public property)
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I'm not an artist and I don't try to pass myself off as one. The only real issue here remains that "Public Property" is not a canvas for reckless "artists" to persue their painting abilities. You refer to Van Gogh's paintings and make a feeble attempt to compare his work with that of a subway graffiti vandal. I'm sure Van Gogh didn't go through his neighborhood tacking his handywork on other villager's property. I don't care how good you think some of the graffiti is it has no place in the subway system. I remember having to make put-ins back in the '70s (if you're not aware of what that is it is making up a train for service) and encountering train after train that was layed up on the express tracks and completely covered with graffite. I mean all windows including the C/R and M/M vision glasses. We would have to attempt to clean up the train. Ultimately a high percentage of put-ins never made it into service inconviencing thousands upon thousands of passengers every day. Do you have any idea how many improvements could have been made to the subway system with the billions of dollars that the TA was forced to use to eliminate the damage. Freedom of expression is one thing but when the lives of passengers and crew alike are compromised that's when I draw the line.
Well Bob I was there too . I don't think the other guys condoned it, just brought out that it was art, soe exteriors would have been masterpieces someplace else ut not on public nor private property. And it was a scourge on he trains, in parks, schools you name it. I feel exactly the way you do other than admitting SOME was art.The interiors were the biggest nightmare; but this was the tip of the vandalism iceberg as we both know not to mention the harassment a lot of hoodlums visited on innocent passengers [and drove a lot of customers away].I found it interesting that the LIRR didn't have that problem what with yards in Jamaica and the Chicago system had virtually none when i was there in 1977. A terrible administration turned NYC over to hoodlums in the late 60's and by the mid 70's the city was out of control. That's why I got my butt out, even the job with the TA was depressing because of it. Lucky my gamble paid off and I went to work on the RR in Montana [fighting a nepotistic system to do so]. You were a better man than I was for staying with it.Best wishes, Ed
It's a crime. It's a desecration of public property. It is NOT art when it's scrawled on a subway car. Reguardless of what some misdirected individuals thing & say, train grafitti is NOT art.
It is NOT art when it's scrawled on a subway car.
Where it appears does not change whether or not it is art.
Something can be both art and vandalism at the same time. Doesn't make it right, but the words do NOT conflict with one another.
That's pure BS.
Maybe we should ask the question in this way: Would the same painting be art if it were on a canvas in a studio instead of on a subway car?
Mark
In that context, it could be perceived as art. IMHO, I wouldn't call it art under any circumstances. But on canvas, if you want to consider it art, be my guest.
Now THAT is pure BS.
No, of course not. Well over 99% of the graffiti that graced our subway system was scribble, not art.
Train graffiti should be remembered as a weed.
A weed may be a perfectly good plant, but it's in an inappropriate place. A rose bush in a corn field is a weed.
Any individual work of graffiti may or may not have artistic merit, but it's in the wrong place.
I couldn't agree more. A weed is just a plant that is out of place. The same may be true for graffiti. It may or may not be art, but it's definitly out of place on public property.
That's a beautiful metaphor. A rose bush may be beautiful, but it has no place in a corn field.
In the case of subway graffiti, the corn field had a few rose bushes, but it was inundated with ugly traditional weeds.
That's a beautiful metaphor. A rose bush may be beautiful, but it. In the case of subway graffiti, the corn field had a few rose bushes, but it was inundated with ugly traditional weeds.
Now that I agree with. Unfortunately most of the graffiti was just scribble, and that may have biased people against all graffiti (even the attactive graffiti)
It WILL be remembered, not matter HOW it's remembered...like lots of history, BECAUSE it's human history, different sides will have different opinions on it.
That's the beauty of history, it depends on who is writing the book.
One book will say "art", another will say "garbage", mine will simply say that it existed, and it was what it was.
Most people remember subway graffiti as a sign that the subway system was falling apart at the seams. Unfortunately the graffiti reached the point where it was out of control that it wasn't even a form of art, but a form of vandalism. If the graffiti was done under supervision and of course rules would have to apply, it might have been a form of art. If it was permitted, no one can spray paint the windows or the interior. Plus you cannot spray paint the ends of the cars. You can only spray paint the portion of the car from the bottom to just below the windowsills
Graffiti no matter how controlled or managed still is an eyesore period. I never enjoyed it as a teenager and still don't. Art not even close maybe as an art form on canvas but on public property is still a major annoyance..
The problem with the subway garffiti was that it got out of hand and became an eyesore. At the same time the subway wasn't being maintained properly and the out of control graffiti only conveyed that feeling that things were out of control at the time.
#3 West End Jeff
The only reason you consider that graffiti in general might be art is because you look at the pictures of the well done works. Obviously, the nice ones are going to be photographed more that the bad ones. The less than 1% of graffiti that may have been pleasing isn't worth the horror of the remaining 99%. It's something that should certainly be remembered as an annoyance.
It was disgusting and repulsive. That's how I remember it.
I think it was a sign of two problems:
One, the city wasn't able to control its subway system, and I'm sure that made people feel unsafe. If the city can't stop grafittists, how can it stop muggers?
Two, it tells me that there was a lack of more apporpriate ways for kids to express themselves, and a lack of affordable ways for kids to have fun. I think better art programs in the schools might be a good way to get those grafittists who do have talent to express themselves in more constructive ways.
Now if I owned a building in a rough neighborhood, I'd find the best grafittist in the neighborhood, and hire that person to decorate my building. That way I'd make sure I only had good grafitti on it! :)
Mark
When I was young, the grafittied stations frightened me more than the trains.
I remember my Urban Studies professor once describing the grafittied stations as a "funhouse of horrors" with "evil clowns" ready to come right off the walls to pounce on you.
Check out the movie "The Warriors" or the opening credits of the tv show "The Equalizer". They both have scenes of those "funhouse of horrors"
-Alex V.
First, I just want to say how thrilled I am to see SubTalk back in action!
Anywho...
I was in Philadelphia this past weekend (right next to Reading Terminal...but didn't get a chance to go in -- RATS!)
While looking through the various "things to do" fliers, I noticed that there is going to be some sort of a "Walking Tour" of the 3 big train stations (PRR 30th St, PRR Suburban, and Reading Terminal) in November (the exact date escapes me at the moment).
I was thinking maybe I'd make a weekend of it and take the tour. If anyone is interested in making a sort of "SubTalkers Field Trip", e-mail me offline and we'll see if we can't put something together.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I was in Philadelphia this past weekend (right next to Reading Terminal...but didn't get a chance to go in -- RATS!)
This mural is one of the things you missed by not going in!
Wow. Great Mural! I don't recall it.
I neglected to mention in my original post that the last time I was in Reading Terminal was getting off a West Trenton Line NJ Transit/Septa train back in...in...I forget...while I wasn't going there to see him, it was the same day that Pope John Paul II was there last...when was that? 1980, maybe?
I remember thinking "what a cool station, and what a shame it's a stub end terminal..."
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The mural was installed after the commuter tunnel replaced Reading Terminal. It's not a stub end terminal any more. It's not a train station any more, but it is the western entrance to the Market East station.
On Saturday (6/08/2002) while I was Operating my G train, I had a boy no more then 5 or 6 years old looking thought my cab door. I keep the door open a little bit to get some air into the cab The boy was so happy to see me moving the controller back and forth. I know that he did not know what I was doing, all he new was that I moving this stick a the train was moving and stopping somehow. He was so happy that he was calling to mother to come see it.
This brought back my childhood memories from the late 70's to early 80's. I now 29 so it is not that long ago. Since I was to small to look out the front window, I remember looking though the opening of the cab and seeing a man(most of the time. They keep there door open like this to get the air thought the cab since there were very few car with A/C. I remember see him moving two handles. I know that somehow when he moved one handle it made the train move, and when he moved the other the train stop.
As I got older and was able to understand how the train actually work, I became more and more into train. I use to leave after school and ride the train (had a free Combo. pass) just to get away from everything. I use to go out to the Rockaways or up to the Bronx, any were a train could take me.
I was called a Train Buff in school car for T/O, I was never call that before, but I guess It was right for me. My wife always said that I am in my dream jobs being a T/O, and maybe she right to. All I know it that I am happier the when I was a B/O, and I thank the memories for helping become what I am now.
Dose anyone else have memories like this from there childhood, and are willing to posted them here fell free.
Thank for your time.
Robert
Verrry interesting!!!! When I was a boy, I used to look out the window at the signals and wondered how it all worked. I was never a buff, I didn't have a father about to teach me or keep up my interest. So many years ago...so many years of struggling alone...and now...the best work with the best crew. Now, I not only know how it all works but put in my little contribution to keep our city alive...I not only MAKE TRAINS GO but really take the time to speak to other TA employees to remind them, no matter how futile their assignments may be, that this TA WORK IS EXCELLENT WORK! PS: A big thanks to the instructors at 'SubSchool.' Just finished two days of EPA refrigerant certification training and I'm pretty confident that I passed the testing the first time. We do our best, we give the Lord the Grace and we keep on going. Nine months on the job...twenty four years to go...I'm 48. CI peter
That reminds me of my weekend subway trip. I hadn't been on the subway in a while, and the opportunity came up to use the "railfan" window. At the "railfan" window I was really enjoying my trip, and after a few stations, A group of small kids (barely high enough to see out the window), came running into the first car and were trying to see out the front. So, I thought to myself, "Oh well" and I walked away. They were so excited and jumping up and down at the window.
So, my point is that I probably made their day. I know how I loved to do that when I was younger, and their excitement was worth my loss......(Even though I thought to myself, "Damn, I was really enjoying that! It's been a long time!)
Those R-68's can really pick up speed on the W Line between Pacific St. and 36 St., it's nothing but straight track, they must be hitting 45-50 mph in that stretch, How many of you Agree?
It's not completely straight... there's a curve at Prospect Ave and a slight merge just south of Union St. Also NB trains go a lot faster than SB.
Well, it sure doesn't feel like there's any curves at all, I'm surprise that the speeds that the train is doing, it wouldn't derail on a curve.
Whoever rides on that stretch, why do they slow the trains down at 25th going south and Union going north.
I have ridden that Train plenty of times on that stretch and have never noticed any slowing down, unless were stopping at a station.
There is slowing down at Union St on a NB train but not on southbound. I don't know why but they do for some reason. Theres a curve but it's only about 135 degrees obtuse.
Well I don't know about the curves and all, but I think the speed is incredible
After the curve at Prospect, the acceleration really starts. Then as someone mentioned, the braking starts either at Union or 9th depending on traffic I guess.
There are timer between 9st and Pacfic St. North bound Express. They start at 35mph and goes down to 25mph. They put these in to slow the train into Pacfic St. This is down because the Homeball is sow close the the end of the platform, They figure that is they slow the train down that the T/O wont hit it because of to much speed. The same thing goes for South Bound Express entering 36st. The train must slow down becouse of time around 25st. The Homeball is right past the 10 car mark of the station, and there is a punch there as will. This is one of the station that I come up short on perpos. I know that my C/R is still on the board so I give him a Buzz and get off the train to hit the punch.
Robert
There are timers into Pacfic Street 35mph to 25 mph b/c the homeball is close to the end of the platfom.
I guess riding the W you can't see it them, no railfan window. Try riding the N next time.
I have to ride the W Train to Bay Pkwy., so I couldn't take the N, but it doesn't hurt to try.
Going southbound, the fatsest point is between Prospect and 25 St, where trains seem to top out at 38mph. Having attained this speed, they are now beset with GT signals to bring the speed down to 25 entering 36 St.
Heading northbound, the fastest point is at the left hand curve after Prospect. The fastest I've ever gotten any train to read was 51 - usually it's around 48. Again, as you reach this speed, you enter the realm of Gt signals to bring you down to about 25 entering Pacific St.
The train passes 25 st, goes up an incline to Prospect ave. Slight curve to left. Straightaway flying downhill past 9 St. Just before Union St, another curve to the left. Past Union St, there are GT slowing the train down to 25 MPH.
JDL
From exprience riding the B Train(pre July 2001), the R68's usually hit 40-41 mph on the stretch from Pacific to 36th Street (which isn't all that straight, and has a couple of curves).
Tony
I saw the speedometer hit about 50 mph in that stretch, I saw it in the Motorman's Cab
Yeah but a Slant R40 or R32 N does even better!
I think that the R-68As are faster than the R-68s. Also the R-68As generally do not make high pitched squealing noises.
#3 West End Jeff
I realize there is some sort of danger in crossing between cars on 75 footers around curves, but what exactly is the danger? Ive read postings claiming that you could be crushed, but I dont see how this could happen. Any fellow Subtalkers wanna enlighten me?
Thanks
I was the one that started the Subject "75' Car" about a week 1/2 ago, and they were saying since each car is so long that when passing through you can be crushed, since the cars are so long, the cars make sharper turns and you can be in danger passing through, Am I Correct?
I think the MTA needs to Articulate the Middle of each Car, to make it safer.
What exactly do you mean by "articulate"?
- Lyle Goldman
If you look in the Middle of a Amtrak Acela Express Trainset, you can see that they have a Accordion-like Articulate Stretch between them so the passengers can be safe. They also have the system on the LIRR M-1's & M-3's, they are Articulate between the Married Pairs of the Cars.
That has nothing to do with "articulation". DTypes were articulated (I hope I'm spelling this right) as they SHARED A TRUCK between cars.
Just enclosing the space between anti-climbers with rubber walls ain't going to do anything. The anti-climber on tight curves will still get you, rubber or no rubber.
(I sound like a planned parenthood commercial).
DTypes were articulated (I hope I'm spelling this right) as they SHARED A TRUCK between cars.
Absolutely correctly spelt. Now why doesn't the MTA get cars with shared trucks any more? They seem to like 5 car units, but seem unwilling to go that little bit extra and do a Triplex.
Last I heard, the London Underground is considering articulation as a way to increase passenger capacity on Tube trains. I think it's a good idea. (I suppose the only alternative would be to re-bore all their tunnels to fit larger trains... Not bloody likely.)
I'm also in favor of articulation for the CTA... As of now, the CTA uses tiny 48' cars in married pairs that go around very tight curves. They tried their own version of a Triplex (the 5000 series) some years ago, but it was only a prototype and never caught on. I guess the biggest concerns were maintenance-related, as it takes much more work to change the trucks on an articulated train than with a normal railcar. Apparently IRM's Electroliner is a real bitch to work on for this reason.
NYCTA may have different circumstances... How much effort would it take to change the truck on, say, a middle car of a five-car set as opposed to a modern-day version of a Triplex?
I think articulation would make less sense on the BMT/IND lines, as those railcars are already about as big as they come in terms of rapid transit. Any extra capacity gained would be a drop in the bucket, and I don't think the MTA would order articulated cars just so that railfans can cross from one car to the next. It looks like they're going for 67' cars anyway, which sort of makes the whole issue a moot point. I think the IRT would be a much better candidate for articulated cars, as it has much tighter clearances and a much more acute capacity crunch.
Another application where articulation makes much more sense is on high-speed trains such as the French TGV. All TGV train are articulated, which greatly increases their overall stiffness and prevents "jacknifing" of railcars in a derailment. I think articulation has been a huge factor on the TGV's excellent safety record, which actually includes a couple of derailments at high speed. I was surprised that Acela didn't incorporate similar features, but again, this is Amtrak and the FRA we're talking about. Better to build trains like Sherman tanks to survive a horrible wreck, rather than prevent the horrible wreck in the first place.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Last I heard, the London Underground is considering articulation as a way to increase passenger capacity on Tube trains. I think it's a good idea. (I suppose the only alternative would be to re-bore all their tunnels to fit larger trains... Not bloody likely.)
Which Line(s) were they considering this for? Presumably at least one of the Central Line and the Northern Line. The annoying thing is rolling stock in London tends to be specific to a line as the Central line has really small bore tunnels, the Bakerloo, Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria are slightly bigger and I understand the rest to be large.
CTA uses tiny 48' cars
That's nothing - Transpole (Lille, France) uses 2 car trains of 42'8" long cars. (They're only 6'7" wide too). As discussed before, shorter cars give a better ride - articulation would eliminate the space loss of smaller cars - so the IRT could definitely use it. The IND could do with it in places (think Queens Express) - the best thing for those B Division Lines in my opinion would be 3 car articulated units, with 40' long cars, operating in groups of 5 (or 4 on the Eastern Division).
All TGV train are articulated, which greatly increases their overall stiffness and prevents "jacknifing" of railcars in a derailment.
Thames Trains, Great Western, WAGN, and GNER (British companies involved in recent accidents) could do with that information too.
Which Line(s) were they considering this for? Presumably at least one of the Central Line and the Northern Line.
I'm not sure which exact line(s)... I don't even quite remember where I heard that info, although I seem to recall it being either a press release on the Tube's website, or an article in a London newspaper about a year or so ago.
The annoying thing is rolling stock in London tends to be specific to a line as the Central line has really small bore tunnels, the Bakerloo, Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria are slightly bigger and I understand the rest to be large.
Sounds like the situation in Boston... Four different lines, and four different specifications of rolling stock.
Transpole (Lille, France) uses 2 car trains of 42'8" long cars. (They're only 6'7" wide too).
Yikes, I'd go nuts riding those things. CTA, IRT and Tube trains are claustrophobic enough for me.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yikes, I'd go nuts riding those things.
It does give the feeling of riding a fast underground trolley, but at least it's ATO so you get a view... ah, the French were always good at slightly eccentric technology. Did I mention that the Lille Métro trains have both steel and rubber wheels?
They're already using articulation on the DLR (Docklands), pretty strange looking vehicles, with dizzy curves, some look to be no more than 200 foot radius, if that.
There indeed was talk of a "space train", which would be a segmented/articulated type train with no doors between the units, this was supposed to go on the Victoria Line, which has no curve less than 30 chains radius. All the other tube lines have really tight curves in spots (The Bakerloo is positively serpentine and there's a bunch of painful curves on the Piccadilly line between South Kensington and Knightsbridge)
I believe the next big rolling stock project for LUL would be the refurbishment of the D78 stock, which is beginning to look rather ratty on the outside and looks positively quaint on the inside. Very very 70s.
wayne
Look at those 60 foot busses they use on some crosstown routes (like the M79 and M86) and in the Bronx, they have an accordion thingy in the middle. Those are articulated buses, because to articulate is to unify by creating joints.
Any connection between cars is an articulation, whether by simple coupler or a rubbery tube.
What Acela should have said is that they have to cut the 75' foot cars in half and use accordion-style connections to relink them (A better solution would be to make 150' cars with two joints).
The extreme portions of the 75' train will go in more extreme positions. An train taking a hard right turn will see the left corners stick out farther than 60' trains and the center sticking in more. So since the farther the end sticks out, the more misaligned it will be with the next car. If you have free time, head out to W and go Coney Island-bound and stand at the end doors inside after you leave 36 Street. The track is zig zag and if anyone was in there, they wouldn't survive. It's jerky and the next step is into the windshield of the other.
I agree 100% with R68A-5200, after leaving 36 St. Station, there is a very, very sharp turn, nobody would be able to survive that.
Well, Clearly there is more to it than the turning radius.
On the older cars (Gash... Calling an R-32 an 'older car', I rembmeber when they were new!) you could stand on the footplate outside of the doorway forever, because there was about 18" betwen the storm door itself and the edge of the anti-climbers. No way you could get crushed there, because the next car also had that same 18"!
You could hold a teaparty in there and never mind about how sharp the curves are.
But these newer cars have the doors flush with the end of the car. "Looks better that way" *thay* say! Well *that* is the bigger part of the problem. Another issue is that the cars are coupled more closely together. There used to be a much wider air gap between the older cars. Remember... The conductor used to ride between the cars!
(Shhh.... don't tell them, but *I* did it too! Loved those R9s!)
Finally there is the length. The length is an issue because of the swing. If you were doing a simple curve, the inside would not be wide enough for someone to be between the cars, but the doorway is not the place that comes together. The real broblem is in double curves, such as switching from one track to the next.
Stand at a midtrain storm door, and look forward into the car ahead of you. first the door is right in front of you, then it swings way over to the right, and then in the next moment it is all the way over to the left.
Hey! it is even more obvious if you watch my 85' cars going across the double crossovers on my layout. If you were trying to change cars then, well.... can you say "12-9"
So...
1) No extra footplate between the storm door and the anti-climber
2) Cars coupled more closely together
3) Abrupt side to side movements when switching.
Elias
> No extra footplate between the storm door and the anti-climber
> Cars coupled more closely together
Why did they do it like that? They should have accomodated for safe walking between cars.
- Lyle Goldman
The open area on the side of the car would have to be much larger, this would waste usable area inside the car. Also, if passing between cars on a curve, the turning action is much more likely to trip you up.
You really shouldn't pass between cars while the train is moving, anyway. I never do.
- Lyle Goldman
Why they did it was probably for looks.
Remember on the R1-9s & the R10 the conductor rode between the cars.
The needed space there for him. (In those days there were no she conductors). The cars coupled further apart, the storm door was recessed, and their was plenty of space between the storm door and the anticlimber.
This same car profile was continued right up to the R38.
The R-40 placed a gigantic front porch between the cars, but seems to have tightened up the connection at the intra-pair connection.
You could have parked a porche on the porch!
But it did look rather ugly (those wide gaps between the sets....
and so they reacted to it (or so it would seem to those of us who are left to speculate without facts) by eliminating all extra space.
The R-40Ms used the LIRR (M1) pattern of having the storm door flush with the front profile of the car. For the 60' cars this was not yet a problem, but with the 75' cars, the overswing was too much to permit safe passage between the cars of a moving train.
The LIRR (with 85' cars) gets away with it because they do not have the curves that the subways have, and I suspect that their trucks are also closer to the ends of the cars than they are on the subway.
The closer to the end of the car, the less your overswing is going to be, until you get to the point were the two cars are sharing a common truck (what we really mean when we say an 'articulated' trainset)where there will be no overswing what so ever, and a car wide accordian joint may be employed.
Elias
>>>The needed space there for him. (In those days there were no she conductors).<<<
UMM...I don't think so. The first woman subway train conductor was I.A. Lilly, who began work on Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company cars on December 28, 1917.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>The R-40Ms used the LIRR (M1) pattern of having the storm door flush with the front profile of the car. <<<
R-40Ms storm doors are not flush they are recessed.
SEE HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh how I wish they still had the blue paint!
Yes, and that bit of black paint around the T/Os window and the destination sign. They were soooo much better looking than they are now.
Peace,
ANDEE
And after the rebuild they made the storm door window much smaller and higher.
wayne
They also installed new side door leaves with smaller windows.
Actually, the storm doors are recessed on the R-40M's, R-42's, and even the R-68's and R-68A's. The only cars whose storm doors are flush with the ends are the R-44's and R-46's, and even on those it is only on the ends with the full-width cabs.
- Lyle Goldman
"The closer [the trucks are] to the end of the car, the less your overswing is going to be"
On the other hand, the center of the car will pass farther to the inside of the curve of the track, so pushing trucks to ends of the car doesn't necessarily make it any easier to get the train through the tunnel without scraping the walls.
But wouldnt the center of each car always stay lined up, even around turns, due to the fact that the couplers are below there?
Well, you wouldn't have problems with the centers on turns inside, but since it's longer and wheelbase of these trains were changed, the center and the ends cut deeper in/go farther. Thats why prior to the delivery of the 75 foot cars, some tunnels were shaved to account for this.
Can you say 'overreaction'?
On a 60' car (specifically the R38), the truck centers are 7'9.75" from the end of the anti-climber, and the coupler face is another 1.75" from that. It is 44'7" between the truck centers.
On a 75' car (specifically the R44), the truck centers are 10'4.75" from the end of the anti-climber, and the coupler face is another 1.75" from that. It is 54' between the truck centers.
Just as the tail end of a school bus will swing wide when it makes a turn, the longer the overhang beyond the wheels, the further out it will go from the center of the turning radius.
It won't crush you or kill you, unless you fall. Common sense says watch your step, just as you would crossing between any other cars. The problem is the 'whip effect' from the end moving out of center faster than the car is rounding the curve, which can result in the passenger losing their grip on the handrail.
-Hank
It won't crush you or kill you, unless you fall. Common sense says watch your step, just as you would crossing between any other cars. The problem is the 'whip effect' from the end moving out of center faster than the car is rounding the curve, which can result in the passenger losing their grip on the handrail.
100% agreement, hate when people say crush.
No, that portion will leave you with no space to move. Plus the addition of the swinging, it'll be hard to make it out of there in one piece unless the doors are already opened for you.
You can see the same effect on "R" trains and R68 "N" trains in either direction between City Hall and Cortlandt Street. The effect is especially pronounced southbound entering Cortlandt because they have that little "swing-out" curve as they enter the station.
wayne
I told these guys that last week, but they want to do is to keep this discussion going and going and going. I think some posters ought to spend a little less time posting and a bit more time riding the system. They may find the answers to some of their questions if they do.
Does anyone know how fast a NYC subway train gets in regular service today? Any trackage except for that which goes through the underwater tunnels/tubes counts.
By the way, my guess is the Queens Blvd trackage south/westward from Roosevelt to 21 St or Queens Plz on the E/F. I think it clears 45.
I've been on NB 4/5 trains that have hit the mid to upper 40's on the run from 42nd to 59th street.
Tony
Southbound Broadway Express opposite 50 St -very high 40s to low 50s depending on how much the T/O trusts the timer.
Northbound 4 Ave Express just past Prospect - very high 40s.
It just so happens that I just measured out some streches of track on the TA bus maps (which are geographically correct), went to the schedules, and figured out the average miles per hour (including stops). I used middle of the weekday schedules, to eliminate the slowing effects of rush hour. I'd post the results here, but I have them at work, the internet at home, and I wouldn't know how to put a table in the box in any event.
The point is, these trains are SLOW. The buses are 7.5 miles per hour? Well, local trains are scheduled at 11 to 18 miles per hour; the "expresses" move at 18 to 24.5.
The fastest express? The Flushing Line -- I guess that's why we're replacing the signals. The fastest local? The C on Fulton and the L. Meanwhile, the BMT Broadway Line in Manhattan crawls, both the local and the express. The BMT isn't much better in Brooklyn -- the F local runs almost as fast as the N from 59th to DeKalb.
Comparing the run times of locals and expresses over the same length of track, it appears that the average total delay per station (slow down, stop, dwell speed up) is 35 to 60 seconds, with an average of 45. Rush hour dwells may be lower. Subtracting out that amount of time, and comparing the between station run time to the mileage, one finds virtually all trains going UNDER 30 even BETWEEN stations.
I guess safety is our number one goal. I'd have thought that locals would accelerate to and cruise at 30, expresses at 40, where curves and grades do not require slower speeds. It would seem that either the trains or the signals will not accomodate this.
Well we have the biggest ad most flexible subway system in the world. Safety IS a main priority.
The the SEPTA Market Frankford Line Market El the M4 cars hi 50 between stations. This el is like dating from like 190-something as well! Being a fully balasted roadbed helps thought and the main credit goes to SEPTA no placing any timers on the EL despite a few light grades. Unlike the NYCT-S they trust the track (even jointed!), their equipment and their motorpersons. Compared to the NTCY-S, SEPTA is a paragon of virtue with a clean, efficient and fast system.
Yes, Larry, there is no Rapid in RTO anymore. The big post-1995
slowdown of the system does cost real money, every day. The
car equipment was not designed to be running around with the field
shunt notches disabled. The selection of motor size and gearing
is based on running the motors in the shunted portion of their curves.
The result is several seconds lost for every local station, and
several _minutes_ per station for some long express runs. That
translates into about 10% more equipment (and crews) needed
to maintain the same service levels.
Occasionally, I've had the opportunity to watch the speedometer on a couple of R-40 Q trains in Brooklyn during my commute over the last couple of years, and I've seen them get up to 40-45 between Church Ave & Newkirk Ave.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
How do you see the speedometers through the closed doors? On older cars, you can usually see the speedometers through the door edges, but I've never been able to see them on the R-40 trains that run on the Q Line. At what angle did you look?
- Lyle Goldman
I've seen the 3 hit 47 between 72 and 42 s/b on the broadway express :)
The 3 go that fast? Whenever I get a 3 in there, it seems to go slower than the Redbird 2s that used to run there :-(
i was on the L one time last yeah and we hit 45 MPH From Halsy -> wilson Av it was a R-42
They really pick up in the tunnel
So have I, at 50th St. On one or two occasions, the train kept right on going and didn't slow down until we were almost halfway to Times Square.
Why don't the underwater tunnels count?
- Lyle Goldman
Because everybody's given their take on the fastest speed in tunnels, such as 62 MPH on the N from Qnsbro Plz to Lexington. I'm more interested in going fast and seeing stations fly by as well, and also I'm just curious.
I agree. Speed doesn't mean all that much unless you're blowing past a local stop.
The orange Q from Prospect Park to Kings Highway was quite fast...I think around 40-60 km/hr by the time it hit Courtelyou (Or was it Beverley?) But that was before the closure of the North Side...
-J!
On 16 July 1934, the BMT staged the first run of the Zephyr for the press. According to the article in the following day's New York Times, the train travelled the 5 miles between the 8th Ave station to Stillwell Ave on the Sea Beach line in 7 minutes and hit 53 mph at one point on the trip.
A friend of mine clocked a train at 52 mph along the Rockaway line around 40 years ago. At that time there were half mile markers on all the lines. He measured the time between two such markers.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if that rocket of an A train I took in July of 1969 got up to at least 50 between Howard Beach and Broad Channel. Once we had cleared the bridge, the motorman wrapped it and we were off to the races.
Will NJT be purchasing Bi-Level Cars in the Future?
Will NJT be purchasing Bi-Level Cars in the Future?
Yes.
Today I saw a commercial for Men In Black II, featuring Will Smith (Agent Jay) neuralizing everyone in the front of a damaged subway car in the station. This was part of the train that got chewed up by the alien. The car is number 3674, and Agent Jay said something like, "Hopefully you enjoyed our new more energy efficient subway cars."
You just now seen that commercial???? You're very Late
It's only recently started airing on television; until now it's been a theatrical trailer only. Also, the scene to which Jose is referring is not in said trailer, only in the television commercial.
Dan
Bah. They're making fun of the MTA. :-p
The line is "I hope you enjoyed our smaller, more energy efficient cars" after some Alien bug bites the hell out of a Redbird.
Curious if the bug ate a redbird that what pulls into the station is half of an R32. Ah, Hollywood ... :)
I don't want to spoil the movie, but the alien is actually a rabid foamer just trying to take home a souveneir of part of a reef-fated train.
Did they actually destroy the subway car in order to film the movie?
- Lyle Goldman
Highly unlikely, especially if R-32s are portrayed. OTOH, had they used cars destined for the scrap heap, the TA could have cared less. That's what happened in the Pelham 1-2-3 remake. As bad as that movie was, it did portray the rigging of the train for the getaway much more accurately relative to the novel than the original. If you've read the novel, you know that Longman breaks out the front cab window to join the pipes which connect to the iron weight over the controller. The front window gets busted out in the remake, but since the cars were about to be scrapped anyway, nobody was too concerned about it.
Then you have Sylvester Stallone kicking out that storm door window in Nighthawks. Makes your heart leap up in your throat.
P. S. Did you see the IND-style tile in the MIBII trailer?
Which remake are we talking about - "The Taking of Bloor-Danforth"?
--Mark
That's the one.
They filmed part of that garbage in the Church Ave Lay up mini yard or what have you. I seen it myself, they had an R-32 in there and a flatbed work train that day. T'was quite a while ago.
Oh come to think of it, I've seen a R32 N train about 4-5 yrs ago continuously running back and forth from the SB exp track at Church to lay-up then back, then down again. I'm not sure if this is a coincidence or not. I'm not even sure MIB2 started filming that long ago.
no no no this was i think 2001
If they have, how many more have come in & how many R62A cars are now on the #7 line.
I'm not sure exactly how many train sets are on the 7 now, but I'd say between 4 and 6. Am I close?
4-6? Hmph. Last Friday morning rush hour I rode the #7 from Times Sq. to Hunters Pt. and back to Grand Central. I even waited for a silverbird. No dice.
There are 7 silver 7s. Car #s are 1676-1710 <--5 car sets. and 2111-2155 single cars.
Maybe we'll see car 1969 on the 7 eventually. That would be appropriate...
Just shows you the difference between the Yankees and the Mets, you can memorialize all the Met's World Championships one married pair. To memorialize all the Yankee's World Championships, you need a couple of trainsets!
Yeah, yeah, you'd need 26 cars to represent all the World Series championships the Yankees have won. Of course, they've been around just a little longer than the Mets. Still, the Mets haven't done too badly for an expansion team. As for their recent play, well, what can you say about a team that plays in Flushing?
I dunno, Steve, the Mets are pretty putrid this year, they crapp'd out against the White-Sox again today.
wayne
It was on the 1 two weekends ago with the Livonia Yard stickers. Photo taken at Dyckman Street.
This morning on the 7 at approximately 10 AM, as I was getting off a set of Flushing-bound R-62s at Grand Central, another set of R-62s pulled in on the Times Square-bound platform.
Go figure...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The same occurred at 07:45am this morning as well as going home yesterday at 4:05pm at GCS.
As of this Am, the car maintenance system said that 90 R-62As were officially assigned to Corona Shop. At the same time, Livonia is up to 299 R-62As. Pelham is the big loser - down to 50 units and dropping.
That's always got me puzzled, after the mumbo jumbo chaos on the West Side IRT, the 1 has stretched across to two yards. So VC and Livonia both service the 1? Assuming the 3 lays up in the Lenox Yard...just thinking about this for the first time. I've been noticing less and less single consists of 62A's on the 1 (an occasional set on the 3, not too often though).
Yes, the 1 Line R62s, have both Blue and Red stickers. Also, the 3 also might be able to use 137 Street Yard on the 1 Line too.
No, the 3 line uses Lenox Yard and E. 180St for storage. The 1 line uses both Livonia and 240th Yard for maintenance and 137 Yard for layups. There are transfer of cars between 1 and 3 lines every day so if a trainset from the 3 line need maintenance, then itll go back to the 1 line.
Well Pelham now have the R142a to deal with now.............
As of this AM, the following cars were in passenger service on the L line:
8133-8136 with 8137-8140
8149-8152 with 8153-8156
8109-8112 with 8113-8116
8169-8172 with 8157-8160 ***NEW. I did not see 8161-8164 or 8165-8168.
I did not see any cars testing.
Something I don't remeber reading about-
The R143 are 60' cars. How are they joined, 4-car sets? The BMT Eastern division is limited to eight-car trains, right?
-Hank
(Dazed this evening because I once again need a new front end.)
4 car sets. The entire order is 212 cars.
(Dazed this evening because I once again need a new front end.)
Hank, you gotta remember to use the brakes instead of the bumper when you want to stop :-) Seriously, hope everyone is all right.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, they are linked 4-car sets.
Something else they're doing different with this order is they are NOT rearranging them so that the end cars of the bunch wear the even numbers (all other 4-car sets are so arranged). The low number in the bunch is an end car, as is the high number. Low number is odd, (divisible by 4) PLUS 1. High number is always divisible by 4.
wayne
Cruising the MTA website, it appears that the number one choice really is to spend a couple of extra billions to dig out a third level of Grand Central, then force LIRR riders to travel that much further up to the street. I think this is awful. Just connecting the LIRR in to a share of the existing terminal, and assigning it some of the ticket booths, is considered a less preferred alternatives.
Think about what else that money could buy, and what else won't be built because of it -- even assuming the current adminstrations don't give a damn about those who actually live within the city's borders.
For example, there is a MetroNorth to Penn Station study, but it has as one of its assumptions no significant expenditures on infrastrucure. How do you hook up the Harlem Line in that case? They suggest running a few miles south, over to Yankee Stadium through the existing track, a few miles north, over the Spuyten Duyvil, and then south again. A lot of people would like that service!
For the added cost of the third level at Grand Central, they could probaby build a direct connection. My proposal is to split a line off from the yard north of Woodlawn (from both the New Haven and Harlem Lines), run under E233rd or Woodlawn Cemetary (taking advantage of the rise in grade), run at-grade though Van Cortlandt Park alongside the Major Deegan, single track down the old Putnam Line, and flying junction it over the Hudson Line at Marble Hill and Spuyten Duyvil to the Empire Connection. You'd have about one mile of subway, a couple of miles at grade, and three grade separated junctions to built (Woodlawn, Marble Hill, Spuyten Duyvil). How many of those were built in the past -- 500?
Why gold plate what could be a perfectly good LIRR to Grand Central Connection and give up the opportunity to build something line that?
For the added cost of the third level at Grand Central, they could probaby build a direct connection [between Metro North and Penn Station]. My proposal is to split a line off from the yard north of Woodlawn (from both the New Haven and Harlem Lines), run under E233rd or Woodlawn Cemetary (taking advantage of the rise in grade), run at-grade though Van Cortlandt Park alongside the Major Deegan, single track down the old Putnam Line, and flying junction it over the Hudson Line at Marble Hill and Spuyten Duyvil to the Empire Connection. You'd have about one mile of subway, a couple of miles at grade, and three grade separated junctions to built (Woodlawn, Marble Hill, Spuyten Duyvil). How many of those were built in the past -- 500?
I can just imagine the "destroying Nature" objections to any at-grade service through Van Cortlandt Park. There was a big ruckus 30 years ago when the connection to the 63rd Street Tunnel when through a little corner of Central Park even though it was underground. The fact that the Put ran through VCP decades ago would, of course, be irrelevant to the protestors who'd come out of the woodwork like cockroaches.
There's ample space at Grand Central for LIRR, what is the MTA thinking??
They still feel the need to keep LI commuters seperate from the wealthy Westchesterites. I've always felt LIRR has gotten the short end of the stick compared to Metro North, this just further strengthens this.
It's quite sad, really. NJ Transit riders also have to suffer having pathetic Penn station "hole in the ground" as Manhattan's rail terminal.
I'd rather see MTA give LIRR full access to all tracks at GCT, and the money saved go to building a new Penn station.
I'm not gonna lie, I hate Penn station. It's a noisy, cramped, dirty hole in the ground, while Grand Central is what one expects to see when they enter a big city. GCT is airy, spacious, and has a much better image than Penn.
If we could only go back and have stopped the destruction of the original Penn station. Now we can't even get LIRR into Grand Central, LIRR riders have to be kept seperate from Westchesterites by burying us in the ultra lower level. What are they afraid of? There's more than meets the eye...
>> I'd rather see ...the money saved go to building a new Penn station. I'm not gonna lie, I hate Penn station. <<
Hmm... well, you know, with all the talk of building sports stadia to entice the Olympics (including -- most significantly in this case -- a new Madison Square Garden), I can't figure out why instead of converting the Farley Post Office, they don't just propose to re-build Penn Station where it belongs -- on top of Penn Station.
Call me crazy, but if MSG winds up getting torn down, then (to me) the worst thing that could happen would be to have a non-descript office building go up on that site. At least with MSG, we've been afforded some wonderful alternate sprorts history...
Not to mention the difficulties of maintaining the transfers between the new train station and (especially) the 7th Ave IRT lines...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
How about moving MSG, shock horror, to Madison Square? Then put up a new Penn Station even better than the original. NYC's main railroad station ought not be some dirty hole in the ground, but something truly magnificent.
Hey, I'm all for replacing Penn Station, but to destroy Madison Square park, which is a beautifully kept park is absurd.
MSG never occupied the site of the park.
The difficulty in acquiring real estate in the area for such a facility would be monumental. That's why these things are built in brownfields or over rail yards.
I know, it was adjacent to the park, but I think he was proposing building it ON Madison Square. Any replacement for MSG will have to be over rail yards, it would be hard to aquire that much property anywhere else in Manhattan, and it definitely needs to stay in Manhattan.
I know, it was adjacent to the park, but I think he was proposing building it ON Madison Square.
Nope, I meant on only in the sense of adjacent. The phrase "John Q Public lives on Madison Square" does not imply that the said Mr Public is a bum!
In fact I know it's wholly unrealistic for MSG to return so far downtown. Realistically the next one will probably be in Lenox, 207th or Sunnyside Yard.
Hopefully it would stay in Manhattan.
Extreamly unlikly. It will goto LI or NJ (NY giants?) Penn Station metholgy. Demolish and sell the land and put something there that will generate more revenue.
Y'all got ur C-4? Y'all got your NIMBYs (for moving) and your YIMBYs (for keeping it).
Call me crazy, but if MSG winds up getting torn down, then (to me) the worst thing that could happen would be to have a non-descript office building go up on that site
MSG will be replaced eventually, it's Inevitable. What a shame that would be though that Penn Station would have totally died in vain.
MSG will be replaced eventually, it's Inevitable. What a shame that would be though that Penn Station would have totally died in vain.
When MSG will be replaced, it probably would have stood longer than Penn Station. How is that in vain?
The site will become empty once again, and the real Penn station is still gone, and destroyed for nothing. Wouldn't it have been better to destroy nondescript buildings for MSG than Penn Station? Yes, I know that was a large site, and property aquisition was easier than taking over different city blocks, however the loss of Penn Station is a shame for New York.
Well, it wouldn't be empty. Something else will be built.
Some architect will be called in to build a building on top of the center, but try to make it an homage to the original Penn Station (like using design elements from the building, maintaining an open dome over the concourse and stuff).
Some architect will be called in to build a building on top of the center, but try to make it an homage to the original Penn Station (like using design elements from the building, maintaining an open dome over the concourse and stuff).
Well that would be actually be an asset. As long as they wouldn't make another non-descript office building such as One Penn Plaza. The only thing is though by opening up the public concourse with a dome, in a private building would cause problems. A developer wants to make the most profit from a building. What would make him want to do that? I do like the idea though.
What would make him want to do that?
Zoning
The city telling him to
Some architect will be called in to build a building on top of the center, but try to make it an homage to the original Penn Station (like using design elements from the building, maintaining an open dome over the concourse and stuff).
Well that would be actually be an asset. As long as they wouldn't make another non-descript office building such as One Penn Plaza. The only thing is though by opening up the public concourse with a dome, in a private building would cause problems. A developer wants to make the most profit from a building. What would make him want to do that? I do like the idea though.
I'm not gonna lie, I hate Penn station.
There is NO need to apologize or defend yourself if you say you hate Penn Station!
There is NO need to apologize or defend yourself if you say you hate Penn Station!
Especially when we know what was once there, and senselessly destroyed. I always have to laugh when I see the photos of the "real" Penn Station on some of the columns in the Amtrak waiting room. Yeah that'll make it alright....tear down a great building, and make people look at photos of it.....adding insult to injury.......
I've always felt LIRR has gotten the short end of the stick compared to Metro North, this just further strengthens this.
I don't know if it's just my perception, but I also feel that Metro Morth is much better run than the LIRR. MN's stations are in much better shape and maintained much better than LIRR. I also feel the trains are cleaner. WHy is MN's stations better maintained than LIRR? They are both run under the MTA.
They're both owned by the MTA. Whether or not anybody actually runs them, I'm not sure.
Don't forget that Grand Central was also on the chopping block back in the day. It was saved at the last minute from the wrecking ball. How sad would that have been if NYC was left with no classic railroad stations? The fact that it came so close only to be saved at the last minute by Jackie O. makes it hard to argue that there was some great secret bias in favor of Westchester.
Modernism, back in the day, told us that anything old was bad and should be torn down. Modernism also told us that urbanism was old (and thus bad), and drove people to Levittown and the other Long Island suburbs. Now those same people (or their descendants) must use the ultimate example of modernist urban planning: Penn Station. I find this all rather ironic.
Penn Station is a wretched rabbit warren of a train station shoehorned underneath a concrete slab. It should be replaced as soon as possible,
MATT-2AV
What's funny about Penn Station is even though it's underground, during wet weather it often has water leaks that would make Niagara Falls jealous.
Sounds just like the lower level at Canal Street.
I thought that would be corrected when they renovated the station, but even after the station was renovated,. it still flows like a river
They did try. Sigh.
First you go off complaining about gold-plating, then you go off and decide to come up with your own golden ideas.
Wouldn't it be incredibly eaiser just to rebuild and reconfigure the Port Morris Branch that runs underneath St. Mary's Park?
(Wouldn't it be incredibly eaiser just to rebuild and reconfigure the Port Morris Branch that runs underneath St. Mary's Park?)
The ride would be longer, and the West Side line has more capacity.
"...run under E233rd or Woodlawn Cemetary (taking advantage of the rise in grade), run at-grade though Van Cortlandt Park alongside the Major Deegan,..."
Not to pick nits, but:
1) you will not be able to tunnel underneath an existing cemetary -- you will have to go with the East 233rd option.
2) the grade coming down the Deegan through VCP is awfully steep. I don't know if it is too steep for commuter rail, but it is pretty steep.
MATT-2AV
"1) you will not be able to tunnel underneath an existing cemetary -- you will have to go with the East 233rd option. "
And WHY can't you tunnel under an existing cemetary.
Its not like the NIMBYs are going to *say* anything!
The tunnels will be much deeper than any grave digger is going to go. I mean they just don't dig graves that are 30 or 40 feet deep! There are no utilities in the way, you can tunnel to your hearts content. The cemetary owners would be happy to sell that easment, it will help them to plant grass for a few more generations.
Elias
Sorry, but you just can't.
It's not rational, it's just the way it is. From what I gather, burial grounds of any sort have complete protection from eminent domain and development.
More than one highway has been stopped in its tracks because a burial ground (Native American or other) was discovered in the way.
The courts might be able to accomplish something, and I wouldn't worry about those buried at the cemetery objecting -- I would worry about their survivors who would be more than happy to firestorm any MTA plan.
So in sum, I wouldn't waste any effort contemplating a route underneath the cemetery.
MATT-2AV
A burial ground is very different from a cemetary.
I highway, disturbing the surface is different from a subway built 40 or 50 feet below a the cemetary.
Cemetaries (unlike a burrial ground) is owned by some organization that maintains them, and would likely be willing to sell an easement to the transit authority, especially since all tunneling can be done from under ground and without entering upon or harming their property.
This is entirely different from seasing a ROW by eminent domain.
Elias
Engineering-wise, the Preferred Alternative is solid - avoiding the need to rebuild building foundations and reducing other hassles. Merging Metro-North trains and LIRR traffic could screw up schedules and reduce the quality of service on Metro-North.
Politically, it avoids NIMBY very nicely and addresses the needs of virtually all constituents, including city constituents
The additional lower level at Grand Central will be well-served with elevators and escalators, and no doubt at least one escalator set will go directly to that level - look at Jamaica Center's escalator to the J and Z train for example. Your objection there is without merit - but you already know that.
There are a lot of things which could be done with the money, Larry, and your post contains some interesting ideas, but you completely disconnect them from political realities. If MTA were to follow your advice, then 20 years from now we'd have a full constructed 63rd Street LIRR line in Queens dead-ending at a wall in Manhattan with nothing else accomplished - and people would be throwing darts at your smiling face in Manhattan's bars.
The Preferred Alternative - operationally, engineering-wise, and politically, serves the city and the burbs remarkably well - and in doing so, also gives impetus to Second Av subway development.
Merging Metro-North trains and LIRR traffic could screw up schedules and reduce the quality of service on Metro-North.
Not to mention the problems associated with trying to run trains requiring two different kinds of third rail on the same tracks.
OOooops I forgot about that. MN uses under-running 3rd rail while LIRR uses over-running. In that case I can see why the new LIRR level needs to be installed.
"Not to mention the problems associated with trying to run trains requiring two different kinds of third rail on the same tracks."
Makes no difference.
Genesis Locomotives can run on either kind of third rail.
Elias
Genesis Locomotives can run on either kind of third rail.
Tell me more. Is Genesis dual mode or completely electric? Does it have two different shoes that can be deployed or one that can be adjusted? What percentage of LIRR trains are hauled by Genesis? What percentage of MNCRR trains?
No LIRR trains use the Genesis Locomotive, but AMTRAK does, as does MN. The Third Rail shoes are adjustable, and are also (I believe) retractable. AMTK only uses them in NYP, and thus as over-riding shoes. They *could* use them on the Hudson branch, but I have only seen them running the diesel there. Yes, they are dual mode diesels, and they are the ones that snet the old PL7s (or whatever they were) packing.
Elias
The proper designation for the old locomotivs is FL-9. Third rail pickup shoes are not retractable on any currently operating equipment.
The type used on the LIRR is different from that used on MNCR, and there is no mechanical compatibility between the two. One type would destroy the third rail used by the other. The whiz kids who thought up the scheme to bring LIRR trains into GCT should be able to figure out how to make the trains work through the differences. The things that did in the FL-9 was the fact that they were at the end of their useful lives, had a carbody design that made repairs and general maintenance difficult in comparison to later model locomotives, and the scarcity of spare parts needed to maintain them. There could be other factors, but those come to mind first.
The Genesis Locomotives can operate on either kind of Third Rail.
Elias
I think you confused it with the F-9s that I heard earlyer on this board, are the only that were dual third rail at the same time. Though this wasn't on all of them made and were specific to the builds.
Yes, but that would mean only long distance MNRR trains would get to share with the LIRR.
No, not at all! GCT keeps its existing third rails, and LIRR equipment gets adjustable shoes.
End of problem.
Actually NYC should change cause there are more miles of LIRR/NYSubway third rail installed. But NYC third rails and safer because the top isn't electrified
If LIRR wants to come into *my* station, thwy will have to adjust their shoes to fit my third rails. It doesn't *really* matter that GCT third rails run at 600vdc and LIRR uses 700 vdc.
Elias
well you haveto remember that the R-44s were on LIRR on 700v and then were removed due to voltage problems (accesories burning out)
That can be fixed. Have a LIRR stlye with the underside of the top plastic thing electrified. Also there can be different voltages on the top rail (NYC) and bottom (LIRR).
First of all, there would be no need to merge the trains. You'd just set off a portion of the terminal and yard for the LIRR.
How will LIRR to GCT give impetus to the Second Avenue Subway? The preferred alternative will just absorb that much more of a limited pot of funds. So City subway riders would have it worse. Would anyone care?
The LIRR to GCT is currently under construction, and has been for some time. The Second Avenue is being studies, and is not likely to be built without $10 billion in federal funds. The MTA is mortgaged to the hilt. The Mayor doesn't want any City money going to the Second Avenue. The Governor doesn't want any state money going to the City.
In reality, the best we can hope for is for MetroNorth to be connected to Penn, so that more riders would be diverted away from GCT.
SAS won't be built until someone really important official dies/heart attack/heat stroke from using a car/limo being stuck in Midtown Tunnel/LIE (Muuhhaaa). The fumes add up quick (was on express bus).
Ok, I posted this question orginally in a post in response to Busfan's "SEPTA's Girard Av light rail restoration" post, but looking at that map that Phillytrolley.com has got me thinking, so i'll just assume that at least some people thought that Septa needs more Trolley lines.
Would it be possible for the Rt 56 and Rt 23 trolleys to come back, even if the Rt 23 just ran south from where the Rt 56 trolley intercepts it at Broad Street. This would seem to just take riders from the Broad Street Subway, but it also would offer riders from up by Tacony a one seat ride into the city. So long as the Rt 56 trolleys change to Rt 23 trolleys at Broad street, nobody has to get up, and the trolly heads downtown on the old Rt 23 trolley line.
Also I thought, what if South Street were made a trolley/busway east of Broad Street? Usually this area is packed with cars, just two lines of parked, and one line of moving cars running down the middle of the street. The area is a huge tourist/yuppy/drunken college kid area, and other similar progects in other cities have had moderate success.
Oh well, there's my two ideas, what do you think?
I dont think one belongs on South street--a Bus line already serves it. Part of the mystique of South street is cruising through on a Saturday night in a crowded car full of college buddies. That wouldnt happen anymore if there was some form of busway/transitway.
I think Philadelphia needs more rail transit in general, or at least heavy and light rail. Philly's commuter rail is very good and the bus system is too. But as for rail lines, I think the 23 and 56 woudl be good candidates for restored trolley service, and I think that route 66 would be nice if converted to streetcars, just because Frankford Avenue north of the MFL terminal looks so quaint anyway, a trolley would just complete the look. :) I could say the same for the outer reaches of Germantown Avenue, too, now that I think about it.
I think Philadelphia has a more urgent need for more subway lines, though. I think the Roosevelt subway is a must, as is some kind of heavy rail rapid transit to serve the Schuylkill Expressway corridor (art museum, to zoo, to Manayunk, to Conshohocken, to Norristown) though I'm not sure MetroRail is the best plan. I'd rather see a subway that goes as far as Norristown and commuter service to Reading. But I digress. I also think Germantown needs a subway,too.
I'd also like to see some crosstown light rail rapid transit lines, though this is a pie-in-the-sky dream. I think the City Avenue corridor could use it, and maybe one that serves Cottman avenue. It would terminate at the Tacony R7 station, and manybe connect to my City Avenue line. I'm just dreaming now, but I think its strange that there are no connecting services to the R7 station at Tacony...
Mark
SEPTA has been following the NCL plan for Philadelphia transit - bus, bus, bus. Nothing is immune. Even the TC lines may be in jeopardy.
The ONLY reason 15 is coming back is that the City is pushing it. Look at the record: SEPTA killed 15, 47, 50, 53,56 and 62. Only the Yeadon trackage survived with streetcar service, since 13 took over the 62 trackage.
With the "suspension" of TC service on 59,66 & 75 due to the rebuilding of Bridge St. Terminal and Frankford Depot, only the South Philly TC operation out of Southern remains. Wanna bet all will be deselized before 15 comes back. The TC wires come down.
NCL's plan was to bus everything except the streetcar subway, and their plan was to kill 10 and build a transfer station at the Woodland portal. SEPTA won't go that far, but expect to see only the SS and 15 in the immediate future.
Why does Septa only do buses? They're not National City Lines, they're a public transportation agency which is why I'm having a hard time understanding the desire for buses. It isn't like the upper management who make these kinds of decisions have to work on streetcars or electric buses - any personal dislike for them shouldn't be a factor in decision making.
-Robert King
I didn't say SEPTA was NCL, I said they completed 90% of the NCL plan for PTC. Other than the K cars, the Rapid Transit and the RR side, SEPTA has not been in the electric camp. Other than the subway-surface, no part of the city streetcar system they inherited survived. 6, 15, 47, 50, 53 and 56 - all bused.
As I stated, the ONLY reason 15 is coming back is that the City has been pushing it. SEPTA feels that if they do 15, the City will forget Erie Avenue and Upper Germantown (23 below Erie is not operationaly doable - even the buses get bogged down.)
And, if SEPTA is at all serious about ETB's why is 75% of the current fleet in dead storage at Midvale?
And, If SEPTA was as rail-oriented as some think, why haven't they re-converted Ardmore back to rail? Not one part of any inherited surface rail line has ever been expanded. Not one.
When the R68 & R68A car rollsigns were updated last year, it did include a blue "K" rollsign in it.
I was wonderning if there are plans to bring back the 8th Av "K" train & if so, where will it operate between.
I doubt it, all the K did was provide local service like the C does today. I think that when the K was running, the C only ran rush hours. Now that the C runs more than just rush hours there is no real need for the K.
BTW, what were the old terminals of the old K train from the 80's?
168th Street to Chambers-WTC. The K assumed the role of the AA when the double-letter scheme was dropped in 1985.
168th to WTC, probably the only IND line never to change it's service pattern from introduction (1932) to elimination (1988). About the only changes I can note were the AA-to-K change in 1985 and the elimination of night time operations in 1976.
Well, remember that somewhere along the line the southern terminal changes from Hudson Terminal to World Trade Center.
:-) Andrew
The line didn't run from July 1, 1933 when the Concourse line opened, until December 15, 1940 when the Sixth Avenue line opened.
That's right, the CC ran 24/7 from Hudson Terminal to the Bronx, and the A ran local north of 145th St. I forgot that.
Why should the K train be brought back? From 145 st to 59 St there are the A, B, C and D trains.
Didn't the 'K' used to come over the Williamsburg Bridge from Brooklyn and or Queens and then go Uptown in Manhattan on the IND?
Yes. It ran first from 168th St-Jamaica, later from Broadway Junction over the Willy B, through the Chrystie St connection, then up the 6th Ave local tracks to 57th Street. It only ran during rush hours, which may be one reason why it didn't last very long.
Didn't the 'K' used to come over the Williamsburg Bridge from Brooklyn and or Queens and then go Uptown in Manhattan on the IND?
Yes, there have been two completely different K trains! The first is the one you mention (I think it was actually the KK train), then later on the MTA renamed the AA train to be the K.
The KK debuted on July 1, 1968. It became the K in 1973 when it was cut back to Broadway Junction and discontinued in 1976.
The later K came into being in 1985 when double letters were eliminated. It was dropped when the C began running all day in 1988 or thereabouts. Interstingly enough, the K designation can still be seen on punch boards along the 8th Ave. line.
They should bring it back by combining both of those routes, (at W4) and for evenings and weekends instead of rush.
You are thinking of the original K line (KK, I believe). Yes that did run from the J line to the 6th Ave line. The K in this case was the 80's K that had nothing to do with the Chrystie connection K.
[When the R68 & R68A car rollsigns were updated last year, it did include a blue "K" rollsign in it.]
IIRC, the blue "K" was there when the signs were new. It's cheaper to make allowances early than to go back and change things later. (Just scroll through an R32/R38 route sign; there's a "J-diamond Jamaica/Nassau/Brighton" as well as white-circle P, T, U, X, and Y.)
IIRC, the blue "K" was there when the signs were new.
You didn't read his post. He was talking about the R-68 replacement signs which were installed last year.
So what are the white-circle P, T, U, X, and Y for?
Future expansion most likely.
P- In the 90's, it was proposed for Amtrak strikes, which would curtail LIRR service which uses its tracks into Manhattan. Service would have run from Jamaica (LIRR station at Sutphin) nonstop to 34th St Penn Sta. (Hence, "P") via the J line to Essex, and then via the BJ tracks to Broadway Lafayette, and then the connecting switch at W 4th St. Trains would have continued locally to 168th St. R-32's would have been used, as they and the R-38's are the only trains to have "P" on the roll signs (white bullet, no route), and also the front digital signs. (P also available on R-44/46 digital side signs, with no route or destination)
T- same route as W back in 1967 pre-chrystie connection
U- no scuh thing
X- Never used. It too is in a white bullet on the R-32/38 signs, and can be displayed on the front digital sign. But it is also on the R-44/46 side sign with the destinations "21st St Queensbridge" and "World Trade Center" "via 6th Av.". Years ago, there were ideas to run such a service, but it never came about.
Y- Never used. I heard it was once planned for a Canarsie skip-stop service (before "K" was chosen), but in either case, it never ran. It has also been named as the future 2nd Av. Line (when the full line opens below 63rd. St. The first segment will open above 63rd St., and will be an extension of existing Broadway service, probably the N, Q or W.) Also only on digital signs and R-32/38 signs in a white bullet with no routes or destinations.
go here for more info:
http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/linehistory.html
P was almost used in anticipation of a dreaded Amtrak strike that would have affected LIRR service into Penn Station. A temporary service that would have paralleled the E with fewer stops.
According to the Line by Line History, it would have run on the J/Z/M, through Chrystie then switch at W4 to the 8th Av.
Which would have led to some amusing exchanges:
"How do I get to (fill in the blank)?"
"Take a P against the wall." (rim shot)
"I beg your pardon!"
"What train do I take uptown?"
"Y"
"I just thought I'd ask!"
lol...
I think the Y was proposed as a skip stop train with the L on the Canarsie line.
None of them were proposed for anything. They were just there because it doesn't cost anything more to install the extra letters.
The P proposal for Jamaica-Penn service would have been used only because the letter was already available (see, that kind of thing is why they install letters for which there are no plans).
UMM.to fill space...just MHO.
speaking as one who owns one. (signboard that is)
Peace,
ANDEE
See my handle. The best Route that ever ran!!
There's no need for it. The C already duplicates that route.
Since I started riding in the 1980's, to me the "K" train means 8th Ave. That doesn't mean it has to be there if the letter comes back. I mean, cripes! I stil think the letters B,D,N,Q and R go together!
;-) Andrew
I stil think the letters B,D,N,Q and R go together!
What the...?!? Were the B and D on Broadway for that long? Where was their Northern Terminal when they operated on Broadway - they obviously couldn't go to Washington Heights or the Bronx.
Were the B and D on Broadway for that long?
1985-1988, I believe.
Where was their Northern Terminal when they operated on Broadway - they obviously couldn't go to Washington Heights or the Bronx.
Same as the W and circle Q today. The Broadway B went to Astoria, while the Broadway D terminated, together with the Q, at 57th St/7th Ave. There were also Sixth Ave B and D trains, which had a southern terminal at 34th Street. It was a bit confusing. The reason the Bwy and 6th Ave versions now have seperate letters is to avoid that confusion.
:-) Andrew
There were also Sixth Ave B and D trains, which had a southern terminal at 34th Street
And until February 1988, when the R68A's began showing up, these 2 lines had some of the worst rolling stock in the system, those god-awful pre-overhaul R42's, which had almost no A/C, about a third having no lights and broken doors aplenty. I did enjoy riding those dark R42's on the D as it sped up CPW. The fast passing tunnel lights led to a surreal acid-trip feeling.
From April '86 to December '88, the "yellow" B/D ran on Broadway. The D duplicated today's circle Q, the B todays W. The only differences were that the yellow B ran to Astoria only during rush hours, ending at Queensboro Plaza midddays and 57th/7th on weekends, as well as the D & Q making "skip stops" along the Brighton line due to the suspension of express service.
The K to me is the old AA designation. In fact, the very first 8th Ave. train I ever took was an AA.
I always associate the "AA" with the Museum of Natural History. That's the only time my family ever rode it. One day, when I was 7 or 8, we left the museum late, and I was overjoyed to see a B train stop at 81st St. Even though it was probably an AA train re-signed for B service, I felt I was entering a new world when we got on it!
The AA (later K) route is redundant due to expansion of C service. So no, I think the 8th Ave K, as it was, will not return.
News article:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-06-11/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-153862.asp
Does anyone posting here with the TA know if ADA upgrades will be included at any of these stations?
Passenger Stations
Through 1999, the rehabilitation of approximately one-third of NYC Transit passenger stations serving about half of subway riders have been completed or are in progress. In NYC Transit’s 2000-2004 Capital Program, the station rehabilitation program continues station architectural, structural, and accessibility improvements. The 2000-2004 Capital Program funds 64 station rehabilitations, 52 percent more than the 1995-1999 Capital Program’s 42 rehabilitations. This aggressive schedule is needed to award the remaining station rehabilitations by 2019 at which time the stations rehabilitated earlier will require normal replacement investments. At this pace, rehabilitation will be completed or in progress for almost half of NYC Transit’s 468 stations by 2004.
In concert with the station rehabilitation program, NYC Transit will continue to improve certain station components. Station escalators will begin normal replacement schedules. Escalators with a life expectancy of 12-15 years will be replaced with more durable units expected to last 24 or more years. The new units will have enhancements such as external drives to improve reliability and reduce the amount of time that escalators are out of service for maintenance. NYC Transit’s investment in station elevators is shifting from state-of-good-repair investments to new initiatives to make more stations accessible for customers with special needs or disabilities. The agency plans to install approximately 50 elevators in ADA key stations as part of its commitment to make 100 stations fully accessible by 2020.
*****************************************************************
If this doesn't answer your question then you will have to explore the MTA website more fully on your own.
The question was intended for MTA personnel who periodically post here and may know more than what is posted on the website. Thank you for posting that, however.
Doesn't look like any of the ten stations are ADA. The Bway IRT stations have landmark status so I don't think you can't add elevators. Anyone else have better info?
According to the article, the stations are undergoing "major" renovations. In that case, federal law would require ADA compliance. This would override any landmark status. I'm not very familiar with any of the 10 stations mentioned, but with a creative architect, I believe elevators can be added without compromising the landmark status of a station.
-- David
Chicago, IL
All NYCT stations are being rehabbed, or at least I believe that's the idea. Only "key stations" are being made accessible.
Many stations have narrow island platforms, leaving nowhere to put an elevator without moving tracks all over the place. Aside from that generally being prohibitively expensive, the result would be a new station, not the old landmarked one.
Why ADA stations, you got paratransit? Your paying twice diabilty access. ALSO fuck the federal goverment that the ADA overrides landmark historic ascess.
Paratransit is stupid. It's humiliating and you have to make arrangements a day in advance. With the subway or bus, you can go as you want, whenever you want.
Doesn't look like any of the ten stations are ADA. The Bway IRT stations have landmark status so I don't think you can't add elevators
I don't think Landmark status has anything to do with ADA. I believe ADA is required wheather the station is landmarked or not if it goes through renovation.
Ten stations to be renovated, is that so? Well five will get you ten that none of them will be on the Sea Beach line in Brooklyn. Not that I am surprised by any of this. When it comes to the TA dealing with my train it is just about par for the course.
Relax Fred. In 2005, the N, restored to the bridge, will have a brand new terminal at Stillwell Ave to use!
Yea, that is what you say, but I had also heard that when the work was completed last year the Sea Beach would also be back on the bridge. If my memory serves me well, it is still stuck in the Montague Tunnel. I will believe it when I see it. And even if it happens, five will get you twenty that the stations from 8th Ave. to 86th Street will still look like Berlin in 1945.
With all 4 tracks on the bridge working, the N will run on it. Guaranteed.
OK Chris, I will take your word for it. But I am still a little skeptical.
Who said the N is returning to the Manhattan Bridge, or that the Sea Beach service will be the N? Certainly not NYCT.
David
I did. I know, nothing's been decided officially, but let's be realistic: the N is going back to the bridge when all work is done and all 4 tracks can be used.
The only information we know for certain is that all four bridge tracks are scheduled to return to operation in 2004 (actually, this too can change, but it's information that has been made public). We do not know what routings bridge trains will take in Brooklyn, we do not know what routings bridge trains will take in Manhattan/Queens/Bronx, and we do not know what letter designations those routings will be given. At this point, it's all (entirely, completely, 100%, etc.) conjecture, and to call it anything else is inaccurate, misleading, and if done intentionally, nasty.
David
Why does the MTA have to provide ADA stations if they run the paratransit service. Also what happens when someone sues the MTA because of all the fecal matter/liquid in the elevators?
It's not my idea, it's just the way it is. I understand your point though. The subway is hard to become freindly for handicapped people. If I was handicapped, I would probably forget the subway and take the bus.
THE LIST:
Station (Year of expected contract award)
--------------------------------
Junction Boulevard (2003)
W. 4th Street (2002)
179th Street (2002)
125th Street (Eighth Avenue) (2002)
Euclid Avenue (2002)
168th Street (Eighth Avenue) (2003)
231st Street (2003)
95th Street (2004)
Prospect Park (2000; underway now)
Times Square Complex (2002)
Columbus Circle Complex - Design Only (2002)
233rd Street (White Plains Road) (2002)
Marcy Avenue (2002)
Myrtle-Wyckoff Complex (2003)
Fordham Road (Jerome Avenue) (2003)
Jay Street - Design Only (2003)
34th Street (Seventh Avenue) (2000; underway now)
71st Avenue - Design Only (2003)
Union Turnpike - Design Only (2003)
Lexington Avenue-53rd Street (2001; underway now?-haven't been there lately)
Utica Avenue (Eastern Parkway) (2001; underway now?-haven't been there lately either)
74th Street-Roosevelt Avenue Complex (2002)
Pelham Parkway (White Plains Road) (2002)
96th Street (Broadway) - Design Only (2003/2004)
DeKalb Avenue (Flatbush Avenue) (2001; underway now)
Queens Plaza (2002)
David
They're afraid to tackle Chambers!
One more thing: 179th St's on the list: are they going to do traditional IND tile there and take down/go over the 1950s style tile and that awful blue/orange 1986 sheet metal thingy they have up? I would be interested in seeing their designs.
wayne
I haven't seen any drawings. It should be remembered, however, that we're talking about making the station accessible, not about doing major rehabilitation work.
David
Maybe they've adopted Bob Uecker's approach to catching a knuckleball and applied it to Chambers St. in terms of a rehab.
Uecker said the best way to catch a knuckleball was to wait until the ball stops rolling, then pick it up. The TA will probably wait until Chambers St. collapses onto itself, then renovate it.
Well they are ONLY going to make it ADA. The collaspsed wall on the manhattenbound local track still needs to be fixed. I saw the blue prints when they had a bunch of papers taped to the wall about a hearing and designs.
What the?!? Is Times Square going to be under perpetual renovation forever? Haven't they already been renovating it?
its still going on and who knows how much longer its gonna be untill they're finished.and on a note,from the list of needed station renovations,the one that stands out the most needed is Pelham Parkway on the WPR line.that station looks like it never got changed from the 70's or 80's. and a how come 34th on the 7th Ave line and 168th st on the 8th Ave line need renovating? those stations look relitively a-ok.
i dont see anything wrong with them especially 34th st.
Actually, renovation on 34th Street Station on the Seventh Avenue Line has been progressing for a while and seems to be almost finished. I think all they have left to do now are to add are some elevators.
- Lyle Goldman
I think Pelham Pkwy on the White Plains Road line is the last station to have incandescent light bulbs on the platform ... is this true?
--Mark
No- Several Pelham Line Stations including Middletown road have incandescent on the platform. Pelham Parkweay on the 2 is slated for renovation which means no more incandescent there.
OK ... I'll have to go back and visit these stations at night .... I've been to some already but they were all south of Parkchester/E 177th ...
--Mark
The Times Square project is being done in phases. Phase One is underway now.
David
And it's a big complex, containing many stations. It'll take a while.
I can't believe relatively newer stations like 179th St. and Euclid Ave, along with older but relatively intact stations like Union Turnpike & Columbus Circle are on the list, yet Chambers/Centre will be allowed to crumble into ruin. God dammit, Marcy Ave was completely rebuilt 23 years ago, yet it's about to get rehabbed again??????!!!!!!
A lot of times (not always)when they rehab stations that are part of a compex, such as Union square, etc, all the stations in the complex are rehabbed. That didn't happen in the Brooklyn Bridge rehab. BB was rehabbed, but Chambers left to rot.
Now they are rehabbing or have rehabbed all the stations on the Nassau ST line - Broad, Fulton, Canal (the platform that isn't going to be abandoned), Essex is being worked on now, and even Bowery has been cleaned up a little (as much as a low use station will be spruced up) But Chambers seems to be left to copletely fall apart.
They rehabbed the IRT portion of this complex years ago!
Yeah, I know that, but I was saying that they rehabbed one, but not the other. Alot of times they do all the stations in a complex together. They even did that way back when they did 34th Street-Herald Square complex, and that was many years ago.
I should have been clearer. I was responding to a post, within the thread, about ADA accessibility. The list I provided was of stations in line to become ACCESSIBLE. Some of them are also getting rehabilitated, but that's a different issue.
Sorry...
David
not all stations must be made ADA compliant. For instance, 14th on the Lex has narrow platforms and as such was granted a waiver. Also- many stations have more than one entrance- ie WTC Complex (A/C/E/1/2). not all entrances are ADA compliant (assuming WTC disaster never happened.) Even if WTC disaster never happened, Park Place and the A were not required to have elevators. A access is at Canal Street from the C.
That's correct: ADA access need not be from all entrances.
Looks like South Ferry is going to be ADA (esp. if they go ahead with a new three track terminal).
It's cheaper to rehab a station that's in good shape than one that's about to cave in. Three or four stations would have to be taken off the list for Chambers St to get on it. They probably care more about increasing the %age of stations rebuilt so they can better claim to be "modernizing their system".
What about Roosevelt? the thing looks like a elevator on the platforms.
Utica Ave on the IRT is coming along just fine. New tile work has been installed on both levels and the Schenectady Ave exit.
179st, Union TPK, and 71st ave don't need any rehabilitating at all. They don't leak on the passengers, and they're all bright (except for 71st) and clean. In addition to Chambers BMT, they should focus on some of the G Line's local stations, they are in horrible shape (for the IND).
While I dont have the master list for all stations, what is rleeased for the public is "stations are selected based on size asnd number of passengers". They also try to do a line at a time which explains Alabama, Van Siclen, Cleveland,Norwood and Crescent along with the Bronx 2 from Jackson to 241 (Except 180 and Intervale) and Bronx 4 (except 161).
Also in this 5 year plan are Brighton Local Stations from Ave H to Neck Road (Express already done. Chambers on the J/M/Z is in the 5 year plan.
Part of the article states:
The W. Eighth St. station on the F and Q lines and the Neptune Ave. station on the F line in Coney Island, Manhattan's 110th St. station on the Lexington Ave. line and the Rockaway Park station on the A line in Queens also will be renovated.
"These stations are all heavily congested and provide vital links to their respective communities," according to a Transit Authority document, which says they have deteriorated over the years.
West 8th St, Neptune Ave and Rockaway Park stations heavily congested? Really??
I can tell you that elevators are being installed at the northern (eastern) part of West 8th St (was there a few weeks back) so at least that station is being made ADA compliant.
With the closure of Stillwell Ave to F & Q trains, this is a prime opportunity to work on West 8th St and Neptune AVe w/o being interrupted by train service.
--Mark
Good points.
After a week and a half of searching in JUNE, I finally found someone willing to give me a March 2002 NYC Subway map instead of the dime-a-dozen January 2002 map. Where is this heavenly place you ask? Why it is 79th Street on the 1 at the Uptown booth. Not even Howard Beach or the Transit Museum in GCT have this map!!! BTW, is there a March 2002 International Edition, or just the regular edition?
It's good to be back in NYC after my 5 month absense. But I have to say subway service on both divisions has been terrible so far these two weeks! Terrible! Nothing like last summer when I rode the Brighton line every day without incident. This summer the 1 and the A seem to be a mess at least 50% of the time. And today I was in the lead R44 on a A and it had no AC!!! NO AC!!!!
There are both editions of the March 2002 Map (the Regular {Blue} and the Multilingual {Red}).
I seem to be having bad luck too. Then again you gotta remember last Summer WTC was around, so you didn't have the West Side IRT mess.
Even worse though is my luck with LI Bus this week. Every bus 8-15 minutes late, many with no A/C.
I thought that when I graduated from high school I was through with my trouble with the line. I was wrong.
Since I started my internship in Brooklyn, I've resumed my fun with the line during the AM rush. Today it reached another level.
Going down in the morning, I get a #6 express at Parkchester at 8:50AM. At 3rd Avenue (9AM) we get switched to the local track to allow an uptown train to turn. It's an annoyingly slow porcedure, with WDs, STs, and the like. This time it was also costly; the amount of time taken to undergo this switching procedure cost everybody (incl. yours truly) a southbound #4 express at 125th (a rare empty one at that!). The next train that pulls in is a #5, with 6371 at the point. The small blessing of the R142s A/C is dwarfed by the fact that the southbound express pulls in 5 mins after the other express I was on leaves, and just when the southbound local out of Parkchester pulls in. In addition, the run is slowed considerably by a series of reds outside of 59th. Finally, the insult comes at Grand Central, when the tower holds us not only for the #6 express I got off of, but also for the local that connected back up at 125th! By then, I wondered if the next trick was to have the train terminate at Bowling Green (it was already 20 past 9) instead of going to Flatbush. Luckily it went all the way, so I could get to Borough Hall w/o any further incident.
It doesn't end there. After doing some after-work shopping along the Fulton Mall, I get a northbound #4 at Nevins. At Fulton (Manhattan) the train packs like a sardine can; I'm not sure if this is unusual or not for the Lex at 7PM. Whatever the case I have people all on top of me where I'm sitting all the way up to Grand Central. To make matters worse, the train starts crawling for some unexplained reason after Union Square, even allowing a local passed at Bleecker to pass us back. After a short hop past 59th, the train crawls again into 86th, and is held up for several minutes. Finally the T/O explains that there is a signal problem near 116th (can I get any confirmation?), prompting me to detrain just as the doors are closing while the C/R keeps saying "delays." There's a local to Parkchester already upstairs; I get aboard, wondering if we'll meet up with the other express at 125th and if there is a #6 express that I am about to watch pass by at some point on the Pelham line (which did happen, as a finishing touch).
I had a pretty shitty commute on the 2 tonight. I caught a 3 train at 72nd St, the last one of the night so it went to East 180th St. I figured I could take it to East 180th and transfer to the 2. Well that's just what I did, however I was stuck waiting at East 180th for the 2 - FOR 40 MINUTES!! No announcements, no nothing, just a lot of people standing on the platforms sucking their teeth in anger (in true Bronx form). Finally the 2 train shows up at 1:15 AM, after two 5 shuttles came and went, yes two shuttles. I ask the conductor what happened. What does he do? Why, he shoots me a dirty look, as if to say, "What do you think happened?" I ask him again. He's still staring at me. What in the hell is matter with that guy? Would it have killed him to give me a simple "I don't know"? No, he had to stare at me and expect me to know. What is his problem? You know he ain't the only one with a job to do. I work late hours too. I deal with angry and rude people at my job too. I don't stare at them blankly and act like an a**hole when they ask me why something goes wrong. And I make a hell of a lot less money than this guy does. And why couldn't someone make an announcement about why there were no uptown 2 trains at East 180th for 40 minutes? Are we supposed to know why?
The much awaited Harrisburg Line CTC project has been completed allowing Rule 261 operation between CP-WYOMISSING JCT. in Reading and CP-CAPITOL in Harrisburg along the NS, formerly Conrail, formerly Reading, Harrisburg Line / Lebanon Valley Branch. All the hand crossovers have been removed along with the mobile block operators with their train order hoops w/ Form D's. Even some of the old Conrail power crossovers have been removed and relocated to more stratiegic locations. As usual, signals were the casualties with the Reading Co. installed, Rule 251 Automatic Block Signals using GRS SA searchlight signals were all felled. Many of these were on tall "bracket" style signal posts that were painted silver and black. The replacements are repugnent SafeTran "traffic light" style signals on garish aluminium posts or highway style gantries/cantilevers. Does anyone remember a time when one could go railfanning and see things different than one saw on the drive up? Further casualties were Conrail "target" type tri-colour signals, the Conrail style lo-profile point heaters that were replaced w/ obtrusive and ugly hot air blower units and all the Conrail natural rust and Reading masonry signal relay huts were replaced with blinding pre-fab aluminium ones. Just about the only good thing was the new Conrail Blue reflective signs on interlockings. The former Reading telegraph pole line will also be removed shortly.
One interesting thing was the raising of speeds through Lebanon PA from 25 to 40 mph. The 25 mph speed was due to 11 grade crossings in town. The restriction actually increased grade crossing incidents due to the fact that motorists didn't want to wait for the slow moving trains to pass by. There are future plans to raise the speed further to 50 mph.
Next up on NS's hit parade is the Reading Line b/t Reading and Allentown with "traffic light" signals already going up and former Reading signals to be taken out of service w/in a matter of weeks. I was out at CP-ALBURTIS last weekend getting some final shots and all the new equipment was stacked up awaiting instalation. So everyone run out to your local interlocking to get some shots in b4 the railroad becames just another highway.
If the railroad becoming a "highway" means that the railroad keeps running, and is a better railroad, I'm for it.
Seriously, signal upgrades are a good thing, no?
If N/S did nothing and blamed the decline of freight traffic in the Northeast on "poor, outdated, inherited signalling systems", would or would not you be one of the first to decry their lack of investment in upgrading infrastructure?
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Although as a signal fan I view Rule 251 operation as something equivalent to a Redbird, my beef is not with the upgrade to Rule 261, but the replacement parts used in the upgrade. They used cheap lo-quality crap from Safetran instead of a more reputable company like US&S. They simply threw away the old signal hardware instead of incorporating it into the new system. I personally think that searchlight type signals are wonderfully minimalist and should be used more often. NS didn't even stick with the traditional Conrail style Round target signal and instead went w/ goofey looking traffic lights on flashy "Star Wars" style masts. Instead of using cost effective lo-profile point heaters they installed the heavy duty type normally used around the Great Lakes and in Canada. Their flashy relay huts will look dull and crapy with age instead of the natural rust boxes that blend in w/ their environment.
Some NS signaling VP watched the SafeTran infomercial and bought the whole package for just three easy installments of $29.95 instead of thinking if the product was any good or if he needed all the free bonuses.
There is signaling scourge speading accross this country blightling railraods from Los Angeles to Baltimore. Traffic lights with plastic glare hoods and aluminium "Star Wars" masts have laid waste thousands of miles of western trackage and now its heading east. If nothing changes every railroad in North America will look the same and same will look like you local divided highway. It even makes cab signals w/o fixed wayside signals a blessing.
Oh yeah, a more efficent operation which increases safety while it simultaneously reduces costs for the railroad and its employees...HAS to be a bad thing. One day, Mike, reality is going to sneak up behind you and smack you upside the head with something that makes the job more efficient and cheaper for the smacker.
-Hank
The entire project has shown a near Pearlmanian tendency to destroy what is old even if the recycling of materials would provide a cost savings. When Amtrak re-signaled the Springfield Line it took all the old NHRR US&S H-2's and stuck them on new masts in their new locations where they provide excellent service to this day. MNRR used/kept a lot of its old H-2's on the New Haven Line when it could have replaced them with the new modular dwarfs. When Amtrak reduced the block length on the NEC they were left with a warehouse full of PRR Position Light signals and this is part of the reason why all the new Amtrak installations on the NEC use position lights.
When you have perfectly functional equipment from back in the day when they built stuff to last it makes no sence to just throw it away in favour of modern cheap plastic crap from an inferrior manufacturer.
If NS is trying to cut costs so why spend the money to cut down an old telephone pole line or why use heavy duty arctic point heaters when cheaper compact models will do the job. Someone is just being modern for modernity's sake.
They pay property taxes on every pole left standing. NS Please give Jersey Mike some of your scrap signals. and throw in some Hemingray Petticoat insulators (World's Sest since May 2, 1893)
THey could try claiming the poles as a laibility as they represent a safety/operational hazzard.
Seriously, most RR lines have some sort of abandonned pole line next to them. Even if these were taxed couldn't they get written off as abandonned/worthless in a new property assessment? Property taxes work on market value and an abandoned pole line must have near zero or even negitive value.
BNSF (Well, BN back then) sold the poles to a contractor who removed them. People buy them for their gardens and other things. Fetch a nice price too.
But yes, as soons as BN was done with them, they were gone.
Stations too. Once it is disuses by the railroad, it is sold, and you have 30 days to get it off the property.
Grain elevators too, for that matter.
Elias
What proof do you have that the new signals are inferior?
US&S consistantly wins industry awards for quality and preformance and is generally considered the industry standard. Its just like EMD vs GE. EMD units are top quality and will last 30-40 years. GE units face the scrapper after about 15-20 years. Example, there are more F units around than the decade newer GE U-boats. But since EMD costs more all the RR's buy GE w/o considering the long run costs.
In your previous you spokke badly of "cheap plastic crap." Why is using plastic so bad? Plastic doesn't rust and isn't poreous (sp?), so maybe it works better than other materials.
In a railroad situation metal is a much better choice. First, the lineside equipment is subjected to projectiles either thrown from passing trains or vandals and more importantly, gunshots from redneck hunters. Plastic backings tend to shatter when hit by bullets. It is also more suceptable to the heat and smoke from engine exaust and is subject to fading that can not just be fixed w/ a new coat of paint.
Plastic deteriorates very quickly in sunlight.
Maybe not a problem in the subway, but out here... we get lots of sunlight.
Elias
Perhaps there are different reasons that the U-boats are gone but the F units are still around. Perhaps it's because, thanks to the AT&SF, railroads see them as PR tools. I doubt many non-fans see U-boats as something to write home about. But an F9...it says something when the majority of off-the-shelf train sets come with one.
-Hank
Actually, untill very recently there were a bunch of ABBA sets working in Ohio and somewhere around the Iron Range not to mention isolated freight operations like the B&LE and the SJRR. Combine these with the 20-30 FL-9's that were on the CDoT, MNRR and Amtrak rosters and you have a revenue working fleet far bigger than the fleet of remaining U-boats. Granted in the last few years the # of F units have fallen, but I can't name any places w/ active U boats.
Actually, EMD doesn't build their units like they used to. We already had SD-45's and GP-50's which were duffs. With the amount of electronics that are in SD-70's I can't see those lasting too long. SD-80's, like SD-45's, has too high maintenance costs and won't last. We've yet to see how the H-block performs. The fact that most roads prefer SD-70 to SD-90 should say something to you.
The SD-40's had to be rebuilt to prolong its life. I suggest the reason that U boats don't get rebuilt is because it is cheaper just to buy them new than rebuild them. There has to be something to be said for GE's. Not that I like GE's particularly from a railfan point of view, but I do like the NS Dash-9's. On any other road they look duff but on NS they look pretty good.
AEM7
Check out this quote from the latest Hot Times:
"I have not had the opportunity to observe it up close and personal, but in Southern Illinois the CNIC has Cobden Hill. This is quite the grade that has trains on their hands and knees, even with three or more high horsepower units pulling heavy trains. Cobden Hill was used as the test ground when IC was looking to acquire new power in the mid 90’s. Both General Electric and Electro Motive Division of General Motors brought out their big power for testing on the stiff grade. Obviously EMD won out as SD70’s were acquired. The Mechanical Department personnel involved with the tests told me the SD70’s outperformed the Dash 9’s of GE quite impressively. "
Jersey Mike has a point. Although there is something to be said for having uniform fleet of (locomotives, signals, and various other things), there is also absolutely no need to re-hash the entire railroad with a common type of signal especially only if some of the signals are replaced. Who knows, the way mergers had been going, an NS line with NS style signals may not be an NS line in 5 years.
The point I am trying to make is this -- if CSX went in and installed traffic lights on all its tracks, what's going to happen to that track when it gets sold to NS or some other party? If that happens, NS has two different types of signals to deal with: N&W type, and ex-CSX type. Now see what I mean? Much easier and better just to stick to the same type of the signal on the same line, regardless of who owns it. For example, the entire Conrail main was done with US&S signals in the 1980s. The fact that two different parties own the line now should not immediately mean any incremental upgrade should call for propriatary signal types. In fact, maintaining the US&S signals throughout the entire length of the Conrail main will keep costs lower for everybody in the long run, regardless of who owns it.
Unfortunately, when you divide up a mainline amongst different institutions, people don't always agree as to what is most cost effective. I don't have enough expertise to judge what signals are good but suffices to say that the Conrail type signals are LED-based and the CSX "traffic lights" are bulb based, so in the long run the costs of the bulb based signals must be higher... Conrail got it right, once again.
But currently CSX, NS, UP and BNSF are all installing the same traffic light satefran crud. When Burlington Northern Santa Pacific Southern X is forned in 2020 we're looking at total homoginity.
Because a plastic light on an aluminum pole costs a lot less to install and maintain:
It's lighter.
You don't have to paint it.
Plastic has better dimensional control than cast anything, so the heads are a lot cheaper - no machining required.
Aluminum poles are lighter, and don't really corrode away.
If there's a derailment and a pole gets wacked, it gets replaced anyway.
Safetran might offer LED based signals = lower power use, less maintenance.
Old signals might have mechanical components that are long since shot.
'Traffic light" signals have nothing mechanical, just electrics = less maintenance.
I suspect that US&S can't compete with Safetran on either price, reliability, or quality (or all three). In any case, resignalling a line with waysides is stupid - if you're using coded track circuits, it's better to cab signal the line anyway, since you've installed 90% of the required equipment already.
US&S's SES (?) cab signal setup looks decent. I think NJT is installing it. It'll be interesting to see if they use the full feature set and how it runs...
The big problem w/ plastic is that its just not as durable. There are old cast signals out there that are 40, 50, 60 years old and all they need is the occasional coat of paint. Co you think that some plastic device could stand up to extreme outdoor weather conditions for the same period of time? Not to mention the whole deal w/ rednecks' love at shooting at RR signals. Re: the masts, I dont really care about the Aluminium, weak as it is and much more expensive to replace than Steel, is that they stopped painting them. WHy paint an AL mast? Its for signal contrast. CR painted the upper portion of its masts black to provide for greater signal visability. Shiny things reflect the sun, which can caused obscured or phantom aspects.
The big problem w/ plastic is that its just not as durable.
Bullsh*t. There a good number of plastics out there they will last effectively forever in the weather.
There are old cast signals out there that are 40, 50, 60 years old and all they need is the occasional coat of paint.
And then you open the lamp doors and the rust pours out... Oh yeah, and cracks form, parts corrode or rust away. And you'd better paint those singlans often, unless you like the rusted, falling apart look. Then you get water leaks inside, which obsucure the light, short electrics out, kill the mechanism (if any) inside...
Not to mention the whole deal w/ rednecks' love at shooting at RR signals.
So what? They explode a cast signal, it's toast. They explode a plastic signal, it's toast.
Re: the masts, I dont really care about the Aluminium, weak as it is and much more expensive to replace than Steel, is that they stopped painting them.
It's strong enough for what it's holding, and it's cheaper than steel.
WHy paint an AL mast? Its for signal contrast. CR painted the upper portion of its masts black to provide for greater signal visability.
So what? Anodize an aluminum mast at the factory, it stays a nice dark black for decades. No painting. Why the hell would any RR want to send a crew around all the time painting signals when they can order a mast that'll stay in shape for 30+ years? Nobody wants to handle painting crews and the atendant hassles if they can avoid it.
Shiny things reflect the sun, which can caused obscured or phantom aspects.
Hence, you anodize the aluminum black. And it'll stay that way for years. You could powdercoat it too, I guess.
Of course, you might as well. It's aluminum, it'll never rust away. It's going to be there a long time. Hell, if the RR industry wasn't stuck in the dark ages in the US, they'd be using fiberglass poles instead....
I don't care how they make the upper portions black, just as long as they do it. Also, I was referring to a metal backing as being gunshot resistant when shot, not the body. You look at any RR sheet metal sign or signal target and its at least got a couple of holes. If the backings are plastic they would just shatter. Anyway, both SafeTran and US&S only offer cast AL light mountings, the differance is w/ the backings which ST sells as plastic.
ST only offers little modular signal lamps that can be placed into different backings, usually the traffic light style. While US&S, while still offering modular units, also offers the full range of singaling alternatives, including a single unit "triangular" target signal housing w/ 3 lamps. The interesting thing about the ST modular lamps is that they are not square, like the US&S lamps, and require all sorts of little mounting hardware to stick together. This is why the traffic light arrangement is preferred, as the target arrangement is really hard to get together. I personally feel that the round target is better as it provides more of a dark area around the signal improving visability.
Do you really feel that a single 3 aspect searchlight is less preferable to a dwarf with 3 seperate lamps and lens assembiles? Moving parts of not they seem to be pretty relyable and transit systems everywhere seem to have no problems w/ their electric trip arm systems that work w/ the same pinciples. When you get into the world of dwarf signals the search really becomes valueable as a 2-head dwarf can display every NORAC aspect, which would require two traffic light dwarfs mounted on top of eachother, an installation that would cease to really be "dwaf" any more.
Hey, there is this wonderful plastic substance called Lexan that's
bullet resistant.
Raco used to make a signal head called Unilens. It had one
main lens and 3 projector-style bulbs with colored filters in
front of them. Fiber optic light pipes delivered the light to
the lens. They weren't very popular because the bulbs were wicked
expensive and didn't have a long life. Now, with the advent of
LED signals, does anyone make a single-lens 3-color signal using
LEDs?
SafeTran manufactures the Unilens and Unilens II with 2 and 4 lamps respectively. They were meant for drawf installations, but the only onesI have ever seen were on a high signal at the Chicago Union Station approach.
Hey, there is this wonderful plastic substance called Lexan that's
bullet resistant.
But not ejection seat resistant :) At least not at high altitudes. Most older military aircraft could eject a pilot through the canopy if needed. The Harrier does this as a matter of design - there's detcord embedded in the canopy. Pilot pulls the lever, detcord fires - the shock wave causes lots and lots of microcracks all over (I'd assume this turns it temporarilly opaque*), and then the pilot shoots through the canopy - the seat has a breaker and protection for his head.
Now, with the advent of LED signals, does anyone make a single-lens 3-color signal using LEDs?
It's probbably on the drawing boards. The only real issue is color balance of yellow, since it's achived by running red + green at the same time, but this can be controlled too, most easily by PWM. LED displays are near 0 maintenance, though you can have the computer watch (and a WDT watch the computer!) a few important parameters and maybe even phone home before something takes a dive...
* This technique was used on the high speed camera banks for atomic bomb test photos. I believe the setup was a mechanical shutter, Kerr cell, and a glass brick. The shutter would be open right before T = 0, then the Kerr cell would fire, turning clear for millionth of a second or so, then an explosive would fire, instantly causing microcracking in the glass, turning it opaque, which protected the film from the bright light as the shutter closed.
Beginning Mon, June 17, work will begin on the J line re-configuration project in lower Manhattan. On the above date, J3 track (Jamaica bound express) from the bumping block at Canal St. to north of the Bowery will be permanently taken out of service. Rails, third rails, protection boards and tie plates are to be removed. Construction of quarters for Third Rail Operations is also scheduled to begin, presumably somewhere on the site of the former J3.
I take it they'll be punching an opening in the wall at Canal St as well.
Eventually. Probably in a couple of months.
So I assume this is the work that will eventually abandon the Queens bound platform. I assume J3 track is the "express" track on the Broad bound side.
The "express" track on the Broad St.-bound side has been pulled up for some time now. It was almost never used even when trains terminated at Canal St. They'll have to put down new rails. IIRC the third rail is still in place.
The track numbers are mixed up on the J line. J3 track is actually the Jamaica-bound "express" track. And yes, eventually the Queens-bound platforms at Canal St & Bowery will be abandoned.
Have they decided yet if the 2nd Ave subway (when and if it ever gets built) will use the Nassau St line or the Water St alignment they talked about. The work they are doing at Canal needs to be done wheather or not they send the 2 Ave there or not. If they just abandon the Queens Bound platform it needs to be done, or if they do send the 2 Ave there it needs to be done. What is the estimated date that the Queens bpund platform will be abandoned?
That means it will soon be impossible to terminate trains at Canal. The other "express" track hasn't had a track for a long time.
I was at Canal yesterday and it looks like the connection between the two platforms is no longer accessible -- the only way off of the NB platform is down.
Yeah, I noticed that also. I guess it's finally happening. I feel it's a good idea to abandon the Queens Canal platform, although I'm going to miss it. I've had a lot of good times using that platform, right from my teen years. My freinds and I use to go to Canal to buy fireworks, (before the Guiliani era) and would wind up with bagsfull as we waited for the M train there on the way home, always feeling guilty--that after watching all the old Chineese ladies trying to sell them on a sheet on the sidewalk, while they were dodging cops!. Canal was always a place we would start or end in when we went to the city. In fact, here I was this past weekend, now 15 years later, using that station, only this time I had a bag of $4.00 CD's, maybe from the same ladies, again their eyes watching for the cops. Boy, I love that station......
hey guys! just wanted to let you guys know, not only am i taking the june 29 exam for NYCT trackworker, but Metro North just called me to take a exam for their Trackworker! any advice u guys gotta give me? hopefully this is my ticket into either Metro North or NYCT
Money aside, It's a matter of where would you like to work? Somewhere in the 5 boros or anywhere from Downstate New York to Port Jervis or New Haven, Conn?
well i admit it is far, but this is my chance to get into a Railroad and believe u me, im ready to give MCDONALDS 2 FINGERS!!! they had me work 3pm-1am yesterday with a early break. i went from 5-1am NONSTOP
Don't have all the details, but sounds like the RBBX Circus train was screwed on its priority... they didn't let him run round a freight train with problems despite several opportunities presenting itself en-route...
It gets better.....NS train O47 (the Circus train), is following NS 171, which went into emergency at RIVERSIDE. The crew of 171 was just getting on the radio to the O47 to let them know what was going on (thank Pete for that tidbit). Guess the folks in the vestibules are gonna have to have another frosty adult beverage or two during the delay (lots of folks in the vestibules were indulging in Heineken, Becks, and one poor slob was working on a can of Miller Lite..). I agree, it is a sight to see......just would have liked to have seen it in daylight with a fresh roll of film in the Olympus.
-- Don Nickel
I seen 171 come by in front of the circus train..I wondered how far he was gonna make it as the 2nd conrail unit on 171 had flames shooting out of the stack and black smoke and he was struggling to get up the hill so I figured he was gonna puke in front of 047, I thought well maybe they will stick him in the pass at west poit and let them run around..well that answers that question!!!
-- "Located at Lafayette Junction"
Flames shooting out of older GE units is not that uncommon and is not that much of a problem. It just indicates that the unit is working really hard.
When was the City Hall station closed, and why? Are there plans to re-open it? Thank you.
HERE
is some info on the IRT city hall station. It was closed primarily because trains got longer. There are no plans to reopen it as an operating station. However, there are some plans, on the back burner at the moment, to turn it into a satellite of the Transit Museum.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was closed primarily because trains got longer.
But trains are definitely longer than the platform at South Ferry and IIRC at 145/Lenox too. 14th St on the Lex and South Ferry are both on nasty curves. I think what really killed it was being so close to Brooklyn Bridge.
That plus the fact that very few people used it. Total patronage for 1945, the last year the loop station was open, was something like 255,000.
...and....would you want them to install gap fillers at that station?
THAT would be tatamount to sacriledge(SP?)
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm not so sure gap fillers would even work at City Hall due to the extreme sharpness of the curve. Besides, Brooklyn Bridge station is less than a trainlength away. AFAIK City Hall never had gap fillers. OTOH with the vestibuled rolling stock, it was simply a matter of leaving the center doors closed when trains stopped there.
Ave I and 18 av on the Culver are very close to each other. And Beverley+Courteyou on Brighton is even closer than City Hall+Bk Bridge. it takes a (Q) 15secs to get there and a 6 seconds!
Ave I and 18 av on the Culver are very close to each other. And Beverley+Courteyou on Brighton is even closer than City Hall+Bk Bridge.
For some reason it seems to matter less in Brooklyn. Perhaps the MTA haven't noticed anything further into Brooklyn than 370 Jay Street is there. Certainly there is a case for closing either Beverl(e)y or Cortelyou on the Brighton Line. Av I and 18th Av on the Culver are a rather different matter and I don't reckon I could make a case for closing either of them. However, if I were building the Culver Line today, those two stations would disappear in favour of one at about Parkville Av.
However, if I were building the Culver Line today, those two stations would disappear in favour of one at about Parkville Av.
Why is it that you would eliminate two perfectly good stops at major cross streets and replace it with one at what is effectively an alley?
You don't bother to look at the areas where you come up with your plans. Weren't you the one who said that some subway line should be extended to Horace Harding Blvd like the Second System intended?
Why is it that you would eliminate two perfectly good stops at major cross streets and replace it with one at what is effectively an alley?
They weren't "major cross streets" when the Culver Line was built IIRC. Of course it would be a waste of time shifting the stations now, but when it was being constructed they had the luxury of deciding where to put the stations. They probably constructed too many. At least it wasn't too few.
Weren't you the one who said that some subway line should be extended to Horace Harding Blvd like the Second System intended?
If you look under the heading "Plan 2" on the following page, you will read "4 tracks on Flushing Ave to Horace Harding Blvd.".
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/indsecondsystem/south4.htm
The fact that Flushing Avenue doesn't get to Horace Harding Blvd (or Expressway if you're going to play silly semantic games) is not my problem. I suggest that if you find this offensively incorrect, you should contact Mr Joseph D. Korman about it.
They weren't "major cross streets" when the Culver Line was built
They were. 18th Avenue and Avenue I aren't important because the subway stations were built there, they're important because that's how the county laid them out. Parkville Avenue was always to be a side street. It only runs from 47th Street to Coney Island Avenue, a distance of about 12 blocks, while Avenue I runs to East 58th Street from Dahill Road with only a 1 block interruption. 18th Avenue, if coupled with Ditmas Avenue and Avenue D (they run into each other) runs all the way from the waterfront at Bath Beach to Rockaway Avenue, almost the enitre width of Brooklyn.
Parkville Avenue was originally called Washington Avenue and laid out as part of the hamlet of Parkville (nee Greenfield). 18th Avenue was Franklin Avenue and along with Foster Avenue on the other side of Parkville was to serve as one of the main streets for the village. When the county laid out their street plan, the Old Bath Road was to be rerouted to meet the west end of Franklin Avenue and the whole thing would be called 18th Avenue. This was done. So you see, 18th Avenue was a main street CENTURIES before railroads were even invented.
Just look at this map from the time of the revolution. There, 18th Avenue is already there, just above and to the left of the words NEW UTRECHT. I should point out though, that it turned away before hitting the future McDonald Avenue, but by the time the Culver Line was built, it already followed its current path.
but when it was being constructed they had the luxury of deciding where to put the stations.
They did, but they would be total fools if they decided to avoid what were then the main streets. I can see putting a station at Avenue J instead of Avenue I (the Bay Parkway station could have been removed), which is more prominent in spite of the Culver station not being on it (Brighton is more important).
The fact that Flushing Avenue doesn't get to Horace Harding Blvd (or Expressway if you're going to play silly semantic games)
It's not about semantics. The plan was to build to Horace Harding Blvd... in 1929. You said that the plan should be executed now. If you had known enough about geography, you would have said the Long Island Expressway or Horace Harding Expressway.
The south exit of 18th Ave on the F is at Lawerence ave, which is Parkville ave after Ocean Pkwy. I think keeping ave I makes sence due to the bus connections.
The bus connection there only began 1n 1978 when the B11 was extended from 18th Avenue to Canarsie.
When the Brooklyn Bridge Station was rebuilt to permit longer trains it sort of migrated south a little until it was almost inside of the City Hall Station.
You surely don't ave to move a train very far from the BB station before you are turning through the loop.
Elias
When the Brooklyn Bridge Station was rebuilt to permit longer trains it sort of migrated south a little until it was almost inside of the City Hall Station.
Actually, the Brooklyn Bridge station was moved north and away from City Hall back in the 1960's. It was the Worth St station that was enveloped. The point is moot because no street entrances were added or removed in the vicinity of City Hall as part of the reconstruction.
However, the street entrance to the City Hall station raises an interesting point. It lies squarely within the City Hall fortress built by Mayor Guiliani.
"However, the street entrance to the City Hall station raises an interesting point. It lies squarely within the City Hall fortress built by Mayor Guiliani."
Yeh... he wanted to keep his wife out.
: ) Elias
[However, the street entrance to the City Hall station raises an interesting point. It lies squarely within the City Hall fortress built by Mayor Guiliani.]
Rudy claimed at the time that the barricades, as well as the ban on passengers riding through the CH loop, were essential for the protection of City Hall (and himself, presumably) from terrorists. The best rebuttal of that theory came from, of all people, the mayor of JERUSALEM; effectively, "I'm more of a target than Rudy, yet my City Hall is open!!"
If thats true, Rudy had no right to be mayor.
Rudy had no right to be mayor.
Lets see:
Rudy...
is a US Citizen
and resident of New York City
filed all the appropriate forms correctly
is not a convicted felon
Elected by the majority of voters in New York City... twice.
So tell me how he had no "right" to be mayor.
And a coward. If Jerusilums mayor is willing to be killed for his country what is rudys excuse for not die for his country?
He's not a soldier, he's not supposed to die for his country.
This is how close Beverley and Cortelyou are:
What is that, like one trainlength? It looks like almost, if you opened the last door on a train at Cortelyou, and the first at Beverly you could walk from one station to the next....just about, anyway!
Nice telephoto lens.. but yes, one train length is prety close. But then they are both important streets, are they not?
Elias
Not so important that there need to be stations at both.
The Beverley Road station would have been closed about 100 years ago had not one of the developers of the neighborhood been on close (familial, IIRC) terms with one of the BRT big shots.
I hope they have some plans to renovate the station, or at least do something there for October 27, 2004. Do they have any plans for the subway's big birthday? Something should happen at the City Hall station to commemorate that. They better start soon though, the date is not too far off.
Plans are in the works but have not been made public yet.
Contrary to rumors on "another board", the service plans on the B and D will continue as is......The W will be the basic 24/7 serice from Ditmars Blvd. to Stillwell Ave....The N will be OPTO to 36/4 on the midnight, will have conductors to Pacific on weekends......The F will go no farther than Ave. X. Crews will change s/b at Kings Hwy, operate to Ave. X and relay for n/b service......All Q's to Brighton Beach........M service M-F will remain as is. As for the weekend & holiday schedules, OPTO starting around 2 AM Saturday to 2 AM Monday. As for holidays, from 2AM on the day of the holiday itself to 2AM the next morning. 2 MAN OPERATION ON FRIDAY NIGHTS UNTIL 2AM SATURDAY. Information about R143 operation during non OPTO times not availiable at this time. M OPTO work programs are essentailly the same as the current S/S schedules with one exception: a 1 minute increase in running time from 12 minutes to 13 minutes. Trains leave Met 1 minute earlier, return 1 minute later so as to not compromise the connection at Bway/Myrtle with the J. Translated, this means shorter recovery time at Met. For example, Sunday M301, at least on one occasion, the job had 5 minutes of "recovery" for the crew at Met. Now the OPTO t/o will have all of 3 minutes recovery time at Met.
Interesting info, Bill, thanks.
Here in Boston, when the Blue Line went OPTO some years ago, end-to-end service time increased by about three minutes due to operators having to go back-and-forth from the operating position to work the doors at many stops.
What about the Red and Orange lines? OPTO or 2PTO?
Both the Red and Orange are 2PTO (operator and "guard").
The Green Line (light rail) has one operator per car, even in two- and three-car trains.
I remember the MBTA Boeings had OPEN and CLOSE buttons right by the front right door, never used, which I assume were there to close the doors on a whole train. I guess that was nipped in the bud fairly quickly!
Correct. They were never functional; and were removed during the mid-life (crisis :-) overhaul.
Oops, didn't mean to step on your toes. Your post got buried there.
FYI, the N shuttle will go to Pacific Street on the midnights also.
They still have the same number of shuttles?
When work starts on the Nassau St Reconfiguration project at Canal St very soon, will this work be done only during the night hours & on weekends.
If that seems to be the case, where will the "J" train terminate in Manhattan during this work at Essex St with a shuttle bus running to Chambers St or to West 4 St via the Christie St Connection & terminate the "J" train on the express tracks north of West 4 St along with the Grand St Shuttle.
I don't think the work on the "express" track will warrant closure of the current tracks too much. You did come up with an interesting GO though......
Well on the SB between west4 and bdwy-lafeyatte, theres no switch between local and exp. I guess the J could relay from the local track at West4 to the middle, but that will interfere with the F and V. I'd really like to see the J go to 6 av though. A true Kodak moment
No V, it will only be nights and weekends. and the F is alot more infrequent then too. The shuttle is what it might interfere with. But I sure wish we could have that, and maybe draw people's attention and help create a demand.
But knowing our luck, they'll probably just do single tracking on J2 with reduced frequency if necessary.
Does anyone have any idea on where NYCT will built the new Staten Island Bus "Annex" on Staten Island (location).
Sorry about the mistake below it.
1000 lashes with a wet fishbowl for you. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Middays, the J is turning at Myrtle, and the M is on 24 minute headways. With gaps that long, I'm guessing the M might be running both ways on a single track, absolute block.
Anybody know what the real deal is?
That's right. The last day fo the GO is Friday June 14. Since the WillyB now has all traffic lanes open, that midday operation should be over and done with.
Oh it's for bridge work. I though it was something to do with the station rehabs on B'way.
Thanx
I believe one of the tracks on the Williamsburg was closed. That's why the M was only running every 24 minutes and the j ending at Myrtle. They kept the M running and not the J, I guess because it continues south of Broad.
Why can't they add extra M service from Chambers to Bklyn?
What does G.O. stand for?
Go read the FAQ and please don't ask what that stands for.
Or you could have simply said General Order...
He could have said that but like when I asked my Mom to spell a word,she would spell it "D-I-C-T-I-O-N-A-R-Y"
You have to LEARN somethings instead of always having it handed to you.
G_o
O_ver
there, onto that track where you don't normally G.O.
Ridership numbers does not justify it.
Don't they normally run at 10 minute headways? True, no one uses the service, but they won't attract riders by running it every 24.
They don't want to attract ridership. It was just part of the deal to shut Grand st. riders up.
True, it is being financed by the state, not the MTA, so the MTA has nothing to lose by operating it. Even so, it seems like a potential money maker in my mind...
What's the alternative, given that one track on the bridge is out? I rode the line a few days ago during the period of 24-minute headways, and while the train was more crowded than usual, with many standees, it wasn't terribly crowded in absolute terms.
What I don't understand is why the rehab work on the Jamaica-bound platforms started before this GO ended. The officially recommended way to get, e.g., from Hewes to Manhattan is to go one outbound one stop (since the inbound platform is closed), cross under, and take a train back towards Manhattan. But when single-tracking between Marcy and Essex is in effect, inbound and outbound trains pass right around Hewes. In addition to the up-to-24-minute wait for the first M train, anybody following this advice has a guaranteed 24-minute wait for the second one! Walking is a better idea for most, but it's a hardship for some, and some people may be unaware of the two GO's and may have already swiped before realizing that they're in for perhaps 48 minutes of standing on the platform.
48 minutes......damn, I'd go nuts!
Who needs it?
u guys may say no one uses these lines,but I'm from one of those neighborhoods effected by the service changes[no one rides...yeah right,give me a break...]
Ahem. The GO has been extended to June 28.
Okay folks, my unemployment check just arrived (whew!), so I as soon as I'm done posting this, I'm shutting down the computer, getting in my car, and driving to Philadelphia. I likely won't have Internet access until I return late Sunday night, although I may manage to hop online once or twice while I'm gone.
If you're interested in meeting up with the small group on Saturday, meet at 2:00 PM at the Times Square shuttle platform, near the little metal bridge that crosses the connector track.
Wish me a safe and productive trip... I'm off!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Good luck with your trip and your interview. You seem like a guy who knows his stuff!
Chuck Greene
The following changes will go into effect on Sunday, Sept. 8th, 2002. These have been officially listed in the NYCTA run book:
B/D service will remain unchanged.
F service will terminate at Avenue X. Buses will run between Avenue X and Stillwell Av. For crews: Southbound crews will get off at Kings Highway. The northbound crew will get on and take the train in service to Avenue X. Trains will then be relayed by the crews (double ended by switchmen) onto the Avenue X Yard Lead and will enter northbound service at Avenue X. This is similar to the service pattern exhibited on the N line.
G/J/V service remains unchanged.
M service will run OPTO on weekends only from 2am Saturday until 2am Monday.
For crews: The amount of trips remains unchanged (avg. 10-11 trips), but the running time has been risen 1 minute to 13 minutes. Daily midnight runs will still have a Conductor.
The N/W flip-flop will be implemented.
N service will operate between Astoria-86 St Brooklyn Mon-Fri 5:30am-Midnight. During midnight hours and all day weekends, N shuttle service will run between Pacific St-86 Street. OPTO will be implemented during midnight hours only. Weekend runs will still have a Conductor.
W service will run between Stillwell Av-Astoria 24 hours. W service will operate via Broadway Express & Manhattan Bridge Mon-Fri 5:30am-Midnight. All other times, W service will operate via Broadway Local & Montague St Tunnel (via Whitehall Street) when N service is not running.
All Q service (express and local) will terminate at Brighton Beach. Shuttle buses will run along the B68 route between Brighton Beach-Stillwell Av.
For crews: Most, but not all crews will relay their own trains south of Brighton Beach after the trip is completed.
That is all (for now).
I thought when the N's relayed, they were double ended by having two road crews on board. Is there a switching job there?
So on the 'F' the "NB" crew runs south to tower C, then back at Ave X north platform, the T/O walks the up to the NB cab, I guess.
interesting post!
There is a switching job at 86th. all you do is pull it out for the road crew. They change ends in the station while you take over. There are several switching jobs that report to Kings Hwy F, and I assume most of these will be the Av. X switchmen. (likewise, 86th St. switchmen report to Kings Hwy N.
I don't know why the N is done that way, and I don't know why now the F will be that way too. Three terminals, basically. They are building the new facilities at Ax. X, so why don't they just have the changeover there. One difference though, is that with the R-46's you won't have to dump and the next T/O recharge. (this seems to disturb people on the N, because it makes it look like that is the last stop, and it takes more time.)
>I thought when the N's relayed, they were double ended by having two >road crews on board. Is there a switching job there?
Late nights the switchman takes it from Kings Hwy to 86 and the relay.
It helps to recover the schedule when the track gangs delay service.
One problem dispatchers have is late trains. You can hide a late southbound train only until it is scheduled to go north again plus a few minutes. By allocating a long drop back time at Kings Hwy AND 86 and having pullmen take it from KHwy you recover a tremendous amount of time.
It really kills the Astoria N crews in that they wind up getting shorter lunches and 20 min breaks in places like 86st or long WAA at Kings Hwy in the middle of the night when all the stores are closed.
My guess is that the F will do the same thing as the N, weird breaks and such but their on time record will be helped out and the number of skips from Church Ave go down.
does this mean 8 cars on the W and 4 for the N shuttle at all times or just overnight.
I have no idea. The run book doesn't list such things.
I just saw the pick sheets go up at ENY today, so I saw these changes as well. Now it's harder to tell which job is a Q diamond or Q circle, since they all go to Brighton Beach. Now, you have to compare the running times to see which is shich. (BTW, there aren't any that only go to Kings Hwy, as some speculated).
maybe the best thing to do is to give one of the Q's a new name just like they did with the Brooklyn portion of the B renaming it the W.
Maybe they should rename the circle Q's T's instead,that way nobody will get confused,workers or public.
Did the NYCTA run book mentioned anything about N run via Bridge or Tunnel?
Read the post. When the N runs, it goes via tunnel, and the W via bridge/express. When the N isn't running, the W runs via tunnel/local.
Exactly as I said it would eventually run.
Wait a minute! You mean there will be no shuttle train on the F or Q line to West Eighth Street? So West Eighth Street, Neptune Avenue, and Ocean Parkway stations will be TOTALLY WITHOUT SUBWAY SERVICE? That sucks.
- Lyle Goldman
Perfect time for rebuilding them...
... which is what is supposed to happen (except Ocean Pkwy).
--Mark
Speaking selfishly as an indulgent railfan, does this mean the Astoria line will become like the Brighton line, with no railfan windows on weekends? I've never seen anything but R68s and As on the W since its birth. Or will Slants be brought in to provide weekend relief as they were on the B before July?
What about 4th Avenue? All indications are that the weekend W will run local and the N shuttle will run express, at least from Pacific to 36th. That's how it's been with weekend W shuttles, inasmuch as they have to relay on the DeKalb bypass which only hooks up to the express tracks at Pacific.
Will weekday 4th Avenue service patterns continue, with the N and W running express, and the M and R running local? It seems like that could be retained.
There's probably going to be loads of confusion for Manhattan-to-Brooklyn riders in the early overnight hours M-F when they wait for N trains that won't be coming for four hours and only see Ws.
There's probably going to be loads of confusion for Manhattan-to-Brooklyn riders in the early overnight hours M-F when they wait for N trains that won't be coming for four hours and only see Ws.
N service begins running at 5:30. Few riders will be confused at this time of the morning, and they will adjust.
Probably we will see R32s and Slants (maybe also R42s when R143s bump them off the L) on the W because of the expanded W service. The weekend/late-night N should run express, because it has to turn at Pacific on the express tracks. I'm sure weekday N/W express and M/R local service on 4th Avenue will remain.
So, judging by that, the W stops at DeKalb Avenue on Weekends.
W service will run between Stillwell Av-Astoria 24 hours. W service will operate via Broadway Express & Manhattan Bridge Mon-Fri 5:30am-Midnight. All other times, W service will operate via Broadway Local & Montague St Tunnel (via Whitehall Street) when N service is not running.
Hmmm, I can't resist:
I told you so!
W service will run between Stillwell Av-Astoria 24 hours. W service will operate via Broadway Express & Manhattan Bridge Mon-Fri 5:30am-Midnight. All other times, W service will operate via Broadway Local & Montague St Tunnel (via Whitehall Street) when N service is not running.
Hmmm, I can't resist:
I told you so!
All Q service (express and local) will terminate at Brighton Beach
When Q Diamond trains end their runs at night, they currently discharge all passengers at Brighton Beach and run light to Stillwell yard.
Starting 9/8/02, where will Q Diamond trains lay up when their runs are over? Will they still run light to Stillwell Yard or lay up in the elevated "yard" between Brighton Beach & Ocean Pkwy?
--Mark
Track #2 will be left available at Stillwell Avenue for moves between the Brighton Line and Coney Island Yard.
David
I think those that live along the affected lines should make a big fuss, as the Chinatown community did over the loss of Brooklyn service from a single station, Grand Street.
Because of the protest, they got extended hours on the Brooklyn M train as well as other concessions.
We should demand that service be reopened to Sea Beach Terminal and bring F and Q trains into a revived Culver Depot. The Brighton would be the easier line to bring to the surface, as it could be ramped down on the private right-of-way south of Sheepshead. Culver trains could be brought into Culver Depot through a connection from Coney Island Yard.
It would create employment too. You would need people to flag traffic and guard crossings on Brighton Beach Avenue.
And where would these "Sea Beach Terminal" and "Culver Depot" be?
- Lyle Goldman
Where they were before:
Read this: Early Rapid Transit in Brooklyn, 1878 to 1913
Exactly. Or almost exactly. You'd have to tear down a few furniture stores for the entrance to Sea Beach Terminal, but you could rebuild that nice elephant hotel.
For Culver Depot I guess we'd have to fit the trackage and platforms within the confines of the housing project walkways, To make it up to the residents for the loss of their walking space (temporarily) we will have to include the scenic railway in the rebuild, and give them free tickets.
Oh, come on! Even I wouldn't recommend something like that, and I am one of the many people who will be affected by these changes. How about some shuttle train service on the F and Q lines to West Eighth Street? That way all stations would be served, and all they might have to build would be a few switches.
- Lyle Goldman
Awww... have some imagination, It's not like some people I knew years ago who dreamed of taking over the subway, restoring the nickel fare and putting Coppersides back on the IRT! :)
On second thought ...
The shuttle train will interfere with yard access through Stillwell Avenue. Shuttle busses are more than enough to serve the people at the closed stations.
If the line was built today, it would probably end at Brighton Beach.
That notwithstanding, there's a broader issue. The subway administration today does renovations more at their own convenience than the public's. This has been a long downhill road.
A third track and other major changes were made to three of the four Manhattan els with no service interruption longer than 20 minutes.
The East New York Junction of the Broadway, Fulton and Canarsie Lines was rebuilt and reconfigured under traffic. If you have seen whatthe junction looked like before and what it look like now, this is amazing. They even had to jack up the structure in some places to make it higher while still running trains.
Maybe you could say it began to slip by the time they switching the Liberty Avenue el from BMT to IND. They took a long weekend to finish the steel and shift the tracks.
Then they had a gap of years with progessively lessened service to Jamaica when they switched from el to Archer Avenue subway.
Now they rebuild Coney Island and have lines stopping short of this major resort in a time frame of years, with mostly buses as a sickly replacement. How much of this is necessity and how much is convenience, because they can get away with it?
Don't even get me started on how long it's taken them to switch Second Avenue el service to the subway.
Maybe you could say it began to slip by the time they switching the Liberty Avenue el from BMT to IND. They took a long weekend to finish the steel and shift the tracks.
No, it was earlier than that. They eliminated the 6th Ave El in 1938 to facilitate building a subway that did not open until 1940.
Maybe you could say it began to slip by the time they switching the Liberty Avenue el from BMT to IND. They took a long weekend to finish the steel and shift the tracks.
No, it was earlier than that. They eliminated the 6th Ave El in 1938 to facilitate building a subway that did not open until 1940.
Good point. And the 6th Avenue El was an important line.
They made the claim that having to underpin the el would be prohibitively difficult and expensive, and maybe this seemed to make sense being that it was during the Great Depression.
Still, I agree with your point. They were so hot to compete with the Fulton L that they built the subway underneath while the el was still running.
The 6th Ave. el remained in service when subway construction started. OTOH streetcar service did come to an end.
I thought they built the 6th Avenue subway while trains were still running on the el.
I thought they built the 6th Avenue subway while trains were still running on the el.
They began building the subway, but at a certain point they argued that underpinning the el was too difficult and that they needed to discontinue service. The IRT didn't want to do this as this was an important line to them--of all the els, the only one to serve the heart of Midtown.
The IRT didn't have any choice as the City had the el condemned. The el stopped running in 1938 and the subway didn't open until late in 1940, so there was no rapid transit service on this key street for about two years.
On the other hand, they did manage to connect the 63rd St tunnel to the QB line (which involves real rearrangement of tracks) without ever closing the QB line during a weekday (maybe even not at all?).
>>Now they rebuild Coney Island and have lines stopping short of this major resort in a time frame of years, with mostly buses as a sickly replacement. How much of this is necessity and how much is convenience, because they can get away with it?<<
At Coney Island They are going to tear down the F and Q structures so I would presume trains won't be able to run on them.
>>Don't even get me started on how long it's taken them to switch Second Avenue el service to the subway.<<
Let's not forget the budget crisis, World Wars and the Great Depression and considering the same people who tried to build the 2 Avenue subway back then arent the same people today. Even though you make a valid point.
The subway administration today does renovations more at their own convenience than the public's. This has been a long downhill road.
It's possible that OSHA regulations make it more difficult to have construction workers on or near in-service tracks.
Get imigrants from farmingdale.
Get imigrants from farmingdale.
Farmingville
You can't compare then with now. Labor today is MUCH more expensive than it was back then, and it is much more expensive to do work like this.
Not disrupting service would be an additional burden to labor.
Prison labor. Thats the only way you can make real public works projects that aren't going to be profitable (skyscrapers for example).
This would be a disaster. Not only would you have difficulty finding skilled labor in a prison, they'd do a have assed job.
(That notwithstanding, there's a broader issue. The subway administration today does renovations more at their own convenience
than the public's. This has been a long downhill road.)
Now that I'm on the inside, and see what is going on, I have a different point of view. You have no idea how many hundreds of millions are flushed down the toilet by the practice of setting up construction, working three hours, tearing down and getting out of the way, setting up again, etc. This really kills signal jobs -- makes 'em take years in addition to inflating the cost.
Consider the Manhattan Bridge. In retrospect, if they could have shut it down for two years and fixed it, wouldn't we be better off?
Now that I'm on the inside, and see what is going on, I have a different point of view. You have no idea how many hundreds of millions are flushed down the toilet by the practice of setting up construction, working three hours, tearing down and getting out of the way, setting up again, etc. This really kills signal jobs -- makes 'em take years in addition to inflating the cost.
Consider the Manhattan Bridge. In retrospect, if they could have shut it down for two years and fixed it, wouldn't we be better off?
We recently saw a similar principle in action in a very different context. Cleanup work at Ground Zero took much less time than expected at least in part because the workers were on 12-hour shifts. As a result, there was one less shift change, with its unavoidable loss of productivity, in each 24-hour period.
This experience helps buttress the case for temporary service shutdowns vs. scheduling subway work around temporary G.O.'s. Yes, it would be disruptive to shut down all service on any line for more than a weekend. But if a shutdown of, say, two weeks were announced far in advance, most people would be able to adjust. Many of them might be able to adjust their work hours for the duration, for example. It wouldn't be easy, and some people would be severely inconvenienced given lack of alternatives, but the overall benefit might well outweigh these issues.
Remember the screams when the N/R local stations from Prince to 28th were closed in one direction for several months?
And this was in an area where the alternatives are tremendous.
It is just as bad with the roadbed replacement.
>>>>I think those that live along the affected lines should make a big fuss, as the Chinatown community did over the loss of Brooklyn service from a single station, Grand Street.
Because of the protest, they got extended hours on the Brooklyn M train as well as other concessions.<<<
THEY JUST LOOKING FOR ATTTENTION! THEY COMPLAINED THAT "LACK OF SUBWAY ACCESS BETWEEN GRAND ST AND BROOKLYN" WILL HURT SURROUNDING GRAND STREET BUSINESS. PLEEZZZZZZ!!! I HAPPEN TO LIVE NEAR GRAND STREET. AND BUSINESS OVER THERE IS JUST DOIN FINE AS USUAL SINCE 7/22/01. THEIR REAL EXCUSE WAS "THEY ARE LAZY TO WALK COUPLE OF BLOCKS TO CANAL STREET STATION." THE DISTANCE OF WALKING ONLY TAKES 3 MINS. THATS WHY THEY ASK MTA FOR M SERVICE HOURS EXTENTION AND SHUTTLE BUS TO TAKE THEM TO CANAL FROM GRAND. AND THEY HATE BEING FAT. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! I LOST FEW POUNDS EVERYDAY WHEN I'M WALK TO CANAL ST STATION TO CATCH THE N TO SCHOOL.
I LOST FEW POUNDS EVERYDAY WHEN I'M WALK TO CANAL ST STATION TO CATCH THE N TO SCHOOL.
Well, at least the trip to school gave you some benefits.
Yeeuuup, burn off few calories by walking few block distance never hurts. I saw few people trying to burn off calories by chasing after the shuttle bus few feets when they barely misses it. HA HA..MAKE ME WANNA LAUGHT.
I used to go jodding every afternoon at 4:05.
But then I wanted to catch the 4:10 train to Merrick. : )
Elias
The folks living at Brightwater Towers might not be too keen on that :)
--Mark
What, having such a great train set for their kids? :)
I can't wait to see how the N and W will be signed in Manhattan -- at Canal, in particular. People will be missing their stops left and right. IMO, the express-local distinction in Manhattan is more important than the West End-Sea Beach distinction in Brooklyn. It would be preferable, IMO, to maintain the N and R as Manhattan locals whenever they run at the expense and possible confusion of sending the N via the Sea Beach on weekdays and the West End on weekends.
A substantial number of crew members will likely be out due to Rosh Hashana both days that weekend. I hope that doesn't make the change more difficult than it needs to be.
Is 9/8 the TA's target date for restoration of service to South Ferry as well?
>>>>>>>>Is 9/8 the TA's target date for restoration of service to South Ferry as well?
No, it only applies to the B division.
A Div will also start 9/8/02
9/8/2002 is the effective date of the IRT pick as well. The schedules in the 9/8/2002 pick will reflect "normal" operation. However, if the South Ferry branch is not ready (which it probably won't be, even though they're going hot and heavy at it), "supplemental" schedules will be operated on the appropriate routes until it is ready.
David
Yes. We are also looking 9-8-02 for the start of the A division pick.
Why do you fellow railfans disrespect the R-44 so much???? The R-44 is my favorite train and I for one cannot take listening to you SubTalkers talk about the R-44 in such disrespect! What is so bad about the Train????????
Kid, you are only fourteen years old. You've got to learn how to respect others' opinions. You might not like their opinions, but you don't need to be angry about these opinions. Some have their emotional reasons; some gives the fact that they are not in good shape, etc.
You have your background for liking the R44s. I have my own background for not liking the R44s. I don't like them because they don't have railfan windows. This started from the 70s when they were on D trains.
One other thing. I don't like your posts with a lot of "HOW DARE" or "THE HELL". SubTalkers' responses to your post reflect the way you post. Because you put too much emotional words on your posts, you may get a lot of sarcastic, ridiculed, and even negative answers.
You can't stand certain opinions because you are too young to learn to listen to different opinions. You only flame the fire if you put emotional words on your post.
Chaohwa
When I do it, I'm kiddin around, I'm not serious, and I do listen to other's opinions, Do you know how hard it is to listen to people bad mouth the R-44??? When I do those things I kid around, that's it.
I understand that feeling when somebody bad-mouths what you like. If he is still that way, don't be bothered by that. Just move on and focus on the meaningful opinions.
Chaohwa
Thanx for the advice.
Woah, I'm glad I'm keeping out of this one. Well I've had an exchange with AcelaExpress2005 on nycrail.com when I badmouthed the Acela Express. I thought that the Acela power cars and HHP-8's lacked class when compared to the AEM-7, especially in the old NEDirect paint. He didn't seem to mind that too much.
How did you know he was 14?
AEM7
How did you know he was 14?
You mean: How did he know that he had 7.8 billion frequent orbital miles?
Surely he didn't claim all of his miles, because some of the time he left is gold platinum executive card at home. I have done this too -- I've left my card at home and couldn't claim my miles. But I got it all back with web booking and double miles promotion bonus miles.
AEM7
Bars sometimes do that too. They require about 11.8 billion miles for people to get alcohol, but if you don't have the card from the department of motor vehicles (because the Earth is a moving vehicle), they won't believe you.
He mentioned his age several times in some of his posts.
Chaohwa
14 is a nice age to be.
Once I knew his age, I let a lot of the more irritating stuff slide off and tried to pick up on the essence of the issue.
Besides, I'd rather be 10 than 54!
Elias
About as hard as it is for me to hear people bad-mouth the R142s!
You can't stand certain opinions because you are too young to learn to listen to different opinions.
How do you know what causes his inability to learn to listen to different opinions? It has nothing to do with the fact that he happened to accrue fewer frequent orbital miles than you.
Also many of the complaints against the R-44 are based largely on emotion and not on fact. The R-44 bashers are often (not always) acting in the same manner that you accuse Acela of acting.
>>>and I for one cannot take listening to you SubTalkers talk about the R-44 in such disrespect! <<
So don't listen.
Yes, I've taken that advice for the R68As. R68s, I don't really like anyway.
Yea, some people criticize about the whirring sound on the R68/a when it moves fast, but i personally like it.
I love the sounds of all 75' Cars to be honest, I favorite sound is when the R-44 makes the sounds before it takes off.
I also like that whistle like sound of the R-44 when it's rolling.
Hey! I like the sounds that the R1-9s made!
That is waht subway trains were SUPPOSED to sound like!
Elias
I'll second that.
I prefer the Lo-V sounds over the R1-9s.
That whistle sound you're referring to was usually present on everything from the R10 on up to the R42 - prior to their rebuilds. I guess the whistle sound comes from the drive gear on the trucks using smaller teeth or possibly a different gear configuration.
Once the train would get beyond 20MPH or so, you could begin to hear the whistle if you listened carefully.
I recall a ride on some R27s on the 6th Avenue Express from 34 to W4 where speed was good and the whining whistling noise combined with rumble under the floor were louder than anything you'd hear on a newer train.
HEY...I love the whirring sound of the R 68s.
But, it's just a matter of personal opinion.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was refering to those week long posts discussing the speeds. ::snore::
Since when does it move fast?? :o>
The Circle "Q", slow boat to Brighton...
wayne
Because the R44 came in as a DOG, it has remained a DOG, even after GOH, and has never seen a credible MDBF. St. Louis laid a big egg, no wonder it got out of car building.
HEY...I happen to like the R-44...and I'm an old fart...
Peace,
ANDEE
Remind me to stay upwind... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, there are good, factual reasons to dislike that car class.
They were lemons several times over, not only with the original
control and brake equipment, but also after replacement with
the Westcode system. Their MDBF is still not so hot even today,
but I think they are beating the R142s. The cabs are by far the
most uncomfortable among all cars running today, if not all
time (excepting perhaps the early BRT MU cars where the
motorman stood out on the open platform). Oh, and of course,
there is no RAILFAN WINDOW (Salamlalah are you listening?)
Other than that, they're fine.
I thought that they were the cats meow.
But I only knew them when they were new.
By 1980 I had moved back to Long Island, and was riding the LIRR until 1983 when I moved to North Dakota.
They got a prety abrupt way of emptying cars on *this* line!
Elias
They were lemons when they were new! All the new engieering, testing, reinventing the wheel and they still bombed. So they order the big R46 order, slightly better. But I couldn't help but like the [censored] things...they had a charm of their own and were so much kinder for the butt and the eyes than previous cars like the R32-42.It was nice to get cross seating again, the colors, ersatz panelling, and of course the length.
Yer going soft on us, Uncle Ed. I *loathed* the things. Nice to ride but hell, you'd almost want to snooze in the cab. :)
No trigger boxes, either.:-)
What can I say, bro ... I was 19 at the time. Climbing on the cars while they were in motion was almost like SURFING. And at that age, you're dumb enough to not think you might be wheel meat. :)
I loved what I did years after I stopped doing it, am perpetually amazed that I *did* do it and given a choice at my age now, I'd rather be locked in the broom closet. But back then, them Arnines were the teats. Definitely your father's Oldsmobile. I loved 'em. And the chickies were most impressed too. Heh.
Hey, I always got a kick out of watching the conductor work the trigger boxes. Often dreamed of doing it myself. When I assumed the position between 100 and 484 at the Transit Museum and took hold of the trigger boxes (back when you still could), the first words out of my mouth were, "Man, I always wanted to do this!" I figure that while it would be fun to run 1689 at Shoreline someday, I'd rather work the doors.
Did you ever click the trigger caps as your train left a station before climbing down? I used to see conductors do that all the time.
But of course ... not that it did anything of course once the train closed up. But like a desktop, it was something to slap for the hell of it. For many, it was a "nervous tick" kinda thing. You also didn't want your hands to be too far away from something to grab either since you had to back up to get out of the footholds. Damn, I miss those cars and the sad thing is where you have only ONE Arnine to play with, you can't assume the position. I would GUESS that at Branford, you reach for them out the cab window. That's CHEATING. :)
Oh, I managed to keep both feet on one step plate while holding on to the trigger box back in 1980 - all of this while 1689 was MOVING! We were rolling down the track and I was having a blast opening and closing the doors. Eddie S. didn't like to too much. He kept yelling, "HEY!!!" when we got too rowdy.
I'm surprised 1689 didn't dump ... the arnines would dump if they started to roll with the doors open. That must have gotten cut out. I *do* hope you had another car for the other foot. Hanging onto the chains ain't no fun. :)
The doors on 1689 were initially closed when we got rolling. I started having fun as we were headed away from Narrangansett (sp) Siding (the area where the barns are located). And no, 1689 was by its lonesome. I had both feet on one step plate and held on to the trigger box with both hands. At the time, I didn't know about the trick you told me you used (moving both triggers at once), so I moved them one at a time. IIRC they weren't stiff at all - possibly because the car was charged up.
I also worked the doors while 1689 was parked and Eddie was working on it. The pole was up, the fans were running, the compressor was cutting in and out - and I was loving it!
You were a brave man there ... after I lost a step plate one morning, I wasn't about to trust my weight to any ONE piece of metal knowing that rust had been setting in. If 1689 wasn't modified though, she should have dumped if she was moving if the doors were opened ... I don't remember the details, but there was a cutout that could be applied that would allow you to run them with the doors open (and I don't mean the M/M bypass switch, there was a valve that could be cutout that wouldn't BIE the train but I forget the detail after all these years) ...
But if she wasn't rolling, then you could waste air to your heart's content. :)
I thought the doors on prewar cars (R-1/9s anyway) did not interlock with the master controller and that a train could run with them open. I do remember seeing an OOS prewar train deadheading through 59th St. once and most if not all of its doors were open. Maybe they were cut out as you suggested.
I take back what I said about having both feet on one step plate on 1689. One foot was on the step plate and the other was on the pantograph gate. What can I say - it's been almost 22 years. Luckily neither let go - Eddie would have killed me if falling off the car hadn't accomplish that first.:-)
Yeah, got the ugly lesson in "rollbacks" in school car ... I don't remember what the specs were - stuck in my mind was "one revolution" but they'd dump unless you ran them in bypass mode. It was a wonderful way of airing them out on a windless day, but you had hell to pay if you had geese on board and decided to do that. Often it ran through my mind how efficient it would have been to just open up while the train was in motion and dump 'em on the platform while I made up time. :)
What are "Trigger Boxes"?
The picture of a conductor holding onto them on an R-10 was posted here recently ... click HERE to see it again, the triggers are on the underside of the boxes, the "bottle caps" are on top. You pulled the triggers towards you underneath to open the doors, and popped the caps on top to close up in the air-operated doors days.
Or more specifically, the pre-R-15 days.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the "air-OPERATED" days ended with the R11?
The R-11s had electric door engines, but kept the trigger boxes. Same deal with the R-12s and R-14s.
Yep, we ARE singing from the same sheet then, just hung up on different details. :)
Guess I'd call it a love-hate relationship. I may be soft on a lot of things [I admit it] but not on THAT subject. Actally it was the R46 that put me to sleep---big time, had to be the air ride. The R10,12,14 did too, they rode with more of a roll it seemed. Chicks..I got a few smiles in my conductor days on R1-9 but wish I had gotten more.
Heh. Just needed to check in on ya, buddy ... I guess it was just the old timey cars, but enjoying anything north of an R10 counts as blasphemy in my book. :)
Too bad the two of you never worked together as a crew.
I would have seriously liked that ... although it's QUITE possible that Ed and I passed each other at Stillwell on our way to our trains. If so, Ed may remember a skinny tall kid with relatively short hair, blue eyes and a mustache who always wore a blue linen shirt with the top two buttons open, jeans, and a leather tag that I had my badge and ID on and a long brass set of keys that bounced back and forth in front of my knees as I walked, aviator glasses ... let's see if it seems familiar. I was 19 at the time ...
It would have been straight out of the talk-about-a-small-world category. Sounds as if you were describing your appearance from your motorman days. Conductors wear their uniforms to work, right?
Even then, yep ... the old TA "monkey suit" ... aside from the microphone necklace, it hasn't changed much either. The reason I provided that description is that to motormen, all monkey suits looked pretty much alike and the hat obscured the hair ... unless it pooked out of course. Back in those days, most conductors were country cowfreak whereas I looked pretty straight. I got better. :)
and were so much kinder for the butt and the eyes than previous cars like the R32-42.
The R40-40M's have to have the worst seats in the system! Very uncomfortable.
Ever sit on an R17/21/22? Even worse.
Best! The ones on the R-32 don't extend much to support the knees. While the R-40s properly support the thighs.
But I couldn't help but like the [censored] things...they had a charm of their own and were so much kinder for the butt and the eyes than previous cars like the R32-42.It was nice to get cross seating again, the colors, ersatz panelling, and of course the length.
Eh. Plastic molded seats. I don't find them any more comfy than the bench seats. Less so, actually, if you're next to someone taking up part of your seat. I have mixed feelings about the cross-seating too--more seats, but it feels cramped. I DO like the blue stripe motiff that the R40M, R42, R44 and R46 came with, and think the look of all four were hurt when the stripe was removed in GOH. The 44 and 46 now are big, featureless, and grey. Not pretty at all. I don't like the cheapo looking fake wood panels on the interior. They look cheap, and very 1970's---and not in a good way!
:-) Andrew
I DO like the blue stripe motiff that the R40M, R42, R44 and R46 came with, and think the look of all four were hurt when the stripe was removed in GOH.
I think it also messed up the LIRR M's also. Metro-Norths M's look much better with the blue stripe (or red stripe for ConnDOT). Again it looks like the LIRR is treated differently than MN. WHy did MN keep it's blue stripes, and LIRR had them memoved?
yellow look good on the LIRR
I don't like the yellow that much, and besides, the blue went along the whole side and front. The yellow is just in the front.
I agree with you 100%. I find the molded seats less comfortable than the Redbird-style seats whether or not someone's sitting next to me. And the interior walls are all plastic. Yuck. That's one of the flaws in the R-142/142A/143, too.
Well, in fairness, I'm pretty sure that ALL the subway interiors in NYC are plastic, except for the redbirds which are painted something or other.
:-) Andrew
That "something or other" would be rust. :)
Actually, come to think of it the R42 has those stainless steel pannels, and of course the R62/62A/68/68A have those cheery almost-all-silver interiors. But the R32, R38, R40s, R40M, R142, R142A, and R143 seem to be all plastic inside, just ike the R44 and R46.
:-) Andrew
Sorry for falling on your shoes again, but couldn't resist a cheap shot (oh, I'm SO predicatable) ... "plastic good, wood bad" ... "wood burn, plastic melt" ... somehow KHAKI on rolled steel did it for me. While it's nice to have nice looking cars and all, they all seem so much like toasters on wheels to me ... subway cars were MEANT to be ugly and utilitarian. If you want art, go to a museum. Subway cars are "boxes that move people" ...
Anyone wanna venture to guess at who I'm quoting?
The R-32, R-38, R-40, and R-40M interior walls appear to me to be painted metal of some sort, just like in the Redbirds.
Supposedly it's a graffiti-proof finish.
the R62/62A/68/68A have those cheery almost-all-silver interiors
Unfortunately, that (along with the poor state of the windows) is what makes the 68's so beat looking. The silver interiors do not take scratchitti well at all.
Although the silver interiors are somewhat beat, the windows are really the main part of the problem. Of course, those are essentially the same on the R62/62A/68/68A as on any other car.
:-) Andrew
I have no objections to the R44 per se, I actually prefer it to the R46 due to the nicer interior detailing (especially that nice panel by the door), but they don't ride as well as they used to, they rattle and clatter and they're bumpy at full speed. And the A/C is often weak.
I remember the R44 fondly when new and in "F" service.
wayne
Given a choice, I prefer the R-46 over the R-44. The 46s look better without that carbon steel band.
Of course, no one will ever mistake either for an R-10.
Newsflash: The R44 is fast. So is the R46. They both could probably give an R10 a good race.
Not all 75' cars move like molassas on a January morning.
From the standpoint of the train crews, the R44 cab is tiny. The R46 cab is spacious.
The door to the cabs is ridiculously small.
That's why they're equipped with shoe paddles so you can stuff yourself in the cab if need be. :)
A shoe horn would do the trick.:-)
A couple of bags of bearing grease would help too. :)
A nice big chain saw with a chain for metal.
The R44s have 2 problems...
On the transverse seat handrestit shouldnt have that top thing, it makes it so uncomfortable...
ITS DOOR MOTORS ARE SO SLOW!!!!!!!
Yeah, they remind me of the doors on the BMT standards.
I like the Door Motors the way they are, I don't like fast doors, The Doors motors being slow is what makes the R-44's so terrific.
I love the R44, but their mechanical record is not good.
If they had wings the R-44 would be a true turkey. The excuse prior to GOH was they were State of the Art trains mandated by the DOT to get federal funding. The technology didn't work in a subway environment.
After GOH, they were made more like SMEE cars but they still went "gobble gobble". The air brake system is an orphan as is the door system. There are also structural issues that have never been resolved. The cars are less dependable and more labor intensive than all of the other 75 foot cars. It's really not a question of respect. It's a matter of appreciating the other NYCT cars more for performing their tasks better than the R-44 does.
>>If they had wings the R-44 would be a true turkey.<<
That figures, don't they operate throught the CRANBERRY St. tubes !!
Bill "Newkirk"
lol.....grab the hook..........
hahhahahahahaahhahahahah.... That'll teach me to keep my keyboard shut.
Rim shot!!!
where is the RAILFAN WINDOW on the R 44-46 ...???
hmmmmmmm??...........eh ??
Presumebly, it is the newspapered and really tinted window at the front of the train. I don't believe anyone who tries to convince me of such though.
oh yea 2 bad it is transverse cab equipped !!!
!!!!
might as well B ridin' da' underground in england ............
That is the one bad thing about when I go there this summer, there aren't any railfan windows. I'll manage though, don't the trains have interior LED signs? Those can pass the time while I wish I was standing through the railfan wi- Oops! It isn't there...
yea if U can git' a ride with the motorman !!
he he he he he he he he he ...........................lol!
Or montreal. No see through!
Or Staten Island. When I railfanned (hah!) the Staten Island rapid transit line a couple weeks ago, I noticed that they covered up the cab door window on their R44s with a beige plastic cover. Guess you don't have to go all the way to London or Montreal or Bangkok for "windowless" trains anymore.
There is a reason they make PORTABLE gasoline containers; though I would think there isn't really much to burn on a train :-<
"though I would think there isn't really much to burn on a train :-< "
Ask the Egyptian Railroads about *that* one.
Elias
The one thing I hated to see in the 70s and 80s was subway grafitti. Even as a child in the early 70s I viewed it as disgusting. Only a knucklehead would call it art. There is nothing artistic in defacing public property and I resented seeing destination signs and maps blotted out due to some idiot's warped definition of artistic expression. Those caught doing it should have been locked up for fifty years, I don't care how young or how black they were. It was a disgrace, period!
E_DOG
There is nothing artistic in defacing public property
There is nothing about graffiti that would make it any less artistic just because it's illegal. It might be WRONG, but that doesn't mean that some of it couldn't be considered art.
Nevertheless, very little graffiti fell under such a classification. Most of it was pure rubbish, and even that which could be considered art was often an incredibly annoying disruption, covering up windows and signs.
I was very little in the last days of graffiti. I missed it and I'm glad I did. I wouldn't want it to return.
Those caught doing it should have been locked up for fifty years.
Cruel and unusual punishment.
Well afgan prisoners are treated that way and no complainers are heard.
Sorry, but it isn't cruel and unusual when the people are murderers, and are even allowed to wear turbans and are given food.
They live BETTER than they did in Afghanistan.
Well then, I guess you see some equivalency between terrorism and murdering 3,000 American citizens with kids who tag tunnel walls. Great thought processes !!!!
I agree I'm Black also I think its disgusting it looks like a society out of control to me being a subway lover myself.
Whoa, I think you guys need a reality check. Are you assuming that most (if not all) graffiti vandals are black? That's a pretty dangerous assumption and not true. Are you saying that to be anti-graffiti makes you an uncle Tom? I would have thought that we got rid of that kind of thinking in the 60s and 70s. I'm quite sure that the majority of blacks and hispanics and orientals and middle eastern and lesbian eskimoes are as anti graffiti and pro lawful behavior as us white-folk.
Graffiti vandals are ............. graffiti vandals - regardless of race. People who respect public property and don't like to see it defaced come in all races, all shapes and both sexes. They (we) are the majority.
Thanks guys...nice to know there are a few responsible adults out there. The Redbirds are sloppily painted internally with a graffiti-resistant coating BUT the only windows un-scratchittied are those we have replaced...usually because the deep markings in the glass resulted in cracks. I'd like to see some of the vandals bust a gut changing out some glass BUT the work can be hazardous and does require care and safety equipment. R142s are an easy target because they were never designed for the NYC environs. CI Peter
R142s are an easy target because they were never designed for the NYC environs.
Isn't that a little dumb? How can the cars not be designed for the NYC environs? They knew for 10 years that scratchiti is still in full forse on the subway. WHy would they not design the cars to be more resistant to it. How can the MTA be so dumb to not "design a car for the NYC subway enviroment?" Aren't they built especially for NYC?
Having ridden the R-142s every day for several months, I have never seen any scratchitti on a single subway car so far.
I have a technical question: How do we make scratchfitti-proof windows? Are they made of a scratch-resistant polycarbonate, like eyeglasses? Or is it some special silicate glass formulation maybe?
As a polymer chemists I'm curious.
Mark
I believe that they put on a "sacrifical layer" of plastic or whatever on the windows and they can easily replace it when it gets scrathed.
Just put a layer of acid underneath a plastic sheet that is glued to the windows. So when the metal blade goes on it will baddly rust away very quickly forcing the punk to get a new blade. After being exposed to air for some minutes the acid will neutrilize as so not hurt other people.
Why not place an ion barrier between the layers of mylar? In this way if some miscreant punk cuts through a layer of mylar he'll break the ion beam witht he blade and the radiation will be transmitted through the blade - into his hand. hey wait, why don't we use mylar sheets coated with kryptonite? No regular knife or boxcutter can cut mylar sheets made with kryptonite. Every kid knows that....
TD: good retort! (LOL!)
Um, sorry kryptonite is a noble gas at room tempurature. Not a rock/solid!
Err, sorry but krypton is a noble gas. Kryptonite is a green rock that glows at room temp. I thought we all knew that.
Kryptonite doesn't exist. It only exists in Superman comics.
Krypton, on the other hand, is a real substance, and is a noble gas.
Mark
Kryptonite doesn't exist. It only exists in Superman comics.
Precisely the point :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess there are two people here on whom humor is lost.
Just two?
-Hank
Um, sorry kryptonite is a noble gas at room tempurature. Not a rock/solid! Goto http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Kr/key.html for some info on Krypton. Or go here for a google search on it.
Even when you read it, you still get it wrong...........
When I did 'carbody' on the R142, there was a panic searching for an 'installation kit.' The windows have a thick, adhesive coated mylar film. Very simply, a small knife peels up an edge that you can pull, remove the damaged film, scrape away any remaining 'glue' and spray the window with 'Windex' before applying the new mylar precut sheet. Squeegee out remaining liquid and the sheet bonds in about an hour or two. The mylar is pretty vandal resistant...the fibreglas seating is not. CI Peter
Will it scratch if attacked by a carbide blade?
Right you are, Train Dude.
In fact, many vandals are upper middle class teens and young adults and there are some who come from overseas on graffitti tour trips. I recall MTA announcing the arrest of a guy from the Scandinavian countries who brougght his sketchpad, graffitti materials, etc., along with phone numbers of people who would bring him along when they raided a subway yard.
Actually the Transit Bureau are constantly looking to bust a crew from Germany. What really amazes me is that 50 years into the 'civil rights movement' and we still have some people who are worried that if they are law-abiding, they'll be viewed as Uncle Toms. Maybe I overestimated the progress.
I wouldn't go that far Ron.
Upper-middle class? Come on Ron. The truth is, graffiti was extremely popular among middle-class and lower middle-class whites at it's peak. Ridgewood, Queens, which was the capital of lower to middle class white NYC in the 80's, was the inspiration for such graffitti movies as "Beat Street", and another movie whose title I can't remember, but it's about a white Ridgewood resident, who destroys the M line with the name "King 65".
Let me know when Bayside is the setting for a movie based on Graffitti. Watch out for those bad ass vandals on Springfield Blvd Ron. They may tag the mailbox on your corner.
I can see why E_Dog feels that he's an "Uncle Tom" for being opposed to graffitti. While I would agree that most minorities detest graffitti, the truth is, it's has been popularized and accepted in so many ways in many minority neighborhoods, and used in marketing to minorities over the years, thus causing somewhat of an identity conflict. When an international franchise like Wendy's pays graffitti artists to create a mural for one of their Bronx locations which reads, "Wendy's Rules the Night", it speaks volumes about the perceived relationship between graffitti, and urban residents. But I'll never associate graffitti with minorites since I saw first hand, just how involved middle class whites were in the popularization of graffitti. But I'll never agree with Ron's statement that "many vandals are upper class teens".
I think of all this in terms of being Italian. While most Americans may have seen John Gotti as a criminal, the truth is, he's a hero in many Italian-American neighborhoods. Example; OZONE PARK and HOWARD BEACH. On one hand, you hear and read about Gotti's activities in the news, but see the respect he gets in those neighborhoods, and may begin to believe that he's a positive in the community.
You're not an 'Uncle Tom' (maybe an Uncle E_Dog, though ;-D )
My Two Cents: Graffiti was a nasty scourge during the 70's that was perpetrated by different ethnic groups, depending on neighborhood. However, for whatever reasons, hispanics seemed to be at the forefront of the graffiti mess related to the subway system.
Reasons why it spiraled out of control? There's a number of reasons, but most significantly, the parents of these jokers who didn't keep tabs on their offspring once the sun went down. I remember having to be home for dinner, do homework and then have freetime for games (at home, mind you). I would never have been caught dead after 8 at night on the street, let alone invading subway yards!
Obviously, the MTA has to bear some of the blame for making their yards easily trespassable. Certainly, razor wire and more vigilant security measures made a difference. As well, hardware stores have over the years taken steps to prevent the underaged from easy access to spray cans (most are behind fenced-in shelving).
I must point out that though I detest the graffiti that covered our city's rolling stock (and stations) during the 'bad ol' days', I'll admit that the murals I see nowadays on some storefronts and handball courts are quite beautiful and interesting. As an example: at the NYC Model Transit Show from a couple of weeks back there was a 'graffiti artists' table (complete with O-gauge Redbirds dressed in authentic graffiti -- by a real 70's 'artist'). At the table -- in various sizes -- were T-shirts featuring a graffiti mural of an R-21/22 type in 70's silver/blue stripe with a dedication to 'NYCTA 9/11/01 -- Together We Stand'. I would've picked one up if I hadn't 'lighten my wallet' on various other 'goodies' earlier on.
As well, hardware stores have over the years taken steps to prevent the underaged from easy access to spray cans (most are behind fenced-in shelving).
A crime against humanity.
What do you mean by that?
It is not racist as you seem to imply. Rather, many young minority men (African-Americans, Hispanics) were known to buy up cans of spray paint for the specific purpose of using them them on the subways. Was that profiling? Mayby, but a lot of store owners concluded (in some cases wrongly of course) that these kids were not going to use these cans to spray paint models or the like at home. The graffiti epidemic was unfortunately so bad at the time that such drastic measures were necessary.
E_DOG
It is not racist as you seem to imply.
Are you talking about me? I don't call anything racist because I don't believe in these mythical races (obviously there are those that do and are racist, so there is racism).
In any case, not selling spraypaint to people under 18 is just another way of scapegoating the one group that can't vote. It's much easier to block by age than by citizenship or previous condition of incarceration.
Will the B Train return back to Brooklyn anytime soon?? And will the D & Q Train be normal again in Brooklyn?? I don't like the 2 Q's in Bklyn.
Probably when work on the Manny B is done in 2004, like it has been numerously stated on this board.
The B won't be going to Brooklyn as long as the North Side of the bridge is closed. How do you plan on running it to Brooklyn now anyway?
I didn't have a Plan on how the B Train could get into brooklyn. If the North Side of the Bridge is closed then how is the W and Q & Q Diamond get over it?
Perhaps you should read the excellent Manhattan Bridge FAQ Sheet. There's an immense amount of information on this site coupled with a perfectly good search engine, so there's no excuse not to check it before posting a question....
Simple. Rename the "W" as the "B", and put in place two "D" services, one Diamond Express and One Circle local. There's your "B".
The Q and W use the South Side...
That's why the Broadway express, and the bridge Canal Street station was closed when they were working on the south side. Then only 6th Ave service ran on the bridge through the Grand St station (and of course the B and D were able to run to Brooklyn.
I know that
Sorry, I meant it for Acela, I was just adding to what you said.......
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=340661
HERES A PLAN TO RETURN THE B TO BROOKLYN. SCROLL ALL W R-68A/R-68 SIGNS BACK TO B. AND CHANGE (EITHER ONE), ALL CIRCLE OR DIAMOND Q TO T. ITS SIMPLE! NOW YOU HAVE B RUNNING TWO SECTIONS. BEDFORD and 34; and Astoria and STILLWELL. AND YOU HAVE Q AND T RUNNING VIA BRIGHTON LINE. SPEAKING OF B. WHATEVER HAPPEN TO YELLOW B D SIGNS? I USE RIDE THOSE TRAINS WHEN I WAS 4 (IN 1983 B4 SIDE MANNY B CLOSED DOWN). R THEY STILL ON THE ROLLSIGN OR R THEY DOOMED?
Your caps key is stuck.
You had better get it fixed, cause we can't read that stuff.
Elias
Noooope, there's nothing wrong with mah Caps keys. I'm just havin fun here.
Well, it's not fun for those of us with old eyes :( As Elias said, we can't read it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
lol.....it seems to be hard even for those of us with young eyes....I had trouble with it myself!
Ah HA HA HA HA...LOL U GUYS R SO FUNNY. :)
The last time they did that, people got confused with having two B and two Ds. That is why we now have the W and the two Qs. I would have made the West End the T and the Brighton Local the W. The orange circle Q could just have its color and shape changed to the yellow diamond Q.
And I agree with Elias, please don't use all caps, it is hard to read.
The north side tracks lead only to 6th Avenue. The south side tracks lead only to Broadway. Why do you think all those changes were implemented last summer?
A crazy one would be to run the B to Marcy av, turn around and run via Nassau to 4av. Personally, i wouldn't supporrt this plan but I'm just saying.
Yeah... well, that bridge is closed too sort of, isn't it?
Not for the amount of time the MB is closed. I think they are using one track on the WB as work is being done on the bridge. At least the line is open for through trains.
"At least the line is open for through trains."
On 24 minute headways. *That* ought to be real useful for the (B) Train!
and oh BTW... If you put the (B) there, where are you going to put the (M), or were we thinking 48 minute headways....
WoW
You haven't been paying much attention for the past year eh?
Nah not really
Then you should educate yourself before you clutter up the board with questions the next joe passenger can answer.
late 2004, when the Manhattan bridge repairs are completed (fingers crossed).
Or not. That's the way things are when one starts with a clean slate, as NYCT is doing in developing its post-2004 service plan.
David
Let's all please stop this "clean slate" stuff once the bridge is fully operational. While nothing has been decided and many service patterns will be proposed and considered, we can all assume a few things: B & D service returning to the north side, N & Q service running on the south side.
I will not stop this "clean slate" stuff. I have talked to the guy RUNNING THE COMPUTER SIMULATIONS FOR THE VARIOUS SERVICE PLANS. He sits four floors above my office. He assures me that just about anything that is physically possible to do is being looked at -- and he ought to know, since HE IS THE ONE DOING IT.
David
gotta wait untill 2004 for the B and D to return to normal again.and by then the Q will remain on Broadway,hopefully.also hopefully the W will remain on West End,ending at Bay Parkway,and the M moves to 95th St with the R.although with the changes beginning on Sept.8th meaning that both Q's are gonna end at Brighton Beach,one of the Q's should be renamed just like the B was in Brooklyn.that way there wont be any confusion,if any.
this is reminicent of the post i made on bustalk entitled "Li Bus Trip" read it and you'll see what happened in regards to this.
correction,its entitled "Li Bus Trip Yesterday" and its on bustalk.
Tough luck, man. You're going to have 2+ years wait for that to happen. The Q's coulda have been better named, maybe something like the T or the H or something like that. But still, B'll be back...so hold on tight.
I'd rather use the (T) for the (W), (W) for the (Q), and (Q) for the . The (T) ran the same as the (W) except it terminates at 57th/7av all times via the Manhattan Br therefore making this a better name for the Bdwy B than the W. It was eliminated after the Chrystie St connection was built.
When you want to make the diamond Q symbol, you need to put spaces between the Q and the < and >, like this: < Q > Otherwise, it is recognized as an HTML code.
Hopefully NEVER! Long live the "T" (ok - er.... "W")
The men's restroom at Flatbush Avenue on the LIRR is really something marvelous. It has been completely renovated. All of the facilities are no-touch - the urinals and toilets flush automatically upon the user's departure, the sinks operate via sensor and there are hot air hand dryers so there are no wet paper towels lying around. Most impressively, the restroom is closed for 10 minutes every hour for cleaning!
Also - I think the restroom at 71st-Continental Ave's station in Forest Hills on the E/F/G/V is also open, or at least it was the last time I was at that station a few weeks ago.
Amazing.......maybe there's hope after all.
I tried to go into the Flatbush Avenue restroom a few months ago. It was unspeakably filthy.
"It was unspeakably filthy. "
Do Tell!
On most days the Flatbush Terminal bathroom smelled like a sewage treatment facility....GAWD AWFUL! (almost as bad as the restrooms on the LIRR M-1s!).
Where is it?
When will the MTA E-mail service open up?? When the E-mail opens up, us SubTalkers will be able to give suggestions on what they need to do with the Trains.
I think that's one of the reasons they never bothered to open it in the first place :-)
Ain't THAT the truth! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Are you kidding?
We'll wind up overloading it so much that they would shut it down.
I would have to agree with you on that, because us Railfans would be sending them tons of E-mail. I would ask if they can modify the R-44, into a better train, even though they would probably say no.
They'd give you a shitty canned response and say thank you for caring, we don't give a shit.
Clayton,
Watch the language.
>>I would ask if they can modify the R-44, into a better train, even though they would probably say no.<<
Modifying or overhauling the R-44 fleet won't happen. Replacing them with R-160's and scrapping them will happen.
Bill "Newkirk"
"Modifying or overhauling the R-44 fleet won't happen. Replacing them with R-160's and scrapping them will happen."
Who, besides the people on this board, has said this? Not MTA; not NYCT.
David
So you replace a railfan windows thats good for a transverse with one that gives you cross-eyed vision?
mta e-mailing coventions are thus....the first 2 letters and the first five letters of the recipients name....plus either mta or nyct dot com.....does that help you?
Peace,
ANDEE
Could you give us an example, please? Preferably a realistic one?
- Lyle Goldman
example: IF HErman MUNSTer had an NYCT E-mail address it would be:
HEMUNST@NYCT.COM.
Peace,
ANDEE
You can send your MTA customer comments, complaints and suggestions email to: mtacaresreallytheydo@dev.nul
You know Unix/Linux I see! But it is /dev/null
You can't use slash marks in an email addy or domain:
2.3.5 Domain
A domain (or domain name) consists of one or more dot-separated
components. These components ("labels" in DNS terminology [22]) are
restricted for SMTP purposes to consist of a sequence of letters,
digits, and hyphens drawn from the ASCII character set [1].
All the gorey details can be read here.
> When will the MTA E-mail service open up?
Where did you hear about an MTA e-mail service?
- Lyle Goldman
What is code to put in, so you can post Links, and pictures?
LINKS:
(A HREF="url")Text(/A)
Replace url with the URL to which the link will point (be sure to make it an absolute link with http:// and all), and KEEP THE QUOTES.
Replace text with the text of the link
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: Replace ( with < and ) with >
I had to use parentheses since the browser would otherwise think I was actually typing the code for a link!
IMAGES:
(IMG SRC="url" ALT="alttext")
Replace url with the URL of the image. The image must already be on the internet someplace. Remember that most free webhosts will not allow image posting, it will be replaced by a broken image or a dummy image. In that case, create a small website for it and link to that.
Also, ALT is optional, your > can immediately follow the URL of the image. If you do include alt, whatever replaces alttext will be displayed when you point to the image for a few seconds (put a short description or something there).
As with links, replace )( with ><
link
Sort of like this
Thanks for the Codes Pig.
There seems to be a lot of fiery opinions on grafitti--which is to be expected.
The question that was asked- should it be remembered as art or annoyance, is set up to cause the debate. I don't say this in a critical way. Maybe he should have just asked our opinions on it, regardless of how it will be remembered.
It WILL be remembered, not matter HOW it's remembered...like lots of history, BECAUSE it's human history, different sides will have different opinions on it. It's like talking about a war...who you're talking to determines the opinions you'll get. The only facts you can say are that in the late 70's, there was a phenomenon called grafitti, which was painting done on subway trains, etc.
That's the beauty of history, it depends on who is writing the book.
One book will say "art", another will say "garbage", mine will simply say that it existed, and it was what it was.
Why does graffiti has to be history? Out here in railroad land, it lives on... partly because many cars hadn't seen a coat of paint since the early 1980s (many still in Rock Island colors), but I've also seen them dated as recently as 2001... and on fresh aluminum cars that are on unit train duties...
AEM7
My response was in context to the question....I believe as far as the NYC subway is concerned, graffitti IS history, at least as far as the cars themselves are concerned.
Plus, any subway history which didn't mention it would be inaccurate.
Graffiti is hardly history on NYC trains, ask some of our Subtalkers who work in the yards, they'll tell you that quite often there are bombed clean cars. They just get cleaned before you ever see 'em. How does seven know? well seven has a hisotry with graffiti, the veteran foamers know the whole deal on that one. I think that graffiti should be discussed on subfart but we shouldnt let it get out of hand because its "one of those" topics that could get us in trouble again. Topics like that test our civility (is that the right word?)
We had a similar debate on this a few months ago on The Other Side of the Tracks message board that raged on about grafitti and whether or not it should be represented as history in the transit museum.
Graffiti should be represented as history, as a reminder of what the bad old days were like.
I am testing out the Codes to insert a Link into a Post.
Text
Um, you end with (/A) not (/link)
I know that, I did it correct.
You DID NOT do it correctly, I looked at the source code for your post.
Oh well, it still posted
It didn't, the link didn't close, therefore all text after it was part of the link.
Text
HERE I'll do it for him, Ward.
Peace,
ANDEE
You may not be aware of it, but it is not necessary to actually post a message to test an imbedded link. All you have to do is create the message and click the preview button. If the link was done properly, it will work just fine from the preview screen.
I just found a pic of a F40PH Diesel Loco pulling 8 Amfleet Cars with a Acela HHP-8 Electric Loco pushing it. See Below.
Sure that wasn't a 202xx cab control car? I didn't know they could be used with electrics.
AEM7
I'm sure that was a F40PH Diesel Loco leading the Train, I never knew that the a Diesel and Electric could be MUed together. Here's a Link to the Website:
Acela HHP-8 Electric Locomotive Pics
Diesels and electrics can be m.u.'ed together -- the old Milwaukee Road used to do it all the time out west.
And STEAM and diesel can be m.u.'ed!!!!
WHAT????????????????????
Well, the SP "Daylight" engine, 4449, always has a diesel tucked in behind "just in case" when operating an excursion on some mainline road. Thereis actually a miniature diesel loco control box in the cab of the 4449, so the engineer of the steamer can regulate the diesel as well.
I believe Ross Rowland's C&O 614 also had diesel mu equipment installed to make it Amtrak compatible.
HHP-8 651 was tested for push-pull operations two years ago on the Harrisburg line.
I do not see Amtrak uses HHP-8 to push trains. However, MARC needs HHP-8 to push train southbound to Washington, DC.
Chaohwa
What you mean to tell me that Amtrak helps the MARC Trains???
In some way, yes. MARC Penn Line's equipment is maintained by Amtrak. MARC's AEM-7s will go to Wilmington Shop under heavy maintenance. Since the maintenance for HHP-8 is at Washington, DC, MARC HHP-8s will be maintained there.
Because MARC orders 6 HHP-8s, and HHP-8 is a brand new locomotive on the Northeast Corridor, before Amtrak or MARC accept their own HHP-8s, HHP-8s need to be tested for different operations.
Chaohwa
Oh Ok, so MARC will be ordering new HHP-8 Locomotives, kool. I wonder, how the paint scheme will look on the HHP-8's.
Jeff Lubchansky has a website about MARC. He has several MARC HHP-8 photos.
Enjoy!
Chaohwa
I've seen several HHP-8's with damaged vertical fluting on the side. You know, the [[[[[[[ fins that they have on the side of the locomotive. I've always wondered what causes such damage. If it is vandals hurling bricks, I would not think that kind of damage is possible (unless it is a very heavy piece of metal that is being hurled at the train). Some of the [[[ fins were torn through, and the damage frankly looked more like a sideswipe than just a high speed impact.
Question: How the hell do they get HHP-8's sideswiped in THAT location without damaging the rest of it? For goodness sake, these are new locomotives!
AEM7
Birds are possible. When a bird collides with a high-speed train, because of the nature of relative speed, even a little bird can damage an HHP-8, and even an AE's vertical flutings.
Chaohwa
OK, interesting -- it's a possbile theory. I have seen bloody splats on the front of the powercars (on the fibreglass nose portion). I am however inclined to think that given that a bird does not burst the fibreglass, then it is unlikely to tear metal (aluminum alloy or steel on the flutings).
I'm not suggesting what you're saynig is wrong; I'm just saying that it isn't consistent with the fiberglass nose's ability to withstand impact from one such bird (unless they were making the fluting out of REALLY shitty alloy, like the cut price signals that people were talking about on another thread).
Anyway, what is the purpose of the fluting?
"Unless they were making the fluting out of REALLY shitty alloy"
Well yeah, its a French engine modified by Bombardier to US standards, that goes without saying. ;)
It would seem to me that the side fluting, or corrugation would merely be an athetic addition, other than some limited cooling, and relfectivity issues, the side fluting serves no purpose. Perhaps, at extreme speeds, about 5 times where these things are found, the slight indentation would have a slight effect on the Area Ruling of the fuselage, similar to the Coke Bottle seen on 60's supersonic fighters in particular. The corrugation of the side is probably more trouble than it's worth, since it really just dirties the air around it, with it pushing and pulling on the surrounding air as the tops and bottoms of the ridges pass by a point.
There is something somewhat troubling both the HHP-8 and Acela engines, now that I look at it. On both engines there is a large cab followed by a sudden drop in the height of the carbody, this drop is concealed onlookers by the side panels, which have been the subject of other threads. I belive it was AEM7 who commented this area would cause drag. But it also could cause some upforce, due to the vacuum effect of 135 mph air rushing over the hole, Bernouli's principle dictates that a force must be added, on these locomotives in the form of torque.
On the Acela, this merely lifts the front wheels up, with the fulcrum at the rear truck, lowering weight for the same mass, and decreasing tracive effort, and also braking ability for those front wheels, increasing wear on the rear wheels.
On the HHP-8, the upforce would appear to be balanced by the rear cab's similar bump, which does the opposite force, creating downforce. However that merely adds torque, since the downforce is now some 30 feet behind, like a giant hand twisting a corkscrew. So if the locomotive should ever encounter a flatcar, or other obstruction at 135+ mph, there is a possibility that the HHP-8 would cartwheel like a hydroplane headed into the wind. However, these forces are slight, and I seriously doubt that any HHP-8s will jump track sponaneously while headed into a 30 mph gust.
The Acela shouldn't have the problems that the HHP-8 might have, since, while the torque is over a longer moment, there is less behind the rear truck to create the teeter-totter action of the HHP-8.
Look at these pictures:
The Acela clearly has an indent behind the cab, note the de-sidepaneled acela in the foreground
The HHP-8, seen in these two pictures, clearly has an indent, and a large amount overhanging the rear truck
Another Picture
Yet another picture
The AEM-7, nothing pushing down, but nothing pulling up either, and yes, all that stuff on the roof must add drag.
While I'm talking aerodynamics, why don't more engines use Lift devices upside down to increase their tractive effort? Sure a bunch of fowler flaps mounted up ontop the roof won't do you much good when your HHP-8 is slipping away from Landover with 10 MARC bilevels in tow. But it could help with stopping, such as a flap mounted to cover that area directly behind the cab on the HHP-8. When the train needs emergency, the flap would deploy, pressing the engine down onto the rail, increasing the Normal force (the force that the rail pushes back up to the engine), and also increasing the tractive effort and weight without adding mass to slow the accleration of the engine when high adhesion was not needed. With such a device, high speed trains could stop slightly shorter, and perhaps, save a few lives.
Thanks to ChuChuBob's Webshots Community website and The Amtrak Photo Archive for the pictures of the Acela, HHP-8s, and AEM-7.
Thanks, and any Aerodynamicists or Aeronautical engineers out there to confirm or deny what come to basically hunches?
When the train needs emergency, the flap would deploy, pressing the engine down onto the rail
I'm not 100% sure the type of flap you are talking about, but if I understand you correctly, you are talking about creating an artificial ridge on the roof when needed to increase the downwards force. I think the reasons it isn't done are (1) the flap has too much of a risk of shorting out overhead wires and/or flying off -- you have to remember that the railroad is a mechanically much harsher environment than aviation, with lots more vibrations and lots more ways for things to shake loose or fatigue; (2) it isn't cost effective, there are better ways to slow down the train in an emergency for example electromagnetic shoes like those found in rapid transit vehicles -- again, those are probably considered not cost-effective. Better to spend the money on train control (to ensure signal compliance) and total grade separation (to prevent foreign objects from falling onto track).
As for why the bump on the cab is necessary, I really don't know. The equipment housed on the roof is there because they are rheostats for dynamic brakes, meaning they need to dissipate heat, so they need to be out there in the wind (hence adding drag, but that's good because it allows forced cooling). It could be argued that the bump on the cab helps channel air towards the rheostats, but the effect is probably minor and the real reason may lie with either cab crashworthiness (notice how the "bump" allows a cage to be constructed around the windows and the cab while without the bump the top beams would have had a structural weak point by joining at obtuse angles) or it may simply be aesthestics.
AEM7
Found some interesting stuff on my travels today.
R-142As 7666-7670 are on the property and undergoing testing at Pelham Parkway Middle on the #2.
R-142s 6471-75 and 6481-85 are road testing for the 5 and could be found leaving East 180th St Yard.
Cars 6396-6405 are in service on the 5, not necessarily coupled to each other.
6751-55 has apparently crossed over from the 2 to the 5 (at least for a run). I observed them this afternoon.
At least two trains of R-26/28/29s remain in service on the 5. Their days are numbered.
And to be addressed in a separate message, I discovered a padlocked Redbird near the Barn at the East (at the bumping block). What?!?
-Stef
You know when you're on the train you have to get off or transfer at a station which doesn't boast for being the most best smelling (Or which downright stinks). I would like to gear which station smells from somewhat funny too oh my God what is that smell. If it's year round or just for a few months.
To me the most worst smelling station is Canal Street (Q and W) during the summer
Chambers Street J/Z its horrible and way too big, arent they suppose to renovate it? thats my vote
I remember during the late 80's, 2 Av. on the F smelled like sh*t like you wouldn't believe..it was all the crackheads and junkies that populated that station..and used it as a big underground bathroom.
runner up:
59th St. on the N and R in Brooklyn (same reason), again in the late 80's.
The 7 station at Times Square really is disgusting since the MTA decided to flush its toilets onto the tracks.
What toilets?
Youve never heard about that?
It was discovered that there was an MTA toilet that was flushing straight onto the tracks at the 7 station. The stinky liquid coming from a pipe in the wall sure wasn't rain water!
"It was discovered that there was an MTA toilet that was flushing straight onto the tracks at the 7 station. The stinky liquid coming from a pipe in the wall sure wasn't rain water! "
7 train from Flushing, Queens to Flushing, Manhattan!
You got that right. Whenever you're for a 7, especially on the express side; that urine smell is always there. The MTA should be very ashamed of doing this! It makes me angry that people could do this! Not only that, but in comparison to the other platforms of the TS complex, the 7 looks the worst!
My vote goes to every elevator in the system, but most especially those at Herald Square.
Before I finished reading your post I was thinking the Canal bridge station, then of course you said that. I have to agree. That station popped into my mind immediately, even before I read that you were going to say that station.
I'll agree that Canal is pretty bad.
Now, if we expand the list to include odors that are distinctive without being bad, there's nothing to compare to the PATH stations and their unusual musty smells.
The Grand Street Station when the North Side of the Bridge was open. Other than that the 59 Street lowest level where the 4 and 5 stop.
CANAL STREET. OMG, what a stink!
It the Canal Street Bridge Station wasn't opened for service, that'd be the last station I vote for. That station used to rock! When it was 90+ outside, it was nice and cool down there.
It the Canal Street Bridge Station wasn't opened for service, that'd be the last station I vote for. That station used to rock! When it was 90+ outside, it was nice and cool down there.
But smelled like %&$#!
In 1996 the J/M/Z platforms at Canal smelled the worst. I remembered that they had garbage piles on the Broad Street-bound platform...
Gweugh...-_-;
-J!
P.S. Does anyone else remember that?
42nd St./TSQ (on the #7 line) is a SEWAGE STATION.
I discovered a Padlocked Redbird with an unidentified sign on the front storm door window at the East on the track nearest to the barn. The Cars had their front end rollsigns pulled and a chain with a lock that ran from the grab bars to the storm door handle.
These Redbirds have the old style drop down windows. Unless my eyes are deceiving me, they are R-26s 7848 and 7849. Have I discovered the Missing Link? Lol! I was just wandering if these are IRM bound. Frank Hicks mentioned something about Redbirds supposedly being shipped out a few days ago. They might be school cars like 7770 and 7771, but we'll just have to wait and see.
If the Redbirds are shipped on Flat Cars to Illinois, I'd guess that they could exit the system by way of Linden Yard and interchanged with the NY&A. I was told by a friend that 9156-57, which are now at Floyd Bennett Field, went to Linden Yard and were trucked from there.
-Stef
Thanks for the info... I'm trying to contact the guy here at IRM who is coordinating the Redbird project to see whether 7848-7849 are the ones coming here, but last I checked even he didn't know which cars were coming to Illinois. If you find out anything about cars heading West, like when they're loaded onto flatcars or such, I would be interested in knowing for record-keeping reasons. Thanks!!
Frank Hicks
Is that Jerry Saunders you've been talking to? He came to Branford a few years back to see the R-17 in operation.
Hey, if I see or hear anything, I'll let you know. When it gets there, be sure to have a camera handy and send pics of it back east.
Regards,
Constantine Steffan (Aka Stef)
Yes, that's Jerry. I'll certainly see if I can get some pictures for you.
I still have no idea what IRM's plans for the Redbirds are. Some people (myself included) want to put poles on them and run them, but others want to leave the roofs untouched and leave the cars in authentic pole-less condition. Hmm.
Frank Hicks
Putting poles on a married pair might be tricky. I wouldn't know how to arrange it, to be honest. However, based on experience with the R-17, Branford put the pole at one end of the car, leaving it in semi-authentic fashion. The only drawback is the pole has to be turned.
Hey! I'd like to see a compromise, and put a pole on one end of the and leave the other end authentic. The front ends can be photographed with no poles.
Would it be possible to place a pole on each car at the blind of the two units (The middle of the cars)? How are the poles arranged on CTA cars?
I am speaking from a railfan's perspective. I'd figure you could expand your operating fleet and take some of the wear and tear off other RT cars.
Just food for thought.
-Stef
Seashore's R4/R7A 800/1440 has poles on both cars (they are singles, but we usually have them configured as a two-car train). The train is setup so that the poles are in the middle, and the leading car always has the trailing pole. So changing ends just requires one to stand in the middle ("assume the position," as mr. rt would say), lower one, and raise the other.
That's what I figured. Trolley pole arrangement should work the same way on a married pair.
-Stef
I can't imagine Jerry S. not wanting to RUN those things!
5 miles of straight track......
Yeah, really. Wrap the controller and watch those puppies take off...
Say Frank, what about all those 6000s at IRM? They had trolley poles added, didn't they?
You're right, we've already done this sort of thing before. Our CTA 6600's, 6655-6656, never had poles in service but they were mounted on the cars here. There's still some opposition to that, despite the fact that they're our only operating pair! Anyway, one difference between them and the Redbirds is that the 6000's were built and wired with poles in mind - it wasn't too hard to finally utilize these built-in features from what I understand. We've also mounted poles on our Broad Street subway car, 55, and we used to run it on occasion. We called it the U-505, for the German submarine we've got here in Chicago!
About what's the balancing speed on an R26/R28? I'm sure Jerry will find out soon enough, but I was just curious...
Frank Hicks
I think the pole installation would be rather simple actually. IIRC, Ted E., our curator and master mechanic devised a plan where he would drill a hole in the roof of the R-17, and run the wire through a standee pole down to the traction motor. And it worked! No unsightly wires. But if Jerry wants to run a test with his new toy right away, he can probably make up something temporarily.
-Stef
Too bad 1689's trolley pole is on one end and not in the center. IIRC Eddie S. installed it when the museum got that car.
Thanks everyone for the helpful hints. I hadn't thought of running a cable through a stanchion! I was thinking about how hard it would be to run it through the walls...
Anyway, I mentioned this thread to someone else involved with the Redbird project and they advised me to quit flapping my jaw about this. Despite this, any information you guys can come up with is still greatly appreciated!
Frank Hicks
The balance speed is 50 MPH. I will instruct Jerry on how
to "back-date" the car to before 1995 :) We can also show
him how to put the pole on. I know Bill P. at Seashore objects
to permanently mounting poles on the cars for curatorial reasons.
At Branford, the subway cars were initially given temporary pole
bases and a wire draped over the side and connected in to the
main knife switch or to the T-lead. Besides looking tacky, the
wire has a tendency to get snagged in the doorway and aisleways of
the barns. So, we've been running the wire inside. 6688 and 5466
got that treatment when they came, and a few years ago I did the
same for 1689. Eventually I guess I'll do 3662, but it's less of
a priority since the car runs infrequently. Bill's ahhh-nines are
outside so he doesn't worry about barn clearances. I suspect IRM's
redbirds will also be outside for a while. Even with the new
building(s), there's a long list of cars ahead to go inside first,
and I can just imagine the colorful phrases at the board meeting
where it is proposed to place those cars inside!
I work the East all the time. I'll ask around next time I'm there. I saw those cars just the other night. They're on 10 track.
I will be at the East today and tomorrow.
Can one of you gents find out what it says on the sign in the window? Just curious. Also if someone knows when a movement is taking place, please share that with us.
-Stef
"Made in Japan":-)
Would you believe
"Do not open until X-mas"?:-)
RIM SHOT!
For the folks in IRM it will be an early Christamas Gift.
-Stef
I just hope they put the bulkhead signs back in at some point. Maybe even some original roller curtains.
Nice to know IRM will have a set of Redbirds after all. That means I can say "Hello Redbirds" the next time I visit that museum.
I walked over to the train with the Lock and sign on it by the Barn.
"DO NOT MOVE!! N.T.T Storage
Thanks!
-Stef
Does anyone remember where subway grafitti (as we recognize it, not just sentences scrawled on cars or station walls) first showed up?
As far as I can remember, it was first reported in the early 70's on the No. 1 and the J.
If you look at even old pictures of subway trains, alot of them had names scratched or written on them.
Totally off-topic, but I remember from visiting Shakespeare's birthplace in Stratford-upon-Avon in England, they had a preserved panel of glass which had Tudor graffiti in it, detailing names like "Elizabeth" and evidently love birds like "Richard and Evelyn". Apparently, once Shakespeare died, people turned his birthplace into a tourist attraction and for payment of several pounds (a sizable sum in those days) one was permitted to scratch one's name into Shakespearian glass. The glass is now preserved in its late 19th century state, full of graffiti. Apparently, several famous writers (I seem to remember Mark Twain amongst them, although he was born way after they allegedly stopped the glass scratching) were graffiti artists at Shakespeare's birthplace.
Also, in York Minster (which is a large church in York, England), there was clearly middle-ages graffiti visible on the stone pillars. Not only did they depict initials and dates (1731, read one of them), they were also done in ornate lettering styles which graffiti artists would have been capable of in those days but not today. Again, those graffiti, along with bullet holes from WWII, were preserved, although no more graffiti are being allowed on the premises.
So there's how English Heritage, one of the most conservative organization in a most conservative country, treats graffiti.
They are definitely urban art.
AEM7
>>So there's how English Heritage, one of the most conservative organization in a most conservative country, treats graffiti.
They are definitely urban art. <<
Now we know why they say "G-d save the Queen"
This morning, riding from Coney Island/Culver to Church Av/Culver on a R32, I looked out the side window to the east and saw two headlights on the SBR (South Brooklyn Railway) between Ave I and 18 Av. I could've been mistaken just like how my professor keeps insisting his UFO sighting in 1973 in the Lower East Side.
Just checked my Hagstrom Map. Isn't that the Bayridge Branch of the LIRR over there, not the SBK? If so, you probably saw a NY&A freight loco.
Is it just me or is red the MTA's favorite color? REDbirds REDbulkheads on the R142/143...Green and purple bulkheads will kinda look cool. And how bout redbirds for 7av, greenbirds for lex and purplebirds for flushing and while they're at it, how about restoring the r27/30 and make bluebirds orangebirds lightgreenbirds brownbirds yellowbirds greybirds and blackbirds for the ind/bmt? hahaha im not actually suggesting this but just joking around with the facts.
The red bulkheads are a homage to the "redbirds." It's intentional.
David
Actually, this is how some of the Japanese lines do work.
I saw Orange, red, yellow, green and blue cars, all of identical construction running on different lines when I was in the Navy back in the 60s. I bought some of those cars because I the looked so much like subway cars four dors to the side... self propelled... and all.
When I looked in at the Kawasaki website (it was posted here a whiel back) I saw whate were obviously new cars for the same lines still in the same colours!
Elias
I think blue is the MTA's favorite color. Otherwise they would have done silver and red on the subway cars in the 70's, not the silver and blue that many cars recieved (before they got a second paint treatment from the vandals). And I always see the MTA logo in blue.
"I think blue is the MTA's favorite color. "
Wrong (I think)
Blue and Yellow are the New York State colors.
They were foisted on to the then ta when it was rolled into the MTA.
All of the lines have Blue because that is a *State* requirement.
And just to be different, CT made their cars Red!
(Bringing back the NH scheme was a great idea).
Ban the Blue, bring back the Red Birds!
(Yeah... even I figured out that the red on the 142s was an honor to the time honored redbirds!)
Elias
Something has got to be done with the congestion on this line. Almost everyday, there are delays during rush hours. My solution is to run some #2s to Dyre so that everyone has an equal amount of service.
The reason for the Congestion is because of the <5> Trains going out of service at E 238 Street. I don't know if much could be done.
I am pleased (but not very) to report that the replacement of the Redbirds on the 6 line has not extinguished that wonderful, old tradition, the non-functioning door. I saw one just this evening. Is this the first? Is it the only? More importantly, is it the last or a harbinger of things to come?
For this they had to spend all that money?
The more things change, . . . .
Look at these incredicle Pics of MARC new electric locomotive:
I see there is a red X where the pics are supposed to be at, so here's a link:
Electric Loco 4910
The weblink you posted has only small letters. The actual weblink consists of captial letters.
Like this link.
And the following photo,
You can look at the source for details.
Chaohwa
Thanks for clearing that up.
Gash! Look at all of those cables. Looks like somebody ripped the face off of C3PO or something!
When ever I want to post a link, I highlight and copy the link address from the top of the browser, and then paste it into the text that I am writing, that way I know that it was done correctly.
The front part of the URL is not case sensitive, but everything after the .com/ is.
Elias
How many HHP-8's did MARC order?
Six. From 4910 through 4915.
Chaohwa
If I'm not mistaken, I think I see part of the Philadelphia Art Museum behind the Acela train that's behind the HHP-8. Was this picture taken at Philly's 30th St. Station? I've seen MARC HHP-8s there before myself.
Mark
That's right. MARC HHP-8s are testing in Philadelphia before MARC accepts them.
Chaohwa
Any word on when they might finally be put into service? I've never ridden MARC, I want to someday, and it might be worth waiting until the HHP-8s are running to do so.
Mark
I heard that MARC has accepted one of them, but I never see one in service yet.
Chaohwa
I took my last rides on the Redbirds last Saturday and boy are they ready to go. They looked liked Tyson after Lewis got through with him and were just as effective.
E_DOG
It's sad really ... when we came down for Kissmoose, took a ride with Pelham Dave on Kissmoose Eve and turned in several pieces of his operating position (wouldn't wanna steal state property as a souvenir) that broke off in my hand or crunched underfoot. :)
That train was in VERY bad shape.
6366-70 and 6866-70 are runnning on the #2 this hour. Will this be a regular practice of 142s switching identities? I'm about to have a cow man!
-Stef
I rode that trainset last Friday. It did have the 5 line strip map inside.
I rode that trainset last Friday. It did have the 5 line strip map inside. It went out of service upon entering White Plains so I thought that it was being returned to the 5 line. I guess not right away......
Does anyone remember the TA Open House at 38th Street Yard in the mid 1960s? As a young boy I remember my father taking me to see it. I guess I was around 15 years old. They had a number of cars open to the public, one in particular was a Low-V painted yellow for snow fighting duties. Did anyone else go to it and did you take any photos? My father worked for the LIRR out of Flatbush Ave. and I remember the indication bells of the old Low-Vs. On occasion my father would take me on the Lexington Ave. Line all the way to Woodlawn Road (just for the fun of it) and I'd be looking out the storm door all the way. What a great experience.
I do remember the open house at 39th Street Brooklyn in the 70's (Timing was during the subway's 75th birthday). The thrid rail crew was showing how to weld third rails together. The sign people were giving away silk screen decals of the lettered routes.There was a demo ride of the low V.
Right ... I was there in the '70s, too ... got a bunch of "B" train stickers while I was there.
--Mark
Was it the one in 1962 (not quite "mid" 1960s?
I was there manning a booth near the entrance for the New York Division ERA. If you remember the booth maybe you were at the 1962 open house.
It could have been 1962. Unfortunately, I don't remember the ERA booth but I could have overlooked it. In '62 I was 13 years old. I do remember walking down the road from the 9th Ave. station and seeing all the displays, different pieces of rolling stock and demonstrations of equipment by different departments.
I remember doing that cerca 1967 or so. What a great ride.
I'm confused. I remember the one in the early '60s. I know I didn't make the one in '67. Where there two of them? Let me know.
Question No.2: MBTA red line cars in the 01500-01700 fleet often have abrasive damage around the rim where the body is slightly curved, slightly higher than the platform edge. The abrasion doesn't look like it came from errand platforms, in any case it is too high to be platform damage. Some of it was painted over, others weren't. They also do not occur on the Bombardier 01800 series cars. They don't look like switching accidents either, because switching accidents should damage the car where it is at its widest, not at the rim where the body curves inwards. Also, damage often occurs along the entire length of the car, not just at the car ends, although the damage is more severe at the car ends.
What is causing this?
AEM7
Ok, here are two photos I took at CP-ALBURTIS on the way home from my pocono raft trip. It is next on the NS hit parade to be "improved". You make the call:
Oh, quick note: The two head drarf can display all of the NORAC aspects, the single head traffic light can't.
Here is what's there now:
Here is the wave of the future.
Which do you prefer.
Those don't looks so bad. What's the fuss.
Ad least we don't have any thing that looks like European signals.
Elias
So the new ones are just G-Y-R heads? No contest. The pair of dwarves give flexibility for more aspects. I vote OLD TECH.
Yeah, and that little tree that comes with the old signals is nice too. Granted, there are a fair share of single head searchlight dwarfs in service and although they can show the R/Y/G aspects, they are slightly less flexable than the traffic light signals as the TL's can illuminate more than one lamp at a time and thus can show 7 aspects instead of the 5 aspects shown by a single head searchlight. Of course a dual head searchlight dwarf can show 11 aspects.
Here is a single head dwarf I caught at CP-LEHIGHTON on the NS Lehigh Line. The upper section of the Lehigh Line is SO marginally profitable and CP-LEHIGHTON is so far away from anywhere that the classic signals will probably live on for many years to come.
Notice how small and portable the searchlights are. Do you think a maintainer could ever lift one of those new trafficlights?
He could lift the blow molded plastic enclosure more easily than that small casting. I Repeat, NS. Please give JM a "Dumpster Pass" for a truckload of old US&S I*R*O*N
No signals have plastic cases, they are all cast aluminum.
Notice how small and portable the searchlights are.
Uh, JM, have you ever actually carried an H-2? Geez, those
things are nutdroppers.
Agree. They'z freaking hevee, dood.
Hmm...I can see the signal on a pole from much further away than the dwarf signal. New tech wins.
-Hank
Thats not the point of dwarf signals. Do you even understand signalling? When a signal needs to be visible far away, it is mounted on a pole. When it doesn't, it's a dwarf.
And let's not also forget that the purpose of dwarfs generally is where you want to make sure that they're taken for "near" conditions and not confused with distant signalling aspects (such as yard interlocks and sidings) so they're not confused with mainline signalling ... but absolutely agree ...
For those who haven't worked a cab and have only admired signals from a center window, you'd be amazed at how BRIGHT signals are from a cab. As God intended so you can see them from a distance. Dwarves are NOT so easy to spot until you're almost on TOP of them and even then, you gotta watch carefully.
The new dwarfs are not on poles, those are in ground foundation supports.
That's some foundation...
-Hank
They used to use a concrete base, but this foundation works w/ loose dirt/balast.
Split #5 service north of E 180 some will go to 238/241 while others will go to Dyre. Headways will be no more than 10 minutes weekends middays north of E 180. (Before that, #5 trains will come about every 5 minutes 10 am-8 pm only)
(2)(5) will serve WPR
(5)(S) will serve Dyre
each branch will have 2 trains serving it
Is #5 service needed on a 5-minute headway on weekends? The busiest part of the line is along Lexington Avenue, which also has #4 service on the express.
David
I think that they should have at least one Trans-Bronx subway and/or rapid transit line. Going from east to west, it would start at the Pelham Bay Park station on the #6 Line and run along Gun Hill Road and then Van Cortlandt Park W. to the IRT Broadway Line (#1). Stations would include Allerton Ave., Eastchester Rd., Boston Rd. with a connection to the IRT Drye Ave. Line (#5), Bronxwood Ave., White Plains Rd. with a connection to the White Plains Rd. IRT Line (#2), Hull or Perry Ave. (near Webster Ave.), Jerome Ave. with a connection to the Jerome Ave. IRT (#4), Orloff Ave, and Lastly Broadway with a connection to the IRT Broadway Line (#1). Please tell me what you think of my idea of a Trans-Bronx rapid transit line.
#3 West End Jeff
Not a bad idea, but I would make one along E. Tremont Av from Throgs Neck to University Heights, connecting to the 6, 2/5, D, and 4.
A Trans-Bronx subway line along Tremont would also be a good idea.
#3 West End Jeff
My sentiments exactly; the farthest north I'd say would be Fordham but Tremont would be my first choice. Central corridor and a toss up between that and Fordham /Pelham Pkwy. being busiest.
Now if there could be both Fordham/Pelham and Tremont Cross Bronx Lines, that'd be good...
(PT) Fort Washington Av Washington Hts - Jamaica 170th St / Archer Av
via 181st St, University Av, Tremont Av, Utopia Pkwy, Home Lawn St, 180th St.
Transfers to (A), (1), (B)(D), MNRR Tremont, (2)(5), (6), LIRR Auburndale, extended (E)(J)(Z).
(PF) Broadway Inwood - Co-op City
via 207th St, Fordham Rd, Pelham Pkwy, Hutchinson River Pkwy.
Transfers to (A), (1), (4), (B)(D), MNRR Fordham, (2)<5>, (5).
(PK) Broadway Marble Hill - Pelham Bay Park
via 225th St, Kingsbridge Rd, Fordham Rd, Pelham Pkwy, Burr Av.
Transfers to (1), (4), (B)(D), MNRR Fordham, (2)<5>, (5), (6).
What does everyone think of that idea as an utterly unfundable fantasy?
I am a Met fan stuck in the Bronx. I like the idea of a line from the Bronx to Queens. As long as it stops a Shea. Plus it would be alot better than taking the Q44 or QBx1.
You're on the same track as I am. I certainly would build a line between the Bronx and Queens.
#3 West End Jeff
You're on the same track as I am. I certainly would build a line between the Bronx and Queens.
Perhaps we should trade our completely unfundable Subtalk fantasy plans then! Please feel free to e-mail me.
It is too bad that they won't build some subway lines that are truly needed.
#3 West End Jeff
I like the idea of a line from the Bronx to Queens. As long as it stops a Shea.
A line getting anywhere near Shea would have to turn further South in the Bronx than the ideas posted so far. Probably the best routing is the following for both cross-Bronx and cross-Queens connections:
(P) Fort Washington Av Washington Hts - JFK Airport
via 181st St, University Av, Tremont Av, (West Farms), Cross Bronx Expwy, (Parkchester), White Plains Rd, College Point Bvd, Northern Bvd, Main St, Kissena Bvd, Parsons Bvd, under LIRR, 150th St, Sutphin Bvd, 150th St, Loop around Airport Terminals
Transfers to (A), (1), (B)(D), MNRR Tremont, (2)(5), (6)<6>, (7)<7>, LIRR Flushing, (E)(J)(Z).
Well, I for one like it...
Considering my post the other day :)
I remember seeing a conductor riding between the cars on the "GG" and "CC" trains around 1982. Did any of them in the decades they did this ever fall onto the roadbed or have other serious mishaps? Also was there a special prodcedure for "dismounting", did they step down before the train started moving?
Thanks,
George Devine
San Francisco, CA
"Also was there a special prodcedure for "dismounting"?"
Very carefully.
I'm sure there were mishaps with conductors who weren't careful when they climbed on and off the steps. And I think they had to watch the platform a the train left the station. Just like conductors do now.
Those would be R12's and below. GG and CC tells me that it was R1/9's. I did 'em ... looks were deceiving on those puppies. It looked dangerous as all hell but in reality, it wasn't all that much of a challenge. You had to be a bit more midful when it was raining, snowing or icy of course but the foot plates had lips on the outsides so you could set your shoes in there and be pretty secure. There was metalwork you could dig your knees into and grab irons.
You assumed the position, opening the gate and locking it down, then you climbed up while the train was entering the station and standing in position as the train came to a stop. You'd grab the triggers to open the doors, pop the caps to close up and hold your position for three cars out, step down carefully, put the gate back in place and wait to do it again, and again, and again, and again ...
Yes, we got told in school car what happens if you slip, and yes some have gone under over the years. But the job kept you ever mindful of that risk and you were very careful assuming the position and dismounting. But yeah, I'm sure most folks today are glad they work "inside." :)
If Parkchester says this was in 1982, he would referring to the R-10s.
Once the R-12s and R-14s found their way to the mainlines in 1963-64, they never ran in solid trains again except for those sent to the 3rd Ave. el. Even in mixed consists, they were never placed in the middle of a train at the conductor's post.
That's what I get for peeling out in '75 and moving upstate. I thought the R1/9's continued until around 1980'ish ... you're probably right. As far as a conductor went though, there was NO difference from the operating position in the middle - for a conductor, R10's and R1/9's were pretty much the same aside from the paint. Up front, THAT was different ...
The last R-9s rode off into the sunset on March 31, 1977.
Wow ... only two years after I blew town ... now I feel JUSTIFIED. :)
Any hearing loss?
Hah? Wha? :)
Probably the only thing I hated was getting my ass pinched, turning around on the steps and finding it wasn't a smiling lady there. I used to smack down the caps like a quarterback sack and found if you did it hard enough, either the indication would go out in the front zone or the cap flew off to the tracks and you'd be spending the rest of your trip pushing the triggers the other way. Ouch. And of course at Rockaway Pk, Kerigans was across from the station so you could defrost the icicles from your nostrils after that Concourse Clunker.
Heh. Yeah, I had a spring on the gate fail on me once and it grabbed me in the pants and ripped them wide open halfway through a trip. Never lost a cap though. I did lose a box once (trigger sliders jammed tight on my front side and had to violate the rules and operate from between cars 5 and 6 once. But in general, those puppies were MIGHTY durable on the R1/9's other than jams every now and then. And natch, and RCI would come along, tap it with a hammer and you were good to go for the rest of the run. :)
Izzat YOU hanging off them R10's?
Whoops ... check that - between cars SIX AND SEVEN (one car back from normal on a ten car) ... shows you what all night shifts do to the old meat rom. :)
I didn`t realize Subtalk was back. I missed you Railfans and Subtalkers. It`s good to see Mr. Selkirk and your sense of humor once more. Regards from Phoenix AZ.
Did you ask, "Anybody got a needle and thread?" after that mishap with the gate?
You're right about the durability of those cars. I've popped those trigger caps on the museum cars and it would seem you'd have to really nail them before a cap were to come off. I found that a Bic Clic ball point pen came very close to approximating the trigger cap sound, and would sit in school clicking a pen on my desktop pretending I was a conductor on the IND. (You have to understand I became totally immersed in the subway after we moved to Jersey.)
Nope, I managed to hide most of the damage with the official TA jacket (it was a big tear) but when I got up to Bedford, someone was willing to help out in the crew room after the guffaws stopped. That train went right back out though. And no, you see buddy ... I knew I was suffering from "foamer's disease" ... that's why I had to take the cure. The Holy Ronan Empire's 12 step program worked. I can ride any train, anywhere, and not bother the crew nor leave stains. I'se cured! :)
I never intended to seek a job with the TA; I just fell in love with the system, especially the IND. Remember how we were supposed to put covers on our textbooks in school? Well, I'd draw R-32 sign boxes on the front and put my name and subject and all that jazz in the route and destination slots. I'd draw front bulkheads on top of test papers after I'd get them back and put the grade I got into the route slot. There was a social studies textbook we used in fifth grade with a section on New York which even included the subway, and it had a fairly accurate illustration of how lines can run at several levels at certain locations. Even the cars depicted looked accurate. IIRC they were R-11s or R-15s; their side door leaves had two circular windows. It was enough to make me drool.
And my folks wondered why I couldn't wait to go to Saturday school...
Heh. Come over here and have a seat on da couch ... it's only $75 an hour, bro. Yeah, when I was a kid I was all foamy myself ... but after doing the job for a while, it was easy to get over. :)
Thanks for answering my question everyone... So the doors on the R1-16's were powered by compressed air? When you talk about the caps you mean the tops of the buttons or the triggers on the handles between the cars?
I enjoyed reading about the reference to going in through the storm door. I remember seeing a "GG" crew boarding its train at Forest Hills in '81 or '82 between cars this way. I was riding an E or an F from 169 into Manhattan. I used to spend two weeks every summer in Queens so I tried to soak up as much as I could about subway. Those "GG" looked like they barely ran. I think the TA only used 6 or 8 car consists on the "GG" back in those days.
It's hard to believe the conductors rode between the cars in what appeared to be dry-clean only outfits. Nowadays, they would probably wear something far less formal.
They were 8 car consist. The MTA considered the GG to be a red headed step child and never put newer equipment on the line, such as R-44`s and or R-46`s. The GG was one of the last lines to run R-1/9`s on a regular basis. Thank goodness, and railfan windows
The R-10s were the last cars to have pneumatic door engines. Everything afterwards had electric doors although National Pneumatic supplied door engines to cars up through the R-16s. On the R-10s, you'd hear a "tdddd-kkk-kssssss" as the locks released and the doors opened. You wouldn't hear that sound on later cars. Even the R-12s didn't do that because they had electric doors.
All R1-R14 cars had pnuematic doors which operated externally by conductors in the manner you remember. What you saw were R10's on the CC & GG.
The R-10s were the last cars to have pneumatic doors. The R-12s and R-14s (and for that matter, the R-11s) had electric door engines.
Heh. But they were equipped with bottlecaps to control them. That old railroad mentality at work again - "this is the way it's done and we don't care if there's a computer, by gawd, there's going to be contactors too." If it wasn't for the BRT putting pushbuttons in the standards, who knows? 143's would STILL have conductors "assuming the position and punching the bottlecaps." :)
"If it wasn't for the BRT putting pushbuttons in the standards, who knows? 143's would STILL have conductors "assuming the position and punching the bottlecaps." :)
"
*THAT* would make for an interesting OPTO train!
Well, I'll let you in on a little secret. If you keyed in the front storm door, you COULD reach out the cab window, open up and close down from the cab. Ya'd need a long arm to push the triggers forward, but it's been done. I've opened up when my conductor was nowhere to be found and it was almost time to go. :)
By "keying", are you referring to the keyswitch above the storm door? What if the train was already zoned in the middle? Just curious.
You dropped out the bad section, moved, keyed in where you were. That's why I was thrown by that claim that the "momentary switch" was the one I zoned with. After all, you couldn't let the kids get at the buzzer button on other cars. :)
So you could theoretically control the doors from either end of a train if it was zoned that way. Didn't the R-1/9s have drum switches in the cabs as well? I got the impression from Big Ed that they did.
Yes they did because the mechanism itself was actually inside the cab. The sliders went into that housing. So yeah, you could ... but then there was the 300 foot rule. Fortunately for US though, OPTO was not percolating in the minds of management at the time. Just keeping the railroad from laying down end to end was enough to keep 'em busy. :)
Talk about "zoning out." (figured I'd save you the typing) Heh.
Oh. I thought the R15 was the first car with electrical doors.
I was under the same impression at one time - mainly because of the trigger boxes. What piqued my curiosity was the absence of the "tddk-ksssss" sound on the R-12s when their doors opened. At first I thought their door controls had been modified so they could m. u. with later cars, but later found out otherwise. By the same token (no pun intended), I always thought the R-10s ran in solid trains because their pneumatic doors were incompatible with any other cars. Train Dude was kind enough to set me straight on this subject once and for all some time ago.
When I broke in as a C/R on the IND in late 1973 the GG was operating with R-9 cars.
I've long envisioned a subway line along the Fordham Road/Pelham Parkway corridor - either a stand-alone line or an extended "A".
It would run from 207th Street & Broadway and stop at 10th Avenue, University Avenue, Jerome Avenue/Concourse (a single station for both), Fordham Plaza, Southern Blvd, and White Plains Road, and then take over the Dyre Avenue Line stations at Pelham Parkway, Gun Hill Road, Baychester Avenue, and then turn south into Co-op City.
Hey, I can dream, can't I?
I've had the idea of a Trans-Bronx subway running through my head from time to time. Certainly better than trying the Bx28 or 26 or trying to get across Bronx Park on a Bx22 or 12. I was also thinking about extending it south into a Trans-Queens subway, relieving that hour plus trip from the downtowns of Flushing to Jamaica on the Q44/25/34/17/etc. Sure beats a highway beltway!
This time, size matters
Once again, the column I had planned to send out this time has been preempted by events of this past week. Eventually, that column will find its way into your e-mail box. As they say, and now for something completely different.
Back in the dark days of the 1980’s in railroading, the industry was clamoring for the reduction in the crew consist staffing freight trains. They wanted to eliminate both Brakemen on the job and operate all through freight trains with an Engineer and Conductor only. The rail industry begged and pleaded for the change promising in return, short, fast and frequent trains. And with this claim was the statement they would only need two locomotives on each train instead of having to tie up three or more on the higher priority trains. This would both serve the best interest of the customers and also make the operation more efficient. Of course, much of this turned out to be, a promise. And we all know that promises are like babies; fun to make but hard to deliver.
Intermodal trains on most railroads operate on short and fast schedules. However, in the new millennium, not only are the manifest trains not smaller, running faster and operated more frequently, they are actually longer, slower and heavier. The reason? It is not efficient to run short, fast, frequent trains. The industry claims they are having a difficult time making a reasonable return on investment having to have both an Engineer and Conductor on a train. What ever happened to all the efficiencies that were to be gained from eliminating both of the brakemen and the caboose?
Since the size of the crews went down, the size of trains gradually increased. Today’s trains have become behemoths. On the CNIC, monster, killer, horror sized trains are the norm. We are not alone though, other railroads are also operating these tremendous proportioned trains. I’ve observed some monster trains on Norfolk Southern and CSX. NS predecessor Norfolk & Western was well known for operating monster trains, including 200 plus car coal trains. Conrail, before it was split up between NS and CSX, was also not bashful about running big trains. On numerous occasions I spotted 160 car or longer trains including a 187 car ELSO (Elkhart to Soo Line, Bensenville) train one evening in 1996.
Some railroads do have a realistic approach though. Union Pacific applies a maximum of 135 cars or 8000 feet. This is a carryover from MoPac days as this became MoPac policy in 1983. Burlington Northern Santa Fe has restrictions involving train make up (how loads and empties are placed) and tonnage. If these restrictions cannot be adhered to, the train is restricted to a maximum speed of 45 MPH. BNSF also has length restrictions on certain portions of their system. For example, westbound manifest and automobile trains out of Chicago on the former Santa Fe line are restricted to 7000 feet.
There are certain restrictions applied on certain regions of CSX owing to the length of sidings. For example the line between Porter, IN and Detroit, MI has a restriction of 7000 feet in total train length including engines because of siding lengths along the route. Canadian Pacific haulage trains operated on this line have additional restrictions involving tonnage. Before the arrival of General Electric’s AC4400 series of locomotives, CP trains were restricted to 5200 tons when pulled by two SD40 series locomotives. Three SD40’s were allowed 7000 tons. The reason for these restrictions was the short, steep grades when coming out of the tunnel under the Detroit River. This tunnel, connecting the United States and Canada links Detroit with Windsor, ON. The last problem needed would be for a train to stall through this tunnel.
Wisconsin Central had only three long sidings between North Fond du Lac and Schiller Park on the Chicago Subdivision in my days there; Rugby Junction and Waukesha, WI and Wheeling, IL. Undaunted though, WC chose to operate long, heavy trains on the line just the same. Usually this meant one of two choices, sit at one of the long sidings and wait (sometimes for an hour or more) for the opposing monster train or get headed into one of the shorter sidings that had an auxiliary track to double into. What this meant was the East Dispatcher would call you in the clear when the tail end of your train cleared. You pulled out the of the head end of the siding in order to accomplish this. You would then make a cut on the excess and shove back into the track along side of the siding and clear up so that he could line up the opposing move. This could be accomplished at Burlington, WI and Lake Villa, IL, although Lake Villa did not have as much room for doubling in. At Burlington, you actually used the main track and doubled into the non-controlled siding to clear up. Opposing trains used the controlled passing siding to affect the meet.
After the opposing train cleared and you received the signal, you pulled back out and put the train back together. When this was complete you pumped the air back up in the train and the Conductor walked back up to the engines. Really efficient, eh? We would get some lip service on occasion from my least favorite Trainmaster (and human being) at Schiller Park wondering why we took so long to get over the road after a meet or two like this.
There are some restrictions that are attributed to hills, referred to as grades. Depending upon the grade, there may be restrictions on total trailing tonnage in the train. There are normally only so many working locomotives that can be placed on the head end of the train. Too many can exceed the drawbar pull on cars and actually rip the train in two as there is an excess of tractive effort put forth against the train. Grades are calculated based on 100 foot lengths. If a grade rises one foot in elevation for every one hundred feet, it would be a 1% grade. Two feet per hundred would be 2% and so on. Another factor that is not calculated into this equation is curves. A hilly or steep section of railroad will generally have curves to help reduce the grade so that you are not climbing straight up. The curves create resistance as well. Now put several miles of this together and you have quite the grade. A heavy train will be struggling to reach the top of this hill. Without helper or pusher units, heavy trains may very well stall.
On occasion on the WC we would lose a unit and stall on Byron Hill as a result. Byron Hill was five and a half miles of 1.09% grade with the requisite curves so as to minimize the grade from being steeper. Helper engines were often added to the rear. If you had sufficient power to make the hill without them, you went it alone. However, sometimes you lost a unit and then stalled. If this happened you generally had to double the hill. This meant the Conductor having to walk back, apply sufficient handbrakes to the portion you would be leaving behind, make a cut on what you determined you could handle under the new conditions and pull it up to the siding at Byron, WI. After securing and detaching from that cut, you went back down the hill, grabbed the portion left behind and pulled it up.
Upon the return to Byron you would cut off this portion and couple back onto the cut you left there on your first trip. You would double the train back up and the Conductor walked back up to the engines. On a good day this took a minimum of one and a half hours. Did I mention that most conditions along the right of way were not conducive to walking? The shoulder of the right of way quickly slopped off away from the end of the ties, so you were walking at an angle. This made for a very slow and miserable stroll.
There are tonnage ratings calculated for locomotives. These ratings involve a variety of factors and use a bunch of equations. Taken into consideration are such things as horsepower, the weight and wheel adhesion factor of the locomotive and of course, the percentage of the grade. I cannot even begin to get into it here. I have a book from EMD that explains all of this and it is quite extensive. The tonnage rating is based upon what is referred to as the ruling grade of a particular district or subdivision or a segment thereof. The ruling grade would be the steepest grade on that particular portion of territory.
Here on the CNIC, they tell us the former IC from Chicago to New Orleans is "river grade" meaning it follows the grade of the Mississippi River and is supposedly flat. Perhaps that it the case as you reach further into the south, but not the case in Illinois. Anybody who has read this column for anytime knows this is more of a theory as opposed to a fact. While it is not akin to the likes of Altoona, Tehachapi or Sand Patch, it is by no means flat. I have crawled along the so-called river grade Chicago Sub with big, heavy trains at painfully slow speeds. Just getting the train started at Homewood can be a challenge as the yard is on the side of a hill. On occasion, we need a push from a job working in the yard. Anybody who has observed us trackside, from the Metra stations between Homewood and University Park or from the parallel Governor’s Highway out to Monee can testify to my claim. While the climb out of Homewood to Monee includes two sags that allow a brief increase speed, it is, for most part, straight up hill to Monee. Without stopping, I have had Stuenkel Road at University Park blocked for fourteen minutes while pulling my heavy train across without ever stopping. This makes us very well received by those waiting in their automobiles and trucks. On occasion one of them may show their regard by giving me a gesture telling me I am "number one." That is what that finger means, right?
Both sides of the Kankakee River Valley, Loda Hill and the rise out of Ludlow are a couple more examples of the grades on this line. Your speed up the hill leaving Homewood is a good indication of how slow you will be going up Loda. If you make a pick up en route and add more tonnage, your speed up Loda will be even slower. One afternoon after developing a bit of engine trouble, I climbed Loda with a loaded grain train at 2 MPH. I’ll bet I was really popular that day.
I have not had the opportunity to observe it up close and personal, but in Southern Illinois the CNIC has Cobden Hill. This is quite the grade that has trains on their hands and knees, even with three or more high horsepower units pulling heavy trains. Cobden Hill was used as the test ground when IC was looking to acquire new power in the mid 90’s. Both General Electric and Electro Motive Division of General Motors brought out their big power for testing on the stiff grade. Obviously EMD won out as SD70’s were acquired. The Mechanical Department personnel involved with the tests told me the SD70’s outperformed the Dash 9’s of GE quite impressively.
Train length and weight restrictions generally do not apply to intermodal and unit trains. In fact, UP is looking to operate 220 plus car unit coal trains using distributed power (DP). DP trains have one or more locomotives placed within and/or at the rear of the train. These units are operated by remote control by the Engineer from the lead locomotive of the train. There are various ways to set up the DP units to operate. They can and do reduce in train forces, which is good for the shippers as damage in transit is reduced. It has been shown that trains can be operated longer and faster without compromising safety. These trains can brake and accelerate faster. Those waiting at road crossings probably aren’t too thrilled about the prospect of a 240 car train rolling past while they wait.
Bu like everything else, DP operation is not perfect. There are situations in which the radio link between the mother unit and the in train DP units is lost for a few moments or even several minutes. This can create problems. >From a couple of Engineers I have talked to about DP operation, they have developed tricks of the trade to compensate for the radio link problems.
Back in 1978 when the Norfolk & Western was gripped by a strike, the managers attempting to operate what trains they could during the work stoppage ran a 500 car coal train. While they did get it over the road with a few problems, they had a very difficult time getting it yarded. There were several break in two’s of the train. An Engineer I used to work with on the MoPac had a brother who was an officer with the N&W and involved in the operation of this train. He told of numerous difficulties in getting the train yarded and the fact that it took about eight hours to get the yarding completed.
Intermodal trains generally have less slack and do not weigh as much as many others. This allows for easier operation in most cases. A train of thirty, five pack, double stack cars is the equivalent of a one hundred fifty car train. Being there are only thirty couplings, there is far less slack in the train and less opportunity for break in two problems. A factor not always taken into consideration though is you have twice the weight of a regular intermodal train with oftentimes half the braking effort. Less wheels in the train means less brakes. The Engineer has to compensate for this in his or her train handling techniques should the locomotives not be equipped with dynamic braking. What you do encounter with intermodal trains though is tremendous drag or resistance. While they are generally not as heavy in tonnage, they offer a great deal of resistance to get up to track speed. This is why many railroads, especially BNSF, put quite a bit of power on their high priority intermodal trains. You want these trains to operate at, or very close to track speed consistently in order to maintain the tight schedules on which they operate.
Over the years, I have been presented the opportunity to run various types of trains of varying length and tonnage. By far though, the biggest and heaviest trains have been since I joined the IC which evolved into the CNIC after the merger. In reviewing my career, the Wisconsin Central probably best prepared me for working on the IC and CNIC. We operated heavy trains with barely enough power to get them over the road routinely. As I mentioned previously, I oftentimes had helper engines on the rear to assist me in getting up Byron Hill. The helpers, also referred to as pushers, would cut off at the top of the hill and we would proceed to Chicago with the power on the head end of the train. More often than not this had us doing the old "uphill slow, downhill fast" thing.
I did operate a 187 car train once while with the MoPac. I had two, Louisville & Nashville GP9’s as my power that trip. We ran from the Belt Railway of Chicago’s Clearing Yard to Yard Center, about fifteen miles. I never got over 12 MPH the entire time. It was right in the middle of the morning rush, so you know we made lots of new friends that day. I did not record the loads, empties, tonnage and length of that train and it was so many years ago, I really don’t remember.
I operated several 188 car train on the WC, although they were all empty hoppers being used in ore service. The biggest manifest train on the WC was 157 cars and around 11,400 tons. The heaviest train was a 120 car ore train weighing in at 15,500 tons. In all these instances I had three SD45’s for motive power. On the 120 car ore train I had two more SD45’s on the tail end of the train to push us up Byron Hill and we did so at about 9 MPH.
Since coming to the IC, I have operated even bigger and heavier trains routinely. The heaviest was in the spring of 2001. It was an ore train with some grain and manifest business added for good measure. I had 156 loads and 10 empties and it weighed in at 20,128 tons. I had four BNSF Dash 9-44C locomotives for power. The train actually ran very well as I had enough power to pull it without having to struggle all the way. What I had to be concerned about was too much tractive effort in getting it started on the side of the hill at Homewood. I didn’t want to pull it in two. It started good and the trip went totally uneventful, as we prefer them.
I have often had trains of 160 and 170 plus cars here. This is not an unusual or rare event. A few weeks ago I departed Markham heading south with 182 cars for about 11,000 feet and 14,000 tons. I did have three SD40’s to pull it, but it was still a slow and torturous, although uneventful trip. Just this past Friday night we had 179 cars with over 10,400 feet of train.
There have also been 11,000 and 12,000 foot intermodal trains. While not as heavy, they did not reach track speed as there was so much drag. Three engines did not overcome this factor and allow me to reach 60 MPH with the 11,000 foot train. To make matters worse, it was very windy. The wind created even more problems and my top speed was about 47 MPH.
This past Sunday (9 June) I reached a new personal best for total cars. We departed Markham on train 325 heading for Glenn Yard on Chicago’s Southwest Side with 192 cars. I was pulling 103 loads, 89 empties, 16,222 tons and 11,370 feet. I had three engines, the IC1026 and 1002 and the Grand Trunk Western 5854; two SD70’s and one GP38-2 totaling 10,000 horsepower. We had one hour, forty-five minutes to work when we departed Markham. On a good day with no delays and a reasonable sized train, it takes one and half hours to make the thirty-two mile run between Markham and Glenn. With this kind of train, we knew we had no chance of even making it at all. Now it was just see how far we could make it before all the sand in the hours of service glass ran out.
With all the slow speed running within the City of Chicago, the lousy signal system and the size and weight of the train, it was essentially a suicide mission. We had to run at 10 MPH for some five miles and also had two 25 MPH speed restrictions. With the two 25 MPH restrictions this meant having to bring the entire train through these limits before resuming, or attempting to resume track speed. We never even came close, although this didn’t seem to matter. I was told by one official that since we had three engines there should be no problem in having a train like this.
About eleven miles north of Markham, the alarm bells began to ring. This indicated a problem. I had a Student Engineer with me and sent him back to check out the problem. He reported the GTW 5854 was dead with the low water button popped. It would not reset and the unit was now along for the ride. This added about 135 or so tons of dead weight. With this unit now dead, there was absolutely no chance of making any speed. Well, so much for no problem.
We proceeded through the 10 MPH territory with its undulating (up and down) territory with all its curves and lousy signaling with no problem. As the head end reached the home signals at Bridgeport the Operator at 16th Street Tower (the Metra Rock Island District crossing) called and told me we just cleared him, the train looked good and FRED was flashing. We had just over a mile to the Panhandle. This is the crossing at Brighton Park with Norfolk Southern and CSX. We had less than fifteen minutes to work at this point and the Panhandle would be the end of the line for us.
We pulled up and stopped with about ten minutes to work. The Operator at Corwith Tower (BNSF crossing) called and wanted to know how many cars we had. When I told him he sounded shocked and amazed. I also told him we were about out of time and would pass away right there. We finished up some five miles short of Glenn Yard, although we would have had to pull well past the yard to get it all yarded had we had the time.
The fact I got the train that far with no problem (except the loss of the engine) indicates years of experience paying off. It also makes those who make decisions to run trains like this look like geniuses. Anytime things go good, they look good. When they don’t, well….
Some years ago, the Burlington Northern operated a 222 car coal train through Lincoln, NE. Unfortunately, they had lots of problems and tied up much of the town. We have operated large trains here and had problems with them as well. There have been break in two’s and other problems. When a large train has problems, it generally spins off a complete set of other problems.
One Engineer had 163 cars last year and managed to break two knuckles in the train. As a result, the entire railroad was tied up as nobody could get around him until the train was put back together. Along with two other trains, we got to sit and wait until the situation was remedied and the train cleared up. Our delay was over an hour. The other trains were waiting even longer.
Generally when problems like this occur, they occur in spots that have nobody to assist them nearby and oftentimes with poor access to reach the train. And of course, nobody in charge wants to take credit for running the big trains like this when things go wrong.
Another factor not considered with big trains like this is braking them. With the longer trains, it takes longer to accomplish the braking as the air is traveling over a much greater distance. Reaction to braking will be slower. We have the Wabtec (formerly Pulse) TrainLink ES end of train telemetry units that assist is as they mirror on the tail end what I do on the head end when it comes to applying the brakes. It assists by making a like brake application starting at the tail end of the train as well. They do work very well. However, it is very rare that I actually get one of these units on the big monster trains though.
It also takes longer for a release to occur. The TrainLink ES cannot assist me here and recharge the system and get the brakes to release faster. That air has to come from the head end of the train and it can take time to reach the tail end. The brakes do not always release uniformly on manifest trains, so extra care is needed and required to assure a break in two does not occur. And if you misjudged a little bit, you may actually slow down too much before getting a complete release of the brakes. If you are going a slow enough speed, you pretty much have to come to a complete stop. If you don’t, there is the chance you could break it in two. Doing a running release on a really big train, that is, releasing the brakes on a moving train without stopping, can be tricky at slower speeds.
Another by-product of big trains like this is they don’t fit anywhere. The 181 and 182 car trains I mentioned earlier were too long to fit in two of the sidings on the Chicago Subdivision. They also didn’t fit between many road crossings at places we have to stop at times. Two that come to mind are in the Kankakee/Bradley area and between Gilman and Onarga, IL. In both cases, the distance between the road crossings in question is about 10,400 feet. If we would have to stop at either location with a train like this to wait on a meet, we will have at least one crossing blocked.
In one instance a couple of years ago, we had 181 cars for 11,200 feet of train. As we were heading south out of Markham, the Chicago South Dispatcher called and told us we would head in at Peotone to let Amtrak 391 around us. She was surprised when I told her it would not work as we would not fit at Peotone. At first she suggested giving us the signal at South Peotone to give us the head room we would need to pull all the way in and then out the south end enough to clear North Peotone. I explained this would not work as in order to get 391 by us, we would then have to back up to clear South Peotone. In order to accomplish this, we would have to shove over the road crossing (Wilmington Road) at North Peotone to clear up the south end. And in order to make this shove, the Conductor would have to protect the move and Wilmington Road. Once this was accomplished and we were ready to head south, he would then have to walk the two plus miles of train. And we would have not one, but two road crossings blocked.
In the end, logic prevailed. Instead of doing the Peotone shuffle, we were sent to the siding at Kankakee and 391 ran around us there. 391 took quite the hit for a delay though as we had to enter and roll through Kankakee Siding at 20 MPH. And being we only had two SD40 locomotives producing a total of 6000 horsepower, we never reached the 50 MPH maximum speed of this train so the delay was even greater.
In the end, we got the train over the road without problems with the train itself. We just struggled and crawled along to get it over the road. This attitude brings up several questions;
How was it in 1985 the industry insisted they could make oodles of money and run short, fast trains to the shippers delight with a crew of two, but now they can’t they accomplish this feat in 2002?
And also, is bigger really better?
Ya, size really does matter.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
Ok Pel Bay Dave SR gave me some breaking News for service changes this weekend.
No.4,5 Trains running Local from 125 St to Brooklyn Bridge both directions.
No. 4 Line Split Service
1. Woodlawn to Brooklyn Bridge
2. Brooklyn Bridge to Utica or New Lots.
Single track operation from Bowling Green to Boro Hall
No.5 Line
- Dyre Ave to Brooklyn Bridge.
No.6 Line: Normal
all three trains turning at Brooklyn Bridge!? thats gonna cause some serious problems i just know it.oh the chaos that'll be happening,especially with the hundreds and hundreds of clueless passengers who never know anything at all.
Since there's a loop, it shouldn't be too hard, provided they don't waste time around crew changes. Actually, they could skip the whole 'empty out the train' deal and whoever ignores / doesn't understand the announcements is treated to a trip back uptown.
There are no crew changes at Brooklyn Bridge (or Bowling Green or South Ferry for that matter).
Oh that's gonna be one big mess!
Or, as one Denver radio personality used to say, a melluvahess.
Do you suppose they may just let people stay on board through City Hall Loop to keep things moving?
If you want you can ride the City Hall loop anytime. Its now mainline track. Thats also why the No.6 has a bad homeless problem at night its because we can't kick them off the train.
Thanks for the tip. I will be sure to do that in October as long as it's still OK then.
Dang, IRT trying to be like the BMT in south brooklyn this weekend??
whats the purpose of this G.O. anyway? I mean single track service along the tunnel between Boro Hall and Bowling Green? Are they replacing third rail panels or something?
Wow -- and none of this is posted online! I can't wait to see the confusion at Brooklyn Bridge as trains full of tourists think they're going to Fulton but actually end up right back at Brooklyn Bridge.
I'm surprised the Joralemon tunnel isn't being closed entirely, with the 4/5 terminating at Bowling Green and passengers for Brooklyn being directed to the 1/2 at Fulton.
I know since this is not posted on the NYCT service notices that will make things worst because who one who have a clue that they need to wait for a No.4 shuttle to Brooklyn.
Let me be the first to say it is a mess, chaos like crazy. That G.O. started tonite 12am. First thing first this was my trip step by step. I was working out of Dyre and finish at 23:07. My car was at Utica because that where I was on Board and picked up a job that started out of New Lots Yard. OK here it goes like I said I finish at 23:07 so I caught the 23:18 Dyre to E180 transfer to the 2 which told 10mins. Ok transfer at 149 GC for the 4 what a big mistake. Because I didn't know about that G.O. being that I haven't worked many jobs pass midnite lately. Ok the 4 was suppose to go local from 125 to BB but a 6 stalled so we went express down to 42nd street than local to BB. Once at BB we got off and was told to go to the uptown platform for a uptown train that was going back downtown. O yeah I can't forget this they only had one platform worker on the downtown side. Ok so we go the the uptown platform to wait for a 4. Low and behold the 4 we was on went around the loop and open its door. So of course everyone jumps on thinking this is the train. I knew it wasn't but you know these people. Ok after getting off the train we were waiting and waiting and waiting but no train. Two 4 trains and Two 6 trains came and went around the loop and back uptown but no downtown train. Finally a 4 train comes on the uptown platform filled with people. Now these people have to get off and cross the platform for the uptown 4 or 6. But they were just as clueless as the rest of the people. So now you have people on the platform rushing into the train and people on the train getting off but not all of them. Because again their clueless on whats going on. Ok finally we're off back downtown. But wait we still have the single track thru the tube. So we sitting in Wall Street for 10 mins for 2 uptown 4 to go pass. Now its our turn thru the tube finally in brooklyn local of course. Now I'm at my stop of Utica to get my car at 01:40. Now this is the funnies part of this whole thing. That nightmare was at midnite hour (Imagine the chaos around in the morning and afternoon and early evening) Thanks God I'm off weekends
While on duty late Monday night, I heard a radio transmission between a T/O and 149 Tower. T/O said, "Mott Tower, you have the 6 car transfer from 239 yard to Corona coming at you". I assume 6 R-62 A cars arrived at Corona sometime early Tuesday morning.
And they are definitely not referring to a Redbird transfer (if there are any left on the Bronx-bound IRT lines)???
It's possible that they were referring to a redbird transfer. Hopefully, a subtalker who is keeping track of R-62 arrivals at Corona Yard will let us know for sure.
Perhaps the transfer consisted of 2110 and a 5 car set-1711-1715/1671-1675/1716-1720 or something in that matter.
It could also be possible that it was 2105-2110.
If it were redbirds, which ones would it be-R33ML? And which ones?
88xx-89xx-90xx-91xx-92xx? I thought the 7 was done dealing with redbirds?
I guess we'll never know.
#2111 7 Flushing Local
#9394 7 Flushing Express
Of course there are Redbirds left in the Bronx. The 5 is still mostly Redbirds and the 4 still has all the Redbirds it's had for the past 15+ years. The 6 has none left (except for an occasional loaner from the 5, apparently) and the 2 only has two trains left.
I just returned from shea stadium. I didnt see any "extra" redbirds there. Just some single R 33s and some GE R 36s and a 9 car train of R 62As with 1690 as the north motor. Maybe the 7 might get a handful of GE R 33s??
Good ol' 1690. That's my favorite car. Transverse cab, great brakes, and the most comfortable seat I've ever had in my short career as a T/O. I'll find out more about this 6-car transfer from 239 yard to Corona, over the next week.
You don't know how much it saddens me to see the "redbirds" being replaced on the 7. Yesterday morning, I watched 3 local trains go by @ 74th St. Broadway - not one of them a redbird! I will not ride an R-62 (just isn't in me). Sad to think, in a few months time they'll be sitting at the bottom of the ocean, somewhere off Delaware. What a waste!
"Sad to think, in a few months time they'll be sitting at the bottom of the ocean, somewhere off Delaware. What a waste! "
Actually not.
I heard that the bay was full, and so they will occupy yard space until they can find another ocean to dump them into.
: ) Elias
So you will boycott the "7" from now on?
Soon, the entire IRT will be off-limits to you. Are you sure you about this?
To be honest, I only ride the "7" for recreational purposes. I just like the "redbirds" so much. I could take the "E" straight to my destination. At least that line will have old cars for a while yet.
R62As aren't commenplace in my yahd like EPs. Everyone is gonna get deadboids...239th crew #6 does boids exclusively and 180/239 teams are getting burned out with #5 dirtboids. Yah got some empty siding...yer gonna get some BOIDS. 207th is stacking em up on the tracks cuz Delaware din wanna no mo rustyboids anymore. ASPCR de CI Peter
My relatives in the Greenpoint section of Brooklyn are still fighting (along with others) the changeover at Court Square to the V. There is a rumor "going around the neighborhood" that the MTA is considering extending the G to Queens Plaza, as well as moving the "airport style" walkway there too. Do any of the good folks of subtalk have some info about this? -Nick
Turning the G at Queens Plaza during the weekdays would pose a problem, tying up local and express tracks. Doesn't sound like a good idea.
If the F ran 53st and the V ran 63st, that would be less of a problem because the G won't interfere with a crossing V b but this would cause more confusion again flip-floppin the F and V once again.
If the F ran 53st and the V ran 63st, that would be less of a problem because the G won't interfere with a crossing V b but this would cause more confusion again flip-floppin the F and V once again
So if this seems more more logical, why did they switch the F from 53 to 63, and put the V into 53rd St?
it isnt more logical they did it that way to reduce the overcrowding on the F,yet some idiots on QB still are so stupid they REFUSE to take the V because its to 'slow'. like they REALLY have to go somewhere in such a rush,please.
Actually no its not. G Train-ers at Court Sq would then have to transfer 2 times to get from where they are to local stops at QB if the F ran 53st. The point of the G when it was being built was to provide a quicker way to get from Bklyn to Queens without passing through Manhattan. Before the V was created, I rided the G frequently to get from Church av/Kensington to 71av for work. It's quicker that way but now, I rather take the F all the way to 71av.
PLUS- even if the F ran 53st and the V ran 63st, extending the G to Qns Plza would still cause some congestion on the express and local lines.
Downtown Brooklyn used to be a more important destination. After the war it declined. It has experienced somewhat of a revival recently, but not as big as could be.
If Brooklyn had never been occupied, Downtown Brooklyn would still have declined, but it would have experienced more of a revival, like Jersey City.
The history of Greater New York is that of subordination of the occupied counties in favor of Manhattan. The entire purpose of GNY was so that New York could have room to expand its port facilities without having to deal with (GASP) other jurisdictions. Selfish New York already had control of the entire East River, G-d forbid they should learn to play nice with other cities. Notice how the subway ends so close to the Westchester border where there are major centers just across the line in Yonkers and Mount Vernon.
That plan doesn't work. Before you waste energy beating the dead horse into a pulp, refer to the archives.
Ok, thanks for the info. -Nick
You've got that right, we Greenperters are still a fuming.
Quick easy solution to the situation IMO, send the "R" to 179th, as
QB Local, "V" operates local thru 63rd Street, "F" QB Express via 53rd St, except nights & weekends, when "V" doesn't run. Then we can send the "G" [GG] back to Continental 24/7.
:-) Sparky
Aside from the V being unavailable to offload passengers from the E (which it is doing now), this plan also doesn't work because V and G trains would still have to be unloaded at Continental. With current NYCT policy, this takes some time. You'd delay Rs behind you while unloading a V or a G.
Then could the F run to 179 St- Hillside Av exp and the G/R/V also go to 179 St via Hillside local? They have 8 relay tracks at 179 St. Why not take advantage of them?
Because you have to screw up service all along the line to get there.
The archives are full of great posts (look at David Greenberger's stuff) about this.
hey,if they dont like it,they can just move to Queens and thats the end of it ok!? the TA did this to reduce overcrowding on the E and F which was absoultely ridiculous everytime you looked at those trains during the rush hours.every single train,in its entirety was packed,and they usually came one RIGHT behind the other,they still do and still its packed sometimes.So if they dont like the change too bad,its never ever gonna go back to the way it was before,im 100% sure of it.They can move to Queens or just deal with the transfering at Court Sq. sides whats the big deal? its actually too much to ask to walk from the G platform to the E/V platform? i call that laziness.
Anything is possible in this world, but what you heard was likely no more than a rumor generated in the neighborhood to try to pressure MTA into reversing its decision.
The current service plan balances the needs of Queens Blvd. riders (900,000 a day) against a far smaller number of G riders (who still deserve the best service possible) as well or better than any other plan proposed so far.
If another express track is ever built through Queens and is able to utilize spare 63rd St tunnel capacity, then perhaps one can muse about the return of full-length G service.
arent they doing that now in the Sunnyside yards as part of the LONG I SLAND RAILROAD route to Grand Central?
I understand the situation to be be that with the way Continental is operated, only 16tph or so can be turned around without causing massive delays. This is currently made up of 6-9tph on the V train and 6-7tph on the R train. This leaves no space for the 5-6tph on the G train. This is because it is a stub terminal with relays beyond the platform. Loop terminals can handle much more - for instance the very tight loop at Brooklyn Bridge on the 6 train has a maximum frequency of 2-3 minutes - that is 20-30tph. This means that if there were even a tight loop at Continental, the 17-22tph of the G, R and V trains combined could be turned around. Now look at this image:
http://www.nycsubway.org/yards/jamaica/bigjamaica.gif
The Queens Local tracks from Continental enter on the top right. Switches are in place to get onto the left hand most track in the yard (without any reverse moves). It then loops round and becomes the right hand most track but one, then goes straight out as the Queens Local back towards Long Island City once more. So why not declare it revenue trackage and let passengers ride it like the City Hall loop? It would give the Continental terminal enough capacity to satisfy everyone.
(If anyone mentions train cleaning - the other terminals of the G, R and V trains are much less congested and would give much more time for the trains to be cleaned)
(Car shortage - the V train is allegedly running at 52% capacity - if that is anywhere near the case, the extra cars could be found by cutting the V train to six 75' cars (69% Capacity))
Another way would be to make the current 2 relay tracks descend to a lower level to a relay yard (6-8 tracks?). Then, the G R and V can terminate there.
"So why not declare it revenue trackage and let passengers ride it like the City Hall loop?"
Because the reason for the train clearing rule is to make sure you don't have drunk/confused passengers on a train that's totally empty except for the crew, and that might not get back to the general civilian occupied world for quite a while.
Imagine the reaction of a belligerent drunk if the train goes through the detergent spray machine shown on the map!
You're missing the point completely.
Reread the archives on the subject. This is a dead horse, and the MTA is not likely to bring it up again anytime soon.
The V's running at half-capacity is also likely a persistent rumor generated by folks with an axe to grind. We need to see actual counts at rush hour and offpeak over time.
(There is a rumor "going around the neighborhood" that the MTA is considering extending the G to Queens Plaza, as well as moving the "airport style" walkway there too.)
I believe that constructing new trackage and a platform under or near the current QP station, and rebuilding the station, was possibly under consideration. An improvement on that scale, in addition to costing lots of money, would take years to plan and then build.
"I believe that constructing new trackage and a platform under or near the current QP station, and rebuilding the station, was possibly under consideration. An improvement on that scale, in addition to costing lots of money, would take years to plan and then build. "
I floated that idea on Subtalk a few times, then wrote MTA, mentioning it as one option, albeit expensive. Others on this site pointed out significant engineering problems, peculiar to the Queens Plaza area, with accomplishing this.
How about descending the 2 current 71av relay tracks to a lower level with more relay tracks (4-8?)
There already are 4 relay tracks.
Maybe they should have the G pop out of the ground alongside the bridge and run down to a ferry terminal at the waterfront. Same thing could be done in Red Hook. The G doesn't serve Manhattan, the main transit destination, but it could at least link the waterfront to LIC and Downtown Brooklyn.
(a) Impossible. The resulting mess at Queens Plaza would be, um, very messy.
(b) There's no point. The transfer passageway at Court Square is quite short by subway standards, even ignoring the moving walkways.
Your old posts on the subject, in the archives, are very good. I have recommended that people read them.
No, if anything, even the extended weekend service you have now you could still lose. I just saw some document that was a result of the Feb. Citizens Advisory meeting, and people wanted weekend V service, and the TA said this was the original plan, and they would look again into cutting the G back to Ct. Sq. all times to run the V.
I've ridden the R68 several times, and to others who have ridden them, you know how slow they go. The express run on the D is so slow, and these cars are only 14 years old. Is there any type of overhaul that can be given to speed things up, or can we assume these cars will barely last 30 years? I realize the R44s and R46s have had their problems, but at least you get good speeds with them! -Nick
1st thing, you don't know jack. 2nd thing, they'll last almost forever. They're one of the most reliable equipment around. You're only ridden thing several times, remember? So a Lincoln Towncar is slower than an old VW Beetle? Afterall, the VW is so jerky and is nice and old...
errr...I have a Towncar, and I can easily pass most anything else without effort on the highway.
Getting back to the R68 'slowness', let Nick avoid all R68's so he will get a MU he would be happy with.
If he's waiting on the Concourse or Brighton Local, he's got a l-o-n-g wait!
Sad thing is, I thought the 68's were QUITE adequate and having been with the show in the days of "muscle trains" they seemed to run JUST as fast as an R1/9 where the timers PERMITTED them to. And I know speed just by watching the pillars go by like the days before speedos.
And 68's generally have working motors on every car. :)
The R-68s have a higher gear ratio than other cars, so they're capable of moving swiftly.
I also watch the I-beams as they go by.
The Kawasaki built "Hippos" (R-68As) can go at a reasonably good speed. I've been on one that has perhaps hit 40-45 m.p.h. on a good straight stretch of track.
#3 West End Jeff
When we came down last time, after reading oh so much whining about the "hippos" here, made it a point to check them out and found them MOST adequate and just as good as anything else that rode the rails. I did end up on one car with Heypaul that definitely had wheel bearing problems and was screeching up the Brighton line and Broadway the whole trip. Took a run on the D also to see the "other hippos" and they were very nice as well. Heard the PA noise on the upper CPW run and knew what that was as soon as I heard the DC whine. All in all though, they are NOT slow. If anything, they're as smooth as the 44's when they were new.
Did you fing yourself wanting to supply your own bull and pinion gear sounds? Heypaul likes R-1/9 compressor sounds.
You should have heard Wayne and me on the L a few years back while in the 14th St. tunnel. Talk about laboring BMT standard sounds...
Nah, I learn to accept equipment for what it is ... I *do* miss the groans of course, that's why I showed up for work every day. NYCTA was the ONLY gig I've had where I never took a sick day. :)
The "Hippos" aren't as bad as they're made out to be. In fact, some of the quietest cars are the "Hippos". Their speed isn't so bad either. They feel slower since they're more massive than let's say a Slant R-40.
#3 West End Jeff
I think I'm going to time some express runs from 59th to 125th on trains of each car type on the A and D to see for myself if there is any difference in running times.
As long as the signals clear on time, the trains will. Whereas there used to be slight differences from one car class to the other, they're all boringly identical in speed on any given line these days ... about the only differences there are is in operators and even there, very little.
Hey Selkirk, I finally know what you mean by that bearing noise. I was on a Q over the weekend and heard it as it went over curves, switches, braking, and accelerating. It's not a horrible noise. It was car 2807 BTW.
was that the train in an accibent somewhat recently?
Coulda been the same car although I heard from several folks that a number of cars had the same problem. Last thing I'm going to do though is knock on a cab door and request a defect sheet. :)
The noise has something with power distribution as well. I think the more strain on the motor, the louder the noise. Sometimes at places where there are gaps in the 3rd rail, the sound is audible on the speaker but dissapears when it comes back.
This sound isn't the one that comes from the speaker, but I know what you're talking about.
Oh! The whining motor sound?
Lest us not forget, back in prime time days on the IND, those pesky timers and WD's were few and none.
Nice time to ride a 2 motor R unit or big momma D Type.
Lest us not forget, back in prime time days on the IND/BRT, those pesky timers and WD's were few and none.
Nice time to ride a 2 motor R unit or big momma D Type.
Agreed on the Town car comment, I won one as well. As for the 68s, they are extremely reliable, or so I've heard. Many a time our very own Train dude, has published the numbers for the mean distance between failures on the 68s and they are some of the highest if not the highest around. I think that reliability in Mass transit is more important than "how fast does the ride feel".
Agreed on the Town car comment, I own one as well. As for the 68s, they are extremely reliable, or so I've heard. Many a time our very own Train dude, has published the numbers for the mean distance between failures on the 68s and they are some of the highest if not the highest around. I think that reliability in Mass transit is more important than "how fast does the ride feel".
The R68's are my favorite car, even though it looks a little battered with the scratchitti. They run very well, and ride very smooth. I am sure that with the TLC that both Concourse and CI shops are giving them, they will be around for a while, hopefully as long as the Budd Brightliners.
And the towncar does it nice and smooth and quiet eh?
errr...I have a Towncar, and I can easily pass most anything else without effort on the highway.
Getting back to the R68 'slowness', let Nick avoid all R68's so he will get a MU he would be happy with.
If he's waiting on the Concourse or Brighton Local, he's got a l-o-n-g wait!
"1st thing, you don't know jack"
Uhm, I know plenty about the New York City Subway. If you feel that I made a mistake, or just disagree with me; than thats another thing. -Nick
"you know how slow they go. The express run on the D is so slow, and these cars are only 14 years old. Is there any type of overhaul that can be given to speed things up, or can we assume these cars will barely last 30 years?"
How fast was your train going? How fast are the other trains? And that last question was just complete crap. They won't do anything for "railfans". And 30 years, c'mon... gimmie a break. They won't scrap something called "slow".
Is jack all that important? I thought Jill, Slim and John were in charge...
Chill, dude, chill...
:0)
Definately not Joe. :-)
If the ride is smoother it seems slower...
And they run slowly becaus the D has so many timers, it is impossible to get a great speed. If you want to see an affective R68 run, take the N through the 60th tube, towards 59th st.
I see you've found out the real secret about subway cars. They are like people and slow down as they get older. Sadly, the answer to your question is, Nope, there is no hope for the R-68s. An overhaul will not help. They should just be run until they fall apart. If you are smart, you won't be riding them any more. No telling wen one may simply keel over.
You are cruel!
Those are his cars, after all. He's in charge of the crew that takes care of them.
The ones that keel over would be from Concourse you know!!
Yah the 68's are REAL SLOW in the 60th St. Tube, they are crawling at 55mph if you ask me.
And he does a fine job. The R68's are comfotable and reliable, and will last as long as the MTA wants them to.
Hippos require lots of water or they'll dry out < G >
Seriously my grandson loves to play jungle jim in them off-peek, so they are good for something ;-)
Gives me an idea, well take one at Branford, put it in the middle of the loop, put stairs on one end & a slide into a pool on the other.
A Hippo as a day care device, sounds like a money maker.
Mr rt__:^)
at 93,000 Lbs I think one would drive your tracks into that Ct. mud.
Possibly, although BMT standard 2775 has been there for more than ten years and hasn't sunk yet.:-)
LOL..thanks for the info! I'll still try out the "N" service, but I dunno what will happen. -Nick
Just give them all new mechanical parts!
Okay, that seems like a great idea. I should be ashamed for not realizing that on my own. WHich mechanical parts should we change? There are so many, I wouldn't know where to begin.
Get me some spares, bro ... I need at least two skyhooks and a set of compressor cavitators and oh yeah, I also need a pair of left-handed ratchets. And of course the BCO reverser valves. My BVE layout won't be complete without that and oh yeah ... the cab door needs a haircut. :)
The is okay! Isn't it?
The frame is okay! Isn't it?
The R68's have not aged that well in appearane. I don't know what it is, but they just seem beat up on the interior. THe windows seem to be much worsely scratched, and even the "mirrored" walls look beat. They sometimes look older looking than the R46's!
R68As look better. Their body is smoother and shinier. That and the metal window borders help alot. The insides don't reflect clearly. They simply mirror the light. That's why it looks like an old funhouse on the R68s.
Yes the R68's are kind of like a funhouse on the intside. I never particularly cared for them too much. I'd don't know what it is, maybe it is the mirrored interior, they just look so beat up to me.
I don't know what it is, but they just seem beat up on the interior.
That's because they are beat up. People seem to like denting subway cars and scratching their windows. 68s are quite popular for those dents.
The R68's seem to take the scratching and denting much worse than the other cars.
The 68's have taken a beating from scratchitti vandals, but in no way do they look older than the R46's.
:-) Andrew
Maybe the T/O is not putting alot of torques into them, if you ever ride the W Line between Pacific St. & 36 St. N/B & S/B, you will see that the R-68's can pick up alot of speed on that long strecth, We just has discussion on that strecth and what speeds were achieved, the highest I've seen was 47-50 mph.
Yes, that and there are timers on that stretch and a T/O might not be able to speed it up especially if the train is heavier. For example. there are T/Os who charge up to the signals north of 7th Avenue to Atlantic Avenue during the day but simply aren't confident enough with a full train at rush hour.
I've ridden the R68 several times, and to others who have ridden them, you know how slow they go. The express run on the D is so slow,
Only on the D line? Hey, if there is a grudge in the SubTalk community, prove them wrong. Everything is according to perception. MTA didn't set specific standards for speeds on certain lines and equipments [unless for speed restrictions]. (Ex. D goes slow, R goes fast)
RIde the D line again and reconsider your opinion. I rode it this past summer and cruises at a nice 30-35mph. (30 for sure, same for the A line)
and these cars are only 14 years old.
MTA likes to live long with its equipment. If things go slower, get a cab! (j/k of course)
I realize the R44s and R46s have had their problems, but at least you get good speeds with them!
It's logically where the different cars are assigned in the system. Consider the M line, a rather SLOW line. If for some reason the R68's went there and the R44/46's remained where they are now, you can't judge that the R68's are SLOW just because the line is SLOW.
Consider the 60th St. tube on the N,R, or W trains westbound. We hit 56mph on the N. Moreover, one of the smoothest rides in a dash I've experienced.
The cars look fine to me. At least they don't SCREECH when they brake, and have a nice, air release when they stop and go.
To answer your question, yes, the R68 has hope. The R38's have less hope.
I was just wondering, if a relitive or friend died and they left behind a large collection of Railfan related objects, artifacts, photos, films, etc, or, if something was to happen to myself and I left behind my collection of railfan stuff, I was wondering, is there some place where these things can be donated to so that they aren't just thrown away?
Are there any museums or societies that would appriciate or even accept not just an old Atlantic Coast Line timetable from 1929, but also a tub of some 700 random railfan photographs taken around the northeast?
Due to recent advances in publishing there is just a wave of railfan books with all these cool colour photographs from the past 50 years of railroading. There was and still is an army of railbuffs out there shooting up film and video and if those are what made it into books there must be 10 times that amount floating around unseen. Like it or not, there is a large segment of the railfan community that is rapidly aging toward oblivion and the very real possibility that their life's work of documenting this nation's rail history might vanish into a dumpster via the hands of an un-knowing/caring offspring who is more worried about selling a house than preserving old trinkets.
Is there a giant archive where the railfans of the future can go to search through the collected works of railfans of the past? If so, how does one go about making a donation.
Not surprisingly, such material is often offered to local NRHS chapters. Several years ago Mrs. Trebino offered her late husband's collection of train negatives to the West Jersey Chapter. The Chapter Historian has spent much time trying to identify dates and locations from examination of negatives and prints. A number of the photos have been uploaded to the Chapter's website and can be seen by scrolling down and clicking on the "live" negative numbers.
Collections of magazines, timetables and artifacts are also offered. If our Chapter can't use the offered stuff, we refer them to the National office (which in our case is conveniently located in Philly).
Some collections get snapped up from the railfan's widow by people willing to pay bucks, and maybe from there to eBay, some get willed and divided among friends, some end up in the trash or an attic.
There is no one organization that I could cite which I would be sure could make the collections available to public use and viewing. The ERA is an obvious choice, but they really don't have the facilities to allow the collections to be properly preserved AND viewed, IMO.
New-York Historical Society would have been good in an earlier era, but they seem to be much more closed to all but "in" researchers, at least if my comparative experience with them in the '70s vs. the '60s is any indication.
Maybe Bronx or Brooklyn Historical Societies or the Brooklyn Public Library.
Wonder what happened to the late Arnold Joseph's collection of railfan items?
--Mark
Well, if I had transit/railfan related items that I was looking to donate, I'd give serious thought to specific organziations that would best give the item(s) attention. For instance, if it was a 'generic' subway lantern that DOES NOT specify division (IRT or BMT/IND) then I might feel compelled to give it to say, the Municipal Archives or the Transit Museum. However, IF the item were specifically marked BRT or BMT I'd likely want it to go to either the Brooklyn Historical Society, or the Brooklyn Public Library's Brooklyn Collection as opposed to the TA Museum or the Municipal Archives Society.
That's just me, but there are other places to make donations as well.
Certainly local railway or trolley museums should be approached too to see if they can accept materials. Here at TMNY, we are still in the process of cataloging our photographic collection. The TMNY catalog can be viewed at www.tmny.org/tmnyarch.html (look for the section "browse the database"). About 2/3 of the photos were donated by the estate of one gentleman.
Well I am sure that big ticket artifacts would be easy to donate/sell, but what about archives of private photos? I'm sure the average railfan can rack up thousands of photos and hours of video over a lifetime. Some shots would be cool, others not so interesting, but all are a moment in time with the possibility to help some railfan in the future, captured for all times but ONLY IF they are kept and stored property.
What sort of place would accept someone walking w/ a large coardboard full of a lifetime's worth of railfanning?
What sort of place would accept someone walking w/ a large coardboard full of a lifetime's worth of railfanning?
You could go to a Greenberg show or one of the small shows such as the Winslow show at the fire house and ask several of the vendors who sell photos whether there would be a market for yours.
I'm not looking to sell or do anything w/ my photos right now. I was just organizing them and I got to wondering what would be the ultimate fate of my or other people's RR photos. They probably don't have any value aside from the fact that at some time in the future my photo might be just what some historian or book making guy might need. You never know.
Btw, a collection becomes infinitely more valuable if it
is already cataloged! If you show up with the proverbial
cardboard box, a curator will have no idea if there is any
value contained therein. If everything is cataloged then that
has saved the person a lot of work.
What sort of place would accept someone walking w/ a large cardboard full of a lifetime's worth of railfanning?
Well, as some folks have already said, local NRHS chapters often end up with such items. On a related note, when my great-uncle passed away in 1986, he had a collection of over 400,000 covered bridge slides and negatives, taken between 1915 and 1984. Fortunately, they were well organized, so I was able to divide them by geographic region and distribute them to covered bridge historical societies in the appropriate regions. The same principle holds true for railfan items.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is no one place for railway-related archival material. There
are hundreds of museums, libraries and societies that could accept
the material. Collections policies vary widely. Usually, though,
no one institution is a perfect match for 100% of an individual's
personal collection. A responsible curator will sort the collection
and offer the non-relevant items to another institution that would
collect them.
Maybe one day there will be a grand online union catalog linking
all of these public and private collections. Some places have
done some work on putting collections online, mostly photos as
they are the easiest to process. There are no universally accepted
standards for cataloging railway-specific materials or for sharing
catalog records, as there are for books.
If you are a member of the NRHS, they have an article that they will send to you regarding how to donate your collection via a Will.
Most of my stuff is destined either for NRHS - PHL Chapter or CERA.
Check with the NRHS Philadelphia office. They probably have reprints of the article that appeared in one of their Bulletins many years ago.
Jim K.
Chicago
NRHS donation information
This is an excellent discussion of a serious problem. Through the decades yours truly has had serious discussions with many of the great collectors. However, no railway type museum in this area has a library, and the ERA library is not staffed full time. It was a shame to see the Schlegel, Arcara and Watson collections facing dubious fates. The Watson collection was one of the most professional and best organized collections ever, but neither ERA nor BERA, both of which he nurtured and supported, had facilities to preserve his priceless items. BERA's 1977 Master Plan (as well as one produced in the late 60s) had a library as a prominent feature, for it was realized that every museum, by definition, must have a supporting research library and archives. It was also realized that the founding members, who possessed some fine collections, were not getting any younger. The excellent suggestions made here in SubTalk do provide some good solutions for the problem.
I can speak for the Bronx County Historical Society, which has a full time library staff and a very safe and professional library with state-of-the-art preservation technology. It also has modern, temperature controlled fireproof archives with professional archivists working during normal business hours. However, it really only wants Bronx related items. Anyone who chooses the Society as the repository for his or her collection will know that it will always be open for research. After leaving BERA yours truly headed that Society for more than a decade and during that time it professionalized itself and vowed not only to become THE research center for all things Bronx, but to generate books from the materials. The number of books now in print is large, and the income from these publications is important. This, in my opinion, is what ERA and many of the railway and trolley museums need to do. It took a long and extraordinary effort with the Society, but for the last 15 years it has been a wonderful repository for valuable collections. Again, anyone with parts of railroad/traction collections that are Bronx related is welcome to visit the offices, library and archives to look them over. The number is (718) 881-8900. Call during business hours. As for my own traction library...
I was looking at the time table of the new pick and saw that the M will be running OPTO on Weekends only. I guess that the R143's are going to ready to run there by then.
Also the N and W did flip flop roll as was posted before.
Robert
I did not read far enough down to see this was posted aready.
Robert
I couldn't believe my eyes. Last night I thought I saw what was an R-142 (it looked pretty new, like the stuff on the Subtalk index page graphics) running along the busways in Pittsburgh along Liberty Ave. I don't know where the hell it was drawing power from and what's keeping it gliding along the busway but I assume they must have installed some trolley tracks on the busway. It seemed to be running under its own power. I didn't see anyone onboard, but that might be because not many people are out in Pittsburgh after about 10pm. This was about 11.30 I saw this. I didn't wait for another one to come by -- so I didn't know if this was a one off NYCTA test or whether Pittsburgh is acquiring some of the non-working examples of R-142 just to take them off NYCTA's hands.
Truth is stranger than fiction. For many years the Mayor of Pittsburgh was against heavy rail transit, and now they are running R142s on their busways. Weird.
Weren't you up till like 4AM last night? I think you need to get some sleep.
The only thing is that Pittsburgh's light rails don't have any third rails, it's all overhead. Were there any pantographs or anything like that? As you said, this is very strange and hard for me to believe as well.
And to add to that previous message, I just spoke with the port authority and they said no tracks have been installed on the busway. Might it have been on a carrier of some sort?
Where are the R-142s manufactured? Is Pittsburgh en route from the plant to NYC?
Mark
Aren't the cars built in Canada and then shipped to Plattsburgh??? I thought so...
Damn that bastard Platt.
R-142's in Pittsburgh ?
If that were true, it would have reported here as well as spread through the railfan grapevine.
Any photos to prove this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I have heard recently of people in Pittsburg who after Midnight begin to think that the trailer part of trucks are subway cars. Oh man, R142 on a busway-in Pittsburg-with no rails to ride on. I've heard it all.
Actually it could be true because it might be Mafia/corprate interests taking cars and selling them for steel and putting the money towards MTA's execs pockets that let them do this in the first place. Pittsburgh does have alot of steel refineries that could gut/scrap/salvage/melt subway cars.
>>Actually it could be true because it might be Mafia/corprate interests taking cars and selling them for steel and putting the money towards MTA's execs pockets that let them do this in the first place. Pittsburgh does have alot of steel refineries that could gut/scrap/salvage/melt subway cars.<<
I think it's time for you, AEM7 and some other young rocket scientists on this board to share a rubber room at Bellevue !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Some people don't have a sense of humour... nor do they even have a sense of humor...
Was that remark about R-142's seen in Pittsburgh funny ? Nobody's laughing. So much about a sense of humor.
Bill "Newkirk"
I am laughing at all the stupid people who thought that the remark was stupid. Just how anyone could be so stupid as to think that it is true, or that it isn't true and isn't even funny, is funny in its own right. Thanks for making my joke funny, everyone!
It could happen. People once thought that bacteria was rediculous. Imagine now someone who doesn't ever was his hands after wiping his ***.
Things change.
Sometimes people don't see or want to see the truth. We can't force anyone to belive anything they don't want, but we do have a right to make it known. There really isn't anything that is true or false in this universe; only things that WE as humans know about. Something said today maybe proven wrong tomorrow though many people don't know about it. All humans are mislead in someway or another. I wouldn't be able to tell you humans are always mislead because no one knows how yet in all ways. There maybe other beings who know more and have knoledge that humans don't know yet or have kept underwraps. We don't know all there is to know. The thing (God if you call it that) that created this universe only knows for sure. Yet it is weird that we don't know what made it/him/she?
There are many things people don't see or don't care to see. As human beings we owe it to are ourselves not to keep a secret for the better of humannity.
PS I not sure if this makes sense but I wrote it from my heart.
I put this in the Worng place!
It could happen. People once thought that bacteria was rediculous. Imagine now someone who doesn't ever was his hands after wiping his ***.
Things change.
Sometimes people don't see or want to see the truth. We can't force anyone to belive anything they don't want, but we do have a right to make it known. There really isn't anything that is true or false in this universe; only things that WE as humans know about. Something said today maybe proven wrong tomorrow though many people don't know about it. All humans are mislead in someway or another. I wouldn't be able to tell you humans are always mislead because no one knows how yet in all ways. There maybe other beings who know more and have knoledge that humans don't know yet or have kept underwraps. We don't know all there is to know. The thing (God if you call it that) that created this universe only knows for sure. Yet it is weird that we don't know what made it/him/she?
There are many things people don't see or don't care to see. As human beings we owe it to are ourselves not to keep a secret for the better of humannity.
PS I not sure if this makes sense but I wrote it from my heart.
The last steel mill in Pittsburgh closed years ago
There are sections of track for the 42S & 42L trolleys on one of the busways. IIRC. But you are right, it's only overhead power, where would a third rail shoe pick up any power?
Chuck
Where's AEM7 now? Are we fighting amoung ourselves? Give us proof of a R142 in Pittsburgh!
Just rediscovered SubTalk is back (last post was Feb 22), so apologies if this was covered previously.
Walking through Penn last week at 9:30 am or so, I noticed that NJT is now using the mostly-completed new eastern concourse to let morning commuters out to Seventh Avenue. And it's NICE!
They had to cut away parts of the old Penn taxi ramp (as did LIRR 10 years ago) to remove the 12-foot depth I-beams. They've created a mid-level that's below the main floor but higher than the intermediate level concourse. And the marble (beige w/brown bands) is consistent with the mid-level remodel finished a year or two ago. There are artworks incised into the stone (including lyrics from The Drifters' "Under the Boardwalk" !) and overall it is a huge, huge addition to the station.
NOW ... is Amtrak planning to do anything about the horrendous Seventh Avenue entrance?
I need some help to understand this very important question. I understand that they are responsible for all the customers on the train. And yes, they do work long hours. But during the winter they are in heated cabs, during the summer, that a/c feels nice. They may get asked 1000 stupid questions an hour but thats really it. The TA really takes care of them, thier crew rooms are beautiful. The rooms have full kichens, showers, soda and candy machines, and big comfertable couches. The Stillwell Ave. crew room has two pool tables. Lets not forget the TV and VCR. Yes people, this were the money you use to buy Metrocards really goes. To pamper the motorman!
Now Track quarters on the other hand are nasty. First of all some quarters you have to walk the tracks just to get to. The lockers that we have are all hand-me-downs. Were are only allowed TA approved benches which piece of wood with legs. We are lucky enough to have a refrigorator but no microwave to heat the food, go figure.
We work in bad conditions. The winter is not that bad, but in the summer, it reach over 100 degrees in those tunnels and God forbid you work in a tube NO AIR JUST STEEL DUST! I am a Track Inspector. I walk up to 5 miles a night. I love walking into a curve and train goes right pass my flagger and I have to dive out of the way. Walking a tube is the best. I set up the proper flagging and those motorman still fly through. Thank God for the breeze. That gives us enough time to clear up. But when the train passes it sucks you off the bench wall.
I am not hear to whine, nor am I jealous of motorman. I like motorman they let me use thier microwave to heat up my food, sometimes. I just wish we got a little respect. As a writer for Newsday once put it, "Trackworkers are the grunts of the system."
Now Track quarters on the other hand are nasty. First of all some quarters you have to walk the tracks just to get to. The lockers that we have are all hand-me-downs.
Where is your union in all this?
I think the reason track people don't get respect is because they haven't gone out of their way to create an image. Let's think about airline pilots. Prior to deregulation, they were supposed to be like the coolest people ever (esp. amongst the female customers) and they pull in some ridiculous amount of wages. Then deregulations happened, all the "cowboys" got into the business, several planes were crashed (remember ValuJet?) and even Delta pilots began to feel the pressure and had to forego some of the benefits they had under regulated environment.
So if you want people to recognize what track workers do (I already do, but that's because I know the business), you need to lobby the unions to go out and create a public image. Track workers need to be visible, and it needs to become a profession. Creating a professional image isn't always easy. For example, you would probably have to submit to having a clean uniform at the beginning of the day, have to wear hi-viz without greasy stains, and refrain from yelling or swearing in public (like *some* but not all track workers do). You also have to know the routes and if a customer happens to ask you about line clousures you should be able to direct them to the diverted train and not just refer them to the MTA ticket window.
I think the problem with the track work job description as it stands today is that it is perceived as too replacable. Of course, it takes years of experience to spot cracks in the track and when renewals is needed, but Joe Public doesn't know that. Joe Public thinks that track workers are just cheap unskilled labor who happen to carry spike hammers. If you can change that image, then you can command more benefits and higher wages. But the public will only accept that if there is a professional track worker image.
It's ridiculous how much the public can judge people by appearances. Less so in North America than in other places, but it is still true here. How many times have you heard suburbanite kids tell you that their dad is a lawyer and a partner in such and such a firm, or that their cousin is at Yale studying pre-Med? These people need a reality check. Unfortunately many people in this society is like that, and since we live in a democracy, we have to respect their opinions...
Well said...
And not to denigrate those who make sure that trains stay *ON* the rails, but you see the same thing with DOT crews on the highways as well. "Coffee testing instead of working," "standing there doing nothing," "our tax dollars at rest," "why don't we do it to the road" ... folks that make sure that the infrastructure is maintained and safe are invisible to the public. UNLESS of course, they're waiting for another load of hard work to arrive ... then of course, they're "lazy" ...
Folks who work in most government titles are treated like they're on welfare by the public. Anyone who does physical work is looked down upon by our NASDAQ society ... and we wonder why everything we buy is made in China these days. Hard work is looked down upon and it's a damned shame. If it wasn't for CI Peter pointing out the realities and the importance of what his guys do, car inspectors ALSO got treated like crap by the public as well.
Track workers need to be more visible, to share with us and the public the realities and the stories of day to day life. CI Peter's brought it home to many of us - looks like his isn't the only unappreciated task ... and as a former motorman, I didn't think much about it either ... until TODAY.
Back in my days of theatre-service, I used to scream up to a movie theatre in my truck because something had broken down that the Projectionist couldn't fix.
Walking up the aisle with my tool bag, instead of people being happy that a technician was on site, people used to whine and complain!
It's some inherent fallacy of human nature. People never remember when good things happen, like when their movie runs to the end, or their subway train stays on the track. They only remember the bad things.
I always wanted to say ala Cartman: "screw you guys, I'm going home."
Heh. Same thing in the TV broadcast game. Folks at the station were constantly whining about "the engineers" sitting on their arses all days "watching TV" and "doing nothing." It all fell strangely silent when the transmitter went to white noise though and came back a minute later and the show went back on. The quiet only lasted a few minutes though. :)
We did bring it to our union and lost more than we wanted. The TA is funny about certain things, if you ask for something they want to find every way not to give it to you.
We are supposed to have a general pick every year. The last pick lasted almost two years because we fought over two things, the condition of our quarters and over the title of track inspector.
When we said our quarters were bad the TA sent in ispectors to see how bad the quartes were. We try to make these as comfertable as possible. Some people bring in foldable lawn chairs that go in your locker when your not using it, we also had a microwave and refrigorator. The TA said this took up to much space because they said with out these items you could fit more people. Each person is supposed to have so much square footage. I wish I knew what this square footage was but they said the chairs and appliences had to go. We only got to keep the refrigorator because some people were dieabetics and needed a place to keep thier insulen. So now with these items gone a room that fit 9 comfertably the TA said you now could fit 5 more people. Which makes for a tighter fit. Insult to Injury!
As for the track inspector title, the TA wants to take it away from the union members because they want managment to have the responsibility.
We did fight for better quarters and as you can see we lost!
Let's think about airline pilots. Prior to deregulation, they were supposed to be like the coolest people ever (esp. amongst the female customers) and they pull in some ridiculous amount of wages. Then deregulations happened, all the "cowboys" got into the business, several planes were crashed (remember ValuJet?) and even Delta pilots began to feel the pressure and had to forego some of the benefits they had under regulated environment.
That's rediculous. There are no pilot "cowboys". The type of filters and weed-outs potential pilots have to go through will make you wonder how anybody could do it. If you even have ONE speeding ticket (with a car) in your ENTIRE life, you just screwed all your chances of ever becoming a pilot. If you want to read everything they go through look here
Also, the Valujet crash was because of a defective oxygen canister, not the airline's nor the pilot's fault.
Also, the Valujet crash was because of a defective oxygen canister, not the airline's nor the pilot's fault.
The said oxygen canister was loaded by a SabreTech non-union, lower-wage, "cowboy" worker who was employed on a temporary basis.
The non-union, lower-wage pilot who has less flying experience than many in the traditional airlines (and paid only just over half as much), failed to question the writing on the airwaybill which read "Oxygen Cannisters -- Empty". The airline in question, as a passenger airline, was not authorized to carry oxygen generators, whether empty or full.
The NTSB report is available from the NTSB website at http://www.ntsb.gov/.
As for the screening process for airline pilots, if you've ever flown in the commercial airline world you would know that there are two kinds of pilots -- cowboys, and non-cowboys. They are paid different, they work differently, and they are just different species. Many of them find private pilots to be a third breed who don't seem to understand the work they do...
AEM7
Last year the TWU joined a rally to "Free Mummia ". Perhaps I could understand that if Mummia was a TWU member and payed dues. This year the TWU protests against sweat shops in the garment industry. Perhaps next year the TWU will get everyone to join in a protest over Transit worker's facilities. If not next year, perhaps the year after that. Need more be said?
The Chief Gandy Dancer at a local museum many times does track work while operations are going on. He is good at putting on a show (the car has to wait while he spikes that last one in) ... hint hint.
Many customers have seen him & a few friends (like me, Lou form Brooklyn & BMTman) doing our stuff. They and the operators may have come away with a greater respect for the work being done, AFTER they get over being annoyed with the delay < G >
Mr rt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>But during the winter they are in heated cabs, during the summer, that a/c feels nice.
Not quite. Most of the cabs are quite chilly during the winter due to the air rushing through uninsulated areas. If you do not have any duct tape and/or newspaper to stuff into the chilly areas, then you'll freeze. And with half of the equipment, the a/c vents during the summer are clogged up or do not work otherwise. It may be nice & cool now for the passengers, but the T/O might be sweating up a storm.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The TA really takes care of them, thier crew rooms are beautiful. The rooms have full kichens, showers, soda and candy machines, and big comfertable couches.
Maybe one or two crew rooms have couches, kitchens and showers, but believe me, that is the exception. Some locations have vending machines and some others bring in cakes, cookies, sodas, etc. and work on the honor system.
The Stillwell Ave. crew room has two pool tables. Lets not forget the TV and VCR. Yes people, this were the money you use to buy Metrocards really goes. To pamper the motorman!
Ahem! The pool tables and TV were purchased by the Motormen & Conductors that use the Stillwell Crew Room via a collection. T/O's and C/R's would pony up $5 or $10 each to pay for them. As far as the pool tables go, every 6 months the felt starts falling apart and the house cue sticks start breaking so they need to be replaced. Guess how they're replaced? Right! The T/O's and C/R's pony up the funds to fix them.
The items that are purchased for the crews are the VCR (yes movies are watched, but they were purchased to show TA safety videos. Anytime a TA video needs to be shown, the movies go off), and the refridgerators. Microwaves must also be purchased by the crews via the collection route.
I'm not going to deny that Trackworkers perform their duties in rough conditions, but believe us that we don't have the TA world at our feet. And as far as T/O's rushing by you, at least you don't have to worry about me. I always pass all 10 cars by at 10 mph. Just make sure that you put the flashing yellow strobe light further up the tracks instead of 50 feet away from you like some of your fellow workers :)
"Yes people, this were the money you use to buy Metrocards really goes. To pamper the motorman!"
Yes, the motorman should buy his own pampers.
I definitely agree with flasher. The correct distance is 150ft.
As for the pool tables, at least you are allowed to have them. The closest thing we have is a dart board. Thats the only thing that fits in a locker.
A BIG thank you for passing a the right speed.
Tim, those pool tables, microwaves, ping-pong tables (at Jam. Ctr.), etc. are for all NYCTA employees to use and not just for RTO. Cleaners & RCI's also frequently play on the tables. If you're ever there (and you have some free time of course), then use them.
Just be careful out there on the tracks.
I would love to pay a visit to Jam. Ctr. but its a little out of my way. I currently inspect the Crosstown "G", I have from Classon to Van Alst. Its not far from Jam. but after walking 5 miles, a little bench time never hurt. If I am ever out there I will keep that in mind. I like ping pong. I think we have a track gang out there.
They are Ping pong and pool tables at Jam!! We don't have any of that in the A Div. All we have are lunch tables, TV, and ofcause the Microwave.
The only place I who where you can play pool is if you go to the Bus Operator quarters at Corona Yard.
No pool tables at Jam. Ctr., only ping-pong. The only location in the B div. with pool tables is Stillwell.
Hey whats goin on guys. Im back.
Anyway, rode a R-38 on Teusday, and they really arent that bad. Took the C uptown. They ride very nicely, I guess after rebuilding they fixed alot of the issues. Even though these cars a re smialr to the redbirds (LAHT)....they ride much better with out the intense jerking.
I noticed a couple of things. Right by the end of the car, motorman side, the straphanger handle is a stright bar then just makes a roller coaster drop and connects to the end. I found this weird and I think its the only one like it in the system (R-38's) Can anyone elaborate? And they were made before I was born, how did they ride before rebuilding?
Another thing, my favorite car is the R-32's.....but after rebuilding, the R-38s are just much more attactive from the front, wih the casing of the digital sign, plus the NYC transit logo.
Much better "railfan" ride than the R-68 N train I caught!
Chris
Allow me to put one claim to rest: that Redbirds have "intense jerking." Sure, some of them do, particularly on the 7. But the R-33's on the 2 and 5, for instance, were overhauled after the 7's cars and seem to have been better maintained since, and their ride is just fine.
As for the topic of your post, who or what gave you the idea that the R-38's didn't ride well? Except for the rust problem on the roofs, they seem to be pretty nice cars. They're attractive inside and out, much moreso than the R-32's. Short people like me really like the way the handrails swoop down by the doors so we can reach them. (We like the old Redbird-style straps even more.)
Short people like me really like the way the handrails swoop down by the doors so we can reach them. (We like the old Redbird-style straps even more.)
And tall people like me bump their heads unless they duck standing in the doorways.......but I like them anyway........
I know that the M Line will be getting some R -143's once the L Line receives all their cars but if weekend OPTO is to be implemented on the M Line weekends as of September and the R 143's are not in as yet what are they going to use
Thank You
You can bet your reverse key that on 09/08/02, R143's will be assigned to the Mary. They will be in use.
9/8/02 is quite a ways away, there's plenty of time for the R143's to arrive for the M. When the shuttle is running, they only need about three trainsets anyway.
When you say three trainsets, do you mean trainsets which are technically 4 cars (and the length of an OPTO train) or an 8 car train?
Sorry, I mean full eight car trains, I phrased it wrong......3 full trains...6 trainsets.......
Well actually I guess I do mean 3 trainsets if you have only 4 car trains running on the shuttle (I didn't realize the OPTO would make the 4 cars as the shuttle is 8 cars now) Well in that case it's even easier.....you only need a train and a half to run the M shuttle on the weekends. (I believe there are only three trains that use the shuttle now on the weekends, correct me if I'm wrong. One at Metro, one at Myrtle, and one in the middle. Before the one in the middle gets to either terminal, the one in the terminal is on it's way.
An OPTO train can not be longer than 300 feet.
"An OPTO train can not be longer than 300 feet."
Who says so!?
And what is to stop they from saying something different if it suits them.
Elias
This was the limet set by the I think the City Safty Baord(Or something like that), back when the IND thought about have train longer then 600ft. They said that a C/R can only handle no mre the 300ft in each direction safely. So a OPTO can only be half the left of a full size train, or in the case of the M, it would be 240ft.
Robert
Exactly. These trainsets are certain to be held over for weekday Mary service.
If they aren't there... couldn't they "borrow" from the L and give the L some 40Ms and 42s?
The point is they WILL be there. R40 Mods and R42's are going to Coney as the 143's come in.
They don't need to borrow any R40's or R42's for the L....Aren't they already there? Instead of giving one or two R143's to the L , all they have to do is send it right to the M. The L doesn't need to be 100% R143 before the M gets one.
They can always move R143s off the L if they have to...
They WILL have them in use by Sept. 8th.
If for some far-fetched reason they're not, then they'll still use the R40/42 equipment and Extra List C/R's will work the M line.
Yes, they can just transfer them over Friday night and send them back early Monday. Besides every single 143 does not have to go to the L before the M gets a taste.
Dose anyone know if the R143 training for T/O shows how to uses the Door controls. I know from OPTO training how to do it, but the only other train the have a Shuttle switch to keep the door open when at the termals are the R62 that run on the Time Sqaure Shuttle and the R68 on the Frankle Shuttle. I know that the R142 and R143 have them to, but do thay work the same way as the other. I was thinking about pick over to the East next pick, so I might be on the M over the weekend. Anyone knows
Robert
Door training is included for T/O's in R143 qualification classes. That's what I've been told by other T/O's that have gone through the classes.
I've been told that the shuttle switch on the R143 is equivalent to the R62/68 switches.
To confirm Zman, I TSS that took the training said door training was done for all T/O's and TSS on R143.
When he was going through, they ran out of keys and the TSS' didn't get any. Wonder if they got more yet.
I doubt that will happen; someone would have to swap 24(?) strip maps at the beginning and end of each weekend. It would be easier to just have two R-143 trains assigned to the M around the clock.
BTW, in the Manhattan section, will the R-143 announce itself as a "Brooklyn-bound M train" in both directions? For that matter, what do human C/R's announce now? The C/R on the M I rode from DeKalb to Canal yesterday announced, "This is an M train going over the Williamsburg Bridge"; I guess that sums it up, but I can't see the R-143 saying that.
When the M train goes to Metropolitan it is actually "Queens-bound" even though it passes through Brooklyn along the way on Broadway (and Myrtle). So, I guess a Bay Pkwy/9th Ave bound M train is Brooklyn bound and a Metro-bound M train is Queens-bound.
Standard procedure is to announce the next borough the train's going to enter, unless it's there already. So a downtown A train at Broadway-Nassau is Brooklyn-bound, but at High it's Queens-bound. That's how R-142's handle it and I think that's how live C/R's are supposed to handle it as well.
Of course, what I always dreamed of was them bringing over R-44, 46 or 68 units to fill in if the 143's were unavailable. They could also do a test of OPTO service like they did on the 5 long before it acutally began.
The cars should have no problem between Myrtle and Metropolitan cnd could be brought over during a single track G.O., or at the beginning of a weekend shutdown, etc. The problem is you wouldn't be able to use them during the weekdays when all the service goes through.
Ok, I have to get from SI to Kings Hwy on the Q by noon on Sunday.
So here are some options I have, and want opinions as to which I should do
1) Bus to Ferry -> Ferry to South Ferry -> R to Pacific -> Shuttle Bus to Prospect Park -> Shuttle to Kings Hwy
2) same as 1 but R to 9th St -> F to Kings Hway and walk
3) Bus to S53 -> S53 to Bay Ridge -> B64 to Coney Island -> Shuttle to Kings Hway
4) Same as 3 but B64 to B82 that runs along Kings Hwy.
As I'm writing this, I may consider my friend's offer to pick me up and drive there. I think paying the toll for him is worth not going through this headache
Well here you go:
1) No, too much stair climbing and too slow to be worth it.
2) It depends on where EXACTLY you have to go, it is 16 blocks from the F to the Q. Still not worth it, especially the climb at 9th St from below to above ground.
3) No: too far out of the way.
4) Yes, you're best bet. You don't really go out of the way at all.
bus to ferry? which bus is that? if your close to Hylan Blvd past Richmond Ave going to St.George,just take the S79 to Bay Ridge and take the R at 86th st.the Ferry is every half hour after 10AM so its every hour before that i believe plus its a 25min trip from St.George to South Ferry.
Ferry is every hour until 11 AM.
Also, I'm on the north shore, not near the 79.
Thanks for comment though
Where on the North Shore? The S53 runs down Broadway to Clove Rd and eventually over the bridge to 86 St on the R.
Bus --> Ferry --> 4 southbound to Franklin Ave -->Franklin Shuttle to Prospect Park --> southbound Q shuttle.
Yes the shuttle will be running double ended and all three trainsets will be in service during the day.
I doubt they will use the computer to dispatch it, stuff like that cause it to crash.
The 4 is single-tracking between Bowling Green and Borough Hall, so headways are bound to be high. It might be worth walking the extra few blocks to the 1/2 at Wall and taking that to Franklin.
I've been reading with interest the threads focusing on a particular museum. Keep in mind that there are over 100 railroad and trolley museums in North America. Each is in a different stage of its growth. The degree to which a museum currently achieves the following outputs, and the degree it wishes to achieve them in the future, varies:
visitor experience
educational programs
community outreach
collection stewardship
The tools to produce these outputs include:
governance
mission statement
master plan
collection policy
development plan
Then there is the Board, staff and volunteers doing the work, with the donors, members, endowments and other sources of income to fund it.
The museum community as a whole continues to mature. Dissemination of accepted museum practices is improving. Several museums are achieving a high standard for others to follow. However, that leaves many museums at other places in the spectrum. Use constructive criticism to help improve the goals or tools a museum has. Also, nothing happens without funds. If you can't donate $$, can you think of other ideas the museum can pursue to raise money?
Hi, this is my first post and I'm assuming that this has been discussed many many times before, so forgive me for being naive.
Nevertheless, I'm interested in making an attempt in traveling the entire system and just wanted to get some feedback from the experts out there.
First of all, how would one go about documenting doing this? It's quite a time-conusming task and I'm doubting that anyone would videotape the entire ordeal.
Second of all, is there anyone interested in doing this with me? lol.
Third, the record probably won't count until the 1 line reopens to South Ferry in the fall, correct?
I have the entire thing mapped out. the only thing I have left to do is check line schedules again so I'm catching the right trains at the right times. Anyway, any feedback would be great, and if this topic annoys the hell out of everyone, I apologize in advance.
Thanks!
Dave
Dave,
Touch base with Harry Beck. He recently spent 36 hours doing the system (not to break a record but for a school project). As a result he has been on radio and television.
You can check his site www.nycrail.com, then click "About me" and you can hear the radio interviews or read the NY Times article.
You can send him an email from there to get his advice.
Note: Harry's site and Dave's site (here) are not in competition with each other but rather compliment each other. Both of these guys do a fantastic job.
I wish you luck in your mission to travel the entire New York City subway system. I don't think that the South Ferry branch on the IRT (#1) will be operational until this coming October or November. You can also check Harry Beck's site at http://www.nycrail.com/ for information regarding traveling the entire system. Harry Beck did it this past March if I'm not mistaken.
#3 West End Jeff
You can't, the system is do f---ing slow these days you'll never come close. The best you can hope for is trying to do it w/ non-subway transfers and possibly including PATH and/or the SIRR to set a NEW record. I would also wait until South Ferry opens.
How about waiting till '04 when four-track service returns on the Manhattan Bridge?
Also, don't forget about AirTrain. I wonder how long it would take to ride the entire NYC system in 2004, fully restored to function, including both PATH lines (WTC will reopen by then), and riding both AAirTrain loops (ie, get on AirTrain at Jamaica Station after getting off the E,J or Z), ride through the Airport, then get back on the subway at Howard Beach. Or vice-versa.
I have ridden on every line on the system, but I did this over a period of time, and not all at once. I even rode on the No. 8 train, the Myrtle, the Jamaica to 168th street, and on the Culver Shuttle.
I don't suppose I'll ever try for an all at once experience.
But there you have it.
Oh Yeah...
They dont sell hotdogs and other food down there any more (Why not concessionaires pay rent, don't they?) and the rest rooms (a we have seen here recently) aren't fit to crap in.
So bring a big picnic basket and a change of Attends!
LOL Elias
I have ridden the entire system also (well the entire system at the time anyway), but not all at the same time. Actually, I did this back in the early 90's, and unfortunately that was the first and last time I rode some of the lines, like the now infamous Astoria line (enjoyed it quite a bit actually), and some of the Bronx els. Of course I was in college at the time, so I had more free time back then, although I would like to do some of the lines I only did once again on day.
I did it with a friend, which makes it more fun, and the goal was just to ride each line, not to do it in a set amount of time. I feel you could enjoy each line better because you start each line fresh, so it doesn't get boring. (After a few hours of riding I'd probably go nuts anyway)
>>> First of all, how would one go about documenting doing this? <<<
Take along a notebook and record the time, the station, the line, and possibly the car number of the lead motor each time you change trains.
>>> Third, the record probably won't count until the 1 line reopens to South Ferry in the fall, correct? <<<
There is no official record. Service is constantly changing. You really have to settle for what service is running at the time you take the trip. It is hard to say what "the record" is for that reason. This is the same reason there is no world record for marathon races. Each course and weather conditions vary so much.
>>> I have the entire thing mapped out. the only thing I have left to do is check line schedules again so I'm catching the right trains at the right times. <<<
That is probably the hardest part of the whole endeavor. Deciding what the itinerary should be, and at what time of the day and night you should travel. Example: be sure to take the #7 line between Main Street and Queensboro Plaza, when the express is running in the direction you are going.
Tom
http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-06-13/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-154150.asp
Small (but nice) pic of the new tunnel supports.
At this new "Grand Central" like station, I have heard that they also want to bring the LIRR to the WTC transit hub. How do they plan to bring the LIRR or Metro north down to the WTC site? Or is this station just to serve the subway and PATH?
There was talk of using the A train tunnel from Brooklyn. But as it was pointed out that 85' LIRR cars are too long for the curves in that tunnel the talk has dropped to a whisper.
At this point the station will be the subway and PATH.
At this point the station will be the subway and PATH.
Well, a whole bunch of subways (IRT 1/9 + PATH, IND A/C and E stub end, BMT N/R, IRT 4/5, IRT 2/3 and BMT J/M/Z).
But they still seem to want to figure a way to provide some kind of station shell for commuter rail. Gonna be a MAJOR challenge given that they have no idea what direction the rail will be coming from! (Could be NJT via west side from new Hudson tunnels, or LIRR from Brooklyn, or .... )
"(Could be NJT via west side from new Hudson tunnels, or LIRR from Brooklyn, or .... )"
...Or from the Montauk Branch, which is the best idea!
: ) Elias
Very imaginative. Why do you prefer the Montauk Branch to the Atlantic Branch as a means to get to downtown Manhattan?
"Why do you prefer the Montauk Branch to the Atlantic Branch as a means to get to downtown Manhattan? "
The first reason is the congestion of tunnels and other subway lines, both in downtown Brooklyn and in Lower Manhattan. You would have to do a major reconstruction of the Atlantic Avenue Branch in order to get it low enough to get under the existing lines in Brooklyn.
Second I wanted the station alignment to be an East - West Access in order to have through service with NJT. There is no suitable yard for NJT trains in Brooklyn, there is in Sunnyside.
Likewise any freight movements. What good is that part of Brooklyn to them? Will you move them across the Atlantic Line?
I believe that the LIRR tph to WTC will be much greater than to Flatbush Avenue, and I feel that the Lower Montauk would better handle the tph together with much higher speeds.
Construction on the oute I proposed inteupts no existing services. Could you imagine the GOHs needed to rebuild the Atlantic line to these specifications.
Access to airports *is* important: WTC to Newark and to LaGuardia is a very simple thing on this alignment: only a mile or so of new track need be constructed in Queens, almost all of it over existing highway ROW.
Elias
Im sure for another $3-4 billion they could extend the LIRR from Flatbush to Lower Manhattan by new Immersed tubes near the Brooklyn-Battery and Joralemon Tubes. In addition, at least 1 1/2 miles of tunnel would need to be built to bring the LIRR to the water in Brooklyn, and another several miles of track leading to the WTC Hub and layup tracks and stuff like that. Of course, everything would have to be very deep to get under all the existing infrastructure, and the Atlantic Av tunnel might pose a challenge to get around.
BD's tunnel is much too close to the surface to interfere with a new tunnel bringing the Atlantic Branch into Manhattan. The new tunnel would have to diverge from the existing line a mile or more east of Flatbush Terminal in order to get under all of the existing tunnels near Atlantic and Flatbush without creating too steep a grade.
> http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-06-13/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-154150.asp
You mean http://www.nydailynews.com/2002-06-13/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-154150.asp.
Can't you post HTML links?
- Lyle Goldman
No, I can't.
Here's how you do it. For example, to link to nycsubway.org, you'd type this:
<a href="http://www.nycsubway.org">www.nycsubway.org</a>
The result will be a link that looks like this:
www.nycsubway.org
Mark
Why did the escape sequences work for you? What did you do?
Apparently, he used uppercase escape sequences. That seems to work, but I don't know if all browsers accept is properly.
- Lyle Goldman
<Q> = <Q>
<Q> =
Please correct me if I am mistaken....
In the Fall of 2001, there was a lot of talk and speculation about negotiations between the MTA and the Port Authority of New York/New Jersey on the transfer of the PATH train service to the MTA. Television, Radio and newspaper articles had commented that there were negotions in the works that would have the NYC Trasit System, (Subways),consolidated with the PATH system in New York at 33rd Street and also in lower Manhattan.
Rumor had it that NYC Subway commuters would gain access into New Jersey on MTA trains while New Jersey commuters could have access to NYC without having to change trains or pay an additonal fare.
Does anyone know what happend to these talks and negotiations? Was this proposal just idle talk, rumor and speculation? Are these plans seriously being considered now that a major trasportation hub is envisioned for lower Manhattan? Any Comments????
"In the Fall of 2001, there was a lot of talk and speculation about negotiations between the MTA and the Port Authority of New York/New Jersey on the transfer of the PATH train service to the MTA."
I don't recall hearing any serious proposals to put both systems within the same fare control. My reading of the downtown consolidation has always been proposals for better and more convenient passageways, and nothing more.
There is serious consideration of having PATH accept Metrocards.
PATH would have its own fare control, as it does now, and the money would be collected by PA not MTA, but the Quick-Card machines would be replaced by MetroCard compatible fare gates. You could use your Metrocard anywhere on PATH or the NYC subway.
The award-winning handbuilt O-gauge R-1/9 of Robert Rubalsky (sp?) is featured in this month's (July issue) on page 56 in the 'Trackside Photos' section.
His model came in 1st Place at the NYC Model Transit Show of two weekends ago...
Looks great! Makes me want to install an El !
Well, Dave....I say: TO EL WITH IT!
Get going and build it and I'll come by with my R-32's to test out your track-laying skills...
...and test the signalling system... LOL! ;-D
Someday when I build my "big downtown terminal" I think it'll have an El stop upstairs. But don't hold your breath, Doug, I just spent 10 months building one interlocking.
The Date: Wednesday, June 12, 2002
The Time: 1630 hours
The Place: Union Turnpike Station, fare control area N336
The Action: A young woman is SMOKING while using a Metrocard Vending Machine. A cop is standing not 20 feet away, seemingly whistling Dixie to herself. I point out to the cop that the young woman is smoking in the station. The response: "It's okay - she's outside the paid area."
- - - - -
My understanding has been that smoking was banned within the entire station envelope, rather than only the paid area. Was I mistaken? Has Transit changed the rules? Was that cop simply clueless (or lazy)?
Why did you point out to the cop that she was smoking??
"Why did you point out to the cop that she was smoking?? "
yeah, why??
Perhaps it was because the woman was smoking within the confines of a New York City subway station, in violation of Part 1050 of the New York Code of Rules and Regulations, and "Gotham Bus Co." believed the Police Officer was not aware that the woman was smoking and sought to have the Police Officer take remedial action as required by virtue of the Police Officer's being employed as a Police Officer.
David
Heh, they'll bother a person taking a picture of a MVM (for those who remember the article), but not someone smoking.
...You make it sound like a crime.
It is a violation of the New York Code of Rules & Regulations. Whether that is a crime, misdemeanor, etc., I'll leave up to the lawyers.
David
I guess it's just one of those things....
I never think to call the cops, unless it's a situation where armed police are appropriate, or needed.
A very similar situation...I live in an apartment complex with a swimming pool. Only residents or their guests are supposed to use it, and last Sunday a bunch of people who didn't live at our complex showed up and started swimming. Of course, my neighbors all went out of their minds because someone was breaking the "rules". I listened to them (my neighbors) talking, so of course they asked me what I thought. I told them, "So, go tell them to leave if it bothers you so much". They didn't want any of THAT, of course, and asked me if they should call the cops. I started laughing, and said "the COPS? are you CRAZY?" which made me neighbors VERY angry. I told them, if you call the cops, even the cops will get mad that you're bothering them on a call like that. Of course, they DID call the cops, and the cops told them that they (the cops) didn't know who lived there and who didn't live there and to complain to the apartment management. Now, you know that I laughed at my neighbors and even teased them about it a little, because I thought they were a bunch of dumb jerks for calling the cops over something so silly. If I were in the subway, and someone was smoking and it was bothering me, I'd move somewhere where the smoke wasn't bothering me, and go about my day without giving it another thought, because I wouldn't consider it important enough to think about.
I never think to call the cops, unless it's a situation where armed police are appropriate, or needed .... If I were in the subway, and someone was smoking and it was bothering me, I'd move somewhere where the smoke wasn't bothering me, and go about my day without giving it another thought, because I wouldn't consider it important enough to think about.
True enough. On the other hand, someone who's smoking on the subway, in blatant violation of the rules, quite possibly is the type who'd be liable to commit other, more serious, crimes.
Oh, so now A person smoking might have criminal tendencies. So I guess if you run a red light you might be homicidal? Give me a break. Were you the tattletale in school?
>>> Oh, so now A person smoking might have criminal tendencies <<<
You have put a twist on what was said. A person without respect for the law prohibiting smoking and without consideration of his fellow passengers, may very well be someone with less respect for other laws and the rights of his fellow citizens. Smoking is not a cause, but smoking where it is prohibited may be an indicator of anti social behavior.
Tom>
It is break down in quality of life. It starts with smoking and goes on from there. Remember the days of the horrors in the subway with the filth and the grafitti, etc.
I think the cop thought the young woman was cute. I've done this before -- hissed at males for smoking on MBTA property, not hissed at females. Well obviously I am not a transit cop so I don't have responsibility to hiss, but I don't see any reason why job-related responsibilities wouldn't be overridden by the equipment "down there".
AEM7
"I think the cop thought the young woman was cute. "
I think the cop was a female.
"A cop is standing not 20 feet away, seemingly whistling Dixie to herself."
Hey, Don't ask, don't tell.
Just cause the cop was female doesn't have to change the fact she thought the woman was cute.
There are women who like other women ... and I think it's a lot more common than some may think.
So report the time and his badge number to headquarters.
Elias
I can't tell you why the officer didn't act, but I can tell you that a friend of ours got a summons about a year ago as we approached the exit turnstyles at Stillwell. He thought that since we had left the platform area it was legal to smoke. The officer there had a different opinion.
officially once you set foot on the first step to the mezz or enter the door if the mezz ia at street level, smoking is prohibitted. However, in practice they may smoke if outside of the paid area, if they are away from the booth.
I may add, that a police officer can give tickets to those smoking anywhere on Transit proerty, including employees.
I might add that smoking is not allowed on open air platforms be they elevated, embankment, gradde level or open-cut.
Whoa, I saw a T/O smoking while operating once... according to what you said... that can't be good...
That's a violation of NYCT's internal rules and regulations governing its employees, in addition to a violation of Part 1050 of the New York Code of Rules & Regulations.
DAvid
And yet I've seen (and smelled) it numerous times. The R46 cars seem to be the most popular with smoking T/O's. The smoke smell permeates into the first car.
I remember many time I've observed Token Booth Clerks smoking in the subway. Like Graffiti it's a nuisance and shouldn't be allowed in the subway.
In there booths? They must be covered in Halon (or whatever you call the stuff in the fire extinguishers).
"They must be covered in Halon "
Halon is no longe approved in portable fire fighting units, and is certainly not appropriate for enclosed, occupied spaces. There is nothing so valuable in a token booth that you should not have a plain old ordinary water sprinker head.
Unless of course they are using some of that MTA water that we were speculating about in another thread.
Elias
What exeactly was Halon, other than a fire extinguisher? And why would it be used instead of Dry chemical or water? And how come you can't use it anymore?
Halon gas drives out oxygen, and thus puts out a fire. Of course, with out oxygen, you aren't going to do too well either. It used to be recommended for computer spaces because water or dry chemical would destroy computers. But computers are cheap enough now that they no longeR deserve special attention, and besides you do have adequate data back-up somewhere else. (Look how fast companies in the WTC had their data restored)
Halon systems are still used in record rooms and such, but an alarm sounds 30 seconds before release, and you are supposed to get out of there FAST (assuming you are still alive in there anyway).
And so it is for safety reasons that portable systems are no longer permitted. (Fixed systems have alarms, signs, training and other protections) It has been more than 50 years that carbon-tetrachloried fire extinguishers were outlawed. When I ran a building in NYC the insurance inspector had kittens when he discovered one of those things on our property. He demanded that it be gone isntantly.
Elias
Are "carbon-tetrachloried fire extinguishers" Halon extinguish?
No. Carbon Tetrachloride (old fashioned dry cleaning fluid) was used in extinguishers before I was born. Used to be on Navy Ships during WWII. The one I has was sealed in a glass ampule about the size of a quart and held in a wire cage on the ceiling. When a fire would melt a fuseable link on the cage, the ampule would fall and shatter, spilling the carbon tet on the fire, thus putting it out.
I have also seen fire departments using these things on chimney fires, just climb up to the top of the chimney, drop it in and the fire is out.
But carbon tetrachloride is a dangerous chemical, and even dry cleaning establishments are no longer permitted to use it.
Halon on the other hand is... well... Halon.
There are a few different kinds and it is as I have said, the kind in the portable extinguishers that is no longer available. We still have two such units in our print shop, left over from the time that computers were expensive, and when the maintenance company services them, they save the Halon (somehow) service the extinguisher, and then put it back in again. Were the unit to be discharged, it would have to be discarded, because new Halon for them cannot be obtained.
The Halon in a built in system (clearly this is what is built into the token booths) is different. I still do not like the idea of being in the booth after it has discharged, but I guess that beats opening the door to the thug who tried to burn you out. I whould check with the union, and see if we couldn't get an oxygen pack for you in there so that you could survive longer after the discharge. I think I would still prefer water to halon for this situation. The fact that there is electricity in the booth is different from it's being an electrical fire. First upon system discharge the electricity would automaticaly disconnect, and Second, *you* are not the one directing the water onto an electrical application, so you would not be in the path of an electrical arc. Water fire sprinklers are used in every commercial and many residential buildings all over the place. No Problem.
The amount of fuel that a perpetrator could get into the booth is rather limited, and water *will* put it out. I'd look into using "Light Water" invented by the Navy for fighting oil fires.
I'm sure that the city has checked all of this out with the Fire Department, the Health Department, and its own insurance companaies, and has found this system to be acceptable. Maybe they do know more than I do...
But...
Elias
Water is useful to cool the environment around a fire. While chemical fires and gasoline fires need to be put out with chemicals or CO2, water is often used as an adjunct to cool down surroundings and prevent spread.
On US Navy ships, when a fire occurs on board the first priority is using water to cool down ordnance so that the possibility of secondary explosions is reduced. Anyone familiar with the 1967 USS Forrestal disaster knows what I am referring to. A similar situation occurs with refineries, manufacturing plants etc.
Except for the filght deck (or hangar deck) which uses foam, or purple K extinguishers for small things, the Navy does use water for all of its fires, and they have been experimenting with "light water" that can float on top of oil, and with "slick water" that will fow through a two inch line as if it were a three inch line.
In boot camp we used water to put out oil fires. It's not prety, but it can be done.
Elias
Well if I worked in a token booth, and someone started pouring flammable liquid through the slot, I wouldn't be concerned about the safety of the fire extinguisher system - I'd be out the door as soon as I could get it open, and let the criminal have whatever he wants!
How selfish of you!!! At least get the money out of there safely, that's more important!
What more important? A human life or money.
He is probably safer in the booth than outside of it.
But he has to use his own judgement.
Elias
What more important? A human life or money.
Money, of course, as far as NYCT is concerned. It has been mentioned here that station agents are personally liable for any money lost to armed robbery. A station agent therefore has an incentive of sorts to resist a robbery even though doing so may put his or her life in jeopardy.
After a booth robbery, the people involved meet with the superintenant and discuss what happened. If the robbery could have been avoided the agent has to pay for it.
Halon saves lives as long as the user recognises is will deplete oxygen from the environment. The 'third worlders' want us to rid the world of this horrendous CFC gas while they 'slice and dice' eachother in the Name of God.....JIHAD. CI Peter
Including your throat no doubt.
It is such a little opening. There ought to be a metal plate taht can be dropped into place. A sandbag or a bomb of mace on the other side of the glass wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Not Possible, of course, but an idea.
Elias
We do have a deal tray which is a sliding bank drive up window type of setup which allows us to keep ther aperture closed. Most of us dont use iot because it is slower and the customers would complain.
As far as leaving the booth- if the fire is bad then the station woudl also catch fire. We are safer in the booth than outside of the booth. Attempted assualt (and yes- flammable liquids qualify as assualt attempt) or robbery attemp (her e too- flammable liquids qualify) merit top priority response. Our Halon system has automaitc and manual modes-- if the system is activated, they get an alarm at Jay Street which not only tells them it was activated but how it was activated.
Without giving details, once we had a clipboard with memos (we call them bulletins) fall to the floor of the booth causing a jar. The EBCS was tripped (not by us) and stations told us that the EBCS was activated and how it was activated (how it weas tripped.)
Intervale in the Bronx was used in class as an example of being safer in the booth. The S/A fled the booth and died in the fire that destroyed the station.
We are taught not to open the booth door- it coudl be a trick to rob the booth. Even for Lunch Reliefs, if we feel it is not safe we are not to open the door but call for police. They also showed us a video where a criminal used another employee as a measns to rob the booth. I have told peopel many times-- do not let me in if your safety is compromised as my life depends on you (the person in the booth) hitting the EBCS and a push in robbery will harm all employees.
I remind all employees- we are to report people lurking in stations and request police presence for reliefs and to pull our wheels if we feel unsafe.
Just finished two days of class to pass EPA Class 2 certificate for refrigerant handling. Personal experience with Halon fire supressents rates a 100 with me....CFCs R11 and R12 rate a 1 in ozone damage...R22 rates a 0.05...R134A rates a zero and Halon fire suppressants 1211 and 1305 rate a 10. When the system is evacuated, it is very unlikely that the Halon will be replaced thanks to the 'Third World/One World Government.' Far more ozone is lost due to swimming pools and Clorox bleach release of atmospheric chlorine but hey...I'm just a simple Car Inspector. Halon is not only heavier than air and smothers but reacts with the hydrogen molecules to supress the fire...problem is that Halon also smothers oxygen absorbtion. The Borg Collective is never affected. CI Peter
>>> But carbon tetrachloride is a dangerous chemical, and even dry cleaning establishments are no longer permitted to use it. <<<
The company I worked for in the early ‘60s had bottles of carbon tetrachloride which was used in a chemical developer. We technicians also used it as a cleaning solvent. One day management sent a strong memo saying all bottles of carbon tetrachloride were to be turned in and it must no longer be used. We were told it is absorbed into the body through the skin, even through rubber gloves, and attacks the liver. Also it is extremely volatile, so just standing near an open bottle provides exposure. It has a cumulative effect, like lead poisoning, so there is no safe level of exposure.
Tom
But carbon tetrachloride is a dangerous chemical, and even dry cleaning establishments are no longer permitted to use it.
I used to use the stuff to detect watermarks when classifying stamps for my collection... forty years ago we didn't think anything about it. Unfortunately, no one has come up with anything to replace it that is remotely affordable to the average collector. (Yes, there are substitutes, but they don't work nearly as well.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Carbon Tet used to be a hand pressurised fire suppressant in aircraft...problem is all these chemicals were safe about electronics but harmful to 'carbon based lifeforms.'
Water woudl not work. Water is only good for ordinary fires (paper, fabric, wood-- Class A Fires.) Water spreads burning liquids (gasoline, alochol, etc.--Class B Fires) and if the fire was electrical water would zap the perosn (Class C Fire).
Halon while it has concerns for the Ozone Layer due to CFCs (Chloro FLuoro Carbons) it does extinguish all classes of fires that could happen in a booth. CO2 would work but that removes owygen so we wouild suffocate-- a bad idea unless you want to get rid of us!
I am sure FDNY (Senior) can elaborate.
"Water woudl not work. Water is only good for ordinary fires (paper, fabric, wood-- Class A Fires.) Water spreads burning liquids (gasoline, alochol, etc.--Class B Fires) and if the fire was electrical water would zap the perosn (Class C Fire). "
Water would work fine. There are not significant quantities of class B materials in a token booth, and electrical wiring is also insignificant (as diferentiated from Electrical equipment or lines (Ie the third rail)). Water sprinklers are approved and appropriate in buildings, and the electrical services in a booth are no different forom these.
A water hose becomes inapropriate for energised electrical equipment beecause of the danger to the line handleer. Indeed firefighting lines are protected against electrical back up by the way it creates a spray of disconnected droplets. A sprinkler head will not be injured by an electrical back-current.
ABC portable extinguishers are also appropriate, but are more messy than water.
Elias
most booth fires are caused by some disturbed person pouring liquids into the aperture. Such happened at Northern Blvd the other week and at Kingston-hroop on the Fulton Street A. the Halon system has smoke and flame sensors and automatically trip the Halon. No electricity int he booth- I beg to differ:
we have lights, electric outlets, a radio scanner, bill counter, A/C, exhaust fan, baseboard heaters. some booths have elkctric coin counters, CCTV monitors, telephone and intercom boxes, gate control, eascalator stop buttons, elevator alarm buttons, etc. (of couirse not all items are in all booths.) We also have a computer in the booth whjich allwos us to make your farecard.
When the Halon is activated, automatically or manually all fans and A/C is stopped and an automatic alarm is sent to Jay Street who knows our system went off and help is sent immediately in the form of police and supervision. If we dont answer thw supervisor's phone call they also send EMS. FDNY is also called depending on the circumstances.
I have been in a booth where the Halon went off by accident (electric short). An experience! The booth fills with a fog and the Halon control panel alarm goes off and our EBCS is triggered. We are to stay in the booth and grab our extinguisher and have ti near the aperture. Of course the A/C and exhaust fans are cut off.
I have reviewed the MSDS for Halon and for the duration wre are there, it is no problem unless the person has respiratory problems. Some fr esh aiur after the S/A I gave lunch to returned from getting her fresh air cleared up my head in 30 seconds. A Station Service Booth (AKA Token Booth) is not air tight like a bank vault.
Halon is supposed to reduce the amount of Oxygen in a booth. Therefore puting out a fire.
Halon is not the safest gas to be breathing. When the tanks were first being installed in the booths, I has a supervisor who gave me a test on it. One was the test paper. The other was a bulletin with all the "correct" answers. One of the questions was about how safe the halon is. The Bulletin said the gas was safe to breathe. But the booth still had the original instructions that came with the tank. It said in essence that Halon gas WAS safe to breathe. BUT after 10 minutes after it has been used. It breaks down into toxic elements. Chances are no one would be in a booth for that long a time. Then again there are some people out there who didn't know a fresh cup of hot coffee contains hot water. Needless to say when I came back to work the next night, the instructions were gone.
Lets keep that out of this thread, please!
It is against the rules. A supervisor could see or smell him smoking and write him up. The rules prohibit smoking by employees in boths, trains, automobiles, offices. facillities, etc.
The rule states that smoking is prohibited on NYCTA property. While the unpaid mezzanine area is indeed TA property, the rule is not enforced until you enter the revenue (fare paid) area.
The officer didn't use special circumstances with this individual. In fact, the officer treated her in the same manner as everybody else.
As a smoker, I am aware of the smoking/no smoking rules...I have smoked countless times in subway stations, but OUTSIDE of the turnstiles...I even asked a transit cop once before lighting up, at the 28th Street station on the 6...he was just inside the turnstile, I was just outside of it, not 3 feet from him. I asked him if it was OK to smoke, he told me "As long as you're outside the turnstile, it's fine."
I don't understand why so many people smoke! It is disgusting, and it is extremely unhealthy for you and those around you. It is also a huge waste of money. It really should be illegal to smoke anywhere (although passing a law like that now would cause major chaos and is something I would not recommend.). I strongly recommend you quit smoking as soon as possible.
- Lyle Goldman
While I agree with you otherwise, smoking in the privacy of one's own home should NOT be banned. There is no reason why someone shouldn't have the right to ruin themselves as much as they want. Banning smoking would only extend the wasteful drug war to tobacco.
Recently some FBI agents were reassigned from the drug war to the war on terror. Not enough, all agents currently working on the drug war should be reassigned.
well put... with in a persons home, they should be able to do whatever they want.
Tell your local representitives so we can break them out of this political "need" to be hard on drugs.
That is the way the law is being enforced. The way it is written you can't smoke on TA property. That includes the stair case to and from stations be it elevated or subway.
If you bust the cops balls enough, he can write you a ticket but they won't.
You would think that the TA could cough (pun intended)up a few bucks for No Smoking signs and post them in all appropriate areas.
believe it or not, signs are already at the booths ("Rules of Conduct") and they are ignmored! Among the rules listed are:
No smoking, Littering, drinking alocholic beverages, radios, among others. A separate sign tells of fare policy and yet the people still push their tall children under,snoke, drink booze, etc.
Proof that no one read signs.
Sometimes I can't believe that most people can ever read.
Sometimes I can't believe that most people can even read.
One sign (which is usually not even noticed) is not a way to tell people the rules.
I ride PATH on a daily basis and they have the standard "No Smoking" sign posted in easy to see places.
If the TA would do this for many of the rules they might be suprised how many might get obeyed.
One would get the impression that the attitue of those existing signs is: "Oh, BTW - these are the rules, we hope you notice them and hope you will follow them"
One sign (which is usually not even noticed) is not a way to tell people the rules.
I ride PATH on a daily basis and they have the standard "No Smoking" sign posted in easy to see places.
If the TA would do this for many of the rules they might be suprised how many might get obeyed.
Better signage might help with respect to some rule violations, but not smoking. Anyone with a tenth of a brain can figure out that smoking's a no-no in stations.* As a result, smokers are knowingly violating the rules, and the biggest signs imaginable won't change the situation.
* = in underground stations, that it. Some people might honestly believe that it's okay to smoke on elevated platforms, and in those places better signage indeed might help curb violations.
No smoking, Littering, drinking alocholic beverages, radios, among others
I still wonder why the MTA allows drinking on the LIRR (and even sells it) and MN, but it's not allowed on the subway. I never even realized that until it was discussed a few months ago at TOSOTT message board.
You can make money selling liquor on the trains.
But really, where on (F) train are you going to put the bar car???
Of course they do have endless amounts of space on the mezinines, and they *could* rent out space to all sorts of establishments.
Hey.. the ta needs the income right. Whay they don't develop the realestate is beyond me!
Elias
Of course they do have endless amounts of space on the mezinines, and they *could* rent out space to all sorts of establishments.
Hey.. the ta needs the income right. Whay they don't develop the realestate is beyond me!
Up until even ten years ago there were all sorts of stores and snack bars in the subway. I remember at Jay St, about ten years ago there was a "hot dog and other food" area in the mezzanine. I bought hot dogs there sometimes or a soda. There was a florist at 8th Ave and 14th St up until about 5 or 6 years ago.
If you go back further to the 70's, when I was a kid, there seems to have been all kinds of stores and eating places throughout the system in the paid areas and mezzanines. Why did they do away with them? It seems like it would have been good for extra income.
Now there are hardly any stores, aside from newstands, in the subway anymore.
Anyone know of any concession stands (for hot dogs and the like) or stores still in the halls and mezzanines of the subway? What other stations had them years ago?
IIRC Lexington at 60th Street had a place that made fresh cake donuts. The machine kept making them all day long, and you could always get them hot.
I'd walk out of my way to enter the subway there.
Elias
Damn.....that's the kind of stuff I wish they still had! I getting hungry thinking about it! Why did they get rid of all those great food places in the subway?
Litter was a problem.
As was somebody trying to queeze onto a train with a cup of coke and a mustered hot dog.
Still, they *could* have sit down places with nice foods to eat.
And people would pay good money to open their shops where there was a steady flow.
Certainly pretzels and other dry finger foods ought not to have been a problem.
BRING BACK THE EATS! I'm Hungry!
Vermin?
And getting rid of the shops certainly hasn't solved that problem.
Certainly not in the Montague Street Tunnel ;-)
I think TA did away with most of the stores because of the amount of trash that they places generated. I don't mean the junk that is tied up and put into the proper trash cans. I'm talking about the litter that people drop and/or leave behind. Either at the counter or leading away from it. And some of the food that they served weren't that good. Warm ice cream cones. It was cream but it wasn't cold and the cones were stale. Coffee and tea made from TA water. Do I have to explain that? Meat patties that were warmed over and over and over. Hot dogs that did a double cooking.
Queens Plaza next stop says the C/R. The thought of Gyros pop into ones head, thinking they can get one on the platform and get back on the train...but not!
Perhaps this caused more door holding, as the Jerrys and Kramers tie up the trains! :-0
Coffee and tea made from TA water.
TA water? OOOOO-la-la, please elaborate. :)
Once I wanted something to drink. I figured a cup of tea was the best thing they had. After all, how can anyone screw up a cup of tea? Simple, bad water!
How bad is TA water? And where does it come from?
It comes from upstate like other city water, there is nothing TA about it. But obviously the pipes that bring it from the nearest water main were all rusted.
Okay, clearly understod. No argument here.
There used to be a hamburger stand on the 42nd St. mezzanine right next to the ramp leading to the Port Authority Bus Terminal which we used to frequent on Saturdays before catching our bus home. Never got sick from their burgers. They weren't rewarmed, either. The cook would put a fresh pattie on the grill after taking your order.
There's lots of stuff just outside fare control at 63rd drive. There's a florist in the mezzanine, and in the exit passage there's also a barber and until about a year ago a billiard hall (now it's a dance studio).
I think there's a card store or jewelry store or some sort of store next to the newsstand within fare control at 71/continental, but they have weird hours so I almost never see it when it's open.
Was there a food service store at 71-Continental back in the 80's? I vaguely remember buying a hot dog at some station, and It's driving me crazy...I can't remember where it was. I think it was there.
I know for a fact Jay St-Boro Hall had a food concession in the mezzanine back in the late 80's because I used that station when I went to college and remember buying food there sometimes.
There is nothing there now except a newsstand inside controls.
There was an eatery on the mezzanine above Eastern Pkwy on the J. It caught fire. A friend joked that a number of lives were saved because of the fire. One can watch the French Connection and watch the scene at Grand Central. Before they remodeled the station you could see the marks on the platform where the fast food stand was. What a great job they did to that station. It has been a while since I was transplanted from the A division. I would try to envision the scene from the movie in my head between my 41 trips on the Shuttle for the day. You still have the florist at 86 St. on the R. I miss all the stores and shops too. Gave the subway flavor.
A little off topic. One story I like to share that was told to me but I am not totally sure that this ever happened was with the old Coke machines on the platform. They removed all the vending machines before I was riding the trains. This is also why everything is bolted down. Some kids tied a cable around one of the Coke machines and then waited for a train. When the train came in, a kid then fastened the other end of the cable to the train and ran. As you can imagine, the machine was hauled off behind the train. Flying Coke.
I certainly remember the pop machines that they had in the subway.
They dispenced thier product in a paper cup with some ice in it for a dime. Come times you got a cup and syrup, but no water, sometimes you got pop put no cup, some times you got a cup with some water in it but no syrup. The combinations were endless, but what did your really want for your dime: to live forever?
Do you remember the penny gum machines mounted iside the pillars?
Elias
My parents, yes. For me, no. Born too late, '69.
Queensboro Plaza had the penny machines when I started going to High School in 1969. Either there was 2 pieces of Chicklets gum or a small piece of peanut brittle. They didn't last long. They were gone in 1970.
I do. Hit the coin return button on one once for kicks and a nickel or dime fell out.
Once upon a time we had a supervisor who would go down the row of telephones, looking for coins. We filled one of those slots with ballpoint pen ink.
Elias
Was he caught blue or black handed?
Rim shot!
LOL
BUSSSTEEED
Muuhahaha.
Short lived laugh. But hey I would like to have seen that:-;
You can find evidence of stations with stands at 71/CTL and Roosevelt. Old tiled floors.
Roosevelt still has platform leval vendors. Look at the one of the east ends of the platforms under the stairs. Also a couple months ago a in-station-but-not-in-fare-control opened up on the site of one that was closed in the east end of Parsons blvd.
Back in the 70's - I used to change at 59th St from the Lex to the Astoria Line to go home from school. Every day I used to buy a frozen custard cone at a concession stand on the IRT platform before going downstairs to take the BMT.
And no-one ever told you not to eat on the train ;-)
Those were the days....
Damn! Wish I were growing when the subways had a life to them!
Then those suburbanites get off the train after 5 beers and get into their cars! DWI?
Then those suburbanites get off the train after 5 beers and get into their cars! DWI?
An interesting thought....most people who ride the subway are probably "on foot" when they get off the train and go home. Most of the LIRR commuters take their car after getting off the train.......LIRR allows drinking...the subway doesn't.....is something backwards here?
I think that most LIRRs drink one, maybe two beers, those who as drink more probably don't have driver's licenses anyway. Maybe their mommies must meet them at the station. Dad always walked two miles from the LIRR station, but then, he never drank anyway. He liked the walk. He'd call mom when the train got to Merrick, and tell her what route he was going to walk, and she would walk out to meet him. That way they both got a two mile walk every afternoon.
Now for those who as wish to drink, it is ok that the RR milk them for $2.++ per glass, I just wish they served Orange Juice and English Muffins on the train on the morning runs.
Elias
I just wish they served Orange Juice and English Muffins on the train on the morning runs.
Actually it would be nice to have a donut/coffee cart on the train in the morning, sort of like they serve the beer in the evenings.
"Actually it would be nice to have a donut/coffee cart "
I SAID Juice and Muffins!
Gheesh!
Oh yeah, well it was early when I posted that and I was thinking coffee and donuts.........
I'am thinking Expananded Continental or American breakfasts
I just wish they served Orange Juice and English Muffins on the train on the morning runs.
Why are English Muffins called English Muffins? You can't get them in England...
"Why are English Muffins called English Muffins? You can't get them in England... "
Maybe you would call them "crumpets"
Did you expect to get French Fries in Paris?
Elias
Maybe a franchised McD's/Dunkin Dounts in each bar car (Oops LIRR doesn't have Bar CARS, only have Bar CARTS). Starbucks is a possability. There is a church with a Starbucks IN it; so if a christian produstent church can have a Starbucks so can a train. But MNRR already has dedicated bar cars that can be converted, while LIRR just has to ripp the seats out of some cars and install more power outlets (I know MTA Ms have a 110v bus in them). McDs stuff can be cooked and loaded onto the train in warmers with a forklift. While Dunkin Dounts should be easier to restock.
Years ago I was riding a BMT Standard looking out the railfan window when I smelled smoke coming from the motorman's cab - he cracked open his door and I could see - he was smoking a CIGAR!!
Was this before 1959?
Early 1960's
Here's the official rule, as of the opening of this particular IND station:
(Incidentally, the National Building Museum in Washington has this sign on display in its transit exhibit, dated to c. 1900. I filed a correction.)
What NYC Transit needs are some signs like that posted in their stations near the token booths.
Notice that that particular sign doesn't ban smoking on elevated structures. That's not much of a problem for a sign posted only in original IND stations, only two of which are elevated, but it wouldn't cut it nowadays.
I saw two of these at CP-ALBURTIS. They are evidently some sort of "General Railway Signal" brand "yard" switch machine, but the design simply facinated/baffled me. Has anyone ever seen one of these before? Why are they on that stand thing? How do they work? Do you know any other installations of them?
NOTE: This machine and another just like it are going to bite the dust in the umcomming NS signal "improvement".
A shot from the other angle would be helpful. That looks
like a model 2A semaphore signal from the back. Perhaps
it is an abandoned signal? My other theory would be a
remote switch lock. The style I am more familiar with goes
on the switch stand itself and takes the place of the hasp lock.
It appears from the picture that the lock rod extends out to
the mystery device, so perhaps this is indeed an electric lock.
There was, and maybe still is one, at Lansdale MU yard. The device unlocked the derail, allowed the switches to be aligned to the yard, and I was told turned the approach signal for trains approaching from Doylestown to "Stop".
To operate, the device is unlocked, and there is a lever that you switch that unlocks the switches. I helped lay-up MU trains at Lansdale yard in the late 1960's. No, this was not a paid position, well for money, it was one of pure enjoyment for me.
One of the crew needed to walk up to the unlock the switch machine (I can't recall the exact name it was referred to). The two leads into the MU yard at Lansdale I recall were controlled by this device. The device, when activated, served as an interlock to lower the derail and allow the other crew member to throw the hand throw switch aligning the track into the yard.
For the life of me I can't remember if the device had a name - everything around the railroad has a name. I remember the one at Lansdale was a little tricky. Sometimes you operated the lever half way, had to stop, and then operated it the rest of the way. The lever traveled on a 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock rotation.
When the train pulled into the yard, the switches were realigned for the Doylestown Branch, then you operated the device and the derail that protected the yard track went back into place. The last thing you operated was the lever to restore the signals, and locked upt the box.
If I recall correctly, there was one at Chestnut Hill (RDG) also.
I think it was equipment that the Reading Company was partial to. Why they had one at CP-Alburtis, I can't determine.
Jim K.
Chicago
Ah, Yes, A GRS Model 8 Electric Lock
So that is in no way a switch machine and the points are all hand operated. Can you explain the "stand" comfiguration.
I can scan you some GRS info from "THE ELEMENTS OF RAILWAY SIGNALING" (GRS, 1979) Friday afternoon. the train crew calls the operator to have the switch unlocked, then manually throws rhe stand. Read an EL Scranton Division timetable. somewhere it the Special Instructions is an explanation.
Hey, I don't wanna get into too much "controversial" topic here, but I read a very excellent book that every SubTalker needs to read, and it involves a domestic terrorist trying to target the subway.
The book is called The Cobra Event, by Richard Preston. It is about a biological terrorist living in Alphabet City, and about 75-100 pages of the novel just deal with the subway. I don't know how much truth there is in some of the details, but it is excellent, exciting reading for any railfan in NYC. I highly recommend it!
I just hope they don't make a movie out of it and give these guys ideas.
You really need to check this book out though, its excellent.
I don't want this board going down again.....I like the people on here, even though I don't personally know any of you, I and all of you share something very unique.
This message board means a lot to me....you can laugh at me when you read this, but this board and website is a very special joy for me, because I love the NYC subway system...always have, always will.
If this board goes, I will still love the subway, but a very special thing will have died.
Anthony Lener
I agree
Thank you....
Not really as long as all the people who use this site will go to the SAME other forum everything will be okay.
Building new el structures ought not to be a problem.
Well, the problem is when people think of els they think of your great grandfather's el, and naturally object to it. A modern el structure is nothing of the sort. Ir uses a single row of boles down the middle of the street, just build a nice grassy boulevard strip there and triffic won'e even notice that it is there. Its concrete forms sweeping upwards in a graceful Y shape, with two lines on top of it running in a trackway that is sound-proofed.
It is a more inexpensive way to bring transit to areas that need it.
Now for the older els.
Well the can be fixed up nicely, and even while they are running.
since you want to disturb neither rail nor road traffic as little as possible. The risers are treated with a sound deadening concrete, the lines are encased in such material, with sound deadening materials applied around the trackways.They won't look or sound like your grandfather's els but neither will they be as fast or as efficient as newer els.
You start at the proximal portal, and work your way to the distal destination. You do most of the work from the street level, since you are working on the structure rather than on the trackways. You are building a new soundproof structure right around the existing one. My only concern is water getting isnide of the new treatments and rusting out the older existing / weight bearing steel structure. It still needs some thought, but I think that it is doable.
Elais
But no matter what you do, New York wouldnt feel like New York without my grandfather's el running down New Utrecht Av or McDonald Av or Broadway.
>>> New York wouldnt feel like New York without my grandfather's el running down New Utrecht Av or McDonald Av or Broadway. <<<
or 3rd Avenue in Manhattan. (As Thomas Wolfe put it so well, You Can't Go Home Again)
Tom
If you're interested, Chicago "L".org has a section on the ongoing rebuild of the Douglas (Blue) line.
-- Ed Sachs
What I find interesting is that CTA can rebuild a station in a year's time. It takes MTA two years, usually to do the same (the current rebuild of the South Ferry/Greenwich Street IRT being a notable excweption).
Well what about 4 traks? This isn't some baby Washington DC or Boston. New york has it's trademark as having express lines! Also it isn't a good not to have express because then no one will use it. And all that money you spent on it you will waste. Express Busses will suck away most of the traffic, and the othere former means of transit. Still in some cases taking the QM-1/QM1-A is faster than going to manhatten by 5-14 minutes (when there is no traffic).
A new schedule for the LIRR Montauk Branch took effect May 20. About a week earlier I checked the mta website and the new timetable showed a truly interesting new run--a probable first for the railroad, at least in the modern era--an all-reserved Montauk train leaving Penn Station with the first stop at Westhampton! No change at Jamaica, in fact no stop at Jamaica. Fridays only.
Obviously intended to be a dual-mode, it would have left about 15 minutes before the Cannonball, whose dedicated electric connection leaves Penn on Fridays at 3:58 with a change to the diesel (originating Hunterspoint) at Jamaica.
A couple of days later, the train was gone from the website. It doesn't appear on the timetables currently being distributed.
I wonder why the railroad got cold feet. It isn't the first time a timetable was cancelled after it was published.
If they ever do run the train I have a name for it, the "William Jefferson Clinton" in honor of a man who also managd to spend lots of time in Manhattan and the Hamptons without setting foot on the rest of Long Island.
This sounds like the rumored Amfleet based LIRR train to the Hamptons(tm). IIRC, it was technical problems with the equipment that kept it from running this year. Someone spotted a test set on the LIRR a few weeks ago, though.
That may very well be. In the upcoming schedule, the Cannonball runs both Thursday and Friday. On Fridays, though, it takes 10 minutes longer to get to Montauk than it does on Thursday. This, presumably, is because the length of the train means that it has to stop at least twice at each station in order to let everyone off.
I guess the Amfleet train would have run 15 minutes ahead of the cannonball and allowed it to be a normal length train on Fridays.
CG
In the upcoming schedule, the Cannonball runs both Thursday and Friday. On Fridays, though, it takes 10 minutes longer to get to Montauk than it does on Thursday. This, presumably, is because the length of the train means that it has to stop at least twice at each station in order to let everyone off.
I would be most surprised if an LIRR train stopped twice at a station. There already are a number of stops on various trains where all cars can't be platformed, and the conductors announce that well in advance so people can get to the platforming cars.
It has been common practice for decades (probably back to Pennsy days) for certain LIRR trains running to the east end to make two station stops at certain stations. This is even more so since the high level platforms since they can't "push" an extra car or two at rural stations by letting people off on the gravel.
Most of the people who ride these east end trains are city folk, not commuters who are used to "the head two cars will not platform at...". Plus they often have significant luggage that they can't be expected to haul from car to car.
Good customer service...on a trip of that length 10 minutes more or less isn't as important as catering to the traveler's comfort.
If you have RR Video Productions (Trainsfans Inc.) video #101 "LIRR Hot Spots", it shows 1 very large trains with 14 cars twice. One day going west from Montauk, and the very same train going east the next day. The eastbound arrives at Southhampton where the conductor goes in front of the train and manually switches the train into the siding in order for the westbound to stay on the main. The westbound has to wait in the clear of the station until the eastbound disembarks its passengers. The eastbound has to stop twice (once to let off passengers and the other to wait for the westbound). So, when a train has to pass another, and in dark territory, it does have to stop twice. Now with the bi-levels and having a PA system, announcements can be made to which passengers can be told which cars stop, and where.
Thanks for posting that.
No problem, Ron!
They did that on an Amtrak train I was on at BWI. At BWI, the northbound platform is shorter than most trains. The train was about 9 cars long and the announced if the doors didn't open right away, not to panic and once the train moved up, they would open. This is the first time I had seen this at BWI and it caused quite a delay. I think we got to Philadelphia about 20 minutes late. This was the first (and hopefully) the last time I will see this happen, but since I normally take the Acela Express, I probably won't see it again. Such a delay on the AE would result in so many travel vouchers being issued, Amtrak would practically give every AE rider a free ride.
I believe they were supposed to get some Amtrak equipment for that train, but the Amtrak coaches were not compatable with the new LIRR engines...you know those "great" engines that have been nothing but a "dream"......
Over the decades there have been proposals at one time or another for premium service subway trains--you know, extra service for extra fares, though these schemes have always failed as impractical.
Fantasizing, it occurs to me that if a plush subway train was ever to run, it should have a name, just like the great railroad trains. I have a few proposals:
The Plush Q - should be the "John A. Lott" in honor of a prominent Flatbush booster, first president of the Brooklyn, Flatbush & Coney Island, whose name also graced the first Brighton locomotive.
The Plush F - should be the "Andrew Culver" for obvious reasons.
The Plush N - should be the "Coney Island Express" for the crack service of times gone by.
There are only two trainsets for the Franklin Shuttle, but I already have names for both -- the "Antonio Luciano" and the "Douglas Diamond," though I think those names should only be assigned for northbound runs, for safety reasons. :-)
So, which runs would you name for Mayor Hylan, or Mike Quill? :-)
-- Ed Sachs
One of the MTA's planning proposals is a "high amenity" subway running from Grand Central down to Lower Manhattan and out to Jamaica, so LIRR and MetroNorth riders could get downtown without riding the regular subway. If it is to be built, I suggest continuing it from Grand Central out to Secaucus Transfer, for NJT riders going to GCT as well.
The train could be called "The Snobway" or "The Great White Way."
Did you say that you have a new route for the Pheobe Snow?
In addition to the Subway Series taking place at Shea Stadium over the next three days, New York won't be the only city abuzz with transit fever. The BART (Athletics-Giants), EL (Cubs-White Sox), and Freeway (Dodgers-Angels) Series will all be going on too.
Any subtalkers going to Shea this weekend? I'll be there on Saturday as Roger takes the mound and goes to bat...GO YANKEES!!! :-) -Nick
I'll be there on Saturday as Roger takes the mound and goes to bat...
Enjoy the rainout :-) Or so the weather forecast would lead me to believe. (I'll be drowning in the Branford swamp myself.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They usually call the Oakland-SF Series 'The Battle of the Bay'.
-Hank
Have you been reading the Astoria El thread?
What do you think...not about the Astoria El, but the tone of the whole debate?
Sorry to say, no ... this place is a bit too busy lately to hit every thread and I've missed a number of them because I'm supposed to be working while I'm here. I saw it was getting a bit shouty and I've learned that when that happens, no point in replying or reading since it'll be headed to that bitbucket in the sky. I posted a set of pictures early this morning in response to a question about the local signals on a railway diamond along with links to maps of some abandoned trackage that would make a nice 6 mile run for a rapid transit museum and it appears to have vanished.
So no, I saw that as a doomed thread and I've avoided it.
This is irritating. I was interested in the history of CP-VO. Actually I thought that post on the diamond was pretty good, since it included current and previous pictures of the diamond after Jersey Mike asked what it looked like and whether the diamond was still there.
I am annoyed about this, Dave. It's your website, and I thought things has changed since the hiatus (I was surprised that you did not delete the sex-in-the-toilet thread). Obviously you are still babysitting this board as much as before, and what's more now transit-related threads are deleted every now and then. Maybe us Amtrak-people should take our discussion to some other board.
AEM7
Thankfully, the "sex in the toilet" thread was selectively deleted. It started getting out of hand. The subway related part of the thread is still there.
If that's the case, we'll soon find out if the "Voorheesville/Gonerail" part is germane or not and I'll know what the answer is for sure. It's as close to a subway as it gets upstate.
Ack, it was MY fault. I should have expected that since I changed the title to something else from an existing thread instead of starting a whole new topic (laziness and not expecting that a changed title would go byebye too) that it would have been killed, that's happened to many of my posts before that WERE on topic. I should have remembered that.
Alas, since this site sends out CGI's and Netscape won't cache them, I don't have a copy of anything that I had posted on this end and unfortunately since I'm busy trying to write code for a new product version that's WAY overdue, don't have time to go back and find all I had found for that post.
HOWEVER ... since I didn't NSClean my Netscape, the two links to the websites are still highlighted so here they are again:
http://www.trainweb.com/gcdra/davehonan/albany/conrail.html
and
http://www.cityusa.net/trainland/railfan/railfan-voorheesville.htm
But it's MY fault ... I shouldn't have posted to an existing thread and here I go doing it again because I don't have the time to go back and do that over again ... grab 'em while you can ...
My two pictures are on one of our corporate sites:
(above is one of my own pix)
(and so is the above)
I am annoyed about this, Dave. It's your website, and I thought things has changed since the hiatus (I was surprised that you did not delete the sex-in-the-toilet thread). Obviously you are still
Sorry, I know you all think I sit here 24 hours a day reading subtalk messages. An out of control thread will sometimes have to sit here for a few hours or even a day til I read it but in fact, I did delete that thread.
babysitting this board as much as before, and what's more now transit-related threads are deleted every now and then.
As you may have noticed if you change the subject of a thread you're not starting a new thread. I think I'll program it to do so however, keep in mind that once a thread gets out of control I refuse to waste my time hand picking the transit posts from the garbage. So please, if you want to change the topic of discussion in a thread, start a new thread.
Also I may accidentally delete a post or thread (it's happened once or twice before). To reinsert those messages into the database is more effort than it is worth, you'll just have to retype some things into a new thread.
Maybe us Amtrak-people should take our discussion to some other board.
Plenty of room for competition.
> you did not delete the sex-in-the-toilet thread
One other thing, why is it suddenly my fault for not deleting it instead of the collective YOUR fault for even posting it in the first place? Jees people do a little thinking first and you won't be so upset when you see your "work" get erased.
I say we frag the place from space, it's the only way to be sure.
-Hank
;-D
Dave, you're doing a great job. Don't let the kvetchers get you down.
Ditto from me, too. Everyone is asking a wee bit too much.
Chuck
"why is it suddenly my fault for not deleting it instead of the collective YOUR fault for even posting it in the first place?"
Because we sometimes are too busy yelling at each other hoping that you'll play big brother and intervene. Even though I expect someone to jump all over me for saying this, I am sorry for my part in the deleted thread.
Since we're on this path momentarily, might be a reason to step back for a second and count the DAYS since the "hiatus" ended. Subtalk tends to draw a larger crowd and MANY MANY "sidewalk superintendents." When we spin off topic here and reach for throats or kibbitz too much, we're doing a disservice to the masses who come here to LEARN something. As best as I've tried to fathom the theme here so as to not run afoul of it, this is a place for the more serious discussions and to have some fun too (though not too much since there's a camera in every corner of the safe house and this place almost qualifies for Neilsens) ... but folks come to nycsubway.org looking for hardcore data on the subways, and other railroads that toss carbon-based lifeforms into the grain hopper.
Uncle Harry's place (which many here holed up in the iron closet treading water) is one of my other haunts because Harry's a really cool guy and because of the plain old off-the-wall *HUMOR* of the place. For those who enjoy my kibbitzing here, don't need no conductor's gloves over there for my ramblings. And it was really neat how many of my current "in good standing" 100 brothers and sisters would have some good laughs.
I guess what I'm saying is there's a good place for everything and each of these various places has been themed as (more REALISTICALLY dragged kicking and screaming against "becoming") unique places with their own sensibilities. It's everyone's duty to learn where those fences are before the electric shocks are applied. :)
Harry's place is a great place to have fun and sometimes goof on the absurdities whereas this place seems to want to be a bit more serious. Where you don't have to wear a vest, but ya gotta play "spot the TSS"
every now and then. At least that's what I'm trying to feel out.
Harry's place is a great place to have fun and sometimes goof on the absurdities whereas this place seems to want to be a bit more serious...
The reason I don't go to Harry's place all that much is because the Amtrak-informed members of the Subtalk community don't go there. Over there, they have many great transit threads but fewer Amtrak threads. Unfortunately, I am an Amtrak fan who likes to laugh.
Well, all this will be over soon. I started a new job today. Soon I would be buried in work for me not to have time to read Subtalk, and hence won't be able to annoy people by trying to be funny...
AEM7
GEEZ, bro ... do you think the D train runs to Selkirk? :)
Here you have quantity ... and it's good. I love performing my own little sidewalk act anytime someone glances up from the sidewalk cracks and replies ... woohoo! Eye contact! Lids, lids, $20 ... umbrella $5 ... no coke, pepsi. But what most victims of the subway are into, I'm not. I was a childhood foamer who spent every waking moment in my puberty fantasizing the A train instead of a babe. :)
When I went through grade school, high school and some Fordham, I always wanted to drive the train. So much, I took a civil service test while still in DeWitt Clinton HS (guidance counselors, guilt) for conductor and actually GOT it a year afterward. WOO-fugging-HOO! Foamer, stain in pants. :)
Otherwise, I'd probably be as pyschotic as some other folks. Heh. Now railroad folks seriously frown upon "rapid transit types" (current and former employees of UTU, TWU, BLW, etc) because "subway motormen have regular hours and drive puthhhy multiple busses - REAL MEN move coal" ... bottom line, Amtrak is *MY* subway line and it's as important to me as the D train was when I lived at 204th and Webster ...
You may not get train orders at Uncle Harry's, but you could invite a few of your friends who're nervous letting their "hair down" on other sites and go for it ... the beauty of the place is that the threads are all in one CONTAINER and don't SPREAD accross others as easily as here. Harry's place is a nice place for a few folks into a particular thing to go hog wild without being insulted for their opinions. If there's no replies, ask any native American ... walking away is a vote also. :)
Ok what I am about to say isn't going to be popular in any sence. It is not Dave's fault if you're all acting like a bunch of dummy's. You all need to stop this madness. If you want to talk about sex in toilets and junk there are other sites for that. But this is suppose to be transit oriented, not a smut house. David is doing all he can to maintain this site's iuntegrity. So help him out and keep your sick thoughts to yourself. And if you want to talk about filth and junk take your crap out of here!
All of the name-calling and the threats were definitely uncalled for. I have been visiting nycsubway.org for almost six years now. I've learned a lot and when I first posted here I learned a lot of things about the NYC subway and other rail systems. I wouldn't have known about the IND Second System if I had never visited this site. All I knew about the Second Avenue subway was that it had been promised to us by our inept politicians for decades. But if I had never come here, that would have been the extent of my 2nd Avenue knowlege. I would never have known about the extra bullets or the old 1967 colors, if I never came to this website. And the tone was fairly pleasant, except for a few yokels who came and went quietly. Nobody threatened to beat each other up. People rarely went off about other people's political ideologies, and few people cared about them. There was very little insulting of people going on. I want to see that again. Trains were what mattered on Subtalk. And that's the way it should be.
Can we all do that? Can we stick to discussing rail without insulting or threatening each other? I think we can. And I hope we do.
Waaaaaaaah! And MY NAME is attached to the negativity too. I come here for fun and to provide some whenever possible. Really ... it's not my fault ... no really ... :)
Yesterday the Transit Museum opened a new exhibit at its GCT space. A most interesting history of the ELs in NYC. It runs through September 29th. Try to see it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Too bad they can't extend it a few more weeks into October. Oh well...
Keep your fingers crossed. They are well known for sudden extentions.
Peace,
ANDEE
Now, elevated lines and subway lines have their distinct advantages. For instance, Elevated Lines are way cheeper the build then Subway Lines, they can be built at a quicker pace, pre-assembled parts make putting together a snap, and modern day techniques makes it quieter when a train is going through. Subway Lines however are more expensive, and require alot more time to built. It is however a lot quieter, a lot faster, allows for better envornments, and finally it allows sunshine everywhere.
What is important is that both are good techniques. What must determine what is built is the surrounding communities and business. Do they want buisness to go there so badly, and the neighborhood to expand so rapidy that they would go with the elevated as the choice to get the people here quickly. If a community is patient and wants something thats "more efficent" and the cost is more. and the wait is longer then they would go with the Subway Line.
So if there was a small community, and the community wanted a subway line to come to the Community, and the MTA said, either Elevated or Subway. What would you choose?
I think it depends on how dense the area is. If space is at a premium, a subway will be built. Many cities have trains that run underground in the dense downtown, but above ground further out. Chicago is the most notable exception, for many historical reasons.
Mark
Chicago has very few miles of subway.
They are:
State Street (1943) from Armitage portal (2000 N) to 13th St portal (1300 S), later (1993) extended further south to join the Dan Ryan Line just north of Chinatown-Cermak (2200 S) - about 5 miles.
Milwaukee-Dearborn-Congress subway (1951) which runs from the portal at Paulina (1700 N) to the portal just east of Halsted - roughly 4.5 miles.
There is also a short subway on the Blue Line between Western and Addison - roughly 2 miles.
Othere than that, the entire system is either above ground or runs at grade.
Jim K.
Chicago
It's more a class and power issue than an efficacy one.
Second Avenue is a prime example of where a modern elevated would be more cost effective than a subway. Second Avenue is a broad avenue and digging a subway there, what with the utility relocation and all, is a physical and financial nightmare. But Manhattan has the power, so forget about elevated transportation.
OTOH, they had no problem building an elevated line over the Van Wyck, and grade separations on Long Island are routinely elevated, even through upper-middle class neighborhoods, even open cut or subway building is more feasible than in much of the city.
"They"? The "they" that built the Airtrain is a different "they" from the one that builds the subways. Besides, the Airtrain is much farther away from the nearest houses than any elevated would be in Manhattan.
"They"? The "they" that built the Airtrain is a different "they" from the one that builds the subways.
Doesn't matter who "they" is. If the PA built a second avenue el or the NYCTA built the Van Wyck AirTrain the impact would be the same.
Personally, I really like elevated lines. However, I don't feel they belong any more in Manhattan. A 2 Ave subway would be better than a new 2 Ave el. The 8th Ave and 6th Ave lines needed to replace the 6th and 9th Ave els. (However the 2 Ave subway should have been built before the 3rd Ave el was allowed to be dismantled.
I am glad however that there are many els still around at least in the other bouroughs. For example, if I was at Myrtle-Wyckoff, and I was going to Manhattan, I would much rather take the M train than the L train because the M is elevated.
In addition, as nice as the Fulton subway is, I feel it shouldn't have been built (I understand what was happening at the time it was built), however, I feel the money spent on it would have been more useful spent on a subway line in an area where there was none. A good part of the old Fulton el was rebuilt to dual Contracts standard. That subway line was a waste. BTW, what parts of the Fulton el was dual Contracts, besides the part that still exists at the end?
The other section of the Fulton St. El which was rebuilt at the time of the dual contracts was the section east of (but not including) Franklin Ave. station to the Atlantic Ave. junction. The line was rebuilt from 2 separated tracks with island platforms to three tracks with side platforms, much the same way as (and looking very much like) the Broadway line between Marcy Ave. and Eastern Parkway, except that there were no "express" stations (all stations from Nostrand Ave. to Rockaway Ave. had side platforms).
Actually, the Queens section over Liberty Ave., now used by the 'A' train, wasn't "rebuilt", it was built new at the time -- prior to the openining of the existing 3-track el section, the line terminated at City Line (Grant Ave.).
While the extension and rebuilding of part of the Fulton St. El was done at the time of the dual contracts, it was not funded as part of the dual contracts, so it wasn't really part that project.
-- Ed Sachs
Thanks, that's very interesting. So basically there was an unrebuilt section from the end to Franklin, a rebuilt portion from Franklin to Atlantic, and unrebuilt protion from Atlantic to Grant, and then the "new" section from Grant to Lefferts. Basically, I guess the BRT/BMT was planning to rebuild the whole line. It really is a shame they built the Fulton subway and destroyed the Fulton el. Again, as much as I like the Fulton subway, the money shoukld have been used elsewhere (in a perfect world....forgetting the point of the IND was to destroy the BMT).
Yes.The entire Fulton St. line was to have been rebuilt to heavier standards, and connected into the 4th Ave subway at Ashland Place, the connection now used by the Brighton line.
Brooklyn, as a whole is better served because this connection was never made.
Here's a couple of pics which show what the rebuilt portion was like:
This pic is of Rockaway Ave. The temporary middle platform was added in 1940 when the line was cut back to this point, but the side platforms are quite visable:
This pic was once labeled as being taken at the Nostrand/Fulton Ave. station, but that caption was removed, so I'm not sure it is this station:
Very interesting. Actually, I still feel the el should have been left and the subway not built (as much as I like it) and built somewhere else. The one good thing that came from the Futlton subway is the Cranberry tube. However the Cranberry tube could have been built "for" the Fulton El instead.
Another thing that may have come out of not building the Fulton subway was that when it came time to attatch the Rockaway line to the subway, they may have let it go the full length (providing service along the abandoned section) up to Queens Blvd to 63rd Drive where it was supposed to go originally. They may have done that instead of connecting it to the Fulton, since it would have been an el all the way. The money for the Fulton line could maybe have done something else like a Metropolitan Ave subway or the proposed Myrtle-Central line, which would have provided service in the "middle of the map".
I don't know if Fulton Street is better off for the Subway, or if the el would have been adequate. I guess the Subway is better, but that must have been an el of an el. But the Subway serves Manhatta, the el served Brooklyn and so while Fulton Street may have survived, I think that downtown Brooklyn suffered as a result.
Elias
The problem with the proposed plan for the Fulton St el was thatit connected int Dekalb Ave. Imagine 2 more routes having to use half a bridge for 20 years. Even with the bridge at full capacity, the additional Fulton St. services (one express, one local) would have seriously limited southern division BMT route headways.
Think of it. All of these trains would have to go through Dekalb if the connection was built:
Brighton local
Brighton express
West End
Sea Beach
Culver (until 1959)
4th Ave local
Fulton local
Fulton express
Can you say logjam?
The Cranberry & Rutgers tubes would have alleviated all of this. The Ashland connection might/should have been built, but they would have likely built another, perhaps via Portland/Ft Greene Park/Myrtle into a transverse version of Jay Street.
Remember that much of the Fulton/Myrtle service went across the Brooklyn Bridge on rickety wooden cars to City Hall.
The Fulton el, had it survived, would likely resemble what we have on B'lyn Broadway today, tho' probably upgraded to take 600-foot trains.
Also remember that the city paid to put the Atlantic LIRR underground. Why did we pay for TWO two-blocks-apart parallel subways when we coulda built the 2nd Ave?
Remember that much of the Fulton/Myrtle service went across the Brooklyn Bridge on rickety wooden cars to City Hall.
"Rickety" sounds like the old anti-el propaganda. The later equipment was steel-framed and quite sturdy. The Q-types (ex-1200/1400) survived in passenger service more than 60 years.
Also remember that the city paid to put the Atlantic LIRR underground. Why did we pay for TWO two-blocks-apart parallel subways when we coulda built the 2nd Ave?
Non-sequitar.
The Cranberry & Rutgers tubes would have alleviated all of this. The Ashland connection might/should have been built, but they would have likely built another, perhaps via Portland/Ft Greene Park/Myrtle into a transverse version of Jay Street.
Building more tunnels would not have done anything to ease the massive tracklock (gridlock for trains) had the Ashland/Fulton St. el connection been built. All of these lines would have shared trackage thru Dekalb.
Now, if you're saying that it might have been more economically sensible to have connected the IND Cranberry St. tube into a rebuilt 3 track Fulton St. el, then you may have a case.
Yeah, too bad they didn't build the IND onoy as far as Clinton Washington (they often began short sections and extended as time went on.) If that was all that was built by 1940, they could have simply ramped it up to the rebuilt section around Franklin, and then perhaps ramp back down to the Pitkin Av. subway, to replace the other unrebuilt section, and from there it would continue as it does now with the ramp past Grant Av.
That way, the entire Bway Junction would still be used, (instead of being demolished now) the Eastern Div. would be connected to the IND (good for when the bridge is out), Canarsie could also have 8th Av. service, and the IND would have access to ENY yard.
Since Fulton had only rush hour express service until 1989, service would have been the same (except no express in reverse peak direction). But it would have been forced to remain that way. Also, I wonder if 75 footers could have negotiated the curve into Atlantic. They might have, but if not, then that would have changed things.
I had been thinking exactly along those lines, too. If the city had the good of the people in mind and not Hylan's grudge, this would have been the cheaper and much more flexible alternative.
If Hylan hadn't been so intent on duplicating both the IND and BMT lines, the original IND would have had one west side line in Manhattan (presumably Eighth Ave.) and one east side line along Second Ave.
If they had done that, the Second Ave. line could have run the length of Manhattan to South Ferry, and crossed the river there. Then, if the city had opted for a deep tunnel underpass for the Gowanus crossing instead of the elevated second, the Second and Eighth Ave. lines could have merged at Smith-Ninth Sts., instead of at Jay St., and shared the same four track line to the southwest corner of Prospect Park. Then either the Eighth or Second Ave. line could have turned east and traveled along Church Ave. or (further east) Linden Blvd. towards East New York and eventually Queens and Far Rockaway/Rockaway Park along the LIRR route (and because the Fulton St./Pitkin/Liberty Aves. el would serve Lefferts, the Rockaways would get full A train service).
An east-west subway route far south of Fulton Street would have created new mass transit options for people in South-Central Brooklyn, and would have allowed the BMT to continue to operate the Fulton el while building the Ashland connection into DeKalb. Eventually, a connection on Chrystie St. could have linked the Manny B to the Second Ave. line (instead of the Sixth Ave. route), and you still could have run six lines through DeKalb -- two via Fourth Ave. and the DeKalb bypass tracks to the Manny B (Sea Beach/Broadway and West End/Second Av. express routes); two via DeKalb and the Montague tunnel (the Fourth Ave./B'way local and presumably the Brighton/B'way local) and two via DeKalb and the Manny B (Brighton/Second Ave. express and presuably the Fulton St. local/Broadway express). That would also give Brighton local trains the option of going from Propsect Park to DeKalb either by the Flatbush Ave. tunnel or via the Franklin/Fulton elevated route in case of train/track problems along the route.
The only losers in this would have been people wanting a four-track Fulton St. express service, and the Lower East Side in Manhattan which would lose the Essex and E. Broadway stops and the Rutgers tunnel if the Second Ave. line went to South Ferry and the Eighth Ave. line stayed the way it is (Sixth Ave. would also have lost a little, but the Seventh Ave. and Broadway lines are so close by most of the route, the loss of it would be more than made up for by the benefits of a four track Second Ave. line).
I couldn't agree more. As I stated in another post in this thread, I really like the Fulton Subway, but feel it was a total waste. The money would have been better spent elsewhere, as the Fulton El was alsmost all rebuilt.
One (obvious) typo correction to that other post -- I meant IRT and BMT were on Hylan's hit list, not IND and BMT.
And just to finish out the plan, while the Fulton el could then run via the Manny B and Second Ave. express, the Second Ave. locals would run to South Ferry, with one taking the F's place and going to Queens while the other went the length of Manhattan (and with the 63rd St tunnel, one of the expresses could have gone to Queens now while the other presumably would have gone to the Bronx along the Grand Concourse, replcing the Sixth Ave. D train).
One (obvious) typo correction to that other post -- I meant IRT and BMT were on Hylan's hit list, not IND and BMT.
lol.... I didn't even notice that...I was thinking IRT anyway, so it must've slipped right by me when I was reading through it fast.
Hylan also had planned a line the length of Flatbush Av. that would have been good, as certain areas along Flatbush could use a closer train. That could have been built for the A instead, but running the BMT out of business was his priority.
I agree. As much as I like the Fulton subway, as it is a grewat line, it was sort of a waste of money. The funds could have been so much more useful if it was apent somewhere where there was no use4full subway line, such as on 2nd Ave, or so many parts of Queens. The Fulton el was the last thing I feel that needed to be replaced with a subway. Again, I really like the Fulton subway, however, I could have liked it "somewhere else" also, where I feel it would have been more use. It's not like the Fulton el was not rebuilt. I would probably have a different opinion if the Fulton el was not at all rebuilt, and it was regarding either rebuilding the Fulton El to Dual Standards (but a good part of it was already) or replacing a nonrebuilt el with subway, then I would choose the latter.
For example, Wouldn't it be nice it the money spent on the Fulton subway was used to replace the unrebuilt Myrtle el, or the 2nd Ave el, etc?
One more point....I believe that if the Fulton subway was never built, when it came time to connect the Rockaway line to the subway, it may have been connected at Queeens Blvd, instead of to the Fulton line (or at least at both places). This too would have added local service along that line. I think the subway system would have been better off as a whole.
If the Fulton El had been connected to Dekalb, Dekalb would have to have been an 8-track, 4-platform station. Still, the four Manhattan-bound tracks would have had to merge to 3, simply not enough capacity for handling all of those lines. What a bonus it would have been, though, with all of those lines meeting at Dekalb, and then the Fulton line being connected to the Cranberry or the tunnel used by the F line today.
If the Fulton El had been connected to Dekalb, Dekalb would have to have been an 8-track, 4-platform station. Still, the four Manhattan-bound tracks would have had to merge to 3, simply not enough capacity for handling all of those lines.
Having four pairs of tracks at De Kalb Av, may not necessarily have been a problem. Have a look at this diagram (http://www.nycroads.com/crossings/manhattan/img6.gif) for the Manhattan bridge. Another two pairs of tracks are shown on the Upper Level. Had these been connected into De Kalb Av Station at one end, and somewhere in Manhattan at the other end (probably a new line), there would be excess, not shortage in track capacity over the East River.
The other effect would be that much lighter cars would be needed on the BMT.
The other effect would be that much lighter cars would be needed on the BMT.
A good part of the Fulton el was already rebuilt to Dual Standards, so they would have only had to rebuilt the rest to allow for the heavier cars we use today.
The upper level roadways of the Manhattan bridge were reserved for streetcars until at least the 1930s. I believe that the south side was used by the Manhattan Bridge 3 cent line and the north side by the Third Ave. Railway (running via conduit rather than overhead wire).
It wasn't untl after trolley service ended that the upper level roadways were rebuilt for automobile traffic.
I would guess that the bridge wasn't designed to handle heavy subway cars on the upper level (apparently is wasn't very well designed to handle the existing subway tracks).
-- Ed Sachs
The ERA has a sale in their Electric Railroad series, and the Manhattan Bridge three cent line is included in the package. However I don't recall if the Third Ave Railway ran across the Manny B. I read the Willie B has Third Ave service (at least it had a place to turn around - Willie B Plaza).
I would guess that the bridge wasn't designed to handle heavy subway cars on the upper level (apparently is wasn't very well designed to handle the existing subway tracks).
You could say that about the Willy B and the Queensboro Bridge as well. AFAIK the only one well built enough is the Brooklyn Bridge, which hasn't had trains on it since the war!
Could you imagine the torsion problems the Manny B would have had if rapid transit was also placed on the upper level roadway?
--Mark
Could you imagine the torsion problems the Manny B would have had if rapid transit was also placed on the upper level roadway?
Yes, I could. It would necessitate much lighter cars.
OI VAY!!
You'd never want to run two Triplex trains on one side at at time.
"You could say that about the Willy B and the Queensboro Bridge as well."
What problems does the WB design have with subway trains? The tracks are in the middle, unlike the MB where they are on the outside.
The whole bridge was rotting away from rust, but that wasn't the fault of the design.
What problems does the WB design have with subway trains?
That today's subway trains are too heavy, resulting in sagging, speed restrictions, and a reduction of capacity. Plus the Willy B could do with an extra pair of subway tracks ;-)
The Triplexes and BMT standards were heavier than any of today's equipment. Besides, both bridges suffered from the same deferred maintenance as the subway system for years.
"That today's subway trains are too heavy, resulting in sagging, speed restrictions, and a reduction of capacity. Plus the Willy B could do with an extra pair of subway tracks ;-) "
You've totally lost me.
The low speed on the WB is due to the structural delicacy of the bridge?
WB capacity is limited due to its structural integrity (rather than because there aren't more people who want to ride that way - the WB has 18 tph and they aren't the most packed trains in the system by any means).
One of the maddening problems with the subway service in downtown Brooklyn is the complete lack of suitable transfer points between the IND (Fulton/Crosstown) and the BMT/IRT Flatbush Ave corridor at the point where all these lines intersect (Flatbush & Fulton). I've always wondered how useful a gigantic & complex megastation which could have been constructed here for all 3 major branches.
Of course, this is because the IND was built to compete rather than cooperate with the IRT and BMT.
-- Ed Sachs
Someone mentioned that the stations looked very much like the stations along the J and M elevated lines, and they really do!
Was there also an express track built on the rebuilt portion of the Fulton, or was it just a "provision" like the Jamaica el?
Nope, the track was actually there.
Here's an excellent view of the "rebuilt portion" of the line between the turnoff at Atantic/Fulton and Rockaway Ave, the temporary terminal from 1940 on. (in the distance, the train is crossing over as it approaches it) Looks remarkably like the Broadway elevated and much more modern that the section between Grant Ave and Atlantic Ave further east on the line.
The greatest transit crime in the history of NY -- greater than the demolition of the old Penn Station -- was the destruction of the Fulton el. Back in the early 20s, the BMT was willing to pay to connect it to DeKalb -- at no cost to the city -- provided the city came thru with the Nassau Loop. Mayor Hylan demurred.
Just imagine what the money that built the Fulton St. subway (and the money burned to build the B-Q crosstown) could have been better put to (the 2 Av, essentially).
That's what I was trying to say! As nice as the Fulton subway is it was a total waste and the money could have been used elsewhere where it was really needed. The fulton el was half rebuilt and a perfectly good el. Again forgetting the mood of the time, for the greater good, they should have spent the money where it was needed....to provide subway to areas of Queens (and even Brooklyn) that have no subway access before they went around replacing els (except in Manhattan.....there it was warranted)
The Airtrain is being built in a generally low-density part of Queens, and the nearest residence is separated from the elevated structure by three lanes of expressway, at the absolute minimum (and I don't think any houses or apartments run right up to the right lane of the expressway).
Second Avenue passes through some of the highest density neighborhoods in the world. Thousands of apartments would be mere feet away.
Class and power have nothing to do with it. An elevated line that close to so many people is too costly to even seriously consider.
"Hello, I'am Mr. Moses. I have come here today to tell you that you have 60 days to vacate your premisis in the construction of the Second Avenue Subway. Thats all, Have a nice day."
Building an el on the median of an expressway is not the same as as building it over, say, Jamaica Ave.
It's also that modern els are anything other than the Jamaica el -- slender concrete structures balanced on single pylons.
My own view is that the planned 2-track 2nd Av should be routed via 1st Av alongside the hospitals between 34th and 14th, and maybe further north and south. We'd probably save a billion or so, enough maybe to make it 4-track.
And while the 2nd Ave comes first, the next big project should be a 3-track el over the LIE, out to Cunningham Park, running as a 2-track subway under 49th St to 9th Av. This would do more to relieve congestion in Queens than anything else.
Depends also on the environment.
You probably do not want to build an el over standard city streets.
But over a six lane highway, why not. The highway would be so wide, it would not block out any light at all. On a properly constructed el structure there is no reason wy a train could not run at 75 mph. Thwy do dis in Wahington with no difficulty.
Elias
I totally agree; any attempt to build an el over a city street would meet such an outcry from NIMBY's.
-Alex V.
You simply treaten the media with their broadcast rights (antenas) or the local cable company contracts (rights to the polls).
I was on the bus headed to Manhattan approaching the Queens-Midtown Tunnel, and saw something I've never seen before. Under the underpass of the LIE was a DM30 pushing a train of bilevels led by Control Cab 5002. It was waiting at the crossing for another train of bilevels and a DM30 being pulled by what looked to be an MP-15. The MP-15 seemed to be pulling the train parallel to Borden Avenue. My questions are:
1.) Was the MP-15 deadheading the train over the now closed (to revenue service) Montauk Branch?
2.) I know that the LIRR Long Island City station only sees limited services, so how many tracks are their?
3.) Is the link between Huntersponit and Long Island City single tracked?
Any Info would be helpful,
Thanks,
Tony
The LIRR "Old" Montauk branch is not closed to revenue service. It still sees one train each way Mon-Fri. However it makes no station stops on the branch.
The MP15 was probably towing another DM30AC that probably died, or having ASC problems.
Right, the MP15 is their protection engine.
Elias
Was the MP-15 deadheading the train over the now closed (to revenue service) Montauk Branch?
Actually there are quite a few deadhead moves along the Montauk Branch, but the DM30's usually do it themselves. The MP's only get involved if there is something wrong woth the the DM30's (probably quite often considering how "reliable" they are)
In answer to your questions:
1. Many times there are deadhead moves between LIC and Jamaica, i.e. Morris Park shops. There is a lot more "service" on the old Montauk Branch than a lot of people know about. However,only one round trip a day is public. There are equipment moves, crew deadhead moves, etc.
2. The LIC Yard actually has about 12 or 13 tracks. Only the northernmost (track 1) is used for a train picking up/dropping passengers.
3. The link between LIC and Hunterspoint is basically two tracks.
And it merges into one just before the Main Line merges in with the Montauk Branch, and at Borden Ave. Crossing.
They're back to using only track 1? Last I went they used tracks 6 and 7 (I think) since they were the only ones with a high platform. Though it makes more sense to use track one so that people don't have to walk over a bunch of tracks to get to the train.
1)what you saw was likely just the yard MP15 shuffling around the trainsets laying over in LIC yard. this is pretty common during the weekdays...
2) a dozen or so? new platforms are going in though.
3)double track. there were some old industrial sidings in there and a third track that leads to the car washer that's next to the HP platform. I'm not sure if that thing is still used though.
Whats a MP-15?
One of the engines that the LIRR used to use in passenger service and freight service with the GP38's and F units. Now they use them as work trains and the NYA has some too.
MP-15
Millitary Police - 15th Batalion
Oh OK, its a LOCOMOTIVE, a small one.
Two of them have M1 control stands in them and are used to coax dead M1s out of the tunnels. Should be able to pull a dead -30 out of the tunnel too.
You will see one of them always parked by Harold Tower. It has an M1 type coupler rigged onto the business end. Once upon a time they jused a jackshaft for this service, and after they were retired , I think that a GG-1 was doing these honors, until they realized that one of the reasons for a dead M1 *might* be a power failiure or a fire that could also render the AC wire useless. So a rescue diesel is kept near at hand.
Elias
there's also a batch of amtrak switchers and work diesels from in and around sunnyside yard that are qualified to go fetch any stalled train in the tubes, if need be.
"there's also a batch of amtrak switchers and work diesels from in and around sunnyside yard that are qualified to go fetch any stalled train in the tubes, if need be."
Won't work on M1s.
Need Special coupler, plus the electronics (an M1 control stand) to "tease" the recalcitrant vehicles into releasing their brakes.
Elias
I'm a big fan of closing stations that are underused, because they just slow down service on the various lines. The LIRR closed Woodhaven in 1976 to speed up service on the Atlantic Avenue trains, because it was underused.
Here's a list of stations I feel should be shut:
1) 75th Avenue & Queens Boulevard - E,F
In all the years I rode these lines daily (about 25), I could count the number of people I saw using this station on both hands. The two stations that sandwich 75th Avenue, Union Turnpike and 71st-Continental Avenues, are major train-bus hubs that many, many more riders use.
2) Bowery - J,M,Z
Its tough to get in and out of anyway, there are so many closed stairs and entrances. Sandwiched by Essex Street, a major transit hub and Chambers Street.
3) York Street - F
Another station close to a major transit hub, Jay Street - Boro Hall. Very few users that I've observed, even at rush hour.
Hoyt Street - 1,2
This station is walking distance from the Jay Street - Boro Hall station on the A line as well as Boro Hall on the 1,2,4,5,N and R. 1 and 2 service would be improved by eliminating this station.
18th Street/7 Ave - 1,2
The reasons for shutting the east side IRT 18th Street station apply to this one as well.
On the London Underground, some stations are open only on weekdays during rush hours, and closed the rest of the time. It seems to me that Transit could save $$$ by at least shutting down these underutilized stations during off peak hours. Does anyone use the 75th Avenue station at 3 a.m.??
>>18th Street/7 Ave - 1,2
The reasons for shutting the east side IRT 18th Street station apply to this one as well. <<
If they did the station would have been closed decades ago.
From what I have seen on weekends the 18th St/7th Av station can get rather busy. It is the closest station to the "new" shopping area on 6th Av (Bed, Bath & Beyond, Old Navy, Today's Man etc). Do you expect people who live on the #1/#2 to have to switch to other trains which will only get them as close as 23rd or 14th Sts?
Also this is a heavy residential area and I am sure the people who live there might have a few choice (4 letter) words for anyone who would even think of closing the station.
18th Street does get a decent amount of ridership. Even so, having three stops between 34th and 14th is just too much. Walking to 14th or 23rd wouldn't be too great of a sacrifice.
Hey, then there'd be two abandoned 18th Street stations.
"Hey, then there'd be two abandoned 18th Street stations. "
So... build a piano bar on one of them!
BTW, what ever happened to the bar idea at Lex's 18th Street?
It would be a great use of the realestate, to open a resturant on an unused platform. You would probably want to put up a window along the platform edge, to protect the patrons, to keep the noise out, and to keep the air conditioning in. Maybe they could sell *real* Subway Sandwiches!
Elias
There was a similar plan to open up a bar on the Lexington's abandoned 18th St station. I don't know what became of the plan. I think City Hall would make an elegant retaurant. They'd have to have a real soundproof glass though, the screeching in that station is deafening. I wish they would open a bar or restaurant at 18th St. I think it would do well. That location would probably be best out of the abandoned stations I could think of, although 91st might also work.
Both of those stations were built before 1920, when trains were much shorter. If the east side 18th Street was closed b/c it was too close to 14th Street, the same logic should apply to the west side 18th Street station.
The difference was that Union Square was extended torwards 18th Street when they lengthened the platforms, making it much closer to 18th St on the Lex, than 18th street on the west side is to 14th there.
Yes, all of the 14th Street stations extend north to 16th, the exception being the 7th Avenue stop which extends south to 12th.
The 7th Avenue subway was built with the current length of trains in mind. The difference being that IRT trains did not open the front door of the first car and the rear door of the last car.
Not that I want them to close the 18th Street station, and feel that since it's there it should stay. However, it probably was overkill to put it there in the first place. 8th Ave does fine without a 18th ST or28th St station.
So does 6th Avenue.
I think it was done for revenue purposes. The IRT wanted to maximize the number of stations because more stations would generate more riders and more revenue. Same applies, to a lesser extent, to the BMT B'way line's 28th Street stop. By the time the IND was built the silliness of having stations so close to each other had become obvious and thus no 18th or 28th Street stations were built.
I am not qualified to comment on the NY stations mentioned, but it should be pointed out that the London parallel isn't a good one. I am not aware of any current peak-hour-only stations on the London tube; the ones that used to exist were little branch lines where the whole line worked in peak hours only (Aldwych, Ongar). These two lines are now closed down completely. There are one or two stations in The City (London's financial district) that are closed at weekends, but they are open all day on weekdays. Similarly the Woodford-Hainault shuttle on the Central Line closes about 8 p.m.; but that's a whole branch line, so they save the cost of running the trains too. Again, it's open through the middle of the day. The idea is to save money, not time -- London Underground doesn't close stations just to speed up the service to other stations.
IIRC, West Brompton is closed on Sundays.
Shoreditch closes off-peak still.
London generally has more widely spaced stations than NY, speeding journey times. Even Epping to Oxford Circus has only 19 station stops for a journey of 17 miles approx. Amersham to Liverpool Street has only 15 stops, for 23 miles approx.
This partly assisted by many closures soon after lines opened. These include City Road (Northern), and Down Street, Brompton Road, York Road (Piccadilly).
In the grim days of the 1990s, there was also talk of closing Regent's Park (Bakerloo), Mornington Crescent and Borough (Northern).
Sorry, I pressed post and then realised I had made a mistake and pressed the stop button. Although I seemed to catch this in time, this one got posted anyway.
Shoreditch closes off-peak still.
London generally has more widely spaced stations than NY, speeding journey times. Even Epping to Oxford Circus has only 19 station stops for a journey of 17 miles approx. Amersham to Liverpool Street has only 15 stops, for 23 miles approx.
This partly assisted by many closures soon after lines opened. These include City Road (Northern), and Down Street, Brompton Road, York Road (Piccadilly).
In the grim days of the 1980s, there was also talk of closing Regent's Park (Bakerloo), Mornington Crescent and Borough (Northern).
Shoreditch closes off-peak still.
It sure does. And it'll soon close forever, once the ELL is connected to the NLL.
London generally has more widely spaced stations than NY, speeding journey times.
Generally being the operative word. Leicester Square to Covent Garden is a ridiculously short distance. With Covent Garden only having elevators (no escalators), I'm surprised it hasn't been closed.
Embankment and Charing Cross are also really close to eachother. The trio of Earls Court, Kensington Olympia and West Brompton are well within walking distance from eachother. West Brompton used to close on Sundays - it once looked like it would close forever when LT were really into the closing stations thing.
This partly assisted by many closures soon after lines opened. These include City Road (Northern), and Down Street, Brompton Road, York Road (Piccadilly).
And some more recent closures. Bring back the Aldwych Shuttle (closed 1994)!!! Plus it doesn't feel right now Ongar isn't there in the top right corner of the map. The Fast Amersham trains should be extended to Aylesbury, so that proper expresses can run out of Marylebone - I have a dream of leaping on a 150mph train on Platform 4 at Marylebone and getting to Leicester Central with one intermediate stop at Rugby Central - or even better Birmingham Snow Hill only stopping at Banbury!
Some of the closures could do with returning. Brompton Road looks surprisingly usefully located. However, you can't help wondering why anyone ever bothered building York Rd station - it is, and has always been, in the middle of an industrial wasteland.
In the grim days of the 1980s, there was also talk of closing Regent's Park (Bakerloo), Mornington Crescent and Borough (Northern).
Those sure were grim days. I have used two of those three stations! No prizes for guessing which two (clue: I'm from North of the Thames).
Anyway, here's a list of the remaining part time stations in London, sorted by line:
BAKERLOO: All stations full time.
CENTRAL: Chancery Lane closed Sundays; Roding Valley, Chigwell, Grange Hill all close at 8pm daily.
DISTRICT / Southern Half of CIRCLE: West Brompton is now full time! Temple is closed on Sundays; Cannon St is only open Monday to Friday until 9pm.
EAST LONDON: Shoreditch (which will soon close permanently) is only open Monday to Friday Peaks and (rather bizarrely) Sundays until 3pm.
HAMMERSMITH & CITY / Northen Half of CIRCLE: All stations full time.
JUBILEE: All stations full time.
METROPOLITAN: All stations full time.
NORTHERN: All stations full time, but Camden Town is exit and interchange only on Sundays between 1pm and 5:30pm (weird!).
PICCADILLY: Turnham Green is only occasionally served - however, it has full time District Line service.
VICTORIA: All stations full time.
WATERLOO & CITY: Only operates 6:15am-9:30pm Monday to Friday and 8am to 6:30pm Saturdays
P.S. Here follows an English Subtalk fantasy:
Build a new station on the H&C and Circle Lines at Gt Central St with access into the mezzanine of Marylebone Station. Extend the District line one stop from Edgware Rd to Marylebone.
Complete Marylebone station - build platforms 5-10!
Move the Kenton station (Bakerloo & BR) to interchange with Northwick Park (Metropolitan).
Close Wembley Central (Bakerloo & BR) and replace with a station North of the High Rd, with High Level Platforms on the Marylebone - High Wycombe Line above.
I take it from this that you are a Great Central fan. Don't forget Watkins' grand plan for a through route from the Midlands to France via London, Kent, and the Channel Tunnel.
I take it from this that you are a Great Central fan.
Sure am! Not a single level crossing (grade crossing) from Beighton, Yorkshire to London, a shorter more direct route with fewer curves, making for a good fast modern railway. compare that to the London Eusless - Birmngham New Street Line.
The current Chiltern Railway which operates all service out of Marylebone is the best railway in Britain (at least the mainland), although it could do with some faster trains and re-opening a few sections, in order of priority:
1. Aylesbury - Leicester Central
2. Banbury - Woodford & Hinton
3. Quainton Rd Junction - Buckingham
4. Princes' Risborough - Oxford
5. Princes' Risborough - Watlington
6. The Uxbridge High St spur
I also am a fan of the Birmingham route off the former GCR/GWR joint line, although that was a Great Western not a Great Central route at first. I really hope that once the Terminal Platforms at Birmingham Moor Street re-open the line gets re-quadrupled to at least Dorridge, preferably Leamington Spa.
Don't forget Watkins' grand plan for a through route from the Midlands to France via London, Kent, and the Channel Tunnel.
I sure won't! As a matter of fact, I'll be riding from Birmingham Snow Hill to London Marylebone on the 10:30 am departure, then catching the Bakerloo Line to Waterloo, then getting on the 2:23 pm to Lille Gare d'Europe (the train continues to Bruxelles Gare du Midi) this July 4th, returning on the afternoon of July 6th.
I have a bit of a dream of a lower level being constructed at Marylebone then through a deep tube alignment (roughly Gt Central St, Wyndham St, Wyndham Pl, Bryanston Sq, Gt Cumberland Pl, Park La, Hyde Park Corner, Grosvenor Pl, Grosvenor Gdns) to a lower level at Victoria to join the current Eurostar alignment South of the Thames. Absolute Subtalk fantasy stuff, but it would be nice. Birmingham and Leicester to France and Belgium direct :D
However, the London system has very few express runs (only two, IINM). NYC has many more. Why should a popular station be closed, even if it's close to another station, if the express already bypasses it?
This is one criticism many have of the proposed Second Avenue subway: it's only two tracks, and stations will be spaced too far to make a good local line but too closely to make a good express line, so even if the money is found at a later date to add a second pair of tracks, there's no easy way to convert it to useful four-track local-express line.
However, the London system has very few express runs (only two, IINM).
Correct. Metropolitan Line has Fast Trains to Amersham and Semi-Fast Trains to Watford (Cassiobury Park. The Piccadilly Line acts as the District Line Express between Acton Town and Earl's Court.
This of course causes problems with regard to track maintenance, as it is much more expensive to do because all work has to be done between 12 midnight and 5am, which in turn prevents 24 hour service.
This is one criticism many have of the proposed Second Avenue subway: it's only two tracks, and stations will be spaced too far to make a good local line but too closely to make a good express line, so even if the money is found at a later date to add a second pair of tracks, there's no easy way to convert it to useful four-track local-express line.
Agreed. If they don't have enough money to build a full length 4-track Line, it should be built only as far as a 4-track line can be afforded. Even 63rd to 86th would be a good start.
One of my favourite runs on the Met was when Chesham trains used to run non-stop from Finchley Road to Moor Park. Now that was an express!
Don't forget that the Victoria Line first started out as a plan to build an express Northern Line, and it does stil fulfil this role: Stockwell to Euston is 3 fewer stops compared with the Northern Line, Stockwell to Kings Cross is two fewer stops. Most stations inside the Circle Line are so important that no-one would contemplate skipping them even if the tubes were four-tracked. The only exceptions would be Regent's Park, Covent Garden, Goodge Street, Lancaster Gate and Queensway, and possibly Russell Square and Warren Street.
One of my favourite runs on the Met was when Chesham trains used to run non-stop from Finchley Road to Moor Park. Now that was an express!
Yeehah! And you'd still get stupid tourists who didn't understand what Fast Chesham meant wanting to go one stop.
I just read in the newspaper this morning what the tourists' favourite route is... Leicester Sq to Covent Garden, a vast distance of 0.16 miles! It takes longer to get out of Covent Garden station than it would to walk from Leicester Sq!
Don't forget that the Victoria Line first started out as a plan to build an express Northern Line, and it does stil fulfil this role: Stockwell to Euston is 3 fewer stops compared with the Northern Line, Stockwell to Kings Cross is two fewer stops.
And the Northern half is an express Piccadilly Line - 2 fewer stops between Finsbury Park and King's X. Rather surprisingly, I have never ridden any part of the Victoria Line! I must do that some time soon!
Most stations inside the Circle Line are so important that no-one would contemplate skipping them even if the tubes were four-tracked. The only exceptions would be Regent's Park, Covent Garden, Goodge Street, Lancaster Gate and Queensway, and possibly Russell Square and Warren Street.
Covent Garden should be closed - it is completely pointless. The lifts should be pillaged so that Aldwych can re-open. That was a dead useful little shuttle!
I'd add Marble Arch, Chancery Lane and St Paul's to the skippable list. The only time I ever wanted to use St Paul's the train skipped it anyway. The Line which could most do with a full length express IMHO is the District Line - Take over the Piccadilly West of Earl's Court, then stop at Victoria, Embankment, Tower Hill, Whitechapel, Mile End, then all stops. Grrr - why can't there be 4 tracks when you want them?
The Northern half of the Circle actually could do with an extra stop at Marylebone, then connecting Gt Portland St to Regents Park and Eusless Square to either Warren St or Eusless. This would make it so much easier to avoid that hell-hole Oxford Circus!
I like Goodge Street - it makes it possible not to use Tottenham Court Road after leaving the British Museum in the rush hour. Equally Russell Sq with regard to Holborn.
I don't know about all that. In the past year I've used Hoyt St. tons of times (fastest way from Wall St. to Metrotech. The N/R alternative is much slower), and even Bowery a couple times (right above it is the Bowery Ballroom). Bowery I could probably understand but Hoyt is right in the middle of everything in Brooklyn.
On a recent to NYC, I used The Bowery station (to go to a restaurant supply store) and 18th/7th (to meet a friend) on the same day.
If you are going to close stations, the criteria should be the distance from other stations, not ridership. Ridership could change if development patterns change.
There is a tradeoff between how far you have to walk and how long you have to ride. As was discussed over in Bustalk, I am in favor of a longer walk for a faster ride, although Old Tom pointed out that this is bad for the handicapped. Most of the subway system averages one local station every half mile and one express station every two miles. That's not bad, although I'd space express stations even more widely.
Therefore, 18th Avenue on the 1&9 and 28th Street on the 6 should go. Stations at 14th, 23rd and 34th are sufficient. I'd also make Nostrand a local stop on the Fulton Street line. The extra stop slows down the A, and Nostrand riders only gain a station or two by having the A there. You'd add more C trains to take the extra passengers. Finally, I'd close the two Rector Street stops in Lower Manhattan, once the Cortlandt Street stops and South Ferry are rebuilt. You could walk up from South Ferry or Whitehall, or down from Cortlandt Street.
The problem comes when keeping all the stations makes them too close together, but closing any one leaves too big a gap. The only solution is to build a new station and close two, but unless the two really need huge work that doesn't pay.
I just wish, however, that instead of just extending Bleeker Street station (6) south to complete the IND transfer, they would merge Bleeker and Spring into a new station centered at Houston, with entrances both in the Village and Soho. The Lex Express is packed, but the Lex local has capacity -- unused -- because it is too slow. Eliminating two stations might help by speeding things along.
Replacing Spring Street and Bleecker Street with a new station at Houston Street wouldn't be eliminating two stations -- it would be replacing two stations with one, for a net reduction of ONE station.
Not that it's a bad idea...
David
Chicago did that with some el stations: built a new one between two old ones to improve spacing. (Of course that is a lot more expensive to do on an underground route.) I think, in addition, some el stations were just closed without nearby replacements.
Anybody have details about which Chicago stations have been closed?
Hoyt Street Station is right beside the Fulton Mall shopping complex and one of its exits was only about 100 feet north of the employee entrance to A&S (now shuttered) Dept. store.
The A&S isn't shuttered, it's now a Macy's.
Thanks for the heads up on Macy's - Haven't been there in several years. Be it an A&S or a Macy's it seems out of place when compared to the boutiques, record stores and electronic stores Fulton Street.
A&S was a *beautiful* store! Much nicer than Macy*s 34th Street!
Probably the most elegant large department store in NYC,
Elias
Do they still have those cool escalators with the glass sides in it? I haven't been there in over 10 years. I remember the elevators had operators that annnounced what was on each floor! I wonder if Macy's does that. They did at A&S right up to the end when the chain went out of business.
Maybe that's why the chain went out of business, especially since automated announcements in elevators have been around for years.
Actually, the chain didn't go out of business per se. It was owned by Federated from the 1920s onward. Federated acquired Macys around 1992 and then decided to abandon A&S shortly after (1994 I think). Same thing with Stern's. The company is still there, but the brand is just abandoned. Chrysler's Eagle (originally AMC) and Plymouth and GM's Oldsmobile also come to mind.
No, the elevators at Macy's on 34th St. have been silent for years. I still remember the floor announcements (nothing specific such as ladies' lingerie) and the "Going up/Going down" exterior announcements, not to mention the manually operated express elevators.
I meant the old A&S, now Macy's on Fulton Street, but thanks for the info. I never knew the Macy's on 34th STreet did the elevator announcing thing too.
"I never knew the Macy's on 34th STreet did the elevator announcing thing too."
Sure.
Once Upon a Time, Probaply before you were born,
All of the Elevators were Manual
And it was no problem for Manuel (probly wasn't his name back then)
to call out the floors.
But OPTO Elevators have given way to automatic....
etc. etc.
I can remember the "Hoyt Street" station on the IRT. The Uptown side had the entrance to "A&S" Basement of the department store. "A&S" had the beautiful Department Store display windows right on the platform of the station. Those were great days...stores were able to have nice display windows to show merchadise to the public without fear of vandalism and theft. People had respect for anothers property. Abraham & Strauss (A&S) was a real quality department store with great employees.
This loss of A&S reminds me of the "Sears" Department store in Flatbush located on Clarendon Road....at one time they also had nice display windows...now the display windows are filled in with concrete blocks and looked like a fortress. The times have sure changed.
Again, I hate to see stations abandoned, but I have felt many times that at Bowery they might as well just turn off the lights and put it out of it's misery. I've never seen more than a handful of people at that station in all the years I've past through there. And the handful of people were just homeless lying on the platform.
I ue Bowery from time to time. I've never lain down on the platform, nor have I ever seen anyone else lying down. I admit it's never very full.
Actually it was a few years back that I regularly saw homeless at Bowery station, when I used the M line regularly back in the late 80's and early 90's. It usually was at the ends of the platform, and there was generally more homeless people in the subway in general......pre Guiliani.......
Guess why cops carry night sticks?
1. Poke and see if dead
2. Beat him until he runs out of subway
3. Abner Louima style incident
Makes for better railfanning too. ;)
BTW, was Bowery ever a well used station? It seems to be built expecting trainloads of passengers that never came. There are even 4 tracks! I don't know if Bowery's situation is a "has Been" station or possibly a "never been at all" station! I know the Nassau line was much more important years ago, but how important was Bowery way back when?
As Nixon used to say, "I'm glad you asked that question."
Read all about it here.
York Street - F
I've seen plenty of people use this station, maybe they tend to ride in a different section of the train than you. It isn't terribly close to Jay Street, and it is really the ONLY subway station in Dumbo, which is becomming increasingly residential.
Hoyt Street - 2
not particularly close to the 1&2 Burrough Hall station. Closer to Jay street, but so what, 2 IND lines does not a transit hub make. Hoyt is the only IRT station in the heart of downtown brooklyn. I used to use this station to get to work every day. UWS to Metrotech. 1&2 trains aren't particularly held up by Hoyt Street, and 4&5 trains pass it entirely. So where is the problem?
A better target on the F would be Smith-9th which is in the middle of an industrial area. I think most of the people getting off are catching the bus to red hook. Rerouting the bus would make the station nearly obsolete.
Nevins on the 1,2,4,&5 might not be necessary. There is little residential, or much business density there, and the nearby Atlantic-Pacific complex and Dekalb stations really are transit hubs.
I agree with keeping York Street-F open, since the growth in DUMBO will really increase patronage. Im sure that station had many more riders when the Navy Yard was open.
I used to pass through York everyday, when I used Jay St. The station always had fairly few passengers. It seems to be in fairly good shape though, considering they probably don't maintain it that well, as it is a low use station.
I used York for the first time a few weeks ago on a Sunday. It wasn't crowded, but it wasn't deserted either.
(I used York for the first time a few weeks ago on a Sunday. It wasn't crowded, but it wasn't deserted either.)
York is an example of why distance, not usage, should be the criteria for closing (and opening) stations. For decades York was deserted, but the area has begun to experience redevelopment. If the plans on the drawing board come to fruition, it might become crowded indeed.
Nevins is the last transfer between 1 2 4 &5 trains. You have to go up and down stairs at atlantic or boro hall. When I lived in Park Slope I changed there all the time. LIU and downtown bklyn are close by.
I certainly do not agree - you appear to have based your ridership estimate on a few casual observations.
In addition, you don't understand NYC Transit's mission.
Unlike Washington Metrorail and other systems which operate commuter-like services, NYC subways are intended to be very accessible and convenient by walking. Stations are close together and high in number, with lots of transfers (more than any other system in the world). The subway is like a big moving sidewalk covering the whole city (or as much as possible). Speed is important but is not the primary mission.
The Long Island Railroad, by contrast, is designed to gather passengers by car, taxi, bus (and walking too) and speed them to a central drop off in Manhattan or Brooklyn.
>> The Long Island Railroad, by contrast, is designed to gather passengers by car, taxi, bus (and walking too) and speed them to a central drop off in Manhattan or Brooklyn. <<
I noticed only today that at the Bellmore station, small signs reading "Bellmore" are posted only in the eastbound direction. From Sunrise Highway, I could see no such signs in the westbound direction-- the clear message being that only a looney would actually exit the train westbound at Bellmore instead of continuing to Manhattan or Brooklyn.
I don't think NYCT's mission is as simple as you make it out to be.
Every subway -- indeed, all transit -- is faced with the dilemma you describe: more stations means better accessibility for passengers, which means more passengers; however, fewer stations means higher speeds, which also means more passengers -- the faster the journeys you can offer, the more likely it is that people will choose your service over the alternatives.
Journey time is a major factor when people choose a mode of transport. Journey time is affected by more than just average train (or bus, or car) speeds, but those are obviously an important element.
I agree with you on the importance of walk-in accessibility, but that's not necessarily an argument against closing LITTLE-USED stations that, while they may be convenient for small numbers of people, are slowing down the journeys of large numbers of other people.
Mvh Tim
"Every subway -- indeed, all transit -- is faced with the dilemma you describe: more stations means better accessibility for passengers, which means more passengers; however, fewer stations means higher speeds, which also means more passengers -- the faster the journeys you can offer, the more likely it is that people will choose your service over the alternatives. "
When I lived in Brooklyn, at Bergen and Bond streets, the (F) train was one long block away. And I worked at 34th Street in Manhattan (first on Fifth Avenue, and then on 7th Avenue), so you would *think* that I would ride the (F) train.
WRONG
I walked either to Pacific Street or to DeKalb Avenue in order to catch the BMT Bridge Line, (QB) (N) (T) or whatever, BECAUSE IT WAS FASTER! It was more frequent, and it did not make all of those piddly stops that the 6th Avenue LOCAL made.
GASH that (F) train anoyed me no end!
Elias
Was it really faster, or did it just seem that way?
According to the current TA posted timetables (which differ from the schedules in effect when you lived in Brooklyn, I'm sure, but by no more than a few minutes), the F is scheduled to take about 15 minutes from Jay to 34th and the Q is scheduled to take about 15 minutes from DeKalb to 34th. Bergen to Jay adds another minute or two, but your longer walk to DeKalb adds more than that.
At least in current practice, each local stop adds about 30 seconds. Much of your claimed time savings resulted from the shorter wait for trains at DeKalb/Pacific, and some of it was perhaps only psychological, as expresses invariably seem much faster than they really are. (Someone ought to do a study on this.)
Correct, there *are* more trains on the bridge line.
And the (F) just seems so much slower, though of course bridge trains were no great shakers going across that bridge.
A stop at Canal and 14th is faster than stops at Jay, York, Essex, 2nd, Houston, W4th, 14th, and 23rd.
Elias
A stop at Canal and 14th is faster than stops at Jay, York, Essex, 2nd, Houston, W4th, 14th, and 23rd.
Not necessarily. If the train with more stops takes a shorter route or moves faster while it is moving, it might come out ahead. I posted the relevant numbers from today's schedule, and the F and Q take about the same time even though the F makes more stops.
Hey! I *used to ride* the Queens Blvd Line once in a while...
and I can tell you "Stops are Stops" and "A Train Isn't going Faster when it is Stopped!". : )-
Elias
I think we should close the station nearest your home at all times.
-Hank
Good point, I'm sure it is VERY safe to say, the poster does not by any the those stations he wants closed.
I live near the 238 on the #1, I could just see him saying, only "4" blocks from VCP/242? Lets close 238. In fact it is really more than 4 blocks. You also need to consider those who are older or have physical maladies that would making walking those "few" extra blocks a major hardship. If the money has already been spent to build these stations, I think they offer a service to the area they are in.
And just how much time are you saving on a give train ride by closing one or two stations????? I think it would be measured in second instead of minutes.
About half a minute difference when things go according to plan and assuming to funky stuff if you are going 30mph. If you are going faster the time lost is greater.
238 may be only 4 blocks from 242, but it is also 7 blocks from 231. If 238 were closed, an 11 block gap would arise, which is frankly a bit much.
Good point, I'm sure it is VERY safe to say, the poster does not live by any of those stations he wants closed.
I live near 238 St on the #1, I could just see him saying, only "4" blocks from VCP/242? Lets close 238. In fact it is really more than 4 blocks. You also need to consider those who are older or have physical maladies that would making walking those "few" extra blocks a major hardship. If the money has already been spent to build these stations, I think they offer a service to the area they are in.
And just how much time are you saving on a give train ride by closing one or two stations????? I think it would be measured in seconds instead of minutes.
Atlantic & Nassau on the SIR. There was a proposal to shut them both down and build a new station with a park-n-ride at Arthur Kill Road & Ellis Street. Nothing ever came of it, and I haven't seen it mentioned in the local press for a few years.
I live near Nassau. Arthur Kill Rd is close enough to the station that the extra walk is no big deal. Atlantic, while also an easy walk from where I live (I'm still closer to Nassau) is actually closer to more of the population. Directly under the Arthur Kill Rd bridge over the tracks, the tracks are on a curve. Neither station was renovated in the 90s, so Nassau can only host a four-car train, and Atlantic one car. Richmond Valley, which is a bit of a walk from Nassau, was renovated but can only host a three-car train. Normal procedure here is to cut-out the first car.
-Hank
Bowery ridership is increasing. Many of the manufacturing buildings that have been underutilized for years are being converted to residential.
There's a perfectly good entrance at the northeast corner of Bowery and Delancey. Admittedly, it's about 50 steps down to the station, but that's less than many others.
It's more of a walk from there to Essex or Canal (not Chambers, which is much further) than it is from 23rd St to 28th St. Grand St is nearby but goes to totally different places.
And by the way, when Grand St was open, the Z skipped Bowery.
Both the J and Z skipped Bowery actually. The J skipped it whenever the M was running.
75th Avenue: The distance from Union to Continental is too long without an intermediate stop. I don't know what ridership is like there, but of course it's not going to be as busy as other stations nearby with bus connections -- it only serves the residents in walking distance.
Bowery: Again, the distance from Essex/Delancey to Canal/Centre is quite long. Leave it alone. Better yet, connect it to the south end of the Grand Street station, which is quite close.
York Street: As others have said, it has been getting decent ridership lately and it's nowhere near any other station. Perhaps it doesn't have as much of a rush hour peak as you're used to; when I rode there on a Sunday morning, a lot of people got off with me.
Hoyt Street: Keep it. It's a pretty busy station, from what I've seen.
18th Street: The East Side 18th Street station was closed because the 14th Street station there was extended north. The other 14th Street stations all run north of 14th, with exits at 16th, except on this line, where it runs south to 12th. So the reasons that applied on the East Side don't apply on the West Side. Besides, this station ranked 144th in 1999, with 2,418,891 fares paid, according to this post. That's more than Rector, more than Franklin, and more than Canal. If you're going to close a station on the line, why that one?
Bowery: Again, the distance from Essex/Delancey to Canal/Centre is quite long. Leave it alone. Better yet, connect it to the south end of the Grand Street station, which is quite close.
How close to Grand is Bowery? That seems like a great connection because there is no easy connection between the Manhattan Bridge line and the MJZ line. For example, I had to travel from the M line to the Brighton line a while back. My choices were to take the M to the F at Essex to the D at Bwy-Laf (MB still open) or take the M to Dekalb. It would have been much easier to transfer at a Bowery-Grand connection. Besides, Bowery is the only station on the Nassau line that is not a transfer station.
The north end of Grand St station almost reaches to Delancey and the east end of Bowery station almost reaches to Christie, so they are extremely close to each other. Probably 100'.
So why don't they build the connection? It seems very useful. Is it even a plan?
This may cost a few million dollars and disrupt peoples backyards above, but why not combine these two stations ?
Cortelyou and Beverley Road on the (Q) Brighton Line. Essentially, you're cutting into the concrete wall between Beverley and Cortelyou, while retaining the current fare controls. You'll have one station that serves both streets as before, but the train makes one stop instead of two. Beverley at the north end and Cortelyou at the south end. Like I said, it may never happen. Good or bad idea ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I think its a decent idea but not cost effective enough to get built. It just doesnt justify the expense and disruption.
The distance from mezzanine to mezzanine is greater than one train-length, although not by much.
Here's my photo again. I'm standing on the overpass at Beverley; the Cortelyou overpass is just ahead.
It still might be worth considering.
Nice Picture
Beverly is the odd stop out. You have to factor in the commercial land use on Cortelyou, which allows some quick shopping on the way home from the train. Same thing on Church, Newkirk Plaza, etc, and at train stops all over the city. But Beverly is the exception.
>>Beverly is the odd stop out. You have to factor in the commercial land use on Cortelyou, which allows some quick shopping on the way home from the train. Same thing on Church, Newkirk Plaza, etc, and at train stops all over the city. But Beverly is the exception.<<
That's true Larry, but both stations were built when the line had wooden "el" cars. Can't figure out why so close together or what the BRT was thinking. You can't close Beverly so save one stop. Those living on Beverly would be furious. So build a new platform to connect both existing platforms. Nice idea, but I'm not holding my breath !
Bill "Newkirk"
I heard the reason one of the two stations was built was because a judge (or some other public official) wanted a station by his house and didn't want to walk the block or two.
Yes it was George B. Cortelyou, who became Secretary of the Treasury under Theodore Roosevelt.
The way I heard it, he was in Washington while the Brighton line grade elimination project was underway, and when he returned home to Brooklyn, and saw a station was planned for Beverly Road, he didn't like that very much and used his power to add a station on his namesake road.
That's the story my grandfather told me, and he lived there at the time.
This doesn't make sense. If any stop would be omitted, it would be Avenue B (Beverley), since Avenue C (Cortelyou) was already the major street, with a trolley and commercial facilities. Avenue B was the newcomer, that was built with all of the streets in the area. Avenue C/Cortelyou Road is a much older road, originally called Turner Narrow Lane and running from Flatbush Turnpike to the Old Bath Road (18th Avenue, but it turned away to end at what is now 36th and Church).
In addition, was George Cortelyou even FROM Brooklyn?
Cortelyou, George Bruce
Related: United States History Biographies
(kôr´telyoo) , 1862-1940, American public official and business executive, b. New York City. He taught school, and after learning stenography, he became secretary to several New York City and federal officials. Appointed (1895) stenographer to President Cleveland, Cortelyou became secretary to Presidents McKinley (1900)* and Theodore Roosevelt (1901). He also served under Roosevelt as Secretary of Commerce and Labor (1903-4), Postmaster General (1905-7), and Secretary of the Treasury (1907-9). He then left government service and became prominent as an executive of public-utility companies.
B.R.T.?
*As the mortally wounded McKinley watched the madman Leon Czolgosz being subdued, he cried out, "Don't let them hurt him!" Then, to his secretary George Cortelyou he gasped, "My wife--be careful, Cortelyou, how you tell her--oh, be careful!"
Ex-cellent.
Now we know where the name Cortelyou Road comes from.
Still, I can see if he had Beverley added, but Cortelyou would have been there anyway. The name Cortelyou Road was only applied because it's starts with a C. The naming of area streets was done for two reasons: First, it's a little more upper class and secondly, the street grid was confusing as hell. Avenue C ends on Cortelyou Road, reappears on the other side of the same street, one block south at almost the intersection of Avenue D, then meets Avenue B at Flatbush with Avenue C starting again another block south at the exact intersection with Avenue D, which at the Coney Island end, was closer to Avenue E than to Avenue D.
I believe you are correct.
I posted in another thread (I can't find it, so I'll repeat from memory) that one of the developers of the area around Beverley Road had close ties (familial, perhaps) with one of the BRT head honchos when the rail line was being converted to subway standards. The initial plans were to close Beverley, but the developer asked that it be kept open so the residents of his community wouldn't have to walk all the way to Cortelyou or Church.
I heard this from Ron Schweiger, Brooklyn Borough Historian. (Any errors are due to my own faulty memory.)
Closing every other station on the Broadway-Jamaica el would have a remarkable effect on speeding up trains. We've spoken several times on why they should close Hewes and Lorimer, replacing it with a station directly over the G train, with a direct transfer.
69th St. on the Flushing is barely a car length away from 74/B'way, and one wonders why it still exists. Respacing the Flushing stations (monumentally expensive) would let one to drop 3 or even 4 stations.
The stations on the Flushing and Broadway els were built for shorter trains, and have grown longer over the years.
A possible heresy. The Fulton, Wall and Bowling Green stations might be respaced into two stations, consequent to the rebuilding.
In other threads, Intervale Ave has several times been mentioned as a candidate for closure. I imagine there are other Bronx stations that could get the axe, or would benefit from respacing.
The talk is that they are actually going to join the two Rector stations. I would have moved the two Cortlandt stations somewhat further south, and simply dispensed with the Rectors.
Two stations that really could be economically combined into a new respaced one are 8th Av and Ft Ham on the Sea Beach
But nearly all of the stations on the Flushing line get huge amounts of patronage, so why close some? Nearly all are busy most of the time (except some of the LIC ones and Willets Pt).
Why close Intervale, they rebuilt it after the fire...
The point being there was no need to rebuild Intervale at all, really.
Some of the A train stops in Edgemere/Arverne should be closed. the entire area is nothing but empty lots.
Maybe one day they will build on those empty lots. BAsically the whole area turned back to an empty field. It's inevitable that one day it will become built up again. Until then though, I guess you are right. However it's easier to close a station than it is to open one when the need arises, so maybe they should just leave it alone.
Well, there will be a station closing on the Newark City Subway very soon: Heller Parkway. All they had to do was build a ramp from Branch Brook Park (formerly Franklin Avenue) station.
Walking from DUMBO (served by the F York St. stop) to Jay St./Borough Hall is quite a distance through a fairly depopulated area (safe, but still scary, at night). It's also a steep uphill climb. I'm sure as more people move to DUMBO, you'll see more ridership on the York St. stop.
Hoyt Street - 1,2
This station is walking distance from the Jay Street - Boro Hall station on the A line as well as Boro Hall on the 1,2,4,5,N and R. 1 and 2 service would be improved by eliminating this station.
Why close it down when it has been refurbished with red brick and designs? It'll be a hassle for commuters who could save a few minutes by not walking to Borough Hall and by chance, missing the train which would've stopped at Hoyt St. if it hadn't been closed. (if it was closed)
18th Street/7 Ave - 1,2
The reasons for shutting the east side IRT 18th Street station apply to this one as well.
This station is not underused, at least at the time I rode the 1 train which was around 11:00p-12:00a. There are quite a few people on the train at this hour.
On the London Underground, some stations are open only on weekdays during rush hours, and closed the rest of the time. It seems to me that Transit could save $$$ by at least shutting down these underutilized stations during off peak hours. Does anyone use the 75th Avenue station at 3 a.m.??
I don't think MTA will redesign their system schedule for those five stations you've mentioned. Of course, ridership will be low during late nights, but you never know who will pop up to ride the train. Besides, 75th Av. might benefit people who are lazy to walk to Union Tpk. or 71-Continental.
BTW are the avenues in Queens lengthy?
Also, another way to count ridership is to get the record of the # of turns at the turnstiles at each segment of the day or so. (Is there a system like this?) If it were that low, I guess MTA would reconsider.
BTW are the avenues in Queens lengthy?
Avenues are supposed to be far apart, but sometimes the thoroughfares going in the direction of avenues are close together. In such case, the Avenues occur only every third thoroughfare, with the ones in the middle getting the names road and drive.
This announcement from the U.S. Department of Transportation:
FEDERAL TRANSIT ADMINISTRATOR ANNOUNCES $21 MILLION FOR NEW YORK: Jennifer L. Dorn, administrator of the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Federal Transit Administration, today announced three grants totaling $21 million in federal funding for public transportation projects in the state of New York. “The grants awarded today represent the Bush Administration’s commitment to transportation as a strategic investment that strengthens the economy, protects the environment and maximizes the freedom of mobility for all Americans,” Dorn said. Two grants will go to New York City’s Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA). A grant of $14.59 million will be used for design activities for the proposed East Side Access project. A second grant of $4.98 million will be used to fund preliminary engineering work on the proposed Second Avenue Subway. The East Side Access project will provide commuters on the Long Island Railroad (LIRR) direct access to the east side of Manhattan. It will relieve congestion at Penn Station, which is currently LIRR’s sole Manhattan stop, and will provide a one-seat ride to Grand Central Station. It will also provide access to the growing Long Island City business district. The proposed Second Avenue Subway project will alleviate severe overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue Line, which currently provides the only rapid transit service along the entire length of the east side of Manhattan. The project will reduce travel times and improve accessibility to the east side. The third grant, for $1.48 million, will go to the Westchester Department of Transportation for the construction of an intermodal transportation center in the city of New Rochelle. This center will link intercity bus service, local bus service, taxis, and a 900-space parking garage. The center also will include a small area of retail shops. This grant brings the federal investment in this important center to nearly $6 million.
Nice. $12M is pocket change, and if for planning only (hey, I coulda done dat for free) but hey its a start. Maybe if they get a go-getter a transit moses then maybe we can start something.
Elias
To install elevators at 179st is $6 million. Thats nothing. The north SAS will cost $12 BILLION! three decimal spots over!
Well, it's a start. The announcement does not necessarily reflect total funding for the fiscal year, and MTA will no doubt be getting money from different pots. This grant also does not reflect the addition 9/11 related aid, nor FEMA clean-up and restoration money (which will be used to pay for the South Ferry line's reconstruction).
I don't know if the "$12 Million" in your header is a typo, but NYC is getting neither $12 million nor $21 million. NYC is getting $4.98 million while the suburbs are getting $16.07 million. Typical.
"while the suburbs are getting $16.07 million. Typical."
Hey! What do you want, those are the REPUBLICANS!
If Democrats were in office.... They'd fritter it all away on something else!
: )
Elias
Actually, this grant is Hillary's doing, and is more typical of Democrats. Symbolic gestures on city schools and transportation. Big bucks for their health and social services non-profits, and the schools in the suburbs where they actually compete for votes.
To say this is nothing is an understatement. There are two problems here. The first as that the press still thinks anything with "illions" is it is a big number. The second problem is that a grant of 12 million for a bus system in a small tourist town (a new FTA emphasis) would replace the town's entire transit capital stock. They don't adjust for population.
With 8 million people in the city, they should have announced a grant of 50 cents per person. That would put it in perspective.
Enough to put out bids for contractors to build (not design).
Well, it's a step in the right direction. A baby step, granted, but still a step.
By the way, you close an <I> with a </I>, not another <I>.
- Lyle Goldman
For those of you who were interested in seeing the pictures I took on the March of Dimes Redbird Fantrip on May 26, those photos as well as plenty of other pictures of other cars from that trip, they are now online. Feel free to check them out!
Also, if anyone tried to view my site with Netscape in the past three weeks, they would have gotten a message saying that the site was not available for Netscape at the time. This was caused Netscape wanting a specific end tag while Internet Explorer worked around the problem. While I still reccommend that you use Internet Explorer to view my site, you can now use Netscape as well.
My URL is http://www.orenstransitpage.com.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
P.S. I only post updates on SubTalk on an extremely rare basis. To recieve notification of all my updates, join the update list on my site.
Today SEPTA anounced the planned purchase of 104 new Silverliner V cars to replace the 73 or so Silverliner II and III cars. This emphasizes the need for a SEPTA R3 Silverliner trip within the next month so please contace me if you are interested!
The St Louis "Lateliner" is another word for which Silverliner generation # ?
The St. Louie "Lefties" are Silverliner III's.
Just for clarification sake:
Silverliners and Comets are roughly the same, right? Except for who runs them (NJT vs. SEPTA)
Please correct me on this as needed.
Short answer...NO.
A Comet car are the standard NJT unpowered coach designation. Most comets are of the white painted, square body design and are equivalent to the MNRR/CDOT Shoreliner cars.
A Septa Silverliner I (since retired) and Silverliner II were built by Budd and vaguely look like the R32 with an RDC ends. They have a rounded all stainless steel body and stainless steel ends.
A Septa Silverliner III was built by St. Louis Car and looks similar to the I's and II's except for the fact that the cab is on the left vestabule, they have a painted carbon steel roof and have fiberglas upper number band on each end. The Silverliner III's are equivalent to the NJT Arrow I cars. The Arrow I's were SO bug prone that NJT had them all De-powered in the 1970's and they are now called the Comet IB cars, however they are really of the Arrow design.
A Septa Silverliner IV was built by GE starting in 1974 and they are basically the same as the NJT Arrow III cars except for the presence of a middle door on each car and different pantographs.
Does the SL III use the same Westinghouse propulsion system as the Arrow I did. IIRC, it was a stab at a thyristor based propulsion system, which is what ASEA was doing at the time. Of course, ASEA was talented at high power semiconductors (still is), Westinghouse...wasn't.
The Arrow I weighed in the order of 110,000 lbs - nice for an AC powered MU. I think the whole Silverliner and Arrows all varied between 100,000 and 130,000 lbs. Naturally, single cars and dynamic equipped ones weighed more, with the dual powered (11kv / 25kv 60hz or 11kv 25hz) SL IVs delivered to Reading the most - 130,000 lbs.
Ignitrons dominated - thyristors were used on the Arrow I and III, and i guess the SL IIIs also. I don't think any of them were very sucessful, and the Westinghouse propelled metroliners were real dogs too. Of course, ignitrons were dated by the late 70's, but worked better as long as they weren't flashing over or blowing up or whatnot (and they have a lot of fun failure modes).
I have 5 different colored GE rainbow books (Red - Arrow II, Green - SL IV, Blue - M1a, Orange - M-2, Brown - Arrow III). I'm not sure how many are left in the series....
Also notice that the Silverliner II's side windows (as well as the Silverliner IV's) are rounded (oval, sort of in the shape of a racetrack), and the Silverliner III's windows are more rectangular. That is another way of telling them apart if looking at them broadside. Also, the Silverliner IIs has a smooth strip above the windows, where it used to have "PENNSYLVANIA" or "READING COMPANY".
... within the next month ...
You mean within the next couple of years, right? They won't get delivered that fast!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My trip is w/in the next month.
My trip is w/in the next month.
I know... but the implication of your post was that if you didn't ride within the next month the old cars would all be gone. Just pulling your chain :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i heard about 1 year ago that septa is is now going get new Silverliner V car it don't say how many.
During the summer does the MTA reduce the Maximum speed on each line to prevent the tracks from being weared down so quickly?
And do they have a summer speed reduction for the Acela Express going at 150 mph?
I have never heard of such a thing. Heat causes tracks to expand - but rail design accounts for that.
I asked that because my cousin works for CSX Freight Train Operations and during the summer, the speed is reduced by 10 mph, because of the heat.
That's certainly possible. I wonder if track quality is relevant here. A lot of freight trackage in the East isn't as well put together as the NEC. Out west, though, you have nice, straight, first-class track on freight lines that could host an Acela if Amtrak ever decided to run the train there..
I doubt Amtrak will ever put the Acela out there in the west, 1)Money, Money, Money 2)The Line needs Overhead Wire which is also Money 3)The Acela only runs in the NEC because it' the busiest Line in the US.
OK, class, another lecture:
A lot of freight trackage in the East isn't as well put together as the NEC.
The Conrail main is at least as good as the NEC in terms of its track, if not better. Track is designed for different purposes. You will notice that NEC is all concrete ties and the majority of new transit systems have chosen concrete ties, whilst NS continues to renew their ties with new wooden ties. The reason for this is because wooden ties offer more "padding" for a passing train, which can be more important in freight than in passenger operations because the axle loads are heavy and track geometry isn't so vital. The reason HSR track is expensive to maintain is because it needs to be so precisely aligned that wooden ties simply won't do and the concrete tie offer less padding, which results in more rail wear and other problems, besides the need for more frequent tamping to ensure the track doesn't "creep" in the ballast.
Thus it doesn't make sense to say that freight track isn't as "well put together" as the NEC. NEC would suck for hauling unit coal trains over, because all the rail would wear out in maybe a year or two (depending on how many MGT you are trying to put down it).
Out west, though, you have nice, straight, first-class track on freight lines that could host an Acela if Amtrak ever decided to run the train there..
It is true to say that track is in general better in the West, but what you *really* mean to say there is that right-of-way alignments are a lot better in the West. The *track* isn't necessarily better. The Pennsy had better *track* than almost anybody else and much of today's Conrail *track* still dates from Pennsy years.
The limiting factor for a train's speed is not the number of curves or length of curves but the severity of curves (I am sure you knew this anyway). In the West, track can look like an angled bracket > whilst in the East Pennsy may have built it more like a round bracket ). Round brackets are faster, because the curve is "spread" out over a longer distance. That said, Santa Fe built some pretty good track out there. The UP Coast Line is a joke, however.
I doubt Amtrak will ever put the Acela out there in the west, 1)Money, Money, Money 2)The Line needs Overhead Wire which is also Money
We don't need to talk about $$ issues, that will fill a book.
3)The Acela only runs in the NEC because it' the busiest Line in the US.
Incorrect. The NEC was artificially made to look like the busiest line in the US, simply because it serves Washington. If you look at the USDOT's Table 6 Data (go to www.bts.gov and look under airline traffic data) you will find there are many city pairs that generate much more air traffic than the NEC. For example, in Texas, there are 1/2 hourly flights between Houston, Dallas-Ft Worth and San Antonio by Southwest Airlines, and in that triangle they carry more people than say between BOS, NYP and PHL. Similar situation exists in California, and possibly around Chicago. A little demand modelling work will tell you how much of this traffic can realistically be diverted by a high speed rail scheme and it's quite clear that a number of corridors in California, say between LAX and SAN and possibly even LAX and LAS, ridership levels could reach the level of the NEC if suitable investment comparable to the NEC was made. California DOT is currently thinking very hard about making the investment.
"Incorrect. The NEC was artificially made to look like the busiest line in the US, simply because it serves Washington. If you look at the USDOT's Table 6 Data (go to www.bts.gov and look under airline traffic data) you will find there are many city pairs that generate much more air traffic than the NEC. For example, in Texas, there are 1/2 hourly flights between Houston, Dallas-Ft Worth and San Antonio by Southwest Airlines, and in that triangle they carry more people than say between BOS, NYP and PHL. Similar situation exists in California, and possibly around Chicago. A little demand modelling work will tell you how much of this traffic can realistically be diverted by a high speed rail scheme and it's quite clear that a number of corridors in California, say between LAX and SAN and possibly even LAX and LAS, ridership levels could reach the level of the NEC if suitable investment comparable to the NEC was made. California DOT is currently thinking very hard about making the investment."
According to Amtrak Records, the NEC is the most busiest route and the NEC is also where the big money is, according to the records, amtrak gets most of its money from the NEC than in any other Corridor.
Just because it serves Washington doesn't make it look like the busiest. Amtrak gets most of it's customers from NYC (www.amtrak.com).
I think here we are compairing Apples to Frogs.
I think that if we look at pax carried (all modes) there are other corredors that have equal or greater numbers, and these *could* be rail corredors if they were developed.
You were looking at AMTK figures and AEM7 was looking at total movement figures (rail air and road).
Elias
According to Amtrak Records, the NEC is the most busiest route [on the current Amtrak system] and
I'll accept that, but...
the NEC is also where the big money is, according to the records,
So we're not counting capital costs?
amtrak gets most of its money from the NEC than in any other Corridor.
So what's this I hear about LAX-SAN getting almost as many riders as NYC-BOS and with a train that runs only at half the speed and capital investment some 10% of what was spent on the Acela scheme?
Just because it serves Washington doesn't make it look like the busiest.
And you do know why money was spent on the NEC in the late 70's, right? And you do know why supposedly DOT demonstration money for Maglev is getting spent in the Washington-Baltimore Corridor again, right? California is getting screwed over again by the corrupt people in DC. CA submitted their own Maglev proposal and it was rejected. Ho hum, I can't think why. They don't actually have an HSR corridor and would like one. Baltimore-Washington already has an HSR corridor. All of the surface transportation demonstration projects -- Metroliners, Turbotrain, then the NEC investment programme in the 1980s -- all of them in the Washington area.
AEM7
Thanks AEM7 for that piece of info, I did know something about CA trying to get a HSR Corridor running.
BNSF is installing tonnes of concrete ties on their main lines out west.
Yeah, can someone explain that to me? I know that they were putting in extra rubber padding between the ties and the rail, but in the West nothing rots. I don't understand the logic behind BNSF's concrete tie programme. Maybe they are trying to send a message that they are going to focus on high speed, low weight intermodal service? Pacific container trade is basically a volume trade.
There are many other kinds of ties: composites, steel ties, and hybrid (two concrete block separated by a gauge-iron type bar). I don't know enough about ties to do a detailed review though.
AEM7
actually concrete ties have been installd in many places in the West--one of the UP's upgrades of the ex-WP Feather River Canyon route for instance. As to 'rot' any Bay Area carpenter can tell you wood does rot in the West.
As to track "quality" the 'railfan buzz' always had ATSF at the top. While there are real engineerig differences between high speed passenger tuned tracks and tracks tuned for heavy coal drags, the RR's who had the best riding passenger trains, typically had fewer wrecks/derailments at least anecdotally. As to current operators--the PM numbers, and FRA imposed speed restrictions tell the tale.
In the west ties don't rot?
Did I hear that right?
How bout Seattle? A BNSF mainstay, less than 100 miles from one of the few Temperate Rainforests in the world, and also on the western (ie "wet") side of a major mountain range. Oh and the BNSF/Amtrak mainline north from Seattle to Everett, feeding into the Cascade Tunnel at Stevens Pass, runs right along Puget Sound and Elliot Bay.
While beatiful as all get out, think of the salt spray that comes off the tidal Puget Sound, and what that does to wood, not to mention the locomotives (Wonder if the Cascade Talgo F59PHIs are washed with freshwater after every run, or they are counting on frequent rain to do the job of cleaning out the sand, it will be interseting to see if they have corrosion problems).
Oh things rot there, slugs grow with the dimensions and frequency of bananas in florida, mold grows on anything and everything left exposed in a humid area, and Moss covers every tree that it can find, often in all the cardinal directions.
Actually here, on the Everett-Seattle main line, concrete ties make a heck of a lot of sense, both for the corrosion and rot factors that I have previously mentioned, but also because the traffic is generally of the light variety, Amtrak passenger trains, with the lightweight Talgos, BNSF merchant and Intermodal, and very very little heavy coal or ore movements. This means that the concrete tied track will last longer than on say, the Powder River Basin or something. BTW, Most of the Coal and such for the city comes by way of Portland on the UP and southern BNSF, supplying industries, like Boeing, along the Duamish River north of SeaTac.
The use of concrete ties on the railroads became almost a requirement a few years ago, when a runaway train accident happened out wes. The train lost its brakes and went down ahill at a high speed, but did not derail, thans to the use of concrete ties with pandrol clips - if wooden ties with spikes and fish plates were in place, the spikes would have pulled out and the train would have derailed, resulting in serious consequences. The train was carrying hazardous materials, I believe. When the investigation team found that to be the case, the recommendation for concrete ties became very strong, and the railroads felt that the longer lasting, rot proof, stable characteristics of the concrete ties more than made up for their expense.
I appreciate your helpful explanations.
Question: Florida East Coast Railway has a high-speed freight operation (79 mph) which has been very successful (mostly container and piggy-back freight). Would they be better off with concrete ties? I recall a "Trailer Train's" gross weight not exceeding a passenger train by much, on a per car basis...but correct me here if I'm wrong
You left out that all-electric propulsion is not necessary for the 'high-speed' that is generally used in the US. Bombardier is developing a gas-turbine Acela-type train set for use on non-electrified lines. This generation would be a significant improvement on the RTL-II sets that are supposed to be in use on Empire Corridor trains.
-Hank
all - electric propulsion is the only practical way to power high speed trains. the history of turbine railroad power is merely novelty items and marginally sucessful seml experimental trains
Actually, diesel-electric high speed trainsets have been extremely successful both in Germany and in Britain. For example, Intercity 125 sets were all diesel (top speed 143mph) and Germany has an ICE diesel-electric multiple unit which is rated for 225kph (or 140 mph).
Electric trains are nice, but not the be all and end all, as much as AEM7's might like to believe.
AEM7
They're Diesels, not Turbines. Diesel propulsion IS practical (100+mph E-unit powered passenger trains in the '40s)
I quote John J. Blair from an earlier post:
all - electric propulsion is the only practical way to power high speed trains.
I quote John J. Blair from the last post:
Diesel propulsion IS practical (100+mph E-unit powered passenger trains in the '40s)
Where the words yummy? You know, if you get good at it, you might even become as trustworthy as your cousin Anthony, who is currently residing at No.10 Downing St...
AEM7
Oops, I misspelt "were". I meant "Were the words yummy"
Too early in the mornin'
Tony and I ar not related, Alicia
Got Me AEM 8~>
Practical, yes, but not as efficient or cost-effective as electric propulsion. One electric unit can do the work of two-three diesel units, and with fewer moving parts to break down. Recall that the diesel engine's only purpose is to spin a generator - the engine itself is dead weight.
On lines which will not have catenaries, disel has historically been more efficient than gas-turbine powered trains (the gas turbines, which are turbojet engines hooked up to gearboxes, have been prone to frequent breakdowns, blade fouling, etc. and require more maintenance. I have heard they are quieter, though.
"On lines which will not have catenaries, disel has historically been more efficient than gas-turbine powered trains (the gas turbines, which are turbojet engines hooked up to gearboxes, have been prone to frequent breakdowns, blade fouling, etc. and require more maintenance. I have heard they are quieter, though.
"
Is that how gas turbines work. No wonder the have problems.
The turbine need only turn a generator, the rest of the gear remains the same.
Elias
Gas turbines have a higher horsepower-to-weight ratio than diesel engines, so a gas turbine locomotive is more powerful than a diesel locomotive. But it requires more maintenance, and sucks fuel like it's going out of style.
I suspect the real problem is the maintenance. Aircraft engines don't like too many take-off/landing cycles. Mount an aircraft engine on a train and every start and stop is a takeoff/landing cycle. Also a gas turbine is a high rpm machine, unlike the diesels which are like only 2,000 rpm on full throttle (about 800 rpm idle).
Maintenance on gas turbines is not a real issue, with the correct maintenance program in place. While it is true, aircraft engines are taxed during take-off/landing cycles due to transient temperature shifts; this would not be the case on an auxilary type gas turbine [apu, auxilary power unit] which would run at a constant rpm, approx.11,000 rpm and 580 centigrade for exhaust gas temperature. However fuel consumption would still be a problem
In the late 1950's, Krause-Maffei built gas turbine powered locos for freight railroads in the US. They were powerful and moved freight very well, but were withdrawn from service after their operators had to spend too much time cleaning Bunker C oil off the turbine blades, among other things.
I don't know what Amtrak's experience with their French-built turbotrains has been. Turbotrains have been in service with Amtrak on at least one line from NYC since the 1980's.
I don't know what Amtrak's experience with their French-built turbotrains has been.
Mediocre - maintenance costs were quite high. But now SuperSteel is going to reuse their shells in a remanufacturing project that should produce a trainset much better than the originals.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Diesel propulsion IS practical (100+mph E-unit powered passenger trains in the '40s) "
Heck... Even STEAM ENGINES could do that!
Now lets try 150 to 170 mph!
I'd have no problem with an on-board powerplant, but I also like the acceleration, control, and braking that powered axels throughtout the trainset will give you. I want strong dynamic brakes on my whole train.
The key to speed is not the powerplant, but the ability to stop it again safely.
Elias
Bombardier is making a gas-turbine train that's in the Acela Paint scheme but will not apart of the Acela service, I believe it will be called the Amtrak Turboliner.
Didn't Amtrak sue because of technical problems with the accelas?
There wasn't anything about the corriders. can you give me a direct link?
Aggregate traffic data for airline origin-destination pairs
well... i would belive anything negitive if it was about CSX.
Why Negative????
Amtrak drops the speed of all NEC trains to 80mph over a certain temperature. MN does the same thing, but because their catenary is not constant tension.
Get a clue, people.
(1) Speed reduction in hot weather has basically nothing to do with catenary, constant or variable tension.
(2) Variable tension catenary works by supporting the wire at so many places that it's pretty much impossible for the wire to go anywhere but stay where it is supposed to be. One of the reasons that constant tension is cheaper is because it reduces the number of supports needed. Ever tried bending a piece of Pennsy wire? It's rigid. When it expands, it sags a little, but because of the number of support points it has, the sagging is negligible.
(3) Constant tension works by allowing the wire to expand and compensate for it by allowing weights to sag at the terminating points. The reason Amtrak had problems when constant tension was first commissioned is because the European engineers calculated the tension wrong (probably due to temperature range issues), so the weights hit the ground.
(4) Speed reduction in hot summer weather has everything to do with track.
(5) Continuously welded rail (CWR) is held in place by a few things: pandrol clips to the ties, the ties to the intended geometry by weight and packing of the ballast.
(6) In CWR, when temperature rises, the expansion of rail occurs sideways and up/down (perpendicular to the direction of travel) rather than along the direction of travel.
(7) This expansion results in stresses within the rail along the direction of travel. In the winter, the steel experiences tensile stress, because it is being "stretched" longer than it wants to be. Steel is relatively stable under those conditions, except that a bad weld (or a cracked rail) may fracture. Thus, in extremely cold temperatures, operating speed is slowed to reduce the risk of a rail breakage. A high operating speed results in faster changes of stresses within the rail (under the wheel) and this increases the likelyhood of rail failing.
(8) In the summer, the steel experiences compressive stress, because it is being squeezed shorter than it wants to be. Just as when you have a pusher shoving a train, if the shoving is too hard, the train will buckle upwards or sideways, above a certain temperature CWR has an increased risk of "buckling" sideways or upwards, i.e. if the Pandrol clip could no longer hold it in position. Such buckling can occur under the wheel because again, a passing wheel causes stress changes which are likely to trigger buckling action.
(9) None of this applies on jointed rail territory, and I assume AcelaExpress2005 was talking about jointed rail (they would NOT have a 10mph restriction anywhere on CWR territory) thus that restriction is due to an entirely different reason. The only reason I can think of that would cause such a restriction is maybe the rail is too light for the traffic on it and the temperature makes the rail less brittle (thus more mallable) and are thus more likely to move under a load.
(10) Catenaries causes restrictions in high winds, not when it's hot.
[End Track 101]
AEM7
CWR?????????????? I said CSX Transportation, and they do have 10 mph Speed Reduction due to the heat and during the heat the Track wears down from all the weight of the Freight Train. Since the CSX has the restriction, I thought that maybe it applied to other Railway Sytems, including the NYC Subway System.
You do notice that freight trains are a lot heavier and a lot longer than passenger trains, especially in areas where freight trains move in a large volume. Compare it to a constant volume of 18-wheelers traveling down a highway. and a volume of automobiles. I don't think the weight difference between passenger and freight is that much, but you see that the roads are curved inwards according to where all of the trucks' wheels went.
The point is, railroads will make restrictions if they have to. I don't think NJT is a problem but according to other's posts, AMTRAK does have speed restrictions on heat waves.
How does the wheel-loading (on a freight train) compare to the wheel-loading on an 18-wheeler?
It is a comparison. I'm saying if you have a lot more weight on the rail (or road), it has more of a capability to be "morphed."
Coal cars are loaded to some 100 tonnes net = approx. 135 tonnes gross. Don't quote me on these figures because I always get my metric tons and U.S. short tons mixed up. I think 135 tonnes is 297,000 pounds, is this correct?
U.S. railroads calculate their axle loads on the basis of pounds, while I have always done them in tonnes, so I get confused. The British Rail limit is 25 tonnes. My understanding is that U.S. roads have long worked to about 35 tonnes, and the heavy axle load stuff that NS had been doing in the past five years were pushing on 38 tonnes. Let's see if that figures. 135 tonnes divided by 4 axles is 33.75 tonnes. So I guess coal cars aren't the heaviest on the system yet, or maybe the coal cars have grown to more than 135 tonnes and my figures are out of date.
Southern tried these "big boy" grain hoppers a while ago. Those also maxed out the axle loadings.
I don't know that much about trucks but I seem to recall something like 50,000 lbs is a very heavy truck, and the limit is somewhere around 75,000 lbs in most states (higher in some states that had better-than-Eisenhower standards for their interstates). That translates into about 34 tonnes distributed over four axles = 8.5 tonnes per axle. Intermodal containers have a structural net load capacity of somewhere around 45,000 lbs (20') and 60,000 lbs (40') so that 75,000 lbs number would seem to make sense. It would not surprise me if 53' containers are limited to some 70,000 lbs. The "long" edge of the containers are not very strong.
As an interesting aside, trucks are charged for their pavement damage according to the number of axles on the truck, and I think there are very-heavy aggregate trucks out there which needs extra axles to spread the load, but of course the truck design always uses the maximum permissible axle load (which actually increases pavement damage)...
Pavement thickness isn't a simple matter either, but I won't go into that here. Basically, some study has shown that if you make a substandard pavement to start with, it is much more expensive to go back and retro maintain it than to build a pavement thick enough to carry the load in the first place.
I would be surprised if the axle load of any highway-vehicle exceeded about 12 tonnes, even ones with special permit. For example, think about the 40-wheeler trailers that are used to carry railcars and locomotives. Locomotives weigh about 120 tonnes a piece, over 10 axles would be 12 tonnes per axle. And the DOT hisses and whines when you want to move a train like that.
AEM7
I thought that the gw of unit coal trains out here was around 140 tons. Mor coal c lighter cars.
Elias
Thank you. Very imformative post
If CSXhas a speed restriction, then it has nothing to do with the catenary, cause they don't use it.
CWR = Continious Welded Rail
Elias
About 20 years ago the company I worked for did weather consulting for AMTRAK. When the temperature went over 90, they either (1) sent out inspection trains or (2) slowed down the trains. The fear was expanding track in the extreme heat. I don't know if that's still practice.
It still is in practice with the CSX Freight Train Operation with slowing the Trains down 10 mph from their authorized speed.
Remember CSX has been #1 on the FRA's hit list for track related problems for the last couple years. SERIOUS track problems. Heat kinks on CWR (see recent ARK wreck with Auto Train), gauge problems, rail, both jointed and CWR becoming loose spikes, Pandol clips coming loose. The list goes on and on. Check the FRA's site for details.
Heat kinks on CWR (see recent AMTK wreck with Auto Train)
AFAKI, that was a fracture not a buckle. Although the NTSB may have revealed more. Wheel-rail interface issues are rarely just the track maintainer's fault though. Someone from NTSB would have measured the wheel flats on the AMTK train and on the merchandizer that went by just before it, I am sure.
gauge problems, rail, both jointed and CWR becoming loose spikes, Pandol clips coming loose.
That's the first I have heard of this. CSX weren't the best dispatchers, but I didn't know they were having track problems. It would be interesting to find out.
CSX has apparently been more successful than NS in implementing a heavy axle load programme however.
1. We are Americans not English. Get with the language. We don't use English spellings. Noah simplified it for us.
2. The Engineer of the Auto Train reported a severe kink as he dumped the brakes.
3. Like I said, check the FRA's site (www.fra.gov). They have their version of the Straight Dope.
id assume the AE's speed will be redouced due to the wires (which is wierd, because of the constant- tension there)
The Acela (and all Amtrak passenger trains) go slightly slower during the summer. Since the air conditioning uses alot of power, they either run the train slightly slower or use too much power and the train won't go anywhere. You choose which you want.
i know the tracks move more when its hot.maybe they do this so the acela won't derail
A cell phone report came in from my daughter from Woodlawn Station this afternoon. 7601-7610 were in one pocket. She was on a departing Redbird (she has very good taste!) and thus could not determine whether or not the new train was a put-in for service. Is this the beginning of the end for the 80 Redbirds on the 4? I know that the crews have been training on them.
If it was around 11:45 this morning it was a test train.
Can it be possible to build elevated tracks above existing MetroNorth, LIRR, ConRail, and Amtrak ROWs?
Think about it. Many rail lines primarily serve the purpose of moving freight or suburbanites. Within city limits, they underserve or don't serve at all the surrounding communities. The local "tracks" tend to be pretty desolate places, with strays, overgrown weeds, and garbage.
An el above an ROW would utilize the "airspace" and not conflict with commuter rail and freight transport. This would have a profound impact on the local communty. There would be NIMBYs (there are always NIMBYs), but not many. The only groups the MTA would have to contend with would be Amtrak and ConRail.
What do you think?
-Alex V.
Nice idea. There are multilevel ROWs in certain places for brief stretches (like "flyovers"), and they certainly exist underground in the subway and commuter rail.
There is a dedicated freight line in Philly (CSX I believe) which runs by 30th Street station but does not connect to, nor does it mix, with SEPTA's ROW or Amtrak's ROW.
There are examples of the BRT building elevated over its own surface rights-of-way and retaining the tracks below--Culver, West End, Lutheran Line, though much of this trackage was over streets not PROW.
The NIMBYs would have similar objections as over streets. I also believe you are mistaken that the MTA would only have to deal with the owning railroads. These rights-of-way are still secured by franchise, and the City or other municipality could object to unwanted building.
There are examples of the BRT building elevated over its own surface rights-of-way and retaining the tracks below--Culver, West End, Lutheran Line
Lutheran Line?
M east of Wyckoff.
It goes to the Lutheran Cemetery you know.
M east of Wyckoff
BRT traditionalist.
That's not it, it is east of Wyckoff. I don't think that the occupation has gone so far as to screw up cardinal directions outside of the father island.
By my map Metropolitan is almost as much north as it is east of Wyckoff, but OK.
There's something to be said for elevateds above ROW's. At least you wqouldn't have the problem of "ruining a street". The M line is sort of an example of this, and how well it works. The M line used to run on the ground on it's own ROW. When they elevated it, it kept it's own ROW, and trolly's ran underneath. The trollys left in the 50's and now under some spots they use the ROW under the el for parking. What's nice about the M train is that the el is not at all seen as a blight to the community because it doesnt run right over a street, darkening it, so no one is bothered by the el. It runs behind houses instead of infront of them. No street is ruined. So adding elevateds to highway medians, or over ROW's would be good in my opinion. The perfect ROW would be the lower Montauk branch of the LIRR in my opinion. You would have a subway right through an area that needs it, and you wouldn't mess up the NYA's freight operation.
That's a great idea!
The perfect ROW would be the lower Montauk branch of the LIRR in my opinion. You would have a subway right through an area that needs it, and you wouldn't mess up the NYA's freight operation.
Residents in Glendale and other neighborhoods along the lower Montauk went mental over a 1970's plan to use the line for subway service. Subway access would have made it too easy for those people to get to their 'hoods. While things aren't completely the same nowadays, I suspect there'd still be some opposition to your proposal. And just a few determined opponents can manipulate the system to kill off even the most useful proposals.
You are correct. I remember when the LIRR was doing the Harold reconstruction, and all the service for Hunterspoint ave went via the Montauk branch. The residents of Glendale literally laid on the tracks to try to stop it.....and that was only a temporary service! It's a shaame though because I really think it would be a good service, and much needed.
Cut off all public services. So if they want public services, they want a subway!
Sounds good, but what about obstructions like street bridges over the existing right-of way? The current Air Train right of way gets around the problem very well, but that may not be feasible for every situation. I would go along with tunnels below the surface in that if you go deep enough, you can avoid any structure or natural obstacle on the surface.
"I would go along with tunnels below the surface in that if you go deep enough, you can avoid any structure or natural obstacle on the surface."
But it is also true that if you go high enough you can avoid any structure or natural obstacle on the surface. And with modern concrete elevated structures it is easy and fairly unobtrusive.
Elias
Yes, but then there are those who would get on your case about obstruction of the scenery - that the structure would block the view of the sky, the parks, the trees, or whatever. Underground has no such problem, and thus that faction would have to shut up.
Just look west to Chicago. The 'L' lines built in the late 1890's and the early 1900's were all, except the Loop and Lake Street, built over alley's or private right-of-way.
The idea of an 'L' running along side your property may be intimidating at first, however, when you learn how much it has increased the value of your home (an asset), you will begin to like it.
I remember my aunt saying once that if the Frankford el stopped running (it always had 24 hour service until the 1990's) she wouldn't be able to sleep. My aunt and uncle lived near M St. & Kensington Ave (just before the el crossed the Pennsy mainline) and in the 1950's and 1960's those trains ran at a minimum of every 5 minutes - until owl service which was every 30 minutes. They never complained.
Today, building an elevated structure can incorporate all the devices that are used to 'soften' the noise made by an interstate highway.
So, what is the most traveled 'L' in Chicago, the Brown & Purple Lines, that run through the trendiest neighborhoods of Chicago. Are people complaining about he noise. No, they want more service.
It's time people stop bitching and start planning for the future. Nobody knows that the oil, and then gasoline supply, will run out some day.
Jim K.
Chicago
Nobody knows that the oil, and then gasoline supply, will run out some day.
In 200 years, some other power will be used.
But you're right, we should stay away from oil. We can't completely give up oil, but we should try to cut down on our reliance on the Middle East.
More Mass transit
More fuel hybrids
More natural gas heating (and vehicles)
More NUCLEAR POWER (NUCLEAR POWER FOREVER!!!)
More recycling
I agree about nuclear power, the problem is that most people fear what they don't understand. That and the fact that the first public use of nuclear energy was "The Bomb" If the first use of electricity was "The Chair" we'd still be reading by candlelight. Just my thoughts.
Actually once the oil barons will dig apart the world for oil and murder lots of people for the oil (kindda like drugs) will they know fossil fuels don't work!
More reseacrch into non-conventional power sources.
look at this google link on ZPV energy
The CTA Orange Line is almost entirely on 'excess' mainline ROW sometimes at grade sometimes rising above. The Cleveland Red Line was similarly built on RR ROW easements.
AHH, you can't power a UFO off of oil or oil derivative. The little green men learned hundreds of years ago that fossil fueles just aren't a smart thing.
Down in the Red Hook section of Brooklyn, a miracle is in the making. There, a tiny group of railfans are nearing approval to expand their fledgling streetcar museum into the very heart of downtown Brooklyn itself. When this comes to pass, it will serve not only to revitalize the area surrounding Borough Hall, it will also rekindle a long dormant interest in street railways throughout the city. Should this effort succeed, then it will not be surprising if streetcars make a major comeback throughout the New York metropolitan area. Such a development cannot help but be celebrated by railfans not only in New York, but across the nation for it will be a glorious happening indeed.
E_DOG
Old News
Really? Then why hasn't anybody mentioned it? I thought there were railfans here?
E_DOG
People talk about it all the time....Bob D is in charge of the project.
There was a big thread about it not too long ago.
Here is his URL: Brooklyn Historic Railway Association
Elias : )
It has been mentioned many times about Mr. Diamond's efforts.
Does anyone happen to know that the Typeface (font) that is used in the MTA Subway signs and cars (the Designations for the Routes, like the N, the R, the 4,5,6, etc. The Typeface in the colored cirle.
or even better, Has anyone ever seen a font that has these symbols in it? (the Line number inside a circle).
Thanks!
Bob
---------------------------
Bob Cooley
creativeDirector
netActiv Media, inc.
http://www.netActiv.com
The basic font is Helvetica Medium (going by the old Linotype weight.
Be aware that the MTA has applied for trademark status for certain of the symbols (A, F, 4, 7, IIRC) and may apply for others as well.
> Be aware that the MTA has applied for trademark status for certain of the symbols
> (A, F, 4, 7, IIRC) and may apply for others as well.
How can you copyright letters of the alphabet?
- Lyle Goldman
The MTA didn't do any such thing. They copyrighted the design utilizing the letters (and numbers) themselves. a number and letter, enclosed within a colored circle. Nothing wrong with it.
Mickey-D's has that M symbol, and they have it copyrighted, too.
The MYA isn't claiming copyright protection on the design. They are appropriately claiming trademark status. They have filed applications to trademark (IIRC) the A, F, 4 and 7 character-in-a-colored-circle dsigns.
What the difference between copyright and trademark, then???
Try to give a short answer--
Copyright covers the creation of works of original authorship. Can be print, pictures, music, art, other stuff, we most think of it in terms of writings and pictures.
Copyright is easy to get. Under new laws, what I'm writing now is automatically copyrighted, even without the © on it.
Copyright has many exceptions. You can't copyright facts, per se. If the final score of a public baseball game is 7-2, the baseball club can't sue you for publishing this fact.
You can't protect an invented name (or letters in colored circles) merely by publishing them with a copyright notice. This is well established. There is also an issue of fair use, which means that you can use parts of copyrighted works with violating the law according to a large number of factors. There are no bright dividing lines between fair use and infringement.
Trademarks are meant to protect words, logos and certain kinds of designs (sometimes even music) that are associated with a product or service used in commerce. Like the letters in a colored circle that the MTA is trying to trademark.
You can claim (but not necessatily get) a "common law" trademark by putting a TM or SM on your logo or please--e.g., "Subtalk, the forum of foamers(SM)"
The US Gummint (and other countries) will register your trademark, but (thinking of the U.S.) it's not easy. You have to file a formal application. You have to show that you're using the mark in commerce (you have a product or service identified by the mark), or that you intend to use it soon. The mark has to identify a particular category of goods or services. An examiner takes a first pass at giving an opinion as to whether your mark is even registrable. If you get past the examiner, your mark is published for opposition. That means that for a month (in some circumstances longer) others can send in arguments why you shouldn't get the mark.
If you do get a registration, you get all sorts of rights. In rare cases, your trademark can be pretty broad. Toys R Us demonstrated that the use of "R" in the ungrammatical context such as "Kids R Us", "Loons R Us" etc. is unique enough that they can (and will) go after anyone using "R" in this way.
I was trying to keep this short. The reason this is important to our discussions on this board is because many people believe that you can protect certain things, like names, by copyright, where they must be trademarks.
Ok, thanks for explaining it... I never thought the concept of copyrights and trademarks could go that far!
If the MTA had such a font, I think they would keep it private to protect it from being abused.
Greetings, all...
Just thought I'd take a quick mintute to check in and say hi. I'm at a Kinko's on Market Street in Center City, and since I'm paying by the minute on this computer, I'll make this quick:
My car made the trip without any trouble, and actually used less gas than I thought it would. Hopefully it will have a repeat performance on the way back.
In northern Indiana, I saw two CTA 2600-series cars on flatbed trucks being shipped back to Chicago from their rebuilding in Hornell, NY. Cool!
I took the PA Turnpike, and except for the construction, foul weather, narrow lanes, tight curves, and poor visibility, it was a great drive.
The parts of New Jersey I've seen so far are like a highway engineer's wet dream... Apparently every highway in the state is designed to prevent left-hand turns.
My interview was re-scheduled for Friday morning, so I spent most of Thursday riding the rails. I took: PATCO from Haddonfield to Center City, Broad Street Subway express to Fern Rock and back (what a kick-ass express run!!), R3 to Media, 101 trolley to 69th, MFL back to Center City, and PATCO back to Jersey. More in-depth report to follow.
Late last night I re-aquainted myself with Jim's Steaks on South Street... *drool* I think I like this town.
I did some driving around and stumbled upon the Girard Avenue trolley tracks. Cool!
My interview this morning went very well. I think the firm was interested in me, and I'd be very interested in working for them. They're located way down at the Philadelphia Naval Business Center, former site of the Philly Naval Shipyards where my father was stationed during Vietnam. The firm said they'd call me back next week.
I've been spending most of today driving around the city and exploring various neighborhoods, trying to find a suitable place to call home. South Jersey is a bit too suburban for my tastes, Media is probably a little too distant, but I love Germantown, Mt. Airy, and Manyunk.
Fairmount Park is incredible... I could spend days just exploring it.
My side trip to NYC tomorrow is still on. Whether I drive or take NJT will probably depend on the weather and my mood tomorrow morning, but either way, the meeting is still on for 2:00 PM on the shuttle platform at Times Square.
That's it for now... Watch this space for more details of my trip when I'm able to sit down at a computer without having to watch a clock.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
(Better get used to signing my name that way, huh?)
Fairmount Park, you could spend YEARS exploring it. It is the largest park located inside a city in the USA.
It also, until 1946, hosted the Fairmount Park Trolley, which was located completely inside the confines of the park.
The history of the Fairmount Park Trolley can be found in a book, long out of print, by Dr. Harold Cox.
Enjoy Philadelphia, I did for 45 years.
Jim K.
Chicago
"My interview was re-scheduled for Friday morning, so I spent most of Thursday riding the rails. I took: PATCO from Haddonfield to Center City, Broad Street Subway express to Fern Rock and back (what a kick-ass express run!!), R3 to Media, 101 trolley to 69th, MFL back to Center City, and PATCO back to Jersey. More in-depth report to follow. "
Why didn't you try to make contact with me? I took a round trip that day on PATCO and the MFL to get to my class at Penn. We probably passed eachother without realizing it.
Sounds like you did OK with the interview! Good luck!
Welcome to our fair city. I live in Exton, about 30 miles west of the center of Philly.
Chuck Greene
Hey, would you be interested in a SEPTA trip?
I can't really go anywhere for a while because of personal medical
problems in my family. Thanks for asking, though.
Chuck
Manayunk is cool. I lived there for two years. Great restaurants (expensive, though). It gets very noisy at night, though, with all the bars, and there's no parking, and the beer fairy leaves you presents on your front door. And the R6 only runs once an hour. You just missed the US biking championships.
Germantown: Land of large houses, historic neighborhoods and a mix of affluence and poverty. Bus service in Germantown is EXCELLENT in all directions, frequent, convenient. I live within walking distance of both the R7 (hourly service downtown, and a direct ride to Bucks County and Trenton), and the R8 (30 minute frequencies). I recommend it, esp. if you can afford to buy a house (price ranges from $115,000 to $300,000+.
Check out the local realtors.
"The parts of New Jersey I've seen so far are like a highway engineer's wet dream... Apparently every highway in the state is designed to prevent left-hand turns."
Yes, they are called "Jug Handles" You make a left by going right.
But what the heck, you already know to click on "Start" when you wnat to "shutdown"
Elias
I'll be unable to make the trip at 2:00 at the shuttle after all. Hope you guys have fun.
PATH wants to build new entrances for the Christopher street station, which is much needed from what I've seen. This station gets alot of usage, and the exits are usually clogged.
But some NIMBY's in the Village are in an uproar over this. They oppose the construction in their neighborhood. They held a march (saw it on the news) with all kinds of absolutely ridiculous signs. Some NIMBY's are really fanatics.
Hopefully the NIMBY's lose this battle.
The construction is not necessary. Once the PATH WTC station is rebuilt, ridership will go back to the previous, small, levels. All PATH is going to do is waste money and ruin a historic station.
Christopher Street was already crowded before the 25th of Fructidor.
25th of Fructidor
So that's when it happened.
In the year CCIX by the way.
Is there a rational explanation for this?
Not necessary? The assorted one-entrance PATH stations are disasters waiting to happen. Some are easier than others to fix - for example, re-opening the second entrance at Grove St. mostly involves ejecting the station cleaners from their smoking lounge at the east end and re-installing the steps to the street on the other side of Marin.
Christopher and 9th are relatively easy, given that there's no MTA station alongside them competing for space. Adding a second entrance is important for safety reasons. If they can shoehorn in ADA elevators as well, so much the better.
Note that the H&M was looking at additional entrances until they ran out of money - the second Grove entrance was closed as a cost-saving measure, for example.
But you know that they'll use cheap construction measures that will ruin the 1908 feel of the stations.
Like the TVs, ceramic floor tile, electronic announcements, and aluminum station signs don't do that already?
-Hank
If I wanted to be in a station in 1908, I wouldn't have been born in 1982.
"I wouldn't have been born in 1982. "
Oh MY what a young whippersnapper!
Like you had a choice in the matter?
-Hank
I wouldn't mind being born later (although I don't wish it), but I certainly would not want to have been born in the past.
The past is for books and museums. I can see preserving the past where practical, but it makes no sense to keep something around just because it's old.
Don't start complaining that I'm like one of those people from the 60s that wanted to pave over the past. I don't have a problem with things from the past that can be practical in the present.
For the amount of money they pay to live in the village, they have a right to be upset over it. Don't ruin a historic station and ruin some of the village's character-if you are gonna build a new exit, make it nondescript, like a subway entrance.
The proposed entrance at the east end of the Christopher street station is not an area with much character. I believe the real reason for the Nimby's there is that the rowdier bars are further west, and the PATH brings lots of rowdy kids from NJ looking to get drunk, and they'd like to keep those visitors west of Hudson St.
At 9th St, the block where the proposed entrance is planned is very historic. But again, in this case right now the rowdier kids mostly hang out on 8th St, and there is a fear of them moving onto the nice quiet block of Christopher between 6th Ave and 7th Ave., where the new entrance is proposed to be.
A gang of mentally disturbed protestors.
"A gang of mentally disturbed protestors."
Selfish, yes.
Mentally disturbed, not likely. They're just acting in their own economic self-interest.
That was for the press release and media.
All we need is someone to get killed during a rush hour fire because an evacuation couldn't occur in time. Or the station to get seriously damaged because with all the people fleeing for their lives the fire dept. couldn't get in.
And remember, if Christopher or 9th is seriously damaged and trains can't run, the 'NY' on the PATH logo will have to be scratched off!
Since PATH is in two states, do NIMBY's even matter?
"Since PATH is in two states, do NIMBY's even matter?"
If they file a suit in NY State court, and the court hits the PATH with a restraining order preventing them from doing construction, then yes they can matter. I don't think the PATH is exempt from NY State law.
PATH can only be sued by the Attorney General of a state or of the federal government.
Wish that would happen with the MTA. What law does PATH use for that to happen?
You can't sue an agency of another state.
When it was first announced I saw some greenwich village residents say they didn't want commuters walking down their quiet streets in the morning and evening -- they wanted to be a neighborhood, a villlage.
They already have the commuters. Right now they stand outside the Christopher St station in a long line waiting to enter the station.
Basically, shop owners and residents don't want more rambunctious out-of-town kids who spend money at bars, not their shops.
There's another major G.O. happening this weekend.
The D will only be running between 205th Street, the Bronx and 145th Street, Manhattan. During this time, all uptown C trains will diverted over the F line from West 4th Street in Manhattan to 34th Street/6th Avenue and then over the D line to 59th Street/Columbus Circle. These changes will be in effect from 5am to 11pm Saturday and Sunday.
It's unclear at this time whether the A will replace C running local between West 4th and 59th, nor is it clear what service will connect the Upper West Side with 6th Avenue going downtown.
I'll post more details as they become available.
Here's an update on the G.O. affecting the 6th and 8th Avenue Lines:
1. The A will operate normally between Canal Street and 59th Street in both directions.
2. The downtown C will operate normal between 168th and 59th Streets, then cross over to A3 track and run express between 59th and Canal Streets.
3. The E will run normally in both directions along 8th Avenue.
4. There is no direct service to 6th Avenue from 59th Street. Passengers going to 53rd Street/7th Avenue should take the downtown A or C to 42nd Street and cross over to the uptown platform for an uptown E. Passengers going to Rockefeller Center, 42nd Street/6th Avenue, or 34th Street/6th Avenue should take a downtown A or C to West 4th Street and change downstairs for an uptown F.
One other point of interest: there is no service in either direction between 50th Street and CPW. The E is the only line stopping at 50th. For northbound service from 50th, either take a NB E one stop and transfer across the platform to the NB C or take a SB E one stop and cross over to the NB A. For southbound service to 50th, take a SB A/C to 42nd and cross over to the NB E.
You are correct. Thanks for that addmission.
There is more G.O. happening this weekend
No Service on the N and W
Manhattan bound Q runs on the N
Brooklyn bound Q runs on the W
No trains running on the brooklyn bound N and Manhattan bound W.
Q skips Dekalb Ave
Shuttle Bus replace Q between Atlantic Ave and Prospect Park
No N service between Queensboro and 86 Brooklyn.
R Service rerouted over 63rd st tunnel between 57 Manhattan and 36 Queens
All Manhattan Broxn and Brooklyn bound 4 and 5 train run local throughout manhattan.
ALL 4 and 5 Train was terminate on the local track at the Brooklyn Bridge Station and passanger have get off transfer broolkyn bound 4 and 5 at the Express track.
No J train service between Crescent Street and Jamaica Center.
2 skips some station on the bronx.
Uptown C running on the F.
Both direction on the A and E service is normal.
Grand Shuttle has improve its arrival and departing schedule timming.
THIS IS ONE HECK OF A SERVICE DIVERSION FOR ONE WEEKEND.
You missed a few: SB J express Broadway Junction (Eastern Parkway) to Marcy; 2 terminates at Nereid; SB C runs express 59th-Canal; no D south of 145th; possibly a few others that don't come to mind immediately.
In other words, a good time was had by all!
I was about add that, but ur faster than me.
Also J terminates at crecent and a shuttle bus stops at J stops from crescent to 121, and then stops at jamaica van wyck
ExpressM covered that one.
Why Jamaica-Van Wyck and not Sutphin or Parsons/Archer, incidentally? Anybody know?
Because Jamaica-Van Wyck is closest to 121st Street. Continuing down Jamaica Avenue from 121st, you'll hit the Van Wyck Expressway where an entrance to the E line station is. Why continue the shuttle bus to Sutphin or Parsons when they can transfer to the E one or two stops (which makes no sense; why should people have to go underground to go two stops and have to come back upstairs? Just extend the bus to Parsons)?
No Service on the N and W
Does that mean Astoria had no service?
There was a shuttle to QBP labeled N.
You didn't hear the news? They tore down the line over the weekend. Apparently someone said it had outlived its usefulness.
ROTFLMAO
LOL................!
They can't "tear down" the Concourse D line, they'd have to fill it in. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
They could fill it in with the Astoria el. The el's three tracks would fit nicely over the subway's three tracks.
I believe he was talking about the Astoria Line.
- Lyle Goldman
LMAO LOL good one.
> All Manhattan Broxn and Brooklyn bound 4 and 5 train run local throughout manhattan.
> ALL 4 and 5 Train was terminate on the local track at the Brooklyn Bridge Station and
> passanger have get off transfer broolkyn bound 4 and 5 at the Express track.
Did that really happen? Why was there nothing about that on MTA's website?
- Lyle Goldman
This really did happen. There weren't even any printed signs at Brooklyn Bridge, only handwritten ones.
It must have been an emergency GO.
What irritates me about these GOs on the weekend is that when you listen to traffic reports they ALL say that mass transit is "operating on or close to schedule". Why can't they say that there are service diversions on some lines and tell people to visit the TA website for details on their particular lines. IMO it would save alot of aggravation. (I was aware of these GOs because I checked their website and I simply stayed away from the D train this weekend)
Also, what was the reason for this particular GO?
Peace,
ANDEE
I've e-mailed this suggestion to WNYC, urging them to give GO information as part of their hourly news items, especially on weekends. I recommend that anyone that thinks this is a good idea do the same. Here's their e-mail:
listenerservices@wnyc.org
Who knows? If enough people do it, they might actually consider it.
A good idea, but does the TA give this info to the media at all?
Peace,
ANDEE
They give it to everyone with Internet access. It's on their website.
- Lyle Goldman
IMO, the statement "all trains are on or close to schedule" is correct, scheduled GOs that is. I don't blame the media outlets, I believe that they are just parroting what the MTA tells them.
Peace,
ANDEE
The MTA provides GO information on their web site. Incidentally, here's the response from WNYC:
-- BEGIN WNYC RESPONSE
Dear Mr. Garcia,
Thank you for contacting WNYC.
The suggestion to broadcast MTA information is an excellent one! We all know how unpredictable subways are on the weekend. I will pass this comment to our Programming Department.
Thank you for taking the time to write to us here at WNYC.
Kind Regards,
Lorraine Mattox
WNYC Listener Services
-- END WNYC RESPONSE
Once again, I encourage subtalk users to e-mail WNYC about this issue. If they receive enough requests, they might actually do it. They can be reached at listenerservices@wnyc.org.
Is it true that if you weigh more than 250lbs, you can not legally ride the Acela because the tilting system is not designed for people weighing more than about 300lbs and can cause such people to feel dizzy and lose their balance while trying to walk up and down the train, so they will slide to one side?
Is this restriction ADA compliant?
Where the hell did you hear that from?????????
You're kidding, right? I've never done the Acela - the Turbos are very nice, thankyouverymuch ... but tilt cars were always based on a center of arc at the roofline. As long as gravity remains constant, whatever you weigh (unless approaching a few tons) shouldn't matter unless they're doing some dumbass airbag tricks with Windows XBox instead of a suspended car. Geez, even PULLMAN figured that one out.
I make people crazy on trains when I'm back with the geese. TA training did it - sea legs are EASY to acquire once you're able to FEEL your train. On the worst railbeds, I'm dancing up and down the aisle ... (on the 143 ride prior to it going into service with some friends over Kissmoose, my ability to stand up straight unless the train isn't moving was amply demonstrated) and people in their seats are falling out of them.
If this is true, I'd suggest FRA type qualification and then certification by the railroad ... send them damned Acela geese off to school car fer krissakes ... what do they want for their (insert ticket price here) anyway? To live forever?
But seriously, I'm amazed to hear such is possible. Time to let the HIGH bidder have a crack at it if this is the case. :)
Is it true that if you are more than 7' 6" tall, you cannot legally ride the NYCTA Subway, because you may bump your head in the walking passageways and in the train against parts of the train that may result in injury to your neck, or in severe cases, result in permanent damage to your motor system or death through decaptiation?
Is this restriction ADA compliant?
I have never seen such a rule! Where did you see it?
NYCRR 72.1016(b) ... "all persons entering the subway shall deflate their shoes before entering funway" ... it's the law! :)
So, if I understand you correctly, it would then be illegal for Hey Paul to board a train with Avid reader sitting on his shoulders !!!
Now is there a minimum height restriction?
So, if I understand you correctly, it would then be illegal for Hey Paul to board a train with Avid reader sitting on his shoulders
!!!
Now is there a minimum height restriction?
GEEZ! And I thought *I* was toasted after a 41 hour day (fourty-one, number right, we're doing code here and I'm hitting subtalk between the ten minute compiles of our corporate sausage) ...
Already decided by the Court of Appeals ... it would be illegal for Avid Reader entering a subway with Heypaul on his shoulders, however it would NOT be unlawful for Heypaul with Avid Reader on his shoulders. In addition to court review, and ALJ determined that Heypaul qualified for the "ride for free? Ride on your knee" policy determination as upheld in "Dragon clips v. McCoys" on the N train (c) 1989.
And yes, the minimum height restriction is based on height and speech impediment (based on this highly stereotypical gag) ...
A guy calls a horse rancher and says he's sending a friend over to look at a race horse he wants to buy. The rancher says, "How will I recognize him?"
"Easy, he's a midget with a speech impediment."
The midget shows up, and the rancher asks him if he's looking for a male or a female horse.
"A female horth." So he shows him a prized filly.
"Nithe lookin' horth. Can I thee her eyeth?"
So the rancher picks up the midget and he gets him eye to eye with the horse. After a few seconds he puts him down.
"Nithe eyeth, can I thee her earzth?"
He picks the little fella up again, and shows him the horse's ears. After a few seconds he puts him down again.
"Hmm, nithe earzth, can I thee her mouf?"
The rancher is gettin' a little impatient with having to lift the midget every time he asks a question, but he picks him up again and shows him the horse's mouth.
"Hmm, nithe mouf, can I thee her twat?"
Totally pissed off at this point, the rancher grabs him under his arm and jams the midget's head as far as he can up the horse's twat, then pulls him out and slams him on the ground.
The midget gets up, sputtering and coughing, "Perhapth I sthould rephrathe that. Uh.....can I thee her wun awound a widdle bit?"
Moo. Personal Darwinism! :)
Kevin, next time, after all that typing you should protect you hard work. Add (please do not delete) to the subject line.
Heh. You must have me confused with someone who CARES what people think of my opinion. Proves you're still a PUP, bro ... heh. You actually worried about that? :)
The secretary will disavow any knowledge of my snide comments. This thread will self-destruct in 5 seconds. Moooooooooooooo(click!)
Wow, it seems like everyone was "into the drink" last night...:)
Heh. Actually stoned from lack of sleep in my case. When we do software development here, it can go on for 30 hours or more until we get a good compile. Sorta like the rules for a token booth - nobody leaves until everybody proves out their drawer. So I sat here until we "cleared" ... and sat WAY too long. :)
Where do you get these Statements from?????? I doubt anyone 7'6" would get on a Subway Train anyway.
I have never seen such a rule! Where did you see it?
Yikes, it took me reading both of your threads, and remembering that you're not a total moron to realize that these are spoofs of the moronic questions that were being asked recently.
Sorry if I ruined the surprise, I would've emailed instead but there's no email address attached to your name.
First it was seeing R-142's in a busway in Pittsburgh, now this. This is not the way to become a comedian !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Why not? Hey Paul began his 'career' also making ridiculous posts. Then again, he never became a comedian either.
"Is it true that if you are more than 7' 6" tall"
No that was 6'7" tall, and applied to the R1-9s.
But what the heck, if you were that tall and you tried walking under one of dem fans, you wouldn't be that tall anymore, so they dropped that point.
Elias
The doors on japan's subays are 5 ft 8', and intirior celling is 6 ft. Heard that the newest generation (who had proper nutricion in their life) are having serious problums with Japan's various subways.
As some of you know I'm 6'8" tall, I hit my head in a lot of places. I never have gotten a ticket for being too tall.
Some stations rebuilds, even in the mezzaine I have to stoop over low.
I can't stand straight at the ends of cars and have to stoop to look out of the rail fan windows.
Oh and when I operate an R17, the door stop (for when the cab door opens inward) bangs me right in the middle of my farhead.
Guess I should get a ticket for that.
Is it true that if you are more than 3' wide, or if you are carrying a box more than 3' wide, you cannot legally ride the MBTA Green Lnie because of your potential to block ingress/egress routes if the train should catch fire? Is this restriction enforceable? Is that why bicycles are not allowed on the Green Line?
Ok now the Questions are getting stupid, these damn restrictions are ridiculous!
Heheheheheeee.......
"Ok now the Questions are getting stupid, these damn restrictions are ridiculous!"
You of all people are saying the questions are getting stupid? LOL!!
-Nick
Whats that supposed to mean?????????????
Umm, you've been criticized several times for asking the same questions over and over again, and also asking questions that can be answered by looking through the site and/or the archives. But it was only meant to be a joke, please don't take it personally. -Nick
I wasn't takin it personally, Don't Worry.
I would ask the same questions because if I'm not online for a day or two, I wouldn't see any responses to my questions because I thought the server deletes old messages after a day, but now I know how to go back for my responses that are maybe a day or two old.
Ok, good; I'm glad your learning how to use the board. :-) -Nick
If you are more than three feet wide, the green lion doesn't *want* you, he has a sensitive stomach, and gets upset if he over eats.
: ) Elias
This is regarding to the service on the E,F,G,R and V line. The Straphangers campaign don't like the V (Even though E ridership decreased from 114% to 94%) Here's the whole report.
>>In December 2001, the MTA made major changes in the E, F, G and V lines. For many, the new routes have been bad news, forcing bad choices among trains that are too crowded, too slow or too out of the way. This fact sheet explains the changes—and why transit officials need to rethink their plan. What's the history?
Five subway lines serve riders on what's called the Queens Boulevard line, which carries more than 600,000 daily weekday riders. There are two express lines—the E and F—and three locals, the G, R and V. For many years, this corridor has been overcrowded, as ridership grew and no new subway lines were added. In 1969, transit officials began work on a plan to relieve crowding and increase service, constructing a tunnel under the East River between Manhattan and Queens at 63rd Street. The original intention was to also build a new line across Queens, but that didn't happen; the proposed line was the victim of financial limits and community opposition. Instead, when the tunnel opened in 1989, the line only went one stop into Queens, earning it the nickname “the tunnel to nowhere.” In 1990, officials proposed building a 1,500 foot tunnel to connect the Queens Boulevard line with the 63rd Street tunnel. The project won federal funding and was completed in 2001 at a cost of $645 million. How were the E, F, G and V routes changed in December?
The highlights of route change—shown in detail at www.straphangers.org/v.html—include:
The F express no longer goes to the 53rd/Lexington Avenue, 53rd Street/Fifth Avenue and Queens Plaza stations, three highly used destinations. Instead, the F skirts the heart of Manhattans East Side business district, stopping instead at 63rd Street and Lexington Avenue.
The E and R routes were unchanged.
A new local V line runs from Forest Hills in Queens to the East Village in Manhattan, serving 53rd/Lex and Queens Plaza. The route is 12 to 15 minutes and 10 stops more than the E between Forest Hills and the East Side of Manhattan.
The Brooklyn-to-Queens G line was cut in half. It now terminates in Long Island City instead of Forest Hills. G riders must make an inconvenient transfer to crowded trains at the Court Square-23rd Street/Ely Avenue station. The G does run to Forest Hills on nights and weekends and trains on the line run more often, although trains have been shortened to only four cars in length.What’s wrong with the new routes?
The new routes offer many Queens Boulevard line riders poor choices: Those seeking the East Side business district can either pack onto crowded E expresses, or take a slow local V, or ride an F express to a Manhattan stop few want to go to.
The new V is unpopular: The V is operating at only 49% of capacity during peak hour. If New York City Transit were to follow its own guidelines, service would be cut drastically.
The V is slow: Riders aren't taking the V because its a local and too slow. So said 66% of those New York City Transit surveyed at the Roosevelt Avenue subway station in April 2002. Transit officials argue that there's only a five-minute difference in scheduled running time between the E and V going from Roosevelt Avenue to 53rd Street and Lexington Avenue. But that still adds up to nearly an hour of extra commuting time a week. Many of those riders already having long bus-to-subway daily rides and also find the many extra local stops inconvenient.
The new routes are providing only minimal relief of crowding: In January and February 2002, crowding on the E was still above capacity (116% and 104% respectively). Only in March did crowding fall below guidelines (96%), a month filled with holidays. In addition, there's above-guideline crowding on the E at Roosevelt Avenue in all but the two middle cars out of ten. That's because many riders want to be at either the front of the train (to get off near the escalators at the 53rd Street/Lexington Avenue Station) or the back of the train (to get off near the Madison Avenue exit at 53rd Street/Fifth Avenue Station). New York City Transits future plans call for a redesign of Roosevelt Avenue station to make people walk to the middle of the platform. But many will go back to where they want on the platform. Those that do not will just have an even longer commute, as they get on the back of the huge lines at the 53rd Street/Lexington Avenue and 53rd Street/Fifth Avenue stations. What are riders saying?
In January, we polled riders on the line on their opinion of the new routes. Out of 335 responses, nearly two-thirds rate the plan poor or fair. Overall, the ratings were: 38% poor, 27% fair, 25% good and 9% excellent. Here are some typical comments:
“Terrible, plain and simple. Much longer for me and E train is SUPER jammed now.” “Its been pretty bad. The V and F leave Roosevelt Avenue fairly empty and the E is packed.” “On average, my commute is now longer and more crowded, which I didn't think was possible.” “They not only shortened the length of the G route, there are less cars. This has led to more crowded cars and less comfortable rides.” “The G is more crowded, the E is packed. Hardly anyone is on the V.” “Friday night, 6pm, again the platform at 53/Lex was packed. I went down the escalator, there was no place to go, so I just turned around and went right back up again. Such a dangerous situation, which has only gotten worse since the V came along. Do we really have to wait for someone to get hurt before they do something about it?” “The whole V thing is ridiculous. Leaving Queens, the F is relatively empty since it now runs down a stupid route. No one wants the V since everyone is in a rush to get to work and doesn't want a local. It is nearly impossible to squeeze onto the E train since it is the only logical game in town.” Of the 34% giving good-to-excellent marks, some found that the new routing was more direct for them, such as the rider who wrote:“What really matters to me, is that the V train means that the F now takes the 63rd St tunnel. My home’ station is Roosevelt Island, and service is now much improved, in terms of frequency and predictability (if not seating room).” A West 4th Street-to-Rockefeller Center rider wrote: “The V train has been a pleasure. Its empty.”
What should be done?
The Straphangers Campaign appreciates that New York City Transit feels it is doing its best in the absence of what's really needed: a new subway line through Queens. But we respectfully disagree with offering riders poor choices.
We support changing the plan, so that the F express would go to 53rd Street and Lexington Avenue and the V local would go through the 63rd Street tunnel. Transits prediction that this “flip” would “not reduce crowding on express trains as effectively as the current plan.” But this routing would be providing its riders with the service that the large majority of riders on the line want.
For more information: straphangers@nypirg.org or (212) 349-6460
EFGV facts | Take our poll! | E, F, G, and V rerouting info | Take action!
News articles: Daily News | New York Times | Goth Gazette
www.straphangers.org | www.nypirg.org <<
In my opinion ridership is low because people are stupid. Instead of taking the extra time to sit on a nice cozy train they would rather stand up on a hot and sweaty train to get to work faster. Even though I don't ride on the Queens Blvd. line if I did I would take the time and sit on a nice V train and make fun of the Idiots who would rather stand up on the E train. Unless you get off at a stop accessible by an E train what's wrong with the V?
The last few times I've been on the V it has been more crowded. Straphangers group always looks for bad stuff to say about the MTA. Part of the reason I never visit their site or message board at all.
The V is a great idea, it maximizes use of the Queens Blvd setup. And it IS catching on. Straphangers group will always complain about subway service, even if there's a train every 30 seconds. :-0
>>>Part of the reason I never visit their site or message board at all.<<<
Whaddya mean?!?! I've seen you post at straphangers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not in a long time.
That is hardly "never".
Peace,
ANDEE
I think "creature of habit" is a better way to descript the riders on the QB branch. Using the word "stupid" is inflamatory and IMHO, it would be wiser to avoid it. People are used to taking the express, even if, many times, that choice actually makes for a longer trip (the time lost waiting on the platform is often more that the time saved on the express run). Express runs in reality do not save much time over the local. I believe I read on this board that the CPW express (the longest on the system?)run saves something like 6 minutes. My experience on that run shows me that due to timers and the merging of lines, the express saves even less time.
You're off by a factor of 2. The CPW express saves three minutes. That's it. Time it yourself. (That's easy enough to do. Wait at 59th until a local and an express show up together. Get on the express. Check the time when the doors open at 125th. Get off and wait for the local. Check the time and subtract.)
Straphangers claims the V takes 12-15 minutes longer than the E to get from Continental to Queens Plaza. The official timetable claims it takes 7-8 minutes. I'll take the timetable's word. It's only ten local stops; how could they add 12-15 minutes?
Continental to Queens Plaza is 12 minutes on the express - or was for as long as I can remember until I stopped riding it last year.
Never timed the local, but if it takes 2 mins per stop as do most other lines, 12 stops is 24 minutes, hence 12 minutes difference.
Stops at local stations packed close together with no major delays to get people on and off the trains are usually considerably less than 2 minutes apart. On CPW it's more like 90 seconds on average from 72nd north, even in rush hour. I've never timed it on QB.
The question is not how long it takes per stop -- that depends on how far apart the stops are, and the express has to travel that distance also.
The question is how much time is lost by coming to a stop, opening the doors, closing the doors, and getting back up to speed.
The answer is about 30 seconds. The official timetables back me up on that. See for yourself.
The official timetables show a local-express differential on Queens Boulevard of about 7 minutes. That's it. The local takes about 19 minutes. Go out there and time it for yourself.
Incidentally, the scheduled times are just about exactly the same on the Bronx IND -- 12 minutes for the express from BPB to 145th, 19 minutes for the local. Otherwise, the greatest time savings on an IND express is 4 minutes, from Hoyt to Euclid. (Yes, that's all.)
Other notable express runs are 96th to Chambers (8 minutes), 125th to Brooklyn Bridge (9 minutes), Main to Queensboro Plaza (6 minutes), Manhattan Bridge vs. Montague Tunnel from DeKalb to Canal (7 minutes), and Prospect Park to Brighton Beach (6 minutes). All other express runs save 5 minutes or less.
All my times are approximations from the official TA timetables, posted for all to see.
You have no right to call people stupid just because they choose the E over the V. Even more amazing, you say it when you haven't ridden on the Queens Blvd. lines.
It may seem stupid to you that they do that, however you have no given right to say that they are. They may see the situation in an entirely different light. The V is not necessarily a good thing to everybody. Look at what it caused to G riders. Shorter trains, and a shorter route. The MTA had to sacrifice the service of one boro for another. That shouldn't have to happen.
he has a right to call them stupid, although that doesnt mean he should, but he still can
he has every right to call them stupid because thats exactly what they are even i say that their brains gradually shrunk as they got older or they were born without one.they have no common sense at all.I've been up there many times already and have seen this stupidity.To them life is a rush so they toss the V train aside like its garbage.They rather relax only at thier homes instead of starting their relaxation on the train even if it takes a few mintues longer.I know its a long hard day at work for everyone but the best thing to enjoy after work is nice relaxation on your commute home.unfortuantely it seems they dont give a damn about it.even in the morning when they most likely wake up very early and could use a small nap on the train.the residents along that line need to learn some common sense and start to enjoy a good relaxing ride on a crowdless train with plenty of seats to choose from.because the fact is,in life,nothing beats a smooth relaxing ride anywhere you go.and i think that applies everywhere.
What justifies you to say they are stupid because that's exactly what they are, in your opinion. That is not right. I was wrong before about saying anything they want. Though they aren't right all the time. Not only that, but you're judging what they do on your standards. Thery may have to deal with different things than you do, get somewhere else quick or do things in a different manner. Just because they are in the fast lane doesn't mean they're dumb.
life is not a rush,it should never be a rush,and those people treat it that way.getting someplace quick?FOR WHAT!? its like if they dont get where they're going fast,satan is gonna burn em alive or something.thats how ridiculous it is.relaxation man,and comfortness are 2 key things to a smooth well lived life.call me crazy but,im being honest here,they REALLY need to take it easy and enjoy being comfortable,being in a rush and getting pushed around is not the way to go.yet thats what they go through everyday over there and its like they dont give a damn about it.rush,feh ridiculous.
That's totally true, when I lived in Park Slope in the late 80's and worked near 34th Street in Manhattan, I had my choice between the F, the D, the N and R, the M, and I would almost always take the local trains home, so I could get a seat and relax and avoid the crush of the crowd.
NOW, there's a smart person.
Peace,
ANDEE
While I'm not taking sides, I'd just like to point out that from my experiences, the R can be very crowded below Pacific St in the rush.
It seems to mee that The Straphangers report don't know a thing their talking about. They're just using the V to trash the MTA once more.
And how dare you call the people who choose the E over the V stupid. You don't ride the Queens Blvd line so how you can call them stupid.
Blah, blah, blah, tell the Straphangers Campaign to build and run their own subway and let us know how it went...
as a member of a similar group --Rescue Muni (.org)-- I disagree. While a rider advocacy group may not always be perfect, the idea is basicly sound. In turn, if you don't like the survey results quoted, then maybe in the same spirit, YOU should do a competing survey. If you ask the same questions in the same manner and get different resulrs, I'll be interested. They did this legwork...
"If you ask the same questions in the same manner "
Which of course *is* the problem. The construction of the questions, their setting, and whom they are asked of and how has too much to do with the results that the survey tool is open to attack and question.
If you ask the questions at Queensboro Plaza or on 53rd Street or of (E) train passengers, then you will never find out how much the (F) train riders like it.
A good survey needs controls to get at the kernal of the issue.
And even then a good survey has problems, and if the authors of the survey do not acknowledge their own short comings then it can hardly be considered to be a good survey or adequate research.
Elias
indeed I am aware of how to skew surveys. That said I am annoyed by the dissing of rider advocates on this board. Transit will never be perfect, and one would like to assume that the management of public transit agencies always strive for the best possible service within the constraints of chronic underfunding. Still, it is the case that sometimes the service deployment is mistaken (KK train anyone?) or that the decision benefits one group at the expense of others. Also, as pointed out in other situations ridership patterns are fluid--the Ravenswood (Brown Line) was one of CTA's weakest routes when I lived in Chicago in the early sixties. Now it is having platforms lengthened.
As to the Queens Blvd fiasco, it may be insoluble given the way the tracks were configured. The grossly expensive 1500 foot tunnel apparently "blocks" full G service, three tunnels from Man. feeding into only four tracks is a bad plan even with perfect timing. If you assume every other train from 60th must interleaf with something from 63rd, and all 53 street trains head for the express tracks, that at least reduces 'merging' delays. As we see, that leaves no room for the G and constrains what goes to 53rd during rush hour maxed out TPH times. Clearly it would be rider useful if, 1, we could see 11car trains again, and 2. ingress/egress capacity and speed @ 53rd/Lex were increased. So write YOUR Congresspeople demanding more FTA bucks for NYCT.
"So write YOUR Congresspeople demanding more FTA bucks for NYCT."
Well trade you some FARM SUBSIDIES for some TRANSIT BUCKS.
Yes, I agree with you that we ought not diss the straphangers as if we were defending the MTA and then turn like a snarley cat and diss the MTA ourselves. Clearly if you want to have the best transit you can have, you listen to and learn from all and then figgure out how to make the system do that if it can.
You mention merging 60th street trains in with the QBvd trains, and you also need to remember that they must also merge in with the Astoria Trains (unless E Dog gets to pull that line down).
I *have* a plan to fix these 'little' things: Making the Crooked Ways Straight...
: ) Elias
I love that site, Elias... How long did it take you to set that up?
Do you mean the maps, or the whole website.
The maps are very fast to make. I use Microsoft's Streets and Trips 2002. The have all of the tools for drawing lines and stuff, and you can save each map that you create as a separate document. You can zoom in and out, you can cut and paste lines from one map to the next. I made a template map with the current routes on it, and then I draw my new creations on it.
Microsoft's maps are copyrighted, but the license that comes with the product says that I may use them for non-profit purposes or on my non-profit website, provided that I keep their copyright notice in tact. If I select a view of the map, and click on 'copy' it will automatically place that notice in the corner of the map. I paste it into a photo program and save it as a .gif (much smaller and clearer than a .jpg for this purpose) and drop it into my webpage.
I use Adobe GoLive 6.0 as my html processor (any will do) and since one of my things here at the abbey is to build an manage our web page, this little site is no big deal. I am using tripod as my free web host. Geocities was far too restrictive in bandwidth to be of any value. While I would never come close to using up my bandwidth there, it is prorated to the minute, so if I would post an idea here, and it had many gifs or other pictures on it, I would quickly exceed the per minute bandwidth that they have set.
Oh well, now that it is owned by Yahoo! there is no need to use that any more.
Elias
Thanks for taking your time for explaining to me. I wondering why those maps were so intricate. I guess I was thinking wrong when I though you were using paint!
"That said I am annoyed by the dissing of rider advocates on this board."
If the Straphangers Campaign uses extremely faulty logic to reach its conclusions, it's very fair to complain.
They do a lot of good things, but in this case they are ignoring the extensive evidence that the V train as is helps far more people than it hurts. Their proposed realignment would be a net disadvantage, hurting far more people than it helps.
Of course the real solution is better transit, but meanwhile the Straphangers Campaign is giving NYCT a hard time for doing the best they can with the dollars they have.
Let them focus on the ghastly transit service in Nassau county, that is something to complain about!
Well, the surveyor's methods are questionable.
Not only that, the Straphangers underestimate Queens Blvd. ridership. It is 900,000 a day.
The F train does not leave Roosevelt Av empty. I'm not saying the Straphangers made up that quote. But they obviously have an axe to grind, and so will not present any viewpoints contrary to their own.
I don't see the problem if people want the E over the V. Maybe they like the crowding to save time.
When going home, whenever possible, I will try to get the Diamond-Q over the Circle-Q, even if the first one is incredibly crowded. I don't care, I don't mind standing in the afternoon and evening, and that's when I'm most awake and most energetic.
In the morning, I will almost always take the Circle-Q to get a nice comfortable seat and sleep a little longer.
The V is working. Even if many people avoid the V because it's slower, it does offer seats to many of those that want them, and thus a larger number of people are satisfied.
>>>>In my opinion ridership is low because people are stupid. Instead of taking the extra time to sit on a nice
cozy train they would rather stand up on a hot and sweaty train to get to work faster. Even though I don't
ride on the Queens Blvd. line if I did I would take the time and sit on a nice V train and make fun of the
Idiots who would rather stand up on the E train. <<<<
I fully concur.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I beg to differ. The theory is that the operating agency should look at the destination pair volumes and run service accordingly. Thus if a majority of outer F line roders work around 53RD the F should go there. Its not that a one seat ride is a God given right--not at all, but it is the best use of cars/trackage.
I courteously disagree with those who seek to spend more time en route just because the slower route is more comfortable.
Any time savings en route is time in my hands, not in the MTA's. How much time over a week does that five minutes each way add up to? 50 minutes a week. 50 minutes extra to be smelling the roses, spending that time with your family, getting more work accomplished, or what have you. I would rather spend an extra five minutes of comfort in an air-conditioned office, bedroom, or kitchen than in a subway car.
Even one with a railfan window?
:0)
People can make their own decisions about time vs. comfort. But the key point is that any other alignment of trains (except maybe some adjustment to add a few more Es and remove some Fs) is just going to produce a net result of more discomfort, not less.
The Straphangers' proposal to run the V via 63rd will help some people but hurt more.
Agreed. The Straphangers are responding to a small but vocal minority of riders who want a voice. This does not mean the TA should take any action.
My proposal is to spilt the QB local, with the V running express from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza and the R running express from 71st Street to Roosevelt. It just about makes it if the timing is perfect and you cut the number of trains to eight per hour. And it takes the incentive to switch to the E away, since the V would run no-stop from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza.
Rebuilt the old Winfield Branch to allow the R to relay at Roosevelt out of the way, and you could run a 3rd express on the local with 10 tph in both segments.
I assume you would run this as a "skip-stop" express on the local track. That might work OK, but riders in NY are fond of cursing at trains as they pass by without stopping, even though the plan works to address their concerns.
I like it. Perhaps MTA would consider it. Of course, since MTA runs "skip-stop" trains at slower speeds than express trains, the time savings would be a bit less than on the express track.
(I assume you would run this as a "skip-stop" express on the local track. That might work OK, but riders in NY are fond of
cursing at trains as they pass by without stopping, even though the plan works to address their concerns. I like it. Perhaps MTA would consider it. Of course, since MTA runs "skip-stop" trains at slower speeds than express trains, the time savings would be a bit less than on the express track.)
I considered skip stop. But with skip stop, riders would still get there faster on the express from Roosevelt.
My idea copied a pattern from years ago on the Canarsie Line, as described by (I think) Ed Alfonsin, with express service on a two track line. The "local" would lay up on the pocket track beyond Myrtle. The "express" would battery run from there to Manhattan. The local would follow directly behind, making all local stops. By the time it reached Manhattan, the local would be barely ahead of the next express, but by then it would be in the terminal The pattern would be reversed on the way out.
There is no pocket track on the QB line -- though there could be, using the provision for the Winfield Branch and a little capital investment. So the R "local" would run express from 71st to Roosevelt, arriving one minute behind the V "express" which had been picking up passengers from 71st to Roosevelt. The V would battery-run from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza -- there would be no incentive to switch to the E since you'd have three expresses from there. Meanwhile, the following R would pick up passengers west of Roosevelt.
You'd have to cut down to (I think) seven or eight trains an hour, and have exact timing, for it to work -- I have a spreadsheet somewhere. But if these trains are as empty as the Straphangers say, that shouldn't be a problem. With a turnaround at Roosevelt, you could run 10 and 10, just as you do today.
That sounds like a good way to shaft the local passengers.
Anybody going from a local station east of Roosevelt to the Broadway line would have to first wait specifically for a V and then transfer to an R at Roosevelt or Queens Plaza. Anyone going from a local station west of Roosevelt to the 6th Avenue line, the 8th Avenue line, or to 53rd Street would have to first wait specifically for an R and then transfer to the E or V at Queens Plaza. Anyone going from a local station east of Roosevelt to a local station west of Roosevelt would have to first wait specifically for a V and then transfer to an R at Roosevelt.
Besides, there's little point. On other lines, people traveling between express stations often take the local if it shows up first, and they often reach their destinations sooner as a result. Anyone boading at Continental or Roosevelt and going to QP, 23-Ely, Lex, or 5th has that option today. I see no reason to force local passengers to wait twice as long for a train so that express passengers don't have to figure out how to ride the subway like all other New Yorkers do.
(Besides, there's little point.)
The point is to "give the people what they want," whether it makes sense or not. They seem to want three expresses and a local, of the press is to be believed, and this is a way to give it to them. As one of the Eds (Sachs? Alfonsin?) was fond of pointing out, expresses are preferred even with little in time savings if they substitute a smooth ride for stop-start jerking on your insides.
Those between 71st and Roosevelt would ride faster after Roosevelt, but yes everyone would wait longer, and those traveling between local stops east and west of Roosevelt would have to transfer. But if people didn't like it, you could always go back to the current service.
The point is to "give the people what they want," whether it makes sense or not.
It's impossible to give all the people what they want. The best a mass transit system can do is to meet everyone halfway. The current service plan does that.
They seem to want three expresses and a local, of the press is to be believed, and this is a way to give it to them.
If you help nine people and hurt one, the cries of the one will be louder than the cheers of the nine.
The press goes after the cries, not the cheers. The Daily News demonstrated its agenda by printing photographs of a crowded F and an empty V -- on the southbound platform at West 4th.
Where did the press conduct its interviews? Of course, nearly everyone waiting in the morning rush on the inbound platforms at Continental and Roosevelt would prefer more express service -- and time your interview for just after a local pulls out and all that's left are the express die-hards. But what about the ten local stations? Did the interviewers venture to any of them?
As one of the Eds (Sachs? Alfonsin?) was fond of pointing out, expresses are preferred even with little in time savings if they substitute a smooth ride for stop-start jerking on your insides.
Those who have strong preferences of that nature are best advised to avoid mass transit. Do you think the local passengers appreciate standing twice as long on their hot platforms so that others can have a smooth ride?
I was working at Continental and some middle aged guy missed the E then started yelling at me that half the service on the line got cut and then insisted on waiting 15 min for an E instead of sitting on the V across the plat. After 30 he moved to the C/R position to bother the incoming F c/r.
And that is how they see it that half the service got cut on the line.
that goes to show how stupid they really are.
In fairness, he shouldn't have had to wait more than 8 minutes for an E at any time when a V is sitting there, so it wasn't such a dumb decision.
It was the last or one of the last V's so headways were starting to get up there.
An interesting idea - except that the empty V is a myth. They may not be packed, but they are carrying a lot of riders.
Skip stop would only work if both trains went to the same trunk line in Manhattan. Since the 1 and 9 and J and Z both serve the same trunks, you will have a one seat ride. Unless you do some changes, the R and V can not do skip stop since not everyone at a single station wants to go to Broadway or 6th Avenue.
You are correct - of course you can always get off the train at Queens Plaza and switch over...
Please don't use the 1 and 9 as an example of skip stop "working". As disussed on a few other threads, there are numerous well reasoned arguements against the 1/9 skipstop and I have yet to see even one arguement (valid or not, sane or insame) in favor of skip stop on the 1/9. J/Z may be a different story as there are enough stops acutally skipped to give some validity.
"I have yet to see even one arguement (valid or not, sane or insame) in favor of skip stop on the 1/9. J/Z may be a different story as there are enough stops acutally skipped to give some validity."
I can give you one. If a majority of riders on the Seventh Av IRT who use the 1 and 9 in the Bronx support the continued use of the skip-stop service, that means it has accomplished something well enough to make a difference in the commute - therefore it should be resumed, because MTA's riders want it that way.
If the skip-stop really doesn't work well, and riders want it abandoned, so be it.
Rider complaints forced the abandonment of express service on the Queens Blvd line east of Union Turnpike. Riders could ask the MTA to abandon the J/Z skip-stop. But they don't.
I can give you one. If a majority of riders on the Seventh Av IRT who use the 1 and 9 in the Bronx support the continued use of the skip-stop service, that means it has accomplished something well enough to make a difference in the commute - therefore it should be resumed, because MTA's riders want it that way.
Ron, I've done an objective analysis of skip-stop on the 1/9 (which, BTW, is mostly in Manhattan, not in the Bronx). My conclusion, weighing as much as possible in favor of skip-stop, was that the average passenger loses 12 seconds due to skip-stop. (If waiting on a platform is treated as 1.5 times as onerous as waiting on a train -- not unreasonable, as platforms don't have many seats and aren't climate-controlled -- that number shoots up to 41 adjusted seconds.) Even if the average passenger doesn't realize it, skip-stop on the 1/9 hurts by any objective analysis, unless some passengers are more important than others.
Your analysis may well be correct (I am not in a position to duplicate your results), but as we both know, the public makes demands based on perception. Even after they are educated otherwise, they may cling to their beliefs.
The 1 line from the Bronx (you are right;, the effect is mostly in Manhattan)is long enough prior to the merge with the 2 and 3 so that a true express service (peak direction, at least)might have been useful.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the line does have three tracks. Alas, island platforms would have to built and tracks moved in order to replicate the kind of service you get on the 7. Not likely anytime soon.
Your analysis may well be correct (I am not in a position to duplicate your results), but as we both know, the public makes demands based on perception. Even after they are educated otherwise, they may cling to their beliefs.
But should the TA run trains based on the public's mistaken perception of what's best or should the TA run trains based on what's actually best?
(You could duplicate my results -- all my information comes from the TA's published timetables and from SubTalk posts from last year. I can email you a copy of the August 2001 1/9 timetable if you're interested.)
The 1 line from the Bronx (you are right;, the effect is mostly in Manhattan)is long enough prior to the merge with the 2 and 3 so that a true express service (peak direction, at least)might have been useful.
Perhaps, but I'm not so sure. Unlike most other lines with peak direction express service, the 1 doesn't have a major traffic generator at its far end. For the most part, ridership is higher closer in.
Here are the stations north of 96th, excluding 168th, sorted by their 1999 passenger counts (in ascending order): 215, 238, 225, 207, 181, 242, Dyckman, 191, 125, 145, 231, 157, 103, 137, 116, 110. The busiest has 9 times the traffic of the least busy.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the line does have three tracks. Alas, island platforms would have to built and tracks moved in order to replicate the kind of service you get on the 7. Not likely anytime soon.
You're half right. There are three tracks from south of 103rd to north of 145th and from north of Dyckman to the end of the line. There are only two tracks between 157th and Dyckman. And, as you imply, there are no express stations. Keeping in mind that the line goes from standard subway to arch viaduct to deep tunnel to standard el in a four-mile span, good luck changing that. There could be express service running nonstop between 96th and 137th, but the intermediate stops couldn't afford to lose half their service -- they're just too busy.
No, what needs to be implemented is a major increase in overall service, with some trains terminating at 137th or Dyckman so as not to overload the terminal at 242nd. As busy as some of the stations north of 96th are, the local stations between 96th and 42nd are even busier -- much busier. (In 1999, more passengers used the local stations between 96th and 42nd, excluding 59th, than used the entire line north of 137th.)
Shouldn't the 242nd Street terminal have increased capacity then? Broadway is quite wide at that point; there is plenty of room on the Van Cortlandt Park side. A three or even four track terminal station appears feasible.
The space is definitely available; the terminal only takes up half the width of Broadway:
But is the money available? I doubt it, and even if it is, mightn't it be better used to actually run more service further south? The terminal is more than adequately served; it's south of 137th that more service would come in handy. Not that I'm ruling out the option -- I'd place it well ahead of some of the other proposals I've seen here and elsewhere.
Nice picture. I'll have to go up there the next time I'm in the city.
More tracks thre will not help, the delay is set by the switching and crossing of incoming lines.
There is plenty of space north of the station, a new station with a pair of loops and both incoming and outgoing island platforms would turn upto 60 tph up there. Plendy of capacity for the No. 1 Lion!
Elias
A third track would certainly help -- look at Main Street on the 7, which handles about 27 tph without a problem.
I don't know if a fourth track would increase the theoretical capacity any higher due to the switching problem.
I think it's possible there is latent demand in the western Bronx. If MTA created true peak-direction express service using the 9 train, paying attention not just to the Bronx but Manhattan as well, it could attract additional ridership, including more ridership in the Bronx.
But your points about infrastructure limitations are important. It would be difficult and very expensive to bring the line to three tracks in places where it has only two. As a result, given a realistic pot of money to spend on that line, I would concentrate on more mainstream stuff: improving stations' capacity to handle larger crowds safely, upgrade stations to ADA compliance, improve signalling so that frequency can increase, and introduce new rolling stock - all things MTA is currently doing, to a greater or lesser degree.
"But your points about infrastructure limitations are important. It would be difficult and very expensive to bring the line to three tracks in places where it has only two."
It is true that there *is* a third track, and that it *has* been used in the past for a fast express, but the sad truth remains that there are no express and local platforms on that line, and the express will skip important stations that is *should* stop at, and would have to stop at smoe stations that it should skip.
ie: 103 to 145 is a busy area, (or so I am told) and if a large number of trains skip these stops, they will be underserved.
By extending the line, and creating a north loop, you increase the tph without switching. Some could then be run express to Dyckman to give others a wack at an empty train, and if a train fills, it could run express 137 to 96th with much greater flexibility than is available now.
Elias
Very true. I would favo5r extending the line to the city limit in the Bronx, and even consider proving a branch turning west to increase coverage and convenience. But of course that will remain a hypothetical "what if" restricted to Subtalk.
There may be some latent demand, but not enough to offset the losses down south. It would not be prudent to reduce service where every ounce of service is badly needed in order to attract a few people in Riverdale by saving them three or four minutes. One is one of the highest-density neighborhoods in the U.S. where a tiny minority have cars and buses move slowly; the other is a much less dense neighborhood with lots of cars and with Liberty Lines express bus service.
Besides, who wants to attract more ridership? Have you seen how crowded the 1 train gets? If the TA refuses, for whatever reason, to increase service on the line, we should be encouraging people find other ways to travel.
The only effective way to safely handle the crowds on the 1 line is to run more service. 72nd Street, infamous for its narrow platforms, is currently getting an extensive rehab, which will improve access into and out of the station but isn't widening the platforms. After the 2 returns to express service in September, stand on the northbound platform at 72nd and see what happens after four expresses have gone by with no local, and then the first train to come in on the local track only makes express stops. Then notice the crush loads that pack onto the first local that does arrive -- all people going to 79th Street and 86th Street. (Anybody going past 86th was on one of the five prior trains, all expresses.) There needs to be more local service on the line between 42nd Street and 137th Street. What happens north of that point is a minor concern; tthe current service is more than adequate up there.
"There may be some latent demand, but not enough to offset the losses down south. It would not be prudent to reduce service where every ounce of service is badly needed in order to attract a few people in Riverdale by saving them three or four minutes. One is one of the highest-density neighborhoods in the U.S. where a tiny minority have cars and buses move slowly; the other is a much less dense neighborhood with lots of cars and with Liberty Lines express bus service."
I absolutely agree that any work done on the 1 linemust not harm service. But extending the line, assuming sufficient rolling stock is available, will improve service to the borough.
"Besides, who wants to attract more ridership? Have you seen how crowded the 1 train gets? If the TA refuses, for whatever reason, to increase service on the line, we should be encouraging people find other ways to travel."
A combination of crowding on the line and the demonstration of latent demand are excellent arguments for seeking capital funds to improve and extend the line. Express bus service is a useful adjunct, but that's all it is - an adjunct.
Extending the line to build a more efficient terminal, is an effective way to improve service on that line..
Elias
Yes.
"Shouldn't the 242nd Street terminal have increased capacity then?"
But other posts have said that:
- The 1 has never been more than 12 tph.
- 242nd can handle 20 tph
- You need the capacity further south anyway.
According to my reading of the August 2001 1/9 timetable, the 1/9 had 15 tph northbound in the morning rush. According to Stephen's reading, it had as much as 20 tph. Whatever it had or has, the terminal does often get backed up, although that's often due to bunching. (If there are 12 trains scheduled per hour, but they come in tight packs of four with 12-minute gaps between packs, half the trains approaching 242nd will have to wait for an opening.)
>137, 116, 110
These 3 have high numbers as they are busy 24/7. During rush hour 103 and 110 are not so bad.
True, a lot of the stations on the line are busy around the clock. I don't have rush hour numbers, but some of them are also exceptionally busy during rush hour.
"I have yet to see even one arguement (valid or not, sane or insame) in favor of skip stop on the 1/9. J/Z may be a different story as there are enough stops acutally skipped to give some validity."
I can give you one. If a majority of riders on the Seventh Av IRT who use the 1 and 9 in the Bronx support the continued use of the skip-stop service, that means it has accomplished something well enough to make a difference in the commute - therefore it should be resumed, because MTA's riders want it that way.
If the skip-stop really doesn't work well, and riders want it abandoned, so be it.
Rider complaints forced the abandonment of express service on the Queens Blvd line east of Union Turnpike. Riders could ask the MTA to abandon the J/Z skip-stop. But they don't.
I meant it has the potential to work from a routing perspective. Since no one in this thread has mentioned changing the QB Local service from the R and V trains, that means that if skip stop were instituted, your station would either have only Broadway or only 6th Avenue trains. On the 1 and 9, all stations have 7th Avenue service. You have a one seat ride to your destination or transfer point. In the QB scenario, not everyone will.
I never said the 1/9 actually works and should be kept. In fact, I actually think it should be gotten rid of. But for the point I was trying to make, it works.
You bring up an excellent point about not being able to disrupt things further than they are by changing the alignment of trains from what it is at present. The truth is, however, people want an express ride as close to their destination as possible, and unfortunately, it looks as if the 63rd street connector, solely by the conversations on here, is still largely a tunnel to nowhere that wasn't needed in the first place.
Unfortunately, they took an established express line (The F Train) with an already lengthy route and put it over an even longer, less direct route through 63rd Street. They then put a new line (The V Train) as a local on the direct routing through 53rd street.
What I believe should have happened is that the V train -- the local, with all its alleged comfort to those whose time means little to them -- should have taken the meandering route through the 63rd Street Connector and left the E and F as they were. Those who want comfort should put their butts where their mouths are (on second thought, forget that) and take the comfortable local through God's Creation while those who want to get somewhere could still do so at their "discomfort."
In time, let's see if the comfort vs. time theory holds water without having to beat people with a stick into accepting it as the Transit Lords have done with the present arrangement. I don't think, however, ridership under my revised plan would be significantly different from what it is in the present configuration. There would be the same number of people who would accept the change, although the people themselves may fit a different rider profile.
It takes a lot of chutzpah to say there is a service improvement when there is less express service to the direct route with a better transfer opportunity at Lexington Avenue, and hobbling an express train over a longer, indirect route to induce riders to waste their time on the local.
Russianoff has it right, but for the wrong reasons. Comfort in the subway only becomes an issue if you are going nowhere fast. Screw comfort. Comfort costs money the system doesn't have. Get me there quicker and I would not mind traveling in those sardine cans as much, because I wouldn't be doing it for as long!
The truth is, however, people want an express ride as close to their destination as possible,
Wrong.
The people at 36th Avenue don't want an express. The people at Steinway Street don't want an express. The people at 46th Street don't want an express. The people at Northern Boulevard don't want an express. The people at 65th Street don't want an express. The people at Elmhurst Avenue don't want an express. The people at Grand Avenue don't want an express. The people at Woodhaven Boulevard don't want an express. The people at 63rd Drive don't want an express. The people at 67th Avenue don't want an express. That's a lot of people who don't want an express.
It's more than that, actually. It's not that they don't want an express. It's that they have no use for an express! They have no choice but to take the local.
The current service plan provides 53rd Street access to everyone on the Queens Boulevard line except at F-only stations. Passengers boarding at Continental and Roosevelt now have one express and one local to 53rd rather than the two expresses they used to have, and I agree that, to them, service has gotten somewhat worse (by an average of about 2-4 minutes if they take whichever of the E or V pulls in first). But passengers boarding at all of the local stations now have a major service improvement: direct access to 53rd, which they never had before.
Now let's consider your service proposal. Anybody boarding at Continental and Roosevelt for 53rd will take the express, since nothing else goes there. Anybody boarding at the ten local stops has no choice but to take the local and transfer to the express (adding to its crowding!) at Roosevelt or QP. Those coming from local stops west of QP furthermore have to wait specifically for the R, not the V, since your proposal diverts the V from QP.
Two final points. First, if you want to cram onto the E to save a few minutes (how much time do you think you're actually saving, BTW?), be my guest, but don't deny others the ability to take advantage of the F and V in their current forms. Second, I believe that both the E and the F are less crowded than they were in early December. So what exactly are you complaining about?
thats all so true,it seems people just LOVE to make a big deal out of a train that runs local. "oh its so slow!" "oh it sucks,id rather go on an express than be on a slow as a snail stupid train" and theres one place else that this holds true at:Broadway/7th Ave. the 3 is the only express now since 9/17 and yet i still see people get off the 1 train to take the 3 regardless if its there or not,and this is at 96th st mostly.if they're going to Times Sq or 34th st or even 14th st. what in the blue hell is the big deal if you stay on the 1 or take the 3 to get there!? if you take a 3 from 96th instead of the 1 its only gonna be between 2-5mins before the 1 shows up after the 3 left yet people are thick headed,express and fast is all they give a damn about.
The 1/2 is my home line, and I disagree with your observation -- most will stay on the local unless they see an express pull in across the platform. Nowadays especially, there's a huge turnover at 42nd, at least off-peak -- well over half the passengers on a downtown 1 get off at 42nd, and they're replaced by a new (smaller) batch of passengers. It's not worth it to wait for the express just to go to 42nd, and we all know it. (Occasionally I get greedy and I get off at 72nd to wait for the express; I almost always reach 42nd along with or behind the local after the one I had been on.)
There's a lot more transferring on the northbound platform at 96th, where the 1 and the 2/3 diverge. But that's perfectly understandable. Any regular 1/2/3 rider knows it's a bad idea to wait at any local station specifically for a 1 or specifically for a 2, since locals have this uncanny tendency to skip local stops. Rather, just get on the first train that stops for you and take it to the next express stop (or 96th).
the 1 is my home line since the day i was born,trust me i know what im saying,ive seen this so much ive lost count already
What time of day is this? When I'm riding the local (which has been my home line for most of the past 27 years), I rarely see many people get off at 96th or 72nd to wait for an express. (They'll get off if they're exiting the station, and they'll get off if there's an express pulling in across the platform right then, but few will get off to wait for a train that isn't there.)
They dont do it at 72St, but at 96St, a whole bunch of pax will run across the platform, look for a 3, then run right back across. Usually someone is there holding doors for them.
It happens at 72nd also. I do it occasionally myself when I'm near the back of the train. (If I'm in the last car, I'll just watch out the rear window.) That's very different from getting off and waiting for an express that isn't yet in sight.
I had a nephew who had the habit of always switching to an express at 96th on the way downtown. He did it one fine Sunday morning and had to wait so long he missed a commuter train he needed to catch and had to cool his heels for an hour.
From then on he realized better not to always switch.
Excellent post, Dave.
David, my concern is not for the riders who live at stations between express stops, whose savings in time is negligible between staying on the same train and transferring to an express at a subsequent station. These people live within the system’s boundaries - itself a huge time savings.
My concern is for the long-rider who lives beyond the system’s boundaries, might have a car, and weighs each trip between public transportation (which helps him keep the mileage off his car, is good for the environment, and the system itself in the extra fare), and forgetting about the hassles of riding the train and taking his car into work.
I live near Exit 25 of the LIE where subway service is nil and it takes a bus 20 minutes on average to get me to either Flushing or Jamaica, excluding the wait for the bus itself. To me, the ride into Manhattan or through Manhattan to Brooklyn or The Bronx is a tooth-gnashing exercise that has too often ruined a social or business appointment of mine because I naively thought that even a 50% extra time margin over the car would be enough to get me to where I had to go. What irritates me more is that when I have to be somewhere at a specific time, the damn system finds a way to delay; and when time isn’t an issue, I arrive having to cool my heels for thirty minutes somewhere lest I show up at my appointment embarrassingly early.
There are probably too many hundreds of thousands of riders in my situation who would like to take public transportation more often - even regularly - but because of various reasons, some personal, some operational, they can’t take the subway or the bus seriously as a means of transportation. Their time and their comfort means money or something else of value to them. They can’t be bothered fussing with a 200-yard subway train that makes stops every 300 yards, or buses that have the potential to stop every other block. They have work to do, family or friends to see, money to make, or a life to live, and a minute on the system is a minute out of these more worthy engagements.
(I know as railfans we would rather be on the train, but others don’t take such a romantic view of the system and would rather be on the outside. Pity them, but then again, one can’t live by railfanning alone.)
All this ridership asks for is a simple ride to some central location or set of hub locations from which they could fan out. They don’t want to be the subject of an engineering exercise designed to dilute the positive aspects of an express ride because not all riders benefit from its existence.
Finally, Gene Russianoff is the staff attorney for the Straphangers’ Campaign of Ralph Nader’s New York Public Interest Research Group. Complaining is his job. Give Russianoff a public transportation system that includes a limousine on demand for every single rider, and he would then complain about the length of the limo or the color. If he doesn’t, he loses his job and must find another which, in this job environment, won’t be as comfortable. I find it upsetting that he found a worthy argument but is pitching it in terms of comfort over time savings. As I said in a previous post, I assume public transportation will be uncomfortable, and it is the job of the system to otherwise limit my discomfort by getting me there swiftly so that I suffer less.
I'm afraid I must disagree. Strongly.
Is somebody forcing you to live far out in Queens? Of course not -- that's where you choose to live. One of the advantages of living far from Manhattan is lower property costs (which translates into lower rent if you rent); one of the disadvantages is higher transportation costs. Already, the rest of the city helps you out by charging you the same fare for a bus ride plus a subway ride halfway across the city that some of us pay to go two or three miles. Now you're suggesting that not only should people who travel greater distances get cheaper service (per mile), they should also get better service. Why?
In other words, those people at the local stops in Queens are paying for your ride. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. If they stop riding the subway or join you in the far reaches of Queens, your fare will go up.
(I'll note, BTW, that not everyone who lives closest to a local stop lives in walking distance of the subway. Especially in Queens, there are large areas relatively close to Manhattan that aren't in reach of the subway.)
If you don't want to take the subway, be my guest. (Don't be too surprised when your free ride on the East River bridges ends, though.) Your transportation problems are ultimately your transportation problems. Solve them however you consider best.
Now, getting back to the post you responded to: how much time do you think you really save on the express? The answer: about 7-8 minutes from Continental to Queens Plaza or about 4 minutes from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza. Really. That's all. If your commute takes an hour, a 4-minute increase aboard an air-conditioned train is barely worth mentioning. It's far from unheard of for people to take the local more than a few stops -- in fact, it's extremely common in the rest of the city.
Let's consider your options. Option 1: Take the E, which is less crowded than it was before this service change was instated. Option 2: Take the V, giving yourself an extra few minutes to get where you're going. Option 3: Take the F and walk a few blocks from 63rd and Lex or 57th and 6th.
You ask for a ride to a hub. Unfortunately, since the 63rd Street connector is east of Queens Plaza, there is no such hub. One of the four services -- specifically, one of the two 6th Avenue services -- has to bypass Queens Plaza. The TA implemented the service pattern that best serves everyone. You want to ignore much of the population of Queens. That's your right, but it's no way for the TA to design its routes.
Of course, David, Silver Fox ignores his other option: the LIRR, which will take him directly to Manhattan, or directly to Brooklyn without going through Manhattan. It's a fast run, faster than the subway, and if he needs to use a subway to complete the trip, I believe MTA does have a package deal LIRR+subway that saves money (correct me if I'm wrong on that). And he can drive a short way (or use a bus) to reach the LIRR at lots of convenient places. Sounds like he lives within a reasonable distance of Great Neck on the Port Washington Branch, or New Hyde Park Rail on the main line.
I would read David Greenberger's excellent post.
"...it looks as if the 63rd street connector, solely by the conversations on here, is still largely a tunnel to nowhere that wasn't needed in the first place. "
Sheer nonsense. One would wonder if you've ever ridden the subway in your life. A new subway line into Queens was and is still needed, but the 63rd Street line serves relatively new and increasing demand in the upper 60's and Roosevelt Island, and the F's route, while a bit longer, cannot be described as "meandering" in any way. It provides a direct route to the Sixth Avenue corridor, where most F riders are headed anyway.
In New York, loud mouths often get the most attention, whether they deserve it or not. The transfer at 53rd is important, but is served nearly as well by the V, which improved local stop service tremendously. And it has helped reduce crowding on the F, which it was designed to do by redistributing riders.
Certain posters here have suggested a "skip stop" solution on local tracks for rush hours, and that may be worth trying, if there truly is enough rider demand for it.
"and the F's route, while a bit longer, cannot be described as "meandering" in any way. "
It is not really any ornger or any more meandering.
The route from Northern Blvd to Queens Plaza and via Ely *is* menadering. Cutting straight across at 63rd and then turning left at 6th ave (I have never ridden on that route yet) seems to me to be a whole bunc LESS menadering.
Elias
Excellent observation
I still think it's worth taking 3 Fs and the 3 Hillside Es and making them into a rush hour service that goes express from Hillside to East 53rd.
That would provide more express service to E 53rd without reducing express service to 6th Ave below 57th and without reducing the local service to E 53rd.
Still only 27 or 28 tph to E 53rd, so it's manageable.
"The truth is, however, people want an express ride as close to their destination as possible, and unfortunately, it looks as if the 63rd street connector, solely by the conversations on here, is still largely a tunnel to nowhere that wasn't needed in the first place."
Actually, while opinion on Subtalk is far from unanimous on the subject, it's pretty clear the only posts you've read are ypur own. You've ignored everybody else's. Your post represents a rather extreme version of the 63rd St critic's opinion (even Gene Russianoff would disagree with you - and I can say this because I know the guy); that's perfectly OK, you're entitled, but you're not letting yourself learn something from others on this board.
Lets not forget that Gene Russianoff hates the V train with passion.
I bet he's paying those idiots not to ride the V train. So the TA will get rid of it. TA will get rid of it??? I don't think so!!!!
<<>>
As I've said b4, Gene Russianoff paid $$$ to these "QB Express Train Lovers" not to ride the V. His deal was to get rid of V himself. He figured that he couldn't do it himself and he knew TA won't believe his words since he's not a transit advocate, so he came to a descion where he hired those 335 responses to do the survey and proved TA the with those survey that V became a useless. ONLY 335 responded his survey! PALEEZZZZ! What about the rest of the subway riders including myself. WE DIDN'T PARTICIPATED IN THIS SURVEY. Lets not forget the NYC has more than 335 subway riders including ME. I chose not to do this survey because I feel that this V rumors is just a bunch of CRAP. Its a stupid untrue crappy message that is just pick up from the Gene Russianoff's dumpster (his brain) and forward to the Straphanager WEBSITE to get everyone's attention. I my opinion, V train is showing some improvement within the past 3 to 4 months. Its not gaining alot of ridership yet just because riders (who don't have any problem with V) are still trying to get use to it. There are some people are still unfamiliar with the V because they haven't ride it yet or they still afraid. I think the TA is doing an excellent job by adding V in QB. Even though G was shorten its part-time hours or shorten its train because of the V or the opening of 63rd tunnel, but, at least the G still exist in QB. Greenpoint people have nothing to lose from it when they still have the COURT SQ STATION and the people mover to tranfer between E V G for free. I say V stays and Gene Russianoff need to shut THE F@^* UP. TA WILL NOT GET RID OF THE V UNLESS THEY SAY SO, IF HE DOESN'T LIKE IT. THATS TOO BAD.
Well, I don't know if he paid people to take the survey -- but I wouldn't be surprised if he only bothered asking people at Roosevelt and Continental and conveniently "forgot" about the ten local stops.
I do know that Straphangers inflates the local-express time differential by 50-100% (they claim 12-15 minutes; actual is 7-8 minutes).
If you go to
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=342001
It doesn't list all the responses to that thread, for example http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=342014 isn't listed although it is a response to the previous message.
I wonder if that E_DOG spoof had anything to do with this. Screwed up the database perhaps?
AEM7
I reattached the two threads (this time). But I've never seen that happen before and I'm not goign to waste too much time figuring out what happened.
Oooooohhhh, so this is how you do it....
Ok AEM-7, if your gonna be apart of the Amtrak family as the AEM-7 then you got to stop bugging out, or more HHP-8 Locomotives will be ordered to scrap the AEM-7, LOL.
Why did you do this? I can't even respond to your message because of your HTML tags. Where did you get this from?
Get what?? I didn't do anything.
Sorry, but I had to reply to your post to relay it to AEM7 because of what he has done. Pretty interesting though, how he can get the subject line to be clickable.
There is no "Post a New Response" section at the bottom of his post so I just used yours.
There is for me. What browser are you using?
Well there is a "Post a New Response" heading and the four text boxes that follow, but there is no space for me to type in a response. Ironically, the buttons for submitting the post are still there and it says "Incomplete Submission" when I press it and can't even type in a response!
BTW, I use IE Explorer 6.
Basically the reason for this is that the original poster tried to put in html in his post-- and didn't do it right. My guess is he didn't close a link tag. The rest of the page (the message form) gets hidden because your browser didn't think it was anything else but part of the link. Basically what you're trying to do is figure out how to post broken html. Why not put your time to better use, learn how to post correct html?
noooooooooo dis is how "U" do it !!!
..........................................lol!!!!
HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE
hey guys. im sure u all know the news about now Metro North called me to a orientation and exam session on tuesday morning in the North White plains yard. it sounds great cause i love me some commuter rail. but anyone know why the session is 3 hours and 15 minutes? what does MTA plan to do with us? they said they have to do a orientation to track department, then a exam, a physical test, a background check and thats it. so do u guys think they are gonna do this all on tuesday or seperate days? please someone shed light on the situation
Hi again!
Andrew Merelis here. Back at the beginning of 2002, I posted on Sub Talk asking for suggestions on where to go for information for my Documentary about the Long Island Railroad. Thank you all again for your input. I have since interviewed Ron Ziel and Vincent Seyfried, and will be interviewing Dave Morrison soon. I also had the pleasure of going on an MTA Transit Museum tour of some LIRR artifacts in April, led by Mr. Morrison, and I took my videocamera and got the whole thing on tape (which I will be making available when I get a chance to edit it. VHS or DVD. Anyone interested?)
Anyway, halfway through production, I wanted to check back in with you guys and make sure I'm covering all the bases. So I pose the following question:
If you were watching a LIRR documentary on TV (which, if I have anything to do with it, you will in the near future), WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE COVERED IN THE DOCUMENTARY? In other words, what major and minor points would you like to see that you feel gives a Long Islander who knows far less than we all do a good sense of the railraod then, now, and tomorrow.
As of now, the footage I have would make a very standard documentary. I have the basic history, and some fun facts, mostly thrhough sit-down interviews with the historians and Ron Ziel's photo collection. But I want more. So what train crashes are important? What personal stories do you have that you think might be worthy of airtime? Any grandparents or older folks out there with good LIRR antecdotes or amazing stories? I want to include as much of a human element as possible. Anyone out there actually step foot in the Late Great Penn Station? What stories would relate the commuter of the past to the commuter of today? And how the heck to I contact Bob Diamond?
Also, can anyone smuggle me into the backstage operations of the railroad? Or are any of you current or retired conductors/engineers that would be willing to be interviewed on camera? Or know of any?
AND, if anyone has a cool LIRR collection of artifacts that they'd like to share on camera, that might help as well.
AND I'm looking for ideas for the soundtrack of the documentary. Can anyone think of good ideas for music underlying various parts of the narration? (most has to be instrumental, which is the true challenge.)
Anyway, ANY thoughts, suggestions, leads, etc, would be greatly appreciated, here on the board, or directly to Merelis@Juno.com.
I'll keep you posted!
-Andrew Merelis
HIstorys and video footage and tour of LIRR freght lines (Bay Ridge, Bushwick, etc) and abandoned or selomly used ROW (Rockaway, montalk) and Hell Gates. A history and timeline of SunnySide, LIRRs involments with NHRR, Pennsie and NJ Transit with LIRR. Insider's Tour of Penn, LIRRs buildings and repair shops and service buildings. Some thing on the New Jamaica if you have a History Channel buddget with computer mockups and flyovers and interior views. A thing on Air train wouldn't be bad. Also a little bit on the M-1 and M-3s (you can guess how they look), also a story on double-decker cars is a must with video of them inside because not many have seen them. If time allows you can cover future routes and planned but not built routes.
Some of you may noticed the crazy reception on FM tonight. Got stations in from Lincoln and Omaha, Nebraska! And Fox 4 Kansas City right over our WNBC.
Has this ever affected two way communications like what NYC Subway uses? They use relatively low frequencies that are affected by Eskip and tropo, so this could affect it.
Wouldn't it be funny listening to Corona or Stillwell towers all the way out in Midwestern farms, miles from the nearest electrified RR?
While the odd reception in recent days has been the "E-Skip" type, I have heard of railroad frequencies being affected by the "trop" type reception. An engineer on NJ Transit has comfirmed that he heard Washington, D.C. Metro transmissions while tuned to the NJ Transit channel (not sure of the frequency) while running a train on the Raritan Valley Line.
That must have been interesting. Whenever I sit behind the T/O on the Metro, the radio is rather boring to listen to.
Attention all Red Line operators, the following elevators are out of service...
There are track workers betweeen Twinbrook and White Flint, flash your lights as you go by...
This is 213, two one three, operating from twelve ten, one two one oh...
219, make the Brentwood stop please...
Some times, that might be all you hear on your ride. Of course, if there is a service disruption...
Subway frequencies are pretty close to the 2 meter ham band.
Not generally DX.
They finished the G/O with the 5 terminating at 180th during the week and weekends? They weren't supposed to be done until July, but the 5 is running and they have a lite G/O, the 5 skipping Tremont and 174th. Did they finish early? YES!
They are doing it during weekdays 10AM to 3PM.
Also I should add the No.5 doesn't have a "lite go" this weekend. No.5 trains are also running local from 125 St to Brooklyn Bridge and Brooklyn Bridge will be the last stop.
Ooooo, redbirds on the loop!!!!!
All together now:
Let's all sing like the (Red)birdies sing:
Squeak, squeak-squeak, squeak-squeak....
Where did you hear about this G.O.? I don't see anything about it on MTA's website.
- Lyle Goldman
For info, on the web site are "Customer Advisories" they are based on General Orders. Not every General Order gets a Customer Advisory on the Web site.
OK This is a plug for the New York Division, Electric Railroaders Association. I have been a member of this group of subway/electric railroad fans since 1967 (pre Internet days). In addition to their excellent shows of movies/slides of subway, trolleys, streetcars, trams, mainline railroads, and with some exception rubber tire electric surface vehicles I get to interact with fellow subway fans "in person". In fact if you look at the NYC Subway Calendars that Bill produces, it's is a who's who of members who were around since the IND started to go over the Manhattan Bridge (me included).
Many new subfans may not be aware of the resources these meeting have. Need to get the latest on the R160, or photos of the Newark PCC on lease to San Francisco, or even the latest on the Acela Express? You may get that info here. The person may be in the know or hear the info from another party (or could be starting a rumor).
This Friday's meeting features Joseph Saitta (founder of Traction Slides International) who will present a show on the PCC cars he has photographed or collected: Los Angeles, Washington DC, Brooklyn, Boston, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, San Francisco. Additionally Newark and Europe will be covered.
The meeting is held in lower Manhattan at the Saint John's University Manhattan Campus. The address of 101 Murray Street is bounded by Greenwich Street and West Street. Doors open at 6:15, meeting starts at 7:15 followed by the show. Bring $5.00 for door fee (aka admission for non-members, no fee for members of the NYD) and extra for the purchase of photos, slides, timetables, books, magazines, etc. Keep a token to go home, it is hard not to see something you want to add to your collection.
So take a break from your ISP and interface with some real people with real names. Maybe you can post a news item you picked up so that we can pick at it.
Phil Hom
(ERA 3620)
Right on, Phil.
And a HUGE portion of the questions that are asked here over and over are answered every month in the Bulletin, the NYD/ERA's newsletter.
Want to know the R- numbers of work equipment? Or why GOs are happening? Or which Redbird is where? Or when a Slant-40 showed up on the (W)? Or which commuter rail system just ordered new bi-levels? IT'S ALL THERE!
And a HUGE portion of the questions that are asked here over and over are answered every month in the Bulletin, the NYD/ERA's newsletter.
Do you have to specifically signup for the newsletter?
I joined the NYD/ERA several months ago and never received one.
They probably have your address wrong. I joined last winter and have been getting mine every month like clock work.
Second the motion. Even though I haven't been to a Division meeting in years (kids and distance) it's always one of the best railfan experiences there is. Think super-SubTalk but with real, live 3D people! :)
Always a great show, sales tables and lots of chatting!
Paul Matus
(ERA 2305)
When are the meetings?
Elias
Third Friday of each month (this Friday coming). Over details as Phil Hom specified in his original post.
....before.....internet.....?
I heard somebody talking once about stuff they used to do "outside," not involving a cup-yooter. Sounded suspicious to me.
First there was B.C. and A.D.
now: B.I.
Many thanks to those who do the volunteer work (and leadership) at both the National ERA and the New York Division. I appreciate both the present leaders and workers and those in the past. The NYD Bulletin is the most important railfan item that comes into my mailbox. Regarding the June issue, special thanks to Bernard Linder for his history of the 28th & 29th Street crosstown line (1896-1919), a route I never imagined existed. If nowadays a firm came up with a battery-operated transit vehicle that would do 112 miles crosstown on one charge, the firm would be hailed as a ground-breaking!
Can someone please explain to me the original proposed layout planned when the Nassau St line was built? Chambers as 4 tracks, 3 platforms?, Canal just has two tracks with a big island platform?, Bowery is a regular lcl-exp layout, and Essex is three tracks with 2 platforms? How was service meant to operate? Was anything supposed to be an express?
Can someone please explain to me the original proposed layout planned when the Nassau St line was built? Chambers as 4 tracks, 3 platforms?, Canal just has two tracks with a big island platform?, Bowery is a regular lcl-exp layout, and Essex is three tracks with 2 platforms? How was service meant to operate? Was anything supposed to be an express?
The whole Nassau line seems like overkill, considering the current service there. But it used to be a fairly important line.
Essex used to be a terminal at the end of the bridge with two sid platforms and one island platform, with only two tracks. When they added more to the Nassau line they made it three tracks and got rid of the original island platform and one side platform and mad it like it looks today. Canal used to be used as a terminal station, and the trains terminating at Canal used the center tracks (Canal looks like Bowery, not one island and two tracks like you mentioned above).
Why Bowery was built that was I don't know, I guess they wanted the terminating at Canal trains seperate from the go through trains. Chambers used to be the end terminal for the Nassau line. Why some ended at Canal and some only went one more station to Chambers. I don't know. Chambers used to have a lot more service/lines also. Some trains went over the Manhattan Bridge from Chambers before the Chrystie Connection severed that connection. Maybe someone else can expand on what tracks were used for what routes, and why the Nassau line seems to have so many tracks to nowhere, and why even though it seems to be set up fpr express service, it would be useless because all the stations are "express" stations, there are no local stations on the line.
Why Bowery was built that was I don't know, I guess they wanted the terminating at Canal trains seperate from the go through trains. Chambers used to be the end terminal for the Nassau line. Why some ended at Canal and some only went one more station to Chambers.
Broadway Short Line trains stub-ended at Canal Street northnound track. It platformed on the middle tracks at Bowery. Broadway-Jamaica trains used the outer tracks both stations.
Broadway Short Line ended at Canal to reduce traffic through the busy interlocking north of Chambers. Customers going between the Nassau Loop and local stations on Bway-Bklyn or to Canarsie haad a cross-platform change at Canal northbound or Bowery southbound with Jamaica trains, which ran express on Broadway Brooklyn.
Chambers was a very busy station, both in train movements and passenger loads, pre-Chrystie. In 1957 it was a parade of both southern and eastern Standards, R16s, SIRT cars and Multis.
In the past (early 1900s) this was a much more important location that it is today. 42nd Street was still a cow pasture, and so the red light district had to be *somewhere*. Brooklyn Bridge still had rail traffic, and the Willie B was a major rail link.
Heck! Even the LIRR came into Chambers Street!
Chambers was supposed to have lines extending up onto the Brooklyn Bridge.
It was a different world back then.
And you can blame all of the changes and losses on Robert Moses and his love affair with automobiles.
Maybe we should ban private cars from Manhattan (Unless you *actually* live there, and have a parking place for your car.)
< /rant >
: ) Elias
Except for deliverly truck, that currently there isn't a replacement for. Though a subteranian frieght lines (like chicago's which can be found here) through NYc going into buildings is a good idea or freight lines in the subway between 12am and 5am.
Some things you just never want to haul around underground, like gasoline and hazmat, and freight on underground *passenger* lines is probably a really, really bad idea. I'm not sure how workable frieght in the city would be, except maybe some place to drop containers off, so that the trucks don't have to all go over the bridges and highways. You can't possibly have turn offs at every single place that needs a delivery, So unless their is a large amount of freight coming and going from one spot, I don't think it would do much good. Maybe the post office could make some use of it.
Maybe the post office could make some use of it.
It's been done before elsewhere - eg London.
There werw a number of possible configurations, depending on what the BRT/BMT was able to get built. As to Chambers itself, it was always intended for all platforms to be either entrance or exit platforms, at least during busy hours. Canal was never a big island platfrom. It had the two outside tracks for through service south and the stub end tracks in the middle. In my memory (back to 1957 or so) the westerly stub track was inactive and probably unusable. The easterly stub track turned Broadway Short Line (Broadway-Brooklyn Locals).
Key to the design was whether the connection from Brooklyn Bridge into Chambers was to open and operate. I haven't seen a plan that would have all four tracks in Chambers connect to all four tracks in Canal Street, logical as that would be.
It's highly possible that, if the Ashland Place Connection (Fulton L to DeKalb) had been built that Fulton trains could have operated to Chambers via Brooklyn Bridge and return via Manhattan Bridge, and/or. vice versa.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/canal.html
Check out Mr Brennan's site. It has a page on Canal St.(above) and also on The Bowery. Very interesting. Canal was supposed to be a through station to Chambers (4 tracks). The old loop tracks from the Manhattan Bridge were supposed to merge just south of Canal St., not stay seperate and then have an interlocking just north of Chambers. They changed the original plan so as to avoid criss-crossing bridge trains and Broadway trains when Chambers was the terminal. When the Nassau line first opened, all service was operated on the two western tracks using only the western platform (Canal/Bowery). This is what they are planning on going back to in the near future. Shortly before the bridge opened, the Jamaica bound track was cut south of Canal St. and swung over to the far eastern track and the two middle tracks walled and dead ended at the south end. You can see evidence of this on the south end of the Jamaica bound platform. Like the platform was shaved off at an angle and a wall added at that same angle.
I was just there today and took my pictures before the area changes. Work is commencing. They have started to chop up the bumping block on J4 tk. Boards have been erected at the south end but you can still use the walkway behind the bumping blocks.
When the Nassau line first opened, all service was operated on the two western tracks using only the western platform (Canal/Bowery). This is what they are planning on going back to in the near future.
That's one thing I was always confused about.....where the "express tracks" at Canal always stub-ended, or did they used to go through? The wall tile on that "cross-over" looks like all the other tile in the station. Sometimes I've read that it walways looked like that, and other times I've heard that the "express" tracks used to continue through, like they are planning to do now.
I never would have known without that link. A great mystery still. For only 2 years did service go through on the southbound express track (north bound service). Apparently no track was ever brought through the Jamaica bound express track. I must admit that I am still bewildered about Essex St.
Speaking of the Nassau Street Line, why did they originally build the Fulton Street and Broad Street stations with the IND station design, rather than the BMT station design, even though it was built by BMT under the Dual Contracts?
- Lyle Goldman
That's a really good question in regard to Fulton and Broad, as I often wondered that myself. 8th Ave on the L was another station that was built like an IND station, even though it was a BMT station. Maybe the city already knew they were going to take those lines over when they were built? 8th Ave was built after the rest of the Canarsie line was built (6th Ave used to be the terminal). The same is true for Broad and Fulton, they were built after the rest of the line was ther already, as Chambers used to be the terminal.
Its really a rather simple explanation: These stations opened in 1931, the same time the IND subway was nearing completion. The city probably purchased ceramic tiles in bulk. They probably also threw in those stations as part of the IND tiling contract to save some money. It would have been hard to justify the added cost of tiling those stations in Dual Contracts style, especially during the depths of the Depression.
Also: Check out the platform extensions to some of the IRT Contract One stations. (Examples: 23rd, 28th, and 33rd Streets.) These extensions, executed circa late-30's and early-40's, were tiled in a "modified" IND design.
You are right about the stations at 28th, etc. The mosaic station name tablets look very much like IND mosaic name tablets. Of course the "modified" strip along the ceiling is slightly more ornate than the typical IND stations. I like the tiled columns at those Lexington stations with the little station names on each one. I was sorry that they removed them at Spring St, and covered over the tiles at Canal. (And replaced the tiled "Canals" with the standard black metal signs. Thankfully they didn't remove the old tiled columns at 33rd Street when they rehabbed that station.
Also: Check out the platform extensions to some of the IRT Contract One stations. (Examples: 23rd, 28th, and 33rd Streets.) These extensions, executed circa late-30's and early-40's, were tiled in a "modified" IND design.
The southbound platforms at local stations between Grand Central and Brooklyn Bridge and both platforms at Broadway local stations north of 96th have this design. Very modified, yet clearly very much influenced by the IND style.
Also consider the passageways along 14th Street between 6th and 7th and between 7th and 8th -- not like the BMT at all!
The southbound platforms at local stations between Grand Central and Brooklyn Bridge and both platforms at Broadway local stations north of 96th have this design. Very modified, yet clearly very much influenced by the IND style.
Yeah, by the time they got around to the northbound platforms on the Lex, b/t BB and 14th all aesthetics went out the window, and they finishd those platforms with that aqua refrigerator tile that doesn't even come close to matching the original tile. (b/t 14th and GC, both sides look alike in the "modified IND style) At least the other extensions, even though not an exact match, somwhat compliment the original. Mercifully, the aqua tiles are gone at Canal and Astor (and I think Spring), but it's still there at Blecker St (which needs a rehab bad anyway).
Spring still has them. Ugh.
The West Side extensions of that style are all beige. They're nothing to write home about but they're not terribly ugly. (I'm still glad most of them are gone. My station is still mostly beige extension; I have a feeling that when the artwork tablets went up in the late 80's, that was treated as a rehab, and we won't be getting a real one like the stations south of 72nd.) I wonder what they were thinking when they picked that shade of green.
Do the upper West side stations still have the tiled columns like the lower Lexington line has/had? I haven't been up there in a while.
Only north of 96th. South of 96th I don't think the columns were ever tiled -- if they were, there's no evidence of the tile.
Are the East Side columns tiled along the entire platform length or only along the IND-style extensions?
I don't think the stations south of 96 ever had the tiled columns either. The East side columns at all the stations from GC to Canal (excluding Union Square) were all tiled the full lengths of the current platforms, including covering around the old round IRT columns. You can tell on the platforms where the old IRT poles are and where they are just the standard columns underneath because the tiled columns covering the IRT poles are much skinnier.
Are the columns north of 96th just on the extensions, or do they also cover the original round IRT columns in the stations that have them?
They cover the original round and regular square columns.
I will venture a guess, then: the columns were originally uncovered, but when the platforms were extended in the 30's, they were tiled over even where they had originally stood bare. Later platform extensions didn't touch the columns.
Do the uptown platforms at Astor, Bleecker, Spring, and Canal have tiled columns? (I think they do, which kind of shoots down my hypothesis.)
Do the uptown platforms at Astor, Bleecker, Spring, and Canal have tiled columns? (I think they do, which kind of shoots down my hypothesis.)
I know GC to Union Square had tiled columns on both sides. For the life of me, can't remember if the ones you mentioned have tiles on both sides. Spring had any tile it did have removed a few years back. I think that the "aqua" tiles sides of those stations never had the tiled columns, but I can't rememeber.
With the Amtrak Cascades Trainset, what is the Top Speed out there in the west for those trains? And how much Horsepower does the F59 Locomotive have?
I'm not sure, but what I think the top speed is 90 (89) mph.
Of course there are many places where you cannot do top speed, and frequently you get pin in behing some freight train.
You know about highway construction: 10 miles of reduced speed.
Well on a train that is 10 miles at 10 mpgh and they mean it too.
So you can easily kill an unexpected hour anywhere on the line. Schedule actually has some recovery tim built into it. But I have arrived late in Chicago more often htan I would have liked.
Too bad they didn't ask *me* to plan AMTK schedules. I'm *sure* I could do a better job of it.
Elias
Schedule actually has some recovery tim built into it. But I have arrived late in Chicago more often htan I would have liked.
The Amtrak Cascades service doesn't go to Chicago.
Too bad they didn't ask *me* to plan AMTK schedules. I'm *sure* I could do a better job of it.
Go right ahead. Northeast Corridor schedule is yours.
Let me put it this way: the NEC is such a complex piece of infrastructure that even the latest operations research has trouble coming up with a workable schedule. The basic reason is because you have at least four different types of basic train speeds (150mph Acelas, 125mph Metroliners, 103mph Genesises, 40-69mph Conrail runs) and you have Rule 261 along most of the route (which increases the number of variables you would need by several orders of magnitude, because there would be {2^n} more different permutations where n is the number of signal sections, because you are able to cross a train over from any track to any track at any interlocking (subject to infrastructure constraints).
I don't claim to be able to do OR -- my math isn't good enough. Let's see if yours is.
AEM7
"The Amtrak Cascades service doesn't go to Chicago."
The Empire Builder. It goes from Chicago across the plains and over the Cascades to some such forgotten end in the Pacific North Wet.
And since I live in North Dakota, that is the train I take when I go to New York. And I *can* design a better schedule for it than they came up with.
Elias
Check out Great Pics of the Amtrak Cascades Trainset:
Amtrak Cascades Pics
The end car is not a "power car", if it is anything it is an HEP car. That baffles me, why they would have an HEP car when the F59 could supply HEP. The thing behind the F59 is a "baggage car", again an unpowered vehicle. The latest versions have a F40 control cab behind the "bat wings" at the end of the train.
AEM7
Maybe the Back Supply's all the HEP, so the F59 can reserve that power for speed and other things, just like the Acela Express, the Rear Power is just like the Leading Power Car, except, it's supply's the HEP Power.
If Amtrak ever decides to put the Cascades Trainset over in the East, they may want to raise the Passenger Cars higher, so people can board at elevated platform's.
How long are the Cascades Passenger Cars?
It's pretty cool how each car shares a truck that has only 1 axle.
AEM7 here's the Pic of a Cascades Trainset with 2 Locomotives at each end:
One engine and one transition/HEP car each end
Incorrect.
One engine at the right-side end (F-59PHI), then one HEP/transition car, then the coaches, then another transition car, then one F-40 cab control car, which isn't a locomotive, at the left-side end.
The F-40 used to be a locomotive; they had prime mover removed and the remainder space made into a baggage compartment. Since the Cascades trainset already has a baggage car, the compartment probably simply sits empty.
AEM7
right you are, indeed 'defanged' F40's used as control cabs.
If you find a closer shot, the other "locomotive" has a 5 digit fleet number, no motors or engine, and has a rollup door on its side. It is a cab equipped baggage car or "cabgage". It is a 1:1 dummy!
Life beyond the Hudson River is different. Got any Best Food mayo?
Top Speed of Amtrak Cascades trainsets is about 125. Also the Cabbages dont have rollup doors, they put in a diffrent kind of door which is flush with the side of the locomotive. Also those Cabbages ride very rough on the UP tracks south of portland and often times a P32 Ex "Pepsican" is assigned so the crew in the locomotive dont get injured
the Cascades run at 79 MAS at least between Eugene and Portland as that segment of UP has no cab signals.
As to HP for the F59--IIRC 3500.
Dosen't the cascades line have 110mph running?
Here, some info:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/amtrak/library/equipment.cfm
I think people come here to talk, not to really find info. If you really wanted to find info, you could have typed "Amtrak Cascades Speed" in Google and this site would have been the first hit...
I like talking on here too.
AEM7
That takes effort tho.
Or, as in my case, I have made several trips between Eugene and Portland on the Cascades as well as previously on both single and bi-level Coast Starlights, and excursion trains. None of them ever exceeded 79 MPH when I rode. If research is on's bent, then a look at an emplotee TT would give authoritative data.
Thanks AEM7, The Cascades is just like the Acela except its runs on Diesel Power and cannot reach up to 150 mph. Does anyone know if the Cascades Trainset is in HO Scale model Trains??
They need to get those Cascades Trainsets all over the US (Except the NEC, we already have the Acela). I like the way they did the Cafe Car on the Train.
Did you enjoy the loud thudding sounds from the suspension? And the barely reclining seats pitched way too close for six footers like me?
I never rode the Train myself, but plan to this summer, 5'10", so I don't think that will be a problem for me.
I must say I was pleasently surprised when I saw the interior of the Cascades train. Usually those cheap people in Europe cannot come up with anything which vaguely resembled class. The Cascades trainset looks like it had class (from the inside, not from the outside).
Well David had just confirmed for me what I had feared -- in such a small train, Amfleet-type seat pitch was simply not possible. Amfleet-type seat pitch is what distinguishes a good American train from a shitty European long-distance transit-vehicle. It would seem that the Cascades could do with an internal refit -- just move the seats further apart, and/or install old Amfleet seats in them. If there's not enough width in the train, they will simply have to make a 2+1 seating arrangement.
There were safety concerns about the Cascades, in terms of crashworthiness, but I guess on light density, dedicated passenger lines it is OK. From what I hear, the UP Cascades Corridor is not a light density, dedicated passenger line...
I need to ride the Cascades too. Maybe someday.
I don't like the Cascades train being that it's to low to the ground, but otherwise It's beauti. I thought the Trainset had 2 Locomotives at each end, does someone know anything about this? How Long is the Passenger Cars and does anyone else know more facts about this train? Thanks
I thought the Trainset had 2 Locomotives at each end,
The trainset has one locomotive at one end -- an EMD F-59PHI. At the other end, there is what looks like an F-40 but it's an F-40 cab control car in the 202xx series. The real F-40s (not many left) are in the 2xx series. I last saw 220 and 238 at Albany, and I have no idea how many F-40s are still active but it isn't that many.
I rode behind 220 and 238 on a railfan trip to Brattleboro, VT a while back. This set is still hanging around in the BOS area, probably being used for rescues and motive power shortage covers etc.
AEM7
I especially like the Tilt Technology that the Trainset has.
I saw pic of the Trainset having 2 Power Cars at each end, but I can't find it, when I do find I'll post the Pic here.
even in the car I rode last which had 2 + 1 seating the itch was too short. This is not a physics problem its stupid procurement. If the vendor can do English language signage, US compatible brakes, HEP etc. surely the seating pitch is negotiable. Thus I fault ATK.
Whoa Whoa Whoa, easy there
Don't go messing with the Talgos by grouping them right down there with the Acelas, the two are totally different creations, from different countries, and from different companies. Thats like saying a Pullman 10-5 and Amfleet are just like each other, the Acela is a TGV based HSR that runs off catenary, and has an active tilt system that requires a computer, and hence is prone to failure. The Talgos are much lighter, more elegantly engineered to passively tilt without the aid of computers.
Yes the Talgo is Diesel, and yes, it would be nice to see them elsewhere in the country where high platforms are not a problem.
Can I post an alternative verision of Wdobner's discourse?
Don't go glorifying the Talgos by grouping them right in there with the Acelas, the two are totally different creations, from different countries, and from different companies... the Acela power car is a TGV based monster that runs off catenary, and has an active tilt system that requires a computer, and hence is prone to failure. The Talgos are much lighter, engineered in a flimsy fashion to slosh around without the aid of computers.
I like the Talgos for their 9-inches of cant deficiency (that's higher than Acela's maximum of 7.5-inches) but I would be interested to know how the engineer in the F59 stops himself from being slammed into the side windows if he really is running at 9-inches of cant deficiency (also known as super-elevation). The engineering of the Talgo as a structure is basically a piece of shit -- if that train was ever involved in an accident, the coaches will probably fold together like pieces of paper (similar to what happened to that Metrolink train). Although the articulated design helps, it does not altogether eliminate the possibity of serious telescoping.
Now some of you will have actually SEEN a Viewliner that had been involved in the Florida Auto Train wreck. I saw one in person, in Boston. The coach was slightly dented where another coach had struck it, other than that there were very little visible signs of damage. That's how you build a traincar.
As I said before, though, Talgo is a good solution on light density lines where there isn't much of a risk of a collision, and it is certainly cost effective in terms of amenities and potential journey time reductions offered. However as soon as you introduce even just ONE freight train at the same time as the trainset, you're immediately making the case for a Genesis plus a rake of Amfleets look much better.
In a sense this is a sunk cost consideration. If the infrastructure costs are sunk, Talgos are great. If the infrastructure costs needs to be shared with a freight railroad, then traditional FRA-compliant equipment, with its 200,000 lbs buff-force requirement, is called for.
Corridors where the Talgos would be great:
* NICTD Commuter Rail
* Florida East Coast (after all freight operations transferred to the adjacent ex-ACL line)
* Chicago-Pittsburgh via the ex-PRR Ft. Wayne Line (again, after all freight had been moved off it onto other routes)
Corridors where the Talgos would be unsafe:
* Santa Fe Mainline
* Northeast Corridor
* Conrail Mainline
AEM7
Although the articulated design helps, it does not altogether eliminate the possibity of serious telescoping.
Here, try something for yourself. Take two steel cans (say Campbell's soup) and tape in between the two cans, end-to-end, a cardboard tube like the ones leftover from a roll of paper towel. So that's your model of the F-59 (first can of soup), Talgo coaches (the paper tube), and then the F-40 cab car (second can of soup).
Now run the trainset around a bit, for fun. Make choo choo noises (well, it's more like chi-ding, chi-ding now).
Now align the trainset up against a wall, with one of the soup cans facing the wall. Strike squarely in the middle, the Campbell's soup can at the end furthest from the wall. Make sure you strike it exactly in the middle and towards the wall.
Now tell me, did the cardboard tube crumple, or did the Campbell's soup cans?
AEM7
We enjoyed riding a Cascade train on April 21 from Portland to Seattle. The seats seemed comfortable. I did not like the repeated slow orders. One interesting item: There was a movie on small TV screens, but small notice banners would appear just at the right time, "Crossing X River," "Ten miles from X station," etc. With the miserable loss of schedule time, I was wondering how the notices stayed correct.
The cars are short. I noticed no bumping. It was dispatching that caused the problem.
Another note: they still use step stools because the trap steps do not go close enough to the level of the platform.
Check this Link Out about the Talgo Cascades Passenger Cars:
Amtrak Talgo Cascades Passenger Cars
The Astoria El, although short, is a vital link to northern Queens. It is a lifeline to Astoria, which is a very vibrant community, and also serves various bus connections all over northern Queens. 16 million people annually use this line, which is only 6 stops. Without the el, bus traffic would be unthinkable, and Queensboro Plaza and the Queens Blvd lines would face crowding that nobody could imagine. Let's extend the el to LaGuardia, and serve parts of E. Elmhurst while were at it.
The Astoria El is a vital link to vibrant communities, and it should never be demolished unless it is replaced by subway, or better yet, another el.
Oh boy...........here we go again.........lol.
Seriously though, this thread was meant to celebrate the el we all know and love, not bash it with no proper justification....which leads to people bashing each other.
you mess with the astoria el, you mess with me! you mess with everyone that lives on it, and these days, politically, that would be suicide.
It's a great line, with great service. structurally, it's on par with every other el in the city. (so unless you want to rip them all down... as well as anything else that needs occasional repair in this city - whcih pretty much means buzzdozing NYC entirely).
now if only every line in this city was served so reliably, without the huge crowds.
as for buses - occasionally they replace service with a shuttle bus on one summer weekend per year for track work around QP - when this happens, traffic is FUBAR, the buses are overflowing with people and generally can't fit anyone else in them by the time they get to 30th av, and the complains surely go through the roof. if there were a fire or accident under the el, any rescue workers tring to get to the scene would face delays and I'd rather not think about what the results of that might be.
I have to agree. Even though it is a fairly short el by other el's standards, it's one of my favorites, probably right after the Jamaica and M line el.
Exactly what prompted this post? I wasn't aware that the Astoria El was in danger of closure.
Dan
There was a ludicrous thread over the past few days that they should remove the Astoria el, it got totally out of hand with a lot of name calling on both sides, so the thread was deleted. To answer your question, the Astoria el is in absolutely NO danger of being removed at this time.
I'm in favor of replacing the el with an underground subway, but NEVER would I want it to be destroyed entirely. The MTA is repainting the el over the next 2 years a new hunter green color. Work is scheduled to begin next month. I think we should save the $$ and put it toward an underground Astoria subway.
And while we're on this topic, I don't understand why the el can't be extended over the Grand Central Pkwy. to LaGuardia Airport. I mean, after all they build the AirTrain over the Van Wyck. Extending the N over the GCP wouldn't disturb anyone, and it would be the shortest route to the airport.
If they did that and repaired it in the process, I WOULD BE ALL IN FAVOR OF KEEPING IT.
E_DOG
well guess what,it is gonna happen so just be patient and wait like the rest of us have been waiting for a bazillion of other things to happen like a 2nd ave subway
The Astoria line currently terminates at Ditmars Blvd, well north of where it crosses over the GCP. They'd have to relocate the Astoria Blvd station to a point south of Astoria Blvd, because the current station is right over where 31st Street crosses the GCP. Also the Ditmars stop would have to be eliminated if the N/W were to be extended over the GCP. Still, I think that extending the el over the GCP should be looked at.
Not exactly so. If the Astoria were to continue north to the next major east west avenue, and then bend to the east you would come back to the GCP and could follow that into Laguardia.
But it aint about to happen, and their are better ways to get to LAG than this.
Elias
But it aint about to happen, and their are better ways to get to LAG than this.
Hmmmmm.... an 86th St crosstown Line extended under the East River and along Astoria Bvd to LGA?
"Hmmmmm.... an 86th St crosstown Line extended under the East River and along Astoria Bvd to LGA?"
Actually, I ran it along 125th Street, and ducked under the east river to the bronx and then looped up to the Hell Gate bridge and then edged the ROW over onto the GCP for the last lap.
Crossed not a single NIMBY in all of Queens or the Bronx, and 125th Street would welcome a crosstown.
I tried to bed it south along the West Side Line, since that tunnel has room, and then you could make some airline terminals aroud 72nd Street and at Javits Center.
I was going to have baggage check in there and the whole nine yards, but theny those yokles went and knocked down the WTC, and so remote Baggage check in is out as it were.
Elias
125th Street would welcome a crosstown
Definitely. In my plans I have it as a 2nd Av Local.
The thing is 23rd, 34th, 57th, 86th and 96th are also streets with a case for a crosstown :D Big time Subtalk fantasy?
About possible crosstown routes.
23rd-14th is close enough, there is no need to make one at 23rd.
34th-42nd is close enough
86th-BUILD IT! This is a vital east-west subway route!
96th-too close to 86th
125th-So many north-south buses use 125th, I am not so sure you need a crosstown route at this location. For example, someone north of 168th Street can take an M3, M4, M101, or M98 and still get to the east side in a relatively easy manner. I could see reason for building such a route but 86th should be built first in my opinion.
23rd-14th is close enough, there is no need to make one at 23rd.
23rd St has one of the 5 slowest buses in Manhattan running along it and is a busy route for getting across Manhattan. I say build it, as it would also help connect to the East Village and maybe Javits Center.
34th-42nd is close enough
42nd is very busy, 34th could provide relief, as could 57th St.
86th-BUILD IT! This is a vital east-west subway route!
Correct. I see this one as the most necessary.
96th-too close to 86th
Not sure. Both 96th and 86th sustain very slow very full buses. Maybe 96th would be necessary, but certainly not until after an 86th St Line.
125th-So many north-south buses use 125th, I am not so sure you need a crosstown route at this location. For example, someone north of 168th Street can take an M3, M4, M101, or M98 and still get to the east side in a relatively easy manner. I could see reason for building such a route but 86th should be built first in my opinion.
125th would be most use IMHO as a branch of the 2nd Av Local. Agreed, it is not #1 priority, but it sure would be useful.
Further North, 181st St would provide an useful start for a Tremont Av Line (which I'd suggest for going across into Queens either via Throgs Neck or College Point.
207th St would also provide an useful start for a Fordham Rd - Pelham Parkway Line, Possibly as an A train extension.
I will put together some plans based on Crosstown routes over the next few days and post them here. I might even get round to creating a website!
"23rd St has one of the 5 slowest buses in Manhattan running along it and is a busy route for getting across Manhattan. I say build it, as it would also help connect to the East Village and maybe Javits Center."
East 23rd St is NOT the East Village. Nothing north of 14th Street would be called the East Village. It would be Gramercy Park, and then further east Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village.
All these crosstown bus routes are very busy - I'd say 23rd and 34th coud be as much as 100 people every 5 minutes. That's 1200 people per hour, enough for 1 tph.
Great fantasy, but other fantasies deserve more attention.
"East 23rd St is NOT the East Village. Nothing north of 14th Street would be called the East Village. It would be Gramercy Park, and then further east Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village. "
If you would have looked at my map, you would have seen how my 23rd Street Subway would have worked.
And I was not the one who saaid that it *would* go to the East Village, although...... : )
Elias
If you would have looked at my map
That was precisely the map I was thinking of, Elias.
Let's stick to a smaller number of fantasies, and perhaps they could come true.
We have a cross town subway on 14th Street. It could be extended two blocks to a new terminal at 10th Avenue. From there, it could turn north. There is even a proposal for it to go out to NJ.
We have a cross town subway on 53rd Street. If the WTC station is rebuilt to allow 30 trains to turn, and a local to express merge is put in on 8th Avenue south of 50th Street, then all trains through 53rd Street (E and V today) could take the 8th Avenue route, providing more frequent service from Penn Station back to East Midtown. 53rd St. riders would change at 7th Avenue for 6th Avenue service. the A and C would run express from 50th Street, eliminating the Canal St. merge.
Most importantly, we have the Flusing Line and Shuttle on 42nd Street. NYC is pushing to have it extended down to Penn Station and west to 11th Avenue, in association with an upzoning and the Olympics. I'd have it pop out of the ground (no residences around) in the train yard and end west of West Street in a loop paralell to the Hudson, for a direct, fast, frequent connection for Hudson River ferries.
In addition, I'd add a shuttle station at 6th Avenue (for transfers) and run the shuttle 1/2 mile east (stations between Lex and Third and at Second Avenue), under the Con Edison development site at 41st and the river with a station in the basement (use state and local taxes geneated by the development to pay for the extension), then at grade across the FDR service road (relocate the 42nd street entrance north and cut the service road)and under the FDR to a series of ferry piers. This would provide East River ferries, as well, with a fast, frequent connection to Grand Central and Times Square.
You'd have seamless (or low seam, anyway) ferry access to Midtown, combined with the existing good ferry access to Downtown, which is accessible to the water on foot or at South Ferry. You'd also have the equivalent of the long discussed 42nd Street light rail, but with no loss of street lanes and no need to wait at traffic lights.
Think, 1/2 mile underground and 1/2 mile at grade to the east, and an additional block in the air to the west (more than already proposed), and we'd create a cross town line and a new world of water transit -- subway transit links. If we are going to do anything, that's it.
a 34th st. subway might be nice. the m34 is always stuck in traffic, and i recall one humorous trip where it got stuck in a pothole. it's easier for me to take the 6 to the L to the a/c if need to get to the west end of 34th than to attempt the M34 (or m16, is it?).
23rd, 34th, and 57th would all be great lines, but if you build all 5 of the lines you proposed, you now have way too much service. So if you can only build one or two of your proposals, I would tell you to do 86th first, then 125th. Keep in mind that once one line is built, the buses on not only the street it runs on but also those around it would be less crowded.
For the meantime, I think that they should make an M87 bus, non-stop from Lexington Avenue to 96th and Broadway. The only stops this bus would make would be at CPW and 96th and Broadway and 96th. Buses would run on 86th towards the park, right on CPW, left on 96th, run to Broadway, reverse for the eastbound. Metrocards would be programmed to allow a rentry to the subway for free at the other end and an additional subway-bus transfer. For example, you could get on the 1 at 181st Street, go to 96th, get on the M87, get on a southbound 4, go to 59th Street, and then take a Q32, all on one fare (very theoretical, I doubt anyone would want to do that).
No, 96th and CPW is pointless for a single intermediate stop -- it's entirely residential. Run the bus along Broadway instead of CPW and have intermediate stops at 86th and Broadway, 86th and CPW, and 84th/86th and 5th.
But that still doesn't address the traffic issues. Replace on-street parking along 86th Street with on-street loading and drop-off zones, and ticket anyone who stops, even just to drop off a passenger, in any of the street's travel lanes, and the bus would have a fighting chance.
The idea of this bus is to make very limited stops. If it runs on CPW, it has less traffic to contend with. The 96th/CPW stop is meant to be a connection to the subway. To add a stop at 5th will create more delays and isn't necessary.
This doesn't have to be the most frequent bus, it just has to be fast.
Traffic on Broadway isn't heavy. It's the crosstown traffic that's the problem.
Besides, you don't want to connect to the subway at 96th Street proper. The only station entrances are on the south side of 96th, and they can't handle crowds. The south end entrances, between 93rd and 94th, are much better suited for large passenger volumes.
I'm afraid you're not going to find many people who would take the subway to this bus and then transfer back to the subway at the other end -- most people who might find such a route useful already have better alternatives. If you want any ridership at all, you'll need to make it useful for people going to or from the areas it serves -- and that means adding stops at 86th and Broadway (busy commercial and residential area) and at 84th/86th and 5th (museums and connections to a busy bus corridor).
Basically, it would be an M86 Limited, extended north to 94th for the better subway connection there.
Yes, it is an M86 Limited extended to 96th for transfers to the express.
Maybe a routing on 86th on the West Side is necessary, I was thinking speed over convienence. And you could always start without the 5th Avenue stop and add it if the need exists. The problem with having a 5th Avenue stop is you are going to get people who get on at Lex only to get off at 5th.
How would buses turn around at Lex? Discharge, L on 3rd, L on 87th, L on Lex, R on 86th? I think the westbound M86 stop is on the NW corner, where is the eastbound?
Westbound M86 is on the NW corner. Eastbound M86 is on the SE corner (although it should be on the SW corner, for easier transfers). Your routing would be able to use existing bus stops.
Another option is to turn right on Lex, stop there both to drop off passengers and to pick up new passengers, and then to turn right on 85th and go straight into the park.
At the west end, it could turn like the M96, but that's unnecessary, since the bus only needs to go as far as 94th and traffic at the corner of 96th and Broadway is best avoided. It could run west on 86th, stopping on the west side of Broadway (there's an existing stop on the east side, but the west side would be more useful in this case), then going right on West End, right on 94th, right on Broadway, stopping by the midblock subway entrance.
Can it run on West End? I thought buses were not allowed there.
There has to be at least one loop where the buses can layover. I think it should be on the East Side since the best West Side routing would make this layover harder to make without blocking other buses.
Can it run on West End? I thought buses were not allowed there.
That's what I used to think, but apparently it's not true. Any NYCT bus is permitted to use any city street that it can fit on. Buses already do run on one of those blocks of West End.
They aren't allowed on Park between 96th and Grand Central. The only bus that goes on West End for more than a block to turn around is the M57 and its below the residential area, isn't it? The M86 goes one block and it isn't revenue, so I am not counting that.
They are allowed on Park. They probably don't use Park, as a practical matter, so they don't get complaints. If a water main break closes Madison, I'm sure the first few buses up Madison would divert to Park until official word came in with an official reroute (which would probably be via 3rd, again, so as not to engender complaints).
There are residential buildings on West End south of 72nd, courtesy of Robert Moses, although they're of very different character from the ones north of 72nd.
The M17 used to use West End for two blocks, 81st to 79th.
But I stand by my claim that NYCT buses are permitted to use any city street as long as they fit (and they don't violate other prohibitions, like weight restrictions). Ask on BusTalk if you like; I think that's where I first got this information.
I alredy have a plan for a beautiful 23rd Street Subway
My idea for 34th Street is different. I envision a mall running the length of 34th street with LRVs running on the level above the sreet grid, and with and enclosed mall above that and a promonade above that. The LRV lines would cross into Queens to terminate at a large Park and Ride facility (RT&Parking in the $10.00 price range), and similar in New Jersey. The east river crossing is on an elegant span built exclusively for this LRV service, while the hudson crossing is via a new tunnel, perhaps a four track tunnel giving AMTK and NJT an extra pair of lions under the water.
For pax boarding on 34th street, there is no fare, and so no fare collection anywhere on this lion.
Existing landlords and shops will be able to claim first dibs on connecting their buildings to the new mall and opening spaces onto it. So it be joint commercial/transit venture.
Elias
I never thought about thta. Well there will be lots of YIMBYs. Also the EL will have to be rebuilt for 4 track service up to where it passes GCP.
Excuse me, wasn't the 3 ave el supposed to be replaced by subway that is one block east of it? And WHERE is it?
Like the Chinese laundry says when your shirts are a week late:
NEXT TUESDAY!
Like the old line said by the theature agent:
THE CHECK IS IN THE MAIL!
I still say it is a junkyard line that smashes cars and has outlived its usefulness. IT MUST GO!!!
E_DOG
CAREFUL!!!!
The truth is the truth and I stand by it.
E_DOG
WILL YOU PLEASE SHUT UP!! jesus christ,what in blue hell is wrong with you edog!? an el that serves thousands of people everyday,16 million every year,and you want it gone!?NOBODY in thier right mind would say they want it gone.i dunno what your beef is with that el but your 'wish' is never ever gonna happen.and thats 500% guranteed!not 100%,500%.its THAT important nothing's ever gonna happen to it except an extention beyond Ditmars Blvd.I've heard alot about it and maybe within the next 20-30 years LaGuardia Airport will see the Astoria El knocking on its front door.but for now,the 2nd Ave subway is top priority.Now can we ALL just forget about this post....which shouldnt have been put up in the first place u.u....and just go on with whatever else we must deal with!?Honestly!
If it's been 60 years since we were promised a second ave subway what makes you think there will be any others (over 1 mile)?
There was a clamor to rip it down twenty years ago when it was smashing up all those cars. Soon you'l hear that clamor again. Remember, those who ride the El don't live and work under the El, and in this particular case, it's the latter who'se side I'm on. That said, I WILL NOT SHUT UP!
E_DOG
That said, I WILL NOT SHUT UP!
Keep yelling. That is freedom of speech.
The truth is the truth and I stand by it.
How is this the truth? Weren't you taught the difference in elementary school between fact and opinion.
You can say whatever you want, but it isn't fact until you show evidence proving that.
Crushed windshields aren't proof? I beg to differ.
E_DOG
No, it isn't.
The structural integrity of a line at some point in the past does not diminish is present utility as a transportation medium.
Just don't stand under where the pigeons are.
ROTFL!!
What?
Translation for the uninitiated: Rolling On The Floor Laughing...
Sometimes we've got to stop looking at things like half crazed Trekkies (Railfans) and call a spade a spade. AN EL IS NOT HOLY!!!
E_DOG
It isn't as holy as a religion but it is more holy than my car!
If an El or any manmade thing is Holy at all then you have a SERIOUS problem.
E_DOG
Don't criticize our religious beliefs....your big on the First Amendment and being able to say what you want...it also guarantees freedom of religion. If we choose to think that manmade things are holy, the least you could do is respect that.
I'm not even gonna touch that one.
E_DOG
If we choose to think that manmade things are holy, the least you could do is respect that.
I respect that. Of course, I believe that all religion is man made, so worshipping trains is no different.
Saying that you shouldn't worship man made things is bullshit. It is no different than one mainstream religion bashing another.
Oh and what about crosses E_DOG? They're man made and they're holy to all Christians.
Crosses are related to the crucifiction of Christ. To say that trains are Christ like is insane. For your sake I hope you don't repeat this outside the context of this Board.
E_DOG
He didnt say trains were like Christ....he said that Trains were something man-made, just like crosses, and they have meaning to certain people.
He, all of you, are placing religious significance on something as mundane as a damn El. I'm borderline Agnostic so I'm the last person who should be spouting religious dogma, but I respect it (Religion) enough to not equate it with something this ridiculous.
E_DOG
This topic has gotten way out of hand because of one poster (i wont mention names), but lets try to get it back on the topic of The Positive aspects of the Astoria El and why we love it. If you have something negative about the El to say, please keep it to yourself for the benefit of SubTalk, weve heard your opinion already.
To this thread I say, "To El with it"....
'nuff said...
hehehehe
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
Go here: http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=343110
and thank me later.
I place religious significance on NOTHING. However I respect anyone who does. If someone finds trains holy, then let them do it.
In fact, I see no difference between worshipping a method of transportation vs. a method of execution. What if my savior died on a train? Would I not be justified in finding trains holy?
If you say "no" then you're just a hypocrite who believes in one part of the first amendment that fulfills your own purpose, but not another that goes contrary to your latent xenophobia.
Can't you guys take a joke?
I ment I would rather lose my car than see a EL ripped down. And no, don't reply about falling stuff. It has been covered already
People on the East Side of Manhattan had a serious problem ever since May 13, 1955.
Ain't my problum. P.S. crashing a plane into 370 Jay Streets WON'T HELP!!!!!
May 13, 1955 was the first day that the 3rd Ave El wasn't running. The current problems along the Lexington Ave line also started on this date. That's what I was talking about.
E DOG, why dont you justify your opinions for once? I guarantee you that nobody on SubTalk would have any beef with you if you would just justify some of your remarks. this thread WILL NOT be a repeat of the last one relating to the Astoria El....this is to discuss the POSITIVE things of it.
At this point, on this board, I think the Astoria El has been "beaten to death". Everyone knows your opinion, and you know everyone elses, for or against. At this point.....Who the F cares anymore.....or is that who the N/W cares anymore?
If the thread is allowed to die, I will cease comment on the subject. But if I am challenged, I will continue to respond.
E_DOG
"Let's extend the el to LaGuardia, and serve parts of E. Elmhurst while were at it. "
First you say "it's Full" and then you say "lets extend it to..."
Well which is it?
Extending it is just not gointo to happen. The NIMBYs will scream if you take it down, and they will scream if you try to extend it. IT is there, and it is done, and that is that.
Now Laguardia... There are several options, and while my subway proposal for the line is nolonge on my web site, I'll try to put it back, I like better my plan to connect it to the WTC via an LIRR/NJT connection.
Elmhurst. I had a plan for that too, via the Williamsburg bridge with alternate service to 8th Avenue (or Javits Center) via the 14th Street Subway. That plan isn't on my site at the moment either.
Maybe I'll take some time this afternoon to put both of them back again.
Elias
I am still haunted by images of this line raining down on unwary pedestrians and vehicles. When I walked the length of it in 1999 (it only took me half an hour to do so) I saw pieces of it scattered in the street! Like the old Douglas L in Chicago, it is a health hazard; a threat to life and property alike. That's why they must get rid of it. Otherwise, sooner or later IT WILL KILL SOMEBODY!
E_DOG
If you wanted to see a health and safety hazard, its not the Astoria El. You should've walked under the Williamsburg Bridge in the late 80s...chunks of steel would break in your hand. Several of the load-bearing columns had cracks running straight down the middle of them. What you see from Astoria is probably just rust or paint chips...nothing to cause serious injury or compromise the structural integrity.
Explain that to the people who had large holes blown into their cars windshields. Paint can't do that. Am I the only one on this Board old enough to remember this?!
E_DOG
I suggest you stop being so harsh all the time and avoid flaming.
E_Dog,
If you seriously have a complaint about the maintenance of the Astoria El, I suggest you write to:
MTA NYCT
370 Jay St
Brooklyn
NY 11201
USA
It might be helpful if you told them precisely where you suspected structural problems and what exactly you believe those problems to be.
Unfortunately for you, this board isn't a way to tell the MTA that their infrastructure is falling to pieces, so why don't you actually do something practical about it rather than using loaded terms at railfans when you wholly realise what reaction you are going to get.
Read FDNYChris's post about the Williamsburg Bridge.
The bridge is nothing like that today. If they had taken your advice and torn everything with structural problems down, then people would be taking the ferry from Brooklyn again. Structural problems don't justify demolition, they justify REPAIR and RECONSTRUCTION, such as the one that was done to the Astoria El and all the els in the city.
The fact is, it didn't take them twenty years to realize that this was a health hazard and two, they should have torn that bridge down and built a new one.
E_DOG
Why tear it down? it has a tremendous amount of historical value.
Then let them rebuild it from the ground up like they're doing with the Douglas L in Chicago.
E_DOG
They already rebuilt the Willy B....they are still doing it right now.
Your "Staying with your gun" thread has been deleted. I guess Dave didn't find much interest in it.
It was off topic, but I made my point.
E_DOG
And that would cost less money and have fewer inconviences? While that might make the most sense from the standpoint of someone wanting a stable bridge for as long as possible, it doesn't make sense in other ways.
Greek mafia/ Greek gangstas. I know they exist cause one of my school buddys told me of them some years ago.
if thats true,which i refuse to believe you,then it'll get fixed.thats why the TA has these 4 year plans so that they can fix whatever needs to be fixed.every 4years a plan is developed and several issues are touched upon,like the WPR line getting repainted and the Pelham Parkway station on the 2 line getting a total makeover...which REALLY needs it whew...anyway,and replacing old signals with new ones.those are just some examples of whats included in these plans but they will happen and many of them are already underway.hell i read before that the Astoria El is gonna be worked on so quit worrying about its 'health hazard.' everything on that el will be perfect within the next few years.
In the meantime, LOOK OUT BELOW!!!!
E_DOG
You make it seem like it rains debris everyday. I lived in the neighborhood for 20+ years, and have walked underneath the El many times. I fear bird poop more than falling debris. I can see why you would want the El torn down if it's so poorly maintained that nuts, bolts and live electricity start falling on people's heads, but I don't see that happening. You can argue a case of just about anything that is potentially dangerous and call for it to be torn down, banned, closed, etc. It's not going to happen.
=)
With all the Els in NYC, why are you harping on only one?
Because it's the only one I've seen to be a threat to life and limb.
E_DOG
Im sure you know all about its current danger, since you have that masters degree in structural engineering and all the design specs on the el and its condition laying around on your desk.
Then why have I never been bombarded by any of this debris? -- and I drive and Park under it virtually every day!!
In any event - If in fact there is a problem then the answer is to repair it - not dismantle it.
Just what has made the Astoria El so sacred to so many of you? For God's sake, it's only an El!
E_DOG
What has made it such an object of revulsion to you? For god's sake, it's only an El!
It might only be an el, but thousands of people use it daily for transportation. What would they do without it? Ride busses in which it's impossible to fit all of them?
You go off, spout opinions as if they are facts, people complain about them, and then you're surprised at their reaction?
What if I went up and smashed up your car because I though it was spilling oil into the street?
I happen to live in Astoria - so any suggestion that it should be replaced by bus service is not taken in a favorable light. It's more than "only an El" - its the transportation lifeline of Astoria - Busses just can't and won't provide the same service.
In any event if you can show how bus service would be able to serve all of the people who currently use that El - please produce the report and keep this discussion on a civil level. So far the only postings I have seen with statistical proof backing them up are those in support of keeping the El as is.
Most people these days won't care if the El has the capability of killing someone until it actually does. Besides, I am sure that the TA would not allow trains to run on it if it was structurally unsound. I hope they do something productive w/ all the GOs they schedule...
Actually since Americas Favorite National pastime is sueing to get money. The MTA wouldn't allow a 1 in a 40000000 chance of something hiting someone. If that was true the El would be down the same afternoon.
For all its faults it's better than having no El at all. The line is needed and far too busy to be scrapped. It needs to be extended, true! If it was scrapped there would not be enough buses to transport all the people to/from Queensboro Plaza. Andone who has ever lived or worked along 31 Street knows that.
Has anyone noticed the graffiti on the superstructure of the El as it heads north from QB Plaza? Its probably about 50 feet off the ground, way up on one of those pinkish support beams under the tracks. Its highly visible from a manhattan-bound 7 if you look to the right just before QB Plaza. Some of these graffiti vandals have been getting gutsy and climbing up real high and hanging onto steel mere inches wide instead of the old school subway yard attack.
Im not one to promote vandalism, but i think whoever did that deserves a pat on the back and a cold Bud just for having the guts to climb up there.
They've done something like that on the CSX bridge over the Baltimore Streetcar Museum tracks. Granted, it takes a lot of guts, but it's still stupid.
E_DOG
Lets not encourage wannabes from making their mark.
Ever tryed to tag a Acella or CSX while it is moving?:)
I don't want to hear of some teens who died trying to tag a moving freight train.
I'am just playing. But I did have a pal 8 years ago that did this **it but I don't remember him tagging moving trains. I stoped hanging with him cause he went down the worng path (gangs, drugs, theft, contraband, etc.)
If the graffiti was done with crayons I would suspect a SubTalker...but spray paint? That could be anyone...
Touche!
E_DOG
The majority of this graff was done by AIR around 1990 & 91'. He was notorious for tagging in places few others had the balls to hit. they painted over the sere & bise stuff that was over the 59th street bridge just a few weeks back. all of that was done a long while ago, but Goal hit a bit by the end of the queens blvd. bridge sometime this last year.
balls of steel, or high on dust? who knows.
Dear the members of Subtalk
The last time I was here I may have said stuff to harm the good name of Subtalk. And I may have said some stuff to seem immature, mean or plain out dumb. For that I am Sorry. When I left I have learned alot about responcibility and I have matured alot. I can't say I changed completely but I can say I changed enough to take charge in my life and in my familie's life. I am not here to BS about how I changed. I am not here for forgiveness. I am here to accept responcibilities for my actions.
Paul Kelly
From NJT's web site via cut-and-paste:
*
The Newark City Subway extension will open June 22. Subway car service will be restored on weekends. As of June 21, the Heller Parkway Station will be closed. Customers are encouraged to obtain new schedules
It says here on trains.com that:
NJ Transit OKs $101.4 million for light rail cars
NJ Transit will spend $101.4 million to purchase 34 light-rail cars for expanded subway service in Newark and extensions of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail system. The agency's board of directors approved the purchase yesterday, The Associated Press reported.
The Hudson-Bergen system is to get 28 of the cars, which are part of a $554 million expansion from Hoboken Terminal to North Bergen (to be done in 2005) and in Bayonne (to open next year). The money will come from federal and state funds.
The remaining six cars are part of a $207 million expansion of the Newark subway that is to be done in 2005.
Which expansion are you referring to?
The extension is the NERL Newark Elizabeth RailLink which will connect Penn Sta. with Newark Broad Street station.
The two new stations (Grove Street and Silver Lake) and the closure of Heller Parkway Station.
So what expansion is the news article referring to?
There are going to be two extensions to the NCS - the one next week is the one past Branch Brook Park (ex-Franklin) into Bloomfield.
The one in 2005 is in downtown Newark, between Penn Station and Broad Street Station.
Has it become any more possible for the extension to Paterson to be built? I'm hoping for it, since the line would go within a half mile from my Uncle's house!
>>The Newark City Subway extension will open June 22. Subway car service will be restored on weekends<<
HOORAY !! And may that bus replacement rest in peace !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I know of 10 US cities with a Heavy Rail subway system-
1)Boston
2)New York
3)Philadelphia
4)Baltimore
5)Washington, DC
6)Atlanta
7)Chicago
8)Los Angeles
9)San Francisco
10)Miami (is it heavy rail or light rail??)
Are there any others?
I know many cities like Pittsburgh and Newark have Light Rail subways, but Im trying to focus mainly on Heavy Rail.
Camden NJ has a heavy rail system.
So does Newark and Jersey City depending on if you count PATH as a Subway or a Railroad.
I counted PATCO and PATH in Philly and NYC because they primarily serve those cities. PATH wouldn't have been built the way it was if it was just Hoboken-Newark, and PATCO wouldn't have been built as heavy rail to just serve Lindenwold-Camden. The Primary destination for them is NYC and Philly.
Actually, the PATCO line was built as a subway line b/t Camden and Philly and at the time Canden had a lot of clout and both terminals were "destinations" of eachother.
I just dont think there are very many Philadelphians commuting to Camden--I think for the most part NJ residents are commuting to Philly for their jobs.
Back in the day Camden was a huge employer with RCA and Cambells soup as well as a thriving downtown shoping district.
I'll ask my favorite question again: why is Chicago considered heavy rail?
The type of trains it operates, and the type of rail used. Normally when you talk of subways and els using standard subway/el equipment and powered by a 3rd rail, and the rail weighing more than 100 lbs/yd, then its heavy rail.
The Newark subway may have underground portions, but it uses Light Rail Vehicles and is powered with catenary.
so to clarify, the Norristown Line (ex P&W) which is third rail, prow, is?
and the Orange and Blue MBTA lines which use overhead are?
Maybe the rail profile and track engineering are the most objective, but see my other post vis-a-vis Cleveland.
The Norristown Line is more like a hybrid of the two...
It has third rail, fast speeds, and high level platforms characteristic of Heavy Rail
It has close stops and all of them are flag stops (you have to push the button to signal to stop). Fare control is on board, and usually they are single unit cars except for some peak times. Also, the headways are about 20 minutes. these are characteristic of light rail.
The MBTA Orange Line uses overhead wire? I thought only the Blue Line did.
mea culpa. you are correct.
and the rail weighing more than 100 lbs/yd, then its heavy rail.
MBTA uses 115 lbs/yard welded rail on its Green Line light rail.
I think the distinction between Heavy and Light rail really isn't one of equipment or catenary. For example, MBTA Blue Line is powered with a catenary and it is clearly heavy rail. I guess weird-ass examples on the MBTA isn't surprising, but what about the Skokie-Swift on CTA (Chicago)? That has several grade crossings. What about the Cleveland Red Line example we just talked about? What about NICTD? That's an FRA railroad. It's powered from catenaries. It has grade crossings too. And it has low platforms. So NICTD is a light rail? Yes, it might have been an interurban at one stage, but it's a bona fide railroad alright, especially when Chessie ran freight services over it...
The difference between Heavy Rail and Light Rail is one of concept more than anything else. Heavy Rail is a concept where there is an exclusive right of way and stops are further apart (about 800yds to 2 miles), and where there are grade crossings, the rail vehicle has priority. The rail vehicles are also decked to higher standards of comfort than light rail.
Light rail on the other hand, is the concept of bus-on-rails. The stops are closer together, and often there are acceleration and braking rates similar to buses. Even with the latest AC traction subway cars, the acceleration and braking rate on those are nothing like the rate on the PCC's. The downside to the light rail concept is that the vehicles have no priority at the grade crossings.
There are various examples of hybrids, for example MBTA Green Line D line really is a "heavy rail" line between Kenmore and Riverside, because that section used to be an NYNH&H Commuter Rail operation; east of Kenmore it is a light rail, being part of the old Boston trolley, even though it runs underground on exclusive right of way. The difference is in the stop spacing. Green Line vehicles are extremely uncomfortable, which is why I have always thought that the Riverside line should have been a commuter rail operation. That said, if it had remained a commuter rail, it probably wouldn't exist to day, so I'm glad they converted it to "light rail"...
On the other hand, Bus Rapid Transit is pushing the envelope even more -- it's not even a rail transit, but it has most of the light rail and some of the heavy rail properties.
Trackless trolleys are even more interesting...
So there. I don't think the light rail v.s. heavy rail characterization is useful anymore... If I were to design a subway, I would design it for comfort, for journey time, and for a sensible stopping pattern, with all those different properties of traditiaonlly different technologies in mind.
AEM7
I think the salient distinction between heavy rail and light rail is capacity. Heavy rail *can* run trains of six to eight cars (even if some systems, like the Red Line in Cleveland, don't), while light rail simply can't -- i.e., light rail isn't built to do that.
The other distinctions you mentioned, like separate ROW, also influence capacity and are part of this picture, to my mind.
Mvh Tim
Typically, when one thinks "Light Rail", trolleys come to mind first. With "Heavy Rail", one thinks subway or even railroad
Personally, I consider railroad to be involved with neither heavy rail nor light rail categories.
No street running, high level platforms, multi cars train, heavy I section rails.
Because the terminology s*$%*.
If you are trying to define categories of rail transit, the terms heavy and light are IMHO absurd. The Breda cars in SF are very heavy. The early CTA 6000's were PCC clones (and later rebuilds).
I have tried to distinguish the systems on "street running", "MU operation, on board fare vs. fare control systems. All of these distinctions however fail the test as there are glaring exceptions.
If you don't think CTA is 'rapid ransit' (my preferred term), then what makes it different from Boston's Red, Orange, Blue Lines? They all have some subway, some elevated, fare control, and are part of a metropolitan transit agency.
Fare control presents another problem--Cleveland, at one time the Dyre Ave line late nights, the Evanston CTA line in off hours and the lower end of the Myrtle all collected fares on board.
"Fare control presents another problem--Cleveland, at one time the Dyre Ave line late nights, the Evanston CTA line in off hours and the lower end of the Myrtle all collected fares on board."
David:
Since 1997, there is no longer on board collection of fares on the CTA. All the fare collection is now made using the CTA fare card to gain access to the platform.
When I first moved here in 1996, off hour fare collection was made by the conductor on Evantson, Ravenswood, and Lake Street. Since the last conductors were removed from the trains in 1997, handling of money has ceased on the trains.
As for the original question, I ask the person who poised it, what would you classify the CTA's 'L', and explain why it shouldn't come under the classification of heavy rail.
Jim K.
Chicago
The L absolutely should be considered heavy rail.
Thank you, but my question is to J C Gridlock, whose favorite question is "Why should Chicago be heavy rail".
What would he classify the system?
Jim K.
Chicago
and AFAIK fare collection on board has ceased on the Dyre as well. But what I was trying to point out was the impossibility of the criteria because NONE fit all of the cases / the standard for scientific method. 'Course I remember when 1-50 were built with fareboxes in the cabs for OPTO in Evanston. Around the time the IC cut back from 20 min headways on the So Chgo Branch in middays to 30 minutes.
I was aware, as David Vartanoff pointed out, that PCC cars were used on the L, and I know that during the World War II era streetcars actually rose from the street to operate on the Loop tracks. Even the blinker doors of the recent past suggest light rail.
My mistake is classing light vs. heavy on the size of the cars. That standard makes Chicago light, PATH & IRT medium and BMT/IND heavy. Thanks to all for mentioning the various other considerations.
"...during the World War II era streetcars actually rose from the street to operate on the Loop tracks." That statement is not true. The Chicago Rapid Transit ("L" and subway) and Chicago Surface Lines (streetcar) systems were completely separate.
Actually it was in the 1950's when the then new CTA made the decision to convert 570 of its 600 almost new 1947-48 Pullman Standard & St. Louis PCC streetcars to 'L' cars.
While the statement is correct regarding the conversion, the time period was not correct.
George is is correct that in the end of the WWII era, CTA was still two years from birth, thus the 'L' and the Surface Lines were two seperate entities.
Jim K.
Chicago
Very few Green Hornets ran for even ten years. I read that 4391, the only surviving car, was one of the last ones delivered.
Too bad I'm too young to remember them in Chicago....
> why is Chicago considered heavy rail?
Why wouldn't it be?
- Lyle Goldman
As I explained at the time, I thought the categories had to do with the size of the transit cars. Rereading the thread, I have to apologize for my PCC on the Loop comment; the person who told me is in his eighties. I no longer have to speculate on where streetcars ramped up to the L; it never happened!!
Cleveland has both light and heavy rail.
The Cleveland Red Line is a light rail line. Have you ever ridden it? It's like a pretend-heavy-rail. The cars have plastic windows that rattle, the whole car rattles, and it's only a one-car unit. Cleveland Red Line is very, very flimsy.
It was bult as a heavy rail line and I class it as heavy rail. It is 100% dedicated RoW with no grade crossings that operates with RR style grade and curve tolerance.
Some Heavy rail has grade crossings....the Chicago Brown Line has quite a few, if im not mistaken, and the L in Canarsie had one at East 105th until the 70s.
grade crossings on CTA Brown Line, Blue (Douglas) Line, and Purple (and many years back, the outer end of the Lake St (now Green) Line qhich had trolley wire instead of third rail..
As to Cleveland, the Red Line was indeed built to be a 'rapid transit' line high level platforms, barrier fare control, MU operation, and then the economy of the city was savaged and now the line maxes out at two car trains. It shares some ROW east of downtown with the older Shaker Heights Rapid Transit (a "light rail" operation completely on private ROW, with MU operation dating back to PCC days and earlier), In the joint service areas, there are high level platforms for the Red Line and low ones for the Blue/Green Shaker cars
Both lines are overhead catenary.
BART HQ is in Oakland, therefore Oakland has heavy rail.
Miami and Baltimore got the same cars from Budd, therefore Miami has a heavy rail system
>>> BART HQ is in Oakland, therefore Oakland has heavy rail <<<
BART has at least one underground station in Berkley also.
>>> BART HQ is in Oakland, therefore Oakland has heavy rail <<<
BART has at least two underground stations in Oakland as well as the headquarters.
San Juan Puerto Rico is constructing Tren Urbano rapid transit system with elevated structure and tunnels. I believe opening date is delayed due to some shoddy construction work.
I personally think they need to add a Dining Car to the Acela Express Trainset, and modify the Acela Cafe to the Cascades Cafe, because it looks so much nicer.
Here's a Poll, Which do you think is better Acela Express Trainset or Amtrak Cascades Trainset?
Of Course, I pick the Acela Express.
I wonder if passengers would aim to have a meal on a 3 hr. max trip. Besides, I don't know if AMTRAK could fund it in the first place.
BTW, does anyone know about AMTRAK's situation? Is it pretty much the same?
Why does anyone need a dining car between New York and Washington? Even if someone goes all the way from Washington to Boston, they still won't need a dining car, there is enough food in the cafe. Besides, they don't want people to linger in the cafe, that is why it is designed the way it is. It is meant to be uncomfortable, have little space to spread out, and make you want to go to your seat.
Just wondering, but have you even been on the Acela Express and if so, how many times?
I was on the Acela Express before, but just went inside to see how it looks at Penn Station after gettin off a NJT Train.
I was on the Acela Express before, but just went inside to see how it looks at Penn Station after gettin off a NJT Train.
Are you allowed to do that?
Ya, The Crew Men let me take a look around.
Never realized that. Thank you for the information. I've been on an AE trainset before, but not in service. It was at the Hoboken Festival in Hoboken, 2001.
Never realized that. Thank you for the information. I've been on an AE trainset before, but not in service. It was at the Hoboken Festival in Hoboken, 2001.
Cmon guys,
Plunk down the dough, a mere 38 bucks to metropark, 61 to Trenton or Stamford. Just catch a commuter back, or even better, save the best for last, and ride out to one of those places by NJT or MN, and then ride back on the AE. Even though 61 bucks is rather steep compared to NJTs 10 bucks, it is quite worth it for just a glimpse of this train. And while I am against it's overweight, french-bomb-trash, function following form design, I am willing to admit that whoever did the interior did know what they were doing.
I caught one of these about a year ago PHL-WAS, and a NED back. My first Amtrak trip in quite a while (12-13 years), and was impressed at all the room allotted to each passenger. Take a 737 and remove every other seat, and you get something like the Acela and Amfleet.
I realize that to a 14 year old, 61, or even 38 bucks is quite a bit, but if you have to explain it, just tell yourself that you are supporting rail travel in your own small way, at least thats how I justify all my rail excursions.
I am willing to admit that whoever did the interior did know what they were doing.
I couldn't disagree more. We have already discussed how the Cafe car is crap by design (wanting to "process" people as quickly as possible), and the lack of "tables" in the business class section is lamentable. The seats were actually remarkably commuter-like, and very uncomfortable compared to the long-distance Amfleets.
To me, the idea of the Acela Express should be to offer Amfleet-II type seating to an otherwise short-haul group of customers. That is part of the reason that makes NortheastDirect so competitive with the Acela. Given same type of seating and similar seat pitch, I pick the cheaper train thank you, even if it runs all of... 20 minutes slower between BOS and NYP. And you know what? If I pick NEDirect, I stand a chance of sitting in an Amfleet II if they suddenly have an equipment shortage; if I pick Acela, I know I would be sitting in one of those cattle trucks. Which one would YOU choose?
BTW, the Cafe Car people hate working the Acela cafes also. Most of them prefer the "bar" type counter found on the Amfleets and the Metroliners. If you have ever tried to work an Acela cafe car you would know that half the time you spend trying to dodge around all those shelves in the confined portion, and the customer turns and and see no one at the counter and walks away again.
AEM7 for ever more
Yes, it does seem that way. When I spoke to the cafe car attendant on my first Acela trip, he said he hated the cafe car. I guess that's why. But I do like the wide, high windows in the cafe car and I spent some time riding in the cafe car just to look out those windows.
"To me, the idea of the Acela Express should be to offer Amfleet-II type seating to an otherwise short-haul group of customers. That is part of the reason that makes NortheastDirect so competitive with the Acela. Given same type of seating and similar seat pitch, I pick the cheaper train thank you, even if it runs all of... 20 minutes slower between BOS and NYP. And you know what? If I pick NEDirect, I stand a chance of sitting in an Amfleet II if they suddenly have an equipment shortage; if I pick Acela, I know I would be sitting in one of those cattle trucks. Which one would YOU choose?"
The seats on the Acela Express is wayyyyyyyyyy better than the Amfleet-II Cars.
The Cafe Car? Like I said before they need to change that to the Cascades Cafe Car, I like the way they put a Map on the Ceiling in the Cafe Car. I remeber I said something about putting a Dining Car on the Acela Express, I realize that's a waste of money, but a Lounge Car might be perfect.
Please do not pay for a trip from NYP to Metropark. The Metropark stop is one of the most annoying stops on the whole run. To have people going from New York to Metropark just to see what the train is like would potentially cause delays, since they have had problems with the doors opening and closing at Metropark due to the curve in the station. My suggestion would be wait until you have somewhere to actually go, then take the Acela Express one way to get there. That is how I got my first two rides. I modified my schedule slightly so I could take it and got to ride it on the 15th day of operation (12/26/00) and again on May 9 (on the semi-super express, we stopped in Philly). And the further you go, the more you support Amtrak :-)
Many times when I have taken the AE, they make announcements saying "Would all guests please leave the train at this time, the train is ready to depart." I've been allowed to look inside first class before the train leaves as well.
Often, what happens is someone who is dropping someone off at the station will come down with a paying passenger, see the train, and then go back upstairs. At Boston, the first time I took it there, a large number of people came out to meet the train just to have a look inside. But, there is a major difference between looking around the train while it is stopped in a station and when you are actually a paying passenger who rides it while it is in motion.
Well I think the interior is superb to me. Since I am not experienced with railroad restaurants, at first I thought the Cafe car was not that bad.
Also, what does a couple of pair of seats installed on a slant towards the middle of the car have to do with anything?
Who ever said anything about a couple of pair of seats on a slant towards the middle? Did I miss something?
Towards the middle of certain AE cars, there is a couple set of seats that are not lined up with the rest of the rows of seating. What is the meaning to put the seats that way?
Those are supposedly conference seats. So you can have a eight-people conference in the middle of the car, rather than two four-people conferences.
The idea is a flop (in my humble view) because (1) The rest of the car do not appreciate being disturbed by a conference (2) The people who want a conference table do not want anyone else in the car overhearing their sensitive business conversation (3) The rest of the seats are airline seats -- horrible. They need more table seats, not slanted.
AEM7
I've taken the Acela Express twice, last Monday from NYC to New Haven and on March 10th from NH to NYC. Both times I sat in seats with a table in front of them. I personally had no problems with the seats, but then again 99% my train riding is done on the NYC subway, so Acela's seats were just fine to me. I definitely like the styling, both inside and out; it's exactly what I think a modern train should look like. But I defintely would like to ride the Talgo trains out in the Northwest to see what they are like and I hope to do so one of these days.
Does anyone know how to apply for these jobs? What are the requirements?
I found today's W-Q-N GO very confusing, isn't this plan better:
1. all Qs run from Prospect Pk to Coney Island
2. W runs from 57st to Coney Island/West End (how the other Q ran)
3. no N service between Qnsboro Plza and 86st (as it is already)
then:
4a. M extended to 86st and J terminates at Myrtle Av (Cresent Av-Myrtle Av shuttle)
--OR--
4b. J extended to 86st and leave M as it is
--OR--
4c. R runs to 86st and shuttle runs between 59st and 95st
5. shuttle bus not affected
one more correction- W runs to Times Sq/42st, not 57st
> one more correction- W runs to Times Sq/42st, not 57st
Why would that be better?
- Lyle Goldman
Because it's the only place trains could turn without delaying R's, which had to use the express tracks to get to 63rd.
I think the R line has been shafted enough by GOs recently, so in my opinion, 4c can go to hell.
I got those digital pics of the PATH landslide up. Total size is about 300k so just wait it out. Enjoy.
Here is the the view approaching the washout.
Here is a detail of the washout.
Here is a close up view of the washout.
I got those digital pics of the PATH landslide up. Total size is about 300k so just wait it out. Enjoy.
Here is the the view approaching the washout.
Here is a detail of the washout.
Here is a close up view of the washout.
Not good news. It could happen again.
So the question is, which is worse: landslide on the tracks or leaves on the tracks?
Well-placed or natural vegetation has always been the best way of preventing a landslide.
Keep it trimmed properly and you don't have to worry about it interfering with the trains.
#3 7 Avenue Express
Middays and Rush Hours: Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in the Bronx, from East 180 Street, The Bronx or 148 Street Manhattan to 14 St Manhattan NOTE: During rush hours Bronx train service extended to Nereid Avenue (East 238 Street)
Evenings and Weekends: Express stops in Manhattan from Harlem/148 St to 14 St
Night Service:
Harlem Shuttle
All stops from 148 Street to 135 Street Manhattan. Transfer to #2 for service to/from lower Manhattan or the Bronx
Summer Weekend Service: Express stops in Manhattan and all stops in The Bronx from East 180 Street The Bronx or 148 Street Manhattan (Weekends 10am-7pm).
#5 Lexington Avenue Express
Middays And Rush Hours:
Express Stops from Nereid Avenue (East 238 Street) or Dyre Avenue, The Bronx, through Manhattan, to Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn. NOTE Express stops in The Bronx on trips to Manhattan (AM hrs) and to The Bronx (PM hrs)
Evenings and Weekends: Express stops in Manhattan and all stops in the Bronx from Eastchester/Dyre Avenue, The Bronx, to Bowling Green, Manhattan.
Night Service
Dyre Avenue Shuttle
BRONX SERVICE ONLY: All stops from Dyre Avenue to East 180 Street. Transfer to #2 for service to/from Manhattan
Summer Weekend Service: Express stops from East 241 Street or Dyre Avenue, The Bronx, to Bowling Green, Manhattan (10am-10pm Saturday, 10am-8pm Sunday). Express stops in The Bronx on trips to Manhattan (10am-2pm) and to the Bronx (2pm-8pm).
No more shuttle buses for #3 riders, hooray!
NOTE: Times indicate when last train will be released
Add your changes if you want
You don't need that much service on White Plains Road and what is the purpose of the summer express thing?
Well maybe the #3 train can just go to E 180th then if WPR gets too crowded, but there are a lot of people on WPR. SInce the #5 will be express all day (just about) the #3 will take it's place as local.
You can't do that! There will be no service from local WPR stations to Lexington Avenue and the 5s don't come all that often. All the people waiting on WPR can wait for the trains under the current service plan. If WPR gets that much service middays, what about all the other lines to the Bronx? Let's establish 3 minute headways on the 6 middays, bring back the 9 middays, and have the D go express on the Concourse with the B to BPB middays as well.
When I said express I only meant 3 Avenue 149 Street -East 180 Street.
Bronx Park East, Pelham Parkway, etc will still have local #5 service. I heard that most of the ridership between 149-180 is mostly 7th avenue anyway.
Oh yeah, take the #2 or the #3 to 149 Street Grand Concourse and wait for the #4 or the #5
I tend to disagree about the White Plains Road service...the No. 2 is ALWAYS crowded, even at 3 a.m.
I have taken that train my entire life, and have stood with hundreds of people at downtown train stations late at night, waiting for No. 2's running on half hour or more schedules.....I couldn't even begin to count the times I've waited up to 45 minutes for a 2. Talk to anyone who lives in the Bronx.
When the R160 cars arrived, what lines will they be assigned to.
I know the A Line will have these cars when they come, because If I'm not mistaken the R-38's and R-44's are supposed to by scrapped.
it could also be like the 7, where it got R62A indirectly from the (I think that they were first sent to 240 yard)6 which replaced the redbirds(R36WF), so R36WF cars were replaced by the R142a, which were on the 6
Also the R44s will not be replaced by the Base R160 order
those replaced will be the R38, R40S, R42CI, (possibly the R32GE)
Whatever line they are needed on. Considering none have been made, why even speculate where they will run? Also, in response to Acela Express, they don't have to do a replacement for the cars being scrapped. They could always put the R160 on a different line, move the displaced cars to the A (if the R38s and R44s were to be scrapped, this won't necessarily happen), and your whole theory is thrown out.
I did see a paper on the Feb. Citizens Advisory meeting where TA officials said they are planned to go to the A, at least at first.
Just about everything goes to the 'A' first.
-Hank
I didn't know you could see the future! The R160 arrived? Where?
Considering you can see they have arrived, you should be telling US where they will be assigned.
-Hank
The will be very likely assigned to ENY and Coney. ENY will get cars mated in 4, Coney 5.
Since I am on a J/Nassau theme lately perhaps someone can verify if this took place. Perhaps 20 years ago I remember that leaving Canal St. on the J heading towards Jamaica when the train entered that big curve for the Bowery, the track was brought over from the local to the express track and made the station stop at the Bowery on the Jamaica bound express track. There is no wall seperating the two tracks at that point so it could be done. This was not a switch. It was straight rail. I don't know why this was done and as we all know, the track is now back to its own normal route on the local. It has been so long now that I am not sure it really happened anymore. Did it?
There aren't even any switches in place that would permit this movement now.
Are you sure your train didn't begin on one of the stub-end ("express") tracks at Canal?
Yes, I had gotten on the train at Chambers. I hope I wasn't dreaming. As the train entered the big curve between Canal and The Bowery the track was shifted from the local to the express. This was about in the early eighties. I wondered why they did it, if they did it? Thanks.
I couldn't tell you for sure, since I didn't start working the East regularly until 1991, but it could have been a temporary realignment of the track, much like track 2 through Stillwell Avenue currently, or the picture of the new R-32 in Greller's book approaching Newkirk Ave. in 1964 while the Brighton line platforms were being extended.
You mean this:
BTW, that's an 8-car train of R-27/30s.
They did somthing similar some time around 1993 - 1995, when they were rebuilding the street ovepasses on the Brighton. They would switch northbound trains over onto the express tracks at Kings Highway, then they would stop at temporary wooden platforms that were placed over the local tracks at Avenue M and Avenue J (offset from teh regular platforms so that they wouldn't be over the overpass that was being replaced), then, before Avenue H, the express tracks would swing over and join the local tracks so that the train could stop at Avenue H and the later local stations. There was no express service the entire time this reconstruction was going on.
subfan
I've seen photos of that, but never saw any temporary platforms in person. I must not have ridden on the Brighton line during that time. I did ride on it once in 1995 while the Manhattan Bridge was closed. The Q made all local stops, entered Manhattan via the Montague St. tunnel, and ran express up Broadway. The line was all R-68s, and occasionally you'd get lucky and get a train with the half cab on the lead motor facing out.
That's a different picture than the one I saw, but basically tells the same story. Never saw that one before, thanks.
Check Out the Latest High Speed Diesel Trainset from Talgo America, This Trainset hit 152 mph:
Talgo XXI High Diesel Trainset
Probbably only in tests as an electric...
Full compliance with Tier I FRA applicable regulations and/or with all applicable APTA, AAR, NTSB, FDA and EPA standards.
Ok. APTA, check. AAR, check. NTSB, check. EPA , check. FDA!?!? Ok, If you ever have that craving for a Talgo at 2am, remember, it's FDA approved!
US operational speed: 125mph (diesel/electric version). (European operational speed: 135 mph diesel version, and 140 electric version.)
More FRA insanity at work.
Equipped with a three (3) MJ Crash Energy Management System and roof escape hatch.
Roof escape hatch?
Power at wheel: 1,972 horsepower (1,450 kW)
Ahhh, diesel performance...
paste in.............
http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=showMyPhoto&albumID=40831500&photoID=40831646&security=yCsIRg
then vote ..........good photo ?? bad photo ????.........!
look under the following also
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
look at the one diesel trainz photo...
what do U think ??...........
thankz
salaamallah
Looks like your first link is restricted to users only.
For your photo on a scale from 0 to 5, I'd rate it a 3 in terms of quality. Use a better color film. In terms of posterity, I'd rate it a 4.5. I like the angle. I'm sure all your photos are good. I'd think no one would waste their film on bad photos.
I dunno 'bout that. *I* certainly took a lot of poor photos. But then, those were taken when I was 13-14 years old when I didn't know better, couldn't afford a decent camera, didn't kow about, or couldn't afford the right films either. Kinda hard to pay for all that with a newspaper route in those days....
Now that I'm older 'n wiser....
For me, an average of $50 will get you a decent focus free camera (not one of those cheap ones) and just buy a store brand film. I got mine from KIRKLAND Signature, or known as COSTCO. $14 will get you around 12, 24 exp. films on a 400 quality film.
400's are decent enough, I don't see the use of 800 quality films as I am not a professional user and they're more expensive.
200's are not too shabby but I prefer 400's.
"you a decent focus free camera"
What a contradiction that is...
-Robert King
All the photos that I took when I was railfanning was taken by a focus free camera. Using a 400 quality film, right light and angle, processed regularly (not the 1 hour photo) at COSTCO, where I bought the film and camera, the pictures come out pretty decent to me.
I can show you all of my photos that I took (I only have that camera) if you wish.
Ok, I know, I was being mean... However, you'll notice a night and day difference between taking pictures with that method and taking pictures with a focusable camera, focused right on the train you're photogaphing. Without getting heavily into photography to explain it, if you focus right on the subject of your picture, it is possible to use much slower film AND get much better pictures too (partly due to the slower film). The focus-free route works, and you can get good pictures from it. But it's so easy to go from good to better, especially considering how little it costs now to pick up a used camera and 50mm lens (a friend of mine did for $200 Canadian and his slides have improved dramatically - it is definately worth the investment).
-Robert King
When exposed, 200-speed film can be pushed in a lab to simulate 400-speed film results.
I started out taking so-so pictures, too, even though I was a little older (17 or 18) than you were when you started, but I had been out of the hobby for a number of years before that point.
There's definately a period of time where you get the hang of taking good pictures and a period of 'wealth accumulation' time before you can afford good camera equipment, film and processing services. All of that is needed before well composed pictures taken with so-so equipment and film stock improve on the technical side on account of being able to buy better film and lenses etc.
-Robert King
it was done with a digital cam then ran thru abobe U have to enlarge it 2 see how it really looks ~!
look at the diesel tranz shot again
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
**********************************************************
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
thankz
Several times especially if there are no seats on the train and I want to look out the window, I'd stay in the vestibule area. Boy how I had to withstand those excessive noises coming from the wheels hitting switches and gaps! Not only that but also all of the drag (air resistance), the sound just comes through the metal.
One conductor came by me and asked "How can you stand it?" He passed by, but I had the thinking.
Do engineers have to deal with all the noises coming from the vestibule since they operate in a sort of vestibule?
Dude, those "excessive noises" are a Railfan's dream. It's like riding a Railfan roller coaster with full 6 channel surround sound. The best ride I ever had was riding in the rear vestabule on the Amtrak Three Rivers on the Amtrak Harrisburg Line with jointed rail at 90mph. THUMP BUMP THUMP BUMP THUMP BUMP THUMP BUMP THUMP BUMP Boy it was a thrill!!!
Yes, in fact I enjoyed the noises I heard but too much will make your ears hurt no matter how much you like them! Too much of anything's not good.
Close to 3 weeks ago, someone had the end door switch set to manual on a Comet IV car, so whenever someone opened it, it wouldn't close back. The train would start and the passengers would be hearing a whole mess of loud clankety clank sounds, and would close the door. I guess it was disturbing to them but I liked it!
The engineers work in sort of "half" of a vestibule, the bulkhead door seals up the area where the other vestibule would normally be. In the other parts of the train, where you would have been standing, that bulkhead door is not there, so the outside noises come right in from any exposed areas.
Wouldn't it still be loud? Have you been in an engineer's cab to experience?
Not really, since pretty much everything that is making noise is behind you. The worst thing is probably the wind whistling through a small hole in the seal of one of the various doors, but that can be solved by opening a window.
Plus some of the noise is made by the various things between cars scraping against each other, and since there is no car in front there is nothing to scrape.
Not really, since pretty much everything that is making noise is behind you.
What do you mean? If I stand in the vestibule, I am at the bulk of the two trucks of the consecutive cars that I can see. The noise accompanied to me 100% of the time (besides slowing and in a stopped posiiton) is the drag which is inevitable since NJT Arrows have almost 100% drag if you notice their design. (too much wasted electricity!)
Plus some of the noise is made by the various things between cars scraping against each other,
Not really. I only hear the scrapes if the train runs through gaps and seems to be "bumpy". Switches and gaps are the real noise makers with the wheels of the trucks hitting them ever so loudly.
I admit it. The Astoria El thread was a TERRIBLE idea! I had no idea that so many Subtalkers were so narrow minded, so stupid, so ignorant, as to get that vitriolic over a fellow poster's airing of HIS personal opinion. This Board has been reduced to a joke, a popularity contest, a forum for ass kissing and consensus, rather than a forum for the airing of ideas. As a writer of a book on transit, I have been often often criticized for being so narrow minded as to write a book on trains. They have said that railfans are kooks and you nitwits have proven them (for the time being at least) right. That is unfortunate for to be a Railfan does not mean that you have to be intolerant and ignorant. That is the real tragedy of these past few days, for all of you could be so, so much more.
E_DOG
sorry pal but your DEAD WRONG.it may have been your opinion but before you said it you should of looked at the facts about it which was its daily and annual ridership totals.seeing as they are in the thousands and millions respectively,saying something like that wasnt very smart to begin with.you shouldve just kept it to yourself and that wouldve been that.you cant expect every el structure to just get taken down,it doesnt work that way,just like life isnt as easy as many people think.
Holy cow!!!
Maybe I need to start thinking about my posts before I post them, because what I have to say may not be smart.
Do you think we should apply for permission before we post, and our posts should be researched to make sure we're not wrong, before we're allowed to post?
If someone posts something that I think is wrong, or I totally disagree with, I ignore that post. There's plenty of topics that I want to read about, rather than dealing with ones I don't like.
While the SUBTALK is a great avenue for the exchange of ideas and comments, it can get very heated at times....yes....some people need to "cool down" at times and not get "bent-out-of-shape" when someone does not understand all the facts. I come here to learn from what other people have to say about an issue or an observation.
NO one should have to do research prior to posting a question/statement, just be prepared for good/bad comments....that's what freedom of expression is all about. One should not be fearful of the so called "experts" either. Again, we are all here to comment and debate if necessary on topics that interest us.
We defend the Astoria El because we use it daily. If this El was to shut down, there would be mass confusion and over crowding on the bus lines the next morning. Anyone who has had to travel during a dispuption of servive knows this very well.
The line is not perfect. Far from it! But for us commuters who live or work or go to school in Astoria. it is the ONLY way for us to travel to and from Queensboro Plaza. We hope there are no problems on the line this afternoon. And if there are, we expect TA to have their people working on it. Having it fixed by the next time we have to ride on it this evening.
When you post a provocative idea, back it with as many facts as possible, or float the idea then be prepared with facts to back it up.
You were really expecting that you would propose that an el be torn down and have people say "yeah, if a piece of the Astoria el fell on somebody's car, I'd think that tearing it down is the right solution."?
:D
"When you post a provocative idea, back it with as many facts as possible, or float the idea then be prepared with facts to back it up."
Have you considered the alternative, which is when someone posts a provocative idea and won't back it up, to just ignore him?
"When you post a provocative idea, back it with as many facts as possible, or float the idea then be prepared with facts to back it up."
Have you considered the alternative, which is when someone posts a provocative idea and won't back it up, to just ignore him?
Well, I was speaking to the original poster. That's advice for potential respondents.
The original post was on topic, if not very convincing of its stated position. I think it's a fair question to ask if els should be torn down or not, but, especially on a board where people are inclined to favor els, you need to make more of a position than E_DOG did in order to hope to get reasoned responses, IMO.
You have a point. Your writing of a book on subway trains was a magnificent achievement. And, yes, some of the responses posted to your opinion about the El were personal and vitriolic in nature and not reasoned responses.
But opposition to the taking down of the Astoria El is based on solid reasoning. I personally would favor the El's replacement by a new subway line, hopefully also extended to the Bronx or the airport or East Elmhurst, which needs and wants subway service. This way, train service is maintained but the El structure goes away. However, the dismantling of an elevated line and its replacement by buses has occurred in the Bronx and in Manhattan - and years later all of us have come to regret it. It's important not to repeat mistakes like that.
In the meantime, if it's important to you, write to MTA advocating for better El maintenance.
But opposition to the taking down of the Astoria El is based on solid reasoning. I personally would favor the El's replacement by a new subway line, hopefully also extended to the Bronx or the airport or East Elmhurst, which needs and wants subway service. This way, train service is maintained but the El structure goes away.
See now, that's a reasonable response. The original way it was presented by EDOG in the deleted thread to just tear down the el is what caused the outlash. Too many times in the history of the subway els were removed before they were replaced by buses, causing hardships to the riders. There is now way you can destroy the Astoria el, and expect all those passengers to squeeze into buses, on congested roadways and expect that their commute won't become a nightmare. That's a step backwards, not forwards.
Even if the original post would have been presented as, Rip down that "piece of junk el", and replace it with a subway or some other viable solution given (not cramming all the riders in to buses on already congested streets) the responses would not have been as negative. It's the way that it was presented that got the really negative responses.
In other threads it has been suggested many times to replace els with subway. Currently there is a thread going on about getting rid of the Jamaica el and replacing it with some sort of subway. I can almost guarantee that that thread will not spiral out of control like the Astoria thread did. Sure there will be people for and against the idea, but at least it was presented resonably. The Astoria thread was presented in a way similar to waving a red flag in front of a bull. The responses could have been expected to come as they did.
E DOG, I would be one of the first to defend your absolute right to the expression of any and all opinions, but there are two factors that you should take into account:
1) If you suggest something as unthinkable as shutting down a important rapid transit link (remember the lessons of 3rd Avenue El, Jamaica El, Myrtle El, etc.) on this board, which overwhelmingly supports rapid transit, you are going to have to deal with Bronx cheers, and rightfully so.
2) Even though opinions are and should flow without discord here, this forum is NOT a democracy IMO, and posts that don't pertain to rapid transit are verboten. That's not the case with this post, but it is with others you've posted.
"If you suggest something as unthinkable as shutting down "
Well, clearly, it *wasn't* unthinkable, because he just thought of it.
Elias
Thinkable to him, unthinkable to the rest of us.
"Thinkable to him, unthinkable to the rest of us."
Well, I have to admit that *I* NEVER thought of it!
Elias
To HIM, perhaps, unthinkable to the rest of us.
WEll you Freakin stop with it already ENOUGH! GOD DAMN! WE know your opoion on it im tired of this bullshit. Can You all just cut the fucking shit out. WE all know what he thinks he may not be right but he has a right to that opinon. Let it go already all of you. Please for the love of god. I dont want this board shut down again becuase of people being fucking stupid. Just cut the crap already
Annoyed,
Adam
I don't think there is any need for such language on the this board. One contributor expressed concern that his company's IT department would block the site because such words might set off the obsenity filter.
Please be a little more considerate, there are much more expressive ways to convey your position.
Thanks
One opinion begets another and I posted mine as well. But I am a bit surprised that someone such as yourself who has taken the time to research the subway system and write a book about it would make a statement without supporting documentation. The defenders of the El on the other hand had statistical data to support their positions.
Yes - you have a right to your opinion - but we also have a right to prove our points and we did so with facts.
I guess the thing is, I'm looking at it from the side of the people who live in the El's shadow. I like Els, but that is irrelevant. You speak of the people who ride the line but you have nothing to say about the plight of the people who live and work beneath it. Walk along its length, and see how many would object to its being torn down. Their answers might surprise you. True knowledge comes not from books or quoting a bunch of facts. It comes from living. You see the El only from trackside. I see its impact from beneath the tracks. That is where my "facts" come from for that is where I know the truth lies.
E_DOG
I guess the thing is, I'm looking at it from the side of the people who live in the El's shadow. I like Els, but that is irrelevant. You speak of the people who ride the line but you have nothing to say about the plight of the people who live and work beneath it. Walk along its length, and see how many would object to its being torn down.
It's just presented as a vendetta singled out against just that el. WHat you say is true, a lot of people who live along the el may want it gone. But at the same time, the same could be true for ANY el still in existence. It's true for the Broadway/Jamaica el, the west End, the Culver, all the Bronx els, etc. Don't you think you will find people along all of those els also wanting it's removal because it may be considered a blight?
Why just a vendetta against the Astoria el? If you feel you want to help the plight of people having to "endure" living under the Astoria el, your reasoning should apply to almost ALL the els. It would be absurd to say we have to "remove" all the els because of the "plight of the people who live and work around them". It would cripple the system. And to say, let's say the West End el, is less of a nuisance to the people around it that the Astoria el also doesn't work. The fact is an el does pretty much "ruin" a street, to an extent, but they all do, but at the same time to remove it without a replacement subway or something would "ruin" the community even more. It still does have an important use....it moves a tremendous amount of people fairly easily....much faster and easier than a replacement set of busses would.
"I guess the thing is, I'm looking at it from the side of the people who live in the El's shadow. I like Els, but that is irrelevant. You speak of the people who ride the line but you have nothing to say about the plight of the people who live and work beneath it."
The people who work and live beneath it also depend on the El, in large part. I grew up in the Bronx along the "4" train and I am sure some do suffer from the noise and lack of sunshine. But they themselves would not want rail service taken away from them. Suggest to them that subway service be cancelled and most likely these same people will "run you out of Astoria on a rail." Now, push the MTA to replace the El with an underground line, ADA-compliant stations, new street lighting and beautification to accompany it, and you'll have a lot of support.
"Walk along its length, and see how many would object to its being torn down. Their answers might surprise you. True knowledge comes not from books or quoting a bunch of facts. It comes from living. You see the El only from trackside. I see its impact from beneath the tracks. That is where my "facts" come from for that is where I know the truth lies."
It sounds to me like you formed an opinion, then sought out only those opinions which agreed with yours.
My hostility towards this line goes back twenty years and is gounded on many personal observations. To my knowledge I am the first poster to go to war with the ENTIRE board and I'm the one with the most to lose because I'm the one who'se been promoting his book. I would not have taken these hits had I not felt VERY STRONGLY about my position.
E_DOG
Hey, I didn't go to war with you, E DOG.
You didn't go to war with the ENTIRE board. :)
Of course you're right. That was a poor choice of words on my part.
E_DOG
And, actually, for the record, I WOULDN'T go to war with you about your opinion.
There have been people on this board, who in the course of a thread (not THIS one, just to be clear..), said some really nasty and insulting things to me, and if you were to ask them (although I would never name them), they would tell you (if they even remembered it)that I don't get mad or nasty in return...in fact, last time someone attacked me, and said a few really nasty things to me, we came away friends.
I didn't get into the fray about your post because I simply don't get mad about people's opinions, especially in a discussion.
If you don't like the astoria El, that's fine, it doesn't affect me or my opinions or how I feel about anything.
In closing, you and I or ANYONE who I've ever posted back and forth with have never been at war.
Anthony "J-Train Tony" Lener
It's posts like these (and this is for all who post flames) that surprises me when subtalk is still around everytime I come back to log on. I don't know how Dave doesn't lose his patience and starts another hiatus, or abolishes this board altogether. -Nick
He is a virtuous man.
The solution is not posting something that you know will be flamebait.
Flamebait could be anything. That's the problem. There's really no way to tell how you guys will react in advance. You express your honest opinion and let the chips fall where they may. Who knows, YOU may be the next one the Board goes after.
E_DOG
Hmm... I shouldn't but i will...
"I had no idea that so many Subtalkers were so narrow minded, so stupid, so ignorant, as to get that vitriolic over a fellow poster's airing of HIS personal opinion. "
way to go winning over the crowd. expressing opinions is just fine, but when your opinions and ideas aren't exactly smart ones based in reality, what do you expect? did you really honestly think people would agree with you that ANY part of the subway system ought to be removed?
"This Board has been reduced to a joke, a popularity contest, a forum for ass kissing and consensus, rather than a forum for the airing of ideas."
when did this happen? i've never seen much ass kissing in these parts, and i've seen ideas aired every day. usually they're ideas on how to expand the system. yours is to remove a part of it (without a good logical reason). maybe you oughta find a pro-car, anti-transit website to post on? you might get a better response.
"As a writer of a book on transit, I have been often often criticized for being so narrow minded as to write a book on trains."
Anyone can write a book. that doesn't make your ideas any more valid. Just as an example, hitler wrote a book...
"They have said that railfans are kooks and you nitwits have proven them (for the time being at least) right. That is unfortunate for to be a Railfan does not mean that you have to be intolerant and ignorant. That is the real tragedy of these past few days, for all of you could be so, so much more. "
kooks? a railfan is no more a kook than someone obsessed with old cars, women with too many shoes in the cloest, etc. everyone has their dementia.
if your opinion has been met with intolerance, maybe you need to stop pointing a finger of blame at those heckling you and think about your delivery of the opinion, and the audiance your trying to deliver it to - and even the merits, logic, and reality of your opinion - because quite frankly your opinion has no logic. "the line only has 5 stops, so let's take it down'? i could see maybe if they were 5 underused stops, but with the exception of 39th av, that's not reality. you said it oughta be taken down because bits were falling off of it in the 1970's and 1980's - guess what? everything owned by the city at the time was neglected. the god damn city was bankrupt for petes sake!
i've lived in astoria my entire life, through good times and bad, and i've heard nothing but praise in the last 10 years for how the line has been served. ever sicne the switch from the r to N, it's been damn nice. even before that, all things considered in perspective with the rest of the system at the time, it was a good line. it's structurally in great shape, and i dare say if you took your opinion to one of the stations in the morning, and asked people to sign a petition to have the line removed, you'd end up getting a lot worse treatment that the few insults you've gotten around this board.
Double that!
Double that!
If you want to be a Car Moses on the AAA's website!
I guarantee that those people you refer to don't live under the El. I guarantee that they haven't had their cars or other property destroyed by it, and I guarantee that they don't own businesses that are in perpetual shadows beneath it. The only people who REALLY love an El are those of us who don't have to deal with it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
E_DOG
I guarantee that those people you refer to don't live under the El.
Oh? I highly doubt that.
I guarantee that they haven't had their cars or other property destroyed by it,
Most Astoria residents don't have cars.
and I guarantee that they don't own businesses that are in perpetual shadows beneath it.
The el may be unpleasant to those businesses but it carries their customers. Without the el, many of those businesses would no longer be in business. Look at Jamaica.
The only people who REALLY love an El are those of us who don't have to deal with it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
No, the people who REALLY love the Astoria el -- or, rather, the people who would most vehemently object to your calls for its removal -- are the people who depend on it to get them from point to point. I find it amusing that the only person here who has proposed that it be torn down doesn't even live in the same state as the el, let alone the same neighborhood. Maybe things are different where you live, but here, the subway system is not a toy that can be played with for fun -- aside from walking, it is our primary mode of transport. The Astoria el serves an invaluable purpose; its aesthetics are irrelevant.
The only people who REALLY love an El are those of us who don't have to deal with it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
By that reasoning, all the els should be removed, and replaced with busses.....but that would be absurd. The Astoria el is no more annoying than any of the other els in the city for the people around them. I don't feel that's a valid reason for removing the Astoria el.
I know someone that lives in full view of the el and likes it. he's not even a rail fan.
anyone that lives under the el knew what they were getting into before they moved there. it's their own stupid problem if they don't like it there. no one told them to live under the el. you don't move near a location and then complain that it is there, because you're not going to get any sympathy from anyone.
Most stores around the el at 30th av, ditmars, 36th and b'way stay in business due to their proximity to the el and its associated foot traffic - the other businesses are car repair shops, gas stations, warehouses, a deli/resturant kitchen supply place by 36 av... these are all places that have no problem being by the el. and might even have lower rent because of it - so unfortunately for you, your logical that the el is destroying businesses is flawed and incorrect. the very reason many of them stores stay in business is the el. Don't believe me? Go ask some of them store owners for yourself.
As for property damage. I defy you to find me a significant number of newspaper articles or complaints about anyone having property damaged by anything falling off of the el wthin the last 15-20 years. I want you to go door to door, get the names and numbers of people who've had property or cars damaged by items falling off of the el. go ahead. try it. you'll be wasting a lot of time because it simply doesn't happen any more than parts of planes falling from the sky.
I suspect you have the astoria el confused with the hell gate bridge (which also goes over astoria). for a long time the hell gate had ballast and other items falling from it - and it goes over residental areas - so them people had a valid complaint. the problem here was that the bridge was not maintained since the new haven days and neither conrail or amtrak wanted to foot the whole bill. finally government money went into it and so far as i know, there hasn't been one complaint about the bridge since its mid 90's overhaul and repainting. (amtrak, of course, does quite well with the line now that it's electrified to boston, and conrail (thank god) is gone - leaving CSX, P&W and CP to service the line - all of whom are apparently doing increasingly better and getting more god damned trucks off the LIE (especially with LIRR out of the picture and NYA doing LI freight)(heard CP is hauling a lot of stone to LI now, and if they ever get into 65th street yard, will likely finally increase service from 3 nights a week to 5...).
In conclusion, you are WRONG. completely and totally. don't bother replying, because you know you're wrong and i'm not going to be kind enough to explain it to you any further. I'm done, finished, said all there is to say, and won't be bothering to reply to anything else you might have to add - beacuase you're wrong. plain and simple. Do yourself and this board a favor, and don't come around talking out of your ass (for lack of a better way of putting it) with no factual information to back up your opinions, because you will ever so kindly (or maybe not so kindly) be called on your ill informed opinions and thus find yourself in the 'hall of besmirched subtalkers'.
schools out. have a good one.
Besmirched Subtalker? I like it. That means I have the guts to express and stick by my opinions.
E_DOG
Please! Okay. We don't need Dave to shut it subtalk again!
This whole thread seems very stupid to me, perhaps because I came on after a two-day hiatus and didn't catch the opening thread. But the idea of suspending the Astoria El seems dimwitted to me. What are we going to do with it, tear it down? People going to Astoria need transportation and as it is very little subway service goes to that neighborhood anyway. What was this all about anyway. Is there really something afloat to discontinue it. If I had my druthers, however, I wouldn't send the N there, though. I have always said that. The Sea Beach should run as the Broadway Express from 42nd Street to Coney Island as it was intended. But you have heard that one before, too.
I will concede that I made a mistake in saying that it should be replaced with buses. A subway would be much better however I don't think the MTA has the sense to build one. In the meantime, people living alongside that horrid line are needlessly suffering.
E_DOG
I don't think the MTA has the sense to build one.
The money, you mean. And if the money were available elsewhere, I can think of a dozen better places to spend it.
In the meantime, people living alongside that horrid line are needlessly suffering.
It's not horrid (no moreso than any other el), it's not needless (no moreso than any other transit link), and nobody's suffering (any moreso than near any other el).
I think The Joe hit the nail on the head -- you're thinking of the wrong elevated line in Astoria.
If I had my druthers, however, I wouldn't send the N there
I agree! - Bring back the T, QB, and QT !!!!!
I don't know what your problem is, but you barging in here and acting like a schmuck over a stupid el isn't exactly making one of the best impressions. You think your own opinion is so great, that anyone who tells you otherwise are stupid and kissass morons. Well, news flash, sir. People DO use the Astoria el. But you don't seem to understand that.
Hell, I don't like the idea that the Q is running on Broadway. So what? Am I going to throw a hissy fit and post about how the Broadway line should be abandoned? But on the other hand, I have to admit that Subtalk can get a bit heated. And some of us just get caught in this kind of thing. Can you blame them? People have their likes and dislikes.
But expressing your vendetta against a harmless elevated subway line. PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD LIVE NEAR ELEVATED RAILWAY LINES. Be it the Astoria El in New York, the Kwun Tong Line in Hong Kong, Ligne #6 in Paris or even the U-bahn in Berlin...there are people living those els, and many others. They bitch about it, sure. There are people who want it gone. But subways are for the general good, and having them demolished by the voice of the minority does a rather horrendous disservice to the majority, am I not correct?
If you have a problem with a simple el, then you can say that. But simply suggesting that it be torn down in that kind of fashion is uncalled for, and in a way, was asking for trouble. And also, advance scouting of any message board before joining into the discussion always helps, and obviously, you didn't do your homework when it came to Subtalk.
When I first came here, I was pretty much accepted into the family. But you, on your entrance, decide to make an entry with a flourish. You have to be the one to grab everyone's attention. People tried to correct you with logic, but obviously you think you are so important that your opinion is the only thing that matters, and that because YOU lived under an el and had a bad experience, means that everyone has to agree with you that the Astoria el should come down.
We are so much more...unfortunately, it is you who need to broaden your mind. Oh yeah, and insulting us and calling us things that are untrue isn't really helping your case.
-John Leung
I don't like the idea that the Q is running on Broadway.
Why? It BELONGS on Broadway.
Are you one of those people who got so used to the Q being on 6th Avenue in the 80s and 90s, you forgot it was really a Broadway line "temporarily" rerouted onto 6th Avenue? Remember July of last year? People were thinking the Q was being rerouted off its normal route. Yeah, it does seem sort of strange at first to have it on Broadway but not it seems normal.
6th Avenue-B, D, F
Broadway-N, Q, R, W
The V didn't exist in July. Note that with the exception of the W, the Broadway Line uses all available letters between N and R. O and P can't be used for reasons previously discussed here. The B, D, and F naming comes from the old IND designations which are no longer followed since the B/C flip-flop in 1998.
That was supposed to be an example, people!! That was supposed to bring up a fact.
Oops, I meant point, not fact. (Excuse the typo.)
Uh, EDOG, has been posting here for well over a year, probably longer. And it wasn't him that was acting like a schmuck, it was the idiots who responded to his original post who started the flames. He said his opinion very calmly, and the others started crying about it. So rightfully, he had to defend himself aganist the other morons who started attacking him.
But still...I'm only weighing in on this matter. I didn't say he was completely wrong...he just defended himself in the wrong way, with a very bad attitude.
Let me be the first to say it is a mess, chaos like crazy. That G.O. started tonite 12am. First thing first this was my trip step by step. I was working out of Dyre and finish at 23:07. My car was at Utica because that where I was on Board and picked up a job that started out of New Lots Yard. OK here it goes like I said I finish at 23:07 so I caught the 23:18 Dyre to E180 transfer to the 2 which told 10mins. Ok transfer at 149 GC for the 4 what a big mistake. Because I didn't know about that G.O. being that I haven't worked many jobs pass midnite lately. Ok the 4 was suppose to go local from 125 to BB but a 6 stalled so we went express down to 42nd street than local to BB. Once at BB we got off and was told to go to the uptown platform for a uptown train that was going back downtown. O yeah I can't forget this they only had one platform worker on the downtown side. Ok so we go the the uptown platform to wait for a 4. Low and behold the 4 we was on went around the loop and open its door. So of course everyone jumps on thinking this is the train. I knew it wasn't but you know these people. Ok after getting off the train we were waiting and waiting and waiting but no train. Two 4 trains and Two 6 trains came and went around the loop and back uptown but no downtown train. Finally a 4 train comes on the uptown platform filled with people. Now these people have to get off and cross the platform for the uptown 4 or 6. But they were just as clueless as the rest of the people. So now you have people on the platform rushing into the train and people on the train getting off but not all of them. Because again their clueless on whats going on. Ok finally we're off back downtown. But wait we still have the single track thru the tube. So we sitting in Wall Street for 10 mins for 2 uptown 4 to go pass. Now its our turn thru the tube finally in brooklyn local of course. Now I'm at my stop of Utica to get my car at 01:40. Now this is the funnies part of this whole thing. That nightmare was at midnite hour (Imagine the chaos around in the morning and afternoon and early evening) Thanks God I'm off weekends
Friday morning I got a rare chance to see the DM change over from Diesel to electric mode while it was waiting around in the Kew Gardens station. The train was headed Westbound and was discharging passengers and I was uniquely positioned on an overpass nearby. I always had the impression for some reason that the process would be lengthly, but as I saw on Friday, it wasn't.
It only takes a few moments at most. They usually do it at the time that the train is at full speed on trains operating to Port Jeff, and you can hardly notice it, except if you are in the car next to the locomotive, you can hear the engines revving up, and you sometimes see black smoke coming out of the top of the engine. These are the best dual-modes ever built, and they operate very well in electric compared to the P32ACDM's and the FL9's (FL9AC's included).
In a previous thread, I recall a discussion of dual modes on Metro North and when do they run on diesel and when do they run on electric. I believe the response was that they only run on electric in the Park Avenue tunnel and diesel the rest of the trip. That confirmed my observations of the Metro North trains I frequently see on the Hudson line at the Marble Hill station; they seem to always be on diesel there. Since the 3rd rail is there to provide power (at least to Croton Harmon), why do these locos run on diesel which is obvisouly less friendly to the enviroment. I know that diesels of today are significantly cleaner than in years gone by, but it would eem to make more sense to run on electric as long as possible while in NY and its suburbs.
Are the dual modes more efficient running on diesel or is it a question of power distribution on the line (they run on diesel to make the electricty available to the electric only trains)? Once again, all information is greatly appreciated.
Can't say for sure, but a properly maintained diesel loco is usually capable of producing traction electrons at a much better price than ConeHead can ... in other words, it's probably cheaper to generate the electricity on board than to buy it off the third rail.
This is SPECULATION! Warning, warning Will Robinson! :)
Pure Electric locos have fewer moving parts and are easier to maintain than diesel-electrics, and offer two to three times the horsepower per unit. When a duel-mode loco runs in diesel mode, the diesel engine becomes dead weight, contributing nothing to the train.
There is some loss of electric power over a catenary, but the very high voltage used minimizes this loss and increases efficiency. The energy supplied through the catenary is supplied at generally a 3/1 ratio thermal/electric - eg three units of thermal energy are required to generate one unit of electricity. This is true of fossil-generated and nuclear-generated electricity. I do not know how much mechanical energy from a hydroelectric turbine is needed to convert to one unit of electricity.
The most efficient diesel engine, new and in prime operating condition, might reach 40% efficiency (eg better than the three-to-one ratio above), but three-to-one is typical (three units thermal energy created from chemical energy stored in the diesel fuel converted to electric energy coming out of the generator).
If anyone has newer info than the above, feel free to post.
Like I said, my post is theoretical. I used to work for the Public Service Commission so I know how high the markup is on electricity, even the taxpayer subsidized PASNY electrons. Regardless of the thermodynamics and efficiencies of a diesel locomotive, it IS a fact that it's cheper to generate your own than to buy deregulated electrons ...
As to whether or not that matters to the MTA is anybody's guess - but traction power off your own generator on a chassis at about 3 cents a kilowatt hour is a lot cheaper than PASNY's 8 cents or Conehead's 13 cents. Just a thought ...
I think it's to do with substation capacity. Usually, substations only supply just enough power to power the electric trains. So if the dual modes are added later, they can avoid costly upgrades to substation capacity simply by running in diesel mode.
The other reason as to why they run on diesel is to do with peaking. With large electricity users, charges are not really related to volume but more related to peaking. Thus the peaking charges incurred during the peak hour probably costs the MTA much more in electric bill than the off-peak. Depending on what their contract says, they could probably use diesel during the peak, and electric off-peak and still have a very similar electricity bill to if they used diesel all day for the dual modes.
AEM7
Interesting point. I hadn't thought of that. Thank you.
Demand metering ... yep, that could be a factor too though state agencies such as MTA would be exempted from that. The substation CAPACITY argument would make the most sense ... between the rate and this possibility, that might be it ... then again, in government service, rocks float. :)
That depends on the price of diesel fuel. At $1.50 per gallon are you competitive with the wires? At $1.00? I wonder where the break-even point is.
Plus, I seriously doubt that the rate that MTA pays for its electricity is the same as what you pay at home...
By the way, there was a bad typo in my post. I should have said "in electric mode" the diesel engine is dead weight. Obviously, in diesel mode, it is the prime mover.
I think the "home rates" are higher than what I quoted - the 13 cent and 8 cent prices are for "economic zone" recipients of PASNY power within those territories. A large steam plant owned by a utility still does it for about 2.4 cents a KWH ... current costs for most SD40's and similar are a costout at about 3.0 cents a KWH ... remember that railroads get to purchase "off-road diesel" which is not taxed (red dyed) ... I don't know what Conehead's current rate is but I think it's considerably higher than 13 cents.
And again, I'm not sure ANY of this is the reason why the diesels run in third rail country, I'm merely suggesting it as a possibility. I think they're paying 78 cents a gallon but I can't swear by it since I don't bother tracking that info myself. And not to worry about the typo, I knew what you meant. Heh. With all the slips of the fingers that *I* do, you won't hear me being holier than thou. :P
Agreed.
When a dual-mode is running in electric mode, both the diesel engine AND THE FUEL are dead weight. Burning off fuel lowers the weight of the train and increases its efficiency!
When a dual-mode is running in diesel mode, only the circuits associated with converting from catenary power to internal power are unused, but it still has to pay to drag the diesel engine and fuel along.
On Saturday, I took a ride to Goshen, NY in Orange County. While visiting some friends, I was trying to locate where the train station was in town. I came across what looked like an old station house on Railroad Ave. but it was now the Goshen police station. I could not find any tracks what so ever, but just the signal pole next to the building. Why did service passenger service end to Goshen if that town is the county seat? The closest station now is Campbell Hall. Does that station see alot of commuters during the week? I am thinking of buying a house near by.
That building was, in fact, the former Erie Railroad station in Goshen. The station closed in the 1980's when Conrail decided to abandon the old Erie mainline route through Monroe, Chester, Goshen, and Middletown, in favor of the Graham Freight Line. The Graham line could handle high and wide loads which the main line couldn't.
When the mainline closed commuter operations were also switched to the Graham Line. As you noted, now the nearest station for Goshen residents is Campbell Hall, which is about five miles out of town, off of Rt. 207. The station does get a lot of use by commuters, but not as much as Middletown or Harriman. Other commuter stations that were built on the Graham line are Middletown (near the Galleria Mall), New Windsor (immediately adjacent to Moodna Viaduct), and Harriman. All other stations on the Port Jervis corridor remained at the same locations.
FYI, at one time Goshen was also served by the Lehigh and New England.
I lived in Orange County most of my life, and it's a beautiful area. Goshen is especially picturesque. If you move there, I am sure you would love it.
When the Erie Line was abandoned, what happened to the right of way? Also, where is the Graham Line in relation to the Port Jervis Line?
- Lyle Goldman
The ROW from Harriman Station to Route 17 (Newburgh Junction) is in use as a freight spur; at route 17 it's gated off. From route 17 to Monroe, the ROW is still there intact. Where the ROW makes its turn in Monroe and heads towards route 208, it is also mostly still there, though I think there may be some housing being built on or near it now. The bridge over State St is still there, in good shape, with the word "Erie" still visible in the center of the bridge.
After Monroe, I do not know the condition of the ROW.
--Mark
The Graham Line IS the Port Jervis line.
Read the second paragraph: "When the mainline closed commuter operations were also switched to the Graham Line."
Would have saved you the extra question.
I haven't seen any pics of the Amtrak Pacific Surfliner Trains, I know they are pulled by a white & blue F59 Locomotive, and I believe the F59 hauls Surfliner Passenger Cars, Does anybody have any interesting information on these Trains??
http://www.360360.com/trains/psurfch.html
Here's some more Pics that I found with the Pacific Surfliner:
Amtrak Pacific Surfliner Pics
They run 150' from my apartment.....
I have ridden them many times, and believe me, they are REALLYnice trainsets. Comfortable, they ride smooth, have a lot of nice features....
They sure as heck beat the life out of the Amfleet sets we've had out here since 1976. Trouble is, thee is still ONE Amfleet train running on the route, and it shows up when you least expect it. It's like going back to the dark ages of train travel....
Thanks for the Info, If I'm not mistaken the Surfliner runs right next to the Pacific Ocean, Correct?
150', you must get a good view everyday.
The Surfliner would look nice, if they had Dual F59 Locomotives at each end of the Trainset, maybe they should also add 2 or 3 more Surfliners to the Trainset.
They have added additional cars to the trainsets...in 11/2001 additional cars were delivered -- basically two complete trainsets plus an additional cab/coachbaggage car to replace 6900 which was involved in a serious wreck when only a month old and is out of service (bent frame).
Can they fix trains with bent frames? Like cut the frame apart where its bent and then weld in reinforcements? Let's suppose that money is not an issue and it was some kind of car that was special and cannot be replicated by building a new one. Is it physically possible to fix it?
AEM7
Is it physically possible to fix it?
Usually. But is it economically feasible? Usually not.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The cost of doing so would far outweigh just building a new car. They'd have to strip almost the entire body fromt he frame to straighten it. Cheaper in the long run to just build a new one, use the old one for parts.
I haven't found 6900 anywhere along the line, I'm suspecting it was taken back to the builder to be stripped and the parts used on one of the 6951-6953 cab cars that were put into service in the late part of last year.
How many Surfliner Trainsets are out there? And what consist are they in? Thanks
It runs right next to the ocean ONLY through San Clemente and for a very little stretch in Del Mar. There is quite a lot of running that is within a mile of the ocean, from Doheny Beach to Del Mar (Doheny Beach is a couple miles north of San Clemente).
As for it being 150's from my place, hate to say it, there is NO view. My apartment faces west, the the tracks are on the south side of the complex. My fabulous view? The embankments of teh 55 Freeway! Most of the time, I don't even hear the trains -- unless it's the BNSF freight or one of the engineers blow the horns. They're nice and quiet, though they are doing up to 90 miles an hour.
90 mph is fast for a Locomotive pulling 5 Surfliners. To bad for such a Good View.
It also runs a few hundred yards from the ocean in places like Ventura, Ca.
Yeah, forgot about the north of LA end....actually, it does a lot more ocean-side running up there. From Oxnard to north of Santa Maria, the ocean is almost always in sight, except right in the vicinity of Santa Barbara.
(CBS) On the Sunday Morning Diversions, the next stop is Chicago.
An exhibit at the Art Institute, called “Modern Trains and Splendid Stations,” takes visitors on a ride into the future through narrow corridors, designed to evoke the feeling of train travel. And there are no slow trains coming.
“In terms of train design, we have a fascination with speed and technology,” said Curator of Architecture Martha Thorne.
Thorne says riding the rails in the 21st century is a fast-moving experience, especially in France, Germany and Japan, where speeds can exceed 200 miles per hour.
“I think we have a ways to go to catch up to our European or Asian counterparts, in terms of recognizing the importance of train travel in general,” Thorne explained.
And it’s not just trains that have been re-designed. To attract 21st century train travelers, new train stations have to be something more than just depots. They are now part civic center, part airport and part shopping mall.
For rail and architecture enthusiasts alike, this Chicago exhibit may be worth slowing down for.
Closes 28 Jul 2002.
http://www.artic.edu/aic/exhibitions/trains.html
"And it’s not just trains that have been re-designed. To attract 21st century train travelers, new train stations have to be something more than just depots. They are now part civic center, part airport and part shopping mall. "
You mean like Penn Basement? Oh yeah, THAT was an improvement. BRING ON MODERNISM!
Or JFK terminals.
People love railroads for there old world charm! Old Penns, GCTs; Beaux-Arts(?) is the foundation that ALLLLLLLLL railroad stations should follow! When you think of railroad teminals and Big stations you think of a Beaux-Arts building, Right?
The exhibit was featured on Charles Kuralt's show on CBS this Sunday morning. Enjoyed it.
Mr Kuralt passed away many years ago. You mean Mr Osgood on Sunday Morning.
Yes, thank you. Mr. Osgood it is.
Rats. I won't be in the Chicago area again until October. Does anyone know if the exhibit is moving other museums?
This is the day when, if you and your kid both want the railfan window, you're supposed to win! :)
My daughters aren't railfans exactly, but they enjoy their train rides and especially trolley rides. What better gift could a railfan dad get than taking his daughter for a Sunday ride on the Lancaster Avenue car in Philly, with her enjoying the ride and the all the church ladies commenting on how adorable she is. :)
Happy Father's Day!
Happy Father's Day from Chicago!
My wife and two children gave me a great day on the Strasburg Railroad today. Riding the rails behind Norfolk and Western #475 and smelling the coal smoke and steam was more than delightful. Photographing the trains and browsing in the book store were the icing on the cake. Just wanted to share and a Happy Father's Day to all.
Best wishes,
Bob
>>>>My daughters aren't railfans exactly, but they enjoy their train rides and especially trolley rides.<<<
You mean there may be more female subtalkers someday?
www.forgotten-ny.com
damn my son was born february 1972......
am i getting old ? ..............!
I can't take this no more! We need to get new Passenger Cars over here in the NEC, It's no fair that California gets the new Pacific Surfliners and the new Amtrak Cascades Trainsets, and we just get the Acela Express and a couple of HHP-8 Locomotives(Not that I'm not Greatful). I think we need to get rid of the Amfleet Cars and get the Modern Passenger Cars over here.
Amfleet cars are way better than anything that California would ever have... and anyway they coughed up the dough for it (80% state funding.) You write to your State Govenor and get her/him to pay up.
AEM7
Your just saying that about the Amfleets Cars because your Locomtive pulls them, I just think we need new passenger cars, my Train is brand new and has state of the art technology.
I didn't know that the State Government coughed up 80% of the money for those new Trainsets, but still I like the way those Surfliners look.
Those Budd built Amfleets are better and will continue to be better than anything purchased since.
I disgree about the Amfleet Cars being better than any other purchsed cars since.
OK, look at what has been purchased since the Budd Amfleets:
* Comet IV
* Horizon (need I say more?)
* Acela Cars (Those suck, annoying computer systems, cheap-ass poorly-riding lightweight trucks, doors that get stuck -- the only nice part is the tilting technology that makes them run faster than the Amfleets)
* Kawasaki Bilevels (Those were for the MBTA Commuter Rail, they were OK, but not brilliant, especially not for long distance runs)
Well, there had been a few car designs that had at least equalled the Amfleets, but they hardly ever run in the Northeast:
* Viewliner
* Superliner
What is needed is a properly-engineered car, based either on the Pennsy Metroliner, or the body of the Viewliner, designed for comfortable daytime service on the NEC. The tilting part really isn't necessary because the NEC is straight as an arrow south of New London. Really, the Acela cars should be reassigned to Pittsburgh Service where the tilting will actually make a difference. Electrification is already out to Harrisburg and it wouldn't cost too much to build it to Pittsburgh. For the NEC, some seriously fast, seriously comfortable, non-tilting trains are called for.
AEM7
Electrification is already out to Harrisburg and it wouldn't cost too much to build it to Pittsburgh
Electrification from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh will probably cost about $2bn (5 million per mile @ 300 miles + 33% contigency). PennDOT can cough up the $.
In fact, even better -- scrap the Acela locomotives, buy a fleet of gas-turbine experimentals (or simply a high speed version of the Genesis) and run them today. Tilting trains on the Keystone Corridor. I guess that the end-to-end journey time reduction would be about an hour so PHL-PIT would come down from 8 hours to 7 hours. Still slow, but if CBTC was put on that line to permit 110mph running, the time could be down to 5 hours, which would be very competitive.
AEM7
Even Better -- Scrap the AEM-7's and the Amfleets and let the Acela Express and the other Acela services take over.
How do you fancy this:
Let's deregulate the NEC. Acelas will be sold to you and Northeast Direct equipment sold to me (Amfleets, a few P-42's, and all of AEM-7s; no HHP-8's; a few Viewliners).
We can then make a stab at it. Let's see who goes bankrupt first. Then we can determine who is getting scrapped.
AEM-7
Of course you will go Bankrupt first. I would order more Acela Trainsets and lower the fares.
With what capital? Before you can expand service, you need to be profitable. You can't make a profit if you've lowered your fares, because you're already not meeting your expenses. No one will lend money to a business that is losing money, EXCEPT for governments. Since you are now a private company without government backing, you can't get the loans.
-Hank
I still ahve lots to learn about finances and money, etc.
I still have lots to learn about finances, money, etc.
The line is already cab signaled. The main impediments to speed are severe curves and NS freight trains.
You had to go there with the Acela Cars, look at the AEM-7
1)They look very ugly and boxy looking
2)You have no Computer Systems or anything state of the art.
No computers or any thing state of the art???
Damn, these engines are the state of the art, they're still right up there with the best engines in the world. AESA really knew what they were doing when they went in on the Rc-4 project. It was among the first locomotives to use Thrystor controlled rectifiers (IIRC), and today the AEM-7AC uses IGBT, the modern day equivilant to the Thyrstors, and something that the Acela family don't even touch. AEM-7 obsolete? No, the Acela is just flashier, techincally quite old, using outdated equipment and techinques. And as such it will eventually go the way of the SPV2000, the Metroliner, and the Turbotrains.
AEM-7 has seen the NEC through some darker days, proven its mettle, the AEM-7AC is merely the reward for such a stalwart rocket. Today the ACELA owes it's very exsistence to the AEM-7's stewardship of the NEC. Someday, when the Dash-9 and SD80MAC yard goats are hauling the ACELAs off to the Dead line at Wilmington, an AEM-7ACII will race by with a renewed Metroliner.
BTW, AEM7, you forgot the Bombardier Commuter cars, I have only ridden the Metrolink cars in LA, and that was a long time ago, but I remember it positively, anyway, now you are free to rip away on those as well.
Acela Family is the best of the best, The Acela Family doesn't owe a damn thing to the AEM-7 at all! Well I shouldn't get mad, everybody has their own opinions and ideas of what they like and dislike.
It was among the first locomotives to use Thrystor controlled rectifiers (IIRC)
Interesting. I did not know that. The class 87/1 series of locomotives on British Rail had an experimental set of thrystor equipment fitted, that was around 1978/79 if I remember correctly -- so about the same time as the X995.
today the AEM-7AC uses IGBT, the modern day equivilant to the Thyrstors, and something that the Acela family don't even touch.
That surprises me very much. I thought that the AEM-7AC was basically an HHP-8 in the shell of an AEM-7. Can you tell me who supplied the electrical equipment for the AEM-7AC? You would not think that Bombardier had developed separate traction packages for the HHP-8 and for the AEM-7AC, so I am guessing the electrical equipment for the AEM-7AC came from a different supplier. There aren't that many companies left in the world who are able to supply heavy duty traction control packages -- the last I know, there's only really Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier and a few Japanese firms still left in the game, and the Japanese have never really built locomotives.
Someday, when the Dash-9 and SD80MAC yard goats are hauling the ACELAs off to the Dead line at Wilmington, an AEM-7ACII will race by with a renewed Metroliner.
heh, that paints quite a picture, although I doubt that the Dash-9 and SD80MAC would ever become yard goats -- the horsepower race in diesel seem to have come to an end with SD70MAC and AC4400 being more popular than SD90MAC and AC6000; EMD has already identified that there is a lack of low-horsepower yard goats and are trying to fill the gap with SD40-2's and SD40-3's... I wonder once those SD-40 frames rust out, which would be the next yard goats.
Incidentally, Pepsi Can P32 #519 (IIRC) in Northeast Direct paint was a yard goat in Toledo, OH. I'm surprised that those supposedly-new predecessor to P-40's have become yard goats so soon. I guess it's true that GE's don't last. You'd think they would rather get rid of F-40's than Dash8-32FP's. Anyone with any info on why Amtrak's done with the P32's?
AEM7
The 500-519 series P32's were basically a peace offering from GE when Amtrak had ordered the first bunch of Genesis units. They couldn't keep schedules when they were assigned to the San Diegans, or basically any other of the short-haul trains they worked due to frequent stops, etc.
Two of them -- Amtrak 501 and 502 -- were paid for by the Satte of California. They came with Caltrans logos on the cabs. Once the Caltrans F59PHI's were delivered, the 501 and 502 became California Amtrak 2051 and 2052 and were painted to match the F59PHI's. The rest of the 500's system-wide have been downgraded to switchers. LA has the 500, 503 and 504 working its yards.
Well, unfortunately, because the Amtrak Photo Archive is currently down, I cannot back up totally what I said, but I did manage to get a blurb off of Google's description of the AEM-7ACs portion of the site,
"As such, the reborn AEM-7 ``is the world's first passenger locomotive with IGBT in service,'' says Alstom. ... "
Now I do not know if the Acelas and HHPs came before the AEM-7ACs, but those Acelas have been sitting over in Race Street engine yard for as long as I can remember, and it seems like yesterday that the AEM-7ACs came out in their new duds.
I also found this: (Acrobat required) http://www.sonic.net/~mly/Caltrain-Electrification/2000-08-Rolling-Stock-Draft/4.pdf, which says, "the locomotive's carbody is originally an AEM-7 the original overall dimensions remain the same, as follows: The new ac propulsion system uses water-cooled IGBT," Which confirms that the AEM-7AC uses IGBT equipment.
I seem to remember hearing on a message board that somebody, maybe Phillip Nasidowski (apologies in advance for butchering your name, and possibly pinning something on you you didn't say), decrying the Acelas for a lack of modern technology, such as IGBT, I believe it was on NYCrail.com, possibly one of a number of Acela bashing posts, but could be wrong, I know Acela2005 was present, so it couldn't be pre-shutdown Railroad.net. The general gist of the post was that the Acelas and HHPs use older GTO equipment, and are technologically inferior to the AEM-7ACs.
I do not mean to spread heresay, and would probably be willing to wager on the validity of my previous post. Thanks.
BTW, check out that .pdf file I linked, it talks about electrifying the Caltrans line, which is at least a step in the right direction for US rail.
As for electrification of the Caltrain line (NOT Caltrans...CDOT turned it over to the Pensinsula Corridor Joint Power Board ten years ago...the counties now have entire control, basically San Mateo County) -- yes, the idea is one which SHOULD BE implemented.
Only problem is, Santa Clara County has withdrawn it's participation in paying for electrification. That threw a wrench into the works.
So It's not just me who is not getting the Amtrak Photo Archive.
There wasn't enough Metro-Liners built to run the Whole HSR NEC off of. They were purly experimental. Though I think you could convert Amfleet cars into Metro-Liners (almost same body) because the Metro-Liners were turned into cab control Amfleets.
The Amfleet cars were identical to the Metroliner cars, sans propulsion equipment. They used the same body shells.
-Hank
They will use cheap stell in making the "NEW" Metro-Liners.
Huh? What is 'stell'? What new Metroliners?
-Hank
Steel. CHEAP STEEL!
Have you ridden these cars you're debunking?
Yes -- I was on the inaugural run of the Acela.
Never ridden the Surfliner, but I've ridden the LAX-SFO train (can't recall the name right now).
I wonder if people in California are complaining, about the trains they have and they wish they had the Acela Express over there, just as we are talking about how we want those trains over here.
No, we are NOT complaining, as we really like the Amtrak Calkfornia cars and the Pacific Surfliners.
Amfleet cars are better??
What are you smoking? better for WHAT?
They are a quarter century old. They ride rough. they are noisy. They stink from years of people being allowed to smoke in them.
Amtrak didn't buy the "Amtrak California" cars -- the State of California did. The Pacific Surfliner cars were 80% paid for by the state as well.
The Talgo sets? They're up in Washington state, who paid for them.
I agree 100% with Steve about the Amfleet Cars.
1. The "California cars" are bi levels which are SLOW load/unload cars entirely unsuitable to NEC dwell times/passenger loads. And they barely fit under the catenary.
2 Although Amfleet cars do not ride as well as some earlier streamliner cars, they are adequate to the task, the seating is comfortable, and with the 'Capstone' rebuild you get 120AC plugs at your seat. The major needs are Espresso machines in the Cafe cars.
I didn't say to bring the Bi-Level Cars over here, I said to bring new Passenger Cars and trash the old Amfleets Cars.
And the Bi-Level Cars would be able to fit under Catenary, MARC Bi-Level Cars fit great under the Wire, MBTA Bi-Level Cars also fit great under the wire.
Bilevels dont run on the NEC because of height restrictions.at least thats what i heard.i know alot of superliners start at washington.i like those bilevel cars that LIRR has.i think that would be suitable for trains on the northeast.those wouldnt hit caternery and fit under the tunnels of New York.
R142MAN
AMTRAK
That's not true, the MARC Bi-Level Cars runs on the NEC and doesn't have a problem, and the MBTA runs in the NEC and doesn't have a problem.
i mean bewteen new york and phil.i didnt mean to start an uprising,or anything.but i would like to see the LIRR bilevels on AMTRAK.
R142MAN
AMTRAK
Just not the piece of junk LIRR engines though! The coaches are nice, the engines have been nothing but problems......and they are ugly too!
i hate the engines too
Superliners are not the same as the bi-level commuter cars used in the northeast. In fact, the bi-levels used by LIRR, MARC, and MBTA don't even have much in common with GO Transit's cars in Toronto. There is no comparison to be made between bi-levels and Superliners. The bi-levels used by the aformentioned agencies are designed to fit the profile of the the tighest clerances they encounter, in all cases, it's Amtrak's catenary.
-Hank
MBTA, MARC, and LIRR Bi-Level cars are specially designed to fit the tighter clearances in the northeast. NJT needs to have yet another bi-level design, because the Hudson (North) River tunnels have even tighter clearances. GO Transit bi-levels will not fit. There's a reason you don't see Superliners or double-stacks north of Washington or east of Chicago. The clearance issues are more than just the catenary. The bi-level Amtrak California cars are based on the Superliner blueprint.
Viewliner sleepers are nearly exclusive to northeast and Silver Service trains. Again, Superliners can't be used because of clearance issues. There is at least one (and at most two) Viewliner diner, which I had the pleasure of eating in a few years back on the Silver Meteor (mmm...GRITS!) Again, it's clearance issues with Superliners. It is clear that YOU'RE not GRATEFUL.
There is also a reason that the cars are called 'California Cars', and are emblazoned with a different logo and 'Amtrak California'. The state of California paid for most of them, along with the new locomotives that pull them. There is a similar funding arrangement for the Talgo sets in the northwest.
-Hank
There's a reason you don't see Superliners or double-stacks north of Washington or east of Chicago.
Double Stack is cleared to Albany NY via the NYC main, and cleared to Enola AT LEAST via the PRR main. 3-level autoracks are cleared to Beacon Yard in BOSTON MA via the NYC main. There is more clearance in the Northeast than you think. The reason Amtrak runs single levels on the Lake Shore Ltd is because these single level cars has to go SOMEWHERE!!!
It is true that Back Bay station wouldn't take bilevels, neither would South Station in Boston. However I don't think people would be very upset if they yarded the train in Beacon, if they would build a Park & Ride lot.
AEM7
In reading various items here over the last year or so, I have learned that South Station in Boston is were all Amtrack trains arrive and depart(except for the Downeaster) and North Station is the departure/arrival point for the Downeaster and various commuter lines.
In the above post, I see Back Bay station mentioned. I checked the Boston section on this site and it appears that Back Bay is one stop from South Station on what appears to be the lines to Worschester and Providence.
Can anyone provide some background and/or history on the three RR stations in Boston, such as which RR's built each station and why there is no connection between North and South (I figure it is most likely similar to the reason there is no connection between the PRR's Penn Station and the NYC's Grand Central Terminal). Also, what role does/did Back Bay play, is it really as close to South Station as it appears on the commuter rail route map?
Thanks in advance for the information.
Why didn't you just post a new topic about the Boston RR Stations?, instead of posting it in a discussion that has nothing to do with the Boston RR.
Your suggestion is a valid option, but I would not say the tread I posted in had "nothing to do with Boston RR". The thread was about Amtrack equipment and which types can travel where. As I was reading about what equipment can go into Boston, the question entered my mind, which is why I posted as I did. I think it is an acceptable practice here to change a subject line as long as you amend the orginal and do not simply replace it with your revised topic.
I hope I did not confuse anyone and I apologize if I did.
Piggo/Bill
We were talking about Amtrak Equipment, but we were talking about certain types of trainsets in Amtrak. You should of started a new Topic, because we were having a certain discussion in this thread.
Because you know nothing about the nature of message boards, thread drift, and thread mutation. This is how discussions of the Sea Beach line turned to Nathan's Hot Dogs.
And you are still not GRATEFUL.
-Hank
Who are you to tell who's grateful and who's not?????
Maybe I was wrong about telling someone not to change subjects.
NOW you're grateful!
-Hank
In the above post, I see Back Bay station mentioned. I checked the Boston section on this site and it appears that Back Bay is one stop from South Station on what appears to be the lines to Worschester and Providence.
Can anyone provide some background and/or history on the three RR stations in Boston,
Boston south side services used to be handled by three separate railroads: Boston & Providence, New York & New England, and Boston & Albany. Through acquisition, NYNH&H bought into Boston and by 1895 had controlled most of the tracks on the south side, except those of the B&A which was controlled by the NYC. South Station was a purpose-built Union Station which was supposed to consolidate all the moves into Boston. The Boston Terminal Company was held 80% by NH and 20% by B&A. The Boston & Maine, which had its own North Station terminal and was rivals with B&A for westward services, stayed out of the union terminal. Back Bay station was the site of a B&A/B&P diamond (the current Amtrak (ex-NH, ex-B&P) Shore Line used to cross the B&A at Back Bay and then continue onto Park Sq., approximately where the current Park St. Rapid Transit station is).
It's interesting to note that the old route between NYP and BOS isn't actually via the Boston & Providence -- in fact, before NH took over the New England Railroad, trains would come up to BOS via what is currently the Readville Line. The Boston & Providence of course was built straight as an arrow all the way down to a ferry terminal in East Providence where ferries departed for Long Island. In a sense, the all-train routing of the New England Railroad competed with the intermodal routing of LIRR+ferry+Boston & Providence. Before the New England Railroad completed its route between New Haven and Boston via Middletown, CT; Williamantic, CT; Mechanicsville, CT; Douglas, MA; Franklin, MA; Norwood, MA; Readville, MA, the New England mountain range was considered impenetratable by land-based transport. By the turn of the century, there were at least three routes competing for traffic between New Haven and Boston: the current Inland Route via Springfield, by B&A; the mostly-abandoned NER route described above; the intermodal route via Long Island and to a lesser extent the Shore Line by NH.
why there is no connection between North and South
There was never really a reason to connect B&M to the Union Station. If necessary, exchange of cars from B&M to the South Side could be accomplished at B&A's Beacon Yard (a move which still takes place for sending Amtrak/MBTA cars to Southampton St Yd.) Since Boston was considered a major destination, the number of passengers connecting through Boston was considered insignificant.
what role does/did Back Bay play,
It was supposed to serve the city's West End, a role which it still plays.
is it really as close to South Station as it appears on the commuter rail route map?
It's about 1.5 miles out, the train takes 5 mins, Rapid Transit takes about 10 mins. I don't recall ever having walked it (it was always easier to wait for the transit) but I've certainly walked parts of the route and it's not really that far.
Don't come up to Boston looking to walk around old stuff. The building of the Mass Pike in the 60s destroyed most of the railroad history around there. The section of B&A trackage and RoW between Back Bay and a point slightly east of Route 128 is still owned by Massachusetts Turnpike Authority.
AEM7
"It's about 1.5 miles out, the train takes 5 mins, Rapid Transit takes about 10 mins."
It would be very tricky to get from Back Bay to South Station via Rapid trainsit in 10 mins. It's several minutes walk to the green line, then you wait a minute or 2, then you have to change for the Red, then you wait, then you have to climb out of the station.
It's also a very difficult walk, because the route is through some of the oldest parts of the city, as messed up by two highways. The streets aren't stright and the straight routes don't necessarily go through.
It's also equally hard to drive for similar reasons.
So all in all, lots of people find Back Bay much easier to get to than South Station.
On SOME lines, there is clearance. I dare you to put a Superliner into Penn Station, or Grand Central. The Boston section of the Lake Shore uses single-level equipment because it is combined with the New York section at Albany, which MUST use single-level equipment into Penn.
Bi-level cars and Superliners are two different animals. A Superliner is two distict levels. A bi-level car is generally split-level, with an entry way at a high-platform level, between the upper and lower levels. The lower level is below the level of the high-level platforms they use. With a Superliner, you enter on the lower level. The cars are incompatible with high-level platforms, which are all over the northeast.
NJT Coaches are 12'8" high without pans raised, and these are the max size that fit the Hudson River tunnels. Superliners are 15' high. LIRR bi-levels fit somewhere between those figures, and NJT is having bi-levels designed to fit their dimensions.
-Hank
No I am Greatful for the Trains that we have, if just I started to like the Cascades and the Pacific Surfliners.
I fear that if they installed Espresso machines, the Mochas would be about as good as the "revamped menu" is now. -not great.
It's no fair that California gets the new Pacific Surfliners and the new Amtrak Cascades Trainsets, and we just get the Acela Express and a couple of HHP-8 Locomotives
California paid for a good portion of the trains and service that Amtrak gives. Your gripe has to be against New York, not Amtrak.
Just read in July 2002 copy of trains magazine something about fundamental differences in ways East Coast and West Coast governments handle projects. The Alameda Corridor project, according to TRAINS, was driven by local municipalities from the bottom up, getting the schemes approved by CalTrans and finally issuing bonds to finance construction with very little federal (or even State) involvement. Contrast that with the way Massachusetts EOTC and ConnDOT constants getting their hands tied in the NEC and trying to get Federal $ for stuff. I don't know which way is really more effective but it would seem the greater sense of devolution out West is finally bearing fruit. Whether they like it or not, Washington has very little say about what goes on in California; in the Northeast where Washington has a big influence, all the money seem to have been spent between Washington and Baltimore (i.e. NEC upgrade in the 80's, Superliner gauge enhancement in the 90's, and then now the proposed BWMaglev scheme -- see www.bwmaglev.com).
AEM7
I now know that California brought those trainsets for Amtrak, maybe they should do the same for the Northeast and the Southeast.
I agree. California is a great example for the rest of the country. Anyone who's ever visited San Diego, they have a great "Coaster" system there. The stations are beautifully maintained and landscaped. The NEC or even a commuter railroad like the LIRR have no excuse. A person may say, well the stations look better because they are new. Well the LIRR just replaced a lot of stations to accomidate their new trains, they are not even a 1/4 as nice as Californias. (I got on the subject of commuter trains, because much of California's AMtrak service is commuter)
Anyway, they really should look into the condition of the Northeast's Amtrak trains also. They pale in comparison to the west coast.
If I'm not mistaken the Pacific Surfliner runs mostly by the Pacific Ocean, Correct?
What is the Maximum Speed the Pacific Surfliner can achieve?
The maximum speed on the line of the Pacific Surfliner from Los Angeles to San Diego is 90 miles an hour. However, the whole line is not that high.
From LA to Fullerton, maximum is 79 miles an hour. Fullerton to CP Lyons (border of Santa Ana and Tustin about half a mile from my place) is 65 maximum due to curves,interlockings, etc. CP Lyons to Del Mar area is 90 max, but there are a LOT of curve, station, etc. restrictions so there is not any really logn stretches of 90 mile an hour running. Mostly through Camp Pendleton (USMC), but even there, you have two sidings where a lot of meets occur (San Onofre and Las Pulgas) and the line is NOT flat.
Ocean running? Only from Doheny Beach curve (halfway between San Clemente) to the south end of San Clemente...going through the USMC base, the line is anywhere from 1/4 mile to 1 mile in from the shore. It runs basically along the ocean (but again, up to half a mile in) from Oceanside to Del Mar. Then it turns inland at Sorrento Valley to get over Miramar Grade, then curves back out, but only out to I-5 and runs parallel to it into San Diego.
North of Los Angeles, the ocean running is from Oxnard to Pismo Beach, but it isn't always right AT the ocean; sometimes it's a tad in from the shore as south of Los Angeles. The running speeds are a max of 70 north of LA from what I remember--haven't ridden it too much.
line is anywhere from 1/4 mile to 1 mile in from the shore. It runs basically along the ocean (but again, up to half a mile in) from Oceanside to Del Mar.
One of the prettiest photos I have is at the railroad crossing in Del Mar (near where the original station was). The waves seem to almost break at the tracks. It's a great line to railfan. Amtrak runs there, freights, Coaster Trains, and slightly further south the San Diego Trolly. It's a real good time
I would post the photo, but it's a slide, and I don't have a scanner that scans slides.
Actually, at Del Mar, the tracks are 50-60 feet higher than the ocean.
You sure the photo wasn't at the old San Clemente station, where the tracks are slightly above sea level (inches...) ??
It was about 8 years ago but I think it was Del Mar (Amtrak still used the station at the time) I took it near the station, the station is not in the photo. The waves are breaking right behind train. I wish I could post it, but like I said it's a slide.
That is one of my favorite lines to railfan. It's a beautiful place there! It's so much different now though, than when I first was there about 10 years ago! I have a photo also of the Solana Beach (spelling?) station when they were first building it. It seemed to be in the middle of nowhere back then. The last time I was there though I couldn't believe it! Now the tracks are in a cut and the station is way up high! It was all even in the original photo I took. I guess when they opened that station was when they closed Del Mar.
Yes, Solana Beach station is nice nowadays -- the crossing that was at the old station was a traffic nightmare when the tracks were at ground level.
If you ever get out here again, drop a line and I'll show you around. I'm right next to the tracks about two miles south of the Santa Ana station!
Yes, Solana Beach station is nice nowadays -- the crossing that was at the old station was a traffic nightmare when the tracks were at ground level.
If you ever get out here again, drop a line and I'll show you around. I'm right next to the tracks about two miles south of the Santa Ana station!
One day, when I have time, I'd like to get out there again. It is a great place. I wasn't there that long, but really enjoyed what I did get to see of that line.
I agree 100% with you GP38, they keep California Stations and their Trains clean. If they ever bring those trains over here, it would probably be called the Atlantic Surfliner, LOL.
You don't think the Amfleets are good enough? Do you like Metroliner cars better than the AE cars? Amtrak got a whole fleet of turquoise colored cars not too long ago, and including the dark blue with the swirly lime green color for the Cafe cars (I think).
Cars such as the NE Direct are not bad. I haven't ridden a single train since I knew about AMTRAK and it'll probably empty out our pockets if we do. The Metroliners are going away now and I haven't even experienced riding in one.
Good thing at least AMTRAK RARELY uses the old-fashioned cars with the traditional red, white, and blue stripes.
Check out AMTRAK's Sleeping Cars and Dining cars (old ones but not too bad) on its Crescent, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and other long-distance trains on the NEC.
Are there shower facilities on long-distance trains and if so, how do they accomodate them?
I don't like the Amfleet Cars at all, I like the Acela Express Cars way more than the Metroliner. I like the Acela Express, Pacific Surfliner & Amtrak Cascades.
I like the Acela Express Cars way more than the Metroliner
You ever been inside an original Metroliner? I bet you that you don't even know what it is. There is one original Metroliner Cafe car sitting in the RR Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg -- go take a look. It is really quite classy. The seat motif is beautiful, and the cafe bar had real class. Remember all this was built in the 60s. And today when they remodelled the Amfleets, the interior still doesn't look as classy as that in a Metroliner.
If you'd ever ridden in a 60's Metroliner, you wouldn't love the Acela Express so much. Not that I have, but I have ridden on various heritage equipment and I have a pretty good idea as to why people love them. None of the customer-service stuff they try to put on today will ever equal the kind of classy service you got when you travelled on the railroad at the turn of the century.
AEM7
I rode the original Metroliners when I was in high school... my first
trip was from NYP to Philadelphia. It was terrific. Classy, fast, and they even had a pay phone that worked ($1.25 at the time) -- quite the marvel for the early 70s.
Some people get the equipment "Metroliner" (the EMU) mixed up with the Metroliner "Service" (pre Acela Regional - a AEM7 hauled Amfleet stock). This may be the case with AcelaExpress 2005.
What do you mean that may be the case with me? I know the difference between the Metroliner service and the Metroliner.
Just wanted to make sure now. Are you going to the NY Division meeting?
What NY Division mtg?
AEM7
It's in Manhattan, over at 101 Murrary St at St John's University Manhattan Campus. It meets monthly on the third Friday of the month. Doors open at 6:15PM.
Slide show of PCC Cars of LA, DC and others.
BULL!!!!!!! PURE BS!!!!!! You model your handle after somthing you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about!!!!!!!!!!
What the hell are you talking about?????? So tell me Fake Rockaway Kid do you know anything about the Acela??? Huh????
fake???? why the hell are you callin me fake? You're the fake one You know, not everythin hasto be posted!!!!There are some websites that can tell you all the s**t you wanna know.
People have told me that, so calm your self down.
told you what?
told you what?
Told me that there is stuff on the web that can answer my questions.
uh-huh. try a math book, for starters. 15x2=30 (not 25-40). I hope to god you aren't taking any regents this week
I am taking regents tomorrow, why.
bio, sequential 2, or both?
Biology/Living Environment Only from 8:30 - 11:30, what school do u attend? Sorry For going off Topic.
i gotta take both. wat math r u in?
Math A
math A. from what i hear, it's easir to pass, but harder to get a '100' on
Yesterday was my last day of classes, so I think I'm finish with Math A and moving on to Math B.
nope. you hveto take the math A regents go to a regents site, and chek the testing sachedules
I am studyin from the barrons regents website now for the regents tomorrow.
there is MATH A regents
I know there's a test, but I don't know about the Regents.
the test is the regents
AHHHH!!
Are we talking about the Metro-Liner route or the MU Metro-Liner cars?
Are there shower facilities on long-distance trains and if so, how do they accomodate them?
Yes, there are. I haven't taken an Amtrak sleeper in quite a few years so I can't speak for the modern cars, but the old Heritage fleet cars had two showers per car available to the passengers - small but usable. I've ridden VIA sleepers more recently but those trips were in luxury accomodations so we had a private shower.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is there a water pump and a cleaner to pump the drain water back to the usable water supply?
Is there a water pump and a cleaner to pump the drain water back to the usable water supply?
No, since the water isn't reusable - it's what is commonly referred to as "gray water" (waste water that isn't sewage). On the Heritage fleet cars it would have been deposited directly onto the tracks; more modern equipment, I believe, retain the water in holding tanks that are pumped out at the end of the run.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well is there a restriction to water usage per person or something? What if someone decides to take a 30 minute shower?
What if someone decides to take a 30 minute shower?
The hot water's only good for about five minutes... not much worry about that! And standing in the shower on a moving train isn't exactly the most thrilling experience in the world - well, unless you're a fan of carnival fun houses with moving floors - so it's not really an issue. You take a quick one and plan on a nice long one when you get to your destination.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The turquoise colored trains you see on the Acela Regional are refurbished Amfleets that were original NE Direct. Nothing new about them.
The turquoise striped cars are NOT new. They're a quarter century old. They are just newly striped red-white-blue cars. Sorry to burst your bubble.
yea but what are you gonna' do with dese things ( example below )
freight rules in da' west !!!
lol big time when amtrak gets TROWN INTO THE SEA WHAT "R" "U" gonna do ???????????????????
I don't know what I would do, Amtrak would probably be separated into serveral companies or the US Government or Congress would have no choice but to give Amtrak money to keep running and run without any problems, Airports and Buses and other Transportation can't work without Rail.
it is going to be a big problem ..........for sure !
how do you figure this? Without a NATIONAL LONG-DISTANCE RAILROAD (corridors included), airlines and buses will lose most of their competition. Which means that they'll make more money. Without Amtrak (and Crash-ela), the lines left will be commuter lines, and freight, both of which will stick around indefinately. THe sad part (to you) will be that, if a private company takes over the northeast, the wastes of taxpayer's money (aka ACELA) will be (thankfully) be relegated to a museum piece
Ok Think about this, All those Airports and Buses are gonna be overcrowded, and people are starting to take rail instead of Air because some people are scared of planes, due to the cause of 9/11, All Transporation can't work without Rail(especially the Acela).
not true. the post- 9/11 rail surge is about gone now. if anything like that happens again (who'd be stupid enought to try that again?), thaey'd take tha car (as most did), or bus. I don't think rail will impact our future. Unfortunately, rail is going the way of the fishbowls (to use a bustalk refrence)
Hell No!!! The Rail Is the Future of Transporation in the Country. Ok People maybe over the 9/11 attacks, but Transporation still can't work without rails at all, Airports would be heavily congested with people and bus, I don't even wanna go there.
pre- 9/11, airports were 'heavily cogested', and you know what people did? they dealtwith it. or, they drove.THEY DID NOT SWITCH TO RAIL TRAVEL. If they did, then y is AMTRAK going down the sh*thole?
Because they are spending to much money, and they don't budget their money that well.
Alot of them did switch to rail travel, everybody did different things so we don't know 4 sure.
which brings me to my final question : how (on what, rather) did they misspend ther money?
Damn sure wasn't on the Acela! The Acela was all worth the money. Who knows how they were losing money, I think the US Government should give Amtrak money they requested plus more, so we can purchase new equipment for the Northeast(Not the Acela).
nope, wrong answer! anyone else?
That's correct.
you said "definately not the acela" whaen the answer was actuallt "the acela" judges???????
The Acela was all worth the money, I think Amtrak made a good decision being the High Speed Trainsets and the HHP-8 Loco's.
y do you need them? the hhp-8's? sure. but all you need are cars to replace the amfleets, and the Acelas will be limited by track status for a long time. It's like getting a formula 1 racer, when the streets are so bad, you can only drive safely at <20mph
The HHP-8's came here to replace the old E-60 Electrics.
The main reason Amtrak isn't making money is because of the way Amtrak is set up by the government. If the government actually gave Amtrak more money and encourage people to use it by any method, then maybe Amtrak would make money. FYI, none of the railways in Europe make a profit either, they just get treated better by the governments.
As for post 9/11, when my Acela broke down on 11/15/01 (the AE isn't always that great), as we were all piling off the train to wait for the Acela Regional, I heard one person say "It is just like flying". I must say, it was like flying in terms of the lack of information, constantly being told to see other people to get information, and the usual courtesy and politeness I get from Amtrak employees was not present on either the Acela Express or Regional.
Amtrak great, when it it isn't breaking down.
There has been a substantial modal shift within the corridors where Amtrak runs frequent service (such as the NEC, Capitol (California), and Hiawatha (Chicago-Milwaukee)) that the airlines have started to worry about it. That's a significant development. The majority of this shift occured post 9/11, but it was already moving, albiet slowly. Amtrak is in trouble not because people don't use it, but because its owners want it to provide service everywhere AND make a profit, which is impossible in this day and age. They are bound by laws covering employees that were written in the 1800's, and have consitantly been starved for the cash needed to improve its equipment and operational abilities to improve their efficency. The last big capital project for Amtrak prior to the Acela launch was the conversion of the heritage equipment to HEP, equipment that is now gone from service without replacement. The media vilifies Amtrak every time there is a collision involving one of their trains, and in some cases call trains of other operators 'Amtrak trains' if they have problems.
Train hits a truck at a crossing? "What did Amtrak do wrong?" say the media.
Train is struck head-on by freight locomotive from host railroad? "Look how many people Amtrak killed!" says the media. There is no mention of the host railroad.
Illinois commuter train strikes truck at crossing. "The Amtrak train carrying commuters from Chicago" says the media. No mention of the truck drivers responsibility for killing the passengers.
Look at the difference between the Amtrak crash at Big Bayou Canot, and the I40 bridge collapse in Oaklahoma. Same case, same effect, but the media coverage on the Canot bridge focused on Amtrak and the failure of the railroad, while the Oaklahoma collapse focused on the wrongdoing of the barge tug and its crew.
-Hank
U know what i did like about these threads is hat we talked about
other than the nyc subway system only !!!
U know what i did like about these threads is that we talked about
other than the nyc subway system only !!!
Someone's probably answered this in the archives, but I wouldn't know where to look.
I took the R in from QB yesterday evening. It got detoured into the 63rd St tunnel quite effectively at 36th St. Once at Lex and 63rd, however, there was a red signal, plus three guys on the platform in vests, two with clipboards and one with a radio. (Leads to jokes about how many TSSs are needed to change a light bulb.)
It took two minutes for them to get the switch moved and the signal turned green, so that the R could be switched onto the 7th Ave track, as opposed to the usual alignment of the F to the 6th Ave track.
There was definitely no R ahead of this one. I'd just missed one and had waited at least 8 minutes for this one. And this GO had been going on all day and all last weekend too, so it wasn't as though this was a novel occurrence.
The use of electric switch machines is one factor. Those things take forever to throw.
Wow, that's the biggest load I've seen you spew in a while.
-Hank
I never said it was the only reason, but those infernal things can't help matters any.
I assume you prefer pnumatics, which ain't all that hot, either. In fact, they're a maintainance headache and prone to seize up in cold weather.
-Hank
But they can throw in .4 seconds.
Only the extra fast types. Most are slower than that. 30 years ago, there was a significant gap between pneumatic and electric. Today, the gap is a lot narrower, and the cost advantage is electric. Pneumatic switch machines, outside of bigass interlockings, are dead, because nobody wants to run signal, air, and power lines to a switch. Since pneumatics freeze, you need to heat the switch up anyway, so you might as well just run it electric - the wiring's already there to power it.
But you are forgetting that pneumatics, the US&S A-10 especially, have a much smaller profile than electric machines. This is ideal for subway tunnel interlockings. If you look at the new interlocking on the Queens Blvd line, they had to cut into the concrete to install the US&S M-3 machines to get them clear of the 3rd rail shoes. A-10's are about 1/2 the height and half the length of other electric machines.
what do you mean by "dead" pneumatic switches?
dead as in, nobody is buying them any more because they cost too much and offer no real advantage over elecrtric. Unless you've got a bigass interlocking or classification yard.
PATH is still %100 pneumatic with no signs of changing. Furthermore, the London Underground just bought a whole host of new pneumatic switch machines cause electrics were too slow for them.
Queesboro Plaza tower controls that area. It is a notorious dead spot (radios) there. The TSS' were probably there to make sure of no wrong line-ups. It seems that the newer the tower, the slower the movment (safety factors). It usually takes 45 seconds for the timer to wind down and to move the switch when a train is on the circuit. I'm not sure of wht happened but that place has had its problems before. 2 minutes is nothing.
45 seconds for what? The T/O collecting retirement?
(I know I'am being harsh)
T/O's have nothing to do with it. They hate it more than the customers do. With a train on the circuit, the tower operator can't move the switch right away especially when a line up was dropped in front of it. Otherwise the rule states, when for any reason it is necessary to divert a train off of its regular route, the switch must not be set for the diverging move or the signal cleared for the move until the train has stopped or unless the tower operator can see the train has slowed down to the allowable speed for the diverging movement.
Let's suppose a train is approaching a home signal. Tower operator for whatever reason finds out too late that where the train is lined up to go is not correct. Tower operator drops the signal in front of the train. Without the safety feature (45 sec.), tower operator throws the switch. Train hits the signal. Train goes into emergency. Momentum carries train to switch. Train has a possibility of picking the switch and derailing while the switch is in transit.
Another scenario, look at the 14 St. tragedy. Suppose a southbound express had a straight line up into 14 St. Grand Central is notified of a delay on the express track south of 14 St. Tower operator/dispatcher does not call the approaching train. Tower drops the signal in front of the train and then (without safety, 45 sec.) moves the switch to diverge from the express to the local track. Boom.
When a train passes a signal protecting a switch, switch cannot be moved by the tower operator. If it is the wrong route, "You break it, you bought it."
In a perfect world, (first example) all T/O's would have recognized a wrong route and have stopped in time before the signal. Second example, the T/O wouldn't have a chance if the conditions were the same that fateful night.
I see that safety is important. But once the previous F train cleared the switch, why couldn't the tower move the switch to the position applicable for the next R and set the signal to red? Then when the R comes to a halt at Lexington/63rd, change the signal to green, since the switch is already correctly set for the train?
Remember, this exact same pattern of Fs and Rs had been going on all day and all the previous weekend.
A red signal does not stop the train instantly. It just puts the train into emergency.
If the R comes along while the switch is changing, and for whatever reason doesn't stop, then bad news, no matter what color the signal is. Much better to leave the switch alone until the R can't possibly foul it.
The only possibility I see would be to throw the switch immediately after the F passes it.
"The only possibility I see would be to throw the switch immediately after the F passes it"
And that is what I was asking - why don't they do that? Why wait 5 minutes till the R is right there, and then holding the R for 2 minutes, before throwing the switch.
Could be another F ... that's why.
How do you guarantee that the first train after any given F is an R?
Are the headways equal? If so, the trains should alternate, but we all know how things go wrong sometimes. If not, they can't alternate forever.
(Perhaps the switch should be set right away for the other route, seeing as it's more likely for a train on the other route to come next, even though it might need to be set back.)
"(Perhaps the switch should be set right away for the other route, seeing as it's more likely for a train on the other route to come next, even though it might need to be set back.) "
This is true, but....
As soon as the trains enter the 63rd Stree Tunnel, the tower *will* know what train will get there next.
Elias
There are a lot of factors. A G.O. is a touchy thing. A lot of people are on edge making sure everything goes well. No wrong line ups. When running the G.O. the area (tower) is put on manual and a tower operator assigned. There is a punch but it is back at 21 St. Tower operator could have mixed up trains or lost one. Tower operator could have been busy on the phone. Tower operator could have went to the bathroom. Tower operator expecting an R could actually be operating according to rule. Not to set a switch for a diverging move until knowing that the train has come to a stop. Then establishing a line up regardless if the switch is 10 feet or 300 or more feet away. Like someone else had said, you don't know what is coming down until they punch at 21 St. Could have a double in service. Tower operator could have possibly questioned the train if the train punched its correct identity. Tower operator could have been inexperienced or new. Could have maybe been a problem at 57/7. Tower operators are human beings. What is supposed to ideally happen in therory doesn't always translate.
Your first example has happened, not a dropped signal but a misread marker board by the tower back before the subway on the elevateds.
Didn't see anyone on the roadbed with a switch machine crank, did you?
Sounds like they were experiencing problems with the signal/switch. that switch only takes 45 sceonds to throw. And since the GO was running, there was no need to move the switch at all.
On the contrary -- normally, that switch doesn't need to move, since the only regular service through there is the F, but this weekend it had to move back and forth to accomodate both the F and the R.
I know. Just a case of typing without thinking.
The Nassau line in the pre 1950's and early 60's was considered one of the most vital lines in New York City, if not the vital line, connecting Brooklyn and Queens with Lower Manhattan, and the finical district. It's massive stations on yield to the proof of it. I think it is time that the city, if a transportation renaissance is being heavily considered. Then what should happen is the following…
1. The Jamaica Avenue Elevated being replaced by a 4 track subway line. But the el will remain open until the opening of the subway line. I do not want a reenactment of the Third Avenue Elevated incident. This would relieve heavy amounts of congestion off of Queens Boulevard, and allow 75 Foot Cars.
2. The Bowery Station, be shut down, and reconfigured to an local station configuration, with 2 side platforms, 4 tracks. Delancey Street will also be reconfigured to 4 tracks, and 2 side platforms.
3. The Chambers Street Station will be totally renovated, the side Platforms retiled to their original state. Stair cases fixed, dirt, plumbing, track ties, and platforms, replaced and fixed. Upgraded to ADA standards. The Central Platform will be torn down and rebuilt as the Lower Manhattan Tower Command. Also it will be a quarters for weekend trains terminating there. The two side platforms will become a memorial, showing pictures of the past Chambers Street Glory, and now the New Glory.
4. The station configuration south of Chambers will remain the same, as local trains will terminate at Chambers with Express trains proceeding south. Except on weekends.
5. The M Line will be extended to Roosevelt Avenue, which will relieve more congestion from the Queens Boulevard Line. The platforms along the elevated section will also extended to allow for 75 ft. cars.
I know this sounds like a dream too, and will never happen. But the benefits will be an improvement along Jamaica Avenue; more people will use it, from Jamaica as an alternate from the E and F lines into Lower Manhattan. Businesses will grow along the avenues. The Jamaica Avenue Line will become a moneymaker line.
We all have dreams of a 4-track subway under Bushwick Av, replacing the Broadway/Jamaica el.
I've never received a hard answer either way about if the Broad St and Fulton St stations can be lengthened to accept 600 foot trains.
I've always wondered what switching this line -- and the whole Eastern Division for that matter -- to the IRT (11-car Flushing line configuration) would do, and if it would be worth the expense. Would Crescent Street be easier?
5. The M Line will be extended to Roosevelt Avenue, which will relieve more congestion from the Queens Boulevard Line. The platforms along the elevated section will also extended to allow for 75 ft. cars.
That's not too far fetched. The ROW exists for extension of the M line to Queens Blvd. The New York Connecting Railroad runs right next to the M line At Metropolitan and continues north towards QB. If you look at a map, notice the alignment of the NYCRR, The station at Metropolitan would have to be lowered and reconfigured, and other stations could be set up at:
The new Metropolitan Ave Station
Eliot Ave
Grand Avenue
Queens Blvd
Roosevelt Ave (terminating there)
Or you could get really ambitious and extended just a little further:
Contiue along the NYCRR ROW to the BQE east wye, along that ROW a little further to La Guardia.
I don't think it would be too hard to do. The NYCRR is built for 2 tracks, and they only use 1. They could either widen the ROW to allow for 3 tracks (2 for the M train and i for the freight), or they could build this extension as an el over the NYCRR ROW, either way very little new ROW would be needed, even if it went beyond Roosevelt to La Guardia.
Between which streets is the NYCRR? - it's not shown on my map.
It's hard to describe if the NYCRR is not on your map, but try this:
Follow the M line north and continue straight after Metro.
-stay to the left of Juniper Park
-right of 75th St
-right of 74th St
-diagnal from the intersection of Queens Blvd and 74th St to the intersection of Northern and 62 st.
-then just left of the BQE, and fairly straight after that to the Hell Gate Bridge
The r.o.w. actually goes thru a corner of the cemetery, across the street from the Metro Av terminus. If you go there, you'll see tracks amidst the tombstones.
>>>>That's not too far fetched. The ROW exists for extension of the M line to Queens Blvd. The New York
Connecting Railroad runs right next to the M line At Metropolitan and continues north towards QB.<<
Still used for freight, sparsely, like the Bay Ridge LIRR.
www.forgotten-ny.com
That's why the ROW would have to be made wide enough for 3 tracks...one for the freight, and two for extension of the M line. Either that or the M line extension would have to be built over the NYCRR ROW. I would never want the freight service ended, as that would not be in the regions best interest. Freight needs to be increased not decreased. I know the ROW was built for two tracks. WOuld there be room to make it 3 tracks, or would they have to build the M line over it? A good part of the NYCRR is in a cut, so I guess that it would be possible to build the M as modern el over the ROW>
1. The Jamaica Avenue Elevated being replaced by a 4 track subway line. But the el will remain open until the opening of the subway line. I do not want a reenactment of the Third Avenue Elevated incident. This would relieve heavy amounts of congestion off of Queens Boulevard, and allow 75 Foot Cars.
75 ft cars have their weaknesses as well as strengths. These have been gone into in great detail on another thread. Even if the Jamaica Line were rebuilt so they could be accomodated, AFAIK they still could not fit round the curve between Bowery and Canal St.
The El could do with replacement. However, I would suggest that a modern El structure would do an equally good job, possibly 2 level to allow it to be narrow, whilst returning to single level for Broadway / Myrtle and Broadway Junction stations.
2. The Bowery Station, be shut down, and reconfigured to an local station configuration, with 2 side platforms, 4 tracks. Delancey Street will also be reconfigured to 4 tracks, and 2 side platforms.
I disagree with you about the Bowery. This station was constructed with a view to a transfer to a future Third Av Subway - that's why it's such a ridiculously long way down. As it stands, there is no Third Av Subway. However, a connector could be constructed to Grand / Christie within fare control, to give the Bowery added importance as a transfer station.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on Essex / DeLancey. Perhaps the trolleys could be resuscitated too...
3. is another point of absolute agreement.
4. The station configuration south of Chambers will remain the same, as local trains will terminate at Chambers with Express trains proceeding south. Except on weekends.
I'd say change it. Express should continue to Broad St, or via new construction under Park Row below the 4-5 Line and Vesey St to the future WTC Hub. The Broad St Branch would close at weekends.
The Local I have a much more radical idea for. Take it across into Brooklyn then back up Myrtle Avenue, with a Lexington Avenue branch (all 2 track, with more widely spaced stations than the old els).
That would allow 2 Local services to operate, with a couple of additional expansion ideas thrown in:
(M) ROOSEVELT AV, own ROW, Myrtle Av, Broadway, Centre St Loop, Myrtle Av, Lexington Av, Broadway, CYPRESS HILLS
(Z) JAMAICA, extended Myrtle Av Line, Myrtle Av, Centre St Loop, Broadway, new Rockaway Bvd Branch, JFK AIRPORT
5. The M Line will be extended to Roosevelt Avenue, which will relieve more congestion from the Queens Boulevard Line. The platforms along the elevated section will also extended to allow for 75 ft. cars.
I approve of the extension to Roosevelt Av, but the platform lengthening is really not a great idea.
I know this sounds like a dream too, and will never happen. But the benefits will be an improvement along Jamaica Avenue; more people will use it, from Jamaica as an alternate from the E and F lines into Lower Manhattan. Businesses will grow along the avenues. The Jamaica Avenue Line will become a moneymaker line.
I quite agree, but it's a nice dream, plus it has the potential to work. Let me add:
6. ATO - full railfan window :D
7. Conversion to "Pneu" operation - like they have in Lille, Toulouse, Rennes, and of course Paris.
7. Conversion to "Pneu" operation - like they have in Lille, Toulouse, Rennes, and of course Paris.
And Montréal. But have you ever spent much time in a "pneu" station? If it's anywhere near a curve, the smell of overheated rubber is overwhelming, and it's noticeable anywhere in the system (at least in Montréal, the only such system I've been in).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it's anywhere near a curve, the smell of overheated rubber is overwhelming
Platform edge doors reduce the smell of "pneu" stations almost entirely, partly because that allows air-con to be used more easily. The only "pneu" station I can think of near a very sharp curve is Bastille in Paris, and that is IIRC en pleine aire. It may be a perculiarity of the Montréal system that causes that sort of problem.
However, burning rubber is not the worst thing subway stations smell of (I'll resist the temptation to talk about the P-train). "Pneu" has such overwhelming advantages in terms of acceleration and braking that it is very much suited to subways. Nor would one be waiting long for a "pneu" train - combined with ATO, in Lille they can run up to 60 tph and actually do run 48tph five days a week in the rush hour. Now that is impressive.
"75 ft cars have their weaknesses as well as strengths. These have been gone into in great detail on another thread. Even if the Jamaica Line were rebuilt so they could be accomodated, AFAIK they still could not fit round the curve between Bowery and Canal St. "
Why do you say that? This is a fairly gentle curve. Unlike many underground curves, this one goes under the building at the corner, because the building was built after the tunnel was constructed.
The best way to make this line more important is to go with the option that hooks it into the lower half of the Second Avenue Subway. More people would use the southern half of the line, and the unused Chyrsitie Street link could be connected to the Second Avenue line northbound.
But it will never be as important as it was, because Lower Manhattan will never be as important as it was. To see why, see the movie "The Apartment" and look at what an office was like in 1960 -- rows and rows of clerks. These have been replaced by computers, and offices have gotten bigger. "The Apartment" was filmed at 2 Broadway, now the MTA offices. I doubt there are half the people per floor that there were when the building opened in 1960.
Wasn't the garment district still down there when it was built, too?
Plus Williamsburg/Greenpoint wasa MAJOR industrial center.
(Wasn't the garment district still down there when it was built, too?
Plus Williamsburg/Greenpoint wasa MAJOR industrial center.)
Brooklyn manufacturing peaked in 1953 or 1954, and Queens manufacturing peaked in 1967 (hence the G line). So that may have made the line more important.
I think the dual contracts helped to relocate the Garment and Theater industries to Times Square before WWII, and that Soho became largely vacant in the depression until it filled with those sewing uniforms.
Offices moved later. The Met Life, New York Life, Con Edison and Empire State buildings were built on Union, Madison, and Herald Squares before WWII. Then everyone moved to the suburbs, and the offices moved to East Midtown to be near the execs coming into GCT.
When the Empire State Building was built, the center of Midtown was already in the 40s. The "Empty State Building" suffered not just from being built at the peak of the depression, but also because it was part of a failed attempt to move the center of the city to 34th Street.
The ESB did not achieve peak occupancy until the 1950s.
The J did quite admirably filling in for the R/N while the Church St tunnel was closed post 9/11...one of its finest latterday moments.
>>>>1. The Jamaica Avenue Elevated being replaced by a 4 track subway line. But the el will remain
open until the opening of the subway line. I do not want a reenactment of the Third
Avenue Elevated incident. This would relieve heavy amounts of congestion off of Queens
Boulevard, and allow 75 Foot Cars. <<<
Would you keep the Broadway el?
Remember, Jamaica Avenue did not reap the same results 3rd and 6th Avenues did when their els were torn down...indeed, scrapping the Jamaica Ave el east of 124th Street served to further depress the area.
Sometimes tearing down els does more harm than good, despite what E Dog says.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but I have only ridden the R143's once on the L (and I was in a hurry to catch a LIRR train at East New York so I only rode it from Myrtle to Atlantic, and didn't have much time to really look at it.) It was a nice surprise that I caught it, it just so happened to come in the station (It was when they were still testing them a few months back)
Anyway, all this talk about the locked doors on the 75 foot cars got me thinking. Are the doors locked on the 143's? All the 60 foot cars we have now have small cabs and "railfan" windows, and you can walk from one end of the train to the other. I assume on the 143's you can only walk half the train if they are unlocked.
ALso, are all the R143's going to be four car units? That would basically render them useless on lines that currently use 10 car trains. (I know the R143's are to stay on the eastern division for now)
But as they continue to replace the 60 foot cars eventually they will get to the lines that have 10 car trains. Is part of the 143 order coming (near the end) in 5 car sets? Or are the R160's going to be 5 car sets? Or will they have some sets that are 2 car sets, that could be used on either the Eastern Division or the rest of the B Division, together as full length trains, or as "fillers" to make a 8 car train a 10 car train?
The end doors on R-143's are unlocked within each 4-car set. As you surmise, that means that passengers have free access within half of the train but have to step out to reach the other half.
The R-143 order is a small order whose sole purpose is to expand the fleet by running on the Eastern Division lines and clearing up some of the R-40's, R-40M's, and R-42's that make up the Eastern Division for other lines. Already, some R-40's have gone from ENY to Coney Island, and Coney Island has given up some of its R-32's and R-68's.
The much larger R-160 order will have some 4-car sets and some 5-car sets.
The much larger R-160 order will have some 4-car sets and some 5-car sets.
That's what I figured, but I guess that means that the Eastern Division trains will, for the most part (aside from possibly lines like the C), remain on the Eastern Division throughout their lives.
The much larger R-160 order will have some 4-car sets and some 5-car sets.
I can see the tea leaves now - more TSS's to count cars coming in from the yards as a set of 4's and set of 5's get miscounted in a drillout and arrive as a car short in the terminal. "Know your lineup" will fall to second place in signage ... but I suppose it's better than pulling into a terminal with 12 cars. :)
If the NYCS is planning to go all OPTO, why don't they make the cabs halfable? It'll increase capacity in the long run.
Security concerns. They are worried that if they make breakdown cabs, someone will hide in the broken down section and then jump out. If they design the section right, it shouldn't be a problem. I would use the design on the DC Metro. The window behind the T/O has a cover over it so you can't see through, the center window has something over it so it is practically impossible to see through, the left most window is perfectly clear and unobstucted.
Can you explain better?
Just in case the other post gets deleted, here's a new thread with what I'd posted in the other thread, as a backup. I think the other thread is doomed because AcelaExpress2005 appears to be fighting people (including me) in that thread.
Re: Boston RR Stations
Posted by AEM7 on Sun Jun 16 16:43:06 2002, in response to Question on Boston RR Stations WAS: Re: Amtrak California vs. Amtrak Northeast Corridor, posted by Piggo12 on Sun Jun 16 15:38:09 2002.
Can anyone provide some background and/or history on the three RR stations in Boston,
Boston south side services used to be handled by three separate railroads: Boston & Providence, New York & New England, and Boston & Albany. Through acquisition, NYNH&H bought into Boston and by 1895 had controlled most of the tracks on the south side, except those of the B&A which was controlled by the NYC. South Station was a purpose-built Union Station which was supposed to consolidate all the moves into Boston. The Boston Terminal Company was held 80% by NH and 20% by B&A. The Boston & Maine, which had its own North Station terminal and was rivals with B&A for westward services, stayed out of the union terminal. Back Bay station was the site of a B&A/B&P diamond (the current Amtrak (ex-NH, ex-B&P) Shore Line used to cross the B&A at Back Bay and then continue onto Park Sq., approximately where the current Park St. Rapid Transit station is).
It's interesting to note that the old route between NYP and BOS isn't actually via the Boston & Providence -- in fact, before NH took over the New England Railroad, trains would come up to BOS via what is currently the Readville Line. The Boston & Providence of course was built straight as an arrow all the way down to a ferry terminal in East Providence where ferries departed for Long Island. In a sense, the all-train routing of the New England Railroad competed with the intermodal routing of LIRR+ferry+Boston & Providence. Before the New England Railroad completed its route between New Haven and Boston via Middletown, CT; Williamantic, CT; Mechanicsville, CT; Douglas, MA; Franklin, MA; Norwood, MA; Readville, MA, the New England mountain range was considered impenetratable by land-based transport. By the turn of the century, there were at least three routes competing for traffic between New Haven and Boston: the current Inland Route via Springfield, by B&A; the mostly-abandoned NER route described above; the intermodal route via Long Island and to a lesser extent the Shore Line by NH.
why there is no connection between North and South
There was never really a reason to connect B&M to the Union Station. If necessary, exchange of cars from B&M to the South Side could be accomplished at B&A's Beacon Yard (a move which still takes place for sending Amtrak/MBTA cars to Southampton St Yd.) Since Boston was considered a major destination, the number of passengers connecting through Boston was considered insignificant.
what role does/did Back Bay play,
It was supposed to serve the city's West End, a role which it still plays.
is it really as close to South Station as it appears on the commuter rail route map?
It's about 1.5 miles out, the train takes 5 mins, Rapid Transit takes about 10 mins. I don't recall ever having walked it (it was always easier to wait for the transit) but I've certainly walked parts of the route and it's not really that far.
Don't come up to Boston looking to walk around old stuff. The building of the Mass Pike in the 60s destroyed most of the railroad history around there. The section of B&A trackage and RoW between Back Bay and a point slightly east of Route 128 is still owned by Massachusetts Turnpike Authority.
AEM7
AEM7, Did read the Post where I said I was wrong about what I said?
Thanks for the info! If I read your post correctly, Back Bay is a station on the way into South Station to serve a different part of the city of Boston, it is not a terminal. Did I get that right?
Piggo
Back Bay is a station on the way into South Station to serve a different part of the city of Boston, it is not a terminal.
Yes. It has 4 tracks, I think, and all trains are through trains. There's a few screwy MBTA runs to/from Foxboro which goes round the wye and/or reverse such that they come from the suburbs via the Shore Line and then reverse at Back Bay and then follow the Boston & Albany out towards Ruggles on ball game days, but I am not sure about the details of those trains.
AEM7
Back Bay has five tracks.
Three on the Main Line (Attleboro/Providence), and two on the Framingham/Worcester. They are separated by the Orange Line's two-track right-of-way.
what role does/did Back Bay play,
It was supposed to serve the city's West End, a role which it still plays.
What role did the Trinity Place Station play? :-)
Don't come up to Boston looking to walk around old stuff. The building of the Mass Pike in the 60s destroyed most of the railroad history around there.
I could understand the Pike destroying the physical artifacts. It appears to have destroyed knowledge of the past as well. :-)
OK, then, there was lots of historical inaccuracies in my message. So why don't you kindly point them out? My post was based on 10 minutes' worth of research out of limited sources I have at home.
AEM7
I once found myself on an amtrak using the inland route to Boston via Springfield and saw some abandoned stations along the way. Anyone know what they were?
www.forgotten-ny.com
They're getting rebuilt.
This is Boston & Albany Train #450, Albany Local calling at all station stops on departure from South Station... Back Bay, Brookline Jct., Brighton, Newton, Newtonville, West Newton, Auburndale, Wellesley Farms, Wellesley Hills, Wellesley Square, Natick, West Natick, Framingham, Ashland*, Cordaville, Westboro*, North Grafton*, Worcester, Palmer, Springfield, Pittsfield, Chatham, arriving at Albany at 1906 hours...
* these stations are included in the MBTA plan for reopening, with Grafton nearly complete and Ashland well into construction.
AEM7
Can anyone list for me all AMTRAK locomotives which run on 3rd rail power, where they run, and photos if possible.
Thank You.
I know the P-42 Genesis Locomotive has Diesel/Third Rail Power, And that's about it.
No, those are P-32s in the 7xx series. P-42's are in the 1-120 series, and are diesel only. The old P-40's are in the 8xx series (but they have now been rebuilt to P-42's). These are also diesel only. There used to be a fleet of FL-9's, those were dual mode.
AEM7
Thanks for the Info AEM7.
Do 3rd rail powered AMTRAK trains travel fast or at a decent speed?
There's not that many miles to run on third rail. Just in Penn Station and on the connection to the West Side.
Nope.
They only use the third rail for switching into NYP.
Even on the West Side line, they run on diesel power (that line being well ventilated).
Elias
Nope.
They only use the third rail for switching into NYP.
Even on the West Side line, they run on diesel power (that line being well ventilated).
Elias
What about on the tracks that it shares with Metro-North from the Bronx to Croton-Harmon? Do Amtrak trains ever use electricity there, like the Metro-North trains do?
- Lyle Goldman
That's one I never thought of asking the guys over in Rensselaer. I know the turbos run on their own house power all the way in and out of NYP, the Genesis units COULD switch over but somehow I ***guess*** that they don't until they're actually in the interlock *at* NYP. I know electric-only (above or below) is REQUIRED in Penn ...
Wonder if anyone knows for sure, it's a while to the weekend and the gin mills. :)
It would be a bad idea to go from overrunning third rail, diesel power, then back to third rail, but underrunning, and back to diesel again pass Harmon.
E60s or something like that?
E60s are powered from the cat. They go MEOW.
MEOW!!!!!!!!!!
Here are some illustrative photos, of power on the Lake Shore changing engines in Rensselaer on Sep 3, 2001, taken on my way home from the SubTalk Chicago field trip last year:
first P42 after trip from Chicago
dual mode P32AC-DM being added for trip to NYP
3rd rail shoe (retracted)
Kewl! (third rail shoe trick, seen the rest) Dang! If I'd known you were around, we woulda come get you and sentenced you to a few days in the company bar. :)
I finally got to ride a #7 express to Main St/Flushing on Friday afternoon, and was surprised how quick it took to do the whole route. Is it just me, or do the R62As go faster on the elevated portions, meaning the whole line will be faster once the last redbird is gone? -Nick
The 7 express has always been a very fast express
It saves about 6 minutes over the local. Nothing spectacular for bypassing 10 stops; perhaps it's a bit faster than average.
Want something spectacular in bypassing 10 stops?
Film it. And call us in the morning. :)
Been there, done that, in both directions, day time and night time.
--Mark
bet my video beats yours !! would anyone want 2 vote on dat" ???
That is not the only consideration. Every stop gives you the opportunity to have your schedule blow up. High school kids, stupid fights because people block the door, baby strollers, nutty homeless, ladies men that will hold the door for anything in a skirt, car hoppers, yada, yada, yada.
I would venture that the stand dev from the schedule is much higher on the local with express service looking more symetrical on a graph.
You are correct sir. Every stop on the 7 from 111 to Woodside there is potential door holding. This is on Saturday where trains are at a whopping: "4 minute headway". I dont even bother to argue because I dont think most of these will understand what Im saying................
Well, I'll tell you this much: It's a whole heck of a lot more comfortable! Better looking, too I think!
:-) Andrew
What do you mean by looking? YOu caa barly look out the railfan windows it is so small. But it is very clear.
no railfan window at all in one direction !
Better than no railfan window in either direction...
The Redbirds are still pretty swift on the 7 express.
Amen to this.
Ok, so it sounds like this line has always been pretty fast. Hard for me to tell, since I've only ridden the redbird express line once in awhile. But at least the ride will be air conditioned! -Nick
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
the good old redbirds "R" pretty FAST on the # 7 line !!!!
>>>>go redbird go man <<<<<<<<
I concur. When you're on an R62A express home, you cann't feel anything!
Though with those Redbirds, the car and the people shake so violently, I'm surprised people have filed litigation suits! You will never, ever have the experience with the R62A's or with any new train stocl for that matter!
Wait, a mere grammatical error! People haven't filed litigation suits. At least, not to my knowledge!
They are also faster at receiving R62s. Cars in the 2098-2109 range \were transferred there tonight via the Concourse line.
I took my first Silverbird #7 today and it was faster than molasses, I'll tell ya that.
And air conditioned. Going back in the afternoon it was so nice to step on to an air conditioned 7 train.
In the morning I had a Redbird and it was hot (and no it was the 1st car, not a single)
I took my first Silverbird #7 today and it was faster than molasses, I'll tell ya that.
Yeah, that set left Livonia yard at around 7:30pm last night.
Sounds good, the weather is getting hot..the more a/c the better! -Nick
All this talk about lines that shouldn't exist and stations that could be eliminated has got me wondering, what station has the lowest ridership in the NYC Subway? Please don't post your speculations, if I had to guess, it would probably be Bowery on the J and M but I really have no idea. Can the person with all the ridership stats post the answer? Also, if you want to give the lowest 5 or lowest 10, it would be interesting to see but the lowest one will do.
Thanks, in advance.
I believe that a couple of the A stations in the Rockaways are on the bottom of the list.
I believe Aqueduct Racetrack has the lowest ridership, but it's a part-time station with no southbound platform.
Of full-time stations, I believe the title goes to one of the Rockaways stations, or possibly Broad Channel.
Before it was closed, Dean Street on the Franklin shuttle had the lowest paid ridership, although possibly/probably not the lowest ridership including farebeats.
I believe Atlantic Ave (L line) is the lowest ridership in Brooklyn, and the lowest in Manhattan is Bowery, however I don't know if either of those are the lowest in the System.
BTW, what are the lowest in Queens and the Bronx? Obviously the lowest in the entire system would be one of those four stations.
Actually, IIRC, Atlantic mentioned in my post above is the lowest "regular" line station (not Shuttle). I believe one of the Franklin Shuttle stations are the lowest in Brooklyn. So scratch Atlantic....
Before it was closed, Dean Street on the Franklin shuttle had the lowest paid ridership, although possibly/probably not the lowest ridership including farebeats.
Legend has it that Dean Street averaged 75 paid fares and 3X that many turnstile-jumpers in its final years.
Broad Channel can get a lot of school riders. I can recall being on the platform a few times when it was packed with high school kids.
Broad Channel is also the only subway stop convenient to the Jamaica Bay National Wildlife Refuge. If you like bird watching, the Refuge is a prime spot (the best in NY), and the "A" train is the way to get there.
Ding!
The "winner" is indeed Aqueduct Racetrack, with 40,180 riders in 2000. Next are:
B. 105th Street: 67,523
Broad Channel: 88,968
Beach 44th Street: 112,608
Beach 98th Street: 172,991
Beach 36th Street: 177,949
The station that has the lowest ridership outside the Rockaways is E. 143rd Street (Pelham Line): 230,725
DAvid
Bowery has the lowest ridership in Manhattan. The old Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle only had about 50 paid fares a day. There are some in the Rockaways that are surrounded on both sides by massive empty lots, so im sure these are up there.
Even it's gone Dean Street got about $50 a day in fares. Today I belive it's 23 street/Ely Avenue.
Or 21st on the G
You may be right, vaguely I remember hearing that 21st-Van Alst may be the lowest in Queens. Hard to believe it would be lower than some of those Rockaway stations though.
Ely/23rd is connected to the Court Square complex that the G terminates at. Can that really be possible? Doesn't Ely and Court Square count as one fare control/station? There's no way to tell if people using that station are using the Ely station or the Court Square station.
Court Square on the 7 is a slow station, the slowest on the line with about 1.1 million fares/year. But i think its about twice as busy as 39th Av on the N Astoria line.
I meant Court Square on the G, but that's interesting, I'm sure the G one will be even lower. The difference with the G one though is that it's a transfer station. It may get a lot of foot traffic, but not many fares. So even though a station may have low fare entry, it may have a lot of people actually suing the station, and entering and exiting trains. There's no way to get numbers on that though.
So even though a station may have low fare entry, it may have a lot of people actually suing the station
dumb typo... I meant "using" the station not "suing" it
So even though a station may have low fare entry, it may have a lot of people actually suing the station
dumb typo... I meant "using" the station not "suing" it
LOL! You never know with this litigation culture...
Funny how you would make a typo like this concerning a station called Court Square. Must be a Freudian slip-
For whatever it's worth, lots of people enter the whole 23rd-Ely/Court Square complex during the week thanks to the Citicorp tower, the tallest building on Long Island. There's a direct entrance from the building to the entrance located midway on the connecting passageway between the two stations. So it's not clear which one would get the credit.
Even before the connection was built, there was a fair number of people using the G station. There's not only the courthouse for which the station is named, but Long Island City is a heavily industrial area, making for lots of jobs. With the G being the only direct subway line from northern Queens to Brooklyn, there's probably many people who use the G to commute from their homes in Brooklyn to their jobs in LIC.
For whatever it's worth, lots of people enter the whole 23rd-Ely/Court Square complex during the week thanks to the Citicorp tower, the tallest building on Long Island. There's a direct entrance from the building to the entrance located midway on the connecting passageway between the two stations. So it's not clear which one would get the credit.
The two are treated as a single station for the purposes of ridership statistics. (The same goes for all other transfer points. I'm not sure if Bleecker northbound is separated from Bleecker southbound and Broadway-Lafayette; I doubt it, as other stations with separate northbound and southbound entrances are treated as single stations.)
If transfer point stations are treated as one, which would carry the
statistics for a specific station. Example: Lorimer Street (L) is
not 24/7 at its named entrance. Late nights and weekends you have to
enter\exit via Metropolitan Avenue (GG). At one time there were seperate turnstiles for the (GG) and 14th Street Line on the mezzanine. Would the two sets of swipes be counted individually or all as one, since you can still reach the (GG) via either side?
:-) Sparky
That entire complex is counted as one station. It doesn't matter if you enter all the way at the far east end of the L platform; you still might walk to the other end and get on the G. In other words, for this purpose, Lorimer Street on the L and Metropolitan Avenue on the G is one station, even though it has two names.
Funny how you would make a typo like this concerning a station called Court Square. Must be a Freudian slip-
I swear it was an honest "reverse letter" typo! The "using" came out like "suing" - s and u reversed. Like you said it's funny how it just so happened on a "Court Square" post!
I agree with the direction of travel from Brooklyn to LIC with
workers for the area. The "GG" is a vital transit link for
many factory workers, white collar types and a heavily used by
students. But, after normal hours of business and PS-1, what is
the Ridership at 21th-Van Alst.
:-) Sparky
I meant Court Square on the G, but that's interesting, I'm sure the G one will be even lower. The difference with the G one though is that it's a transfer station. It may get a lot of foot traffic, but not many fares. So even though a station may have low fare entry, it may have a lot of people actually suing the station, and entering and exiting trains. There's no way to get numbers on that though.
The lowest ridership award goes to....
Beach - 105th on the A in the Rockaways.
I plan to stop at that station on a future field trip.
Thats surprising-I woulda thought it would be Beach 44th or somewhere in there.
Actually I would feel that does make sense. The shuttle part of the Rockaway line is significantly more affulent, people there are more likely to have their own cars. On the Far Rock side, you have more housing projects, both higher population density and in general a poorer population, more likely to use mass transit.
The shuttle part is just as poor as the main part. But in the case of 105th, there really is nothing there. 44th has projects nearby.
All of the shuttle's use probably comes from 116th, where people could walk or take the Q22 or Q35 to get there, but those people in Belle Harbor or Neponsit have cars. They can also take the Q35 going in the other direction to the Flatbush Junction, which is probably faster.
The Rockaway Park branch should be converted to light rail, extended to Riis Park and into Brooklyn.
Defenatly not light rail. NO compatability which will question its future. There is no PCC standards any more.
I'm truly impressed that a GO of this magnitude could go completely unnoticed by whoever notifies the public -- not only did it never make it online, it never made it to #3333 and no signs were printed up. The only signage at Brooklyn Bridge was handwritten (and it had the wrong date, too).
For those just tuning in, all 4, 5, and 6 trains from the Bronx were running local in Manhattan in both directions and terminaing at Brooklyn Bridge. Service south of Brooklyn Bridge was via special 4 trains that ran between the northbound express track at Brooklyn Bridge and Utica.
To my surprise, passengers were not being permitted to ride through the City Hall loop, even though that forced anyone trying to continue further south to cross over to the uptown platform. IMO, the downtown platform should have simply been taped off, with downtown trains from Canal bypassing Brooklyn Bridge, going through the loop, and stopping only at the uptown platform, with easier transfers to service further downtown. Does anybody know why this wasn't done?
Probably to decrease the number of people who watched Brooklyn Bridge go by, only to reappear there again moments later. If they could turn off the lights in half the station and then use the loop, you might be able to pull it off, but then you have the issue of how to convince people to get on a train to Brooklyn running in the opposite direction (the local would now be heading north).
I don't think they're allowed to turn lights off in a station. Plus the tower's on that side, and if the lights were off the tower operators could fall in.
But I agree, they should have run the trains around the loop. It would have save the tower personnel from having to prod people up the stairs. Oh well, next weekend.
No need to turn off the lights. Just tape off the platform. It's done all the time, e.g., at three-track express stations when all service in one direction is running express (like the J this weekend at Broadway Junction and Myrtle). So what if some passengers get a bit nervous as the train appears to be skipping their stop?
But what's this you say about next weekend? A repeat of the same GO?
I've no idea if it will be on again next week, but if it is they might do it better.
Actually, the C/R could just make an announcement about them skipping BB then stopping at it. Those who don't hear or understand it won't notice anyway.
Conductors made a similar announcement with the F when they had to pull into 71/Continental twice due to a G.O. a while back.
Conductors made a similar announcement with the F when they had to pull into 71/Continental twice due to a G.O. a while back.
Please elaborate.
"This train will enter the station twice. The first time, the doors will not open. We will then reverse direction and re-enter the station where you may then exit."
All the conductors had variations, but that was the general message.
A little tweaking and that could apply to Brooklyn bridge.
But what was the purpose of the GO? Why did trains need to enter the station twice?
That's because the train re-entered the station on a different track. The crossover south of Continental was OOS. The F came s/b to Continental, and reversed into the N/B track, before continuing down to Roosevelt Av (on the n/b exp).
-Stef
>It would have save the tower personnel from having to prod people up the stairs.
There was ONE person in a vest directing people to the NB platforms and checking the train to make sure it was empty. She needed a lot more help. And compare this to about 7 people at Prosepect Park helping people out during a well publicized G.O. This 4/5/6 G.O. was screwed up royally.
That's life on the Lex in a nutshell.
But look at who was at Prospect Park - one arriving road crew, one departing road crew, two switchmen for the realy move, two Platform C/Rs, and a TSS. It could be that when you passed through Brooklyn Bridge, the other platform person was taking a potty break.
If there were delays and a train had to stop while in the loop a passanger could detrain between cars and have access to the City Hall Station.
Not all trains went uptown local. They got so backed up around noon, my northbound 5 went express out of Brooklyn Bridge!!
If there were delays and a train had to stop while in the loop a passanger could detrain between cars and have access to the City Hall Station.
So hold trains at the SB platform (without opening doors) until the loop ahead is clear. At least when I was there, a few hours after you, each train that left the SB platform reappeared at the NB platform a minute later (and lots of people who had just gotten off the SB train and crossed over tried to get on the very same train going NB, thinking it was running further south).
"They got so backed up around noon, my northbound 5 went express out of Brooklyn Bridge!!"
That must have been interesting further uptown. At 86th the lower level platform was marked out of bounds with red ribbon.
I've been on a train that stopped at 86th and 59th lower while it was taped off. Exiting passengers simply look for an exit that's not taped off, and if they can't find one someone has the brains to break through and everyone uses that one.
[To my surprise, passengers were not being permitted to ride through the City Hall loop, even though that forced anyone trying to continue further south to cross over to the uptown platform. IMO, the downtown platform should have simply been taped off, with downtown trains from Canal bypassing Brooklyn Bridge, going through the loop, and stopping only at the uptown platform, with easier transfers to service further downtown. Does anybody know why this wasn't done?]
Maybe the Giuliani-inspired ban on passengers riding through the City Hall loop is still in effect. (Bloomberg ran his campaign on a "Rudy-is-God-and-I'm-his-place-holder-for-the-next-four-years" platform, so he's not about to undo any of Rudy's edicts.)
No, I believe the City Hall loop is now officially revenue trackage.
So passengers should still be permitted to go through anyway, right?
In theory, although many T/O's and C/R's either don't realize it or just don't feel like letting passengers stay on.
The last time I rode through the loop, I hid behind the cab in the ninth car (and was treated to an amusing conversation between the T/O and the C/R over the PA).
The first time I rode the loop was about 1990. I had always heard about the station, but never seen it. I was with a friend and we decided we were going to stay on the train. Like fools we stayed in the first car, and were told by the TO that BB was the last stop and we had to get off. We asked him if we could stay on because we heard there was a station there. He actually was all excited that we knew about it and told us a little about it and said we could stay on, but that he really wasn't suppose to let us stay on.
When we got to the uptown BB platform he jumped out and asked if we enjoyed it. I guess we were lucky to get a really freindly TO.
Mostly the chase people off on the assumption that the geese do not realize that it *is* the last stop, and believe that they are doing them a favor by not hauling them off in the wrong direction.
If you ask to ride through the loop because you want to see the station they will usually let you.
If they still argue, you can pull out the directive stating that it *is* revenue track.
Anyway, you will never have to go that far. They will let you ride if you ask.
Elias
I asked on Sunday and the T/O gave me a surprised "no."
The first time I rode through the loop, in the mid-90's, I asked three T/O's before I found one who would let me ride.
I could get argumentative but I prefer to save that for more serious concerns.
Yeah, it's easier just to get off and wait for the next train and T/O. There was nothing better than the first time I went around the loop though. Now, it's not quite as exciting anymore, as I was actually at the station once for a City Hall Transit Museum Tour, and again on a "Day One on the IRT" tour, which did City Hall, 18th St, 14th St Local Platforms, Brooklyn Bridge Local Platforms, & 91st St.
A #2 G.O. has it terminating at 238 Street, is it using #2 or #5 strip maps and/or announcements?
TO WAKEFIELD-241, as usual.
AFAIK, the only destinations that can appear on the 2's side signs are WAKEFIELD-241 and FLATBUSH AVE. If the T/O was on-the-ball, he could have removed that one stop from the program. The train would still have been signed the same but the strip map light at 241st would have been turned off.
Why on earth would it have been signed as a 5?
#5 has To Nereid Avenue to match the G.O.
The Redbirds probably had E 238 Street (which is why they should be kept, easier to update).
#5 has To Nereid Avenue to match the G.O.
A tiny minority of 2 passengers -- well under 1%, I'd guess -- stay on until 241st. To all but that tiny minority, the 2 was acting as usual, running on the West Side. Signing it as a 5 would have confused all of them.
Even to those going to or from 241st, don't you think signing the 2 as a 5 would have confused them? The trains could be signed as 2's, and passengers would be informed that 2's are terminating one stop early. Or the trains could be signed as 5's, and passengers would be informed that (a) the 5 is running all weekend, including nights, to a terminal that it normally only serves rush hours, (b) those 5's (but not the Dyre 5's) are running on the West Side line, (c) those 5's (but not the Dyre 5's) are running to Brooklyn, where they don't usually go on weekends or even middays, and (d) those 5's are running local, not express, in Brooklyn.
The Redbirds probably had E 238 Street (which is why they should be kept, easier to update).
In this case, who really cares? I'm as big a fan of the Redbirds as you'll find here, but this isn't a big deal at all.
I meant using #5 announcements to have 238 say last stop, please leave the train. Of course R-62's and Redbirds should have been used on the #2 line.
The C/R or T/O (I'm not sure which, probably the C/R) can manually trigger that announcement.
Maybe he was thinking something like this...
5 to Wakefield 241? So some #5's do go to 241 Street.
2 to Nereid Av should be the destination
But 2 trains were running their usual West Side route, only they were terminating one stop early. (Nice pic, though.)
They couldn't switch announcements at E 180? New trains should be able to do that. Redbirds (and even R-62's) are more flexible. The TA will regret sinking those Redbirds. Only a Redbird can show a #5 terminating at Times Square (like last month)
I am sure once they iron out the more important things that are wrong with these trains, they will update their announcements and destination signs so that they announce the Q, V, and W and can display "unusual" readings such as the 5 to Times Square, 2 to 238th, 2 to Utica, and things like that. Right now, some of those trains can't even make it to Wakefield or Flatbush Avenue.
Dave and all
I like to add the Morning Sun Book on the New York Streetcars to my collection. But it seems Amazon does not carry this publisher. Should I keep looking, or is Morning Sun Books not part of the Amazon line of publisher (and help support NYCSUBWAY.ORG).
Phil,
I have no idea what gets carried by Amazon or how they work. I suspect many little publishers aren't "big" enough to hit Amazon's radar screen...
-Dave
Unless the policy has changed very recently, Amazon will catalog any book with an ISBN number. They used to automatically accept two copies for warehousing and more if they sold.
They now have a policy where you can submit books (with ISBN??) for them to carry at (IIRC) 45% of list.
This policy of carrying anything has been criticized from time to time because it means that they'll carry porn or hate books if they have the magic number.
No major complaints here. There were, of course, the usual confused people whose questions would have been answered had they bothered to read the signs staring them in the face. And in case anyone's wondering, C trains were running local from W4 to 34th, with the express track taped off at 34th.
But what really shocked me was that the 6th Avenue line doesn't have 8-car C/R boards. This caught our T/O for a loop, since it was apparently his first northbound trip of the day and he didn't expect to have to give two buzzes at each stop, and this seemed to annoy the C/R. By 42nd he had it figured out. The same GO is on next weekend; what are the chances 8-car boards are up by then?
Does the F59 Locomotive have 5,900 Horsepower? And Can anyone else give me some technical stats about this Loco? Thanks
NO NO NO NO NO. It has somewhere between 3000 and 3500 hp, I think its normally 3000.
Sounds right. The highest hp offered on a diesel loco is still substantially less than an electric loco (for obvious reasons).
Certain GE Genesis units in Amtrak service reach 4500 horses (source: GE). Maybe there are some new ones closer to 5000 horses.
Typical arrangement in a disel loco, if I recall right, is a 16-20 cylinder supercharged diesel engine spinning a generator, which feeds nose-suspended traction motors. Do the newer engines have more cylinders, or just more energy delivered from each cylinder?
Since the P-42 has 4,200 hp I though maybe the F59 has 5,900 hp because of the name given to it.
The GE and EMD numbering systems are different, learn that.
In the EMD system, an X9 or X8 is a de-powered version of the next highest model. A GP-38 and 39 were cheaper versions of the GP-40. A GP-49 was a cheaper GP-50 and a GP-59 was a cheaper GP-60. A normal GP-60 is rated at 3800 hp. A GP/F-59 is rated at 3000. It has the same engine model as the GP-60, but probably has fewer cylinders and less/no turbocharging. I assume that the F-59 uses a turbocharged V-12 645 engine with an independant HEP unit.
Typical arrangement in a diesel loco, if I recall right, is a 16-20 cylinder supercharged diesel engine spinning a generator,
SD40 = 16 cyl
SD45 = 20 cyl
SD70 = 16 cyl, 4,300hp
SD80 = 20 cyl, 5,000hp
SD90 = some weird ass high horsepower engine, probably 16 cyl, 6,000hp
EMD's offering for EWS class 66/67 = 12 cyl, 3,300hp (European version of the SD-70 with less horsepower and less cylinders)
GE AC4400 = 4,400hp
Nowadays generators have been replaced with alternator and rectifier sets.
Highest hp on electric locos is something like 13,500hp per loco -- in fact we should really calculate this on a per-axle basis, since in electric engines the limiting factor is not the power available per locomotive but power deliverable per axle (due to traction motor physical size and cooling issues). Thus on the Eurostar train (6 powered axles per loco -- four on the power car, two on the first coach) the power delivered per axle is 2,250hp per axle.
If EMD ever made a GP-90 (theoretically not impossible, espceially for passenger service, but you would have huge adhesion problems), then the power per axle on that loco would be 1,500hp -- still far behind the power available on electric locos. The reason is probably because of weight restrictions, diesel prime movers being heavier than electrical transformers.
I think the reason diesel power output has lagged behind electric is because there is no need for diesel locos with larger power -- technically, there is little reason why two diesels couldn't be mounted on the same frame (like the DD40's for UP) to generate more power. But why bother?
AEM7
13,500 hp?????????????????????????????????? I don't think a electric Loco has that much power, unless it's 2 Electric's powering a Trainset, like the Acela Express or a Doublehead with 2 Electrics.
It's entirely possible. The locos which replaced the GG-1's delivered 7,000 horses - and that was what, 30 years ago? Progress has been made since then.
13,500 hp is easy when you have six axles to play with.
The limit to electric train power is really the size of traction motors that can be physically mounted onto an axle. If you calculate the power per axle, on the HHP-8 it's 2,000hp per axle. On the Eurostar it's only 2,250hp per axle. And anyway ten years ago the GEC class 91 (in Britain) delivered some 6,800hp in a Bo-Bo configuration and that is already 1,700hp per axle which maxed out the traction motor technology at the time. And the class 91 used a DC motor. With AC motors, they are even more compact so 2,000hp per axle is easy.
AEM7
The Swiss have a LOK 2000 variant with over 9000 HP in a 4 axle configuration. This is continuous. The Germans had 4 axle electrics with 12,000 HP one hour ratings in the 60's. The limiting factor is motor cooling on AC units. I suspect you'll see eventual liquid cooling and the 10,000 HP barrier for a 4 axle loco will be broken. The majority of modern passenger locos are 4 axle these days. IIRC, above a certain speed, HP becomes more important than raw TE, thus it actually makes sense to make an 8000 HP, 80 ton locomotive. This allows a single to pull 8 or 10 cars at 140mph, even up 1 or 2% grades.
Real high speed trains in Europe can go up and down 4% grades without any trouble. i highly doubt the low power:weight ration of the Acela would allow that, and in any case, the high weight (and a number of other dumb design decisions) pushes the critical speed of the trucks too low anyway.
I've read that the FRA *still* won't allow 150mph operation through curves, and may never allow it, as the truck hunting issue has proven to be unsolveable.
UP's Super "big boy" diesels (6600 horses from two engines per loco) were not successful in the long run - too many maintenance headaches, as I recall.
Those big UP diesels are in sort of a locomotive power limbo. Yes they had 6600 hp, but they had two prime movers and were basically two GP-40's welded together. The Baldwin Centipede also had 6000hp, but again it was two units in a married pair each unit of the pair having 2 engines. The SD-90 and GE AC6000 are the first truely single unit 6000hp diesels. The others just save on MU jumpers.
Super Big Boy? First time anyone's ever called them that!
The EMD DDA40X was a 6600 horsepower unit...the "X" in the designation indicated that they had a lot of experimental systems on them, including the beefed up individual engines.
One of the big reasons the UP has NOT continued this sort of trend is that if one of the engines goes down, there are basically two engines down -- twice the maintenance headaches, etc.
Aka the Centennials, built in 1969, one hundred years after the golden spike at Promontory Utah, and also numbered starting with 69.
They were basically two GP40s, with a pair of 3300 hp 16-645E3A engines, eight axles, and all the maintinence headaches that accompany such a locomotive, which others have mentioned.
Here's a photo of DDA40X #6930that we saw at the Illinois Railroad Museum last year on our SubTalk Chicago field trip.
Beautiful add for a crap product. I love ads that masquerade as windows error messages.
-Hank
That DD40X is old and rusty, Will they be making more Engines like the DD40, or is that it??
Sounds right. The highest hp offered on a diesel loco is still substantially less than an electric loco (for obvious reasons).
Not that much less. The most powerful single unit diesel is 6000hp, the most powerful US electric is 8000hp. The most powerful Steam loco was also 8000hp back in 1944 just for a sence of progress.
Do the newer engines have more cylinders, or just more energy delivered from each cylinder?
The main differance is that the newer engines have a larger per-cylinder displcement. The original EMD engines had 567 cu in, the mid model is 645 displacement and the new ones have 710 displacement. The engine cyninder number typially varies from 12 to 20 with 16 being normal. 20 cyl are used when EMD can't find any other way to up the power and 12 cyl are used for "economic" installations.
Very informative post, thank you.
A previous poster indicated that the highest electric loco horsepower was actually 13,000.
I was referring to US electrics.
Yeah, but tha'ts prime mover rating. The actualy electical rating is about 70 - 85% of that, depending on generator/ transmission efficiency.
In any case, an electric can double it's HP (actually, KW) rating for a brief period (one hour), whereas a diesel is limited to X% of Y hp of the prime mover.
Plus, you have to figure in HEP load, which is around .5 to 1 MW. Unless you have a sepperate HEP generator.
IIRC, the F-59 is a DC dinosaur anyway. Every passenger operator in the industrialized world except Amtrak is ordering AC traction now...
AC traction is useless in high speed operations. The latest Virgin EMUs and DEMUs all have DC traction motors for operation up to 140mph.
I have read it was american practice to have the rated hp of a unit be the AT RAIL rate. The typical transmission losses are %10.
IIRC, American practice is to rate the prime mover.
The F59 locomotives have a Detroit Diesel 149 series engine in the back for HEP generator propulsion. The funny looking scoop on the rear end of the loco is the air intake for the HEP engine.
GO Transit changed some, if not all, of their F59 HEP engines to Cummins in recent years. Not sure of the reasoning, read it somewhere.
The F59PHI's also have the Detroit Diesel 149 engine back there (at least out here on Metrolink).
Dependent upon the version of the engine, the F59PH or the F59PHI, the answer varies. The F59PH, used by Los Angeles' Metrolink and Toronto's GO Transit uses the 12-710G3, while the the F59PHI, used by Amtrak, Sounder, and a myriad of other commuter agencies uses the 12-710G3C. The -710G3C is improved over the F59PH's engine through better fuel efficiency, and better emisions, but loses 300 horsepower, developing 3000hp even to the F59PH's 3300 hp.
EMD stopped numbering their diesels back in the late 50s after the U25B vs GP30 competition. The 2300hp GP30 sounded better than the 2500hp U25B, prior to that, EMD had experimented with a Horsepower-Number relationship, hence the GP18, GP20, and SD24/26 (yeah their ATSF rebuilds, so what?). Today, a SD/GP#8 means that the engine uses a normally asperated (no turbocharger) 16 cylinder engine, thus the GP/SD38, using the 16-645E, and developing 2000 hp. The GP/SD40 uses the turbocharged 16-645E3, and makes 3000hp, the SD45 has a 20-645E3, and gets 3600 hp out of it's powerplant. A SD/GP#9 means that that locomotive uses an engine with a lessened number of cylinders, thus the GP/SD39, with a turbocharged 12-645E3, making 2300 hp. The GP60s use a newer engine, the 710, and being a F#9 engine, the F59 engine uses the 12 cylinder version of that engine. The GP/SD60 uses the 16-710G3, and the SD80MAC uses the 20-710G3BES.
I suppose now I should explain the engine desginations. Its actually quite simple, the first number is clearly the number of cylinders be it 8,12,16, or 20. The next number is the total displacement of the engine in cubic inches, it started for EMD at 567 in the E3 (yeah there were engines before that, but for the purposes of saving some simplicty, I'm ignoring them) through the GP35, then it progressed to the 645 cubic inch line with the GP/SD40 in 1965, which lasted in the guise of the SD/GP50 into the eighties, when it was replaced by the current 710 cubic inch powerplant, found in the GP/SD60, SD70, F59PH(I), and the SD80MAC. The next coupla letters and numbers are modifications and various changes made to the engine in the course of trying to perfect it. The SD80MAC's 20-710G3BES stands for twenty cylinder [20], 710 cu. in. displacement [-710], crankcase design [G], version[3], improved fuel efficiency[E], and split cooling [S]
A great site for EMD two Stroke Info:SDRM History of EMD Diesel Engines
I couldn't get my F59PHI link to work above, so here it is now
A good site for an explanation of EMD's diesels and pics of NCdot's F59PHIs: http://www.howstuffworks.com/diesel-locomotive.htm
The GP60's used the 645 engine. The 710 premiered with the 70 series. That was the whole big deal.
Metrolink (in southern California) claims their F59's and F59PHI's are 3200 horsepower
As of now, there is a Slant R40 on 4 track in Fresh Pond Yard to be used for AM rush hour service this Monday. The Dispatcher was unable to tell me the intervals that the Slant 40 was to make though.
This might be the last ever chance to see a slant 40 on the M line.
What happened? FPY or ENY didn't have enough Mod's or 42's for Mary service?
Has anyone heard on when construction will begin on the extension of the MBTA's Lowell Line to Nashau, NH & what year will service begin to Nashau, NH.
Here's some info
http://www.nashuarpc.org/transportation/pass_rail.htm
http://www.fta.dot.gov/library/policy/ns/ns2003/penasua.html
What I heard is that it's well under way, and although there is not yet a target start-date (if partly because we are going to have to deal with Guilford), everything is in place for this scheme to happen -- eventually.
AEM7
Another reason why MBTA doesn't really care about the service:
MBTA has set a precedent with its service to the State of Rhode Island whereby capital equipment has been credited toward operating services. It is NHDOT's goal to explore this financing mechanism in order to prevent the need for annual ongoing operating subsidies.
Looks like those people at NHDOT are doing what suburbanites are very, very good at doing. They want service and they want the city to pay for it. They think they can get away with buying some equipment and let MBTA mop up the operating losses...
Well, I have to admit that I don't know too much about what goes on inside MBTA, but I just don't like it when people who are proposing the service are talking about "prevent the need for subsidies". Wouldn't you be suspicious if you were running MBTA?
AEM-7
It may be a lease arrangement they're talking about. How would it work? New Hampshire leases locomotives to MBTA for the service for free and the annual lease value is credited as if it were a subsidy.
Another way to "subsidize" without taking money out of NH coffers is to set up a new fare zone in NH which has disproportionately higher fares for rides crossing the state line.
It may be a lease arrangement they're talking about. How would it work? New Hampshire leases locomotives to MBTA for the service for free and the annual lease value is credited as if it were a subsidy.
Again I don't know much about the internal financial workings of the MBTA, but I do know that MBTA do not own the equipment they run. As you know MBTA has a heavy debt burden from starting the commuter rail service from scratch in the early 1990s. This meant that the equipment had been put up as collateral against its borrowings. If you look at some of the locos they will say "ownership subject to agreement" or something like that. I think Fleet Bank owns some of the MBTA equipment. The contract is really complicated, something along the lines of the fact that MBTA is responsible for all maintenance and accident risk etc as if it owned the equipment, but if MBTA should default on its borrowing then the banks can reclaim the equipment. I'm not 100% sure of the details.
They can't do that. They can't use Federal new starts money to buy equipment, give them to the MBTA, and then pretend that's operating subsidy. D'you see what's happened? They have in effect used Federal capital money for subsidizing operations! The fact is, even if NHDOT bought the equipment, it should have bought the equipment anyway, because MBTA isn't going to buy equipment to serve NH... MBTA's role is simply to operate the equipment on behalf of NHDOT; MBTA does not need to even OWN the extra cars that are used to serve NH. It would be like the Metro-North/NJTransit Port Jervis Line. Metro-North owns some of the cars, and still has to pay NJTransit for operating losses.
Another way to "subsidize" without taking money out of NH coffers is to set up a new fare zone in NH which has disproportionately higher fares for rides crossing the state line.
That wouldn't work, for two reasons:
* People can drive across the state line for free, thus people would come and park at Haverhill rendering the extension useless.
* Commuter Rail is a highly elastic market, meaning that if the fares were up, then less people would ride it, to the extent that revenue would go down. So pricing up in fact makes the financial case for the NH extension even less attractive.
Basically, I think NH has to cough up the dough, or they will get no service. MBTA is being fairly nice about it by not insisting those who board at Haverhill to show MA residency. They should really do that if they want to ensure those who don't pay for the service don't get to use it.
AEM7
Speaking of Nashau (or is it Nashua?), aren't there plans to build a new highway around most of Nashua (or is it Nashau?), connecting to the F. E. Everitt Turnpike (or whatever it's called) at both ends? How is that progressing?
- Lyle Goldman
Does anyone know on when construction will begin on the restoration of passenger rail service along the New York Susquhanna & Western being propose by NJ Transit & what year will passenger rail service begin along this line.
Check the following websites, I doubt anyone here can answer your questions. The NJ Transit site may have a public information person who can follow up on your infromation requests.
NJ Transit - http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/
The following NJ newspapers cover transit issues -
http://www.injersey.com/hnt/
http://www.nj.com/news/
http://www.bergen.com/
NJTransit's web site is now www.njtransit.com, so much easier to remember (though I still sometimes use state.nj.us).
2050 i would say
Ask on the following bulletin boards:
http://www.nj.com/forums/transit/
http://www.railroad.net/forums/ and look for the "NJ Transit" link
http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=NYSW
Another winding DC Metro thread by me... possibly. Anyways, I recall one of you mentioning the "crossing of the lines", referring to the original route plans for the Blue and Yellow lines, as it appeared on the maps. I just so happen to own a copy of the Metro 25th anniversary book, "Metro at 25" (which was on sale in Philly, but "Trains, Trolleys and Transit" (a similar book detailing Philadelphia area rail transportation) can't be found in Washington? Why?) Anyways (again), there is an old map of the planned system in that book, this includes a picture of the crossing (This map was Metro's first, before Gallery Place and Dupont Circle opened), with quite a few... interesting differences (most of which were station names, but a couple really stand out)
For one thing, why didn't Metro ever go with the original Blue/Yellow routing plan? I recall (again, from previous threads), that the Rohr cars only had Blue line Huntington designations (for the roll signs), and the Breda's computerized signs had to be reprogrammed to change from Blue to Yellow for Huntington. If the planned Blue line was Addison Road to Huntington, just how did it end up getting Franconia-Springfield?
Franconia and Springfield were planned as two separate stations. Was this to indicate two areas they'd been considering for either station, or was there supposed to be a Franconia station and a Springfield station? And how would they have trains for both destinations if the Yellow line was to be shared with both the Green and the Blue lines?
Southern Avenue Station. Apparently, this was not a part of the original planned system, as it's not on the map.
Glebe Road Station on the Orange line. What became of this?
Chillium Station and Tenley Circle. I forget whether these were just tenative names or if line realignment moved the rail too far away from the area the station was to be named for. Can anyone confirm this?
The original map has little structural difference from the current Metrorail system map. However, one interesting point, is that the Yellow/Green line segment from Shaw(-Howard Univ) to Fort Totten doesn't have any curves; it appears as though the line were meant to run straight up Georgia Avenue, and head east towards Fort Totten. Strange. Also, I'm well aware of the fact that the Yellow and Green lines were both supposed to serve Greenbelt, but that Yellow didn't quite make it
And just how did the good people at Metro know they'd be able to have parking lots at so many stations? In fact, they have no parking icon at Silver Spring on the original map, but it appears on the current map.
Lastly, the Red line is designated as Glenmont/Rockville, even though 1) Quite a few maps made between then and now only included the line's active segments (i.e. Green Line - U Street-Cardozo to Anacostia, Fort Totten to Greenbelt, circa 1993), and 2) Shady Grove Station is clearly seen on that map.
Another winding DC Metro thread by me... possibly. Anyways, I recall one of you mentioning the "crossing of the lines",
referring to the original route plans for the Blue and Yellow lines, as it appeared on the maps. I just so happen to own a copy of
the Metro 25th anniversary book, "Metro at 25" (which was on sale in Philly, but "Trains, Trolleys and Transit" (a similar book
detailing Philadelphia area rail transportation) can't be found in Washington? Why?) Anyways (again), there is an old map of the
planned system in that book, this includes a picture of the crossing (This map was Metro's first, before Gallery Place and
Dupont Circle opened), with quite a few... interesting differences (most of which were station names, but a couple really stand
out)
For one thing, why didn't Metro ever go with the original Blue/Yellow routing plan? I recall (again, from previous threads), that
the Rohr cars only had Blue line Huntington designations (for the roll signs), and the Breda's computerized signs had to be
reprogrammed to change from Blue to Yellow for Huntington. If the planned Blue line was Addison Road to Huntington, just
how did it end up getting Franconia-Springfield?
When the Yellow Line to Huntington was almost ready, they were short cars and figured out by running the Yellow Line to Huntington, they would need fewer cars. The Franconia-Springfield line was always marked in Yellow until Van Dorn opened with a note on some maps saying the Yellow to Huntington was temporary. When Van Dorn opened, they made the whole branch blue and the note was eliminated.
Franconia and Springfield were planned as two separate stations. Was this to indicate two areas they'd been considering for
either station, or was there supposed to be a Franconia station and a Springfield station? And how would they have trains for
both destinations if the Yellow line was to be shared with both the Green and the Blue lines?
I assume it was something like the Rockaways where every other train would serve Franconia, the others go to Springfield. The stations were consolidated to save money. What do you mean by the trains would have both destinations? The sign on the train would say either FRANCONIA or SPRINGFIELD and the platforms could say To Franconia or Springfield. The consolidation was rather early on, I can look at my literature and figure out when it was
Southern Avenue Station. Apparently, this was not a part of the original planned system, as it's not on the map.
Neither was Shady Grove (see below)...
Glebe Road Station on the Orange line. What became of this?
An eliminated station. Same thing happened to Pooks Hill Road, a station which if it was built, would have ruined the best ride in the system.
Chillium Station and Tenley Circle. I forget whether these were just tenative names or if line realignment moved the rail too far
away from the area the station was to be named for. Can anyone confirm this?
Renamed stations. Chillium is now West Hyattsville, Tenley Circle is now Tenleytown.
The original map has little structural difference from the current Metrorail system map. However, one interesting point, is that the
Yellow/Green line segment from Shaw(-Howard Univ) to Fort Totten doesn't have any curves; it appears as though the line
were meant to run straight up Georgia Avenue, and head east towards Fort Totten. Strange. Also, I'm well aware of the fact
that the Yellow and Green lines were both supposed to serve Greenbelt, but that Yellow didn't quite make it.
Have you ever looked at the rest of this site? I don't know the proposed alignment offhand but it is on the line by line in the WMATA section. The MetroRail maps are not to scale, so just because the line is shown as straight doesn't mean that it is. The Yellow Line to Greenbelt was eliminated due to a car shortage (Metro had alot of these and still does).
And just how did the good people at Metro know they'd be able to have parking lots at so many stations? In fact, they have no
parking icon at Silver Spring on the original map, but it appears on the current map.
I'll have to go look at this map. When the stations were planned, it was known if they would have parking lots or not.
Lastly, the Red line is designated as Glenmont/Rockville, even though 1) Quite a few maps made between then and now only
included the line's active segments (i.e. Green Line - U Street-Cardozo to Anacostia, Fort Totten to Greenbelt, circa 1993),
and 2) Shady Grove Station is clearly seen on that map.
Are you sure you see Shady Grove? Originally, the line was to end at Rockville. I would count the dots and make sure.
Hope this helped!
March 29th, 1976. That's the date on the map. Shady Grove station is indeed on this map, but only as a "Future Station". According to the book, the Metro Board approved Shady Grove station in July of 1975, so I imagine it'd be a part of the first map for the first operating day, especially being a part of the first line.
Counted the dots. They all add up. Maybe they just forgot to chane the line designations in the legend, or perhaps they consider Shady Grove station to be a part of Rockville, and just left it at that.
As far as "how would they have trains for both destinations?" goes, I mean that in the same way someone else might ask, "how are they going to have Orange trains going both to Dulles Airport and Vienna/Fairfax?". I mean that as in, would they split the frequency (as in, there would be less trains to Vienna, because half of the original Vienna trains would become Dulles trains), or double it (as in, there would be twice as many trains between New Carrollton and EFC or WFC (depending on where they branch off), due to the Dulles trains running with about the same frequency as the Vienna trains). And, if the answer would be that they'd double the frequency, how would they avoid tying up the blue trains?
Metro has a car shortage problem? I'd never have thought it.
Also, I think I know why you asked about "counting the dots" There is also a circa 1968 map of the Adopted regional System, which doesn't include Shady Grove. However, there are several future extensions on the map, one of which goes northwest from Rockville. The others go to Bowie, Largo, Brandywine, Fairfield, Burke, Lincolnia, and there are a few that don't have the end station on the map, one goes northeast from Greenbelt (Presumably to Laurel), another is likely the Dulles extension (which is shown to diverge before West Falls Church), a third goes west from Vienna (likely to Centreville). None of the other proposals tht are said to have been floated (The Beltway line, extensions to Lorton and Woodbridge, or the Georgetown line) appear on the 1968 map.
There also looks to be a dot for a station in the vicinity of the Blue/Orange line junction east of Stadium-Armory, but what it would be called, or why they either bothered proposing it or never built it is beyond me.
March 29th, 1976. That's the date on the map. Shady Grove station is indeed on this map, but only as a "Future Station".
According to the book, the Metro Board approved Shady Grove station in July of 1975, so I imagine it'd be a part of the first
map for the first operating day, especially being a part of the first line.
Counted the dots. They all add up. Maybe they just forgot to chane the line designations in the legend, or perhaps they consider
Shady Grove station to be a part of Rockville, and just left it at that.
The people at Metro are human. Yes, they have real people at the Jackson Graham Building, even though most of the system is related to computers in some way. This is in the Story of Metro? If you give me a page number, I'll go take a look at my copy, I don't really want to skim every page to find it.
As far as "how would they have trains for both destinations?" goes, I mean that in the same way someone else might ask, "how
are they going to have Orange trains going both to Dulles Airport and Vienna/Fairfax?". I mean that as in, would they split the
frequency (as in, there would be less trains to Vienna, because half of the original Vienna trains would become Dulles trains), or
double it (as in, there would be twice as many trains between New Carrollton and EFC or WFC (depending on where they
branch off), due to the Dulles trains running with about the same frequency as the Vienna trains). And, if the answer would be
that they'd double the frequency, how would they avoid tying up the blue trains?
There are two options. One is to run things at the current frequencies, with half as many trains to Vienna. The other half would go to Dulles. The more likely is to run two Orange Line trains for every Blue Line train. I believe a headway of 2 minutes could be maintained on the downtown segment between the combined services. This will be determined when (if) the line to Dulles is built.
Metro has a car shortage problem? I'd never have thought it.
Um, where have you been? There were articles almost daily in the Washington Post after the Branch Avenue extension about crowding on that branch, especially at Waterfront. They have moved more cars around and have more 6 car trains on the Green Line but even so, they are short cars. The CAF cars should have all arrived by now, but due to various problems, only about 30 cars are in service on a given day. Metro extended the contract for the cars so they are due by the end of April, if I recall correctly. If you read The Story of Metro, it refers to car shortages many times they start to talk about an extension of service. The March 1976 opening was not the original opening date, again due to a car shortage. The Washington Post series about Metro for the 25th Anniversary also talked about this quite extensively. So, in short, yes, they have a car shortage
Also, I think I know why you asked about "counting the dots" There is also a circa 1968 map of the Adopted regional System,
which doesn't include Shady Grove. However, there are several future extensions on the map, one of which goes northwest
from Rockville. The others go to Bowie, Largo, Brandywine, Fairfield, Burke, Lincolnia, and there are a few that don't have the
end station on the map, one goes northeast from Greenbelt (Presumably to Laurel), another is likely the Dulles extension (which
is shown to diverge before West Falls Church), a third goes west from Vienna (likely to Centreville). None of the other
proposals tht are said to have been floated (The Beltway line, extensions to Lorton and Woodbridge, or the Georgetown line)
appear on the 1968 map.
That was one of their proposals, so who knows. They made lots of changes to the original plans.
There also looks to be a dot for a station in the vicinity of the Blue/Orange line junction east of Stadium-Armory, but what it
would be called, or why they either bothered proposing it or never built it is beyond me.
I'll have to go look at the map, I don't recall that one
This isn't "The Story of Metro", this is "Metro at 25". They published this book to celebrate 25 years of Metrorail service as of March 2001. I don't know when it first became available, but when I saw it at the Transit Museum and Store in Philly, I bought it immediately. It has the first "service map" (1976, Dupont Circle and Gallery Place, as well as the entire Blue, Orange, Yellow, and Green Lines were not yet operational), a map of some of their proposals (this includes the mysterious station near the Blue/Orange junction, as well as referring to one satation as "Weapons Plant" (I think, by location, it's either Eastern Market or Potomac Avenue, possibly even Stadium-Armory)), and it has artwork depicting the New York Avenue, Summerfield, and Largo Town Center stations, as well as a planed transportation center at Silver Spring. Of course, it also has the system map effective 1/13/2001
Of interesting note: the map showing all the proposals has the Dulles spur diverge just east of West Falls Church. Another map gives greater detail on the route of the spur; it would connect right into the Dulles Access and Toll Road east of West Falls Church, possibly not have a station in Tyson's Corner, and would exit the median of the toll road to service the Dulles International Airport before re-joining the highway to continue west (wherever it would end is not shown on the map. The line, IMO, would be better off diverging at WFC, and following the yard access trackage to reach Route 7 before accessing the Dulles highway.
Also, at the time this was published, the Commonwealth of Virginia was preparing an environmental impact statement on highway and transit improvements to I-66. This, of course, was for a possible Orange Line extension to Centreville. I think Metro's serious about that.
You seem to know a lot about DC Metro. Do you know anything about them having weekday or weekend express trains. They mentioned it in a Ride Guide released sometime between the Green Line opening between Greenbelt and Fort Totten and the opening of Franconia-Springfield. Well, when I went to check out Franconia-Springfield, they had not a single express train. Did they ever have express trains on the Metro, and if so, on which lines? And how did they differ from local trains (i.e. what stations did they service, and which were skipped)?
This isn't "The Story of Metro", this is "Metro at 25". They published this book to celebrate 25 years of Metrorail service as of
March 2001. I don't know when it first became available, but when I saw it at the Transit Museum and Store in Philly, I bought
it immediately. It has the first "service map" (1976, Dupont Circle and Gallery Place, as well as the entire Blue, Orange, Yellow,
and Green Lines were not yet operational), a map of some of their proposals (this includes the mysterious station near the
Blue/Orange junction, as well as referring to one satation as "Weapons Plant" (I think, by location, it's either Eastern Market or
Potomac Avenue, possibly even Stadium-Armory)), and it has artwork depicting the New York Avenue, Summerfield, and
Largo Town Center stations, as well as a planed transportation center at Silver Spring. Of course, it also has the system map
effective 1/13/2001
I now remember you were using this book. I have it and just need to find it...
Of interesting note: the map showing all the proposals has the Dulles spur diverge just east of West Falls Church. Another map
gives greater detail on the route of the spur; it would connect right into the Dulles Access and Toll Road east of West Falls
Church, possibly not have a station in Tyson's Corner, and would exit the median of the toll road to service the Dulles
International Airport before re-joining the highway to continue west (wherever it would end is not shown on the map. The line,
IMO, would be better off diverging at WFC, and following the yard access trackage to reach Route 7 before accessing the
Dulles highway.
I am sure they will figure out an alignment sooner or later. The important thing is that there be a line from downtown to Dulles. I am somewhat less concerned about Tysons and even less concerned about West Falls Church.
Also, at the time this was published, the Commonwealth of Virginia was preparing an environmental impact statement on
highway and transit improvements to I-66. This, of course, was for a possible Orange Line extension to Centreville. I think
Metro's serious about that.
If you think Metro is serious about that now, then how serious are they about the Dulles Line? The line to Centerville has been proposed for ages. The only problem is that when VDOT added lanes to I-66, they put them in the median, which had been "reserved" for Metro. I hope they build the Dulles Line before they go to Centerville.
You seem to know a lot about DC Metro.
Thanks :-)
Do you know anything about them having weekday or weekend express trains. They
mentioned it in a Ride Guide released sometime between the Green Line opening between Greenbelt and Fort Totten and the
opening of Franconia-Springfield. Well, when I went to check out Franconia-Springfield, they had not a single express train.
Did they ever have express trains on the Metro, and if so, on which lines? And how did they differ from local trains (i.e. what
stations did they service, and which were skipped)?
The Ride Guide is the point to point itinerary planner. You probably are thinking of the specials for MCI Center events. When the MCI Center opened, they ran three trains from Gallery Place to Greenbelt via the Red Line and from Gallery Place to Franconia-Springfield via the Yellow Line. They made all local stops, so if you were going to Rhode Island Avenue and you got down to the platform and the green line was sitting there, you could take it. It did not go non-stop from Gallery Place to West Hyattsville. The Green Line Special was discontinued once the Inner Green Line opened. The Blue Line Special still runs.
Express trains are created whenever there is a large gap between trains and there is a second train right behind the train that is going to skip a station. I have only seen trains skip one station at a time. Operators make an announcement like this one (arriving at Bethesda) "Attention customers, due to a scheduling adjustment, the next station for this train will be Grosvenor. If you wish to go to the Medical Center station, get off at Bethesda and wait for the next train, one minute behind this one. Once again, the next stop for this train will be Grosvenor." I've seen trains skip Tenleytown, Woodley Park, and Grosvenor (really stupid, you can't have a train skip Grosvenor since there will almost always be people who got off the short turn expecting the next train to be going to Shady Grove. 10 minutes later, to see the train skip the station, and then the next train is a Grosvenor short turn, so you have to wait yet again, and it is the middle of January...)
Hope this helped...
When I was trekking up to a client in Rockpile every day for a few months, at least twice a week I would be on a train that ran "express" from either Van Ness or Tenleytown to Grosvenor for a scheduling adjustment. It sure did honk off a lot of folks. It always was on trains I boarded at Dupont between 8:15 and 8:30AM.
What probably happened was your train got delayed en route and in order to make up time so it could relay back to Silver Spring, it would go express. It is rather rare though. There are no scheduled express runs unless you want to count all the trains that skip Arlington Cemetery after it closes at 7 or 10 PM.
I found the guide I was talking about. Dated: 12/1993. And, I was wrong, their Express service wasn't for weekends, only for Saturdays. Again, that's December, 1993. Still, what did they mean by "Saturday Express"?
And as far as their parking telepathy, they expected to have a parking lot or garage at Alabama Avenue station. Well, I'm sure you know which sation Alabama Avenue became, and what it doesn't have. Strangely, they didn't expect to have parking at Silver Spring.
Did the campus of Univ. of DC close? (The one by Mt Vernon Sq-7th St/Convention Center (formerly Mt. Vernon Sq-UDC) station) I'm wondering why, in the renaming of the station, the UDC suffix wasn't included
Why no Mazza Gallerie suffix at Friendship Heights?
And if they ever did go south on the Blue line towards Prince William County, where would they end the line? And would they likely stop in Newington? As far as the terminal point, I'm guessing Woodbridge or Lorton, but I could be wrong.
I found the guide I was talking about. Dated: 12/1993. And, I was wrong, their Express service wasn't for weekends, only for
Saturdays. Again, that's December, 1993. Still, what did they mean by "Saturday Express"?
Can you scan the brochure? I want to see it.
And as far as their parking telepathy, they expected to have a parking lot or garage at Alabama Avenue station. Well, I'm sure
you know which sation Alabama Avenue became, and what it doesn't have. Strangely, they didn't expect to have parking at
Silver Spring.
Remember how many times they changed the Green Line alignment in Southeast? I am not surprised things changed. Same with Silver Spring. Even though it opened in 1978, that doesn't mean that things couldn't change. Besides, they don't have much parking there.
Did the campus of Univ. of DC close? (The one by Mt Vernon Sq-7th St/Convention Center (formerly Mt. Vernon Sq-UDC)
station) I'm wondering why, in the renaming of the station, the UDC suffix wasn't included
Yes, it did,
Why no Mazza Gallerie suffix at Friendship Heights?
If Mazza got a suffix (not like it deserves one), then the Pavilion, Chevy Chase Center, and every other shopping center around there would want one too. They recently considered renaming the station Friendship Heights/Chevy Chase or Chevy Chase/Friendship Heights. Some even wanted it changed completely to Chevy Chase!
And if they ever did go south on the Blue line towards Prince William County, where would they end the line? And would they
likely stop in Newington? As far as the terminal point, I'm guessing Woodbridge or Lorton, but I could be wrong.
I have no idea.
I'll try to scan the guide. I have it, but I have no idea how this scanner works.
Never mind what I'd asked about a Glebe Road station. After checking my maps again, I found out Ballston-MU is about three blocks east of Glebe Road. Their original plan for the Ballston station became Virgina Square-GMU (Though where Virginia Square is, I have no clue whatsoever)
I take it the new convention center will be named the 7th Street Convention Center. Otherwise, putting 7th Street in the Mt Vernon Square station suffix is mostly unnecessary. The entire run from Shaw to L'Enfant Plaza is under 7th Street
You're right. A stop on Pooks Hill Road would have ruined the Red Line. Not to mention it was too close to Grosvenor anyway.
HOV lanes in the reserved space for Metro. Could the Metro alignment not run under them, or diverge just off the highway so that it's parallel instead of within the highway (speaking of extending the Orange Line west)
And just how many times did they realign the Green Line in Southeast? Was this including Anacostia, or was that always set for where it is now? I'm asking because it seems like the alignment from L'Enfant to Navy Yard was practically written in stone, given that both Waterfront and Navy Yard appeared on the original map, and the map of their proposals, but the Southeast alignment went more east than south initially.
They've got Metrobus service to BWI now. I wonder if WMATA will ever start thinking rail. And if so, where to extend it from? Green Line or Orange Line? BWI can't be out of Metro's operating area.
I'll try to scan the guide. I have it, but I have no idea how this scanner works.
Thanks!
Never mind what I'd asked about a Glebe Road station. After checking my maps again, I found out Ballston-MU is about three
blocks east of Glebe Road. Their original plan for the Ballston station became Virgina Square-GMU (Though where Virginia
Square is, I have no clue whatsoever)
I take it the new convention center will be named the 7th Street Convention Center. Otherwise, putting 7th Street in the Mt
Vernon Square station suffix is mostly unnecessary. The entire run from Shaw to L'Enfant Plaza is under 7th Street
It is to make sure you don't go to the old convention center. I would have just left the signs as Mount Vernon Square-UDC until the convention center opened, or just covered up the UDC on the signs.
You're right. A stop on Pooks Hill Road would have ruined the Red Line. Not to mention it was too close to Grosvenor
anyway.
It isn't that close to Grosvenor actually. It would have lowered the ridership levels at Medical Center and Grosvenor though.
HOV lanes in the reserved space for Metro. Could the Metro alignment not run under them, or diverge just off the highway so
that it's parallel instead of within the highway (speaking of extending the Orange Line west)
Under? You would have to tear up the whole highway. I am not sure really
And just how many times did they realign the Green Line in Southeast? Was this including Anacostia, or was that always set for
where it is now? I'm asking because it seems like the alignment from L'Enfant to Navy Yard was practically written in stone,
given that both Waterfront and Navy Yard appeared on the original map, and the map of their proposals, but the Southeast
alignment went more east than south initially.
Quite a few, I can get back to you on this later
They've got Metrobus service to BWI now. I wonder if WMATA will ever start thinking rail. And if so, where to extend it
from? Green Line or Orange Line? BWI can't be out of Metro's operating area.
Probably Green. They need to get to Laurel first, though. I've taken the B30, it is a pretty nice ride.
Only possible problem is that BWI is in the MTA service area. The Light Rail already goes there so ATU Div 1300 is enconched.
Given that MTA & WMATA are trying had to cooperate, it might happen, but do not hold your breath.
While the second avenue languishes and a workable light rail commuter line for communities outside of Smallbany was blown up, while NYC Schools are down $1.5 Billion in funding while Joe Bruno built (and just opened) a Joseph Bruno Baseball Stadium (now open for AA baseball) another personal pet project for his own little territory is now underway.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyKey=84906&category=C
The proposed "subway" running over a bridge between the state office building in Albany to a site near the Joe Bruno Train Station in the city of Rensselaer (the trains once actually stopped in ALBANY, but now they stop in Brunoland instead) would be third-rail based and travel from shore to shore of the Hudson.
While I'm not opposed to this "subway" that few will ever use, but one would think there are some slightly MORE pressing issues in the current economic condition besides Joe Bruno continuing to feather his own nest. Like that commuter rail system between Albany and Saratoga perhaps? Second avenue subway maybe? School aid? Nah ...
Oooo, CyberTran! Sounds futuristic! Welcome to the 21st Century. Where's my collarless silver suit and flying car?
Heh. Meanwhile, you can't get DSK upstate, cable modems are unheard of and 33K baud is the rule rather than the exception. I work for a security software company that has to *OPERATE* on 33k dialups because that's as good as it gets. Our servers are in MINNESOTA ... such is the "high tech" legacy of Joe Bruno and that's why those of us in HIS district have to settle for AA baseball in his personal stadium and get our subsidies from New York City residents so we can eat. Way to go, Joe ... this is why "Cyber" isn't a complete laughing stock up here - upstaters are going "oooo, aaahhhh" over this train to *NOWHERE* ...
Oh hell, extend it to Troy, that way, it'll not only be a train to nowhere, it'll be a train to a depressed nowhere.
Offline stations? PRT in morgantown had that decades ago, IIRC.
Are cars on the extension going to be wooden and shaped like horses?
Actually, if it were to go to Troy, there'd be SOME purpose to it. People who take the BUS between Troy and Albany have to ride all the way west to Schenectady first, and then down to Albany for almost a two hour ride in each direction (by car, 15 minutes) ... wish the TU had printed the map for this boodoggle on their web page but it's truly a train to nowhere. City of Rensselaer is so ... well ... empty, it makes Newburgh look like Disneyland.
But of course, a REAL commuter rail that could have been built for that same amount of money that actually connected Albany, Schenectady, Saratoga and Troy (PLUS double-tracked Amtrak west of Albany) was straight out because it didn't go to toonerville. Geez. No WONDER we'll never see DSL out here - Joey's planning to introduce the TELEGRAPH in a few years. :)
The bus between Albany to Troy goes west to Schenectady before going to Troy? Who the heck's running CDTA? Why on Earth did they design that route like that? What were they thinking?
Not enough busses and not enough riders since the schedule has the bus running outside of normal work reporting hours on both ends. I think they have two busses for that run. The reality up here is that NOBODY uses mass transit because it was designed by our porcine politicos to FAIL. And thus it has. That makes Joey's choochoo even more outrageous than the baseball stadium that opens THIS coming Friday at 7pm (opening day of the "Joseph L Bruno Baseball Stadium") paid for with POST-WTC funds ...
But yeah, no joke - that's why the Oliver Northway is worse than the LIE in rush hour but folks would STILL rather drive. Out where I live, there's no bus at all. There used to be but it left here for Albany at 10AM and the return trip back (ONE round trip) was at 3PM ... not exactly practical for getting to my state gig, so I had to drive also. Such is life in Brunoland. In case you wonder why the boy yawns when he hears whining about another subway in a city that already HAS subways. Such is the mentality of our elected leaders ...
Hee Hah -- People Mover (Elevator Constructors' work) HEYPAUL
Heypaul chided in on Unca Harry's place ( http://www.nycrail.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/view.cgi?board=board1 with some pictures of its predecessor ... like I said, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if it actually WENT somewhere. But Rensselaer? To the Empire State Plaza? The ESP side is a decent idea, but a "rapid transit system" should go either north or west to where there are PEOPLE ... but I digress ... Joey also built a baseball stadium out in the trailer park too.
And it's not like he has to blow this huge wad to get re-elected, he's running UNOPPOSED fer krissakes ...
He should be burned at the stake!
Shouldn't that be Giuseppi Bruno?
I believe it's spelled "d i s g r a t i a t a" ... :)
A more pressing issue is the need for more subway lines in New York City such as the 2nd Avenue Line.
#3 West End Jeff
One would think ... although "real" commuter rail wouldn't be such a bad idea up here if it was solely "upstate money." :)
But alas, it's Brunodollars so it's only applicable to trailerpark county.
I wonder if he's friends with anyone in Congress who can help me get a personal spur off the Red Line for the 3 blocks from my building to the Dupont Circle station? Naturally, it would only be for myself and those I designate to use it.
3 blocks, eh? That'd be almost longer than THIS boondoggle. Our congressboy is John Sweeney but even a boondoggle like Joey's toy train wouldn't get paid for by federal pork. This one's coming out of the emergency aid to NYC in all likelihood, but it's state money he's spending on this ...
My destination Sunday was beautiful Bay Ridge, and with the Q running on the sea beach, I got there and back from mid Manhattan PFQ.
www.forgotten-ny.com
If anyone is interested I scanned a copy of an article that appeared in the 1928 BMT Monthly about the Coney Island Inspection shops - it has some pictures too!! I posted it to my site - Enjoy!
Coney Island Inspection Shops
Thanks for the treat! :)
Sounds as though it focuses on the BMT standards, although Triplexes are referred to briefly.
Nice! Thank you!
Since I haven't heard anything to the contrary, so I guess the strike on DOT bus lines in Queens will start by midnight.
I betcha the subways and LIRR will be packed come tomorrow morning as 115,000 people look for other ways to get around. There will probably numerous delays in relation to door holding. The 7 and E lines are probably going to get hit hard.
There is some indication in a NY1 article that the strike could continue for days. Usually the first day is the worst as far as confusion goes.
Good luck for those of you from Queens getting into Manhattan tomorrow! I'm glad I don't have to go in that direction!
What was the reason for the strike?
go to: http://www.ny1.com and scroll down the homepage.
I read the article but it doesn't give me a clear reason. Could you explain?
The reason is in the third paragraph. There was an issue in health care funding agreed to in the tentative agreeement which was reneged by the city when the fianl agreement was written. Check my postings over the past 24 hours on SubTalk and BusTalk.
Hey, why is it always the Queens buses that are on strike, and hardly ever the buses in the other boroughs?
- Lyle Goldman
Queens has more private bus companies and routes than the other 4 boros.
Stopped off at the Transit Museum gift shop,in Grand Central today. Looked for the latest subway map and found a new June 2002, also found a couple of March 2002's and some January 2002's. Map trifecta !!
Also checked out the new Elevated City display on going till November 6, 2002. This exhibit focuses on the older "els" especially the Manhattan "els". In the window is a model of a turn of the century elevated with cutaway station building.
There are some vintage station and elevated plate signs and a ticket chopper for good measure. Much more, but be there and see for yourself.'
Bill "Newkirk"
So now they've extended that exhibit until November, eh? Good - I'll get to see it after all.
I'll have to stop by there and pick up some maps. Thanks.
What is new or different in the June 2002 map?
I haven't seen the June maps yet, but the only possible changes I can think of would be the new station in New Haven (although they might not have gotten to even that yet).
By the way, I noticed that the map shows some ferry lines, but not all of them. (I'm looking at the December 2001 map; I can't find my March 2002 map.) For example, they show the Weehawken Ferries, the ferries from Battery Park, and most of the ferries that leave from East River Pier 11. However, it omits the Liberty State Park Ferry, the Delta Ferries, and even the ferries from East River Pier 11 to Bayonne and Keyport, NJ. How do they decide which ferries to include and which to omit?
- Lyle Goldman
New Haven-State Street is listed.
Many thanks to the staff and volunteers of the transit museum for the excellent "Elevated City" display at Grand Central Terminal. Those trained in museum displays have certainly mounted a better show than I could do. However, I wish they would let railfans inspect their show before opening, or they should change errors as they are reported. For example, they display a photo of BRT-lettered el car 1316 carrying front signs "Sands Street" and "Express." The museum tag says, "Sands Street Express," 1950's. Service to Sands Street el station ended in 1944! The photo appears to be a railfan trip with creative signs. Also, on Panel 10, a museum tag says "Demolition of 81 Street Station of 6th Avenue El," when the writing on the photo itself clearly states 9th Avenue (Columbus Avenue). Sixth and 81st would be in Central Park. Though I note these errors, I found the show enjoyable and well-presented.
The 6th Avenue el swung over to 9th Avenue at 53rd Street (much as the IND 6th Avenue line swings over to 8th Avenue at 53rd Street), where the two els merged. Was the el over Columbus Avenue considered only the 9th Avenue el or was it also considered part of the 6th Avenue el?
(By analogy, it would be just as accurate today to refer to the 81st Street station on the B as to refer to the 81st Street station on the C. Unless it's a weekend.)
For example, they display a photo of BRT-lettered el car 1316 carrying front signs "Sands Street" and "Express." The museum tag says, "Sands Street Express," 1950's. Service to Sands Street el station ended in 1944!
Is it this picture?
That's the last big (I think absolutely last) BU trip, c.1959. I was on that trip with my dad. The first car was rather inauthentically labeled BROOKLYN RAPID TRANSIT. That head car 1316 had another special thing about it--the panels were removed for the full length of the car to make it completely open. Only about six panels were removed after WWII or so.
The lcoation is on the Myrtle Avenue Line.
I was in the Transit Museum at Grand Central today and saw the exhibit. Very interesting. It must have been something to ride those wooden El cars.
They also had a film playing on a TV, I like the deep low sound of the motors on the El cars.
One thing is for sure (in my mind anyway) the 2nd ave El should not have been torn down until the 2nd ave subway was getting built.
They made the same mistake with Archer Ave, but at least the "subway replacement" actually got done!
They made the same mistake with Archer Ave, but at least the "subway replacement" actually got done!
That's true, at least there is some kind of replacement. However, the Archer subway was supposed to go much further than it actually does. I think it was supposed to wind up on the LIRR ROW and go further east, but i don't know exactly where.
The more southerly of the two branches from Archer Avenue was supposed to connect with the LIRR Atlantic Branch and run to Springfield Gardens. I watched this being built. I don't know if they ever outfitted the tunnel with track or electrical equipment. It comes pretty near what would have been its ramp to the LIRR.
One thing is for sure (in my mind anyway) the 2nd ave El should not have been torn down until the 2nd ave subway was getting built.
That is for certain, or at least the Third Ave el should have remained until the 2 Ave subway got built (It would be easier to build the 2 Ave subway, without having to worry about shoring up an el, like they had to do on 6th Ave.) I can guarantee there would be a 2 AVe subway today, if the el was required to stay until it was built. I'm sure they would have come up with the money some time during the past 50 years, as people would have wanted the el off the Avenue.
The Third Avenue el was in poor physical shape near the end. I don't know how much longer it could have continued with a major overhaul that was obviously not coming.
The Second Avenue el was in much better shape. Some people think it was intentional that this was torn down first.
I've heard that too that it may have been intentional that the 3nd Ave el was torn down first. Well I still say it would be easier and cheaper to have built a subway if they didn't have to worry about holding up an el. So then maybe the 2 Ave el should have remained until a subway was built, because it was in better shape, and maybe they should have built a 3 Ave or 1st Ave subway, will ghe 2 Ave el stayed rolling on 2 Ave. Then when the new subway was finished, they could tear it down.
http://www.forgottenoh.com/moonville.html
Apparently the ex-B&O line was active into the 1970s. I need to go out there and check it out myself...
I am really into old tunnels, and im gonna make the trek out to western PA to check out the abandoned PA turnpike tunnels. There is about 13 miles of abandoned highway, and 2 tunnels in that segment...one around 3,000 feet, and the other almost 7,000 feet!
Its a damn shame the closed the old Sidling Hill tunnel. Can you clue me onto the reason? It was the longest on the 'Pike. How does one gain access to those tunnels? Does it involve fence climbing?
They closed it because they were expanding the road in the 1960s. Originally, the Turnpike was 4 lanes, which bottlenecked into a 2-lane road in the tunnels-one lane in each direction. Traffic got heavier, and they decided to expand some of the existing tunnels into two 2-lane tunnels, so they just bored a parallel tunnel at some of them. It was decided to build an expressway over sideling hill instead of replace the tunnel.
Im not entirely sure how to gain access. I know that in the eastbound lane just east of the Sideling Hill travel plaza, there is a big clearing thats somewhat blocked off that is where the old road's west end was. The eastern end is closer to Breezewood, and you can get to it through back roads and stuff.
Its still turnpike property, and the western portion is used for occasional testing (i think this is where the rumble strip was invented). The tunnels aren't obstructed at all, but are very dark. Its definitely worth a 5 hour trip out there to check it out sometime.
They should have just made a dual roadway with a 2 lane bypass for one direction.
Actually, at Sideling Hill they went around the Mountain, not over it. They cut into the side of the mountain. A massive earth-moving project unthinkable in the 1960's. I remember the Turnpike in the 1950's, as we used it to go to Cleveland to see the family out there. Going though the tunnels was an adventure when you are under 6 and already crazy about streetcars and trains. The tunnels were dark, lit only by 100 watt light bulbs in the ceiling (actually the top of the tunnel arch). I almost expected a Pacific and Pullmans to pass our Pontiac. Funny how the mind works when you're 5.
They did both...They went into the hill but it also went over...there is a long upgrade dug into the hill, it cuts across the top, then there is a long downgrade cut into the hill.
Assuming that it is cheaper to build the tunnel, is there any reason why a highway might want to go over a mountain rather than through it?
Cheaper maintenance (tunnels are more expensive to maintain)?
But "it is cheaper to build the tunnel" is probably a bad assumption. Tunneling is almost always VERY expensive, and AFAIK that's been the case for a good long time.
Mvh Tim
Tunnels are VERY expensive to maintain compared to open highways, especially long tunnels that require ventilation and lighting systems. And there are safety issues associated with long tunnels as well - witness the disastrous accident in the Alpine tunnel last year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember hearing semis reverberating through those tunnels. I also recorded distances through each tunnel, keeping an eye on the odometer as we went through. We took the Turnpike when we moved to Jersey; however, I didn't get all the tunnel names. The only two I missed were Sideling Hill and Tuscarora Mountain. Finally in July of 1968, I got 'em all.
>>> im gonna make the trek out to western PA to check out the abandoned PA turnpike tunnels. <<<
I guess I have been out of town awhile, but what is this about abandoned PA Turnpike tunnels? The last time I drove the pike in ‘63, all the tunnels were in use. What has been abandoned, and what has replaced them?
Tom
Here's some information that might interest you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Let's try this again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A 404 error might interest me?? :-)
Perhaps you can answer this: was the Laurel Hill tunnel straight all the way through, or was there a sharp curve just inside the west portal? I can vaguely remember seeing a curve when we drove through it in 1962. The only other thing I can remember is that it was a relatively short tunnel. The map on the website shows a straight-line bore.
By the time we used the Turnpike again in 1965, Laurel Hill had been bypassed. The Ray's Hill and Sideling Hill tunnels were still in use in July of 1968. I also remember when the remaining tunnels were having second tubes bored out.
>>> Perhaps you can answer this: was the Laurel Hill tunnel straight all the way through, or was there a sharp curve just inside the west portal? <<<
I do not remember any sharp curves inside of any of the tunnels. Remember this was originally planned to be railroad ROW. No sharp curves, no steep grades, and no reason to complicate the boring of the tunnels by introducing curves.
Tom
I guess my memory is playing tricks on me. I was only 5 1/2 in July of '62 (has it really been 40 years?), but distinctly remember counting 7 tunnels and that Laurel Hill tunnel was fairly short (not as short as Ray's Hill, though). If there was no curve, I'm perplexed as to why I would remember seeing one.
I understood that all the stations (including IND) at Broadway-Eastern Parkway-East New York-Broadway Junction were supposed to be renamed "Broadway Junction" but the map on the MTA site shows the stations as "Broadway-Eastern Parkway" and "Broadway-East New York."
No Broadway Junction at all. Anyone know what the current station signs say? Or what the plan is?
Signs on the L platform call it Broadway Junction, of course.
I believe signs on the J/Z platform call it Broadway Junction, but I'm not entirely sure.
Modern signs on the A/C platform call it Broadway Junction. Original IND signs on the wall still call it BROADWAY - EAST NY. I've pointed out that the word JUNCTION would fit neatly below BROADWAY.
Many if not most C/R's are announcing the station as Broadway Junction.
Incidentally, the (now outdated) map label of Broadway-Eastern Parkway was never reflected in station signage -- the L was Broadway Junction and the J/Z was plain old Eastern Parkway. On my first J ride back in the early 90's, this almost caused me to miss my stop.
other than wall tile on the A line (which will be replaced) station signs refer to all 3 as :Broadway Junction"
The 3/02 map which is available at some booths shwos these names:
L--- Broadway Junction
J--- Broadway Junction (Eastern Parkway)
A--- Broadway Junction (East New York)
All official G.O. posters and announcements made by towers use the Broadway Junction name for all platforms. IE- Manhattan Bound J trains run express from Broadway Junction to Marcy.
Are you sure about that?
I have in my possession the latest bulletin from Stations and it says "Broadway Junction".
Now I want them to rename both A/C and S stations at Franklin/Fulton "Bedford Junction."
(Now I want them to rename both A/C and S stations at Franklin/Fulton "Bedford Junction.")
And I want them to name Prospect Park -- 15th St on the Culver "Petticoat Junction."
And I want them to name Prospect Park -- 15th St on the Culver "Petticoat Junction."
I'll bite. Because...?
(And I want them to name Prospect Park -- 15th St on the Culver "Petticoat Junction."
I'll bite. Because...?)
That's a joke, son. And unfortunately, it lacks a Part II.
Conjunction Junction, what's your function .....
--Mark
Vagina Junction, what's your function?
Taking in sperm and bringing out baby.
>>Now I want them to rename both A/C and S stations at Franklin/Fulton "Bedford Junction."<<
How about renaming Botanic Garden, Consumer's Park ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Indeed, reform it all the way.
Where would you rather live, "Avenue J" or "Manhattan Terrace"?
>>Where would you rather live, "Avenue J" or "Manhattan Terrace"?<<
Good point, let's move this discussion east.
Where would you rather live:
Farmingdale or Hardscrabble ?
Lynbrook or Pearsalls Corner ?
South Oyster Bay or Massapequa ?
Breslau or Lindenhurst ?
Norwood or Malverne ? and this one should interest you,
Seaside or Babylon ?
And the list goes on.
Bill "Newkirk"
Where would you rather live:
Farmingdale or Hardscrabble ?
Lynbrook or Pearsalls Corner ?
South Oyster Bay or Massapequa ?
Breslau or Lindenhurst ?
Norwood or Malverne ? (tossup) and this one should interest you,
Seaside or Babylon ? But I guess noone agreed with me. "Seaside" lasted as a name all of 18 months, I think, before they returned to "Babylon." Actually, though, Babylon isn't Seaside, it's "Bayside," and that's alreay taken.
Dare I ask?
Newkirk Avenue or South Midwood? :D
The LIRR example is place name vs. street name. The Transit example is street name vs. place name.
Both the street name and the place name provide information, so while they are standardizing announcements, I'd like to see both -- ie. "Newkirk Avenue, South Midwood." And "15th Street, Prospect Park/Windsor Terrace" rather than "Prospect Park 15th Street."
The LIRR example is place name vs. street name. The Transit example is street name vs. place name.
I believe all the LIRR examples are either former place names or, in the case of (at least Babylon) failed "new" names.
Both the street name and the place name provide information, so while they are standardizing announcements, I'd like to see both -- ie. "Newkirk Avenue, South Midwood." And "15th Street, Prospect Park/Windsor Terrace" rather than "Prospect Park 15th Street."
I agree they should do that. Using place names rather than streets enhances a sense of community, IMO. Problem is, there are only a few stations that have a unique community or clear historical name. Many southern division stations do, but what do you do elsewhere? Franklin/Fulton can clearly be Bedford, but what about Nostrand/Fulton? And what if different groups in the same community prefer different names? Or want to honor a local hero that not everyone agrees is a hero? Or some people want to honor people, while others strictly want community names?
>>The LIRR example is place name vs. street name<<
I guess that leaves out Merillon Avenue (Port Jeff Br), Centre Avenue (Long Beach Br), Glen Street (Oyster Bay Br) and Broadway (Port Wash Br) ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't forget Main Street on the Port Wash Branch.
>>Don't forget Main Street on the Port Wash Branch.<<
Yeah but, Flushing is also part of the station name.
Bill "Newkirk"
Or Nassau Blvd. on the Hempstead Line.
Well, there are exceptions to this rule:
- Brighton Beach
- Sheepshead Bay
- Prospect Park (Brighton Line)
- West Farms Square (if you use the R-142s at the identifying factor of E Tremont Ave)
- Broad Channel
- Botanic Garden
- Borough Hall (2/3/4/5)
- Woodlawn
- Pelham Bay Park
--Mark
Most of the stations you are correct but Brighton Beach is on Brighton Beach Avenue, Sheepshead Bay is on Sheepshead Bay Road, and wee all know why Prospect Park isn't Malbone Street anymore.
The station was never called Malbone Street.
If it was, then it would have been renamed with the street to Empire Boulevard.
>>Newkirk Avenue or South Midwood? :D<<
Uh......Paul, give me a couple of days to think about that one !
Bill "Newkirk"
Wantagh or Ridgewood
Ridgewood or East Williamsburg
Island Park or The Dykes
Island Park or The Dykes
Greenwich Village or the...
No, I won't go there.
How about Fishkill or Peekskill?
Here's one we have on my end of town in metro Denver: Jackass Hill Road. (No joke - it's really there)
How about Fishkill or Peekskill?
Huh? There really are two different places .... not two names for the same place ....
--Mark
I stand corrected. Sorry.
WAY OFF topic ... anybody remember when PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals) went off on this whole hoopla over "fishkill" forever Californicator foolish that "kill" means "moving waters" demanding that the village of "Fishkill" be renamed to "FISH-SAVE" in order to satify their cluelessness?
Those of us north of Nepperhan Avenue had a huge bellylaugh over all that. And STILL they insist. At least they couldn't anthropormorph a "peek" ... sheesh.
Lest anyone be offended, we've got THOUSANDS of critters (um, Bambi is a "rodent on stilts" up here and we're tired of watching bunnies making more fresh daily) ... PETA is WELCOME to back up a truck here and take home as many as'll fit on da truck ... moo. :)
Yeah, Selkirk ... I remember that ... it was the talk of the water cooler and big front page news in the Poughkeepsie Journal!
All sorts of jokes about PeeksSAVE, WalSAVE, The Fresh SAVEs Landfill on Staten Island, the Arthur SAVE, DeerSAVE Day Camp in Rockland County, the SAVE Van Kull also near Staten Island, etc etc .... we were laughing south of Nepperhan Avenue, too.
--Mark
What about CATSSAVE?
Nahh, that would have become Borschtville :)
--Mark
Well, up here among the critters, if PeTA wants to back up a truck, we'll be happy to load up all the weasels, skunks, bambirodents, foxes and coyotes they can stand if they just PROMISE to take them away. Hell, we'll even send them parcel post. :)
Levittown or Jerusalem?
Avenue "J". Isn't that the station at Branford???
Iswn't the station at Branford "AVENUE L"?
Peace,
ANDEE
It's Avenue "L" at Branford a.k.a. "Wall Street". Members know why!
:-)Sparky
"J","L", I guess I do need reading glasses!!!
Avenue M or South Greenfield?
Paul, I'd live in "Melrose Park"...;-D
Why "Bedford Junction"?
For the original Brighton Line Terminal/Junction with the LIRR two blocks south.
You know I'll vote for that! ;-D
Technically the land that WAS Bedford Station is still there (the used auto car lot on the corner)...
A birdie whispered to me, it going to be renamed DOUGLASS~LUCIANO
Junction. LOL :-(
:-) Sparky
Hey, Sparky, as I recall you were around when Consumer's Park was still making beer...LOL!!! ;-D
I'd vote for that sort of name any day, but I thought that technically "Bedford Junction" is not a junction anymore, nor has it been since the Fulton St El came down.
Well, they retain the name Broadway Junction, even though all the transfers (A/C underground, J/Z on one elevated level, L on another) are walking--there is still a physical connection east of the station between the J/Z and L.
Strictly speaking Franklin/Fulton is not Bedford Junction. Bedford Station or Bedford Terminal was two short blocks south at Atlantic west of Franklin, and (as BMTman pointed out) the land was never built on. But it's close enough for me. :-)
The old settlement of Bedford Corners was on the intersection of the Jamaica Road with the Clove and Cripplebush Roads. Jamaica Road is Fulton Street. Clove and Cripplebush Roads are Bedford Avenue, one long block east of Franklin Avenue.
What the hell does cripplebush mean? Poor handicapped bushes. What about those flat bushes, do they also qualify under the ADA?
Current practice is to include a neighborhood name - ie Van WYck Blvd/ Briarwood.
Also happening slowly is the move to finally recognize that some stations are actually a "Station Complex" and should have a common name. I have heard Broadway/Nassau on the A called "Fulton St/ Broadway- Nassau" but signs still retain their spearate names. Two ther up and coming complexes are the two Myrtle Av stops:
Myrtle on the J/M is slowly becoming Myrtle/Broadway (at least accortding to some stations bulletins) and Myrtle on the L/ Wyckoff on the M is slowly becoming Myrtle Wyckoff. I have also heard "59th St/Lexingtion Ave" on the N/R and "Court Street/ Boro Hall" on the N/R."
Using a common name simplifies signage and suggests common entrance(s) with transfer s between A and B Division.
This is New York- Old names die hard.
A good look at any version of the map will reveal locations which are "Station Complexes" and at some point all will have a common name. Just remember- it takes time.
In giving directions to such stations I use the example of a person who changes their last name to another last name. Wetehr you use one or the other, they refer to the same person. I also explain that the two stations cross and use the example of Broadwaya nd 42 Street. I say If you go to 42 and Broadway or Broadway and 42 you are at the location.
I would just give them the name of the part of the station they are arriving in. For example, someone at 49th Street on the N and R wants to know how to get to 125th and Lex. I would tell them take the N or R to Lexington Avenue and then catch the 4 or 5. If I was at 125th and they were going to 49th, I would say take the 4 or 5 to 59th and transfer to the N, R, or W.
This is one of my little obsessions.
I'd call the Atlantic/Pacific complex Kingborough Plaza. Kings Plaza is a tacky shopping center down where the Nostrand IRT really should terminate.
I'd drop the 'Borough Hall' bit from Jay Street when they build the transfer to Lawrence and call both Brooklyn Plaza.
The big Fulton/B'way-Nassau complex would be Manhattan Plaza, and this just might become fact if they really do rehab and extend all the downtown connections.
74th-B'way/Roosevelt-Jackson Heights would compress to Jackson Heights Plaza.
East New York Plaza is obvious.
I'd call the Atlantic/Pacific complex Kingborough Plaza. Kings Plaza is a tacky shopping center down where the Nostrand IRT really should terminate.
I'd call it Atlantic Terminal or Atlantic Plaza.
I'd drop the 'Borough Hall' bit from Jay Street when they build the transfer to Lawrence and call both Brooklyn Plaza.
There already is a name for the area: Metrotech.
I'd also drop Borough Hall from the 2,3,4,5 station. Rename the whole thing Brooklyn City Hall (or Cadman Plaza if it confuses people).
The big Fulton/B'way-Nassau complex would be Manhattan Plaza, and this just might become fact if they really do rehab and extend all the downtown connections.
Naming all of your plazas for counties, occupied cities or islands is stupid. They can be anywhere, the location needs to be more specific.
Fulton-B'Way Nassau would be Fulton Street. The Broadway-Nassau name is extra and useless.
74th-B'way/Roosevelt-Jackson Heights would compress to Jackson Heights Plaza.
You love the name Plaza don't you? VARIETIZE MAN! These aren't really plazas anyway.
This one call Jackson Heights Square. It means the same thing. Or you can call it Victor Moore Arcade.
East New York Plaza is obvious.
No, it isn't. Broadway Junction is better.
Fulton-B'Way Nassau would be Fulton Street. The Broadway-Nassau name is extra and useless.
But the A/C runs along Fulton both through that station and through most of Brooklyn.
But the A/C runs along Fulton both through that station and through most of Brooklyn.
Coincidence. The R train runs along Broadway in both Manhattan and Queens, but it doesn't mean they're the same street. AFAIK, one cannot drive straight from Fulton Street Manhattan to Fulton St Brooklyn without getting very wet indeed.
Also, it would be its only stop on Fulton St Manhattan, so it'd be rather a good name (unlike Franklin Av on the S, Steinway St on the G-R-V etc etc). If you can't tell the difference between a 2 track station in Manhattan and a 4 track line in Brooklyn, then you deserve to get well and truly lost.
While the connection between them today is irrelevant, the common Fultons are not a coincidence. Both were the landing for the Fulton ferry in days yore. Before that Ferry, Fulton Street in Manhattan was called Fair Street east of Broadway and Partition Street west of it. In Brooklyn it was called Ferry Road from the riverfront to Flatbush Avenue, and the Brooklyn and Jamaica Road from there.
Broadway in Manhattan and Queens (and Brooklyn and Staten Island for that matter) are completely unrelated.
Was Fulton Street called Brooklyn and Jamaica Road all the way to Queens, or did Brooklyn and Jamaica Road curve to go along the present Jamaica Avenue at Broadway Junction, and if it did, what was the easternmost part of Fulton Street called back then?
- Lyle Goldman
The easternmost part of Fulton Street did not exist, it was laid out with the area grid.
In fact, so was Fulton east of Utica. Fulton used to turn south at Utica Avenue to become Hunterfly Road. Brooklyn and Jamaica Road would resume at about Howard Avenue and East New York Avenue where Flatlands Neck Road (Kings Highway) ended at Hunterfly Road. That's why ENY Avenue becomes Jamaica Avenue.
Thank you. That's very interesting.
By the way, why does Mapquest refer to Pacific Street as "Michael Griffith Street"? What's that supposed to be? Some kind of rhyming slang? (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
I guess if you zoom out and/or scroll the map over, you'd see both names. I haven't seen it in person, but I assume this is one of those honorary names, like University Avenue/Martin Luther King Boulevard.
I personally think that if they put up names of people nobody knows on street signs, there should be plaques that describe who this person was, like in parks.
Michael Griffith was chased by whites out of Howard Beach onto a speeeding car along the Belt Pkwy. He died instantly. The mastermind of the group was released about a year ago. Michael Griffith lived on Pacific Street somewhere btwn Rochester and Albany Aves. This incident took place in the late 80s.
Funny you should mention that incident. After living in Queens most of my life, I finally tried New Park Pizza on Cross Bay Blvd, which is where the incident started. It may be the best Pizza in Queens, and I'm hard to impress. Any other suggestions on where to get good pizza?
Either it's gotten a lot better since I used to stop there, or out taste in pizza is much different.
Not bad, just ordinary.
Ordinary? It's thin crust, brick oven cooked Pizza. That's why I thought it was so good.
I think the brick oven is after my time.
The secret of pizza ovens is that the heat comes from both above and below and getting the right balance is the single most important factor (or so I've been told).
Out my way, the best pizza (on points, by consensus of my family, one Brooklynite, one Philadelphian, and two Long Islanders) is Sayville Pizza, on Main Street in Sayville. Have to travel 10 miles and pass maybe two dozen pizza parlors to get it.
The Philaldelphian thinks Francesco's on Union Blvd. in Babylon is better.
Dani's House Of Pizza. It is on Lefferts Blvd in Kew Gardens. It sits right on top of the Kew Gardens LIRR Station.
God, I have not been there in years. In fact, it's been about 11 years. My last memory of visiting that place was in 1991 when I was still dating my first girlfriend.
A block of Brooklyn Avenue near Dean Street is renamed 'Ann Marie Blinn Avenue' after a reknowned Bed-Stuy resident who devoted herself to the betterment of the community. They should make a movie about her life story (Was born around the corner from where she lived; was the President of the Women's Republican Club of Brooklyn; helped save the 'Tin House' Firehouse of Bed-Stuy; was part of the neighborhood committee to save the Franklin Avenue Shuttle; assisted with area Girl Scout fund raisers; was involved with Brooklyn senior citizen rights and affairs; left millions to be divided among relatives).
Sadly, Ann Marie died last November. She was constantly visited by members of the NYFD before she passed. She was a rare person...
Ever since I rode to Broadway Junction as a 12 year old kid I've found it strange that this station carried the name of what would actually be a railroad designation instead of a location for the customers to know. Of course "Broadway" does designate the street it stops at. But it is a unique name which makes life somewhat interesing.
Myrtle on the J/M is slowly becoming Myrtle/Broadway (at least accortding to some stations bulletins)
I think Myrtle-Broadway is a throwback to when the Myrtle el still ran upstairs at Myrtle. Like you said, old habits die hard.
It's appropriate to call the station Myrtle/Broadway, because "Myrtle Avenue" by itself is not very meaningful for M Line riders.
In long-ago retrospect, I'm surprised the Kings County named the Brighton Line station "Franklin Avenue" to match the Fulton St. Line name, considering that the line paralleled Franklin Avenue for three stations (assuming Dean St., Park Pl. and Consumer's Park were all open at the time).
I call the shuttle station Franklin-Fulton. (Not just Fulton, because that would confuse people; not just Franklin, for the reason you gave. I call the IND and IRT stations just plain Franklin.)
Good point, Paul. I suspect it's because the shuttle terminal angles itself closer to the corner of Franklin Avenue at Fulton. But in logically speaking, the terminal at Franklin/Fulton should have been named 'Fulton St.' since the Shuttle parallels Franklin Avenue most of it's route anyway.
Current practice is to include a neighborhood name - ie Van WYck Blvd/ Briarwood.
I believe that instance is actually there to avoid confusion with Jamaica - Van Wyck.
Also happening slowly is the move to finally recognize that some stations are actually a "Station Complex" and should have a common name.
Agreed. But if one goes too far with it it could get confusing. The following might have some useful purpose in addition to Bedford Junction already mentioned.
Chambers St (A)(C) and WTC (E) > Park Place
Chambers St (J)(M)(Z) > Brooklyn Bridge
Broadway - Nassau St (A)(C) > Fulton St
Roosevelt Av (E)(F)(G)(R)(V) and 74th St (7) > Jackson Heights Junction
Court St (M)(N)(R) > Borough Hall
62nd St (M)(W) and New Utrecht Av (N) > Bath Junction
Here is my list (additions):
74-Roosevelt/Jackson Heights
62- New Utrecht/Bath Junction
Court Street- Boro Hall/Civic Center
Jay- Lawrence Street (delete Boro Hall from this one!)
Broadway/Lafayette- Bleecker
42 st/5-6 av
Atlantic Av/ Pacific Street- LIRR
Delancey/Essex (this one is almost happening)
23/Ely- Court Square (delete "House" from 7 lline )
WTC Area- Rename all stations as WTC/"old name" ("old name" is the current name- i.e. WTC/Park Place.) Some of the stations already have this such as the A, 1 and N/R (I know the 1,N,R stations are currently closed)
Rename Chambers on the J to Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall like the Lex
Metropolitan av/Lorimer St (G and L) Leave the Grand Street on the G tablets.
Franklin (S and A/C- rename to Franklni Av- Fulton St.
53 Street line and 59 Columbus Circle already have unified names.
I would remove Ely from 23rd Street, and just name the whole thing Court Square.
Whatever you do, don't call it just 23rd Street -- then the E and V would each stop at two 23rd Street stations.
(Yes, I know the R stops at two 36th Streets, the D used to stop at two 7th Avenues, and the B used to stop at 47th-50th Streets, 50th Street, and Bay 50th Street. No need to make things even more confusing.)
Also, the station tiles and mosaics in the 23/Ely station are in such great shape, and I think they are original. So a name change would warrant the tablets to be covered. I don't know what it is about the station,but it's a very attractive color scheme, and the tiles have held up better than most stations.
Good point. I don't generally find IND-styling terribly attractive, but 23rd-Ely is really nice. The only station I can think of with even nicer colors is 163rd.
It seems 163rd is a little different than a lot of IND stations. I also notice there isn't a colored band along the ceiling there, like at other IND stations. Is that true for the whole station, or is it just in the spot where you took your photo? I know 23rd on on 8th (I hate the yellow color scheme there) and one of the stations on Queens Blvd line (36th? - I can't remember) also doesn't have a colored ceiling band.
For some reason, the 8th Avenue local stations don't have color bands. The one exception I can think of is 81st, where a color band was added in the rehab.
Believe it or not, I like the color at 23rd.
You know what, I never fully realized that, I did notice it at 23rd, but I don't travel the 8th Ave too much, and when I do it's mostly north of 14th or south of 59th, and the expresses do have the bands. I wonder why they never added bands on the local stations.
the station was renovated under Gunn.
74-Roosevelt/Jackson Heights
Bit of a long namem, but at least it loses the Broadway bit. Jackson Heights Square or something like that would be nicer.
62- New Utrecht/Bath Junction
I thought Bath Junction meant those cross-streets anyway - if you have to keep the street names put them in parentheses afterwards:
Bath Junction (New Utrecht Av) [on the Sea Beach Line]
Bath Junction (62nd St) [on the West End Line]
Broadway/Lafayette- Bleecker
Only once you can get to both platforms in Bleecker St. Otherwise it'd get even more confusing than it is at present.
Atlantic Av/ Pacific Street- LIRR
Atlantic Junction? Atlantic Plaza? Long Island Terminal?
WTC Area- Rename all stations as WTC/"old name" ("old name" is the current name- i.e. WTC/Park Place.) Some of the stations already have this such as the A, 1 and N/R (I know the 1,N,R stations are currently closed)
And gradually phase out the old names.
Rename Chambers on the J to Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall like the Lex
I'd take the opportunity to remove the City Hall bit. City Hall is a station close by on the Broadway Line, which you can't get to within fare control.
Franklin (S and A/C- rename to Franklni Av- Fulton St.
Bedford Junction sounds nicer.
I thought Bath Junction meant those cross-streets anyway - if you have to keep the street names put them in parentheses afterwards
Bath Junction is unknown to anybody living there. In addition, they would be confused as to what "Bath" refers.
Bath Junction refers to the railroad junction, 62nd Street is a side street and wouldn't warrant a stop (let alone an express stop) if it wasn't for the Sea Beach below.
Bath Junction is unknown to anybody living there.
No reason not to make it known to future generations. Anyone who already lives there won't look at the signs - the station is still at 62nd St and New Utrecht Av and the West End Line is still above you.
In addition, they would be confused as to what "Bath" refers.
Explain.
Bath Junction refers to the railroad junction, 62nd Street is a side street and wouldn't warrant a stop (let alone an express stop) if it wasn't for the Sea Beach below.
Then they should be grateful for having two subway lines, or they wouldn't have any.
If the Sea Beach was the only line, it would almost certainly have a stop at New Utrecht Avenue.
Bath Beach once upon a time was a real beach, facing Gravesend Bay; the Belt Parkway was built over it.
Bath Beach is the neighborhood north of Belt, south of 86th St, east of Dyker Park/14 Av, and edging over to about Stillwell. It's mostly small 2-3 family homes: some parts are gorgeous, other parts are one step up from a slum (as I recall from the last time I was there).
That is what 'Bath' refers to. Bath Junction is a few blocks away from the Bath Beach neighborhood; the subway station there is not the one people coming from Bath Beach use.
People from that part of Brooklyn, tho', would understand instantly, as I did.
And of course, the West End Line was originally the Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island.
Bath Junction isn't a few blocks away, it's 20 blocks away, and would be confusing as it is not in Bath Beach.
If you want to call it New Utrecht Junction, go ahead, but what about the W riders?
Bath Beach once upon a time was a real beach, facing Gravesend Bay; the Belt Parkway was built over it.
Demolish the Belt Parkway!!!
That is what 'Bath' refers to. Bath Junction is a few blocks away from the Bath Beach neighborhood; the subway station there is not the one people coming from Bath Beach use.
Better than some "Junction" stations I can think of, which can be as much as ten miles from the place they mention!
Public names of junctions in the U.S. generally follow one of three practices:
1. The name of the location where the junction is -- Parkville Junction (former SBK-LIRR) is in the area of Brooklyn known as Parkville.
2. A location where one transfers to get to the place named in the junction.
3. The name or nickname of the railroad you're intersecting with.
"Bath Junction" could be (2) for the place to change for Bath Beach or (3) the junction with the Brooklyn, Bath and (Coney Island or West End) RR.
Since the BB&CI predated the Sea Beach, it's a question why it was Bath Junction instead of Sea Beach Junction, since it obviously wasn't a junction until the Sea Beach came along, and the junction is usually named for the newer road.
On the A Line, most of the C/R's announce it "this is Broadway Junction, Broadway ENY", and they call the J/Z Lines Broadway-Eastern Parkway and the L Line calls it Broadway Junction.
I'm pretty sure I saw "Eastern Parkway" signs on the "J" line.
I thought it was supposed to be Broadway Junction, than I thought I had the wrong station.
Maybe TA hasn't changed all their signs yet.
Two moronic tresspassers were killed on the SEPTA Neshamity Line (R3) today when they were stuck and killed by a CSX freight train on the 3 track portion of the Line. The men were walking away from the train in the middle of the track. The train engineer was constantly blowing his whistle, but them men evidently assumed that the train was on one of the other two tracks. They were seen to give the up and down fist "horn blow" sign w/o turning around. The train stuck both men and dragged their bodies 100 feet before they were thrown clear.
When are people going to LEARN?!
I doubt those guys will ever do that again.
I doubt those guyes will ever breath again.
About 10 minutes after the world ends.
-Hank
Glad you know that. When you and I expire, will we also have the same ten minutes?
That makes no sence! Did the Bible run out of snappy comebacks or something?
I don't know. What does your Bible say?
I burned my Bible years ago.
Well, not literally, but figuratively. You don't have to believe in the Bible to believe in God. In fact, I only came to realize what Catholicism is really all about after I distanced myself from the church and everything else that was associated with it. I think that now I understand life a lot better and feel the power of Him much more than I ever did reading the Bible.
AEM7
As in 'Never'...
-Hank
You'll need a little more than that. Move beyond blame and tell me about your compassion for the families of the deceased. You do have compassion, do you not?
Where is your compassion for the incident engineer? To be honest, I can relate to the engineer better than I can relate to the families of the victims. I've seen more deaths on the railroad than I have seen deaths in my family. That's kind of easy when you work with trains and have only four people in your family.
AEM7
The victims are undergoing retraining to teach them not to walk on train tracks without paying attention. Odds are very good that they'll never walk on tracks again.
Was I unclear in the fact that what is left of both these idiots is now lying on the tracks covered by white plastic sheeting?
Actually they are in a very big refrigerated filing cabinet, in thick black bags the say in white letters on the side "Corener"
"When are people going to LEARN?! "
Their learning days are over.
Elias
At the same time you and I learn about what is important in life.
You seem to already have all the answers.
Excuse me while I go and laugh...
How sad it is to read a series of such posts about two people who died as a result of getting hit by a train! God made and loves them, and each of those two is as precious to the Creator as those who made remarks about them. Those who contributed to the "Moron" remarks might take a little quiet time to reflect about what they said regarding human life, a gift they themselves share on a most fragile basis. Railfans do have values and do respect life...and, like the "Morons", that gift of life might also go to a higher form in the blink of an eye. Peace.
>>God made and loves them<<
But they didn't use the brains God gave them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Speaking for myself, the comment can be made that "Most of us don't." Do you agree?
No. My brain tells me to avoid activities with a high probability that such activity will kill me.
-Hank
Morons are persons whose brain activity is so stagnated that they do not know their activities can kill them and everyone about them. Our famous Car inspector 'Taco Bell' hooked up a fifty volt lightbulb 'gimmick light' between knifeswitch and ribbon fuse blowing up everything to 'Kingdom Come.' So who supported the manufacture of trainsets outside along with bailing out nations that export petroleum products to our shores? WE DID!!! CI Peter
You certainly seem to be "On the Juice". Don't worry - you'll come around when there is a similar tragedy close to you. Get back to me then and we'll talk about important things. Thanks.
Are you serious or is this some sort of sarcastic joke?
Very serious. And Yourself?
Least of all should yours truly be sarcastic. And yourself?
It wasn't sarcasam. This wasn't a rumour, conjecture, subjectivity or idle gossip. These dips were morons and that is a FACT. Being a human does not excuse one from the possibility of being a complete and utter MORON. These two people are NOT role models and their actions are worthy of mock and riddicule. Just because they are dead, does not mean we should start to lie and cry spewing politically correct bullshit saying how their deaths were "tragic accidents" and how sad it is. These two dope did this to themselves, they paid the consequences for their stupidity and in no way will their act of complte and utter foolishness cause me to shed one tear or think one sorrowful thought. Your kind of blind, misguided compassion will be the death of us all.
You've said over and over that you don't care that they died, and that they deserved to die, and were morons who didn't deserve to live, okay, we get the point, why keep repeating it?
Because just like our amateur trackworkers, some folks still don't get why subtalk went on hiatus. :)
You're the best, Selkirk :)
Actually, I take that back, you can keep saying it over and over, I shouldn't have responded, I don't really care.
A moron is a person or persons (eg morons) who insist on walking on the roadbed of a busy rail line without looking or listening to see if a train is coming toward them from eihter in front or behind them. They do not automatically deserve to die. But when they walk along the roadbed and do not notice distant whistles coming toward them or turn around once in a while to see if there is a train behind them, they are taking a chance with their lives. And chances are they are going to wind up dead.
I didn't say they deserved to die, they just paid the price for their irresponsible actions. I don't even care. I just wanted to report that two dopes got themselves run over.
I had said myself they don't deserve to die. But if they walk along the road bed and don't pay attention and observe what is going on around they take a chance with their lives.
Thanks for your response. Change "dopes" to "human beings" and the greater railfan community will accept you. We do not rejoice over the deaths of railroaders, railfans or the uninformed as a result of railway operations.
I agree with you that the 2 we're not dopes. They were human beings. Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. I do not rejoice in knowing what happened to them. It should't happen to anyone.
However I wonder about anyone who'd walk along a railroad roadbed without looking or listening for a train coming along the track. What were they thinking? Nothing would happen to them?
They took a chance and paid for it.
I thought this was "Subtalk" and not "Sermonette". If you want to prostelatize, I suggest you take it to an appropriate forum.
YEAH THE POLITICALLY CORRECT OPINION HERE IS THAT TRESPASSERS ARE MORONS, even though many of us here have probably done so at some point or another. Well in fact I know of a few Subtalkers who had trespassed to get certain pics. And yet somehow trespassing for railfan purposes isn't moronic...
That said, those people who got killed on SEPTA were TOTAL MORONS. How can you hear a train and not take evasive action? Even ostriches aren't THAT stupid. When I was riding the Kagamazoo (Australian transcon), I saw that ostriches ran away when the train engineer blew the horn. Sometimes they try to fly and get caught before they could get clear though.
AEM7
How can you hear a train and not take evasive action? Even ostriches aren't THAT stupid.
Guinea hens are. I had to bring 775 to a complete stop, get off, and shoo one off the tracks this past Saturday at Branford. If Heypaul had been there with his gas grill I wouldn't have been quite so quick on the brakes :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And Amtrak Empire Corridor tends to nail a bald eagle every couple of weeks somewhere on the Hudson. They're not called "bird brains" for nothing ...
Isn't that illegal, national bird and all, don't they have to be buried with flags? I'm sorry I'm not American so I have no clue what the tradition is if you accidentally shoot/kill an eagle
About all they can do is call it in. It's not like you can steer around one when it flies into the train. I'm sure they flog the engine when it gets to Rensselaer.
You certainly seem to have a lot of power over life and death when you are at the controller. Is that really the kind of person you want to be, or is the fact that railway equipment is involved is somehow affecting your view of human life? Yours truly has operated for many, many hours and does not share your values. Please reflect upon what you have written and perhaps have it looked over by your familiy members.
Associating guinea hens with human beings does not bode well for an operator of 775, which yours truly has run also as 193. Think it over.
Good grief, Ray! I'm certainly NOT associating guinea hens with human life - quite the contrary. I'm simply commenting on the inherent stupidity of the creatures - they're dumber than chickens or even pheasants - and on the fact that I think barbecued barnyard fowl of most any variety makes a tasty lunch.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I whole-stomachly agree! Although I prefer my fowl butchered properly, not fouled.
-Hank
239th YAHD has 'Chinese Chicken.' Pigeons stay away from Redbirds but love Bombardier R142s. MacDonalds is just up the block....anyone for 'wings?' CI Peter
"How can you hear a train and not take evasive action?"
When you intend for the train to hit you.
Elias
Yeah, but this wasn't a suicide. Don't think about it too much. You're eyes might roll out of your head.
"Yeah, but this wasn't a suicide."
How do you know that?
We do not know the answer to your good question. That it happens so often is a human tragedy that should cause all good railfans, particularly those of us who do, or have, operated so extensively, to be prepared both mentally and spiritually to deal with the unfortunate consequences of such accidents.
Everytime I hear of teenagers sitting upon cool tracks on a hot summers day, I gasp in amazement after their legs are chopped off. Firsthand experience in the yard...R142 rolling in NOT under power...almost silent...and I stop my work to warn the crew on the affected track that don't intend to be hit...and the T/Os coming in know me/respect me/and repeatdly blast the horn as they roll into the shop for train troubles. Maybe we need the 'substitute teacher with a broomstick' to elevate common sense.
Were not the others "proselitizing" as you would define it, or did the remarks get to you? Railfans are considerate of human life, are they not?
Yes we are and I personally am glad that these two numbskulls took them selves out before their incompetance took the life of an innoscent bystander.
true, better they get killed than kill others with their stupidity
This is the appropriate forum for all ferroequinologists. Is not human life important to you?
How to put out a fire with gasoline...
Personally, I am all-for this type of self-administered post-partum abortion.
-Hank
Look Ray, I have the highest regard for human life. However, I also know that I can't save every stupid person from themselves. I disagree with AEM7 when he excuses trespassing in the name of railfanning. If you'll allow me to climb up on my soap-box for a moment, Real trains and real tracks are extrordinarilly dangerous. Trains can come from any direction at any time - without warning. For a trained person, the risks are reasonable. For the untrained person, the risks are unimaginable. For someone to knowingly put themselves in harms way - on a railroad ROW can only be described as ..... well, moronic!
Now we've been down this road before with HeyPaul and Rabid Reader and their indignation over the term "Darwin Award". They have a right to their opinion as do you and as do the rest of us. There are very few here who have actually seen the results of this moronic behavior. I've seen it more than a dozen times - first hand. Perhaps the de-humanization of the victims of train accidents is a coping mechanism. Then again it may just be a complete lack of sensativity. Regardless - if you don't care to participate, ignore it. However, please don't try to preach your morality or religion here. We don't need to go down that angry road again.
I will now step down from my soap box.
I disagree with AEM7 when he excuses trespassing in the name of railfanning.
Train Dude, if you read between the lines in my post, you will see that I was not endorsing trespassing in the name of railfanning. Perhaps my overly-dry sense of British sarcasm and humour is lost on many people here. I apologize for joking about the topic since it is clearly not something to be joked about.
So let me restate my position: I believe that trespassing in the name of railfanning is stupid, even though many people from this forum do it -- yet they criticize the "trespassers" for doing so. There is something for every railfan to think about. That was why I pointed out that certain people from Subtalk have trespassed to get pictures of signals, yet they are criticizing those people killed by the train. Now, THAT is something else. It is not only dangerously ignorant, but it is also hypocritical.
Also, if you read my post from the last time this topic came up, I made it very clear that trespassing/walking-on-track is not something anyone wants to do voluntarily. (I had a different handle then, so you would have to guess as to what my old handle is -- can't reveal it here for other reasons. If you really need to know, post on here and I will send you an email.)
AEM7
Thanks for the clarification. My apologies!
Real trains and real tracks are extrordinarilly dangerous.
Trains are no more dangerous than firearms. As long as you respect them, obey a few simple rules and use a reasonable amount of common sence one will be fine.
The minute you fail in any of these, you're dead meat, but if you don't, you are safer than walking along a busy street.
How sad it is to read a series of such posts about two people who died as a result of getting hit by a train! God made and loves them, and each of those two is as precious to the Creator as those who made remarks about them.
God may have loved them, but He was a bit stingy when it came to passing out brains.
God loves all of us so much that he has given us freedom of choice.
Sometimes that does not work out so well.
Needless to day, death is just another face of life.
You cannot have life without death regardless of what religious beliefs you hold or choose not to hold.
Because (according to me and others) life is sacred, so too is death.
Some death is meaningless to us, but the life had meaning, therefore the death must have meaning too, even if you can't figure it out. (And there is no reason *why* you should be able to figure it *all* out: some mystery must remain)
Sometimes we use an inappropriate(?) humor to put an understandable face on something that we fail to understand. Accept Life, Accept Death, and Accept those who deal with death differently.
Elias
All that sounds very pretty but people who die needlessly because they take unreasonable risks. They don't treasure the gift of their own lives so who are we to disagree.
Last week in Newsday there was an article about a 21 year old motorcyclist who was killed when he ran head first into a car. His boss said he left work, hopped on his bike, popped a wheelie and went down the road on one wheel until he lost control. His mother said he was always a daredevil who opted for a 'cool looking' helmet instead of his full coverage helmet. Here is clearly a young man who didn't value his life or those around him. Pity and sorrow are wasted on him. He got exactly what he demanded. He was a moron. Feel sorry for the innocent victims of his stupidinty.
Makes me think of the couple that died in that drag racing crash on Long Island last week.
Who in their right mind gives a 17 year old the keys to a Corvette?
Prosecute the parents...
-Hank
What is drag racing, and how do you crash in it? Why did this couple die?
AEM7
These true "morons" were racing in their cars in speeds at about 100 mph on a normal street dodging other cars, and hit a couple making a turn killing them. Of course the "morons" are not hurt (except for an eye injury), and the innocent couple is dead.
Drag racing is when two cars pull up to a red light, usually late at night, and in an effort for the drivers to demonstrate their masculinity, rev their engines until the light turns green and then floor it. They go at top speed, usually in excess of 80-100 MPH, to the next light and see who gets there first.
How do they crash? Well, 17-year-olds driving at 80+ MPH on city streets lends itself to certain dangers. They could lose control and collide with A) a fixed object such as a telephone pole, B) another car on the street, or C) each other.
I drive a 1986 Trans Am, and sometimes get idiots wanting to race me up Ashland Avenue late at night when I'm coming home from my girlfriend's place. Invaribly, it's usually a car full of teenage pricks in some pimped-out Honda Civic with the neon, little blue lights on the hood, thumping hip-hop music, and the obligatory fart-can exhaust pipe (this type of car commonly known as a "ricer" in F-body and Corvette circles). Occasionally, it's some 20-something yuppie in an obnoxious-looking luxury SUV that wants to impress me, but usually it's teenagers in a ricer.
My car has been abused enough by previous owners... I've got better things to do with it than to indulge these morons.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oooooh, right. I have heard of the same phenomenon in Taiwan, where I resided for a while. It's called "biau-tsea", except it's done with motor-scooters in Taiwan, and it is done in a much more orderly fashion. They actually block off part of the highway past midnight to do it, and the motor scooters that take part have to be the same type, with the same engine, and of the same year. The only differentiating feature is the colour of their indicator lights. Other traffic tend to avoid that highway at that time, although some do make it onto there and get into accidents. The racers usually ride alone, but frequently the races will offer the girls who hang around a sum of money to be carried on a racing vehicle. It was real big in the 80s.
A while back they ran a series of television ads featuring a supposedly "mom" going up to the highway and pleding her son not to continue to "biau". Then it showed a few incident scene, and it showed some crying relatives. The ad (obviously, with police intervention programme on the highway also) was surprisingly effective, and the practice was basically ironed out (or driven out to rural highways) by the beginning of the 90s. That is quite an achievement for Taiwan which in the 80s was commonly known as "the Island of Lawlessness".
AEM7
It's been rumored that drag racing often takes place in the Bronx, near the Hunt's Point market, on weekend nights.
Who in their right mind gives a 17 year old the keys to a Corvette?
I agree. I don't have a problem with teenage drivers, but I think every male teenager should be forced to drive a Geo Metro until they turn 25.
(I drove a Chevette until I was 20, and then went without a car until I bought a Saturn SL2 last year, which promptly died. It's only been since October that I've had a car that's capable of passing garbage trucks without breaking a sweat, but now I'm much older and wiser.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think people should have to use only transit between certain ages in their lives. For example, say you were allowed to leave home alone without your parents permission after turning 16, but you may only do so by using the transit or walking. Then you can drive from when you are 21.
I am still a transit user. Habits build up young...
If this were true, many more cities would have a transit system, because everyone would be yelling for transit construction and subsidy instead of highway construction.
AEM7
I don't think the driving age should be raised, it should be eliminated.
Until such time, people under 16 (or whatever the driving age is) should get free transit.
Now, if you did raise the driving age to 21, you still wouldn't see a clamor for transit, for the same reason that the drinking and other ages are 21.
The driving age isn't a problem in a city. But a suburban home is a prison for anybody who cannot drive. Suburban sprawl is one of the worst crime perpetrated against youth.
i know more screwed up kids that grew up in the suburbs than anywhere else. yes, some of that grew up in the city dabbled in all kinds of crime, but we didn't go into the garage looking for chemicals to huff. there was always something to do, whereas in the burbs, if you're carless your f*cked.
burn the burbs to the ground baby.
I don't have a problem with teenage drivers, but I think every male teenager should be forced to drive a Geo Metro until they turn 25.
As the father of two sons and two daughters, let me observe that it's not just the males who need to be tamed. My older daughter managed to acquire quite a driving record by the time she was 25. One of the few positive things to come from her decision to forgo college, from my perspective, was that I wasn't financially responsible for her insurance during most of those years :-) My older son and younger daughter, by comparison, had similar driving records - one ticket each while in their teens, also one accident each in which they were "contributory" but not wholly at fault and one accident each which was totally out of their control. (Anon_e_mouse Jr. doesn't drive yet... and I'm in no hurry for him to start.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Electric TRACTION duty will do the trick ... I never drove a car until YEARS after working Arnines ... I had already gained WAY too much respect for the phycial force known as "momentum" before I was able to be stupid in a motor vehicle. One learns when TRYING to stop a train on their first outing that cars are wimpy. Good preparation. :)
Actually, if you think about my own situation (and I *know* I'm not alone among transit employees) I was given the keys to MORE than 800 tons of rolling steel and yet couldn't drive 2000 pounds of mysetery metal legally. I got my electric locomotive certification and my diesel locomotive certification before I EVER got a DMV certification. Strange stuff. :)
As the father of two sons and two daughters, let me observe that it's not just the males who need to be tamed.
That is the truth. I remember being in my friend's Mustang at a light a few years ago and some teenage girl pulled up next to us in her Mustang and started reving. Luckily we were old enough (mid-20's at the time) to know better, but if we were still teenagers, we may have taken her up on it (dumb). When the light changed she sped off at top speed, and we just sat there. We felt old and like wusses......but at least we were smart old wusses..........
... AND you're STILL here to tell us about it ... popping the Darwin puppet up over the Punch and Judy stage can be an exercise in personal torture, but there's reasons why republicans eat their young. :)
Exactly.....
"We felt old and like wusses......"
Right. The Stupid oned do not have the chance to get old.
(Drag Racer Darwin... at your call.)
You didn't mention that the other car was a 2002 Mercedes. For once I hope every ambulance chasing lawyer in the free world descends on the parents of these two morons. It's hard to believe that parents would be so indulgent of their 17 year olds. These parents deserve to be sucked dry for their stupidity.
I know its been a few years since living in Southeastern PA, but did the spelling of Neshaminy change since I left?
Isn't this the West Trenton Line, or in RDG days, the New York Branch?
Jim K.
Chicago
Sorry, it wasn't the SEPTA Neshaminy Line, it was on the CSX Trenton Line, dispatched by SEPTA. The SEPTA Neshaminy Line run from JENKIN to NESHAMINY interlockings.
Thanks for the clarification.
That would be the ex-RDG New York Short Line which ran between Newtown Jct. (NX) and Neshaminy Falls or CP Neshaminy - Yes?
Jim K.
Chicago
No, the part b/t Neshaminy (no CP) and TRENT.
No CP-Neshaminy?
I was looking at a copy of the RDG Employee timetable effective 4/26/1974. I'm guessing things have changed out there.
Jim K.
Chicago
It is a SEPTA interlocking and is just NESHAMITY, capitalized. You know, only if you want to be a stickler.
So is it 'Neshaminty' or 'Neshaminy'?
You made two posts where you insist each is correct.
-Hank
Sorry, it's Neshaminy. Bad habbits are hard to break.
Let the first person who has not done a moronic thing cast the first stone. What a terrible way to describe people who suddenly came to a bad end. Have you no sympathy?
Sympathy is earned, not given. People who died in the WTC get sympathy. I'd give sympathy to the hijackers before I would give it to this pair. At least they died for a cause their believed in. These guys died because they couldn't be bothered to TURN AROUND.
Let me ammend that. I have SYMPATHY for the poor Engineer and Conductor (even tho they were CSX) who had to watch these guys splatter themselves against the front of their nice clean locomotive and who then have to endure a police investigation, manditory drug test and years of mental anguigsh and flashbacks. I have SYMPATHY for the South Philadelphia engine hoslter who has to cleap up the splatter from the front of said locomotive. I have SYMPATHY for the county medical examiner who has to scoop what's left of these guys up from the rails. I have SYMPATHY for their families and children (if any) who have lost (possibly) their primary wage earners. Get your priorities straight and send your sympathy where it counts.
**CSX RULEBOOK - PROCEEDURE FOR ENCOUNTERING MORONS ON THE TRACKS**
1) Sound Locomotive Horn
2) Activate Locomotive Bell
3) Activate Stroboscopic Ditch Lights
4) Engage Locomotive Energency Brake
5) Activate Windshield Wipers
Mike, I agree with you 110%. I work for NJ Transit, I see and hear about similar "morons" all of the time, people who run in front of trains entering the station at grade crossings, or even people scaling the fence between tracks to make a train. Unfortunately, most of them are still alive, maybe they're not "good enough" to be with God yet.
BTW, when we notice a "moron" doing the aforementioned stunts, we do not allow them to ride our train. After all of the trouble of risking their life, we force them to wait for the NEXT train. If they refuse, we have police remove them because originally they were either trespassing or interfering with the safe operation of our train, both criminal offenses.
After all of the trouble of risking their life, we force them to wait for the NEXT train.
Here here! That's a great policy that will hopefully learn some people a lesson and save lives. Its good to know that somebody out there is using their noodle. Is this practice widespread throughout NJT? If it isn't I would write to your superintendant and suggest it become offical policy to allow/instruct conductors to deny transportation to people who take extreme risks in order to board a train.
I'm not sure if it's "official" policy, but most conductors I've worked with follow the same line of thinking, so it's pretty widespread.
I did the same thing when I worked on a light rail line where trespassing was very common. If I saw you on the tracks, you got yelled at, and you sure as hell weren't getting on my train.
One of my colleagues had a great line for this situation:
"Jag skiter fan i om du dör, men du ska fan i mig inte dö under mitt tåg."
("I don't give a g*ddamn if you die, but I'll be damned if you're gonna die under my train.")
Mvh Tim
"I don't give a damn if you die..." The speaker to whom you refer could not have been a person looking out for the best interests of railroads, would you not agree?
No, I would not.
I think that statement emphasizes that it isn't and shouldn't be the driver's job to keep the passengers alive (before they get on the train, that is). That's the passengers' job.
-- Tim
While I think your heart is in the right place, you are taking that quote out of context.
The quote is properly taken to mean, "If you are determined to die, there is nothing I can do to stop you - except that I can and will make sure you didn't die on my train, on my watch, tonight." (or do the best I can in that regard.)
As a physician who has faced that kind of situation more than once, I understand where that quote comes from, and can't argue with it.
Here's a question only I could pose :
Supposing you could travel back in time, so you could see the subway system firsthand, instead of old maps, when would that be?
I personally would like to go back to around 1910, so I could ride all the original, unimproved els. Especially the original Broadway Brooklyn line, the two-track line with island platforms.....
Well, Mr. Peabody, I'd set the wayback machine for February 28, 1870, the location - Devlin's Clothing Store at the corner of Broadway and Warren Street.
Mr. Peabody indeed :)
I KNEW my pal Selkirk would jump on the time machine fantasy.
Good one, you could ride Beach's Air Bucket.
Always did my best work underground. :)
Actually, Selkirk, when were you a motorman on the Concourse Line?
I'd be content to have ridden all the old Brooklyn els -- 5 Av, 3 Av, Fulton St, Myrtle, Lexington. The Manhattan els too, 3 Av especially.
Oh, I'd definitely want to go do that too ... but Beach's little thing would have been a REAL treat ... that's one thing I haven't seen. Did the third avenue el, did the Myrtle and imagine the others looked pretty similar. But Beach's little ditty was someplace I haven't been ...
I'd be content to have ridden all the old Brooklyn els -- 5 Av, 3 Av, Fulton St, Myrtle, Lexington.
Don't forget the "Old Main Line" (Washington and York Sts)
early thirties riding the IND brand new and of course the Manhattan El's, Low V's Hi V's Composites, Gate cars a lot of trains to chose from
But of course! But wouldn't you be a bit curious as to Mr. Beach's sneaky subway that got Boss Tweed more honked off than Boss Hogg? :)
If I can open it up beyond New York, I think I'd visit the Chicago Rapid Transit Company some time between the opening of the State Street Subway in 1943 and the abandonment of Niles Center service in 1948. Quite a lot of the "L" system (elevated and at grade) disappeared during CTA's first decade, when I was too young to have done any systematic railfanning.
And, of course, as long as I found myself back in 1945 or so, I wouldn't miss the opportunity to fill in more of the Chicago Surface Lines system, to say nothing of the CA&E and North Shore. In my childhood I did get to ride several of the CTA trolley lines, one line of the Chicago & West Towns, and the North Shore's Skokie Valley Route, but I still missed out on a lot of good stuff which was soon to disappear.
Alan Follett
I've a one track mind, since I've posted this before. Set the machine for summer 1939 - I'd love to ride the IND Worlds Fair Route. Then I'd marathon through the rest of the system, including the Brooklyn and Manhattan els, ride the H & M, check out the MP-41's on the LIRR, and be sure to have brought along my camera and about 100 or so rolls of slide film (36 exposures). All the film I couldn't carry, I'd just store in one of those convenient lockers which were found everywhere, including Grand Central or Penn station.
I'd love to take the Myrtle el and take it over the Brooklyn Bridge, then get off and do the Manhattan els, come back and take the Fulton el. Hell, I'd love to do all of the old els.
Just letting everybody know that I arrived safe and sound here in Chicago about 1:00 Monday morning (Central time). Not bad, considering I left Philly around 12:30 Sunday afternoon. Aside from the usual squeaks and rattles, my car made the trip without a hitch.
Special thanks to heypaul, BMT Man, and Kevin Walsh for taking the time to show me some highlights of the NYC subway system in Brooklyn and Queens on Saturday.
I'll write a full report tomorrow, but right now I'm hitting the sack... I'm exhausted!
-- David
Chicago, IL
I am a young railfan *teenager for specifics* who has pretty muched lived in an age of the subway that is the opposite of that of the young rail fan of the 60's and 70's. High Tech Trains, graffitiless trains. Better service, cleaner stations etc. But I am interested, in the subway fans of the past, what were your experiences, as young kids riding in a subway in the 50's or in the upside down subway world of the 60's and 70's? Was it more exciting then, then it is today? What were your past railfan experinces back as young kids in those times?
You need to know that almost everyone thinks that what they knew as kids is the best! You were young and the world was new and exciting. I think it's like a genetic thing, almost. :)
Having said that, railfanning in the '50s for a kid was both great and depressing. Great because all the old subway fleets were still around, you could still ride a BU. You had a shot at a Brooklyn trolley. Even parts of Brooklyn were still rural. The subway system still had something of a flavor of railroading--no radio, no command center. Motormen had to make decisions to keep on the road that they'd get fired for now.
OTOH, the '50s were a very depressing time. There was a lot to see, but it was disappearing at a rapid pace. The entire Brooklyn trolley system essentially disappeared in six years with three lines only hanging on a few years longer. Every time a paper notice went up on the windows of a subway, el or trolley we cringed--it meant something was going to be cut or abandoned. Older railfans traveled the country on a shoestring to ride systems before they disappeared.
Now we have a lot of great memories you'll never have. But at least you live in an era when you can see new lines being built and new service expanded instead of the opposite.
Great post. At least back then, no NIMBY's existed. Now, in this age, we have them and other community groups essentially styming any extra plans for development (excluding real plans like the 2nd ave. subway and perhaps the 7 extension to the Javits).
I would really like to see the Rockaway ave. line revived.
I rode every line in the late 60s.
Definitely I was more careful about personal safety then. I didn't go into questionable neighborhoods in the front car at night.
The rule of thumb was in any sort of dubious neighborhood you ride in one of the two middle cars where the conductor will be.
I NEVER rode in the last car, even in rush hour (that was probably extreme, but it was habit). Now I regularly do it in rush hour because it's less crowded.
Express trains were faster then - an express run like 59th to 125th under CPW is much less fun with timers.
The quaint old equipment on some lines was fun too - Myrtle Ave. especially. I think I still saw a conductor collecting fares on the Dyre Ave line.
I'd say it was a lot EASIER then. Security wasn't so tight around rail facilities, you could walk in, go to a yard office, and most of the time, they would say it was okay to take pictures and give you a bare-minimum safety lecture about places to avoid, etc.
If you look in the NYC Subway Resources photo archives, you'll see a lot of photos I took in 1964-1967 right IN Coney Island yard. All I did there was ask someone at the yard office, and while it wasn't really "Official" permission, one of the men working there offered to walk me around the whole yard!
Well, I can vouch for the 70's and '80's--FASTER rides--slants on the A, F, early on, E, swift LOUD runs on the 2, 3, 4, 5 (with a comglomeration of R-17's, 15s,12's, up to 33's MIXED in ONE TRAINSET!!) a clunky ride on the R-16's thru Bway Brooklyn that was a DUMP then, a hot ride to Rockaway on the R10 A's--just LOUD LOUD LOUD, dirty dirty dirty--it was a HOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tony Leong
I would have to say the 1950s and 1960s. I remember riding the Coney Island Ave. PCC cars the entire line from Bartel-Pritchard Sq. to Coney Island. The ride through Park Circle with the bushes on either side of you was like a short ride in the country. The IRT Lexington Ave. Line from Atlantic Ave. to Woodlawn Rd. with the Low-V cars holding down the service. The whine and groan of the motors as the train proceeded through the express areas of the system were great. But I must say that the Myrtle Ave. Line was my favorite. I remember the BU cars and the Q cars in later years. I remember when the switch Motormen at Metropolitan Ave. would make six car trains from two three car units for rush hour service. The Van Dorn coupler with link and pin and the glad hands of the air hoses being coupled. I watched that take place every chance I got while attending high school from 1963 to 1967. What a treat!!!
I must say that growing up in the 1960's Made me a railfan. I fell in love with the BMT Standards and Triplexes that were still in regular service back then. The R-30's did nothing for me, and I really doubt if I would be a railfan had I not known the pre-war cars.
You and Bob both rang the bell for me with those thoughts. You were lucky to catch the tail end of first generation stuff. At just a bit older I was lucky to know the system [and other area RR's] when those trains were still the backbone of the fleet and what we considered new was in the minority. I enjoyed what you mentioned, had the added honors of knowing the IRT High-V's, and my brief encounter with the Manhattan el MUDC's,BU gate cars on myrtle, etc.It soon vanished, 1955 was a turning point, within 10-12 years it was a different world. May 12 was the end of 3rd Ave service in Manhattan and it wasn't long before the R17's invaded the IRT and the end of the High-V's was in sight. BUT who'd have dreamed on discovering the Q's that they'd be running them 12-14 years later. Luck indeed. Should have seen them when they were good looking, before the rooves were lowered.The New York Central and some Pennsy stuff I got to know were frosting on the cake. In deference to the younger fans I'd have to say the last few years have been another crossroads. I stood onthe platform at Soundview on the Pelham just over two years ago and watched the parade of trains, many of which were redbirds and couldn't help but think that could have been the 3rd Ave el, or watching the variety of old IRT stock which the redbirds are sharing their fate now. You're catching the tail end of what was new to me, the intermediate age stuff like the 75 footers,and seeing a new generation come in.Guess it is all relative.
I was born in the early early 60's, and my memory of the subways goes back to about 1965....the old equipment to me, was much cooler to ride. During the 70's, the subway was a much more threatening place than it is now...it was dark and very dingy and dirty, and people were getting mugged, and getting really hurt, even killed. It seemed like every week you would hear about muggings or stabbings. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING was covered with graffitti, and the few tiny spaces without graffitti were incredibly dirty. It improved incredibly in the early 80's, the subway was suddenly a much brighter, safer place. Service is much better, or at least much more consistent. I think everyone from my age group or older will tell you that the subways are 100% better nowadays.
Still, everytime I daydream about the subway, it's the late 60's/ early 70's I'm daydreaming about. I conveniently forget about the bad parts when I do, however, and think about the great things....things like the Culver shuttle, the Myrtle Ave. El, and the Third Ave. El in the Bronx, things which are old ghosts now.
What I remember most favorably as a wee frother was the DARKNESS of everything. You'd come out of the sunlight into a dark place lit by dim lamps and trains with dim lamps. Took your eyes a while to get used to it, and when you left the subway, you were literally "blinded by the light."
But one thing that made up for it all was that on the IND, the motormen would often operate with the cab door WIDE open so you could see everything they were doing, they were friendly, would talk with you, explain what they were doing and why. Some would even let you TOUCH. There was this one nice old guy on the A train that actually let me OPERATE at the age of 8 for a few stops (and no, he wasn't a perv) with him behind me to make sure I didn't do anything wrong.
On the IRT, the cars had either round or square drop sashes so you not only got a clear view, but you'd have the wind in your face so you knew how fast you were going. The froth experience was MUCH better in the old days ... and crews weren't afraid of the "kids" ...
Well I started to get in the subways as a child in the sixties, I had a chance to ride some of the old grand trains such as the Low V's and the R1-9 trains.I remember how retro the Worlds Fair cars look on the Flushing Line with the blue and white scheme, my subway world started to crumble in the 70's, with the ugly stain of grafitti everywhere the TA didnt help much by painting the mainline IRT cars and Flushing trains white.The IRT was the orphan division at this time the trains were hot noisy and dirty beyond belief.The IND starting to get newer equipment with the R-44, R-46 trains, but like the R-142,s they had problems also.The 80's saw some changes, finally my division the IRT got the R-62 and R-62A's, junking some trains that date back to the late 40's, What was left over was rehabbed or better know as the "Redbirds". These trains were fast, much better than before, also major trackwork was done in the 80's after some derailments, There were track restricions with yellow flags where the trains had to go very slow, the trains back then ran a lot faster, than they do now.
100 % FUN !!! ...RAILFAN-WINDOWS EVERYWHERE !!!
NO TRANSVERSE CABS ANYWHERE !!!!!!!! yea !!!!!!
>>>>100 % FUN !!! ...RAILFAN-WINDOWS EVERYWHERE !!!
NO TRANSVERSE CABS ANYWHERE !!!!!!!! yea !!!!!!<<<
You are so disgustingly one dimensional.
Peace,
ANDEE
So am I ERIE LACKAWANNA-- 100% FUN
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
In the mid-60s, my cousin and I (we were about 10 yrs. old)always used to sneak rides on the 4 train (if our parents knew, they would've killed us). We always were trying to get to PBP and ending up at Woodlawn. We did not realize that we had to ride downtown to 125 and change to an uptown 6. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
It was supercalfragaliticxpyaldocious. Yeah, it's probally mispelled,
but what the hey. It was a blast. Trolleys in Brooklyn, Trolleys
over the QB, stopping at Welfare Island, where the elevator went up
to the first floor...More Trolleys from 242nd-Van Cortland Park
to Yonkers & Getty Square and more Trolleys, after riding the R-10 "A"
from Columbus Circle to 168th and the IRT Low Vs on the Broadway
Express to 242 VCP...Multi's on the 14th Street Line...Standards on
the Franklin~Coney Island Express in the summertime...Gate cars on
the Myrtle in Brooklyn [with on board fare collection] as well as the
Dyre Ave Scoot in the Bronx...R-1s on the BMT 4th Avenue Local...
Triplexes on the Sea Beach...SIRT cars on the Culver...High V's or
Steinways on the Lexington Avenue Local...R12/14 & 15s on the Flushing
Line...and those Gawd Awful Uglies on the Fulton Street El the Cs.
Those were the days. :-)
:-) Sparky
And I did forget, the Composites on the 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan
from Chatham Square North to the Bronx. And the paper transfers.
Paper transfer from 3rd Avenue El to M-15 to continue to South Ferry.
Paper transfer between Grand Central on 7, Third Avenue exit to the El.
Paper transfer between the IND & IRT\BMT at 74th-Roosevelt.
Paper transfer between Brooklyn buses at High Street,
Brooklyn Bridge to the Eight Avenue Subway.
Paper transfer between Bridge-Jay Street from the Myrtle Ave El to
Jay Street-Borough Hall.
Paper transfer at Marcy Avenue to B-29 toward Kent Avenue.
Paper transfer between Eight Avenue Subway and Franklin Avenue, BMT.
Paper transfer between Rockaway Avenue El & Subway stations at Fulton.
:-) Sparky
I am repeating what some of the fellow subtalkers have already stated, but not to overestimate things, trains were faster. Having the railfan window on a F-slant along QB gave you the impression that you were flying. Once you had the green over green signal leaving Queens Plaza towards Jamaica by the time you were passing 36st you couldn't read the station signs. So too were the runs on the CPW, Lex, and 7av expresses. Local stations were a blur.
The introduction of the R32, R33-36WF, R38, and R40s with the corrugated and polished steel surfaces had quite a dramatic effect since most of the B division trains were mostly drab olive-gray colors that were filthy.
I hated the graffiti period of the 70's. This was the time I was in high school. It didn't take long for a newly painted R16, R27-30 with the blue stripe on white scheme to get tagged with graffiti. Everytime I look at the photos on this site with a train or train station full of graffiti makes me cringe. I couldn't see through the railfan window on some trains.
Well, those are my memories to share with the board.
Jose
I don't have any particularly detailed memories of the subway - just that things were very noisy, and they had these funky automated cars on the Times Square - Grand Central shuttle. What I remember most are the Beeliners (RDC cars) that we would ride down from Poughkeepsie, changing at Harmon for the electric trains into Grand Central Terminal; the original Penn Station, where we would board the Broadway Limited for Chicago or one of the various C&O trains for Williamsburg, Virginia; steam locomotives pulling huge coal trains down to Tidewater, and heading back uphill with a string of empties; bumming a ride on the yard switchers at the Bloomsburg end of the Lackawanna branch from Scranton, three doors down from my grandparents' house; watching GG-1s flying past on the mainline to Harrisburg; riding with my great-uncle in the cab of 4908 as he made his final run on the Afternoon Congressional, and then deadheading back to Philadelphia in coach with him - the first time in over 40 years that he had ever ridden in coach (and the last time he would ever ride on a train); taking the Electroliner from Chicago to Aunt Audrey's house in Milwaukee; watching trains cross the Poughkeepsie bridge; watching the D&H's Alcos struggle up Richmondville Hill outside Cobleskill, NY, or listening to them whistle through the valley from my grandmother's house on the hill above Schenevus; riding the last streetcars in Washington, D.C. and then a few years later the same cars on the last days of service in Barcelona, Spain.
Memories!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was born in 1951. The first memories I had were of the RDG Company freight and passenger trains on the Bethlehem Branch near Hatfield. There were occasional steam locomotives, and then the Iron Horse Rambles of the late 1950's and early 1960's. We lived along the Bethlehem Branch for the first ten years of my life.
The Reading Company was still making money for its stockholders, and was to small operation in Philadelphia next to the PRR.
The next thing I remember is our trips to Aunt Dot and Uncle Earl's home in Kensington (near the Avenue and M Street), and my first introduction to the FKD el. It seemed in those days that there was always a train rattling by. Along the trip to Kensington there were many streetcars, Nearsides and 8000's, and I remember trying to catch all the destination signs. At an early age, I knew they each meant something about were the car was going.
Living close to Lansdale, there were the RDG MU trains on the Doylestown branch and of course, the half-hourly service between Lansdale and Reading Terminal. Then I discovered the timetable rack, and that trains also ran to Chestnut Hill, West Trenton, Hatboro, and Norristown. The Fox Chase wasn’t electrified until 1966. And there was also diesel train service to Bethlehem, New York (Jersey City), and Reading/Pottsville.
The first ride I had on an RDG MU, was a combo that had bucket mohair seats. I was in awe when we got to Reading Terminal - so many trains parked under one roof. The excitement of trains performing brake tests and pantograph drop tests. The sights and sounds are with me today.
Of course there were the numerous freight trains along the Trenton Cutoff powered by GGI locomotives.
Then there was my first ride on the P&W (now SEPTA #100) on a Strafford car to 69th St. and a Bullet on the way back to Norristown. That Bullet car seems to do 100 MPH. The motorman collected the fares and 'rang them up' on a system that had a pole throughout the car and at each end. He pointed the pointer by turning the pole to the correct money amount on the scale and "rang" up the fare.
We had friends who lived in Paoli, and I would be able to watch the mainline and MP54's as they made Paoli their stop. The first time I witnessed the passing of the BROADWAY LTD, didn't realize the significance until I read about it in TRAINS Magazine. Oh, David P. Morgan, thanks for all the memories. I waited each month for a new issue of Trains magazine, using 1/8 of my monthly allowance (50 cents)to purchase it at the News Agency in Lansdale.
Well, the old RDG MU's and diesel hauled trains gave way to Silverliners and RDC's. The steel equipment on the MKT-FKD gave way to the Budd M3 cars. The Nearsides and 8000's gave way to buses and PCC's.
In December 1966, the PSTC (Red Arrow) eliminated rail service to Ardmore. I was able to ride the line several times before abandonment. There was serious talk about abandoning the Media and Sharon Hill lines. Quite a few afternoons after school was spent riding both lines.
I did miss riding the #6 Willow Grove when it ended in 1958, but in 1967, the year before SEPTA took over the PTC, there were still 13 streetcar lines operating in Philadelphia, with just under 500 PCC cars in service.
The great Pennsylvania Railroad gave way to PC, then the GGI's were gone! Amtrak was born. The passenger train was never quite the same after that.
Oh, there are many events that I missed, but I'm really glad I was able to experience what I did - growing up in the 1950's and 1960's.
Jim K.
Chicago
a Cub Scout field trip to the B&O RR Museum. riding PCC's on the Cabin John Line into downtown DC. discovering the L in Chicago when visiting my grandfather--
AND the IC Electric and South Shore!!!
riding REAL passenger trains. And the bummers--last day of trolley service in DC 1962, final run of CNSM in jan 62, last run of Myrtle 1969. But first Metroliner Jan 69. And living in NY in late 60's R1-9's R10's BMT Standards, and R32's (THE BEST non AC cars ever)
>>> I am interested, in the subway fans of the past, what were your experiences, as young kids riding in a subway in the 50's <<<
The major differences:
1. Determining what train was approaching by the signal lights on the front. (Announcements?? We didn't need no stinkin' announcements.)
2. When at the rail fan window, having to cup your hands around your eyes against the glass to block out the light within the car to be able to see anything ahead of the train. And what you saw was the a little reflective light from the rails, and sometimes a lantern waving ahead. When trains slowed down for track workers, none of them wearing reflective vests, you would see them pressed into cutouts in tunnel walls or standing between pillars between the tracks, by the light spilling out of the train windows. It seemed like all track work was done while trains were running. I do not remember any time that service was suspended for maintenance.
3. Watching the conductors operating from their perches between the cars where they made an impressive picture leaning out to look up and down the platform.
4. The sounds of the trains running through the tunnels (and passing each other) with all the windows and storm doors between cars open.
5. On crowded trains riding between cars, one foot on each car holding onto the handles on each car and imagining what fun it must be to be a conductor.
6. When doing serious railfanning, being able to buy hot dogs, pizza, soda, candy and gum right in the stations.
Tom
Gosh, talk about bringing back memories!!!!
I remember making an excursion out of going to 14th St. on the Lexington IRT as the arcade in the station had what I felt were the best pretzels!!!
I did post a long time ago my impressions of the Flushing line when my friends and I (form Fordham int he Bronx) discovered it. It was like a foreign country, with the "different" trains (i.e. R12/14/15's), they eveh had a different color dirt on them -- brown instead of sooty black. And those weird "loop" thinies (the Identra hoops) on the front of the trains....)
Oh, and remember those (seemingly) HUGE) fans in the older cars. I always compare them to the props on Lockheed Electra turbo-props with thos big squared end blades!
Looking out the front window taught me the stations, lineups, diverging areas, curves and the like. When I "broke in" for the road, it made my new job that much easier. Today because of transverse cabs on many lines (and more to come), aspiring young train operators can't get that introduction to the road.
I'd have to say it was more exciting back then. Speeds were higher, with the CPW , Lexington, and Broadway-7th Ave. express dashes being tops, and every car had a railfan window. Much of the prewar equipment was still around. The fare was 20 cents in the late 60s and the dime-sized token was still being used.
Prior to Chrystie St., the R-27/30s and R-32s ran exclusively on the BMT Southern Division, and to this day I still associate these cars with the BMT. The R-32s remain synonimous with the N to me even though they've run on virtually every IND/BMT route over the course of their careers, and of course the R-10s are forever linked to the A.
Going to high school from 1976 - 1980, I never missed the chance to go home via Coney Island ... F from Church Ave to Stillwell, M from Stillwell to Kings Highway, B5 bus home. Loved the Arnines (R)(C) 2002 Selkirk All Rights Reserved Etc Etc Etc) ... I remember a set of Arnines on the D heading towards Manhattan that couldn't get above 15 mph because of blown motors and knew we'd never make it over the Manny B ... at Atlantic Ave, we were discharged. Equipment was in such bad shape that if it could run, even at 5mph, it ran. The Brighton Express used to rock and roll when the track wasn't welded.
--Mark
Back in the 60’s I became more interested in the subway as it was my means of transportation to and from the World’s Fair. I love riding the super express (no extra fare!) from Times Square to the fair grounds.
When my family moved to a co-op, we were within walking distance to the East Broadway. No more riding the Fifth Ave Coach from Avenue D to Union Square (two fare zone). My goal was to ride each line and to do so from a rail fan window. As I rode every possible line, I marked off on my well-worn map the portal of the tunnels (never made it to the Brooklyn-Queens Cross-town line)
The mid 60’s was an era when the newest cars on the IND were the R10’s. The BMT just finish receiving the last of the R32a. I got to ride the AB and D types on the southern division of the BMT. The eastern division had the Q, AB, and R16. The Lo-V still ruled Third Ave up in the Bronx. On the mainline the IRT just ran everything together, except the GE were kept together as well as the Westinghouse. The guys who made up the trains on the IRT never put an R12/R14 at the conductor’s position.
To my surprise, I met other railfans while riding up front. And in some location seen them with cameras photographing my train out in the open. I met one railfan from Flushing and we hang out together. He had a camera, which got me interested in photography as a means of recording time and places. Another railfan (Bill Rapelye) later became my best man at my wedding.
The big change came about when I learn there is an organized group of subway fans that belong to a dues paying club. This club also charter trains on the subway for their “Inspection” trips. They used unusual equipment on unusual tracks. This group had an office at 145 Greenwich Street, which was a one bus ride from my co-op. They publish a magazine not only about New York, but also on the rest of the USA and the world. They also have one of the largest collections of books on electric railway. That group was the Electric Railroaders Association. Hugh A Dunne was always there, encouraging membership, and with Herman Rinke, answering questions about the ERA
But wait, there’s more. The ERA had a division (or chapter) devoted just to NYC. They have monthly get together, and also charter trains for trips. From this NY Division, I met Doug Grotjahn who served in the US Army in Germany and answered my questions about the US military, Steve Zabel, who works in a photo shop and has not started to shot color slides but has great flash photos. Joe Testagose, who brought my slides for his collection. The late Roger Arcara, a noted historian on the NYW&B and assistant editor of Railroad Magazine. Gary Grahl, a soft-spoken person who also interview me for membership in the national ERA. Al Hancock, who suggested I be on the NY Division entertainment committee (my one and only NY Division show was in May 72). My mentor in the ERA and railfan clubs was the late Gerald H Landau. He took me to places around the city, to yards, best photo spots, eating-places, and meetings (there’s always some railroad club meeting in the NY area each weekend).
So that’s my take on being a teenage railfan in the 60’s.
My most vivid memory was hanging out at the 81st Street station on the 8th Ave. IND (or 72nd Street -- home station for my Aunt Hilda who rode the subway everywhere her whole life -- into her 80s). These are "upstairs/downstairs" stations, where the local is on the west side and express on the east side on both levels.
The best place to be in the 60's was on the lower level platform during rush hour. R1-9s ruled, and the noise was DEAFENING when two locals came screeching to a stop simultaneously with two expresses roaring through.
81st St. uptown was the place to be for me. The R-10s would be in full flight as they bore down on that station, and as they thundered past on the A, you got an earful. Of course, it was even more fun to be ON an A train as it ripped past 81st St.
As stated earlier in this thread, Motorman sometimes operated with the cab door open and on one occassion in the late Sixties an 8 year old Black kid from the projects of Brooklyn was allowed to operate the controller of a #1 local from 59th Street to 66th Street Lincoln Center. Talk about making a kids year. Also as previouly stated in this post numerous times, the trains were much faster in the 60`s and 70`s when the motors were all operating. And last but not least the railfan window. I used to make believe the storm door handle was the controller and try to sycronize my movements with the motormans. As Archie Bunker would say " Those were the days "
Which is the best for just plain pleasure?
SEPTA Route 13 Chester Avenue to Yeadon and through-routed to Darby. What a great line! Lots of service, short-routed cars. Subway-surface, old (and gritty) neighborhoods, curved tree-lined streets, Mr. Moriah Loop, one-way street running in Darby. That's also my older daughter's favorite, so it must be good! :")
Honorable mention: 101 Media. Anyone else know a line (U.S. or not) that has a single-track stub end terminal in the middle of a public street (and isn't a tourist operation)?
I think my favorite LRV ride is also a SEPTA route, the Route 100 from 69th street to Norristown. I love the ADTranz N5 cars, and the scenery is fantastic. I goes through wooded areas over a lot of its route, and approaching Norristown it crosses teh Schuylkill River on a high bridge with beautiful views.
I also like riding Salt Lake City's Trax light rail. The views of the surrounding mountains from the trains is something else. And I should include the St. Louis MetroLink crossing the Mississippi, and the Dallas DART line that crosses some wetlands on a very long viaduct south of downtown.
Mark
When I lived in Philadelphia I used to ride Route 11 all the time from my home on 72nd and Woodland Ave. I also rode the 36, but my favorite was the 11.
My favourite is Toronto's 506 Carlton Car line.
That's a beautiful picture. What makes the line special for you?
That picture is actually taken from this website, nycsubway.org. I took many photos myself, of both CLRV's and PCC's, but I don't know how to post them here.
The reason the line is special to me is because the first time I visited Toronto, in 1980, I stayed at the Carlton Inn, which was on Carlton Street just east of Yonge. Of course, in 1980, 99% of the cars running were the PCC's. I enjoyed the 506 Carlton line more than my second favourite, the 501 Queen, because it never got as crowded as the 501. The reason I say "enjoyed" is because I haven't had a chance to get up to Toronto since 1995. I hope to get up there this fall. I'll also be able to get my fix of Harvey's Hamburgers.
The comment by 5301 Fishbowl about the Carleton Inn brought back some memories. This was the trolley fan's headquarters back around 1980 and was cheap (about $29 Canadian, IIRC). Stayed there during the 1980 NRHS convention, which featured a fantrip with 3 generations of Toronto cars : Peter Witt, PCC and LRV. What a trolley town Toronto was - and still is!
Those last days of the three generations in Toronto were great. The first time I actually rode on a Peter Witt car was street running, in the city on Tour Tram service in the late 1980s shortly before they were sent back to Halton ('another free streetcar restoration, courtesy TTC') when there were still plenty of PCCs, the CLRVs and a few ALRVs were just showing up.
But - the TTC is spending a fortune restoring Peter Witt 2766, which has been out of action for years because the body was toast although it was covered up with some new paint to hide it in the early 1990s. The notable exception to that would be the September 6 parade for the TTC's 80th birthday where it ran around for a couple of hours before returning to Hillcrest to undergo restoration. The most recent pictures of the restoration that I've seen show the car completely gutted, a new frame built from the inside out and they were about half way through riveting on all the new steel body pannels. They're basically building a brand new streetcar. I can't wait to see it when they're finished - things have certainly come far since 1999.
-Robert King
I'll also be able to get my fix of Harvey's Hamburgers.
I'll get mine the end of July, barring anything unforseen... not sure yet where we are headed, but Harvey's will definitely be part of the local scenery. Hopefully something of importance, rail-wise, will be too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Which Trolley line in Philly is the best ride? Which goes through the least amount of ghetto? Ive only been on the 11 Woodland Av line, and it went through some pretty heavy ghetto.
All the "green line" trolleys (10, 11, 13, 34, and 36) go through some very blighted neighborhoods, but if you're worried about your safety, I think you're okay in the daytime and as long as you stay on the trolley if the neighborhood looks unsafe. I can't say as I've ever heard of violent crimes taking place on the trolleys themselves.
As for suburban light rail, SEPTAs route 100 doesn't go through any really blighted areas, in fact it runs through some pretty swanky real estate. (Though I have heard there are some rough areas in Norristown around the terminal.) I'm not sure about routes 101 and 102, as I've never ridden them, so someone else will have to fill in the gaps in my knowledge.
Mark
One of my favorite LRV rides is the Baltimore system, particularly where the line goes up and over the Amtrak main in a tight "S" curve, and then south of downtown, where it crosses over a waterway on a high, humped trestle that resembles a roller coaster.
In Toronto, the 506 Carleton is indeed a nice route, with a very scenic loop at its western terminus in High Park.
As for West Philadelphia, there are a few spots that seem safer than the rest, such as the area near the subway portal at 40th and Woodland, and the outer end of Route 36 on Elmwood Avenue and Island Road.
By the way, does anyone remember as I do when the Route 62 shuttle ran between Yeadon and Darby? By the time this line was made an extension of Route 13 in 1971, it was said to have been the shortest trolley line in the world (not counting museums), at about 3/4 of a mile end-to-end. It was served by a single PCC (often car 2632) and pretty much ran rush hours only.
A little-known fact about the 62 line was that the borough of Yeadon required some sort of permit for car operation on the line, dating back to some franchise stipulation way back when. There were apparently only 2 8000-series cars that carried such and, when they were retired, 2 PCC's took their places. I'm not sure what happened to change this (maybe the closure of the 62?).
I'm not sure what happened to change this (maybe the closure of the 62?).
But it wasn't really closed, just absorbed into the 13. I don't think that would change the franchise.
The New Orleans St. Charles line is a good line. I've been on it only once, about 8 years ago, and the operator in my car apparently was not experienced. He kept popping the canopy breaker by running the controller to parallel with a full load of people. His mode of acceleration was: jerk controller to parallel (breaker almost immediately pops), reset breaker, repeat. Each time he did this the car lurched a little faster. It was all I could do to not run to the front of the car to show him how to operate it smoothly....
ROFL!
I love the St. Charles line, too. There are even a few pictures of it on my Web site.
Mvh Tim
I really like the St. Charles line. Work is also progressing on the Canal St line to replace the busses that replaced the original trolly line. I was there back in February and they had barricades all along the center median (the old bus lanes) working on the new tracks. New Orleans will really have a nice little system with the St Charles line, the new Canal St line, and the riverfront line. New Orleans is one city thet REALLY need good public transportation though!
WHen I was there a few years back, the busses were still in the center median. We walked Canal St going to Bourbon Street. That was easy, however there was no way we could walk back! And don't even think about a car! When it was time to go back to the hotel we literally "crawled" up Bourbon St to Canal to catch the bus. (My hotel was at the other end of Canal St. Not one person waiting for the bus could stand to wait. Everyone was just basically lying in the bus shed. The future trolly on Canal street will be handling a lot of "drunks".
The future trolly on Canal street will be handling a lot of "drunks".
Haven't you ever boarded the St. Charles line at Canal and Carondelet at about 2 a.m. or so? If you have, you know that handling a lot of drunks is nothing new to the streetcars in New Orleans! :-)
Mvh Tim
That's for sure! The amazing thing is that it's not just at Mardis Gras. Of course it's worse then, but it's basically a year round thing. IT's a great city though....even though much of it's economy is fueled by eating and drinking. NEw York has some great food, but what I wouldn't do for a "poor boy" sandwich right now in New Orleans! From most of the places I'd been, I have to say that New Orleans has some of the best food. Let's see, heaven equals eating New Orleans food on the old St Charles trolly.....maybe add looking forward to a night on Bourbon Street after the trolly ride.
In a party town like New Orleans, that's a very good thing: we don't want the revelers drving! Is a fourth streetcar line still coming? The route 82 bus on Desire Street was going to be converted back into a streetcar line in the next few years. Then we could ride the Streetcar Named Desire once again. I don't know if the project is still on, though.
New Orleans needs better airport transportation, too. I rode from the airport to downtown, and it was aroudn 9 or 10 at night. I had to change buses in a seedy part of New Orleans. I didn't feel unsafe, because there were lots of people waiting at the same bus stop. But something better is needed. I've read about proposals for a light rail line to the airport, but I don't know any details. Anyone else know anything?
Mark
I agree, New Orleans needs a rail airport access even worse than NY does. It's quite a treck to the airport from downtown New Orleans, even if you take an airport service.
I also heard something about New Orleans' proposed "Streetcar named Desire" route, but don't know when or if work will begin. Anyone know when the Canal St line will be finished?
Visit New Orleans RTA website, and they have a big link to information Canal Street project on the main page. It gives 2003 as a completion date for construction, but I couldn't find when service will begin. They used to have information on the Desire Street project on their old site, but I couldn't find anything on the revamped site.
Mark
I rode on it back in 1994. On the return trip back to Carrollton, we had a very informative motorman who gave a brief description for each of the many large homes along St. Charles Ave. He kept emphasizing that "these are all single-family homes". Coasting is a common practice. They'll notch the controller up, then cut power, over avd over again.
My favorite trolley ride would have to be rt 13 the line goes thru many different kinds of neighborhoods. Also the line becomes very curvatiuos starting from 60th & Chester westward. It would be nice to have an artic LRV on that particular line especially w/all the sharp turns, but I won't hold my breath for that!!! Also, during the am & pm loadlines you see alot of trolley traffic and all of finished cars are routed thru Darby after the pm loadline. Darby in the early evening during is a good place to do alot of trolley watching w/finished 13 trolleys and regular Rt 11 all the same time. You even get a couple dewirements @ that spot, because the special work (Overhead) is in need of replacement.
Light Rail Chic ;-)
I love to ride rte. 13 , also. You are so right about all the curves and turns that make it so much fun!
Chuck
I think route 13 needs articulated LRVs not just because of the turns but because of the sheer crowding on the route during rush hour. I've had to let one, sometimes two trolleys pass before one with room for me to stand comes along.
Mark
I didn't realize the 13 was so crowded during rush hours. Your idea about Artics bears some thinking by SEPTA.
Did your ever run an LRV? I did at open house at SEPTA Elmwood many years ago. They let us run it on trial track . I was in 7th heaven!
Chuck Greene
Chuck
SEPTA had tried 2-car trains of K-cars a couple of times in the past on some 13 runs but nothing came of it. With the original plans for the Girard Ave line, SEPTA was going to purchase a dozen low-floor articulated cars which would go to 13 and displace 15 or so K's for the revitalized 15. The small order carried a huge price tag, and the result was that 15 will get rehabbed PCC's.
How do you find out about these open houses? I'd love to get a chance to drive a trolley at an event like that. Yes, the 13 is really crowded during the morning and evening rush hours. I've ridden in the stairwell, propped up by my elbows on the dashboard of the vehicle before. My job is pretty flexible, so now I just go to work really early and leave really early to miss the rush. Not everyone can do that, though so articulated LRVs are really needed. Too bad the plan to get them didn't work out. If I recall correctly, SEPTA had wanted to share a large order with another city to get a better price, but couldn't find a partner transit agency.
Mark
It's been a long time since the last open house. I would say contact SEPTA somehow and ask if another one is to be held. I'd love to drive again! At the same time Elmwood was open, they had Woodland shop open to show us how they repair the LRV's and repaint them.
I had a great time that day. I just can't remember the year it was held. That's what happens when you reach my age (60) , you lose your mind.
See you some day,
Chuck Greene
Sounds like you're talking about Trolleyfest. SEPTA had them in 92, 93 and 94. As I recall 92 and 93 were pretty extensive, with cars all over the system (PCC's in and out of the subway and diversion and Peter Witt 8534 running on the Center City portion of 23). I took my dad on a ride on 8534 and he really enjoyed it after all the years he rode on these (incidentally, these were the 'new' cars to him since the lines he rode featured Nearsides or Hog Islands). The 94 version was confined to Elmwood yard, where you probably 'piloted' a K car, and I recall PCC jaunts from there down Island Ave. Unfortunately SEPTA has not had one since.
I like artics. I enjoy the ones on HBLR. This type was called "two rooms and a bath" in the long long ago. :)
But I enjoy riding a non-articulated car around a sharp curve with the front and back ends swinging out. Never get that kind of motion on a bus.
I like the TTC's 504 King line. :)
Actually, what I like about that line is the long, slow run beneath the railway tracks at Atlantic Ave. or to get on at Yonge St. downtown, among the bank towers and ride eastbound, up Broadview Ave. by the park and look southwest across the Don Valley to the skyscrapers downtown where you start out from.
-Robert King
504 King goes on the Danforth bridge, right? You know, the one where the Bloor-Danforth subway runs on the lower deck? The B-D has a pretty cool view there. :)
I've been on 506 Broadview, and 510(?) Spadina. The Spadina car's stop at Chinatown (Dundas-Spadina, correct?) was pretty cool. And the fact that it runs on Spadina on a sort of a private ROW is an extra bonus.
-J!
No streetcars go over that bridge; the tracks were removed within one or two years of the Bloor-Danforth subway opening. The King streetcar runs up Broadview and you can see the Bloor St. bridge (and subway trains crossing on the lower level) from it and the streetcar tracks cross Bloor St. to enter Broadview station, but that's it.
506 is Carlton and 510 is Spadina, both of which are very nice lines as well. For about a year back in the 1980s, they ran PCCs and only PCCs on Carlton and Carlton's a nice long line too, so it was excellent for riding then...
-Robert King
510 Spadina, honestly, probably wins the best scenery award. The harbourfront coupled with ethnic districts and then the distict circle and into the ultramodern underground loop makes it a pretty cool ride. I've been on the whole thing once, but didn't go through the Charlotte Loop. Shame...
Have you heard anything about the Sheppard Subway? I heard it was going to open soon, but that's it. Can you fill me in on what is going on with the middle platform at Yonge Station on the Sheppard Line? I saw it on the Transit Toronto site, but I didn't see any info on its purpose.
-John!
P.S. Have you been on Calgary's, Edmonton's or Vancouver's LRTs or Skytrains?
What's the point of the Sheppard line? Is there some sort of big business center along the route?
Yes. Sheppard-Yonge is becoming sort of a second downtown. However, I've heard that for the line to be most effective it should extend eastward to Scarborough.
Mark
And west to Downsview with an intermediate stop at Bathurst, to provide a rapid transit link between the Spadina and Yonge lines north of downtown. Above Bloor St. you can only get between those two lines using slow buses or the St. Clair streetcar which is faster but isn't really north enough considering how far up the subway lines go. An extension of the Spadina subway up to York University and Steeles is another subway project that needs to be constructed; it and the Sheppard connection to Downsview both go together very well from a functionality perspective.
-Robert King
I was at York University last summer for a conference. A subway extension there would have been really convenient. I've heard ideas of it tossed around. Any chance of it happening?
Mark
Sheppard's opening has been delayed until November because some of the stations aren't quite ready and they want to do extremely extensive testing of all the communications and systems as well which has been a strain on the limited number of employees the TTC has with those skills right now because of the new transit control centre (the David Gunn building) being set up at the same time. That said, the line is 'functional', test trains have been running for some months now and David Collenette went for a little ride last week along with other politicians and the press. Naturally, no funding announcements were made, of course.
With respect to the centre platform, it's purpose isn't immediate. Right now, Sheppard is the end of the line. Trains will roll into the westbound (north side of the station) platform, discharge passengers, enter the tailtrack where the driver and guard will change ends. Then, it will pull out of the tail track and enter the eastbound platform (southern side of the station) where passengers will board and ride east. The centre platform isn't going to be used - yet. When the line is extended west to Downsview, Sheppard obviously won't be the last station on the line and trains will be passing through the station in both directions. This is where the centre platform comes into use - clearly there will be large numbers of people changing lines at Sheppard & Yonge when that is constructed. So the side platforms will be used by people boarding trains and the centre platform between the eastbound and westbound platforms will be used by people getting off, making the whole transfer process more efficient and reducing dwell times. It's an adaptation of the current setup at Kennedy on the Scarborough RT. Maybe you should suggest to James Bow that he explain it...
I've been to Calgary and Edmonton but never been on the LRT lines because other things prevented me from riding on them. I did get to ride the Sky Train in Vancouver but I really regret not taking a ride on the electric buses there and in Seattle. At the time, family trips aren't really conductive to railfanning - I really had to sell the ride on the Sky Train on the basis of the views from the elevated ride and the bridge.
-Robert King
Being fron Philly, I got spoiled on a lot of trolley runs like the 23, and the 36(with the PRW on Island Ave.) and the suburban 100/101/and 102. Outside of Philly, my favorite Trrolley/LRV run is a tie between the Baltimore Central Light Rail line and the NJT Newark City Subway(when the PCC's were in service.)
Being fron Philly, I got spoiled on a lot of trolley runs like the 23, and the 36(with the PRW on Island Ave.) and the suburban 100/101/and 102. Outside of Philly, my favorite Trrolley/LRV run is a tie between the Baltimore Central Light Rail line and the NJT Newark City Subway(when the PCC's were in service.)
I was always partial to SEPTA's Route 36 for a number of reasons (the Woodland Ave down-and-up hill, passing the Woodland barn, the speed from the 49th St curve down Grays Ave and Lindbergh Blvd, swaying to curve around the thru girder in the bridge over the B & O Railroad, the interesting run along Elmwood, capped off with the island on Island). I also liked 11 where it left Phila and marched up Main St in Darby with barely enough room between parked cars and opposing traffic, then banging across the B & O grade crossing, and swinging into Darby loop after coming down the hill into the business district.
In Toronto my favorite was the Bathurst line - a nice urban street-running line with that little piece of private R/W at the Exhibition. St Clair is also a favorite for similar reasons.
Is it just me, or is Darby kind of a dump (as far as suburbs go).
Last time i was in Darby was about 9 months ago, and it looked like hell.
Darby has definitely seen better days. A huge flood hit the borough several years ago, which I'm sure only made things worse. Thirty-some years ago when I first rode Route 11 to Darby Loop, there was still a thriving commercial area, complete with Woolworth's and other stores. And at one time, there was an honest-to-goodness trolley stop luncheonette at Darby Loop right where the Route 62 cars (and, long ago, Route 78 Birneys on the Darby-Lansdowne shuttle) pulled in.
Darby started its unfortunate slide in the mid-80's and hasn't recovered. Before then the 11's used to get caught in Main St traffic frequently, especially on the wide section just after the B & O crossing where angle parking is permitted on the outbound side - there were always cars jockeying in and out, and waiting to park, and the 11's would get held up all the time.
Before (well before) the rebuild on Island Avenue, the 36 line used to terminate (IIRC--was it called 88th & Eastwick)? at a loop in the middle of woods. That was the best!
88th & Eastwick it was! I remember the signs and the SEPTA map showing it.
Chuck
I think 88th & Eastwick existed on paper only but that's where the 36 turned until the new (current) loop was built. Even when the new loop went into service the PCC's still showed the '88-Eastwick' sign when going there.
I think 88th & Eastwick existed on paper only but that's where the 36 turned until the new (current) loop was built. Even when the new loop went into service the PCC's still showed the '88-Eastwick' sign when going there.
My impression was that service was cut all the way back to the Depot until the line on Island Avenue and the new loop were built.
I believe 88th and Eastwick was an interim terminus as the 36 line was cut back in stages from the former Route 37 Chester Short line after World War II. Until 1956, cars went as far as the Westinghouse plant (near Essington, I think) and I've seen a 1961 PTC map showing the Route 36 terminus as 94th and Eastwick (several blocks further into the woods than at 88th Street) By 1975 when the line was finally cut back to 80th Street, there were only perhaps three or four houses left on Eastwick, the rest having been bulldozed for an ill-fated urban renewal project that never materialized.
Yes. In the mid-70's, when the Eastwick redevelopment got going, the loop moved from 88th St to 80th St, with a small stub of the old westbound track remaining as a spur for a disabled car. The entire loop was rebuilt when Island Ave was reconfigured in the early 80's and Eastwick Ave was obliterated. Even then the PCC's with the old signs still put up the '88-Eastwick' indication when going that far. Of course, the PCC's didn't remain on the line too long after the new Eastwick loop was completed.
There is still talk of re-extending 36 to the proposed Eastwick Transit Center at 84th St (the R1/Airport line Eastwick station).
Hands down, I have to say Hong Kong's Tuen Mun to Yuen Long LRT. It switches from heavy urban to suburban to rural to suburban to heavy urban all along the same route. The Goninan-built trains are pretty reliable, and the stations have a nice touch.
A close second would be the Calgary LRT. From suburbia to downtown to grimy industrial neighbourhoods to big box stores to the tip of Calgary's far south...and that's just one route! The high graded river valley view on the Northeast Line is stunning too.
Third would be the Vancouver Skytrain, if that counts. (Well, they do call it an ALRV.) The elevated route does give a great view of the mountains, and the architecture on the Scott Road Bridge is wonderful. The EMUs are also funky, too.
So...
1. Hong Kong (Yuen Long-Tuen Mun)
2. Calgary (Both lines)
3. Vancouver (Expo Line)
I already mentioned New Orleans as one of my favorites, however I feel I need to add San Francisco also. I don't know if the Cable cars count as either trollies, but they are fun to ride. There's nothing quite like hanging off them on the running board, and hearing the little bells ring. The Market Street trolly line is also very nice, with a nice assortment of PCC's. I believe some of Newark's went there also. They are all painted up in other city's paint schemes which makes it vey interesting. They also have quite an assortment of Light Rail lines also, spreading quite far from the city's center. They even have electric busses. San Francisco is quite transit freindly.
To be really technical, cable cars are streetcars, but not trolleys. A trolley gets its name from the trolley pole by which it connects to an overhead powerline. Cable cars don't need overhead powerlines, so no trolley poles. But they're still great fun to ride!
I love San Francisco transit. I'm going to be visiting there once, maybe twice within the next twelve months, and I can't wait. I've ridden BART, the electric buses, and the cable cars, but I have yet to ride the old PCC and other trolleys, MUNI light rail, or CalTran.
Mark
I was only in San Francisco once, but it was one of my favorite places to go, for railfanning as well as the scenic beauty also. There is nothing like seeing the Golden Gate Bridge for the first time. It's probably my favorite bridge after the Brooklyn Bridge. Not that you can really compare the two. The bridges themselves, and the surroundings are so different.
The cable cars are so much fun to ride. Everyone loves them, you don't have to be railfan to enjoy the ride!
Michalovic....
Have you ever been on Philly's trackless trolleys? How are they? Do they run through decent neighborhoods?
I know there are 3 routes from Arrott Terminal, and two in South Philly (snyder and tasker-morris)
I used to ride the 59 every day. The machines themselves are, well, a little past their prime, but not so much that they're uncomfortable to ride. I think they're been in service for over 20 years, but I'm not sure.
Route 59 starts at Margaret-Orthodox station and goes north along Oxford Avenue, then Castor. The station area doesn't look pretty, but its safe in the daytime, and the neighborhood gets a lot nicer after about two blocks along the route.
Route 66 leaves Frankford Terminal and goes north along Frankford Avenue, which can be very quaint looking in some places. If you can only ride one, this would be the one to ride. There is also an express service, with its own power lines running in the inside lanes.
Route 75 goes from Margaret Orthodox to Wayne Avenue, but I've never ridden it, so I can't comment on the neighborhoods it goes though. There's also a trackless trolley that crosses South Philly, but I can't remember the number.
One more thing...because of the construction at Frankford Terminal, sometimes the power lines have to be turned off, and diesel buses have to be used on these routes, so check with SEPTA if you want to make sure and catch one.
Mark
I don't think that the 20 years of age is the real problem with the electric buses. The electric buses in Toronto went into service in 1947, were rebuilt in the early 1970s (recieving new bodies from Flyer but the mechanical equipment was kept and refurbed) and they were retired in 1992ish after the guts had seen over 40 years of use and two sets of bodies had worn/rusted out. The infrastructure was pretty much in need of replacement by then and the final abandonment of the last two electric bus routes resurrected with used Edmonton buses happened in 1993.
Septa could probably rebuild their Flyers which have more modern equipment in them than our Flyers did (as I mentioned, the equipment was taken from the old CCF buses and installed in the Flyer bodies) and get another 10 years of use out of them, at least.
-Robert King
The 29 (Tasker-Morris) and 79 (Snyder) go thru basic working-class neighborhoods for the most part. West of Broad on 29 is blighted in spots but 79 is pretty much a good ride end to end.
I rode 29 nearly from end to end every day to and from high school in the early 70's. I really liked the Brills on the line at the time. The AMG's (technically, not Flyers, although the design is the same) went into service starting in 79-80. Despite their age and use, they still seem to be good vehicles. Unfortunately, SEPTA maintains them, so the A/C doesn't work on all of them, but they are still gems (and, admittedly, SEPTA's electric vehicle maintainers are fairly top-notch). They could be cleaner on the inside, but this is more a testament to the habits of the riders than SEPTA's efforts.
At present 29 and 79 tend to operate diesels on weekends, although a trackless manages to sneak out of Southern Depot on a run now and then (allegedly operators get to pick what they want to run and most pick diesels), so your trip on a weekend might result in your seeing no TT's on either line. As mentioned, Frankford's TT's are out of service for the next 18 months while Frankford Terminal gets rebuilt. Some in this town wonder if they'll come back at all.
SEPTA's budget includes funding for replacement TT's - the number that gets kicked around is 60 (which would serve the current 5-route contingent with no room for expansion). There had been talk on and off about expanding TT service, namely conversion of 56 and 60, adding on the outer end of 53 to 75, and a 66 extension to Franklin Mills via Knights Road. A long-fantasized TT conversion was 5 or 50, which would have tied the Southern and Frankford systems. Neither 5 nor 50 exist in the same configuration today, but 57 could serve the same purpose.
The TT's in Philly were made in 1979, and they have way too many of them. I think i heard that SEPTA only uses 1/4-1/3 of the fleet in usual operations.
I have 2 of them, I'm definitely with ya on the 13, since I lived right by Chester Avenue...has anyone noticed the LRV's getting solid windows after thier overhauls? I rode 9059 a couple of weeks ago which had them. My other favorite ride has to be the TTC's 501, Queen Street East (outside of downtown) kinda reminds me of a fixed up Chester Avenue.
This thread has shown me that there are a lot of SEPTA trolley riders reading this board. I ride the 13 every day, as I live on Kingsessing just a block from Chester Avenue. I'm curious now as to how many other subtalkers I'm brushing elbows with when I wait for my lucky 13 at 13th Street every afternoon.
By the way, I also ride the 36 or 11 sometimes since they're only a block from my house, too.
Hello Michalovic,
Light Rail Chic here and I'm a frequent rider of the 13 and 34. I switch routes from time to time since I live right in btwn Baltimore and Chester Ave and sometimes I can't figure out which route to take.
Light Rail Chic ;-)
We're neighbors. In fact, my fiance lives between Baltimore and Chester. I take the 34 if I'm going straight to her house after work.
Mark
My hand is part-way up. I don't ride on a daily basis but I find myself on the subway-surface every so often between Center City and Penn. That gives me the excuses I need to ride.
I know what you mean. My adjunct position at Temple is my excuse to ride the Broad Street Subway once a week!
Mark
(Throws both hands up) Route 13, though it's about eight blocks from my house. If the 108 going to 69th St. is nowhere to be seen, I walk it down to Chester Avenue for the 13. Or, I'll take the 108 to Woodland Ave. for the 11. Sometimes to Elmwood for a 36, but they're running buses on the 36 due to some track work on Elmwood Avenue.
The 10 and 34, I rarely need anymore, though I lived half a block from either trolley in my youth (60th & Wharton, 1/2 blcok from Baltimore Avenue, later off Wynnewood Road & Lansdowne Avenue, 1/2 block from 63rd Street)
Routes 101 and 102... just for kicks.
The Snaefell Mountain Railway on the Isle of Man has to be one of the most spectacular trolley rides in the world. Attached is a picture from www.isle-of-man.com.
orange empire museum rides in peris california !!
Ok. There is only one answer to this question. Mattapan-Ashmont "high speed" on the MBTA in Boston. It has it all. Integration with the Redline Subway at Ashmont. Private ROW that is extremely scenic; sights include a graveyard and a river. Grade crossings. And of course, the star of the show: PCCs in revenue service. Not a nostalgia route. Not a new route to revitalize a failing buisness district. Just actual trolleys (no pantographs, just honest to god trolley poles) in actual revenue service, doing what they've been doing for the last 8 decades or so. (These particular PCCs are approx. 6 decades old. I believe they were delivered in 1940.) And, just recently, the return of "traction orange."
>>>"Ok. There is only one answer to this question. Mattapan-Ashmont "high speed" on the MBTA in Boston.<<<
I agree with you 1000% about the conduciveness of the Mattapan-Ashmont Line.
It is a "Trolley Line" on a private right of way. It has it all. But after the recent ABC Specials, Boston 24/7, how safe is it to visit Mattapan TODAY? They portrayed it as a depressing high crime area. I'm not into knocking anybodys 'hood, but?
Sparky
They push drugs down in Mattapan. Don't wear an Yankee cap down there. Don't hang about Mattapan too long like a tourist. If you're going to walk around, walk purposefully. If you are going to take photographs, use a disposable camera and be discreet about it.
Ashmont is OK. I considered living there at one point, due to the cheap rents. There was a flurry of rapes during last December, but I think the guy's been caught.
ASEM7
Mattapan certainly has its problems. The Youth Violence Task Force has done a reasonably good job of pressuring some of the gangs off the street and disarming them.
You can wear a Yankee cap anywhere in the Boston Metro. As for Mattapan, just use street smarts (don't make eye contact, stay out of alleys at night, etc), and you'll be fine. -Nick
Guys,
Thanks for the responses. Last time, I was there was 15 years past.
It is a unique operation, a 12" to 1' Model Trolley Line. I tend not
to do neighborhood sterotyping. Usually bypass beantown on my annual
visit to Seashore.
:-) Sparky
Actually, not making eye contact is often taken as a sign of disrespect. When walking in a less than comfortable neighborhood, one should project an image of comfort. Don't switch your briefcase or purse to the other hand just because someone walks in your direction. If someone faces you, making eye contact that communicates "Hello, I'm here. You're cool. I'm cool." is far better than averting eye contact, which communicates weakness and unease.
This does not mean you have to look at everybody on the street. It means you don't avert looks and give yourself away.
In general, a lot depends on our social skills. If you lack them, you will tend to get into trouble.
Or go with some friends. But don't look like a tourist just because you have some buddies with you. I did the line with several others a couple of years ago on a Sunday & didn't have any problem.
BTW, same goes for some of "those" areas of NYC, e.g. the walk between Livonia & Junius can be scary if you're alone.
Mr rt__:^)
BTW, same goes for some of "those" areas of NYC, e.g. the walk between Livonia & Junius can be scary if you're alone.
I'm generally pretty fearless in the scariest of NYC neighborhoods. The one place I could not bring myself to walk alone was that footbridge. Fortunately, the day I was there the L was running as a shuttle bus along Livonia, so I didn't have to cross it (I just wanted to cross out of curiosity).
I've since been back twice, with others, and it wasn't bad at all. Granted, those were on weekday afternoons while the first time was a Sunday morning.
Is this Nick the same Nick as the one Jersey Mike met at some point down at Ashmont T stop? I said to Jersey Mike before he went to meet you that he shouldn't have arranged to meet someone random down in Ashmont/Mattapan -- I would have been a lot more comfortable with Harvard, for example, as a location for meeting someone new. (Unfortunately I couldn't go with Jersey Mike because I was meeting my girlfriend the same day.) Well as it turns out Nick was fine (I met him later, after they came back to Harvard) and we had a great time, but I'm still funny about going down to Mattapan unnecessarily. The one time I was there it was a weekday around lunchtime, and I went with a friend. Didn't feel particularly unsafe (in fact I felt less safe in North Quincy where all the Chinese kids were out kicking ball and banging them into cars in the pahking lot setting alarms off), but I felt OK in North Quincy simply because I had a reason to be there. Really the trick is that if you somehow trick yourself into believing that you have a reason to be there (e.g. visit to store, visit to a friend), then the "tourist" unease disappears and the would-be attackers would leave you alone, because they perceive you as one of "them".
AEM7
Yep, this is the same Nick that you met last Fall. I did meet Jersey Mike at Mattapan, however we told each other what we looked like, and also what we would be wearing. He saw me in my Yankees hat, and I saw Mike in his Wesleyan t-shirt. -Nick
I hope the days of subway cars with some color are not gone. Today it seems only the Redbirds are the ones with some color. I know in the 40's with the R-11's, and in the 60's with the R-32's and 38's had the "futuristic" look of stainless steel, but at least the doors were blue. All the other cars had color. It didn't matter if they were green, red or the all white look, they at least had color. Not until the late 70's with the R-44 and 46's did the stainless steel become the trend, but even then they had a blue stripe. In the 80's it all disapered. Is the TA ever going to bring a little color back. I say, bring the MTA colors back. Silver with the blue stripe. My favorite.
I miss the blue stripe on the LIRR also. Metro North's M's look so much better with the stripes. I wonder why they removed it from the LIRR's but kept it on Metro North's.
The R44-46's also looked nicer with the stripe.
As for the new trains, it is the new trend. Unfortunately stainless steal and no color are here to stay.
The LIRR M-1's looked their best when they had the blue stripe -- but after some cars had yellow ends added.
I always thought the LIRR stuff should have had a grey stripe with orange ends. :-)
The CTA has managed dress up some of their plain stainless steel cars with ad wraps.
(Photo from Chicago-L.org)
-- Ed Sachs
Ugh....Jesus....
Give me dirty olive drab any day.
Agreed, more "corporate logo feces" that we can do without.
Peace<
ANDEE
Years ago, the trains had LOTS of color ... and the TA spent a LOT of money to get rid of it. And people went to jail. :)
Yea, you could call it corporate graffiti too.
Peace,
ANDEE
AH, but if a CORPORATION does it, it's a good thing. Sorta the same principle that if you steal a loaf of bread from a bodega and get caught, you do 2-5 years. If you steal a billion dollars in a stock scam, you become Vice President. Works for me. :)
ROTFLMFAO.....
Peace,
ANDEE
Bell did a pilot train here last year. It didn't stick around for very long and I never got any pictures of it but one thing that didn't appeal to me was the way the six car adwrapped train was broken up after a short while and there were three trains, each with two cars somewhere in them that were wrapped while the others were normal. The fact that another train hasn't been done speaks for itself... Then again, there are very, very few adwraps anywhere on anything at the moment.
-Robert King
It's sort of like "legal grafitti"
heh...Sorta like legal ugly. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That makes good commercial sense. I like it.
It may may commercial sense, but aesethic(SP?) sense, I don't know.
Peace,
ANDEE
It may may commercial sense, but aesethic(SP?) sense, I don't know.
Yeh well sometimes it's best to say sod aesthetics - it'll only be vandalised - and make some $$$ whilst you do it!
Ugh, please! The last thing I want to see is some huge ad, benefiting some huge corporation, on the subway train I board. Aren't the Remy-Red vodka ads within the trains enough?? ;)
Ugh, please! The last thing I want to see is some huge ad, benefiting some huge corporation, on the subway train I board. Aren't the Remy-Red vodka ads within the trains enough?? ;)
It may be distasteful. It may benefit some dubious corporation. But it is money with which to make a better subway system, and true to the best American ideals, it benefits you and every other rider.
If it's SUCH a benefit then can someone please explain to me why the TA does away with ad panels in most of their station renovations.
Peace,
ANDEE
If it's SUCH a benefit then can someone please explain to me why the TA does away with ad panels in most of their station renovations.
Why did they put them up in the first place? In fact why bother with advertisments? Corporations seem to like to advertise their products. Therefore money is to be made from letting them advertise in your space. It may not be much money in Subway terms, but neither is your $1.50 fare. You just need enough of them to make it a worthwhile source of income.
If it's SUCH a benefit then can someone please explain to me why the TA does away with ad panels in most of their station renovations.
Why did they put them up in the first place? In fact why bother with advertisments? Corporations seem to like to advertise their products. Therefore money is to be made from letting them advertise in your space. It may not be much money in Subway terms, but neither is your $1.50 fare. You just need enough of them to make it a worthwhile source of income.
Yellow stripe all around!
Go back before the R10's though and there was an even worse lack of color to the cars - they were TUNNEL-colored - "unbuffed steel dust" I believe was the paint scheme ... aside from the glint of the tunnel bulbs off the windshield, you didn't know they were there (many didn't have headlights either) until you were under them. :)
didn't they have marker lights?
oh yea !! my main man !! SEE HOW UGLY THE R-142s are !!!
no color at all !!
bbbboooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnng!
The R-142 locomotive cars do have this odd red strip on either side of one of the doors.
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142-6416.jpg
Yeeeaaaah, much uglier than rust. But there should be some color on the trains. Maybe the TA should go back to a beltline on the trains, except maybe this time go with red or green rather than blue.
da rust would not have happened if the drian holes were kept clear !
& look at other railroads like this on in allensworth california !!
colors make railroads / commuter rails subways look beautiful !
lol !
I would put red stripes on all of the R-62s/R-62As and the R-142s/R-142As in honor of the "Redbirds". I would put blue strpies on the R-44s/R-46s. I would put yellow stripes on the R-68s/R-68As. I would put green stripes on the R-143s.
#3 West End Jeff
Each railroad has it's own "Candy Stripe" LIRR is Yellow, New York Central is Blue, Subways are blue, NHRR is red, etc.
Maybe they should paint blue stripes on all of the subway cars to relieve the monotony of the stainless steel.
#3 West End Jeff
Nuff said.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, Andee....I noticed the name change...very clever....heh, heh!
;-D
Piece,
Doug
Well I do have some color. The last two times I've been on the subway I've been wearing my "W" shirt. The shirt itself is black with a yellow circle that has a black "W" in the middle. I also wish to tell you that I have an amusing anomoly with the right side of my upper lip. When I raise my upper lip the right side of my upper lip tends to twitch as I'm raising it, and it also has the tendency to rise on its own accord when my lips are closed. That is due to a "harelip" where the muscles didn't develop properly, but the skin is intact. This is in addition to the minor cleft palate that I have. I happen to have a few strange physical anomolies.
#3 West End Jeff
BLAND BLAND BLAND
Please help me out. Can you reach forgotten-ny.com?
The data center says the server is fine, but I can't reach it, and it could be a local connectivity problem.
A yes or no answer (and your physical location--city) would help a lot. THANKS!
Paul,
No, I cannot reach it either. Location NYC,NY.
Peace,
ANDEE
Paul,
I am home now (Bronx) and am still getting timeouts, FYI.
Peace,
ANDEE
Just got in...at home...Bronx.
Peace,
ANDEE
I got in fine. Edison, NJ (using a Perth Amoby Dial-up number.)
I can't get into it (from NYC).
No can do, Paul. I'm in Downtown Brooklyn...
I got in w/o any problem.
Jersey City, NJ
I have to try it when I get home to the Bronx tonight.
At 3:06 PM I can still get to the site but I am having problems going deeper into the site (I can go down about 2 levels but after that nothing).
That implies that you're pulling up pages from your cache. I put the backup on a different server and IP (66.197.129.83), so you should start seeing it again soon. Yuo'll know it's the backup because you won't see the nice picture of BMTman and Heypaul(?).
>>Yuo'll know it's the backup because you won't see the nice picture of BMTman and Heypaul(?).<<
No pic of heypaul????!!!!
How ever will we survive? :-)
I'm getting a proper DNS lookup and a "connect to" but nothing happens. My bet is that the web server itself has crashed while the machine itself is still "alive" ... looks like it's his (ahem) "ISP" ...
Oh, dear.
Dunno where he's hosted but he's had a raft of troubles with that ISP of his and unfortunately "free sites" are a very low priority to ISP's, especially these days. Here's hoping they get the apache server kicked back into "hiya" mode soon ...
Uh ... he's got a different ISP since mid-April. (Cough, cough) I just switched forgotten to a different IP address on another server while I track this down. Should resolve shortly...
My theory of the server down's blown all to hell since there ARE some people that can get to it ... so it must be routing problems in the server farm itself or traffic balancing that's gone completely awry there ... if it'a affecting him, it's probably also affecting "paying customers" as well and once the whining begins, it'll get fixed. :)
I must be reaching the backup server because I get to the site, but it has the photo of the City Island tour.
---from Staten Island, Earthlink dialup via level3.net---
Earthlink must be caching the page on their servers ... from what I'm hearing the symptoms all conspire to suggest some might bad routing tables at the ISP ... if their "upstream" pipe is QWEST, then it all comes together ... Qwest does a nasty thing to their customer ISP's, they take packets, route them out to Qwest then back to the ISP and back and forth, billing for each packet. Sorta like the movie "The Producers" as far as the financials went. The Enron of Telecom ... and packets go into Qwest, never to be seen or heard from again. They did it to us for a few months ...
"paying customers"
What? Kevin's no cheapskate. :)
No offense intended, merely trying to illustrate the attitude of most ISP's in this Post-NASDAQ internet.Also explains folks who use free websites and then complain when nobody can see their photos. These be shrub times. Pay up, shriners. :)
AFAIK, forgotten new york has never been on a free server. Anyway, the main site is back now.
Yep, it's back from here as well. Didn't know Kevin moved to "software-arts" ... shows ya how little time I have for surfing lately. Between here and Harry's, that's about all the leisure surfing I have left in between finding trojan horses for our stuff to kill. While downloading nasties in one frame, I drop by here and there.
I see "Third rail" is over there as well. My guess is they had router troubles ...
The site looks fine to me. It's completely accessible from Edison, NJ.
Railroad.net still has trouble since last week. Here is what I get:
Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '8007000e'
[Microsoft][ODBC Microsoft Access Driver] Not enough space on temporary disk.
/default.asp, line 10
Anyone have any details?
Works for me. I'm in Beautiful Charm City, also known as Baltimore. The whole site came up fine.
What, I was down today? I wouldn't know. They don't let us have the web at the world's biggest store, they think we'd surf all day and they're RIGHT.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"They don't let us have the web at the world's biggest store"
Hey, you work at the world's biggest store? I worked there until 2000 in the advertising dept.
(I had my own internet connection there :-)
Success in Sterling Forest, NY.
--Mark
Sucess in LA.
At about 11:35 this morning I entered the Bowling Green station from the SI Ferry, intending to travel uptown. First I noticed when I entered the uptown platform was an empty R-142 6 train waiting on the downtown side with its doors closed, obviously waiting for the South Ferry Loop to clear. I thought that was odd, but then another R-142 6 train entered the uptown side and picked up the uptown passengers.
Is anything happening with the City Hall loop? Why the 6's at Bowling Green?
Usually this happens because of a blockage/malfunction preventing #6 trains from using the city hall loop.
It slows the line down tremendously.
multiple bie's this morning caused havoc on lex ave this morning Love it LOVE IT!!!
What caused the BiE's on Lexington?
- Lyle Goldman
Who knows? Maybe garbage on the tracks. Maybe people pulling the cord. Maybe the trip cock hit a rat running on the road bed.
Yeah, I can see the wonders that can do for scheduling, trying to squeeze non-revenue turnaround to places that they're not s'pposed to turn.
Doesn't the TA have a contingency schedule for any problems with the turnaround capability of City Hall, and are T/Os and C/Rs aware of this?
From the WCBS website (looking for any updates on the bus strike):
NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT SUBWAYS: NORMAL SERVICES RESUMED ON THE NUMBER 6 TRAIN FROM 14TH STREET TO BOWLING GREEN. EQUIPMENT PROBLEMS CLEARED.
Hmph. A train must've gotten stuck in the CH loop or something....
Thanks
More likely a problem in the station at Brooklyn Bridge. Otherwise, they'd have been able to keep the 6 normal from 14th to Canal.
>>Hmph. A train must've gotten stuck in the CH loop or something..<<
Heh, maybe one of the chandaliers fell on an R-142A.
Bill "Newkirk"
If one did, it would be no loss :o)
There was a breakdown in the loop. 6 trains were rerouted to Bowling Green and Brooklyn.
At about 11:35 this morning I entered the Bowling Green station from the SI Ferry, intending to travel uptown. First thing I noticed when I entered the uptown platform was an empty R-142 6 train waiting on the downtown side with its doors closed, obviously waiting for the South Ferry Loop to clear. I thought that was odd, but then another R-142 6 train entered the uptown side and picked up the uptown passengers.
Is anything happening with the City Hall loop? Why the 6's at Bowling Green?
I'm going to Boston in August, and I'm going to need a weekly subway pass. Can any sort of pass be purchased at South Station? MBTA's website lists some other red line stations as sales location, but as I'm taking the train to Boston, I'll have to get on the red line at South Station, and I'd just as soon save the price of one ride.
Mark
Yes, they are available at South Station.
Also Back Bay and North Station.
You can also order them by mail from the MBTA Web site
Last visit I got one at the tourist information booth in the Common, not far from the Park Street subway entrance. This may also be handy, depending on where you're staying.
MBTA practices revenue management on the subway. How? Tourist 7-day passes cost a different amount to the commuter 7-day passes. Commuter passes can only be bought at certain locations, whilst tourist passes could be bought at just about every corner store. Take your pick!
AEM7
Please be aware that the weekly combo pass is valid Sun through Sat. You would need two different ones to spend a weekend. The Tourist pass, while more money, starts the first day you use it.
I'll be in Boston the same week as Mark. Are there any restrictions to photographing transit in Boston?
You need a photo permit to legally take picutures on MBTA property. It can be obtained without charge by visiting 10 Park Plaza (8th floor, I believe) and go to the Marketing Department and ask for the woman who issues the permits. [She usually takes a late lunch, 2-3pm as I recall.]
No flash photography is permitted.
I have taken many pictures over the years, and am rarely bothered as long as I don't use a flash and point the camera at T personnel. The one time I was stopped, I actually had the permit :-)
Thanks, Todd.
Bob, We want proof that you did all the COLORS ! Hope you enjoy as much as the 3/4 Ton Crew did a couple of years ago.
Mr rt__:^)
Unfortunately, Mr t, my railfanning in Beantown will be severely limited, as I'm taking my wife, and she doesn't share my interest in trains and subways. We'll be taking the train to Boston, though, so all our transportation while there will be transit.
BTW, I priced the Acela Express vs conventional train (Acela Regional): PHL to BOS is just over 5 hours on AE vs just over 6 hours on AR and the price is double.
Yea, they have the price higher then it's worth !
BTW, when I did a family vacation some years ago in Beantown EYE picked a hotel at the end of the Green Line in Riverside. Told the wife it was very convient to the Mass Pike, which it was (no in Boston driving required) and that it was convient to mass transit, which it was (just a walk across the parking lot). Didn't tell her how far out side town it was or how much I was going to enjoy the ride. She figured it out, but it was too late by then.
Mr rt__:^)
This will be our first trip to Boston.
Some years ago my parents drove up (from South Jersey) for a vacation and the AAA travel consultant put them into a reasonably priced motel in Braintree and had them take the train into the city. They were quite pleased with the arrangement.
The 3/4 Ton Crew stayed at a Bed & Breakfest on Beacon at St. Mary's stop of the Green line. Price wasn't bad & it couldn't have been more convient.
An earlier thread debated whether or not LIRR trains double platformed. They do.
The Friday "Cannonball" (leaves Hunterspoint 4:06 pm) double platformed at every station starting with Westhampton. IIRC, it was an 8-car train (plus 2 engines) of double-deckers. Talking to frequent riders, they said double platforming only happens with outbound trains on Fridays during the summer. The return on Sunday had the standard "Only the forward X cars will platform at XXXXX station" announcement.
So now we know. It's real.
It's also an OFF-peak fare ($10.25 from NYC to Bridgehampton, DAMN cheap) 'cause the NYC end leaves at 3:58 or something. Well done, LIRR!
Wait, maybe the numbskulls will wake up and have the NYP train leave at 4:00 or 4:01.
It was done many years ago when they went to the peak/off-peak pricing with a NYP-Huntington Train. Moved it back from 3:59 to 4:01, therefore there is precedence for this type of thing. The RR could probably pick up another few hundred bucks each week the train runs.
Actually, the 4:01 Huntington and the 4:04 Babylon trains are still considered off-peak even though it's after the crossover line. The MTA isn't that cheap!
It's also an OFF-peak fare ($10.25 from NYC to Bridgehampton, DAMN cheap) 'cause the NYC end leaves at 3:58 or something. Well done, LIRR!
That is a bargain. Compare:
Penn to Bridgehampton (off peak) 95.9 miles $10.25
Penn to Bridgehampton (Peak) 95.9 miles $15.25
Penn to Philadelphia (Amtrak Unreserved Coach) ~90 miles $48.00
Of course you can do it cheaper SEPTA+NJT, but that's really the slow boat to China.
Here's my plan, put LIRR quality coaches on amtrak tracks hauled by powerful engines, make penn to philly 10 bucks and amtrak will make a heap of dough...HEY AMTRAK, PART OF THE REASON THAT YOU'RE LOSING MONEY IS BECAUSE YOUR RATES ARE >WAY< TOO EXPENSIVE! LOWER RATES, PEOPLE WILL RIDE! Instead of having core group paying high amounts, have LOTS of people paying low amounts and get possibly double what the core would pay...Vote Clayton for CEO :-P
Yeah, except for a few things that you are forgetting:
LIRR, NJT, and SEPTA service are all HEAVILY supported by revenue from several sources other than fares, such as bridge tolls, state, city, and federal tax dollars, and advertising. Some LIRR services cost the state as much as twice the fare the passenger pays, if not more. Amtrak service is funded three ways, federal tax dollars, fares, and where appropriate, state tax dollars. Amtrak is under twin (and conflicting) mandates-Provide service where the congresscritters say so, and make a profit. It EASILY costs more than $10 per person, even with a full 10-car train, to make the run from NY to Philly. The quality of the cars is not a factor. You can have hindu-seating cars, and still not make the money.
Amtrak is losing money for a variety of reasons. High fares is not one of them.
-Hank
The Queens DOT bus strike is in progress. I imagine alot of those riders are using the subway lines in Queens. Has crowding been severe today? As I said earlier, the 7 and E lines are probably going to get the brunt of displaced DOT bus riders.
Took the E, R and 4 this morning. My E train was at or was exceeding its capacity and the R was jammed pack, which I haven't seen before until this morning.
A little off topic, but for those of you who have been displaced by downtown QM1 Wall Street area express bus service, there is an alternative:
If you can get yourself to Hillside Avenue, the X68 offers AM and PM peak service to the Grand Central Terminal Area. The X68 makes stops along Hillside Avenue from the Nassau County line to Merrick Boulevard at key points. From Grand Central, use your handy transfer from your MetroCard and transfer for free to the X25 express bus, which will take you near the financial district with far less crowding.
Thanks,
Mark Valera
www.transitalk.org
If you have a regular (Pay-per-ride) MetroCard, it will deduct $3.00 per ride. It will allow express to subway transfer. If you transfer from subway to express bus with a regular card, it will deduct $1.50 (since you already paid $1.50 for the subway.) If you transfer from a local bus it will deduct an additional $1.50.
Express to exprfess transfer is free since you already paid $3.00.
For unlimited free express bus and subway riding buy the Express Bus Unlimited rtide card for $120.00 per moth from your station agent.This has the same 18 minute wait between same station use and is good for 30 days from first use with each day ending at midnight.
Very odd. I left my apartment this morning at 8:15 thinking that the strike was on, and that I would have to take the J from Woodhaven Blvd.
But, as I was approaching Woody, I saw two southbound Q11s. I assumed that this meant the strike was not on, but now I learn that it is. Were these Q11 drivers scabs? Management personnel?
Are other lines still rolling, or only the Q11?
Ferdinand Cesarano
The Queens Bus Strike thus far is only against 3 Companies, Jamaica
Bus; Queens Surface Transit & Triboro Coach. The Q11 on Woody Blvd
is served by Green Bus Lines. If I remember correctly, they are in a
different local and separate contract.
:-) Sparky
I thought this was SubTalk not BusTalk, just kiddin.
Maybe this should be TransitTalk. :-)
Tnat's a diferent server.
I thought this was SubTalk not BusTalk
Didn't you hear - the Tyres Union is also staging a strike - the buses are having to run on steel wheels as a result - it's the first grade crossing on the subway since the one at E105th St was eliminated!
Well, that explains it. I was thinking that all private lines were affected.
Ferdinand Cesarano
The Green line Buses were working as they should. The Tri-boro, Jamaica and Queens servive weren't. It confused alot of people today.
The reason is simple,though. The Green Lines is TWU, which is different union (at least I believe it's TWU)
Green Bus Lines is ATU. If it was TWU, it would not be running.
Which lines in the area are THRI?
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a copy of the GO that spelled out the end for the Myrtle Ave. Line in October of 1969? I'd appreciate any help.
There's a scan of a poster on Joe Korner's web site.
-- Ed Sachs
Dear Ed,
Thanks for the service change flyer about end of service on the Myrtle Ave. Line. I was hoping to see the official General Order issued by the Transit Authority concerning the end of service and also the two G.O.'s governing the two post abandonment excursions on the 4th and 5th of October '69. Maybe you can shed some light on this topic. Thanks in advance.
Sincerely,
Bob
Just a nitpik, in New York, elevated lines are called 'els'. In Chicago, the elevated system is called the 'L'.
-Hank
Not to be confused with the L line to Canarsie......
The discussion about forgotten-ny reminds me about the trouble I have been having lately reaching www.railroad.net. Anyone else having trouble accessing it? I sometimes get Microsoft DB errors from it, if I get any response at all.
I get the same "error" screen, on and off. Sometimes it gets through, but most of the time it doesn't. The site has been very slow lately.
I've noticed this problem since last week. What does the discussion of "forgotten-ny" have to do with this?
I didn't bring forgotten-ny up.
No relationship between the web sites, other than being rail related and both are/were having difficulty.
Forgotten-ny has been having quite a bit of trouble over the last few months. I believe he had switched servers.
Railroad.net has been quite slow since it has come back on line, but it has been much worse over the last week. And since Sunday, (I haven't logged in for more than a week before that) I have been getting the "error" message most of the time.
Railroad.net has been completely inaccessible even until now and it leaves us with this:
"Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '8007000e'
[Microsoft][ODBC Microsoft Access Driver] Not enough space on temporary disk.
/default.asp, line 5"
Did railroad.net switch servers?
URGENT!
Railroad.net has been completely removed from the Internet. I typed it in, and the Comet Web Search shows me that it could not find it. Has railroad.net ceased to exist or is it going through major changes? Anyone have any updates?
My browser still finds the server, but I also still get the Microsoft errors.
I've just visited the site today and I have noticed some changes on the site. On the top right corner are several links which provide information to the site's outages, but they don't work and only leave me with an unspecified error message.
I've noticed that there are now more forums than before and the layout has changed. There is now a PATH forum in the "Random Forum List".
There are three links on the left, the first heading with "Newark's Best Kept Secret: The City Subway", second with "Metro-North's Harlem Line" and the third with SD40 (?) I think it was.
You can enter into the forums but the individual topic links don't work.
The left three links work fine.
If anyone's interested in seeing a description and GREAT PHOTOS of the City Subway, visit this link on Railroad.net .
I've taken a look at the photos and I think they look superb.
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/
my new experemental transit website !!
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/
hope you like it !!!
I swow!
You take the purtiest train picture I've ever seen. :)
thankz !!
I just saw the interroir layout of the new Silverliner V and it is going to totally kick ass. It has half-width cabs and a railfan stormdoor and possibly a railfan seat. It also has a mix of 3-2 and wider 2-2 seating to give into demands made by those bitchy members of the DVRPA. Luckly the 2-2 seating is in the middle of each car and hopefully it will vector most passengers away from the railfan views. The 2 entrance doors are in the middle of the train, behind each truck due to new FRA regulations. Its a shame the MTA coudln't have come up with a good design for the M-7.
They had a story about the Silverliner Vs in today's Philly Metro paper.
Light Rail Chic ;-)
That's where I saw it.
Ooo, Any link to it? Also, any ideas what the proposed specs (weight, hp, acceleration, speed) are?
Mixing 3+2 with 2+2 was a cute idea. IMHO, the DVARP is more of a bunch of whining babies than a useful advocacy group. They also hate electrics, so they're on my sh*tlist anyway...
I don't think the move to 2-2 seating between the doors was totally a giving-in to DVARP. From previous things I've heard and seen there was always a desire for 2-2 in this area for circulation purposes. I agree that the 3-2 was an overblown issue especially considering that many DVARP members don't even use Regional Rail.
Does anyone know if Sbarro at 34th has had it's railfan window reinstated yet ? Last November the place was a building site. Before the building works started the view onto the platform made up for the quality of the Pizza.
Simon
Swindon UK
Sorry- the railfan window is gone. The site is becoming an elevator. The store is still open but reduced in size.
Very sad. I know it was like that last November. I was hoping that by now it may have reverted to it's former glory.
Simon
Swindon
Sure, I miss the view too, but ADA (AMericans with Disabilities Act) required elevators for the local platforms at the station. The only way elevators would fit is at Sbarro's. There is still an entrance to the store outside the fare control at platform level.
Does anybody have or know where to get a floorplan of an LIRR C3 Bi-level or the new M7 car? I spent some time looking, but was unable to locate anything. If these plans do not exist would anyone familliar with these layouts possibly draw a little diagram and scan it?
Mike, just curious, what are you doing with them? Are you trying to make models of both of them in HO scale?
I want to calculate their Railfan Rating.
Understood!
When will the R-142's arrive on the 4 Line?? That Line really needs those Trains.
Why does the 4 need these R142As?
The 4 is not getting any R142s.
I think to replace the redbirds that run on that line the 6 has almost all R-142A's now with a limited amount of R-62A's and a occasinal Redbird
I think to replace the redbirds that run on that line the 6 has almost all R-142A's now with a limited amount of R-62A's and a occasinal Redbird
I don't want them. At least we are getting R142As and not the R142s.
The 4 runs R62s and is the only line to do so. All other stainless steel cars on the IRT that were built in the 80s are R62As.
Because the 4 doesn't have enough R62s to cover all service. Only 325 R62s were built in 1983-84 and several of them were destroyed in two major accidents. That is why there are Redbirds on the 4 now, but they are old and need to be retired. R142As will replace them.
i think it will be 80 r142a subway cars
I am really looking forward to seeing a preview on what these new cars are going to look like. The two main things I'm wondering is:
Would the new Silverliner V's be compatible with the existing Silverliner IV's? For example, I've seen trains with a mixed consist of Silverliner II's, III's and IV's, and I'm wondering if the Silverliner V's could be mixed with the IV's, or if they're going to be operated completely separate from the other Silverliners, similar to the push-pull trains.
Also, what do you think the exterior of the new Silverliner V's will look like? Will they be designed to closely resemble and/or blend in with the existing Silverliner IV's, or since the doors will be more towards the center of the cars, will they take on more of a rapid transit (subway) train appearance???
There`s a sketch picture of it in today's issue of the METRO (the freebie rag distributed on SEPTA vehicles). The cars will have a rapid-transit look to them with the placement of the doors. I do not know if they will be compatible with the other Silverliners, but if they do that will be a big surprise.
I'm going to scan it in and post the pic at two sites:
1)At the TransiTALK MSN site (contact Trevor Logan for the URL)
2) At my Yahoo! site PHillyAreaTransit.
The url is : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PhillyAreaTransit/
These cars will be as unique as the NewFlyer buses!
is this going to be center doors with trap doors? that will be different.
I would venture to guess that the S V's will be operationally compatible with the older S's, just as all the current S's can be trained, etc. The big difference in door locations will probably make any regular intermingling of the fleet difficult. Keep in mind, though, that the S IV's will still be around and plentiful even when the V's put the II's and III's out to pasture, so there may be some combination of IV's and V's on some trains.
The V's will be similar to the Broad St B-IV's in that the single-cab cars will not be permanently connected to each other, so a single-unit V coupled to a single unit IV, for example, could be possible. What operational advantages this would offer, I don't know.
My guess is that the V's will go to the higher-profile lines, such as R1, 2, 5, and 7, and the IV's will pick up the slack on 3, 6 and 8 (where the older cars tend to roam now). Don't rule out any of the II's and III's being de-motored for continued service as coaches in the future.
I would venture to guess that the S V's will be operationally compatible with the older S's, just as all the current S's can be trained, etc. The big difference in door locations will probably make any regular intermingling of the fleet difficult. Keep in mind, though, that the S IV's will still be around and plentiful even when the V's put the II's and III's out to pasture, so there may be some combination of IV's and V's on some trains.
The V's will be similar to the Broad St B-IV's in that the single-cab cars will not be permanently connected to each other, so a single-unit V coupled to a single unit IV, for example, could be possible. What operational advantages this would offer, I don't know.
My guess is that the V's will go to the higher-profile lines, such as R1, 2, 5, and 7, and the IV's will pick up the slack on 3, 6 and 8 (where the older cars tend to roam now). Don't rule out any of the II's and III's being de-motored for continued service as coaches in the future.
Can anyone tell me in detail about the Chrystie Street Project? I don't understand why it was done and how has it affected the present day subway lines? Also, just beyond the Essex Street station of the J/M/Z one can see an abandoned tunnel that branches off to the right. I last rode the J back in 1987. During that time, the railheads in the tunnel were shiny so something must have been running through it. I don't think this tunnel is in revenue service so does anyone have any idea what is the tunnel used for? Thanx.
Can anyone tell me in detail about the Chrystie Street Project? I don't understand why it was done and how has it affected the present day subway lines?
As you probably know, the subway used to be three seperate systems: IRT, BMT, and IND. The BMT and IND used the same width trains but did not run on the same tracks. The part of the Chrystie ST connection in revenue use (when the Manhattan Bridge is open) allows the IND and BMT lines to intermix. All the lines in South Brooklyn were BMT lines, the Chrystie connection allowed the IND lines to access them. The F is the only line that does not use the connection to access a former BMT el (Culver Line). Before the Chrystie connection, service was similar as it is today with the Manhattan Bridge closed for repair. Notice how the 6th Ave line (IND) can not access all the els in Brooklyn (again the F doesn't need the Chrystie connection) The only way to get to these els is the Broadway line, similar to before Chrystie) In 2004 when the MB opens again service will revert to normal)
Also, just beyond the Essex Street station of the J/M/Z one can see an abandoned tunnel that branches off to the right. I last rode the J back in 1987. During that time, the railheads in the tunnel were shiny so something must have been running through it. I don't think this tunnel is in revenue service so does anyone have any idea what is the tunnel used for? Thanx.
That thunnel is the other part of the Chrystie St connection. It allows trains from the Williamsburg Bridge to ride to the 6th Ave line, and back. When the Chrystie St connection was first open the KK train used this and ran from 57th/6th Ave down 6th Ave to the Williamsburg bridge, and onto the Broadway el. The fiscal crisis and low ridership killed the train, and the connection has been out of revenue use since the mid 70's. I believe it may still be used for non-revenue runs (anyone know?). I believe that a service through the connection would work much better today. Alot of people transfer at Essex for the F during rush hours.
... the connection has been out of revenue use since the mid 70's. I believe it may still be used for non-revenue runs (anyone know?).
It has also seen the occasional emergency reroute - I rode through it unexpectedly about five years ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow, that must have been a nice surprise! Were you on 6th Ave and it wound up at Essex or were you riding the NAssau line and it wound up on 6th?
I boarded at Essex, expecting to go to Chambers (where I would have switched for the 4/5 to Bowling Green and the SI Ferry) and instead ended up going express to 34th. No announcements on the platform, although the conductor had apparently announced it to the train. Fortunately I was ending a day of railfanning and being a tourist anyway (having visited the Tenement Museum and then stopped off at Ratner's for supper, back when Ratner's was worth stopping at) so the additional time was irrelevant. Never did find out what the emergency was.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Work train uses it all the time to get to Linden Shops. I had a few work train going though it my self. The last one was the CRW train. The sucker keep on sliding on the rusted rails. There was a TSS who never opat. the CRW,behingd the control. He did not know the cut and did not know to keep it full power all the way though the cut to the muge to the F.
Robert
The Crystie Street connection was built, in large part, to eliminate the problem of BMT trains being heavily used in one direction and lightly used in the other. For instance, BMT Broadway Express trains ran to 57th/7th and then back to Brooklyn. Going to 57th/7th during morning rush, the trains were crowded; returning to Brooklyn, the trains were empty. Other BMT trains went no further than the Nassau and Centre Street Loops before going back to Brooklyn, barely even going into Manhattan. Chrystie St allowed BMT trains to run beyond lower Manhattan into midtown, and also from Manhattan into the Bronx, where on the return trips, they'd be just as heavily used into Manhattan. This had the effect (neagitve to some railfans) of dissolving the distinct IND/BMT routes and merging both divisions into one. While the connection between Essex St and Broadway Lafayette is not in revenue service, the portion off the Manhattan Bridge was quite heavily used until last July (and will be again after 2004) feeding the IND 6th Avenue trunk line. Chrystie St also helped, to some extent, alleviate some of the bottlenecks at DeKalb Avenue, allowing 4 tracks to send trains uptown rather than just two.
The connection to Essex St was used in the early - mid 80s by D trains when there was trackwork on the Manny B. D trains would leave Broadway Lafayette and run to Essex St, pick up a switchman, and proceed about 12 carlengths onto the Willie B, switch directions, drop the switchman back of a Essex St, and then run non-stop via Centre St and Nassau Street Loops to DeKalb Ave, resuming the normal route.
It was also used in 1998 by a Nostalgia Train to Canarsie.
--Mark
When the D train did this in the 80's when the trackwork was going on, did it use 75 foot cars or 60 foot cars? I'm not sure if the problem on the NAssau line is just because of the elevated portions of the Eastern Divsion, or if the Nassau subway also can not accomidate 75 foot cars. Can 75 foot cars run through the Nassau subway, if it doesn't invole the Willy B or east of the bridge?
I am aware of one or two transfers mistakenly sent from CIYD with R68's to pick/drop at ENYD. I believe they made it as far as the bridge and across. There was something in writing a while ago that due to a condition on the bridge (I don't know for sure what) 75 footers are prohibited from going to ENYD. Perhaps that curve on the Brooklyn approach. Ouch. That curve just before you enter Chambers St. from Fulton St. looks awfully tight.
The curve at Marcy Ave is definitely one of the problem areas. I'm not sure about the Chambers-Fulton curve.
I really don't remember what equipment was in use at this time, though I will speculate it was 60' equipment. When I was in college (until 1984) and experienced those re-routes firsthand, the R-68s weren't operating yet, and the R-44s/R-46s weren't assigned to the D line at that time.
--Mark
It had to have been 60-footers. When I rode the D in the 80's, I only remember R40's/40m's/42's being assigned to it.
Okay, so it finally makes sense to me now. But I have another question. There was a time when trains coming off the Manhattan Bridge changed ends at Chambers Street and went back to Brooklyn. I've been told that the reason why the J/M/Z trains have to negotiate the maze of switches in the tunnel was that the trackage to the bridge has been severed. Was this caused by the Chrystie Project and was it a positive or negative effect? Thanx.
The bridge leads from Chambers St. were indeed severed when the Chrystie St. connection opened. Prior to Chrystie St., Southern Division trains going to Chambers St. would either enter Manhattam via bridge and return to Brooklyn via tunnel, or vice versa. Typically they would deadhead over the bridge in either direction. In later years the only exception was the TT, which ran via tunnel in both directions.
So, in a way, the project makes sense. Otherwise, crowded trains coming off the bridge during the am rush would empty out at Chambers and Fulton Streets, then run light back into Brooklyn. To be productive, the train would have to change ends at Broad Street and backtrack to pick up the pm rush passengers, similar to the current Queens bound J train. Now it's finally starting to make sense. I find it interesting that the homeball aspect at Chambers for the Queens bound J is green over green because the surrounding trackage is not in service so the train has no choice but to take the diverging route.
That's not the only place; I don't remember if j1 track would cross over..forgot some designations; but IIRC if you took straight iron leaving Chambers you'd have gone to the Manhattan Bridge before Chrystie, for the Nassau Loop service. When I worked there it was just a storage track.So main route would have been via crossover. On the 6th and 8th Ave. local tracks south of West 4th the A [8th ave]tracks and B [6th ave] took bent iron to remain on their own routes and got Green Green. If you took a yellow bottom for diverging route you got straight iron..let's say an A train detoured to the Houston St. F line. Same applied northbound or southbound,IIRC. When a motorman was training, or new, it would be almost a shock from expected collision seeing a green bottom and another train dead ahead at least in some moves.
Also, just beyond the Essex Street station of the J/M/Z one can see an abandoned tunnel that branches off to the right. I last rode the J back in 1987. During that time, the railheads in the tunnel were shiny so something must have been running through it. I don't think this tunnel is in revenue service so does anyone have any idea what is the tunnel used for? Thanx.
When the North side of the bridge is open, sometimes there were emergency repairs that needed to be made(ie. a broken rail or cracked support beam). As a result, the B & D trains were re-routed in this manner:
The trains would switch to the southbound local track at W 4 ST. They would stop at Broadway-Laff. They would then switch to the Nassau line, ride part-way up the W'burgh Bridge and stop. The motorman would then switch ends, and the train would switch tracks from the W/burgh bound to the Essex St. bound tracks. It would then continue down the Nassau St. line, through the Montague St. funnel, 'till DeKalb. Normal service after that. If you're wondering about the Q, it was sent from 63St, & down Broadway to the Montague.
I hope this helps.
JDL
The intent of the Chrystie Street project was to provide additional capacity from BMT southern and eastern division and also to through-route trains between IND northern manhattan and the bronx and southern brooklyn by combining the D and Q lines and the B and T (now W) lines.
It was said that with the extra Manhattan capacity provided by Chrystie Street and the new 6th Avenue express tracks, 90 trains per hour would be able to operate through DeKalb each way, about 75 to midtown, vs. ~72 trains per hour, about 50 to midtown. Now fewer than 60 trains per hour go through DeKalb at peak times.
The tracks near Essex Street provided the ill-fated KK/K service, an attempt to provide the first direct midtown service for eastern division BMT customers, and yet anotjer attempt to attract people away from the E and F lines to Jamaica.
This afternoon after 4:00 PM there was 1 set of R33ML's signed for '6 East 177 Street-Parchester' the north car was 8892. I photographed it @ Brooklyn Bridge & took it all the way to Parkchester then when the train left Parchester I photographed the south car which was 9052. Now the main question: Why was it running on the #6 line since the last Redbirds(R29,R36ML/WF) were retired on the #6 line in January?
We've been talking about this recently, under several threads. There's an interline between the #5 and #6 weekday schedules. It was meant to put a set of R-62As on the #5 for overnight OPTO service, but with the advent of R-142s on the #5 the R-62As are no longer needed. The R-62As have been replaced by whatever "Redbirds" the Yard Dispatcher chooses to put on that put-in on a given day. Several days last week the train was a set of R-26/28/29 cars.
David
I havent lived in Philly or spent a lot of time there in quite a few years. Im staying down there for a couple nights in August, and I was wondering what are some good restaurants that are easily accessible by rapid transit. Im not looking for something black-tie or your usual cheesesteak place....im just thinking of a nice place thats not overly high priced or overly fancy...im thinking about the Palm on S. Broad and Walnut.....any ideas??
Palm is a very pricy and fancy place - the kind of place those who want to be 'seen' in this city go (politicos, etc). There are others in the vicinity of Palm, such as McCormick & Schmick's on Broad and South Penn Square (across from City Hall), Maggiano's at 12th & Filbert, a whole 'raft' of nice places in Old City (especially Market and Chestnut east of 4th), several new spots in the 700 block of Chestnut St, etc. Center City is loaded with good little spots, and there's always University City (giving you an excuse to ride the subway-surface) and Manayunk (via R6) for other options. Philadelphia magazine usually has good suggestions in each issue with capsule reviews/price ranges for the various places.
I think im either going to go the route of the Palm, or shed the jacket and save some $$$ and go to Ruth's Chris....
Is the old Bookbinders at 2nd and Walnut still open? i heard they were gonna close it.
Nope sorry, gone mores the pity
Good places:
Sfizzio, near 2nd and Walnut, good Italian food.
Joy Tsin Lao in Chinatown.
Marigold's, 45th and Spruce, I think, a few block north of the Route 34 trolley.
Mark
In a NY Post column, Chuck Schumer listed his preferences for what to do with the WTC site.
--Relocate UN there
--new transit hub that will enable LIRR, Metro North to come downtown
--develop waterfront using Chicago as a model, with parkland and museums along the Hudson
--a memorial with the input of the families who lost loved ones
I feel the UN idea is a nonstarter, but I like the other ideas. I've mentioned before that I'm in no hurry to put anything there, but I like the idea of a transit hub and expanded waterfront recreational area.
Unfortunately they fly in the face of what NYC usually does with its open spaces. We see a hint of this, in a microcosm, with what Bloomberg wants to do with the newly rehabilitated Tweed Courthouse: fill it with office cubicles, of course.
The talk is big. But let's be real. What we will see in the WTC site is a lot of drab office buildings, with, yes, parking garages. West Street will not be placed in a tunnel. As for the Hudson waterfront? More luxury housing for the wealthy. A cut rate transit hub, maybe a tunnel to connect all the subway lines, a people mover or two. Certainly no GCT-type structure, and no LIRR or Metro North connection. The auto will still be the preferred method of travel, at least in the minds of city planners.
That's how they do it here.
www.forgotten-ny.com
To paraphrase what the John Birch society once say (Get the US out of the UN and the UN out of the US), I'd be happy to get the UN out of NY, mostly because of what it does to one's commute when heads of state come in.
--Relocate UN there
I'm sick of hearing of proposals to abandon the World Trade Center Site.
http://www.boarshevik.com/UNoccupied
Touché!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Brilliant, that should become a poster. They'd sell like hotcakes ! If the UN is UNoccupied, turn it into a garbage transfer station.
Bill "Newkirk"
garbage transfer station.
Sometimes you have traffic tied up as a lot of people come to the city from all over the world, go in there, and spew out nothing but garbage. :-)
What waterfront? The WTC site isn't even on the water. The Hudson River waterfront nearest the WTC is in Battery Park City, and it already has a string of beautiful public parks along the river.
If anything less than 110 stories goes up it is gonna be the Shame of New York. Unfortunately Mayor Wimpberg probably likes the 4 50 story office building idea, and the memorial would be small.
I say the new supertall building SHOULD be part of the memorial.
The memorial needs to be something everyone can see.
I thought the memorial should take up the upper floors of a tall building and a new observation deck. It's going to be a tourist attraction anyway, it always was, and now even more so. If the fear of being up high in a tall building is a factor, no one will mind going up high for a few hours.
>>--Relocate UN there<<
Chuck should have a lobotomy. The UN is indirectly resposible for 9/11. Infact after the attacks, they were very silent. When Israel defends herself from suicide bombers, than the UN is no longer silent. I think the UN should relocate to a neutral country like Switzerland. Either that or relocate to the Nevada desert where the government does nuclear testing !!
--new transit hub that will enable LIRR, Metro North to come downtown
Boy am I sick of hearing this. or maybe hearing of specially adaptable commuter rail cars that run on subways. Making the LIRR and MNRR much like DC's Metrorail won't work. That plan was for a one seat ride from the suburbs to center city. Metrorail was designed and built this way from the ground up (or down). A rail hub for these major commuter rail lines would entail new subway construction and untold billions of dollars (goodbye 2nd Ave subway !) Something like a "big dig" for the Big Apple/
--develop waterfront using Chicago as a model, with parkland and museums along the Hudson
Battery Park City is in the way !
--a memorial with the input of the families who lost loved ones
With limitations, how big a memorial and how long to build it. We may have some disputes here. I wonder if all the sifted dirt now, at Fresh Kills, was saved. It could be inside a memorial since who knows what miniscule body parts are not seen to the naked eye. It could account for those whose bodies were never found/
Bill "Newkirk"
--Relocate UN there
Why would you want the clowns partially responsible for this disaster to slither around this ground?
--new transit hub that will enable LIRR, Metro North to come downtown
There are now over 150,000 less people in that area, due to the fact that their offices no longer exist, or are heavily damaged. Exactly why would you need this extra service to transport no one to nowhere?
--develop waterfront using Chicago as a model, with parkland and museums along the Hudson
Goodbye to Battery Park City and the WFC, or does he not realize what's there?
--a memorial with the input of the families who lost loved ones
OK, we all understand that.
I think it's time for Chuck to do the this:
Listen to what 3/4 of all NY'ers want----The Twin Towers back. Maybe if 3/4 of us threatened to vote for his opponenet in the next election, he might get the hint.
JDL
There are now over 150,000 less people in that area, due to the fact that their offices no longer exist, or are heavily damaged. Exactly why would you need this extra service to transport no one to nowhere?
That's misleading. There are still many people (including me) working downtown. The number of people commuting here every day and the number of companies still located here do not constitute "no one" and "nowhere". And a great many of them grumble about the commute. Everyone knows it's easier to commute to Midtown, and some employees and companies leave (or avoid) Downtown because of the inferior transportation access. IF you want Downtown to remain a major office district, better transportation is important. Of course, whether Downtown should continue be cast as a major office district is a different question.
Whether it remains a major commercial center depends on the degree to which we rebuild it.
Everyone knows it's easier to commute to Midtown,
Oh? I didn't know that.
From the suburbs, certainly. But from the rest of the city it's easier to get downtown, since so many subway lines converge there.
Chucky you Commie smucko: not even your Sovietsky backups support your Un-American pinko wackass ideals. The freedom loving Ruusky Car Inspectors love this country, love their work and will never go back to the land of Engles/Marx/Lenin and do their best TO MAKE TRAINS GO. Chucky; you and Hillary should go on a twelve month junket to 'fourth world rapid transit systems.' Our subway system is almost a hundred years old and continues to keep New York City alive and keep millions employed.
Everyone knows it's easier to commute to Midtown
Oh? I didn't know that.
From the suburbs, certainly. But from the rest of the city it's easier to get downtown, since so many subway lines converge there.
Except obviously for those using the Pt. Washington line, LIRR riders can get to Downtown just as quickly as they can to much of Midtown, thanks to the excellent subway connections at Flatbush Avenue.
From the suburbs, certainly. But from the rest of the city it's easier to get downtown, since so many subway lines converge there.
From most of Queens, all of the Bronx, and Manhattan north of Midtown, you have to go through Midtown to get to Downtown by subway, adding 10-20 minutes each way. From Brooklyn and Staten Island, I agree that in general it's easier to get Downtown than Midtown, although I think if you're near the F, Q, or W trains it's something of a toss-up, since you'd have a one-seat ride to Midtown vs. a transfer to get Downtown.
In any case, many employees don't live in the city, so ease of commute from the suburbs is quite important.
Yes, I can get to Midtown quickly -- but what good does it do me if I can get to 7th Avenue quickly but I work over on 2nd? To get there, I have a three-seat ride with long passageways, followed by the walk to 2nd itself. Downtown, it doesn't really matter if I'm on the A/C/E or the J/M/Z or the N/R or the 1/2/3 or the 4/5/6, since everything's so close. The only people who can't get to Chambers Street or below without, worst case, a single same-platform transfer are those on the G, on the L, and at Park Place on the Franklin shuttle.
There are now over 150,000 less people in that area, due to the fact that their offices no longer exist, or are heavily damaged.
BTW, where do you get the 150,000 figure from?
There were about 50,000 people working in each tower, not to mention those in buildings 3-7. There's also the damaged 1 Liberty Plaza, 101 Barclay St, etc. Like I said, over 150,000. Maybe even 250,000.
Your numbers are wrong. There were 50,000 in both towers together (25,000 in each). Add another 15-20,000 for the rest of the complex combined.
Ah, ok. Your numbers are off. I believe the 50,000 refers to the total number of employees in the WTC complex (although I'm not sure if it includes 7 WTC), not just one tower. Also, very few buildings are still closed. Most are open (including 1 Liberty Plaza), and the WFC is partially re-opened as well, with full re-opening in the next few months. There are still a few problematic buildings, like the Deutsche Bank building, but in total they certainly didn't house as many people as the WTC complex itself did.
Of course, that's still a lot of jobs that aren't here any more. But many more still are. As long as there's the chance, we should take the opportunity to fix the many shortcomings of the downtown transportation network.
Actually I think 1 Liberty Plaza is just fine, the building seems fully operational and open. I go by there often and see many workers going in and out.
You may be thinking of the Duetche Bank (pardon my mis-speilling)building, in which a hole was gauged out by a chunk of the South tower when it collapsed. That building hasn't even been searched for victims yet.
"--new transit hub that will enable LIRR, Metro North to come downtown "
"There are now over 150,000 less people in that area, due to the fact that their offices no longer exist, or are heavily damaged. Exactly why would you need this extra service to transport no one to nowhere? "
Nonsense. You know better than that - New transit hubs are very good at spurring development. Before the ink is dry on the construction contract for a hub, office and retail developers will be pouring concrete like crazy.
Ron,
You miss the point. I agree with you. However, I was just responding to Chuck Schumer's comments. He's not calling for any significant development. Without this development(ie. a new WTC), then what's the point of building this new hub?
JDL
Thank you. Yes, I did miss the direction of your argument. Didn't take enough time to read it in context.
Well said. I want my Twin Towers back! And the Mall. And Borders.
And make them better and stronger than ever.
====
-- Relocate UN there
===
For those of you who don't know, the main UN building neeeds to be replaced anyway, moving downtown is just one of the options that is being considered. They would also be able to consolidate all of their NYC offices in one location.
To the person who thinks they should move to Switzerland, they already have a major office in Geneva.
For those of you who don't know, the main UN building neeeds to be replaced anyway.
I have a perfect location, no new construction needed:
Residents near the site are already used to the stench, so it won't be a problem.
Most people won't even notice!
The current U.N. building looks fine to me. It's not much older than the the former Twin Towers of the WTC.
U.N should stay put, the City has more important things to do.
Schumer and Wimpberg need to get a room with all their wimpy ideas!
Actually it is much older. The UN building was opened in 1953 (but never occupied by intelligent life) and the World Trade Center opened in 1970 and was completed in 1973.
The U.N. building looks alot newer than that. Guess it's all the glass. It's always nice to look at from the 7 Line Queens Blvd viaduct.
The UN's management is corrupt and deferred maintenance has been the rule. It commonly rains inside the building.
The UN's management is corrupt and deferred maintenance has been the rule. It commonly rains inside the building.
Wow, just like Penn Station!
right, but penn station actually serves a purpose!
Zing!
The building itself is fine. The problem is, it is exteremly difficult to upgrade. It was very well built and they can't upgrade the buildings infrastructure easily. It would be cheaper to build a new building.
I like the UN building, but I agree it does have a very "late 5o's-early 60's" look on the inside.
Check this new article from flakmag:
http://www.flakmag.com/features/walsh.html
K
Keep up the good work Kevin, maybe you can work on a project with Dave.
Steven Pesserillo
Avondale, Arizona
Formally Of
Ridgewood, Queens
City Line, City Of Brooklyn
Ozone Park, Queens
Hey, nice press, Kevin .... though you're a little too hard on yourself at the end of the article :)
--Mark
I picked up the Multiligual June map today at the GCT Transit Museum store. I also saw the nice exhibit on the "El"'s. Anyhow, does anyone know what the differences are between the June maps and the March maps?
huh, no one knows I guess... Oh well.
Someone else asked this, so click here for more info:
Click here
There's a little more info, but I don't think anyone knew there either.
I asked the same question in the thread that GP38 provided a link to, but no one has answered the question. I suppose there are minor or no differences between the March and June maps. It's just another print run with the June date instead. Someone out there, correct me if I'm wrong.
Jose
I haven't opened my copy yet, but what I notice is that they have added the MTA website address "WWW.MTA.INFO" on the front cover below the MTA logo
(from subway.com.ru)
The June map shows the removal of Astoria el and the new direct express service from Joe Bruno's personal line to the 76th Street station (via Sea Beach 76th-bound and West End Renssalaer-bound). [smirk]
ROTFL!!!
I don't know, but maybe they'll finally replace the December map still found aboard the vast majority of trains, still showing the (E) WTC station as being closed and the (W) as running express in Queens.
:-) Andrew
The bugs were fixed in the March 2002 edition.
Chaohwa
The bugs were fixed in the March 2002 edition.
...Which have yet to be placed on any trains! They still have the December edition. A few of them maybe have the January one.
:-) Andrew
Is it really worth spending the money necessary to change all the maps to show those two small changes? I don't think so -- certainly not on A Division trains or on any train stored at ENY.
The maps will need to be updated in September; my vote (not that I have one) would be to wait until then.
I have a copy of the schedule for the MARC Brunswick Line. It operates M-F only. The card lists 2 schedules, one with the letter S and the other without. The S is for minor holidays and snowfall, the one without the S operates other times. I notice that 3 stations only have service when the S schedule operates: Martinsburg, WV, Duffields, and Harpers Ferry WV. The riders guide shows that the 2 WV stations have ticket offices. What trains serve the customers at these 3 stations when the S schedule does not operate? AMTRAK trains?
According to the schedule on-line, two trains in each direction serve these stations, and nine total trains inbound to DC, 11 outbound. If I'm reading the small print correctly, this is the full schedule for the line. ALL trains operate regular weekdays, but ONLY the trains with the S will operate on those holidays and weather days. These aren't special 'holiday/weather only' trains, rather they are the trains that WILL run when service is limited.
-Hank
Yes, Hank is right, all trains run all non-holiday weekdays, during heavy snowfall or minor holidays, only the "S" trains run, and on major holidays and weekends there is no service at all.
Martinsburg and Harpers Ferrry are served by the ATK Capitol Ltd
Yes, but #30 is so late by the time it gets into Washington, the work day is over.
Amtrak's new president and CEO David Gunn told anchor and interviewer Jim Lehrer on PBS's News Hour some very critical things about Amtrak's recent history. Namely he was critical about the whole move to "Acela" and abandonning Metroliner. The following was taken from the Destination Freedom article:
According to the Washington Post, Amtrak got a lot of kidding for naming its new high-speed trains Acela - for example, Acella, with two "l"s, means "armpit" in Italian). Now Gunn has joined the chorus, telling a meeting of the American Public Transit Association Wednesday in Baltimore that he can't understand why Amtrak ever gave up the name Metroliner.
"That's like Coca-Cola changing its great brand name into 'brown liquid in a bottle,'" he said. "Acela, to me, is the room before the first floor."
The trouble is, he said later, too much marketing has been done and he can't give up the name entirely, but he said he may reverse Amtrak's policy of naming everything on the Northeast Corridor Acela-something, such as calling the regular trains Acela Regionals.
"That just confuses the passengers," he said.
Gunn has other symbols he doesn't like. He insisted on having his official portrait made with a lapel pin of the old Amtrak logo, commonly called the "pointless arrow." The new logo is hard to describe. It looks like a series of wavy lines or maybe a seashell run over by a train. Some Amtrak old-timers have taken to calling it "the flying breast implant."
Here is the Complete summary of the Interview::
"If you do a cash flow for Amtrak, the revenues minus expenses, we have a negative cash flow for July, August and September [1991], and we need to borrow $200 million in order to sustain operations through the rest of the fiscal year."
The railroader said Amtrak was "negotiating with banks. We have a credit facility, we've had one and we have borrowed before, but, obviously, times are a little tougher right now, and we're trying to get a loan from our bankers."
The potential reality of Amtrak closing down on July 1 is real, Gunn said, but added, "I alternate between being optimistic and pessimistic. It depends on the moment, but I think we probably have a 50-50 chance of getting the loan."
Gunn said if the carrier does not have the cash, "We will have to say we're going to close down and do it in an orderly fashion."
He said two groups are responsible for Amtrak coming to its fiscal crisis.
"One is Congress - the politicians. They created Amtrak, and they put Amtrak on this fanciful search for self-sufficiency. There's not a rail passenger system in the world that doesn't require government subsidy for some either capital or operating or both. The next thing that happened is management attempted to do what the law required, which was to achieve self-sufficiency - and I think they tried far too long. They should have cried 'uncle' a long time ago."
He opined they "should have said, 'This is going to fail,' because what's happened now is we have a company that has run out of cash and has incurred enormous amounts of debt on its balance sheet. We now have $3.7 billion of debt. We added $700 million last year alone, last fiscal year. We have undertaken a number of initiatives, which have not proven successful. We've deferred a large amount of maintenance in trying to keep going under this mandate of self-sufficiency."
Gunn said, "Either we convince our bankers to loan us the money - and I think they should, by the way, because we'll be able to pay them back in the fall. I mean we will; we can pay them back. So, in a sense, it's a sure deal. We will get next year's appropriation, but the thing that should actually happen is, I think that the administration and Congress should at least, they should... "
His thought went unfinished.
He noted, "We've had a lot of support from Congress, actually. We've been getting a lot of support on several appropriations, which would not solve the problem, but it would keep us going for a good period into the next year. We've had support. 160-plus Congressmen have signed a letter supporting us; almost 50 Senators have signed a letter" supporting Amtrak.
The White House, however, continues to remain silent on the issue.
"The Administration, so far, has been silent in terms of what they want to do with this. We don't expect them to say that they have a long-term faith in Amtrak in all cases, but at least say they want us to make it into the fall."
Lehrer asked, "Why should tax money go to subsidize" the carrier?
Gunn responded, "We provide an essential service in certain areas. If you start on the West Coast, for example, like between Los Angeles and San Diego, we have a fairly frequent service there and move a lot of people. We operate commuter services in that area, for example, a peninsula commuter service. We operate the service to Sacramento, which is a pretty heavy and growing service, and we operate a service in the Northwest, an inner city service from Portland to Seattle, that corridor.
"We operate three transcontinentals, transcontinental trains. In some areas, it is a totally different sort of service, but it does provide mobility to some areas that don't have a lot of options.
"When you go into a small town in Montana, you have a four-lane interstate even though there's only a few people there.
NCI via PBS NewsHour
"There's a lot of mythology about Amtrak's economics."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Government has a role, I think, to provide mobility generally, but then when you get to the East Coast, I mean if you lose the Northeast Corridor, I think all of a sudden Amtrak will mean something to an awful lot of people because we are the dominant carrier between Washington and New York, and a big carrier north to Boston.
"We operate the commuter service in Boston. New Jersey Transit operates over our tracks and into Penn Station [in New York City], which we used to own until we mortgaged it to try to stay afloat. Geez, that's another thing they did."
Lehrer asked, "What you call intercity passenger service, particularly the transcontinental... I read something today that they only haul 18 percent of your passengers, but account for 75 percent of your loss?"
Gunn disagreed with the numbers.
"No. You've got to be very careful. There's a lot of mythology about Amtrak's economics. Everything loses money. In other words, people will say it's the long-distance trains, and if you got rid of them, the corridor would be a profitable company.
"Not so.
"The passenger movement or transportation market in the United States is thoroughly subsidized, whether it's highway, airlines or rail. The basic structure of Amtrak, the Northeast Corridor, covers most of its operating costs, the costs of the train crews and maintenance of the cars and so forth, but it does not cover its capital expenses - and we have an enormous deficit in that area.
"Long distance trains have little capital needs, but they have a big operating subsidy."
Gunn also took a dim view of breaking up Amtrak into smaller units.
"It makes no sense. People are avoiding the basic issue, and that is: Do you want passenger rail service?"
Gunn sees a great potential at Amtrak to increase efficiencies.
"What we should do, and we haven't done a great job of it, is run the most efficient system and network that we can, and then the question is: Look, USAir wants $1 billion just to keep afloat, right, just for operating subsidy. What you have to do is decide... how do you want to move passengers in these various markets, particularly the Northeast Corridor?"
Meanwhile, Standard & Poor's reported on June 7 that its "BBB" corporate credit and unsecured debt ratings on The National Railroad Passenger Corp. "remain on 'CreditWatch' with developing implications," where they were placed Nov. 13, 2001, according to a press release from Standard & Poor's.
The CreditWatch update followed Amtrak's June 6 announcement that it could shut down operations at the end of June if it did not obtain access to its existing financing sources (which includes a $270 million short-term credit facility) to fund cash needs until annual appropriations are received this fall.
"Amtrak's most recent announcement reinforces its position that it cannot reach self-sufficiency and will continue to need government support to maintain its operations, even at a reduced level," said S&P credit analyst Betsy Snyder.
An S&P spokesperson said, "The availability of these sources, which have been held up due to the late filing of Amtrak's fiscal 2001 financial statements, is anticipated prior to the end of June. Should financing not be available, ratings would likely be lowered, possibly to speculative grade."
Over the longer term, ratings on Amtrak could be raised or affirmed if Congress implements legislation that improves and ensures Amtrak's long-term operating and capital funding and eliminates the existing self-sufficiency requirement. Alternatively, ratings could be lowered if the legislative process reduces Amtrak's ability to meet its financial obligations, according to S&P.
Last February 1, Amtrak indicated that if it does not receive $1.2 billion, it may shut down some of its network of long-distance trains on October 1.
To date, Amtrak has received repeated indications of government support. Both the House of Representatives and U.S. Senate have legislation pending to extend that support. Even Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), a frequent Amtrak critic, has requested a hearing on avoiding a complete shutdown of Amtrak, either discontinuing or subsidization by individual states of unprofitable routes.
S&P noted, "The issuer credit rating on Amtrak reflects its important public service role, especially in light of increased rail ridership since the events of September 11, 2001, and continued assistance from the federal government, offset by a weak financial profile."
Earlier in the week, on Monday, in his third message to employees via Amtrak's Employee Advisory, Gunn said, in a terse, single sentence, "I have no news regarding the loan, which we are seeking. I will keep you advised."
Unlike his predecessors, he is not filling the pages with hyperbole.
In his "Dear Co-workers" letter, he told the carrier's employees last week that not only is the number of 84 vice-presidents being shrunk to 20, but also the "strategic business units" will be eliminated in his "plans to return to a traditional railroad structure." Operational control will return to Washington headquarters.
He wrote, "The strategic business units will be abolished over the next few months. There will be four major system line departments reporting to Chief Operating Officer Stan Bagley."
The business units are Intercity (operating from Chicago), Northeast Corridor (Philadelphia) and Amtrak West (Oakland, Calif.) The regional offices will stay open, but they will handle local operations rather than make policy decisions, the Washington Times reported.
Meanwhile, in an unrelated action, the Washington Post of June 10 reported The White House has concluded that Amtrak should be under the purview of President Bush's new security apparatus, because terrorists might attack trains.
Gunn told Amtrak employees, "On June 6, the board of directors approved a significant reorganization of Amtrak. While it is impossible to communicate all the details in a notice such as this, I can give you the basic thrust of the reorganization."
He said the remaining vice-presidential jobs would include Bagley, who remains operations chief, and who is responsible for train movement and on-board services as well as mail and express.
Other posts include the railroad's chief mechanical officer, who will look after locomotive and car fleets; the chief engineer, who will continue to maintain the railroad and execute capital projects involving the fixed plant, track, signals, bridges and buildings, and so on; and the police chief.
Gunn said several support departments would report directly to Bagley. "For example, operations planning, which will be responsible for schedules, car utilization, consists, crewing, capital project scheduling and coordination."
The new Amtrak president, wasting no time since coming aboard on May 13, said, "The purpose of this reorganization is to streamline decision-making and clearly assign authority and responsibility for various aspects of the company." He offered an example by lopping the numbers of people in charge of fleet management to five.
He said sixteen positions "currently have responsibility and authority over cars and locomotives - one president; one executive vice president, operations; five senior vice presidents; two vice-presidents; three regional vice presidents; one chief mechanical officer; and three senior directors."
The board agreed, and the new order will be far simpler.
"The new organization will establish the chain of command for cars and locomotives as follows: one president, one chief operating officer, one chief mechanical officer, one assistant chief mechanical officer for cars; one assistant chief mechanical officer for locomotives."
Gunn added, "We also intend to deal with title inflation for a variety of reasons, and explained the carrier "has ended up with more than 80 people" with "vice-president" in their titles.
"Many of these jobs are important, but misnamed. In the future, the title 'vice-president' will be used sparingly and with fewer adjectives such as 'executive,' 'senior,' 'corporate,' 'regional,' etc."
The vice presidents will lose their job titles, but not their jobs, a source said.
Bill Schulz, among the people soon to be a former Amtrak vice-president, declined to respond immediately on Tuesday to queries from D:F.
We asked two specific questions - "These people are losing their titles, but what about their wages? Will they remain the same? Will they also remain in the D.C. area?"
He replied, "You can put us down for a 'declined to respond' on the questions you ask." He added, "As details are developed and made final, we will see about answering these questions."
As of June 7, Gunn's 20 VPs included Gerri Mason Hall, Business Diversity; Joseph McHugh, Government Affairs and Policy; Lorraine Green, Human Resources; Joseph Bress, Labor Relations; Barbara Richardson, Marketing and Sales.
Others included Stan Bagley, chief operating officer; Arlene Friner, chief financial officer; Alicia Serfaty, general counsel and corporate secretary;
The vice-presidency for planning and business development remains vacant, but he said the firm would soon post the job or bidders.
He noted two people who had been in an acting capacity for many months have been appointed - Joe McHugh and Alicia Serfaty.
He explained "A number of non-operating functions will be affected by the changes," and he would give employees around the system "more details later."
He noted, however, "While this reorganization will be far-reaching in its effect, the divisional structures and front line forces will be least affected. Furthermore, the details of the mechanical and engineering departments will unfold once a chief mechanical officer and chief engineer have been appointed."
He was also critical of former president and CEO George Warrington's practices.
"I know most of you have been through a lot recently, but I firmly believe what we are doing will make sense and will undo some well-intended, but unsuccessful organizational experiments. Furthermore, most of you knew I would make changes, so let's get it over with quickly and get on with rebuilding Amtrak. Unfortunately, I did not have time to hire consultants to tell us what to do, so we are doing this on our own."
One of his first acts a month ago was to fire most, if not all, consultants.
Meanwhile, we learned on Friday via The Packer (online at http://www.thepacker.com/) a trade publication covering the fresh fruit and vegetable industries, that ExpressTrak, based in Detroit, is expanding despite Amtrak's financial problems.
The firm has a 15-year contract with Amtrak to ship perishable goods in refrigerated cars coupled to passenger trains, and has managed to expand its business by adding Louisville, Ky., to its list of destinations.
Kevin McKinney, vice president of marketing and administration for ExpressTrak said he has no reason to doubt David Gunn's abilities to turn the Amtrak situation around.
"Gunn brings a good level of credibility to the office," he said. "He's off to a good start on Capitol Hill."
McKinney also expressed confidence in the changes proposed by Gunn, adding that he sees no downside to the changes for ExpressTrak.
"My personal opinion is that the changes will be helpful," he said, and added, "A better operating Amtrak is good for us and good for everybody."
I have some Italian blood in me, but even I know that Amtrak named Acela for Aceleration..and rightfully so! For anyone who has taken Acela Express, you know how the train accelerates and decellarates naturally! -Nick
Thank you for posting that interview JM.
A very comprehensive and interesting report and an asset to SubTalk. Thank you for taking the time to put it all together for us.
I just lifted it off Destination Freedom. I have tried to get people to read Destination Freedom, but nobody will and I have to cross post stuff here. If you want to read D/F go to www.nationalcorridors.org
I have already said this about D:F, and I will say so again. It's too long to read in detail. You are doing us all a great service by lifting off parts that are relevant. I find some of the writing a little too passionate for me at times.
AEM7
As they say with my son's giant Air Force cargo planes, "Nice lift"!
Anyone want to buy an Historic Train Depot?
Check out this eBay auction (not mine :-), only $60,000.
Here is the link again.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1740535267
An Amtrak train from Florida to New York derailed and sideswiped a MARC train near Baltimore Penn Station yesterday afternoon at about 5:35 PM. The only unit I can identify in the picture in today's Washington Post is MARC AEM-7 4901. Three people were injured. Most Amtrak service is normal this morning although MARC Penn Line service is only running southbound between Odenton and Washington. Metro is honoring MARC passes at Greenbelt and New Carrollton Stations.
Uh-oh.
I fully expect the Boston services to be cut back. Amtrak have no equipment left. I wonder if the Inland Route would be withdrawn *again*, and train #66 might just not run (or become a dedicated freight move). If any sleepers are damaged then #66 and #449 will almost certainly have no sleepers.
AEM7
The colission was pretty minor. An N/B Amtrak long haul blew through a signal and tried to occupy the same track as a MARC Penn Linr Bi-level train via a trailing point switch. The Lead Amtrak P42 caved in the side of one of the new BI-levels (modern construction for ya) and derailed, putting the bi-level on a 15o tilt. No other Amtrak cars were damaged.
The MARC bi-levels were built by Kawasaki using stainless steel. Are you saying that a Budd would not have behaved in a similar way? I think if you hit a Superliner with the nose of a locomotive, the sides would cave in too. Locomotives are pretty heavy.
AEM7
Wait a minute. Isn't the NEC cab-signalled between Washington and Baltimore? Or are P-42's not equipped with receivers?
Yeah, but a STOP gives the same 15mph Restricting cab signal as slow clear or any of the other cab signals.
Yeah, but a STOP gives the same 15mph Restricting cab signal as slow clear or any of the other lo-speed signals.
For those of us who have gone to funerals for various rail services since childhood we may be attending the biggest funeral of all the way things are going...where will it be..take your pick. In my case the closest would be the Empire Builder about Shelby MT. The way things are going this is more than sour grapes and too late in the game to be prophecy.With the exception of corridors like NE which will no doubt be quickly assumed even if by public authorities we may be seeing the end of Amtrak and the end of long distance trains except for high priced rail cruises.
Metro honored MARC tickets at ALL stations. I took MARC into Union Station and used it on the Red Line to Metro Center.
Here is the text from a email from the MTA dealing with the derailment.
The Maryland Transit Administration (MTA) reports that most MARC Train Service on the Penn Line resumed today at 9:30 a.m. following last night’s derailment near Penn Station.
Tuesday afternoon and evening service is expected to be available for customers during the commute home. MARC’s afternoon Train #431 leaving Baltimore at 3:25 p.m. to Washington was cancelled. Allow extra time for travel as service returns to normal after Monday's disruption.
On Monday evening, at approximately 5:45 p.m., a northbound Amtrak train came in contact with southbound MARC train #437 as the MARC train was leaving Baltimore. The incident derailed two empty MARC passenger cars and one Amtrak locomotive, blocking all tracks through Baltimore for MARC and Amtrak trains. An investigation of the incident by Amtrak is underway. After a temporary shut down of the Penn Line, service resumed after 6:30 p.m. last night with MARC trains moving between Washington and the West Baltimore MARC station. The MTA brought in buses to serve points north of Baltimore from BWI and Penn Station.
The Tuesday morning Penn Line service was limited to southbound service from Odenton to Washington. There was no northbound service.
Customers may call 410-539-5000 or 1-800-325-RAIL (7245) for additional information this afternoon.
Thank you for your patience.
More info from the MTA
MTA is pleased to report that the Penn Line service resumed
to Baltimore today at about 9:30 a.m. We do know that
Train 431 will not operate today, but customers can catch
Train 433 which follows 20 minutes later.
Amtrak was able to open one track through Baltimore shortly
before 7a.m. and a second track around 8am. MARC’s evening
service should be close to normal but we will know later in
the afternoon whether there are sufficient crews to operate
all trains. Call 410-539-5000 for more information later
in the afternoon.
This is what happened. On Monday evening, at about
5:45p.m. a northbound Amtrak train and southbound MARC train
437 connected as the MARC train was leaving Baltimore.
There were four non life-threatening injuries reported with
three MARC cars were derailed and damaged. The
investigation continues.
This incident blocked all tracks through Baltimore for all
MARC and Amtrak trains. After a temporary shut down of
all service on the Penn Line, service resumed after
6:30p.m. last night with trains between Washington and West
Baltimore and buses serving points north of West Baltimore
from BWI and Penn Station.
By the end of the evening, most MARC equipment was in
Washington, D.C. instead of the normal Baltimore location.
Furthermore, many crews could not operate trains Tuesday
morning due to federal laws regarding hours of rest for
crews. Amtrak advised us in the early morning hours
Tuesday that the only feasible operation for the morning
rush hour would be limited train service from Odenton to
Washington. Even this service did not operate as smoothly
as anticipated due to mechanical problems with one set of
equipment and congestion in Washington—lingering
disruptions from last evening.
Many passengers have asked why we did not provide alternate
bus service on Tuesday morning. Although MARC attempted to
get buses for a limited service there were virtually no
buses available from private operators. Both MTA and WMATA
could not provide sufficient buses during the middle of the
rush hour to move more than a fraction of the 15,000 riders
who use the Penn Line each day.
While many riders switched to the Camden Line there was no
way to add cars to these trains, many of which are normally
crowded.
We certainly apologize for the difficult conditions that
many riders experienced last night and this morning.
Whenever there is a significant disruption to a major
artery such as Amtrak's Northeast Corridor it is very
difficult to provide alternate transportation on short
notice. Many Amtrak and MARC employees worked all night to
try to provide the most service with limited resources. We
appreciate your patience and understanding.
When the #1 train resumes to South Ferry by the end of the year,will the #9 train return as the skip-stop train.
As was announced here less than a week ago: yes, that is the plan.
David
I missed that tragic news, please say it is not so!!!!!!!!!!!
What thread was that discussed in (or more specifically, where did the info come from that the 9 would be back)?
What's REALLY happening
If all goes as planned on or about 9/16 the 9 will make it's return.
My birthday is 9/15, what a awefull gift! What horse's *ss decided to bring that monstrosity back? Does anyone really like it?
I've found a way around it in the morining, I take the #9 Bus to the 4 train, gets me downtown faster and I don't have to stand like an idiot while the 9 train cruises through the station.
Actually, it will be closer to 9/30 when the 9 returns. At the same time, the #2 will go express again (those rumors about it staying local are false). -Nick
Yes, all service to pre 9/11 patterns
I would just love to hear the reason the 9 is being brought back. The entire concept of skip stop for such a limited run makes zero sense. Can't the TA just admit the skip stop on the #1 line did not work and let it go? I'm the C/R's who have to change all those roll signs would agree also. The entire thing is a complete waist of time. As I said, aside from the people at the all stop stations (of which there are only really two - 242 and 231, you cannot count 191 thru 168 as they only skip ONE stop) you are inconviencing customers at the 7 stops that get skipped service and I detailed in a previous post, those at skipped stations AT BEST save NO TIME over a period of days and on a given run, save maybe 2 or 3 minutes at best.
I would love to see the TA explain the purpose of this!
I'm awaiting an explanation as well! Assuming the maximum time saved by skip-stop listed in the timetable is always reached (e.g., the timetable shows that skip-stop from 242nd to 137th saves between 0 and 2 minutes over all-stop service, so I'm assuming 2-minute savings), and assuming that everybody travels past 137th, and counting time linearly with no adjustment for standing on an uncomfortably hot or cold platform, and using 1999 passenger counts at each station except 168th, the average passenger north of 137th loses 12 seconds due to skip-stop.
I did a similar calculation, more "on average", assuming somedays you will get the skip stop train to "speed" you to your station. The very best you can hope for, over the long run, is to break even on time. THE VERY BEST!
I would still like to see a more recent ridership report, I am a firm believer that in 2002, Dyckman is significantly more popular than 191. With no skip stop, I see many more people getting on and off at Dyckman (and I ride past there 3 or so times a day).
I am assuming averages. The average wait at a skip-stop station is twice as long as the average wait at an all-stop station. I plugged in all the numbers and came up with a per-passenger loss of 12 seconds. See this post.
We figured out on nyc.transit why 191st was more popular than 181st: 181st was closed for a few months that year for rehab. Presumably many passengers who would normally use 181st went up to 191st instead, boosting its count. So, yes, you're probably right.
Thanks,
That does explain the "higher" ridership figures for 191. I knew my eyes were not lying, I see a few folks getting on and off at 191 and many more at Dyckman. The closure of 181, surely explains the figures for 191.
David,
I just read your detailed calculation on the skip stop issue. Very well done! The only thing is that I do think 181 deserves skip stop status due to its proximity to Yeshiva University and The GW Bridge bus terminal, as well as a busy commercial area.
Actually when you add in the ridership figures, the point of skip stop is compeletly insane. You show that 145 and 157 are among the more used stations, thus one would assume they deserve all stop status, but since they are at the begining/end of the skip stop section, they cannot be! My picks for all stop would be 231, Dyckman, 181, 168 and they you can add either or both 145 and 157. I am not advocating this, just saying those make some small degree of sense. 191 in no way should be skip stop.
Thanks. Keep in mind that I was using the 1999 numbers, not realizing at the time that the counts at 181st and its neighbors were off. I don't think that changes my basic point, though, that skip-stop is a net time waster.
I think you and I are in complete agreement on the issue of skip stop. I also agree with your point of the need for more regular local service between 42 and 96. While I don't want my service cut in the Bronx, the point of the subway is to move people effectively. And short turning trains at 137 may indeed by a good idea. And I also think in rush hours (and often later), VCP gets so backed up that less could be more on my end of the line. What good is getting a train that only sits at each stop after 207 while trains inch into the terminal ahead.
I think that when things go back to pre 9-11 status, we will see an improvement due to the end of the switching north of 96. That ties up trains no end. But losing the 2 on the local will not help.
I like it.
OK, we are all entitled to our opinion, but can you articulate any valid reason for it? Check out David Greenbergers excellent analysis of the situation, he shows that overall, skip stop increase travel time for passsengers (while barely decreasing travel time for trains). Yet the purpose of the subway is to move people NOT trains!
>>>Yet the purpose of the subway is to move people NOT trains!<<<
Tell THAT to the TA. They seem to have it backwards. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
LOL, Andee.
Currently the MTA has no plans to alter service on the 7 Avenue line opnce the Greenwich street tunnel is open. So there will be 9 service come September 11 2002
Newsbeat
Currently the MTA has no plans to alter service on the 7 Avenue line opnce the Greenwich street tunnel is open. So there will be 9 service come September 11 200.
Newsbeat
IS the date tentatively set for September 11, 2002? I heard they may be done in Septemeber or early October, but it would be really fitting and nice (not to mention amazing) if they got the trains rolling by September 11th.
The date is set to change periodically so 9/11 might not be the date. I'll keep you updated
Right now the date is set for on/or around 9-11-02.
Currently the MTA has no plans to alter service on the 7 Avenue line opnce the Greenwich street tunnel is open. So there will be 9 service come September 11 2002.
Newsbeat
Why did you respond thrice with the same exact text?
When all the R62A cars are delivered to the #7 line, will there be a #11 train so it doesn't confused passengers on which train they get on, an express or a local.
I really doubt it.
The only thing that would distinguish the two numbers would be express vs. local. Otherwise, they're the same route.
The 5 and 6 have local and expres versions. They don't have the 8 and 10, or whatever, doubling them.
:-) Andrew
No. Most of the end sings have a diamond 7 with express underneath. Just like the 6 express.
I wish they would, but because the #7 line is 3 tracks, they won't add a route. If the line was 4 tracks, than there would be an express train in both directions (it wouldn't switch between the A.M. and P.M. rush hours). Apparently it's too much work to change the roll signs each time, but that problem could be solved if LED signs were installed. -Nick
I don't think it's a good idea to replace the diamond routes with their own seperate numbers or letters. It would make it more confusing than it is now.
See this map in the fantasy map section of this site:
Click here for Fantasy Map
I don't particularly like the the diamond routes either, but I think it is the lesser of two evils. Look how many lines are on the 7th Ave line and the Flatbush line. Very confusing. Too many routes listed. ANd a lot of the service (with a few exceptions) is the same as we have today.
I think you made it more confusing than the use of diamonds. What's wrong with them? Are you worried that the T/A will be lazy and not distinguish a local train from an express?
Stick to the old-fashioned way. It's usually always best. Plus, it looks weird on the map.
It wasn't my map! I was just saying how confusing it would be if they did get rid of the diamonds and used seperate routes for everything. Someone else made the map. I agree with everything you said, that's what I said when I posted the map link!
Too many routes? But I can see it now!
This is Atlantic Avenue. Transfer here to the 2, 3, 10, 12, 13, 14, d, q, b, m, n, r, p, t.
Conductors would have a field day.
Too many routes? But I can see it now!
This is Atlantic Avenue. Transfer here to the 2, 3, 10, 12, 13, 14, d, q, b, m, n, r, p, t.
Conductors would have a field day.
Wouldn't it be confusing to the passengers to learn a whole new set of subway routes which are express instead of confining them to a diamond as it is now?
Exactly! Just look at the New Lots/Flatbush line! I think there are 7 ot 8 different trains running on it!
I wish they made the <7> the (11).
The current <7> is very confusing sometimes. I live at a local station (40th st), and in Manhattan many trains aren't consistent. Some rollsigns say things like <7> Flushing local, or (7) Flushing Express. It wouldnt bother me very much if people just kept all their trains consistent. sometimes its practically impossible to tell the trains apart.
That is a problem. Lots of signs on the redbirds are defective, the sign box has to be opened by the RCI and the roll sign turned by hand. Even if they weren't defective, you need a lot of platform personel to change 22 side signs on a redbird since those trains don't sit at Main St. terminal for long.
Well why do they wash the windows after wach run?
Wouldn't it be cool if a diamond-7 used a non-revenue connection to transition to another IRT route and take people on a joyride to the Bronx?
Maybe every 6th train (irregularly) should do it. That'll really get people messed up. Then they'll stop complaining about little things...
:0)
Same problem would arise if the signs changed to 11.
You can argue for or against the use of the 11, but it all comes down to consistency and hoping the train doesn't go from express to local or vice versa. In that I mean if a Manhattan bound train (for example) is signed up for an express, goes exp to TS, returns to MS, then goes back to TS local for whatever reason, the signs theoretically should be changed. If the crew doesn't change the signs or has no time to change the signs, you'll be stuck with an incorrect sign....that's why the announcements are important. I see many just board the first train at TS, then when it arrives at QBP, that's when you hear the conductor shout "Express! Express!" or "Local! Local!"
=)
The different numbers only work when you have a four track line. Because an "express" is always an express whether it is going inbound or outbound. Such as the Brighton line (when the MB is open), the Lexington Line, etc. When you have only a three track line such as the Flushing line or the White Plains line, the express can only run express in one direction, so you will have an 11 going express one way and local the other way. I think as confusing as the diamond routes are, it is still less confusing that having more numbers.
And how would that help?
The trains currently aren't signed properly because crews don't have enough time to roll the signs from circle to diamond or from diamond to circle. It doesn't take any less time to roll the sign from 7 to 11 than from circle-7 to diamond-7! (It might take more time, in fact, if 7 and 11 aren't adjacent on the rolls; I don't know if the numbers are grouped by color.)
I had my VCR primed and ready. That sure brought back a lot of memories. They didn't allow us to bring radios to school back in '69, and we were kept in the dark until school let out. I got home in time to see the last out. Last night, when it got to that point, Curt Gowdy said just as I remember, "The Mets are World Champions!" as Cleon Jones caught Davey Johnson's game-ending fly ball. They included Lindsey Nelson interviewing the top brass, Gil Hodges included, in the locker room afterwards.
Just to keep this thread on-topic: there is a clip on the Mets' 25th anniversary video of J. C. Martin in the on-deck circle during the tenth inning of Game 4, and in the background a 7 train is clearly visible as it cruises past.
Ah yes--I was in 6th grade back then, and I conviently got a sore throat Monday night and was able to stay home for games 3, 4 and 5, which took place Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. Of course back then they were all day games. By Friday I was all better :)
Before the 69 World Series, I had virtually no interest in baseball, all I got out of going to Shea Stadium was the hot dogs and hopefully sitting on the 3rd base side up high so I could see the R-36s going in and out of Willets Point. (True story--once I was at a game and someone asked me who was winning, I said "Times Square") :D
1969, I don't remenber that World Series. Wait aminent I was not born untill 1973. All well there still the 1986 wourld series.
Robert
I was in seventh grade and no, I didn't skip school. Too bad they didn't have VCRs in those days. There were open-reel video tape recorders, but these were much too expensive for the average household. Of course, when the game ended, I HAD to watch the locker room interviews as well the Shea playing field getting all torn up. Consequently, I was late for a drum lesson. There is a story of a Madison Ave. bus driver who shouted, "Everybody on free!" when the Mets won it. Wonder if he still had his job the following day. The city went absolutely nuts. One of the newspapers carried a simple headline: "THEY DID IT".
We went to the city two days later to Saturday school, and everything seemed normal on the subway, anyway.
Trains.com website:
"That's like Coca-Cola changing its great brand name into 'brown liquid in a bottle,’ Acela, to me, is the room before the first floor."
--Amtrak President and CEO David Gunn, in a speech to the American Public Transit Association last week in Baltimore, on what he thinks of replacing the Metroliner name with Acela Express. The quote was reported by Washington Post transportation writer Don Phillips. Gunn said too much has been invested in the Acela Express name to replace it, but added that he may strip the Acela name from other Northeast Corridor services.
(Note: How much did Amtrak spent on coming up with the name "Acela"?)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! WHY IS THE CEO DOING THIS???? THE ACELA NAME IS TO GOOD TO BE STRIPED FROM THE NORTHEAST CORRIDOR!!
It sounds like the Acela Express would retain its name as the premeire service on the NEC, but the Acela Regional would lose the Acela name, presumably to cut down on confusion between the two.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yeah bring back the NEDirect. That's the REAL premier service.
AEM7
No Acela is better.
I see a new handle in your future.........
"NEDirect2005"
Nah I was think of PacificSurfliner2005
That has a nicer ring to it than Acela actually.
I wonder if Dave will let me Change the handle without going through all that krap again.
You have an AOL account (up to seven) add another and branch of that one.
I know how to get different Screen Names, I want the handle on SubTalk to change.
Is 2005 the year you finish high school?
Ya.
What is the requirments to be a Amtrak Engineer? I plan on becoming a Amtrak Engineer when I get out of High School, I hear they make lots of money.
You make more money working for the NYCDOS, and you actually put up with less shit.
-Hank
A sure requirement is that you either don't marry or divorce your first wife within about 5 years. That's the reason I didn't become an Amtrak Engineer.
AEM7
Same for me. AcelaExpress2005 must be the same age as I am.
Ya Railfan Pete, I'm 14 going on 15 next month.
Then you're the same grade. I am 15 1/2 and my birthday's in January.
Oh kool.
Kids! My youngest is older than either of you (Anon_e_mouse Jr. is in the class of 2004) :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At least that post made ME fell young, me son is just finishing 4th Grade; he turns 10 in July!
Heck, Bill, I'm a grandfather... my grandsons are 5 and almost 3. My older daughter will turn 35 in July, my younger son is 16 (17 come November), and my older son and younger daughter are in between.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You guys are making me feel old....I'm twice your age!
You must be 34-35 then
Time to go back to math class.
I was giving a guess, besides I hate Math.
You can't multiply by 2?
I can understand if you hate geometric proofs, or quadratic equations, but you should be able to multiply by 2 without having to "guess" and without having to use a calculator.
I know how multiply by 2, Ahh The hell with it!
we all make dumb mistakes sometimes
I'm 31 actually.
Oh Okay, that's not old.
I know......but it's still twice your age!
I'm just relieved that there are at least two younger people on this board than myself.
Why might that be so?
I'm 18 - it's my 19th on July 5th. To celebrate I'm going to Lille!!!
Well then you are not British!!!!!
Well then you are not British!!!!!
Hey - what does my choice of celebrating my Birthday near the French / Belgian border (French cuisine, Belgian beer :D) in a city with one of the most modern Métros on the planet with full railfan windows (YAY!) have to do with my nationality?
To be fair, I do speak French a little bit better than most British people and it does annoy me to an extent that Britain lacks certain good American ideals. However, I have no intention of turning this into an American idealism thread; for much though it'd be fun, it'd be VERY OT.
In case anyone was wondering - I am going to take a camera with me to Lille. I'll hopefully get some good snaps of the Métro and Tramway and maybe a couple of Eurostar too...
(French cuisine, Belgian beer :D)
I can see that you obviously know how to enjoy fashionable European life. I have tended to stick to my Fish & Chips, plus the obligatory boiled vegetables. This is when I don't have my Scottish hat on and don't go for the Neeps & Tatties.
Hey - what does my choice of celebrating my Birthday near the French / Belgian border in a city with one of the most modern Metros on the planet with full railfan windows (YAY!) have to do with my nationality?
Aren't the English supposed to hate the French? I have always found French people very difficult to deal with, but I was told that they are very genuine and down to earth once you get to know them. It's a pity that I never got to know any French person really well while I was over there, but that's too bad I guess. You know, the strange thing about Europe is that pre-WWI ego war between Britain, France, and Germany is still going on. Why do you think we have three totally distinct systems of high speed rail? (APT, ICE, TGV -- in the order of technical brilliance, from the best to the worst!)
AEM7
Aren't the English supposed to hate the French?
I don't actually have any problem with the French, but I admit they are a good target for jokes. They are culturally very different - it is obvious that the English Channel is much wider than the Atlantic - but I've always found it easy to get along over there.
You know, the strange thing about Europe is that pre-WWI ego war between Britain, France, and Germany is still going on.
Oh, utterly. At least we don't have silly wars these days about some Austrian bloke getting shot.
Why do you think we have three totally distinct systems of high speed rail? (APT, ICE, TGV -- in the order of technical brilliance, from the best to the worst!)
APT was too good - the tilt made it perfectly stable on board, but it made riders feel sick if thy looked out the window. I like the TGV's separate modern lines. It makes such a change from that crawl through South London and Kent! My fantasy is for some sort of APT-2 to run two routes: Birmingham Snow Hill - Banbury - London Marylebone; and Leicester Central - Rugby Central - London Marylebone. This is because these are the only main lines in Britain ever constructed to modern standards (although quite a bit of track needs relaying).
Birmingham Snow Hill - Banbury - London Marylebone; and Leicester Central - Rugby Central - London Marylebone. This is because these are the only main lines in Britain ever constructed to modern standards (although quite a bit of track needs relaying).
Wait -- I don't get it. You are saying that the Chiltern Line and the Great Central is well-engineered? The last I heard, it had better clearances than the other lines (hence GCR's doublestack freight plan) because it was built relatively late, but I had always thought the ECML was the racetrack at least as far as Leeds.
Well APT-2 would be nice, but I still think what Britain needs is new lines -- doublestack freight and 200mph pax. It's going to be expensive, and probably won't ever be done because Britain is already so densely populated. It would be like trying to build a second NEC here in the US. It would be near impossible without by-passing all the towns. But hey, they built the M1 (and I-90 for that matter). Why they can't do that for the railways is beyond me.
AEM7
Wait -- I don't get it. You are saying that the Chiltern Line and the Great Central is well-engineered? The last I heard, it had better clearances than the other lines (hence GCR's doublestack freight plan) because it was built relatively late,
Yes - it is its late construction which allowed it to be engineered with the benefit of hindsight. No level crossings, fewer nasty cuves... it's a proper railway - or at least it would be if half of it hadn't been torn up and the other half only has Local and Semi-Fast service.
but I had always thought the ECML was the racetrack at least as far as Leeds.
The ECML was designed to serve the North of England and nothing else. It effectively ignores the Midlands. It says something that Peterborough of all places is an important stop! The GCR and the GCR/GWR Joint Line gave the Midlands its own mainline (better than the MR's St Pancras' - Leicester London Rd Line and a hell of a lot better than the LNWR's West Coast "Main" Line). BR chose to ignore the Midlands, so both Birmingham and Leicester suffer unnecessarily. The only Midland towns which really benefit from this arrangement are the relatively insignificant places of Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield and Stafford. Even Coventry could be better served via Leamington.
Actually I was brought up to believe that the French were hard to deal with and very annoying. Then I actually meet one, in fact I married one (I took solice in the fact she always stressed that her family heritage was Armenian, NOT French). I actually joked with her that my dad (who had passed away just months before I met her) would be very upset to know I was seeing a French girl; I should have taken his advice!! In the 3 years we were married, she ran off on 4 different occasions with 2 different boyfriends and had 5 abortions. Just last month she ran off to France with our son and her latest boy-toy (number 3 or 4), a 22 year kid from the Czech Rep (she is 40 by the way.) She was complaining she felt she was getting old, I guess having a barely post-pubesent boyfriend (who cannot be bothered getting a regular job, he's a dance club DJ that just can't get any gigs in any clubs) makes her feel young.
And the rotten kids my son is forced to go to school with over there in that hell hole of a country are teasing him because he is American. It is amazing how much they loved us in 1944! Next time we let the German's keep them!
This is horrible. You're obviously the better person and most likely the better parent and so you should get the custody. The mother-favoritism in our family courts should end.
Thanks,
She was not even in the US legally.
I can empathize with your situation. Why did your marriage last for 3 years? Did you have an opportunity to end it earlier than that?
Hey - what does my choice of celebrating my Birthday near the French / Belgian border (French cuisine, Belgian beer :D) in a city with one of the most modern Métros on the planet with full railfan windows (YAY!) have to do with my nationality?
I'm surprised that Lille would have a modern metro. While I've never been there, from what I've heard it sounds as if the city is, er, a bit past its prime. Not the sort of place that would have a new system.
I'm surprised that Lille would have a modern metro.
French tax and planning laws make them easier to construct. In fact the VAL (Véhicule Automatique Léger - Automatic Light Vehicle) system was invented specifically for Lille.
While I've never been there, from what I've heard it sounds as if the city is, er, a bit past its prime.
Like many European cities, heavy industry has been declining for about 2 decades. However, Lille has done better than most to revitalise itself.
Some good pages about the Métro are:
http://www.metropla.net/eu/lil/lille.htm
and http://www.transpole.fr (the official site)
Thanks for the URLs. Lille's metro looks pretty interesting.
I'm surprised. You're always so articulate and knowledgeable, I thought you were older.
As for me, I'm only 8.5 months older than you.
Ageist.
Ageist.
Lol! I don't mind... in fact I'm rather flattered!
Actually if you haven't already figured out, I always take the oppurtunity to pounce on people who discriminate against the young.
I don't have a problem if someone talks about young people as if they were older, that's really something I want to see more of! Respecting everyone equally regardless of age.
Respecting everyone equally regardless of age.
‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.’
- United States Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776
I'm surprised. You're always so articulate and knowledgeable, I thought you were older.
Well, I always hope to live up to the quality of this board and of TOSOTT (although I post there more infrequently). I see no point in posting rubbish when I am capable of posting something worthwhile (although I am the first to admit I have made my fair share of "oops" posts - as you so kindly pointed out me not noticing the Long Island Expressway!) I guess it rather shows that I shall be studying Archaeology & Ancient History from September...
As for me, I'm only 8.5 months older than you.
It seems like there's a healthy proportion of young railfans here! I too was somewhat deceived by the knowledgeability of people on this board. Once I have enough cash to do it, I'll get across the sea and hopefully meet some of my fellow railfans in NYC - equally, I would be most glad to be visited here in Birmingham (where it will take any sane person 20 minutes to realise that the Metro isn't very good to say the least and leap on the 10:30 to Marylebone to see a real city!)
He's BRITISH!
-Hank
Alright, I'll fess up, five months younger than you, James, just another obnoxious teenager, oh well I'm almost done with it.
Alright, I'll fess up, five months younger than you, James,
So many railfans about my age here - I actually could never have guessed!
just another obnoxious teenager,
Nah - you're a railfan!
Remember that as a railfan, you have a sense of history plus a sense of ideals - in my biased opinion this is most of what is needed for civilization to triumph over obnoxiousness, although I often wonder if this is just wishful thinking on my part!
oh well I'm almost done with it.
Almost done? There should be a good sixty years more with the railroad for you - and me - and Acela - and American Pig - and Pete - and...
Remember that as a railfan, you have a sense of history plus a sense of ideals
... actually, some don't, as you would soon find out. There's definitely some railfans who like the fast and flashy (AcelaExpress2005) and there are other ones who insist that only the old dinasours had class (Jersey Mike in relation to signalling equipment)...
But I agree, a sense of history is very important when developing anything new. That's the British in me. I learned to look in the past and discover the strengths and weaknesses of the old school. Then I became American, I learned to look to the future and embrace new technology where the risks are reasonable and returns are real, beyond the "wow factor".
Almost done? There should be a good sixty years more with the railroad for you - and me - and Acela - and American Pig - and Pete - and...
... you didn't mention me. I am beginning to feel old. *sigh* I don't think I would want to be 17 again, but it's alarming to feel that there is a distinct generation of people behind me and I am no longer always the youngest one by default...
AEM7
But I agree, a sense of history is very important when developing anything new. That's the British in me. I learned to look in the past and discover the strengths and weaknesses of the old school. Then I became American, I learned to look to the future and embrace new technology where the risks are reasonable and returns are real, beyond the "wow factor".
Exactly. If only (Fill in a railroad company name, American or British) could see that these days...
you didn't mention me.
Oops, sheer oversight! I read the post saying you were 22 immediately after I'd posted that! So:
There should be a good sixty years more with the railroad for Wdobner - and me - and Acela - and American Pig - and Pete - and AEM7 - and...
Any more takers?
Noticed a couple more...
There should be a good sixty years more with the railroad for Wdobner - and me - and Acela - and American Pig - and Pete - and AEM7 - and the Rockaway Kid - and R30 - and...
Any more takers?
For some reason I thought you were a little older.
That's cuz he's British, and doesn't talk very much. I used to be like that when I was 15 and British. Now I am 22 and American, and I have become loud and brash.
AEM7
That's cuz he's British, and doesn't talk very much. I used to be like that when I was 15 and British. Now I am 22 and American, and I have become loud and brash.
I always thought I talked rather a lot! Perhaps my reactions are less loud and brash than some other people's - I try not to get carried away, although when it's to do with trains that can be difficult!
However, it is a fair point that my perspective is somewhat different. I admire much that is American and quite often want the same back in blighty, but I am conscious that I am (and I sometimes think unfortunately) not an American. I too may become 22 some day.
AEM7 is 22.
Well seems we have alot of young people on this board, including myself.
i guess that i am the youngest at 14.3
Nope!
are you younger?
yep! 8-13-88
i have the worst birthdate 2-29-88, its annoying to be called 3 all of the time. also that means that i never got to ride any Pre Goh cars except for the R44
My birthdate is 7/17/87.
How do you have your birthday when, it's not a leap year????
Feb 28/Mar 1, i get to decide ¦ )
Kool
Well seems we have alot of young people on this board, including myself.
From what I've gathered here and on other forums, it seems almost as if railfans tend to be either (a) under 25 or (b) over 50. In other words, there's a sort of "lost generation" between the ages of 25 and 50 (these are, of course, only rough age points).
I suspect that in the case of New York-area railfans, the gap can be explained by the fact that people whose first subway experiences came during the graffiti and "deferred maintenance" era of the 1970's and early 1980's did not develop a liking for the system, an antipathy which in many cases has carried over to affect transit systems in general. Younger people of course came along after the subway had become much better, while the over-50's remember the halcyon days before graffiti.
As a member of the lost generation (of its upper half, alas), I may seem an exception to the rule, but it's worth noting that I had very little experience with the subway, or indeed of any transit system, until I started working in Manhattan in the spring of 1994. Had I ridden the subway during the bad old days, I'd probably hate it too.
In other words, there's a sort of "lost generation" between the ages of 25 and 50 (these are, of course, only rough age points).
Your explanation may make sense for the NYC Transit fans, but I have found the explanation also more generally true for railfans in general. For general railfans, I have an alternative explanation.
If you were between 25 and 50, you were born sometime between 1975 and 1950. This would mean a set of formative/teenage years between roughly 1965 and 1990. If we take a quick look through time, we realize that the 1960s was when the private auto as we know it took on a modern sleek image and the interstate roads improved to a point where one could take transcontinental drives without having to worry about the fact that it is a "transcontinental drive". Also, the 1960s was a time of boom, when the automobiles as we know it became truely affordable to the rank-and-file. Of course, there were recessions during the 1980s and the 1990s, but these weren't as severe as the 1920s or the postwar depression.
Now onto aviation. The jet aeroplane was popularized between about 1960 and 1970 -- after the failure of the Comet, the Boeing 707 didn't appear until the 1960s and it wasn't until 1970s when the jet-aeroplane became a mass-market item. I bet you if you looked at the 25-50 age range, you will find a great deal of turbofan-fans.
And look at what happened to the railroads during that 1965-1990 period? Penn-Central was 1968-1970, but of course service had been terrible for quite a few years before then. In the 1970s, several more freight railroad went bankrupt and the IC was in constant reorganization (there was even a talk of a FarmRail). In the 1980s, Conrail pulled it through, but only after much abandonment. On the passenger side, there was constant cuts to Amtrak service; the passenger rail maps were more sparse in 1980 than they are today.
So, why the sudden surge in the popularity of the train after 1990? That, I cannot explain. Possible explanations are urban congestion and the resurgence of urban transit and commuter rail. I think the later generation of railfans are more transitfans than real railfans like myself. However it is a welcome change to see the "cool" factor go from having your own car at 17 to having your own subway pass. Of course, many more people are into high speed rail now than before, thanks to schemes like the Metroliner (1969) and the Acela. It's hard to understand why the Metroliner failed to capture the imagination of a generation of kids though.
AEM7
actually a continual recruitment/indoctrination of cadres is necessary. I put effort into helping to raise 'railfans' among the children I was involved with who are now thirty plus--took them on opening days of BART service, steam excursions, AND just down to the station to see ATK trains come and go.
Result--the step daughter in NY took her boyfriend on a trip w/ 614 several years back. And her brother and I took their little cousins (9,11) on a short steam excursion on CalTrain this March. AEM 7 is correct that the general social millieu was not sustaining, although the sales figures for model RR magazines are ncouraging
I'm part of that "missing generation" and was a kid in the 70's, and a teenager in the 80's. But it's true, the subway was a total disaster in the 70's when I was a kid. However I remember the gradual improvement during the 80's on the trains first, and during the 90's at a lot of the stations. Now at 31 I have seen the subway at it's worst, and now see it as the class system it has become again.
I'm sure the subway is not at it's "best", that was probably before my time, however I also enjoyed a lot of variety also. I grew up with the R10's, R16's, and the R27-30's, and then the R32, 38, 40, 42, 44, and 46's when they were covered in grafitti, as they improved and cleaned up in the 80's, and finally then all rebuilt like they are today. The younger railfans though should be happy that at least they had the pleasure of knowing the last group of rebuilt cars, because it does add variety. Just think of the next generation that will only know the R142's and R143's, and R160's that all look (or will look) almost the same. In your later years you will be talking about the current fleet the way my generation talks about the R10, 16, 27, 30, and the current fleet before it was rebuilt, because that is what we grew up with...or the older generation that talks about the LoV's, BMT standards, etc.
You know you are getting old when you remember the R32/38/40/42's when they were brand new. In a few years they'll be gone with the R32's outlasting them by a good many years.
Nah, you're old when you curse the ORIGINAL redbirds (17's and such) for killing off your favored LoV's and can't imagine a Brooklyn elevated without Q cars. THAT'S old. :)
Does that mean me? GETTING old? Please...I've been there already. If nothing else I still have the eye for young ladies but then there's reality even if a lot of them smile back.Some daysI feel great so it isn't over yet.I hate to tell you how much I cursed all the new R-17 and up as they were comig in; Pelham didn't bother me too much but when they hit my beloved BWAY-7th AVE EXPRESS with R21' guess I knew the time was coming and it did fast enough. High-V's, then Flivvers,finally the Low-V and Steinway. So I moved over to the IND then BMT, actually the merged B division to salvage what I could with the R1-9. What's spooky is that the 2nd half of the replacement fleet is soon to be history, and the first half gone for how long? 15 years and more? 1955 and the brand new R17's---that's 47 years ago. Food for thought---but who knows you and I may be around long enough to see the R142 retired!
Heh. Looking forward to it (and yeah, you're a fossil just like me bro) ... but I s'pose it don't matter much if you can still find your brake handle in your pants when ya needs it. :)
You're getting REALLY old when you lament the passing of the horse cars!
Heh. Good one. Now THAT was before my time. :)
By a few days maybe?
A few at least ... but for what it's worth, we still have horsecars in revenue service upstate. (and we wonder why we can't attract them "hi-tek jobz")
Everything except the wooden gate cars is new.
;-) Andrew
I fall into that category.
"I've fallen and I can't get up" ... serves you RIGHT, mofo. :)
Oh, a wise guy, huh? Wake up and go to sleep!:-) Neener-neener.
OK, I stepped right into that.
You know you are getting old when you remember the R32/38/40/42's when they were brand new. In a few years they'll be gone with the R32's outlasting them by a good many years.
That's interesting. Probably I'll state the same thing 40 years from now when I remember the R142's and R143's being new! Are there any chances of them lasting as long as the R32's?
>>>Are there any chances of them lasting as long as the R32's? <<<
IMO, a VERY good chance.
Peace,
ANDEE
(>>>Are there any chances of them lasting as long as the R32's? <<<
IMO, a VERY good chance.)
They'd better. In fact, all post 1980 cars have to last at least 50 years, because that's how long the MTA is borrowing (and re-borrowing) for under Mr. Pataki, whose followers expect to die out or move out before he bankrupts the state.
A decade ago, I was told that the expected life of a car was 30 years. Then they upped it to 40. Now it's 50. A combination of good maintenance and excessive debt.
The R32s definately have 50 in them. They'll be working rush hours on the last non-CBTC lines. I expect to be riding R46s on the F to work in 2030 at age 69 -- they'll retrofit for CBTC, if they have to.
U.. know.. U .. R .. "Getting Old" etc............
when ....U..remember when there was a RAILFAN WINDOW on every train
>>>>>>>>BUT NOW THEY ...R...ALL GONE !!!!!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<
no they arent
(You know you are getting old when you remember the R32/38/40/42's when they were brand new. In a few years they'll be gone with the R32's outlasting them by a good many years.)
Those who remember when the subways were good before they got bad ARE old. Those who remember when they were bad, like me, are getting old. I just say a NYCT public affairs memo in response to a query as to when the subway "hit bottom." They identified a day in 1981 when one-third of the subway cars were unavailable due to maintenance woes as the bottom. I showed up in 1983.
I can go one better- I remember when the Low-V and High V cars were just being replaced by the R series cars (17?21/22?) which are now also gone as are most of the redbirds whioch I rode when they were brand new.
gone is the railfan window too !!!!!!!!!!
>>> I can go one better- I remember when the Low-V and High V cars were just being replaced by the R series cars (17?21/22?) <<<
That's not as far back as when the Lo-V and Hi-V weren't being replaced by R series cars.
Tom
I'm getting that same feeling too, now that the "Redbirds" are being retired. I find it hard to believe that I'm 39 years old and I can remember when the subways were all filled with graffiti. I can remember when the M-1 and more importantly the M-3 cars on Metro-North were brand new. I can remember when Westchester County got their fleet of RTS II buses and now they're all gone. I still remember when Westchester County got their first fleet of articulated buses and now they've all been replaced. I'm getting gray hairs in my beard and the sides. My hair on top of my head is thinning. I'm still in great physical condition at 5' 9" 145 lbs. +/-. I have a few aches and pains, but they're not very bad. The worst is from my minor cleft palate which I always had. Despite my age, I'm as limber as a teenager and I'm as hyper as one too. If you're in good physical condition getting old isn't that bad as long as you don't have any major health issues AND YOU CAN STILL ENJOY BEING A RAILFAN!!
#3 West End Jeff
You know you're getting old when all the rolling stock is younger than you are. I share the year of birth (1959) with the oldest Redbirds still around, the R26s- and their numbers are rapidly diminshing.
You know you're getting old when a stainless steel air-conditioned train was regarded as a big deal.
You know you're getting old when you refer to lines by their historical names rather than their route number or letter. Likewise, if you use the original supplementary street names instead of the numbers at those hybrid Queens stations.
You know you're getting old when you can vocally imitate an R1-9- or Triplex, Standard or Lo-V.
You know you're getting old when you can remember dreading having to ride the IRT in the summer.
You know you're getting old when you can remember candy machines on the platforms.
You know you're getting old when, upon seeing pictures of pre-war car interiors, you fondly remember getting off the train with the pattern from the rattan seats making a clear impression on your skin.
You know you're getting old :
...when they would change the size of tokens when a fare increase happened.
... when you saw orignal pre-war equipment being replace by new fangled SMEE cars. Now those replacement SMEE's are being replaced by New Tech cars.
...when all cars had fans in the summer.
...you stood in front of a railfan window that opened for a real blast of air.
... when destination signs on SMEE's lit up green.
... when there weren't the same amount of timers they have today.
... when windows were either clean or dirty and not scratched.
Bill "Newkirk"
...you walked on wooden "el" platforms that creaked.
I definately remember the arrival of the R-42s. My father owned a TV store on Brighton Beach Ave and when I got home from school, I'd usually stay in the store with him until he closed (about 6pm). I recallw atching and listening to many a R-42 arriving at Brighton Beach, and how "different" they sounded with the air conditioners running ... I used to imitate that all the time!
--Mark
I used to imitate the R-1/9s myself. The bull and pinion gear sounds, mostly, with a "tch-sssss" thrown in here and there.
I'm just barely in that missing generation (28 in two months), and I think you're right. I hated the subway growing up. It was noisy, filthy, disgusting. (I was very much a busfan back then, though.) I only have two specific memories of the subway from my youth. First was the time I was on a northbound 1 with my mother. We pulled into 72nd on the express track. She told me that we'd be running express to 96th (see? nothing's really changed!); until then I had no idea that trains didn't just use arbitrary tracks. Second was the time my mother and I were on the express again at, I think, 72nd. Something seemed to be going wrong, so we got on a local. We got off at 42nd and the express limped in a minute later amidst a plume of smoke. I guess something had gone wrong.
I remember when the R-62's and R-62A's first started coming in. What a wonderful relief! I never knew there were different models of the older cars -- all I knew is that they were covered in graffiti and that half the door panels didn't open.
My initial foray into railfanning was in 1989 or 1990. One day I came home to greet two policemen in my apartment. You guessed it, my father can be a wee bit overprotective at times. I missed the Manhattan Bridge flips of the 80's but I did enjoy riding the N over the bridge in 1990.
I remember the first time in the late 80's that I "discovered" the then "abandoned" bridge station at Canal. I thought that was the coolest thing (although I did very vaguely remember riding the N with my father, from Coney Island to that station in the 70's.) Anyway, it's around the time that I was just starting to "like" the subway and was all excited when I heard that the N would be running through it again. So I went there all ready to catch the N over the bridge one day and there were posters up at Canal that the station would be closed indefinitely. (It couldn't have been open that long to N trains in the early 90's, before closing for emergency repairs) So I left disappointed.....and didn't get to do it until the W started running.
Sorry about that. I think I was there the day it opened -- the first week, at least. It was open for about three months.
At the same time, I also remember long waits for the R at 8th Street.
I'm 31. I started riding the subway by myself in 1987 or so. So to me the B,D,N,Q, and R all go together, the K is on Eighth Avenue, and the N and R just switched Queens termnials.
:-) Andrew
I'm 22 also. Gonna be 23 in 2 months. SN says it all!
#1979 7 Flushing Local
make it 3.
i'm 15, also
"I'm twice your age!"
Is *that* all????
Well, at least I am not twice *your* age!
Though getting closere to it : (
Elias
lol....each year seems to go faster and faster! Sort of like starting out as a local....and it switches to the express after a certain age......
Also ME, though I have the railfan knowleadge of a 20 year old. I whopped a T/O's ass on NHRR in trivia. He said I did my "homework".
Also same as me, though I have the railfan knowleadge of a 20 year old. I whopped a T/O's ass on NHRR in trivia. He said I did my "homework".
for starters:
- Acela was a stupid name to begin with. I mean, what's the signifcance?
- Whatever happened to AR service? Weren't wwe supposed to see the AR tag exteded to the empire, and Keystone corridors, also?
I say, have "Acela" as abrandname for the NE, and rename the AE's METROLINERS
I must say, Acela Express is real sh*tty name for premier rail service.
Acela Super Express is cornier?
Well have you rode the Acela??????????? The Acela Express is the King of all trains!
Do I detect a bit of bias here?
No doubt about it. He loves Acela very much.
Chaohwa
So do I, actually. I like the name, I like the paint scheme (not on the AEM-7 but on the Acela trainset), and I like the marketing.
Pity about the cost-effectiveness, the price of the tickets, the practicality of the trainset's interior, and the fact that they decided to call the Northeast Direct the "Acela Regional".
AEM7
I agree with you. I prefer the Acela Regional trains to be called "NortheastDirect". Hopefully the old names like "Yankee Clipper", "Senator", "Congressional", or "Mayflower" will be back for the heritage of this wonderful route between DC and Boston via New York.
Chaohwa
What is Gunn trying to do? What better name can he think of anyway? The Acela has created a large impression on the public already, and planned to gradually replace the Metroliners.
Besides, it's painted onto all of the locomotives that bear the name. Why go through a hectic process to try and change it?
And the money involed in removing it!.....and what they spend on the name to begin with!
David Gunn is the kind of guy who changes everything. Wherever he goes he brings in an axe and starts all over. He did it in NYC, he did it in Toronto. The problem is that AMTRAK does not have money to start all over in the marketing sense. I think the ACELA name should only be used for the premium high speed trains. For conventional NEC service another name is needed, perhaps simply called "Amfleet Service" or some catchy phrase.
Nah Amfleet Service is not good.
BTW, what is the pronuciation for Acela?
Aye-sell-a
Uh-sell-a
Ays-la
The second one.
Are you sure it isn't AK-sell-la
no it's Uh-Cell-Uh
No it's Uh-Cella
Yep, Amtrak's website had an audio clip on how to pronounce it when it was brand new. Uh-sel-uh it is.
Mark
For conventional NEC service another name is needed, perhaps simply called "Amfleet Service" or some catchy phrase.
Yeah. It's called the Metroliner Service between New York and Washington, the Clocker between NYP and PHL, and Northeast Direct between Boston and Newport News.
It's not really confusing to have three names. After all, they had the 20th Century Ltd., the Broadway Ltd., etc...
AEM7
I really liked the individual names. The Senator, The Merchants Limited and the like.
It's not really confusing to have three names. After all, they had the 20th Century Ltd., the Broadway Ltd., etc...
The only difference is that the Bway Ltd, and the 20th Cen. Ltd were different railroad companies, so they needed different names. Although you are right, it doesn't matter if they had different names for the various services.
Jersey Mike posted a lot of this article earlier. Phil left out an important part (although in his defense, it may not have been in the article he read) Gunn wants to bring back the INDIVIDUAL TRAIN NAMES to the NEC!
-Hank
I am beginning to like this David Gunn guy. Remember my post about Northeast Directs, Metroliners and Clockers? I posted that before I saw this thread.
So there's going to be:
Twilight Shoreliner (sorry, I prefer that to the "Night Owl")
Morning Congressional
Afternoon Congressional
Western Massachusettian (??? -- Inland Route Train?)
Fast Mail (#13?)
What else? You guys come up with some names!
AEM7
I like the names Amtrak have now.
Mayflower
Yankee Clipper
Congressional
Bankers
New Yorker
........., and so on.
I have to go back to lookup my older Amtrak timetables to see all the names.
Chaohwa
Even more confusion. I liked having basic services without conflicting names. While it makes sense to rename Metroliner to Acela Express so that people catch on with the idea it is newer and faster, to change all the names does lead to confusion. The Acela Regional idea was plain stupid, I have people come tell me "I am taking the Acela next week" and when they come back, they say "Oh, it was the regional" and I have to say to them "Yeah, you just got some old, refurbished train".
I am beginning to like this David Gunn guy.
And remember what he did when he was in charge of the NY subway. He took the bull by the horns and decided he would erradicate grafitti during his "rule". And he was very sucessful. Actually the "redbirds" red is know also as "David Gunn" red.
Hmmm -- anybody else think Acela would look nice in red?
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HELL NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! THAT UGLY A** COLOR ON MY ACELA, I'LL KILL AMTRAK ACELA DESIGNERS IF THEY EVER PUT THE ACELA IN RED!
So I take it you don't like the idea................
Get Richard Branson to buy them. He paints everything Red. I like the sound of Virgin Acela too. It makes it even more attractive for us to want to be the first to "soil" its engine room floors.
AEM7
I like the sound of Virgin Acela too.
Have you ever ridden a Virgin Train? They're invariably late, except when they're cancelled, they always seem to break down, and their fares are extortionate! Plus they use the two ugliest stations in England - eusless London Euston and that grim hole Birmingham New Street, the one station on Earth where an MSG on top of it would be an improvement!
Have you ever ridden a Virgin Train? They're invariably late, except when they're cancelled,
Richard makes his mistakes. Do you remember the first phase of Virgin Atlantic, when they will charge you GBP 660 to fly LGW/EWR and refuse to match prices from other carriers? Then he smartened up. He's not always the #1 man for operations, we knew that already.
But Sir Richard Branson is the ONLY person in the entireity of the United Kingdom to recognize that a REAL high-speed rail network is needed, and has enough credibility to even SUGGEST that he will build a 225mph by-pass between Peterborough and Newcastle. Even though Sir Richard was wrong about the "revolution" vs "evolution" debate (Chris Green put him straight on that one), he is still the only person with any real vision. I agree that the ECML HS by-pass is probably not where the real money needs to be spent, but hell, he at least recognized that money needed to be spent and it has to go SOMEWHERE -- just SOMEWHERE. The problem with Britain is that there is too much talk, too much debate, too much analysis and as a result NOTHING EVER HAPPENS. Now you look at the Acela scheme, you know that's not where or how the money should have gone, but wait -- MASSACHUSETTS PULLED IT OFF. They spent the money. Did England spend the money? The last time British Rail spent any real money was the ECML electrification completed in 1991.
Too bad Sir Richard doesn't run the SRA. Well if we put him in SRA, that will suffociate him. Instead SRA should just sit back and let Virgin run the show.
AEM7
But Sir Richard Branson is the ONLY person in the entireity of the United Kingdom to recognize that a REAL high-speed rail network is needed
True - and he wants to provide it by sticking a 6 minute stop on the Coventry - Birmingham NS Local at International, then doing horrible things on the Wolverhampton Line. At least nothing ever gets done, or West Midlands local service would be even worse than at present.
The only line with room for extra tracks out of Birmingham is via Solihull and Leamington. If that line were quadrupled, as it was before Beeching, the shorter route to London would again be the quicker one in the timetable (it is already often the quicker in practice). The problem with that alignment is that it would almost definitely spell an end to expresses at Euston, a cause to which Branson is committed.
I agree that the ECML HS by-pass is probably not where the real money needs to be spent
I approve of the by-pass scheme, but it would be better if it branched to give High Speed access between the North and the important Midland cities of Leicester and Birmingham. I don't see the point of having a High Speed line which stops at Peterborough - it'd be the one of the first East Coast stops I'd eliminate.
MASSACHUSETTS PULLED IT OFF. They spent the money. Did England spend the money? The last time British Rail spent any real money was the ECML electrification completed in 1991.
Absolutely.
Too bad Sir Richard doesn't run the SRA. Well if we put him in SRA, that will suffociate him. Instead SRA should just sit back and let Virgin run the show.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - the Chiltern Railway and the Island Line are too good to be put in Branson's pocket! I'd rather have a real railway than a Virgin one! The SRA may be bumbling idiots who don't know what the word strategic means, but I wouldn't want it run by that disaster of a railway in a million years!
True - and he wants to provide it by sticking a 6 minute stop on the Coventry - Birmingham NS Local at International, then doing horrible things on the Wolverhampton Line.
I see that you obviously had some grief with Virgin. I suppose I see where you are coming from, if you lived in the area. I spent some time living in between Edinburgh and Glasgow, while my girlfriend-of-sorts lived down in Oxfordshire (actually, right in the Chilterns). All this time, I can't say that Virgin trains had ever particularly upset me, other than one time when I discovered that before 1000 weekday out of Euston the tickets are all ridiculously priced (but that was a business trip, so the company paid for it and I didn't really care).
Well besides that, I'm partial to Virgin if only because class 87/0's and Mk.II coaches in Virgin colors hold fond memories for me. That was the only time ever I had permitted myself to be driven at 109mph down any highway anywhere in the world, making the Euston-Oxfordshire trip in less than 45 mins. Thames trains is no competition under those circumstances, really.
At least nothing ever gets done, or West Midlands local service would be even worse than at present.
Here, you're being a true Brit -- loyal to your local cause. Think big! Really, the things you should be worrying is not the one or two stops in the West Midlands but transcontinental freight flows and European Passenger Services. These are the things that will make or break the railroad and make or break Britain as a modern industrial nation. Not that I am in favour of the European Union but these infighting and regional undermining must stop. There is a school of thought that in HSR, the access time is far more important than the line-haul time, meaning that really the Birmingham-London trip only needs to run at 125mph max to retain a good market share; what they really need to do is to do something about access at the London end (so you dno't have to transfer to the Tube) and do something about the access at the Birmingham end. Remember, if you can improve the journey time by 15 minutes through better access (e.g. Park & Rides, or simply stations downtown closer to where people live or work), that's equivalent to raising average speed from 80mph to 105mph.
The only line with room for extra tracks out of Birmingham is via Solihull and Leamington.
I suppose your knowledge of the Quail is better than mine; I haven't looked at my LMR Quail for years...
definitely spell an end to expresses at Euston, a cause to which Branson is committed.
Sir Richard is understandably guardnig his "hub" at Euston. Of course, his next step would be to extend his "hub" through the city into many more communities. Airline people often forget that a railroad hub doesn't have to be a "railport". An entire LINE could be a rail hub.
AEM7
I spent some time living in between Edinburgh and Glasgow, while my girlfriend-of-sorts lived down in Oxfordshire (actually, right in the Chilterns).
Ouch, not a fun journey! North of Chesterfield, I'd rather use the train, South of Chesterfield driving's tempting.
All this time, I can't say that Virgin trains had ever particularly upset me, other than one time when I discovered that before 1000 weekday out of Euston the tickets are all ridiculously priced
And even when they drop from the morning peak rip-off levels, they still cost about 50% more than going via High Wycombe and about double via Northampton. You'd be mad to go via Northampton (it takes forever), but via High Wycombe is entirely practical.
The time they really upset me was when I was trying to get from Lichfield Trent Valley to London - about five trains a day each way stop at LTV, although many more pass through without stopping on the busy 4 track Trent Valley Line. The train I was waiting for was of course 2 and a half hours late at Lichfield, then the Virgin Train in front of us (which of course was the last of ten which had passed me on the platform at LTV) broke down at Tamworth (Low Level). This was allegedly the morning train, so of course the buffet car was closed.
I also was on a Virgin Train which suffered a partial brake failure and made a seemingly indefinite stop at Gloucester, one stop before the connections to the South Wales expresses at Bristol Parkway. As a result I ended up getting a Sprinter from Gloucester to Cardiff Central (Caerdydd Canolog), before finding out that they'd got the Virgin Train to Bristol Parkway and it was now ******ing up the First Great Western South Wales Expresses. So I had to get on another Sprinter around the coast to Neath (Castell Nedd).
Then did you hear about the Newcastle to Birmingham service which ran out of diesel at Water Orton (eight miles short of Birmingham)?
The frequency of incidents like these on Virgin Trains, make some famous John McEnroe quotes spring to mind:
"You guys are the pits of the world!"
And for those stranded at Milton Keynes Central after the catenary broke:
"You can not be serious!"
Here, you're being a true Brit -- loyal to your local cause. Think big! Really, the things you should be worrying is not the one or two stops in the West Midlands but transcontinental freight flows and European Passenger Services.
Transcontinental freight uses the M6 motorway - rail freight seems just about dead. The government let the London & Continental Railway cannibalise our trains for parts, which gave them an excuse not to run our European passenger services. The Coventry - New Street - Wolverhampton route is one of the busiest commuter lines in the country. As a result, it should be dedicated to commuter use West of Coventry. If you saw the traffic every morning on the roads between Wolverhampton and Birmingham, you would see why the commuter rail service is necessary. Plus it's not just "one or two stops" - here is the list of stations inconvenienced:
(Shrewsbury, Wellington, Oakengates, Telford Central, Shifnal, Cosford, Albrighton, Codsall, Bilbrook - who thanks to Virgin have direct local service to Walsall instead of Birmingham and Coventry)
(Stafford, Penkridge and three local stops in Bushbury where Virgin vetoed the construction)
Wolverhampton [High Level], Coseley, Tipton [Owen Street] (Yes, that's where the Taliban the Yanks have in Cuba are from), Dudley Port, Sandwell & Dudley [or "Oldbury Bromford Lane" as everyone calls it as Sandwell doesn't exist and it is nowhere near Dudley!], Smethwick Galton Bridge (Downstairs), Smethwick Rolfe Street, (Birmingham Saint Vincent Street - vetoed by Virgin Trains - the people of inner city Birmingham have some very choice words for this decision), Birmingham New Street, (Birmingham Curzon Street - another Virgin veto), Adderley Park, Stechford, Lea Hall, Marston Green, Birmingham International, Hampton-in-Arden, Berkswell, Tile Hill, Canley, Coventry.
So thanks to Virgin Trains, commuters at thirty-four local stations in the Midlands are inconvenienced. This is an underestimate. The local stations to Tamworth and to King's Norton via King's Heath have also had their re-opening vetoed by Virgin. The busiest commuter line in the Midlands, Redditch - Birmingham - Lichfield, is restricted to 4 tph, thanks to Virgin. Then they have the cheek to charge over the odds for tickets for precisely the people they are inconveniencing! Virgin should stick to the Trent Valley line. They should certainly get out of Birmingham, and I don't think Wolverhampton and Coventry would object too much for losing this company which is wrecking our commuter rail network and turning the A41, A435, A45 and M6 into the greatest parking lots in England.
I suppose your knowledge of the Quail is better than mine; I haven't looked at my LMR Quail for years...
Room for expansion is very limited in the Midlands, except for routes via Leamington. Leamington to Coventry needs its second track back so the stations at Kenilworth and Milverton can re-open. Leamington to Birmingham Moor St needs its third and fourth tracks back (they're already there between Tyseley and Small Heath) so express service can resume.
Sir Richard is understandably guardnig his "hub" at Euston. Of course, his next step would be to extend his "hub" through the city into many more communities.
It is understandable, if one of the greatest limitations on rail in the UK.
Airline people often forget that a railroad hub doesn't have to be a "railport". An entire LINE could be a rail hub.
Hopefully this is what the Paddington - Stratford (East London) and Woolwich Crossrail will do. If that is successful, it'll be followed by a King's X - Victoria Crossrail.
I wonder what happened to that plan for an El over the Thames. The disused line from the GW Main Line at Southall to the Thames at Brentford just looks too tempting!
You actually think it would nice that way? I think it goes against part of the Acela marketing scheme.
Like a redbird color. Or the R-28/30s color! Or the 80's Red White Blue design.
They used to have the indivudual names until recently. If you get out your 1999 Timetable you will see that the NE Direct Service trains had a little italicized name under the train number in the timetable. For example Train 75 was "The Patriot".
What is Gunn trying to do? Can he think of a better name for it? The Acela has created a large impression on the public already, and planned to gradually replace the Metroliners.
Besides, it's painted onto all of the locomotives that bear the name. Why go through a hectic process to try and change it?
Cause AEM 7s look ugly in acela colors.
I wonder what AEM7 has to say to that, hmmmmm...
The AEM-7 looks good in that Paint Scheme, but they made it to plain,
now they really did a great job with the AMD-103 in the Acela Paint Scheme, they need to add more into the AEM-7 to make it truly look great.
I wonder what AEM7 has to say to that, hmmmmm...
Just Highballed in from Hahvahd Yahd.
The AEM-7 looks good in that Paint Scheme, but they made it to plain,
I never thought that the AEM7 looked that bad in the Acela colour scheme even though many railfans thought it was ugly. I personally prefer the NEDirect scheme though. The NEDirect scheme was bold and made a statement, whilst the Acela scheme had class (well, at least it does on the locomotives -- I think the cyan-and-green coaching stock scheme is awful).
I think they should be doing more to differentiate their service, so Amfleet II's should be painted in an "intercity" colour, while the Empire service coaches should have their own scheme, and the Metroliners should have the Phase IV (NEDirect) scheme, while the high-speed tilting Acelas should retain the Acela scheme. I love to see a variety of colors. I think that some AEM-7s should keep the Phase III scheme (that looked good too). Maybe they can put Phase III onto the Keystone services, Phase IV onto the NEDirect services and Phase V/Acela onto the Clockers, or something. Obviously sometimes you are going to see the service with the wrong color loco beacuse of cross-pooling, but at least you can try to give each service an identity.
now they really did a great job with the AMD-103 in the Acela Paint Scheme,
I agree, although I don't think all Genesis's should be repainted. Again, I think Empire Corridor P-32's should retain the Phase III Northeast Corridor scheme; the Florida Service and Inland Route Services should have Phase V; the Intercity trains should have Phase IV.
AEM-7
Besides, it's painted onto all of the locomotives that bear the name. Why go through a hectic process to try and change it?
Because the branding "Acela Regional" and "Acela Commuter" was basically a mistake. It undid some of the market differentiation they were able to do with a new trainset. Gunn is correct on this point.
AEM7
Kind of a big rift to pick it out of the public, but if it will help AMTRAK, so be it. I won't like the feeling of this.
I've just updated my site, added about 30 new images of the Memorial Day D-Type fantrip under "Old Days on the BMT"
Enjoy!
-Larry
http://subway.com.ru/
WoW! They become older with each yaer! Where are those cars now?
Last I saw them they were in CI Yard. Saw them from the Belt Pkwy.
Everything gets older with each year. Everyone does, too.:-)
i assume other popular tourist area stations such as herald square and times square token booths. i plan on heading to GCT to get the map after work if thats the easiest location to get it.
Write a letter to MTA customer services to ask for maps. They always give multilingual maps.
Chaohwa
no text.
I got one from the Donnell Library on 53rd between 5th and 6th, across the street from the former and future MOMA.
Call the NYCT Customer Assistance line at (718) 330-3322. They will mail you one.
Why isn't there a Direct Train from NYC to Los Angeles without switching at Chicago?
East of the Mississippi, in the northern half of the US, Amtrak uses equipment which is lower than Superliner cars to clear tunnels and overpasses. West of Chicago, double-decker Superliners have sufficient clearance to go anywhere.
So why isn't the switching done in Albany, NY and Harrisburg, PA?
Does Albany, NY have the Clearance to accomadate the Superliners?
Yes
What do you think Alfred P. Perlman Yard at Selkirk is for?
Amtrak treats Chicago as a major hub. Like airlines, using hub can save operating and maintenance costs.
Chaohwa
"Amtrak treats Chicago as a major hub."
Yes, but they do it stupidly.
And they *think* they *are* an airport what with their STUPID boarding proceedures.
At least NYP does it with class.
The Train is on Track 5! All Aboard!
Elias
The New York Central ran trains from New York to Chicago, as did the PRR, Erie, and others. Amtrak began with the remnants of what it inherited; it did not start from scratch with somebody like Elias thinking up the most efficient way to route the trains.
Note: this is not a flame of Elias; he frequently posts his ideas of how a particular route or system could be designed efficiently.
Actually, Train #49 was taken off and reinstated several times during Amtrak's tenure. As was train #41. If you think about Amtrak's history, there were several opportunities when it could have made the decision to move away from PRR/NYC's networks. It didn't. And it didn't introduce high-liners on the East Coast, except on the Capitol. The reason? Equipment utilization. It had little to do with clearances or history.
AEM7
Hehehehe.... I don't know enough about the varrious ROWs speeds, clearances and other issues to *route* AMTK trains. Building something new from scratch is differeent.
As far as scheduling.... AMTK's Chicago is the pits.
Trains should leave NYP around 1600 or 1630 hours to arrive in CHI by 0800 the next morning.
Trains should arrive in Chicago in the morning and leave in the afternoon or evening. AMTK trains operate so far behind schedule that a two or three hour layover in Chicago is not sufficient. Schedule the darn things to arrive before 10 AM and start the outbount parade around 1600. That big Union Station ought to have a museum, and shops to occupy people who have to wait, and do not wish to wantder around the city. As for myself, I love that city, and enjoy layover times there.
People taking long distance trains are not interested in speed, they are interested in convience and accomodation. Empire Builder, for ecample ought to leave MSP in the evening and arrive in CHI in the morning. It would be nice to have a layover in MSP of several hours so you could visit the Mall of America or something.
Perhpas another layover at Glaicer park, and then time things to pass throught the Cascades in daylight, rahter than at night. So the run takes three days instead of two, it has a better chance of being on time, and that is more important (according to me).
Elias
You have to look at the pre-Amtrak passenger service. All railroads ended on the Mississippi. There some RR forwarded their cars to the other RR for service to the other coast. You have the Broadway Chief and the City of New York trains, as well as the Super Limited and the SunRise.
The only coast to coast service was in Canada.
(Names of trains were purposely twisted)
speaking of getting old!
Some of us actually remember when there were thru sleepers from NY-LA, NY-SF, Was-La, and NY-Texas points, DC to Texas points. When ATK took ober all of these were long gone. In turn the first ATK network did NOT have a 'Water Level Route' service. As to present car utilisation patterns, the trains are so slow and late that planning connections/thru equipment moves is dicey. There was talk of doing some consist swaps in CHGO in order to get better car utilisation. Others may have more facts. As maintenance facilities exist in CHGO, and is a major destination, it remains a better hub than many others
As to the clearance question, I have seen photos of Superliners under wire between Harrisburg and PHL, but I doubt the clearances of the Hudson and East River tunnels are sufficient. Clerly the tunnel from lower level Union Station in DC fits 'cause the Cardinal has been bilevel for some years. (no catenary)
i was just wondering why the platforms at 30th st are so long. were they ever fully utilized? not only does septa not use all of the platform thats not fenced off but then theres still more platform that is just slowly deteriorating. any info on septa/30th st/past philly commuter srvices would be helpful.
thanks.
i was just wondering why the platforms at 30th st are so long. were they ever fully utilized?
At one time, yes. There are also platforms at Newark Penn Station that are no longer used to their full extent but which were, once upon a time, when the mighty Pennsy ruled the rails. Long distance trains were often 22+ cars in length (including head end equipment) and, although the platform may not have been entirely dedicated to the passengers, the ends were used by baggage and mail services. At Newark, the west end of the platform is somewhat narrower; on the PRR's NE Corridor, most "head end" equipment was actually on the west end of the train, regardless of direction. I don't remember much about the layout of 30th Street to know if there are any differences in platform width there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That is a classic example of the "Philly Phorget". Its cheaper to fence it off than to tear it down.
As Anon said the 30th St. Upper was once used by long distance trains (Clockers for one) that were up to 22 cars long. Check out the platform length at Suburban Station for further evidence.
PRR did not route NYP-CHI trains into the present AMTK station (whatever youse guys call it down there), but stopped at 30th Street and then turned the corner for Harrisburg and points west.
AMTK, wanting to patronize only one station in Philly choose the other one, and they back the coaches from NYP across the state of NJ (which nobody wanted to *see* anyway into Phil, and then goes out forwards to H'bg and CHI.
Stupid.
Elias
30th St is the current Amtrak station. Many PRR east-west trains didn't call there but did stop at North Phila and Paoli (otherwise they'd have had to back in/out of 30th). Passengers had to use commuter trains to get between 30th and North Phila/Paoli to make the connections. At Paoli there are still the small waiting 'huts' at the various car locations for long-distance trains. Amtrak no longer uses them.
The platform layout at 30th also accommodated two trains at once, much like Suburban and Market East do now with their A and B locations. SEPTA does not do this at 30th hence there is no longer any need for the longer platforms. The longest SEPTA train that calls here is probably on the order of 5-6 cars.
AHhhhhh..... See! I was confused about my stations!
"The longest SEPTA train that calls here is probably on the order of 5-6 cars."
So you could park four trains on one platform. Interesting.
Elias
In 1970 I routinely saw 14-car Wilmington locals (MP54's) during afternoon rush hour. They would have used a good portion of the platform.
How long were th MP-54s?
Peace,
ANDROO
67 feet.
Thanks.
Peace,
ANDEE
As recently as the 1977 SEPTA transit strike there were long trains on the Regional Rail side - up to 10 cars on many lines. In the PRR days GG-1's were often put into this service with P70 coaches. I'm sure they taxed the platforms.
I have some Italian blood in me, but even I know that Amtrak named Acela for Aceleration..and rightfully so! For anyone who has taken Acela Express, you know how the train accelerates and decellarates naturally! -Nick
Thank you for posting that interview JM.
Ok, I think amtrak's failure has come due to the size of the company itself. I think to remedy this, Amtrak should be broken up in to different companies. A western lines company, a midwest line company, and an eastern railroad company. With this prices remain lower, and the states get more control over the rail companies rather then the U.S. government. Then with better funding spent by the states themselves, and the U.S. government, rail service can become even more widespread, speed limits raise, and maybe the dream of high speed rail service everywhere, then air comapanies have a great deal to worry about when it comes to competition.
Whatever the future is, the ending of Amtrak is done for, it is time to see how we can improve rail service through out the U.S. and that means making several smaller companies and then have service that can run through each companies terratory. That means maitance is kept up, and everything remain at a strong pace.
Didn't we try this before with separate railroads? Did it work? Did the passenger divisions of ATSF, SP, BN, Pennsylvania, New York Central make money?
No. Hauling passengers by rail, or air for that matter, has never been profitable. In the old days railroads ran passenger trains as PR for their freight businesses, and recouped some loss by hauling mail for the Postal Service. Today, the airlines only make money by hauling mail for the Postal Service, and from massive government subsidies and bailouts. Even so, most airlines are barely squeaking by, with some like United, being dangerously close to bankruptcy.
I'm not sure any passenger service will ever be profitable. I think the goal should be to make sure that whatever type of transporation we want is adequately funded relative to its importance in the economy, and run efficiently enough to make the best use of its funding. Not that I know what this means for Amtrak, but they are some principles on which to base the discussion.
Mark
Today, the airlines only make money by hauling mail for the Postal Service, and from massive government subsidies and bailouts. Even so, most airlines are barely squeaking by, with some like United, being dangerously close to bankruptcy.
The people at Southwest would be very much surprised to hear that they're only being kept alive by subsides and bailouts. So would the people at JetBlue and AirTran.
The discount airlines are the exception. The major carriers on the other hand, are not so lucky.
Mark
Not true. Who paid for Dallas Love Field?
Some of you should do some reading on the airline industry. A good book is "Hard Landing" by some guy who used to write for the WSJ. Look it up on Amazon.com
AEM7
The discount airlines are the exception. The major carriers on the other hand, are not so lucky.
There was a very interesting article on just this topic in today's Wall Street Journal. One anecdote in the article really cracked me up. The CEO of a consulting firm in Manhattan said that they often sent people to San Francisco on a last-minute basis. Regular airlines charge exhorbitant amounts for those fares, of course. So now the employees fly on JetBlue, and each time the company will pay for two seats so the employee sits next to an empty seat for more comfort. Even so, the cost of two seats on JetBlue is less than half the cost of one seat on American or United!
Anyway, people claim that Amtrak is obsolete, but the non-discount airlines are more like the dinosaurs just before the comets hit.
Do I really have to write this post?
Discount airlines are jitney operators in New York and Miami. They pick a market niche, they really attack that market niche, and that's all they do. Which is fine and dandy. In fact, jitneys in New York provide a very good service that the MTA dare not get its hands dirty with.
All this is great, until someone needs to fly to Boise ID -- or for that matter, Rochester NY. If we simply let the discount airlines rule the world, no one will provide a service to Boise ID or Rochester NY -- or for that matter, no one will fly to Paris, and no one will fly to Tokyo. You want Southwest to take over the Lovefield to Tokyo service? They tell you to go stuff your face and go on a steamboat.
There is a role for the major airlines to play. United and USAir may not be great airlines, and they definitely need fixing, but putting them to death is not the way to fix them.
AEM7
Oh and let us not forget who pays most of the airport access fees at JFK, LGA and EWR. I don't have the #'s handy but I can assure you, JetBlue does not pay much towards maintaining the infrastructure at JFK. If United went away, and if a few of the majors go bankrupt, Port Authority would be quite likely to seek to change the charging schedule to ensure they still get the return on capital they needed. They can only charge the airlines who fly in and out of their airports. If I were a discount airline, the last thing I want would be to be the only airline left operating out of a major airport.
AEM7
If we simply let the discount airlines rule the world, no one will provide a service to Boise ID or Rochester NY
(clearing throat).... Jet Blue Flies to Rochester, NY - $49 one way from NYC ....
...Yes, and why do you think they do it? Ever heard of the JFK compromise re: slot allocation?
This was a point I was trying to make in my original post. Hauling passengers is not profitable by air or by rail. But it is a needed service, so subsidizing it is appropriate. We recognize this when it comes to air transport, and we subsidize it through a variety of means. But there is often a double standard when it comes to rail travel. Profitability is demanded of rail in a way that isn't seen in air transport policies. My view is that we should subsidize fairly across all modes, or more precisely whichever mode best suits our needs, instead of just air and car transport.
Mark
Why is a discount cheapper than a non-discount? they do everything the same way right?
"I think the goal should be to make sure that whatever type of transporation we want is adequately funded..."
BUT THAT means more TAXES!
BOO HISS!
I wanna keep all o my money, the HECK with all youse odder guys!
;^)-
Once you apply the kind of bookkeeping and accounting standards the IRS applies to most private citizens, the airlines are indeed rather unprofitable. I read once that TWA never ever showed a real profit during it's entire lifetime, kept afloat on long term loans and artful accounting.
Breaking up Amtrak into regional units makes sense. I do not see Congress letting the NEC go down the tubes (the Airport of Congress a.k.a. National would become ever so more congested, and *they* -- and their fat-cat soft-money-paying lobbyists -- would be inconvenienced.
Shutting down the NEC would actually help Torricelli win re-election, as well as helping Democrats region-wide. All but the densest, most anti-transit Republicans recognize this.
>>Breaking up Amtrak into regional units makes sense.<<
NO a thousand times NO. The only way we will ever salvage long distance trains outside the half dozen megacommuter corridors is a single national entity/appropriation. Montana for example does not have enough clout or budget individually to pay for the Empire Bulder, yet it is the only option other than driving for many small towns. Would Nebraska pay to retain the Zephyr? Both of these trains see heavy patronage particularly during summer vacation.
The faults of ATK are legion, but, I fear if it is dissolved we will never get back the full network let alone the expansion/improvements I as a taxpayer am willing to pay for.
HOw come moving of humans is never profitable?
Strictly speaking, if you charged enough, passenger transport could be profitable. But by charging enough to at least break even, you'd have a LOT less travel than you do with the present system. Picture the economic consequences of THAT and you see that money spent to "subsidize" passenger transport, whether by road, rail, or air, is worth it in spades. To make this directly topical to the New York subway, imagine the city if the MTA charged commuter, subway, and bus fares high enough to completely cover their costs (farebox ration of 100%). Not a pleasant thought.
What it boils down to is that nearly every society since the Industrial Revolution has considered mobility of its population (workers, consumers, tenants, tourists, students, officials, etc.) to be SO important to the government, economy, or both that they would rather underwrite passenger transportation than have most people financially unable to travel and therefore de facto serfs.
AY-MEN! And if we were to demonstrate the TRUE costs of all the OTHER subsidies we take ACROSS THE LINES for oil, coal, pharmaceuticals, Microsoft, and Burlington Mills, we might actually realize what a PITTANCE Amtrak needs among all the "vigorish" ... For ALL the corporate Welfare, Amtrak would eat nothing, compared to just Halliburton, Inc.
But hey, we gotta settle for a broken Pepsi can that may or may NOT make it in one piece to Brunoville ...
I agree with Christopher about Splitting up Amtrak.
That's a good opinion to have for your age. That's why we don't let you vote until you turn 18.
AEM7
That sucks. Maybe some of us railfans should write to the congressman, so we can save Amtrak.
Do you have a blank that I can use?
That's a good opinion to have for your age. That's why we don't let you vote until you turn 18.
No, that isn't why. There are a multitude of reasons why people under 18 don't vote, but there are just as many stupid people over 18 as there are under 18, that's why we have a republic with elected representatives instead of direct demockery.
Obviously the opinion you cite is only good for him to have at that age because it butresses your false opinion that people under 18 shouldn't vote. 100 years ago, you could have said that that's why we don't let you vote if you're a woman, or if you're black (if he was one of those things).
"100 years ago, you could have said that that's why we don't let you vote if you're a woman, or if you're black (if he was one of those things). "
And 200 years ago you had to be a White Male PORPERTY OWNER!
How about increasing Amtrak funding, decreasing the number of middle and upper level managers as David Gunn suggests (remember how he turned around the constipated NYCTA in the 80's?).
Where to get funding? Well, how about increasing fuel taxes, car registration fees, and re-thinking aid packages to other nations.
Where to get funding? Well, how about increasing fuel taxes, car registration fees, and re-thinking aid packages to other nations.
That's where NJT gets all its money from to complete its myriad of projects finished and going on now. Also, the purchase of 230 Comet V cars came from federal funds.
Ironic to see that NJT is working on the Montclair project, Secaucus Transfer, restoration of NYP, HBLR, and the purchase of Comet V's and paying AMTRAK to run its trains on the NEC and still not close to a financial quagmire.
Can anyone back me up on this as to why this is so? Or am I crediting the wrong company for the projects?
Because they are backed by the state government, who demands only that they provide necessary service without the trouble of making a profit. Amtrak is told by the feds to provide necessary service AND make a profit, something that is near-impossible to do.
-Hank
NJ is willing to pay the price.
NY has REKEEPLIKANS who REFUSE to pay taxes that might possibly benefit anybody but themfatselfs.
What the heck.... I *am* a Republican... but *my* front yard includes the Subways System, the City, the Nation, and....
well you get the picture.
Decreasing the number of managers would be a first for Gunn. He sure as hell increased their numbers at NYCT. One would think the title "Superintendant" would be a rare one. At NYCT, superintendants are the perverbial a dime a dozen.
Shame on you ... that'd be *logical* ... government doesn't do that, I know, I used to be in it. :)
Less military spending. Do we really need 800 atom bombs? And enough fire power to conquer a plant 3 times as big as earth?
People, you have no idea how much research and development has gone on under the U.S. military programme. Boeing 747, GPS, Intermodal 40' containers, and even the EMD's 567 engine owes its origin to some sort of military research. Don't bash military spending. If it weren't for military technology development, we would still be flying in propeller planes and driving around in Model T's on two-lane highways.
AEM7
Our flag would also not be flying on the surface of another celestial body.
We wouldn't have the internet, that was invented by the military.
"We wouldn't have the internet, that was invented by the military."
I thought algore invented that.
Al Gore authored the legislation that opened the internet to the general public, expanding it beyond its military and educational roots. While saying he 'invented' the internet isn't really accurate, he did have a lot to do with what we are using today.
-Hank
Al Gore *never* said "I invented the internet" or anything close to that. Pure Elephant dung. Seriously, look it up, research it like I did - "there ain't no such animal." What Al Gore *did* say was "I authored the legislation that brought the internet to the people." THAT you can find. And what was Al Gore's motive? Not "you have mail," but rather SELL the existing internet to the phone companies and allow them to have it, then have them pay "federal fees" for internet (and the ability to collect for it) to pay for a BETTER INTERNET ("Internet 2") for the military.
In other words, we bought the LoV's from them so they could have R143's ... not a bad deal, the internet that was "cast off" wasn't such a bad deal ... except for those morons who believed 20 year olds without a business plan that WORKED. :)
BEWARE the revisionists ... there WAS NO HOLOCAUST ... uh, yeah.
Thats not enough. They should release their reserach instaed of taking a black marker to it when giving copies to the public.
You are way off. There are hundreds of larger companies that do just fine. Amtrak's problem is the people who run the people who run it, the politicians. They ask you to bail the Titanic with a thimble, and scream for you to start charging by the bucketful.
-Hank
Oh, they also stop you every 10 minutes to ask why you're still sinking.
-Hank
What the hell good would that do? All you would have then is THREE companies on the brink of financial ruin and NO connecting long distance routes between them and an inability to share equipment for traffic shifts or accidents. Ever hear of economies of scale? Amtrak can save money with common repair facilities, bulk equipment purchase and industry standardization. Why do you think Amtrak runs so many Commuter agencies? Its called they already have the whole management and employee training.hiring system set up and each agency dosen't have to staff one of their own. With a regional based system you'd get turf wars (is Ohio East or Central) and expansion would grind to a halt. The result would be a number of glorified long-haul commuter train agencies that would lack the flexibility to provide anything close to descent service.
How on earth do you think a split up would help? Do you even know what split-ups and spin-offs are for or did you just see these words in the newspaper and liked they way they sounded? Go on, tell me in detail how having 3 Amtraks will will be better than the one we have?
>>>>>>>>>>............and that means making several smaller companies and then have service that can run through each companies terratory. That means maitance is kept up, and everything remain at a strong pace.
Britain tried something like that (i.e. Railtrack, formerly British Rail). Do I need to tell you what kind of a lethal disaster that has turned out to be?
Britain tried something like that (i.e. Railtrack, formerly British Rail). Do I need to tell you what kind of a lethal disaster that has turned out to be?
I think it says enough that it was dubbed "Failtrack" by Private Eye - www.private-eye.co.uk - IMHO this is a very funny magazine (subscriptions are £35 (about $50) for a year). It features a column on the mess the railways are in in every issue!
Oh no, not Private Eye -- pleeeeease!!!!! You are going to corrupt all these innocent American people. What's next? You're going to be coming up with -- now what's that pseudo newsmagazine called -- geez, I've fotgotten the name...
Oh no, not Private Eye -- pleeeeease!!!!! You are going to corrupt all these innocent American people.
That's the idea!!! The thing is I doubt they would get most of the jokes - some are a bit insular - eg the "Price Waterhouse Coopers renamed Sellafield" story.
You're going to be coming up with -- now what's that pseudo newsmagazine called
What, the New Statesman? ;-)
It's the thing that has this cartoon. My friend from London used to read it. The cartoon was called "VIZ". Or was that the name of the magaznie? It basically consisted of extremely politically incorrect jokes, some commentary on the current affairs, some commentary on the society as a whole, and other needless references to sex.
I guess the American equivalent is The Simpsons, yet many over here find it offensive. Some Americans are just too puritan for their own good.
AEM7
It's the thing that has this cartoon. My friend from London used to read it. The cartoon was called "VIZ". Or was that the name of the magaznie? It basically consisted of extremely politically incorrect jokes, some commentary on the current affairs, some commentary on the society as a whole, and other needless references to sex.
Sounds vaguely like "Hello!" Magazine.
Two Sundays ago, 60 Minutes aired a spot that said if AMTRAK were to shutdown longer routes that travel from the MidWest to the West Coast areas, so much commerce would be lost along the way, as I did not realize how much AMTRAK services to all the lesser known towns along it longer routes. A few months ago, private airlines were gasping for money from the federal government. What did we do?...we gave it to them instead of asking their upper management to give up their high salaries. My point is, AMTRAK is worth saving as a whole company. What is needed is better marketing strategies to get people to use AMTRAK for traveling. Yes..they can get to destinations quicker by plane, but they can never replace the images that they would see if they would take the train instead of the plane.
Maybe we need to bring some expert from France and Germany to train the management of AMTRAK on how to run an efficient railroad and one that prospers too.
The railroads in France, Germany and elsewhere do not "prosper" either but at least their governments aren't so CLUELESS as to expect PROFITS. What we need isn't representatives from abroad to lecture our railroads, we need representatives from abroad to bitch-slap our politicians.
AND the RR's. They originally invented ATK to get them out of the pass. bus. They wrote the enabling legislation and then shopped it around. The very least they could do is stop the day in day out delay/sabotage which is the primary cause of late trains (no one of which has a schedule as fast as its antecedents in the 60's before CTC/computer DS/GPS etc.) The millions p@#$^* down the toilet on late trains and extra equipment because everything is slower would buy many improvements. The next ATK funding bill needs real teeth it it for host RR behavior.
Sounds like we'll need more of those pesky foreigners for a good old fashioned Brooklyn slapping then. :)
But first the politicos ... then CSX.
You need euro-trains, not euro-management. A plane is a hour 1 hour and 15 minutes faster than a train on NEC. For trains to compeate with planes they must not be more than 45 minutes from the plane counterparts in terms of actual flight time. Sorry Amtrak Accela doesn't cut it! Get a TGV or something (200+mph)! They have been around since 1970s when they first began to upgrade NEC! Whats their excuse for not using TGVs?
Whats their excuse for not using TGVs?
The reason is because TGVs are shit
280 mph is kindda hard to be shi*. Do you have a reason?
OK, so you're telling me 280mph is not shit. So you would ride a Turboprop from New York to Los Angeles. That also goes at 280 mph.
AEM7
Are they too loud and rattle?
"So you would ride a Turboprop from New York to Los Angeles. That also goes at 280 mph."
Oh GACK!
I've done *that* Yes it Shakes and Rattles, and it was also COLD and uncomfortable. Well, Ok it *was* a millitary plane (and Marine Corps at that!) You had to walk over each others knees to get to the galley or to the head. TEN HOURS it took, with your back to the fusalage, and your baggage piled high in the middle!
It might rate as one of my most memorable flights, but certainly not one of the best. In fact, I'd call it the worst flight I was ever on.
Elias
TGV's are not shit, TGV's are King's of the Rail World!
TGV's are not shit, TGV's are King's of the Rail World!
AEM-7's are still the Queen, and GG-1's are still the Queen Mother. Obviously, the Acela died before the AEM-7s, which is why AEM-7 remarried to the TGV.
Alicia the twice-married Queen.
Hell No!!! The TGV's are the best of the best and that includes the Acela.
well, comparing the TGV to the acela isn't saying much. Besides, you're talking bad about the TGV when you do it.
No I'm not, I was saying good things about the TGV's.
What The_Rockaway_Kid meant was that the TGV is so much better than the Acela that you belittle the TGV by comparing the two.
Mark
The Acela is a TGV.
the acela is a CHEAP ATTEMPT to be a TGV. The acela project failed--- miserably. Just a question (for AcelaExpress2005 ONLY): what does TGV mean?
Train a Grande Vitesse (High Speed Trains), the Acela is not cheap, it deserves to be called a TGV Train. Have you been on the Acela yet?????????????
No, but from what i hear, being on the train for 10 minutes while you're in NYP doesn't count. So, in other words, you werent on it either.
No shit! I know it doesn't count, If Amtrak doesn't shut down, I plan to ride from NYC to Boston and back and then from NYC to Washington and back.
HUMPH!
Well I was never on the Acela either.
But I *was* on the Bullet Train in Japan, back in the 60's
A nice train, I even wrote home aobut it,
but it wasn't all *that* wonderful.
I think it ran on a 10 or 15 minute headway.
Acela should do as well!
You had to buy a local ticket to get on the local platform, where you could then buy a ticket for the express. (Very Confusing to a poor New Yorker who couldn't read Japanese. If the train was late (I think by more than 15 minutes or something) they would refund the express portion of your fare, but you still paid the local fare.
I wish I could have spent more time exploring Japan.
Elias
it aint gonna happen. If a sensible railroad comes into power, the Acelas will be shelved. They were the worst move for the railroad. Instead of creating a right-of-way sutible for the Acelas, they just purchased the machines, which were WRONG, completely. If the NY-Was high speed areas were updated, you probably would have saved more time than using these overpriced wannabes. May I remind you that Northern Jersey is a crawl? If you've gone to Philly on ANY train, you'd notice the Elizabeth curve is still taken <100 (4 inches too wide).
P.S. You said that the HHP-8's were supposed to run the long haul's. Wanna know what's on the long hauls? E60's to philly, Geneses south of that. I see the HHP's on the metroliners. Another indication of how amtrak screwed up (nevermind the millions of dollars changing the name to ACELA)
Acela MAX ATC:150mph MAX:180mph
TGV MAX ATC:280mph MAX:315mph
Do I see a difference?
Also, "TGV" is generally used as a proper noun to describe specifically the French high speed trains. There are other high speed trains in the world, but they generally aren't called TGVs. Rather, they are also refered to by their specific names, e.g., ICE, Shin Kan Sen (sp?), etc. If you want a generic term for all these trains from the really fast TGV to the barely fast Acela, we generally refer to them as "high speed trains."
Mark
I believe the Acela can go faster, but Amtrak hasn't upgraded any of the tracks so they keep the Acela 135 mph and 150 mph, Like I said before the TGV's go 36 mph faster, big whoop!
BUt the Acela isn't a TGV by FAR. Acela is the baby sister of TGV.
Hell No!! The Acela is a distant TGV Cousin, the Acela is a TGV, and that's that.
Speed wise it is NOT!
It goes at 150 mph and the TGV's over there go at 186 mph, wow, 36 mph faster, the Acela is #1 in my book.
280 i've heard. recently I've heard 250. Anyways try putting a Acela against a TGV (no ATC, streght track). If I'am the engineer of the TGV I will middle finger you and pass you at 200 mph and you push the joystick controller thing to the end and you derail.
"A plane is a hour 1 hour and 15 minutes faster than a train on NEC."
Did you count the time getting to the airport, and waiting through those security checks, and delays waiting for flights?
Can you tell me what the average flight delay at LAG is compared to the average train delay at NYP.
Did you include the time it takes to get me back downtown, once I land at WAS?
Someone just posted that AMTK carries more NY to WAS than all of the shuttles combined. *I* Think it is time (and past time) to add more Acelas to the fleet.
Worst case scenario for trains. Who knows, tomorrow they might do something at airports and eliminate ALL delays. The delays do make trains a better idea, but remember that all planes aren't all late or delayed.
"You need euro-trains, not euro-management. A plane is a hour 1 hour and 15 minutes faster than a train on NEC. For trains to compeate with planes they must not be more than 45 minutes from the plane counterparts in terms of actual flight time."
Tell that to the Californians! They have managed to attract an increasing ridership to their corridors even though NONE operate trains at high speeds, not even the 110mph "higher speed" that the Midwest corridor system is planned for. And some of the California corridors are pretty long: 315 miles and over six hours for the San Joaquin corridor, which manages to find the ridership to operate six round trips a day.
The PRIMARY competition for the train is the automobile, not the airplane. And that's why (not apropos to your posting but to several others on this board) the long-distance trains are NOT obsolete or old-fashioned: they are slower than a plane, of course, but they are competitive time-wise with driving and a good bit more comfortable.
People who drive WILL drive because they feel secure and in control, even if it is slower (look at the LIE) and harder. You can't simulate it. To human's psyci there isn't a real difference between a plane and a train (off the ground is the only). But there is a huge one between a car and a train/plane.
"People who drive WILL drive because they feel secure and in control, even if it is slower (look at the LIE) and harder. You can't simulate it."
So how do you explain the ridership on the California corridors? It CAN'T all be carless people, surely?!
People (not just you) keep parroting that people WILL NOT give up their cars. Nobody said they were going to! But just as people who have cars take the commuter train or other rail transit for particular trips because it's the better mode FOR THOSE TRIPS, corridors that AREN'T high-speed like the California corridors and the Cascades demonstrate that where there are reasonably frequent and reasonably comfortable trains, a GOOD NUMBER of people (NOT everybody) will use the train for those trips.
To not provide train service on the grounds that you don't THINK people will use it it a Catch-22, a dog chasing its tail. The flipside of the "Field of Dreams" cliche is that they won't come (heck, they CAN'T come) if you don't build it.
People who drive because they want to drive. Or people who instinctively don't trust the pilot/engineer/Greyhound bus driver.
>>> 315 miles and over six hours for the San Joaquin corridor, which manages to find the ridership to operate six round trips a day. <<<
What per cent of those riders travel the entire distance? I would attribute the success of the San Joaquin corridor to many overlapping trips in the 100-175 mile range. Exactly what advocates of regional rail believe is the place where rail can compete successfully with air carriers.
Tom
"I would attribute the success of the San Joaquin corridor to many overlapping trips in the 100-175 mile range. Exactly what advocates of regional rail believe is the place where rail can compete successfully with air carriers."
Agreed. I would add, however, that long-distance trains are also a series of overlapping trips. It's my understanding that coach seats on long-distance trains typically turn over at least once and sometimes twice or even three times in a trip. Personally, I think of a long-distance train in the air/auto age as a series of corridors connected end-to-end and operated by one train instead of several -- more efficient, not less. The sleeper cars are added on to make extra revenue from "leisure" passengers, much like the mail and express cars are added for revenue, but the coaches show that these trains provide necessary basic transportation.
>>What per cent of those riders travel the entire distance?<<
Well, on my recent roundtrip from Oakland to LA(and Ojai) (I rode the full distance much as I have before and will again) there were numerous riders either a. going the entire route, or b. much of the route AND transferrring to/from the Starlight and other long distance routes. Example riders northbound from various origins changing trains in Sacremento (two San Joaquins per day run Sac-Bakersfield) Commonly when I am returning from Oregon/Washington on the Starlight many riders detrain in Martinez to cach a San Joaquin down the valley. The point here is that not everyone lives in LA or SF nor do they restrict their travel to such cities. Older ATK watchers will remember that the Starlight started as a triweekly and there were NO valley trains. In the 80's the Starlight was often ATK's best performing long distance route, and we now have SIX valley trains which in my experience are mostly full on random weekdays. If any segment of the network is cut the effects are system wide.
On the Lakeshore Limited, they set up once car for CHI-NYP, the others are used for intermediate stuff.
I guess this is good, cause they don't have to disturb you at night while others try to get on or off.
Different kind of people in this car too. More diversified shall we say.
Elias
Yup, a traditional setup--there is usually a "shorts" car for the on and off's so that the thru riders needn't be disturved. On the Lake Shore, there is of course a thru coach for NY and a separate one for Bos. Over the years the lounge from Chicago has often become the sole 'food service' to Boston, while the full diner goes to NY.
On the Chicago to Milwaukee Hiawatha line, Chicago's Metra should consider running commuter trains to the state border. There might be good passenger potential in building a station in Gurnee, since the closest Metra station is several miles away in Waukegan.
Metra already has two lines that approach/cross the Wisconsin border. The Union Pacific North Line terminates in Kenosha, Wisconsin, and the new North Central Service line terminates in Antioch, which is within walking distance of the state line. The North Central line also makes stops in Lake Villa and Round Lake Beach, which aren't too far from Gurnee. (More to the point, they're not too far from Gurnee Mills Mall and Six Flags Great America on the western edge of Gurnee, but have become Gurnee's de facto downtown. What's left of the real downtown Gurnee is actually pretty close to Waukegan.) The Milwaukee District North Line also makes a stop in Libertyville, which isn't too far south of Gurnee. Of course, none of these places are within actual walking distance of Gurnee Mills or Great America, but Pace has connecting bus routes, and almost none of the streets in that area have sidewalks anyway. Those places were my old stomping grounds before I escaped to the city about six years ago.
The idea of Metra service to Milwaukee has been raised on several occasions. Apparently the Union Pacific line north of Kenosha -- the most direct route -- is pretty rundown and would need significant upgrades in order to handle passenger service. Also, there's only two tracks on the UP North Line with very frequent stops along the North Shore, so forget about any sort of real express service. Add more tracks? Try floating that idea to the folks in Lake Forest or Highland Park; the ROW goes right through their business districts. Any Metra line to Milwaukee would be forced to use the same Milwaukee Road tracks that Amtrak uses, which is a nice fast ride but bypasses the major population centers of Kenosha and Racine. Further inland, the area is pretty rural.
More likely, we'll probably see some sort of Amtrak "high-speed" service using Talgos or Flexliners to Milwaukee before we see Metra commuter service.
-- David
Chicago, IL
'course we KNOW where the tracks should be right?
Electroburger chips and a Coke, please
A very comprehensive and interesting report and an asset to SubTalk. Thank you for taking the time to put it all together for us.
I just lifted it off Destination Freedom. I have tried to get people to read Destination Freedom, but nobody will and I have to cross post stuff here. If you want to read D/F go to www.nationalcorridors.org
I have already said this about D:F, and I will say so again. It's too long to read in detail. You are doing us all a great service by lifting off parts that are relevant. I find some of the writing a little too passionate for me at times.
AEM7
As they say with my son's giant Air Force cargo planes, "Nice lift"!
Here's a inside look of the F40 cabbages (Cab/Baggage) Car:
Nice Pics! Where did you get them from?
Hey Jersey Mike, Check this site Out:
F40 Cab Control Page
What is that copper tube leading down from the SA-26 independent brake valve spring housing ?
I might buy a house down there and would want to add trolley location to my decision process. Yes, I know it is years away and might not pull through.
The trolley is the only good reason for moving to Red Hook (besides low rates)...its pretty gritty and tough.
Red Hook is cool. Not only are there plenty of nice buildings, but it's obviously the next Soho. It's good that Wannabe1 is buying a house there, to get in while the rates are low.
If the trolley doesn't pull through, I'd chalk it up to another Brooklyn-screwing activity by the occupying government across the river.
http://www.brooklynrail.com/bhra_maps.html
Thank you.
As I grew up in the South Bronx and then moved to the projects I think I will survive. The prices are starting to go up BIGTIME already.
Norfolk Southern in an effort to reduce dispatching desks has eliminated the Altoona East dispatcher and with it, C(onemaugh) tower in Johnstown PA on the former PRR main line is slated to close soon. C currently controls its own interlocking as well as two satilite interlockings in the Johnstown area and is mainly involved with Eastbound helper operations. Control of C and its interlockings will pass to the Pittsburg East dispatcher, hopefully the increased workload won't bring area traffic to a standstill. Tubular steel signal gantries with traffic light style signals are on location to replace the former PRR Position Lights. There is no word regarding the dwarf signals or pneumatic switches. One would think that taking a tower out of service would not require signal replacement, but I guess that NS just likes to be vengeful. This is a dark dark time for railfans.
Wait, this is part of the old PRR mainline from PHL-PIT right? So where is NS going to route all its through traffic?
According the channel 7, PATH is getting one of those [?scope] things (like on the old Myrtle Av. platform) between 14th and 23rd.
The abandoned 19th Street station I assume?
No.
It is on the left wall of the tunnel between 14th & 23rd. It is an animated ad for Target stores. I see it every evening returning back to Manhattan.
I guess that would be considered a moving Target? (I'll take my meds now)
zoetrope I think it's called.
by the way, is that still there at Myrtle? I remember riding by it pre-July, but couldn't see it (or it was gone).
I believe it's still there, but it has been vandalized, and the lights are shut off.
It's still there. The next time you're on a diamond-Q waiting to let a W cross in front, walk between the slant ends. Can't miss it. I saw it a few weeks ago.
They really didn't seem to be anymore crowded than usual. I rode the 7 express in the AM from Main street to Times Square, pretty much usual conditions.
Going back from Manhattan later I took an N train from Lexington to Queensboro plaza, and then the 7 express, again more or less usual conditions R62A (I even get a seat).
The 7 locals seemed pretty crowded though, and there seemed to be more reverse peak traveling (probably alot of ex-Q66 riders).
In some subway stations, announcements were being made about the strike and to use NYCT subways and buses as alternates.
In Flushing, Queens there was more action. Many workers out with bullhorns announcing no Queens Surface, as well as TWU out in force passing out pamphlets to people mentioning why the TWU is on strike. The Q44/Q20 buses in both directions were packed, with lines over a block long this afternoon. There were some vans, but most people were not taking them.
This morning I didn't know whether the strike was on or not, since there was no mention of it on the half hour I spent watching Good Day NY on 5 (traffic report said nothing). On 880 and WINS there was mention of a problem on the number 2,3 lines (they got that right!) but no mention of the bus strike. Considering over 100,000 people ride those buses, I think it's definately worth a mention in "Traffic and Weather on the 8s" or "Traffic and Transit on the 1s".
Anyway I was glad to see TWU rank and file out in Flushing letting people know that they are sick of the Wimpberg policy of "don't wanna get involved".
This may hurt his chances next election. He doesn't seem to be mention any subway/rail projects in the future either, then again when do we ever hear this guy talk?
These drivers strike every few months, get what they want, and then the public wonders why the service on those lines truly suck?
Companies, especially private ones, are not made of money. The more money each employee extorts, the less employees will be hired, the less buses rolling, the more you have to wait. And I used to wonder why there was a 45 minute wait on the Q25/34 during RUSH HOUR.
They do strike every few months but they did not get what they want. In the tentative agreement there was an agreemnt in the formula for health care contributions of 11.8% which was reneged on. All of a sudden it gets decreased to 1.4%. This Bloomberg is out to take the franchises away from these companies. This means that well trained drivers and mechanics along with their families will be thrown out to the streets destroying the economy of Queens. Best case senario they would be rehired at piecemeal wages. You might say they are hurting themselves right now by being out. True. But if they stand around and let the city do what it wants to do and put these people out of work in an orderly fashion with an organised takeover of routes over the course of one weekend, these workers would never get the issue out into the forefront. These workers are not extorting money. They are laborers, they do not make 6 figure salaries. All they want it to make a living wage and not get bankrupt with medical bills.
Maybe I'm confused. These are private companies, right? How did Bloomberg take away health care contributions from the workers?
The City is the financier, thru subsidys that make up for the short fall in the farebox ... so the owners can't agree to an increased cost with out the City standing behind them ready to write a bigger check, i.e. it's not like the owners could raise the fare or do anything else like that to recover the increased cost.
Right now Roger & Mike are on opposite sides of the street pissing at each other ... it's not helpful.
Anybody feel like dialing up the CLUEPHONE?
Bob Diamond's Red Hook trolley was DOOMED until some of us explained that we'd actaully spend MONEY to make it real. Unlike Giuliani, who lived for accolades, Mayor Mike is on a different tangent ... "I gots X bucks. Where will it give me (us) the greatest amount of dollars BACK (read that as Disney can kiss his ass, pay up) ...
TOURISM was the wedge for Mayor Mike that showed the value in the BHRA for the bucks it would cost, time for the Queens bus lines to show a proper P/L sheet and the benefits they provide, or they might as well be MABSTOA ... Mayor Mike ain't stupid ... what he did for the BHRA so far PROVES it ... time for the Queens bus companies to either get WITH the program, or lose it.
I really don't think the employees would be much worse off as MTA employees, no? Mayor Mike is doing a properly calibrated Hylan here ... and the hourlies SHOULD be able to benefit if the private companies lose. Those golden parachutes might well be connected to the tailpipe. :)
Actually, months ago, he mentioned that he was in favor of the expansion of the 7 to the Javits Center...
Why should WCBS and WINS spend valuable airtime to announce a bus strike that everyone who uses the buses regularly should already know about it? WTOP has done a show twice called "Ask WTOP" on which the VP of News and Programming takes listener questions for an hour. They also had the morning drive traffic reporter on for a few minutes, the station GM, and one or two other station employees. One of the things brought up both times this show has aired is why are reports so short and why do you cut the last part of the CBS News at the top of the hour? The reason is because each reporter only has so long to be on the air so that the other reporters can give their stories and to add more time to the traffic reports. There is no reason to spend airtime announcing there is a bus strike.
Todd, you want to confirm or add on to any of this?
Since it was a nice day I went over to the 239th Street yard, I noticed that the Lexington Avenue Thru trains were all redbirds, when will the R-142's start running as Lexington Avenue Thru trains, I plan to go back some time this week and catch these redbirds these are the only one's I see running on the 2 line Lately.
Oh don't break my chops!!!!!!!!! 110 R142s on the #5 now and I did a 'double reverse shift' working 7am/3pm and then 11pm/3pm to prep the 'cobweb cars.' Ten R142s have six 'B' cars with 150 battery cells, 150 battery caps to be filled and 600 nuts to be torqued to specification. Everyone grabs me to answer questions...i have my asigned work to complete...and i can remain clean. Goodbye nasty/dirty/greasy Redbirds...'We whom are about to die salute you.'
The R142s are used on the 5 during the rush hour.......
25 years young today
Alright, a few days ago I made a post with the subject line, "Re: Amtrak California vs. Amtrak Northeast Corridor", in which I could not at the time back up my assertions. At the time this inability to be accountable for what I said drove me nuts, and since then I have worked to discover all I can on the propulsive systems of the Acela, HHP-8, AEM-7 and AEM-7AC, so here are the results of my labors:
Oh, and here is a site that may be helpful, for those of you that are not electrical engineers, like me:Railway Technical Web Pages
1. The AEM-7 indeed uses the Thrystor for rectifying it's AC into DC power. In fact, it's ancestor, the RC1, was the first engine to use thrystor rectification of it's catenary supply. The RC1 site above even says, "The Rc1 was put into service in 1967, and was the first electric locomotive to be fitted with a thyristor propulsion system." It can be inferred that Amtrak would not rip out such a technological advance as Thrystor rectification, and replace it with older bridge rectification, and so the AEM-7 obviously also used something that was quite ahead of it's time.
2. The AEM-7AC is also the first passenger engine to use IGBT, the Amtrak Photo Archive says: "The power modules use water-cooled IGBT (inverted gate bipolar transistor) technology and provide 5 MW (megawatts) of traction power plus 1 MW of HEP, enough for 12 coaches. As such, the reborn AEM-7 'is the world's first passenger locomotive with IGBT in service, [According to Alstom],'" As the Railway Technical Web Page says, IGBT eliminates the 'gear shifting' sounds found in conventional GTO rectifiers.
3. On the other hand, the Acela and possibly the HHP-8 are still using GTOs, a minor evolution on the Thrystor that the AEM-7's Swedish ancestor pioneered. TGVweb says,"The power cars use the newest TGV (3rd generation) traction technology ... The DC link feeds two inverters (one per truck) based on water-cooled GTO technology." The fact that the most advanced thing that the French, or the Americans for that matter, can come up with for their premier train is technology that is now over 10 years old is almost unbelievable, would you like an old IBM PS/2 for your next computer? The comparison between the AEM-7AC and the Acela power car is very similar to the competition between the thrystor equipped X995, and the far more conventional X996, which gave us the AEM-7. Unfortunately I cannot find out if the HHP-8 uses IGBT or GTO thrystors, I would assume that it is mechanically similar to the Acela Power car, but at the same time it manages to get 8000hp compared to the Acela's 6250hp per end. It could just be a difference in techniques that leads to the increase in power, still using GTOs, I really don't know.
The AEM-7 is truely worthy of praise, the obvious progenitor to the Acela, not only did it keep the NEC around, something that other designs like the E60CP, GG1, and E44 had proven ill suited to, it's own ancestors pioneered the mechanisms that would be virtually copied twenty years later in the Acela. Today, even with the advent of the Acela and HHP-8, the AEM-7 and it's trusty sidekick E60MA are still the workhorses of the NEC. With it's IGBT, and improved cab, the AEM-7AC could very well be around long after the Acelas are pulled off to the deadlines (how bout this time by MP20Ts?).
Alright, at the bottom of that post I made, I was willing to wager that I could support all of my claims that I made, and said, "I do not mean to spread heresay, and would probably be willing to wager on the validity of my previous post. Thanks." So everybody ante up, come on, I supported virtually all of what I wrote there, so now come on give it up.
Oh darn, we didn't assign an amount to bet?
Oh well.
Thanks anyway
Very Very Informative Information, Thanks!
"Information" is by definition informative. If it weren't, it'd be bullshit.
I liked that post too :) Wdobner obviously has far more technical expertise than I would ever have. My keeping up with latest traction technology stopped when they got to about GTO's.
The class 92 on British Rail, constructed by Brush in 1992, had an IGBT-based traction package. Unfortunately, it took them five years to get the thing to work. So I was told, software troubles, but mostly immunizing the West Coast Mainline signalling (mostly SSI-type [Solid State Interlocking] technologies put in during the 60's) against the powerful electromagnetic interference generated by the traction equipment. The class 92 still has to be specifically cleared to run on certain lines; it does not have a "systemwide" certificate on British Rail.
Question: Did Amtrak have to do similar immunization work to Pennsylvania section of the NEC? Sounds like they didn't, the PRR section has not been resignalled since they put in coded track circuits in the 1930s(?) So why isn't the IGBT kit interfereing with the signalling (for that matter, why isn't the GTO kit interfering with the signalling?) Those power electronics can generate a lot of stray eletromagnetic waves, and you'd think that if it induced enough current in the rails, at the right frequency, it can give you a phantom signal aspect. Is this the reason the relay huts on American Railroads live in a Faraday's cage? The more important question -- why on earth are the British signalling kit *not* in a Faraday's cage and requires "signal immunization"!?????
AEM7
1. The AEM-7 indeed uses the Thrystor for rectifying it's AC into DC power. In fact, it's ancestor, the RC1, was the first engine to use thrystor rectification of it's catenary supply. The RC1 site above even says, "The Rc1 was put into service in 1967, and was the first electric locomotive to be fitted with a thyristor propulsion system." It can be inferred that Amtrak would not rip out such a technological advance as Thrystor rectification, and replace it with older bridge rectification, and so the AEM-7 obviously also used something that was quite ahead of it's time.
The Thyristor, a/k/a SCR, was the sillicon equivelent of the ignitron. ASEA was big at the time into power semiconductor development, and still is. IIRC, they had thyristor based MUs for a few years before the RC-1. I believe the RC-1 was also the world's first continuously throttleable rectifier electric.
2. The AEM-7AC is also the first passenger engine to use IGBT, the Amtrak Photo Archive says: "The power modules use water-cooled IGBT (inverted gate bipolar transistor) technology and provide 5 MW (megawatts) of traction power plus 1 MW of HEP, enough for 12 coaches. As such, the reborn AEM-7 'is the world's first passenger locomotive with IGBT in service, [According to Alstom],'" As the Railway Technical Web Page says, IGBT eliminates the 'gear shifting' sounds found in conventional GTO rectifiers.
Yes. IGBT is fast becomming the preferred standard.
3. On the other hand, the Acela and possibly the HHP-8 are still using GTOs, a minor evolution on the Thrystor that the AEM-7's Swedish ancestor pioneered.
GTO was the previous generation, though ASEA was using MOSFET for a while, I think. It's effectively a dead technology, now, though GE and GM still use it.
The fact that the most advanced thing that the French, or the Americans for that matter, can come up with for their premier train is technology that is now over 10 years old is almost unbelievable, would you like an old IBM PS/2 for your next computer?
Not to mention, the Acela cars and HHP-8 are based off a failed design the French tried a few years back. It's not surprising they trail ABB in terms of technology (given ABB's specialty IS power electronics), and I suspect that's one reason why Bombardier bought up ADtranz the other year. I find it funny that the US's most advanced train is technologically a few decades behind the rest of the world, and traction wise 10 years behind...
Unfortunately I cannot find out if the HHP-8 uses IGBT or GTO thrystors, I would assume that it is mechanically similar to the Acela Power car, but at the same time it manages to get 8000hp compared to the Acela's 6250hp per end. It could just be a difference in techniques that leads to the increase in power, still using GTOs, I really don't know.
I'm pretty certain it's GTO. The ALP-46s (based off the class 101 and LOK 2000) are GTO also, but the Prima based nJT diesels will be IGBT, as are the M-7s.
Who makes the propulsion systems for the Kawasaki 142s?
The AEM-7 is truely worthy of praise, the obvious progenitor to the Acela, not only did it keep the NEC around, something that other designs like the E60CP, GG1, and E44 had proven ill suited to, it's own ancestors pioneered the mechanisms that would be virtually copied twenty years later in the Acela.
The AEM-7 is, IMHO, by and far the most important locomotive in the US of the last 25, perhaps 50, years. Until the HHP-8s came around, it offered by far the best HP:weight ratio, and has been a proven success.
.
With it's IGBT, and improved cab, the AEM-7AC could very well be around long after the Acelas are pulled off to the deadlines
Given the state of Amtrak, that very well may be the case. I don't expect the Acela equipment to be long lived. It's a touchy (and poor) design, and deferred maintenance will only come back to bite Amtrak in the form of lower speeds or derailments. I predict within 5 years we see a rollback from 150mph to 135.
Hey, didn't I predict the LIRR units would be failures when they first started running?
They go 150 for 19 miles in a straight line, that's not much of a roll back. Because the 150 mph is such a small part of its run, unless you see a rash of unexplained hi-speed derailments nothing will happen.
18 miles actually, 8 miles in Rhode Island and 10 miles in Boston.
While they was at it, they should of upgraded the AEM-7's Hp to 7,500 or higher.
The Alp44 - the European cousin of the AEM7 and I believe the AEM7 itself have one truly amazing feature that I've not heard of on any othre loco. The ALP44 will switch automatically (at speeds of 60 MPH or less) between 11KV and 25KV catanary. I'm no expert in this area but I know of no other loco (other than the ALP46) that can do this.
I would assume that HHP-8's and Acela Express locomotives would be able to do this.
Most Euro locos now can negotiate more than one system, and I'd imagine they switch at speed too. They can also go between AC and DC - they have sepperate pans for each.
The first well known multisystem train was the TEE, which were MUs that could negotiate 1.5Kv DC, 3kV DC, 15kv AC, 25kv AC. One pan per system, no less. IIRC, they're still in use.
Some SEPTA MUs (SL IV, Reading units 9018-9031) were delivered with multifrequency/voltage capacity, and can switch voltages automagically too. Its activated by wayside equipment - if the changeover fails, the vacuum breaker stays open and the crew can manually tell the equipment to change taps. I'm not sure if the changer is roof or undercar mounted (I believe some euro locos have it on the roof)
The Acela equipment does it too. I don't know if the Metroliners were ever equipped to do it, though they might have been.
NJT MUs can switch frequency on the fly, but not voltage.
Most Euro locos now can negotiate more than one system, and I'd imagine they switch at speed too. They can also go between AC and DC - they have sepperate pans for each.
But with all those Euro locos, you have to push a button to change the voltage. The procedure is control to neutral, pan-down, change voltage switch, pan-up, engage power.
Train Dude makes it sound like that AEM7 will do it with just a pan-down and pan-up over a neutral section. That isn't anything new -- it's called a voltage detection circuit, which was designed (but not built) into the 1962-design class 86 on British Rail.
Philip, do you have the answer to my "signalling interference" question? It's elsewhere in this thread. Basically I want to know why they didn't have to immunize the signalling system (and coded track circuits) on PRR with IGBT locos running amock around the system.
AEM7
The procedure is control to neutral, pan-down, change voltage switch, pan-up, engage power.
Train Dude makes it sound like that AEM7 will do it with just a pan-down and pan-up over a neutral section. That isn't anything new -- it's called a voltage detection circuit, which was designed (but not built) into the 1962-design class 86 on British Rail.
No American does a pan up/down operation to power supply change sections. There is this nifty thing called a 'DS' or Phaze Break where a short stretch of cat is nutralized to effect the transition.
The only reason I'd see for doing pan downs is to get rid of the somewhat flakey vacuum breakers that are used for breaking the high voltage line. They're not cheap, or really intended for constant operation.
As to why they didn't have to imunize the signal system? My guess is the technology has progressed far enough that AC locos don't create the interference they used to years ago. IIRC, the X-2000 didn't cause much trouble either.
Or, the computer running the inverters skips around any situation which would cause interference at a frequency that would screw up the signal system. This has been done on some systems in the past, I believe. I think it's mostly a case of better filtering, though. I suspect that in the next decade or so, we'll start seeing inverters *on* the traction motors, at least for MUs, though they may be body mounted motors. Solid state electronics are shrinking fast, and there might be a significant switching speed advantage to it - IIRC, inductance and capacitance issues in the leads up to the motors and the motors themselvs are limiting issues in switching speeds. To get maximum efficientcy, you want to get the switching speed as fast as possible.
BTW, IGBT doesn't elimanate frequency shifting - at least some R-142s do it. frequency shifting is more a function of inverter design. Naturally, designers want to make an electrically and mechanically quiet design. I've read the Asain markets are sensitive to the latter, thus trains in the pacific rim are designed to have very quiet inverters. I also once read they don't like TV sets where you can get a blurry spot on the screen after shut off, therefore TVs for the market are designed specifically to kill the high voltage on shutoff, or bias the CRT beyond cutoff.
I have a few data sheets on IGBT stuff and their drivers, and keep thinking of building a little H bridge variable voltage/frequency drive, just for hack value :)
The Microchip PIC line of microcontrollers had PWM facilities built right in...
Check Out these Pics of the Talgo Trainset in Blue & Silver for the Amtrak Cascades:
I think thats the las vegas set, which was loaned to cascades
That's correct. It did a demonstration tour over a year ago around California. The Las Vegas services are basically in limbo, so it was decided to send the blue trainset up north so there would be a better spare ratio there and it does getused quite frequently.
Check Out this Beautiful Night Pic of the Talgo Trains:
Blue & Silver Talgo Trainset
Where was that photo taken?
Mark
That's definitely Seattle, I can see Smith Tower, the Union Station clocktower, and the Columbia Center.
Today we bargain collectively and strike out.
Once again, the planned column has been pre-empted, this time by developing news. Last week it was announced the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers (BLE) reached a tentative agreement with the Canadian National Illinois Central. Notice the key word, tentative. The meaning of this word is strategic. Tentative means just that, tentative. It does not mean this agreement has been ratified, signed and is now in effect. There is quite the process to be completed before this agreement can actually take effect. However, judging from the way the press releases have written it up, it is a done deal. Trust me though, it isn’t. In fact, this is far, so far from being done. There is a great deal of procedure to be followed and steps to be taken before it might actually go into effect.
First off, all of the Local Chairmen representing each Local Committee of Adjustment throughout the system will meet with the General Chairman at a round of meetings. At these meetings, the tentative agreement will be presented, discussed and evaluated. Questions from the Local Chairmen will be addressed and hopefully, answered to everybody’s satisfaction. If all proceeds well, the tentative agreement will be presented for a vote by the Local Chairman. If they decide to accept this agreement, they will then vote to present this agreement to the rank and file membership of all the Local Committees across the Illinois Central proper for a ratification vote. Illinois Central proper would be those districts that were Illinois Central at the time of the merger with Canadian National in 1999. This does not include the Chicago Central & Pacific or Cedar River Railroads which, while IC properties, have separate collective bargaining agreements from the IC proper. As a result, they are not affected by the outcome of the tentative agreement with the IC.
All Locomotive Engineers that are members of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers on the IC proper will be allowed to vote on the tentative agreement when it is presented for ratification. Engineers that are not members of the BLE are not entitled to a vote. There are some Engineers on the property who belong to the United Transportation Union. While they receive the pay structure and benefits under the BLE collective bargaining agreements, they have no voice to vote.
For those of you unfamiliar with the structure of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, a Local Committee is the individual local structure for representation. This is referred to as a Division. The International in Cleveland assigns each Division its own identification number. In the case of the Chicago District, we are Division 10. Each Local Committee is represented by a Local President, Vice President, Secretary-Treasurer and of course, Local Chairman. The Local Chairman would be akin to a shop steward in a factory. There are various other positions within each Division such as Committeeman (or men), State Legislative Representative, Guide and Chaplin. Yours truly serves as a Committeeman. All of these positions are voted upon by the membership of each Division.
Depending upon the size of the property, there may be one or more General Committees of Adjustment (CGA). The IC proper has just one GCA. Conrail also had just one. Other railroads have (or had) several, often determined by geographic regions within the railroad. Missouri Pacific had several. One of the reasons for multiple committees is the result of mergers. The Chicago & Eastern Illinois was taken over by MoPac in 1967. The C&EI GCA remained intact, but now under the MoPac umbrella. The General Committee of the C&EI only represented Engineers on the former C&EI property. Engineers on what was the MoPac proper (not including the former Texas & Pacific) belonged to the MoPac GCA.
General Chairmen are elected by the Local Chairmen of the respective divisions under their jurisdiction. In the case of the IC proper, all of the individual divisions on the property vote on our General Chairman. In the case of the MoPac, the former C&EI General Chairman was elected only by the three divisions under that jurisdiction. The CGA will engage in various activities such as the next level of handling contract disputes when they go beyond the local level. They may also be participants in negotiating the collective bargaining agreements with a Vice President (and possibly others) from the International Division in Cleveland on certain properties like the former IC. Engineers on the former Grand Trunk Western are represented by the GCA on their property and negotiate separately from us.
One of several events will transpire in the next week. The Local Chairman may vote to accept the tentative agreement for presentation to the rank and file for ratification vote or they may reject it. Rejecting this agreement at this level would end the process at this point and send the BLE negotiating team back to the bargaining table with the CNIC to resume contract talks. During this period, the terms of the previous collective bargaining agreement ratified in 1997 continue to remain in effect.
If the tentative contract is voted for acceptance by the Local Chairmen, it will then be presented to the membership of each Division. There will likely be special Division meetings called to explain details, discuss the ramifications of the agreement and answer questions about the tentative agreement. In the case of our 1997 agreement, our General Chairman, Brother John Koonce appeared at Division meetings to participate and answer questions. In the following weeks the rank and file will vote on secret ballots received via the U.S. Postal Service. If enough favorable votes are received, the tentative agreement will become effective at the date negotiated in the agreement, in this case 15 August, 2002.
Should the agreement be rejected by the voting Engineers, contract talks will then resume and again, the terms of the previous agreement ratified in 1997 remain in effect. So as you can clearly see, this is by no means, a done deal.
Now with all this in mind, we’re going to flash back to 1982. Back in 82 the railroads bargaining collectively under the National Carriers Conference Committee (NCCC) and the BLE had reached an impasse in negotiations. We had gone some two and a half years with no new collective bargaining agreement. Assistance from the National Mediation Board yielded no results. The BLE had requested to withdraw from the negotiations and resort to self help, or a work stoppage also known as a strike.
Before a strike could take place, the President of the United States ordered a cooling off period and ordered a Presidential Emergency Board (PEB) commissioned to study the impasse and make recommendations to resolve the dispute. When the cooling off period ended and the PEB made their recommendations, the BLE rejected them as they tended to side with the carriers. Of course this was no surprise as being a Republican Administration, the favor lied with business. There could have been arbitration to settle the dispute, but in this scenario, an Arbitrator decides the issue with both sides bound by the decision. In the case of arbitration, one side wins and one side loses, period. It is generally not a mix and match situations. Arbitration was rejected. With all other means exhausted, the BLE was then allowed to withdraw from negotiations and resort to self help.
The rail industry then and now is not bound by the same set of labor rules and collective bargaining procedures that govern most occupations. Both the railroads and the airline industry come under the Railway Labor Act. We have a completely different set of rules and guidelines. Unlike say, coal miners, steel workers and automotive workers, we do not go out on strike when our collective bargaining agreements expire. Even when the dates of our contracts expire, the terms of them remain in force while negotiations or mediation continue. Unless the industry attempts to implement the terms of the agreement they wish to be placed in the contract, we continue to work bound under the last contract. However, we do not receive any wage increases during this time frame. If the industry serves notice of their attempt to implement new provisions without a ratification vote, the unions may strike. In my career, this situation has not occurred on the class one railroads.
The industry may decide to head off a strike by locking out employees. One railroad, I believe it was CSX was to be struck. The other railroads under national handling decided to lock their employees out as part of this decision saying the CSX strike affected all of them as well. This occurred in the early 90’s and lasted a day before the President ordered everybody back to work.
Normally, it takes a good year and a half or more after the expiration date of the previous contract to exhaust all means of negotiations. Organizations like the National Mediation Board have to be satisfied there is nothing left they can do before allowing a withdrawal from negotiations and allowing a strike to be called. And even then, the President can (and often does) order a cooling off period and appoint a PEB first.
During the dark era of Reagan/Bush the industry routinely resorted to assistance from the White House to resolve contract disputes. The industry had a very anti-labor administration for a friend and felt free to tap into this sentiment to resolve our disputes. There was serious talk of attempting to make the findings of any PEB’s commissioned binding therefore mandating their findings to become our collective bargaining without any further handling. Fortunately, this mandate did not transpire.
A bizarre tactic the industry came up with in the early 90’s to try to find a way around negotiating in good faith was the proclamation "We are not railroads." Norfolk Southern and Union Pacific were two of the companies that seemed to be leading the way in this rather unusual measure. They claimed they were not railroads. True, while the parent companies of most railroads are generally some sort of holding companies that are highly diversified, they own railroads with the same name. Funny how that happens. I guess they figured if they could pull this one through, they could get out of the bind of the Railway Labor Act. And these are the same folks that tell us to trust them. Needless to say, this stunt went nowhere and they were forced to negotiate as railroads.
I wonder how much money they paid some consulting firm to dream this little scheme up?
And now back to the strike. When the clock reached 0001 hours on the morning of 19 September 1982, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers went on strike against all the railroads participating in the NCCC. Not all railroads were struck in the U.S. Some railroads did not, and continue to not participate in national handling of collective bargaining, they bargain on a local level. In 82, Conrail and Illinois Central Gulf were two of the class one railroads not participating in national handling and thus, were not struck. Most others however, were. The struck lines included, but were not limited to, Louisville & Nashville, Union Pacific, Southern, Norfolk & Western, Chessie System Railroads, Southern Pacific, Santa Fe and Burlington Northern. There were others included, but there are just too many to list. The mentioned lines were some of the larger systems subject to the work stoppage.
Class one railroads not involved in national handling are affected by all negotiations though. In most cases, their contracts are patterned after what is developed in the national agreements. So the entire industry is always closely watching. Smaller operations like short lines and regionals generally have different types of agreements in place that do not normally follow the pattern of class one lines. They too though, follow the proceedings as it can and often does have an impact on what will happen on their respective properties.
In the last few months immediately preceding the work stoppage, MoPac began to try to gear up for such a job action. They tried to rapid fire train some of their officials to operate locomotives. Unlike other railroads, MoPac did not have a formal program to strike train officials. So here they came, all these Trainmasters and Assistant Trainmasters who heretofore, had little training and knowledge of running a locomotive, boarding our engines and requesting the opportunity to be allowed to run. Needless to say, I would refuse their request.
One evening an Assistant Trainmaster in particular boarded my engine while I was working a switch assignment at Yard Center. He entered the cab and promptly stated his desire to run the engine. I politely told him no. He persisted but I stood my ground. He then told me that as an officer of the carrier, he could order me to let him run the engine. I responded that indeed he could. However, I also told him that should he pull rank and make such a request, I would remove myself from the locomotive, submit a penalty claim for an officer operating a locomotive when I was present and available to perform such service and would then contact my Local Chairman to report this violation. He was quite taken back by my response. As he stepped off the locomotive, this representative of the future of railroad management called me a name that describes a portion of the male anatomy. As he did I told him that yes I was one of those and a really big one too.
Over the years I have had several such officials make the same request. In each case, I deny them. When asked by one Trainmaster why I would refuse I told him in a matter of fact response,
"I don’t get to go and play Trainmaster and run the yard and operations for awhile, so you are not entitled to run my engine. If you have the burning desire to be an Engineer, go talk to the Superintendent and make your request to enter the Locomotive Engineer Training Program."
Needless to say, this was not the answer he wanted. When he likewise threatened to pull rank, I gave him a response very similar to what I told the guy on the MoPac in 82. He seemed rather shocked by my response. While he did not pursue the issue, he did comment on that same body part I could be.
Am I being that body part? Contrary to what some might think or say, I don’t believe so. What I am doing is protecting my occupation and preserving the integrity of the craft at which I have strived to become highly skilled and proficient. Sorry, I don’t buy into the notion and misguided belief that a couple of weeks of class and a few more weeks (and not even those few weeks in a row) make one suited to perform the occupation of which I trained for the better part of a year. Is a brief training period to attempt to teach somebody to perform my job under battlefield conditions the regard the industry has for my occupation?
In the last couple of weeks immediately prior to the planned date of the 82 strike, MoPac posted a notice about the "Peaceful withdrawal from service" as the called it. The strike word was never once mentioned in this carefully worded notice. I guess they figured if they didn’t call it a strike, nobody would understand what it was they were talking about. They must’ve figured their help was a bunch of dopes or something and not in tune with the current state of affairs within their industry. In this notice was the request for employees whose unions were not involved in the peaceful withdrawal from service to continue to work at their crafts. They offered any Engineers who did not desire to walk off and any Trainmen who desired to keep working during the dispute a simple wage of $8.80 per hour with no arbitraries. This was less than what either craft was making per hour at that point in time. They offered overtime after forty hours of work instead after eight hours per day. We laughed as again, they must have thought their employees were dopes. One would think if they really wanted to entice employees to cross a picket line, they would have sweetened the pot not watered it down.
On this eventful morning in September 1982, I was working as the Fireman on the Clearing Run Transfer assignment for MoPac. I actually went on duty on the evening of the 18th at 2330 hours. In the first thirty-one minutes of my run, all I managed to do was inspect and bring the engines off the pit. I was not planning on working beyond midnight. The Trainmaster was trying to encourage me to hurry along figuring if we got into the middle of the yard and busy, I would continue to work.
At 0001 hours, like all of my brethren on the MoPac and those nationally, I stepped off and manned the picket lines. For the first time in years, there was a national strike against the rail industry. And for the first time in my life, I was on strike against my employer. And now some of the most interesting railroading I have ever witnessed would begin. Some of the most bizarre operations (and excuses to justify them) took place as those in charge manned the trenches to show us how to railroad. It was actually more of a demonstration in what not to do when railroading.
Watch closely at what I do, and then don’t do it!
When the Engineers stepped off the job, all the Trainmen continued to work. They were required to work with the officials who stepped up to take our places. According to the rules, they are required to work as they are already on the property and not on strike. If they were to refuse to perform service, they could face insubordination charges. It would be the same if they struck, we would be required to continue to work at that time. However, once their hours of service had expired and they completed their tours of duty, they left. Those coming to work after the strike began were then faced with two options, honor the picket lines or cross them and come to work. They cannot be charged with any disciplinary action if they refuse to cross a picket line contrary to the word put out by some officials.
And now we offer proof of and demonstrate just how well strike training officials has worked over the years.
We were only on the pickets about an hour or so when we heard this tremendous crash and saw a puff of smoke rise above the north end of 8 Yard (also referred to as B Yard) at Yard Center. Another Engineer and I quickly took a walk up onto the Sibley Boulevard Bridge which spanned the width of Yard Center near its middle. Upon reaching the area over B Yard we looked down and observed the first of what would be many disasters to take place in the next four days.
Inbound Grand Trunk Western train 385 was pulling into 8 Yard. They were pulling out on the lead at the B Yard end when a cut of cars was shoved out into the side of one of their engines nearly turning it over on its side. There was extensive damage to the locomotive, a GP38 series model as well as to several rail cars. One of the cars involved was almost sideways. There was significant track damage as well. Later while several of us went to get some coffee and go warm up on this chilly fall overnight, we overheard a couple of MoPac mechanical officers in the place discussing the events involving the B Yard wreck. One of them commented there was probably $50,000 worth of damage to the GTW engine. It was not easy to not laugh out loud. We would learn what happened later that morning and were told this engine that got rammed nearly turned over on its side. After the strike was over, the cost of the damage to the locomotive was claimed to be around $500 dollars. I saw this engine right after the wreck. Trust me, it was far more than $500 in damage.
When the switch crew working on the job involved in shoving these cars into 385 tied up, they reported the following story to us. That very same Assistant Trainmaster who attempted to coerce me into letting him run my engine was working the night lead job at the south end of 8 Yard as the replacement Engineer. It seems he was shoving a cut of cars into a track and was moving them right along. Guess he had that false sense of actually believing he really knew what he was doing with what little training he had been given. In reality though, he didn’t. He was going far too fast and with only locomotive brakes to stop the cut of cars he was shoving, he could not get them stopped safely or in time. He shoved too far into the track and right out the other end, into the side of 385. This character actually tried to pin the blame of his incompetence on the Trainmen working with him. Months after the episode, he commented they should have told him he was going too fast.
Over the course of the following days there were other episodes that took place as those who lead us were now playing with those really expensive toys in their sandbox. Included were such episodes as getting passed stop signals and then running through power switches not lined for their movements thus ruining them. Back in 82 I was told the motors for these switches that were damaged cost around $5000 to replace. There were numerous cars cornered and sideswiped causing damage to them and their lading. Some cars were derailed. In many cases, those managers replacing the striking Engineers were a major part of the blame for some of the occurrences.
One of the more heralded episodes occurred on the Southern Pacific. I believe it was on their Cotton Belt subsidiary in Arkansas if I recall correctly. There was a head on collision involving two trains. Significant damage was sustained to the several of the locomotives involved. Attempting to spin some damage control and play down the entire episode, SP management tried to convince the unwary public that incidents like this "happen almost daily." They also tried to liken this situation to a minor fender bender in a parking lot.
So if situations like this occur that often and are so relatively minor in terms of severity, how come there is usually media coverage and then FRA and NTSB investigating teams are brought in? Also, why then, are there "fair and impartial investigations" held on the crews involved resulting in somebody getting fired? Seems like an awful big fuss over a parking lot "paint swap." Having seen the pictures from the event, I was amazed SP management actually seriously attempted to make light of the situation. There was significant damage to several of the locomotives involved. I cannot recall if there were any injuries to the crews involved though.
The strike waged on with all of the BLE Division 613 Engineers staying off the job. All of the Trainmen of the UTU continued to honor our pickets and likewise remain off the job as did nearly all of the Clerical and Mechanical employees. While there were a few Car Inspectors and at least one Clerk who did work during the strike, the vast majority of them honored our pickets. Locally as well as nationally, the strike was having quite the impact on the nation’s economy. Car plants were rapidly running out of the parts required to build automobiles. Other industries were getting short of raw materials and also beginning to build stockpiles of finished product that could not be shipped.
At the time of this strike, I was living right along side the L&N’s Monon Subdivision in Dyer, IN. There used to be two daily trains on the line at that time plus two daily Amtrak trains. While the strike was in progress, I only recall seeing one freight train operate in three plus days, staffed by a couple of L&N officials. During the strike, Amtrak did not operate passenger trains on any of the strikebound lines.
In preparation for the strike, I had borrowed a scanner and brought it to work on the night of the strike. I carried out onto the picket lines. We listened into the activities and got to hear the trials and tribulations. It was quite comical to say the least. When I was at home and not out on the pickets, I was also listening in to the action.
In addition to the management attempting to perform our jobs, others within the company referred to as "non-agreement employees" were summoned into strike relief service. Non-agreement employees are those who are not management but are employed in various capacities within the company such as sales representatives and information services personnel. On the third day of the strike I observed one of these "NA’s" in action with a Road Foreman of Engines. It was almost pathetic and made me wonder how there weren’t more wrecks and how personal injuries were avoided.
A monster sized northbound with over 170 cars rolled into Yard Center. They were to set some cars out, take a dinner break and then proceed onto the Belt Railway of Chicago’s Clearing Yard. Being that I had a scanner with me, I really had a pulse of what was going on at Yard Center. The NA in question was very obviously very poorly prepared for what was transpiring. The Road Foreman was literally talking this poor guy through the procedures for making a set out. It was a set by step process,
Road Foreman; "Close the angle cock on the last car we are setting out. Pull the pin there that makes the car uncouple."
NA; "It won’t move."
RR; "Stand clear of the cars and I’ll give you some slack. When the slack comes back, you should be able to pull the pin up. When you can pull it all the way up, do so and then tell me to take them ahead. "
And so it went. Personal injuries hell, I cannot believe nobody was maimed or killed!
As some of the officials who were forced to work extended hours and endure the conditions we routinely are required to work under would enter and leave the property, some of them would stop and chat with us on the pickets for a few moments. On our property it was a very orderly, non-violent and non-confrontational scenario, although I was accused of threatening to attack a truck driver. More on that in a little bit. Some of these guys would ask us how we do this day in and day out. They also asked when we were coming back to work and also asked to please come back. No, make that hurry back, now! One of them, one of the very high ranking Eastern District officials, stopped and talked with me for a good twenty minutes about the situation. He sympathized with our cause and actions. He told me he felt the industry was giving us a raw deal and not attempting to negotiate in good faith. He also said we were killing him and he really wanted us to get back to work as soon as possible as he was exhausted.
And then there were a couple of them that, when they passed through our pickets, either gave us dirty looks or just looked away and didn’t stop at all. Oh well, can’t please everybody all the time.
The company was actually very cooperative during this entire situation. They allowed us to set up our pickets on the property and not just on the edge of the driveways leading into the various facilities. We built small bond fires to keep warm. Even though it was September, we were experiencing colder temperatures than normal. As long as we remained peaceful, they tolerated us being there.
One of my tours of picketing duty had me at the intermodal facility at 37th Street Yard as it was called back then. Today the facility is known as Canal Street. It was hoped that maybe our pickets would stop the machine operators and truckers from going into the facility. If the truckers didn’t either drop off or pick up trailers used in intermodal service, we could also interrupt another aspect of the business. It was ironic that the drivers who honored my pickets were actually the independents and not the union Teamster drivers. Numerous Teamster drivers drove right through, some without even pausing and many of them were rather hostile towards me. Several of them indicated to me that I was "number one."
One Teamster driver did stop to talk. When he learned I was a railroader and this was a rail strike issue he told me that he should have tried to run me over instead of stopping to see what the picket was about. I politely suggested that "any idiot sitting inside a tractor pulling a forty foot trailer can be brave and tough." (Not saying truckers are idiots as I have many trucker friends, several who read this column regularly. This particular individual was the idiot). I also commented as to my wonder of just how tough he was without the big rig to surround him. I never once threatened him, but mentioned that if he had an interest in demonstrating his toughness that maybe he could step out and attempt to partake in such a display. He responded with a wish that I should perform a sexual act upon myself and then drove up the ramp and into the facility.
A few moments later the MoPac Police were at my side, two of them. They were rather perturbed and not very polite. I was told they received a formal complaint from some driver that I threatened to kill him if he drove across my picket. He told the police that he "feared for his life." I tried to explain that he was the one who threatened me and all I did was suggest he wasn’t as tough as he believed himself to be. They told me I had to move my picket to the very end of the driveway and not to come further than a mark on the one wall there or they would be obligated to arrest me. Gee, all that from a little conversation with some loudmouth driver. Having no desire to sup on prison food and share a small cell with ten or fifteen murders, rapists and robbers, I complied with their instructions and moved my pickets closer to the street. Their request actually made it a little more difficult for the drivers though as my car now partially blocked the entrance to the ramp leading up to the facility.
I did get even with this driver though. As he came down the ramp with his outbound trailer, I snuck behind him while he waited in line to pull back out onto Canal Street. In the grime on his trailer I wrote a message for any and all motorists to see. It was a very unflattering message about his inability to perform sexually. Threaten me will you?
On 22 September, what became the final day of the strike, everybody was screaming bloody murder. Car plants were out of parts and closing. Other shipments were horribly delayed, lost and misrouted wreaking all sorts of havoc with just about every other industry. Finally that afternoon, President Reagan took the findings of the PEB he had appointed, gave them to Congress and instructed them to act. Their action was the first of three contracts not settled by negotiations. They passed a law that was our new contract based upon the PEB’s conclusions. We got the first of several Reagan era screwings that took far more than they gave. The industry used Washington to settle our contract instead of doing it themselves. They had a friend and sympathizer in the White House and used him to their advantage and against us.
About 1500 or so on day four of the strike, we were instructed by then BLE President John Sytsma to take down our pickets and return to work. The dispute had literally been settled by an act of Congress. I was actually amazed we had been allowed to stay out this long. Most of us had figured we would be back to work in a day or two with more negotiations mandated by those "inside the Beltway."
We returned to our jobs and began to undo the mess those in charge created. Upon my return to work, I just had to ask several of the managers how they managed to tear up so much in such a short time. One of them responded with the excuse,
"We don’t do this on a regular basis, so you cannot expect us to perform as well and efficient as you boys do."
As well and efficient? Gee, the way they discussed us in the media while we were on the pickets, we were worthless, lazy and stupid, not knowing what we were doing and already far overpaid. Oh, I guess that was just to get the vote out on Capitol Hill.
"Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life."
In any event, while there were some officials with hard feelings after we returned to the trenches, overall we all went back to our same manner of tentative coexistence doing what we do best, operating locomotives and trains. We helped them dig out of their mess and brought the industry and America back up to speed in a matter of a few days. Within a few weeks most of us (officials included) were laughing and joking about what they did to the place while we were off. We were all back to what we did best, moving freight. Of course there were those few officials who still had not put the entire affair behind them but well, that was their own personal issue.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
Greetings, all…
As promised, here’s the full lowdown of my recent trip to Philadelphia and New York City.
Wednesday, 12 June 2002
I left Chicago around 1:00 Wednesday afternoon, heading west on the Chicago Skyway and the Indiana Toll Road. The Skyway is currently in pretty rough condition, as most of it is in the process of being rebuilt.
Somewhere in the middle of Indiana, I saw two CTA 2600-series railcars heading back to Chicago on flatbed trucks, from their date with the rebuilders in Hornell, NY. I didn’t catch the car numbers, as I was going about 80 MPH and they were headed in the opposite direction. With few exceptions, I averaged 80 MPH the entire way between Chicago and Philly, avoiding the local speed traps along the way. Not bad for a beat-up 1986 Trans Am with 153,000 miles on the odometer and no radar detector.
The ride was very smooth all the way through Indiana and Ohio, quite possibly the most boring stretches of freeway in the country. The real fun began when I hit the Pennsylvania Turnpike that evening. In the sections without construction, it’s actually a fun ride, especially in a fast sports car. My Trans Am really enjoyed taking some of those curves at 80 MPH, with nary a squeal from the tires. However, as darkness approached, I was forced to slow down a bit as I hit a few construction zones. Some of these areas had very narrow lanes and no shoulder whatsoever, forcing me to drive with 18-wheeler trucks six inches to one side of me, and the concrete Wall of Death six inches on the other side. What fun. To top it all off, it began to rain a bit, and the spray from all the traffic quickly reduced visibility down to almost nothing. With these conditions, I decided it would be safest to stop for the night and continue onward to Philly in the morning. I got off at Exit 11 / Bedford, and crashed at a Super 8 motel for the night.
Thursday, 13 June 2002
With my interview in Philly having been rescheduled for Friday morning, I had no need to rush to get to Philly. So I slept in till about 10:00 AM in Bedford and had a nice breakfast at the local Denny’s (interrupted only by BMT Man’s phone call on my cell phone as I was using the men’s room) before hitting the road again. I jumped back on the PA Turnpike, this time with much better driving conditions. There was still some rain in the area, even a bit heavy at times, but at least it was daylight out, and most of the construction was behind me. The scenery was beautiful, and the rest of the ride in to Philly was uneventful.
I arrived in Philly via the Schuylkill Expressway (which reminds me very much of Columbia Parkway in my hometown of Cincinnati), the Vine Street Expressway, and then I-95 to the Betsy Ross Bridge to New Jersey. The only traffic jam I hit on the entire trip was the short stretch of I-95 between Center City and the ramp for the Betsy Ross Bridge. I took the bridge over to Route 73, which led me to my hotel in Maple Shade. After some initial confusion navigating New Jersey’s strange highway intersections, I finally found my hotel and checked in around 3:00 PM.
Having dumped all my stuff into my room and with no job interview until 10:00 the next morning, I suddenly found myself bored. So I got back in the car and headed over to Haddonfield, where I found the PATCO station and caught the next train into Philly. While waiting for the train, I saw two outbound PATCO trains, as well as an inbound NJ Transit Atlantic City commuter train pass through the station. This was my first-ever trip on PATCO, despite a couple previous visits to the Philly area. My first impressions:
The PATCO tickets and turnstiles are identical to those used on the Metra Electric line here in Chicago. Interesting, since both lines are like a hybrid between rapid transit and commuter rail.
The PATCO trains have a very cool sound to them. In my mind, they sound exactly the way a subway train should sound.
PATCO trains go nice and fast, and the ride is very smooth. Gotta love that ATC.
PATCO trains have a railfan view that would make Salaam Allah cream his pants. The railfan seat was occupied when I got on board, but the person got off in Camden, allowing me to move up and get an incredible view across the Ben Franklin Bridge and into the subway.
I got off at 15th/16th and Locust and went up to the surface to walk around a little before getting on the Broad Street Subway at City Hall. I have ridden the BSS before, but it was almost two years ago and only for one stop, so I also consider this my first true ride on the BSS. I took an express train up to Fern Rock and back. What a kick-ass express run!! I think Philly could teach New York a couple things about how an express train should travel. Up at Fern Rock, we circled around the yard before arriving at the station itself. In the yard were a couple of old Brill subway cars just like the one we have out at IRM. One was in comparable condition to IRM’s, while the other appeared to have been immaculately restored.
Back at City Hall, I decided to take the Market-Frankfort Line over to 34th Street, where I poked around for a bit on the Drexel Campus. However, it was getting a bit dark and starting to rain a bit, so the campus was pretty quiet. I decided to check out Media, since there’s an apartment complex out there I was considering. I walked over to 30th Street Station to catch the next R3 train to Media.
It turns out I had about 30 minutes to kill before the next R3 train, so I headed up to the platform, found a nice bench, and watched the other trains come and go for a while, while contemplating my upcoming move to this strange new city. Chicago has been my home for nine years now, and I tried to think back to my first couple visits to the Loop, when it was still very new to me. I thought about how strange Philly seems to me now, but how this train platform and everything around it will probably be very familiar to me at some point. I also thought about my move to Boston and how that turned out to be such a dismal failure. However, my heart was never really into that city; I planned to stay in Boston only long enough to finish school and then move back to Chicago. I was living in Boston for a short time, so I never really let go of Chicago.
This time it’s different. When I leave Chicago, I’ll be trying to make a clean break so that I can put the past behind me and get on with my life in Philly. I may still move back to Chicago one day, but I could also see myself moving to New York after I finish school, or maybe even staying in Philly. I won’t be just a Chicago expatriate staying in Philly for a few years, but I fully intend to start a new life for myself in Philly. It won’t be easy, and I still plan to visit Chicago often and keep in touch with friends here, but I think part of the reason Boston didn’t work out was because I never really bothered to embrace the city.
Eventually, my R3 train rolled in and I found a seat in the front car.
Now being in the middle of evening rush hour, I only had a window seat for part of the journey. However, what I saw from the train, once we got clear of the West Philly squalor, was very scenic. Media itself is a nice little town nestled within a scenic valley, and the apartment complex was only a five-minute walk downhill from the train station. I did some exploring there before I walked into the main business district and found the trolley tracks.
After a bit of a wait, the 101 trolley finally showed up. While the trolley itself was unremarkable, the ride to 69th Street reminded me a great deal of Boston’s Riverside branch of the Green Line. Upon arriving at 69th Street, I just missed the departure of an inbound MFL train, so I grabbed a railfan seat at the front of the next train, which was waiting on the other track. Those seats on the M4’s look nice in photos, but to me, they’re actually pretty damn uncomfortable.
By this time it was very dark outside and raining, and with the train’s bright interior lights, it was nearly impossible to see outside. The M4 trains are pretty sharp looking on the exterior, but they make some very strange but subtle noises, and their horn is a horrific screech-like sound. The ride on the Market Street el to Center City was uneventful. I got off at 8th and Market and transferred to PATCO back to Haddonfield.
By this time it was pretty late, raining, and I still hadn’t had any dinner yet. My stomach was growling big-time, so I thought about grabbing a quick bite at a nearby McDonald’s or Wendy’s. However, I quickly realized where I was, so I drove across the Ben Franklin Bridge, found a place to park near South Street, and grabbed myself a big fat cheesteak hoagie at Jim’s Steaks. As I bit into the sandwich, all my anxiety about moving to Philadelphia quickly evaporated. I figure any city that can make comfort food like this can’t be all bad.
I then drove around a bit up in the Germantown area, as I was curious about the Alden Park apartment complex up there. It took a while to find my way around (I forget how spoiled I am living in a city that’s all laid out on a nice grid), and I stumbled into some really shitty neighborhoods in North Philly before finally finding my way. With both my hunger and my curiosity now satisfied, I headed back to Jersey and went to bed. Before hitting the sack and setting my alarm for my interview in the morning, I realized in horror that my dress shirt was completely wrinkled, and I didn’t have any undershirts, save for a Chicago White Sox T-shirt that could easily be read through my dress shirt. Ack! I set my alarm for 30 minutes earlier, and hoped that Cherry Hill Mall would be open in time for me to run in and remedy the situation.
Friday, 14 June 2002
I woke up around 8:00 AM, and quickly found my way to Cherry Hill Mall, only to be informed that they don’t open until 10:00. Not good. However, I realized there was a Kohl’s across the street, so I found my way there, and thankfully they were open. I went in to buy a new dress shirt and undershirts, and quickly proceeded to the restroom to change. I arrived at the firm’s offices at the Philadelphia Naval Business Center a just couple minutes early for my interview. Disaster averted!
The interview itself went very well. Without going into too much detail, I think my interviewer was impressed with me, I was impressed with the firm, and I managed not to say anything stupid the whole time. I was being interviewed for a position in the firm’s historic preservation group, and I pointed out how my volunteer work at the Illinois Railway Museum involves many of the same issues that come up in the restoration of historic buildings. I expect to hear back from them sometime this week, so wish me luck.
After the interview, I drove up Broad Street through the heart of South Philly to Center City before heading back to New Jersey via the Ben Franklin Bridge to change into some more casual clothes. I called a couple people to let them know how the interview went before heading to Cherry Hill to grab some pizza at the King of Pizza on Route 70, as reccommended by a friend. Afterwards, I headed back into Philly to do some more exploring. I also wanted to check out a couple of apartment complexes in South Jersey, but the traffic across the Walt Whitman Bridge and down I-76 was so horrendous I immediately ruled out living in that area and headed back to Philly. No way in hell I was going to sit through that mess every day. I stopped into the Drexel bookstore to browse around a bit, and also drove around through Germantown, Mt. Airy, Fairmount Park, the City Line area (where I grabbed dinner at a KFC that is somehow located in an old mansion). I then headed into Center City to log on at the Kinko’s on Market Street to check my e-mail and see what was happening on SubTalk. Knowing I had to get up early the next morning to head to New York, I retired to my hotel in Maple Shade.
Saturday, 15 June 2002
My alarm went off at 6:00 AM, and I got dressed and got in the car, planning to drive to Trenton and take NJ Transit into NYC. However, once I was out on I-295 and realized how light the traffic was, I decided to cut over to the NJ Turnpike and drive all the way into New York. What the hell, I figured… I’ve flown to New York before, I’ve taken the bus to New York, I’ve taken the train, but I had never driven there.
The New Jersey Turnpike is like a giant racetrack, and I did about 85 MPH all the way to NYC. Amazingly, I still had people tailgating me and passing me. As I had originally planned, I went up to the George Washington Bridge, down Broadway almost the full length of Manhattan, across the Brooklyn Bridge, and then the Gowanus Expressway through Brooklyn. However, I mistakenly took the wrong ramp off the Gowanus, and ended up driving down Ocean Parkway all the way to Avenue Z. However, traffic was very light, even down Broadway in Manhattan, so I covered a lot of ground within a pretty short time. I made a left on Avenue Z and headed over to Sheepshead Bay, where I had been told I should look to find parking. Sure enough, I found a spot to park on 15th Street just a half-block from the Brighton Line, and only two blocks from the Sheepshead Bay station.
After purchasing an all-day FunPass from the MVM and picking up a current Map, I went upstairs and grabbed a southbound (Q) shuttle to Coney Island. (Due to a GO over the weekend, the Q was running as a shuttle between Prospect Park and Coney Island, with another Q running on the Sea Beach line into Manhattan.) I got off at Coney Island and purchased a little disposable camera at a small grocery store on Stillwell Avenue. With a gray sky, chilly temperatures, and even some drizzle, it looked more like November than mid-June. The amusement parks were nearly deserted, making Coney Island take on a strange film noir quality. I ended up using all the shots on my little camera just at Coney Island. I hope to return someday on a warm summer night with a decent digital camera, so that I can take some pics of Coney Island when it’s full of life and color. (I just had the photos developed yesterday, and they turned out great. However, my scanner doesn’t really do them justice, so I’ll have to make other arrangements to have them scanned before I can share them online.)
Leaving Coney Island, I decided to take the Culver Line (F) to Manhattan. (I had just been on a portion of the Brighton line, and the Sea Beach line bores me to tears, quite frankly.) After passing through the glorious Smith/9th Street station, I got off at Jay Street/Borough Hall and transferred to the (A) train to Broadway-Nassau. My destination: Ground Zero. Not to be a voyeuristic tourist, but to pay my respects and so that I would never forget what it looked like. The sight was beyond words.
Seeking some lunch before I was to meet up with the SubTalk crowd at Times Square, I re-entered the station at Broadway-Nassau, swiped my FunPass at the “iron maiden” gate and, doing like I reflexively do at revolving doors, pushed the gate forward as I entered. However, after only going 1/4 a turn, it abruptly stopped, still leaving me outside fare control. I quickly realized my mistake of pushing the gate forward ahead of me. I didn’t feel like waiting around another 18 minutes to use my FunPass again, so I hiked up to Houston Street in search of Katz’s Deli. I couldn’t find Katz’s (and since I had left directions in my car, I didn’t really even know where to look), but I did stumble across the Lot 76 surplus store. Cool! I’ll have to return to that place when I have more time and a much fatter wallet. Still hungry and with my 18-minute FunPass penalty now passed, I got on the subway at Broadway-Lafayette and took an (F) train to 34th Street, where I transferred to an (N) train to Times Square. While taking the escalator up from the (F) platform at 34th, I just barely spotted a diesel-powered work train passing through the station on the southbound local track. It appeared to be a train of three or four ballast cars.
I arrived at Times Square around 1:00 PM, and only had an hour before meeting the SubTalk crowd. I quickly went into the Marriott Marquis to use the men’s room, and then grabbed a quick bite at the McDonald’s a couple blocks north before heading back down into the station.
When I arrived at the designated coordinates, heypaul was already there. Kevin Walsh showed up shortly afterwards, and Doug (BMT Man) was running a bit late but still managed to meet up with us after a while. I didn’t really have a specific itinerary in mind for where we would go, although I had never really seen the Flushing Line, Broadway Junction, the Franklin Shuttle, the R142’s, the R143’s, nor the R40 slants. I never got a chance to ride the R142’s, but we saw a few go past on the IRT express tracks while waiting at Times Square.
After exchanging pleasantries, we all headed down to the (7) Flushing Line platform and made our way to the railfan window of a train of Redbirds. We took the (7) line to 74th/Broadway, passing through the impressive Queesboro Plaza station along the way. At 74th, we transferred to the (G) to Metropolitan Avenue. From there it was a short transfer to the Grand Street station of the (L) line. I had been warned ahead of time that the R143’s weren’t running on weekends, but my eyes lit up with I saw a train of R40 slants pulling into the station. We perched at the railfan window, and I immediately saw why people love the slants so much. We stayed there until we got to Broadway Junction. Talk about a model builder’s dream –- or a nightmare... What an incredible tangle of metal and trackwork that station is! We spotted a few R143’s in the yard down below, and we would later spot one or two more in the yard at Canarsie. As we pulled into the station, we were informed that due to a weekend GO, this train would terminate at Broadway Junction, and if we wished to head all the way to Rockaway Parkway, we’d have to get on another train on the opposite side of the platform. We did as instructed and got to the front of a crowded R42 where Doug recognized the motorman and began chatting. Due to the GO, the line was only single-track with bagged signals the entire way.
We arrived at Canarsie, and grabbed some pizza at a local pizzeria near the station. My verdict of New York-style pizza? Not bad at all, although I tend to think of it as more of a quick snack or a lunch. For a full meal, I’d still have to go for a nice fat slab of Chicago-style pizza.
After pizza, we took a short walk around the neighborhood, with Kevin and Doug pointing out the remnants of the old ROW that once continued beyond its present terminus. We then got back on the (L) shuttle and returned to Broadway Junction, again on the single track.
At Broadway Junction, we headed downstairs to the subway station below, where we caught an inbound (A) express train to Nostrand, where we went downstairs and transferred to a (C) local train to Franklin Avenue. Up until today, and despite several previous trips to New York, I had never before noticed the differences between BMT-style and IND-style wall tiling, but Doug and Kevin happily enlightened me along our journey. The BMT style is quite beautiful, although I still admire the machine-like efficiency of the IND in general.
At Franklin Avenue, we took the elevator upstairs and made our way to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle platform. It’s apparently a running joke that every railfan trip with Doug always ends up on the Franklin Shuttle sooner or later, but I can confirm that this time it was, indeed, my idea. Doug happily pointed out the highlights of the Shuttle as we made our way from Franklin Avenue to Prospect Park. Arriving at Prospect Park, we crossed over and boarded a train of R68’s on the (Q) shuttle bound for Coney Island on the Brighton Line.
It had been ages since I was last on the Brighton Line (not counting my short trip earlier that morning), and it was an interesting ride through an open cut before going up onto an earthen embankment. I don’t have any strong feelings one way or the other about the R68’s, but the car we were on, car 2805, seemed to have a problem with the brakes. Riding between stations was very smooth, but whenever the train began to slow down for the next stop, car 2805 vibrated loudly and came to a very rough stop. It almost reminded me of my Trans Am before I had the rotors and pads changed. The four of us tried to think of an explanation for the car’s strange behavior, but we were at a loss. Sounds like a question for Train Dude.
Finally, Coney Island. We got off the train, and took a look at the ongoing rebuilding of the Stillwell Avenue terminal. There’s nothing left of the little concourse of shops that one used to pass through when leaving the station, and it appears that the easternmost platform and tracks have also been demolished. It will be interesting to see what the new station looks like when all the construction is complete. There’s an architectural rendering mounted outside the station, but it’s pretty vague.
Like moths to a flame, we headed over to Nathan’s to grab a bit to eat and drink. There’s a nice little area with picnic tables just to the west of Nathan’s building, enabling us to eat outside among the pigeons and screaming children. We then walked over to the boardwalk, and decided to walk west toward the new ballpark, the old parachute drop, and the magnificent ruin of Child’s Restaurant facing the boardwalk.
As we turned around to head back towards the amusement parks, Doug and Kevin parted with us to head back into the city, leaving Paul and myself to wander around the rides and game booths. It was getting later in the evening, so there was much more activity than when I had been there earlier that morning. Most of the rides were operating, many of the booths and games were open, and there were quite a few people around. It still wasn’t quite as active as I remember it from previous visits, but I had typically been to Coney Island much later in the evening those times. Regardless, it was still a fun atmosphere, and I couldn’t help but smile as I took it all in. Such a refreshing change from the sanitized suburban theme parks, Coney Island in all its rawness and spontaneity is one of the few places I’ve been where I can still feel like a kid. Mickey Mouse can go pound dirt; I’d take Coney Island over Disney World any day of the week.
After riding the Cyclone – something I promised myself I’d try to do at least once each summer – Paul and I boarded the B36 bus back to Sheepshead Bay. After I short ride along Avenue Z to 15th Street, we got off and walked two blocks north to where my car was parked. I gave Paul a ride back to his apartment a few blocks away, and he invited me upstairs and showed me his motorman’s cab (my God, he actually does have a motorman’s cab in his bedroom) and his extensive collection of old radios and other memorabilia.
Finally, the time came for me to return to Philly. I got onto the Belt Parkway, went across the Varrazano-Narrows Bridge (wow, that’s a huge friggin’ bridge!), across Staten Island via the Staten Island Expressway, and across the Goethalls Bridge to the New Jersey Turnpike. The rest of the trip to Philly was uneventful, and I retired to my hotel for a much-needed rest. Tomorrow would be a very long day.
Sunday, 16 June 2002
Today would be the day I head back to Chicago. But first, I wanted to attend a morning worship service in Philly. I wasn’t quite sure which church I would go to, but I decided to check out St. Luke’s Episcopal Church in Germantown for two reasons: 1) It had been reccommended to me by somebody on Beliefnet.com, and 2) I had passed it while driving around Friday, so I already knew where it was. I didn’t quite dress up in my Sunday best, as I didn’t feel like driving 770 miles while wearing a suit, but I did what I could to dress dignified yet comfortable. I arrived at the church and found a place to park nearby, and headed inside.
I felt slightly awkward when I looked around and realized I was quite literally the only white person in the congregation, but I settled in and enjoyed the worship service. As liberal and open-minded as I like to think I am, this was an eye-opening experience for me. So much for my stereotypes of African-American “Amen” Gospel churches; St. Luke’s is about as high church as Anglicans get, to the point where they could give Westminster Abbey a run for their money. It was a beautiful and dignified mass, and the people seemed friendly enough, but it’s doubtful I’ll make St. Luke’s my permanent church home once I move to Philly. However, I don’t regret spending my Sunday morning there, and I look forward to visiting other churches in Philadelphia.
After the mass, I ducked out and checked my voice mail for any messages. I had been expecting a leasing agent to call me that morning about showing me an apartment nearby, but since I keep my cell phone turned off during church, I was hoping this person had left a message. Nothing. So I got in my car and found my way to I-76.
I followed the same route home that I had come out, and since I was hitting the entirety of the Pennsylvania Turnpike during daylight hours and during better weather, it wasn’t nearly as harrowing. The only hitch on the trip came when I left the Turnpike around Pittsburgh to fill up on gas, and I mistakenly took the wrong ramp to get back on. To my horror, I was heading back towards Philly. I didn’t have much choice except to go the nine miles to the next exit to make a U-turn and head back in the right direction. Amazing how one split-second brain fart added 18 miles to my trip and a couple dollars in extra tolls.
However, the rest of the trip was uneventful, and I averaged about 80 MPH the entire way back to Chicago. I even sustained 85 a couple times through Ohio and Indiana, as it was getting later and there was hardly any traffic in my way. Times like that make me very happy to be driving a Trans Am! I finally arrived in Chicago around 1:00 AM local time, and promptly hit the sack soon after getting home.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds like you enjoyed yourself!
Philly is an awesome city to live in, you will definitely have a blast there.
Katz's in New York is on E. Houston Street, in the Lower East Side. Its about 2 blocks EAST of the (F)2nd Av-LES First Av exit. There is a big vertical white sign that says KATZ'S....if you were on a budget it was probably wise to skip it. The awe-inspiring, juicy, colossal pastrami sandwich is $10.
You will definitely have a blast in the Philly area, the transit system is amazing. Its probably the most diverse system in America. You will enjoy warm summer Friday nights on South Street, 4th of July at Penn's landing, and shopping at the Gallery in the chilly winter. One of the first things you should do is take the City Hall tour...its kind of touristy but you go up to the observation deck and the view is astounding. If you are moving before November, make sure you vote for Ed Rendell for governor...he used to be a hugely popular Philly mayor in the 90s. Old City is great during the spring, before the tourist season gets into full swing. You would probably enjoy living in the city more than out in Media, but Media is probably cheaper. A good 1-bedroom in Center City is about $800, but areas like South Philly can be cheaper, and University City is also nice (just ask Michalovic). Germantown has some beautiful areas, but it also has some areas where you need to watch yourself. And just try to stay out of North Philly altogether (the area between germantown and center city) Have fun!
Dave GREAT full report! Now can I have that in triplicate? ;-D
About the photos, don't fret -- I just downloaded my camera's shots to the hardp-drive. I'll have some sent to you in the morning. You can pick out the ones you'd might like to include in your report.
Thanks... Any suggestions for getting my own photos scanned? When I scan them myself, they come up much too dark and lacking in detail. (I've also noticed this problem on other photos I've scanned in the past, so it's nothing new. Compare my photos in the CTA line-by-line section with other people's photos.) I should have gotten a photo CD-ROM made when I dropped them off for developing, but I went to a one-hour place and didn't feel like waiting a few days.
Is it possible for me to bring the prints or negatives to a photo shop and get some decent-quality scans made? How much would that cost me?
Damn, I need to get myself a digital camera one of these days...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Most scanner utilities include a brightness adjust, fiddle with that a bit. You can also adjust brightness in a standard image editor like Photoshoppe or Paint Shoppe Pro.
Or, If you happen to have Broderbund's Print Shop 11, on the install disk is Broderbund's Print Shop Photo Pro Express 2. It's a bang-up photo editor with all the features you can need. It accepts almost every format and does a good job converting them to .jpg for the Web.
My scanner's default TWAIN program loves to do the output as .bmp's. Photo Pro does the edits and converts them to a nice tight .jpg with no loss of clarity or color distortion.
Broderbund took it out of Print Shop 12, but I kept the install CD from 11 around just for the photo editor.
It does a good job on crops of those streetcar shots from 1962 and 63 with all kinds of junk in the pic with the car.
I fiddled with both the brightness setting on the scanner utility, as well as the brightness setting within PhotoShop 5.0 itself. Nothing really worked, and as I continued scanning, the quality of the scans continued to deteriorate. Even some yellow vertical streaks began showing up on the images. Pretty sure the scanner itself is crapping out... Oh, joy.
I took the negatives to a Wolf Camera store, where they'll scan them onto a CD-ROM for me. Yet another reason to get myself a digital camera...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Old scanners tubes have that problem. When the scanner tube/detector thingy gets warm, the picture first become fuzzier and then later they go all discolored. Try waiting for a while (like 4 hours) between scans. Get a new scanner (the tube is rarely worth replacing, unless the scanner is one of those HP ScanJet ones that are legal sized and made in the old days -- pre-1995).
AEM7
Try waiting for a while (like 4 hours) between scans
Yeah, right... At that rate, I'll have all 27 of my photos scanned in about two weeks.
Get a new scanner (the tube is rarely worth replacing, unless the scanner is one of those HP ScanJet ones that are legal sized and made in the old days -- pre-1995).
Ah, well... My scanner is a few years old, and was a bargain-basement one at that. I guess it's about time to send it out to pasture.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oh, forgot to mention, you can get pics scanned from negative to CD ROM also. Usually you need to go to a specialist photo shop. If you have it done after the negatives have been cut up, they will charge you anywhere between 40 cents and $2 per frame.
AEM7
If you want high-quality scans, you should scan from the negatives instead of prints. Also, get your film processed at a place that is either completely automated (nobody ever touched the film) or that wears gloves when handling the film (even small 1-hour places will usually do this if you request it).
A high-end negative scanner is the Canon FS4000US - it handles strips of up to 6 negatives (or 6 slides) and can operate at resolutions up to 4000DPI in 40-bit color. It connects via USB or SCSI. It sells for about $750. It is a wonderful scanner, if a bit slow at the higher resolutions. It also has automatic dust removal (by masking).
For scanning prints, the Canon N1240U (about $120) is a great unit. It is USB-only and tiny for what it does. Other models in the line can also scan negatives.
If you're doing scanning in bulk and have lots of money to burn, an Epson Expression 1640XL with transparency/negative adapter will let you put about 2 rolls worth of negatives/slides in at once, and will scan them to individual files. This will be about $2500 before any extra interfaces (Ethernet, Firewire, etc.).
To get an idea of what the FS4000US can do, take a look here and here. These are cut-down versions of the original 140MB scans. The originals look fine printed at 13x19 - you couldn't tell they weren't printed photographically without looking at the back of the paper. The film was Fuji Press 800, which accounts for some of the grain in the shots - the rest is JPEG artifacting from the heavy compression.
Dave, you should be able to lighten and/or clean up the shots if you have a Photoshop-type program. Even MS Photo-Paint might be able to help...
I tried, but I'm now pretty sure it's a problem with my scanner. Looks like it's finally crapping out on me. I just dropped the negatives off at Wolf Photo, and they'll scan them to a CD-ROM for me.
-- David
Chicago, IL
So you had your first experience with New Jersey's famous "jug handles" at major intersections. It can be confusing if you're not used to them, but it sure beats trying to negotiate a traffic circle.
I read about the Skyway being rebuilt. As I understand it, they're replacing much of the elevated portion above Indianapolis Blvd. with an embankment. The main span across the Calumet River will remain.
Judging from the newest Rand McNally atlas, they've added a bunch of exits to the Ohio Turnpike in recent years.
We stayed overnight in Breezewood a few times back in the 60s.
Here's a few photos that Doug "BMT Man" just sent to me from our trip last weekend...
Click on a tumbnail for a full-size image:
A face only a mother could love (the R40 slant, not me). I've always ridden the 'L' in Chicago, now I have proof that I've ridden the L in New York!
Kevin Walsh against the wall, myself at the end of the bench, and some guy staring at us. At the Franklin Avenue station on the C line, as we head upstairs to make the transfer to the shuttle.
Left to right: Myself, Kevin Walsh, and Paul "heypaul" Kronenberg on the pedestrian bridge to the Franklin Shuttle.
Kevin Walsh dutifully pointing the way to Manhattan and Brooklyn, with me supervising his efforts.
Kevin Walsh (left) and myself chilling out in the business end of an R42 on the Canarsie line.
-- David
Chicago, IL
nice photos
Ahem. That last shot is of an R-40, not an R-42 (although it looks like one of its seats is borrowed off an R-42 -- that happens sometimes on the ENY cars).
Looks like you had fun.
Oops, my bad. Now that I take a closer look at the photo, I remember that we were, in fact, still on the R40 slant when Doug took the shot.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Great Photos!! Oh I didn't even know that they finally opened up the other side at Broadway ENY, I cross broadway everyday on the A Line but never got a chance to see if they upgraded the upper level.
Opened up the other side? What do you mean? There's one side platform and one island platform. The side platform is theoretically dispensable, but since it's more convenient from the rest of the complex, Canarsie-bound trains usually open on that side. The other platform is used by Manhattan-bound trains. (It's also used by trains on the Canarsie-bound track when single-tracking requires split service at BJ. Why send everyone through the overpass?)
An explanation: Southbound Canarsie trains normally discharge passengers on the rightside (western-most) platform. This gives customers easy access to transfers to the A/C via the escalators, or the J/Z with the overpass stairway. However, on this particular day there was a GO on the Canarsie Line that had Southbound trains from 14th & 8th Ave. terminating at Broadway Junction. So to continue on to Rockaway Parkway, shuttle train service was provided via Canarise trains wrong-railing south to Rockaway Parkway (included bagged signals). So customers accessed the shuttle trains (on the northbound tracks) directly across the platform from the terminated trains on the southbound tracks.
I know all that. I think I even said it all (in different words). I'm trying to figure out why Acela is surprised that the island platform is open at all; if it weren't open, Manhattan-bound trains wouldn't be able to open their doors at Broadway Junction.
Oh no the usually shy Heypaul is caught on film.
I met a sombody in the TA last night, socially. He saw my Subway Series hat & asked if I worked for the TA. I said no, I was a railfan, "you're heard of those haven't you ?".
Great photos, Dave.
Lots of luck with your new position.
Great trip!!! You was in my area when you took the (A) to Nostrand Ave. (Crown Heights, Bklyn).
Tidbit from CBC's arts section:
---
Photo show looks at subway systems
Last Updated 2002-06-18
Paul Grant, The Arts Report
Vancouver - Photographer Sylvia Grace Borda spent a lot of time on rapid transit while she was working in Tokyo and London, and found many similarities between the two systems.
Borda spent five years documenting them in a series of 80 photographs, mostly black and white, that are now on display in a show called Capital Cities. She says the systems are also similar in that they serve much the same function. "That's actually the reality of any transit system is that it really is the umbilical cord," she said. "It ties all the suburbs together."
She says transit systems are the bricks-and-mortar intersections between culture and commerce. "As a photographer, you're looking for repeated forms, so that when you edit the work together, there's greater continuity," she said, adding that the chaotic geometries offer insights into the strained relationship we all have with one of our most common experiences.
Capital Cities is at the Centre A Gallery in Vancouver until July 6.
For more arts news, listen to The Arts Report weekdays at 7:12 a.m., 8:12 a.m. and 5:55 p.m. on CBC Radio Two.
website with photos please ??
Do you think "Goodbye Acela" and "Metroliner (was: California via NEC)" are doomed threads?
AEM7
I hope not...there are some really good posts mixed in the Acela one.....
Hard to say, mon ... we gotta look at the TAROT cards ... you're calling on Sister Selkirk's 900 number, no? :)
MBTA or NYCTA:
What's the longest time you have been delayed (i.e. train sitting stopped in a tunnel) on the subway?
Mine was one time when the train sat for 8 minutes without moving in a tunnel because the previous train had a BIE.
You can add up the delays if they occur while you are on the same line as part of a trip. Diversion delays, connection delays and cancellation or bus substitution delats don't count.
AEM7
Due to a broken rail on the Norhtern Boulevard Express section of the E and F lines. It took 36 minutes to travel betweeen 71st Avenue and Roosevelt on the E line.
I was stuck on a J train between Cypress Hills and Crescent Street (the curve Manhattan-bound just at the Crescent station) for almost 50 minutes about 10 years ago. I don't know what the problem was, although it was lightly snowing. I think I know every inch and every brick on the buildings right there. It was short of torture....only be in a tunnel for that long could have been worse.
I spent 50 Minutes stuck at Hunt Point Ave do to a A/C Power failure on the Pelham Line.
That's nothing.
Just this Sunday, there were major delays on the Sea Beach line for a few hours due to switch problems. I was on two Q's (with a break in the middle for photos) right around when the problems were cleared up, but the residual delays cost me about ten minutes.
In the summer of 1992(?), during rush hour, I was trying to get from 42nd to 86th on a 1/9. We spent about ten minutes at each station and about ten minutes stopped midway between stations. This was during rush hour; most of us were standing the whole time. A few of us stepped off onto the platform at 79th for a change, and one was daring enough to ask the station agent if he could transfer to the M104 bus upstairs. (He was told he couldn't, and that since he'd stepped outside of fare control to ask a question, he'd have to pay another fare to get back in.) Then the C/R tried to close the doors with no "stand clear" announcement, but one of us on the platform had quick enough reflexes to grab a door.
So it was switch problems?
Yes, according to Alex. The problem was north of 8th Avenue and lasted about 1.5 hours. And I just thought the train in front of us had a few dead motors.
November 1965, great Northeast power blackout ... about an hour and a half, IRT Broadway local northbound, just north of 191st ... from there, the delays got much less in severity and intensity. I was more forgiving. :)
23 Hours, 30 minutes on the Brighton Line during a Noreaster in the beginning of 1993 or 94. Of course that wouldn't count as that train was O/S waiting for a rescue train at Avenue M in 3 feet of snow. I recall ripping my hair out as I was on my Friday, and didn't qualify for the next day off with pay clause, a rule that allows for empoloyees who work over 20 hours in emergencies to get a paid day off without using saved allowances. Impressive Snowvertime slip, I should look in the files.
Wow. I've had layovers at Stillwell that felt like that. Alas, the eagle laid the normal biweekly egg. But yeah, I've done snow duty on the Brighton but we had Arnines. They went. The heat from the grids and motors got us through. :)
My evening commute on the Red Line once took about two hours longer than normal, including about 45 minutes of sitting in pitch-darkness in the tunnel with no lights and no air circulation. Read all about it here.
-- David
Chicago, IL
(1) How do you get the Nthward destination panel to come up like that? I mean did you make the gif yourself? Could you make me one? Pretty pleeeeease.... That is just sooooo coool LOL
(2)
My evening commute, normally via the CTA Red Line from Jackson to Berwyn, got off to a normal start. I even managed to get a decent seat next to a cute young lady as I boarded at Jackson.
Did anything come off that? I mean, 45 mins in a steamy, dark el car in a tunnel? Were you dating someone else at the time?
I do also tend to have a habit of scouting for cute young ladies on the subway. It seems that Chicago is even more of a crusing ground than BOS, at least according to Metra's Bilevel:
"I enjoy riding the Rock Island. The ticket agent (Connie) and the coffee lady brighten my mornings. To the guy who wrote about the commuter lady who boards the train at Mokena: Get up a bit earlier and check out the brunette who boards the first train at Tinley Park-80th Avenue. She's a genuine knockout with beautiful baby brown eyes. And, she's real friendly and easy to talk to--you'll know her when you see her. Seems she always sits with electricians. If that's your trade, get up and ask her out (wish I could)."
See http://metrarail.com/OTBL/index.html
AEM7
(1) How do you get the Nthward destination panel to come up like that? I mean did you make the gif yourself? Could you make me one? Pretty pleeeeease.... That is just sooooo coool LOL
I made it myself using a combination of AutoCAD, PhotoShop, and a shareware GIF animation program. It was actually a huge pain in the ass, which is why I only made one like that. Glad you like it, though.
Did anything come off that? I mean, 45 mins in a steamy, dark el car in a tunnel? Were you dating someone else at the time?
I'm not the type of person to initiate conversations with complete strangers in public -- no matter how cute they are -- and most ladies in Chicago are street-smart enough to know when some idiot on the 'L' is trying to hit on them. That's not my style, and I probably would have ended up with a face full of pepper spray. At the time, I was more concerned about getting off that train so that I could get some fresh air and take a much-needed leak.
I do also tend to have a habit of scouting for cute young ladies on the subway. It seems that Chicago is even more of a crusing ground than BOS, at least according to Metra's Bilevel...
I actually think Boston had cuter ladies on the subway than Chicago, but most of them seemed to be frat-house airheads just out of high school. (The jury is still out on Philly's ladies.) I think New York has by far the best "scenery", though.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I actually think Boston had cuter ladies on the subway than Chicago,
*bangs on my chest with my fists like a chimpanzee*
Two of my ex-girlfriends are from the Boston Subway :)
but most of them seemed to be frat-house airheads just out of high school.
Depends on who you look at. Obviously the ones that are generally considered cutest will be the frat-house airheads, but that is true wherever you go, not just on the subway. I happen to have quite different tastes, so I do come across a lot of potentially compatible people on the subway. Let's see -- of the people I met on the Boston subway... some were international students, others were locals at the local colleges, many were just young professionals living in the area, and a few were older but nonetheless just as cute and chatty.
Actually, come to think of it, you can usually filter out the frat house airheads in the first 5 mins. The airheads don't really talk anyway cuz they figure they are too "good" to talk to "common" people on the subway. And anyway as soon as you talk about some kind of travel/cultural experiences they just stare you blankly and don't know how to respond. This is when I just don't bother with it anymore. The last person I really engaged in a conversation (very cute, long brown hair, big eyes) turned out to have spent a year in France and majored in International Relations and French as an undergrad, and is going to Harvard Extension School. Hardly an airhead.
I've consistently had better luck on the Red Line than I do on the Green Line.
(The jury is still out on Philly's ladies.)
Don't even try in Philly. Especially on PATCO, they are just as stuck up as the had always been. A friend warned me that I mustn't talk to anyone on PATCO when I went PATCOfanning with him. He thinks I am weird for talking to random people on the subway, and unfortunately he is pretty typical of the Philly population...
AEM7
He thinks I am weird for talking to random people on the subway, and unfortunately he is pretty typical of the Philly population...
In that case, I'll probably fit right in there... I don't invade other people's privacy on the subway, and I hate it when my own privacy is invaded. I love Chicagoans, but I've always felt that Midwesterners in general were too "chatty" for my tastes.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Mine was one time when the train sat for 8 minutes without moving in a tunnel because the previous train had a BIE.
What does BIE mean?
BrakesInEmergency caused by the following ways:
-Train ran a red signal and trip arm tripped the train
-Someone pulled the emergency cord
-Train was charged at another location in the train
-Brake pipe leak (yikes...not a pretty one)
-Motorman let go of the controller without putting the train into emergency or full service brake
-And the obvious, pulling the brake handle to the emergency position
Any other ways?
Something other than a trip arm tripped the train.
Thank you for the Heads Up.
A train gets my vote !!
I'd have to count two incidents.
1) NB and Southbound F trains entered Prospect Park 15th Street at the same time, leading to a power failure with both trains dead on the line. I'm not sure how long the power failure was, but after 20 minutes my wife and I left and walked the 20 minutes up to the IRT.
2) The second day after the blizzard of 1996. The F train was running underground as a shuttle to 4th Avenue -- it was packed with people waiting for hours. So we walked down to Prospect Avenue on the 4th Avenue line, which was running with limited service since it was underground. The trains were packed, but running, albeit VERY slowly. Total delay, 30 minutes.
After the WTC disaster we had a longer ride each day, but not by much. Since we worked Downtown, by the time we got back to work the system was running with its revised structure. I guess you could count the WTC disaster as a subway delay, since no trains were running and people had to walk miles home, but no one tried to board the trains, so I guess it doesn't count. Similarly, I guess the strikes don't count.
My father was stuck on an N train for almost an hour once either on or approaching the Manhattan Bridge in May of 1967. He met us at the Museum of Natural History after visiting his cousin, and when I wanted to go subway riding, I was overruled. My folks didn't like the idea of possibly encountering another delay. We subsequently caught an AA back to Port Authority.
60+ minutes at Smith/ 9th Sts on a southbound F. A passenger had a heart attack and we were waiting for EMS to arrive. I sat it out, because I didn't really expect it to take that long for help to arrive. Who knew that EMS would be unable to find the highest elevated station in the system?
Maybe the escalator was broken and EMS wanted to avoid a second heart attack.
The only prolonged delay I experienced due to a sick passenger was on the Livonia el -- during single-track operation! So much for schedules.
I had a 40 minute delay once because of some poor man that had a heart attack on the LIRR. I was on the mainline going to Ronkonkoma, and the train pulled into the station at Farmingdale. They opened the doors and then announced that we would be there a while. So the train made about a half hour stop at Farmingdale. Most people didn't complain though because they knew that the reason was because that poor man had a heart attack.
My longest delay was on September 13, 2001. My usual 1/9 to Houston Street wasn't running, so I took an A from Penn Station to West 4th. Everything went fine to 14th Street, but once leaving that station we came to a dead stop. After being stopped for maybe a half hour, the train began moving but soon stopped again for about 15 minutes. This second stop was just short of West 4th. It took a total of 45 minutes to get from 14th to West 4th.
No explanation was given for the delay beyond "red signals up ahead," but under the circumstances (take note of the date) it was understandable. No one really complained much.
90 minutes on MBTA Commuter Train #815 last October, when a combination of falling leaves and drizzle made for "black rail" conditions heading up the hill from Canton Junction to Sharon. It seems no one remembered that during the autumn you need SAND in the engine for just this purpose!
I've never had anything ridiculous in NYC but on the DC Metro, they once decided to do trackwork at Farragut North during the morning rush on a Thursday. Who knows why. My usual 10 minute trip took 40 minutes, including 20 minutes between Woodley Park and DuPont Circle. I got plenty of time to stare at the tunnel wall between Woodley and DuPont, it really does look like Luray (sp?) Caverns.
I would guess emergency track work, like replacing a broken rail.
My customers and I sat at Bergen Street for 45 minutes due to sick passenger at GAP. I was steaming because as soon as we left Atlantic, the T/O of the train ahead of us called it in. We could have got turned to go back uptown at Atlantic Ave.
If you guys remember that Saturday night in February where power between Newark and Metropark was lost and all the trains out of NYP from 5:32p and until the rest of the day were either turned back or not running, a Conductor on our 30-minute or so delayed 1:41a train said that people wanting to get to Bay Head got delayed up to 11 hours. We were delayed 4 hours in getting home, but, I feel really sorry for those people who couldn't get their adequate sleep because of this delay.
Large amounts of time were spent (on the 1:41a that DID make it past Metropark) at Newark Penn Sta. and Elizabeth. We were following the NJCL scheduled to run 5 minutes ahead of us. Some people (when we stopped at Elizabeth) were pondering to take a cab but the conductor reassured them that there are none at this hour (it was now around 2:30-3:00a and the ones the passengers did find charged outrageous rates for 3 station stops south of Elizabeth.)
Newark and Elizabeth were painstaking (but enjoyable to a railfan) delays, as we finally arrived Metuchen at 4:38a. What a day.
The conductor and the T/C's were favorable to us in not collecting our tickets for such an inconvenience that was not even NJT's fault. I think it was fair enough, large amounts of delays for no fare being collected. I guess if one makes a mistake, we need to stick together in coping with it.
On Monday I was at Co-op City at Earhart Lane waiting for the QBX1 bus,totally forgetting about the strike,i wound up taking the Bx26 to the Concourse instead.anyway,while i was at Earhart Lane,i saw a train go by that had Acela on it.Does anyone know where those types of trains go or start from?first time i saw it,EVER
You got to do alot of catching up with the Acela, the Acela may have been coming from the Sunnyside Yard or could be going N/B coming Penn Station or S/B going to Penn Station.
You either saw an Acela Express or an Acela Regional although it was most likely an Acela Express. Did the train have normal Amtrak passenger coaches or had you never seen those coaches before? The Acela Express is Amtrak's premium service betweeen Boston and Washington. The Acela Regional goes between Boston and Newport News, VA.
Those trains are the best you'll ever see in modern quality in this time. If you've noticed that there is a second power car in the back of the train, then it's an Acela Express. These trains travel in branches between the major transit hubs of Boston, New York Penn, and Washington-Union Sta. on the entire NE Corridor line (except Newport News). Carbody design has large, rounded rectangular windows and colorful designs on the sides. The train tends to be more "flat" and less round than the current Amfleet cars.
Amfleets have kind of squished rectangular windows and have corrugations in the entire height of the train besides the design panel along the windows. You can instantly notice their "roundness."
Acela Regionals are pulled by less aerodynamic HHP-8's and pull Amfleets. The "Acela" logo is also a lot smaller on these than the new AE Expresses.
Acela Express rules in the Train world, it is the king of all trains.
Well it has revolutionized the NEC from its currently operating railcars. Looks like the old-traditional NEC is growing further away....
>>>...it is the king of all trains. <<<
Hardly the KING of all trains.....but a nice train none the less.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's the King of Trains in my opinion
If you think that's the king, you should've been around in the days of PRRs GG-1s. I was lucky enough to ride in the cab of one of those when I was 11 years old. (1966 for those of you keeping count).
Peace,
ANDEE
No, AcelaExpress is King, because AEM-7 is the Queen and GG-1 was the Queen Mother. The King is powerless in the face of those two.
AEM7
ROTHFLMAO,
Peace,
ANDEE
Never!!!
No, AcelaExpress is King, because AEM-7 is the Queen and GG-1 was the Queen Mother. The King is powerless in the face of those two.
LOL! Isn't that how it usually works?!
No, AcelaExpress is King, because AEM-7 is the Queen and GG-1 was the Queen Mother. The King is powerless in the face of those two.
LOL! Isn't that how it usually works?!
Speaking of the GG-1, I don't know much about it, Can someone post some interesting facts about the GG-1? Thanks
-AcelaExpress2005
It was a big electric engine. One of the finest ever made. Handsome too. :.(
Elias
How much HP?
Do you know that hp ratings for electric engines doesn't make sense? An electric engine can output as much hp as necessary for as long as necessary, until its motors burn up. For example, the one-hour rating of a motor is different from the ten-minute rating of a motor. So it doesn't make sense to ask how many hp an electric engine develops.
They say a steam engine can haul a train that it can start, and a diesel engine can start a train it can haul. Well an electric is kinda weird, it can start a train that it can't haul but it definitely can't haul a train it can't start. So the hp depends on the speed and for how long you need that many hp for. Typically, most modern electric engines develop more than 15,000hp when starting a train. It is why you get that "electric" acceleration. But you can't keep starting and stopping because it will burn up the motors. That's why subway cars traction motors are more difficult to build because they are constantly being abused at high overload ratings.
AEM7
And thats why the subways switched to AC. Less amps are needed for acceleration than DC engines.
Watts are better.
good point but 3,730,000 watts instead of 5000hp becomes complitcated in the head. Unless you want kilo-watts or mega-watts; which shoud be associated with Power station generators! NOT trains engines! Also you can compare train engines with you friends triked-out Mitsubishi (nitrogen tanks in the rear).
The cars should be in kW and MW too. HP is stupid and should be removed from use.
Not until fuel cells/ or electric-hybrids become norm. You pour bleach into your battery for extra performance.
Here's a good link to a GG-1 page.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks
Here are some of my GG1 photos for those who are interested:
Penn Central freight
4800 "Old Rivets" in gaudy Conrail Bicentennial scheme: this was the trip where she pulled an E60 (for HEP only) and 22 cars without straining
Amtrak red/blue/silver
Broadway Limited: the train stopped right next to me and the crew inspected the wheels, then resumed the eastbound trip.
4800 repainted this was a "grab shot" from the driver's seat of my car while stopped in traffic.
4877 at South Street Philly
NJT 4877 in South Amboy
Sorry to talk about the GG-1, they thing may be powerful, but it's ugly & doofy!
Need I say more?
LOL! You used my subject "Respect the R-44" and changed it to "Respect the GG-1", you used my own words against me.
Yeah. Respect the GG-1. It's a bit of a monster, and it's shape is kinda dated (although I think that the Brunswick Green scheme with the whiskers has a sort of timeless class to it, just like the Acela locomotive "whoosh"), but it's to be respected.
AEM7 bows to her predecessor, GG-1 and the Pennsylvania Metroliner.
You think the GG1 is an ugly locomotive? Well, everyone is
entitled to their opinion, no matter how silly it appears
to be. Hey, some folks get off on having excrement deposited
on their face, so really saying that a locomotive which won
awards for its design is ugly is not such an extreme thing.
However, perhaps your opinion is tainted by images such as the one
you posted. Try this link:
4927 at IRM
No, my opinion is saying that the GG-1 is ugly, regardless of the image I posted, I seen it before fresh and I still think it's ugly.
Dementia comes early for you it seems.
The GG-1 ugly? The AEM7 and Acela are a couple of breadboxes on wheels compared to the G. 24 cars? A G didn't even break a sweat. Takes 2 AEM7's for 15.
Once upon a time in Washington Union Station the southern railroads would turn 2 12 car Florida trains (one from the Coast line and one from the Seaboard) over to the Pennsy. The Pennsy would cut off the southern diners, add a PRR diner, a couple of Parlor cars and tie a GG-1 on the point. That single G would haul the whole 24 car train to New York at an average of 80 miles per hour. And that was the regular way it was done. BTW, that 24 car train had to be double platformed at every station except Philadlphia (30th St) and Pennsylvania Station.
The Acela & AEM-7 is not a couple of breadboxes on wheels!! The GG-1 is still ugly! GG-1 couldn't even handle 8 Cars!
Kid, those ugly euroboxes suck. Even David Gunn thinks acela is a joke.
Gunn is a ass, He doesn't know a good Train when he sees one. And the Acela's don't suck!
i wouldnt say that... although i like the Acela, i think that Gunn has proven himself VERY strongly in the 80s in NY. He started the repainting of the cars.
though i think that some R 17/21/22s should have been kept in service.
ok, now you're just making stuff up. go read a book.
I ain't making nothing up, I actually think the GG-1 is ugly, now you go read a book.
GG-1 couldn't even handle 8 Cars!
That sounds like someone making stuff up. Specifically, you.
It probab;y couldn't handle 8 Cars.
GG-1 couldn't even handle 8 Cars!
It's quite obvious that you know very little about trains that ran before you were born - we've already seen that you can't be bothered to read information that has been posted in response to questions that you have asked, so I guess that we shouldn't be surprised at your ridiculous statements. As other posters have indicated, the GG-1 was an extremely powerful locomotive which regularly handled trains in excess of 20 cars. The normal consist of the Broadway Limited in the 1940s was 22 cars (16 revenue and 6 head-end) and was hauled at 90-100 mph by a single GG-1 from New York to Harrisburg; each of the "lightweight" cars in its consist weighed approximately 30% more than an Amfleet car of today, and the head-end cars were often "heavyweights". Because of loading factors, I doubt that such a consist could be started by even four AEM-7 units (although once moving they could probably keep it going); it would have to be divided in two.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It can handle 8 Cars, I just said that to insult the GG-1 because other users were talking about the Acela.
Maybe they should put that kind of power into upcoming Amtrak Locomotives (If Amtrak ever makes it).
Well, they're getting better with the new HHP-8 units. But realistically I don't see Amtrak running trains as long as the Pennsy did simply because the demand isn't there, and they'd be better off running two shorter trains on different schedules if the demand did exist. Times have changed since I rode the Broadway on a regular basis (New York - Chicago) in the '50s and '60s. I was travelling with my mother and she wouldn't have considered driving that far, given the relative reliability of automobiles and her unwillingness to drive at night. Now, she doesn't think twice about taking a trip that long (although she still doesn't drive at night), even though she's back doing all the driving herself since my father had to give up his license last year. Automotive technology has come a long way in the last 50 years so driving that far doesn't scare her like it used to. Heck, with her new car ('02 Crown Vic) she has enough gadgets (power seat, adjustable pedals, tilt wheel) that she can see OVER the steering wheel for the first time ever!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They don't make copper wire like they used to. Neither do they make any rolling stock like they used to. Maybe the MTA should buy rolling stock built in 3rd world countrys. $500,000 per car for a third world railroad to build cars is a God send. They will build it like a work of art, though they aren't really technical. Bombadier has nothing to lose by building *hit. They are in contract with MTA (same building) Execs.
Remember that Rail India builds all their own cars.
it seems as if it would take the whole HHP8 fleet to haul those same 22 cars. ¦ )
Probably about 2 or 3 HHP-8's, but not the whole damn fleet of HHP-8.
4, 2 at end, 2 at front. You will tear the couplers if you hook 4 together.
The great thing about the GG-1 is that it was developed without funding from the fed. The GG-1 was developed using American know-how and the design was cleaned up by a french-born designer who has a love for trains (plus he was under contract with the PRR.
In contrast, the latest rolling stock is a modified foreign design. The feds funded the project because the previous adminstration felt a high speed service was needed and needed it now. The only way to cut development time down was to seek foreign techology (and pay royality to a french-owned companny).
We took history in school to learn how American became a great country. Now if a certain person study how the PRR developed the GG-1 during the mist of the Great Depression and how it got a federal loan to string wires over its track to Washington and Harrisburg, then he will learn how important this 12 motor locomotive wonder machine meant to American railroad and trace the history of the Italian word for armpit back to the past.
Remember the past. Honor the future.
What future? The future of "Bombadier Quality". Remember that Bombadier is a plane manufacturer, so why will they build anything that can compete with their primary business of planes.
BullS**T!!!! You are too young to have ever experienced the GG-1.
I saw and rode both behind and on GG-1's. And the 22-car trains were not a figment.
E60s are the real breadboxes, those things are so plain!!!!!!!
The E60's sucked BIG time!
They are fringing coal haulers with gear ratios changed. What do you expect?
Because Amtrak can't find anything for their GG-1s they get the a high tonnage freight hauler. Since when do freights designed for speed or acceleration? Frights are designed to move more, sacrificing performance.
could anyone imagine the GG1 in Phase 4/5?!?!?!?
!!!!!!!
What exactly is that?
Some people say the Mona Lisa is "ugly & doofy"! But it is still a classic work of art -- as is the GG1.
I'd as soon look at boxcabs like New Haven EP-2 or 3, the New York Cnetral T,P, and R types. Nut the GG1 was unique in its looks....they were everywhere and did everything as long as they were in wired territory, walked away with 16 Heavyweight steel coaches often enough, and lasted on and on. And ran lke hell even if they weren't geared fr speeds like the AEM-7. NEED I SAY MORE? lIKE A LOT OF OTHER CLASSIC TREASURES THEY DESERVE ...RESPECT! thank you.
Speaking of GG1's, you can find one camped out right outside of Hoboken Terminal on the far left track outside of the realm of NJT tracks. It's painted in the traditional red with the yellow stripe scheme with "PENNSYLVANIA" on it. (Hopefully it's not gone, I checked and it was there all last summer)
Better yet, go to the Hoboken Festival (annually) in September and see some ancient trains which once roamed the rails yourself! They may not be the most attractive, but they sure are traditional.
How the *uck did you do that?
I don't know how Andee did it, but I had a cab ride that same year... my mother's uncle was retiring and I had the privilege of sharing the cab with him in 4908 as he ran the Afternoon Congressional for the last time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Okay. I keep riding Metro-North at 3-4 times week I should graduate from blowing the horn on bypassed stations (once I got to do that, it makes you weak in the hand) to putting my hand on the controller (tough shot). Normally I hang out on Express NHRR trains departing GCT between 5:00pm to 6:30pm from GCT going to Stamford (family) at the railfan window. I would truly like to thank the conductor who let me once into the rear vestibule (bombadier) on a NHRR danbury from GCT; the assisant conductor that lives in Fresh Medows for giving alot of knowledge on the controls in a M-2; a engineer that was on NHRR, PennCental, Conrail (all the good eqipment went from the NHRR to harrisburg), MNRR who let me blow the horn at bypass stations. and knew alot of operatiions, though not much of technical aspect, really nice.
i believe that was the type i saw.it sure as hell didnt look like any coaches Amtrak uses.
Oh ok so it was definitely one of my Acela Express's.
Acela Express
Acela Regional (HHP-8)
When bored, I enjoy tuning into BMT control on frequency 161.505 (btw there is A LOT that passengers dont hear!).
Every so often, i hear a series of beeps coming over the radio that sounds like morse code. does anyone know what these beeps i'm hearing are for?
thanks.
R40M
IIRC, it's an FCC mandated station ID. I bet there's a morse code decoder for a PC on the internet somewhere - you plug audio into the sound input and it'll decode any beeps. i can't imagine nobody's written one...
I never hear those beeps on the standard Railroad frequencies.
It's the Call Letters for the Railroad Radio Station. FCC requires all station to announce their Call Letters every hour. Be it by voice or morse code
This is true, the FCC also requires non-cable TV stations, FM and AM radio stations have to display or say their call letters and city at the top of every hour.
i got cwget which seems like a good decoder. only problem is i dunno how to set filters and such to get a good decoding. nothing but jibberish so far.
It says DE, which is CW slang for "this is station", followed
by whatever the station ID is for that division.
If it ever calls CQ, we're in trouble.
It's called "ATIS" (Automatic Transmitter Identification System) and is an FCC mandate for fixed/mobile. The Automatic CW ID every ten minutes is a suitable replacement for "this is KWO-456" in between dispatches. Given that NYCTA uses a number of "relays" each one would otherwise require a voice announcement of its call and frequency. ATIS allows a "trunk" call sign plus a serial ID that will pinpoint a particular transmitter. Nice, automated, and stops command from spinning records. :)
>>stops command from spinning records. :)
Yah, desk dispatchers have to wear walkmans now. Can't have those boom boxes blareing.
Geez ... what is the world coming to? I remember when "Dick Ricardo Sugar" baalasted on the platform PA's every now and then. But yeah, don't want them damned TSS's feeling the urge to do news at the top of the hour. :)
Actually the news would be better than them rewiewing a rule from the rulebook.
Today I WAs on A B6-New lots Bound when i got off on E 98 street i looked into Canarise Yard and Saw R-143 #8181-8184 i did not see the other 4-car but #8101-8184 more cars that good don't u think
also the R-142 did not come in as good as the R-143 and R-143 has no Problems
R-142 6666 was taken out of service late last night. The T/O reported that the master controller kept getting stuck in coast. A TSS got on the train, and they brought it to 239.
Speaking of 239, 4 new R-142's are sitting on the delivery track. The inter-car barriers are still wrapped in plastic. I didn't write down the car numbers, but did make note that they were in the 7000 series.
Bad omen, bro ... wave garlic at it, I'll supply the Jesuit. :)
666 is Satan's number.
6666 is just sick, sick, sick, sick.
Garlic and Jesuits not needed,
Another mistake, just like 668, the Neighbor of the Beast.
Mark
6666 is just sick, sick, sick, sick
Well, it's better than 6969.....
ahh, I shouldn't have done that...........
I don't think ANYTHING is better than 6969 :-)
How about 969?
A menage a trois? (sp) Ooh-la-la.
I knew I was going to get a rise out of somebody...
OK, OK, I'll stop now...
>>>OK, OK, I'll stop now... <<
Please don't....ROTFLMAO!
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>OK, OK, I'll stop now... <<
Please don't....ROTFLMAO!
Peace,
ANDEE
I knew I was going to get a rise out of somebody...
Pun intended? :-)
6666 is also a late afternoon NJ Transit train from Dover to New York Penn. Nobody wants to work that train!!
I can't believe we're wasting a thread on this kind of nonsense.
It's evil only if you let it be. If you are self-assured and secure with your religious beliefs, but aware and understanding that some of your neighbors may not believe as you do,you will have no fear of riding car #6666 and no harm will befall you.
I don't have a problem with either number. I was being partially funny.
As to 6666 being sick, sick, sick, sick there is a real story about that. One of our long-time members at BSM went to work at PTC around 1964. Some of the folks in PTC's training department knew of his hobby and actually asigned him that badge, for exactly that reason - they felt anybody who was a streetcar fan was sick, sick, sick, sick. To top it all off, when he was released from training they assigned him to Southern Depot - as a bus driver. He did finally get to streetcars at Woodland, but kept that badge until early 1968, when he quit PTC to run trains on the B&O.
Nah, Satan got a raise. He's a division superintendent now. :)
Well, with a number like that, what do you expect...........
Maybe it's Ozzy Osbourne's Crazy Train...
Mark
All Abooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard ha ha ha ha ha ha
I can hear Flip Wilson/Geraldine right about now.
"The devil made me do it. Wooooooooooo!!"
There's Bombardier for ya...
You devil, you!:-)
Is Redbird (I don't know which model) #8888 on the #5 line still operate? I don't think it should be scrapped because of the sake of the numbers. I got kind of lucky to see one at Penn Sta. a while ago during the #5 GO.
Not sure if 8888 is still running. I think I had 8883 last week, but don't remember seeing 8888 around.
I heard from "A 8 Av. Fulton" that he saw the train two days ago on the 5. Still running true to the end. : )
8888 is still running it was in the Middle 3 weeks ago.
I can see our "Evil PATH car" part of this thread has been deleted. I guess we've carried it on too far.
When 6666 came out it also stalled North of 14 Street of TK 4. It was so bad they needed to get the Bomb. Techs.
The west sidewalk of Church St between Liberty and Vesey is now open to the public. At the southern end, you can look into the cellars of 4 WTC and see the 1/9 reconstruction project. They seem to be encasing the ROW with concrete walls and ceiling.
No change to the N/R Cortlandt St situation. Still signs at the uptown entrances saying that it's uptown only; walk to Rector St for Brooklyn service. But of course the entrances are still barred off. Underneath everything looks in fine shape as long as your eyes don't stray too far west beyond the west platform and underpass.
Making progress. Thank you for posting that heartening news.
THANKS! for the note, AIM!
I believe it's AlM (with a lowercase L), not AIM.
- Lyle Goldman
Scary. I could get the aerial foto of the tunnel to come up. Here it is:
Tunnel on Mapquest
You can see where the trestle over the Raccoon Creek had been torn out (see the pillars that are still in place -- count 'em -- 3), where the tunnel is, and the rail line...
I really want to go out there and see it for real.
AEM7
For those of us who aren't in the know, where is Moonville and what does its tunnel mean for us railfans?
Mark
http://www.forgottenoh.com/moonville.html
AEM7
While returning last night on the L train to Brooklyn at about 5:30PM i was on a new R-143 Car number 8156. The train was held up at Jefferson Street for several minuates for an unknown reason. The train then resumed its run and when the train reached Atlantic Avenue the conductor announced the train will stop at Livornia Ave,E.105th St and then Rockaway Parkway skipping Sutter and New Lots Ave
The train then skipped Sutter It then stopped at New Lots and when it arrived at E.105th St the motorman announced that the train was being held up to await an Manhattan bound train to depart. That was the only train in Rockaway Parkway at the time.
Can any one explain this stupidity to me on why stops were skipped and the train was delayed at E.105th St
Thank You
The dispatcher at ENY Master Tower ordered the train to skip the stations due to a train directly behind it. The ENY Master Tower dispatcher has no control over what goes on at Canarsie terminal, in fact Canarsie is not even on that model board. The priority is trains leaving terminals on time. Perhaps the train was held at E.105 to allow the train leaving Canarsie to cross the switches.
Bill,
So whats the logic
Why make people make a switch when they do not have to
to make up time at one point to lose it at another just does not make sense.
Does anybody at the TA know whats going on
It seems the right does not know what the left is doing
Thank You
You are absolutely correct. You can't believe the stuff I've seen over 22 1/2 years working there and 7 years before that commuting to work in Manhattan. I just laugh the nonsense off. I refuse to get an ulcer over incompetance and supervision not knowing how to run a railroad. It's like when I worked the M and we were late northbound. ENY Master Tower at Myrtle/Bway tells you to take a battery run: Wycoff-Fresh Pond-Met. Skipping Seneca & Forest is a joke since you have very slow timers and you practically have to stop anyway. Perhaps you have to wait outside Met anyway for another train to leave. But you do as you're told. No sense getting aggrevated over it. All the crews can do is follow rules, regulations and orders. I've seen many people enter the TA/and or supervisory roles and vow to change "everything" in the operational sense. Nobody has succeeded yet! The place is just too big!
The 143 is almost alway late on that line they may not have expected it to get there so fast. In fact thhey are not supposed to put 2 143s next to each other in the schedule because it kills the line.
Why would it kill the line?
Peace,
ANDEE
For the most part they are late (not that anything is ever late) and do not make the schedule. As that train kicks ass on inclines I will leave you to the obvious reasons why they tend to be tardy.
Ok, I am placing you in a situation, there are several choices to choose from in each scenario. Here we go, there is no right answer, just here to see what each person would do.
Scenario 1. You are coming home from a trip in Brooklyn, you're on a Manhattan Bound 5 train, you're in the front of a redbird, and as you're entering Braodway-Nassau, you noticed that your train has not changed speeds, or slowled down, and is still going 35 miles per hour, you look through the crack in the door, and see the driver is out cold. The train is about to hit the sharp curve just past the station...What would you do?
a) Bust open the door, and take control and attempt to slow the train?
b) pull the emergency cord?
c) pray for the tripper to trip the train
d) kiss you butt goodbye
Scenario 2. You're the conductor on the train that later crashes at Union Square, before it, your train goes 5 cars over the platform at Mosholu Parkway, you give the driver a warning, saying that if you do it 1 more time, you'll take the train out of service. At Fordham Road, the train goes 2 cars over the platform, what would you do?
a) take the train out of service
b) give a 2nd strike
c) do nothing
d) contact the command center of the incident
Scenario 3. You're a train driver, and you're doing the CPW express run, midway during the run you loose all control of your breaks, and the emergency breaks dont work, how would you respond?
a) hope for an incline to slow the train
b) hope for a tripper to stop the train
c) contract command center to clear all track ahead, and tell all passengers to move to the back of the train
d) put on a blinfold, light a cigar and say goodbye
1-A
2-A
3-A and B
Peace,
ANDEE
OOPS- I meant to say B for no. 1
Peace,
ANDEE
1) B
2) D
3) C
I would say on #2...both B AND D.
1) A, but I'd explain to passengers what I'm doing
2) D (if the result is A), if not, then A
3) C
"I'd explain to passengers what I'm doing"
How? you only have moments to react
1) A, but I'd explain to passengers what I'm doing
Right. You can explain AFTERWARDS after you think in a split-second how to open the door (if locked) and have it slowed down. I think you'd be better off not telling as many people as possible so that people don't feel impressive so as to you gaining pride in yourself. Besides, pulling the emergency brake will render the same effect, since you still need to report the incident to the officials anyway.
Leave the conductor to open the doors and take care of the rest.
Where did you get training to operate on the NYCT?
What would you rather have happen, have the train stopped in a tunnel with a knocked out motorman, or have the train stopped in a station where EMS can just run down stairs and make an attempt (hopefully successful) to save this guy. On the half cab doors most of the time you can just kick it really hard and it'll open. I think most railfans know how to operate a train, I for one, do know how. I've been to the training facility (simulator site) 2 times.
When you realize that the motorman is out cold while entering the station at 35mph, it won't hurt to pull the Emergency Brake.
It wouldn't make a difference. The instant the train passes a red signal (which will happen eventually, if not due to a grade timer then due to an occupied block), the stop arm will, in effect, pull the emergency brake.
When you realize that the motorman is out cold while entering the station at 35mph, it won't hurt to pull the Emergency Brake. Leave the conductor and the authorities for the rest.
I've been operating for almost 3 years and still have trouble with the simulator. Just because you can play a video game does not mean you can handle reality.
True, both the person that brought me down to the site and the superintendent told me that you can't get a real feel for it just by the sim. They've been constructing (and I think the equipment is in) and testing the new R142 cab, using CGI graphics and motion. Mmmmm, delicious.
I can operate a car, know the signals and stuff. But how do you charge the brakes?
first situation i would control and operate it either by stopping at fulton or bringing it to Brooklyn bridge and buzzing conductor not to close down when he opens up. second situation im a conductor and he does that a second time? OUT OF SERVICE and report him! cause if something happens they will hang both of u. As for Motorman on CPW? attempt handbrakes. they fail? attempt to get passengers off train somehow, but basically its CHOOOWWW AS I TAKE BRAKE HANDLE AND IM OUT THAT CAB!!!!
cause u know Motorman get it first
If you aren't TA personnel, you shouldn't touch the controls, even if you know how to work them. Pull the emergency brake, like passengers are supposed to do.
Arrest me for all I care, all I know is I would save a trainful of lives...or at least bring them to a closer point of safety (such as a station).
While you might have certain sanctions, they would probably be lessened due to the number of lives/injuries averted and you would not be regarded in a negative way.
Being arrested is the least of your problems, the lawsuits are what you will have to worry about.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you are looking at a lifesaver, except my client was traumatized and I demand money. If this lifesaver never came into play there would be no lawsuit because my client would be dead."
I think the jury would be on my side if they have brains.
What are you getting at?!
You would still pay lots of $$$ in legal fees
hey NEWS FLASH! FULTON DOESNT HAVE SUPERVISION! SO WOULD U RATHER WAIT 45 MINUTES OR BE ABLE TO GET OFF? I WOULD BE THE PASSENGERS ONLY HOPE! EVEN CONDUCTORS CANT RUN TRAINS! AND AS FOR UR TA PERSONNEL NONSENSE, I WILL BE WORKIN FOR METRO NORTH SOON!
UHHH..does the word hypothetical mean anything to you.
Peace,
ANDEE
"when foamers go bad" on FOX
"Foamers gone wild in NYC" order the video now
>>>"Foamers gone wild in NYC" order the video now <<<
BUT WAIT! If you order within the next 20 minutes we will include, at no charge, a foamer drool guard...ABSOLUTELY FREE.
lol.
Peace,
ANDEE
But that's not all!! Call within the next 10 minutes and we'll thrown in a genuine Redbird storm door complete with railfan window.
I guarantee you that if you weren't a TA employee and you did that, they would throw the book at you nowadays with all the hijacking fears out there. not to mention the potential for hundreds of lawsuits. If one person gets hurt on the train because they fell or whatever....due to bad braking....its your ass they take to court.
well i will say it again, i KNOW how to operate a train anyways and i know how air brakes work. so i wont make bad braking, being that i have been taught.
But you still aren't legally authorized to run the train unless you are a T/O and work for the MTA....you will get in a hell of a lot of legal fees
Yeah sure, I know how to operate a train too, but I would still ONLY pull the emergency cord.
Peace,
ANDEE
ah but ur prolly right. this is a dream situation so i prolly would just apply emergency brakes. besides i am not only taking a Trackworker exam for NYCT, i am about to get a job with the Metro North Railroad. so i dont wanna ruin my opportunities cause eventually i will get authorization to move a train altho i already know how to. even when we went on the Redbird fan trip, when the train went up the A line, i was the one who warned the Motorman about 168ths S curve. so i can move a train, i just wont cause im not about to be another keron thomas. besides since i might get in with Metro North Railroad very soon, it wont be long before i will get authorization to move trains in passenger service as i will intend to become a Engineer.
>>> even when we went on the Redbird fan trip, when the train went up the A line, i was the one who warned the Motorman about 168ths S curve. <<<
I'll bet the TA never followed up with a commendation for saving that whole trainload of rail fans from death and dismemberment. :-)
Tom
Just like an off-duty cop shouldn't foil a robbery attempt? You should do what's best for the situation. Get the train moving into a station and then dump. You "IC" and communicate with the C/R. Don't let the passengers know what's going on, they'll go crazy and pull the cord on you if they THINK you don't know what's going on and you gotta find the cord and reset it and get beat up by them while you're at it. No need to move the train fast, just get it moving and I GUESS try to stop it at the 10 car or 8 car marker and dump it and set handbrakes to be redundant. When the officials get there, let them know what you did.
Cops are different, because they have that job. Just because you know how to operate a train doesn't give you the authority to run one. Cops are allowed to foil a robbery attempt, provided that they aren't out of jurisdiction. I think the passengers would notice if a rider busted down the door of the cab, and chances are they wouldn't just sit there without reacting to it.
and if the brake cylinder has no air? You can relese all the air in the brake line and the brakes won't work (you use air pressure to lift the brakes off the wheel)?
AND ANOTHER THING, PULLING EMERGENCY BRAKES LIMITS UR OPTIONS! NOT TO MENTION WILL DELAY EVERY TRAIN NEARBY. trains are meant to keep moving! thats why its called RAPID TRANSIT
Well, you can pull the emergency brakes when you coast closer to a station....you dont just have to stop in the middle of the tunnel.
Pull the cord. Get the poor T/O some help. Forget the service. When does it become non-important? Do we only have one line? If you were sick, would you want the train to "keep moving!"?
Not in New York it isn't. Now it's Leisurely Transit.
Actually #3 happened to me but approaching a river tube. I posted a bit of that adventure here.
You forgot applying handbrakes and a few other things.
1) Assuming that a "dead man's handle" does not trip the train for me, I would choose B, and then administer first aid/CPR to the operator as needed, contacting command center.
NOTE: As everyone knows, one cannot kiss one's own butt (can't reach). Since this is multiple choice, why not offer choice E, where one's significant other gets to do it for you?) :0)
2) A
3) C (because choices A and B will happen anyway).
(or choice E from #1 above) :0)
I don't get it. . .
1) Wouldn't the grade timers have stopped your train by this point or will stop it soon enough?
2) D, which may lead to A
3) A, B, and C, but I'm not sure: I would think before any danger comes, the trip arms will have stopped you.
#1 - Running through Fulton St northbound at 35 mph will put the train into emergency at somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 way into the station. As a result, the train will be stopped before entering the curve. When the C/R gets no response from the T/O as to what happened, Control will be notified and the C/R will investigate.
#2 - Call Command and tell them you are taking the train out of service. Remember, the C/R job (as well as his butt) is on the line here.
#3 - Place the train into the Full service position, thereby using the dynamic braking. As train is slowing, apply handbrakes at your position, have C/R apply both sets at his, breathe, call Command.
I'm amazed that someone who doesn't have any train experience gets 10+ replies, and you, who actually move trains and know what to do, get none.
I am more surpirsed that someone who works for the system would ask questions that would give wood to all these guys. I mean that is the fantasy and of course I would not want service interuptted so i would take the train up to Dyre Ave and since there was no extra board person I'd have to take the rest of the job for the benefit of the service.
You get used to it after a while. It's the same thing the passengers do when asking for directions.
what is "full service"?
I'd wake up in a cold sweat.:-)
1. B
2. D
3. B
As for Scenario 3, I would have been more worried if it were a train of R-10s. If you coast uphill through 110th St., the train would probably slow down quite a bit.
AHHH, you always wake up in a cold sweat. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That didn't happen right after my dream of a runaway train of R-10s roaring down a mountainside at 100 mph.:-)
Damn, I feel sorry for the T/O on that run, but I gotta give the swtich man credit for getting a NYC Subway Car out to the moutains, lol.
It was more like a downhill ski run.
(1) If I was on a 5 train entering Broadway-Nassau, I would be pretty scared because the 5 doesn't run on that IND line - I think you meant Fulton Street.
(2) Take the train out of service. No need for another Malbone Street Wreck.
(3) b and c
Scenario 2. You're the conductor on the train that later crashes at Union Square, before it, your train goes 5 cars over the platform at Mosholu Parkway, you give the driver a warning, saying that if you do it 1 more time, you'll take the train out of service. At Fordham Road, the train goes 2 cars over the platform, what would you do?
a) take the train out of service
b) give a 2nd strike
c) do nothing
d) contact the command center of the incident
The conductor's inaction before the Union Square wreck was not entirely his fault. He knew there was something very wrong with the way the train was being operated, but did not know whether he would be subject to disciplinary action if he took the train out of service. It's really sort of hard to blame him under those circumstances
I believe the rules have been changed as a result of this incident, and now a conductor can take a train out of service without facing disciplinary action, if he or she believes it's being operated in an unsafe manner.
>>>The conductor's inaction before the Union Square wreck was not entirely his fault.<<<
I'm sorry, I MUST disagree with that statement. I believe that the conductor should have taken some action, damn the rules, a few lives would have been saved.
I will never forget them interviewing the conductor on TV, they had subtitles AND HE WAS SPEAKING ENGLISH. I still have the tape.
Peace,
ANDEE
The conductor's inaction before the Union Square wreck was not entirely his fault.
I'm sorry, I MUST disagree with that statement. I believe that the conductor should have taken some action, damn the rules, a few lives would have been saved.
I don't know. It's very easy to say in retrospect that the conductor should have taken action no matter what. But I can understand that he was reluctant to risk what was probably the best job he'd ever had, especially at a time (1991) when jobs of any sort were very hard to get. As I understand it, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, under the rules then in effect the conductor indeed could have lost his job had he stopped the train and an investigation showed that the T/O was not impaired.
I'd like to say that I would have been a hero and stopped the train had I been in the conductor's situation. Except then I'd probably be lying.
It is very hard for most people to pull the cord on their partner.
Who if they are wrong they will have to work with for the rest of the pick.
If they covered for you once or twice it gets harder too.
I am AMAZED by the amount of time they made up on that trip.
You have an interesting point, Peter.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> I believe that the conductor should have taken some action, damn the rules, a few lives would have been saved. <<<
Isn't 20/20 hindsight wonderful. Because you know the outcome from taking no action, you can say with assurance that the C/R should have taken action. I can't help but think of the movie, "The Caine Mutiny Court Martial". If the C/R had taken action so there was no accident, would he have been looked at as a hero??; or just an insubordinate interfering C/R who deserved to be fired?
Tom
Honestly, A, D, and B
>>Scenario 1. You are coming home from a trip in Brooklyn, you're on a Manhattan Bound 5 train, you're in the front of a redbird, and as you're entering Braodway-Nassau, you noticed that your train has not changed speeds, or slowled down, and is still going 35 miles per hour, you look through the crack in the door, and see the driver is out cold. The train is about to hit the sharp curve just past the station...What would you do?<<
b) pull the emergency cord?
>>Scenario 2. You're the conductor on the train that later crashes at Union Square, before it, your train goes 5 cars over the platform at Mosholu Parkway, you give the driver a warning, saying that if you do it 1 more time, you'll take the train out of service. At Fordham Road, the train goes 2 cars over the platform, what would you do?<<
a) take the train out of service
>>Scenario 3. You're a train driver, and you're doing the CPW express run, midway during the run you loose all control of your breaks, and the emergency breaks dont work, how would you respond?<<
c) contract command center to clear all track ahead, and tell all passengers to move to the back of the train
or
d) put on a blinfold, light a cigar and say goodbye
what if this happened to a r-142 with a LOCKED BLOCKED OFF TRANSVERSE CAB ??? ( no access no view no railfan window ) !!!!!!!!!!!!
...@..how could you even SEE WHAT IN DA'HELL IS GOING ON HERE ???
especially on #1 # 2 !!!
#3 i dont know !! MAN THEY SHOULD HAVE FIXED THOSE R-142 BRAKES !!
wooooooooooooooo
Spare us your one-dimensional rantings....PLEASE!
Peace,
ANDEE
no! spare your self first sweetie !!
next time "U" ""R"" in los angeles chill out dude & ride one of these!
LOL !! LOL !! LOL !!!! LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You should be able to kick-in a cab door. What if the lock is broken? What if you don't have the time to find the key? What if you are a paramedic/policeman responding to a OPTO train? What if you have a paramedic/policeman responding to a a sick T/O, a few more seconds the guy will be dead from heartattack, you don't have time to goto conductor for keys.
Scenario 1:
Pull the emergency cord. If the T/O is out cold or otherwise incapacitated, then the train realistically is a runaway train.
Scenario 2:
If I were a C/R on a train that overran a station by 5 cars, I would have been on the radio to Control Center immediately. C/R's give second chances by overrunning a station by a door panel or 1/2 a car, not 1/2 a train.
Scenario 3:
In that case, I would place the brake handle into emergency since that's what the TA would prefer and would immediately call Control center of the situation. Since you said all brakes, then it's assumed that Dynamic Braking would be gone as well.
Then, I would apply every handbrake as tight as I possibly could, with the C/R's assistance of course. I would not move any passengers back unless a collision was imminent.
If the handbrakes didn't work, then if I was going uptown, an incline could probably stop the train. Downtown? I'd pull out the blindfold.
1]A
2]D
3]C
R142MAN
AMTRAK
1. B)in addition to pulling the emergency cord, get on the radio and notify C/R and control center for assistance pronto!
2. D)Definately notify command center and refuse to close doors at the stop.
3. C)Contact command immediately, so they can set signals to red to stop the train
"C)Contact command immediately, so they can set signals to red to stop the train "
That wont work! There are no brakes, so there is no BIE. Set the signals to GREEN to keep other traffic out of your way. Notify the train ahead of you to get his ass moving out of your way.
Dyanamic and Air brakes are different systems, if you have power, you have dynamic, and that will SLOW the train, but not stop it, once slowed as much as it will, start seting hand brakes.
Perhaps you could move the reverser to reverse, and use POWER to bring the train to a stop.
Elias
Reverser to reverse, and power...didn't you watch money train? ;-)
"...didn't you watch money train? ;-)"
NOPE, is that a movie or a tv show or something.
we don't do those kinds of things out here.
What did it do? Blow up the train?
Have you ever tried to turn a motor with the leads shorted together.
Tough, ain't it.
Elias
Movie, I forgot the exact plot for this scene. But the two guys are on the money train and want to get off I think but they let the brakes bleed and they have no more air, so they keep on rear ending a redbird and they end up putting a stick from the reverser handle on the money train pointed at the redbird, so the next time they bump, it throws it into reverse and the two guys into the redbird I think. Well anyways, it bumps, and the wheels come to a DEAD halt on the money train but the train doesnt and sparks fly and it ends up derailing and barreling down the tunnel like a log knocking down support beams like bowling pins. Cool movie, but so many little technical errors :-)
If you haven't seen The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3 (the 1:23 Pelham train), you HAVE to see it, good action movie :-)
Have fun!
You can tell which scenes in Money Train were filmed on the actual subway and which ones were done on the subway set. On the actual subway, the cars are R-62/62As. On the movie set, they used Redbird R-30s. 33rd St. is the real thing. Wall St. is Union Square in disguise. Get this: they actually didn't use Hoyt-Schermerhorn for once!
That may work but you are missing a few steps.
Money train? Heh. Yeah, that's a good substitute for school car. :)
Hey 76 St exists becasue it is on the internet.
Show me some hard evidence and I'll believe it. Otherwise, it's nothing more than tabloid fodder.
Heh. I'm sure 76 St exists because it was DUG ... but as to what's actually under the street probably doesn't amount to much more than the lower level of the 63 St tube.
"Heh. I'm sure 76 St exists because "....
Well.... we all *know* 76th Street exists...
What we want to know is what is UNDER THE STREET : )
Elias
Hey 76 St exists because it is on the internet.
B, A, C. That'd be my answers.
1) Timer in the middle of Fulton will get you.
2) 5 cars? No second chance.
3) Try to stay calm first. Move the brake valve/master controller back and forth. No change, keep a full service and check my circuit breakers. No change, place into emergency. Still no change, then go to the handbrake. Did you get this from school car?
Nothing to all
In New York, there are no drivers on the subway. We have train operators.
We use brakes not breaks
But as you can see with all of the replies, we all got the point..
Today I went to 1 Avenue & 39 Street in Brooklyn & there was NYCHRR scrapyard & I saw R21#9306(one side was clean the other graffitied) & 2 R21/22 worktrain caught in graffiti. If anybody remembers weeks ago I posted something about wanting to go there & take pictures of the scrap trains, but some say that you can't because their are fences around, but want to guess something the gate fence was opened but to bad a didn't had my camera & there were MTA workers in the very far back of the yard fixing the tracks & there was nobody @ the security guards booth I was daring to go in in but I didn't felt like going also because there was a patti-wagon police van there across the yard next to Costco. I am probably willing to go back there tommorrow if the gates are open & no security guards I will go inside & photograph the wreck trains.
PS What happens if you get caught could they throw you out only or get arrested? Anybody please
you're likely to be told to leave, so long as your just photographing and don't go getting too close to the cars, climbing in them, walking around o on the tracks... it'd have to be one hard ass cop to arrest or fine you when you have no intent on being a bother to anyone and just getting photos...
The gates would not be open if no one is around, so I doubt if you'd be able to go inside.
Apparently as a cost saving measure, they are no longer hiring guards for the SBK yard, merely padlocking the front and rear gates.
If you do go back and find the gates open and NYCT personnel around the yard, please ASK them before you enter. Chances are they won't have a problem with you taking pictures of the cars. Remember, courtesy goes a long way.
For the most part, I like what the TA has done in terms of renovating stations. Most places, the tiles resemble those that they have replaced.
The exceptions I have found are at Broad St and Fulton St on the Nassau St. line and 8th Ave on the Canarsie line.
In my earlier years, I would often use these stations. they used to have IND color band tiles on the walls (why I'm not quite sure, I would think these stations pre-dated the IND) .
Anyway, the renovations have covered up the IND tiles with some kind of mosaic tiles, which seem odd and a little sad to me, since I really don't recognize those stations any more.
:(
Does anyone know f there was an original tile design for Fulton and Broad St (according to the site, they opened in 1913, way before the IND)
Were they tiled when they opened
They were opened in 1931. Since the city built it, and it was the depression, they went the cheap IND tile route.
Interesting,
According to the link below, the Nassau st line opened between the Montague Tunnel and Chambers St. in 1913.
However, a look at the map dated 1924 suggests it was not open at that time.
Is the site wrong or is there any other explanation?
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/bmttime.html
I suspect that the link has a typo.
:-) Andrew
I agree. I think both Fulton and Broad were opened in 1931 not 1913. A little dyslexia there?
No, that timeline is incorrect. Maybe a transposition - 1913 = 1931 ?
The City wanted to deny the BMT what it could, stalling the 14th St.-Eastern Line and Nassat St. Lines. Nassau St. finally opened when Jimmy Walker was mayor.
There are other incorrect dates in that timeline, which I believe was picked up whole from another source.
The Nassau Loop, i.e., the connection of Chambers St to the Montague tunnel came late, mostly because of politics. It should have been done early during Hylan's tenure.
As for the tiling, it simply followed the then-current City notions on how a subway station was to be done. We have examples from the 50s and 60s (the 49th BMT orange bricks particularly come to mind). The Hoyt St redo, the Archer Av stations, etc, are more recent examples.
I'm all for restoration where practical. But not every station needs to be put back to the way it was when it opened. We want new design too. The Cortlandt IRT should be 21st century in design (and likely, of a memorial nature), tho' quotes to IRT station design are welcome.
At its best, the IND is excellent International/Bauhaus style. Much of it is badly in need of being redone, but it's clean, simple, bright, unfussy.
We want variety in our stations.
Nassau St BMT service began between Chambers St and the Montague St Tunnel on May 30, 1931.
My 1931 Map is the first one on which the Nassau Loop service appears - here is a copy of the service guide:
1931 BMT Service Guide
BMT-Lines.COM
The last two stations on the Nassau/Centre Street line were tiled in IND fashion, due in part to vicinity construction of the Nassau IND.
The same can be said about the BMT's Canarsie Line. The 8th Avenue station was finished in IND-style, because the 8th Avenue Line and the Canarsie line (extension to 8th Avenue) was being built at the same time.
In fact, when the TA changed the tiles at 8th Avenue BMT, Fulton BMT and Broad BMT and went to a different design, the ORIGINAL aspects of the station were lost. If the TA wanted to maintain the ORIGINAL feel for the station, it would have re-done the tiling in the manner and form when first laid.
Last I checked, the L train origionally terminated @ 6th Ave. It was extended to 8th Ave in conjuction with the construction of the A/C/E. Which is why it had IND tile. I LOVE the fact that they renovated it to match the BMT tile on the rest of the line.
I like the renovations at Fulton, Broad and 8th Ave. It is actually more fitting to the two lines than the original tiles! I think they did a wonderful job on all three stations.
I do however like IND station design also in their own way, but there are plenty of them to enjoy. The variety is what makes the subway interesting.
I hate all tile replacements. The new tile doesn't have that old Ivory color with the microcracks. The grout looks better when aged and a little gray. The tile that was installed on 28St Lex it the best tile in the system because it is completely smooth, the edges don't go down to the grout. When you look at a newly tiled station it looks like looking at the sun because it is so bright. I wish the installed aged (artificially) tile to be indistinguishable from old tile.
In my past life I worked for one of the largest domestic manufacturers of ceramic tile. So I look at tile in a different light, so to speak.
The process of making tile has improved over the years. The spidercrack you speak of are really a defect in the manufacturing process. The glazed portion, just on the surface of the tile, is hard as glass, and will crack like glass also. The tile you cite used the old process of the glazing the surface which did not reacting well with the body of the tile. Today's processes use materials in the body that enabled the glazing process to harmonize - thus not spiderweb cracks.
Your comment about the grout is also correct. Grout has stages of life, ages well, and looks better as years go by. Unless it is not maintained correctly, the tile and grout installation will last a very long time.
Keep in mind that installations done many years ago were done by craftsmen, usually Italian, who spent the time it takes to get a near perfect installation. Today, setting as many square feet as possible in a day is the name of the game.
While I agree with you that I like the older tile installations better, the newer tiles do 'brighten' up the image of the stations.
Jim K.
Chicago
I particularly liked the way Gunn fended off the proposal to sell in this post:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:54:16 -0000
From: ckpcpqq
To: IllianaRR@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [IllianaRR] Amtrak yet again
Amtrak's new president, David Gunn, has said Amtrak needs $205 million by late July to stay in business, and he is trying new tack. Instead of turning to Congress for the money, Gunn is currently trying to arrange a bank loan. Why would a bank loan him the money given Amtrak's condition? Because, says Gunn, Amtrak can virtually guarantee the loan will be paid back from the next fiscal year's appropriation. The Bush Administration said several months ago it would propose something like $550 million for Amtrak--way below what it needs but virtually guaranteed to get through Congress. Of course if the $205 million is removed from the $550 million subsidy, that leaves only $345 million for Amtrak to work with next year--which would require them to shut down some time in 2003. So Gunn is clearly hoping that Congress and the Bush people will go along with a much larger appropriation.
At last report, Gunn was having trouble getting the loan, despite the guaranteed payback. So he may have to go to Congress for the $205 million after all. As I said earlier, Congress seems willing to go along with it. But the new wrinkle is that the Bush Administration may not. Some of the Bushies now seem to favor breaking up Amtrak and selling off the parts to private operators (that's what the Amtrak "Reform" Council proposed). Stay tuned.
I like this guy Gunn. He makes no bones about Amtrak ever reaching self-sufficiency and says that if a first rate passenger rail system is in the national interest, Amtrak has to receive an appropriation of about $1.2 billion for the next fiscal year. He was interviewed on the Lehrer News Hour last week, and when Jim Lehrer brought up the proposal to sell off parts to private entrepreneurs, he smiled and leaned over to Lehrer saying, "Do you wanna buy it? I can give you a very good price." Lehrer laughed nervously and indicated that he got Gunn's point.
Bill Gustason
DLG took a constipated TA in the early and mid 1980's and turned it around, when no one said it could be done. Extra and excess were abolished....the same he wishes to do with Amtrak. Even I myself had no idea the number of Vice Presidents was over 70!
This is one of the few countries NOT to support a state-run rail system. Shame, for if it WERE funded properly, a lot of cars could be taken off the roads and highways. Look at the fuel savings. How many people find it a pleasure to drive to Florida or cross country? I did the Florida trip 12 times, and the last time in 1997, I swore to NEVER do it again. Auto Train, Cross Country Lines, NE Corridor...these are imperative to Amtrak, and to sell off sections isn't in the best of interests.
I've been saying this for years: Increase auto taxes, fuel, tolls, etc. Funnel the money to Amtrak and to improving rail/freight systems. Fuel costs in Britian are $3.75/gal (US $). Italy? $4.20. Germany? $4.05. But you know what? ALL of these countries have an excellent run rail system.
>>>DLG took a constipated TA in the early and mid 1980's and turned it around.<<<
He may have turned it around, but it is still constipated. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, at least NOW the TA knows when to take a laxative. =)
I like the title to this thread myself.:-)
It's almost worth a rim shot all by itself.
"This is one of the few countries NOT to support a state-run rail system."
Gee, can *that* be right????
Why! I heard on the Rush Limbaugh Program just this afternoon that the US and CUBA were the only countries in this hemishpere with government subsidized rail!
: ) Elias
Great posting! Thank you.
I would like to know is how much is left of the old Hudson Terminal Station today, are both the platforms & staircases leading down to where the PATH trains used to terminate still exist & is the upstairs where the turnstiles were also still exist.
In addition, where can I find pictures of what the old Hudson Terminal Station looked like before it closed in 1971.
RIGHT HERE if you haven't seen it already.
Peace,
ANDEE
Where he WON'T find what he's looking for, except for a picture of South Hudson Terminal (without north) with all the surrounding buildings already ripped out.
Oh gawd....get a freakin' stress ball willya?
Peace,
ANDEE
You can visit this link for a picture of the old Hudson terminal (among other old things).
As for any remnants of the old stations, there may have been some before the massacre, but now the entire subterranean area has been gutted, so any such evidence of a station is long gone.
As for any remnants of the old stations, there may have been some before the massacre, but now the entire subterranean area has been gutted, so any such evidence of a station is long gone.
Incorrect. The old station area was not underneath the WTC and as such was not affected by the attack and cleanup. In fact, if you look at the excavation, you can see the tunnel section that led to the old station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
According to Joe Brennan's Abandoned Station site, the stations south of Chambers on the BMT Nassau line were opened in 1931, not 1913. As Joe states:
"The Nassau St subway, running south from Chambers St, was opened in May 1931. The outer tracks at Chambers St were connected to the new route while the inner tracks merged into a new tail track that ended a trainlength away."
The first regular interval trains on the Nassau Street Loop were the 1157am Culver running south from Chambers Street and the 1155 Jamaica running north from Broad Street.
Saturday, May 30th, 1931.
And YOU were there....8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Are you referring to the TV show, or my ancient bones? :-)
both....
Peace,
ANDEE
the inner tracks merged into a new tail track that ended a trainlength away
And a short trainlength that was -- could only accommodate 6 BMT Standards (approx. 400 ft.).
-- Ed Sachs
What was the origional plan for the end of the 2 train @ Flatbush and Nostrand? I can't beleive that they would plan and build a stub end with side platforms. Was this line supposed to continue south? To where?
Down Nostrand Avenue, where else?
In the 1960s there was a plan to turn the line east onto the LIRR ROW, then down Flatbush Avenue to Avenue U.
yes
that would have been nice.
It was supposeed to continue along NOSTRAND to Neptune Avenue or some such place.
The biggest obstacle at that time was water. There was too much ground water to build a subway any further out, it would have had to bee elevated.
I don't think that even with today's technology that a subway would be feasable out there, though an elevated would be.
Elias
i think at some point in the future they should extend that subway to Kings Plaza cause as it stands now the only way to get there is by bus.so a subway line to Kings Plaza would REALLY be something to enjoy.if the 2 or 5 routes are too long already then put those extra signs that are on the R62A's and have maybe the 10,12 or 13 trains go there.now THAT would be super cool.and speaking of extra signs.yesterday on the 7 i was on an R62A with the signs as a 7 local,but leaving Times SQ it was gonna be an express so when the T/O
was gonna change the rollsign in the front,i went to look and he turned it the wrong way before he got the right sign.when he turned it the wrong way the first thing that showed was a 12 sign with a green bullet.im telling ya,those signs should get used,im dying to see one of them get used.everytime a new bus or new subway line comes in i get really excited and just go nuts wanting to go ride it,which of course i did the first day the V train started.so bet as hell when the B40 and B78 buses get merged to be the B47,im gonna ride it the first day.and also i think that the 6 and 7 expresses should be renamed to another number like 11 for the 7EXP. 1 woman asked on that very train i was in yesterday if it was local or not,obviously didnt even bother to look at the sign before she got on.but anyway,i support a subway extention to Kings Plaza,i hope it gets done in this lifetime though,id like to live long enough to see it.
"i think at some point in the future they should extend that subway to Kings Plaza "
Extending lines that are azlready stuffed to capacity will not cut it. If you need more service (and we do) then you need to build all new lines, crossings and trunks.
And it just so happens that I have a plan: 23rd Street Subway. which will serve these areas.
Elias
really
Extending the 2/5 lines to Kings Plaza would be a tough task. First off, it is configured running beneath Nostrand Avenue. The line have to be made to (1) turn abruptly onto Flatbush Ave. and (2) somehow avoid the LIRR Bay Ridge trackage, which at this point would be difficult w/o elevating the IRT crossing...
food for thought.
There was a recent plan, as recent as 2000, to extend the tracks beyond the current terminal into the Bay Ridge cut as a turning area to improve TPH on the line.
--Mark
Yes, I'm aware of that. But that would be a wide-arching turn from Nostrand onto the Bay Ridge ROW. I've even read that the idea was to continue trackage all the way to Linden Shops in East New York, thereby linking the New Lots Line to the Flatbush Branch while avoiding revenue trackage (i.e, making it easier to exchange equipment between 3/4 and 2/5 lines).
A subway is plenty feasible. They build tunnels underwater all the time, do they not? The Chunnel even LEAKS and it is designed to do so.
The problem with such an endeavour however would be the cost.
I can't believe I didn't notice this: Nostrand Avenue never hits Neptune Avenue, Neptune becomes Emmons Avenue at East 14th.
Yeah? Well I was guessing at the Name... maybe I ought to have pulled out my map....
LOL
The original plan was to extend the Nostrand Avenue Line to Avenue W
There was never a plan to route the line to Utica Ave via the LIRR
There was a proposal to extend the IRT down Utica Ave to Flatbush Ave/Ave U and another proposal to extend and reroute the Canarsie Line via the Bay Ridge LIRR line from New Lots Avenue to McDonald Ave
All 3 proposals were killed due to lack of money
Thank You
"Another proposal to extend and reroute the Canarsie Line via the Bay Ridge LIRR line from New Lots Avenue to McDonald Ave"
That would have been very nice. A Trans-Brooklyn line that would link all the other Brooklyn lines together.
-Alex V.
Did anybody ride that train of Birds working the 6 yesterday? When was the last time anyone saw that? And will it ever happen again?
It happens every day. There have been a number of recent posts about this phenomenon. I rode it yesterday -- from Astor to Hunts Point and then from Whitlock to 125th, with photos at Astor, Parkchester, and Whitlock.
I don't know the exact times, but it seems the rustbird is a put-in from the 5 and happens 1X a day.
Peace,
ANDEE
its happens every day and its from the #5 line each time
I think this redbird comes from E.180 early in the morning, and then runs local as a 6 in Manhattan. I don't know what crew has it in the morning, but for the afternoon crew, it's the 323 job that takes it to E.180.
So if you want to catch this train, it leaves 177 at 7:27pm, arrives at Brooklyn Bridge at 8:14pm, then leaves Bowling Green at 8:37pm as a 5, and gets to E.180 at 9:30 for a layup. When arriving at Brooklyn Bridge, the train enters the downtown express track, the conductor announces, "last stop", then proceeds to Bowling Green to become a 5.
That jives with my experience last week.
And if my experience last week was any indication, nobody checks the train for lingering passengers at Brooklyn Bridge. So if anyone wants a ride on a Redbird through the South Ferry inner loop, go for it.
Is it always Redbirds or is it sometimes R-142's?
I'm still trying to figure out when this whole thing started and why nobody noticed it until two weeks ago. It isn't the former R-62A 5 train, because that ran as a 5, not a 6, during the afternoon rush
So this train leaves BB at 16:12 for Parkchester?
Approximately. I caught it around 16:20 two days ago.
<>
It is NEVER an R-142. The dispatcher at Parkchester has always been responsible for making sure this train was an R-62. When I worked the job, the C/R came up to me and explained the job, and told me that we always get an R-62 for the last trip. I guess for reasons I'll never know, they now run the redbird in it's place. I'll snoop around to see what I can find out.
What's confusing me is that there are no R-62A's assigned to the 5 and there are no Redbirds assigned to the 6. That means that this train's assignment has changed: it used to be a train assigned to the 6 and now it's a train assigned to the 5. Why the change? (Not that I'm complaining -- it's nice to see a Redbird on the 6 once in a while.)
Why is there none of this train swapping on the West Side? I'd love to see an occasional Redbird on the 1 or 3; the R-62A's are nice enough but they're all those two lines have had for 15 years.
i agree with you 100%
I am not sure why any of this done. My only guess is that there is absolutely no room to store so many trains on the 6 line. Westchester Yard is full, and it's hard to use M track for storage, as it must be kept empty at all times for work trains leaving and then returning to Westchester Yard. The 5 line shows an incredible amount of flexibility. You have 5 trains coming out of 180, 239, and New Lots.
The 3 is also flexible, with jobs out of 180 and 239 everyday.
So send it to the 3! Or lay it up at New Lots and send it out on the 1! We West Siders want our Redbirds back!
Since the topic keeps coming up, the MTA os going after trademarks of the character-in-a-colored-circle trademarks for the 1, 4, 7, A, D and F lines. Here is salient information for the "F" train mark:
Word Mark F
Goods and Services IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: Clothing, namely tee-shirts, sweatshirts, tank tops, caps, socks, ties, jackets and underwear.
FIRST USE: 19790101. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19790101
Serial Number 76381296
Filing Date March 12, 2002
Owner (APPLICANT) Metropolitan Transportation Authority CORPORATION NEW YORK 347 Madison Avenue New York NEW YORK 10017
Attorney of Record Lester Freundlich
Description of Mark The mark consists of a white letter F within an orange circle
They've filed a second application for the same letters for a different Goods/Services class:
IC 039. US 100 105. G & S: Transportation of passengers by rapid transit system.
As I and others have said, this is the correct route for the MTA to try to protect their design, not copyright.
The application is in its earliest stage, but if it clears the initial hurdles, there'll be an opposition period. How do you think could oppose the mark? Sesame Street? :D
My tax dollars hard at work once again. I guess the the MTA is planning a big crackdown on those guys selling "F" train T-shirts. I wonder if they'll have a "T-shirt" squad?? Although as a former "F" train rider I'm glad they are making such efforts to give my old line the status it deserves. While the rest of the system was falling apart during the bad old days of the 1970s and early 1980s the "F" was humming along with clean, air-conditioned R-44 and R-46 cars. I always wondered why we were so favored?
I'd have to agree with "Dan". It irks me that a portion of my
fare and tax dollars is going to pay lawyers to pursue this BS
which has absolutely no bearing on the quality of my transit service.
I also feel, although I'm sure it is legal, that as a public
agency, the MTA has no business trying to place intellectual
property restrictions on what is essentially a public service.
At least this most recent application is closer to the intent of
the trademark act, which is to prevent fraudulent or accidental
confusion of a company's products and services. So, if someone
starts up a jitney bus operation using the circle-F logo, they'll
have a case.
It *is* relevent to your service.
By owning the mark, and collecting a royalty for its use on shirts bags and or whatever, they are able to SUBSIDIZE YOUR FARE!
; ) Elias
LOL, this site should pitch in together and trade mark the other letter, then the MTA will have to pay us for the copyrights to use the letters on the subway line.
Interesting idea. I don't think we could trademark the letters and numbers the TA is actually using.
However, I have an idea for those of us who don't like skip-stop on the 1/9: trademark the number 9, which isn't currently in use. Come September, the TA will have to choose between doing away with skip-stop for good or paying us royalties for each 9 train. We win either way! (Piggo?)
To register a trademark you have to either be using the trademark in commerce (you're already providing something tangible with the mark) or file as ITU (Intent-to-Use) and with the latter. I won't go into the heavy details, but if the Patent and Trademark Office goes along with the latter, you then have six months to actually use the mark to the registration to be granted.
I suppose, in theory, someone hawking T-shirts for lines other than 1-4-7-A-D-F with a TM on them (to claim a common law trademark) could attempt to register a mark for these "other" lines. The MTA would be sure to oppose these. I wonder how this would cut in court if the T-shirt maker could come up with a decent IP law firm?
Mind you that if you actually got the Marca Registrada for your T-shirt "9" that wouldn't stop the TA from using the symbol on their trains.
So you're saying that the number 9 would have to be used on trains in order to prevent the TA from using it?
Hmmm. Do trolleys count? What's the latest word on the Red Hook trolley? Will even a little piece be up and running by early September?
Since the TA has already used it they could continue to use it.
It is not the number itself but the complete symbol that is being trademarked (Colored circle/diamond, white/black, letter/number).
Since that combination is being used to rperesent very specific product/service and is intended to generate recognition of that service I believe it can be trademarked (TM) or servicemarked (SM).
Ah, but the service the TA labeled 9 is different from the service it plans on labeling 9 in September: the new one won't stop at Cortlandt Street. If I trademark the number 9 (white foreground in a filled red circle) before September, then I can collect royalties unless the 9 train stops at a station that no longer exists.
One clarification, Paul, it must be (or intended to be) used in interstate commerce. It cost me about $500 for me to do-it-myself.
--"The Portable Weather Center®"
Todd, I didn't know it had to be interstate. NYC subway service isn't. Let's see if they get the registration.
Filing fee is now $325 per class (I think) plus whatever your attorney charges and costs.
PM, Editor, The Third Rail® :)
I think the interstate commerce can be invoked if the merchandise can be shipped outside of NY state, if ordered by phone, on the Web, etc.
I like the idea, if we have to suffer with skip stop, we might as well get something for it. Or Mayor Bloomberg can stop the 9 train in an effort to bridge the budget gap.
_oes this me_n th_t i_ I w_nt to write _ _ew mess_ges to _nyone th_t I c_n no longer use these 6 letters or numbers unless I p_y the MT_ roy_lties?
--M_rk
Hey Mark, cut the dose. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Or increase it.
This won't get very far. Years ago, Zilog tried to trademark the letter "Z". It was rejected. Later they tried trademarking the letter with a specific typeface, color, and background. It was rejected again. You can't trademark single letters, nor any combination of digits. That, by the way, is the reason that Intel CPU chips now have made-up (and thus trademark-able) names instead of numbers like "486".
Numbers or letters can be trademarks, if they are associated enough with their product.
"1006" is a registered trademark of Bonne Bell Inc. for face lotion.
"X" is a registered trademark of Currenex, Inc. for financial services.
Seen at 3rd ave on the L in simulated stops:
8181-8184 with 8177-8180
6/18-19/02 (overnight)
so how many are in service now
as of the same date:
8101-8101, 8109-8116, 8125-8132, 8169-8172 with 8156-8160 are in passenger service on the L line (weekdays. So Far I have not seen it Friday/Saturday, Saturday/Sunday or SUnday/Monday overnight periods. Based on actual sightings it **seems** the run weekdays only from Monday Rush to sometime Friday night.
NOTE: This is based on actual observation at 3rd Ave station prior to starting work- there may or may not be more at E NY yard or Canarsie Yard or elsewhere in the system.
8101-8108? I think you put 8101-8101, but most should get the idea.
nice! you passed my test:-)
Also seen on 6/19/02 AM Rush- 8149-8152 with 8153-8156, meaning 5 different R143 trains are running.
Are there any stations in NYC or elsewhere where there is a crossover inside a station?
Passenger crossovers? Plenty!
Train crossovers? None I can think of...
David
Edinburgh Waverley, Scotland. Between platform 10 and 11 there is a pair of scissors crossover.
Cambridge, England. Between platforms 4a and 4b there is a pair of scissors crossover. The signal for the crossover is mounted on the platform.
AEM7
145 on the 1 uptown side has the "local" uptown track merging with the Center track within the confines of the station. See the 1 line page for more info. As an honorable mention- the swtiches for WTC on the E are adjacent to the island platform of Chambers on the A i.e. you can see them from the A Line platform.
There's also a merge on the eastern end of one of the Penn Station tracks used by the LIRR. I don't recall the track number, but it may be 16 into 17 or some such thing. But the northern track's platform continues easterly of the junction.
How about on the 1 in Brooklyn that unpowered lead into the MOW yard is right smack in the middle of the elevated station.
"There's also a merge on the eastern end of one of the Penn Station tracks used by the LIRR. I don't recall the track number, but it may be 16 into 17 or some such thing. But the northern track's platform continues easterly of the junction"
That's Track 17. I believe a similar situation exists at Jamaica LIRR on Track 5 at both the eastern and western ends.
CG
That's right, but in both cases the switch is within the station but past the end of the platform affected. At 145 the platforms are offset; if a ten-car train is stopped at the NB platform with the doors open, another train can pass it on the middle track. Also, at Canal IND, the platforms are offset with scissors crossovers occupying the excess space at either end.
Your question is unclear. I am assuming you mean pedestrian crossovers. Every station with a mezzanine by definition has a crossover, and quite a few stations have mezzanines. As I recall, even some grade-level/el stations have such things (e.g., CI).
Some stations have mezzanines but have separate fare controls for each direction. Two such stations that come to mind are 72nd on the 1/2/3 and Van Wyck Blvd. on the E/F.
Many if not most elevated stations have mezzanines. I don't know why you bring up Coney Island; it's a terminal station (most trains that come in then go right back to wherever they came from) and it's a transfer point.
Elevated stations with crossovers: I interpret this to mean you go upstairs from the platform level, cross over the trains and back down to the opposite platform. Lower mezzanines, yes: this is the standard el configuration.
I hope I'm remembering the CI thingy right. Its purpose was difficult to ascertain (perhaps as an emergency exit for a blocked forward exit). It was basically a steel pedestrian overpass at the north end, with stairs to the individual platforms.
Yes, you're right. I was equating crossovers and crossunders.
Coney Island does have a transfer bridge at about the midway point on the platforms. Transfers can also be done via the mezzanine, but it's a shlep.
I meant rail switches. I can see how someone would think passenger crossover. Oops.
Oh. 95th/Ft Ham comes to mind, tho', actually they're in the tunnel.
The Exchange Place PATH Station sort of did. Look at http://www.geocities.com/otpnjpics/path4.jpg. Note how the platform curves left at the very end of the station. But, a train to Hoboken would need to go straight (more or less). The switching track starts in the station. There are no full diamond crossovers in any station that I know of in any system anywhere.
Have you been to the 145th St. station of the number 3 line lately?
There is a full double scissor crossover right in the station - you can see it up close for yourself. The station is kind of small and not too well used, but the crossover is there.
I can give you four.
Rahway, Northbound platform on the NEC is about 2-4 carlength into UNION interlocking with a turnout along the platform length.
Metutchen on the NEC is smack in the middle of LINCOLN interlocking, a complete 4-track crossover.
Overbrook station on the Amtrak Harrsiburg Line is smack in the middle of OVERBROOK interlocking, a complete 4-track crossover.
Bryn Mawr station on the Amtrak Harrsiburg Line is smack in the middle of BRYN MAWR interlocking, another complete 4-track crossover.
I can add Longh Branch - The Tr ack normally used from NYC has a switch to the yard within the confines of the station platform.
Didn't the Baldwin interlocking sit within the station site? (the crossover is a four-track one way crossing, and if you don't know where it is, Baldwin is between Crum Lynne and Eddystone on the Amtrak Northeast Corridor and SEPTA's R2 Marcus Hook/Wilmington/Newark, DE line.
Thorndale Station at the west end of SEPTA's R5 line sits on the site of Thorn interlocking. (There's a full high level platform on the inbound side, which R5 trains use (Thorndale is the last stop, so they arrive and leave from this platform), and a low level platform with a mini-high on the outbound side (Amtrak doesn't use this sation, so my guess is SEPTA's thinking of once again opening their service to Coatesville and Parkesburg)) The interlock is an eight-track two way crossing, and something you'd have to see to believe.
Lansdale Station on the eastern end of the R5 line was once a junction. The trains using the main station building were trains bound for Quakertown, Allentown, and probably Bethlehem. A smaller platform served by one track was and still is used for trains to Doylestown
Wayne Junction... the tracks split just shy of the south end of the sation. Three main tracks are used to/from Fox Chase, or the line to Fern Rock and Jenkintown (and Glenside and points beyond), two outbound, one inbound. The other two tracks are for the R7 to/from Chestnut Hill East. The inbound main and outbound C. Hill East tracks connect to the car shop on the other side of Germantown Avenue. I think that there's a crossover between the two Chestnut Hill East tracks just before this point.
Cheltenham on the R8 Fox Chase line is a junction itself. The CSX-operated New York Short Line tracks diverge at this point, heading east. They connect near Neshaminy Falls on the R3 West Trenton. At Neshaminy Falls Station, there's a one-way crossover. I think it's used to route trains off the outermost track (The track used by inbound R3 trains) to the outbound track, and then to the Short Line towards Cheltenham. The interlock sits within station property.
There was a crossover on Chicago's Loop "L" from the Outer Loop to the Inner Loop at Washington and Wells when all Loop operation was counter-clockwise, pre-Dan Ryan. There was a continuous platform connecting Randolph & Wells station and Madison & Wells station. In non-rush hours, Ravenswood trains would use the Outer Loop platform at Randolph, then cross to the Inner Loop for all other stations, starting with Madison & Wells. To all appearances, the crossover was within the station.
There's a few at Penn station. You just need to know where to look
PATH station at Harrison, NJ. Although there is no crossover between the Tubes and the Amtrak-NJT railline, there is one between the east(south)bound and west(north)bound tracks of the Amtrak-NJT line within the station.
There was a crossover in Mineola station years ago. It was moved towards Merrilon ave at some poont, then moved back towards Hicksville about 5 years ago. Mineola is one of the places I've seen track switches with grade crossings over them, at least on mainline track. Locust Valley has a switch right near the crossing, but I suspect the frog isn't on the crossing itself.
I think the OB line has a crossing on the bridge over 25B (or was it 25?).
Ok - here's one weirder question - does anyone besides the LIRR still have any self gaurding frogs on frequently used track? The Port Washington station has a number of them in it's yard.
As an aside - I see the LIRR has discovered the moveable frog and spring frog - both have appeared on the mainline, finally.
Was there or is there still a crossover at the Metro North Woodlawn Station on the inbound side?
There was a diamond at Court St. BMT (or was it Lawrence?)
that required flipping up part of the platform.
Track 4 on the Times Sw shuttle crosses the platform which
has to be flipped up out of the way for that move.
I think there is one more example in the subway, but it eludes me.
Flipped up or taken apart, because to me it looks like pieces of metal that were found on the sidewalk for garbage pickup and were welded into a bridge sort of structure that could be taken apart (or flipped up) ahh whatever.
>>There was a diamond at Court St. BMT (or was it Lawrence?)
that required flipping up part of the platform<<
Lawrence St had the crossover with metal plates on the north end of the platform.
Bill "Newkirk"
238 St. on the 1. On the southbound at the very north end. Switch from M to 1. You can see a little cut out of the platform to accommodate the end excess for a train to make the move.
I don't know...I think I've seen some in Asia.
There's a switch on the East Rail north of the second final stop, Sheung Shui. It's less than 15 metres from the end of the platform.
Or I could say Mong Kok and Yau Ma Tei, both on the Kwun Tong Line. Yau Ma Tei, especially, since the north end of the KTL terminal platforms curve into each other, preparing for the 0.6 km journey north to Mong Kok, while interchanging levels AND tracks in that short distance. It's a short order, but the track gets it done.
Or you could also say the LRT loop terminals at Yuen Long or Tuen Mun Ferry Pier. The platforms are located inside the giant loop. Trains can run in one direction, turn around, and move out the other without muss or fuss. It's quite a cool concept, really. Switches are aplenty at both Tuen Mun and Yuen Long terminuses....Well, I could add Tin Shui Wai, Siu Hong and Tin King all to a lesser degree.
-J!
Alvik station here in Stockholm. It's a four-track station, the outer tracks being used by the subway and the inner tracks by a light rail line called Nockebybanan (line 12). The latter has a full scissors crossover within the station.
The crossover is there so that arriving trains on line 12 can provide an easy cross-platform transfer to southbound (to central Stockholm) subway trains, then navigate the crossover to provide an equally easy cross-platform transfer *from* northbound subway trains to line 12.
Mvh Tim
During the past few days while riding the N and R I notice there's this door at the northern end of the southbound platform at Cortlandt Street, beyond the doors there seem to be this hallway which leads into the outer edge of Ground Zero. Does anyone else notice it? Does anyone know what it is? Is this the new exit for the N and R? If it is an exit when will it be done?
Yes, I saw a lot of doors open there this morning. Two of the open doors looked like they opened up into a large room or hallway. I assume they are completing fixing up the station, but I wonder what those large rooms are.
They must lead into the shopping concourse level of 5 WTC. Unlike 4 and 6 WTC, the subterranean levels of 5 WTC were not destroyed by the collapse of 1 and 2 WTC and have not been demolished.
Aim,
You are correct. They go directly into the mall. :(
You are correct. The 5 WTC underground space is now being demolished because it is unstable and unusable in any new plan for Ground Zero.
I have some surplus railfan fotos to dispose of.
Instead of auctioning them on ebay, I thought I would just sell them at fixed price on Subtalk. I don't know if this is acceptable to Dave, but if it isn't, then how about I donate the profits to Dave's network bandwidth fund?
I have mainly shots of Acelas, AEM-7s and HHP-8's up and down the Northeast Corridor, some photos of P-42's, and some photos of Norfolk Southern trains taken in Ohio. They are all from May-June 2002. I have other ones, and these will surface as I tidy up the lab.
So I was thinking about making this deal. Anyone who wants to participate should send me an email at AEM7902@aol.com. The price is going to be fixed, and will be $4.00 per 25 photos, including postage to anywhere in the USA. That's 16 cents per photo. Sorry, you don't get to choose the photos, but I will try to make sure you don't get duplicates. And if you indicate your region of interest (i.e. NEC, Midwest, foreign), I will try to oblige. Sorry, you can only get them in packs of 25 photos. If I run out, then I will refund part of the $.
AEM7
For the record, I don't mind people advertising items for sale on SubTalk as long as the item is relevant and the ads few and far between from any single indiviual.
How come everyone says that King Kong tore up the Third Avenue El when it was in fact the Sixth? The line was double tracked and about to curve (as seen from the motorman's perspective). Since Kong had been chained up on Broadway and needed to cross Sixth Avenue to reach the Empire State Building, that turn looks like it was around 57th Street; where that El curved to join the 9th Avenue line.
E_DOG
Everyone's conception was that King Kong tore up the Third Avenue el, but I don't know why. Logic says it would be the 6th, and this is not a new observation.
However, logic aside, the el depicted is not the actual 6th either. The 6th had a very peculiar structure, and this is not depicted in the 1933 movie. It is likely what we are looking at is stage sets combined with stock footage that could have been any Manhattan el.
Can anything be done to protect todays els from future King Kong attacks?
Not likely. Anything that big (Kong) is bound to destroy anything as flimsy as an old El. Godzilla anyone?
E_DOG
Maybe if King Kong had gone to Queens and destroyed the Astoria el, back when the movie was made, we wouldn't have had to have last weeks discussion........ :)
In seriousness though, it's been so long that I've seen King Kong, that I don't even remember the el footage.....I'll have to watch it one day.
In the remake with Jessica Lange, it WAS the Astoria el that was destroyed!!
In the remake with Jessica Lange, it WAS the Astoria el that was destroyed!!
lol....I didn't realize that when I posted that message originally! I only found out in a later post that in the remake he actually destroyed the Astoria El! I swear I had no idea, I just thought it would be funny to mention the Astoria el! I haven't seen either King Kong movie in at least 15 years.
"Anything that big (Kong) is bound to destroy anything as flimsy as an old El."
All seriousness aside, maybe King Kong could destroy the old els, but what about the els rebuild under the dual contracts for steel subway cars.
I mean, after all if they can hold up to the D-Types, Kong would be nothing :-)
I wouldn't bet against him (Kong).
E_DOG
Kong could probably clean-and-jerk a BMT standard. He'd probably take a Triplex apart section by section.
Godzilla?
Only if the trains have "Kato" stamped into the bottom!!!
(No kidding, one of the Godzilla movies, it is actually visible!!)
Only King Ghidorah is properly positioned to destroy New York City rapid transit.
Three heads--one for each division!
Only if the trains have "Kato" stamped into the bottom!!!
(No kidding, one of the Godzilla movies, it is actually visible!!)
Which one? Anon_e_mouse Jr. is also known as godzillafan@comcast.net but he hasn't mentioned it... don't know if he's noticed. Anyway, he has all but one or two of the Godzilla movies so I'd be curious to see it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Crack down on the importation of four-story high gorillas.
The actual design, with the columns on the sidewalk, is more consistent with the Jamaica Avenue El. It consisted of no stock footage from any actual El but was rather a very elaborate model built to accomodate an 18 inch Kong.
E_DOG
This was a question I'd thought to ask the last time I saw the film, but never remembered to.
So. It was just a set, a fantasy el of the sort we'd all like to design.
It's still a pretty good movie.
I haven't seen the movie in a while, but IIRC there is footage of an el train approaching with a headlight (as on Manhattan el equipment) and a view down the tracks approaching Kong. My impression is that these shots were based on modified stock footage.
Maybe I'll rent the DVD sometime and do some stop-motion sleuthing and see if my impression is plausable.
No, they (the trains) were animated on the studio model. I have a copy of the 1975 book "The Making of King Kong" which explains it in great detail.
E_DOG
The 6th had a very peculiar structure
What was peculiar about its structure?
The main lateral support beams were on the side of the structure and extended above the trackbed.
Now I can find out for sure if the el in my grandfather's 1936 photos taken from street level is the 6th Ave. el.
The turnoff to 53rd St. is clearly depicted in the original King Kong.
I don't recall a turnoff but it's been a long time since I saw the movie. Why do you think it's the turnoff at 53rd on the 6th and not some other elevated curve?
It is my opinion that the whole scene was a set..even if it was supposed to represent 6thAve. For one thing I thought the headlight was rather bright; for another the on-board scene showed a car number which would have een some 4700 which was a A Steinway or Low-V.And the interior was not actually one of those.Of course we know the wreck scene had to be a fake..it would have been an awfully expensive movie if not. My thoughts are all the train movement and wreck scenes are models. Hollywood fakeout for the day: Dark Corner a good late 40's flick: Steet scene with the el station with street signs showing 3rd Ave and Grand. Good try, if I'm not wrong GrandSt. station was on the Bowery?
Ed, I really have to see the original Kong movie again. I saw the movie many times on "Million Dollar Movie" on WOR-TV. For the longevity-challenged that was a show in the early days of TV where a hand-full of expensively-made movies (by the standards of the times) were shown (IIRC) twice a day for an entire week at a time.
The el scene was too short and, of course, no pause or instant replay. I'm gonna see if it's available on DVD at my local Blockbuster--or maybe it'd be cheaper to buy. It's funny to argue where the emporium where Kong was displayed was--i.e., Times Square, further up Broadway, etc. -- truth to tell, it was in L.A., but of course they don't say that in the movie.
But on the issue of authentic train wrecks in movies, The Fugitive is an interesting case. The train wreck shown at the beginning of every TV show really looked kind of Lionel, but the movie with Harrison Ford began with a real staged train wreck--and they knew they had one take! They didn't have a backup if someone messed up the camera work! Some details are here.
You know, a still of King Kong trashing the el would make for a wonderful logo for this site. Copyright problems, however, probably make this a no-no.
Was that Mayor Hylan in the gorilla suit?
Good thought on Hylan..but maybe more likely a young Robert Moses! haha.
Thanks for the tips...I have the Fugitive, and indeed it is too realistic not to be real. Another major trainwreck was "The Greatest Show on Earth"; think the nastiest was "The Cassandra Crossing' but I can't say those scenes are my favorite part of any movie.
the Fugitive, and indeed it is too realistic not to be real.
The BBC was scheduled to show "the Fugitive" on the day of the Train Crash at Southall, West London. Unsurprisingly, it was cancelled.
The Fugitive has a phenominal train wreck scene, in addition to being an overall good movie. Back in a former life when I was working in the home theater department of a Circuit City store, I often used that scene to demonstrate our top-of-the-line LaserDisc players (remember those?) and audio equipment. You've never seen that scene until you've seen it in a sound room with full THX surround sound!
-- David
Chicago, IL
As promised, I dug out the two photos in question and sure enough, you can plainly see the steelwork on the sides of the structure. It's the 6th Ave. el, all right. My grandfather also took a picture of an elevated station with a train pulling in; however, you can't see any signs. It's a three-track line with Dual Contracts-style station canopies. The train appears to be a wooden el train. We know that my grandfather gave a lecture somewhere in Brooklyn, so it's quite possible he may have taken the subway at some point. Someday I'll scan the photo. It's a miracle those negatives survived; my grandfather left all of his black-and-white stuff behind when my mother's family fled Lithuania in 1944 and we concluded everything was lost or destroyed. It turned out that a family friend salvaged everything and secretly safeguarded it for 50 years. He turned the negatives (about 250 rolls) over to us in 1994 and we brought everything home. I met him in 1997 and personally thanked him.
Thanks!
To extend this to Hollywood's stretching matters all too familar are the use of LA area trains like SP and PE for scenes anywhere. If you can find "Union Station" from 1950 you'll see a couple of stock scenes of the Manhattan el, one of which has a 1880's era gate car onthe point after some cop says the culprit was boarding an elevated train.Scene immediately changes to the PE which is a treat anyway [for fans]. One street scene of 3rd ave el appears, back to PE. Also nice shots of what I think is...or is supposed to be...the Chicago freight subway. Did LA have such an operation? not that I know of.
One thing they got right; the trains used were clearly the M.U.D.C. cars of the old Manhattan elevateds.
E_DOG
>>> Also nice shots of what I think is...or is supposed to be...the Chicago freight subway. Did LA have such an operation? <<<
I have not seen the movie, so I do not know what the scene you are referring to looked like, but in 1950 the L.A. Subway terminal was active with about a mile of tunnel and extensive switching before the terminal. It only handled streetcars, no freight.
Tom
Maybe it was the Astoria El he ripped up.........sorry, I had to do that.
Actually, it seems more logical if it was the 6th Ave, since the ESB is right near there.
I was wondering, maybe when Amtrak is done with the Money Problems (Probably Never), they can purchase a Diesel Trainset that can produce enough horsepower to run at high speeds, perhaps the new Talgo XXI Diesel Trainset that made it up to 152 mph.
And also maybe in the future, Amtrak can purchase High Speed Diesel Trainsets, but Double Decker Style just like the TGV Duplex in France, unless Amtrak has enough money to build Catenary for long distance travel.
Amtrak doesn't own any of the ROW they run on, except the NEC, the line to Harrisburg (all the way to Pittsburgh?), and a small strech in Michigan(?). AAR calls for catenary clearance of 15' where there are no overhead obstructions. A double-stack well car or a tri-level autorack are 20' high. You can see where I'm going.
-Hank
That's why you put catenary at 25' high.
AEM7
That's why you put catenary at 25' high.
Not under 18' bridges.
the line to Pittsburgh is definitely not owned by Amtrak...it is Conrail/Norfolk Southern.
AAR calls for catenary clearance of 15' where there are no overhead obstructions.
That is a minimum number. PRR elestric locomotives were 15' high w/ the pans locked down so most catenary is significantly higher than 15 feet.
PRR had a higher 'reach' than New haven, too. I believe the PRR *did* run autoracks under their wires and I've seen the covered types along the NEC in NJ.
IIRC, they could reach up to 20 or a little higher, but you might have had speed restrictions in high wire land.
Very high speed tracks, you want the pan 1/2 compressed so you can lock the bottom arm and follow with the top (yes, they do it that way), but that's at 180+ mph, which will not be seen in the US for years, if ever. For 110mph, you can get away with a lot more, esp if it's constant tension and well damped.
A question about pans and catenary: as an operator, do you adjust the pans to reach the catenary, or is it automatic? and how do you know where to raise it, and how high to raise it?
The pan pops up to the height of the wire, the operator only needs to press an 'up' button to allow it to pop up and touch the wire, or a 'down' button, if he needs to retract it so it's not against the wire, for whatever reason. It's spring loaded, so it just presses against the wire and follows any height changes. Generally, they're left in the up position. If they need to be lowered, pressing the down button causes it to lower all the way and lock. This 'Locked down height" is below the lowest point the wire ever reached, by a few inches, to ensure it doesn't contact the wire. Under certain circumstances, the pan will retract on its own.
Those sardine can trainsets are cramped, bouncy and deadly in a crash.
High speed is not possible if the tracks and signal are not upgraded. It's like owning a hot Italian car (or Acela) and having a cobble stone street to run on (like a ROW with tons of curves and too many interlocks).
Upgrade the infurstructure first (and watch for the NIMBY crowd).
The Talgo sets run 152 on electric. On diesel, they can run 125mph, which has proven to be the practical limit of diesel traction.
The issue is you simply can not get a diesel that's light enough to get up to high speeds, and weight is the issue at high speeds, not power. That's why I suspect the Bombardier HSFFL gas turbine experiment will be a dud too.
Having to carry your powerplant is a liability in many ways.
I suspect the TEL will die for other reasons. The only other turbine experiment that's active in the US, the Railpower Green Goat, has already been sidelined due to technical problems.
What subway line did King Kong tear up in the remake of King Kong & what station did both Jessica Lange & Jeff Bridges get on.
Also, what park did King Kong escape.
He tore up the Astoria El and then swam across the East River.
E_DOG
Aw, that was a great movie, much better than that old black and white thing. He ripped appart some R16 if my memory serves me right.
He tore up the Astoria El and then swam across the East River
LOL.....There's that el again! That must have made King Kong your best friend!
I was there when the movie was being filmed, it was the summer of 1976. A wooden mock up of an R16 painted in the white with blue-stripe scheme was used. It was attached to some sort of crane near the old Astoria El tower on 31 St and 23 Rd on the Ditmars-bound side between Astoria Blvd and the Ditmars stations. Probably the crane was used to simulate King Kong smashing up the train. The filming was done at night and there was no RR service at the time. Filming was done in various parts of Astoria because the scene where Jeff Bridges was running down the street was 33 St on the south side of Astoria Blvd/Grand Central Pkwy. I recall also (correct me if I'm wrong) that they filmed on the actual station platform at Astoria Blvd. I moved to Puerto Rico shortly after that and saw the movie when I lived in PR.
As for the thread about the Astoria El, no comment.
Jose
I don't know what park King Kong escaped from, but I do know that the subway scene was filmed in Astoria, in the vicinity of the old Ditmars tower (23rd Rd. & 31st St.). I remember going over there to watch the filming, since I lived about 5 blocks away at the time. Jeff & Jessica got on the train at Astoria Blvd. The train in the movie was an R-16 mock-up constructed of wood & masonite, in fact, I have the side destination signs from this car in my garage. After the filming of that scene was over, they were cutting up the wood car, and I had asked for the side sign piece. It's a sheet of masonite about 3 feet square, with the signs reading ASTORIA/95 STREET-4 AVENUE/RR-BROADWAY LOCAL. My skills regarding putting a picture in a post are limited, or else I would post it here.
Wish I had scrolled up to this before I made the earlier post. As I recall there was an electronic screen that showed Kong; I thought that meant it was Shea.
Are all of the old slant R-40's going to CI from ENY when the R143's enter service? Will the Q still have the R68's with the few R68A's that ride along with them from time to time, or will it be like the Q diamond with slants? I know that the N will be the old hand me downs that should include all R40's. And how many R68's will be transferring to Concourse? Will CI have a huge surplus of equipment when all of these swaps end? Will this also help with the additional service to CI yard lines when the Manhattan Bridge reopens in 2004?
One last thing, if anyone can email me a straight forward answer, I would appreciate it. Thanks!
1) The slants that are not needed at ENY due to the acceptance of 143's are slated for CI.
2) Unknown at this time.
3) A somewhat lower number. Remeber, 8 75' MU's equals 10 60' MU's.
4) No, since these cars are destined to be scrapped in the future.
5) Possibly.
Are all of the old slant R-40's going to CI from ENY when the R143's enter service?
Yes, also some R40M/42
Will the Q still have the R68's with the few R68A's that ride along with them from time to time, or will it be like the Q diamond with slants?
I dont think thats known at this time
I know that the N will be the old hand me downs that should include all R40's. And how many R68's will be transferring to Concourse?
depends on concourses need
Will CI have a huge surplus of equipment when all of these swaps end?
no, it will be spread around the system
Will this also help with the additional service to CI yard lines when the Manhattan Bridge reopens in 2004?
i dont know, but before 2004 they will be used for makeing the G 6 cars and the c 10 cars
Who said at the TA that once equipment becomes ready, they will put 6 R46's on the G and 10 60' R untis on the C?
I can't answer your question (although I'm pretty sure I heard it from someone either here or on Harry's board), but I think the C is scheduled to get 600-foot (10-car) trains beginning September 8, with the new pick. I'm not sure about the G.
TRhe G and C can uses longer train. It all depend on how fast the R143's can be put into service.
Robert
So, in other words the G and C can either get the R42's or slants or may be neither depending what the dispatcher want, huh?
More likely, as R-40's, R-40M's, and R-42's go to Coney Island, Coney Island will send its R-32's to Pitkin and Jamaica. The ones at Pitkin will go to the C; the ones at Jamaica will go to the F (or perhaps the R), freeing up R-46's for the G.
But few R46's are in 2 car sets - only 12 or 14 pairs. There may not be enough to cover all G consists. The route is aborted, but it runs more often during the rush.
its enough for the G
There were enough 2-car sets to run 6-car G trains when they ran to Continental. There are certainly enough 2-car sets to run 6-car G trains now that the route is shorter.
Or run 8 R-32's instead, like the C does now.
For anyone who goes onto RRnet forums, is there anyone else who has problems? Just curious.
Yes, everyone.
Yes Im having problems as well. I think the site needs some more work on it?
Is this GG-1 owned by anybody? Because if not, I'll go and strip it of it's parts and use them for different experiments.
Of course it's owned by someone! And if you took the time to read the website I pointed you to earlier, you'd know who.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm almost certain that nobody has thought of doing what you plan to do.
Go for it bud!
It's a disgrace that the GG-1 has been allowed to deteriorate so terribly.
Ok, I have to ask this. Are you insane?
Nah, I just think the GG-1 is ugly, everyone has their own opinion.
>>Nah, I just think the GG-1 is ugly, everyone has their own opinion.<<
That GG-1 may be ugly to you, but they would beat the pants off any electric engine on Slamtrak today.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not to mention the rail joints with all them wheels. :)
>>Not to mention the rail joints with all them wheels.<<
GG-1 = Ultimate rail polishers !
Bill "Newkirk"
32 speed throttles, no waiting. AND you can light either end. :)
They are some sweeet looking engines. My dad got me an HO model one long before I had a major interest in trains, and I'm starting to realize why their beauty.
One question though - if they're so good, why did Amtrak and other companies stop putting them to use?
Mostly because they were wearing out. A product of the 1930's, they had 1-piece cast frames. The designation GG-1 meant they where the equivalent of 2 4-6-0's back to back. PRR's class letter for a 4-6-0 steam locomotive was "G".
The frames for each section (there are two under that cab) were cast in one piece, which was normal in the 1920-1950 period, but can no longer be done anywhere. By the 1970's the motors (Pennsyese for electric engines) frames were a mass of welds. Plus, they had oil-filled main transformers, a no-no today. Another problem was that they had no HEP capability, only steam heat.
Nothing lasts forever. The GG-1 was a majastic piece of equipment that performed feats no AEM7 could ever dream of. They served well for many years and are remembered fondly.
>>The GG-1 was a majastic piece of equipment that performed feats no AEM7 could ever dream of.<<
One of them was in the 1950's when a passenger train with a GG-1 on the point lost it's brakes and crashed in Washington's Union Terminal and landed in the basement. The engine was later cut into pieces and removed. It was later reassembled and put back on the road for many years of service. Now let's see an AEM-7 duplicate that !
#4876 was her number, and I got a shot of her in PC black during an engine change at South Amboy in the late 70's.
Bill "Newkirk"
One of them was in the 1950's
January, 1953, just before Ike's inauguration. A temoprary floor was installed over 4876 because there wasn't time to remove her before the masses arrived at Union Terminal for the inauguration.
The engine was later cut into pieces and removed.
By crane through a hole cut in the roof for that purpose.
http://www.dcnrhs.org/union_wreck.htm
http://www.thejoekorner.com/rrfolklore/fedexp.shtm
Thanks for the links, an amazing story about an amazing engine.
Bill "Newkirk"
And you thought "Silver Streak" was fiction. :)
That engine is one of the ones preserved... it's in horrible shape, however, at the B&O museum in Baltimore.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>One question though - if they're so good, why did Amtrak and other companies stop putting them to use?<<
I guess their age was catching up with them. Also with 25KV on the horizon, the "G"'s couldn't have run on that voltage.
Back in the early 80's watching the engine change at South Amboy was a real treat.
That's when the "G"'s were uncoupled and E-8's were coupled for the trip to Bay Head Jct. Spent many a Saturday photographing and watching this.
Bill "Newkirk"
Now they make you change trains...
-Hank
Back in the early 80's watching the engine change at South Amboy was a real treat.
That's when the "G"'s were uncoupled and E-8's were coupled for the trip to Bay Head Jct. Spent many a Saturday photographing and watching this.
Yeah, the "good old days". I also went to South Amboy a couple times to see the change of the G's and the E's.
The G's could. Install a transformer with a 25kv tap.
"Is this GG-1 owned by anybody?"
The Leatherstocking Museum.
The have the original locomotive that used to run on the Cooperstown Raildroad, (leased from Suisie-Q for $100/month, they own the Cooperstown line and are rebuilding it ala Branford or Bill Diamond.
I rode on that locomotive (the little diesel not the GG-1) two years ago.
The line goes right by my brother's ex-house, his liitle girls uesd to play on the track (at that time NOT OPERATING), now they are both graduated from college.
Elias
Don't know if anyone owns that GG-1, but maybe you can tell me if any one owns this R-44?
I have some experiments of my own to perform. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
How dare you bring up a beat up R-44!!! That is a disgrace to all R-44 lovers, like me, LOL!!
SalaamAllah. Look at the size of that railfan window!
--Mark
lol....he he he he...lol
Peace,
ANDEE
Too many bugs will get blown in my eyes. Plus where is the controller, thats a non-cab end!
Hands off the Selkirk Subway school car, bro ... we're just waiting for the claims adjuster. :)
Anyone ever read a sci-fi novel called "Manhattan Transfer"? That car reminds me of the first chapter. As part of the action (PART, mind you) a subway car and the underwater tunnel it's passing through are cut neatly in half by a laser beam!
The TA should hold onto that car. If and when the book is made into a movie (the rights have been sold, IIRC), it will make a *perfect* prop for the first scene. :^)
All you need is some duct tape! That's what's holding the nose of my car on...
-Hank
Actually, this GG1 is not owned by the Leatherstocking Museum. It was owned by them until about a year ago, at which time they sold it to an enthusiast by the name of Szarmach. He has since been doing a great deal of work on it in an effort to restore it to five-stripe livery (and I think this was actually one of the units painted in Tuscan red by the Pennsy, although I'm not sure). Notice in the picture: the roof has been stripped and primed. More recent photos I've seen show the entire unit in primer, with a good deal of metal welded in to replace rusted sections. The plan is that 4932 (aka PRR 4909) will eventually be restored by Mr. Szarmach and moved to Danbury. There IS restoration work being done on this locomotive, and parts stripping will NOT be appreciated! :-)
BTW, the other GG1 there, the one in the background of the photo, is 4934 (ex-PRR 4917) and is still owned by Leatherstocking.
Frank Hicks
I looked at the picture of the GG-1. It is still something to look at even though the paint has faded and become worn. One can only imagine what it looked like when it wore the Pennsylvania R.R. color scheme.
#3 West End Jeff
I wish I could put that in my garage (we never put autos in it, cause overhead doors beatten up to use on a continual bases (thanks O'Briens >:-<(former house owners))
Did the IRT/BMT/IND and/or MTA NYC Transit ever employ people whose job it was to push people into the subway/elevated cars? (kind of like they have in Japan I think)
Why bother when the rest of the crowd on the platform will do it for free?
A friend asked me if this was true so I'm asking you.
They used to have *Platform Conductors"
They operated the MANUAL gap fillers.
As said above, New Yorkers anre not as inhibited as the Japanese and will push their own way onto the cars.
Elias
thanks for the info
It would never work in NYC if anyone pushes they get pushed back.
But, David, you do also read the stories about the IRT-guys who tumm-tee-tummed ones butt about getting onto the train, and not delaying the train?
Once upon a time, NYC was like Tokyo, where one's butt was padded onto or off a train.
The classic war movie "Sergeant York" was about a WW1 hero whose buddy was a NY subway pusher.
I havent been down to Pat's steaks at 9th and Passyunk in South Philly in quite a while, and i plan on going back on Friday. Can anyone tell me how the neighborhood is? Good, bad, poor, middle class, anything? Will i stand out as a white male? Thanks a lot.
I've got a close friend here in Chicago who is a Philly native, and we were just talking about this very subject over lunch today.
According to my friend, Pat's (and Gino's across the street) are the touristy places that everybody goes to, but their cheesteaks are actually merely average. He reccomends Jim's Steaks on South Street instead, as well as a place called Big John's in South Jersey (I don't know the exact location, but I think it's in the vincinity of Cherry Hill.)
I've never been to Pat's nor Gino's so I can't verify how good they are, but I can certainly vouch for Jim's. One bite into my steak at Jim's and all my anxieties about moving to Philly instantly vanished!
-- David
Chicago, IL
David is right. Pat's and Geno's are in a safe nieghborhood, but the cheesesteaks there are really nothing special. Instead, go to the deli at 4th and South. But for me, the best food in Philly is Gianfranco's Pizza Rustica at 3rd and Market. Unbeatable.
Mark
Whats the best way to get there? The Broad Street subway to Ellsworth-Federal and walking east, or the 47 bus from 8th/Mkt down 8th street?
I'd walk. It's not that far and, being summer, it's a great time to walk - and you never know what else you might notivce, or whom.
Save yourself the trip and go to Jim's (4th & South) or Abner's (39th & Chestnut). Both are in good neighborhoods. Abner's is 2 blocks from 40th St on the Market St subway or 3 1/2 blocks from 36th/Sansom on the subway-surface.
Big John's is on Route 70 in Cherry Hill, just east of the I-295 crossing. If you're driving it's about 15-20 minutes from Center City in the off-peak. No South Jersey rail service gets you anywhere near it, although the NJT 406 bus going to Marlton will put you right at the doorstep.
Does anyone know if they will ever open up 76 st. Station again, or is closed for good?? And what was the purpose of that station? Was a Terminating station for the A/C Lines?? Thanks
Where is the geographic location of this station? I think I saw something like this under the thread "Lower Level 42nd St. Closure."
It's location would be after Euclid, if you went straight. It is not proven that there is/was a station there. It's kind of like believing in ghosts, the Loch Ness monster, etc. No ones proven it's there, but you can't prove it's not either. Each person just has to take all the facts and form an opinion on it. Aparently it was but on a board in some station, but that's all the proof that's there. There is no known photo of it if it is there. I don't know, sometimes I think it may be there, and other times I think no way.
Check the link below. Believe it or not.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/76st
The site was written om March 31. Either it was a good april fool's joke. Or there really is something there.
I personally believe the latter.
Very embarassed. I fell for it. He did a good job.
Brennan's slick ... and he knows his stuff. But that date (and publicizing the page, something he NEVER does) pretty much did it for me. We played "spot the paste-ups" here before as well ...
That fake photo with the R-10s dressed in silver and blue gave it away. It bore a strong resemblance to this pic:
A clever April Fool joke, IMHO.
I think you are right! The photo's location is 7th Ave!
Yep, it sure is. All Joe had to do was alter the pillar sign and the bulkhead signs on the train, plus crop the photo. Voila!
>> Yep, it sure is. All Joe had to do was alter the pillar sign and the bulkhead signs on the train, plus crop the photo. Voila! <<
Love it! Joe is my kind of guy.
look at the headlights, its funny that after removing the later installed headlights, he did not modify the paint!
¦)
You're right - it is funny.
Can you paste that 76 St photo also on here? It was the only part of that article that I thought was fake.
I remember riding the A line along Fulton Street in 1983 and no where was there fluorescent lights in the stations serving Hoyt Street all the way to Euclid Avenue.
Someone here said once that the stations between ENY (excluding that station) to Euclid were the first stations to have fluorescent lights installed when the stations were new. It must have been quite a brightness when people were used to the regular dark bulbs, and then all of a sudden as a train entered Van Sicklen the station was bright.
Actually I think I found that out when the fake photo of 76th St, aka 7 Ave, was shown with fluorescent lighting. I thought it was a dead give away. But then someone mentioned that Van Sicklen, Liberty, Shephard, and Euclid always had fluorescent lights....so why not 76th!
76th St. would have had fluorescent lighting, too. Makes sense.
In 1948, SOME stations did have fluorescent lighting, but not many. But DO check out the paint job on the pillars and the paint job on that A train ...
It would have been even funnier if that A train were sporting a racing stripe scheme.
Many stations on outer IND lines still had incandescent lighting into the 80s.
On the IND Queens Blvd line, the stations east of 71/Continental were yellow-bulbed until about 1985.
So that's why I thought TA was using yellow tile!
Union Turnpike had fluorescent lighting in 1985. I used that station a lot while visiting my sister, who was living in Forest Hills at the time.
Yep, that's the year they started to install them on those stations. That was my home station until I got married and moved away in 1995.
> That fake photo with the R-10s dressed in silver and blue gave it away.
Not to mention the sheer inconsistencies of the story. It actually said that trains operated to 76th Street, but...
"Charges were made that the last portion had not been built and thus should not be operated."
If it was actually running, how could there be charges that it had not been built?
"While the actual operation of trains to 76 St should have been enough to convince anyone the route existed, spooky rumors continued to spread."
Does that seem reasonable to anyone?
- Lyle Goldman
To quote Big Moose from the Archie comic strip, "That does not compute."
This is the stuff urban legends are made of. I can see the conversation about this in 5 years from now ..... :)
--Mark
These do tend to go in cycles ... and who knows? In 5 years, we'll probably see an R143 against the wall at 76 St. :)
With a blue stripe?
My bet's on a complete "anti-graf white" scheme with marker lights. :)
The date of the train doesn't match with the date that this "76th Street" station was open... So I knew it wasn't true from the beginning.
Well, the R-10s were brand new when the Fulton St. line opened to Euclid Ave. They just had a different paint scheme. The "A" on the bulkhead sign was in actuality identical in font to the R-1/9 curtains - much thicker than depicted in the doctored photo.
The page was up on April fool's day and then quietly taken down on the second. Hmmm. :)
So why is the page still available? Hmmm....?
To keep up appearances. And nothing on the net EVER dies.
-Hank
Dunno, bro ... but you remember the old Con Ed slogan, right? "Dig we must." (only way we'll know for sure)
To continue to attract fools. That's why.
This fool ain't walking over there unless there is a railfan trip.
We had a whole talk about that link on TOSOTT message board back in April. It came out on April Fools Day, and it was determined that most of the info in the link was an April Fools joke.
See here for more info:
TOSOTT Link for 76th St station
So the 76 St. did exist with Passenger Service, but who knows if it is still down there, I think the MTA should do a exploration to find out more about the station.
76 Street does exist. I doubt if it was ever open for customer service. I doubt if the station is finished with colored tiles on the walls. But at least the shell is there with 4 roadbeds, 2 platforms and a mezzazine with sealed-up staircases to the street.
I doubt if the station is finished with colored tiles on the walls. But at least the shell is there with 4 roadbeds, 2 platforms and a mezzazine with sealed-up staircases to the street.
Sort of like the Utica Ave shell?
I think so. There was a time before TA fixed up Utica Ave Station where you go get a glimse of the shell.
But at least the shell is there with 4 roadbeds, 2 platforms and a mezzazine with sealed-up staircases to the street.
I do have another question about the supposed "two island platform/four track station" at 76th St. If it does have that layout, why would they have made 76th an "express" station, when Euclid is right there next to it? WHy would they put two express stations next to each other, if the line was to continue further anyway?
The model board, and maps that I have seen show local platforms, not express platforms.
Elias
My mistake. I said 2 platforms meaning 2 side platforms. A local stop. I realised it after I posted it.
Ah, that makes more sense. (Then Brennen's "doctored" photo really begins to look fake, as the train is next to the wall.....)
He cropped the photo close to give the impression there were additional tracks to the right of the train.
That's what I figured, so you couldn't see the left side of the photo. However, That would rule out a "side platform station" as it is supposed to be (if it exists). If the photo was not fake It could only be a station like 7th AVe is, or a station like Euclid.
So the 76 St. did exist with Passenger Service, but who knows if it is still down there, I think the MTA should do a exploration to find out more about the station.
That page and photo were a joke. Service never ran there....if it even exists.
Maybe it was meant as a joke. But where do the 4 tracks leaving Euclid go?
Maybe it was meant as a joke. But where do the 4 tracks leaving Euclid go?
I dunno......That's exactly what I thought way back when....even before I ever even heard that there may have been a 76th St station.
Tracks After Euclid Ave
HEY!
Just 'cause it's a joke doesn't mean that it's not REAL!
Do do do do.... Do do do do.....
RS, Phone Home!
76 Street and Pitkin Ave in Queens.
I believe soemthing is there. When the IND Fulton St Subway was being built in the 1930's the line was being built ahead of what was already opened. And there is a 1939 map that shows the subway branching off into 2 lines after Euclid. One going to Lefferts Ave (now Blvd)And the other one curving along Pitkin Ave, thru the site of the current Aqueduct Race Track and parking lot and going to Brinkerhoff Blvd in South Jamaica. Also there would have been a turnoff for trains going to the Rockaways along the LIRR ROW. I'd think with WWII starting up, plans were cut back to just have the IND line go to Lefferts Blvd only and have the connection to the Rockaway ROW at Liberty Ave instead of Pitkin Ave. The tunnel section that was built was sealed up and people forgot about it.
At Broadway on the G line at the other end of the mezzazine from the booth there is a large staircase that would have been a transfer to the IND Second System line coming from 2nd Ave/Houston. Someone with keys and a good flashlight could have walked back there and seen the station shell. Same at Utica Ave on the A. On the overpass there is a stairway that goes down to the unused platform.
Original planning NEVER INTENDED the Fulton Street Line to connect with the Liberty el.
It *was* supposed to follow Pitkin (with a connection in that area to the Rockaway line) then continue east on Linden Blvd to the County LION.
Clearly the MAINLINE goes EAST and also has a connection from the yard. Those tracks *ARE* there and visiable.
Beyond the concrete plug....
The Air Force set us a UBOAT tracking station to document the arrivals of UFOs from GERMANY. Because it contained SECRET EQUIPMENT that hadn't been invented yet, the had to keep the tunnel SECRET. When the war ended, they couldn't admit that they were suing secret equipment that hadn't been invented yet and so they erased the station from the maps (forgetting that it *was* on the EUCLID MODEL BOARD!). That guy that chased them off of the lawn and stopped them from taking pictures was a RETIRED AIR FARCE OFFICER who's duty was to protect and obfsucate the site. Today the AIR FORCE and NASSA use the site to track UFOs from Afstanisgan, and they *KNEW* of the 9-11 plot, but could not do anything about it for fear of compromising the SECRET EQUIPMENT that hadn't been invented yet!
Thad *that* is the rest of some story!
Elias
I don't think 76 St was ever open for customer service. It was to have been the first stop on the IND line after Euclid Ave. The line would have gone probably to South Jamaica. Due to WWII the line was abondoned but like I said above never opened.
There are a bunch of people on this site who seem to believe in unicorns, the easter bunny, santa claus, and the tooth fairy.
-Hank
Chances are something was built out in that direction and never completed. But the page in question was clearly tongue in cheek.
Chances are something was built out in that direction and never completed.
At least we agree something IS out there.
Look around the site. There is only a lead to nothing. NJo track, no platform, no tiles, just a concrete hole.
-Hank
The closest I've been able to look around the site is (from a moving train) 2 tracks that go to the yard. 2 tracks that go to Grant. And 4 tracks that keep on going. I've noticed a wall, a bumber and 2 red lights at the end of the tunnel.
It's not the yard lead to the Redbirds graveyard down there?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Not to mention the Great Pumpkin.:-)
The Great Pumpkin is REAL!
-Hank
I have a paper called 'The Bulletin' New York Division, Electric Railroaders' Ass. From July of 2001. In it explains the 76th St Station, "A" Line - Built, But never used. I dont know if Im suposed to type an article onto this site (Isnt that Copyright infringement?). Anyway there are side platforms, blue tile, and 76th St signs on the walls of the side platforms. I wanna get down there and start shooting photos. lol
So there you go :) I hope this helps
The controversey swirling around this subject is that the 76th St station was said to be built, but there is no real proof or photographs to bear this out.
Until then, this will remain fodder for arguments for years to come.
Bill "Newkirk"
If possible type in a link so that we can (hopefully) read the entire article from the ERA website.
The article's not on the ERA website. It IS copyrighted, so please, everyone, do not post it.
Back issues of the BULLETIN are $1.50 each and are available through New York Division-ERA.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I hope there is a map to it.
The article included a hand-drawn map by David Rogoff, who was the New York Division's subway historian from the beginning of the Bulletin in 1958 until his death in 1969.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
SHOW US THE PROFF!
Ok I will E-Mail it to you
Hey, I remember that PROFF business... That was a while ago...
-Robert King
Hey, I remember that PROFF business... That was a while ago... Heh! It was VERY funny!
Mystery solved. The station is here...
This only proves that there was an article about it. Are there photos that actually prove the existence?
There's the rub ... alas, that's what gives 76th its "X-Files" smell. Chances are it exists as a shell and there's probably pillars and posts, just like many other "pre-builds" for the second system. Question is, where's the PROFF? Doo-de-le-doo-doo-doo-doo ... Muldaur? Are you "out there?" Unless someone breaks concrete like the dudes that took photos of the "non-existent" Chicago freight tunnels, (a secret project of Illinois Bell without even the DALEYS knowing it was there) then we'll never know for sure and we'll be gassing off on this for years. SOMEBODY, Bust some asphalt and post the proff! :)
Time to break out the jackhammers and/or battering ram.
Bring a crew, let's be freaking DONE with this once and for all. Where the hell is sEvEn (heh, I smell shrinkage) the expert on cavernous trespassing and daring all hell out of OTHERS to do it? Heh. If anyone can find the lid, ofay or kilo that'll get people into a manhole to grok it out, the better. We may not be from Missouri, but "show us da money ..."
If there's a 76 St, there's some basket crazy enough to do a Ghostbusters II style Con Ed impersonation while they drag a disel air compressor and some 2 inch hose and hammers to settle this once and for all. The rest of you are pussies. Show us your stones if I lie. :)
seven said he would ages ago, but i know of no proff (LOL!) (oi vey) that he did.
I guess i'll have to gather the usual gang of urban spelunkers to go look into this sometime. I'd be surprised if it's there. the only other urban legand tunnel i know of in NYC is the auto tunnel provision supposidley built under chrystie st. it is the same as this 76th street legand: people say it is there, but no one has any photos of it.
This is a big town, and i can think of at least a dozen people i know actively poking around the underground - none of them can say either way if either of the above exists or not.
so seven, in the off chance your reading this, maybe we need to call up the staten island sledge hammer crew?
-Joe
http://ltvsquad.com
Woah! What do you know about the Chrystie Street auto tunnel? It's included in one of the 2nd Avenue subway planning documents.
WHAT IN THE BLUE HELL?
huh. go figure. that's interesting, to say the least. i've only heard tidbits here and there that it exists and is perhaps an 80x80 foot chamber - this is the first time i've seen it on any sort of map though...
looks like i got to get out my hard hat...
Until I saw your post, that map was the only reference I had ever seen to such a beast.
Considering that LOMEX was to be elevated around there, I'm not sure why anything would have been built underground in any case.
I haven't gotten around to doing much homework on this, but the lomex provision is mentioned here:
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/lower-manhattan/
specifically in the following paragraph:
"Durng this time, one small portion of the Lower Manhattan Expressway was actually constructed. The approach ("undercrossing") to the expressway at Chrystie and Broome Streets was built in 1962 at a cost of $941,000. The rationale for the construction of this 80-foot-by-80 foot segment was pre-emptive: otherwise, the subway would have to be dug up again to accommodate road construction."
the original proposal was for a viaduct roadway, but when that came up against community opposition, the tunnel idea was floated...
Yep. I actually just asked Steve Anderson (the nycroads.com guy) in person about it yesterday, and he said just that.
For the last time:
Any previously built but never used underground station can easily be verified by combing through the documents which would surely exist as to it's construction/cost/dimensions. You can't build a subway station, then lose all evidence that it was actually built. Every other built-but-never-used underground subway station have been proven to exist even if they were never photographed (Roosevelt Ave upper level, S4th St, etc).
Every other built-but-never-used underground subway station have been proven to exist even if they were never photographed (Roosevelt Ave upper level, S4th St, etc).
BTW, I have actually seen photos of the abandoned Roosevelt Ave station at a NRHS-LIST slide show a few months ago. It's fully tiled, I believe with a blue band along the ceiling, and little IND "Roosevelt" tiles like all other IND stations. The tiles were very dirty, but seemed to be in good shape. It was pretty amazing. I have never seen another photo before that or since. It was a pretty good show, it had all kind of "secret" places in the subway.
Hmm, such a pity it is being wasted...
The Roosevelt terminal station is rather interesting... at one time the Transit Museum took a field trip there so a number of us here have seen it. I took some pictures but did not have one of my good cameras (or high speed film) so they didn't turn out very well, although I did post one shot (of the name in the tiles) here a couple of years ago. Mark Feinman did some videotaping on that same trip which came out much better.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Roosevelt terminal station is rather interesting... at one time the Transit Museum took a field trip there so a number of us here have seen it.
That must have been an interesting tour. I took a similar tour like that once that included the 18th St Station, 91st St Station, Brooklyn Bridge and 14th Street Local Platforms, and City Hall. It was very interesting, and have gotten some good photos at all of those stations.
Roosevelt would have been one that I would have really loved to go on. I was booked to go on a tour of Worth St and some other "abandoned areas" once, but had an emergency that day and had to give up going. Soon after that the Transit Museum stopped doing those kind of tours. I really miss them, I don't know why they don't do it anymore.
Prior to 9/11, paranoia. After 9/11, justifiable paranoia.
-Hank
Prior to 9/11, paranoia. After 9/11, justifiable paranoia.
Yeah, and it is unfortunate. Even though it was dead before 9/11, I guess now it is totally dead to annex the old City Hall station as a part of the Transit Museum. It's too bad though, I'm happy I was able to go on the few tours that I did with the TM. Some people won't even get the chance to do that. There was nothing like stepping out onto the platform at City Hall for the first time, or even 18th St after seeing it out the windows for years before that.
City Hall is a real gem, and it's a shame that more people can't enjoy it. I hope they will do something at City Hall on October 27, 2004, after all, the station....and the subway turns 100.
Here are still images from the video I took on the "Routes Not Built" Tour that went to the never-used Roosevelt Avenue terminal.
A good monitor will help here as the images are, as you would imagine, dark.
It does look much better on the video though.
--Mark
Thanks.....very interesting.
Where is the PROFF????
There is no proof for 76th, we just got of on a tangent about other abandoned stations.
The NYC Department of Transportation would be the agency to contact regarding what, if anything is under 76th & Pitkin. Has anybody here ever written to the NYCDOT or MTA/NYCT regarding this endless mystery?
I would think that if there was THAT much remaining at 76th St, that it would have to be inspected once in a while to make sure that whatever is above it doesn't cave in (like the 2nd Ave subway tunnel under Chinatown, inspected every 2 weeks). That would mean that someone has to go in there. I think this is just an urban legend, but one that's a great deal of fun to discuss.
--Mark
I think this is just an urban legend, but one that's a great deal of fun to discuss.
Unfortunately, I think you are right. And it is fun to discuss.....it's the same reason I used to love Unsolved Mysteries, when they talked about ghosts, Bermuda Triangle, etc. It's fun thinking that it may be there....becacuse just like no one can actually prove that it is there, no one can absolutely say it's not there. ALthough I feel that at some point they would have had to dig down there for something whether it be sewer work, or whatever. But who knows, maybe it is there.
When this article in the Bulletin was published last year there was a long thread here about it, so I'm surprised nobody has made reference to last year's discussion. It included (and I'm writing from memory here since I'm at work and the article is at home) second hand accounts from individuals who claimed to have seen it, descriptions of the board at Euclid, and how the station is supposed to be laid out. A track plan was also included, (if I remember correctly) that was taken from David Rogoff's 1966 IND track map drawn for an ERA (NY Division?) fan trip and is known to many rail fans. There was only a discussion of this station and no proof positive in this article, such as photos, Board of Transportation documents pertaining to the section's actual construction (as opposed to track blueprints, bid books, etc).
It may not be proof. But it casts doubt on some arguement that it's not being there at all.
No it doesn't. Until we see a document that depicts it was actually constructed (which surely would exist had it been built) then it's safe to say that no such station was built.
You can't dig a subway tunnel and station, then completely lose all evidence to that fact.
Sounds like fodder for "In Search Of" with Leonard Nimoy - of course that's off the air now...
Don't tell me you've spent Halloween in a pumpkin patch waiting for him.:-)
The station is here...
(With link this time.)
"Ghost Station" Sodoor
That isn't a picture of 76 Street. It is not even the NYC Subway. It is an abandoned station on a subway somewhere in Russia. Did you post the wrong site?
I don't get it?
Is joke, comrade.
That's what I figured, but I wasn't sure....
Comrade, jokes like that send you to Siberia!
Or to a psychiatric ward.
Maybe there is a psychiatric ward in Siberia.
Maybe, but there are labor camps. At one time, 35 of my father's relatives were sent to Siberia. His father died there.
"Comrade, jokes like that send you to Siberia! "
And he will build a SUBWAY line there too!
: ) Elias
No, that was Outer Mongolia...
There is a current thread about the Mongolian subway on The Other Side of the Tracks, where I posted the information that the name of the ghost station (Sodoor) is a give-away that the whole thing is a joke. Sodor is the name of the imaginary island where the Thomas the Tank Engine stories take place.....
Fytton.
Took the Surfliner from LA to San Diego yesterday morning. Rode Business Class for an additional $12, which is an car identical to the coaches but you get a free snack (in this case, soda or juice, tortilla chips, salsa, crackers, cheese spread, cookies, and a dried fruit and nut combo) from the attendant.
The train was clean and on time, the attendant and conductor were courteous, and the ride relatively smooth. A few minutes after departing LAX we passed a former roundhouse with turntable and pit and on one of the pit tracks was a freshly painted Sante Fe steamer (I couldn't find my pen so I couldn't record the number) with two men working on it. Anyone know if this loco is used on fan trips or is it just a static display?
It takes about a half hour to leave the industrial backyards of Los Angeles before moving into more scenic territory. Some very attractive stations along the way, done in Mission style. I don't know if these are the original stations spruced up or newer stations built to resemble the old style. The San Diego station is magnificent. LA Union Terminal was neat to see but kinda sad - a large part of the terminal where the former ticket counters and waiting area is located was closed off and the area used only on special occassions for parties. You can see how in its heyday this was a busy, busy place. Not nearly as busy as GCT, Penn, or St. Louis Union Station in their heydays, but still, a busy place.
Station staff at LAX was very helpful, offering to check our luggage before I could ask. We arrived two hours early at LAX and security was almost nonexistent. I had no problems heading up to the tracks (no one stopped me and asked to see my ticket)to see some Metrolink trains and the Coast Starlight. While on the platform watching an earlier Surfliner depart for San Diego, the baggage handler pulled up in a luggage cart, looked at me for a second, and said, "didn't I check your bags for a later train?" Nice fellow indeed!
The train was had relatively few passengers and there was plenty of room to move around. I headed up to the snack car to see what was available and what did they offer but Krispy Kreme doughnuts! (in addition to the usual bill of fare) Of course, I had to pick up a package to share with my wife . After devouring Homer's Favorite Snack I broke out the laptop and did some work while glancing out the window every minute or so to take in the views.
About 45 minutes after departure we could see the Pacific Ocean and shortly thereafter we were within spitting distance of it. Fun!! Nearing Camp Pendleton we saw in the water a Navy ship - perhaps a Destroyer Escort class - doing maneuvers. Everyone on the beach ignored the train; I guess there are so many, between Amtrak and Metrolink, that no one pays attention.
Arrived in San Diego after passing through a couple of slow order zones. Turns out our luggage was put on the earlier train and held in the baggage control area. Watched a couple of trolleys pull in and out of the station while walking to the cab for the ride to the hotel.
All in all, a lot more fun than flying between the two cities!
I enjoyed that are also when I was there. It's a real pretty place! They must have had the railfan in mind when they made that line. WHere else can you see a rail line traveling right along the ocean. (Not too many). THe stations there are maintained beautifuly also.
The steamer you saw was the Santa Fe 3751. It will beused this year from LA to the Grand Canyon for the NRHS convention.
As for the stations along the line, the Fullerton station IS the original building -- it houses the operation center for trainweb.com upstairs! Santa Ana station (Santa Ana Regional Transportation Center) was built in the 1980's...used as "Salinas" in the movie "Rain Main". San Juan Capistrano station is the original as well.
Nobody pays attention to the trains because, yes, there are so many of them. I live all of 150' from the line about two minutes after it leabves Santa Ana (right where it goes under the 55 Freeway) and we have about 22 Amtraks, 68 Metrolinks, and half a dozen BNSF freights -- plus the local that comes down to the industrial area across the tracks from my place. *I* don't even bother checking the trains from 150' away!!
Forgot to mention, those aren't really "slow orders" justotu of SanDiego -- there is a permanent 30mile an hour zone right at the bottom of Miramar Hill (CP Elvira) as the lien snakes around the back of an industrial park. Within that 30 mile an hour zone, some bums set a bridge on fire earlier this year, and it is being rebuilt little by little -- but that slowdown is normal.
The tracks used to go straight there until the late 1960's -- Santa Fe engineers used to come down that hill with F7 sets and older coaches liek there was no tomorrow and then keep the speed up until Old Town. Then they crept all the way into the station from there. Once the line was rebuilt for AT&SF/SD Trolley, the heavy rail got a higher speed limit.
If you're wondering why the Trolley dips below surface level at the one point (on the land side of the train)...it's because their long term planning envisioned a branch line to the airport and possibly on to Point Loma area -- and the junction with the "mainline" would be a subterranian affair, as the line would go UNDER the San Dieg Airport runways to get to the terminal!
I rode that same stretch between Los Angeles and San Diego last march...actually, I took Amtrak from LA to Oceanside, and then I changed to San Diego's Coaster commuter trains, just to railfan. I loved the parts that ran along the beach right next to the ocean. But my favorite stretch is just north of San Diego where the track turns inland, and goes behind a mountain, to run along the edge of a very deep green and wooded valley. It was beautiful scenery. I also love San Diego's Santa Fe Depot because you can watch Coaster, Amtrak, and San Diego Trolley trains all in one spot.
Mark
<< I took Amtrak from LA to Oceanside, and then I changed to San Diego's Coaster commuter trains, just to railfan. >>
I believe you can take the Coaster north to Oceanside and then change to the Metrolink up to LA. Sort of like riding SEPTA from Philly to NYC and transferring to PATH along the way. Given that California subsidizes part of the Amtrak ride, though, it really isn't worth riding the commuter rail and changing trains, particularly with two large suitcases that won't fit into an overhead space.
Originally I had wanted to ride LA's Metro Link to Oceanside, and then the Coaster to San Diego. I didn't have much luggage, so that wasn't a problem, but the scheduling of the two trains isn't coordinated at all. I had to be in San Diego by mid-morning, and using the Metro Link wouldn't have gotten me there in time. So I took Amtrak to Oceanside, instead.
Fortunately, even though the two systems aren't coordinated as SEPTA and NJT are between Philadelphia and New York, Amtrak is fairly cheap in CA. My ticket was only $12 I think...another difference between trains on the two coasts.
Mark
I dunno about Amtrak being cheap -- maybe relatively cheap compared with the NEC.
The far eons ago, when AT&SF ran the San Diegans -- $4.04 one way from LA to San Diego, or $7.50 round trip.
About three years ago Amtrak Santa Ana to San Diego round trip $24.00.
Last year: #36.00.
This year $38.00
And I went down and back March 30th -- day ebfore Easter, and it was up to $44.00 for the 170 mile round trip from Santa Ana to San Diego!!!!!!!!! They charge more on certain days I guess.
I'm comparing it to a round-trip ticket from Philadelphia to New York, which is much more expensive. I'm not sure of the numbers, since I always take SEPTA and NJT to save money.
Mark
I don't know if these are the original stations spruced up or newer stations built to resemble the old style.
The last time I was there Carlsbad Village had a brand new station next to or across the street from the original one (a cool old building, although it looked like it needed work) I wonder if it's still there, or if they restored the old building) I guess it was about 5-6 years since I've been there.
The old building is still there...but it is a private business (I forget what though).
The new station was built to accomodate only the Coaster commuter trains.
Good thing you didn't ride on 6/20 -- the old crappy Amfleet/Horizon/Heritage trainset was out!!!
It had F59PHI 461, Heritage Baggage 1213, an Amfleet Business Class car, Heritage DOME CAR (!!) 10031, a Horizon coach, two Amfleet coaches, and ex-Metroliner cab car 9635. Saw it heading north out of Oceanside around 10:00 a.m. or so, and again in San Diego around 6 p.m.
I took a trip last Dec. from San Juan Capistrano to San Diego on the Amtrak Surfliner. The view was spectacular. The Condutors friendly and corteous. Took all the pictures I wanted. The Coaster was running that M-K built F-40 ( Trains magazine for details ) and I had just bought my scanner and ear piece. What more could a Railfan ask for besides the cab-car railfan seat or an actual cab ride heading back North?! The time-share I had was right across the Pacific Coast Highway from the beach and the railroad tracks. Talk about Heaven. Giggle Giggle LOL LOL
The time-share I had was right across the Pacific Coast Highway from the beach and the railroad tracks. Talk about Heaven. Giggle Giggle LOL LOL
I know. It's like railfan's heaven over there. Where else can you take in the beautiful scenery while waiting trackside for the trains! ANd when you are tired of the trains, head to the ocean!
It was a blast in Dana Point/San Juan Capistrano area. Just far enough from L.A. and at trackside to boot. I recomend this area to any railfan. Now if only I could get a commuter rail line started in the Phoenix metro area ( See letter to Railroad & Railfan Magazine Aug. Edtion) Regards Paul B. Stevens AKA trains61
Guess you don't realize that every toilet and every street sewer in Orange County empties out into the ocean. I don't care if it goes out five miles in a pipe, the tides bring it right back in....and it doesn't matter what kind of treatment they give it, I know what it started as.
The beaches in Orange County are ALWAYS being closed due to high bacteria count. That right there says they aren't teating the pee, poop and street runoff properly. I won't go any further than the railroad tracks, thank you!
The majority of subway trips are no longer to work. Only 44.1% in 2000, down from 54.5% in 1990.
Rides to work increased 6.7% in that decade, non-work rides increased 62%.
40% of Metrocard "users" use unlimited passes. If that is literally true, it means that a far greater percentage of rides is with unlimited passes, since the users of the unlimiteds take more rides.
Full article at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/20/nyregion/20TRAN.html.
Fabulous.
It means that the transit system is now part of New Yorkers' daily lives. It is the auto of choice for all purposes.
BTW, if you throw in LI Bus, PATH, NJ Transit, LIRR, Metro-North, Amtrak, Greyhound, and Peter Pan (in other words, any service bringing people into NYC city limits), the total ridership probably climbs to close to 8 million a day.
(Most trips non-work).
I'm surprised at that finding, and I'll tell you why. According to another set of statistics, transit riders are slightly MORE likely to own cars than the average New York City resident!
Trawling around the NYCT outlook express folders during a slow day, I came upon a ton of information published by "public affairs," presumably official info in response to questions. On file was a spreadsheet of the characterisics of NYCT riders called 1999 Demographics," with age, income, education, employment, etc. This was presumably based on a survey of subway riders -- perhaps the same survey as the number of trips by type.
Anyway, my former mates at City Planning just released the NYC data based on the 2000 Census long form, so I crossed the two where possible into a new spreadsheet. I can send it in if Dave wants to put it on the site (excel).
Why the finding on auto ownership and transit? A below average share of transit riders have incomes of over $75,000, but also a below average share have incomes of under $15,000. Most transit workers are employed, half of New Yorkers over age 16 are not. So there seems to be a whole population hanging out in the housing project or nursing home that neither has a car nor uses transit.
When I was growing p in the Bronx my father had an old Peuguot 403 (1959 model, with a sunroof!) -but he barely used it, except for excursions on the weekend. For serious shopping trips to department stores, we used it. Truthfully, though, if you discount leisure trips to the country, if that car was driven 10 miles a week, it was a lot.
(When I was growing p in the Bronx my father had an old Peuguot 403 (1959 model, with a sunroof!) -but he barely used it, except for excursions on the weekend. For serious shopping trips to department stores, we used it. Truthfully, though, if you discount leisure trips to the country, if that car was driven 10 miles a week, it was a lot.)
We use our car the same way. The census data shows that most New Yorkers who are neither poor nor elderly do get a car once they are married with kids. But they use it the way we do, and they only have one instead of two, a substantial savings. If rental cars were less expensive and more available for out of town and other non-transit trips, I'd bet car ownership would drop, and transit would pick up even more non-commute local trips.
I agree.
As soon as I moved to NYC, I got rid of my car. I went everywhere by subway, and only by subway, never by bus.
If I wanted to go on vacation, I rented a car for a week or two, which was far cheaper than owning a car.
When I moved out of the city, I bought a car.
Elias
If rental cars were less expensive and more available for out of town and other non-transit trips, I'd bet car ownership would drop, and transit would pick up even more
Yes, indeed. If the great majority had quick, easy, cheap access to a good, clean rental car, I suspect the number of cars parked on the street would noticeably drop.
The cost of renting a car in NY is surreal. There are times when it's cheaper to fly someplace else, rent a car there, and drive back. You'd think competition would have invented something considerably cheaper.
>>You'd think competition <<
Only if you believe the propaganda. In fact most rental car co's have VERY cheap weekend rates all over the US which are not applicable in the NY metro area because so many people already use the system rather than own, insure, park. And as to competition think "cartel".
In fact most rental car co's have VERY cheap weekend rates all over the US which are not applicable in the NY metro area because so many people already use the system rather than own, insure, park. And as to competition think "cartel".
In fact, in the NYC area weekends rather than weekdays are the busy times for car rentals. That's precisely the opposite than the case in most other parts of the country.
If rental cars were less expensive and more available for out of town and other non-transit trips, I'd bet car ownership would drop, and transit would pick up even more
Yes, indeed. If the great majority had quick, easy, cheap access to a good, clean rental car, I suspect the number of cars parked on the street would noticeably drop.
The cost of renting a car in NY is surreal. There are times when it's cheaper to fly someplace else, rent a car there, and drive back. You'd think competition would have invented something considerably cheaper.
Which is precisely the idea behind ZipCar (see website of the same name) which has just started in NYC. You essentially sign up for a set number of hours of usage per month of a specific car (Toyota Prius and the like) that is stabled at your local garage, one per location. You pay a membership fee plus a per-mile cost, and there's no paperwork -- you just wave your magnetic card at the windshield and it unlocks for you.
I was skeptical. Friend of mine just joined and is RAVING about it.
Now here's a plan for some smart automaker (say, Honda) to subsidize for the marketing. And I bet a lot of the people who use their car once a week for 100 mi or less would come out ahead, certainly in time if not in $$$.
For what it's worth ....
Now here's a plan for some smart automaker (say, Honda) to subsidize for the marketing.
Wrong. Less cars on the road = less car sales. These old clunkers that go 100 mi/week will rust out at some stage, and replacements will be bought. Automakers need to come out against the zipcar to preserve their market for what is essentially a disposable product. They also need to ensure that their cars do rust out. For example, GM stopped making Trans Sport SUV's out of that plastic carbon-fibre composite because they were too durable, and people were hanging onto them rather than scrapping them.
I agree that zipcar is a good idea, but I don't see the Automakers going after it. The economies of scale in manufacturing many cars of the same type (as in a zipcar type market) isn't really enough to justify the losses in sale of high-end, personalized vehicles.
AEM7
Wrong. Less cars on the road = less car sales. These old clunkers that go 100 mi/week will rust out at some stage, and replacements will be bought.
Yeah, but my bet is Zipcar users don't stay NYC residents for life. And Honda won't ever sell replacement cars for all those old clunkers anyway. Honda sells one car to Zipcar and gets a whole bunch of people to testdrive it. Good marketing, to me.
For example, GM stopped making Trans Sport SUV's out of that plastic carbon-fibre composite because they were too durable, and people were hanging onto them rather than scrapping them.
Dunno why they dropped the plastic construction for the follow-on minivan. But Saturns are built the same way, and will continue to be. They even did a VERY expensive conversion of a conventional all-steel-paneled Opel platform to make the LS2 plastic-paneled.
The economies of scale in manufacturing many cars of the same type (as in a zipcar type market)
I dunno, seems to work for Ford as the last remaining maker of RWD sedans -- they even developed a LWB Crown Vic just for taxis!
It's all hypothetical, but as I said, I was surprised by my friend's rave review of ZipCar. Curious to see if it lasts.
Not surprising.
Even if you have a car and live in Manhattan, you're not necessarily going to use the car to go to midtown, Lincoln Center, etc. It's a lot cheaper to take the subway that to park when you get there, and often quicker, or at least not much slower.
Middle to upper income people with cars use them for the trips out of the city or to those out of the way places in the city that aren't quick to get to with transit, and where parking is available, preferably for free, at the destination.
"But more significantly, it shows that the city seems to be in the midst of a return to the kind of relationship it had with mass transit several decades ago, before the Robert Moses era and the rise of the automobile."
Yay!!! So let's build some more Subway Lines!
AMEN!
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/20/nyregion/20BLOC.html
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?brd=1840
The Times article says less about the reasons for opposition, mentioning only historic preservation.
The latter (Villager) article gets more to the point of what I have personally heard as the actual NIMBY fears: loss of business during the construction period, and alleged "scum from New Jersey".
This has nothing to do, of course with crowds or "scum" or anything that is not already there.
This is a pissing contest between the PA and local politicians who felt they weren't consulted in the process leading up to station construction. Unlike larger projects, like AirTrain, which required hearings and political massaging, this project is a no-brainer affecting very few people in the neighborhood directly. 300 people is nothing in a Manhattan neighborhood. The pols saw a photo-opportunity. The rest is pure BS.
It would have been nice if the PA had consulted formally with lots of people beforehand - to make sure everyone who needs a pacifier gets one. But the PA has a lot on its plate now, and it is understandable that this didn't get enough PR attention.
The sensible thing to do now is to try to keep opinion leaders involved and informed, and ram through construction as quickly as possible, trying to minimize the hassle whenever possible.
As to the demonstrators - they'll get over it.
I personally know people who are not at all in politics who are very upset. Not because they haven't been consulted, but because:
- They truly fear lost business.
- They are truly bothered by very rambunctious people from NJ and don't want more of them.
This doesn't mean that their concerns should overwhelm the greater good of the city, or even that their fears will be realized if the new entrances are built, but they are not making this up.
They are truly bothered by very rambunctious people from NJ and don't want more of them.
This is just a xenophobic argument. If these people were concerned about New Jerseyans coming to local bars, they should have never moved to an area near a PATH station or one whose zoning allowed establishments to serve alcohol. All of those things (New Jersey, PATH, the bars) were there before they moved in.
In addition, this conflicts with the loss of business argument. Wouldn't more people lead to more business?
I agree with Ron. They should have held public meetings if only to let the anencephalics and their constituency to make believe that they actually know what they're talking about and have some influence.
Wouldn't more people lead to more business?
Not necessarily. It depends on the demographics of the people being drawn to the area and the nature of the businesses there. One rowdy bar opens up in an area with more sedate businesses (be they local shops, a neighborhood grocery, a deli, or whatever) and business will fall off dramatically for the other stores because not only will the patrons of the bar not be customers of the other businesses, their rowdy behavior during the evening hours will tend to drive the other businesses' customers away and the mess that remains in the morning will also discourage people from coming to the area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is true, but the block on which the station entrance is located has contained a semi-rowdy bar and a 24 hour deli for years, along with a number of residences. Litter has always been a problem, but no one's demonstrated against it.
IMHO, it's also a bit ironic to remember that the station was closed late nights and weekends until the late 80's, when PATH opened it 24/7 in response to complaints from this same community.
"This is true, but the block on which the station entrance is located has contained a semi-rowdy bar and a 24 hour deli for years"
Exactly the point of the NIMBYs. Christopher west of Hudson is much less peaceful than Christopher east of Hudson. Similarly, 6th Ave from 8th to 9th is much less peaceful than Christopher west of 6th. They want to keep it that way.
Adding to the political nature of all of this is the fact that many of the locals are gay and are occasionally harassed, sometimes seriously, by the visitors from across the river.
"- They are truly bothered by very rambunctious people from NJ and don't want more of them"
There's not much one can do about ignorance and prejudice (not to mention blatantly juvenile attitude, which that quote represents)- about the best you can manage is to make sure policy isn't decided that way.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem with quality-of-life issues (there might be) at that street corner. If so, the appropriate response is to meet with the NYPD precinct commander or CPOP (community policing officer) and discuss a focused response: a specific project which will deploy officers and undercovers to arrest trespassers and loiterers, frisk people as needed, check ID's, confiscate drugs etc. One concession the Port Authority can easily make is to assign a PA patrol unit to monitor the Christopher Street station during late hours. The officers can encourage loiterers to move along and get off the street, can make arrests for disorderly conduct or issue summonses for open alcohol containers, and, most importantly, be visible to the local residents as a sign that the PA is addressing their concerns.
"and alleged "scum from New Jersey""
Somehow, I don't think that the scum comes from the New Jersey side.
Elias
And even if it does, it's going to be there no matter how many entrances to the stations there are.
The PA should take the opportunity to close this and the 9th St. station, then. Since there is clear, broad community opposition in the Village to having PATH there, and especially since City Councilwomen Christine Quinn, Assemblywoman Deborah Glick, State Senator Tom Duane and Congressman Jerrold Nadler obviously support such a thing. I'd put signs up in the stations saying just this.
I'm certain the above-mentioned politicians want to be known as anti-transit. I think we can all say they would also support shutting down all subway stations in the Village too. No doubt they want to ban busses too. They want Greenwich Village to be a public-transit-free zone!
Support Jerrold Nadler's plan to shut down the W 4th St. Station!
Cool! While we're at it, we should cancel PATH's new WTC station, and only allow one train per hour to stop at Canal Street. That should reduce the crowds!
:0)
Ah, but what you have here are selective NIMBYs. They want transit that allows them to get where they want to go, but not transit that allows others to get to the West Village.
Of course, the Village residents who work in NJ and can't get into the PATH stations in the morning because of the crowds coming out are the silent ones who aren't making a fuss.
As always, the people who oppose it make more noise than the ones who are helped.
That's why you threaten a closure, get these people out of the woodwork.
"Due to the crowd levels and insufficient methods of ingress and egress and the hazards they pose, the Christopher and 9th street stations will be closed. Customers are urged to use 14th street station instead."
Post a few of these on pillars in the stations and suddenly everyone will be writing their local Congressman.
14th St. is no better. One exit stairway just like the others. 23rd is even worse with the down-up exit stairs. Make everyone use 33rd, at least the platforms there have two exits already. :)
There are some extremely intoxicated people hanging around the PATH entrances on Friday and Saturday nights. And there is lots of evidence that they are visiting the area and then eventually use the PATH to go home (and not to 14th St either).
However, it is hard to believe that more entrances will mean more such people. And as another posting said, the appropriate response is police activity.
What is true is that the blocks with the proposed entrances are much more peaceful and bar-free than the areas closer to the current entrances. So the delightful visitors may spread out over some currently more peaceful areas.
So close the new entrances at night. The excessive crowding is only during rush hours, no? The current entrances will suffice at night.
A very sensible answer.
Yes, extraordinarily sensible. You design the non-rush closures to be immediately usable in an emergency, however.
As it is, the crowding at the two stations is extremely dangerous. Were there a panic, people would likely be crushed to death. If additional exits are not built, closing the stations altogether becomes necessary. I wonder what the PA's liability would be.
In America, it often requires a death (often more than one) for public authorities to do the right thing.
In general, I don't like the idea of part-time entrances and exits. If I had it my way, all of the subway's part-time entrances would be converted to full-time unattended entrances.
But that assumes that people appreciate full-time entrances. Usually, that's a reasonable assumption, I think. Here it appears to fail. Fortunately, the primary purpose of the proposed entrances can be satisfied by keeping them open only a few hours of the day.
A very sensible answer. According to the Villager in an earlier article someone asked the PA spokesman if they could close the extra entrances at night and he said he didn't think so.
Maybe that will end up as the compromise position.
We have the exact same problem with drunks in Sea Cliff, with no transit nearby but 4 bars. It is the alcohol and the bars that is the problem. There should be patrol for loitering, and those who are making noise will be arrested and fined $600. In the event of vandalism, a fine of $2000 and 10 days in jail should teach 'em.
Reminder: Tuesday night we're doing a Field Trip from 14th & 8th.
You can also ride with me from Main Street Flushing at 4 PM. I'll be taking the first Red Bird after 4 PM.
Please e-mail me if you indend to be there so I will look out for you.
Mr rt__:^)
This Friday, that's tommorow, the ERA theme is PCCs.
If you want to get in free say your're the guest of David Ross,
he is very BIG, so that would be a bad idea :-(
Seriously $5 will get you in. First timers are free, but they check their video tapes so don't lie.
Being very serious, I love PCCs so I'll be there as will many of your friends from SubTalk.
Mr rt__:^)
[If you want to get in free say your're the guest of David Ross]
Now I'm wise to you guys!!! I will be doing door duty tomorrow night, so have your $5 ready (unless you convince me you're my guest)! Of course, the best way to get in is to sign up and become an ERA-NY Division member. I will have applications with me!
You're a good man Charlie Brown ! And yes Sid will be at the door. He'll recognize me right away so I'll have to pay :-(
P.S. Also note the use of cell phones and the recording of noises from the audience are strickly forbidden, well the former is true anyway.
Mr rt
>>>...noises from the audience ...<<<
PLEASE elaborate.
Peace,
ANDEE
Air compressor noises, PCC's screeching through curves, etc. You get the idea...
You only do air compressor noises when Baltimore or Los Angeles PCC's are on the screen - and no noises for all-electrics.
Trust me they will improvise.
And if "Steve-8 Ave" catches wind and comes out for the slide show, you only have yourselves to blame. :)
LOL
That's OK. I only rode on them in San Francisco in 1981, but I know PCCs sound entirely different than R-1/9s. Now if they were to show R-1/9 slides, well........
Heh. Still awake, still treading water ... FINALLY the code is coming together among the beta testers and we've got "oooooo! It don't do dat anymore!" Oh happy days! I might soon have the time to REALLY shoot the sheet here again like I did a few months ago when we weren't writing new code.
Yeah, you'd be a FREAKING MENACE ... between the sound effects and your INSISTING on drawing a pentatonic scale and MAKING the speeds fit dat jazz, you'd be a ROYAL pain in the butt. The trolley folks will never know how lucky they are! Moo. :)
All we'd need would be for Heypaul to show up with his gas grill.:-)
Won't need gas, that sheet music will suffice. :)
Boston and the old Brooklyn cars too.
Oh, I know someone out there can make noises the MG blower and the line breaker make when the accellerator gets nailed. Of course the super resillient wheel noise is the most popular to make when fantasy kicks in - like on ATM lines. LOL.
I see guys do this all the time at the meets... :-)
I think he means that Baltimore and LA replaced the PC-2
compressor which is driven from the MG shaft with a more
traditional compressor such as a DH-10. The PC-2 compressor
doesn't really make a sound, as such, distinguishable from the MG.
I guess I need to mention that both BTC and LARy refitted their cars (all air-electrics) with standard air compressors, eliminating the PC1 and PC2 MG shaft compressors. BTC did it first, LARy got the plans from BTC.
I wasn't even trying to be serious.
If I came, could I make my all-electric car noises?
"kloongk" (actuator)
"PCHAWK" (line breaker)
"SQQQQQQQQQOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRrrrrrrOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEE"
Seriously now, the show tonight is Joe Siatta's slides? I'd would've like to come, but I have a 20 year reunion of sorts to go to at CBGB's tonight. Some of these guys I haven't seen since the early 80's. Conflicts...
Enjoy the show!
Envy strikes!!! Since I'm in Charm City (aka Baltimore) and it's currently 8:25 PM, I'm gonna miss it.
Somebody's gotta invent the Transporter (see STOS)!! It will do wonders for the railfan. We can visit all the systems that are too far to see easily. See all the folks we've e-mailed, all over the planet.
The only problem is that would eliminate the need for having rail systems in the first place, wouldn't it?
-Robert King
Not really, we keep it to ourselves. Same with the Way-Bak machine.
The one thing is we gotta do is keep both out of the hands of the gobbamint. They would screw it up big time.
I see, scary if you ask me. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Could be VERSE ... Unca Steve doing his whirring noises, "tcchhh-kssss" not realizing that PCC's are different from Arnines. Heh. And ya wonder why we pick holidays to visit when we KNOW everybody's blew town to come down and play. Still, Unca BMTman, Heypaul, Unca Harry Beck and Unca Bill were as twisted as WE were and came out to play. There are "reformed foamers" among us who have somehow gotten over the sound effects bit, and are capable of being FUN for a crew instead of an irritant. :)
The PCC was developed in New York City (not San Antonio).
Sorry, I can't make it tomorrow. Too far of a drive from DC, unless Acela Express can get me a free ride.
Is it a slide show or something?
-Robert King
Yes, from Joe Saitta's vast collection of NYC, many US cities & Europe too.
Does ERA have a Website?
Is there a sample of thier newsletter?
Where can I Join?
Elias
In answer to Thurston's comments: I'm not that big :-), but I am cheap, and Sid will have his hands full trying to keep me from collecting the $5 admission fee from EVERYONE (just kidding).
ERA's website is www.electricrailroaders.org.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I think I'll bite the bullet and join this time around. Just try getting $5 from me then!!
I'll take a wait & see position. I'll be joing the li'l guys this
evening and will see what the habitude is like. I acquiscented from
the ERA, 3 decades ago. We will see if their deportment has improved
in the past thirty years. From other posts I read, it's the same
twaddle, in a different century. So I can plash down a Lincoln on
occasion. I'm a notable squanderer, being mentored by the BMT Man.
;-) Sparky
WHERE is 'there' ?
See Upcoming events:
Presenter this month: Joe Saitta of Traction Slides International
Program: Los Angeles and Washington DC PCC cars of the 1950s. Also Brooklyn, Boston, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and San Francisco. Also, a special feature on the last days of the Newark PCCs and also a feature on PCC cars of Europe.
Meeting: St. John's University (formerly College of Insurance) Auditorium
101 Murray St (bet Greenwich and West)
Please note: very little parking in the area, please arrive by public transportation
Doors open 6:15 PM, meeting begins at 7:15
While not scientific the bus strike seems to be helping V service. At 71 the V does not always start with seats available and now fills up more and more people stay on.
On the way back the heavier load makes it harder to run hot and they seem to be making more connections at 71st with the F.
The problem for the airpline is when you ARE too fat sit down and refuse to budge and the person next to you can not imagine surviving your abundance for the next 5 hours.
A long time ago now (1995, I think, and for me that was a long time ago), I had the pleasure of sitting next to a large Italian lady on an overnight Greyhound trip. This was in England so the company wasn't called Greyhound, it was National Express, but the seat pitch are similar to that on Greyhound. She was really not *that* fat (about 250 lbs), but she was big enough not to fit comfortably into a Greyhound seat.
When I boarded the bus, she was indeed counting on an empty seat and was flopped over both of the seats. So when I showed up she was not exactly amused (and I did choose to sit next to her because of her sexy Italian looks, there being other seats available). I spent the first hour of the trip listening to my CD-player walkman (which in those days was a rarity, especially when you were 15, and I had borrowed it off a friend just for the trip). Initially, she was obnoxious and sort of sagged herself over her seat so that I would be squished towards the isle. She was maybe expecting me to move to some other location. Then she realized about an hour into the trip that I wasn't going to bulge, so she squished herself up against the window. To her surprise, I told her that she didn't have to do that.
And this was when things got interesting. Suffice to say that neither of us got much sleep that night (I had a scholarship interview in London the next day). The outcome of the story was that I got the scholarship, and Carmina and I were good friends for a long time after that. She even wrote me when she moved back to Milan for a while. Too bad I don't know where she is now. Sitting next to a large young lady is not necessary such a bad thing :-)
She was a very hot, very passionate Italian. The problem is that not all large ladies are like that.
AEM7
So how far did you get with her? And I don't mean travel-wise neither!
6441-6445 are testing at gunhill RD on the #5 line
AMTRAK
Its all the worst possible solutions rolled into one. Here they are, sorry about the formatting.
Put Amtrak on a sound economic system, eliminating federal operating subsidies for passenger trains and eliminating services that do not do so. Although he
will mention few specifics, administration sources said Mineta will signaling that some services should be abandoned unless states decide to subsidize their
operation.
Make Amtrak a pure operating company rather than an owner of track.
Introduce "managed competition" by allowing some routes to be operated under franchise by a non-Amtrak entity "after a careful process overseen by the
Federal Railroad Administration." In addition, other services might be contracted out, including reservations, food service and equipment maintenance. A senior
official said the administration would work with unions and freight railroads to solve any concerns. "This is not a declaration of war on the unions," the official
said.
The federal government would retain a role in providing some of the capital costs of passenger train service, but no operating subsidies. States would be
expected to pick up those costs under new "partnerships." New service, including new high-speed rail service, would be the responsibility of states or
combinations of states.
Create a "partnership" to own the Boston-Washington "Northeast Corridor." This would be a long-term transition with states and the users of the corridor -
commuter lines and freight railroads - having time to work out a proper solution. The Northeast Corridor is the only significant portion of track owned by
Amtrak, with most other trains operating over the tracks of freight railroads.
In short, the national passenger system will only run "profitable" routes as part of state financed long distance commuter systems with the NEC run by commuter and freight railroads. Yippie.
Oh, please note that this is just an initial preliminary plan that the Secritary of Transportation wasn't even ready to release yet, but was pressured to by a senate committie chair, so there is hope.
Sounds like a good idea to me - after all, look at how well it worked in Britain. They're stacking bodies like cordwood over there ... Maybe Valujet will run the Acela. :)
Yet another reason why I absolutely despise Republicans.
Clinton was President for eight years and didn't do a damn thing to alleviate Amtrak's plight. When both the Republicans and Democrats stop using Amtrak as a political football and start taking measures to do what is good for the American public as a whole that's when Amtrak will become the dependable top notch transportation alternative that it should have been thirty years ago.
I wouldn't blame Bubba for that. After all, one Newt Gingrich ("Mister CSX", look it up) was the one who kept cutting back the funding and making more and more demands of less and less railroad.
>>Yet another reason why I absolutely despise Republicans<<
Your Liberal Democrat scumbags aren't any better.
Bill "Newkirk"
IMHO, Bush and Mineta have essentially used the "Reform Council" report as a crib sheet when the Senate demanded the Administration state its policy on Amtrak. In other words, Bush and his Cabinet had -- and in essence still have -- NO Amtrak policy that they thought about, debated, and wrote down ahead of time.
This is why I am still cautiously optimistic. I don't think Bush is either strongly pro-Amtrak or anti-Amtrak. It's likely not been on his "radar screen" until now. To the point, he won't lobby for legislation to kill or fix Amtrak, but WILL likely sign such legislation as passes Congress and lands on his desk. IMHO, he's shown with previous bills that he won't fight Congress if he doesn't feel strongly about something. In this case, that's a good thing.
The idea that Amtrak is vital to "homeland security" should be planted in the administration's collective consciousness. The Eisenhower era system of interstate highways was sold on the concept that it was for national "defense". If they can throw 15 billion at the airlines, a couple of billion to save Amtrak isn't out of line.
For once, I agree with Jersey Mike.
Peace,
ANDEE
Its all the worst possible solutions rolled into one. Here they are, sorry about the formatting.
It's not a great start, but beats just tossing more money into the amtrak sinkhole.
Put Amtrak on a sound economic system, eliminating federal operating subsidies for passenger trains and eliminating services that do not do so.
IMHO, a response to amtrak's lousey finances and inability to put any sense into it's route structure.
Although he will mention few specifics, administration sources said Mineta will signaling that some services should be abandoned unless states decide to subsidize their operation.
Good. Ther'es LOTS of deadwood in Amtrak's system. Too many obsolete routes runningservice that make no sense anymore.
Make Amtrak a pure operating company rather than an owner of track.
Good. Amtrak can't run the NEC, they never have been able to, and never will.
Introduce "managed competition" by allowing some routes to be operated under franchise by a non-Amtrak entity "after a careful process overseen by the Federal Railroad Administration." In addition, other services might be contracted out, including reservations, food service and equipment maintenance.
Good. Let's also reform the FRA's backwards and archaic laws regarding equipment, signalling, operations, so that operators can run equipment that is actually viable to run.
A senior official said the administration would work with unions and freight railroads to solve any concerns. "This is not a declaration of war on the unions," the official said.
Screw the unions. The free ride's over, guys. You're gonna have to work for your job now. Welcome to reality.
The federal government would retain a role in providing some of the capital costs of passenger train service, but no operating subsidies. States would be expected to pick up those costs under new "partnerships." New service, including new high-speed rail service, would be the responsibility of states or combinations of states.
Basically, what's been done out west, and has worked, at least in cali. Let's at least set standard high speed rail standards for electrification, etc, so everything interchanges.
Create a "partnership" to own the Boston-Washington "Northeast Corridor." This would be a long-term transition with states and the users of the corridor -
commuter lines and freight railroads - having time to work out a proper solution. The Northeast Corridor is the only significant portion of track owned by Amtrak, with most other trains operating over the tracks of freight railroads.
Good. Amtrak can't run the NEC. Let the states do it.
In short, the national passenger system will only run "profitable" routes as part of state financed long distance commuter systems with the NEC run by commuter and freight railroads. Yippie.
It's hardly great, but it finally breaks the current logjam which doesn't work, and won't work.
IMHO, a response to amtrak's lousey finances and inability to put any sense into it's route structure.
What is wrong with Amtrak's route structure? Its a basic hub and spoke system that strives to serve and connect the travel destinations of this country.
Good. Ther'es LOTS of deadwood in Amtrak's system. Too many obsolete routes runningservice that make no sense anymore.
If you want rail routes to cover costs you should also demand the same from roads and airlines. If transit and commuter rail were held to this standard there would be any of them anywhere. Routes should be judged on their ridership, growth and public benefit. At the very least you should credit a train with the cost savings of less pollution and less road maintainence it generates by getting its passengers out of cars and airplanes.
Good. Amtrak can't run the NEC, they never have been able to, and never will.
And you think freight and commuter railroads could do any better? Geee, how's Metro North running ITS section of the NEC? This this happens I guarentee that speeds on the NEC will drop to 90 or 110 and will become clogged with north/south NS freight traffic. We have already seen it the commuter/private ownership way and say what you will of Amtrak, they have still done a much better job.
Good. Let's also reform the FRA's backwards and archaic laws regarding equipment, signalling, operations, so that operators can run equipment that is actually viable to run.
And we can solve that perky over-population problem as well. If I want to ride in a death trap, I'll just drive my car. It dosen't cost $50 a ride.
Basically, what's been done out west, and has worked, at least in cali.
CA, the Moby Dick State, is larger than most countries and envolops several "corridors". Over here in the East with our more reasonable sized states do you think there could EVER be an agreement b/t two of them for a multi-state HSR system? The MTA refuses to run its buses into NJ and the only transit connections come via a 3-party Port Authority. If you think these partnerships could work for some sort of Long Haul rail system could you pass what ever you're smoking over here? I want some.
Good. Amtrak can't run the NEC. Let the states do it.
Highest speed on NJT run tracks, 80. Highest Speed on MTA run tracks, 90. Highest speed on SEPTA run tracks 80 R1/ 60 Elsewhere. Highest speed on MTBA run tracks, 80.
It's hardly great, but it finally breaks the current logjam which doesn't work, and won't work.
The only thing it will do it cause national rail transportation to disappear forever. I'd rather have a system that dosen't work than no system at all.
"And you think freight and commuter railroads could do any better? Geee, how's Metro North running ITS section of the NEC? This this happens I guarentee that speeds on the NEC will drop to 90 or 110 and will become clogged with north/south NS freight traffic. We have already seen it the commuter/private ownership way and say what you will of Amtrak, they have still done a much better job. "
Why limit possible operators to current railroads. Certainly the airlines would have tremendous interest in operating the NEC and California corridors. I'm sure that Continental (largest airline at EWR) and Southwest (largest at BWI) would be very interested in NEC operations.
CG
"Why limit possible operators to current railroads. Certainly the airlines would have tremendous interest in operating the NEC and California corridors."
Yes, the interest of a wolf in buying a henhouse that comes with tenants. :^)
or oil companies buying solar manufacturers and then closing them down. Remember too Southwest's CEO was a major player in gutting the proposed Texas HSR project--very afraid of competition.
They tried *that* when GM bought the LA Red line et al.
No no no, please! First thing they'd do is put those seats that only fit children into the cars and then serve Eagle snacks, if anything at all. Amtrak's losing enough money as it is without the airlines playing Enron accounting. Then again, if the airlines ran the trains, they'd be SUBSIDIZED ...
Here's an idea - let's go back to COAL-fired steam locos. THEN there'd be subsidies for sure for Amtrak once it starts using "favored energy vendors" ... but in all sincerity, I'd rather see Greyhound running the trains than the hairlines ...
Except for his comment that a train or rail car not meeting all present FRA requirements would be a "death trap", I agree wholeheartedly with Jersey Mike's well-written response!
The people who call Amtrak wasteful and demand the cutting of "excess" routes ignore that these routes SERVE communities that don't have good air service, and generally provide an alternative to driving umpteen hours from one diner or motel to another. Isn't America supposed to be about having CHOICES?!? That service is not profitable, but neither are the roads or airports.
Once you get past the idee fixe (obsession) that rail is somehow different and MUST make a profit, the idea of the long distance routes as "obsolete" is absurd. When profit is no longer the measure, the goal is ridership. THIS is why California has been a success! They didn't cut routes, they added them. They bought trains. They advertised. They made their goal not relentless budget cutting and penny pinching, as Bush and Mineta demand of Amtrak. but instead their goal is carrying more people on more trains to more places. We shouldn't copy California in making the states pay for everything (although they should contribute on intra-state routes), we should copy it in being willing to INVEST tax money freely but wisely (Gunn will spend money wisely) in order to EXPAND, not shrink by cutting "obsolete" routes!!
By the measure of ridership and not "self-sufficiency", the long-distance trains are a success. They are typically well booked and often FULL. Try booking a sleeper in July or late December with a week or less notice! Even the coaches, where people have to sit up to sleep, fill up nicely.
And Jersey Mike is right about foisting Amtrak routes on the states. A state can easily run a route that operates only or mostly within its borders -- New York's Empire Corridor, or Illinois' State House, or California's corridors. But multi-state trains, whether corridor or long-distance, should be run and predominantly paid for by the Federal government. That's why we HAVE a federal government in the first damn place, to run things that are too big for one state to run by itself. A highway that serves 9 states is 80 PERCENT paid for by the Feds. Why should a railway that serves 9 states, or 3, or 12, be paid for ENTIRELY by the individual states, as Bush and Mineta propose?!
Hate to say it but your words for this plan seem to fit nearly everything he has done since he took office.And I comment as a lifetime Conservative Republican. It is too bad both parties had nothing better than garbage to run for this office.Clinton was as phoney as a $3.00 bill butwe've one nothing but go backwards since this guy took over.I'll keep my feelings about 9/11 and the war to myself as they don't belong here.
Rhetorical Question: Would you rather have a president who is sneaky and cheats or a president who is to dumb to be sneaky and cheat?
Given a choice, I'm sure any reasonable person would opt for a president that screws the intern INSTEAD of US ... but that's off-topic. :)
Let's elect a model railroader president.Instead of a golfer...Ike did little more than play golf and smile for the camera for 8 years [1953-61] and we coldn't have done much better. Let him play trains and make appearances...the less they do the less they mess up.
Hey Big Ed, those of you who secretly pine for a return on Bill Clinton make me sick. That bastard did nothing for rail traffic, nothing for Medicare, nothing for Social Security, and nothing for education except talk, talk, talk and bullshit for eight years. Did I ever tell about the dream I have had about motoring the Sea Beach down 4th Avenue in Brooklyn at top speed when I suddenly see Hillary on the tracks. Damn, what a dream.
Unca Fred ... first off, Uncle Ed ain't no crybaby liberail and neither am I (you don't live very long where either of us live "thinking pink") ... but let's face reality here.
Back when Bubba was getting some on him, we had 25 employees here. Today we have TWO. We had an economy even if much of it was built on a house of cards (said dealers mostly contributors and actuaries of the CURRENT administration). Today we have "huh? What economy?" and clueless administration while our finances burn.
I don't think the "other guy" would do much better but we CERTAINLY expected more of THIS boy. Instead of leadership telling America "all we have to fear is fear itself, get back out there and live your life, WE'LL take care of things as you'd expect" we instead get "everybody hide in the onion cellar, them pesky scuba divers are gonna get you." HARDLY leadership.
Say what you will, the train of state is a runaway and our leadership has not only locked itself out of the cab, it disabled the angle cocks and cut out the brakes. Ain't no excuse. I for one am RATHER disappointed and thus wonder if Hillary could be any worse.
(off soapbox, END of political off topic discussion)
I'm afraid I have to agree. Lots of people are disgusted with the fact that good ol' Bill couldn't keep his pants zipped but you have to separate that from his performance as the nation's First Manager. And he was pretty good.
Bill knew when to not mess with things. If something isn't broken, don't go about fixing it. That is an important skill.
The current President meddles a lot, takes advice from a few idealogical insiders and shuts a lot of experienced, senior people out of decision-making. He's caused massive numbers of resignations of people who normally would not leave govt. service because of changes in elected officials - the trouble is, the competent people are leaving, and low-grade morons, some personally corrupt, are taking their places.
>>Did I ever tell about the dream I have had about motoring the Sea Beach down 4th Avenue in Brooklyn at top speed when I suddenly see Hillary on the tracks. Damn, what a dream.<<
WATCH OUT FRED.....Timers ahead !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Out the door I go! I am hoping for the best, for this friendly Station Agent who is coming soon to a booth near you ....
-Stef
And who might this be?
Hey, if I GIVE you a dollar will you go out and buy a clue? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Who else but.........................
STEF
Which station will Stef be working in?
He wouldn't know that.
I won't say exactly where I'm working, but I will say one day a week will be spent in the Times Square Area.
-Stef
R-151?
R-147, when it reopens in August. I on the extra board until it reopens.
-Stef
Is that the one that has the booth on the street level? South side of 42 St between 7th Ave and B'way?
Correct!
-Stef
I hope you don't work there New Year's Eve! Ever!
Nope! I got Christmas and New Years off, assuming I stick to this schedule the entire pick. AVAs will sure come handy....
-Stef
So will sick time!
Hang in there. I promise you it will get better my friend. Just be patient. You have to remember we have several whole stations down (Cortlandt BMT(6 jobs); South Fery (3 jobs), Rector(3 jobs), Cortlandt IRT(3 jobs); WTC Booth on the E(3 jops. That is 18 jobs plus their two RDO days. Also in September we will lose Neptune (F), West 8 (F,Q) and the part-time booth at Stillwell.
For Timse Square, watch your money. The people are slick and will try to pull shell games with Transit's (**your**) money. try to keep your money organized and concentrate. You might be spendsing your lunch sorting your money!
Keep on top of your money!
Always count and put your money together between transactions.
Keep the coins and tokens on the board neatly sorted out.
Always be alert to what is going on in front of you.
There are people who will give you a $10 and jump up and down (like James Brown!- old joke from when I worked there!) saying they gave you a $20. Make sure they are ALWAYS alot of singles and fives in the booth. There will be whole groups where each person will give you a $20 for 1 token. Once upon a time I'd give back 18 singles for 1 token with a $20. While it is a good way to get rid of the singles, keep in mind people will also give you cruddy fives and tens.
Also if you push out 18 singles, someone might turn around and say you only gave them 17.
If you do all that and have a good l/r, you may spend your lunch time sorting money. But maybe you won't have to bag out when your relief comes in. Or put up too much. One thing I have always told new people the few times I had trainees at my booths. Open up a bank account and get an ATM card. There will be times you'll push money out. You realise it's your fault and put it up instead of bagging short and getting a caution or a day in the street.
Yep! I am expecting to be kept busy.
But I will hang in there.
-Stef
That's right! The one and only.......
-Stef
Here's hoping you choose wisely and get what you really want! :)
Thanks! Moo.
-Stef
So did ya find a slot you like on the biggie board? Oink! :)
Selkirk and Others:
I'm kinda disappointed. I went down on the damn roster instead of going up. 8 Clerks decided they wanted RDO jobs instead of anything else. There was only one person behind me who picked the last RDO job.
In summary, I have a 10 hour shift on Sundays. Mondays I'm busy, while Tuesdays and Wednsdays, I'm off. Thursday is another crap ridden day, while Fridays I don't start work until after 6PM! A late job. Saturdays won't be too bad but I'll start at 5:30PM. I had to settle for what was there.... I can only hope for the best to come out of this.
RDO, for those who don't now, means Regular Day Off. Station Agents, Train Operators, etc., have the option of working another person's job on the day that they are scheduled to be off.
-Stef
Where are the jobs?
One job is in the Bronx (10 hour lunch), the rest are in Manhattan.
Of those jobs, one is a straight lunch, two are booth jobs, and two are lunches with booth takeovers.
-Stef
Well, the next bid goes into effect in 2 months. The pick changes on July 14th. Vacation Reliefs got their first bids for the summer pick on their paychecks on Thursday Night.
RTO is picking, on my way home a bunch of T/O's C/R's on the Q were talking about it and the changes to the BMT.
Since these were Q drivers and such they must be way up on the seniority list.
I heard from a flight attendant that the number 1 senior flight attendant is 84 years old, see bids for a NYC London trip each pick and then just puts it up for bid and doesn't work. She just does this to be the top person on the list, she hasn't worked since the 70's but passes her physical each year so she can bid.
Strange.
Industry has finally discovered age and responsibility costs less than new younger employees...the average age of my Car Inspectors class was over fourty...and when a bigmouthoff discovered my degree from 28 years ago asked 'What are you doing here?' We all get paid the same basic salary...if you are willing to do extra tasks, you get nothing but respect. If the body continues to 'percolate,' you have work...excellent work. I'm 48, twenty four years to go. Lord, I pray, keep us ALL safe and well to MAKE TRAINS GO. CI Peter
Too bad Vacation Relief wasn't available to you (or was it?)
Stef's a SLUT ... good old Bronx boy like me ... he looked over the list and found "armchair duty" ... BRAVO, bro! :)
Why you.....Lol!
-Stef
Well? Do I lie? :)
He tells the truth. He is the one...... Moo.
-Stef
Got in trouble for saying "oink," so a hearty "QVACK!" to ya. :)
Zman,
V/R was gone when I got there. The only thing I can do is to wait for the Open Job Bids, and then try to bid for a V/R spot. I got lucky once on a bid. I was V/R for a little more than a month before the pick changeover.
I'm shocked to see a lot of the RDO jobs were taken when I got there. That really surprised the hell out of me.
-Stef
Was there nostril penetration?
?
You lost me on that one.
-Stef
I think I got it. The answer is yes. That awful putrid smell!!!
-Stef
I didn't last long enough with the system but I'll pass on a bit of advice I got from others at the time when I had one of the worst picks in the system (after being reminded that newbies NEVER got a pick so I should be grateful not to be sitting the board) ... "Kid, SURE this pick sucks. There will be others. Do your time, serve your debt to society and next time will be better." (they then walked away snickering) ...
My sympathies ... but at least you're off "extra extra" ... or as some refer to it "job roulette" ...
Thanks to Selkirk and others for the various responses.
It seems that the show must go on, and it will, because I am strong. The big man in the sky is watching over me....
Regards,
Stef
There ya go ... just make sure that you have your croupier glasses on and your chips lined up. :)
Hey!!! I get to use Oink!!!! Stop moving in on my turf!!!!!!!!!
Hopefully he'll pick wisely. I doubt if he'll get what he really wants!
Sounds like one of his days might be a happy tour. But if he's smart, he won't give us all the details or supervision might spot his pals visiting and when you're in the box, they don't like that. :)
True. We might all visit him for moral support and a beakie might be passing thru there in a bad mood.
Yeah, they watch your butt when you've got handles and keys, but they go INSANE when you've got cash. :)
I'll find him and demand my FUN PASS!!!
Where is my FUN PASS its a metro card, you sell metrocards, I WANT MY FUN PASS FROM THE TOKEN CLERK!!!
Holy s@#$!
The day fun pass comes to the booth, the lines could get worse. Hell no!
-Stef
Can I offer you an old fashioned token, my good man? Moo.
-Stef
"I'm sorry sir. Token booths NEVER sell fun passes. You have to go to the MVM machine over there to buy them."
I wonder how many times a day a station agent says THAT?
Come back to work! Fun Pass is everyday. Just watch Taco Bell hook up a gimmick between knife switch and ribbon buss. CI Peter
I did! I did! HA!
I nearly had a cow because one of the workers gave me a lunch relief job that was already picked! She failed to cross it off on the board.
Then they said, "go back and and pick another" and I picked a second booth job. Then, the pick attendant debated with staff as to when another lunch relief job was supposed to end.
Mondays was a total loss, I was bound to get something shitty no matter what I settled for.
-Stef
Good Luck!
Thanks!
-Stef
Last night about 1230 a.m. I observed a 7 train of redbirds heading north on the D train tracks at 42 Street on the 6th Ave line. Any idea where they were going?
"Underwater"
To sleep with the fishes.
My guess would be either 207th or Concourse Yard.
I saw that same consist sitting at 135th, doors open, on a siding at about 0430 this morning. My guess is that they are going to 207th to be stripped and then dumped in the ocean.
Peace,
ANDEE
This may also account for the sudden influx of more R62a sets.
I guess the Redbird is saying "goodbye and goodriddens."
Adios Amigos!
Were the redbirds running on their own power? Or was it being pulled by a diesel?
That was a scrap transfer from Corona to 207 Yard, 9420, 9404, 9325 and two other singles, around 10PM
To a better place...namely the frigid Atlantic waters off of Delaware or something.
Does anyone know how they got to 6th Ave. I am assuming they switch them to the BMT at Queensboro Plaza then reversed them into QueensPlaza then reverse them to the 53 St Tunnel.
Does anyone know how they got to 6th Ave. I am assuming they switch them to the BMT at Queensboro Plaza then reversed them into QueensPlaza then reverse them to the 53 St Tunnel.
That's a hell of a lot of reversing on busy lines. I wouldn't be too surprise if they sent the deadbirds along the following route:
60th St, Broadway, Manny B, West End, Coney Island, Culver, Rutgers, 6th Av
>. Does anyone know how they got to 6th Ave? <<
I thought IRT trains couldn't run on IND/BMT trackage.
I thought IRT trains couldn't run on IND/BMT trackage.
You got it backwards. The BMT/IND cars can't run on the IRT because the IRT tunnels/cars are narrower. In revenue service however, the gap would be two wide if an IRT sized car was to be used on the BMT/IND....but there is absolutely nothing stopping IRT cars from passing through the BMT/IND....the track gauge is standard and exactly the same.
>> You got it backwards. The BMT/IND cars can't run on the IRT because the IRT tunnels/cars are narrower. In revenue service however, the gap would be two wide if an IRT sized car was to be used on the BMT/IND....but there is absolutely nothing stopping IRT cars from passing through the BMT/IND....the track gauge is standard and exactly the same. <<
Okay, thanks. I thought they were totally incompatible systems. That is interesting information.
How do Flushing Cars get to Sixth Avenue?
Easy...
Travel southbound from Corona Yard on Flushing Local track, just before Queensboro Plaza, switch to southbound Astoria-BMT track, proceed toward 60th Street Tunnel. Reverse move through 11th Street Cut, enter Queens Plaza IND on D-2 track, switch over to D-4, reverse to D-3 near Roosevelt, D-3 to either 53rd or 63rd Street Tunnels, onto Sixth Avenue. Reverse at 34th Street, uptown via B-4 and A-2 to 207th.
I think I got it right from 3,000 miles away.
George Devine
San Francisco, CA
It would be nice if we actually addressed what Mineta said today and its effect on Amtrak's future, instead of wasting bandwidth and (IMHO vital) time on one poster's use of one relatively mild curse word.
1. John, nice to see you back here.
2. while others have detoured, I have just e'mailed my two Senators.
OK, I'll bite. How do I find out who my Senators are? I assume I go to some government website, input my postal code, and just send an e-mail?
AEM7
Piece of cake ... www.senate.gov ... as long as you know what STATE you're in, there's only two of them ... and for your "congresscritters" you go to www.house.gov ... here, you'll need your zip code to figure out which "acts of congress" are yours ... remember the names, you'll probably want to pull other levers come November.
nicely put, Kevin. millions for transit, not one red cent for autos
I'd be perfectly willing to see the subsidies cut for Amtrak. *AFTER* the airlines and road trucks have had their throats slashed first. And let's abolish the military as well and hand out uzis to every citizen. The laissez fairy has spoken. :)
Your posting reminds me: Let's all remember that there ARE members of Congress who support Amtrak. (Starved as it is, it wouldn't have survived to this point if there weren't.) There is already legislation pending in Congress to provide Amtrak a real budget instead of a starvation diet.
Therefore, if you don't KNOW the position of your Senator or Congressman on Amtrak, please go to the website of NARP, Friends of Amtrak, or a similar group and look at the latest list of the sponsors of legislation or the co-signers of the pro-Amtrak letter floating around Congress. The people who have signed either or both should still be sent a letter or e-mail, but it should be of a different tone (more positive, recognizing their support and urging them to "fight on") than a message intended for someone who has NOT come out formally in support of Amtrak.
Proud to say that my two senators and even my braindead congresscritter McNulty are all in favor of Amtrak. But yes, others should check first before pulling the alternate lever.
What about that scumbag, Bruno. Where does he stand on AMTRAK?
Peace,
ANDEE
He just built the "Joe Bruno Rensselaer Amtrak station" so I guess he's in favor of it. But then he failed to pass the bill to grant the tax relief to get the tracks moved *TO* his gold-domed train palace, so maybe he's agin' it ... but now he wants to build a private subway from the capitol TO his gold-domed train palace, but he killed the commuter railroad that would have brought people to it.
But he built the "Joe Bruno baseball stadium" and its first game is at 7pm Friday ... slippery, eh? :)
This is why we need laws so that things can only be named for dead people.
Then if people want, they can pass laws that will have names automatically go into effect upon their death, regardless of how they perished...
There's been a petition drive around here to rename the "Joseph L Bruno Baseball Stadium at Hudson Valley Community College" to the "Late Budget Arena" ... when Joey got wind of this, he adjourned the state senate for the year. Ah well ... hopefully the trains will run on time at the Joe Bruno Amtrak station ... either that or Dick Armey will just shut it down entirely. Then they can play football there. Or something.
An excellent reference is the weekly Destination:Freedom newsletter from the National Corridors Initiative. The newsletter has frequent articles on Congressional activity relative to Amtrak. [The Washington correspondent for D:F is Wes Vernon, a retired colleauge from CBS radio, whom I saw at a luncheon this past Monday. His AE back to DC was affected by that day's collision near Baltimore.]
Read the newsletter each Monday morning! Here's a link to this week's edition.
Here's the main NCI Web site.
It won't do any good. I've been plugging D:F for weeks and nobody reads it.
"It won't do any good. I've been plugging D:F for weeks and nobody reads it."
I do! I've read it for months now, along with a good handful of other solid sources of rail news.
well, for starters where do you reside? YOU MEAN YOU DON'T KNOW WHO REPRESENTS YOU??? (as in chess notation) IIRC PA? Santorum and ?
or google US Senate, get list by state.
PA's other senator is Arlen Specter.
Mark
Well, based on some other posts, he's not a US citizen although he currently resides here, so no, he doesn't know who represents him because he isn't entitled to such representation.
If I'm mistaken about his citizenship then I apologize for that, but I would then have to agree totally with your outrage that he doesn't know who they are.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Still, this is America and just because you're not a citizen dosen't mean you can't complain. Last time I looked, Senators don't authenticate the mail they recieve.
You're English, you don't have senators.
"1. John, nice to see you back here."
Thank you. I've been lurking almost since SubTalk came back online, but it still feels good to post something.
"2. while others have detoured, I have just e'mailed my two Senators."
I have done that in the past, plus my Congressman. One Senator already clearly supports Amtrak, while the other hasn't said diddly-squat about it one way or the other.
I also sent a letter to the President yesterday, with a copy by e-mail. Apparently, he hadn't read it yet this morning. :^)
On that point, it may do some good to send a letter or e-mail to your governor and state legislators (except for those in states without Amtrak). They may be very, um, INTERESTED to find out that the President and U.S. DOT expect the states to foot the bill for the NATIONAL passenger railway while roads and airports (heck, even local transit) receive a considerable federal contribution. They may have a few choice words for the President and the SecDOT. Their voices have somewhat more "carry" with the President and SecDOT than the average Joe or Jane off the street. :^)
except of course CA where Shrub is trying to get rid of Davis. We of course already have serios state (used to be called 403b) rail service--and it is heavily used.
"We of course already have serious state (used to be called 403b) rail service -- and it is heavily used."
Yes, the California corridors are excellent, the perfect proof that Americans WILL ride trains if they are frequent and comfortable even if they don't go over 80mph. And California has been willing to pay the millions necessary to do it. But if the Administration policy comes to pass, California would have to either fund or lose trains that are presently national (long-distance) trains, like the Coast Starlight, California Zephyr, and Southwest Chief.
precisely why I wrote them saying keep a single national system. I use the Coast Starlight to Oregon/Wash with connection sometimes to the Empire Builder to Spokane. That means I need the whole thing not just the mega commute corridors. BTW if you really want to be incensed see John Tierney's cover story in the NYTimes Sunday Mag. Completely wrong conclusions from poor research.
Yes. I saw that report on line. I just about blew my head off on the IllianaRR list. And yet Midwesterners seem to on the whole support the proposal. They have even less clue than the clue-less people on here. It's so bad that these people call themselves railfans. AEM7
Check out today Newday's web site and read about the acticle by Ray Sanchez title, "On Rude Road to Recovery." It is interesting on how people are behaving in the subways these days......
Here's the link to Ray Sanchez' rudeness article.
Oh, and by the way, Dockworkers most likely make more in salary than you will ever hope to make.
They also get into the containers, take the cartons out, unpack the boxes, and then take the boxes out of the cartons, and then take the shoes out of the boxes, and take them home for their family. They dig through the whole container to get different sizes that they need. And then they shut the container back up, and send it onto an intermodal train.
When the shoe manufacturer found this out, they started packing only left shoes in one container, and right shoes in a different container. Longshoremen instead just dumped the contents of the container into the sea and all over dock, and the container never got there.
So now the Chinese/Indonesian shoe manufacturers give the dockworkers on the East Coast free gifts.
AEM7
So....purple won as the new color of M&Ms. I wonder what the riders of the 7 line think of this....(there back on topic) 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Just a hint, if you need to put 'off topic' in the subject-- This probably isn't the site for it.
NOTED . . . and appreciated, David.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm thrilled! Finally some recognition.
:-) Andrew
I think this post was not necessary. Besides your subject line gives it away. If purple won for the new color of the M&M's, the public would notice soon anyway.
OOOH, I guess I've benn told.
Peace,
ANDEE
Unless its a tie-in with WMATA...new purple M&Ms to promote the new "purple line" that has been propsed in DC.
Any word on which mode (heavy or light rail) is winning the contest for that corridor at the moment?
Mark
Light rail, there was something about it in this week's Gazette which I have yet to read.
Is that good or bad? I'd love to hear the thoughts of a DC-area resident on the issue.
Mark
The following BBC News story says that 25% of the 1959 Stock on the Metropolitan Line have been taken out of service due to metal fatigue in the bogies (trucks).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/news/june/200602/met_line_200602.shtml
I think it is more a sympton of the awful condition of the track on the Met. The section North of Harrow is some of the worst I have ever ridden.
Simon
Swindon UK
I think it is more a sympton of the awful condition of the track on the Met. The section North of Harrow is some of the worst I have ever ridden.
It is truly dreadful and without any excuse. It's four track at least as far as Moor Park, so closure for renovation would be no problem.
It says, at the end:
The faults are a clear symptom of the age of the fleet.
But London Underground may have to keep the trains running for another 10 years before they are replaced.
43 years is a long time for a fleet. 53 years seems heroic.
Car shortages mean fewer trains which means irate commuters which means pressure on the politicians.
43 years is a long time for a fleet. 53 years seems heroic.
You could just about imagine a letter from the newt to Bloomie saying "please can we have some Redbirds?".
BLOOMIE, Take my Redbirds...Take them all, please. These trainsets are so nasty that they have to be degreassed twice before 86. CI Peter
You mean A stock, right? The 1959 stock were tube trains which were last used on the Northern line before being retired about two years ago. The A stock was very well built but with really bad track and the speeds at which they are run over it will eventually take its toll on the bogies. The cracking certainly isn't a design or manufacturing problem if it's only showing up now, after 42 years in service.
-Robert King
You mean A stock, right? The 1959 stock were tube trains which were last used on the Northern line before being retired about two years ago.
Correct. You spotted my obvious mistake.
The A stock was very well built but with really bad track and the speeds at which they are run over it will eventually take its toll on the bogies. The cracking certainly isn't a design or manufacturing problem if it's only showing up now, after 42 years in service.
It is somewhat ironic that it is one of the few true express runs in London which has caused this problem. With 4 tracks as the section in question is, a weekend closure for maintenance should be no problem.
However well built the trains are, maintenance will be required both to them and the track. The latter seems to be a big problem in the London area.
And the response? No, not get round to repairing the track, but pay a man to stand around making sure that the trains crawl along on the Fast lines! Sometimes it makes you feel that the whole place just sucks.
What, you don't like it when Underground makes the logical connection between out of order equipment and an "out of order" sign? If they fixed everything you'd never get to use those signs! They paid good money for those signs!
I bet an Out of Order sign could last 50 years. Just touch up the paint now and then. Isn't that the best solution?
:0)
The Metroplitan Line is my favorite Underground line. I can seeing how they could be falling apart. I was at a Jubilee station where it runs along the Met line, and saw the Met trains FLYING by. Definately not your typcial 15 mph NYC expresses. The A stock are great cars and hopefully I'll get to ride them again before they retire.
Hey James, are you rooting for England in tomorrow's match? Too bad, 'cuz we're going to win!
u shure did whip em good ...............
Oh...here we go...ANOTHER one dimensional response from BIG SAL.
Peace,
ANDEE
oh baby ...............waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>>lol!!
how bout some md 40 40 !!! on a slant r-40 ??.......lol !!!
yea and ride the railfan window ant 90 mph wow !!!
NOW DATS A REAL RIDE FOLKZ !!!!!!!!! .................he he he he !!
oh baby ...............waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>>lol!!
how bout some md 40 40 !!! on a slant r-40 ??.......lol !!!
yea and ride the railfan window at 60 mph wow !!!
NOW DATS A REAL RIDE FOLKZ !!!!!!!!! .................he he he he !!
The Metroplitan Line is my favorite Underground line. I can seeing how they could be falling apart. I was at a Jubilee station where it runs along the Met line, and saw the Met trains FLYING by. Definately not your typcial 15 mph NYC expresses. The A stock are great cars and hopefully I'll get to ride them again before they retire.
I too like the Metropolitan Line. It has proper express services, not done much over here, but when they're done they're done properly. It looks like we are going to get NYC style "Fast" Amersham trains :(
Fortunately for you, the build quality of the A stock means that the bogies have lasted for 42 years (unlike the R44 (or was it the R46?)). They could go on for another 20 if necessary, and I somewhat suspect they may well do with the current financial situation. Plenty of time for you to come and do some railfanning with me!
Hey James, are you rooting for England in tomorrow's match? Too bad, 'cuz we're going to win!
Predictable. Sadly for you I was born in Cardiff, so I don't really give a damn about how England do at soccer. As my home team, Wales, did not qualify this time, I'd been rooting for the USA.
I'll take you up on your offer in probably 3-5 years! Who built the A stock anyway?
I'll take you up on your offer in probably 3-5 years!
Yes, the offer'll still be there then.
Who built the A stock anyway?
Cravens of Sheffield. It was delivered in two batches, A60 and A62 (unsurprisingly in 1960 and 1962 respectively). They look like commuter trains inside, are comfortable, fast and (until now) reliable. There was a major overhaul of the brakes and suspension in the late 1990's, which I suspect may have magnified the effect of the poor quality of the track.
Some more background information on the Underground's rolling stock: Cravens also built the several units of 1960 tube stock. The A stock was it's subsurface counterpart; unlike the A stock, the 1960 tube stock never went into production because there wasn't enough time to test it, from what I understand. Because the 1960 tube stock never went into a production run of a large order, the 1959 tube stock was ressurected with a few modifications, classified as 1962 stock and a large order was produced for the Central line.
-Robert King
the 1959 tube stock was ressurected with a few modifications, classified as 1962 stock and a large order was produced for the Central line.
Wouldn't those modifications have to be massive to fit in that tiny tube?
Are you confusing my reference of 1959 tube stock with the larger A stock from the Met and the ELL? I'm comparing one tube stock to another. The 1962 tube stock was basically the same as the 1959 tube stock with the Motor - Generator (for the low voltage DC equipment) - Alternator (for the fluroescent lighting) on the 59s being replaced with a straight MA set with a circuit including rectifier of some sort to provide the low voltage DC. The position of the red light with respect to the pair of headlights was reversed and that's basically it.
-Robert King
Are you confusing my reference of 1959 tube stock with the larger A stock from the Met and the ELL? I'm comparing one tube stock to another. The 1962 tube stock was basically the same as the 1959 tube stock with the Motor - Generator (for the low voltage DC equipment) - Alternator (for the fluroescent lighting) on the 59s being replaced with a straight MA set with a circuit including rectifier of some sort to provide the low voltage DC. The position of the red light with respect to the pair of headlights was reversed and that's basically it.
So the 1959 stock would fit on the Central Line? I read somewhere that the Central Line was a slightly smaller bore than the Northern and Bakerloo Lines, so it needed special stock.
Yes and no, the Central line was a slightly smaller bore which presented some clearance problems on the oldest section (I can't remember which stations are the ends of that section at the moment), necessitating the standard positioning of the outer, positive conductor rail to be slightly higher than on the other tube or subsurface lines. This required a special modification to the stocks being used - the use of an extra high lift shoegear that could clear the higher positive rail on the older section which the standard shoegear assembly wouldn't.
The trains equipped with the extra high lifting shoe gear were the original CLR rolling stock, the 'Standard stock' of the 1920s (I haven't been able to determine if all or only some of them were so equipped), the 1962 stock, the 1992 stock and it's prototypes. I believe that all battery locomotives are equipped, too. When other stocks, including the 1959 stock, were moved around on the sections of the Central line that have the high positive rails it presents a problem that can only be solved two ways. Either all the positive shoegears are removed and the train cars are towed dead by a properly outfitted train or locomotive or the extra high lifting shoegears have to be temporarily retrofitted. Other than that nusiance, there are no clearance problems on the Central line for other tube stocks. However, the new ATO/ATP signalling system is another matter entirely...
-Robert King
Thanks for that clarification!
Incidentally, do you have dates for when the last pre-war cars ran?
There was a major overhaul of the brakes and suspension in the late 1990's
Did the overhaul just cover that? IIRC, the interior looked pretty new.
>>The following BBC News story says that 25% of the 1959 Stock on the Metropolitan Line have been taken out of service due to metal fatigue in the bogies (trucks)<<
Problem solved....Since we're making our Redbirds swim with the fishys, why not trade all those Redbird trucks in return for all epsiodes of The Benny Hill Show !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Problem solved....Since we're making our Redbirds swim with the fishys, why not trade all those Redbird trucks in return for all epsiodes of The Benny Hill Show !!
It is very tempting to write to the MTA and to LT suggesting that.
SEPTA has upgraded its classic US&S cast iron transit signals below Walnut-Locust signaling a continuing commitment to wayside black signaling on the BSS. The upgrade stretches from Lombard-South to Pattison on both tracks. The signals now contain hi-intensity LED's in a radial pattern and housed in a damage resistant opaque white plastic. The colours are very vibrant and have a very large viewing angle. They have also replaced the old incandescant lighted number pannel with a flouressant lighted pannel that provides higher contract "black and white" look.
The Pneumatic trip stop system and switch system remain unchanged.
Have the signal heads been replaced entirely or just the
lens and lamp assemblies?
As I said, the signal heads are still the old cast Iron models. They have even gotten a new coat of black paint. They are looking very hot. I'll grab some digital pics tomorrow.
You mean to say they successfully unscrewed the hood and lens
assemblies? Most of the time the screws are frozen in place.
The LED units look like they have sort of been fused in place. The LED unit is a cloudy block of plastic w/ LED's inside that fills up the entire signal head.
Post some pictures when you get a chance.
Is there any focusing lens at all? Unlike motor vehicle traffic
signals, railway signals need to be visible for a long distance.
Even transit signals need to be read for a few hundred feet.
They are focused, but the "focus cone" is a LOT wider than that of the old glass lamps. This it typically because the incandescant lamps are only 15 watts and this limited amiunt of light needs a high degree of focusing to be effective. LED output much more light and don't have to be as conservitive.
The have LEDs in both the Red and Green aspects of the new traffic signals in Bismarck, and I could see clearly (from the other end of the city) that they were new signals, and were much brighter and much more effective. And remeber, you may have more *people* but *we* have more sunlight, and still these new signals were markedly better.
Elias
And I personally think the colours are much more viberant and "true".
JM, I assume the amber aspect is also an LED too. None of the traffic signals I've seen has amber LED's, they retained the old incandescent light.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yup, the yellow aspect is also LED. For traffic lights they generally don't replace the yellow light as it is the least important of the lights, barely seen by drivers.
Do the signals in Philadelphia's subway system work the same way (or nearly the same way) as they work in the New York City Subway System?
- Lyle Goldman
I came back from a couple of days from the Kingston area. I went to the Amtrak Rhinecliff station to shoot a couple of Amtrak trains. I got a shot of a southbound to Penn and asked the conductor when the next northbound was coming.
He said in a few minutes, but warned me about photography on Amtrak property since 9/11. He said it was okay to get my picture but said it warned me of this policy.
Has anyone been reprimanded for photography anywhere on the Amtrak system since 9/11 ?
I did see a posted notice upstairs notifying customers that because of security measures that photo ID is needed for purchase of tickets. But nothing about photography.
BTW - At the south end of the station was an old overpass pedestrian bridge that was badly rusted and was OOS, probably since the NY Central days. Well good news, it seems this old bridge was demolished and a new one erected looking much like the original. The purpose of the bridge is not only for the Amtrak station, but the boat launch below and the restaurants and homes on the other side of the ROW. The best news is nice down on photography vantage from above. But, that may be Amtrak property so, be advised.
Bill "Newkirk"
I would avoid trespassing on Amtrak property, and I would avoid using elaborate contraptions while shooting pictures.
What is interesting too, is that NYCTA does have a long standing policy about people taking pictures without permission. I wonder if the same goes for LIRR, Metro-North, and NJTransit, now with all the security heightness.
Does this mean an end to transit spotting?
that's news to me, as well as many here i'm sure. the rules are specific - so long as you're not using a tripod you can take photos anywhere around the subways. anyone telling you otherwise is wrong.
The MBTA has a bug up its ass about Photos, not the MTA.
It is illegal to take any pictures of any bridge in NYC. There was a sign on the Throgs neck bridge going southbound just after the toll boths on the right side.
This war on terrorism is going to be BETTER than the war on drugs. let's see how many people get arrested and hassled for simply enjoying a long standing american hobby...
if photography is a crime, will just looking at things be outlawed? will we have to ride trains blindfolded? :)
I don't know what the American government's position is on railways, but the infrastructure certainly could be classified as extremely important to national security at some point, with all that's going on down there.
Depending upon how bad things get, they may start being extremely picky about people looking at or examining pieces railway infrastructure and equipment in detail the way railfans do. If that happens, photographing any of it would be an even greater sin for all the obvious reasons.
If I do some travelling to the United States this summer, I really hope I don't get into any trouble taking railfan pictures or, worse, end up in jail for it.
-Robert King
I don't know what the American government's position is on railways, but the infrastructure certainly could be classified as extremely important to national security at some point, with all that's going on down there.
Good point. I've never thought of that. Well, guess that leaves NJT as the only rail company near home where one can take photos. (I need those!)
But it's not like you're going to sell your photos to a terrorist.
Why is it natinal security if the government doesn't protect it (as alowing amtrak to run) as if it were one?
I said railways, thinking from a military strategy point of view. Not nice little passenger services like Amtrak.
-Robert King
Why is it natinal security if the government doesn't protect it (as not alowing amtrak to run) as if it were one?
Funny thing, I was just down in San Diego yesterday (6-20) and was treated to a tour of the trolley shops by a friend of mine who is an official of San Diego Trolley. Nobody even batted an eyelash at the camera.
I also went across the border to shoot bus photos in Tijuana. Not an ounce of hassle there, a lot of the drivers would even stop and hold for me to shoot the picture, they'd say the equivalent of hi in Spanish (and of course, I'd give them a "Gracias" and a wave...)
Then I come back to the US side, and a driver in Chula Vista Transit now has the nomination for "Asshole of the Month" for his actions when I was on a public street photographing the bus. (He slammed on the brakes, jumped out of the bus, and yelled that I am not allowed to take photos of CV Transit buses...and then asked WHY the photos were being taken -- I told him that "San Diego MTS wanted me to check up on him"!! Hope he lost some sleep over that one. I'm a bus driver too, and I would NEVER act that way when I saw a camera whether it be a fan or an official.)
About 5 years ago I was up at the northern terminal of one of those Montreal "Metro" lines. I went across to photograph the Laval Transit buses, which has a small terminal there. As I start to take a couple of pictures, an STL (Societe' Transport du Laval) inspector RUNS toward me, screaming in French. After telling him that I don't speak French, he switches to English and starts interrogating me, asking all kinds of questions. I told him I was a simple transit fan from the States and I have gotten pictures there in the past with no problems. He babbled something about "ESPIONAGE", and told me to leave. So, I guess that meant that other bus companies were trying to steal "secrets" from Laval Transit? What a joke!
Did you take any photos of him? :)
I think that's what i'd do. i try to be polite to police and the such, but if someone wants to play rent a cop, they best expect me to photograph them while i'm at it.
Well since Montreal's model subway (H scale?) has the smallest passenger cars I have ever seen (smaller than IRT). The Montrealian's are ashamed of having the worlds smallest subway for humans, they don't want people to photogragh it and laugh at it.
" I told him that "San Diego MTS wanted me to check up on him"!!"
Haha, did that shut him up and make him run back to his bus?
Yup. Sure did. He drove off like an idiot too, put the rear wheels over the corner on the way out.
Low wages.
It's a load of Bull. I've gotten the same from RR personal all over with the "I don't know if your suposted to be taking pictures after 9/11". It's basically a reaction from employees who are trying to be security consious. There are no official policies that I know of and if you just explain that you're a buff and what you're taking a pic of (I doubt terrorists would care about the New AEM-7AC Rebuilds in the Phaze V paint scheme) they will just leave you alone.
Mr Newkirk... I go to the los angeles Union Station downtown all da'
time ! & Snapoff as many shotz as i want !! Besides how "R" they
gonna stop anyone from takin shotz like this one below ???...lol!!
THE TRAIN POLICE ARE GONNA STOP DIS STUFF FROM GOIN ON !
But LA Union Station is NOT the proerty of Amtrak!!!
LA Union Station is owned by Catellus Corporation. That was the realty subsidiary of the Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe Railway until the time of the BN-AT&SF merger.
Catellus has separated from the railway and still owns quite a lot of realty around the tracks of the former AT&SF.
great !! i wear my MTA- LA vest and i.d badge & get left alone !!!
Take as many pics of any tranz i want when i git' good & ready !!!!!!
>>BIG TIME ...!!!!!!!!!
The non-SubTalker who joined Jersey Mike, Isaac Shomer and me for the December 28 SEPTA excursion was recently told that he was not permitted to take photographs of the Wilmington (Delaware) Amtrak station nor photograph any trains (even SEPTA) from the platforms. The same weekend I had free reign to wander the platforms and photograph to my heart's content at another Amtrak station in the same general area.
Go figure.
On that trip, though, at 30th Street, passengers had to show a ticket for the particular train in order to be allowed access to the platform.
Don't you usually have to show a ticket to get down to platform level at 30st?
Don't you usually have to show a ticket to get down to platform level at 30st?
Yes, but they actually read them now.
Don't worry. In motreals amtrak station (don't remember exact name), The information lady said you need a ticket officialy (there were gates for the elevators and ticket checkers for the escalators), but told to ask someone else, Wink Wink. We found a janitor for AMT (shhh)(commuter rail) who said even though officially you can't go down A ESCALATOR without a ticket, no one said anything about a stairway. He pointed to a unassuming door on a wall with no signs for it. It happened to go down to AMT's platforms (kindda like penn). I throughly saw AMT's electric rolling stock (look like a nicer M-7, with partial railfan window, the engineer cab can be sealed off from the vestibule, can be turned into a transverse on demand, though the window is nice big and clear, unlike MNRR coaches). I couldn't get to Amtraks platforms because I would have to go upstairs and take a another way down, plus Amtrak staff would have a mental breakdown. Though I could switch AMT platforms without going upstairs. The employies on the AMT platforms, didn't know anything or say anything (2 people walking on a platform that hasn't seen or will see a departure or arrival in 2 hours).
Hey Bill....
I was up at the Rhinecliff station shooting last Saturday and Sunday...Didn't have any problems though. Talk to you soon.
-Mark
test
If you're wondering what the future holds for passenger railfans if the current "darkest hour" for Amtrak really happens, look no further than the bleak railfan landscape of Kansas City. The KC metro area is second only to Chicago in terms of track miles, but has only 6 passenger trains a day. (That's three each way, two to St. Louis with one of those continuing the long way to Chicago, and the Southwest Chief to LA and Chicago.) There is NO light rail and NO commuter rail. The bus system, if you can call it that, is feeble at best. (Just TRY to take public transportation to or from the KC airport. I dare you.) When people go anywhere around here, they drive. Period.
Sure, there is an incredible amount of freight action to see here. The BNSF (former Santa Fe) transcon line goes through, and all the Class 1 railroads except CSX have a presence here. But for a railfan who likes to see passenger trains, or rail transit, it's a wasteland.
To me, it looks like Bushie and Mineta and their pals want the rest of the country to look like KC, and from my experience, it's not much fun.
Sound like they need some pro-transit politicians in the city government and less "air-heads." I remember reading somewhere that KC had an extensive streetcar system back in the day until the buses replace them. I guess that went down the tubes as more people left for the suburbs in the 60's.
Yep. KC did have an extensive streetcar system, if fact I've read that the first electric powered streetcar in the US was in KC. There was also a nice network of interurbans. (The ROW for the line to St. Joe goes right through the backyard of a friend of mine.) It was all torn up in the name of 'progress' soon after WWII.
I'm thinking I need to move back home to Chicago...
Yep. KC did have an extensive streetcar system, if fact I've read that the first electric powered streetcar in the US was in KC. There was also a nice network of interurbans. (The ROW for the line to St. Joe goes right through the backyard of a friend of mine.) It was all torn up in the name of 'progress' soon after WWII.
I'm thinking I need to move back home to Chicago...
Some Kansas city PCC cars, the all electrics, ended up in Philadelphia and Toronto (where some eventually went down to Philadelphia, third hand, when the TTC finished up with them) after they abandoned streetcars in Kansas.
-Robert King
I wouldn't completely give up hope for light rail. If places like Denver and Portland can have successful LRT systems, Kansas City can too.
Nahh, he's better off in Chicago. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
When I lived in Kansas City for a few months in 1998, there was news coverage about a proposed commuter rail line to Johnson County Kansas going in the southwest direction.
What ever happened to this project?
To add to nsd's question, I've read of light rail proposals in Kansas City. The last one I heard about was killed, sadly, but that was a long time ago. Any news on the KC light rail front these days?
Mark
Light rail shows up on almost every election in KC, and gets voted down every time. The NIMBYs and government waste idiots are organized and tend to shout very loudly. Sure, it COULD happen someday, but it doesn't seem very likely...
You'd think that being so close to a successful light rail system (the St. Louis MetroLink) would make the people demand one of their own. But I guess not. Baltimore is so close to DC, yet still has an inadequate rail system, and Seattle, so close to Portland's light rail successes still isn't convinced...
Mark
Baltimore doesn't talk to DC. The rail is inadequate because we stupidly killed our streetcar system (much of which had extensive PR/W) post WWII, then piddled the rail future in the 1970's. The subway line we have was the only one built thanks in part to WMATA, which had so many cost overuns that Congress, who had agreed to fund Metro constuction totally refused to do the same for anybody else. The original plan for Baltimore was for lines covering every part of the area - we got one - the cheapest one to build.
Baltimore then piddled some more until William Donald Schaefer, our "do it NOW" Governor (after many years as Baltimore's "do it NOW" Mayor) got the light rail line built.
Now the MTA is talking about a regonal rail system, Subway, Light Rail and Commuter rail that serves the whole metro area by 2020. It's a rehash of the rail plan that first came out in 1962. So far it's been 40 years and we have a little bit (nice to have). I suspect nothing will happen.
There is no rail vision at the William Donald Schaefer Tower, headquarters for the Maryland Transit Adminsitration.
Well, they're still in the talking stage. I read recently that Amtrak will soon be moving back to Union Station, and that the work that gets done to allow that to happen will also prepare the station for commuter rail IF it ever happens. However, the budget crises in both Missouri and Kansas will need to be resolved before any real progress gets made. I'm not holding my breath, and in the meantime I'm just glad I have relatives in NYC that I can visit who don't mind that I spend most of the day when I'm there sampling the LIRR, NJT and Metro North.
Just TRY to take public transportation to or from the KC airport. I dare you.
That doesn't surprise me. I attended a two-day conference at one of the airport hotels back in 1986. Except for the directly airport-related busineses, of which there were surprisingly few, MCI very much appeared to be, as the old expression goes, in the middle of nowhere. Looking in some directions from the hotel I literally saw nothing but prairie. Granted, the area may have built up somewhat in the intervening years, but I suspect it's still quite undeveloped. Sheer distance from the city is part of the reason. From my south-facing room on the sixth or seventh floor of the hotel, I could just barely make out the downtown skyline in the distance.
Some local people at the conference said that MCI's remoteness was in large part due to unexpected patterns of development. When the airport was developed in the 1950's or early 1960's, everyone expected that suburban development would spread northward toward the area where the airport was built. Eventually MCI would be in the heart of the metro area's developed area. In fact, suburban development mainly spread southward, especially into Johnson County, leaving MCI isolated to the north. Hey, at least NIMBY's aren't a problem :)
Anyway, getting back to the original point, any sort of light rail line to the airport would be unlikely in Kansas City both because of the sheer distance involved, and because there would be very little along the line (and therefore no significant ridership) until the airport itself. It's not as if the airport is at the end of a densely populated corridor that would garner heavy local ridership. In addition, an Airtrain-style dedicated line, funded by airline ticket surcharges, is unlikely because MCI has long been underutilized.
The next shipment of redbirds will be unusual for two reasons.
First - there will be more of them. Previously, I'm told that the largest barge-load of redbirds was 32 cars. The next load will be at least 50 cars.
Second, they will not be heading for the Delaware Coast. This load will be heading to South Carolina. It seems that while Delaware has asked for all of the redbirds, other states have also asked for a 'fair share'.
The NYCT will now try to distribute them evenly. After the redbirds, the NYCT will be scrapping up to 1,300 IND cars before the end of the decade and they want as many options as is possible. Oddly enough, while the redbirds have been a boom to marinelife and the state environmentalists and ecologists welcome them, NY will still not take them. The mind boggles.
TD<
Does the R-38, 40, 42 & 44's have asbestos ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Asbestos is a fire-proofing material. I don't see why steel subway cars would need them.
>>Asbestos is a fire-proofing material. I don't see why steel subway cars would need them.<<
The Redbirds are loaded with asbestos, especially the R-26/28's. That's why they're being dunked instead of being conventionally scrapped. Isn't asbestos also used as insulation too ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I know the practice has gone on for many years, but it seems like such a waste. They could be used in other less fortunate countries. Many of these redbirds have spent their entire life on the "7". You don't know how sorry I will be to see those redbirds go. My biggest fear is that someday the recently-retired NJ Transit PCC cars will meet with the same fate. As soon as the T/A gets money to buy new equipment, out with the old, in with the new. Such was the case with the R-27/30 series. Just my two cents.....
I'd doubt any city anywhere in the world would want them. Most cities' subways are modern, especially compared to NYCT, even in "less fortunate" countries. The Redbirds are/were probably the most in worst shape trains in the world.
Beg to differ, Unca Rob ... I know for a FACT that the Mongolian subway system could make good use of them - as long as CI Peter leaves the batteries in the boxes for 'em ...
Well since the Mongolian Subway doesn't exist, they need to get all the cars they can get their hands on.
That's if the Dayton subway doesn't get the Redbirds first!
Mark
Here we go again! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
This guy had a LOT of free time...
-Hank
You mean the second system didn't run to Dayton via Forest Hills? :)
Or the Cincinnati subway.:-)
actually you are not are off !!.. dis is an actual photos of it !
LOL
also checx dis out ...http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/dayton/dayton.htm
he he he he he
Salaamallah...hope yu r not another sucker for the DayTonn hamvention special subway! CI Peter
yea ...........lol !!!
Yes there is a Mongolian Subway.
I wonder if they sell t-shirts...
Mark
Special Tee Shirtsky for freedom loving Amerikansky who supports Mongolian Peopleskies Subway. Extra Special Tee Shirtsky for freedom loving Amerikansky who supports Mongolian Peopleskies Subway and is experienced Car inspector qualified for Propulsky. Extra extra special Tee Shirtsky for anyone buying plastic tokensky not good for nothing outside of freedom loving Mongolian Peoples Demoratic Subway System of Ulan-Bator. Free ride for Energizer Bunny. CI Peter
Peter obviously went thru the web site. It's hard to imagine a system like this [ahem, you supply the word] still exists in the world.
Ohhhh....it could be another Dayton Subway BUT....Washingtons original line was about fourteen miles long. What amazed me was the beauty of the stations despite the economic conditions. This system was built as it is because they couldn't afford the third rail infrastructure. I've done special battery inspections on full R142 trainsets: six 'B' cars contain 150 individual cells with 600 buss nuts to be torqued to specification. I can only imagine how many batteries contained. Drop a wrench in the wrong place and Kingdom Come is in your face. CI Peter
ROTFLAMO
On The Juice - The PRO who Makes Trains GO
I hear I'm a sucker for these things...the site may be a fake but I like the concept of a zillion wet cells ala R110B.
A couple of years ago I was thinking of taking a 'bird and sticking a bunch of locomotive batteries in it to make it go.
'Four Wheel Drive' magazine had an article on stick welding with car batteries...current is controlled by resistive legnths of wire from two or three car batteries. 'Fine Homebuilding' had an article on building a home on an isolated island sans 120 VAC. Gasoline transport was expensive so when the generator was run, it charged a bank of car batteries. There are still many power tools available for AC/DC use...they are the ones which do not have variable speed. Of course, extension cords must be short and properly protected. IF the Mongolian Subway piece was fake, it was certainly well executed. Read this TA: 'I'm a sucker for good ideas that you can apply.' Forget the plastic tokens. CI Peter
'Fine Homebuilding' had an article on building a home on an isolated island sans 120 VAC. Gasoline transport was expensive so when the generator was run, it charged a bank of car batteries. -- This is a real good description of the Delco System, which was devised by General Motors in the 1920s using a gasoline engine to power a 32VDC generator feeding car batteries to provide lighting, etc for farms.
There are still many power tools available for AC/DC use
---Universal Motors, Lionel Trains use this type of motor and early Lionel catalogs feature "Reducers" which were used in place of transformers in places where the mains were DC powered such as parts of Manhattan back in the 1920s
The 'check' in selection at Homeless Depot is the AC/DC switch listing on the box. Ah yes, 32 VDC WinChargers and farm radios. Maytag was a biggie in those days with a kick start gas powered washing machine. They even came out with a 32 VDC generator powered by the same washing machine motor. The stuff still shows up at the antique gas/steam engine shows. Rural Electrification spoiled all the fun...I still have a big box of silicon half-cells and a three way refrigerator in my bunker. CI Peter
Mongolia Town can host the Olympics.
As long as I get to hear the "MoTown" sound from subway musicians, and by the "MoTown" sound, I mean Central Asian throat singing!
Mark
The article in Scientific American on the throat singers of Tuva (with links to sound files; you will not believe a human throat is producing this sound).
And we thought the G was difficult. 4 tph rush hour headways! But then, the fare is a mere eleven cents.
I wish SEPTA trolleys ran as often on weekends!
For more Tuvan throat singing, also check out the movie Genghis Blues as well as the website Friends of Tuva.
Mark
If you really believe that site, I have a bridge you might like to buy.....
I guess England is a less fortunate country -- there is one of the unreliable Boeing-Vertol cars from the San Francisco Muni in the yard of the Manchester Metrolink system!
Fytton.
Poor Manchester.....they must REALLY be desperate.
Oh come now, there not in that bad a shape. With some welding and a new coat of paint (I'm partial to their original turquoise livery), chances are, they'd be in service another 40 years. I'd like to see an R-142 last that long. They're the cars they should be dumping in the Atlantic....
We weren't talkign about the Redbirds...we were talking about San Francisco Muni Boeing LRV's.
Boeing...made LRVs? Oy mitzvah. I heard about that fiasco once...Guess Boeing's better off sticking with planes 'stead of trains.
They are - patronage on the Manchester MetrotLink is growing so fast they don't have the equipment to carry them. The MUNU Boeings weren't total dogs, they just need some care. Manchester got one for a test. Anybody got any later news?
Redbirds are really good running trainsets and we do keep everything in shape but fourty-plus years of bashing on the carbon steel structures has taken its toll. Perhaps in a desert environ they might make another fourty years but a third world nation would not have the powere generation facilities to provide operation. Mongolias 'Ulan-Bator' subway is an excellent example of what you can do with 'third hand' equipment....trainsets have no third rail and rely on batteries for power. CI Peter
I, too, will miss the Red Birds. They have the classiest paint scheme of any equipment I have ever seen.
In re to the PCC's - there are enough places looking to get some or all of them (esp. San Francisco), that they won't be getting scrapped anytime soon.
Steel structures can burn, I think we learned this already about 9 months ago.
Steel itself doesn't burn, but at a certain temperature it loses its rigidity.
Yeah, the oxidation of iron (the main component of steel) is not so dramatic as to be called "fire." It simply rusts.
Mark
As long as they ain't got grits. Soggy grits ain't no fun. :)
have any yelleybirds been sent to sinking?
i mean yellowbirds(MOW R12,14,15,17,21,22)
Has the TA gotten all the R-142/A cars it ordered yet?
Certainly not. The 5 has only a few and the 3 and 4 don't have any yet. There are still a few in line more for the 2 and 6 as well.
Think about it this way. When the shipments are complete, there won't be any Redbirds left. Are there still any Redbirds running? Sure, lots -- two trains on the 2, a bunch on the 4, and most of the 5 and 7.
The #5 line has about 5 to 8 r142s
the #2 line has 2 more to go
the #4 line has 8 to 10 trains to receive
the #7 line has a year to go.with 12 trains to go
the #3 line will get 23 trains of r142s
Why doesn't Amtrak trim its fares a little? Acela is just as expensive as a plane.
If Amtrak is selling out its Acela trains, why shold it lower fares? The correct responce it to RAISE fares. In fact they did this, implementing an aditional peak fare surcharge of $5.
The fares on AMTRAK have long since kept me from riding it since I knew about it 8 years ago. A fare OW from 30th St. Philadelphia to Metropark was $40/person! I'd definitely take the SEPTA, then NJT there as it is down to more than half the fare.
Traveling anywhere on the NEC (I need an accompaniment) I'd 100% choose local rail companies such as SEPTA, MBTA, and NJT. AMTRAK is just too expensive for me, especially the Acela fares. It costs as much as an airplane's fare, as I have proved earlier.
How is that going to HELP its financial woes? Do you know anything about economics or even simple arithmetic?
I guess he's trying to say that if the prices were lower, then more people would ride. From ATL to NYC, it costs the same on Amtrak and Delta. I have no desire to ride Amtrak if it cost the same to fly and takes overnight instead of just two hours. And we only have one train to NYC per day, versus every hour or less via air.
nd we only have one train to NYC per day, versus every hour or less via air.
Do airlines have a fixed schedule daily and does it change? IIRC they have sporadic scheduling while one hour Delta might have 3 Delta Expresses to Newark, and the next hour there is only 1. Do you have any information about this?
Go to Delta.com and look up the schedule.
I am back from Delta.com and found the following schedules for June 28, 2002 from ATL to EWR:
6:35a
8:00a
2:00p
2:30p
3:30p
8:10p
9:40p
These are all direct flights between those two points, but there are more connecting at CVG to EWR.
Fares to choose from for these flights (RT):
$218.50
$246.50
$306.50 (for the 8:10p flight)
Direct flights are 2hr. and 5 min from ATL to EWR.
I think this is better than one Crescent train down there per day and if it costs the same as the plane, I'd definitely take the plane. Time is money, have to save time!
and so you should take the plane because a short (miserable IMHO) trip by plane is better than a long pleasurable trip by train right? I admit to occasional plane trips OAK-JFK for instance but my prefernce is train if at all possible. BTW much of this will one hopes become academic soon. BNSF has begun a serious in company program of video conferences instead of in the same room meetings. As this grows (sell your hotel stocks) because the companies will save billions and by and large the employees will prefer being at home rather than in some generic motel, the entire travel/hospitality business will be vastly changed.
I wouldn't sell those hotel stocks so quickly. First rule of business -- don't do business with people you can't trust. I've been doing video-conferences since 1992, and they have limited usefulness.
It's very difficult to lie to somebody's face. It's much easier to do into a camera.
CG
When vaction time is limited, the short, cramped flight beats hands down any type of comfort that a train would have. I don't want to spend 25% or more of my vaction getting to my destination.
I don't want to spend 25% or more of my vaction getting to my destination.
That's one difference between you and me... for me, riding the train IS my vacation :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You got that right!!!
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to ride Amtrak somewhere. The way I see it is that I could ride Amtrak on the weekend anytime I want (if I got the money for it), if I just wanted to ride Amtrak. But when it comes to vaction time, when I'd have a week or two, I'd much rather go to a specific destination and spend as much time possible there.
"I think this is better than one Crescent train down there per day and if it costs the same as the plane, I'd definitely take the plane. Time is money, have to save time!"
I don't know about the Crescent's schedule, but I have found Amtrak's schedules on the Capitol Limited and City of New Orleans to be time SAVERS for me -- on business trips no less! The company pays for coach, and I pay for the sleeper. I wait to buy the sleeper upgrade onboard, which can be half-price or even better compared to a pre-purchased sleeper.
I leave Chicago Friday night, a quick cab ride from my office to Union Station, sleep through much of the trip (the "dull" portion of the trip sightseeing-wise), arise, shower*, and eat breakfast in the morning, see the sights, eat lunch, see more sights, and arrive in Washington or New Orleans Saturday mid-afternoon.
Meanwhile, my co-workers arise at an ungodly hour Saturday to get to O'Hare or (shiver!) Midway, wait in line, jam onto a plane, arrive at New Orleans airport and take a long cab ride or at BWI and take a bus, train, and subway in, only to arrive at the hotel (surprise!) mid-afternoon Saturday. (And all those various flying delays were on trips BEFORE Sept. 11th.)
*I hate being dirty. I buy a sleeper upgrade as much because it give me access to a shower as because of the bed or "free" meals.
Going is the easy part -- the thing that makes flying preferred for me is the flexibility, particularly on the return.
What happens when your meeting in New Orleans ends at 4:00 Monday afternoon? Your colleagues are in their own bed Monday night and back at their desks at 9AM Tuesday. Your train chugs on into Chicago at 9AM -- Wednesday.
CG
"What happens when your meeting in New Orleans ends at 4:00 Monday afternoon? Your colleagues are in their own bed Monday night and back at their desks at 9AM Tuesday. Your train chugs on into Chicago at 9AM -- Wednesday."
1) These were always multi-day meetings, so one day in the difference one way or another didn't matter.
2) I would either take a vacation day or two, or make up a couple of worked weekend days, and stay over in DC as a tourist. Since the company had to pay for me to travel there and back anyway, my only expense was the additional hotel day(s).
3) Coming back from the New Orleans trip, my flying co-workers were socked in by a storm. They eventually arrived in Chicago in the VERY LATE evening -- having been re-routed New Orleans-Birmingham-Louisville-Chicago -- and didn't get home until well after midnight. They were all zombies the next morning at the office. Meanwhile, I arrived at the office only about an hour late -- quick cab ride from Union Station to the office -- having showered, shaved, put on clean clothes, and eaten a good breakfast as we hurtled through the eastern Illinois and then suburban Chicago landscape at 79mph.
Well I guess the train is a sort of "resort" or a hotel you can stay during your trip. According to your experiences, I would like taking the train. It's just that if the weather is nice, I'd save time (especially during a one week vacation) and not waste a week on the train.
I've never experienced long distance train rides before, but as long as AMTRAK doesn't shut down, I still don't know if I'll have a chance.
On popular trains and lines that would make no sense, they need as much profit as they can get out of them. Since the only line turning a decent profit is the NEC and particularly Acela, they should never lower the fare. Should riders start turning away from Amtrak, then is the time for lowering fares. Plus, some riders actually enjoy and look for high fares, high fares give the appearance that "unrefined" patrons don't use the service.
But on lines with shaky ridership or ones that run short trains (Like Keystone or Empire Service) lower fares would make sense, or at the very least some frequent rider or promotional discounts.
Much as I dislike Amtrak's high fares on the Empire service between NYC and Albany, I can see it makes sense from a marketing point of view. You can come into the city from up north and avoid the miserable traffic and the cost of parking.
It's 2 hours from Hudson to NYC, $37 on weekdays and $42 on weekends. You can't do that stretch in 2 hours in a car even without traffic, and it can easily be 3 hours with traffic.
Do they still sell monthly tickets on the Empire service (I believe Albany - NYC was about $600+ back in 1996-7)?
CG
That would make sense if Acela weren't constantly booked solid. However, the NEC is doing excellent business. Lowering fares to attract more customers wouldn't be helpful right now because there's not room for them. Besides, with fares being what they are, most people who ride the NEC and particularly Acela can afford to pay more.
Dan
As others have noted, lowering fares does nothing to help the bottom line if you're running full trains already.
By the same token, if the trains are running empty lowering the price makes all the sense in the world. Once you've committed to running the train, the fixed costs are sunk -- the marginal costs of adding a passenger in an empty seat are nearly zero.
The airlines solved this problem years ago with Yield Management pricing. That Amtrak hasn't followed suit (at least on their reserved services) is disgraceful. Not that the airlines don't have their own set of problems, but they have done an excellent job of maximizing revenue.
CG
The airlines have maximized their revenues at the expense of the taxpayer. Where have you ever heard of private industry being subsidized by the Feds when they don't reach their projected profits? The airlines did recently and were quietly paid off by Mr. Bush and Company. But Amtrak, on the other hand, has to come begging with its hat in its hand just to get a few crumbs off the table. That's what's disgraceful.
The Airlines are nothing but welfare bums, I hope USAir goes down for good and I told my Congressman that bailing out USAir is just flushing money down the toilet.
Oranges. 2 for 1.00.
10 people buy 20 oranges all together.
Profit: 10.00.
Mike tells his friends the oranges are expensive in that store.
Loss of customers.
Oranges. 2 for 75 cents.
10 people buy 20 oranges all together.
Profit: 7.50
Mike tells his friends the great deal he got on oranges.
10 of Mike friends buy oranges at the store.
10 more customers.
20 people buy 20 oranges all together.
Profit: 15.00.
Profit doubles by word of mouth.
Get it?
This is just my opinion. Don't flame me if you disagree. :)
Then I was right. You obviously know jack squat about economics.
What about the cost of the store in getting the oranges? What about hiring people to run the store, and for the electricity for the lights in the store? What about paying rent or mortgage or taxes (fine, Amtrak doesn't need to pay taxes)? And what if the store has no more oranges to sell?
OKAY! OKAY! So I suck at economics. I'm a computer tech, not a businessman. By the way, I'm opening a business. Wanna buy some stock? ;)
The way you counted revenue as profit clearly qualifies you to be a CEO or CFO in 2002!!!
CG
I won't ask what a CFO is. I think I know. Hehehehehe.
"I won't ask what a CFO is. I think I know. Hehehehehe."
It's like a UFO, but different.
Instead of Blinking Lights, it uses Smoke and Mirrors
It will not abduct you, but only your wallet.
But if anything goes wromg, BAM either one of them is out of here.
Elias
from NJT's site:
Home > News and Events> Press Releases > Press Release 06/18/2002
TWO NEW STATIONS TO OPEN ON THE NEWARK CITY SUBWAY
Expanded Service Begins/Weekend Service Resumes on June 22
NEWARK, NJ, JUNE 18, 2002 -- The Newark City Subway system will be extended by one mile beginning Saturday, June 22, when NJ TRANSIT welcomes two new stations -- Silver Lake Station in Belleville and Grove Street Station in Bloomfield. Grove Street Station includes a new 160-space park/ride for the Newark City Subway, the first official park/ride on the 67-year-old system. 'The new stations on the Newark City Subway is indicative of Governor McGreevey?s commitment to developing a strong transportation network and renew the state?s cities,' said NJ TRANSIT Board Chairman and State Transportation Commissioner James P. Fox. 'The extension benefits new and existing riders and establishes Newark City Subway?s first park/ride facility.'
'These new stations and park/ride will better serve residents in Essex County and the surrounding area by providing them with more options when traveling on the Newark City Subway,' said NJ TRANSIT Executive Director George D. Warrington. 'The new stations are fully accessible to people with disabilities. In addition, the expansion encourages economic development with the help of a reliable public transportation system.'
NJ TRANSIT will resume a full schedule of weekday and weekend service on the Newark City Subway on June 22, eliminating the need for substitute bus service related to the construction. Nightly service for Silver Lake and Grove Street stations, however, concludes each night at 10 p.m. Subway riders can access the No. 90 bus, which serves both Silver Lake and Grove Street stations, to reach their destinations after 10 p.m.
The Newark City Subway extension has also resulted in the consolidation of Heller Parkway and Franklin Avenue stations to form the Branch Brook Park Station. Customers now have full access to the station via the existing bus staging area at Fifth Street, the ramp entrance on Heller Parkway, or the entrance on Grafton Avenue. Heller Parkway Station will close permanently on June 21.
Customers, who ride the No. 27 bus and access the subway at Heller Parkway, can use the ramp near Heller Parkway or connect to or from the subway near the new Silver Lake Station on Franklin Street. Connecting service from either station will require a transfer fee of $1.60.
In addition, NJ TRANSIT will increase parking capacity on the system by adding 60 daily and 100 monthly permit parking spaces at the Grove Street Station. Parking fees will be waived from June 22 to June 30. Beginning July 1, parking permits must be purchased in combination with transportation fees from designated Ticket Vending Machines at the lot near the station entrance.
Daily round trip transportation and parking fees from Grove Street Station will cost $4.20, while monthly parking and transportation fees will cost $85. Customers can purchase July monthly parking and transportation tickets on June 22, however, they must retain their June monthly pass for transportation through the end of the month.
Riders can get additional information on schedules and fares by contacting NJ TRANSIT between 6 a.m. and midnight at 1-800-772-2222. For persons with hearing impairments, the number is 1-800-772-2287. Information is also available on the Internet at www.njtransit.com.
The opening of the two new stations marks the first extension of the Newark City Subway since a short segment from Heller Parkway to Franklin Avenue opened in November 1940. The Newark City Subway improvement project cost $188 million, and was funded by the federal and state governments. Those costs included:
· Construction of the City Subway extension to Bloomfield.
· 16 New LRVs.
· Modernization and accessibility improvements at three existing stations (Penn Station, Washington Street and Orange Street) and construction of Branch Brook Park Station (consolidation of Heller Parkway and Franklin Avenue stations).
· Track, power and signal rehabilitation on the current segment.
NJ TRANSIT is the nation's largest statewide public transportation system providing Bus, rail and light rail services for 380,600 daily commuters on 238 bus routes, two light rail lines and 12 commuter rail lines. It is the third largest transit system in the country with 163 rail stations, 26 light rail stations and more than 17,000 bus stops linking major points in New Jersey, New York and Philadelphia.
©2002 NJ TRANSIT All Rights Reserved. See important legal disclaimer.
Great news - for Newark and for NY. Expanded use of the subway will help feed PATH (and vice-versa). It will give further impetus to PATH's restoration.
What is the fare for the Newark City Subway? The last I looked, (years ago) it was based on 3 zones. and it was more than PATH or the NYC subway.
As of Wednesday, the one way fare was a flat $1.10, which gives you up to 45 minutes of riding time in either direction. I don't know whether the fare will be higher to the two new stations, but my guess would be "no" based on the daily parking fee mentioned in the press release.
Up to 45 minutes or riding time?
What happens after that? It charges more?
After you pay the $1.10 you get a metrocard type of media and you have 45 minutes to get to whereever?
There are no turnstiles. You stamp a ticket in a machine with the expiration time and it may be randomly inspected. You have 45 minutes to finish riding. A one-way ride shouldn't take longer than that.
I'm going to try to get to Newark after the downtown Brooklyn Busfest for opening day if there's time.
Should anyone at the Busfest be interested, the more the merrier.
Like the G and the #7?
Just imagine what it would be like, there would be no Flushing express right now, however, if there were no strikes, Queens passesngers can enter the subway syster at discounted prices to connect to other lines.
At one time QSC was NY & QC Ry, the largest trolley line in Queens.
In Brooklyn it was the BRT & Manhattan had TARS (3rd Ave).
TARS was also a major piece of the Bronx as well ... just for the histerical note (sp intended) ... :)
For you BROOKLYN boyz ... Da Bronx was considered as part of Manhattan in history, that's why most of the street numbers aligned across both boroughs until they started losing count. Damned drunken Micks. Heh.
And what about that small chunk of Manhattan that still IS in the Bronx...(According to Hagstrom) It's the first stop over thr river on the 1/9. What is it -- Morris Park?
Marble Hill. It used to be part of the island of Manhattan; when the island's borders were moved, the borough's borders were left alone.
Morris Park is on the 5 train.
Actually, the Bronx can't be part of Manhattan. It got its own borough when boroughs were invented, and it was never part of the island of the same name.
But on Bronx lines, the directions are uptown and downtown, whereas in the other occupied boroughs, the directions are either other borough or destination (to Manhattan, to Coney Island).
Obviously the Borough of The Bronx, nor any other borough, did not
exist prior to 1898.
Did Bronx County exist though? Between 187(4?) and 1898, The Bronx
was an Annexed District of the City of New York. Was this district
part of Westchester County previously?
Yes, it was.
Bronx County was cut from NY County in 1898 and is the newest county in the state.
None of those trains would be on time.
=)
And don't forget that one poster might be able to get all of us "guest passes" if we are nice to him.
I'm wondering about what sort of logic goes into making a flag stop as opposed to a reguar station stop. I live in Philly (well, Yeadon, actually...), so I know a lot of ridership patterns, but some flag stops make no sense. So, my question is...
Why are the following stations "flag stops"
R1: Why aren't there any, this is one of the least used lines. And there's no point in stopping at the Airport Terminal stations on an inbound train if nobody's waiting.
R2 Warminster: Crestmont
R3 Media/Elwyn: Gladstone, Fernwood,
R3 West Trenton: Rydal, Meadowbrook, Trevose
R5 Lansdale/Doylestown: Fortuna, Colmar, Link Belt, Chalfont, New Britain
R6 Norristown: Temple University, Wissahickon, Ivy Ridge, Miquon
R7: Eddington, Wissinoming, Temple University, Mt. Airy, Gravers
R8 Chestnut Hill West: North Philadelphia, Highland
Temple University always has people at it, so making it a flag stop is pointless.
The last few times ive been on the R8, Highland never had people but it always stopped there. Im not sure why its marked a flag stop, when trains dont go by it
The R1 to the airport gets a surprising amount of ridership.
Crestmont is a flag stop because i think the community opposed running every train there, and its a little used station.
Many of the stops you listed are flag stops only at certain times. On weekends in daylight trains often treat even more stops as flag stops - trains will slow down and the crew will ask if anyone wants the stop, and if no one is on the platform and no one wants off, the stop isn't made. The problem remains that the schedule must still be held, thus the train must run slow or dwell extra time at the next stop to make up for it. I know from experience that Ivy Ridge, even though it's listed as a flag stop at certain times, is almost always made by every train. There is a long stairway down an embankment from the parking lot to the station and crews know that there are often people on the way down the steps to get to trains that can't easily be seen by the crew, so it's easier to stop and look if anyone's rushing down to get the train.
R-7: Have you seen Eddington? Even as far as SEPTA stations go, it's pretty bare. While passing on Amtrak once I thought it was abandoned. And considering its proximity to Cornwells Hts, I'm wondering why it hasn't been!
An R8 ran through Ryers after having just started its trip from Fox Chase when another passenger and I were waiting on the Ryers platform. The engineer applied the brake as soon as he saw us, but he entered the next block before he stopped, so we had to walk down the track to climb aboard. The conductor apologized and said they rarely picked up anybody there.
Why don't they have the buzzers that I remember using on the 100 (norristown) line. You push the buzzer it turns on a light on the track so that they see someone is waiting for the train. It would be a good way to see when to stop.
The operator is smoking a cigar and you can smell it, do you:
Tell him to stop
Ask if it's Cuban and if so, where he got it
Ask if you can have a puff
Offer him some pot
The station agent gives you a Canadian quarter in your change, do you:
Make believe you were on vacation and show it to your dumbass friends
Ask politely to get an American quarter instead
Shout at the top of your lungs until the trouble is resolved
Jam it into the metrocard slot of the MVM.
You're riding in a 75-foot subway car with two other people, a big guy, and a shrimpy guy, all of a sudden, big guy begins to beat the crap out of the little dude, do you:
Get in there and protect the shrimp
Wait quietly but alertly for the next stop and get the hell out of there
Pull out your trusty handgun and fire at the big guy
Join in and beat up the little dude!
1) A -- or move to the next car. On 75'ers, just hold my breath!
BTW are operators allowed to smoke while operating?
2) A -- actually I would keep it as a souvenir. Don't ask why. I like collecting foreign coins. OR I can use it on the Garden State Parkway in NJ. Their tokens are the exact same size as the Canadian quarters so the exact change machine cannot tell! (GSP tokens are 35 cents each) BTW, my friends are not dumb.
3) B -- since I'm not a formidable fighter.
2) A -- actually I would keep it as a souvenir. Don't ask why. I like collecting foreign coins. OR I can use it on the Garden State Parkway in NJ. Their tokens are the exact same size as the Canadian quarters so the exact change machine cannot tell! (GSP tokens are 35 cents each) BTW, my friends are not dumb.
No, they are not, and the exact change machine CAN tell the difference and will not register Canadian quarters or dimes unless it is seriously out of calibration. (Canadian quarters and dimes are the same diameter as their US counterparts but are thinner, lighter, and of a different metallurgical composition.) On the other hand, an Israeli shekel (currently worth just over 20 cents US) is an exact match in size and weight and is nearly a match in electromagnetic characteristics for the Parkway token, similar enough to fool the machines that were used at headquarters to sort and roll tokens (I've gotten a shekel in several token rolls over the past few years).
Canadian nickels, although not exact matches for US nickels, are close enough that they usually will work.
Oh, and the Parkway hasn't sold tokens since last December - they're trying to foist EZ-Pass off on us. Tokens will be honored through the end of this year or possibly longer, depending on when the Legislature decides to hike the fares to cover EZ-Pass losses. (So much for Governor McGreedy's plan to eliminate the tolls in a few years.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes in fact the machines can't tell because I actually tried it. In fact, what happened was that we got a Canadian quarter part of the change that the person at the booth gave to us. He didn't notice it. We looked at our change while driving and noticed it.
We put the Canadian quarter and a dime in the exact change machine and the light changed to green.
Sorry for the misunderstanding in my previous post but I meant to say the Canadian quarter can be fooled by the American quarter in the Parkway machines and not the token.
... I meant to say the Canadian quarter can be fooled by the American quarter in the Parkway machines and not the token.
You got lucky. Most of the time it doesn't work. Also, if there happens to be an attendant watching in the booth (they do this from time to time to try and catch fare beaters) and the attendant notices the foreign coins (the coins are dumped into a tray in front of the attendant, bypassing the machine) you can be ticketed for failure to pay. (There was a case that received quite a bit of publicity in Monmouth County a couple of years ago... seems a public official from Asbury Park was feeding coinage from a Caribbean nation - Jamaica, I think - to the exact change machine... he had been there on vacation and noticed the similarity in size of the coins, and the distinct difference in the exchange rate, and brought back a couple of hundred dollars' worth for the purpose... he got caught by an attendant watching for fare beaters... otherwise I wouldn't have known any of this stuff.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wait a minute. You think a number is evil but you don't see anything wrong with theft?
Touche!
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes I find theft is very wrong but we only decided to do it because we received the coin part of the change that the person in the booth gave to me. If I had a Canadian quarter at home, (which I do) I wouldn't try to be a fare beater and use it.
If a station agent in the subway system inadvertently (or even deliberately) gives you a Canadian quarter and you then use that quarter on the Garden State Parkway, you have stolen from the New Jersey Highway Authority. You haven't stolen much, but surely someone who manages to attribute evil to a number also attributes evil to even small degrees of theft.
I wouldn't do that. I just used the quarter because someone else on the parkway used it and I just gave it back to the Parkway system. Don't carry this on too far, stealing is a very bad thing.
>>>Don't carry this on too far....<<<
OOOH, David, you've been warned.
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I wouldn't do that. I just used the quarter because someone else on the parkway used it and I just gave it back to the Parkway system. Don't carry this on too far. I do think stealing is a very bad thing.
You are a seriously disturbed person, please...seek help ASAP.
Peace,
ANDEE
What are you TALKING about? Do you think quarter usage disturbs you if I used it on the Parkway when I just got it one toll booth ago from a booth worker?
1)D
2)C
3)D
Wow ... 3 D's ... what do I win? :)
Cab time on 1689 signed up as a D with two green marker lights.:-)
Woohoo! Now somebody find me one of them front roll curtains that said "BRIGHTON BEACH" on it ... there WERE a few ...
FWIW I signed my IND box for a D train yesterday. Frankly, I prefer to see Coney Island on the bottom sign, which is what my lower destination curtain has. It all goes back to May 7, 1967 when our AA train went neck-and-neck with a D train down CPW and I saw the backlit Coney Island side signs.
The warm weather makes all the difference in the world on the hand cranks. The route crank turned easily compared to what it's like during winter.
1) B......if B is true then C then I ask if I can keep the cigar. If the answer is yes then Ill take it then D.
2) First A then D.
3) B..then at before the next stop C then get the hell out of there.
1. Tell him to stop
2. Ask politely to get an American quarter instead
3. Wait quietly but alertly for the next stop and get the hell out of there
1) Take a nap.
2) Get on the train, take a nap.
3) Take a nap.
I'm usually quite tired, as you can tell.
1) B then C. Not D, that weed cost me good money, I'm not sharing it. :-)
2) E, cry
3) D, he was asking for it.
1. B
2. A
3. D
1. E Hold my breath
2. B with "Eh?" added
3. B
1. B...whereever it is, it ought to be good if it's Cuban. It makes great gifts, y'know!
2. None of the above. I'm Canadian, so I'd just take the poor frightened thing back home to where it belongs!
3. B. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread, like they say.
-J!
How many watts does a subway train use? I know about the voltage but that doesn't tell me how much electricity a train uses.
How many watts does an AMTRAK loco. with Amfleets use compared to the usage on an AE train?
I know NJT trains (ALP-44 loco. with 7 cars) consume 950,000 watts while standing, and can produce up to 4,400,000 watts while moving on a wire with 12,000 V and 25 Hz. (That's how ALP-44 got its name)
BTW, why is frequency on the NEC 25 Hz when the frequency for electricity in the U.S. is 60 Hz?
actually 60 cycle juice wasn't standard when the PRR built the electrification project in the late 1910's. They had a 'dedicated' hydroelectric source at a dam/generator on the Susquehanna.
actually 60 cycle juice wasn't standard when the PRR built the electrification project in the late 1910's. They had a 'dedicated' hydroelectric source at a dam/generator on the Susquehanna.
Can you back me up on this information?
Also, where can I see photos of PRR railcars as I only know one design of them. When did the PRR first exist? I think Metuchen station was built in 1888 for that purpose.
The PRR used(s) the Safe Harbour Dam south of Columbia PA. This Dam still powers the Amtrak Harrisburg power district. This is why there are still power lines up on the abandonned A&S branch from Parksburg to Safe Harbour.
Lots of good Pennsy information at the web site of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society. I've been a member for the past twenty plus years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
25 cy was the early standard because it was a lot easier to generate
with the large, slowly-revolving machines of the day. Some Euro
railways use 16.6 cy.
25 cycle power also works better with brushed, series wound, motors that RR traction uses. It's less efficient in transformers, thus you need a heavier transformer to handle the power. The European - developed underfloor transformers that modern locomotives use can handle it, though. These days, there's no reason to use 25hz, as modern locomotives don't care about the frequency (they all convert it to DC anyway). 60hz allows you to get a lighter transformer, and this helps too.
I suspect if/when power semiconductor technology gets into the high voltage realm, you'll see at least developmental attempts at switching power supplies for railcars, to reduce the transformer size and weight significantly. Right now, it's probbably a bit of a technological stretch to chop 25kv up into a 200khz AC current and run it through an air core transformer and rectify it, but in 10 or 20 years, it may not be!
It's a semiconductor issue - high voltage high frequency transformers already exist - your TV set has one, and so does your CRT type computer monitor. The trouble is right now, semiconductors that operate at 25kv are quite exotic :)
25 cycle power also works better with brushed, series wound, motors that RR traction uses. It's less efficient in transformers, thus you need a heavier transformer to handle the power. The European - developed underfloor transformers that modern locomotives use can handle it, though. These days, there's no reason to use 25hz, as modern locomotives don't care about the frequency (they all convert it to DC anyway). 60hz allows you to get a lighter transformer, and this helps too.
I suspect if/when power semiconductor technology gets into the high voltage realm, you'll see at least developmental attempts at switching power supplies for railcars, to reduce the transformer size and weight significantly. Right now, it's probbably a bit of a technological stretch to chop 25kv up into a 200khz AC current and run it through an air core transformer and rectify it, but in 10 or 20 years, it may not be!
It's a semiconductor issue - high voltage high frequency transformers already exist - your TV set has one, and so does your CRT type computer monitor. The trouble is right now, semiconductors that operate at 25kv are quite exotic :)
Eventually, as power semiconductors develop, we may go in the
opposite direction, back to DC distribution! At DC, transmission
lines do not have AC resistance loss because of skin effect, and
there is no problem with reactance or EMI. If it were cost-effective
to step up and step down using high-voltage, high-power DC-DC
converters instead of bulky low-frequency transformers, that would
be the best way to transmit power.
And yes, pre-WW II AC electrifications used "universal" motors,
aka series-wound AC commutator motors. The primary difference
from DC motors is the lamination of the field pole pieces to
eliminate eddy current losses (the armature of a DC motor is already
laminated). I believe we had a long discussion about this
years ago. Does the GG1 use series motors or did they have ignitrons
or mercury arc rectifiers?
We certainly do have High Voltage DC transmission lines out here. Twho different ones in fact.
They are easy to spot since they have two wires on them instead of three.
Elias
Betcha they run predominantly north/south ... that's where the major DC "inrushes" occur, more so than east/west ...
Yes. My impression was that they were running North-North West to East South East.
Elias
Where is "here"......California?
Do you know what is done with the DC at the downstream end?
Is it converted mechanically, solid state, vacuum tubes?
no da' pe system .....
"Here" is Beautiful downtown North Dakota.
More people worked in the WTC than live in our state capitol.
You could take the entire population of Adams County, put them on the No7 train during rush hour, and the people from Flushing wouldn't know the difference.
The (A) train could stop in Amidon, North Dakota, but only if it stuck out of town at both ends.
I do not know whence that power comes or goes, but they use solid state devices to rectify it, and to chop it back up again into AC.
Elias
You can also do three wire DC transmission and save some copper as well as have two different voltages to work with - one of the old, old electrical engineering books at the relatives cottage has diagrams and explanations. I personally did it once on a boat I was working on where it was desirable to have 12 and 24 volts availible. This was accomplished by using two 12 volt car batteries connected in series to provide the 24 volts and a third wire was run out from the connection between the two batteries to provide the twelve volts for anything connected to it and either of the other two wires. If I can find the wiring diagram (which may well be at a friend's cottage), I'll scan it and put it online. By the way, the batteries were not charged by electricity generated the boat's motor but each one had to be removed and charged at night by an external charger.
-Robert King
This is exactly how I power my switch machines (Tortise), but I use two transformers with two rectifiers. to give me +12vdc 24vds -12dc across the three wires.
Why would anyone wast the time or mone to string a third wire for a transmission line is beyond me.
Elias
Increases your transmission capacity without going to a full set of four wires...that's why.
-Robert King
The GG-1 used just the motors. No rectifiers at all
Watts are a unit of power. Horsepower is a unit of power. According to the comversion, a horse can produce 744 watts. In Europe engines are rated in kilo-watts. To insult their stupid unit system just divide by 1000.
It's not a stupid system, since you're directly relates to the input power to the traction motors. HP is a fictional unit that has no real meaning.
In fact, HP was invented by James Watt.
Since not all horses are created equal, horsepower is just an arbitrary unit. HP is 550 foot-pounds per second.
Whereas a watt is 1 joule per second (1 kilogram-meter squared per second cubed). Everything is easy to convert.
According to here, the IRT 3rd rail delivers 45,000 kW of power. Of course, this number might have changed over the past 99 years.
Here's a Physics lesson: If you know the Volts (V) and the Amps (A), then Watts (W) is W=V*A. If you know the frequency and the energy, then Hertz (f) times Joules (J) will give you power (W=f*J). And remember, volts don't kill you, amps do.
Here's a Physics lesson: If you know the Volts (V) and the Amps (A), then Watts (W) is W=V*A. If you know the frequency and the energy, then Hertz (f) times Joules (J) will give you power (W=f*J). And remember, volts don't kill you, amps do.
I learned this formula in science class this past year along with some others.
P=V*I where P is power, V is voltage, and I is current.
According to Ohm's law, I= V/R where I is current, V is voltage, and R is resistance.
If anyone knows the resistance and the current of the catenary wires on the NEC, then you can just use the formula to calculate power. Does anyone know the resistance and the current of the NEC?
45 million watts? So that means a subway train at its peak consumes more electrical power than an ALP-44 loco. with 7 cars attached? What about normal conditions?
No, you aren't interpreting that information correctly. The third rail can be supplied with that much power - BUT - trains will consume much less. Remember that many more than just one train will be on the same third rail section circuit at a time, particularly if it is a large one. That figure is an upper limit to how much power can be availible in the third rail, not a power consumption figure, and just because it is an upper limit figure doesn't mean that it will ever be reached either.
-Robert King
And why not, a subway train is *10* cars long!
And it carries Many More People!
Elias
It may be that long but NJT with even 7 cars weighs more. The ALP-44 locomotive weighs 204,000 lbs., and with seven Comet IV cars, each ranging from 104,000 (trailer car w/o bathroom) to 113,000 lbs. (cab car w/bathroom) and each capable of seating a range from 113 to 125 people, this provides a larger scale scenario for electric consumption. And of course, these travel 75.5 mph during service.
Passengers do not have a cringing effect on electric consumption. Consider a passenger car. If you only have the driver, you consume an x amount of gas. If you have three or four other riders of reasonable weight, the amount of gas used really doesn't increase that much.
If a typical NYC Subway car held 120 people having an average weight of 130 lbs., the total weight would be roughly 20% of the car's weight. Calculate the ratio of a 3,000 lb. car with four passengers weighing an average of 130 lbs. This would render almost the same ratio of 17 1/3% of the car's weight.
In other words, passenger weight is insignificant in the amount of energy used to power an object if the object being powered already needs a significant amount of energy to run because of its weight, etc.
>>> If you only have the driver, you consume an x amount of gas. If you have three or four other riders of reasonable weight, the amount of gas used really doesn't increase that much. <<<
Where is your proff? What is the difference in gas consumption between a car with only a driver, and one with four other riders and luggage in the trunk? I think you would find a significant difference, (10-20%) particularly in stop and go city driving or driving over hilly terrain.
>>> If a typical NYC Subway car held 120 people having an average weight of 130 lbs., the total weight would be roughly 20% of the car's weight. <<<
Have you looked around in the subway lately? An average weight of 130 lbs.? Only if the subway car has a field trip of grade school kids and a large number of fashion models.
>>> In other words, passenger weight is insignificant in the amount of energy used to power an object if the object being powered already needs a significant amount of energy to run because of its weight, etc. <<<
Passenger weight is probably less significant once a train is under way, but the peak draw of current is while overcoming inertia to start the train moving, and there the additional power needed will be roughly proportional to the additional weight. Re-read your high school physics textbooks. There is no free lunch.
Tom
oh sorry! i thought you meant watts california !!!
I guess no one really answered your first question. The
peak power demand for a subway train happens right after the
group makes the transition into parallel. Notching amperage
on a fully loaded 75' car is about 400 (I'm sure Train Dude
or Engine Brake will jump in with the exact number). That
figure is per motor pair, so each car draws 800 amps for traction.
480kW per car or 3.84MW for a full-length train.
Standing still each car draws about 50 amps for the HVAC, lights
and other auxillaries.
Let's do a sanity check:
Watts are power, or energy per unit time.
Energy is force time distance, so watts are force times velocity.
Force is mass times acceleration (F=ma).
So, Power = mass*acceleration*velocity (P=mav)
Now let's make some guesses:
- A train has a mass of 250,000 kg.
- You want to be able to run the train up a 5% grade at 8 m/sec (about 20 mph).
Gravity is 9.8 m/sec/sec., so going up a 5% grade is equivalent to an acceleration of .05*9.8 = .5 m/sec/sec.
So the minimum power you need to get the train up the hill, not counting friction, air resistance, slippage, wastage, losses in the third rail, etc., is
250K * .5 * 8 = 1 Megawatt.
Given all the fudging, this seems to work out pretty well. However, you certainly need much less power on average, especially with the new trains that return power to the system as they slow down.
WATTS means a good connection to the third rail...regenerative braking packages even under Rev 8.3 on Bomba appear to remain turned off. CI Peter
he it is PE 1815 in Watts California !! ben dere done dat ' !!
LOL !! LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>he it is PE 1815 in Watts California !! ben dere done dat ' !!<<
....AND THREE RAILFAN WINDOWS !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Here are some good photos of the Newark City Subway at railroad.net (It's open except the forums don't work.)
Photo 1
Car #1 coasts into Penn Station, outbound, destined for Franklin Avenue. Only the outside platforms are open to the public. August 13, 2001.
Photo 2
This special tour of the shop tracks at Penn Station allowed us this sneak preview of Car #6, restored to its Public Service colors. The specially painted car was released in August to commemorate the final days of PCC service. The restoration is authentic, down to the PS logo hidden under a temporary NJT sign! July 20, 2001.
Photo 3
Passengers board Car #20 at Broad Street station outbound. August 13, 2001.
Photo 4
Car #21 arrives in Broad Street outbound, while Car #15 heads inbound towards Newark Penn Station. August 13, 2001.
Photo 5
The immaculate interior of Car #1 looks much like it did when the car first arrived in New Jersey in 1954. July 20, 2001
Photo 6
The rural charm of the Subway belies its urban character. Car #23 is seen here outbound at the Sussex Avenue overpass, not far from Orange Street station. June 18, 2001.
Photo 7
Cars #16 and #22 pass at Orange Street, the only grade crossing on the Subway. Just beyond the crossing, the Subway crosses over the NJT (former DL&W) Morris & Essex commuter line. June 18, 2001.
Photo 8
While it looks like the weeds are taking over the Subway tracks, the right-of-way is actually kept very clear. Car #15 is outbound at Davenport Avenue. August 13, 2001.
Photo 9
At Davenport Avenue station we see Car #19 inbound, Car #14 outbound. July 20, 2001.
Photo 10
Car #1 is inbound at Heller Parkway station. The pedestrian approach to the new Franklin Avenue/Branch Brook Park station can be seen starting at Heller Parkway just beyond the bridge July 20, 2001.
Photo 11
The extension of the Subway to Grove Street meant the last days of the Franklin Avenue loop were near. Car #16 is enlisted in work duty (hence the "SPECIAL" destination sign), while Car #23 navigates the tight (even by traction standards) loop. May 11, 2001.
Photo 12
Car #14 cruises inbound into the Franklin Avenue loop. The station is now called Branch Brook Park. Heller Parkway station can be seen in the background. July 20, 2001.
Photo 13
With flanges squealing loudly, Car #15 negotiates the very tight Franklin Ave loop. June 18, 2001.
Photo 14
A worker throws the switch to take siding on the new extension track at Franklin Avenue. On this day, Car #16 was hauling trash and workers. June 18, 2001.
Photo 15
A closeup detail of Car #19, showing the destination rollsign and visor over the windshield. Seen here at Franklin Avenue, May 11, 2001.
Photo 16
This special work car was inherited from the Public Service days, obviously cut down from an older car. NJT #5223 has been outfitted with a pantograph and continues to serve work crews today. This rare piece of equipment is seen here entering the new extension off the old Franklin Avenue loop track. Photo by Josh Weis, September 27, 2000.
Thanks for the photos. They're great. Much appreciated.
I tell it like it is but I don't know if what I saw is what it is. So I took a photo of it and you all can decide.
Big photo - http://www.brianweinberg.com/temp/deadbirds_big.jpg
Small photo - http://www.brianweinberg.com/temp/deadbirds_small.jpg
Actually those are two different photos, my bad...
Looks like they're getting to the R36 World's Fair cars. Note the "Subway Series" banner on two of the cars.
Subway Series Banners and the American Flags... :-(
No offense, but, I did. That's why the title of my post is "Subway Series Deadbirds spotted at 207th tonight." :)
Whoops, my fault, didn't read that title fully. No offense taken at all.
9356/7 AND 9360/1 were taken to 207 St for stripping.
9356/7 is in that pic with 9470/1.
I see that the Met and Yankee logos were removed on the #2 ends.
Will the signs on the #1 ends be removed too?
#9412 7 Flushing Local
My digicam is only 1.3MP so the car numbers did not come out clear at all. Do you just have really good eyes? Because I tried zooming in to no avail. Or have you seen these cars in person up there?
Dave, if you would like you can add my photo(s) to your webpage about deadbirds.
I photographed those cars in Corona Yard last October. My shot came out a bit blurry because I had to zoom in quite a bit, plus it was overcast.
Sorry to see them go.
Really a shame, isn't it? Those bastards aren't wasting any time.
so by the time i get there this august - setember 2002
ALL OF THE REDBIRDS .........& railfan windows will 'B' GONE !!!...??
i doubt it
................whew............!!
thats good newz !! man i will not have a railfan window 2 shoot out
of ...............sigh ........
There should still be some around for a while.
One more summer of air comnditioned Redbirds to go. CI Peter
sit man i remember a summer back in the 60s and 70s the air blew
HARD !!!!! you crybabies !!!!
wwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!
wwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!
"railfan windows will 'B' GONE !!!...??"
Nope, the railfan windows won't be gone until the 2020s. But you will only have it on manhattan-bound #7 trains. -Nick
no rail fan window 2 main street BUMMER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think they will be around for a while there are still some on the Dyre Avenue line,slowly the R-142's are coming in, got lucky and caught one of the old redbirds 7936, this class of redbirds are almost gone replaced by R-33's, I know one thing the Flushing redbirds are going fast, I saw quite a few R-62A'S over there.
I know that there is already an R36 in the transit museum painted in the World's Fair scheme, but I know there was also consideration for adding a subway series car once the fleet was retired. Is that still a possibility? -Nick
You're thinking of car #9306 (actually an R-33) removed from service about the time the museum opened (1976). I think more interesting than having a subway series car would be to place #9307 (its sister) in the museum, so you can see before and after the redbird conversion.
9306 has NO sister it is a single unit car.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd rather see a mainline R-33 in Redbird paint.
Greetings, all...
I'm happy to annouce that my photos of Coney Island are now online. I got the CD-ROM back from Wolf Camera today (and it cost me less than $10 to have everything scanned and burned to the CD) and they look much better than anything my crappy scanner could have done.
Here's a photo as it was scanned by my scanner.
Here's the same photo as scanned from the negative at Wolf.
I may actually show up there soon with a box of negatives so that I can get some more photos scanned, instead of me going through the hassle of doing it all myself.
Anyway, the Coney Island pics can be found in the "Photo Galleries" section of my site, The Nth Ward. I hope this is the first of many more photo essays on my site. Let me know what you think!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Big difference!! I'm impressed.
Nice to see you got a shot of Nathan's.
But not even one pic of the Stillwell Av station!! And you call yourself a railfan.
Turn in your passport!!!
I wworked with a guy once named "Charlie Walker" who maintained (and designed with me in tow) the "water baloon races" (ahem) "winner electronics" ... the games were rigged so that the barker could select a "winner" (most often blonde and stupid) by clicking their microphone button to select the slot (wrong vowel in last word) that would receive DOUBLE water pressure ... if they couldn't get in in between the lips, then tough noogies, the cheat didn't work) but if they could get that hose to squirt water into the clownhead, they'd get twice as much water into there as anyone who could ***AIM*** ...
Whoops ... gave away ANOTHER trade secret (I designed the rig and so did Charlie) and every barker wouldn't SCREW with us when we brought Tang to the tent for a rare visit. Oh yeah, to our younger, and more impressionable lot ... word to you mama ... "SIDEWALK ACT" ... learn it, know it, feel the sphincter tingle. Word. :)
Life *IS* rigged ... get over it, then you move upstate. Moo.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually, there's not much left of the Stillwell Terminal to take a photo of, unless you enjoy shots of blue plywood barricades.
Besides, aren't photos of subway stations pretty much a dime a dozen around here? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Ah don't worry about it Dave. The Sea Beach doesn't even go to Stillwell anymore and what good is a picture of Stillwell Avenue without the Sea Beach there. I got to do some real nostalgia a few weeks ago. I got to railfan on a Triplex at the railfan window on the Sea Beach Express route to Coney Island. One of the great thrills I've had in the past decade.
Hey Fred, wouldn't that rank as one of the biggest thrills of your life?:-)
You said it Steve. Coney still has the Cyclone, the greatest ride of all, it has a baseball team and Stillwell is being improved. Things are definately looking up.
Dave -
Thanks for the pictures. Can't remember how many years it's been since I last visited Coney Island.
Brings back a lot of memories -- as a kid taking the bus or subway to Coney Island, having a hot dog at Nathan's and spending the rest of the day at Steeplechase Park (admission and any 10 rides for $1.00 -- I guess my age is showing). I actually worked at Steeplechase the summer after my freshman year of college. It was 1964, the park's last year. Attendance was pitiful. I guess it was just a dinosaur who's time had passed. But a lot of us missed it when it closed.
Kind of like Riverview Park in Chicago, which lasted a few years longer (closed in 1967, right about the time I moved to Chicago from New York -- never had the pleasure of visiting it).
-- Ed Sachs
Nice pix. You shoulda ridden the wonder wheel, camera in hand, for aerial pictures of the W 8th / StillWell Ave stations ....
Since you like Coney Island so much, Happy Reading!
--Mark
Nice pix. You shoulda ridden the wonder wheel, camera in hand, for aerial pictures of the W 8th / StillWell Ave stations....
Glad you like them. I had been meaning to get pics of Coney Island for years, but whenever I visited it was either too dark for my shitty camera, or I didn't even have a camera with me.
When I was there with a camera Saturday morning, all the parks and rides were closed, so there was no way to ride the Wonder Wheel. Most everything was open by the time heypaul and I returned that evening, but I had already used up all the exposures on the camera and there wasn't much daylight left anyway. Hopefully next time. I've ridden the Wonder Wheel before, and the views are pretty incredible.
-- David
Chicago, IL
A real gem Dave. Congratulations for a job well done. I used to be a New Yorker decades ago, but there are some things I cannot get out of my system despite the passage of time. The Cyclone is one. I will not begin my sojurns in the Big City unless I can get out to Coney Island and ride my favorite ride of all. Yes, I take the Sea Beach out there. Coney Island is making a comeback of sorts as you said, but I would like to see a real revival take place. The baseball team is a good start. Again good work.
Okay, I was coming back from Philly via the cheap method with some friends yesterday. We specifically aimed for NJT's 5:38PM Express train from Trenton to NY which, as per NJT's June 17th schedule, skips all stops between New Brunswick and Newark Airport. SEPTA's May 26th schedule indicates it as a local, but the web site says NJT will change their schedules so I didn't worry about it.
But, upon arrival in Trenton, all the various boards indicated it was a local! And, the announcer was announcing all local stops! Other customers were also peeved at this expecting an express ride, and the response at the ticket office to anyone asking was "the 5:38 to New York is on track 5". They didn't know what the train was supposed to be, either.
On board the train, the conductors were puzzled as well. ("Did she just announce us as a local?") But it turns out the train really was an express.... much to the dismay of several customers bound for Metropark.
There was not one schedule for anything in Trenton station, perhaps the station announcer had not gotten the June 17th one yet? Either way, I hope she didn't make the same mistake today.
Why did NJT change their schedules already? The last one changed on May 19th.
Summer, I suppose. Looking in my archive of NJT schedules such close proximity between changes is not without precedent.
Due to heavy crowding caused by 9/11. They also plan further changes in August.
What if AMTRAK shuts down? Does anyone have an update? Now people traveling on the NEC in NJ and Penn Sta. NY will crowd the already crowded NJT trains.
What about NJT's Clockers scheduled to be received in 2006? Can this be achieved if AMTRAK doesn't get the $205 million loan to keep it running?
I have asked NJT this very question via e-mail and they have not see fit to give me any response. Not even a "we are studying our options."
Which question did you ask them? Probably you should have sent them the mail flagged with High Priority so they'll get to those first.
Yea sure...thanks for your expert advice...NOT
Peace,
ANDEE
You seem to be bugged out. Care for a chew toy? What if I started doing the same thing you're doing and SubTalk will be rambling on with the most annoying commentor in history.
>>>...and SubTalk will be rambling on with the most annoying commentor in history.<<
IMO, you have already achieved that honor.
Peace,
ANDEE
I just sent them a second request and flagged it as highest priority. I wonder if I 'll get a response ot if the nickel subway fare will return anytime soon. (I doubt both!)
"flagged with High Priority "
What a JOKE! I'm still laughing.
Sure you *can* use the Priority flags for that purpose, but that is not what they are for.
The are used by the mail server, and "High Priority" won't move a Packet faster, because the the routers don't look to see what is in a packet.
When I send a photo, I send it LOW priority so that if it bounces, the MX server at the other end desn't send the whole darn thing back, but only a notice that it bounced. I have forgotten exactly what the servers do with the other prioritis, but it has to do with how the MX server handles the packets, not not if someone is actually goting to read your message.
Elias
"I have asked NJT this very question via e-mail and they have not see fit to give me any response. Not even a "we are studying our options." "
That's probably because they have no idea what they'll do. That's not meant to be disparaging towards NJT, but for starters, the likelihood that Amtrak's NEC operation isn't running on July 1st is pretty remote. As in the past, the assumption just about everywhere is that somebody will step in.
On the slim chance that it does shut down, it would seem logical that NJT should be trying to negotiate with Amtrak to operate the NEC tracks and Penn Station (as well as the Clockers).
The problem with that theory is that Amtrak would have no incentive to return their calls. It would be in Amtrak's best interest for a shut down on 7/1 to wreak havoc on commuter operations. If Amtrak shut downs on 7/1, they need more people to be impacted -- not less.
CG
There were a couple of new trains added on the NEC for the new June schedule. NJT can acquire the extra slots for the NEC/Coast lines and add service if Amtrak goes out.
There were a couple of new trains added on the NEC for the new June schedule. NJT can acquire the extra slots for the NEC/Coast lines and add service if Amtrak goes out.
Tell me about it - they change the schedule effective June 17 and don't tell anyone about it.
I was coming home Wednesday night from the Mets game expecting to take the 10:43 Trenton local. It's about 10:35 and I'm buying a paper and bottled water, and I hear an annoucement:
"Last call for the 10:37 New Brunswick Express leaving from Track 4 making stops at Newark Penn Station, EWR, Metropark, Metuchen, Edison, New Brunswick, and Jersey Avenue."
I thought I was hearing things, but lo and behold, I went down to Track 4 and there it was. They added a new train that terminates at Jersey Avenue and then gets routed into the yard. I was home about 20 minutes before I normally would be with the local from hell.....
Say what you want about NJT, but I think this new guy Warrington is the best thing that could happen to the agency.
Cars 6971-75 are in the process of being delivered to East 180th Street Yard.
Also, Cars 6461-65 are among the latest R-142s to join the operating ranks.
-Stef
i saw 6441-6445 testing on the Drye line today
Good! There should be no more cars sitting in storage.
-Stef
Today was alittle crazy My T/O radio battery goes dead not a problem until 50 St. My T/O informs me we had a live rat running about in the first car. The rat was not giving up the spot by the storm door. So I call it in and Control tells me to tell my T/O he should try to chase the rat off the train. OFcause that didn't sound right so we waited for assistance at Times Sq. and caused some trains to run EXP from 79 to TQ. 72 St was being bypassed at the time. We where there for about 8 Minutes before someone got fed up with the delay and killed the rat.
Thats something you don't see everyday! I know some people what to give me welcome back gifts but a Railfanning rat is over doing it! Hehe.
How did they kill the rat? Spare us none of the gory details!
Easy one. Officers responded, demanded to see a valid metrocard, rat gave them a hard time, warning shot through the liver. Sheesh. :)
Rats are becoming a big problem on the platform on the broadway line since the freakin trash isn't being emptied (by WM trucks or garbage train) at ends of platforms frequently. I was traveling up the Q express and as we were stopped at 34st there's a refuse storage room at the front car end uptown. I counted 8 rats squirming through the trash there. Poison isn't working, or isn't being laid enough...Another time I was by Fulton Street on the 4/5 downtown platform, walking to the exit from the front, a rat scurried on the platform the opposite direction I was going, and I almost fell off the damn platform trying to avoid it!! :-( :-(
The TA cut back on pickups with the trains to dave money. One day last week I was pulling into Roosevlt Ave, North Bound with my G and three bags of trash fell onto the track right in front of me. I am lucky I did not go BIE becouse of them. I called Command and they did nothing. The Trash was still on the track the next day.
Robert
Funny, this month's Transit Transit features the Garbage Train and Trucks.
They have built more Refuse Rooms because of the cut backs in running the train.
They Rat Patrol only works over night and there are only a few of them anyway.
Refuse rooms are rodent hotels...will the MTA ever learn? So we have a group of people IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT patrolling refuse rooms and beating rats with sticks supposedly? Or they might go "shooo rats shoo" and magically the rats )who have an extrodinary language skill) curse them out and jump back into the trackbed.
HEY...I saw a BIG rat just today....He ambled up to me on THE PLATFORM, I thought it was a cat. Scared the shit outta me.
Peace,
ANDEE
I still think of the one I saw on, I believe it was, Utica Avenue back in '99. I was waiting for the #3 train and I heard this noise and all of a sudden this big ugly thing scurried right past me like I wasn't even there. He went on the tracks and disappeared. Those creatures aren't even afraid of us. Yuk, they are hideous, nothing like my pet mouse Schuyler. He's a little pal of mine.
You have a pet mouse? That's cute.
I'd have one too, but my cat, Subway, would have issues.
Peace,
andee
Go to London. From what I heard there are a breed of misqutoes living in the subways there that eat human dander/dead skin cells that brush off people.
I guess if it wasn't wearing a vest, it wasn't supervisory. :)
Maybe it was a beakie. I've always heard they were eager to rat out unsuspecting employees.
Heh. Somebody check its time card. :)
Where's the Pied Piper when you really need him?
Fundraisers of course. :)
Yeah, the refuse rooms fill up so they have to put the garbage on the platforms anyway. The garbage doesn't get picked up often enough because the road gets delayed when the garbage trains' crews do their thing or General Orders prevent the garbage trains from making their scheduled runs.
That would have been a very interesting compensation case!
Salaam's going to be honked off that it hogged the fan window. :)
Especially on the R-40 slants.
I wonder if it met The Pigeons from the Rockaways ....
--Mark
I met those pigeons once. Don't they live above the token booth at B90 St?
I thought their names were Gwendolyn and Cecily. Oops, that was Cecily and Gwendolyn. Or, as their flatmates used to call them, the Coo-Coo Pigeon Sisters.:-)
I thought that the Pigeons were from the odd couple. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds as though you had to be there.
Leaving 242nd this evening I peeked into the rear car's rear cab and saw the speedometer wildly jumping from 60mph up to 96mph! When we started slowing down for 238th it seems the speedo went back to normal. Would have made a great photo if it wasn't so bouncy. But at 90+mph, of course it would be bouncy!
I'll play the part of salaamallah tonight:
Ha!! only could happen in an r62!! lol! probably wuz a redbird! man those things cna fly!! lol! r142s could never even dream about doing dat! lol
sorry, just couldn't resist
no U just want to derail......come on folks 96MPH ???....... !!
then lets see how fun dat' is !!!
besides i do know ONE MOTORMAN who will let me shoot inside his cab!!
ha ha ha ha ha !!!
Well M-2/4/6 top out at 94 if your lucky (officially 90).
I don't believe it was 90+ mph, Was it all on straight track?? It's no way in hell a NYC Subway can achieve that speed!
Obviously, the speedometer was malfunctioning.
David
Yeah, they do that. :)
Back in the days when you could tell by the pitch of your motors exactly how fast you were rolling, we needed none of that. And when the 32's came, you could still tell by the speed of the steel past your eyeballs in the side window. But we knew what 15 was on a diverge and we could shoot the GT's with impunity. Pity TO's need to take their eyeballs OFF the road these days to play the old Ed Koch "how'm I doing?" game.
I must be getting old ... heh ... I remember when the word "progress" meant "improvement." Whoops.
90 mph would have equated to fourth-space E or fifth-line F on the treble staff on the R-1/9s - if the gear pitch at that speed would have been even audible and assuming the motors hadn't birdcaged.
They wouldn't do 90 - not to worry. Even off the end of an open bridge they'd be hard pressed to be doing 75 by the time they hit the cement. :)
TGV engines/trucks/electronics/controller in a Subway car frame/body.
Not unless they were geared diffently.
You guessed it.
yea !
The Speedometer was damn sure malfunctioning, there is not enough track to even make it to 90+ mph.
Besides it would of broke the R-44 Subway Record of 88 mph, that can never happen.
Railtracks down Mt. Everst.
If you diable all fuses/circut brakers and give it 700 to 800 volts, disble tripcock, give it good track (Metro-North quality) it should be able to do it sustained. Be sure to keep a fire extingisher near by because the train WILL catch fire.
That proves it. Locals are faster than expresses.
BTW, the 6 Redbird I rode on Tuesday hit 41 approaching 96th (NB).
Heh. Betcha you could have done 105 if you'd waved your hand a little harder. :)
Musta been a radar type speedo.
Remember, radar is perfect ;)
Traffic radar units generally can't hit the broad side of a barn in anything less than perfect conditions...
I'll bet the train was doing 40 while at a station stop.
Only until it drops to zero as soon as the "autozero" electronics catch on to the groovy new light show in front of the sensor and recalibrate to a completely new invalid INTEGER pointer. Barney Fife will be your arresting officer today. :)
The 1 has the tendency to do that often. Although usually it'll slow to about 10.
There had been one car that did 99 while standing still, and proceeded to acurately keep speed backward, ie when the train was moving at 10mph, the speedometer showed 89
If that was possible to jump from 0 to 90 in 4 blocks' worth of track, I'll give you a (hypothetical) million bucks.
It's simply not logically possible for such a train to be going at this speed safely. If there was a C/R aboard he would have hit the emergency brake if it ever got to 90.
What is the speed limit? 75? On expresses like the Brighton I know they at least do about 50 to 60 for express stretches between Prospect Park and Kings Highway....especially Newkirk to Kings. I was 13 when I last rode that, and it was a blast even at 50.
Calgary LRTs on the south line do usually 85 to 90 km/hr between long stretches...but that's prob'ly nothing compared to the Brighton racecourse...er...express stretch.
(I remembered seeing a 120 limit on a stretch in Hong Kong between University and Tai Po Market. That would've been a blast if the T/O did do 120 on that baby. Those Kinisharyo Millenniums shoot off like a rocket!)
Ah, the memories.
-J!
What is the purpose of both pantographs being raised on this AEM-7?
See all that white stuff? Its called SNOW. When it SNOWS SNOW builds up on the wires. Having two pans up knocks the SNOW off.
I know what the white stuff is, Did Amtrak lay that down as a rule?
It's common on any system that uses overhead power. PRR did it, NH did it, EL did it, etc. They do it in Europe, too.
Doesn't that set up dodgy resonances in the transformer? Or is the second pantograph isolated from the electrical circuits?
AEM7
Engineers raise two pantographs on an AEM-7 because of ice. Ice, not snow, can prevent pans from collecting power. Therefore, they use the front pan as an ice blader to remove ice, and then use the rear pan to collect power.
Chaohwa
"Doesn't that set up dodgy resonances in the transformer?"
Nope. Both pans collect power. They are tied together right there on the roof BEFORE it goes into the motors or whatever. Even a colapsed pan is charged.
Just like on the subway cars: all of the shoes are tied together. If one is hot, they all are hot.
Elias
"Just like on the subway cars: all of the shoes are tied together. If one is hot, they all are hot."
Huhh, that means if you get nicked by third rail when against the wall (track work) your dead?
It's not the Snow so much as it is the ICE.
Snow would just be brushed off by a single pan. Ice on the otherhand is tougher, and not a good conductor of electricity. So the first pan breaks the ice off, and the second pan collects the electricity.
Elias
Nice color sceam!
Where exactly was this picture taken?
By the way, are you sure "pantograph" is the correct word? I always thought a pantograph was something used for writing.
- Lyle Goldman
It's the right word, though it's occasionally misspelled.
Main Entry: pan·to·graph
Pronunciation: 'pan-t&-"graf
Function: noun
Etymology: French pantographe, from pant- + -graphe -graph
Date: 1723
1 : an instrument for copying (as a map) on a predetermined scale consisting of four light rigid bars jointed in parallelogram form; also : any of various extensible devices of similar construction (as for use as brackets or gates)
2 : an electrical trolley carried by a collapsible and adjustable frame
- pan·to·graph·ic /"pan-t&-'gra-fik/ adjective
-Hank
It seems the orginal poster found it on the Clark State Community College library server (right click over picture, check properties). Would it better to list the URL instead of porting the picture to this site? It may save bandwidth.
Probably not. Everyone who reads this board is going to look at the picture anyway, so you’re saving them a click. (Aplogies to the one person who has image-loading turned off).
An external reference such as appeared in the post, merely causes your browser to ask Clark State for the picture; the bits don’t travel through the nycsubway.org server.
John
Thanks John
Phil H
Can the Third Rail handle high voltages such as 25,000 volts? Or is Catenary wire the only way to carry high voltages?
-AcelaExpress2005
A charged object requires about one inch of dry air around it for evey 1000 volts else the current will arc and jump the gap. Try to answer your own question now.
Mike, that's 1" for every 10,000 volts IIRC.
It's even higher, Steve. The figure for the dielectric strength
of air is typically given as 3MV/m, or about 77kV/inch. This
varies considerably based on the shape of the two conductive surfaces
across which the spark will jump, the above figure being for
parallel plates..
However, dielectric breakdown isn't the only consideration. The
engineering guidelines for separation of high voltage lines from
grounded structures are much more conservative. Mike's 1" per kV
seems reasonable, thinking about how close 11.5kV lines are hung
from tunnel ceilings.
Jeff, back in the old days when working on TVs we'd check the output of the flyback transformer by holding a grounded screw driver at the X-former output. If we drew a spark of 2" or better we knew that the flyback was putting out 20-25 KVAC at the 15 KHz scanning frequency. Of course we didn't take humidity into account but it was nowhere near 1"/KVAC. Just a thought!
When you did the spark test, did you bring the screwdriver close
and then pull back until the arc went out?
There are different kinds of arc conduction, sort of like static
and kinetic friction. A very large voltage is required to strike
an arc through otherwise quiescent air. Once there is conduction,
either from an initial dielectric breakdown, or from another source
such as a mechanically draw arc, a much lower voltage is required
to sustain it. 25kV at 2" seems like a long striking distance, but
a reasonable sustaining distance. Think about spark plugs.
Comparable voltages, about 1/10th the distance.
volts/inch required to sustain an arc also depends on the amount
of current, air flow, etc. Think about a 600V contactor. The 600
won't jump across a gap of 0.10", but when interrupting a flow of
several hundred amps, the arc length has to be about 6" before
it will extinguish (the arc length being longer than the contact
gap distance because of the magnetic blowout).
The 1"/kV guideline, if that is the real number, has to account for
creepage across the insulators due to surface dirt, and for flashover
once an arc is struck, e.g. by a bouncing pan.
The "flyback test" involving the 3A3 or equivalent rectifier tube involved lifting the plate cap off the tube and letting it hang in midair. You'd then put the blade of a screwrdiver against the corner of the flyback cage and start aiming the POINT of the screwdriver towards the tube cap socket until you drew an arc. You'd then pull back to break the arc. Pointy things have different characteristics from flat plates in parallel ... pretty much anything over 3/4 inch of draw from a typical 25 kV AC supply at the cap was good. And to get 25kV on the ultor of the CRT, typically that AC was really 34-40 kV prior to being half-wave rectified by the tube.
I don't miss the "sparky days" all that much - paid crap. :)
Hehehe. Ever launch yourself doing that? Color sets sure make nice arcs, B&W are no fun.
For a real good time, try servicing a B&W set with a metal picture tube. Most didn't bother with an 'expensive' insulating shield over the tube. I think the color sets with 21AXP22s and 21CYP22s had them, though. I think the CYP22 was metal and it's A version was glass, with a funky connection and resistor assembly. I don't have a CTC-7, so I wouldn't know :(
WOW: Unca Steve likes the juice!!! Never thought of THAT dynamic test running a 4CX10000B for POTENTIAL at 10 KW RF. So how much power did Taco Bells gimmick light actually draw from knife switch to ribbon fuse on first point?? Fire good...a dummy dropped a live bug into a puddle of oil coated water...pit ladder missing.
Alternate it so it can't.
No. Third rail is restricted to DC operation, and generally below 1.5kv
There are a few 1000 volt and slightly higher operations in the world, but most are sub 1,000 V, and all are DC.
2.4kv DC was tried on an interurban in the teens, and found to be hazzardous and not very well running anyway.
Catenary can be any voltage and AC or DC, but the trend is to go to high AC voltages, as there's a current limit to what a wire can carry, and it's more severe than a third rail's limits.
600V DC can be used in light rail. 1.5kv DC is used in larger light rail systems and some mainline applications. 3kv DC is common in some countries (Italy comes to mind). 11kv 25hz is the standard south of NY, 12kv 60hz is above to New Haven. 15kv 16hz is used in Germany and Switzerland, 25kv 50 hz is common in Europe and elsewhere, 25kv 60Hz is seen in the US and Japan and other countries that art 60hz. 50kv 50 or 60 hz is used on a few lines in the world, all freight. Clearences are quite large, and it presents operational troubles, though it's used successfully.
Incedently, ultra high voltage - 500,000 volts or more - transmission lines are sometimes DC, not AC. There are a number of DC transmission lines in the world, and in the US.
One of the reasons for EHV lines being DC is earth magnetic field effects and sunspot activity since these tend to be near DC in nature and DC on AC power lines ia a very bad thing for transformers. Just thought I'd add that for the curious. Many widespread major outages on grids are the result of induced DC from sunspot activity blowing transformers or at least tripping off breakers.
The higher the voltage, the lower the current. That is why the light and thin catenary wires are able to carry its energy at high voltages, while the 600V or 700V powered line needs a big, heavy 3rd rail to carry its energy.
Power Transmission 101: Motors are motors...AC motors are rated by wattage and WILL always attempt to run at their wattage so if the voltage drops - they draw more current - and if the voltage drops enough they will draw far more current than the windings can handle. DC motors are basically resistive loads and in series-wound applications like subway traction motors 'should' be inherintly current limiting...that is, lower voltage does not draw larger current and reduces traction power. Higher DC voltages produce lower I/R (current/resistance) loss in power transmission but present greater possibilities in arcing...the #7 line uses trackage of LIRR that may be 750 VDC which could fry IGBT control systems of R142s.
CI Peter, 86ser of DeadBoids.
"#7 line uses trackage of LIRR that may be 750 VDC which could fry IGBT control systems of R142s.
CI Peter, 86ser of DeadBoids. "
Where would the 7 line use LIRR trackage?
I am not the Subway historian so I cannot say where trackage may be shared with LIRR. I knew of third rail problems on the #7 and after adjusting a zillion shoe beams and third rail shoes, it was explained to me that certain sections of trackage have potential greater than 700 volts, attributed to sharing with LIRR. While there are certain shoe beam gauges used specifically with trainsets, all trainsets maintain the same shoe height for third rail contact. R62s are now replacing the Redbirds...they have 'E-cam' group boxes but none of the sensitive electronics common to the R142/R142A trainsets. Hope my explanation was of help. CI Peter
They probably are not sharing any track, but may well be sharing a power distribution thingie somewhere.
Elias
I think you've been told misinformation. Unless something has
changed radically in power distribution, the NYC subway and the LIRR
are completely separate. I doubt that any NYCT trackage is above
650 volts.
DC traction motors are very forgiving.
LIRR equipment was *built* for 600 volts.
The upped the power to the Third Rail to 750 volts for transmission and distribution reasons, not for operating reasons.
NYCT would have no trouble *Running* their trains on LIRR tracks, and how auxiliary power (lights and A/C would) would work depends on how they are maiking it. Motor Generator sets would be no problem, Transformers might need different taps, a switching power supply (sush as found on your computer) should have no problem with it at all.
Elias
I disagree. Upping the subway third rail voltage to 750 would
cause a bunch of problems. The traction motors, HVAC motors, static
converters and lighting inverters are all designed and tested
for a 600V nominal input. At 750, many would probably fail.
Another problem is system safety: at 750 volts, the balancing
speed of trains would increase by several MPH.
When the R-44 was testing back in the 70's, on the LIRR it set a record of 88 mph, but half the motors burned out because the Traction Motors were designed to only take in 600 volts not 750.
From what was earlyer discussed, the motors didn't burn out. All accesries would. Lights, had a specific problum.
No, what specifically happened was "bird-caging" - centrifugal force and excess voltage contributed to the unravelling of motor windings.
The damage was not as catastrophic as motors actually burning out.
Incidentally, the R44 also managed 77 mph with half the motors cut out (to simulate a crush load).
To this day, the R44 holds the world speed record for subway cars.
I would think they use same substaions near sunnyside and in the underground & stations in queens. This would be only true IF they did actually do it, but I'am not sure of it.
The higher the voltage, the lower the current. That is why the light and thin catenary wires are able to carry its energy at high voltages, while the 600V or 700V powered line needs a big, heavy 3rd rail to carry its energy.
In other words, if the 3rd rail was capable of high voltages, it wouldn't need the large 3rd rail it has now.
The higher the voltage, the lower the current. That is why the light and thin catenary wires are able to carry its energy at high voltages, while the 600V or 700V powered line needs a big, heavy 3rd rail to carry its energy.
In other words, if the 3rd rail was capable of high voltages, it wouldn't need the large 3rd rail it has now. It would be incompatible and almost impossible to do.
Current means AMPs.
Not to nitpick but current does not mean amps. Electrical current is measured in Amps or amperes.
ROTFL
Here is an RTO/Signal question: Tonight I rode through the GO
in the 53 St tubes. All traffic was using the southbound
track. My northbound E train took the Y/Y lineup. Beyond the
crossover and down the hill a little, there was a homeball
giving Y/G. There are no other wrong-rail signals until you
reach the top of the hill, where there is a lunar white
approach signal and then the homeball for the crossover, also
with a lunar white. Beyond the crossover, we transition from
the original GRS signals to the new USS stuff from the QBP
Master Tower project. This includes a new US&S signal case
that has had its doors missing for 2 years. There is one more
automatic beyond the crossover which clears on time to effect
speed control over the diamond. The contrast between the slender,
refined GRS tunnel signals and the gaudy oversized USS signals is
striking. But, I digress.
I noticed that the m/m operated very cautiously, seemingly slowing
down to verify the opposing stop arms were down at each signal
in the other direction. My question: what is the rule about this,
or is it covered on a GO-by-GO basis? Certainly, when operating
wrong-rail through territory that does not have traffic control
on the signals, one has to watch each arm go down since you are
effectively keying by each signal in reverse. However, 53 St, like
most river tubes, has traffic locking. All of the opposing stops
will be down. In fact, if it follows typical practice, that first
homeball that displayed Y/G is checking that all of the intervening
opposing stops are driven clear. So, is this a rulebook requirement,
part of the GO, or was the m/m just being overly cautious?
Sorry Unca Jeff for kicking in here, but I feel the need for penance after being driven into a number of off-topics in the Amtrak thread. When wrong-railing back in the 70's as a result of service redirects, you learned to be careful even if the aspects were correct out of simple mistrust ... I'm GUESSING that hasn't changed much with time and given the propensities for severe discipline if you dump in recent years, I'd guess that the TO was being cautious and making SURE that they had visuals before they hit "whatever."
When in an absolute block, you still don't trust that the T's will be on the floor even if the signals tell you so. Extra points for a troublesome line from what I've read here. If I was at the throttle, I'd be doing the same thing though I have a long history of being excessively timid. I'd bet such was the case here too.
Whew! Something about trains this visit! :)
Slotting relays only check opposing stops for signals in the direction of normal traffic flow.
Interesting that you passed a holdout one train length past the X-over. It seems they could use both tunnel tracks to relay if Lex was used as a terminal. Typical IND superlative complexity! (I had my dictionary handy)
I'll trust your interpretation of typical circuits, but if the track
were signalled equally in both directions, wouldn't there be opposing
stop checks? 60 St was resignalled a few years ago and there are
intervening automatics in the "wrong" direction of traffic.
In 53 St, there is nothing to effect speed control down the grade.
I've seen that exact relay move done at 53/Lex. Once the revenue
collector was on the n/b and the road was behind it. To reduce
delay to the road train, the collector crossed over to the s/b side.
True bi-directional track knocks the opposite stops down when traffic is "swung" the other way, but 53rd sounds like some kinda hybrid. I've ridden GO's wrong-rail through Cranberry, and it was the same situation, with no automatics, and it seemed like the TO was running "restricted" or at least carfeully. The tubes in question were'nt designed for super-high traffic volume in the "wrong" direction.
Re: Lex Relay: That's why the IND rocks, there is a truckload (carload?) or flexibility built into the original design.
An interesting thing to study would be whether the little revenue-train hijiinks you described happens more with a local tower operator and less with a master tower. It seems like a Twr/O in a wayside tower might be more in tune with the delay that the revenue train was causing than someone at QBMT watching blips on the monitor, and playing minesweeper.
*-talk amongst yourselves-*
Why would one want to wrong rail thru 53rd anyway? It just reduces available service frequency in both directions.
The following would be much simpler if 53rd were out of action in one direction:
(E) WTC - 8th Av Local - Lexington Av (Reversing on the operational 53rd St tube track)
(F) Culver - 6th Av Local - 63rd St - Queens Express - Hillside
(G) Smith / 9th - Crosstown Local - Queens Local - Continental
(R) Bay Ridge - Broadway Local - 60th St - Queens Express - Jamaica
(V) 2nd Av - 6th Av Local - 63rd St - Queens Local - Continental
We're talking about a GO during the midnight hours. Headways are
20 minutes.
I would go with overly cautious. Possibly he had never done this before at this location, or never at any location. Since operating wrong rail is not an everyday thing for most T/Os, you do find the occasional hesitancy since they don't know where the next signal is. that Y/G he passed told him the next signal was red, but didn't tell him where that signal is located.
The rulebook allows us to operate at whatever the posted speed for the area is (or however fast we can get the train to go if no posted speed restrictions), assuming that we are under signal protection. No signal protection, we are supposed to proceed at 10mph. Of course not everybody abides by said rule - go ride the northbound Grand St Shuttle between Grand and Bway/Laf and let me know if it's moving at 10.
No signal protection, we are supposed to proceed at 10mph.
I rode that trip once when the signals were shut off and all the arms tied down. We waited at 23rd/Ely for a train coming the other way to clear, and the T/O passed a baton (for lack of a better word - it was a foot-long stick painted black with white tape spiraled around it) to our train, and then we took off like we were being chased by hell-hounds or something - easily the fastest trip I've had through those tunnels. I expect were were operating at the maximum speed for the equipment (at least on the uphill part).
Why were all trains using the southbound track?
- Lyle Goldman
Now running, a classic film from 1967 shot on the THIRD AVENUE EL and featuring live shots of LoV's and Steinway cars (including a MAGNIFICENT sound stage mockup) is running at this moment on the STARZ! Action channel ...
Runs again on June 25th at 6:30AM if you want to tape it ... direct link to Starz for details is here:
http://www.starzsuperpak.com/se/action/title.html?version_id=3603&episode_num=-1&the_view=ShowAll
If you'd like to see the Bronx third avenue el in action shots and "be" inside a Steinway LoV, this movie's worth peeking at ... it's on now if you happen to be reading this as I post it - next shot on Tuesday morning, the 25th ... if you HAVE Starz, the page I link to has an email "remind me" option ...
Wow ... MORE LoV's!!! Watching FLIX now: "Sorry, Wrong Number" with Barbara Stanwyck, Burt Lancaster, Ann Richards (1948) ... House on 96th, FBI Story or a few others come to mind ... am I going to DIE and head off to the other side in a LoV? (promises, promises heh)
Oh, how I miss the sounds and smells of the oldsters on the NYC rails!
Those scenes light my fire too. House of 92 St I believe was High-v's as was Sorry Wrong Number. [BTW a 3 Stooges flick was a cut-up on 92 st. can't think of the name of it] The FBI Story bored me to death xcept fo the LowV scenes. Try "Luck of the Irish, although that may be staged. The Wrong Man with Henry Fonda had some nice R1-9 scene; Naked City, Somebody up There Likes Me' BMT Standards. There are too many for me to think of...The 1947 "Kiss of Death" had a brief 3rd Ave el scene and a gorgeous shot of a NYCentral Pacific with the heavyweight coaches I liked so much; Plenty of shows had Manhattan el MUDC's: Doctor and the Girl, Dark Corner, Tales of Manhattan, O'Henry's Full House,Port of NY, the Lost Weekend for some. Had some recent shows [by my standards] with good scenes of the moder Chicago el. Try Fort Apache the Bronx...lots of Redbirds in MTA colors, and a good show too [Paul Newman's girlfriend..wow]
I haven't seen "The House on 92nd Street" in over 30 years. I think it wore out. I loved the movie. It starred William Eythe and he got those Nazi bastards in New York who were up to no good. I remember Joe Sawyer played a Hitlerite bragging about how great German good was. Well it ain't bad but would anyone choose it over my Dago food?
Yeah, those scenes did the trick for me last night during a long long night of code torture. Just as I was getting really gloomed out, saw that on the teevee and perked right up. Alas, more code work tonight and no foamer glass so far. :)
Was the old Hudson Terminal concourse the shopping plaza at the WTC, mostly the eastern edge.
I don't think so, but I'm not certain. I think Hudson terminal, at least the track area, was father east than the WTC shopping plaza. Then again, think about the location of the E train WTC station and how it was right next to the shopping plaza but well east of the 1/9 line makes me wonder...
It was at a lower level. The shopping plaza was mostly one level down (the level of Borders' basement, the E train terminal, and the N/R). The Hudson terminal tracks were at least 2 if not 3 levels down. They were east of the 1/9, west of the N/R, and south of the E.
This is correct. Some of the old trackbeds are now used by delivery trucks.
They aren't used NOW, they were used before the massacre.
The Hudson Terminal concourse was on the same level approximately as the N/R tracks. There was a direct entrance/exit from the southbound N/R to the HT Concourse. It was very convenient.
The platforms/tracks were a level below that.
The first time I went into the new WTC PATH station I was amazed by the distance I had to walk and the levels I had to go down to get to the PATH trains. It was not convenient and sent a message about the PA's (and the era's) attitude toward transit.
Sure, some of you have seen classic, pre-war rolling stock come and go, remember when the IRT was the IRT and when the BMT was the BMT--or BRT. But I ask you--passengers only now, not T/O's--ever had the unique experience of changing cars on an R46?
I did it yesterday!
My (F) train was stuck behind an (E) at 71-Continental with a sick passenger. So they creeped my (F) train up just enough that the foremost door on the front car just barely platformed at Continental. So they announced that if we wanted to we could get out of the train by going to the front car.
I myself was within the front four cars, so I just had to change between B-ends. I wonder if they let people towards the back of the train walk through the cars.
:-) Andrew
I myself was within the front four cars, so I just had to change between B-ends. I wonder if they let people towards the back of the train walk through the cars.
...by which I mean did they let people walk through the cabs.
:-) Andrew
Before GOH R-46 and 44 end doors were found unlocked alot. If they weren't you could use a toggle switch to unlock the end door. This toggle switch was covered up during GOH.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, the interior toggle switch was actually covered up years
before the GOH program. I've never seen the original access door.
There was always a single-gang blank plate covering the switch,
which was high on the right hand end panel. Sometimes those plates
were missing and the switch was visible (and functional). During
GOH the switch was removed entirely and the area re-panelled to cover
the opening.
The exterior toggle switch is still there.
THANKS for the clarification, Jeff.
Peace,
ANDEE
If you remove the cover will the wires still be there?
Before GOH R-46 and 44 end doors were found unlocked alot.
Now you have to be one of the immigrant "onedollah! onedollah!" peddlers to have a key - I've seen several of them use real keys to open the doors. Supposedly there's a place in Flushing that makes them up.
If the 75-footers ever go through a GOH/rebuild process, I hope the TA will add emergency call boxes to each car (like PATH has had for years, and which appeared on new TA equipment). Ideally these will signal the crew if there's a crew aboard, but would also sound the horn or something else obvious if there is no crew on board - when the E was terminating at Whitehall, people would occasionally get locked in the cars when the train laid up there.
the c/r is supposed to check the cars for passengers. If that happwened he did not due his job. Also the t/o should have cjecked.
>> the c/r is supposed to check the cars for passengers. If that happwened he did not due his job. Also the t/o should have cjecked. <<
Every subway car should have a sign on the rear window that reads "This car has been checked for sleeping passengers." If it's good enough for school buses...
Actually this has happened before by "invaders", people (2) who looked like they were homeless.
It was on the A Rockaway bound and on the straight track stretch between Howard Beach and JFK (are those the two points?), when one tried to pass through our car in front of us. He noticed that the storm door was locked, so he gave short bursts of power to the handle to nudge it open. It opened about halfway and the two people seeped through. Luckily, the storm door on the next car opened as well.
I know this happened on an R44 but an R46 is similar enough to compare this to.
I think the doors are only locked from the inside heading out. If you are on the outside trying to get in, the door should open.
If you are outside heading in there is a switch beside the doorframe that will unlock the door.
Dan
And when you get in the door will be unlocked from the inside because there is no one to lock it.
I'm quite skilled at using an ordinary key, pen, or any long slender object to unlock the 75' car doors. I used to do it all the time, but now I only do it when conditions in the car warrant it for comfort's sake (ie: no air conditioning, crazed man). Always on a long straightaway because such situations tend to inspire people to tag along when any method of egress becomes available.
I've always thought the R-44 and 46 doors should automatically unlock when the train in stopped. I know there are problems with this idea, but people tend to get a bit of cabin fever when trains are stopped between stations and just knowing that you can exit the car tends to ease the feeling of captivity.
You leave them in there for 10 minutes and the catwalk will be covered in glass from people escaping.LOL
DOOR CHECK: Lock the door, lift from the handle and pull in the opening direction (left.) If there is play and the door hanger is too high, the latch will release. Write up the car for inspection.
CI Peter
Damn!
Redbirds are a good learning tool! CI Peter
I always do my own door check when I get to the railfan window. If I'm using the handle as my support, I probably don't want the door to open without warning.
I once found it unlocked on an R-40 N, but I was too chicken to open it far enough to take an unobstructed picture pulling into Queensboro Plaza. I did inform the T/O as I departed.
Once, on an R-32 E, I think from 71st to Roosevelt, the guy who was at the railfan window discovered the door was unlocked. He pulls it a bit open, and after enjoying unobstructed tunnel air for a few moments knocks on the cab door and says 'your storm door's unlocked'. Hard brake, train stops, (female) T/O jumps out, locks, does the 'Door Check', says thanks to the guy and jumps right back in and continues.
I find that every once in a while on the diamond Q. I wait until the train is stopped (usually at a station...) and inform the Train Operator, who then thanks me and corrects the situation.
David
The storm doors on some R-40's have the tendency to stick closed, so I can imagine how a T/O could occasionally think the door is locked when it isn't. Still, I've only noticed it once, and I always check when I'm at the railfan window.
The handle reacts differently when pulled depending on whether the door's locked or unlocked -- when locked, the handle doesn't move.
David
I had one pop open on me on the #4 years ago in one of the R21's....the ones on which the motorman's door opened to the front. Scared the crap out of me...AND the motorman, and he immediately reached out and locked it without losing a single mile an hour.
And he even apologized to me for it opening...!!!
I think half the passengers in the front car had to change their underwear when the wind went through the car -- it was just north of 86th Street when they used to rip through there.
If they installed a better chain to block it off You could keep open 24/7. It saves money on AC and allows more money to be used for SAS.
Like on the really old cars with open air vestiules. If you want a nice trip, go on a vestibuled train, go out throught the railfan Door and get a nice breeze like on a motercycle. If only I were alive back then!
Storm doors on the MFL in Philly have been known to be unlocked once in a while. And since they swing IN (as opposed to sliding) when you pull on the handle, specifically make sure you check that it's locked before you grab on while the train is accelerating. But it will also open just as easily at cruising speed if you pull on the handle. Jersey Mike found this out the hard way on at least one occasion in the recent past.
Actually this has happened before by "invaders", two people who looked like they were homeless.
It was on the A Rockaway bound and on the straight track stretch between Howard Beach and JFK (are those the two points?), when one tried to pass through our car in front of us. He noticed that the storm door was locked, so he gave short bursts of power to the handle to nudge it open. It opened about halfway and the two people seeped through. Luckily, the storm door on the next car opened as well.
I know this happened on an R44 but an R46 is similar enough to compare this to.
>>>... and the two people seeped through.<<<
People don't SEEP. Water seeps. Oil seeps. NOT people.
Peace,
ANDEE
You don't understand anything about figurative language do you? Looks like you're not really a railfan and you just like to make a bunch of side comments wherever you can.
>>>Looks like you're not really a railfan....<<<
Hahaha...that's rich. Let's see, membership, corporate donations and volunteer work in THREE area rail museums....and that's just for starters....can YOU say the same?
Need a crowbar to extract that foot from your mouth?
Peace,
ANDEE
No flaming now! We want subtalk NOT to close.
ALEXANDRIA, Va., 9:09 a.m. EDT June 21, 2002 - Rail commuters have an anniversary to celebrate today; the Virginia Railway Express is 10 years old.
There's going to be a VRE birthday celebration at the Alexandria train station on Callahan Drive beginning at 12noon. Gov. Mark Warner will be on hand to cut a ceremonial birthday cake with members of the VRE operations board.
The railway also has some fun planned for its passengers. There are some special contests being offered and the prizes will include concert tickets and vacations.
VRE officials are also sponsoring a "Where's The VRE 10th Anniversary Logo" contest on their website where passengers who find the special logo can win prizes.
I wanted to ride VRE while in the DC area last month, but VRE trains only run inbound in the morning, and outtbound in the evenings. It was evening, and I needed to go inbound, and missed my chance.
Mark
Anybody have an explanation for this service advisory?
That does not compute....that does not compute...that does not compute....that does not compute.....that does not compute
Cute. lol!
My guess is emergency work on the trackbed and slow entry due to flaggers and workers...
But why in the morning rush only?
In any case, if you thought the 6 was crowded now, wait until everyone from the 4/5 pours onto the 6 to avoid the delays.
This is just great! :-(. Now that I have to intern in Brooklyn three days a week, and the duece is stuck as a local, I am completly at the mercy of the Lex, which is slow already at the aforementioned times of the AM rush.
So. Allow yourself 15 extra minutes.
This is why the advisory.
Sheesh! What's the big deal.
: ) Elias
You know, there's no law that forbids the use of a local, even for long trips.
In the case of the 2, give yourself an extra eight minutes and you'll be fine. If you're lucky, you'll catch a 3 at 96th and jump a train or two ahead; if not, the local takes eight minutes more than the express.
Or take the 4/5 and give yourself a few extra minutes there. It's not like they didn't warn you.
The old concrete supporting the rails is going to be chipped out. As part of this, during midnights, #4 trains will be running local from Grand Central to 14th Street while the workers are doing their thing on the southbound express track.
Geez, so they need to post a GO about how wood will be supporting the rails, limiting the trains to either 10 or 15mph?! Cmon now, there's a slow leave from 72nd street uptown local on the 1 and 2, aint no GO about that!!
So, in other words:
1. NYCT doesn't let people know that trains will be slowing down. People complain that the trains are running slowly and that nobody warned them.
or
2. NYCT DOES let people know that trains will be slowing down. People complain that the trains are running slowly and that somebody DID warn them.
Have I got it right?
David
HAting to point it out, but... Skeletonized track should result in a delay at all times until the concrete gets poured. Why specifically note that this delay will occur during themorning rush hour?
True 'nuff. I don't know why an exception was made this time, except that the southbound Lexington Avenue Line is so busy during the AM rush. I haven't asked the schedule-makers, but a slowdown of this magnitude might necessitate removing some trainsets from the line to avoid interminable congestion (as was done on the E and F last year when work was being done in the 53rd Street Tunnel), thus increasing crowding (though school's just about over, which might help a bit), so it's probably a good idea to warn people that they should allow extra time.
David
This has occurred several times already but it seems that if I press the Stop button after I press either the "Post Message" in the preview or on "Post Message - Click Once", the message is already posted without me knowing it. Then I make any changes if necessary and go through the posting process, with no message of a duplicate submission.
Is there a way to solve this or is the posting information already sent immediately after I press the button even if I don't see it on the screen yet (the "Your Message has been Posted" page)?
Once you press the submit button, your post is sent to the web server for processing.
Hitting the stop button on your browser just prevents the confirmation page from the site from displaying in your browser, NOT from processing on the server side.
Then when you hit submit again, you are sending the post a second time.
Instead of hitting "Post Message", hit "Preview Message Before Posting", then decide how to continue with the message.
Correct. Once you hit submit, your compute sends it's packet to Dave's computer. The deed is DONE!
What you are waiting for is for Dave's computer to receive the packet you just sent, add it to his database, generate a new page, and for his computer to reply with new packets containing the next screen.
You cannot abort a launch command once the rocket has left the ground.
Elias
Okay I know on our R17 at BERA there is a thermostat for the HVAC (okay no A/C) next to the cab door (forgot which end). It has a nice glob of gum on top of it the TA just painted right over (I digress) it.
I think on the R68/68A's they are on the #2 end cab outside. I couldn't find one on the R40 and they have the best A/C if you ask me.
Big Lou:
The thermostat over the cab door is the layup heat thermostat which
cycles the floor heat when the temperature drops below 45F, even
if the trainline Heat/Fan control is off.
There is another thermostat which is located in the plenum where
it is exposed to the return air stream. On the R-17 and other
pre-AC SMEE cars, it controls the damper which regulates the amount
of fresh air intake, and also controls the overhead heating coils
on cars so equipped (R-21 and up). On "modern" SMEE cars, the
thermostat controls the OH heat, AC compressor, and blower speed.
I have no idea on the "new tech" trains. The thermostat has probably
been replaced with an embedded PC running Windoze.
The thermostat 'penus' is visible through the plenum grating on the Redbirds and can be stimulated by 'rubbing.' Just got my refrigerant certification and may have a summer full of 'BoidWork.' My interest is 'aroused' and will look into R142 sensors. CI Peter
Windows NT 4 Emmbeded or XP emmbeded. Though they just might of used Windows CE. Remember that turnstiles run off of OS/2!
Chicago's streetcars entered history on this date in 1958 when Green Hornet 7213 on the remaining southern half of the #22 Clark-Wentworth route made the last run.
IIRC one of our esteemed posters was there, too.
> Chicago's streetcars entered history on this date in 1958
> when Green Hornet 7213 on the remaining southern half of
> the #22 Clark-Wentworth route made the last run.
And on the following day the Congress rapid transit line opened, replacing the temporary Garfield Park surface trackage along Van Buren Street. This was CTA's first median-strip operation.
Alan Follett
I'm not sure to whom the adjective "esteemed" applies, but I was on that final run on Wentworth Avenue that closed out a century of street rail transportation in Chicago. Chicago had the greatest, and possibly the largest, streetcar system on this planet. It is missed, and to quote another railfan, "it was a better world."
IIRC that was the longest strtcar run in Chicago, prhaps the world, at 22 miles {ACentury of Chicago Traction video, Interurban Films]. Think I remember that comment.Ina lot of ways I think it was a better world then too, not perfect but life was gentler.
How about this one. A quiz. What happened 61 years ago today (Saturday)? Any takers?
The start of Operation Barbarossa.
Attaboy Pig, I knew, I really did, you would come up with it. I wonder how many know the real significance of that blunder by Herr Schicklegrubber?
Don't tick off the commies. Osama will learn next.
Forgetting that Mussolini made the TRAINS RUN ON TIME!
>>How about this one. A quiz. What happened 61 years ago today (Saturday)? Any takers?<<
They closed the Sea Beach Line to shine the third rails ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Ha! Typical muttering of a Brighton man. Check Pig's answer and start reading up on your history. BTW, are you with us this coming October when the numbers gang hits town?
>>BTW, are you with us this coming October when the numbers gang hits town?<<
Yes, Fred.
Bill "Newkirk"
One of the recent CTA calendars features a photo of the motorman on that final run, Marvin McFall, shaking hands with the conductor, William E. Rye as they stood in front of the car at the end of the run.
I wonder how many people got on or off along the line during that last run... IIRC it took place during the wee morning hours.
The great majority of passengers on that final streetcar run were railfans, most of whom boarded at the north terminal at Clark and Kinzie Streets, rode to the end of the line at 81st and Halsted Streets, then back to the car station at 77th and Vincennes. That last part ordinarily would be out of service, but we were indulged by the crew. Of course, the car served the usual number of regular passengers, no doubt baffled by the crowds. Since it was the last owl run, it left Clark and Kinzie sometime after 4:00 am and pulled into 77th Street close to 6:00, well after sunrise. I didn't think to count the "regular" passengers, but CTA's owl service was always well patronized, particularly after 2:00 and 4:00 bar closings.
It was so sad, having to ride a bus back to 59th Street to catch the Englewood "L" home. I don't think many fans showed up for the Congress line opening later that morning, nor the end of Garfield Park "L" service Friday night, either.
CTA's 1983 calendar has a photo of 7213 turning onto Clark as it began its final southbound run. You can plainly see the "Last streetcar to run in Chicago" sign affixed to its front and the "Farewell Windy City Trolleys - Final run 6-21-58" sign on its side. There was early morning twilight, and people in the street can be seen waving goodbye as the car moved past.
Was there any fanfare on the last Broadway run?
A sad day, and an event that assured that Chicago was going in the wrong direction. Many of us will live to see the undoing of that error. Thank you for marking it for us.
I regret being too young to remember it. I was all of a year and a half of age then.
Will the LIRR be running a regular weekday schedule on July 5? I don't see any notice on their web page (unless I'm looking in the wrong place.)
I expect a lot of people will take that day off because Thursday, July 4 is federal holiday and this is an opportunity for a long weekend.
If the LIRR is running a regular weekday schedule, I expect the trains to look like weekend trains.
I'm coming to the city for the weekend. When I'm NOT dancing argentine tango, I intend to go out to Montauk Point July 5 and need to know if the trains are following the weekday or weekend schedule,
Thanks,
Michael
Washington, DC
Weekday schedules are in effect on Friday 7/5. Since you're going to Montauk, though, it is worth noting that some of the extra trains that normally run on Fridays are not running 7/5 and are instead running on Wednesday 7/3 instead.
The info doesn't appear on the web page anywhere, but can be deduced from the schedule note which specifically lists the weekday holidays when weekend schedules are in effect. That and past practice tell me that they'll be running weekday schedules this year.
CG
It's all plainly spelled out on the MTA/LIRR Web site. For example, look here for the Montalk eastbound weekday schedule. See where it says "NOTE 1" at the top? Look below and you'll see that that train does not run on Friday, July 5. In summary, the LIRR will be on a weekday schedule that day, with some exceptions.
I'll be in NYC July 4 & 5 for Transit and Weather Together(tm) from the Portable Weather Center®.
>>>...from the Portable Weather Center®. <<<
What's that?
I'm stuck working in midtown, at The Worlds Largest Store, on 7/4. Would love to meet you. E-mail me if you so desire.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>...from the Portable Weather Center®. <<<
What's that?
I'm stuck working in midtown, at The Worlds Largest Store, on Friday 7/5. Would love to meet you. E-mail me if you so desire.
Peace,
ANDEE
6391-95 and 6406-10 are on the road today. I must be imagining this, but I think 6395 has a complete face.... Did they install the remainder of the black panels?
I may have lost track of what's on the road right now. If this is old news, sorry!
-Stef
no its not.i think they installed the face
R142/R143MAN
AMTRAK
Major damage repair on #5s is either done by the vendors or East 180th Street. I do special inspections as the trainsets come in...next due is July 8th/9th. Noticed a #5 with the red fibreglas scratched up from loose 'pantograph springs.' CI peter
They should be repaired at East 238 Street
Vendors drive us crazy at 239th and 'warranty repairs' may come in on 'trouble tracks' which we don't deal with. Problem is that 239th was never built for inspection and trying to work on the inner tracks is like working in the midst of Times Square. If a R142 comes in for #5 or #2 service beyond inspection or what vendors on site may do, it goes to East 180th. I work the #5 and IF special parts come in for my special inspection duties, I'll do the work. Chances are that the parts are not available and the trainset may be placed back into RTO duty. CI Peter
They put the black face on 6395 at the jerome mod shop that bomb had set up there. there should be about ten new train sets on the five line that all came from the storage cars.
Thanks, partner.
I'd guess there should be few or no cars left in storage. Finally! The R-142s have come to play.
-Stef
finally.their here
Amtrak
This evening I only caught the first number of this R-142 in testing I think it was 6486,over at Dyre Avenue
their bringing them in
Add 6491-6500 to the testing list.
-Stef
Right!
Dude, I got off an R-142A Train that had Cars 7641-45 and 7656-60 tonight. Looks like the 6 could have more than 440 cars in service?
The only train I haven't seen was that of Cars 7626-30 and 7651-55.
7661-70, are here and in testing.
-Stef
I was on one last Friday (6/14) on the 5 between 14th and 86th Sts. that had to have come right out of the shop, since it had no ads or artwork in either of the cars I was in, just backing panels with GE logos (including over the spots where the extrior route signs are -- unless of course GE is trying to sell non-stick panneling to subway passengers).
Since GE is not a vendor, it was probably panels that didn't have protective coatings removed as the trainset was hurriedly placed into service. CI Peter
On the Queens bound local platform at Queens Plaza all punch boxes are marked that D2-1247 X460 switch is Bad Ordered do not punch for local to express lineup.
So Millions to upgrade this interlocking and the whole area and the switch is tits up already. How long has it been B/O'd??
Think the TA could do something a little more safe then taping signs on the punch boxes.
I have to peak into the tower and see how the new fangled PC's are setup to stop someone from giving this lineup.
They have actually been working on that switch at night.
I'm "sure" that precautions were taken at the vital relay level
to prevent that switch from throwing! Is Barraza peeking in from
Nantuckett? How do you do a DNO with an all-relay interlocking?
From Sunday to Thursday I had to be in Montreal on business. I went by Via Rail. Some notes.....
Only two round trips per day between Niagara Falls, ON and Toronto. One train is the Amtrak Maple Leaf to/from New York. The three spur stations (Niagara Falls, St. Catherine's, Grimsby) have one side platform. The train pulls in to the station on the adjacent track. The line in this section is double tracked, with the "through" track presumably for freight. However, it seems all trains are flip-flopping between the tracks.
Niagara Falls and St. Catherine's have stations that appear to date from the 1920's, but with modernizations inside. Grimsby's old station is now an antique shop; it's new station is about twice as big as a ticket booth at an old amusement park.
The train proceeds "slowly" (30 mph?) between Niagara Falls and St. Catherine's. It is flying (65 mph?) between St. Catherine's, past Grimsby, to about the Hamilton city limits. CN (the freight line that probably owns the ROW) has signs posted regularly telling the operators where they are in a general sense. The train operates slowly in Hamilton (30 mph) and then slows down more as we approach Hamilton Jct. This area is one of the more spectacular sights for railfans. As the train curves around the western end of Lake Ontario, we see a beautiful recreational area on our right; as we cross a river which empties into the lake, GO (Toronto's commuter rail system)tracks from Hamilton merge from our rear left. The merge begins while over the water. Above and to the left is a road connecting higher ground. After this merge, there is another merge from our rear left with the tracks coming from Windsor. Finally, we pull into Aldershot station, which is shared with GO's western lake shore line. From Aldershot to Toronto, there are sometimes 2, 3 or 4 tracks which are shared with the GO line. A shared stop exists at Oakville. Finally, we arrive in Toronto's Union Station, which has very long, track level island platforms between each pair of tracks. The station is elevated, outdoors, but covered by a series of sub-roofs, each about the width of two tracks and two platforms. There are about 12 tracks for passenger traffic (about 6 each for VIA/Amtrak and GO) and several through tracks for freight. There are no trains dead-heading in the station.
The Toronto to Montreal run is packed with people. We exit Union Station and run along GO's eastern lake shore route, stopping at Guildwood. After this, we're really out in the sticks. There are several stations along the route, some of which are skipped by our train. One notable station that is skipped is Port Hope, which is right on the lake shore. The biggest flock of seagulls I've ever seen takes off from the beach as the train approaches.
Refreshments are served airline style....the conductors come around with a cart on wheels. This is done twice during the trip.
The ride is rather dull until we reach the Montreal metropolitan area. We now are riding alongside (but not sharing) tracks with one of Montreal's commuter rail lines on our left, and Route 20 on our right. A stop is made at Dorval Airport. The VIA station is slightly staggered east of the commuter rail station. About 60% of the passengers actually get off here.
Shortly after Dorval, perhaps after one more station on the commuter line, VIA veers slightly southward. This particular commuter line terminates in Gare Windsor, while we will be proceeding to Gare Centrale. (Two commuter lines terminate at Gare Centrale.) We wind over the Lachine Canal and through an industrial/residential area on what is probably an overcrowded single track. The track then branches many times as we enter the yard area south of the St. Lawrence. Instead of making the sharp left turn into the terminal, we veer slightly southeast onto Victoria Bridge, which is shared with automobile traffic. We stop halfway, and then back in (through a wye) across the river into Gare Centrale.
The platform area of Gare Centrale reminds me of one of the levels of Penn Station. There is one high, island platform for every two tracks. The lighting is rather poor. There are about 14 tracks total. The western 4 and eastern 2 are used for commuter rail. The other 8 are used for VIA and Amtrak.
The station is classic art deco...the west and east walls have interesting murals done in 1930's design. The west wall has English words on it, while the east wall is in French.
While in Montreal, I used the Metro. Unfortunately, my travels were limited to the Orange line between Bonaventure and Sherbrooke. The description of the trains on this site is still accurate. No railfan windows. The fares have risen somewhat to $2.25CAN for a single ride, $14CAN for a three-day pass, $9CAN for 6 rides. There are other deals as well. All the stations I went through (Bonaventure, Victoria Square, Place D'Armes, Champs de Mars, Berri-Uqam, Sherbrooke) are all two tracks, two side platforms. The mezzanine areas are slightly different between them. All these stations have extensive tunnel passages to key buildings, malls, etc. in their general vicinity, some as much as 3 blocks away. This was very helpful for tourists, in my opinion, but probably was done to mitigate the nasty winter weather.
Berri-Uqam is a major transfer point with the Green and Yellow lines. The lines are separate, and one cannot see the tracks of one from the any of the others. The Yellow line, which terminates here, is actually running parallel to the Orange line about one block west. This means that somewhere between Champs de Mars and Berri-Uqam, the Orange line crosses the Yellow line.
I observed (by looking out the side windows) that as one proceeds from Champs de Mars to Berri-Uqam, in the midst of the wide left turn, that another track appears off to the right. There is a set of scissor switches with this track. This track then continues, and disappears from view. No such phenomenon exists with the track on the Orange line going the other way. Could this be an interaction with the Yellow line?
I rode the trains at 6:30 am; 9:30 am; 9 pm; 11 pm during weekdays, and 5 pm and 9 pm on Sunday. The trains are crowded, primarily with young people, all the time. How do adults get to work?
On Sunday, commuter rail traffic was light, and rail traffic almost non-existent. The latter surprised me, since the Albany/Buffalo run on Conrail/Amtrak/CSX is packed with freight trains on Sunday.
I returned home on Thursday. While waiting for my train in Gare Centrale, I went into the McDonald's. They had photographs mounted on the wall of CN's passenger rail history. Of particular note was a photo which I believed to be mislabeled. I'm tempted to write them a letter to correct it.
Anyway, the trip from Montreal to Toronto was relatively uneventful. I did see more freight trains than I did on Sunday. The train to Niagara Falls (which, I have concluded, is the "Franklin Shuttle" of VIA) was a little late leaving, since it used equipment from the train arriving from Ottawa. While waiting, I observed the evening rush for the GO trains. Again, crowded with primarily younger people.
We pass a GO train while we're on an "express" track in the 4 track section; several GO trains whiz by in the opposite direction, as well as one or two freight trains prior to Hamilton Jct. We wait for a GO train out of Hamilton to clear the junction before proceeding through.
Between Grimsby and St. Catherine's, the Maple Leaf from New York, about two hours late, whizzes by.
We now get a special "treat"; a ship is passing through the Welland Canal east of (after) the St. Catherine's station. Our tracks are on a draw bridge, and the bridge is raised. Without sticking my head out the window (which can't be done anyway) I cannot see it, though I judge it to be only about 200 yards ahead. We are delayed about 20 minutes. Everyone on the train wants to see the ship that caused the bridge to open. Finally the bridge comes down and we proceed. No one ever sees the ship. A freight train from the opposite direction blocks our view while on the bridge.
We finally arrive in NFO, an hour late. But I've had fun.
The track you saw just before entering Berri-UQAM Northbound connects with the Green line Eastbound
Thanks for the info. That explains where it is going to. Where was it coming from?
>>>The station is classic art deco...the west and east walls have interesting murals done in 1930's design. The west wall has English words on it, while the east wall is in French. <<<
MOST interesting....thanks for the EXCELLENT report.
Peace,
ANDEE
The SIRT uses the R44-46 class of cars and the end doors are unlocked. I just switched cars on an R44 SIRT train the other day. It feels weird.
Isn't it illegal? I wanted to do it when I rode SIRT in December, but I didn't want to risk a ticket.
It is illegal on SIRT to pass between cars. SIR Police enforce this rule when observe violations.
Does that apply even when the train is stopped at a station with the doors open?
SIR uses only R44s, specifically a subset of them called the R44SI's.
:-) Andrew
also called the R43
Quite incorrectly.
>>SIR uses only R44s, specifically a subset of them called the R44SI's<<
A.K.A. MUE 2's (Multiple unit electric) The MUE 1's were the 1925 Standard Steel cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
Cool! I need to try that next time I go. Its probably FRA mandated.
There used to be switches on both the inside and outside of the cars to allow you to unlock the door. But within the past two years they covered over the inside ones. Probably because there was no way to prevent people from entering a car if they decided to close it.
But now if a conductor doesn't know the rules and leaves 'em all locked you're screwed if your destination is a short platform stop.
SIR isn't under FRA, well they operate under waiver.
Which line in IND is the most busiest line? I believe it's the A or the F Line. I do believe in the BMT it would be the Q and the IRT the 4 or 7 Line.
The IRT- It's defintly the 4, even at midnight that line its still hard to find a seat
The BMT- N or R, because it goes to lower manhattan is local, I would go with the N line.
the IND, it has to the E or F lines, they are the 4,5,6 lines of the B division.
If it is the N or R, why does the frequency of those line not compare to some other lines? Whenever I use either of those lines, the wait seems longer than most lines. I do agree with the 4 though, or maybe the 6, but definitely one of the two.
If it is the N or R, why does the frequency of those line not compare to some other lines? Whenever I use either of those lines, the wait seems longer than most lines.
Because the letters N and R are abbreviations for Never and Rarely.
Come on now, I'm not going to stand for some Limey putting the knock on my train. Go and blast the R all you want but leave the Sea Beach along. Hey, we did a pretty good job against the Jerries didn't we; almost upset them. Too bad about your team. They lost a tough one, too.
Come on now, I'm not going to stand for some Limey putting the knock on my train.
I was only obliquely calling for more service on it...
and blast the R all you want but leave the Sea Beach along.
The RR Train - the closest thing to an IND Line on the BMT. There - are you happy now? Oh yes, it stands for RRRRRRRRRRRRRat-infested too. Rumor has it the RR was nearly made the RRR because riders were complaining that it was too slow to be called a local.
Hey, we did a pretty good job against the Jerries didn't we; almost upset them. Too bad about your team. They lost a tough one, too.
As I've said before, my team is Wales, not England. As Wales did not qualify this time, I was backing the USA. The USA played some of the best soccer I've seen, but lost to the traditional German combination of theatrical dives and a useless referee. Hopefully having such a good national team will enhance the popularity of soccer in the USA.
(Hopefully having such a good national team will enhance the popularity of soccer in the USA.)
Among insomnaics.
Really, what soccer needs to do is change the rules to reverse the growing dominance of defense, which is favored by the existing rules. Americans did so in baseball (lower the mound, shrink the strike zone, juice the ball) basketball (24 second clock, 3 point shot, no zone defense) and football (hand chuck only with 5 yards, offensive linemen can extend hands) when defense became too dominant. When a 2-1 score shows a match between two great defenses, rather than an offensive explosion, then soccer may gain popularity among those who did not grow up with it.
Anyway, if you think of lines rather than routes, the Queens Boulevard line is the busiest IND line, the Lexington Avenue Line is the busiest IRT line, and the Brighton line is the busiest BMT line.
Among insomnaics.
It's bad enough in the UK - certain games kicked off at 7am. I much preferred 1994 when the games were at civilised times both sides of the Atlantic.
Really, what soccer needs to do is change the rules to reverse the growing dominance of defense
I quite agree, but I thought this year the USA showed everyone else how to defend - with some guts and none of those dirty tricks which have so infested the game in Europe.
When a 2-1 score shows a match between two great defenses, rather than an offensive explosion, then soccer may gain popularity among those who did not grow up with it.
Exactly. The rule I would change would be the offside rule - make it only apply within 18 yards of the goal line. I have been to matches which have ended in scores like 6-0 and 4-4, but that is non-League stuff. It is much more exciting that way.
Oooooppppps, sorry about that one British James. I should have known better. My late Uncle George was born in Wales, married by dad's sister. He once told me the same thing. HE WAS WELSH, not English. OK, I blew it. Good to know you root for us. We owe you one on that. As far as the R is concerned, BINGO. Was the ref really that crappy? It was on too too too early for me to watch.
Oooooppppps, sorry about that one British James. I should have known better. My late Uncle George was born in Wales, married by dad's sister. He once told me the same thing. HE WAS WELSH, not English.
Don't worry about it! At least you know that England and Britain aren't quite synonymous! Your uncle probably preferred Rugby Union to Soccer too!
Good to know you root for us. We owe you one on that.
As my home team wasn't there, I just chose the team whose play I liked most and who I felt deserved to win. (Plus I actually do like America just a bit, to say the least!)
Was the ref really that crappy?
He started off really lax, so the Germans realised they could get away with bad tackles, theatrical dives and other dishonest play. Then he fell for the Germans' dives and awarded a succession of dubious free kicks against the USA, the most obviously wrong of which they scored from. If that's not crap refereeing, I don't know what is. I still think the best referee was the one who sent David Ginola off for diving!
Thanks James. I hope they put the game on TV out here in California so I can watch it for myself. Soccer is not that big in America because we have baseball (my sport), basketball and football. But we are very proud of what our boys have done in World Cup competition and in 2006 we will be really following them.
Thanks James. I hope they put the game on TV out here in California so I can watch it for myself. Soccer is not that big in America because we have baseball (my sport), basketball and football. But we are very proud of what our boys have done in World Cup competition and in 2006 we will be really following them.
I hope the next World Cup has games at civilized times, so in your sunny California you can see the games live. Baseball, basketball and American Football all have a tiny following in the UK. The UK has a few good basketball teams, baseball (or at least softball) is increasingly popular in private schools, but American Football really flopped. When Channel 4 tried televising it, very few people watched because (1) they didn't understand it and (2) the number of stoppages annoyed the British audience - oh well...
I'm sure that everyone in the USA who likes sport at all will be very proud of how the national team did this time. Hopefully they will make it further in 2006 - I personally would love an USA victory, but even a tough semi-final (e.g. vs. Brazil or Italy) would be a great achievement.
One question Fred - what's a Sea Beach man like you doing living the other side of the Continent?!?
E, Q, 7 are the answers if you look at schedules and occupancy figures, and if you count Q and < Q > together, and 7 local and express together.
The 4/5 together is busier than the 7, though.
The E and F have the same frequency from Queens, but the E is more crowded.
The A Train has to be in there also, because during AM rush hour, it is pack like hell.
Rush hour is one thing. Is it just as busy the rest of the time?
Speaking of my favorite route, I was at a wedding last Friday and guess what they played at the reception first? Why, a recording of Take the A Train.
In my daily commute experience, I say
A & E is busiest IND line
4 5 6 7 is the busiest IRT line
Q is the busiest BMT line
I think the 7 has the highest ridership, but I'm not sure. I do know that the 6 line has the highest ridership on the Lexington line. In fact, they claim to have more riders than the 4 and 5 lines combined.
How do you define "busiest"?
Greatest number of passengers carried per year? Greated number of passenger-miles per year? Greatest number of passengers or passenger-miles during rush hour? Greatest number of trains per (whatever)? Greatest square footage in trains per (whatever)? Greatest crowding (i.e., greatest number of passengers per square foot) per (whatever)? Some other metric I haven't thought of?
Are you treating each letter or number as its own entity, or are you looking at groups of services that share trackage? Or maybe groups of services that share lines, whether on the express or on the local?
I can't even guess at an answer until you tell us what you want to know.
The 42nd St corridor (the TS and GC stations) must certainly be the most intensely trafficked set of stations, by which I mean the station-complex with the largest number of people going thru it, vs. paid entry fares. The only possible competition is Fulton/B'way-Nassau, but no one willingly transfers there (narrow passages, narrow staircases, long walks, lots of dirt, grime and grunge (and sometimes rats), and fetid air). The idea that one might willingly transfer to an 8th Av train there, with all the bells and whistles, does appeal to this Bay-Ridge boy, but it's still less than a direct 8 Av connection (you tell me how one gets to W4 from 86th/4th quickly, late night, without turning the West End into a 15 tph all-the-time express).
I have done E trains in Bay Ridge, but they were disdirected at Queens Plaza, and always towards Ft Ham, and never to Queens.
Fulton is heavily used as a transfer point between the two IRT lines for those not leaving Manhattan, although if I'm using an unlimited I find it easier to go up to the street and walk the two blocks above ground. It's also the only connection between the J/M/Z and the 1/2. (OTOH, nobody would transfer there between the IND and the 1/2.)
From W4 to 86th late night, go outside, walk a few blocks to Broadway, and take the N to 59th for the R.
Times Square is the busiest station in terms of fares paid and it's undoubtedly the busiest transfer point, with five distinct lines making for 4! = 24 useful transfers (not counting cross-platform express-local transfers and assuming that no one transfers between the shuttle and the 7). Grand Central has only three lines and 2! = 2 useful transfers.
I'd guess Fulton has more transfer traffic than Grand Central.
We're agreed. Fulton/B'way-Fulton probably has more traffic than the 42nd St. corridor. We're also probably agreed that Fulton/B'way-Nassaau is the most obnoxious, least artsy-railfan-friendly complex in the system.
My challange was not W4 to 86th Bay Ridge late nite, but the opposite. R trains then are ten or better minutes apart. And they don't meet B or N trains like they should at 36th or even Pacific. Back when there were four tracks running across the M-Bridge, it was all local stops to Pacific and then take the D train at DeKalb to W4, sometimes after the hike at Atlantic/Pacific.
You said:
From W4 to 86th late night, go outside, walk a few blocks to Broadway, and take the N to 59th for the R.
Car service is faster, which is what I did.
You spent $20 Saturday night to save two hours. It was worth it, back in those days when you had cheap rent in a superb building in Brooklyn.
Late-night service runs at 20-minute intervals on all lines.
The late night R hasn't ventured north of 36th Street for a long time. Neither has the late night W or B. (That will be changing in September, when the N is cut back to Pacific at night.) There simply isn't the demand for full-length service on all four south Brooklyn BMT lines -- it would be wasteful for the TA to send a train carrying 6 people across the river. I don't think the TA minds if you take a car service; late night service around there is a money-loser no matter what you do.
As for Fulton, the problem is the tightly stacked Nassau platforms; the only way to get past them is via the IND platform (or on the street). But I'd guess that Fulton has more traffic than Grand Central but much less than Times Square.
IND- A during am rush, especially fulton st up to jay st
E past 42nd st times sq, not so packed in 8av
F church av- roosevelt av (sometimes i have to wait an extra
train at church to get on)
BMT- ( Q )< Q > not as crowded as IND and IRT but out of the other
BMT lines, i would say its the most crowded
IRT- ( 6 )< 6 > definitely has more passengers than 4/5. trains are
packed even though trains run as frequent as 2min together.
( 7 )< 7 > same reason as 6, but after junction blvd to main st,
its not as crowded, more than half the passengers get off
Story in today's Tribune:
CTA Red Line reopens after train breakdown
-- David
Chicago, IL
CSX has parked a train of almost two dozen RailBox boxcars (RBOX reporting marks) on a storage track here. Every one of the cars is covered with graffiti, with some of it looking quite old, and appearing as if it is starting to weather off.
The scene is reminiscent of the New York subways of 25 years ago, except these are boxcars, and not subway cars. The graffiti is low on the cars, as if the perpetrators worked from ground level instead of platform level.
Unfortunately, I've seen that on a lot of freight cars lately.
I rode them today, they were overall quite good. A full report tomorrow.
Back in March, I caught one on the Green Line from Mt Vernon Sq-UDC (they still had some old signage there, and I much prefer the shorter name in this case) to Greenbelt, then from Greenbelt to L'Enfant Plaza before catching the Blue Line to Franconia-Springfield, then back to DC.
As I'd feared... the LED signs inside the train depict route color, but nothing on destinations or stations. Also, the exterior signs still use the old cab sign for color, side sign for destination setup (something SEPTA's Broad Street Line could use), but they use a vibrant orange and brighter colors as opposed to the drab signs seen on the Rohr/Breda cars. They still use the color stripes in the signs.
As I feared, though, the would be railfan's chair is just like in the Breda cars... backwards! Come on, WMATA! Give us railfans and our necks a break! You're being shown up by SEPTA. (Actually, from what I've heard through asking, Metro's people consider SEPTA a much larger system, probably because they have their own railroad and trolleys. I think they respect them for that, at least that's how it seemed to me. Truth be told, SEPTA and WMATA probably serve about the same size area (DC is a small city)
The Broad Street Subway cars in Philly do have side destination signs - but they can be difficult to read sometimes. If it were up to me, at the next general overhaul SEPTA would be replacing its destination signs with new electronic signs similar to the R142's signage.
SEPTA's BSS also uses a marker light system. If you read station signs, you know that green marker lights mean an express train, white marker lights a local, and yellow marker lights (I hope I got the colors right!) a Broad-Ridge spur train, which also runs on the express track and is only two cars long.
All correct although I will add that blue is for Pattison specials and red is used on the rear of the train.
You've been on our system before. Cool!
BTW, as far as the destination signs on the BSS (or BSL, as some call it), I know how they work the destination signs. Front depicts origin and destination and is flanked by the marker lights, side depicts origin, destination, and service level (exception: Ridge Spur trains, which have a permanently orange "8th-Market" sign both in front and sides, but no "Ridge" service designation.) I meant that they should use the LED signs, have the front/rear depict service level, and the side depict destination. Heck, they could even flank the destination (not the LED board itself, just the destination within) with color stripes like WMATA does, just so someone who didn't see the front of the train will know wheter they've got an express or local or Ridge going north.
i.e. You have a WMATA car. Front/rear reads, in plain LED color, "Orange". "Orange" is flanked by orange LED stripes. How they do color changing on LED signs is something I don't know, I've only seen it in DC. Anyway, the side signs read "Vienna", and "Vienna" is flanked by orange LED color stripes
For the BSS cars, the maker lights would stay, and the order, from left to center, remains: red, white, green, yellow, blue. Center is LED sign. Lights from center to right are reverse of left to center (blue, yellow, green, white, red). The side signs would also be LED signs, not the large panel that they currently use
so, with a BSS car, it'd be like this: Front/rear reads, in plain LED color, "Express". LED on front (the panel alone, not the sign depicted on it) is flanked by green marker lights, rear LED is flanked by red. For this reason, matching green color stripes (on the sign, not the train) would flank "Express" at both ends, since red markers are the tail lights. Side signs would read "Fern Rock", and "Fern Rock" is flanked by green color stripes (again, inside the signs, not on the train exterior).
Hope that clears up what I meant. BTW, the main reason I thought of this is because I've seen so many people who ask which way the train's going because both the origin and destination are shown on the current sign they use. Also, I thought this might prompt them to find some way to avoid having to use the Girard/8th Street designation on Ridge trains. Southbound trains can run with it, northbounds must switch to an Express designation at Girard, then back to Girard/8th Street at North Philadelphia or Erie (usually Erie), because the Fern Rock/8th Street designation moves Ridge trains to the Local tracks, although, under current operations, Ridge trains use the express tracks from Girard to Olney or Fern Rock. For one thing, this would give them a designation for Ridge trains only going to Olney, and, with that added, they'd probably add one for an Express Ridge to Fern Rock.
All WMATA trains have flip dot signs except the new CAF cars.
Today's objectives:
Ride the CAF Cars on the Green Line
Test out my new digital camera
Got on the Red Line (Rohr 1037) and took it to Gallery Place. Went downstairs and photographed some trains as they went by. I also made one movie clip. After about 20 minutes, a train of 5000 Series cars came in towards Greenbelt, led by 5086. Here are my observations:
The new interior is nice, although the white walls reflect the flourescent lights way too much (same as on the R142/R142A). This is especially bad on the head ends of the "B" (odd) cars where there is a large empty space on the right side behind the cab. On the Bredas, they have an ad in this spot. On the CAFs, there isn't even an ad holder.
The interior LED on all the trains I rode just said GREEN
The exterior LEDs are very easy to read although I would suggest they make the front LED only show the line color. It is hard to see the green lines on the side and when these trains start running elsewhere, it will get worse.
There are small lights over each door that illuminate if the door is open (like on the R142)
There is a red light that flashes as the doors close (most of the time).
The doors opening and doors closing announcements have changed. I don't like them much.
The train has AC motors. While they sound somewhat similar to the R142A, it really as close as someone else here posted (I think it was Bill Newkirk).
There are no holders for the metal line color plates (nor are they used at all)
The train is much quieter than the older ones when it speeds up, slows down, and is cruising at slow speed, but at higher speeds, these cars are much louder. The ride is always smooth.
I took the train to West Hyattsville, where I changed sides and took Breda 2058 to Columbia Heights, so I could play around a bit with some of the camera's features. At Columbia Heights, I reboarded the same train I had before, except I was now in car 5023, which was now at the front (heading towards Branch Avenue). I took the train all the way to Southern Avenue. We passed through the downtown stations at about 3:15 and it was quite crowded from L'Enfant Plaza to Anacostia. All the Green Line trains I saw were 6 cars long.
At Southern Avenue, I got off and got a picture of the CAF train leaving together with a train of Bredas arriving in the other direction. I then waited for the next train, which was also CAF cars (I figured this out when I saw it at West Hyattsville). I continued to Branch Avenue. The head end on this train was 5018. On my travels, the highest numbered set I saw was 5096-5097 and the lowest was 5013, but with only two trains in service (from what I could tell), that only accounts for 12 of the cars. Metro has approximately 38 of the 192.
At Branch Avenue, I ran upstairs and got on the N11 bus to King Street. The bus was Flxible Metro-B 9234. The N11 and N13 run out of Four Mile Run Division in Crystal City. The bus stop is in a very poor location for anyone coming off the metro. It is in the middle of the "HOV Parking Spaces", which is to the right when you exit the station on the side with all the other buses. There are no signs and the only reason I found the stop without help was I saw the letters HOV on a sign on one of the lamps (after walking around all the bus bays and it was now about 3:46 and the bus was due to leave at 3:45). I ran over and luckily, the bus was just arriving. I was the only passenger, and I chatted with the driver as we drove along the Beltway. He told me that he could use the shoulder if need be although his strategy to get through the backups more easily was to use the left-most lane, even though the drivers are told stay in the right. He said as long as he wasn't going to be picking up passengers, there was no reason for him to be in the right lane not going anywhere. Despite our leaving Branch Avenue late, we arrived at King Street on time. The whole trip took just over 20 minutes. He told me that on the return to Branch Avenue, there would be about 15 people. The Maryland bound trip would also stop at the Oxon Hill Park and Ride, which is right of Exit 3 in Maryland (I think, don't hold me to this).
I reentered the Metro and heard a train come in. It was a Blue Line, I ran upstairs and got on the 2nd car as the doors were closing, 3012. At Braddock Road, I moved up to the first car, 3013. At National Airport, I got off and took two pictures of the new signs showing the "official name of the institution" that the station serves, which are monstrosities. I will post them as soon as I download them off the digital. You can clearly see the control tower in both pictures unless you are blind (in which case you wouldn't be able to see or be confused by the old signs saying National Airport). The next train was a Yellow Line train and I got on that. The lead this time was 4022. I took that to Gallery Place, where I went upstairs and caught Breda 3026 to go home. The last viechle I rode yesterday was Ride-On Orion I 925544A, on which I had to help direct the driver. It was her first time doing the route. From what she told me, she was VR and had just finished training. I saw someone else move into the seat that I had been sitting in when I got off, so I assume that person started to direct her. Ironically, I was wearing my WMATA employee shirt, but she didn't notice it until I pointed it out.
Pictures coming to www.orenstransitpage.com hopefully by the end of the weekend!
I just thought of this: With the Green, Yellow, Orange, and Blue lines being easily connected, why is Green the only one to use the CAF cars? Last time I was in DC, the CAF consist never left Green Line territory. They could easily pull one to Huntington, or Franconia-Springfield, then back to New Carrollton. Not seeing it on the Red Line, I'll forgive, since the physical connections are limited. Then again, why not deliver a few to Shady Grove or Brentwood yard instead of Greenbelt?
The Green Line is the most heavily impacted by the car shortage because of the opening of the stations past Anacostia. Ridership is far greater than was anticipated. So, Green gets dibs on the new cars for the time being. (It's probably also an appeasement to prevent the folks served by the Green Line from whining about racial discrimination -- Green serves areas that haven't benefitted quite as much from the economic growth that the rest of the area has. Giving them brand new cars instead of "hand me downs" means one less thing to complain about.)
The CAF cars can theoretically run on the Yellow Line, since some Yellow Line runs operate from Greenbelt Yard, but I doubt it.
When the Bredas first came, they ran on all 4 lines so the public could see them but were then restricted to the Red Line since that line was next to open.
Open where? All four lines existed when the Bredas came? The first time I ever visited DC, I was either five or six years old, meaning it was in 1987 or 1988. I don't recall whether I rode a Breda or a Rohr car; they all look alike when you're young. Then again, there's minimal difference between them anyway.
From what "Metro at 25" says, the Bredas came in May, 1983. The next opening was Huntington, then Grosvenor, then Shady Grove. None of the Green line existed yet, unless you count the shared Yellow Line segment. So I don't see how the Red was next to open, unless you mean that Shady Grove was going to have a yard and maintenance facility. I don't know when the facility in Alexandria opened, but I'd guess it was just before the extension to Van Dorn Street.
Speaking of the yards, I am curious as to how they plan on setting up New York Ave. Station. Isn't that within the Red Line segment that's split wide apart on either side of Brentwood Yard?
And as far as where the CAF cars can run, they can theoretically hit all five lines from Greenbelt Yard.
To Red: Access via old Commuter Shortcut route, bypassing Fort totten
To Yellow: I need not explain this. But I will. Just change designations before L'Enfant Plaza to access the Fenwick Bridge and the segment to National Airport. The Green line is pretty much an extended Yellow Line anyway.
To Blue: Change designation from Yellow to Blue before King Street to reach Franconia-Springfield, or short-turn at National Airport and leave out as a Blue Line.
To Orange: Change from Blue to Orange designation before Stadium-Armory or wherever the signal change is needed to access the New Carrollton trackage. Or, short-turn at Stadium-Armory, and leave the pocket track as an Orange train.
I'm sure the Alexandria, Shady Grove, Brentwood, New Carrollton, and West Falls Church facilities can handle CAF cars just as well as Greenbelt (and Branch Avenue, when it opens. BTW, what name are they giving that yard? Really, the station itself is three-quarters of a mile east of Branch Avenue in Silver Hill, MD. I don't expect they'd name the yard for the sation when the station's name is a bit misleading.)
Yes - I'd agree. Now they're very easy to find as nearly all the trains on the Green line are CAF cars.
Wayne
I''m fed up with NJT- Nasty, Junky, terrible and every heavy thunderstorm delays the road big time. Please e-mail me off-site for areas with affordable apartments (1 BR or larger). It would have to be near The NYC Transit system (please- no private bus lines unless the area is in wlaking distance (1 mile or less) of the NYCT system.
Dave- Please forgive this. I am asking resplies to be via e-mail. I'll pay more next month for this one-time message.
Alright, it's like 10:30 AM this morning, I'm at Atlantic waiting for an uptown Lex express. I notice a 4 come in from Manhattan and dump. I guess (correctly) it's one of those crazy neverending GO where the 5 terminates at Bowling Green and the 4 at Atlantic. I get on, and a few minutes later either the C/O or a platform C/O (there were at least 7 uniformed crewmembers on the platform, so I'm not sure exactly what he was) peeks his head in the car, I ask if it's going to Manhattan and he motions for me to get off the train and says "take the 1".
A few minutes later I see the train pull out towards Nevins, with passengers. WTF?
He probably figured the 1 would be leaving before he would. Or, that you were asking to go further into Brooklyn (as everyone else probably was) and gave the response to that question.
And the 5 is supposed to terminate at Bowling Green all times except rush hours, that part is not a G.O.
New York City Transit Tests Concrete Ties on Brighton Line
NYCT has installed about 50 ft of concrete ties on one express track just south of the Sheepshead Bay station on the Brighton (Q) line. This experiment will test the durability and cost-effectiveness of concrete ties on a heavily-used rapid-transit line. If successful, look for more concrete ties appearing on outdoor subway lines!
maybe this is a dumb question, but comparing wood to concrete, I'd think that concrete would win hands down, especially in the outdoors where the elements rot away at wood. Why even bother "testing" on a small section of track, instead of just installing as much as they can afford to when they can afford it?
(maybe this is a dumb question, but comparing wood to concrete, I'd think that concrete would win hands down, especially in the outdoors where the elements rot away at wood. Why even bother "testing" on a small section of track, instead of just installing as much as they can afford to when they can afford it?)
Some believe that since concrete has no give, the added shock cracks subway trucks. Also, there is a question of how the added weight will affect elevated lines.
it was the fall of 1961. I skipped a day of high school, took he train to Balto, and attended the stockholders meeting of the B&O (I owned two shares) The newly appointed Pres announced an AAR sponsored test of concrete ties to be installed on a section of Seaboard Air Line. Maybe the TA should look up the results.
Notice it is also on a curve.
They wouldn't go on elevated structures. Just ballasted embankments and perhaps "viaducts" (concrete els that are not earthen embankments.) For steel el structures, I heard Chicago has tested recycled milk jug plastic ties.
Yes, I've heard that poly-composite ties may be the way to go in the future. They have the 'give' that concrete doesn't have, as well they are light enough in weight to be used on El structures...
Metro North has them on all three of their lines, I think on the New Haven line as far up as Bridgeport-since the last time I checked.
Rapid transit (NYCT) operates more frequently with varying loads - commuter rail (MN) is less frequent and with more uniform loading. What might hold up fine for 5-10 years with one or two trains an hour over the course of 12-16 hours per day 5 or 6 days a week might crumble to dust in just months under a train every 10 minutes every day.
Denver's entire light rail system uses concrete ties except at switches. Not a single tie has cracked along the original route in almost eight years. Those Siemens LRVs aren't exactly lightweights, either. They weigh 44 tons.
But do they routinely carry the same load as a packed 8-car consist of R68s in a typical NYC rush hour? And, I would think that those cars are designed to work with the track design. NYC's existing rolling stock was designed for what was predominant in the system 20-40 years ago, so there may be effects impacting wear and tear on the car systems that can't be mitigated without considerable expense (or until the current fleet is replaced with newer designs that won't suffer).
if this workes will they put it on elevated parts like the west end for example. i doubt it because wont it be too heavy???
If they do this to elevated portions of the NYC Subway System, they will have to upgrade all Support Beams, so it can with stand all that weight.
WOW! Adream come true. Years ago, when they replaced badly rotten sections of track on the Brighton, and had first seen concrete on Septa trackage, wished they would use concrete. But everytime I asked, I was always told no, they would never try it. First they worried about cracking. But now concrete is used everywhere, including on MTA commuter lines, so it must be proving itself. Then, it was "not worth it" or something like that. I had asked and got some answer like that recently, but little did I know they were about to install a section on the Brighton. Must have just gone in within the last couple of months.
If cracking is a problum use british 2 part concrete ties. Which look like 2 concrete blocks connected by a metal bar.
Some test eh.... both trucks of a car will not be on the test section at the same time.
Elias
Really? I wonder why they're taking such precautions. I understand it's concrete, but you never know...
After the fiasco the MTA went through three years ago, having to replace the cracking concrete ties on the new 63rd St. tunnel section in Manhattan, no doubt they want ot make sure that doesn't happen again before they put down concrete along the full open cut section on the Brighton line.
Oh, Ok. Though you'd think concrete would crack under such pressure. Do they add anything to the concrete to reinforce it?
I'm not sure how they're doing it -- someone with closer ties (no pun intended) to the maintenance department might know.
For highway projects, many states have gone to a "continuious pour" method for laying out concrete roadbed, in which 5-10 miles of lane can be laid out without the old seams every 100 yards or so that would fill with water in the winter, then freeze and crack (though the seam between lanes is still there), leading to those wonderful non-intentional speed bumps ever vehicle's suspension loves to travel over. However, with the textured surface, raised tie area and bolt-hole/drain hole requirements that pouring concrete ties and trackbed require, I don't know if the same "continuous pour" methodology could be used.
Thanks, you've made the concept a lot more clearer for me!!
Why is there so much redundancy on the Transit Authority? Major railroads and transit agencies have tested concrete ties since God knows when; why can't the Transit Authority rely on the results of those tests as opposed to wasting more of the taxpayers' money on redundant tests and surveys. There are some people in the TA that are trying to justify their phoney baloney jobs!
Because Transit cars are different, their suspensions, and the way that they were made.
NYCT built (had built) cars to their specifications to fill a constelation of needs.
Changing part of the equasion (Ieputting concrete ties in place of wood) affects the other parts. Perhaps the cars will not run smoothly enough. If this passes, they may extend the stretch and then see if the trucks can stand up to the abuse.
Sure the concrete ties can stand up to a mile long freight train, but what about the start and stop operations of the subway?
You test things before you foist them on the system as a done deal!
For over a hundred years railroad ties made of wood and soaked in creosote worked for railroads, transit systems, trolley cars, etc. whether it was high speed service or slow stop and go vehicles. According to your statement there must be a couple dozen types of concrete ties out there for the numerous applications. If that's so, then the right type should be able to be picked out of the line-up without too much fuss. Whatever happened to Quality Control? Can't these equations of weight, length and other variables be fed into computers to get the correct type. How stupid it would be to take a guess at which tie is correct and have to replace the trucks. I remember well the fiasco the TA put itself through when it ordered the wrong trucks for the R46 cars despite Rockwell's opposition. The TA then proceeded to put Pullman Standard and, I trust, Rockwell out of business. Is that what the TA will try to do to the concrete company when the trucks start to crack or other problems are incurred?
An adendum to my own post: The only thing that short 200 foot test section is going to tell the TA is whether the concrete tie will hold up under the weight or crumble. Damage to the integrity of the vehicle cannot be ascertained under those conditions. What about using the Pueblo, Co. testing facility. That would be great Quality Control.
Rockwell is a conglomerate, it's still in business.
The division of Rockwell which produced those trucks, LFM-Atchisson
(Locomotive Finished Materials of Atchisson, Kansas) was sold to EMD, which shut it down, IIRC
I had wondered when NYCT would do the concrete tie thing on outdoor lines. It's good they considered it because concrete ties have up to 50 years of life expectancy. I think they will work because think of the busy BNSF and Union Pacific coal hauler lines in Nebraska and out west where hundreds of very heavy coal trains, along with 100,000+ lb AC44 and SD90 locomotives, daily operate over these kind of track ties, and they hold up well and have been doing well for years. The locos and the trains themselves are much heavier than any of our loaded passenger trains, and they run at a rate of 60 - 70 trains per day, and that's counting loaded trains, not work trains or light trains, which push the number higher, and with the loaded trains passing these lines at this number per day, the track stress level is either equivalent to or even greater than the stresses our tracks undergo daily, not to mention the highly varied weather conditions their tracks are subject to from sub zero cold to 100+ degree temps, so I think these concrete tie tracks can hold up more than well for our trains (also think of how well the LIRR Main Line is holding out with their ties with 500+ trains daily running over them in each direction every day). What I would like to know is if they have considered using welded rail for a smoother ride?
I know that the construction at the Atlantic Avenue Station has been going on for months, but does anyone know what exactly they're trying to do?
Among other things improve the customer flow from the N/R to the Q to the IRT and the IND.
IND???? I did not know they building a passageway to Lafayette/FultonSt Stations(closest IND station in the area).
They're not, though I think it's a good idea. In fact, I've proposed it in the office as an alternative to the LIRR taking over the Cranberry Street Tubes. It's really a MTA thing at this point, though, not NYCT.
David
WHich Atlantic Avenue do you mean? If you mean the L trai, they are memoving all the Atlantic Avenue platforms, except for the current Canarsie-bound platform. The el structure containing the current Manhattan-bound platform will be completely removed. BTW, I haven't been there since January, how is the progress progressing?
I assume he's talking about Atlantic/Flatbush. Then again he might be refering to Atlantic on the L line.
On which line? Carnise - 14th Street BMT (L) Or Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street Complex (1)(2)(4)<5>(M)(N)(Q)(R)(W) & LIRR?
The Brighton Line end of the project is looking better and better eveyrday. Florescent lighting and brand new white shiny tiles. A new floor surface and several new staircases.
On Tuesday and again today, I saw the M-7s out at Hillside Facility. They were readily viewable from the employee station & the mainline tracks. 7008 was parked just behind what appear to be the 'Vendor' trailers and next to what looks like a new simulator.
They're installing the square wheels required for the LIRR.
-Hank
Are they getting the square wheels from the Blockoland parking lot tram?
No, Naporano Iron and Metals had a garage sale on some R10 rolling stock.
What are square wheels?
That is the wheel defect which landed that caboose on the Island of Misfit Toys.
Wheels which are not round. DUH!
LOL. unless you have been towing it with the handbrake on. Like VIA's Genesis which has a 2 inch flat spot.
The reference is a sarcastic one aimed at the LIRR's tendency to let flat spots develop on train wheels due to the infrequency of visits to a truing machine. The electric trains seem to be afflicted worse with this than the pulled trains. The result is a deafening clatter when the train is at speed.
Been on one of those. The defuser for the light over the railfan windows was rattling to pain the your ear.
Dmn!!!! i should not have slept on the 7:12 out of bayshore.
also, i have never before been on a train that went westbound over the Bethpage-Babylon connection.
the DE engines are wonderful, Bayshore to penn station, i get to sleep
%)
Take the 5:10PM from Penn Station to Speonke or the 4:44 PM from Hunters point to Patchogue. Both go out the main line, past the Hillside facility and across the Central branch. 4:44 stops at Jamaica, Mineola & Babylon. The 5:10 stops at Jamaica & Babylon.
When did the 5:10pm to Speonk (the South Shore dual-mode) start taking the mainline ? I have been away from commuting on the LIRR for 10 years, but I remember when that was a NYP-Babylon MU AND a Hunterspoint-Speonk train, and both took the South Shore 3 minutes apart.
When they eliminated the stops at Amityville, Copaigue, and Lindenhurst.
Will PATH get any new cars anytime soon??
yeah the Pa 5s
Anybody got any Tech Specs on this Train?
All i know is that they will be AC powered, as well as the PA4s getting AC power too
The NYCTA should have taken the K class cars
IIRC, I've seen the list for Tech Specs of the PA-5's on PATH's official webpage. (It is not path.com) If you type in "Port-Authority Trans Hudson" on a search engine, you should have no trouble locating the official page.
www.panynj.gov
They're planning on purchasing a bunch of new cars to replace the PA 1-3s, plus a GOH of the PA-4s. But I don't think they've even been designed yet.
Since they're going to 10-car trains for the WTC run, they will need more cars. This year has been an expensive one for the PA.
Right. SO everyone take photos of the "First car on WTC bound trains will not open at Exchange Place" signs, since they're extending EXP to 10 cars.
The tie replacemnet project on track #1 has reached Haddonfield. Over the last week they have piled ties through the station and out to about the former location of VERNON interlocking. They do equipment placement work during the mid-day, with wrong railing. At night I can hear the actual replacement work going on with the hi-rail Mack dump trucks tooting and the balast tampers brushing.
Today I caught a truck dropping 3rd rail attachment hardware. Its cheap plastic crap, not nearly as elegant as the old ceramic musherooms. I wonder what they are going to do with the musherooms? I'd definitly buy one.
Hell, you want a mushroom, go ask them. SETPA was selling old Cinestons when the Almond Joys went to the scrapper.
Are the new insulators the little dull plastic things that the LIRR uses? I can't see the logic of them - a rough surface is going to collect dirt which is bad.
The mushrooms tend to get broken over the years, though. I don't know if they explode or get wrecked physically.
I don't think so. They resemble the white concrete ones but looks to be made of PVC. The ourward appearance is a 4" PVC pipe stuck up into a 5" one.
Are they "glossy" or "matte" finish? Anything less than a true "glossy" finish on an insulator will allow a conductive film to form and eventually flash over. Insulator design is a science unto itself.
The old new ones are matte. The new new ones are glossy.
Ya mean they don’t just hose ’em down when they get dirty?!
Takes a big step back…
You're joking, but believe it or not, they do actually hose insulators down in some places under certain conditions. I think they use distilled water or some sort of chemical stuff. Pure water actually isn't that great a conductor.
They could just turn the power off for maintainence.
Check out this website.
http://www.aeropower.com.au/site_vivid/pages/live.html
hehehe. probbably cheaper than turning off the line, too.
Can't get a shock if you're not completing a circuit. Can't do that when you're 50 feet in the air and 50 feet from anything grounded :)
The third rail extension plates and insulators are fiberglass. This material was used to reduce the potential for stray currents.
There is not enough voltage for a third rail support to explode. Insulators explode when there is a stripping away of the glaze allowing moisture to impregnate the porcelain. Eventually enough moisture builds up to create a resistive path right thru the insulator. under high voltage this creates enough heat to make the porcelain explode like a popcorn kernel.
There is not enough voltage for a third rail support to explode. Insulators explode when there is a stripping away of the glaze (usually because of a flashover) allowing moisture to impregnate the porcelain. Eventually enough moisture builds up to create a resistive path right thru the insulator. Under high voltage this creates enough heat to make the porcelain explode like a popcorn kernel, this usually happens during a rain a low voltage insulator just becomes "lossy" Plastic insulators can also flash over, in this case the dirt film becomes vitrified making the insulator impossible to clean and lossy. When the voltage is simply too high and overwhelms the insulator, the energy takes a direct path right thru the insulator, vaporizing everything in it's path. This is referred to as "puncture". Punctured porcelain insulators will shatter but not as violently as a "moist" one. I don't know how a plastic insulator behaves under puncture but the issue is moot because it takes at least around 70 kv. to puncture an insulator.
Some years ago, my former co-workers at City Planning, those in the Demographics division, wrote about the Flushing Line to illustrate the diversity of New York City. In a report on immigration, they called it the "Orient Express." The media picked up on their description of changing ethnic enclaves station by station. Molly O'Neil, the Times food reporter, ended up going on a food tour with them. Publicity grew, and in the end the Flushing Line was designated a national historic trail.
As Brooklynite, I'm jealous, so I'm thinking of writing Dr. Joe Salvo at City Planning to suggest that he highlight Brooklyn's greatest line, for benefit of tourists and social historians.
Now, if I wanted Brooklyn's "best" line in a transit sense, I'd probably say the Fulton Street line, but that's not what I mean.
As Brooklyn's "greatest," in the sense that the Flushing Line is great -- ethnically, historically, etc. I'd go with the Brighton. You've got Juniors and Downtown, Park Slope yuppies at 7th, Prospect Park and the Botanic Gardens, West Indians, the ritz of Prospect Park South, various flavours of Jews, the Chinese, Russians, Etc, ending with Coney Island.
Any other nominations?
The Sea Beach in interesting in that sense too, but I'll agree that the Brighton Line is tops.
Well, the 7 line is now the "Chupultepec Express". And I call Flushing Meadows Park, "Chupultepec Park" because of the quantity of Mexicans who are always present. You can only find a handful of Asians on the 7 line these days, and they all get off at Main St.
What amazed me today, was the relationship between public facilities and the Hispanic demographic. Especially beaches. I went to Rockaway Beach for the first time in 8 years today. I was amazed by the changes. When I was a kid, Beach 98 was the Puerto Rican Beach. Beach 108 was the "Guido" or Italian section, and 116 was for "Rock Heads", or just plain people.
Today, Beach 108 was a Ghost Town. There wasn't even a lifeguard on duty there. The closest lifeguard was at Beach 105. Beach 116, the last stop on the subway, was mostly Puerto Rican. Beyond 116, the beaches were mostly white. I attribute this to the fact that the higher beach numbers are not accessible by subway. The same can be said for Jones Beach. You have buses which connect to the LIRR, thus a heavy Hispanic concentration.
(What amazed me today, was the relationship between public facilities and the Hispanic demographic.)
Any demographics. It is noted that Sunset Park became a 3rd chinatown because of its connection to the origninal via the "H" bridge tracks. Once the H tracks were closed, you have many more Chinese moving to Bensonhurst (B) and Sheepshead (D), enough to cause an uproar when Grand Street closed. Now you have Russians moving north from Brighton Beach, and yuppies rolling down the F line into Kensignton.
I can't imagine legit yuppie's living anywhere but Manhattan, Brooklyn Heights, or Hoboken. I do know that some try to live in Park Slope, but end up moving back because F train service is poor.
I predict W.125 in Harlem will be the next big thing for yuppie's. Whenever I work the 1 line, I can see the changes in demographics at that station.
They are also moving down the L line into williamsburg, and a few are even getting as far down as Jefferson where factories are being turned into lofts.
If the lofts make it to Jerrerson, I wonder what will happen to the "ladies" that hang out there will go?
Maybe the new people in the lofts will keep them company?
Maybe the "ladies" will make house calls.
God. It's amazing. It won't be long before some bright, young, enterprising promoter realizes the potential of the Mexican market in NY, and brings my favorite form of entertainment to town. Lucha Libre!
I can't imagine legit yuppie's living anywhere but Manhattan, Brooklyn Heights, or Hoboken. I do know that some try to live in Park Slope, but end up moving back because F train service is poor.
I predict W.125 in Harlem will be the next big thing for yuppie's. Whenever I work the 1 line, I can see the changes in demographics at that station.
And in Brooklyn it's Bed-Stuy (now being called Bedford-Stuyvesant Heights by realtors). In fact it's pretty much all of Brownstone Brooklyn.
The next hot commodity...the fast & reliable Brighton Line. Newspaper articles about the large, stately Victorian houses near Brooklyn College will definitely whet some appetites.
-Alex V.
Whatever! They've been saying this about Astoria for 10 years. Next to Brooklyn Heights, I'd have to rate Astoria as the most accesible neighborhood in the Queens or Brooklyn to Manhattan. When I start seeing Starbucks and Barnes & Nobles in some of these neighborhoods, maybe I'll believe that they're up-and-coming neighborhoods. But for now, they are what they are, and no newspapers articles will change my mind.
I thought that there was a small Chinese enclave on the Culver, near Kings Highway. I think that's part of Bensonhurst already, ne?
-J!
Hey J, if can get more Chinese people near the Sea Beach route, would you change your mind?
No. Nice try though. :)
-J!
Oh well, at least I tried. BTW, I have seen a number of Chinese people around the New Utrecht-62nd Street stops on the Sea Beach and West End. That used to be exclusively Italian but it one of the many neighborhoods that seem to be changing. You sure you won't now reconsider?
Larry, without a doubt, the excellent Brighton Beach Line (including the Franklin Avenue Shuttle which was part of it's original route) is the Numero Uno choice for #1 rapid transit line of neighborhoods that are interesting and ethnically diverse.
(As Siskel and Ebert used to say: 'Two thumbs UP!'
I agree with you 100% Doug, the Franklin should be included as an integral part of the Numero Uno, as it was historically. And with the rebuilt stations, that just adds the icing to the cake.
Uh Oh, here we go again with the Brighton propaganda machine swinging into action.
Why, but of COURSE!
;-D
Where were you on Memorial Day Weekend? I looked for you on both the Redbirds and Triplex trips but you were nowhere to be found. I did assume you would at least ride the Triplex since it was also used on the Brighton as well as my immortal Sea Beach.
I WAS there if you looked good enough. I have some great shots of the D-Types on the Franklin Shuttle ROW.
SBF, you should've been looking closer to the scenery as you stared out the railfan window...
I think you got me there. I got near the railfan window and though it was crowded around there I couldn't move my eyes to see anything else. I did walk through the cars, though, looking for you. When the Triplex went on the Sea Beach Express tracks to Coney Island, two other guys generously gave up their part of the railfan windown and Mark Feinman and I had it all to ourselves until we reached the Coney Island Yards.
Soitanly!
The Brighton needs no propiganda.
Fred, there you go again. I'm with Doug and Pigs of Royal Island. This is not propaganda. As my late grandmother would have put it, it's the "honest truth".
And Bob's not even chiming in!:-)
Fred knows he's outnumbered by 10 to 1.
I would have to say Brighton too, coupled with the Franklin Shuttle. That whole package is probably the best. Park Slope, Prospect Park, Alphabet City, Little Odessa and Coney Island. Give one line in Brooklyn that can beat THAT combo!
It's a royal flush straight down.
-J!
It's a flush all right but the only people so impressed would be Tidy Bowl.
Hardy, Har, Har!
More specifically, the Mets the way they've been playing.
Back in 1977, Shea Stadium came to be known as Grant's Tomb after board chairman M. Donald Grant traded Tom Seaver. Now it's known as the Toilet Bowl.
The Mets have a chance to turn it around starting tonight in a big four game series with the Braves, followed by a three game set with the Yankees at Yankee Stadium. It is put up or shut up time. I see that Jeromy Burnitz is starting to hit some and it would be good to see Alomar, Vaughn and Cedeno do the same.
On that other matter, the fact is I do like the Brighton line. Next to the Sea Beach it is my favorite, and my favorite all time stop as a kid was Prospect Park Station where I used to disembark for Ebbets Field. But I just like to give the Brighton boys a little trouble.
Well, they lost last night. It's the same old story. To borrow a phrase from Damn Yankees, "Those damn Braves - why can't we beat them?"
The Mets won tonight----Yahoo. They gained the game back they lost which means they've gained nothing during the first two games. Alomar, Vaughn, Burnitz, Cedeno----When the hell are they going to start hitting?
Perhaps when they face a pitcher or two who will throw half-speed pitches right down the middle of the plate.
It was nice to see them beat the Braves - for once - last night.
Sorry British James, but my wife just returned from a business trip to London, and her report on the tubes was not good. She didn't like how deep they were, and how long it took to get down there (isn't that what we're planning on Second Avenue?) And, she said it was brutally hot, and you had to change trains to get anywhere. Finally, there was no express service.
She brought home maps that made the London system look bigger and more comprehensive (with commuter rail thrown in) than NYC. Even so, she didn't like it, compared with the NYC subway.
The London Underground looks all the world like PATH, and nothing like the NYCS. Narrow rounded cars operating deep. The stations are not quite as bad as PATH's, though.
I got completely lost at Bank.
The London Underground looks all the world like PATH, and nothing like the NYCS. Narrow rounded cars operating deep. The stations are not quite as bad as PATH's, though.
Much of it is VERY like PATH, but much more extensive.
I got completely lost at Bank.
EVERYONE gets lost at Bank.
I didn’t get lost at Bank. However, I’m old enough to remember when Bank was two stations (it’s now three, but they have been glommed together).
Underground Bank consisted of the Northern Line/Circle/Metropolitan line stations, which are in reality a block or so away at the Monument, a station that was called Monument, with what was euphemistically called an “escalator” connection: an escalator, long tunnel and a spiral stair connection to the Central Line Bank Station.
Now there is a lot more underground than there used to be, and I’m not sure exactly where they brought in the DLR terminus. However, when you realise that it’s two stations with a connection in the fare zone, the concept becomes simpler.
The best NY analogy I can think of is the 42nd Street station, where the 8th Avenue IND is a block away from the BMT & IRT lines.
John
I’m not sure exactly where they brought in the DLR terminus.
Directly below the Northern Line Platforms!
However, when you realise that it’s two stations with a connection in the fare zone, the concept becomes simpler.
Very true, but it never ceases to be a maze. The connecting passages between Bank and Monument are very odd for the reason they used to be part of the abandoned King William St station.
The best NY analogy I can think of is the 42nd Street station, where the 8th Avenue IND is a block away from the BMT & IRT lines.
At least NYC has a street grid!
Isn't it true that London tube cars have no air-conditioning (gasp!)?
Those crazy Uro-peeins aren't much enamored of air conditioning.
Those crazy Uro-peeins aren't much enamored of air conditioning.
Correction. In Yurp (as Dubya calls it) proper, they love their air-con. In Britain, it rarely gets above 80F (27C), so it's not really necessary except for a few days each year. The response on those few days is to go to Yurp if you can afford it, Blackpool, Bognor or Llandudno if you can't.
(In Yurp (as Dubya calls it) proper, they love their air-con. In Britain, it rarely gets above 80F (27C), so it's not really necessary except for a few days each year. The response on those few days is to go to Yurp if you can afford it, Blackpool, Bognor or Llandudno if you can't.)
My wife happened to be in London at the wrong time, during a heat wave, and that contributed to her negative impression of the tubes. She also noted that the only people wearing shorts were Americans. I guess it doesn't make sense to buy them for use two weeks a year.
My wife happened to be in London at the wrong time, during a heat wave, and that contributed to her negative impression of the tubes. She also noted that the only people wearing shorts were Americans. I guess it doesn't make sense to buy them for use two weeks a year.
She probably also noticed that few people not wearing shorts were capable of a conversation!
I was also surprised when I first rode the London Underground that all of the rolling stock at the time (I have not been there since 1988, so I don't know what the new rolling stock is like) used spur-cut bull-and-pinion gears and make the "whining" sound heard on pre-war New York subway cars.
Actually, according to London Underground, (here), the real reason is that there is nowhere to put the heat.
Since the tubes are so far down and relatively small, there would need to be much more air forced out of the system to allow the trains to dump hot air in the tunnels without a whole load of problems.
Since there are few tubes in the NYC Subway system, AC is much easier, (at least in the trains), but is there anyone else who feels the heatwave on the platform when the train comes into the station?
Isn't it true that London tube cars have no air-conditioning (gasp!)?
Except in February, so it seems. In the Summer, of course, all the heaters miraculously start working.
NYC has the same thing! I thought it was something that just happened here.
NYC has the same thing! I thought it was something that just happened here.
I reckon it's those international terrorists Al-Qar-Lobby bribing a few officials to get people off the rails...
Sorry British James, but my wife just returned from a business trip to London, and her report on the tubes was not good.
No need to apologise - the Tube isn't very good!
She didn't like how deep they were, and how long it took to get down there
They're not bad if you know which stations and lines are best avoided. Generally speaking, the Jubilee Line from Baker Street south (east) is a ridiculous depth and the Victoria Line is pretty deep for its whole length. The Northern Line, apart from North of Highgate is also quite deep - some stations, such as Angel, Archway verge on absurd. The Bakerloo Line is the best of the true tube lines. It's even on the surface North of Queens Park (don't get off at Willesden Junction though - it's a very long walk out of the station into not a very nice part of Middlesex). Even on its tube section, stations like Marylebone aren't too bad. The Central Line is another "deep" Line and that depth isn't much in places. All its branches end up on the surface. Likewise the Piccadilly Line - with the exception of the appalling station at Covent Garden, it's not too bad.
Escalators generally help make the stations feel less deep than they are - especially if, like me, you run on the left of them!
(isn't that what we're planning on Second Avenue?)
Only certain of the options. Don't do it!!!
And, she said it was brutally hot
Must have found the one warm day of the year.
you had to change trains to get anywhere.
Agreed. Especially now the Jubilee Line doesn't go to Charing X any more. A few words on changes:
Anything withing the Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City, Circle, East London and District Lines doesn't tend to be too bad. The exception is Hammersmith - the H&C Line is in a different station the other side of a Shopping Mall and Hammersmith Broadway - it's signposted, but it's further than some non-connected stations. The Piccadilly Line is also easy to get onto from Baron's Court westwards. Baron's Court, Hammersmith, Turnham Green and Acton Town are all cross-platform.
It is not worth changing at Earl's Court if you are going to Olympia or West Brompton. It is quicker to walk.
Covent Garden is a waste of time. It is quicker to walk from Leicester Square than get out of Covent Garden station, even if you are on the Piccadilly Line to begin with.
Victoria, Piccadilly Circus, Oxford Circus, Tottenham Court Rd, Charing Cross, Waterloo and Euston are all horrible places to even get into the station, let alone change trains. In rush hours forget about it.
Paddington is really three stations. Remember that when you end up walking half a mile. If you want to change from the District/Circle to the H&C, even going to Edgware Road is better, despite the fact that trains randomly seem to sit around for ten minutes there.
Bank/Monument is a joke. Only use it if you're starting there. Otherwise, there are a zillion ways to avoid it. It is confusing. The District and Circle Lines are actually in a separate station, linked to Bank by the passageways of a closed station (King William St). The only really easy connections at Bank are between the Northern Line and the Docklands Light Railway and between the Northern Line and Waterloo & City Line. I get confused trying to find the Central Line in that station!
Finally, there was no express service.
Oh yes there is. The Piccadilly Line IS the District Line Express in West London. And what do you think Fast Amersham means?
She brought home maps that made the London system look bigger and more comprehensive (with commuter rail thrown in) than NYC.
Depending on which measure you use, you can make either seem bigger. Commuter rail vs tube is a rather difficult distinction in London. What is the Bakerloo Line North of Queens Park for instance? Most of the Metropolitan Line seems like commuter rail although it's officially Underground, and the Northern City line is officially WAGN commuter rail, but effectively a large bore tube line.
Its comprehensivity is hampered by the irritating number of non-connections. The Central Line between Ruislip Gardens and West Ruislip and the Piccadilly Line between Ruislip and Ickenham cross eachother, but there is no easy way to connect between the two. Equally Kenton (Bakerloo) and Northwick Park (Met) are close but not connected. Another example is Wembley Central not connecting to the Marylebone - Wycombe Line which passes overhead just North of the station.
Sudbury Hill (Piccadilly) and Sudbury Hill Harrow (Marylebone - Wycombe) are VERY close, but no connection is shown. There are examples of that sort of thing everywhere, but the map being schematic doesn't show you which stations are like that as opposed to the Ruislip problem.
Even so, she didn't like it, compared with the NYC subway.
I don't blame her. They are very different systems. NYC would win for me, if only you could use the Unlimited Metrocard on NJT, PATH, MNRR and LIRR.
There has been some considerable rationalization of the London system, where one can switch from the Underground to what used to be British Rail to buses with a single all-around pass.
I have not been to London in years, but the last time I was there, we had conversations of the sort James alludes too, where some stations should be closed, while some new ones should be built.
If one could single-fare the subways, Metro North, LIRR, PATH and perhaps some of NJT, as well as all the buses, just imagine how commuting patterns would change.
There has been some considerable rationalization of the London system, where one can switch from the Underground to what used to be British Rail to buses with a single all-around pass.
Undoubtably, and don't forget the DLR!
I have not been to London in years, but the last time I was there, we had conversations of the sort James alludes too, where some stations should be closed, while some new ones should be built.
Ah - so many of them and practically no money!
If one could single-fare the subways, Metro North, LIRR, PATH and perhaps some of NJT, as well as all the buses, just imagine how commuting patterns would change.
I'd argue it would be an improvement. Perhaps things like the London zones A, B, C and D would need to be added for really outlying places, but I do like New York's one fare one ride simplicity. Plus it gives all the riders in the system pleasure that the tourist who decided to ride from 23rd to 28th St in the rush hour was well and truly ripped off!
Gee, after riding the Underground, I made it my favorite subway I've ever been on. I went to London around this time last year, and I didn't think the stations were hot at all. In fact, the wind caused by the trains pushing the air in the tunnels made the tube lines very cool. The trains are fast, unlike the NYC slothway, plus the stations inside the circle line aren't as close together as NYC stations, so I don't express service is really nessasry. And I LIKED how deep the tube lines were, they were like mazes. I guess your wife isn't a railfan :-).
(isn't that what we're planning on Second Avenue?)
They are planning on deep-boring portions of tunnel. Last time I saw any of the plans, the tunnel would go up near the street wherever there are stations, so the stations would be shallow. At least, that was true for the Upper East Side segment.
SEPTA is finishing up a 30 million $ CTC project this weekend. Phaze I was the closing of "A" tower, a non-descript building loacted near the Airport Line that controled a hodge podge o SEPTA trackage including the Airport line, the R6 Cynwyd Line and the Chesnut Hill West interlocking. Phaze II is the closing of the "WIND" desk in WAYNE tower that controled most of the former Reading RR trackage above Jenkintown. The changeover has come with more than its fair share of bugs and maintainers have had to be stationed at interlockings to step in with onsite manual control. Chesnut Hill West has crashed more than a few times and the microwave link to the Cynwyd Line won't work due to Belmont Bluff getting in the way. I think that the new dispatchers are located at the old A tower location. I'll get on my scanner over the next week or so to try to get some sence on how much the system has been f'ed up.
Here's a List of My Favorite Lines:
IND:
1)A
2)C
3)E
4)G
5)F
BMT:
1)L
2)W
IRT:
1)4
2)5
3)6
IND- B,C,E,F
BMT- R,QX
IRT- 1,4,5,6
B is not in the IND.
the current B is, Pre 7/21 it was both BMT(south of grand)/IND(north of grand)
but i was refering to the Pre 7/21 B, so i should have put it under both
The R??????????? Hey, you are entitled to your opinion and I will respect it, but what the hell does the R have to offer that would make it a favorite of anyone or anything. It doesn't come often enough, when it does it is a slow train that stops every thirty seconds or so and never sees the light of day. I'd like to know what you like so much about it----if I may.
I like the (R) because it has the R-46's on there, but the Line overall is a (R)arely Line and very boring.
OK, I'll buy that. Except for the R-46's, which I know little about, the whole line is one big crud pile.
My favorite line on the BMT is the "Q" express since it is one of the few surface lines that has an express. I also like it since the embankment portion of the "Q" in Brooklyn gives you the feel of a regular railroad.
#3 West End Jeff
here's mine
IND
(1)F
(2)A
(3)D pre 7/21
BMT
1)Q
2)N
3)L
4)J
IRT
1) 7
2) 5
3) 4
As a T/O for the A division, I have to say that my favorite line is the 4. My only problem with the 4, is that it takes too long to get in the terminal at Woodlawn during the PM rush. Other than that, it's a good line. The 6 is the absolute worst. I knew this for years, and it was confirmed when I started driving it. One time, I was on my train, ready to leave Pelham and they decided to cross a train in front of me. When the tower was ready to give me the green light, I was already 5 minutes late. At 125, they gave me a skip, which means that passengers at bypass stations waited even longer for a train. This probably happens an average of 5 times a day on the PM shift. I bet it's common on the AM shift as well.
The 2 line is also an atrocity.
I love the 7 line as a railfan, but as a T/O, I have a tough time with the brakes on the redbirds on the 7. The 7 is a fast-paced line. At TSQ, the dispatcher will give the C/R the starting lights, while another train is crossing over, making it impossible to leave the terminal. This can cause as much as a 1-2 minute delay leaving the TSQ. It does not sound like alot of time, but it is on the 7 line. On one occassion, my C/R gave me indication after getting the starting lights, while another train was crossing over. I knew that a TSS was at his position, and gave him one long buzz to open up, but he would not open. Finally I got the signal to leave TSQ. Now I know better than to buzz. I just let him/her deal with all those angry passengers who just missed the train, and are begging, pleading, or in some cases, cursing the C/R re-open.
Here's my favorite lines:
IRT: pre Septemer 11, 2001 #1/9 lines
#7 line
#4 line
IND: A line
F line
E line
BMT: N line
Both Q lines
J line
W line
That's all.
Mr Peralta: The N is your favorite BMT Line. Why how wonderful. You must be a real class act. Take that Brighton fans. Are you also a baseball fan? I notice the #7 and the #4 are your favorite IRT Lines. I like the #7 and hate the #4===for two reasons. One, it is the line that goes to Yankee Stadium and everyone by now knows that I have had a lifetime of bile against that team. The second reason is that the TA stole that number from my Sea Beach while I was living in California and gave it to an IRT train. I will say this for that line, though. It really picks up speed when it goes express into Manahttan.
IND - A, E, G
BMT - W, N, J
IRT - 7, 6, 1
Best 10
1) M
2) N
3) J/Z
4) Q-diamond
5) W
6) 1
7) 4
8) 5
9) Q-circle
10) Franklin S
Worst 10
1) C
2) 6-circle
3) R
4) 6-diamond
5) B
6) 2
7) 42nd St S
8) L
9) D
10) 3
The (C) & (L) Lines are not bad at all, especially the C Line, everyone is entitled to their opinion, so I respect that.
The (C) & (L) Lines are not bad at all, especially the C Line, everyone is entitled to their opinion, so I respect that.
I can see why someone would like those lines. The problem with the C is it is IND, Local, underground all the way. The L has some curse-worthy curves in the Subway section, but I actually positively LIKE the Elevated Section.
Have you any idea which free web host is best? I'm thinking of putting my ideas of how to sort out the Canarsie Line online.
From a passenger perspective I think the L is terrible. From a railfan's perspective it's a great line. The mosaics are some of the nicest in the system, and the elevated section is also a great line. Where else do you ave such a mix in a short amount of time? Canarise-bound you are underground until Halsey, above ground at Wilson (and right next to the LIRR Bay Ridge Line), underground again for Bushwick, then on an el at Broadway Junction, Finally surface running near the end.
From a passenger perspective I think the L is terrible.
Of course I have a plan to turn the Canarsie Line into a great line from the passenger perspective too, but it would cost a hell of a lot...
14th St Line (L)(Y) - extend the Western end to 11th Av, then along 11th Av to Javits Center. Graham Av would close, so that the line could travel deeper into a station at Memoria Square. The Line would then branch in two. One branch would run under Metropolitan Av, Jamaica Av, Sutphin Bvd, and 150th St to JFK. The other branch would run under Maspeth Av, Maurice Av, Calamus Av, Kneeland Av, 53rd Av, Christie Av, Alstyne Av, 52nd Av, Flushing Meadows Park, College Pt Bvd to Flushing Roosevelt Av.
34th St Line (X) - from Javits Center under 34th St, then under the East River to a Vernon / Jackson station under the LIE, then curving under McGuinness Bvd, Humboldt St, to an Upper Level of Memoria Square station, then along the Canarsie Line to Montrose Av, then continuing under Bushwick Av, then cutting cross-block to a station under Myrtle / Broadway, then under Reid Av and Utica Av to Kings Plaza.
(V) Train to Canarsie - from the center tracks at 2nd Av under Houston St, through some East River tubes then under S 4th St, then curving cross-block onto Johnson Av, to a lower level at Montrose Av, then ramping up to take over the Canarsie Line from Morgan Av onwards.
Now that would be a great four lines for passengers!
From a passenger perspective I think the L is terrible.
Of course I have a plan to turn the Canarsie Line into a great line from the passenger perspective too, but it would cost a hell of a lot...
14th St Line (L)(Y) - extend the Western end to 11th Av, then along 11th Av to Javits Center. Graham Av would close, so that the line could travel deeper into a station at Memoria Square. The Line would then branch in two. One branch would run under Metropolitan Av, Jamaica Av, Sutphin Bvd, and 150th St to JFK. The other branch would run under Maspeth Av, Maurice Av, Calamus Av, Kneeland Av, 53rd Av, Christie Av, Alstyne Av, 52nd Av, Flushing Meadows Park, College Pt Bvd to Flushing Roosevelt Av.
34th St Line (X) - from Javits Center under 34th St, then under the East River to a Vernon / Jackson station under the LIE, then curving under McGuinness Bvd, Humboldt St, to an Upper Level of Memoria Square station, then along the Canarsie Line to Montrose Av, then continuing under Bushwick Av, then cutting cross-block to a station under Myrtle / Broadway, then under Reid Av and Utica Av to Kings Plaza.
(V) Train to Canarsie - from the center tracks at 2nd Av under Houston St, through some East River tubes then under S 4th St, then curving cross-block onto Johnson Av, to a lower level at Montrose Av, then ramping up to take over the Canarsie Line from Morgan Av onwards.
Now that would be a great four lines for passengers!
I fail to see how doing these things would make the Canarsie Line FASTER (the new title of this thread). It might add to the line's UTILITY, but wouldn't make it faster -- at least not on the existing sections. It should also be remembered that the existing Canarsie Line is two tracks throughout its length (not counting storage areas such as near Myrtle Avenue). Splitting the service into four pieces would limit the number of trains on any one branch (to an eight-minute headway at best on each branch if all branches were served equally), possibly to a point where it's not worth doing.
David
It should also be remembered that the existing Canarsie Line is two tracks throughout its length
is exactly the point - there are two ways to make a curvy line quicker:
(1) add express tracks
(2) straighten the line.
I have gone for option (2) here.
Splitting the service into four pieces would limit the number of trains on any one branch (to an eight-minute headway at best on each branch if all branches were served equally), possibly to a point where it's not worth doing.
You misunderstand me.
The (V) on 6th Av has space for a maximum 15tph. I am proposing increasing it to 10 tph (which is about the Maximum which ever goes to Canarsie), then extended under the East River, S 4th St and Johnson Av (stops at Marcy Av, Union Av, Bushwick Av). This route has fewer curves, fewer stops and actually goes to Midtown where most people's jobs are - it would be a quicker route from Canarsie. That is what I meant by faster.
The other part of the plan would be how to deal with what's left after taking the Canarsie Line off the 14th St Line.
The 14th St Line would be left (maximum capacity 30 tph, maximum used 15 tph) with no real point. Therefore I would extend it along two branches. One via Jamaica to JFK (call it the (L)) and one via Maspeth to Flushing (call it the (Y)). This would relieve the Queens Bvd and Flushing Lines as well as providing service to areas not currently with subway service. Both (L) and (Y) would have a maximum frequency of 8 tph, a 7½ minute headway on the outer branches, with a 3¼ minute headway on the shared section from Memoria Square to Javits Center.
The final part is making use of the Bushwick Av alignment and the space left for an Utica Av subway for a 2 track 34th St - McGuiness Bvd - Humboldt St - Bushwick Av - Reid Av - Utica Av - Kings Plaza Line. Capacity would once more be 30 tph, but I only suggest 12 tph as an initial maximum frequency. This is a 5 minute headway. This is also expansion.
To be fair, you are right that the second two parts are more about expansion than speed, but the (V) train to Canarsie would be a real speed improvement.
As long as you can add two more tracks to the main trunk, and that would involve dropping another tunnel into the East River.
But you did say it would be expensive.
As long as you can add two more tracks to the main trunk
No, I must've been REALLY unclear in my phrasing - it would stay 2 track, but be divided into three extended segments.
and that would involve dropping another tunnel into the East River.
Actually 2 other 2 track East River Tunnels - one between 34th St and LIC, the other between Houston St and South 4th St (I came very close to making this second one 4 track to accomodate a 2nd Av express turnoff into Brooklyn)
But you did say it would be expensive.
I sure did. But I also said it would be a big improvement to transit in three of the five boroughs.
Why don't you just make it Skip-Stop in BOTH Directions. When the Willy B closed down for repairs and no train traffic for a few months. I remember J/Z trains running Skip-Stop in BOTH directions between Crescent St And Parsons/Archer. YOU NEVER HAD TO WAIT for a train .
They were going to do that a few years ago on the Canarsie line. I believe it was to be L/Y skip stop service. I don't know what ever happened to that proposal. I think it would work very well on the li line. It seems to work well on the J/Z, at least I don't here to many complaints here. The 1/9 is another story. I here lots of views here either way. The L seems like a pretty straight forwary line for skip stop service.
That depends on how the passenger load is distributed. Do most passengers ride through to Broadway Junction and Canarsie, or do a lot of people use the intermediate stops? It doesn't help if the trains move a bit faster and save a few minutes (really, the time savings are very modest) if most of the passengers have to wait twice as long for a train that will stop for them. And if there's any substantial short-distance travel on the line, getting from an "A" stop to a "B" stop is a real pain, often requiring backtracking.
Skip stop would probably be between Bway Jct and Lorimer. This is where most of the ridership is at.
The problem is the slow timers in some places, you would bypass and then have to almost stop the train anyway for the timers to clear. Not a real gain in time.
First, it's not Memoria Square, it's Memorial Square. How could you not figure that out?
Secondly, not only would nobody figure out what you're talking about when you name a station Memorial Square, Graham Avenue is the more prominent location (crossroads aside) and makes the most sense for a stop.
First, it's not Memoria Square, it's Memorial Square. How could you not figure that out?
Maybe you should ask the German company who printed my map that!
Use Mapquest.
Use Mapquest.
The problem with that, and multimap, and yahoo maps is that it only displays a 3" square section at a time. Is there any way of getting it to display full screen?
You are however right that the paper map I'm using isn't very good. I just spotted another two typos on it - "Manhatten" and "Lorime Street". It's probably covered with them.
Where the hell is Memoria Square?
I notice on this post the Brighton lines are taking it on the chin. Are you listening BMT Doug, Brighton Express Bob and Q Brightliner?
I notice on this post the Brighton lines are taking it on the chin.
How so? I've rated all three Brighton Line trains above every single IND service there is! (By the D I mean the current D - not the Brighton Line - sorry, all you IND fans out there, but I think the BMT's better!) The reasons I have put it so low on the list is the fact that I like the Eastern Division Els - pity they b*ggered the Canarsie Line up with that twisty subway, despite its nice deco!
As a passenger:
IRT:
1. 3
2. 4
3. 7
IND:
1. A
2. D pre 7/22/01
3. F
BMT:
1. L
2. (Q)/ post 7/22/01
3. N
As a conductor in the IRT: my three favorites:
1. 3 pre 9/11/01 and hopefully post 9/8/02
2. 4
3. 5
As a A Div. C/R My favorite lines are:
1. 5
2. 3
3. 6
Lines I dislike
1. 7 Hate it!!!
2. 2
3. 4
Uh oh, John Rocker rides again---------oooooops, just kidding. What is it about the #7 you don't like. It has real variety and the scenery is pretty good.
What is it about the #7 you don't like. It has real variety and the scenery is pretty good.
My personal feelings about the 7 is that I really don't particularily care for the line either. Everytime I've been on it it's always been packed. I just hate not being able to move on a train. I know every line gets like that once in a while, and especially at rush hours, but the 7 seems to be constantly packed. Other than that, it's a cool line, and runs through cool neighborhoods. That's one line that would have done better if it had been converted to IND/BMT widths (If not for having to totally rebuild the Steinway Tubes).
What I don't like about the No.7 Line as a C/R.
1. Its crowded most of the time even on a Sunday Morning.
2. There is too much door holding on the line and if they get hit by the door the No.7 riders are the first call up on a C/R on their cell phones to tell the people downtown a C/R hit them with the doors. The No.1 line comes a close second with complaints on C/R's from the Upper westside riders.
3. Don't get along with No.7 Line supervison.
4. 5 trippers
I don't know what the 7 Line is like, I only use the 7 to see Baseball games, and that's rarely.
The No.1 line comes a close second with complaints on C/R's from the Upper westside riders.
Complaints about what? My grievances are with everyone who has anything to do with the line aside from C/R's and T/O's. For the most part, the crews do a good job of keeping up with a tough line and a tough crowd.
Of course, lots of people have no idea what's under the crew's control. This evening, I was on the SB platform at Grand Central while a 6 was being held for a few minutes. Someone stepped out and complained to the C/R; I pointed up to the holding lights (directly above his head) and told him that as long as those lights were on, the C/R wasn't allowed to close the doors, and that the C/R probably had no better idea of why he was being held than anyone else did. (I even jokingly suggested that he unscrew the bulbs so the train could leave.)
1. My favorite line would have to be the N, I guess because I really like the Broadway line in Manhattan (I love that they are restoring the old mosaics - some of the nicest in the system), and the Sea Beach is a nice run, and beleive it or not, I really like the Asoria El also (even after all the controvery last week).
2. Second would be the M, because first of all it's sentimental to me because I grew up along it, and really also because it's a great line. It starts out it's run along the NYCRR and it's cool bridge over the LIRR Montauk line, Fresh Pond Yard (subway and freight), then it's own elevated ROW. The Nassau line is pretty neat, and so is the West end.
3. Third would have to be the L. The Canarsie line has some of the nocest mosaics in the system also, and a great mix of subway, elevated, and private ROW, and surface running.
4. Finally, the 6. Just because I love the lower Lexinton Line, and the Pelham is also a nice el.
I don't really dislike any particular route. However if i was to choose, I would have to say the R, just because it's kind of boring. Ironic, because the Broadway line is my favorite line. But if I was to ride Broadway I would choose the N/W/Q, and as for Queens Blvd, the R is the last line I would choose also.
2. Second would be the M, because first of all it's sentimental to me because I grew up along it, and really also because it's a great line. It starts out it's run along the NYCRR and it's cool bridge over the LIRR Montauk line, Fresh Pond Yard (subway and freight), then it's own elevated ROW. The Nassau line is pretty neat, and so is the West end.
Good taste!!! I would rank the M and N the other way round, but they definitely are the best two lines in the system! I disagree with you about the L Line - despite it looking nice in the subway section, it is still slow.
The 6 would be a cool line if you could get out at City Hall!
I disagree with you about the L Line - despite it looking nice in the subway section, it is still slow.
From a passenger perspective, the L is kind of slow, but from a railfan point a vieww, it's a pretty neat line. If they had built it with a third track for express service, it would be a class act. But it is what it is. The trains do however run at a relatively good frequency. I agree with you though, if you are in a hurry, the L is not for you.......
I like the E Line dispite problems with overcrowding and some R-32 equipment problems. When running right this line is pretty fast! Gets you where you want to go in about 47 minutes from end to end.
From a passenger perspective, the L is kind of slow, but from a railfan point a vieww, it's a pretty neat line. If they had built it with a third track for express service, it would be a class act.
I agree with you as far as to say it looks very nice, but I thought the point of rapid transit was to transport lots of people quickly. A third track wouldn't really save all that much time on the Canarsie Line because it would be slowed down by all the curves anyway.
I agree with you though, if you are in a hurry, the L is not for you.......
How many people are NOT in a hurry?!?
I wonder why the L was planned with all those curves around Grand St. I know the originasl plans for the Canarsie line was to send it up to an elevated route east of Montrose. It was supposed to meet with the M right at the Wyckoff Station. That is why the M line was built with a third track at Wyckoff, It was supposed to be a more important station than it is today. I guess it was supposed to be sort of like a "Myrtle-Broadway type intersection. Although that still doiesn't explain all the curves around Grand.
My favorites:
IND
A
BMT
diamond Q
N
IRT
7
3
4/5
Well Steve I can give you a B=Plus or A- on your choices. How's that?
Spoken like a teacher.:-) Well, actually it's a tossup between the diamond Q and the N. The former because of its express run along the Brighton and the N because it's the very first subway train I ever rode on.
Of course, you know how I feel about the A.:-)
I know this has been talked about before, but I just wanted to get a firm answer from people who know. Direct Fixaction (DF) seemed to be very popular in the 70's and 80's, but now I don't know. I am defining DF to be the anchoring of rail to the roadbed without the use of independant cross ties. This means that the typical subway "ties in concrete" system is not DF.
NYC Transit tried direct fixation (Type VIII) in the 1960s and 1970s (and even on the 63rd Street and Archer Avenue Lines in the 1980s). The concrete broke up and the gauge could not be held. If there's any left it probably won't be there for long. NYCT couldn't wait to get rid of it.
David
It's been working fine since 1954 here.
-Robert King
I heard on the news that Amtrak is still planning a shutdown of all it's lines come this week or next. And they said it will affect commuter lines that use Amtrak, like LIRR and NJT, since Amtrak tower operators control those sections.
If this happens, the effects on transit will be severe. That along with the Queens Bus strike is going to cause near meltdown conditions on NYC Transit system as LIRR riders will be shoved off trains most likely at Jamaica, and Flatbush will be mobbed.
It seems we have idiots in government (the mayor, US government) for letting these things happen. It is just plan dispicable that our elected officials can just stand by while millions of people have no way to work (or get around for that matter). And for NYC after Sept.11, this is an especially cruel blow.
With an economy already going down fast, this completely lacks any reason at all. Also the government has no problem bailing out airlines, yet could care less if Amtrak bites the dust.
By a week from now LIRR riders may have no direct way into Manhattan. This is just so plain freakin stupid!
Stay away from the 7 train too john. LIRR riders can take the train too woodside and transfer to the 7 to Manhanttan. Sunnyside, interlocks, towers, communications, power all Amtrak stuff. NJT will have major problems too. Looks like I gotta take Greyhound to Philly from now on.
Yup going to the city will sure be a pain if it happens. But even LI Bus would get LIRR commuters who are using it for the subway connection, so there really will be no escape. Only LI Bus routes staying within Nassau county would not be affected. And extra buses may be provided in the case crowding is severe on Nassau-Queens routes.
Wasn't there an LIRR strike quite a few years ago? What happened then?
One time when there was a strike for Amtrak threatened, they had a plan for the "P" train that was to run on the Jamaica line to Essex, through the Chrystie St Connection to the 6th Ave line. Passengers were to be able to transfer at Jamaica or at the then still in use Richmond Hill Station to the Jamaica line.
at the then still in use Richmond Hill Station to the Jamaica line
On which street was Richmond Hill Station?
The station is still there, although abandoned (tracks still in service for frieght and through revenue moves, just no local service....lower Montauk Branch). It's on an elevated prtion of the route near where the J train (at 121st St station), Jamaica and Myrtle Avenues meet.
Richmond Hill Station was at Lefferts Blvd/Jamaica Ave/Myrtle Ave.
The station is still there. Probably the only station on the Montauk that is actually visable.
Probably the only station on the Montauk that is actually visable.
Richmond Hill is probably the only station that even looked like a station on that line. (aside from maybe Fresh Pond, sort of). The rest were basically just a stop at a grade crossing, with or without a sign.
They all got a sign for the last month of existence: Notice of Cessation of Service: Attention [station-name] customers....
That's about the only time anyone could tell where the stations were!
That is the truth. Actually, Glendale only got a station sign within it's last year (Aside form the cessation of service sign you mentioned). I was meeting someone at the Glendale station sometime near the end of service and riding with him towards Jamaica to change trains there one evening. People were looking at me lkike I was crazy when I was just standing at the grade crossing waiting for the train (they couldn't understand why I was just standing there, as very few people even knew it was a station). Even the conductor was surprised when I got on.
At Fresh Pond it was always interesting whenever I used the station. One time I was waiting there with a friend, and a group of kids were just hanging out on the tracks walking around, giving us dirty looks for standing at the "station". Then the train arrived. The look on their faces was priceless when the train stopped for us and we got on, as they also had know idea that was a "station".
Fresh Pond in the winter was also always an experience. Anyone who was familiar with the station will know what I mean. Well, in the winter it gets dark earlier than the scheduled trains would use the Fresh Pond station. I believe the scheule was 5:06 and another train at around 5:30. There was no "station" lighting, and Fresh Pond is in a cut under/near Metropolitan Ave. You would wait at the station in total darkness. The only lights were a few stray lights from the street above. Then all of a sudden this bright light from one of the GP38's or MP15's would appear in the distance, under the tunnel next to the station. It would almost blind you because you were used to the darkness, and the horn would sound. It was the closest thing to hell you could probably experience......boy I really miss local service on the lower Montauk line......
Do you all really think that this would happen? States have budgets also. The first thing SEPTA,NJT,LIRR,ECT... would do is go to the judge and end whatever shut down is starting. To have hundreds of thousands of people stuck wouldnt look good for them also. If no customers ride there service they lose money along with AMTRAK
Should be an interesting sideshow - bankruptcy courts have to take time to make decisions, especially on the release of property at claim. I'm sure if Amtrak DOES die next week, there will be pandemonium ranging from several DAYS to several MONTHS ... states just can't waltz in and seize property in the custody of federal courts. And the bondholders can't either.
They'll have to write up paperwork, then petition the court. Chances are there will need to be hearings and then everybody waits for the decision of the judge (hell, APPOINTING a judge takes time too) ... bottom line, if Amtrak shuts down, a lot of people are going to be stranded for some period of time before things get sorted out. Only question is HOW long ...
"... states just can't waltz in and seize property in the custody of federal courts. And the bondholders can't either. "
Sure we can. We have a National Guard Unit. It is under the command of the Govenor. Send troops down onto the property and seize it. The courts can sort things out later.
Elias
Heh. I tell ya, this whole thing just gets curiouser and curiouser.
Sure we can. We have a National Guard Unit. It is under the command of the Govenor. Send troops down onto the property and seize it. The courts can sort things out later.
Elias Thienpont for mayor!!!
I think for the first few days of an AMTRAK shutdown there are going to be MAJOR problems where AMTRAK owns trackage that the local commuter railroads use. Maybe that's why MTA purchased Grand Central. Metro North should be able to get their trains in and out of NYC better than Long Island. PATH is going to be overcrowded getting people in and out of New Jersey. LIRR will be terminating most of their service at Jamaica with some service going to Flatbush and LIC/Hunter's Point. And the Subways will be packed worse than they are now.
Any word if TA will use the P train?
I'm talking about NYC. I'm sure there will be similiar situations like this in Boston, Philadephia, Baltimore, Washington DC and other cities where AMTRAK and commuter railroads co-exist.
Dave? I hope you set up a place where the various service advisiories can been found and posted. For us people who work in the various transit systems it would be useful.
Any word if TA will use the P train?
The obvious soulution would be to use the V as the Jamaica skip-stop, with half the trains changing signs to J at Essex / DeLancey Sts.
The V hopefully will be extended to 179 St.
"Maybe that's why MTA purchased Grand Central."
MN purchased it because AMTK was selling it and wanted out.
If they would not have bought it it would have been closed.
NYP on the other hand was not for sale, and FED courts determined that FED authority (AMTK) had priority over the property when ConRail was created. But now, if AMTK is not a FED property, then it has no right to the FED protection that gave them the porperty over the objections of NYS in the first place. If there is a Default on the Property, and AMTK ABANDONS its responsibility to run it, then yes, it must be seized by NYS on behalf of LIRR PA and NJT.
Courts can then figure things out later.
Elias (Not running for Mayor)
MTA, through Metro-North or otherwise, does not own Grand Central Terminal. From page 76 of the 2000 MTA Annual Report:
"On April 8, 1994, MTA amended its lease for the Harlem/Hudson line properties, including Grand Central Terminal. This amendment initially extends the lease term, previously expiring in 2031, an additional 110 years and, pursuant to several other provisions, an additional 133 years. In addition, the amendment grants MTA an option to purchase the leased property after the 25th anniversary of the amended lease. The amended lease comprises both operating (for the least of land) and capital (for the lease of buildings and track structure) elements."
David
So does the lease end in 2164 or 2274?
The lease was supposed to end in 2031. According to what I posted, it was extended ANOTHER 110 years, which would be to 2141. The option of 133 years on top of that would bring us, or rather our descendants (except me...I'm not going!), to 2274.
David
Thank You.
I was taking it on faith of the previous poster that it was a "purchase"
Who are they leasing it from? PennCentral?
Elias
That's right. I forget what the company's called now, but it's Penn Central under a different name.
David
American something Underwrighters. probely Insurance but not sure.
American Premier Underwriters
Also doesn't the Metro North New Haven line use Amtrak trackage?
I tell ya I won't even think about going into the City on a weekday if Penn gets closed. NYC's economy is gonna suffer from this. It's as if Congress and the President really don't give a damn about our city, even after Sept.11th. Truly sad.
Even after September 11, they didn't give a damn. Did we ever get any of that money we were promised?
"One nation, under God, indivisible, except for them damned BLUE states" ...
Even after September 11, they didn't give a damn. Did we ever get any of that money we were promised?
"One nation, under God, indivisible, except for them damned BLUE states" ...
Okay - hypothetical situaion time...
AMTRAK goes bankrupt. New York, New Jersey, Conneticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania send in the National Guard to seize the property. Federal Government issues an ultimatum. Those six states secede. What does Bush do next?
Those six states secede. What does Bush do next?
He calls his daddy?
Prolly ask Unca Dick what to do next. But militias confiscating the railroad? Not going to happen. And the party in power certainly wouldn't be all that opposed to retaliating against those pesky "blue states" ...
Prolly ask Unca Dick what to do next.
I know it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay OT, but did you ever see the bumper sticker which read "Bush + Dick = Screwed"
Oh boy..........lol.
Well, first on his list of priorities is designing a 44 state flag, of course!
Nah, that'll require a whole new layer of administration to watch the needle and thread agencies ...
Well, first on his list of priorities is designing a 44 state flag, of course!
Nah, he'll admit American Samoa, Federated Micronesia, Guam, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands and Western Samoa as states! Anything but redesign the flag!
ROTFL
MNRR owns the New Haven Line which is why Amtrak goes so slow there. MNRR doesn't want to make the upgrades. There was a whole big thing about it when the Acela started service.
MNRR will not be affected by an Amtrak shutdown.
Once again, those lucky MNRR riders get the best of MTA commuter rail service.
If only that damn 63RD STREET LIRR connection would've opened by now, we wouldn't be talking mass chaos on LIRR.
Once again, those lucky MNRR riders get the best of MTA commuter rail service.
As usually, the LIRR seems to be the "step child" of the MTA.
What do you meaned opened by now? It isn't like it is under construction and near completion. No one can say hurry up and finish this thing early so we can press it into service if Amtrak goes down.
In other words....
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN *STARTED* 25 YEARS AGO!
That's the smartest comment I've heard about this whole situation from anyone. Who would object? The national guard's already been there, now they have an even more important reason to be.
From ***RUMORS*** I heard from some crews up here, if Amtrak does shut down, they're planning on shutting down EVERYTHING, including power and signalling. That means NJT, LIRR and CONNDOT will be shut down as well along Amtrak trackage. Gunn's serious here. If any property is Amtrak's, it WILL be shut down according to what Amtrak crews here have been hearing from on high. Basically, "don't leave any personals behind, you won't see it again" ...
If Amtrak closes, the usual study groups and committees will be formed and any actions taken for "guest railways" will have to wait, pending the outcome of the studies ... that's what I've heard for what it's worth - again ***RUMORS*** ...
In a way, I'm reminded of Atlas Shrugged, and I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
An IDIOTIC piece of pseudointellectual TRASH.
What's "Atlas Shrugged"?
- Lyle Goldman
"What's 'Atlas Shrugged'?"
Novel by Ayn Rand in which a hyper-New Deal federal government imposes so many regulations and taxes on business that a group of businessmen (and women) decide to shut down their businesses, leave their homes, go off to a hidden town they've built, and run their own society based on almost pure libertarianism. It's called "Atlas Shrugged" because Rand believed the business owners were the Atlases holding up the economy and society, and the book is Rand's "spin" or take on what would happen if these businessmen gave up and stopped holding up the system.
It clearly states Rand's philosophy, but literarily it's somewhat ham-handed, with two-dimensional characters, purely-good good guys (mainly the business owners), purely-bad bad guys (mainly government officials), reductio ad absurdum positions for the government and the businessmen alike, and chapter-long, drawn-out, monologue speeches to explain Rand's philosophy.
The book comes up in a rail context because the main character is a woman who controls and directly runs one of the major railroads and because some of the scenes or chapters revolve around her railroad and its collapse under the regulations.
A judge will issue in minutes a order that Commuter railroads get power to use and operate (fully) the property they are entiltled to use to provide service.
You really don't understand how the legal system works, do ya? If Amtrak can't pay for the electrons, they don't get any. Transfer of ownership requires paperwork, approvals and TIME. Lemme put it this way. You can't pay your electric bill. Con Ed shuts you down. Your neighbor decides to pay your electric bill. Do you think the lights will come RIGHT back on?
Nothing is set in stone.
Judges can sign anything really. It is only later that people will question the order and to file a claim that a judge did something wrong takes days. Remember that a judges order is automatically inforcable. So if you turn that power switch you will be in jail/cop will be next to you in not a good way! Also if the police refuse to obey a judge order thay can be put in jail or tried for various offences. Though what I am saying might not happen, but many things don't add up in the judicial system.
Remember that a judges order is automatically inforcable. So if you turn that power switch you will be in jail/cop will be next to you in not a good way!
If things really worked that way, Bill Gates and the entire Microsoft directorate would be doing life without parole :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LIRR will be able to operate, they just won't be able to use Penn Station.
The rules are as follows:
Any commuter rail service that is contracted to be operated by Amtrak will not operate. Union regulations prohibit these agencies from hiring the unemployed Amtrak engineers (VRE can not hire an Amtrak engineer).
In the Northeast, this means that
The VRE will not be in service since there will be no one to operate the trains. They are also unable to use Union Station
MARC Penn Line will not be in service. The Camden and Brunswick Lines will be able to operate but won't be abl to use Union Station.
SEPTA will be in service but will not be able to use Amtrak stations (I think)
NJT will be in service but will not be able to use Penn Station
LIRR will be in service but will not be able to use Penn Station
Metro-North New Haven Line will be in service and should not experience any major disruptions since the whole line is owned by MNRR
MBTA Commuter Rail Services will not be in service because they are operated by Amtrak. They also can't use South Station.
In addition:
All California Commuter Train Services will not operate
METRA in Chicago will not be able to operate into Union Station or on any Amtrak owned tracks
There may be some mistakes in this post, do not take my word for all this!
Wrong about California commuter services. The Altamont Commuter Express is NOT operated by Amtrak. It is operated by Herzog Rail Services, who also operates Tri-Rail in Florida. The ACE also runs entirely on UP track, to they might not have any problems.
Who owns the tracks?
Amtrak Owns the tracks fron NY Penn to Washington along with 30th St In Philly and NY Penn. I dont know about the East River Tunnels and Sunnyside or SOuth of Philly.
The East River Tunnels, and all of Sunnyside is AMTK property.
AMTK operates HAROLD interlocking, so even getting into Hunters Point or Long Island City via the Montauk are questionalbe.
Elias
so even getting into Hunters Point or Long Island City via the Montauk are questionalbe.
That may be one of the reasons they were going to have people get off at the LIRR Richmond Hill Station, and have them change to the "P" at the "J" 121 Street station under on contingency plan a few years back when Amtrak was to go on strike. Of course that was before the Richmond Hill station was officially abandoned a few years ago, I don't know if they would be able to do that in a contingency plan now. They never got to do that at Richmond Hill because the Amtrak strike was cancelled at the last minute.
According to this morning's Post- MTA says they havce the skills to run trains. The same article quoted an "unnamed NJT spokesman" that they "say disaster is voming down the tracks."
NJT finally told me they have no plans yet.
Update from NJT: Just got an e-mail confirming NE Corrdiort, N Jersey Coast, Raritan and Midtown Direct would be impacted. They are developing a plan and will publicize the plan if a shutdown become likely. They told me they are using almost all avilable rail and bua fleets.
Sorry bout that, I said there might be errors.
From what i read, all CA service was to be disrupted.
In Saturday's Inquirer a SEPTA spokesperson reported that SEPTA was in contact with Amtrak and nobody knew anything as of Friday.
How come a commuter can't hire a unimployed engineer?
Union rules. The unemployed engineer's union wants to "protect" him, so they negotiate a contract that keeps him from obtaining other employment, even when his employer shuts down.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the NY Area, we don't need the engineers, just the signal operators and the ability to use the station.
And the Car Knockers, and the Hostlers, and the Electricians...
If you don't know what services NYP provides to LIRR, you'd better check it out.
I don't think that LIRR personel can step into that big a hole that quickly.
Elias
(And the Car Knockers, and the Hostlers, and the Electricians...If you don't know what services NYP provides to LIRR, you'd better check it out. I don't think that LIRR personel can step into that big a hole that quickly.)
They can always damn the unions and send in the NYC Transit Workers. They can do just about anything.
Union rules. The unemployed engineer's union wants to "protect" him, so they negotiate a contract that keeps him from obtaining other employment, even when his employer shuts down.
Wouldn't any engineer with a brain leave his union then?
Wouldn't any engineer with a brain leave his union then?
Except that it's a Catch-22 situation... you have to be in the union to have a job when there is one, so the union can siphon off a percentage of your pay while they do nothing. It's the classic modern union attitude: "screw 'em now, screw 'em later, screw 'em all the time". Unions may well have had their place at one time but I don't think they have accomplished much of anything positive in the last 75 years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Except that it's a Catch-22 situation... you have to be in the union to have a job when there is one, so the union can siphon off a percentage of your pay while they do nothing. It's the classic modern union attitude: "screw 'em now, screw 'em later, screw 'em all the time". Unions may well have had their place at one time but I don't think they have accomplished much of anything positive in the last 75 years.
Isn't forcing you to be in an union unconstitutional? Sounds like it should be, even if it's not.
Isn't forcing you to be in an union unconstitutional? Sounds like it should be, even if it's not.
Union politics in the U.S. is really pretty messy -- I don't understand it fully. There are good reasons to be in an union, though. Some unions are quite effective, like the BLE (Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers), and the ALPA (Air Line Pilots Association). They do look out for the general well-being of their members and they fight issues like safety violations by the employer, and they represent workers who for one reason or another come under disciplinary procedures. Others are less effective. Others don't even represent their constituients -- for example refer back to the trackworkers thread a while ago on NYCTA, case a point where an union doesn't even represent its constituents adequately. Just like any political institution, they could be good or bad.
Non-union shops like JB Hunt (a trucking firm) and Delta Airlines (hostesses/flight attendents are non-union) have their share of problems, and the employees sometimes do feel the pinch.
A big difference between an American union and a British one is that US unions in general will represent you even if you were in the wrong. For example on EWS a while ago there was a case of a driver who SPADded under the influence. He was disciplined and dismissed; his union (I think it was the ASLEF) represented him only by sending someone to show up. A similar case on an American railroad would probably have the union come up with a boo-hoo story and the union demanding that he ought to be retrained, be given alcoholism treatment at employers expense and be reinstated. There was a case on MARC a while ago where a driver SPADded (not under influence, I don't think, but through clear negligence), and the unions demanded that he be reinstated. He was reinstated and given full back pay. On his first day back at work, he climbed aboard a switcher and retired. So sometimes it's a matter of principle more than anything else -- the insistence that the employer should look after their employees.
AEM7
In the United States, it varies by state. New York is a union state, where you may be required to join a union in order to work.
North Dakota is a "Right to Work" state. You can never be required to join a union, but if there is a union representing some of the employees, then all employees in that trade must be treated equally.
Elias
To add, SIGNALLING on all Amtrak trackage will be turned OFF. POWER on the NEC will be shut down, but a "trickle charge" at voltage will remain on catenary to prevent theft of the copper. Not enough current to operate a train however. Anything using overhead power on the NEC won't move and signals WILL be dark. That's what I've heard.
If that's true, this means: 1- SEPTA's PRR side is screwed. Reading side trains could turn at Market East, but leaving 30st every line has to cross Amtrak trackage for at least a few feet, and they've got only a handful of diesel engines capable of pulling passenger trains and even if they borrowed more from somewhere, they barely have cars. Maybe VRE can send its unsusable stock due to the inability to hire LEs, but then who will drive 'em up?
2- NJT is okay to an extent. They have quite a diesel fleet. They can run everything to Hoboken, but with the Bergen tunnels being out of commission I'll bet the only time any line'd see decent service is the weekends and overnight. Perhaps there'd be Long Branch-Avenel electric shuttles, and the entire M&E lines would be only electric equipment so that engines could be used elsewhere.
3- Metro North is laughing its ass off at all the poor shlubs who don't own their own trackage, and decides to beef up service on the New Haven Line, just because they can.
Lack of signalling? Break out the flags, hand radios and stacks of forms. We've got some manual train co-ordinating to do!
HOPEFULLY our porcine in deecee are beginning to figure out that what's about to happen here is a worse scenario than an actual "enemy attack" if it's permitted to come to fruition. I'm hearing from some of the guys around here that they're hearing from the union that it's beginning to dawn on the "administration" that there could be some unhappy souls in their own party and thus something might actually happen in time to stave this all off.
But yes, Amtrak, if shut down WOULD have to cut the power and would have to shut down everything unless cash was ante'd up just to keep the OTHER railroads able to run. Since this is FRA track, the only way a diesel would be allowed to run would be with an "absolute block" and passing of batons which would be no better than a complete shutdown for practical purposes.
Hopefully though, Shrub and all are hearing the cluephone ringing and might pick up on time. We'll all know for sure soon enough ...
HOPEFULLY our porcine in deecee
You're confusing the United States with the United Swines. In the United Swines, we care about Hamtrak and we're not about to let it collapse. :(:))
Heh. I'd consider changing affiliations. Less confusion between "good" and "evildoers" ... :)
Hey, I've always wondered, what is it with all your "pig" references? Why do you call yourself a pig?
- Lyle Goldman
Why not? :(:))
LOL
My contingency plan:
Weekdays- use PATH to Newark Penn (Owned by NJT) and take the 62 bus to MetroPark.
Weekends- walk towards Rahway (Actually Colonia) for 62 bus as above. (The 62 does not got To MetroPark on weekends. I'd buy a monthly bus pass if NJT wont honor my rail ticket and sell the rauil ticket back to NJT prior to the new month.
I just wonder- how much service could PATH add- if any. I know they are now using fewer cars per train (7 vs 8 for the former WTC /Newark Line). They could add overnight service but what about mid-day and rush hour?
Actually, they can extend the Hoboken - JSQ trains to Newark.
Don't forget Shore Line East in Connecticut.
I believe Amtrak operates that line, so that would be shut down.
Also, I believe in addition to the NY Penn Station - what about Newark Penn Station.
I believe NJ Transit trains all along NEC would be stopped.
Newark Penn will be closed (I presume) *except* for PATH which runs on a separate ROW and does not use (I presuem) AMTK interlocking services. It is all fenced off from the rwst of the station IIRC.
: ) Elias
How about path? Doesnt that join the NEC for a little while then diverts from it again?
"Doesnt that join the NEC for a little while then diverts from it again?"
Yes and No.
It runs on the same property (sort of) but the do not connect physically, and are not dispached by AMTK.
No PATH will not go down.
Elias
But why do the PATH tracks have cantanary?
Remnants of long ago....
Here's a photo taken from the eastbound PATH platform at Harrison (just east of Newark). The outside tracks are PATH (note third rail) and the inside tracks are Amtrak with NJT as a tenant on the Amtrak tracks.
Actually, it does connect physically just east of the yard by Harrison. Or at least there's a track that crosses it at grade and eventually connects to the tracks next to the NEC, which connect to the NEC. I forget if it's just a crossing or a double-slip switch.
Oh sure they'll have a direct way to Manhattan. My guess is the *first* thing that will happen when amtrak shuts down is NY state will move right in and take control of Penn, along with NJ. amtrak will effectively lose control of Penn and everything leading to it. You'll see maybe a day of chaos, then things will smooth out. The LIRR already jointly runs Penn Station, anyway. They've got at least some ops experience in it, and could (and probbably has arrangements to) take over instantly.
Realize, like all big things, Amtrak won't stop *instantly*. It'll take the better part of a week to stop all service, store trains, and transfer control. I bet the average commuter in/out of NY Penn won't even notice it, save for the lack of Amtrak trains floating around.
NJT was already poised to take over the Clockers, too.
Boston will be screwed, but I suspect briefly. California already owns their own rail fleet, and I'm sure there's a 'pop up' clause in their contracts. Ditto for the MBTA and maybe Marc.
When the dust settles, I predict:
NY/NJ will own Penn Station.
NJ may own their segment of the NEC.
California will take over in state operations and go it on their own.
Mass may do the same with (T) commuter rail.
The SLE will go to MN.
MN will also pinch hit on the Empire Corridor.
Marc will grind to a halt until Maryland finds an operator.
Septa will have minor troubles , but more or less run.
I can't imagine any of the groups listed above isn't already planning for the shutdown, saying as it looks like it *will* happen, especially if Amtrak has yet another accident in the next few days.
MARC's Penn Line will actually not be running while Camden and Brunswick will be! The only problem is that they can't use Union Station.
Just hope that Congress will find a way to have a loan for AMTRAK to keep it running until October. Even the guaranteed loan of $205 million is going to be hard to achieve. Commercial lenders are skeptical of this, so are some other groups of lenders, which I don't know the clear reason of.
No loans? AMTRAK will shut down on 7/1 which would be a bad thing, but what better is it to keep it until October, and what about the $1.2 billion loan? Just to keep AMTRAK running another year isn't going to cut the company's problems, one spokeman said.
Do you all really think that this would happen? States have budgets also. The first thing SEPTA,NJT,LIRR,ECT... would do is go to the judge and end whatever shut down is starting. To have hundreds of thousands of people stuck wouldnt look good for them also. If no customers ride there service they lose money along with AMTRAK
> SEPTA,NJT,LIRR,ECT...
What's ECT?
- Lyle Goldman
The Act of Congress called for an "orderly liquidation." If the federal government delivers anything but, and/or cuts the Northeast's share of national transportation spending even further below its share of national taxes, I say we dump some tea.
I say we dump some tea.
Could that be carried out in an orderly fashion?
(I say we dump some tea.
Could that be carried out in an orderly fashion?)
Hey, it worked once. "Dont' Tread on Me."
Hey, it worked once. "Dont' Tread on Me."
I could just about imagine a 4-state secession of NY, NJ, CT and PA!
"Blue States of America" ...
MA, VT, NH too(and also maybe ME)
Heh. I take a good long healthy "act of congress" most mornings shortly after waking up. :)
"It is just plan dispicable that our elected officials can just stand by while millions of people have no way to work"
Well, it's really great that this won't affect you, John.
In actuallity, AMTRAK is looking at a phased shut-down that may not impact the commuter rail systems at first. The Transportation Secretary has summoned AMTRAK exec. board members to a meeting Monday to discuss an emergency bail-out. David Gunn says that even a phaded shutdown of AMTRAK would cost $50-$60 million.
The MBTA here in Boston, which contracts to AMTRAK to run the commuter rail, is developing contingency plans. So far, they have said they'll have "alternate bus service." RIGHT. Move 120,000+ people per day with buses over already super-congested roads? I don't think so. And where will they get the buses and drivers? (Hmmm... I have a B/P CDL :-)
Better tell the folks at Seashore to keep an eye on their fishbowl. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Although I'm working in another capacity until August, I took a ride up to the Bronx to check my mail etc. I was suprised that there was no letter about a contingency plan in the event that there is a shutdown of AMTRAK service into NYC.
The people who work for MTA haven't gotten them either.
[I hate to bring this up, but...]
Wasn't this (the non-availability of Penn Station) the contingency for which the "P" train was developed some years back? It was to have run super-express from Parsons/Archer over the J/Z line, then through the Christie Street connection, over to W. 4th Street, and on up to Penn. Station if I recall.
We may yet get to take a.... oh, never mind. That thread's been done over and over.
Is there even a P on the destination signs?
I think it is on the R-46 (or atleast when they came from the factory) it white globe and black P. Which along with I O were reserved for the SAS.
I believe I, O and U were reserved for the SAS. :)
I O U S A S
Yes, on the R32s and R38s. You can always use pen, paper, and tape too.
That's the frightening thing, no one is prepared.
We should've been making contingency plans. Also if they just got the damn LIRR-GCT connector built LIRR would still have access to Manhattan. For God sake, what is taking so bleeping long?
Okay, here's my take on the Amtrak situation. I think Amtrak should terminate their trancontinental routes and concentrate on the Northeast Corridor. Keep the Metroliner, the Montrealer, the Silver Star or the Silver Meteor, and trains to Boston and Albany-Renssalaer. They should continue moving mail for the Postal Service, but cancel the Auto Train. Since Amtrak must pay MN for the use of the MN main line to NH and the line to Poughkeepsie, I think MN should re-negotiate the trackage rights in lieu of Amtrak's possible demise.
we will also be affected by this out here !!
@ example : metrolink & up north caltrain san diego etc...
http://www.metrolinktrains.com/
so far nothing on that site but AMTRAK will stop metrolink !!
we will also be affected by this out here !!
@ example : metrolink & up north caltrain san diego Coaster etc...
http://www.metrolinktrains.com/
so far nothing on that site but AMTRAK will stop metrolink
BUT IT WILL !!
Yes, it will put a temporary stop to Metrolink....their spokespersons are saying "abotu a month" if a complete Amtrak shutdown occurs.
The reason is that Amtrak is the contractor who provides the train crews and dispatchers who work at Metorlink's Glendale dispatch center.
I think Amtrak should merge with a Railroad Company, to save the Entire System, Perhaps a Transit System such as NYCT, nahhhhh!
Maybe NJT and LIRR can make arraingements to use NY Penn Station.
As a fequent rider of all three railroads I mentioned above (I frequently commute between NYC and Philly by NJT and Septa), I am somewhat concerned by the prospect of an Amtrak shutdown shutting down these railroads, or important parts of them, next week.
I do know that all of these railroads have a desire to maintain service on track and stations currently owned (or mortgaged) by Amtrak. All own significant amount of track and maintain it fairly well, even on lesser-used lines than the lines that would be affected. All would be interested in maintaining their current service levels on these lines, and would suffer severe political consequences should this fail to happen.
Does anyone know what any of these railroads are planning on doing to keep their services running even if Amtrak does shut down? Or what they may try to do. Thanks.
If the AMTK defaults, and the Feds won't bail, then the Fed has abandoned the property, and the states (NY / NJ maybe PA) should move at once to seize the property (pay the mortgages) and run the railroad.
Elias
Wouldn't the abandoned trackage especially the NEC belong to each separate state according to where the rail goes? It might stay that way until one of the local rail companies decides to buy it like AMTRAK did.
I can't imagine they're not planning. It's all but a certainty by now. Amtrak is unable to get a loan because of financial inconsistancies in their books the mean no bank will touch them with a 10 foot pole, Congress is home for the weekend, and there's really not many rabbits out of a hat that anyone can pull before monday anyway. In any case, Amtrak will once again be screwed in october, thus there's very little incentive on any side to prop up Amtrak - the last thing anyone will want is Amtrak blowing up right before mid term elections. Voters have short memories (really, they do). If Amtrak shuts down next week as expected, within another month, most voters will have latched on to the latest sex scandal, terror flap, or whatnot. IMHO, everything being said now is just lip service to make the Amtrak advocates feel good - Amtrak is barely a blip on the mass media's radar now. I'm guessing most of DC has noticed that and is acting accordingly. Let it die now, do the normal few weeks of finger pointing, the media will get bored of the story and it'll fade. Die in october, it becomes a last second election issue, and everyone trips over each other pointing fingers. And I don't think anyone wants to lose an election of such sundry issue as an Amtrak 'scandal'.
Remember, most americans have haven't seen or ridden on Amtrak in years, if ever.
If it dies now then my Lake Shore Limited trip in August is sure fucked. Maybe I'll try riding on freight trains.
I took a little trip on the Philly subway lines today completing the old North South East West run. I filled up my 64 meg memory stick so I'll have lots of pictures to post later.
After taking PATCO into 8th and Market I caught a Market Frankford train to Frankford Terminal. Not much new on this part of the line. All the US&S A-10 switches have been removed and new signals/stips/transponders are going up at the interlockings. This really isn't much of a loss as all the interlockings already had GRS signals on this part of the line. The ride was, as always, very fast and the NYCT-S choul sure learn a thing or two. At Frankfort Terminal construction is progressing rapidly on the new terminal. The position of the new terminal will straighten out the current curve into the old terminal. There was a bit of good news in that the Bridge-Pratt interlocking is still pneumatic with at least 4 A-10 machines on the souther X over and 2 A-5 machines on the north X over.
I next rode the MFL all the way to 69th St. The Railfan window was scratched up so I didn't get many good pics on this leg. Upon my arrival at 69th St. I saw that the old trailing point crossover has been modified into a full crossover. Unfortunately there was much bad news in that the entire terminal interlocking and loop have had their pneumatic swiches removed and new signals are going up. I asked a signal maintainer if the yard still had pneumatics, but he said they were hand throw. He did not know the model number of the new GRS switches. The only good news was that I was able to confirm that the Rt. 100 uses a 100% US&S system. I had a quick bite to eat at this nice pizza place w/in the 69th st. terminal, but there was no rest for the weary and after a 15 min layover I was back on the rails.
The eastbound trip back to 15th St. provided some nice vistas of Center city and despite the age of the trackbed speeds of 50mph were frequent. I changed to a northbound BSS Express at City Hall and held onto my hat all the way to Fern Rock. I took a lot of pics as the train circled the yard and spotted a whole slew of US&S DA-10 pneumatic trailable yard switch machines in the Fern Rock shop and yard complex. To my disappintment I also spotted a few replacement YM-2000 electric machines. I was planning to lay over at Fern Rock to take some pics from the fare control platform, but due to two long waits at signals and the fact that I had to get to Ashland by 3:10 to see Minority Report I canceled my layover and rode the same train express back to Walnut-Locust where I transfered to PATCO.
Well that's my trip, I post pics just as soon as I process them.
Oh, BTW I made the movie and it was quite good. I highly recomend it.
Here is a positive little story from todays railfan trip to Philly. My westbound MFL train had just passed Spring Garden when I heard all sorts of alarms from the cab, the train slows and then stopps dead. The Motorman calls in, reporting that his train is dead. The next thing was really cool. The Motorman gets out of the cab, puts on a hi-vis vest, opens the front door, gets down on the tracks and proceeds to fix whatever was causing the problem. About 10 minutes later he gets back on board, enters the cab and off we go.
Even with OPTO, SEPTA morotmen are skilled and professional enough to be able to take charge and fix their own rail vehicles with out needing to call for and wait for technical support.
Did the Motorman tell you what was wrong with the Train? And are NYCT Motorman allowed to fix the Train is there is a problem?
If it's something minor they probably are. It isn't practical to screw upan entire subway line for an hour to dispatch a specialist.
When an NYC subway train trips due to problem with a signal, in some circumstances the T/O climbs out of the cab, resets the brake (I may not be describing the action correctly) and restarts the train.
If I recall right, when that 16 year old kid borrowed the A train for a joyride a number of years ago, he tripped the train by exceeding a 25 mph speed limit approaching 207 Street terminal. Control Center, thinking they are dealing with a real T/O, noted he had done so and told him to go ahead and restart the train and finish his run, which he refused to do because he was afraid of encountering rats in the tunnel - that's when a supervisor went to meet with him, and, in the course of taking him back to the office (he ran away) discovered he wasn't a TA employee.
At the time, a lot of people had sympathy for him, and at his trial, the TA's spokesperson even said that the TA would not hold a grudge and would consider him for employment as a T/O if he straightened out and finished school.
Subsequently, however, he was arrested and convicted of an armed robbery and assault - and destroyed his own future.
Mike, I think you're a morotman! (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
At this evenings ERA meeting one of our SubTalk members received the coveted Herman Rinke Award for his services above and beyond the call of duty in getting the NY Chapter access to a lecture hall at Cooper Union for the monthly meetings during the WTC recovery/clean up period.
BTW, congrats to both Lou L. and John S. for having survived the ERA meeting. Lou visited sometime last year. John S. on the other hand was a 'virgin' to all of the 'foamer' shenanigans.
Mr. T was pleased since the evenings schedule was a slideshow presentation by Joe Saitta covering the years of PCC Ops in the U.S. and across the globe. Nice choice of slides -- and dispite a poor sound system -- quite informative.
Glad to hear the show has gone well. Anyone for Portland over the Fourth of July? and what's on for July's meeting?
Herman Rinke was a good friend of yours truly. We spent a lot of time together. If you should choose to do so, please provide more detailed information about the award made in his name, the recipients, and how they modeled the behaviors and beliefs of Herman Rinke, an E.R.A. founder. We owe that to our newer SubTalkers, for they might not have any idea of how his essential role in establishing an interest in New York City's Subways was a worthy endeavor. Herman was an essential pioneer in our hobby and his legacy should be shared with SubTalkers who have no knowledge of whom he was. Herman always educated new members.
Yours truly can, if needed, provide details about this outstanding man. To this day, he is beloved.
I'm very concerned, because I just received my Amtrak "Guest Rewards" card in the mail a couple of weeks ago. If Amtrak shuts down, would it most likely be temporary, sort of like "going on strike", or would it be permanent, meaning that you will no longer be able to take a train from New York (or Boston) to Washington DC again? Should I hang on to my Guest Rewards card if Amtrak shuts down, or should I forget about the though of ever being able to use it, and throw it away?
I think for a few days (hours?) there will be major confusion as to what is and what isn't running. LIRR, MNRR, NJT, SEPTA and all the other local commuter railroads that use AMTRAK trackage should (might?) be able to take over local trackage rights for their trains to run. There might be some grumbling from the AMTRAK unions.
I think in the short term AMTRAK will be broken up and taken over by the smaller commuter lines so that there will be rail service. I don't think most of the trackage in the US are going to be outright abondoned. Somebody will start up a new rail service to pick up where AMTRAK was. I don't think the national economy will allow a prolonged shutdown of national rail service.
Save your "Guest Rewards" card. You might be able to use it by the end of the year. If not you can probably sell it on eBay.
Beyond the commuter rail issue, there is this issue: even if Amtrak is not operating a single train, there will still be costs for things like storage of equipment, maintenance, security, etc. Who will be picking up the tab for all this?
Even if Federal policy is to end all operating subsidies, the government shouldn't just stop everything on one month's notice. But just because they shouldn't do something doesn't mean they won't do it. I suspect that Bush isn't pacing the Oval Office right now (2:00 AM) worrying about it.
Nope, shrub's doing his four day weekend thing in Texas. There's been quite a buzz tonight among the Amtrak guys - it appears that there's going to be some SERIOUS "scorched earth" if the shutdown occurs. Crews have been told to just dump the train wherever it is, and walk away rather than an orderly shutdown. Amtrak wants to keep running RIGHT to the deadline. And the union guys are none too happy either.
But yes, word is power's going to be cut, signals dark, and trains left wherever they happen to be at midnight. Apparently the position of management is if commuter rails want to run, they'll have to talk to the judge since this will likely go straight to bankruptcy court and a restraining order on any movements until it's settled.
That's the ***RUMORS*** up here tonight ...
Here's the bullet from Gunn.
Gunn said Amtrak must have time -- perhaps a week -- to shut down the system in an orderly way so that passengers can have sufficient notice and Amtrak cars and locomotives can be moved to secure storage areas. Gunn said it would cost about $50 million to shut down the system and have enough money left over to pay employees to guard the equipment. Other small expenses would continue, such as keeping the overhead wires powered up in the Northeast Corridor so that thieves would not steal them.
Read the rest in my Washington Crap post.
They stuck that article way back in the Business Section, I couldn't find it until this morning...
The Post isn't that bad of a paper, I like the layout more than some other papers...
Here is today's Washington Post report on what might happen with Amtrak.
So, just to recap:
In addition to having no intercity passenger service in the event of an Amtrak shutdown, just about every commuter rail system in the country would also be shut down or at least severely crippled. Here's the full rundown, according to the Washington Post:
Washington, Baltimore area:
VRE: Completely shut down.
MARC: Penn Line shut down, fate of Camden and Brunswick Lines uncertain. Trains unable to enter Washington Union Station.
Expect massive overcrowding on the Washington Metro and on area highways.
New York, New Jersey, Philadelphia areas:
SEPTA Regional Rail: Largely shut down.
New Jersey Transit: Largely shut down.
Metro North: Mostly unaffected.
Long Island Railroad: Trains unable to enter Manhattan and Penn Station.
Expect massive congestion on an already-crippled PATH, Brooklyn and Queens subways and busses, and horrific congestion on New Jersey and Long Island highways. In Philly, expect massive crowding on SEPTA subways and trolleys, PATCO, and area highways.
Boston area:
MBTA Commuter Rail: Completely shut down.
Expect major crowding on MBTA subways, ferries, and area highways.
Chicago area:
Metra: Major disruptions as Milwaukee District North Line, Milwaukee District West Line, Burlington Northern Santa Fe Line, Heritage Corridor Line, Southwest Service Line, and North Central Line are unable to enter Chicago's Union Station. Other lines able to operate as long as they don't use Amtrak tracks.
South Shore Line: Not mentioned in the Post article, but probably unaffected.
Expect massive crowding on the few Metra lines remaining, even more crowding on CTA and Pace, and even more congestion on the highways. (Interestingly, there hasn't been a peep about this in the Chicago Tribune so far, but they'll be first to scream bloody murder when United Airlines goes under. Just watch.)
California:
CalTrans: Completely shut down.
MetroLink: Completely shut down.
I don't know how many people ride commuter rail in California compared to those who drive, but I'd still expect to see overcrowding on BART, LA Metro, and area highways.
[rant mode]
I don't think it's a stretch to say that this would be to passenger rail as to what 9/11 was to the airlines. But unlike 9/11, the blame for this fiasco can be placed squarely at the feet of our unelected president, George W. Bush and his like-minded Republican rednecks who still have the insane fantasy that public infrastructure should make a profit even as they hand blank checks to the airline and highway industries. I hope Gunn makes it loud and clear who is to blame for this mess. Just like his father and Newt Gingrich before him, Bush would rather fuck over almost every metropolitian area in the country rather than compromise his fanatical belief in capitalism-at-any-cost. Hopefully he'll suffer the same fate at the polls as Bush Sr. and Newt.
Anybody else find it ironic that almost every state affected by this went for Al Gore in 2000? But then, what do you expect from a president who says he goes to his ranch in Crawford, Texas to get back in touch with "real American values." What is New York, chopped liver? What he fails to realize is that most real Americans don't live on ranches in rural Texas. We live in places like Chicago, New Jersey, and Long Island. And we'll remember this in 2004.
Unbelievable. It's no wonder the rest of the industrialized world rolls their eyes at us.
[/rant mode]
-- David
Chicago, IL
Couldn't agree with you more. Thanks for your enlightening post.
I AM OUTRAGED, and I have e-mailed my two Senators, and will call my Congressperson Monday.
While some may object to the specific verbiage, the facts are undeniable.
David, isn't your congressperson one of those who refused to support military action after 9/11?
yes, and I am sure you have at least one disagreement with one or another of your various 'delegates'. However, I support her right to take the position, and while I remain extremely pissed off at the events of September, I am not completely happy with US response. If you have further questions in this mater please communicate directly as the transit connection is tenuous a best.
That said I still expect to speak to her office and am reasonably confident of her support for public transport.
I thought it was understood that after SubTalk came back from the hiatus, the board wouldn't be a dumping ground for posters inflamatory political opinions?
Amtrak will not be shutdown, and neither will the rail systems that use their right-of-way and facilities. It's just posturing.
We must really channel our energy into letter writing to our elected representative, from Curious George, to your Senators, and then your US Congressional district. And not only once, weekly letter writing is sometimes necessary.
I composed and mailed my letters this past week and plan to send another issue next week. It is the ONLY way they will know people are unhappy. No letters, they think everything is A-OK.
Now, more than ever, each of us should be doing letters either today or tomorrow instead of posting a bunch of political opinions on this board. Threads like this have a way of being removed anyway.
Jim K.
Chicago
Hope for the Best.
Prepare for the worse.
I think it will be worse.
I don't think David's post was an "inflamatory political opinion". Just about any topic related to rail transit has politics in just off the edge of the radar screen. I think somewhere about 99% of transit operators get signicant taxpayer subsidies. So what the politicians think and do is very much on topic. If Shrub and his ilk get there way, only the rich and superrich will get subsidies; the rest of us can walk!
We'll be certain to write checks for whoever is running against Hastert ...
"We'll be certain to write checks for whoever is running against Hastert ... "
Which is your right as a citizen of the USA. And as one citizen to another, I support your right to fund any candidate you care to. In fact, I support your right to have opposing points of view; however, I think we would have to agree to disagree on political issues.
Just make sure you keep your contributions under the limit.
BTW, I've got a huge stake in this also, as I have not owned an auto since moving here to Chicago six years ago. I just don't talk the talk, I walk and ride public transportation.
Have the two NY Senators weighed in on this yet? NYC has a great deal to lose if AMTRAK goes bust! Where is the LIRR going to terminate in Manhattan?
Jim K.
Chicago
Chuckie and Hillary have already voted in favor of keeping it running. So I suppose the question is what Durbin and Fitzgerald think. :)
Durbin could probably be counted on to support Amtrak, as he's the loyal voice of the Chicago Democratic machine in the Senate. I'm not sure about Fitzgerald, as most of his recent focus has been on trying to block O'Hare expansion in order to pander to the NIMBY crowd in the suburbs. I suppose it's possible he could support Amtrak, but I wouldn't count on it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sunday morning at 2:07 AM CDT - I see you have no life either.
I'm still surpised Hilary knows that AMTRAK exists.
Jim K.
Chicago
Heh. I'm at work actually ... while I'm waiting for code to compile, I have this open on another desktop waiting to see what trickles in. Beats twiddling thumbs or other parts of the anatomy. :)
Yeah, Hillary and Bill ride Meatball North most days of the week and Hillary takes the train to deecee and back. In the NYC area, you really don't want to drive unless you're in need of counseling. I'm way, way upstate which means Amtrak is the only game in town. That's the primary reason why I've been so militant. Amtrak is one of the few things that gets my arse up in the air.
But in our area, we're as mad as hell and we're looking to whip some politicos over all this. If we can subsidize Enron and UAL, by gum we can throw some money down the metal toity on the route of the pointless arrow as well. :)
"So I suppose the question is what Durbin and Fitzgerald think. :)"
Durbin is one of the sponsors of the pending legislation to increase Amtrak funding. More to the point, he made a speech directly attacking Mineta's "let them eat cake" speech. Past votes and statements have proven Durbin to be solidly pro-Amtrak.
Fitzgerald hasn't said bloody-all and isn't a sponsor of the bill.
Sounds like one needs to be replaced. :)
(Just like his father and Newt Gingrich before him, Bush would rather fuck over almost every metropolitian area in the country rather than
compromise his fanatical belief in capitalism-at-any-cost.)
Newt was a true believer. Bush is for suvival of the fittest for "them," and subsidies for "us." That's what Compassionate Conservatism is. See the massive increase in farm subsides, steel industry protection, etc.
(Anybody else find it ironic that almost every state affected by this went for Al Gore in 2000?)
In 1999, 36 states got more out of the federal government in spending than they paid in taxes; Bush won 24 of these, most of which tilt Republican. That was his innovation. The Republicans lost the 1996 and 1998 elections because the Suburbs and the Sunbelt perceived they were in favor of "less government" for everyone.
Your left-leaning liberal political panties are showing. If you think that this is a Democrat-vs republican issue - where are the bills in Congress to bail AMTRAK out? Surely with a democratic majority in congress such abill could be layed at the feet of the President with the speed that the 'emergency' would dictate. I don't see such a bill, do you? Perhaps you'll have to take back much of what you said after the Transportation Secretary meets with AMTRAK officials this week.
The house is still Republican controled and the Senate hs too small a majority to take a large positical risk in an election year. This will probably have a "political" outcome where nobody is a hero and nobody is accountable.
But we don't see the Democrats that are in office even trying to purpose the right bill, so perhaps your idea of nobody being a hero or accountable will come true. -Nick
But we don't see the Democrats that are in office even trying to purpose the right bill
Maybe you aren't looking.
From Saturday's Philadelphia Inquirer, an AP story by Lawrence Arnold:
Sen. Robert Byrd (D., W.Va.), chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, said yesterday he proposed that $200 million for Amtrak be included in the anti-terrorism bill that is the subject of negotiations between the Senate and the White House.
Senators from New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, Delaware, Maryland and Rhode Island urged Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta to act fast to prevent a shutdown.
"It is imperative that you act now," the senators wrote.
Also, the monetary powers are in the House, not the Senate. And the House has a substantial GOP majority. The Democratic Senate only has a miniscule edge, and you need 60 votes to pass a Senate bill.
There's another angle that puts this in the laps of Delay, Armey and Hastert ... the constitution requires that ANY BILL involving "money" MUST originate in the house of representatives ... if the house doesn't act, the senate cannot ...
And exactly how many AMTRAK 'bail-out' bills have the Democrats proposed and the Republicans have voted down?
Same number of Low-V's in service at 207th Street.
The defense rests!
Quite a few over the years in all sincerity ... if you have the time to go picking, the most meaningful display I could get out of google would be here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=amtrak+appropriation+democrats&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1
Please forgive me my own ire ... Amtrak is the "subway" up here. What WE are facing is every bit as serious as the LIRR or NYCTA being killed. And we're taking it JUST as hard as you folks down there would be ... mighty serious stuff to those of us along the upper Hudson outside of MTA country ...
with the Lirr to penn station gone, the E will be running at 200% capacity
Somehow I see a large part of the contingent falling to "rubber tires" (and we know how reliable Queens busses have been lately) ... at the same time though, I'm hearing rumblings that Amtrak *WILL* get the money as the clammor down in deecee is *SO* loud, Vice President ... Dick ... can even hear the noise inside his undisclosed secure location. What's amusing about all this though is that it'll all be back to haunt the politicos again, this time in October which is even closer to the elections.
Since there's a lot of Amtrak employees around here (Empire Corridor, Renssala is across the river) we get to hear all the good dirt from the UTU reps. Even some of the most recalcitrant politicos are getting the shakes over the outright venom pouring forth from their constituents. All except for the Shrub hisself of course, and that's only making his own angrier ... STILL no directions from the White House, Minetta is on his own here.
Actually, I don't have much more faith in the Democrats than I do in the GOP. The Democrats are typically about as inept as the Republicans are malicious, and both parties are loaded to the brim with self-serving hypocricy. I consider myself an independent, but my sympathies generally lean towards the Green Party.
And yes, I'm a flaming liberal, although I drive a gas-guzzling Trans Am and I eat lots of red meat. I make no apologies about it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Nice to know I have a fellow hypocrite to keep me company here...
ROTFLMFAO...really
Peace,
ANDEE
It is worth noting that the Transportation Secretary for the Bush Administration is Norman Minetta, as opposed to the Transportation Secretary for the Clinton Administration, who was Norman Minetta.
So you have the same person overseeing Amtrak in 2002 who was overseeing Amtrak in 1998, and let's face it -- Amtrak has been on ther chopping block one way or another every other year since the late 1970s. (and as for Sen. Byrd's $200 million proposal, check the fine print, boys -- knowing the King of Pork, odds are $180 million of it is probably targeted for rail service in West Virginia).
Mineta was the Commerce Secretary for Clinton after William Daley resigned to run the Gore campaign. He was NEVER Clinton's transportation secretary.
Clinton's transportation secretary in his first term was Frederico Peña. For his second term, it was Rodney Slater.
This pretty much invalidates much of your post.
Except that Minetta was a House Democrat from California when he was appointed to the Cabinet by Clinton, and AFAIK, is still a Democrat, which you would think if this was a partisan issue would have him saying something (of course, Norm has been up to his neck in the airport security problems, so he may consider having to deal with Amtrak as a walk in the park, Jack...)
"Metro North: Mostly unaffected"
How about the New Haven Line? Metro-North is not operated by Amtrak like the MBTA Commuter Rail, however the tracks on this line are owned by them; Metro-North pays top $$ to let their trains run. -Nick
I thought the NEC between New York and New Haven was owned by Metro North, and that Amtrak was at the mercy of Metro North along this stretch (hence, why the Acela trains run so slow through here).
If Amtrak owns the tracks, then I stand corrected. The New Haven lines would be screwed.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Crap! Amtrak does own these tracks; the Acela Express runs so slowly do to all the curves on the shoreline. I was planning to take Metro-North to NYC on Saturday; there's this little interleague game in da bronx that I have tickets for :-( -Nick
Metro North is the owner and operator if the New Haven Line between SHELL and NEW HAVEN EAST. That's why it sucks so badly.
You are correct, MNRR owns the New Haven Line.
The only problem NJT would have is that they wouldn't be able to use Penn Station so the Newark Division would be affected. Hoboken should be OK. I am not sure about Atlantic City but I think it would have some problems.
Wait, NJT can use Newark Penn, though???
NJT in Philly, if they can't use the (presumably barren) lower level of 30st they could simply use the upper level... it's not like SEPTA would be using it much.
Do they own the line to Atlantic City or is that Amtrak property? Or is it freight?
Amtrak owns the NEC, so Newark Penn would be out for NJT.
NJT owns the Atlantic City line in Jersey; Amtrak owns it in Philly, so the AC trains couldn't get to the upstairs level of 30th Street Station (if it were open).
What a strange kettle of fish, eh? :)
SEPTA would also be toast as it coudln't get through ZOO interlocking. They could operate the Reading division and possibly the R3 to Media as they own the West Chester Line w/ the exception of Arsenal interlocking, but those points could be spiked through and trains run past as all Arsenal does is allow R2/1 trains onto the NEC.
It is going to be a disaster for NYC (as if we haven't had enough with Sept.11th).
Crowding on the 7 and Queens Blvd lines will reach dangerous levels. Platform conductors and "pusher" type workers will have to push people in the cars.
Traffic will be severe, if you think Northern Blvd is bad now, just wait. LI Bus lines that serve subway stations (like the 4,6,20,21,22,and 24) will be jam packed with commuters. Port Washington line doesn't stop at Jamaica, if it can turn trains at Woodside there will probably be no service at all.
This is a real blow to NYC. Bush and Congress should be ashamed of themselves, after all the promises of being there for New York after Sept.11th. What a crock!
Platform conductors and "pusher" type workers will have to push people in the cars.
Yeah, like that's going to happen.
Besides, New York doesn't need pushers, we're rude, inconsiderate and as such are fully capable of pushing ourselves. In Tokyo, you only need pushers because the populace is more timid.
First of all, the sky isn't falling Mr. Little. AMTRAK will be running Tuesday and a week from Tuesday and even a month from Tuesday. Second, perhaps people may just opt to follow your example and just not work.
They can turn trains at Hunterspoint and Long Island City. And, if they can't go to NYP, may as well turn in the east river tubes as well.
Everything west of Harold, where the line to the Hell Gate Bridge diverts (the NY Connecting) is Amtrak. This includes the tunnels, and maybe the Hunterspoint Ave station.
-Hank
Even if Amtrak owns HP avenue station, it's not like we need their help in running it (unless the beer vendor is an Amtrak employee, then we're in trouble!).
The only problem is getting trains to HP station, which can be resolved by kindly asking the last tower operator to set the switches before he leaves. One path from the westbound local to the north HP track, the other from the south HP track to the eastbound local.
And the tower operator's motivation would be?
gratitude for losing his job and only source of income?
A big fat "going away present" check from the Long Island Railroad, of course! What with no certain employment for a while, a little bribery can go a long way.
Heh. LIRR's got supervision, Amtrak's got supervision, wonder whose tuxedos will win? But an interesting thought nonetheless. Still, LIRR *would* be "trespassing" and you know how railroads feel about that. :)
Tresspassing? Yeah, but there'd be no Amtrak personnel around to catch them by it!
If a train runs on Amtrak property, and no lawyers are around, is it really there?
If it goes on the ground, someone will notice. :)
Checks? You know they'll get him for that! The best thing would be a green-palmed handshake.
Everything west of Harold, where the line to the Hell Gate Bridge diverts (the NY Connecting) is Amtrak. This includes the tunnels, and maybe the Hunterspoint Ave station.
How about the Montauk Branch?
That's pure LIRR, but there's no easy way to get Port Washington service (or anything electric) down there.
That's pure LIRR, but there's no easy way to get Port Washington service (or anything electric) down there.
Okay, so send all electric trains to Flatbush (some headways may need to be lengthened), all non-electric trains to LIC (putting as many extra in service as possible). The Port Washington Line would terminate at Flushing Main St.
Actually, Shea Stadium would make a much better terminus. It's got extra tracks and platforms (albeit the stairs are ready to collapse) and both the Subway station and the LIRR station were designed to handle large crowds.
Actually, Shea Stadium would make a much better terminus. It's got extra tracks and platforms
As you can tell, I couldn't get the BAHN Layout of the LIRR to load last night, so I couldn't remember if it was Flushing or Shea which had the extra tracks - I guessed Flushing as it was full time. Not surprisingly, I was wrong.
Harold Interlocking is an AMTK operation, and so while the montauk branch is LIRR, I do believe that the LIC platforms are switched by Harold. I know Hunter's Point Avenue is switched by Harold.
So Hunters Point and LIC seem to be out if AmTK is out.
Elias
So Hunters Point and LIC seem to be out if AmTK is out.
Damn. only one thing for it. Re-open Penny Bridge station and insert a sprung switch at one end of it.
"Re-open Penny Bridge station and insert a sprung switch at one end of it."
Penny Bridge is Not controled by AMTK, LIRR could put a switch tender there with a radio and be done with it.
Elias
Penny Bridge is Not controled by AMTK, LIRR could put a switch tender there with a radio and be done with it.
Yay! Why commuters would want to end up in Calvary Cemetery, I don't know, but it'd be possible!
"Yay! Why commuters would want to end up in Calvary Cemetery, I don't know, but it'd be possible!"
Hadn't you heard...
People are just dying to get in!
That is whay they put fences around them afterall...
Seriously,,, They could single track into LIC from there.
thoes are LIRR Tracks, and stations, but only AMTK interlocking AFIK
Yay! Why commuters would want to end up in Calvary Cemetery, I don't know, but it'd be possible!"
Hadn't you heard...
People are just dying to get in!
ROTFLMAO
Seriously,,, They could single track into LIC from there.
thoes are LIRR Tracks, and stations, but only AMTK interlocking AFIK
Or if an X crossover were installed at Penny Bridge and a man with a lever and two tokens stationed there, there would be two single track paths into LIC Terminus!
The question is LIC - Midtown (how?). The 7 would already be 150% full from all the Port Wash riders joining at Shea and Flushing.
"The question is LIC - Midtown (how?). The 7 would already be 150% full from all the Port Wash riders joining at Shea and Flushing."
BOATS! New York Waterways would be thrilled!
Elias
"The question is LIC - Midtown (how?). The 7 would already be 150% full from all the Port Wash riders joining at Shea and Flushing." British James
BOATS! New York Waterways would be thrilled! Elias
New York Waterways is already chartering a number of fishing boats to ferry as many former PATH riders as possible.
Why a ferry of course, just like in the real old days!
Last February wasn't exactly the 'real old days', but that's ok :·).
Why a ferry of course, just like in the real old days!
Then I suppose onto the 34th St Shuttle to the 2nd and 3rd Av Els...
The terrorists have won ... and to think ... WE ELECTED THEM! I'm amused also by the fact that the Amtrak-funded trains in *TEXAS* will apparently keep running. Isn't a republican majority in congress headed by corrupt Texans just glorious? Just ask J.C. Watts from Missouri. He's so disgusted, he's apparently going to quit. And he was the poster boy for the party until all this ...
"I'm amused also by the fact that the Amtrak-funded trains in *TEXAS* will apparently keep running."
Cite?!?! Gunn has stated quite clearly that if they'res a shutdown, everything goes. There IS the potential for state-financed trains like the California corridors, Cascades, and the Empire and Keystone corridors to find new operators. However, THERE ARE NO STATE-FINANCED ROUTES IN TEXAS. Texas made a **one-time loan** some years ago to keep the Texas Eagle going. But all the trains in Texas are long-distance trains, and IF Amtrak goes, the long-distance trains are the surest to "stay dead".
So I ask again, where did you hear this?
The local guys who work out of Rennselaer (mighty unhappy lot at the moment) ... apparently Texas has some intercity routes and plans to keep them running somehow. But our guys don't know, they're locals. Merely spouting what I've heard and that's got the guys mighty unhappy. You got any dish on it?
By the way, what I heard out of the local guys last week is precisely what got announced. I had posted what I heard here and was amused to see how spot on UTU was keeping the local guys. But that's the word, special appropriations out of Dick Armey to keep Texas intercity going no matter what happens to Amtrak. How is anybody's guess. Maybe the Tandy trolleys? :)
What about the Dalas-Ft. Worth Trains.
AMTK might not know about those!
Certainly they do not own the track.
Maybe they have a different operator too.
Elias
Here you go DART.
"What about the Dalas-Ft. Worth Trains."
That COULD be the basis of the rumor. But those trains are commuter trains, on track the commuter authority owns outright IIRC, and Herzog is the contract operator, not Amtrak. http://www.herzogcompanies.com/herzog_transit_services2.htm
That is the Trinity Line. There are also two other lines (the Red and the Blue... Well DUH!) Herzog does not list those, so they may be run by another, probably by DART itself, but certainly not by AMTK.
Maybe Herzog would be happy to provide competition with AMTK, but they are a contractor to the operating authority, and NOT in the business of trying to make money from transit.
Amtk must be the same, a contractor providing service to the operating authority, which is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, and any state and regional authorites with whom they make contracts.
Elias
The Amtrak intercity routes in Texas -- the Sunset Limited via Houston, San Antonio and El Paso and the Texas Eagle, via Texarakana, Dallas-Fort Worth, Austin and San Antonio -- will be part of the nationwide shutdown.
Amtrak wanted to shut down the Texas Eagle completely four years ago, but Sen. Hutchison persuaded Bush and the Texas Legislature to throw in some subsidy $$$ to keep the line operating. Earlier this year, Gov. Perry released a plan that would add additional trains in the "Texas Triangle" between D-FW, Houston and San Antonio, which would serve an area where about two-thirds of the state's 20 million residents are. I assume they were expecting additional federal funding for the project, which may or may not be stillborn as the result of the current Amtrak problems and the upcoming guberatorial election (where both Perry and his Democratic opponent, Tony Sanchez, supported Bush in 2000).
Word I got indirectly is that funding was already set aside for THAT even if Amtrak goes four paws to the moon. Texas gets, we don't.
But the tracks between Houston and Dallas haven't been used for passenger rail service in years, though Amtrak was planning to reroute the Sunset along that route to travel to Los Angeles via the more densly populated I-20 corridor (the current route follows U.S. 90, which has more mule deer than people). And thanks to a dispute in the rail line placement by the Atcheson, Topeka & Santa Fe 130 years ago, the Fort Worth-San Antonio route bypasses Waco and goes through -- wait for it -- Crawford (the "Waco" stop is seven miles away, in McGregor, and 20 miles from downtown Waco itself).
Anyway, the Waco people are demanding the triangle service use the old Missouri-Kansas-Texas line that goes from Dallas to Austin via Waco as part of any interurban line, so any odds of any type of service seeing the light of day within the next decade are not good, no matter what initial appropriations have been made (though if you've ever been on I-35, you know Texas needs it, and, of course, had it up until about 1955, when the interurban rail system was abandoned).
Well, it does take mountain oysters for Delay and Armey to say "we're funding Texas and to hell with everybody else" ... :)
Hey, DeLay wouldn't fund a rail line if they gave him Corneilus Vanderbilt's own private rail car (Armey? He's been sulking the last few months because his son lost the primary race to succeed him in his North Dallas-Fort Worth district, but yea, he's a little like Gramm -- no to funding, but if it passes, be the first to the fax machine/e-mail send button to claim credit. Gramm's the all-time champ of that manuever).
Typical Republican slime
After reading this post, here is what will happen here in Philly if AMTRAK goes under:
R1) No service. Alternate- Bus shuttle from 30th st Station to the Airport. Eastwick passengers- use 36 trolley to either the 37 or 108 bus.
R2) No Marcus Hook-Wilmington-Newark service. Some passengers diverted to R3 trains, others to bus routes 37, 109, 113, 114, trolley routes 11, 13 ,(from Darby), 101, 102.
Delaware passengers (Claymont to Newark), up shit's creek or sit in I-95 traffic jams.
R3)Overcrowding due to diverted R2 passengers. Crappy service on this route gets EVEN WORSE. The other side (in Bucks County) will have to absorb the displaced R7 users. I-95 will be a parking lot.
R5) Those poor Main Liners will have to squeeze on the 105 bus, the 100 trolley or see if 1 railcar's worth of passengers can fit into a 40 seat New Flyer Bus on the 44. For those west of Paoli, your're up shit's creek. There's lots of sitting in route 202 / Schuylkill Expressway traffic for you. But you guys can handle if in your SUV's.
R6)All 5 of you who use the Cynwyd branch can squeeze onto the over crowded 44 bus to Center City.
R7)Trenton- You have the choice of 3 poisons. A) use the R3. B)Sit in I-95 traffic. C)For those who use the city stations on this line (Bridesburg to Torresdale), welcome to the 66 bus and the awful mess at Bridge St. And for you Chestnut Hill Riders, say goodby to your seats because all of the R8 West users will hog them before the damn train leaves the station!
R8) You poor riders of this line will either squeeze onto the R7 or try your luck on the 23, 53, H-XH bus lines. Oh yeah, carry a gun. You'll need it when you get off at the Broad and Erie ghetto.
NJT ACRL- You actually have it quite nice. You will be dropped off a Lindenwold and ride PATCO. You will get first dibs on the seats, and have a relaxing ride into Philly. You will also know how much you'll be screwing everybody else who get on the train after Lindenwold. Hope your conscience is clear on that note.
I wonder, what SEPTA and NJT doing about this?
After reading this post, here is what will happen here in Philly if AMTRAK goes under:
R1) No service. Alternate- Bus shuttle from 30th st Station to the Airport. Eastwick passengers- use 36 trolley to either the 37 or 108 bus.
R2) No Marcus Hook-Wilmington-Newark service. Some passengers diverted to R3 trains, others to bus routes 37, 109, 113, 114, trolley routes 11, 13 ,(from Darby), 101, 102.
Delaware passengers (Claymont to Newark), up shit's creek or sit in I-95 traffic jams.
R3)Overcrowding due to diverted R2 passengers. Crappy service on this route gets EVEN WORSE. The other side (in Bucks County) will have to absorb the displaced R7 users. I-95 will be a parking lot.
R5) Those poor Main Liners will have to squeeze on the 105 bus, the 100 trolley or see if 1 railcar's worth of passengers can fit into a 40 seat New Flyer Bus on the 44. For those west of Paoli, your're up shit's creek. There's lots of sitting in route 202 / Schuylkill Expressway traffic for you. But you guys can handle if in your SUV's.
R6)All 5 of you who use the Cynwyd branch can squeeze onto the over crowded 44 bus to Center City.
R7)Trenton- You have the choice of 3 poisons. A) use the R3. B)Sit in I-95 traffic. C)For those who use the city stations on this line (Bridesburg to Torresdale), welcome to the 66 bus and the awful mess at Bridge St. And for you Chestnut Hill Riders, say goodby to your seats because all of the R8 West users will hog them before the damn train leaves the station!
R8) You poor riders of this line will either squeeze onto the R7 or try your luck on the 23, 53, H-XH bus lines. Oh yeah, carry a gun. You'll need it when you get off at the Broad and Erie ghetto.
NJT ACRL- You actually have it quite nice. You will be dropped off a Lindenwold and ride PATCO. You will get first dibs on the seats, and have a relaxing ride into Philly. You will also know how much you'll be screwing everybody else who get on the train after Lindenwold. Hope your conscience is clear on that note.
I wonder, what SEPTA and NJT doing about this?
After reading this post, here is what will happen here in Philly if AMTRAK goes under:
R1) No service. Alternate- Bus shuttle from 30th st Station to the Airport. Eastwick passengers- use 36 trolley to either the 37 or 108 bus.
R2) No Marcus Hook-Wilmington-Newark service. Some passengers diverted to R3 trains, others to bus routes 37, 109, 113, 114, trolley routes 11, 13 ,(from Darby), 101, 102.
Delaware passengers (Claymont to Newark), up shit's creek or sit in I-95 traffic jams.
R3)Overcrowding due to diverted R2 passengers. Crappy service on this route gets EVEN WORSE. The other side (in Bucks County) will have to absorb the displaced R7 users. I-95 will be a parking lot.
R5) Those poor Main Liners will have to squeeze on the 105 bus, the 100 trolley or see if 1 railcar's worth of passengers can fit into a 40 seat New Flyer Bus on the 44. For those west of Paoli, your're up shit's creek. There's lots of sitting in route 202 / Schuylkill Expressway traffic for you. But you guys can handle if in your SUV's.
R6)All 5 of you who use the Cynwyd branch can squeeze onto the over crowded 44 bus to Center City.
R7)Trenton- You have the choice of 3 poisons. A) use the R3. B)Sit in I-95 traffic. C)For those who use the city stations on this line (Bridesburg to Torresdale), welcome to the 66 bus and the awful mess at Bridge St. And for you Chestnut Hill Riders, say goodby to your seats because all of the R8 West users will hog them before the damn train leaves the station!
R8) You poor riders of this line will either squeeze onto the R7 or try your luck on the 23, 53, H-XH bus lines. Oh yeah, carry a gun. You'll need it when you get off at the Broad and Erie ghetto.
NJT ACRL- You actually have it quite nice. You will be dropped off a Lindenwold and ride PATCO. You will get first dibs on the seats, and have a relaxing ride into Philly. You will also know how much you'll be screwing everybody else who get on the train after Lindenwold. Hope your conscience is clear on that note.
I wonder, what SEPTA and NJT doing about this?
Haven't seen a triple post for a while.
Sorry for the triplet, the net is slow tonight, and I got quite impatient.
Actually, with the entire PRR side rendered useless, SEPTA has a huge surplus of equipment and can probably either lengthen trains or provide additional service. But how well will they be able to turn trains?
Boy, even our illustrious Prime Minister wouldn't let Via Rail go the way like that.
Oh, Bushie, Bushie, Bushie. Let's see you get away from THIS mess! Even ole Jean Chretien wouldn't sink this low.
-J!
Well Damn!! Everybody gonna be affected by Amtrak!
I spoke to a PATH Agent at 14th ST this AM. The Agent told me PATH would honor NJT rail tickets on PATH. They also plan no extra trains.
There's an article in yesterday's Boston Globe that pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole Amtrak affair: Amtrak is about to be run over by Derrick Jackson.
And speaking of media coverage, there still hasn't been a blip about this whole affair in the right-wing Chicago Tribune. (It made the front page on today's Sun-Times.)
Oh, and our friends at United Airlines have announced that they're now seeking $1.8 billion (that's billion with a "B") in federal loans to avoid bankruptcy. It will be interesting to see how this plays out while Amtrak is asking for pocket change in comparison.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Very good article. Pound for pound, rail uses much less money than road and air. Sea transport is probably the least costly mode. Anyway, numbers like these is what I based my other post in the "Amtrak must die" thread. Rail, because of it's lower costs, has the potential to become more profitable than air. The gov't needs to upgrade rail facilities so that a private company can come in a run the railroad. This is exactly how the air industry works (gov't builds airport, companies comes in and pay fees for using it), so I don't see how it can't work with rail also.
From WCBS-TV: NJT would have to sahut down their lines using Amtrak's rails=- meaning goodbye Northeast Corridor and Goodbye North Jersey Coast and Good Byhe Raritan Valley Line and goodbye Atlantic City Line sinc eall use the AMtrak Tracks for part or all of their travel.
I have now contacted NJ DOT to see if they have any plans.
dont forget what happens to the rest of the commuter lines all over
( not just the easta coasta ) !!!
And I just got an Amtrak Guest Rewards credit card - you get miles for every purchase you make.... I hope to take advantage of it!!! Otherwise I will have to cancel it - I have no use for it other than the Amtrak miles.
Check Out this Cool Pic of the Cab Controls of the DM-30-AC Loco:
Why does the speed controller look so weird?
Who Knows, It looks better than most Diesel Locomotive Control Panels.
The controller (throttle/reverser) looks a lot like a standard EMD diesel controller BTW, Where is the EBV (Electronic Brake Valve)
i think that golden thing is the brakes
That's the horn valve
Actually if they kept the horn where it was, but change only the valve, the locomotive would have kept its sleek look to this day. I still hate the horn placement to this day.
Interesting. I guess EMD finally got the message and dumped the stupid desktop type controllers they were using. It's interesting - in Europe, they center the control console in the center of the cab and wrap everything around. Much like you see here, just centered, not to the right. Though the controls are toward the front. US operating practice/preference seems to be to have them to the sides. very useful in situations where you need to be reversing, etc.
The computer display stuff seems to be the way things are headed. Hope they're reliable!
Is that a deadman foot pedel? Is it safe? If the engineer passes out, can their foot stay on that thing?
That type locomotive has an alertor type safety control. if one of the operating controls has not been touched for 30 seconds, an audible alarm is sounded and the engineer has 5 seconds to push the yellow button alongside the horn valve or the locomotive goes BIE. this replaces the old D1 Safety Control Foot Valve. or "deadman pedal".
Why does the horn valve have to be so big?
They are spool type valves and the valve portion is usually mounted behind the control stand bulkhead.
I took a walk through this corridor, which opened today. It's very long and very plain, with one stairway to the Uptown Platform. Cool overall...Great to see the progress with this massive construction project. They are slowly tiling the staircases from the shuttle/N,Q,R,W area up to the 42nd and 7th ave exits, as one was complete, but roped off.
It's about time! It's been closed since last March or so, IIRC.
Are the clown faces still there?
I'll check it out tomorrow morning.
The Northern most track at Coney Island has been taken out. The N platform is gone, too. Wonder what the station will be like when it's done.
The N Line platform has been removed. The track at the tip is gone too. They kept the one next to the Q Trains for yard moves through the station. Also, there is new structure work (about 1 train width)next the the removed track.
Here's a link to see a sketch of what the Silverliner V interior looks like:
Silverliner V Interior Sketch
Looks like an M4 to me. Go figure SEPTA.
I went out railfanning at Metuchen station today and noticed some interesting things.
1) The first car of one of AMTRAK's Acela Regional had a painted scheme of purple, red, and yellow OVER the turquoise and the metal carbody noting a YAHOO! advertisement. From the bottom of the car to the ends leaving about 3 feet from the side doors, and all across the top the "light paint" was colored on.
2) A mysterious 4-car consist of Arrow III's arrives at 6:26p. I've never seen a 4-car train in service before, especially not on the NEC. This train is not part of the schedule, and when this train is about to leave, the automated announcement turns on and says:
ding,,,,ding... "Attention Metuchen passengers. The 6:27p train to Jersey Av. is operating 5.. to 10 minutes late. We apologize for the inconvenience. .. beepbeepbeepbeep"
The 6:27 train with a 12-car consist comes at 6:31p.
3) I've seen another s/b Acela Regional with TWO HHP-8 loco's pulling a 10-car or so consist.
4) Noticed all the other trains besides the AE n/b were powered by AEM7/AC's. I guess AMTRAK's not in favor of the AEM7's anymore.
5) Some trains n/b were dragging along to Metropark even if the train was late and there are no other trains on track 1.
6) Noticed a set of Arrow III's with bold-faced car number font, and they do have some differences in phyical features.
Questions:
1) What was the deal with the painted Acela Regional Amfleet car with the YAHOO! ad? I've never seen a car like that before.
2) Does anybody know about this strange 4-car train? Also, who controls the automated announcements at the NEC stations for NJT?
3) Do Acela Regionals pull two HHP-8's at once for a reason?
4) Are the AEM7/AC's in more demand for service than the AEM7's?
5) Why do n/b trains drag along especially on the segment between Metuchen and Metropark even if the train might be late and there are no trains on that track for a long distance?
6) What real difference is there between the Arrow III's with bold-faced car #'s and the regular font #'s? The thing is, on normal font cars, the car without the pantograph has a much wider "air intake" machine on the top of the center doors, while the bold-faced car has the same small size intake as the one with the pantograph.
Car #1520 has the bold-faced font and the two differences are found on Arrow III MJ-series (100 pairs).
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
The YAHOO car offers free or pay internet kiosks.
I believe it is free.
The YAHOO car offers free or pay internet kiosks.
What are these that you mention?
Any more information to back this up?
So I guess nobody else knows about the answers to my questions? Neither about the one with the internet kiosks?
First, the matter of the internet kiosks was settled, it needn't be repeated.
And second, there is no need for you to waste time posting a followup message if nobody responded. If nobody responded then, nobody will respond now.
You responded :)
It's a funny thing when posts flop. Some people try to give it CPR, while others (like me) tend to let them die quietly. If I actually still want the answers two months later I'll try again with better wording.
I must be very bored right now, I just spent 5 minutes going over the wording of a post about posts! Yeesh.
I have my scanner out right now listening to the tie replacement action and I just heard a PATCO train is stuck on the BFB Eastbound, next to Cambells Field. Its brakes applied and refused to release. The operator tried just about everything under the sun, but ould not isolate or fix the problem. The brake cyninder pressure began to decline so the dispatcher had the operator apply the hand brake on the cars and wait for a rescue train. This train is currently at Collingswood. Stay Tunned.
The Rescue train just got permission past the stop signal at 32L (City Hall) and to proceede up to the stopped train w/o ATC at restricted speed.
The rescue train has reached the crippled train high up on the BFB. They are transferring passengers, BUT there has been an unforseen devolopment. One of the passengers is in a wheelchair? The tension mounts.
Due to the presence of the person in the wheelchair, they are going to couple the rescue train to the disabled train and will try to pump up the brake line and get everything moving. They just made the connection.
THEY ARE HEADED EASTBOUND! THE TRAIN IS BACK IN SERVICE AND THE PASSENGERS SAVED. All in a day's work for PATCO.
The train is at Broadway and it had another brake fault indication comming from the third car and one of the doors woudln't close. They managed to reset both faults, but they are transferring the passengers to the next train waiting accross the platform. What a horror story. Signal 38L has been cancled so this train ain't goin nowhere.
Well, alls well that ends well. At least they aren't trapped on the bridge anymore.
I can't imagine how many passengers would be riding at 2 am though, even if it is a Friday night.
Due to the presence of the person in the wheelchair, they are going to couple the rescue train to the disabled train and will try to pump up the brake line and get everything moving. They just made the connection.
From the Associated Press:
Amtrak President David Gunn said yesterday that he will begin shutting down rail passenger service nationwide "in the middle of next week" and put Amtrak into bankruptcy unless the Bush administration approves a $200 million loan guarantee or Congress nears passage of a direct appropriation or loan guarantee.
Federal Railroad Administrator Alan Rutter said the FRA will be unable to give Gunn an answer on his loan guarantee request before early next week. And the Transportation Department's chief financial officer, Donna McLean, said that even if Congress appropriates the $200 million, the administration would insist that the legislation include "reforms" consistent with principles laid out yesterday by Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta.
The Amtrak saga was played out before the Senate Appropriations subcommittee on surface transportation, whose Democratic and Republican members excoriated Rutter and McLean for failing to take action sooner.
Although not all the details have been worked out, Amtrak officials indicated that no trains would be stopped immediately and no passengers stranded. All long-distance trains would be allowed to finish their runs, and a date would be set for shutting down the Northeast Corridor service between Washington and Boston. "The urgency of this is enormous," Gunn said. "We are near the point of no return."
Despite Amtrak's many years of losses and realizations that it could never become self-sufficient, the suddenness of the shutdown threat surprised subcommittee members, who had thought they might have until the end of the month. One possible reason, disclosed by Gunn in answer to a question from subcommittee chairman Patty Murray (D-Wash.), is that Amtrak lost $200 million more than previously believed in fiscal 2001 -- $1.19 billion instead of $990 million. That widened loss, recently discovered by Amtrak's auditors, apparently is one of the key reasons that outside auditor KPMG has refused so far to declare Amtrak a "going concern," making a bank loan all but impossible to obtain.
There was no explanation for the large discrepancy, but in only five weeks on the job, Gunn has been highly critical of Amtrak's bookkeeping and is instituting a new budgeting system. "Clearly there's a problem if we have that big a swing," Gunn said.
Gunn said Amtrak must have time -- perhaps a week -- to shut down the system in an orderly way so that passengers can have sufficient notice and Amtrak cars and locomotives can be moved to secure storage areas. Gunn said it would cost about $50 million to shut down the system and have enough money left over to pay employees to guard the equipment. Other small expenses would continue, such as keeping the overhead wires powered up in the Northeast Corridor so that thieves would not steal them.
In some ways, the Amtrak crisis appeared to be changing into a "who-blinks-first" showdown between Congress and the Bush administration, with Gunn caught in the middle. Murray said that if a shutdown occurs,"the administration can explain why it would allow intercity rail passenger service to die when many of us in Congress are ready and willing to fund it."
Rutter and McLean repeatedly sidestepped pointed questions on whether they would take whatever action is needed to prevent a shutdown. They said that they were "working furiously" to determine whether they could legally grant Amtrak's request for a loan guarantee under the Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing Program.
Kenneth Mead, the Transportation Department's inspector general, expressed doubts about whether Amtrak could legally get a loan under the program, which is supposed to cover long-term capital needs, not operating costs. In the speech that McLean alluded to yesterday, Mineta told the U.S. Chamber of Commerce that the states should pay a larger share of passenger train costs, that Amtrak's Northeast Corridor operation should be spun off to a "partnership" of states and corridor users, and that some Amtrak routes and services should be contracted out.
Murray shot back that there is "no way" those proposals will be included in the supplemental appropriations bill. "I want to make one thing clear," she said. "The administration has not submitted any reform legislation to this committee or any other committee. All they have done is make a speech. The proposals in the speech are controversial. . . . If the administration wants reforms, they can propose them in legislation to the authorizing committees."
The Mineta principles drew almost universal bipartisan opposition in Congress, with two major exceptions: Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), who commended Mineta and said the first step to reform should be to fire the entire Amtrak board of directors, and Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, who said that many of Mineta's recommendations can be accomplished without new legislation.
The Amtrak Reform Council, which previously made similar recommendations, praised the Mineta principles but said it is also important to keep Amtrak running now. But numerous members of Congress, union leaders and passenger advocacy groups criticized Mineta's proposal. "Finally, after months of delay, we have the administration's model for the future of rail passenger service in America," said Rep. James L. Oberstar (D-Minn.), his voice dripping with sarcasm. "It was not worth the wait."
Citizens Against Government Waste (CAGW) applauded the Bush Administration for proposing to terminate Amtrak's monopoly on intercity passenger service thereby introducing more competition. The plan also calls for states to decide which services will be offered and to help cover costs, and will strip Amtrak of its major capital asset, the Northeast Corridor tracks, running from Washington through New York to Boston.
"At long last, steps are being taken to reform one of the most wasteful and inefficient government boondoggles in taxpayer history," CAGW President Tom Schatz said. "Since its creation, Amtrak has cost $500 million in subsidies per year, and had an operating loss of $1.1 billion in 2001. Its intercity passenger service alone lost $87.20 per passenger in 2001. Fewer and fewer people use it, due to less costly and more efficient alternatives, yet everyone pays for it through taxes. A roundtrip Amtrak ticket from Washington, DC to Chicago costs $174 and takes about 43 hours. Greyhound offers bus service at $89 and roundtrip travel time of about 32 hours. United Airlines offers a roundtrip ticket for $184.50 with a total flight time of about 4 hours. This is a perfect example of why Amtrak has reached the end of the line."
Amtrak's latest financial calamity is so critical that the railroad faces shut down in two weeks, during the peak of travel season, due to lack of funds. As part of its reform plan, the administration is considering a guaranteed loan of at least $200 million, while the Senate would like to see funding included in its current supplemental bill. Amtrak has calculated it will need at least $1.2 billion in next year's budget to stay afloat. The administration has stated it will oppose anything over $521 million and is encouraging states to take on more of the cost.
"This plan provides a viable solution to making Amtrak profitable and market-driven for the first time. Many services will be contracted out, while inefficient routes will be eliminated unless states individually or collectively decide to subsidize them," Schatz also said.
In the 2002 budget, several members of Congress earmarked millions of dollars for light rail projects in their states, including $14.5 million for California, Iowa, Maryland, New Mexico, and Utah. California received $6.5 million for a project to extend light rail between Oceanside and Escondido, while Utah received $3 million for an extension of the system in Salt Lake City.
"Politicians love to pour money into rail systems, believing it is a key part of the country's infrastructure. However, the days of the Transcontinental Railroad are over, and people today rely mostly on cars and airplanes for transport," concluded Schatz. "The administration's plan may end up being today's golden spike that finally ends the wasteful boondoggle that is Amtrak."
Citizens Against Government Waste is the nation's largest nonpartisan, nonprofit organization dedicated to eliminating waste, fraud, abuse, and mismanagement in government.
Despite Amtrak's many years of losses and realizations that it could never become self-sufficient, the suddenness of the shutdown threat surprised subcommittee members, who had thought they might have until the end of the month. One possible reason, disclosed by Gunn in answer to a question from subcommittee chairman Patty Murray (D-Wash.), is that Amtrak lost $200 million more than previously believed in fiscal 2001 -- $1.19 billion instead of $990 million. That widened loss, recently discovered by Amtrak's auditors, apparently is one of the key reasons that outside auditor KPMG has refused so far to declare Amtrak a "going concern," making a bank loan all but impossible to obtain.
If only one congresscritter (to steal a term from Selkirk) had the balls to mention how much the airlines were costing us per year, this whole thing could be over in 5 minutes.
Balls? Politicos? Heh. That's a knee-slapper. :)
By the way, NEXT transporation calamity is United Airlines. EVEN WITH the federal subsidies, they're going down in a week or two. Gee, shouldn't THEY be profitable?
Only two years after the "regime change" it looks like the Amish are the only ones that won't be affected by "transportation policy" ...
Only two years after the "regime change" it looks like the Amish are the only ones that won't be affected by "transportation policy" ...
What are you crazy? The Amish are like 10% of the passengers on Keystone and long laul trains to Chicago over the PRR main. Since they don't believe in motorized road vehicles its the only way they can visit the other Amish who live in ohio or visit the big city.
The "old order Amish" shun all forms of mechanized transportation, regardless of whether or not it is on road or rail. The Amish in Ohio, and some of the Amish in Pennsylvania, are more "modern" Amish who advocate a simple lifestyle but who do not shun mechanical contrivances (or conveyances, for that matter).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All I know is what I see and what I see are proportionally large groups on Amish on Amtrak PRR Main trains and in 30th St. Station.
All I know is what I see and what I see are proportionally large groups on Amish on Amtrak PRR Main trains and in 30th St. Station.
No argument there, but they're not "old order" Amish; those who are riding the train have no religious aversion to automobiles or modern amenities. Rather, they simply choose to live apart, dress modestly and distinctly (much like many Orthodox Jews), but they still accept the technological advances that are available. Two years ago my wife and I encountered a large Canadian Amish family in Toronto; they were from Saskatchewan and were taking a vacation in between harvests. The father was pointing out a passing CN train of grain hoppers to his children, telling them that the grain they had just harvested might well be in those hoppers that they were seeing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"By the way, NEXT transporation calamity is United Airlines. EVEN WITH the federal subsidies, they're going down in a week or two. Gee, shouldn't THEY be profitable?"
United Airlines, I've been flying the "friendly skies" since 1970.
In the past five years, United has done many things to put itself in the situation it is in today. It tried to expand too quickly, for one thing. It had inept management who were rewarded for their part in the step by step journey to financial disaster.
And now, what becomes of my 200,000 Mileage Plus miles?
United will get what it deserves, even though many loyal customers remained faithful right up to the end.
Jim K.
Chicago
Best get your floying in while you can, please return your seats to the fully upright position and remain seated until the plane comes to a full stop in the courthouse. :)
"If only one congresscritter (to steal a term from Selkirk) had the balls to mention how much the airlines were costing us per year, this whole thing could be over in 5 minutes."
Isn't that the truth!
The airline industry was 'given' more money in 2001 than Amtrak has been granted in all its years of existence. I think I saw that quote recently also.
I am one who has witnessed the evolution of the passenger train from the 1960's until today. I disagree with those who post here that Amtrak can be broken up and operated 'for a profit'. It has been tried in Europe with negative results - just look at Great Britain.
I'll add that I agree whole heartedly that competition is the best deal for the consumer. But passenger rail service is one that will never again be able to pay its own way. If you do your research, the 'great' passenger trains of good old days didn't pay their way and were subsidized by the freight business so that the private railroads could market their freight business.
ALL of our public transportation in this country operates with some sort of aid from the public purse. Greyhound uses the Interstate and the airlines, via the 8% tax the passengers pay, use the air traffic control and airports.
So where does this leave us? David Gunn has had experience dealing with Congress when he ran the WMATA. And hopefully, some of the letters being written by those who see the idiocy of the move to shut down Amtrak will spark a few in Congress to begin to get off their asses and start doing something. However the sad fact is that David Gunn and Amtrak have no lobbying money behind them.
I've used Amtrak extensively over the past twenty years. The Broadway Limited was my preferred method of travel when the train had the slumbercoach and ran on the ex-PRR line through Fort Wayne. I've had the occasion to ride all the major routes except the Chicago - New Orleans train.
Recently however, out of necessity and the poor Amtrak service I've encountered in the past five years, I fly most of the time.
Jim K.
Chicago
I love how the article gives four paragraphs to Tom Schitz and his right-wing Citizens Against Goverment Waste, but nary a peep to any pro-rail groups. And who said yellow journalism was a lost art?
Sickening.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Tom Schitz
If there was ever a more fitting name for a person, I haven't heard it.
Shhh! Don't tell Railfan Pete
CAGW major sponsor list could very well be the airlines. Schatz is a walking airline advertisement.
I've said this many times: AMTRAK WON'T SHUT DOWN, GUNN IS DOING THIS TO "THREATEN" CONGRESS FOR MORE MONEY. There is no way in HELL any congress scum would allow Amtrak removed from their state. They'll wait until the last minute to give the money, though.
And I, who has been watching the Amtrak saga since 1970, along with the pinch-penny cash coming from Washington for the last 32 years, agree whole-heartly with Rob. Already the Senate and House members from both sides of the political spectrum are lining up pro-ATK, with comments like "How did we get ourselves in this mess" and Why did we let this go on for so long". Governors from Mass to Virginia are bugging Shrub to fix it now and forever.
They'll wait until the last minute to give the money, though.
100% right - and they'll wait until the 10 1/2 hour to put it on Bush's desk - and he'll sign it right away and take the credit for all that was done on Capitol Hill.
I wouldn't wager on that - McCain, Dick Armey, Tom Delay and others have been itching for this for a long long time. They've even gone home for the weekend to make CERTAIN that they can't be annoyed. Shrub himself has also pretty much stated that if congress DOES do anything to halt this, he'll veto any such bill to rescue Amtrak. If we want to commute from hither to yon, we're going to have to talk to Hannibal about renting an Elephant ...
You mean that our president actually wants Amtrak to shut down? If he vetoes a bill to keep Amtrak running, he'll probably be the most hated President in American history!
- Lyle Goldman
Well, for a president that doesn't function by polls, Andy Card now has him saying he's all for Amtrak ... "provided that reforms are in place" ... we'll see what happens if part of that reform is no more choochoos for Crawford, TX ... :)
Despite Amtrak's many years of losses and realizations that it could never become self-sufficient, the suddenness of the shutdown threat surprised subcommittee members, who had thought they might have until the end of the month. One possible reason, disclosed by Gunn in answer to a question from subcommittee chairman Patty Murray (D-Wash.), is that Amtrak lost $200 million more than previously believed in fiscal 2001 -- $1.19 billion instead of $990 million. That widened loss, recently discovered by Amtrak's auditors, apparently is one of the key reasons that outside auditor KPMG has refused so far to declare Amtrak a "going concern," making a bank loan all but impossible to obtain.
If only one congresscritter (to steal a term from Selkirk) had the balls to mention how much the airlines were costing us per year, this whole thing could be over in 5 minutes.
Balls? Politicos? Heh. That's a knee-slapper. :)
By the way, NEXT transporation calamity is United Airlines. EVEN WITH the federal subsidies, they're going down in a week or two. Gee, shouldn't THEY be profitable?
Only two years after the "regime change" it looks like the Amish are the only ones that won't be affected by "transportation policy" ...
Only two years after the "regime change" it looks like the Amish are the only ones that won't be affected by "transportation policy" ...
What are you crazy? The Amish are like 10% of the passengers on Keystone and long laul trains to Chicago over the PRR main. Since they don't believe in motorized road vehicles its the only way they can visit the other Amish who live in ohio or visit the big city.
The "old order Amish" shun all forms of mechanized transportation, regardless of whether or not it is on road or rail. The Amish in Ohio, and some of the Amish in Pennsylvania, are more "modern" Amish who advocate a simple lifestyle but who do not shun mechanical contrivances (or conveyances, for that matter).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All I know is what I see and what I see are proportionally large groups on Amish on Amtrak PRR Main trains and in 30th St. Station.
All I know is what I see and what I see are proportionally large groups on Amish on Amtrak PRR Main trains and in 30th St. Station.
No argument there, but they're not "old order" Amish; those who are riding the train have no religious aversion to automobiles or modern amenities. Rather, they simply choose to live apart, dress modestly and distinctly (much like many Orthodox Jews), but they still accept the technological advances that are available. Two years ago my wife and I encountered a large Canadian Amish family in Toronto; they were from Saskatchewan and were taking a vacation in between harvests. The father was pointing out a passing CN train of grain hoppers to his children, telling them that the grain they had just harvested might well be in those hoppers that they were seeing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"By the way, NEXT transporation calamity is United Airlines. EVEN WITH the federal subsidies, they're going down in a week or two. Gee, shouldn't THEY be profitable?"
United Airlines, I've been flying the "friendly skies" since 1970.
In the past five years, United has done many things to put itself in the situation it is in today. It tried to expand too quickly, for one thing. It had inept management who were rewarded for their part in the step by step journey to financial disaster.
And now, what becomes of my 200,000 Mileage Plus miles?
United will get what it deserves, even though many loyal customers remained faithful right up to the end.
Jim K.
Chicago
Best get your floying in while you can, please return your seats to the fully upright position and remain seated until the plane comes to a full stop in the courthouse. :)
"If only one congresscritter (to steal a term from Selkirk) had the balls to mention how much the airlines were costing us per year, this whole thing could be over in 5 minutes."
Isn't that the truth!
The airline industry was 'given' more money in 2001 than Amtrak has been granted in all its years of existence. I think I saw that quote recently also.
I am one who has witnessed the evolution of the passenger train from the 1960's until today. I disagree with those who post here that Amtrak can be broken up and operated 'for a profit'. It has been tried in Europe with negative results - just look at Great Britain.
I'll add that I agree whole heartedly that competition is the best deal for the consumer. But passenger rail service is one that will never again be able to pay its own way. If you do your research, the 'great' passenger trains of good old days didn't pay their way and were subsidized by the freight business so that the private railroads could market their freight business.
ALL of our public transportation in this country operates with some sort of aid from the public purse. Greyhound uses the Interstate and the airlines, via the 8% tax the passengers pay, use the air traffic control and airports.
So where does this leave us? David Gunn has had experience dealing with Congress when he ran the WMATA. And hopefully, some of the letters being written by those who see the idiocy of the move to shut down Amtrak will spark a few in Congress to begin to get off their asses and start doing something. However the sad fact is that David Gunn and Amtrak have no lobbying money behind them.
I've used Amtrak extensively over the past twenty years. The Broadway Limited was my preferred method of travel when the train had the slumbercoach and ran on the ex-PRR line through Fort Wayne. I've had the occasion to ride all the major routes except the Chicago - New Orleans train.
Recently however, out of necessity and the poor Amtrak service I've encountered in the past five years, I fly most of the time.
Jim K.
Chicago
I love how the article gives four paragraphs to Tom Schitz and his right-wing Citizens Against Goverment Waste, but nary a peep to any pro-rail groups. And who said yellow journalism was a lost art?
Sickening.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Tom Schitz
If there was ever a more fitting name for a person, I haven't heard it.
Shhh! Don't tell Railfan Pete
CAGW major sponsor list could very well be the airlines. Schatz is a walking airline advertisement.
No registration is required for the Albany, NY Times Union, story here:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyKey=85301&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=6/22/2002
A couple of week ago, there were numerous postings about a Subtalk trip over the Canarsie Line this coming Tuesday the 25th. I haven`t read anything about it lately. Is it still onç Should I plan for itç
Forgive me for sticking me two ç in. This is being typed on my home computer, where somebody`s been fooling around with the fonts. So every time I go for the question mark key, I get this ç instead!
Yes.
For anyone interested......There's a front page article in today's Newsday about a man who is retiring from the LIRR. His retirement marks the end of his family's 100 years of service on the LIRR. His father and grandfather both worked for the LIRR. There's also a timeline of some of the significent days of the LIRR throughout history. It has photos of the LIRR bringing soldiers to Mitchel Field, and a photo of a bar crowd in one of the LIRR's bar cars from the 70's.
Where do the Amtrak Trains go if Amtrak Shuts down??? Does US government take ownership of them????? NOT THE ACELA!!!!!!!! NOOOO!!!
No offense intended toward anyone, but:
Just how many threads do we need on this subject?
David
If Amtrak shuts down, it will be the only subject in here.
Just proves that posters here do not read what others say.
What I assume probably the MTA would take care of the rest of NY State. Who else would then service Albany Rochester and Buffalo.
It's been stated on a number of posts that most people haven't ridden or even heard of Amtrak. That may be true. But the cause of it is the Feds continuing efforts to try to make Amtrak a for-profit entity. When the places that Amtrak use to call home were cut from the schedules; that's when people stopped taking the trains. Not everything can turn a profit; just look at the drain the road system has on the American taxpayer. Amtrak should be given the funds it requires to become a viable and attractive alternate means of transportation for Americans as a whole. Just to give you an example; the airlines cried to the Administration that the catastrophies of Sept. 11th killed their projected profits and the government was more than happy to quietly write them a check. Where the hell does private industry come off using the taxpayers as a blank check. It's high time that passenger rail is given a high priority like western Europe. And the people in those countries like it and don't mind the additional taxes. I'm tired of Secretary Minetta forcing Amtrak to come begging with its hat in its hand for a few crumbs off the table. There was no way (way back when) Amtrak was ever going to become self-sufficient. And it won't happen today. I hope Gunn takes whatever initiatives are necessary to keep Amtrak rolling and not knuckle under to the McCane's and Minetta's like his predecessors. I'm sure there are thousands out there that agree with me and they're not all railfans. Thanks for the soapbox!
I took the 5:02 Trenton Express (always seems to crawl from Rahway to New Brunswick) home yesterday, and had a chance to ride a refurbished Comet II.
I think they did a pretty good job with them. The interior is very similiar to the Comet IV's and they have the same electric signs inside and out along with the same announcements. They blend in well with the newer Comet IV fleet as the black stripe is the same size.
They also offer a pretty good ride.
The only drawback is the lack of a center door which means you are adding to the load/unload times.
Actually, since there never was a center door on the Comet IIs to begin with, the load/unload times are still the same.
Actually, I doubt you'll be seeing much of them on the NEC. I'm pretty sure that once the Comet Vs come in, the Comet IIs will all be relegated to the Hoboken Division.
Today (Saturday), I got to ride one on a RVL train to Hoboken after enjoying the NCS extension.
Actully most of the comet V will be going to the Hoboken Division. The first batch will go to the Montclair connection, then the next batch will go to the Main/Bergen/Southern Tier and Pasckack Valley lines. The Raritan Valley and the Booton Line (Hacketstown - Hoboken)will have most the comet II's. Of course you'll see comet V's on the northeast corridor but not every train will be that. The will get the honor of operating the bilevels as well as some North Jersey Coast Line trains when they are built (And I hope it's no by Bombadier!).
Really? I thought they wouldn't, since it's kindof a waste of center doors to run the Comet Vs on the Main, Bergen, and Pascack lines. Unless they're planning on raising more platforms...
With the possibility of an Amtrak shutdown this week, I'm having to do some contingency planning for a trip which I will be taking beginning on Sunday, 30 June. My current plans - which, if the Amtrak situation is settled in time, I will still follow - are for Jr. and I to take train 41, the Three Rivers, from NYP on Sunday at 1215, arriving CHI on Monday at 0745, then changing for train 303, the Ann Rutledge, at 0915, arriving STL at 1455. The one-way fare in coach, with the discounts that are currently being offered, is about $100 for each of us, so I'd be spending about $200. (We'll be driving back in a vehicle that I own, so there's no return trip involved.) I absolutely will not fly, and a one-way rental car is also about $200, plus gas, tolls, and one night in a hotel en route. What other reasonable options are there?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's always the Dog. 7-day advance purchase fare from Port Authority to St. Louis is $69 per person. There's a bus that leaves at 12:45 PM on 6/30 and arrives at 12:40 PM the next day.
CG
There's always the Dog.
Bow-wow. I won't be able to take advantage of a seven day advance purchase since I won't know until two or three days beforehand if Amtrak is going to run, plus renting a car seems more reasonable to me from a sanity point of view. I'd have a lot better feeling that I was going to get there in one piece that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I hear you. I swore off The Dog after the "Seeing-Eye Dog Incident" in 1989. I won't go into details, but imagine 6 dogs on one bus that then gets stuck in a 3 hour traffic jam.
Have you checked all of the rental companies? You can often find some good discount codes on line. Also, check back with the actual rental locations (not the 800 numbers) about a day before you want to travel. They occasionally get cars dropped off that are supposed to be the property of another location. If you can get the car back closer to where it belongs, they'll frequently give you a very low price. (I paid $15 per day with unlimited mileage to take a Hertz car from Dallas to St. Louis a few years ago. The people in Dallas were just happy to get the car back towards Minneapolis where it belonged).
CG
CG
I've said this many times: AMTRAK WON'T SHUT DOWN, GUNN IS DOING THIS TO "THREATEN" CONGRESS FOR MORE MONEY. There is no way in HELL any congress scum would allow Amtrak removed from their state. They'll wait until the last minute to give the money, though.
And I, who has been watching the Amtrak saga since 1970, along with the pinch-penny cash coming from Washington for the last 32 years, agree whole-heartly with Rob. Already the Senate and House members from both sides of the political spectrum are lining up pro-ATK, with comments like "How did we get ourselves in this mess" and Why did we let this go on for so long". Governors from Mass to Virginia are bugging Shrub to fix it now and forever.
They'll wait until the last minute to give the money, though.
100% right - and they'll wait until the 10 1/2 hour to put it on Bush's desk - and he'll sign it right away and take the credit for all that was done on Capitol Hill.
I wouldn't wager on that - McCain, Dick Armey, Tom Delay and others have been itching for this for a long long time. They've even gone home for the weekend to make CERTAIN that they can't be annoyed. Shrub himself has also pretty much stated that if congress DOES do anything to halt this, he'll veto any such bill to rescue Amtrak. If we want to commute from hither to yon, we're going to have to talk to Hannibal about renting an Elephant ...
You mean that our president actually wants Amtrak to shut down? If he vetoes a bill to keep Amtrak running, he'll probably be the most hated President in American history!
- Lyle Goldman
Well, for a president that doesn't function by polls, Andy Card now has him saying he's all for Amtrak ... "provided that reforms are in place" ... we'll see what happens if part of that reform is no more choochoos for Crawford, TX ... :)
I hate to say it, since I am an Amtrak supporter, and do ride the long distance trains such as the Empire Builder. Indeed I plan to do so agan this fall, Amtrak Willing. Amtrak (or its successor) MUST be fully funded by its respective operating authorities on the same basis as any regional or commuter railroad, or as any highway or airport for that matter!
But Amtrak is a dead-end technology on a dead-end track, with the bumper blocks less that 500 yards away!
We must get past the 1800s technology that created the present rail system, a system that works well with freight, but has not worn well for passenger service in this brave new world of airplane and automobile.
I am AGAINST any kind of private ownerships. The only people bidding on such a loosing proposition as AMTK would be the sleezy Enrons of this world who make big corporations using smoke and mirrors, and downright fraudulent financing to bilk its putative customers.
No, Amtrak needs to be broken up and parceled out to the PROVEN operating authorities who are concerned with the stewardship of their state's and customer's needs and resources.
To this end, I have created a plan (big surprize, right?) that suggests what might be created in the service of a new nationwide high speed passenger rail service.
Elias
I am AGAINST any kind of private ownerships. The only people bidding on such a loosing proposition as AMTK would be the sleezy Enrons of this world who make big corporations using smoke and mirrors, and downright fraudulent financing to bilk its putative customers.
Amtrak is making more money today than pre 9/11 so I don't think it's a loosing proportion. And If Amtrak dies so many other rail systems would be crippled. Some beyond repair. See it's all within a chain reaction. If Amtrak goes, so does alot of other transit systems.
The most retarded quote of the year:
I am AGAINST any kind of private ownerships. The only people bidding on such a loosing proposition as AMTK would be the sleezy Enrons of this world who make big corporations using smoke and mirrors, and downright fraudulent financing to bilk its putative customers.
That's a completely stupid assumption. The stupid shit politicans do (in EVERYTHING, not just transport) make Enron look like a choir boy. If you think the gov't doesn't lie to you about money, I pity you. Rail transport COULD make money, however the gov't has no motavation to make a profit- they can know they can just tax everyone for the money they need.
If a private company ran Amtrak, they'd have to make a profit, otherwise they go bankrupt. They would upgrade all trackage to allow high speed (170+ mph) operation. There needs to be a single hub in every region in the US (NE, SE, Midwest, SW, West) which will focus on that region's rail needs. Trains can't compete with coast to coast travel, so they should stick to regional. That way they can compete with commuter air routes. Elias has a good idea.
I totally agree with Rob and Elias. Amtrak must go. Only when private companies have competition to deal with does service quality and speed improve. Amtrak must go.
Of course, Union Pacific and BNSF have been itching for Amtrak to get out of the way so that they can get back into the lucrative passenger rail business.
-- David
Chicago, IL
ROTFL, LOL they gave over on purpose all their passenger cars to Amtrak!
If we want a decent high speed system, current freight tracks can't handle high speed rail. Therefore, either we build brand new ROW or we upgrade the existing freight lines and add one or two tracks. The frieght companies don't have to run passenger rail, any other qualified company can do it. The extra tracks or higher speeds from upgrading should allow more traffic so freight and passenger wouldn't have to fight over who gets to go first.
I believe you had the idea of having four track mainlines owned by the gov't and rail companies reserve slots and pay fee for a certain time and track, similiar to a toll highway. Something like this could be very successful.
too bad you cannot be sent via time machine to experience Southern Pacific Automat cars(on EXTRA FARE trains no less), Penn Central disservice in general and various other examples of private enterprise on the rails--I rode many trains before ATK, and some were magical but some were awful. SP was so rider hostile that the ICC actually ordered them to improve service.
If some Richard Branso/Freddie Laker wannabe wants to run passenger trains he can do it now. American Orient Express started out as a scheduled premium service--riders failed to show up in sufficient numbers.
WRONG!!! Perhaps you could name a single rail passenger system, which 1. covers ALL costs including capital for ROW and equipment, 2, pays anything over 'min wage'.
As to politicians lying--you bet just like their corporate masters--and you are surprised because?
We NEED a national rail passenger network because coordination is necessary for interstate travel. You are I believe aware how much trouble NY and NJ have sorting out Port Authority monies--imagine this among 50 states.
As to the utility of "slow" long distance trains, given how second rate they are even compared to my youth in the 50's when they were uniformly faster and service was mostly pleasant, PEOPLE keep stepping up to the ATK counters with money to buy tickets. As a taxpayer, I am willing to spend OUR tax money on ATK. With a decent consistent budget, AND a better national transportation policy we could have a rail system to be proud of.
"We NEED a national rail passenger network because coordination is necessary for interstate travel."
I disagree somewhat. I see no reson why regional operating hubs cannot work. As AMTK operates now there is no unified or resonable method for making connections.
With my plan you would buy each segment separetly. Just like riding a train from Merrick to New Brunswick.
Each Regional operating authority sets up what schedules and routes that it needs and is willing to subsidise. At hubs there are connections to other lines. How is that different from Amtrak or the Air Lines. I Think that these hubs bring the same flexibility to the rail systems that it has brought to the airlines.
And I think that these lines should interface with air, as well as with each other.
as one whose own experience spans pre ATK times, I can assure you lack of coordination was wose then. In fact they otherwise prima facie dumb looking scheduling of eastbounds from Chicago is EXACTLY a response to connection problems from chronically late western routes. .
As to hub and spoke, we have that. The problem is more how to optimize for interim points as well as end points. (The easy answer is more runs per day--but that requires REAL BUDGETS. IIRC you live along the GN, and the timings for the Builder are not to your liking. If we still had the Western Star, life would be more convenient for you, as well as the poor s%^&s changing at Spokane in the wee hours). This logistical conundrum is not an issue of public v. private so much as which market to satisfy the most. Typicly you pick the greatest destination pairs to favor.
NONE of this will matter however if the whole thing is scrapped, and that is what the righ wing ozygen wastes have in mind. Entertainingly, Wm F Buckley Jr. a genuine Conservative (rather than simply corporate raiders masquerading) has recebtly written supporting subsidy for ATK.
REAL conservatives value passenger railroad and recognize its importance. What happens if some other event grounds the airlines for days? Are we all supposed to sit wherever we are with our thumbs up our posteriors until everything runs again? 9/11 and the days following SHOULD have been a lesson. Barry Goldwater also endorsed Amtrak ... and you're right ... it's the crooks that want it dead.
Amen!
What happens if some other event grounds the airlines for days?
Freight railroads suddenly have stowaways carrying luggage, children, strollers....
Wonder what CSX' haulage rates are for private varnish these days? I could make a KILLIN' ... :)
The Conservatives have, for many years, supported a rational, tax supported national rail system. Mr. Weyrich will attest to that.
www.trolleycar.org
A lot of the problem with Amtrak is the fact that the Interstate highway system over the past 45 years has decentralized many urban areas to the point that a single central city rail hub is inconvienent for where people want to go. It's the same problem that pretty much killed Trailways off as a national bus passenger carrier a dozen years ago, and left Greyhound lines on very shaky ground -- people who live 25-30 miles out in the suburbs don't want to have to bother with going downtown to catch a bus/train. And while the Northeast corridor handles enough service to make suburban inter-city rail stations viable, that's not the case in a lot of other places.
Also, Amtrak loses much of its money on the long-distance services, not the shorter runs in the Northeast corridor or the Midwest. Given the right deal, a private company might be able to run the Boston-Washington service at a profit, but no one's going to touch many other sections of the country without some big federal subsidy, which defeats part of the reason for eliminating Amtrak in the first place.
Amtrak could best be saved if it identified the viable regional corridors and focused its funding on them, while eliminating the very-unprofitable long distance lines unless the states those trains travel through agree to kick in supporting subsidies. While it's nice to have a nationwide service, and serving those less populated areas can mean extra votes for funding the system in the House and Senate, there's no reason why the New York area should have its rail service threatened just so the Podunk Limited can keep operarting through some Senator's state who's on the appropriations committee.
Amen! What you propose is beyond Amtrak, in my experience.
Woah slow down. I didn't type that I was only responding too statement Elias made, and for the record it isn't a retarded statement it is a person's opinion.
Woah slow down. I didn't type that I was only responding too statement Elias made, and for the record it isn't a retarded statement it is a person's opinion.
Forgive me, I was pissed off yesterday (something in REAL life, not here :-) ) and I took it out on you. My bad.
What about the wall street welfare queen (airlines). The airline industry, as a whole has been a net money loser sinca it's inception.and that's even with all the welfare checks (of course in most places around the world, any activity which is subsidized to that extent is GOVERNMENT OWNED and the airlines are getting more welfare checks from Bush. but I guess that's how the American Taxpayer likes it from the behind. Privatization is just libertatian snake oil. When railroads had a monopoly, they could make a profit, However, when other modes were developed, they made great use of the kind of infrastructure which only government can efficiently provide, this subsidy, coupled with the fact that railroads are not the best answer to all transportation needs and also that highway development spurred the kind of residential development whish is impossible to serve with any form of mass transit but is a VERY WASTEFUL use of resources means that our society needs to keep rail available as an option for the health of our cities as well as our nation. Unfortunately the surburban voting bloc is as perdictable as Tammany Hall was in the 1800s and worse yet it is dispersed throughout the nation meaning they get to elect more representatives per capita than concentrated urban residents who, unfortunately tend to vote less than their suburban counterparts meaning that the cancer of suburban sprawl will be a hard one to kill. (frankly, I think most southern and western politicians want to wall off our big cities ala "Escape From New York". Vote Vote Vote and make DAMNED sure that the party you vote for (individual politicians are meaningless) is not caucus dominated by representatives of high income suburban voters who don't give a damn about America's cities even though the cities are our future, all thet care about is low taxes and SUVs (Oh Yes and giving away tax dollars to private corporations who shouldn't get a RED CENT without transferring a commensurate equity position to the Government.
Right on!
Regional systems could be very popular, especially if they use modern equipment, like DMUs, that can accelerate and decellerate at high rates, allowing fast trips.
As far as running over 200mph, I doubt you'll ever see it, anywhere. The energy required to push a train through sea level air at 200mph is the limiting factor. It's just too expensive to get much over 200. even the Europeans have no real serious plans for it, and they lead the world in rail technology, period.
If you subject people to the cramped conditions and fares of an airline with the ride of a bus and a speed somewhere in between, but closer to the latter, people will just fly and save themselves the time and hassle. Better yet they'll just drive in their V-10 Ford Excessive that offers the room and speed of a train plus door to door service. Nobody in this country will ever ride a light weight euro-train. They tried it in the late 50's and early 60's and al lthose light-weight trains were a flop. People in europe are used to cramped conditions, small apprtments and cars that can be typically lifted by two people. People in this country are used to something better. If you try to stuff them into sardine cans and then charge an airline fare they will just go and take their SUV's.
trains go about 70 mph. Ford goes 55 mph. 5 mph on LIE
Right! Then we get to New Haven, where, for decades, the lights and AC went out without explanation for 30 years. Your Ford never did that.
Is that with the coaches on NHRR with the red stripe, no ADA door, not made by bomadier?
Ford goes 55 mph.
Obviously you've never ridden with my wife in her Mustang :-) (MY driving record, on the other hand, is clean!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Geeez mike. Nobody but the DVARP complains about Silverliners, m-1s or whatnot. It's damm easy to build a light, strong, large DMU. in any case, the passenger locomotive is on the way out. Nobody wants to pay 5 million dollars to lug around useless weight, get lower performanmce, and crap reliability. Unless you're pulling main trunk line stuff at 125mph and you already have the equipment, it's pointless to have a locomotive.
The market for passenger diesels in the industrialized world is tiny. The market for electrics is shrinking fast.
I predict within 15 years, nobody running a modern rail system (i.e., Europe, Japan), will be ordering passenger locomotives period. There's no point to them. They're heavy, slow, and a headache to deal with.
The passenger locomotive is dead. MUs won. Even the next generation HSTs are all going to be MU. The last locomotive hold out in the modern rail world is Talgo, but even that could change.
The unpowered passenger car is a thing of the past. That's just the way life is. Get used to it.
"The passenger locomotive is dead. MUs won. "
Yup.... Just tell *that* to NJT!
Elias
I've seen an article saying that Metro Norh in the future wold use push-pulls for new equipment instead o new MU's. Cheaper. Perhaps this has already happened or has gone by the wayside. Personally I still think MU's are the answer for rapid transit services including suburban.Worked great for a century already. I will make another post which might sretch to a passenger trainstopping at places like Richardton, ND, but unlikely it will ever happen
"trainstopping at places like Richardton, ND"
Trains *do* stop here once in a while, drop off a few grain cars, maybes some tanks or boxes. Not very regular though.
Coal Trains are plentiful but they do not stop. Passenger trains are non existant, and getting more scarse maybe.
Elias
>>I've seen an article saying that Metro North in the future would use push-pulls for new equipment instead of new MU's.<<
Metro North is getting new M-7 electric multiple unit coaches like the LIRR.
Bill "Newkirk"
You just now finding this out????? That information was on this board weeks ago.
Mr "Newkirk" was replying to our friend in North Dakota. Backup one and read what HE said.
oh ok
Well, the Harlem and Hudson lines are getting some M-7s. On the New Haven Line, the M2s are getting refurbished and repaired, which should allow for less "short" trains. These cars were breaking down all the time, but Metro-North is spending $$ to fix that. No new cars for New Haven until 2012. -Nick
OK the, is the CDOT considering new rolling stock for its lines?
I'm starting to get used to these threads now:
New Metro North equipment MUST DIE!!!
LIRR DM30's MUST DIE!!!!
Amtrak MUST DIE!!!!
The Astoria El MUST DIE!!!!
Each week we get a new one......
lol
Looks like the die is cast!
>>>
I've seen an article saying that Metro Norh in the future wold use push-pulls for new equipment instead o new MU's
>>>
I believe that equipment will be used on the West of Hudson service.
You know Jersey, if Bush tried to bail out Amtrack, you libs would be shouting at the top of your lungs about special privileges for big companies, but he is not and you guys are still complaining. Come on Mike, get with it with consistency. You can either be pissed off at him to saving or not saving Amtrack, but you shouldn't have it both ways.
You have obviously put a great deal of thought into this. Thank You for a most informative post.
Peace,
ANDEE
Knowing Gunn, this is what will happen:
* All MBTA commuter trains will have no crew
* All NJTransit trains will be waiting at junctions with the NEC
* NEC dispatching centers will be closed
* All Metrolink trains will not run, as LA Union Station will be bolted shut
* All Caltrain trains will have no crew
* Penn Station will be closed and locked
* Clockers will not run
* All equipment would be parked in their home yards
* MARC Penn Line trains will have no crew
* Washington Union Station will be closed and locked (thus no MARC or
VRE train will be able to terminate)
It would be like a general strike called by BLE or UTU, except it would be one ordered by the management.
I'm fully expecting Amtrak to continue operating beyond July 1. If Amtrak doesn't get funded, I am looking forward to the stoppage -- although one such stoppage may become the end of Amtrak as we know it, under one management. However, such stoppage will probably ensure the funding of passenger rail services in the U.S. for a long time after Amtrak.
AEM7
"I'm fully expecting Amtrak to continue operating beyond July 1. If Amtrak doesn't get funded, I am looking forward to the stoppage -- although one such stoppage may become the end of Amtrak as we know it, under one management. However, such stoppage will probably ensure the funding of passenger rail services in the U.S. for a long time after Amtrak. "
There! see we agree.
: ) Elias
Answer this:
Are you concerned that Amtrak would stop running because:
1. You are a railfan
2. You actually USE the rail passenger system.
I asked this question elsewhere, in a slightly different way, and about 3/4 of the responses were....the respondees haven't used a train in over two years!
I tend to ride Amtrak 4-5 times a year on average if you don't mind the butting in. About 10 neighbors ride it twice a week or more back and forth to the city (state workers) ... those of us who do care VERY much about what happens, at least to the Empire corridor runs ...
THIS IS WHAT I WILL LOSE IF WE LOSE AMTRAK:
I go NY to California every year on Amtrak (I fly back on United). I hope to be able to ride both ways when I have a longer vacation because, for me, the train ride is part of the vacation. It gives me the time that I need to slow down to the pace of the world outside of NYC. By the time that I get to my destination, I have mellowed. If the train is late, that's Amtrak's problem, they have to get me to where I'm going. I have my hotel reservations made where I'm going to stay, and people with whom I do stay know how to get the ETA of the train.
Using the various routes from East to West, I have visited Boston, Montreal, Atlanta, New Orleans and some of its suburbs, San Antonio, El Paso, Chicago, Seattle, Yakima (there were two trains across the Northern route), Portland, OR, Denver, San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego. Places that I would not have visited if I were traveling some other way.
I round trip it to Toronto yearly; I have round tripped to White River Junction on an infrequent basis.
I used to take the Night Owl (using the NY - Washington sleeper) because I could go to sleep at a reasonable hour in NY and wake up in Washington, do the city in one day and be home in NY, by coach, the next evening - all for about $120. That sleeper was a well kept secret (fortunately for me, it was always availble, even with a last minute reservation; unfortunately not enough people rode it because they didn't know about it).
Over the years, I have written to Amtrak about various improvements - showers, no smoking on the trains. I have criticized and I have praised Amtrak. Most of the staff on the trains are really people/passenger oriented and add to the enjoyment of the trip. The dining car crews are really great. The car attendants go out of their way to make the journey pleasant.
I, for one, am of the opinion that we cannot appreciate the size, variety and beauty of this country and of its people without taking a transcontinental train. Remember, the ride itself is part of the vacation! Enjoy it!
I've done shorter trips (NYC, CHI, BOS, DC, CLE, Montreal) but couldn't agree more - the train IS the mellowing factor and I've NEVER had a bad ride. Delayed yes, but never an unhappy trip. For those of us upstate though, it's more than a ride, it's the ONLY ride. I won't fly trans-dogpatch and I won't ride a bus. If Amtrak DOES fold, then if I really need to get there, I'll drive. And I'm a MENACE on the road. That alone is reason enough to keep the choochoos running. :)
Obviously, I am writing from the point of view of a big city dweller. I did not mean to overlook all of the towns and cities along the way that would face the situation that you describe - namely Amtrak is the only ride.
A small city that I visited because it was a servicing stop on the Empire Builder was Minot, ND. It has a really great downtown by the train station. There was plenty to see - not enough time even!! I can say the same for Albuquerque, NM - the train has a long service stop and I had a chance to walk through their downtown, too.
I take advantage of the servicing stops to walk around the area near the station and for the most part it has been very informative and enjoyable.
Living in NYC, I don't get the chance to walk through smaller parts of our country very often.
That's precisely why those of us out in the boonies care so much about Amtrak - it really IS the only game in town for a lot of places. And if Amtrak goes belly up, so will a lot of the jobs in this area as well. While we DO have an (ahem) "airport" here, most commuting is done by train. While I have no doubts the state will end up doing SOMETHING about OUR little piece of the puzzle if Amtrak croaks, I'd MUCh rather have Amtrak since it goes to other places outside New York State. I can't CONCEIVE of going to Boston or Chicago any other way.
For us it'd LITERALLY be like closing the subway. For good. It matters THAT much to us out here ...
"on the Empire Builder was Minot, ND."
And *that* is where I get on the train. It's only a three hour drive from my home. I drive an old farm junker up there, park it by the station for two weeks. It will be there when I get back.
Elias
I, for one, am of the opinion that we cannot appreciate the size, variety and beauty of this country and of its people without taking a transcontinental train.
Well said! But as well as Trans-continental express service, there needs to be good local service for every inhabited area from sea to sea!
Local service and Trans-continental service needs to be coordinated. The problem with some areas getting local rail service is that there might not enough of a critical mass to call for it. Good local service works around the larger metropolitan areas. I think it might be difficult to set up out in the boonies. Of course, local service could also include bus service to central transit stations, ala the San Joaquin Valley in California.
Local service and Trans-continental service needs to be coordinated. The problem with some areas getting local rail service is that there might not enough of a critical mass to call for it. Good local service works around the larger metropolitan areas. I think it might be difficult to set up out in the boonies. Of course, local service could also include bus service to central transit stations, ala the San Joaquin Valley in California.
Buses? Not if a trolley's viable!
Trolleys? Not if a real railroad's viable!
I am in favor of light and heavy rail. That said, I think that there are times when trolleys, subways and trains are not viable. I am sure that someone on this site can provide figures that indicate the requirements for the viability of light rail over busses especially in the lightly populated areas of the country.
In the big cities, put in light rail and/or subways. The riding public should not be held hostage by the automoble. Light rail vehicles/trolleys control the traffic. Busses lose that control once they pull over to the curb.
More than twenty-five years ago, I spoke with someone at the Toronto Transit Commission and they told me that "the last time that the Bay Street line ran on time was the last day that the trolley cars ran. Busses are controlled by the traffic."
Can you believe - some people in Toronto are talking about getting rid of their trolley system! That system is one of the things that make it such a livable city.
That said, I think that there are times when trolleys, subways and trains are not viable. I am sure that someone on this site can provide figures that indicate the requirements for the viability of light rail over busses especially in the lightly populated areas of the country.
I know that in NYC the average cost of a bus ride is about $1.61 and a subway ride about $1.20 - light rail is meant to be cheaper than a proper subway.
In the big cities, put in light rail and/or subways. The riding public should not be held hostage by the automoble. Light rail vehicles/trolleys control the traffic. Busses lose that control once they pull over to the curb.
Sounds very left-wing, but also very true!
Can you believe - some people in Toronto are talking about getting rid of their trolley system! That system is one of the things that make it such a livable city.
I can believe it - it's the same silly mistake about half the cities on earth have made for the last 50 years.
I know that in NYC the average cost of a bus ride is about $1.61 and a subway ride about $1.20 - light rail is meant to be cheaper than a proper subway.
Does this $1.20 include the over all cost of building the subway in the first place?
Most of the time the streets are already in place. I don't know how to apportion the cost ($1.61) in this case.
In my own neighborhood in The Bronx, some of the streets are rather narrow (although they did have trolleys until 1948). It would be great to have light rail, but in order to provide parking and loading and unloading zones, the streets would have to be widened because the new light rail vehicles seem to be so large, which gives less space for pedestrians on the sidewalk.
Traffic has become such a problem because The Cross Bronx Expressway is backed up most of the day due to traffic pattern changes as a result of the atrocity (IT IS NOT A TRAGEDY) of September 11 and so the overflow comes on to Tremont Avenue. Of course, (and here you will see my contradiction) the busses are making it through, but ever sooooo slooowly. (Remember the light rail or trolley car controls the traffic). In order to get across to the East Bronx I have to drive up to Moshulo Parkway or GunHill Road in the North Bronx so that I can by-pass traffic on 180th St., Fordham Road/Pelham Parkway and what few other thru cross Bronx streets there are.
I am going to have to go by subway - going down to 125th St. and then going up on the #6. One thing is for sure it is less aggravating.
the atrocity (IT IS NOT A TRAGEDY) of September 11
Amen! A tragedy would be if a pilot had a heart attack and crashed his plane into a building. Murder does not a tragedy make. I refer to it simply as "The Massacre."
I agree. Or as one of our radio commentators has called them, "Homicide Bombers." Anything but Trajedy. That word makes it sound like an oops. That it certainly is not!
Homicide bomber is the stupidest phrase ever invented. Any person who bombs is committing homicide. Suicide bomber actually tells you something about the method of ignition.
I'll try to cut down on the superlatives.
USA uses smart bombs....
They use "Not so Smart Bombs"
To bad anybody gotta use any bombs at all.
Elias
The world needs a common enemy.
I think we need to build a race of robots and abuse them.
"I think we need to build a race of robots and abuse them. "
Problem is, they'd probably win!
Wonder what the courts would say about Robot's Rights!
Will, at least they will not need a prescription drug plan!
Eliaa
No, they'll require a SERVICE CONTRACT ... and man oh man, it'll make a Blue Cross bill look like a carnival ride. :)
for the record
March ATK Emeryville- Eugene, Eugene PDX in March both to visit friends and then a two day steam excursiom, then PDX-Eugene, ATK bus to Ashland more visit, K Falls Emeryville
May/June Oakland-Ventura to visit friends the to LA then LA back to Oakland.
Well, I travel on Amtrak's Silver Service three or four round trips a year (NYP-RMT), and several more trips Newark to DC. And if this threatened shutdown doesn't happen Jr. and I will be riding to St. Louis next Sunday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Answer this:
Are you concerned that Amtrak would stop running because:
I'm not concerned. Life will go on, the NEC will go on, commuter rail will go on, people will take a long, hard look at what rail services we need as opposed to what rail services looked romantic in the advertising flyers...
1. You are a railfan
I may be, perhaps. I'm more of a rail advocate who's sick of the US being stuck with an obsolete, 1800's vintage, rail system.
2. You actually USE the rail passenger system.
I haven't used it in 2 years, and frankly, with the level of service I got last time, don't care to use it ever again. I'm fed up with being late, being in overheated cars, surly personel, poor ride quiality, and general unreliability, and slow speeds.
My consistent experience with Amtrak has been generally very good service (much better than airline service on the NEC and much better in comfort and value for leisure on long-distance) and have not, in general, encountered what you have encountered. Maybe you're just unlucky.
I travel very frequently on Amtrak. Surely crews on Amtrak are quite rare, especially on long-distance trains. They've gone overboard in many cases (both NEC and long-distance) to be helpful to me.
I have friends who have traveled and then bitched and moaned about Amtrak. But these same friends, I've noticed, are generally difficult to please, and have bitched and moaned about every trip they ever took except when they drove themselves. Airplane? The attendants were idiots, there was no leg room, the restroom was impossible to use, and the food was terrible (and such small portions!) regardless of which airline. Some people just can't travel except by themselves.
It's clear that you've never liked any aspect of Amtrak, ever. Is it Amtrak, or are you the atypical passenger who is very difficult to please?
Same here, Ron ... I've NEVER had an unpleasant ride on the pointless arrow. Sure I've run into delays here and there (host railroad, west of Smallbany) but the crews have ALWAYS been nice, friendly and the ride has always been pleasant. Maybe Unca Phil got booked aboard the "Bizarro Amtrak" ... :)
Phil was probably severely traumatized by an Amtrak train as a small child.
Yes, I actually have USED Amtrak. The "unused, obsolete" long-distance trains, and for business trips no less!
"I asked this question elsewhere, in a slightly different way, and about 3/4 of the responses were....the respondees haven't used a train in over two years!"
Amtrak is perpetually starved of funding -- its appropriation would be swallowed by that recieved by large transit authorities, the construction or expansion of individual airports, or individual Federal highway projects. Without adequate funding, it is very short of operable train cars. It therefore operates a skeletal system of trains outside of (1) the NEC and (2) states willing to pay big $$$ for additional train service. Is it therefore surprising that 3/4ths of the people polled hadn't rode Amtrak?
The question is whether what is going on here is "regional" or "ideological."
If it is "ideological" then funding will be put in place, along with a proposal for an "orderly liquidation" if the "conservatives" win or more money for a national system if "liberals" win. In the former case, the states will take over the ROW and stations, but the federal government will fund it, just as it does with highways. The feds will continue running trains for a while, but try to get private operators interested.
I suspect, however, that what is happening is "regional," an attempt to ripoff certain parts of the country even more by cutting their share of the national transportation pie even further. In that case, the commuter rail shutdown would be a way to blackmail certain parts of the country into either paying more for AMTRAK out of state budgets , go along with continuing big cross-subsidies for long distance trains, or both.
Along with the ripped off residents of the Northeast, the West Coast, and Illinois, the big political loser in that case would be -- W. Unlike his collegues in Congress, he actually needs to win some of those states to be re-elected. This is the last thing he needs.
Most rational people hope he FAILS
Given the guberatorial election situation in several transit-itnesive states (New York, Masachusetts and Illinois being the main ones), it's hard to see this thing going on very long before state Republicans would be screaming at the White House to do something.
Honestly, both sides do need to get together and come up with some new system that will be more than just a "Lets fund Amtrak for two more years and then go through this same BS is 2004." Gunn should be given some decent time interval to make it work, but unless states with limited population bases are willing to up their share of support to keep marginal (and mostly long distance) lines going, there's no reason why major urban corridors where rail trainsit is viable should see their lines threatened because Amtrak can't cover huge losses on the Sunset Limited or other cross-country/long-distance regional trains.
1. The long distance trains book out. Thus it is clear they are used.
2. The actual subsidy numbers are as always squishy. Do you know how the bean counters apportion the cost of the national 800 # and several reservation centers to each ticket sold? Do they for instance credit the LA res center when I call from Oakland CA to book NY-DC trips? Do they count a sale for that trip through a Bay Area travel agent as "intercity" because that division has offices here? Or do they decide that ticket had no relation to the non NEC segments of the operation?
3. As to low density states not paying their share why should ATK be any different? A study reported in the NYT circa 1 Jan 2001 pointed out that most rural/ex Confederate states get back much more Federal "aid" than they generate in taxes and despite the BS about gov't waste etc. happily voted for the tax the workers spend for the corporations Republicans.
On a personal basis, I would love to see the long-distance service continue. But the problem with the long distance trains -- especially in the western states -- is the distance between major popoulation areas, which is where the money from ridership comes from. Between 75 miles in from the California coast and the 100th meridian there are lots of stretches where Amtrak trains run with few boarding (paying) passengers. Compare that with the Northeast corridor, where 60 miles between major stops is unique. More stops, more boarding passengers and more turnover in passengers on the same train = more money.
Also, Amtrak (and Greyhound for that matter) has to deal with different urban layouts today than the railroads did 50 years ago; many cities have grown up second "downtowns" based around their interstate loops (in the northeastm Tyson's Corner, Va. is a prime example) that are served by roads, but not by rail. That means, for example, that even if Amtrak ever did figure out how to get a direct Los Angeles-Phoenix service established (as opposed to the zig-zag route they have now), you'd be hard-press to get people in spots like Glendale (either the California or the Arizona suburb, take you pick) to get down to the station because the way their metro areas have been laid out, it's too much of a pain the butt.
As for the states paying their share, this is the perfect opportunity to say "put up or shut up" to the Senators and Congressmen in those states who got their routes in exhange for voting "yes" on the limited funding subsidies in the past. You want to keep your Amtrak service but don't want to up the subsidies? Tell your governor and state legislature to cough up the money, because what funding their is will be spent on the lines that get the heaviest usage, which would be the costal routes and the Midwestern routes (as I said in another post, Amtrak did just this back in 1998 with the Texas Eagle, which runs from Chicago to San Antonio. They told Bush and the legilsature to ante up the extra money, or we'll cut it back to a Chicago-St. Louis route and rename it. Thanks to a push from Sen. Hutchison, the state did find the money and the line is still running -- at least for the next few days).
I don't think you quite get it if you're blaming GUNN for this - as a chief executive officer of an operation, he's under the legal requirements of "fiduciary responsibility" here. If Amtrak has no MONEY, he is legally required to do what he is doing since any corporation cannot spend money that it doesn't have without crossing the line into criminal behavior and criminal responsibility for fraud.
Please put the blame where it BELONGS ... political ideologues who have starved the system to death. Gunn is doing the right thing. He went over the books, realized that Amtrak was broke and is trying to find out if he can get funding or must shut it down. Gunn is the ONE player in all this who is doing everything by the book and by the LAW. He genuinely has no choice.
Selkirk -- I guess, again, there are mis-communications in my post. I don't blame Gunn. I just think that he is one hell of a daredevil -- and if his track record is anything to go by, he will win and Amtrak will win.
Like I said, I look forward to the shutdown (even though it might not happen). People out there needs to realize how much work Amtrak actually does, and why $1.5 billion per year is not much to pay for such a wonderful service.
AEM7
Amen, and THANKS for your effort with that letter as well. Our critters are already sold on keeping the system running (it's all we've got) and your thoughts also have been forwarded (just sent it off) in hopes that some "smarts" turn up among our politicos. Don't mind me if I gagged on that last sentence ... :)
And I don't think $2.5B is such a bad amount either, given what other sectors receive in pork annually for far less benefit.
Either that, or the pro-airline advocates will try and convince people that air travel would be the best alternative, only to find that airports will be maxed out with the additional traffic (not to mention the local transit systems in getting people there), and that nightmares will ensue with many airports not able to meet security demands.
This transit nonsense must stop! What is it going to take for the bigwhigs to realize that a nation works best with a well-integrated mass transporation network? A system-wide shutdown that will bury the economy in ways that no one can imagine?
War always revives the economy when the war isn't on your land. Look at WWII and the depresion.
It's not so much as "La Union Station will bebolted shut" but rather there will be no crews for the Metrolink trains.
LA Union Station is owned by Catellus Corporation, which was the realty arm of the Santa Fe Railway before the BNSF merger. They have separated from the railways.
The reason Metroolink would be shut down is...Amtrak is the contractor providing crews and dispatchers for the trains. Bombardier has the rolling stock maintenance contract, and Herzog Rail Services does much of Metrolink's track maintenance on the lines they own; the UP and BNSF maintain their own tracks on which some Metrolink lines operate.
Damn, if Penn Station shuts down, I'm guessing the NYC Subway will have to bypass or close exits that lead to Penn Station. I hope Congressmen will cough up the cash and I hope they will give them a little more so that they can get back on their own two feet.
I wonder if the Train yards will have enough capacity to fit all those trains.
I know when Amtrak shuts down, the LIRR won't be able to gain access to Manhattan (Penn Station), Are there tracks on the LIRR that lead to Grand Central Station??
the tracks to gct are in the process of being made
Now do they have Tracks that will lead NJT Trains to Grand Central??
"Now do they have Tracks that will lead NJT Trains to Grand Central??"
Nope. Never have.... Never Will!
Which is to say the only way they could cross the Hudson River to get to those tracks would be by way of ALBANY!
Physically, a locomotive could go through the tunnels to NYP, and then go back north on the West Side Line to the Bronx, and then follow the old NYC mainline down to GCT....
But.... Diesels are not allowed in NYP, and I wonder how many different kinds of powere would be needed to make such a move.
NJT would need to use the pans into pen, overriding shoes to the north (If West Side Line even has 3rd Rails at all???) then underiding shoes to the south again..... But of course, all of this needs the cooperation of Amtrak.
It could also happen that and NJT train could go to sunnyside yard (they *do* layup there all the time) then across the Hellgate bridge to MNRR's New Haven Line, and then bact to GCT that way, but they would still need to change their shoes, and would need the cooperation of Amtrak.
So!
To make a short answer very long: NO THEY CN'T DO IT!
Elias
"I'm guessing the NYC Subway will have to bypass or close exits that lead to Penn Station."
Nope! They are entirely different systems... The Subways have stops at 34th Street, they do not go into Penn Station.
"Are there tracks on the LIRR that lead to Grand Central Station??"
Nope! They are building some now from Sunnyside to GCT, and they *should* have been built 25 years ago, but were not. Besides....
THEY WOULD BE CLOSED TOO! Because trains would still have go pass through Harold Interlockin (and Sunnyside Yard) which *is* owned and operated by AMTRAK!
Elias
I was thinking same thing about NYC to Chicago in 4 hours. We're looking at the next NEC.
Thank you for your most thoughtful analysis of restructuring what used to be Amtrak. As a person who has made several hundred Amtrak trips, I am disgusted with the organization. Only a dense railfan like myself would have voluntarily subjected one's self to such inefficient, plainly incompetent, and absolutly incomprehensible situations time after time. Yes, it must die! Amen!
Your proposal brings fresh and worthy light to creating a viable national railroad system THAT MIGHT HAPPEN TO KNOW THAT PASSENGERS ARE CUSTOMERS. Go with it, and know that member of my family is also a member of the United States Senate. Your proposal will be sent on to Mike Crapo. Again, thank you for your thoughtfulness.
While riding back and forth, on the 4 train, from working at the Transit Museums Bus Festival today I was on R-62s w/ black floors in both directions. I thought this beating the odds. How many R62s have black floors?
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe most (if not all) floors of the R-62 on the #4 have now been replaced. -Nick
Oh, that would explain it...I hadn't been on a 4 train in over a year.
Peace,
ANDEE
With the useage the R-62s get day in and day out, I wonder how Moshulu managed to pull off replacing the floors on nearly 300 cars before people noticed the difference.
I realize you love the railfan window, and many other subtalkers (myself included) do too. But since you seem to be the biggest fan of this, have you thought about it from a T/O's perspective? I don't work for the MTA (at least not yet), but if I did, I think I would prefer a nice wide space instead of a little closet for my 8-10 hour shift.
Stop....You're making too much sense. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
LOL!!! :-) -Nick
your opinion ..........
Do you every stretch enough to take advantage of all that space?
I do. You won't find me doing sit-ups and push-ups, but I'll get up and move around, or peek out the window at TSQ or GC. You don't know how important the transverse cab is to a T/O. The reactions of some T/O's when finding out they have a redbird instead of an R-62 or R-142 are sometimes funny.
I think most T/O's and C/R's are looking forward to the Redbird's extinction. I saw one C/R today who told me he can't wait till all the birds are gone.
He said when it's crowded and he has to switch cars to assume the other position, sometimes it is hard to get into the next car because of standing people blocking the conductor cabs.
As a rider, even though I like the RF window, when it's hot like this the Redbird A/C (especially on the 7) is practically non-existant, leading to a very sweaty trip.
Also I don't think T/O's and C/R's have A/C in their Redbird cabs.
Even though I'll miss them, I'm glad to see silver R62A's on the 7 line. Keep 'em coming!
Some C/R's are going to miss the redbirds. A few have told me that they get "a lot of loving" on the redbirds. In other words, they get telephone numbers from women, by being more visible to the public.
LOL!!!
Seriously, I think the public is losing out with C/R's who stay locked up in their cabs. At the very least, C/R's in transverse cabs should be required to keep their doors propped open. (The current rule is just the opposite: they're required to keep their doors closed, while the C/R's who already have to cross back and forth between cars are required to keep their doors open, as if that makes a difference.)
I don't think they would want to keep their doors open because of safety reasons.
If I want to kill you, I can go down to the plumbing store and get a can of acetleyne and a nice 35 lb sledge hammer. You plastic windows that is in the door to the cab can be easily kicked out. Look at 179st manhatten bound express track, west end of platform and you will see a kicked out window from a R-46.
A transverse cab is useless it I can get in. Also the windows opening is so big that I can clim through if I kick it out, unlike the R-62s.
If I want to kill you, I can go down to the plumbing store and get a can of acetleyne and a nice 35 lb sledge hammer. You plastic windows that is in the door to the cab can be easily be melted (if thats your style:-) or be kicked out (when you don't care about the quality of your job). Look at 179st manhatten bound express track, west end of platform and you will see a kicked out window from a R-46.
A transverse cab is useless it I can get in. Also the windows opening is so big that I can clim through if I kick it out, unlike the R-62s.
You can keep the door closed on transverse cabs because the cab doors have windows; equipment without transverse cabs have no cab door windows and must be kept open so that the C/R can be seen.
But you know as well as I do how useful those windows are. If the C/R happens to be in the middle of his cab, I can see a blob. If he's on either side, I see nothing.
Except on R-62's and R-62A's. But what about the R-62A's without transverse cabs? They also have windows.
And -- correct me if I'm wrong -- I thought the rule was that a C/R's transverse cab door was always supposed to be kept closed.
But what about the R-62A's without transverse cabs?
They are exempt from the keep open rule. Have you ever seen a C/R try to prop one open? One on the 7 who apparently didn't know about the exemption gave up by 111st!
I can only think of one time I've seen a C/R deliberately keep his cab door open at all times. (Maybe that's because my home line is the 1.) The rule seems to be very frequently violated.
The rule for the 62a is to keep 'em closed. There is no easy way to keep them open, other then by asking the passenger sitting in the seat behind the cab to hold it.
In stations, C/Rs are allowed to close the cab doors, I think to prevent feedback when talking on the PA or to keep passengers (who like to poke and prod until they get noticed) from destracting the conductor while his head is out the window.
In tranverse cabs it's very easy to prop the door open, with the magic yellow slipper. I often see this in the summer, I gather the A/C in the cabs is frequently non-functional?
No, I'm saying that, IME, I almost never see the cab door open, even on (say) R-32's, even between stations, except while the C/R is moving between cabs.
Hah, be a T/O between 1973 and 1985. If you don't keep the door (if you had one) closed you will get a heat stroke and die because the window is jamed/broken shut (probuly the latter)
The R62a cab door can stay open by itself. No need for a customer to hold the door.
On a half width cab? How?? I mean, it can't open inward and there's nothing to keep it from flailing about while the train moves.
Yes there is. There is a prong inside the cab that allows the cab door to stay open. I only use it to get air.
There is a rod that folds out!
Really? Cool! I stand corrected.
On the No.1 line which is now my home as well the Cab doors are suppose to be closed because the No.1 runs R62A's. Even on a R62A single the door must be closed because it blocks the storm doors unlike the redbirds. Sometimes if the crowd is light I'll keep the door open to get some air.
The **ckers at Bombadier/Kawasaki always made **rp. Back then and now. Why does the door open in the wrong direction?
So that they'd be easy to convert to transverse cabs, I'd imagine.
No need to imagine. The cabs were designed from the start to be easily convertible.
Well I know that, I'm the one who posted the general process for converting it as one of my first posts here. But bml is implying that it's a design defect for the cab doors to swing in the 'opposite' direction.
You do it with a clamp (R-32s) or there is a thing that comes out and keeps the door proped open on the R-62s. Today a saw a T/O do that on the 7 line.
thats what i was told by a operator i think his name was mr allen ..
#5 train redbird !!
He said when it's crowded and he has to switch cars to assume the other position, sometimes it is hard to get into the next car because of standing people blocking the conductor cabs.
It is actually harder for a conductor to switch cars on R62s. The cab door swings outward into the passenger compartment. R26/36 cars open both inward and outward. Conductors are required to make themselves visible to the riding public, so their doors are open in if they are working to rule.
Conductors working on equipment with transverse cabs are allowed, by rule, to remain in the cab, with all cab lights lit.
Got you! nah I already littered this board with a extra 2000 messages this month. I hope I'am not driving Dave to the poor house.
U see Y cant U have both ??
how do they do it in philly ??? ...........hmmmmmmm......
how long did you say your shift was ???.. & do do get out of your
cab at the end of the line right ??? ......!
I heard a rumor that by the end of the end,there would be new weekend V train & terminating the evening,night & weekend G trains back to Court Sq.
Is this true.
Also, the other rumor I heard is that the G train would be extended to Church Av in 2003 when enough R143 cars are in service.
Is that rue also.
"I heard a rumor that by the end of the end,there would be new weekend V train & terminating the evening,night & weekend G trains back to Court Sq."
I don't see why that would be necessary. But if it's true, Greenpoint and other G line Residents will be mad!!
"Also, the other rumor I heard is that the G train would be extended to Church Av in 2003 when enough R143 cars are in service."
That doesn't make sense to me. The R143 is for the L line, with any "leftovers" going to the J/M lines. The old fleet on the L line is being retired, not being transferred to the G Line. -Nick
No, the old fleet on the L is not being retired -- it's being sent to Coney Island. Coney Island is, in turn, sending some of its R-32's and R-68's to other yards.
The purpose of the R-143 acquisition is fleet expansion. You may be thinking of the R-160 order.
I have been telling you guys for months that that is BS and it is.
They stopped qualifying TOs on the 44s. There is almost some equipment retiring for sure in the works.
Since the R-44's are only used on the A and the Rockaway shuttle, is it possible that only T/O's on those lines are being qualified on them? I'd be surprised if, given the car shortage that we all know about, the R-143's are displacing the entire R-44 fleet. I'd also be surprised (though not saddened) if the R-44's are first in line to be disposed of; aren't the R-40M's, R-40's, and R-38's in worse condition?
I don't know what you've been telling us for months (I've probably just missed your other posts on the topic), but this is the first I've heard of this from anyone who isn't just making a wild guess.
We'll see what happens.
The problem is that Yard jobs get held off the picks for people that are medically restricted. If the job is open these jobs either go to work train XL guys that did not pick a job or more often probational employees. I picked up a job recently very late from the board not because I was the only one available but because there was no one else on the board nearby that was 44 qualified. With the new pick sysytem which the Union is grieving this might be less of a problem but it does seem strange to do things this way. The new TO's will not be able to operate 44's on the road, pick up switching jobs on the A or yard jobs in Rck Prk, 207 and Pitkin.
It just seems like it is either very short sighted, a scam by the A to rid themselves of probationary employees, or that some cars will be retired here and there. I never thought that they would replace a class of cars just cars here and there that are very messed up.
But if even some R-44's remain, shouldn't new T/O's be qualified on them? It does sound plausible from what you say that the entire R-44 fleet is history, although I still doubt it.
No not the whole lot of them but at least a few. The 160's will not be here for years so it seems like a bold move unless they know something. There is a point where they don't bother like I am not hostler qualified even though there is one car set floating around.
OTOH it could be a bean counters way to shave a week off of school car for B Div TO's and A to B transfers. If switching jobs go back to being reserved it will be a mess for the crew office to find qualified operators.
It was also suggested that there were more incidents involving 44's that never made it out of the yard and this was the TA's way of making the job more idiot proof.
This is possible. Some of the worst cars which are now held together with duct tape may see the scrap heap before their fleet is "officially" retired.
It has already been established that no cars will be replaced by the R143's. When the R160's show up (in the distant future, in 7-10 years), then some cars will go, but these have already been identified as the R38 and R40 slants. The R44's aren't going anywhere for the forseeable future.
BTW, the R44 is limited to one line, and perhaps there are plenty of R44 qualified TO's on the payroll.
The R143 are not replacing anything yet. The R40-42's are going to be transfered to other lines. That doesn't measn that the R42's will be going to the G line though. The G may get the extra trains, from whatever line gets the R40-42's. You are right though, the R143's will not be going to the G, and the R40-42's probably won't be either.
Only when the R160's come that the first cars will be served their "death sentence"
>>>Only when the R160's come that the first cars will be served their "death sentence"<<<<<
Just like those poor suffering redbird! When the R160 sets in, R32 38 40S and 42 will join redbirds in heaven. :(
It's been posted here many times before, including by those that have first-hand knowledge. The R32s are not among those that will be retired upon arrival of the R160s, unless the R160 order is expanded to include a considerably larger of units.
unless the R160 order is expanded to include a considerably larger of units.
Enough to also swallow the R-44s, since the R-32s will probably outlive them (if the MTA has any sense!).
As a regular contributor here, you should know that nothing is being retired with the R143 order. While existing equipment will be shuffled around, no cars will be retired till the R160 order comes in. And the R160 contract has not been signed yet.
Yes, I am a regular contributor here, but for some reason I was not aware that the R143s were only for fleet expansion. I pick up on lots of transit-related items, but occasionally I'll get mixed up..it's called being human. :-) -Nick
I think u should call MTA, Because none of this is true
>>I heard is that the G train would be extended to Church Av in 2003 when enough R143 cars are in service.<<<
I don't see how G train extension to Church Av has anything to do with L getting R143.
>>>terminating the evening,night & weekend G trains back to Court Sq.<<<
I don't think thats gonna happen. TA has already made an agreement with the Greenpoint people to keep G in QB.
Whoever brought this up must be mistaken.
'Busfan' likes to post things he makes up as 'rumors he heard'. Additionally, he'll repost as 'rumor' what someone else posts as opinion. A lot of the folks on BusTalk have killfiled him.
-Hank
Well if you believe the poster that went to the public meeting a few months ago yes and no.
The V will eventually go to weekends and that will mean G's to Ct Sq during the day on weekends. Other service expansions were touched on and the answer was preety much no unless many more people start riding.
Interesting. That implies the V is more Valuable than the folks in Greenpoint would like to admit...either that or they are not riding the G enough.
Between the ad campaign and the bus strike the V is starting to fill up. The G to Continental was never a real concession, the TA steamrollers the Union with it's plans why would people here think they would do any different to others. I have previous noted that the Queens Blvd lines have more affluent and politically sophisticated riders, plus more riders in general.
I don't know if they would keep the G to CTL for the overnights but either way 24/7 OPTO on the G is almost inevitable.
"I have previous noted that the Queens Blvd lines have more affluent and politically sophisticated riders, plus more riders in general. "
It's sheer numbers. 900,000+ a day (and getting bigger) is reason enough by itself. The affluence effect, if any, gets lost in it.
Without the V, there's no direct connection between the 6th Avenue line and the northbound 6. A lot of people have to take the D to the E instead -- quite possibly more than take advantage of the direct G service to Continental on weekends (and, no, the easier transfer at Queens Plaza doesn't count for much -- the Court Square transfer isn't bad).
I agree with you on the transfer issue. Court Sq has gotten better with the installation of the moving sidewalk and in the longer term more physical amenities are on the way.
I don't think it matters. Court Square wasn't a bad transfer even without the moving walkways. I can think of nine worse transfer points in Manhattan alone, and none have moving walkways.
You have a higher tolerance for inconvenience (that's a relative term) than many other riders. I applaud you for it, but the moving sidewalk at Court Sq, plus additional work down the road which will bring that station and its neighbors, into ADA compliance and increase its comfort, can make a huge difference to most riders (who unfortunately do not share your attitude). The positive effect is part psychological. The fact that other transfers in the system are worse are not relevant to this discussion's context because those other transfers are not in the political spotlight.
Sorry.. should have said "is not relevant" - sorry for my incorrect use of grammar.
My own tolerance is irrelevant. My point is that the subway system overall assumes a certain tolerance, and the Court Square transfer is well within it. It's great that there's a moving walkway to help people out, but I wonder why it wasn't installed instead in a much longer and busier walkway like the ones under 41st Street and 14th Street in Manhattan.
"It's great that there's a moving walkway to help people out, but I wonder why it wasn't installed instead in a much longer and busier walkway like the ones under 41st Street and 14th Street in Manhattan."
Probably because people aren't screaming and stomping up and down asking for it. The amenities at Court Sq were a publicly and politically visible concession to enable MTA to adopt the service plan. Politics, as you know, does not equal rationality at all times.
By the way, I think what you suggest at 41/14 is a great idea.
Even the Times Square transfer is tolerable if you can just put one foot in front of the other and walk! Yes, it is hot during the summer and crowded, but too bad. That is what you get with a subway that opened in the early 1900s.
If they were to install a moving walkway between the 7 and A/C/E, would they have enough room? I assume they would only put in one, like at Court Square, since the walkway isn't that wide. But with one walkway (assume the same specs at at Court Square), that would not leave much room for anything else.
And if either direction of the D is OOS, it becomes much more complicated.
I suggest a simple shuttle from 34st/6th to Queens Plaza. Since the train can use the middle tracks at QP, it doesn't have to cross anything to get to its relay.
They could just make the transfer at 59th and 63rd/Lex a real transfer. If it didn't count as our free transfer, more people might use it.
The V should run weekends. If the headways are low enough, could they run the G, R, and V all together? Note that the only test they did was rush hour headways, not weekends.
"They could just make the transfer at 59th and 63rd/Lex a real transfer."
That's actually a nice idea, but one which would have to compete for priority with many others.
Not an in-system transfer. The only problem is that no one is going to want to use the transfer because it counts as a subway->bus transfer. For example, you can not do these things:
Let's say you want to go from the Upper East Side to Rockafeller Center and then back to the Met all on one transfer on a weekend. The trip will take less than 2 hours.
6 to 59th Street (1.50 paid)
Walk to 63rd Street, take F to 47-50th (XFER)
M2 to 79th Street (1.50 paid)
Let's say you are going from somewhere out on Union Turnpike to Yankee Stadium on a Sunday. The E is running local due to a GO and the D is on 8th Avenue due to another GO.
Q46 to subway (1.50 paid)
F to Lexington Avenue (XFER)
Walk to 59th Street, take 4 to 161st (1.50 paid)
You do not get a third transfer which is the only way to make these out-of-system transfers any good. I really wonder how many people use them to get back in the subway for free. How many people even know they can do that in theory? If I make an in-system transfer am I not allowed to use my MetroCard on a bus without paying another 1.50? I don't think so. The same should apply at the two out of system MetroCard transfers. How hard is it to reprogram all the turnstiles?
It shouldn't be that difficult.
But remember that free bus-subway transfers, even if good for just one transfer, were responsible for tremendously increasing ridership in the 1990s. Metrocard has been wildly successful from that point of view.
As I said, building a real transfer 63 St IND -59 St IRT, meaning an interior passageway inside fare control, is a good idea. It would compete for capital moneys with other projects, however.
We don't need that until we have people using the out of system transfer.
Any numbers on how many people use that transfer? I've used it once.
WIll there be local and express service if the G is extended to Church?
That's a new one. Somebody asking Busfan a question!
I wasn't asking him directly, I was just hoping to see if anyone here knew.
Who knows? That would be speculation based on rumor.
David
I would think (and yes, David, I'm speculating) not, unless the V is also extended to Church as a local. With only the G as a local, current Manhattan-bound passengers at two stops would have to transfer across the platform and at three stops (including a transfer point from the BMT) would have to go downstairs at Bergen (and that assumes that the lower level at Bergen is restored to usable condition). The TA has enough trouble convincing people that they can stay on the local for more than a few stops; now you want them to be forced onto the express even if they don't mind staying on the local?
That is a very funny point to make and true!
Half the Fs can run local, the other half can run express.
(Half the Fs can run local, the other half can run express.)
That's about the only way express service makes sense, since most of the ridership is inbound of Church Avenue, and would gain nothing from express service. With 6 G trains (change at 7th or Hoyt) and 8 F trains that would provide frequent enough service to limit the outrage. The lower half of the line would have to be content with seven trains at rush hour for the privilege of bypassing six stations and saving four mintues.
That could work, but does it make sense given ridership patterns? Would half the current F service be able to reasonably handle passengers boarding at the five local stations north of Church as well as anyone who happened to board a local south of Church? (At four-minute minimum headways, it's unlikely that an F express would pass an F local. Anyone smart going from Culver proper to Manhattan would take whatever sort of F came first.) I'm concerned that locals would be very crowded and expresses would be very empty.
There's also the issue of train spacing. If trains are spaced evenly south of Church, they'll be on top of each other in Manhattan and Queens (with eight-minute gaps between pairs of trains). If trains are spaced evenly in Manhattan and Queens, they'll be on top of each other south of Church.
I think it would make more sense, assuming the cars are available and the demand is great enough, to extend the V to Church as the local and to run all F's express. Alternatively, have the F run exactly as it does now but only as far south as Church, and extend the V as the express to Church and on to Stillwell.
Or maybe there isn't demand for additional and/or express service and we're wasting our time thinking about it.
I think there is a great demand for express or even more service on the F especially during AM rush hours. On Friday morning (8:30), I had to let two F's go by because there was no room inside. I think the F and the V should both go up to at least Church Av as soon as the Bergen interlocking is repaired. Half the F's should turn at 2av if there isn't sufficient cars. The G should also go to Church.
I don't think non-rush hour service is needed. It isn't much crowded after about 10 or 11am. But after 3:00, it's when students start to pile in. (John Jay(3000students), Brooklyn Tech(4500students), etc)
Well, you're not telling me where you boarded, so I can't really comment.
There are really two distinct issues being discussed here. First, should be there be more service on the line overall? Second, should some of the line's service run express?
Your anecdote suggests that there should be more service but doesn't suggest whether any of it should run express. Crowding alone isn't reason to run service express.
You are correct. However, express service should be introduced when it would serve to effectively redistribute loads - such as when riders can be shown to be utilizing the system in two distinct patterns, one of which is express-friendly. I do not know if that is the case here.
Agreed. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be express service -- I'm just saying that the best service pattern is unclear from what I've seen.
I was doing some railfanning today and I saw these old redbirds in this yard today it had signs "car training" in the cab window and some of the windows had a "white shield" on some of the windows, what is the shield for?
I don't know the answer to your question, but are those 2 R16's (63xx) cars still there in Canarsie ?
Didnt see them just some slants, R-143's and the two redbirds
They are there! I have a picture of R-26#7771 and R-143#8133 on my desktop! Funny seeing them there. It beats having them sent deep sea fishin!:-)
Here's a Pic of it, next to a R-143:
Anybody hear about this? Heard on the radio a train rear ended another at Jamaica. Oh boy what a mess!
It happened Friday; Newsday story.
In case anyone is wondering, it's common practice for trains departing/arriving Jamaica (and some other locations) to follow very closely (I mean _really_ closely). Rules and the signal system permit it.
Even a "bump" is exceedingly rare. If the LIRR were to pull an NYCT CYA stunt and begin requiring trains to clear the platform before the next train enters, Jamaica would grind to a halt.
I've actually seen it at Huntington, an MU was pulling in right behind a diesel that terminates at Huntington for it's NY bound passengers.
To think if the MU bumped the DE engine, the way those crappy engines are made, there'd probably be damage. Look, they've already cracked on their own, resulting in DE/DM engines going back for overhaul already. Sorta like the NYCT Flx Metro disaster with all those cracked A beams.
What is "an NYCT CYA stunt?"
CYA = Cover Your Arse
In other words, no passing a signal until it clears.
Thanks for the definition.
Hey, that close-tailing into Jamaica saved me a lot of time years ago.
I'd be in the front vestibule of the first coachbehind the diesel, as soon as it hit the platform I'd bail and run like hell past the loco, past the gap, and the conductor on the preceding train would hold the rear door open on the rear coach!!
Saved waiting 20 minutes for the next train to Hunterspoint....
Sometimes I wonder how I survived my teen years.... :-)
Thank for the Bus Festival today, otherwise, I would take the later train that could become one of the passengers on these 2 trains.
Actually, Bob, the incident happened Saturday AM. The article said that one train was the 10:43 AM from Ronkonkoma. Ronkonkoma trains on the weekend depart on the 43s. During the week (offpeak) they depart on the 12s. I think the article was written today (Saturday) but was meant for the Sunday edition.
Thanks for the clarification, Steve.
Calm down Mr. Little. There is no mess. The sky is still in place. There is little to no car equipment damage and no one was seriously hurt. Mastly 'whiplash' type injuries.
I saw the report on the news, it was just a minor "fender bender" so to speak. On the radio they did not give any details, other than "up to 30 people hurt in LIRR accident at Jamaica".
Now I know from the TV report and what was relayed here, that a train followed up just a bit to close to it's leader, resulting in a slight bump. From what I saw there was no damage.
LIRR trains follow close to eachother at times, I've seen it myself on occasion. That way trains move in and out of major stations like Jamaica quicker.
I've seen it myself as well. About a few weekends ago I was waiting at Jamaica Station for the 8:56 PM (IIRC) to Brooklyn. At that time two westbound trains were due in, one to Bklyn, one to Penn. Both show up in the junction just east of the station at the same time, with the Manhattan-bound train coming off the Atlantic branch and the Brooklyn-bound train coming off the main. The train to Penn was for Track 1, the train to Flatbush on Track 3. HALL decides to let the Penn-bound train in first. Only seconds after it clears the junction into the station, the Flatbush-bound train goes thru. And in case you were wondering, both left at the same time and went thru the junction at the same time.
My guess, in this case, is that the engineer may have made a bad estimation.
As an addenum: I found it to be a highly efficient operation, one which a railroad can get away with given that it's signal system is based on interlockings with blocks spread out over a few miles or so, with stations oftentimes well within each block and with no signalling governing it (unlike many transit systems, with higher capacity).
Judging by the day of the week, time of day, and warm weather, I suspect it was a SIF ("Skirt Induced Failure").
The Hempstead engineer was maintaining an even speed behind the Ronk. The Ronk suddenly slowed whuke the following engineer's attention was diverted by checking out some of the goodies on the platform.
Sherlock Holmes strikes again. :)
>>The Hempstead engineer was maintaining an even speed behind the Ronk. The Ronk suddenly slowed whuke the following engineer's attention was diverted by checking out some of the goodies on the platform.<<
This wouldn't have happened in the winter. The heat and humidity causing hem lines to rise with the temperature. Now the NTSB will have to find out which babe was showing too much thigh causing this accident leading to lawsuits and such. Word to all engineers in Jamaica Station, watch the rear end of that departing MU in front of you, not hers !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
>> Now the NTSB will have to find out which babe was showing too much thigh causing this accident leading to lawsuits and such. Word to all engineers in Jamaica Station, watch the rear end of that departing MU in front of you, not hers !!! <<
"Ladies and gentlemen, your attention please! Equipment change for engineer on Track 2: Blinkers on."
Some good words of advice, and in fact that was something else I observed when at Jamaica Station. I think, however, that it would be asking too much of the men at HALL or of management to make up a GO for engineers in Jamaica Station to keep their eyes on the track lines and not hemlines or necklines.
The ambulance-chasing shysters (oops, I mean lawyers) were on scene, no doubt, within the hour.
Make the MTA immuned to liability, like the US government.
That would require state legislative action, which would take awhile.
And as a matter of fact, legal issues have such importance in some braches of the MTA that entire floors of office space is devoted to such issues. At NYCT alone, three floors of office space is devoted solely to law.
Make the MTA immuned to liability
There are frivilous lawsuits to be sure, and I'm no friend of the trail lawyer industry, but separate laws must never be made that give a government run business powers or immunities that a similar privately run business has not.
The MTA already learned that it couldn't duck uniform laws covering railroad labor practices simply because it was state-owned.
You can call them "Legal System Abuse Laws" or "Anti-Ambulance Chasing" or "Liability Fraud" or "Acident Fraud" or "Liability Exploitation", Heck I alredy did all the PR for you.
I WAS THERE ON THE TRACK 2 PLATFORM WHEN IT HAPPENED!! I was by the Penn Station bound train when the loud WHAM occurred, forcing the Penn bound train to go into emergency. I had originally thought, as did everyone else there, that the train had struck some construction equipment (since Air Train construction is going on along Track 3, which is out of service and had 2 large construction cranes on flatcars adjacent to the accident scene).
Then noticing directly behind this train was the 11:53AM train to Flatbush, close enough to resemble the entire train being coupled together. Soon the station announcer was on the PA stating "911-CODE 3....911-CODE3". Then EMS and Fire Department began to come to the scene along with the MTA Police. They began to evacuate the trains and were telling the customers on the platforms to please take the subway for service to Manhattan and Brooklyn. The scene was quite a mess. Eastbound service flowed good, while delays to westbound service was said to have lasted for hours.
I think this happened due to 2 suspectable factors:
1). The Flatbush train might have had bad brakes, and simply wheel-slipped into the Penn bound train. Usually during the rush hours one can see trains coming in literally one behind the other, a lot of the times close to 40 feet apart, or half an M-1/3 car length, and in this case with only 2 tracks in service for westbounds (Trk 1 & 2, and trk 1 had a last stop bilevel from the east end occupying trk 1), left only Trk 2 open for the NY and Brooklyn bound trains.) Something like this is bound to happen with this close-up practice done, with trains literally tailgating eachother.
2). (Though someone else stated this, it makes sense giving the day) The engineer's attention was distracted, possibly by one of the many rather skimply dressed, mighty fine ladies out on the station platforms (take it from me as a conductor my attention frequently gets diverted ;-) Hey I'm only a man!! lol) or could have been saying "wassup" to one of his fellow employees, who also were present at the time on the platform. His eyes went a little too far off the tracks, and without enough time to properly apply brakes....WHAM!! This is a good possibility as well.
Also possibly the engineer might have been a new engineer, or trainee, and didn't apply enough brake to adequately slow the train, and misjudged the stopping distance (with dust coating on the rails, along with smudges of tie creosote, the train could have slipped). I think these are the only reasonable causes for such a collision that could have easily been prevented giving it was a low speed collision.
"2). (Though someone else stated this, it makes sense giving the day) The engineer's attention was distracted, possibly by one of the many rather skimply dressed, mighty fine ladies out on the station platforms (take it from me as a conductor my attention frequently gets diverted ;-) Hey I'm only a man!! lol) "
Yeah that could've been a possibility. I also have Skirt Induced Syndrome!
It's about the only thing I like about the hot, humid summer weather, when the ladies where those sundresses. Now the practice of "look don't touch" is pretty hard to practice.
This can also cause platform overshoots or slow, real slow braking as the operator gets a good look at what's waiting on the platform.
I betcha they go real slow entering Flushing, all those mystical ladies wearing the dresses and the dragon clips (they will get you).
LOL Yeah the look but don't touch thing is hard to resist indeed, but I got a special someone and she's all I need (did I mention I was on duty over a year ago when we met?? lol And damn did she ever get my attention. lol)
As for the mysticals at Flushing....
(In Oriental voice...) "Resist the urge my son!!!" lol :-)
Lucky you Qtraindash7...take the views as a perk. All we Car Inspectors get nothing but sweat and grease....and maybe a peak at the 241st hookers during break or lunch. CI Peter
>>> with dust coating on the rails, along with smudges of tie creosote, the train could have slipped <<<
Rather unlikely on well used tracks with a train immediately in front of this one which had braked at the same place to stop in the station.
Tom
What stop should I use to transfer from SEPTA regional rail to the Orange line? Also, about how long does the full trip take?
It's not the Orange line, it's the BROAD STREET line, or simply the Subway.
What you want to do is get off at Suburban Station, which is in Center City (downtown), it will be the second stop in CC. Take your BROAD STREET local train to southbound to Pattison which is the last stop.
Orange Line is sometimes used, even by SEPTA, to designate the BSS. The Market-Frankford Line is also called the Blue Line, and the Subway-Surface cars, the Green Line.
True, but I've never heard regular riders refer to them as such. Unless you're a SEPTA employee, referring by color is like putting up a giant sign saying "I'm a tourist, come dupe me!"
Although the colors help designate the lines on maps, I've never heard a Philadelphian say Blue Line, Orange Line, or Green Line.
In Philadelphia, the el is the MKT-FKD line, even when it runs in the subway.
The subway is the BSS.
The subway-surface is routes #10, 11, 13, 34, & 36.
Jim K.
Formally of Philadelphia
It's not the Orange line, it's the BROAD STREET line
It's both:
http://www.septa.org/promo/Bss3.html
You will walk thru a passage from Suburban Station to the rest of the SEPTA complex...head towards the Orange Broad Street Line signs, and you will find yourself at the City Hall station. Pay with a token, get a southbound train, it takes about 10 or 15 minutes to get to Pattison Avenue.
What does "NJ Transit" have to do with any of this?
If LIRR cannot get into Penn station if Amtrak shuts down, here are the best options
Squeeze as many trains into Atlantic ave Flatbush terminal as possible, there is an ample amount of subways in that area (1,2,4,5,A,C,F,M,N,R)
If IRT subways get overcrowded, close them off to LIRR and have them use the less crowded M,N,R
Terminate the rest at Jamaica. Run special trains from Sutphin Blvd to Manhattan. The Z would run from Sutphin Blvd using the express track and not making stops until Manhattan.
The P train would run from Sutphin to Manhattan making no stops until Manhattan, then make all E stops.
While these trains may experience delays due to congestion of normal trains in front of them, it is better to not have additional passengers boarding the already crowded trains out of Jamaica.
Again, the Z and P trains would be for people going between Jamaica and Manhattan only, no other stops would be made in Queens.
As for the Pt.Washington branch, which would not have access to Jamaica, all trains would have to terminate at Shea Stadium where they will get the 7.
A possible 7 super express would only stop at Main street, Willets point, Queensboro plaza and stops in Manhattan, skipping Junction and Woodside, where at those stations pax will have to use the local.
Just forgot to mention, if you didn't guess, that the P would be via Queens Blvd, the Z via the Jamaica El.
Don`t forget the two Q's and the W that also stops at Atlantic Ave.
Yes, there are so many subway alternatives at Atlantic avenue. Displaced LIRR riders need to go there, versus the already over-burdened subway systems in Queens (and remember the DOT bus strike on top of all of it).
You keep forgetting about Hunterspoint and Long Island City. And yes, electrics can go there.
"You keep forgetting about Hunterspoint and Long Island City."
Can you spell "H-A-R-O-L-D"?
Elias
Yes, the interlocking is controlled by AMTRAK, but I'm sure they'd be considerate enough to leave a clear path for Hunterspoint before they leave! I mean, it's not like the switches will have to do any moving around. Unless there's only a single track connecting the Mainline to Hunterspoint, I forget.
My sincere thanks to the E.R.A. members who were so kind and convivial on today's bus trip. Yours truly had intended to go, but a funeral for a 32 year old friend clearly took precedence. Carolyn, my daughter, went in my stead. She literally grew up at BERA in its best years, and had operated ConnCo 1414 quite often during the evenings of our many family operating weeks at BERA. She was most pleased with the trip to the amusement park, with seeing 1414 again (although, as she noted, its movements were substantially restricted)and with the good company of E.R.A. members throughout the trip on the bus, at lunch, at Lake Compounce and at the Danbury Railway Museum.
Yours truly really appreciates the courtesies and good company E.R.A. members extended to her on this interesting trip. Thank you, one and all!
They just started showing the ad for the new film, which includes a scene of Will Smith crashing through the railfan window on an R-32 which is then bitten in half by the alien de jour. The scene then cuts to Smith after wiping clear the passengers' minds explaining that this is the MTA's new shorter subway cars (with a digitally bitten-in-half R-32 in the background).
All this is pretty unbelievable of course -- maybe the alien could have been through one of those rusting R-38s or R-42s, but not the Budd cars. :-)
This is very old news. This ad has been airing for weeks, though thanks for telling us... ;-)
Sorry -- the TV was off during vacation...
Will there be any redbirds still running in 2004.
Chances are slim to none, and Slim is out to lunch.
A full trainset or two might be saved for meatball/scratchitti/full moon runs but if what I have measured for 'remaining meat' on the wheels is any answer, 'Slim Mon he got de AIDS.' I expect one serious summer of #5 Redbirds...we now have 110 R142 cars...and it it highly unlikely that bum cars will get divorced from married pairs. CI Peter
Possibly. It's been, what, about 1.5 years since the R-142's and R-142A's started showing up in earnest? And it's 1.5 years until the beginning of 2004. Are half of the Redbirds gone yet? I'm not sure -- the 2's lost all but two trains, the 5's lost about 10 (IIRC), the 6 has lost all of its (how many is that?), and the 7's lost a few, but that still leaves a good number on the 4, 5, and 7.
I agree with Mr. Greenberger.
Consider this. A few weeks ago, I was signing in for my shift on the 2 line. The line superintendent was in the tower at the time, telling the dispatcher and a TSS that he had to take a bunch of R-142's out of service and run 9 redbirds in their place, due to a problem with the new trains. It's going to be a while before the 142's have completely phased out the redbird.
In contrast, the R142a has completely run out the 6's redbirds, except for a couple of rogue consists.
The 6 never had an all-Redbird fleet. The 2 did less than two years ago.
I think the 5 did also. The 4 was half and half like the 6. The 1/9 was the only line that had all R62 or62A, as far as I know.
The 5 had a few R-62A trains borrowed from the 6. (They were assigned to the 6 but they ran on the 5.)
The 3 also had (and has, for now) an R-62A-only fleet. The West Side has had very little variety: only R-62A's on the 1/9 and 3, only Redbirds (and now R-142's) on the 2.
I forgot about the 3. I don't think I've ever seen a redbird on the 3 in rescent years.
Back in the mid 90's, there was in fact a red bird on the 3. It was signed for the #2 because of the week G/O at 3rd Avenue. I say looking at this ten car train of redbirds at Lenox Terminal looked kinda odd being that this terminal is usually dominated with R-62a's.
Except for very rare anomalies, the 3 has been all-R-62A, like the 1/9, since the mid-80's.
That's my point. The 1/9 has only R-62A's. The 2 had only Redbirds and will soon have only R-142's. The 3 has only R-62A's. Boring! Why not give us some variety like on the East Side?
"The 3 has only R-62A's. Boring! Why not give us some variety like on the East Side?"
I believe variety might be coming on the #3. Some (or all?) of the #3's R62As will be going to the #7 line. Therefore, there will be R142s or R142As on the #3. I'm just not sure what the split between R62A and R142/R142As will be. -Nick
The 3 will be all R-142. Any such variety will be short lived.
Two Redbird trainsets are still covered by 239th crew #6...the 'Unterkommandos.' Sometimes they're switched over to the 180th crew...all should end by Labor Day. Joy for clean work looking for loose hardware!!!!!!!! CI Peter
No complaints here!
I'm still hoping someone in the TA will decide to hang onto the 150-200 best Redbirds, either to fill in when the R-142's have problems or to seriously increase 1 service. (Yes, I know there will be more R-142's/R-142A's than there were Redbirds, but I'm not expecting anything more than a tiny increase in 1 service from them.) Two years from now, when I'm still pushing for more 1 service, I don't want to hear "car shortage" as the excuse it won't happen.
"Will there be any redbirds still running in 2004."
This will depend on the timing of the option order, which was originally slated to begin delivery in January 2003. Since the original order was delayed by eight months (first R142 arrived in Yonkers from Japan in 12/99 instead of 4/99), and that order is still arriving, that probably means the option order is delayed too. Before the option order was purchased by the MTA, it was reported on subtalk that nearly 300 redbird cars would remain after the original order. Therefore, until the first 300 cars of the option order has arrived, a few redbirds will remain. -Nick
i hope i can still shoot the #2 express with them
& the #7 with them as well !!
# 6 would be nice !!
this setember 2002 that is ...................
the 2 aint express no more
Pretty soon it should be. Once the 1/9 tunnel rebuilding project is completed. I missed that express. It still doesn't beat out Lexington Avenue.
Your best chance is with the #7. Apparently a few redbirds on the #2 may still exist, however I have not seen them in quite awhile now. -Nick
Anybody looking for Redbirds go to the #5 line too. All or I should say some of the R-33mainlines are there. Back where they belong.
There was one on the deuce yesterday (Sun).
Wanted to know if anybody knows the name of the movie where a man is seen hanging out of a moving train (laying on the floor out of a door, result of a fight?) and is killed when a big steam locomotive from an adjacent track hits him in the opposite direction. It is black and white and looks like it was made in the 40's. Thanks in advance.
Hmm, I know a movies kinda like that.... It's B&W and probably in the 40's...
I forgot the title though it involves this girl and a male relative, not father but maybe an uncle. I can't remember...
All that I know is that both relatives are kinda the same psychically and do things simultaneously without thought. It ends when the uncle or whatever winds up in a struggle with the nephew, and the uncle encounters a fate with a steam locomotive....
Is this what you're talking about...
It is a niece, not a nephew.
I think you are both talking about the Alfred Hitchcock movie from 1943 entitled Shadow of a Doubt.
It starred Joseph Cotten and Theresa Wright!
I don't recall the plot but I do recall the mention of Hitchcock but didn't mention it because I was very unsure. That might be it. Thanks.
I used to have the video, but in checking, find I sold it about eight onths ago.
I'm pretty sure though, that this is the movie that you are seeking.
A very similar scene was included in the movie, "Silver Streak".
Okay, here we go again. I can think of at least 2 other movies where the 'bad guy' loses their head. Anyone care to take a shot here?
The Dennis Hopper character lost his head while fighting with the Keanu Reeves character on top of an LA Metro subway train in the original Speed.
You didn't say it had to be a good movie. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
That was one of the two I was thinking of. I didn't think it was such a bad movie until that train scene. Now, who want's to take a shot at the other one? (hint: it was a female head that was lost)
This probably isn't the correct answer, since nobody actually loses their head in this movie, but the Danny DeVito character's mother almost loses her head in Throw Mama From the Train. Actually a pretty funny movie.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Nope, the correct answer is "Narrow Margin". In the climax, Gene Hackman & Anne Archer are being menaced by Susan Hogan with a gun on the roof of a trans-canada train. They are crouched down as Hogan hovers over them, prepared to shoot. Gene hackman says"You know what I like about you? You're tall!". Just then the train rnters a tunnel and Hogan gets it in the back of the head via the portal.
All in all - not a bad train murder-mystery.
Have you ever seen the original Narrow Marginmovie from 1952,starring Charles McGraw & Marie Windsor?
Karl, I know that another movie by the same title exists but I've never seen it.
It turns up from time to time on channels like AMC or TCM.
While it does not have near the action as the Hackman movie, it is a classic in its own right, and just may be one of the best B movies ever made.
Dude, take my words for it. It was a great movie. If it ever comes on AMC or Turner Classics watch it. You will love Charles McGraw. He plays a cop the way it ought to be played.
I did and it was a lot better. Charles McGraw has that Irish cop look about him and played his role to perfection.
I watched Money Train last night. First time since it had first come out. WHY did I do that?!!! Bad then, bad now.
Silver Streak was a favorite movie of mine! It was the first movie I bought when I got my first VCR in 1978. Movie videos were very expensive back then. I think I had to pay $49.95.
>>> A very similar scene was included in the movie, "Silver Streak". <<<
But wasn't that an homage to (or parody of) the Hitchcock original?
Tom
I was on the L a few days ago and saw something that I had forgotten about. Next to the southbound track (to Rockaway Parkway) is a large gray painted building/warehouse. It has large roll gates on the side of it and appears that there was a siding there for freight at one time. There was a lot of brush so I couldn't tell for sure. Was there a siding there at one time and if so, what did it connect to? LIRR Bay Ridge? Thanks.
Yes there was a connection to the "L" and there is a connection to the #4 IRT line. I`ve for gotten the name of the yard, but they build track segments there.
Linden Yards or more accurately, Linden Shops, is the name of that yard...
Are the LIRR freight tracks in the vicinity of E105 all gone then?
No, Paul they are still there along side the Canarsie L tracks (behind a fence). Even the E.105th Street station house staircase (north side) was built to accomodate the height of mainline boxcars that might've been passing under the structure to enter/exit the industrial complex adjacent to E. 105th Street.
I forgot to mention that too. I noticed how the station mezzanine was built over that area with a lot of room underneath. Reminded me of some of the bridges over the old Putnam line in the Bronx.
Yes there was a siding there. It use to serve the old Time Square Stores Warehouse.
Yes, that trackage was a spur from the Bay Ridge LIRR branch. The tracks originally crossed Ditmas Ave. and Farrgut Rd. near Bank St. They were installed sometime in the early 70's not long after Mayor Lindsay was trying to create an Industrial Center in the area north of Canarsie and south of Brownsville. So far as I know the tracks were never used! They have since been severed from the Bay Ridge, but the tracks still cross the street at Farragut and Bank St. (gotta drive slow so your suspension doesn't get rattled!).
Thanks. Very intersting.
I was in Louisville last weekend on a non-railfan trip, but managed a few quick forays, the result being nine photos on my Webshots page. Union Station (Louisville & Nashville) is attractive.
Upon looking at http://community.webshots.com/photo/31837457/31839053nUrxpgapVF
I noticed there a new switch upon leaving the Broadway Junction Station going into the tunnel. My question is when was this added and why it was added?
It might be about a year old now give or take a month or two. It makes Broadway Junction function as a terminal when the need arises. They are tearing apart Atlantic Ave. that used to function as a turning point. They are undertaking the straightening project between Sutter and Atlantic that will require trains to be turned and shuttle buses to be utilized. Any T/O's on the L sick of that home signal that looks like a repeater leaving the portal at Bushwick?
OK that explains why when I was breaking in everyone seemed a bit nervous about it.
Score! That new X-over looks like a US&S installation.
#1 you can then DRIVE everywhere still..........!!!..........???
#2 ride the GREYHOUND BUS ............!!...........??
#3charter a BUS or Lemo ??.............!
#4go fly as a passenger on a AIRCRAFT ..........?......!!........?
#5ride illegal on a freight train ............!!!.......?
#6 hitchike ???..........!!!
#7 STAY HOME 2 HELL WITH IT ..............!!!...........??
***********************************************************
but no more commuter rail / amrtak !!!............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>>>>>>bummer !!!!!
@ even out west here all commuter rail service will B gone !!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...........?
If you feel the same way, please write a similar letter. Act now, before it is too late.
To write your representative, go to:
http://www.house.gov/writerep/ -- Enter your zip code, and submit a letter electronically. It's as easy as that :-)
---Attached Letter---
Alicia Emma Mueller
Somerville, Massachusetts 02144-2319
June 23, 2002
To The Honorable Michael E. Capuano:
Dear Sir,
I am sure you are aware, the National Railroad Passenger Corporation, or Amtrak, has recently been in the spotlight due to funding issues.
I do not know whether you have taken a stance on the matter, and I wish to apologize in advance if I misunderstand your position. I am writing to let you know that I am in support of a Federally-subsidized national passenger railroad network for the United States. I agree that many aspects of the current operator, Amtrak, requires reform. However, I do not believe that putting Amtrak out of business, or attempting to fragment the institution through franchising or privatization is the way forward.
As the author of the paper "Vertical Integration v.s. Infrastructure Separation for Railroads: A Transatlantic Comparison" (Transportation Research Board, National Academies of Sciences, Paper No. TRB 02-2332), I believe I am qualified to suggest that if Amtrak were divided between an infrastructure owner and train operator, as Amtrak Reform Council suggested, railroad operational chaos is likely to result -- to the detriment of the viability of both intercity and commuter rail as a viable mode of transportation. In many European Countries, including Britain, Sweden, and Germany, differing degrees of horizontal separation had been trialled, without much success. France, which has remained steadfastly vertically-integrated, operates one of the best high speed rail systems in the world.
I hope you will take this into account when considering your position on Amtrak. I believe it is imperative that intercity passenger rail continues to be subsidized, and that a national entity should be responsible for both the operation of the infrastructure and the operation of trains. Subcontracting the maintenance of infrastructure, with suitable contractor supervision, is not necessarily bad thing in itself; but operation of railroad infrastructure is an inseparable task from the operation of trains, and should be handled by the same institution.
In the meanwhile, I am holding firm my reservation on Amtrak -- a round-trip from Boston to Washington -- in August 2002. I hope you will do all you can ensure that I can travel as planned. Specifically, I hope you will authorize the requested operational subsidy of $1.5 billion for Amtrak for the financial year 2002-2003.
Yours Sincerely,
Alicia Emma Mueller
Research Assistant
Center for Transportation Studies
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
nicely crafted. would be interested in reading your paper. a link?
Thanks
My paper is hosted at:
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/trb/032602.revised/OpenAccess.032602.pdf
The handout I gave out when I presented the paper is hosted at:
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/trb/032602.revised/OpenAccess.122801.pdf
As you can see, I go by a different name at MIT...
AEM7
Oops, try again...
http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/trb/032602.revised/OpenAccess.handout.122801.pdf
AEM7
Loose lips. :)
Well, I could have changed the name in my paper, but I figure it wasn't worth the effort. I'll change my handle again if anyone else decides to start splattering my opinions about like onions...
AEM7
So is your name Alicia Emma Mueller or Alex Lu?
- Lyle Goldman
It tells you something about this country when the only people writing clear and cogent letters to the lawmakers in Washington aren't even US Citizens (don't worry, we won't rat on you ;-) ).
excuse me? You imply that either the letters I sent to Boxer & Feinstein are poorly written or I am not a citizen. Wrong and wrong.
Not a U.S. citizen? Where do you get that from?
- Lyle Goldman
Easy, AEM7 is a British Subject.
A beautiful letter, and well written. I commend you. I would be proud to cosign such a letter with you.
One point about sending correspondence though - despite the impact of the Anthrax scare, email is still not that great for communication - a lot of it doesn't get read (I'm not saying don't do it). Telephoning your Representative and Senator is effective, and the US mail is effective as well.
If you can take a little time to come in to the legislator's district office, that helps too.
I'm not sure I agree with your point about separating rails from trains. If that is unworkable, then inter-city rail will always be a monopoly, and without choice quality and innovation will always be a problem.
I think the problem in Britain is that they privatized the ROW. That is a public function, since the private sector will always have an incentive to cash cow such an asset (though that's pretty much what the public sector does to in order to "profit" interest groups).
My perfect conclusion would have federal funding for the ROW just as there is federal funding for the roads, and three operators running trains on the Northeast Corridor.
If that is unworkable, then inter-city rail will always be a monopoly, and without choice quality and innovation will always be a problem.
Let me ask you a few questions:
(a) Do you have a choice as to who you get your municipal water from? Is quality and innovation at your fawcet a problem?
(b) Prior to 1971, do you remember a time when the 20th Century Limited competed with the Broadway Limited without the separation of infrastructure from the train operations?
Let me be clear on this. There are certain industries in this world which are natural monopolies. An industry will become a natural monopoly (i.e. monopoly is the most efficient way to operate) if the industry shows increasing returns to scale beyond the size of the market. Increasing returns of scale implies that at the optimal price level P = marginal cost (MC) < average cost (AC); if P < AC then the firm will always lose money when operating at the highest level of consumer surplus (i.e. result of competition). The net result is that any firm operating in a natural monopoly will tend to drive each other out of business.
Most transportation operations are such natural monopolies, because the product are both highly specific and perishable, whilst the assets used to produce them are very durable.
My perfect conclusion would have federal funding for the ROW just as there is federal funding for the roads, and three operators running trains on the Northeast Corridor.
The market between New York and any point in the NEC will simply not support three operators. If one operator cannot profit, three operators will incur larger losses. The market for rail travel is simply too elastic. More correctly, the market for intercity travel is subject to too much competition from other modes, as a result even a small rise in prices on the rail operator has a large impact on the ridership. Three companies will never make it.
If you want to drop into my office next week, I will only be too happy to show you some figures.
Alicia
Economics and railfanning don't mix.
My head hurts, I was hoping never to have to see textbook-style economics again, but all the stuff you said looks correct.
Just don't mention how subsidies and taxes both cause inefficiencies in any economy.
(If you want to drop into my office next week, I will only be too happy to show you some figures.)
I'd be happy to come by and chat, but from what I saw of your letter, you are in Boston, and I am in Brooklyn. Betwixt work and kids and other duties, I barely have time for Subtalk. You can e-mail any figures you'd like me to see, however, at ldl-jmd@att.net.
Yes, I agree that the ROW, streets, etc. are natural monopolies, as is water supply and anything else that relies on a widely distributed infrastructure (including the communications last mile, sad to say).
I'm not sure about the trains, however. Competion from other operators? They'd all have a reason to price above cost, since the biggest fixed cost (the ROW) would be publicly provided, as it is for trucks and buses on the highway. Competition from other modes? If rail isn't the most cost effective mode, then perhaps we shouldn't support it. Absent historical inefficiencies and institutional arrangements, I thing it is at least for some trips.
There is a political-economic argument here. The highways were supported by tax dollars. Rail stations raise local property values (unlike facilities for the auto, like parking lots, which de-value adjacent properties). So I think there is a case for the goverment to pay for ROWs and stations for trains.
Having the TRAINS privately run would bring political clarity. We in the Northeast have fewer miles of federally financed miles per capita than other regions. The rails are our highways, and we deserve our share.
this is a test
failed
Sorry, it worked, therefore you flunked; back to Summer School Car for you :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What is the track gauge for Toronto (TTC) ?
I was told about 4' 10".
Bill "Newkirk"
4 ft, 10 and 7/8 in., so closer to 4;11 than 4;10.
-Robert King
It's actually 4' 10 7/8". Has to be the oddest gauge in North America, except for Baltimore's gauge of 5' 4 1/2", the widest.
Both cities got their odd gauges for the same reason: The city councils wrote both cities first franchises that the gauge to be used "shall be that of the local wagon builders". Thus the odd gauges.
I heard a different story about Toronto. They adopted the odd gauge so no freight railroads could take over the street railways and pulled the wheels as far apart as they could on their axles. 4' 10 7/8" was the limit, so that's the gauge theyadopted.
That's just a fable. James Bow (who runs or ran) the Transit Toronto website verified the franchise gauge requirement. We has a couple of e-mail talks in 2000.
The "Gauge shall be that of the local wagon bulders" clause seems to be a product of the 1850-1865 period. The thought behind it was "if we are allowing a private company to lay rails in the public streets, then the public should be able to make use of them. We know Baltimore's first operator, Baltimore City Passenger Railway had it as a copy of the franchise resides in the Maryland Historical Society's files. We also suspect that may explain the quarter inch difference between the Philadelphia gauge and Pennsylvania Broad guage.
We have photos in the BSM Library showing horse drawn wagons driving in the streetcar tracks. Some of the shots date from as late as 1950.
We also know that when the Washington & Georgetown RR, DC's first street railway received its franchise from Congress in 1862 it specified "The gauge to be used shall be that of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad", thus Washington's gauge was standard (4' 8 1/2") from day one.
That's an interesting hypothesis, and it certainly contradicts
what might be the urban legend explanation that street railway
broad gauge was designed either to prevent freight railroads
from running their big trains down the street, or to protect
the freight railroads against competition from the street railways.
Do you think the "local wagon builder" clause was also the
force behind Pennsylvania broad gauge and New Orleans?
Actually the New Orleans gauge is due to Wiedner-Elkins interest in several NO mule/horsecar lines. W-E properties usually got cars from their Philadelphia properties car shops, so those lines got Philadelphia gauge, which is not Pennsylvania broad, but a quarter inch narrower - 5' 2 1/4".
As an aside, both of The Big Easy's current lines were reguaged from standard to Philadelphia gauge - St. Charles in 1924 and Riverfront in 1999/2000.
I stand corrected.
Denver Tramways operated streetcars on narrow 3' 6" gauge track - same as Los Angeles. It seems strange to see photos of PCCs running on that narrow gauge track. I'm pretty sure that had I grown up in L. A., I would have remembered streetcars. They came off in 1963, and I can remember events before that. In fact, that was the year I saw a streetcar for the first time, in Toronto.
Our light rail system today uses standard gauge track.
Both Denver and LA, plus Portland kept the cable car gauge of 42" for their electric streetcars. In all three, I suspect what is called "community of investment" was involved. Either the cable track was electrifed (see Denver & Portland, possibly LA) or cable trailers were used as electric trailers.
That's the basic idea - to prevent freight trains from rolling around downtown.
-Robert King
NO NO NO NO. Check my earlier post on the subject.
The Mackenze-Mann story may make good reading, but it's a Toronto Urban Rail Legend. There's no evidence to back it up.
The Market-Frankford Line's gauge is 5 and a half feet.
Nope, it's Philadelphia gauge, 5' 2 1/4".
5 and a half feet would be 1 1/2" wider than Baltimore's gauge of 5' 4 1/2"
Is there a version of the SD 90 (or comparable SD) that works on electric or can pick up electric?
Can all diesel be converted to run off electric?
How much work would take to convert a diesel-electric to electric only operation without the generator on board?
No.
Probably.
Pickups and Transformers.
Of course with lineside substations the "trolley" could be 600 VDC, or 3rd rail also but unlikely in open country. Then you wouldn't need onboard transformers. I'd also expect yo'd need a differenet control system since the throttle/controller would no longer be controlling a diesel engine first but controlling group switch operation directly. In my years of freight service in the west I always envisioned SD40's with pantographs! Then you could hear nothing but the beloved old traction motor sounds instead of that noisy diesel.
The SD-40's generator is 600 VDC (nominal?) (got operators manuel). so you could put them in the subway directly but then you need speed contorl.
Theoretically yes! Of course they wouldn't fit but they could most likely on LIRR or Metro North. For overhead wire of course all mainlne systems are 11000 or 25000 volts AC so convrsion equipment would be needed.I may be a bit out of date on line voltages...heard the NEC was still 11,000 VAC. Or is that history. BTW I saw an EMD electric at Harrisburg PA back in the 70's that looked like it was built on an SD40 body with hoods quite similar.
I would like to see diesels with disel-electric/electric operation instead of just diesel-electric, having Dual Power Operation is better that a single power pick-up. They already have the AMD-103 doing this operation.
Explain further, please.
What would you like for me to explain??
Why is the E running local in Queens today? The F is running express as usual. The G is cut back to Court Square, but the R is running via 60th, so there is access at Queens Plaza to the local. Does the R alone somehow not provide sufficient local service on weekends even though it did until six months ago? (Not that it mattered to me -- I needed the F in any case.)
That seems to be the model 2 local services at all times.
It never provided sufficient local service. In theory, if it were to run on schedule 100% of the time, it would have.
I thought the local E (and the G cutback) might have had something to do with work at Queens Plaza, since it was posted that a switch there was not functioning right. But then I thought... the E has to use that switch at QP to get back to express.
Maybe they were doing something which required a constant line-up for the F to/from 63st?
I think the switch in question was the one from the NB local to the NB express -- not a big deal, since neither the G nor the R runs express under normal circumstances.
Whatever the cause, E's were running local all the way in both directions.
My guess is that its only purpose was to give G riders single-transfer access to local stations, like the V provides weekdays. But before 12/16, G riders didn't have single-transfer access to local stations on weekends, so why the change in policy?
Hmmm, I don't recall reading a G.O. on that. Also going back from the Busfest yesterday my 4 train switched to the local before Union Square, but skipped all stops to Grand Central. The C/R made an announcement that I could barely make out, that all trains were running express to 125th st going uptown. But why did we switch to the local? At GCT, an out of service train was parked there (R62, no lights on)on uptown express.
The TA never posts service advisories about expresses running local unless they're relevant to other advisories (e.g., if the C's running express on CPW, the advisory will indicate that the D's running local).
This evening, both Lex express tracks were open straight through Manhattan. The uptown local track was closed north of 42nd, but we knew that. It sounds like a train had gone out of service on the express track so everything was sent up the local until the problem train could be cleared out of the way.
>>>>Why is the E running local in Queens today? The F is running express as usual. The G is cut back to Court Square,<<<<
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/26_gno.pdf will answer this question.
No, that just says that the G is cut back to Court Square. The E stops at 23rd-Ely no matter what. It didn't need to run local; anybody who wanted local stops could have transferred to the R. That's exactly how the line worked on weekends before December 16 (except for the F).
Funny, but late Saturday afternoon I rode the E from 42nd to Kew Gardens, and at Queens Plaza, the conductor announced that "due to previous delays, this E train is running express; Roosevelt Avenue next." This confused us to no end, as the E is SUPPOSED to run express, except overnight. A similar announcement followed at Roosevelt about Continental being the next stop.
I noticed an E on the Manhattan-bound express track at Roosevelt and another one stopped Manhattan-bound at Woodhaven. So maybe there was a GO in effect having all Es run local in Queens. I don't know why it would be necessary, what with the R running its normal routing through 60th Street.
A couple of weeks ago, the R ran through 63rd along with the F and the G was cut off at Court Square as it is on weekends. Despite this, a Queens-bound E I rode ran express from the Plaza to Roosevelt, requiring people needing 36th through 65th to double back. At least the conductor made the appropriate announcements at the Plaza- which didn't stop a lot of people from changing for the local anyway.
Better question: Why was the G Train cut back to Court Square?
- Lyle Goldman
To make room for the V.
But the V wasn't running this weekend.
I meant, why was it cut this past weekend.
- Lyle Goldman
At night it is silly to have all these services. Several years ago they started coordinating the transfers at night due to the perception that the subway is a rapists playground. The result is that at night the E,F and G often hit 74 within 4 minutes going north and about the same time period at CTL going south.
I added a few more pictures on WEBSHOTS.COM. Below are the links where you guys can see them. And SIGN MY GUESTBOOK (If not then put a reply in the post)
http://community.webshots.com/album/13881523WXoPjOagxg
http://community.webshots.com/album/20082785WAhzJCNAQM
Get a night filter. The pictures are WAYYYYY to dark. Get a better film or use the light meter. Otherwise they're nice.
I dont use film :)
How many megapixels?
Some of the photos are 640 x 480. The second set range from 640 x 480 to 1024 x 768 or 1280 x 960. I use Sony Memory sticks 32 MB 64 MB and 128 MB. The higher the res. obviously the more space it will take. I really dont mind though because you can delete when you are done. But I try and use the higher res. modes because the just come out better.
Very nice!
In the first batch, you've misidentified a few cars. Your R-40M is an R-42, your R-38 is an R-32, and your R-44 is an R-46.
In the second batch, your R-62 is an R-62A (assuming the rollsign is correct).
Amazing sunset at Crescent! And I see you also got out to the rerouted Q last weekend.
Thanks a lot. I made the corrections.
i am on WEBSHOTS too ... nice photos you took !!
here is a somewhat list of my yahoo groups :
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
and photo album communities etc...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7FLUSHING/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ASIATICCOMMUNICATIONS/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BLUELINE/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitaltransitphotography/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSCS30/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dscs30sonydigitalstillcamera/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MassTransitCommentary/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/METROLINKCOMMUTERtrainz/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGSR33K/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/REDLINEsubway/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthernCaliforniaTransit/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/finishthe710freeway/?yguid=43376975
THIS IS ONLY A PART OF MY YAHOO GROUPS LISTS !!
ENJOY- JOIN PARTICIPATE !! SalaamAllah "ants" ol' man here !!!
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com RAIL & BUS TRANSIT
salaamallah@hotmail.com
salaamallah@hotmail.com<<<donutsdude@yahoo.com other information etc....
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
http://www.webspawner.com/users/salaamallah/index.html WEBSPAWNER LINKS SITE
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/ TRANSIT VIDEOS FOR SALE INFORMATION
ALSO MY LIST APPEARS ON http://www.nycsubway.org/transfer/salaam_videos.html
http://www.nycsubway.org/index.html DAVID PIRMANNS SITE DA" BEST EVER !!!!
Thankz folks SalaamAllah { THAT CRAZY BALD HEADED TOOTHLESS 50+ OLD MAN }
WOW. Lots of nice photos. I am glad I am able to share my phots with you guys. :)
Last year, PATCO was planning to do a feasibility study of extending the line past Lindenwold into Gloucester & Northern Cumberland County.
Has anyone heard of anything about the outcome of the feasibilty study & what town would the service terminate if the line is extended past Lindenwold.
That line isn't past Lindenwold, its down the CR Vineland Secondard through Woodbury and Glassboro.
Originally, three lines were proposed for service to Philly. The Lindenwold Line was the only one completed.
Does the Camden-Trenton Light Rail project serve any communities that were supposed to receive PATCO-like service but did not?
Nope. The 3rd line was up to Mt. Holly. Both that and the Woodburry lines are being blocked by local power types.
With the restoration of full service across the Manhattan Bridge set for 2004, and the repair project still on schedule according to NYCDOT, what progress is being made by the TA in the restoration of the Bergen Tower and the tracks which are now out of service?
One would think that Brooklyn bound service could improve tremendously with both projects completed. Also, some indirect improvements to Queens service would occur (due to smoother movement of trains through Manhattan).
Does anyone know?
I forgot what they called it (microswitch?) but a contract was put out to redo the tower. The first of its kind for the subway. Probably take at least 2 years but the tracks will make a return.
Thank you. That's great news.
Solid state interlocking, I think.
"MicroLock"
US&S product used by mainline RR's for alotta years
LocTrac, actually. According to page 8 of the June 2002 "Railway Age," NYCT awarded a $47 million contract to Alcatel Transport Automated Solutions for this project. The existing relay-based system will be replaced with 6151 LocTrac solid-state technology, NYCT's first solid-state interlocking.
David
Will the new tower just control the switches north of Bergen, or will its range be extended?
Sorry...I don't have that information. I can try to find out, though.
David
'My Bad' on the naming!
I think they will restore the two crossovers to the south as well.
Oh, they went with "the other vendor"
You mean NASHOD ?
I just looked at the Track map again and even if there was a fire at this interlocking, there is no reason that it should prevent Express service on the F and local service on the G (unless I mixed up where Bergen Tower is). All you need to do is spike the points for the F to run on the lower level at Bergen St. and for the G to go onto the upper level (which it already does). The F proceeds express to Church and then to Cony. The G proceeds local to Church.
True, and that's what they did while they were 'fixing' the tower so that the G and F could merge and diverge again. But the problem with that is, unless they fix up lower Bergen, passengers between 4th ave and Bergen st. would have to go southbound to 7th ave to get Manhattan bound service, and vice versa for northbound service. You need something running to Manhattan from both the express and the local.
Plus the G doesn't run nearly often enough to serve Carrol Gardens/Cobble Hill, especially if they leave Bergen St. lower level closed until they put some tile up down there.
That would require a decision to reactivate the lower level platforms at Bergen Street. A decision was made several years ago to abandon the lower level; the tiles were removed soon after. As far as I am aware, that option is not being discussed at this time.
David
the tiles were removed soon after.
I thought someone here said once the tiles were removed because of severe water damage. The lower level was abandoned way before the tiles were removed.
You are correct.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Carroll Gardens residents already raised a stink about the lack of easy access to Manhattan when the F ran rush hour express in Brooklyn in the 1970s. Until the MTA has enough B Division cars to extend V train service to Church Ave. and allow both a local and express to Manhattan along the Park Slope/Carroll Gardens route, it's unlikely there will be any change in service, even after the interlocking is back in operation.
And the extra car equipment for this service would come from????
The Car Fairy.
Well, the L for one thanks to all those new R143's. Having that unused express track is a sin against nature. Something should run that service.
(Does anyone know?)
A contract to begin work should be signed any day now; the project is expected to last 36 months. The Bergen Tower will be automated, with control transferred to a master tower at Jay St. Also, this will be the TA solid state interlocking pilot project.
Several things puzzle me about the E 105 St station on the Canarsie...
--It was the only grade cross in the system until 1973. But, I've read some sources that say that E105th crossed the tracks until 1983 or so, and that's when the present platform was constructed. If that's true, what did they do between 1973 and 1983? Or, are those reports wrong and the present island platform been in place since 1973?
--A photo in the nycsubway.org archives shows a street called Turnbull Avenue on one side, or either side, of the tracks before the grade cross was eliminated. Supposedly, Turnbull ran from Farragut Road n.e. to Stanley and 108th. Present Hagstroms still show it there! Was Turnbull eliminated when the grade cross was?
www.forgotten-ny.com
AFAIK there's only one source that says the grade crossing remained until 1983 and I believe it's a typo. The grade crossing was gone in '73.
Dan
I remeber as a kid during the 1970 the grade crossing was eliminated for the cars about 1973. However it was use so that passengers could board the platform till they built the overhead and the overhead had to be builit in the late 70's as I remeber in the late 1970's taking a walk to the East 105 th Street Station and using the overhead.
There's a publicly accessible driveway running between the tracks and the Federal Express facility from Stanley and East 108 St that leads into FedEx's loading docks; I suspect this is what remains of Turnbull Avenue. The John F. Kennedy Child Care Center/Abe Stark Senior Center is standing where Turnbull would have intersected with Farragut Rd. There's no trace of a street on the Foster Avenue side of the tracks.
Turnbull isn't shown on my 1945 Hagstrom. OASIS NYC shows a Turnbull Avenue with no width on the Foster Avenue side of the tracks; it's probably still a mapped street.
For some more fun, look at the cross street listed on the NYCT L Line Timetable at East 105 St :).
Mapquest shows Turnbull Avenue on its closest zoom. Mapquest is very accurate, it's the only map I've ever seen that shows the correct dead-ending of the streets near the Spring Creek, and also is the only one that doesn't show the fictional Plumb Beach Avenue in Gerritsen Beach.
If you click over to the aerial photo, it doesn't look like Turnbull Avenue is there -- although I've never been there, so I don't have a feel for what I'm looking for.
On the closest view, it does appear that two L trains are in the picture, though. This is the first time I've found a train on one of their photos that I can remember.
CG
The map shows Turnbull Avenue as very small and insignificant, in fact, it's only shown on the closest zoom. I don't see anything that would discount it being there.
I have seen a paved driveway leaving 108th at Foster next to the tracks some time ago (like a year ago), and figured that was the remnant of Turnbull.
>>>>For some more fun, look at the cross street listed on the NYCT L Line Timetable at East 105 St :). <<<<
The persistence of the ghost of Turnbull is amazing.
I wonder who the Turnbull it was named after was.
Now this looks like a job for me...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Maybe you can trace the old Canarsie and Rockaway Beach Railroad to see if there is anything left of it. I am curious on how they built the el and kept the service running in the meantime or did the train stop running while they built the el.
The persistence of the ghost of Turnbull is amazing.
Scooby Doo, WHERE ARE YOU?!?
--Mark
It was the only grade cross in the system until 1973. But, I've read some sources that say that E105th crossed the tracks until 1983 or so, and that's when the present platform was constructed. If that's true, what did they do between 1973 and 1983? Or, are those reports wrong and the present island platform been in place since 1973?
I don't recall the dates, Kevin, but, as Garytalky said, the gates remained for passengers only for quite some time after E105 St. was closed. The gates were only finally removed when the pedestrian overpass was constructed.
A photo in the nycsubway.org archives shows a street called Turnbull Avenue on one side, or either side, of the tracks before the grade cross was eliminated. Supposedly, Turnbull ran from Farragut Road n.e. to Stanley and 108th. Present Hagstroms still show it there! Was Turnbull eliminated when the grade cross was?
Turnbull was not a paved road. It ran on both sides of the tracks, so in a manner of speaking, you could say that the Canarsie line ran down the middle of the street in that area. Turnbull was driveable, at least on the east side, but almost noone ever used it, because it didn't go anywhere useful. Sometimes a car would park on the west side because there used to be a lunch shack there. Except for E105 there were really no streets there, just rutted dirt paths with names. E106 was built up on an embankment stopping short of Turnbull and the railroad with the idea that it might one day bridge the tracks. They had similar fantasies for E105 before they decided it would just be easier to close.
E106 was built up on an embankment
I should have said E104, maybe E103 as well.
>>JUNE 23RD, 2002
Saying a shutdown would catastrophic for some commuters to New York City, area senators are urging President George Bush to keep cash-strapped Amtrak running this week.
David Gunn, president of the troubled, government-subsidized rail line, has said service might have to halt Wednesday, unless the federal government steps in with $200 million in emergency aid. U.S. Senators Chuck Schumer, Democrat of New York, Robert Toricelli and John Corzine, both Democrats of New Jersey, held a news conference in Manhattan Sunday to call on the president to provide the emergency cash to keep the trains running.
"This is not a question of losing a few tourist trains through rural Montana that will inconvenience tourists; this is our economic infrastructure,” Toricelli said. “Without regular train service in northern New Jersey and New York, our economy will come to a halt."
"I would ask the administration,” Schumer said, “if Amtrak goes under, what's going to take its place? How are some half a million commuters going to get onto Manhattan island?"
The senators said 300,000 people in the tri-state area use Amtrak on a daily basis to get to work.
The trio called on Bush to provide the emergency aid and then develop a long-term subsidy plan to keep the railroad solvent.
Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta is set to meet with Amtrak board members on Monday to discuss a possible bailout. Mineta also says Congress should be prepared to help.
The Bush administration is also considering a drastic overhaul of Amtrak, including the possibility of selling the monopoly’s rights to some routes to private companies and ending service in unprofitable areas.
NY1 news<<
It's amazing. Bush would happily give money to the airline industry yet Amtrak has to suffer. I'm not a big fan of Amtrak since it's a monopoly, but this has to be the absolute worse time to leave Amtrak hanging like this. And if(or hopefully when)Amtrak is on it's feen then congress can do something about this monopoly.
I'd give my left nut to be a fly on the wall in the meeting room. Gunn's going to wail on them. Word up here on the news is that the Shrubbettes are STILL without a plan or a clue and Gunn's bringing the balance sheets and the bills. Sounds like a royal pything match.
UTU seems optimistic though that Gunn's going to unload both barrels and in the meantime, just about every politician is HOWLING since well ... it's ... election year. Whoops. :)
1975:
FORD TO NYC: DROP DEAD
2002:
BUSH TO NYC: BEND OVER
-- David
Chicago, IL
All (including Poppy) wartime prezzydents, all one term wonders. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Word. :)
Only reason why 300,000 commuters "rely" on Amtrak is because Amtrak owns/dispatches the NEC. Amtrak goes, NJ and NY will just pop in and run it instead. Big whoop.
Seriously, folks, everyone's making this look like it's the end of the earth. Next Friday, Amtrak or no Amtrak:
People will still be taking the train to work.
There will still be an NEC.
Penn Station won't be turned into a shopping mall.
The LIRR will still exist.
NJT will still exist
Metro-North will still exist.
All 3 will be running.
Train stations won't be shuttered.
Penn station won't be locked closed
Nobody is going to rip up the trackage on the NEC, or steal the wires.
If anything, a shutdown would be good for NYC:
NJT could get much needed locomotives and equipment from an Amtrak sell off, for pennies on the dollar.
Lack of Amtrak traffic in Penn will make dispatching NJT and LIRR trains easier.
Fewer trains will be running through the tunnels.
NJT will have full use of the NEC, thus allowing them to route around potential troubles.
A jointly owned Penn could be rebuilt to optimise for commuter traffic.
Frankly, after watching how fast Airtrain went up, I don't think a Port Authority control of Penn would be a bad thing.
Are you telling New York area residents to forsake a national passenger rail system for the sake of faster commute times? They could take all the time they save up and cash it in at the airport or sitting on I-95 as they try to drive to a 10AM meeting in Boston. Maybe they might be able to work longer and afford a portable Oxygen generator/gas mask due to all the SMOG in the air from the gas guzzling jets and SUV's.
You have to admit, 99% of all of the delays and problems on New Jersey Transit's rail lines occur on AMTRAK territory. The Raritan Valley Line runs flawlessly until it reaches Hunter Interlocking, where the delays begin. And the North Jersey Coast Line breezes along without a worry until the dreaded Union Interlocking, where "all hell breaks loose". While it is true that the Northeast Corridor handles more traffic and more passengers than any other line in the area, for whatever reason the Amtrak tower operators and dispatchers always seem ill-prepared whenever there is an equipment breakdown or signal faliure.
And that damn Portal Bridge! You would think, a rail line that serves MILLIONS of people would have priority over a lousy tugboat chugging through! That type of bridge being at that location is like having a grade crossing where the Coast Line crosses the Garden State Parkway near Matawan, and having the traffic on the Parkway stop for trains to come through!
If I'm not mistaken, there WAS a grade crossing that went across the GSP somewhere near Red Bank a long, long time ago. And it did stop the parkway when a passenger train went through not all that often. Wherever the Hallicrafters (ham radio gear) was, that was where it was.
And as to boats, I do believe federal law gives them the right of way over a bridge crossing ...
Federal Law gives boats the right of way over trains. Railroads are not allowed to obstruct navicable waterways with low fixed bridges. If you have a problem with the PORTAL bridge take it up with the feds.
Re: Dispatching, NJT riders paid $7 for their ride. Amtrak riders paid $50 for their ride. You're damn right Amtrak riders get preferance. If you don't like waiting, pony up the extra cash. On MNRR, Amtrak trains get shafted and don't think I'm mad as hell when $11 MNRR trains time the same to GCT as my $50 Amtrak train.
"You're damn right Amtrak riders get preferance"
Really? I waited 45 minutes between Back Bay and South Station due to rush hour trains (how I wish I got off at Back Bay!).
"On MNRR, Amtrak trains get shafted and don't think I'm mad as hell when $11 MNRR trains time the same to GCT as my $50 Amtrak train."
And here is an example of how Amtrak riders DON'T get preference! Fact of the matter is that there are more commuter rail trains than Amtrak trains, so they leave first, especially during rush hours (but at other times too). It was news to me that MNRR owns the New Haven Line. But since that is the case, of course MNRR trains will get to GCT before Amtrak makes it to Penn. -Nick
"Federal Law gives boats the right of way over trains. Railroads are not allowed to obstruct navicable waterways with low fixed bridges."
Which is why a new HIGHER bridge should be built.
"Re: Dispatching, NJT riders paid $7 for their ride. Amtrak riders paid $50 for their ride. You're damn right Amtrak riders get preferance. If you don't like waiting, pony up the extra cash."
BTW, I'm a trainman on NJ Transit, I don't have to pay. In any case, regarding the fares, why don't you compare the comfort of NJT equipment to the equipment of Amtrak? It's a "you get what you pay for" scenario, the way I see it. Also, Amtrak trains make many less scheduled station stops than NJT does.
And as far as being a competent tower operator or dispatcher, that has nothing to do with the difference in fares. NJ Transit pays "rent" to Amtrak, and are entitled to services similar to an apartment tennant who is entitled to certain services from the landlord. When the operator at Dock tower "forgets" to give Track 5 the signal when there are no other trains (Amtrak or Transit) coming through for at least 45 minutes, I'm sure he or she is not doing this because a passenger going to Roselle Park is only paying $2.15!
First, a new bridge at Portal would be impractical due to the need for long dragual approach ramps that would be about a mile long on each side which would mean completely rebuilding the Waterfront, Kearny and Secaucas connections. It would almost be easier just to lower the mean high tide of the water.
Second, if you want to talk about draw bridges, NJT is the king of draw bridges with 12, not counting DOCK or PORTAL. Most NJT lines go over two or more draw bridges, most of which are on the same river as PORTAL. NJT is just as of not more suceptable to DB openings as Amtrak is.
The dispatching problems you mention are not just religated to Amtrak, but persist throughout the rail world as a hole. In efforts to cut costs, railroads have given more and more territory to fewer and fewer dispatchers. This leads to trains getting forgotten or lost. Blame it on short run cost decisions which is a symptom of being funded on a sporatic basis.
You know, if your engineer called CTEC when he got stopped at the red signal to politely remind the dispatcher that he was there I'm sure you'd get cleared through quicker.
"You know, if your engineer called CTEC when he got stopped at the red signal to politely remind the dispatcher that he was there I'm sure you'd get cleared through quicker."
The signal I'm talking about is at the west end of Track #5 at Newark Penn Station, which is controlled by Dock. What normally happens is that either the engineer or the conductor will call Dock. But, all they have to say is "NJ Rail 5539 to Amtrak Dock", and that will usually remind them or wake them up, and the signal usually comes up seconds later.
"You know, if your engineer called CTEC when he got stopped at the red signal to politely remind the dispatcher that he was there I'm sure you'd get cleared through quicker."
The signal I'm talking about is at the west end of Track #5 at Newark Penn Station, which is controlled by Dock. What normally happens is that either the engineer or the conductor will call Dock. But, all they have to say is "NJ Rail 5539 to Amtrak Dock", and that will usually remind them or wake them up, and the signal usually comes up seconds later.
Oh please Mike.
Seriously.
This "Oh my god, the sky is falling!!!!" crap is getting out of hand.
People are just getting too damm emotional about this. This isn't a life or death thing for anyone, it's not a struggle against good vs evil, it's not even the end of passenger rail.
It's not even close.
Nobody is sugesting the NEC will go away. Even if the government doesn't run it, someone will step in and do it because there's money to be made. Ditto for any other routes that make sense.
What you're going to see is the death of the long distance routes that make up a small part of Amtrak's ridership and a big part of it's costs. And I suspect that either way, that's going to happen, because only a total idiot would give out money to Amtrak with no strings attached. And cutting hopeless routes is a string that's going to be attached.
Right now, a national system isn't needed anyway. What's needed are well designed, well run regional systems that can feed into airlines and cities. rail excells at that, especially the DMU equipment that is very popular in Europe right now. Rail can not, and has not been able to for decades, compete in the long haul (+500 miles) roues that Amtrak refuses to kill off.
High speed rail makes sense in places, but Amtrak had to be dragged kicking and screaming into Acela (just like the PRR had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the Metroliner). It was something they could have, and should have, done 20 years ago. But no, Amtrak's been too hung up on their hopelessly useless and impractical long distance routes to bother.
Long distance is dead.
Heavyweight, low power, low speed trains are dinosaurs from the 30's.
Today's trains are lighter, faster, higher powered, and cheaper to run than anything Amtrak has. They're downright practical - so much that private operators run them in Europe (with government subsidy). The sleeper car is dieing around thew world because it's too expensive per passenger to operate.
You reduce costs by reducing the number of workers involved with a train, and increasing the train's speeds so that you can move more people in less time. This is why high speed rail is so popular overseas. This is why DMUs are so popular. Nobody wants to run a 5 person crew 100 miles in 3 and a half hours, when they can run a 2 person crew 100 miles in 2 hours. Moving the same number of people.
Amtrak is dieing because the way Amtrak operates is impractical, obsolete, and not viable anymore. It's as simple as that.
Get over it.
"Get over it."
But then we would have nothing to talk about...
short of the Astoria el!
: ) Elias
Hmm, good point :)
But then we would have nothing to talk about...
short of the Astoria el!
lol....nahhhh, that didn't "get out of control".
I agree with all your points, Philip. However, Mike is right about I-95 and other highways crowding up more. I spoke with an Amtrak employee today, and he said that 28,00 people commute from Philadelphia to NYC on a daily basis (and NYC-Boston has plenty of riders too). I realize that if Amtrak shuts down, certainly passenger rail service will continue at some point. But however long that transition takes, the roadways (which Amtrak and other railways help reduce traffic on) will be worse for a period of time. -Nick
If you know how I-95 works (check a map and "follow" I-95) you know how how much of a shit things are going to be if 28,000 people try to drive from Philly to NYC.
Mike,
I-95 is five minutes from my home in CT (I was only in Boston for college). I know how the CT route works, and since it goes down south, certainly I know that I-95 and whatever other highways are there will be jammed..I've already said that. -Nick
I am referring to the I-95 "loop" around Trenton. I-95 litterally "can't get you from here" in relation to Philly -> NYC.
Ok. I wasn't referring to a particular section, but nontheless there will be more jams if Amtrak shuts down. -Nick
JM -- I believe the number of Philly-NY Penn Amtrak commuters is 2800, not 28,000. 28,000 would require far more trains than are currently running during the rush hours. Given that the 2800 are fairly well paid (you don't commute that far to work at Mickey D's), and everyone I've known who makes that trip is in the 6 figure range, they'll probably be able to take a few days off to let things settle out. The number of those 2800 who hop into a car and drive to NYC falls into the "pimple on an elephant's ass" range of issues associated with a shutdown of NEC services.
CG
CG-
I made the 28,000 mistake. The employee I talked to was prolly referring to a weekly basis instead of daily. -Nick
Yeah, but that elephant's ass better scratch that pimple if he knows what's good for the economy. Anyone want to venture a guess as to where most of those people WORK? Isn't DOW sufficiently in the toilet already? :)
If passengers were required to pay the true cost of air travel (including Kyoto style greenhouse costs) I think long distance rail travel would become appealing once again. Its 1/2mv^2 Jetting around at 500 mph is incredibly inefficient and wasteful. The United States consumed %25 of the worlds energy just because we can't stand to wait a few extra hours in getting somewhere. Mass air travel is is incrediblely wasteful and not sustainable. Untill we get everybody off this high-speed, machines-do-everything-except-pick-my-ass drug trip we're on this world's down the express track to the shitter.
Not to mention how do you think you're going to be able to railfan efectivly without Amtrak? Most parts of rail lines are pretty remote and i don't think NS and CSX are going to let you drive down the RoW.
Long Distance makes up 40% of passenger miles but not 40% of its costs
. It is not dead. You have no figures to back up your assanine claims, talking out of your asshole as usual. Long distance has better load factors as non-NEC short-hauls, has nothing to do with Acela and are SEPERATE issues. If long distance is dead, then so is the Interstate highway system whic takes TWICE as long to travel on for 500+ miles trips as a train because of hotel stops. The sleeping car is alive and well in Canada, USA, and Australia. The sellout rates speak for themselves.
There's far too much "Chicken Little" syndrome going on here at Subtalk. Folks need to get a grip on reality. This is simply a battle of egos which has become a game of chicken between David Gunn and the Congress. Gunn wants to run a national railroad. The folks who pay the bills have (rightly or wrongly) decided that he must cut out the long distance routes. 9 times out of 10, the guy who pays the bills wins such battles.
I don't take as optimistic view as Philip does -- the game of "follow the incentives" just about ensures a disruption -- but one must realize that even if trains don't run into Penn Station, or on the NEC next Friday, they will eventually. Probably in a matter of weeks. In addition, the Amtrak routes across the country which have meaningful ridership will also rise again in due time.
Further, as far as commuter chaos goes, the end of this week and all of the following week are probably the lightest for commuter rail outside of Thanksgiving and the week between Xmas and New Years. In the event of a shutdown, alternate services will get a break in period with less than half the normal load on many days.
There have been too many billions invested in the NEC to let it sit idle. If push comes to shove, look for Congress to authorize a new operating authority to maintain the tracks formerly owned by Amtrak. It will also have the authority to contract out operation of the trains.
The politicians on both sides are absolutely drooling over this one. Obviously, the conservatives see this as one more opportunity to look like budget hawks.
Don't be fooled by the current posturing (say much, do little) of the Northeastern Democrats, though. They're absolutely thrilled by the thought some type of brief commuter shutdown. Horrified by the post 9/11 surge in popularity of individual Republicans (Bush, Pataki, Bloomberg, Giuliani) in the northeast they see the inevitable restoration of service as a way to "show their leadership".
Good politicians realize that if everything worked smoothly behind the scenes, they'd be bounced from office as do nothings. Let a few problems develop and then "solve" them and you'll get reelected nearly every time. Look at our old "Senator Pothole". If he'd just authorized the funding to keep the roads smooth in the first place, he wouldn't have had any photo-ops.
CG
But the port authority isn't good with rails, look at path. Also the port autority has a nack of getting propriotory stuff which is VERRRRY bad.
#1 you can then DRIVE everywhere still..........!!!..........???
#2 ride the GREYHOUND BUS ............!!...........??
#3charter a BUS or Lemo ??.............!
#4go fly as a passenger on a AIRCRAFT ..........?......!!........?
#5ride illegal on a freight train ............!!!.......?
#6 hitchike ???..........!!!
#7 STAY HOME 2 HELL WITH IT ..............!!!...........??
***********************************************************
but no more commuter rail / amrtak !!!............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>>>>>>bummer !!!!!
@ even out west here all commuter rail service will B gone !!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...........?
A few good points, but are all the decimal points, exclamtion points, question marks, and stars really necessary? Not so sure about the hitchiking and illegal freight train riding ideas. -Nick
sorry ......... my apology just a litle ......not happy ..........
...etc......
Fair enough. (I guess). -Nick
Very true.
But knowing the old shrub, I'd bet you he's mess this one up too...like almost every other thing that's been during his presidency: Kyoto, legitimacy...The list goes on and on.
-J!
Just wondering, if the MTA happens to fall into a deeper hole, are they going to stop running trains at late nights?
Whatever is proposed, if anything, will be subject to public hearings. BTW, are we talking about NYC Transit, LIRR, Metro-North, any two of the three, or all three?
David
NYCT simply has to run overnight service. Too many city residents have no way of getting around without the subway, too many events and things take place at night. This isn't like Philly, where a shuttle bus will do. Not like DC, where everyone drives or at least things are within walking distance. Not like Boston, where there's no reason to go anywhere at night.
For many routes, shuttle buses ARE sufficient. Chicago runs 24 hour service, but not on all lines.
The budget gap is being papered over until Pataki's re-election. A massive fare hike is likely to be proposed the day after. We'll see if any fare hikes are proposed for the commuter railroads; as a result of the recent capital plan finanicing it is easy to move money between MTA transit agencies.
As for running busses overnight in place of trains, I have always been a big advocate. Recall that my proposal was a core rail network linked to special "night owl" buses.
But a surge in late night ridership has caused me to reconsider. If enough people ride, trains become cheaper than buses. Perhaps when ATS is finished in a decade or so, you could run half trains OPTO, so you could affordably offer more frequent service.
Still, I think buses would be better in the outer portions of some lines. Waiting around in deserted stations is still just too dangerous. The Station Agents don't even want to venture out of the booths, so what about the passengers?
True, I hadn't thought of a partial substitution of shuttle buses. In that case I can't really judge on this anyway since my only experience with overnight outside Manhattan has been with the 7 and Queens Blvd, both which seem to have high ridership during the overnight hours.
Never opened or unfolded. Map says "Contains Brighton Line Diversion Information".
First email with snail mail address gets it.
I wish to urge my congressmen and congresswoman to support a measure giving Amtrak the money it needs without the loan guarentee. Since I am short on time, are there any letters that other people have written and are providing to be sent? For other causes, I have seen people say "Please send this letter to your representative and senators if you can not write your own". Can someone lead me to such a letter?
A hand written, simple letter explaining why you think Amtrak is important and how you use Amtrak and how you enjoy the service would be extremely effective. If the Rep. sees such letters from "normal" people then it would greater emphasize the grass roots support from Amtrak. BTW if you live in DC you have no rep so pretend your're from Virginia (its more republican and hense needs more "urging") so send it from a PO in Virginia and give a return address of like your school in DC.
Think about this:
If Amtrak shuts down...
1. Commuter rail trains are halted bringing chaos to many urban areas
2. Airlines in heavily used rail corridors such as the Northeast and California are overloaded
3. Airport sercurity lines have to handle more people
4. More cars on the road
5. In short, there is complete chaos in the air and on the roads!
Maybe once everyone sees how important Amtrak is to the United States, its economy, and the standard of living of its citizens, it will get the funding it deserves.
Maybe I should start a pro-shutdown organization...
I agree, When they see all those problems occur and they have no solution, they'll have to give Amtrak money.
They don't have to do anything. Most likely, amtrak will lose MORE money. As for the chaos, i think it will be limited to the NEC (which will, most likely, NEVER go out of business). The only people who will lose is us railfans. Amtrak won't be missed too much (i remind you that amtrak was formed because the RR's didnt want to run passenger rail anymore)
P.S. How were the regents? I laughed all through the Bio
I'm gonna think positive, Amtrak probably will go on, I hope stronger than before.
what about the regents?
The Bio Regents was so easy, everybody thinks that regents are hard, they are just like regular finals.
How old are you guys? Just Wondering. Im 18 going to be 19 soon
Regents are easier than regular finals. It's because they're state standard for all of the dumbasses in the state.
Maybe once everyone sees how important Amtrak is to the United States, its economy, and the standard of living of its citizens, it will get the funding it deserves. Maybe I should start a pro-shutdown organization...
Be very careful. It's a double-edged sword. Maybe Congress would instead decide that having the national rail system under one management is too powerful, and decide to mandate that Amtrak must sell off its operations on a piecemeal basis with each piece being separately funded with separate contracts. In other words, the shutdown might give Congress reason to copy the disasterous British Rail Privatization Model.
AEM7
I know this thread's a few days old but I've been away and just now catching up. I read the link to Joe's site about the 76th Street station and have to admit I completely fell for it. Joe did a superior job creating the station, maps photos and everything. Kudos to Joe for this piece of fun and to the SubTalkers for pointing out the ruse.
Well I don't know about you SubTalkers, but I want the real truth, The station is on papers and on Boards but no one really know if it's really there now.
If nothing else, I think the station is there. But it has been sealed off. Exactly what is there, I'm not sure. Maybe the station is tiled in purple. Maybe it's bare walled. Maybe it's the new stashing grounds for Murder Inc. after Bob Diamond found the LIRR tunnel under Atlantic Ave near the East River! I guess we won't know for sure until someone sets up a railfan trip over there.
I wonder if there are man holes that lead down to the 76 St. Station, but If the TA decides to go down there, I wonder if they will consider fixing the station and opening back up for business.
Why would they do that?
There's a station at 80th Street already....what purpose would a station at 76th Street serve?
Who Knows, But it would be nice to know a little more about the Station, maybe they would have the C terminate there (I doubt that will ever happen).
Besides, the C already terminates at Euclid Ave.
Why spend all that cash to build and open a station at 76th., to terminate the C two stops down the road?
Well It was just a thought, I actually like the C terminating at Euclid Ave., I usually grab me a seat on the C train while waiting for the A Train to come.
We don't even know for sure it's there...I think this whole thing is gettting blown up out of proportion.
Who has spewed forth the gospel of devil?
There's a station at 80th Street already....what purpose would a station at 76th Street serve?
After Euclid the route would have split into 2. One would have gone to Grant then 80 St and eventually to Lefferts. The other route would have gome to Springfield Blvd. Next stop 76 St.
There's a station at 80th Street already....what purpose would a station at 76th Street serve?
If the line was built underground past Euclid, I would assume they would have abandoned the end of the Lefferts line
And the Rockaway line would have started just north of Aqueduct-North Conduit Station
Of all the other stations that were abandoned, none were walled away. Why would they make an exception here?
Maybe TA decided not to extend the line in that direction. So the tunnel was sealed up/
Still? Why would it need to be sealed up?
Maybe it was sealed up because TA decided not to extend the line along Pitkin after it was built.
You're still not answering me. Until you can, you cannot go on and say that the station exists. If the station shell was built, there would already be a wall to the east. There would be no need for another, especially since even station shells have to be entered for structural inspection.
Maybe it was to keep people from having access to the area. Be it homeless or kids or Murder Inc or anyever else would want to go down there. TA would be in trouble if someone unauthorized went down there and something happened.
Maybe there is a way for maintaince workers to get down there to inspect the station. Maybe one of the manholes on the street goes into the station and the manhole cover says "CON EDISION" to discourge railfans and others from exploring. Maybe there is a door near the bumper blocks that goes to the station.
The only proof that I can give about the existance of the 76 St Station is what I see on the control board at Euclid Ave tower. It shows a station called 76 Street. One stop after Euclid Ave. It was taped over as other unused and unfinished extentions of the IND were at other towers. The tape was pealed back and the station is shown in plain sight.
Let me ask you a question or 2:
>If 76 Street station doesn't exist. As in never built.
Why is the station shown on the board?
>The 4 tracks that go southbound from Euclid Ave. After the 2 yard leads to Pikin Yard and the 2 tracks that go to Grant Ave, where do those 4 tracks go?
Why is the station shown on the board?
Cross Bay Tower is also on the board. If it's shown, then it must exist, right?
where do those 4 tracks go?
They dead end. They're obviously there for train storage/turnaround/future provision, but the connection for Grant Avenue had to be cut further west than where they dead end.
Maybe the tunnel went further than 76 Street and there was to have been a tower around Pitkin and Cross Bay Blvd. I think there was to have been a turnoff for service to the rockaways. There are some wooded areas and ball parks along the westside the tracks between Pitkin and North Conduit. I've always wondered why no houses were built over there? Or the area never been leveled?
Future provision. Why would the beginning of the route be there if there wasn't a future provision?
Train storage. Isn't that Pitkin yard was built for?
Turnaround. Looks like sufficent turnaround facilities at Euclid Ave Station without having to build tail tracks.
I'll give you one thing. The tracks were built as part of an eastward extension and perhaps they were built far enough to clear the yard leads (so they won't have to be disrupted later). That doesn't prove 76th Street was built.
The board at Euclid Tower sys the next station stop is 76 Street.
That doesn't prove that 76th was built either.
Maybe it was never built. Probably what's there is anything from a finished station sealed off from the street and the line to a station shell also sealed off from the street and the line. But that's where the next station was to have been.
Why don't we just have a SubTalk field trip out to where 76th St. station should be and poke around for an afternoon? We can open up manhole covers, take seismic readings, and interview neighbors. I'm serious, with 20 of us out there doing all kinds of crazy things, at least one of us should be able to come up with concrete proof one way or the other. I recommend a Sunday. Or a weekday evening.
Juast walk around with clipboards, and act like you know what you are doing. No one will give it a second thought....
Don't forget your vest ... or if an AOL'er, a black teddy. (slaps self for doing this again)
Don't Forget:
Yellow Helmets
Yellow Flashlights on belt loops
Orange Safety Vests
Several Orange Safety Cones
I might as well call my father's brother's contracting firm (general residencial construction).
tthe more people the less paranoia. why don't we get those orange vests. I belive costco should have some or Grainger (correct spelling?).
>> Why is the station shown on the board? <<
Simply because at the time the board was installed it was thought that the station would be built shortly thereafter. The best-laid plans of mice and men don't always come to fruition. Is it intriguing-- sure. But it doesn't mean anything beyond that.
I think I saw a button or key marked "2 Ave" on the Manhattan-bound local track at Queens Plaza the other day. All that proves is that someone decided that a 2 Ave line is a likely enough possibility that provision should be made for it now. It doesn't mean that that button or key is actually connected to anything at all or that anything other than that was built.
Sound like the punch for the V. Terminal at 2 Ave.
It seems that way to me, too. There's no way for a train at QP to access the 63rd Street line, unless... You don't suppose they built a connection between 53rd and Second Av and forgot to tell anyone? What if they actually built the whole Second Av line and didn't tell anyone? ;-)
>> There's no way for a train at QP to access the 63rd Street line, unless... <<
Hey, I forgot about that! I was thinking of the turnouts on the 63 St line. But my point is still valid-- provisions for future extensions or lines may be no more than one actually sees. They don't necessarily imply anything more than a plan that may never be implented.
I was being facetious re: 2Av line & connections from 53.
>> I was being facetious re: 2Av line & connections from 53. <<
I know-- I had a good laugh myself. Hey-- maybe the 76 St Station is actually on the 2 Ave line rather than Pitkin Ave. Maybe after it was built at Pitkin, and it was deemed unnecessary there, it was moved to 2 Ave so as not to waste all the effort and expense that was spent building it. In fact, maybe we could save a bundle on 2 Ave by recycling closed and underused stations from other lines. It might make the difference between it being a dream and reality. After all, this is not without precedent; the entire Rockaway branch of the A is recycled LIRR trackage and stations...
AIIH! cramba
AIIH! carramba
Wouldn't the NIMBYs notice. Unless it was deep boar TBMed and the media and government cover-up the reports of noise.
it was deep boar TBMed
I assure you I had nothing to do with it!
76 st could have been used for relaying and storage.
I think it was more of a continuation of the Fulton Street Subway.
Well thats the rason there are stuff associted with it at the tower.
Has he been in here to discuss the station?
Where is Joe? They say that every Urban Legend has some truth in it. Maybe he can point out the factual parts from his elaborate hoax (which, BTW had me going big time!)
And I am still not convinced it was all a hoax.
Come on.....that's because you don't WANT it to be a hoax....after looking at that completely bogus picture, and malarkey about Air Force security guys, that you still believe there's something there???
That's the problem with legends....if the person who started the legend says that he was kidding, the hopefull faithful won't believe him.
Jeez.
Come on.....that's because you don't WANT it to be a hoax....after looking at that completely bogus picture, and malarkey about Air Force security guys, that you still believe there's something there???
The Air Force part of it reminds me of the UFO Roswell legend. Maybe that was the effect he was going for.
Since there doesn't seem to be any record of inspections made all these years, the station must have been built using alien materials and structural integrity technology. You can be certain that Dr. Bellows and Major Nelson are involved. Has anyone seen a blonde chick with a pony tail wearing a harem outfit, or a very confused housewife-type on tranquilizers who answers to the name "Amanda"?
No, but I heard there's a fancy little bottle on a desk near the track board.
No, but the Romulan cloaking Device experiment is working as planned.
--Mark
Maybe I wouldn't believe him if he says it was a hoax. But it would be nice to hear it from the source. I can ask him questions about the different things I've seen that suggest it's not a hoax. And if he can convience me that it was a hoax and tell ne why there just so happens there is a tunnel that contines eastward from Euclid and the tower board states a station at 76 St, fine.
But I'm hearing from everyone but him. He mades the statement and I'd like to hear it from him.
I don't think Joe reads SubTalk. Try nyc.transit or email.
But why else do you think he posted the page on April 1 and removed the link to it on April 2?
Actually he posted the site om March 31.
I wrote to him long before most others here knew about it. He is under the belief many others here share. If there are no records, it doesn't exist. The tower model board and the signals facing the bulkhead are just part of contracts that were to be finished with future considerations. He obviously made the page because of overwhelming demand. The station is like Santa Claus.
Santa is a myth. But he is based on Saint Nicholas who was very much real.
Ummm ... that's MISTER Nicholas ... Pope Paul VI ordered the feast of Saint Nicholas dropped from the official Roman Catholic calendar in 1969. In 1972, the mortal remains of Nicholas, no longer a saint according to the 1969 report to Pope Paul IV, were donated to the Greek Orthodox shrine of St. Nicholas in Flushing, New York.
source: http://www.uio.no/conferences/imc7/NFotm99/December99.htm
Really, wow, you learn something new every day.
Yeah, a lot of saints got "whacked" that year. :)
Well my real name is Christopher, and I know he got wacked out of sainthood also. One day you have a saint, the next day you don't.....lol.
Same for Mr. Valentine. :)
Sorry there is no Greek Orthadox church in Flushing. I know of a Russian Orthadox church that my grandma once went to.
Nearest Greek Orthadox Church I can thin of is 38 Ave and 99 or 100 St. I think it's Corona or East Elmhurst.
["Sorry there is no Greek Orthadox church in Flushing. I know of a Russian Orthadox church that my grandma once went to."]
Wrong. There is a Greek Orthodox Church in Flushing. St Nicholas on Northern Blvd & 196 Street, a couple of blocks w/o Francis Lewis Blvd. Its a church and a school.
I ment closer to main st. Anyway I know about it. Isn't there a IHOP near by and a Keyfood (different name now) MDs, and roosevelt ave (now a residential street) goes into Northern Blvd.
Sorry you had to answer that one, Sarge ... "Mr Know-it-all" is in my killfile.
As long as I ain't in your killfile, ace...
Mmmmoo. :)
Ha!!
Sorry you had to answer that one, Sarge ... "Mr Know-it-all" is in my killfile.
I have exactly zero people on my killfile list, but I am sometimes tempted to add a few people...
Here's a piece of interesting info about the 76 St. Station that someone e-mailed me.
To: AcelaExpress2005
76th Street is out there, under the streets and houses on Pitkin. It was built up in the 1930s
with the rest of the IND systems. Back then no one lived out
there, queens was the country back then. It was finished and
then covered over because of the war when money ran out. The plan was to uncover it when we got money. By then the street
had been built over it and houses were put there. It can't
be reopened without condemming private property and making
Pitkin avenue wider. There is no safe way into it either.
It is platforms and tracks, but maybe no tiles or real stairs to the street, all that was supposed to be done later. It may also have been built past 76 street in the same way, but no one will say, and it's dangerous to investigate, maybe station shells filled with dirt too.
One story told me that bmt lent ind train which was never
returned and didn't complain because it to be scrapped
anyway, train left past 76 street when 3rd rail work was
being finished. I don't believe it but could be there?
Some homeowners out there know about this when they do work
in their basements but no one has ever really made a problem
over it. We can't just go into there homes to investigate
tunnel. We tell them to just cover it back. But we will have
to explain a lot when the next big sewer job takes place on
Pitkin in 2003 or 2004. Like I said we can't buy up houses
now and throw people out because info 50 years ago was not
reported and properley saved.
One story told me that bmt lent ind train which was never returned and didn't complain because it to be scrapped anyway, train left past 76 street when 3rd rail work was being finished.
Details like that are especially funny. Do you have any idea in what detail organizations like the BMT kept track of equipment and personnel--little details like the name of the motorman of the first Brighton train into the new Stillwell Avenue terminal in 1919?
And they wouldn't care that a train was lent and not returned? (Not to mention that the line didn't open as far as Euclid until 1948.)
Oh, in case you were curious, the motorman's name was McKevin and he was piloting cars 1073 and 741.
(Not to mention that the line didn't open as far as Euclid until 1948.)
Euclid Ave didn't open until 1948. But the tunnel had been being built since the 1930's. The line first opened up as far as Rockaway Ave. But the tunnel kept on going. It was planned but it never was finished. Started and that's about all.
Douce Man....
If that station was there, we'd know about it, plain and simple.
We know about the extra Roosevelt station, the Utica Station, and the South 4th St. station. If we know about those, believe me, we'd know about 76th.
Somebody would have already been there, and wrote about it, and most probably taken pictures.
76th does not exist, it's a fantasy.
That's a good point but nobody else seems to have pictures of Utica or S4 St. We do have pics of Roosevelt (on this site.)
Go to Joe Korner's site....
He was inside the Utica shell, and has extensive diagrams on his site. You can go to Utica yourself and see the shell from the station platforms.
There are admittedly very few things known about South 4th Street, but it is there.
Yes, but no pictures.
You can go to Utica yourself and see the shell from the station platforms. There are admittedly very few things known about South 4th Street, but it is there.
That's the beauty of Broadway. Utica you can see.
I know I have personally seen pictures of the Utica Shell. I don't know if I've ever seen South 4th, but a lot of people claim to have seen South 4. I have yet to hear a reliable person say they ACTUALLY SAW 76th.
You have???
Lucky you....where did you see those pictures? On the internet?
On the internet I saw Utica. I don't remember which site. I don't think it was Brennan's site. When I get a chance I will look for it.
Sorry, I misread what you wrote, I thought you wrote that you saw pictures of S. 4th....you can see pictures and some very well made diagrams of Utica on Joe Korner's site...Joe Brennan links right to Joe's Utica page.
That's right. I never saw South 4th, only Utica.
Joe Brennan says that South 4th is just a big empty space, no platforms or roadbeds or lights.
Utica, on the other hand, is lit, plus it has roadbeds and platforms. You should check out Joe Korners page, it's great.
paste this in your browser:
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/indsecondsystem/uticaave.htm
check it out, it's worth it
Thanks, that was very interesting.
My pleasure.
South 4th has platforms and trackbeds. Not much else.
Thank you.
After I posted that (on Friday) I read an old report on nycsubway.org (on Saturday) about Roosevelt Ave. and South 4th St.
You are correct, according to the report there ARE platforms and roadbeds.
Roosevelt, Utica and South 4th are easily accessable from subway stations. Anybody with a little luck and the right key do a personal tour of the location.
76 Street however, is several blocks away Euclid Ave. It is not easy to get into the station. Unless there is a manhole cover or a houseowner at the corner will let you dig thru his basement wall, the only way you'll get to 76 Street is to walk along the roadbed from Euclid Ave. And I doubt if anyone in the tower will allow any unauthorized personnel to walk along there. So I think we'll have to wait until 2003 or 2004 before we'll have any definate answers.
So I think we'll have to wait until 2003 or 2004 before we'll have any definate answers
What's happening in 2003 or 2004?
I think it was an adjoining thread, There should be sewers built in the 76 Street area.
No, we have a definate answer in 2002...
No 76th St. station.
This whole thing is so completely ridiculous, it's starting to amaze me.
Stay tuned. It isn't over yet.
You really believe it's there, don't you?
I believe something is there. Be it a completed station with purple tilled walls with sealed off staircases To a station shell.
Do I have to dress in black and run down that tunnel with a video camera and nightscope? Or if someone emailed me which manhole it is.
If you can walk down the tunnel, better bring a pocket steam shovel. The area is sealed off.
sleadge hammer. Or could get some day laborers in MTA vests.
Might work.
Yes, but it is such a *nice* fantacy....
And give my age, I'll have to settle for that!
: ) Elias
Who would email you something like this? Unbelievable. Actually it is kinda funny. Heh heh. Congrats to whoever wrote that up.
Also, I was thinking that if there were tracks in this "station," it would probably show up on the NYCT track maps. Well it doesn't.
That's the Problem, I don't know who e-mailed me that piece of info, I thought I would share it with my fellow SubTalkers.
Well if you copy the headers from the email and paste them in a post here, I can tell you who sent it to you. It has to do with what is listed in the "From:" line in the email header...
I know the e-mail address, and I e-mailed whoever that person was, But until he/she e-mails bac, I cannot post the E-mail address to the public.
Ah, you're making all that up.
How the Hell do you know??????? I said I can't post the E-mail address without he/she's permission.
It just sounds like you're making it up
First you don't know who sent it, then you do only you can't say, etc.
Plus..that thing you say was emailed to you was so unbelievable I laughed out loud when I read it.
It was someone from SubTalk that E-mailed me, I don't know the handle all I know is the E-mail address, and I didn't write that E-mail.
Well, ok, but I'm telling you either way that was totally bogus.
The next thing you going to tell us that a R46 was shipped to South America.
The next thing you going to tell us that a R46 was shipped to South America.
Nah - get real... Outer Mongolia! Ulan Batoor needs them as Thomas the Tank Engine is getting a bit antiquated...
Why the hell is everybody getting on me??????? I just posted a E-Mail that was sent to me, Damn!
Why the hell is everybody getting on me??????? I just posted a E-Mail that was sent to me, Damn!
Don't worry, Acela, it's not personal, it's just whoever wrote that e-mail made some pretty incredible insights!
ok
I bet it was "Busfan" that sent you that email.
I read it a few times, and "Busfan" kept popping up in my mind....
If you want to end this, then post the dude's email address. Then slowly walk away from the computer for about 5 minutes. Then you can come back.
Why can't you tell us he's or she's e-mail?
It doesn't even matter.
It won't make it true, whether you know who sent him that or not.
It was just a jab at his crappy grammar.
If I really cared, I would of used the correct words.
I didn't get that, I see that now.
>>The next thing you going to tell us that a R46 was shipped to South America.<<
Ahhh.....I see you know that too !
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't say anything about the train with soft seats and tables that carried passengers in the subway in the 70's. (SOAC)
different rail guage?
You posted one of my pictures on this site WITHOUT my permission (remember the picture of the D-Type at 111 St?). If you are so interested in the 76 St station. Why dont you just start digging at 76 St and Pitkin??
I didn't know it was your pic, If I knew it was you I would of E-mailed you and asked.
The name of the contributor is clearly on the web page.
Not the E-mail Address!!
It doesn't matter, the only pictures you should post are your own....photographers are very touchy about people using their pictures without permission.
Oh Hell with it!
So who sent you the email?
I never saw the photo he posted, but are you talking about about a photo from this site? If so, I don't think it's a big deal, I know I wouldn't mind if someone posted a picture of mine that's on this site here. HOWEVER, if the photo was from another web site, then you have a right to be mad.
You thought the picture was spontaneously generated?
Obviously someone took it. It's up to you to find out who that is and to include an attribution.
Email is NOT private. Once someone sends off an email, they are acknowledging the fact that anyone and everyone on the entire planet can see their message in a matter of minutes. So if you really want to post this person's email address here so we can ridicule him, please do! You will be a hero! Honest!
The IRT had plans for routes in Brooklyn. Lafayette Ave and 4th Ave for instance. They are not shown on IRT track maps.
OK we'll wait until 2003 or 2004 and we'll come back to this.
That whole supposed email is complete and utter nonsense...how could it have been built in the 30's when Euclid Ave. wasn't even built until 1947-48. It's just stupid, I'm sorry.
Just like when the IRT was first built. At first there was nothing out there. You have seen the picture of the IRT concrete viaduct on Queens Blvd with vacent land around it? There ain't no vacent land around the site now. After the subway was built, people moved in and the area was built up. Same thing with the Euclid Ave area.
No, not true, Easy New York, Brownsville, and all those neighborhoods were already built up. That subway line was REPLACING the Fulton Elevated. Those neighborhoods were already built up and populated by the turn of the century. I know this for a fact, you can't compare the Queens Blvd line to East NY.
"At first there was nothing out there"
I'm sorry, that's simply not true.
By your logic, the area would have already been built up because the Fulton elevated was there at the turn of the century.
In fact, the Fulton elevated, from downtown Brokklyn to Lefferts Ave. was opened in 1888...50 years before the IND Fulton line was built.
Do you think that elevated line went through "nothing" until the IND was built?
Excuse me, "Brooklyn", not "Brokklyn".
1888?
The BRT Fulton Street El didn't make it to Lefferts Ave until 1917. The area was built up somewhat. But in the 1930's the area south of Pitkin and Liberty Aves wasn't that built up at all. Streets weren't planned and built until the 1940's. Most of Howard Beach that we know today was still in Jamaica Bay.
On the Manhattan Bound Side at Broadway ENY (A/C Lines), why is there a gate in the middle of the platform near the stairs?? And why didn't they install the gate on the Queens-Bound Side?? Thanks
-AcelaExpress2005
Im thinking its for crowd control............
I went on a trip today of the NJ Rt. 31 Railfan Corridor with stops at High Bridge, the Pattenburg Tunnel, both portals, and the Manunka Chunk tunnel.
While investigating the Pattenburg Tunnel (former LVRR) I noticed something interesting. This tunnel has recently (c. 1998/99) been single tracked for extra clearance. I had always thought that inside a tunnel the trackbed was balasted much like it was outside the tunnel and all the other tunnels I had walked seemed to back this up. Well in the P'burg tunnel the old double track bed was still visable around the sides of the current single track stone balast pile and surprise surprise if the darn thing wasn't affixed subway style to the floor of the tunnel. The tunnel has a concrete lining and the full sized railroad ties for both the former tracks were sunk almost completely into the concrete floor of the tunnel. The ties and concrete weren't that old so this type of fixation was probably used since the tunnel was built in 1927. I just thought it was interesting and you can see for yourself in the photo below.
BTW, due to the wind direction and the fact that bedrock is resistant to air tempature change, the tunnel was acting like a giant HVAC unit blasting out air that was about 60 degrees. Needless to say, on a day like today this cool air was heaven and standing around the tunnel portal watching my breath condense as I ex-haled made it real hard to go back to the car where my dad was baking waiting.
You mean they actually removed a track from that line? Didn't that significantly reduce service there?
- Lyle Goldman
It's a freight line. I can't imagine a pressing need to have two trains in there at the same time.
On the other hand, a single track allows for greater clearances on both sides.
I have read here and a few other places (Stan Fischler's "The Subway" being one) that at one end of the mezzanine of the Broadway station on the G Line, there is a stairway leading down to what (I am assuming) would have been the South 4th Street Station of the Second IND System.
What I would like to know is, are there any pictures on any websites or in any books of this stairwell?
If you go to the station mezzanine in person, can you get close enough to see this stairway?
I must confess that all the talk of the Second System lately has me very mesmerized...I had heard bits and pieces about the Second System in the past, but only until recently did I realize how much was actually done to provide for it to be built.
As an aside, sometime in the early 80's I rode out to Utica Ave. to meet a drummer and a sax player for a music project....when I got off the train, I noticed the overhanging station shell, and I was very confused as to what it was part of...I spent quite a few minutes looking at it, and again when I got back to the station to go home..when I got home, I looked at every transit and train resource I had, including the book "Uptown/Downtown" and could not for the life of me figure out what it was, but I would occasionally think of it.
It wasn't until I found this website and joined this board that the mystery was solved.
similar reaction the one time I was out there in the late 60's. OTOH last fall I deliberately went back to my default station from my time in NY (2nd & Houston) and they have gutted most of the evidence. The old boarded up stairways to the immense mezz are gone. its the anti-archeology police.
Back in 1988 I worked the Broadway stop one afternoon. I walked the length of the mezzazine. There was also an upper level for a closed booth. I saw an overhead sign that pointed to an exit at South 4th. I saw a large stairway at the end of the mezzazine that went up and continues straight ahead into the dark. I took a picture of what was ahead. But the pic just showed the passageway going off into a dark and dusty distance. I had a fairly good flashlight and wanted to keep going. But I went only as far as I could see platform lights from the G line. After I passed that mark, I lost the nerve to continue. I was back there a few months ago. Other departments of TA had built rooms where the mezzazine continued after the turnstiles. Perhaps there is a way to go down there. But I didn't have the time to explore again.
They have TWO locks on the double doors on the mezzanine. What dept. is back there? Secret Service? :-)
Even I tried to get in there. I inspect the tracks through Broadway on the G. I have keys to several locks and none of them work. I thought stations would have it but they don't. I think structure has the keys. Don't worry were ther is a will there is a way. I will get in there. When I do I will let you know.
The South 4th St. shell is above the active Broadway station. It is only as long as the Broadway station is wide. There is or was a writeup of it either on this website or elsewhere. Sorry to be so vague; I printed a copy when I stumbled onto the article. IIRC there were no stairs as such, just steep ramps which would have had stairs had that station been completed.
Joe Korman's writeup, with diagrams of the Utica Avenue shell, on the IND Second System.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From Kormans website....
"There were at least two separate plans for the connections to the east of the current Crosstown line. There a massive six track-four platform station (much like Hoyt-Schermerhorn) was built into the roof of the Broadway station. This was to be the main transfer point for converging trains."
Need.....pictures.....
There was an article written by a gentleman who actually toured the S. 4th St. shell. In his words, it was immense, which is saying something considering it's not even a full-length station. All platforms and trackways are in place, and the entire place is in pristine condition. It is inspected on a regular basis.
I'll have to dig that article out of my stuff.
When is the next time the station will be inspected?
It is inspected on a regular basis.
That's the key phrase about why I believe there probably is no 76th St station. All the other abandoned areas are inspected occasionally. There is no way they could just leave an open area underground uninspected for 60 years and not expect a "sinkhole" to possibly form on 76th Street. These areas need to be inpected occasionally. If it was there, someone would know about it.
If 76 St was built like Liberty and Van Sicklen and Shepherd, then there would be the columns along the roadbed. If the station was well built, then I doubt if there would be any sinking. Sinkholes usually happen when the soil and the ground under the street washes away. Where has that happened in the subway?
Back in the mid-50's there was a huge flood at Astor Place at 4th Ave, I believe that the roadbed on both the Lex line and the BMT Broadway line developed sinkholes.....
Yeah, the famous Wanamaker Dept Store fire. A gazillion gallons of water was involved.
The BMT Broadway line only suffered flooding. The trackbed DID sink at Astor Place on the IRT. One new R-17 was very nearly swallowed up. It had to be towed out with a long chain attached to a train.
Well maybe I don't mean "sinkholes", but they do inspect all the shells of other stations and abandoned areas from what I hear. Wouldn't it be necessary to have inspected the station at least once in the past 60 years or so to see if it's still structually sound? You would think that at least once in the past 60 years someone would have gone in there for whatever reason.
... they do inspect all the shells of other stations and abandoned areas from what I hear.
Every two weeks, according to a TA employee accompanying a Transit Museum trip I took a few years back that went into some closed areas.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To the best of my knowledge, the old polo grounds subway tunnel in the bronx by yankee stadium is NOT inspected. correct me if i'm wrong, but there's no doorway into the tunnel since they sealed it up a year or 2 ago. I went to both ends of it perhaps 7 months ago and there was no way in. Unless there's some manhole cover opening into it, which i rather doubt exists...
Come on, you can't compare that to the "76th Street Station".
The property that those remnants are on is private property now, not the MTA's.
The Broadway shell and the Utica shell ARE on MTA property, they're part of the stations where they are, so, like the REST of the station, they get inpsected.
The MTA is not going to inspect a tire shop or a laundromat in the Bronx just because 50 years ago it was a part of the subway.
Jeez.
Then who's property is the tunnel itself? who is responsible for the upkeep of a tunnel, which runs under a city street and past many residental buildings - a tunnel that was a part of the rest of the NYCTA subway system until it's abandonment? Did they sell the tunnel? Not that i'm aware of. Is it being inspected or maintained? There doesn't seem to be any way to do that which i know of.
It's city property, and if it some day caves and someone walking down the street dies as a result, you can bet the city will be sued and loose, and justly so.
It's city property, and if it some day caves and someone walking down the street dies as a result, you can bet the city will be sued and loose, and justly so.
Exactly, just look at the woman with the $14,000,000, and the TA wasn't even "at fault" as much in that situation.
I found the article and discovered that the link no longer exists. It was on this website, as a matter of fact: http://www.nycsubway.org/news/nyc/south4th.html
The author also wrote about the unused Roosevelt Ave. terminal.
You can get it at archive.org. Just paste in the url and click the button.
You might attempt an alltheweb.com advanced search, where you sequence on the URL.
This very long URL takes you to one I did:
You might attempt an alltheweb.com advanced search, where you sequence on the URL.
This very long URL takes you to one I did:
http://AlltheWeb.com/search?advanced=1&cat=web&type=all&q=&jsact=&l=any&ics=iso-8859-1&cs=iso-8859-1&wf%5Bn%5D=3&wf%5B0%5D%5Br%5D=%2B&wf%5B0%5D%5Bq%5D=www.nycsubway.org&wf%5B0%5D%5Bw%5D=url.all%3A&wf%5B1%5D%5Br%5D=%2B&wf%5B1%5D%5Bq%5D=&wf%5B1%5D%5Bw%5D=&wf%5B2%5D%5Br%5D=-&wf%5B2%5D%5Bq%5D=&wf%5B2%5D%5Bw%5D=&dincl=&dexcl=&limip=&age=&size%5Bp%5D=%3D&size%5Bv%5D=&size%5Bx%5D=0&hits=10&nooc=on
The link is still here.
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/qblvd/roosevelt.html
When I was there in 1988-89, there was a stairway. 5 "things" wide with banisters against the wall and 4 metal basisters seperating the staircase. My impression was it was built for heavy customer traffic. IIRC the stairways looked finished. But the area was dusty. When I got to the top of the stairway and started walking down a little, I was kicking up a cloud of dust.
Had it been built, S. 4th St. would have been one of the busiest, if not THE busiest, stations in the entire subway system. You would have had multiple lines converging and diverging. The closest analogy would be DeKalb Ave.
It also would have completely changed the development/housing price pattern of northern Brooklyn over the past 50 years if midtown/downtown access to the area had been made much easier than it is today, where re-devlopment has only occurred in the past 10-15 years thanks to the isolation of the BMT's Eastern Division from the rest of the system.
What was to be the layout of S4th St? Similar/Bigger than Hoyt-Schermerhorn?
It was designed as a six-track, four-platform station with a layout identical to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The Houston and Worth St. lines would have met at S. 4th and gone off as the Myrtle Ave.-Central Ave. and Utica Ave. lines.
Thanks, I thought I remember someone saying it was to have that many platforms/tracks.
The closest analogy would be DeKalb Ave.
It would have been interesting to see if this station caused a bottleneck in the way DeKalb does now.
--Mark
We need pictures, or a very good write-up.....
I really, really, really want to see and/or read more about the South 4th Street shell...
Does anyone think it would do any good to contact the MTA directly?
Or someone at the Transit Museum?
I can reprint the article I found on this website several years ago. A gentleman had the opportunity to visit both Roosevelt Ave. and S. 4th St. In his words, S. 4th St. was immense and pitch dark.
I would like to read that!
Enter this url into www.archive.org and you'll have it:
http://www.nycsubway.org/news/nyc/south4th.html
I can't thank you enough.....
Reading that confirmed all my ideas about South 4th St. station.
Again, many thanks.
Yes, please do, that would be much appreciated!!!!!
I never knew that the D Type Subway Cars shared a Truck, Check this Pic out of the D Type Trip 2002:
The D-types are true articulateds. The trucks underneath the articulation drums are trailers.
Oh Ok, I never knew that.
Oh my god, there are 3 cars on 4 trucks?! How did they do that???
How many GG-1's do you think the D unit can haul?
3 cars... 4 trucks....
seems like there's an extra truck?
Plus I'm confused because a "D" truck should have 4 axles, like in a DDA40X.
How much did the D TYPE cost??
Did they get a discount for the one less truch??
The Triplexes cost $25,000 apiece in 1927-28. Thanks to the articulated design, they cost less than a single BMT standard, which by 1924 had risen from $14,000 to $40,000 per car.
I don't understand those figures. A D unit cost less than a
single Standard? The D unit is the equivalent of TWO standards.
These are not the numbers I have.
In round numbers, pre-WWI Standards averaged $10K, this increased amazingly with inflation to about $24K for the 2800 series, delivered in 1922. The 4000 trailers extended the fleet for the opening of the 14th Street Subway and, without the motor equipment were a bargain at something over $21K.
The Triplexes averaged out at around $45K per unit over the entire fleet but the four 1925 units were alleged to cost nearly $300K for the lot, which I suppose included design costs and no economy of scale.
Thats my photo!! LOL
Oh Ok, that's a good shot of the D Type, I wanted to share it with our SubTalkers here.
Ok its no problem. I was shocked to see one of my (Many) photos. On this particular site :)
The R-38 overhaul thread made me realize something....
I happen to be very fond of the R-38 myself, and a lot of other retired cars types, but it IS a public utility, not our personal trainset....as subway nuts, we tend to forget that moving people is the number one priority, NOT our personal desires.
The best cars at the most reasonable prices, and the upkeep and improvement of the system is what's really important here.
I sometimes chuckle over the whole "railfan window" subject....do people REALLY think that that should be a concern when the TA is designing and buying cars?
Not only that, but I'm sure Train Operators prefer the bigger cabs...those old cabs seemed really uncomfortable, especially if you were going to be driving a train for hours at a time.
I hope some of you guys don't get very upset at me, but it seems a lot of the time we discuss things that we personally want as opposed to what's good for the system....I myself am guilty of this a lot of the time.
Other things are WAY more important than what we would prefer as subway fans.
I don't disagree with your basic point, but I do think it's in the TA's interest to develop a railfan culture. Many of us here were drawn to railfanning by the front window, and some really aren't interested in much else. No more railfan windows? Then we're the last generation of that sort of railfan.
Is it the end of the world? Of course not. Is it something worth taking into account? I think so.
BTW, if the only concern is cab size, it can be expanded lengthwise rather than widthwise without compromising the window. And even transverse cabs can be relatively railfan-friendly; it's the polarized coatings and coat hangers that destroy the view. (A low-tech curtain can take care of the light issue.) The view through two panes of glass isn't as clear as the view through one, but it's a lot better than what the transverse cabs give us now.
I don't think that not having a "railfan window" discourages a railfan culture....besides, they've given us the Transit Museum and fan trips, and have really gone out of their way to keep it alive. I mean, they're rebuilding and improving the Transit Museum as we speak, which I think is great. That's a LOT of dollars that could be going elsewhere in the system. I think it's in MTA's best interest to give their riders a sense of the history of the system, it hopefully gives the riders a sense of pride in the system, THEIR system. Again, the Transit Museum is for them much more than it is for us...most of us already know the whole history of the system. I mean, you and I know what a Triplex is, we don't need a museum to show us that, but schoolchildren and adults who ride the trains everyday do.
And by the way, I don't think having "railfan windows" is something that necessarily should be taken into account by MTA when designing cars...it reminds me how embarrassed I was when the Trekkies made a big stink about calling the first space shuttle "The Enterprise".
I don't think that not having a "railfan window" discourages a railfan culture....
I didn't say that not having railfan windows discouraged a railfan culture -- just that having railfan windows encourages a railfan culture. I can tell you that I probably wouldn't be on this board today without the railfan window experience, and I'm probably not the only one. The issue I'm most concerned with is initial exposure.
besides, they've given us the Transit Museum and fan trips, and have really gone out of their way to keep it alive.
Both of which are great for those interested in historical cars (as I am as well, although it's not my primary interest, at least not until the last Redbird is gone). They're of little use for those interested in seeing exactly how the tracks meet, what all those signals and little signs mean, etc. And in the case of fan trips, many of us here simply can't afford them, either in terms of time or in terms of cash. Let's see -- do I pay $1.50 to go wherever I'm going anyway and look out the front window of the train, or do I pay $35 (or whatever) and give up a full day to ride on a train with dozens of others who also want to be up at that window, so my chances of securing a spot there are next to nil? I think that many of us who are employed can't afford the full day and many of us who are unemployed can't afford the $35. And, again, for those of us who are primarily interested in seeing the tracks, not riding old trains, what's the point?
Incidentally, I just finished up a very similar discussion with another SubTalker by email.
I can tell you that I probably wouldn't be on this board today without the railfan window experience, and I'm probably not the only one.
I got my start on the Delaware River Bridge trains.
But really...what does the front "railfan window" do for transit culture? What is its importance, really? I say none.
All you're doing is pretending to be a train operator, you can't even really see anything important in the subways or els. If THAT interests you, you should become a train operator, rather than pretend to be one, which as far as I can see, has nothing to do with knowing anything about the system.
I got over THAT thrill by the time I was 15...after that, I stood in the doorways to look out the window and REALLY see the system up close..tracks, stations, yards, etc.
By the way, I got "subway fever" before the age of 5 because from my grandmothers back porch on the top floor of a three-story walkup in the Bronx, I was eye level with the tracks of the White Plains Road El, which was about 75 feet awat from her back porch.
But really...what does the front "railfan window" do for transit culture? What is its importance, really? I say none.
Tell that to the railfans who would never have been railfans without the experience of the railfan window. To you maybe it has no importance. To others it has quite a bit.
All you're doing is pretending to be a train operator, you can't even really see anything important in the subways or els. If THAT interests you, you should become a train operator, rather than pretend to be one, which as far as I can see, has nothing to do with knowing anything about the system.
There is a distinction between a hobby and a profession, you know.
I got over THAT thrill by the time I was 15...after that, I stood in the doorways to look out the window and REALLY see the system up close..tracks, stations, yards, etc.
Good for you! I hope you enjoy your view -- but it is a very different view from the one out the front, as you know. I enjoyed my view yesterday out the front of a rerouted C train as it went through the curves between 47th-50th and 59th -- a view not normally available to the public. How does the B/D track get past the E track west of 7th Avenue? Perhaps that question is of no interest to you, but it is of interest to me, and it can't be answered by looking out the side.
I don't get it. Different people have different interests. Why are we being told that a certain amenity of use to one category of railfan serves no purpose because it's of no use to a different category of railfan?
(besides, they've given us the Transit Museum and fan trips, and have really gone out of their way to keep it alive. )
(Both of which are great for those interested in historical cars (as I am as well, although it's not my primary interest, at least not until the last Redbird is gone). They're of little use for those interested in seeing exactly how the tracks meet, what all those signals and little signs mean, etc.)
Personally, I hope they try to retrofit some of the discarded cars as open cars similar to those used to tour the system when it first opened. Better than Disney -- or the expensive tourist buses.
(And in the case of fan trips, many of us here simply can't afford them, either in terms of time or in terms of cash.)
Can't help you there. Wouldn't want anything to drain revenue from service for the dishwashers of the world to get to work.
All I can add to this discussion is my own impression of riding a front car and seeing the railfan window all papered over. After our fan trip on the Triplex last May 27 I took the F train back to my Manhattan hotel. It was getting late but still light enough to see out of a front window if one was available. Alas, it wasn't and I was royally pissed off the rest of the way. Just a little thing you say? Maybe----but I'd bet dollars to donuts that many of you out there would have the same reaction as I did. Railfan windows make the trips more worthwhile and more interesting. Period.
Here I have to agree ... even though I did the cab thing for a while, I always would get as close to the front glass as I could if someone else wasn't there. Makes the trip go a bit faster and less boring. When Nancy and I went for a ride, we were both MIGHTY honked off with that cheapass lightshow plastic over the front window that obscured the view completely - on others, no view at all. Fortunately, a few of those rides were with friends in the cab and that sorta made up for those where we were regular geese.
Granted, the TA doesn't OWE us a window, but it would be nice if the tradition could continue - either through REAL glass or a TV screen of it in the car somewhere.
I feel that it's "the little things" that make the subway a gret place. I'm sure I would still like the subway if there was never a train with the railfan window, but it does add to the experience.
A few weeks ago I was riding the J train and was heading east. It just so happened that I wound up in the first car, as i wasn't even thinking of standing at the railfan window. I noticed it was empty, and figured it was a long time since I "rode the window", so I did. I forgot how much I enjoyed doing that. I loved doing it with my father, and I would always beg him to go to the first car. I remember my first trip across the Williamsburg when I was about 4 looking out the front of the train.
Anyway, I was just really starting to enjoy it after a few stations, and all of a sudden about three little kids came running into the first car at one of the stations, towards the front. They were jumping up and down all excited, and trying to see past me. I said to myself, "all well", and gave up my spot. The look on their faces was priceless. They were so excited, and it reminded me how much I used to enjoy that when I was a kid. As you get older, we sometimes forget "the little things" that got us excited about the subway. Sure, I only got to ride the "railfan" window that day for a few stations after not doing it in quite some time, sometimes you have to look at things through a child's eyes to see how much you really enjoy certain things.
Nice move and story my good man! I was reminded of times in my childhood by it, and times of disappointment too. It reminded me of some putz on the Lake St L in Chicago back in 76 who couldn't give my then ten year old son a spot when he could have easily seen over him. If there is an almighty I'm sure these little acts of kindness are remembered in the great beyond.
That's really a beautiful story, especially since I'm a father and have been a kid, obviously....
Maybe I was a little hard on the "railfan window", I understand that it's very dear to some folks.
Personally, I hardly EVER look out the railfan window. I could probably count on my hands the number of times I've looked out the front. It's not even that cool, the train usually isn't going fast enough to make it thrilling, and after the first time on one line, you've seen everything you're going see. The one good thing is that in the tunnels, you can see lots of sparks coming from an oncoming train.
So you don't enjoy looking out the front. Big deal. Others clearly do.
Your point?
I'm saying that some railfans find other ways to enjoy subways than just looking out the front. You're assuming that there will be less railfans because of no railfan window. Just looking out the front does not make a railfan. 99% of ralfans (we know who that other 1% is) are interested in other aspects of subways in addition to the front.
Rob, read my response to his post...it's almost the same as yours. :)
Thanks.
I'm saying that some railfans find other ways to enjoy subways than just looking out the front.
I never denied it.
You're assuming that there will be less railfans because of no railfan window. Just looking out the front does not make a railfan. 99% of ralfans (we know who that other 1% is) are interested in other aspects of subways in addition to the front.
What about those railfans who only developed their other interests after having ridden at the front and would never have developed them otherwise?
I think his point is, that just because you and others like looking out the window, doesn't make you instantly a subway fan...
Anyone can enjoy looking out that window, thousands of kids and a few adults have been doing that since the subway was built...does that make every single one of them a railfan?
Does that make others who don't, not railfans?
I've learned that people should do what is in their best interest and I will mercilessly campaign for the cars I enjoy even if it means a complete system implosion.
Well, at least you admit it and are aware of it.
One thing against transverse cabs! You can fit another 6 people on the train! That means more people per car as average. Also that means you can run fewer trains (not sure) eventually.
Can someone tell me how much was the R-32, R-38, R-42, R62/62A, R-68/68A, R-110A/B, & R-143?? Or is there a website, any information is greatly appreciated. Thanks
I remember years ago when the R-32's first debuted. An article I read stated that the cost per car was $114,600.00 each. A bargain by today's standards.
Bill "Newkirk"
The MTA had a Good Bargain at that price for the R-32's.
You're forgetting inflation.
But the R-32s were a bargain anyway. Budd intentionally underbid on the contract in order to get the MTA to order superior Budd-built stainless steel equipment. Had Budd not done this, the MTA would have ordered standard steel equipment from the St. Louis Crap Company.
Nevertheless, the MTA didn't learn it's lesson on the superiority of stainless. The next order, the R-38 from St. Louis consisted only of stainless steel walls, put regular steel roofs and frames. That's why those cars will go prior to the R-32. The next all stainless steel cars will be the R-46.
While nothing has been written yet, I believe that the R-32 will outlive the R-44 (if the R-160 has enough cars to get rid of the 32 or the 44, it will be the 44).
Not according to NYCT, but then again they're only the ones running the trains.
David
David, is NYCT's decision on this carved in stone or might it be subject to the condition of the R32s and R44s upon the arrival of extra R160s (if extras are ordered)?
The base R-160 order is for 660 cars, which are expected to be ordered this year. There are options for up to 1,040 more, for a total of 1,700 cars if they're all bought. At this point the plan is to replace all of the pre-R-143 60-footers (and bump up the fleet size slightly), but since the cars are planned for delivery over a period of many years and they haven't even been ordered yet, of course things can change.
David
The R-160, will some of them arrive by the end of the year? And if there is a option order, then that will be the largest order of subway cars in MTA history.
It's not physically possible for any R-160s to arrive by the end of the year. They haven't even been ordered yet, for Pete's sake! It takes several months for the winning bidder to order components from various manufacturers and set up a production line. Figure 2 years or so from contract award to delivery of the first set, followed by several months of testing (culminating in the 30-day acceptance test, which will take as long as it takes) before delivery of the fleet starts.
David
I know they haven't been ordered yet, I know they are supposed to be ordered this year and I thought maybe the first trainset would arrive sometime in December or the beginning of January, but I forgot about the bidding and testing, etc.
Let's get back to the main point here. I had heard that the average subway car life was 30 years, but with MDBF up over 100,000 miles, they are now saying 50 years. Say a typical automobile lasts 15 years, carries up to five, and costs $20,000. That is equivalent to a vehicle that lasts 50 years, carries up to 140, and costs...$2 million. I think the subway cars cost about that much.
BTW, to inflate 1964 dollars to the present, you'd have to multiply by at least six. At that price, the R32s are still a bargain.
I've always figured about 40 years. 30 years isn't much hence the R30 "mistake". And 50 years is too much, look at the birds. I think they planned out 40 years with the old cars that's why there was a GOH after it's 20th year.
Going back to the 1950s if not before, NYC subway cars were intended to have a life of 35 years. Where that figure came from (why not 34? why not 36? why not 40? why not 12-1/2?) is lost to history. Some people say that it has to do with how long it took to pay off the bonds floated to buy the cars (not quite logical, seeing as -- far as I can tell -- nothing was bought that way pre-R-32 and R-36*). In any event, the "redbirds" were subjected to conditions not envisioned when they were bought -- repeated applications of paint of dubious quality (the graffiti) followed by repeated acid washes -- and they still lasted 40 or so years, albeit with a mid-life (really somewhat after mid-life) overhaul. As I said earlier in another thread, the GOH program was designed to catch up after years of neglect, ensuring that the cars would REACH their intended service lives, not to extend their lives past what had been envisioned when they were bought.
*Per the 1962-63 NYCTA Annual Report, in 1962 the State Legislature gave the then-TA permission to sell up to $92,000,000 of revenue bonds to buy 724 subway cars. Those were 424 R-36s and 300 R-32As, which were purchased with a total of $89,000,000 in bonds.
David
Where that figure came from (why not 34? why not 36? why not 40? why not 12-1/2?) is lost to history.
No it isn't. 35 years was the "planned obsolesence" lifespan of the cars as ordered. I was first aware of this with the R27 order, but it probably goes back somewhat earlier.
The concept is that the car is designed so that all the significant parts of the car (or cycled replacesments) will last for 35 years and not much more--i.e., you don't design a body shell good for 45 years on an undercarriage good for 30.
Nowadays we might use a term like "economic life."
Even so, why was _35_ years envisioned? Chicago uses 25 or 30 if memory serves (though CTA is currently operating some cars -- the Budd 2200s -- that are older than 30 but were rebuilt). Some transit system operators use a longer life, some shorter.
David
There was a TA "study" in the mid 1950's that came up with the 35 year figure. This study supposedly balanced the costs of new equipment vs. the progressively higher costs of maintaining older equipment to come up with 35 years as an "optimum" cost effective figure. Of course, the relative capital costs and maintenance costs have changed over the last 45 years but the 35 year figure has not been reviewed.
OTOH, the 35 year figure was a very convenient number for the TA back in the mid 1950's. It justified the TA's new deferred maintenance policy. It was sufficiently low to require immediate replacement of almost all the IRT and BMT equipment. It was sufficiently high so as not to raise too many questions regarding comaparison with how cars were maintained by the private companies.
The private companies had an economic incentive to maintain old cars rather than buy new ones. The TA had and still has an economic incentive to purchase new cars rather than maintain old ones.
Couldn't have said it better myself. :-)
And, of course, the TA's additional economic incentive when they came up with "planned obsolescence" was that new cars were purchased by the City while maintaining them came out of the TA's pocket.
When I worked in a printing plant in the 70s, the guys there all owned two cars for their families (one to commute, one for the household). Autos were much cheaper then (even in constant dollars) but much more poorly made. They bought a car every two cars and sold an old car every time they bought a new one. Because they knew they would keep a car only four years they never maintained them very well. Just the basic oil change and fix 'em if they broke. This was their "planned obsolescence."
It's also why I never bought a used car.
My feelings exactly.
When new equipment is purchased by the City of New York, how does
is the debt service on that accounted for?
The City used to buy the equipment and service the debt. I think it's more complicated now that they have fare-backed bonds and such.
And, of course, the TA's additional economic incentive when they came up with "planned obsolescence" was that new cars were purchased by the City while maintaining them came out of the TA's pocket.
The private companies had a similarly perverse economic incentive to keep old equipment running. Their operations were regulated and operating profits were shared with the city. They set up unregulated subsidiaries whose profits were not shared to do their maintenance. They charged themselves top dollar. Con Ed and NY Telephone used the same accounting gimick.
Don't they have more of an incentive now with OPTO and all?
And the Union is going to try and get in on the process. There are a few unsafe design flaws (for the TO) on the 143 that need to be addressed.
Betcha I had my mitts on one of them ... that little thing at the bottom of the window perhaps? The thing with the (ahem, kaff) "armrest"? :)
That is another complaint mostly by the leftie TOs.
But since you sort of asked nicely... the end chains are locked in a recess. While the second step helps it is still not fun to open that up. OK now everything is new and clean but cuts and adds on that thing will not be too fun in a few years.
Gotcha ... yeah, I can see that being a real problem too. If I recall, there was another car class with bizarro chains too - maybe the 40's ... it was "after my time" and never got to play with the cars in question. Another advantage to the oldies was the conductor steps were there and the chains were out there too. Just had to move them from the doors to the eyelets on the other cars. The pant gates WERE a handy thing to have.
What killed them? People climbing over to get on the train?
There is NOTHING in the world like a rusty 44 chain!
There were two chances to lose for the geese - the outer pant gates might snap on ya (they weren't hard to move) or the drop hooks on the gates for the doorways were a bit bent and would fall sometimes if you tried to climb the chains. On the door chains, you had to know where the notch was to open it (same logic as the brake handle slot, you had to turn the chain hook to the slot to be able to lift it) but many of the chain hooks were bent, didn't seat right, the flange was worn away and all sorts of things where the top and the bottom of the chain hook didn't mate with the hole. And rusty? Heh. Bad chains never got fixed. Just wasn't a priority unless it had to be replaced.
Are the R-46s in fact all-stainless steel?
The interiors are made of plastic.
Yes they are. What about the rest of the cars - roof, underbody, etc.?
Read the original post.
>>But the R-32s were a bargain anyway. Budd intentionally underbid on the contract in order to get the MTA to order superior Budd-built stainless steel equipment. Had Budd not done this, the MTA would have ordered standard steel equipment from the St. Louis Crap Company.<<
Sorry to correct you Pigs, there was no MTA in 1964 when the R-32's were built and delivered.
Bill "Newkirk"
It was the "TA" I belive it was orange T with a blue A. The TA was literally NYC Subways Inc. They didn't have anything to do with busses or own any or operate or had any control over. Also it wasn't LIRR or NHRR or NYCentral. It wasn't SIRT.
It was just subways, it had no aliences or contracts with any other transportation providers.
In 1964, it was indeed New York City Transit Authority (NYCTA) with no MTA overseeing it. The logo had a blue "t" and a red (not orange) "a" (lower case). NYCTA, then as now, ran buses in Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens, and Staten Island, and its subsidiary, MaBSTOA, ran buses in Manhattan and the Bronx.
The same was true in 1963, when the R-32s were ordered.
The Long Island, New York Central, Pennsylvania, and New Haven Railroads were all separate entities.
David
>>The TA was literally NYC Subways Inc. They didn't have anything to do with busses or own any or operate or had any control over. Also it wasn't LIRR or NHRR or NYCentral. It wasn't SIRT.<<
It was the New York City Transit Authority that all to do with subways and buses before the MTA started in 1968. The LIRR, NY Central and New Haven RR were privately owned before MTA. The SIRT was owned by the B & O Railroad.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ok using a CPI of 31.5 (1965), and assuming the price of those r32s was $114,600, I think the adjusted price for inflation for each R32 is $363,809.52. Still a bargain regardless. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
When those cars first went into service, they actually had Public Notices in each car, taped to the windows, introducing the "Brightliners". It stated $114,700 -- a hundred clams more than the article you read. Maybe it cost the TA a hundred bucks for the PR to inform their passengers!!
Train Dude posted this to "The Other Side of the Tracks" on 3/26/2002; it's one of the posts I kept:
R-14 $71,487
R-15 $77,587
R-16 & R-17 $121,422
R-21 $102,871
R-22 $106,699
R-26 $107,157
R-26 GOH $187,876
R-27 $119,227
R-28 $114,495
R-28 GOH $172,000
R-29 $110,842
R-29 GOH $306,000
R-30 $121,663
R-30A $121,563
R-30/R-30A GOH $317,000
R-32 $114,857
R-32 GOH 476,000
R-33 $108,500
R-33 GOH $381,000
R-33WF GOH $195,600
R-36 $110,536
R-36 GOH $164,000
R-38 $111733
R-38 GOH $400,000
R-40S/R-40M $111,793
R-40 GOH $399,000
R-42 $132,670
R-42 GOH $428,000
R-44 $211,850
R-44 GOH 548,000
R-46 $275,381
R-46 GOH $464,000
R-62 $918,293
R-62A $798,770
R-68 $915,000
R-68A $915,000
R-110A $915,000
R-110B $2,167,000
--Mark
Thanks for that Info!
The new R142, R142A, and R143 are in the neighborhood of about 1.5 million.
Those GOH prices are a stunner ... even considering inflation. It's like my Ford Bronco is now 12 years old, and it's costing me some money just to keep it patched together, but it cost me $18,000 new. Can you imagine instead of spending $300 for this or $500 for that, my sending it for a GOH and getting a bill for $40,000?
Those prices are not that unreasonable. During the time of the
major fleet GOHs in the late 80s and early 90s, the price of new
subway cars was $800K-$900K and the GOH price was half that.
Your Bronco may have cost $18,000 in 1990 but if you had to replace
it today it would probably be $25,000. GOH'ing it and spending
$12,000 is not so bad, and it goes a lot further than just patching
this or that. Basically you're getting a remanufactured car with
all of the fail-by dates of critical components reset to 0.
Inflation going back over the past 12 years is not very high.
However, between the 1960s and 1990, there were several periods
of extremely high inflation. An R46 at $275K vs an R68A at $915K
is, I think, slightly below the CPI ratio for those years.
R46 (1974) $275,000
R68A (1988) $915,000
$275,000 in 1974 is $704,622, according to the "Inflation Calculator" at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi.
Also: $10,000 BMT Standard in 1914 should be a $172,077 in 2001. Now that's an eye-opener. Now, I know there's a lot more expensive stuff in an R143 ($1.4 million each?) but you could get a 8-car train of standards ($1,376.616) for less than a single R143/
Even if you do an inflated 1922 Standard at $24,000, you a 2001 price of $229,074.
Well, for one thing I take those inflation calculators with a grain
of salt. Not everything inflates at the same rate. Over the
long term, these comparisons become absurd. A factor of 17 from
1914 to the present? Transit fare has inflated faster than that.
So has real estate. The cost of a local phone call has not.
In 1914, there were about a dozen US manufacturers of trolleys
and transit vehicles. Now there are really none. So, competition
plays a role. The TA is basically down to two vendors, both
foreign, although I'm surprised Siemens doesn't seem to be a
player.
Another factor to consider when looking at costs for BMT equipment
is what did that price include? The BMT was fond of ordering car
bodies and installing trucks, motors, controls and brakes in their
own shops. I don't know if that was done for the entire Standard
order? If so, was $10,000 the true price of the car?
If so, was $10,000 the true price of the car?
These are figures I copied from original BMT sources. Comparison with other prices for equipment going back to about 1900 and forward to 1928 suggests these are reasonable for fully-equipped cars. The fact that the 4000 trailers (1924) come in cheaper than the 2800 motors also boosts the assumption.
Your points are valid, but let's face it. Transit equipment is a non-competitive, taxpayer boosted non-market.
I don't know if that was done for the entire Standard order? If so, was $10,000 the true price of the car?
The original cars for Boston's Red line cost $12,000 in 1912. The BRT's $10K price does not seem that unreasonable.
Does somebody have the years for the overhauls? I'm compiling a table in constant dollars and want to include the GOH numbers. BTW, in 2001 dollars, the cost of cars has risen 4 fold from the 1949 R14's to the R142's. Thanks in advance.
The Second Avenue Subway has been for over 80 years somewhat of a Holy Grail. Proposal after proposal and initiative after initiative has been taken to construct the badly-needed subway line to serve the East Side of Manhattan. In some places, such as between the Bowery and Chrystie St., East 99th to East 105th Streets, st 110th to East 120 Streets, existing tunnel sections built for the subway will be used in the final construction. A ign that the Second Avenue Subway might soon become a reality was the recent noise and vibration testing of buildings along the proposed tunnel route.
I can't help but wonder why something like the old Burlington Zephyr, or a better version of the Amtrak Turbotrain, couldn't be the train of the future for long distance service. My rapid transit mentality applies here: quit all the grand style stuff as by nature and the amount of patronage it isn't cutting it. I definitely don't mean regressing to the comfort level of Greyhound busses, not necesary here. Short trains, perhaps 5 cars with a smaller locomotive; fast acceleration and stopping.Get's past speed restrictions quickly, zips in and outof statons and able to make more stops such as every 25-30 miles, perhaps one minute's dwell time in stations. This offers service to a lot of smaller town that are presently passed lets say after Billings MT...Laurel, Columbus, Big Timber, and Livingston. This is one of many examples...that's 4 stops in 115 miles, where Livingston was the next stop after Billings when we HAD a passenger train. This would offer service to some 10-12,000 people at intermediate stops, it might even make the train attractive convenience wise. You could even have more than one train a day, etc etc.I'm aware Greyhound scarcely does any business at a lot of such towns but hen that's another story. And please, I know a lot of you will scream NO in protest, but a smoking lounge is in order, behind the engine perhaps where nobody else has to go thru. It IS a relaxation to some and not an unreasonable acomodation to ask...or have smoker and nonsmoker cars like they used to.I'm sure it would bring some extra patronage, and I'm not saying it has to be where anyoe else will be affected. Pipes and cigars too..one stink no worse than the other. Roar into Miles City, Forsyth, Custer, Columbus or wherever...remote control doors open...bing bong....on the road again. Still be fsater than how they do it now. Yonkers, Harmon, Peekskill, Beacon, Poughkeepsie,etc.
So why not just take these "Greyhound" comfort level trains off the rails and onto the interstates? Let's shut down Amtrak and make all the employees bus drivers instead. What a great plan.
"My rapid transit mentality applies here: quit all the grand style stuff as by nature and the amount of patronage it isn't cutting it."
1) Re. grand style:
Have you ever RODE a long-distance train?! They are more comfortable than flying -- although a seat on the subway is more comfortable than flying, so that's not saying much. But I would describe the conditions as BASIC comfort. Not within 20 light years of "grand style"! The coach seats have realistic legroom and, umm, ass room compared with airplane seats, and are reasonably comfortable for long journeys, but nobody's going to confuse an Amtrak seat with a Lay-Z-Boy anytime soon. Tiny bedrooms where you can barely turn around. Even tinier washrooms. One shower per car for the economy sleepers. Yes, the diner involves real food on real plates with real metal utensils at a real table. But the meals are what you'd get in a typical corner diner, not some fancy luxury restaurant. And yet you pay a good bit more than typical corner restaurant prices for the food if you're in coach.
All in all, the train is more civilized than flying or driving, but it's NOT a cruise train. Take Amtrak, take the American Orient Express, and THEN tell me that the Amtrak long-distance trains operate in "grand style."
2) Re. amount of patronage:
It's almost wearying to keep pointing this out, because so many people keep throwing out the unsupported "fact" that nobody rides the long distance trains: the long-distance trains ARE well-used. In the busy seasons (summer, around Thanksgiving, around Christmas/NewYear's), they are FULL!! And many of the coach seats are used by two or three or even four different passengers as the train crosses the country and some people get off while others get on.
Thanks for your thoughts on a smoking lounge..some trains do and some don't. I think the California Zephyr was totally non for one and that's grossly unfair. But the meat of the issue is the Grand style. I guess what I really meant was the big limiteds of better days in rail travel. I'll still argue the point that Amtrak coach accomodations are th best anywhere in our nation...as you already know better than flying and as I know better than bus.And as good as anything I rode in Europe.What you say about sleepers is why I won't pay extra for one. Agreed, meals.not bad but skimpy. The whole system leaves a lot to be desired but still nicest way to travel. Thankfully the long distance trains as well are well patronized, I'm quite aware, but I guess my point with smaller trains was for growth prospects and flexible service. Could have 2 or 3 daily instead of one a day, in too many cases leaving about 2 or 3 AM and what do you do when the d--- thing is hours late? At least a few more stops and perhaps new sevices...where you don't have to go over 100 miles to the train and leave at an ungodly hour. Would it succeed? I wouldn't swear to it but it may be what is needed. But then again his is America.
"Could have 2 or 3 daily instead of one a day, in too many cases leaving about 2 or 3 AM and what do you do when the d--- thing is hours late? At least a few more stops and perhaps new sevices...where you don't have to go over 100 miles to the train and leave at an ungodly hour."
When you put it that way, I agree with you. Every route should have at least two trains a day so that each station always has at least ONE train at a decent hour. And there are routes screaming for service that don't have it now because Amtrak lacks both the equipment and the money to pay the freight railroads to use more tracks. Chicago to Florida via Louisville, Nashville, and Atlanta would be a good route, as would a Dallas/Ft. Worth to Denver line.
My personal belief on how to do it is to take existing and proven train designs and start ordering more (when the money is available), avoiding the delay and expense caused by designing a whole new train.
*For routes not serving New York, where bilevels can be used, the Surfliners developed in California are excellent. I know they can be used alongside Superliners in the same train. IIRC, they are cleared to operate at 110mph. They were designed for the California corridors, so clearly corridor operations could begin ordering new cars "off the shelf" as soon as the money is available. As to long-distance routes, new production could include Surfliner sleepers and diners. Superliner sleeper compartments were built separately and installed in unfurnished Superliner cars to make the sleepers. In other words, until the seats or sleeper compartments are installed, a coach and a sleeper are the same "shell". The same could be done for the Surfliners.
*For single-level non-electrified routes, such as those connecting New York and Chicago, Talgos could be used. Talgo trainsets can't have cars cut in or out at will, but they CAN be expanded at the yard. The existing Talgo design used in the Northwest could be used for corridor and non-overnight trains without modification. Talgo makes sleeper cars for its trains, so future Talgo orders for long-distance could have these already-manufactured cars added.
Two, or better yet three trains a day on each line is a great idea. Infact the Empire Builder *is* two trains (no 7 and 27) but they run them at the same time behind the same engine.
A second train does NOT cost twice as much, because once you have hired a station crew to service one train, they can just as well service two or three.
Shorther trains would allow people who wanter to make shorter trips do so at the times they need to travel, and would allow a layover (say in Minniapolis or Chicago) for some shopping or railfaning: ))
It also means that if a connection is missed, the next one will be no more than eight hours away, instead of 24!
But, you would not be able to do this on existing freight lines. It might not look like it, but the freight lines out here are already bending over backwards to accommodate AMTK as it is. Remember all of BNSF is SINGLE TRACK!
AND they have to take some of it out of service for routine maintenance. For freight trains this is not an issue, they can bunch them up and run them all at night. Out here the might run four of five eastbounds, and then run four or five westbounds. Running an AMTK train agaianst the parade is not pretty.
No, REAL High Speed, passenger service needs its own ROWs. Build them on the existing interstates. Get Federal Funding to build it, and allow local operating authorities to run it. And forget a single seat ride across the country.
But these High speed trains would also carry head end traffic. Mail, packages, and such. At smaller stations a "subway platform" might do, but at most there will need to be parking, and probably baggage handling, so infrastructure besides track is also part of the equasion.
Elias
Good idea with the dedicated line alng the interstate..and none other than the beloved CTA provides two existing models. Access from waiting rooms above the ROW, perhaps s new convenience store to b a part time commission agent. Greyhound does it [read cheap like everything else they do] why couldn't [whatever future] rail system do it? Now you see what I mean about stops at Richardton, New Salem, Mandan etc.NoDak translation of my earlier names.]
"But, you would not be able to do this on existing freight lines. It might not look like it, but the freight lines out here are already bending over backwards to accommodate AMTK as it is. Remember all of BNSF is SINGLE TRACK! AND they have to take some of it out of service for routine maintenance. For freight trains this is not an issue, they can bunch them up and run them all at night. Out here the might run four of five eastbounds, and then run four or five westbounds. Running an AMTK train agaianst the parade is not pretty.
No, REAL High Speed, passenger service needs its own ROWs. Build them on the existing interstates. Get Federal Funding to build it, and allow local operating authorities to run it. And forget a single seat ride across the country."
I respectfully but strongly disagree.
One of the greatest COSTS of building a road is buying the land. Yes, the government can take land, but the law requires the payment of "just compensation" and in my experience that law is adhered to. Eminent domain merely means the owner can't say no, it almost NEVER results in a cheaper land price.
Conversely, one of the great advantages of rail improvements is that the railroads abandoned tracks on existing routes. Often, where there is one track now, there were two; or where there is two now, there were three. But the railroads have rarely sold off the "excess" right-of-way width, so often when you ride trains you can see next to you where the old second or third track used to be.
And that's not ignoring the NIMBY effect. While improving existing rail rights-of-way creates SOME negative reaction, the reaction inevitably mushrooms when you start talking about "taking" people's land. People wail before the cameras and microphones about how the evil government is displacing them from their life-long homes. Businessmen forced to move gripe that their business will never recover at a new location, when everyone was used to them at their old location. The level of resistance when you bring land acquisition into the mix is head and shoulders above the typical NIMBY reaction, and could easily be fatal to any new rail line. Remember that Robert Moses gained his bad reputation outside the rail community by being seen as a gobbler of neighborhoods, and ONE of the factors that eventually brought him down was a neighborhood that ***successfully*** resisted having its land "taken" for a new superhighway.
In short, if we're assuming a government willing to cough up the money to build brand new rail lines, that money would be much better spent restoring second and third tracks to existing routes.
1) As already mentioned, the high cost of land acquisition is avoided. Therefore, more lines can be improved for the SAME amount of money than spending on new lines from scratch. And the political resistance that typically follows the use of eminent domain is also avoided.
2) The freight railroads would also benefit from the additional tracks, but IMHO that's a good thing. Trucks put heavy stress on the highways -- a much greater share of road damage than is proportional to how much fuel tax they pay -- and many truckers are dangers to other drivers due to the incentives in how they're paid to "KEEP DRIVING!!!" at all costs. The rail "dog law" is enforced diligently, the trucking one is "honored more in the breach than the observance".
States like Virginia and Washington have made tax-financed improvements to freight lines (which also carry passenger trains)after discovering that it's actually cheaper for the state treasury than the road improvements that would move the same number of truck trailers. In Virginia, that has meant tens of millions spent on NS and CSX rails to move the same tonnage as hundreds of millions or billions spent on I-95 construction.
Illinois is RIGHT NOW second-tracking and adding longer and more frequent sidings to the UP route between Chicago, Springfield, and Saint Louis. Combined with a new signaling system and grade crossing improvements, which are also underway NOW, this will allow trains to travel up to 110mph. If the only option were building a whole brand-new passenger-only railway for the same route, the cost would be several TIMES that of the improvements underway, would be VERY controversial due to the need to "displace" landowners and residents from land acquisition, and in short it would be a "pie in the sky" plan for years in the future instead of a public works project under way TODAY.
My whole premise shor-circuited the aqusition of ROW.
It planned to use existing Interstate ROW already owned by the state, a trackway built on the median (probably elevated) would be less costly than builting the roadways that are already there, and as I said, the ROW aready exists.
Naturally a private enterprize could not do this, but a state or regional authority would have no trouble at all. Also City centers and population centers have migrated from the downtowns were the stations are to the malls and plazas around the interstates. So you would be right back in the middle of things.
Elias
"And please, I know a lot of you will scream NO in protest, but a smoking lounge is in order, behind the engine perhaps where nobody else has to go thru. It IS a relaxation to some and not an unreasonable acomodation to ask...or have smoker and nonsmoker cars like they used to."
Even though I'm a non-smoker, I agree 100% with this. A complete smoking ban on a 2 or 4 or 6 hour flight or corridor train trip is one thing, but a smoking ban on a 18 or 24 or 36 hour long-distance train trip is another thing entirely. Every train that travels over 12 hours and/or has sleepers should have a smoking area.
But you DO realize that Amtrak does this RIGHT NOW?!? Not every train has them, but there ARE Superliner coaches where the lower-level seating area has been specially ventilated and designated a smoking area. They are clearly marked inside and out as "Coach Smoker" cars. I don't know personally about the single-level long-distance trains in the East, since the only long-distance trains I've taken have been Superliner-equipped trains.
"Not every train has them, but there ARE Superliner coaches where the lower-level seating area has been specially ventilated and designated a smoking area."
That stuff DOESN'T WORK! It does get into the vents and air conditioning and does polute the whole car.
A separate car, possibly, but it would have to be front end or tail end so that others would not have to walk through it.
On trains like the builder they put sleepers (read first class... peons keep out) at *both* ends. (one end is train 27 sleepers, and the other end is train 7 sleepers). Another problem is that smoking cars draw scuzzy people into them, and concentrate them all in one place. Sure not all smokers are scuzzy people, but all scuzzy people, it would seem, are smokers. The smoking cars on the LIRR were so bad (thick with smoke), that the smokers wouldn't even go into them: There were always plendy of seats in there.
I'm sure Big Ed has a picture in his mind of sitting in a comfortable seat in a quiet car, contemplatively puffing on his pipe, but the truth of the matter is that AMTK smokers are nothing of the sort, the are noxious, obnoxious cattle cars, the likes of which it is better not to enter.
Elias
If Amtrak ever gets back to normal to the point where they have more than enough money, they should consider being High Speed Trains that can reach up 300 mph, it would give the Air Companys alot of competition. I know it will all cost money to build Catenary and upgrade the tracks, etc, but in the long run it would do good for the company.
The problem is that there aren't wide open, long stretches of straight track everywhere. That's Europe's advantage, and one of the reasons why it's more feasable for them then us.
I'd love to see a 300 mph TGV-type train TRY negotiating those mountain passes in the west. I suppose if some scientists decided to concentrate on railroading technology, we could probably overcome some hurdles, but airlines will always win at moving people faster for long distances.
The problem is that there aren't wide open, long stretches of straight track everywhere.
There are in the Midwest. With dedicated ROW's alongside existing railroads, high-speed trains could easily surpass 250 MPH on a Midwestern high-speed rail system centered on Chicago. It would take some effort and some cash, but it wouldn't be impossible.
-- David
Chicago, IL
220 mph is the upper limit to what HSR will do, at least for next few decades.
The engery requirements to push even a lightweight TGV through sea level air at 220mph are enourmous, and at the limits of what traction technology can do today. It's not an easily solveable issue.
The issue isn't maintenance, it's shear energy required to move a train at such high speeds. Even an aerodynamically 'clean' design is going to encounter heavy resistance at those speeds. It's why maglev is a dead end - even if it works, the shear energy required to move is enourmous.
The reason planes get away with it is they're up 30,000 feet, where the air isn't as thick.
And it still takes an effective 50,000 hp to maintain forward speed.
Use a transmission, like a car does.
The engery requirements to push even a lightweight TGV through sea level air at 220mph are enourmous, and at the limits of what traction technology can do today. It's not an easily solveable issue.
Three comments:
1) For whatever it's worth, most of the Midwest is about 600(+/-) feet above sea level.
2) French TGV trains have been tested up to 320 MPH. (Read about it here.) I also remember reading that a new TGV line now under construction will have sustained speeds of 250 MPH in revenue service. (Unfortunately, I'm unable to cite my source on that one.)
3) 220 MPH is still a hell of an improvement over 80 MPH or even 110 MPH.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The problem is that there aren't wide open, long stretches of straight track everywhere. That's Europe's advantage, and one of the reasons why it's more feasable for them then us.
Straight Track, Europe - you gotta be kidding! It isn't exactly very flat on the continent (except in Holland), there are those things called the Alps, the Pyrenees and the Massif Central. The way the French get away with it is by wide radius curves following valleys.
I'd love to see a 300 mph TGV-type train TRY negotiating those mountain passes in the west. I suppose if some scientists decided to concentrate on railroading technology, we could probably overcome some hurdles, but airlines will always win at moving people faster for long distances.
The only way to get a 300mph train to traverse the Rockies would be a BIG tunnel.
The only way to get a 300mph train to traverse the Rockies would be a BIG tunnel
Actually, UP is the big winner here. Credited with the most boring scenery over the Rockies, in fact the Overland Route can be rebuilt into a high speed corridor. I am not sure about 300mph+, but it certainly wouldn't be far away from about 150mph, given some money.
Also, the Sunset Route is relatively mundane and boring. The problem with the Overland and the Sunset Route is that neither are exactly the most direct route between Chicago and any large city on the West Coast!
AEM7
Maybe if (That's a Big If) Amtrak get back, they can upgrade the Acela Express to reach up to 200-250 mph, I highly Doubt it though.
Anything is possible, but first let Amtrak get itself off the "rapidly going under" list, get some funding, and get itself back on it's feet. Then we can plan faster services.
I agree A Line C/R.
Actually we *do* have the necessary ROWs that are perfectly suited to high speed rail travel. But you *do* have to think outside the box. I started a thread on this subject with my Fantasy Proposal Life After Amtrak which uses Interstate Highways as the ROW, and seceral large cities as Refional Hubs. The web of lines eminating from these hubs would be about 300 miles long (2 hour ride at 150 mph).
No top of this is a network of Regional Trunk Lines connecting hubs and other large cities on routes of about 500 miles in length.
And covering them all is a network of National Trunk Lines runing distances of 800 to 1000 miles.
Amtrak might or might not have a part, especially in the Regional and National Trunk Lines... But the Regional Hub lines are clearly seen as being operated by whatever contractors the state and or regional operating authorities might come up with. Apparently Herzog has a foot in this sort of door already in several markets.
I think that Federal Funding should be made available to develop these regional operating authorities, and to encourage the creation of these authorities, but it would clearly be the various operating authorities who would subsidize the operation of the lines.
Elias
It would be good if Amtrak would install Power Lines all the way to South Carolina, the Acela at 150 mph would make it there in about 5-6 hours from NYC, your average train takes 15 hours, SC is about 763 miles from NYC.
And If Amtrak were to purchase High Speed Trains that make it up 300 mph, these trains would make it to SC in about 3 - 3 1/2 hours from NYC.
But it would be better to build new lines, as I have suggested, along Interstate Highways. You avoid the interface with freight, and the 1800s technology and routings of existing rail.
While the Highest speed trains would do well between NYP and CHI, perhaps even on the BOS-NYP-WAS routing, they really are not necessary on secondary routings. 150 mph is fast enough on feeder hubs, and I think (see, I have been doing too much tinking too) that it would be more effective to spread a wider web than it shoot a line directly to one city.
Did you ever hear the story abut the old bull and the young bull? Well, I say "Let's WALK" down the hill and serve them all!
Elias
I agree, they should build new lines to avoid Freight Operation and other interuptions that might disrupt High Speed Travel.
You avoid the interface with freight, and the 1800s technology and routings of existing rail.
What you say is perhaps true of the L&N, and a few of the lesser progressive railroads. ATSF, Conrail, amongst others, have mainline alignments that were continually upgraded, and even UP built a low-grade cut off up Sherman Hill in the 1980s (?). These are the state-of-art RoW's. They may not be immediately suitable for high speed rail, but the only real issues lies with signalling (i.e. cab signalling) and not infrastructure geometry. Try walking along a Conrail mainline someday, you will appreciate how sweeping the curves are in comparison to say the L&N or some of the old B&O secondaries. Even the B&O mainline through the Allegenhies, one of the crappiest mainlines out east, has seen many improvement schemes which you can see for yourself in the form of abandoned RoW's and tunnel cut-offs constructed in the 1920s-30s.
If FRA would relax their ruling that open grade crossings are not permitted for 90mph+ operation, there are many sections of the Conrail main that I know will be suitable for operation around ~125mph TODAY. The superelevation is an issue, but adjusting superelevation is a matter of a few hundred thousands of dollar per mile compared to your tens-of-million dollar per mile proposition of building new RoW's.
Take a walk along some mainline RoW's. Don't forget your high-visibility vest and hard hat.
But it would be better to build new lines, as I have suggested, along Interstate Highways.
The geometry is entirely wrong in places, but I agree this is a good idea. You can do this in the rural Midwest, but you can't do it through the mountains. However, the rail alignment in the rural Midwest are already good for 110mph/125mph operations, and can easily be good enough for 150mph with minor realignments.
AEM7
You're forgetting the fact that most of the railbed south of DC is from hunger. They would have to upgrade this too.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah I said that before, they would have to build Catenary and upgrade the Rails.
You're forgetting the fact that most of the railbed south of DC is from hunger. They would have to upgrade this too.
Peace,
ANDEE
Very competative with airlines. Could be the next NEC. I once remmeber seeing ads for Amtrak, to take Amtrak instead of I-95 to get to Florida. Imagine that, Amtrak having enough money for ADS!
The interstates are so curvy that 60 mph would be pushing it. The only interstate that I can imagine being turned into a ROW would be the Pennsylvania Turnpike or the Autobahn due to their being absolutly straight. The reason why instersyes aren't straight is so drivers don't fall asleep or have drag races.
The interstates are so curvy that 60 mph would be pushing it. The only interstate that I can imagine being turned into a ROW would be the Pennsylvania Turnpike or the Autobahn due to their being absolutly straight. The reason why instersyes aren't straight is so drivers don't fall asleep or have drag races.
The PA Turnpike is absolutely straight? That's a new one for me, especially considering I drove the full length of it just over a week ago. Even if curves weren't an issue, there's no median whatsoever on the Turnpike, so any railroad would have to be built alongside the Turnpike. This would become a nightmare when dealing with interchanges, tunnels, and the many narrow cuts through the mountains. There's probably far better options for getting a high-speed line across the mountains than the Turnpike.
In reality, most interstates in the rural Midwest and South are extremely straight and have wide medians, making them much better candidates for high-speed rail ROW's. Of course, most mailine railroads in these areas are also very straight, so there's another (probably more likely) option for a high-speed rail.
-- David
Chicago, IL
One highway, I-95 north of New York is curvy, a train would need a helovalot of tilt tech to do those curves.
What does that have to do with anything? Go back and read my posting again. I-95 north of New York is not in the rural Midwest or South.
There's already a little thing called the Northeast Corridor that serves that area. Why would we need another parallel ROW serving the same cities?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Interstate Highways have much gentler curves that most RR ROWs. The *can* sustain speeds of 100mph+ because I have done that. They could easily handle more, and a train is much more stable than a speeding car.
Elias
I don't think the role of high-speed trains should be to compete with airlines in long-distance travel. I think air should be used for coast-to-coast trips for example, and high-speed rail for trips like DC-Boston, Chicago to Minneapolis, or Los Angeles to San Francisco, for example. In my perfect dream world, there would be high-speed rail stations at all the airports so the trains could fill the niche now filled by commuter airlines, integrating rail and air for maximum flexibility and convenience.
Mark
I think the High Speed Trains should go Long Distance, It would certainly attract Air Travelers, I know tons of money is involed but It will be good in the long run.
"I think the High Speed Trains should go Long Distance, It would certainly attract Air Travelers,"
I think you should do more thinnking.
This country is far too big for even High Speed Rail to do the whole job. Lets admit that there is a place for air travel, and try to integrate rail into that plan. If I were to fly from here to my parents house in Pennsylvania, I would have to drive 80 miles to the Bismarck Airport, fly to Minneapolis, fly to Detroit, and fly to Allentown PA. From there my parents would have to meet me at the airport fo yet another 50 mile drive.
If I take the train (in September, that's my plan) I would have to drive 300 miles to Minot, take the Empire Builder to Chicago, and the Lake Shore Limited to NYP. Once at NYP, I would have to take the MARTZ BUS from the Pork Authority to East Stroudsburg.
My Point is, that transfers is part and parcel of taking a trip. Clearly HSR could feed people into regional hubs where they could transfer to a regional train or to an airline. That service reach out like a spiter to cover greater and greater areas, and at the same time reduce auto and jet emmissions (and consumption of fuel... remember cars and planes need liquid petroleum products (NORTH SLOPE et al.) where as HSR can get electricty from anywhere (water, wind, nuclear... as well as coal, oil and gas. And this is an issue that needs to be addressed by us as a nation, rather than as selfish individuals.
Elias
Well I'm into High Speed Trains, so you can't blame me for trying to get these Speedy Trains into Long Distance, LOL.
"so you can't blame me for trying to get these Speedy Trains into Long Distance"
So, now you want to build one to London?
Remember, there is a place for an airplane, and that our competition is and always has been the car.
Elias
High speed trains aren't bad.
Let us look at an anology: A constant topic here is people insisting on taking express trains when a local will get them there just as fast or faster than the express on Queens Boulevard.
Imagine that the airplane is an E train.
Imagine that the high speed train is a V train.
To go from Lexington Avenue to Steinway Street is like going from DC to Philly. There are hardly any planes and to take one is a waste of time. On Queens Boulevard, you always take the V to make that trip.
To go from Lexington Avenue to Roosevelt Avenue is like going from DC to New York. You can take either the E or the V. If you fly to New York (or take the E train), you might make it faster than if you take the train (or the V). But, since that only happens so many times, you are better off on the train (V) if that is easier or arrives at Lexington Avenue first.
To go from Lexington Avenue to Continental Avenue is like going from DC to LA. You fly or take the E.
To go from Lexington Avenue to Parsons/Archer is like going from DC to London. You fly or take the E.
Understand? Just like the E vs. V on Queens Boulevard, trains versus planes works the same way.
Correct... Air has never been the direct competition to rail that people claim that it is... It is the CAR that is still the trains most ardent competitor.
I frequently travel around the state (North Dakota.... (HEY don't make fun of us 'cause we only *have* eight cities in the state!)...
and I will grant you that the population base is not here for the kind of hub system for which I speak... but I assure you that I surely WOULD use such a system in preference to driving (And I can cruise LEGALLY at 75 mph without any congested traffic!) if it were available. Driving Great Distances is not all that great of a thing, it can be boring and hard on the butt and bladder.
Given this... In markets that can support service, even on 90 minute headways, I think that fast trains will wind people over from their cars.
Elias
Who says that a train MUST go 300 mph over the Rockies? The speed limit would obviously lower there. BART trains are capable of 80 mph, but that doesn't mean it goes 80 mph everywhere.
Besides, there are corridors in more urgent need of high speed rail than the corridor between Denver and Salt Lake City. There are plenty of corridors in this country that could use high speed rail and have no mountains to contend with whatsoever. Why should they be denied just because the Rockies are hard to cross?
If a transcontinental high speed line is needed, then route it through New Mexico and Arizona where the terrain is relatively less rugged. That would be the natural route for a Los Angeles-bound train anyway. San Francisco would be out of luck, but its better than nothing.
Mark
nobody is planning to run high speed rail at faster than 220mph.
The TGV is illegal to run in the US.
It is impossible to make a Tier II compliant high speed train
The Acela has stability problems, even at it's low speed, due to it's obnoxious weight.
You won't see high speed rail in the US until the FRA pulls it's head out of it's ass and reforms their obnoxious regulations.
It's as simple as that.
You won't see high speed rail in the US until the FRA pulls it's head out of it's ass and reforms their obnoxious regulations.
Why is it that no-one EVER has a good word to say for the FRA? Are they really an useless backward body who have outlived their usefulness?
Actually James, many people here have no clue. The FRA is a very important standards organization. People don't like them because they have a mandate that they are solely responsible for safety and not cost-effectiveness, so performance is degraded as a result. I wish there was something like the FRA in Britain. I have said this enough times; standards are there to be followed. I suppose you could liken FRA to Rail Safety Ltd in Britain. RSL is modelled after the FRA. FRA is the reason we don't have Hatfields and Ladbroke Groves here.
AEM7
Bullshit. The FRA's regulations are long since obsolete. They're not a block to 'cheap' passenger rail, they're a block to passenger rail, period. There's a near 100%, and growing, premium paid for rail equipment in the US, because it needs to be specially designed to meet a regulation attitude that's stuck in the 1920's.
European practice is crash avoidance, followed by crash energy management. Even studies funded by the US DOT have concluded that crash energy management being applied to US trains would result in fewer deaths than current regulations would in identical tests.
US passenger train crash philosphy is soley on passive safety, and the only one in the world that does not recorgnize the safety benefits of keeping a derailed trainset in line and upright. There is no real standards for crash avoidance via redundant signalling, nor are there any rational standards for braking (France, interestingly, has much more severe braking requirements than the rest of Europe). Standards for grab bars and such aren't based on real life situations, rather they're based on arbitrary strength standards that are based on decades old calculations.
The european UIC regulations have proven themselvs to be as safe as US passenger trains in terms of fatalities per passenger mile, and at significantly less cost than the US's regulations.
It's interesting to note - Japanese safety regulations are rather simple - there will be no accidents. AFAIK, there aren't (m)any, either.
FRA's response to a wreck caused by signal misinterpretation--build more crash resistant cars starting five years later. Cab signals what are they? (details see previous posts on the CSX/MARC 1996 wreck in Silver Spring MD)
As with 'standards organizations' in other fields (don't get me started on the other NEC and our buddies at unconcerned laboratories) the 'cheapskates' often have too much influence (aluminum building wire anybody?) but all that said the staandards/codes/component certification are necessary. We just need to keep pushing for better codes/ stricter enforcement. For instance CAB SIGNALS on all routes with more than two passenger trains per day.
For once, I completely agree with you. Aside from politics and funding, I think the FRA is the biggest stumbling block to viable passenger rail in the US.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"You won't see high speed rail in the US until the FRA pulls it's head out of it's ass and reforms their obnoxious regulations."
OR you by-pass all of that CRAP by building something new... something outside of FRA regulation. Call it an Interstate Highspeed Elevated Line. If it doesn't connect to existing railroads, if it doesn't have grade crossings, you could call it a VFS (very fast subway) or a WAOLISR (wingless aircraft on a long interstate runway).
There is no way that regulators can regulate what hasn't been invented yet, so screw them!
Elias
High Speed Subways would be great for the express lines that bypass 5 - 6 stops, even though I know it's impossible for NYCT.
No it is not. A line is a example where it would work.
Yes the A Line is great for High Speed Subway, I wonder what the High Speed Subway would be like, hmmm........
Good places would be Central Park West IND, the Lex between 125 and 86, and the 2nd Av subway when finally complete (it was intended for 70 mph operation).
Other places where higher speeds could be achieved include the express run of the Broad Street line in Philly, and BART'S (Northern Calif) cross-bay tubes.
A Great Place would be on the IND A-Line, between 59st. & 125 st., between Broad Channel & Aqueduct Racetrack, between High St. & Broadway Nassau, BMT W-Line, between Pacific & 36 St.
True. You'd have to isolate the Broad Channel aqueduct tracks better from the waves, though.
On the other hand, Queens Blvd snakes around a little too much, and though the dedicated express track under Northern Blvd. gives a good fast ride, the introduction of 63rd St service means westbound trains are slowing down sooner to negotiate the junction, while eastbound trains take longer to speed up.
I believe this is the route California is looking to take - a system specifically not connected to the rest of thew country, specifically to avoid FRA tier II. interestingly, the current system also has a 200mph design speed, though service speeds would likely be 186mph, like the rest of the world. I.e., it's the real deal, not the slower than conventional trains that Acela's "High speed" is.
BTW, it's not just rail advocates that think a new high speed alignment between NY and Boston should be built. The airline industry went on record years ago advocating it. Short haul trips for them are pretty much money loser - a plane only makes money when it's flying, and 100% loaded with passengers. On the ground, it's a loser, and short trips mean a large amount of 'on the ground' time.
IMHO, if legally allowed to, Airlines could very well be a possible private operator of regional trains in the US. With modern DMU equipment, a feeder service to an airport could be implemented cheaply.
Airlines whished everyone flew from NY to LA. They'd be making more money if they did. It's the short hops that kill them - less equipment life, less time in the air, higher costs.
>>>BTW, it's not just rail advocates that think a new high speed alignment between NY and Boston should be built. The airline industry went on record years ago advocating it. Short haul trips for them are pretty much money loser - a plane only makes money when it's flying, and 100% loaded with passengers. On the ground, it's a loser, and short trips mean a large amount of 'on the ground' time.
Delta doesn't seem to think so. Look how they keep on advertising about how much "planes are faster than trains." It's even on their website. Even Metro-North New Haven line stations have those obnoxious ads. Delta's Air Shuttle page boasts about how frequent they run planes from Boston to NY and NY to DC.
Sure, but the industry line has been, or at least was been, that a new alignment was a needed improvement.
What a company thinks and advertisers do are sometimes different things. There's plenty of exampleware to go around. In any case, why is everyone annoyed at Delta advertising? Last I checked, one of the basic ideas behind this country was build a moustrap and convince everyone it's better.
Apple has 5% of the computer industry. BMW has about the same in the auto industry. Should they also stop advertising, too?
I'm pleased to hear of Delta's ad campaign. It's the surest sign that Acela is drawing riders!
Mark
delta is looking at the future. They can't take the risk of acela ACTUALLY drawing passengers.
And why are your tax dollars going support unprofitable air routes?
Who says it has to FRA complient rail? The FRA only has say in lines they were given control in. Remeber\ who said that LIRR can't be a subway.
This wasn't mention on the Q Service Advisories from the TA Website
Apparently all Manhattan bound Q was running on the N R via tunnel between Dekalb and Canal Street since 12AM Saturday. Today at the Canal Street Q platform, a TA worker told everyone (mostly chinese people) whose been standing on the Lower Canal Street platform long enough that was no service and all uptown Q stops at N R platform then runs normal from prince street. No one was aware of this diversion! Of course, because they didn't bother to read it when it posted everywhere in the station.
I'm apologized for post this message so late.
There's never any mention of diversions like this on the TA web site, except incidentally. The posted diversions generally only indicate when a train will not be serving every stop it usually serves, not if it will be serving every stop plus a few more. I disagree with that approach for a few reasons (both so those who prefer the express run can considered other approaches or simply allocate a few extra minutes and so those who prefer the local run don't go out of their way, walking further than necessary or making extra transfers, when they could have just taken the "express" for a change) but that's what's been decided.
I have to agree, they put an R I had to catch in front of my Q. For some reason we never did catch up to it so I was late getting to Queens Plaza on Saturday.
If I had known the Q's were going in the tunnel, I would have caught the Q before the one I did to insure I made the R and was on time.
Okay, current events time.
Currently, North America is still hesitant to ratify the Kyoto Accord of 1995...while most countries in Europe has done it, along with Japan.
Now, think: If Clinton did have the guts (and if he could) to ram Kyoto through Congress and Chretien had the nerve to shove it through both houses of Parliament, how would planning for any (or all) rail transport systems look today? Any suggestions, all?
Personally, if Kyoto was rammed through, I would say that some major transit projects all over North America would be moved onto the frontburner, or would actually finally get some steamshovels into the ground.
Anyone want to weigh in with their opinion?
Better transit would definitely be essential to meeting the terms of the Kyoto protocol. Better transit = less car trips = less greenhouse gases.
Mark
[...]while most countries in Europe has done it, along with Japan.
and intend to cheat or ignore it.
Kyoto is political and like all things political, those who don't want to be bound by it will find ways around it.
We could look at a more likely, if not immediate, possibility. A sudden shock ten, twenty or even thirty years hence (war is a good possibility) removes a significant portion of the world's oil supply. Oil is now a strategic commodity that must be rationed for the indefinite future. The crisis is here--how ill it be dealt with?
I sat in on a presentation by a nationally recognized physicist and the good news is that Fusion power will be commercially operational by 2050 given just the current rate of progress. Fusion will be all that and a bag of chips with near unlimited fuel and no toxic radiation. Fusion would progress a lot quicker if our government provised more than our current level of support (which is ZERO), but the Canadians, Europeans and Japanese will have an energy producing experimental reactor ready by 2010 with a prototype commercial reactor by 2030 and full blown commericial reactors by 2050. All we have to do is not totally zap the planet's ecosystem by then and we're all set.
I'm not much into fusion. I like Miles Davis's earlier music better.
But seriously, I'm not surprised the current administration isn't much interested in fusion, being run by oil interests.
Any word on the latest supposed fusion breakthrough? The authors claimed they could carry out fusion by only heating tiny microdomains in a lower-temperature gas to the appropriate temperature, thus eliminating the need for out-of-this-world containment technologies. I don't know how well their claims have stood up to peer review, though.
Mark
The most recent European reactor was able to break even in terms of energy use. The next resctor will create a surplus. After that a commercial prototype will actually harness the energy. The magnetic containment is not "out of this world" and is currently up and running as we speak. A fusion reactor is not a contunious machine, but works on short pluses of activity. The fusable gas is injected into the reactor, which is inside the equivalent of a giant transformer core. This core generates an intense EM field that heats up the gas to like 10 million degrees in a doughnut shaped ring where it begins to fuse releasing energetic neutrons. W/in a few seconds this doughnut will expand and the fusion materials will begin to get impure and the reaction will stop. The power is turned off and everything cools down very quickly. You can actually have cameras inside the reactor taking images of the isolated ring of 10 million degree plasma. The photos are really neat. The thing about it is that not much fusionable material is introduced at any one time (the reactor is a vacuum chamber except for the fisionable gas) so even at 10 million degrees there is not enough stuff to really cause any catestrophic harm.
doughnut shaped ring
It's called a Tokamak reactor. The great thing about fusion that wasn't already mentioned is that if there is a mechainical breakdown, the reaction stops immediately. Unlike fission, where a meltdown could occur.
When the US embargoed fuel deliveries to the Imperial Republic of Japon in the late thirties, the 'little yellow Asian people' expanded the Eastern Asian Coprosperity Sphere to include the Dutch East Indies oil fields. Japan, an Asian nation lacking major natural sources of fuel, designed the Tokamak to run off of plutonium pellets...fuel obtained by a lightly armed commercial freighter nearly fifty years after signing the documents of surrender. There was a great secret about all of this for so very long...the fuel is 'surplus' weapons grade plutonium. For a nation to have banned our nuclear powered aircraft carriers there is something to be said about an 'innocent nation' collecting materiel to assemble more than 100 atomic weapons. Riceballs. CI Peter
I remember reading in 1955 that electricity generation by fission would be so cheap that homes would have their electric meters removed and people would just pay a fee for connection to the system.
I remember reading around 1955 that fusion would be THE way of generating electricity in 2000. I don't expect to be here in 2050, but I'm skeptical about a commercial fusion prototype by 2030.
As I said in the other pst, the European team has broken even in terms of energy and the new JET reactor that is going to be completed by 2010-2012 will create more energy than what is pumped into it. This is a big thing in the rest of the world, but because it is not a part of our energy policy we never hear about it over here. The costs will probably run the same as a nuclear facility with some higher initial costs vs lower fuel and waste costs. I got all this information right from an actual research physicist who had come back from a tour of the European facility, not some scientific futureist.
Breaking even is great news. Of course, we broke even with fusion in the early 50's, just that pesky control issue got into the mix :)
When we start seeing more come out than goes in, we'll have truely reached the age of unlimited power. And I suspect, if electric costs drop, we'll finally see the age of electrification in the US :)
Until then - I'd still like to see fission plants built. Today's nukes are a lot better in every way, and waiting to be ordered. It's only time before a company breaks the moratorium and orders one.
Given the high fusion capital costs and maintainence costs that are probably equal to a conventional plant (the neutrons still heat water that makes steam that spins turbines) I doubt that the price will drop that much. Furthermore, for these fusion plants to be viable the reactors litterally have to be giant so don't look for a back yard version.
You won't see a new nuke plant until we can deal with all the flap re: where to store the waste.
It is...
But still, it'd be a very good source of electricity...It's kinda like the stuff you see in the SimCity computer games. Which makes me wonder, could microwave power (satellite collects solar energy, and then it's beamed down to earth) be possible in some way?
And what of wind? I know in Calgary that there is a program called "Ride the Wind", where the AC power for the LRT here is from windmills out in the Rockies. Does anyone else know anything else about this?
How can transit itself? Without oil, how will transit systems (including the NYC subway) find power to power their trains, LRVs and trams? Another question to think about there.
-J!
Nationally recognized physicist or no, that is a little too pat an answer.
In my lifetime, I've seen solar, wind, synfuels, fission and just about everything else but the magic pill in the water-filled gas tank hailed as the safe, certain, unlimited fuel of the future.
Show me a working realistic prototype that addresses all issues and maybe we can have a better grasp of whether this is the wave of the future or not. A big difference between 1902 and 2002 is that in 2002 the snake oil salesmen set up their tents in front of gummint grant offices instead of county fairs.
After the cold fusion debaccle everyone sort of tunned fusion power out. The truth is that steady progress is being made and it is all a question of funding. The JET reactor currently being built in Europe has a pricetag of like 10 Billion. If oil man Bush didn't have all his chips in fossil fuels we might see it a lot sooner. Do some online searches and I think you'll be plesantly surprised w/ what is going on.
If fusion were all that great the private funding would be rolling in like crazy to get a share of such a gold mine.
Either that or the oil companies would be trying to buy it out so they could shut it down.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Just like rail travel the capital costs are far to high compared to the existing technologies available. The benefits are far in the long run and discounting 100 billion dollars for 50 years dosen't make for a good investment.
(We could look at a more likely, if not immediate, possibility. A sudden shock ten, twenty or even thirty years hence (war is a
good possibility) removes a significant portion of the world's oil supply. Oil is now a strategic commodity that must be rationed
for the indefinite future. The crisis is here--how ill it be dealt with?)
I've been thinking about this too, Paul. The pat answer is that oil producing countries have a great incentive to sell us oil for THEIR economy. But after staggering out of Lower Manhattan on Sept. 11th, the possibility of an "economic suicide bomb" if certain people gained control of certain countries is all to real.
With people spread out beyond transit, and all those oil sucking McMansions with all that empty, heat sucking space, it would take us decades to restructure to adjust to higher oil prices. Forget transit -- it won't get you from a Nerdistan to an Edge City affordably. The only option is car-pooling on a massive scale. And we'd better have the institutional arragements in place whan it is needed.
Ah, Larry, but you may be wrong there.
Sure rail transit may need electricity to run...but what of hydroelectric power or some other source? I believe all of New York City is already being powered by power from Northern Quebec, where they generate the power from H2O. If that isn't better than oil, then I don't know what is.
That could already be a credit to both Canada and the US under Kyoto....I THINK. Besides, if Calgary's LRT can be run under wind power from the Rockies, then I think we can all bet the farm that Quebec hydroelectricity can run the New York subway, and much more.
Carpooling? Now wouldn't that still be using oil??
-J!
Hydropower has environmental problems galore. It ruins habitats, there are methane emissions from vegetation decomposing underwater, people are displaced and there are only so many places you can build a hydropower dam. Nuclear is a better bet.
With people spread out beyond transit, and all those oil sucking McMansions with all that empty, heat sucking space, it would take us decades to restructure to adjust to higher oil prices.
Hey, this is America ... people claim a God-given right to have ten-room houses for their four-member families and to drive 75K miles per year!
I believe that the Kyoto Treaty was submitted to the Senate, where it was defeated 97 to 0. It has no chance of passing now either, so forget about it. The treaty would penalize the U.S. and give India and China free reign to pollute.
"would actually finally get some steamshovels into the ground.
Anyone want to weigh in with their opinion? "
Yes, i think that it would help transit.
But Steamshovels.... I don't think so, not on a Kyoto Project!
Elias
>>> North America is still hesitant to ratify the Kyoto Accord of 1995 <<<
"North America" is a bit of an overstatement. It is the United States that is against the accord on the basis that it is better to have the world become uninhabitable in general than do anything which would possibly reduce the standard of living in the world's largest polluter of the planet.
I have seen no independent objections to the treaty by Mexico, and Canada was originally for the accord but is now divided, with the main opposition argument being that it won't work without the U.S. cooperation, so why endure the discomforts it would require.
Tom
I haven't read every post on the Amtrak shut down so this might have already come up.
I just called Amtrak and spoke to "Julie" the computerized reservation agent. She gave me info for a train from Washington to New York on July 1, the date after Gunn has threathened to pull the trigger and shut down Amtrak. There wasn't any message that said the trains might shut down.
MARC, the comuter railroad, hasn't put up any notices of train cancellation on the Penn Line.
So what's going on? Is this shutdown threat real or is everybody waiting for Gunn to pull the trigger and then react?
Michael
Washington, DC
The chances are, Julie doesn't know.
The Boston Metro just reported that MBTA hadn't had any information about the shutdown. Of course, that is because MBTA doesn't really have to do anything yet; the shutdown might not happen. Amtrak mgmt's official position is that "we will carry on operating". The reason for this is so that when the shutdown occurs, (a) it will maximize disruption, and (b) it will be fairly clear that Amtrak intended to keep operating, but the blame will be pinned on Congress for not making funds available, resulting in the disruption. Look at their website.
It's like a strike, except this time the management is in it too. It has illustrated to the public and the worker alike that Amtrak management doesn't *really* have to keep the company going, and it will illustrate that Amtrak must be funded. Minota the Transportation Secretary has not relented from his official position of "we want Amtrak to change its money losing ways", but I don't believe he has enough political clout even to decrease the funding that Amtrak has asked for. After all, this is an all-or-nothing bargain, and if he was determined to break up Amtrak it will take him several more months before he would have a plan.
I think Gunn is doing pretty good.
I'm just concerned that if the shutdown should occur, the government might becoming convinced that the break-up of power is necessary, and that may not be a good thing. After all, a national entity for passenger rail is important.
AEM7
What subway car do you think has the best railfan seat? Let's have two categories, best railfan seat in the New York subway, and the best railfan seat outside New York. I haven't ever been in the railfan seats of any NYC cars, so I can only offer my votes in the second category. They are:
PATCO high-speed line cars in Philly/South Jersey, because the operator seat is open, giving the railfan seat a view from the entire front window, not just half of it.
and
Toronto's T1 cars...the railfan seat faces backwards, which I hated at first, but then I realized that if I turned around my face was right in the window for a great view of things.
Mark
SEPTA M4s too.
SEPTA Broad Street Subway. Clear view of the speedommate too.
SEPTA M4s too.
SEPTA Broad Street Subway. Clear view of the speedometer too.
None of the NYC subway equipment has railfan seats just railfan windows.
The PATH cars on the other hand, they have a window you can look out of next to the railfan window. Unfortunately the seat is a lateral (facing inward) type so you have to have your head turned to the left to see out.
Plus there's no place to put your arm, very uncomfortable. At least on the PA1-3 there's extra space so if you have a bag you can put it there and lean on that.
View from PATCO railfan seat.
View from PATCO third seat.
View from SEPTA MFSE M4
View from Market Street El leaving 46th Street eastbound.
Fuji Heavy Industries flatbed garbage cars cuz the wind is always in your face (and the smell is behind you.) CI Peter
All of the CTA 'L' cars, prior to the 3200 series had great railfan seats, until they messed them up by putting in those full-width cabs.
-- Ed Sachs
Transverse cabs, unfortunately, are the wave of the future :-( , so everyone who loves railfan friendly cars (myself included), especially here in the NYC Transit system....enjoy them while they last because they are a rapidly dying breed :-(
No they aren't. Camera based OPTO is the wave of the future. Look at the brand new SEPTA M-4 cars. They have both a railfan door and seat w/ a half width cab. The T/O never has to leave his seat to close/open the doors for either right or left platforms. Perfect camera angles are piped w/ wireless communications into a monitor in the cab.
Mike, the problem is that "the wave of the future" hits NYCTA about 5 years later. Transverse cabs will be the norm for a long time.
The MTA is spending so much on CTBC for the new R143 equipped L, they could have spent like 100k more and provided for CAOPTO. The L would have been a perfect line for a CAOPTO test project just like its a CBTC test project.
What's CAOPTO?
- Lyle Goldman
The following cars had/have the best railfan seats (as far as MTA is concerned)...
R-10, R-16, R-44, R-46, R-68 and R-68A.
Why, you ask?
You could sit facing the front or rear or the car, so you can see everything going by comfortably.
On all other cars you have to sit sideways (uncomfortable during non-rush hours and very rude to your fellow passengers during rush hours) or stand to see anything outside the car.
I must add that after I was 15 years old, the front "railfan window" lost its interest for me....you can't really see anything, all you can do is pretend to be a TO.
100% agreement. I like the r-68s railfan seat also.
Peace,
ANDEE
Can't really see anything? What are you nuts? All you can see out the side of a subway car is....BLACK. Oh, maybe some DARKNESS. You can't even see the signals.
Can't really see anything? What are you nuts? All you can see out the side of a subway car is....BLACK. Oh, maybe some DARKNESS. You can't even see the signals.
Exactly! I had a great time last Friday riding that rubbishy Midland Metro LRV from West Bromwich Central to Birmingham Snow Hill - of course kneeling up on those rearward facing seats they stupidly put in front of the railfan window!
""I must add that after I was 15 years old, the front "railfan window" lost its interest for me....you can't really see anything, all
you can do is pretend to be a TO.""
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTT????
I must add that after I was 15 years old, the front "railfan window" lost its interest for me
Well, it never lost its interest for me, not at 15, or 25, or 35, ...
-- Ed Sachs
39 and holding (for quite a while now)
I don't think railfans would be sitting.
Good point. Believe it or not, Denver's LRVs have a vertical handrail to the left of each cab door to hold onto while looking through cab door window. Siemens thinks of everything.:-)
---
Toronto's T1 cars...the railfan seat faces backwards, which I hated at first, but then I realized that if I turned around my face was right in the window for a great view of things.
---
This isn't unique to the T1s. All of the TTC subway cars (except for Scarborough RT cars) have been designed this way since the 1950s. It is a very nice feature to have, though...
-Robert King
As of today, how many R-142 are running on the #5 line?
about 5 to 8 trainsets.
AMTRAK
6456-60 and 6486-90 were on the road testing for the 5, moments ago.
-Stef
really
Storage cars reassembled for use. Stuffs got more loose hardware than fillings in my teeth! CI Peter
135 of 390 cars are now R142s. CI Peter
I was heading downtown on a R-62 #4 from 59 street to Bowling Green at about 845 this morning. I counted 4 R-142 #5's heading uptown during my trip. So i assume there has to be a few more than that because that is a pretty short trip in comparison to the whole route.
The #5 line fleet of 390 cars now has 135 R142s in regular service with many more to come and the next SMS inspection is scheduled for two weeks from now. CI Peter
Tommorrow first interval of R143's after 5:30pm from 8th Ave and 14th on the LL. Meet end of Brooklyn bound platform.
Or meet Mr. T at 4pm at Flushing for the first set of Redbirds after that time.
I might be off line tommorrow so send your questions to Mr. T.
Thanks
Meet end of Brooklyn bound platform.
Front or rear?
I believe the idea is to meet at the lead car eastbound (i.e., first car of Brooklyn-bound train).
I'm assuming head end (front car) of course. If I go I'll meet with you guys there, I definately won't go riding on anymore Redbirds than I have to (sorry Mr.T) because those things are ovens in this weather.
Only the ones on the 7.
John, Just like the Qs, Lo-V, Hi-V, R-1/9, etc. when they are gone they are gone ... THEN you'll be saying gee I wish I had been there, done that. For me, I can always take a shower when I get home after greating some more memories.
Mr rt__:^)
Well it aint too hot today, so maybe I'll ride with you from Flushing anyway!
Actually, the Field trip's title should be "Redbirds to the R-143's" as corrected...
Actually, the Field trip's title should be "Redbirds to the R-143's" as corrected...
Depends on where you start. The trip was announced as starting at 14/8 to ride a 143 and subsequently ride a redbird. Mr. t then announced a pre-trip redbird run from Main Street to 14/8, so your title is correct for those who can make it.
But, how would you catch Redbirds by riding the Canarsie Line? Especially if we are riding it all the way to Rockaway Parkway??? It doesn't connect directly with any route that has Redbirds unless you only ride a couple of stops to Union Square...
Beats me; I didn't organize the trip.
I think the idea for the trip stemed from the fact there are two R26 cars (7770 and 7771) at Canarsie. So they were going to ride the R143s to take a look at the Redbirds at Canarsie.
Maybe they can call it Redbirds to the R143s and back to the Redbirds.
I see we have someone in the audience with a good memory !
Lou idea was/is to take the R-143s to the school cars. I added the Flushing line:
- 1st because I'm coming that way anyway
- 2nd any excuse to ride the Red Birds before they are gone is a good one to me.
Mr rt__:^)
PICKY...PICKY...PICKY. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Well somebody's got to get things right around here...;-D
I might be there, at 14th and 8th, I'm not sure. Depends on just how hot it gets tomorrow.
The R-143s are air-conditioned you know ?
At least more often then LI Bus coaches.
LOL!!!
Actually I've been lucky, as most of the LI Buses I have been on this week have been OK.
it Wuz gUd! But seriously, it was a nice little trip. I enjoyed it, especially since it was my very first ride on the R-143's. Thanks for putting this together. Anyhow, I am a little disappointed because for a few minutes it seemed I would be able to experience my first in-tunnel train evacuation. This due to an appearent fire in the parallel LIRR freight tunnel. But it would not be, we instead moved forward into the smoke, just without the A/C. Ok, there really wasn't any smoke, but it smelled like smoke. I also think that this was the most talking I have ever seen in a subway car excluding school kids. And I took a lot of digital photos at Canarsie. Let me go see how they came out...
Go here http://www.brianweinberg.com/photos/subtalkr143trip/ to see some of my photos from the trip today.
Nice pics.
I especially like the shot of two R143s with that rustbirdschool car pair. Very nice...Composition is fairly good...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
Thanks...but this is how it worked - place camera totally against rusty fence surrounding yard, look at LCD viewerfinder, and click. Composition consisted of what you/the camera could see between any two links in the chain link fence :) But this is one of the few instances I've found my digital camera to have an advantage over film cameras. The LCD viewfinder proved invaluable.
Nice work BMdoobieW...
Good to have run into you and Dave on the trip. Too bad you couldn't have hung around with us on the avenue...maybe I'll catch ya on the next one.
BMTman
Sure, thanks. And it was nice meeting you and the rest of the guys.
Nice shots, BMdoobieW. It was good meeting you and seeing the other ten again.
Not surprisingly, I got similar photos to yours. Two of them are on my Webshots page:
end shots of R26 and R142 with Richie climbing out of the 143
7770 and 7771 behind chain-link fence
I also added six photos from earlier in my trip to my Webshots Railfan Potpourri 7 page.
thanks for the links to your photos
Bob, just curious. What camera do you use recently? I enjoy you photo very much.
Recently my father gave me a digital camera- Canon PowerShot S40. I use it to take some photos on Acela Express. I enjoy it very much.
Chaohwa
Thanks, Chaohwa; it's a Fugi Finepix; I don't remember the model number, but it's 4.3 megapixels.
Bob
Heh heh...I'm currently using a 1.3 Megapixel Fuji Finepix
...Fugi Finepix; I don't remember the model number, but it's 4.3 megapixels chuchubob
I'm currently using a 1.3 Megapixel Fuji Finepix bmdoobiew
I consulted with an expert before making my purchase...Harry Beck told me that 1.3 megapixels was easily sufficient for posting train/transit photos on the internet. Then when I learned that I was going to become a grandfather, I went for the larger capacity with the thought of eventually making photo quality prints.
I've found the excess capacity helpful when I wish to crop a larger photo and still have enough size for a decent photo:
cropped telephoto shot
OK here are the ten who joined our very pleasent "Field Trip".
At Main Street at 4 PM it was Mike, aka RIPTA42HopeTunnel. Along the way we pick up ChoChoBob & John, aka, Q-Dash 7.
I made a detour with friends in tow to do some MetroCard trading with a friend who loves mass transit cards, but not railfanning. Even got a signed baseball from him for my grandson (but his son got it & doesn't know from what team. The player is #6, so my daughter will be on the internet to ID the player)
At 14th & 8th we were all there (Howard Fein, Piort D., David Greenberg, BMdoobieW, Sparky, Lou from Brooklyn, ChoChoBob, Q-Dash 7, & myself) except one, the BMTman met us at Union Sq.
The ride was pleasent vs. fantastic, i.e. the R-142s & 143 aren't railfan friendly, but I was happy for the chance to ride it & the company too. We got many odd looks as we occupied seats on both sides of the front car. Regulars don't normally see a group talking to each other this way. As you can see from the photos taken that the Red Birds are very easy to get close to. We were told that the track they are on is longer then most so there's room for the two cars plus a stored full set of R-143s. They are the oldest R-E-D birds in the system. Gee, think someone picked these two cars on purpose ?
There was also an incident with a passenger at Union Sq. which required the Conductor to wait with the passenger for EMS & the train to go to Canarsie light. That Conductor turned out to be our very own Mark W. We caught up with him at Canarsie. A group of us dinned with him. We left about 1/2 half hour before his next trip on a R-40.
David & BMdoobieW left before us. I parted from the remaining group at Broadway Junction & waited a long time for the J. It was a R-38 set that ran Skip Stop.
Coming soon:
- SIRT
- Beaches of Rock & Long
Mr rt__:^)
R40M you mean there are no Slants left on the L.
I parted from the remaining group at Broadway Junction & waited a long time for the J. It was a R-38 set that ran Skip Stop.
Are you serious? How did it get way out there? Was it a rerouted C train? Or do you mean an R-42 set?
In any case, thanks for planning this. Did you make it to PC Expo yesterday? If you heard my name at the 4:15 drawing for a Palm i705, yes, that was me.
R-38 vs. 42 ... well both are 50 % fluted ... hmmm 42s are assigned to the J ... guess you can tell I'm a IRT man ;-)
PC Expo ... yes made it there yesterday.
My free ticket was for the DV (there was 3 shows in one).
So I was lined up at 10 AM & they told me to go downstairs, for a swipe & a new badge holder ... picky picky.
Made it thru in 2 hours, a record for me ... wasn't impressed, e.g.
with the stuff to get or see.
I was on the 12:59 to LI, after time for a bite to eat at Penn Stn, so I didn't hear your name called out ... you won GREAT ! I didn't even enter.
P.S. LIRR MOW equip. was out in force, a nice after the show treat for this railfan.
BTW, This was Lou from Brooklyn's trip, so I was just part of his core group that turned the idea into reality.
P.P.S. Friday am heading to Atlantic City ..... for baseball !
That's right they have a AA team there.
Mr rt__:^)
As long as you don't have them on Saturdays, I will definitly try to be on the SIRT and Rockaway trips! Besides Mark W, who was the other MTA guy that you knew? The one who brought the R143's into the yard.
Field Trips that my group of friends orchestrate are either after work on a week-day or a day trip on a holiday. Sat./Sun. we go out-of-town, e.g. ChoChoBob's overnighter to Philly.
BTW, the Philly trip looks like it's going to be July 13th.
Mr rt__:^)
Have dates been established yet for the SIRT and Beaches trips? Conditions permitting, I hope to go on one or both.
It was a fun trip, thanks to all and Mark W. for sharing his dinner break with us.
It was fun taking the NEWEST CARS in the system to see the OLDEST cars left on TA property.
Maybe next time a trip back to Newark Subway for a ride on the extension or we should wait until HBLR opens up new territory and do both. Just some ideas.
I'm not following all the Amtrak mess threads, so if this has already been posted, sorry.
Don Phillips' column in today's Washington Post gives an overview of Amtrak's historical financial problems.
For Amtrak, Which Funding Track Now?
Thanks for posting, Bob... an excellent article.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i notice on locomotives engineers dont do the whole "CHOOWWWWW" like subway cars do. i went up to take a exam to get a job with Metro North last tuesday. when my train arrived in Grand Central, i noticed the engineer dumped by applying a full service brake by placing the brake handle all the way to the right, then he turned this little knob that said OUT. and train slowly released all of the air from the brake system. and then he removed the brake handle and put it on the side and he took his keys out. now i understand this, but how would u dump a genesis or a locomotive without a removeable brake handle?
If that was an MU I guess it is pssible to cut out those brake valves without dumping them. On all pre-war MU's that I knew, like Low-V's, R9 etc you could set [properly] full service,wait for the brake exhaust to stop, and then take off the handle. Beginning with the R10 as kow it you had to dump them, so the proper way was to test the deadman then take the handle off . On locomotives as that is the basis of your question if emergency was desired which is normally only in emergencies you would place the brake valve handle in emergency...then you would get theCHOWWWW.. Under most conditions the most you'd set is full service, depending on the brake pipe pressure...20,23,26,29,32 [this is from 70 to 110 lbs]. Normally you'd leave the angle cock open on whatever you leave behind and then that portion would dump. This was i freight service where I worked on MRL. "Bottling" or closig the angle cock leavig only service brake on portion being left was outlawed. Whe we parked a full train w/locos or lco's only we never dumped them...but coul if necessary.
It can be done, especially with LIRR's old equipment being both diesel and electric. The prototype bilevel train along with the FL9AC's didn't make the chowwww noise, but the MU's and old diesel coaches did. In emergency was the only time that the old diesel fleet did that, but MU's do that all of the time. The new fleet makes a hissing noise for a few seconds and then "chhh".
ah cause on DE30s, i notice engineers usually key out and they go CHOOWWWW like a subway car. i just notice other locomotives dont do that. and as far as dumping a EMU, u can cut out a brake valve without dumping. u just have to be REALLY fast. if u turn that little handle to centered, and remove ur key all while putting handle into emergency without letting it go fast enuf, i have seen engineers be able to bottle up the air. they do this to speed up relays, altho it is pointless considering the brake test requires u to dump anyway. oh well, it does speed up those relays at jamaica where a train leaves the yard, relays and becomes a express to NY usually.
Ms don't have removable anything except for the master key.
i notice on locomotives engineers dont do the whole "CHOOWWWWW" like subway cars do. i went up to take a exam to get a job with Metro North last tuesday. when my train arrived in Grand Central, i noticed the engineer dumped by applying a full service brake by placing the brake handle all the way to the right, then he turned this little knob that said OUT. and train slowly released all of the air from the brake system. and then he removed the brake handle and put it on the side and he took his keys out. now i understand this, but how would u dump a genesis or a locomotive without a removeable brake handle? i mean what position would u put it in?
Okay, this is my first time on SubTalk. I'm usually on BusTalk. I'm trying to figure out which trains come from each yard. I know that the IND yard in Kew Gardens handles the E, F, G, N, R, V and W. However, what lines come from the other yards? Thanks to whoever in advance!
Have you tried going to Subway Yards on the NYCsubway.org's home page?
That yard (Jamaica Yard) does NOT handle the N and W. How the hell would the N and W even get there? The yard does handle the other lines you listed plus the Grand Street Shuttle.
This should be listed in the FAQ (I checked, it isn't).
You should be able to find the info that you seek HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Since it isn't in the FAQ or the Yards Page, I can post the rundown. The lines are all serviced at those yards/shops unless there is no shop at that location or it is indicated otherwise.
By yard:
A-Division
240th-1
239th-2/5
Jerome-4
Westchester (Pelham)-6
Lenox-3
Livonia-3, 42nd St Shuttle, plus layups for the 2, 4, and 5 lines
Corona-7
East 180th-5
Unionport-5
B-Division
207th-A, C
Concourse-B, D, 4 layups
Coney Island Complex (Stillwell, Avenue X, Coney Island)-W, Q, N, layups for the G, F, and M
East New York-J, M, Z, L
Pitkin-A, C
Rockaway Park-A, Rockaway Park Shuttle
Jamacia-E, F, G, R, V
Canarsie-L
Fresh Pond-M
You forgot some stuff on A Div. Add the 1 to Livonia as serviced there in addition to the bronx. Add the 3 to Unionport for layups. Otherwise, it's accurate!
I remember back in the early 80's, there seemed to be a lot of mixing of different types of trains on any particular line. I don't mean in the same train (which was also done in years past), but I mean more than one or two types of trains assigned to a line. Today you really don't see that.
For example, on the M train, I remember riding all the 60 foot cars prior to GO on that line. I remember the R16's, R27-30, R32, R38, R40, R42. They all seemed to run on the line. That only stopped when they started rebuilding the R32-38's. After that they never returned, AFIK. Then finally it became only R40-42, as it is today.
Today, it seems any particular line is assigned one or two groups of cars only. Years back it seems that you would see a set of R32-38's on let's say the M line, the next train might be a set of R42's, the next may be a set of R27-30's, the next R40's, etc. Did all the lines have this, or was the M unique with that.
The goal at that time was to have at least one train of air condition cars at any given time. So the R40M/42 were used system wide. Remember it took forever for the TA to accept the air condition concept in its rolling stock.
The goal at that time was to have at least one train of air condition cars at any given time.
Ah, I didn't even think of that. That makes sense in the early 80's! Was it also common practice to mix the various types of cars, on any given line before the 80's? I don't remember into the 70's, as I was just a kid then, and wasn't around in the 60's or before that. (again, I don't mean in one trainset, I mean types of cars assigned to any particular line.)
There was a brief period from 1969 until perhaps 1971 that mixed consists were common on the IND and BMT. I referred to them as smorgasbord trains. This was also common practice on the IRT, but at least most of the cars blended stylistically together.
Maybe this happens more often than one would believe. Yesterday morning I took the 11:36 from Jamaica to Hicksville. It was announced that the train would stop at Hillside Maintenance Facility for employees only- certainly a routine occurrence.
We got to Hillside, the doors opened and closed, and the train stood there for a few seconds. Over the PA came "Open the doors again, some passengers got off here." "HUH?!" "REPEAT- open the doors. SOME PASSENGERS DISEMBARKED IN ERROR." The whole car burst into laughter.
From the front window, we could hear a conductor yelling over and over "Please get back on the train! This is not a passenger stop!" There must've been a language barrier, because I heard a female voice from the platform yell something like "Ees Brentwood?" After a minute or so, and some translation assistance from another passenger, we were off again.
Makes ya wonder about human intelligence. OK, to give the benefit of the doubt, let's say they never took the train Brentwood before. Whether or not you heard the announcement (or understand English), wouldn't you know better than to get off at a stop situated next to a storage yard that's marked "Hillside Facility"? That's not taking into consideration that one should expect more than a five-minute ride for the cost of an off-peak fare from a city zone to Brentwood.
I inquired of the two off-duty employees near us if they ever saw this happen before. Neither had. What's common is passengers who (a) refuse to leave a train when it's been put out of service at its terminal; (b) passengers who panic when the train skips their stop or goes on the 'wrong branch' despite many announcements beforehand.
There were no further incidents of this nature. Of course, it's quite possible they got off at the next revenue stop, New Hyde Park, thinking THAT was Brentwood.
Actually, if this represents the first visit to NY for a foreigner who is having difficulty with the language (and you don't know if that person also had a hearing impairment or visual impairment as well), it's not totally unreasonable for that to happen.
It's not a big deal. The passenger was put safely back on the train, and hopefully the conductor, understanding the problem, pointed out the correct stop at the proper time.
From the tone of your post, I assume that passenger could not have relied on you for that assistance.
I don't think this incident was so funny. Its possible that the person doesn't speak English or just got confused.
Kudos to the crew for not leaving them there and instead, getting them back on the train safely.
All right, I can see your points. Maybe my tone was too sarcastic. Maybe it comes from too many instances in which I've seen passengers do the exact opposite of what they've been advised- i.e. telling them to go upstairs to transfer only to see them get on the train across the platform instead. Some people who do this speak and understand English perfectly.
I've ridden many LIRR trains that stopped at Hillside, but never before did there appear to be passengers who got off there in error. Maybe they have, but in at least in this particular case the crew checked the platform just in case. Maybe it's standard procedure. The LIRR and MTA would probably face a huge lawsuit if civilians ended up in a maintenance facility and somehow got hurt- or claimed emotional duress.
A slap on the wrist for me.
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
The migrants get confused on the bus too, often getting off at wrong stops, then running after the bus realizing their mistake.
>> It was announced that the train would stop at Hillside Maintenance Facility for employees only- certainly a routine occurrence. <<
I never went that way, so I have to ask. On how many cars do the doors open at Hillside when it stops there? It seems to me that at such a stop, as few doors as possible should open (preferably just the head car), and all the employees exiting should be in the head car. How long is the platform at Hillside?
The entire train opens at Hillside. I know it seems dumb for a maintenance stop, but there are a lot of employees there!
I believe it's a full 12 car platform -- might even be longer than 12.
CG
Howard, this was just a Conductor error.
I've seen this occur many times & the routine is that the employees group at the head car or the first Conductor. The engineer stops on the marks and the Conductor opens 1/2 a set of doors at the door location vs. a cab. This way the Conductor is right there to challenge someone who shouldn't be getting off there.
Mr rt__:-(
Mr. T --
You're thinking of Boland's Landing and some of the other employee stops. Hillside has the full 12 car platform, and they do a regular opening of all doors. There's even a printed schedule for Hillside.
CG
Me thinks the LIRR is asking for trouble ... if all the doors open how do they deal with the security risk of someone who they don't want to get off ?
I would imagine it's no big deal if a non-employee gets off at Hillside. Someone most likely would stop them on the walkway to the maintenance facility, and direct them to the next correct train.
I bettcha that happens quite often. It looks like a regular LIRR stop, with standard signage and a railing like many of the other platforms have.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Whether or not you heard the announcement (or understand English), wouldn't you know better than to get off at a stop situated next to a storage yard that's marked "Hillside Facility"?
The fact that the platform's located next to a storage yard means nothing; there's no reason why a real station couldn't be so located.
As far as the markings are concerned, they're not visible from every seat on the train.
I wish that was a real revenue station because it is only 5 blocks from my house unlike Jamaica which is 30 blocks from my house. My neighbor's mother's husband used that station everyday to go to manhatten (circa 1940)
I need a little help with geography: Other stations east of Jamaica on the Main Line include Queens Village, Hollis, Bellerose, Floral Park. Are you near any of them? If so, you could hop on the Hempstead train, and change at Jamaica for a Manhattan-bound train (the Hempstead train, if I recall right, originates at, and returns to, Atlantic Av-Brooklyn).
Rush hours some Hempstead trains run to Manhattan.
Hollis is about 6 blocks away from HSF along the Main Line.
Thank you for your point about Hempstead service.
So you do have convenient access to the LIRR! Maybe not every train, but still pretty good.
I did some light railfanning on Saturday specifically to see how many more new cars have been delivered. As we passed the yard area, I spotted cars 143, 144, and 145 sitting in consecutive order. That means at least eight of the 12 cars ordered in December of 2000 are now on RTD property with four more to go.
Although I didn't see any cars in the 140s in service last Saturday, I have seen them on the Southwest Corridor while on my way home along Santa Fe Drive. That still doesn't explain the occasional single-car C train I see during peak hours every so often. You'd think there are enough cars now so they can run two-car C trains all the time, even during peak hours. They're touting the C line as an alternative to get downtown to work. There are posters inside the LRVs stating that C trains have plenty of seats, etc., etc.
At Union Station, nearly all of the RTD propaganda about FasTracks from when the new spur line opened is still in place on the benches in the waiting room.
I also found out from a reliable source (a friend who works for RTD)that RTD is all set to place a 34-car order next month for the Southeast Corridor now under construction. That should give Siemens plenty of time to complete the order - four years - before the new corridor is scheduled to be finished.
How many trains has Denver ordered so far from Siemens anyway? Are they SD-100s?
Speaking of which, do you know any differences between the SD-100s and the SD-160s? Calgary's got 32 of 'em on order for the South, Northwest and Northeast extensions...I still can't find a comparison chart between the 100's and the 160's.
Some help here?
-J!
Yes, all of Denver's LRVs are Siemens SD-100s. So far a total of 49 vehicles have been ordered, with at least eight cars of the last order of 12 delivered. The current maintenence yard is bursting at the seams; they have no more room for additional cars. There is talk of storing them on the Central Platte Valley Spur's third track at the Pepsi Center station until the proposed new facilty opens.
I am really wondering if there will ever be a day when the LIRR decides to really clean up the area surrounding the Murray Hill station on the Port Washington line. I really seems to be getting out of control. Why can't someone spend money to put up new fencing in the area?....barb wiring maybe?....granted, the station really looks like a hole in the ground as it is, but ever since the graffitti artists arrived in the late '80s, things seems to have gone downhill for the station at Murray Hill. It looks like it belongs in a belighted neighborhood......
It's in pretty bad shape, I agree.
The LIRR, prompted by the State Senator for the area (and state grant money) has restored and upgraded Bayside and is doing the same for Auberndale. Broadway is to receive a full upgrade as well.
Murray Hill needs a lot of work. Because of the location and the way it is built, rebuilding it will be an expensive proposition. So it also needs visible advocates who will make noise and persuade legislators to help come up with grant money. Are there any businesses in the area that could start an "adopt-a-station program" for litter pickup and graffitti removal?
>>>Broadway is to receive a full upgrade as well. <<<
One can hope. They're redoing the main station house, which in my mind didn't need much work. The true problem with Broadway is the disintegrating platforms as well as the tin shelter and the old eastbound passenger shelter, which are truly decrepit.
One story I hear is that the city is responsible for the facility, NOT the LIRR. Any truth to that?
www.forgotten-ny.com
From what I understand, if it is on LIRR property, then it is the LIRR that is responsible for the upkeep, including the Broadway train station.
The LIRR only owns a few of the stations from what I heard once. I could be wrong, but I thought that is what I heard once. Alot of the local towns and villages own the stations or lots. So it may be the same for the city stations. Maybe that's why MN's statioons are in better shape than the LIRR's? Although some of the stations that I know for fact are LIRR property are in just as bad a shape as the ones that are town/village/city property. Netro North's stations just seem to be maintained much better than the LIRR's, for whatever reason.
I discuss the problem on a recent Forgotten page.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/pwbranch/pwbranch.html
I was just down in Penn Station and I noticed that the 2PM Acela Express to DC (train # 2113) has been cancelled. Anyone know why?
I cqn hear the announcement now: "all aboard for the 210 ACELA (regional, that is). THose with first class tickets.........well, you just paid a couple hundred more for.....well, nothing. Look at the bright side, though. At least you're gonna go somewhere, were not stopping.......yet." I hope no one has the misfortune of sittin next to one angry AE passenger
I have been that angry AE passenger before, trust me, when you get a whole load of us on an unreserved Acela Regional that stops in Newark, DE, Aberdeen, MD, and Trenton, NJ, we will not be happy bunch by the time we reach New York, especially when none of the train crew will tell us where we can get our refunds.
If the reason you are put on the Acela Regional is not your fault (i.e. missed train, desire to travel earlier, etc), you don't get the refund. If it is Amtrak's fault (i.e. cancelled train), you get the difference between the two fares and then the satisfaction guarentee, but you have to take the time to get them.
It's very easy to get the customer satisfaction guarantee. Hold onto the ticket receipt which has your reservation number. Call Amtrak and find out if somebody answers the phone. LOL. Press 0 to skip Julie and go to a reservations agent. Tell the agent you want a customer service certificate. You will be put in touch with the department. Give them your name and reservation number. Explain what happened and in a few days you'll get the certificate.
Michael
Washington, DC
That is what I did. Go look in the archives for the whole debate of whether or not railfans should redeem the certificates.
I am sure Amtrak really needs my 35 dollars right now...
2 more days left of Amtrak! I'm afraid to say it but the economy's going to hell. A bus strike that's never gonna end + an Amtrak Fallout?!
Not looking good transit-wise or economy-wise.
What's next-the MTA Buses and Subways? Heck why not? It may happen with baseball in a few months too-same reason for the 1994 shortened season.
Bottom Line: Amtrak is NOT going to get their $200 Million b/c the gov't needs it for funding from 9/11.
#1979 7 Flushing Local
Heard on the radio that Bush promised Toricelli today that Amtrak would get the money.
He told Giuliani that NYC would get the money too. :)
I'm sure Amtrak will get the funding to continue on life support a little longer and that this crisis will be resolved in time. But SHEESH. Wasn't even on the damned radar a couple of days ago ... and that's more upsetting than anything else that all of us have to be jerked around from one crisis to the next, real or imagined. Is there ANY leadership?
Allowing problems to fester and then "solving them" is what politicians define as "leadership". Suppose Gunn had issued his report to Congress and that they quietly worked out a solution 3 weeks ago.
Then nobody would have ever perceived any threat to their services, and as a result none of the politicians would be able to claim that they solved the problem for their constituents.
CG
Yoh vern cam hear an'd luk at 'is USA on fahr.
To give to contractors during building season. Why has I-95 in westcheaster and fairfield (CT) countys been under construction atleast every 2 years since 1980 (found out from friend's mother).
Perhaps because not enough Accelerants were present?
This may be a dumb question, but what do you SubTalkers think about NYCTA helping out Amtrak? Or being a Partner with Amtrak?
well, the first part is right. How can a STATE- FUNDED subway agency help a NATIONAL (FEDERALLY FUNDED) RAILROAD? MNCRR, and LIRR, maybe. But not NYCT
well, the first part is right. How can a STATE- FUNDED subway agency help a NATIONAL (FEDERALLY FUNDED) RAILROAD? MNCRR, and LIRR, maybe. But not NYCT
MNCRR, the LIRR, and NYCT are all funded through the state MTA. So MN or the LIRR are no different than the NYCT.
though there is the issue of trackage, and Penn station. So they do have SOME intrest in amtrak
Despite some figures NYCT has not REALLY been i the black at any time I can remember; even when it showed a profit capital investments like new cars, etc were paid for by outside help. So why would we borrow from Peter to lend or give to Paul? That goes for any branch of MTA.
though there is the issue of trackage, and Penn station. So they do have SOME intrest in amtrak (the commuter lines)
I don't think it's possible, and furthermore I don't see the point. NYCTA and Amtrak don't share one inch of track.
Well I brought up the Topic because NYCTA has tons & tons of money and maybe can help Amtrak out a little.
who has tons of money? Sure, the gross income is plenty, but the net income is barely enough to cover their current car orders, let alone sticking their nose where it shouldn't be. Besides, why should NYCTA care about Amtrak?
You do have a point there about why should the TA care about Amtrak, But the TA does have tons of money though.
It does not. Read the post after this.
The MTA has a DEFICIT. Always has, probably always will. The only agency with a surplus is the TBTA (Bridges and Tunnels), and that surplus doesn't go far enough to fill the rest of the MTA taxes. Ever looked at a utility bill and noticed "MTA SURCHARGE" or the extra .25% in your sales tax? That .25% is the "temporary" MTA sales tax surcharge.
Maybe the state should help out Amtrak, which would make sense only if that help involves lines in NY State. Still, NY already does subsidize Amtrak's Empire Service and pay rent for LIRR to use Amtrak tracks.
So tell me, how else will the NYCTA help Amtrak?
P.S. This whole post is a reply generally to the thread originator, so don't complain that you weren't the one who posted what I'm responding to.
>>>The MTA has a DEFICIT. Always has, probably always will.<<<
Then what was all of this carrying on, a few years ago, about the MTA having a surplus?
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember that a few years ago. I don't know how that happened, or whatever became of the extra money.
300 milion dispeared from the MTA.
Silly little burp known as an "economy" ... a fluke. :)
Not even that...it was less of a deficit than was anticipated, which the Straphangers' Campaign trumpeted as a "surplus" in an effort to coerce NYCT to pay for additional service, the need for which was debatable at best -- and NYCT's physical ability to operate that service was in question as well (a four-minute headway on all subway lines, as the Straphangers' Campaign called for, would result in one-minute headways on some of the trunks, which is not possible given the current signal system).
David
Actually, as I saw it in the legislative report, it was higher than anticipated receipts against the budget statements. Sure it was gone in a nanosecond, but it's the first time higher than expected revenues had occurred. Of course, it resulted in higher costs (I *think* additional trains were added owing to the demand) but it WAS a "surplus" in that strange Enron style accounting politicians use to pound their chests. :)
That's just it -- it was NEVER a surplus. If NYCT projects a $300 million deficit for a given year, and the deficit at the end of that year turns out to be $200 million (whether due to higher-than anticipated receipts, lower-than-anticipated expenses, or a combination of the two), then the deficit is still $200 million. The Straphangers' Campaign and its sycophants would have people believe that the $200 million DEFICIT is a $100 million SURPLUS!
In any case, there aren't gobs of money sitting at Jay Street for Amtrak, or anyone else, to grab. There just aren't.
David
Oh, ABSOLUTELY agreed ... I was under the impression from a legislative report I read last year that NYCT was actually in a cash-POSITIVE condition for a few weeks. But then again, I already made my snide comment about politicians and "Enron accounting" But Straphangers ... wowsers. The only group I've seen with less credibility is those clowns that complain about the fat in Chinese food. You know the group I mean - the food nazis.
But I sit corrected. I know NYCT ended that year in a smaller than expected deficit, but I thought I had seen that in one quarter, there actually was a balance sheet surplus that got eaten by normal costs the following quarter that neutralized it. I forget the specific report, but it was one of those "subways are more popular than ever" reports I came across while looking for something else.
I have no complaints about subsidizing mass transport ... except for the airlines. :)
Cause it used to be 20 minutes express from 179st 40 years ago. Now it is 37 minutes (on the express E from 179 at 4:17 PM weekdays). Same exact route, down hillside express, down queens blvd express, 53 st tunnel.
I'm not sure what the running time on the E train now vs. 40 years ago has to do with my post. I was talking about NYCT's deficit vs. the Straphangers' Campaign's assertion (a year or two ago) that there was a surplus, and about the physical inability of the transit system to handle the kind of headways the Straphangers' Campaign was calling for at the time.
In any event, the 4:16-1/2 E from 179th Street is due at World Trade Center at 5:03 PM, making the scheduled running time 46-1/2 minutes. I don't have timetables from 40 years ago, but I seriously doubt the running time between these two points has gone up THAT much, even taking into account that E trains were running express on Eighth Avenue and continuing into Brooklyn (passing Chambers Street, not terminating at Hudson Terminal/World Trade Center) at that time.
David
Well I brought up the Topic because NYCTA has tons & tons of money and maybe can help Amtrak out a little.
Tons of money???......HELLO, 2ND AVE SUBWAY!!!!! And all of the other projects the subway needs!
True!
Acela, please do some research before stating that NYCTA has money to toss away. That is the most unsupported comment one can make about our subway system. GP38 said it all: Second Avenue Subway, not to mention deferred maintenance....
"Well I brought up the Topic because NYCTA has tons & tons of money and maybe can help Amtrak out a little."
If they had that much money, then where is the Second Avenue Subway?
Agreed 200 Million is a piddling little sum...
but that only covers operations until the next budget is written.
It was quite irresponsible to mortgage properties to pay for current operating expenses. They should have shut down then instead of doing that.
Either Amtrak is a project worth doing all the way, or else it is a hole that needs closing. You cannot continue in a half assed way.
Yes other operating authorities should help Amtrak out. And indeed they do so all over the country. Including here. LIRR and NJT are paying thier own way on these lines, but they cannot subsidize the Empire Builder. (Are you listening Gov Hoven?) [No he ain't listening.]
A consortium of NEC operating Authorities should take over and operate the NEC themselves, and kick AMTK out of there. Just rent them some track space for their long distance trains that call here, and well run everything on this end.
Yes it will be subsidized by the peoples who benefit from it, but at least it is out from under congress' nose.
Elias
If you saw my Post down below, you would see that they are building the second ave. subway, I posted two pictures.
The Second Avenue Subway is not being built at this time, no matter how many pictures of it being "built" are posted. It's still in the planning stages -- and that's official.
David
Preparing!
Do you see a tunnel being excavated?
HAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Your kidding me right? Lots of money, where is SAS?
You should have stopped with the first thought.
-Hank
True, Now that you mention it, NYCTA would look a mess with Amtrak on it's hands.
No cantanary or diesels in the subway so equipment sharing is out of the question.
"No cantanary or diesels in the subway so equipment sharing is out of the question."
Not to say anything of Superliners, eh?
Now that the LIRR concourse and its 34th Street entrance have been finished lo these 5+ years, and NJ Transit is completing its East End concourse, does anyone know if there are plans to change the horrible Seventh Avenue entrance to Penn Station?
Or will it be up to LIRR + NJT (poss. + Metro North) once Amtrak moves to Farley? If it or successors complete that plan, anyway?
What is "Farley"?
The Farley Post Office, a large part of which will become a part of the new Penn Station.
Is that the *main* post office (10001)?
Or is it some smaller location on that site.
Are they going to pull the Post Office Down
(It looks like a big substantial structure)
Where are postal operations going to move to?
Elias
Supposedly, the Postal Service will maintain some operations in the west (Ninth Ave.) side of the Farley Building, while the east side would be converted to use by Amtrak, since it's just across the street from the current terminal.
Somehow, I suspect that the conversion of the Farley Post Office to Amtrak use will become a reality about when trains start zipping along the Second Avenue line.
I'm starting to think that myself.....
I'm not so sure I want Amtrak to move to Farley.
On the one hand, it's a much more attractive building, without a doubt.
On the other, it's a block further from all subway connections aside from the A/C/E.
"On the other, it's a block further from all subway connections aside from the A/C/E."
The *station* will NOT move. Access from all subways to the platforms remains identical to what is in use now.
Already the AMTK parts of the station are at Eighth Avenue, what difference if they have a fancy eneterance on the other side of the street?
Elias
Exactly. The platforms already run under the post office. The station "itself" meaning the tracks, platforms etc will still be there, and will not move. Amtrak's "area" will move with new stairways to the platforms from the "post office" station. I believe the old stairways and entrances will remain, in addition to the new area. I assume New Jersey Transit will take over the current Amtrak area fully. Then you have an Amtrack section, a LIRR station, and an Amtrak station all interconnected.
But what good does that do me if I have to walk all the way past 8th with my luggage if I need to buy tickets, check baggage, etc.?
You already have to walk to 8th Avenue with your baggage! That is where AMTRAK is. All AMTK is doing is moving across 8th Ave.
A moving walkway to and from 7th Avenue would be a nice touch.
Elias
Amtrak currently occupies the western third or so of the current Penn Station. It would be moving essentially half an avenue block west. Not the end of the world, but less than ideal. OTOH, it might be worth it to finally be back in a decent building. As I said, I can see both sides on this one.
Yeah, I can see both sides also. I agree the old post office is kind of on the "edge of town". But not terribly. I guess when they built the "real" Penn station that was kind of way on the edge of town also, but development followed.
The funds for the project were already appropriated.
>>>Somehow, I suspect that the conversion of the Farley Post Office to Amtrak use will become a reality
about when trains start zipping along the Second Avenue line. <<,
Agrred: The Post Office is simply not going to give up that space; the politicians can bluster all they want, but Penn-at-Farley ain't gonna happen.
Anyway, I don't want to be getting out at 9th Avenue from amtrak, if it survives.
What they should do is rip down the box and the hatbox and build a new Penn on 7th Avenue...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well ideally, MSG gets moved to a new building, which it needs anyway. MSG is ripped down, and a replica of the old Penn Station is built on it's old location. Well.......in a perfect world......
More specifically, Farley was Postmaster General during FDR's administration. Farley knew FDR was an avid stamp collector and had a whole series of souvenir sheets issued which became known as "Farley's Follies".
Why should Amtrak care ever so slightly about asthetics with it's current finaces?
BTW, who is paying for the Farley reconstruction into the new Penn Station? If it's Amtrak, we're in trouble. Is this project still on track?
Farley reconstruction was a specific line item funded separately as a federal appropriation. It has nothing to do with the current situation. It was, in part, one item of bacon (or corned beef) that our representatives and Senators get to take home to constituents (I'm not saying it isn't useful).
What is wrong with the Seventh Av entrance? You go down an escalator then go straight if you need NJ Transit or Amtrak or go down another escalator to the right to get to the LIRR concourse. What is horrible about that?
It's not the layout, it's the condition. It looks like crap.
It's not the layout, it's the condition. It looks like crap.
Correct. It's grim, dim, deep, dark and badly lit. The ceiling tiles are filthy, the stair treads are corroded and there's no useful signage whatsoever. And I could go on.
I've been meaning to task this one for some time...
As one descends the ramps to the 7 platforms at TS -- the ones encircling the lone escalator at the eastern end of the 7 platform, near the tower -- at the bottom of Ramp 2, where one must turn left to continue down Ramp 3, there is a walled-off passage which one can see (if one peers through the vent-fan enclosure) is still tiled and continues downward and veers off to the left.
Can anyone shed any light on where this passage used to lead? How long ago was it walled off?
Was it perhaps just another way to get to the closed-off stairway that is between the escalator and the tower at the east end of the 7 platform?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Interesting question. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right now the passageway is partially open with the West half being tiled on walls and floor and the East half behind plywood. Looking through cracks in the plywood I saw only bare walls behind. I guess we'll find out when they open the East half.
If I am understanding you correctly, it seems that the passageway that you see is Ramp #4 which goes down and to the left and connects to Ramp #5 which goes down to the lower mezzanine level and you will effectivly be standing right underneath where you peered into the vent. From there I think you should see stairs PL9 which will take you to the platform. I'm not sure if this stairway is open. It is the farthest east stairway, and is between the escalator and the dispatcher. Let me know if this makes any sense to you or anyone else.
--BMdoobieW
>> I'm not sure if this stairway is open. It is the farthest east stairway, and is between the escalator and the dispatcher. <<
Yahtzee! And yes, that stairway is closed off to the general public, as that entire section of the lower mezzanine was also closed off to the public some time ago (the brick work has all the earmarks of the 60s-era renovations within the subway system...)
>> Let me know if this makes any sense to you or anyone else. <<
Perfect sense.
I understand now. It seems they closed it off when they enclosed that section of the lower mezzanine.
Thanks!
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Glad I could be of service!
To my knowledge there are what 4 or 5 R143 train sets in operation on the L line..... Now what is going to happen to the cars that these trains have replaced? They dont seem to be at East NY yard i think. Where are they going to end up???
Some of them are at Coney Island Yard.
It must be getting tight at ENYD. They had a pair of slants out on the old Fulton lead for storage. They almost never use that. Looks like it can hold three 60 footers.
Today, I spotted some car deliveries being made on the New York & Atlantic Railroad on the flyover at Fresh Pond Freight Yard. Noticed on flatbed cars were:
LIRR M 7's: Car #'s 7001 and 7012 were the only ones visible. The others (if any) were behind the trees and were blocked from my viewing point.
NYCTA R142's: 6976, 6977, 6978, 6979, 6980.
So How many M-7's are in service currently?
I could be wrong, but I don't think any are in service yet. I believe they are still in testing?
They better Fail. Cause I WILL have my railfan window!
No, the LIRR WILL have their new equipment! No matter how badly they fail, Bombardier will patch 'em up and try again!
I actually like the M-7s, the black front especially. And I like not having a railfan window (gasp! heaven forbid!). Why? Because now there's no reason for me to get annoyed if the engineer leaves his cab door open, no reason for me to stand for an hour, no reason for me to run to the front of the train. I can just sit down and look out the side, knowing I have have just as good a view as any other passenger on the train.
My only problem with the M-7 is that they are the replacement for my beloved ACMUs (Metro North).
none
Those R-142s will be in the system by night fall. Unfortunately, I won't see them!
-Stef
R142's 6976-6980 I know will be going to service within the next week or so.
As far as LIRR, this will probably be a 4 car test train. However if there were more cars to it, then it could be 1 whole test train. (8 cars perhaps) These junkers won't probably see passenger service until the Fall. And I really don't want to see them in service because these cars look UGLY!
I got 4 words for LIRR:
Let the failures CONTINUE!
I think these M-7 cars are gonna be another huge disaster on LIRR'S part just like the DE/DM30's were. And expect some stop and go action just on these M-7s just like on the R62A's.
Bombardier's braking system is very unsafe! Jolt-N-Go!!!
I'll take an M-1 or an M-3 over these pieces of scrap metal anyday.
Budd Rules-look at the R32s!!!
#9862 LIRR
#3444 E Queens Blvd Express
And I really don't want to see them in service because these cars look UGLY!
I guess the LIRR is going for the prize of the ugliest new equipment in the system. It already has the ugliest engines, the DM30's. The Tri-levels are nice, but the engines are the ugliest I've ever seen. Well they might as well make the whole sytem ugly with the new M7's. Anyone know of any photos online of them? I've only seen them once about 6 months ago when they were being built upstate.
Hopefully, even if they aren't the "prettiest", hopefully the M7's will be mechanically reliable. The last purchase was a total fiasco. The DM30's are ugly AND unreliable.
I bet you the M-7 will be the same-unreliable and LIRR will really be screwed. Try cleanairbus's page: http://cleanairbus.tripod.com/cleanairbus/id48.html
I think he had a pic or 2 of it. YUCK!
#9440 LIRR
Yes, they are rather ugly. I thought they looked better on the bomba site.
Elias
I prey they will catch fire or frames will crack in 2 pieces (where it is hauled out as 2 pieces).
The front-end is very handsome - it's the single leaf I'm not used to seeing.
The DE-30-AC Locomotives looks great also does the new M-7's. The LIRR Double-Deckers are Bi-Levels, not Tri-Level.
"The LIRR Double-Deckers are Bi-Levels, not Tri-Level."
They're neither. In official Long Island suburban real estate-speak, they're "Split-Levels".
CG
Isn't that the same as a Bi-level?
And is there such thing as a Tri Level??
!@#@!# YES!!! The freakin LIRR coaches are tri level...have you even been on one?! Think about it, door entry way at the end of a car, seats to your left, and then you have upstairs and downstairs. So count, how many levels of seating? 1, 2, 3...TRI!
Split-level, as in the definition of many houses in the Bayside area...
.....
Gee...... I am surprised that i still am a member of this site Please cut mine off
The LIRR Double-Deckers are Bi-Levels, not Tri-Level.
lol. Well, whatever they are. I got lambasted here for calling them bi-levels once, and was told they are "tri-levels" cecause they technically have. Now the opposite......oh well, those "things" that the LIRR currently runs on the diesel branches.........
Igonore the above post, it had a typo that I corrected in the other post next to it.
The LIRR Double-Deckers are Bi-Levels, not Tri-Level.
lol. Well, whatever they are. I got lambasted here for calling them bi-levels once, and was told they are "tri-levels" because they technically have three levels. Now the opposite......oh well, those "things" that the LIRR currently runs on the diesel branches.........
Call 'em multi-levels. There we go!
Thaty ought to be pretty safe!.....
Double Deckers!
de/dm30's might look nice, but my god they're not worth the scrap metal they were built with.
IIRC, they are not built of metal.
Elias
Tin? Or oxidizing aluminum?
They better have a cab that you can see through. For the amount of money your giving them you are entitled to a railfan window!
The sad thing is that even if the M7 turns out to be an utter failure, will anyone get the sack for ordering such shit equipment? was anyone fired (or still better yet, taken out and shot) for the DE/DM disaster?
if I were an LIRR commuter, i'd be out for blood right about now.
Actually, most regular commuters have no idea about what's going on with the equipment. They don't put that sort of stuff in the monthly 'Keeping Track' newsletter until the problem is fixed.
That's true. Most commuters on the diesel branches are just happy to have new trains, compared to the disasters the diesel branches used to have. Sure, I loved the GP38's, the F's and the MP15's, and even the old coaches to an extent, they were great from a railfan's perspective, and I miss them. But from a commuters perspective they were an absolute nightmare, and basically filthy pieces of junk rolling the LIRR! We know what a debacle the DM/DE30 purchase has been, but I doubt the general public has too much of an idea what has been going on.
Who can you blame in a corporation?
The M-7's arrived via diesel-pulled consist, right?
The LIRR cars were on flatbed cars with regular freight box cars on both sides of them.
BTW, anyone know why the LIRR decided on single door panels for the M7's? (just like the new diesel cars)
Reliability. LIRR decided that fewer moving parts would mean fewer problems. I don't know how common it is for one leaf of a double-leaf door to stick, but obviously a single-leaf door assembly is simpler.
Aesthetically I'm not used to it that way, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a good decision...
Bollocks.
Now if you had two doors per opening, and one door fails, you could always exit through the remaining operable door.
With the single doors, if it fails, then it means that one car (possibly) full of people that would use two exits are now relegated to one. I've seen it happen with the bi-levels, and it isn't pretty.
I'm not the expert on the subject, so suffice to say that the technical leads at MTA don't agree with you.
With bilevels it's much worse, since you've got two floors worth of people using one door.
It might have to do with a secret plan to avert door holding. It feels weird to hold open one door, especially with the wall right there. Unnatural. But the LIRR doesn't really have a problem in that respect.
It might also be a secret plan to increase standing space. If one doorway is completely useless more people can stand there.
Bombadier took some corners...Wink..Wink
Does anyone know who is the manufacturer of the LIRR M-7s?
Welcome to SubTalk! The manufacturer is Bombardier.
And which has offered $100,000+ jobs to the entire MTA Executive Staff/Board.
Please provide proof of such statements or stop making them.
David
how UGLY did they look ???/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lol !!
This afternoon I observed from the Bedford Park Blvd downtown platform #4 line @ Concourse Yard there was 1 set of R46's (5500 series) layed up. Why were those R46's there anyway? Are the R46's being transferred to the B/D lines?
>>>>>>Are the R46's being transferred to the B/D lines?
Absolutely not.
Maybe someone took a wrong lineup and the train's been impounded. Yeah, that's the ticket. :)
I believe R46s did run on the D way back in the day, like in the 1970's when they didn't look too bad. Not that has anything to do with today.
:-) Andrew
Yes indeed they did, along with 1/9's, 32's, 42's and 44's ...
What was the purpose of the R46's being at Concourse if they are not being transferred there at all? Unless there is a possibility of a transfer to CI and using them for B service when the Manhattan Bridge reopens. The R68's should still be on the D with the rest going on the Q since those are the most reliable set of cars on the B division.
Most likely a school car. My school car took a 46 out of CI yard and rani it up the B route to bedford Pk. last year. I not too long ago saw something like that again. Sometimes it is hard for school car to get either a particular route or a particular car class, so they use whatever they can get. (both yard and road dispatchers are funny about their systems being tied up by school cars.) They probably started out of CIYD, and decided to go uptown instead of Queens.
They probably sent one up there to Train Dude for nostalgia purposes.
If Amtrak does shut down, are there any plans by the MTA to operate more service.Will penn station be shut down to NJT/LIRR trains,if so do theses lines have any plans in place to get customers to Manhattan?
I don't think Amtrak will shut down, but I would assume someone would have to be assigned to the switching at Penn Station.
Someone said on this Board that they are building tracks to divert LIRR trains to Grand Central Station, Is this True?
>>>>>>>Someone said on this Board that they are building tracks to divert LIRR trains to Grand Central Station, Is this True?
Not right now. The tooth fairy hasn't gotten to it yet. She's still working on the R160 order.
Eventually (2010?) the lower level of the 63rd Street tunnel will send some LIRR trains to Grand Central. Unfortunately that won't help the current situation. Although it will make it more obvious that a second terminal in Manhattan is a necessity. The same is true for allowing MN trains into Penn in the long run. That way if there is a problem at Grand Central, MN could still be sent to Penn, and the same for the LIRR, if there is a problem at Penn, they could still go to GCT.
It scares me to think what Penn would be like with GCT closed for some reason and MNRR service rerouted. Penn's full now as it is.
Besides isn't there a 3rd rail compatibility problem for the Hudson and Harlem line trainsets?
Yes, but since the Harlem line can't get to Penn and there's a stretch with no third rail for the Hudson line to get to Penn, that's not really a problem since no MUs would be able to get there anyway. I'm not sure if MNRR's Genesis engines can handle LIRR's third rail and voltage.
There's a voltage and third rail problem for the New Haven line as well.
So what is all this talk about also trying to send some MN trains to Penn, in adition to the LIRR going ot GCT?
They are building tracks, so the LIRR can go Grand Central Station and I believe they are building tracks for MNRR to go Penn Station.
MNRR tracks to Penn are already there, Amtrak uses them.
They are not *building* anything. They're making the plans to build LIRR to GCT. According to the MTA, the only contract that's been put out on ESA within the last 6 months is this one. And I don't even know if anyone bid on it yet!
Yes, they are building those tracks.
They ought to have them finsihed by the year 2010 (at the earliest)
But since they are only working on the LI side of the tunnel, with no contracts whatsoever let for the Manhattan side, I suspect that it will take somewhat longer than that.
But know in advance that they run through Sunnyside Yard, and will be Swithched by Harold Tower, so they would NOT BE RUNNING even if they were there!
Elias
Yup, but it won't be finished for 3 years and then another year to decide how to use it. The project is going better then SAS at the moment and actual construction work is being activly being done as you speak.
Well at least LIRR has numerous subway connections. All NJT has is PATH.
From the Cleanair.Tripod.com website:
"The Budd-built R32 "Brightliner" was built in the early 1960s and rebuilt in the late 1980s, and STILL going strong. Unlike the R32's IRT counterparts, the "Redbirds," these cars will last well into the first half of this decade. These cars are bound to get another rebuild job, with new floors added to the cars that have yet to receive them, new LED route signs, and AC traction motors."
Has anyone heard of another refit for the R-32's? Makes sense to me: the bodies look great, the interiors have held up well and they're reliable. Why not keep 'em?
A lot would have to be done to them. They are great cars, but MTA would need to reconfigure them to accept wheelchairs, upgrade the PA system and soundproofing so announcements can be heard consistently, and add electronic (visual) station announcements to help visually- and hearing-impaired passengers.
Another issue is parts availability for the long haul. Much of the IND fleet consists of cars whose manufacturers no longer exist or have abandoned the business.
In contrast, the IRT's entire fleet, once the last Redbirds go, was built by manufacturers who are still with us. This makes maintenance and overhaul simpler.
I'm sure the B Division wants to accomplish the same thing. Of the current "legacy" cars, only the R-68's manufacturers are still around. The R-143 and R-160 orders will start changing that.
In contrast, SEPTA's fleet manufacturers are all still here to support their products (though I don't know what arrangements SEPTA has with Kawasaki regarding the 20-25 year old Broad Street line cars).
>>>>>>>Another issue is parts availability for the long haul.
The TA has it's own parts shop. If it can't get it from the outside, then they make their own.
That's wonderful, Zman, and important. I've seen the TA's shops first-hand. But even the TA knows that's not a tenable strategy for the long haul. It's expensive to customize parts. That's why, ultimately the R-32's will go. That and the fact that the cars replacing them are ergonomically much better and fully compliant with ADA (visual, auditory, and designed for wheelchairs, which the R-32's are not
They have to make existing cars ADA compliant if they go for overhaul? I assume that wasn't a law when they were overhauled in the 80's, or were they able to somehow get around that?
"They have to make existing cars ADA compliant if they go for overhaul? I assume that wasn't a law when they were overhauled in the 80's, or were they able to somehow get around that? "
You're missing the point. It isn't simply whether "to get around the law" or not. MTA, one hopes (and I think they do), has decided to support the spirit as well as the letter of ADA. The R-32's are getting old, and while their lives can be extended, and will be, in the short term, to avoid rolling stock shortages, in the long term replacing them with all new rolling stock which is manufacturer-supported and services all passengers better is a much better deal.
MTA's mission is to move people, not operate Subfan-favorite subway cars. The new cars are easier to use, easier on the elderly and the disabled, easier for Airport-bound travelers (recall that the A train will be connecting to AirTrain this year and the E,J,Z subways early next year). Zman rightly points to the high quality work done in the shops, but greater uniformity and a newer fleet will make life easier for him and his colleagues.
MTA's mission is to move people, not operate Subfan-favorite subway cars.
I say we boycott until they make our (railfans) happiness their mission!
Hehe, just kidding, of cource.
Does anybody still know how to make R1's and R9's?
:0)
I just made a set ofthem! In S scale that is...but that doesn't move people.Despite what some people think , seriously the R1-9 was one dandy piece of equipment.They were antiques when new but the proven technology got a new system up and running very well.I liked them. Deferred maintenance for a long period caused the problems. By the way I never considered the redbirds a counterpart to the R32. More likely to the R27/30 which are long gone virtually the same except smaller.
Say Ed, did you ever notice what type of door controls the R-27/30s had? Did they have levers or pushbottons?
They had buttons. IIRC all contracts from R26 up had buttons, the R22 would be the last with levers.
Thanks. You're right about the R-26s being the first cars with buttons. Well Kev, you must have had a train or two of R-16s in your conductor days unless you had a mixed consist with IRT cars in the middle.
Probably was R16's ... like I said, when you're with the railroad you don't pay all that much attention to which car class you're handed, whatever it is, it's yours and you're obligated to get it to the other end. Only saw that oddball once though - I usually recycled bottlecaps for a living. :)
Too bad I can't fit into one of your R9s! Oh well, I'll settle for the occasional Tansit Museum visit.
Speaking of the Transit Museum, do you know if R-4 #491 will be the only new addition when the museum opens? I would love to see another Low-V on display.
>>Speaking of the Transit Museum, do you know if R-4 #491 will be the only new addition when the museum opens?<<
I believe #491 belongs to Railway Preservation, not NYCT.
Bill "Newkirk"
Besides, they already have an R-4: 484.
And another on ein the corner of "Arnines were just the teats" ... they were headed off to that great layup in the sky when I joined the TA. But I was able to get plenty of them on me (with the "have fun, kid" of many a fellow local 100 member) ... I *loved* them.
S-gauge, eh? If you ever get a chance to take some pictures of yours, would love to see them. Even if in E-mail. To this day, they're still my favorite subway car.
I will craw under the car and tie my self to it.
I guess what it boils down to is simply this - MTA does not give a rat's ass about subway fans. As soon as they are allocated the money to buy something new, they do. It would more cost-effective to retrofit the older cars to accommodate ADA requirements. I can recall when the R-33's replaced the Low-V's on the IRT, now the R-33's are the cars getting phased out, and what is replacing them is Japanese JUNK! Instead of doing the right thing, and making do with what they have, they always gotta get the latest thing. Just my two cents....
You should not drink so much prior to posting.
-Hank
I'm merely thinking in terms of dollars and cents.
Not really.
Whatever.
Man, That was harsh!
I disagree strongly with all your assertions. MTA affords Subfans the respect and access they deserve. Witness their gracious hospitality at open houses. If you come to them with ideas they do listen - but don't expect every idea to be picked up and implemented.
"It would more cost-effective to retrofit the older cars to accommodate ADA requirements. I can recall when the R-33's replaced the Low-V's on the IRT, now the R-33's are the cars getting phased out, and what is replacing them is Japanese JUNK! "
Instead of simply spewing Archie Bunker style xenophobia, consider MTA's core mission and what kinds of complications - companies going out of business, graffitti, rust, etc. -they've had to deal with.
The Japanese equipment MTA runs works better than most of its other cars, and works much better than cars which have been retired. Bombardier has some catching up to do!
As to ADA retrofits of older cars - well, that's only one part of the big picture, and MTA, for very good reasons, is not pursuing that strategy.
The R32's are going to stay a while. But when their time comes, that's it.
It would be quite difficult to rebuild any of the 1960's era cars to ADA standards. For one thing, the door motors are under the seats, so they can't be removed. The doorways would need widening, something else that is difficult to do. The advances in cooling technology ALONE are worth the money for new cars. You can keep throwing money at the old thing, or you can take that same money and buy new. The R32 was rebuilt at a cost of nearly $500,000 dollars per car. The R142/R143 per-car cost is approximately $1.6 million, including training and parts. This doesn't take into account the diffence in the value of the dollar between 1988 and 2000. The advanced propulsion and HVAC systems account for a significant part of the cost of the new cars. The rebuild of the old cars added between 15 and 25 years to the life of a then nearly 30 year old car. The new cars are expected to have a lifespan of 35-45 years, if not longer. They will never need the kind of major rebuild the older cars have gone through because of the improved maintainance practices developed between then and now. This means the long-term costs of the cars will be substantially lower than the cost to rebuild and continually maintain 40 year old cars.
-Hank
Good analysis, Hank.
The R32 car isn't the only beloved piece of RR equipment people mourn (when it finally goes).
Pennsylvania's GG-1 was a highly respected locomotive which many authors claimed could run forever. Even Amtrak had a few in its livery. But in the final analysis - when its time came, it was retired. It could have been maintained and operated longer. Some even claim it worked better than the locos replacing it. But no railroad wanted to keep running it, because it was an antique, it would not be as efficient as newer equipment; of course,(if you fast forward the videotape to the 1990s) it certainly was not going to run on 25,000 volt electricity.
They had two big problems when they were retired in the 80's (which are also the reasons we will likely never see one restored to operation)
First, the transformers on-board were cooled with PCB-containing oil. PCBs are known carcinogens. These transformers would have to be removed and properly disposed of at a significant cost.
Second, the one-piece cast frames were cracking, and you could only weld them so much. They did last better than 60 years.
-Hank
Try that for the R-142s
'The R32's are going to stay a while. But when their time comes, that's it."
And the end of the railfan window. They will be the last cars on Div B to have them. A few R-62s will be the last to have railfan windows but in real life it was the redbirds.
""Fishbowl2525 ""...........STOP MAKING SENSE !!!
the R-33's replaced the Low-V's on the IRT, now the R-33's are the cars getting phased out, and what is replacing them is Japanese JUNK!
yep !!!!!!!!!
Did the CBTC sysytem on the R-44/46 ever get used?
No, because the R-44 and R-46 cars NEVER, EVER had CBTC. They had ATO (Automatic Train Operation), which is not the same thing. There are numerous posts in the archives that describe both technologies. One can have CBTC without ATO or ATO without CBTC.
David
> the A train will be connecting to AirTrain this year and
> the E,J,Z subways early next year
The A train will be connecting to the E,J,Z subways early next year? How exactly, Ron?
- Lyle Goldman
He means the Airtrain will be doing the connecting.
Screwed that one up, didn't I?
:0)
Bombadier WILL leave the Train market in due time because they have many other bussinesses and trains are a very small portion.
"Bombadier WILL leave the Train market in due time because they have many other bussinesses and trains are a very small portion."
Oh, really? You need to do a little homework before you post. Bombardier has the lion's share of passenger rail business and has a substantial (Europe) freight car business as well. The US Market is served by the same business units which sell around the world.
Contact Bombardier in Quebec and ask to see their annual report - and look at passenger rail as a % of revenue and profit - then come back and post again.
Watchagonnado when they file for bankrupcy or reorginize/purchased/etc.
What makes you think they're headed for bankruptcy? And what makes you think they're not the ones who are going to do the purchasing?
Adtranz was purchased by Bombardier. SEPTA's new trains and Newark AirTrain, both Adtranz products, are rolling.
Like I said - Do your homework first. Then post.
Go to Bombardier's website, and find out how to ask for an annual report. Then read it. I refuse to debate this issue further until you do so.
I don't think the R-32's should go into all this technology, they look great just the way they are, Now I think the R-44's should be going through that process to last pretty long.
Nah. If either car class should get another overhaul it's the R32. The R44 is about to die, dagnabit!
:-) Andrew
I hope the R-44 lives on, and the MTA upgrades the R-44, unless the R-160 replaces them.
I hope the R-44 lives on, and the MTA upgrades the R-44, unless the R-160 replaces them.
I think the R160 will start to replace the 60 foot cars first like the 42's, the 40's, and 38's. The R44 probably won't be replaced until the next order, along with the R32's.
The R-44 was a total mistake to begin with.
Nothing but trouble...they're too long, which was a well-meaning but silly idea to begin with.
It was part of the "747, bigger is better" mentality of the time. One car, bigger than usual would cost less than more cars and only 8 of them instead of 10 for a train. Whoops. :)
Silly idea? How else were they supposed to fit all the the forward-facing seats in?
- Lyle Goldman
They had 60 foot cars with forward facing seats until 1959.
To clarify: They bought trains like that until 1959 (the R-27), trains like that survived until 1989 (the R-10).
R-1:
R-10:
I know that. I also know they had stopped putting the forward-facing seats in the 60-foot cars by the time the R-44's were built (long after 1959). So if the R-44's had been built as 60-foot cars, rather than 75-foot cars, they probably would not have had the forward-facing seats.
- Lyle Goldman
Ah, the memories....
What do you mean?
Even Manhattan el cars from the turn of the century and before had forward facing seats..it's got nothing to do with the length, it has to do with fitting people in the cars. They could have just as easily had longitudinal seating in the R-44.
> They could have just as easily had longitudinal seating in the R-44
Of course they could have, but aren't you glad they didn't?
Sure, they could have put forward-facing seats in a 60-foot car, and I know that. However, they haven't done that since before 1960, and I doubt they would have that time. That is the advantage to the R-44 cars being 75 feet: they had forward-facing seats where otherwise they wouldn't have. Now do you see what I was saying?
- Lyle Goldman
Why wouldn't they have? If they had a change in car design policy that made them move to 75 feet, they could have just as easily had one that DIDN'T and restored transverse seating.
I guess you're right.
- Lyle Goldman
I don't think the R-32's should go into all this technology, they look great just the way they are, Now I think the R-44's should be going through that process to last pretty long.
Well, of any cars from R32 through R46, I supose the 32s would be most deserving of an overhaul. But they're still old cars, and eventually you will get to a point where it's just not worthwhile to keep pouring money into them. So I don't know.
:-) Andrew
The Brightliners are my favorites and I hope they outlast all of the others. As a transit enthusiast, and not a professional, I imagine that their longevity would depend on their physical condition, their reliability (MDBF), and the availability of parts. Zman says the TA makes their own parts, so that leaves the first two items. Their all-stainless, original Budd manufacture will as likely as not outlast the successors. That leaves reliability. If the TA can maintain reliability without excessive cost, then it seems to me that the Brightliners are going to be around for yet a very long time to come.
The R-32s are still getting SMS work. This year 392 of them are supposed to get new floors; some have them already. Any further work on the cars is likely to be done under the SMS program, rather than under a dedicated overhaul program like the old GOH program, which was designed to address long-term decay. The cars, by and large, are in very good condition physically and mechanically.
David
What does SMS stand for? Is it something they could use to to replace the R-32 flipdot signs in the front with LED signs?
Scheduled maintainess service, basicaly you replace parts on a schedule before the malfunction/break.
Scheduled Maintenance SYSTEM...but the explanation is substantially correct. Yes, signage on the R-32s could be replaced under SMS, but as far as I am aware there are no plans to do so.
David
HAH, wake up and smell the money flow. They would give the contract to Bombadier no matter if someone else offers to do it out of their pocket!
Just heard on News Radio 88. Amtrak is staying. No more details yet. Put on the station if you're interested.
Gee, what a surprise....
Not to denigrate WCBS radio, but word is the meeting is STILL in progress, no deals made and an Amtrak spokesfish in Rensselaer just said on camera that there has been NO PROGRESS so far although some politicians are saying that it won't happen.
But so far, the official word is that there's NO word at all - meetings still ongoing and no press conferences scheduled.
A part of me wants all of Amtrak to shut down tight, with all the commuter disruption this entails, for at least a week or so. It'll be the Republican officeholders who'll get the obscene phone calls from their campaign contributors.
The big city real estate interests will be particularly incensed. The railroads are essential if the value of their buildings is to be kept up.
Should the Republicans be dumb enough to keep the shutdown going for several weeks, then there'd likely be a putch in the House, with Hastert, DeLay et al. all being demoted.
The campaign contributers don't use mass transit. If they have enough money for contributions they go down the LIE in a LIMO.
Lets look at what full story here. Back in 1999 the MBTA awarded a contract to operate its commuter rail to a private contractor the private contractor bid significantly lower the Amtrak. The private contractor planed on cutting massive amounts of waste from they system. When the unions found out about this they got the local pols to strong-arm the MBTA in awarding the contract to Amtrak. The private contractor has since filed suit against the MBTA because of this. David Gunn then stole the money the MBTA gave him to operate the commuter rail and spent it on the hicksvile limited. Amtrak should make a profit running MBTA commuter rail if they don’t it only due to incompetence. So who is really at fault here the unions and the corrupt pols they own. If any one in this state had gut David gun would be sharing a prison cell with cardinal law.
Don’t blame republicans if MBTA commuter rail shuts down.
Amtrak deserves some criticism for its MBTA contract performance, but you're way off on Gunn. And yes, unions did have a lot to do with it, but the private operator could just as easily have bid too low on purpose (to win the contract), then held MBTA hostage until the contract was augmented. And workers would get the shaft anyway.
It's a lot more complicated than you make it out to be. The Republicans are every bit as dirty as the Democrats up there.
The Republicans are every bit as dirty as the Democrats up there.
Isn't that true everywhere?
AEM7
Yes indeed.
> The Republicans are every bit as dirty as the Democrats
At least!
- Lyle Goldman
Do you have a clue?
Republican or Democrat, your story is not credible.
Well, meeting's come and gone, NO DEAL as yet ... Toricelli of NJ says he looked into Bush's eyes and found he could trust him but the deal ain't done unless Dennis Hastert (Crook, Chicago, Republican leader of congress) coughs up the cash ...
The shutdown is *STILL* on for 48 hours from now as nothing has been settled ... UTU site just updated, but this news is also old (AP wire). Crews are being told to prepare for a shutdown as of tonight.
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=2178
This is getting to be a very tiresome game of chicken and the ball is entirely in the elephant's court ...
...Dennis Hastert (Crook, Chicago, Republican leader of congress)...
One minor nitpick: That should read "Crook, Chicago SUBURBS, Republican leader of congress".
Chicago and the Chicago suburbs are like night and day politically, and get along about as well as matches and gasoline.
-- David
Chicago, IL
A local cab ride for a "gang of yoots" from the south side. :)
If *I* was Gunn (which thankfully for the midwest I'm not), I'd have Union Station imploded right about now and trains to Milwaukee would be going off lower Wacker right now into the Chicago River. Heh. But yeah, your "suburban boy" is the entire problem right now. Time to stuff him in a gym locker.
>>The shutdown is *STILL* on for 48 hours from now as nothing has been settled ... UTU site just updated, but this news is also old (AP wire). Crews are being told to prepare for a shutdown as of tonight.<<
Remember. 48 hours could be the difference between an averted transit shutdown or a nation wide rail crisis. So let's not give out hope yet. And since there are only 48 hours left let's try to see the possible outcomes.
1. Amtrak decides to shut down, then they file for a chapter 11. Everything goes up for auction.
2. Amtrak doesn't shut down, given it's bailout money, then spends it unwisely and we're back to where we started.
3. Amtrak doesn't shut down, given bailout money, spends wisely and maintains it's integrity.
4. Amtrak decides to shut down, then they file for a chapter 11, The gov't has a just in case plan and everything goes well
5. Amtrak decides to shut down but is forced to keep other rail services going, crisis averted
6. Amtrak doesn't shut down, given bailout money and later forced to split up
So from now until Wedensday anything is possible
3 scenarios?????
Chapter 11 bankruptcy is a petition to the court to continue operating and find a way out of bankruptcy while remaining intact.
It's chapter 7 where you just throw in the towel and put everything up for auction.
Also, the chapter numbers may be different for government owned corporations.
?This is getting to be a very tiresome game of chicken and the ball is entirely in the elephant's court ..."
Maybe the Elephant will Sit on the Chicken!
Elias
Nah, the elephant's quite content to CHOKE it. :)
Lets look at what full story here. Back in 1999 the MBTA awarded a contract to operate its commuter rail to a private contractor the private contractor bid significantly lower the Amtrak. The private contractor planed on cutting massive amounts of waste from they system. When the unions found out about this they got the local pols to strong-arm the MBTA in awarding the contract to Amtrak. The private contractor has since filed suit against the MBTA because of this. David Gunn then stole the money the MBTA gave him to operate the commuter rail and spent it on the hicksvile limited. Amtrak should make a profit running MBTA commuter rail if they don’t it only due to incompetence. So who is really at fault here the unions and the corrupt pols they own. If any one in this state had gut David gun would be sharing a prison cell with cardinal law.
What the hell is that middle track used for on the West End Line at Bay Parkway and the other stations that have the middle track?? Is it used for emergency's?? Or is it used for the M Line? Any info is appreciated. Thanks
Within the station, it's used to terminate M trains. Other than that, it's used for diversions (both planned and unplanned). The middle track of the West End Line has never seen regular, scheduled service.
David
Thanks for the info.
South of Bay Parkway, you can see M put-ins from CI cued up and ready to go in the afternoons.
I think the middle track is probably a good way to get work extras from 38th St Yard to the Brighton and Culver lines.
Unless something's changed recently, the middle track isn't used in the station to terminate M trains, because there's no way to get to the middle track north of the station. Instead, M trains terminate on the southbound local track and relay in the middle south of the station, reentering service on the northbound local track.
(Correct me if I'm wrong.)
I should have been more specific. Mr. Greenberger is correct.
David
My father? When did he post here?
LOL. Geeesh, we're getting formal here. I guess it has to be because you put the "J" middle initial in. The J makes it very formal......lol.
I guess I need a middle name then, people would read my post in the Murray Hill thread.
So therefore I commence the FIND A MIDDLE INITIAL FOR OUR RESIDENT SWINE CONTEST!
It needs to match a good name and has to be in English.
27th place wins a prize!
No duplicate entries, once a letter is nominated, it's over.
HEY! You're not the only swine on this board!
I use the J just because I like the way my name looks with the middle initial. I don't introduce myself in person with it. But I insist that Mr. Greenberger is my father. (If he weren't, I'd have a different name.)
But I insist that Mr. Greenberger is my father.
lol...I believe you, I believe you.
It's used to "relay" trains, not "termintate"
Isn't that exactly what I said, modulo your typo? Or did I get my terminology wrong? It terminates on the local track and relays on the middle track. (Or it did until recently, according to another post.)
As said in another post, the M lets off all passengers at Bay Parkway, run light to 25av via the local tracks then a switchman will take it to the Coney Island Yard Lead track where it will reverse. This is because of track work on the middle track.
Same thing occurs on the G on weekends. Ir runs light to Church Av via exp tracks then a switchman will bring it down to the relay and up the other side. This is not because of track work but because there is a crew room at Church
Why do they only need to use the Church Avenue crew room on Saturdays? What do the crews do on the other six days of the week? I would think that the collective bargaining agreement is pretty clear on when crew quarters are required.
I did see some track workers on the Manhattan-bound express track at Fourth Avenue last Saturday.
I don't really know why the G runs light to Church but I'm assuming they are working on the third rail on the 4av exp track since they did the same at Smith9St about 2 months ago, working on the third rail.
Hadn't heard that. I guess the new Bay Parkway "control hut" is getting cut in.
They could charge railfans admission to the old tower.
I know. I'm referring to the regular service pattern. Sorry for not making that clear.
As for the G, I'm still trying to figure out why Saturday is different from any other day of the week -- and if the G does consistently go to Church at any particular time of the week, why not take passengers?
Relay ... Terminate. May this seasoned railfan interject a quickie elucidation.
Seems to me, the respondent's are youngsters. The middle track on the West End was used in a movie to "terminate" the train. The "French Connection", the interior shots were on the
West End. If I'm wrong, please post. OK, so it twas'nt regular service.
;-) Sparky
Recently the center track hasn't been used for relays. They're doing some work on them and are blocked off. And if you look hard enough, there's a sign on the 3rd rail cover that says "Caution-Test Track Area-Plastic Ties Installed" And the plastic ties are painted yellow. So, the M runs light to 25 Avenue and then crosses into the yard lead for Coney Island and reverses there with the help of a switchman.
BTW, during the early 1960s I remember mid-day ABs would be laid up on the middle track of the West End from Bay 50 St. north. What a beautiful sight, endless string of ABs. In addition, seeing those D-types laid up on the weekends on the Brighton line from Ocean Parkway north was also a beautiful sight too.
Hot Lunch!
Welcome to SubTalk Hot Lunch!
Thanks Acela, BTW, have been on subtalk for last few years, however since 9-11 been awful tough to find the time, but still, this is one of my enjoyments I've kept still early boyhood.
Hot Lunch!
Oh ok, I just never saw you before on this board.
Acela,
All the same, I thank you for the welcome, and hope to contribute on a more frequent basis.
Hot Lunch!
Ok
Those middle track layups were pretty much killed by graffiti as the TA found or created secure places to store trains during layup hours,
Jamaica still stores some trains on unused express tracks on weekends, not only in the Jamaica vicinity (on the Queens Boulevard express tracks) but way down in Brooklyn (on the 4th Avenue express tracks). But, of course, those express tracks are underground.
That practice is going to change soon, I suppose. On 9/8, the night/weekend N will be terminating at Pacific, so I assume it will run express on 4th Avenue at all times (now it's express only on weekdays, so the express tracks are clear south of 36th).
At the height of graffiti, even underground didn't help.
Even the tunnels themselves aren't immune. Have you seen the crash wall between the express tracks on the BMT Broadway line? Now that Q and W trains are running express in Manhattan, the so-called artwork is plainly visible.
Underground is even better, less visible.
Hell No!!
That is not why the middle track is out of service nor is it the reason why the M is relaying at Bay 50th. Bay Parkway tower (Along with 62nd St) are now closed with control being transfered to Stillwell Master and Murphy tower. Bay 50th tower, 8th Ave tower and 5th Ave cut tower are also being closed. The days of on site interlocking towers are numbered.
-Mark
Isn't each interlocking still controlled by some tower, somewhere? So why can't the M relay as it used to?
Yes....But it is now in the process of being cut over to Stillwell Tower. It will take a couple of weeks before those switches are operational again.
-Mark
The switches are out of service at this time. Currently the M track signals can be controlled by Stillwell and Murphy, but the two local tracks are still controlled by Bay Parkway and 62 St. Rather than deal with the agony of co-ordinating moves, service will remain like this until sometime in early July, when the switchover is complete.
Makes sense. (I thought Mark was suggesting that this was a permanent change.) Is one extra train enough to cover the extended relay? (IINM, one extra train does the trick when the weekend M relays at Marcy due to the recurring J express GO. Fortunately, these two GO's are mutually exclusive.)
Wow. We just REALLY REALLY have to hope there isn't another Bregen Street incident or we're looking at some major service "disruptions".
Can anyone help me out, I need to know a detailed route for the PATH train.
I will be visiting NJ soon and plan on making the trip to NYC.
For weekend service the path website says that the pat trains run
Newark to 33rd st via hoboken. Can I just get on any train from the Path platform in teh Newark Penn Station and stay on it untill 33rd st? does it go to hoboken first and then to the city?
Can anyone help?
Thanks,
N-Train
On weekends Newark Trains terminate at Hoboken. For service to Manhattan change at Journal Square for the train to Manhattan. Overnight trains from Newark (7 days) run to Hoboken and then to 33rd.
Are the trains labeled well, I can read NYC subway trains just fine, but I have only ridden the path once in my lifetime and that was pre Sept. 11th.
Yes, PATH trains are labeled well and helpful announcements are made about transferring, if necessary.
Read the sign over the doors on the cars. It tells you where it is heading.
PATH also uses colored marker lights--
RED..... Newark to 33rd (Was Newark to WTC)
GREEN... Not used at this time. (Was WTC to Hoboken)
YELLOW.. Journal Square to 33
BLUE.... Hoboken to 33
overnight "around the world" service uses red /blue (red is the left light as looking at the fron of the oncoming train.)
Over the door destinations are
HOB.. Hoboken
NWK.. Newak
WTC.. World Trade Center (Rest in peace!)
JSQ.. Journal Square
33... 33rd STreet
Green is now used for JSQ-HOB and NWK-HOB trains.
Heh, I love 33st bound 'round the world' trains leaving 23st. The entire destination board is lit up except WTC!
> helpful announcements are made about transferring
Yeah, if you can hear them! (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
You actually can hear the announcements on PATH. I like the style of their short announcements.
>> Are the trains labeled well? <<
Some are; some aren't. They normally have three small lighted destination signs, but sometimes the lights don't seem to be working. You might need to ask the conductor the destination.
My experience has been (looking at the signs from the Amtrak trains, I've only ridden PATH twice) that some signs are brighter than others. The really dim ones (which haven't been converted to be red, I assume those are LEDs of some sort) are actually illuminated but you can't see it.
On weekends Newark Trains terminate at Hoboken. For service to Manhattan change at Journal Square for the train to Manhattan. Overnight trains from Newark (7 days) run to Hoboken and then to 33rd.
Last time I checked the "NWK to 33rd via Hoboken" is in effect on weekends also.
Also why does PATH have a time segment that it does the service it explains (i.e. 8:00a-7:30p) Aren't some routes in effect for the whole day?
during overnight hours (which vary between weekday and weekend) the route is the "round the world" Mewark to 33 via Hoboken. Train runs to Hoboken. Crew dumps the train, changes end and proceeds to 33rd.
Coming from 33rd train runs to Hoboken. dumps the train, chanegs end and proceeds to Newark.
Before the WTC disaster, Newark to WTC ran all night as did yellow/blue Journal S quare 33 rd via Hoboken.
Weekends, NWK to 33rd via HOB is in effect for longer than on weekdays (until 9:30 AM and after 7:30 PM), but not during the normal part of the day.
And, some (all?) cars apparently don't have 'Newark via HOB' on the rollsigns because the one train I rode where I could see the front had 'Jrnl SQ via HOB' on the front.
Weekends, NWK to 33rd via HOB is in effect for longer than on weekdays (until 9:30 AM and after 7:30 PM), but not during the normal part of the day.
During the normal part of the day, PATH still does NWK via HOB to 33rd because from 4:30p to 5:20p, all the trains that were departing NWK had "HOB" lit up as their destination sign. I was going to ask this on SubTalk, but then I walked over to look at the big, schedules panel right at the main entrances at Newark Penn for PATH, and saw "Weekend. Newark to 33rd St. via Hoboken."
Some novice conductors have on ALL FOUR LIGHTS as to indicate the terminuses of the train which is not needed.
I've never seen a front rollsign on PATH that had a Jrnl Sq. via HOB. Only 33rd St., NEWARK, and HOBOKEN. Who controls them?
The conductor controls the rollsign on PA-4s, while it's easier for the T/O on the others. I remember arriving at WTC usually the Conductor would run to the front of the train, lift up a panel and use the key on the motorized rollsign.
As for rollsign designations, there's also a 33st via HOB, and I think there's a WTC via HOB as well.
And weekends all service from NWK is to Hoboken, that's why the signs said Hoboken. Any passengers going to New York from Newark either had better take NJT, or transfer at JSQ or HOB for 33st service.
Current common practice on PATH is to light up all destinations the train will serve, since back in September people on the 33st line might get confused by seeing NWK lit up they threw on JSQ. And the practice stuck.
So leaving 33st it will say NWK | JSQ | HOB. Once arriving at HOB, they tick off that light. Once arriving at JSQ, they tick off that one (unless they forget). HOB | 33rd is the norm for leaving NWK for the 'round robin' service. At 23st, since some riders will board trains northbound with the intention of going southbound there, it is common for T/Os to light up the reverse destinations before departing. That is when you will see all four lit, since the 33st bound train will be returning to HOB, JSQ, and NWK.
Current common practice on PATH is to light up all destinations the train will serve, since back in September people on the 33st line might get confused by seeing NWK lit up they threw on JSQ. And the practice stuck.
Actually at NWK, 4 out of the 5 PATH trains I saw depart that afternoon had only HOB lit up. Then the conductor will light 33rd at HOB since those are the only "terminuses" of the train, whereas JSQ wouldn't be a terminus.
But if you were going midday on a weekend, the train was only running to Hoboken.
Check this "Page"
Yes, I did see the map, but it doesn't answer my question.
Yes it does. If you saw the map you'd see that there is only one service out of Newark.
There is only one track for PATH at Newark for trains headed EAST (toward Manhattan). You can access PATH from the railroad platform for track 2. There you will find the turnstiles for PATH.
as you say you are going on the weekend so you have to change at Journal Square for the 33rd St train (across the platform at JSQ).
On Weekends PATH trains from Newark go to Hoboken only.
The "round-robin" service is late nights where the Newark train goes to Hoboken first then goes to 33rd St.
Look at the destination signs above the train doors and lsiten for the announcements, you should have no trouble at all.
You can also change at Hoboken for the 33st train, if you find the one at JSQ is too crowded (meaning railfan window taken). Of course at Hoboken the front is the back and back is the front.
Newark Penn is interesting-- The second PATH track, usually used for Westbound Trains is above track 2's platform and has ramps and stairs to track 2 (stairs), Track 5 (Ramp and stairs) and tracks 3-4 (Ramp). Late nights after NJT stops running PATH uses the upper level only switching just West of Journal Square. Sometimes due to track work PATH will use either track for single track operations.
The last weekend in May NJT was out and I had to organize a taxi pool to Newark and what an adventure! PATH used platform H with entry near McDOnalds.
Just to put things in perspective there have been two long haul bus accidents in the past 2 days with a total of 9 dead. To put rail travel in perspective the only Amtrak deaths w/in the last 3 (or more) years were the 4 killed on the Auto Train last month.
i try explaining this concept to people everytime there's a train crash. Trains may crash more often, but they kill a LOT LESS than any other form of transportation. Cars, planes, buses, and probably ships as well.
Except when the train bridges collapse. Going back more than three years ago, I remember two devastating bridge collapses in the early or mid 90s. -Nick
I went on a mega railfan trip with R68A 5200 today. We started off from 36st in Brooklyn, and walked to the SBK yard. We thought the gates would be unlocked since a fellow SubTalker said previously that there were workers in there when he saw. Oh well, gates were locked up and no one was in sight. I took some pictures through the fence and then we walked over to 1st avenue where we caught up with a about to be deadhead B35. The driver let us on for free and we told him we wanted to go to 65th and 2nd, and he gave us transfers for the B37 to take to 65st. So we took the B37 to 59st for some reason which is beyond me, and we walked along 2nd avenue to 65st where we quickly found out that the fricken tracks were way below grade level and there was no way to access them other than to enter through the terminal which was out of the question. Oh well, it was cool seeing the car float in the distance. We then made a left after the ROW bridge and stopped at a deli for snacks and drinks. Then we walked over to the Bay Ridge Ave station on the R and took that to Pacific for hope in a R142 5. Well I heard the HVAC fans so we dashed through the corridor, ran down and up the stairs, we just missed a Flatbush bound R142 5. So we went back down and caught a 2. We anticipated to take that to Franklin and then just wait for the 5 there (we didn't want to take the chance that it would pull out of Flatbush as we came in). But, there was some sort Fire/Smoke condition at Franklin avenue. When the 2 came up to the 10 car marker, we looked out the window and saw one 4 train in each of the two express tracks. Firefighters and police were on the platform, firefighters were in the front car of the 4 train on the southbound platform and so were MTA workers. Something must have gone wrong on the train! So we took the 2 to President and waited, and waited, and waited some more for the Manhattan bound R142 5...no luck, we got impatient and finally got one going flatbush ave bound. We were willing to take it either way at that rate. So we took it to Flatbush, and back up. At franklin we saw some more investigating in the cab of the front car of the southbound 4 still, the 4 on the uptown express track was cleared and we went express as per the route. We took the R142 5 to Brooklyn Bridge. We got off and talked for a bit on whether to just get on a downtown 6 and get looks about going on the loop from people on the platform or do something else. But before we came to a decision, a redbird 4 with the cab door open pulls in and we hop on that. It was pretty crowded on there. So we're going uptown on this redbird 4 and I wanted to take a picture of the cab, and when I pull out my camera and turn it on, the motorman, who must have seen a reflection of the camera in his window said in a very nasty voice "Put that thing away". So I complied and we got off at 14st Union Square and crossed over to a 6 R142A which we took to GCT. We then proceeded to take a 7 from GCT to times square. We walked down the stairs and went towards the back and boarded a R62A 7. It was crowded as well, but what do you expect, it was around 5 now...Anyways, we eventually got held at 5th Avenue for around 15 fricken minutes by the newly installed holding lights. I'm thankful they were installed because if they weren't we'd be held in the tunnel most likely and that would be no fun at all! So as we're in 5th avenue, after like 14 minutes of waiting to proceed, a Queens bound 7 finally arrives at 5th avenue and we're set to go. Bout time, eh? So we go into Times Square and we're switched over to the Queens bound track to terminate. THERE WAS NO TRAIN ON THE MANHATTAN BOUND TRACK!!!@!!!! So me and R68A 5200 split and we went in our respective directions. Alright, so my questions to you are, A) What ever happened to the 4 at Franklin, and why was the Manhattan bound track at TS not used for terminating 7's, and why did it take 15 minutes for the train that was on the Queens bound track to finally leave? All in all, it was a good adventure/trip!
There was smoke condition involving that R62 at Franklin. While there is no specific details, I know there were two trains that were stuck behind it in the tunnel btwn Franklin and Atlantic. One of those trains was a R142#5(maybe the one u guys missed), which was right behind it. Trains were brought up close to each other so that the passengers walk through and exit at the Franklin Ave platform. One S/B train had to wrong rail back into Atlantic and discharged its passengers. IDK if that R62 involved in the fire sustained any damage.
We just missed that R142 on the #5 and we saw it up in the station at the first door. And we saw the R62 on the #4 that wrong railed back. Too bad we missed the R142. It would've rocked!
from NJT's site:
Jun 24, 2002 08:13:32 PM
Hudson Bergen Light Rail service is suspended due to a fire from Newport Station to Jersey Avenue Station. Buses will be provided in place of the light rail.
The fire was in one of the new residential towers under construction along Essex Street right next to the Essex St. station. It's one of the two buildings in Jersey City that suffered a crane collapse during the winter, as well.
A letter from Gunn:The following was conveyed to Amtrak employees nationwide in a special advisory from Amtrak President and CEO David L. Gunn on June 24, 2002.
Dear Co-workers,
Since I wrote to you on Friday morning, there have been some developments on our current situation.
I spoke to Transportation Secretary Mineta over the weekend. He asked our Board of Directors and me to come over to the Department of Transportation this afternoon to work with him so that we could all avoid a shutdown. I welcome his active involvement and hope you will too.
His comment this weekend that he does not want a shutdown was an encouraging sign that the Administration really wants to avert this from happening. We are looking forward to the meeting, which will be at 3:00 p.m. today.
Finally, I want to dispel any notion that I caused in public comments last week that I can just shut down our operations and happily return to Cape Breton. You can depend on me to do everything possible to keep our operations going - that's my commitment to you. I did not take this job to shut down our railroad. I will provide you with an update tomorrow.
Sincerely,
David L. Gunn
***end of paste. Now my comment-- I'll post his follow-up tomorrow.
A train apparently lost its brakes and went out of control...
Story at http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/sns-ap-tanzania-train-crash0624jun24.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dtop%2Dutility
My condolonces to the people out there, saddening :( We were just talking about this a few days ago (What would you do in these subway situations) about if a train lost its brakes, damn, scary stuff.
Seriously, it's very sad. Especially that they didn't have the right rescue equipment.
MY generation somehow learned 'the globe.' 'High Schrool' students don't even know the map location of Washington, D of C. Tazmania is in Australia, not on the Cartoon Network. Hard to believe this 'first world nation' had such a calamity but then I still cannot forgive myself of my intitial thoughts before I drove back to NYC on September 11th. CI Peter
"Tazmania is in Australia, not on the Cartoon Network. Hard to believe this 'first world nation' had such a calamity"
Umm, while Tasmania is a part of Australia, the rail accident occurred in **Tanzania** which is an east African country and one of the third-world nations.
"MY generation somehow learned 'the globe.'"
Given the above, are you sure about that? :^)
Somehow I erred and read Tazmania instead of Tanzania. Tazmania, inside Australia, has up to date rail. Tanzania, an East African nation, still sports oil fired steamers and blitzed diesel MUs running shoddy rails often washed out in the once-a-year rain downpours. CI Peter
Well, if he is an oldster like me, he remembers a time when there was no Tanzania, but rather Tasmainia and Zanzabar.
So if he's an old globe....
Elias
If he is a youngster like me, he would know that the African country was called Tanganyika and not Tasmainia. The Union of Tanganyika and Zanzibar was renamed the Union of TanZania in 1964 or thereabouts.
Tanzania, Tasmania, Tanzanique, Rhodesia, Zimbabwae, East Pakistan, so I reread an error. Whassup...be a man among men and volunteer for Rho SAS....oops...two decades late...and so are all the rail systems. Save your rubber bands...they may be all you have when the third world hits our shores after the Tokamak goes Kablooey and the only thing moving a Redbird is a physical labor crew of impressed T/Os.
The problem is you then go on and start stereotyping a group of people about their lack of geographic knowledge. If you want to pretend your smarter than someone in a particular field (or if it's true), at least know your facts.
Also, I don't know what this Tokamak business is about, but if it's nuclear, BRAVO.
MORE NUCLEAR POWER! LESS TERRORIST OIL!
Yes, American Pig, the Tokamak is a design for a fusion reactor, and I say bravo to fusion, too. Here's why: the risk that a Tokamak reactor would go kablooey is almost nonexistent. In case the containment fields in a fusion reactor shut down, the heat would disperse, and the temperature would drop below the levels necessary for fusion. Unlike a fission reactor, where the lack of control can lead to a runaway chain reaction, loss of control in a fusion reactor just shuts the thing down. So sorry, no kablooey in a Tokamak.
Mark
Wrong about kablooey!!! If the containment field fails and the fuel source is disconnected, nothing happens unless somehow additional fuel is forced in and reacted. What has already happened in Japan is a major reprocessing accident involving spent nuclear fuel rods and recovered plutonium when processing vessels were not monitored properly and exploded. No loss...plenty of sources for transistor radios and Toyotas. CI Peter
Correct! I am knew that but wrote othewise. Besides, I cant spell Tanganeekia! : )
Elias
What does this have to do with the thread? Or are you trying to trot out your tired, age-old "One generation thinks the next is worse" crap?
Sorry, but every generation is reviled by its predecessors, but it also trumps its predecessors, otherwise the world would go NOWHERE.
It is a sorry state of affairs in fact that most high school graduates are barely literate and have no concept of where in the world anything is taking place in the news. My error was in mixing up Tasmania with Tanzania...not in global position. While you may be literate in geography, just notice how the news media must place hints and maps in the forefront. I never paid much attention to the geography BS in school years ago but what was taught to me I learned without memorisation. The 'middle east' isn't 'halfway to China.'
It is a sorry state of affairs in fact that most high school graduates are barely literate
That sounds dubious, you'll have to back it up.
...and have no concept of where in the world anything is taking place in the news.
News is going to happen around the world. This doesn't seem to me to be an important world story. Nevertheless, you can't expect anybody to know every country of the world and Tanzania is relatively unimportant.
My error was in mixing up Tasmania with Tanzania...not in global position.
My beef was not your error, but your stereotyping of the younger generation. Every generation hates its successors, hence all of the youth scapegoating going on.
It is a sorry state of affairs in fact that most high school graduates are barely literate
That sounds dubious, you'll have to back it up.
While his statement may be a bit of an exaggeration, what isn't is that fully one-third of freshmen enrolling at private or public four year colleges need to take a basic course in writing skills because they are unprepared to write gramatically correct, properly constructed papers in college. And then you have those who DON'T go on to college, or who enroll in a two year school; on average, their skills are even worse. So I don't think it's much of an exaggeration.
Every generation hates its successors, hence all of the youth scapegoating going on.
I'll disagree with that statement. I don't believe that those of my generation hate those who follow us. Rather, we are concerned with the future that those who follow us will face. Many in my own generation have made decisions that we now, with 20-20 hindsight, are beginning to realize were not the right ones for the future of our society. Most notable is the decision that many of my peers made to entrust the raising of their children almost completely to people outside the family - in other words, relying on day care rather than one parent staying home to raise their children. We ourselves didn't - my wife remained at home during the years our children were growing up, and continues to do so - but I have seen the consequences of too many children growing up without a stable home environment, children raised in day care or by themselves as latchkey kids, and I think that it is a major contributing factor to the higher rate of problems among our youth today.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I didn't make the mispelling of 'Tanzania' Tasmania. I know the Yukon is nice and cold while Queensland is miserable and hot like Redbird undercar. I can read Sundays Lectionary lessons cold without stumbling. Give me almost any location in the world and a map and I'll give you the short and long haul paths for high frequency communications. The 'great brains' of public education dropped modern Western Civ, Social Science and Geography for mandated cirriculums like 'Civil Rights' and 'Holocaust Science.' Who we are, where we came from, how we got here and why things are mean crap in the school system. I rest my case...it's full of Redbird brake dust.
The inability to write a good collegiate essay is not the same as being "barely literate"
"and I think that it is a major contributing factor to the higher rate of problems among our youth today."
Apparently it isn't, because the higher rate of problems among youth today is a myth.
In fact, youth today are more normal than their parents were back when they were children and today.
This site has all the statistics and a few articles too.
Saw pictures of the wreck on NY1 in a restaurant after getting off of work yesterday. It is not pretty (looked like a mix of the Great Western crash outside Paddington in 2000 with that of Union Square of 1991).
Any information would be helpful.
Probably, yes. If you want a more detailed explanation, read the other threads on the Amtrak shutdown.
I apologize, I could've elaborated more on WHAT will be affected.
LIRR won't be able to use Penn Station at all, and will have to go to Brooklyn.
If AMTK closes down All of Penn Station will be Closed, niehter LIRR nor NJT will get in there. Harold Tower will go dark, and so LIRR trains will not even be able to approach Hunters Point Avenue, and likely enlugh would not be able to get to LIC via the Montauk branch, though I'm not sure about that.
NJT has a much bigger problem since many of its routes are on AMTK tracks all of the way.
LIRR can let people off at Jamacia, Woodside, or Brooklyn, NJT's only crossing is PATH, and the line to WTC is gone.
It will be interesting if the shutdown happens, though David Gunn promised an "orderly" Shutdown, it is unclear what might be done by the local operating authorities to keep things going.
Elias
Check out this pic of a Amtrak California Bi-Level Car in the 30 st. Station:
I guess they can fit under the catenary on some parts of the NEC..
Maybe they can't and this was around when they found out!
I think the number on that front car is 38066, which makes it a Superliner II diner, not a california car. I too have seen this photo on the Amtrak Photo Archive, and have often wondered how the Superliners managed to squeeze under the catenary around the Race St. yard. To the north Zoo interlocking has a bunch of mini tunnels/ bridges that lower the catenary, and to the south Arsenal and 30th Street station similarly reduce the height of the catenary, these constrictions would seem to keep such tall equipment out of the yard, and indeed, just having them there would seem to pose a grounding risk, since there can't be much clearance under the catenary.
I didn't get this photo from Amtrak Photo Archive.
All apologies to Mr Pirmann and Mr. DeCesare, Forgot to check where the image actually was before saying I had seen it there, again sorry for giving Mr. Hebner at the amtrak photo archive the credit for the pic.
If the max height of the car is lower than the pantograph lockdown height, there's no issues involved. And the PRR's lockdown was up around 15 - 16 feet. Mike knows the exact number.
i see those cars all the time at the union station .......
looks like the same type of cars the ""southwest chief""
uses !!! ............yep !!
Aren't Superliners only usable at low platform stations? I mean, other than Cornwells Hts. there's no Amtrak station around Philly that can work with a Superliner!
Correct. No High Platforms.
Someone gave me some superliners for my model railroad, but same problem, they can't deal with my high level platforms.
Nobody said that those in the pic were in service.
Most of the NEC could handle superliners, just as they can handle Double Stacks...
But they cannot go into Penn Station where the tunnels and cats *are* lower.
Elias
Speaking of Modeling, What kind of Trains do you model on your layout? I model the Acela.
surprise, surprise
Here's the story of my Model Railroad.
Eregion Railroad
It is a comuter line, the schedule shows 106 trains a day, They all operate, though some disaper into a staging area and return again as a different train, even though the timetable says the previous one is still running in the other direction.
Most are push-pull.
I really must update the site, but I also have to do more work on the railroad, rather than ditzing here with these computers.
Oh Well, I *am* suposed to make the computers go.
Elias
Interesting. I've always wished the Superliners could operate on the East Coast, as they're about a million times more comfortable than the Amfleet coaches.
On my Amtrak trip to Washington, DC and Raliegh, North Carolina last Christmas, the 15-hour segment between Chicago and DC seemed to pass much faster than the five hours between DC and Raleigh, which felt almost like a trip on Greyhound.
-- David
Chicago, IL
There was a post a little while back about Murray Hill Station in Queens. Now we have a Murray Hill in Manhattan. In fact we even have a Murray Hill Tunnel which is still in use.
Was there another Murray who lived in Queens and founded his own hill?
Or was Murray one of those early day adventurers who sailed over with Columbus on the Mayflower and made it his business to climb all the hills in New York City (or New Amsterdam or New Orange)and named them after himself.
Seriously though does anyone have information on the Murray that the station in Queens is named after.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Respect Murray and his hills
I've often wondered that myself. I used to wonder too aboout the LIRR station called "Broadway", which is absolutely nowhere near anything remotely called Broadway, until I found out that Northern Blvd. in that area used to be called Broadway.
Anyhooo, I think the Murray Hill LIRR sta. is near Murray Street. Doesn't explain much, though. The "real" Murray Hill is in Manhattan.
Of course, there is also a hamlet of Inwood in Nassau County not a great distance away from the neighborhood by the same name in Upper Manhattan.
:-) Andrew
The Broadway section of Flushing is still called that today. It was called Broadway because back the day, circa 1930, people that were involved in the Broadway scene, actually lived in the stately homes that make up the area known as Broadway. Today, that area is mostly occupied by the professional classes.
The Murray Hill section of Flushing was named after a guy named Murray.
Broadway has nothing to do with Manhattan's Broadway. Before the Queensborough Bridge, Northern Boulevard in Long Island City and Newtown (west of the Flushing Creek) was called Jackson Avenue, and it went to the future Jackson Heights (then Trains Meadow) and in Flushing it was called Broadway. There still is a Broadway that breaks off Northern Blvd in Great Neck. East of there, the road was known as Flushing Turnpike before becoming the North Hempstead Turnpike (as it still does).
The lazy LIRR never bothered renaming the station Northern Boulevard. Some real estate developer probably didn't know the real story and came up with yours to name the neighborhood Broadway.
I don't know about the Queens Murray Hill, but Manhattan Murray Hill was originally some other name (somethingburg) and was the site of the estate of Robert Murray.
http://www.queenschamber.org/Queens/Neighborhood%20Pages/murrayhill.html
I don't know anything about this Queens Murray family though, but this map shows some Murray properties east of Flushing village.
When telephone exchanges still had names instead of just numbers, there used to be a Murray Hill telephone exchange in Manhattan.
<< there used to be a Murray Hill telephone exchange in Manhattan. >>
Sure was! I remember the ads: "Call MUrray Hill 7 - 0700. That's MU7-0700. Call now!" Wish I remembered the product/service it was for.
Macy's ... Gimbels was Murray Hill 7-7500 ...
What's amusing though is that the telephone company "Murray Hill" exchange was nationwide and their ORIGINAL Murray Hill is STILL an AT&T facility ... New Jersey ...
Now the real story is that there was this guy named Murray who invented the term "over the hill" ... now he's under it. Barum-pum.
OK, that's worth a rim shot.
I also remember those commercials with the MU7 phone exchange.
The Hudson River Dayliner's number was BRyant 9-5151.
What's amusing is that in New York, the "Murray Hill" exchange did NOT serve "Murray Hill" ... it served the southern Manhattan business district (23 to 42 St, West of Fifth Avenue) ... the NAME exchanges were contrivances used nationwide (such as CYpress, TUlip in the Bronx) to match numerical sequences of exchanges based on the first two digits we recognize today ... after the war, they weren't enough and by the 1960's, "all digit dialing" was required. Look at the mess now as we run out of area codes. :)
I remember those days. The exchange letters were added to existing five-digit numbers. Our exchange office in South Bend was CEntral while my aunt and uncle had ATlantic. Those were phased out around 1966; CEntral was no longer used by the time we left Indiana.
Ask our Forgotten buddy Kevin Walsh, im sure he knows about it out in his neck of the woods.
There was a local landowner named Murray in that part of Flushing, in the colonial era or the early 1800s. Murray Hill and Murray Street are named for him. The mystery for me is how did Murray Street keep its name? It could have easily been renamed 151st Street...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The Murray landowners survived into the late 1800s. See the map I posted.
Yeah, that would be Murray the H. (as in Hill), as opposed to Murray the 'K'. Murray (the Hill) disappeared on me about 8 years ago after I tried to collect on a $20 IOU....;-D
Seriously, I haven't the foggiest idea on the origins of Murray Hill...maybe heypaul has got a lead...or at least 'Johnny, the Shoeshine guy'.
I already made a post on the origins of Murray Hill. Two, one from memory, the other from a Google Search.
Of course we know Mrs. Murray had two hills......Rim Shot !!!!!!
Does anyone know a good website that has good Metrolink Pics? Thanks
www.trainlink.org/mpa/
Speaking of Metrolink, LA have a brief commuter service to Oxnard runned by CALTRAIN in 1982. Also,OCTA provide commuter train service to San Juan Capistriano starting in 1990, prior to Metrolink takeover. Does anyone know which passenger coaches were used for either services?
The Link you gave me was broken.
I didn't know Metrolink Cars were Tri-Level Cars, Kool!
http://www.trainweb.org/mpa/
The cars are standard Bombardier UDTC cars. In fact, after the 1995 Northridge earthquake, when ridership from towns like Lancaster, Palmdale, and Santa Clarita surged, GO trains were brought in to work the lines, complete with the F(P)7 green and white HEP generator locomotives.
did not work
Wait, what didn't work, the link or the GO trains?
If the link didn't work, here's a hyperlink to http://www.trainweb.org/mpa/. After this I give up, go to google and type in Metrolink Photo Archive if you want.
I know the GO trains eventually did go home, but was always under the impression that they helped Metrolink quite well in it's moment if need, especially with I-5's bridge out, there was virtually no direct way out of the Santa Clarita valley for those who commuted to Downtown LA. Excuse me for being so focused on the SCV, however that was where I lived around that time, and as such, that's waht I remember. To tell you the truth, it wasn't until much later that I realized that the Metrolink went places other than the Santa Clarita and Semi Valleys.
On a more railfan side, it was great to see the FP7s (I think thats what they were at one time) following up a green and white bombardier train, dodging in and out of the cuts west of Via Princessa on Soledad Canyon Rd. They really looked oddly at home there, green and white are quite rare in the Canyon Country part of Santa Clarita, and the way they stood out was somewhat impressive, compared to the SP piggybacks and tank trains that merely blended into the dark hills. The GO trains always had an FP-7 either right behind the engine, usually a F59PH, or on the back is suppose behind the cab control car, if they used them on HEP locomotive equipped trains.
The GO trainsets most certainly DID work. Wanna see my videotapes of them in action on Metrolink?
Normally, the FP7 power car would be sandwiched between the train it was supplying electricity to and an Amtrak F40. There were four Amtrak F40's loaned to Metrolink after the earthquake.
Not nly did they use two GO Transit trainsets, but they also had one eight-car consist from Caltrain in the San Francisco area. I don't know what coaches they had...but the cab car was 4019. It is also in the videotapes I made of Metrolink shortly after the earthquake.
The damn thing is, I was given official permission to do some cab ride videotapes on Metrolink's routes in late 1993. While heading north on the Santa Clarita line in the cab of the F59, you can hear the engineer saying "Geez, sure wouldn't want to be under these bridges if an earthquake hit" about the time we were passing under the I-5/SR14/I-210 interchanges that DID collapse on 1/17/94!!!
Sorry about my typo!
N/P
To answer the question about commuter equipment in southern California in the mid-1980s:
The Oxnard-LA train was first operated with a couple mid-1950's vintage Southern Pacific smooth-sided gallery cars from the San Francisco operation. It was usually pulled by one of SP's freight GP-9's. The gallery cars had their own diesel engine underneath to generate electricity for lights/climate control, so it didn't matter what power pulled the train. I even saw it was a GP-35 on one trip. SP wanted the equipment back up north, so then they used three Amfleet coaches and an F40 for a couple weeks. Two METRA (ex-Milwaukee) galleries were shipped west but never used, they sat in storage in the area of UP East Los Angeles yard.
The San Juan Capistrano-LA train was NOT originally OCTA (Orange County Transportation Authority) but one of their forerunner agencies, Orange County Transportation COMMISSION. It started out with a four car train -- three Amcoaches and an ex-Metroliner car car propelled by an F40. This was in 1990-early 1991. OCTA was formed by merging the OCTC, Orange County Transit District (bus operation) and a few other transportation related agencies within the county in 1992.
In late 1991, arrangements were made to borrow four Caltrain gallery cars -- 3844, 3845, 3847 and 3848. Normally the train would run with three of the four cars, plus an ex-Metroliner cab car and power would be either an F40 or one of Amtrak's then-brand new 500 series P32BWH's. The Caltrain cars were also used as extra coaches on the San Diegans on weekends. (One might ask why car 3846 was skipped. When the carbodies were built in Japan, they were shipped as top-deck cargo on freighters. The ship carrying a load of the cars hit heavy seas, and the original 3846 is at the bottom of the Pacific! The replacement 3846 is two years newer than the rest of the fleet -- 1987 versus 1985. Caltrain wanted to keep the newer car, I guess!)
In August, 1992, Caltrain needed the cars back. Luckily, the first of the Metrolink equipment was already delivered...so they were able to start using a four-car set (cab/coach/coach/coach). Cab cars were 601 or 602, locos were F59's 851 or 852, and trailer cars 101-105 were alternated on and off the train. (The two cab cars and locos were the first fitted with the old AT&SF style ATSF shoes hanging off the truck sides as the line had, at the time, ATS south of Santa Ana allowing 90 mile an hour operation.
YES !! contact and stay in touch with me !!!!
I am working on a yahoo group site ....
ALSO BELOW IS METROLINK AS A WEBSITE AND MY OTHERS
here is a somewhat list of my yahoo groups :
and photo album communities etc...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7FLUSHING/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ASIATICCOMMUNICATIONS/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BLUELINE/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitaltransitphotography/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSCS30/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dscs30sonydigitalstillcamera/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MassTransitCommentary/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/METROLINKCOMMUTERtrainz/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGSR33K/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/REDLINEsubway/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthernCaliforniaTransit/?yguid=43376975
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/finishthe710freeway/?yguid=43376975
THIS IS ONLY A PART OF MY YAHOO GROUPS LISTS !!
ENJOY- JOIN PARTICIPATE !! SalaamAllah "ants" ol' man here !!!
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com RAIL & BUS TRANSIT
salaamallah@hotmail.com
donutsdude@yahoo.com other information etc....
http://www.webspawner.com/users/salaamallah/index.html WEBSPAWNER LINKS SITE
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/ TRANSIT VIDEOS FOR SALE INFORMATION
ALSO MY LIST APPEARS ON http://www.nycsubway.org/transfer/salaam_videos.html
http://www.nycsubway.org/index.html DAVID PIRMANNS SITE DA" EST EVER !!!!
Thankz folks SalaamAllah { THAT CRAZY BALD HEADED TOOTHLESS 50+ OLD MAN }
http://www.trainweb.com/photos/metrolink/go2f.jgp has photos of Toronto GO coaches borrowed by LA Metrolink.
Correction:
http://www.trainweb.com/photos/metrolink/go2f/jpg
as i said i got the links and the photos of metrolkink !!
in fact i am going back to the union station to retake some more !!
I TOOK THESE 2 PHOTOS POSTED ON THIS SITE !!
LOL !!
correction metrolink !!
sorry .........
Compliments on that night shot -- beautiful!!!!
with railroad.net on the fritz and i suspect some of ya'all post there too, I was wondering if anyone around here knew anything of the current health of freight coming and going from LI. Last i heard on rr.net (before the damned microsquish asp errors...), CP was hauling in stone from upstate now, around 15-20 cars of it. is that going on? once a week? twice? is CP now running a decent sized train and/or plotting on moving to 5 day a week service sometme soon?
I'm assuming csx and p&w are doing their usual schtick, which isn't bad... wasn't P&W getting new engines though? anything show up here?
and cross harbor... what's up with them people?
NYCH is still hanging on by their fingernails. It would appear that the City wants to replace them but they seem unwilling/able to step on their fingers. They should either step on their fingers or give then a hand up because the current situation benifits no one.
Have heard that CP has cooled on use of floats in favor of improving Selkilk. Meanwhile NY & Atl is soildering along trying to provide good service & generate more business.
Mr t__:^)
Railroad.net is NOT on the fritz. They have returned recently, but are not under the same setup as before.
Rail freight on LI is healthy -- considering the overall economic conditions...
BMT Man, if I read the mission statement correctly, you're ON topic. Lookie here:
This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only.
I'm not Dave, but since you're talking about rail transport, I'd say this topic is kosher.
:-) Andrew
BMT Man, if I read the mission statement correctly, you're ON topic. Lookie here:
Actually The Joe started the topic, not BMT man, but you are right, it is on topic.
Railroad.net is NOT on the fritz. They have returned recently, but are not under the same setup as before.
Railroad.net has been on the fritz for about two weeks now. Most of the time you can't get through to the forums, and when you can, it's so slow that it's impossible to use.....I gave up until the problem is resolved.
it *seems* to be back, at least this morning...
I'm pessimistic, so I don't think that Amtrak will be saved. I'm also a realist, and realize that politicians won't let all their local services halt in their tracks (bad pun) and anger their constituents. So oddly enough, this is what I envision -
Congress lets Amtrak go without its bailout, and on the verge of the shutdown (Tuesday night, perhaps), declares a state of emergency, and orders that all Amtrak personnel essential to allowing the safe operation of commuter trains remain on duty. Hence tower operators, switchmen, and anyone else required to keep commuter trains running would be forced to stay.
Admittedly, I'm not sure if this is possible, and I'm pretty sure it's unconstitutional, but it sure would make for some interesting rail operations.
CNN's "Headlines" said that AMTRAK will remain running until at least July 8th which provides a little respite of the emergency. Talks with rail officials and David Gunn manages to keep it running a little bit longer.
The day before, CNN's "Headlines" reported that "AMTRAK to shut down Wed. without $200 M loan".
July 8th is the key date for a shut down if not avoidable.
In an surprising turn of events, a few subtalkers actually agree with one of my recents postings...
FRA's response to a wreck caused by signal misinterpretation--build more crash resistant cars starting five years later.
Typical. Fix the symptom, not the problem. The problem is a train got in front of the path of another. The symptom was a few wrecked Amfleets.
Cab signals what are they? (details see previous posts on the CSX/MARC 1996 wreck in Silver Spring MD)
The assinine thing about this is, if the signal system uses coded track circuits, I believe it'll support cab signals already. IIRC, the GG-1s ran under cab signal control on the New haven, but because the codded signals weren't carried through interlockings, they had to have the auto-stop cut out. Better than nothing, though.
And it's not to say the European standards are are really that 'flimsy' (to use mike's favorite word :) In fact, they do ask for quite a bit of energy dissipation, but they also ask for energy management, something the FRA has yet to discover.
I will predict it here, and say it now:
Any high speed accident involving the Acela running faster than 100mph, will result in the deaths of a considerable number of passengers
Certainly, an ICE type accident will. A collision with an immoveable object will. I'm affraid that even a simple derailment at speed, will too.
As with 'standards organizations' in other fields (don't get me started on the other NEC and our buddies at unconcerned laboratories) the 'cheapskates' often have too much influence (aluminum building wire anybody?) but all that said the staandards/codes/component certification are necessary.
Sure, but rational standards. Simply regulating based on 1800's engineering beliefs is poor policy. The cost of even supercomputing power is dirt cheap today, and materials have gotten better, design methods have gotten better, and we know more about what goes on in a crash. We can, and should, be getting more for less out of our equipment, and in every way possible.
We just need to keep pushing for better codes/ stricter enforcement.
Bingo. We don't need more regulation, we need better regulation. Outside of the US, nobody holds the FRA's opinion on railcar design. Given that US passenger rail statistics are comperable to European ones, I'd say their approach is just as safe as ours, and has resulted in significantly lower costs, flexibility, and operational modes that don't, and can't, exist in the US.
For instance:
This is a modern German DMU car. Note - low floor, level boarding at low platforms, truss body design, 80mph operation, PCC streetcar - like acceleration / braking, and oh yes, privately operated.
This is an ideal solution for regional transit (as is the flexiliner, regiosprinter, etc too), is inexpensive, to buy and run, and can be run by a 2 person crew. It would be the ideal solution for 'branch' lines, such as New Haven to Springfield, or DC to Richmond (until wires go up). A Flexiliner would be the ideal setup for a lie like the Downeaster. Once again, very high performance, lower than US equipment cost:
A flexiliner - great for 'higher class' and more substantial routes.
Of course, I firmly believe we should be moving towards electrification. Once again, we see modern features in Europe:
Note the excellent passenger access at lower than US high level platforms. Once again, performance is high, costs are low.
This is the equipment Amtrak and others should have access to, and should run. If Amtrak was moving towards high pperformance equipment like DMUs, I'm willing to bet they wouldn't be in the crunch they are now. But nobody likes a slow loser.
Guys - what we have right now is the best possible situation - a litteral supermarket of railcars from Europe. We can pick and choose the absolute best, if only the FRA's insane regulations get reformed and we have some rational thought applied to what rail can do in the US.
And if you want evidence - look at the amazing success of light rail in the US - all with European and Japanese built equipment. Look also to the AEM-7, which still delivers an excellent amount of bang for the buck - but is basically an modified version of a Sweedish locomotive.
We're total idiots for not taking advantage of what for us would truely be a buyer's makert. And we could 'borrow' equipment running now to test it (like we did with the X-2000), and we can get the top shelf designs after they've been debugged.
And of course, we can get the proven design of the TGV :)
IMHO, Amtrak reform, and FRA reform, should be going hand in hand, and should happen now, while we have the chance.
For instance CAB SIGNALS on all routes with more than two passenger trains per day.
IMHO this should have been mandated eons ago. The safety record of the LIRR under cab signal operation speaks for itself.
Typical. Fix the symptom, not the problem. The problem is a train got in front of the path of another. The symptom was a few wrecked Amfleets.
If you are given an egg and you are put in a room and you need to prevent the egg from impacting on one of the hard surfaces of the room which there is a small probability of occuring every second which of the following do you do. Do you pad the entire room or do you pad the egg? If it much more cost effective to make railcars crash resistant then the entire RoW they travel on.
The assinine thing about this is, if the signal system uses coded track circuits, I believe it'll support cab signals already.
First off, most if not all coded track circuts are part of cab signaling systems. I have heard of rail transmitted signals for ABS signaling on some back woods rail lines, but this is entirely inadequate for CSS as CSS needs a train to "eat" the CSS code, where in an track carried ABS system the signal needs to get through.
IIRC, the GG-1s ran under cab signal control on the New haven, but because the codded signals weren't carried through interlockings, they had to have the auto-stop cut out.
You keep trotting out this example for some reason like it proves some point of yours. All it is, is an example of two signaling systems colliding after a merger.
Simply regulating based on 1800's engineering beliefs is poor policy. The cost of even supercomputing power is dirt cheap today, and materials have gotten better, design methods have gotten better, and we know more about what goes on in a crash. We can, and should, be getting more for less out of our equipment, and in every way possible.
The 1800's was about overengineering and 5-10 fold safety margins. If we combine 1800 machanical engineering talent w/ modern materials we should have a vehicle should should survive from now until the end of time. You can settle with more for less, but I prefer much much more for the same or greater.
Outside of the US, nobody holds the FRA's opinion on railcar design.
Yeah, cause their railroads all suck ass. They have sucked ass in the past, they continue to suck ass in the present and they will suck ass in the future. Small loading guages, low power, light rail, under engineered RoW its like a giant continential trolley system. Let's see what happens if you tried to run a 130 car coal trail with a couple of SD-80MAC's on the point. You'd tear the RoW to little bitty shreads. If you pitted one of those Eurocrusiers againse a loaded US freight engine (which could and would happen on US RR's) the freight train would tear through that train like my 1974 LTD hitting a Mini. You'd be looking at a 60% fatality rate easily. When you're on US rails you're playin with the big boys and you'd better wear proper protection.
Given that US passenger rail statistics are comperable to European ones, I'd say their approach is just as safe as ours,
Five words for ya, Hatfield, Ladbrook Grove, Selby, Southall. You're looking at about 80 people dead, just since 1997, just in the UK alone, all from accidents where the train derailed and the cars deformed, mangled and other wise ripped open killing the passengers within. Ok now, Amtrak, hmmm, since 1997, hmmm, the Illinios wreck and the Auto Train, 15 people. Now consider the fact that there is an Amtrak related grade crossing accident about every two weeks. If europe had as many poorly protected grade crossings as we did you'd see fatal accidents on a monthly basis.
BTW where was another incident where an OOS DMU was hit by a freight locomotive. The carbody/passenger compartment was knocked right clear of the under-frame. Had it been in service, scores would have died.
I am going to ask this question now. Have you even been to Europe and ridden on these trains you tout about so much? I have. I went there, I rode the TGV, took the chunnel and also rode on all the various regional alternatives including a commuter train. I was younger and smaller then and the trains seemed...fine. They were certainly frequent enough and the hi-speed RoW's sure got you around even if the view/ride sucked. Anyway, when I got back I went and visited a Rail musuem down on the eastern shore of VA and they had some Pullman cars there and I like wanted inside, took one look and was like "Fuck that European shit, I want one of these!". I mean those things were like 3 of me tall wth clearstory windows and everything. It made me notice that the euro-trains were about the same size as one of those older coach buses, the ones with the stainless steel made by MCI. In Europe you pay through the nose to ride something the size of a bus with the comfort level of a bus. An Amtrak coach seat is the size of a European 1st class seat. Pay more, get less. The only advantages is that you can sometimes snag an old compartment coach and get a compartment to yourself and its like your own private rail gymnasium/conferance room. They also let you ride in the rear vestabule. BTW I did ride in one of those DMU's you love so much from Valance to Grenoble and this thing was a complete piece of shit. The ride was so bouncy it made Pioneer III trucks look like Hyatt Radials. Every time we went through a tunnel diesel exaust came into the passenger compartment. The seating was equivalent to what one sees on the NYC subway (hard backed vinyl) w/ even some lonigtudinal seats. It was a bloddy nightmare with bus acceleration, bus speeds and NO COMFORTS OR AMENITIES. Nobody will pay for a train and ride on a bus. The lo-floor design gives you a great view if you enjoy watching stumps and weeds for 2 hours. You can't pass between cars, forget about bathrooms and food service and guess where all that under-floor equipment has to go? That's right, in place of luggage, leg and head room.
This is a modern German DMU car. Note - low floor, level boarding at low platforms
Come for the ride, stay for the view.
80mph operation
Is that with the wind or still air?
oh yes, privately operated.
With heavy government subsudies of course. And with those slim profit margins you have customer service that makes Amtrak look like the Ritz Carleton. Don't believe me? Ask AEM7.
truss body design
We all remember how well those light weight trusses stood up to impact in the WTC.
This is an ideal solution for regional transit (as is the flexiliner, regiosprinter, etc too), is inexpensive, to buy and run, and can be run by a 2 person crew.
Due to no passing through they need a ticket collector in each car. This is how it works in the new UK DMU's. Same w/ food service, if any.
again, very high performance, very low comfort. If people wanted preformance they'd all ride motorcycles.
flexiliner - great for 'higher class' and more substantial routes.
By "higher class" do you mean "barely passible for commuter rail equipment?
Of course, I firmly believe we should be moving towards electrification. Once again, we see modern features in Europe:
That's not electrifacation, that's trolley wire. Electrifacation has big ceramic insulators and heavy guage cable.
Note the excellent passenger access at lower than US high level platforms. Once again, performance is high, costs are low.
Those French semi-high's are a travisty of a farce. They are too low to avoid a step up and too high to allow for a dual hi-lo platform system. Have you ever even been to France and seen how those things work? Its an ADA mightmare. Although the TGV's have these cute little folding steps that pop out.
If Amtrak was moving towards high pperformance equipment like DMUs
They tried that already. They SPV's sucked. BTW the whole MU concept is (sadly) out of date since the advent of push-pull. Why run a train of locmotives that require locomotive controls and locomotive record keeping and locomotive safety features and locomotive inspections when you can just run one.
IMHO this should have been mandated eons ago. The safety record of the LIRR under cab signal operation speaks for itself.
I think it is in New Jersey. After the Newark Bay Lift Bridge disaster the state PUC mandated positive train stop on all passenger trains in the state. There may be some exceptions as the Gladstone NJT line is unsignaled as is the line to Hacketstown. If you look at old pics of MP-54's you can see orange bands in the first window behind the cab. One band indicates the car is Cab Signal equipped. Two bands means it has stop and forestaler equipment.
I also confirmed this weekend that the NJT Raritan Valley is cab signal equipped.
"Yeah, cause their railroads all suck ass. They have sucked ass in the past, they continue to suck ass in the present and they will suck ass in the future. Small loading guages, low power, light rail, under engineered RoW its like a giant continential trolley system. Let's see what happens if you tried to run a 130 car coal trail with a couple of SD-80MAC's on the point. You'd tear the RoW to little bitty shreads. If you pitted one of those Eurocrusiers againse a loaded US freight engine (which could and would happen on US RR's) the freight train would tear through that train like my 1974 LTD hitting a Mini. You'd be looking at a 60% fatality rate easily. When you're on US rails you're playin with the big boys and you'd better wear proper protection."
HSR is incompatable with freight operations.
HSR needs is own ROWs, which fortunately already exist as Interstates. It is dirt cheap to build a rail line along with them. The Rail line would cost a craction of what the existing highway roadbed costs. WE AIN'T TALKING BIG MONEY HERE!
Any of those European cars sets would be at home on such a line.
Elias
HSR is incompatable with freight operations.
That is true, to a certain extent, but given the kind of density you have on transcon routes EITHER HERE or EUROPE, you cannot afford not to take advantage of the economies of density resulted from shared RoW, between freight and pax trains. That means you have to compromise engineering to suit both purposes.
Let's take an example.
* NYP-CHI daily airline traffic = 8,500 paxs/day (USDOT 10% ticket sample data -- one-way-trips)
* Given average fares, NYP-CHI captures about 66% of the latent demand, thus latent demand is 12,750 paxs/day (i.e. 6,000 round-trips per day)
* 6,000 round-trips per day, if rail captured ALL demands, would translate into roughly 10 trains -- at most 15 trains/direction/day.
* Thus, any exclusive HSR RoW will capture at most 30 tpd.
* Cost of an NYP-CHI RoW, built from scratch, is about $14 million/mile * 900 miles = $12.6 billion
* 30 tpd over 30 years at 365 days/year = 328,500 cycles
* Thus infrastructure cost per cycle (excluding financing costs) = $38,356 PER TRAIN.
* Thus infrastructure cost per pax = 38,356/600 = $63.9 per pax
That's a lot of money to pay just for infrastructure. Don't forget your ticket price will include operating costs also. To spread that cost, we have to allow other trains to use the track. This include freight trains. This means we will have to compromise on some of the requirements of pax high speed rail.
AEM7
As long as they don't careen off the rails and play "gray running mutt" with a bridge abutment. Clunky as FRA-regulated passenger coaches may be, I know I have a good chance of living if there IS a wreck. ANOTHER reason why I prefer the pointless arrow to other modes.
First off, lay off Eschede, I'm sick and tired of it being trotted out as a hobbyhorse that proves how that proves that european railroads are shoddy, it proves nothing, anything that hits a bridge abutment at 125 mph is bound to be pretty bad off, even the much vaunted Amfleet and Acela. All that an increase in mass brings to the equation is an increase in energy, the kind that must be disipated before the accident can end and those involved can come to a stop. Higher mass is great when you are facing down a trio of SD40s with some doublestacks or coal cars, but it won't help you much when your train decides to bury itself in something 5.98x10^24 heavier, an occurance that can happen anywhere, anytime, on any track.
The railcars that the US spews forth seem to come from the same design school that has told us that a SUV is safer than a sedan. The only reason that the sedan may not be safer than an SUV is because the !@#d!@# SUV hits the sedan with such force from it's wasted mass that the sedan, for all it's safety features, is simply overcome, and crunches.
I currently drive a '91 honda civic, a quite basic car, rough seats, not the smoothest ride, manual transmission, no airbags, and no real skid control or anything, and yet I trust that car implicitly. I have seen what car manufacturers, and honda in particular can do to keep the car from folding around you. My friend crashed his 2001 honda civic ex on a few weeks ago, he was going about 65 at the time of the accident, hit the right side of the car on the guard rail, this spun the car and smashed it into the center divider of the highway. I was in the right front passenger seat, and two more people were in the rear two seats, all of the people in the car walked away unscathed, we managed to get the car off the highway, and phone for help. If the car had been a little bit heavier, say a Ford Escape or so, there is a very good chance that, rather than ricocheting off the guard rail, it would have punctured the guard rail and sent us down into small river below. Or even if it had ricocheted, there is a good chance that a heavier car would have bounced over the quite small center divider and landed in oncoming traffic. In the end, the engineering of the car, not it's mass or size, saved our hides.
The point of that story is to illustrate that mass of railcar has nothing to do with how well it will survive an accident, it is what is done with the energy that determines how many passengers will survive an accident. You could have a massive passenger car that had a nice ride becuase it used very heavy materials, and hence smoothed out the tracks bumps, but in an accident, all those heavy beams along the bottom would part, spilling people all over to be crushed under the heavy cars. I'd rather have a light weight car with some kind of energy management in it.
Those guard rails are pretty strong and were designed in the 70's when cars were the size of aircraft carriers. An SUV would have probably hit the rail and remained stable, thus avoiding the spin you were put into. A VERY dangerous situation if I may say so. Your car car's lack of mass nearly got you killed.
Cars and SUV generally use a forged H frame that the body and chassie is attached to. There are no "beams" that can "split appart".
Larger cars are safer in two respects. They have more mass and can "crumple" the object their hit. They also are larger and have more "zone" themselves to crumple. Cars today need to have big long hoods again. Oh, and real bumpers too. Made of chrome plated steel. Bolted on and costing $100 to replace/fix. Body pannels are a conspiracy set up by dealers and repair shoppes to seperate you from your money.
"Larger cars are safer in two respects. They have more mass and can "crumple" the object their hit. They also are larger and have more "zone" themselves to crumple. Cars today need to have big long hoods again. Oh, and real bumpers too. Made of chrome plated steel. Bolted on and costing $100 to replace/fix. Body pannels are a conspiracy set up by dealers and repair shoppes to seperate you from your money. "
Correct for current designs. Decades ago, a crash in a larger car was likely to injure you, because the car was not designed to crumple. Most of the energy of a collision was transferred to the passengers. The car was fine; the passengers went to the hospital.
Good for car insurance companys. 6-10 MPG isn't bad too. One of the first car saftey laws were so the dashboards (like where passenger side airbags are) don't have sharp edges and so they were padded (no pure steel dashboard that cuts your skull in two like a axe for you).
The car was fine; the passengers went to the hospital.
Well seatbelts helped with that problem. Now the passengers go to the hospital after they get the auto-repair bill and suffer a heart attack.
You know, if we apply simple game theory to cars, where each consumer can buy a large old car or a small new car, because if you have a big old car and hit the small new car you'll crumple the new car and no little auto damage and little personal injury, each consumer has an incentive to buy a large old car. Thus the Nash equilibrium is everyone driving a large old car.
I better buy a RTS. RTS vs Ford Excursion who wins?
"Well seatbelts helped with that problem"
Yes, they did, but not entirely. The introduction of crumple zones helped too. Unfortunately the result is a bigger repair bill.
Mind you, seatbelts are essential. You want to stay in the car during a collision and let the car absorb the energy. I'm amazed at the number of people who think that being thrown free is the most likely, and safest, outcome. It is neither.
$500 for a shopping cart damage.
Next point. What happens if the SUV flips over the guardrail. also remember that the heavyer the vehical the more force (lb.) the guard rail be hit along with anything that it hits. A 1988 Nissan Stanza will have less force on impact than a Ford Excursion (look at one of those, can you get a bigger non-commercial car?).
Oh, and real bumpers too. Made of chrome plated steel. Bolted on and costing $100 to replace/fix.
Obviously you haven't priced steel bumpers lately. How about $280 for a good (not perfect) one on a junkyard? Since the one I have isn't much less perfect, I'll probably have it straightened and rechromed for about $400 (or I may just leave it alone for a while); a NOS bumper is nearly $900 for the same vehicle.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Larger cars are safer in two respects. They have more mass and can "crumple" the object their hit. They also are larger and have more "zone" themselves to crumple. Cars today need to have big long hoods again. Oh, and real bumpers too. Made of chrome plated steel. Bolted on and costing $100 to replace/fix.
Ford Mustangs must have terrific bumpers. Last weekend I saw the aftermath of a mid-90's Dodge Intrepid's rear-ending a newish Mustang. The Intrepid was definitely junkyard-bound, in fact even a brand new model with the same damage probably couldn't be saved. While the Intrepid's front bumper was intact, presumably having slipped below the Mustang's rear bumper, the rest of the front end was destroyed. It was crumpled back at least a foot, maybe 18 inches, with the hood bent at a 45-degree angle, the grille and headlights completely obliterated, both fenders crumpled up against the tires, and the radiator smashed (judging by all the steam I saw) and probably crushed back into the engine block. The Mustang? The plastic cover on the rear bumper was slightly damaged. That's it.
"Five words for ya, Hatfield, Ladbrook Grove, Selby, Southall. You're looking at about 80 people dead, just since 1997, just in the UK alone, all from accidents where the train derailed and the cars deformed, mangled and other wise ripped open killing the passengers within."
UK is running on old track alignments, mantained by a third party looking to keep its costs down. Those accidents would not have occured on properly constructed and signaled track.
Much of the signalling problem would not exist with new infrastructure. The dang thing would be run by computers. The driver is along for the ride, and to take command if necessary. The computer keeps inch by inch track of every train on the line, knows their speeds and directions and can stop trains 20 miles before they get into trouble.
Its not perfect, the unforseen will always happen, heck shit happens. But you cannot advance into a new world with out leaving the old one behind.
Don't Look Back, or you will turn into a pillar of salt!
Elias
UK is running on old track alignments
The track where the Selby accident happened was part of the Selby cut-off constructed as part of the East Coast Mainline Modernization Scheme in 1991 -- THIRTEEN YEARS AGO. The cut off was constructed after land was taken away from Yorkshire farmers. It was a brand-new RoW engineered for a target speed of 140mph. That section of the RoW and its geometry is newer than ANY part of the Northeast Corridor.
properly constructed and signaled track.
The UK has AWS (Advanced Warning System) which is in effect a two-aspect cab signalling system THROUGHOUT ITS ENTIRE MAINLINE NETWORK, including rural lines. That is more than could be said even for the line between Albany and Boston, between New Haven and Springfield, and on the Washington suburban lines.
Much of the signalling problem would not exist with new infrastructure.
WMATA Shady Grove accident 1996. Here for more details.
The driver is along for the ride, and to take command if necessary.
Psychological research has shown that humans are not likely to be attentive unless they have something to keep them occupied. If you read some of the investigation reports into A330 autopilot failures on China Airlines, you would understand why it isn't a good idea to let the computer do everything and have the human as a backup. Better to take the Boeing approach -- let the human work and let the computer be the override when necessary.
The computer keeps inch by inch track of every train on the line, knows their speeds and directions and can stop trains 20 miles before they get into trouble.
No one said that positive train control is a bad thing (well, Mike doesn't believe in CBTC, but I do). However, one has to understand that technology will not cure everything and there needs to be a compromise between old-school solutions and new cost effective technologies.
AEM7
Also remember that the Selby accident was the result of someone driving a Land Rover onto the RoW. There's not much a computer could have done about that. Hatfield was a broken rail, again, nothing a computer could have done. Passenger cars need to be crash resistant.
Re: CBTC, there was some T-storms through here w/ some power outages and large parts of PA lost their cell phone service as a result. Wireless communications and such are too vulnerable to trust to run an important transit network. Surrent ABS technology is sectionally independant/redundant, can by run from 24VDC supplied from solar rechargable batteries and can be easily repaired with commonly found parts. Compared with a CSS, CBTC provides little extra operational benefits with greater initial costs and operational risks.
Also remember that the Selby accident was the result of someone driving a Land Rover onto the RoW. There's not much a computer could have done about that. Hatfield was a broken rail, again, nothing a computer could have done.
Correct, but Southall was some signalling error and Ladbroke Grove was a SPAD (signal passed at danger). I believe Clapham also had something to do with the signal system, so now they're mega-cautious about it as it's costing them money in compensation to the relatives.
Correct, but Southall was some signalling error and Ladbroke Grove was a SPAD (signal passed at danger)
Southall was a double-SPAD. Ladbroke Grove was a single-SPAD. Southall can be attributed in part to lame dispatching (why pull a freight out of a siding when an express passenger was due in the next 10 minutes?) Ladbroke Grove can be attributed to signal sighting issues. Yes, it is true to say that computerized train control could have prevented them both.
I believe Clapham also had something to do with the signal system,
Clapham was a different animal. Clapham was due to a wrong-side failure in the signalling system that sent three EMU's through single-yellow (30mph) aspects headlong into each other when the latter two EMU's should have seen a red (danger) aspect.
Calfornia DOT once said of IVHS (Intelligent Vehicle Highway System) that on an IVHS equipped highway, there will be no crashes but when there is a crash, it will kill 200 people. Even if the highway without IVHS may kill 400 people culmulatively, the public will prefer the conventional highway versus the automatic highway, because a technical glitch that causes the loss of 200 lives would never be politically acceptable, whereas 100 crashes that kill 4 people each will probably blow over with time. This is another reason why technology should not be trusted too much, even if it can be demonstrated that the risks are statistically lower.
AEM7
The 1800's was about overengineering and 5-10 fold safety margins. If we combine 1800 machanical engineering talent w/ modern materials we should have a vehicle should should survive from now until the end of time. You can settle with more for less, but I prefer much much more for the same or greater.
Mike, before spewing your typical crap, please aquire a basic understand of engineering. It'll make you look like less of a total idiot.
Yeah, cause their railroads all suck ass. They have sucked ass in the past, they continue to suck ass in the present and they will suck ass in the future
Funny, european RRs move tens, if not hundreds of times more people than all of Amtrak. European rail equipment is on average 2 to 3 times more powerful tyhan Us equopment, it's often 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost, it's 2 times as reliable, it's significant'ly cheaper to run.
The fact is simple - the US trails theindustrialized world in railway engineering. We have for nearly 4 decadeds, now.
Small loading guages, low power, light rail, under engineered RoW
You obviously havbe no clue what you're talking about. please stop now before you make yourself look like an even bigger idiot.
. If you pitted one of those Eurocrusiers againse a loaded US freight engine (which could and would happen on US RR's) the freight train would tear through that train like my 1974 LTD hitting a Mini.
This is why signalling systems were invented. I love how you always whine and moan about underinvestment in railways, but think investing is actual signal systems is a waste.
Or are you just so full of bullshit you can't remember what it all looked like?
. Ok now, Amtrak, hmmm, since 1997, hmmm, the Illinios wreck and the Auto Train, 15 people.
And the TGV, in a nearly identical accident - zero
Once again, you demonstrate a total lack of knowlage on the subject at hand.
If europe had as many poorly protected grade crossings as we did you'd see fatal accidents on a monthly basis.
In fact, Eurpoe has many unprotected grade crossings. probbably more than the US. Most grade crossings, anywhere in the world, are unprotected. Stop buying into the Amfreak foamer myth that all of Europe is grade sepperated. It's not. It's not even close, and it's not any more sepperated than the US.
Is that with the wind or still air?
That's with lowers costs, higher acceleration, and significantly better braking than anything on Amtrak's roster, period.
We all remember how well those light weight trusses stood up to impact in the WTC.
You really are a total idiot, aren't you? Do you even understand any basic concepts behind the design of anything?
That's not electrifacation, that's trolley wire. Electrifacation has big ceramic insulators and heavy guage cable.
Huh? Ok, I guess 25kv and 1,000 amp capacity is for troley lines/ BTW, the Swiss run the world's mosat powerful 4 axle locomotives - 9000+ hp, on the same catenary design. I guess if you like paying 3 times as much for an identical system, plus 3 times the maintenance, you can do things the PRR way, but this is the reason why passenger rail is dead in the US, and the reason why nobody wants to fund Amtrak. It's a dinosaur in a space ship world.
The simple fact is the costs of running Amtrak style equipment are simply too high for the ridership it's laughably poor performance delivers. The US isn't full of rabid foaming railfans that pop a woody at the sight of 2 P-42's struggling to pull a 12 car train up a 1% grade at a whopping 40mph. People want to go A to B, today, not next month.
So they fly or drive.
Amtrak gets little ridership.
No point in funding it.
Why run a train of locmotives that require locomotive controls and locomotive record keeping and locomotive safety features and locomotive inspections when you can just run one.
Because the performance of a locomotive hauled train is so dismal, passengers don't want to ride it. the acceleration of Amtrak's much flaunted P-40's and P-42s is a sad joke at best, and a sadder reflection of our lack of any ability to design passenger equipment at worst.
A 3 car Flexiliner Vs a P-42 and 3 Amfleets is:
Faster in the top speed (120mph Vs a doubtful 110)
Faster acceleration (2.0 mph/s sec Vs .5 mph/sec)
Shorter braking distances (as a result of disc braking vs acient clasp brakes.
Significantly less fuel use (about 1/10th the GE setup).
Lower cost (5 - 7 million for the Flexi, Vs 5 million for a loco, and 2 million *3 for the cars)
Faster turnaround (no need to turn the locomotive or set)
Significantly more reliable (redundant power Vs a single prime mover)
Better flexibility (Add cars without penalty, Vs add 3 cars to a P-42 and watch acceleration drop even farther).
That's why passenger locomotive orders havew been declining, and MU orders are soaring.
I'll repeat my prediction here : In 15 years, you will see nobody in the industrialized world outside the US/Canada ordering passenger locomotives.
Even third worlds are abandoning the locomotive for the MU.
Down in Texas today. Bus crashed into pillar. 4 died.
If that bus was built to FRA crashworthiness standards, the pillar would have moved out the way with the bus suffering a small dent.
Enough said.
P.S. With regard to your "systems" approach to safety -- yes, risk management is a good thing (i.e. examining options which offer different levels of risk and deciding which risk strategy to pursue). It would appear that the FRA approach to risk management is that they can afford relatively more risks of property damage (i.e. railcars dented) than risks of life loss (i.e. railcars split open and people get flung out and crushed). I happen to agree with them. If you suggest that the extra costs that goes into making the railcars tougher can be better spent on signalling that decrease the risk of fatality by a larger amount, you are obviously poorly informed with regards to the cost of rail infrastructure, signalling or otherwise.
AEM7
If that bus was built to FRA crashworthiness standards, the pillar would have moved out the way with the bus suffering a small dent.
Bullshit. Are you really that much of an idiot? We're talking apples and oranges here. That pillar was solid concrete, reinforced with steel rebar, and probably about 4-5 feet in diameter. Any vehicle short of a Sherman tank would be smashed to pieces after hitting that thing at high speed.
And what if the pillar did happen to "move out of the way," as you put it? That pillar holds up a massive concrete overpass above that would have promptly collapsed and crushed the bus and any other vehicles in the way, killing dozens more. Now, aren't you happy that pillar didn't simply move out of the way?
Wouldn't it have been better for the bus not to have crashed into the pillar at all? Perhaps a more qualified driver without a crimial record who doesn't fall asleep at the wheel? Or a stronger guardrail that would have kept the bus on the highway? No, I guess that would have made too much sense.
-- David
Chicago, IL
And what if the pillar did happen to "move out of the way," as you put it? That pillar holds up a massive concrete overpass above that would have promptly collapsed and crushed the bus and any other vehicles in the way, killing dozens more. Now, aren't you happy that pillar didn't simply move out of the way?
Did the WTC collapse immediately after a 767 hit it? There is such thing as structural redundancy when you design a structure...
Or a stronger guardrail that would have kept the bus on the highway? No, I guess that would have made too much sense.
Wait a minute. How many buses in the US? Something like 50,000? How many miles of guardrail across the entire US on interstates? Something like 50,000? FRA compliance costs for buses? Stronger guardrail costs per mile? Think about what you're claiming here.
Did the WTC collapse immediately after a 767 hit it? There is such thing as structural redundancy when you design a structure...
The structure of the WTC and the structure of a rural highway overpass have absolutely NOTHING in common, and the circumstances of the wrecks are completely different. There is no comparison whatsoever. Try taking a few semesters worth of structures classes before spewing your ignorance here.
Wait a minute. How many buses in the US? Something like 50,000? How many miles of guardrail across the entire US on interstates? Something like 50,000? FRA compliance costs for buses? Stronger guardrail costs per mile? Think about what you're claiming here.
Now you're just babbling gibberish. What's your point? Nobody is suggesting that every mile of interstate highway have guardrails. If a bus goes off a road and ends up in Farmer Bob's cornfield, who cares? But where the highway passes close to a potentially-dangerous obstacle (overpass pillars, body of water, another highway, etc.), it's not unreasonable to have concrete Jersey-style barriers that re-direct the wheels of the vehicle back to the pavement. Such barriers are actually quite common in areas more advanced than Texas. The pillars of the particular overpass in question were protected only by flimsy metal guardrails that could easily have been compromised by a Honda Civic.
But my central point is that most most heavily-armoured busses and the most elaborate highway barriers on earth won't mean squat when you have drivers that fall asleep at the wheel while going 75 MPH.
And since the FRA has no jurisdiction over bus design, and the wreck had nothing to do with trains, it's a moot point here on SubTalk. Take it to BusTalk if you still want to debate the merits of bus design. I have no interest in busses, so I really couldn't care less.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The structure of the WTC and the structure of a rural highway overpass have absolutely NOTHING in common,
WTC floors are supported from two ends -- one end is the rigid structure in the middle of the building, hosting elevator shafts and emergency stairwell and other such "vertical" service ducts. The other end is the rigid outer shell of the building, a series of I-beams constructed to basically resemble a huge square metal tube. The floors of the WTC offers no structural strength.
A section of a highway overpass is supported from two ends -- one at one side, one at the other. The actual road surface itself also offers no structural strength.
What happened in the WTC was that an aircraft breached some of the vertical support members. Other support members then took the load, preventing the whole building from collapsing (at least momentarily).
What would have happened if one of the concrete pillars had been breached in an overpass, is that other adjacent concrete pillars would take the load, and the road would be at least temporarily secure.
Where you see five pillars, the road can usually be supported with three, so if two of the pillars are completely removed, the structure would remain standing.
In an earthquake, the road surface falls down to the ground, not usually because the pillars do not support the weight of the structure, but more usually because the structures are accelerated in a way they were not designed to deal with. For example, overpass pillars are usually in compression. An earthquake can put some of them momentarily in tension. Concrete is not very strong in tension.
Try taking a few semesters worth of structures classes before spewing your ignorance here.
You got me there. I'm no structural engineer. But I'm at least an informed stranger. If someone here is a structural engineer and wish to point out where I went wrong, please go right ahead. Until then, my comparison of the WTC structural performance and the highway overpass stands.
I rest my case.
AEM7
Lexcie, He is an ARCHITECT.
Ask an Engineer about how much engineering knowledge architects typically have. Many of Frank Loyd Wright's famous buildings are falling down due to poor engineering.
That's why architects and engineers have to work together as a team.
I thought the work of the former caused the latter to pull their hair out in frusteration.
In most cases, the engineer is hired by the architect and works under the architect's supervision. However, both engineers and architects are required to be licensed by the state after many years of education, work experience and a vigorous exam -- a process not unlike what doctors and lawyers go through -- and the engineer will put his stamp on the structural drawings and the architect will stamp the architectural drawings. Thus, they're each legally liable for what they produce, with the architect typically assuming liability for the project as a whole. In addition, the drawings are not only reviewed and approved by public officials before a construction permit is issued, but structural drawings are typically peer-reviewed by another engineer with no connection to the project.
Sometimes the architect and engineer will have conflicting objectives, but unless they work together to resolve these issues, the building will never get built. Ever wonder why it's so rare to read about a sponaneous building collapse in the news? There's a reason for that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
So in the event of a lawsuit is the supervising architect ultimately liable for the whole thing - ie is the engineer under him covered by the architect's malpractice or liability insurance?
The legal side of the profession is a bit outside my area of expertise, so I'm probably not the best person to answer. My guess is that each case would be unique, although I know engineers typically have their own malpractice insurance. If, for example, the building suffered a catastrophic structural failure without some "trigger" event (i.e., a fire or a plane flying into it), I'm sure there'd be enough blame to go around and the plaintiff's lawyers would go after anybody they could get their hands on.
In a more likely scenario, let's say the building turns out to have a leaky roof. Chances are the structural engineer wouldn't be involved, but the architect and the contractor would have to duke it out in court to determine who is liable.
-- David
Chicago, IL
If, for example, the building suffered a catastrophic structural failure without some "trigger" event (i.e., a fire or a plane flying into it), I'm sure there'd be enough blame to go around and the plaintiff's lawyers would go after anybody they could get their hands on.
I strongly suspect that we'll soon be seeing plenty of WTC-related lawsuits* despite there having been "triggering events."
* = as of a few weeks ago, almost no one had signed up for the government's settlement plan, participation in which requires relinquishment of the right to sue.
OK, I'm a fool.
My friend is becomming an architext and we have had fun with the apparent architect-engineer rivalery. The basic joke is that to eachother Architects are artistic fools and Engineers are unimaginative utilitarian crumudgeons.
Most architects and engineers work very well together, and they recognize what they each bring to the table. Most engineers couldn't care less what color the brick is, and most architects would rather vomit than figure out complex structural equations. That's why they need each other. That said, there's usually plenty of friendly rivalry between the two disciplines. But it's nothing compared to what architects and contractors typically say about each other. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
But it's nothing compared to what architects and contractors typically say about each other. :-)
"Hey you lazy bums, get to work! AND WHAT IS A TOILET DOING NEXT TO THE REFRIGERATOR?!"
My house has a bathroom located in the breakfast room, next to the kitchen. I like it.
An amusing aside here - my middle school had a classroom with a bunch of floor to ceiling, solid wood panel type doors leading to a coatrack space behind in it one classroom. All next to each other, so it just looked like wall with wood paneling when closed.
Somehow, for some reason, at some point, a bathroom managed to appear behind one. I suspect this was an attept at duscouraging bathroom 'use' via polacing it where the kid can hear the lecture, and the teacher could see said kid was actually going to take a dump, not smoke weed or make calls or whatever...
Naturally, the doors had no idication which was the bathroom.
Naturally, a person using the bathroom was always giggle inducing.
And yes, someone once opened the (wrong) door to put their coat in, and naturally, the result was rather embaressing and funny for everyone...
Sometimes, what looks good on paper.... Well, anyway, it was a bad idea.
Hey, mechanical engineers design weapon systems....
.....Civil engineers design targets! :)
That must have been a lot of fun. My grade school was a lot more conventional (too bad, because I spent some of that time in braces and casts and could have used a little creativity in the pre-ADA world).
We had an arrangement like that in our grade shcool, but it was only the knidergarten room that had a built in bath. Once you made it to the first grade, it was down the all to the boys (or girls) room.
But that is nothing like an arrangement we have here.
The whole library building was built without a bathroom!
It was desinged and built by monks, but it was not planed to be a stand alone building, but rather the first wing of a building that was supposed to have a center and another wing. The plumbing, (and the extra staircse) was supposed to be in the next part of the building. Of course having described this construction so far, it cannot possibly come as a surprize to you that the rest of the building was never built.
In the days of old before fire and building codes came to the state of North Dakota.... It had only one stairway. A second sort of shabby stairway was built when a differnet additon to this building was built. And then we tore that addition down but as 'Fire Warden' I told them that the stairway had to stay and could not be demolished, as they had planned to do. So a contractor was hired to finish off a building around the stairway... etc etc.
Lets get back on topic... My Trains are on the Third Floor of that building.!
Elias
A bathroom-off-the-classroom arrangement of that sort figured prominently in a South Park episode ("What did you do in there, Kenny, slaughter a cow?")
Okay, I'll jump in with another bathroom story...
There's a fairly large office building in London, with a public men's room located just off a busy corridor. The men's room is laid out in such a way that whenever the door to this men's room is opened, people in the hallway are treated to a spectacular view of the urinals along the wall, as well as whoever happens to be using them at the time.
The building? The headquarters of the Royal Institute of British Architects.
Apparently a small privacy screen has since been installed just inside the doorway.
-- David
Chicago, IL
HEHE, damn Architects, (alright i'm a thick-rimmed-glass-and-pocket protector-wearing-engineer-to-be, mechnical, and/or electrical no less)
All the bathrooms in my high school were like that, some affording a quite panoramic view. However I suspect that there was no architect for my school, just the guy that designed Amshacks, this is clearly what he did about 1969 or so, built cheap public works projects. Damn am I glad to be rid of that dark, smelly pit. Apparantly the engineer was no good too, for all the topsoil was scraped clear of the site, so all the school could sit on one level of grass, today different wings of the school are sinking into the gound at different rates, pulling and stressing the building, while nothing will grow on the athletic field because it's just dirt, no nutrients in the soil. Mr Cole, if you ever do a high school, or such a thing, I beg of you to not be a jack!@#, the tempation may be great, and indeed may come with the job, but please resist, and turn out something of worth, that the students may just enjoy.
Back in 1980, my friend Upstate was renting an old 11 room house northwest of Syracuse, which had a bathroom in the little entry port area between the back door and the kitchen. Because it gets so @#$@#$#@ cold northwest of Syracuse in the winter, and because 1980 was when oil and gas prices when through the roof becuase of the Iranian hostage crisis, he shut off heat to seven of the 11 rooms to save money, including the room next to the front entrance of the house.
So when the 1980 U.S. Census arrives, he gets the long form, which included the question "Through what room do you enter your house." I'm sure the people down in D.C. had a good laugh when the answer "bathroom" came back on the form.
Efficienct use of space...
Frank Lloyd Wright is an exception, rather than the rule. For a better comparison, look at architects like Norman Foster and Santiago Calatrava, who are trained as both architects and engineers, and who put their skills in each discipline to full use. Even so, Wright's engineering ideas were generally sound, but sometimes flawed in execution. The ravages of time and neglect have also taken their toll on his buildings.
For the record, I've been studying bridges and skyscrapers probably for about as long as AEM7 has been alive. I've got a wall full of books and journals about building technology, and I refer to them often. I can look at any structural system and, most likely, tell you exactly which members are in compression, which are in tension, and which are in torsion. I'm still completing my formal education, but I've been working for architects on complicated projects for over six years now, and during that time I've worked very closely with structural engineers, civil engineers, MEP engineers, interior designers, project clients, lighting consultants, acoustic consultants, and building code officials, and I greatly respect all their skills and knowledge. I've produced construction documents for a wide variety of projects, including office buildings and transit stations. Not to brag or anything, but I think AEM7 is barking up the wrong tree when it comes to structures and building technology.
If there are any structural engineers here on SubTalk, I'm sure they'd concur with my statements. (If they don't, then I'll happily stand corrected and defer to their judgement.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
A Budd built railcar would have bounced or glanced off the pillar. I mean bounced in the sence that the rigidity of the bodyshell would have prevented the car from sticking into the pillar and the momentum of the car would have carried the rear around in an arc. Try it with a broom handle on your kitchen floor.
I seriously doubt that. We all know that in a collision between a car and a train, the train always wins. Likewise, in a collision between a vehicle and a huge thick hunk of reinforced concrete, the concrete will always win. (An exception might be made for when a ship or barge hits a bridge pillar, but in those cases you're talking about massive inertial forces that would never be encountered on any railroad or highway.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I seriously doubt that. We all know that in a collision between a car and a train, the train always wins.
Correction. In a collision between a car and an FRA Part 146 certified train, the train always wins. Not so in Europe, where the trains are not FRA Part 146 certified.
AEM7
Are you really that much of an idiot?
Yes, actually he is, Dave. He's emonstrated time and time again he has no clue what he's talking about when it comes to design of anything. It's a hopeless cause trying to explain reality to him....
He's produced more data refuting your claims than you have refuting his.
I would agree with your bias toward MUs, certainly. I liked what Budd Co. tried to do with the original Metroliner, even if it didn't work perfectly.
A reasonable compromise is a bidirectional train with power cars at either end and trailers in between - Acela.
So you're telling me that if we re-built the Ben Franklin Bridge with modern materials using the same design it woudln't be stronger than the original BFB?
Funny, european RRs move tens, if not hundreds of times more people than all of Amtrak. European rail equipment is on average 2 to 3 times more powerful tyhan Us equopment, it's often 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost, it's 2 times as reliable, it's significant'ly cheaper to run.
Passenger travel is only a small part of Railroads. The european freight system is a total shambles. Aside from HST's, european electric locomotives are all in the 6000-8000hp range, comperable to American electric locomotives, which, DUH, are European. How can something be more powerful than itself? In terms of diesel locomotion GE and EMD are FAR ahead of Europe in power and technology? Why do you think the EMD Class 66 is so popular over there? The class 66 is more relyable and CHEAPER than comprable europen diesel locmotives. The most powerful European diesel locomotives are around 3000hp while ours are 6000hp. \
You obviously havbe no clue what you're talking about. please stop now before you make yourself look like an even bigger idiot.
Do you deny that the max car width in the UK in 9 feet and that their standard rail weight is 115 pounds per yard? Do you deny that the max car width in France is 9'5" with a max verticle clearance of 13 feet?
And the TGV, in a nearly identical accident - zero
When did the TGV hit a trailer loaded with 25 tonnes of steel re-bar?
In fact, Eurpoe has many unprotected grade crossings. probbably more than the US.
I can only speak for the UK, but ALL crossings have some sort of protection. Any remotely busy crossing not only has lights and gates but real time CCTV monitoring. On branch lines out in Wales, farmers need to pick up a phone and call the dispatcher for him to UNLOCK the crossing gates just to get to their fields accross the tracks. When I was in France, the non-HSR main lines w/ c. 80mph speeds have very very few grade crossings. In this country you'll see 12 crossings within a mile on 80 mph track.
love how you always whine and moan about underinvestment in railways, but think investing is actual signal systems is a waste.
I realize that no signaling system is 100% effective and when that accident does occur a lot of people are going to die if you build your vehicles out of plastic. I also am smart enough to realize that the marginal benefits of signaling gimics beyond coded track circut cab signals are not worth the marginal costs.
That's with lowers costs, higher acceleration, and significantly better braking than anything on Amtrak's roster, period.
So, a Ford Econovan has lowers costs, higher acceleration, and significantly better braking than anything on Amtrak's roster. It dosen't mean I want to put it on the rails.
You really are a total idiot, aren't you? Do you even understand any basic concepts behind the design of anything?
Sure I do, the more I-beams the better. When you use engineering gimics to skim on weight or materials you risk critical failure under extreme situations. I also know enough not to get into something that's just a loose truss frame with a flimsey body shell taped onto it.
The US isn't full of rabid foaming railfans that pop a woody at the sight of 2 P-42's struggling to pull a 12 car train up a 1% grade at a whopping 40mph. People want to go A to B, today, not next month.
I don't know where you get your numbers from. 2 P42's can pull at least 8 cars and 20+ mail, express and roadrailer cars up a 1.86% grade at 45 mph.
People want to go A to B, today, not next month.
With impending meltdowns in both air and road travel people will be plenty happy to get their next month.
Because the performance of a locomotive hauled train is so dismal, passengers don't want to ride it. the acceleration of Amtrak's much flaunted P-40's and P-42s is a sad joke at best, and a sadder reflection of our lack of any ability to design passenger equipment at worst.
Well they should have kept the F40's or bought F59's. Just because GE makes crap dosen't mean locomotive hauled trains are bad.
A 3 car Flexiliner Vs a P-42 and 3 Amfleets is:
More moise
Less Legroom
Crappy Ride
3x the possibility of an "Out of Service" failure since trainsets can't be uncoupled appart.
That's why passenger locomotive orders havew been declining, and MU orders are soaring.
Where? NJT has given up on MU's and most other commuter agencies have gone completely with push pull trainsets. MU's simply have more shit that can go wrong with them and require more skilled labour to maintain and fix. The only reason htey buy MU's is because they have low labour costs or a government funded system where costs don't matter.
Amtrak's future is going to be competing in terms of superrior comfort at a reasonable speed. Amtrak will offer lavish riding conditions and a stress free environment with no traffic jams, security lines or baggage check-ins. People will gladly budget a few extra travel house just to cut out the crap and get some circulation in their legs.
So you're telling me that if we re-built the Ben Franklin Bridge with modern materials using the same design it woudln't be stronger than the original BFB?
It's too bad you don't go to an engineering school. That way you could take a Strength of Materials class to understand the stuff you talk about.
It's impossible to rebuild the Ben Franklin Bridge with modern materials and have the same design. The steel and concrete of yesterday have different propties than the steel and concrete of today. Properties like shear stress, tensile stress, thermo stress, strain and deformation. Because of all this, the trusses, and other things would have to be placeed in different areas, and it probably would use much less resources than the current bridge.
Sure I do, the more I-beams the better. When you use engineering gimics to skim on weight or materials you risk critical failure under extreme situations. I also know enough not to get into something that's just a loose truss frame with a flimsey body shell taped onto it.
There is no such thing as engineering gimmicks. Everthing we do has been tested and proven many times. It's called "research". More I-beams is NOT better. I-beams have mass, thus have weight. If you have too many I beams, then the structure would weigh too much to hold anything other than itself. The arrangment of I-beams add much more strength than just adding more beams. A triangle has one less beam than a square, so the square must be stronger, huh? Nope, the triangle is the strongest shape known to man.
PS, I didn't forget about the in between car MARTA shots you want. I've been buiser than a Times Square hooker. But I'll probably have some time tomorrow to do it.
"Nope, the triangle is the strongest shape known to man. "
Compared to an arch? A tube, or a sphere?
D'oh, you're right. They slipped my mind. But you prove my point again, an arch uses one beam and is stronger (technically a bunch of beams wielded together), versus a triangle which has more beams.
Your point was certainly a good one.
I still remember the egg-shell weight experiment from grade school...
The real reason for NJT going away from MU's isn't just complication, but a rational approach to the FRA rule that considers every MU a locomotive and applies inspections accordingly. It's a cost consious decision. 1 locomotive and 1 cab car and 8 or 9 coaches is a lot less paperwork-complicated than 11 MU's.
Correct. As a rider, I prefer MUs for commuter rail because they're frequewntly set up more comfortably and can run a faster schedule. But if a particular agency finds maintenance easier on push-pull consists, fine.
Both SEPTA and NJ Transit run push-pull and MUs on the same lines.
And slow boys. Fright and passenger trains aren't supposed to be on the same ROW. Like on the norther extream of the New HAven branch CSX has it own track that MNRR trains never run on.
That's an industrial track. The freights are not it not for safety, but because they need time to preform lo-speed switching moves. BTW that track used to be track 4 of the NH main and the wire is still above it in case the track ever needs to be re-activated.
Good planing. Anyway Why did the build Milford so that it blocks one of the Track spaces?
Another clueless "flimsy train advocate" at work here. Phil, and David Cole, and anyone else who thinks the FRA should approve of flimsy European shite, the only thing I can say to ya is go live over there (with a commute) for a couple years and see if you want to sit in one of these flimsy pieces of shit day in and day out... safety or not, the FRA standards are not just about safety. It's about building proper equipment.
Actually, I have been to Europe and ridden the trains there. You don't know shit about me.
I'm not advocating "flimsy" trains. Rather, I'm advocating a pro-active safety system that focuses on preventing accidents in the first place, rather than merely mandating Sherman tanks on the rails with the assumption that they will get into an accident. Many of the FRA's regulations are akin to mandating that everybody drive Ford Excursions on unsafe roads rather than improving the roads themselves.
I think the nearly-flawless safety record of both the French TGV and the Japanese bullet trains speaks for itself.
-- David
Chicago, IL
On American RR's we have mega large freight trains that like to de-rail for the hell of it. We have weather conditions that make rail buckle and track washouts the norm. We have 200,000 grade crossings and a limitless supply of morons who think they can beat trains. There is no way on earth to eliminate these dangers in a "proactive" way short of spending billions and billions of dollars. Dollars that could go to actually funding more transit. In the Shelby UK accident 12 died cause a train hit a Land Rover on the tracks. Amtrak has a grade crossing accident (usually stuff like lumber trucks or big rig tractor-trailers) every couple of weeks and how many people die from those? ZERO. An Amtrak P42 could eat a Land Rover for lunch and spit a cube of scrap metal. In Europe its 12 dead. In the United States, true preventable accidents are exceedingly rare. Proactive measures would do little or nothing for rail safety.
I can certainly appreciate your intent, Dave, but the TGV and Shinkansen do not represent the majority of train service in either Europe or Japan. The French and Japanese do invest more in rail resources than we do on a per-capita basis, but the lavish attention they pay to a few bullet train and TGV routes is not matched on the rest of the infrastructure. The rest of the lines vary from OK to ridiculously deficient. A German couple traveling with me on a Superliner cross-country once told me that Amtrak's service was far better than anything Deutche Bundesbahn had to offer.
Jersey Mike is correct when he points out just how much crap US passenger lines have to put up with compared to European ones.
And how little respect US motorists pay to RR crossings (compared with what happens in Europe). For example, after a fatal crash at an LIRR crossing, a sports car roared up the street, zig-zagged around Suffolk County and MTA police cars and ambulances with their rooflights and wig-wags on, and then continued around lowered crossing gates; the LIRR train trying to negotiate the crossing just barely missed creaming him. The Suffolk cops were stunned.
So the FRA approach is pragmatic. It's what works better in this country.
Yup, when I was in France, once you got off the hi-speed lines it was just like it was in this country. The line from Marcailles to Nice was just like the Shore Line only w/ more tunnels. Even the TGV went 60-80 mph on it. When we decided to cut through the mountains via Aix-en-Provence the line was 45-60 mph with jointed rail (in Europe they don't stagger the joints so its a BUMP--------BUMP-------BUMP). THe neat thing about europe was that there was a lot of service and it went everywhere. It was like a national commuter rail system w/ hour headways. However, there was very little rail freight, and truck traffic is becomming a severe problem in Europe (especially w/ all those spectacular tunnel crashes/fires they are having). It makes you think what our priorities should be in terms of the environment and highway congestion. THe arguement does exist that intermotal truck/container transport is more important than passenger rail service for both afformentioned issues. SO, if billions are to be spent on rail travel, what would make sence? An HSR dedicated RoW Or re-opening a greater number of previously abandonned classic rail lines for new rail freight oppurtunities that could also host traditional passenger rail lines.
Now there's somebody talking sense...!
AEM7
Install baricades that have reinforced rebared concrete instead of wood. I have seen crossings where a car crashed into a gate 40 mph and it didn't go on the tracks.
Could that not be fatal to the driver (ie gate arm coming through the windshield?)
I think the nearly-flawless safety record of both the French TGV and the Japanese bullet trains speaks for itself.
Bingo. They've shown that a 'system' approach to safety beats the FRA's passive approach.
The simple fact is, the TGV's derailment and collision performance speaks for itself - it's a train that time and time again has provided a better level of passenger safety in derailmemts than US style equipment.
"Bingo. They've shown that a 'system' approach to safety beats the FRA's passive approach. "
Only i you have the money and time and political support to install that kind of high-value right of way. Outside the TGV corridor, trains don't work quite as well - and their safety record is much worse than Amtrak's.
"The simple fact is, the TGV's derailment and collision performance speaks for itself - it's a train that time and time again has provided a better level of passenger safety in derailmemts than US style equipment."
Not true, and you have little or nothing to back that up.
Now, I do agree that the TGV works better than Acela, in general. But Acela can still be improved within the current context of the Northeast Corridor. It's a political question, not a technical one.
Not true, and you have little or nothing to back that up.
Compaire the City of New orleans accident with a nearly identical collision (truck stuck on crossing with 40 ton paving machine on it) with the TGV. Nearly identical collision speeds (80mph in both cases).
Amtrak - 15 dead, flipped cars everywhere.
TGV - 0 dead, train stays upright and inline.
It's interesting - the GE locomotive's carbody design that did perform exceptionally in the Amtrak accident? Oh yes - it happened to have been designed by a European firm for GE. It did exactly what it was engineered to do - absorb energy, yet protect the crew. I believe it was physically deformed after the accident - no doubt it absorbed a lot of energy. Had the cars behind it managed their energy properaly, and stayed in line, the accident would likely have been back page news.
That's the whole damm point of energy management. You can't keep putting it elsewhere - you have to convert it to heat and structural distortion.
Auto manufacturers figured this out decades ago, which is why even high speed accidents are more surviveable now than they've ever been.
Compaire the City of New orleans accident with a nearly identical collision (truck stuck on crossing with 40 ton paving machine on it) with the TGV. Nearly identical collision speeds (80mph in both cases).
You failed to mention the fact that on the City of New Orleans accident, there was a bunch of gons parked nearby which was struck by one of the train. You also failed to mention that the 15 deaths were not caused by crushing injuries but by a fire that erupted after the crash, mostly from smoke inhalation in a sleeper car. You also failed to mention the European-designed GE carbody absorbed so much energy that the fuel tank ruptured and then sprayed all over the Superliner causing the fire. You also failed to mention that the GE Genesis is a diesel locomotive and the TGV was electric, and thus the TGV was less likely to catch fire. You also neglected to mention that had the GE been electric, the line would have needed to have been electrified which would have meant the line would have cost some 200% more.
The kind of energies you have to "absorb" in a train accident is simply not possible with a crumple zone. European mandates are around 2MJ per end per railcar. You can work out for yourself what sort of speed you can go at to ensure that in all collision scenarios the energy can be guarenteed to be absorbed by the 2MJ/coach crumple zones. Let me clue you in on this, since you obviously don't have a clue: conventional automobiles weigh about 2 tons and have crumple zones designed to absorb 1MJ. European railcars weighs 40 tons and have crumple zones designed to absorb a total of 4MJ (fore and aft).
Do you have a clue?
AEM7
It was 11 dead and most if not all of those people died of FIRE, not impact. I also don't remember a TGV striking a trailer loaded with 25 tonnes of steel Rebar. There is a HUGE differance between a simple derailment and a collission with an object that ramps the rail vehicles completely out of the 4-foot. A flat deraiment where the train slowly grinds to a halt on the balast is completely different than a collission that decellerates the moving train at a much higher rate.
Also go and look at the pictures. Were any of the Superliners ripped appart, bent in half or otherwise crumpled? They might of tipped over, but they remained intact and slid to a safe stop on their sides. Aside from falling into a body of water, failure of the body shell is the most deadly thing that can happen to a passenger vehicle.
"Compaire the City of New orleans accident with a nearly identical collision (truck stuck on crossing with 40 ton paving machine on it) with the TGV. Nearly identical collision speeds (80mph in both cases). "
Invalid comparison - but you already knew that before you typed your post. The City of New Orleans Accident should be compared to what happened in non-TGV services in Europe - see Jersey Mike's post. 15 dead on Amtrak vs. many more in Europe.
A valid comparison would be a TGV accident vs. an Acela accident.
As to your comments regarding Amtrak locomotive performance, certainly I will give European designers some credit. Your point is well taken. I think, though that you make too much of it.
The RegioShuttle (first photo) would be ideal for short lines such as Boston's Fairmount commuter line or between Hartford and New Britain on the former ROW that ConnDOT is looking to convert to a busway. The triangular windows are an unusual feature. In trains of two or more cars, passengers can not pass from one car to the next, so you would have to have outside fare control or a proof-of-payment system on the trains, not a big deal. Unfortunately, since the RegioShuttle(popular on many private German passenger railroads) was built by ADtranz, which was taken over by Bombardier, I don't know if Bombardier still makes the RegioShuttle. I haven't seen it on Bombardier's web site.
The Flexliner (second photo) would be ideal for longer lines and for trains that need to be split up. It runs in Denmark, Sweden and Israel. The Flexliner would be perfect for Hartford-Springfield through service to Washington. ADtranz made both diesel and electric versions and both could run in the same train. The cab window swings open to allow riders to walk in between coupled cars. Amtrak tested Flexliners on mainline American rails from 1996 to 1998. Too bad they couldn't buy them because they would work very well on lines such as Hartford-Springfield, where they used to split trains up at New Haven and it took forever having to switch trains in and out. And now with the Shoreline electrified all the way to Boston, Hartford-Springfield service has been reduced to two-car push-pull service. What a waste of perfectly good P42 diesels that could be hauling longer trains elsewhere. Flexliners would solve all of these problems. The question is, does Bombardier still make the Flexliners after acquiring ADtranz? Like the RegioShuttle, it's not on their website.
As for the Oresund (third photo), that is a fairly new EMU that runs between Denmark and Sweden on the new Oresund bridge. It kind of looks like the Flexliner (may be a newer version), and requires catenary (unless they make a diesel version, hopefully) and I'm not sure if it has all of the older Flexliner features. Bombardier does show the Oresund on their website and acquired it with ADtranz.
But there are other good DMUs out there too. They include Bombardier's Talent, Alstom's LINT and Siemens's Desiro. I'm sure there are also Japanese companies that build DMU's as well (Kawasaki, Kinki-Sharyo maybe?) Even the Colorado Railcar Company is planning to build a DMU. Phil, I have to agree with you. We should be looking into DMU's. Trains of five cars or less should run with self-propelled cars.
A few questions:
1. What exactly is a TGV?
2. What exactly is a DMU?
3. Why don't they allow you to pass between cars in Europe?
- Lyle Goldman
TGV means "Tren Grand Vitesse" in French. I think it translates to Train of Great Velocity in English.
DMU = Diesel Multiple Units (think of a string of M1s with synchronized diesel engines instead of third rail electric power).
TGV means "tres grand vitesse". VERY great speed.
Thank you.
1. What exactly is a TGV?
It is a "Train à Grande Vitesse" - the exact French Translation of HST (High Speed Train).
2. What exactly is a DMU?
Diesel Multiple Unit. One of those trains without a separate loco, but powered by Diesel.
3. Why don't they allow you to pass between cars in Europe?
Where in Europe was this? I can't recall being on any train in Europe where you couldn't pass between cars.
Jersey Mike said that some of the new European DMU cars didn't allow passing through cars. He was responding to Philip's comment that the modern German DMU cars would be ideal. His exact words were "Due to no passing through they need a ticket collector in each car. This is how it works in the new UK DMU's. Same w/ food service, if any." Why can't you pass between cars?
- Lyle Goldman
Its getting late here so I am going to hold the SEPTA Regional Rail Field Trip either this Friday or next Friday, depending on who, if anybody can make it. The default date will be next Friday. Please reply or e-mail me of you can make on any of those dates. The Trip will include an R3 ride to West Trenton and then either an R2 trip to Wilmington or an R3 trip to Media or an R5 trip to Paoli maybe depending on popular demand and maybe with a BSS ride from Fern Rock thrown in for good measure. Estimated kick off time would be from 9-10AM at Market East.
How does a brake test work? I assume the FRA requires it on all FRA railroads.
You Drive the Train and Put the Brakes on to see if they are reliable for service, Duh!
Hey, i heard your going to be out of the job next week
Ok thanks for the answer.
I was kidding, I think that's the way they do the brake test.
The Acela will never DIE!! ACELA 4EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have to do a brake test before you even move the train. So how can you do it your way?
I cannot answer the FRA portion of "brake tests".
But with the NYCTA, the T/O performs 3 brake tests.
1) Standing brake test: The T/O releases the brakes (while in the station, start of a put-in, etc.) from 80 lbs. straight air pressure down to about 20 lbs. and looks for a continuous release. Then goes back to full service and manipulates the valve downward in 3 equal amounts (80 lbs, 60 lbs, 40 lbs, then 20 lbs approx.) and looks for a smooth, continuous release.
2) Rolling brake test: The T/O after completely releasing the brakes takes 1 point of power to about 2-3 mph then coasts. This is to make sure that the train is rolling free and that there are no unwanted brakes applied (drag).
3) Running brake test: After performing the above 2 tests and upon reaching a minimum speed of 15 mph, the T/O places the controller in coast and takes a small brake. After the brakes apply for a moment, the T/O releases them and begins normal operation. This is to ensure that the electric brake (B2) is operating normally.
B2 test is the second part of the standing brake test.
#3 is the Dynamic brake test.
You're right. I typed it wrong. I meant to say dynamic, but for some reason I wrote B2.
Ugh.
I guess you heard, the only exam in the next fiscal in RTO is Towers.
So I know when you are my boss, how do you like your coffee or are you a pepsi person?
Twinings Tea for me thank you. Irish Breakfast flavour preferred but Earl Grey or English Breakfast will do very nicely.
Get me that Celestial Seasonings drivel and thou shalt never see thy dropped trippeth.
Har har har
Wow ... things have changed. Aside from that horrid Savarin crap at Stillwell, someone in the crew room would put out "Morning Thunder" years ago. That stuff was better than coffee for determining if it was an automatic or a homeball ahead. :)
I haven't heard anything as far as next year's tests go, but I've heard rumors (and only rumors) that there will be a TSS test next year.
I do have the latest copy of The Chief with me and it doesn't mention anything about next year's tests. Nor have the prior few copies.
Do you know something that I don't?
The Chief is a rag.
Maybe I missed something but just Towers in August and lots of Maintenance Supervisor spots also Collections and Stations Supervisors over the next year.
Its on the civil service website. The Only exam was Tower Operator for RTO.
Man, no MOTOR FLASHING anymore? Back in the old days, that was a piece of the standing as well - brakes in full service, give it a notch to make sure it DOESN'T roll ... man, you guys have it easy. :)
And I think you meant "dynamic" when you said "B2" ... but that's the procedure as my hazy mind remembers except for trying to take out the substation so you could ABD. Heh.
Now you do that on layups. Put on some HB take a point to see if you have sufficient
For the same reason that you do what you do today, one of the problems with Arnines (bit ME on the butt and cost me MY job) is that they'd spontaneously release owing to a pipe failure. So the rule with R1/9's and R10's was flash 'em when you boarded to make sure that you'd HAVE brakes when you needed 'em. The SMEE's weren't susceptible to that problem. We were also required to apply at least TWO parking brakes (the hard way) for the same reasons - "now you've got it, maybe now you don't" ...
But yeah, we used to do that before takeoff ... EVERY run ...
So that really was a butt plug you guys carried. You stick it up there so you won't foul yourself when the brakes fail.
Heh. Hey, they didn't HAVE Depends in my day. (grin) Actually, there was a round electrical box on the controller stand - it went in there. It was funny too ... most of the folks in my own school car, having seen that for the first time, what looked like a cartridge fuse with a brass CHAIN on it scared the phook out of them ... and the train would have INTERESTING braking if you forgot to insert it.
For the uninitiated, it was officially termed the "electric brake plug" but old timers referred to it as the "butt plug" ... I never really wanted to know where the term came from. :)
The R-10 was SMEE.
Whoops. Right you are ... believe it or not, never worked an R10 ... but I know the procedures applied to those as well ...
Acela: Perhaps you ought to try to establish some credibility before you begin to attempt humor at the expense of other people's serious questions.
The LIRR covers the brake test in its rules and in the "THEM" (train handling & equipment manual) manual. Its required before a train is operated. In general, the barkeman (now called an assistant conductor) gives the engineer a series of commands via buzzer. The engineer applies, releases, dumps and recharges the brakes in accordance to those signals. In this way the crew determines that application, release, emergency and charging functions are functioning trainline. Any deviation and the train doesn't go. The brake test is mandated by FRA rules.
I was on a trip (well it went 6 ft) when they remembered they hadn't done the brake test. Opps...
So we sat through the buzzing..and then continued
I can't fathom how you'd forget to do that. Apparently we had a motorperson there that's never had a surprise ... all it takes is one surprise to get religion ... :)
We left, ran 6 feet, stopped and then "GO CHANNEL __" that intercom channel. Then ye old buzzing started.
Must of been a bad day.
Heh. The Wicked Witch of school car slaps thee with a herring. :)
The communication line signal is four short whistles or buzzes for the engineer to apply brakes or release brakes if already applied. You can also give hand/lantern signals. Apply brakes is waving your arm or lantern back and forth over your head. Release brakes is holding the arm or lantern steady to the abobe and to the right of your head.
Not sure about FRA, but in NYCT, you lightly add power and then you let the train roll. The movement must be unrestricted and smooth to be sure the brakes have been fully released.
The brake test, I think, is required at least when you add cars or let the train sit "bottled up" for more than two hours. Passenger trainsets and MU's might have special regulations. Out in the real railroad, the car is coupled and the air hoses hooked up. A car inspector or other trainman then observes at least the last car in the train and asks the engineer for a brake application. The engineer applies the brakes and the trainman informs him that he has a good application and then asks for a release. Then trainman then informs the engineer that he has a good release and he's good to go. I am unclear if a brake test involves observing the whole length of the train or just the end cars.
On NJ Transit passenger trains, we have to do brake tests any time we get on equipment for the first time (e.g. the first train we work at the start of our shift) and whenever an engineer changes ends. If the train is sitting at a high level patform, the person conducting the test can rely on the gauges either in the cab car or on the engine, whichever is at the opposite end from where the engineer is. If the train is at a low level platform or in a yard, the person conducting the test can look at the brake shoes at the furthest wheel back from where the engineer is located.
So if a guage is present on the rear end (ie an MU or Control Cab) you can furfill the test by observing the brake cylinder pressure.
Here's an unrelated question. On a push pull or MU are the brake handles removeable when not in use (I think they are). If yes, when the handle is removed does the train go BIE? If yes how are things reset to that when another cab takes control the air won't gush out through the hole where the brake handle used to be.
The handle off position is beyond emergency. There is a detent
which prevents the handle from being whipped past the emergency
position. The valve is in position long enough to vent a small
amount of air from the front of a relay valve piston (the emergency
application valve), which in turn vents the brake pipe. In
handle off, all brake valve ports are blanked. The emergency
application valve completes the venting of the brake valve and then
seats by spring pressure once the brake pipe pressure has fallen
to a few pounds.
That's very clever.
That doesn't sound familiar as a schedule 26L. Emergency should have been the furthermost position on the right side. Handle out is the next position over, allowing full controlled reduction of brake pipe to zero. Emergency is ported for a rapid vent of the brake pipe. Both the Trainline and the ENGINEBRAKE have provisions for cutting out the branchlines when switching ends or changing leading engines into trailing ones when used as powerpacks.
He was asking about MU braking, not locomotives.
(and the ENGINEBRAKE was not lost on me :)
They also need to rely on the application and release lights. Since the application circuit is a series circuit, if brakes do not apply on one car you will not get the APP light. Since the release circuit is a parallel circuit, if one truck holds a brake, you will not get the release light.
And that is why when doing undercar you check the brake control system with a 'gimmick light' for application, release and you check the #5 wire to see that the system works the transition at about 15 PSI from pneumatic to dynamic braking in the static tests. I hope the next generation of Car inspectors are 'up to snuff.' NYCTA isn't 'Lionel' but a real railroad!!! CI Peter
You are mostly testing the continuity of the brake line.
So the rear end asks the front end for applications and realeases, and if the air works all the way to the back of the train, then it works. An individual car may fail, but the train as a whole is working.
Would an angle cock be set wrong, or a valve open the test would not work and the tran cannot be moved, because the brakes would not be working. A point by point inspection of the whole train would then be required.
Out here FRED will tell you if you are getting braking all the way to the end of your train.
Elias
Do you need to run a visual test with an EOT device or will the cab readout suffice?
"Do you need to run a visual test with an EOT device or will the cab readout suffice?"
HMmmm... I do have the brake rule book in my room, I'll take it out and look at it, but on a freight train, you do need the FRED, a conductor in a caboose, or some other way to be sure that the entire brake line is opeerating properly. Otherwise you will run your GG1 into the basement in Washington.
Fred will let you know if he doesn't get air or relase correctly.
Som FREDS even have a radio controled valve so that a brake pipe application can be initiated at the rear end of the train, just as if there were a caboose back there. Nice thing to have with a mile long train.
Elias
My question was if observing the cab readout of the EOT brake pipe pressure would suffice for a brake test or of a human would need to go back to the last car and verify it onsite.
Reading the EOT device will suffice. You do not go back to the end of the train to look at it.
Indeed, I was even aboard an BN locomotive, and the engineer showed me how he was doing the brake test.
Elias
Well, Amtrak apparently did do better today with the Bush Administration than Yassir Arafat did, but the story says the system may still run out of money by the second week of July unless a deal in reached.
*** By LAURENCE ARNOLD
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta
expressed confidence Monday that the nation's passenger rail
system will not be shut down this week, but he offered no
immediate solution to Amtrak's financial problems.
Breaking from an emergency meeting of Amtrak's board of
directors, Mineta said a solution will require both a cut in
Amtrak's expenses and federal financial help.
"I am confident that we will be able to avoid a shutdown of
services," Mineta said. "We have much more work to do but we will
continue to work on an effective solution."
Amtrak President David Gunn and board Chairman John Robert
Smith welcomed Mineta's pledge but said it does not prevent the
first systemwide shutdown in the railroad's 31-year history, only
delays it.
"There has been no reconciliation of the simple fact that
Amtrak is running out of cash and (there is) no agreement on how
to provide a loan guarantee or appropriation that will continue
train service to the end of the fiscal year," the Amtrak
officials said.
There was no word late Monday on the status of the
closed-door meeting, but officials had said earlier the session
could end without an announcement on any action.
Gunn said last week that Amtrak needs about $75 million a
month to operate, but he planned to spend the railroad's last $40
million on an orderly shutdown that would begin as early as this
week.
Since its inception 31 years ago, Amtrak has received more
than $25 billion in federal funds for operations and capital
expenditures. This year, the railroad is receiving $521 million
from the federal government.
The Amtrak statement suggests that the railroad may be able
to operate for another week or two while officials continue to
work with the administration and Congress for a solution. Given
Mineta's pledge, Amtrak may feel confident enough to spend the
$40 million on normal operations.
Mineta said the administration and Amtrak will work with
Congress to make sure passenger rail service continues. He said
the administration should not bear the responsibility alone for
Amtrak's problems.
"This must be a team effort," he said. "The burden is not
on the administration to save the rail system from bankruptcy,
nor should it be."
But Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., disagreed. "The shutdown of
the system, quite frankly, is in the president's hands right
now," he said. "I hope he acts responsibly."
Amtrak has a standing line of credit that normally can help
it get through the final months of a fiscal year. This year,
however, Amtrak has had trouble tapping its line of credit
because lenders are unsure how long it will remain in business.
Amtrak last Monday applied for a loan guarantee from the
Federal Railroad Administration, a part of the Transportation
Department. But Mineta has said the application is difficult to
approve because Amtrak has borrowed heavily against its assets in
recent years.
If the railroad administration were to rule that Amtrak
does not qualify for a loan guarantee, the only options would be
a congressional appropriation or an order by lawmakers that the
agency grant one.
Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., chairman of the Senate
Appropriations Committee, spoke Monday with Gunn and Mineta about
an emergency funding package to keep Amtrak running.
Byrd is insisting that help for Amtrak be part of
negotiations between the Senate and the White House over an
anti-terrorism bill.
"Without Amtrak, the nation's transportation network would
be thrown into disarray. We cannot allow that to occur," Byrd
said.
Earlier Monday, Sen. Robert Torricelli, D-N.J., said Mineta
and President Bush assured him they would help Amtrak weather the
financial crisis.
Torricelli discussed Amtrak with Bush and Mineta on Monday
during a visit by the president to Newnt wants an Amtrak "driven
by sound economics."
Torricelli said he agreed that reform is needed, but "right
now we don't have time to worry about the long term. We have to
worry about people not getting to work on Thursday."
Amtrak trains carry about 60,000 riders per day. About
35,000 of those ride in the Boston-New York-Washington Northeast
Corridor.
A shutdown of Amtrak also could affect commuter railroads
serving hundreds of thousands of people, mostly along the
Atlantic Seaboard.
Amtrak owns tracks and tunnels in the Northeast that are
used by commuter rail services in New Jersey, New York and
Massachusetts. It also operates or maintains commuter railroads
under contracts with state and regional authorities in
California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia and Washington.
Check this out on getting a free ride on the SEPTA Trains:
And I thought NJT was having crowding problems....
LOL!
Do commuters on Bombay India suburban trains also experience free train rides since a s**tload of passengers hang on to door handles?
They have fare barriers, so the platforms are cordoned off before you board.
AEM7
Dude, these are so old. Stop dredging Steve Fineman's archives. We've all seen it.
There might come someday when I can't afford to take Amtrak... that's a handy tip!
>>>We've all seen it.<<<
Speak for yourself. I've never seen them and appreciate his posting of them.
Peace,
ANDEE
Neither have I.
Anyways, that is some stupid s**t...and we all thought NYC Transit Riders knew how to beat fares...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
Maybe you've seen them before, but alot of people on SubTalk haven't, so DUDE you speak for yourself.
There is also the danger that someone might fall out of the train.
Very True!
Whaddahell?! Oy...
Wow, nice railfan seat!
LOL!
Conductor Darwin knows all about that trick,
as he walks by swinging is ticket punch.
If anyone wonders A Division trains will never supplement service on the B Division, now you know!
--Mark
Beats train surfing on the roof. With catenary on SEPTA, he opted for the stepwell.
Bill "Newkirk"
This is so typical of the cheap assholes who live in Philly! This town is nortorious for people who try to beat the system, whether in doing this asinine stunt on SEPTA, or driving without the proper in-surance on their cars. That`s why the SEPTA fares and the insurance rates are so goddamned high, because of "get over" people like that idiot in the photograph.
Here are some things I ponder:
1) Where was the photo taken?
2) Which route of SEPTA is this? (in reference to the photo)
3) Which model train is that? They look almost identical to the Arrow III's.
On NJT Arrows, make sure you do that on the RIGHT SIDE of the car! If you're on the left side, the passengers on the platforms will see you. (Sarcasm of course)
Good thing on Comet IV cars there is a "silver plate" that opens and closes with the side doors that covers the stairwell so you can't do that without getting caught! A good safety feature on these trains.
I'm sorry, but I am unable to view the pictures. Could you please repost them? Thank you.
- Lyle Goldman
Try Again, everyone go saw the Pics.
Actually, the pictures were moved from trainweb.com to trainweb.org for some reason, all of a sudden and without any warning. I don't know whose fault that was.
- Lyle Goldman
go to trainweb.com/railpix
Acela's been taking photos at random from these sites.
Whoops. The URL has changed. The new addresss is http://www.trainweb.org/railpix/.
Mark
my bad.
Why did they move all the pictures from trainweb.com to trainweb.org all of a sudden, without any warning? Don't they realize that all links to those pages would be messed up?
- Lyle Goldman
SubTalk was very Busy Today, 670 Messages was displayed today.
I'm sure you accounted to it with many of your posts that are just as needed as this.
I was home all day and very bored, so I checked up on SubTalk very frequently today.
>>I was home all day and very bored, so I checked up on SubTalk very frequently today<<
Home all day.....very bored ?
Why aren't you riding subway trains like I did when I was your age !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, this stuff cost money, you know! I was broke yesterday.
See that's the problem...when your youngh you have the time but not the money, as you get older you may have the money, but don't have the time.....you can't win.....
as you get older you may have the money, but don't have the time
Hope it is like that.
USE YOUR STUDENT PASS! Wait, too late, tomorrow it expires, oh well! I love this thing, I got out of school June 12, and I've been using this since then. "What are you talking about Officer Jones, I go to Stuy and I get my report card tomorrow!"
Well when I save up for a card reader I can make my own Metro-Card. But only or my self cause the MTA does need money to through down an endless pit (SAS, Bombadier).
You'll never be able to hack it and get it right, the only thing you can do is clone it.
Nevertheless, you WILL get caught.
And his student Metro-Card expired, mine yesterday.
It is now more economical to travel all day on the system with a
"Fun Pass" [$4.00], then when Bill N. & I were youngsters. You
may egress and reenter at your leisure. My day, you bought the
token and stayed within the confines of the system till you went
home. Even if it were 20 cents, that was another 20 cents to reenter.
Even on my excursions on surface transportation to Coney in the
summertime across the borough of Kings, had to connive the driver
of the B-33 for that extra transfer, after boarding with a transfer
from the B-48, so I could board the B-68 and have that extra 15 cents.
Those were interesting expeditions, prior to arriving at Coney.
B-48 [St. Louis ETB], B-33 [GM Diesel] & B-68 [St. Louis PCC].
So it wasn't RT, but most was electrically powered vehicles. >G<
;-) Sparky
>>My day, you bought the
token and stayed within the confines of the system till you went
home.<<
I agree with you. Don't forget in those days, there were pretzel stands or vending machines so we didn't have to leave the system for a bite.
Bill "Newkirk"
Seen em all that are in Queens, Broklyn, Manhatten. Been on LIRR to Port Jefferson, MNRR to New Haven, SIRT, Ferry, Express busses, All of PATH. Next on list, NYCentral, SLE, Boston, NJTransit, MNRR west of hudson service. Acela Express if I save up aLLLot
I suggest you enroll in community activities in your area. During the summer, you should never waste your time when you can do something productive. I live in Edison and have Basketball Camp this week from 9-3, M-F.
Anything of activity will be beneficial.
Sorry for this off-topic post it would be appreciated if it would not be deleted.
I guess you should accept Bill Newkirk's idea on riding subway trains during the day unless if you're confined to your home.
I didn't feel like do anything yesterday anyway, I already know about enrolling in activitys, this summer, on one of those bored days, I'm gonna ride most of the Subway System, my first Line would be the A Line to Far Rockaway, Of course I will not do it in 33 hours like Harry did, I'm gonna take my time.
Today it displayed close to or around 670 also. I think that's the average number of posts daily if I'm not mistaken.
Now it displays 690 Messages!
I'n glad to see that "Sub Talk" is busy. This way many people can exchange their thoughts and ideas.
#3 West End Jeff
SubTalk was slow today. 267 messages posted.
Uh, thanks, you know we can all see that number for ourselves at the top of the index (depending on criteria). The daily report isn't really necessary.
Lol. I wasn't making a daily report. I was just reporting the difference.
I wasn't here over the weekend, so I don't know what happen with SubTalk, or what was going on with the Subways.
I want to videotape the run on the Boonton line east of Walnut St. seeing as how they're going to abandon it in September, and it'd be a lot better if I could get a cab view rather than a side view. Is this possible through official means?
Official meaning other than asking the engineer if you could get to the cab? I know this day in age at least on the new york city subway, getting a cab ride will never happen unless you know the motorman VERY well and he's aware of the risks involved (crazy stuff if you ask me, but hey...security is tight thanks to OBL and his henchmen). Matter of fact, I was on the 4 train yesterday (assuming today is tuesday) on a redbird, cab was wide open, and I take out my camera and turn it on. The motorman must have seen the reflection in his window and nastily told me to "Put that thing away", as you can see even that's a no no...
My dad used to know several LEs on the Main Line, and has gotten to ride in the (control cab) cab both forwards and backwards. Unfortunately, since 9/11 he hasn't gone to NYC so his 'connections' are not be so easy anymore.
Oh well, I can always just ask them to kindly prop open the control cab door so I can shoot from standing in the main car.
Actually, on the Comet IV the cab is actually half width. Therefore, the other half of that area can be considered the vestibule, and possibly an allowed place for passengers to stand?
Most engineers I know who operate from a Comet IV cab car usually feel confined if they close that inside cab door, so that door is usually open and everything inside that vestibule is usually "off limits" to anyone but a crew member or someone qualifying with a "head end pass".
What? You mean train operators and conductors can have visitors in their cabs?
To quote my post, "and he's aware of the risks involved", what would give you the impression that they are allowed?? They aren't!!
I don't know about that abandonment. There is a lot of public pressure against it. It would basically turn Bloomfield into an urban slum as all the remaining professionals who stay in town due to the train, would move. I know someone from Bloomfield who gave me the lo-down and there are all sorts of protests and court actions planned.
The bridges over the various waterways on the line need major repair. The only way NJT would be willing to continue running trains is to get someone else to pay for that. If the town of Bloomfield wants to pay, everyone's happy.
I thought I heard something about another railroad taking over service on the line, but I can't figure out who possibly could.
Oh, to answer your question, you could try hanging out at Hackettstown where the train begins its run and duct tape your camcorder to the front coupler. It could be retrieved at Hoboken.
Yeah, that wouldn't set off anybody's alarm bells... Some guy climbing down onto the trackbed and duct-taping an unidentified small object to the front of a crowded commuter train.
-- David
Chicago, IL
try being a employee. works for me. when i become a Trackworker, all i gotta do is know some engineers. i rode in the cab already and i dont even work for MTA yet, not the word yet.....
Just get a MTA vest and that is your all out access pass to all MTA structures. There was one on the NHRR before the hell gates merges, on a box controls a switch.
That's definitely NOT recommended, especially in the world we're living in now. Criminal impersonation, trespassing, and all that...
David
Bribe a judge or no name official to give you a document that you can show to the police.
This is now off-topic so I'm not going to comment, besides changing the name of the topic so it attracts David Pirmann's attention.
David
here comes the thought PD :)
ever consider it mighta been a joke?
bribery isn't a crime... if it was, why do politicians accept so many? :)
Politicians accept bribes when they're euphemistically called "campaign contributions."
campaign contributions: The surest path to plutocracy.
But hey, if enough people with deep pockets really wanted the Second Avenue subway, it WILL be built.
So remember Subtalkers, your goal is to get rich and give "campaign contributions" to the appropriate politicians to get that damn SAS built.
Now if this thread is deleted, someone can respond to this perfectly on-topic message, but shouldn't since we know where it'll end up.
You could probably coax one of the engineers (if they're generous enough) to do so, but I am very skeptical of having a camcorder while inside.
I heard from someone that NJT tries not to have anybody other than the T/C's, conductor and the engineer inside the engineer's cab.
OR, go to www.ble373.org, the "Brotherhood of Engineers Page". They will probably recognize you as a railfan and try to do it for you. If you see the "Cab Rides" link, this is FANTASTIC! It's sort of like a videotape, except it's a range of photos, fading to the next, which creates kind of a videotape effect. They use PHOTOJAM to compile "Cab Rides" on the NEC and the Raritan Valley line.
You should check how they do it as it imitates a videotape except nothing moves.
Why are they abandoning the Boonton line? Wouldn't that cause more complaints about bad service?
- Lyle Goldman
They're merging it with the Montclair Branch. Boonton riders would now have access to Newark Broad St. and Direct service / 1 transfer service to Penn Station. They hope to close the route it currently takes with stops at Arlington, Rowe St., and Benson St. because several bridges along the line need extensive repairs.
Are these busy stations now?
Not really, but there was an article in the "Independent Press" (a local Bloomfield newspaper) that mentioned a person, or group of people (please forgive the vagueness - I skimmed the article briefly at my friends house while he and his father got into a fake shouting match over some crap...)
The article mentioned rail service every 90 minutes from 6 AM to 8 PM between Hoboken and Walnut Street along the existing Boonton Line, with possible service to Allied Junction when it opens, and a possible new station in Belleville. The line will be called the "Essex-Hudson County Line", but it will be privately-run. Not by NJ Transit.
>>WASHINGTON (June 24) - Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta expressed confidence Monday that the nation's passenger rail system will not be shut down this week, but he offered no immediate solution to Amtrak's financial problems.
Breaking from an emergency meeting of Amtrak's board of directors, Mineta said a solution will require both a cut in Amtrak's expenses and federal financial help.
'I am confident that we will be able to avoid a shutdown of services,'' Mineta said. 'We have much more work to do but we will continue to work on an effective solution.''
Amtrak President David Gunn and board Chairman John Robert Smith welcomed Mineta's pledge but said it does not prevent the first systemwide shutdown in the railroad's 31-year history, only delays it.
'There has been no reconciliation of the simple fact that Amtrak is running out of cash and [there is) no agreement on how to provide a loan guarantee or appropriation that will continue train service to the end of the fiscal year,'' the Amtrak officials said.
The closed-door meeting ended in early evening. Transportation Department spokesman Chet Lunner said the board had not made a final decision and would meet again this week.
Gunn said last week that Amtrak needs about $75 million a month to operate, but he planned to spend the railroad's last $40 million on an orderly shutdown that would begin as early as this week.
Since its inception 31 years ago, Amtrak has received more than $25 billion in federal funds for operations and capital expenditures. This year, the railroad is receiving $521 million from the federal government.
The Amtrak statement suggests that the railroad may be able to operate for another week or two while officials continue to work with the administration and Congress for a solution. Given Mineta's pledge, Amtrak may feel confident enough to spend the $40 million on normal operations.
Mineta said the administration and Amtrak will work with Congress to make sure passenger rail service continues. He said the administration should not bear the responsibility alone for Amtrak's problems.
'This must be a team effort,'' he said. 'The burden is not on the administration to save the rail system from bankruptcy, nor should it be.''
But Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., disagreed. 'The shutdown of the system, quite frankly, is in the president's hands right now,'' he said. 'I hope he acts responsibly.''
Amtrak has a standing line of credit that normally can help it get through the final months of a fiscal year. This year, however, Amtrak has had trouble tapping its line of credit because lenders are unsure how long it will remain in business.
Amtrak last Monday applied for a loan guarantee from the Federal Railroad Administration, a part of the Transportation Department. But Mineta has said the application is difficult to approve because Amtrak has borrowed heavily against its assets in recent years.
If the railroad administration were to rule that Amtrak does not qualify for a loan guarantee, the only options would be a congressional appropriation or an order by lawmakers that the agency grant one.
Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, spoke Monday with Gunn and Mineta about an emergency funding package to keep Amtrak running.
Byrd is insisting that help for Amtrak be part of negotiations between the Senate and the White House over an antiterrorism bill.
'Without Amtrak, the nation's transportation network would be thrown into disarray. We cannot allow that to occur,'' Byrd said.
Earlier Monday, Sen. Robert Torricelli, D-N.J., said Mineta and President Bush assured him they would help Amtrak weather the financial crisis.
Torricelli discussed Amtrak with Bush and Mineta on Monday during a visit by the president to New Jersey. He said Bush also ''made clear his insistence that there be some changes in Amtrak, some reform in structure and operation.''
White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said Bush stressed the importance of reform at Amtrak. She said the president wants an Amtrak 'driven by sound economics.''
Torricelli said he agreed that reform is needed, but ''right now we don't have time to worry about the long term. We have to worry about people not getting to work on Thursday.''<<
Associated press
So, in short the government gave Amtrak the money huh.
Not much different from what I posted from the AP last night -- funding's OK for this week, but something needs to be done before mid-July.
And anyone who think's Robert Byrd is being noble and altrustic in this is a fool -- the anititerrorism bill is weighted down already with so many pork projects various congressmen -- Republican and Democrat -- have put into it, Bushhas threatened a veto unless the anti-terror bill is limited to just anti-terror measures. Byrd, who is the king of getting pet pork projects through Congress, wants to stick the Amtrak plan in there only because he thinks it will make it tougher for Bush to veto all the other unecessary crap larded into the bill.
In other words, it's the typical game of "chicken" Washington D.C. style. We'll see what happens next...
"Expressed confidence" does NOT mean that a deal has been made. It's STILL up to congress to actually DO something. What has changed is that Amtrak will, instead of using its last $25 million to perform an "orderly shutdown" will instead operate for five more days using that money. As a result, if congress does NOT come through with the money on time, equipment and passengers will be ABANDONED wherever they sit.
We're NOT out of the woods yet ...
So, in short the government gave Amtrak the money huh.
ARTICLEin todays Times.
Peace,
ANDEE
That speed [10-15 mph] complied with the rules, a New York City Transit superintendent testified. All the same, the jury accepted expert testimony that under the circumstances, the operator should have been able to stop his train in time had he been going 10 m.p.h. or less.
So this jury thinks that the T/O was delibrately doing more than 10 mph because he momentarily believed that the call from the supervisor would turn out to be a "false alarm" and he did not want to delay his train "unnecessarily"?
Having never been a T/O in that situation, I don't know if I would have believed it was a false alarm (esp. after having how many false alarms every week about "person on track"?) I do know that under certain circumstances Greyhound operators will ignore the state-sanctioned speed limit, even though they know that they increase the probability of their getting into an accident (thus potentially killing someone) by doing so. What d'yall think? Do you think the T/O momentarily believed that it was a false alarm, or did the T/O really think 10-15 mph was a safe speed under those circumstances?
Interestingly, I agree with the jury (that the T/O probably did overlook the dangers of what he was doing), although I believe that does not make him responsible for the woman's ordeal.
AEM7
Yes, but 10-15 mph could mean 11mph...so you're saying that draws the line between life and death? Plus it's QUITE obvious that the greedy....I'll refrain from using profanity here but I'm quite appauled at her, was suicidal. "Oh no, I was trying to get a suntan by laying down on the trackbed..." She doesn't know how she got there...psh.
The T/O is not at fault here,
but the system does not prevent such as her from climbing down onto the tracks.
Either a barrier, a door, or some other 'efective device' needs to be in place to prevent access to the tracks, or what?.......
There seems to be no effective way to protect people from thier own stupidity or attemts at self-mutilation or suicide. The problem was, 'someone reported' the lady on the tracks. Had it not been reported, the train would have come in at full bore, her purpose would have been accomplished, and there would have been no legal issue.
The motorman approaching the station should have been told to stop, and the conductor should have inspected the tracks into the station.
Or the motorman could have been instructed to bring his train into the station at a walking pace, watching for a 'person known to be on the tracks'.
The woman would then need to be arrested and detained under psychiatric observation. If no psychiatric sequalle were found, she should spend 15 days in jail for tresspassing and for obstructing the operations of a railroad.
Elias
The article didn't say what the Train Operator was thinking.
David
I forgot to post this earlier. Pennsylvania just passed the same type of proportional responsibility tort reform law mainly ibn an effort to stop a deep pocket who might be like %1 responsibgle from paying 100% of the claim if the person 99% responsible is unable to pay. In theory, if a transit employee is mainly to blame for a mishap, the transit agency can't be held fully responsible and will not have to pay the full amount.
It can't work like that, because the employee is an agent of the company, and the company is responsible for his actions. This is true of any business.
-Hank
insane
Abuse of the legal system. If the MTA were a real corperation, they would scream insurance fruad.
I was thinking about two classic locomotive designs, the GG-1 and the Burlington Zephyr, and I thought it would be cool if someone built a locomotive with modern hardware inside, and one of those classic designs outside. Are there insurmountable reasons why this couldn't be done? I know that in the case of the GG-1, the design is still owned by whatever entity inherited it from Raymond Loewy, the designer. How much would it cost to secure the rights to use one of these classic designs again?
Are there technical barriers as well? I also wondered about aerodynamics, but then consider the modern AEM-7. It's a brick (even though I like it) and either of these old designs would have to be at least as aerodynamically effiecient as that.
I'm not sure anyone at all would be interested in doing this, or if it's possible, but its fun to think about.
Mark
It's like SEPTA having LRV's built into PCC shells.
That's exactly what I had in mind. Classic outside, modern engineering inside.
Mark
RIGHT up to date gutsimmortal designs
the only defect in the original Zephyrs was the articulation/inflexibility of consist.
What we have needed for decades was an RDC that rides well. As I personally have not ridden any of the offshore DMU's maybe the hardware is out there waiting for purchase orders.
In any event two recent 'sucesses/ in auto marketing have shown that 'retro styling'/ 'nostalgia styling' with current guts is a winner.
Back when the "Titanic" movie mania was in full swing, there was a proposal to build a replica Titanic cruise ship with modern engineering underneath. Seems a little morbid to me. Anyway, the cruise business is not booming now and the Titanic fad has passed; I haven't heard anything about it recently.
Cunard is building a Queen Mary II that, although it doesn't duplicate the appearance of the original ship, is supposed to evoke some of the classic trans-Atlantic liner designs.
Raymond Loewy (the firm, I don't know if the man was still around) also designed the R40 slant.
Raymond Loewy also designed the 1950 and '51 bullet-nosed Studebakers (which is one of my all-time favorite cars), as well as the Avanti in 1963.
the design is still owned by whatever entity inherited it from Raymond Loewy, the designer. How much would it cost to secure the rights to use one of these classic designs again?
Raymond Loewy did not design the GG-1. He merely ordered the Rivets removed and replaced with a weld-in-place building technique, and he suggested that the machine be painted in Brunswick Green with a pinstripe.
The PRR Railroad Carbuilding/Engineering department designed the basic shape of the GG-1. It was designed after P-5's got into grade crossing accidents and engineers were crushed to death. So they designed the P5-a's like a battering ram. See here.
To use that basic shape again would not be in violation of any copyrights or design patents, although I can guarentee if Bombardier tried it, the Loewy Co. will sue, and they might win, because the juries have no clue that he didn't design it.
As for the aerodynamics, the AEM-7 is probably about roughly as aerodynamic as the Acela locomotive (see a previous thread for an informed discussion). The Acela just *looks* more aerodynamic to the untrained eye. Aerodynamics do matter, but most of the battle is fought in the smoothness of the skin and the little nooks and crannies on the roof and in the underframe, not in the bulbous fibreglass nose.
AEM7
Actually, the nose IS signifcant.Take a look at the nose of the Concorde compared to the nose of a 767. The AEM7 nose is like a brick wall. Simply sloping the nose can improve efficenc by 10%-15%.
-Hank
Would it even be practical to build something like a GG1 using modern technology? I'm thinking about the running gear here. First of all, modern locomotives use 2-3 axle trucks rather than large cast beds that stretch half the length of the engine. While I doubt there would be a major problem with using larger frames like the GG1 had, it might not be very popular. More of a problem (potentially) is the traction motor issue. GG1's used quill drive, which - as far as I know - is NOT in vogue. I'm sure modern locomotives all use standard nose-hung axle-mounted traction motors. Would there be room for such motors in a GG1's frame, or would you have to space out the axles differently? Help...?
Frank Hicks
P.S. I am also of the opinion that a GG1 with a Faiveley half-a-graph would be heresy of the worst sort!
(re Mr Hicks' post on quill drive):
Actually, Quill drive is alive and well. The current SOA is body mounting of motors - more reliable, and significantly lower unsprung and low sprung mass. Less track dammage, less weight transfer, significantly better stability.
Not to say Quill is dead - the ALP-46 has it, and the AEM-7 has it (I think). The AEM-7 is also one of the few locomotives in the US with truck mounted motors that are fully suspended, and not bearing weight directly on the axles.
This isn't to say nose suspension isn't seem overseas, it is, just not in most passenger equipment.
As far as aerodynamics? I'm not sure how significant the nose is on a train. This isn't to say it's not (it is), but a train is significantly longer than a plane, and the effects of stuff are a bit different.
At high speeds (180mph), it makes a difference because air resistance is where the bulk of the energy is going. At sub 120mph speeds, it's not as important. At sub 80mph, it's not important at all - but you might want to design for better performance w.r.t. passing platforms and other trains, etc. I've noticed the M-1's dont' cause the "whump" of air that the C-3's do. I'm almost certain the front end is the reason.
Of course, this is all quite an established science - wind tunnel testing (even full size), is trivial at even HSR speeds.
The side advantage to an aerodynamic design is noise reduction - The french, among others, have engaged in acoustic imaging of trains.
I seriously doubt there's any copyrights or anything restricting the GG-1 design by now. It would be interesting to see what the basic design could be like with modern materials (high strength stainlesses), and fabricated trucks, AC traction, etc. I suspect you'd get a lighter locomoptive, and the GG-1's axle load is already surprisingly light.
But then, I seriously wonder how such a design would compare to a modern 6 or even 4 axle electric. IIRC, the ALP-46 will match the GG-1's starting and running TE, at 1/2 the weight, but higher axle loads (!). The '46's AC propulsion and higher HP would win in the long term, though the GG-1's overload capacity is impressive for a pre war locomotive from anywhere (but eclipsed by the 60's with the 12,000+ hp overloads of German locomotives).
The EP-5 is another one to throw in - but the EP-5 was tailored for lower speed but higher acceleration. IIRC, there were certain NH trains that the EP-5 was the only locomotive they used for them, period.
Aerodynamics depends on how fast you want to go. How fast does an AEM7 go? And just sloping the nose won't improve effeincy. You have to take into account all sorts of variables that I don't know about :-)
A Lamborghini Diablo has a CD (drag coeffcent, higher is worse) of .30
While a stubby looking GM EV1 has a CD of .19
I should have said, the aerodynamics of something depends on how fast that thing will go. An AEM7 is not going to go as fast as an Acela, so it won't be designed with a better CD. The rest of the above post is correct.
Think about this: if we built brand new locos that looked like something from the 40s, 50 years from now, what would the railfans then think of this era? Those new locos would have no distinct place in history. Rolling stock, and anything manufactured or built in general, should reflect the era it was built. What if everything that people are passionate about was done in retro style? We would never advance as a society.
Also, if you are the engineer designing a new loco, you want your work to be your own, so that when people see one, they think, "Wow, so and so can really design good shit!" If you design something from older spec, people might think you can't come up with something original so you took the easy retro route (there are some auto companies and some archiects do this too much), or you just become completely foregotten. If the Burlington Zehphr was built in retro or conventional style, we wouldn't be talking about it today. It was an advance in design back then, and we should strive to do that in anything built.
I agree completely. The GG-1 and the D-types and the [insert your favorite vintage rolling stock here] were all great designs, and they should be preserved in museums, but I think modern design needs to look forward rather than backwards.
I guess I'm part of the minority around here that looks forward to new generations of railcars, rather than weeping about the stuff that's being replaced. I'd love to help restore a Redbird at a museum, but I'd much rather ride a R62 or a R142 when I'm commuting to/from work each day.
I feel the same way about architecture... Historic preservation is a huge pet issue to me, but my skin crawls when I see brand-new buildings trying to pretend they're 80 years old. I'd much rather see a sleek, well-designed steel-and-glass building co-existing with the landmark brick-and-stone building next door than trying to imitate it.
The GG-1 deserves high regard, but I also think the Acela is a damn beautiful train. I think there's enough room in the world for both.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The GG-1 deserves high regard, but I also think the Acela is a damn beautiful train.
It helps if the roof is intact. On my way to the "143 to the Redbirds" trip Tuesday I photographed the rear motor of a westbound AE from eastbound NJT train 3852 in Harrison. The roof panel was missing, as per a recent thread.
I suppose that the title of this thread could describe the subway to some people, but in reality Sea Beach Fred's favourite ride is turning 75 years old tomorrow (6/26). Since this ride is in the category of scenic railways, it is wholly on topic!
--Mark
I have to ride the Cyclone while I'm here for the summer!
Museum Triplex 6019 was placed in service 6/21/27, five days before the anniversary. Wouldn't it be cool for the guests to arrive at Coney Island on her?
But it's kind of late to think of that now.
Not much different from what I posted from the AP last night -- funding's OK for this week, but something needs to be done before mid-July.
And anyone who think's Robert Byrd is being noble and altrustic in this is a fool -- the anititerrorism bill is weighted down already with so many pork projects various congressmen -- Republican and Democrat -- have put into it, Bushhas threatened a veto unless the anti-terror bill is limited to just anti-terror measures. Byrd, who is the king of getting pet pork projects through Congress, wants to stick the Amtrak plan in there only because he thinks it will make it tougher for Bush to veto all the other unecessary crap larded into the bill.
In other words, it's the typical game of "chicken" Washington D.C. style. We'll see what happens next...
As in past years, I will have limited access to the Internet between now and July 22. I will read the board on occasion and post every once in awhile. I will try to respond to all my e-mail although if you send me something and I don't respond right away, I will do so as soon as I can.
I will also not be updating my website during this time. I have added pictures of the WMATA CAF (5000 Series) cars. The URL is www.orenstransitpage.com.
Talk to you all when I get back!
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Good by, Write when you have work.
Actually, MNR trains from New Haven can go to Penn right now. They would have to skip all the Bronx stations, but New Haven trains do that anyway, with the exception of Fordham. How about sending a few trains out of New Haven to Penn along the Amtrak ROW over the Hell Gate Bridge. Could be interesting service.
[How about sending a few trains out of New Haven to Penn along the Amtrak ROW over the Hell Gate Bridge]
For this to be possible, MNCR M3s and M6s would have to have their electric traction hardware changed to accept 12kV 25HZ power from the catenaries from Harold then under the tunnels to NYP. The MNCR cars only operate on 12kV 60Hz power. Therefore, this is not economically feasable.
-Dan
nyrail.org
This is very True! And they would have to talk this over with Amtrak.
No, the New York and Atlantic Railroad owns the bridge and it is owned by the MTA. Amtak leases the tracks from the NY&A RR.
not is it not fesable, but where are they going to store the trains? They can't use the 3rd rail. It would be stupid to reverse the train and send it to sunnyside, because Amcrap won't stand for it.
Metro North has a very good bargaining chip with Amtrak. They can put out a suggestion to all the towers that a certain ACELA train be relegated to the local track from New Rochelle to New Haven. Unofficially, of course.
I still think my idea about the power problems is the cheapest solution. Outfit several Genesis engines with shoes that can take both third rails and enable 'em to take the LIRR's voltage. But another problem is Amtrak's rule that there must be 2 engines on every dual-mode train in Penn Station, MNRR might have to hang on to their FL-9s to keep from encountering a shortage.
Amtrak needs do pull some eminent domain or something on Metro North. Why does a little pissant commuter railroad get to tell Amtrak where to get off? There is no reason why the NEC north of NY needs to be owned by such a local group, they create delays, slow the trains, and generally make a problem out of themselves. NJT, SEPTA, MBTA, MARC, and VRE do not own the NEC trackage that they run over, and Amtrak does not unduely force them to run late, Metro North should just hand it over, as New Haven should have done thirty years ago. Out west of here Amtrak has problems with Freight railroads pulling the same garbage, routing their intermodals around Amtrak trains that may wait through 3 to 5 passes, Amtrak needs to do something about it, and since the NEC is where it shines, where it makes a majority of it's money, kicking Metro North off the northern NEC seems like a logical starting point for doing the same system-wide.
[Ok, now that I have pissed off 3/4 of the posters here, allow me to explain, three times I have gone to pick up people at 30th street coming in from north of new york, twice from Boston, once from Providence. Two out of those three trips the train was late, and both times the reason I got was that there was track work north of New York, namely on the MN. Don't get me wrong, Metro North is great, I just don't think they need to clog Amtrak's way]
As for the continuation of MN/Conndot service down to Penn, I'm all for it, I would love to see Conndot purchase some AEM-7/ALP-46s, or HHP-8s with some comet V cars, or even just Shoreliner IIs, and run NYP-PVD trains, skipping the local stations NY-NH, and taking over the Shoreline East while extending it to Providence. If this was managed, and the Perryville, MD-Newark, DE gap was closed, then there would finally be a cheap (i.e cheaper than greyhound), albeit slow method to go Was-Bos without using amtrak directly, commuter service all the way.
Alright, yes I said some bad things about the MTA, and I don't live in NY, so scream about my idiocy later, I really have recieved little in the way of a critique of the idea for NYP-PVD commuter service by Conndot. Does anyone think it is a good idea? would it be used? and would it be doable?
Thanks
The idea may in theory and in logic be right, but those who own the tracks do make the rules. Metro North owns the tracks, so obviously what they say goes. The same with the freight railroads. They own the track, and maintain them. It's similar to a landlord/tenant relationship in an apartment or house. The tenant pays their rent for the right to use the property, but it's ultimately the landlord who has the right to do what they want the property, whether it's logical or not. If he wants to instal purple polka-dot rugs in the hall, the landlord can, it's his property. It's the same with Amtrak running on Metro-North's tracks.
The Metro North construction work that caused the delays was probably the installation of concrete ties. Obviously as a result the express and local trains all have to share the trackage. Local trains running on the express track also have to line up with the bridge plates. If the Amtrak train is late, it's their fault for not allowing for this in the schedule.
They should know that if there is only one track south of Stamford, they shouldn't schedule a train to leave there two minutes after a GCT local! Freight railroads screw over Amtrak because their schedules are flexible and Amtrak can't account for it. But MNRR has a very high on-time record for their trains, and even the deadhead runs are on an exact schedule. There is no reason why Amtrak couldn't sit down with MNRR and plan out their routes during construction to minimize delays. But instead, while MNRR cut and combined a few rush hour trains Amtrak continued their regular service with minor, poorly done adjustments.
Or, Metro North could have not installed concrete ties and ignored scheduled tie replacement, causing everything to be restricted to 10MPH 5 years from now!
Does it make you feel better to know that MNRR trains also get slowed down by late Amtrak trains? I was 6-7 mins late into New Rochelle on a MN train recently because we had to wait for an Amtrak train first to cross ahead of us and then to stop at the station.
NHRR used to do that, but that was before being boaught by PennCentral.
New Haven was not bought by the Penn Central, they were forcibly merged into them by government order over the objections of PC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey half their yard is always empty and half abandoned.
not is it not fesable, but where are they going to store the trains?
If I understand correctly, MNRR want to send some New Haven Service across Hell Gate to Penn (sadly without an Astoria stop), AND some Hudson service down West Side to Penn.
The obvious way of not using any extra train storage capacity is to run thru services between the New Haven and Hudson divisions via Penn, with none terminating at Penn Station.
"New Haven Service across Hell Gate to Penn (sadly without an Astoria stop)"
And how the heck can they stop in Astoria?
there is no station, No platform.
Watch your ste.....AAAAAAAAaaaaaaa............ SPLAT
And how the heck can they stop in Astoria?
If you looked at the article it said that they considered and rejected the ideas of stops in Astoria and Sunnyside. Astoria would've been a great one, especially if they took the opportunity to construct a LGA shuttle from there.
There's no platform or station in Astoria, but then again there's none at Coop City either. You have to build one in either case, which costs money.
I'm suprised no one has mentioned the "Straphanger's Campaign" protest to have the "V" and the "F" switch routes("V" move to 63st. & "F" move back to 53St.) Does anyone think this will be productive? I'm not so certain.
JDL
Here's the full story
>>JUNE 25TH, 2002
A transit watchdog group says the new V subway line between Queens and Manhattan should be rerouted because it has failed to ease overcrowding.
The V line, which runs locally along Queens Boulevard and then down to Manhattans Lower East Side along Sixth Avenue, was introduced in December to make room on the chronically overcrowded E and F lines along the same corridor. The F was made an express line and rerouted through the previously unused 63rd Street tunnel.
But according to the Straphangers Campaign, the V hasn't attracted enough riders and the E and F lines are as crowded as ever. The group says the current routes give straphangers the poor choices of riding the faster but overcrowded E, the slower V or the F, which is express but no longer has transfer point with the Lexington Avenue lines.
The Straphangers Campaign says the V and F lines should be flipped, so the little-used V line goes through the 63rd Street tunnel and the F line returns to the 53rd Street tunnel and the transfer stop at Lexington Avenue.
Members of the group demonstrated in Midtown Tuesday, handing out leaflets to drum up support for rerouting the lines.
NY1 news<<
These people are forever complaining. How about we ignore these people for once. The V train is easing overcrowding the Straphangers campaign just fails to see that.
I like the pre December 16th way better. Except, change the orange S 63st shuttle to a V. Or screw the orange S and extend the Q & Qx to 21st. I hope 57st/6av don't get much passengers. Otherwise, a block walk from 57/6 to 57/7 aint that far.
Actually, it is a long walk especially if you're tired after a long day of work.
Which was the whole fuss about the Court Square G.
I like the pre December 16th way better. Except, change the orange S 63st shuttle to a V. Or screw the orange S and extend the Q & Qx to 21st. I hope 57st/6av don't get much passengers. Otherwise, a block walk from 57/6 to 57/7 aint that far.
The 63rd Street line is next-to-useless if it doesn't connect to Queens Blvd, or to SOMETHING beyond Queensbridge.
:-) Andrew
Actually, the crosstown blocks are very long...someday, just for giggles, walk across 57th Street from 1st Ave. to 12th Ave.
I was a foot messenger in Manhattan in the pre-fax machine early 80's, take it from me, from 57th St. and 7th Av. to 57th St. and 6th Av. is far enough.
On a side note, has anyone here ever transferred from the 2 to the LL at 14th St.? I did that once by mistake, I thought I was in a sci-fi/horror movie, that has to be the LONGEST underground passageway EVER.
"On a side note, has anyone here ever transferred from the 2 to the LL at 14th St.? I did that once by mistake, I thought I was in a sci-fi/horror movie, that has to be the LONGEST underground passageway EVER."
I do it all the time. It's a full crosstown city block (7th to 6th). But it's well lit, full of people, and easier than going outdoors. It might be the longest, because all the other ones are closed because they were outside fare control and weren't safe enough. I've always felt safe in this one, though.
>> ...because all the other ones are closed because they were outside fare control and weren't safe enough. <<
The transfer from the A/C/E to anything else at TS/42 St is also a crosstown city block.
I do hope the TA considers the notion of re-opening the passage from 34th/7th to 34th/6th (as has been discussed here in the past).
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Forgot about that one.
In fact, from the A/C/E to the N/R/Q/W is a longer walk, and more up and down, than from the 1/2/3 to the L or the F/V.
But there are escalators to help out. Getting from the F to the 1/2/3 requires a climb down to the L platform and then another climb back up to the corridor.
The long, open hallway between Chambers St. and the undergound entrance to the mall in the WTC at the Chambers St./WTC A,C,E station is more or less as long as the distance between 5th and 6th Ave. (~1,200 ft), and is outside fare control. When I lived on Chambers and worked in Broadway and Cedar, that tunnel was very useful to avoid rain and/or snow.
Oh, I didn't mean it felt unsafe....I just meant, it seemed never-ending....I'm from the South Bronx, "unsafe" is a relative term...
:)
"The Straphangers Campaign says the V and F lines should be flipped, so the little-used V line goes through the 63rd Street tunnel and the F line returns to the 53rd Street tunnel and the transfer stop at Lexington Avenue."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the "V" be even LESS USED if it went through the 63rd Street tunnel??
The Straphangers adopted an opinion and chose statistics to support it. They did not do so arbitrarily; they did so based on pre-existing biases expressed by Gene Russianoff, Neysa Pranger, and other group leaders, and the opinions of the people who give them money. The Straphangers are a grass-roots group, abut it appears their financial contributors these days tend to be the anti-v crowd. Hey, $15 a year is cheap.
Te Straphangers have done some great work - and I've worked with them on some big issues. No one can take that away from them. But this is a screw-up.
I worked the G today, and alot of people are asking for Queens Blvd. local stations. These people would have to change twice, while I don't see what better could come from flipping the services. (Except to people on the 63rd St. lines who are used to empty trains but now have a crowded F). Otherwise, it will not make more people ride since the problem is them wanting an express. If anything, it will draw away riders who at least benefit from the indoor transfer to the 6.
[...and a lot of people are asking for Queens Blvd. local stations. These people would have to change twice...]
Why do G riders have to change twice? The V at 23rd/Ely goes directly to their local stations.
They would have to if the V and F were swapped. G riders would have to take the E or F one stop to Queens Plaza to x-fer to an R train.
[The Straphangers adopted an opinion and chose statistics to support it.]
In this case, by doing the following:
1. They implicitly assume that ALL Queens Blvd express riders - and NO Queens Blvd local riders - are destined for 53rd/Lex. (That's clearly false, but don't say so too loudly.)
2. Based on the false assumption noted above, they talk ONLY to a few vocal E riders (who probably happen to be Straphangers members as well), and ONLY at 53rd/Lex.
- - - - -
Obviously, some other riders are either happy or neutral, including:
* Queens-Express-to-6th-Avenue riders (who avoid the 53rd/Lex bottleneck);
* Queens-Local-to-6th-Avenue and Queens-Local-to-53rd-Street riders (who avoid a transfer);
* 53rd-Street-to-6th-Avenue riders (who can get seats AND who don't care what the train is called as long as it moves).
However, Straphangers can't generate photo-ops or revenue if it admits that some riders might be happy.
[The Straphangers adopted an opinion and chose statistics to support it.]
In this case, by doing the following:
1. They implicitly assumed that ALL Queens Blvd express riders - and NO Queens Blvd local riders - are destined for 53rd/Lex. (That's clearly false, but don't say so too loudly.)
2. Based on the false assumption noted above, they talked ONLY to a few vocal E riders (who probably happen to be Straphangers members as well), and ONLY at 53rd/Lex.
- - - - -
Obviously, some other riders are either happy or neutral, including:
* Queens-Express-to-6th-Avenue riders (who avoid the 53rd/Lex bottleneck);
* Queens-Local-to-6th-Avenue and Queens-Local-to-53rd-Street riders (who avoid a transfer);
* 53rd-Street-to-6th-Avenue riders (who now get seats AND who don't care what the train is called as long as it moves).
However, Straphangers can't generate photo-ops or revenue if it admits that some riders might be happy.
> 53rd-Street-to-6th-Avenue riders (who now get seats AND
> who don't care what the train is called as long as it moves).
Actually, they might be unhappy, since the V Train comes much less frequently that the F Train.
- Lyle Goldman
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the "V" be even LESS USED if it went through the 63rd Street tunnel??
Exactly. E/F ridership would once again top 100% capacity and V patronage would be ridiculously small. Why are the Straphanger's supporting such a plan?
1. Nothing better to do. These people are professional protesters who must have a cause, even if they must invent one.
2. Publicity for Russianoff's NYPIG's group, which recently was blasted for a horribly biased and scientifically dubious lead paint report.
3. Reduce ridership on the V to such a low level that they can force the TA to restore G service on Queens Blvd, or at least make Greenpoint residents mad that they've lost direct Queens Blvd service to make way for a failed route.
I hope the TA sticks to it's guns. Most Queens IND riders have adjusted to the new service. I was on a V train on Monday which was as packed as any E train as it arrived at Lexington Ave.
The Straphangers campaign's idea's for the V would only benefit people who live in Brooklyn and have to commute to Midtown and passengers on the express trains.
Actually, it wouldn't help Brooklyn riders at all. The F already hits most of the important destinations, and offers plenty of transfers before it gets to midtown.
"I hope the TA sticks to it's guns. Most Queens IND riders have adjusted to the new service. I was on a V train on Monday which was as packed as any E train as it arrived at Lexington Ave. "
It may not if it doesn't hear from you.
IF YOU HAVE TIME TO POST ON SUBTALK YOU HAVE TIME TO WRITE A LETTER TO MTA. WRITE IT.
This subject has been beaten to death. It's ridiculous.
The Straphangers Campaign caters to constituencies with axes to grind. The issues it took on years ago that united all of us (the mega-graffitti, the pre-Capital Plan MTA, the out-of-control crime, have been resolved, so now they're left with nonsense like this - small community stuff.
Again, no reason for the TA to do anything.
If it begins to look like that will happen, tell the G train riders they'll have to transfer thrice to get to Queens local stops. And, tell people who want local stops between QP and Roosevelt that they now can only take the R!
And, tell the 63st customers that they'll have no service at night or on weekends.
As usual, straphangers are talking out their ass again. I love the current plan, and being a Queens Blvd rider I'm qualified to say that!
And the current plan does work to save crowding, people from 65st to Queens Plaza are not taking the F, are they? are they!
Why would they have to transfer "thrice," as you put it? Couldn't they just transfer from the G to the F at 23rd Street / Court Square and then from the F to the R at Queens Plaza or Roosevelt Avenue? That's only two transfers.
Of course, the current system is better.
- Lyle Goldman
Yup. They're dead wrong about this one. NYCT has done the best they could with what they had, and honestly the system they now have on Queens Blvd. works better than what they had before. Now all rush hour trains run to/from Manhattan. No more mass exodus from the (G) to the (E) and (F) at Queens Plaza. Less delays on the (F) now that it shares less trackage with the (E), and vice-versa.. Less crowding all along now that passengers are more evenly distributed. It's not perfect. Certainly those going to/from northwest Brooklyn got the shaft, but it's the best they could do with what they have.
:-) Andrew
Amen to that!
Now, please do MTA a favor?
1) Go to the Straphangers website to look at the Governors' phone number, then call and tell Pataki's office the Straphangers blew it on this one.
2) Write MTA to let em know the current arrangement works OK.
Write:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY 10017
No point.
A the trend is toward V usage. B this is really about killing the V so the G can come back and they know it. C if he goes to a hearing they can play back the tape of him saying it was a good idea. D as I have said before Archer Ave took longer to catch on.
Your arguments about the V are logical. But politics isn't about logic. MTA needs to hear from rational people like you so as to fend off BS from politicians getting coupons from the Straphangers.
If you have time to post on Subtalk you have time to write a letter to MTA.
Can you afford a 34 cent stamp (37 cents in July) or do you want me to lend it to you?
Like that crack is going to motivate me.
I think that the V should run on weekends and evenings
(i know that they are supposed to run on evenings, but service ends after 10ish)
Another thing(not a problem.)
I think that during late nights the F should run local instead of the E, this would make the E more consistant
The long tem plan is V on weekends. As for the E and F. There is extra time in the E work programs for local service. When you run the F local the extra time involved is enough to have to pay some OT most of the time. The local F was a VERY draining run for the crews.
It is very difficult to change ridership habits since the ridership is so used to doing things a certain way previously for so many years. Some customers at local stops between Continental and Queens Plaza have actually received improved service since they now have 2 ways (R/V) to Manhattan instead of just one (R). Many times the local makes better time than the express due to congestion on the express tracks. Since the F runs 24/7 and the V does not, the F should continue to operate via the 63rd St. line. If it is sent via 53rd St. part time and via 63rd St. other times, that is unfair and confusing for some customers.
I agree, particularly with the part about having the F run through the 63rd Street Tunnel. It would be totally confusing to night riders if the F ran through 53rd Street during the day and 63rd Street at night. In addition to that, if the F were to return to 53rd Street while the V runs on 63rd Street, people at Queens Blvd local stations looking for the G would have to transfer twice.
I think the MTA has done a pretty good job with what they have. Sure, the E is still packed, the V is still underused, and the Lexington-53 Street station is a nightmare during rush hours, but the F at least isn't as packed as it used to be. Again though (as I have stated before) when the Manny B fully reopens, I'm still convinced that sending the Q through the 63rd Street as a third Queens Blvd Express would help Queens. Including my previous arguments (the numerous convenient transfers that the Q has, the only Queens Blvd train to run express in Manhattan), I now believe that the Lexington-53rd Street station will not be as crowded if the Q runs express in Queens. This is because a good number of the people at that station are coming from/going to lower Manhattan on the Lex. For them, the only way they can get the Queens Blvd Express, without walking long distances, is to take three trains. With the Q heading to Queens as a third express, they could now transfer at Union Square.
Very nice letter. Do you think you could transfer that to paper?
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt and Community Relations
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY 10017
I'll spring for a stamp if you need it.
If Subtalkers don't stop being useless wimps, their opinions won't count for a sack of excrement with legislators and the MTA next to people who do bother to write (and unfortunately, propose stupid things) and help the Straphangers, in this case, propose something foolish.
You know what, I just might do that. 34 cents isn't a lot of money. Do you honestly think though that they'll take my letter seriously?
Yes, I do. For one thing, receiving a letter supportive of the current plan offers them evidence it was justified. They can use it to reduce the importance of Straphanger coupons which claim the opposite. For another, your reasoning is solid, and they do respond to reasonable correspondence (and let's face it, you're agreeing with them. That's good news).
DO IT! I commend you.
You know what, I just might do that. 34 cents isn't a lot of money.
Go for it.
"With the Q heading to Queens as a third express, they could now transfer at Union Square."
Les: that is an excellent argument. I agree with RonInBayside. You should write a letter with that argument, and append to it your entire plan!
--Harry
Harry,
I think I'll do just that. No harm in trying.
Les
The only way the Q will operate as an express on the Queens Blvd Line and via 63rd Street is when it snows in July. It just is not going to happen. Here are the reasons
1-There is no capacity for additional express service on the Queens Blvd Line.
To add the Q then the E or F will have to go local
2-If you route the Q via 63rd Street then what train will serve the 57th Street/6th Ave Station.
Thank You
Not necessarily,
1. If you break up the 30 tph capacity among three Queens Blvd Expresses (E,F and Q). Both the E and F can still go express. I'm convinced that the F and particularly the E will not be as packed as you might think. The E will still be crowded, but not like today's E.
2. 57 Street-6 Ave will still be served by the F, coming off the 63rd Street line.
I posted a plan in February (with the help of others) that I believe could work once the Manny B reopens. "A Manhattan Bridge Re-Opening Plan That Could Work II" was the name of it. Feel free to take a look at it.
I'm pleased, since it means Gene Russianoff is being recognized as the insignificant publicity hound he is.
I think the V Trains needs to go, the ridership is very low, and if it would be good if goes because the G Train will get back the 6 Car Lenghth again.
And what, pray tell, would you replace it with? You want to kill off some of the extra capacity MTA provided to people headed for Manhattan?
The V train protest would look like a picnic compared to what would happen next. You like being lynched?
I'd offer a lollipop to each V train protester and tell em to go home.
LOL!
If anyone is looking for a copy of Ed Davis's book "They Moved The Millions" published in 1985, one is being offered on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1545323741
The opening price is $6.99 is a good one.
The auction ends on 6/29 Saturday so if you are interested it is best you get your bids in now.
{For those who don't know, Ed Davis is a SubTalker - bigedirtman)
If the bidding gets too high, I think Unca Ed STILL has some copies for sale if you email him - I got a few from him recently and it's a WONDERFUL book ...
Thanks for the plug and the kind comment. For those interested I still have copies of it left and will send you one with the freight paid for $8.00 as I'm trying to move them all out. This (1996) reprint will be the last.Send me an e-mail. BTW a book dealer at a train meet showed me a list..first 1985 edition selling for $50.00. Oy vay...I should have kept some!
I'm not one to collect train books myself. I have a pair of Fischler's books and while interesting, they contained some seriously glaring bad information (besides Malbone) and I have yours. I'm all set. I ABSOLUTELY LOVED the pictures and the stories that go with them were also interesting. I was born at a bad time, missed the Manhattan els but at least got to regularly ride what was left of the Third Avenue el in the Bronx. Your book filled in many blanks and questions.
For those who haven't collected this "MUST HAVE" book yet, write Ed and get yours while you still can. In all seriousness, you won't regret it. I don't endorse many things and folks here know what a cynic I am. Ed's book really IS worth it even if you have to pay eBay rates for a copy. Fortunately you don't ...
I already bought that book years ago and have enjoyed it. It's been a few years sinced I've read it, so I will have to again one day.
Big Ed gave me an autographed copy when he visited me hear at the Abbey, and saw my layout. I enjoy the book very much. There is a great deal of nostalgia there when is see trains that you grew up with that are no more.
I was very surprized to se that the 27s and 30s were long gone from the system. I never rode on a 62 or a 68 until last summer. I remember whe the 44s were top dog, and the 46s were just making their apperance.
I remember my dad telling me that the IND had the newest equipment (he meant the R1-9s) but even then the 27s 30s and 32s were roaming on Broadway... a line that he didn't use.
Elias (By the pop machine at the north end of the Bway 34th Street Platform)
Heh. Yeah, I was lucky enough to have worked the Arnines for a small part of my life. And yeah, got me a genu-wine autographed copy as well from Unca Ed. Nancy and I came down for Christmas, our first trip to the city in 15+ years and OUR first rides on 62's and 68's. Seems like your timing is about the same as mine. And yeah, the only time I did the Broadway BMT was when I got lost in the catacombs, ended up on the wrong train and went joyriding as a result. Us folks from the Bronx didn't have much use for the BMT aside from 'fanning. :)
Had it not been for all those Saturday rides on the A in the late 60s, I would have become a diehard BMT fan. I always liked the BMT Southern Division. Now the Canarsie line, well, that's another story. All because of those BMT standards.
I also have an autographed copy of Big Ed's book. Even acquired some of the slides from the photos.
Once I got to discover the BMT, I thought it was MIGHTY cool. Alas, it wasn't until I was nearly a teen that I did so because the BMT has no meaning in the Bronx. I *loved* the Culver shuttle, the Myrt, the Franklin, the spooky old stations in lower Manhattan that just screamed out "urban decay" and "what's that smell?" ...
I never got a real dose of the Brighton line until I worked it and fell in love ...
The shiny new R-32s did it for me on that first subway ride in 1965. The only thing I remember vivdly, other than the green backlit "57th St." side signs, was crossing the Manhattan Bridge. Although we blew past a number of local stations, I have no recollection of that.
Are you talking about "Uptown, Downtown"? I read it, and it was definately interesting to read, but it was so detialed with some of the accounts, it couldn't be completely true.
That's one of Fischler's books. I forget the name of the other, never finished it since some of the descriptions of the time when I worked there were so off the wall, I just couldn't finish it. His Malbone accounts though in U/D were ... well ... wrong. Same for some of the other stories.
The Fischler book that everyone seems to love is Confessions of a Trolley Dodger from Brooklyn.
Didn't see that one ... lest I commit a serious act of heresy, the streetcars were largely gone by the time I knew what they were. A few remained here and there on their last legs in the Bronx but I barely remember them. I didn't grow up in Brooklyn.
Yes, "They Moved the Millions" is a MUST HAVE for any serious NYC railfans. It covers all the equipment with tons of photos over the years along with colorful commentary by our own bigedirtmanl.
I got mine personally autographed by some guy named 'IRTman'...;-D
Are the reprints different in any way from the original edition: new info; different print or photo clarity?
Alan Glick
The only things different are the dedications, and the updates page was updated to 1996; likewise some model pix different and The state of the system revised to reflect the improvements made in NYCT since the original printing, so it isn't much different from the original. I know the paper and photo clarity were a sore spot to a lot of people [many who otherwise liked the book] but since it was an individual operation I did as best I could for the price.
Yes, A great book. I really enjoyed my visit with Ed back in 1987 in Montana.
We wrote back and forth for about four years when I lived in Astoria and a little after I moved to Texas and got very busy with real estate. I learned a lot about subways from Ed.
Steven Green
That's a great book.
E_DOG
Good afternoon. Would anyone know the exact location of where the LIRR's United Nations Station was located?
It might have been what's now Shea Stadium.
Don't think so. The UN was at Lake Success, near the City Line.
So would that mean the Great Neck station then?
I believe it was a separate station, so it would probably be in between Great Neck and Little Neck, and was only open when the UN was in session, I think. But Joe asked for the _exact_ location, and I don't know that.
I think that would be geographically impossible since Udall's Cove is on one side and the Great Neck Terrace Garden Apts. is on the other side.
But wasn't the UN also located in or near what's now Flushing Meadows-Corona Park?
Apparently both. See my reply to RonInBayside.
Wrong. The United Nations was headquartered at Flushing Meadows; the General Assembly met in what is now the Queens Museum. Among its more memorable early meetings was when UN members voted to recognize the State of Israel in 1948.
From Newsday's Long Island history site, re: Lake Success:
"World War II proved a major turning point with the construction of the $40-million Sperry Gyroscope plant in 1941. The plant, employing 20,000 at its peak, became headquarters for the fledgling United Nations in 1946. Lake Success, a reluctant host, was called the ``World's Capital.'' After the UN moved to Manhattan in 1951, the 1.5-million-square-foot facility had a series of defense industry owners."
As best I can tell, the Headquarters and Secretariat was at Lake Success and the General Assembly met in Flushing Meadows, but I have that they were at the New York City building, where the big scale model of the City was/is. Is that now the Queens Museum?
Yes, that's correct.
The UN was split among two locations. That made my previous post partly erroneous.
I woulda been nice if the UN had stayed at Lake Success. One's commute would not then be disrupted when heads of state attend UN sessions.
......unless you live near Lake Success..........
....or the entire Port Washington Line.
Although I don't know the exact mileage I think the location of the old UN in Lake Success would be closer to the New Hyde Park Station on the Main Line rather than any Port Washington Station. If I'm wrong it would be at least equi-distant or very close to equi-distant.
That presumes that all of the delegates would have been happy staying at a Motel 6 on Jericho Turnpike and having all their meals at the IHOP.
Sorry. It's been a long day at the office.
CG
That presumes that all of the delegates would have been happy staying at a Motel 6 on Jericho Turnpike and having all their meals at the IHOP.
Either one of which is better than they deserve.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't be so cruel, if there was no United Nations, then...
Wait, I need to think of something positive...
Um...
Eh...
I'll come back later.
I assume you never use the LIE or the Northern State.
Rarely. Did the PW LIRR a few times to get to Bayside, and only once in my life thru Jamaica to someplace I forget.
I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but here's a link to a map on the lirrhistory site:
http://www.lirrhistory.com/Oct98/1951nas.jpg
Mike
Considering the LIRR runs under 34 St and the UN building is at 42 St, I don't think there is such a station.
Don't like reading other responses before posting yours?
When I first saw the posting, I was thinking of the UN building in Manhattan. After I wrote it I realised (and read) there were the 2 places in Lake Sucess and Flushing Meadow Park. But I first thought someone was talking about a LIRR/UN station in Manhattan.
I have to admit: Me too.
But its part of the new East Side Access project.
If one wishes to get off at the station, you approach the engineer or conductor. You then both insert your special keys at the same time into a dummy door control pannel. The train will automatically slow to a stop, the door will open and the side of tunnel will open up like a garage door. You then ride a MagLev people mover to a special deligate's lounge in a terrorist proof bunker deen below the UN where dignitaries can wallow in their own crapulence.
Is there a new James Bond novel out? It sounds like you read it before you wrote your posting.
Me too, and thought to myself, "what?". Then I reread it and noticed it was in the past tense.
Art Huneke's Arrts-Arrchives.com UN Station webpage.
The Track Maps from the 1950's that I have show that it was located a little east from the 1939-40 World's Fair Station (and presumably the current station also)
Thanks for posting the information.
I am a bit surprised that the bus service to the Lake Success site ran from Great Neck rather than New Hyde Park. Possibly the road layouts were different back then.
It's funny, until this thread I never knew that the United Nations was not always where it is now, aand certainly never seen anywhere that the LIRR had a station for it!
Yesterday I was reading a post that mentioned that the TA had stopped qualifying T/O's for the R44, and there were a few T/O's qualified to operate the R46 set with a hostler. My question is, what in the world is a hostler and which trainset has it installed.
Thanks,
Tony
A hostler usually means a portable or limited set of controls used in special situations, such as might plug into the control lines from a non-control end of a car to move it around in a yard situation.
I don't know what these would be like on an R46, though.
Car #6207 has a hostler. It's the only blind end that isn't linked to anything.
And every 3rd time I go to Jamaica yard I get a move with the 2 car set. I was told a barn supervisor can qualify people. The worst thing about it is you are moving a train with no lights on the front end.
The worst thing about it is you are moving a train with no lights on the front end.
Why is that a problem?
Because I work midnights, the yard is dimly lit, you are operating looking thru the storm door and have little a poor LOS. If you coast the train is relatively quiet and all the old timers are deaf.
You forgot to tell him also how useless the little energizer bunny light is out through a storm door. :)
After dark layups on the R9's were done without benefit of "ditch lights" as well most of the time.
If all the cars have no lights and horn everyone knows to be super careful. When it is only one car I think it is easier to make a mistake.
Oh yeah, I was merely trying to taunt you a second time. :)
You can't always count on wheel sing behind you ... see, that was ANOTHER nice thing about the old cars - you could do a "love tap" on the rope that wouldn't "blat!" ... sorta what you can do on an SD-40 so as to not have people shooting at the point at 4AM through a sleepy town that ain't any more. A pushbutton doesn't exactly give you discretion.
But yeah, I know what gives you the willies with a dark nose and why it'd be nice to at least have a "sun gun" or some kind of light you could mount to see what's up there. I've seen some of the "reflective" on some of the vests on people who do REAL work ... know whut I meen?
Oh ... before I look like a dumbass (more so than usual anyway, I know Unca BMTman would go for that shot if I didn't beat him to it) I should have said before the "horn thing" that in the OLD cars, you had a cab at both ends. Reverse moves in a single car was easy. No lights, but you could at least "psssst! Pssssst!" on the horn and get their attention. And since you were used to the dark anyway, and they actually DID keep the floodlights lit, you had a chance back in my day. Running a car by remote control (even if wired in) is ... well ... unnatural. :)
Jamaica is well lit except for a few places wher of course that is wher you have to move the thing and the radio should tell you who is about to make a move out if you are listening and the battery is good.
Heh. Don't get me started on radios. Yeah, Murphy's law of selective drilling would put you out where the lamps don't shine. But yeah, I know what you mean by a dose of the willies. I take it they don't let you put the car ENTIRELY dark? Drop out the lights breakers and all? That used to be magic when the eyes had a little time to adjust while you waited for the little leprechauns drop the reds on ya so you could roll. As long as there was any light, you could sorta see if you weren't being blinded by something else. And they said having a #2 end was a waste. Then again, I was nuts at my age. Faced with the remote control, I'd open the door and hang by the chains and hope for the best. Foamer delight. See why I'm doing something else now? :)
Well the problem would be near the middle of the yard. There are the two cars on your track and the adjacent tracks have 10-12 cars two tracks thick. When you do move the sound does not really seem to be coming from your track. To the neighboring tracks you are just a dark shadow that looks like an empty track and while you do have interior lights they dont project out.
The chance of injury is really someone thinking you are an empty track and then walking a few feet in front of you, your side LOS on those things is crap.
Yep ... been there. Some outboard lights would be a good thing, or one of those cheezy airhorns (didn't realize I had posted the first reply before I was done - spacing out writing code) ... but yeah, I've got the scenario good and cold. And I know folks gotta do preps or are stepping down after a layup on an adjacent. I had a few holy shirts when I could SEE ...
I thought they would hitch those two to an AA set and be rid of the whole thing. Sorry G riders, no more 6 car train are possible
This might be a possible way out of the problem (whistles while slowly walking away) ...
Ah yes, Selkirks last move.
Was not! was not! I was banned from that yard MONTHS earlier. Heh.
Not as bad as that BMT standard which dropped a truck onto Jamaica Ave. after overshooting the end of the platform at 168th St.:-)
Heh. Any run you can walk away from is a good run. :)
When did this happen (I know before 1985)?
A long time ago - back in the 1920s, IIRC.
Stop teasing buildmorelines ... it happened back in 1876. Sheesh. Damned tormenters. :)
Heh. The only J train which ever went to "169th St".
ROTFLOL. "Now, Sir did you have any involment with this incident?"
Heh. Don't get me started on radios. Yeah, Murphy's law of selective drilling would put you out where the lamps don't shine. But yeah, I know what you mean by a dose of the willies. I take it they don't let you put the car ENTIRELY dark? Drop out the lights breakers and all? That used to be magic when the eyes had a little time to adjust while you waited for the little leprechauns drop the reds on ya so you could roll. As long as there was any light, you could sorta see if you weren't being blinded by something else. And they said having a #2 end was a waste. Then again, I was nuts at my age. Faced with the remote control, I'd open the door and hang by the chains and hope for the best. Foamer delight. See why I'm doing something else now? :)
Maybe they can issue some of those cheezy bottled air horns (ya know, the sports stadium style?) and you can do it Wily Coyote style ...
And getting a prewar train with no headlights was a real treat. Nothing but tunnel lights for illumination and silhouetted I-beams.
Get a battery spotlight. One hand on controller to stop deadman circut (if it worked/had it) other holding spotlight.
If possible can you explain how a hostler works and what kinda of equipment it requires. This sounds very interesting. Also, is this set used often in revenue service?
Tony
Cars 6206-6207 are used in revenue service, but the hostler (6207) is only used for yard moves, and only when necessary.
A hostler is like a mini-console where the T/O can operate from the blind end (seeing only through the storm door). There are buttons to push for the deadman (you hold it in at all times), switching, and series. There is also a spot to enter the reverser.
I've seen pics of the hostler somewhere in this site. Don't remember if it was part of a post or otherwise.
Is it behind the panel?
Yes it is. On the #1 end.
Before the R46's were GOH, the Cabs had hostler in side to. It was to the right of the controler, were the nobers are in some of the cabs.
Robert
Were the numbers are now on some.
Robert
The R44 and R46, as delivered, had "hostler" panels on both ends
of every car, including in the cab of the "A" cars, on the right
hand end post next to the window. It's been a long time since
I've used one. You had to insert and turn your console key on
the hostler to unlock it, throw a toggle switch which was the
reverser, and then hold down one "deadman" button at all times.
With another finger you could get switching, series, min brake
and max brake. I think there was also a horn button.
This was back in the P-wire days. The main purpose of the hostler
was to be able to move a car from the blind end. They were located
in the right side swing panel next to the storm door. They also
came in handy as P-wire was pretty unreliable. Sometimes the train
wouldn't release or wouldn't take power from the regular slide
handle controller but it could be moved on the hostler in the cab.
You weren't allowed to operate in service that way.
Now, with the cars being "SMEE" style and in linked sets, the
hostlers aren't needed except on the blind end of 2-car A-B
sets. They're also not the same hostler panel. I don't know what
the new one looks like. Train Dude?
When overhauled in 1990-1991, the first 200+ R-46s were delivered with a hostler. It was a small brake valve. The train operator would insert his reverser key into the device. When he depressed the key, the train charged. This was the dead-mans feature. The key also acted as a mini brake handle, too. The reverser was a three position switch and push-buttons provided switching and series positions for propulsion.
Currently only one R-46 has a hostler, car 6207 (the only A-B unit). I had the opportunity to become fairly proficient with both the GOH & the original hostler. The pre-overhaul version was more challanging to use. Incidently, it looks similar to the hostler on the blind end of the DM30s
I loved that pre-GOH hostler. I thought I had a picture of
it but now I can't find it :(
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee
Chairman Don Young, a Republican from Alaska, has asked the U.S. Surface
Transportation Board if it has "sufficient authority to prevent the
wide-spread disruptions that might result in the Northeast and elsewhere from
a shut down of Amtrak." Young specifically asked the STB June 24 if it has
"sufficient authority to direct the dispatching, maintenance, or other
operations on the Northeast Corridor that would permit continued commuter
operations, freight operations, or both in the event that Amtrak begins to
cease operations on July 1, 2002." A 1973 law authorizes the STB to respond
to certain cessations of rail service by directing another railroad
temporarily to provide that service. The cost of such directed service, not
covered by revenue from the operation, is paid by the federal government.
"The effects a shutdown of the Northeast Corridor would have on that region
of the United States would certainly be substantial and adverse," Young said.
"An Amtrak shutdown could adversely affect the economy in the Northeast
United States because shippers' freight might not be able to get to its
destination. "Moreover, commuters in the Northeast and around the country may
not be able to get to work either because the commuter authority operates on
Amtrak infrastructure or because the commuter authority uses Amtrak employees
to operate or maintain its trains," Young said. Young made no mention of
long-distance Amtrak operations outside the Northeast Corridor. The STB is
expected to respond to Young this week.
It depends who wants to play hardball with whom. My impression is Amtrak will get some kind of concessions.
The lines will operate one way or the other. If the Administration and/or Congress were cranky enough, Amtrak might find itself dumped, but I would be amazed to see this happen.
I'd be real amazed if a 1973 law authorizes the Surface Transportation Board to do anything, since the STB did not come into existence until sometime in the late 1990s.
STB was created to approve the UP take-over of Espee.
Maybe STB could give Amtrak some money to keep operating. Nah, too logical.
Bronx News 12 is reporting that Metro North has come to the Co Op City area to discuss adding a Metro North Station along the tracks that it shares with Amtrak.
I'm a little confused. Since when do they co own that part of the ROW? Up till now only the Amtrak NEC passed through there as it made its way up to the New Rochelle area where the Metro North tracks merged in. That is about 8 or 10 miles away. I guess this means that Metro North is moving ahead with adding to the New Haven line?
I even remember some talk was made about even adding a line near the Einstein/Montefiore Medical Complex. The ROW passes a block or two away from the #6 Westchester Yard. I hope that Metro North will pass through the area. It will help to deal with the overcrowding on the trains and the express busses. Plus, many commuters from NYC would profit since many of the hospital staff come from Manhattan.
In Co Op City and City Island alone you have a multitude of people whose only options are to either take a bus to the #6 at Pelham Bay or catch an express bus which doesn't come all that often.
Here is the URL to the story:
http://www.news12.com/CDA/Articles/View/0,2869,13-13-43313-29,00.html
Whatever happened to the idea of a stop at Yankee Stadium?
A Metro-North station at Co-op city would be great. Commuter rail is always viewed in a much more favorable light than the subway, so I doubt there'd be any community or political opposition to the plan.
Plus, MNRR would have to run trains to Penn Station to service the stop, something I'd love to see happen. (Yes, I know there's no space during rush hours. But what about the other 128 hours in the week!).
It would be very interesting. They would have to use cars from the New Haven line as they are the only ones equipped with the overhead AC catenary which is needed for operation along that ROW. The 3rd rail shoes would have to be modified as well because MNRR uses underriding shoes whereas LIRR uses overriding shoes.
The equipment would have to be dedicated to this line. This would be a not be a very efficient use of equipment.
Now about the fares - as a long time Co-OP City resident I don't think that most people are going to want to have to start paying higher fares where they can get into Manhattan for $1.50 each way (Bus w/free transfer to subway) or the Express bus fare (whatever that is these days).
We have heard these promises before - everything from a monorail (back in the early 1970's) to ferry service. Quite frankly I don't believe it will ever happen.
>>Now about the fares - as a long time Co-OP City resident I don't think that most people are going to want to have to start paying higher fares where they can get into Manhattan for $1.50 each way (Bus w/free transfer to subway) or the Express bus fare (whatever that is these days). <<
The express bus runs around $3. There may be a Metrocard discount. Actually, in Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil, people have the same 3 choices - local bus to subway, express bus, and MN. MN runs about $2.50 each way if you buy a monthly pass. Lots of people take either the express bus or MN -- it depends on whether they're willing to shell out a bit more for speed, a seat, and a pleasant ride -- or whether they work right near Grand Central.
The equipment would have to be dedicated to this line. This would be a not be a very efficient use of equipment.
That's why using dual mode engines instead of the M-2/4/6 cars would be better. If I remember correctly someone mentioned that some FL-9s can/could use both third rail types?
Using the MUs with overhead catenary would require adjustments for both the third rail shoes and for the train to be able to take two additional voltages (I think -- isn't the Hell Gate line different from both the New Haven and Penn Station?).
The Genesis engines, not the FL-9s are the ones with the capability to handle both overriding and underriding third rail.
I know the Amtrak Genesis engines can, and I guess by your post so can the MNRR ones. But I seem to remember someone saying that either current or past FL9s could also handle the two third rails.
I too rememeber.
"(I think -- isn't the Hell Gate line different from both the New Haven and Penn Station?). "
I think that would be very stupid.
PRR did not use Hell Gate, New Haven *did* all the way out to the car floats in Brooklyn, under the same wire.
PRR only can into Long Island to use the Sunnyside Yards as their passenger car terminal.
NH interchanged passenger cars with PRR in Penn Station.
That *is* how that GG1 got into the basement of Union Station in WAS:
Something rubbed up against the pet cock and shut the air off.
How did the NH cars get into Penn Staion.
Couldnt have had used diesels!
Could have changed engins in Sunnyside...
I don't know, mor likely to change engines on a thrugh train in a passenger station.
I had heard that NH and PRR cats only became compatible post the CR merger. But I think that this had more to do with tenssioning, so that the GG1s wouldnt pull the wires down (did so anyway IIRC)
Maybe NH had dual voltage locos.
Who will answer our riddles.... The Shadow Knows!
Elias
There is another alternative. MTA could extend third-rail power to the Coop City station or beyond. But if third-rail only MUs were used, they would constitute a shuttle service between Coop and Grand Central, and would not travel further.
That would be pretty awkward. The 3rd rail ends between Mt Vernon East & Pelham (right around the Hutch.)
Also, your would have to turn trains around in New Rochelle in order to get them from Grand Central to Co op City.
I never said it would be easy.
"Also, your would have to turn trains around in New Rochelle in order to get them from Grand Central to Co op City."
Or install new crossovers just east of the Coop City station.
Extend the ^ to co-op city and have it loop around all the buildings. there is ample room.
Extend the 6 to co-op city and have it loop around all the buildings. there is ample room.
Profiting off someone else's misery is hardly an admirable thing, but nonetheless I'm left with inescapable notion that Amtrak blew a (hopefully) once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. The opportunity, as you might have guessed, was September 11th. The events of that day left millions, probably tens of millions of Americans afraid to fly. All of a sudden Amtrak's biggest competitors - the airlines - were left fighting for their very survival. It was a superb opportunity for Amtrak to jump into the breach and offer a safe transportation alternative. Yet for an all-too-familiar litany of reasons, Amtrak dropped the ball, big time.
I bring this up because I just got back from a trip to Florida. My stepdaughter and I flew back on Southwest Airlines, after having driven down (I'll fly down by myself in July and drive back, long story). We got a flight from West Palm Beach to Baltimore, then another flight from Baltimore to Islip. And both flights were absolutely packed. During our 90-minute wait in Baltimore, moreover, there appeared to be long lines and overbooking annoucements at the other Southwest gates.
I'm glad that Southwest appears to be doing well, but it would have been so much better if Amtrak could have shared in some of the largesse. But it looks too late for that, as more and more people are back to flying. Had they tried Amtrak right after September 11th, assuming of course that Amtrak had been able to offer quality service, I'll bet many of them would have stuck with it even after flying began to appear safer. Alas, that didn't happen.
That's ridiculous, Peter. Sheer absurdity.
Amtrak did profit from the airlines' woes after September 11, and a dramatic increase in ridership is proof. And Amtrak did prod legislators to push for more funds to stabilize train service. Its ridership satayed higher and assumed a new baseline, but let's be realistic.
Longer-distance runs are not competitive with airlines, and airlines have a lot of clout. Stephen Wolf and Donald Carty throw more lobbying money at legislators in a day than George Warrington or David Gunn could in 30 years.
Besides, any PR approach which is aggressive enough to potentially offend crash victims or families could backfire. One steps carefully throughh that minefield.
Stop playing Monday Morning quarterback on this one - you'll lose the game.
Longer-distance runs are not competitive with airlines
And rail shouldn't try to compete with airlines on the long hauls. I think long-distance trains are needed for emergencies and other reasons, but I think in a wisely-planned intermodal transportation system, trains would be used for trips below a certain length, and airplanes for longer ones. On more complicated trips, say from a small town at one end of the country to a small town at the other end, one could take a train to the nearest large city, a plane to a city near the destination, and then a train to the final destination. I'd have high-speed rail stations in all the major airports, using rail for the niche that commuter airlines now occupy.
Mark
I love long-distance trains. But I know that for any trip longer than 24 hours, the reason I'm going is to have a "cruise on rails." That's reality.
However, I should point out that small towns in various places have no air service. So Amtrak or a Greyhound bus might be the only link to civilization if one does not have access to a car (or if the car has to stay close to home). It is appropriate to provide a subsidy for that. Greyhound, for example is contracted by PennDOT to provide service at an affordable price between Philadelphia and the Lehigh Valley.
Yes, some states subsidize Greyhound, others (such as North Dakota) do not. An Intra-State ticket here can be very costly, one to Montana or Minnesots less so.
I agree fully. That's what I meant when I said "I think long-distance trains are needed for emergencies and other reasons..." I just left out those "other reasons" to save time and space. But again, this is a way that air and rail can compliment each other rather than compete with each other. That is, this is an example of rail providing a service that air can't.
Mark
Amtrak did profit from the airlines' woes after September 11, and a dramatic increase in ridership is proof. And Amtrak did prod legislators to push for more funds to stabilize train service. Its ridership stayed higher and assumed a new baseline, but let's be realistic.
Longer-distance runs are not competitive with airlines, and airlines have a lot of clout. Stephen Wolf and Donald Carty throw more lobbying money at legislators in a day than George Warrington or David Gunn could in 30 years.
We seem to be forgetting the middle ground. Okay, Acela and the NE Corridor in general has picked up a lot of business, and long-distance train routes may be at too much of a disadvantage. It's very unlikely that I would have taken the train from Florida to Long Island, except maybe if there were some sort of TGV service. But how about, say, Atlanta to Orlando? Or Chicago to Denver? Or San Francisco to Las Vegas? Or New York to Detroit? These are the sort of mid-distance routes that are too long for driving to be convenient, yet not too long for reasonably fast train service. Yet the airlines have them pretty much too themselves - forcing the post-9/11 fear of flying people into long drives or staying home.
E
"Expressed confidence" does NOT mean that a deal has been made. It's STILL up to congress to actually DO something. What has changed is that Amtrak will, instead of using its last $25 million to perform an "orderly shutdown" will instead operate for five more days using that money. As a result, if congress does NOT come through with the money on time, equipment and passengers will be ABANDONED wherever they sit.
We're NOT out of the woods yet ...
Amtrak NEEDS to be shut down for a week or so. That's the only way the country will know what it's missing.
E_DOG
That would be the ultimate punishment for ultra-right wing Republicans in Congress, wouldn't it?
This particular go-round will only keep Amtrak running until OCTOBER, just WEEKS away from congressfish renewal time. If it goes down THEN, there'll be a political bloodbath for some. So for those wishing for a real kick in the teeth, some things are worth waiting for since America doesn't have much of an attention span. :)
Heh... Could be interesting. Stay tuned...
By the way, have there ever been any credible nationwide public opinion polls regarding passenger rail and/or Amtrak? I know how a few idealogues in Congress and the White House feel about it, and it wouldn't likely change what I feel is the right thing to do, but I'd be curious as to what overall public sentiment is.
Without exception, everybody I speak to here in Chicago is strongly in favor of passenger rail trevel, but then, since I live in a large city and most of my friends are at least as liberal as I am, I'm not exactly dealing with a scientific sample group.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I would guess most people are ambivalent and Amtrak wouldn't do all that well in a national "what is Brittney wearing?" poll. There are a LOT of things that government does that are invisible and "ho-hum" to the public at large. Amtrak is just one of them, but a CRITICAL one. What I have a problem with is Amtrak somehow being SEPARATE from urban mass transit as a standalone item.
If subways and busses in urban areas were CONNECTED with Amtrak as a larger picture, we probably wouldn't be here at all. To those of us in upstate New York (where Amtrak trains are PACKED) the threats against our "subway" are every bit as real to us as shutting down NYCTA. But like water, sewer and garbage pickup, Amtrak doesn't matter to many until it's not there anymore. And many would still yawn in all likelihood. Those of us upstate though WILL be toting our pitchforks and burning torches for our politicos if Amtrak goes belly-up.
The *ONE* thing that WE have going for us though is that if Amtrak DOES go down, the services Amtrak provide are *SO* critical to upstate that there's no question that New York State *WILL* take over the lines and services and what we have along the Hudson WILL continue after Amtrak goes away. No DOUBT about that. But I'd still like to take the train to Chicago, Montreal or Boston and that wouldn't be likely if this comes to pass ...
Does Amtrak need reform? Yes. Does it need more money? Yes. Does it need to die? NO. Things need fixing, let's do it but don't mess with my ride. :)
What the anti-transit Republicans really don't understand is just how much of the commuter network is owned by Amtrak, e.g., Penn Station, and what shutting down Amtrak would mean. As I've posted before, it will be Republican fatcats who will make the obscene phone calls to Republican Congressmen, about how their employees can't get to work, how much money they are losing, how rapidly their inner-city high rise buildings are going to lose their value, etc.
Nor have they really calculated the cost new highways to replace the NEC would cost. One figure I heard was something obscene like $70 billion, vs. the $7 billion the NEC needs.
Letting Amtrak go belly up a month before the Congressional midterm elections will only serve Democrats. This is something most Republicans do understand, but they will doubtless nonetheless cut off their noses to spite their faces.
Were I a Democrat, I'd quietly let the Republicans have their way, just to point a finger at the resulting debacle.
I tell ya, I SINCERELY wish there was a THIRD party available that wasn't chock full'o'loonies ... but so far, every third party has been something out of a Warner Brothers cartoon. Until there's something for the Republicrats to fear, we can ALL go to hell ...
What the anti-transit Republicans understand damn well is that the oil industry donates millions to their party, and if there is no trains, more people will be driving and using more gas.
The REAL DEAL here is I fear a RR cabal to gut the one pice of the ATK originating law which they hate. TH RIGHT TO RUN TRAINS OVER SPECIFIC ROUTES. The quid pro quo for "relieving" the RRs of the "passenger deficits" was that ATK would have mandated access to those routes for 'their' trains. If that legalism ever gets crushed the whole game is over. The genuises who run "speedy" intermodals at 25-40 mph sure are keen on getting rid of those pesky 50-80 mph ATK trains which "get in their way".
Problem with AMTK according to them is that they want to run on a specific SCHEDULE,
Something that modern freight carriers do not want to do.
So look.
We build these fancy new HSRs along the existing I ROWs.
And then we can pick up 70% of their fast intermodal stuff such as mail and UPS.
Heck UPS delivers lightweight aluminum containers (smae as used on airplanes) Load them up and move them out during a 5 min station stop, deliver them right to the airport...
Heck, we can take down the short hop airtraffic, the inter city auto traffic, some of the turk traffic and some of the stuff carried on heavy rail....
No wonder they don't like my plan!
Elias
SHutting down for 1 or 2 weeks is stupid, did you forget that if they shut down, it will f*** up NYC badly and affect other Commuter Railroads in the US, mainly in the Northeast?????
Nah, NYC will do fine. There are buses, and planes which will take up the slack. Why do you think that if Amtrak stopped, the world would shut down? People will be inconvienced, but that will be the extent. As for Lirr, MTANYCT buses will take people from Jamaica to midtown. I don't think that it would be worse than when the Penn line was shut down a couple of times this year.
People will then realize that more funding for Amtrak will needed. The only way to make some people to realize how important Amtrak really is, is to for them to actually see what a mess it would be without it.
The only way to make some people to realize how important Amtrak really is, is to for them to actually see what a mess it would be without it.
Exactly. And in purely partisan terms, it will crucify the Republicans this fall. Pataki will likely lose -- all those LI Republicans who can't take the LIRR into Penn Station. For Congressional races, it could be decisive in giving the House back to the Democrats: this will be the bitter pill Dennis Hastert and Tom DeLay will have to swallow, and I pray no Democrat helps the Republicans to sweeten it.
That's the whole idea; to get everybodys attention they need to shut it down.
E_DOG
But I also see your point of view, probably the US government will finally realize what they gotta do.
Well, there *is* only so much oil, and once it is burned it is all gone. No more. Maybe these guys want to get all of the money from it now and not leave any for their grandkids to earn.
More to the point, I am affraid, is that we, all of us, consumer and seller alike, are using the stuff like it is going out of style, as if it will always be around.
I want you to take a look at a population curve of the world, since time began until now, and you will see a long slow rise (Like the darn line is almost flat horizontal!) in the population of humans, and then about the time of Christ, the poulation takes a sharp turn upward, dang near almost vertical.
Now that *is* a natural curve. And I have read that there are more people alive today than there are dead (since the beginning of time).
Keep in mind what a natural curve looks like, it is not going to "flatten" out again, and it cannot keep going up forever. It MUST go back down the way it went up, just like it did for the dionosaurs.
In my humble and off-topic opinion this crash will not happen because of a neuclear explosion, or because the third world over ran everything. According to me, it will happen when we run out of fuel.
Maybe 300 more years you think? Won't be *my* problem. Problem is too many people have just said that by thier actions: buring fuel needlessly to fly airplanes, or drive cars. Rush Rush Rush... And I don't mean a talk show host. We *could* slow down and enjoy our lifespan a little.
Ak.. what the heck
Elias
There is an unlimited form of fuel in the form of the sun. At the time the sun turns into a red giant and sucks up the Earth, those people living at that time will arrange an evacuation of Earth, in which people are placed in spaceships to rise to a new home in the heavens in another star system.
Meanwhile, those crazies who don't want to leave Earth will stay behind, and the Earth will be sucked up in a fiery cataclysm.
I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination, but whoever wrote the bible (more than one person) knew what he was talking about.
Doesn't mean I'll start believe in a higher power any time soon.
Damn, how depressing...................
Well, since that's not supposed to happen for another 3 1/2 billion years or so, hopefully the Amtrak situation will have been sorted out by then :-)
lol.....
I'm pretty sure 5 billion years from now, humans (or whatever form we turn into) would have been extinct for a good 2 billion years or so. Honestly, I wouldn't be suprised if humans die out within 200 years, but that's a theory I thought of myself (humans are devolving mentally), and isn't appropiate for this forum for me to explain.
and isn't appropiate for this forum for me to explain.
True, but isn't it funny how we all know what you mean....no explanation necessary....
Shut it down (or another controversial post)
Actually I agree with that even though it would inconvenience a lot of people. People don't realize how good they have it until something they rely on is gone. Amtrak is taken for granted by everyone involved.
The current adminstration is not saying much, except for the former mayor of San Jose saying that money is on the way. Except for the NEC, Amtrak is not a railroad or a line, but a service. Tax payers should not expect a service to make a profit since the service does not have shareholders in a term used by Wall Street. The Post Office is another service and Congress never mandated it makes a profit, but at least to break even.
The first year that Amtrak ran was under the GOP adminstration with the hopes that Amtrak would fail. The other party kept it alive, but kept it on a shoe string budget. The GOP is running the show now, but the big GOP man himeselt has not come out to say anything, instead the former mayor of San Jose, a nonGOP member of the adminstration, is not really saying anything new.
Amtrak should shut down, at least to reorganize. Too many layers of bubby-buddy positions in management. Dave Gunn has to do what he has to do. The last railroader that "ran" Amtrak was the former CEO of Southern Railway. Do you know who he was?
The current adminstration is not saying much, except for the former mayor of San Jose saying that money is on the way. Except for the NEC, Amtrak is not a railroad or a line, but a service. Tax payers should not expect a service to make a profit since the service does not have shareholders in a term used by Wall Street. The Post Office is another service and Congress never mandated it makes a profit, but at least to break even.
The first year that Amtrak ran was under the GOP adminstration with the hopes that Amtrak would fail. The other party kept it alive, but kept it on a shoe string budget. The GOP is running the show now, but the big GOP man himeselt has not come out to say anything, instead the former mayor of San Jose, a nonGOP member of the adminstration, is not really saying anything new.
Amtrak should shut down, at least to reorganize. Too many layers of bubby-buddy positions in management. Dave Gunn has to do what he has to do as he is a true RAILROAD man. The last railroader that "ran" Amtrak was the former CEO of Southern Railway. Do you know who he was?
Amen!
That makes perfect sense. While we're at it, let's shut down fire fighting in Colorado and Arizona, so people will know what they're missing.
After all, in decades of operation the smoke jumpers of the Forest Service have yet to turn any profit!
Mark
Interestingly, the Chicago Tribune has an editorial in today's paper advocating pretty much the same thing, albiet for different reasons. Their position is that a shutdown and bankruptcy would give Amtrak breathing room to re-structure itself and ditch some liabilities. No mention is made about how this would impact commuter rail operations nationwide. (This is the first mention the Trib has made of Amtrak since this whole crisis was announced about a week ago, even though almost every other paper has been closely following the story.)
In somewhat of a departure from previous Trib editorials regarding Amtrak, they seem to take a more reasoned approach this time around, and they've finally admitted that Amtrak was designed to fail from the start, that passenger rail is worthy of government support, and it's silly to expect passenger trains to be profitable. (Their tone in previous editorials has been more like the John McCain party line.) So maybe there's hope after all.
Here's the editorial: Choo-chooing to another bailout
(This link will probably require registration on the Trib's site if you're not already registered. It's free and takes 30 seconds, and they won't flood you with spam. If you're too lazy to do that, don't bitch and whine to me about not being able to follow the link.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I just saw this totally insane report on MSNBC. It stated that some woman laid on the subway tracks after going into a subway tunnel to sleep. She was injured and sued the MTA for $14,100,000. What is our legal system coming to if someone can sue a public transportation system, for an injury that in my opinion was totally self inflicted, and not negligence on the part of the subway system! The jury awarded her $14 million, and she finally was awarded $9 million as it was determined she was only 30% responsible for her injury for going into the tunnel and lying on the tracks, and the subway system was 70% responsible for running trains on their tracks, in their tunnel where she was lying. Her attorney claims she deserves the money because she was injured by the train, and it was devastating to her. But what the hell was she doing in the tunnel on the tracks?!?!? I can see a lawsuit if she was injured by let’s say a broken platform and she fell in front of a train, but this is ludicrous to me.!
I posted The Link to the Times article this morning.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, I just noticed that, I didn't see that post when I posted......
70% responsible for running trains on their tracks, in their tunnel where she was lying.
The sheer stupidity
Utterly nuts......
The problem, sadly, is a lot of juries basically think the "Money Fairy" magically comes down and just creates $14 million or whatever the settlement is. They feel sorry for the victim, even if its 100 percent their fault, and never stop to think that the cash actually has to come from somewhere, whether or not it's a state agency or (in other cases) a private business that end up having to either raise their fees/fares or pay higher insurance costs because of verdicts like this.
One of the reasons why Bush did so well in his Texas guberatorial re-election in 1998 was his passage of tort reform for the state that outlawed "jury shopping," where if someone fell down in a J.C. Penney in Dallas, their lawyer could shop around to any county in the state that had a J.C. Penney, find the county with the most "sympathetic" (i.e. -- pro-plaintiff) juries, and hold the trial there. The trial lawyers howled, but settlements in lawsuits like this dropped sharply after cases had to be filed in the county they originated in.
Maybe I missed something. Why was she in the tunnel? Was she in a hurry to get home and the trains were not running? Was she attacked by a mugger and she escaped by running ihn the tunnel?
She was sleeping in the tunnel
It's a bloody shame she did not use the third rail as a pillow.
Forgive a dumb question. But why would a woman be sleeping in a subway tunnel?
Attempted suicide.
Why would someone attempting suicide be sleeping?
I don't know what happened. I'm just trying to find out what happened.
I don't think she was sleeping. I think she was lying there attempting suicide.
People who kill themselves are dumb enough, think about people who fail even at that?
With all this talking about the woman and how she won $14M or $9M, I noticed there is no mention where this happened.
Southbound 8th avenue local tracks, just north of 34th Street station.
There is no clear answer as to why the woman was there. There was evidence presented that indicated she was trying to commit suicide. From what I've read, her explanation in court was that she was not trying to commit suicide, and did not know how she got down onto the tracks.
While the jury verdict is astounding, it really isn't shocking. Things this ridiculous happen all the time. I just can't believe that NYCT let this case get to a trial.
CG
From what I've read, her explanation in court was that she was not trying to commit suicide, and did not know how she got down onto the tracks.
It's so ludicrous!!!!! She apparently "conveniently" has amnesia about the whole occurence. That was actually used in the case.....she has "no" idea how or why she was on the tracks!
The rateous are her clients.
Repeat that answer again? It sounds like a statement by her attorney.
No, the 12-9ed women gets money for fornificating with the rats.
Exactly. You've figured out why a jury awarded her $14M.
-Hank
>>Exactly. You've figured out why a jury awarded her $14M.
-Hank<<
Or was that 9.9 million ?....Either way, she won't be depressed anymore. She'll quit her job, buy a condo or house and vacation in Europe. But it really sucks that more than NYCT is paying for this. Maybe somewhere along the line, you and are are ponying up a dollar or two. Maybe we should give the Darwin Award(s) to the jury instead of her.
Bill "Newkirk"
What did I figure exactly?
Maybe I missed something. Why was she in the tunnel? Was she in a hurry to get home and the trains were not running? Was she attacked by a mugger and she escaped by running ihn the tunnel?
Her moron of an attorney said it can be any of those things. Apparently the woman conveniently also has amnesia about the whole incidence......you can't make this stuff up!!!!
This lawsuit is a total fraud. I don't understand How can that DUMB BITCH can gets away with it. AND who are these dumb juries became stupid enough to award that TRAMP a $9 million. And where does the jury administrator get those dumb people serve as a juror. This is not right! This lawsuit is a total fraud. The whole subway injuries incident was intentionally and deliberately cause by the this fraud woman ("DUMB BITCH" IN ANOTHER WORD).
she was only 30% responsible for her injury for going into the tunnel and lying on the tracks, and the subway system was 70% responsible for running trains on their tracks, in their tunnel where she was lying.
It should be viesa versa. 99.999% where she was responsible for her own injuries. 1.0% where subway system was responsible for running trains on their tracks, in their tunnel where she was lying.
If you take the IQ of these jurors, and square it, it becomes numerically smaller (means that there IQ is a decimal point for those who don't appreciate my cheesy math joke).
Its not a cheesy math joke, its a true IQ estimates for these people. And they don't know sh** about law.
And they can't even tell the difference between 30% and 70%.
Its just sick to my stomach to see those fraud uses lawsuit to get what they want. Of course lawsuit became a common court cases because these low life losers looking forward to start their retirement early. They want to sit their ass at home, quit their jobs and collect hardworking taxpayer's money. They are stupid enough to think that money easily comes around and goes around. These people are truely a bad news in this society. Its so sad that the judical system let them get away with it.
Actually, I don't see a problem with what they're doing (GAW?). This person was horribly maimed of her own stupidity. Obviously she's not going to want to live with it, she'll want some compensation. As it stands, she doesn't deserve compensation, but that's the fault of the laws that exist that allow her to collect it.
Also, I would love to sit around on my ass in a boatload of money while doing absolutely nothing. If you say you don't, then you're either lying or braindead.
If I had the oppurtunity to collect millions though a route that was perfectly legal, I'd do it. It's the fault of the laws to allow such a legal avenue to exist in the first place.
Nevertheless, my limbs are more important than money.
{Also, I would love to sit around on my ass in a boatload of money while doing absolutely nothing. If you say you don't, then you're either lying or braindead.}
NO PIG!, my point was there is no reason to sue other for his or her own stupidity mistake, and YES, I would sit around on my ass in a boatload of money while doing absolutely nothing. And I sure everyone the world would love live that life. With million of $$$$$$$$$ in your pocket you don't have to worry about getting rent and bills paid on time. And you don't have to worry about paying back your college loan with interest. You can get whatever you wanted. Lets not forget $$$ doesn't grow on the tree and fall off from tree waiting to be picked.
Also, I agree that its fault of the laws that exist that allow her to collect it. WHY? Our government doesn't give a sh** our financial well being. They tossed our taxdollars like garbage.
Lastly, I don't approve the judge's decision. He find that he just as STUPID as these Juries were. You said that my knowledge of law is as dismal as your knowledge of language. Well, Your attitude was as DISMAL as your knowledge of insult. :)
NO PIG!, my point was there is no reason to sue other for his or her own stupidity mistake
The reason to sue is to strike the jackpot. This person only got the ability to sue as a result of her stupidity, but her stupidity is not WHY she sued.
Our government doesn't give a sh** our financial well being. They tossed our taxdollars like garbage.
We can agree!
Lastly, I don't approve the judge's decision. He find that he just as STUPID as these Juries were.
The judge really had no choice. The jury ruled. I don't remember but I think he actually LOWERED the award. How would that make him stupid?
Well, Your attitude was as DISMAL as your knowledge of insult.
I don't see where you're going with this. Do you think I don't know how to insult, or that you consider the proficiency of such knowledge to be a dismal quality?
Either way, I agree about the first part :-)
{The judge really had no choice. The jury ruled. I don't remember but I think he actually LOWERED the award. How would that make him stupid?}
$9 Million is alot money. But, it wasn't as much as $14 million. $9 Million is still alots of $$$$$$money. And I'm sure you also wish u could have that kind of cash. And the judge is still stupid enough to let her gets away with that kind of cash.
The jury is responsible for lowering the award. They found that the woman had damages to the tune of $14M and that she was 30% responsible for her situation. The judge simply applied the law and assigned the TA a 70% share of $14M -- $9.8M.
The many comments on this board not withstanding, I suspect that the TA's legal team are the ones most responsible for an award of this magnitude. How they let a case like this get to trial before a NYC jury is beyond belief.
CG
"They found that the woman had damages to the tune of $14M", how would one calculate this? Hmm let's see, arm and a leg, 1M, emotional distress, 5M, and throw in a couple of million to make her happy.
How about the $500 million trial about a drunk who was forced off a train and then fell under it?
I forgot, did he win and get all his 500 mil?
If RESPONSIBLE people took their civic responsibility to serve on jury duty seriously, they wouldn't have to choose juries from the underpriveliged and unemployed. Next time YOU get a summons to servr jury duty, take the time off and serve...most employers will continue your regular pay, and most unions require it.
There's a lot of truth to what you just said.
While there is a lot of truth to what you say, the sad reality is that the jury selection process allows litigators (on both sides) to eliminate candidates who may actually give some thought to the arguments and not react on a purely emotional level.
I have been called for jury duty 3 times so far. I have never postponed, but I have never been selected to be on a case. I don't expect that I ever will.
CG
If RESPONSIBLE people took their civic responsibility to serve on jury duty seriously, they wouldn't have to choose juries from the underpriveliged and unemployed.
Agreed. But first you have to get called. I have been called four times in my life - three times within one year while I was in grad school (I served all three times) and a fourth time in 1995 (before jury selection was completed the defendant decided to accept the plea bargain that had been offered). That's a gap of twenty years between the first three calls and the fourth, and I haven't been called since. My wife has NEVER been called in her entire life. I'm not sure how they decide who gets called in the first place, but since we don't exactly hide it's not because they can't find us :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We are talking about $9 million here. If those juries reverse the verdict, that part of the money could be the use for building a second ave subway.
"reverse" I mean "overturn"
Sorry, but appeals are decided by judges.
Your knowledge of law is as dismal as your knowledge of language.
Hopefully, the verdict will be substantially reduced or even overturned on appeal. That often happens, but rarely do we hear about it.
"Hopefully, the verdict will be substantially reduced or even overturned on appeal. That often happens, but rarely do we hear about it. "
Often, having grounds for appeal is enough to induce a plaintiff to agree to substantially reduce an award. Unfortunately, there hasn't been anything in the press reports which would indicate that there is any grounds for an appeal. I do not believe that a jury's finding of liability or the amount of damages is subject to appeal.
CG
I think the train operator ought to sue the woman for some of the proceeds. After all, she put the train operator through mental anguish over what she did.
That is a damn good idea, lets take up a collection and get him a kickass lawyer, this lady, and I use the term lightly, needs to have her pockets lightened. We are always hearing about the 'mental anguish' that train hit survivors, either voluntary or accidental, go through, and there was recently a very good post on here all about what the T/Os and Engineers go through after such an incident. It's about time the rail industry and railroad employees showed the little whiners some teeth.
Another reason for railfan windows... Maybe an ordinary railfan may not be able to win a suit for mental anguish (I mean, that'd be like someone suing the TA for letting them lay down in front of the train and winning!) but I'll bet that if a child was peering out the window when that happened, the parents would be all over the crazy bitch.
Too bad they didn't televise her. If people got a good look at her and the newspeople put an appropriate slant on it, she'd have to move out of NYC!
Don't be silly. The parents would also have filed a suit against Transit for exposing their child to this potentially devastating scene.
Membership fees to see/be in the transverse cab. With photo ID card. And the MTA has encouragement to keep the subways railfan friendly, since railfans generated money, albit a small amount.
The train staff are as inhuman as the steel that the train is made up of, in the eyes of the law.
Big bad train hit a lady sleeping in a subway tunnel. It doesn't matter why she was sleeping in the tunnel. The fact is a big bad train hit a lady. Award my client her $14Million before the TA attorney argues wisely and disproves my illogical emotional reasoning. Then my client won't get a dime and quite frankly neither will I.
The train staff are as inhuman as the steel that the train is made up of, in the eyes of the law.
"is work taking away from family events,...are you feeling tired from work, well we have a solution for you... SUE YOUR BOSS!, you see, the great thing about this country is that you can sue almost anyone for anything and youll probably win*!!!!... we can even train you to throw youreself in front of a bus, and pretend to be injured!!!!"
*or at least get a settlement
-Raken and Ponzer personal attorneys(from GTAIII)
LOL!!LMAO!!
Escuse my foul language but this is a load of bullshit. Then again this is America. The country where stupidity and money hungry capitalistic lawyers dominate over common sense. No wonder the rest of the world can't stand us. I hope the MTA appeals this decision.
and money hungry capitalistic lawyers dominate
And the report mentioned that an attorney typically can get up to 30% of any money awarded, so the woman's attorney stands to make about $3 million out of the $9 million. No wonder you have attorneys willing to take ludicrous cases like this. And no wonder the MTA has trouble getting anything like the 2 Ave subway built. How can productive things get done when you have to deal with nonsense lawsuits like this.
Don't equate Capitalism with something that's bad.
It's the only way that works.
CAPITALISM FOREVER!
Well, an obvious question, after reading the article is, why were they running trains after they knew there was someone lying on the tracks? Why didn't they suspend service on the tracks until they resolved the problem? They sent out an alert, ergo, they believed someone was there, no? Why didn't they send someone (i.e. Transit Cops) down to the roadbed?
If you read editorials like this one, (and by way, that was an EDITORIAL, not a news story...very big difference) you have to take into account that the writer is leaving out facts to support his opinion. That is the major, and defining, difference between news and opinion.
If The TA suspended service everytime a report of unauthorized persons on the roadbed came in, you would get nowhere real fast.
"If The TA suspended service everytime a report of unauthorized persons on the roadbed came in, you would get nowhere real fast. "
That is true, but this was a report that a person was lying on the tracks. That is very different from an unauthorized person in the track area.
Not that I agree with the jury's decision, but this is the likely reason behind it (that and the belief that money grows on trees).
CG
Well, an obvious question, after reading the article is, why were they running trains after they knew there was someone lying on the tracks?
That's the central point for NYCT's negligence. If the TA did not have prior knowledge that somebody was lying on the tracks, they would not have been found negligent. However, they reportedly had 6 minutes warning and failed to take sufficient action. That is negligence under the law.
I'd like to know where these kind of lawyers are when I needed one. My last case [divorce], had I had 1/10 the lawyer some of these conscience-less [censored] are I'd have gotten justice instead of being taken royally. Every time I needed a lawyer seems they always sat in the back seat and let the other side drive; but then they didn't stand to get a third or a half of millions that the greedy plaintiff got.Deep pockets? Baloney...you and I pay in the long run, whether its in fares, price of goods or services, INSURANCE premiums.Same for courts too....rewarding people for their own stupidity and sometimes bad intents. You can be robbed and sued too if a thief is injured on your property. Garbage to put it mildly.
You can be robbed and sued too if a thief is injured on your property.
In an episode of "Married With Children," Al subdued a thief that came into the Bundy house. The thief then went on to sue them! In the end, Al lost, so he decided to beat up the plaintiff. Al then won a $100,000 suit (more than the thief's $50,000) for hurting his hand when he punched the thief in the courtroom.
this is totally off topic but the result was just the same.i just read that an appeals court considered public schools saying the pledge of alligience was unconstitutional so that means that public schools in 9 states wont be able to have thier students say the pledge anymore.just like that verdict of the woman getting $14million,
this is just as stupid and ridiculous.heck when president bush heard about it he even said it was ridiculous.and its all because the pledge has the word "God" in it.i wonder whats the next stupid thing the courts are gonna do thats just as stupid as they are themselves.
Watch out. Soon God Bless America would be unconstitutional
You read the news tonight? A Supreme Court Justice on the west coast ruled The Pledge of alligience is unconstutional because of the phraise "One nation, under God".
more specifically, just the part "...under God", which was added in the 50s.
Peace,
ANDEE
I heard about this on a commercial during 60 minutes II (so I decided to record tomorrow's evening news), and all I can say is: BRAVO!
Schools forcing students to recite the pledge of allegiance is wrong, especially forcing them to say the "under god" part.
And what the hell is the point of pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth? I can understand if one pledges allegiance to the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, but this is ridiculous.
Oh yes, I'm sure everybody has forgotten this by now, but when the pledge of allegiance was devised, people didn't recite it with their right hand on their hearts, but rather with their right hand raised forward into the air, palm open and fingers together. This practice ended with World War II. I wonder why.
The pledge of allegiance was created by a socialist who wanted to brainwash immigrants into abandoning their old allegiances. I don't see any problem with the latter, but the better way would be to teach the fundamental principles of this country, not by pledging allegiance to the almighty rectangular cloth.
The Strange Origin of the Pledge of Allegiance
Interesting link.
I agree. Then again, I also think that December 25 has no business being a national holiday -- it's a religious holiday for the members of a particular religion. (January 1 is arguably in the same category.)
Then again, I also think that December 25 has no business being a national holiday -- it's a religious holiday for the members of a particular religion
It may have started as a religious holiday, but do you really think most people are thinking of the religious aspect of it when they are shopping for gifts or giving or recieving them? Commercialism has destroyed any religious aspect of it left. And for anyone who's religious beliefs don't include Christmas or the gift giving, they might as well just enjoy the day off....
It may have started as a religious holiday, but do you really think most people are thinking of the religious aspect of it when they are shopping for gifts or giving or recieving them? Commercialism has destroyed any religious aspect of it left.
That's not my problem; I'm not a Christian. Isn't there a special mass associated with the day, at the very least?
And for anyone who's religious beliefs don't include Christmas or the gift giving, they might as well just enjoy the day off....
No thanks -- I'd rather have the day off on a day that I can't work due to one of my holidays. Making holiday arrangements in the fall is a challenge for observant Jews, who have to take off seven days in a month -- two consecutive days (and the same two consecutive days!) in the first, third, and fourth weeks and the next day in the second. (There are six other such days in the spring and early summer, but they're not so closely clustered. I'm only referring here to the holidays when observant Jews believe that work is actually prohibited, not other holidays when it might be nice but not obligatory to spend the day with family or friends.)
This (off-topic) issue has come up here in at least one past December; you can find my comments in the archives, if you're interested.
I agree. I don't have a problem with January 1 as it is the start of the year under our calendar.
Of course, the calendar isn't even a Christian calendar, it's a Roman calendar that the Christians adopted and 12/25 was a pagan holiday (The Solstice/Feast of Saturnalia/Yule) adopted as a Christian holiday.
Thats right.
But with the end of the Roman Empire, the Rights for arranging the Calandar for the whole world resolved to the Popes.
All emndations to such have been made / approved by the pope ever since.
: ) Elias
Of course, the calendar isn't even a Christian calendar, it's a Roman calendar that the Christians adopted and 12/25 was a pagan holiday (The Solstice/Feast of Saturnalia/Yule) adopted as a Christian holiday.
The reason was really that one form of the Solstice Feast was Natalis Solis Invicti - the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun (i.e. Mithras). Constantine of course decided that Sol Invictus was not Mithras after all but Jesus the Nazarene.
That's would be the Solstice, since it's the shortest day of the year, and at that point the day begins to grow longer (like a person becomes bigger).
I would say that the flag represents the the Constitution and Declaration, and all that for which they stand. As such, reciting the pledge is saying that you would live your life by the principals expressed in those documents. As such, 'under god' does not belong.
-Hank
Then you can recite a pledge to those principles before the flag, but thing about the first few words of the pledge:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag..."
How can you pledge allegiance to a CLOTH?
It's like saying "Greetings almighty rock, you are my master, I shall do your bidding." We shouldn't worship inanimate objects, and for religious Christians and Jews, it violates the Second Commandment, so you have to get rid of either the references to the flag or to God. I prefer the first option.
If they want to have a good pledge, they shouldn't remove under god (well, they should, but not first), but rather should remove "the flag of" and "and to the republic for which it stands" so it would read: "I pledge allegiance to the United States of America, one nation, (under god,) indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
That would be tolerable. I still wouldn't want to force children to say it in school.
.i wonder whats the next stupid thing the courts are gonna do thats just as stupid as they are themselves.
US currency will be declared unconstitutional because of the emblem "In God We Trust" plainly printed on them. THEN you'll see all sorts of activity on Wall Street :)
--Mark
1)How many R143s are in service at around 7AM-9AM on the L line?
2)Is there a set schedule for it/them and if so does anyone have it?
Any answer is greatly appreciated, and I apologize if anyone has asked for info related to this before. There are so many R143 threads and I only looked at a few. Thanks.
One time I saw 3 on the Canarsie line being operational one morning. But I think the Avg is 2. I dont think there is a SET schedule.
I don't think there is a schedule for the R-143 to come through at a certain time because all kinds of problems could go wrong, but who knows?? I do know that the R-143 does not run on the Weekends.
I was on the L this morning, and it looked like there were about 4 or 5 trainsets of R-143's running. I doubt if they're on any particular schedule. Interestingly, the one I rode from 8th Avenue to Canarsie left each of those two terminals before the R-42 trainset that had arrived at the terminal just ahead of it. Perhaps the operators grab the R-143 as soon as they see it!
I heard there are 4 to 5 sets running. Why not park yourself at Myrtle/Wycoff on a bench and wait for one? It is approximately the mid-point of the line and the route is a short one. I doubt if you'd wait more than 20 minutes for one.
I saw four sets in operation today, with at least two more sets in the yard in Canarsie.
When I rode the L from Union Square to Canarsie on June 17, two sets of R-143s came into the station headed towards Eighth Ave. before a third set came in on the Canarsie-bound side. If that's what they're doing every day, then it may be that all the sets are running bunched together and are sent out about the same time in the morning. So if you happen to miss the last one in the group at some specific stop, it may be a while before the next one comes around.
Yeah the four sets I saw today were pretty bunched together. I'd say the four sets were mixed within a group of about 9 trains.
When I rode the L from Union Square to First Ave. on June 17, two sets of R-143s came into the station headed towards Eighth Ave. before a third set came in on the Canarsie-bound side. If that's what they're doing every day, then it may be that all the sets are running bunched together and are sent out about the same time in the morning. So if you happen to miss the last one in the group at some specific stop, it may be a while before the next one comes around.
Well hello there Rip Van Winkle !
Tuesday at 5:30 PM 10 of us took the R-143 to the end where we saw the Red Bird school cars.
Mr rt__:^)
Some time ago, someone posted a link to Amtrak passenger cars. Is there a similar site for locomotives- AEM7, 6xx series, etc.
Yes. David Gunn is putting them on Ebay. LOL
My first hit on a Google search of "amtrak locomotives" was Lexcie’s Pictorial Guide to Common Amtrak Locomotives
. It looks like a good place to start.
That has the "common" Amtrak locomotives -- what would anyone consider "UNCOMMON" ???
I noted the absence of the Congress leader Hastert locomotives in the collection ... as well as the new Amtrak Reform Sleeper coach.
On Track On Line has the roster of Amtrak motive power. Hope that this helps.
Chaohwa
Thank you!
I went railfanning on the Gladstone Branch this past Saturday and while riding the Waterfront Connection to Hoboken, you can get a close up of the MMC yard (and the Gladstone Branch that goes to Gladstone).
As a surprise, I spotted ALP-46 #4603 and #4605 coupled together coupled behind an ALP-44 loco! (Sorry I didn't note the ALP-44 #)
A third one was suspiciously wrapped (?) with white sheets on the farther tracks.
These trains look pretty neat. For those who haven't seen go to www.hobokenterminal.com. It was the very first time I laid my eyes on them.
Also, I found numerous (I spotted 3) refurbished Comet II's #5311, and #5452. They looked almost identical to the Comet IV's it was coupled to so I had to look at both aspects if there was a center door, and the car number.
An Arrow III was inside the shop during the night we came back on the Gladstone train.
The MMC is just full of surprises every time you go see it.
That lash up of ALP44's & ALP46's was still there today. I observed them overhead riding on a bus on the NJ Turnpike.
Yeah, the MMC is cool. I always enjoy passing it by train. I can't wait to see an ALP46 in person!
it's interesting to note, the ALP-46 is basically a slightly redesigned version of the German Class 101 electric. Mostly in terrms of a slight body change and the typical FRA oversized grab bar everywhere, etc stuff. Continuous rating of 7,100. They are a sub 100 ton locomotive. The class has been running in Germany for a feew years, and is a derivative of the Lok 2000. Modern features include underfloor transformer (the asile between cabs goes right down the center!), fully suspended traction motors (though not body mounted)
, liquid cooled inverters (though dated GTO technology, the Prima based diesels NJT ordered are IGBT), monobody construction. Interestingtly, it's a short wheelbase design, but designed for high stability.
Top speed in service will be about 100mph (I believe they ordered 110mph gearing). IIRC, the TE (starting?) was expected to be in the order of 75,000lbs - mostly the same as the HHP-8, though the HHP-8 was desgned for a somewhat higher service speed.
It looks like NJT bought what is effectively a more powerful, yet same weight replacement for their ALP-44s.
NJT has ordered 29, so far, at the price of 4.7 million a piece.
The HHP-8 is 7.2 million a piece, and is a brand new, untested design. I tried to find specs on it, but neither Bombardier nor Alstom seem to want to acknowlage the existence of it. Weight is 11 tons heavier than the ALP-46.
The Acela Express locomotives are the same weight as the ALP-46, but 1000 HP less (though set up for 165mph operation)
To compare - a P-42 is 137 tons, less than half the HP, and features an obsolete DC traction system. It's actually heavier than the F-40 - it still has to service a HEP load, and this kills about 500 - 1000 HP off the power available for traction generation, which in turn is about 80% of what's left. Thus you see an input to the traction motors of around 3000 hp.
In terms of HP:weight, the HHP-8 has the honor of having the highest HP:weight ratio of any locomotive in North America - but the ALP-46 is very close (less than 2 hp / ton difference), as is the AEM-7/ALP44. All around 70hp per ton. Both have nearly 3 times as much power per ton as the GE P-42 (21 hp:ton), and both have 10HP more per ton that the Acela locomotives.
FWIW, the M-1 has 11hp per ton, but of course, a 12 car M-1 train has 11hp per ton, a 12 car train pulled by any locomotive has...less. But an 8 car ALP-46 train will have 14hp per ton, pulling comet cars, assuming the comets are 50 tons a pop (which they just about average out to). A 12 car comet train will be about 10hp:ton.
The M-7s will be comming in at 16hp:ton, I believe.
It looks like NJT bought what is effectively a more powerful, yet same weight replacement for their ALP-44s.
The ALP-44's weigh 102 tons, or 204,000 lbs. ALP-46's weigh 99.2 tons.
The Acela Express locomotives are the same weight as the ALP-46, but 1000 HP less (though set up for 165mph operation)
An AMTRAK engineer told one of the SubTalkers that one AE train went 225mph during passenger operation. I didn't believe it at first.
But an 8 car ALP-46 train will have 14hp per ton, pulling comet cars, assuming the comets are 50 tons a pop (which they just about average out to). A 12 car comet train will be about 10hp:ton.
A Comet II car is 84,000 lbs. while a Comet IV ranges from 104,000 to 113,000 lbs. whether if it has a bathroom or a cab car.
Come to think of it I don't mind the non-refurbished Comet II's. The orange seats in the summer make me feel warm through the light A/C.
Speaking of the color of the Comet II seats, do you know which cars have the Arrow II-style seats? I asked about this before but don't know if I got an answer. I ran into one of these cars a while back on the RVL. The aisle seat of the two seaters and the middle seat of the three seaters were black. Also, there was no red tab to reverse the seat (as in there never was, not as in they took it out). I think the car I ended up on also had an old (1980s) map showing many closed stations.
The Arrow III's had those seats before they were rebuilt (also had green/blue in some cars).
I don't know of any loco-hauled cars that have those seats, except the Comet II's, but like you said they are all orange.
Anybody know what type of seats the original Arrow I's had?
Also, Railfan Pete said the orange seats make you feel warm -- classic!
It is pretty well known that if people are in a room with lots of "warm" colors (red, orange, brown, et al) they will eventually feel hot, and likewise, if they are in a room with a lot of "cool" colors (green, blue, purple, et al), they will eventually feel chilly, EVEN IF the room temperature of both rooms is EXACTLY the same!
I'm pretty sure the car was a Comet II, at least within the Comet II numbering, but I have no idea of where. Maybe one of the first 5600s would make sense, since the Arrow III predates the Comet II and they may have originally asked for the same seats before changing their order. Or, it could be a high 5800 since they may have realized the seats were annoying with the red tabs and asked for the old style seats. Or, it could be anywhere in the numbering as a test project to replace all the seats with surplus from the Arrow IIIs as they were being GOH'ed and after one or two cars they gave up!
Or, the car could have been GOH'ed already and I should probably not bother looking for it any more.
What color were the original Arrow II seats? Amongst the railcars that NJT uses (I've ridden almost all of them), the Comet I's, Comet 2B's, and the Comet IB (rebuilt Arrow I's) all have brown seats, but they are fixed. The seat design is different. The seats face forward on one half of the train, and after the sealed window on the center door area on Arrow I's, the seats are fixed backward, or facing the cab.
I can take some photos if you wish.
Arrow II interior. Somewhere there is at least 1 Comet II with the same seat colors!
By the way, before GOH the Comet Is used to have reversible seats. They were light blue with a dark blue center area (see BW picture of Comet I food service car someone posted). Also, all Comet Is had low doors, including the cab cars (which BTW had their numbers reversed, ie 1516 became 5116).
I posted the Comet I car which had the food service but it was kind of black and white. I'll go check again to see if I can.
When did the Comet I's have their #'s reversed as you have mentioned?
Did the Comet II's have any GOH's?
When did the Comet I's have their #'s reversed as you have mentioned?
When they were GOH'ed, and the end doors were raised to accomodate high platforms. It was after 1985 and before 1991, that's the best I can do, since I have a picture of a low-doored Comet I cab from '85 and a video of Kingsland from '91.
I like the numbering before they changed everything:
1500s - cab cars
1600s - food cars
1700s - regular cars (including the Comet Is now numbered 57xx).
I believe Arrow II was orange/black - orange/black/orange in all cars.
Replace the black with green, and that will match up with the photo Henry posted within the thread.
No, they were black. They look sort of green in a weird way in the pic, but I'm sure they were black because I rode the Arrow II's a couple times.
To compare - a P-42 is 137 tons, less than half the HP,
They have 4200 HP. 7100 / 2 = 3550 4200 > 3550
Also in non-electrified terrotory a P42 has infinitely more horsepower than an ALP-46.
LOL, why don't you compare the ALP-46 to the Baldwin BP-60 Cenntipeade. The semi-permiently coupled monster has 16 driving axles and 4 prime movers of 1500 hp each. The all up weight was 598 tonnes.
BTW I checked and US diesel rating is Power At The Main Generator. Auxilliary equipment like fans, engine generator and pumps are covered.
Amtrak shold have really bought the F59. They have a seperate HEP pack so all the prime mover power powers the train.
BTW, you never analyze tractive effort in your many rants and raves. TF is an important figure and they don't publish it for window dressing.
TE means nothing above 15mph, that's why. In any case, an AC traction system can get better adhesion than DC in any situation. Once you get a train rolling, TE is non important, as HP requirements to maintain starting TE rides very quickly. At 60mph, HP is the sole limiting factor - this is true with any locomotive. It's why an AEM-7 can blow the doors of an F-40 with an identical train in terms of acceleration. But getting started, they're actualy quite the same because they have very close starting TE. Once rolling, an F-40 can't keep up with an AEM-7 at all.
And, last I checked, power at the prime mover's generator isn't power at the input leads of the traction motors, which is where it's measured for electrics (naturally - there's no other limiting factor). Unless you or GE knows something that violates the laws of physics, if you put 4200hp into a generator, your resulting output at the leads will be about 80% of that. Or, for 746 watts per hp:
4200 * 746 = 3,133,200 watts, or 3.1 Mw.
But the problem is, electric generators are about 80% efficient. Thus, 20% of the energy is burnt up as heat - thus the need for cooling.
This figure has remained about the same +- a few percent, since the turn of the century.
So, 80% of 3.1 Mw works out to 2.48 Mw. With a .5 to 1 Mw HEP load, this leaves about 1.48 to almost 2Mw.
Or, less than 3000 HP being inputted to the traction mortors. This is the theoretical maximum achiveable. I bet you if you put a P-42's prime mover and generator on a load bank, and measured the power output at full power, you'd get numbers very close to what I'm predicting here (pasracitic loads are harder to predict without more data, generator efficiency varies a bit).
You have to figure transmission losses into any vehicle. it even exists with electrics, but the limiting factor to electric traction is still the motors, as the inverters and transformers are sized. on 1.5kv DC and 3kv DC systems, the pantograph can present a limiting factor. But on kilovolt AC, the theoretical limit at the pan is on the order of 10 to 30 Mw, though because of transmission losses in the locomotive (which can be substanial on some types), you would always see less at the motor leads (which is where it matters in any locomotive, anyway).
My diesel book said that most prime movers have about 10% extra power than what is rated. This is mostly for auxilliary equipment like fans, compressors, lights, radio, cab heat, pumps etc and also for quality control reasons. So a P42 engine can probably put at about 4600hp gross of all other inefficiencies.
Hey, can you make a SEPTA trip next Friday? It would be really great if you could come. We could even meet you half-way in West Trenton.
My diesel book said that most prime movers have about 10% extra power than what is rated.
That is correct! Actually, it's a bit more / less - the big thing in the auto industry is reducing these 'parasitic' loads. That's one reason why cars have electric radiator fans - they run only when needed, not all the time, thus you get a mileage bonus. Also, almost all cars today will turn the A/C system off if you punch the gas hard. Once again, reduced parasitic loads.
This is mostly for auxilliary equipment like fans, compressors, lights, radio, cab heat, pumps etc and also for quality control reasons.
Yes. I don't know if locomotive engines are regulated exactly, but cars are regulated in how they measure HP, because years ago car companies would quote the gross HP, which was HP before accessories (like a water pump!), not net, which is what you really see at the shaft.
Of course, what you see at the shaft is the important thing. It's ok to rate diesels this way, but you can't do diesel to electric comparisions very accurately anymore, because you don't know the exact transmission loss. the 20% I quoted is an approximation based on what I know about generators.
Electrics are rated at the traction motor leads. A rating here is what we really need to make a good comparision.
So a P42 engine can probably put at about 4600hp gross of all other inefficiencies.
That seems right. It's just your car engine's more powerful without acessories. I wish I could get my bike's shaft HP at the rear wheel, too :(
BTW - Talgo has shown an FRA compliant lightweight 125mph diesel. They are marketing it to the US now. Personally, I think the FRA regulations still need revision (a 'system' approach to safety really is better), but I think the excessive weight is also a factor of manufacturer laziness. The Budd M-1 is evidence you can build a lightweight MU and meet FRA.
It's really a shame Budd's not around, as they were unquestionably one of the leaders in rail carbody design, anywhere (they exported and licensed to Europe, and I believe were the first to apply monobody construction to railcars - the stainless sheathing on Budd cars is a structural member, and a very effective and light one). Their stainless, articulated, lightweight, Zephyr diesels of the 30's were basically the prototype for the modern multisection DMU (though it's not really a DMU).
At 100 tons for all 3 cars, it's weight is excellent, even by today's standards (60,000 lbs a car is light, even by Europe's standards 80,000 - 100,000 is more the norm) . IMHO, a modern version of this, could achive the same weight, and with significantly better performance and lower costs.
Imagine AC traction, 1500hp prime mover (a lightweight, high speed type would be ideal ), and more passenger seating (say, 2 1/2 cars, as opposed to 1 1/2 - the 1/2 section behind the loco could be a small cafe). IMHO, only minimal changes to the body design would be warrented - better crew protection and some implementation of energy management (noteably, allowing the engine compartment section to crumple, yet adding a debrid shield fore and aft, and an energy absorbing area in the nose, along with moving the cab back and up, slightly, to proived better protection - none of this would really affect the weight.
You'd have a nice looking and excellent performing railcar. 15hp per ton, better than most EMUs in the US (imagine Silverliner acceleration!)
Hey, can you make a SEPTA trip next Friday? It would be really great if you could come. We could even meet you half-way in West Trenton.
Hmm. I might be able to get the day off - or if I'm canned - this new job (telemarketing :) is going ok, but they say we all go if we don't sell. But nobody's selling, really. I suspect telemarketing gets a sub 1 percent sucess rate...
I get out of work at 2pm - I don't know how fast I could meet you guys - probbably like 4;30ish, so you'd be starting at the rush, unles you want me to miss 1/2 the trip :(
I'll see how it turns out next week and mail you...
Well of course the M1's are an exception. Budd built vehicles are magical and bulletproof. Budd still does exist as a subsidurary of some German firm so there is a non-0 chance that they might re-enter the market for railcars.
Light weight can go too far. I'm not pulling these opinions about "lightweight" rolling stock out of my ass, but am looking at the historical info re: "lightweight" American trains. The biggest examples were the PRR/NYC/RI AreoTrain, the Rock Island Taglo trainsets of the 60's and the NYC X-Plorer. Re the Areotrain and the Taglo, the riding public disliked the light and bouncy ride. They also found the Taglo cramped compared to other heavier rolling stock. The famous quote from one of my rail books is "The public felt why ride in a Beatle when you could ride in a Cadilac". Regarding the NYC Areotrain "Their light bouncy ride couldn't match conventional equipment for comfort and they were soon dropped".
I don't have any info on the X-plorer ride and I don't think it was even that much lighter weight. All I do know was that it kept breaking down.
Good luck on your making the trip.
Well of course the M1's are an exception. Budd built vehicles are magical and bulletproof. Budd still does exist as a subsidurary of some German firm so there is a non-0 chance that they might re-enter the market for railcars.
I don't think the M-1's an exception - it's actually proven to be a very good design.
Light weight can go too far.
Of course. Anything can.
. Re the Areotrain and the Taglo, the riding public disliked the light and bouncy ride.
True, but that was decades ago, when not much was known about RR truck suspension. Today, we know that it's possible to build a light car that rides well - but you have to use the right suspension. This is basically in the form of dropping unsprung weight. Those old conventional trucks have high unsprung weight, and steel springs (inherently non linear). Today, modern airbag suspension, and light trucks can improve the ride drastically. And it's not always a strength tradeoff - the M-1's light trucks are damm near bulletproof (though ironically, their unsprung weight is considerable - however they are supposed to have excellent weight transfer characteristics, and on well maintained track, they do in fact ride well).
I don't have any info on the X-plorer ride and I don't think it was even that much lighter weight. All I do know was that it kept breaking down.
Most of those cars were experimental, so breakdowns were to be expected. The Zephyr was even by today's standards a very light train, yet I've never heard complaints about it's ride. With today's truck technology, it would easily be much better.
Good luck on your making the trip.
Well, even in modern motor vehicle design, light weight generally means a bouncier, bumpier ride. The the old sports car syndrome where you feel every grain of gravel in the road. The only remedy is a hightly maintained and close tolerance track bed and that can send your "cheaper to operate" claim right out the window.
I was riding the train to Newark when on the right side of the two-track PATH storage, I spotted car #693 heavily coated with graffiti from the bottom up to most of the top of the doors. The entire right side was painted and I'm not sure about the other side.
PA-4 #803 was marked on also, but more of one set of curved streaks of thin black paint running the length of the car.
Who could have done this mischievous act? What will PATH do about it?
Another question, I've noticed that some PATH cars have an "R" after their number. I noticed it on the top of the cars and so far that I've seen, 153R and 714R are of the "R" series.
What is the significance of this "R" after the car #?
The "R" on the PA1, PA2, and PA3 cars indicate it was retrofitted to operate with the PA4 cars. Once all the cars were done the R's were removed. Maybe someone else knows what sort of modifications were required.
Maybe someone else knows what sort of modifications were required.
I don't know what else was done at that time (the PA cars sort of evolve over time, with the latest thing being the ACE key for door operation), but...
1) The door control panels were re-done to be able to handle the 3 sets of doors per side on the 4's. As rebuilt, it would have been possible to open all but the end-most doors. If you look at a door control panel, you'll see a hinged flap at the top, which is screwed shut. That contains the controls to inhibit the end doors. I'm pretty sure this was a half-baked idea to run 8-car trains on the lines now served only by 7 cars, by pulling further into the station. But there was still door overhang, so it didn't work. My first thought upon realizing this was "didn't anybody measure first?" but the answer is "obviously not" - the combination of offset doors and center poles on the 4's meant that a wheelchair couldn't move throgh the car, and would have to get of at a station where the doors opened on the same side as were the passenger boarded. The poles were removed when they found that out (after delivery; you can see the mismatched floor tiles where the floor was replace to cover the pole socket).
2) The wiring and associated parts for the external (car-side) PA speakers.
The poles were removed when they found that out (after delivery...
How long after delivery? I have a pic of me in a PA-4 with poles at a Hoboken Festival, so they must've run like that for a bit.
Let's go find the person who defaced these PATH cars and make an example out of him...
How will the person get caught? If the act is done, isn't usually the vandalizer that runs away and goes untouched?
The thing is, where could this have happened?
33st or Hoboken station. One track is often used for train storage. At night at 33st, sometimes two. The south end of 33st has no personnel
PATH yards are somewhat inaccessible to the common man, so it shouldn't have happened at one of them.
Does PATH still have to run that car through passenger service? It would be weird to see to passengers a whole side of graffiti marks that covers almost the entire side face up to the top of the doors.
You said it was on a side track, right? So I assume it was out of service.
No. I said it was on the track closest to the NEC on the 2-track PATH storage yard. Trains stored there are eventually used for service, and this train was not in the farthest position from the station. It was about the second train behind the closest train to Newark.
But considering that the vandalizers left their mark at Hoboken or 33rd, it must've been in service for awhile, but continually?
My dad and I went to railfan the Gladstone Branch line (from Metuchen) and came across some pretty interesting things:
1) The automated message turns on with a female voice. (normal but not on weekends) Female voice indicates track conditions. Male voice indicates train delays without the information. It states that "Attention all Passengers. Due to police investigation, all trains are subject to a delay of up to 30 minutes."
2) A 12-car NJT train pulls up on track 6 in Rahway and I notice that nobody is on the platform. This train creeps past Rahway at about 10-15 mph. It was not an express train.
3) Arrive at Newark. Turns out the Police Investigation is in Rahway (as noted on the departure screen) and they closed down the s/b platform for the afternoon. We returned around 12:00a and it was open to the public.
4) The departure board at Newark indicates that the 4:03p express train from NYP was cancelled for some reason.
5) On the Waterfront Connection train going past MMC, I saw a myriad of new trains, as noted in my other post.
6) At Hoboken, I notice a GP-40PH2 with its motor running (usual) without an engineer on both ends. It was around 5:30p and we returned at 11:00p and the train is still there chugging its smoke.
7) Return at Newark via PATH and notice the small lit-up American flag decoration in the tunnel. Prior to this, there were lots of Christmas lights in two locations inside the PATH tubes.
8) Eat at McDonald's in Newark Penn Sta. and notice that ALL of the workers are out of high school. The manager also LOOKED like he was out of high school. (This was around 11:30p)
9) Board the 11:44p train to Trenton. Notice that it is awfully crowded even at this time of hour. The T/C's have put off collecting tickets and just mind the doors, while the Conductor reads his newspaper in the 4th car (I think it was).
10) Notice that in Arrow III car #1520 makes the "EEEEE" "oooooo" tones when the doors close. This is weird because I only hear this on the ComArrows.
Questions:
1) Anybody know about the police investigation in Rahway on Saturday?
2) Anybody know why the 4:03p express train to Trenton was cancelled?
3) Approx. how long is it before any NJT diesel locomotive turns off? Are they kept on for months on end? (I know they are always on during the winter)
4) Who does the decorations inside the PATH tubes?
5) I mentioned the differences of the font of the numbers on different Arrow III type cars but why are these tones installed on the "bold-faced" number trains?
Answers and comments will be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I was told that someone asked sometime ago about what the room was that is above the tracks at the northern end of the IRT 168th St - Washington Heights station. You know, where those two little fenced off stairs are that lead up to the room. Anyhow, the room is a Relay and Signal Power Room.
According to MTA's website, bids are being taken July of this year for both the open-cut tunnel work in Queens and tunnel-boring in Manhattan for the LIRR East Side Access project. Apparently demolition and preparatory work near the existing tunnel is nearing completion and MTA is pushing ahead both in Manhattan and in Queens.
A caveat referring to FTA approval is written as well; hopefully that will be given shortly, or is already in place.
I've seen the EIS for this project. It is about 6 inches thick and weighs more than my cat. And it doesn't have too many pretty pictures or maps :(
What is "EIS"?
Environmental
Impact
Statement
David
Did the EIS mention what will happen when East Side Access is built and the Second Avenue Subway is not?
What passenger routing are you concerned about?
I don't see many LIRR passengers getting on a downtown 4/5 express in the morning rush. For City Hall/Wall St. it's easier to go to Penn and take a 2/3 that's less crowded, or (if not on the Port Wash branch) take the LIRR to Brooklyn. Not that many LIers work near Union Square, the only destination that's best reached by the downtown 4/5 (and besides, often the local is as fast as the express).
The downtown 6 is crowded below GCT, but far less so than above GCT. It can handle a few LIers that right now are crowding into the 34th St crosstown bus from Penn.
If you were bound for Wall Street and the LIRR train you were on happened to be going to Grand Central, would you change at Jamaica to a train for Penn or Flatbush? I wouldn't and I doubt many would.
Perhaps the LIRR should offer pricing incentives: tickets/passes to Grand Central are most expensive; to Penn, a bit less; to Flatbush and other points in the city zone, even less.
If I were bound for Wall St from LI, the first day I might try a train to GCT and change to the 4/5. When I discovered how crowded it was, I'd pick a different train that goes straight to Penn or Brooklyn. I don't think there's any electrified line where all trains go to Penn or all trains go to Brooklyn.
I'd only use the GCT trains if I worked on the east side of Manhattan anywhere from Spring St north. For Canal and points south I'd go via Brooklyn.
(The downtown 6 is crowded below GCT, but far less so than above GCT. It can handle a few LIers that right now are crowding into the 34th St crosstown bus from Penn.)
Someone agrees with you about the #6 being "under-utilized." One of the options proposed in the Lower Manhattan Access Study was to terminate the Lex Express at Grand Central. Those traveling on to Lower Manhattan would transfer to the "under-utilized" Lex local, taking an extra 20 mintues to reach their destination. If the local became too crowded, people might transfer at 59th Street and take the Broadway line Downtown.
Meanwhile, the Lex Express tracks would be used for a special shuttle train from Grand Central to Atlantic Avenue, for commuter rail ticket holders.
If the crowing conditions are such that suburbanites are uncomfortable, it may come to this.
One of the options proposed in the Lower Manhattan Access Study was to terminate the Lex Express at Grand Central. Those traveling on to Lower Manhattan would transfer to the "under-utilized" Lex local, taking an extra 20 mintues to reach their destination
That's insane! The 4/5 running on the Lex Express between Grand Central and Brooklyn Bridge carry a lot of people. They can't just ent the service at Grand Central! What about all the people that get on or off at Union Square? That proposal is nuts!
(That's insane! The 4/5 running on the Lex Express between Grand Central and Brooklyn Bridge carry a lot of people. They can't just ent the service at Grand Central! What about all the people that get on or off at Union Square? That proposal is nuts!)
The idea is that city residents would be forced to use the "under-utilized" local, which would then be fully utilized. People from the suburbs would use the express.
An interesting idea, but not likely to be adopted.
Al Sharpton will scream racisim against the minoritys.
(Al Sharpton will scream racisim against the minoritys. )
One can only hope.
The idea is that city residents would be forced to use the "under-utilized" local, which would then be fully utilized. People from the suburbs would use the express.
Anyone who lives on the east side of Manhattan below 42nd can tell you how insane this is. To get to Wall Street from Grand Central on the 6 is ELEVEN STATIONS! At 1.5 minutes per local station, that's 18 minutes -- whereas the 4/5 has 2 express stations (Union Sq, Bklyn Bridge) then 2 local stations, for a total time of 10 minutes. Major and significant difference.
This'll never happen, but if it did, I'd join the rioters.
I agree completely. That's the most insane proposal I've ever heard.
I agree completely. That's the most insane proposal I've ever heard.
You should read the If they had the funding and city approval would you accept them builidng a.... thread.
Not that I'm agreeing with this proposal, but where did you come up with the idea that a local stop costs 1.5 minutes? I did some timing during my travels today, and at each local station (on various lines of various crowd levels), the time elapsed from when the train stopped to when the train started moving again ranged from about 12 seconds to about 25 seconds. Sure, decelerating and accelerating also costs something, but not a full minute.
If you want to determine how much time an express saves over a local, there are (at least) two ways to do it. One is to look at the TA's posted timetables. Another is to repeatedly time the local and the express and compare your results.
According to the first method, the express from Brooklyn Bridge all the way to 125th saves about 9-10 minutes (assuming they leave BB in unison and neither is delayed more than usual). Without consulting the schedule, I'd guess that the average savings between Brooklyn Bridge and 42nd hovers around 3-4 minutes.
My rule of thumb is about 30 seconds extra per local stop.
MTA's estimate of average dwell time at a station platform is about 20 seconds.
Measured from exactly what point to exactly what point? (I measured from stop to start. I don't know if that's how 'dwell time' is defined.)
Whatever it is, it's at the high end. Which makes sense when computing line capacities but not when designing automated announcements. "This is a Brooklyn Brid -- Stand cl -- ding dong."
From full stop to the point the doors close and the train starts rolling again.
The MTA's estimate of average dwell time may be 20 seconds, but a comparison between local and expess service on the same route in the middle of the day shows an typical schedule difference of 30 to 45 seconds. You have to include speeding up and slowing down
If you read my post Larry, you would see that I provided you with a precise definition of "dwell time." I don't need to add anything to it.
If you are doing a comparison requiring acceleration/deceleration times, you must add those values to the dwell time.
Not that I'm agreeing with this proposal, but where did you come up with the idea that a local stop costs 1.5 minutes?
My rule of thumb is 1.5 minutes from station to station on IRT locals. This works consistently within Manhattan. I may not have phrased it to be understood that way, but 11 stations x 1.5 minutes from station stop to station stop = elapsed travel time (including dwell) of 18 minutes versus the much shorter express run.
At one time (late 1980's) MTA sent me figures indicating the average speed of an express train to be 28 mph and the local, 18 mph. I assume this average incorporates dwell time.
I didn't say the downtown local below 42nd was underutilized, just that it has enough spare capacity to handle a few LIERs who need to get to Park Ave and Lafayette St. from 33rd down to Spring St.
This is a far smaller crowd of folks than would be diverted onto the local if the 4/5 terminated at GCT.
Probably would make good cat litter too, but they would have to amke an Environmental Impact Studay before they could use it for such.
: ) Meow!
And you need a EIS to get a EIS. Viciuous cycle. You can go and desecrate Robert Mose's grave/urn/family for making all these building restrictons.
Let this great project begin!
tunnel-boring in Manhattan
They're actually gonna extend the stub tunnel westward? Amazing.
Unless you prefer to get off the train through the cab at 2nd and 63rd and hunt for worms.
:0)
If the East Side Access project is completed before the Second Avenue Subway, won't the Lexington Ave Line get more congested?
-Alex V.
Interesting point...
I inquired into this matter and was told that the 2nd Ave Subway was mitigation for the East Side Access, meaning that one of the conditions attached to building the East Side Access was the building of the 2nd Ave Subway to help relieve the crowding on the Lex (asd we all know). I'm not sure if they thought the 2nd Ave Subway would be ready before the ESA was completed, but with 2nd Ave Subway construction starting in 2004, I don't think it will be ready in time.
"I inquired into this matter and was told that the 2nd Ave Subway was mitigation for the East Side Access, meaning that one of the conditions attached to building the East Side Access was the building of the 2nd Ave Subway to help relieve the crowding on the Lex (asd we all know)."
False. While we may feel that way about it, the EIS for the East Side Access Project clearly states that the two projects are separate and one is not legally dependent on the other. MTA is under no obligation to build a Second Avenue Subway based on the go-ahead to build the LIRR ESA project. Second Av project is undergoing engineering and will begin construction in '04 based on its own EIS and approvals.
By the way, MTA's $17.1 billion 2000-2004 Capital Plan was approved by the State Legislature and signed off on by Governor Pataki. It is now official.
(By the way, MTA's $17.1 billion 2000-2004 Capital Plan was approved by the State Legislature and signed off on by Governor Pataki. It is now official.)
It was cut by $400 million thus far, as a result of funding deficiencies. Needless to say, there was no press release, to the fact that you don't know what's going on isn't just because you don't live here anymore.
We'll get the real budgets, for NYCT and in general, after the November election. Everyone pretty much says so, even the newspapers and many of the elected officials.
The process isn't any different than previous Capital Plans, Larry. I'm not sure where you got the $400 million drop from; the Capital Plan as approved is pretty much where it's supposed to be.
Ok, so maybe I was wrong. So what does the ESA EIS say about the impact it will have on the LEX line?
It doesn't address it directly. It does estimate an increase in riders being delivered to midtown. My copy is in a box somewhere (I recently moved) so I don't have access to it, or I'd look it up again.
I agree with the point you made, by the way. But a legal connection is not there.
Ok, I read some selected sections of the EIS on Thursday. It is like you say. Basically they say "improvements in station dwell times" will help move more people on the LEX, and "removing the decorative covers of the columns in the GCT Mezz" will help with pedestrian flow. I don't think those two items will help too much and the LEX will be more crowded than ever once ESA is done.
Amazing! Somebody out there really thinks that all our subway problems are due to decorative covers?
Removing the covers in GCT is a good idea. Also remove that false brick from 51st.
Also remove that false brick from 51st.
I kind of like the way they did the brick at 51 St. It may be one of the first attemps they did to renovate a station, while keeping and restoring the mosaics.
Wait a minute! The SAS got the green light?! When'd this happen? I know I've been out of the loop for a little while, but, hell, this is major news for me! :)
Stuart
Preliminary Engineering is underway on the Second Av Subway. The Capital Plan included money to begin construction in 2004 on the initial segment north of 63rd Street.
Ahhhh.....the infamous "stubway".....wonder if after everything that's happened since Nine-Eleven that the Southern section of the SAS will ever be considered for the Capital Plan green backs budget in the next......oh, say, 10 years.
Yes, the Stubway. But engineering is underway for the lower segment too.
Hey, I'm grateful that the shovels can start digging at all.
Hell, so am I, mon...we can finally bury the myth of the SAS and call it what it will be......an existing line rather than a rotting proposal, even though it won't be in the entireity that was proposed in 1929 (which had it going into Brooklyn)
Stuart
"Hell, so am I, mon...we can finally bury the myth of the SAS and call it what it will be......an existing line rather than a rotting proposal, even though it won't be in the entireity that was proposed in 1929 (which had it going into Brooklyn)'
Never say never. That's a great idea you have.
SAS, full-length, is designed to run trains from 2nd Av onto the 63rd Street line (west and east) as well as up and down 2nd Av.
If the TA, as the lower line segment gets built, were to get funds to continue it to Brooklyn, esp. to places where there is inadequate subway service now, the 63rd St-2nd Av service could be a little like the 8th Av service is now: Central trunk services in Manhattan, with branches going to the boroughs.
Write to MTA and tell them that's what you want.
As the proposed line is designed, it can never realistically be turned into the four-track local-express line it should be.
You're probably right.
Who told you that?
- Lyle Goldman
I don't see how East Side Access will affect the most crowded parts of the Lex. Those are the 4/5 from 86th to BB and the 6 from 86th to 42nd.
The local southbound from 42nd would get LIRR riders, but it's just full, not insanely overcrowded.
Yes. It's inevitable that this will happen. Hopefully, though, construction on Second Av will begin in '04, and this will give it impetus.
Yes. It's inevitable that this will happen. Hopefully, though, construction on Second Av will begin in '04, and this will give it impetus.
Hopefully they will take some lessons from how the work went on the Greenwich Line, even if that was an emergency. I think it's amazing how fast they are progressing on that, and that's after removing two 110 story buildings from on top of it! Sure, the Greenwich Line is small comparable to the 2nd Ave subway project, but we now know it's possible to progress at a fairly fast pace. Unfortunately, I'm sure they won't progrss that fast.
What's the Greenwich line? Do you mean the local Seventh Avenue Line (1/9) south of Chambers Street to South Ferry? I don't think I've ever heard that referred to as the "Greenwich" Line.
- Lyle Goldman
I heard it called the Greenwich street line here and TOSOTT boards many times.
See here for just a few examples:
The New Opening Date for The Greenwich Street Tunnel
Photo: Greenwich Street 1/9 tracks are now way above ground
It's been called that many times on the other message board also, but it's harder to search that board, but that's also where I got it from to call the segment the "Greenwich Street" Line.
The 1/9 south of Chambers runs underneath Greenwich Street (or what was Greenwich St. before the building of the WTC) from Vesey St. almost all the way to South Ferry.
In addition, the part of Greenwich St. on WTC property was never excavated when the WTC was built and there has been very strong talk of restoring that portion of the street.
A lot less inaccurate than calling something a "Seventh Ave. line" when in fact the latter is only under a street whose official name is "Seventh Avenue" from 12th St. to 42nd St., a small fraction of the length of the line.
Indeed. And how much of the "Nassau Street Express" (the J subway's official name)is Nassau Street?
Or express? (No it doesn't skip Bowery!).
Good point. (LOL!)
It may be a small fraction of the line, but it's the heart of the city. That's why the line is officially called the Seventh Avenue Line.
- Lyle Goldman
Passenger counts certainly don't support that claim. The busiest part of the line (by far) is between 42nd and 96th, not between 12th and 42nd.
And if the 12th-to-42nd range is what defines the heart of the city, then why isn't the 4/5/6 called the Park Avenue South line? It's named after the street it runs under between 42nd and 125th.
I have a more convincing explanation. The original line was S-shaped. The East Side portion was extended up Lexington Avenue, hence the Lexington Avenue name. The West Side portion was extended down 7th Avenue, hence the 7th Avenue name. (One more example: the BMT line between the Williamsburg Bridge and Chambers was extended south along Nassau, hence the Nassau name.) The names were given when the lines were extended.
Despite that, only the 2 and 3 are referred to as 7th Avenue trains -- the 1 is the Broadway-7th Avenue local in official parlance.
Me, I call it the West Side IRT or the Broadway IRT. That's not ambiguous and it better reflects reality.
Hopefully they will take some lessons from how the work went on the Greenwich Line ... it's amazing how fast they are progressing on that, and that's after removing two 110 story buildings from on top of it! ... we now know it's possible to progress at a fairly fast pace. Unfortunately, I'm sure they won't progrss that fast.
Totally different kinds of projects. One reason the 1/9 restoration is going so fast is that they have a total open construction area and they're just restoring superstructure to a concrete footing. Tunneling the SAS is completely different construction technology. Very little if any applicability of one to the other.
Since when does the MTA give a beep about SAS?
"If the East Side Access project is completed before the Second Avenue Subway, won't the Lexington Ave Line get more congested? "
Sure, but whats a few inches between friends?
: ) Meow
Hello There!
OK, one more time:
The old Hudson Terminal & tubes east of the 1971 WTC station were converted to a combination access road (Motor vehicles) and loading dock. All station facilities were removed during this process and the tube trackways paved over. All that remained was (is) a large shell, but not large enough for what PATH would require today. The original H & M substation shell beneath Hudson Terminal did survive relatively intact until recent times, if not to 9/11. It may still be beneath the abandoned loading dock, stratified, glazed ceramic tile and all.
The PATHWAYS newsletter of 10/85 had a photo of a pup truck inside the old H & M tube, and the PBS Special showing a day in the life of the WTC last fall showed the loading dock that WAS ONCE Hudson Terminal. The tube's existence proved useful for the removal of gold which had been stored six stories below the WTC complex in November or December.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I wish I could see some photos of what the terminal/loading dock looks like today...I mean more than is available on this site.
...Flawed principles are sure to fail.
Here is an artice on www.trains.com by Bill Stephens about the AMTRAK situation. All points are clearly marked, and the article is written in POV of the author.
There are some more AMTRAK and other railroading news in the News Topics for each date.
Click the link below to see the article. Be sure to sign up for trains.com NewsWire before clicking!
Bush Passenger Plan is a Recipe for Disaster
Well it was a nice day weatherwise, not too hot for today's trip. I couldn't meet Thurston in Flushing, because there was no Wendy's there. So I ate at Wendy's near Grand Central, then figured I'd catch the gang in the front car of an arriving redbird at Grand Central (around 4:30pm, since they left around 4pm).
Sure enough right on cue, the Redbird came in at 4:30pm, with railfans in the front. I rode the 7 line earlier going in, a Redbird. Was a pleasant ride, the bus ride going was the usual 25a creep.
Anyway, we all took the 7 train to Times Square, then went up the escalator out of that hot station.
Then getting a 1 train to a busy Penn station, where we met with a Metrocard collector in a nearby building. After that we walked over to the 8th avenue line, planning on taking the A. We waited (A)while and the train was packed. We decided to take the local instead, and changing to the local platform wasn't easy!
A nice cool E train came in and we took it to 14th street, where we went downstairs for the L. An R143 was pulling out just as we got in. We waited for a few more people to arrive, and then caught the next R143 to Canarsie.
It was a nice smooth ride, a bit slow, and boring in the tunnel, but once we got out of the tunnel things got interesting. Actually in the station before the portal, I don't remember, there was a smoke condition, where police told us to shut HVAC. Unfortunately the smell already got into the train.
AN interesting ride through Broadway junction, lots of els and stuff there. At the end in Canarsie you could clearly see the Redbirds in the yard. Also the B42 bus stops in fare control. I wonder why the TA does it that way. After a photo-op, we left fare control and went into a kind of dinky Blimpie, across the street. I wasn't impressed too much with Canarsie though, kinda run down and dirty, alot of homeless sleeping on the streets (there was one outside Blimpie).
I got a drink and then had to leave early, at 7pm, because I wanted to make the 8:53pm N21 from Flushing.
All in all a good trip, and my first trip on an R143.
Going back, I got on another R143 and boarded the first car, looking out the blurry window (it aint that bad, it's still something!). We left promptly at 7pm. There were some rowdies in the car, who were smoking (never saw pax smoking in a train!). Fortunately they got off at Bway jct. Generally anything south of there aint too nice, wouldn't want to wait for a train there late at night!
This T/O was a bit less of a scardey cat, and the ride was faster. Pretty fast ride through 14th street tubes, where the signals were played very close, with GT's red till the last second. Definately fun!
Also noted quite a trendy crowd at Lorimar and Bedford, unliek the rest of the line.
At Union Square I got off (it was 7:33pm)and got on an R142 5 train for a brisk, but packed ride to GCT.
At GCT I moved along briskly through the passageway to the 7, and just made an R62A 7 express. Pretty run ride to Flushing, just as fast as the birds IMO.
At Flushing I got there at 8:26pm, so I had some extra time. That new Flushing mall is great, there's alot of scenery if u know what I mean. :-)
I got the 8:53pm N21, which left on time, but this bus 165, had no A/C. Once we got past Great Neck the driver really put the pedal to the metal for a fun, quick ride. It's nice riding on the N21 when there's no traffic.
Well that's just about it. Had a great time. I can't wait till the Rockaway line trip!
Of course I think we should plan a trip on the 7 express to Flushing sometime, for one last ride on the Redbirds.
You must be lucky to be riding on all of those new trains at one time (including the #7).
Was it a fan trip?
Yes, it was a fan trip. See my photos in the post called "The Report..."
It's after 10 pm, it must of been dangerous coming back, huh?
No, not really. Flushing is busy, even at night.
Dangerous in Glen Cove at 10pm, yeah probably. That's why I'm not crazy about walking back from the desolate Sea Cliff RR station at night and prefer the N21 bus that goes right into Sea Cliff. Main thing that is creepy is DARK areas, and that street by the RR station is DARK.
If Glen Cove improved the streetlighting in that area, it would help.
(the Sea Cliff RR station is actually in Glen Cove, and is a 15 minute walk from the border with Sea Cliff, 30 minutes from my place)
Rob, I hate to tell ya, but Atlanta is as dangerous as Brooklyn, easily. :)
No arguement from me :-) Anyway, I was just making a joke. Qtraindash7 has made numerous statements in the past about how no one should be out past 10 pm.
I have an exception to that observation...I invite anyone, anyday,
they desire to join me for a walk thru most of "Greenpoint,Brooklyn"
residential abodes during the wee hours. There are industrial areas,
I wouldn't venture into though, "DAY or NIGHT"!
:-) Sparky
Whoa there, I've gone through Greenpoint industrial area (by the oil? refinery or something like that) with my camera taking black and whites and they've come out excellent. No one is going to hurt you there...
Clayton,
Thank you. It's good to hear, some acclamation of the hood, instead of degradation.
:-) Sparky
John,
You missed seeing the speedometer sitting on 50 mph in our R40M going through the tube when we took the L train back to Manhattan.
Bob
At night is when the "cowboy" motormen come out! It's just too bad I missed it. Gotta love livin in the boonies. Now if the Glen Cove-Sea Cliff trolley was around (there was a trolley a long, long time ago)I'd take it back from the train station.
I'd rather do that, than a dark 30 minute walk.
Was the cab door open? The speedometer isn't usually visible, even through the hinge, on any of the L's equipment.
Cab door open all the way to Union Sq or even later
Peter
Sure....Rat out the Train Operator.
The door was not open, it was secured with an approved device as requried by the rule book.
(The device was his foot, and the rule just got stretched the length of the 60th st tube)
You summed the trip up well. The neighborhood served by the Bedford stop has been gentrified for the past 15 years or so, and now the areas along the line as far east as Morgan are slowly starting to be 'discovered' as well. Contrary to popular belief, the East Williamsburg and Bushwick areas are definitely not wastelands- at least judging from the outbound rush-hour crowds.
Quite noticeable was the fact that there seem to be no more Slants on the L. None were in the ENY yard either. They must've all been moved over to Coney to provide additional N, Q or- dare I say it- W service.
It was my second time on a 143, first time going from Manhattan to Brooklyn. Very strange hearing the now-familiar 142A whine on a different division. The car is a bit more comfortable than its Division A counterparts due to opposite seating combined with the normal Division B width.
The brand new cars make a good fit with the (mostly) renovated underground stations. Speed was moderate under the river and on the straightaways under Wyckoff, but that may have been due to rush-hour congestion. I normally ride the line on weekends when the headways are much larger, allowing for greater speed where possible.
There was that brief scary smoke condition in the Bushwick tunnel that fortunately did not delay us. The way the recorded female announcer, who was somewhat less stilted than on the 142s, pronounced "R-r-rockaway Parkway" was amusing.
The Canarsie terminal area has many artifacts that have gradually disappeared over the years. That's the only place in the system you can grab a bus right on platform level within fare control. There may be similar setups at some ground-level Toronto stations. We ate at a Blimpy's smack dab in the old trolley ROW. Numerous buses coming out of the terminal appeared to bear down right on us.
On the way back, Sparky and I bailed out at Lorimer for the serpentine transfer to the Queens-bound G, which we just missed. I had hoped the through service to Forest Hills would have started by that time, as I had parked midway between the Steinway and Broadway/31st stations. But Court Square was still the last stop. I ran upstairs, grabbed a Redbird 7 one stop to Queensboro where a W was just pulling out. A few minutes later I got a Slant N to Broadway.
As always, it was fun to get together with everyone.
Gents,
It was an exhilarating evening of a trip to Canarsie, with a stimulating group of Rail aficionados. Superlative trip.
Also thanks for the plaudits from Qtraindash7 & Howard, in
reference to the rebirth of East Williamsburgh & Bushwick.
I'm a "Greenpunuter" for life except 2 years. I've seen it
come and go.
Quickie note about the B42 in fare control. Without a history
lesson, this goes back to BRT days, when the Brodway Brooklyn
El ran from Broadway & East River to the Canarsie Shore, with
BU & Trolley Poles. When the 14th Street Subway was completed
and the standards took over, the service was cut back to the
present location at Rockaway Parkway. For the balance of the
trip to the shore, BRT street cars were substituted for the
"EL" trains and eventually the ROW closed and the lined started
operating on Rockaway Parkway on the street. The line was busified
in 1951. The B42 is a de facto extension of an RT line on rubber
tires.
Gotta get out here for now & see the "Bone Cracker",
Leter ;-) Sparky
Visit this link to see various posts by webmasters of what changes have been going on at the site.
Here is one of the many helpful messages from its webmaster:
"We are working diligently to migrate our database system to SQL and are about 25% done."
What is SQL?
It's totally off topic, since you could probably look this up in Google or somewhere, but SQL stands for "Structured Query Language", a standardized, more or less, way to query a database. It's pretty readable as compared to English, for instance, a query might look like:
select emailaddress,phonenumber from addressbook where firstname='Dave' and lastname='Pirmann'
What they really mean by "migrating our databases to SQL" is "migrating to a database product that supports SQL as a method of getting data in and out". Such products are Sybase, Oracle, MySQL, etc. My guess is their product of choice is MySQL since it's fast, powerful, and free.
We just got copies of photos from the E.R.A. trip to Lake Compounce and Danbury. They were taken by a member of my family who literally grew up at BERA. 1414 was a primary source of income for the musuem years ago, and over many hundreds of happy, fee earning miles yours truly piloted that gentle beast. It is thus with very mixed feelings that one finds it earning money for BERA elsewhere. It is too bad that the museum does not have the capacity to utilize it as the unique American treasure it is on its own property. At any rate, the family member who knew it very, very well noted that it runs nicely (although at an unnattural restricted speed) and looks fine. Just how a person who knew it during its productive years should react is confusing. Any helpful thoughts out there?
Read This While The Pics Load:
I took a little trip up the NJ 31 Railfan Corridor on Sunday. I made stops at High Bridge, the north and south portals of the Pattenburg tunnels and the abandonned Manunka Chunk tunnel. Stops at Paulens Kill, Johnsonburg, Greendell and Roseville had to be postoned due to time.
At High Bridge I visited the wonderfully preserved CNJ station at the terminus of the NJT Raritan Valley Line. The line past Raritan has recieved new welded rail and it has cab signaing as well. ARCH interlocking had round target signals made by both SafeTran and GRS as well as switch machines made by US&S, so the big 3 were preprsented in a single interlocking. The hi-lite was a brand new silver/grey US&S M-23 machine. High Bridge station is at the end of a very tall earth fill which used to be the ... "High Bridge". Down at the bottom of the fill a creek and road pass under the massive fill via a short tunnel. Its wonderful 1900's engineering.
My next stop was the Eastern Portal of the Pattenburg tunnel. I parked at the LVRR single lane underpass and walked up the road to the abandonned quarry. I was surprised to see that the former 2 track tunnel had been single tracked. The entire tunnel was now under interlocking rules with a home signal and turnout at each end where the single track becomes two. The new interlocking is CP-64. Each of the home signals were a tubular stainless cantilever style gantry and had two two head US&S CR-2 round target style signals. Two interesting things. The interlocking was re-done when Conrail was still in charge or its ghost was still in charge so the stainless steel gantry is painted black in a square around each of the signals for better visability. Also, the gantry is not a SafeTran product and looks home assembled in that the ladder to the top is a stock store bought extension latter that was bolted to the gantry frame, which was made by a non-aligned corporation.
Another fasicating thing about CP-64 was that the switch machines were GRS model 5's, not US&S M3's. The points were protected from winter weather by electric resistance point heaters. The relay boxes were all in the Conrail style "Cor-Ten" natural rusting steel. As I said in my other post the tunnel was acting like a giant HVAC machine and in the 90 degree weather it was welcome relief. There were many ATV riders out today in both the quarry and along the RR tracks. The RoW sides were heavily erroded due to ATV use.
My next stop was the west end of the portal which was just like the east portal. I came down a hill on top of the contrete portal and I found that the tunnel lining stuck out about 30 feet from the hill slope and was like a massive sewer pipe. i got lucky cause about a minute after I stopped exploring the track area and went back on top of the portal an NS hi-railer came putting around the curve and stopped just inside the portal mouth. Needless to say I jetted out of there and got back into the car.
Continuing on I verfied the integrity of the CNJ RoW to at least Asbury. The RoW is overgrown, but contains one intact track. Crossing equipment is also still present along the RoW. Hopefully we will see service restored to Easton one of these days.
My last stop was the abandonned Manunka Cunk tunnel, just off US 46 in Delaware NJ. This tunnel was part of the old DL&W main line and was made redundant in 1912 by the new Slateford Cuttoff. It was abandonned in the 1960's and is currently owned by the state as part of an "open spece". The tunnel is VERY hard to find from Rt 46. It is located about 50 feet above and 300 feet away from Rt 46. One's best bet is to come around the big curve on Rt 46. 46 runs on the bank of the Delaware River for about 1/2 mile and then moves away to the right of a floodplain. Right where this floodplain starts is where the tunnel portal is. Just park and hike up the hill until you find the old RR grade/ATV trail. Then walk south until you hit the tunnel. The north end of the twin tunnel is lined w/ stone masonry, the south end has no lining. Part of the westbound tube has brick lining, which has stood up the best over the years. Inside the tunnels were very cool (tempature wise) and mad suffered many small cave-ins and lining failures. Both tubes were passable except for water and mud that stopped us. If you ever want to walk these tunnels I recomend a torch and boots. The footing inside can be very tricky at times. In the easbound tunnel there had been some cave-ins that had trapped a long section of track inside. It is heavily corroded, but still recognizable. There is also a mid-tunnel, cross tube passage that was about 4-3 feet tall and easily passible by a human, as long as that human dosen't mind mud.
Here are some pics:
The High Bridge At High Bridge
The Eastward Portal at Pattenburg
Inside the west portal:
The west portal at Manunka Chunk:
A cave in inside the westbound tube:
Here are some linked Images:
The West Portal at Pattenburg.
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CP-64_Westward-portal.jpg
The home signals at CP-64
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/CP-64_Westward-home-close-up2.jpg
The new Silver Switch machine
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/High_Bridge-USS-M3-Silver.jpg
The Manunka Chunk mid river passage:
http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/images/Manunka_Chunk-Mid-tunnel-cross-passage.jpg
Disclaimer-
The following is a parody of a certain maddening poster on this board.
_____________________________________________________________________
Are there any plans to tear down the Astoria el and when they do is it true that they might replace it with a bus line.
Also, I heard a rumor that they are going to bring back the K 8th avenue local and the KK that went down 6th ave then to the Broadway Brooklyn el, when are they going to do this, and is it true.
I heard they were going to tear down the East River. How are they going to do this and if so, what kind of development will rise there?
Nah, see, you put a question mark at the end, that guy NEVER uses 'em.
Good question though....
I heard a rumor that they are going to drain the East River and make it into a big skateboard park for X games, is this true and when are they thinking of doing it.
When I was little, I had a bunch of fake cities I made up.
One city had a river called the Drake River (because it starts with the same two letters as dry). A dam was built across the Drake for hydropower and water supply, lowering the pressure of the Drake and causing saltwater to back up. The solution was a lock at the opening, this lowered the level of the river. Finally, the river was narrowed so it became deeper and stronger. At some point, the river was shut off briefly to pave a section of it and every year it would be shut off and there would be a festival down on the riverbed.
Obviously, I had a lot of free time back then. :-)
I just stuck to Sim City :-)
This was before I had a computer.
Once I had a computer and SC2K, all of those fake cities went away. :-(
Now any fake cities that I have are Sim Cities.
When I was around 7, my dad used to bring home extra computer paper from work (anyone remember the kind with alternating white and green lines?) and I used to draw pictures of MARTA. I drew mainly the station Lenox, just because I thought it was a cool word, and I never even used that station.
My parents bought me the original Sim City for DOS, and you could get away with using only rail lines and no roads whatsoever, so all the cities I made were all transit cities!
Viva Brasil! O mais melhor futebol no mundo! 1-0 baby!
You can do that in Sim City 3000 again. I've never built a whole city like that, but I've built islands in regular cities accessible only using the subway.
You gotta pick up Sim City 3000, Its the best computer game I ever got.
I was in Best Buy today, the price finally came down (why does EA do that, their games get old, yet stay 50 bucks?). It was 29.99, and they also had these wierd little boxes. I was introduced to Sim City through a friend's SNES, when Sim City was out on that. Been trying to find it for my SNES, but no luck yet, when I find it, it will finally come down from the Attic. To keep this near topic, does anyone remember the Union Station that you could build? It was a reward that was only on the SNES version, which IMHO, was slightly more fun.
You should download the SNES emulator and try to find the ROM.
Emulation is perfectly legal, especially since you own the system. Getting a ROM if you have the cartridge also isn't, but putting it on a website is.
Nevertheless, since this game is out of production, I don't see anything immoral about it. The producer isn't making money off of it anymore.
Also, let's not let this discussion degenerate.
Redbirds, naturally.
That would solve the Manhattan Bridge problem :)
--Mark
HEH...reminds me of an old joke from the 60s/70s...THIS JUST IN...The east river caught fire today and burned to the ground.
Peace,
ANDEE
Â
Oh NO - Not the Astoria El again ;-) How about a compromise - lets replace it with a 1964 NY Worlds'Fair style MONORAIL...
SIMPSONS DID IT!
You live dangerously. i.e. Let sleeping edogs lie.
E_DOG
Woof. :)
Everybody nose that da Astoria line is going to be replaced with hovercraft. Sheesh.
Too slow - Astoria is moving to the future - we want Star Trek Transporters on every corner!!
Nah, the joke doesn't have anything to do with your Astoria thing....
I was doing a "Busfan" imitation.....
On the property and being delivered tonight! I didn't think I'd see them.
But wait, isn't that the last number on the primary car order? It is, and it has been delivered before other R-142s.
An inquiry for Train Operators who operate diesel locomotives: I've observed a yellow cable which protrudes out of the diesel and through the R-142. Is this an MU cable by some chance?
-Stef
No it is used to get air and maybe to controll the power to the back diesel. Since there is on brakes on the cars they need as many brakes to be aplayed in the back of the train.
Robert
Confirmed. That set was on the Lex tracks at Nevins at around 10:30pm last night.
Sea Beach Fred always mentions how he loves to ride the Cyclone when he comes to NY. Well, on today's Newsday website at www.newsday.com you can actually take a virtual ride from the front seat of the Cyclone right at your computer. The address of the virtual ride is:http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-cyclonevideo.realvideo.
P.S. I don't think this is off-topic as the Cyclone runs on 2 rails and is certainly RAPID transit!!!
Thanks Sarge for the mention. You bet I love to ride the Cyclone. It is the greatest ride in the world bar none. That is now the first thing I want to do when I get to New York. Of course, I take the Sea Beach to get me there. OK, I go to 86th Street and walk.
The Cyclone is probably the one single thing that Sea Beach Fred and I agree on. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks for posting that!
Not off topic! Roller Coasters used to be known as "Scenic Railways" :)
--Mark
Hey listen Mark. Tell the other Subtalkers that if I can;t talk about the Cyclone as well as the Sea Beach, well, then I;m out of here. Did you ride it recently?
I hope to ride it sometime in July.
--Mark
For all of the roller coaster fans that visit this website, the "Cyclone" in Astroland at Coney Island turns 75 years old today. I may go there later this morning if things work out. I'll be wearing my "W" shirt so if any of you happen to be down there you'll recognize me.
#3 West End Jeff
Check out my post not too long ago where you can take a Cyclone ride right at your 'puter.
June 26, 1927. I will have to remember that. The Cyclone---What a ride.
I did go to Coney Island today to ride the "Cyclone" for its 75th birthday. I even bought a T-shirt as a souvenir.
#3 West End Jeff
Good for you Jeff. I hope you had a blast. Did you ride in the first car? That's the only way to go. Did any other of my fellow Subtalkers also celebrate the Cyclone's 75th Anniversary by riding that magnificent roller coaster? Let me know.
My motorman and I were going to walk over there during our 'WAA' time, but due to the weather being very touchy around 6:30 this afternoon, we decided to stay put at Stillwell terminal.
Billy: A pox on that rotten weather. Next time, perhaps, the weather will be better and you will go to the Cyclone and have the time of your life.
Jeff: That was one hell of a thrill. I felt I was riding it myself. Of course, there is nothing like the real thing but since I live in California I will just have to enjoy it vicariously via your little gift. Thanks.
(another parody)
______________________________________________________________________
I heard a rumor that the next car after the R-160 will be the R-170 is this true and what lines are the planning to send it to. Also when the R-170's get here is it true that they will start retiring the R-143's and when will they do this.
The R-170 will be put first on the K line and the option order will be put on the T line. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
You all forgot about the L to New Jersey. They will need more cars on that line once it opens in the year 2050 this will be perfect
ROFLAMO
I heard a rumor that they are thinking of bringing back the NX maybe the cars will go there does anyone know is this true.
Yes, a cleaner at the Rockaway Parkway stop on the canarsie line told me so, it must be true. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
(parody)
Since everyone is bring back older designs (i.e. PT Cruser, Cooper Mini, Chevy pickup truck, etc), I'm glad to see the R170 is going back to the Lowry designed slant nose. But is it a full width cab?
conductors between the cars!!!(imagine that on the slant end!!)
Whoah!!!! Where did you here that piece of information??????? They haven't even ordered the R-160 and the R-143 order hasen't even finished up yet.
Hey, guy......look right above the message, it says (another parody)....
That means it's a joke.
Oh My fault.
Did you see the notches on the roof, the clasps on the bottom and the adjustable third-rail gear on the design?
Kawasaki and Siemens had an all-out contest which Kawasaki won. The R-170 will not only be able to run on the subway; it will also be able to pinch hit for LIRR MUs whenever an M-1 breaks down or when a MNRR MU breaks down.
The cars can be double-stacked in the yard for more efficient use of space.
Price tag: $2.1 million, but some is refundable if MTA exercises all options.
For use on the Staten Island North Shore line of the SIR and 2nd Ave Subway, both are to be connected to each other but will bypass St. George.
The R170 will be a "convertible" car, able to run as IRT and BMT/IND by way of movable sides. The switch will only be available to railfans.
There will be a transverse cab, but there will be a railfan periscope.
It will run on a new line called the "o", a designation purposely chosen because it can either be a letter or a number. It runs down the Flushing IRT until Court House Square, where it shifts to Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown until Broadway, where it swtiches to the Broadway el. It goes over the Williamsburg Bridge, then switches to the northbound Lexington IRT until the Bronx, where it leaves the Pelham line onto the Hells Gate Bridge and transfers to the Astoria line southbound, terminating at Queensboro Plaza. No stops in Manhattan.
Oh! Did I mention that it has teleportation capacity?
:-D Andrew
"teleportation capacity?"
I TOTALLY BELIEVED YOU till I read that, bucko.
Oh! Did I mention that it has teleportation capacity?
You mean like my 2004 plan for the E line?
Customers are advised to be afraid, be very afraid.
(parody)
The proposed R-170 cars will resemble the R-11/R-34 cars (i.e. four small porthole windows on the doors, porthole window on the stormdoors (same as R-15, R-16 and R-17 cars), stainless steel carbodies. Instead of the hand-crank windows, the windows will be tilt-back like the R-32 through R-143 cars.
Please note: This is only a joke.
Regards,
Danny
R-170 is maglev and will be assigned to the Astoria/LaGuardia El and also the 4-track Queens Blvd bypass line to Forest Hills and then 76th Street.
Actually, being Maglev, it will allow the Port Authority to ban all short-hop flights to LI airfields once LIRR switches over to the R-170. In fact, if budget requests are fulfilled, they could even close one of La Guardia's runways (won't need it) and all of LGA's NIMBYs will toast the PA.
R-170 is maglev and will be assigned to the Astoria/LaGuardia El and also the 4-track Queens Blvd bypass line to Forest Hills and then 76th Street.
lol...There's that freakin' El again! Somehow I think the 76th St Station should have been added to the Astoria El when they were building it. They seem to be the two most talked about threads lately, and we can't escape either of them anyway. At least that way they could be combined into one thread, "The 76th Street Station along with the Astoria El must Go!"
Go...all the way to Connecticut.
these are going to be cars in articulated pairs, 42 foot sections, so they will be the same length at the M1s(the articulation will take up 1 foot) With the current theme of incorperating old design features, these will have axiflow fans, instead of airconditioning. these will be aluminum, and will run on all MTA train lines. 5 inch across bucket seats will be used, so that the cars will be AAA(americans with anorexia act) as wellthe cars will be built to the width of the irt, so they can be run anywhere. there are to be platforms that fold down to de-train at non A division stations. metal detectors will do a thuroughsearch of all getting on the train. cab doors will be strengthened, even though the travel time between stationswill be 4.239 hours, you dont want to let a train be hijacked do you?????
Well, since tomorrow might be the last day of Amtrak, I'd like to get in some Acela watching. It's a shame I never got to ride one, but I've seen them and they're good eye candy.
I was originally thinking Penn Station, but I don't know if they let non-passengers on the Amtrak platforms, after that Sept. 11 crap.
I'm also thinking of the Astoria N train platform, with that rail bridge that passes overhead (Hell's Gate I think?).
Any other ideas, let me know. Preferably a subway station.
Thanks in advance...
that should read "preferably near a subway station." i.e. I don't want to be jumping over fences and trespassing into rail yards, or walking 2 miles to some tracks.
McDonald's near Northern Blvd. on the R & V. Sit at a table and watch 'em go by in Air Conditioned comfort.
Hunterspoint Ave station on the LIRR is also a good spot. Plenty of train activity from Amtrak, LIRR, NJT and the 7 trian as well.
Sorry, no A/C or McDonalds there. But there is a small store that does sell bottle water, sodas and snacks.
First off, tomorrow sounds pretty good for amtrak and acela, so hold off on your "last sight" for the amtrak trains. But a pretty good spot that I have seen used is the Penn Station ventilation area, to the west of the station. Mr. Bob Vogel has some shots from that location on his site at Chuchubob's Community Webshots, and mapquest has some aerial photos of the holes, Here
Last sunday, when approaching San Jose CA airport from San Diego, I looked out the window and saw VRE coaches in the railyards. Are these coaches being used by the CALTRAIN commuter service?
That's kind of strange, since I think VRE is so regular in their train management that they even tell you what individual cars are on each train and where they're stored in the yard!
some 14 VRE 'Boise Budds' were leased(?) bought by CalTrain to expand capacity on the opening of PacBell Ball &Park.
Oh... that explains why they're no longer on the consist list.
So now my best chance to get to ride an RDC is still CMSL. And I'd have to take a bus there.
The VRE cars will come back after CalTrain gets more of its own equipment, right?
I don't think so. The VRE has a few more gallery cars waiting for rebuilding. The single level cars does not offer the same amount of seats as a two level car. VRE is handicap with a 6 car limitation in Ivy City yard.
No, becasue Caltrainoriginally leased them, and then bought them as the price was right.
Ironic, then, that to increase capacity, VRE leased Sounder cars.
-Hank
They've only been out here in California for almost two years now. They are the former RDC cars converted to loco-hauled cars, known as "Boise Budds".
They were originally supposed to be used only on ballpark extras, as the SF Giants' park (PacBell Park) is a block from their SF terminus and the train is the best way to get there, no traffic. The cars have been used on a couple occasions in regular service, but only on weekends.
I was hoping to take a trip to the Fresh Pond Interchange yard where CP Rail transfers the R142 cars on flatbed to whoever (NYCT?) to be taken to Junius on the 1 and up...How do I get to this yard and where is it located? Thanks a lot fellas.
If you're talking about THE Fresh Pond Road Yard in Queens, it's very simple...take the M train to Metropolitan Ave., the last stop. The M is elevated..actually, right where the yard is, is where the M transitions from elevated to surface line...you can't miss it, it's right next to the train.
The other thing you can do, although you won't see as much as you will from the train, is get of at Fresh Pond Rd. station, the yard is right there. Actually, you probably won't see much except a lot of parked buses, because right under the station is a bus yard.
It's a very safe neighborhood called Ridgewood. Actually, the neighborhood itself is worth checking out, it's mostly Eastern European now (Yugoslavian and Albanian mostly, from what I can tell), and there are a lot of great bakeries and stores. It's a great place to walk around.
The NY & A yard is located on Otto Road. But this is private property, so be advised.
Bill "Newkirk"
The best way to see the NY&A's Fresh Pond Yard is to take one of the two LIRR trains that use the Lower Montauk line between Jamaica and Long Island City - they go right through the yard.
Take the M train to the Metropolitan. Just after Fresh Pond Station, look out the sides of the train, as you will pass right over/next to it. When you get out at the station, you can walk through the cemetary towards the tracks which run right along it. You used to be able to cross over to Otto Road on the other side of the tracks, but the NY & A is alot more security conscious than the LIRR was. For a legal crossing, walk a little further through the cemetary along the tracks and you will come to a grade crossing where the old LIRR Glendale station was, where you can safely cross. Then you have to zig zag through a few blocks to get to Otto Road and the other side of the yard.
The N train will not B operational running across the
"""""MANNY B """"" being rebiult right ???
should hava shot it on video back in 2000 right ????????
now i have to wait until 2004 right ???
N trains did not run across the Manhattan Bridge in 2000 (at least in regular service). They did not run as such since 1990.
Do the Q trains still use the Manhatten?
Both the circle-Q and the diamond-Q use the Manhattan Bridge (under normal circumstances). So does the W.
The N has not run over the Manhattan Bridge since the late 80's except for a three-month period in 1990 and occasional reroutes due to track work in lower Manhattan/downtown Brooklyn and the DeKalb rehab.
As for the future, some have speculated that the N will return to the bridge when the north side tracks reopen in 2004 and others have speculated that it will not. At this point, apparently, the TA is considering all options.
That's what I'm worrying about----The TA considering all opitions. When they consider all options my train winds up terminating at 86th Street and some other line goes to Coney. Then the Sea Beach goes from an express to a local, and then to top it off they take it off the bridge and exile it into the vermin infested Montague Tunnel, Pardon me if I am a little skeptical about the TA and its "options".
I took an N today from Kings Highway to Lawrence, where I transferred (with the help of an unlimited card) to the A at Jay. I wouldn't have been able to do that if the N had gone over the bridge.
Locals aren't bad for everyone.
I took an N today from Kings Highway to Lawrence, where I transferred (with the help of an unlimited card) to the A at Jay. I wouldn't have been able to do that if the N had gone over the bridge.
Pre-Chrystie of course you could have transferred from the Sea Beach to the A Train. Get off at Myrtle Avenue and walk to Jay Street.
Pre-Chrystie, the Sea Beach didn't stop at Myrtle.
No, the pre-Chrystie version of the N probably used the DeKalb/Myrtle bypass.
My point is simply that neither a local nor an express is inherently superior -- it depends where you're going. Some Sea Beach passengers would prefer if their train ran over the bridge but others would prefer if it stayed exactly as it is. Which would the majority prefer? I could guess, but as I haven't actually seen the relevant numbers, I would be guessing. All I know for sure is that one particular resident of California would prefer the former.
There is a relevant number that has been stated many times in the newspapers. At least 75% of Manhattan office workers work in midtown rather than downtown.
Basically, in rush hour 75% or more of the people on every line want the quickest possible way into midtown (the exception is the J/Z because passengers for midtown try to get to use lines if they can). Even R riders are no exception; the R will go to lower Manhattan for the rest of all our lives but most of them change for a bridge train to midtown.
That's one relevant number, but it's not enough.
Do Sea Beach riders work in average places? Perhaps, for whatever reason, they tend to work in lower Manhattan. Unlikely but not implausible -- people move to places with convenient transportation, and with the N having been a local since 1988 (except for three months in 1990), the Sea Beach area has been particularly attractive to those who need to travel to local stops.
I'm sure a lot of Sea Beach riders get off at 23rd and 28th. Would they prefer direct local service or would they prefer faster express service with a transfer at 14th? The answer varies from person to person; I don't know which is the more common preference.
Rush hour is only a small portion of the day, and off-peak ridership has been growing. What sort of service do off-peak Sea Beach riders want? I don't know.
Since there is no more fanatical Sea Beach fan than me I will speak for all of us. We want express and the bridge. How that for chutspah?
If you rode the Sea Beach on a regular basis (now!), that would count as one vote (of tens or hundreds of thousands). Since you live in California and don't ride the Sea Beach on a regular basis, your vote doesn't even count for that much. Sorry.
Yeah I mean it's one thing to make a few jokes once in a while but you keep saying your piece about the Sea Beach and the bridge over and over and over. We all know what you want, we all know you don't really want to do anything about it but complain, and we'd rather not hear it from you in every one of your posts.
Hey Doobie, I hope that doesn't go for me too. I complain about how the Sea Beach gets shafted and that may wear thin for some people. But those who know me and know of me take it with a grain of salt. They know what a fanatical Sea Beach fan I am and always have been.
Well David, you know how to hurt a guy. Since I am the biggest Sea Beach fanatic around my vote should count at least half a point anyway. Well that's show biz.
Hey, the Sea Beach is one of my favorite lines. I don't ride it often, though, and when I do it's solely for railfanning purposes (I can think of only one time I rode the Sea Beach because I needed to travel from its general vicinity, and even then the West End was closer, but I walked to 62nd so I'd get to ride the Sea Beach), so my preference is simply irrelevant when it comes time for the TA to decide which of the many possible service plans best serves the actual riders who actually have places to go.
You have what is known as Logos when it comes to the Sea Beach. You are logical all the way. I have what is called Pathos, emotional to a fault. And the fact is I'm 3000 miles away, so most of the time I have to enjoy the my favorite line vicariously
Thank you David---you hit the nail right on the beam. But my belief is a majority of us Sea Beach fanatics (there are more than a few, believe it or not) would prefer the Manny B, an express, and a route to Stillwell Avenue.
Well I'm real happy for you David but try the 4th Avenue Local next time. You should know by now that the Sea Beach as a local is like waiving a red flag in front of a bull.
As for the future, some have speculated that the N will return to the bridge when the north side tracks reopen in 2004 and others have speculated that it will not. At this point, apparently, the TA is considering all options.
With 4 tracks operating on the bridge, the N will definatley run on it. Nothing's official, but some things are perfectly safe to assume.
You've stated your opinion repeatedly but I don't think you've ever justified it. Why do you think no other options are even remotely possible? There are four places Sea Beach trains can go; how do you rule out the other three?
You've stated your opinion repeatedly but I don't think you've ever justified it. Why do you think no other options are even remotely possible? There are four places Sea Beach trains can go; how do you rule out the other three?
The Manhattan Bridge is thought of as the most desired way into Manhattan. (Whether it actually is is another matter completely.) With both sides open, four services can use the Bridge. IIRC, in descending order, ridership goes:
1. Brighton Express
2. Brighton Local
3. West End
4. Sea Beach
5. Bay Ridge
This means that IF the Manhattan Bridge service is maximised, 2 Brighton, 1 West End and 1 Sea Beach service will operate across it. What most people are speculating is that the Brighton Express and Sea Beach will use the South Side and the Brighton Local and West End will use the North Side.
All that has been done at this point (in the way of planning) is inputting the location of switches into the computer system. Other information, such as ridership data, has not been input yet, no simulations have been run, and no decisions have been made.
David
Other information, such as ridership data, has not been input yet, no simulations have been run, and no decisions have been made.
I am aware of that - that is why I emphasised it was speculation, although well-founded speculation at that.
I think (but again, this is SPECULATION) that the Q will be local and will operate 24/7 and the D will be the part time express.
The B will operate to the Bronx all times. This will also improve CPW local service during off peak hours.
Now, this is again just speculation. The last time trains went to both Broadway and 6th, 6th was the express. I also know the MTA prefers not to confuse people by swapping a local for an express, except at night.
Also, don't most people favor 6th? I favor Broadway.
"....the Q will be local and will operate 24/7 and the D will be the part time express. The B will operate to the Bronx at all times."
Pigs of Royal Island, this is one of the few times that I don't agree with what you have to say, albeit just your speculation.
Seems to me that if you mean the Q will be 24/7 and run Broadway express and bridge, as now, there will have to be a 24/7 Broadway local. Together with the 24/7 B from the Bronx, that's 3 24/7 southern division trains connecting Manhattan and Brooklyn overnight, instead of the 2 24/7 now. I doubt that the TA will up the extra expense, and I doubt that that expense would be justified. If on the other hand you mean that the Q will run Broadway local and tunnel overnight, there would be 2 24/7 trains, as now. But the Brighton has more ridership than the West End and midtown has more than downtown. Seems to me that the order of preference would be that the Brighton goes to midtown, the West End to downtown. In either case, the D will be 24/7 as before, and the W would run (preferably to the N, again ridership preference) Broadway local overnight.
You've explained why it's a reasonable guess that the N will be back on the bridge in a few years. I never doubted that, and I won't be surprised if it happens. My question was why Chris didn't consider the other possibilities even remote options.
One flaw in your reasoning is that any preference (e.g., for trains over the bridge) that applies to a large group also applies to any subgroup. Perhaps people have settled along the Sea Beach in the past decade and change specifically for the direct lower Manhattan/local service available there. Even if the bridge is generally considered more desireable, perhaps the Sea Beach ridership prefers the tunnel. Or perhaps not. I don't know; I haven't seen the results of origin-destination surveys on the line, and I doubt anyone else participating in this thread, with possibly one exception, has seen them either. I'll take that exception's word in the matter, which is that all options are being considered.
One flaw in your reasoning is that any preference (e.g., for trains over the bridge) that applies to a large group also applies to any subgroup.
You are right, but I don't see any way of avoiding that fallacy with the information available. It is fair to say that it would be no surprise if, come 2004, the N and Q run on the South Side of the Bridge, but equally it wouldn't be too surprising for ANYTHING else to happen (Yes, even the N being replaced by the J and Z). The only option I doubt is the abolition of 4th Av Express and the Sea Beach being turned into a shuttle.
We agree. The way to avoid that fallacy is to not make assuptions about it. If that means that not enough information is available (to us) to determine where the N will run, or even where it should run, so be it. I won't be surprised if the N runs over the south side of the bridge, as some have surmised, but I also won't be surprised if it runs over the north side or it continues running through the tunnel. (I will be a bit surprised if it runs up Nassau, but only a bit.)
I would personally be very surprised and disappointed if the N runs through the tunnel. I think NYCT is smarter than that.
Of course, maybe I will be surprised.
Will you be disappointed even if it turns out that the tunnel is the best place to put the N based on the actual facts (as opposed to your guesses)?
OK, If NYCT announces that "As a result of our customer surveys we find that the best place for the N train to go is through the tunnel" I will not be disappointed. I will however be extremely surprised, since there are many FACTS (not guesses) that make that sort of survey result extremely unlikely (but not impossible). But if they say they took such a survey and got those results I'll believe them.
I sure as hell will be. But you knew that anyway and so does everyone else on board.
I'm with Fred on this one: the N belongs on the bridge. I still remember when it ran express along Broadway and used the bridge.
oh well i wish it stii did !! maybe i will shoot it anyway !!
The N deserves to be shot, like a crippled horse
oh well i wish it still did !! maybe i will shoot it anyway !!
Hey AIM, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the N was still stuck in that rat infested tunnel. Nothing the TA decides on would surprise me in the least. Perhaps I'm too cynical on this score but I have seen my Sea Beach burned before so I'm setting myself up not to be disappointed again.
N Never will be a Exp Again on the Slow Beach, which does not go to a beach anymore
I thought the N was never an express on the Slow Beach even when it went to the beach.
If you're trying to be funny you haven't made been successful. And stop taking lessons from Bob because he;s not funny either.
Au contraire mon ami. They're both very humorous. When we don't see the humor we'll only remember that these are the long-run tragic results of warp-mind Hylan.
Well I'll agree on the last few words of your post. Hylan was a pure out and out horse's ass.
He must have been a Rrepublican.
Maybe not, but the two of you together are something else.:-)
Just wait and see
Believe me, I can hardly wait.:-)
Uh-oh, Bob's back. Welcome back to the Bob and Fred Show!:-)
I see you've kept informed during your long absence, Bob. A very good point, that the Slow Beach doesn't even go to the beach anymore. And if my understanding is correct, come September it won't even go to Manhattan at night, anymore.
As I said they should sub the N Train, from 59th St, with some of the Brooklyn Trolleys they have and use it as a light Rail, it would be mmore efficent
I know I would be surprised if the N were to be put on the north side of the bridge. That would put it on 6th Avenue. Where would it go from there?
The Bronx? Washington Heights? Maybe Queens?
Or, if you prefer this terminology (I do), the B train (say) from the Bronx could run down the Sea Beach, with the W remaining as it is today and perhaps some sort of supplemental Broadway local service to fill in for the missing N.
(Do Sea Beach riders overwhelmingly prefer Broadway service? Do West End riders overwhelmingly prefer 6th Avenue service?)
Are you on the TA. Sending the Sea Beach to the Bronx is just some hairbrain scheme the TA would come up with. David: The Sea Beach is the BMT. BMT trains have no damn business in the Bronx. Is there no sense of tradition anymore?
And the Brighton and West End aren't the BMT? They ran to the Bronx until a year ago.
Is there no sense of tradition anymore?
Hopefully not. Tradition is nothing more than a fear of progress.
"Even if the bridge is generally considered more desireable, perhaps the Sea Beach ridership prefers the tunnel."
Because 75%+ of rush hour riders are going to midtown, on no line to the majority of riders prefer the tunnel at that time. Even on the Bay Ridge (R) line, the majority prefer the bridge.
Common sense and minimization of switching suggests that there is probably only room for 4 services on the bridge, while there are 5 lines (counting Brighton local and express separately). In addition, you need 2 services for the tunnel, one for Bway and one for Nassau St.
It makes sense to leave the R line as the only line without a bridge service because it is the shortest (counting from where it diverges from all other lines) and making it go through the tunnel incoveniences the fewest people.
So, IT MAKES VERY GOOD SENSE for the N to go over the bridge. Can anyone guarantee this will happen? Of course not.
Because 75%+ of rush hour riders are going to midtown, on no line to the majority of riders prefer the tunnel at that time. Even on the Bay Ridge (R) line, the majority prefer the bridge.
In reality, this is of course true. Mathematically, this needn't be true.
Say the ridership were divided up between the five lines as follows:
Brighton Express 20% + 2 riders
Brighton Local 20% + 1 rider
West End 20%
Sea Beach 20% - 1 rider
Bay Ridge 20% - 2 riders
Now, you claim that 75% of riders of the total of those five lines want to go to Midtown. It follows that 25% don't want to go to Midtown. 25% is greater than ANY of those percentages (which incidentally maximise the possible ridership on the least popular two as a percentage), so it is entirely possible that on any one of those lines exactly no-one wants to go to Midtown. Not true, but possible, so it isn't possible to deny categorically that it could be the case that the Majority of Sea Beach riders want a destination other than Midtown.
"it isn't possible to deny categorically that it could be the case that the Majority of Sea Beach riders want a destination other than Midtown"
Of course not. If there were a sociological phenomenon that made some line's riders particularly prone to working in one area of Manhattan, then the majority of some line riders might want to go downtown.
But there is no such phenomenon. Downtown has a lower median income (skim off the top earners and many of the rest are clerks, etc.) than midtown, but it's not as though one part of S Brooklyn, when looked at in N-S slices rather than E-W slices, is far more working class than another either. Coney Island has lower income and Midwood has higher, but multiple lines serve both those places.
Because 75%+ of rush hour riders are going to midtown, on no line to the majority of riders prefer the tunnel at that time.
That doesn't follow at all. You're assuming that the 75% figure is distributed uniformly around Brooklyn. I've seen no evidence of such an assumption. In fact, I've posted a possible reason such an assumption would not hold: people prefer to live near train services that take them where they need to go and, conversely, people prefer to take jobs near train services that are easily accessible from home. You haven't addressed that point.
You also haven't addressed the point I made (in another thread, I think in response to a post of yours, but I'm not sure) that 23rd Street and 28th Street are local stops in Midtown. Yes, some would prefer to have a faster ride on an express and to transfer at 14th, but I guarantee that others would prefer the option of a one-seat ride, even if it takes ten minutes longer.
And you've entirely ignored off-peak ridership patterns. Most subway rides are off-peak.
On Saturday May 25, I rode the Sea Beach when I first hit town for the holiday and lo and behold it went over the Manny B. On the way back to my hotel it did not.
That was time when they were doing some track work on Montague Street Tunnel.
I gave Fred a heads-up about that before he flew to New York. Sounds as if he got his money's worth - an N over the bridge and a Sea Beach express run on the museum Triplex train.
I got my money's worth allright. It was a gas.
I know some kind of work they could do on the Montague Tunnel---Seal it up.
With you inside to make sure the seal is adequate?
:0)
Smartass!!!! Well I gave a sarcastic answer and you gave one back to me. I can dig it. But no, I don't want to be in there when they seal it. Too many rats. But you could take my place if you want to.
HEHE You remember FRED, you call it a "rat infested" tunnel, because there are too many rats down there
You bet Express, I certainly did say that, and that is one reason why I would rather have Bayside down there if the thing got sealed up than me. I hear Ron is totally unafraid of rats. I prefer pet mice.
I think Ron gotten use to seeing rodents lirking around. Speaking of rodent, just last week I was at the Union Turnpike Station waiting for Manhattan Bound E. And I this unafraid rodent running toward me. Then this rodent stop at 2ft in from of me and stare at me for sec. I Slightly walk toward the rodent and pound my feet to gave its a scare. And He stand there still looks at me. As the train approaching into station, I made an movement toward the moving train. The rodent started to running like hell back to direction where he came from. And I start laughing and people at train look at me and think that I'm crazy. :)
Those creatures aren't even afraid of us. Imagine if they were close to our size. They would probably wipe us out. I still remember the one I saw at the Utica Avenue Station back in '99. Went right past me like I wasn't even there. No fear whatsoever.
Sea Beach Fred writes: "Those creatures aren't even afraid of us. Imagine if they were close to our size."
Fred ole pal its obvious that you never worked in the coal mines of West Virginia. The miners there take good care of the tunnel rats and share their lunch with them. The reason? The rats are the first to run when they smell coal gas which is an impending sign of an explosion. When the miners see the rats take off they drop their tools and follow.
Best Wishes
Larry,RedbirdR33
Very interesting Larry. I wasn't aware that the miners and rats were friends of a sort, and, no, I have never worked in the coal mines of West Virginia and never hope to.
Rats leaving a sinking ship...so to speak.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know some kind of work they could do on the Montague Tunnel---Seal it up.
Hey that'd be fun!!! I could just about imagine the R train doing a handbrake turn into the Nassau St Line!
"This is Whitehall St. This is an R train to 96th St Bay Ridge (How the hell?). Hold on tight - if you thought that curve after City Hall was fun, you'll love this one..."
either the N runs acros the manny B or it does not ............
which witch is which .........??
Right now it does NOT.
In the future, it is hard to tell, but I'd guess it will NOT then either.
ok ..i guess i will eventually get a eye witness report sooner or
later !!
& not to think of it from those who actually DO live in new york city !!!!!
all hell will break loose if it does !!!! he he he he he he he ....
lol !!!..........lol .!!!!!!!!!!
ok so the Q & the B are the only trains that use the manny b !! ??
No, the B's south terminus is 34th Street. The circle-Q, diamond-Q, and W use the bridge.
....excelento..!! ....thankz a whole lot .......!!!
....lol.!!
ok so the Q & the B are the only trains that use the manny b !! ??
You're right that the Brighton and West End Lines are the only lines that use the Manny B at the moment. However, I think you'll find the West End Line is now called the W Train, not the B. Really, everyone knows it should be the T Train anyway...
too bad they dont use r 32s & r-38s !!!
Oh...look at this... a guy from the UK discussing the NYC Subway with a fool from LA....that IS rich.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh...look at this... a guy from the UK discussing the NYC Subway with a fool from LA....that IS rich.
Even if he is a fool, which may be likely if he hasn't noticed Fred going on and on (quite rightly) about his train being stuck in the "rat-infested Montague St Tunnel", he deserves a brief and accurate response. A response along the lines of "You are an idiot" and I'm going to go on for half an hour fuming about it is (1) inflammatory and (2) a waste of time. Remember, time is money ;-) and oh, yeah - if that's rich, I could do with some of the $$$$!
(sarcasm on) LOL!!!! (sarcasm off and is not directed at you, British James)
Thank you sir Mr British James because i did not direct anything of
any kind of negative at Mr (((( SUBWAYSURF ))))....!!!
I wanted to know if the N train was worthy of shooting a video
like i did the JML 7 5 2 A Q etc.....
I was trying to find out if this N train gos across Manny B what a
nice addition to my video collection that would be !!!
My reasons for asking was for information collection........
>>>>sorry (((( SUBWAYSURF )))) again thank you for helping me sir !!
sincrely, SalaamAllah ""westcoast transit photography king""!!!
...........lol !!!!!
Hey Surf, that was uncalled for. You kill filed me once and if you can't be civil and courteous about your responses you ought to keep your damn mouth shut and move on. This is how feuds are started and one of the reasons this site was shut down some months ago. Show some class and wise up. You don't have to be living in New York to be a NY subway fanatic. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you aren;t a jerk----so I will. THIS TIME.
thank you !! i agree with you 100% this board is priceless and gives me a learning experence i value highly !!
We must not allow no ONE FOOL to get this borad shut down ever again!
Sincerely, SalaamAllah
SUBWAYSURF ?? did you call me a ((""fool from LA....""))...!!??
..@..jesus!! ....i did not call you any foul names .......lol !!!!
if others on this board want to discuss on topic subjects then
please refraim in da' future from such a insult like
((( fool from LA....))) nobody said anything negative bout' U !!!
whasuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupppp??.........give me a break folks !!
so what if I live in the western part of the united states ....
I am having a good time here shooting on video & digital stills all
of the rolling stok I can find meeting greeting learning everything
from the history of rail trnsit here in los angeles and all over tha'
world !! ( not just in the nyc area ) & thanks to the webmaster who
runs the greatest transit site in these united states etc...
I have opened up myself to a whole new world here !! the endless
new personalities I have met like Mr Robert Johnson yardmaster of
the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE RAIL SYSTEM here and other endless possibilities are endless !! HAVING A WONDERFUL TIME HERE !!!
in spite of ((((( subwaysurf ))))) being such a total negative !!
lol !!!
HERE I AM IN FRONT OF ""BIG RED"" HAVING THE TIME OF MY LIFE!!
>>>>>>>>>>ENJOY<<<<<<<<<.......LOL !!!!
Salaam, you give a real dynamic presence in your photo. Looks to me as if you;re ready to take the world on. I was a little taken back by what Surf had said and felt there was no need for it. The fact is you can live on the West Coast and still love the New York Subway. I do recall you telling me you still felt like a New Yorker at heart, and while I am now California all the way in my bones I did live in New York the first 14 years of my life and riding the subway was one of the great memories of my childhood. Surf should appreciate the fact we still feel an emotional tug to the subway. I hope this ends this mini=feud.
yea......thankz ....lol !!!
see you at the orange empire museum !!!
In the Westchester yard there are some small diesel locos, for example numbers DL903 and DL906. Also E07, which may be an electric loco. Who made these and when? What is the horsepower? Thank you.
Did you check the roster for these Republic Locomotive?
NYCTA Locomotive Roster
Can anybody that remembers the Banker's Specials during the early-mid 1960's answer the following questions:
1. What routes did the Specials use??
2. What were their schedules?
3. What rolling stock was used?
4. Where the trains designated by a letter (s)?
Thanks, Tony
I can remember 1965-1967, AM rush hours. The M line ran from Coney Island local to Kings Highway and then express to Prospect Park, with the final passenger destination Chambers St. The line's equipment was Brightliners, exclusively. There was also a TT West End local with signs of Coney Island and Chambers St., also with Brightliners exclusively. Thus, four different lines used Track 2 at Dekalb Av. in the AM rush: M, QT, RR, and TT.
I have an image of dirty R-27/30's (no graffitti) on the express track at Sheepshead Bay, signed up (M) Chambers St.
Bill "Newkirk"
Going back to the late 1950s, there were four Nassau loop rush hour routes. Two of them, the Culver Express and the West End Short Line (or West End Local) appeared on the regular service guides. The other two, serving the Brighton and 4th Ave. lines, did not, and probably qualified as "Bankers' Specials".
In those days, all of these routes used BMT Standards, plus some ex-SIRT cars on the Culver. The 4th Ave. and West End services operated northbound via the Nassau loop (tunnel to Manhattan, bridge to Brooklyn), and the Brighton and Culver services southbound. The Culver and 4th Ave. trains used the switches north of DeKalb to get from the bypass tracks to the tunnel, the West End and Brighton specials stopped at DeKalb (although, I understand that prior to the Mid-1950s, there was a connection from the bypass tracks to the Brighton line south of DeKalb which allowed the Brighton Bankers' specials to bypass DeKalb.)
-- Ed Sachs
The "Know Trains at a Glance" signs on Southern Division platforms during the 60s included an M-Nassau St. Express designation.
It is worthwhile to note that the M carried on Brighton and 4th Avenue-Nassau Banker's Specials pre-Chrystie had nothing at all to do with the post-Chrystie M services, all of which involves Myrtle service in some way.
The M was intended for what used to be called the Myrtle-Chambers service from day one but was used for the Banker's Special as a matter of convenience. At that same time, the Eastern Division used only numbers, so the Myrtle Chambers was 10.
It also didn't hurt that both M services used Nassau St. at some point. You're right: they used the M marking for Banker's Specials as a matter of convenience.
Yeah, the R27s and R32s had the generic-sounding "M-Nassau Street Express" on the roll signs as delivered, so I guess that was a natural fit.
generic-sounding "M-Nassau Street Express" on the roll signs as delivered
I've seen that before. How can you have a "Nassau Street Express"? All the stations on the Nassau Line are "Express" stations, there are no local stations. Waht did they mean by "Nassau Express"?
They meant "an express running to Nassau Street." So JJ was a "Nassau Street Local" and J a "Nassau Street Express" but the local or express running was on Broadway Brooklyn.
Same as the R1/9 signs "F/6th Av.--Houston Express". There was no 6th Av. express on the IND until the merger with the BMT. At the time, I suppose it meant that the F was express somewhere along its route, not necessarily under 6th Av.
I had a huge issue with the "E-8th Ave. Express" side route signs on the R-1/9s after what happened on Sept. 23, 1967. When that E train we took that morning stopped at 23rd St., all hell broke loose. Talk about being betrayed. It was more than any other reason I insisted on taking A trains after that, no matter what.
Incidentally, the BMT standards had "Myrtle Av. Exp." route signs even though the #10 Myrtle-Chambers route didn't run express along the Myrtle Ave. portion at all. It meant what you referred to: it ran express at some point along its route.
During the evening rush the #2 4 Avenue- Nassau St trains carried an "M" on the front sign and "S Special" on the side signs. This differentiated them from the #1 Brighton-Nassau trains which carried the "M Nassau St Express" on the side signs. During the evening rush the 4 Avenue-Nassau trains ran local in Brooklyn south of Dekalb Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Say Larry, do you have any info as to what marker light combinations the Banker's Specials used?
My recollections from the late 1950s were that the Culver Express were Red-Red and the 4th Ave. Bankers Specials were White-White.
-- Ed Sachs
Culver-Nassau had the rather pleasant green and yellow.
West End Short Line was the odd (and difficult but not impossible to see) combination of yellow and white.
Brighton specials were red and yellow with a bullseye.
Fourth Avenue specials were white and white with a bullseye.
All c.1965 but probably accurate all the way to 1931.
Steve: Circa October 1962. #1 Brighton-Nassau had G-G in the am and R-G or R-Y in the pm. 6 to 8 B Types.
#2 4 Avenue-Nassau W-W to Broad St, G-G to 95 Street. 8 R-types or 6 B Types.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In the 1950s, morning 4th Avenue Specials (with six-car 67-footer trains) ran local from 95th to 59th, then express (skipping 36th, the same as Sea Beach expresses, until it was decided to have them both stop there around 1955--that date is subject to correction) to Pacific. After Pacific, the next stop was Chambers Street, using the H tracks on the Manhattan Bridge. I think they usually returned to Brooklyn as Culver expresses.
Brighton Specials in the morning skipped DeKalb and Myrtle after Atlantic Avenue. That ended as soon as the bypass connection was ripped out as part of the DeKalb reconstruction. In the evening, Brighton Specials ran from Chambers downtown through the Tunnel, stopping at Court, Lawrence, and DeKalb, and then express down the Brighton to Coney Island.
Fourth Avenue Specials in the evening started at Broad Street, stopping at Fulton, Chambers, then over the Bridge, skipping Myrtle and DeKalb, and express to 59th, local to 95th.
Regular Nassau Loop service in rush hours was Culver express (Bridge, skipping DeKalb and Myrtle, Nassau, Tunnel, including Court and Lawrence, then skipping DeKalb and running express to 36th) and West End local (Tunnel, Nassau, Bridge, stopping at Myrtle and DeKalb).
When I started high school on the East Side, my usual route was the
Fourth Avenue Special to Chambers and Lexington Avenue Express to 86th,
taking about 45 minutes if the connection at Chambers/Brooklyn Bridge was o.k. I'd get on at Bay Ridge Avenue, then we'd stop at 59th, Pacific, Chambers (walk to IRT), 14th, Grand Central, and 86th--seven stops. Can't do that any more.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
When I started high school on the East Side
Stuyvesant HS?
-- Ed Sachs
Stuyvesant HS - Class of 1963
Were those trains signed up as "Via tunnel then via Bridge to Brooklyn" or something similar?
The later BMT standard cars (not sure of the numbers) had larger roll signs in the windows (in place of the ones in the door pockets). On those, there were indications something like (picture the middle line larger type than the top and bottom lines:
via bridge thru
Nassau Loop
then via tunnel to brooklyn
via tunnel thru
Nassau Loop
then via bridge to brooklyn
However, I don't recall these being used on the Nassau Loop trains on a regular basis.
They, and the older standards had a "Nassau St" indication, and I do recall seeing that used often.
In the early 1960s, the AM Brighton specials (Standards) were usually signed (the two sets on the Standard cars):
Express
Nassau St
and
Express
Chambers St
Of course, in those days, the trains deadheaded back to Brooklyn via the Manhattan bridge without passengers.
-- Ed Sachs
The later BMT standard cars (not sure of the numbers)
2500-2899 and 4000-4049, 2500 series was ACF, the rest Pressed Steel.
had larger roll signs in the windows (in place of the ones in the door pockets). On those, there were indications something like (picture the middle line larger type than the top and bottom lines:
VIA BRIDGE THRU
N A S S A U L O O P
VIA TUNNEL TO B'KLYN
Just substitute BRIDGE<-->TUNNEL etc. for the other direction.
However, I don't recall these being used on the Nassau Loop trains on a regular basis.
They, and the older standards had a "Nassau St" indication, and I do recall seeing that used often.
The large sign NASSAU LOOP designations were used all the time on two services, the West End Short Line, which ran north through the loop, and the Culver Express, which ran south, both during rush hours.
In the early 1960s, the AM Brighton specials (Standards) were usually signed (the two sets on the Standard cars):
Express
Nassau St
and
Express
Chambers St
My memory is a little different, possibly because I recall when the Brighton Specials ran SOUTH through the loop. It was EXPRESS / BROAD STREET and EXPRESS / NASSAU STREET. Whether the one sign said BROAD or CHAMBERS might have been indication of whether the train was running north or south through the loop.
Of course, in those days, the trains deadheaded back to Brooklyn via the Manhattan bridge without passengers.
Practice varied. On West Ends and Culvers you could ride the whole thing. On the others, the schedule shifted.
The diamond R ran from 4th/Fort Ham to Chambers and was called a Banker's Special.
The Diamond R was the successor to the Fourth Avenue Banker's Special but it was a pale survival, running local all thw way from 95th Street, where the real Banker's Special was an express after 59th Street.
That was the brown R, wasn't it?
Yes. Calling it "diamond R" is an anachronism.
And and after Chrystie and before it was the brown R it was the RJ. The color was purple(?) or mauve(?) or something.
Paul, about the brown diamond R...from when to when did that run?
In the brown diamond R form, I mean....as far as the maps are concerned, that is.
May 1987 to November 1987.
They also never ran to/from Chambers St. They ALL ran to/from Metropolitan Ave, in both directions.
The R??
I believe you are mistaken, I'm talking about the rush-hour RR/R that went from Chambers (Manhattan) to 95th (B'klyn) in the evening, and to Chambers from 95th in the morning.
Exactly. In it's final days, the R special (brown) always ran to/from Metropolitan Ave.
You mean Metropolitan Ave. to 95th St.??
Are you sure??
I honestly dont recall ANY R/RR Nassau specials going to Metropolitan Ave at all!!! In between the AM and PM rush hours, the 3 or 4 specials were laid up on the storage tracks north of Chambers (the ones that used to lead to the MannyB southside). Then after the PM trip to 95 St, those trains were sent up to Astoria in regular R service. Tony
In 1986/87, the Nassau St. R almost ALWAYS ran to/from Metropolitan Ave.
100% positive.
The "brown" R existed for less than a year in 1987. From 1968 to 1987, the Nassau/4th Ave special was always depicted as a yellow R in a diamond, with the bizarre seperation of the yellow and brown lines at Chambers St. which gave the impression the yellow R had it's own seperate platform on which it would terminate. The brown R existed for about 6 months, from the time of the N/R switch in Queens to it's elimination in November.
Also, no train was ever signed up in the brown R scheme. The R27/30 and R42's assigned to the line did not have them. They used the yellow designation right up to the end. I believe the only cars which have these signs are R68's.
Thanks...
Actually, from about 1972 till the early 80's I believe the Chambers-95th RR was actually in green.
Look at the 1973 map in the historical maps section on this website.
Yup....my bad.
This is not to be confused with the mysterious brown N:
RJ ran from when Chrystie opened in 1967 until 1968. It was red, like the 2 (but a broken line to indicate rush hour/part time service). Its terminals were 168 St/Jamaica & 95 St.
Hi Guys (esp. David Greenberger).
MTA needs you. The Queens Blvd. service plan is working, but certain parties with an axe to grind would like to derail it and 900,000 riders.
Politics isn't about rationality; it's about sqeaky wheels demanding grease. When rationality coincides with political action, we all win. Otherwise, we could lose.
I currently have a Philly address, but I visit and ride often enough so I will be writing MTA anyway to reinforce the reasonableness of the current plan.
David, you have some of the best posts regarding the V, E, F and G trains. So how about taking one of those posts, putting it on paper and sending it to MTA, so they hear your voice as well as the Straphangers?
If you have time to post extensively on Subtalk, you have time to write a letter. It does make a difference.
If you can't afford a first class stamp I'll send you one.
And call the Governor. The NYC number is: (212) 681-4580 .
So, any takers?
I have a unique perspective on the V train.
Up until about a month before the new service began, I was living in Astoria, equidistant from a stop on the Astoria BMT and a local stop on the Queens IND. At the beginning of December, I moved to Park Slope, very near the F line. My job was then and still is in Midtown (East) Manhattan.
My commute from Astoria involved taking the local Queens IND to Queens Plaza station and transferring there to an E or F train through the 53 St. tube -- a two-seat ride. Had I stayed in Astoria for the new V train, I would now have a one-seat ride on the V train from my local stop in Queens to my destination on 53rd St. in Manhattan.
Now consider my commute from Park Slope. If the new V service had not been implemented, I would have a one-seat ride from Park Slope to my 53 St. destination, albeit a much longer distance than I had from Queens. But now, since the F no longer runs on 53 St., I must transfer sometime before my destination to another train. While you would think I could simply get off the F at Broadway-Lafayette or any station prior to 47-50 Sts. to transfer to the V for 53 St. service, what I actually do is utilize a faux-metrocard transfer (using an unlimited-ride card) at Broadway-Lafayette/Bleecker St. to transfer to the uptown no. 6 IRT to 51 St.
My point here is this: If I still lived in Queens, I would be a happy V train user, and probably very much in appreciation of the crowd-reduction the service provides for Queens commuters. But now I'm a Brooklyn commuter, and I sure wish they could find a way to extend the V into Brooklyn to at least 7th Avenue, or maybe even Church. The problem is, the G trains' use of the express tracks near the 4th Avenue station for relaying blocks any use of the Bergen/Carroll/Smith/9th Street express right-of-way for revenue service. (Okay, the other problem is the fire-damaged Bergen Tower plant, but that can be fixed too.) The other big factor is the lack of equipment on hand to use the F line's express capacity, and that with more available trains, the G and V could simultaneously provide local service all the way from Bergen St. to Church or even Stillwell, and the F could run express (similar to the old Brooklyn GG local/F express situation I've heard about from yore!).
On my evening commute, I use the "real" transfer from the downtown no. 6 to the F train at Bleecker/B'way-Lafayette. As I wait for an F train, it frustrates me to watch the virtually empty V trains roll in and out of B'way-Laf. on their way to relay at their next and last stop - 2nd Avenue.
Second Avenue is a ridiculous place for a terminal, since the V trains alternate between the uptown and downtown express/tail tracks. If you make the mistake of riding the V to 2nd Ave., and you want to go to Delancey, E. B'way or Brooklyn, woe to you if your V terminates on the uptown side, because you then have to walk up and down stairs to get back to the correct platform. Not having a cross-platform transfer from a terminating train to continuing service on another train is bad enough. Not having that type of transfer smack in the middle of a commute to Brooklyn is nuts. It's not like a large majority of 6th Avenue IND passengers want to get off in the land of Sheldon Silver anyway. If the TA is not bothered by not having an island platform at their 2nd Ave. terminal, and also not bothered by not having an island platform at their Smith/9th G train terminal, using 7th Avenue as a terminal for the V or the G would work just as well as 2nd Avenue, and provide better service to a large parcel of outer-borough real estate.
The V train works great for Queens passengers, but it's pretty useless for Brooklyn passengers. What we should be writing to the TA about is building the fleet to where track capacity can be fully utilized, not about one particular service that, let's face it, is only helping-out one of the five boroughs!
Keystone Pete
7th ave can't be used as a V terminus because the nearest switch is at Church.
Wait a minute...
Could they extend the V and G to Church Av? And run the F express from Smith-9 to Church?
If not, could they run the V and G express (from Smith/9) to Church and leave the F as the local? Less useful, but at least Brooklyn residents would get some benefit.
You can't run the G express from Bergen Street to Church Avenue. But Using the V as the express to Church Avenue would provide use to Brooklyn Passengers
The switches do allow both of those movements, but why bother implementing an express service that bypasses only three stations, one of them a transfer point? If the F, G, and V all fit on a pair of tracks (and there are enough cars), just run them all local to Church and be done with it.
I appreciate your point of view. The situation will improve a bit with Bergen's repair and with more rolling stock on the way. MTA will then have additional options.
well move back to Astoria if you dont like it.dunno why you moved to brooklyn,thats the absoulte worst place to live in.but untill then deal with it because its not gonna be untill after the manhattan bridge is fully open and when the R160's come in,which is gonna be within the next few years,that the V will get extended to Church Av.
by the way in regard to the R160's,when they come in,the A train is getting them first.the entire A train fleet will be R160's and the R44's and the R38's will be moved elsewhere in which they can be used as extra trains for extra or extended service.the R160's are only gonna retire the R40 slants,R40M's and R42's.oh and um,in no way was i trying to be harsh in this post but i REALLY AM sick and tired of hearing about so many complaints about the V train,it pisses me off to no end.The TA will never ever change anything.so the QB people and the straphangers campaign can keep trying to complain all they want but nothings ever gonna happen,and that is all so true.
R38s are goin first
(my only complaint about the V is that it dosent run enough)
nope sorry the 40's and 42's are going first.i know this because i was told and if i told you who told me that,that would be invasion of privacy so i wont say.
Where have I heard that (someone told me) garbage before?
and where do you live,my friend?
now why in the blue hell you ask me that for? and dont call me your friend,i dont know you.all im gonna say is that i live in the city and im not specifying where.
Because your unprovoked jab at the glorious, but occupied City of Brooklyn is groundless, and Brooklyn is far better than the dump where you live.
If I may, let me be the voice of reason here. THE WHOLE CITY SUCKS!!
But seriously, it bugs me to no end with this baby stuff: Brooklyn is better than Queens, Queens is better than The Bronx, nyeh, nyeh, nyeh!
Every borough has its nice sections and bad sections. Every borough has areas with good transit service and areas with bad transit service. Every borough has their share of stupid residents and with the exception of Staten Island, every borough has their share of intelligent residents!
So lets face it folks, there's no need to argue here.
Nassau sucks worse.
I've said before, if I lived in Forest Hills or Rego Park, and I knew the V trains were running with available seats, I'd leave the house 5 minutes earlier and have a relaxing ride to work without all the pushing and shoving.
Gene Russianoff seems to embody a unique NYC viewpoint that sardine-can express service is more important that comfort; as a NYer for 45 years, I emphatically repudiate it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
When I lived in Forest Hills in the 80s, I often took the N into Manhattan over the E or F. Many mornings I passed trains crawling or sitting on the express tracks. I always got a bit of a giggle out of taking the N to 34th (seated and comfortably reading the Times the whole way), changing to an uptown 6th Av train and getting off at Rock Center as an F I had passed somewhere around Woodhaven Blvd was just lumbering in.
So you are going to write a letter?
I haven't lived in NYC since the late 1980s, and only ridden the subways there a handful of times since. I am not qualified to speak to current service issues since I can only extrapolate from what I read on here.
I'll add it to my list, but I'm afraid it's not on the top.
If I ever do get around to writing to the TA, the first issue I will raise is Broadway IRT local service. The second is major design flaws in the new trains. Both of these affect me personally, while I rarely travel to Queens, almost never during rush hour with the peak flow. Unless something more pressing comes up, this is third. (And, no, I don't have extensive time to post here. I do anyway.)
But thank you for the (repeated) compliments. I don't think my arguments were any more convincing than the ones that didn't convince you regarding AirTrain, which IMO is a case of rationality and politics being at odds (but let's not get into that again).
David,
Regardless of whether I agree with you or not on a specific topic, I usually learn something valuable from reading your posts.
"If I ever do get around to writing to the TA, the first issue I will raise is Broadway IRT local service. The second is major design flaws in the new trains. Both of these affect me personally, while I rarely travel to Queens, almost never during rush hour with the peak flow."
The problem is, the Queens Blvd. issue is subject to a lot more political pressure. If you and others don't respond to it, the Straphangers and their allies may succeed in totally screwing things up. The other issues do affect you, I agree, but they'll still be there when the QB crisis is over.
"(And, no, I don't have extensive time to post here. I do anyway.)"
Don't give me that crap. Look, all you have to do is write the letter first, then copy it to post on Subtalk. The original goes to a piece of paper, which then goes in the mailbox at the same time as your electric bill. You do have time to mail your electric bill, don't you.
Come on Dave. Rational riders everywhere are counting on you. Don't wimp out on me now.
You do have time to mail your electric bill, don't you.
Who says he mails any of his bills? I don't pay an electric bill, but I don't mail any of my bills. Not my phone bill, my satellite bill or my credit card bills.
Of course, I can't speak for him, but I just want to point out that you don't have to mail anything to pay bills anymore.
So you do ebilling? Fine, fax your letter to MTA (email to govt agencies just gets lost). You can do that right from the computer with a fax modem.
During rush hours, the V is bailing out the titanic with a thimble,
but at least it's an improvement. I rarely travel during the rush
hours given my schedule, but when I do, I also favor the 1 seat
all-local ride (R train out of Forest Hills) over the sardine cans
(express to 53/LEX, change for the Lex local).
BUT, _outside of rush hour_, when the system is beyond capacity,
the V is a useless and confusing waste of rolling stock that causes
unnaturally high loading on the E, messes up service patterns for
Manhattan and Brooklyn riders, screws Greenpoint and all the G
riders.
As a compromise (until the Manhattan Bridge is repaired and we
can consider more interesting routings) I believe the V should be
a rush-hour only service.
The Manny B's reopening will help the whole system, directly or indirectly.
In mid-day (and weekends too, actually), you need more service on 6th Ave than just 8 Fs per hour. One suggestion that has been made is that, outside of rush hour, the V terminate at Queens Plaza in the middle relay track. Then the G could go to Continental and 6th Ave would still have acceptable service.
I disagree. If anything, the V in some form should run weekends as well. Direct access between 6th Avenue and 53rd Street is pretty important -- more important, I think, than direct access from the G south of Court Square to Queens Boulevard.
Since you don't ride the "G", screw does that have to use it.
Us Greenpernters want back our connection to services at Queens
Plaza without having to do the CitiCorp Jog. Give us a balance
of G ~ R ~ V on QB to make all happy.
;-) Sparky
"Since you don't ride the "G", screw does that have to use it.
Us Greenpernters want back our connection to services at Queens
Plaza without having to do the CitiCorp Jog. "
And since you obviously don't ride the F or E to Manhattan like 900,000 people do, you don't mind screwing all of them so you don't have to stand on a moving sidewalk to make your transfer. My heart bleeds so badly for you I may need a transplant.
More station improvements are on the way for Court Square. Stop whining long enough to find out about them and you could come up with some useful suggestions as to just how they should be done.
I don't live in Queens either. I don't ride any of the lines in question on a regular basis. I'm making impartial observations.
The fact is simply that there aren't many G riders compared to the number of people bound for Manhattan. There's no way to offer direct one-seat service to everyone, but shouldn't we try to satisfy as many people as we can?
Your transfer is a stroll in the park compared to the much busier transfers at Times Square, 14/7, Union Square, Fulton, Atlantic, and more. I'm afraid your complaints about your new transfer ring hollow. Yes, it's a step down from what you had before, but it's certainly not out of line.
O.K., work this transfer out with service on the 'G' to Court Square.
You want to go to 179th Street~Jamaica from Nassau Avenue on the
'G'. That's three trains & two transfers. 'G' to Court Square,
tranfer to 'E' a/o 'V' to Roosevelt & transfer again to the 'F'.
With service to Continental, would be 'G' to Roosevelt & then the
'F'.
Forget about transfering to Lexington Avenue Express services [4 & 5].
Take the 'G' to Court Square & transfer to 'E' a/o 'V' to Lexington,
transfer to '6' to 59th a/o 86th and slep downstairs or 125th for
across the platform. Used to be 'G' to Queens Plaza and then the
'R' to Lexington Avenue and down to the '4 & 5'. Alternate now,
transfer to '7' at Court Square to Grand Central and lose transfer
for bus at conclusion if required.
This is the MTA "Going Your Way" serving a large community of
Golden Agers. Gents, remember you join us someday.
And 'Ron In Bayside', why don't you go bug sLepta with some Brotherly
Love.
:-) Sparky
"This is the MTA "Going Your Way" serving a large community of
Golden Agers. Gents, remember you join us someday."
Doing the best it can while serving at least five times as many Golden Agers on the Queens Blvd. corridor you just told to go to hell as far as you're concerned. If I were you, I wouldn't whine too much. If you do, at least use the moving sidewalk so you won't trip over yourself.
"And 'Ron In Bayside', why don't you go bug sLepta with some Brotherly
Love. "
I've already taken your advice. And having a good time doing it. Thanks!
It's only one added transfer in either case. (Or in your second example, why not use the L?)
Of course your service isn't as good now as it was before. But some other people have better service than they had before. I guarantee that more people travel between Queens Boulevard local stops and Manhattan V stops than would even dream of your artificial examples.
Oh, BTW, if I need to get to a 6 local station, I need to make two transfers to get there, and unless I want to go all the way down to Fulton or all the way up to the Bronx, both transfers entail longer walks than your new Court Square transfer, and they don't have moving walkways. (And if I do go down to Fulton, that transfer is horrendously long, with lots of ramps and stairs to boot. Have you ever transferred from the 4/5 to the 1/2 at Fulton? Try it out some day and you'll see what I mean.)
How ironic as you as the extra transfer between Bayridge and Citicorp in Queens got you pretty passionate.
Because that one could be easily corrected right now, at least off-peak (there probably aren't enough cars during rush hours), by simply extending the G to Church. This one can't be corrected without messing around with service on other lines.
My point isn't that a transfer isn't a hassle. It's that this particular hassle is outweighed by the improvement in service it offers Manhattan-bound Queens Boulevard passengers, particularly the ones at local stations.
>>>"Of course your service isn't as good now as it was before. But some other people have better service than they had before."<<<
We are not advocating disolvment of service enhancements, we are just
requesting a reinstatement of what we had previously. Why can not
the "G", "R" & "V" run together. IMHO, with eight relay tracks at
179th, the "R" & "V", should be extended and the "F" run Queens Express
from Jamaica, not Forest Hills. This would eliminate the conga line at Continental. Pull ins to Jamaica Yard would be from 179th on the "R" & "V" along with the "E" & "F".
But what it is, is screw the blue colar residents of North Brooklyn.
:-) Sparky
"We are not advocating disolvment of service enhancements, we are just requesting a reinstatement of what we had previously."
That is simply not possible right now. We all wish it were.
"Why can not the "G", "R" & "V" run together."
If you really want to know, look at the many threads run recently that go through it. There aree even a number of different opinions as to where precisely the bottleneck(s) is(are). Look at AIM's postings, for example. And check out the archives.
The MTA ran a trial to see if all these trains could run together. It was a major disaster.
Queens needs more subway trackage. Write your elected officials and push for it.
Actually what is needed is level of discussion that most peope here do not have the objectivity for or the education.
This is really an economics discussion on how to best increase total production with advocates for land (tracks), labor (switchmen) and capital (rolling stock). OK it is a bit over simplified. There are also discussions of markets to target (is the G crowd worth the extra expense), market share (increasing service to lure riders from other alternatives) and the anti-government crowd (work rules) and the disgruntled shareholder who always claims bad management. Also we have discussions on technology and do we look for the long or short term tech solution.
I am surprised no one mentions the Jamaica Yard expansion. That would allow service to terminate at Union or Parsons creating some
extra options.
I would advocate the Enron solution, creative accounting. Forget strip maps make the 160 an improved 46 with giant end sign. Apply virtual train consist accounting. A train is a train, every line has fudge factor, trains are scarce but fudge factor on all lines takes away service. For example besides the gap train the schedules are made so that an incoming can be late to a point without messing up the outbound. Give the TD at CTL the ability to freely swap between V, R and the gap train. Crews would spend less time in the relay. Or keep the current trains in fudge factor BUT still use virtual train accounting. The V is late in and the one in the relay is BO infront of the GAP or a switch down there is out. Send the fudge factor R as a V. It buys you a few extra minutes to find a solution, if you can't then you charge the V line even if it is now the R missing the train.
If nothing else the R or the V or the G should go to 179 St on the over nights and weekends. The congestion on the local track is not as bad as I thought. But if TA wants more people to ride the V line, running it to 179 St might help.
I have no problems with that, but when the Archer Avenue branch first opened, the R ran local to 179th, and passengers at Hillside local stations complained that they wanted the F back.
I wasn't very clear in this post. Let me start over.
Outside of rush hours and shoulders, run the F via 53 St,
express in Queens. Send the V 63 St, local, to Forest Hills.
Fix up the relaying problem at Forest Hills and you can sneak
the G back in there too.
Unfortunately, turning trains from D2 track at QP is no longer
feasible, since the new and improved signal system will lock
trains out of D4 track.
During rush hours, split the services. Pull off some of the Fs
from 53 St and detour them through 63 St.
Really, the ideal solution to QB service would be the project
Larry Littlefield suggests: use the Winfield branch tracks to
create a relay at Roosevelt where trains could be short-turned
or grap trains put-in.
For one thing, that's confusing. Nobody will know where the F goes.
For another, it really shafts the off-peak local passengers, who now have to wait specifically for the R (not the V!) and transfer at QP to get to 53rd.
What's wrong with the current arrangement?
For another, it really shafts the off-peak local passengers, who now have to wait specifically for
the R (not the V!) and transfer at QP to get to 53rd
Umm, wasn't that the way it was for 60 years on Queens Blvd?
If you got on at a local stop and you wanted 6 Ave service,
you changed. Passengers who want 53 St generally want it for
the IRT connection, so take the R and make a more convenient
(and express) connection!
The real shaft job is crosstown riders. They have to make
an awkward transfer to get to Manhattan, and they are cut
off from the Queens Blvd shopping corridor.
What's really wrong with the current arrangement? As I said, in
rush hour, nothing, other than the fact that the E/V merge at
Queens Plaza creates a bottleneck. But off hours, it's a
perpetuation of a trend: taking the Rapid out of Rapid Transit.
Passengers at express stops or those north of Forest Hills who
need the IRT either have to wait for an E or catch a slow local V.
6th ave destinations even take a few minutes longer on the F,
partly because of the circuitous routing (63 St is signalled
very slowly) and partly because the V always manages to blow the
merge at 50/6. And lord help the person who actually needs
to get to downtown Brooklyn.
"The real shaft job is crosstown riders. They have to make
an awkward transfer to get to Manhattan, and they are cut
off from the Queens Blvd shopping corridor. "
Nonsense. Nobody is cut off from anything. They have to change trains, and MTA is working to make the transfer airport-like luxurious.
MTA needs to move people as best it can, not cater exclusively to ungrateful crybabies.
MTA is working to make the transfer airport-like luxurious.
Free limousine service was provided from one's home to the airport prior to WW II. That was luxurious. Today's airport services bear as much resemblance to luxury as airline food does to ...
"Free limousine service was provided from one's home to the airport prior to WW II. "
For the equivalent of $10,000 of today's money for a plane ticket, a traveler had better get limousine service! It's the least the airline could do!
New Yorkers today get, for $1.50 (or less with a Metrocard) the ability to walk out a door, and go just about anywhere in the city. No car, no car insurance, no oil change, no fueling up.
So cretch to your POLITICOS in the Commonwealth, and leave us
New Yawkers in peace. Us Greenpointers are willing to share the
service equally with the R & V and like to shop on Steinway & QP.
:-) Sparky
Why don't you make up a big sign that says that, and stand at Roosevelt-Jackson Heights holding it up. I'm sure the other "New Yawkers" will make sure you get to a hospital after they riot, trample you and deliver your sign to a recycling bin.
WHY DON'T YOU SUCK A LEMON, WITH THAT DISPOSITION. "AIRPORT LUXURY",
if when, it operates properly, BESIDES IT ONE DIRECTIONAL.
:-) Sparky
"WHY DON'T YOU SUCK A LEMON, WITH THAT DISPOSITION. "AIRPORT LUXURY","
It's summer, so I am drinking a lemonade even as we post. Excellent suggestion, thank you.
"if when, it operates properly, BESIDES IT ONE DIRECTIONAL."
You whine a lot better than a California blonde.
Umm, wasn't that the way it was for 60 years on Queens Blvd?
If you got on at a local stop and you wanted 6 Ave service,
you changed. Passengers who want 53 St generally want it for
the IRT connection, so take the R and make a more convenient
(and express) connection!
The 53rd Street stations are popular as destinations in their own rights.
Before December 16, local passengers could take any local, G or R, to Queens Plaza and transfer to 53rd Street service. By your proposal, they'd have to take the R, since the V wouldn't go to Queens Plaza. Besides, why don't you consider it an improvement to the system if local passengers now have better service than they ever had before?
I find it amusing that some people find it out of the question to give express passengers the choice between standing on a crowded E train or sitting for an extra four minutes on an air conditioned V train, but they have no problem giving local passengers no option but to stand on a hot platform for up to five extra minutes.
The real shaft job is crosstown riders. They have to make
an awkward transfer to get to Manhattan, and they are cut
off from the Queens Blvd shopping corridor.
They've always had to make a transfer to get to Manhattan, and the one they have to make now is not awkward at all. As I've said, there are at least nine worse transfer points in Manhattan alone, and none of them have moving walkways (even in one direction, even if only sometimes operational).
As for Queens Boulevard, they have to transfer. Big deal. Most G riders on Queens Boulevard got off at Queens Plaza to transfer. Direct service from the Queens local stations to 53rd Street and 6th Avenue is more useful to more people than direct service from the Queens local stations to Greenpoint.
What's really wrong with the current arrangement? As I said, in
rush hour, nothing, other than the fact that the E/V merge at
Queens Plaza creates a bottleneck. But off hours, it's a
perpetuation of a trend: taking the Rapid out of Rapid Transit.
The function of a subway system is to move people, not trains. It really doesn't matter how fast the trains move if a major segment of the ridership is still standing on the platform. Local passengers pay the same fare as express passengers; on average, they probably pay more per mile.
By your proposal, they'd have to take the R, since the V
wouldn't go to Queens Plaza.
But the G did (and would).
The function of a subway system is to move people, not trains. It really doesn't matter how fast the
trains move if a major segment of the ridership is still standing on the platform. Local passengers
pay the same fare as express passengers; on average, they probably pay more per mile.
Local passengers represent a small portion of the QB ridership.
Before all this schedule mucking, the railroad ran properly
and connections were made mid-day. The E met met the Gs at QP, the
F met the Rs at Roosevelt. No one was standing on a transfer platform
for more than 2 minutes.
Let's face it...the real agenda of the V train service plan is to
cost-justify billions in expenditures (63 St tunnel and the later
connector project) by _forcing_ innocent bystanders (F train riders)
through those useless tubes so the bean counters can say "hey, see,
look how many passengers per day are using 63 St!"
"Local passengers represent a small portion of the QB ridership."
Small but enough to make a difference. The V train has 10 tph running at 50% capacity. That's 5 full tph of people who are no longer taking the E or F. That's a major reduction in crowding: from roughly 32 trainloads of people squeezed into 30 trains, down to 27 trainloads of people riding considerably more confortably in 30 trains.
Rather than attempt to directly answer the profound ignorance represented in your post, I would direct you to the archives where there is plenty of good discussion about the original purpose of the 63rd Street line and the decision leading to Connector service.
I am well aware of the history of the 63 St line.
The 36 St connector was a cop-out. The 63 St line was built
as part of a grand vision for vastly improved Queens service.
Because of fiscal problems (and reality setting in), none of
it was accomplished except for the 63 St portion and Archer Ave.
The MTA tired of the press calling it "the tunnel to nowhere" so
they had a study to figure out what to do with it. Not surprisingly,
the KLUGE option, being the quickest and cheapest, was taken. If
you were to study the rest of the system, you'd see that putting
in a crotch past the last local station in a group is totally not
the way you'd want to build a railroad.
Now, it's kind of nice that there is another river tube through
which you can send trains down 6 Ave or Bway. Were we at
TPH max on the express track, or was it the 53 St tube? The
claim was always that it was the tube that's the bottleneck. So,
during peak times, peel off some express trains and send them through
63 St. Period. End of service plan.
I love the fantasies you spin.
Yes, there were grand plans for the 63rd Street line. New York City's financial meltdown in the 1970's prevented a lot of projects from being pursued.
I, personally, would have liked to see the 63rd St line utilized for a much longer route, but the capital funds have not been available to do that. If they are ever available, the 63rd St line is amenable to having an additional diversion built off of it.
In the meantime, MTA did the best it could with the construction funds available. They salvaged a lot of useful function with what they did allowing a significant redistribution of ridership on a heavily used corridor.
Now, you most certainly believe that if only you were appointed MTA Chairman, MTA would have accomplished its original plan (because they're all crooks and idiots over there and only you know what you're talking about), and this being a free country, you're entitled to that belief. Maybe you and Stephen Baumann should run against each other and we'll elect the loser (I mean, winner...)
My belief is, your operating on the fringe like that will preclude MTA or anyone else from taking you seriously, should you ever decide to participate in the transit development efforts in NY or elsewhere. That's unfortunate.
I am well aware of the history of the 63 St line. The 36 St connector was a cop-out. The 63 St line was built as part of a grand vision for vastly improved Queens service.
Where was this "grand vision" meant to go in Queens?
Not surprisingly, the KLUGE option, being the quickest and cheapest, was taken.
What were the other options?
The 63rd Street tunnel was to have both a connection to the QB line (and the turnouts for this were installed), a bypass along the LIRR line that would connect to the line south of Forest Hills.
What were the other options?
Returning $1 billion to the federal government for construction of the unused 63rd St tunnel.
There was also some serious discussion of sending it to Archer Av via the Montauk Branch of the LIRR, but Alphonse D'Amato rammed thru some federal legislation forbidding this, in response to concerns from Middle Village residents about 'social undesirables' coming into the neighborhood via subway.
There was also some serious discussion of sending it to Archer Av via the Montauk Branch of the LIRR
Would the stations on the Montauk Branch have been kept open? Would grade crossing elimination have taken place?
Alphonse D'Amato rammed thru some federal legislation forbidding this
Finally a rival to Moses' claim to the title Public Transit Enemy #1!
in response to concerns from Middle Village residents about 'social undesirables' coming into the neighborhood via subway.
They only become "undesirables" because of attitudes like that. Whatever happened to good republican ideals?
Would the stations on the Montauk Branch have been kept open? Would grade crossing elimination have taken place?
I doubt somehow if the Montauk Branch would have went subway or remained at grade. I think it might have gone embankment. The then existing stations probably would have stayed. New stations probably would have been added. I don't know what TA and MTA would have done.
"I doubt somehow if the Montauk Branch would have went subway or remained at grade. I think it might have gone embankment. The then existing stations probably would have stayed. New stations probably would have been added. I don't know what TA and MTA would have done."
Here is what I would have done, on the Montauk Branch, but then you have seen this already.
Grade separation, Nos stops.
SO WHY ISN'T BUILT YET! Sheesh!
: ) Elias
It is still kewl.
The then existing stations probably would have stayed. New stations probably would have been added. I don't know what TA and MTA would have done.
The only station on that line that looked like a station was Richmond Hill. All the others were basically "stops at a grade crossing". Fresh Pond was sort of like a station, with an overpass over the tracks, but it too was just a stop in the ballast and weeds, no platform of any kind. Some didn't even have signs to identify them as stations. The "stations" were pretty well kept secrets. Most people probably didn't even know there were stations along that line.
Closest thing Fresh Pond had to a station house was a type of "box" that was on one side. I assume it was a "shelter".
Closest thing Fresh Pond had to a station house was a type of "box" that was on one side. I assume it was a "shelter".
LOL. YEah that station was pretty creepy. That "shelter" usually had the remnants of bonfires in it.
I used the station a few times. It was really eerie at night to wait for a train there, especially in the winter when it got dark early. I think the train came around 5:30, which was dark in the winter months. There were no station lights there, except for some stray lights from the street above. The wait was basically in total darkness. Then all of a sudden you would see a light in the distance from the tunnel next to the "station" As the train disturbed the darkness and blinded you and with the horn blowing it was like satan himself was coming for you. It was fun though. That was a very fun line to ride if especially if you used the local stations.
I'd take a wild guess itwould be a rush hour only bypass --likely use the Richmond Hill station as it offered some connections..not far to Kew Gardens, etc.Indeed I think the crossings would have to be eliminated...good idea anyway even without subway trains. Two of my grade A cynic opinions: 1- only in New York, dawdle around with such a big deal improvement [haha] when there is no more bady needed trackage on the Queens side, Montauk branch a good idea but will probably never happen lke 2nd Avenue [please!] 2- heaven forbid a white neighborhood should have trains bringing "undesirables" thru even though you'd sure like the service given by it.Doesn't matter that trains run a little distance away with these people you don't want...see many of them getting off to be a nuisance? I'm a white, redneck, blue collar conservative BTW. Then "our kids will get killed"...the Brighton Line has 4 tracks and its rare any kids get killed there....if ever. I got out of NYC for safety sake...so I won't be a hypocrite...but like excesses of environmentalists here in the west...same thinking...can anything be done without the stone walls and lawsuits coming up? More rail lines neede!
DiAmato was a jerk that way. But it was all moot anyway, as the money was not available to accomplish this - esp. after the idiotic Beame Shuffle, which sacrificed $1 billion in federal construction money for the sake of avoiding a nickel fare hike. Avoiding the fare hike helped no one.
(DiAmato was a jerk that way. But it was all moot anyway, as the money was not available to accomplish this - esp. after the idiotic Beame Shuffle, which sacrificed $1 billion in federal construction money for the sake of avoiding a nickel fare hike. Avoiding the fare hike helped no one.)
My understanding is the fight against subway service in Southwest Queens occurred before D'Amato was eleced, with Geraldine Ferraro leading the way.
The amazing this is that I don't think the routing was decided before the MTA built the tunnel. In addition to the Montauk Branch option, there was the super-express (taking two tracks from the LIRR), and using both express tracks in the peak direction while storing the extra trains in a yard.
In retrospect, the MTA should have just torn down the Astoria El and run a new line up from the 63rd Street tunnel to take it's place. You could still have had four trains to Manhattan -- two express via 53rd Street, two local via 59th -- on Queens Blvd, with the N train out of the way.
My understanding is the fight against subway service in Southwest Queens occurred before D'Amato was eleced, with Geraldine Ferraro leading the way.
That's the way I remember it too.
I don't deny the NIMBY element.
With the right marketing (and the right plan) I think the NIMBY element could be neutralized today. It wouldn't be easy, but it could be done.
In retrospect, the MTA should have just torn down the Astoria El and run a new line up from the 63rd Street tunnel to take it's place.
And there may have been less opposition in extending the line to LaGuardia if it was underground.
If you wanted you could make the astoria el go down into the 63st tunnel easily. No need to rebuild. you could buuld the connection with little NIMBYs because you could use the land that is used for the airvents.
In retrospect, the MTA should have just torn down the Astoria El and run a new line up from the 63rd Street tunnel to take it's place. You could still have had four trains to Manhattan -- two express via 53rd Street, two local via 59th -- on Queens Blvd, with the N train out of the way.
The basic problem is that the Queens-Manhattan cordon has capacity for 90 tph and the lines that supply it have capacity for only 80 tph. Also, the cost for 4 miles of new subway would be the same, whether they went to Astoria or extended beyond Jamaica or Flushing. LIC accounted for 75% of Queens' population when the Astoria Line was built. That is no longer the case. Replacing the Astoria line with a subway would be tough to justify. But then the MTA has managed to justify the LIRR to GCT. :-)
Of course, the LIRR serves all of Long Island.
The Astoria line could serve more of Queens than it does now.
Just extend it to LaGuardia, and then keep going on a concrete viaduct on the water side of the Grand Central to Flushing. From there it could run up to the former Flushing Airport in College Point where park and ride lots could be built. Everyone in Northeast Queens has a car or two -- average auto ownership is something like 1.9. Right Ron in Bayside? If they could park and have an express subway ride, it would be a good thing.
You'd have local and express service on the Astoria Line, as with the Flushing line, with the express traveling directly from the airport to Queensboro. You'd have two 63rd Street trains and two 53rd Street trains off Queens Boulevard, and two trains on the Astoria line (like today, but permanently).
A related point concerns the Second Avenue Subway. The orignial MTA Grand Plan had two trains through 63rd Street, one of which would have turned south on Second Avenue to replace the Second Avenue train that headed west on 63rd Street. The MTA plans to build this connection, but only for non-revenue moves?! (Hope they don't cheap out and build the crossover at grade)
If Second Avenue Phase I were to be extended down to a temporary terminal at 42nd Street rather than merely hooked up at 63rd (the way things are going, phase I is all we are likely to get in our lifetimes) then Queens Boulevard riders and Second Avenue riders could take the Second Avenue to far east Midtown, walking two or three blocks east rather than transferring to the Lex.
I'll bet that would help ridership a lot -- both on the 63rd Street line AND on the northern section of the Second Avenue, compared with walking over to the Lex or transferring at 53rd and Lex (the V vs. F issue). It's only two more stations and 20 more blocks. Don't we deserve it? After all, it won't help Brooklyn, the Bronx, or other unpopular places with unpopular people -- but will help Manhattan and Queens.
Larry, that's a very sensible idea. Extend the 2 Ave stubway
so it at least serves Midtown east. A lot of people work between
Lex and 2 Aves below 59 St, many of them are taking the Lex IRT.
This would give 63 St a real reason for existing and take the
load of the Lex both from Upper East Side and Queens residents.
In terms of soils, they could probably make it down to 42 St using
TBM. That's about the point where the rock line starts to diverge.
(Larry, that's a very sensible idea. Extend the 2 Ave stubway
so it at least serves Midtown east. A lot of people work between
Lex and 2 Aves below 59 St, many of them are taking the Lex IRT.
This would give 63 St a real reason for existing and take the
load of the Lex both from Upper East Side and Queens residents.
In terms of soils, they could probably make it down to 42 St using
TBM. That's about the point where the rock line starts to diverge.)
Hey, then write it in to the Second Avenue Subway study on the MTA website as a suggestion. Just don't say you got the idea from me -- I wrote in already, and I work for the company.
You work for the MTA?
To me the biggest ROI comes from extending the V to Alphabet city. So many buses could be eliminated and the V would pick up a more balanced load.
My other suggestion which I mailed in was that every mayor build one stop of the Second Ave per term.
>about 'social undesirables' coming into the neighborhood via subway.
railfans?
">about 'social undesirables' coming into the neighborhood via subway.
railfans?
"
No..... SENATORS!
"Let's face it...the real agenda of the V train service plan is to
cost-justify billions in expenditures (63 St tunnel and the later
connector project) by _forcing_ innocent bystanders (F train riders)
through those useless tubes so the bean counters can say "hey, see,
look how many passengers per day are using 63 St!"
ehh heh,heh,heh....no i dont think so! the V train was made to reduce overcrowding not force people to go to this place and that.unfortunately those idiots on QB rather be in a stupid,senseless rush for nothing and hop on the E than grab a seat and relax,enjoy the ride on the V train. thats how thick headed people are these days.they can be the greatest geniuses in the whole damn world but when they step into subway grounds they're as stupid as the next jerk to commit a crime and giving a rats ass that he did it. hmmm,wow theres a good comparison,cause when people commit a crime that shows how stupid they are and pay the price for it just like the QB people pay the price for riding on a express,jam packed E train instead of enjoying a smooth ride on the V train. that crap about the V be a SLOW,local train is BS.sure its local but its not slow! i consider a slow train a train that runs between each station at only 10 or 15mph when it should be doing 25 or 30mph.THAT's slow,not a train going local.
I can understand where this is coming from.The V line was concieved in the 60'S as the Queens crosstown Superexpress from Springfield blvd on the Archer ave line[does not exsist... yet],across Queens via the LIRR,to the 63rd st tunnel then south to Church ave to Brooklyn. What we got was the ''F'' local with a ''V'' letter code,and in no way does this line look anything like the one we[or our parents]paid for.To me[and Im only speaking for myself]this looks like the T.A. MADE A BOO BOO,and this is the only way they could figure out to get out of this mess they created.[I hope those kids got a good education from that money that was swipped=remember the 63rd street fiosco?]so we got what we paid for[HA!!!!] Give the V a chance,it's here to stay so you might as well get used to it.....
judging from my handle you can tell i love the V Train alot.ive given it the chance it rightfully deserves and i love it alot.those morons on QB have to do the same.its weird,they complain about the V being local and slow yet they dont complain about every other local route in the system,i wonder why?
There were to be TWO lines through the 63rd Street tunnel. A Queens Boulevard-6th Avenue route, and a Queens Bypass-2nd Avenue Route.
You got the line for which you paid, just not the other one.
Maybe TA in all its wisdom (No Comments Please!) decided to build the 63 Street Tunnel before it opened up 2nd Ave. This way it will give the future generation of TA leadership an incentive to build the 2nd Ave subway line.
excuse the bold lettering at the end of my post,nothing i could do about it
Thanks Jeff,
Most forget us "Greenpointers" pay our share of taxes as well.
:-) Sparky
And you're already getting exactly what you've paid for.
I've read a lot of how the "shell" of the South 4th Street stop was built "into the roof" the the Broadway stop on the G.
What exactly is a "shell?" Is it a station or isn't it? Is unused upper level Roosevelt Avenue station on the IND a "shell" or a regular unused station?
And how could something be built into the roof of a station without it being visible from the open station platform simply by looking up? What does it mean for a station to be built "into the roof?"
Please help me with this vague and confusing terminology.
Thanks.
A shell is an uncompleted station. Could be anything resembling a man made cave with no platforms, trackways, or enterances built. Or, just part of a station was completed.
Into the roof means the abandoned station's trackway or floor is the ceiling of the station below. Look here at the Utica Av photos. Notice the ceiling drops down a bit, the trackway for the station shell is right there, it's built into the ceiling.
At Utica Avenue, those lower portions of ceiling are the trackways for the upper station that is a shell? Do I have that right?
What about at 2nd Avenue? Joe says that the higher ceiling there would permit the 2nd Avenue line's Houston Street station to fit there. Does that mean the higher section of ceiling was actuall supposed to be the ceiling for the Houston Street stop? If so, is that ceiling and supporting beams the "shell" of Houston Street station?
IIRC (from 66-70 when I used the station almost daily) and a more informed look/see in September 2001.
There were many extra stairways as orignally built. These connected the platform to the mezzanine which stretched nearly the entire distance from 1st (where I usually entered/exited) to 2nd. It was fenced off. If you walk the platform, the ceiling changes height near the 2nd Ave end in a way which COULD indicate trackway/platform provisions. It is a location 'begging' for a tour, r an FOIA request for the contract drawings
A tour just for that?
No, but as it is close to Chrystie/Grand a concurrent visit to the "proto" 2nd ave trackways flanking the current platforms and a visit to the 'Confucious' site would make a pleasant jaunt all within a decent stroll. And if that's not enough, a bit of E Bway and the trollet space at Essex should round out a perfect Lower East Side trek. With enough warning, I might well come in from Ca for this one.
Where are those proto 2nd Ave trackways??
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/6thave/index.html
In the description of Grand St.
>>space for two tracks which would have been
used by the 2nd Ave. Subway is behind the walls. <<
A station shell consists of rough concrete and steel beams, sort of like a house in the early stages of construction. In the case of S. 4th St. and Fulton St.-Utica Ave., the portion directly above the active line was "roughed in" and left to be finished later when the rest of the station was built.
I have also read about the 2nd ave station (Manhattan) - Sixth Avenue on the Culver Line.
What about the West 4th Street Station Mezzanine, Church Avenue-Culver Line Mezzanine, 15th Street Prospect Park, and the 7th Avenue Station - Culver Mezzanine and the Jay Street Mezzanine.
Were the "dead space" in these stations planned for additional tracks or lines? Any thoughts?
The West 4th Street mezzanine does seem ideal for a station, doesn't it? You can easily see where side platforms and a two track line would fit. I don't know about the others.
By the way, the Church Avenue, 15 St/Prospect Park and Seventh Avenue stations are not Culver Line stations but are original IND stations that were part of the IND Sixth Avenue line. The Culver Line now starts at the elevated Ditmas Avenue station and ends at Coney Island. Before 1954, when the connection opened, the IND ended at Church Avenue.
The W4 lower mezzanine is the only way, aside from the tiny upper mezzanine at the far south end, to transfer between directions.
And its a weird mezzanine because its sandwiched between the 6th and 8th Avenue lines, rather than being above or below both of them, like most other stations' mezzanines. I don't know if the mezzanine was supposed to be a station but it sure looks like a station shell to me.
The mezzanine is down there because PATH gets in the way of a full mezzanine on the upper level. It is weird but it was never planned to be anything but a mezzanine.
Thanks for the clarification of 6th Avenue (IND) and the Culver line old (BMT).
:-)
oh man......lol.
I was waiting for someone to do that. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Rim shot!
A lot of the "shells" as other explained are the rough ins. Most of them are just the length of the "in use" station. Picture a wide "X". The "in use" station may be the "/" part of the X. The proposed station and shell would, if completed, be the other line in the X. But in most "shell" stations, only the intersection of the second line (shell station) of the X may be built. In the case of Roosevelt though, I believe it's a full station with tiles and all that was built.
The Roosevelt Ave. terminal doesn't bisect the active line beneath it; it is parallel and directly above it. That's why the terminal is a full-length station, and on top of that, the trackways extend some 700 feet beyond it. All of that falls within the construction boundaries of the active line.
Oh, I didn't realize that! So the "Winfield Spur" was to turn to a 90 degree angle and wound up totaly in line with the current Roosevelt station.
I'm pretty sure the Winfield spur would have taken a pretty twisty route, because it would have had to go around all those cemetaries in Queens. The Winfield spur was to have gone from Roosevelt Ave. down to Metropolitan Ave., correct?
I'm not sure. I beleive it was to connect with the Myrtle-Central Line, but I don't know where or how.
It would have done some twisting, to be sure.
Does anyone have any photos of the (now abandoned) Woodhaven station on the LIRR Atlantic Avenue line when it was still in use? I see that station every day on the way to Flatbush Avenue and am curious about what it looked like when it was open. The station was closed fairly recently in MTA terms (1976) so there must be a photo around somewhere.
Thanks.
I asked that myself a few months back, but never got to see any photos. I assume if it lasted until 1976 there should be some out there.
I'm a defense lawyer for a major US insurance company. I see this kind of garbage all the time. Calls for tort reform in Albany have never succeeded because the politicians are in bed with the plaintiff's bar. The bottom line is, if you run any kind of business in New York, you will get sued eventually, whether or not the claim has a hint of merit.
I'm looking at an old picture taken some time ago and trying to figure out at which station the pic was taken. The sign in the pic is like this:
-------------------------------------
|-|--A--C--J--M--Z--uptown-and-|
|-|--1--2---------------the bronx---|
|\|/------------------------4--5-----|
-------------------------------------
Any ideas? I can narrow it down to 2 stations but not 1.
Thanks in advance.
its either fulton or boro hall
J at boro hall?
Nope, because then the sign would include the N and R and not have the J or Z.
It has to be Fulton Street.
by the trains stopping there, it has to be Fulton. The J-M-Z only meet the 1-2 there. And actually, pre-9/11, it would be the 2-3, not the 1-2, so it must be fairly recent, too.
This sign is several years old. That's why I'm a bit confused. Could it not be boro hall?
The J and Z don't go the Boro hall, and to the best of my memory, never have. However, I'm only 17, so it could've been before my time.
Actually, the Z was created in 1988 according to this, and I'm pretty sure the 1 train hasn't gone to Brooklyn on a regular basis since then.
the more i think about it, it has to be Fulton. The a/c don't meet those trains at boro hall.
Broadway-Nassau
Broadway-Nassau is the A/C name for the Fulton street station. It's in the same subway complex.
The J has always ended at Broad Street. The Z is just the skip stop version of the J. It too has always ended at Broad Street. The M is the only one to go to Court Street (BMT's version of Boro Hall) and then only during rush hours.
Now the M runs there all day, from 6 AM to 10 PM.
I'll bet the photo of the sign he is looking at is the one being offered on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116359053
This sign has to be very, very recent and it would not suprise me if it was illegally obtained.
....Ohh you mean this sign.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116359053
Well.. I didn't want everyone here to know it was on e-bay. Now the price will go up, up, up and I won't ber able to afford it. Thanks.
"...an old picture taken some time ago..." "Where was this pic taken?" I'd say it's on someone's kitchen table. To say it's old is deceptive. I assume it's a sign intended for Fulton Street.
It has to be Fulton St./B'way Nassau in Lower Manhattan...
Yup. At the north end of the SB 4/5 platform, above the staircase to the underpass.
I don't know why so many people are suggesting Borough Hall. The A/C and J/Z don't stop there and the N/R do. Before 9/11, the 2/3 went to both stations; now the 1/2 go to both stations.
Fulton Street:1,2,4,5,J,M,Z
Broadway Nassau:A,C
guess this one !! ..........lol !!
lol !! lol !!!!!
It's now named for the late Julian Dixon, a Los Angeles representative in Congress, who was a fervent supporter of rail transit. Congress could use more members like him.
thats right! aw the re-name of the station last time i was there !!
Wow! I didn't realize that the LIRR Long Beach Branch went all the way to Los Angeles! It must have something to do with the sinkhole at the 76th Street Station!
Seriously though...nice photo!
thankz !! wow ...lets go transit riding !!......asap .......lol !!
How do LIRR couplers work? I would gess that long pole enters a female connection on the opposing coupler. How can a mechanical force hold on to that? There are no holes in it for locking pins and it smooth metal.
The pole makes a great weapon though. If fired from a cannon, it can act like a tank sabot.
The spike has a notch about 1-2 inches down from the point. Its sort of like what you see in a padlock clasp.
JM accurately describes the locking mechanism. You have stumbled
upon a major weakness of "hook and pin" style couplers, from which
both the LIRR design and the model that is currently being used for
all new car orders in NYCT suffer: They suck in draft. In
buff they are fine as there are large flat surfaces bearing against
each other, but in draft the only thing transmitting the force
is that little hook in the little notch on the prick.
The tried-and-true H2 head is almost indestructible and does not
require the dangerous practice of pre-buffing the couplers in order
to cut them. Unfortunately it is wicked expensive to manufacture
since it involves precisely controlling large castings and then
machining complicated surfaces with high accuracy.
Could you explain "buff" "prebuff" and "draft" please?
I never heard those terms before either, but they were rather easy to figgure out (I think)
Buff would be a compressed state between the couplers, like a european train pushing agains its buffers. On a train with a locomotive you would find this condition in backing, breaking, or with a locomotive downhill from its train.
Draft then would be the opposite, with the train strung out, and with forces applied to the knuckles. It occurs when you are pulling a trian.
On LIRR equipment, given that the coupling agent is internal, a device latching on to a notch in that spike thing, the draft pressure agains the locking device seems to prevent its release,
and so a 'prebuff' backing movement is necessary to relive that pressure and allow an uncupping to take place. Something like using a Kadee track magnet.
On my model railroad, my locomotives run so smoothly that a stop over the magenet is not sufficient to uncouple, and I have installed a 'cutting-key' on my control board. It is a reversing circuit applied with a push-button. I can move my train forward slowly across the magnet, tap this button, and you will not even preceive the hesitation of the engine, but the coupler will release, while the train contiues in a forward motion.
Really neet. Apparently Subway couplers, being built differently than the LIRR ones, do not need slack in order to uncoupple.
Elias
Thanks. Sounds like you put together a clever device on your model RR.
Jeff, the pin & funnel type coupler, to the best of my knowledge was only used on the R-110A at NYCT. I believe that the R-142s and R-143s use either Ohio Brass Form 70 or Dresser RTD-107 or similar type coupler - the type used on the R-44/R-46.
That's correct. The R110 coupler is an N-1, which is a smaller
version of the N-2 used on the "M" series of MTA cars. The OB
coupler is basically a Thomlinson design. Both suffer
from the same hook and pin design shortcomings.
Pull-aparts on H heads are almost impossible short of a catastrophic
defect in the coupler which is generally visible (such as a
cracked casting or defective locking dog spring). Too bad WABCO
didn't really want to make more of them.
Found these 2 nice prints on eBay. The scans are larger than the actual items in both cases. In that case I don't need the originals. I'll just download the scans and print them out. They'd look just as good matted and framed. However, if anyone wants the originals, they're inexpensive.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2114869965
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=888163831
Alan Glick
I recently rode the F train from CI to Manhattan.
After exiting W8th Street in CI, I noticed the steel structures leading from the station, almost as another track was once there?
It seems as if it once connected to the Lower Level of W8th Street.
What is this structure? When was it used (if?)? Where does it go? Why is it still there?
I couldn't find anything about it on this site. (Or maybe I missed it and didn't understand what was on this site.)
I read on the Brighton line history on here that up until 1954, when the IND took over Culver, Brighton locals used the lower level of W8.
Brighton locals used the lower level of W8.
Mostly only when Franklin-Nassaus used the upper level.
Prior to the IND being extended down the Culver line elevated to Coney Island in 1954, the Brighton Line local (outer tracks) extended into the lower level of West 8th St. station. The steelwork for the trackways still exists between West 8th and Ocean Parkway.
-- Ed Sachs
I assume you mean the structure from W8 LL to Ocean Parkway on the Brighton?
It was mostly used for Brighton Locals to share Tracks 5-6 (E-F) with Culver trains on weekends when Franklin-Nassau/Coney Island Expresses ran during the summer. The track connection was severed when the Culver was transferred to the IND in 1954.
The structure is still there because there is no reason to tear it down. I don't know if it will be affected by the CI reconstruction.
6-25-02, New Haven Union Station 5:18PM (my guess), Amtrak Engine 813 (old style pain, Why was there a white blond 20-30 years old in the Amtrak Engine Cab? There was another man (I belive the engineer) maybe 6-30 years older than her (white male, maybe italian, mustache) in the cab. It was I belive on track 2 (platform closest to the waiting hall, track after the platform). I saw it from track 6 (I think). The train was facing toward Boston/Shoreline Express.
It couldn't happen on MTA transverse cabs: not enough time between stations.
Now Amtrak, on the other hand....
The flats, 59th-125th, the terminal, the relay and of course the LAY -up.
Actually you can't use the lay up anymore, they are putting alarms in all the emergency exits so if you leave that way someone will know.
You have a dirty mind (not that there is anything wrong with that).
How do you know if anything "inappropriate" was going on. Maybe she was someone from Amtrak doing an inspection (they all can't be male these days) orother function. Maybe she was his daughter.
6-30 years older? That is quite a range.
(At least this won't generate controversy the way E_Dog likes to).
Well I would guess his age was between 36-48.
Which way was the blonde facing?
Like another engineer. No they wern't doing obscene acts, if they were I would be so close I would be able to identify them out of a photo lineup. I didn't want the get closer because that was a Amtrak-only platform and I don't want trouble (you must have a ticket to get to the platform).
Just wondering.
Maybe the train's headlights we...
-Hank :p
Jealous? Put on a dress and shave your legs and I'll let you ride with me.
Hahahahaha ... what color pumps should I wear? :)
After all, there seems to be numerous AOL'ers with us ... what are they wearing? A black teddy of course. Even the GUYS.
Yeah you and SB Fred going to the Mermaid parade down in CI. Maybe change the subject to the Transvestite cab. Brrrr.
Sorry Bing Bong gets the lift, you stay on the plat.
Heh. You LOVE me. :)
On this board, abuse of a transverse cab would be covering up the railfan window !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I agree - the situation as described doesn't sound like abuse to me!!!
--Mark
LOL. Would you feel better knowing that the TA fired a new T/O in part because he was known to bring his girlfriend into the transverse cab with him.
The first time he did it, he blew 59th st on the express track. His girlfriend immediately exited the cab, and when a TSS showed up, passengers told him of a girl exiting the cab as soon as there was a station overrun.
He got caught a few weeks later with his girlfriend in the transverse cab, had another station overrun, and hit a home signal to boot. He has been gone ever since.
Does anyone know what was going on with the 2 and 5 lines in the Bronx around 2:30 today? I was stuck outside East 180 on a Southbound 2 for about 10 minutes, and when I got off at 180th, there were a lot of people and an empty NB 5 train in the station. Didn't have my tranceiver. What was up?
Around that time there was this really strong thunderstorm passing through the area. Constant lightening and even some hail.
Maybe a tree got struck and fell onto the tracks? Or there could be flooding from all the rain that fell.
I hadn't thought the rain would be a factor. But, since the gates of Heaven actually fell in front of my building and had to be picked up by some angels, you may be right. The rain, my God!
Got hit bad here in Sea Cliff as well. Numerous cloud to ground lightning strikes, fortunately no power outage
It wasn't bad over here in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, all I heard was thunder, no lightning or rain.
youre lucky.here in baychester we had hail winds,and lighting and flash flood warnings
oh, damn
Yeah, that was some storm yesterday. Part of the tree in front of my house got hit by lightening. Luckily, no one was passing under it at the time.
That thunder at times sounded like explosions. It even made the building I work at shake a few times.
expect more of the same today from they said and who knows,it could start within the next couple of hours. it was more or less around now,1:00 PM,that the storm started in upper manhattan,damn from the way it sounded it sounded like every thunder bolt was striking something.
It was a lot of cloud to ground lightening for sure. A few trees were struck also in the Allerton and Pelham Gardens areas.
The sky does look to be clouding up now. If it takes the same path it did yesterday, we're in for it again.
To keep this transit related, the trains appeared to be working around 5pm yesterday in the middle of the storms. I saw a southbound R142 in revenue service leaving the Morris Park station as I drove beneath the el.
was this like a florida type storm with strong electrical jolts ??
>>>>>take cover ....!!!
I have been reading about Co-Op City on a number of previous posts and I know it is located in the upper reaches of the Bronx. Is it a middle or lower rent apartment complex? That I do not know. A bigger mystery for me is that somewhere I read about a Starrett City. I don't remember where I read it, and now I'm wondering if I did read about it or if it is a figment of my imagination. If it does exist will some of you guys tell me something about it. If it doesn't just ignore this strange post.
Starret City is located between Flatlands Ave. and the Belt Parkway along Pennsylvania Ave. (Boy, you have been gone for a long time!)
Me too....last time *I* was there, it was nothing but swamps along Pennsylvania Avenue all the way out to the Belt Parkway!!
I know Fred, if the Sea-B----, don't go there you don't know about it.
I hear there is a proposal at Brooklyn Boro Hall, that the BMT Man is
whispering sweet nutins in Marty's ear to extend the "L" to Starret
City.
;-) Sparky
Remember John S, I haven't been a resident of New York since 1954, and so I am not as up to date on the many changes, and you are right, since the Sea Beach doesn't go there I could care less. Well, not quite. I did ask about Starrett City so I must have been a mite interested. As for BMT Man, I wouldn't put anything past him. If he has any influence with the TA he just might get someone to listen.
The central street of Starrett City is Pennsylvania Avenue. The highest address is 1530.
Now if Pennsylvania Avenue is extended into the landfill on the other side of the highway, they can have a 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
And last year I proposed just the same thing: As a home for the Clintons!
(I'm sure you'll enjoy that, the Clintons living over a garbage dump)
That's a good one!
I love it Pig. A perfect place for that disgusting dynamic duo. Keep up the good work and come up with some more gems.
Fred & Steve
Consider yourself lucky ... you're non residence of the "Empire State"
and don't have to worry about them. Besides, what would they do to
accomodate Monica. Also let's be Politically correct for the 21th
Century, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Brooklyn, NY USA would be on a
Solid Waste Management Disposal Location.
Sea Beach, I was only kidding you about the location. As for the
extension of the "L", that would make sense, but it will not happen.
GAWD forbid the MTA going your way, DID GO MY WAY! EH.
;-) Sparky
Hey Sparky, nice post. Well the Clintons are your problem now since New Yorkers in their infinite wisdom sent that broad to the Senate. I just got the news out here that they are building a new elementary school in Compton, a very poor area. That's great and super for the kids there because schools in that city are really run down. The bummer is that the name of the school will be called William Jefferson Clinton Elementary. I nearly threw up my lunch when I heard that.
Or easier, staring right at you in your face when you right along the Belt Pkwy. at Exit 14.
I couldn't talk Fred in to going to Starett City a few weeks ago because there is no roller coaster there and no place that serves Egg Creams there!
Hinch's on 5th Avenue and one block from the 86th Street exit on the R. They serve great egg creams. No roller coaster though. You have to go to Coney to get one. And it is the best one.
Starrett City is in Brooklyn.
Co-Op City is a middle income housing complex under the Mitchell-Lama program.
It is the largest of its type with 15,372 apartments in 35 Hi-rise buildings and 15 Townhouse clusters.
It is located in the Northeast Bronx on part of the old Freedomland site and is just northeast of the Pelham Bay Park station. It is next to I-95 and the Hutchinson River Parkway.
For web pages on Co-OP City start with:
http://www.geocities.com/casalsk/coopcity/welcome.html
Just north of the garbage dumps along the Belt Parkway.
In the 1970's the sign read, "Brooklyn the way it used to be." I remember Starrett City to be around the Rockaway Ave. (Canarsie Exit) of the Belt Parkway. That is shortly before you enter Queens when you are driving toward Long Island.
The closest subway line is the L at Rockaway Blvd. If you walk to the station from the parkway, you will pass a few good pizza restaurants (and that is what counts).
The exit you are referring to is Rockaway Parkway. Rockaway Av ends just south of Foster Av right at Rockaway Parkway. Starret City is not at the Rock. Pkwy exit of the Belt. Its one exit west, at Pennsylvania Av.
I knew that it was nearby and yes, it is Rockaway Parkway.
One exit EAST.
Thank you American Pig,
I thought I was going to have to play like the Nun, when I went to
grammar school & basic geography and instill the correctness of the
reply with twelve inches of wood across the knuckles.
And don't anyone say OUCH!!!
;-) Sparky
I was afraid that somebody was going to complain that I was only nitpicking. I believe that corrections are a great thing, and if we all weren't afraid to correct one another, we'd all be better off.
But too many here at SubTalk have skins too thin for criticism no matter how useful it may be...
Are you talking about me? Cause if you are I'm surprised, and saddened, wait no, that's not the word. What's the word I'm looking for?
Anyway, I welcome criticism, even if it hurts, so long as it isn't malicious. It improves us all.
Sez you!!!!! ;-)
--Mark
Here is the OFFICIAL INFO on CO-OP City in the Bronx:
http://riverbaycorp.com/index.html
It's at the southern end of Pennsylvania Ave. You could take the L to Rockaway Pkwy, and then take the B-82 heading to Starrett from there. It's a short ride from Rockaway Pkwy.
You could also take the IRT New Lots line to Pennsylvania Ave and then take the B20 south to Wortman Ave/Pennsylvania and walk two blocks.
Thank all you guys for giving me the info I needed on Co-Op City which I knew existed but little else, and Starrett City which for a while I was beginning to believe was a figment of my imagination. We are a great group on Subtalk and kuddos to you for keeping this Californian up to date about his native city.
Aww c'mon ... the instructions you were given are not the right ones ... take the Sea Beach Local to Kings Highway and the B-82 bus from there! It's not worth visiting if you don't originate the bus ride from the Sea Beach Line ;-)
--Mark
I offered the trip in reverse to him, after leaving Starrett City then
onto the Sea Beach. The choice is his.
;-) Sparky
You could also take the IRT New Lots line to Pennsylvania Ave and then take the B20 south to Wortman Ave/Pennsylvania and walk two blocks.
That doesn't include the (N) Train - how about something REALLY crazy like: (N) Train to DeKalb, (M) Train to Fresh Pond Rd, B20 bus, then walk two blocks - that way the best 2 trains on the subway are included!
Oh Sir James,
Sounds good, dependent on the day he would do same. Weekday O.K.,
by October, Willy B GOs should be complete. Also on the B-20,
only every 2nd Bus runs the full line from Fresh Pond every 24
minutes, mid-day. On 12s from Broadway Junction, same as B-83.
B-82 runs 8s midday.
;-) Sparky
Could you not instead take the 1 to Van Sicklen, board the B83 and not walk two blocks?
American Pig,
The station on the (1) is Pennsylvania Avenue for either the B-20
a/o B-83. Why walk two blocks to the B-20 from Van Sicklen &
then later at Starrett City? B-83 runs the length of Pennsylvania
Avenue. [re: Brooklyn Bus Map, February 2002] It was to warm to
walk Wednesday, after doing chores, so I rode and obtained map.
;-) Sparky
This response should have been to Hart Bus. He was the one who said to take the B20, and I said the B83.
Also, the B83 runs along Van Sicklen from New Lots to Vandalia. I was wrong about getting off at Van Sicklen, one should get off at Pennsylvania as you said.
You don't know about Starrett City??????????????? It's in Brooklyn, Starret City is a small section with nothing but Nice Appartment Buildings, the B82 & B83 Lines go right in the Center of the Complex, and the last stop is at Seaview Ave. at the end of the complex, and the Command Bus goes over there, they have their own Mall right in the center with 2 schools I believe, I go there all the time to get my Haircut, sorry no Trains go over there.
AE--Thanks! I will have to see for myself when I visit New York in October.
Kool!
Fred,
When your in town October, after Branford on Sunday, the 13th,
we can venture over to Starret City that week. Come into Broadway
Junction via the A,C,J,L and the B-83 to Starrett City. Leave via
the B-82 Flatlands Ave/Kings Highway and the Sea Beach we will find.
;-) Sparky
Hey, your on. I plan on staying about five or six days in October so I can railfan with as many Subtalkers as I can. Let's keep in touch.
Fred,
Looking forward to it. Just have to survive Sunday the 13th at
Branford with the SubTalkers. Most logistically I'll be the
"Dispatcher for the Day". We will see how it pans out.
;-) Sparky
Fred ...
Get off the Sea Beach at Kings Highway and take the B-82 bus eastbound on Kings Highway to its end and you'll be right in it.
Starrett City at Spring Creek is the largest federally assisted, privately owned residential development in the United States. With approximately 5,881 units, Starrett City is home to more than 20,000 residents.
--Mark
Thanks Mark. I already got Sparky lined up for a trip there. I think that now that it does not just exist in my mind I will actually try to get a few of the guys to take a jaunt into Starrett City---as ridiculous as it may sound to others. Oh, what the hell. We Subtalkers are a strange lot anyway. Right?
Fred, as strange as it sounds, I'm a lifelong resident of Brooklyn
and that's area of Brooklyn, I haven't visited yet!!! Need I say
more. And for the purist on line, Mrs. Sparky worked at 350 5th Ave,
Manhattan for 18 years and never reached the top. We all have our
quirks. >G<
;-) Sparky
Hey Sparky--let Lucille reach the top of 350 Fifth vicariously by renting or watching "Sleepless in Seattle" The last scene takes place at the top of her former work location.
You didn't miss much. I think of any part of Brooklyn not to visit, that should be the one.
It's not dangerous, it's just boring. It's a high-rise complex of look alike buildings completed in 1976. And it DOESN't take advantage of the waterfront on the Fresh Creek Basin.
Starrett City is in Bklyn. The B82,83 and Command's BM1,2,BQM1, and B103(upon request, rush hours) runs there.
Take the A,C,J,L trains to Bway Jct and transfer to the B83. Take the B83 to the end. Or continue on the L to Rock Pkwy and transfer to the B82 and take that to the end.
Take the 3 to Pennsylvania Ave and transfer to the B83 downstairs.
Starrett City is in Bklyn. The B82,83 and Command's BM1,2,BQM1, and B103(upon request, rush hours) runs (sic) there.
Correction: The BM1 goes to Bergen Beach and Mill Basin, it does not go to Starrett City.
Sub Bus,
>>> "Take the 3 to Pennsylvania Ave and transfer to the B83 downstairs. <<<
Correction, it's the (1) to Penna. Ave according to The Map, June 2002
;-)Sparky
I think by the time SBF gets to NYC, the 3 will be ruunning to New Lots again............
I been hearing rumblings of big changes come 8th September with the
new RT pick. We'll see what's running in October where! >O.K.<
;-) Sparky
The did a great overhaul on the R-32's that run on the C Line, the Air Condition was great! especially on a hot day like today, they need to install the R-32 A/C units on the R-44's.
Great...stretch 18 tons (216,000 BTU) of air conditioning over cars that need 20 (240,000 BTU)...
David
Once again, Acela, there is a reality gap in what you think you know vs what you actually know on this subject. Let me try to explain what you do not know.
Pitkin has R-32 Phase I cars only. Those would be the R-32s that operate on the C line. They have 2 9-ton Thermoking units per car.
R-44s have 2 10-ton Stone Safety units per car.
Hence, while the R-44 has approximately 25% more interior volume than does the R-32. At the same time, the R-44 has only 11% more HVAC capacity than the R-32s.
Hmmmmmm - and now you want to reduce the HVAC capacity of the R-44s by that same 11%. Acela, I think you are on to something.....
New Yorkers are such wimps. Philadelphians braved the "Almond Joys" right up till 1995. Hot as a broiler, esp. at rush hour; made a racket loud enough to kill your hearing forever; and the suspension was just shot enough to compare favorably to a B ticket at Disneyland.
Was the tonnage of these packaged units different amounts pre-GOH?
Who was the manufacturer for the packaged units on the R-44 pre-GOH?
Thanks.
1. Pre-GOH, the R-32 did not have air conditioning. The R-44 had 20 tons of AC (two 10-ton units), just as today.
2. Safety (before Stone bought it).
David
Nothing before the last 200 R40s came with A/C. Wasn't there some propulsion problems on the cars that were retrofitted with A/C as in not powerful enough with the A/Cs installed?
Not that I recall. of course, at the same time, the TA did go to 115 HP traction motors on all GOH car so there might be some basis for what you say.
10 R-38s also had A/C. There were experiments with R-17s prior
to that which were deemed a failure. The reason was not propulsion
(the AC units add only a few thousand pounds) but the insufficient
capacity of the system. It could not keep the car cool with the
constant door opening (and window opening too). The TA insisted
that it was impossible to air condition a subway car, but the
ultimate success of the K car HVAC led them to change their position.
There were experiments with R-17s prior to that which were deemed a failure. The reason was not propulsion (the AC units add only a few thousand pounds) but the insufficient capacity of the system. It could not keep the car cool with the constant door opening (and window opening too). The TA insisted that it was impossible to air condition a subway car, but the ultimate success of the K car HVAC led them to change their position.
One of my college classmates regularly rode that Pelham line train and told a different story. He said that the air conditioning worked. The K cars were successfully operating before the R17 experiment, so I have reasons to believe his observations.
My guess is that the TA did not want to spend the extra money powering the AC, not the lack of the AC's cooling power.
10 R-38s also had A/C.
The TA would have tried the same ploy with those 10 R38's. However, the Times ran an article extolling those cars' virtues by pointing out that people would wait for that train. The TA still ordered the R40's without AC.
It was Lindsay administration's intervention that forced the TA's hand. My guess is that the TA would still be buying cars without AC, were it not for such political interference.
1. The air-conditioned R-17s (6800-6809) entered service during 1956 and the units were replaced with more powerful ones a year later; the units were replaced with Axiflo fans circa 1962. The "K" cars were from 1958. [Incidentally, one R-15 car (6239, the one that's in the Transit Museum now) was retrofitted with air conditioning in 1955. I don't know how long the units were in the car, but they don't seem to be there now.]
2. The 10 air-conditioned R-38s entered service in the summer of 1967 (and not all at once). By that time, the R-40 order had already been placed (remember, a pair of R-40 carbodies was delivered in time to help plug the November 1967 bond issue, but the cars weren't ready, so they went back to St. Louis Car for finishing). While Mr. Bauman's supposition may be correct (and I'm not saying he's wrong), the information he provides doesn't support it.
David
Didn't the 10 R38s only have AC motors?
With the 10 R-38s that came in with AC as original equipment in 1967, the "AC" stood for Air Conditioning. The propulsion system was DC (Direct Current), just like the rest of the R-38s and just like every NYC subway car was built with (except, of course, the non-motorized trailers) until the R-110A and R-110B experimentals.
David
I think I've taken R38s with AC motors. They sound different and have red stickers under the number plate. And wouldn't a GOH have made all R38s alike?
Yeah, that's the confusion AC=Alternating Current or Air Conditioning
There were 10 R38s (I'm sure David has the car #s) that came
with air conditioning (AC) back in the mid 60s. The rest of that
fleet was fan-cooled. During the GOH by GE in the late 1980s,
those 10 oddball R38s became identical to the rest of the fleet
and received the new AC units.
At a later time, a (different) 10 car set of R-38s was given
an experimental AC traction package. I also recall an AC traction
test on a set of R-46 cars before they got GOHd.
Don't forget the STARS R-44s -- the federal government paid to have a few R-44s rebuilt in the mid-1980s as a test of, among other things, AC propulsion. I remember that the train was being tested on the Sea Beach middle and took a mile to stop...
As for the original air-conditioned R-38s, they were the last 10: 4140-4149. They still have the indentations on the roof (like the R-40s have).
Want more confusion? Before the cars were GOHd, some of the 4140-4149 group got AC-powered air conditioning as a test! AC-powered air-conditioning blowers are now becoming standard (as retrofits) in the NYC subway.
David
have any more info on AC power R-46s?
There are few nicer sensations than stepping onto a frosty cold R-32 after a long wait on a sweltering platform!
>>they need to install the R-32 A/C units on the R-44's.<<
Why would you want the TA want to spend thousands of dollars to change working A/C units on R-44's when the current ones work OK ? Or maybe an adjustment in the thermostat would be necessary.
Bill "Newkirk"
the R-44s are better than the R-46 which have the worst HVAC system in revenue service on the MTA. They are never really cool and mucky humid and luke warm. Also the air ducts in R-46s have been scented with the smell of 40% urine, 40% fungus, 20% armpit and a dash of feces.
"Also the air ducts in R-46s have been scented with the smell of 40% urine, 40% fungus, 20% armpit and a dash of feces."
I've been riding the R-46s regularly for the past 2 weeks. You are to be commended on your sense of smell. Your ability to seperate the smell into it's basic component odors is quite a talent. You must spend a lot of time around them.
Maybe the TA can create a profit center bottling "Eau de 46" and sell it. I'm still looking for something to keep Bambi away from the hostas, and I'm fresh out of wolf whiz. :)
How about "scratch and sniff" subway car photos in Railfan magazines. I think "Hustler" tried it a few years ago (not train pictures, of course). I'm sure the 'technology' has improved since that venture.
You mean to tell me all those neat NYS seals on the walls of those subway cars AREN'T scratch'n'sniff? I always thought that just like the "official seal" there's an "official smell" ... dang! But yeah, I think we're onto a money-raiser here. :)
I always thought the official smell was that old familiar R-1/9 aroma of journal grease.:-)
Nah ... "Warren Andersen" (former Senate Majority leader with the green jacket) was declared the official FOSSIL ... and before "urinetown" (see Broadway Theatre plays) THAT was the "official smell of New York" ... the BLUE SMOKE was NEVER "official" but I'd delight in leaving behind my share of it to remind folks of how nice the air conditioned cars were. :)
I can still experience that "subway smell" by taking a whiff inside my IND sign box. Even my bulkhead signs still have a hint of it.
Any time I feel nostalgic, I bring the litter box inside. :)
Eeeeewwwwwwww!!:-)
Well it *IS* the official "smell of New York" ... :)
You learn the yellow pool on the platform is urine.
I know how **HT CR*P BO*LS FEC*S smell because there was a R-46 a caught in 1998. All the people were to one side of the car. The other half of the car had some newspapers on the floor, when I looked under (from a distance of 7 feet) the back2back seat I saw some really smelly paste like (I didn't touch it) brown sasuage.
The armpits you get on a really hot day on the #4 train after people boarded GCS, before the A/C was installed in the station.
I had the opportunity to pass through the new Northwest Airlines terminal at Detroit Metro Airport today (it opened Feb 22). The linear terminal has a people mover system "ExpressTram" that is in a mezzanine level inside the terminal -- open to view of the terminal's interior. There are two trains, which start their runs at either end in unison on a single track, then meet at the center of the terminal where there is a "passing siding" at the central station. Down on the main floor, large electronic signs show the trams' locations and time to the terminal. Escallators and elevators bring passengers to/from the Tram mezzanine. Operation is automatic (like Orlando, Atlanta, etc.), with automated announcements. The Trams run on rubber tires in guideways.
I didn't have my camera, but the New Detroit Terminal Web site has a good image. Here's another view.
Very nice. What kind of mass transit option connects to this tram?
What kind of mass transit option connects to this tram?
I don't think Detroit has any mass transit beyond the not-very-useful People Mover or whatever it's called. The People Mover is strictly in the downtown area, it doesn't run out to DTW.
So we're talking about a bus.
Possibly bus service, but nothing else. In the Motor City, "mass transit" is a dirty word.
Nice looking terminal, though. Almost like having an el inside a building!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Is there going to be a tour to the Coney Island shops anytime soon? I know they used to hold them every now and then. Also, is there a nostalgia train again soon? Maybe I'll be around for this one, I was out of town for the Memorial Day trip.
>>. Also, is there a nostalgia train again soon?<<
The Nostalgia Special runs on Sunday July 14th, August 11th and August 25th. For more imformation, call....(718)694-5139
Bill "Newkirk"
You'll have to excuse me is some of these questions seem really really stupid, however, I am planning a trip up to NY tommorow, Thursday, and would like to ride the Subway a bit, I have looked over the NYCsubway FAQ area, and will kinda follow something close to the suggestions there, time permitting. Right now I am looking at catching an SI Ferry across to Manhatten, possibly after catching a SIRT from Tottenville, first question, is there anywhere to park a car all day near any of the SIRT stations, or should I just go to St George?
I guess once in the city i'll go looking for an MTA NYC subway map, to supplant my printed out maps from here and the MTA website. Second Question, can I get those maps in downtown somewhere? Do I have to go up to Grand Central to get a subway map? Aftetr that I work my way to a Q or Q diamond train, ride that to Prospect, grab a Franklin Shuttle to the A-C line and now for the third question, how does the fare control work here, do you get that Metrocard like pass, or is there a staircase inside the fare control area? I'll proably just get an all day pass, so no big deal, but I was wondering what hoops you have to jump through. From there I really don't know where to go, possibly back to fulton, grab a JMZ over the Williamsburg bridge, and if its an M, then the L is where I'll end up, if it's a J or Z, it's E to F to roosevelt island, to the tram to the 456 at 59th street. I suppose I should ask another question, do the bridges that the subway cross afford a good view or am I better off just catching a tube train? Are you stuck in the middle, with the road deck on both sides, or is it like PATCO where you are the edge of the bridge?
I really have no idea how long this will take, and depending on what time I get there and how long this takes, it may be time to ferry fan my way home, or maybe time to wander around the subway more, anyone have any suggestions for a good route this time of year? I like to think that I can take the heat of an non A/C car.
A few More random questions:
1)Where can I catch an R40 slant? Are they on the L still? I have seen pictures (a few years old) of them with Q window circles in Roosevelt Island.
Are the Rosters for the routes in the Subway FAQ still accurate? I see that they are from 1998, but seem to remember seeing pretty much the same equipment on other trips to New York.
Well I think that's it,
Thanks in advance
I'm not familiar with the Staten Island area so I'll defer that to the experts.
As for your second question, you can pick up a NYC subway map at any NYC station free of charge, provided they are available.
Fare Control in NYC basically is once you swipe your metrocard, you're in until you exit the turnstiles. You cannot use a fun pass metrocard at the same station or same bus line within 18 minutes, but you could technically swipe in at one station, walk to the next one, and swipe in again in under 18 minutes.
Your best chance to catch the R40 slant is on the Q diamond train. You might see some on the N as well, but the Q diamond is almost (correct me if I'm wrong) completely slants.
As for the rosters, without reviewing it, the newer R142 and R142As on the IRT and the R143 are not posted. You can find R142s on the 2 (most of the fleet) and a few select R142s on the 5. All of the R142As are currently on the 6, and just about every one is a R142A. the R143 is on the L, but I believe there are only 3-4 operating train sets, so it might be a wait, but no more than half an hour I bet.
As for the "L" line & R-143s, there are abundant now. We just did
that line yesterday, 11 subtalkers and there were many coming off
line at Rockaway Parkway last evening. There are no slants left on
the "L" and the majority of the other sets are R-42s, with a sprinkle
of R-40ms.
To transfer from the Franklin Shuttle to the "C", it is all within
fare control. That's the cream de resistance of the system,
the newest of the old. >GAWD< [I'm hanging around with BMT Man
too ... too ... much.]
As for your trip on the Roosevelt Island tram, last I spoke to a
regular rail tripper, they didn't accept Metro Card, but subway
tokens, were O.K. If I'm wrong correct me.
Enjoy your day in New York.
:-) Sparky
I think we saw one L R-40 train yesterday, but I may be wrong.
The diamond-Q is almost exclusively R-40, and more than half of the N fleet is R-40 (the remainder is R-32, R-68, and R-68A).
Thanks, I got an Eyeful of the R142s on my last trip with two other friends, at brooklyn bridge, a my one friend walked right onto a 6 train, leaving my other friend and me on the platform screaming for him to get off at Grand Central, we grabbed the next 5 north, and sailed right past him since he had not heard us scream grand central, and instead got off at the next station, Canal St. We searched for him on the 4,5,6 and Times Square Shuttle for well over 3 hrs, until it was our time to view the WTC, fortunately he had the good sense to go to the WTC site at our time, we found him, and everything (kinda) worked out.
Tottenville has a very small parking area. Many of the other stations don't have any parking and are located on residential streets with parking restrictions.
Judging by overheard conversations I know some people do commute on SIR from New Jersey, so they gotta be parking somewhere.
I don't think there any parking restrictions. Staten Island has no alternate side parking, and no parking would only be done in an area if the street is too narrow or if it's dangerous for some reason.
Nevertheless, I don't know FOR SURE.
Well, I never noticed any parked on the streets that cross under/over the stations I rode to, so I assumed there were restrictions. I know, bad idea.
I'm sure that parking is always restricted on an over/underpass for obvious reasons.
Parking in Tottenville is fine, there's plenty to go around. Just if you don't know, the station is located between Arthur Kill Road and Ellis Street, entrances are on Main and Bentley Streets. The Bentley Street exit is only on the AKR side, AKR being a block away.
Back in the old days, the Franklin shuttle transfer was outdoors, but no longer. The Franklin Avenue shuttle was closed for major renovations 7/1997-10/1998 and now has direct transfers. The only transfers that require you to leave the system are transfers indicated by broken lines, which are at Lexington/59 (4/5/6/N/R/W) to Lexington/63 (F) and Court Square (E/G/V) to Courthouse Square (7).
If you're going to be using the unlimited card, it doesn't matter, but if you use pay-per ride, you get ONE transfer to be used within two hours upon paying. You do not need an exit swipe. Your transfer will be used to give you free access to the subway downtown from the SIR (the ferry is free for all!).
The Manhattan Bridge has tracks on both sides, but both directions are on one side (one set is closed), you still have to look through the trusswork, which isn't a big deal, and an occasional passing train if you're going Manhattan-bound. Luckily, the currently open side, is the Brooklyn Bridge/downtown side.
The Williamsburg Bridge is in the middle, and AFAIK, there is stuff in the way.
The Broadway Bridge (1) is an upper level, and the Rockaway Bridges are rail-only and have SPECTACULAR views.
The only non-A/C cars are the R-33 single which run only on the 7 and are the third car from the Queens end. There's also a set of unairconditioned R-32s (10), but AFAIK they don't run in the summer.
For a one day trip, it's not possible to do all the things you mention.
A nice round trip would be to pick up the E someplace in Manhattan then take the J back, but this'll probably be two hours at least. You'll get a feel for what the IND looks like, then get a grand and glorious ride on an old fashioned el.
My favorite ride, tho', is the West End-Myrtle run, presently the M train, or a combination of the M/W.
The thing about subway runs is that once you've seen one station on a given line, you've essentially seen them them all. You see more on the els, tho' what you mostly see are run-down neighborhoods (West End and Myrtle excepted).
It takes years, tho', to become really familiar with the system, and what lies around and along their ROWs. It's easier to do this now, with an unlimited Metro Pass.
Today we take a dump.
Believe it or not, I have had numerous requests to do a piece dealing with toilets on the engines. And people think my values and ideals were are all low? At least it is refreshing to know I’m not alone down here in the gutter. But contrary to what you are thinking or hoping, this will not be a piece about toilets or restroom related thoughts. Actually, we are going to look at rotary dump unit coal trains.
In the travels of my far-flung and adventurous career, I have had the opportunity to observe the dumping of coal trains at a couple of different locations. While these locations varied in their operations they still reached the common denominator, the rapid and efficient discharge of coal from rail cars.
Prior to the development of the rotary dump car, most coal was dumped through the chutes at the bottom of coal hoppers. The doors on these chutes were unlatched manually and coal poured forth. The operation usually had loaded coal hoppers unloaded in of two common methods. Loaded hoppers were pulled up in cuts onto a type of bridge with openings between the rails. This structure was elevated so the coal, when dumped dropped a ways into piles below. Front end loaders or scrapers would shove the coal towards a transport system that scooped up the coal feeding it onto conveyors that transferred the coal to large stockpile throughout the coal yards within such facilities as steel mills and power plants. The cars might also be spotted in a small house that had an opening within the gauge of the rail and again, the doors on the cutes manually opened discharging the load onto a floor below with a conveyor system transporting the coal elsewhere on the facility grounds.
Bottom discharge was the primary method of unloading coal hoppers. It was slow and labor intensive and several employees were needed to dump a cut of cars if it was to be performed with any kind of speed. I was also not very healthy to those employees required to unlatch the doors on the bottom of the chutes. There was a great deal of exposure to coal dust, which over a period of time can lead to pulmonary problems like black lung disease.
In the ever continuing world of research and development (R&D), work was underway to develop a system of rapidly and efficiently unloading coal. The quicker a car could be unloaded, the faster they could be returned to the railroads. This would generate savings in detention time fees paid to railroads by industries. The faster cars could be returned, the less detention time they had to pay. A faster system would also benefit the railroads. The quicker empties were released to them from the industries the quicker they could be moved back to the mines for reloading. The more often the mines could reload the hoppers the more revenue could be generated from the same equipment. This greatly improved car utilization. Money could be saved as the rail industry did not have to invest in additional equipment. It was the classic win-win situation for both shippers and railroads.
My first exposure to rotary dump cars actually happened years before I worked on the railroad. In fact my introduction to rotary dump cars came while I was kid still in grammar school. I had an uncle who worked at Thrall Car Manufacturing Company as a Supervisor. He brought pictures and printed materials home from work and would bring them to family functions and explain how they would affect and eventually improve rail operations. As a kid who loved trains and anything related to them, I ate this kind of information up like a dog goes after a Milk Bone. Having three dogs that scarf these things down like there is no tomorrow trust me, I really went for this kind of information. I didn’t understand much of the reading material but I understood the pictures and some of what was explained to me.
My uncle explained the concept of the rotary dump car and how it would work. He told me of the intent of not having to uncouple the train while it was being unloaded. He explained this as being the wave of the future. This wave, over a period of time would save the rail industry and those operations that buy and use coal millions of dollars. He used the phrase "return on investment." As a kid of eight, I had no real understanding of what this phrase meant in the summer of 1965, but it sure sounded impressive. I would later learn it was more than impressive, it was vital and essential in to stay in business and become more successful.
Some months later, I witnessed my first unit coal train equipped with rotary dump cars. I was getting out of school one afternoon when it occurred. The grade school I went to was about half a block north of the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern’s Gary to East Joliet main line. It was common and certainly not unusual to see various kinds of trains on this line but this day was a first. Aside from the fact that it was a train, something was different about it as it approached. Right off the bat, I noticed the engines sounded different. The whistle also sounded different. I was very accustomed to the familiar drone of either blower equipped EMD or the metallic chug of Baldwin prime movers. (I had no idea of this information at that time but since learned). The whistle was also different, not the familiar honker style of most EJ&E engines. This one had a musical sound. As the engines rolled through the crossing, I saw the first difference in this train, five Gulf, Mobile & Ohio locomotives as opposed to EJ&E center cab units.
Then coming up behind them was really something completely different, rotary dump hoppers. Here they came about a hundred or so of them wearing red paint with one end of each car painted black, just like in the photos my uncle had shown me some months previous. Although those photos were black & white, I could see most of the car was one color and one end another, much darker color. Adorned on the side was the name "Commonwealth Edison" Next to the name was ComEd’s trademark of that era, "Little Bill." Little Bill was a light bulb with arms, legs and a little beak. He was featured in TV commercials singing and dancing about how reasonable ComEd’s rates were for the power they produced. ComEd and their cartoon spokesmodel Little Bill urged consumers to eagerly consume electricity. At the end of each spot, Little Bill would say "CHEAP CHEAP" to drive home the low rate point. Of course anybody served by them today would certainly dispute that claim, but that is another story.
I walked up closer towards the tracks to get a better look. The train was moving slowly enough that I could read all the markings on the side, the CWEX reporting marks and at the bottom of each car the familiar oval symbol with the words "Thrall Car Manufacturing Company." These were them, the very cars I saw in the photos Uncle Harold had shown me, right here up close and in person. I was excited as I had a family connection to these cars. Most of my friends thought I was nuts as I made a big deal of this. Wonder what they would think now? At that point in my life this was huge. Somebody in my family was involved in what would become railroad revolution. Although I didn’t appreciate the fact this actually was a revolution at the time, I just knew it was very important.
These trains became regular as rain. I would see them at least three to four times per week. Little did I know that years ago this revolution would forever change the industry leading to tremendous growth. And again, little did I know that I would eventually operate trains of CWEX rotary dump hoppers on this very rail line to that very same power plant I saw this train heading to and from.
As the rotary dump cars developed and evolved, there were various designs and names for them. In today’s world we have hoppers, high side gondolas and bathtub gons. There are variations in each design. The most readily visible spotting feature is on the bathtub gons. They have what resembles a bathtub at the bottom of the car hence the name. This bathtub hangs below the car and increases the total capacity of the car.
R&D continued on the rotary dump cars continuing their evolution. A major change to rotary dump cars was the transition from the use of steel to aluminum for car bodies. Aluminum while very strong is lighter than steel. Reducing the tare (light) weight of the car allows for more coal to be loaded into it. For example, if the tare weight of the car was 31 tons and its load limit was 131 tons, this meant 100 tons of coal could be loaded into that car. By using aluminum for the car body and reducing the overall weight of the car to say 26 tons, that same car could now carry 105 tons of coal. More coal in the same car benefiting shippers and the railroads. The same train of say one hundred cars could now carry a total of 500 hundred more tons of coal. This was like almost four more cars of coal without increasing the length of the train and requiring more equipment.
Another advantage to aluminum is wear and tear. Aluminum doesn’t rust. It also doesn’t react with the sulfur and other properties in coal creating corrosion to the car bodies like with steel cars. There are some initial disadvantages including higher initial costs. However, these costs are quickly recovered shortly after the cars are placed into service as they can carry a greater load. Also, aluminum cannot be welded like steel if repairs are needed. Mechanical employees had to be trained and qualified on repairing aluminum bodies. Again, this problem and its associated costs have been addressed.
Another change that evolved was higher axle loadings. As the industry moved from the standard 263,000 LB loaded car to the 286,000 LB loaded car, even more coal could be carried in the rotary dump car. Once again, more coal in fewer cars, another win-win situation.
Now we move to 1985. Having recently been laid off from the MoPac, I went to work for the South Shore. In my MoPac days I pulled around more than a few unit coal trains comprised of rotary dump cars for NIPSCO, the Northern Indiana Public Service Company. These trains were forwarded through connections to the Chicago, South Shore & South Bend. The South Shore then delivered these trains to a couple of NIPSCO generating stations. I got to see some of the operations at the two plants, Baillytown and Michigan City. I did not get a chance to see their rotary dumping operations up close though, just from a distance. However, another on line customer also had coal dumping operations, Bethlehem Steel. We took loaded unit coal trains interchanged to us from Norfolk Southern and Chessie System and delivered them to Bethlehem.
We would deliver the loads into the coal yard receiving tracks and pull empties from the empty yard behind the dumper house. On occasion we would have to wait to pull empties as mill crews were still in the process of dumping a train. One evening in particular, I was able to talk my way into the dumper operator’s control room. I got the opportunity to observe Bethlehem’s rotary dump operations up close and personal.
The control room the dumper operator works in is clean and climate controlled. No coal dust in here. It is also insulated for sound so there is no excessive noise within the room negating the need for hearing protection to be worn. The control room generally sits above the cars for a clear, down on view of the entire operation. Even with this view, there are a several cameras connected to monitors in the control room to assist the operator.
Being that most of the hoppers coming into the mill were not of the rotary dump design, these unit trains could not be dumped without uncoupling. Standard rigid drawbar equipped cars have bad things happen to them if they are rotated while still coupled. I have witnessed that occurrence and will elaborate more on that in a bit. What they did at Bethlehem was spot two cars at a time in the dumper and then uncouple them from the rest of the train. Hydraulically operated wheel clamps would come up and lock against the wheels on the cars to prevent them from rolling. Then large arms would clamp onto each car to hold them to the rail. Now they were ready to dump. The dumper operator would then begin the dumping process. The track structure the cars were sitting upon began to slowly rotate turning the cars with them. As the cars turned to the proper angle, the coal began to pour out onto the floor below. The cars would be turned completely upside down. The cars would be given a shake or two to assure all the coal came out and then rotated back to the normal upright position. The arms and wheel chocks would then be removed. The rest of the train would couple back onto them and shove the empties out the north end of the dump.
The empties would then be cut loose and allowed to roll free into the empty yard. The empty yard was about six or eight tracks set up akin to a hump yard. There was a bowl yard below the dumper building which itself, was slightly elevated. However, the switches in the empty yard were operated manually and there were no retarders to slow the movement of the cars into each track. The cars were only shoved fast enough to get them rolling. The grade and gravity took over pulling them into the tracks below the dumper. When a track was full, a switch would be lined and cars would roll into the next one. On occasion when there were a variety of cars being dumped like say a cut of Conrail hoppers that had been doubled to a cut of Chessie System hoppers, they would be separated in the empty yard. This eliminated excess switching by the South Shore and Conrail crews that pulled the empties.
At the east end of each track in the empty yard the track elevated slightly and there were what are known as inert retarders several car lengths from the end of each track. These retarders would squeeze up against the flanges on the wheels of each car passing through it to slow them enough assist in bringing them to a stop. This was not a controlled movement as the retarders were not operated either manually or by a computer. At the very end of each track was a large pile of coal and ballast to act as a bumper in case cars were still rolling a bit too fast. These piles would stop the cars and prevent them from rolling out of the track and into Lake Michigan which lay right beyond the empty yard.
In theory and for the most part in actuality, this system worked very well. Then along came the occasional exception to prove the rule. One day a South Shore crew was gathering empties to pull from the yard. South Shore Car Inspectors would come in first to inspect and work the empties. Any cars bad ordered or due to be light weighed would be switched out by Shore crews to be handled either to Shops Yard in Michigan City for repair or to Burnham Yard in its namesake city to be weighed and stenciled.
This crew in question had to couple some of the cars in each track as not all the couplings made automatically. There were also a few gaps in the tracks as some cars rolled to a stop before coupling up to other cars already there which is not uncommon. The crew was attempting to make a long distance connection; that is try to make the coupling by feel without having a crew member right there at the coupling. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn’t. The Engineer had been instructed to shove them back easy and feel for the coupling. Usually you get a bump in the cab when you make contact. Apparently this guy didn’t feel the bump. He kept shoving and shoving. Finally the Conductor told him to stop and stretch them ahead. He pulled the entire cut out of the track only they still didn’t have the last few cars, and for good reason.
When this guy kept shoving after he didn’t fell the bump, or so he told company officials, he did more than not make the coupling. He shoved the last few cars not just off the end of the track, but over the pile of ballast and waste coal depositing two of them right into part of the Great Lakes system. The cars went over the edge so to speak, landing in the waters below. They were totally and completely in Lake Michigan. A third car was hanging over the edge ready to drop in but somehow was still hanging onto terra firma. However the set of trucks on that end of the car that was suspended in mid air had not fared so well. They had followed the cars ahead of them into Davy Jones’ locker. An amazing fact about rail cars and their components, they float about as well bricks.
The crew involved got some time off over the affair, but I cannot recall what it was they received for discipline. I do know that the ends of the tracks were fortified a bit more after this event though.
In 1986 after I joined the Chicago Central & Pacific, I got real exposure to rotary dump operation with rotary dump cars. CCP used to spot and pull ComEd’s Plaines Generating Plant just south of Joliet, IL. There were times we arrived to pull empties and the plant crew was not quite finished dumping the loads yet. We would sit and wait sometimes roaming around the plant and finding the lunchroom. One day I decided to observe the operation from the dumper operator’s perspective. Again I talked my way into the room. This guy was really friendly and explained everything he was doing.
This facility could only dump one car at a time. A car would be spotted and prepared for dumping. They had to be more precisely spotted here. Once spotted, the clamps to hold the car in place and the arms to hold the car itself were placed into position and the dumping process would be started. Like at the mill, the track structure and car would begin to rotate and once it reached enough of an angle, the coal would begin to pour out. The dumper would hesitate for a moment and then rotate completely upside down. Once all the coal was out, back over the car came. In the case of the Plaines and Bethlehem Steel dumpers only rotate about 180° and not a full 360°, so the car is rotated back in the same direction it came from.
I was there one night when it was particularly cold outside. Cold like below zero cold. Coal has a tendency to freeze in the cars as there is still some water left in the it after the coal has been processed and washed. When coal is frozen, it doesn’t want to fall out of the car when dumped as it has frozen to the car. To alleviate this problem, a saline type solution is sprayed on the coal to help create thawing action. As this one particular car was spotted, the dumper operator commented about the frost on it. Apparently the solution either was not spayed on this car or not much solution actually made it onto the coal. Aluminum cars cannot be subject to the radiant heating from the thawing sheds. This is why the saline solution is used.
The dumping begins and very little coal came out of the car. As it was turned completely over, just a little more came out. The operator gave it a few shakes back and forth. All of a sudden, the entire load, almost in one solid piece just sort of fell out of the car and onto the dumper floor below. It hit with a big crash and boom, shaking everything around us. The dumper operator laughed and commented how that really shook up everything and probably scared the hell out of a few people.
Over at Bethlehem and also at US Steel they had thawing sheds to thaw out the frozen coal. These sheds used heating elements using electricity for power. They put out quite a bit of heat that in addition to thawing out coal, they sometimes scorched the paint on the car sides. The intense heat also deteriorated the air hoses. The thawing sheds work quite well for steel-bodied cars, which are used primarily to haul coal into the mills.
Care must be used to assure that there is one rotary end coupled to a rigid (non-rotating) draw bar. There are two types of rotary equipped cars. Some have a rotary coupler at each end. The car next to it has two rigid drawbars. What is done to make up a train is to place a twin rotary every other car. The rigid drawbar car is in between two twin rotary equipped drawbars. In this situation there are normally one of two methods (if not both) used to readily differentiate the cars. On rotary equipped cars, both of the rotary ends are painted a different color than the rest of the car. Rigid ends are the same color as the rest of the car. In the case of a fleet of twin rotaries used with twin rigid cars, they may use different numbering sequences for the cars. All rigids might have road numbers that end with an odd number and the rotaries might end in even numbers. Or the rotaries might have a different series of numbers than rigid drawbar cars. The rotaries might be in a series like 4000 and the rigids might be in the 5000 series for example.
The more common type of arrangement has one end of each car rotary equipped and the other end having a rigid drawbar. If they are all lined up correctly, all the rigids face the same direction in the train while all the rotaries face the opposite direction. However, cars may get set out of a train bad ordered or be due an inspection or rebuilding. When they get cut back into a train, it may be train facing the opposite direction. Coal trains are generally loaded on loops which turn the entire train. At the unloading end of the cycle, the train is often operated on a loop as well. Not all cars are assigned to a particular plant or mine either, so this can affect the direction a train will face. Watch a unit coal train of rotary dump cars go by closely and you’ll often see several rotary ends facing the opposite way of the rest of them within the train.
When this happens, the train must be uncoupled during the unloading process. On occasion, somebody at the dumping end misses this little detail and bad things happen. I was fortunate enough to witness this happening one night at Plaines. I was sitting in with the dumper operator as they finished up dumping the last few cars. The cut was rolled ahead and the next load was spotted. The operator began his routine sequence to prepare for dumping. As he prepared the car for dumping, I spotted two rigid drawbars together. I tried to point this out but he told me I was wrong. OK, I haven’t dumped thousands of loads of coal so I guess I’m the idiot here. I need to mention that periodically they did this at Plaines and we would have to make special arrangements to move these cars back to Hawthorne Yard for repairs, but still he knew it all. So I shut my mouth and watched.
As the car began to rotate, there was this groaning and creaking sound and then a very loud SNAP! The operator looked at me and said "Oh Oh" and hit the emergency stop button on his control board. He called on his radio to one of the helpers to look at the car. The helper reported back after looking the situation over and sure enough, two rigid drawbars were indeed coupled together. They were still coupled but one of them was not connected to the car anymore though. The rotation had ripped the drawbar loose from the bell housing, key and keeper that holds it in place. The bell housing was severely damaged on this car as well and the car had to be set out before they could continue dumping. Being the drawbar was completely ripped out of its mount on the car, there was no way to couple to the rest of this cut of cars. The drawbar was sitting sort of sideways on the damaged car ready to fall completely out. Now who was the idiot?
For those interested in the saga of our tentative contract as discussed in the Collective Bargaining piece last time, it has come out of committee as it were, and we as the rank and file will be voting on it next month. The General Chairman is appearing at special meetings being conducted by all the Local Committees throughout the system. Representatives of the carrier have also been making appearances at some of these meetings to answer questions and discuss the ramifications of the new contract. I have a copy of it and have read through it several times now, including the side letters an question and answer sessions included. If I am not working when they have the special meeting here, I shall be in attendance. I pretty much have made up my mind how I will vote, but do have questions about some language within and need some clarification.
This contract is quite different and a major break from the method in which we presently operate under the current agreement. I will reserve any comments favorable or unfavorable at this time as to my opinion on this groundbreaking new agreement. I will keep you all posted as to its outcome and have more details about the agreement. Stay tuned.
Also for those readers in the United States, it is strongly recommended that you write, phone or e-mail your Congressional Representatives and Senators on Capitol Hill as well as President Bush at the White House to urge their support for Amtrak. Washington handed out billions to the publicly held and for profit airline industry. Why should they not support the cash starved and never planned for profit Amtrak? Remind them of the strategic value of Amtrak, how many patrons depend upon it as they don’t, won’t or can’t fly or drive as an alternative. You may also want to present them with a history lesson about how the nation’s railroads exited the passenger business as they no longer made money doing it and how the privatization idea would still require operating subsidies from Washington.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Congress is likely to recess on Friday WITHOUT passing the needed funding ... from the UTU site:
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=2204
Bailout, or no, what we really need is a plan that consists of more than lipservice. I don't see one coming from McCain, Bush, et. al.
The word "plan" and those names are mutually exclusive it would seem on ANY basis. I've never seen things go to hell so fast in my life in oh so many directions. Arrrgh.
also the word "clue"
3 words: bring back bubba.
Heh... I don't like Clinton much more than I like Shrub, but at least it was only his intern that was getting screwed instead of the rest of us.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>3 words: bring back bubba.<<
Two words: castrate bubba !
Bill "Newkirk"
Damn! We must of had 300 New Topics on Amtraks Shutdown in the last 2 weeks!
I'm starting to think e-dog's right - maybe amtrak really does need to shut down - then when at the very least the northeast is thrown into chaos, with loads and loads of commuters not getting to work, then maybe just maybe we'll all start talking about impeaching another president for being such a clueless ****.
Somebody who's regualrly up around E 180th St, please tell me:
Are the 'Old-IRT' home signals still working, or have they been cut over?
These are the ones with WHITE lever numbers on RED background plates; where one signal head always displays red.
The last ones I saw not cut over were at E180, and at Freeman St.
Thanks, Dave
Still working for now, but that will be changing soon.
-Stef
Last I checked, the entire line between E180 and 149-GC (including the homeball at the south end of 149-GC, controlling the 2/5 split) still had the old signals. I was last up that way maybe a month or so ago.
Last time I got dropped off there at E180 they had the old type (month ago). I'll be up there end of July and will try for a railfan window.
They still use the IRT signals on the No.2+5 Lines from E 180 St to 149 GC. Also old IRT signals use North of E 180 St to South of Bronx Park East and the whole DYRE AVE Line is controled with IRT Signals.
Thanx.
From my research library:
R38 Bids per car
$112,763 71,331 lbs SLC composite
$113,142 71,935 lbs SLC LAHT
$113,550 69,878 lbs Budd SS
$113,617 70,045 lbs SLC SS
$114,570 70,158 lbs Budd composite
Composite is low alloy high tensile steel underframe, stainless steel body sheathing, and aluminum roof
SS is all stainless steel
As you can see St Louis Car won the R38 contract for a composite car. My feeling is that had the NYCTA known at that time (Apr 65) of how a stainless steel body would have held up, it may have awarded the R38 contract to Budd based on weight.
What's "LAHT"? And where can one do some research on his own with findings like this?
Low
Alloy
High
Tensile
(steel)
David
The stuff the Redbirds were made of.
I couldn't agree more. Had Budd also won the R40/42 contracts, and had made them of 100% stainless steel, the R160 contract could wait to 2010 at least.
What I'm surprised to see is that St. Louis submitted all-LAHT and all-stainless-steel bids and that Budd submitted a composite bid. It is too bad the TA didn't spend the extra money for full stainless steel cars. It would have gone a lot further in the long run. Same thing with the R40's, R42's and R44's.
Are there still any R32's left in Coney Island, or did they go to Pitkin and Jamaica already?
As of 6/12/02, there are 70 R-32s assigned to Coney Island Yard.
I rode one R-32 train on the N and passed one going the other way. They're still out there.
IMHO the R-32s will be associated with the N in some capacity for as long as they remain in service. They've never really left that line since 1965.
I doubt there will be any R-32's remaining on the N in a year. There probably will be R-42's, though.
I think Amtrak should sell Penn Station to the MTA, then the MTA should lease one side to the LIRR, the other to NJT. This would take that financial burden off their shoulders and put it on a company that has the capital to maintain and operate it. Or how about this: In case of an Amtrak shutdown, Metro-North should be called upon to operate trains on the Hudson Line to Albany-Rensalaer only and to Hartford-Springfield or Boston on the NH Line. NJT should be called upon to operate the Metroliner to Washington D.C. only. The Northeast should be spared from total chaos due to the shutdown if these trains can be kept running.
News flash: Amtrak has already hocked Penn Station. It is not in the position to "sell" it. And why should the Northeast be spared chaos? Amtrak is a national corporation and this is a national issue.
NY/NJ should *redeem* Penn Station! : )
I may be wrong about this, but I believe that Amtrak didn't sell Penn Station, but mortgaged it. As such, I would assume they retained control to sell and realize any potential gain on the value of the property (of course they aren't exactly bargaining from a position of strength).
The idea to sell to the MTA is really a 6 of one, half a dozen of the other idea. As it currently stands, Amtrak pays a mortgage and for the maintenance/upkeep, but collects some type of rent/fee from LIRR and NJT. If they sold to the MTA, they'd still have to pay a fee to the MTA to use Penn -- and that fee would probably not be substantially different from what their net payment is now.
Also, the shutdown situation works both ways. If they sold Penn to the MTA, and there was an LIRR strike -- then Amtrak and NJT could be shut out.
CG
It's just an idea, I don't expect the powers that be to sit up and take notice. I'm just as concerned about Amtrak shutting down as the majority of the public who use mass transit. Sorry for expressing an opinion. Sheesh.
I think Amtrak should sell Penn Station to the MTA
Nah, that idea's got too much sense to it!
where can i put up my lirr bahn layout?(the tracks are incorrect, but the service is quite accurate)
Send 'em to the author of Bahn, herr Jan Bochmann himself.
Of course, I hope you paid the shareware fees before you post it anywhere.
ok
F/V Service FLIP-FLOP PLAN:
From Straphanger Campaign Website:
Here's A Recap of what these "CRAP-HANGER CAMPAIGN" said about the new V Train
What’s wrong with the new routes?
The new routes offer many Queens Boulevard line riders poor choices: Those seeking the East Side business district can either pack onto crowded E expresses, or take a slow local V, or ride an F express to a Manhattan stop few want to go to.
• The new V is unpopular: The V is operating at only 49% of capacity during peak hour. If New York City Transit were to follow its own guidelines, service would be cut drastically.
• The V is slow: Riders aren’t taking the V because it’s a local and too slow. So said 66% of those New York City Transit surveyed at the Roosevelt Avenue subway station in April 2002. Transit officials argue that there’s only a five-minute difference in scheduled running time between the E and V going from Roosevelt Avenue to 53rd Street and Lexington Avenue. But that still adds up to nearly an hour of extra commuting time a week. Many of those riders already having long bus-to-subway daily rides and also find the many extra local stops inconvenient.
• The new routes are providing only minimal relief of crowding: In January and February 2002, crowding on the E was still above capacity (116% and 104% respectively.) Only in March did crowding fall below guidelines (96%), a month filled with holidays. In addition, there’s above-guideline crowding on the E at Roosevelt Avenue in all but the two middle cars out of ten. That’s because many riders want to be at either the front of the train (to get off near the escalators at the 53rd Street/Lexington Avenue Station) or the back of the train (to get off near the Madison Avenue exit at 53rd Street/Fifth Avenue Station.) New York City Transit’s future plans call for a re-design of Roosevelt Avenue station to make people walk to the middle of the platform. But many will go back to where they want on the platform. Those that do not will just have an even longer commute, as they get on the back of the huge lines at the 53rd Street/Lexington Avenue and 53rd Street/Fifth Avenue stations.
What should be done?
The Straphangers Campaign appreciates that New York City Transit feels it is doing its best in the absence of what’s really needed: a new subway line through Queens. But we respectfully disagree with offering riders poor choices.
We support changing the plan, so that the F express would go to 53rd Street and Lexington Avenue and the V local would go through the 63rd Street tunnel. Transit’s prediction that this“flip” would“not reduce crowding on express trains as effectively as the current plan.” But this routing would be providing its riders with the service that the large majority of riders on the line want.
Here’s what I think will happen to QB LINES if TA decided to switch V over to 63rd and F over back to 53rd . I came up with this QB Service Changes. And I hope for sake of the future, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!
F Train:
[All Times] – Express stops in Queens, and all stops in Manhattan & Brooklyn, from 179 Street/Jamaica, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn. (via 53rd Street Tunnel).
V Train:
[All Time] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hills, Queens, through Manhattan, to Church Ave, Brooklyn. (via 63rd street Tunnel)
G Train:
[Middays/Rush Hours/Evening] – All stops from Court Square/LIC, Queens, to Church Avenue, Brooklyn.
[Weekends /Nights] – All stops from Jamaica Center, Queens to Smith-9 Street, Brooklyn.
E Train:
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evening] – Express stops in Queens and all stops in Manhattan, from Jamaica Center, Queens, to World Trade Center, Manhattan.
[Nights] – No Service; Use A for service to/from Manhattan, and F V for service to/from Queens. Transfer between A F and V at West 4 Street, Manhattan.
[Weekends] – No Service; Use C instead for service in Manhattan.
R Train: Broadway Local
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
[Weekends/Nights] – Brooklyn Service Only between 36 Street and 95 Street, Brooklyn. Transfer to N at 36 Street for service to/from Manhattan and Queens.
I’m 100% guaranteed that this QB Service Changes plan will upset “E and R” Train Riders.
Anyone have a different QB SERVICE Change Plan, Please..Please feel free to share it. I would love to hear your ideas of this changes.
The changes you describe would most definitely upset E and R riders not just in Queens, but also Manhattan and Brooklyn R riders as well. Cutting the weekend R to Brooklyn service only would really be a problem, as the N is expected to become a Brooklyn-only service on weekends after 9/8/02. You would only have the W running through the Montague Tunnel and on the Broadway Local tracks on weekends, and that is not enough service.
No E on weekends? I don't think the weekend C alone is enough for 8th Avenue local service, much like the weekend W alone would not be enough for Broadway local service. As for the weekend G from Jamaica Center, given all the bus and LIRR transfers there, I'm pretty sure those riders will be royally mad about having to switch again to the F or V to get to Manhattan.
So write a letter to MTA. Make your voice heard there, because if all you do is post here, a dozen or so Subfans will read it. Not that you shouldn't post here.
Call your local legislator, and let him/her know how you feel. Also the Borough President.
Don't limit your bravado to Subtalk.
You bet I would, I say V train stay. If "CRAP-HANGER Campaign doens't like it, they can Kiss Mah ASS. Better yet maybe U and I along with V Train M20 Bus protest in front of Straphanger Campaign office and MTA Headquarter to show our support with V Train.
WE LOVE THE V TRAIN!....WE LOVE THE V TRAIN!
GO FOR IT.
i hope something like that happens so those jackasses can shut the hell up.if i made the decision of how it is now and they kept complaining to me about it,id be royally pissed off like i am now and say "alright fine!i'll make it even worse for you clowns! how does no E trains on the weekend and V's to Continental all times and G's ending at Court Sq all times and no Queens R service on weekends sound to you!" but then again you hope something like that wont happen and i assure you it wont.something along the lines of the Q on Queens Blvd in the next 3 years or so sounds just about whats gonna happen then.
These JACK ASS JERK can complain all they want. BECAUSE TA WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT IT.
Anyone have a different QB SERVICE Change Plan, Please..Please feel free to share it. I would love to hear your ideas of this changes.
Sure do.
(E) WTC - 8th Av Local - 53rd St - Queens Local - Continental
Full time.
(F) Stillwell - Culver - 6th Av Local - 53rd St - Queens Express - Hillside
Full time.
(G) Smith / 9th - Crosstown - Court Sq
Evenings and Weekends extended via Queens Local to Continental
(Q) Brighton Loc/Exp - Broadway Express - 63rd St - Queens Express - Jamaica
Full time.
(R) Bay Ridge - Broadway Local - 60th St - Queens Local - Continental
Late Nights operates as a shuttle from 36th St to Bay Ridge.
(V) Broadway Junction - B'way (B'klyn) Local - 6th Av Local - 63rd St - Queens Local - Continental
Rush Hours Only.
Same problem as all the other F/V flip-flop plans:
- Fewer people can make use of a V local from Continental to 63rd St and then 6th Ave than from Continental to 53rd and then 6th Ave.
- The expresses still have a capacity of 30 tph and are currently quite crowded, but less crowded than before 12/2001.
So, the new V diverts fewer people off the expresses than the old V. Therefore the expresses get more crowded again.
Also, of course, as a side effect, the plan irritates all the people who really want an express to 8th Ave.
Then, 8av riders can transfer to a F at West4 or a Q at 42st. i think the plan is good.
Then, 8av riders can transfer to a F at West4 or a Q at 42st. i think the plan is good.
Thanks. Perhaps I should set out the reasoning behind the plan. It has a focus on the Local rider, as Express trains have become overcrowded partly because of the focus from them. It is therefore designed to:
(1) Give local riders a one seat ride to 6th Av, Broadway and 8th Av. Lines with a second service to Queens will have an Express, but an underlying principle of Express service is that it is supplementary to local service.
(2) Give local riders a one seat ride to 53rd St, 60th St and 63rd St.
(3) Balance service between the tunnels, with one local and one express in each.
(1) is obviously fulfilled by the (E), (R), and (V) being local. I anticipate a further beneficial effect of making the E local would be to reduce overcrowding on that train, as those riders who want an express don't crowd the only 8th Av service. I decided on putting the (V) as rush hour only, because I anticipate it would not have justifiable ridership outside these times. Off peak the (B) would use 57/7 as its Northern Terminus, as for similar reasons the need for a second Concourse service off peak simply is not there (which the TA recognise by terminating it at 145). The fact that the (C) doesn't even run full length trains shows that two CPW Locals could easily be reduced to one off peak, by lengthening C trains, with some perhaps terminating at Chambers southbound.
(2) is therefore not true off peak, but for justifiable reasons.
If (3) is accepted, the only plan I can think of that works, is:
53rd St: (E) Queens Local, (F) Queens Express
60th St: (N/W) Astoria Local, (R) Queens Local (yes, this is cheating, but the (N) should be a Broadway Express)
63rd St: (Q) Queens Express, (V) Queens Local
The limiting factor on the Queens Local is of course the capacity for turning trains at Continental. This needn't be such a problem. By inserting a switch in Jamaica Yard from the loop track to one track further West to avoid the train cleaning machine and designating this track (like the City Hall loop) as revenue trackage, the terminal capacity would increase to 30tph. This would allow the circle to be squared and the following number of trains to be turned, although the car shortage would prevent the (G) from running to Continental whilst the (V) is running:
(E) up to 10tph (Daytime 8)
(G) up to 6tph (Daytime 5)
(R) up to 8tph (Daytime 6)
(V) up to 6tph (No Daytime Service)
Add too much Broadway which is no longer what they want (post 51/53rd st connection).
Express service on the F being a problem as that is where all the put ins go.
Good point about 8th Ave riders. Running the E local in Queens would annoy the heck out of Queens riders. I think the MTA is better off keeping Queens service the way it is...for now.
Running the E local in Queens would annoy the heck out of Queens riders.
Of course it is going to annoy them if it is going to change their ridership habits. The (E) train is currently the most overused train in Queens. Locals tend to have less demand than expresses. By forcing 8th Av riders to use a local, local ridership will rise and express ridership will fall. The (Q) train is a very good replacement for express sevice in Queens as:
Queens Local riders would still have access to Broadway (R), and 63rd St (V).
The (Q) Express serves most Midtown destinations better than the (E) train, as very few destinations are located West of 8th Av. The (Q) train makes it easier to get downtown, as several cross-platform transfers are available onto Broadway Local services (Continental, 57/7, Times Sq, Herald Sq, Union Sq).
Express riders wanting to get to 8th Av could ride the (F) train to 5th Av then get on an (E) Train on the same platform - hardly a difficult transfer.
You're correct in stating many of the advantages of having the Q run express in Queens. I've been arguing some of these very same points. I've just noticed one more potential problem with your plan. During rush hours you would have the E, R and V all terminate at Continental. Does Continental Av have the ability to turn around three different routes during rush hours? If it does have that capability, then I believe your plan could work.
I've just noticed one more potential problem with your plan. During rush hours you would have the E, R and V all terminate at Continental. Does Continental Av have the ability to turn around three different routes during rush hours? If it does have that capability, then I believe your plan could work.
You are correct that with the current configuration it would not work. My plan actually involves inserting one switch to slightly increase the capacity of the terminal. (In fact it would increase it so much that four services could terminate there, but that's not the point).
If you look at
http://www.nycsubway.org/yards/jamaica/bigjamaica.gif
you will see a picture of Jamaica Yard, the leads of which the (R) and (V) trains currently relay on. A relay terminal roughly halves the terminal capacity due to TA rules. Therefore, I'd designate a path looping through the yard straight from the Eastbound to Westbound Platforms at Continental as mainline track, just like the City Hall loop, therefore increasing capacity to 30tph for the terminal. This would enter the Yard at the top of the gif file on the right hand most track but one, then use the switches over to the left hand side of the gif to the track labelled "Loop Track". If you follow this track around, you'll find it blocked by the Car Wash Facilities. Never mind. Here's where I'd insert the switch: from just before the Detergent Spray Station onto the next track to the right (labelled "Revenue Service Layups"), then follow this track back out of the yard to the top right track back into Continental. By designating this as revenue trackage, the train does not have to be emptied of passengers, so the three to four minute delay at Continental is at least halved.
Having road trains loop a yard for normal scheduled service would make yard operations impossible. In additon, yard trackage is not revenue trackage so trains must be emptied at Continental.
the problem wiht the relay services at Continental is that it was orignally meant for one local service to terminate there only. It only has two relay tracks on the lower level.
You make some great points. To be fair, the E does serve some busy places (53/Lex and the IRT, 53/Fifth, 42 St-Port Authority Bus Terminal and Penn Station. WTC used to be a heavy destination, too, and one day will be again).
But riders do have a lot of options.
Interesting plan. There's a couple of problems I see though. The 2 Q's together run about 16 tph. Sending them both to Jamaica Center would be difficult. From what I've heard Jamaica Center can't handle more than 12 tph. The only way your plan works is if one of the Q's heads to 179 Street.
The second problem: what train will stop at 57 Street-6 Ave during non-rush hours?
Interesting plan. There's a couple of problems I see though. The 2 Q's together run about 16 tph. Sending them both to Jamaica Center would be difficult. From what I've heard Jamaica Center can't handle more than 12 tph. The only way your plan works is if one of the Q's heads to 179 Street.
Firstly, come 2004, there will almost definitely be fewer Q trains. Even so, 16tph on the Q would not be a problem. By no means would half the Q trains have to go to 179th St - just up to 4tph as the E currently does. That would be equivalent to alternate circle Q trains originating or terminating at 179th at Peak Times.
The second problem: what train will stop at 57 Street-6 Ave during non-rush hours?
My thoughts are that one of three things could happen:
(1) It closes Off Peak - it's only 5 minutes walk according to the Manhattan Bus Map to both 57/7 and 59-60/Lex. If you really are that lazy that you can't be bothered to walk one block, bus service isn't exactly bad there - it's served by the M5, M6, M7, M30, M31, and M57.
(2) A single track TPTO shuttle operates on the Queens-bound track between 47th-50th and Lex.
(3) B Trains terminate at 57/6 Off-Peak, as they don't even get to the Concourse Line off-peak anyway, and the C train is so underused they don't even run full length trains on it, so a second CPW Local isn't really necessary.
I prefer Option (3) out of those, as (1) would annoy the hell out of people who use that stop, (2) would be expensive and would cause track congestion, and (3) uses fewer trains.
I thought you meant these service changes for the here and now, not in the year 2004. For 2004, your plan is a pretty good one, though E train riders may riot.
I thought you meant these service changes for the here and now, not in the year 2004.
I really meant it for either, but of course 2004 would pobably mean more (F) trains and fewer (Q) trains - not a big deal. In the meantime a few trains at peak times will not be able to go to Jamaica Center.
Reduced Q train service?
Could you be more specific?
In 2004, the Manny B reopens with four tracks. So the F continues its run through the Rutgers Street tunnel, and the D and B trains have access to the Manhattan Bridge.
Is the reduction due to increases in demand on rolling stock (the R143 is taking care of that)?
Or are we simply renaming some Q trains N trains (eg Broadway Express over the Manny B)?
Could you be more specific?
In 2004, the Manny B reopens with four tracks. So the F continues its run through the Rutgers Street tunnel, and the D and B trains have access to the Manhattan Bridge.
What I'd like to happen come 2004 (please no going off on the all options are being considered tangent - this is pure opinion) is:
(A) Rush Hours express in Washington Heights, other times Local.
(B) Rush Hours: 168th St - CPW Local - 6th Av Express - West End Local - Stillwell (skips De Kalb)
(B) Other Times: 57/6 - 6th Av Express - West End Local - Stillwell
(C) Northern terminal switched back to BPB - Local when (D) is running Peak Direction Express, at other times terminating at 145th St.
(D) 205th St - Concourse Peak Dir Exp - CPW Exp - 6th Av Exp - Brighton Local - Stillwell
(E),(F),(G),(R),(V) as outlined before.
(S),(J),(L),(M),(S),(Z) no change.
(N) Astoria Local - Broadway Express - 4th Av Express - Sea Beach Local - Stillwell (Rush hours skips De Kalb)
(Q) Jamaica - Queens Express - Broadway Express - Brighton Express - Brighton Beach
< Q > Rush hours only: Jamaica - Queens Express - Broadway Express (switching to Local before Canal St) - Whitehall St
(W) Astoria Local - Broadway Local - Whitehall St (Rush hours extended to Bay Ridge)
OK, now I understand. The reduction in Q service is part of your own proposal, not anything MTA is planning to do.
There are now currently two services called the Q: the Brighton express (diamond) and the Brighton local (circle).
It's a good guess that, come 2004, one of those services will no longer be called the Q (because it won't be running on Broadway).
Yep, it will be called the "D".
wayne
Probably, unless it runs via Nassau (which I'd consider very unlikely but I still wouldn't rule out entirely).
OK. I guess I ignored the current, temporary arrangement of Q services.
That would certainly not happen-though I don't know if you're kidding. The TA would probably use the plan described in post 348760 by British James.
That would certainly not happen-though I don't know if you're kidding. The TA would probably use the plan described in post 348760 by British James.
Thanks! However, I think we are agreed that the TA's current plan is actually pretty good considering infrastructure limitations (and IMHO not wanting to risk the brave decision of making the E local) and the Straphangers, or as ExpressM calls them the Cr*phangers, are talking out of their posteriors!
Option1(simple, less expensive)- [rush hour]extend all G R V to 179st, local. V via 63st. F via 53st, hillside av express. E bring up to 15tph from 12tph. [weekends] E local to jamaica ctr, g to court, V R to 179 local. F to 179 exp. [nites] e same as wkends, f same as wkends but hillside av lcl, g same as wkends, v to 21st, r as bay ridge shuttle
Option2(more expensive)- What about reconstructing the Kew Garden relay into a ramp to a upper or lower level to a 4-8 track relay yard so the G R and V can terminate there. Flop the F/V. Since the G is extended, local service from 53st is not needed. And now, 63st riders have a direct Queens local ride. I don't think extending a Q into queens is necessary with the E F G R V. Itll just create more congestion anyways. Just increase E frequency from 12tph to 15tph, making 53st and Queens exp, 30tph.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. The Straphangers are ignorant about transit service patterns, ridership needs and operational constraints.
Per your F/V service plan, ridership and overnight general orders cannot justify duplicate service from 47/50th St. (Rock. Ctr.) all the way to Church Ave. This is why 63rd St. is served 24/7 by the F and 53d St. is served 24/7 by the E.......E/G: Jamaica Center is a 2 track terminal. The E runs lots of service, there is seldom a 1:1 ratio of E to G. The terminal can't handle all that. You also cut out direct Manhattan service to/from Jamaica Center on the midnights. Unacceptable.
In addition, your home station has to be somewhere between 47/50th and Church! Why else would you be shafting everybody else for your own benefit!
Were talking about V over the 63rd and F return to 53rd. The problem with rely on 24hrs service via 63rd line and G train. 63rd street station needs 24/7 service. If V were to switch to 63rd that means that V will operate 24/7. And F will operate as current V service. The question is should V remain local or become express in Queens? Which train terminates at manhattan and at brooklyn? As far as G is concerned, because of Greenpoint people, terminate G at court sq cannot be extented on weekends and midday.
"As far as G is concerned, because of Greenpoint people, terminate G at court sq cannot be extented on weekends and midday. "
That is a legitimate political and customer-service issue, where Greenpoint users compete against others for extent of access to the subway.
That these battles can be bitterly fought is a measure of how successful the NYC transit system is.
I rode a diamond "Q" train to Brighton Beach today and I noticed at times a noise was coming through the P/A system. Unlike some of the R-68s the noise comes about, and then fades away. This happened on both of the Slant R-40s I rode today, cars #4339 & 4327. The R-68s that I rode for a few stops today (cars #2854 & 2788) were quiet.
#3 West End Jeff
I rode slants on the Brighton every day last summer and most of them make the noise you describe, where it comes and goes and is generally as annoying as all h3ll.
However, nothing was as noisy as R-68 #2802 when I rode it on March 24, 2002 on the "Q". It was so noisy that I had to wear my little black hood that I use to keep my head warm so that my minor cleft palate won't bother me too much, instead to protect my sensitive ears from the annoying high pitched squeal that was coming through the P/A system in the above mentioned R-68 subway car.
#3 West End Jeff
Heard on the news that the bad storms this evening knocked out power to a large portion of the NE Bronx. If this has caused any subway disruptions, please mention it here.
I was at Roosevelt Ave at about 620 pm and a R-40 slant signed as a diamond Q pulled in on the local track heading towards Continental. The C/R kept saying "this is an R, this is an R". I was a little confused but I got on and it was so well air-conditioned. Anyone know what happened today that this train was re-routed?
I was there too!
The whole B-division seemed a mess this afternoon. I was waiting for an (F) at 14th, took a (V) when I saw that there were obviously big delays. Transfered to a (7) local at 42nd/6th, but not before I saw an R32 on the southbound express track. It was a (C). I stayed on the (7) until 74th/Broadway to transfer back to the (F) at Roosevelt Ave. For once, I seemed to actually save time by the process. Something was blocking up Queens-bound express service, since the platform was unusually crowded (and very hot!), no (E) or (F) came for a while, and the locals were packed.
Anyway, that slant (Q) came by, way outa left field. I got on, hoping that perhaps it would run through to 179th. But then they announced that it was an (R), just going to Continental. At that point an (F) pulled in, presumably the first express in a while. I got on and got home without further incident.
I wonder what was going on.
:-) Andrew
hey Andrew,how do you do that color changing thing when you write the train route?
I learned it here. Use these < > brackets, and inside write "font color=purple", for instance, without the quotes. When you want to change it back to black, do the same but write "font color=black". Use the "Preview Message" function before posting to make sure it works.
:-) Andrew
ok let me give it try.... Stand clear of the closing doors on this Brooklyn Bound 1 train. *bing bong*
wow it works cool!! now how do i do it while wanting the characters to be bold lettered or numbered?
makes text bold, brings it back to normal.
test
< b > makes text bold, < /b > brings it back
do i put that before or after i put the color change one?
There are probably thousands of websites out there that will teach you everything about html and answer any questions you have.
Darlene, as Jeff said in his post there are plenty of websites with HMTL info. My personal favorite is Quadzilla... you might want to check it out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
J M Z trains to Broad St.
If you think that's cool
HOW ABOUT THIS!! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
THIS IS EVEN BETTER!:-)
WTF!?!?!?!?!?!?!? what in the blue hell is that!?how did you do that!?
I'm not very good about explaning specifics, but right click and look for "view source" on any given message. That's how I educated myself.
Peace,
ANDEE
If you have IE, go to the IE page and look for IE5 powertoys (or something). One of them will be a partial source viewer. It will make it much easier to view what you want.
Hey, I did it!
IF YOU TAKE THE A TRAIN...........
congarts
Peace,
ANDEE
OOPS...I Mean CONGRATS.
Peace,
ANDEE
...YOU MADE A WISE CHOICE.
Well actually since the song has the A Train involved, let's think of the A train in the 40's....maybe more like this........
IF YOU TAKE THE A TRAIN...........
Unfortunately now it's a little more like this:
IF YOU TAKE THE A TRAIN...........
But I love it anyway....
Yeah, the scrolling speed of that top line was more reminiscent of the R-10s. Ah, the good old days......
If you think that's cool
HOW ABOUT THIS!! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
OR THIS:-)
OK, I'm gonna try it.
"This is Times Square, 42nd Street. Change here for the 1 2 3 A C E N Q R and W trains.
you forgot the purple 7, and the S. Otherwise, niiiiiiiice
I'm already ON the 7, announcing all the other lines available for transfer at Times Square. Except for the S, of course- who would take the 7 to TS and change for the S, only to end up back at Grand Central?
Unfortunately, in my efforts in putting in the message and changing the colors back and forth, I forgot the closing quotation mark.
Boy, is my face red .
>>. Except for the S, of course- who would take the 7 to TS and change for the S, only to end up back at Grand Central?<<
On the subtalk message board, i think it's unanimous that we ALL would
How do you change the font? I know how to change size and color.
You should combine all three into one tag:
I should point out that if the person looking at the web page doesn't have the specified font on his computer, the text is displayed in his browser's default font.
You can specify multiple fonts in priority order by going TYPE="type1,type2,type3" If the first font is unavailable, the second will be displayed, and if that's not available, the third and so on, so you can make sure that some font you want is displayed.
<FONT TYPE="fonttype"> You should combine all three into one tag:
<FONT TYPE="fonttype" SIZE="size" COLOR="color">
I should point out that if the person looking at the web page doesn't have the specified font on his computer, the text is displayed in his browser's default font.
You can specify multiple fonts in priority order by going TYPE="type1,type2,type3" If the first font is unavailable, the second will be displayed, and if that's not available, the third and so on, so you can make sure that some font you want is displayed.
To change back to black just close the html with a slash as in
< /font> (with no space between the first bracket and the slash.
By the way: You can write in invisible ink this way. If anyone out there can read the following expression you will win a free trip to the 76th Street Station from the Lower Level of the 42nd Street Station:
Four score and seven years ago...
P.S. Pigs in excluded from the competition as I know he knows how to do it!!!
When do we go? No R46s please.
:) Andrew
Only pre-war stuff as the R1-9 or the Standards.
Sounds peachy! Let's make a day out of it and visit the real end of the (F) at 268 St/Langdale St. I hear the Sasquatch lives, right?
:-) Andrew
Sounds peachy! Let's make a day out of it and visit the real end of the (F) at 268 St/Langdale St. I hear the Sasquatch lives there, right?
:-) Andrew
That would be great, but I'd settle for the R10's
Sounds good to me. What time?
Sounds great! I always wanted to see both those stations!
Actually, when you are finished using a special color, you should use a </FONT> tag, rather than a <FONT COLOR=BLACK> tag. That way, it doesn't matter what the original color was; it will always be restored.
- Lyle Goldman
It's likely that the IND was backed up somewhere, and they added to the "R" service via BMT 60th Street by extending the diamond Q from 57/7 to Forest Hills.
Only 2 trains departed 5th/53rd southbound from about 5:20 to 5:40. Both were E's and I believe both were sent down 6th Avenue (I was on the second one, so I know that for sure). We crawled to 42nd (15 minutes), where I bailed and just walked over to Times Square to get the IRT instead.
Gotta love the unlimted card.
CG
There were Power and Signal Problems at Canal St on 8th Ave. They had train from the Q runing into queens just to get service there. There was an 1 R sent to 179 and 1 R sent to Jamcia. I was sent out 50min late on the V and it took me 1:30 to get to 2nd Ave. Were sat beteen 53rd and 47-50 for abour 20mins and then drad ass down the rest of the way. They sent my leader down 8th Ave. E were runing eather to 2nd Ave, Whitehall or W4th Upper. I even heard that the Grand St shuttle was supended so E could be turn there as well. It was a very big mess, I can just wait untill we get 100+ temps, so the hole system can fry.
Robert
I don't know what was going on but I do know that an E came to 5th Street as an R. This was at about 6:30.
Signal trouble at Canal St. on the 8th Avenue line is what mucked everything up. I make the 1706 W out of Astoria, got held at 11th St. cut for an E crossing in front of me, his leader, already sent down Broadway, was supposed to go to Whitehall, later heard City Hall tower tell the crew that they would have to go through to 95th St., then once in Brooklyn, Murphy tower rerouted the same train to 86th St. on the Sea Beach. Talk about a reaming. oof!
Actually I was on a Brooklyn-Bound 'F' train during the delay. I got on at 57th & 6th. The train creeped from station to station. The conductor said that there were rerouted 'E' trains ahead of us. And to make things worse there was a 'F' at W4 st with its brakes stuck in emergency. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the switches south of the W4 st station? So if there was a train stuck in emergency on the South-Bound local track at W4, the other guys behind him would have no place to go.
Well if you guys thought that was fun, my M train last week (1703 "Mary" MET) was sent thru to Bay Ridge-95th. And man were the passengers for 9 Avenue thru Bay Parkway pissed!! And damn was it ever so interesting trying to explain the change to a majority of people whom DID NOT understand English very well, just to have 'em finally get it and be pissed about it!! (As a consolation, I made a lot of Bay Ridgers happy!) Murphy Tower told me and my partner they had major delays in R service due to a sick customer on board a train at City Hall. This was a funny reminder of the time (incidentally on the M) my train was diverted to Coney Island via the N (Sea Beach) line to make up for a major gap in N service, arrived in C.I. on the W platform, then instead of an expected (and prayed for) deadhead, we had to go back in service, light to Bay Parkway, and in service from there. Man when the railroad goes to hell, it makes for some rather funny service changes!!
That reminds me of the Q train I rode in February 2001 that was rerouted due to a stabbing at Grand. From W4, it stopped at Delancey and Jay, and then made all stops along the F to Kings Highway. (The C/R was announcing Avenue X all the way down until we came in on the middle track at KH.) Then it went light through the yard and back up the Brighton. The D train behind it made the same reroute, but it appeared to have gone light the whole way (or at least part of the way -- by KH, it had no passengers). At the time, there were no R-32's on the F, so I glued myself to the railfan window.
Wow, that is awesome, and you've got pictures too!
I don't ride the subway without a camera anymore. Who knows when something photo-worthy will occur?
A homecoming of sorts for both the slant R-40s AND the D.
Just spoke to a LIRR engineer friend of mine tonight. He went to Hillside Facility to check out the new M-7's. Here are some tidbits:
1) There are now four pairs or eight M-7's on the property.
2) The cars are complete with the exception of seating. One or two cars have 50 gallon drums filled with water to simulate a fully loaded car.
3) Cab features two computer screens and a "joystick" type controller, unlike the old type on the M-1/3. Not sure if they are similar to the R-142 or R-143.
4) The M-7's are being tested at night, much like the M-3's when they were new. Which branches or how many cars being tested is not known.
5) He was told by a Bombardier rep that they are performing well since they worked out the bugs.
6) Revenue testing with passengers is due this October.
7) The large picture window and body contour does look similar to the Acela cars.
8) The fiberglass front is beefed up much better than the M-1/3's. The reason is improved collision posts.
Bill "Newkirk"
Dammit Bill, TAKE US A PICTURE!
-Hank :)
>>Dammit Bill, TAKE US A PICTURE!
-Hank :)<<
I'm not a LIRR employee, so I guess I'm not welcome at Hillside Facility !
Bill "Newkirk"
anyone up for shooting from a passing train?
I think the phrase "shooting from a passing train" is not one that should be used in the post 9/11 era. How about "taking pictures from a passing train?"
okay, then. How about we pretend we speak a foreign language, get off at hillside, saying we thought it was brentwood, and "take pictures" while they tell us that we're not at brentwood
Picture of what, the guy he talked to??
Come on Andee...
HUH?.
Peace,
ANDEE
I heard a rumor that there would be less seating in the M-7s..is this true?
>>I heard a rumor that there would be less seating in the M-7s..is this true?<<
Yes, this due to larger ADA lavatory.
Bill "Newkirk"
Will we ever see a day when the new M-7s are used together with the DMs?...like in the old days when the Owl-eyed MUs went with some the of old double-deckers on some runs....
>>Will we ever see a day when the new M-7s are used together with the DMs?...like in the old days when the Owl-eyed MUs went with some the of old double-deckers on some runs<<
Nope, the M-7's will run separate from any diesel equipment.
Bill "Newkirk"
The current issue of "The Bulletin" of the New York Division ERA list the work cars of the TA. According to the list five R-17s are in work service;
6813 as DCR-06 Continuos Welded Rail Handling Car
6850 as DCR-07 ditto
6835 as P6835 Reach Car
6899 as P6899 ditto
6762 as RD 339 Rider Car.
Of course there is 6609 at the museum.
Does anyone known if there are any other R-17s on the property?
Larry,RedbirdR33
6895 is currently stored at Concourse Yard. This former work car is slated for preservation.
Combine that with Car 6688 at BERA, means there should be 8 surviving R-17s left, whether in or out of TA property.
-Stef
enough for a future museum train ???
Unfortunately not. 6688 is somewhere in CT, while 6895 has yet to be restored. Meanwhile, the remaining cars are in work service. Those in work service have been demotored and cosmetically altered. In other words, the workhorses lack certain items such as doors, rollsigns, etc.
We may not see a solid R-17 consist, but I hope we'll see a mixture of modern cars running together for an excursion (R-12/14/15, so on).
-Stef
>>Unfortunately not. 6688 is somewhere in CT, <<
LOL
Is that what you tell people when you go there. You are going somewhere in CT?
A career in advertising is not advised. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Yep! I want her existence to be kept secret..... Gotta keep all that hot and foamy stuff off. She's mine!
TOP SECRET!
-Stef
Steffie's train! LOL. Ya know, bro ... there's COUNSELING available for cheep for your obsession ... it's called a Holy Ronan Empire Eagle Biweekly Shytteth. :)
Wanna bet you'll say "All mine! ALL MINE!!!" when you see 1689?:-)
Golly, do we have to have a hoard of wipers that day?
;-) Sparky
Nah, remember - I used to work those. All I'll think about if I board her is how glad I am that I don't do that anymore. You get over foaminess after you collect a few MTA checks and spend time in a few screw rooms. :)
Heh. I'm ALWAYS willing to share ... sure I miss the old girls and would love to give 1689 a hug. But I *do* have a LIFE. :)
Not a good idea...if you want the Branford Museum to survive, you should promote it as much as possible.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks Andee,
This is the type of "Guardianship" which hinders instead aiding
the preservation movement. We had some healty posts for/and against
the organization. Now we get critiqued by one of our own with
incessive greediness. Nough said, this is a public forum.
:-) Sparky
John:
As I said to Andee, this was meant to be a joke. I certainly can't funnel the kind of money BERA needs to survive. Without the membership, BERA wouldn't be here for all to enjoy.
-Stef
Was there, paid enterance fee.
I know. It was intended as a joke. It will be up to membership to keep Branford going.
-Stef
Thanks Stef: Thats what I was looking for.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Stef,
Without trying to sound antagonistic, pleeze be more selective on your verbiage,
more so on a public forum, such as "SubTalk". We received enough negative verbosity from a former member, after my starting the tread referencing "Guardianship". It is a team effort to accomplish what we do, with the minor monetary input. The Branford "laborers of love", do much with little, so let's stow the negatories. Let's accentuate the positives, even if the adverse were meant
to be "jovial".
;-) Sparky
John, hate to chide in here but I think Stef's kidding around should have been obvious to anyone except a politician. I'd hate to think that people aren't permitted a sense of humor and it seemed QUITE clear that Stef was kidding around. On the other hand, the comments by that other adversarial person demonstrated quite clearly a complete lack of a sense of humor. I'd like to think that Branford is a fun place once the work's done, and I doubt anybody that Branford would WANT as a member would have taken it the wrong way. Just my two cents.
People like Thurston, Stef, Dougie and others are the reason WHY I would want to join.
>>>People like Thurston, Stef, Dougie ....<<
These people are the reason I did join, 2 years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
Kevin, John/Sparky does join us frequently after hours. We are working on his since of humor < G >
One of great pleasures of the place is the get togathers after a day in the shop, or operating.
Mr rt__:^)
Heh. Sure hope it's an authorized modification. That's why, if I ever get out from under the workload here and the economy turns around a little so I have some pocket change leftover, your place is the one for me. Sure there's a few more arnines further up the coast, but YOU GUYS and Branford has always struck me as a place where you can get serious AND have fun too. I guess my priorities (having some fun) are a bit different from what you'll find elsewhere ...
I understand that R-22 7441 as RD-344 is in service on Staten Island as a de-icer car. Can anyone confirm this?
Larry,RedbirdR33
what cars will replace 1369 in its consist?
A single R62A?
A leftover car from the Union square wreck?
An R110A?
or did they actually manage to repair 1369(i really doubt this)
1369 is still at Concourse Yard and is a total loss. What will replace 1369? I've heard of Car 1436 as a possibility, but I don't think anything has occurred as of yet.
-Stef
Are there some other unused leftovers from the Union Square wreck that are in usable condition?
#3 West End Jeff
There's always 1909...
-Hank
Car #1909 doesn't look to be in very good shape. As a matter of fact it is fit for the scrapyard.
#3 West End Jeff
Uh oh. The TA logo needs to be replaced with the new one.
They should have pulled the bonnet and anticlimber off of #1909 and held it as spare, #1370 or #1436 could have used it.
wayne
#1436, the fifth car, suffered the least amount of damage of any of the first five cars in the train. It was smushed at the head end, its bonnet and anticlimber need replacement. The other four (#1437,1439,1440,1435) are lost.
wayne
Is this 1369? The silver one in the back :) (photo taken at Concourse Yard a few weeks ago...)
That's the one! It's a total loss.
-Stef
1369's companions are at 207th Street.
-Stef
Is 1370 going to be repaired or is that going to be a goner too?
#1305 4 Lexington Ave Express
We'll see.
1436 (from Union Square) should be the only spare Kawasaki Car available to be put into 1366-70. If you have no spares, you won't be able to make up another 5 Car Train. 1368 and 1370 have varying degrees of damage, probably not life threatening. The shop can probably fabricate a new end for 1370. I believe they have a spare end from 1435, lying aorund in 207th St. I seem to recall a picture of 1435 minus an end from last year, going to the scrap heap. The car's end may still survive.
I remember during my time I was training for the Station Agent's position at 207th St about 18 months ago, an R-62(A) was in the shop. The end of the car was removed, but I was unable to identify it. Perhaps it was 1370, or one of the cars that went to scrap? I don't know for sure.
-Stef
what were the conditions of 1435, and 1436 pre scrapping?
what was the condition of...
actually...
which cars were damaged and haw, and to what extent(1431-1440, and 1366-1370)
Check the R-62 roster notes (http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r62.html).
One typo, 1436 is not scrapped.
-Stef
so which will be the lead unit, 1436, or 1370?
Just for the sake of preserving the configuration of Kawasaki R-62s, I'd be inclined to say 1370 would be the lead. You'd get 1366-67-68-1436-70.
-Stef
Of course, they could always renumber the car like they did to R32 #3668.
wayne
>>1368 and 1370 have varying degrees of damage, probably not life threatening.<<
A bent frame may put an end to them for sure.
Bill "Newkirk"
Correct, Bill - if they don't tram correctly then they're done for.
That is one reason why R40M #4461 is now R40 #4260. The hit was so perfect that her frame stayed straight, only the end was demolished.
wayne
Ouch! Someone sat on his hat! They can probably fix that. I've seen worse nose jobs completed successfully - R40M #4501, R42 #4612, R42 #4918 all come to mind.
wayne
Thanks for the confirmation.
Oh. My. Goodness. We've finally found out where the wormhole from 76th St. leads to--Concourse Yard! That's how come so many different parts of the fleet end up being sighted at 76th!!
If it's pointing the right way, maybe we can now propose a dual-peak-direction 8th Ave. Express Rush Hour pick! South on the A to 76th St, then relay through Track 9 3/4 in Concourse Yard, then south on the D! Reverse directions PM!
Now if only we could route it through the Chrystie St. Cut and Lower 42nd....
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.2 NOW AVAILABLE!
The magic bumper block! You've found it! Sir Topham Hat will be MOST impressed. :)
What happened to Car 1369?
- Lyle Goldman
Fordham Rd collision during the Subway Series two years ago. This car was not in service and was going to the wash.......
could the end of 1369 that does not go to 1436 be put onto 1370? or are there even worse problems with 1370 that would make it not repairable
could it get the B end of an R142?
any new news on these cars(repairs, scrapping, etc.)
None that I know of.
#3 West End Jeff
So...
Any new news about this?
Has any repair work been done on 1368,1370,or 1436?
1436 is laid up in 207th yard. I doubt very much that they would attempt to repair it anytime soon.
Here's some news items from 1962.
February 1- IND Rockaway Shuttles officially begin carrying "HH
Fulton Street Local" signs.
February 4- IRT World's Fair cars appear on the 3 Avenue El.
March 28- First Redbirds arrive by barge, R-29s. (Didn't think I'd forget this one?)
April 5- Fire at SIRTRY Clifton Shops destroys seven MUE-1 cars.
April 21- Saturday #1 Brighton Express service discontinued.
September 1- The Port of New York Authority takes over the Hudson
Hudson Rapid Tubes.
September 4- IRT #6 increased to 9 cars.
October 1- IRT R-types placed in service on #4 for the first time.
October 7 -Sunday, for the first time all IRT service is provided by new cars except for the 3 Avenue El.
November 1-IRT #7 begins using 10 car trains.40 R-17s from the 6500-6549 group assigned to Flushing Line.
November 15-Lower Level at 59 St-Lexington Av opens.
November 15- first R-33 Redbirds in service on the IRT #1. (Didn't miss this one either)
November 28- Crane car 20158 ex BMT 3055 falls from the Culver El at West 6 Street and Sheepshead Bay Road killing three men.
December 7- Water main break at 18 Street and 6 Avenue halts all IND service between 34 St-6 Av and West 4 Street. Emergency re-route include the return of the "C" Concourse express for the first time in about ten years and the only operation of the "DD" 6 Avenue Local. (which actually ran via 8 Avenue.)
Larry,RedbirdR33
March 28- First Redbirds arrive by barge, R-29s.
While the R-29s were probably the first cars initially delivered in a bright "fire engine" red livery, the R-15s and R-17s were painted red (more of a maroon color) at the factory, also.
-- Ed Sachs
CNN is now reporting that Amtrak and the Transportation Dept have announced that they have reached a tentative agreement to fund Amtrak throught their upcoming $200M cash need.
No details yet, but both Minetta and Amtrak Chairman Smith seem to think it's a done deal.
I was beginning to think that some of the folks around here were hoping for a shutdown so they could toss a few additional political barbs around...
CG
DLG said it best "I was hired to run a railroad, not close it".
One day, maybe everyone on the right will wake up and smell the coffee and see that Amtrak is a viable, and needed alternative to cars/highways/airplanes.
Just think, if SOME of the dollars that are earmarked for the Interstate system, or any other road project were sent to Amtrak....
Of course, it's just a Band-Aid measure that merely postpones the inevitable. Sooner or later, the powers-that-be are going to have to decide what sort of national passenger rail system this country wants. Until that happens, Amtrak will continue to limp along on its current course. As it is now, some politicians won't let it live, while others won't let it die. So they keep it on life support just long enough to avert disaster, while avoiding any hard choices that need to be made. What's missing here is some real leadership.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Any bailout now just prolongs a bigger mess later.
As it stands, Amtrak won't be able to operate after october with the monety that's been asked for.
Having a shutdown now is bad. Having one right at the holiday season? forget it.
Passenger rail advocates have to realize that letting Amtrak shutdown is really the best thing at this point, and nit's best to get it overwith NOW, rather than turn it into a real mess october or november.
Because, if there's a bailout now, a few months from now, people are going to say "We just bailed you out! Now, you want to pull the same shit again and get more money?!?"
Let amtrak stop, and pickup the pieces. It's like reinstalling Windows on a computer Vs trying to salvage things weith your screwed installation.
Sometimes, the best way to fix things is to start fresh.
Actually October will be the PERFECT time for Amtrak to go on the ground. It'll take congress with it and will occur RIGHT in the midst of the American electorate's attenion span of two weeks. We can wait. :)
Which will acomplish what?
Why does everyone feel the best policy for passenger rail in the US is to limp from funding crissis to funding crissis.
Amtrak is broken, it does not work, it can't, by design, work because it took over a system that was obsolete and changed nothing.
If Amtrak is the best this country can come up with, maybe the answer here is we really don't need intercity rail in the US afterall. I think we do, but I think we need a system that's vastly different from Amtrak in every way.
Amtrak's ridership has been moving towards corridors for decades, and away from long distance, yet Amtrak hasn't. They're the classic case of an organization that refuses to respond to the market, and as a result, has been unable to grow, and is effectively losing marketshare to other modes. I can't feel sorry for an organization that refuses to listen to it's customers, and it's potential customers.
Rail is .2% of intercity passenger trips in the US. There's a gigantic, untapped market for it, if it's done right. People in the US are receptive to rail, if it's done in a way they can use. The trouble is, Amtrak advocacy inevitably means long distance advocacy, and the reasond given are laughable at best, and only cover up the nostalgia kick that LD advocates want.
Long Distance does not reduce pollyution - it doesn't move a significant number of cars off the highways.
It doesn't provide regional transportation, as the average speeds are too low and frequencies too low.
It's not cost effective. In fact, it's the exact opposite.
Increasing speeds of LD trains to 110mph is unrealistic, and doesn't solve the basic problems of LD's slow average speed anyway (simply put, long distance trains can't accelerate fast enough to maintain a high average speed after clearing a station stop or speed restriction). It's a lot of money to provide a very low increase in average speeds (realize, even the Acela averages only 75mph below NY, despite a 135mph top speed). It will only exaggerate dispatching problems, and increase maintenance costs even more, thus pissing off freight RRs.
The turnaround time for LD trains is abonimably low, thus there's very poor equipment utilization.
It's often 10times faster to fly, and the same cost. This alone is explination as to why it can't compete.
Talk of 200+ mph long distance routes and maglev are pathetic. Neither technology is even approaching viability, and wouldn't solve most of the basic problems anyway.
IMHO, the best way to improve rail, with by far the best 'bang per buck', is to focus on regional corridors. I would propose the following:
For trunk lines like the NEC, and short stubs off it, electrify. Now. Even with no other improvements, electrification will improve average speeds - and attract passengers and attention. The higher acceleration, combined with less equipment needed, will also reduce long term equipment costs. Let's stop pretending we can't afford it and look for ways to make it happen - less expensive systems and equipment (a standard US electric locomotive or two, that could be ordered in bulk, would help here). Let's look at partnerships - perhaps sharing RR ROWs with electric companies, etc? Let's stop saying we can't, and start saying we can
For regional lines that are less traveled, let's go to a Flexiliner-type DMU. Something that can be inexpensive, practical, high performance, and comfortable. We've got an auto industry that's specialists in this. Once again - let's look for partnerships and come up with a standard, high performance design. Let's make it FRA compliant, but light enough to run in Europe. Let's sell it to Europe, and mass produce it. Let's make a real, world class product.
For travel between big cities and regions, let's make a real high speed train. Let's see how we can get dedicated ROWs, and mix with freight RRs here. The Germans do it, we can do it on the NEC. Why not do it out west, too?
For certain city pairs, let's break the traditional LD model, and go to a "train plus hotel" model. A train you board in the evenig at one city, and get off at a second city in the morning. Basically, a point to point LD train. People can sleep while they travel.
For all lines - let's stop looking at absolute top speed. Let's get rid of those long dwell times, poorly run CTC meets, and 15mph sections. let's go for high acceleration - if we can get up to operating spee fast, we can improve our average speed a lot.
Let's have a programmed system for improvement. When a line's started, let's say after ridership hits a certain point, we electrify it, and as ridership grows, we keep increasing frequency. Let's stop adding cars and start adding trains. Sure two 4 car trains move as many as one 8 car train, but two 4 car trains means there's 2 times as many trains to choose from for the potential passenger.
Let's turn Amtrak into a service for co-ordinating things. When you want to travel from, Hartford to Philly, let's make it so you call Amtrak, plan your route, then pickup tickets for all the trsains you'll need to take, even commuter, regardless of who runs them. Let's have Amtrak work with states to set up the various types of services, and then chose and handle whatever operators are needed. Make Amtrak less of a RR, and more of a department of passenger trains - who has the dual roles of maintaining safety, and promoting passenger rail. let's have Amtrak standardize rail equipment and electrification to make sure everything's compatible, and make them a supermarket for equipment that any operator can go to to get a no hassle, government approved, ready to run train, and the route access they want.
This is how the FAA got so big.
Let's get the politicians out o the loop. As long as we're fighting over who's train gets cut and who gets the new equipment, we're going to be in a rut. Let's put the market in control of what we need. There's a big market for rail. People like trains, they really do. look at the successes that light rail has been consistently scoring.
Look at the growth of commuter rail.
Let's learn from everyone else. Copy the successes, avoid failures. Let's focus on bang per buck, and stop looking at absolute cost. Let's stop pretending that money fixes everything, and that running lots trains that people don't want will grow ridership.
United doesn't fly 747s between Harttford and Nashville. There's nob demand for it. Why would anyone think this would work for Amtrak?
But most of all - lets do something - instead of just propping up a broken system.
Hmm. I might have to save a distrubute this one. Oh well....
I won't argue with your concepts or your motivation. Bear in mind that I'm someone who worked in the midst of the WORST days of the subway system. I live UPSTATE ... we do a LOT of "settling" up here as we did in the city in the 70's ... while Nirvana is a wonderful place, I'll take a cardboard box under a bridge abutment rather than nothing at all.
Amtrak may indeed be broken, but it's all we've got. I'll TAKE it. Now if somehow we can do better, great. I'm all for it and willing to chip in to pay for it. But I'd rather a limping train than none at ALL. There's many areas in this country (particularly upstate) that would make many a third world toilet look pretty damned good. We'll take what we have, it's better than nothing.
Philip,
Your long detailed post is a breath of fresh air compared to all the politcally charged crap on this subject in recent days. Amtrak needs reorganizing so it can grow, not stagnate. With the exception of electrification from New Haven and Boston and the Acela high speed trainsets, Amrak is bascially 1971 when it's 2002 out there.
Has anyone out there looked at Amtrak's occassional train wrecks that have involved injuries and death ? It seems every month there is a train wreck at an unguraded crossing in the south with passenger cars strewn about. Doesn't this cost Amtrak in lawsuits and destroyed equipment ? Could Amtrak's insurance premiums be sky high, and who's paying for it ?
Amtrak was a band aid solution from the beginning and it's some 31 years later and the same band aid needs replacing. If we can reinvent the venerable trolley and have it emerge as light rail, why can't we reinvent intercity rail. And competeing with the airlines for long distance, that's great if you're retired with time on your hands and want to see this country at ground level at a leisurely pace.
In closing, Train Dude was right. It's now Thursday and Amtrak is still running and the commuter railroads sharing Amtrak's stations and ROW are still running too. The chicken little liberals who screamed bloody murder that the worst would happen are silent. Also spare me these "big oil", "Bush bashing" comments.
Reinvent Amtrak, that's my 3 cents.
Bill "Newkirk"
Phillip:
When will you get it ? Killing LD trains will not accomplish any corridor development. Any when will you get over you endpoint mentality ? Most Amtrak LD intermediate stations are nowhere near an airport. Most have pretty high low-factors, and few are railfans. The mere $250 million a year saved will be taken and given to the highway department, not HSR, where it will never be seen again. INTEREST ON DEBT from CAPITAL is their problem now, and it wasn't the LD trains that incurred it because little capital was spent on them. LD trains still have far better equipment utilization than even commuter trains, most of which are idle non-rush hour.
Amtrak's ridership has been moving towards corridors for decades, and away from long distance, yet Amtrak hasn't.
Yeah, percentage wise. Amtrak Long Distance trains quite run near capacity and the mail/express bussiness has been steadly growing. Just because the market is smaller dosen't mean it shoudln't be served. Amtrak provides a needed travel alternative to B and C list cities that would normaly only be served by bus service. As long as the train is hauling stuff, LD trains on B and C list corridors can operate with a minimum amount of loss, especially if Amtrak dosen't have an A list corridor quality RoW to maintain. The more people who are exposed to Amtrak, the more potential customers and rail advocates there will be. If you do try to concentrate a new Amtrak is what few corridors exist in this country even fewer people would want to support this new Amtrak cause it dosen't even remotely serve them. Hense no bucks from Washington, no HSR corridors, no rail travel at all.
Increasing speeds of LD trains to 110mph is unrealistic, and doesn't solve the basic problems of LD's slow average speed anyway (simply put, long distance trains can't accelerate fast enough to maintain a high average speed after clearing a station stop or speed restriction).
Trains compare very well to Bus travel. Trains don't have to make lengthy bathroom and meal stops. The Peter Pan bus I use from Middletown to New Haven takes 50 minutes to go like 35 miles. If people are willing to take busses they can be willing to ride on trains.
It's often 10 times faster to fly, and the same cost. This alone is explination as to why it can't compete.
While the time in the air can be 10 times faster, air travel has incredible high fixed costs. You need to get too and from the airport, 1.5 hours, you need to clear security, 1.5 hours, you need to get their early in general to check in, 1 hour and you probably average 1.25 hours per trip in some sort of delay and finally you need to get your luggage and get out of the airport, 45 minutes. You're spending at least 6 hours PER TRIP in activities that most people consider pure torture. Do you prefer waiting in an airport line to riding in a slow train? Do you prefer driving around in airport traffic to riding in a slow train? Do you prefer sitting on the taxiway in a seat that cutting off your circulation to riding in a slow train? Do you prefer getting your nail clippers confiscated and providing 2 forms of photo ID to riding in a slow train? Woudln't it be nicer just to get on a train, go to sleep in a nice big comfey seat or bed and wake up at your destination? Its like paying for coach and getting first class.
Let's look at partnerships - perhaps sharing RR ROWs with electric companies, etc?
Trains don't use enough power to get a power company kick in hundreds of millions for electrifacation.
Let's stop saying we can't, and start saying we can
Saying "I can" dosen't get me a job, a merry Christmas or money to appear on trees.
Let's sell it to Europe, and mass produce it. Let's make a real, world class product.
We've made a world class product, they are called freight locomoives and freight cars. Regarding passenger stuff, every single American car builder has gone bankrupt or has exited the market. Every non-RR firm that tried to get back into the market (Like Boeing Vertol) failed and then exited the market. No American firm will ever build rail vehicles again. To get your "wonder vehicle" built you will need some sort of investment. Due to the recent events in the capital markets, few Americans are still stupid enough to throw their money away like that.
For travel between big cities and regions, let's make a real high speed train. Let's see how we can get dedicated ROWs, and mix with freight RRs here. The Germans do it, we can do it on the NEC. Why not do it out west, too?
Land in corridors is WAY too expensive. Freeways are built in swamps, on hills and in other cheap land that is completely unsuitable to rail travel. If you want the RoW on the best land, the land will be to expensive. If you build it on the crappy land, the construction costs will be too expensive. In Europe they don't have qualms about siezing the land and saying Fuck Off to the owners.
For certain city pairs, let's break the traditional LD model, and go to a "train plus hotel" model. A train you board in the evenig at one city, and get off at a second city in the morning. Basically, a point to point LD train. People can sleep while they travel.
That is the traditional LD model. Where have you been? HAve you ever ridden Amtrak? Point to point makes little sence as for by adding stops you can increase patronage more than proportionally for a small marginal time cost. Amtrak has learned this w/ the non-stop ACLEA expresses. They saved like 5 minutes, but went out 1/3 full. You need to learn that most travel trips are not point A to point B. They are either "around Point A" to "around Point B" or "point C to Points A or B". These are the markets that should be served as well.
Let's get rid of those long dwell times
No problem there. They need to get station dwell times down to PRR level. The problem is that (I heard this Re: SEPTA), that if you hurry people along, they think you're rude and then bitch and complain.
poorly run CTC meets
Freight railroads need incentives to put Amtrak ahead of their own trains. You can turn Amtrak trains into RR freight carriers (like the NS Pennsylvanian) or impose high statuatory lateness penalties.
but two 4 car trains means there's 2 times as many trains to choose from for the potential passenger.
Two 4 car trains cost about 3-4 times as much. You need at least 3 engineers and three conductors and three snack bar staffers, etc, etc to cover all the shift-days. All these employees have benefits and retirement programmes that cost shitloads of money. You're a fan of profitability, this is not the way to do it.
Let's get the politicians out o the loop. As long as we're fighting over who's train gets cut and who gets the new equipment, we're going to be in a rut.
As long as rail travel needs government funding politicians will be very much in the loop.
Let's put the market in control of what we need.
Like in England? Where the national infrastructure company went bankrupt? Where service quality has reached record lows and safety is like job 3 or 4?
There's a big market for rail.
There is a market, but market demand is determined by price. The natural market price is far too high for anyone to demand the service.
People like trains, they really do. look at the successes that light rail has been consistently scoring.
Light rail is a poor excuse for a subway system. LR's systems are only built cause the public is fed up with congestion, but there ain't enough cash to really solve the problem.
Look at the growth of commuter rail.
It still ain't profitable.
I think you need to come and ride Amtrak for yourself. I am planning a Lake Shore Limited trip w/ Lexcie in August. Come see how popular the LD trains are and what sort of unique and valuable service they provide.
"Freeways are built in swamps, on hills and in other cheap land that is completely unsuitable to rail travel. "
Not So! Rail ROWs would mostly be elevated along such ROWsperhaps only a few feet in some areas, higher in others. This needs to be so that the snow will blow off of the ROWs and keep the line clear.
"In Europe they don't have qualms about siezing the land and saying Fuck Off to the owners."
Europe has a long history of this That is all that midevil kings ever did.
People like trains, they really do. look at the successes that light rail has been consistently scoring.
Light rail is a poor excuse for a subway system. LR's systems are only built cause the public is fed up with congestion, but there ain't enough cash to really solve the problem.
Nope. Light rail systems are generally built in cities that don't have the population and/or density to support a subway system. Or do you think cities like Sacramento, Portland and Dallas really could support subway systems?
Mvh Tim
Portland and Dallas yes.
I've never been to Portland, but I'd have to say that Dallas lacks the densities that a subway requires, which really are extraordinarily high (by US standards) if you want the subway to be really effective, rather than a prestige-raising waste of $$$$$.
Mvh Tim
An October shutdown is almost ideally timed for the November election. As I've posted before, it would badly hurt certain Congressional Republicans, particularly those in LI and NJ; it certainly would hurt Pataki.
This is an agony for the Republicans, and the Democrats are not going to make it easy for them.
There's isn't going to be a fresh start. If Amtrak goes there won't be anything beyond glorified commuter travel in the country, ever.
Here's the Washington Post story on the agreement.
Basically, this year's game of chicken between Amtrak and the current government de jeur is over for now, but will pick right back up again in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, etc., until everyone in Washington finally decides to come up with a new plan to replace the 1971 formula that no one on the planet thinks is viable in the long run.
The news I got was that Amtrak is covered until the end of the year.
The objectives of the agreement are.
Improve Amtrak's financial discipline and performance.
Make Amtrak's financial and operating performance transparent to the public.
Provide federal policymakers with a better understanding of Amtrak's long-term assets and liabilities, and its cost control and revenue options."
That sounds reasonable for a start.
*IF* Followed by goals for structured GROWTH!
Elias
I was riding 5090 at the front end of a SB W train late this morning. A bunch of kids got on and proceeded to kick out a storm door window (and drop it on the street below), smash two of the side door windows, and unsuccessfully attempt to kick open the unused cab. (I wasn't paying close attention -- I probably would have gotten myself thrown out the missing window had I made myself obviously aware of what was going on -- but I think one person did all the kicking.)
I got off at Bay 50th and told the T/O, who promised to do something at Stillwell.
How much did this vandalism cost us riders/taxpayers? I assume the train was taken out of service at Stillwell.
yooo,those kids high on marijuna or wtf!? i hope they get thrown in prison for life for doing that stupid crap.i wonder who the hell they thought they were...bunch of jackasses is all they were.
YEs i agree, prison for life is a proper punishment for Subway vandalism such as this, (sarcasm levels off the charts) on another note Ive seen plenty of trains with windows kicked out and not having been taken out of service. I also heard of stories from 70s where 46s and 44s ran without windows, anyone have stories to share about that?
Duuuuude, I think there is a difference between painting some pretty artwork inside a dark tunnel and kicking out a glass window in a transit vehicle and having the window fall to the ground where it may strike and seriously injure someone. If the glass struck someone, I'd say give him 20 years in the slammer. If it didn't, give him 6 months and a $1000 fine.
i say make him fix the thing THEN throw em in jail for life
Couldn't we cruely punish him by kicking out his eyes? :D
Haven't you sickos heard of the Eighth Amendment?
Any amendment can be over turned. Look at prohibition.
Do you really expect 290 representatives, 67 senators and the majority of the members of the legislatures and the governors of 38 states to agree to repeal one of the amendments of the BILL OF RIGHTS?
Maybe the Second Amendment (which I believe must stay) could go, but nobody in their right mind would be in favor of cruel and unusual punishment.
Oh, I know you're in favor of such punishment and you're in your right mind, but your right mind is invariably wrong.
It legally can happen. Though it is near immpossable.
Why would you WANT it to happen?
I wouldn't.
Ahh, we still have a death penalty in this country; the vast majority of developed nations have done away with that. So I think that there is still significant support in this country for cruel and unusual punishment. I don't agree with it, but is it still here.
So I think that there is still significant support in this country for cruel and unusual punishment.
That's only if you consider putting murders to death to be cruel and unusual.
Vengeance is as much a part of human nature as eating and sleeping.
To be very honest, when I hear of a particularly henious murder (like the killings at Wendy's in 2000 and the Carnigie Deli last year), a part of me is glad the death penality is on the books. My biggest problem with the death penality is that it is irreversable. Putting one innocent person to death is too high a price to pay, in my estimation. We have seen in the past few years more than one or two isolated cases of inmates on death row being RELEASED outright, when new technology such as DNA has proven them innocent! Research has also shown that things we have taken for granted as fool proof, such as eye witness testimony, are not as fool proof as we thought. Add in the class and race bias inherent to the criminal justice system in general, and we have a situation where the only question is WHEN an innocent person will be killed by the state in the name of justice, not IF (and that is assuming it has not already happened). I read an article on the death penalty a few years ago that brought to light some shocking facts. In some southern states, the legal cousel provided to indigent defendents is woefully inadequate. In Mississppi, the state does not even provide a regular public defender in all murder cases. The court will appoint an attorney (there is no requirement he or she has ANY experience in handling capital cases) and that appointed attorney is paid a flat fee of $1000. The $1000 includes all expenses such as for an investigator or lab work. And this is for a case where a person's life is on the line.
I won't even get into the statistics that show the chance of having the death penalty imposed is significantly higher if the defendant is a minority and the victim is white.
So I guess it is not so much that I feel the death penalty is cruel and unusual, but the way it is applied most certainly is. And I seriously doubt that that fault can ever be overcome.
There was a Black Female FBI something that did those DNA tests. Out of 60 people convicted under her tests, 20 walked free when a corperate executive with alot of money proved her wrong by send a sample to the lab secretly that was known to not match with another sample sent, but when she did it it came back positve. 4 people died because of her. The DA shouldn't get extra money because someone was convicted.
I was not aware of that situation, but it certainly goes to support my point. I would think it safe to say those 4 people were subjected to cruel and unusual punishment.
Also, has anyone given any thought to the value of the 3rd Amendment?
It might not be very useful, but it shouldn't be repealed.
I think it's good that people aren't required to quarter soldiers.
Good catch, I'm sure not too many people know what the 3rd Amendment is about. Actually I agree that while not overly relevent, it has an excellent principle behind it.
In fact, I would venture to say that it served its' purpose well; so well that the concept of quartering solidiers is a non-issue today. But apparently it was a practice that was used (abused?) at the time of the founding fathers. Hence the existence of the third amendment.
Well today they could use it to seize your property for "saftey concerns" of you with the soliders.
AP, it was just a joke. That's why I specifically said "cruelly punish."
It's plastic, not glass.
sure would add a whole new level of meaning to "keep your arms inside the vehicle at all times"
No, they were on the "Last Day Of School".
I would just take out a gun. Shoot them in the legs and call the cops. But there is a pesky concealed wepons law in NYS.
That's the problem with the kids today. They don't know that if you need to let out some agression, you get some booze and women and trash a hotel room. Subway cars are actually *useful*, unlike overpriced hotel rooms.
On a similar note, there were two guys riding in between cars on my northbound 1 train yesterday. I think they were also smoking. I was hoping the train would go into emergency... As we passed through one station, I saw an MTA t/o or c/r on the opposite platform and was sure he'd see the hooligans but he turned the other way and didn't see them :(
I've seen people smoke on 3 trains between cars. At least they have the courtesy to do it "outside."
Maybe you should have pulled the emergency brake? (:-)
- Lyle Goldman
Considering somebody could've gotten hurt, I hope those kids spend some hard time behind bars, and be forced to the fix the damage.
That sounds like a frightening experience.
Thats why I never go into Bronx.
It happened in Brooklyn on a W train.
Peace,
ANDEE
But I would expect Bronx to be a more dangerous place than Brooklyn.
But I would expect your brain to be less populated than Antarctica.
"But I would expect Bronx to be a more dangerous place than Brooklyn."
Has someone been using your head for 2nd base. Your thought processes make me believe the base-runners have been sliding hard and often.
I had made references in the past referring to Toronto as a "civilized" city as opposed to New York. Is there anyone out there from Toronto who has seen anything on the TTC subway similar to what Mr. Greenberger has described? Just curious to know if my assesment is valid.
One time I saw a kid that rapped the window on a "Redbird" so hard that he cracked it, and the window happened to be RIGHT BEHIND MY HEAD!! This happened back in early 1995 on the "2" I believe.
#3 West End Jeff
So you were close to the front of the train to be able to get to the T/O? What could the T/O possibly do to punish them? A fine?
This all took place in the lead car. I didn't want to knock on the T/O's door and possibly get myself turned into the battering ram (and I also didn't want the train to be taken out of service before I reached my destination), so I waited until I got off and informed the T/O from the platform.
I'm sure he heard it all; I don't know if he had any idea of the extent of the damage.
Perhaps the guy who did the damage was fined, if he could be identified. I was more concerned with the condition of the car -- it should not have continued in service past Stillwell.
The T/O could call the COPS to lay the smack down!
Video cameras with face-print tech.
If I were T/O, I'd stop the train right between stations so that they can't go anywhere and have police waiting at the very next station as we pull in. I know it's probably not allowed to stop a train in service, but these kids were disturbing riders, vandalizing, etc.
Here's a Pic of a R-62 connected to a redbird, How is this possible???
Easy. Couple, connect some cables and valves, make sure the brakes work through the connection, done.
I thought they had different Traction Systems and Different Couplers to make it impossible to connect those 2.
All the IRT cars prior to the R110A have the same coupler, in fact, with the exception of the R44/46, all subway cars built between the R1 and the R68 have the same coupler. Some differences exist in the electrical portions, but the important connection, the brakes, are identical in all.
-Hank
And all cars from the R-10 to the R-68 not counting the R-44/R-46 can interoperate.
The R-1s to R-9s can operate with each other, but not with the later cars.
Lets not forget the coupler adapter on every cab car of the R142/R142A's so at least they can couple (not operate) to anything other than the R110A.
The only exception to this being car #1575, the experimental R10 (originally an R-7A) which now resides in the transit museum.
1575 remained an R-7A from a mechanical and electrical standpoint, and could only run with other R-1/9s. Naturally it stuck out like a sore thumb in a consist.
44's and 46's can be added iron to iron only.
An R62 is a glorified R22, so there's no reason why not. The door switches may differ, but little else.
Was that train in passenger service?
- Lyle Goldman
Actually I think that was in the Yard. I got it from NYCsubway.org.
It still is in CIY.
What is the Maximum Train Capacity of Queens Boulevard? Me and Zman are debating how good the V line is against the Straphangers Campaign, so I would like to see the Capacity of tph that Queens Boulevard Can handle.
I'm pretty sure it is 30TPH for the local track and the same for the express, 60TPH total. Right now, the local track is underused.
Cleaning out the trains at 71st makes the local capacity less.
Why do they clean trains at Continental? It seems to me like a waste of time when both services that terminate there (weekdays) have perfectly good southern terminals that don't require relaying and have sufficiently low tph that cleaning the trains wouldn't affect the schedule.
Dan
because some people would start to live on the trains, we would not find the bodies until they smell, the train is not a drunk tank, when you change ends and run into them some of the get very violent, sometimes you get held in the relay a long time, then we would have to explain why sometimes we do it (layups, OOS) and other times we don't.
How much more would it cost to assign a couple of switchmen to
Continental? I've been down on the relay there and I know what
you mean about vagrants getting agitated. So, don't change ends.
Have your switchman stay down at the south end and double-end you.
Sure, if the train is going to be laid up, it has to get cleaned
out. How about instead of doing it at Continental, if there's road
behind you, send the train down to Union Tpke?
The switchmen are there as a reserve for when the road blows up period.
If passengers found out a G or R sometimes went to Union we would never be able to get rid of anyone from the train plus the odd railfans who would insist on that experience. Plus Union is not always available plus you would then either have to take the train to 179 to the yard, 179 then reverse at CTL or make a main line reverse move. When they do the D4 layups they are almost right on top of each other anyway so stopping again at Union would be rough.
What I'm saying is how much extra would it cost to add a few
switching jobs that double ended every train? Either that or
add a few minutes to everyone's job so they pick up the train
on the other side.
$700,000
At that rate it would be cheaper to develop automated switchers to take care of the relays at Forest Hills. The operation would be similar to Park Row or Sands St during the cable car days. Only 3 switchers would be required (1 spare) and only 5000 feet of track need be retrofitted.
I really don't know why BUT something with signals is almost always going belly up over there to add to the problem. They are almost always doing something weird to compensate.
It's a shame. Continental _used to_ be a crackerjack terminal.
Some very smart Dispatchers and ATDs there and it used to run
like a railroad. They'd look up at the board and if a relay
were taking too long they send some one out there pronto to
keep it moving and avoid backing up local trains. Train running
late and they need it for the southbound? Get on the wire and
tell Roosevelt to send it up on 4 track, switchman ready on the
double-end, short relay north of the station, no delay to service.
I don't want to bust on you guys on the motors for not wanting
to deal with the skels on the relay. I don't want to say that
motormen in the past had a lot worse to deal with (ask Selkirk).
It's more like you guys now have different BS to deal with, like
being sent out on the road with much less training and being treated
like McDonald's employees instead of railroaders. So I guess if
that's the TA's attitude towards the operating crew, the crew
has every right to complain and have this empty the train before
the relay policy. But it shouldn't be taken out on the riders, which
it is, by delaying them 5 or even 10 minutes backed up trying
to get down 2 track during off-peak times.
It is just the same as it was in 1980 when I lived at 63rd maybe even a bit better now. When the December pick started it was worse until the got their sea legs.
It is not about being a good TD or ATD they no longer have the ability to give skips and reroutes at will.
One thing I noticed in talking to a lot of people on the two days we spent in the city shooting the rails is that the entire management scheme these days has taken on the same general attitude as many other state agencies - "quality circle" mentality of touchy-feely, "the customer is always right" and other jingoisms and restrictions on the ability of people to take the bull by the balls and do their JOB. Whereas managers and crew used to have a LOT of responsibility and had the ability to make a snap judgement in the best interests of the railroad for the situation at hand, it seems as though nobody is allowed to do *anything* without first forming a committee, scheduling a meeting room and appointing a "team leader" ...
I saw a number of situations where a crew had to lay down and wait for some wiglet on the other end of the radio to form committee, sprinkle adminisdust and pray to the ghods. Meanwhile the train rotted until the crew was told the decision of the judges. I'd have gone completely postal if I had to wait for permission to fix a hung door and blown up the railroad waiting for a "Simon says" ...
At certain places the TD and ATD tell you to do some whaked out stuff on their own initiative to keep the timetable going. There is one TD in particular we get our train 5 minutes lates so we get a HUGE unofficial skip. The fact that it is the middle of the night and people on those stations will have to wait 35 more minutes no problem.
OTOH I hada similiar skip on another line and a passenger banged it in.
If the vagrancy issue becomes a real problem then perhaps selected trains could have, as part of their clean-up prior to turnaround, a sweep through the cars by a police dog and handler. Cooperation would certainly improve.
An excellent suggestion. Cops and canines don't come out of the TA budget, so they can point a damning finger at the Mayor and Queens Beep as the ones directly responsible for fewer local trains during rush hour.
Right now, the local track is underused.
Two factors contribute to this. There are no available cars to operate more service and the TA's relay operations limit the capacity of terminal operations at Forest Hills.
So if the V was sent up to 179 Street, and the R was sent to Jamaica Center, would there be enough room for the G train to run?
"So if the V was sent up to 179 Street, and the R was sent to Jamaica Center, would there be enough room for the G train to run?"
It's not that simple, as has been discussed in great detail.
- Jamaica Center has a terrible arrangement and can only handle 12 tph, which it already does. This is why the extra 3 Es go to Hillside.
- Hillside has a big capacity. However, it has only two terminating tracks, so as long as NYCT policy is to be absolutely sure to clear everyone off a train before it relays, and as long as it takes roughly 4 minutes to clear a train, Hillside can only handle about 30 tph.
- If you relay the Gs at Continental, each of those will take 4 mins under current policy. This reduces the capacity for R and V trains that continue onward. 6 Gs per hour would only leave capacity for 18 Rs and Vs going on to Hillside (and as discussed above, Hillside can only handle 12 of them, because it is handling 18 Fs and Es). In addition, with each G taking 4 minutes to unload, the Rs and Vs will be staggered and not smoothly spaced.
So not matter how you do it, with current track arrangements and policies it looks like 18 tph is the max for the local track.
Hillside is also helped by all the putins lined up.
Incoming service is late? Just bring in a putin one interval early. When things are REALLY messed up they just bring you in on 3 track
Is the reason Jamaica Center/Parsons Archer is so terrible at turning trains because it was supposed to be a through station, and not a terminal?
Is the reason Jamaica Center/Parsons Archer is so terrible at turning trains because it was supposed to be a through station, and not a terminal?
A two track terminal with tail tracks, like Jamaica Center, should have a capacity of 40 tph. One such example is Times Sq, which used to turn 36 tph around.
The problem with Jamaica Center is that the whoever designed the terminal made a fundamental design mistake. The fact that it was intended to be a temporary terminal is no excuse. The BOT had no problems turning 34 tph at using the temporary Parsons/169th St terminals during the late 1940's and early 1950's.
Now there are a few things that you leave out.
First, why would one terminal have more capacity than the other with no other service changes needed.
Second, how much capacity does PA need considering that 71st to Roosevelt is still the chokepoint. If money appears for a new tunnel they can add a few generous timers, get rid of the 3rd layup at PA and get a much hihger capacity. You might be able to do that and keep the third layup on 2 track.
Third, 12 is likely lowballing anyway. If I hada supt than tried to run 30 TPH but only did 29 I would rate them higher than someone that ran 1 tph that was always on time. The TA has it backwards.
Fourth, I have seen them turn BOTH E&F services from PA when there was a broken rail during rush hour. It was gruesome but it was done. Having the towers run manually helped IMO.
First, why would one terminal have more capacity than the other with no other service changes needed.
Geometry is the key to terminal capacity. For non-relay terminals, it is the time required for trains to clear the interlocking. Here are the important distances going towards the terminal: end of Sutphin - 0; beginning of switch - 300'; end of switch - 600'; beginning of Jamaica Center - 1200'; end of Jamaica Center 1800'.
The problem is not so much that the x-over is 600 feet from Jamaica Center but that it is only 300 feet from Sutphin. This means that switch will not clear until departing trains are half way into Sutphin Blvd and already slowing down. Moreover, a following train cannot proceed into the switch until the leader is half way out of Sutphin, thus adding the leader's total dwell time in Sutphin (braking and acceleration included). This adds about 60 seconds to the minimum possible headway.
These problems are further exacerbated by the signal system. Trains cannot depart from Jamaica Center until the x-over is clear. This adds the time to travel the 1200' to the x-over to the to the minimum headway. This is an additional 30 seconds.
So, these problems add 90 seconds thus doubling what should have bee nthe minimum headway. This means that 20 tph is the theoretical max that should be expected. However, maximum operation requires strict adherence to schedules. 12 tph is about all the TA can manage; they needed 15 tph minimum.
how much capacity does PA need considering that 71st to Roosevelt is still the chokepoint.
A chokepoint is not a 3 mile long section of a line. The capacity of the tracks is nominally 40 tph except at terminals.
12 is likely lowballing anyway. If I hada supt than tried to run 30 TPH but only did 29 I would rate them higher than someone that ran 1 tph that was always on time.
The Jamaica Center station is busier than 179th St. The TA would should provide more service to where the customers are - if they could.
I have seen them turn BOTH E&F services from PA when there was a broken rail during rush hour. It was gruesome but it was done. Having the towers run manually helped IMO.
I have assumed that the tower throws the switch without delay in calulating the maximum capacity. Any delays get reflected in diminished capacity. The most obvious benefit for manual operation is that trains could leave Jamaica Center before the switch had been thrown in their favor. That would save 30 seconds and bring the capacity up to 24 tph. However, if some of the departing trains skipped Sutphin that would 30 tph would be possible.
Of course, completely automating tower operations is another alternative.
>This means that switch will not clear until departing trains are >half way into Sutphin Blvd and already slowing down.
Actually it is worse than that as I will explain later
>The Jamaica Center station is busier than 179th St. The TA would >should provide more service to where the customers are - if they >could.
But the F line to Union carries more folks during the week than the E does (unscientific observation) Can't base service just on a terminal. On nights and weekends the E is the workhorse in the east.
>The most obvious benefit for manual operation is that trains could >leave Jamaica Center before the switch had been thrown in their >favor.
Someone did that recently on the road and took a wrong lineup.
In terms of speed fastest is a good tower(s), then automatic, then an unmotivated tower. On auotmatic the section after the HB has to clear before they throw the switch and the keep you one more signal away form the HB coming in. I forget if it is the E or the J but you sometimes don't get the signal going to PA until the outbound is LEAVING Sutphin (or makes a long station stop). Also on automatic if both pockets are empty they will always bring the next one over the switch, with put ins and road conditions this is not always the best move to recover time.
>A chokepoint is not a 3 mile long section of a line. The capacity of >the tracks is nominally 40 tph except at terminals.
No because even at nominal 80 TPH on that 3 mile section it is serviced by a nominal capacity of 68TPH? at 179 plus CTL, plus PA
The problem with Jamaica Center is that the whoever designed the terminal made a fundamental design mistake.
What was the mistake? (I've only been to Jamaica Center once.)
Mvh Tim
The crossover tracks are well west of the station. This limits tph. In a properly designed terminal, they are immediately before the station.
OK, gotcha.
I'll mention Kungsträdgården again -- it's the only terminal on the Stockholm subway that turns trains of more than one line, and it turns 20 tph in the rush hours, without tail tracks. Its crossovers aren't more than 50 meters (about 55 yards) north of the station.
Mvh Tim
So if the V was sent up to 179 Street, and the R was sent to Jamaica Center, would there be enough room for the G train to run?
No. The TA's current operating procedures limit the local track to a nominal 15 tph. If they went back to the old relay operating procedures, there would be sufficient facilities to turn around the R, V and G on the Forest Hills local tracks (30+ tph). Of course, this assumes that there are enough Division B cars to provide the extra service.
What is the difference between the old day and new day procedures?
What is the difference between the old day and new day procedures?
Three minutes extra dwell time on the northbound local platform.
Back in the mid 1950's they ran 17 tph on both the E and F using 11-car R1/9's. They also ran 14 tph on the GG - 7 car R1/9's and 14 tph on the Brighton Local - 8 car A/B's.
The capacity of the lines - exclusive of terminal considerations - is nominally 40 tph. Factors that influence this capacity are train acceleration and braking rates, train length, station dwell time, maximum speed, safety margin, operator reaction time and signal system reaction time. The limitations imposed by terminals are usually more severe. However, the Queens Blvd line has 5 terminals: 2 at Forest Hills; 2 at 179th St and one at Jamaica Center.
Hi Stephen. Good to see you back on the board.
Did you miss Subtalk?
STORY about R-160 deal getting a watchdog.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, at least there are three bidders now,vs. two before. Is Breda (Washington Metrorail's main vendor) not up to the task (they didn't prequalify with MTA)?
Lets go Kawasaki!
I don't know if they are up to a contract that can potentially end up being 1,700 cars over the next decade. Perhaps it's the requirement that the cars be assembled in NY State that is keeping them from bidding. The other 3 have very substantial NY facilities.
That's an excellent point, Train Dude.
If they felt they could win a bidding competition and could guarantee themselves at least 1700 railcars in a NYC order, it might be worth their while to build a new factory, with the hopes that, as contract deliveries proceeded, they could pick up additional work bidding for more WMATA work, or MARTA, or MBTA or Miami Metrorail.
But that isn't very realistic.
Still, three bidders are better than two...I hope.
Why does this seem more about politics than the subway?
Because it is. The State requires that the cars are at least partially built in New York, even if it means only setting up a temporary facility for assembly of the cars and then shutting it down when the project is finished. So far it looks like only Alstom, Bombardier and Kawasaki are bidding on the R160 order. Bombardier has its (temporary?) facilty in Plattsburgh and Kawasaki has the old Otis elevator factory in Yonkers. But I think they may need to set up some sort of temporary facility to assemble the cars in order to have a chance at winning all or part of the R160 contract. I'm surprised Siemens hasn't bid on this contract. I read that they are doing part of the assembly of the MBTA's new Blue Line cars at a plant in Elmira, NY.
Oh god no, not Siemens! I am a Volkswagen Mechanic, and you should see the absolute crap they build for Volkswagen.
The subway yesterday, particularly the Broadway line, was mixed up. I saw Rs on the express and several E trains. I heard that one or more of those E trains ended up in 95th. Does anyone know what happened, why, and where the trains were rerouted?
There were Con Ed power problems caused by the Thunder/Lightening storm. This plus the high demand caused by the hot weather resulted in low voltage being send through out the lower Manhattan power grids. There was diminished power for the subway signals (which operate on AC power not DC as the trains do). Trains on some lines had to be passed by signals by track personnel.
E trains were re-routed via the R from Queens Plaza and terminated at Whitehall St although a few were sent all the way to 95th St in Brooklyn to alieviate congestion that would be occuring at Whitehall since there is only the middle track that can be used as a terminal.
Trains on some lines had to be passed by signals by track personnel.
I remember a similar situation in December 1992 where a flood shut down the power to all the signals throughout the system. Each one had to be manually reset after power was restored.
It was a total mess.
One of thos emisplaced E trains was sent down the Sea Beach to 86 St.
I'm surprised it wasn't sent through to Stillwell and back up the F, switching at Jay to take it back home.
Or through Stillwell, up the F, then up the G to get back onto Queens Blvd quicker.
Yeah, but... The lack of service was southbound on 4 Ave and the Sea Beach. After a lack of service southbound, you suffer from a lack of service to send back north. Since you have a misplaced train already, better to send it back the way it came and let it be useful.
So Lower Manhattan had a "brownout"? Con Ed is going to have problems if this summer turns out be real brutal like a few years ago.
Hey TrainDude, you got any information on this??
I was sitting on Forest Hill Platform yesterday(Wends), to stay out of 71ave Crew Room(There was on A/C in there). While sitting ther I saw two train coming to the station East Bound. One was a MU's the other a Tri-Level. Well the MU's was behind the Tri-Level. The MU's just took off and beat the ass off the Tri-Level. I don't know if the Tri-Level slow down for the turn after Forest Hills stop or what, nut it was some race.
Robert
Last night I rode an R-38 A train from Broadway-Nassau to Far Rockaway. I stood at the railfan window until Beach 67th.
I watched the tunnel structure closely after Euclid and before Grant. Other than the tunnels/switches for the yard and the tail tracks after Euclid, there is no indication that there were ever tracks beyond that point or that there was a station beyond Euclid.
I think its just an elaborate, well-played ruse by Mr. Brennan.
the lead to this area is out of sight on one of the yard leads, if i'm not mistaken, so there's no way you'd see it from an in service train. get a look at the track maps...
Does anyone know whether there is going to be a railfan front window on the LIRR M-7's? Is the engineer's cab full-length? Is the front window going to be glazed over like the R46's?
Info is appreciated.
Full width cabs. Sorry.
Peace,
ANDEE
That dosen't negate the possibility of a railfan view. All SEPTA units and MNRR Shoreliner \s have a full width cab and yet maintain a perfectly fine railfan view that supports even photography. The real ruestion is the LIRR going to be spiteful and black over the interrior window.
Maybe someone could give us a report based on the C-3 cars.
This thread reminds me of something I was going to post about a few weeks ago, and then forgot.
On my last visit to NY I rode on R142, R142A and R143 trains and found to my surprise that you *can* see out of the front of all of them, despite the full-width cabs, because there is a strange kind of glass in the interior window that lets you see straight ahead (slightly fuzzily), but doesn't allow you to see at an angle. So you can't see the T/O.
O.K., it isn't a real railfan window, but it is a lot better than nothing (and nothing is what we have on the London Underground!). I am surprised that no-one has mentioned these windows on SubTalk before. Does anyone know what kind of glass (or plastic) it is and how it achieves this odd effect?
Fytton.
It probably has polarized coating on it.
NOPE!
It is an imbeded something.
Elias
It's called "Smear-o-vision" and once you get underground it really sucks. It really zapps the detail out of everything. I think the R-142's have it worse than the R-143's. They should have just left an unfogged opposite side window like on the SEPTA BSS cars, the DC Metro cars and the MTBA new Red Line cars.
It's similar to the covering on the windows to all NYCT transverse cabs except on the R-62(A)'s and some R-44's. It's pretty awful. It's remotely passable in outdoor stations during the day, but it's useless underground.
"because there is a strange kind of glass in the interior window that lets you see straight ahead (slightly fuzzily), but doesn't allow you to see at an angle."
I took some pictures through that 'slightly fuzzy' and they turned out pretty good, kinda like a foggy morning or something. I liked them
Elias
>>> O.K., it isn't a real railfan window, but it is a lot better than nothing (and nothing is what we have on the London Underground!). I am surprised that no-one has mentioned these windows on SubTalk before. Does anyone know what kind of glass (or plastic) it is and how it achieves this odd effect?
I have, many times. I even posted a picture comparing the front-view out of an R142A to that of a London tube train. Several posters here have complained about "no railfan window" on the new cars. And I kept responding that the R142 window is way better than the blank wall you get on trains in London, Montreal and many other overseas cities. But no one seems to care. The view out of an R142 or R143 IS better than nothing.
I haven't seen a C-3 cab door for a while but if I remember correctly there's no window, or if there is it's shuttered.
When the car is in the middle of the train, the cab door can be closed to a half-width position.
LEs sometimes leave the cab door wide open (as in blocking the luggage racks), so you can see out the front. Ironic, that when the cab door is open on the MUs you don't have a railfan window but on the C-3s and probably the M-7 you can only get a view when it's open!
Why are they so anal about it anyway? I never understood why crews have such a problem with letting anyone watch out the front. And before someone says the typical 'would you like it if someone watched you work?!?' thing, forget it. If you like driving trains and hate people, there's plenty of freight RRs out there. In any case, there's lots of jobs where the worker is in full view of everyone and they don't care...
Like a train-themed go-go bar?
Does that mean passengers can not move between cars then?.....I know on some subway cars..this is not possible, while it is on others.....it would be a big headache if that movement between especially if you are trapped in the wrong car of a short platform station......like Aurburndale or Murray Hill, Queens.
You'll be able to move b/t cars. THey have elephant ears and how else would the conductors take tickets?
Or Forest Hills, and Kew Gardens.
welocome to the TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB !! complete with NEWSPAPERS
covering up any window view of the tracks in front of you !!!
........enjoy the BLOCKED OFF VIEW .........no lol !!
I'm surporised nobody's made a stink about cab doors being closed, or being better protected on trains since 9/11.
Of course, what's the worst someone going to do on an LIRR train? Hijack it and force it to go to Jamacia? =)
*running from the tomatos...*
If anyone tried to take over an MU cab, the passengers would kill'em. Dinner is on the table at 6:30 sharp and there are NO excuses.
The hijackers ARE THE MAIN COURSE.
Are markers still used on any redbirds on NYCTA? If not, when did they officially stop?
Other cities? PATH, SEPTA? CTA? TTC?
SEPTA uses marker lights on its BSS trains. WHite = Local, green = express, blue = sports express and yellow = BRS train.
Blue, but no red markers? What do out-of-service trains use, if anything? Can the markers be changed individually--i.e., for red and blue?
The taillights are red.
:0)
You'll almost never see a train out-of-service. Because the yard is easily accessed from Fern Rock station, many trains that need to deadhead to the yard simply are run in there in-service, and will make various movements to access the yard. (in case you didn't know, Fern Rock station was built for service, but also to avoid dragging trains all the way from the yard to Olney. The station was originally a two-track stub terminal, but a counterclockwise loop track that circles the shops and yards allowing access to the station from the east side was built in 1992. This build was to avoid having northbound and southbound trains cross in front of each other in the tunnel south of the station - southbounds always had the right-of-way.)
However, if a train must be taken out of service, they generally use the Special designation north of Girard. Out-of-service trains use the Ridge designation between Pattison and Girard stations. For some reason, Broad-Ridge Spur trains are never taken out of service.
There are red markers. Red are on the extreme outside edge of the cabs. Red are only tail lights, and cannot be used on a lead car
Nope, no mixing. All the designations are set in stone, er, steel. You can't mix because of the varied destinations, though mixing the lights would likely enable trains to avoid switching designations, especially under the current Ridge service.
I'm pretty sure CTA still uses them.
--Mark
Yes, the CTA still uses them:
http://chicago-l.org/operations/signals/markers.html
-- Ed Sachs
If nobody else has said so the "big" railroads have virtually abandoned the use of them too...except they were class lights, not route markers. Maybe some roads still use them? Out here everything runs extra anyway [Montana]and the rear headlight on dim is the rear marker on light engines.Nearly all mainline train movememnts are in CTC [much like the reason NYC subways no longer need markers.I'd guess in most places the tower operator doesn't see the train anyway. I'll second CTA using markers.
The ones on the Redbirds are always set to red over red regardless of the route.
Lazy bastards! All it takes is a pair of clips and the desire to rotate. :)
I saw a 2 train back in 1999 or 2000 whose marker lights were set to red-white or white-red. Once in a while a Redbird may show an old marker light combination. Maybe the T/O was being sentimental.:-)
It's a shame they did away with them actually. The ONE thing I noted when I came down to the city is that I had to wait for the trains to actually pull in and had to find side signs to figure out if it was a C or an E ... those BS bulkhead signs are useless for spotting what's rolling in. If the markers were still in use, I'd be able to tell while it was still in the tunnel. VERY annoying. Back in my day, the guys in the tower needed them and you made SURE you had yours set right when you left the terminal lest you end up in Queens. :)
Colored LED signs. Where the colors match the trains bullet.
That's not true--I've seen many 4 and 5 trains with white over green or white over red. I believe that some operators still set them, although I don't know how to read them so I don't know if they're correct.
Dan
The SECRET decoder ring ... no terrorists allowed (recently declassified) ...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/markers.htm
What regular passenger would take the time to memorize these?
What regular passenger would take the time to memorize these?
Not many non-railfans would try to memorize the list, but when markers were the main means of IDing a try, most regular passengers knew at least their own train's markers and those of others they saw every day. My dad (not a railfan), when showing me "the ropes" of subway riding showed me how to tell the trains pulling into TImes Square: red and green--brighton express; red and white--sea beach; green and white--west end. No colored numbers, geometric shapes or train announcements, and everyone got home.
In fact, when I took my first conductor's test about 1966 or 1967 one of the questions asked on the test was "What is the LEAST important consequence of displaying improper markers?" One of the answers was "Knowledgeable passengers may be misled," That was NOT the right answer.
>>>"What is the LEAST important consequence of displaying improper markers?" One of the answers was "Knowledgeable passengers may be misled," That was NOT the right answer.<<
So...what was the right answer?
Peace,
ANDEE
Trains could be misrouted (in the days before route selector buttons)
Sorry, too long ago to recall. That incorrect answer stuck in my mind because I was wondering whether it was a trick question or not.
Being given a wrong lineup sounds right. Tower personnel relied on marker lights to set switches properly.
But the question was the LEAST serious consequence, and that's the one I don't recall.
Um, the question was, "What is the LEAST important consequence of displaying improper markers?"
I don't think either of these (misinforming passengers or getting a wrong lineup) is the LEAST important consequence.
Mvh Tim
I agree wholeheartedly. It's a shame the system was dumbed down.
The Manhattan Trunk Line color code system is helpful for tourists
but does not disambiguate trains at a station. The previous and
short-lived color code system of the early 1970s did, but it was
very confusing.
Markers were certainly memorized by regular riders. Not the entire
system, but those that applied to their regular commute. They would
still be the most reliable way of distinguishing a distant train,
that is until NYCT enters the late 20th century and can display the
next train and eta on message boards in the stations.
How long did the stopping indicators last at Times Square? I've seen a photo of the BMT Times Square station with Sea Beach, West End, and Brighton stopping marks plainly visible.
BTW, Denver's light rail system uses stopping marks at stations. Look at the edge of the boarding area along each track and you'll see the word "DOOR" stenciled in yellow letters at certain locations. When the train stops, the doors line up with the marks.
How long did the stopping indicators last at Times Square? I've seen a photo of the BMT Times Square station with Sea Beach, West End, and Brighton stopping marks plainly visible.
They were there in my memory, maybe 1953 or 1954. I suspect they were removed when the Brighton Express was extended from Times Square to 57th Street (1954?) and certainly by the time the Sea Beach and West End were extended to 57th Street (1957?).
Back in the good old days, before most equipment on the IRT and BMT had head-end signs, most regular passengers knew the marker lights of the trains they rode, so they could identify them as they pulled into the station. I would guess that IND riders never cared that much.
I still remember:
Brighton Express: red green
Brighton Local: white white (southbound), red red (northbound)
14th St line to Canarsie: red red, to Myrtle Ave: green green
-- Ed Sachs
>>> What regular passenger would take the time to memorize these? <<<
Only anal retentive rail fans would memorize all the signals. Regular passengers would recognize the train they wanted to catch, just like a man recognizes his wife or lover when she is still a block away. They might not even be able to tell someone who asked what color the marker lights were, but subconsciously they knew which train was the right one, and which was not.
Tom
I could be wrong, but I think marker lights were especially helpful on the Manhattan and Bronx el system, and especially at night. For a while, the marker boxes were painted in the four colors, for daytime visibility. Passengers and towermen could use the marker indications to learn whether (for example) the arriving train was a Freeman Street local. Before the delivery of the World's Fair cars(1938) no IRT subway car had front destination signs, so markers were important. I recall some IRT maps (on el stations? inside cars?) that had a legend box describing the marker combinations. In my memory, marker lights were used until route-indication buttons appeared at each route diversion. Until that time, tower personnel had to get a look at the train before throwing a switch. Joe McMahon
what colors did the flushing #7 use?...express??....local???
..........!
the pre redbird dayz ....
what colors did the flushing #7 use?...express??
Green/Red
....local???
White/Red or Yellow/Red to 111th or Willets Pt
They also had the Exp/Local lights on the front
They also had the Exp/Local lights on the front
That's a whole other thing. Why is it that, since IND days, the LOCAL lens on those suckets were GREEN and the EXP lens was RED.
Kinda counter-intuitive, no?
Speaking of Exp and Local lights reminds me of the "Via Bridge" and "Via Tunnel" lights on the BMT Triplexes (D-types). They were on the side route/destination signs. The "Via Bridge" lights were green and the "Via Tunnel" lights were white, and the head end route no./destination signs were lit in the same color.
-- Ed Sachs
That must be before my time. I never remember the front rolls of the Triplex being lit in any color.
Wow ... sounds pretty neat. Never saw that but I DO remember the "Via Bridge/Via Tunnel" signs on the platforms at DeKalb ...
Brian Cudahy made an interesting comment about that unique feature on the Triplexes: "Some New Yorkers rode these cars to work for as long as 30 years without ever knowing the meaning of the BMT's carefully thought out signs and symbols".
I must admit that I saw the green and white for years without realizing that the head end signs were color coded to the Bridge and Tunnel routes until I read Cudahy's book, but once I read it, I did a big "duh!"
-- Ed Sachs
You too, eh?:-)
I take it those illuminated Triplex signs were still functioning when they were withdrawn from service.
>>> what colors did the flushing #7 use? <<<
Long before it was the #7, Lo-V trains from Times Square were Red/Red to Astoria, Green/Green local to Flushing, and Green/Red express to Flushing. Second Avenue trains and BMT Q trains had other light combinations.
Tom
In the '60s when I rode the A train daily, I'd always rely on the marker lights to tell me if an approaching train was going through to Lefferts Blvd. (red/red markers) or was cutting back at Euclid Ave. (yellow/red markers). This was a useful feature for regular riders, and I miss it.
On a related matter, I've noticed on a recent ride on the Flushing line that no effort is made to display correct signs for trains terminating at 111th St. This practice dumps a load of people onto the platform at 111th when the train is abruptly taken out of service, when people could have just waited for a train that was going through to Main St. Was this always the case on the No. 7 line, or were the signs once turned faithfully to 111th St. for trains heading into Corona Yard?
On a related matter, I've noticed on a recent ride on the Flushing line that no effort is made to display correct signs for trains terminating at 111th St. This practice dumps a load of people onto the platform at 111th when the train is abruptly taken out of service, when people could have just waited for a train that was going through to Main St. Was this always the case on the No. 7 line, or were the signs once turned faithfully to 111th St. for trains heading into Corona Yard?
They also make no effort to mark whether a train is an express or local in the evening. This was not the case years ago. Signs were changed to reflect both the correct terminal and whether it was an express or local.
The original R12/14/15 roll signs did not include 111th St. They would usually place the signs between 2 terminals to indicate this short route. I believe they also had a plaque on the front to indicate turning at 111th.
In addition they also had the Identra signs in the stations that indicated whether the train was a local, express or super express.
This is happening more frequently on GOs too. Last weekend, during the GO that had D trains terinating at 145th Street all the signs still said 34th St/Herald Square. I know that there is no 145th on the lower sign, but at least it could have been turned to special.
Also, overnites when they have the D terminating at WTC and/or second avenue, the lower destination signs are never changed.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> I've noticed on a recent ride on the Flushing line that no effort is made to display correct signs for trains terminating at 111th St. <<<
Is termination at 111th Street a recent practice? I do not remember any trains terminating there in the ‘50s. Back then I don't remember any skip stop service or suspension of service for maintenance either. They knew how to run a railroad then.
Tom
Trains regularly are taken out of service by terminating them at 111th St. and taking them into Corona Yard at the end of morning rush hours. The reverse is done at the beginning of the p.m. rush, as trains come up the yard lead and enter service. Add to that the expresses whizzing by on the high-level track and 111th is a fantastic place to watch the action.
>>> Trains regularly are taken out of service by terminating them at 111th St. and taking them into Corona Yard at the end of morning rush hours. The reverse is done at the beginning of the p.m. rush, as trains come up the yard lead and enter service. <<<
Terminating at 11th Street is easy enough to understand when a train is going to the yard. I have watched trains entering service from the yard and going to the yard, but I just do not remember any trains terminating at 111th Street and immediately returning to Manhattan.
Tom
I do not remember any trains terminating there in the ‘50s
Every other local starts or terminates at 111th - even in the 1950's.
At present they are operating full tilt from 6:45 AM to 8:45 AM. This means that half the locals trains turn around at 111th.
The problem is the stub terminal at Main St. Its capacity maxes out at 24 tph. In the old days an additional 6 tph originated at Willets Pt and an additional 6 tph originated at 111th.
Hmm... WMATA could use them, it'd definitely be easier than trying to read their "bus-style" signs in the front to determine what the train was. Although, stations on the line have recently been outfitted with information boards that let you know the route color, destination, and length of the next train. Still, it'd be nice to see marker lights (and front railfan seats) in the DC Metro. They've never used them.
The 2nd Ave. El had 19 local stops & 6 express stops (25 in all). The 3rd Ave. El had 18 local stops & 8 express stops (26 in all). The future Second Avenue Subway will have 15 to 16 stops with no express service.
Keep in mind that like much of the original IND, the SAS's stations are under Manhattan's major intersections and the trains are supposed to move faster than others.
Between the 2nd Ave. El and the SAS, which of the two station alignments better serve the five boroughs?
-Alex V.
It's a moot issue. We're not getting the El back and there isn't enough money to provide express tracks on the new Second Av line. Stations will be located at major intersections; the only question is which of the "second-tier" stations will be confirmed for inclusion. For example, Manhattan pols have lobbied for a station at 116th St. MTA initially balked due to civil engineering difficulties, but the latest news is that the agency has agreed to build that station (I am in favor of its inclusion).
I'm afraid that the SAS will do nothing more than reievng the Lex expresses. The 6 will still be crowded, because compared to the 6, the SAS will be an express line. Maybe this will encourage people to transfer at the stations to expresses. I was on a 6, and it was packed (from 42 to 60). Any word if, maybe there will be some transfers available from Lex-SAS at some locations (such as 34th). How much construction will be needed to connect the cosstown lines to the SAS?
The SAS as designed will work good with the major intersection stations, like the IND that someone mentioned. And we're talking Manhattan blocks here. It's not that much of a walk, as the blocks are short, and considering most stations spread a few blocks underground anyway.
If the stations are spaced evenly, not having an express full time probably won't hurt. Besides, skip stop is always a possibility.
VIA Rail Canada's new European style/designed "Renaissance" cars had a speed restriction imposed by Canada's rail regulation body that drops their maxium speed from 100mph to 90 mph. The 130 new cars were designed to augment the current fleet and stop car shortages that are plagueing their western long distance routes that have seen a surge in demand. The new cars were also to replace the LRC cars on the "Canadian NEC" between Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. The reason given was that the regulators did not have enough data to determine if the cars were safe at the higher speed.
VIA plans on replacing LRC cars with Renaissance Equipment on trains 50 and 51, commencing with the June 23 trains.
Trains 50/51 do not ever use LRC. It's 2 HEP-2 Corridor coaches, a Chateau Sleeper, and a Park car. They are supposed to replace Budd equipment on the Ocean and Chaleur and add service to the Quebec-Windsor Corridor, but not replace any LRC's.
"VIA Rail Canada's new European style/designed 'Renaissance' cars had a speed restriction imposed by Canada's rail regulation body that drops their maxium speed from 100mph to 90 mph. ... VIA plans on replacing LRC cars with Renaissance Equipment on trains 50 and 51, commencing with the June 23 trains."
The last piece of information renders the first moot. Trains 50 and 51 are the Enterprise. This night train schedules at least 8.5 hours to cover a distance day trains zip through in 4 to 5.5 hours. The long trip includes a 2-3 hour stopover along the way to purposely kill time so passengers can have a full night's sleep. Therefore, a drop in permitted speed from 100 to 90 makes nary a difference on that run. http://www.via.ca/trains/en_trai_onta_tomo.html
The NYS&W is extending its already sucessful "OnTrack" Syracuse RDC commuter service all the way to Binghamton NY. The line will originate and terminate near both citie's sports complexes and give access to the Syracuse Amtrak station. A one-way fare is $25 and the service was prompted vy two new minour league teams in Binghamton that served to augment the existing bussiness base. Even though the service would take longer than competing busses and there were no ridwership studies, the NYS&W said that they didn't care and felt it was worth giving it a go as preforming studies would cost near as much as the actual service minus the track work that needs to be preformed anyway. The service will kick off in early 2003 and will cost 9.7 million dollars. State and Federal funds are kicking in 4.6 million for the project. Much of the money will go to fix the track, some of which is limited to 10 mph. The goal is to get most of the 75-mile line up to 45 mph track speeds. The NYS&W plans to run the service using 2-car Budd RDC trains.
The service will first open as an excursion and then move on into a commuter mode. The state assembly is also studying a 3.3 million $ plan to open excursion service to Utica.
do you know what stops there will be between Binghamton and Syracuse?
I was in binghamton in 95. Very intersting place. It seems lonely, can use some more rail service. I'm glad to see Binghamton is movin on up. Did passege rail ever go there, and when did it stop (if so)?
On a lighter side,whe I was there I saw a game. Got signatures from Benny Agbayani, and Jay Paton, to name a few. During the game, a player broke hs leg, and was taken to the hospital in s 2-door sports car. The ride must've hurt, espically since he was spread out in the "back seat"
According to today's Binghamton Sun-Bulletin, passenger service to Binghamton halted in 1970.
There is a old station there (not far from the B-Mets) that appeared to be functioning as the bus station
Binghamton was part of the New York Central line that went all the way to Chicago. But some local did reach it from Port Jervis.
Binghamton was DL&W and Erie, NOT NYC. The line north to Syracuse and Oswego was DL&W. ERIE LACKAWANNA RULES
Yeah, Erie Lackawanna RULES!!!!!!!! It was a great railroad back in the day, but come on, is it around anymore? They rule nut'in now.
Don't get me going, Fred has the N train, I have the Erie Lackawanna. If it wasn't for hurricane Agnes, the Stack Ready from day 1 EL would have BURIED Penn Central. BTW, did you know Chessie system tried to buy EL in early '76-- the unions put the kibosh to that because of the EL-Chessie THREAT.
Heh heh, wow. I actually live about 400 hundred feet from the DL&W main north of Scranton, PA, so I am partial to the EL also. I'm too young to have seen the EL in action, but I've spent many many hours watching D&H, NYS&W, and then CP trains go by...
CP and NYS&W -Mere pretenders. D&H in the early '70s was REAL NICE after they got rid of the black paint scheme but before they got those MUTTLINGS from ConRail. (matched sets of second generation Alcos look GREAT in fresh blue and gray)
IIRC the deal fell thru because the unions insisted on major job protection clauses -- which is why an early name for Con Rail was ConJob. The Chessie geniuses were too chicken to gamble they could improve the deal later. DUMB IMHO. Early months of Conrail featured E L units everywhere -- they still were functional unlike PC's fleet of rust. EL + Chessie would have been awesome.
Any thoughts about connecting to Port Jervis to meet up with MN service?
that would be awesome
What is their website?
- Lyle Goldman
OnTrack website
I think the Mongolian Subway had more trains than that!
Don't they have a regular URL address (like www.something...)?
- Lyle Goldman
You mean a domain name? Bob gave you a perfectly valid URL.
Yes, that's exactly what I mean.
- Lyle Goldman
How long has this "ONTRACK" train been around? Also, does it stop at Amtrak's Syracuse Station? Their website doesn't really make that clear.
- Lyle Goldman
Anybody here ever play or see the computer game Max Payne? A friend of mine just gave it to me, and it's an amazing game for subway lovers! Its like a 3rd person action game and the whole thing takes place in the NYC Subway system. You go through all those shady looking doors you see all over the system and basically shoot everyone. You also ride on service cars, and more. Its all extremely realistic, the stations all look like real stations, trains pass you by, its really amazing!
click here for some screenshots.
-WS
I have Max Payne for PC, but I can't play it because of the Graphics, I did play before though, I believe the A Line is in there with a R-32.
It was an E.
nope, it was an A
Ya It was a A Train because I saw the screenshots in the Commercial.
I stand corrected
Anybody here ever play or see the computer game Max Payne? A friend of mine just gave it to me, and it's an amazing game for subway lovers! Its like a 3rd person action game and the whole thing takes place in the NYC Subway system. You go through all those shady looking doors you see all over the system and basically shoot everyone.
That's hardly a favorable - or accurate - image of today's system.
I think it takes place in the 80's ??
Yes, the "ROsco Street Station". PRetty realistic.
It doesn't all take place in the subway system. Only the ~ first 3 segments or so.
FYI:
http://www.cnjfestival.com/outline.html
Kindly put up another post to remind us as the date draws nearer.
After seeing old pictures of the LIRR Owl-Eyed MUs serving the Mitchell Field spur, I am hoping the the Tom Suozzi, the Nassau county exec. , will encourage the reopening of the spur as maybe a part time setup. The spur would service all the industrial parks and even Roosevelt Field. If heavy equipment is not the answer, then maybe using light rail vehicles would be the answer to quell fears from the NIMBYs of Garden City. It would connect up to the Country Life Station to meet up with the Hempstead line.
I agree. There was talk a few years ago about a light rail line around the Roosevelt Field area, but I don't know if that was to use that line, or what became of the plan. It should never have been abandoned to begin with, as the NIMBY's have made it impossible to reactivate the line.
First of all the Central Branch is a Garden City Dog walk & since these dogs are all pedigrees we can't have anything going on in the area that might distirb them !
Seriously, George Pataki issued a exec order killing all freight traffic on that ROW. He came to Gargen City to announce it, so it wasn't a trivila matter, politically.
Yes, in the Tom Gulotta admin. there was a plan for a LRV system. It used much of the existing ROW after it crosses the Meadowbrook Pky.
Mr rt__:^)
Regardless of what local Garden City dogwalkers do use it, this line could be a great help in reducing the automible traffic if it were to be revived....and beside, Tom Gulotta is no longer in office which means political favoritism is dead with Tom Suozzi in town. My hope is that Suozzi can convince some of these NIMBYs that since they already have homes near the line, why make a big issue about?....they knew that living near does not guarantee a quiet barbarque with family and friends. And besides, no freight would be going through, just maybe LRVs, which are not noisy machines when drive over rails that are welded with concrete ties to boot. People need to be more pro-transit and less worried about their poor ears!
they knew that living near does not guarantee a quiet barbarque with family and friends.
I never understand these NIMBY's that but a house near railroad tracks, usually a little cheaper than a comparative home away from the tracks, and then complain when they run trains over those tracks. Well, what the hell did they think the tracks were for? If the thought of trains running near their homes upsets them, they shouldn't bought a home near railroad tracks.
Ah, the NIMBY mind. See, you and I understand that trains make noise when they pass nearby. We also understand that airliners make noise when they fly overhead. We also understand that hog farms stink like hell. But most NIMBY's seem to have been born without the little bit of brain matter that makes those sorts of logical connections.
If it were up to me, I'd ship all these NIMBY's to Chicago and force them to live next to our 'L' for a few months. Meanwhile, bring back service on the abandoned railroad spur. After living next to the 'L' for a while, they'd be dying to live next to some nice and quiet LIRR tracks.
-- David
Chicago, IL
hog farms stink like hell.
I resent that!
If the shoe fits...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Ahh, I see you are taking the Roman Numerals thread pretty seriously.......
Actually, it was one of my banners that originally started that thread. I've been using them off-and-on for a couple years now.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Pretty cool.
Epsilon, cool.
Actually, a capital Sigma.
There are no capitals and lowercase letters in Greek.
It's a printed (or block) Sigma.
Take it with a grain of salt AP. Just as there are people out there that have no idea what NYC is like, there are some people in the "Big City" who have no idea what farms are like.
And speaking of farms and NIMBY's: I read a story once in the paper about how out east, as more and more farmland is being converted to home subdivisions, the new homes live side by side with the farms. Then the new homeowners complain about it when the tractors and irrigation systems start at 4:00 in the morning, and the fertilizer gets spread. A little ironic considering that the farms were there way before them. No one was forcing them to live near a farm.
The same thing with railroad ROW's. In most cases, they were there long before any homes were built.
And I think farmers on LI were complaining when the LIRR started running.
LOL....yeah the railroad went right through their farms in some cases. I remember reading stories about how the farmers would set fire to the trains, and sabotaged the LIRR tracks!
Although the railroad wasn't all that innocent back then either. I remember reading in some book about how the town of Quogue (I think) erected a depot in a spot where they wanted it to be. The LIRR didn't like the location and wanted it removed to a different location. The villagers refused, and gaurded the depot so the LIRR could not move it to where they wanted. Apparently the LIRR got the gaurds drunk and dropped the station on a flatbed train, and plopped it to where the station remained. The villagers were outraged for two reasons, one for the LIRR to do this in the first place, but two because it was done on Sunday.......heaven forbid. The village of Quogue couldn't believe that the LIRR would stoop to doing that on a Sunday! I guess times have changed......
Out here people would try to guess what route the train was going to take and would try to buy land and/or set up a town where they thought the train would come...
Only to find out that the train found some other way to go.
Mostly because these were Land Grant Railroads, and so recouped their construction costs by selling land. It behoved them to erect thier stations on their own sections and then sell the land to people, instead of the other way around.
Anyway... the way I heard the story on the LIRR was that the people built the station where they wanted it, and the LIRR never stopped their trains there, but only at the station that they themselves built.
Elias
Big *itches. Just throw them into WW2 Germany and thoses NIMBYs will turn into crusading YIMBYs. All NIBMYs are spoiled.
Me too
Synonyms of NIMBY:
1) Dishonesty
2) Hypocrisy
Synonyms of NIMBY:
1) Dishonesty
2) Hypocrisy
3) Sheer terror that those people will move into one's neighborhood.
Defination of a NIMBY:
One who complains loudly about lack of vital transit services in their area. Yet complains just as loudly about proposals to install vital transit services in their area.
That is the truth! Some people are not happy unless they are complaining about something. I can't understand that these people are the same people that probably were extatic that they got a "deal" when buying their homes near the tracks. (definition of "deal" in this case - screwed the former homeowner). Then they are the first ones to scream and jump up when the tracks are used for their true purpose. They can't understand the fact that their home may have been a little cheaper because it is near railroad tracks. They want the have the best of both worlds. Transportation is for the greater good. Somebody has to live near the tracks.
What's interesting about this situation, I have a co-op apartment in Bayside, Queens that face the LIRR tracks and is 2 blocks west of the station, yet I was told recently that apartments in my building are more valuable than apartments in the northend of town facing the Throggs Neck Bridge, just because I am close to the station and within walking distance, so go figure....sometimes it pays to be close by to a ROW......
What's interesting about this situation, I have a co-op apartment in Bayside, Queens that face the LIRR tracks and is 2 blocks west of the station, yet I was told recently that apartments in my building are more valuable than apartments in the northend of town facing the Throggs Neck Bridge, just because I am close to the station and within walking distance, so go figure....sometimes it pays to be close by to a ROW......
It makes sense. I'm not that familiar with Bayside station, but most likely parking is at a premium, if indeed there's any at all. People beyond convenient walking distance therefore have to try to get rides to the station or take (probably inconvenient) bus connections. Hence, the higher prices for walking-distance properties.
"I was told recently that apartments in my building are more valuable than apartments in the northend of town facing the Throggs Neck Bridge, just because I am close to the station and within walking distance, so go figure....sometimes it pays to be close by to a ROW......"
Yes, it does pay. Real Estate close to rail or transit stations are significantly more valuable than those further way from them.
Studies have repeatedly shown that, for systems put in the last say, 20 years, the ROW itself has little effect on property values up or down. It doesn't wreck the neighborhood. But the stations really lift property values. That's a proven, documented fact, beyond debate. Of course, then you have to pay more property tax.
In New York, the existing elevated ROW have been there so long that current property values take them into account - and after 9/11, they are even more valuable.
The pricier areas in Queens owe their values to the Queens Blvd. subway and the LIRR. The MVM's (Middle Village Morons, AKA NIMBYs) didn't seem to get it...
(The pricier areas in Queens owe their values to the Queens Blvd. subway and the LIRR. The MVM's (Middle Village Morons, AKA NIMBYs) didn't seem to get it.)
NIMBYs are generally people who are against change, period, and who associate physical change -- new buildings, new businesses, new infrastructure -- with social change. Hence, you have some people wanting to keep out the poor due to fear of crime and property values, others the well off due to fear of gentrification.
This is true, but in the case of the Middle Village residents that opposed the reopening of the old ROW that ran through their backyards for so many years, it is basically a noise pollution issue, with some concern about their kids running around the ROW since it would be next to their yards.
You are correct about what they openly talk about - but since a lot could be done to minimize these problems (including creating a subway "Box" to eliminate noise and ROW hazards) it's clear the complaints are stand-ins for the real fears, the ignorance, the bigotry.
They are more explicit on zoning issues, especially when bashing college educated whites, which is more PC than bashing low income minorities. You should hear the way people talk about Starbucks -- "they" will be all over the place! With regard to low income minorities, sometimes they talk in code, sometimes they don't. The bigotry generally isn't as subtle as in the subrubs, though it isn't as frantic either.
"The bigotry generally isn't as subtle as in the subrubs, though it isn't as frantic either. "
I've noticed that too.
I've met lower-income whites who are not prejudiced, accepting, tolerant, with some even intermarrying with other races. And then there are a few who openly use the "n" word and espouse guarding their "white neighborhood" with baseball bats to keep minorities out.
("The bigotry generally isn't as subtle as in the subrubs, though it isn't as frantic either. "
I've noticed that too.
I've met lower-income whites who are not prejudiced, accepting, tolerant, with some even intermarrying with other races. And
then there are a few who openly use the "n" word and espouse guarding their "white neighborhood" with baseball bats to keep
minorities out.)
The latest trend is Black bigotry. After the blow ups of past decades, hundreds of thousands of non-Whites have moved into White NYC neighborhoods without notice -- the city's native born white population continues to fall. At the same time, with crime down many Whites are moving into formerly Black and Latino neighborhoods. While most probably welcome this, a few loudmouths have protested the "invasion" and demanded government action to stop it.
As with transit, its only a few loudmouths. That's why if politicians had the guts to bash the NIMBYs rather than cowering before them, they might fare better than they think at election time.
The latest trend is Black bigotry. After the blow ups of past decades, hundreds of thousands of non-Whites have moved into White NYC neighborhoods without notice -- the city's native born white population continues to fall. At the same time, with crime down many Whites are moving into formerly Black and Latino neighborhoods. While most probably welcome this, a few loudmouths have protested the "invasion" and demanded government action to stop it.
It's probably fear of higher rents rather than an actual racial issue. The existing minority residents have figured out that if their 'hoods become attractive to whites, especially trendy young whites (who probably are those actually moving into the minority neighborhoods), rents will increase. I'll bet that minority residents who have rent-controlled apartments or own their residences aren't particularly worried about the white influx.
As with transit, its only a few loudmouths. That's why if politicians had the guts to bash the NIMBYs rather than cowering before them, they might fare better than they think at election time.
As you yourself have noted, a handful of determined opponents can delay a transit project for years. All that have to do is find a missing word in footnote 77W on page 682 of the Environmental Impact Statement.
And Whitestone? A 2 bdrm in the Bayclub runs 400k+ up from 200K 12 years ago.
"And Whitestone? A 2 bdrm in the Bayclub runs 400k+ up from 200K 12 years ago."
Good for them. The presence of a train line is not a requirement for an increase in property values - but it makes it much more likely that values will rise.
New York City, over the last 20 years, has become a much more desirable place to live. Good jobs, good public transportation (bus service to Whitestone is pretty good), a police department which uses community policing and Compstat and aggressively enforces quality of life issues, culture, etc. - all these help push up property values too.
They won't because when the non-whites apear time to move further fro the city. My block used to be all white until 1974 (asians) then black (rich black) in 1979, 1994 (ghetto black), now drug dealing mexican. Why are their 9 cars infront of their house and mine every friday from 9:30PM till 1 AM, most cadilacs or lincons and 2 mercedies?
They won't because when the non-whites apear time to move further fro the city. My block used to be all white until 1974 (rich asians) then black (rich black) in 1979, 1989 ghetto indian (from india), 1994 ghetto black, now drug dealing mexican (2001). Why are their 9 cars infront of their house and mine every friday from 9:30PM till 1 AM, most cadilacs or lincons and 2 mercedies?
They won't because when the non-whites apear time to move further fro the city. My block used to be all white until 1974 (rich asians) then black (rich black) in 1979, 1989 ghetto indian (from india), 1994 ghetto black, now drug dealing mexican (2001). Why are their 9 cars infront of their house and mine every friday from 9:30PM till 1 AM, most cadilacs or lincons and 2 mercedies?
I really don't know what point you're trying to make.
When "undesirably" people come to the neiborhood the richest (whites) always flee to where there are no or less "undesirabls" (like to suburbs). My house was $500,000 when we boaght it in 1966 now it is $190,000 due to all the "undesirablys" that have moved into the neiborhood. You should now what "undesirablys" are.
When "undesirably" people come to the neiborhood the richest (whites) always flee to where there are no or less "undesirabls" (like to suburbs).
News flash: the suburbs aren't all white anymore.
My house was $500,000 when we boaght it in 1966 now it is $190,000 due to all the "undesirablys" that have moved into the neiborhood. You should now what "undesirablys" are
Sorry, I just don't believe that. A house that went for $500K in 1966 must've been a huge mansion. No way it would be worth only $190K today unless it has very seriously deteriorated.
rich South American (Way too much house renovations), Asian, ? black, ghetto Philipino (3 triked out moddeed cars with drag races every saturday), rich Asian (private school, parents tech firm), ghetto Asian (How come they are making out outside twice a week), Rich asian (plans to move to Staten Island in near future), French Jewish (Strange, weird), Ghetto black (unkept, rats).
Black, poor black (you hust know), rich black, Asian, ghetto black (rusted out car, unkept), ghetto Columbian (7 punks going round the hood on bikes in undershirts and bandanas, look like from harlem)(former owners were robbed in 1998), Us, Ghetto Banggladesh (BB from 4 to 8 pm everyday)(attempted robbery in 1996), Italian (now liveing with relative for protecton), Jewish (haven't seen in person for last 5 years). House built in 1937 by Donold Trump's Father.
Neiborhood just isn't a place you would feel conforatable walking at night. Grandmother strangled in 1997 by robber (nothing stolen), she is still alive (gave big bloddy wound, beat the living sh** out of robber). House brokken in 2 times before we moved in but alredy boght (because rich suburb and not so nice south of hillside ghetto was crawling up). Now most of the white moved to Staten Island or further north or LI. The ghetto keps climbing north. Over the last 4 years I've seen 10 house torn down (really beautiful Tudors)and rebuilt from scratch or rebuilt into Condos/Apartemnt buildings. This neiborhood used to be like Forest Hills Gardens. Now it is a has been. We get 1-2 phone calls from Real estate and Developers (in the name of progress) a day to sell, 2-4 ads from Real Estate in the mail a day. So the house will be sold as low income housing. Also my quote is inflation adjusted, actually purcese price was $300,000.
Also my quote is inflation adjusted, actually purcese price was $300,000.
$300,000 in 1966 adjusts to $1.7 Million
$500,000 in 1966 adjusts to $2.8 Million
I totally agree on those figures. Maybe Peter had bought a small apartment house or something, that would explain the depreciation if the neighborhood went down. I still would like to know what area he is referring to.
No, he's talking purcese figures, not precise, therefore he's correct. :-)
Why would anyone pay $500,000 for a house in 1966?.....what area is that? In 1966, there were probably houses on the market for way less money in much nicer neighborhoods. If anything, I would blame all the real estate agents who were allowed to bust up neighborhoods. They are really the culprets to neighborhood busting. They put the "fear" into peoples heads about what was headed their way instead of saying things would not change at all. Our State govenment has a hand in this too for not policing real estate agents and not imposing heffty fines when discrimination and neighborhood busting was ramped in the 50's and 60's.
In 1966, there were probably houses on the market for way less money in much nicer neighborhoods.
There were houses for much less than that in incredibly posh neighborhoods.
Assuming nothing else has changed, a house that costed $500,000 in 1966 would cost several million dollars today.
No way it depreciated to $109,000.
undesirably...undesirabls...undesirablys
Bad spelling is one thing, but you're not even consistent.
I never understand these NIMBY's that [buy] a house near RR tracks, usually a little cheaper than a comparative home away from the tracks, and then complain when they run trains over those tracks. Well, what the hell did they think the tracks were for? If the thought of trains running near their homes upsets them, they shouldn't bought a home near railroad tracks.
To my way of thinking, this applies when the tracks are active or easily visible. But if the ROW has been dormant for, say, 30 years, then there's a certain logic. Probably a large number of those folks have NO IDEA that the overgrown boundary line was actually a rail ROW in a previous generation. If the tracks and crossing signs are gone, 10 years of sumac and junk shrubs can obliterate any obvious evidence. Forty years, unless it's cleared, only foamers remember.
Some of this may get addressed by new, much fiercer disclosure laws required for real estate transactions in some areas. I gather now you have to disclose anything from whether crimes have occurred in the property to anything that you're aware of that in the nabe that MAY have an adverse effect. I believe lack of disclosure is grounds for either criminal prosecution or cancellation of contract.
Adverse effect could be anything from a proposed group residence to, yes, the existence of a disused rail ROW. That way, in the future, new buyers won't be able to say they weren't warned.
Make a law forbids people to build anything on any ROW abandoned after 1947. They can own it but they will be forced to give it up if a plan comes up to reactivate it.
I like the idea, but curious, how did you come up with 1947? Why the specific year?
That's what I say..why 1947..and besides, these houses in Garden City were there for quite some time until the line was shutdown in the the late 1950's I believe. So you see, for someone to have a problem about noise pollution from a ROW that was there for quite sometime, the OLD CENTRAL ROW to be exact, does not sit to well for me. When Mr. Stewart built his community up, he know that some houses would be near the ROW at some point. And again, any service does not mean it would run all night or on weekends.
It's ironic considering that some of the homes in Stewart's development may have been worth more if they were near to the ROW, as it was easier to get to the trains.
"And again, any service does not mean it would run all night or on weekends"
The NIMBYs will be wondering when night and weekend service will be running again.
Well I once saw a railroad map from 1948 that made A NYC subway map ashamed of lack of routes. I went on eyear earlyierincase some of the lines in this atlas where already abandoned.
Make a law forbids people to build anything on any ROW abandoned after 1947. They can own it but they will be forced to give it up if a plan comes up to reactivate it.
I may be wrong on this, having neither the time nor the inclination to look through NYS statutes, but if I recall correctly there is no right of adverse possession over a former rail line. Using most types of property without the owner's consent for a certain period of years will actually give the user a form of ownership interest in the property. This is called adverse possession, a very old legal doctrine indeed, and can be avoided if property owners take action to eject tresspassers. At any rate, I do not believe that the doctrine applies at all with respect to abandoned ROW's.
Some leagl turning in the case where it is brought up; and have a judge update it.
My brother's wife's mother looked at a house she liked on Long Island. She saw that there were train tracks in the 'back yard'. But they seemed quiet enough (on this pleasant Sunday afternoon in the '50s) and so she put a down payment on the house and then went and told her husband, who came to look at the house and immediately realized that this WAS THE MAIN LINE! Monday was quite a different story!
But they lived in that house until he died last summer and she had to move into a nursing home. So a train is not all that bad, and it is something that you get used to. They planted some thick hedges on their side of the fence and that was that.
Elias
This sounds interesting since I used the commissary while assigned to the city (78-84). So how will the Department of the Navy react to this?
Besides the fact that a much better station to connect to would be Garden City instead of Coubtry Life (so they wouldn't have to build a connecting spur), the ONLY people that would possibly benefit by this plan would be railfans!!!! It certainly wouldn't make any money and the few non-railfans that would use this branch would be just as easily serviced by MSBA LI BUS!!
I beg to differ about the "the ONLY people that would possibly benefit by this plan would be railfans!!!! It certainly wouldn't make any money and the few non-railfans that would use this branch would be just as easily serviced by MSBA LI BUS!! "
If they were to use LRV service, they could make a killing. Originally, the Country Life station did act as the turning point for the spur back in the day. By using LRV service, they could actually feed into the spur by running a LOOP around the area, serving the Mitchell Field office area, Nassau Community College, and Nassau Coliseum, which runs right near the hotel there too. So you see, it would be a money maker serving various groups of people if such a connection were made.
Not to mention Hofstra U., too, which is like a 10 minute walk (max) from Mitchell Field and Nassau Coliseum.
from the GS Planet Kiosk in the Port Authority Bus Terminal:
Two fire activities in the subway
2 line betwene Nostrand and Franklin in Brooklyn- service out.
BMT between 57 and Queensboro Plaza. Service out.
Anyone have any info.
Is the 2 running to Brooklyn at all?
Yesterday was a bad day too. My wife waited 30 mintues for an A or C, before giving up and taking an M to 4th Avenue, where she got a G extended to Church Avenue, before an F finally arrived.
It was a bad afternoon for the West Side 1,2,3 Riders. That Smoke condition at Newkirk cause every other No.2 train to be taken out of serive at Nevins St and the others went to Church Ave. Service resumed to Flatbush at 3:40PM but with a 5 MPH speed limit going in and out of Newkirk. Then a No.3 had a run away motor at 135 St causing delays and it was put on TK 2 South Of 96 to get the train out of the way and No.3 trains had to run on the local track from 96 to 72 St. Also the run away motors did damage to the track at 135 St so all southbound No.2+3 trains had to enter and leave 135 St at 5 MPH. At the Same time a No.3 train went BIE North of 96 St at the same.
Thanks. No does anyone have info on the BMT problem?
Thanks. Now does anyone have info on the BMT problem?
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:04:48 -0500
From: Joseph & Natalie Santucci
To: Illiana RR ,
Diesel_Locomotive
Subject: [IllianaRR] On Amtrak
I have been sitting here reading some of the comments against Amtrak on several
discussion lists. I find it interesting that there is some serious sentiment
against the agency. Apparently some of you are not very familiar with the
scenario that created this typical government agency.
Penn Central was draining cash from its coffers faster than oil from the Exxon
Valdez in Alaska. Intercity and commuter passenger services were one of the
major culprits as neither operation was generating any profits but instead,
sucking it away from the bottom line. The rest of the rail industry save the
Southern, was also losing money with passenger. RPO's and most US Mail had been
pulled from the rails by 1969. This was lucrative business and paying the cost
of operating passenger trains on many routes. Once it was gone, there was no
reason to keep the people trains as they were not returning any revenue.
The original plan was to nationalize the nation's passenger service into
RailPax, Railway Passenger Express. This agency would consolidate the passenger
train service and relieve the seriously cash strapped Penn Central of a huge
expense and perhaps save them from total collapse. It would also answer the cry
from most of the rest of the rail industry that was not being allowed to
discontinue passenger service nationwide, despite their efforts to run off the
business and despite the fact many trains operate with few passengers aboard
(with the exception of Santa Fe which continued to operate their trains like
they made big profits even though they were losing money). The Nixon
administration figured and almost planned on this quasi-government corporation
of RailPax to be out of the business in ten years anyway as it was certain
nobody would use the service.
The RailPax authorization (Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970) was passed and
the plans set forth to create the agency with a scheduled start up on or before
1 May, 1971.Those railroads that did not wish to sign on into Amtrak were not
obligated to participate. The Rio Grande, Southern and Rock Island were three of
the railroads that passed on Amtrak. There was at least one other, though it was
a smaller operation and I just cannot remember who it was. These railroads would
not get another opportunity for about ten years under the authorization but
would continue to operate their passenger trains on their own, with no
government assistance. Southern's "Southern Crescent" was still profitable for
that carrier, so they opted to remain independent and only relinquished their
passenger operations to Amtrak in 1981. The Rock disappeared from the earth in
1980 and Rio Grande also conveyed their passenger operations to Amtrak in the
early 80's.
Being that the White House half-heartedly backed the plan, they offered very
little more than absolutely necessary in the way of financial support for the
new passenger carrier, renamed Amtrak before it began operations. Amtrak being
an amalgam of the words American, travel and track.
So in the late spring of 1971, Amtrak was born. They inherited all the run down,
worn out, run hard and put away wet, passenger equipment from the railroads.
E8's, GG1's and other high mileage locomotives were conveyed to Amtrak along
with hundreds of passenger cars that had seen better days. They also inherited
the Metroliner equipment for use on the NEC. Breakdowns and failures were common
on the conventional equipment. Steam heated cars often froze up in the bitter
cold winters of 77-78 and 78-79. The high mileage locomotives were also prone to
failure and it was common to see a freight locomotive assisting an Amtrak train.
I cannot remember how many times I observed a Conrail Geep on the point of an
Amtrak train running hopelessly late.
By 1973, Amtrak was acquiring some badly needed new equipment. The United
Aircraft TurboTrains and Rohr Turboliners joined the fleet. SDP40F's from EMD
also joined the roster. Amfleet equipment developed by the Budd Company and
based upon the design of the Metroliners was introduced to Northeast Corridor
trains and an immediate success.
The United TurboTrains had their problems and eventually joined the 5¢ cigar.
The Rohr Turboliners fared better and were used in various corridors including
Milwaukee-St Louis via Chicago and Empire State corridor. Having ridden these
trains several times, I was impressed with their smooth and quiet ride. The
SDP40F's developed a reputation after several track speed derailments were
blamed on them. The 40's were equipped with steam boilers as HEP was not yet in
use on Amtrak outside the NEC.
Studies completed after all was said and done determined the locomotives
themselves were not at fault for the derailments as was originally stated and
believed. Some had felt these units, essentially SD40's adapted for passenger
service were flawed for use in passenger service and they were causing the
derailments. The final study determined it was the water storage system for the
steam boilers that created an off balance and top heavy effect. Unlike the
Milwaukee Road's F45's, the water storage system on the SDP40F's did not drain
evenly and equally. They had several water storage tanks up inside the car body.
One tank drained at a time to feed the boiler. This meant an unusual
displacement of weight, particularly around curves and at high speeds coupled
with the centrifugal forces created. As the tanks emptied unevenly, the laws of
physics took over with the water basically knocking the engines off the tracks.
Unfortunately, this study was concluded too late for the SDP40F which was deemed
derailment prone.
Host freight railroads began to restrict them to a maximum of 60 mph on tangent
track and 40 mph on curves. This killed on-time performance and hurt business.
Most of the SDP40's were recycled into F40PHR's. These locomotives were for all
practical purposes, remanufactured versions of the SDP40's. Prime movers, main
generators, air compressors, traction motors, air brake systems, control stands
and other major components were pulled from the six axle units, reconditioned
and reused in the four axle F40's, hence the "R" in their model designation.
This saved Amtrak money in new locomotive costs and in taxes as well. Those
units kept around for service and not returned to EMD were later traded or sold
to the ATSF.
As the F40's became the workhorse and backbone of the diesel pulled trains, they
showed a tremendous reliability. Over two hundred of these locomotives were
obtained. HEP was made standard to the entire fleet of Heritage equipment. The
Amfleet cars were delivered with this feature as were the Superliner cars. Steam
equipped cars that were not converted disappeared from the fleet. This offered
significant savings in operating and maintenance costs. The HEP equipped fleet
was also far more reliable.
>From early on even with the equipment acquisitions and operating cost
reductions, Amtrak was little more than a bastard, red-headed step child to the
White House. The 4R's act of 1976 mandated improvements to the Northeast
Corridor to improve performance and reduce running times between Washington and
Boston via New York. Funding for this project was separate from Amtrak's
allocation of cash from Capitol Hill. It was called the Northeast Corridor
Improvement Project or NECIP for short. As subsidies were reduced to Amtrak and
in some cases NECIP, Amtrak still would not go away as many politicians had
hoped.
In the Carter Administration, the battle for survival really hit high gear. In
the midsts of the gas shortage President Carter wanted to reduce Amtrak's route
miles by over 40% despite outcries from the public and Amtrak patrons. The bus
lobby was also crying about subsidies to Amtrak calling it unfair as the
government was subsidizing one form of surface transportation and not the other.
I guess they felt the interstate system built by taxpayers their buses used
daily for free was not a subsidy.
During the Carter years, some trains came off. Even though the public sentiment
showed Americans would be willing to ride the trains if the equipment was clean
and maintained and service reputable and consistent, Carter wanted no real part
of Amtrak.
Then came Ronnie. He saw fit to eliminate Amtrak with the exception of the
Northeast Corridor. He cut more funding to Amtrak and services were reduced or
eliminated on some routes. Reagan maintained that the government subsidized
Amtrak to the tune of $43 per passenger for every passenger that rode Amtrak.
Never mind the subsidies to the for profit (and making profits) airline industry
were actually higher, he felt that Amtrak should be wiped out completely save
the Corridor. It was deemed the NEC could operate for a profit if they
eliminated all other services nationwide. Battles galore on Capitol Hill erupted
and when all was said and done, Amtrak survived, although once again, shorted on
subsidies.
During the Clinton years, a compromise was made to have Amtrak become
self-sustaining by 2003. This was in all actuality, unrealistic and undoable.
While Amtrak cut costs, service, maintenance and employees, they searched for
new avenues of business. The expanded freight and express business was a
significant boost to their revenues, but was not their salvation. Again,
subsidies were cut, maintenance reduced with equipment failures becoming common
again.
After the September 11th attacks, Amtrak received a huge surge in business. They
were caught short in some cases as they simply did not have enough serviceable
equipment to meet all their needs. Years of reduced subsidies leading to reduced
maintenance really caught up to them.
There are problems within Amtrak. They are a government agency. Despite the
attempts, they still act and operate like an arm of the government. There is
meddling from politicians. Like every other government agency, they are at the
whim and will of the White House and Capitol Hill. They have been cash starved
their entire life. While the airline industry has been heavily subsidized for
what seems to be ever, with nobody ever complaining, Amtrak has had to scrape
and battle for their existence continuously.
On a couple of lists there has been some that seem to wish Amtrak would go away.
Over 24,000 jobs would vanish overnight if it did. Then, there are those
companies that supply Amtrak. They too would feel the effects and also have to
eliminate jobs. And those that supply the suppliers would also have to cut.
There are also some commuter agencies that Amtrak manages and operates. At least
five of them would come to an immediate halt leaving commuters forced to drive.
It would take several weeks, if not longer, to get these companies up and
running again.
Amtrak is not made up of over 24,000 happy and dedicated employees. Like every
other railroad and industry for that matter, they do posses some malcontents,
poor performers and underachievers. While I don't like to see this any more than
anybody else nor accept any excuses for such behavior, can you actually blame
some of them? Constantly wondering if they are going to have a job year in a few
months for years on end?
There have been stories posted about some employees who perform jobs outside of
Amtrak while on company time. Can you just imagine that? I suppose this never
happens anywhere else, right? I would like to have a crisp new $10 bill for
every instance I've witnessed this in my life both on and off the railroad. In
many cities in this country, it is almost routine for municipal employees to be
doing work outside the scope of their jobs, oftentimes for the private sector.
In other cases, they are performing jobs for elected officials, such as work on
their homes or even political stumping and electioneering for them. Then of
course, there is the ghost payrolling thing where politicians hire friends and
family who never actually appear for work, but get paid wages of a 40 hour week
just the same.
I have been well acquainted with several freight railroaders over the years who
have outside jobs and use the rail industry to support such endeavors. In one
case, a railroad manager was making full use of the company resources to support
his business; fax machines, photocopy machines, telephones and even the
computers. He had the audacity to install several programs in his PC at work to
deal with his outside business. And of course, there was his time spent dealing
with his outside business instead of with railroad duties.
When I worked in a factory many years ago, I knew of several people in the
office who likewise, operated side businesses using the resources of their
primary employer to achieve success. I'm certain that almost everybody who reads
this knows at least one person like this. Hell, I know some who are reading this
who are doing so at work instead of dealing with their occupations. Is there
many people out there who have never dealt with their personal lives on company
time?
You cannot fault Amtrak leadership for some employees who under perform. Some
people are just incorrigible no matter what you do or attempt to do to them.
Some of them are also politically connected and as a result, discipline does not
stick. I've heard from several friends about Amtrak employees who were
disciplined that called on their Congressional Rep for assistance on the issue
and wound up with the jobs back.
In today's real world, privatizing Amtrak will not work. The railroads wanted
out of the passenger business as it was not profitable. In our present profits
and bonuses first world of business, does anybody really think a company can
make a go of privately operated long distance passenger? It was stated by E
Hunter Harrison stated recently in Railway Age he thought they could, but with
"assistance" from the government. He claimed this wouldn't be a subsidy though.
Really? You get money from the government to operate your business that is not a
loan. What then would you call it?
The notion to fractionalize operations into regions or even state by state will
certainly not work. It would be a modern, railroad version of the Tower of
Babel. Hundreds of individuals working for a common goal but unable to
communicate with each other. You cannot even get the same standards for many
laws in this country on a state by state basis. You think they are going to
operate something like a passenger railroad efficiently? Just look at variations
of railroad operating procedures amongst all the railroads in this country.
There are numerous different philosophies from department to department, region
to region and company to company now. Just imagine 46 states each operating a
segment of passenger railroad. Or better yet, imagine the freight railroads
where few, if any managers left from the days when railroads operated passenger
trains. Most of the railroad managers today treat Amtrak trains on their lines
no better, if not worse than Washington. You want to hand over operations to
them?
Now with the current state of the economy and Wall Street, do you think
investors are going to be lining up to take over the unprofitable and marginal
operations anytime soon, if ever? If Amtrak is privatized and split up, much of
it will likely disappear within a few years. The most profitable or potentially
profitable routes will survive and the rest will become a memory. And guess what
will happen? Those that can will drive, those that cannot will stay home. Think
about the long term ramifications of those who will not travel anymore or won't
wander more than 50 to 100 miles from home.
With all the talk about the high speed trains in Europe and Asia, ever notice
that nobody dwells upon the fact that they all receive government subsidies to
survive? And also, has anybody paid any attention to what happen in Great
Britain since they privatized the passenger operations there? It has been a
disaster figuratively and literally. It simply has not worked at all and the
fine people of merry old England are up in arms. They have gotten the shaft,
injured or killed while the investors have siphoned the money away for
stockholders.
Before I step off my soapbox, should Amtrak die, it will effect more than just
Amtrak families, it will effect the entire industry including Railroad
Retirement. The loss of over 24,000 employees paying into the retirement system
will have a huge impact on it and could lead to its downfall. Then the
farsighted geniuses in Washington will have to use taxpayer money to bail it
out. Hmm, sounds like politicians think like some railroad managers, save a buck
now to spend a million later.
Tuch
Great post.
The airline industry in the US is inherently unprofitable without government subsidies like airports, runways, air traffic control, and NASA research programs. The US Postal Service is a very important customer.
Take govt. subsidies away from the airlines and every plane ticket would cost $1,000. We'd go back to the good old days, when you had to be rich to fly.
Amtrak is an essential public utility. Let's run it the best we can, and not whine too much.
Take away govt. subsidies from the airlines and plane tickets would cost $1000 - true.
Take away subsidies from every industry and reduce taxes by the amount that was taken up by subsidies - you can now afford $1000 plane tickets.
The government isn't a pyramid scheme where you give it 50 bucks and save 500 on plane tickets. It's only using your money to give you what you could've had anyway, but by making the decision for you.
Whether you give the government the money to subsidize airlines/trains/etc, or the tickets are their normal price and you use the money to pay for the increase price instead of in taxes, it's all the same, no?
The government should provide "public goods". A pure public good is defined as inexhaustable and non-rival. This means that the marginal cost of an additional person consuming a good is 0, and no ones consumption can decrease any one elses consumption and nobody can be prevented from consuming. The best example is a light house. If the public goods are left to the market, theu will either charge too much (ie > MC) or supply too little due to the free rider problem.
Granted there are very few pure public goods, but there is a scale that runs from pure private to pure public and those closer to public should possibly be provided in some way by the government. Transportation infrastructure is very close to pure public as the marginal cost of use is close to 0 and in some cases it is non-rival. When the government builds public goods it can act as a "pyramid scheem" as you put it and generate much more "welfare" than what it cost to build the good in the first placer.
You do have a valid point, that the government should provide public goods in cases where private companies would not (since they would have nothing to gain). The lighthouse scenario is a good one, because it would be difficult at best (and most likely impossible) for a lighthouse owner to charge a fee to ships that it saves from crashing into the shore; hence nobody would build lighthouses because it's not in their best interest.
However, your criteria for deciding what should be a public good (all pure public goods) won't work in all cases. Computer software can quite easily be inexhaustible and non-rival. The bits can be copied/downloaded/etc to infinitely many computers for no cost, and the marginal cost of this sharing would be zero. However, can you imagine computer software being programmed, designed, and completely regulated by the United States Government and its workers? If you think Windows is bad now, just wait...
"Take away subsidies from every industry and reduce taxes by the amount that was taken up by subsidies - you can now afford $1000 plane tickets. "
No, not really. It is true that many industries are subsidized, but government also provides services which, if it weren't for a relatively uniform system of taxation, many could not afford.
Look at the fiefdoms in Afghanistan or the tribal warfare in Africa...
Then these services should be paid for by taxes. But there shouldn't be subsidies for non-public goods.
BTW, your third-world example is poor. Those are areas that aren't industrialized. They have the economic level that the West did in the 10th Century, but with automatic weapons.
It was industry that gave us our peace and prosperity, not our government. Our government helped by securing our freedom. THAT's what taxes are for.
... Those that can will drive, those that cannot will stay home. Think about the long term ramifications of those who will not travel anymore or won't wander more than 50 to 100 miles from home.
Tuch is right on the money with this one. Right now I can drive, but I know that there will come a time in the not too far distant future when I won't be able to, or at least not able to drive nearly as far as I can in one day now. And I don't choose to fly - never have liked to, and after 9/11 I simply won't, not because of any greater fear of flying but because the added hassles at the airport are just too much. Much as I'd like to be taking the train to St. Louis tomorrow, though, I'm driving. Why? Because my wife doesn't think Amtrak can be depended on to get Jr. and I there safely and on time, and (at least from an on time perspective) I have to admit she has a point. Amtrak needs to be properly overhauled, not eliminated; once that happens it will be a reasonable option again, and I'll be able to ride in comfort rather than glaring over a steering wheel for hours on end. Will this take government subsidy? Certainly. Is that an appropriate use of my taxpayer dollars? Absolutely - and it's a far better use of them than much of what they go for now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This isn't posted on the TA web site yet, but it will probably be up tomorrow. I saw the poster an hour ago at 34th. If I read it correctly, on Sunday, July 7 (I don't know what times exactly, but it's just that one day), here's what's happening: All 1 trains will be running between 242nd Street and 34th Street only. All 2 trains (in both directions!) will be running on the East Side. All 3 trains will be running normal, but I assume they'll be going local all the way. All 5 trains will be running between Dyre Avenue and Times Square via the West Side (express, I assume).
If this is correct, eight stations (Christopher, Houston, Canal, Franklin, Chambers, Wall, Clark, and Hoyt) will be closed entirely and the 1/2 platforms at three transfer points (Park Place, Fulton, and Borough Hall) will be closed.
Usually, when similar GO's are in effect, 2 trains do operate in one direction on the West Side, so no stations are closed entirely, although confusion is still rampant. What's going on that there can't be any service in either direction between Brooklyn and Manhattan on the West Side line?
I'm confused. Please steal one of the G.O. posters and scan it for me to see. Then please go back to where you got it and hang it back up, at least before the 7th. :)
I'm sure it'll be online tomorrow, or a week later if not. The poster I saw was huge -- too large to fit on my scanner. If you're impatient, go down to 34th and see it for yourself (south end, west side, by the turnstiles).
I'm confused. Please steal one of the G.O. posters and scan it for me to see.
LOL....I love it....a railfan's brain in motion........
More like a railfan's brain going BIE (Brain in Emergency).
This is your brain. This is a railfan's brain. Any questions?
HERE IT IS
Can't help but niticing the reason. "This work is needed to restore 1/9 service to south ferry. Guess the 9 IS returning.
Peace,
ANDEE
Here are some possibilities:
Major work being done at Chambers Street (accounts for the #1 being cut short and the #2 reroute, but not for the #5 being rerouted);
Atlantic Avenue recon and switch work (still doesn't account for the #5 reroute, but does for East Side #2 service only and no #1s);
Either of the above or both, with the #5 reroute being used as a way for people from the West Side to the Bronx Park IRT branch and vice-versa.
Judging from the way the station has been all but torn apart in the last few months, the last possibility or some variant of it is the most likely scenario.
Well, this seems like a minor variant on the not-terribly-uncommon GO that sends the 5 to Times Square, the 1 to 14th or Chambers, and the uptown 2 via the East Side -- but every other time, the Brooklyn-bound 2 has run normal. (This has been due to a concrete pour at Wall and/or Fulton on the NB track, IINM. The 1 can't go to Brooklyn since it can't get back, unlike the 2. The 5 goes to Times Square so there's some sort of service from the West Side to 149-GC and beyond, and to avoid jams on the East Side with the 2 visiting.) What could possibly account for the tracks in both directions being out of service, aside from poor planning (which I find quite unlikely)?
Two assumptions then: please confirm:
1) 2 trains will be running extremely frequent.
2) 4 trains will be running LOCAL in Brooklyn east of Nevins, and will run out to New Lots.
Why would 2 trains be any more frequent than usual? They're providing the same service they always provide in the Bronx and Brooklyn, and on the East Side they're just filling in for the 5.
Yes, the 4 will be extended to New Lots and will be running local in Brooklyn.
Okay, it's posted here.
The flyer states that this is necessary to restore South Ferry service. I don't see how -- even normal service (except the Chambers 1 short-turns) shouldn't interfere with that work; perhaps one or even both directions would have to run express between 14th and Chambers.
Actually, the flyer is ambiguous -- is only SB 2 service running on the East Side? The header claims "No downtown trains," but obviously if the SB 1 is terminating at 34th, the NB 1 isn't running south of 34th.
I would infer from the flyer (maybe incorrectly) that uptown local service on the 2 is normal.
I would assume the 4 and the 2 will run express (2 filling in for 5 ) and the 6 local because the local line would be crowded.
Wow, that's good for the almost blind folks here.
Then why the implication of all those closed stations? And why not explicitly state that only the SB 2 is running on the East Side? As I said, it's ambiguous.
I was sent the link to Joe's page by a friend. I also noticed that the date at the bottom of the page was April 2nd, so that got me thinking it had probably been put up a day or so before. It wasn't too hard to make out the R-10's later paint scheme, especially if you remember the orginal: the grey body with the orange strip. I figured an old Hagstrom map could have been doctored as well. David Rogoff's map is real, except his original handwritten note on that page had been removed. It stated that: structure beyond [to the right of] the bulkhead never built, proposed only (I put the brackets in since I'm quoting from memory: map is at home - I'm at work).
I emailed Joe Brennan, telling him I liked the page, but that it certainly looked to me like an April Fool's joke. He wrote back, cagily saying that the map and page were about as real as the photo of the R-10 (the doctored image obviously, not the original photo which has been posted elsewhere in these recent 76th St. station threads).
I was going through the information here on NYCsubway.org and just found out about the Lower Level of 42 St./Port Authority Station being abandoned , Here's a Pic I scooped up from nycsubway.org.
... In any case, that's a nice photo.
So?
I never knew that there was a Lower Level and I didn't know it was abandoned, I'm just finding this out, Can anybody tell me why it was closed off? Thanks
The track served no use other than for the racetrack special back in the R9 days.
BTW Guess where the subway scene from the movie "Ghost" was filmed at?
Is it 42 St.???
Give the man a cupie doll!!
Yeah, but wasn't that track also used during rush hour for some express trains?
I think some rush hour E's terminated there at one time
Impossible; they wouldn't be able to go back north. Where the E merges into 8th Avenue, it has (had) three options: local, express, or lower level. From the lower level, it has (had) two options: local or express. (There's only one track on the lower level.) The lower level allowed trains from Queens to merge into the 8th Avenue mainline one stop later than otherwise, but that's it.
That is correct. E trains entered from Queens and then were routed over to the express tracks for service through Bklyn. to Rockaway Park. Also service to Aqueduct Raceway was started from this lower level.
Actually, I was mixed up. I knew the E trains used the station, but didn't know if they terminated there or just "used" the station. See here for a photo of the E train in the station that is from this site somewhere, but posted in a post over at TOSOTT:
42 Street Lower Level
BTW, what was the point of sending some of the E's downstairs? Why would they bother? That's why I assumed they terminated there short. But just passing through? I don't see the point.
E trains could avoid having to merge with express or local trains at 42nd St. thus avoiding potential delays. In actuality, you were merely moving the delay from 42nd to 34th St.
I still remember seeing service advisories in the early 70s stating that rush hour E trains would use the lower level at 42nd St. during rush hours.
The northern end of the lower level was used for many years as an underpass between the two upper level platforms before the entire mezzanine was incorporated into the paid fare zone. That area was fenced off from the rest of the lower level by a loose chain link fence. I used that underpass once or twice, and I'm here to tell you it gave me the creeps!
Yeah, I remember before they closed that underpass. It was like the 7th level of hell.
Peace,
ANDEE
any pics? I don't the MTA's JAnitor's keys.
The first few times I took that underpass, I thought I found the tail track on the 7 line.
Where were you when the Lower Level 42nd St. Closure thread was started? I don't think SubTalkers need to reiterate what they've already said. I learned a lot from that and I suggest you do the same.
UUUUMMMM....He started this thread...pay attention.
Peace,
ANDEE
So probably I was wrong in saying that broom sweeping and wall cleaning will restore the condition of the platforms, but I did learn a lot about them.
Change your view display to about "Four Days" or so and click on the thread "Lower Level 42nd St. Closure". I learned a lot from it and I suggest you learn from it too.
Like I've said before...I'll give you the dollar if you will buy a clue.
Peace,
ANDEE
No need to switch to four days. Just go near the top of this page and click on [First in Thread]
I think I may have one of the white with black letter pillar signs from that station. I bought it about 10 years ago from the transit museum auction. It has the same font as the 42's on the walll, and looks like it is the same size as the missing ones. I always thought it was from the 7th Ave line 42 street station, but now I'm thinking it may be from there. I guess I'll never know. I wonder what the pillar signs looked like there or on the 1/2/3 line, and if mine is from there or here.
I don't believe the IRT station signs had "42" on them anywhere. IIRC the station placards merely said, "Times Square". The BMT station still has the original "Times Sq" pillar signs. Its station signs above the platforms said "Times Square-42nd St."
Then I probably do have one of the ones from lower 42 Street. although it could have been the upper level also. Do es anyone have an old photo with the white with black letters from any of the IND 42 STreet station's pillars (I guess it could be 6th Ave also though). The lettering is the same as the 42's on the lower station's tiles. It certainly is the size of the missing signs from the pillars in the posted picture of the abandoned station.
I don't believe the IRT station signs had "42" on them anywhere. IIRC the station placards merely said, "Times Square". The BMT station still has the original "Times Sq" pillar signs. Its station signs above the platforms said "Times Square-42nd St."
I think I almost figured out where my "42" pillar sign came from, that I bought at the transit museum auction. It's none of the stations you mentioned above, for the reasons given, and I just saw an old photo from the 42 Street-6th Ave line and the signs were more square than mine. Mine fits perfectly into the spots on the pillars on the lower level's pillars. So that leaves either the upper or lower level of the 8th Ave station. I haven't seen an old photo of the upper level station that shows the pillar signs, so it could still be from the upper level.
I looked at the back of the sign today and it has "8E" written on it, presumably when it was removed, they wrote that on it. Does 8E mean anything that I can determine if it's from the upper or lower level?
The photo on the front cover of "Building the Independent Subway" has a "42" sign in plain view. I'm pretty sure the same font was used on the lower level as well.
That's right, I forgot about that book. I'll have to look at that when I get home from work. At least I narrowed it down to the 8th Ave Station. I'm starting to think it may be from the lower level, as I bought it about 10 years ago, and I think the upper level's pillar signs were already replaced 10 years ago.
I remember those pillar signs exactly as they appear in that photo. The lower level had the same signs. You could see one pillar with a "42" on its side by looking down the southernmost staircase to the lower level.
Yup, that's the sign I have. Thanks for reminding me of the photo on the cover of that book. It probably is from the lower level, as they were the most rescently - removed (10 years ago approx?) The upper level was gone way before that, I assume. It still could be from the upper level, but it does have "8E" written on the back. Maybe the 8th column from Row E of the columns.....maybe A,B,C,D columns for the 4 rows of columns on the upper level, and possibly E for the last row on the lower level?
It looked so clean back then.
The tiles look to be in good shape. They are the same tiles as Van Sicklen, Shephard, Liberty, Euclid, and Grant.....and for those who believe in ghosts....76th. Kidding aside, I assume that station was finished around the same time as the eastern end of the Fulton subway.
MY first ERA trip on a Saturday included a visit here. Note the Red light. That's what we saw that day. The track was out of service, but still connected to the system.
Mr rt__:^)
It is no longer connected to the system. Two ties crossed over each other coming southbound on 8th ave block the track lead with their accompaning red ligths.
When was this?
I think it was 1999.
Mr rt__:^)
The oddest thing about that lower level station is that is only exists on the downtown side. I once read somewhere that the lower level station was never intended to serve any real revenue purpose. Rather, it was intended to block the IRT from extending its Queensboro Line (today's 7 train) beyond 42nd Street and 8th Avenue. According to Joe Brennan, the bumper blocks marking the west end of the Queensboro Line lie very close to the outside wall of the lower level stop. The IRT would have had to dig underneath the lower level stop to continue the line which, by the late 1920's, was financially impossible for the IRT. As is well known, Red Mike Hylan, who was Mayor of NYC when the IND broke ground in 1925, hated the private transit companies and did everything in his power to subvert them. The lower level stop is another one of his methods to do so.
See Joe's Abadoned Stations site for more on this.
I think that Todd Glickman has verified with his altimeter that the 7 station is well below the lower level 42nd Street station and that other reliable sources have confirmed the same.
Well, it must be collaborated to a reliable source first.
Anyone ever think of starting at street leveland coutning the steps they go down to reach the platforms of the #7 line or the 8th Avenue line? (I know you cannot access the lower level of the 8th Avenue station, but is one able to count the steps from the area still accessible?)
For the people in here that would be too simple.
LOL
Typically a subway level is about 25 steps, or 15'.
The 7 platform is 4 levels down (probably roughly 100 steps) from 7th Ave and 42nd St:
- mezzanine above the 1/2/3
- 1/2/3 platforms
- small mezzanine if you take the stairs down from the 1/2/3 platform
- 7 platform
The lower 8th Ave platform is 3 levels down (probably roughly 75 steps) from 8th Ave and 42nd St:
- mezzanine
- A/C/E platform
- lower level platform
The fact that it's been measured as 41' down indicates that the lower level platform isn't more than a typical level down from the A/C/E.
What's unknown is how much lower 8th Ave is than 7th (Manhattan tends to slope downhill from 5th Ave toward the rivers.
On the other hand, whatever that slope is, presumably the 7 track extension can also manage that same slope downward as it goes westward.
So it sounds like it just fits, but there's certainly room for a few feet worth of error here.
The problem with this solution is that the street changes altitude with respect to mean sea level.
...and one could easily determine the street level by looking at USGS maps.
As someone else said, it would be too difficult for the folks in here to figure out.
The USGS 60' contour passes through the intersection of 41st St and 7th Ave. The USGS 40' contour passes through the intersection of 41st St and 9th Ave. One would presume that that street level at 41st ST and 8th Ave would coincide with 50' above mean sea level.
The 1:24,000 maps have 10' contours. Take a look at
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4511806&e=586230&s=25&symshow=n&loc=New+York
Interpolating between contours, 7th Ave and 41st appears to be at about 55' altitude, and 8th and 41st at 43' altitude.
More evidence that it's a close call.
"More evidence that it's a close call."
But it is a point that is Moot (maybe).
If they want to extend the (7), it is a simple matter to remove the lower 42.
Elias
If they want to extend the (7), it is a simple matter to remove the lower 42.
Nah, leave it in place to support the Upper Level then stick big holes in the side walls for trains to run thru it. That'd be a very interesting railfanning experience!
The 7 line would probably go thru the IND lower level at 42/8 to get to 11 Ave. If the 7 line were to go under the IND lower level, the 7 line roadbed would probably have to be rebuilt (redug?) from Grand Central to do that. And when it comes down to it, it'll be cheaper to go thru the IND lower level. The rest of the IND lower level would have to be sealed up.
"The 7 line would probably go thru the IND lower level at 42/8 to get to 11 Ave."
Actually, the (7) line runs on 41st street at that point, and you would only need to begin the downaward slope AFTER 7th Avenue (why disrupt the Lion while you are working.
BUT!.....
While you are at it, be sure to make the extension a LOOP service down to Javits Center on 11th and back to 41st Street on 10th, thus no train will have to reverse direction.
Elias
The 7 train is on 41 St. Agreed. But it would have to go thru the lower level platform at 42/8 station. And if the downward slope begins at 7 Ave, trains would have to go down a steep embankment to go under that lower level. Then of course go up a steep embankment cming back. The 7 trains may not be able to do it.
I don't think there is any reason that they would go through all the trouble and expense of going under the lower level, when the station is abandoned anyway. There is no reason to keep it. It will never be used again as a station. WHy it was even put there is a mystery anyway. It was useless from the begining. Now if it involved a historic station like City Hall, I would feel different. But in this case, I don't feel there is any need to save it, as long as it is in the way anyway.
I think the reason the lower level was put there in the first place was as the subject line above says: "Hylan's Revenge".
I guess the higher ups at TA will make plans for building a ramp or slope so that the #7 line can go under that lower level. But when they discover the expen$e of it and the likelyhood the ramp or slope would have to start at Grand Central or 5 Ave and tie up the line for at least a year or 2 with g/o's, They'll just bust down the wall and push it thru.
Even if the lower platform DOES block the "7" Train that doesn't in any way prove that Mayor Hylan had them deliberately do that. First of all, I don't think he would do something that drastic to stop something that really wasn't going to happen anyway. Do you think the height of the depression would be a good time for the IRT to expand? And if they were going to expand there were alot better places to expand than to have the "7" go further westbound. Also I'm sure they realized that eventually the city would take over the privates eventually so they would be hurting only themselves. Besides, wasn't Hylan's beef with the BMT (or BRT) anyway??
I think the real reason for the lower level was exclusively for the "E" Train to use. For some reason they probably didn't want a cross platform transfer the same way there isn't one at 34th Street on both the IND & IRT and Atlantic on the IRT. They probably figured it would go smoother if people stayed on their original train and they probably figured it wouldn't make much of a difference northbound.
So why wasn't there a lower level under the uptown platform? If it's good for the customers in the morning why not for them going home?
Hylan, as the story goes, was a train operator on the BRT. One day he was driving his train and barely missed running down a BRT supervior. Hylan didn't see the supervisor because he was reading a law book instead of looking where he was going.
So why wasn't there a lower level under the uptown platform? If it's good for the customers in the morning why not for them going home?
Since the lines are diverging instead of merging, what would be the point.
Southbound, the E train wouldn't have to wait for the A or C before entering 42nd.
Since the lines are diverging instead of merging, what would be the point.
From a passenger's point of view it'd make more sense - separate platforms for different destinations, rather than separate platforms for the same destination.
I counted steps for BMT, IRT and 7. Ind will be tonight.
IRT uptown to Lower Mezz,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 21 steps (middle stairway)
Lower Mezz to 7 Plat..................... 18 steps
IRT Uptown plat to upper mezz........... 18 steps (Northernmost stair)
Upper mezz to BMT, S upper Mezz.......... 5 steps
Upper BMT Mezz to lower BMT Mezz......... 10 steps
BMT lower mezz to BMT Downtown Plat...... 20 steps
Coming tomorrow:
IND Uptown to IND mezz and Westernmost Stairway to 7. If the escalator is stopped I can count those stairs.
As promised:
IND uptown plat to IND mezz .............18 steps
Passageway to BMT/IRT to 7...............22 steps (Westernmost stairway)
I've heard of many different 'attacks' on the IRT & BRT/BMT that have been attributed to Mayor Hylan. However, the only real attack that is documentable is Hylan's sponsering of all sorts of legislation that forced the IRT & BMT to maintain the 'nickel' fare. Clearly, the city under Hylan would be able to unerwrite the 5 cent fare but caused ruin to the two private companies.
I've heard of many different 'attacks' on the IRT & BRT/BMT that have been attributed to Mayor Hylan. However, the only real attack that is documentable is Hylan's sponsering of all sorts of legislation that forced the IRT & BMT to maintain the 'nickel' fare. Clearly, the city under Hylan would be able to unerwrite the 5 cent fare but caused ruin to the two private companies.
Of course, it goes without saying that the primary attack was in the building of the IND and the selection of the routes, most of which were designed to directly compete with existing IRT & BMT routes.
Someone's got to do a CREDIBLE altimeter reading or depth reading to settle that question once and for all. I've seen the works of vengeful politicos and have no awareness of exactly what Hylan's motives were. Clearly through the planning of the IND, and the holding to the nickel fare, he'd done more than overkill to ensure the destruction of the "traction interests" already. But then again, I've seen some politicos in my own realm that were so angry with something or someone that it wouldn't surprise me if there was such a petty plan in place in addition, just to make certain of revenge. Overkill at the taxpayer's wallet is something I've seen done.
But it would definitely settle things once and for all if there was an elevation map. I'm sure SOMEWHERE in the annals of the TA there is a structural elevation map of that complex that's credible. Dunno if it'd be worth the time and effot to get it though. Chances are Empire City Subway (or what remains of it) would be the definitive answer since I would expect wiring and piping to be more of an obstacle than the IND lower level to boring through that area.
Altimeters measure pressure and even if perfect can be affected by different humidity levels.
What's really needed is counting steps (I believe all NYCT steps are pretty much the same height), and using the USGS topo map to come within a foot or two of the altitude difference between the street level locations.
But the rough guesses all suggest it'll be really close and might even be a question of how steep a slope you're willing to have in the 7 tracks west of the TSQ platofrm.
By the way, going straight through the platform as a grade crossing may not work either because the 7 tracks may be too low to permit that without a steep uphill west of TSQ.
Yeah, but there's a mathematical "queering factor" to that approach as WELL ... further disqualification as a method. Not all subway ramps or mezzanines are PARALLEL to gravity ... in other words, they ain't FLAT. Prior to "handicapable" sensitive structures, not every platform or mezzanine was actually PLUMB. Many are on a tilt of less than one degree. Any compensation for that in climbing steps which may or may not be precise? No offense, but all of these are subjective evaluations, as accurate as any civil service "performance review" and just as dangerous in applicability.
If we want a REAL answer, it will only come from "Empire City Subway" the telco antecessor ... they have HONEST, MEASURED depth to all subterranean infrastructres since they supervise the PIPES and other subterranean clearances. If ANYONE has the answer, it'll be these guys. They've sunk rulers into the ground everywhere and KNOW the numbers. Whether they'll share them with us is another story. I'm SURE the TA also has the correct numbers, same "will they or won't they" under FOIL ... but the tooth is out there - measuring as we've collectively settled on will NOT achieve truth for any number of factors.
You're right. Any measurements we do will probably have a possible error of 5 feet or more and therefore make it too close to call.
GPS?
GPS can't work underground because you need a direct line of sight to four GPS satilletes. Even then, GPS is only accurate to about 10 ft. It's possilbe to be more accurate, but the military won't allow any more for cilivians because of security purposes.
I hope NO platform is parallel to gravity, that'd be a hell of a climb :-) You meant to say perpindicular. Even with ADA, no platform should be completely flat. They have to be sloped a little to allow for drainage. I don't think you'd like to have all that urine puddle up. 1% (they don't use degrees for stuff like this) slope sounds about right. On roads, we have to put in a 2% crown on striaght sections. Since tile is smoother, you can use a shallower slope.
I consider Mr. Glickman a very reliable source.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks, Andee, but even meteorologists can be wrong (when speculating
about the subway of course :-). We'll see soon enough, assuming
the 7 extension happens in our lifetime.
I was talking about Chemistry 101. STP. Standard Temperature and Pressure. Quite hard to accomplish at 2 places under the city especially when you're trying say they're the same depth. Maybe if he had a barometer too. :-D
And Peter Dougherty refuted it, but I'll let you decide who to believe.
Actually, reading Peter's post, I retract my statement about it not being in the way, since altimeters (especially compact ones) are subject to the vagraries of weather, especially the air pressure in an enclosed area. Survey maps and diagrams are much more accurate.
In fact my "watch altimeter" RELIES on air pressure to operate.
The variable I had trouble dealing with was the change in altitude (height above mean sea level) of the surface streets from 7th to 8th avenue. And so I am pleased that Peter D. has come up with more substantial information.
I guess when (if?!) the 7 is extended west, we'll all see!
Yep, the mystery of 76th Street might also be resolved, too (duck, run :)
--Mark
Joe Brennan's site suggests that the IRT tunnel leading from Times Square runs almost directly beneath the IND tracks at 8th Avenue and 42nd Street. He even includes a photo suggesting the existence of a bridge over the IRT tunnel. So I have to doubt the information that the Times Square tunnel is 8 feet below the 42nd Street lower level stop.
Even assumuing that it is, the lower level stop could have thwarted IRT extenstion because if the IRT wanted to extend under the lower level stop, it would have had to perform shoring and bracing operations for the lower level station above it. Perhaps that extra cost made extension prohibitively expensive.
An 8 foot difference may not disprove the Hylan legend is all I'm saying.
It would still have to do shoring if only the upper level was built.
The presence of the lower level makes it easier to extend. Some excavation is already complete!
How far is the current 7 Times Square station from the wall of the lower 42 Street? If they extended the 7 through the lower level, would they be able to extend the 7 platform easily into the area where the lower level of 42 Street is now to make a much easier transfer to the 8th Ave Line. It might make the 7 Times Square platform very long, but transferring between the 7 and the 8th Ave line would be much easier, and the area below the 8th Ave station is already excavated, as it is the abandoned lower level.
I think the distance is about a block. Maybe a little less. It would be larger than the passageway that is there now from 7 to 8 Ave. It would also be a good climb, Lower level to upper platform to mezzazine and then to street.
If you stand at the north end of the downtown platform and look across to the uptown tracks, you will notice that they appear to cross a bridge before arriving at the uptown platform. It has been said that that bridge is over the bumper blocks of the #7. Also, if I remember correctly the #7 Times Square station has a very high ceiling. Therefore, it seems likely that the 7 is only half a level below the IND lower platform, and the last time I checked, trains still can't duck.
The west end of the Times Square platform on the No. 7 is still a good 450-500 feet from Eighth Ave. If there is a nine-foot difference in elevation between the TS platform on the 7 and the lower level platform at Eighth Ave., if the MTA ever does extend the line west the existing tail tracks could be redone, and a drop of an additional 10-15 feet over a distance of 450-500 feet would not be a major problem. The 7 could go underneath the lower level platform and continue towards Ninth Ave. (once you get west of Ninth though, you have the problem of both the Lincoln tunnel and its access roads plus the Amtrak line out of Penn Station to contend with, if you continue the line across 41st St. in order to sent it to the Javits Center).
if the MTA ever does extend the line west the existing tail tracks could be redone, and a drop of an additional 10-15 feet over a distance of 450-500 feet would not be a major problem.
Indeed the maximum gradient on the Flushing Line is already 4.5% (in the Steinway Tubes). if this were replicated between Seventh and Eight Avenues, if your figure of 450-500 ft is correct, a 20'3" to 22'6" drop could be made. This would drop the Flushing Line about two levels under the Lower Level at 42nd St. Of course, a two level drop isn't needed, merely one level, so only a 2.25% grade is actually needed - not too bad for the Flushing Line.
Even if (as is mentioned in another section of this thread) the street level at Eighth Ave. is about 10 feet closer to sea level than the street level at 7th Ave.-41st St. -- which would put the lower level of the 42nd St. station roughly on the same level at the 7 at Times Square -- there's still enough room there for a gradual enough grade to take the Flushing line under the lower level platform at Eighth Ave.
It's interesting to debate the subject of whether or not the lower level does block the 7, but in the end the two lines are far enough appart so that if the city and the MTA decide to run the No. 7 train to the Javits Center and any proposed Olympic stadium next door, they will have the option of either going under or going through the lower level platform (either of which IMHO, would be cheaper than that alternative plan proposed of tunnel under the 1/2/3 lines on Seventh Ave. between 41st and 34th Streets and going west from there).
there's still enough room there for a gradual enough grade to take the Flushing line under the lower level platform at Eighth Ave.
More than likely they will go right through the lower level station. There is no need to go under the station, as it is abandoned anyway. It's basicaly a fairly useless station to begin with. I don't really know why it was built anyway. Why would you want to send some locals downstairs, just to send them back up again after the station, and have people going up and down stairs for no reason? The Hylan's Revenge theory seems like the only logical reason the station was put there to begin with. Aside from the extra fare Aqueduct specials that ran from there, the station is relatively useless.
More than likely they will go right through the lower level station. There is no need to go under the station, as it is abandoned anyway. It's basicaly a fairly useless station to begin with.
If the Flushing Line were bored through at exactly that level, there would be stairs already in place for an 8th Av Flushing Line Station, giving an easier connection to the (A)(C)(E) Lines and the Port Authority Bus Terminal. So not entirely useless. In fact, it'd be quite cool as it'd become the IRT's re-revenge!
So tragic, it actually brings tears to my eyes. For real!
When are the collective brain cells at the NYCT (really the MTA) going to do something about the Atlantic Ave heat problem?? Some elderly or sick person is going to drop dead soon from the absolutely unbearable heat/humidity punch there. With the r-142s and r-62s more powerful AC units, a bad situation has become much worse. God help the people who need to use that complex when it gets to 100º or MORE!!! How 'bout the Grand Central Station solution?
Yeah, I agree with you. Many stations are really hot, but I think I remember Atlantic being pretty bad. They should punch more holes in the side of the LIRR terminal and let more "cool" air in. It would at least help with air circulation.
I noticed there was some cool air blowing down from the ceiling in the GCT station as I was waiting for a #4 train on Sunday. Was that really air conditioning, or is there just cold water running through the large pipes (which I also noticed) on the ceiling? -Nick
There really is A/C in the GCT 4/5/6 station. It was a pilot project or something. Must have failed becuase they haven't done it anywhere else yet. I think there was one other station in the pilot program though i forget what it was.
An air conditoned subway station would require both turnstile and platform doors (actually, walls with doors) to really work, along with ventilation ducts, to vent the bad air, but more importantly to introduce clean cooled air.
Something like this will likely happen with the downtown post 9/11 redo (can you imagine what the air in the corridor *under* B'way/Nassau will be like without AC?).
Powerful fans would help, but even here you need platform doors, just to keep the steel dust, track dirt, rodent droppings, etc., out of our lungs.
WTC PATH was air conditioned. So is all of WMATA.
In theory. When I was in Washington Memorial Day weekend, the platforms didn't seem particularly cool.
In any case, it's a lot easier to design a station or an entire system from scratch to include air conditioning than to retrofit air conditioning into an existing system.
Also, keep in mind that the ceilings in Metro stations are much higher than those on the NYC subway; all that heat has somewhere to go.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The fact that you experienced warm(ish) stations in Washington over Memorial Day weekend probably has more to do with when WMATA decides to turn on the A/C than with whether or not it really works.
When I lived in Washington, I noticed that a warm-to-hot spring would result in very hot Metro stations, and that the problem would suddenly disappear sometime in June.
Mvh Tim
Oh, I'm used to NYCT's air conditioning policy, which is, I think, to allow it to be turned on automatically (if it's warm enough) at any time of year. As you know, the air conditioning on the R-62A's is quite detectable, and it's often running in February. You won't hear any complaints from me.
Wouldn't WMATA want to send a positive impression of the system to the many holiday weekend tourists?
You'd think, wouldn't you? ;-) Of course, A/C on trains is a different issue from A/C in stations.
Actually, I think I recall them starting to do this as a cost-saving measure in the early 1990s when they were starting to get really cash-strapped. (This was about the same time that they started running two-car trains in the late evenings, which also pissed me off.)
Mvh Tim
I am pretty sure WTC PATH was AC'd more as a matter of how cool air sank down from the AC'd upper levels of the WTC than of design. I suspect the architects/engineers realized this and made appropriate ventilation decisions during construction.
How do they air condition subway platforms, such as the old WTC PATH station? Doesn't all the cold air escape into the tunnels?
Really? I remember it being kinda HOT down in the WTC PATH station.
It wasn't a pilot program. GCT upstairs got air conditioning, so the subway station got a bone -- at least that's what I read at the time.
As for hot stations, is Atlantic worse than 72nd? (Could anything possibly be worse than 72nd?)
I cannot speak from direct experience, but from what I've read, the Lex is probably the hottest (or at least used to be) mainly because of the way the tunnels are sealed.
Herald and Times Square can be awful.
Um, 72nd on the 1/2/3 is on the very same original tightly sealed line as Lex south of 42nd.
Times Square is nowhere near as bad as 72nd. The problem with 72nd? The only ventilation consists of six ultra-narrow staircases leading directly to the interior of a building. It's a very tight station, with narrow platforms and large crowds.
I use Atlantic Avenue daily, and although it is bad, its not the worst I've experienced by far. Atlantic is a pretty big station so the air moves around. There is usually a breeze (though a hot one) coming in from the RR terminal next door, which has several open portals to the street because of ongoing renovations.
By far, the hottest station I've ever been in is 14th Street on the Lex. That cozy little original IRT station becomes like the surface of Mercury on hot days. Not only does the station roof have layers of waterproofing (thanks to Augie Belmont) that nicely holds in the heat, but the frequency of a/c'd trains that enter the station blowing out hot air makes it even worse. NYCT has tried to alleviate the situation by installing ceiling fans but they just blow the heat around.
I agree that Union Square is bad, but why are you telling me it's worse than 72nd by comparing it to Atlantic? Come on up to 72nd and then tell me how you feel.
Grand Central 4,5,6 platforms used to be brutal, where temps would exceed 100 degrees (I measured it myself).
Now that those A/C's are installed it is much, much better. Personally I think GCT was a big success. The system should be installed elsewhere, in Times Square and Herald Square, since those stations get very hot (BMT 34th st is BRUTAL).
As far as fans go, they do nothing but blow the hot air around (like in Union Square).
Does anyone know about this Light Rail Trainset for NJT???
"This is a mockup of the proposed Adrantz diesel light rail car on display at Riverside, NJ on November 20, 2000. This line will run from Trenton to Camden when finished."
I cannot see your photo.
I posted a second Topic, check again
Does anyone know about this Light Rail Trainset for NJT???
NJT Light Rail
That looks like a diesel-powered variation of what now runs on the Hudson-Bergen line. Since the Camden-Trenton line has neither catenary nor third rail, that's what you need.
It's the new diesel LRV that will be used on the Trenton-Camden line. It's based on the German Railways (DB) Class 646 diesel LRV. The 646 order was started by ADtranz, but since Bombardier acquired ADtranz, they finished the order and will build NJT's diesel LRVs.
I think the MBTA might also want to consider these vehicles or some other diesel LRV (Bombardier Talent, Siemens Desiro, Alstom LINT) for the Fairmount Commuter Line (South Station to Readville) in Boston. There's a proposal to convert Fairmount into more of a rapid transit, high-frequency operation and using diesel LRV's would make it more efficient to run this line and make it attractive to riders who don't use the existing, inconvenient commuter service.
I also think ConnDOT might want to consider diesel LRV's too. I read something interesting about ConnDOT planning to build a busway between Hartford and New Britain and a proposal for another one between Hartford and Bloomfield. Both proposed busway routes run alongside mainline railroads for all or part of the way. If they want to use railroad ROW's, why not put something on them that runs on rails? A busway is simply a road for buses, but cars and trucks could very easily drive onto them. I think ConnDOT may be overlooking the possiblity of using smaller-capacity diesel railcars as a solution to improve transportation in metro Hartford.
Here is a link to the DB 646s running on their home turf. Don't look too bad, at least I'm looking forward to the new line, Patco to SNJLRTS to NEC to New York, I can't wait.
The link is to http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/de/diesel/dmu/646/pix.html
With Amtrak's perpetual crisis being the hot topic of discussion these days, I thought I'd chime in with my own ideas on how to improve passenger rail service in the US. It's easy to make political barbs about the situation (something I've done quite often), but it rings hollow without some constructive ideas for improvements as well. So here it goes.
First, here's a few presumptions that I'm proceeding from:
Nationwide passenger rail is a crucial component of the public infrastructure, no less important than the highways, airports, or subways.
Amtrak, in its present form, will never achieve self-sufficiency.
An antiquated and congested infrastructure is a major factor in rail travel's problems (both passenger rail and freight).
The freight railroads have no interest in taking over passenger rail operations.
High-speed passenger rail will be competitive with the airlines for distances of less than about 500 miles.
Long-distance passenger trains, with improvements, will be competitive with driving for distances greater than about 500 miles.
Infrastructure
First of all, I'd suggest that all major railroad ROW's be taken over by eminent domain and operated by the government. Similar to the highway system, tracks would be regulated and maintained by a combination of state and federal governments. Dispatching would be operated by some agency such as the FRA, similar to how the FAA regulates the airlines. Additionally, the infrastructure and signaling would be upgraded to a consistent set of national standards.
Amtrak and the freight railroad companies would continue to own and operate their own rolling stock, but would no longer be restricted to their own trackage. The railroads would pay a fee to operate in certain "slots", much like how the airlines operate with a finite amount of airspace. The government would have to spend a substantial amount of money upfront to acquire the ROW's, but I suspect the freight railroads would be happy to free themselves from having to pay for maintenance and property taxes. They'd probably let their ROW's go for fire sale prices in return for being able to continue using them. Additional funds could be raised by issuing bonds and increasing taxes on gasoline and airline tickets.
Long-distance passenger rail
First of all, I think it's a crucial part of our national transportation network. September 11th and its aftermath was proof of this. There is a proven demand for long-distance passenger trains despite all of Amtrak's woes, and it is a viable alternative to the gridlocked highways and airports. Additionally, it serves many rural areas that have few other options. Most people on the Empire Builder aren't going from Chicago to Seattle; they're going from somplace like Fargo, North Dakota to Wolf Point, Montana.
With significant upgrades made to the infrastructure (including, ideally, electrification of major lines), passenger trains would be able to operate with minimal interference. Also, with freight railroads now operate over any tracks they choose, redundant ROW's could be consolidated and/or dedicated for passenger use. Ideally, long-distance trains using coaches based on the successful Surfliner design could operate at up to 110 MPH and with much less interference from freight trains.
Amtrak may still not be totally self-sufficient under these circumstances, but freed from having to maintain and pay property taxes on the infrastructure, I suspect other carriers may be more likely to enter the passenger rail business and Amtrak could be spun off as a private company. If not, then Amtrak should receive adequate financial support to continue these operations.
Like the airlines, I think there could be a market for multiple rail carriers if they receive the proper incentives. There could be low-cost carriers that specialize in cheap, no-frills rail travel (i.e. Southwest Airlines), in addtion to luxury "land cruise" lines that spare no expense. The bottom line: Allow these to flourish if there's a market demand for them, but don't allow Amtrak to die if there isn't.
Regardless of what happens in the rail industry, it goes without saying that Amtrak management and labor will need to do their part to increase their own accountability and efficiency, even if Amtrak continues as a quasi-governmental agency indefinitely. At the very least, it would give the company some much-needed credibility. I'm not an MBA major, so I'll let other people figure out how to accomplish that.
High-speed regional rail
In addition to traditional long-haul passenger trains, we need a viable network of 200+ MPH high-speed trains operating on heavily-used corridors (NEC, California) and connecting major cities within a given region (Midwest, Texas, Southeast). These trains would use separate ROW's for the high-speed portions of their journeys between stops, and could use shared ROW's at slower speeds near terminals. These dedicated ROW's could be newly-constructed along mainline freight ROW's or, in certain cases, along the medians of interstate highways. In other cases, these high-speed ROW's could be upgraded freight tracks made redundant by government ownership.
These dedicated ROW's would be held to stringent federal standards, much like how interstate highways are held to certain design standards. These standards would include track grades and construction, grade crossings (preferably, all high-speed lines would be completely grade-separated much like the interstate highways), cab signaling, and electrification.
The high-speed trains themselves could be operated by Amtrak, regional authorities, or even private companies if the market allows, but the FRA should establish some nationwide standards for high-speed rail modeled after the successful systems in France and Japan. I'm not saying the trains should be turned into tin cans, but I don't think we'll ever have a true high-speed system based on 1800's technology. There can be a happy middle ground that incorporates the proactive safety systems found on the TGV with the reactive crashworthiness standards of the FRA; the two approaches don't need to be mutually-exclusive. However, the FRA will need to learn to think outside the box when developing these standards, and be open to newer technologies that cut down on weight but not on safety.
Articulation is a good example of this: The railcars are articulated on French TGV trains, which makes the trains much stiffer than their US counterparts, and keeps the cars inline and upright during a derailment, in addition to cutting down weight by eliminating extra trucks. There's nothing about this that would preclude trains from being built to FRA crashworthiness standards. Even the slower-speed long-distance trains (the Surfliner-based coaches) could be articulated, cutting down on weight, increasing stability at higher speeds, and increasing interior space on the lower levels of the coaches. This would involve a sacrifice in some flexibility in making up consists, but I think this could be overcome with good planning and regular maintenance.
Conslusion
Of course, this would take considerable political willpower, a lot of money, and some real leadership. Unfortunately, I don’t see any of these things coming from the current climate in Washington. However, I don’t think this is impossible. Over the past 50-some-odd years this country has built a nationwide superhighway system as well as a world-class airport system, so there’s no reason we can’t also have a world-class rail system. I think there could be a large degree of puplic support for such a project, as it combines the best features of the public and private sectors. However, I think public support for passenger rail is largely untapped, as it's not exactly a hot-button issue in most areas. This is where some leadership and advocacy need to come in.
Thoughts? Comments?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Maybe for High Speed Rail for the Long DIstances, we should have a High Speed TGV Trainset similar to the TGV Duplex, just a thought.
David
Nice piece. I remember reading a TRAINS magazine article pushing for government ownership of the right of way just as the gov created the Defense Interstate Highway System, created the FAA and air traffic control system, and improved the waterways for river traffic. The rails is the only privately owned transportation system in the USA.
Phil Hom
The government would have to spend a substantial amount of money upfront to acquire the ROW's, but I suspect the freight railroads would be happy to free themselves from having to pay for maintenance and property taxes.
Having the federal government take over all freight ROW's would deprive counties and localities of property tax revenues. In some locations, the revenue losses could be significant. Now, the federal government could make payments in lieu of taxes to the counties and localities, but that would just be shifting money from one level of government to another.
I'm not saying that the federal takeover of all ROW's would be a bad idea, but the tax implications would have to be considered.
And I really dont think the government has the money to buy the ROWs - the stockholders would have to be fairly compensated and would tie it up in courts for years. The government initially offered Penn Central 500 million - but the court settlement was for 2.1 billion and that was YEARS ago!
some good deas there.
Electrification. YES YES. Years ago a study surfaced briefly shwing that the UP could generate enough juice from wind along the Overland Route Main line to run the entire (before SP/DRGW and CNW) While the numbers may be a bit different the wind has not died down in Wyoming. If the wires went up on the heavy use mains (Water Level Route, Golden State/Sunset Route, the ATSF 'intermodal transcon'. etc) along with cab signalling more sidinds/mains we would have a better rail network for ALL. With 'regen' braking and wind generated power for some of the power we could stop hemoraghing money to the OPEC 'friends'.
As to public ownership/open access I am neutral. There are good arguments on both sides. What I am sure of is the need for a sigle national standard for signals (yes that means the end of the noble CPL's on the B&O), cab signals everywhere, tax changes which force retention of multiple tracks rather than encouraging single travking stupidity.
The Amtrak or sucessor operators MUST have real, ironclad priority dispatching with serious fines against the host rail organs.
On the level of service front BRING BACK THE SLUMBERCOACH. I don't care about articulation one way or another--I have ridden in articulated "Daylight" cars and can't recall noticing any difference in ride quality. And the workers need to be seriously reeducated. The put on the headphones and zone into walkmanland as soon as we clear Eugene routine needs to end. So also the retreat to the dorm overnight--meaning NO crew at all in the coaches overnight.
As to routes HSR etc. There are many gaps in the current service pattern--try Cleveland to Columbus or Cincinnati. HSR is viable IMHO on many corridors--the studies have been done time and again--we need to build them already.
enough rant
Electrification. YES YES. Years ago a study surfaced briefly shwing that the UP could generate enough juice from wind along the Overland Route Main line to run the entire (before SP/DRGW and CNW) While the numbers may be a bit different the wind has not died down in Wyoming. If the wires went up on the heavy use mains (Water Level Route, Golden State/Sunset Route, the ATSF 'intermodal transcon'. etc) along with cab signalling more sidinds/mains we would have a better rail network for ALL. With 'regen' braking and wind generated power for some of the power we could stop hemoraghing money to the OPEC 'friends'.
I would go as far as saying any reform of Amtrak should specify that route be electrified.
Germany alone has 10,000 miles of electric track. The size of the US presents no problem to electrification. The Milawaukee Road ran a spartan and efficient 3kv system for decades. Double stacks are a problem, though.
Re: 200+mph operation. Currently, I believe there is only one line being built for this, in Spain. There is no real technical barrier, rather, the barrier is one of money - the electricity needed to run a train at 200+mph is quite immense. And any line approaching that speed (and in reality, anything over 125 mph, though practically, anything over 100mph, period) hasAnyone here know the effective amount of horsepower a 737's twin engines produce durring the takeoff roll, and initial climb (at which point, speeds are already exceeding 200mph and rapidly increasing)?
It's enough to light a small city! In fact, the engines used on the early model 737s are now sold by Pratt as electric generating stations.
Granted, a plane's not as 'clean' as a train, but I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of power needed to run at 220mph is getting up there.
The result? It's technically possible - the French have demonstrated the ability to safely negotiate even track switches at 240mph (!), but currently, electricity is a bit pricey for it.
But, there's no reason 186mph or 200mph operation can't be done, and it's a viable proposition.
BTW - at least one aircraft maker has developed a way to make (small) fuselages out of carbon fiber. Very light, very strong. Maybe composite technology could be employed in HSRs in the US to allow closer to FRA Tier I regulations, while maintaining the all important light weight? Tier I has quite a bit of useful parts to it, but needs 'tweaking' (i.e., inclusion of energy management in lieu of shear staic compressive strength. Come on guys, this is 2002. It's a dynamic world, let's stop designing for a static world when the average hand calculator has more computing power than Univac did...).
Tier II is just totally pie in the sky, counterproductive, and pointless thinking. Does a train car really need two redundant door operating systems and emergency release handles and a kick out window that can pass a fattie through it, and emergency roof hatches? In addition to every window being an emergency one and of a minimum size? Do windows really need to be able to deflect 9 mm rounds fired at point blank range? Without damage?
There just reaches a point where you're asking for ridiculous things.
I haven't done the math, but I strongly suspect the cost of a right of way permitting 200 mph, amortized over 50 years at 6% interest, is far more than the cost of the electricity to run the train for that entire 50 year priod.
It's enough to light a small city! In fact, the engines used on the early model 737s are now sold by Pratt as electric generating stations.
I don't think that a 737's engines can generate 11 megawatts of power (consumption of Atlantic City) but air travel is an incredible waste of energy.
Granted, a plane's not as 'clean' as a train, but I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of power needed to run at 220mph is getting up there.
A TGV Atlantic is up in the 220 mph range and they have about 12-16000 horsepower or about 15Kw. The gas turbines they install at land-fills are about 50Kw. A small trash to steam plant is 5-15 Mw. As you can see, a rail vehicle is just a drop in the electrical bucket even assuming that the train is at full power at crusing speed. Once they ramp up to 220 all they need to do is balance out internal friction and air resistance. Probably no more than 5kW.
Once they ramp up to 220 all they need to do is balance out internal friction and air resistance. Probably no more than 5kW.
Not entirely true. Traction is usually power equipped for a gradient of around 1 in 200 at maximum speed. This means if a train was rated for 125mph, it can maintain 125mph up a 1 in 200 gradient under the best rail and supply conditions. Thus on level track, they have to be driven at around notch 6 to maintain maximum speed. On 1 in 100 track, they will not be able to maintain the maximum rated speed.
Propelling a train on the ground is very energy-intensive, but probably no more so than propelling a truck along a highway or a plane if you compare it in terms of energy consumed per trip. A 500 mile trip by train compared to a plane is more energy efficient per hour, but not per mile.
Anyway energy is the lease of our concerns when discussing whether to electrify. The economics concerns far outweigh any emissions or energy issues.
AEM7
"Anyway energy is the lease of our concerns when discussing whether to electrify. The economics concerns far outweigh any emissions or energy issues."
They belong in the same discussion. They are not as separable as you present them.
Electrification offers the advantage of versatility - the electricity can come from oil, coal, nuclear, hydroelectric, wind etc. etc. Part of what makes French rail service reliable, schedule wise, is the very reliable and stable, low cost base-load power EdF provides the network with.
I don't think that a 737's engines can generate 11 megawatts of power (consumption of Atlantic City) but air travel is an incredible waste of energy.
An FT-8, which is a JT-8D, without the fan, and with a free power turbine, can generate around 20Mw in electric generation service. Early 737's had 2 JT-8Ds on them.
BTW, 12,000 hp is about 9 Mw. The conversion, assuming 100% motor efficiency, is 746 (745? 750? It's 746, I think) watts per HP. If we ignore the motor efficiency and just work on input power to the traction motors, we can use this.
IIRC, a 707's engines were claimed in the late 50's to be have power equivelent to that needs to provide electricity for Baltamore. There's not a very easy pound thrust -> hp conversion, just a 1:1 approximation at about cruising speed (IIRC).
The J-57 (JT-3/JT-3D) was the engine that probbably put practical jet aviation on the map. They're still used, too, IIRC. Pratt made a zillion of them in, starting in 1952. The JT-8D used in 727s and older 737's dates to the late 50's (they're still made, too. With the elegant, if weird Hamilton-Sunstrand hydrualic fuel controls.) Primative by today's designs, but still a good engine. The PW600 is their latest one (was in testing when i was in East Hartford, I saw the prototypes. I missed the very low, rather long flyover with the 707 test plane they did, though :: It's hopefully a much better engine, though in reality, all 3 comercial engine maker's engines perform about the same.
The turbopumps on the Space Shuttle are rated in shaft hp, though. About 50,000 hp for a pump that's small enough to fit on a coffe table.
"The turbopumps on the Space Shuttle are rated in shaft hp, though. About 50,000 hp for a pump that's small enough to fit on a coffe table."
The metallurgy accomplished for those pumps is nothing short of incredible.
Ok, from Pratt's page. I understated the fuel pump's shaft HP...
Fuel Turbopump:
Speed: 36,200rpm
Discharge Pressure: 6,400psi
Flow: 162lb/sec
Shaft Horsepower: 72,900hp
Turbine Inlet Temp: 2,000R
Oxidizer Turbopump:
Speed: 23,700rpm
Discharge Pressure: 7,250psi
Flow: 1,161lb.sec
Shaft Horsepower: 25,850hp
Turbine Inlet Temp: 1,700R
Here's what they look like. Small, huh?
Uhm..........YEAH ;)
Stuart
Amazing stuff!
I was factoring in some fudge cause I didn't know the exact TGV Atlantic hp. I also go w/ 1kW = 1hp as I refuse to let those metric ass holes burden me with complex math.
It's the metric math that's easy. It's the English math that's hard.
It's the metric math that's easy. It's the English math that's hard.
It'd be fairer to say that the Metric System was designed for easy addition, whereas the English System was designed for easy division. Both have advantages and disadvantages.
Since division is harder and addition, easy division is better.
Since division is harder and addition, easy division is better.
That is my opinion too, but I am aware that many people would disagree with that. The metric system works very well if the unit is so small you don't want to divide it. However, that can lead to rather big numbers. (Did you know I'd be a millionaire if I were a Turk?)
My family would be billionaires.
Metric division is much easier. All you have to do is move the decimal point.
Metric division is much easier.
If you want to divide by 2, 5, or multiples thereof.
Multiples of 3 are a pig in metric.
The problem is on our hands.
Stupid fish.
As an Addendum,
The CF6, in it's gas turbine LM#### model is capapble of providing 25000+hp, that works out to 18,650+kw, and that's just for the basic LM2500. GE claims that the basic LM2500 has a thermal efficiency of 37% and a horsepower rating of 33600hp [25,065.6 kw], while the LM2500+ makes 40500hp [30,213 kw] with a thermal efficiency of 39%. The biggest of all, the LM6000, can develop 57,330 Shp [42,768.18 kw] with a thermal efficiency of 42%. Anyone wanna put that in an Locomotive?
The CF6 is found in the 747, DC-10, MD-11, 767, A300/310, and C-5, under the guise of the TF39. The seagoing core of the CF6, the LM2500, is found in the ships of the [American] Spruance, Ticonderoga, Kidd, Arliegh Burke, Oliver Hazard Perry, Pegasus, and Supply classes, the Japanese Kongo destroyers based on the Arliegh Burke, the Autrailian Adelaide, Spanish Santa Maria, and the Taiwanese Kwang Hua classes, all based on the Oliver Hazard Perry class, and the indigenous designs of the Canadian Halifax, Iroquis and Spanish Helicoper Carrier Principe De Asturias all also use the LM2500 as a powerplant. It is proven design, dating back to the late to mid 1960s, and according to FAS.org, "Currently more than 870 LM2500 gas turbines are in service on a variety of cruisers, frigates, destroyers and patrol boats for more than 24 international navies."
I guess I'll end this rather off topic post, but first some links:
GE Marine Engines
FAS Article on the LM2500
HP-KW conversions used here
OK, let's make some guesses.
Mass of 737 plus fuel = 50K kilograms (= m).
Goes from 0 to 200 mph (90 m/sec = v) in .6 mi (1000 m = d).
With constant acceleration, time to accelerate is 2d/v = 22.2 sec.
Energy gained in those 22.2 seconds is .5*m*v*v = 200 Mjoules.
Power = 9 Mjoules/sec = 9 Mwatts = 9000 kilowatts.
At $.05 wholesale cost per kwhr, the equivalent electric power would
cost $450/hr.
This is large but not exorbitant.
You failed to account for work done against gravity (i.e. lift). Try again. And anyway crusing speed of the 767 is more like 580mph.
"And anyway crusing speed of the 767 is more like 580mph."
Not relevant. The relevant calculations stem from dead start to V2 (rotation speed). Soon after rotation, lift-off and gear-up the airliner's engines are throttled back some.
"Tier II" is for the "Money Train" run.
Government ownership of the RoW's is a BAD idea. The primary user of the RoW should own, maintain, improve and dispatch as they are in the best position to make the most efficient decisions. A government agency would make something like building a siding subject to years of approval processes and studies and bids and counter bids and public hearings, etc. Railroads don't compete with eachother, they compete with trucks. W/ govermnent ownership the rail companies would have no ability/incentive to make capital improvements that would get traffic away from trucks. The whole industry would stagnate. If the government owned the RoW then rail transport as a whole would become completely dependant on political whims. Do you know many truck drivers there are out there? What if they all called their congress peson and said "All those rail improvements are going to put me out of a job" and the congressperson goes and gets rail RoW funding cut cause he's all gung ho for the road lobby. Now the big old inefficient government RoW administration has a lack of money. The RoW goes to shit, rail travel becomes less and less compeditive w/ trucks and its 1975 all over again.
A government agency would make something like building a siding subject to years of approval processes and studies and bids and counter bids and public hearings, etc
Good point, however, you don't have public hearings when NYCT wants to add switch at a certian place, or when the DOT wants to repave a road. MARTA hires one contracter (after a bidding) to do all the work it needs for the duration of the contract. Nationally, you could have one contracter to do all the work needed for a certain region. You really won't need a public hearing unless something you want to do goes outside your ROW.
I agree. Let's say the new publicly-owned railroad wants to double-track and electrify a certain segment of track. How would that be any different if, say, Union Pacific wanted to do the same thing?
People fight airport expansion because planes are loud and filthy, runways take up huge amounts of space, and there's the percieved risk that a plane could drop out of the sky and land on somebody's house. Although I'm strongly in favor of expanding O'Hare, these are legitimate beefs.
With a railroad, especially an electric railroad, trains are much cleaner and quieter, and people don't seem to be as concerned about a train derailing and landing in their backyard. As long as the improvements don't involve an expansion of the ROW, I can't imagine anybody bitching and complaining. But if they did, I think a public agency would be in a better position to fight off such challenges. How much NIMBY opposition was there when the NEC was electrified to Boston?
-- David
Chicago, IL
How much NIMBY opposition was there when the NEC was electrified to Boston?
Do you think New London, Westerly, Warwick, Pawtucket, Attleboro, Roxbury really have any clout?
Now you try to electrify the Inland Route through Berlin, Windsor, Windsor Locks, or the CSX Boston Line through Newton, Wellesley, Natick, Palmer and you watch what happens.
(To those of you who don't know -- poor people live in the former set of towns, and rich people live in the latter set of towns.)
AEM7
Maybe so, but other problems exist with electrifying the Inland Route as well. There are lots of railroad crossings on between New Haven and Springfield. CSX ownership of the the Boston & Albany line is another big factor. Would they allow catenary to be strung up over their line? If trains go from Boston to New York over the Boston & Albany line, they must go a long distance out of the way west to Springfield then turn south to go down the Inland Route. The Shoreline Route with all of its curves through Providence and New London looks more direct by contrast. The most direct route from New Haven to Boston would be one that parallels I-91 from NH to Hartford, then I-84 from Hartford to Sturbridge, then finally the Mass Pike from Sturbridge to Boston. Unfortunately, no such rail line paralelling I-84 exists, so they had to use the most direct route that exists. That is the Shoreline.
Not much. But the state of Connecticut tried to gum up the works for a while in the course of a pissing contest with Amtrak.
It is a hobby. People are board so they complain. compulsive complainers.
Vaild point.
Now that people know who I really am, I suppose I could address this:
First of all, I'd suggest that all major railroad ROW's be taken over by eminent domain
This probably won't be a bad thing at all. In Massachusetts, all the commuter rail trackage (including the NEC up to the State Line, except the Worcester Line between Rt. 128 and Worcester) are owned by the Massachusetts EOTC. There, government ownership of RoW works very well.
and operated by the government.
This is where things can get a little messy. Operated? What do you mean? Operation of infrastructure is a complicated matter, and can be roughly divided into three main functions, plus a few other ones:
Dispatching
Maintenance
Capital Improvement
The dispatching function, as has been proven time and again, is basically inseparable from train operations. Even in the airline world, several major airlines are progressing towards vertical integration. For example, at Newark, which is an airport unsuitable for running a hub operation due to its being prone to weather-related disruptions, Continental control and FAA control are set-up right next door to each other. In the event of a weather-related capacity reduction, FAA allows Continental to "pre-sequence" their departure flights. i.e. FAA is allowing Continental to dispatch their own aircrafts, on FAA infrastructure, by the back door -- with the FAA handling only flights with other carriers. No other airlines enjoy this privilege either at Newark or elsewhere. Since the adoption of this pre-sequencing, weather related delays at Newark has reduced by more than 30%, despite an increase in the number of flights. (See J. Cleveland, Communication and Control improvements at Newark International, JATL, 1999).
To me, this clearly shows that in a capacity constrained system, dispatching by bureaucracy is simply impossibly inefficient. There are other quotes I can use from British Rail people and who will tell you that without dispatching rights, you basically cannot run the railroad. If you think that a railroad can be operated by a bureaucratic dispatcher who follows set rules, you're obviously poorly informed regarding rail operations.
As for the maintenance function, we have seen what happens when the State tries to take charge of maintenance operations. Just look at Amtrak's MoW department.
The railroads would pay a fee to operate in certain "slots", much like how the airlines operate with a finite amount of airspace.
Again, this shows how little you really know about the aviation industry. With the exception of four airports in the USA (EWR, JFK, LGA and ORD to be precise), there are no slot allocation at airports. This means American Airlines could schedule 10 departures from DFW at 12.00 if they wanted. The FAA will simply have to deal with ten 757's all trying to taxi out at once. Usually, the FAA decides priority based on rules such as whichever pilot contacts the control tower first. This is not an efficient way to operate infrastructure and to allocate a very scarce resource (i.e. takeoff capacity).
You still owe me an explanation as to why my comparison of the WTC structure and an overpass is wrong. I happened to run by a traffic engineer today, and he didn't have a problem with what I suggested. Admittedly he isn't a structural engineer, but traffic engineers generally have on-the-job training dealing with structures when designing a layout for an interchange. Over to you, David.
AEM7
Regarding dispatching, you bring up plenty of examples involving air traffic, but I don't know how applicable these would be on the railroads. I actually don't have a very strong opinion about who does the dispatching, as long as a passenger train capable of 110 MPH doesn't get stuck behind a freight train going 15 MPH. But I think the solution there also involves upgraded infrastructure (i.e., more tracks and sidings) in addition to dispatching. I'd be curious as to what some other people here on SubTalk have to say on that matter before I comment further.
Maintenance in my plan would follow the model of the highways, with state DoT's contracting out maintenance with federal funding assistance. Again, I'm not picky about who actually does it, as long as it gets done. The Amtrak MoW example is moot, since Amtrak as a whole is on the brink of bankruptcy and was designed to fail from the start. That's the problem we're trying to solve in the first place.
About the "slots", if I understand you correctly, you're telling me that my idea won't work because it's not the system that most airports use, but that the system most airports use also doesn't work. Please clarify.
As for the structural design of the WTC vs. a rural highway overpass, I don't owe you squat. I didn't respond because A) it seemed to be a pointless pissing contest, B) I've been busy with other things, and C) it's off-topic for this forum anyway. But just to indulge you:
You are correct in your description of the WTC's structure, and also in the fact that overpasses also use a basic "post-and-lintel" (horitontal beams supported at each end by structural columns) structural system. But that's where the similarity ends.
In a nutshell, the WTC had redundancy of structure because it had numerous, densely-spaced columns supporting the weight of the building. These columns were also connected together in such a way that, if a certain number of these columns were compromised, other columns would support the load. Also, the beams in the WTC that connected the interior core with the exterior columns were lightweight steel trusses. These turned out to be the weakest link of the chain, as these were the first members to be weakened by fire and collapse, setting the progressive collapse in motion.
In contrast to the WTC, the highway overpass in Texas was supported by relatively few, large, and widely-spaced columns (only three or four at each end, according to the photos I saw), instead of many smaller ones. It would have been almost impossible to knock out one of those massive columns, but if that had indeed happened, the overpass would have come crashing down because the structure is not redundant; each column supports a much greater proportion of the weight than any single WTC column. Additionally, the beams supported by these columns were much heavier and more massive than the WTC's trusses, probably made of either large-guage steel I-beams or pre-stressed concrete (I coudn't tell from the photos). They're designed to support heavy traffic in all weather, rather than office furniture indoors.
I'm not neccesarily saying that one structural system is better or worse than the other; they each have their own pros and cons. The redundancy of the WTC structure saved countless lives, but ultimately still succumbed to fire. If the WTC had a structural system more like the Citibank Building -- supported by relatively few massive concrete columns instead of many small steel columns -- there's a possibility the columns could have withstood the impact of the plane and, being concrete, also withstood the fire. But that's purely speculation; it's impossible to know for sure.
Just to recap:
WTC: Many small densely-spaced columns, each column relatively easy to compromise, but the stakes are lower.
Overpass: A small number of widely-spaced massive columns, almost impossible to compromise, but the results would be catastrophic.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks for your explanation of the WTC v.s. overpasses. I learned something today.
About the "slots", if I understand you correctly, you're telling me that my idea won't work because it's not the system that most airports use, but that the system most airports use also doesn't work. Please clarify.
There are basically a few ways of dispatching:
No Dispatching/Adhoc dispatching -- Highways, Airports (except slot-allocated airports), Railroads (UP)
Rule-based Dispatching -- Airports (EWR, JFK, LGA, DCA), Railtrack, Railroads (CN System)
Traffic-management-based Dispatching -- Not really been implemented anywhere, but there are examples of this on most systems when the dispatchers "bend the rules", e.g. when NYCTA decides to express a train, when Conrail decides to pull over a coal train to let the intermodals pass.
Obviously, the examples aren't all that clear cut, but you get the jist. No dispatching is OK when traffic levels are low, because the capacity misallocation that occurs don't really matter since capacity is essentially free. Rule-based dispatching is great if nothing every went wrong and every train ran according to schedule. But as Tuch would say, plan A never had a chance. Traffic-management-based dispatching is supposed to be the smartest system, but has not been particularly effective when the Class I's tried to do it, because they lack the information and the analytical support to do it. Information is lacking because dispatchers often don't know exactly where the train is. Analytical support is lacking because a dispatcher often deals with an unexpected situation by running through a set of rules (which can be train priority, or simply whoever contacted him first, etc) without much thought to the consequences of his/her actions with respect to track capacity. The more experienced dispatchers will know how to dispatch to minimize delays, because they would have learned things through experience, but obviously the best thing to do is to have a decision support system.
The argument against having an independent authority dispatch either the trains of the planes is basically this: because the dispatching authority is independent, it has no reason to speed up trains for anybody, and all too frequently that leads to rule-based, ineffective dispatching by some bureaucrat who has no idea what is going on out on the interlockings because of his actions. It leads to conflict between the operating authority and the dispatching authority, because they have conflicting interests. When the two parties belong to the same company, at least it is clear who is going to get screwed: the "foreign" trackage-rights train. When the dispatcher is a government authority, everybody gets screwed.
As for maintenance, I really don't have any objection to maintenance subcontracting. However, in Britain maintenance subcontracting has not worked because of two things: (1) inadequate supervision by Railtrack due to the loss of engineering expertise, and (2) inappropriate contracts that were standards based and not performance based, resulting in unaccountability on the part of the contractor's actions. In the US Highways Department, the same problems occur. Talk to a highway enginner about pavement thickness. In highways, contracts are let based on a technical and not a functional specification, and the result is that the contractor goes for the cheapest way to meet the minimum spec. Sometimes, the minimum spec isn't even met. Of course, inspections are politically unpopular because usually the contractors are well connected. So that leads to substandard highways. On the highway, this means a few potholes here and there, or a bridge that washes out before it's supposed to (but nobody cries squat because they think it's a "natural disaster" and no investigation is done). On the railroad, this means a few broken rails and a few embankment slippages, which in turn means derailed trains and people die.
So, before I support any scheme that subcontracts maintenance, I would suggest the following criteria must be met: (1) The infrastructure owner must maintain in-house maintenance and engineering expertise. Thus the owner must carry out maintenance on at least 40% of the system (or any other large percentage), and must thoroughly check the work of the contractors. (2) The contract must be performance-based (e.g. broken rail targets, alignment targets, etc), as to align the interests of the infrastructure contractor with those of the train operator.
Then there's the problem of how to deal with renewal-maintetance schemes. That's another story. But in short: when do you call something a renewal and when do you call something a maintenance? What if you replaced 115 lbs/yd rail that are nearly broken with 140 lbs/yd rail? Is that renewal? Is that routine maintenance? Is that capital investment? Contracts there can be pretty messy. Easier if the infrastructure authority would actually manage this, i.e. if the infrastructure authority tendered each job on a competitive tender basis, without resorting to the Railtrack model where ALL the maintenance is contracted out on a cost-inclusive basis. That's how you generate lawsuits.
AEM7
On railroads maintainence standards are easy to set and maintain. This is because of the exhaustive definitions of "Track Class" set up by the FRA and all of the accompanying inspection requirements. If FRA man comes and knocks your track from class 6 to class 5 you're in deep shit and everyone knows exactly what sort of maintaince you've been doing. The maintaince agreement basically has to say "keep the track up to class 6 standards and inspect the track as mandated by law".
What is the definition of Class 5 and Class 6 rail? Are ther Classes 1, 2, 3, and 4 as well?
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_00/49cfr213_00.html
FRA part 213, section 9
AEM7
Most of it is covered in FRA Regulation Part 213. Here is a link:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_99/49cfr213_99.html
Everything is covered, from rail weight, balast, ties, vegitation, drainage, horizontal and verticle rail movement, etc.
"But I think the solution there also involves upgraded infrastructure (i.e., more tracks and sidings) in addition to dispatching. I'd be curious as to what some other people here on SubTalk have to say on that matter before I comment further."
Good freight service, and cood passenger service are no longer compatible with each other.
It was different 50 years ago when almost all trains, both passenger and freight were SCHEDULED trains. Freight trains are no longer scheduled, they all run extra. I have a BNSF timetabel for our branch, and it gives information about sidings, capacities, signals, restrictions and stuff. But there is not one single train listed.
If the grain elevator in the next town wants a shuttle train (50-100) cars, he calls the dispatcher, and when one is available it appears on his sidding. It's his responsibility to fill it up within x number of hours in order to get the shuttle rate.
Freight is responding rather well (albeit with a lot of bitching about proce from the farmers hearabouts) to their own business. A single scheduled train screws up their operations to a farethewell. Much more complicated when it is a Scheduled Passenger Train, that runs a speeds incompatable with the rest of the trains.
BNSF has no trouble routing thei own trains in and out of the pockets, but they do not have to worry about a fast train overtaking a slower one.
Additionally Freight lines are always repairing their tracks, crews are on out stretch of (former NP mainline) track every two or three years. Repair crews like to work in the day time and sleep at night. The Railroad just bunches its trains up at the main depots either side of the repair during the day, and then turn them loose at night.
I'm sure that AMTK passengers would just love to cool their heels in someplace like RUGBY ND for eight or more hours. Even if the train wasn't held, there might be yellow flags for a stretch of ten or more miles, which at 10mph is a one hour delay!
ANYTHING THAT RESEMBLES better HSR passenger service MUST BE ON ITS OWN ROW! Even the Empire Builder cannot keep a schedule agaianst a freight railroad. IT JUST ISN'T POSSIBLE!
The Empire Builder is the BEST we can do out here, we are glad to have it, and understand perfectly its operating parameters, and consider anything that arrives in CHICAGO on the RIGHT DAY to be ON TIME!
Now, just you go and try to schedule that!
Elias
Intermodal trains are scheduled. Well at least they are on the NS former Conrail divisions. Back in Conrail days you could set your watch to "TV-time".
So I understand, but there are no intermodal trains on the old NP Main, they run up in Minot on the old GN main.
On our track we have unit coal trains going east, and unit hopper trains going west. We also have unit grain train in both directions, and an occasional mixed freight and a local.
The idea seems to be to put the faster trains on the GN and the heaver trains on the NP. Anyway, on this branch... No scheduled trains.
Yes some intermodal shippers like UPS and HUNT demand (and pay for) faster service on reliable schedules, others (like steamship companies) can tollerate a more casual (and cheaper) approach to scheduling.
Elias
With the exception of four airports in the USA (EWR, JFK, LGA and ORD to be precise), there are no slot allocation at airports.
I believe DCA is also slot-controlled.
>>> Nationwide passenger rail is a crucial component of the public infrastructure, no less important than the highways, airports, or subways. <<<
Once you start with that assumption and accept it as the revealed word of God, you clearly limit discussion and end up preaching to the choir. Last night after reading your post and surfing the web during a period of time with severe sun spots I came across the following:
From the archives of Canal Boat Talk (circa 1830):
"The maintenance of canals between New York and the western city of Chicago is a crucial component of the public transportation infrastructure. Without it people would be dependent on the new fangled device of a boiler pulling coaches on tracks, with all the inherent dangers of boilers blowing up and even if they do not blow up, spewing glowing cinders all over the riders....."
From the archives of Stage Coach Talk (Circa 1902):
"Stage Coaches are a critical component of the public transportation infrastructure in the West. Horseless carriages are too unreliable to be used to transport people and their luggage between cities not serviced by trains...."
From the archives of Ocean Liner Talk (Circa 1956):
"Speedy transatlantic passenger ships are a crucial component of the public transportation infrastructure between the United States and Europe. People cannot be expected to squeeze themselves into aluminum cylinders and risk their very lives flying across the vast ocean. Airplanes do not allow the passengers to carry the trunks of clothing necessary to sustain a transatlantic traveler..."
I have to go now, there is a mob of railfans at the door yelling "Heresy!" and threatening to ...
Tom
nice quotes, and you are right that 'revealed truth' has a shelf life. BUT some of us 'believe' we have the democratic right to choose mode of transport. If you grant that, and you are aware that ALL transport is subsidised, then the question of Federal/State expenditures for rail are no different from expenditures for highways or air travel infrastructure.
We are currently having a huge fight in the Bay Area over filling part of the bay to increase runway throughput at SFO. I believe my tax money (and yours) would be gar better spent on HSR essentially eliminating LAX/SFO air commuting in favor of rail. That decrease in usage would render the current runway throughput adequate for decades to come. IMHO rail transport is less environmentally destructive than air travel--thus air travel should be 'rationed' rather than favored.
You may of course believe differently, but I am willing to buy you the hammer to nail your theses to the doors at LAUPT.
Unfortunatly, Tom has a point. What is the full lifecycle cost of a high speed rail connection from SFO to LA (including new ROW and rolling stock) vs. the incremental cost of extending the runway?
Rail may be the ecologically right way to go, but in any kind of short or middle run by which costs are measured, it could easily be much more expensive.
Alo, unfortunately, the extended runway can be used to get people anywhere, while the rail project can only move people along a certain corridor.
au contraire,
1. The ecological concern should trump the sgort term dollar numbers--unless of course you are the Sun King (ares moi le deluge).
2. They are not talking lrngth but width and lateral separation. The point is if you threw out the "local" planes SFO hjas plenty of excess capacity for the overseas/transcon market you are concerned about.
Further, since 9/11 (yes its even shorter term, but) SFO has dropped five slots in usage rankings. WE DON'T NEED the capacity upgrade.
3. Neither Oakland nor SJ are even close to maxed out--it is long past time given the geography of the popilation to restrict SFO to overseas flights with all others spread around--you do know (?) that Oak is closer to the financial district of SF than SFO.
4. IMHO transport as with ANY other public infrastructure/service should be a mix of citizen preference/scientific-technological allocation. Of course the problem is always the method gor assaying the 'science'. That said, I believe the gallons per revenue seat mile are much higher for air than Acela. That sats to me we shoulf ration air use. If you and others wish to keep shipping container loads of US dollars to our friends the OPEC folks, you may lobby to do so, I will lobby against.
"The ecological concern should trump the short term dollar numbers"
I actually agree. But unless the ecological concern is blatantly obvious even to the people who make investment decisions, it usually doesn't. I suspect it's far easier to make the "let them use Oakland" argument work than to get a high speed rail service.
Incidentally, (a) making cars even more efficient and (b) introducing cost-effective wind power across vast expanses of those northern portions of the country that are relatively flat (from eastern Montana to Western New York, where farmers need some extra income and no one worries about visual pollution or bald eagles being killed by the blades) are far more effective ways of keeping the OPEC folks at bay than reducing air travel. Not that trains are irrelevant, they're just less critical.
"I actually agree. But unless the ecological concern is blatantly obvious even to the people who make investment decisions, it usually doesn't. I suspect it's far easier to make the "let them use Oakland" argument work than to get a high speed rail service."
That's where "ecotaxes" and pollution credits (or debits) have a role to play in recognizing the economic cost of pollution.
"introducing cost-effective wind power across vast expanses of those northern portions of the country that are relatively flat (from eastern Montana to Western New York, where farmers need some extra income and no one worries about visual pollution or bald eagles being killed by the blades) are far more effective ways of keeping the OPEC folks at bay than reducing air travel."
That depends on just how cost-effective large scale windpower is. Its promise as a high energy producer has always been overestimated by the wind industry. And you badly underestimate the impact on land usage. While I am not against using wind turbines, covering acres and acres with them will be costly to our environment as well
While David Vartanoff would rather commit hara-kiri than agree with me, I'll go with the high speed rail corridor (land-efficient) hooked up to an electric grid fed by 1400 MW nuclear plants (space efficient, environmentally benign, esp. the new passive-safety advanced designs) and able to transport large numbers of people in comfort.
"While I am not against using wind turbines, covering acres and acres with them will be costly to our environment as well"
I'm against wind turbines in beautiful mountain scenery. But you don't hear the farmers of North Dakota being NIMBYs. They'd love to have some spare income that would allow them to farm the 90% of their land the turbines wouldn't use up.
Wind turbines are down to about $1 per watt fully installed. With variation in wind speed of course you don't get that 1 watt all the time. But still, there's no fuel cost. You just have to spend the management attention to make sure they function properly all the time. That costs money, but less than buying fuel.
Issues such as icing and them being torn to pieces in gale force winds have been addressed.
Nuclear would be OK if we had a good place to put the spent fuel. Many scientists are very dubious about Yucca Mountain. But even not counting fuel storage, the life cycle costs of nuclear are pretty high. Nuclear can be safe, but the costs for insuring safety are huge, both in terms of personnel and capital. Don't forget the cost of hardened terrorist-proof storage facilities for temporary storage of spent fuel before it gets shipped to Yucca Mtn.
"I'm against wind turbines in beautiful mountain scenery."
But that's where you get the best breezes! You see the paradox.
" But you don't hear the farmers of North Dakota being NIMBYs. They'd love to have some spare income that would allow them to farm the 90% of their land the turbines wouldn't use up. "
You're assuming that that only 10% of the land would be required, that additional land would not be impacted even if the turbine were sitting on it, and that farmers really know what they're getting into. Wind energy has never been deployed at scale like that, so these are unproven assumptions.
"But still, there's no fuel cost. You just have to spend the management attention to make sure they function properly all the time. That costs money, but less than buying fuel."
You left out the issue of energy storage, lubricants, and other components needed for maintenance. Still, I tend to agree with you there. I think there's a big upside in this sense.
I'll take your word for it that weather-worthiness has been engineered in.
"Nuclear would be OK if we had a good place to put the spent fuel. Many scientists are very dubious about Yucca Mountain."
False. Yucca Mountain is one of the most intensively studied places on earth, and the general question of waste disposal is political, not scientific. A false assumption is that waste disposal needs to be perfect for thousands of years. This is nonsense. Though research consensus is that it is very likely that Yucca Mountain offers this level of safety, all we really need is a good, workable, monitorable waste disposal plan which will be safe for a time span which allows for technological turnover. 75-100 years ago we were using flouroscopy for fun in shoe stores, to measure feet. Today we know a lot more about harnessing radioactivcity safely. 100 years from now new disposal and reprocessing methods will come into the fore, and waste disposal will be even safer.
That, plus the fact that the worst critics are folks whose scientific credentials have nothing to do with nuclear engineering or health physics or anything else; a few are dishonest and have proven to be an embarrassment to colleagues.
" But even not counting fuel storage, the life cycle costs of nuclear are pretty high."
No, actually it is far lower than than for fossil fuels. The capital costs are higher, but the operating cost is very low. Not all plants reach optimal levels of efficiency, to be sure, and some were operated poorly (Rancho Seco, Zion, Millstone until recently). But if you examine the actual operating records of plants such as Wolf Creek, Shearon Harris, WNP-1, Oconee, Arkansas Nuclear One, St. Lucie, Palo Verde, Seabrook and Diablo Canyon, you'll see capacity factors and availability (translation: reliable base load power) that would leave managers of fossil plants and even so-called renewable facilities drooling.
"Don't forget the cost of hardened terrorist-proof storage facilities for temporary storage of spent fuel before it gets shipped to Yucca Mtn."
The actual risk is overstated. Still, perception is important. All the more reason to ship the fuel to Yucca pronto.
""I'm against wind turbines in beautiful mountain scenery."
But that's where you get the best breezes! You see the paradox. "
You are wrong. There is much more wind out here on the Prairie than there ever was in the mountains.
With the size of modern windchargers, one tower can power a small city (when the wind is blowing correctly). They would not be spaced as closely as those seen in California. Maybe only one or two per square mile if that.
The other porblem with wind is that it can help youse guys out with a few peek demands and such, but the system must be designed to provide ALL of its needs elsehow when the wind in not blowing. We can under cut you on price when we have it, but you still have to be self-sufficient.
Elias
Assuming for the moment you are correct in terms of potential wind-capture on the prairie (I will withhold judgment - still skeptical about that), and even if you are not correct about that, your point about peak power is an excellent one.
Perhaps a pairing of technologies is best. Pair up a good base load generator with a good peak load generator.
For example, hydroelectric dams and nuclear plants are great for base load power, but not designed for answering peak demand. So when you pair up Hoover Dam or Wolf Creek plant with enough peak power (wind generators, natural gas or combined-cycle plants, gas turbines for real emergencies) then you're all set.
"Assuming for the moment you are correct in terms of potential wind-capture on the prairie (I will withhold judgment - still skeptical about that), "
That's rather simple. Just come on out and visit us. Just like a locomotive has to slow down to go over the mountains, so does the wind! Thundeer storms and such other weather patterns as what generate wind are more common here than in the mountains, but not as radical as the patterns further south where they spawn tornados.
Just check the weather maps and you will see.
Elias
«Perhaps a pairing of technologies is best. Pair up a good base load generator with a good peak load generator. »
IMHO either hydrogen production for fuel cells or using fuel cells for storage would work.
Arti
Hydro-dams can meet Peak demand loads. They basically build special containment reseviors, (there's one on the Susquhanna at Muddy Run), and when there's a storm or lo-power usage, the dam uses its excess power to pump water up into this hi-elevation resevior. When demand increases or water drops, the water is let out of this resevior and spins additional turbines.
Yes, that is correct - up to the point when you've used up that reserve. But the dams are still mainly base load suppliers.
Diablo Canyon
Diablo Canyon 2, why can't you be more like Diablo Canyon 1?
"But that's where you get the best breezes! You see the paradox."
Yes you get the strongest winds on top of M.t Washington. But you don't need 50 mph winds. 15 mph will do just fine for modern turbines, and North Dakota AVERAGES 15 mph. The western tier of NY does that well on the ridge tops too.
"You're assuming that that only 10% of the land would be required, that additional land would not be impacted even if the turbine were sitting on it, and that farmers really know what they're getting into."
There are actual sizeable projects in Iowa and near Syracuse where the 10% (or less) applies. Farmers in Iowa seem to be happy. The noise, such as it is, doesn't bother their corn.
OK. Good.
Now figure out how much power they've been getting from these turbines and where the peaks and troughs are. How helpful is the peak load supply (ie is it available at peak times) and how reliable? Is there a significant baseload contribution in relation to what the grid needs(probably not, but look anyway)?
Those are nice examples and laudable projects. The experience so far still mandates reliable baseload as a partner. There are only three forms of energy today and in the foreseable future that can do that on any significant scale.
There is another plan to build a huge 500 mill windfarm off the shore of Cape Cod, between it and like Nantuckett. Appearently Enviromentalists and NIMBY's are up in arms about looks and the impact of the cables on the costal floor. Go figure.
Sueprise, surprise. NIMBYs against windmills. That happened in Long Island too.
The NIMBYs motives are always suspicious, but the decision not to build is not always wrong, as poster AIM pointed out.
Its funny, whenever something SHOULD be opposed, like a new strip mall or a new housing devolopment or hi-way widenings, the NINBY's are nowhere to be found. The result is greater sprall and the loss of irreplaceable forrect, farm and open space.
Environmentalists are against it? They'd rather have a nice coal-fired plant that pumps tons of green house gases and oxides of nitrogen into the air, but leaves the poor sea floor alone?
Ugh!
Mark
LIC residents NIMBYd the replacement of a dirty, polluting generating plant with a higher-capacity gas-fired plant which would eliminate particulant emissions (soot) and produce more electricity at lower fuel consumption.
People are hypocrites.
Everybody knows you get electricity from an outlet in your house. Who needs windmills and power plants?
Everybody knows you get milk and eggs from the supermarket. Who needs cows and chickens to wreck your idea of living in the country house you just bought?
Everybody knows it's a hassle to drive in a traffic jam to work. So why build subways when you can just add four lanes to the highway and drive a Humvee for safety?
Everybody in Westchester and Suffolk knows the people who take care of your back yard, clean your house and do odd construction jobs work cheaply and often cooperate with efforts to avoid paying taxes (for fear of deportation). But they don't need places to wash up, eat lunch or use a bathroom. And heaven forbid that they should seek to live within commuting distance of work. No, they should just disappear when quitting time arrives.
I think that a good %age of the low and mid level waste can be just sun to the bottom of the Marinarrias Trench out in the Pacific. 35,000 feet of water is a hell of a lot of shielding and would stop any radiation dead in its tracks. Any "leakage" would be so dilluted that living in a granite house would pose more of a cancer risk.
People seem to forget that we nuked the fuck out of this country back in the 1950''s with above ground tests going off every week or so. Ditto for Russia. All that happened was an increased cancer risk in like towns that bordered the test ranges. People get so paranoid, but if they just looked at history they would see that even a lot of nuclear activity dosen't really do all that much.
The point about the Marianas Trench has much truth to it. Two US nuclear attack subs sank, the Thresher in 1963 and the Scorpion in 1968, and neither has resulted in a radiation release of any kind.
(The Thresher was lost during sea trials when it exceeded crush depth on a dive and its hull collapsed. The Scorpion's accident was more perplexing, but all available evidence points to a malfunction in its Mark 37 torpedo. The torpedo ran hot due to battery problems endemic to that model; when ejected for safety by the crew, it went active, turning around and targeting the Scorpion. The sub's crew never had a chance. The current Mark 48 ADCAP torpedo has no such problem).
As to the rest iof your post, I'm glad that we don't do atmospheric tests anymore (in fact, we don't do test blasts at all). We did a lot of things in the 1950's that would be correctly considered unsafe today and I do not want to see us go back to those practices.
Like lead paint!
Lead paint is only danger out is you EAT it or inhale during application. People have no concept of the terms "in moderation", "if installed properly" or "if handled properly" and many perfectly fine products have been unfairly villified.
A few above ground nuclear tests would be a GREAT tourist attraction and I would pay good money to see one. It would be the ultimate fireworks display. They said that the tests in the Pacific Atols could be seen in Hawaii. Talk about cool. But NOOOOO, nuclear weapons are BAD. Even thought a trip to the beach on a sunny summer day poses a greater risk of cancer.
"But you don't hear the farmers of North Dakota being NIMBYs. They'd love to have some spare income that would allow them to farm the 90% of their land the turbines wouldn't use up. "
With farm prices the way they are, we might as well harvest the wind!
Problem is we do not have transmission capacity to move the power to your market. Nobody wants to build tranmission lines for power that does not exist, and nobody else wants to build windmills and not be able to sell the power.
Oh Yes, BTW: Canwe sell you some ETHANOL?
Elias
Very nice answer. I hadn't considered that aspect when I replied to the same post.
It will happen gradually. The wind power projects in areas like Iowa and western NY, where there is transmission capacity, will slowly prove successful (if managed properly). Then eventually the investment in transmission capacity to ND will be seen as a safe bet.
This remains to be seen. If they are as successful as you hope, then transmission facilities would be worth investing in.
isn't that grain alcohol?
Yes.
Yup... The sell it as a Goasoline additive...
Makes your car run cleaner! : )
Gashol
And, on older cars with carburetors, it eats away at the gaskets and needle valve tips - bad news. Fortunately, until I get the gas gauge fixed in the old Ford I'll be filling it up every 150-200 miles so if I end up buying gasohol it will only be about a half tank (and after I do get the gauge fixed I'll be even more careful to avoid stations that pump ethanol-enriched gas). (Doesn't matter in my newer Fords, they have fuel injection; no rubber or cork parts there.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Howabout droping a hydrogen bomb on yuuca mountain? Or a coulple.
Better have another planet to move to.
A new rocky planet has been found in a relatively nearby "solar system" with similarities to our own solar system. I wonder if it has an oxygen-based atmosphere...
and H2O. And that we won't die from lack immunity to it's native viruses/bacteria.
We'll need a supply of bottled water. Maybe Perrier will equip the first spaceship. You know, so they can say: "Perrier, Official Water of the New World."
:0)
Too much dependacy. do I hear a monpoly on water? ehh, not good!
And I wonder if *they* ever finshed their Second Avenue Subway!
3 mile island, chernobl? Also what are the costs in refining uranium in order to make it usable?
Chernobyl's staff virtually committed a crime when they allowed, no, tempted the accident to happen. It's got absolutely zilch relevance to the US or Western European programs. TMI-2 caused no injuries, no radiation release, no cancers, and did cause the utilities to do a lot of things differebntly.
Incidentally, TMI-1 has operated for years with no trouble at all. A very well-run plant which successfully applied the lessons learned with TMI-2.
The costs of enriching uranium ore and creating fuel is much less than for any fossil fuel because a nuclear plant can run for years on just one load of fuel. How many coal cars does the BNSF have to bring a coal plant every day to keep it running? And by the way, stockpiled coal gives off radioactivity due to the presence of radium naturally in the coal. When burned, this goes up the stack, along with mercury, cadmium and other heavy metals - which do not decay and can end up in your body.
Also wasn't there a really bad radioactive leak in a test reator in the west. It was I think test reactor #2. It was in the late 50s and maybe 60s (not sure). The site became so radioactive that the remains of the plant are still on the same site. Even the ambulance that was used to carry away the poisened workers (of which 3-5 excisted) is still there because it was so radio active. A alarm went off 3 times earlyer in the day, when the firefighters came (about 20 mins) each time they found it to be a false alarm. Latter another alarm came at 5-8 pm and they went over and their geiger couters hit the end of the range. One firefighter was left there to find the workers. When the others came back with a stronger gieger counter it too went off range. they left, came back and this time I think the gieger counter said 70 therms or something like that. The firefighter that was left was found dead. 2 workers where dead on finding. one of the workers where taken out of the plant and they had to call a local doctor from the local hospital because taking the guy to a hospital would create too much contamination. When the doctor came he said there isn't you can do the guys dead and a few minutes the guy expired. the guy never said what happend though he was consious. One of the workers was implaled on something in the reacter core room. It took some years before they knew what happend. Also this was noted on the TV show that is was under very strange cicumstances. All the things were left as if they dispired, lunches and etc.
If anyone knows what incident this exacly. thank you in advanced!
Are you talking about the government's installation at Hanford Reservation? If so, yeah, that's always a mess. But it's the nuclear weapons program, national security and all that. They were sloppy because they could be. Besides, in the 1950's everyone was worried about Communists at home.
An interesting story, pretty hairy. I've seen some decent titles in bookstores which tell the story. Might be worth your visit with credit card in hand.
NO, more south west.
There is another government lab that does research and military (nuclear weapons) stuff in Idaho. That facility has been working since the 1950's. Are you referring to that?
Forget it.
Also wasn't there a really bad radioactive leak in a test reator in the west. It was I think test reactor #2. It was in the late 50s and maybe 60s (not sure). The site became so radioactive that the remains of the plant are still on the same site. Even the ambulance that was used to carry away the poisened workers (of which 3-5 excisted) is still there because it was so radio active. A alarm went off 3 times earlyer in the day, when the firefighters came (about 20 mins) each time they found it to be a false alarm. Latter another alarm came at 5-8 pm and they went over and their geiger couters hit the end of the range. One firefighter was left there to find the workers. When the others came back with a stronger gieger counter it too went off range. they left, came back and this time I think the gieger counter said 70 therms or something like that. The firefighter that was left was found dead. 2 workers where dead on finding. one of the workers where taken out of the plant and they had to call a local doctor from the local hospital because taking the guy to a hospital would create too much contamination. When the doctor came he said there isn't you can do the guys dead and in a few minutes the guy expired. the guy never said what happend though he was consious. One of the workers was implaled on something in the reacter core room. It took some years before they knew what happend. Also this was noted on the TV show that is was under very strange cicumstances. All the things were left as if they dispired, lunches and etc.
If anyone knows what incident this exacly was. thank you in advanced!
In the Applichian Mountains there are some really big windmills that can generate 1-3 Mw's of power each, when turning of course. I saw some of these MegaMills from the Capitol Limited. Naturally, their deployment is limited to a few premier locations where the wind is really gusting.
More typical windfarming also can help support farmers. Instead of giving out a few extra billion in federal farm subsudies, the government can support dual land use b/t plant farming and wind farming, thus giving farmers in the northers plain states a stable source of rental income that can ease them through future product shocks.
An interesting idea. Worth trying to measure actual return on investment.
Alo, unfortunately, the extended runway can be used to get people anywhere,
It can only get people to other major airports (assuming that the runways support the airliners they were built for). Adding additional destinations to a rail corridor is very inexpensive. An HRS corridor would add some 5-10 new destinations b/t LAX and SF?. Lengthning a runway adds no additional destinations to the air travel network.
Furthermore, rail RoW's already exist so no new land resources are expended to add a rail corridor and out in CA, land is at a premium.
Lastly, airports also carry a significant cost of noise and related vibration. A hi-speed electric train makes almost no contnuious noise or vibration.
The articles Tom quoted could apply to so many other things...the excuses for keeping a fireman on diesel locomotives, unfortunately the loss of cabooses and the rear crew, or at least loss of the conductor there; there was I'm sure a time that elevator operators didn't think their jobs could be automated; on and on. The world keeps turning and business goes on the same. Now given my druthers I'd prefer train travel over any other public transport.We lost Amtrak on the ex-NP line thru Southern Montana late 1979 and from what most people see we are doing qute well without it...NOT that I don't wish we still had it. The Empire Builder on the North line serves way fewer businesses nd less population by far...the express freight could be assumed by FEDEX etc; passenger business not much to worry about. If we could do without it so can they and probably a lot of other western communities along Amtrak. Again this is not my first choice.But I do believe if the NEC and maybe even the California services shut down there would be chaos...maybe that would rattle Congress's cage.Much like subways/commuter things like the NEC are a must, a lot of other things sadly not..and those who enjoy cross country by train and will not fly would lose out. Bus instead...please...Greyhound served me very reliably but not my idea of a vacation. I'm probably lost here....facts are outside of busy corridors the country can live without Amtrak..but I wish that weren't so.
My thing here is that the government doesn't seem to think that the current subsidies that go to the airlines are subsidies. And I'm not even talking of the $15 post 9/11. If the airlines had to pay for air traffic control, safety oversight, not to mention the capital cost of the airport and the full operating cost of the airport, they would have been out of business long ago. In many other countries the gov't owns and operates the nation airline. But poor Amtrack has to beg for it subisdy and given a mandate to be 100% self sustaining. No airline could be if the true costs of their operation was paid for by them.
True, but each of the examples you quote occurred at a transition period. The last one, esp., was at a point when air travel was just beginning to come into its own, and jet planes would transform the way we travel.
So you took them out of context.
In the year 2002, do we have anything now that will transform travel yet again? Not that I can see.
One day that quote about trains may qualify for your analogy. ERight now, the rails are a critical, public utility.
If you want to validate the analogy you have to show why it's true today. In the NEC and in towns where the train is the only affordable link to civilization, it is most certainly not true.
>>> One day that quote about trains may qualify for your analogy. ERight now, the rails are a critical, public utility. <<<
That day is here and already past for transcontinental passenger trains. I am not against all passenger rail travel, but I do not believe we need a nationwide rail network Urban rapid transit, yes, commuter trains to suburbs, yes, Intercity trains between cities that are close enough to compete time wise with air travel, yes, but not a nationwide rail network just because it was the iron horse that brought civilization to the wild west. I am all for rail travel where it makes ecological and economic sense. I do not believe it is a basic truth that there must be a nationwide passenger rail network.
>>> If you want to validate the analogy you have to show why it's true today. In the NEC and in towns where the train is the only affordable link to civilization, it is most certainly not true. <<<
I agree with you about the NEC, but you have to look far and wide to find towns where the train is the only affordable link to civilization. Small towns have not been served by passenger rail for the past quarter century (I can remember waiting at a flag stop for the Wabash Cannonball to take me to college, but that was long ago). Can you name any small or large town that has a railroad station with passenger service but no inter-city bus service?
Tom
Your argument about small towns on the transcontinental routes is stronger, to be sure. But I'm not entirely convinced that the transcontinental train should be entirely abandoned.
If you look at a route map of the Empire Builder, there are towns along the route for whom the train is important. There may well be intercity bus service - but where does it go? Does it operate daily, or three times a week? Some Amtrak routes don't operate daily either. Maybe offering a train and a bus in those cases is just and fair.
"Can you name any small or large town that has a railroad station with passenger service but no inter-city bus service? "
Minot, ND
Wow, thank you for spending your time on writing that! Everything you descibed is exactly with what I think. You might want to mail a copy of that to your goverment officils.
Whether or not I agree with all your inbdividual points, that's a great post. I agree with at least one other responding post - send that to the White House and your Senator or Congress person, and see what happens.
I was on my way to work this morning on the 'J' heading to Broadway Junction. When I noticed a set of R-42's in Service heading to Parsons/ Archer. I have a habit of looking at the front display of the #1 end of each car. And in the 4th car I noticed as bright as day a Yellow 'Q' sign in the window. Why would someone change the front roll sign to a Circle 'Q' if all they see are J M Z or L? Are they gonna move the R42's to the 'Q'?
Quite possibly, since R143's will be bumping R42's off the L and R68's and R32's are reported to be moving from CI to other yards.
It seems more likely to me that the R-42's will land on the N, which seems to be Coney Island's mixed bag line. But they certainly could end up on the Q or even the W.
The R32's are still riding on the N, so the N will definitely get them first. The R68's are the mainstay of the Q, and the R68A on the W. I am sure that the R42's will go to the circle Q, but the R68's will be the majority.
Actually there was an R68 set riding on the N today having 2908 on the south end, with the roll signs saying:
N Astoria
Ditmars Blvd.
Brooklyn
Kings Hwy.
That's not unusual at all. The N has R-32's, R-40's, R-68's, and (unofficially) R-68A's.
But nothing's definite. For all we know, the TA's planning to throw all the car assignments up in the air tomorrow.
My guess is that the R-42's will show up on the N and none of the other Coney Island-based lines in the near future. I'm not sure why you think they'll show up on the circle-Q; the diamond-Q seems more likely to me, considering the similarities to the R-40. (There are enough R-68's on the N that the Q probably won't have to give up any.)
Q and W are the prime candidates for the R68/68A. I did see some R42's running on the 6th Ave. Q service in 1999 when the Williamsburg Bridge was closed. I wouldn't imagine why the Q diamond can't have the R42's and giving the A, C, or G the slants. But I guess anything is possible. I just hope Coney Island Shops don't give up too many more R68/68A cars, and especially none off the Q circle.
I don't think R42s will be at Coney Island anytime soon. If anything, they'd aim at keeping the same fleet type over there. So, R40s and R40Ms would be my guess as to which goes there first. That way some R32s can head to TWO other yards (Jamaica and 207) for fleet commonality as well.
So where do you think the R-42's will go? They will be moving out of ENY as the R-143's arrive. Most of us are assuming they'll go to CI because R-42's are similar to R-40's, which are only housed at CI. Do you have another idea?
I agree that the R-40M's will go before the R-42's. (The R-40's have apparently already gone.)
They're only going to displace 212 units, that means whatever Slants were in Eastern Division go to CI, along with the 98 R40M, and a small block of the remaining R42 stock, my guess is the 4900 series cars like they did during the Willy B diversion of 1999.
wayne
II thought the R40M's and the R42's were sort of a package deal. They seem to run together quite often. Sort of like this:
R42-R42-R40M-R40M-R42-R42-R42-R42
I've seen them in all sorts of trainset configurations, but I rarely if ever see a pure R40M. Whatever's in the yard is what they send out, it seems. Lots of times I'll see them set up the train half-and-half.
wayne
They do blend together stylistically, FWIW. You have to look carefully to see the R-40Ms
On the outside if you are not paying attention it is easy to miss the "R40M dent" on the sides (If you didn't notice the skinny door.) But once you sit down, you can immediately tell when it is an R40. The seats are very uncomfortable!
Well, no ALL anyway. But I'm assuming that they will be moving R40 and R40M out first. I don't think they'll be having a 212 car movement. What good is having R143s on the L Line to only have the same amount of cars as before. As the rest of the fleet gets a small expansion, the L Line might as well. I think there will be a minimal movement of cars.
I don't know which lines are slated for service increases, but I don't think the L is getting any priority simply because it's getting the new cars. (That's not to say it isn't getting a service increase -- I don't know if it is.)
Actually I heard rumor in the mill that some of the R-40M/42s will be going to the A and C line as, slowly and surely, the R-38 will be getting phased out in time. I don't know how exactly true this is.....anyone who knows do inform me. As for bumping, look for the 4400 numbered R-40 Slants (North slants from the L) out on the N and Q (South) line.
The R-38s won't be getting phased out for several years; the cars that are going to replace them (R-160) haven't been ordered yet. NYCT has several years to decide where they're going to run.
At least 10 slant R-40s were transferred from East New York to Coney Island over the past few days. Perhaps someone can provide the exact number of cars.
David
I see at lest 6 R32's hooked up to 4 Stant R40's going to Jamica Yard. Later on I would only see the Slant R40's leaving the yard. There was a transfer last night.
Robert
Monday, There were 14 slants scattered around ENY yard. Today, they were all gone. I don't know if they may have been moved to Canarsie, or if they all went to CI already (there don't seem to be any running on the L). I do know one train has been stored in Fresh Pond, and I think was there yesterday. I haven't been past there today, though.
Some of those slants that were sitting around did have the signs changed to diamond Q as did the one in Fresh Pond. Now, some modifieds display it. (did some drilling with them today).
i did see #4429-#4449 running on the Q diamond line last friday. maybe this is a sign.
The acceptance of the R-143s have officially given the R-40 Slants the boot from the North. I did an acceptance test on a brand spanking new R-143 about 2 weeks ago, the successful test meant the train would be accepted by the TA and go into passenger service, and that means adios to another trainset of slants. In time look for interesting shifts in division and lines for the R-40M and the R-42. Rumor has it they might be going to either the A, C or the Q.
Part II of the Subway Series rolls into the Bronx this weekend! Any subtalkers going to be there on Saturday? I'll be in the upper deck for that game. -Nick
For a line that shares railroad with absolutely NO ONE, the L sure had a lot of problems Wednesday (Man was I sorry for deciding to work overtime on the L this day!!). Not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES a train of R-143s went into emergency, causind delays that lasted for at least 2 1/2 hours. Then at E. 105th, yet another train of R-143s caused massive delay to service into and out of Canarsie when the doors on the train (the conductor as I understood it did everything properly) did not open. The train, after multiple tries to overcome the problem, had to be taken out of service, a wrong rail move had to be established to move the B/O train to Canarsie Yard. My train was caught at E. 105th directly next to the disabled train. The out-of-place crews, and resulting schedule changes and trips being dropped continued till at least 11PM, when finally (around the time of my last trip) things got back to normal. Man if this is what the R-143s are gonna be doing when the L line becomes entirely R-143, and CBTC finally comes online, I definitely plan to avoid EVER working the L line, and I know a lot of train people here will agree (all this on top of 5 trips jobs for barely 8 1/2 to 8 3/4 hours pay.....sheesh!!).
The 'doors refuse to open' problem is nothing new. One car in a train of slant R-40s does that every once in a while.
David
That also happens with the R46's. 90% of the time, it happens at curved stations (like 34 St downtown on the N/R local track by the first car-that's a hot spot for that). I guess the pins somehow detach at some curved stations preventing the doors from opening.
Do conductors check for this by counting guard lights? What if people are stuck inside the car and want to get off? On 75 footers, they can't just go to the next car.
The guard light illuminates, but the doors do not open. If people are stuck inside the car, and it's not the T/O's or C/R's car, then they have to stay on until the next stop when the door opens. Sometimes, someone will pull the cord if it's a consistent thing (like if a DC1 or 2 was turned off).
It takes two trainlines energized (Door Unlock and Door Open)
to cause the doors to open on a given side. However, either
trainline energized will cause a guard light to come on (err,
perhaps I have this slightly wrong, maybe it's only the Unlock
trainline that opens the S circuit and gives the guard light...
I defer to Master Train Dude). I experienced the E/P
problems you mention on an R32 train once. The symptoms were the
same. First two cars did not open, but guard lights came on.
The 'doors refuse to open' problem is nothing new. One car in a train of slant R-40s does that every once in a while.
If new R143's are not expected to perform better than old R40's, why do they cost so much more?
To give fodder to Steve Bauman, of course!
I never said the R-143s weren't expected to outperform the R-40s...they ARE. I just said this particular problem isn't new...and it isn't.
David
EVERY day is an interesting day on the L.
Besides, that's what you get for working your RDO ya greedy bastid.
Dame, I am thinking of picking over to the L line for next pick.
Robert
143 = ABD if you ask me.
I thought this was an easy question so I did some research. Now I am not so sure so I am looking for help. Before the Chrystie St. changes of the late sixties were the express tracks at 2nd Ave and the express tracks at Bway-Laff ever connected? I had forgotten that at about the same time the Chrystie changes were happening, the 6 Ave. express tracks from W4 to 34 were opened. 6 Ave. service was strange. D, 205 to CI (Culver). BB, 168 to 34. F, 179 to Bway-Laff and sometimes 34. According to service, nothing was being turned at 2nd Ave. Were there any tracks in place on the express south of Bway-Laff? If not, did they use bumping blocks? Were there any tracks in place in the middle at 2 Ave. before Chrystie? Any switches north of the station before Chrystie? And once again, if there were tracks on the express, were they connected between Bway-Laff and 2nd Ave.? Thanks.
I don't know where the tracks may have connected at one time, so I can't help with that, but I believe the 2nd Ave station "express" track were yet another IND second system provision for "lines not built" I believe they were to connect to the proposed Houston Street line that was to replace the Willy B by continuing under the East River, and connect to the huge South 4th Street station that is just a shell at the G's Broadway station. Another victom of the Depression and WWII.
"victim" not "victom'....sorry, it's early in the morning.....
LOL!
According to service, nothing was being turned at 2nd Ave.
F trains terminated at 2nd Ave at all hours between 4/27/56 and 10/6/57.
Weekday F trains terminated at 2nd Ave between 10/6/57 and 10/11/58.
Yes, the express tracks were continuous.
Thanks for the information. Sorry I took so long. I was hoping for more answers from others. I had gotten those services from a mid 60's map. Thanks again.
I think I asked this before but am not sure. I'll try again. Looking for a western movie. Don't remember the plot too well, but it might be in the building of the railroad mold. It is in color and looks to be made in the 50's. The only scene I remember is that a freight train is trying to cross a wooden trestle and there is a raging current of water below weakening the bridge. Our engineer stops the train and races back on top of the train to the edge. I am not sure if he made it. The bridge gives way and the train tumbles in what amounted to be a great scene. How many out there remember the Ch 7 4:00 pm movie. Did they call it the 4:00pm movie? Anyhow, in the opening introduction for the 4:00 pm movie, that scene with the train falling was in it. You would see it everyday. I tried to track this movie down for years with no success. Any help is greatly appeciated. Thanks.
Work is proceeding. They have closed off the walkway behind the bumping blocks. Signals on J3 have been extinguished.
Interesting. Let us know when they start ripping down the wall. I don't get over there as often as I'd like. BTW, while on the Nassau line, what's the progress at Essex. The last time I was there (a few weeks ago), it seemed they were ripping down parts of the "cement block" wall they but up in the late 80's, the last time they rehabbed the station. I used to use that station every day a few years back, so i'd be interested to know.
Thanks, I gotta check this out.
Bill "Newkirk"
How does one get from the token booth area to the northbound platform if the walkway is closed? The last time I used this station from the street, I had to enter the rehabbed (southbound) platform to get to the northbound side.
Underpass...known aappling the Q/W Canal platform :)
There is an underpass connecting the two JMZ platforms. It comes from the Canal "bridge" platform. If you go up straight you wind up on the rehabbed platform, if you go up and then left in the underpass you wind up on the soon to be abandoned platform.
Those underpasses was closed until a few days before the bridge flip last July. (Does anyone remember exactly when they were closed? I remember using them in the early 90's.) The only way off the NB platform was around to the SB platform. For a while during the Canal rehab work, only the NB lower level platform was open; anyone at the railfan window on a NB J/M/Z who wanted to transfer there had a long walk.
Has anyone heard if PATH will use the WTC name when the station reopens in late 2003 or will it go back to the old name Hudson Terminal.
Most likely the name would stay the same. Why? Because the NYCTA station has kept its name, and because the WTC will be rebuilt in some fashion. -Nick
The 1 was not in service this morning in the Bronx? Any ideas what happened? I heard that there was no power? Anyone confirm?
I seem to have heard on the radio that there was some kind of signal trouble.
The radio said there was no service North of 145th Street. Does anyone know what kind of signal trouble?
There were problems with a user on this board not closing their HTML. This delayed all trains on the system.
-Hank
Funny! Not really...
Having a sense of humor would be a start Clay...
The power went out causing the signals to go to danger.
WHY SUCH BIG LETTERS WITHOUT ENDING?
- Lyle Goldman
I have read about the problems with the new V Line train and i would like to propose several changes which may improve service on the E,F,G,R and V Queens Blvd Line routes
1-Operate the G Line at all times between Queens Plaza and Church Ave only. With one express route at Queens Plaza the G can be switched weekdays into the lay up train at Queens Plaza. It will be tight but it can be done
BENEFITS:G Line passengers will have an easier transfer at Queens Plaza(walk across platform) than at the Court Sq/23rd-Ely Ave complex.
Please remember when plans for the 63rd Street Tunnel were made 35 years ago there was not as large ridership that used the G Line then as today. Since the majority of the ridership on Queens Blvd go to Manhattan it was necessary to cut the G Line connection .
2-Operate the R Line 24 hours a day between Continental Ave and 95th St/4th Ave.
BENEFITS:It will give Queens Blvd Line passengers between Queens Plaza and 65th Street improved access to Manhattan late nights and weekends around the clock without changing trains at Queens Plaza.
It will also give Queens Blvd Line passengers 3 services to/from Manhattan at all times and provide 2 services at all times at Queens Plaza to transfer to/from the G Line. Also the Broadway Local can use 2 full time local services 24 hours a day like it had between 1987 and the mid 1990's
3-Switch the Queens terminal of the E and F Lines. Have the E Line terminate at 179th Street(See Item #4) and the F terminate at Jamaica Center at all times
BENEFITS: On Archer Ave instead of 2 services that operate from Jamaica to Lower Manhattan (E and the J/Z) you will have only one(J/Z)
Many current E line passengers can switch to the J/Z for lower Manhattan. The J/Z line has additional capacity for service. It will also speed up F Line service by having F trains operate express between 21st Street and Jamaica/Van Wyck
PROBLEM- 75th Ave and Van Wyck/Briarwood will lose service
4-Operate the E train express between 179th Street and Continental Ave weekdays between 6AM and 8PM and extend the V Line to 179th Street making local stops
BENEFITS-Hillside Ave passengers will have 1 8th Ave Lower Manhattan service and 1 midtown service during weekdays.
PROBLEM- 169th St,Stuphin Blvd and 75th Ave lose express service to/from Manhattan
5-Operate the V Line rush hours between 179th Street and Eastern Pkway/Broadway Junction via Queens Blvd Local,53rd St,6th Ave Local,and Broadway(Brooklyn) Local. The J/Z Line will operate express peak direction between Marcy Ave and Eastern Pkway stopping at Bway/Myrtle Ave
NOTE: This change will require the V Line to use 8 car R 32 trains only.
At all other times the V Line will opearte from 179th Street(middays) or Continental Ave(evenings and weekends) and Broadway-Lafayette. No midnight service.
BEBEFITS:J/Z Line will have faster ride to Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn will have a one seat ride to midtown and improve usage to the V Line which is underutilized.
I believe that these service changes will relieve congestion and overcrowding on the E and F and will give passengers in the inner zone of the Queens Blvd Line improved service to/from Manhattan.
It will not please everyone but then again no additonal express service can be added on Queens Blvd at this time.
ALSO if the MTA takes over the Triboro Coach line a new Limited Stop service can be added from Queens Plaza/Queensboro Plaza to LaGuardia Airport with a stop at the 21st Street/Queensbridge station which will remove airport passengers/workers from the Queens Blvd Line
Thank You
The overcrowding on the E line is limited to the first two s/b cars, and sometimes the middle cars. Otherwise, there is plenty of space if people would just spread out. Problem is that everyone wants to be in the front of the train for the 6 train connection during the AM rush.
Yet another rehash of the Queens Blvd. situation.
To be fair, you have interesting ideas. Unfortunately, there is one fatal flaw.
The MTA proved, beyond debate, that there is not enough capacity at Queens Plaza to host the G as well as all trains going to Manhattan. Simply put, the G cannot terminate at Queens Plaza. The only way to do that would be to spend $100 million to create a new lower level platform there and new track ramps. It isn't going to happen in the near future.
The inconvenience at Court Sq is badly overstated. As David Greenberger pointed out, there are busier interchanges which are far worse. And Court Sq will get better as MTA continues to improve the whole set of stations in that area.
Ron,
Thank you for your comments
My idea for Queens Plaza was speculation
But at the original MTA hearing that approved the current service plan which i attended it was planned to build a new level for the G Line to terminate at Queens Plaza
Thank You
"But at the original MTA hearing that approved the current service plan which i attended it was planned to build a new level for the G Line to terminate at Queens Plaza"
If it was discussed at the hearing you attended, it wasn't when I attended. I attended the hearing in LIC, and while that idea may have been mentioned (I wrote to MTA about it at one time, but learned that the engineering challenges would be formidable), it was certainly not on the table or part of the MTA's plan.
Of course I personally like that idea. But it would have to compete for priority with many other projects.
MTA isn't done with Court Square. More work is on the way...
Does anyone have the foggiest idea what it would cost to create a loop track under Continental that could be considered revenue track?
My total SWAG would be that's also in the neighborhood of $100 million.
Well, to be fair, the Jamaica Yard leads start around there - so you already have a lower level of tracks. You'd then have to build a loop around that but using existing infrastructure wherever you can. Maybe you could do it for under $100 million, but not much less.
>> The inconvenience at Court Sq is badly overstated. <<
I agree. I'd rather transfer there than, say, at 53/Lex (E/V to 6), Broadway Junction (J/Z to A/C), or even at Roosevelt Ave (E/F/G/R/V to 7).
You have a decent plan there. There are a couple of problems I see with this though. One has already been mentioned (turning trains around at Queens Plaza would be difficult). The second has to do with running the V local all the way to 179 Street. People at the Hillside Local stations are going to complain loudly about having a Queens Blvd local train run all the way to 179, just as they did when the R ran to 179 years ago.
I DO like your idea of the J/Z running express while the V runs local on the Broadway El. I think it's a good idea.
>> The J/Z line has additional capacity for service. <<
It will continue to have additional capacity for service until something is done to make it faster. I think it takes half an hour just to get from Jamaica Center to Eastern Parkway. One gets a whole lot closer to Manhattan on the E in that time than on the J.
I think it takes half an hour just to get from Jamaica Center to Eastern Parkway.
Not quite. When skip-stop is not in operation, it takes 24 minutes to Broadway Junction and 49 minutes to Chambers St. When skip-stop is in operation it takes 22 minutes to Broadway Junction and 44 minutes to Chambers St.
One gets a whole lot closer to Manhattan on the E in that time than on the J.
True. Queens Plaza is the point 22 minutes from Jamaica Center. However, it takes 48 minutes to Canal St. Therefore, when skip-stop is running, it makes marginally more sense for those headed downtown to use the (J) or (Z) Trains.
It will continue to have additional capacity for service until something is done to make it faster.
You are correct. It really needs a massive rebuild to allow the capacity to be taken adavantage of.
So 4th of July service on Metrorail is even wackier this year than in years past due to increased security. The logistics of fencing off the entire Mall and making everyone go through security checkpoints is pretty mind-boggling.
Closing the Smithsonian station for the day seems even wackier, but I guess there was no way to maintain the secure perimeter safely without doing so.
Take a look at the brochure for the details.
Interesting find. Lets hope all the subway systems across America stay safe next week (and beyond).
BTW, I noticed your handle. Are you new to subtalk, and now one of are few female members? -Nick
People should boycott any planned festivities at the Mall as a statement that we will refuse to let terrorism make us prisoners in our own country. Anything requiring that much security isn't worth going to anyway and putting a security zone around the entire mall is an affront to what July 4th stands for. People should take their festivities somewhere where they can still be free.
Can someone please post or e-mail (I prefer e-mail) the exact changes from the brochure? I can't get pdf files from where I am now (slow internet connection and limited time).
Thank you very much!
I will only make limited posts until July 22. Hope to check in before then.
Talk to you all later.
I posted the main bits in my message with the link to the map. Essentially the same as in previous years except that Smithsonian is closed the whole day. Here's the synopsis from the PDF:
Smithsonian station closed all day.
Blue Line: Huntington & Rosslyn (Upper level)
Yellow Line: Franconia/Springfield & Huntington
Red Line: (Starting 11AM) Alternate terminals at Silver Spring or Glenmont
Green Line: (Starting 3PM) Alternate terminals at Fort Totten or Greenbelt
Orange Line: Double service between Vienna & Stadium-Armory, then split between New Carrollton and Addison Rd.
Free Shuttle Buses: (Starting 6PM) every 15 minutes between Franc/Spfld & Macy's parking lot at Springfield Mall.
(After fireworks) from L'Enfant Plaza back to free parking at the Pentagon
Oops. Yellow should read "Franconia/Springfield & Mt. Vernon Square". I must have been momentarily channelling someone who insists 76th Street was in revenue service.
Looks to me like it's a pic of brand new R16's in the 1950's, but I'm not sure:
What do you think of the passengers' clothes (or is that too generic to date?).
Before my time....looks like the late 50's?
The R-16's were delivered new in 1955 and the ones in the picture have accumulated a little subway dirt, so the picture is probably at least a year or two after 1955. I can't remember when the R-16 signs went from numbers to letters, but I assume it was sometime before Chrystie Street opened in 1967. This narrows down somewhat the date of the picture.
The picture is probably either 1955 or 56.
Two R-16's were painted gold for a special celebration then.
The lead unit is obviously one of the gold cars, but weathered.
Karl: Two R-16s were painted gold in 1955 for some kind of 5 Avenue Business Association promotion. They were 6318 and 6463.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks Larry, I knew you would know. I could not remember why, but I was sure that it wasn't for the Rockaway extension.
I'm going to guess late summer, 1956 -- two R16's were painted gold for the opening of the IND Rockaway Line earlier that year. Note that the lead car, in gold, has accumulated a fair coating of dirt -- considering only the last couple miles of the line in Manhattan are subway.
6318 & 6463 were painted gold when they were brand new in 1955.
The reason for the paint job escapes me right now, but I don't believe that it had anything to do with the opening of the Rockaway Line.
Okay, thanks, Karl -- I was wrong about the reason for the gold paint.
In Greller's subway car book, page 65, there.s a photo of 6318 at Rockaway Park and the caption says they were painted that way for "Fifth Avenue Days" in 1955.
I'm going to guess late summer, 1956
No way it's summer, unless it was REALLY unseasonably cold. The people on the platform are wearing heavy topcoats.
"I'm going to guess late summer, 1956"
No way it's summer, unless it was REALLY unseasonably cold. The people on the platform are wearing heavy topcoats.
I'm going to guess late summer, 1956
I'd say it's fall not summer or winter. Most but not all passengers are wearing overcoats as was mentioned. Second, a few but not all of the station windows are in place. These windows were taken out during summer to permit breezes in the station. They were replaced in winter to avoid drafts. They were half in half out during spring and fall. My guess is October 1956.
Intersting, no third rail covers.
Only lines that never saw elevated cars had third rail covers (which would alsohelp datethe picture).
Gate cars were still being used for work trains during most of the 1950's, and they couldn't operate on covered third rail without a pickup conversion.
The Broadway-Jamaica line third rail was not converted until much later, perhaps the 1960's.
There was a sign on the approach to the Williamsburgh Bridge from Marcy Ave that said something like "Trains with elevated type contact shoes not permitted on bridge". That sign stayed there well into the 1980's, long after the gate cars were gone.
The Q-types also had El style drop shoes until the mid-1960s, so the uncovered third rail survived many years beyond the last of the gate cars.
-- Ed Sachs
There was a sign on the approach to the Williamsburgh Bridge from Marcy Ave that said something like "Trains with elevated type contact shoes not permitted on bridge". That sign stayed there well into the 1980's, long after the gate cars were gone.
I don't see how that could have been. After the Fulton and 5th Avnue Ls closed, Williamsburgh Bridge was the only way for elevated cars to get from the eastern division to coney island shops.
Paul, You're right, the cars did go that way, but I think they were all towed because they could not make third rail contact.
That should be another clue to the date.
Man the old rolling stock was so beautiful !!!
Wow, someone saying the old rolling stock was beautiful.
People used to say that the R16's and similiar types were dull and boring.........
But a very nice photo indeed........
People used to say that the R16's and similiar types were dull and boring.........
I used to hate the R16's! I only really knew them at their worst, in the late 70's and early 80's......and I hated them! They were filty wrecks! It's amazing how views change over time.....I only wish one of those filthy wrecks would pull into the station now!
Instead of a filthy wreck, I'd settle for the way they looked in the picture.........
They still looked that way in 1967, and had their original door engines.
What station was that taken at. Is it on the abandoned potion of the el, or a station still in use?
There are three tracks, so it's on Broadway and the train is going to Broad Street. We see the front because it's on our left.
That is Flushing Avenue Station on J/M line.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
I've seen other photos of the stations along the Broadway-Jamaica Line, and Knickerbocker and Central on the M, and was always amazed at the glass windows on the platforms. In the above photo they are visible, and some are already missing, but can you imagine having glass on a platform today? I don't think the glass would survive through the first day they were put there!
>>>...but can you imagine having glass on a platform today?<<<
They seem to do it successfully on the Franklin Shuttle.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's only because BMTman constantly patrols the line and makes volunteers do so also. If anyone even THOUGHT of touching the glass, BMTman would be all over them, and that's what keeps everybody
honest. Alas, BMTman can't be everywhere. At least the Franklin's safe. :)
Is it glass blocks or glass windows?
Stained glass.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, like they have at Myrtle on the JMZ. That stuff (if it is what you are talking about) is indestructable, and it looks nice. A far cry from the glass windows they had at the old el station's platforms. Those probably wouldn't last a weekend in today's subway.
Found this when I was checking for advisories on the #5 line:
Downtown trains will be delayed up to 5 minutes traveling through Grand Central
Rush Hours, 7 AM to 10 AM Mon to Fri until Jul 26
Huh?
That is strange. Are they testing for signal problem during high volume times? Do they have a temporary dispatch problem which will hold up trains at the busiest time (rush hour)?
I asked about that a week ago. Track work will impose a speed restriction on the SB express track at all times. Most times of day, that will cause minor slowdowns, delaying trains a few seconds. Rush hours on the 4/5, it's prone to cause traffic jams, delaying trains perhaps even a few minutes.
Seems pretty self explanatory to me....
what is this called ?? a in cab ride or a ride inside a diesel loco??
or a ride along program etc... Is this done by any railroad anywhyere?
if you wanted to experence a ride inside a BNSF locomotive etc..
Is there a proper name for that ?? I am serious here !!
It's called a "cab ride", and railroads are not in the habit of providing them.
It helps to know somebody.
I knew somebody who worked for the Southern Railroad of New Jersey and was fortunate to get a cab ride last August.
I know a conductor with SMS who got me a cab ride with subsidiary Penn-Jersey Lines last March (he's in the photo).
thankz a billion !!
follow up comment thanks again for the information & I do like your
pictures on WEBSHOTS !! too bad they block uploads to subtalk ...
hope you like my photo gallery i am still working on WEBSHOTS ...
it would be nice to get a ""CAB RIDE"" on a BNSF freight train !!!
man would dat shoot a nice video !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
thankz agin for the xlnt info !
It would be called just a "cab ride".
Nowadays with all the liability worries, it's doubtful you could swing one on one of the mainline roads....unless, of course, you got to know some engineer who would be willing to risk letting you ride. Even then, out on mainlines, there's too many chances of getting caught.
I did manage some official cab rides in 1993-1994 when Metrolink first started, with the purpose of videotaping their routes from end-to-end from the locomotive cabs. Also got permission to do the same on Caltrain up in the bay area.
I have a very good friend who is high up in administration at San Diego Trolley, and he says he can NOT even get me permission to ride a cab down there.....the guy who would allow it simply won't.
what i do with the long beach blue line is put the camera in there
then tape it into place on the dashboard get out of the cab ...
i do have connections with most of the los angeles mta rail lines..
but it would be nice to shoot out of a BNSF or UP or SF cab !
Does anyone know where the stations on the Park Av El in Brooklyn were? I can't find any maps which actually show the stations of that age.
Fulton Ferry
Washington Avenue (at York)
Bridge St. (at York)
Navy St. (at Park)
Cumberland (at Park)
Washington Avenue (at Park)
Grand and Myrtle.
Do you find it exciting that part of the very first el in Brooklyn is still running (J line from Alabama & Fulton to Crescent & Jamaica). I do.
Do you find it exciting that part of the very first el in Brooklyn is still running (J line from Alabama & Fulton to Crescent & Jamaica). I do.
Absolutely! Complete with center platforms and everything :D
I'm currently making a fantasy plan to completely rebuild most of the Eastern Division to allow for faster and more useful trains - however, the section from Alabama to Crescent I would defintely leave as is.
the section from Alabama to Crescent I would defintely leave as is.
Well, that's good news! :-)
There was a scheme sometime around 1960 to destroy the current J line from about Van Siclen Avenue to about Elderts Lane or so. It would have routed the line off of Fulton Street on a diagonal to Jamaica Avenue. I seem to recall it would have replaced 8 stations with 5.
Of course, it would have chewed up a hundred or more homes in the densely built area. I guess noone told them only highways were allowed to do that.
I don't recall that plan. What a huge plan. I have an article from the local paper from about the same time. Wanted to do the same thing but only smaller. The plan I read about called for the el to continue straight on Fulton from Crescent and continue to Rockaway Blvd. At Rockaway Blvd. (75 St.) would be a new station stop. The line would then turn north and cut a swath through the heart of Woodhaven claiming about 100 homes and rejoin the el at about 78 St. and Jamaica Ave. Elderts Lane and Cypress Hills would be eliminated. I believe the plan went as far as a community hearing which of course was loudly panned and then killed. NIMBY's yes, but with a large loss of homes and a dramatic change to the neighborhood who could blame the home owners in this situation. As you can imagine, all this was done to eliminate the slow curves at Crescent and Cypress Hills.
Paul, I was already gone from NY by then, but my parents still lived in Cypress Hills. I was under the impression that the plan was to start the turn at Crescent St, and go across country, and reach Jamaica Ave just west of the Elderts Lane station. This would eliminate the Cypress Hills station, and greatly reduce the curvature on the two turns.
Our home would have been one of approximately 100 homes that would have to be razed. Many homes on Crescent St, Campus Place, Adler Place, Hemlock St, Ridgewood Ave, Autumn Ave, Etna St, Lincoln Ave, O'brien Place, Nichols Ave & Grant Ave were involved. They apparently were planning on a right of way almost 100 foot wide. Building a new el line at a angle like that to the already existing streets would really eat up the property.
The Cypress Hills Board of Trade and Assemblyman Batista led the fight to get the plan squashed.
Karl, I'm thinking of a newspaper report with map I saw (and didn't keep) from 40 years or more ago. Possibly the map I saw was flawed, or my memory bad, or there was more than one plan--the plan you (and grimace1169) cite being more serious or advanced, since it evidently came to public hearings and/or protest.
Anyway, I guess I have another item to add to my "future reseaches" I may never get to. :)
Based on Grimace 1169's post there may have been a number of different proposals.
I was only aware of the one, but I did not live there and was only aware of the one reported to me by my parents. I will have to check and see if I can find some info in their files which I still have.
I got the story from an old Leader-Observer (local paper.)
I loved that paper, they put my picture on their front page in Dec 1953.
I loved that paper, they put my picture on their front page in Dec 1953.
Because...?
It was a posed tableau picture of the six cast members of the Senior play at Franklin K Lane HS. I was one of the cast members.
What was the play?
It was an ancient play even in 1953.
Written by Booth Tarkington, it was called A Trysting Place!
One of the service areas on the Indiana Toll Road bears Tarkington's name. So does an elementary school in South Bend.
A much better plan would be to turn the El directly from Broadway onto Jamaica Avenue and continue straight to Crescent Street / Cypress Hills. The nasty curves would be eliminated, and no homes would have had to be destroyed. Didn't anyone think of that?
- Lyle Goldman
A much better plan would be to turn the El directly from Broadway onto Jamaica Avenue... The nasty curves would be eliminated
And one nasty curve added at Broadway Junction. Still, it would be a definite improvement.
> And one nasty curve added at Broadway Junction.
It wouldn't have to be a nasty curve. It could be a gentle curve. Maybe they could put part of the new curve over the Subway yard there.
- Lyle Goldman
Maybe they could put part of the new curve over the Subway yard there.
Wouldn't that end up with the station being on a curve?
Or moving the station west.
The residents of Canarsie would really thank you for that.
Nope, bus garage's in the way.
wayne
The curve that's there (just west of Alabama Avenue) is certainly a sharp one; adding a few more degrees (maybe 20) to it wouldn't make it any worse; certainly no worse than the one at Crescent Street.
Existing curve looks like about 50 degrees; a curve to Jamaica Avenue would be about 75.
wayne
Existing curve looks like about 50 degrees; a curve to Jamaica Avenue would be about 75.
I don't doubt that.
I actually favour a Broadway - Jamaica Av direct alignment, but I can see a case for putting it into a tunnel in Highland Park and routing it onto the Fulton St Subway at Broadway Junction or even converting Cypress Hills - Jamaica to Division A then connecting it via Jamaica Av and ENY Av to Utica / Eastern Pkwy as an extension of the 4 Train.
even converting Cypress Hills - Jamaica to Division A then connecting it via Jamaica Av and ENY Av to Utica / Eastern Pkwy as an extension of the 4 Train
Not a good idea on several levels. It would be a step backward to convert anything to Division A, thereby losing capacity. The IRT Line in Brooklyn would make a roundabout trip even more so, and the trains are already packed without trying to add Jamaica Line riders.
Things which look good on a map often fail in the real world.
Not a good idea on several levels.
Oh, I quite agree, but it would be an interesting possibility!
It would be a step backward to convert anything to Division A, thereby losing capacity.
It may be a step forward, increasing frequency.
The IRT Line in Brooklyn would make a roundabout trip even more so
My estimate is that for a journey of Jamaica Center to Chambers Street, peak journey time would be reduced from 44 to 39 minutes (estimate created by taking the J Train's time from Jamaica to Crescent, subtracting 2 minutes for those curves, adding on the time the J train takes from Broadway Junction to Broadway / Myrtle (a comparative distance and number of stops to Cypress - Utica) then adding on the 4 train's time to Brooklyn Bridge). It would be a small improvement, but significant for making the line a clear 5 minutes quicker than the E Train to Downtown.
and the trains are already packed without trying to add Jamaica Line riders.
That is the BIG problem and will continue to be so until at least when SAS is completed and probably long afterwards.
I agree sending the 4 Train to Jamaica would probably not work, but mainly for reasons of crowding. It would still be a significant improvement on the current Jamaica Line and would look good on more than the Brooklyn Bus Map.
There already is a curve at Alabama, routing the line from Broadway to Jamaica Ave would require one only slightly sharper. And it would eliminate the bottleneck at Crescent St while cutting 5 minutes off a trip from Elderts Lane to Eastern Pkwy.
I always thought about what could be done to speed up the J. Through the years it seems to have gotten slower with the new timers. Those curves are the stumbling block. I think somebody else here came up with a similar plan. I always thought they should cut the el at Cypress Hills and continue straight down Jamaica to Broadway Junction with no stops. I would also cut the el at Crescent and make it a terminal. On second thought, might as well keep most of the el on Crescent for storage. Add a diamond south of the station. They could reuse the iron work in the middle that was part of the old LIRR rockaway connection. Create a second service to start out of Crescent and have it make all local stops while the J can operate express on Broadway. Late nights and weekends the new line could operate as a shuttle between Crescent and Broadway Junction. For all of our Chrystie St. cut fans, perhaps the V could run to Crescent providing that the train be shortened, of course.
Yes, your views agree with mine. An extension of the el along Jamaica Av to ENY running express, as the J, with the Z running all local stops via Fulton St.
I recall reading there is a bell at ENY IND station, designed to go to Jamaica Av.
I don't know that people would put up with a new el on Jamaica Avenue and keep the structure on Fulton Street.
The most obvious disability of switching the el to Jamaica Avenue all the way is that it creates a problem in that all the patronage for the line is on one side (the east side) of the line. This creates a longer walk for many patrons and a shorter walk for very few.
My thought is for a stationless express run. Fulton would still be there as it always has been. A bit of the existing el, east of Crescent would be rebuilt to accomodate this. Just about all of this el would be against the cemeteries or Highland Park, and it would be of the modern, single concrete pylon variety. Alternatively, you ramp down just west of Crescent into a subway.
"I always thought they should cut the el at Cypress Hills and continue straight down Jamaica to Broadway Junction with no stops. I would also cut the el at Crescent and make it a terminal. "
You mean something like this?
Nice page. Yeah, just about. I wouldn't have continued to Rockaway. Leave it at Crescent and use the rest of the el for L/U's
Yeah, like that.
"however, the section from Alabama to Crescent I would defintely leave as is."
Sort of.
My plan calls for braking the easter Jamaica Line into two routes.
(J) EXP Leaves Broadway Junction on a sweeping curve over the yard to follow Jamaica Avenue right away., and then picks up the present Jamaica el east of the "S" curve making all stops to Jamaica Center.
It runs Express on Broaday in the ush Direction.
(JJ) LCL Leaves Broadway Junction of the present el alignment, just past Crescent(?) instead of going into the "S" curve, it continues along Fulton to Rockaway where a proper terminal is built for it.
It runs Local on the Broadway el.
(M) service is unchaged for the moment, but... once the MYRTLE AVENUE SUBWAY is built, it will be torn down. : )
(Don't hold your breath)
Elias
Good lord, I'd blow this section up with the first opportunity. It's middle platform configuration prevents an express track from being installed. I know this is sacrilige, but I'd bring down the whole S curve at Crescent and replace it with a straigh run down Jamaica from Crescent to Alabama.
Good lord, I'd blow this section up with the first opportunity. It's middle platform configuration prevents an express track from being installed.
Perfect for a local only section. This section does not need such destruction - I would instead destroy Marcy - Broadway Junction to be replaced by a better El. I've nearly finished all the diagrams for what I'd do to the Eastern Division. It is a very large scheme of improvements... I should be able to put it online by the weekend.
Perfect for a local only section. This section does not need such destruction - I would instead destroy Marcy - Broadway Junction to be replaced by a better El.
Better el? What is wrong with the el from Marcy to Eastern Parkway? It's far superior to the Alabama to Cypress Hill portion of the line.
It's newer and has 3 tracks. That idea is silly.
Exactly, Some ideas may be crazy, but that one really is silly. Keep th old obsolete two track line, and destroy and rebuilt the new, better built three track line....makes a lot of sense.
As much as I hate to destroy such a historic line i'm qute close to agreeing with you. If they could turn right into Jamaica ave just past ENY yard and make maybe a 25-30 MPH curve...try for it anyway..it's smooth sailing the rest of the way.Might even bring back the old Chrystie K service of sorts. Might finally get some overload from Queens Blvd. I see it this way, admittedly using old running times with R1-9: E train 169-Hudson Term: 44 1/2 min; J train 168-Chambers--48 minutes [it was stretched 2 minutes for R9's]; reduce running time by about 4 minutes by the reroute, even running local we're even.Offer peak-travel express service...got it made altogether. But even if I lived another 20 years I wouldn't see or hear about it. Don't think it will ever happen.
I don't think it will ever happen eaither, at least not in the near future, but it really seems like such a logical idea. I wonder if that is what they had planned at one time, and that being the reason they never rebuilt the "island platform" section of the old line. The rest of the Broadway el was rebuilt to dual contract standards, and the Jamaica el was built that way right away.
That would have been one super express though! All the stations were built as local stations along the Jamaica Avenue section, so there would be no express stations between 168th and Eastern Parkway! Unless they planned one for the "new Jamaica Ave cutoff" section, which was never built. Was that the original intent of not rebuilding the old section?
The 8th ave /fulton st line had spur coming off ENY station,running up Jamaica ave to Cypress Hills[connecting with the Jamaica line,I'm sure].
The 8th ave /fulton st line had spur coming off ENY station,running up Jamaica ave to Cypress Hills[connecting with the Jamaica line,I'm sure].
So there was an el at one time on Jamaica Avenue East of Cypress Hills at one time?
Or was that a planned extension from the IND second system for the IND to take over the Jamaica Line, sort of like the Culver line was added to the IND subway?
I've actually seen plans of the Jamaica line being connected with the 14th St. line. The Second system IND plans had routes which would have rendered the Broadway elevated useless.
Your second question was correct,they dO indeed have a spur line diverging from the local tracks toward Jamaica ave,for direct Jamaica to downtown Brooklyn service.
Your second question was correct.They do indeed have a spur line bellmouth diverging from the local tracks,just after the ENY express station toward Jamaica ave,for direct Jamaica to downtown Brooklyn service.The Fulton st el [Bway line]would have torn down,and its trains most likly sent to Canarsie,or terminated there at Eastern Parkway.
Very interesting. I never heard that. I did hear about the south 4th Street station, and the line to replace the Broadway el, but never the line connecting to the Jamaica line from the Fulton Subway. It's very interesting all the could/would have been if it hadn't been for the Depression and WWII.
FIND a copy of ''Building The Independent''.Everything you could want to know about the IND is in that book,including the IND second system routes.
Actually I already have that book, and don't remember reading that. It's been a long time since I read it though (over 10 years or so), so I really should pull it out again......Actually maybe I'll look for it now.....
I was just flipping thur it,and saw the piece on the Fulton st line.
Hi. I would have responded to this sooner but I wanted to make sure. I have the book also and I didn't remember reading that. So I looked through it again with no luck. What page did you read this? I had asked about these bellmouths about three weeks ago and I had gotten a response that some information might be in the History of the Independent, an old book that is part of a trilogy. Was it this book instead?
That would have been interesting if it was built. Sounds similar to Mayor Hylan's first plan. Would have also recaptured the el at Cypress Hills. The Jamaica el could have changed just like the Fulton el did.
sorry I took so long, but from what i understand,there were two proposals. the fiest ,was to take over the line from Cypress hill and use the El from there,[I.E The 8th ave line to liberty ave El] and the other was to build a complete subway under Jamaica ave from ENY station and replace the El all together. At the time the City was cash strapped,so i believe if this was built,it would have been subway line to Cypress with ramps connecting to the EL there. hoped that helped... take care..
Yes, I heard about that proposal to put the J underground also. Just a passing mention in a local newspaper. With all the money problems I thought it was such a waste. Sorry to bother you again but what book did you read this from? I read "Building the IND" by Kramer and I did not see any info on those bellmouths at Broadway Junction (Fulton subway) in the book. Thanks again.
BELIVE ME ,It's in there,go to the begining where the FULTON ST SUBWAY mentioned,it will tell you about the line being completed as far as Eucild ave[but the liberty ave segment did have tracks or signals due to the war..]
BELIVE ME ,It's in there,go to the begining where the FULTON ST SUBWAY mentioned,it will tell you about the line being completed as far as Eucild ave[but the pitkins ave segment did have tracks or signals due to the war..]sorry about the typo....
Yes, that I read about. Thanks.
For once I've taken the time to read all the replies to this very interesting thread. I guess I'd have to say thank heavens the 2nd system was never built or we likely wouldn' have much el trackage at all. Even if the East NY-Cypress Hills strtech is a dog it's nice to have for history sake also such a long el line. Nobody has mentioned that along with the strtech along here not being rebuilt neither was the Fulton el [along Pitkin & Liberty from East NY [OK hinsdale st] to City Line {grant ave.} And this stretch far more exotic than the J line stretch here. Going back before an IND was even started both Jamaica extension and Liberty Ave were add-ons to the original line and the East NY section on both lines left original. BTW I just read there's a carousel factory in East NY believe it or not.
Just imagine how much faster the ride would've been had it run express on Jamaica Ave. as well.
I thought the oldest part left was from where the old Lex turned off south of Gates to Van Siclen. Actually, I guess you can say that only the part from Alabama to Van Siclen is vintage since the rest was redone for the Dual Contracts. To further complicate things, they did change the columns a few years back along Fulton St. so there is not too much left. That ancient bumping block just north of Van Siclen in the middle should still be there. I can hardly imagine that that was at one time the end. The structure looks the same. Cleveland, Norwood and Crescent stations (mezz and canopies) are different from Van Siclen and Alabama.
Many years ago Van Siclen Ave used to be a side platform station, and trains were turned back there from a center track.
Jeez, the structure pretty well fits Fulton now. Back then I'm sure there wasn't too much close to the structure.
I can't imagine it either, but those old side platform stations were pretty darn narrow.
The portion from the Lex turnout, especially in the ENY area, is so different from the original configuration and appearance that it didn't really come to mind. The more easterly portion from Alabama is more like the original structure.
In what way are the columns on this portion changed? They didn't replace them, did they?
I might be wrong but I remember them along Fulton being a light looking, lattice type of column. You could look into it. Didn't look strong at all. I believe during the late 80's they replaced them with stronger solid columns. Remember seeing the huge timbers holding the el in place during replacement.
Sounds like the rebuilding of East New York in the teens when timbering was used to support and raise the structures while reconfiguration was done under traffic.
Very similar to the old pictures, yes.
I was trying to find a picture with the old columns. I found this old picture of the LIRR connection off of Crescent St. and it appears to have the same columns. Look hard at the column in the middle.
Column
I love that picture.
If you haven't seen it (while we're on the topic) you might enjoy Karl's Last Lex article.
Thanks. That was good reading. A great page.
Definitely an interesting article!
Yes, it unequivocally gives me, more sentient to 1349 preserved in
Branford's unique Brooklyn El Car collection.
:-) Sparky
You are correct, the MTA did replace the original columns. The original columns were not solid, you could see right through them. Sometime in the early 80's they replaced all of the old columns with solid steel girders. I remember watching it happen being that I lived on Elderts Lane, and frequently went to Hamburg Bank on the corner of Crescent Street, and Fulton Street.
It really is a small world tonight. I used to have an account there. Really enjoyed watching the trains round the curve. Many a M/M waved. Thanks.
I used to work in that branch of the bank from 1954-57.
I understand that it is a Greenpoint Bank now.
Wow, it really is a small world tonight!
The original bank exterior probably looks the same today as I remember it. The original bank interior had a cathedral ceiling (two stories high). You could stand at a teller's window in the bank, and look out one of the two story high windows, looking up and actually see Jamaica bound trains coming around that turn. Some of the tellers always wondered if some day an el train would fall into the bank.
The bank spoiled things in 1955 when they renovated the interior, doubled its width on Fulton St, and eliminated the high ceiling creating a second floor. We operated as a bank during all of the renovations.
The easternmost portion of the renovated bank, and the parking lot alongside of it was the site of the old Gem movie theatre, which the bank closed in 1954 and razed. The original intent of the parking lot was to be a drive-in banking window. I don't suppose that exists anymore.
As a matter of fact I believe it does.
Small World [Johnny Mathis, about 1958] I had an account at the Hamburg Bank for several years,the same office.I was also a Cypress Hills resident 1968-77 with a few interim moves including 7-8 months in Ridgewood. Bought and moved into 282 Elderts Ln. Nov 68 [from the Bronx] and sold it Aug 74; bought and moved into 306 Grant Jan 75 and sold it and came to Montana in June 77. You'll find a few questions in the dates...in the midst of a divorce I was partially out of Elderts Ln before it was sold. I admit I made a lot of mistakes. In March 2000 I walked around the neighborhood I knew went by J train of course...had to admit it looked as good as when I lived there.Makes me pleased.Oh yes, It was my pleasure to serve on the R1-9 on the J line as a motorman while they were there. Even some on the old QJ.That was fun if you didn't have to make 2 round trips.
Why did they not replace the girders after they reached the old "end" just short of Van Siclen? The old girders from here to ENY still remain.
There were two different stations near each other on the same line both called Washington Avenue?
- Lyle Goldman
Probably Washington / York was Washington St not Washington Av. Certainly that's what the street's called now.
If I may correct the mistake....
The Washington at York Ave. IS and was Washington St.
Washington Ave. is about a mile east of Washington St.
And the York at Washington Street is York Street.
Damn, sorry, you're right...thanks for correcting that.
Last night, I'm coming back home using the Bx19 bus from Harlem to The Hub to catch either the Deuce or Five to East Tremont. I miss the two that was there, so I wait for the next train that comes in, which is a Five. Now, it gets stuck outside the station for around two minutes for some unexplained reason; I even hear the HVAC blowers go off in that period of time. When it pulls in and I board, I see a couple of fine-looking women sitting near the T/O's cab, so naturally for a man my age I decide to sit near them and eavesdrop (first one to laugh gets it ;-)
It's pouring relativly heavy outside, which they complain about. Then they complement the smooth-ride of the R-142 they're on (#6461, BTW), though I think to myself "if they only knew..." Then as the train nears Tremont, the automated P/A goes off again "This is a Eastchester-bound Five Train. The next stop is West Farms Square..." That gets them talking about what the heck West Farms Square is and means, along with the conflict with the common passenger knowledge of the stop as "East Tremont Avenue." I try to explain to them the possibility of the station being renovated in the near future, but one them snaps back, "It'll still be there?" Giggles. I go on to say how the TA normally changes the name of some stations when they are renovated, giving the example of Broadway Junction (formerly Bway-East NY, and Bway-Eastern Pway). Regardless, they come back saying how the system of calling the station "West Farms Square" is confusing, especially for tourists, and they noted how the confusion is added by the automated station stop board says both names of the station but the announcement will only say "West Farms Sq."
Today, I get a Five at Boro Hall in Bklyn. Good thing, since I have to get to E. 180th. Even better since it would be my first ride on the Thru Express with the R-142s. Only problem is that I was so tired that I slept periodically up Lexington, and then up the Thru Express. Oh well!
Yes riding the #2 train, arriving at stops in Manhattan, I was on #6800. Yes it still had announcements on #9 trains, PATH trains at Park Place, #2 being express when it isn't. The #6 having the F transfer at 53rd, when the transfer for the F is at 59th, and the V and W not being put in. Hopefully these announcements will be changed soon.
The R143's on the L have the correct annoucements, except for the 9 at 6th Avenue, while the R142s on the 5 also have the correct announcements except for the 3 at Fulton, Boro Hall, Nevins, Atlantic and Franklin. But within a few months, those transfers will be correct again. The 4 will probably have the correct transfers at 59th, 14th and Atlantic too. Let's hope the TA will begin upgrading the announcements on the 2 and 6 trains in time for when the N and W flip service hours on 9/8 (the transfer at Boro Hall will be affected by that) and 1 service is restored to South ferry.
I don't understand why the R142 conductors weren't simply instructed to do manual announcements during this period.
Those automactic announcements can be shut off, correct?
I've heard some conductors make their own announcements on the new trains when the automatic announcements are wrong.
- Lyle Goldman
HAHHHH the brand new R-142 5 trains have all the same probulms as the 6 trains. They have done firmware updates on the trains (like the ticker says step away from doors when someone is in them and the door closes on them) I think a month ago. Yet they still don't update the routemaps. (Screw all of you that said changing them is really easy and they will be routinly taken down and replaced like ads.)
dont count on it,it actually costs a lot of money to get the strip maps changed since its computerized.so dont expect it for awhile
When the election is over, they'll begin the process of raising fares and cutting services, both at the MTA and elsewhere.
Expect most of the fiscal pain to be directed to New York City. In the early 1990s, the City was targeted for tax increases and cuts because with so many people on welfare, we didn't deserve public services. In the late 1990s, the city was given less of the fiscal benefits of its own growing economy because city residents were used to paying more and having less, so we didn't need it. Now we will be cut -- just because.
Speaking specifically of the subway, choice one is to increase the fare. I suggest an increase to $2.00 during rush hours, rather than $1.75 overall. The monthly pass would increase to $75, the weekly to $20, and the daily to $5, but still $4 if first used after 9:30 A.M. or on a weekend.
Next, believe it or not, I'd cut rush hour service, and try to convince people to travel at other times. Service is too infrequent at other times as it is.
Next, I'd cut back the subway network during the late night hours, replacing it with shuttle buses.
Needless to say, I don't expect any fare increases or service reductions on the commuter railroads.
$5, but still $4 if first used after 9:30 A.M. or on a weekend.
How is the clerk going to know when a customer first uses the pass?
There could be two types.
BTW, clerks don't sell the pass.
Another option would be to allow unlimited to hold money. Fill the unlimited with $1 if you want to use it weekdays before 9:30, the $1 is deducted on first use if necessary and the card becomes a "super fun pass." If not necessary, then the dollar stays and after expiration you can use it as a PPR card.
BTW, I'm just thinking how it could be. I wouldn't recommend this.
By cutting rush hour service, I hope you don't plan on messing with the (3) and the <5> extra service.
By cutting rush hour service, I hope you don't plan on messing with the (3) and the <5> extra service That service is needed, especially with all the people that ride up to the North Bronx.
Your plan makes so much sense. Punish hard-working, productive members of society by charging them more. Meanwhile, let all the lazy welfare bums and non-working-mothers-with-6-kids who wake up at noon anyway to go pick up their subsidy checks ride cheaper?
You sir, need your head examined.
Unfortunately, this is similar to what Queens Surface did with their off peak fares.
(Your plan makes so much sense. Punish hard-working, productive members of society by charging them more. Meanwhile, let all the lazy welfare bums and non-working-mothers-with-6-kids who wake up at noon anyway to go pick up their subsidy checks ride cheaper? You sir, need your head examined.)
That's right, New York City's fiscal problems are because of all those million people on welfare.
What, there isn't one million people on welfare, and we still have high taxes and inadequate services? Well that may be true arithmatically, but it isn't true politically. It can't be because the city is being drained from without, now can it.
what is this hatred of mothers who need asiatance in order 2 live !
anyway being a mother is a TOUGH job us men need to learn this !!
all welfare reciepents WORK for thier benifits !! you can see many
of them working thier asses off at transit stations !!!
hopefully one day you will not need unemployment food stamps or some
social service in the future !! Yes new york is full of LAZY rich
coporate welfare LEECHES ..enron ...and a whole list of em !!
please get a life and leave the less fortunate alone give em a break!
welfare workfare reciepents are some of the most hardest workers!!
anyway being a mother is a TOUGH job us men need to learn this !!
People who cannot take it, should not have children. If they are irresponsible enough to get pregnant, and they cannot support their children, there are plenty of people unable to have children who would love the burden.
next time pig say "thank you" to your mother i bet you were one big
hellraiser when you were growing up with her !!!
do you have any children...? mr expert ??
Calm down, I don't think he is criticizing all mothers. But if you live and travel around NYC (or any area that has it's share of idiots) long enough, you see parents with more kids then they could possibly handle. Kids with no father, kids that the mother can't afford, or just kids that the mother doesn't have the mental capacity to deal with or raise correctly.
This obviously doesn't apply to all mothers, but if you think that 100% of the women are capable of raising children decently, it's not true.
There's nothing at all wrong with a woman having children, but I do get peeved when a woman gets knocked up, can't afford to raise a child by herself, the man runs away, and she doesn't believe in abortions, and then wants the system to bail her out.
This is a classic topic of discussion, but it doesn't belong here. Lets just say we have our difference of opinions and leave it at that, ok?
OK....sorry ............
I wasn't blaming our problems on welfare (although it would be a VERY good place to look, but that would be completely off topic for this site). I was saying that people who actually make our economy GO, the productive people who wake up early, bust their asses getting into work by 9 am, check in, check out, and have to use public transportation during rush hour, those are the people you'd be punishing.
Yet the people who do nothing for society, and even worse, do nothing AND steal by forcing money out of the government, who don't have to leave during rush hour, those are the people you give discounts to?
You're essentially rewarding people to be less productive.
Actually not. The real goal of this kind of pricing is to stread the rush hour ut over more hours. There is no way that we can provide MORE service during the rush hour, but it costs us little, in the way of transit resources to make the rush hour LONGER. You do this by charging more for the peek trains and less for the other trains. Those as who are able to use an earlier or later train might be enticed to do so.
At least this is the idea. I fully approve of it as applied to automobiles trying to enter the city, but I dont think that it translates well into the subway and transit system. The enticement for change there needs to be with the employeer, since he or she is in a better position to stager work hours. Employeers who can manage a 6AM or 7AM start time Should reap a benefit. Likewise those who can arrange an 11 am or a Noon start time. I'm not sure what that benefit might look like, since people will scream bloody murder (and wrongly so) for a corporate or business tax break, benefit might be seen on utility bills.
Or perhaps do it the other way around: apply a transit tax to business whose priciple start hours are between 0800 and 1000 hours.
Exemption form the transit tax is prorated on the percentage of eplyees reporting before 0740 or after 1020 hours.
Elias
""wake up at noon ""...???
where did U git' dat' from ??..........!
& then the 6 children format .......??
I'd cut rush hour service, and try to convince people to travel at other times.
Please remember the tale of the Lexus Lanes. Several years ago, California built toll lanes paralleling the (IIRC) Riverside Freeway. Access would be limited to holders of EZPass-style passes and tolls would be substantially higher during rush hours. People immediately dubbed them the "Lexus Lanes," figuring that upscale, suit-covered-anus sorts would be willing to pay the high tolls in order to avoid SoCal's notorious traffic jams.
Users surveys have shown that the Lexus Lanes are more like the Ten-Year-Old-Ford-Escort Lanes. A significant percentage of the users, far higher than anyone would have predicted, are mainly lower-middle-class working stiffs who probably couldn't afford a hubcap for a Lexus. People like this pay to use the tolls lanes, often incurring a not-insignficant burden, because by and large they have to be at work at specific times and can't risk the delays on the regular freeway. You can't tell a time clock that there was a traffic jam. Even during evening rush hours these working stiffs often had to use the toll lanes because of family responsibilities, most frequently the need to pick up the kids before day care closed.
The real Lexus drivers, in contrast, often had enough flexibility in their working hours so that they had no need to use the toll lanes. They could use the regular freeway at times when traffic was lighter, and more importantly did not usually have to face any serious consequences if traffic delays got them into work a bit late.
You can probably see what this means for higher rush-hour subway fares. Ordinary working people with no flexibility over work hours will make up a disproportionate share of those paying the premiums. In other words, the higher fares won't soak the rich.
>>Next, believe it or not, I'd cut rush hour service, and try to convince people to travel at other times. Service is too infrequent at other times as it is.<<
There's a reason it's called rush hour. People have to be at work at a certain time. Since it falls into that rush hour time it would inconvienence too many people. Instead change Rush hour times from 7AM-10 AM and 2PM-6PM.
>>Speaking specifically of the subway, choice one is to increase the fare. I suggest an increase to $2.00 during rush hours, rather than $1.75 overall. The monthly pass would increase to $75, the weekly to $20, and the daily to $5, but still $4 if first used after 9:30 A.M. or on a weekend.<<
How about this:
Rush hour:$2.00 Monthly Pass:$70
Middays:$1.75 Weekly Pass:$17
Evenings:$1.50 Daily Pass:$6.25
Nights:$1.00
Weekends:$1.00
Holidays:$1.50
It's a strange arrangement but it would work
this plan is going down in san francisco costs $5.oo to cross
the bridges BART AC and all of the trolleys and buses going up in
fare hikes !!
the peoples salaries and incomes going down .......................!
Larry, my friend, since you have only a tenuous grasp on reality here, I don't know where to begin... ;)
"In the early 1990s, the City was targeted for tax increases and cuts because with so many people on welfare, we didn't deserve public services."
Ah, my favorite right-wing mantra. Rush and Sean couldn't have said it better. It's the people on wlefare! Those lazy stiffs take our tax dollars and keep popping out babies. Yeah, that's how it is.
"Next, believe it or not, I'd cut rush hour service, and try to convince people to travel at other times. Service is too infrequent at other times as it is."
Everyone doesn't pack into those trains during the rush because it is the trendy thing to do. Subway service reflects society's diurnal patterns. Period. We work during the day and sleep at night. You'll have to change society first.
"Needless to say, I don't expect any fare increases or service reductions on the commuter railroads."
Why? Because that's how you get to work? Not your money, right?
New York City's tax dollars are drained to support the wealthy suburbs because thats where our politicos get their support. That welfare mother isn't going to be writing any campaign contribution checks. She's too busy working two minimum wage jobs.
MATT-2AV
Matt. methinks you missed Larry's points a bit. As I read him, the 'targeting' of NYC WAS a right wing assualt on the poor. As to suburban service, from his previous posts, Larry lives in Windsor Terrace (Brooklyn) and uses the subway to work each day ditto wife. His point is EXACTLY that the suburban upper/middle class will sacrifice the subway to keep their bennies just as ending the 'commuter' income tax savaged he city budget while cutting taxes for the suburbanites.
I missed the sarcasm. In that case, my point is moot.
I'll be in Chicago for business July 5 (Friday) and was going to do a bit of L-fanning that afternoon/evening, dinner, and then Saturday morning head out to IRM before heading back home in the evening. Any of you boys in Chicago want to meet up?
Guys (&/or Gals):
Watch out for the "bulls"! CTA Operating employees were VERY touchy when I visited June 17-18 and are on special alert this week.
Expect to be challenged!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Where and who harrased you? To bad you weren't on my train. I would have more than happy to let you up front.
Where and who harrased you? To bad you weren't on my train. I would have been more than happy to let you up front.
Dave:
On Saturday I'll be out at IRM volunteering (as usual) and I would be happy to give you the 5-cent tour. If you're interested, e-mail me at fullparallel_at_wideopenwest.com and I'll try to set up a meeting place and time at IRM.
Also, keep in mind that you'll be in Chicago during the thick of the "Taste of Chicago" festival along the lakefront. Expect horrendous parking in the Loop and enormous crowds downtown... but GREAT food if you're willing to brave the crowds. :-)
Frank Hicks
Dave, it would be my pleasure to once again show you around. I am working the Purple(Evanston) Line. E-mail me privately, and I'll give you my schedule.
I'd be willing to meet up if nothing else comes up. Let me know where and when.
-- David
Chicago, IL
David, are you going to be able to make it out to Union on the Fourth? I hope so - it's really going to be a blast. We'll be running a two-car wood CA&E train (carrying passengers in both cars), which is something we've never been able to do until now. And, of course, you don't want to miss the Trolley Pageant!
Frank Hicks
Unfortunately not, Frank. I usually come up for the trolley pageant but can't make it this year.
Unfortunately, It's looking pretty doubtful... I've already planned some activites with friends here in Chicago. However, I'll try to make it out there with the rest of the gang the following Saturday.
-- David
Chicago, IL
What was the date of the "farewell to the "Q" cars" fantrip on the Third Ave. El.? I believe it was early 1973. And what were the car numbers? I was the last C/R on the Third Ave. El in April 1973; I trust it was just prior to that. I'd appreciate any help you can give me.
Bob: Bite your tongue. It was not a Q-Type fantrip on the el but a five car train composed of two Pullman Lo-VMs,two ACF Lo-VMs and a Pullman Lo-VT. Actually the fantrip started out from Grand Central on shuttle track No 1 (MM4) with all six restored Lo-Vs; 5443-4902-5446-5493-5292-5290. One of the Lo-VMs (5446 I think) developed a bad case of heartburn enroute (someone mentioned the Sea Beach Line) and had to be dropped off at the Westchester Square Yard. The other five cars made two round trips on the 3 Avenue El Line. The Lo-Vs whistle was constantly blowing and local resident cheered and waved to us as we went by. It was a proper IRT send-off for a great rapid transit line and the last of the IRT Els.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, Didn't the Q cars go back to the BMT about 1958 to work on the Myrtle Ave Line?
Karl: The Q's and QX's ran on the IRT until December of 1956 when they were replaced by the Steinways.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'll try to keep this in order: first big question is what happened during the night after the 3rd Ave el was shut down? The Claremont Parkway station destroyed by fire...likely arson, too typical of the Bronx in those days. Did I miss the line..not really. Upper Broadway and Westchester Ave 2 and 5 line had nicer stations and upper Broadway wasn't mean at all. 3rd ave was a war zone at the end [but by far not the only one] There was a Q fantrip on 3rd ave...I have an article with some of Joe Frank's pics there...but when? car equipment: You and Karl are both right....true the Q's were replaced by Steinways in December 1956 but they were then placed in storage, on 3rd ave...don't know when they went to Coney Island for painting and some modifications for sure, but they went into service inApril 1958 on Myrtle replacing the last BU's [1300 sries only].For finishers there were never any QX units on 3rd ave.They tried adding a QX motor to 2-Q sets to make a 7 car train as the MUDC's had but it didn't work out, so they reduced the MUDC's to 6 cars and kept it uniform. The Q's were 2 feet longer per car and in some places it didn't fit...basically a 7 car MUDC overhung the platforms like 10 car High-V etc and the doors all had to open on Q's..like R17 etc compared to Low-V, etc. The QX motors wound up in BMT work service after the Astoria/Flushing 1949 changeover. [the other half of QX pairs was a trailer]
Ed: Your absolutely right about the QXs. I had forgotten that. I didn't know the reason though was is very interesting. So you were the conductor on the last 3 Avenue El trip. It certainly was a great run. I answered Bob in another post about which Qs might have been running in the early 70s.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually it was Bob who was the last Conductor on 3rd ave; I only went for a ride the last afternoon to pay y respects. The R12's didn't do anything for me at all.I was the motorman on one of the last Myrtle trains and the next to the last fantrip [10/4/69] on Myrtle and other lines, with the Q's.Joe Lyons was the last passenger service Motorman on Myrtle, Sunday 10/5/69 fantrip.
Hi Larry,
I know about the Low-V fan trip being the actual last train to operate on the Third Ave. El on April 28th, 1973. I was the C/R on that train and Martin Begley was my Motorman. But according to an article by Joe Frank there was also a "return of the "Q" cars" fantrip on the Third Avenue El. It came with photos and said it occurred in early 1973 but no specific date or car numbers. Of course, it had to be prior to the Low-V fan trip as that was the final train to polish its rails. Larry, if it's not too much trouble, maybe you could research this information a little further. Maybe the year is wrong but certainly there was a "Q" car fan trip in the '70s. As always, thanks for your help.
Sincerely,
Bob
Bob: Thanks for being so good natured about my chiding. I have looked into my records and didn't find anything about a Q-type fan trip. All that means is that is probably wasn't run by the ERA or Brooklyn Polytech. It may have been run by the NRHS or one of the trolley museums. As to the cars that might have been used we can eliminate most of the Qs since they were scrapped soon after the Myrtle El stopped running. A few survived for several years after the el was torn down. 1622ABC certainly also 1602ABC and possibly 1612.
1602ABC was on the infamous October 1980 scraplist which decimated many cars that had been held for museum purposes. Fortunately 1602A was saved and survives at Kingston. The only other surviving Q that I know of was 1612B which along with the two surviving QXs 1630B and 1635B would not have been available for fantrip purposes as they were assingned to the pump train. These three cars are in very bad shape and when I last saw them they were down at the South Brooklyn Railway Yard.
Regarding this article by Joe Frank do you have a copy of it? Was it published in any of the railfan journals? It would make interesting reading.
Best Wishes
Larry,RedbirdR33
Bob: Thanks for being so good natured about my chiding. I couldn't find any reference to a Q-type fantrip on the 3 Avenue El in the early 70's. All this means is that the trip was probably not run by the ERA or Broolyn Polytech. Most Q units were scrapped soon after the Myrtle El stopped running but a few certainly did survive and would have been available for fantrips. Certainly 1622 and 1602 and possibly 1612. 1622ABC and 1612C are now at the Transit Museum at Court Street. 1602ABC survived until the infamous October 1980 scraplist which decimated many cars that had been held for preservation. 1602A was saved fortunately saved for the TMNY a Kingston. 1631B was also on that October list. The only other surviving Q's are 1612B,1630B and 1635B which are in very bad shape.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
TO: BklynSubwayBob
In response to your question about the Q type trip on the 3rd Avenue El which my old IRT friend from the long ago past NYC, Ed Davis (bigedirtmanl) mentions an magazine article by me with photos -
Here are all the details of the trip:
The Trip was Featured as: IRT - BRONX EL's - The Return on the "Q" - Fantrip on Saturday, October 31, 1970 - sponsored by the Electric Railroaders Assn:
Train set consisted of two 3-car Q units - # 1602 A-B-C and the 1965 Worlds Fair retro-1939-painted (blue bodies with silver roofs and orange trim) # 1622 A-B-C
It was just under 14 years from December 1956 to October 31, 1970, that the Q types last operated on the 3rd Avenue El - albeit in this trip, only on the surviving Bronx portion, and "modified (uglified) from their original "good looks" (Ed WILL agree!) since their previous polishing the rails on the "EL" until Dec.1956. They initially entered service in early 1950 on the Manhattan & Bronx 3rd Ave El entire route as AM & PM express-service trains only - replacing Ed's venerable old Composite ex-subway car trainsets. They were too heavy with passenger loads to operate in Local Service on the Manhattan portion of the El's 1870's era local-tracks supporting lattice track girders and lattice El columns structure...but could operate "light" (no pasengers) for return moves on those tracks only.
Ed is absolutely correct (as usual) --regards the 7th QX unit motor car test - a 7 car Q-consist was just too long for certain station platforms and the quarter-point position Q-type end doors could not be "cut out" like on Manhattan El MUDC's, or Hi and Low-V subway car (or gate car "gates") for ends of cars over-shooting platform ends.
The trip started at at 11:00 AM Saturday, 10/31/70 at East 180th Street IRT station (West Farms, Bronx) - and operated back and forth on the 3rd Avenue El, then on to the White Plains Road Line at Gun Hill Road. northbound, up to and including entering into the 239th Street Yards with a rail visit there.
Continuing onward, now southbound to Dyre Avenue Line connection at E .180th Street, including into the ex NYW&B station at E. 180th Street - once used as the Dyre Line southern "Dyre shuttle Line" terminal from 1941 to until about 1958. Then on to the Pelham Bay Line - via southbound on the White Plains Rd line to Bergen-149th Street tunnel portal, to south of the 125th Street. This was possible as the Q types were already retrofitted with subway type 3rd rail shoes (not the original EL type drop-shoe sleds) and had the "lowered roofs" for subway tunnel clearances for shop moves to Coney Island Yards!! Then switching tracks below that station to the # 6 line tracks for the northbound trek onto the Pelham Bay Line - with run thru into the Westchester Square yards on that line....then return to East 125th street switchover to the White Plains Road Line again, and back up to 180th Street on the White Plains Rd Line for end of trip and departure of riders.
This was the FIRST and only time the Q types ran on those covered IRT lines EXCEPT for the Third Avenue El !!! (Note: they DID serve the IRT Flushing and Astoria Lines also only as "BMT line shuttles" to Queens Plaza only on the west--- from 1939 thru late Sept. 1949 in "BMT body style" --original BMT "BU" trucks and BMT Roof Marker Light positions on lower-outer roof position --- and when they were transferred to the 3rd Ave El they had their roof markers moved to the upper "clerestory" standard IRT position to clear the Station platform canopy roofs on the Manhattan 3rd Ave El --and received the lighter (and slower) ex-IRT composite one-motor "modified maximum traction" IRT 1915 shop-built trucks for better weight distribution on the older Manhattan portion (1878 built) 3rd Ave El.
Note: An initial "test train" of "BMT style" Q's on the Manhattan 3rd Ave El in September 1949 while still sporting BMT position (outer, lower roof) markers resulted in Marker lights being sheared off by a Manhattan El station platform roof canopy - those canopies extended a bit over the edge of the platform edge--enough to foul BMT position roof markers !!! Thus, all markers were put in the tradition IRT position style.
Big Ed, glad to see you back here! Good to see a fellow mid-century New Yorker who lived with knows
the old equipment like we do. I first met you on the Myrtle Line when you were a motorman there - lets see--ummm, 34 years ago !!!
Bob, I hope this lengthy post answered some of your questions re: the 3rd Ave El "historic" Q ramble.
Regards - Bob (and Ed)
Joe
Joseph Frank
N Y City Model Transit System Display (website)
N Y City Model Transit Assn. (Co-Founder)
N Y City Transit Modelers Group Forum - (Webmaster)
Guess all I can say is, since all else is well done,that you're right about the "uglified Q's". They looked their best in their days on3rd Ave or the first few years on Myrtle...the IRT marker lght location looked so much btter than BMT style. Having the rooves cut down took them from one of the handsomest wooden el cars to the level of...glad to have them around, and I was. I never rode the composites at all, guess my first love of the subway was the IRT high-V's. I'm thankful that the Q's were around long enough for me to run them!
That's exactly how I felt about the 1/9's ... everything else that interested me was already gone. And my fellow local 100 members thought I was *insane* to want to take them out. :)
Joe: Thank you for an excellent and informative post. The actual details of the Qs transfer from Queens to Manhattan and later back to Brooklyn have always been one of the murkier sides of railfan history. Thanks for sheding some light on this.
Best Wishes,
Larry,RedbirdR33
The SEPTA trip will be next week. The prime attraction is an R3 trip to West Trenton. Trip will start around 9-10 am in Market East station. If anyone needs to make it late we can fix a time for the second leg of the trip that will be either on the PRR division R2 or R5.
Trip will start around 9-10 am in Market East station.
Since there's one West Trenton train per hour, and one leaves at 9:32 and the next at 10:32, you will wish to be a bit more specific about the starting time when the final plan is announced.
I trust that most of your are aware of the Senority System that most railroads and transit systems operate under. Basically, the most senoir member get to pick which jobs they want first. The newest hires usually get the Extra board and the oldest hires get their pick of the litter. Usually the jobs that go first are, not surprisingly, the easiest jobs, in terms of both hours and operational assignment. From what I have heard, top job picks are usually yard jobs, switc/local/transfer jobs and ->midday full shifts.
My question is, shoudln't the hardest jobs (in terms of operational difficulties) go to the more experianced or most skilled worker regardless of senority? If there's a train that it like at the height of the rush hour and absolutely positivily needs to be on time, shoduln't you put your best men on it who have the best chance of making time? Back in the day, railroads could put their best crews on their most important services. I think that the Unions have completely hogtied the managers ability to achieve an efficient operation. If you are ever wondering why modern, faster, higher-tech equipment runs at or below the scheduled times of the past, I think this is one of the reasons.
I think you're interchanging "hard" and "tedious".
I doubt many lines are much harder than others, however some may be completely underground, or very long (A and the 2 come to mind) or just are too damn far from their home. It's not shuffling off harder work to new hires, it's getting what you prefer in return for sticking thru things the longest.
My point is that there be some management flexability in assigning crews if the need arises. Having new guys work the extra board and having near retirement guys work whatever they want is perfectly fine, but in between there should be some ability to shuffle the below median employees to where they can't do any harm and the above median employees to where they are needed.
That used to be called you were a yard motorman until you qualified for the main line, at higher pay.
Seniority systems are at the heart of fair labor practices.
A good free-market way to accomplish what you are suggesting is to pay premium rates for these harder that you would identify as requiring senior employees. Price it right and the senior employees will flock to them.
Seniority systems are at the heart of fair labor practices.
Fair to who? The customers? The bottom line? We need a system that is more merit based, not age based.
In this day and age, a senority scaled pay system and good health benefits w/ dental plan is more than enough to ensure job loyalty.
If you drive a train like some old man drives a car and "on time" is a forgien concept then you deserve to work the G at nights.
Ah, youth.
Youth might have gone around the sun fewer times, but we aren't as senile.
Quite so, but in between youth and senility is experience.
And a merit based system accounts for that.
A seniority based system allows people to lay low, stay off the radar and thus breeze by. A merit based system would force people to show off their skills, or get nowhere.
A merit based system would force people to show off their skills, or get nowhere.
It's called promotions.
"A merit based system would force people to show off their skills, or get nowhere. "
But who gives out the merit badges.
It is subjective rather than objective.
You get on somebody's shit list, they pick on your faults and ignore what you do right, and you ain't going nowhere.
You kiss the brown round, and they overlook some mistakes, and write glowing reports, and you can o for the better jobs.
A good, skilled, dependable driver might have a big mouth that gets him into trouble with the supervisor.
A sloppy driver, with some attendance problems might be a drinking buddy with the boss.
Merit is probably the better way to go, but still it has problemrs.
Elias
Then only things that can be evaluated by the almighty COMPUTER should matter.
"Microsoft BOSS 6.0" ... love it. :)
I had a BOSS XP once.
he'd bust chops and write you up at the drop of a hat.
The administrator got tired of his reports, and let him go.
Elias
Musta been one of those "open sores" kinda jobbies ... a Microsoft Boss would be promising ya that the NEXT upgrade would be the charm. :)
If you drive a train like some old man drives a car and "on time" is a forgien concept then you deserve to work the G at nights.
You're assuming that the more senior T/O's are more likely to operate their trains in a leisurely manner. That could be true, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Once you get the "hang" of it after a few weeks, you generally operate faster with time, know precisely when to enter agressively and where to expect surprises on a line. ANY motorman who has picked a new line will go through similar again until they get used to the run. Now I'll give ya that motorpeople who have done a line for a long time may be much more RELAXED in operation because they know their line, but you won't find EXPERIENCED motorpeople driving like Miss Daisy on the rails. :)
That's the kids who deserve to move right up to chief dispatcher in their third week on the job who "drive" like that.
There are a few TOs at ALL levels that are slow.
And it is not he Union rules that protect them it is management scamming.
TO Leadfoot is late 6 minutes+ every run and never has a reason for the lateness. Actually he can be written up and eventually canned if they pursue him. Now the Supt. will never allow that, why? Because 6 minutes late with no explanation is on the lines record and make him look bad.
Back in my day, if you were routinely late without bad order tags filled out signed by an RCI, it was off to "regrooving" with your own personal motor instructor. If you were STILL late after that, they'd swap you off to switch duty, yard work of some sort or show you the street. Like I said, I got the impression from a number of my modern colleagues that management is off on another railroad these days. But the last thing they'd allow was PEOPLE screwing up the railroad.
What you forget is that by messing with the guy they kill their own bonus for their on time goals. One slow guy on the G can kill the % for the line so it is easier to cover it up and give big secret skips.
When I was on probation and had 'situations' come up I found a few places where they were dying to bang me in. As a probational, school car eats the charge. But, when I made it clear that management was also involved and I would not eat it for the team everything would disappear. Of course no one wanted me to write a G2 that involved a switch 'hooked' down without permission (not by me), a BIE moved without the roadbed being checked and CC and the TD ordering it.
Last week I double ended and the other guy hit a homeball we got the call on and took off. If it was me I would have been fried and crucified BUT this was a TSS so everything came up roses.
As an aside I think there is a new efficiency test in the yards. They put something near the BCO that clearly does not belong to see if you bang it in (and checked the BCO).
Wowsers ... yeah, things SURE have changed ... but I do like the cutout test. Cute. Paddle?
Last week I double ended and the other guy hit a homeball we got the call on and took off. If it was me I would have been fried and crucified BUT this was a TSS so everything came up roses.
Data recorders would solve that problem.
They put something near the BCO that clearly does not belong to see if you bang it in (and checked the BCO).
Sounds like a mentality more befitting prep school boys than a commercial enterprise.
Well it is a no win situation. Doctoring signals and removing point boards are scummy things to do OTOH it is hard to make sure people are doing what they are supposed to do.
As for data recorders lets see them read them all when all the trains have them and I am beginning to see how people are adjusting to overcome them.
I'd be thinking revenge after something like that. One weekend up at a former job, we had to do some wiring work and installation in a ceiling that went over a manager's office. So we took his desk and chair and hung them from the ceiling after we'd clocked out. Shoulda seen the look on his face on Monday when he walked into his office and his desk and chair were on the ceiling.
I know, doesn't do much good. But isn't there enough "real stuff" that goes wrong for them to determine who is and who isn't meeting "performance standards?" Methinks if the budget's tight, there's a whole layer of middle management that could be given the heave-ho and actually IMPROVE service as a result and bring the budget back into line with no service cuts ...
A friend of mine had a problem with a person at work in his mature fashion he would remove a screw from a different part of the ffice every 3 days, desk, book cases, chair. This was a converted terrace and he would put epoxy on the door just enough to make it stick. Over time the guy had to bash his door open every day until the one day he did and the vibration made everything collapse.
Well the TSS' are mandated by the feds. But I have been to the upper floors of Livingston to visit someone and seen a whole suite full of people looking at the internet, golf and train magazines.
As for the rest I will email you. There is a real problem with Union members posting stuff that is inappropriate considering management is swarming this board.
I hear ya ... and everything I've ever heard from anybody doesn't leave my trash bucket. Don't get me wrong, supervision was pretty intense back in the 70's too. It just hadn't crossed the line from "making things run somehow" to Marquis de Sade ... moo. :)
In fairness it does not always seem to come from above. Some Supts. seem nuts but for many TD and TSS' they seem to take it on themselves to be socially backwards.
When the railroad is bad you must be a ruthless bastard to right it but some people are stuck on that when there is no need or purpose. Some do it to cover lack of ability some are just mean.
I picked up a job with a huge WAA from the board, I was so gratefull becasue I was beat and planned to nap. I asked the TD 3 times do I have a put in, no check later. After checking and him saying nothing I though I hit the jackpot ate ,talked then started to sack out. The TD woke me up, threw me on a train and made noises to write me up for not going to the yard for my put in. He did not like the fact that I stopped asking him and that even though I was still on lunch I did not start to deadhead. This is also a guy who will sign your no lunch but will keep it (he will put it in later, yeah right).
It was nonsense like that at the NYS Public Service Commission that finally got me into something else ... there were some real trolls in "Hummin' resources" and some real pieces of work that wouldn't survive a day out in the "real world" in varying positions ... not to mention the stab wounds from a few "coworkers" ... there's a whole twisted culture to "civil service" that while peripherally ontopic here, would quickly go off.
But it IS amazing how civil service tests tend to be built in such a way as to make the **** float. :)
Yo SelkirkTMO: am I in trouble with you??? Problem with Civil Service is that everyone is equal...smart or stupid, experienced or not, willing and able or lazy and stupid (a redundancy factor.) If you are smart/able/experienced/willing you get recognised for that and get special assignments/left alone/more load. If you are stupid/lazy/unable/never learned anything because you don't want to work, you get recognised and are left alone....and get paid the same.
What you don't get is respect and opportunities for certification, learning and overtime work. TA is not private industry but a 'socialist form of employment' that us newbies are just beginning to understand and work with. The 'seniors' gave me a lot of flak because of my work habits...it's the same in every Division. TA work is excellent work...whatever assignment in any Division...and if you're willing to do, someone will recognise your efforts. CI Peter
Howdy Unca Pete ... nope - nobody's in trouble with me, I've just killfiled a few people who clutter up the index with wastes of reading time that I don't have. I'd never killfile my fellow local 100 folks. Just don't have a whole lot of time lately, and eliminating just two folks from the list makes my visits a whole lot faster.
As someone who has spent almost half my life in the "civil service system" all I can say is I'm glad it's behind me and I look forward to collecting that $76.55 a month when I get older. Heh. In civil service, the "Seniority system" is one of the few things that make it worth girding up and swallowing hard in your earlier years in the system. Promotions go to those who score well on tests that don't test for knowledge or experience, they test to see how good you are at passing tests. Civil Service "battery test" as but ONE shining example. Da brown stuff floats to the top, the rest learn to keep their heads down and wear a jockstrap. I, name here, do solemnly swear to uphold da constitution and to keep my head down and adjust my strap, so help me who's my supervisor today? But those who have suggestions are HEARTILY urged to take that test, get that appointment and see what changes you can make. It'll surely entertain the rest of us. :)
$ 76.55 a month isn't even 'Third Worldly Income.' So I get a different supervisor every day but that is the 'pick' I chose rather than REDBIRD UNDERCAR day after day - week after week. Next week we'll have two R142s coming in for inspection and I won't be doing special trainline battery inspection...just 'troubles and instruction.' When you're 'willing and able' you get 'cut some slack.' The best is a heartfelt 'Thankyou.' Never had that in twenty one years of private industry work. You never know how your health will hold up or what the Lord may bring.
Big BTW: Some of our 'upper management net watchers' are testing out prospective CIs and the underground tells me that the exam is very good and that TA is going to get some very good Car Inspectors. Just as an internet friend was there to welcome me on my first intimidating day, I'll be there for them. CI Peter
Yeah, when I saw what I'd be in for financially at the end of my performance evaluations, figured I'd do better out here. What motivated me to go to work for the state back in the 80's was that government would be the LAST thing to go out of business during the "Daddy's economy" ... well, thanks to the Paturkey, I was laid off twice, had an agency shot out from under me and crap for raises over the years. When the sheriff showed up to collect a bad check, it became real for me that I could no longer afford to be a "state woika" and now I'm doing something else.
Figures the economy would go back in the toilet once more once we got a dose of "junior" ... sheesh. Can't win no matter what ya do. :)
But how do you pick who is more qualified?
People should be ranked not by the number of frequent orbital miles they've accrued since getting the job, but rather by their achievements:
Safety Record
On-time record
Calmness under pressure
etc.
In fact, since one has more oppurtunity to prove themselves in a harder job, many more people will want them. A person who works an easy job will fall behind the others and eventually be forced to work the crap runs.
If there's a tie in a merit ranking, then seniority can break it.
The only person for whom the greater distance traveled around the sun is an achievement is the interplanetary astronaut. We have none of those right now.
Seniortiy and job picks by same were he only thing railroaders anywhere had to look forward to as the money, until recent years,was the same or within 10% for new hires as if you had a lifetime in...OK...promotion to motorman from conductor, to conductor or engineerfrom brakemen , fireman, etc...but looking forward to the hours you wanted, days off, less cab time, tedium, location, whatever, that's the other part of railroading besides good wages.THANK HEAVENS THE UNIONS GOT THAT FOR THEIR MEN or that would be all political too.
The biggest problem in public service is the inability to fire those who don't try their best to do a good job, and replace them with more motivated workers. As a result, you either settle for low quality (teachers) or hire extra workers to cover those who do little useful work (police). The latter strategy limits your ability to pay hire salaries, and thus attract more motivated employees.
The TA attempts to solve the problem with a heavy handed discipline process, but this can backfire and demotivate good employees, and it only addresses infractions of rules not general low effort and absenteeism. You end up with petty bickering about rules, and people going postal.
Make it easier to fire people, offer better wages and working conditions, and you'll have good people in every job.
>>> shoudln't the hardest jobs (in terms of operational difficulties) go to the more experianced or most skilled worker regardless of senority? <<<
Seniority is a hallmark of industrial type jobs where the workers are interchangeable cogs in the whole machine. There is a certain basic competency needed to operate a train safely and on schedule, and anyone who does not have that competence should not be working at all. The difference in performance as viewed objectively between the best and worst of those who do meet the minimum level of competence has only a minor effect on the overall running of the system, therefore a seniority system is appropriate.
On the other hand, jobs where individual skills are extremely important, such as sales and management, are never on a seniority basis. Each person earns according to his/her ability, and the best sales people get the best territories. This motivates the workers and maximizes the benefits to the organization.
In the middle are jobs where individual competence is very important, but due to tradition, union rules, or political reality, seniority is used. Included in these occupations are teachers, social workers and police. Merit pay and promotions, and placement of the best in the toughest positions should be the rule in these occupations, but usually is not.
Tom
Well reasoned.
The seniority system actually isn't as predictable as you think it is.
In RTO, the first jobs are usually the high paying jobs. A T/O with 30 years on the job is more likely to take a job on the F making the usual 2 round trips with 1 or 2 extra relays for 10 1/2 or 11 hours pay over an easy switching job paying only 8 hours pay. I'd say 7 out of 10 go this route. Some T/O's do this to boost their pension when they leave, some do it because they have bills up the wazoo. After the money jobs start to disappear, then the "easy" jobs go next.
Hard jobs that don't pay a lot of "money" almost always go to the junior guys. And believe it or not, a junior man is more likely to be on time for work or even early over a senior guy. True there are people with high/low seniority on both sides of this fence, but I'm looking at it on the whole. A low seniority man needs the job, while a high seniority man might have his retirement papers in his back pocket and may be set in his ways.
You forgot to add what would you replace seniority with.
You and I see the death notices and see just how many people have relatives that could help each other out. Replacing seniority with nepotism is not an improvement.
It should be replaced with a computer calculated ranking system.
Based on what? Good looks? Smoothness of stopping? A winning personality? On-time performance? The ability to kiss butt? Co-worker evaluations?
Best mustache
Best IRT Route Guide
>>> It should be replaced with a computer calculated ranking system <<<
And where do you find one of these miraculous computers that could come up with a completely objective ranking system without the biases of the programmers, or the lack of common sense computers are famous for.
Tom
The biggest issue is the days off.
Thanks to all who responded to my post wherein I asked a bunch of basic questions about SIRT, Si Ferry, and the Subway. Unfortunately I was unable to go up to NY on the day I thought I would, slept 2 hrs too late.
Instead I did the NJT Dover Boonton and M&E line loop. I had to start down in Princeton Jct, cause I live outside philly, caught an NEC train up to Newark Penn, rode path to Hoboken, with the change at Journal Square. I had an old Boonton line Timetable that showed the first westbound as 1:32, so at 1:35 when I detrained from the PATH, I thought for sure I had missed it. Not so, with NJT's rather variable schedules, the train left at 1:47, enough time to even get a ticket! I rode that train out to Dover, at first excited by it's low run over the Meadowlands, and it's vast change from the anticeptic NEC, however, out past Towaco or so, it started to get old, and the single train crawling it's way to Denville at say, 35mph tops. I still think that the Boonton line is really nice, quite scenic, and actualy reminded me of the CNW Metra lines out of chicago. Just make sure you have a lot of time, and maybe a book.
I got off the Boonton line at Dover, and hunted for a TVM or Ticket office, oddly missing from an electric station, oh well, I guess I'm just used to the NEC. I now regret passing up the Dover-Hoboken train that I coulda gotten off at Morristown to look at the Morristown & Erie shops while waiting for the Midtown Direct to NYP. But I stayed at Dover, and waited for that Midtown direct there, don't ask me why. If I had thought of it, I would filled up my camera before heading off, as it was all I did was carry it around empty. I woulda snapped some pictures of what the stations on the Morristown line looks like today, since most of those pics are over 25 years old.
My conductor on the Midtown Direct had some problems with silver dollars, golden dollars and quarters, which, by now, after two TVMs and a Parking Pass deal at PJ, I had tons of. The ride was enjoyable, other than three separate HEP cutouts from my Comet III or IV and ALP 44 pairing (are these common?), with a kinda express thing happening down past Summit, it was a different way to see kearny, compared to the usual view from the NEC.
I got to NYP in the midst of rush hour, and found it about as crowded as normal, went and got a Nathans "Moose and Squirrel" Dog (ok, I'm not a fan of hot dogs, other than Chicago vienna beefs). And settled down to await the 5:15 "super express" to PJ, I was quite excited, the train stopped nowhere before Princeton Jct! Then reality bit hard, that "super express" was an Amtrak Clocker, not open to those with one way peak tickets, such as myself. I resigned myself to an Arrow III express from Newark to Metropark, and found myself right in front of track 7, where my train was announced, certainly a first, usually I'm at 2, and the train is at 13, or i'm at 9 and the train is at 1. I walked down the platform, got on the third car from the front, settled down, a lady sat down next to me, everything fine, we start moving. Haven't even cleared the platform when good old 1347 gives up, A/C, lights, traction motor sounds, everything, just stops. I have never ridden on such a quite train car, It was great, peaceful, truely the best way to see the tunnel. I may have caught a glimpse of the third rail, I was on the left side, does anyone know what side it is on, I don't know which of the two tunnels I was in. Finally, the crew comes on the PA to say that the Third and Fourth Cars have had an MA reset (I think that's right), and that this knocked out the AC, Lights and such. Just about half the car gets up and walks forward or back, while we cruise by the MMC, and I finally get a glimpse of the ALP46s, both of em, beautiful, can't wait to ride behind them. Now I have both seats to myself, and Newark is downright funny, as the darkened car approaches, crowds on the platforn run in fear from the apparition of a hot car. We stop at Newark, pick up our pax, and depart, as we pass under the path track, lights and all come back, and there is no announcement. Later down Linden through Metropark or so, we encounter some rain and lightning storms, always a favorite on a train. All in all, this was probably the best rush hour NEC ride I have ever had
Thats about all I can think of,
Thanks for letting me waste your time.
This has almost nothing to do with either NYC or the subway system, but it does have to do with commuter rail and it's in the general New York area. My notes tell me that the Delaware & Ulster Rail Ride, a tourist train operation in Arkville NY (about 35 miles W-NW of Kingston), owns a trio of Pennsylvania Railroad MP54 electric MU commuter cars. According to my notes, they're numbers 441, 444 and 447. Has anyone been to the Delaware & Ulster recently who could tell me whether these cars are still there; what they're used for; what shape they're in; and any other information? THANKS!!
Frank Hicks
There is a photo of them on their site at http://www.durr.org/ but I couldn't find any details on the roster there. I'm sure they're still in use however ...
Yes Frank, they are still there. Those cars are needed as well as the open bench cars for their tourist runs. I saw them there two weeks ago when I was on vacation. Also that high hood GP-7 or 9 painted up in Delaware and Hudson colors is responsible for those runs.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll be in NYC on 7/4, but I don't have my evening plans set at this time. If I end up being alone, is there a good subway platform (like on an elevated portion on the #2 or #7, etc) to view the Macy's Fireworks? I'd preferably like to be a little ways out...my eyes enjoy the displays, but the noise doesn't work for my ears. -Nick
Smith-9St on the F line comes into mind. It's also a good site to watch the lower Manhattan Sky line anytime.
Saint George in Staten Island is probably a good family place to watch. Subway sandwich shop on the road behind the viewing area. It is between the ferry terminal and the ball park, I believe there are still some spots there where you can watch the fireworks. I'm not sure because the last time I went there was in 1992 before the ballpark opened.
Other than that there are some spots along the shore of Western Brooklyn and Queens that will be nice. They might be crowded because the local peoples will be there.
"Smith-9St on the F line comes into mind. It's also a good site to watch the lower Manhattan Sky line anytime."
This sounds like a good idea, probabky not too much obstruction, and hopefully far enough away where my ears can handle it. -Nick
In all likelyhood you won't be along there.
Good News: There will be other people also watching.
Bad News: There might be people who'll try to mug someone.
Other places to watch fireworks might be anywhere from the Queensboro projects to Brooklyn Bridge. The trick will be finding a place where no one else knows about.
I'll keep that in mind! Is Smith-9th Streets kind of a rough area, since its not too far from Bedford-Stuyvesant? -Nick
Smith-9th is not Bedford-Stuyvesant. It's (I think) South Brooklyn. If anything it's more deserted than anything. On July 4th night there will probably be people there watching the fireworks. But as soon as they're done, get out of there.
"Smith-9th is not Bedford-Stuyvesant. It's (I think) South Brooklyn. If anything it's more deserted than anything. On July 4th night there will probably be people there watching the fireworks. But as soon as they're done, get out of there."
Ok..dunno if I'll watch them there, or find another "distant" spot, but thanks for all the info! -Nick
Why do people think Smith-9th is in Bedford-Stuyvesant? It's nowhere near Bedford-Stuyvesant, but this isn't the first time I've heard such a claim. Is there a map floating around that mislabels Brooklyn neighborhoods?
There are maps that shows the neighborhoods of Brooklyn. Probably the most common map is the 5 boro atlas of NYC. I believe the person who started this thread said that when he first started asking about fireworks sites.
>>Smith-9St on the F line comes into mind. It's also a good site to watch the lower Manhattan Sky line anytime.<<
Doesn't sound good to me. Smith-9th Sts. focuses on lower Manhattan, while Macy's fireworks are more nearest to Midtown, past the Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was asked for a place where one could see the fireworks without being too close to the sound.
If you know of a better location, I'd like to know about it. I'd like to see them myself.
"I was asked for a place where one could see the fireworks without being too close to the sound.
If you know of a better location, I'd like to know about it. I'd like to see them myself."
Hmmm...do I sense a possibility of a subtalk field trip/outing? I'll be in The Bronx at 1 PM for the Yankees-Indians game, and then I'm free after that. -Nick
Someone was saying Smith-9th was too far from the fireworks. I was just reminding him about your request for aplace that was close enough to see the fireworks. Without being too close to the sound.
>>I was asked for a place where one could see the fireworks without being too close to the sound.
If you know of a better location, I'd like to know about it. I'd like to see them myself.<<
Well.....this might be a stretch. But about 11 years ago, a friend of mine and I went to the Queensboro Bridge outer roadway (south) since it was closed for traffic. We lucked out because the Police had just closed off the roadway, yet we weren't chased off. I had my camera and tripod, but it still was a bit north of the fireworks action. As far as the Queenboro Bridge goes, with 9/11 and renewed threats in mind, the outer roadway may be closed off.
As far as other vantage points go, I can't think of any others. There's 45th Rd-Courthouse Sq on the #7, but those steel windscreens may obstruct your sight. The Macy*s fireworks event is something unusual. If you're not on the FDR Drive with all of humanity, you're too far from the action. Sorry I couldn't have been of more help.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was thinking myself of a place on the East River waterfront about 4 blocks west of 23 St/Ely. I doubt if that spot will be deserted. It's probably a local resident's choice viewing spot.
Not quite what you asked about, but Roosevelt Island Operating Corp. offers seats with excellent views at the south end of the island (with on-site port-o-sans) for $15.
Good excuse to take the tramway there and then the subway back (tramway has a huge line after the fireworks but the subway can handle the load). With the new routing the subway service should actually be reasonably frequent rather than the 20-minute shuttle schedule RI often had.
The Tram is running?
Oops. Good question. I don't know.
The Tram SHOULD be running, I rode it for the first time a few weeks ago
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
According to the "Minutes" section of http://www.rioc.com/, supposedly it was to be back in operation by March 25, 2002.
It is. I passed by it on foot a few weeks ago and saw it in action.
I considered riding it for fun, but I didn't know the cost. Anyone happen to know how much it is?
$1.50. Metrocard not accepted.
Upper level of Queensboro plaza. Great view of the whole East River.
Also I guess the elevated IND platform at Smith-9th would also be good.
I was thinking maybe somewhere along the 7 line.
Anyway, my dad has a friend who has an apartment in Manhattan right on the East River on the 21st floor, and it's right inbetween the Williamsburg and Queensborough Bridges. He has a party every 4th of July....maybe I'll come this year. ^_^
Just thought I'd drop a line to let everybody know I've got some photos of Boston and Lake Tahoe uploaded to the "Photo Galleries" section of my site, The Nth Ward. In addtion, my design portfolio has been given a new look to match the rest of the site. My portfolio includes a couple of transit-related projects. Enjoy!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Timeline of Service Improvements
June 16, 2002 Schedule Change for Northeast Corridor/North Jersey Coast Lines
Four more cars will be added to Amtrak Clocker train 628 (serving Trenton, Princeton Junction, Newark and New York), and NJ TRANSIT monthly/weekly tickets will be allowed on three additional Amtrak trains - train nos. 170, 100, 180.
10 evening peak period trains - a combination of Northeast Corridor and North Jersey Coast Line trains - will get a total of approximately 16 additional cars.
To accommodate customers attending events at Madison Square Garden, two cars will be added to a later evening train and an additional late night train will be added. Four cars will be added to Amtrak Clocker service in the evening.
August 18, 2002 Schedule Change for Northeast Corridor Line
(The specifics of the changes below are currently under review)
A total of four inbound (to New York) trains and four outbound (from New York) trains will be added onto the Northeast Corridor service on Saturdays.
September 8, 2002 Schedule Change for Northeast Corridor/North Jersey Coast Lines
(The specifics of the changes below are currently being finalized)
Immediately after Labor Day and in concert with the end of our special summer service trains, two morning peak period trains will be added, creating approximately 2,000 additional seats.
Two additional evening trains will add 2,000 seats.
September 29, 2002 Schedule Change for Montclair Branch/Boonton Line
September 30, the new Montclair Connection service will begin, adding a total of 9,500 seats on morning and evening peak period trains serving the Montclair Connection. This service will also provide some capacity relief to current Morris & Essex Lines customers who transfer at Broad Street Station in Newark for New York service.
Bi-Levels are on the Way
The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey's Board has allocated $250 million towards the purchase of 231 new bi-level rail cars. These will be specially designed to accommodate our system and fit through the Hudson River tunnels. Each car has approximately 30% more seats than the existing single-level cars. North Jersey Coast Line, Northeast Corridor, and MidTOWN DIRECT service customers can look forward to approximately 20,000 more seats. When combined with the new Comet V coaches, which are currently being delivered, we will have approximately an additional 33,000 seats.
NJ TRANSIT's recently established Capacity Task Force, created by Executive Director George Warrington, is up to the challenge of getting back to the basics. The task force is focusing on immediate equipment utilization and scheduling improvements, as well as mid to longer term opportunities to accelerate or fast track, to the greatest extent possible, overall system capacity expanding projects relating to track, signal yards, terminals, and equipment. It's important to note that Amtrak, who we have a continuing partnership with, is helping us to get passengers into New York as outlined above. We will also continue to analyze our operation, the way we schedule trains, equipment manipulation and our physical plant, with the goal of further reducing standees.
Thank you for your continued support and patience. Please be assured that NJ TRANSIT is committed to the smart management of our assets and rapid response to our customers' demands.
Underlying all of this, of course, is the need to squeeze all those trains through one inbound track.
What is the status of NJ's proposal to put under rail tunnel under the Hudson connecting to Penn Station?
Underlying all of this, of course, is the need to squeeze all those trains through one inbound track.
AMTRAK of course knows about this so it should be fine. I can't wait to see the added trains.
What is the status of NJ's proposal to put under rail tunnel under the Hudson connecting to Penn Station?
I don't understand what you're saying. Could you please restate your question?
Currently, only two tracks (one tunnel) feed train traffic across the Hudson (not counting PATH). AIM posted an excellent reply, by the way.
There is a proposal, estimated at up to $5.4 billion, to drop an additional tunnel under the Hudson. This would provide full four-track service from New York through Philadelphia to Delaware, (at some point it becomes two tracks again, I think.
The purpose is to guarantee Acelas and Metroliners an express track all the way into Penn Station, while NJ Transit commuter trains get the local track.
The purpose is to guarantee Acelas and Metroliners an express track all the way into Penn Station, while NJ Transit commuter trains get the local track.
Are the Acelas and the Metroliners delayed because of the 2-track tunnel?
That does happen. And if one track is out of service, passengers are down to one track period.
Putting an additional two tracks in helps remove that bottleneck and allows for increases in frequency of service. With the new direct to Penn services now starting, that will become important.
At the end of the new tunnels (if they're built), where will they coincide? If you exit out of those tubes going into Penn, the 2 tracks from the tunnels split into four, and there are concrete walls on both sides of them. The left section of tracks are LIRR trains going to West Side Yard, and there is another section of tracks on the right side used by NJT.
What are the tracks on the right side of the Hudson River tubes used for? I was thinking of Sunnyside Yard but that is east of Penn Sta.
What are the tracks on the right side of the Hudson River tubes used for?
Riverside Park tunnel for Amtrak to the Hudson Line.
I don't know how the geometry of a new Hudson tunnel would look. There might have to be so rearrangement of track on both ends. It is very do-able, though.
In Delaware Amtrak becomes 3 tracks. No big deal.
They'd also have to build another bridge adjacent to Portal to get 4 tracks from NYP to Newark.
Not only that, how will the four tracks fit at Harrison? There's only room for the two PATH tracks, two regular catenary powered tracks, and only room for one more track if I'm not mistaken.
Also, before entering Portal going s/b, are there resources available (is it possible) from this status to build an extra bridge and a track into Newark for four tracks?
"Not only that, how will the four tracks fit at Harrison? There's only room for the two PATH tracks, two regular catenary powered tracks, and only room for one more track if I'm not mistaken."
The proposal (details of which I have not read) may envision an elevated track at Harrison or a tunnel. When the ROW isn't wide enough, you either widen it or add upper/lower levels.
Another option (perhaps) is to widen it, rebuilding Harrison platforms. As this whole project is massive anyway, the rebuilding of Harrison station (and offering ADA access to it) would not add much, proportiuonately, to the cost.
So they are going to cut the original wires or poles they have where there are TWO tracks (including the Hackensack R. Bridge)?
If you ride the segment between NYP and Newark, you'll notice on both sides that building four tracks where there are two is very hard to do.
THey need to let Amtrak and PATH share the tracks again, like it was in the old days. PATH is still an FRA railroad and there is no reason why we can't go back to the old PRR method.
Also, the new Secaucas connection provides for 4 tracks on the Meadows raceway and with the new hi-speed turnouts this should increase capcity.
"They'd also have to build another bridge adjacent to Portal to get 4 tracks from NYP to Newark. "
Correct - that's part of the estimated cost for the new tunnel.
Actually, it is a big deal. Having a full-time express track in each direction is a big plus.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it four tracks from Arsenal (outside University City in Philly) to Bell (somewhere between Claymont and Wilmington), then two tracks into Wilmington, with a third added at the station, then once again four tracks between Wilmington and Newark? (I know there are some three track spots in Maryland, particularly along the MARC territory, where a fourth would be much needed. The railroad bridge across the Susquehanna River between Perryville and Aberdeen is two tracks wide, but the land-based ROW on either side is three tracks. They also use three between Baltimore and DC.)
Underlying all of this, of course, is the need to squeeze all those trains through one inbound track.
AMTRAK of course knows about this so it should be fine. I can't wait to see the added trains. Anybody know which design of the bi-level car was chosen for manufacturing?
What is the status of NJ's proposal to put under rail tunnel under the Hudson connecting to Penn Station?
I don't understand what you're saying. Could you please restate your question?
"What is the status of NJ's proposal to put under rail tunnel under the Hudson connecting to Penn Station?"
There have been lots of reports lately about NJT's serious budget problems due to their ambitious schedule of projects such as Midtown Direct and the Secaucus Transfer.
I suspect all NJT management attention is directed toward making sure there's no major backsliding on what they have achieved, and on incremental expansion of service to NYC, so that people don't have to stand from Newark to Penn and they can maybe (let's hope) even open up Secaucus before the PATH WTC station is rebuilt.
It doesn't sound like a politic time to ask for big money to be spent on even the early stages of what would be a huge project by NJ standards.
Excellent analysis. Yes, you're right. The agency needs to deliver on its promises very concretely. Jeffrey Warsh has a big job ahead of him.
I had heard, however, that NJ's Congressional delegation had sought funds for a new tunnel.
I didn't realize that Secacaus Transfer is so badly behind schedule.
You ARE kidding about Jeff Warsh, right?
Should I be?
Jeffrey Warsh is no longer running NJ Transit. He was dismissed several months ago. George Warrington, late of Amtrak, is now in charge of NJ Transit.
David
Missed the boat on that one, didn't I?
You're right.
Why is George Warrington better than Jeffrey Warsh? (I'm not being sarcastic)
Who said Warrington is better than Warsh?
Anyway, Warrington is better than Warsh. ;) I don't about Warrington as a *person*, but he has many years of railroad management experience both with Amtrak and NJ Transit once before. Warsh had *ZERO* transit experience, he was just more or less a "figure head". BTW, Warsh is a very nice guy, he used to ride my Raritan Valley trains quite often, and even though I am a "front line" employee, he treated me like a human being.
Warsh admitted in a newspaper article than he is a "foamer" (eg Railfan).
That is true. He used to speak with my conductor quite often about model trains. One day, when my conductor took a day off, Warsh asked me, "Where's Bob? At home playing with his Redbirds?"
"I didn't realize that Secaucus Transfer is so badly behind schedule."
It isn't behind the schedule that was in effect maybe a year or two ago. The catch is that trains from Newark to Penn are currently so crowded (standing room all taken) with people who can't take the PATH to WTC that there is no room to add on more people at Secaucus. Maybe the incremental capacity additions they are working on will allow Secaucus to open on schedule at the end of this year.
It's OK if the Secaucus folks have to stand for 8 minures, as long as there is a place for them to stand.
In September, I'd love to see how they are going to squeeze the two additional NEC/NJC trains in addition to the Montclair trains through one tunnel.............
With a really big shoehorn. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hey, that graphic got me thinking... that'd be a great way to number new lines after we run out of letters...
I, II, III, IV, V (damn!), VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII...
Yeah, but can you picture some New Yorkers asking about trains...."Yes where do I get the II (eye-eye) train?", and "Can you transfer here for the VII (vee-eye-eye) train here?"
Sounds like baby talk.
Just bring back the old Single letter = Exp/Double letter = Local Scheme
Just bring back the old Single letter = Exp/Double letter = Local Scheme
I'd be for abandoning single letters and having all double letters. Then there'd be 676 possible combinations! Okay, some would be unusable, like the PP Train, but it'd give a lot of room for expansion!
Actually....
I like an Alpha Numeric scheme....
2A 2B 2C 2D 2G 2H On the Secnond Avenue
4A 4B 4C 4G on the Lexington
5A 5B 5C 5G on the Fifth Avenue (I went ahead and built it while you were not looking... that's why we need so many extra train designations.
6A 6B 6C 6D 6G 6H (Are you picking up a pattern here.... xA would be the primary express route for that line (ie runs at all times) xB xC xD would be additional express routes, 6G 6H would be Locals...)
7A 7B 7G on Seventh Avenue....
Or do it the other way around, because we do have more than 10 trunk lines....
so make it
A1 A2 A3 A4 A8 A9 for Eighth Avenue
B1 B2 B3 B8 B9 for the Broadway - Seventh Avenue Line
C1 C2 C3 C4 C8 C9 for the Sixth Avenue Line
D1 D2 D3 D4 D7 D8 for the Fifth Avenue Line
E1 E2 E3 E4 E7 E8 fpr the Lexington Abenue Line
F1 F2 F3 F4 F7 F8 for the Second Avenue Line
G1 of the Brooklyn Queens Crosstown (Just like God intended it to be)
H1 H2 H7 H8 for the Nassau Street Line
L1 for the 14th Street Subway
M1 M2 M3 M4 M7 M8 for the Metropolitan/Ningth Avenue Subway
N1 N2 N3 N4 for the 23rd Street Subway
Q1 Q2 Q3 for the 42nd Street Subway
And I'll rest here before I get Carried away....
of before they carry *me* away.... : )
Elias
Actually....
I like an Alpha Numeric scheme....
Why not make the letters less arbitrary whilst you have the opportunity?
B - Broadway (BMT)
C - 14th St (C for Canarsie)
D - 23rd St (D for being a conveniently near letter to C)
E - Eighth
F - Fifth (one for you Elias!)
G - Greenpoint (yes, that is pushing it a bit!)
L - Lexington
M - Metropolitan-Ninth (is this another of your fantasies Elias?)
N - Nassau
Q - Flushing (no reason, but Q's a nice letter)
S - Sixth
T - Second (T for two)
V - SeVenth (IRT) (Why do half the ordinals have to begin with S?)
Personally I have a load of fantasies half typed into the computer with things like YY and MZ Trains, but that's another matter...
As much sense as those ideas make, you wouldn't want to change the L to C, for instance...can you imagine the insanity that would follow such a radical change?
I much prefer the older (late 60's) double letter combos...
QB, QT, RJ, NX, etc.
Jesus...
we have WAY too much time on our hands, don't we? :)
As much sense as those ideas make, you wouldn't want to change the L to C, for instance...can you imagine the insanity that would follow such a radical change?
Oh utterly - just Elias (as ever) had got me thinking there. My current expansion plan calls for two 14th St services - an LK train and an LL train.
I much prefer the older (late 60's) double letter combos...
QB, QT, RJ, NX, etc.
Don't we all? Pity the NX wasn't much use.
we have WAY too much time on our hands, don't we? :)
Yeah, but it's summer, so hey! Get out your deckchairs and relax... the next stop is Coney Island!
Let's go for twenty first century PC : Cyrillic IDs. CI Peter
We don't need that. CT Transit in stamford does this and it is Hell. What is better, "When is the next E to Merrit Pky?" or "When is the next 32D?
"When is the next 32D?
Check the AOL profiles - lots of them there - although I prefer a 44DD ;-)
Don't use AOL. Never have, never will. I don't need my internet sorted and served on a silver plater. Also $21.95 is kindda expensive.
In case you haven't noticed, ISPs all cost $21.95 now. AOL costs $23.90.
I use MSN and it cost about $14.00 a month for unlimited. The catch is you have to pay a year in advance. It seemed worth it because MSN's regular price is $21.95.
Get a local one. Your tech support isn't in Denver, unlike me who has SNET DSL (I'am getting a friggin cable modem from cable-vision).
I don't care where the tech support is located since I never need to use it.
I have a cable modem. Good choice switching from DSL to cable.
2 out 7 days e-mail is down. Ping to google.com is 247ms. DSL service dies once a month for a day and a half randomly.
We pay about $96.00 a month for DSL service from our local telephone cooperative, but this includes a telephone line that would habe cost us $25.00, it also includes a $10.00 / month fee for a static IP number so that we can host our own MX server. I am presently hosting about 60 email addresss on it. So I am also saving on email addresses.
I have 15 computers connected to the internet via this one account and suffer no problems or delays for doing so. It almost worked with a 56Kbps modem, but it was far too unreliable in keeping a connection up.
The reason why our base rate is so high is that we live out in the middle of nowhere, but what do you know, our pohne cooperative *does* have a switch in our town, and it is only a few blocks away from us... But... so far they only have 15 DSL accounts in town, and so the cost of the service needs to be spread over a much smaller service base. The cable company has no plans to offer internet out here, and there certainly are no other firms attempting this sort of business.
On the other hand, if I send an email to the phone company, I get a response the same day, or I can go into the office and talk to the boss internet person any time I want. Try *that* in your big apple!
: ) Elias
The advantage of a large city to a small town is anonymity. I would not want everybody to know my name.
Ouch! I'am paying 69.99 for 1.5down/128up (bussiness) with 1 static ip, others dynamic (multiple ppp logins over pppoe). The ISP is officially SNET/SBC but since my newsgroup server and mail servers are at prodigy i don't think so.
Ouch! I'am paying 69.99 for 1.5down/128up (bussiness) with 1 static ip, others dynamic (multiple ppp logins over pppoe). The ISP is officially SNET/SBC but since my newsgroup server and mail servers are at prodigy (they switch the server adresses a year ago) I don't think so.
"Just bring back the old Single letter = Exp/Double letter = Local Scheme "
B>AMEN!, Just like the good Lord had intended it to be!
Great. Then the whole system will turn into a freaking term paper outline. All we need are lower-case lettered lines.
Great. Then the whole system will turn into a freaking term paper outline. All we need are lower-case lettered lines.
Don't forget Greek letters... uppercase Delta, Theta, Lambda, Xi, Pi, Sigma, Psi, and Omega are obviously different from any Roman letter. Even more lowercase letters are distinct!
How about ACSI "bell" (echo ctrl-G) charchter?
Roman numerals would give the subway system that extra bit of class that it has always lacked. The MTA would have to switch to Times Roman though-- Helvetica just wouldn't cut it any more.
On the other hand, I think we'd have a problem when announcements were made about delays. The MTA would be tempted to start making those announcements in Roman numerals just to obscure the length of the delay.
"Your attention, please! Trains on the XII line are running VI minutes late as a result of a IV-train accident at Broadway Junction. Passengers wishing to arrive at their destinations before MMIII should transfer to the XIV line..."
And they could resurrect the old "QVEENSBORO PLAZA" signs ;-)
The Romans didn't "spell out" the numerals you dolt. They just said the number.
The Romans didn't "spell out" the numerals you dolt. They just said the number.
That'd be fun... announcements in Latin. So few people listen to them they might as well be.
hoc Train N nunc in via LVII terminat. mutate vos omnes! mutate vos omnes!
Hard to see. Plus the ghetto/redneck people will create BIEs in protest.
They already added Five train service to Queens Blvd and its damn confusing having two tains named the same in different divisions. I ask people how to get to the five train connection and they ask me "which one". Its confusing even for me who has some subway knowledge. Imagine the plight og the poor tourists wanting to get to Queens and ending up in the Bronx. I think they should leave well enough alone and go back to the old system.
Heh. The "which one" situation must've been good that weekend when there were two Q Trains - one on the West End (or was it the Sea Beach?) and one on the Brighton Local!
There were a number of weekends when there were Q trains on the Brighton and on the West End.
There was one weekend when there were Q trains on the Brighton, the West End, and the Sea Beach, and no W or N service (except in Queens).
But Roman Numerals represent numbers? So if a train is II, you're actually saying "where is the 2 train?".
Hmm... I wonder whatever happened to their talk of a branch off the Raritan Valley Line to go to West Trenton.
What track would that use? The RVL is up north, quite a distance from West Trenton.
It would diverge from Bound Brook and use existing freight trackage.
Service ran through West Trenton until the early 80s. If I remember posts here correctly, either SEPTA used to run continuing service from West Trenton along this route all the way into Newark with RDCs, or NJTransit ran service to Philly's Reading Terminal via West Trenton.
For a complete list of all the NJT proposals for the future, go here.
What are RDC's?
Rail
Diesel
Car
built by Budd starting in 1949 and throughout the 1950s. Each car was self-contained -- no locomotive needed.
David
Also known as Budd Cars or Budd RDC's.
Budd RDC's at Cape May
Budd's Rail-diesel cars. A diesel MU.
You could run one and two car trains on diesel lines, without an engine, which means that you save lots of $$$ on running branch lines that don't see enough passengers to warrant a full-length train. Almost every railroad had them until the 1980s. I'm guessing SEPTA closed all their non-electrified lines once the last ones were retired.
Budd tried to make a sequel, the SPV (self-propelled vehicle), but they weren't reliable. Metro North bought a bunch to replace their RDCs, but now they sit awaiting scrappage north of Croton-Harmon.
Was an RDC employed on SEPTA's Fox Chase-Newtown line? That line was still running when I was in Philly in the very early 1990's.
Gunn tracking down solutions; Amtrak chief 'amazingly blunt'
By Barbara De Lollis
USA TODAY
Fri. 6/28/02
Page 3B
David Gunn turned down the job of running Amtrak in 1993 because he didn't think the company was in enough trouble to capture the attention of Washington.
But Gunn, who has run four big-city or regional transit systems, changed his mind in May after Amtrak's president resigned. When Amtrak's board again offered Gunn the job, he decided to come out of retirement on Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia, to save the troubled passenger rail system.
''I took the job this time because I really thought Amtrak was in enough trouble that the political masters might actually deal with the problems,'' says Gunn, 65. ''It was in desperate trouble. That's when things tend to get solved in Washington.''
Continues at ...
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20020628/4234014s.htm
-----
About David Gunn ...
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20020628/4234015s.htm
Actually, David Gunn did a great job when he was involved with the New York City Subway. Maybe he can clean up Amtrak's mess also.
Read Don Phillip's piece in August 2002 Trains. Like it or not, he is better than anybody in the business (plus he knows the difference between an R44 vs R46.)
With all this discussion, it's time to do some numbers.
You could probably extend the G train to Continental M-F 6AM - 9PM, by putting a T/O or switchman in the rear of every local train as it arrives at Continental, then going into the relay track, and reversing without the T/O having to walk the length of the train while it's in the relay. That way, the time in the relay is short and there's no safety worries for the crew, and NYCT would have less reason to worry about the public being there. That could allow 24 tph into Continental.
What does this cost: 25 new employees
- 10 crews of 2 to cover 15 hours per day of extended G service (45 min round trip from Court Sq to Continental, one train every 10 mins).
- Maybe 4 people to double up coverage of all trains at Continental, in rush hours only, plus one more in the tower to make sure all relays went right.
What's the benefit: not too much.
- Everybody agrees the real crowds on the G are going from Greenpoint to Manhattan. I haven't seen any numbers but the Queens to Brooklyn traffic sounds like it's at most 1 full car worth of people per train.
- So probably 10,000 people per day save 5 minutes, or 50,000 minutes of saved time per day.
Meanwhile the TA has to add 25 people, which is 12,000 minutes of payroll time per day.
Not a good cost/benefit ratio at all.
AIM,
You're missing the point. You need to look at some of the archives.
Though I agree with what you said, even if it were cost effective, your idea would still be dead in the water.
The fact is, the TA has already shown that the bottleneck is at Queens Plaza. The additional tunnel capacity to Manhattan cannot be utilized as intended when the crosstown services claims a share of the space.
Queens Blvd. services are still crowded enough so that ALL additional capacity created by efficiency adjustments need to be fed into the F, the E, the R and the V.
G riders are best served now by increasing the frequency of G trains to Court Square and making Court Square more friendly to passengers, both of which MTA is in the process of doing. A G to Continental is counterproductive, period.
"The fact is, the TA has already shown that the bottleneck is at Queens Plaza. The additional tunnel capacity to Manhattan cannot be utilized as intended when the crosstown services claims a share of the space."
Most of the discussion of the QB locals has been to the effect that you can't turn 24 tph at Continental. Why is QP a bottleneck?
In the evening rush, why can't you fit 9 Rs, 9 Vs and 6 Gs into the local track immediately north of Queens Plaza? Are you saying that Vs waiting for a slot on that track would delay Es behind them? Es plus Vs are only 24 or 25 tph, not 30.
"Most of the discussion of the QB locals has been to the effect that you can't turn 24 tph at Continental. Why is QP a bottleneck?"
Again, the archives contain discussions of the problems involving traffic control at the Manhatan-bound tunnels.
It's not just a matter of turning trains at Continental. It's also safety. Recall that the signalling system has shown some limitations. It's a marvelous, elegant system that was designed for subway cars lighter than the R44-46 generation and as a result, there have been some collisions. Until CBTC or other new system takes over system-wide, we're left with that limitation.
Again, G through service is not needed to provide transportation within the system. The Court Square transfer is adequate. Any spare capacity in the QB corridor, including QP, needs to be devoted to Manhattan-bound trips, esp. at the busiest times.
If and when a new lower level at QP is built, or when new rail service into Manhattan occurs (perhaps the new LIRR 63rd Street line, when open, will draw off passengers, and perhaps a new diversion of 63rd Street will be built one day), the G train can be extended to Continental again.
It's also safety. Recall that the signalling system has shown some limitations. It's a marvelous, elegant system that was designed for subway cars lighter than the R44-46 generation and as a result, there have been some collisions.
The signal system design was based on the laws of kinematics, which have not changed with the introduction of the R44-46's. The most notable collisions on the Queens Blvd line did not involve 75 foot cars.
Until CBTC or other new system takes over system-wide, we're left with that limitation.
One management technique is to claim that improved performance requires some expensive, new technology. It deflects critical examination of current management.
Any spare capacity in the QB corridor, including QP, needs to be devoted to Manhattan-bound trips, esp. at the busiest times.
They did provide more Manhattan bound rush hour trips 45 years ago and still provided crosstown service.
If and when a new lower level at QP is built,
Extending the G to Queens Plaza and turning it there is possible in rush hour without building a lower level or crossing the express tracks. It requires more operational skill than the TA's managers are able or willing to provide. So, they have proposed another expensive non-solution.
Of course, the ONLY solution which is guaranteed to work is to appoint Stephen Baumann the MTA Chairman.
Right, Steve?
Of course, the ONLY solution which is guaranteed to work is to appoint Stephen Baumann the MTA Chairman.
Actually, my opinion of NYCT operations is shared by the MTA chairman I met.
Who was that Chairman? Bill Ronan? He's long dead, and the current "fixes" (loads of timers, wheel detectors, neutered car performance, most of the rule changes that result in slow operation) took place long after anything he thought about the way NYC Transit runs things was relevant. The only MTA Chairman whose thoughts about the way the NYC subway system runs are relevant at the moment is Peter Kalikow.
David
Who was that Chairman? Bill Ronan?
It was not Bill Ronan.
The only MTA Chairman whose thoughts about the way the NYC subway system runs are relevant at the moment is Peter Kalikow.
I agree. The conversation that I referred to took place a long time ago with the then incumbent MTA chairman.
Let me put the remarks in context. I was part of a citizen action group that wanted the MTA to expand a particular aspect of their service on a system wide basis. One of the citizen group's operatives did the political circuit and secured an early morning meeting with the MTA chairman.
The MTA chairman said that he favored the proposed expansion but that approval would have to come from the operating agencies individually. He noted that the managements were separate entities and that even getting one agency to agree to the change would not necessarily result in getting the expansion in the others. He said that big difference in the different operating agencies' abilities. He then suggested an order that we should try, starting with what he considered to be the best shot. NYCT came last. In fact he suggested that NYCT not even be contacted until approval from the other agencies had been secured.
I don't see the relevance of this story to where this thread was headed, which was yet another back-and-forth on why NYCT's subway service is so slow. It seems to me that any aspect of service that would have to be increased by ALL MTA agencies (with the possible exception of Bridges & Tunnels) would be along the lines of a customer service-related aspect (such as travel information center hours), not an operational aspect. Am I wrong?
"Abilities" can refer to a great many things. Were those "abilities" operational? Did they have to do with getting things done politically? Did they have to do with back-office operations? Additionally, the MTA at the time whoever Mr. Bauman talked to was in charge is not the MTA of today (unless it was Mr. Kalikow's predecessor E. Virgil Conway, which, given Mr. Bauman's proclivity for talking about the long-distance past as if it had just happened, doesn't seem likely). It's pretty much run by the "three men in a room" in Albany. If the Governor wants something done, it gets done...but that's not relevant to this discussion either, and it's the kind of thing that goes off-topic quickly, so I'll leave it at that.
David
I am surprised it was not a BRT Chairman
Well I'll take a venture. I didn't read the archives on this. I don't believe there is a safety issue involved as to the number of trains that are on a track. That's not to say that there are possibly a few areas where if a train hits a signal that it might hit something even with the trains governor slowed down. Once they pass the capacity number for a track, the trains will back up quickly. When a train breaks down they all get bunched up if they don't have anywhere to go. I don't thick there will be a problem at Queens Plaza. If the F goes back normal, it will be like before. The V through 63 with switching at 36 St. on the locals shouldn't be too bad. I never liked the switching done at the plaza for the V now. As far as the signals again, in that area they were all redone with the computer system. If any part of the system can handle traffic, that is the spot. It is still slow at times with all the switching involved. When the computer goes down, watch out. Continental is the big problem. 3 services in the evening and it is almost always backed up. I would love to see the G return. Court Square looks like Times Square and that's not just the rush hour. All crowded in the 4 cars but most people don't have too far to go.
The TA tried to run the services together, and failed. I don't know if the computer system contributed to the failure, but it happened.
Even if it had succeeded, since demand for service has grown, the relative customer demand in the area, all by itself, justifies removing the G from the corridor to use all available train slots to go to Manhattan.
Stopping the current service plan to resume full-length G service is inappropriate because of technical difficulties, and because customer demand in the Queens Blvd corridor going to Manhattan is so great. G customers are adequately served today; the 4-car G train will be improved when additional rolling stock shows up.
I agree. The G can't come to the Blvd. as it is now. I don't think they should come up on the evenings until say 11 pm. That was all political if I remember or else it would be at CSQ 24/7.
I had envisioned the G coming up to Roosevelt during the am and pm's. The TA should build from the bellmouth off of 2 track and the abandoned upper level north of Roosevelt and continue it for about 2000-2500 feet. Just build two spur tracks. Room for the two tracks to meet at grade, bumping blocks, diamond crossover and room for 2 full length trains on each track. There wouldn't be too much interruption to service and hopefully not too much oppostion (NIMBY's) to the plan. The upper level crosses the mainline. The work area is not that large. Would be great for turning all trains in an emergency. This would alleviate the situation at Continental while bringing the G past CSQ. Arriving G crews would make the relay and make the crew change on the south. Would definitely need platform C/R's at Roosevelt. If there is a delay on the R or V, the G could go to Continental. It might be better if the F and V swap tubes. Less delays at QP. The G would return to Continental on the midnight.
It is possible to reverse G service in Queens Plaza at the current rush hour service levels. It requires operational skills that the TA is unwilling to demonstrate.
The Queens Blvd line already has the capability for turning 40 tph at Forest Hills, 80 tph at 179th St and 20 tph at Jamaica Center. Jamaica Center would have had the capability for 40 tph were it not for the MTA's inept design. More faciliities are not required.
That really is a whole lot of switching. Scares the crap out of me. I remember when it turned about 10 years ago at QP for only about an hour or two (8-10 pm?) in the evenings. That seemed to go ok but it wasn't the rush hours. I never really understood why the schedule called for the G to be turned there at that time. There were a lot less people on it back then too.
What kind of operational skills were you talking about?
I was not thinking of turning the G on the center track north of Queens Plaza. That would require affect all the existing tracks at QP.
Interesting idea.
G customers are adequately served today; the 4-car G train will be improved when additional rolling stock shows up.
Wouldn't they be better served by running 10-12tph with 2-Car Trains rather than 5-6tph with 4-Car trains? One of the reasons why the G is unpopular is that you spend so long waiting for it, it'd be quicker going via Manhattan.
The G is "unpopular" because it:
a. goes through industrial neighborhoods without much industry
b. goes through residential neighborhoods that don't have gigantic apartment complexes
c. doesn't serve Manhattan
The line might indeed attract more riders if service ran more frequently with shorter trains. However:
a. there aren't that many two-car sets of 75' cars running around
b. NYCT won't run two-car trains of 60-footers because there's only one compressor (and it's probably not economically viable -- even if there's room under the cars, which I doubt -- to put a compressor on every car)
c. the 60-footers aren't set up for OPTO (one-person train operation)
d. it's unlikely that running two-car trains -- even with a doubling of service -- would fly politically.
David
That's a very interesting idea.
Thank you. I hadn't thought of that. However, you may have a serious problem at rush hour with this.
I hope the R-143's (intended for rolling stock expansion) keep coming in. The more the TA get, the more R-42's, R-40's, R44's and '46s R38's etc. can be released for service elsewhere in the system - and G trains can be beefed up.
However, you may have a serious problem at rush hour with this.
I don't get where the problem would be. Explain.
Large crowd of people and only two cars? What's to explain? The increased frequency wouldn't make up for that. You'd still need longer trains.
Within 2-3 years MTA will have relief ready in the form of larger numbers of new arriving cars. That will solve the problem.
Large crowd of people and only two cars?
With only a 5 minute wait for that crowd to develop. Half as many trains, but twice as long, 10 minute wait, double the crowd.
Within 2-3 years MTA will have relief ready in the form of larger numbers of new arriving cars. That will solve the problem.
The extra cars should take the form of more trains, not longer ones. No-one likes waiting for ten minutes for a Subway Train in the rush hour!
When MTA has enough train cars to run 6 car trains evcery 5 minutes on the G, will you be satisfied?
When MTA has enough train cars to run 6 car trains evcery 5 minutes on the G, will you be satisfied?
4 Cars would be plenty. It isn't exactly the busiest line. Just the headways are a bit of a joke.
Fair enough.
Have you noticed that the C, the Lefferts and Rockaway A's as individual lines, the M, the N, and the W all run at 6-7 tph?
These are sufficient frequencies to handle the people. It would be great if every line ran at 12 tph, but I don't want my fare to go up just to pay for that. I'd like my money to be used where it actually serves people.
These are sufficient frequencies to handle the people.
How do you know, if you don't look at the load levels for these trains as well?
"How do you know, if you don't look at the load levels for these trains as well?"
Because these aren't ever routes that come up on the lists of most crowded trains, except perhaps the A.
Do you have a list of the load levels on each line? Measured where?
Do you have a list of the load levels on each line? Measured where?
The Straphanger's Report Card provides sufficient information for this on a line by line basis. The statistic they use is probability of getting a seat. However, one can work backwards.
For example the metric for the 1/9 is 29%. They use R62's which have 44 seats and a service load of 110. Therefore the load level for the 1/9 is (44/110)/.29 = 1.38.
The last report was in July 2001. I guess they will have a new one soon.
I don't follow. (Maybe that's because I don't know how 'load level' is defined.)
And, again, where is this measured?
The service load level for IRT cars is 110 people, the service load level for 60' BMT-IND cars is 145 and the 75 footers have a service load level of 175. This is based on giving each passenger a certain amount of area within the car. The area occupied is approximately the same for seated and standing passengers. The probability of finding a seat is the # of seats in the car divided by the number of passengers in the car. Given the number of seats in the car, one can then find the total number of passengers in the car and by extension find the ratio of the number of passengers in the car to the service load level.
The measurements done by the Straphangers' Campaign are described in the appendex of their report. The following is the description for the chance of getting a seat.
D. Chance of getting a seat
We developed a formula to calculate the chance of being able to get a seat at the most crowded point on each line. First, we identified each line’s "instance of greatest crowding" using New York City Transit’s 2000 Weekday Cordon Count. We did this by isolating the most crowded 15-minute interval for each line, at the most crowded point of the route listed. Then we divided the number of seats on cars in a line by the number of passengers at that 15-minute interval. For example, the 2 line was at its most crowded point at 72nd Street in Manhattan, heading downtown between 5:30 and 5:45 p.m. on the day the count was taken; the average number of passengers counted was 144.0 per car. Cars on the 2 line are of the class R-33 G.E., a 51-foot A division car with 40 seats. Thus the ratio of the number of seats to the total number of passengers per car would be 40/144, or 28%. This figure, 28%, represents the chance that a rider will be able to get a seat on a train at the 2 line’s most crowded point, during the most crowded 15-minute weekday rush hour interval. (Source: New York City Transit Rapid Transit Loading Guidelines, November 5, 2000; and "Year 2000 Subway—By Route Analyzed by 15 Minute Intervals," Supplement to Year 2000 Weekday Cordon Count, June 2001. In cases where more than one car class was used on a line, we evaluated crowding based on the seating guidelines for the predominant type of car used on the line.)
Most IND stations have entrances at both ends. It's bad enough having to run up to 150' for a 300' train.
That would be nice but the R143 order is only for 212 cars, enough to make up 26 1/2 trainsets.
wayne
Recall that the signalling
system has shown some limitations. It's a marvelous, elegant system that was designed for
subway cars lighter than the R44-46 generation and as a result, there have been some collisions.
Until CBTC or other new system takes over system-wide, we're left with that limitation
That's the freakin "tooth fairy" approach: "the signal system
is broken, only this miraculous new technology will save us,
within the next 30 years".
The collisions were the result of one thing: car equipment f*****d
with the brakes. Read the 1995 NTSB report. So, now, instead
of fixing the problem (improve emergency braking performance)
we go completely overboard w/ slowed-down trainsets and signal
systems that don't let you do anything. The result: schedule
speed that rivals buses.
Look at Queens Plaza. With the service plan in effect, Es are
constantly getting plugged by V's crossing, with 4 hooligans
and a blind trip as the cherry on top! Timers _everywhere_.
The only track on which you can enter with any kind of authority
is D4. There was no problem with R & G merge on D2 before
the re-signaling.
2 blind trips. You shortchanged yourself 1 cherry. :-)
If that were true, why do other transit systems in the US utilize more advanced signalling than NYC does?
If that were true, why do other transit systems in the US utilize more advanced signalling than NYC does?
Turn that around: Why does NYCT now need to install a signal system
which is more advanced than any other transit system in the US?
The current position with respect to fleet performance is absurd:
We had to make the cars slower than anything that's run in the
subway in 100 years. We blame the "obsolete" signal system.
Instead of fixing the signal system now, with proven technology (such
as cab signals with positive speed enforcement), or fixing the
root cause of the problem by improving emergency braking
performance, we must wait 30 years for CBTC to be completed.
We don't even know if CBTC will work! The pilot project on
the 14 St/ Canarsie line is to see _how_ it will work, not _if_.
Failure is not one of the allowable outcomes of the study.
"Turn that around: Why does NYCT now need to install a signal system
which is more advanced than any other transit system in the US? "
You didn't read my question, did you? I'd be happy with NYC having signalling equal in capability to other city systems.
"Instead of fixing the signal system now, with proven technology (such as cab signals with positive speed enforcement),"
We don't have that now. So that would be an improvement.
"We don't even know if CBTC will work!"
Really? Why should it work elsewhere and not here?
"The pilot project on
the 14 St/ Canarsie line is to see _how_ it will work,"
OK. So let them try it. Nothing wrong with that.
"Failure is not one of the allowable outcomes of the study."
Now you're back to one of your original points: That you know better than all the idiots at MTA. I won't bother to answer that one.
The TA wastes too much money unnecessarily studying things. Take concrete ties. AMTRAK has been using them for years. So has LIRR. Yet the TA (another MTA agency as we all know) is experimenting with them (Brighton Line south of Sheepshead Bay) to see how well they hold up. What a crock! If they work on AMTRAK with 100 MPH hour trains, and LIRR with 70 MPH trains, I'm sure they would work in the subway with our 30 MPH trains!
Please we went over this already!
That may be true, but most people don't have the time to view everything that was ever posted, even if it was rescently. Everyones bound to miss stuff. It's impossible to see evrerything.
(Now you're back to one of your original points: That you know better than all the idiots at MTA. I won't bother to answer that one.)
Steve's point of view that the official point of view is always wrong is similar to yours that the official point of view is always right.
"Steve's point of view that the official point of view is always wrong is similar to yours that the official point of view is always right. "
I do not say the official point of view is always right. You don't reaqd my posts carefully. What Jeff does (and you do too, sometimes) is present grand conspiracies and utter incompetence on the part of MTA without offering a shred of evidence to support it. It's paranoia, amusing at times.
I like a lot of your posts, Larry, even the critical ones - but I've called you on it a few times when you've posted criticisms of MTA and city decisions which showed more your own unwillingness to deal with political realities than anything else.
("Your own unwillingness to deal with political realities than anything else.")
I fully admit that I have trouble dealing with the reality that, politically, some people are worth more than others. I understand that the bureaucrats at the MTA must deal with those realities, and provide "rationales" which are "rationalizations" for political decisions. All public officials are in the same boat. Doesn't mean I won't criticize it on Subtalk, however.
That's fair.
Really? Why should it work elsewhere and not here?
Could you name those elsewheres?
You may be confusing CBTC with other technologies, including
microprocessor-based vital systems. The TA has been stuck in
some kind of signal time warp and the only way out, it says, is
to leapfrog from being behind the curve to being out on the
bleeding edge.
In my opinion, a sensible signal improvement program would be
to use modern but traditional signal technology. This changes
the _how_ of signaling, but not the _what_. Vital interlocking
plants and automatic block signals using microprocessors have been
around for over a decade now and they work. The TA continues to
specify relay-based plants. Bergen St. is the "pilot project" for
vital interlocking, yet Concourse re-signaling will proceed
using relays.
CBTC changes the _what_ of signaling. It replaces boolean
networks with on-the-fly floating point calculations. There
is debate even within the signal community as to whether this
is safe. CBTC could turn out to be the wave of the future, in
which case the naysayers will be wrong (just as 100 years ago
people distrusted color-light signals replacing semaphores), or
it could turn out to be another Betamax. The TA's plan seems
to completely discount the latter outcome, which I feel is very
irresponsible, considering that the performance of the system
is being held hostage to the eventual success of CBTC.
In my not so humble opinion, the TA would be better off studying
and implementing a way to improve emergency braking rate
performance so the signal system can operate at the designed
margin and the trains can still move at the intended speed.
The 1995 WB accident, which is what triggered all of this,
was the result of many factors. However, the single biggest
cause was the poor emergency stopping distance of the R40 GOH
fleet. This was the direct result of a TA management decision
to weaken the emergency brake rate to reduce passenger complaints.
If you don't believe me, read the NTSB report.
Since then, that fiddling has been reversed. The trains now have
an emergency rate of 3.2, which is as good as the original spec.
Realistically, the fleet neutring could be un-done tomorrow.
You make some reasonable points here.
I agree with you that immediate mnovement to improve to a proven modern standard could help immediately.
A reasonable compromise is to improve the system as you suggest, but to allow one line (the L in this case) to test CBTC.
Could you name those elsewheres?
Hong Kong's subway, which I think was a retrofit. Also, don't the Paris Meteor line, London DLR, and SF Muni use CBTC?
SF Muni yes-- sadly not an example to cite as a success.
Well, for starters, don't open an extension to the system the same day you cut over to CBTC!
do you have any idea how long they were supposedly "testing" the system overnights? They suspended Sunday evening service for several YEARS putzing with this stuff and they still didn't get it right.
The depressing thing is that you would think in this century we could actually build something workable.
Another question:
MUNI operators don't get issued brake handles, obviously, but they all seem to have these long sticks to work the PA button while leaning way WAY WAAAYY back in the chair in ATO mode. Are those standard issue?
:-)
"Hong Kong's subway, which I think was a retrofit. Also, don't the Paris Meteor line, London DLR, and SF Muni use CBTC?"
The London Docklands system had *lots* of problems at first, but is now rated the most reliable rail system in London.
In my opinion the NYCT and London Underground systems are similar in that their managers think that *their* system is so exceptional that solutions that work in other (smaller) places cannot possibly work for them, so they have to design their own super Rolls-Royce systems. Which they then can't afford.
Fytton.
What method of train-to-wayside communication do these other systems use?
Hong Kong's subway, which I think was a retrofit. Also, don't the Paris Meteor line, London DLR, and SF Muni use CBTC?
What method of train-to-wayside communication do these other systems use?
Hong Kong - inductive loop
Paris Meteor - inductive loop
SF Muni - inductive loop
What method of train-to-wayside communication do these other systems use?
Hong Kong - inductive loop
Paris Meteor - inductive loop
SF Muni - inductive loop
Now wait a darn minute!
i was in Hong Kong once, and roode on the Koloon train,
and they passes a bamboo batton with some Chinese Writing on it as to who had authority to be on what track!
Ok, Alright, Already..... It *wasn't* a very recent trip!
: ) Elias
"The TA has been stuck in some kind of signal time warp and the only way out, it says, is to leapfrog from being behind the curve to being out on the bleeding edge."
Put a "C" in front of "TA" and you've described almost the exact situation of the Chicago L system in the 1960s. With the exception of block signaling in the "new" State and Dearborn subways, the only "signaling" on the L system was spacing boards, little signs on the left side of the track (the motorman sitting on the right side of the train) operating on the principle that if the motorman couldn't see the next one, he should slow down because he could be too close to the train ahead.
From that non-system, they went directly to a fairly state-of-the-art (at the time) solid-state cab signaling system sending signals through the rails and capable of stopping trains if they exceeded the speed limit or came too close to the train ahead. It seems to have worked well for them.
http://www.chicago-l.org/operations/signals/signals.html
The biggest problems cited were communication, fatigue and signal spacing.
Yes, I forgot to mention that. The NTSB felt that the motorman,
who was the only fatality, was probably asleep because of his
erratic work schedule. Perhaps you could comment on current TA
work practices and whether they adequately address fatigue.
As for signal spacing, had the train's emergency brakes produced
a deceleration rate of 3.2 MPHPS, the train would have stopped
in time after being tripped.
Actually no. The signalling was based on an acceleration curve of 1.7 or 1.9 (the R9's) not the R40 of 2.5. The signalling was based on an R9 reaching something like 27-29 mph. not the 36+mph that that train was doing, it was in a power position right until the end (not that that added anything but interesting for later).
It is true that the braking standards were all over the place and they pushed for more standardization afterwards. It was the 42's that had the really bad brakes the 40's were not up to the standard of a stop in 250 ft but were about 278(?). Point is the trains would have likely kissed anyway (eek, someone is going to pull out the physics texts, does the friction coefficient change for cars at various grades)just not as hard but that is still a failure. There is supposed to be some padding in those figures to account for things like bad weather and such. My guess is the other solution was to add the three timers near Marcy. The first one prevents you from exceeding 15 mph leaving the station and the other two prevent you from hitting 36-38 on the bridge. They sort of assume you are trying not to hit another train.
Really the M should have called Essex and held at Marcy for a few seconds or failing that the M should have called in the slow leader and the J should have held for a minute.
OK as for fatigue, that was on him. He had enough senority not to pick that, he could have gone AMs. That job likely was a straight 8 hour job with the advantage of not being a crowded train at those hours except for the last half. It is VERY easy to slip back into a daytime schedule on your weekends. There is a method to do it and slip back safely BUT a family problem or a jackhammer on your street can throw it out of whack totally. I work midnights and live underneath a Mr. Fix It.
Fatigue is a real problem with the extra, extra list for some T/Os. The new thing is to actually deny you the contractually required rest period. How can they do it? I will be etra extra for about another year at least, even if I win my grievance do you think they could not make my life a living hell for the next year. As a RX person you are supposed to get 12hrs rest now if you have a 14 hour day that started on the part of the system farthest from you home and ended the second farthest and your next job is far again those 12 hours end fast. For people on the PMs it can be worse but usually is not. I have had a week that started at 1pm on the board, then 5ish rd job, them 9pm job, then 5ish job then 1 pm board rpt. All but one of thses jobs involved a 1-2 hour commute. NYCT has a presentation where they show you how to adapt part of this is anchor sleep a 4 hour period where you sleep at the same time every day and the rest of your sleep works around it. Now I get my schedule on a day by day basis but even if I had the whole thing in advance I could not have made up a sleep schedule that worked around those hours. There actually is more I can say BUT that recent posting about a BIE in the tunnel with car numbers makes me very reluctant to post more here.
Actually no. The signalling was based on an acceleration curve of 1.7 or 1.9 (the R9's) not the R40 of 2.5. The signalling was based on an R9 reaching something like 27-29 mph. not the 36+mph that that train was doing, it was in a power position right until the end (not that that added anything but interesting for later).
Signal systems are designed to maintain a "safe" distance between trains. Train acceleration rates do not figure into the design. The "safe" distance is based on the stopping distance of the following train.
It is true that the braking standards were all over the place and they pushed for more standardization afterwards. It was the 42's that had the really bad brakes the 40's were not up to the standard of a stop in 250 ft but were about 278(?). Point is the trains would have likely kissed anyway (eek, someone is going to pull out the physics texts, does the friction coefficient change for cars at various grades)just not as hard but that is still a failure. There is supposed to be some padding in those figures to account for things like bad weather and such. My guess is the other solution was to add the three timers near Marcy. The first one prevents you from exceeding 15 mph leaving the station and the other two prevent you from hitting 36-38 on the bridge. They sort of assume you are trying not to hit another train.
The NTSB report shows the results of some braking tests at the accident site. The trains started at 34 mph the emergency brakes were hit at the trip site. The trains stopped in approximately 360 feet - approximately 70 feet beyond the collision feet. The emergency braking rate was 2.36 mph/s on an UPGRADE. If one assumes a 1% grade the net emergency braking effort supplied by the train was 2.14 mph/s. The emergency braking rate for the A/B standards was 3.0 mph/s as was the emergency braking rate for all subsequent equipment.
Suppose the emergency brakes were operating at 3.0 mph/s, what would have been the stopping distance assuming a velocity of 34 mph when the train went into emergency? The effective braking rate (including gravity) would have been 3.22 mph/s. The stopping time would at this deceleration rate from 34 mph would have been 10.56 seconds. The distance travelled would have been 263.87 feet or approximately 20 feet short of the point of collision.
The inexcapable conclusion is that the braking system been performing within its design specification the collision would have been avoided regardless of the situation's causes.
As this is likely to turn into why the NTSB is as poorly run as NYCT...
Signal distance was on the list probable causes not braking rates.
Signals were on the list of recommendations not braking rates.
The average speed in the recreations was 36.1 mph. With standard dev, the old braking rates overlap the range of the modified braking rate.
Pages 16-17 of the report are the basis of why I said what I did about the acceleration rate and signal insufficiency.
I have to admit there are places in that report where I had to
wonder if the author had ever seen the NYC subway system prior
to the investigation!
The reason for that accident was basically a system safety failure.
Motor performance, braking performance and signal distances were
all co-designed as a system, with a certain margin of safety.
(Incidentally, I beg to differ on the signals being designed for
R-9s. They would have been designed around ABs). Over the years
motor performance was allowed to increase while braking performance
was constant. A decision made during GOH to reduce the emergency
brake rate to reduce passenger complaints then pushed everything
beyond the envelope, with the resulting consequences.
That report had some weird stuff even in 1918 (was that the date) the standards were not all out.
18mph at the hit was a surprise, so was the different braking rates on wet Vs dry emergency Vs full service.
I thought it was good, you did not have to live in NYC or be industry to understand the report for the most part.
FACT BART has operated with one form or another of CBTC for thrty years (come Sept 12). Indeed there were glitches in the begining, and they are on generation 3 IIRC with some new stuff coming online soon.
Opinion, With all that they still have hever achieved the 90 second headways they claimed in their pre operation propaganda.--something CTA was reputed to do in the 50's in the tate St Subway.
The theory is that CBTC is easier (read cheaper) to install and maintain than hard wired wayside/cab signals with ATS or speed enforcement. If you don't want the TA to get more bang for the buck please only buy 1980's hard drives for your AT and keep using DOS 4.
The theory is that CBTC is easier (read cheaper) to install and maintain than hard wired wayside/cab signals with ATS or speed enforcement. If you don't want the TA to get more bang for the buck please only buy 1980's hard drives for your AT and keep using DOS 4.
The cheaper theory is predicated on the ability to use long range radio beacons for communications between trains and the central computer. Current CBTC systems use leaky transmission lines in tunnels. There is no question that such a ssytem should work above ground. However, the radio system proposed for the Canarsie Line has not been tested. Similar systems do not have the necessary range to provide economic benefit.
"However, the radio system proposed for the Canarsie Line has not been tested"
Yet. That's correct. It is about to be tested. We'll see shortly whether it actually works or not.
It is about to be tested. We'll see shortly whether it actually works or not.
And if the test for the proprietary radio beacons does not work in a manner that provides the expected cost savings, the TA will still go ahead with the complete CBTC installation as if the test were successful.
One interesting side light. There is an open architecture solution that is used outside the railroad industry. It would not provide the range to place the beacons or access points only within stations. However, the open architecture hardware access points are cheap commodities.
"And if the test for the proprietary radio beacons does not work in a manner that provides the expected cost savings, the TA will still go ahead with the complete CBTC installation as if the test were successful."
This is precisely why you and Jeff H. should form a new management committee and demand the removal of the current MTA board. This is the only we to save MTA from making horrible mistakes. After you are vindicated by the revelation that the new CBTC was really an evil government plot, you will be nominated for the next Presidential election by grateful citizens.
BART has never operated using CBTC. Their system is ASC using
coded track circuits ("cab signals"), just like WMATA.
My mother still uses a IBM XT and Leading Edge XT runing DOS 3.3 and a home brewed Word Processor (Leading Edges brand)
Get rid of all of those F***en timers at 63st and near woodhaven. The MTA would rather fill in the subways and run busses than take the risk of a accident.
The MTA should buy an off the shelf coded track circut system. The kind that is used by most of the transit systems in the US (PATCO, MTBA, WAMTA, MATRA, BART, SEPTA, NJT, etc). Its cheaper to install, cheaper to maintain and less suceptable to interfereance.
Yes, and coded track circuits have been around for 80 years so
they are proven. Your favorite company makes a neat little
single box solution that handles all of the coding and decoding.
Coded track circuits make for an easy transition to ASC. That
was basically the plan envisioned for 2 Ave in the early 1970s,
and the R44 and R46 orders came with cab signal equipment.
Nice to hear that we came so close .... yet so far.
Also were intended to be LIRR cars.
The R44 and R46 were not intended for LIRR service.
R44s were assigned to SIRTOA, where they still run.
Why do they have so many provisions to run on the LIRR?
Please name the provisions the R-44 and R-46 cars have to run on the LIRR. I can't name any.
David
Advanced signalling, 75 mph engines, longer cars, the doors on the cab ends aren't depressed. The look of a LIRR car on the outside.
They were indeed built to resemble the M-1s -- AESTHETICALLY. Other than that, they're pretty different and were NEVER, EVER, intended to run on commuter rail lines.
David
You mean besides third rail shoes and that they run on standard gauge?
The R44's that run on SIRTOA had to be modified for use.
I do not believe the R44 and R46 meet FRA standards (maybe SIRTOA has a waiver) - unlike the 85 foot M1s on LIRR which resemble them, vaguely, in appearance.
RonInBayside is telling you the truth. The R44 and 46 classes
were never designed or envisioned to run on the LIRR. They
were targeted for the 2 Ave Subway and came with ASC and ATO
equipment that would have been used on the new 2 Ave line only.
Since they were co-designed with the M1/M2 class of cars, there
are certain similarities, such as appearance, switchgroup and
brake packages (at least as-built).
I also believe that the LIRR's platform height above the rail is different than on the subway. MIND THE (vertical) GAP!
MIND THE (vertical) GAP!
A Vertigo Gap is called a *Step* < splat >
The appearance is the so-called "corporate look" which really began with the R40.
This is all good, but you've got to seriously consider these points.......
1). THESE ARE NOT TRAIN SYSTEMS THAT RUN 24 HOURS A DAY
2). THESE SYSTEMS DO NOT CARRY THE AMOUNT OF PASSENGER RIDERSHIP A DAY THAT NYCT DOES
That technology is proven effective on non-24 hour a day systems, but may not be able to fully accommodate the demands of a 24 hour a day 7 day a week system that never stops running and carries almost 3/4 of this city's population. We'll see when CBTC comes online here in NYCT, if it can handle 24/7/365 operations, with no shutdown periods for nightly maintenance and troubleshooting.
Actually, it is a 20/7/365 issue. Every CBTC system must have a standard block system as a backup to protect against the possibility of a non-CBTC equipped train going onto the track. The backup block system and track circuits for the Canarsie line is supposed to be able to handle a 15 minute headway. This should provide service during the midnight hours without degrading performance.
That is very true. But knowing the TA they cut costs by buying equipment that is not too terribly reliable, all in favor of less spending....more money saved. We'll see how this all plays out when the CBTC goes online (they already are installing CBTC equipment on the ROW on the Canarsie line).
But knowing the TA they cut costs by buying equipment that is not too terribly reliable, all in favor of less spending....more money saved.
That is certainly a plausible theory. Equally plausible is the one that I subscribe to: incompetence. :-)
What exactly is unreliable about the current signal system?
What the hell does 24/7 operation have to do w/ coded track circuts? Of course they work 24/7. Aside from Subways CSS is used by Amtrak, the LIRR, METRA, NJT, LIRR, CSX and NS, all 24/7. Its a proven system that is at least 80% as good as CTBT for about half the cost.
Cab signals, unproven? On what planet?
OK, in this entire discussion no one has really said in any kind of clear terms why it is a problem to run 24 local tph through Queens Plaza. Saying "the signaling is old" or "management can't handle it" is not an explanation of why something doesn't work there which works elsewhere.
Note also, I don't think it's worth the money to run those 24 tph. I'm just interested to know why it can't be done.
It's also no point telling me to look in the archives; I jut haven't managed to find the right key word to find that info.
Of course it's possible to run 24 TPH through Queens Plaza. There aren't enough cars to do it right now, though, and when there ARE enough cars to do it wouldn't it make more sense for more of those cars to go to Manhattan (V) then through Greenpoint (G)?
David
I'm not an expert but I believe that comes to 2.5 min. for every train. It COULD been done. But then again there is a lot of crossings involved. The R and the G merging before the Plaza and then the V just leaving the Plaza. That eats lot of time. People making connections takes up time. If some trains are late and then they all start coming together at once, that will back things up. Like someone else had said, the new signal system in the area, while safer, is also slower. That kills time. In addition, I understand that the wheel detector at the Plaza is broken so now trains that could come into the station before when the V was leaving the station now have to wait outside of the station until the V clears. I wonder what the tph for the local track is now during the rush? Perhaps it is just that they can't handle that many trains at CTL that they don't run more service. The lines are long and what affects a line in Brooklyn and Manhattan also affects the line in other places too. V shares tracks with the F and the R shares with the M, N and W. I may not have answered your question but that's what I can come up with. If they can swap the F and the V and eliminate the extra switching at the plaza then it is more realistic.
What was your example of something like this that works elsewhere?
The fact is, the TA has already shown that the bottleneck is at Queens Plaza.
The only bottlenecks at Queens Plaza are those that the TA's schedule makers and TA operations create.
The additional tunnel capacity to Manhattan cannot be utilized as intended when the crosstown services claims a share of the space.
The TA does not have enough rolling stock to operate all three services. If it had sufficient rolling stock, then the bottleneck would be the new work rules that limit turn arounds at Forest Hills to 15 tph instead of the 40+ tph that the double set of x-over switches permit.
At present there are 25 tph going through the 53rd St tunnel (down from 30 tph before the advent of the V and down from 34 tph from 45 years ago). There are 30 tph going through the 60th St tunnel of which only 10 tph are the R. There are only 15 tph through the 63rd St tunnel which has a capacity of at least 30 tph. Assuming the TA's nominal 30 tph capacity this means that the three tunnels combined have a capacity of 90 tph and they are operating only 70 for a 77% utilization factor.
The crosstown service will not prevent utilizing all the capacity into Manhattan, until such time as the TA is actually running 30 tph into Manhattan on both the Queens Blvd express and local tracks. At that time they will still be utilizing only 88% of the East River tunnel capacity.
Stephen,
You are correct in that rolling stock shortages contribute to this situation. As the R143 cars continue arriving, one hopes that will be relieved.
As to the rest, it's back to your usual statistical hogwash. We've been through this before. 1957 work rules, capacities etc. have been overtaken by 1980's-90's equipment, and headways between trains, or their speed, needed adjustment to fit the older fixed-block signalling system, which was designed for cars which could brake to a stop in shorter distances. There are other factors as well, but the bottom line is, until signalling and other systems are brought up to snuff (and they are), you by necessity are not dealing realistically with the problem.
Your math is great. Misapplied, your train just tumbled off the El.
We've been through this before. 1957 work rules, capacities etc. have been overtaken by 1980's-90's equipment, and headways between trains, or their speed, needed adjustment to fit the older fixed-block signalling system, which was designed for cars which could brake to a stop in shorter distances.
The problem of poorly functioning emergency brakes was addressed by reducing operating speed. This has two effects: increased travel time and the requirement for more equipment for the same service level. It does not effect track capacity.
Reduced operating speed does affect track capacity, though the effect may well be negligible.
Imagine an infinitely long train of 75' cars. At 50 mph, 3520 cars can pass a given point in an hour. At 40 mph, 2816 cars can pass a given point in an hour. At 30 mph, 2112 cars can pass a given point in an hour. So a reduction in operating speed theoretically would reduce track capacity, but realistically would not.
The most obvious reason for it not affecting track capacity is the time taken stopped in a station is the same, regardless of operating speed. Unless operating speed were reduced to a very low level, a station stop would be a greater limiting factor than operating speed.
Imagine an infinitely long train of 75' cars. At 50 mph, 3520 cars can pass a given point in an hour. At 40 mph, 2816 cars can pass a given point in an hour. At 30 mph, 2112 cars can pass a given point in an hour. So a reduction in operating speed theoretically would reduce track capacity, but realistically would not.
Track capacity for an infinitely long train is 0 tph, regardless of operating speed.
The most obvious reason for it not affecting track capacity is the time taken stopped in a station is the same, regardless of operating speed. Unless operating speed were reduced to a very low level, a station stop would be a greater limiting factor than operating speed.
Clearly, one should evaluate track capacity using stations for a system that averages one station for every 1/2 mile.
It's a fairly simple evaluate, conceptually. Assume a train is in a station.
Let TD be the time that is required for a train to move from a standing start to a position so that it is completely out of the station. N.B. this increased for longer trains.
Assume that a following train arrives at the approaching end of the station as soon as the leading train has reached this position.
Let TA be the time that is required for a train to come to a complete stop within the station from its position at the approaching end of the station.
Let TW be the dwell/waiting time the train spends within the station with its doors open.
The following train departs and the cycle starts again. Therefore the minimum headway time is given by:
TH = TD + TA + TW
If one took measurements, one would find that each of these components has a nominal value of 30 seconds for a minimum headway of 90 seconds or 40 tph operation.
Alternatively, one could also use the operating characteristics of the trains and come up with the same number.
But New Yorkers are unruly and dwell time usually exceeds 30 seconds in a crowded station. And pushers to shove people into the cars and then block others once the doors start closing are very expensive.
So is there really any hope for 40 tph?
But New Yorkers are unruly and dwell time usually exceeds 30 seconds in a crowded station. And pushers to shove people into the cars and then block others once the doors start closing are very expensive.
I've taken morning rush hour readings on the Lex from E 180th down to Grand Central. 30 seconds is generous.
Track capacity for an infinitely long train is 0 tph, regardless of operating speed.
Notice that I was talking about cars per hour not trains, smart-ass!
Your figure of 40tph and the means of arriving at it are entirely sound for steel wheel on steel rail operation. Unfortunately signal systems don't tend to be that efficient. With ATO 40tph can be achieved, without doubt. ATO and "Matériel Pneu" together will reduce the time to decellerate and accelerate so that 60 tph is possible.
Your figure of 40tph and the means of arriving at it are entirely sound for steel wheel on steel rail operation. Unfortunately signal systems don't tend to be that efficient.
An additional 5 seconds would be added to minimum headway, if one were to lump signal latency and operator reaction time together. However, I overstated the nominal arrival and departure times by more. The capacity figure of 40 tph still holds. It's actually closer to the 42-45 tph range.
With ATO 40tph can be achieved, without doubt. ATO and "Matériel Pneu" together will reduce the time to decellerate and accelerate so that 60 tph is possible.
More than 40 tph has been achieved in NYC. The Brooklyn Bridge electrical operation permitted 66 tph. They used 100' long blocks and required 700' spacing between trains and had timers to limit max speed to 16 mph.
Today's Moscow subway operation is closer to the IRT with train length and acceleration/braking characteristics. They operate at 43 tph.
Exotic technologies are not required. NYCT has had rolling stock that had 4 mph/s acceleration/braking rates. The equipment was dumbed down for "customer comfort". They've also had equipment with 7 mph/s emergency braking rates.
Exotic technologies are not required. NYCT has had rolling stock that had 4 mph/s acceleration/braking rates. The equipment was dumbed down for "customer comfort". They've also had equipment with 7 mph/s emergency braking rates.
Then customer comfort be damned. They're not very comfortable to begin with if they're in a train running at 110% of its capacity.
"Exotic technologies" can work extremely well - 60 tph can be managed no problem on the Lille Métro.
The problem is in the cylce in some place.
I would say that in a place like 2 track at Canal 45 tph is still attainable (not that the E could pump that many trains into the system).
The problem is the cycle where 3 lines interact like Canal St on the SB. with a very good schedule high TPH is almost possible but not quite. Because of the merge and them holding you out of the station depending on the situation trains don't go thru the area at a uniform pace. If you are on a highway and a series of cars are lined up maintaining a time distance from their leader and they have to stop at a toll booth they will bunch up physically. As the car goes past the booth and then its follower the time distance will hopefully stay constant whiel the physical distance changes. The proble is that at certain places its like some cars pay with easy pass and others have to pay with pennies. Uneven intervals snowball making it worse.
Also 40 TPH makes it impossible to get BO equipment out of the way in many places. This morning a train went BO at WTC. If we were running at capacity they would have had to ABD lots of intervals while that track was out of commision. At 10 minute headways they were able to work on it for 20 minutes until they were able to move
it.
My understanding is that three service problem was at 71st Street, and it is a waste to run an empty local all the way to 179th. I wonder what it would cost to use the provision for the Winfield Branch to build another station, and terminate the G (and perhaps the R) there.
Larry, that is a great idea. If only there were some pocket
tracks at Roosevelt, that would go a long way to alleviating
congestion. During rush hours, trains are almost full by
the time they reach that station, which has a very high volume
of incoming passengers. Being able to short turn or gap a train
would mean providing a few nice empty trains to siphon off that load.
I would love to see the G return but in addition to the car shortage, Continental can't handle too many trains. The evenings on the weekdays are horrible. They already have more switchmen when the V started. Trains get tied up downstairs in the relay. If there is a shortage of platform C/R's it takes longer to clean out a train. If someone is not getting off then service is delayed further. Sometimes they don't have enough switchmen. Think of the P/I's in the morning. Traffic from the yard. Any little problem that happens and the schedule has greatly suffered. There is no breathing room for any delays it seems. The railroad shouldn't have to operate like that. I do not envy the dispatchers at Continental.
have you ever stood at hoyt street at 5pm waiting for the G ?I have, at many times,have waited for what it seems to be like 20 min... for one train
All the more reason to forget about re-extending the G. MTA should focus on providing more frequent G service south of Court Square. As new rolling stock arrives, the trains can be lengthened.
If there is a track circuit or a sick passenger you are going to wait even if the G goes to Staten Island
In the movie "The Clock" from 1945 with Judy Garland and Robert Walker,were the scenes showing them on the IRT actually filmed in the real stations?
I don't know the answer to your question, but weren't there some scenes in that movie filmed in the old Penn Station?
Yes,I believe the scenes were of the old Penn Station.
in service today 8181-84 with 8185-8188. Yes- they were running today.
Was originally going to spend the entire day in Manhattan, but with all the stuff closed in Midtown I left early. Anyway, I started off my ride on an ML Redbird on the 7 at 9:45am. The cab door was dented, very, very bad.
Was a pretty quick ride, although we got a little bunched up with a train ahead of us (another redbird) after Woodside. There was some minor crowding due to the G.O., all Flushing bound 7 trains ran express from Woodside. So we had to pick up the E/B riders for east of Woodside. Saw several trains of R62A operating today.
Track work around the 111st switches was the reason for the G.O., this seems to have been going on for awhile.
Also track workers all around Queensboro plaza.
Anyway, I got off at GCT and headed to the Lex line for the 6 train.
I wound up wiating almost 15 minutes! Several express trains came by, including an R142 5, while crowds grew and grew for the local. There was a track worker on the tracks. When I finally heard the horn, I knew the train was coming. I took the 6 for a crowded but otherwise uneventful R142 ride down to Canal. The C/R's shut off the announcements with that annoying ding sound (same as LIRR Bi-levels)at 14th street, Bleeker, and Canal. I sure wish they'd update them damn things already for the Q,W, and Grand Shuttle.
After hanging out in a busy Chinatown for a few hours, I planned on taking a Q uptown. Now I did read the G.O. notices on the MTA website, but don't remember anything for the Q. Heading down to Manhattan bound "bridge" platform at Canal there was a large crowd waiting. I walked toward the head end like I always do and notice a lone G.O. poster for this weekend, "Manhattan bound Q on upper N,R level". I looked back at all the people waiting on the platform, and said to myself, I guess they'll be waiting till Monday!
I headed up to the local platform and a Q arrived a minute later.
Heading north was a slow ride around 14th and 34th, even though we switched to the "express" track we never caught up to the train ahead of us. Got off at 34th street to see the pathetic ruins of the Manhattan Mall, which seems to claim they are improving and renovating, but the place is dismal. Not many shoppers either.
Along Herald Square it looks more like the old Times Square (no need to say any more, lotsa bums all around).
Not hanging around there too long, It was getting hot, and I wanted to cool off in the many buildings of Rockefeller Center (concourse, 1251, public spaces). A D arrived at 34th street, nicely A/C'd R68, where I took it to 47-50. I got off and headed up to the Mez. It was pretty quiet (just a few more people than the Canal street J,M).
Usually at noon this place is bustling. It was hot in there, and to my dissapointment the gates to RFC were all closed. Man this sucks, I headed up to the street on a rather deserted 6th ave, everything is barracaided off. I guess it's for a parade, but I didn't see any. Couldn't get into 1251, Mcgraw hill, or any monolith just to cool off.
Fed up, I headed to 49th street and broadway, and waited for the N. Had about an 18 minute wait, two R's came, then finally an N (R68).
Boarded the N and took it to QBP. The ride through 60th street was zippy as usual.
I just missed a 7 at QBP. After my N left, there was another Slant R40 N right behind it. And when the 7 finally came, an R32N pulled in across the platform. I guess the N's got delayed for R's coming out at Canal street (no R train between Canal and Brooklyn, as per G.O.)
The 7 was an R62A with no front window, but I was beat from the heat and took a seat.
Got pretty crowded, but the express run from Woodside to Flushing went pretty fast. Gotta love the way the train dances while going past 90th. Some congestion after Willets point, we had to wait for a train ahead of us to enter the station, then wait another 5 minutes for a train to leave.
From there I took an N20 to Greenvale, a stop at my fav chinese place and an N27 back home. Except for some of the usual Northern blvd crawl (this time in Queens) the bus rides went well.
Anyways, when the weather is hot, the city is not a fun place to be on the weekends. The closest thing to WTC is Rock CTR/6av, but it's all closed on weekends I guess. I want my WTC back!
The mall was open on weekends and was a good refuse from the heat. With it gone, there's really isn't anywhere large to cool off in NYC.
Well there is one large place, the Staten Island Mall. But I'm talking Manhattan here.
I wuz wondering.......what would you do if LI Bus, the LIRR and NYCTA subways and buses went out on strike at once ?...Hail a Sea Cliff taxi and go to Chinatown.........Just curious.
Bill "Newkirk"
Guess I wouldn't be going much of anywhere that is beyond walking distance!
LOL
(no R train between Canal and Brooklyn, as per G.O.)
How kind of the TA to inform the public! (Incidentally, why "detours" and not the usual "diversions"?)
I don't think they are updating that web site properly for service advisories. Yesterday morning, I met a family friend at the SI Ferry Whitehall terminal. Before leaving home, I checked MTA service advisories. No detours scheduled on the N/R. Picked up an N train at 14/Union Sq. and asked the friendly fellow t/o of any GO's. He told me none. Yet we had to sit outside Canal for a few minutes waiting for an R to discharge passengers due to a non posted website GO. Go figure!
On train 658 the train I was on broke down in line 3 just before getting out of the tunnel. It was due to a blown circuit in the computer, and the crews had lots of problems trying to restart them. The bells were ringing from the engine, but just before that, I saw an unusual arching coming out from the third rail, like orange instead of the blue just as we were entering line 3. I had my scanner on when the crews were calling PSCC, and 204. At least they were able to start the diesels, but boy did they stink, and the fumes were unbearable for a few moments. HEP from the 511 (lead engine) was not drawing, even when in diesel. The rear engine (509) was doing all of the work, but even with that in 8th notch could only go as fast as 30 MPH. Just before Kew Gardens, the engineer called 204 and stated that the 511 was overheating according to the computer, and that is when 204 said to disembark all passengers at Jamaica. Well, before Jamaica just as we entered Jay interlocking, the engine died, and the engineer called 204 again, and said "the computer is saying the engine is in safety shut off" meaning the engine died. So the train coasted down hill no faster than 6 MPH. Just as we made it to Jay tower, the train came to an abrupt stop. It took road crew inspectors as well as supervisors to restart the train, and make it to the platform at track 4. Well no new train was made up to what 204 said, so we had to board train 660 which was making the extra stops of what train 658 was supposed to do (Mineola, and Hicksville). That train was push to shove, meaning standing room only like a crouded Lexington Ave. line train all the way to Huntington. At least the conductor did not ask for tickets. Another thing that made the ride fun was usually 658 departs on track 19, so I waited on the platform only to find that the announcement from the PA stated that the train is on track 16. The LIRR should have the track the train is departing from on each schedule, so there is no confusion. Did anybody experience any extraordinary delay? After arriving at Port Jeff on train 660, the PA announcement stated "Due to an earlier disabled train in the East River Tubes, at this present time the LIRR is currently experiencing 15 to 20 minute delays systemwide". I hope that that occurance does not happen again to me. I usually have a few Fridays a year to go into the city and see the trains, and ride the Brighton Line from Broadway on the Q, and Grand Central on the 6(my favorite) to Coney Island, and from there to see my Grandmother. This problem on train 658 was the worst. Hope no one goes through what I went through. Any comments?
Those bi-level pieces of garbage!
It's sorta like an Orion in the form of a train.
Why oh why couldn't LIRR just get Genesis sets like Metro-North instead of this unreliable crap?
To what they claim, to speed up timeslots getting into and out of Penn Station without screwing up other trains, but what happened yesterday was proof that it fouled up valuable time slots for lots of trains that run through line 3.
>>>Any comments? <<<
Yeah, learn what paragraghs are.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Any comments? <<<
Yeah, learn what paragraghs are.
Peace,
ANDEE
ARE THE A-TRAINS TO ROCKAWAY INCRECING IN TERMS OF WAITING TIME. TONIGHT I WITNESSED TRAINS RUNNING ABOUT EVERY 8 MINUTES. YES THEY WHERE COMING FROM ROCKAWAY AND TRAINS DURING THE DAY SEEM TO BE RUNNING AT THE SAME MINUTES. DOES THE MTA HAVE A SPEACIAL SCHEDUAL FOR THE SUMMER TO AND FROM THE ROCKAWAYS SO THAT PEOPLE DONT HAVE TO WAIT ABOUT 20 MINUTES? ALSO I HEARD A WHILE BACK THAT THE MTA WAS GOING TO INCREACE SUBWAY SERVICE TO THE ROCKAWAYS. WHY DOES THE MTA WEBSITE NOT PUBLISH A NEW SCHUDULE?
Don't use ALL-CAPS. It's interpreted as SHOUTING.
And hard to read!
HEY BRITISH JAMES THANKS FOR TRYING TO SCOLD ME ABOUT USING CAPS, BUT I THINK I WILL CONTINUE TO USE THEM JUST FOR YOU
You may get killfiled by everybody!
FOR JACK:
I AM NOT SURPRISED IN THE LEAST THAT THE MTA HASN'T PUT ANY NEW A TRAIN TIMETABLE ONLINE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE E TRAIN TIMETABLE, YOU WILL SEE THAT IT HASN'T NOTICED THAT CHAMBERS-WTC HAS RE-OPENED. IF IT REALLY BUGS YOU THAT TRAINS DON'T SEEM TO BE RUNNING AT THE TIMES IT SAYS ONLINE, AS IT MAY WELL DO IF YOU USE THE FAR ROCKAWAY BRANCH, HOW ABOUT ASKING THE MTA FOR A COPY OF THEIR NEW TIMETABLE?
For everyone else:
I am not surprised in the least that the MTA hasn't put any new A Train timetable online. If you look at the E Train timetable, you will see that it hasn't noticed that Chambers-WTC has re-opened. If it really bugs you that trains don't seem to be running at the times it says online, as it may well do if you use the Far Rockaway Branch, how about asking the MTA for a copy of their new timetable?
It actually is a pain to read. If it's because you're too lazy (or unable) to use the shift key, you could try all lowercase.
Please do not write in all caps, I can't read that stuff.
They supposedly increased weekday service to 4 tph each on Rock and Lefferts branches. But you are reporting 7.5 tph on the Rockaway branch alone!
CSX F40PH-2s 9992 and 9993, ex Amtrak 390 and 395, have been repainted in the new blue and gold livery. The locomotives were leased from Amtrak to pull their business car trains, but they have since been purchased. Also, the Alaska Railroad is leasing Amtrak F40s 241 and 245 for help during the tourist season. They are to work with ARR's SD70MACs which do not have HEP.
Add to this data the 372 which has been leased to Coaster, the San Diego county commuter rail service, for over two years.
MN has in their arsenal 31 of the Genesis P32AC-DMs, enough to cover all diesel territory in NY and CT. This means that the future for the FL9, looks dim indeed. MN plans to keep some FL9Ms and three F10s for reserve duty, while the remaining Fl9ACs will be retired by 2004 due to costly reliablity problems. All Fl9s will be out of service by 2010.
The Fl-9s painted in NYC livery will live on, no?
>>All Fl9s will be out of service by 2010<<
I got a feeling it will be sooner than 2010.
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually, 2010 sounds pretty good. MNRR would be very stupid to throw them out now, since LIRR is currently working on ESA. If by some miracle the LIRR succeeds in building it by 2008 MNRR could then start service to NYPenn using some freed up slots. The best equipment to do that with is dual-mode engines, and wouldn't it be nice to be prepared?
Also, you know what happens when it snows on MNRR. Having extra DMs laying around is a very good thing in the winter.
>>Actually, 2010 sounds pretty good. MNRR would be very stupid to throw them out now<<
True, but whether it be LIRR, MNRR or NJT, if they have it in mind to replace something that's been around for years, they'll do so. If they want to replace all FL-9's with Genesis dual modes, they're going to do it.
There are four words that decide this, end of useful life. We think they can save the FL-9's, but they're minds are already made up.
Remember what happened to the D-Types and overhauled R-30's. Premature retirement !
Bill "Newkirk"
This information is in August 2002 Trains Magazine.
Sic TRANSIT Gloria Mundi!Anothr page turns like the passing of the redbirds, and R17,21 etc. I hated those FL9's as much as I hated every round of cars that replaced the old IRT stuff, then the R9's.Some dandy old New Haven electric engines bit the dust when the FL9 came in...but it is now their time.The only thing I feel now is why do the Genesis have to be such ugly beasts?
I only set foot in an FL9 once, at Croton North while it was idling, rady for an inbound trip. Had a buddy that worked it when I lived down in Ulster county. Noisy and CRAMPED in the cab of those things. Like a damned oven in the summer too. I'm sure the crews won't miss them.
I don't kow what year you got your chance in the cab of the FL-9, but it's my understanding that most got rebuilt cabs with the newer style control stands in later years.
I got to ride in almost every last one of the FL-9's in the 1960's between GCT and New Haven as my grandfather ran them on the NYNH&H.
I would go with him almost every Saturday. On one occasion I got REALLY lucky, and he had one of his fellow enginemen give me a ride back to Penn Station on one of the EP-5's, instead of backto GCT on the FL-9.
If you think the cramped cab, the summer heat is bad....think about the damn bouncing ride. The FL-9's had to be the WORST riding locomotives I ever rode in, thanks to that Flexicoil switcher truck under the front end. Of course, New Haven's track didn't help the situation either.
The entire cab did get new controls on consoles, and behind the cab, so, it was a total makeover.
Actually, I meant just the FL9AC's.
Only got to spend a minute or two in it while idling, friend ivited me up for a "look see" since it had the old original stand. Ex-Penn Central I *think*, dunno where it came from. Filthy inside too and belching lots of black smoke. It was normally not used but they had a loco shortage that day so my buddy's attitude was "here's something you don't see every day" ... couldn't ride it though, wasn't room. I can tell ya that my buddy was none too happy having to take it down to the city. :)
If it came from Penn Central [via the ex NH] no wonder it was a mess. I ran enough GP9 that were the same mecanically except of course for straight electric opeation and they weren't bad. As for noisy and hot any of the pre comfort cab engines shared that, EMD's anyway..at least the GE's had quieter cabs and the engine wasn't as noisy.I never worked any EMD's that weren't terribly noisy before the 60M's. I got to love the SD40 for their performance in every way...but I'm somewhat tone deaf because of them...and other EMD's.
Heh. Dunno if it was a former NH, but inside it was a MESS ... smoke and oil stains everywhere, diesel dust all over everything and BANGING cylinders. An absolute mess. That's why my buddy wanted to do the show and tell and invite me up front while we were waiting to go. Once I got my tour though, had to go sit in the back, It was belching smoke all the way up to Poughkeepsie all through the coaches. Something that was actually worse than the RDC's. :)
Yeah, the 38's and 40's still rule the roads around here. I really got spoiled by the 80MACs while Gonerail had them in service here. 60's ain't so bad. AT least I got to RIDE the rest. That FL9 though was one sorry beastie. If that was typical, it's amazing any are left in all sincerity ...
Do genesis' cabs have AirC (no not alternating current) in them?
I'd rather have a F than genesis any day. Though the Fs do need some valve cleaner cause they look like a really old 18 wheller that hasn't been mantained.
Yahh got ths from "Trains" magazine, I reckon?
I don't see any of the Fl-9's being scrapped. At least 4 will live on in MNRR/CDot Office Car Train service. The others will be bought by shortline/excursion operators or museums. If you remember, back in 1983 when NJT retired the fleet of DL&W MU's, a good portion of the fleet was preserved and now they make up the bulk of "olt timey" passenger cars in excursion operations accross the country. The FL-9's will proabaly be treated smilarily. MNRR/CDoT are not at all hostile Re: preservation of cars and equipment and it would be out of character for them to scrap these exceedingly historic units.
Remember that old tower, that was last used by the signal department by the handicapped elevator leading to the (W) platform ?
Most of the windows are open and it looks like they move out lock, stock and barrel.
Also that semifore (sp?) by the building was removed. The semifore was the last one used in the system, from New Lots Ave. (IRT). When they first installed the semifore, it would change when you opened the small door at then end of the platform for access to the tracks. This was before they built that hanicapped elevator and platform approach.'
Bill "Newkirk"
I was down at Coney Island a couple of weeks ago, and most of the station is still there. Still waiting for a major teardown, let alone a replacement.
Okay, the terminology is fuzzy to me, so I'm not going to try and use it, but hopefully someone will get my gist.
LIRR is having problems connecting Amfleets to their DM engines because the connections (electrical?) are incompatible. (Something about 24 pins vs. 36 pins?). Anyway, since the C-1s and Fl-9s are also incompatible to the rest of the fleet, that made me wonder if they are the "standard" connection that the rest of the civilized railroad world uses. And, if so, would that mean that if the LIRR had kept their Fl-9s they would be able to run the Amfleet service to the east end like they wanted to?
Yep, they were the same as Metro North's, but due to the different coupler for the C-1's, they were not compatible to the rest of the fleet. Although electrically, they would be compatible to Amfleet equipment. I wished that the LIRR never got rid of the FL9AC's. If properly maintained along with the C-1's they would have been running on the Port Jeff Branch on trains 605 and 660 for at least 10 to 20 years before going out of service.