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If you're here you either read about it somewhere or discovered the links on the Status page. I tried to reopen the place with as little fanfare as possible.
So, what's changed?
Not much. In the end I decided that none of the various options, even in combination, were very appealing. The survey confirmed that.
In terms of the invite-only question, the only change I made was that all handle applications get processed by me. No more automatic approvals. I also cleaned up the database of users. Anyone who hadn't posted 25 times since 1/1/2002 got purged. I'm sure this affects some infrequent but regular users, so just reapply for a password. I'll also be keeping track now of how often a user posts and when they last posted so that the users database can be kept clean on a regular basis. (No reason to have 2,000 accounts in a database of only 400 regular users.)
I decided to go with Amazon Honor System to try and recoup some of the site's costs. I figure most people are familiar and comfortable with shopping on Amazon. Amazon will accept donations between $1 and $50 at a time charged to your credit card. You can even "unpay" a donation if you feel you're not getting your money's worth, without having to dispute the charge on your credit card. They take 15% off the top for the service but it's better than nothing. I don't want to deal with checks in the mail. For now, the banner ad asking for support will -only- appear on the "Talk" screens since that's the part of the site with the most overhead and demand on resources.
Don't forget you can also "donate" to the site by shopping on Amazon starting at the Bibliography at http://www.nycsubway.org/biblio/
This isn't limited to just subway items, either.
Speaking of costs: costs doubled for next year. nycsubway.org uses up a T-1 of bandwidth at peak times, the equivalent of around a 768k line averaged over a week. I doubt many of you have priced that kind of bandwidth but even at well under market rates it still costs several thousand dollars a year to host the site, and that's not counting any hardware replacement cost. (In fact, one of my two servers died during the hiatus and got swapped out. It's now in my home office hosting the archives.)
You can even make donations anonymously, or choose to send me a notice with your name. Even if you choose not to donate please keep in mind that when you are getting something for nothing you can at least be civilized toward each other.
You can even see, on the donations page, how much has been raised. If the donations actually do come in at a level that will cover the costs of the site, remaining donations will be re-donated to a transit or trolley museum of my choice in the name of the site.
Also, I changed the URL's slightly to make cgi management easier on me but that shouldn't affect you; you might have lost your cookie since February, anyway. But if not, unless you were purged (see above) your passwords will still be valid.
And finally, why was the hiatus so long? Well it just came at a bad time. You all know this isn't my full time job. I also bought a new condo and moved into it. This took a lot of time between December and April-- negotiations, lawyers, settlement, home improvements, and moving-- and then, no broadband Internet access (How you miss it!). I needed a vacation from site updates. As you've probably noticed some of the backlog of updates have been made in the past couple of weeks. So when the complaints and threats came around (someone complained to me anonymously about a post and threatened to report the poster, the site, and me to the FBI for supporting possible terrorist activity), that was it-- I had no time to deal with everything at once and the site lost out.
And finally, I've talked to Harry Beck privately since the hiatus began but I
wanted to thank him for his hospitality since then, and I hope his
board remains as an alternative for those of you put off by the
hiatus. :-)
So. Welcome back.
Dave
p.s. Lets not start a whole thread on this. We really don't need a
big thread about how glad you are that the talks are back, or how
angry you are at me, or how much of an a** you think I was. I read it
all on the other boards and it doesn't need to be said again. Lets
just get back to business.
Welcome back. Simply that!
Chuck
Test Message.
First off I'd like to say welcome back Bus/SubTalk! You've been surely missed.
Secondly, I have to thank Harry Beck for giving some of us transit talkers a temporary home on his Other Side of the Tracks site while this board was on hiatus.
Thirdly I thank Dave Pirmann for giving us another chance.
Finally-let's get back to what we know best-Bus and SubTalk.
Welcome back boards!!!
#1979 X17
R62A #1979
Do I exist?
I think not....
Rene Decartes
Finally...the Kev HAS COME BACK to Subtalk
Well, Rock's off making movies, so I stole his line.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's nice to be back.
Harry's place is nice, but, like Dorothy said, "There's no place like home".
Everybody, behave here like you do at Harry's Place, and all will be fine.
dave can i send you a donation with a postal money order ???
it would be eiser than a credit card for me .....
Well, I'd prefer not to deal with that sort of thing (checks, money orders, basically the same thing). Just trying to avoid frequent trips to the bank...
Well, how about cash? That's how I do business, much to the chagrin of my wife who implores me not to send cash but use checks and money orders.
make sure you send it so nobody can see it thru the envelope ...
thats what i am going to do next month or so.......
..lol ..!!
Where can I swipe my MetroCard? LOL
Good to have to back Dave.
That's a good idea. Little USB-port Metrocard readers that I make you swipe each time you log on. :-)
If we log onto SubTalk, can we then log onto BusTalk within 2 hours and 18 minutes for free?
(Me, I think I'll take the 30-day unlimited.)
In the words of those three Goofy Guards:
Yippee!!
Yappee!!!
Yahooey!!!!!!
NOW . . . NOW
Let's not start scrolling text...the next thing you know HEYPAUL will be back.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry. It's just that scrolling text cracks me up. I will keep it to a minimum.
Glad to see you back!
-- Ed Sachs
Dave: Can I E-Mail you at either pirmann@panix.com or pirmann@quuxuum@hotmail.com? Please let me know. Thanks.
> pirmann@panix.com or
Yes
> pirmann@quuxuum@hotmail.com
That's not even valid syntax for an email address. I don't have a hot mail login.
-Dave
Wow ... you really CAN go home again. Nice to be back. The welcome mat is out. The couch is still comfy. And the room is clean!
Ahhhh ....
--Mark
VERY nice to be back! Me likes the ol' surroundings, akin to Fred and his Triplexs or Selkirk with his pre war IND units.
Thanks for having us Dave!
Al
....
I know you said you didn't want this, but thanks for bringing the talks back! Without this place I'd have nowhere to talk about this kind of stuff... I'm not outgoing enough to integrate myself into other boards.
Dave, Thanks for having us back. We missed you.
Let the education & enjoyment continue ....
Mr rt :-)
Now now, let's not go hitting yourself for doing something that was justified. You did what you had to do, and I accept that. Heck, you run this place, man. Think about it! No matter what, everything is fine and good, and I will certainly try to make some contributions in the near future (That is, once I've recouped my costs from my latest Hong Kong trip...But that's another story.)
-J!
Thanks...
Well it only took two days for the first thread about donuts to show up. And it wasn't even thread drift, this was a whole topic all to itself. Come on people... I realize you guys all enjoy friendly conversations with each other but I'm not sure anyone cares whether you prefer KK or DD donuts.
Nice to have yo back.
I did this on another thread, but thank you Dave, for bringing back Subtalk. We'll try not to clutter the board with tangents on fast food, movies, TV shows and religion.
WON'T we??
This is a number five train to 241st and Wakefield. Pleeese Do Not Lean On Doors Thankyouverrrrrymuch. CI Peter
Donation sent...I dunno if I was the first, but the total showed $0.00 when I started.
Let's hope others follow....
Thanks to those who have donated. Unfortunately the total $ counters on the donations page will not show donations UNTIL the 30 day window for "unpaying" has past. So in 30 days the counters will start to increase.
Hey,
Nice to see SubTalk back in action. I understand your reasons for shutting it down and they were pretty valid. Hopefully users on SubTalk (and BusTalk) can discuss and exchange ideas respectfully.
Its great to be back here. I hope that "Low Life Jack-Ass Jerk" (the moron who is responsible for subtalk hiatus) doesn't show up again and ruin the party.
Gosh, I go away on vacation for a week and when I return Subtalk is back! Now I don't feel so bad about the money I lost in Atlantic City!
>>Gosh, I go away on vacation for a week and when I return Subtalk is back!<<
Bob, That's funny, I also was on vacation this week. I found out from Hot Lunch! that SubTalk was back.
Dave P, Welcome back, let's hope we behave this time.
Harry Beck, Thanks for sheltering us boardless posters in the months that have passed.
Glad to be back,
Bill "Newkirk"
Just testing. Welcome back.
Welll...tis good to be right back where I belong and where it all started. And on a day that saw a topsy-turvy BMT - imagine Slants on the Circle "Q" masquerading as the "W", and a one-lunger on the "L", with all the remaining Slants and all the new equipment sound asleep in Canarsie Yard; a rip-roaring thru "J" express, all the way from Eastern Parkway, OOPS- Broadway Junction now - it was Beautifully Messy Transit, everybody (myself included) was totally confused, and we all had a real good time.
wayne
Good to see you back Wayne.
Simon
Swindon UK
I didn't find out until yesterday that SubTalk had been reinstated, else I'd have come back sooner. I am very relieved to see this valuable forum back in business.
wayne
Haven't heard from you in a while at Harry's Place; glad to have you back. BTW, I will be in the city from Saturday, October 12 until Friday the 18th. More on this offline.
There are R-40's on the Q-via-West-End this weekend? This I've got to see.
This was one: (south motor first)
4401-4400, 4415-4414, 4396-4397, 4290-4291 and 4228-4229.
and this one: (north motor first)
4254-4255, 4190-4191, 4214-4215, 4279-4278, 4325-4324
and THIS one:
4256-4257, 4204-4205, 4330-4331, 4320-4321, 4276-4277
and even:
4194-4195, 4176-4177, 4292-4293, 4270-4271, 4285-4284
wayne
Yes, I saw, I saw! (I didn't write down numbers, though.) Unfortunately, I was hoping to ride one from 14th to Stillwell, but they were all going north. Eventually I gave up and got on the third R-68 trainset. Since it was getting quite late and riding the West End on an R-68 is no thrill, I crossed over at 9th Avenue and caught an R-40 set back into Manhattan.
Yep, nothing beats a Slant. We were "lookin' out my back door" aboard #4229 all the way from Canal Broadway to Coney Island. It's kind of fun seeing where you came from. Got a look at the turnout leading to Chambers Street (with track still in place but no switch) too.
BTW #4320 had its white-letter-on-gold "N" showing between cars.
wayne
Does anybody know if there were R-40's on the Q last Saturday, when this same GO was in effect?
I hope this becomes a fixture of this recurring GO. One of these weeks I'll make it down to Stillwell and get a picture of an R-40 train signed with circle-Q's on the W platform.
Did anyone make it out to the Brighton Q shuttle? What equipment was it running, the usual R-68's or something more extravagant? (Where were the R-68A's, anyway? I don't think I saw any on the Q or on the N, and they're usually out in force on the N on weekends. They must have been on the Brighton shuttle.)
Did any trains run express on 4th Avenue? Did any trains use the DeKalb bypass? Railfan windows have been hard to come by on the DeKalb bypass since 1997, when the B and Q swapped equipment.
They could easily install a switch at that spot and have a one-way Nassau Loop if an emergency reroute were ever necessary.
Welcome back SubTalk!! Let's hope no "terrorist" type posts shut this board down again!! Welcome back once again!!
Thanks for bringing the talks back. They were missed by myself and by many others as well.
Good to have Subtalk back. I learned a lot about the NYC Subway and other rail services here from many of the other posters on this board. I hope that continues. Good to see Subtalk back. Thanks, Dave!
Yes, it still works!
Glad it s back, missed you guys
Well.. I'm so glad it's back up
It is good to be back,. I for one will try to stick to discussions of our beloved subway.
Ditto...Welcome back.
Peace,
ANDEE
hey!! i'm home again!
thanks dave and glad we are back
"discussions of our beloved subway"
How about out of town systems like Dayton Ohio? The have a great web site. (LOL!)
Dave,
I'm as happy that everyone else is here like me. Glad that everyone else, or just a few of them is here. It is cozy only to have a few, and not a major crew here like before Subtalk went down.
Delighted to see Subtalk back again.
Let's hope we can all keep it under control this time.
The first of the fleet of R32's have gone over 2 million miles in service - I'm sure the remainder will follow. Here's hoping they all get to see THREE million miles of service ...
By comparrison, the R-68s are approaching 900,000 miles per car after 16 years of service. That's about 52.5 K-miles per year per car. Now, on the otherhand, the R-32s at about 1.9 million miles per car after 38 years is 50 K-Miles per year per car. Sounds like my R-68s are being worked to death.
I'd agree ... I think you ought to write them up for a promotion and a raise to a new pay grade. Where do I sign? :)
Seriously, rode some of your cars and some of the other 68's from Coney. Yours were smooth (aside from that ground loop noise on the PA on the CPW stretch) whereas the Coney cars had this AWFUL journal bearing screech from the trucks. Drove HeyPaul, Bingbong and I NERTZ on the northbound on the Brighton that evening.
See? Some thing never change. Heh.
"Drove HeyPaul, Bingbong"
I knew the Coney Island cars were good for something.
Heh. Just be glad I didn't bring my greasegun along for the ride. NEXT TIME I WILL. :)
What awful screeching noise? It must've been that one car because that horrible screeching which is normal for a redbird, is rare on 68s I see everyday.
Might have been. I don't do much subway the last 30 years. I could tell from the noise (and it was LOUD) that it was a bad roller bearing on one of the wheels, front truck, lead car. I'm told that there are a few cars that suffer that problem. Not many, but enough of them.
Maybe, but at least they're well-cared for and have been right from the start. If they continue to receive proper maintenance, they may last for 5 million miles.
Actually, when they came on the property, it was at the height of "we won't wash it, we won't grease it, there by the grace of God goes that carbody" ... the only advantage that they had at the time was that they were NEW and well built. They didn't need maintenance and didn't get any. They might not have required the GOH when they did if they had gotten their TLC up front ...
Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the R-68s. You're right about the R-32s - they arrived when deferred maintenance was in full swing. Even they weren't immune to the ravages of neglect. Now the Triplexes OTOH would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance.
Does anyone know What series of cars logged the most miles in their career?
(I remember a Daily News Article in the late 1970s titled "A Day in the Life of Car 8967" ... it would be interesting to see how much has (or hasn't) changed since that article ran .....)
--Mark
As Nixon used to say, "I'm glad you asked that question."
I'd have to say it would be a tossup between the Gibbs Hi-Vs and BMT standards. It's a good bet both of those car classes logged well over 2 million miles per car, perhaps even 3 million.
>>>Sounds like my R-68s are being worked to death. <<<
Yep, good cars, ride 'em daily. Now if only you could get rid of some of their unfortunate noises.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's about 52.5 K-miles per year per car. Now, on theo therhand, the R-32s at about 1.9 million miles per car after 38 years is 50 K-Miles per year per car. Sounds like my R-68s are being worked to death
Could one of the reasons for the R-68's extra per annum mileage be the link bars? They used to run shorter trains of R-32's during off-peak hours. :-)
No, Stephen, I don't think so. The mileage was accumulated over 16 years. The link bars on the R-68s is a relatively new addition. They were installed less than 3 years ago. The R-68s ran 13 years as single cars.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, Kevin. The R32s are my favorite equipment in the B Division.
May they be around to see another 2,000,000 miles! :)
Yeah, I'm willing to adopt them since the R1/9's are no longer on the property and I did work a few 32's in my days as well. The cab though reminded me way too much of redbirds so my heart is not quite in them like the R9's ... still, well built toys and time continues to prove that. Though I got my schoolcar on everything from the R1/9's to Q cars to the 44's, I really didn't like the newer cars at all and there was no way I was going to get any Qcar duty since they were already out of revenue service by the time I posted.
I just wish that the GOH hadn't ruined the original character of the cars. That GOH turned them into mutants. Air conditioning, cyclops destination signs on the bulkheads, no blue doors. Foo. :)
My feelings exactly.
>>>...cyclops destination signs on the bulkheads, no blue doors. Foo. :) <<<
...and DON'T FORGET, no green lights on the side route signs.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh yeah ... forgot about that. The green tubes were still in most of them when I left the city. I always liked the P1 phosphors ... pity GE stopped making them. But of all the accoutrements, it's the destination signs on the bulkheads that I miss the most. Don't remember if they took out the marker lights - was so disappointed by the cyclops eye up top, didn't notice if the markers are still there or not. I was on the lookout for "new tech" and of course the 68's which weren't on the property when I left either. Hell, the 62's were fresh meat to me. :)
>>>Don't remember if they took out the marker lights...<<<
Yea, they're gone too...
Peace,
ANDEE
Geez ... then they're NOT 32's anymore. When the whites or greens were rotated, the markers were brighter than the headlights on those things. No wonder I didn't notice ...
No backlit side signs, period. That goes for the Redbirds, too. And the R-38s.
This is true. And remember when the destination signs lit up for the north and south terminals lit up? I was thinking about that while on my R32 train today. I'd love to see that come back.
See Kev, now you got me all nostalgic again! ;)
Heh. I looked at them as interlopers, killing off my mighty arnines. But I got to like them. Did a number of runs on them when I was a conductor and had a ball with the PA back in the days when most conductors had "stage fright" and made no announcements at all. For me, it was an opportunity to do my morning radio show for the geese. (Gee, I guess that's why I spent more time on arnines)
But yeah, I remember when they had BRIGHT markers, lights on the end signs and working heaters in the cab. I musta done maybe 6 runs in 32's as a motorman but I preferred the arnines and would willingly fall back a train or three when crews sneered at having to run an AMUE. And everybody was more than willing to let me have my rail adventures. It's strange thinking of 32's as geezers. Heh.
I like that, Kev! A "morning radio show" over the PA!
Unfortunately, nowadays the TA frowns upon us being creative when it comes to announcements. They'd rather you make the same canned announcements over and over again. It gets rather mundane after awhile.
This is New York! People have to get up and go to work whether they want to or not. Why not put a smile on their faces during their commute? Make it a pleasant experience?
I know of one conductor who always makes his trips on the A line a rather enjoyable experience. He has his own set of passengers that look forward to riding his train every morning. If he books sick or is otherwise absent from work, they want to know where he is and if he's alright. They know him by first name and look forward to the "experience" (as he calls it) every morning Monday through Friday.
I wish I could have heard you over the PA back then. I'm sure you'd have had me splitting my sides! :)
Heh. Unfortunately some management types rode my train (I think that's why I got put back in the rain) and didn't like my "Next stop Bedford Park - catch the Bronx handshake with the CC which will be pulling out as soon as I open the doors" and things like that. At 34th, I'd announce the transfer to the Broadway BMT with a reassurance that the train you were on is faster and will get to DeKalb TODAY and things like that. Closing up, I'd tell folks on the platform "there's another train that looks JUST like this train that'll be along in a few minutes, step lively or lose it" ... I'd also do time and temperature, a bit of a forecast and an occasional good joke I'd heard the night before.
Management was NOT amused. :)
Comparing the current Q schedule to the pre-flip D/Q schedule, the running time from 34th to DeKalb varies between the two routes (via express and bridge) by no more than a minute.
Well ... I'm talking summer/autumn 1970 when the D flew and the QB had all sorts of slow orders through the bad tracks downtown. Back in the heyday of "if the train didn't careen into a wall, we don't need to repair that track section" ... the BMT was a *mess* back then. It was more like 8 minutes or so if both trains left 34th at the same time. There was also something about the south side of the bridge that screwed some things up on the BMT as well. I worked the D though and the Q was the "QB" at the time.
Oh yeah ... the QB was mostly R27/30's at the time also. :)
Yup... That is what I rode on when I was living in Brooklyn.
Had that awful MTA Silver/Blue scheme.
I remember when the 27/30s were new, and the cat's meow!
Heh. Some of them were still red or that old blackish green. What was funny was folks would walk up to me on the R9's and ask me why the IRT was running on the Brighton line. Lots of folks never noticed the difference between four doors on a car and three and were convinced they were redbirds. :)
These are the kind of conductors I'd like to see (hear) more of, but too bad the TA isn't fond of these types.
Yeah, there was a time not all that long ago when FUN wasn't a crime. :)
Just think of what they would have thought if you had added a "Neener-neener" or two.:-)
Nah, I was doing my DJ bit ... now if they had turntables in the cab, that woulda been something. :)
Heck, I can still see those green backlit "57th St." signs on that very first train of shiny new R-32s I rode on back in July of 1965. Of course, seeing "Coney Island" backlit in green on the return trip was even better. I even remember seeing backlit side signs on the R-1/9s.
Let me open the first thread on rail (thanks, Dave!).
I'm in Portland, OR now and have just ridden MAX, their light rail service. Very nice. I was in SFO yesterday, and not much new to report there, except that all the "toys" were out on Market Street (PCCs, Milan cars, historic SFO trolleys, etc.)
I had a quick trip to Paris and London, and rode Eurostar between the two cities. I submitted some images to Dave which I'm sure he'll post at some point when he's caught up with the backlog.
A few days ago at Seashore, we took out the R-7A/R-4 "A train" of 1440/800. It needs some TLC on the brake package, so any interested folks are invited to come up this summer and help.
Heh Todd, *still* popping into emergency when you make a service reduction? :)
Is there a subtalk day at Seashore planned this year? I still don't have a job and will have the time :) :(
Todd,
Bill P. is supposed to come down to Branford to pick up some
ahhhh nine pahhhts. He & I may be collaborating on UE-5 overhauls.
Well I got news, hopefully with in 2 weeks I will be presenting my Second Avenue Subway plan to Cooper Union College. This is for 2 reasons, to show Cooper Union that although I am a HS student that I am a harder worker with dreams to build a great city, and 2 to see if they can help me contact people necessary to get it out to the people.
Wish me luck everyone!
By the way...WOO HOO SUBTALK IS BACK!
Christopher, I'm a professor at Cooper Union. What exactly
is this about? You can contact me by email if you wish.
Professor Hakner?!........
Good luck, man! I'm so surprised; it would be a miracle if the MTA considered your plan!
Good luck. And it's great to be back.
Welcome back!
Good to have this message board back!
It good to be back again & i feel like i just got out of prison after 80 days.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Dave
Thanks for bring back this board. I have another city to add to your photo section.
Phil Hom
Great! Can't wait to see... :)
-Dave
Just to let u know dave I'll happily e-mail u my TGV pics
this am 8141 to 8144 were testing with 8145-8148.
8109-8112 are in service as of 3 weeks ago with 8113-8116.
Yes. I rode that set this morning on the L.
8109-8112 and 8113-8116 are in service, what about 8101-8108?
We only have 2 trains of 143's on the L?
I counted 4 trains when I went, excluding those two. I think 8128 and family are in service as well..(I've no idea what the family is, I'm pretty sure I was on 8128).
8128 is part of the 8125-818 series. The last time it was on the road, it was with 8129-32.
nice cars
8101-8108 are in service. The reason for the post is that prior to this time,. 8109-8112 and 8113-8117 were not in service.
Dave:
I know you requested that we not start a huge thread about how great it is to have SubTalk back, so I'll make this short and sweet: Thanks for bringing the Talks back up, and thanks for hosting this site to begin with. Not only has it taught me more than I ever wanted to know about transit systems, but has also introduced me to a community of great friends.
Also, thanks to Harry for hosting an interim forum, and I hope to be a regular contributor to both forums. (That said, for some reason SubTalk just feels like "home" to me.)
Okay, enough of that. On to business... I'd like to help SubTalk get re-started with a fun thread.
I'm pretty active with a couple other active forums on the web, including a UK-based Christian satire website, Ship of Fools. On the discussion board "Hell", there's a thread titled Tube Stations from Hell, which is basically a thread in which people rant about their least-favorite stations on the London Underground. (Paddington, Waterloo, Camden Town, Edgware Road, Bank and Charing Cross are the front runners.)
One of the posters, however, made an interesting observation:
"King's Cross does have one redeeming feature: a mobius junction. To get to Euston, you can either go north on the Northern Line or... south on the Victoria Line. Put it another way, you can go north on the Northern Line from Kings Cross to Euston, then north on the Victoria Line from Euston to Kings Cross, and repeat ad infinitum. Why anyone would want to do this, I cannot think."
Can anybody else think of another mobius junction on any other system, or any other similarly odd quirks? I recall a "NYC Subway Trivia" thread some time back that had a list of some strange routings on the NYC Subway, but I haven't had a chance to search the archives for it. And with all the route changes since then, it's probably outdated anyway.
Have fun!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Conrail had a block station "Hell" on the Lyons Falls Secondary Track. This branch was sold to the Mohawk Adirondack & Northern RR about 1990. Look on an old CR Albany Div. timetable, it is there.
While it may not be a true Mobius situation, pre-Chrystie, one could start at Brighton Beach, go south to Stillwell, switch to the Sea Beach tracks, thru 4th Av, Montague, Nassau Loop, Manhattan Bridge, and back down the Brighton.
Another interesting situation, again, pre-1967, and probably not a Mobius situation, could occur during rush hours. A D and E could pull into Jay St on parallel tracks across a platform; later in the run, at 7 Av/53 St, the same two trains pull in on anti-parallel tracks across a platform!
Here's a thought that has occurred on this board:
- It would be nice if the G train went to Manhattan.
- So, install a connection between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Jay St so that the G can connect into the Rutgers tunnel. Basically, the G becomes a Brooklyn extension of the V.
- Now where does the G/V terminate? How about Continental Ave.?
This gives you the possibility of a G train from Continental to Court Sq to Hoyt-Schermerhorn to Rutgers Tunnel to 6th Ave to E 53rd St to Continental. So then, when you see a G at Continental or Queens Plaza heading westbound, the question becomes, which G is this, the one that gets to Manhattan sooner, or the one that gets there later?
Or they could split it at Bedford/Nostrand:
G - Continental - Queens Local - 53rd St - 6th Av Local - Rutgers - Lafayette Av - Bedford/Nostrand
S - Bedford/Nostrand - Court Sq (- Continental)
- So, install a connection between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Jay St so that the G can connect into the Rutgers tunnel. Basically, the G becomes a Brooklyn extension of the V.
I would assume that all that would be necessary would be some sort of switch at H-S. It seems like it would solve a lot of problems:
The G finally goes to Manhattan.
The V could be eliminated.
It would terminate between Court Square and Continental.
The problems I see would be:
Some stations like Greenpoint Ave would have a roundabout route through Brooklyn just to get back to Manhattan. It would still be faster for them to transfer at Court Sqyuare to Ely Ave. All in all though it would improver service for alot of the other stations, and passengers from Greenpoint AVe, Nassau, etc would be no better or worse off anyway.
Ideally, the G should be set up as a loop so a connection at H-S (which I think would be relatively simple I think), and another at Court Square (which would would be a little harder).
Even the connection between H-S and Jay St would require some expensive tunneling and so isn't really likely to happen. Unless of course you forced the G onto the A/C tracks, thus reducing their capacity, which also would not be a good idea.
"Ideally, the G should be set up as a loop so a connection at H-S (which I think would be relatively simple I think), and another at Court Square (which would would be a little harder)."
Makes the workings of the Circle Line in London seem simple. "This is Edgware Road. This train is about to sit around for twenty minutes for no apparent reason, then leave very slowly."
I hate Edware Road. There is a main line train leaving Paddington in ten minutes time, the next is not for another two hours, so all the drivers at Edware Road get off their trains to have a picnic or whatever. The level of information there is non-existant. It is almost as though the people at the station don't have a clue.
I found the stations you refer to on the map, and understand completely what you mean. The transfer at Kings Cross appears to be through a passageway, rather than at a platform. Possibly, a similar situation exists at Euston as well. The point is that the two lines are considered "parallel" most of their route, but cross each other in the "perpendicular" direction with at least two stations for transfer.
I don't think such a situation exists in NYC. One could imagine that instead of a second IND trunk line on 6th Av, the City decided to build it further east, say, Madison Av, but have the same "northern" extensions on CPW and in Queens. Along 53 St, the 2nd Av trains from CPW would stop not only at 7 Av, but 5 Av as well. Thus, a rider on the "D" or "B" could get on at 7 Av, go "south" to 5 Av, get off, get on a "southbound" E, and return to 7 Av.
I personally was not too crazy about the Kings Cross, Waterloo and Bank stations. And any station that is closed because the elevator is out of order.
Kings Cross is interesting though in which if you want to transfer between the Northern/Victoria Lines and the Hammersmith/Circle/Met Lines, you have to pass through one set of turnstiles and leave the fare control area and then walk about 250 yards to get to the second fare control area and pass through those turnstiles.
Kinda like the old setup at Franklin Av for the A/C/S lines, but not as easy as that.
My least favourite are:
1) Hammersmith. It really is a joke. The District to Piccadilly Line interchange is easy - it's across the platform. The Hammersmith and City Line Station is the other end of Hammersmith.
2) Edgware Road (Cir, Dis, H&C - not Bak). Time seems to stop here - no trains move for absolutely aaaaages. Then every train seems to go to Parson's Green, regardless of where you want to go.
3) Eusless Euston Square. Conveniently about 600 yards from Euston main line station. Really exactly what one needs when one's arrived on a late running Virgin Train from Birmingham when the Buffet closed at Coventry.
Aren't the two Hammersmiths considered two separate stations?
Is there even a free transfer there?
They are indeed two separate stations, but one is allowed to make a free transfer between them.
Hence there are some versions of the map that show it as a 3-line interchange. Shame that they demolished the track connection from the H&C Line to the District west of Hammersmith!
When was it demolished? It was last used nearly a century ago.
What other free passenger transfers require a stroll outside fare control?
What other free passenger transfers require a stroll outside fare control?
Not sure if your question was specific to London, but here in Chicago, we have such a transfer between the State/Lake elevated station (Brown, Green, Purple, and Orange lines) to the State Street Subway (Red Line). One must leave fare control, go up (or down) to street level, and enter the other station. You have to use a farecard to take advantage of the free transfer, but no fare is deducted.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Ah, yes, I used that transfer a few years ago, when it still used paper. Glad to hear it's been electronified. Does the transfer function independent of any other transfer privileges the CTA offers? Is an exit swipe required?
As most of us here know, the TA introduced two "walking transfers" on 12/16/01: at 63/Lex (F) - 59/Lex (4/5/6/N/R/W) and at 45th Road (7) - Court Square/23rd-Ely (E/G/V). They're only available with MetroCard and they take the place of any transfer to or from a bus that you might have been planning. There's no exit swipe, so, in fact, one can take the subway anywhere, walk to one of the four approved stations, and get back in for free. I've used this many times to make round trips for one fare.
With all the transfer privileges out there, I wonder if the TA has considered allowing unlimited transfers to anything within two hours of the first swipe.
Does the transfer function independent of any other transfer privileges the CTA offers? Is an exit swipe required?
No and no. It seems to work much the same way you describe on the NYCTA's two "walking transfers" you mention. (In fact, New York and Chicago use identical fare control systems.)
I've used this many times to make round trips for one fare.
A few years ago the CTA changed the transfer rules to allow a transfer to be used on the same line it was purchased on, allowing round-trips to be taken on one fare as long as the last segment begins within the normal 2 hours.
The way transfers work in Chicago is that the initial ride is $1.50, one transfer within 2 hours is another $.30, and a second transfer within that same two hours is free. I'm not sure how that compares with the NYC system.
-- David
Chicago, IL
NYC's transfer policy is simple: each paid fare (via MetroCard) comes with one free bus-bus, bus-subway, or subway-bus transfer (subway-subway transfers are done inside fare control, with two exceptions), valid for about two hours (2:18, actually, but clocks may not be synchronized and two hours is the only guarantee -- on Monday I had to pay a second fare even though I was just barely within the 2:18 window, but I had no recourse). For bus-bus transfers, the two buses must be different lines, so straightforward round trips are out, but in many cases there happen to be two different lines that both travel between point A and point B, or maybe the same trip is possible via subway or via a single bus. Pairs of subway trips are never allowed except at the four aforementioned stations.
Oh, wait, there's one more exception, due to a technicality. The B42 bus stops at the Rockaway Parkway L station inside fare control, right at the platform. Let's say you live in Canarsie near the B42. You board the B42 and dip your MetroCard. You transfer to the L train into Manhattan and spend an hour there. But you still have a transfer encoded on your card, and, better yet, it's a transfer from a bus! So when you swipe at the L station in Manhattan, no fare is deducted. So you ride back to Rockaway Parkway and board the B42 for free.
i'm going w/ my older bro to D.C. i a few weeks, and we're thinking of doing a little railfanning along the way. i was wondering if the WMATA is accessible of not, and if it is, then how accessible it is, thanx everyone :)
WMATA is one hundred percent accesible. All the stations have elevators in them as do most of the buses. The gap between the train and platform is almost non-existant. Do be advised that elevators are out of service for various reasons. These announcements are not always made on trains and sometimes, while they are made in stations, you have to be in the station at the right time and even those aren't always audible. There is a whiteboard at each station manager's kiosk so you can check up on the statuses. You can also see it on Metro's website (www.wmata.com) and you can also call 202-637-7000. Enjoy your trip!
MetroRail was designed to met the requirements as set by the American with Disabilities Act (ADA). Make sure you check to see what stations have elevators out of service.
Recently one rider (who uses a wheelchair) found several station that had non-working elevators that was not listed. He vented by yelling a four letter word at the station manager from the platform. The manager warned him to stop it, and he yelled the word again. A WMATA police on duty served him with a $25.00 ticket. The WMATA board (after reading about this in the Wash Post) is trying to get the ticket dismissed over the bad PR.
It's time to abandon the Manhatan Bridge and place the tracks in two 2 track tubes from Dekalb Avenue to Canal Street (BMT Broadway) & Grand Street (BMT/IND 6th Avenue). I don't think the bridge will be ready before 2004.
Manhattan brideg repairs started back in 1983. A lot of the bridge's problems are due to it's basic design flaws. I think it will be "under repair" way past 2004. Long-term the state and city have to think of some kind of a replacement for it in the next 20 years.
The Manny B wouldn't be shut down at all if the subway tracks weren't built on the outside of the structure, and if important preventive maintenance hadn't been deferred for so many years.
If structurally possible, it would've been smart to close the outer tracks, construct two tracks in the center of the structure, and make the current North-South side tracks roadways. Build a tunnel under the river to handle the extra traffic not handled by the two new tracks. I strongly favor trains over cars, but the Manny B is overstuffed with truck and commercial traffic taking advantage of its free toll. If this plan could work, it would create two new travel lanes and help solve the problem. And the center tracks would pretty much eliminate the span's current twisting problem.
The outer trackways are the kiss of death for the MB, but in general suspension bridges don't lend themselves well to rail traffic.
There's an even easier solution-
Remove the center roadway. With the current deck and cable layout, the Manny B could perform as a pair of parallel bridges. The center roadway is what twists the opposing sides of the bridge when the trains go over it.
The question is, however, would each independant structure have stability not to sway?
-Hank
Remove the center roadway. With the current deck and cable layout, the Manny B could perform as a pair of parallel bridges. The center roadway is what twists the opposing sides of the bridge when the trains go over it.
That's an interesting idea. Or maybe they could just remove the middle 12 inches of the center lane and fill the gap with some sort of flexible material?
I don't understand all this negative attitude toward the Manhattan Bridge. It was misdesigned originally: the trains on the outside put a lot of twisting force onto the bridge, which is supposed to be fixed by massively stiffening of the bridge deck.
They supposedly fixed the south side of the bridge by stiffening it, and you don't hear any rumors that it is again under too much twisting strain. Do you all think there is a vast conspiracy to hide its defects from the public?
IMO, absolutely. There's gotta be some sort of defect. Maybe one day, the entire bridge will just collapse because it "can't" twist and there's just too much pressure built up. Really though, if they told the public that something was wrong, don't you think that the public will be skeptical (with good reason too) that their tax dollars were wasted?
"if they told the public that something was wrong, don't you think that the public will be skeptical (with good reason too) that their tax dollars were wasted? "
Tax doallrs were not wasted! The bridge will colapes and fall when it does so, but upkeep on it is necessary and will continue to be necessary until it does fall. Not spending money will hasten its fall.
Replacing the bridge or at least the lines with tubes seems to be too major a project to contemplate, yet this too must be done. No loss if cars can't get in, or if trucks must pay at the Battery Tunnel, but the complete loss of transit links would be a disaster much greater than the loss of the Trade Center, though hopefully no where near as many lives will be lost (if any at all, if the bridge is simply closed when the time comes).
Politicians will have to take there heads out of the sand (or wherever) and open the purses for major transit upgrades and extensions. They built all of those @#$% roads on the public purse, the least they can do is to build mor transit quickly andwithout hassles.
Bring back Robert Moses to put the NIMBYs in their place and get on with it already!
I hear your idea; well the Manhattan Bridge is more then likely going to be replaced within the next 50 years. Right now the city is a finical deficit, and the odds that they would not tear down the bridge to replace it with either a cable stayed or suspension bridge that would cost at least $500 million+ would be impossible. The city is saying "this band aid will hold long enough until the deficit then we build a new" The new bridge will be a wider bridge then the current one, so that it could hold 4 subway tracks in its center and have two out lanes on each sides. 2 going towards Manhattan, to going towards Brooklyn, and the upper level will be 4 lanes each direction of traffic. Probably with connections to the F.D.R. Drive as well *which I might as well mention is falling apart*
So don’t expect a new bridge to grade NYC for sometime. I think also NYC got its head together and noticed they were spending big time money, so the faster the bridge is stiffened the less money has to go to the bridge maintenance, and money can go else where.
Well since I won't be around in 50 years I will have to hope some other Sea Beach fans are around to see that my train is back on the bridge, or the new bridge or whatever. Until then I will be fulminating about getting the N train back on the Manny B. You didn't think I was going to relent on this, did you?
"You didn't think I was going to relent on this, did you?"
There is no reason why you should...
The (N) belongs on the MannyB and that is all there is to it.
The (Q), the (N), and the (T) belong on the Manny B
The (QT) and the (RR) belong in the tunnel.
: )
Elias, you are a gentleman and a scholar and now a blood brother. I wish the TA could see it like we can, and I would still like to know why TWO Brightons are on the bridge? It doesn't make sense and it is totally bogus from my (our points) of view.
Right! Put the (D) back on the Culver where it belongs! : )
HEY DONT DO THAT! My D on the brighton forever!
Sorry Chris....
The (D) belongs on the Culver Line!
The (F) can go across to South Fourth Street the way the Grand Poobhas meant for it to go. (If anyone wants to build the tracks for it.) : )
Hey! does anyone else remember that old Hearlad Tribune ad that had the (D) Train above the Gowanus Canal? What was the name of the paper supposed to be. It was never born, but all of the papers that were involved with that folded during the strike.
"..papers....folded during the strike."
No pun intended, I'm sure.:-)
It's worth a rim shot anyway.
Why does the D belong on the Culver line? It only ran there for 13 years. The F has been there for 35. To put it into perspective, the Q ran on 6th Ave for the same amount of time. Does the Q belong there? Hell no.
<>
I agree completely.
Original the plan was to merge three papers -- the Herald Tribune, World Telegram & Sun and Journal American -- into two as far as pooled operations/expences went. The Trib would stay mornings while the WT&S and the JA would be merged into one afternoon paper. But after a strike by some of the unions fearing job losses, the finanical situation was cut back to the point that there was only one paper, a morning hybrid called the World Journal Tribune, published out of the old World Telegram building at West and Vescey streets (across from the WTC site). That paper lasted all of nine months in 1967-68 before dying. The only things that live on in the newspaper world is the Herald Tribune's international editon, which was taken over by the Times and the Washington Post, and the old Journal American building on South Street, which the Post moved into, and which it still uses, even though the editorial offices are at Rockefeller Center now.
Uh, your D currently terminates a borough too soon for that to be an option.
It's only temporary ... sorta like when the Q became an IND line. :)
D belongs on Culver! Bring back the T to West End and the Q, QB, and QT to Brighton :-)
I suppose that you want to send the (N) via Sea Beach too!
Well, at least we will keep ther (RR) on Fourth!
: ) Elias
Amen to that! Those are the lines/letters I grew up with. I'm glad to see SubTalk back!
Fred and Elias:
At the risk of incurring your wrath [(but let's keep this friendly- we're just sub-chatting here :)]
I share your nostalgia for seeing the N over the Manny B- I'm old enough to remember it, though not old enough to have ever known the QT or T (on 11/26/67, Mom was carrying me. She tells me that I kicked a lot).
However, it's been AGES since the N traversed the Manny B. I bet many of the nice folks living in Brooklyn Heights, SoHo, etc., don't know that it ever did. I also bet a lot of people in Bensonhurst and Boro Park LIKE the W.
Therefore, when and if all 4 tracks are opened, I'd suggest the following:
24/7 service on the W from Ditmars to Coney, on its present route.
The B can run on the Sea Beach, from 145th or Bedford Park weekdays, maybe Pacific Street weekends (I think there's less use of the Sea Beach than the West End, so the West End rightly deserves full time connection to Manhattan, without another re-naming)
The N can run weekdays (either all day or rush hour) from Ditmars to Whitehall St.
The D returns to its route and service pattern in effect on 7/21/01.
The Q runs from 57th/7th to Brighton Beach, same as present "Q-diamond". Depending on demand, it can be all day weekdays or rush-hour.
Fred, just wondering, are you concerned with the N being on the bridge or whatever services Sea Beach on the bridge? Let's say that for whatever reaosn, the W and N switch routes. Would you want the N on the bridge or the W (since it now serves Sea Beach) on the bridge?
Aw c'mon, guy ... Unca Fred won't be happy until the train on the SeaBits says "#4" on the bulkhead. :)
Selkirk: That would be nice but it isn't going to happen. However, my favorite letter has always been N, and so I can certainly live with that. If it gets another letter, however, I would be ticked off big time.
Just checking for a pulse, bro. Heh. Welcome back! :)
If it gets another letter, however, I would be ticked off big time.
Fred, How did you feel about the M interloping there after 9/11? At least they are neighbors in the alphabet.......
I tried to put on a happy face when that happened since M is the letter for the Mets, my favorite baseball team. But it was still hard for me to take. The Sea Beach is the N and must remain so.
lalalalalala....lalalalalala....my entire team sucks! thats what Mets stands for.GO YANKEES!! still,i like the M train a little bit.maybe when the bridge is open,the M will get bumped off West End and go to Bay Ridge with the R.I think the people over there need another train besides the R,especially for those at 86th st.The N will go over the bridge,im certain of it,if not,all those in favor of sueing the MTA say "Aye" ....Aye!
I want the N on the bridge. That is the Sea Beach, just as the old BMT#4 was the Sea Beach. Anything else is a fraud. The N is the Sea Beach period. The W is the West End.
Well, over the last couple of weekends, the N has been getting GOs to go over the bridge. It was only in one direction, but still great none-the-less to have an R32 rolled up as "N" over the south side.
I heard that from Steve8AVEXP, but they run only late at night. Still, it is better than nothing and I will try to ride the train over the bridge one night while I'm in town. That will be difficult for me since I am not a night owl. Eatly to bed, early to rise, you know.
Say Fred, you might want to bring someone with you when you do take an N over the bridge. Or go as a group. Just a suggestion.
The GO of the N going over the bridge in one direction isnt just during late nights,its on weekends too.As long as work at Dekalb Ave continues,the MannyB. will see the N late nights and weekends,even if just in 1 direction
Did you hear that, Fred? You may not have to wait until midnight after all.:-)
"The W is the West End."
I thought they'd defined the W by its Northern Terminal, Astoria.
No, no, no. The T is the West End. I don't know why they didn't include a yellow T on roll signs.
The T WAS the West End.
The letter "T" has not been used to denote a West End service (0r anything else) since the late 1960s, and there are no plans to bring the letter back for any service anytime soon. The current main West End service is designated W, with additional service being provided via M trains on weekdays. Railfan wishes aside, that's the way it is and that's the way it will be for a while.
David
That's OK. We came up with a bunch of nicknames for the W last fall and entertained ourselves by rattling them off whenever we saw one.
I take the W train. Oy do i hate it! I'm from bensonhurst so i take the M whenever possible. yet, i bought a W train subway t shirt. go figure. i'm a messed up kid. lol.
The T WAS the West End.
The letter "T" has not been used to denote a West End service (or anything else) since the late 1960s, and there are no plans to bring the letter back for any service anytime soon. The current main West End service is designated W, with additional service being provided via M trains on weekdays. Railfan wishes aside, that's the way it is and that's the way it will be for a while.
David
FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND,the T is suppose to return,to replace the R on Queens Blvd.while the R is suppose to run up 2nd avenue.
Where the hell do you get this.
When both sides of the bridge will open, there will still be a train (the Q) ending at 57th. Guess what will be used on Second Avenue?
I thought they'd defined the W by its Northern Terminal, Astoria.
YEah but then the N is NOT the Sea Beach, it too is "Astoria". I like it the other way, by calling it by Southern route. ANd actually I still consider the B to be the West End.......
"I still consider the B to be the West End....... "
BAH! (B) is aa interloper!
(T) is WEST END!
Then why not for the (W)?
should read "Then why not < N > for the (W)?"
OK guys, you can keep jousting about the W and the T and anything else that comes to mind just so long as the "N" doesn't get involved in it. The N is the Sea Beach and who gives a damn what they call it in Astoria anyway? Astoria is a johnny-come-lately to the N route anyway. What since 1986 or so? Or was it later? The Sea Beach has been around a hell of a lot longer than that. SOOOOOOOOOOO, remember this, the "N" is the SEA BEACH!!!!!!!
Say guys, let's have some alphabet soup for the West End Line and it'll keep Fred :) :) :).
When the West End operates via Broadway to Astoria call it "T",
When the West End operates via 6th Avenue call it the "B",
When the West End operates in Brooklyn only, call it the "W",
that saves the "S" for the Frankie & 42nd Street scoots.
Everybody should be happy on West End, we are B T W and no S,
and Fred keeps his N for the SeaBee.
:) Sparky
See how easy it is to please me? Take a well deserved bow Giovanni
The W only runs to Astoria on weekdays. It always runs on the West End.
Personally I like both, N and W running on the MannyB. I hope TA will keep the W on the the bridge and run with N in Brooklyn in 2004. Would it be nice to have B D on the Northside and N Q W on the southside in 2004. N runs fulltime and W runs only rush hours, midday, and evening; and Q runs the same time as former orange Q.
I assume by W you mean the second Astoria service.
Where would the W go in Brooklyn? If it's a Sea Beach train, it's pretty much the same as having more Ns. If it's a West End train, that makes 3 services for the West End.
I think the W is needed more as a local to Whitehall St., replacing the N which we all hope will be an MB express.
Good to know "we all" hope the Sea Beach will be on the Manhattan Bridge again one day. I"hope" that includes the TA, who just happen to make the decision concerning who goes on the bridge or not.
Bridge Smidge, I have always marveld how slowly those trains creep across the bridge and four to six lions josteling into the DeKalb Avenue plant.
A Tunnel *would* be FASTER, but what the Montaque Tunnel hasl LOCAL STOPS on in, and Brooklynites nor more that those Queens form Queens wont ride on a local if there is an EXPRESS within sniffing distance, no matter how slowly that express runs.
Clearly NEW TUNNELS are needed to replace the bridge (which *is* goint either fall down, or be perserved as a pedestrian and LRV land mark before another 25 years have passed ~ [so sayith I] - )
So sayith you. Well said, I think. However, as long as the bridge is intact the Sea Beach should be a part of it. So sayith I. But I respect your opinion and maybe down the road decades from now we might get one or two new tunnels. But I prefer a new bridge. It looks pleasing to the eye to view the scenery from the vantage point ofa bridge. What the hell do I have to look forward to in the Montague Tunnel except occasionally spotting a rat scurrying from one habitat to another.
"What the hell do I have to look forward to in the Montague Tunnel except occasionally spotting a rat scurrying from one habitat to another."
Take a flashlight with you.
When you find a rat, his eyes will light up. Way Cool!
The (N) belongs on the BRIDGE.
and it is supposed to be an EXPRESS on Broadway!
Let that creature ride in the Tunnel with the (RR)!
"What the hell do I have to look forward to in the Montague Tunnel except occasionally spotting a rat scurrying from one habitat to another."
Take a flashlight with you.
When you find a rat, his eyes will light up. Way Cool!
The (N) belongs on the BRIDGE.
and it is supposed to be an EXPRESS on Broadway!
Let that (W) creature ride in the Tunnel with the (RR)!
I was referring to the posters on this board, who overwhelming responded to a survey earlier this year more or less to the effect that the B and D should go over the north side of the bridge and the N and Q over the south side in 2004.
We'll have to see if the TA agrees with what seems like such complete common sense.
Isn't that how it's supposed to be, anyway? One Brighton and one 4th ave bridge service on both sides?
Maybe, if they wanted, they could run some sort of one-way West End express off Broadway. From 57st to Coney Island, then yard. In the morning, the reverse. It'd be on a similar schedule as the Rock Park A.
It'd be just our luck that maybe DeKalb Tower's laziness would cause this arrangement:
B/D: North side, Stop at DeKalb, Brighton Local and express.
N/Q: South side, DeKalb Bypass/4th ave express. Q West End, N Sea Beach
M/R: Tunnel / Fourth Ave Local / Normal
Ta-Da! DeKalb Tower has nothing to do except watch the trains roll by! Stupid plan? Of course! But the way they seem to like to simplify switching operations, I wouldn't put it past them.
That would be pretty impressively stupid. No access from Brighton line to Broadway in midtown Manhattan. And from Sea Beach or West End to 6th Ave would require 3 trains.
I think the TA understands better than it used to that it has to pay attention to customers. They can't work miracles (like getting more trains onto the QB express track), but they do seem to be trying to do the best they can with the resources and work rules they have.
>>>If it's a Sea Beach train, it's pretty much the same as having more Ns<<
I mean W as part-time Sea Beach Train stopping at N station from 36 to Stillwell.
>>>If it's a West End train, that makes 3 services for the West End.<<
Actually No!, because there is no need to run three train via West End.
>>I think the W is needed more as a local to Whitehall St., replacing the N which we all hope will be an MB express. <<
Here's what I have in mind for Whole MannyB Service in 2004.
B Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Nights] – All stops, 145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; express stops from 59 Street, Manhattan to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge); Rush Hours extended to Bedford Blvd, The Bronx.
[Nights] – BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All stops from 36 Street to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave.
Transfer to N or R at 36 Street for service to/from Manhattan.
D Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Rush Hours] – Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Rush Hours] – Express Stops in The Bronx on trip to Manhattan (AM rush hrs), to The Bronx (PM rush hrs), express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
N Train: Broadway Local
[Middays/Rush Hours] – All stops in Queens and Manhattan, express stops in Brooklyn from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evenings/Nights] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens, through Manhattan, to Coney Island/ Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Weekends] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 57th Street/7th Ave, Manhattan; express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn; all stops in Brooklyn from Dekalb Ave to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island (via South Side Manhattan Bridge). Transfer to R for local service in Manhattan. On weekends nights, N makes all local stops in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn, from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
Q Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM] – Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn, and N or R for service to/from Manhattan.
Transfer between D N and R at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
R Train: Broadway Local
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
(via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights] – All stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
Transfer to E at 42nd St for local service in Queens.
W Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge); All stops from 36th St to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via N).
[Evenings/Nights/Weekends]: No Service; Use N instead.
Increase R service during nite hours from Midnight-6AM
Run the M til 12AM on weekdays
Sounds very reasonable, except that I would contend the W is needed more on Broadway in lower Manhattan than over the bridge to the Sea Beach line. I would terminate it at Whitehall St.
Or Instead of terminate the W in Whitehall. W can run to Stillwell via N through tunnel.
Of course, you can always add more service by lengthening the W. But does the Sea Beach line need more service than the N provides? I don't know personally, but many other postings say traffic there is considerably lower than on the West End, which in turn is lower than Culver, which in turn is far lower than Brighton.
Before 9/11, the N definetly needed more service. Now, for obvious reasons, the service is enough. During rush hours, they are crowded, but not to the point of say, a 7 train. Ns aren't empty either. I would certainly like to see more service because I hate waiting, that's why I time myself so that by the time I get to the station, the train's almost there. I do believe, however, that if the N were to get bridge access, and it being the only one along 4th Avenue to get it (W goes tunnel), service will definetly have to be increased.
Post-2004, there will be the B on 4th Ave going over the bridge as well.
Hmm, good point. Then I guess N service wont need any increses since a lot of people take bridge to chinatown. It will be interesting to see whether Grand street or Canal will get more service; my money's on Canal.
Here is something I posted on The Other side of the Tracks "Why can't the Q..." thread
Message:
"At this point, the planners are looking at all kinds of things, including some that have never been done (at least on a scheduled basis). I don't think anything's been ruled out yet -- if it is physically possible to do, it is in the mix at this point."
Oh, I didn't know they were being that extensive. I know there's alot of other things they could do, such as combining the Q and V, (like it would have been had 63rd St opened first), but since many people have been expecting the Q to return to Broadway and stay, when they do the public survey to help determine what goes where, I'm sure they'll want the Q to stay on Broadway.
Some of the East River Crossings Study plans had the M return to Brighton, and some had it going to 95th, so those are the main two options other than the West End. In either case, it would now be the rush hour only service (while the Q is now fixed as the all weekday service, in reverse of the Chrystie era pattern) If they do that, I could see them replacing the M on the West End by keeping the W, and running it all the way local through the tunnel to Astoria to replace the N which would be completely bridge and express. (This is just the extension of the long proposed Whitehall service.) Or of course, they could just increase B service.
Perhaps they may try actual West End express. Sea Beach express, probably not, since it doesn't pick up enough passengers. Perhaps if it runs express only from Kings Hwy, but that probably still isn't enough.
But the core service pattern of D/Q Brighton, R 95th, B West End, and N Sea Beach I don't see them changing The N, Q and R were in place since 1915-20 (so lettered in 1960), and the B and D fixed since the earliest Chrystie St. plans in the 60's, so that seems to be the universal pattern. I always thought it would be interesting if the Brighton decides it prefers only 6th Av. and the West End would rather have Broadway service, is keeping the W on West End, and sending the B to Brighton Beach. Then you'd have the type of frequent Brighton-6th Av. service you had before, but with a line that belongs on 6th Av. But once again, it seems most people would like the choice between 6th Av. and Broadway.
But I doubt that the Sea Beach would want 6th Av. service for a change, [it was proposed, but only for north side only open, to give them bridge service] or the Brighton want only Broadway service, or any of them have the short Nassau St. trains as a predominant local or express or the only service. Could you see having a 6th Av. line or even Broadway express as the 95th St. service? Since it comes from the bridge, it would have to switch over somewhere.
So from seeing the service patterns so far, and the "policies" that have seemed to have formed (e.g. as less switching as possible; main Brighton and West End services use bridge, etc.) it is hard to believe that the options are not so limited.
As for weekend service, once again, it's hard to picture them doing anything other than the same old B, D, N. R arrangement. It would be nice to have Brighton express, but I don't know if enough people have been asking for it, or if enough people ride to only exp. stops for it. Even though I always hated making the 3 extra stops from Newkirk to Prospect Park, or 5 extra stops from Newkirk to Sheepshead Bay when growing up, it's not as long or as many stops as the Fulton St. line, which finally got weekend exp., and definitely not as many as Queens Blvd. and CPW. As for the M, there is no demand for any Nassau St. service to the south outside of rush hours. What I would like to see them do instead is send it up 6th or 8th Av. from Essex so people on this end who are not right near the L would have direct service to midtown. (Now this is on weekends, when more people are going to midtown than downtown, and it won't interfere with heavy weekday midtown traffic).
Also keep in mind that in 2004, the Stillwell rehab won't be finished, so everything except the West End will still be cut back. This may also limit capacity at the intermediate terminals.
They need to clone Hell Gate Bridge and use it as a subway crossing. You could stack Triplexes four deep on it and it would say, "Is that all?".:-)
I have news for you, in fifty years, the bridge (WHEN and IF it is ever constructed) may very well be for rail traffic only, and guess what?
That's exactly what the Manhattan was constructed for when it opened in January of 1910.
The Manhattan Bridge had 2 pedestrian walks on the outside, 8 rail tracks (4 heavy rail and 4 trolley directly above) and 4 lanes of vehicular traffic in the center, when it opened in 1910. This bridge was never dedicated to rail traffic.
It certainly was NOT designed for the numerous tractor trailers or trucks using the structure today. In 1910, an automobile was a rarity, most of the non-rail traffic was horse drawn. Engineers in 1904-05 could not have forseen the magnitude of heavy vehicular traffic that now traverses the bridge.
In at least the majority of the traffic was designed for rail, however the placement of the tracks at the outer edges left much to be desired.
I have to disagree with you on the subject of the FDR Drive. It's been sufficently rehabbed to the point that buses are now permitted on the full length, and the FDNY retired it's special FDR Response units two years ago.
-Hank
Welcome back everyone !
Chris,
Anyway, it's unlikely that the bridge will be torn down. Especially if it were declared a landmark, which it rightfully is. This is not to say that the subway will always go over the bridge, however. Eventually, a tunnel will probably built to connect the lines.
JDL
Years ago, I remember reading of an idea to place a dam across the East River. The kinky thing is that this would actually *significantly* improve water quality, both in the E River and LI Sound; it would cause greater tidal flushing of the two bodies. It would also generate a significant amount of hydropower. There would be a navigation lock. Since is was being sold as an 'eco-friendly' project, all the usual EPA problems are missing. What makes it salient to this forum is that you could put rail tracks across it: six tracks at Houston St? Anyone heard anything recent about this?
There was also a proposal to change the status of the East River to the extent that high bridges would no longer be necessary. It would essentially become a barge canal. Low bridges are considerably cheaper to build.
When they really do realize the Man and Wil bridges have to be replaced, then they will get creative in what's to be done.
The was one proposal in the 1960's to completely fill in the East River with land fill and build streets, buildings and subway lines.
Completely filling the East River? I doubt it. Ages ago, there was a plan to similarly completely fill Jamaica Bay.
I suspect, however, that there will nonetheless be some major fill projects, if only to accomodate some major infrastructure improvements -- heavy rail lines, subways, expressways, sewer plants, even light rail train yards, and probably, at least partly financed by some super-luxury high rise development.
More likely is a downgrading of its current navigable waterway status, from the current more or less 'open seas' to that of a barge canal (a la the Gowanus canal). Replacement bridges are suddenly (comparatively) cheap, and subway connections on such bridges are also easier and cheaper to do.
I dunno, but I think if you do anything major to change the East River's status and image, it would just make this place seem a little bit less New York. It just wouldnt be the same with a "Barge canal" with low-level swing bridges or something of the like.
Aside from the cost, I can see a couple of major issues:
1. Does commercial shipping still matter to the East River? Probably not, but I'm not sure of the answer.
2. Houston St is not a good place to put tracks across the river. The people originating from Brooklyn and Queens are funneled further south by the existing major lines (Fulton St, Brighton, 4th Ave, IRT).
3. Most dams are pretty narrow on top. You'd need an absolute minimum of 24' to put in even two tracks, and typically the top of dams are less than that. Even Hoover and Glen Canyon dams, which are absolutely massive, are just about wide enough for a 2-lane road.
Dams are wider at their base than at their tops due to water pressure. Of course, if the top was 24' wide, you could concievably tunnel the tracks through it. But a damn is not going to happen.
Since the closure of the Brooklyn Navy Yard, the majority of the traffic on the East River is pleasure boats (including Cirle Line and dinner cruises).
-Hank
One morning last week, and this morning, I got on a 2 train pulling in on the downtown express track at 14th, going express to Chambers. The first time, I didn't think anything of it really, I figured it was running late and they moved it over to the express somewhere uptown. Then, it happened again this morning, and once again, I didn't think much of it, until I saw that it said "CHAMBERS ST NEXT" on the in-car display, um, thingy. (It was a redbird last week.) So anyway, I still didn't think much of it, except that it announced Chambers twice -- once before Franklin, once before Chambers. So, I went about my normal day, then around 3 PM, got back in the system at Chambers, and a 2 pulled in. When the doors opened, the announcements were overridden, and the C/R was emphasizing that the train was making all local stops... hmm... then I saw that it was programmed for the next stop as 14th street.
Are these just odd coincidences, or is this preparation to have the 2 go express again? Velly, velly odd...
Nothing odd about it. The R-142's can be programmed on-the-fly to announce all local stops or to announce only express stops. Apparently you were on a train that was malprogrammed.
(Did you really think the programs were reworked for the emergency change in September? Why, then, weren't the transfers updated to include at least the 7/22 changes?)
On the R142s that is going over to the 5, they have. IDK when they are going to work on the 2 line.
Well some 2 trains do run express, especially during rush hours. Its strange. Concider yourself lucky, tevi.
Christopher Rivera
MidnightDragon
Rush hours -- and middays -- and Sunday afternoons -- and early Sunday mornings. I've seen 'em all. I don't think anyone has any idea how much service the local stations actually get, since all 1's and 2's are scheduled to run local but the reality is at the whims (and whims they often are!) of Times Square tower. Some day when I have an hour to kill, I'll hang out at Times Square from 5 to 6 and take a count.
Manhattan: the forgotten borough.
I was on an R62A (2) train a few months ago from 14th St that ran express at least to Penn Station. The trick was that it had been a (3), and had turned arround at 14th. I even got to see them change the rollsign.
:-) Andrew
That must have been one of those 3 trains to the Bronx, resigned as a 2 to reduce confusion. Not a bad idea.
nnn
uh ..........U know the elevated sections where the 5 & 2 split off
i think 18oth street & yards U know ............
did they FIX the CENTER TRACKS as of yet & does the #2 run on the
center express on its way to the end of the north #2 line ???
are the center contruction boards still up ???
hope someboby out dere' knows what i am talkin' bout' ???
lol !!
The 2 is never scheduled to run express in the Bronx.
The 5 is, during rush hours, between E180 and 149-3, SB in the morning and NB in the afternoon.
There is no regularly scheduled express service north of E180, but weekend GO's are common.
question : from bronx park to 241 st street
which if i remember was north of 180 street where if also
i remember the 5 & 2 split off .........but.......
however i wanted to know if north of there where the ....
3 track formats ...
is there any express there on those sets of tracks ( 2 )
it being worked on ( fall 2000 ) ..........
anyway if those of you who ar still there could fill me in
i would be grateful hope i got it right this time !!!
please excuse my typo errors ........thankz
The 5 Super Express uses those express tracks every morning and night.
the one in the center north of the 180 station right ?
"the one in the center north of the 180 station right ?"
As stated in a previous reply, that track is not used for regular service. The 5 runs express south of 180th only.
oh no i am sorry if you misunderstood me ... I know about the north
#5...etc.. it was the north #2- 3 track section(s) i was talking about
after station 180 the 2 has 3 tracks but the center has those boards
you know ( construction )...so the 2 goes local all the way north....
& back, i saw it in 1999 & 2000 only .... the #2 ......north
sorry !!! ( smile ) ...
I don't know if there's ever been scheduled express service north of E180. The middle track is occasionally used for GO's.
Check the 1959 and 1965 maps on this site...the train was known as the Lexington Avenue Thru Express. It stopped at 241, Gun Hill, E 180 and 149/3 Av.
I stand corrected, then.
I noticed that Subtalk was back and when I downloaded the program it said "Welcome Back Sea Beach Fred." Well all I can say is that the pleasure is all mine. It is great to be back and let's pledge to keep things in a civil state so we don't get driven off again. And was that on the Sea Beach line that that new brand new train was running as our new banner? I think so. Good show of class Dave.
Downloaded what? And what banner?
Nevermind, I think I got it.
I noticed that Subtalk was back and when I downloaded the program it said "Welcome Back Sea Beach Fred."
I think it says that for everyone, but it always said that even before the hiatus. It would say, "Welcome back GP38!, your last visit began......." But I know what you are saying....It's great to be back, and was great to see that phrase........
Today instead of taking my usual routhe in the 4 home from work, I decided to take the R. When I got to Canal street I walked downstairs to the Q and when I reached the platform area it just stunk to the high heavens. Does anyone else notice this smell and does anyone know what it is?
BTW:It's nice to have you back Dave
Well since the Canal street bridge station is beneath Canal street, there are fish markets that dump fishy water down onto the sidewalk where it could go down into a subway grate, possibly causing the smell.
It seems to get worse in summer, well fishy water does stink.
Grand street can also have a similar smell, and so can Main street on the 7, because there are alot of fish markets in the area.
Again welcome back everyone!
>>>Grand street can also have a similar smell, and so can Main street on the 7, because there are alot of fish markets in the area. <<<
The more things change . . . etc.,
Peace,
ANDEE
It could also be the stench emenating from Shea Stadium, given the way the Mets have been playing lately.:-(
i remember one time i came back to main st. from the <7>, and it was a really hot, summer day. jeez, the fishys smelled like spoiled fishys. i even saw some water leaking on a poor redbird...heh...it's gonna smell like fishys
That station always had a bad stench. It seemed to be worse when it was abandoned due to the Man. Bridge work. I thought it would go away when they reopened the station, but it is still there. There also weems to be constant water dripping there also.....but of course it is "Canal" Street.
Today instead of taking my usual routhe in the 4 home from work, I decided to take the R. When I got to Canal street I walked downstairs to the Q and when I reached the platform area it just stunk to the high heavens. Does anyone else notice this smell and does anyone know what it is?
Give the 4 another try and take a whiff at Union Square. It's been smelling fishy for the past couple of weeks.
Mark
I've always noticed the express station at 59th/Lex to have a particularly offensive odor, but I've never been able to figure out what it is. Any guesses?
Dan
I know the odor at 59th/Lex lower level but I don't mind it at all, it's smells like a musty chocolate.
Perhaps there's a big chocolate store near one of the tunnel vents.
I've always noticed the express station at 59th/Lex to have a particularly offensive odor, but I've never been able to figure out what it is. Any guesses?
I bet it's got something to do with the slime growing at the south end of the downtown platform.
Mark
Speaking of smells, did anyone hear about the hole in the wall in the Times Sq termina lfor the 7 train a while back? There was a hole in the middle of the platform where "stuff" leaked out. That "stuff" *ahem* was leaking from the bathrooms above the terminal and came out the wall and onto the 7 tracks.
Yeah I remember hearing about that a few months ago, which explains why the 7 level of Times Square always smells like a public restroom. It hasn't stopped me from using the station though, because if you board at 5av or Grand Central the railfan window might be taken.
And with the R62A's coming in the window will be gone, at least on Main street bound trips. Actually it hasn't been that hot lately, and in this temperate 60 degree weather the R33 singles "fan cars" are quite comfortable. The air quality aint bad in there, doesn't have that musty subway A/C smell.
Call me crazy but there's something I like about those R33 singles, the sound of the fans is relaxing.
I noticed it too. Before the bridge opened up, I never smelled it. But I hope it still retain's it's cool-in-the-summer feature.
After all of this time, it's great to have SubTalk back!
If this message goes through, all I want to say is that it's good to be back on board. Especially since in the two months the talks have been down I've been neck deep in work (now I know what being an editor - in - chief feels like!)
Oh, and one more thing: As of 6/3/02, 1300 hrs, I will be considered an MTA employee (well, a college summer intern anyway), with hopefully a pass with those nice little photos on the back. So wish me luck!
The No.6 Line is now 96% R142A's. 7591-7600 came into service 2 weeks ago and as of this week 7621-30 and 7631-40 came into service.
7641-50 are at Unionport and should be going into service in 2 weeks. As most of you know 7641-50 will mark the last set to go to the No.6 Line and the No.4 Line is next in line. I know the No.4 Line run a lot of Redbirds during the week day so enjoy them before there gone. The R142's are going in service at a rate of 2 sets every 2 weeks.
Good Report.
A number of sidelined R-142s are coming out of hibernation after 12+ months and are entering service, a group of which appear to be going to the 5. There haven't been any new deliveries in quite a while.
-Stef
Which ones are coming back? If I remeber there were about 45 cars laid up in the concourse yard. And 20 laid up in lenox yard.
Some cars slated for service:
At East 180th St/239th St Yards---
6361-70
6371-80
6386-90
6391-6400
6401-10
6436-40
6461-65
6486-90
At Concourse Yard---
6441-45, 6491-6500
If I missed any, please help out!
The cars at the East started testing for #5 Service, such as 6366-70 and 6376-80, 6371-75 and 6386-90.
-Stef
6481-85 was hooked up to 6461-65 last week.
?
I thought it was 6461-65 and 6486-90. That's alright. I'm glad to see the black aces coming out of the woodwork....
-Stef
So it looks like they got more than 400 cars. Do they really need that many subway cars? The two and the five don't even need that many.
Most of the Redbirds are dying of cancer. Time to replace them.
Take a look at the headways #6 trains have to make up during the AM rush, and the needed cars in reserve, and you will see why more than 400 cars are needed.
I wish the TA would do whatever needs to be done in regard to those canned announcements. At 51st/Lex announcing "transfer availiable for the E and F" is slightly outdated! Yes, conductors are required to override that female voice and make a live, updated, accurate announcement, but the TA's had 5 months to update it on the data base................P.S. I have a new Email address.
Bill, I've offered to do the updates for free. I'll even throw in a current temperature "upstairs."
And that's Transit and Weather Together!
I think your voice would sound a lot better than those 2 voices now used. Especially the guy, he talks like a drill sargent!
Maybe he was just trying to impress the former administration. :)
I like how the guy always tells my riders "Ladies and Gentlemen For YOUR SAFETY please do not HOLD car doors open while the train is in the station."
Forget about the December changes -- we're still waiting for the July and September changes.
I rode on 7601-7610 in the AM rush on...Monday morning I think.
wait i think it was 7611-7620...yeah that was it.
The last 10 car set (7641-7650) made its way from Unionport to Westchester yard. It only a matter of at least no more then 4 weeks will the No.6 Line be 100% R142A's.
Finally over 3 months without subtalk its great to be back business again I hope these kind of situation won't happen again in the future.
Welcome back all members!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you Dave for bringing SubTalk back Online, I like Subtalk a little better than nycrail.com message board because I get my post answered within minutes.
Actually, There are advantages to having two boards, and I like each one in it's own way.
I have to agree with you GP38.
2 homes is better than 1 ;)
>>>I get my post answered within minutes. <<<
Aprox. 154 minutes in this case . . . 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
On our way back from our railfan trip riding random subway lines, we took NJT back to Metuchen, my home station. As we were pulling out, I noticed what looked like to be an old coach car (behind a long-distance AMTRAK train) but the body was painted with dark blue and the yellow CSX letters on the bottom of the windows.
I think it was attached behind an Amtrak Cafe car #25089.
1) Can anyone tell me what that CSX coach car was doing behind that train?
2) Why does AMTRAK have 5 digit car #'s?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You
Most times strange cars like that on an AMTK train are privately owned varnish, painted in whatever colors and numbers that the current owners like. (Kinda like a 1:1 scale model train).
As long as it is a steel car, and its inspections are current, AMTK will pull it around for you. (At a Pr$ce). They will also always be at the end of the train.
Elias
A PC-2 Amtrak inspection can set you back $ 75 thousand dollars.
Well, if a guy wants to own one of these things and has enough mone to have AMTK pull it around for you, then he has more money than he needs or knows what to do with anyway, so that will be no big deal to him. Besides, I don't thisnk that it has to be an Amtrak inspection, but only current inspection by a proper railroad or maintenance outfit such as MK or something.
What is the significance of the old MARC trains? I see them rarely on AMTRAK trains and the most I saw was 4 attached in a row in the front of the train.
Amtrak has been known to deadhead a whole train of CSX Office Cars along the NEC.
Again Dave, thanks for making this forum possible.
Jim K.
Chicago
Today after i finish doing Operation Plannings at Jackie Gleason Depot & i notice that R30 #8488 is no longer at 36th St Yard. So i went by at SBK Yard to take few pictures & saw R30 #8488 right next to Q train. Took few pictures of R30 #8488 & R33 #9306 oop it not really R33 #9306 is Ex R21 #7261.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
This is a good indication that not every car is off to the reef. Apparently, there are exceptions. Old fashioned scrapping still exists?
-Stef
First off, It's great to be back!
Second, now there are at least 4 sets of R62A's on the (7). They look great! Now I can ride my favorite line without sweating to death. And what a gorgeous rollsign. That thing seems to proudly announce the (7) to the world.
:-) Andrew
It sure does! Though, as usual, it seems like Corona isn't running all 4 sets at the same time...
rail-fan window .........??........lol !!!
Yes, in one direction. Manhattan-bound, IIRC.
wish the r-62s would not appear on the #7 until all of the redbirds
"R" gone !!!!!!!!!
then bring em in >>>>>>>all r-62s !!!!!!
& ...@ - railfan window on BOTH ends !!!!!!!!!!!
I know you'll miss the railfan window, but what can you do...
It would make no sense getting rid of all of the redbirds, then bringing in all the R62A's. It should be gradual, starting to get ride of the worst redbirds on the 7. They should go, anyway. They are really starting to deteriorate.
oh well they will outlast the R-142S
in the years of operation.........
It is nice having the R62A's on the 7, though lately I haven't been getting them. I'll really appreciate them when the weather gets hot, but I'll always have a place in my heart for the Redbirds. Even the R33 non/AC singles, the sound of those fans and the rumbing is relaxing.
It still must've been something to ride the Rockaway line in the days before A/C, that sea breeze blowing in and the fans.
Hey, QTraindash, do you still have those pics of the premiere or what? They were awsesome and I'd like to see them again to relive the moment!
If the Redbirds can hold out for five more months, I'll be able to say Hello Redbirds one last time.
Steve:
You'll be able to say Hello Redbirds!!!! Trust me.......
I believe it.
>>It still must've been something to ride the Rockaway line in the days before A/C, that sea breeze blowing in and the fans<<
Those dinky R-10 fans did little to move air in the hot summer. If all windows were opened, the sea breeze would suffice while dashing along the flats.
Bill "Newkirk"
yea kiss your railfan window >>>>>>>>>NOT SO GOOD BYE...!!!
There are 5 sets of redbirds on the 7; the easiest way to distinguish them is the numbers of the 5 car sets. 1681-1705 no gaps, plus about 30 singles.
Whoops! I meant R-62s, not redbirds. I'm a little rusty at this, out of pratice.
Whoops! I meant R-62s, not redbirds.
You actually meant R-62A's, but who's counting.
I'm a little rusty at this, out of pratice.
The Redbirds are also a little rusty, but they're out there practicing every day.
I was way too lazy to add that A when I posted (waited in line forever to return my textbooks about 10 minutes before I posted).
Plus in this context I felt the A was an irrelevent addition, since car numbers were provided.
But who's adding?
I was way too lazy to add that A when I posted (waited in line forever to return my textbooks about 10 minutes before I posted).
What keyboard are you using? Remind me to stay away from it if typing one letter is an undue hassle.
Plus in this context I felt the A was an irrelevent addition, since car numbers were provided.
My brain refuses to memorize numbers unless I make an extreme effort. I'm sure at least a few other SubTalkers have yet to memorize which car numbers are R-62's and which are R-62A's!
But who's adding?
Not you, I see. But I was on Division Street yesterday, if that'll do.
I'm sure at least a few other SubTalkers have yet to memorize which car numbers are R-62's and which are R-62A's!
Hey, I've got a long way to go with memorizing what cars are what numbers. My knowledge of that ends with the R27-30's started with an 8 and the R16's started with a 6 I think. Am I stuck in the 80's? Probabably. I rode the subway the most when I was in high school in the late 80's and college in the early 90's. Then I could do it for fun also, besides just using it for work. I wish I had the time now to ride more often. There are some lines I haven't ridden since the early to mid 90's.
The R-62s are assigned exclusively to the 4. They're numbered from 1301 to 1650, IIRC.
Nope. R62 cars are between 1301 and 1625.
Chaohwa
You knew what I was talking about, didn't you? Fine, I'll tack on the A from here on, all this nitpicking has ended up costing me a lot more keystrokes than necessary.
What keyboard are you using? Remind me to stay away from it if typing one letter is an undue hassle.
Raise your hand if you think this is an unfair hostile criticization over nothing.
Raise your hand if you think it was intended in jest.
My apologies if it wasn't taken that way.
this new version of bahn is very different- it has bussed, boats, and curved platforms (it even has slip switches!!!!!), new rail only
(you can make your own cars with caredi(a beta test thing))
Its good to be back!
where can i get the new bahn thingy?
"where can i get the new bahn thingy?"
http://www.jbss.de/hpg_eng.htm
Cleanairbus from the Bronx is back...I look forward to posting regularly or every other day from now on...
Carlton
you know, I can't access any of the photo galleries on your page!!
It's been awhile since I used it last... Anyways, thank goodness for reverse threaded message listings!
-Robert King
I was afraid I'd forgotten mine, but I guess my memory isn't totally shot :)
If you still have the old ".nycsubway.org" cookie, the password was in plain text. I had forgotten mine, but there it was. :)
I'm on from a computer lab terminal away from home and the cookies don't stay very long so I was doing a crap shoot on my password entirely from my [not-very-good] memory... I don't know if the cookie on any of the home computers still exists - I'll have to check on that tomorrow.
-Robert King
Why? Looks like you already have it. :)
The cookie is still here. I was just wondering if it would be, that's all.
-Robert King
Depends on the browser. If it's Ayiee, then it would be in the cookies folder as (yourname)@nycsubway.org, if it's AOLscape, then it would be an entry in cookies.txt that you'd have to edit. Since this would be a read-only operation, no edit but you should see it within the text of the cookie. The password was not encrypted.
...mmmmmmm....cooookie.......
actually, i never cleaned out my cookies(except for spyware) since the site was down. i guess i had faith it would make a triumphant return (which it did)
If you still have the old ".nycsubway.org" cookie
Let's see, I went from Win2000 to WinXPee, back to Win2000, and now I'm typing this from Mandrake Linux 8.2 I installed on a seperate hard drive. I'm pretty sure that cookie is gone :-). Good thing I remembered it.
Damned penguins have the memory of an elephant. Heh. Good choice on the OS, it's what we use here for our "real" computers.
testing...dunno if I remembered it
Just tested the password myself.
Unfortunately for all of you, it works. BWAHAHAHA.
Pull the cord! Pull the cord! BUZZZZzzzzzzzzzz! :)
I left my cookies in place, as I had faith that the "temporary hiatus" was just that - temporary. And my faith was rewarded.
I still stop in Harry's Place, but SubTalk is home - even in Baltimore. Many friendships were started here.
A contribution is in the works.
Hardcore Foaming at subtalk back again. Lets make it like it was before..remember the days of the "old school" Its nice to see everyone back...all the personalities of subtalk that we have come to know and love.
ANyways. What was the Deal with the West Side IRT this morning around 10-1045hrs? I heard something on TV saying that there were no 3 Trains at all then service resumed..I caught a 3 train uptown from 14st and we were inching along as slow as the locals. Anyone can fill me in on the situation? I know there was a person under on the West side but that was i nthe afternoon wasnt it?
Seven, you're insane. Poor you, you have to take that blasted 1-2-3 to work now don't cha? At least you can go to freedom tunnel for lunch...
And I just imagine the delays caused by all that foam. :-)
AT least there aint no Railfan foam down at the freedom tunnel only ckrachead foam, and that has been known as a wheel lubricant saving Amtrak Hundreds of thousands of dollars on wheel lubricants just by running trains through that tunnel
My thankz to the webmaster & many who keep us up 2 date
( weither we "R' in agreement or not )
& since i am on my way there this late summer @ ( in person )
I really need this and other rail transit boards to keep me
up to speed as to whats going on where to shoot railfan videos
& digital stills on ( not just the NYC subway system )
from a warm windy DRY afternoon in NW pasadena Ca. thankz again
big time !!! salaamallah asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
( smile ).....lol !!!
I received a flyer today about the excursion. It seems the train is slated to travel on the 207th St Flyover. I'd guess the train will go down into the yard and back up onto the mainline. It should be interesting.
If I could get myself out of bed on Sunday Morning, maybe I'll be lurking around the platforms.....
-Stef
I wonder what singles from the 7 will be used? It'll be interesting to see on 5/26. And how do the cars get from the 7 to the S at 42 St?
#9327 7 Flushing Local
I thought they were going to be using those, unless I'm mistaken.
If that's the case, you can do a lot with cars that have dual trip cocks. The Flushing Singles can transverse both Divisions with little difficulty.
-Stef
Also, this is said (by the flyer) to be the first time an excursion will travel by the 207th St Flyover.
I've always wanted to see an interdivisional trip held (and be a part of it). Wouldn't that be great?!?
-Stef
What I have heard about the Redbirds for the Memorial Weekend Excursion is that they will be prepared for dumping right after the trip is over...
...aren't they mainline #7 cars?
BMTman
Doug: If what you say is true this could be the best Redbird fantrip yet. Not only will we get a tour of the IRT but then our Redbird train will be loaded on a barge with the railfans in it and we'll take an ocean cruise. Maybe Fred will come along with us and really put the "sea" into Sea Beach.
Best Wishes, Larry
RedbirdR33
You'd better get scuba gear if you're going for a dive with the fishies..........
-Stef
Yeah, either way he'll end up Seeing the Beach...get it...
So...when are ya gonna head up with us to work on "our" Redbird...6688?
BMTman
Are you sure those aren't one-way tickets?:-)
Only Fred's because he paid in cash < G >
I *must* get a waterproof cover for my videocamera :)
--Mark
Can you do me a copy of the video ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Yeah me too! I am not attending the festivities unfortunately, but I do expect to see a young man with a video camera in his hand peering out of the railfan window.......... What do you say Mark (Feinman)?
-Stef
I would love to go on the trip but I cannot get over till November. Mark's videos are the next best thing. I just hope he can force his way through to the railfan window.
Simon
Swindon UK
I've heard that our friend Salmonella has given him some tips.
Mr rt :^)
Ha ha ha ha ha ... no, no tips from Salmonella, as you state :)
Hopefully a little area at the railfan window will be left for me to place a videocamera through. I will be attending most of the CERA activities that weekend.
I hope I'll be able to put my SCUBA gear in one of the unused cabs for the final Redbird trip :)
--Mark
Mark, may I offer some hints to guarentee a place at the railfan window.
1) Several plates of beans the night before.
2) A garlic laden Chicken Korma also the night before.
3) Dress in your SCUBA gear. Not recommended after 1 above.
Best of luck and enjoy the trip.
See you in November ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Ha ha ha ha ha .....
1 & 2 are feasible; it might be difficult to get around though if I put the SCUBA gear on too soon :)
Yes, I'll be there in November ... as soon as you have an idea of when you'll be crossing the "pond", let me know.
--Mark
You mean like standing the tunnel side of the storm door ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Stef, I accept yours and Simon's challenge :)
--Mark
Do you know any more about the itinerary? Also, has anyone here gotten their tix yet???
Also, why go into 207th Street yard anyway?
On previous years Subdivision C on its excursions have taken us on
yard trackage and non~revenue sections. The Redbird trip of 2000,
we looped thru Jamaica Yard & encircled 36th Street in Brooklyn.
The 'D' type in 2001 took us to the "Docks" and other SBK
non-electrified trackage. They try and do something diverse
each year.
For tickets for this year's excursions call: 347-643-5310.
:)Sparky
On previous years Subdivision C on its excursions have taken us on
yard trackage and non~revenue sections. The Redbird trip of 2000,
we looped thru Jamaica Yard & encircled 36th Street in Brooklyn.
The 'D' type in 2001 took us to the "Docks" and other SBK
non-electrified trackage. They try and do something diverse
each year.
For tickets for this year's excursions call: 347-643-5310.
Also remember the benefactor of your contribution for the Excursions
is the "March of Dimes".
:)Sparky
I called them a few weeks ago and sent in the order form for my tickets. Have you gotten yours if you are going?
Got mine today, see you there!
Don't know too much about the itinerary outside of what is being advertised on the flyer that I received. Tix? No clue on this. I can't make it unfortunately, since I'm working that afternoon.
Why 207th St Yard (assuming it actually goes down there)? It's something out of the ordinary to do. The Yard is very much IRT as it is IND, as cars go in for repairs. Use the loop and come back up to the mainline.
-Stef
In the roster of preserved NY rapid transit cars on this site (http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/musroster.html), right near the bottom Manhattan Elevated car #782 is said to have been at the Gettysburg Railroad but that it isn't there anymore. Does anyone have any information on this car? I'm not only interested in where it is now, but when was it at Gettysburg? Why was GRR even interested in it? What condition was it in? Thanks in advance!
Frank Hicks
P.S. Great to have Subtalk back!
Frank:
Nice to see you back here. How's everything going out at IRM? Unfortunately, I haven't been there in months due to: A) My Saturn dying, B) My dead Saturn being replaced by an unreliable gas-guzzler, C) Winter, D) Lack of time due to church and social activities, and E) Lack of gas money due to unemployment since mid-March.
Since I don't really have anyway to contact anybody in the Electric Car Department (aside from you), I feel sort of bad that I disappeared off the face of the earth one day and left everybody hanging. I really do need to get back in the habit of going out there again. (I have, however, promised to take my new lady friend out there sooner or later.)
Be sure to give everybody out there -- especially Pete and Bob -- my regards! I hope to be back out there on a regular basis soon.
-- David
Chicago, IL
David:
Good to hear from you! IRM is still standing, nothing very drastic has changed. Plenty of work going on in the Car Shop, though, and we're hoping to have a couple of new cars running this year or next. You should see the progress on CA&E 308! Anyway, I'll see you out there when you get a chance.
Frank Hicks
Say, how's Old Pullman 460 doing these days? That's one of the cars CTA turned over to IRM a few years back. I saw it back in 1996 and it looked as though it still had the same paint from 1954. Does it even run?
I take it Green Hornet 4391 is doing well.
"Old Pullman" 460 is doing okay. We've never gotten it operating, not because it's in bad shape but because we've got another one (144) that runs and if we were to operate 460 we'd have to replace its street wheels with AAR wheels. I think it still does wear the paint it was given by CTA in the 1950's, but a cosmetic restoration is being done on it. The roof and underbody of 460 have been repainted, as have the cream areas and some of the windows. And, "Green Hornet" 4391 is still soldiering on, operating on some of our special event days.
Frank Hicks
One of my objectives is to be at IRM when 4391 is running (signed up for route 36 or 22). And for that matter the 4000s on the mainline. When I was there, they had an interurban (Illinois Traction or similar) on the mainline and Matchbox streetcar 1374 on the loop. I had read about what it took to restore 1374, so it was interesting to ride on it.
Do any of the Big Orange South Shore cars run?
You may have been at IRM on a weekday, or a weekend during April, May or October. During those light-traffic days, we generally run Illinois Terminal 415 on the mainline and a Chicago streetcar (these days it's 3142, not 1374) on the streetcar line. If you're able to make it out during a weekend between Memorial Day and Labor Day, we'll definitely have more equipment out - almost certainly a train of 4000's, and if you're there on any sort of special event day (see our calendar at www.irm.org) probably the 4391 too.
The South Shore cars haven't operated in a little while, and probably won't be running in the near future either. One car (34) is operational, however our overhead wire is in bad shape and the chances of the Line Dept fixing it soon are not good. Cars with poles run okay, but anything with pans is in danger of the pans getting ripped off the roof (we've already done this to our IC MU cars twice). The guy who is the 34's "mother" has put a moratorium on running the car until the overhead is fixed, fearing damage to the 34's pans.
Frank Hicks
I was there on Monday, July 8, 1996, to be exact. 4391 was signed up for the 8/Halsted route. It seems they've got a bunch of 6000s; I must have counted five pairs of cars.
I'd also love to ride on the Electroliner someday.
IRM has nine 6000 series cars, but a third of them have arrived since 1996. Married-pair sets include 6125-6126 (arrived c1982), 6461-6462 (arr. c1985), and 6655-6656 (arr. 1993). Single-unit cars are 22 (arr. 2000), 30 and 41 (both arr. 1998). We also have 2000-series cars 2153-2154, which arrived in 1993. Of all these Spam Cans, 22, 30, 41, 6655-6656 operate (but only occasionally - they're real juice hogs). And, it may be a while before you get to ride the 'Liner. There are a couple of guys working their butts off on it, but between replacing rot in the carlines at one end, reupholstering the seats and raising money to rebuild traction motors, they've got their work cut out for them. One way to keep up with major progress on the 'Liner is to keep an eye on the North Shore Line webboard at www.northshoreline.com (not to be promoting the competition or anything!).
Frank Hicks
Frank, I wrote to the webmaster some months ago about this very car, and I guess that he has not gotten around to updating the roster yet. I deleted the eMail so all of this is what I can remember of what I wrote.
Car #782 is the property of Sloan Cornell, the former owner and operator of the Gettysburg Railroad. He apparently brought it with him when he started the G-Burg RR in 1976. He sold the RR several years ago and took the car, and other rolling stock with him when he left. He is now operating the Knox & Kane RR in northwestern PA. The car is supposedly stored, under cover in Marienville PA (just off Route 66), on the K & K RR. It can be seen by appointment, according to a relative still living here in G-Burg.
I understand from others that Sloan used the car for tourist train service in the late 1970's for several years. I have lived here for 45 years, never saw the car, or knew what it was until after it was gone. I know that this is rather sketchy, but hope that it helps!
Karl B
>I know that this is rather sketchy, but hope that it helps!
Very much so - thanks!
Frank Hicks
Wow, thanks to Karl B. for jarring my memory! IIRC, 782 is best
described as a box on wheels that used to be a Manhattan gate car.
I think all of the apparatus has been removed and it is basically
a coach with knuckle couplers. I also heard that the interior was
replaced. I'm somewhat fuzzy, but I remember we talked about this
car as one of the ones "out there" that we'd potentially be interested
in, and the conclusion was there wasn't enough original material left
to be worth it.
Jeff, I seem to recall reading an article in an old Electric Lines a few years ago that stated that the car now rode on railroad freight car trucks and had knuckle couplers. All of the end platform hardware had been removed, and the seats had come from an old bus. The article seemed to infer that there was very little left of the car decor except for the interior wood trim, and the number. Unfortunately, I read this article after the car had departed G-Burg.
Hey Karl, speaking of Gettysburg, May 10 marked 30 years since my visit there with my high school band. It doesn't seem that long ago.
If you haven't been here in thirty years, you ought to get back, and see all of the changes that have taken place.
IRT 782 isn't here anymore, but it hadn't arrived here yet when you were here thirty years ago.
Welcome Back Dave and Fellow subtalkers Subtalk/Bustalk were missed.
Welcome back Dave good to see a lot of names of board friends
Hey, welcome back everyone and THANK YOU, DAVE!!! I really missed SubTalk. It was very frustrating because the day I realized it was off-line was when I just came home from my first operating lesson at Branford and wanted to tell everyone about it. Well I'm happy to say I passed with flying colors and after 2 more apprentice sessions I will be a full-fledged volunteer motorman!!! I had my first apprentice session a couple of weeks ago and found the hardest part was giving the barn tour!!!
I also decided that because of the many great hours I've had on SubTalk I did contribute with the Amazon thing. I couldn't give alot as money's tight now but I plan on giving more in the future.
Again:
Thank You Dave!!!
Sarge,
>>>I had my first apprentice session a couple of weeks ago and found the hardest part was giving the barn tour!!!<<<
Being the docent will be your most difficult requisite of being an
operator at Branford. Public speaking was never one of my virtues,
18 years ago, when I qualified. But with time, it becomes second
nature, and remember we do it from the heart, we're not preprogramned clones as at the Theme Parks. Even if you make a mistake, don't get disparaged. Now it's second nature to me. I now have another trained to Dispatch, so I can docent without radio interference.
Looking forward to seeing you on the Railway soon.
:) Sparky
PS~Dave welcome back!
Jeff, A bunch of your friends will be there this week-end. I'll either be a mutual friend of ours "Pilot" or be working on 6688.
Forcast is rain thru most of the morning, so probably the 6688 work will have to wait. Have to look at my cheat sheet to get my facts streight for the tours.
Mr rt :^)
Time to cue up the Welcome Back Kotter theme.:-)
Good! Then we get to see a graffiti-covered, blue-doored R-32 running above New Utrecht Avenue- and a 1970 GM Fishbowl running on the B9.
By the mid-70s, those blue doors on the R-32s had been painted silver.
Does anyone know anything about the status of Trolleyville USA? Their website has gone away and the url is inactive.
The last thing I had heard, the trailer park it is in has been sold and they have 5 years to find a new site and move.
They have a great collection and it would be a shame to lose it.
Trolleyville is still alive and kicking, although AFAIK their 5-year eviction notice is still in effect. I know they are holding a special event this summer to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Chicago Aurora & Elgin. They've also been acquiring new equipment from Cleveland RTA, which is an odd thing to do if you're about to find yourself without a home. (???) Anyway, I would guess that the equipment will find a pretty good home one way or another. The collection will probably stay largely intact - they've got several offers of places to relocate to, most of them at sites that are probably better than their current one (although the new sites probably don't have storage barns). And, if they can't find a new home, there are several trolley museums anxiously waiting in the wings to buy the collection. And, no, for the life of me I can't think of any way to tie this in with the NYC subway system. :-D
Frank Hicks
What equipment does the RTA have that museums would be interested in?
-Robert King
oh, an active pre PCC streetcar occasionally on display, examples of the earlier classes of Rapid cars in the lovely Blue paint scheme,
Any idea why their website was eliminated? Also, they seem to have killed their newsletter as well. I am also the Editor of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum's newsletter, The Live Wire and we get exchange publications from other museums. We haven't gotten one from Trolleyville for quite a while.
Cut yourself off from the world and the rail museum fraternity and nobody knows what's going on.
>Any idea why their website was eliminated? Also, they seem to have
>killed their newsletter as well. I am also the Editor of the
>Baltimore Streetcar Museum's newsletter, The Live Wire and we get
>exchange publications from other museums. We haven't gotten one from
>Trolleyville for quite a while.
>Cut yourself off from the world and the rail museum fraternity and
>nobody knows what's going on.
I wonder if that might be the idea. News from Trolleyville is very hard to come by these days, from any source. At this point pretty much everything is up in the air, and my guess is that Trolleyville is looking at a number of offers to relocate. They may want to make this decision with as little external input as possible, and when they've made their choice just present it as the final decision. They probably don't want people calling them up and saying "Hey, I heard you were doing such-and-such - what a stupid idea!"
BTW, as for the equipment they have supposedly acquired from the RTA (again, the details of this are unconfirmed - if anyone has been to Olmsted Falls recently perhaps they can elaborate), it was supposed to include a couple of Shaker PCC's, one or two Airporters, and a couple of Bluebirds. I don't think the center-entrance car was included - I think that might be going somewhere else.
Frank Hicks
Frank, I was at Olmsted in August (oddly enough on my way back
from IRM). The general manager there told us basically what you
said: they had several offers for sites. He didn't go into specifics,
obviously. They were talking about merging with NORM but that seems
highly unlikely for personality reasons. This guy (I think his name
was Cliff) was insistent that the entire collection would remain
intact and move with them. I think there may eventually be a reality
check, but for now they are swatting away the circling vultures
(including a certain GM from a certain midwest railway museum who
has been known to stop by).
I'm sure the guy you talked to is the GM (?) of Trolleyville, Cliff Perry. He's a little goofy, and has some pretty weird ideas about Trolleyville. At one point I heard rumors (rumors, mind you) that he had an offer out to sell the Trolleyville collection, but only if it stayed intact - and only if he were retained by the buyer as GM for 5 years! Hmm...
>(including a certain GM from a certain midwest railway museum who
has been known to stop by).
Egads! Not NICK!!! :-D
Frank Hicks
Just thought I'd announce here that I was recently accepted into the architecture program at Drexel University in Philly! It's unsure exactly when I'll be moving out there, as much of that depends on my housing and financial situation over the summer (I've been unemployed since mid-March, and I'm in pretty dire financial straits at the moment), but I'm guessing early September at the latest. Worst-case scenario is that I'll have to put all my stuff into storage for a while, find a temporary place to live in Philly, crash there until I find a job and a permanent place to live, and then come back to Chicago to retrieve my stuff.
Any advice or suggestions for cheap temporary (1-3 months) housing in/around Philly? (A bench in 30th Street Station won't quite cut it.)
And for more permanent housing, I'm looking at a few apartment complexes around the city:
Alden Park near Germantown
Fairmount Terrace Apartments near City Line Avenue
Media Station Apartments in Media, PA
Ramblewood Village Apartments in Mt. Laurel, NJ
The Village in Voorhees, NJ
Lakeview Apartments in Blackwood, NJ
...as well as several others.
Anybody have any experience with these particular apartment complexes, or know anything about the areas they're located in?
Thanks in advance...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Congratulations. Perhaps one day you'll be telling us all to visit your newest design.
-Hank
Dave,
I can't help you with your apartment search, but once you're in Philly, we'll have to organize another SubTalk SEPTA field trip. There are some interesting short lines in Eastern PA/South Jersey, too.
Bob
There is one planned for early June. I'll post on it soon.
David -
Glad to hear that you have some good news.
Best wishes in Philly. We'll miss you in Chicago.
-- Ed Sachs
How does your lady friend feel about all this? Or is it a case of "life goes on"?
Good question. She's aware of my plans to move (She was aware even before we started dating), and she's happy I got into Drexel. As for what happens between us, I guess we'll just make the best of our time for now, and see how things stand when that day approaches. It's certainly something we'll have to talk about sooner or later.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Beware of the "Drexel Shaft."
Well, good luck in any event. As for long distance relationships, all I can say is been there, done that. Let's leave it at that.
Philly is a great place to live. Some affordable areas would be South Philly and some parts of Kensington between the El and the River. Housing overall is pretty cheap in Philly. And if you move there before November, you still have a chance to vote Ed Rendell into the governors office. He was probably the best mayor Philadelphia has ever had.
I think that Frank Rizzo was the best mayor.
And there are affordable areas in town. How about the area near the Frankfort terminal? Is that area still cheap?
Frank Rizzo did more harm for the city than good. Ed Rendell spent much of his administration correcting the Rizzo mistakes.
I lived at Trent Court (complex) in Lindenwold, NJ. It is five minutes from the PATCO station (Lindenwold). Back then the rent was cheap.
David,
Does that mean soon you are going to regale us with comparisons of the Philly system to the NYC system like you have been doing with Chicago?
Allan
P.S.- there are no comparisons to the NYC system.
You have that right! Philly's system and New York's are in completely different leagues. Such a comparison is superfluous.
But Philly is really too small for a system like New York's. I'd be happy if we just had something like DC...
Mark
In addition to comparing NYC's and Chicago's systems, I've also compared Boston's, Atlanta's, London's, and Washington's. I certainly have my personal preferences, but I don't think I've ever once come out and said that one is flat-out better than another. Each has its own positives and negatives, and each has something unique to contribute to our interest as railfans. (But since I live in Chicago and this board is dominated by New Yorkers, comparisons between our two systems are only natural.)
No offesne to Philly, but as for SEPTA, it's got a whopping two (count 'em) rapid transit lines, each with only one class of rolling stock. Comparing it to the vast NYC system would be like comparing a little storefront Gospel chapel to Westminster Abbey. You can find God in either of them, but they're at opposite ends of the spectrum.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"P.S.- there are no comparisons to the NYC system."
Sure you can!
In Taylor (ND) they have a horse fest every year, and there are two horse drawn buckboards with SUBWAY-like benches attached to them. There is a conductor that helps people board, and anounces where they are going. And up fron there is a guy who makes the horse go when the conductor gives hime the signal.
Beofre too long the horses get tired though, and so these are replaced with tractors.
Hey if you brought the (F) train into town, it would stick out of town at both ends! : )
Is it true they may get electricity in Taylor, ND sometime this year?
It would be time they gave the hamsters a rest. :-)
Congratulations, David!
If you're going to school at Drexel you really might want to consider the University City neighborhood in West Philly. Your commute would be incredibly short, and you could ride trolleys every day. But the the neighborhood has two bigger advantages:
1. It's a very good place for a newcomer to meet people and make connections in the city, seeing as lots of other people there are transplants as well.
2. It has a lot to offer in terms of counter-culture and intellectual stimulation. If that interests you, it's the place to be.
I moved there in January to be closer to my fiancee who is a UC dweller. I've enjoyed every minute of it and have no regrets whatsoever. I'm very thankful to my betrothed for bringing me to the place I should have moved to years ago.
Mark
Congratulations, David!
If you're going to school at Drexel you really might want to consider the University City neighborhood in West Philly. Your commute would be incredibly short, and you could ride trolleys every day. But the neighborhood has two bigger advantages:
1. It's a very good place for a newcomer to meet people and make connections in the city, seeing as lots of other people there are transplants as well.
2. It has a lot to offer in terms of counter-culture and intellectual stimulation. If that interests you, it's the place to be.
I moved there in January to be closer to my fiancée who is also a UC dweller. I've enjoyed every minute of it and have no regrets whatsoever. I'm very thankful to my betrothed for bringing me to the place I should have moved to years ago.
Mark
My grandfather and father grew up in Germantown, on Gorgas Lane nr. Germantown Depot. I'm not sure where Aldan Park is but I'd be very curious to know what that old neighborhood is like now... I haven't been down there in years.
Germantown is a so-so neighborhood, half of it is working class and somewhat decent, half of it is ghetto.
I'm not sure if Alden Park is actually within Germantown or not, but it's a large 1920's-vintage complex at Wissahickon Avenue and School House Lane. From what I understand, it's actually a landmark building. It's a bit on the pricey side for me, but it's in a good location (within a short walk of the Queen Lane station on the R8) and the floorplans and photos look very nice. (Here's the listing from Homestore.com)
There is, however, an active Episcopal church in Germantown (St. Luke's) that I'll probably check out as I search for a new church home in Philly, in addition to a few others.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Voorhees has some serious traffic problem as does Mt. Laurel. You would have to take either the Walt Whitman down through the I-295/I-76/I-676/North South Freeway mess then up to exit 32/34/36 on I-294 whose offramps frequently back up onto the freeway and finally you'd have to fight inundated local roads w/ traffic lighes every 5 feet. Of course if you not commuting during either of the two rush periods its generally ok. There is a great movie theatre near Voorhees if you're into that kind of thing.
Blackwood is a little south of me, it is accessable from either the Walt Whitman or Ben Franklin (via I-676) bridges and probably offers less of a driving headache than Voorhees/Mt. Laurel due to the ease of bridge access and many "sceret" freeway on-ramps known by the locals. Blackwood offers better railfannning than Voorhees/Mt. Laurel w/ the Conrail Beesley's Point Secondary and the Vineland Sec w/in easy driving distance.
If the Media Appartments are close to the R3 station, I would take those.
The place in Media was actually at the top of my list. It's within an easy walk of the R3 station, the floorplans are spacious and well-laid out, the apartments have all the features I want, and it looks like the surrounding area is rather nicely wooded.
But...
According to a few reviews on AptRatings.com, the complex is run by a bunch of incompetent and greedy slobs, cable TV isn't available, the parking lots and walkways never get plowed in the winter, and maintenance is sloppy. (Other than that, it's a nice place...) If it were just one former tenant that said that, then I might say it was a case of sour grapes. But when every review is pretty consistent, then I'm more wary.
I'll probably at least check it out and make up my own mind, though. Who knows... Maybe they'll get taken over by new management before I'm ready to move.
-- David
Chicago, IL
This will make two friends I have in Philadelphia so I will be glad to visit later in the year....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey good luck next year at Drexel, I just got accepted there myself for the Engineering Program.
I have some expierience with the Village Apartments, it was where my family stayed while house hunting after a move (oddly enough) from chicago in 1998. The Apartment we got was one bedroom, a sleeper sofa in the front hall/family/living room. The whole place seemed very nice and well kept, i would say it was about 10 years old, pretty usual, somewhat boring cookie cutter design. There were two pools, both rather nice.
The big selling point to the place would have to be it's proximity to everything. PATCO/NJT AC line is maybe a 1/2 mile south along Whitehorse Pike at Lindenwold. It's maybe 15 minutes to center city, another 5 minutes on a MFL train to 34th street and Drexel. The AC line is like 40 minutes to 30th street station, walk to Drexel from there. There also are several busses, but so far i haven't bothered with them.
In Vorhees, if you don't mind walking, a brand new Super G (grocery store) just went in north of the complex (maybe 3/4 mile). There are several restaurants in the area (lonestar, olive garden, typical of hotel/relocation apartment areas). The Camden county library (straight out of the seveties) is just behind the Village, and just past that is Eschelon mall, which is slowly dying.
Jersey Mike was right, cars are a bad idea in this area, even though you need one to get almost anywhere, pick the wrong time to go, and you won't be going anywhere. Traffic can be unbeliveable, so after 4 pm on weekdays, hoof it.
If you can live in Media, go for it, New Jersey sucks (no offense NJ), Media is infinitely more beautiful than New Jersey, I was just there and was almost happy to be lost. You have the choice of the R3 or Rt. 101 light rail, the Rt101 is rather slow, but really cool and senic and such, but it does drop you off at 69th Street Terminal, a 20 minute ride to Center city on the MFL. If you're running late, you can get off the R3 at 49th street, transfer to a Rt13 and ride that to 34th or 33th street (i can't remember which), you'll walk up the stairs like a block from the main auditorium for drexel. But there are better neighborhoods than the area around 49th street, and I wouldn't recomend this transfer after dark.
Just one last thing, how dare you say that Philadelphia only has two rapid transit lines, are you forgetting the PATCO, Rt100, Rt101, Rt102, the Sub Surface Trolleys, and maybe, depending upon your definition of Rapid Transit, the SNJLRTS. What these systems lack in length, they more than make up for in diversity when the Rt15 trolley gets up and going whenever it's supposed to, Philadelphia will have an operating PCC trolley again. I really enjoy the Septa system, more so than the NJT and PATCO system, which is rather easy to become bored of.
Thanks for the info about Philly, Media, and South Jersey. Right now I'm sort of leaning towards Alden Park (which I believe is actually in Mt. Airy as opposed to Germantown), but I haven't totally ruled out the other places either. And of course, it will all depend on what's available when I'm actually ready to move.
Just one last thing, how dare you say that Philadelphia only has two rapid transit lines, are you forgetting the PATCO, Rt100, Rt101, Rt102, the Sub Surface Trolleys, and maybe, depending upon your definition of Rapid Transit, the SNJLRTS.
Actually, I said SEPTA (not Philly in general) has only two rapid transit lines, and I was referring to heavy rail rapid transit (i.e., traditional subways or elevated lines), compared to New York's dozens. I wasn't really talking about light rail or commuter rail, but I should have been more clear about that. I'll concede that PATCO should have been considered a third rapid transit line.
But if you want to compare overall transit systems of the two metro areas, you'd also have to throw in PATH, HBLR, and Newark's subway, not to mention Metro North, LIRR, and NJT. Not to knock Philly (which indeed has a very diverse network), but I'd still argue that New York's is far more vast.
But like I said, each system has its own unique characteristics, and its own positives and negatives.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Philly needs more in the way of rapid transit.
The SAchuylkill Valley Metro, if built, will convert the R6 commuter rail line to a subway-like frequency. Also, there is a proposal to put a new subway under US 1 (Roosevelt Blvd) and extend the Market-Frankford line to meet it. That would give Philly a third subway (unless you consider the 8th-Market Broad-Ridge spur a line, in which case the new subway would be number 4).
Oh boy, oh boy, a posting about building new subway lines in Philadelphia...my favorite SubTalk topic!
If you count PATCO, you can say we have three rapid transit lines. The Roosevelt Boulevard subway would make four if it were built. This one is absolutely necessary, as NE Philly has more people than Pittsburgh, a third of the city's population, and no rapid transit.
I wish instead of the Schuylkill Valley Metro that they'd build two systems: a subway or elevated that ran from Center City to the Norristown/Conshohocken/King of Prussia area, and a good commuter line to serve the destinations between Norristown and Reading. That would give us five lines subway lines. The subway could also hit the art museum, the zoo, and Manayunk along the way.
But I think we need more than that. I think a line serving Germantown is necessary, too. Replacing either the R7 or R8 Chestnut Hill trains with rapid transit would be a good idea. That would give us six subway lines.
I'm not sure what else we need. I think the City Ave corridor needs some sort of service, too, but I'm not sureof the best way to do that.
Mark
Greetings anew to all. Although I haven't posted much in quite some time, I kept in touch with everybody through heavy lurking of both SubTalk before the hiatus and Harry's website during. I hope to become a more active participant in the future.
Anyway, what is the exact itinerary of the D-type trip on Memorial Day? Will it include any behind-the-scenes trackage similar to the SBK or Culver Express runs of the past? Is the trip sold out, or is there still time to squeeze two more tickets in?
It is different since it is leaving from Whitehall St. Past times it has left from Columbus Circle and over on the Eastern BMT.
I don't know where they will be going this time.
Well, one thing is almost a certainty. Since is departing at Whitehall, it will be going through that rotten rat infested Montague Tunnel. I do hope, however, that it emerges from the portal at 59th Street and takes the Sea Beach route to Coney Island. If they can also put a #4 on the Triplex that would be nostalgia plus and might even elicit a small bribe to the person responsible for this happy turn of events. How about that?
The flyer I received about the excursions, re: Monday, May 27
"Old Days on the BMT". >>>This special train will leave the
Whitehall Street Station [N and R lines] at 10:30am and will be
visiting the Franklin Ave. Shuttle, Brighton, Jamaica and
Cararsie lines.<<< May not even venture to Coney Island as per
above. Twice thru the Montague Street Tunnel. Interesting.
=:), Sparky
Uh-oh, Fred's bound to be mad.:-(
Such is life. I don't think you can now go from Stillwell to the
Sea Beach. If it was, then we could recreate the "Franklin~Nassau
Express" via Brigton & Sea Beach to Chambers with the "D" types.
:)Sparky
The tracks are still there -- W trains use them on frequent GO's, and N trains use them when W service is cancelled.
The only reason the N doesn't normally run through to Stillwell anymore is that it lost its platform and it would have to share a platform with the W. (I don't see why it couldn't be done on weekends, at least, but it isn't.)
My question is, besides the lose of the platform at Stillwell for
the Sea Beach, is the track that connected the Sea Beach with the
Brigton still in service? It was the most eastern track on the
upper level, that was assigned to "Franklin~Nassau" expresses when
operated in the thirties, they ran thru Coney Island to/from
Chambers Street.
To clarify is there a usable connecting track at Stillwell between
the "Q" & "N" on southend?
:) Sparky
There *has* to be - otherwise, where do all the nighttime Q express layups go when they reach Brighton Beach?
--Mark
The Brighton is connected to track 2 now at Stillwell. Track 1 has been demolished completely along with the whole N platform. Track 2 is used for putins and layups for the .
Thanks Mark,
You clarified a lot for this "Street Car Fanatic", track number, etc.
The (Q) platform on tracks 3 & 4, which also run thru to the North?
:) Sparky
I don't think they used Triplexes all that much on the Franklin-Nassau specials. BMT standards held center stage there.
>>>I don't think they used Triplexes all that much on the Franklin-Nassau specials. BMT standards held center stage there.<<<
Since this service is more likely senior to us in years and this is
strictly from memory. I vaguely recall a route sign on the side of
the "D" types entitled 'Coney Island Express', plus all the other
BMT Southern Division Subway Lines. I know on the Standards it was
called 'Franklin-Nassau', but haven't seen that on a "D" type route curtain.
Possible could be for same service but never operated with the "D" type cars.
Before my time, it was speculative of me.
:) Sparky
AFAIK the Triplexes did indeed have "Coney Island Express" side route signs in case they were used on the Franklin-Nassau Special.
"It is different since it is leaving from Whitehall St. Past times it has left from Columbus Circle and over on the Eastern BMT"
It has started from Whitehall Street in the past.
I was on the "South Brooklyn RY. Special" (9/29/75) with this very train:
"South Brooklyn Railway crew, with pilot, will operate lite from 36th. Steet yard to Whitehall Street (track B3-4) where the group will entrain. At 10:00 AM on orders of the Division "B-1" Desk Trainmaster, the special train will operate to 36th Street Yard..."
-Larry
The train is doing the Frankin Shuttle TWICE as a photo op, so if you missed out on getting tickets, at least you can photo the set on in the system.
Mr rt :^)
The (formerly Camden, now South Jersey) Courier-Post last Thursday ran an article about railroad history and the NRHS that quoted me rather accurately, mainly because the writer spoke at length to the Chapter Historian, who straightened out her notes from her previous interviews.
Courier-Post article
Bob,
Congrats.
Allan
Congradulations, Bob.
Chaohwa
Congrats! Of course <ego masturbation mode> I've done it multiple times...ok, twice.
http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/SIAdvance3-6-02.jpg
http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/dailynewsphoto8-8-01.JPG
-Hank
I got a photo in the campus newspaper of a student being arrested.
>>>...of a student being arrested.<<<
WAS it YOU? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
How would I take a picture of myself being arrested? Police generally handcuff suspects.
Hank ... for a minute I didn't realize you were the photographer and thought the headline about the torched Bungalow was something you were involved with :) Whew!
--Mark
Nah, I don't do that sort of thing...anymore.
-Hank :)
You just so happened to be there when the fire started, right?
*suspicious look*
just kidding
Actually, I was at my dad's office when the Satellite went by, and that's when I took off after it. (The Satellite is a unit with a large amount of hose, used at multiple alarm fires and where long hose stretches are required. They used to be called 'hose wagons', and are the last remaining part of the old 'Super Pumper' system, which was retired in the 70s.)
-Hank
CONGRATS, chuchubob. Interesting article.
Peace,
ANDROO
LOL
Thanks, ANDROOO, and Allan and Chaohua!
I also wondered whether J.M.'s published photo was a self-portrait.
Congrats Bob
Early last year, I read on the MTA's website about the MN Harlem Line's third track project between Mount Vernon West and Crestwood (or further north). I got to see the project in action earlier this month when I went with a few church companions of mine's to Mount Kisco. It looks like the project is still in its opening stages because the work is still in the vicinity of Mount Vernon West. Anyone doing railfanning or commuting on the Harlem line can expect weekend delays for awhile, because the service pattern leaves the line with one track only from Mount Vernon West to Hartsdale.
I also did say that we went up to Mount Kisco. I found it hard to believe that, with the scenery in the area, the line is actually electrified at all, much less for almost twenty years. I found it even harder to believe that there are still grade crossings on the line, some of which are very near the Saw Mill Parkway. Nevertheless, there is also trackwork being done on this stretch of line (this one I don't know too much about. If anyone can fill me in on this I'd appreciate it).
One day last week as i was coming to the city on the L line from Canarsie it left Rockaway Parkway late that the train made all stops to Broadway Junction then operated express to Lorimer Street with a stop at Myrtle Avenue.
Thank You
Sounds like this train was behind schedule and skip stops to make up the time.
I have been on L trains that have doon that between Lorimer an Myrtle. I think they do that when they do run behind occasionally.
The L line lost it's magic the day I left it! :-)
-Mark
Yeah, but the TSS's over there are breathing a sigh of relief! ;-D
Unless I come over there.
Hey, Dave, don't get me started....LOL!
> The L line lost it's magic the day I left it!
How so?
- Lyle Goldman
> The L line lost it's magic the day I left it!
How so?
- Lyle Goldman
Sorry for posting twice. I don't know how that happened.
- Lyle Goldman
Actually, the "L" lost its magic when they got rid of the Standards!!!
By the way Mark, have you done any apprenticeships yet?
Hey Sarge, the Standards, NAH! The BMT "13" & "16" were the home of
the Multi's. They were unique. You couldn't do 14th Street~Fulton
with Standards. The Standards filled the gap as 14th Street locals
from Myrtle to 8th Avenue in Peak Service. >G<
:)Sparky
I breathed a sigh of relief in 1969 when the BMT standards finally left the Canarsie line. That was then; this is now.
During the afternoon of 5/15/02, a Canarise bound L train at Halsey St. consisting of cars 8104/3/2/1 and 8108/7/6/5 struck a male passenger who either fell of jumped onto the roadbed. To our knowledge, this is the first 12-9 involving an R143.
See, people are willing to die in protest!:-)
12-9's on the No.6 Line seem to gone up since the R142A's.
Glad to be back in the house that Pirmann built.
The 2002 Model Trolley & Transit Show
Presented by the NYC Model Transit Association &
Saint Augustine of Canterbury School
See models of NYC Transit equipment of all scales, model trolleys from around the country, operating layouts,
model dealers and manufacturers, memorabilia tables, books, photos
and much more!
The theme for this event will be "Farewell to the Redbirds". Models, photos, books, videos and even a souvenir coffee mug featuring these cars will be available!
Friday, May 31 - 3pm till 10pm (for set up only)
Saturday, June 1 - 9am till 5pm
At-
St. Augustine of Canterbury School
45 Henderson Road
Kendall Park, NJ 08824
Admission - $10 per family
Dealer Tables - $30 per table
Please see our website for more details & photos, at -
http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm
-Steve Olsen
See you there!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've noticed that they were puting up sections of support up at Dekalb Ave between the tunnel track(R/M/N) and the super express track(W). They are filling in the gap that used to be a crossover before the station was lengthened.
My question is, does anyone know if this is being done for structural integrity, or for simple cosmetic reasons during the station renovation?
JDL
They are probably extending the curtain wall to make the rehab look better.
Is there an upcoming renovation scheduled for DeKalb Avenue? Does anyone have any specific plans?
- Lyle Goldman
Besides the one that's going on as we speak, er, write?
David
Yup. All the old original tilework from the curtain wall that seperates the bypass and tunnel tracks has been recently removed, so I'm guessing it's going to be replaced.
I hope so, but what about the tiles on the outer walls? What are they going to do with those?
- Lyle Goldman
Cover them up, like they do at other stations that are being rehabbed.
I'm not sure about DeKalb but if you take it one stop over to Atlantic Avenue, the Q platform is looking nicer and nicer everyday. Flourescent lighting is up and a set of tiles it up at the front of the northbound track wall.
I noticed that too... it might be for sound proofing, if they still haven't gone past 5' from the ground that may be the case... I hope they don't block it up, I like being able to see all the trains I'm missing and are getting in front of me on the bridge/4th ave exp!
And it will be really annoying if/when we get back both a Broadway and 6th ave service using the bypass... what did we miss?
May be the large 75 footers. Well, may be some slants in the mix too.
I think they're putting up a curtain wall there. They'll probably do the same thing on the other side.
wayne
I live in Queens. My wife and I were planning to go to Atlantic City Memorial Day Weekend, but I will have to work Friday. She wants to pick me up at my job in Manhattan, but really---BAD IDEA!!!!!!! Traffic is bad everywhere on that Friday, but you really don't want to be leaving Manhattan. So I thought maybe I would take the ferry over Staten Island and she could pick me up there.
So the upshoot is...
I haven't been at the St. George terminal since like 1988, and I really don't remember it. Is it a safe place for her to wait for me? Any vendors? Coffee? Magazine? Anywhere to park?
Thank you.
:-) Andrew
I don't know about St. George. I would recommend Metropark in Iselin. By the afternoon some commuters will have gone home and there will be parking spaces close in to the train station. Just agree where you'll meet (e.g., at the ticket booth).
And it's an easy connection to/from the Garden State parkway.
It is pretty safe, and there's a McDonalds and Dunkin Donuts in there.
I think the Dunkin Donuts is gone. :(
Last I saw it was a little cart outside the "fare control" area... are you sure? If so this sucks. I don't want to spend $1 for a stale donut on the ferry when I could spend 75¢ for a less stale one at DD!
Uhm...they're the same bad donuts. The concessionaire for the boats is the same one for the Dunkin Donuts in the SI Terminal.
-Hank
Hey guys! I am glad that Subtalk is back. Now lets all behave, so that Subtalk will stay here. It is the greatest chat room and my main source for up to the minute happenings on subways everywhere especially in NYC. So let's behave.
I love the feature on international systems. What is missing is Tokyo subway pictures. Does anyone have any Tokyo pictures to contribute?
Can anyone tell me where the Newark PCC's have ended up. It would be greatif a couple could find their way over here perhaps Manchester.
Simon
Swindon UK
I BELIEVE that they are still on NJTransit property.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks.
Would you know if it is possible to go and see them, take photos etc?
Simon
Swindon UK
One went to Shore Line Trolley Museum; one went to San Francisco Muni (who sent two Boeing LRVs to Manchester). The rest are still up in the new yard at the north end of the subway extension. There's some pics on the site of the yard lineup.
I was under the impression that the one that went to BERA (#27). Did not come directly from Newark.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's correct. It is an original (unrebuilt) that went from Minneapolis to Newark to Shaker Heights to Minneapolis again and finally to BERA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A-N-D she lives again .... after many years in storage (under a bag outside) she operates again do to a big effort by many hands at Branford.
#27 & #1001 were both part of Member's Day at Branford & this writer was given the privlidge of a trip down the line in the front seat.
Now that most of the mechanical work has been completed the staff's attention is turning to her structural needs, e.g. our Curator replaced one of the plastic windows with glass (the screws that hold the sash togather had to be chiseled off very carefully so as not to damage the stainless steel frame).
BTW, I've heard that more them one Newark PCC is/has gone to San Fran
Mr rt :^)
At least one went to San Francisco.
A recent report had 8 more going to MUNI, but I don't remember where the info came from. With the possibility of most going west.
If anyone else knows if this is true, please post it.
My suspicion is that it is true, as NJT isn't running a used streetcar lot, and none of the proposed heritage lines in NJ are 10 or more years away. The cars are not going to rot for 10 years.
Dan, word on the street is that none of the Newark PCCs
will be made available to museums outside of NJ. A bunch
are expected to go to Muni, the rest will be kept in NJ for
the museum at Philipsburg and for possible future heritage
operations.
Since word on the street is notorious for being wrong, I suspect that all but 4 or 5 will go west. None of the proposed heritage operations are anywhere close to start up, most seem to be 10 or more years away and NJT isn't going to store the cars that long - NJT is not running a used streetcar lot. Philipsburg is a possibility, and NJT is keeping a couple for "historical reasons".
Muni is so desparate for cars for F-Market - Embarkadero that they grabbed two 4000's from PAT and were actually considering rebuilding 10 or more of the hulks that have been rotting on the pier since 1980 at a cost estimated at over 1 million per car. That was with MSRy doing a lot of the finish work.
14 already went west, I heard 8 more cars were going. 14 was run all over the system for clearance tests and performed splendedly.
This is one of the best "watch and see" things in a long time.
I had posted a while back on Harry's board that this sounded a lot like what happened in 1963 and 64 with the SLPS cars that were leased at first, then purchased when Bi-State took SLPS and was getting out of the streetcar business. To qoute Yogi Berra, this is "deja vu all over again"
I suspect that all but 4 or 5 will go west
That's about the number that I've heard.
Another key point is that the cars going to San Fran are "loaned" to them. Maybe they will stay there for the rest of their days or maybe they'll return to NJ some day.
Mr rt :^)
I heard it's a lease - just like when MUNI got the 1100's from St. Louis. When the cars went, they were leased from SLPS, but in 1964 Bi-State took SLPS. They were getting out of the streetcar business, so the lease became an outright sale - Bi-State didn't want them back.
I suspect the same thing will happen with the Newark cars. When NJT decides that there's no revenue future in New Jersey, the lease will become a sale.
Besides, nobody would loan equipment for a long period - how much money would NJT have to put into the cars after MUNI runs them for 8 to 10 years?
As I said before - none of the proposed heritage operations in NJ are 10 years or more before the lines operate. NJT is not running a used streetcar lot and it costs money to store them, plus a new storage facilty would have to be built - the cars just can't sit outside the shop for 10 or more years.
One person was killed and another seriously injured on the tube today.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/html/news.html
Apparently the two were larking around and one fell under a train whicht the other was seriously injured. Very sad.
Simon
Swindon UK
Indeed very sad. But it happens on the Tube in New York City also. Sometimes people do not understand how dangerious it is.
The Southbound (Manhattan-bound) platforms at Halsey St on the J and at Hewes St on the J/M will be closed 24 hours a day beginning on Monday, May 20 and will reopen on August 19.
Just so you know.
It's about time.
I've got to admit, Hewes Street is in bad shape. I was able to see the street below through the cracks in the platform there. Scary stuff.
I'll keep that in mind should I get assigned to work over there. Not that I would consciously take a job there.
GLAD that I don't live there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Question- last year they also closed the Queens Bound platforms at Flushing and Koscisuzko. WHy did they decide to do only two- will they still do the last two.
I think Hewes and Lorimer were also closed on the Queens bound side and redone already. I would assume they will do all of them little by little. Are they also going to redo any of the M line platforms. Fresh Pond was done a few years ago, and I know Wyckoff is in line for rehab. What about the others?
They should close Hewes and Lorimer permanently and open a new station above the Crosstown Line's Broadway Station.
That idea has merit -- I've advocated it for years -- but it's not going to happen.
David
Would there be room to convert the line to four tracks in the process?
I don't think there would be room for a 4th track, the el is pretty close to the buildings. In addition the whole el would have to be reconfigured, even if there was enough room, because there is no room on just one side of the el to just add a track.
>>Would there be room to convert the line to four tracks in the process?<<
Not unless hoardes of nearby buildings were demolished to make room.
History note - The Broadway "el" was constructed as a two track structure but by the time after the turn of the century (19-20th), a third track was added. If you walk under the "el" at Marcy Ave and look up, you'll notice that the original girders are smaller and the girders for the center track is larger indeed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Damn! So even double decking isn't feasible!
>>Damn! So even double decking isn't feasible!<<
These days nothing to that grand scale is feasible. Whether you widen or double deck the Broadway (Brooklyn) "el", the cost involved would not be cost effective. Same goes for a subway to replace the "el"
Right now, it seems that the best way is to have express service in the durection of peak travel. The #7, #6 and the #2 7 5 have it.
Bill "Newkirk"
These days nothing to that grand scale is feasible.
Why was it ever?
>>Why was it ever?<<
One word.....MONEY
If there was an infinite source money, they would spend it. Unfortunately, that's not the case. It's taken us some 80 years to build the Second Ave subway, they seem serious about it. Hope this helps.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well on those terms there evidently was a lot more money when the Subways were built. Where did it come from? Where did that source disappear? Or is it just that modern construction is financially wasteful?
I don't know exactly where the money came from when the first subways were built. But we all know that the IND subway was built during the depression when jobs were scarce and this was the perfect way to put New York back to work.
After the IND was built, things slowed down as far as subway construction went. Any subways were connectors and not major trunk lines. "el"s that were old and seen as blight and money losers were demolished and not replaced.
Nowadays, building any subway line, including the Second Ave route costs much more than the first subway lines after the turn of the century. Try building the first IRT subway line of 1904 from City Hall to 145th St. It would take more than four years and cost billions of dollars. Things are much different now than one hundred years ago and money for subway construction is one of them !
Bill "Newkirk"
To build the Dual Contracts lines, the City of New York increased its debt limit and the private companies at the time (IRT & BRT) also built some lines and improved other lines at their own expense. The private companies felt that there were profits to be made by making new routes available. There also wasn't any competition against the automobile.
Nowadays, rapid transit is most often a money-losing proposition.
--Mark
Nowadays, rapid transit is most often a money-losing proposition.
That is true. However, road maintenence and construction is a money loosing proposition also, and billions are spent on that each year also.
One major reason is that in 1904 a subway construction worker was paid a barely living wage. Now such a worker is considerably more middle class. I'm not saying this is bad; it's just different, and it makes major projects much harder to do.
The Broadway el was upgraded in 1916. The original columns were in the street while the new ones were placed along the sidewalk.
Absolutely. Why rebuild two rickety el stations when one entirely new, ADA-compliant one would probably not cost that much more. A direct transfer into the G-line makes compelling sense. Done right, they would only need one booth attendant, instead of the present three. The personnel savings would probably eventually make up for the cost differential.
Agreed. Hewes is very close to Marcy anyway. A new "Union Ave" station between Flushing & Marcy would make sense.
It's been a really really long time since i last posted. I'm surprised my handle is still registered. Anyway, technically, what is the southern terminal for the N? I noticed that there were train crew switches on the southbound side. Does the new crew turn the train back at 86 and continue northwards or do they just bring it back to Kings Highway?
--Kenny
The Southbound N crew from Astoria brings the train to Kings Hwy then gets off. A new crew then gets on, brings it to 86 St (terminal), then relays the train with the help of a switchman and brings it back to Astoria.
The South bound terminal is Kings Hwy unless the W is not running then the N goes to Stillwell on the W platform.
Is there still a physical track connection at Stillwell on the southend from the "N" to the "Q"?
>>Is there still a physical track connection at Stillwell on the southend from the "N" to the "Q"?<<
Yes, but the connection now is with Track #7 and not Track #8. Track #7 is used as a bypass during the demolition of the Sea Beach platforms. The Track #8 roadbed is gone, all concrete has been removed and steel girders and stringers are being removed during demolition.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's backwards. The Sea Beach tracks are #1 and #2, not #7 and #8, which are the West End tracks.
From lowest number to highest:
1/2: Sea Beach
3/4: Brighton
5/6: Culver
7/8: West End
Track #1 is presently gone. The track that currently allows Brighton trains to travel to/from Coney Island Yard is #2.
David
>>That's backwards. The Sea Beach tracks are #1 and #2, not #7 and #8, which are the West End tracks<<
DAMN DYSLEXIA !!
Bill "Newkirk"
When the rehab is complete, where will the new bypass track (for Q train yard moves) be -- between 2 and 3 or past 1 (or elsewhere)? Will the other tracks be renumbered?
Past 1. In fact, that's why they have to do the whole demolition and rebuilding. They could have added the new track beside the existing structure, but at some point it would have been on PSE&G property, and they wouldn't give the land up, so now they have to squeeze the additional track into the existing ROW.
PSE&G? Did Stillwell Terminal move to New Jersey?
David
Whatever the utility facility over there is.
It will be TRACK Zero but I'm sure everything will be renumberd to keep a standard leval of TA confusion.
As far as passengers are concerned, the south terminal on the N is 86th Street. The signs on some of the trains show Kings Highway because 86th Street isn't on all the rolls.
I thought I saw one car class with a few roll signs saying 86 street, am I mistaken?????
I thought I saw one car class with a few roll signs saying 86 street, am I mistaken?????
That would be the R-68s.
--Kenny
Hey guys, let me see if I get this straight. The Sea Beach was once an express, but it now a local. The Sea Beach used to regularly go over the Manny B but does so only late at night. The Sea Beach used to go to Coney Island but now terminates at Kings Highway or 86th Street or wherever. And some of you still have the bald faced nerve to tell me that my Sea Beach hasn't been ripped off the past decade or so? That's really priceless.
not to mention the fact that while the N train gets a taste of new cars for a while, it seems that the line eventually reverts to the older r models (32/40). go figure.
it seems that the line eventually reverts to the older r models (32/40). go figure.
That's good or bad depending on how you look at it.
That's bad. As the L line gets R143's, at a certain point the south will get ENY cars. I feel sorry for the N line if they get the CI rebuilt R42 4840 to 4949 series. Those cars are rags.
I hope we get R32s... somehow... :D
Yeah, the R42 CI's weren't made with the best parts, but they still have a bit of a homely feel to them. At least you cannot say that the brake valve is difficult to manipulate, and you can definitely feel the HVAC working.
That's all when you don't mention the appearance of the stations.
But they're renovating the Manhattan local stations now, they're nearing completion and look good. These are stations that the N shouldn't be using in the first place!
Oh? And why not? What stations should be be using anyway?
So you think the N should stop at Prince, 8th, 23rd and 28th? That's the first time I've heard you say that.
I think Fred means the N should use Canal St., Union Square, 34th St., and Times Square. Nothing else.
That's it Steve. Thanks for straightening Americano Piggo out. I think he did know what I meant but, hey, Pig likes to stir things up and I enjoy reading his retorts.
I can also add 57th St. if you'd like.:-)
>>>>>>>The Sea Beach used to regularly go over the Manny B but does so only late at night.
Hate to rile you up a little more, but now the N never goes over the Man. Br.
And the N does indeed terminate at 86th Street. It only changes crews at Kings Hwy.
Either an R68 or an R68A with a new sign installed on it would be able to display "Brooklyn-86 Street".
I haven't been there since, but Essex Street is under rehab currently. Does anyone know if they will be putting up a wall with tiles along the old trolly station. I'd hate to see the view of the old station go, but it would improve the overall appearance of the station.
How about putting some trolleys there? That would really improve the overall appearance.
Yeah, that would be really great, sadly that will probably never happen.
It might do if you decided to call them LRVs!
Anybody have pics of the old station in service.
I think installing LRVs to replace busses in outlying areas is an idea with merit. Like a Pelham Parkway LR.
Will Amtrak be getting any new Passenger Cars anytime soon, after their money problem is over? If so , I hope it's Passenger Cars that look similar to the Acela Passenger Cars.
"after their money problem is over? "
Greetings Martian!
This is planet Earth....
and it is not likely that their money problems will *ever* be over!
So yes they will get new equipment *sometime* *somehow*
But it will be a cold day on planet Mercury when their budget problems will be over.
Or perhaps in a few months we could vote for the "other guy" in your district ... whatever party's in power in YOUR location, vote for the other guy. Might get their attention if they have to find a new job.
Buying Superliner coaches is more urgent than your beloved Acela coaches. They are decimated by recent derailments.
Chaohwa
Of course, if superliners weren't so prone to flipping and flying at the slightest provocation....
I'm guessing that at some point in time, the NTSB, etc is going to research this and find the center of gravity on the superliners is somewhat higher than most other cars. Same reason why SUVs flip over so easy.
Its better than getting a that oh so great view of the ballast like you do in European/Cascades coaches.
>>>...after their money problem is over? <<<
HAHAHA
If you post the same question the Amtrak forum at railroad.net or trainorders.com, I am wondering what the answers are.
Chaohwa
I suspect the first answer would be that there are 89 Amtrak passenger cars stored at Beech Grove in need of repair that are not scheduled for repair because there is no money and the technicians have been laid off, so talk of new cars would be meaningless.
I don't think so.
Amtraks' budget problems are so severe that it doesn't look like they will EVER get new equipment!!! And with all the unfortunate accidents, there is so much equipment out of service at Beech grove that if they have one more wreck they will have to cancel service somewhere.
They actualyl DID get new equipment within the last two years, but they did not look anything like the Acela, except maybe for the blue paint!!!
The new equipment? The Pacific Surfliner cars out in California. There were originally eight five-car sets built (cab-baggage-coach, coach, coach, food service, business class). One set was wrecked and the cab-baggage-coach was damaged beyond repair. Additional cars were ordered and put into service in late 2001, including a replacememnt for the wrecked car #6900. In the additional car order were some painted "California Amtrak" to match those slightly older AC cars in use in northern California.
I rode this newly rebuilt car on Tuesday for the first time, and it was the best ride on the Mattapan line that I ever had!! The ride was smooth; very little friction. I graduate on Sunday and head back to CT on Monday..so it was nice to have one final hurrah. Just maybe the new rebuilders won't do a bad job after all? -Nick
P.S.: WOOHOO...We're back!!! :-)
The PCCs are being rebuilt by the MBTA -- no contractors here! "Native craftsman, skilled in their work." A Seashore colleague was project manager for this until he retired last year. But they continue to do a great job keeping these gems going!
My apologies if this was answered already, but I didn't spend much time on the alternative boards. The 5.1 earthquake's epicenter was in upstate NY, in the same town that Bombardier is in. Was the plant damaged, and were any R142 cars effected? -Nick
I guess judging by the composite views of most people that the earthquake probably improved Bombardier's quality control somewhat :)
--Mark
A 5.1 quake at that depth would hardly rattle the windows.
you weren't there were you? My house was shaking so bad,I thought someone picked up my house and tossed it around like it was a ball. you had to be there,man....
Heh. Over here in V'ville, woke up to the bedroom door banging like the cops were on the other side of it. Thought I had missed out on a really good date. Betcha the battery compartment bolts on the cars waiting to be delivered will show up nice and tight. :)
you know im right up the road from you[WE BE UPSTATERS]so you know what im talkin bout,kirk!!!!!
Heh. Saddest part was the wife and I both woke up to the door rattling to beat the band, turned to the wife and said "earthquake" and we both went back to sleep. When a "3" happens downstate, it's in the news for weeks even if nobody felt it. Up here, the annual earthquake is a yawner. This one was a bit more impressive than usual though but we're used to them. Funny how nobody can find any fault lines up here ... well, you know how it is with the annual Schoharie or Montreal earthquakes ... yawn. :)
Chris,
Damage to roadways and other places was reported in the Plattsburgh area, and the other posters who were there speak for themselves. -Nick
I was being somewhat sarcastic. From the news accounts I've read, no meaningful damage was reported. A 5.1 quake would have hardly been noticed in southern California.
True, a 5.1 earthquake would be nothing in California, so I do understand your sarcasm. However, it was sort of a big deal here, and since damage was reported in Plattsburgh..this thread seemed appropriate. -Nick
Heh. SCREW the earthquake, we've got about 3 inches of SNOW on the ground up here now, forecasts warn of 6 inches. In frigging MAY fer krissakes ... anybody in the mood for SKIING? :)
In all sincerity since a satellite dish cleaning was in order, did some cross-country skiing myself this morning ... heh. Never a dull moment in upstate Noo Yawk ...
Well ... update ... appears we've become a "disaster area" with thousands of trees down, no power (we make our own here so loss of the "regulated power company" is something we don't notice) and all sorts of closed roads because foliage was out and trees are down.
4 inches and counting, coming down like no tomorrow. Heh. Anybody up for a ski trip? Sheesh.
Must be the same snow we had last week.
I've been in North Dakota since '83, and this was the first time we has snow in May.
We didn't have any trees go down, but then I can't really say that he have any trees anyway.
Elias
Pretty impressive so far (visited the NOAA doppler site and it's almost over) but the missus is just plain flipping out here. I kinda think it's PRETTY but then again, that's a "prohibited thought" in this house. Then again, I think R1/9's were pretty so no accounting for taste. :)
Weather Channel is showing right now our little "zone" as a white circle of nasty precipitation ... Smallbany gets blizzard, who cares? Heh.
"Smallbany gets blizzard, who cares? Heh. "
Shutdown state govt for a week, and maybe you can get some things done, eh?
Elias
The budget was 46 days late ... a week is NOTHING to these swine. I say shut it down entirely. Ideally, they should do state government in New York like the election of a pope with a variation. Brick the phuckers into the building, no potty breaks, issue each "legislator" a 4x5 index card upon which they can write any bill they want. Give them a crayon. They can trade crayons and index cards all they want, but only one of each to a legislator.
They then are given 24 hours to do whatever needs to be done PER YEAR and that's it. No budget, they can't come out for a year. They're limited only to the bills that are written and approve on those index cards. They run out, TS ... they can rot for a year. Betcha things would change and would get done. :)
Our legislature meets only every other year, and then for only 30 to 45 days. No index cards, but they do have laptops.
Hey... these guys gotta be DONE! before it is time to start spring planting (oh yeah... did I tell you that they *work* for a living?)
Pork has a different meaning out here! It's what is for Breakfast!
Elias
Not to sound selfish or anything, but it's good for our water supply down here.
Absolutely ... and in fact things like this are amusing to me. If something like this were to have happened downstate, they'd have declared martial law. Up here, it means fire up the generator. But we cool. :)
Snow... nasty white stuff... similar to some nasty brown stuff whose name also begins with "s"... we even had a few snow flurries on the 11 AM trip at Branford yesterday. But mostly just torrential rain until early afternoon. I got absolutely soaked when we were bringing the cars out of the barn! Fortunately, I had company on my runs (either Thurston or Sparky) and they had ponchos so they swapped the poles at Short Beach and Sprague while I tended to our revenue passengers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wet transit worker. Ewwwww. :)
Nothing like a damp rope on a live pole.
If the crane was out, you'd have to pull the plug in the "bathtub"
BTW, how were the signals behaving with such low ballast resistance?
No problem with the signals... despite the extreme dampness (and water completely covering the single-point switch by the shack at Farm River Road) they held true. We never had more than one car out on the line to Short Beach at a time so I didn't have to deal with setting the call-on and its flickering. Whatever crew is responsible for cutting the foliage back along the line needs to do some trimming around 22W though... it played peek-a-boo with me all the way up the straigtaway past the picnic grove. 2001 was a real pain on the wet rail too... 357 and 629 behaved much better. We didn't run 775 down the line at all and of course 4573 stayed put inside the barn, nice and dry. Weather got a lot nicer in the afternoon and we got fairly busy; the 4:30 tour could have stayed home, though, as far as I was concerned. But that comes with the territory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW, how were the signals behaving with such low ballast resistance?
Once we have signals every 250' feet, ballast resistance
won't be a factor.
And stop looking ahead in the textbook, maintainer apprentice,
ballast resistance is in Chapter 12, but
we're only in Chapter 1: "It is well known that all matter consists
of but four elements, viz, earth, water, air and fire".
Students, cross that out and correct it. It is know known beyond
a shadow of a doubt that the four elements are "caffeine,
alchohol, nicotine and sugar".
Atta boy! Those four elements would get you a job HERE too. :)
I knew there was something missing from my diet. I guess I'll go buy a pack of Marlboro's posthaste.
-- I thought track circuits were chapter one, being one of the "basic elements" of railway signalling...
Other wise every other line would be :(see chapter 12)
Heh. Proper track circuitry is mainly the result of proper grounding and return paths. When moisture makes a difference, tells you there's excessive resistance in the ground path on a DRY day. Shows that one of the food groups is missing, SALT. :)
The day before a game my coach told us to stay away from the 3 W's.
Wine, Woman & Weed.
<< . It is know known beyond a shadow of a doubt that the four elements are "caffeine, alchohol, nicotine and sugar". >>
Hmmm...you've got two of the four. The "correct" four elements are caffeine, nicotine, salt, and grease.
We got snow in Denver last year on May 20. It's so dry out here now we'll take any precip in any form.
They will only use it as a excuse for their crap.
Boy! You guys are ruff.... don't ever become a Judge.
I've heard rumors that some R142 or R142A cars will be headed to the #4 at some poin. Anyone know if this is true, and maybe when this will happen (like before or after the option order arrives)? I can invision a new logo for the 2002 Subway Series...and R142 car with the #4, and an R62A for the #7! -Nick
R142As will go to #4 soon.
Chaohwa
the MTA has ordered 450 new car like the the R142 order.....they are suppose to be heading for the 3 and 4 lines..... check the MTA site for futher info....
where is this on the mta website
I can't say the 4 but I am 100% sure the 3 will never see any R142's until the R62 leaves
Until they leave what?
The latest word I've heard is that the 3 will get a full fleet of R-142's, probably after the 5.
Where else would the 7 get its R-62A's from? There weren't enough on the 6 to fill up the 7, the 4 is keeping its R-62's and is only replacing its Redbirds with R-142A's, and the 2 and 5 only had Redbirds to begin with.
Your currect here is the Car Assignments.
No.1 Line: R62A's
No.2,3,5 Lines: full fleet of R142's
No.4 Line: R62,R62A Singles, R142A's
No.6 Line: R142A
No.7 Line: R62A
GCS Line: R62A singles from No.4 Line
Will the 4 have only enough R-62A singles to fill the shuttle (i.e., they'd belong to the 4 only in name)? Otherwise I don't see the point.
I had the same question, what is the point of singles on the 4, if not for the shuttle.
This is confirmed. The R-142As are slated for #4 service, Cars #7651-7730.
-Stef
Will the R-160 be equipped with CBTC just like the R-143's? I'm thinking that the R-160 hasn't came in yet, because if the MTA is planning to install CBTC into the R-160's then maybe they are waiting to see if the CBTC with the R-143's work out.
-AcelaExpress2005
it all depends if it works on the L
it will have cbtc but wont work until the line is readyed for it
how many are there
r142man
Last I remember 2
The 5 line has about 4-5 trains assigned to the 5 line, about 1-2 of them running, matter of fact, I caught one today...6856-6865
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Well I think 5 sets and more to come. I work the No.5 most of the time so I'll keep you updated.
This am there was a 12-9 at 42nd and 8th. According to WCBS AM, the person was crushed.
Not true. The person's body was somewhat intact. Apparently she (it was a woman) came in contact with the third rail and was electrocuted. Fifteen feet of the protection board had to be cut in order to free the body.
To add more to the bleeding, around 5pm, ALL Manhattan Bound E F R and V trains were making LOCAL stops from Continental Ave-Queens Plaza due to a broken rail past 65 St on the Manhattan Bound Express Track. I was on car 3575 headed to Northern at the time. When I pulled into Roosevelt Ave Station, another E was right across the platform. 3575 went from packed to empty b/c the other E left 1st. I stayed on 3575 and saw the workers looking at the rail past 65 St.
The train was moving at a crawl.
Bad day for the E-INDEED!
#3574 E Queens Blvd 8 Ave
I have no idea why people even do this. I understand suicide and everything, but why do I think they do this also for the attraction? Look at all these delays and such. Thanks to a person jumping onto the tracks, they wreak normal commute for everyone!
I'm no physcologist, but I have to feel suicide is often times a passive aggressive act. "I'll show you how much you'll miss me". So it would figure the subway train method would ensure maximum publicity. But obivisously when one does this or comtemplates doing it, they are not in their right mind, so it may be impossible to come up with a reason.
If I was ever of a mind to do it, I would think I would go for the most pain free method, maybe an OD of sleeping pills or something along those lines.
Most of the suicides that I have attended went for a gunshot. One did exhaust in the garage, and one kid (14) hung himself in the barn with a rope.
The last gunshot I was at was a 16 year old who was cleaning his rifle, but failed to start at the breach. That one was ruled accidental: he ran up the stairs calling for his mother, but died there. Learning curve can be a little steap at times.
12-6 is a pretty easy way out: it's quick and usually certain. You might get splattered all over the place, but you won't feel it.
That's not how it's usually done in NYC and environs. Strong anti-gun communities so suicides are more often an overdose or a leap of one sort or another. Shows ya the differences in different parts of the country.
Heck... only 40 or 50 years ago it was NORMAL for kids to bring rifles to school around here. The idea was to try to get something for dinner on the way home!
Heh. Not to worry about me, I live WAY upstate. And yes, warm meat is better than frozen meat any day. Still, more than 150 miles from the city, guns are frowned upon up here as well and you don't see that many gunshot suicides. Homicides are a different story of course. But in the city, the mentality is throwing yourself in front of a train or a bus if the train is more than four blocks away. :)
Just to keep things in perspective, so far this year, less than 1/2 of all the 12-9s have been the result of jumpers. More people were hit walking on the tracks. Last week there was one on the G line where the person attempted to run across the tracks in front of the train. In another on the C line, a guy was hit while (moving his bowels) squatting just outside of the station.
In another on the C line, a guy was hit while (moving his bowels)
squatting just outside of the station.
Where are you when we need you, Mr. Darwin?
Some people don't want their deaths to look like suicides. There's a stigma surrounding suicide that can make things difficult for surviving family members, and many life insurance policies have a suicide exclusion clause.
It often is not absolutely clear-cut whether a 12-9 was in fact a suicide. People have been known to become dizzy and fall off platforms, or get pushed without anyone actually seeing the pushing. A 12-9 suicide, therefore, can leave an element of doubt, which is just what the people may want.
This sort of thing happens quite often with car crashes. When a car goes off a clear road at high speed into a tree or bridge abutment, with alcohol and drug tests being negative, it's often fairly evident what happened. But unless the driver left a note, nothing can be proven.
Actually it was a male who jumped. He was struck by the 1st truck of the E train ans was wedged between the 3rd rail and the protection board. That's a tight space to remain in tact.
Later in the day, the R-143 had its first 12-9 at Halsey. Another jumper but this one survived. Anyone care to guess what the 12-9 count is for this year?
It definately seems like we're hearing more about it this year.
didnt know you were up and running again.... in any case welcome back,and this time[guys] lets have fun with this ...OK?
I'm glad you back I like reading about the subway and think you are the best dave welcome back . I be in nyc in july for two weeks.
There are still a few trains of Redbirds -- four, I think -- left on the 2. Assuming the 2 will return to Manhattan express service when the line to South Ferry is reopened, about 16 minutes will be shaved off the round trip 2 running time. And guess what? It takes 3-4 cars to fill 16 minutes at the 2's rush hour headway. So has the 2 gotten its complete R-142 delivery?
Not yet. There are still cars that are as of this writing, undelivered. Also, there were a group of cars on the sidelines that are now coming out of hibernation. It appears that the 2/5 are pooling Redbirds as well as having their respective R-142 sets.
-Stef
Why is the 2 getting more trains than it needs for service? Or is this the sign of an upcoming service increase on the 2?
I don't know about service increases, but anything is possible.
Not sure about R-142 Reliability at this point, but some Redbirds are being kept for the time being. With any luck the 2 should be completely R-142 at some future time.
-Stef
The #2 line might actually keep at least 2-3 Redbird trains until at least September...
Cleanairbus
With any luck
Bad luck, you must mean! (I'm one of the R-142 haters, remember?)
I only like the R142A's. I hate the R142(BOM) cars. I came to the No.5 to enjoy the last of the Redbirds so after there gone I'm going to the No.1 or 6 Lines or Learn a New Div.
Why not head on over to B Division and take a Slant to lunch! Ever driven one? Ah yes, they're a treat, that's for sure. Diamond "Q", northbound, get a fast Slant and it's a bit of heaven.
wayne
Don't all lines get more trains than they need for service, in case a couple are out of order?
- Lyle Goldman
so there are still redbirds doing express on the #2 ???
The 2 runs local until the line to South Ferry reopens (except when Times Square tower has one of its frequent whims).
There are approximately four 2 trains of Redbirds remaining. I saw one yesterday (going the other way, unfortunately).
The Redbirds will most likely be gone from the 2 line by summer's end. For the last two weekends, the 2 line was 100% R142.
Sniff.
Tissue?
That's it boys......no more R142s to the #2 Line. It is now up to the #5 to get the R142s running. Five ten car trainsets on the rail with two more coming in this week. The first scheduled maintainance of the R142s by the 180/239 crew was a great success thanks to our Dept. Supt. and the supervisors. In two weeks there will be two more ten car trainsets in for SM. I have been removing Redbird records from the maintainance files...putting them to rest. The best news of course is that this site is up and running again to keep in touch with my friends and co-workers. CI Peter. CED - WE MAKE TRAINS GO!
Hey Peter I had the R142 PM put-in and was stuck with it for 2 full trips. The first trip no problem but the second trip I found out there is no Utica Destination signs so the TSS ordered the train to be programmed for Bowling Green and Manual announcements after. We had to problems.
1. I programmed it as a Bronx Local but the < 5 > remained and wouldn't change.
2. C/R operating car 6871 has No working PA or IC. T/O had to make announcement for me.
3. TOD said AAS problems in cars 6872,73,74. B cars where only effected.
I tryed to get a Redbird for the Utica trip but the T/D said you R142 quilified so its you to go.
I want my Redbirds!!!
Wait a minute. I can't believe my eyes. Utica is the scheduled terminal on a good number of southbound 5 trips, yet there's no way to properly sign such a train?! I thought we had it bad on the West Side with our "This is a Bronx-bound 2 EXPRESS! train" gaffe.
Thats Right!!! I believe there are about 14 trains AM+PM that Terminate at Utica AVE and no way to program it as a last stop. The TSS wants us to Program it to Bowling Green then make manual announcements.
What about New Lots? That's also a terminal for a few 5 trains.
Don't all trains from 238th end up at either Utica or New Lots? I know there's signage for the north terminal -- shouldn't there be signage for the south terminal?
It looks like whoever did the programming got all the info straight off the map, which is notoriously incomplete when it comes to IRT terminals.
No New Lots. The only #5 Line destinations that are Programable are
North South
Dyre E 180
E 180 Bowling Green
Neried Ave Flatbush
That's absurd. Why so limited? What's the point of software-driven signs when it's made to be even less flexible than the rollsigns they replaced?
I see somebody isn't learning from his (or her) mistakes.
There is absolutely no reason the fancy automated system on an R-142 should not be able to be programmed on-the-fly as a train of any arbitrary route designation making any sequence of stops physically possible. The train should automatically adjust the announcements and the destination display. Ideally it should also automatically adjust the routing ("7 AV" vs. "LEX AV" vs., in theory, "FLUSHING") and the local/express status.
I predict that within ten years, the current automated announcement/signage system will be disabled. Perhaps it will be replaced with what I suggest above. Perhaps it will be replaced with a low-tech system as on the R-44/46's or an even lower-tech rollsign system. Perhaps trains will just roll around with no signage at all. I don't know which, but seeing the problems the inflexibility of the system has caused in the past year alone (granted, a lot has happened in the past year), I can't imagine it'll suffice for the next decade.
Let's just hope that the TA makes the appropriate modifications to the R-143 and R-160 orders before we end up with a city full of anonymous trains.
BTW, 6361-6370 in service on the 5...rode in cra #6366...rode pretty nice
Cleanairbus
6436-40 are also in # 5 Line service
6436-40 have entered service also, coupled to 6871-75.
-Stef
dont you notice the announcements when the R142 is running on the 5? They sound kinda funny...First it says "This is a manhattan bound 5 express train" fast and low pitched, then it says the next station slowly, like: "The next stop is Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall." Don't know if anyone's noticed, I am still new to this forum :-)
I've noticed they have three voices two women one man has any one else noticed this also?
Dave: you hit one of my sore points about 'new tech.' These trainsets' software adjustments are NOT in TA inspection hands! If you see AAS syncronisation problems or failures in destination signs/announcements, make sure that RTO has it on paper to pass on to CED. WE are a team that keeps our city alive and TA management will go after Bombardier and its vendors IF informed. CI Peter
It seems to me then that the Redbirds are providing extra service while the 2 is running local. Like I said in a previous post, the last two weekends, the 2 was 100% R142s. It looks like when the 2 return express, the Redbirds wont be there...........
Another poster mentioned that there are two Redbird trainsets still running...supervisors told me that there are far more units still on the line and I can confirm that because I've been cleaning up the SM/TT files. Soon, soon, all will be gone. CI Peter
Redbirds come in now as a married pair to keep some car inspectors busy. Others come in to 239th for the #5 switchover...flagged cars really stink. New Tech is good. CI Peter
What I am about to say is old news from over a month ago, but here goes. The R142 BOMBardier cars have an intermittant nasty habit of losing all the air from their main resevior tanks thereby causing an emergency brake application due to a lack of brake pipe air. Cause unknown. Additionally, a number of 6300 and 6400 series cars have yet to turn a wheel in customer service partly due to cannibalization. Is there anyone out there to prove me wrong?
Well everyone who rides in to Manhattan during the evening rush using the Queens Boulevard Line knows the pain. A broken rail along the Northern Boulevard Corridor, cause all express service to be suspended going to Manhattan. In turn 4 lines were running express. It took me 36 minutes to go between 71 Avenue and Roosevelt Avenue on the EXPRESS track! What hell Queens Boulevard riders have to pay, luckily I ride it only once a week.
Does anyone (i.e. David Cole?) know when the State St Subway was built? Who built it? I looked on the Chicago section of this site and didn't find it...
Thanks
Alicia
It was a WPA/New Deal funded job opened in 1943. In the early years, service was Howard-Jackson Park or Englewood via the now non revenue ramp just south of Roosevelt Road to the South Side L.
Construction of both the State St. and Dearborn St. subways began shortly before WWII, but construction was halted by a shortage of materials and in deference to the war effort. When it was realized that the existing loop L was seriously short of capacity due to the extra wartime traffic, the priority of completing the State St. subway was bumped up, and it opened in 1943. The Dearborn St. subway wasn't completed until after the war ended, opening in 1951 (as far south as LaSalle/Congress, extended into the Eisenhower expressway median in 1958 when the new line there opened).
-- Ed Sachs
They had to go out and round up all of the 4000-series cars for subway service. At the time, they were the only all-steel cars in the entire system.
The city wasn't proud of the fact that they were running 20 year old 4000 series steel L cars through their new subway. The brochures printed at the time showed an artist's drawing of a BMT Bluebird in the State Street Subway.
-- Ed Sachs
Unfortunately, they didn't have any choice. Right after CTA was formed, they started looking into acquiring more modern L equipment. Enter the 6000-series cars. Exit the Green Hornets (and, for that matter, all Windy City streetcars).
In its first six years (10/17/43-7/31/49), the subway was served by Evanston-Jackson Park (including Howard-Jackson Park short turns) and Ravenswood-Englewood/Normal Park trains. The more recent Howard-Jackson Park and Howard-Englewood pairings (which lasted until 1993) came in with CTA's 8/1/49 route restructuring, at which time Ravenswood was returned to the Loop "L," and Evanston was changed to a mostly-shuttle operation with limited through operation to the Loop.
Alan Follett
thanks to both you and Ed for correction/amplification. My knowledge is stronger after 1955 when I started riding.
Thanks for all the responses. Very helpful.
Alicia
Doesn't the MTA realize that the people in the last 5 cars of an R-62A 7 have no way to contact or reach the crew while the train is heading southbound? The transverse cab is at the 7th car, but the conductor moves between 5 and 6 and the T/O is normally located in the first car! Possible solutions:
1: Knock down the transverse cabs.
2: Have the conductor use the transverse cab in car 7 for southbound trips and point at the ///Alternate Position/// board instead.
There is no problem northbound, since the T/O is in the first car, the empty transverse is in 5 and the C/R is between 6/7.
"Doesn't the MTA realize that the people in the last 5 cars of an R-62A 7 have no way to contact or reach the crew while the train is heading southbound?"
So what? NYCT and its predecessors have been running cars with locked storm doors for many, many years. Currently, the R-44 through R-68A series on the BMT/IND are that way, and prior to that, the BMT "Standards" had locked storm doors. What's different here, besides that it hasn't happened on the #7 before?
David
Hmm, it makes no sense at the passengers' leisure as you mentioned. Though, I'd like the 2nd option, it would really benefit the conductor. I mean, he has to force himself from cab to cab, going through the elements and angry at the passengers with no remorse! It's not fair, considering the R62 rolling stock used on the mainline, utilizes its full-width cab.
It's rather ironic that how the 7 line has the leisure of longer cars, it's also creating all of these annoyances. That probably explains for the 10-car tests they did in April. If they could only move the boards... About them, what's the difference between a black/white one and a red/yellow one?
You mean longer trains, not longer cars.
I'm not that familiar with the term alternate board. What does it mean and can a I guess from the above post that it is a red/yellow board.
Thanks
Maybe once the 7 is all R62A they will move the boards to the current location of the transverse cab. I would assume that since all 4 or 5 trains have the cab in that location, they must be doing it for some reason.
The alternate position board is already at the location of the transverse cab.
That's exactly my point. Since it's there, it doesn't utilize the full-width cab.
Wouldn't it be easier to just turn around the trains so the transverse cab is at the board?
You can't. There isn't a loop track at the Corona Yards, which explains why the railfan window-end is always facing Manhattan-bound. However, this will change when the Corona Yards get a makeover.
Well, perhaps I should be asking why new R-62A moves to the Flushing line aren't facing the opposite direction.
But surely there's some way to turn a train around. It could be looped through Stillwell -- roundabout, but it works. Or it could be taken apart in the yard and reassembled with the six singles at the Flushing end rather than the Manhattan end, which would do the trick just as well.
Really? In its present condition, how can it be done at the Corona Yards?
I gave two options.
One: Hook up an R-33 single to the Manhattan end (and to the Flushing end, just in case), run down to Coney Island via the Sea Beach or West End, run back into Manhattan via the Brighton, and run back out to Flushing.
Two: Don't flip the entire train around, but instead just rearrange the cars. Send the five-car set onto one track and the six singles onto another. Then send the five-car set back followed by the six singles. Now the five-car set is at the Manhattan end.
Way easier with self propelled cars!
I'm not sure I understand your comment. The only reason for the R-33 singles, if that's what you're referring to, is that they have tripcocks on both sides. The R-62A's alone could get to Coney Island and back just fine, but the protection offered by the signals would be reduced. Or was it something else I said?
I guess the existence of the red/yellow alternate board is to allow conductors to use a different operating position if one of the cabs in the regular one isn't usable for some reason. Since either way he's looking at 6 cars one way, and 5 cars the other, it shouldn't matter which cab he uses.
Yes, except the R-44 through R-68a all have:
1: The C/R or T/O can unlock all the doors from any cab by turning a switch.
2: The storm window can be kicked out in an emergency.
The point I was trying to make, and perhaps I didn't make it well enough, is that the R-44 through R-68A have locked storm doors at both ends of every car and no customer intercom. The R-62A cars have locked storm doors only at the ends of every five-car unit and (I believe) at both ends of the single car, albeit with no customer intercom. If people are concerned about the locked storm doors, then riders of unitized R-62A cars (or the leftover car in an 11-car #7 consist) have it easy compared to riders of R-44 through R-68A cars.
In the event of an emergency requiring the crew's attention, would a rider of a train of R-44 through R-68A cars be able to attract the crew's attention any more easily than a rider of a unitized R-62A? Of course not. And yet these trains of R-44 through R-68A cars are out on the road 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and thousands of people ride them in complete safety.
David
Still, in the event of an emergency evacuation the passengers on the R-62a would have to wait for the C/R or someone with a key to come by and unlock three doors (what if he forgot? What would the passengers resort to if they thought he had forgotten?). On the 75' cars all he has to do is turn a switch and everyone has free passage.
And a passenger who absolutely needs to get out of an R-44/46/68/68A car can knock out the window, by design, and unlock the door into the next car. The little window in the R-62A cab door is kind of small even if it can be knocked out.
If the C/R used the transverse cab going southbound (and I'm relying on you guys to have placement correct), upon arrival at Times Sq, he would have to a) open the doors to let everyone out; b)close down and dezone the train; c)key himself off; d:) have the new C/R zone up at the other operating position. This stunt would also have to happen again at Main St to get the new southbound C/R back in the transverse.
To head off the next question - current policy requires the C/R and T/O to occupy different sections of trains with multi-car links. Therefore, the C/R could not stay in the transverse cab going north because he and the T/O would be in the same set of a 5 car link. (again, I'm working on what you all have been saying and assuming only one transverse cab in the middle of the train. The presence of two would nullify this arguement, but would still result in the zoning problem mentioned above.
To head off the next question - current policy requires the C/R and T/O to occupy different sections of trains with multi-car links.
Why?
If there's no good reason for this policy, how much of a challenge would it be to drop it?
The reason is that if a train made up of two five-car sections were to accidently decouple, there would be a crew member in each section. Personally, I don't recall this scenario ever happening. as for how much of a challenge to change it, I'd say that the proverbial snowball has better chances.
The last that I have heard about a pull-apart taking place was when the R44's came back from GOH and there were 2 pull-aparts. That was some years ago, but it shows that it can indeed happen.
I have pictures of the new Bombardier M-7 cars for LIRR during testing at Penn Station today...platform and tunnel wall clearance was the main issue today, that's why u see the added padding on the sides of the train...
Here is the message with the pictures on my message board, TransitBoard...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Cleaanirbus Transit Page Webmaster
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
Kind of what the offspring woould look like between an M1 and an R143. Freaky! But not too bad looking. So, uh, what's with that faint yellowish stripe on the side?
:-) Andrew
That's a reflection of the yellow on the platform edge...:-)
Carlton
Cleanairbus
They're great pics however they're some SMUGLY looking cars. I smell a RAT.
Why? BUMLARDIER or better known as Bombardier. The R62A's braking is shot-very jolty and will make you nautious. (Rode 2153 on 7 today-proves my point). The R142s being a disaster that they are. 6491-6495 not being able to move 1 inch at CCY. And now this HIDEOUS M-7?! This is what's replacing the M-1?!
It's bad enough that the DEM Engines are a disaster, The GP38-2's are long gone and so are the 2800 and 2900 series passenger cars but now BUMLARDIER CARS to add to LIRR's problems?!
Another Point: By the summer, LIRR'S borrowing AMTRAK PASSENGER CARS for the Montauk Branch. Why not F40PH also?
Sorry to say but the LIRR is just adding gas to the fire by getting these cars. THEY'RE SMUGLY and will cause even more hell than what the situation is now! Give me an M-1 anyday over this GRUBBAGE!
#9440 M-1 LIRR
It's bad enough that the DEM Engines are a disaster, The GP38-2's are long gone and so are the 2800 and 2900 series passenger cars but now BUMLARDIER CARS to add to LIRR's problems?!
Another Point: By the summer, LIRR'S borrowing AMTRAK PASSENGER CARS for the Montauk Branch. Why not F40PH also?
Yeah the LIRR has been downgraded from a very interesting railroad to total utilitarian. I miss the GP38's, the F units, etc. Each train was different. You never knew what was coming when you saw the light in the distance. Now all the trains look the same.....no character.
Now what's this about Amtrak coaches? Is this true? What are they using them for....parlor service?
I heard that the F40 will not clear the overhead canopy at Jamaica. Additionally, AMTRAK is having their own issues with coach availability and car shortages. I don't see them having extra cars to loan or lease to the LIRR.
" don't see them having extra cars to loan or lease to the LIRR."
Not necessarily so.
AMTK has many cars laid up waiting repairs without funds. (Or so a previous poster said.)
If LIRR wanted to lease a few of these, the LIRR would be pleased to fix them up.
The LIRR does not know how to fix anything. Their track record on car maintance is abysmal.
LIRR runs (or did run) a big shop for repairing freight cars. Maybe the NY&A has it now. There was money to be made in that:
"Gee, BNSF, your car seems to have a defect, it needs to be fixed before we can interchange it" For most railroads you get as many of your own cars fixed as you fix for others, and so it is a push, but not so for the LIRR.
Don't blame LIRR, blame the MTA because the MTA execs have some skeam with Bombadier so money given to Bombadier is given back to the execs private accounts. Also I heard on another board that the MTA and Bombadier have offices in the same building as Bombadier (conflict of intrest?, no competitive biding). Personally the MTA needs execs that care about profitability (I know thats impossible) or the least amount of money loss.
Not to mention that one of the top BOMBardier suits is Peter Stangl. The same Peter Stangl, former head of the MTA.
Not to that the M-1hasn't been a reliable car for the LIRR over the past 30yrs ,but they are that 30yrs old .Plus I had the misfortune of getting a train of M-1's on the Pt Washington branch a few weeks back when it was 96 degrees and they ran them w/o air conditioning.
Yeah... back in the 70s and early 80s the A/Cs failed frequently. They would use those yellow sticks to prop the storm doors open to get some ventilation. When leaving NYP I walways got onboard the train first, and headed to the seat by the conductor's window. (I knew that the conductor was not using the window in the car I was riding.)
Problem is you gotta stop the train and reset those beasts from the outside.
Elias
I agree that the front of the car looks like a R143 w/ the black paint, but the exterior sides of the train look similar to the Acela Express, in my opinion. -Nick
If you visit Montreal there commuter railroad AMT has cars that look very similar. But the seats will probably be different. The side light (indicates if door is closed and other info) is exactly whats on the AMT's cars (electric overhead 25,000v, 60hz, not the diesels).
So, when do we get to see them out on the road? I wanna see one in action already!!!
Anyone got an 'in' on the testing schedule?
Expect to see these ugly bad boys on the rails, with pieces of the cars falling on the Long Beach ROW by around the fall of this year...please do not quote me on this, as it is only a rumor and speculation.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Are you sure Jeff H. isn't working on this project. One shot has a test wire running out of the cab windown.
Jeff H. is know to run stuff like that >G<.
Hmm, don't know, wasn't relaly paying too much attention to that...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Lou,
I am offended.
You know I ALWAYS have at least TWO wires!
The front of the M-7's look like the R-143 and the side of the Cars looks similar to the Acela Passenger Cars, especially the windows.
-AcelaExpress2005
I kind of like the new cars... I know I shouldn't, since the MNRR equivalent will mean the death of my favorite ACMUs.
I don't find them ugly, and if it weren't for the transverse cab I'd be anxiously awaiting their arrival.
At least they have large side windows, similar to the Acela. They also remind me of the NJT Comet V.
Is the M-7 backward compatible with the M-1 and 3? I doubt it, but you never know!
It's a little early to be thinking about this year's Try Transit Festival, but some turkey on Harry's site posted Saturday October 5 as the date without giving any source of information, so consider it an internet rumor.
Dave:
Thanks! A thousand thanks for bringing Subtalk back!! IT WAS MISSED!!!
Eric Dale Smith
To all Dallas-Ft. Worth railfans,
I read recently that the privately owned Tandy Subway in Forth Worth Texas might be closed in September. Is there any plans by the Fort Worth transit authority to take over the line? It would be a shame if the line would be permanently closed.
I don't know if you're aware, but the Tandy Subway serves parking lots and a mall. Its sole purpose is to bring folks from the parking lots to the mall. It has no real role in public transit.
-Hank
How big is the mall system? (stations etc.) Anyone know a link to any photos?
Right here:
TANDY SUBWAY
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe the line ran a little over one mile. Too bad, it still could be made useful.
What do you expect from the oil-rich state?
This was the original purpose when it was opened in 1963. Now it looks like that many downtown workers take advantage of the free parking to ferry them downtown.
oh no !! & i wanted to see it !! i guess DART won !
To think the guys in the shop has been buying MBTA PCCs and Chicago's PCC rapid transit cars just to strip the PCC motors, trucks and controls. They were planning to extend the track out to Trinity Park Zoo, but the only thing the did was to move the station near the barn in the direction of the river. Ho well, at least I got to see the before, during, and after of the rebuilding of the cars. Dave posted all the photos I submitted for all to see.
Phil Hom
(Who lived in Fort Worth 1974-1976)
did the DART system take over the route ???
DART only covers the Dallas end of the Metroplex.
yep
Fort Worth is the western half of the area callled the Metroplex. From downtown Fort Worth to downtown Dallas is about 40 miles apart.
DART serves Dallas and the "T" serves Fort Worth.
These two cities have a joint commuter rail line called Trinity River Express (TRE). They started with a set of real Budd RDC and now they also have some ex-Go Transit equipment from Toronto. They (TRE) also leased a pair of F40 and cars from Amtrak.
When a plane arrives in DFW airport, they always seems to leave out the city of Fort Worth. The dividing line between Dallas and Fort Worth runs right down the middle of DFW. American Airline's terminal is in Fort Worth. Sometimes a Fort Worth native would correct the announcer about the arrival to Dallas by saying "I'm on the wrong plane! I wanted to go to Fort Worth"
Included in the Metroplex is a city known as Arlington. That city is known as the largest city in the USA WITHOUT public transportation.
My guess is that downtown Fort Worth would admit they made a mistake in closing their little light rail line. The north side of downtown is boarded by the Trinity River, the south side by the former T&P (MP now UP) trackage, the east with the BNSF (former ATSF). The west is the only place they can go, but it is already developed. The "subway" shoud be expended and downtown FW should be a car-free zone.
BTW Radio Shack brought some property that was low-income city housing. The people are force to move somewhere else. That property (and the parking lot) will be the staging point for construction equipment for the new Radio Shack headquarters.
Trinity Railway Express also leased railcars from Connecticut DOT in the beginning. httt://donross.railspot.com under Trinity Railway Express has color photos of all the equipment used by TRE.
According to a map that I have, there appears to be an unused track extending past Spring Valley Station on the Pascack Valley Line to Suffern Station on the Port Jervis Line. Would it be feasible to extend Pascack Valley service to Suffern along this track?
- Lyle Goldman
That track is torn up between the yard west of the Spring Velley station and Tallman (at approximately where the ROW goes under route 59). Track stille xists from that spot to Suffern but it's in bad shape and limited to freights of very small consists under 10mph.
So, no, it won't be extended anytime soon.
--Mark
Why do you want to do that, Lyle - other than the obvious railfan reasons?
Well, it would provide convenient rail access from stations along the Pascack Valley Line in New Jersey and New York to Suffern and other stops on the Port Jervis Line, wouldn't it?
- American Lyle
Yes, but AFAIK the Pascack Valley line has only 3 or 4 trains in the morning towards Hoboken, then 3 or 4 in the afternoon the other way. Not really much service to make connections to at Suffern, although if you were really trying to get from Hoboken to Spring Valley in the morning rush, it would be nice. What would really make it a useful line, however, would be some passing loops, as I understand it is single track for its whole length.
What would really make it a useful line, however, would be some passing loops, as I understand it is single track for its whole length.
There was a plan to double track the Pascack Valley line a couple years ago so reverse commute trains could run without interfering with freight trains that also use the single track during the day. The plan was deferred and the capital redeployed elsewhere.
You mean the whole Pascack Valley Line, in both New Jersey and New York, from Secaucus to Spring Valley, ONLY HAS ONE TRACK?
- Lyle Goldman
You mean the whole Pascack Valley Line, in both New Jersey and New York, from Secaucus to Spring Valley, ONLY HAS ONE TRACK?
That's my understanding. Actually, the plan isn't to double-track the line, but to install six passing sidings.
Bob
What about the New Jersey Transit Bergen Line? How many tracks does that line have?
- Lyle Goldman
What about the New Jersey Transit Bergen Line? How many tracks does that line have?
Two, IIRC.
It would be a good idea to consolidate the two yards into one, yes. But that map is horribly outdated. (You're using the PDF map from the NJDOT website, right? It looks like they just ran a GIS to PDF converter on an old GIS map.)
Actually, I was looking at a relatively current version of Hagstrom's Rockland County map. I haven't looked at the NJDOT map yet, but I am downloading it as we speak.
- Lyle Goldman
Actually, I was looking at a relatively current version of Hagstrom's Rockland County map.
Hah. Hah. Tee. Hee. LOL. "Current version of Hagstrom's . . . map" is a good example of an oxymoron. In my experience, the most recent edition of any Hagstrom map is generally years out of date as to changes in rail lines. For example, the 1997 edition of their Hudson County map shows a track running on Hudson Street from Exchange Place south to Exxex Street and continuing around the corner on Essex as far as Greene Street in Jersey City. Since this was in pre-HBLR days, I can only guess how long this phantom track had persisted only on the maps after it had been gone from the streets. And then there's the pair of tracks it shows crossing Washington Blvd near 2nd or 3rd Street, also in Jersey City. And so on.
My Hagstroms maps from circa 1995 still show the Putnam line (freight line between the Hudson and Harlem lines).
Exactly!!!
My Hagstroms maps from circa 1995 still show the Putnam line (freight line between the Hudson and Harlem lines).
Heck, I had a map from the mid-1980's that still showed passenger stations on the Put! Passenger service ended in 1958, in other words almost 30 years before the map came out.
I have a map from the 80's that still has a station or two on the Bay Ridge Line shown, although they are not a solid black rectangle, but an outlined white rectangle.
Heck, I had a map from the mid-1980's that still showed passenger stations on the Put!
Where were the stations on the Putnam Line?
Heck, I had a map from the mid-1980's that still showed passenger stations on the Put!
Where were the stations on the Putnam Line?
There were a few in Yonkers, those are about the only ones I can recall although there certainly were others.
Yorktown Hts, Carmel
I happen to have my Lower Westchester map handy. Going north from the city limits:
In Yonkers:
Lincoln, Dunwoodie, Bryn Mawr Park, Nepperhan, Gray Oaks, Nepera Park
Then in various towns (these are mostly not village names, or even names I recognize from growing up in Westchester): Mt. Hope, Chauncey, Ardsley (an actual village), Woodlands, Worthington, Elmsford (a village), East View, and then off the map.
James: The Putnam Division ran from Sedgewick Avenue Terminal in The Bronx parallel to the Hudson Line to BN Junction(north of University Heights) and then continued on its own until Putnam Junction on the Harlem Line.
Put passenger trains actually terminated at Brewster coming in from the north. The last through passenger train from Sedgewick Avenue was #947 which left at 547PM on Thursday,May 29,1958. Passenger service on the very north end of the lines using the Harlem Division's Lake Mahopac Branch lasted until April 2,1959. Portions of the line continued to have freight service into the 80's. About the only portion of the line still active is the Y at Put Junction on Metro-North's Harlem Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I was on that last Putnam Division train, rode the rear vestibule of the last car all the way from Highbridge where I grew up to Brewster, came back on the Harlem line with a locootive hauled train that made local stops in the Bronx; got off at Tremont, took the 36 bus the rest of the way home. Two RS-3 Alco's lead uit 8259, 5 steel coaches, engineer veteran Bill Kennedy. I had the honors of seeing steam 4-6-0's there in early childhood, then Lima Hamiltons, Baldwins, finally Alco RS-'s.
Ed: Now thats being part of history. The demise of the PUT was a little before my time but I did ride the last CNJ train into Jersey City the night before the Aldene Plan took effect.
Best Wishes,Larry, RedbirdR33
I was on that one too, wiyh Ji Smith, and Amos Hewitt from New Haven CT and a coupe other friends. Also for te last Weehawken nd Hoboken ferries, was a conductor on next to the last BN train west from Livingston before MRL took over. Like a lot of other fans I must be a rail mortician. Sadly I missed the end of the North Shore out of Chi. !@#$%^&*+_ I can't get back into the frame to correct m typos!
This is almost in my back yard.
The MTA bought the right of way from Spring Valley to Suffern a number of years ago, to protect it in case they want to use it in the future. At one point there was talk of increasing service by deadheading early morning trains from Hoboken to Suffern, to Spring Valley. This has long since been shelved.
At this time they are in the final stages of expanding the Spring Valley yard, and there are plans to install several passing sidings between Spring Valley and Hoboken. With this, the likelyhood of needing the line from Spring Valley to Suffern is small, however, the MTA will probably hold on to it.
BTW - Current service on the Pascack Valley line consists of seven morning inbound trains, and nine evening outbound. The last 2 deadhead back.
The MTA bought the right of way from Spring Valley to Suffern a number of years ago, to protect it in case they want to use it in the future. At one point there was talk of increasing service by deadheading early morning trains from Hoboken to Suffern, to Spring Valley. This has long since been shelved.
I suppose the line could be useful if there's ever a new rail crossing built over the Hudson in the vicinity of the Tappan Zee Bridge.
"I suppose the line could be useful if there's ever a new rail crossing built over the Hudson in the vicinity of the Tappan Zee Bridge."
Not really - The former right of way East of Nanuet and over in the direction of the river is long since gone.
oh well i just wanted to ask something about what seems this long
gap between numbers !!....????.... a R 62 but no R-60 !!!
lol !!!
& who determines what number a subway car gets anyway ???
lol !!
and there was never an R -50 !!! why not folks ??
lol !!!
You'll probably want to check out this page and see what the R50, R70, Rwhatever that never went into revenue service was ... they really DID use all the numbers but "(R)evenue" contracts weren't always a fleet of cars. Sometimes they were other needed items ...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rroster.htm
howdy! :)
yea because it always was a question as to why there never was
a R 50 R 60 R 70 R 80 R 90....lol !!
But there were each of those - ya just don't wanna RIDE in any of them. Lemme rephrase that ... unless you're a FOAMER you don't wanna ride in any of them. :)
the boy just don't understand.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well ... I know *I* would be psyched if I was invited for a ride on a set of R-80's although I'd make it a point to throw my shovel overboard to avoid the extra extra work. :)
wait a minute "U" 2 "U" "R"......sayin' there was a
R-50 R-60 R-70 R-80 R-90...??
come on you "eastcoast experts" !!!----lol !!!!!
lets git' it on !!!------lol !!!
( R we having FUN or whaaaaaaaaatttt ) !!!..........lol !!!
he he he he he he he he he he he he ........
ok what did the R50 R60 R70 R80 R90 >>>>>>>>>>look like ???
eh ??
I just checked the link that Selkirk referred to with the complete list of R equipment. I was intrigued by the R-39. It said "120 Passenger Cars for BMT & IRT elevated lines (never purchased)"
Does anyone know anything about it? I assume they were special lightweight cars the TA was planning on getting for the Myrtle and Bronx Third Av Els. It would have been the first time the IND & BMT used the same cars. (I mean cars built intended for both divisions, I DO know about the Low-V's on the Culver Shuttle)
My expectation (I don't have the contract date so I'm only guessing here) is that those would probably have gone to the Myrtle and third avenue el as isolated lines. The number would sound about right.
They were going to be like IRT versions of the R-38
>>I was intrigued by the R-39. It said "120 Passenger Cars for BMT & IRT elevated lines (never purchased)"
Does anyone know anything about it?<<
Yes, the R-39 cars if built and delivered would replace all the Q-Types on the Myrtle Ave line and Low-V's on the 3rd Ave Line. But, someone felt that it would be cheaper to close and demolish the structures than replace their rolling stock.
Bill "Newkirk"
Some of the contract numbers were used when the cars were rebuild with air conditioning. The R32 may not really be an R32, and the R36 is not really an R36 when rebuilt. Look at the R11. Only the car design people called them R34. The wheel turing lathe has an R series contract number. Maybe the replacement trucks on the R46 is another R contract.
The R1 was for the body only (a standard practice) and the R2 was for trucks and motors. The BRT installed the motors and control on the standards in the 39th Street Shops. They got the shells from the builders.
Phil Hom
Nobody seems to have answered the "why not" -- the missing R-numbers aren't really missing, but they are used for various other types of equipment besides the passenger rolling stock.
You can go to Joe Korman's subwy site and find a list. It's rather interesting what's in the R-numbers!
yea that is one hell of a good website !!!
love it to death !!!
man i cant wait to come home to visit NYC this late summer !!!
woooooooooooo
Dewd ... step away from the shrooms. Heh. Talk nice to Train Dude and perhaps he can get you a ride in one of the R-80 ballast hoppers. :)
Or better yet, an R-58 Refuse Flat Car. Just the ticket on a hot humid August night in the NYC subway system.
Hahahah ... Actually, what I'd get my rocks off on is mounting a lawn chair on an R2 with a chickenstick and go for a ride. :)
Chickenstick?????
Wha's that?
The "chicken stick" is actually a broadcast transmitter kinda thing - it's a long, insulated POLE with a metal tip on the end connected to a ground wire whose purpose is to poke and prod at "bleeder resistors" inside a transmitter cabinet to discharge charged capacitors at voltage potentials of 50,000 volts or more to ensure that all current is removed before you go and start touching high voltage components for maintenance.
This guy at CIY had a similar kinda pole that he'd touch to bugs or hot third rail that he would lash up to his own little magic box that in turn connected to the four wires of traction motors to "give them a zitz" to see if the repair "held" ... sometimes he'd fly down the track, sometimes he'd make smoke. Like I said, this guy was NUTS. :)
sorry folks! i do not smoke - or drink !!!
lol !!!!!!
Dang! Where's yer sense of ADVENTURE? These are elephant times. Massive doses of drugs are in order. :)
ok ..........you said ..........
"Dang! Where's yer sense of ADVENTURE? These are elephant times. Massive doses of drugs are in order. :)""
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I can answer dat' real good !!
My drug is rail transit & shooting them on video & photo/stills!!
NOW DAT' IS A REAL DRUG ADDICTION !!!!!!!!
no kiddin its almost like having "SEX" with some fine looking chick!
@ I do have to confess my addiction to the starbucks & the coffee
bean drug stores ( caffene ) MAN I AM HOOKED ON DAT' DRUG !!!
( but ) the ultimate HIGH is a in cab ride or ""railfan window view""
@ """Massive doses of drugs are in order""" ....!!!
I cannot wait to step off the greyhound in nyc with my cameras to
INJECT MYSELF WITH THE DRUG OF RAIL TRANSIT IN NYC etc......
!!!!!Massive doses of drugs are in order!!!!!!!!
MAN DO I AGREE WITH YOU 100% .....( oh well i admit mine ) ..lol!!
so dont worry bout' me any longer i am HOOKED ON RAIL TRANSIT DRUG!
>>>>>>>>>lol !!!
thankz take care of yourself ........salaamallah
One too
many trips
to Starbucks today...huh?
Peace,
ANDEE
Isn't that FIVEbucks? (no free refills)
This project is costing hundereds of millions of dollars, but I fully support it. According to news a few weeks ago, the 1/9 will be back in full service two months early; on or around 9/30...just 1 year and 29 days after the destruction occured. I must say that I'm impressed on the speed of this project. When everything first occured, we thought it would take a few years to get all the stations open. I assume that when the 1/9 is fully back, then the 2 will start going express again? -Nick
A while back I bought on ebay an IRT Token.
I know that it is from the early 1930's when the IRT had it minted in anticipation of being granted a fare increase fron 5 cents to 7 or 8 cents.
I have been told by several people that there were 3 varieties made.
Does anyone out there have any further information on these different varieties?
Plus any other related information would be appreciated (exact year minted, how many were minted etc, etc, etc.)
I am sure out among the wise guys - whoops - knowledgeable individuals out there someone must have some clue.
Thanks,
Allan
I believe after the IRT lost their chance to raise the fare, they sold their tokens to PATH.
>>I believe after the IRT lost their chance to raise the fare, they sold their tokens to PATH. <<
No they didn't. This happened in the 1930's. PATH did not come along until the 1960's.
The predesser Hudson & Manhattan had their own token with a "H" stamped out.
PATH used tokens with a "1" stamped out.
There are several accounts of the IRT selling their tokens to the H&M, who then melted them down to make the "H" tokens. So I tend to believe this happened. Before tokens, the H&M used tickets. I have quite a few of the tokens/tickets in my collection and can post scans if anyone is interested.
An IRT token? Next you're gonna tell us you have an IRT MetroCard.
Ah David, skeptical as ever.
Prior to my purchase I had only seen 2 of them. One at the Transit Museum and one on Joe Korman's site:
[url]http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/tokens/othertokens.htm[/url]
I never dreamied I would ever get my hands on one and jumped on it when it was offered on ebay. Amazingly the seller called it a Manhattan Elevated token. No one else bid for it and I got it for an amazing low $6.00.
I hope the link works if not cut & paste the link.
Allan
You're back on SubTalk, remember? Regular html works on subtalk. The [url][/url] is only on Harry's Forum!
I confess i never figured out how to use regular html.
So when you find a working link on this forum, right click your mouse on the page, and then click "view source" and see how it was done.
: )
Oh yes,
The IRT DID have a token that they were going to use when they were able to raise their fare. They had taken NYC to court and were confident of victory. However they lost the case and it forced them into receivership.
This was before unification in 1940.
Was this really why the IRT entered receivership? I'd never heard this before. (I've never heard any other explanation either, and have wondered why it did.)
Mvh Tim
It was the main reason.
The IRT could not operate at a profit or break even as long as the fare remained 5 cents. As a result costs outweighed the revenues and hence bankrupcy and receivership.
That makes sense to me. I'd just never heard the whole token story before. Thanks.
Mvh Tim
Then as soon as the City took over the IRT & BMT they raised the fare.
Mr rt__:-(
"Then as soon as the City took over the IRT & BMT they raised the fare."
Not until 1948.
As a member of AVA, American Vecturist Assoc. I can help you with this. They have a catolog of mass transit tokens, mostly in the USA.
From page 383 of their 5th edition (1996):
- Observe = Interboro Rapid Transit Co. IRT
- Reverse = Good For One Fare IRT
No production number available & I don't see any others labeled IRT.
Also in the Manhattan section are:
- 3rd Ave RxR (Omnibus logo)
- 3rd Ave RxR (Streetcar logo)
- 3rd Ave RxR "To Cable Line"
- NYC Transit Sys "Manhattan Bus Div. Transfer Token", from 1949
- Comprehensive Omnibus Corp., from 1935
- same, from 1944
- East Side Omnibus Corp., from 1933 & 1944
- Ave B & East Broadway, from 1947, 1951 & 1952
- N Y St Ry Co 1900, from 1968
- N Y Trolley Car Co., from 1986
- H & M, from 1946 & 1951
- PATH, from 1963
- TBTA (various sizes & values)
From Brooklyn:
- B&QTC Transfer Token
- B&QTC 1/2 Fare Token
- NYC BMT Div. Transfer Token, from 1940
- NYC BMT Div. 1/2 Fare Token, from 1941
From Queens:
- Green Bus ....
- Jamaica Buses ...
- Triboro Coach ...
- North Shore Bus ...
- Queensboro Bridge (two, one trolley & one bus logo)
- Steinway Transit ...
- LIRR (Dashing Dan logo) ... this is a nice large token, but hard to acquire, I was able to trade for ONE.
Note that I have abreviated the above to save space.
I have many mass transit tokens in my collection, but don't have most of the above, however as many of you might expect I happen to have some of the Steinwy & Queensboro Bridge tokens.
Please e-mail me privately if you want to talk about membership in AVA (you have to be sponcered), or the purchase of tokens.
Mr t :^)
Thank you Thurston.
They didn't indicate a mint year on the listing?
Allan
Not for the IRT token.
Sometimes they do & sometimes they don't. It appears that they have spent more effort on this information on the more recent tokens.
Mr rt :^)
I was responding to a query on another board reagrding the wheelchair seats on the new cars.
We all know that the fold down seats snap up quickly and with a loud bang whenever someone sitting on them gets up. It gets real annoying to everyone else in the car.
I was wondering though about the T/Os or C/Rs. It must scare the hell out of them when it it happens in their car since those seats are directly behind the cab.
Anyone got some insights on this?
The first time I heard it on the R-143, I came out of the cab. I thought someone fell.
-Mark
They are worthless as there are no points to secure the wheelchair from moving. They are also an annoyance to Carbody Men as they come up as a 'point of lubrication.' Perhaps the floor could be made as slippery as the seating...equality for all. CI Peter
Good point ... on many handicapped accessible vehicles, there is SOME form of "lockdown" be it floor clamps or someplace to put a bungee cord (hey, we ain't got a lot of money upstate, cobs 'R' us) ...
on many handicapped accessible vehicles, there is SOME form of "lockdown"
Anybody know if the is any such thing on the HBLR or NCS cars?
on many handicapped accessible vehicles, there is SOME form of "lockdown"
Anybody know if there is any such thing on the HBLR or NCS cars?
What font does Amtrak use in the Northeast Corridor timetable? I use "Acela Fonts" because this is font used on Acela related matters.
Chaohwa
First, I would like to thank Dave Pirmann for bringing back Sub-Talk. Secondly, who from the Sub-Talk group will be attending any of the CERA (Central Electric Railfans Association) activities Memorial Day weekend? I am looking forward to it, and it will be my pleasure to meet you guys.
Me ... but you knew that. :)
Did Dan Joseph call you about a swap of events Fri & Sat? Newark City Subway was changed to Friday (because it doesn't run on Saturday) and BHRA tour was changed to Saturday.
I don't think the HBLR trip was changed, though.
I will definitely be going to the Fri & Sat night meetings, and the events on Sat, Sun & Mon.
--Mark
Yes he did. The HBRL is still a go. It also looks a go for Shore Line Tues. the 28th. Danny is arranging a ride from Conn. Limo, or from a fellow Chicagoan's brother who lives in New York. His flight leave at 7:00 pm, mine at 6:30. Also where is these meetings at, 2125 W. 13th St. in Brooklyn , what stop do I get off at? Or should I just meet you somewhere and you lead the way?
Last time I spoke with your contact at Shoreline he was all prepaired for you'll arrivial Tuesday.
Mr rt :^)
If that's where the R-16 is (PS-248), it would be the W to 25th Ave, then walk on 86th St a few blocks east (you would see the Culver El in front of you in the distance; you'd be walking in the same direction the W train is going before it makes its right turn onto Stillwell Ave. The school would be in front of you on the right side of the street; can't miss the big training center sign). I got a 2 page flyer from Dan with directions to all the sites .... did you get one?
I found it really funny getting a January 2002 subway map and 7 day MetroCard from a Chicago address! :)
Not sure I'll be able to hook up with you Friday before the meeting since I'll probably drive in right after work.
Anyway, I'll talk to you well before then ....
--Mark
I am going on the redbird trip. Backwards fitted yankee cap with a 1 train shirt and an MTA vest stickin outta my pant pocket.
I'll be on the Redbird trip.
Has anyone here gotten the tix for that yet?
I'll be one of you Operators at BERA on Tuesday. I'm there Monday (so I'll miss the Dtype trip) and haven't got dispatcher approval (wife) to go to the redbird trip yet. Still working on it.
Hey guys! It's great to have Subtalk back now, and just coincidentally I got back from Hong Kong yesterday after visiting with me relatives there. And I have to tell you guys (and this is practically like a railfan's dream) that Hong Kong's government is probably one of the most railway-friendly governments I have ever seen.
In 2000, the Hong Kong government published a report that recommended a vast expansion of both the subway and the commuter rail network. Some of them are still under construction, a small number complete, while some are almost ready to be opened for the public. And it all started with the Lantau Airport Railway back in '97.
For the 15 days I was there, I traveled on all the major rail routes in Hong Kong, squeezed between shopping and stuff like that...and not to mention a whole lotta pics and stuff that I've yet to get to sorting out so I can write the stuff up for Dave.
Trust me, guys, if you are a true railfan, you will want to be paying attention to Hong Kong in the next 10 year or so. The developments there are endless...When I go back there again later this year, the Tseung Kwan O subway line will have opened. I can't wait for that to open up...
*sigh* So much railway, so little time.
-J!
Did you ride on that huge outdoor escalator? Supposedly it dwarfs even the long escalators in the DC Metro.
Just got word off of CNN a few minutes ago that there was a train-on-truck collision down in the Lone Star State, with several cars off the tracks and a possible fatality. Anyone reading this may want to go to their website for more info.
Here's the link:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/05/15/train.derailment/index.html
Umm...that story is about a derailment in Florida. I can't seem to find any articles on a Texas derailment at CNN.com.
Mark
The CNN story is screwed up. The dump truck hit the train. It's yesterday's story.
"Freight train derails in Indiantown
Associated Press
A freight train collided with a dump truck on Wednesday, derailing eight cars and injuring the driver of the truck, authorities said.
The derailment temporarily delayed Amtrak service north and south of the wreck and caused a temporary closing of a 10-mile stretch of Florida Highway 710, said Pembrook Burrows, a spokesman for the Florida Highway Patrol.
"For some unknown reason (the truck) failed to stop. It struck the crossing gate that was in the down position and also struck the first car that was behind three engines," Burrows said.
The driver of the truck, Marcos Rojas, 58, of Indiantown, was taken by helicopter to St. Mary's Medical Center in West Palm Beach. Rojas was in serious condition, hospital spokesman Don Chester said.
Burrows said the southbound train, which left behind a zigzag trail of cars, was carrying molasses and sludge when the collision happened at 1:05 p.m. The truck, operated by Tampa Farm Services in Indiantown, was hauling chicken manure.
A hazardous material team was called to the scene to check for any ammonium nitrate leaks. Burrows said there was only residue of the fertilizer at the bottom of one of the cars and no leakage.
Florida Highway 710 was expected to reopen at 6 p.m., Burrows said.
Husein Cumber, a spokesman for the Florida East Coast Railway, said the north-south tracks where the derailment occurred are owned by the FEC but used only by South Central Florida Express, which also is responsible for their maintenance. A South Central Florida Express spokeswoman declined comment.
Cars at the rear of the derailed train remained upright, but temporarily blocked CSX Transportation tracks that parallel the east-west highway. The rear cars were uncoupled and were rolled clear of the CSX tracks at 3:15 p.m., allowing an Amtrak train to pass through a few minutes later.
Howard Riefs, an Amtrak spokesman, said a northbound train from Miami was delayed 90 minutes and a southbound train from New York was delayed about 30 minutes.
Cumber said the derailed train was traveling to Fort Pierce, where the FEC picks up South Central Florida cars for its main line along the coast.
Indiantown is about 33 miles northwest of West Palm Beach."
Newly posted article on the 'Chicago-L.org' website:
City's big idea: 2nd transit loop
-- Ed Sachs
Sounds like an excellent plan to me... Here's hoping Chicago can pull it off. I especially like the idea of banning new parking garages in the Loop. Finally, a progressive transit policy!
The nice thing about the idea is that only about a mile of new subway would have to be built, and at one end of the proposed route, there's already a never-used flying junction in the Blue Line subway at Milwaukee/Lake that could be utilized.
-- David
Chicago, IL
As some may know (David Cole comes to mind), the former "Air Line" right of way that runs along Chicago's southern lakefront and then takes a westward turn at McCormack Place, is due to be closed in the next few years. I wonder if there is any practical way to use the the right of way westward from McCormack Place to tie the IC Electric commuter line service into the commuter services that use Union Station. Presently, there is no connection between the two. Any ideas?
There has been some informal discussion about using the Air Line as a ROW for rapid transit access between Union Station and McCormick Place. It would form the southern leg of an "outer Loop" that would have Clinton Street as the western leg, the IC trench as the eastern leg, and the abandoned railroad ROW along the north bank of the Chicago River as the northern leg. (A bit more ambitious than the recently-proposed "outer Loop" discussed on another thread here.) However, this would require a huge amount of construction, including two new river crossings. I'm personally all in favor of such an idea, but there have been no formal proposals yet.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It would be very exciting to achieve all of the inter-connectivity implied in such a circular routing. As a Hyde Parker, I am all in favor.
What happened to that other, larger loop idea that was proposed a month or two ago? Did the politicans already forget about it? I think both ideas are good, but we'd only see one or the other and not both.
Sorry about the outage there. I was doing some necessary db work.
-Dave
p.s. let me know if you see anything odd.
SubTalk is back, so how about a Field Trip. Am getting tired of just going home after work !
BTW, Lets wait until our friends from Chicago have come & gone Memorial Day week-end (yes I know Sea Beach Fed is coming too, but he's just one amoung many).
Mr rt
It would be nice to do another A line trip to the beaches with the N33 to Long Beach. Today was absolutely beautiful down there, a nice sea breeze blowing as I walked the boardwalks at Long and Atlantic (yes Atlantic beach has a boardwalk also).
I hated to come back north tonight and back into the heat and poor air quality of northern Nassau county.
For some reason I've always liked elevateds by the shore (S.Brooklyn, Rockaways) versus the Bronx, I guess there's nothing like a sea breeze blowing through that front window.
That's what Mr. T has in mind...
I pity da fool ... (sorry)
Keeping true to form, Mr. T prefers ground transportation to flying...;-D
Hey ... if the TRAIN don't go there, no need for me to either. :)
And if Amtrak gets canned, no need for ME to see "America" ... upstate New York is "America" enough for ME ... intercourse Texas.
Intercourse, PA; screw Texas.
Thurston,
I would love to do another subtalk field trip! Perhaps we could ride the #7 line and grab an R62A, and/or ride the R143 on the L. I'm sure you'll be getting a few suggestions, so just wanted to put my two cents in. :-) -Nick
I would be happy to do any of those already mentioned:
- #7 Flushing Line: Since I work at College Point, Main Street is convient for me & I do love those Red Birds.
- Beaches of Rock & Long: This is a long trip, but it is a very pleasent one for those that haven't done it, i.e. we take the "A Train" over Jamaica Bay, then over the old LIRR structure along the Beach, then a very nice bus ride to Long Beach, a short walk to the beach, then home via more buses or LIRR (i.e. no double backing required).
- L line: I do love the window of a Slant 40 going under the East River almost as much as a railfan window on the Brighton.
- Coney Island: Many ways to get there, Nathans once we arrive, then a completely different way to return.
- Bronx: Our friend Andee wants to shows us the sights on the Grand Concourse ... we could do that, then walk to #4 (evening we could take #4 Express North)
So, e-mail me privately if you prefer & once I have a "core" group formed I'll announce the trip. Once formed the route is set, but any who want to tag along are more then welcome !
Those are all nice options, especially Coney if we knew we could get an R32 on the F either coming or going. The increased presence of Slants on the N helps, too. BTW, isn't Sea Beach Fred supposed to make a pilgrimage east later this spring or summer?
Doing the Concourse is a very interesting idea due to all those unusual multi-level station structures- despite the fact that the chances of getting a railfan window range from slim (on the 4) to none (on the D).
The Far Rock/Long Beach jaunt we did last summer was lots of fun, if late-running. A Friday's probably best for that, especially in June when it stays light the latest.
There's never been an organized Canarsie line trip all the way from Manhattan as far as I can remember. Aside from the Junction and ROW to Canarsie, the various underground platform mosiacs are worth a look as well. Besides, the railfan window's days may be severely limited on that line.
Since I get off my job in LIC at 4:00, it's easy for me to get nearly anywhere.
Hope to get together soon.
"Those are all nice options, especially Coney if we knew we could get an R32 on the F either coming or going"
The R-32 on the F is great for when going through the 63rd street connector as well!! -Nick
Done that, been there .... and yes it is a nice run.
Lou from Brooklyn did it on a E last year when they were diverting them.
Mr rt__:^)
In the winter someone posted the stations that were selling the "Red, White, and Blue" Metrocards. Anyone have any info on new ones? Thanks.
They (there are two versions) are the last NEW ones to come out.
We heard that the TA solved the problem & can/is now sell adv. space on them again, but that was some months ago.
Mr rt
Saw it around 11:00am as a test train in simulated service on the (5) line today...
Another one of the sidelined junkies now coming out of the closet...btw, whatever happened to 6366-6370/6376-6380? Haven't seen that sucker since two weeks ago...good thing I got my pic when I saw it...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Trainsets are receiving updated mods by vendors and now are being released as the last of the #2s and first of the #5s. 6300-6304 and another trainset were in at 239th the other day....NEW and CLEAN. More to come, more good news to come, more R142s on the #5, better than ever and more reliable. CI Peter. We're CED - WE MAKE TRAINS GO
Where did 6300 come from, I heard of 6301. But not 6300!
6366-70 and 6376-80 are testing as a set, as is 6371-75 and 6386-90.
-Stef
If anybody is interested, the Transit Museum at Grand Central Station has a few number plates in the 7400’s range. There are about 20 to 25 plates selling for 5 bucks each.
Do you know if they are selling any straphangers or rollsigns?
No.
Those items they do not have.
Haven't seen any straphangers or rollsigns. If I do, I'll post it.
Straphangers being sold at......
LOT 76 NYC Antiques & Props
which is located at
76 EAST HOUSTON STREET
(212) 505-8699
(saw them personally)
6 train to Bleecker
walk 3 blocks East.
Why would they sell number plates at the Post Office? Wouldn't it better to have it at Grand Central Terminal in NY (lol).
such a wiseass.....
I was on the Q Express yesterday and some cops came on. I was leaning on the door on a train with seats. Just out of curiousity, can the cops give out a summons for leaning on a door?
If they have a mind to. By leaning on the doors you could techinically prevent them from opening and thus be interfereing with the operation of the train. But unless they are in a really bad mood they won't even give you a 2nd glance.
Just to let you know I have seen TA President Larry Reuter on an A train and he was leaning on the doors.
I don't think so. Unless you're preventing the cops from moving some place, they won't even know you're there. Any crowded subway train in NYC will have people leaning on the doors. If we had such a policy, it would get too annoying.
I don't believe there is a policy on this, however cops have been known to enforce "annoying" laws before. A few years ago a man violated the rule of taking up more than 1 seat (he put his bags on the seat next to him). It's against the law to do this, so the cop took him off the train (so he missed the train), and issued him a ticket worth $50. I can understand the situation if it occured during rush hour, but this is a "blue" law to begin with, and the incident occured on a Sunday morning when the train was empty. -Nick
With all these CAF cars running in Washington having problems, not leaning on the doors is their (WMATA) way of saying "We don't trust the doors and these cars. If you fall out when the doors opens for no reason - we told you so".
Phil Hom
That applies to all MetroRail cars. They say if one leans to hard, they can malfunction. That really applies to any subway car, if you think about it, but WMATA doors seem more prone to it.
DNLOD in NYCTA doesn't refer to malfunction in systems control but an answer to a lawsuit applied when someone fell out somehow (presumably at a station platform when the doors opened.) So, every carbody guy must make sure all doors have the DNLOD stickers! CI Peter
Jamaica yard refuses to put the stickers on! All the others have the stickers on every single door leaf, and in the case of the R-142/a storm doors it's ridiculously redundant.
Why would it be redundant? Isn't it possible if you're leaning on a storm door that you could be injured if somebody opens it without any prior warning?
I think he meant that since the 142 and 142As have "double" storm doors, that it looks rediculously redundant.
If you make it, they'll lean on it.
NO.
I saw this on the ad panels (one of those MTA SubTalk safety ads) where it said something like "It's dangerous to lean on doors. And you block other people's way."
There is also one about "Do not hold doors and that it's dangerous if you get caught and get dragged because of it."
In fact, you're putting your own status at risk if you lean on doors, lest if anything serious does happen because of it.
Now I realize why they have the DNLOD stickers....I jammed the door of an R142 once...and Only once. I bumped my back against the door and i heard some sort of click noise, which made me back off the door instantly, so on the next stop, only the door on the right opened.
Some serious problems on the R142 then. I constantly get my back bumped on the R40 and R68 doors on the Brighton Line. No problems on those.
Hi,I still can't reach you email, both the first one I tried from the messageboard and the one from the email you sent to me.
In any event. I'm in for the trip you have planned for this weekend. Could you fill me in (preferably by email) on the day and exact time? I believe you said the 18th (Saturday), but I don't recall a time.
Thanks
PIggo/Bill
This coming Tuesday is Pennsylvania's Primary Election Day, and it is a very important race. Democrats Ed Rendell (former DNC chairman, Philly mayor, Philly DA) and Bobby Casey Jr. (Auditor general, son of former gov.) will face off for the final candidate.
I AM STRONGLY ENCOURAGING ALL REGISTERED DEMOCRATS TO VOTE FOR EDWARD G. RENDELL
If anyone lives in Philadelphia, I am sure you are aware of the many great things he has done as Philadelphia's most popular mayor in at least 100 years.
But to keep this on topic, I did find one transit-related issue that makes Ed Rendell stand out from the rest.
HE OPENLY SUPPORTS EXTRA FUNDING FOR PENNSYLVANIA'S PUBLIC TRANSIT GROWTH AND EXPANSION
He is the only candidate to do so. We all know SEPTA is underfunded, and there are projects all over the state in financial trouble, and ED RENDELL is the only candidate for governor who can address these problems the way we want them addressed!!!!
He also is the only candidate who has campaigned and encouraged people to vote inside an El station. Yesterday, he and his posse were trying to encourage the voters at the Allegheny station in North Kensington.
I don't know if promoting politics is a good idea on here, but at least you related it to transit. -Nick
I wouldn't normally promote politics here. But I am a tremendous supporter of Ed Rendell, and he is a tremendous supporter of mass transit.
Ok, fair enough :-) -Nick
I receive NJT Alerts via e-mail. There is police activity at the Plauderville Station on the Bergen Line. One train, number 59 to Port Jervis, is indefinately delayed at Plauderville. Shuttles are replacing trains between Garfield and Ridgewood. Main Line trains are not affected. In addition, a MNRR train is delayed due to a different reason. But anyway, since the train was indefinately held (and now cancelled) at Plauderville, was there something going on on board the train? NJT now reports one track open with extensive delays of up to over two hours on various trains.
Originally, I thought I had heard that the Airtrain was supposed to open in 3 phases-- the inner loop this year, the Howard Beach connection at the end of the year, and the Jamica connection (completing the system) next year. Now I hear that Howard beach and the inner loop will open together. But passing by on the A, it looks like the Howard Beach terminal is a long way from completed (only a stell skeleton is up in places). I hope the opening is not getting pushed back because of this. I wish they would just open up the inner terminal loop first, because some of those stations looked nearly complete almost a year ago.
What is the projected opening now anyway?
While I'm sure it won't happen, I'd be very very happy indeed if the Airtrain section running out to Long-Term Parking would be open by August 11th. That's when we're flying out of JFK* to our vacation in Arizona, and I dread having to deal with those ghastly shuttle buses.
* = which is assuming, of course, that America West is still in business then. They may not be in as dire straits as US Airways, but they shouldn't be buying green tomatoes, if you catch my drift.
It would be nice if it were to open before November so that I can try it out when I come over for Subway Tour No 9. Last year Rob Morel Wayne Whitehorne, and myself used the Newark version, which, although it resembles a James Bond type monorail seemed to be very efficient.
Simon
Swindon UK
ANyone know of a map online somewhere of the future Airtrain?
Go to the JFK Airtrain website and follow the Gallery of Images link... which I found after doing a five second search on "airtrain" using Google.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
hey all, glad to see the talks back up. talk to you all soon.
Bought a slide scanner that actually does a decent job and didn't cost me my first-born or bodily parts. So I put my LIRR slide collection from the 1960's (when I was in my early teens) and 1970's into binariy files, and they are now available on CD-ROM.
Rather than set a price (and insult anyone...including myself) I am experimenting by listing the CD-ROM at EBay. If anyone is interested, the item number is....2103223494. Auction ends this weekend!!
In car 1616 or 1617, in the priority seat area there is a 2 person bucket seat- it is in the dark color and looks like a stretched 62 seat. Where did this come from?
That car (1616)was involved in a fire so the seats were replaced in that 5 car set. If I am not mistaken those cars have Yankke stickers on the side .
Whydo the R-46 have always have musk,mold,humid,tad bit of urine,suffy, public bathroom (no sharp smell) smell to them?
That is a good question. I have sometimes noticed some kind of odor while riding the R-46s. I think you might have the odor on the R-44s too.
I haven't been to NYC for 6 years now so I can't comment on the "current smell". I do remember, though, when the R-46 were brand new...I found their "new car smell" to be rather pleasant.
The current smell is a musty sort of odor.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah I know what you mean, the R44's and R46's seem to have damp air in them, and the A/C is not very good. Heck, I've been on some Redbirds that had better A/C.
As far as car "smells", the Redbirds have a nice old cozy old railcar smell to them, and some of them actually smell like citrus (must be a TA cleaning fluid).
ummm, I love the smell of Abestos in the morning!...;-D
I wonder where the musty smell comes from on the R-44s and the R-46s.
#3 West End Jeff
>>I wonder where the musty smell comes from on the R-44s and the R-46s.<<
#3 West End Jeff
Probably from the armpits of some of the riders.
Bill "Newkirk"
John, with that sensative nose of yours I'm sure I think I know of a job that's right up your alley. "Truffle Hunter"
Actually I have smelled that smell you described more common in R-40M and R-42, even a few R-32s.
>>>... (must be a TA cleaning fluid). <<<
That stuff makes me gag. If I get on a freshly mopped car I have to move.
Peace,
ANDEE
Because those cars stink-they're also slow bouncy and dull.
Give me an R32 anyday before 1 of these lunks of junk.
#3768 E Queens Blvd 8 Ave Express
Could be dirty AC units, or poor air quality at the Jamaica Yard.
I often worry that the fake wood will attract fake termites.
;-D Andrew
I noticed that on some R46's. And there is this weird smell also on the R62/62A's, is it the same one?
BTW: Is it me or does evereything in the subway have it's own body odoor?
The car Cleaners dont clean the cars well. they just wipe the floor with the cleaning solution, which stinks on its own, with the dirt on the floor, it mixes, rots and the residue that is left produces the smell.
>>The car Cleaners dont clean the cars well. they just wipe the floor with the cleaning solution, which stinks on its own, with the dirt on the floor, it mixes, rots and the residue that is left produces the smell<<
They use a citrus based cleaner in the mop bucket. Perhaps they ran out of it and substituted Gatorade instead !
Bill "Newkirk"
R62(A)'s smell nice, especially during times (nights) where the train isn't very crowded and you don't have over 100 people breathing in the good air.
Any comments?
I'm back on Sub Talk just like a number of you. Since the Hiatus I've acquired a black T-shirt with the letter "W" on it which is the letter name of what was once the BMT West End Line #3 train. I'll try to wear it when ever I'm on the subways so anyone out there will know that it is me. It is getting a little warm for me to wear my little black hood so I'm dispensing with it for the summer though I should keep it with me if I wind up on a freezing cold car where the A/C is too strong. Speak of subway cars I rode a train of R-68As on the West End line on April 30th to and from Coney Island. The R-68As do not make the same annoying noise as the R-68s. How come the R-68s make the annoying noise and not the R68As.
#3 West End Jeff
Hi all,
Please let me know if there's any outdated maps that needs updating from this website(Please only from current maps, not the historial maps.
Thanks,
Michael Calcagno
Mike: The ltates NYCT map is 3/2002 and is idenitical to the 1/02 map witht he exception of WTC on the E being reopened (without ADA access) and a new Transit Museum Gallery ad.
Your map on the site already shows WTC on the E as open so you are fine.
BTW- the WTC station has plywood with a decent paint job in NYCT Beige blocking the area where you used to enter the WTC. Last visit I made to the station, the booth was still closed as were the turnstiles. Exit and entry is via the HEETs. The street stairway exit on the East side by the newststand (which was still closed)is open. Both newststands- the one inside the paid area and the one outside were still closed (in fact the one outside is behind the plywood as is the booth asm of my last visit. The passageway to the IRT is open.
You could make up new maps for some systems...
-J!
According to a TA sup't I spoke with the other day, the TA would like to impliment OPTO to the M shuttle effective with the fall pick of 9/8/02. I neglected to ask her about the plan for weeknights. However, a few people I know who work downtown told me the plan is for Saturday, Sunday and holiday schedules only starting with the midnight shift Saturdays and concluding with the PM shift Sundays. There is one big hitch: continuing reliability problems with the R143. A decision to impliment must be made by the end of June when the t/o's and c/r's start to pick the jobs. Otherwise, OPTO will be held off till the Spring 2003 pick.
I thought the 143 was doing very well, passed the 30 day test in record time, etc. What's going on?
Well to be honest there seems to be propulsion problems going thru the tubes, Its not a major problem but crews have complained enough on the "air" about it. Also look for 3 new sets out of pitkin yard to start service this week. Those were the primary school car trains.Plus Coney Island yard has already recieved 24 slant r 4o's from the L which have already begun service on the N and Q .
I could swear I remember that several years back, before the express tracks on the Broadway Line were in regular service, there were some G.O.'s where N and R trains would skip Prince and 8th Streets, but not 23rd or 28th Streets, or vice-versa. However, according to the track maps and my own personal observations, there are no switches between the local and express tracks anywhere between south of Prince Street to north of 34th Street. So, how did they handle these G.O.'s?
- Lyle Goldman
My guess is maybe they were doing station work, not track work. In which case, they didn't need to move things off the local track. So the trains just skipped by the stations, but on the local.
There was major station work done at all 4 of those stations in preparation for the MB service switching from north side to south. All 4 were closed in one direction for several months; first one side, then the other side.
While the work was going on at all 4 stations, trains ran on the express track. I don't remember any time when only 2 stations of the 4 were skipped, but they certainly would have had to use the local track to do that.
I will never be able to understand why the work being done was started in the year before the Manhattan bridge flip. They had many years to do the work without the added traffic, with flexibility of reroutes to the express track whenever needed. Instead, they did some of the major work before the flip, but left the local stations a mess.
I will admit though that they're looking pretty good now. Is there a scheduled completion date?
There does appear to have been a junction just north of Union Square, where there is a stretch of track which has no stel girders between the local & express tracks. IIRC, Union Square was a terminal for a time back when the Bway line was under construction, so switches had to exist. Anyone know when/why they were removed?
Perhaps some "genius" either in the BMT Co. (pre 1940), the Board of Transportation in the 1940's or the TA starting in 1953 felt the switches were not necessary and had them removed.
I've heard some very large numbers mentioned for the annual cost to maintain a switch, for periodic inspection/lubrication/etc. and if the numbers I heard were accurate, I can see why they remove them when they aren't needed for normal operation.
Yeah, the bean counters are always looking to "redundant" switches.
There is a theoretical cost of maintenance (actual cost if the
maintenance is actually performed according to theory!). If the
switch is removed, then track and signal show an annual cost
savings, woo-hoo. Of course, no one even figures the "soft costs"
of NOT having that switch there. Think about lost time during a delay
because of less operating flexibility to re-route. Then again, my
theory of dispatching around laid-down trains is much more aggressive
than current practice.
That stretch hasn't changed since the late 60s.
I still wonder if there was ever a switch just south of 23rd St. on the 8th Ave. line n/b.
I was actually thinking of G.O.'s that occurred long before the Manhattan Bridge switch. Actually, it was so long ago that I could be misremembering and all four stations were skipped.
- Lyle Goldman
How are the R143s holding up on the L ? How bad are the teething pains and how do these troubles relate the the initial pains of the R142/R142A?
What is the main problem if there is a main problem?
How many cars are o site?
I cant talk for the R143s, but the R142a is doing well. It seems like the R142s are finally getting their problms worked out. We'll see by the year's end.
The R-143s are getting off the ground slowly but every indication is that they are doing better than their A division cousins. At last count, there were 57 cars on the property. Of those:
8 are in service.
8 are having CBTC installed.
8 are having the R-160 prototype door system installed for the 1 year qualification test.
8 are being used for RTO crew training.
The rest are undegoing the acceptance proces.
"8 are in service. "
There have been 16 in service for at least the last 2 months.
That's true. Mark has a unique perspecitve on the 143's. He's the man in the know on those cars...
(see, Mark I CAN give you a compliment...;-D
Not according to the Car Maintenance Computer system. As of Thursday, only 40 R-143s have been accepted. & Not according to the General Supt. at East NY. When that 2nd train goes into service, East NY is supposed to give Coney Island a train and Coney Island is supposed to transfer another 4-car R-68 link to Concourse Shop.
The L line was running two 8 car R143's in service on Thursday and Friday. I rode to work in car 8111 on Thursday, so it looks like a little transfer is due for CI/CCYD.
Sorry Z-Man but 8111 was part of the 2nd 8-car train accepted. All that means is that one of the 3 trains that were O/S for the reasons stated, was running in service. Look for the 814X or 815X cars
Oh I see. It's a little more complicated than it looks. Thanx TD.
BTW all, they were testing 8117-8120 on Friday.
Where are they being tested?
There are two (2) sets in service. 8101-8108, 8109-8116. Then again... Why should you believe me? I only work on the L line.
Mark, I don't think that there is any call for your contentiousness. I know exactly where you work. The fact is that RTO may not be using the 2nd train temporarily for training but and so 16 cars may be in service. However, the 6th train had not been released to service as of Thursday. Why believe me? I only have access to the official records.
Mark, I don't think that there is any call for your contentiousness. I know exactly where you work. The fact is that RTO may not be using the 2nd train temporarily for training and so 16 cars may be in service. This may be temporary or this may be permanent. However, the 6th train (cars 41 through 48) had not been released to service as of Thursday. Why believe me? I only have access to the official records.
The L has two AND school car has their own. School car briefly had two about a month ago.
As of about 30 minutes ago, just 40 cars (R-143) show as having been accepted for service. This is 8 more than in my original post in this thread. So now we have:
2 trains in service
1 O/S for RTO trining
1 for CBTC
1 for door system engineering
Damned network admins ... I'd suggest a road trip instead of wondering why. :)
where is this said?
Actually, it's said by me. I checked it through the Car maintenance Computer "Fleet/Class Situation" menu. As for where the trains are allocated, I got that from a senior manager who is directly involved with the R-143 program. I hope you find these sources reliable enough.
Which line will use the ENY train and which line loses the R68?
A few R40s will probably be shifted to Coney Island to maintain fleet commonality. A set of R68s will leave. Cars aren't exactly assigned to one line exclusively. There is always a chance for different equipment. This weekend there were R40s on the Q Local and the W Line's R68As were put everywhere.
> 8 are having the R-160 prototype door system
What is the nature of this door system, and how does it differ from the door system currently used on the cars in service?
- Lyle Goldman
Also, which car #'s have this new door system? -Nick
Good to see the Train Dude back here!!! My pick is Wednesday. CI Peter
One thing about Kawasaki Industries is that when a serious problem is discovered, they send down their engineers and experienced techs to take a close look. When a serious problem is discovered in the R142, it's the CIs/supervisors/DS that have to drag BombaDuhs into the mess. On an entire ten car trainset, I found MOST of the battery terminal nuts UNTORQUED to 12 pounds and propulsion crew found shoe beam mounting hardware loose and hidden behind fiberglas cap nuts (torque is 50 pounds.) Our 180th Street GO is NOT to allow vendors to do work unobserved or unattended...quality is job one and Kawasaki wins hands down. CI Peter
>>8 are having CBTC installed.<<
Wouldn't it be easier to have it installed at the factory ?
>>8 are having the R-160 prototype door system installed for the 1 year qualification test<<
Can you elaborate on this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
">>8 are having the R-160 prototype door system installed for the 1 year qualification test<<
Can you elaborate on this ?"
Before any vendor can sell any new system tot he NYCT, the product must undergo a one year qualification test. I'm not aware which vendor is involved nor do I know what the nature of the system is.
Nice to have you back on the board, Train Dude.
Is there a major difference between the R-160 and R-143 doors?
I have not seen either system. The systems may be identical and this may be a new vendor endeavouring to become qualified to bid on future contracts.
what seems to be the biggest problem(s)? I think the A Division had door and brake problems.
I don't think that there are any major problems with the R-143 cars. It's more that the folks at East NY are simply not rushing the cars into service. Instead, they are making sure that the vendor meets all of their responsibilities as set forth in the contract.
The R-142s apparently are undergoing a slightly different and faster acceptance process.
Well its a Mix here in the IRT. It seems that E 180 are putting trains into in service status as fast as they come in but the Line supervision are not that fast to put them on the road. The supervision on the No.5 Line are not that crazy about these new trains they keep putting it off. The first set should have been in service in March. Now they are playing catch up we now have 7 sets in service but they don't run on weekends. Some only run during Rush Hours. Out of 7 Sets after 8PM you may only see 2 sets.
When I was riding the L line on Monday 13th May, there were definitely at least two trains of R143s in service; I rode on two different ones. And I seem to remember seeing at least one more R143 train passing us going the other way. The two cars I rode in were 8110 (with the recorded voice not working and the interior station-name indicator wrongly saying "Last stop" all the way along the line), and 8104 (electronics o.k.)
Fytton
In order to keep (ahem) "politics" off subtalk (though it will adversely affect the MTA as well as many other things) I wrote my thoughts over on Harry's place with a bit of word that the budget has been passed (due April 1) ...
http://www.nycrail.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/messages/2138.html
Don't want to start a bad trend here after things have started off so nicely and I know "politics" is a bad thing here ... so drop by and have at it.
Well it seems that the Second Avenue Subway was really coming close to becoming a reality then a dream for subway riders, and subway buffs, the most famous never built line, actully being built. Then when 9/11 occured, it seems the Second Avenue Subway was thrown in the garbage, thrown in the dump truck, crushed and is not on a barge out to sea. So who here believes that the odds of a full length Second Avenue Subway (Express and Local Lines) will ever happen, or do you think, that if there is 1 will it be a flop, or you believe that it will never happen.
I think that they will build it. Maybe we ride on in in 2012???
I think the FOOLS will make it a two track line.
Go ahead, save the buck now and then spend them all over again when people begin to grow brains again. : )
My guess reading the NYS "budget documents" is that the hopes of a second avenue subway are *DEAD* ... period. But Joe Bruno, Senate Majority leader DID get his AA minor league Baseball stadium and a frachise for the trailer park community of East Greenbush (near Troy NY) at "Hudson Valley Community College") ...
But given a 20% cutback, first thing the MTA will need to do to save the bacon after New York got screwed is to kill the SAS project in order to keep wigs' paychecks coming while T/O's get ... ummm ... "early retirement" ... seriously, we're all screwed ...
let's all ***PLEASE*** not respond to my rantings here ... I know Dave doesn't appreciate "politics" on this site ... already spewed my spleen on this elsewhere - for now, Uncle Harry seems to be tolerating it only because we were regulars there BEFORE the "hiatus" so I'm genuinely concerned about not farting in church here. (heh)
If you want at it, take it offsite to Unca Harry's "Other side of the tracks (NYCRAIL.ORG) so as to not defecate here on the topic:
http://www.nycrail.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/messages/2138.html
But hey, we all got rich on that taxcut, so a little loss of the SAS was WELL worth it. =)
(My guess reading the NYS "budget documents" is that the hopes of a second avenue subway are *DEAD* ... period.)
My guess is that after preliminary design, they will present the federal government with a bill for $20 billion, or about the entire FTA budget for new starts for the next 20 years. The federal government will say no, so they'll compromise by getting federal money for suburban improvements like LIRR to GCT. Pataki will take credit for the suburban improvements, blaming others for the lack of the Second Avenue ("I really tried").
The City and State would have had to pay for it themselves. But the massive debt run up in the 2000 to 2004 capital plan -- debt in a boom -- sealed the fate of the Second Avenue. I just hope we don't go back to deferred maintenance.
The City and State would have had to pay for it themselves. But the massive debt run up in the 2000 to 2004 capital plan -- debt in a boom -- sealed the fate of the Second Avenue. I just hope we don't go back to deferred maintenance.
I still think the city and state could have gotten some SAS money out of the feds as part of the September 11 relief package. It wouldn't have been easy, but there was a (brief) window of opportunity during which Washington was unusually generous toward New York. Unfortunately, as much as I like the job Pataki's been doing, he made a big mistake when he made that absurb $54 billion aid request. If he thought it would be a good negotiating tool, he was dead wrong.
Of course, IF the city and state would reduce their demented levels of Medicaid spending, even just a little bit, there'd be plenty of money for transit improvments. And that'll never happen :(
I have a 95 year old acquaintance who is living in a nursing home and a recipient of that demented level of Medicaid spending. She is not exactly receiving lavish care. She has no living relatives. The only ways to divert her care money to transit would be to put her out on the street and let her die, or to reduce her care from barely tolerably adequate to total neglect.
Actually if trhis was ten years ago she would have a much higher level of care in that... Before Pataki people were allowed to have 24/7 home health aides in addition to their section 8, ambulettes (I think they got abulances not abulettes, too), etc.
In my building almost everyone over 65 had a maid, er, aide. When the cuts went thru o one in my building suffered. At first they had to share a few aide but slowly they all stopped coming. Every week Gabe Pressman paraded this old destitute woman that had 24/7 care and would be forced into a home where she would be forced to spend her whole SS check to live.
What is the point?
I don't think the MTA really wants a Second Ave subway. The Lex IRT's farebox likely pays for the cost of the lines 24/7. Why dilutre that with another ROW to maintain. The TWU would not let them get away with an ATO from scratch system and almost everyone wants Station agents and not HEET's and Metrocard machines and of course this would have to run 24/7 so it would be a net money loser. The feds aren;t going to help the Mass Transit subsidy after helping the MTA build this thing at megabucks cost so there is no relief except for more borrowing.
I quite agree.
Medicare - Medicaid are already totally inadequate to the tasks that they are supposed to perform. They need major new sources of funding.
Further, they are simply day-to-day expenses of medical canre and maintenance. That is, they are today's expenses that need to be paid out of today's funds.
On the other hand.
Transit Construction is a capital improvement to city and regional infrastructure, and needs be amortised over a long period of time. For major transit construction, you need to pay the money up front to pay for workers and materials, but the costs need to be spread over a much longer period. 50 or 70 year bond issues would not be unreasonable for a transit line that expected to serve for 100 years or more.
The City and the State, (MUCH LESS SO the Federal Government) need to come up with these funds. If new subway lines were to cost say 200 Billion Dollars (call it 400 Billion when you include interest on bonds) the city, and the states of this region will need to allocate 8 Billion a year for fifty years. That is $1000 per person (man, woman and child) in the city. Don't Look now, but that is about 1/4 of what people are now paying for automobile insurance. So the figure is not *that* far off the wall.
And investment in it's own infrastructure is one of the best things a city or a region can do for itself. I think you will also find that building these rail lines are much cheaper than building similar highways, and who pays for them anyway. Certainly a will planned City and Regional approach to all transit and highway infractucture is needed and the appropriate construction projects be started with out delay, and without regard to Smallbany or Washington. If you put a regional tax on Gasoline (50c a gallon, and $1.00 a gallon on diesel) you will perhaps be able to cover some of our transportation needs.
And remember, these construction projects bring jobs to the area, and employees pay taxes and spend money. And this is a good thing too.
So GET OFF YOUR HANDOUT ASS and get th projects done with local resources! They are there, all you need to do is to ientify them and martial them for your needs. Living in a city is not supposed to be a gimmie-gimmie situation, but rather a helping each other and growing together situation. In other words: The WHOLE CITY *is* your living room, and the money you invest in these "home-improvements" is money spent to enhance your own quality of life.
[/Soapbox]
Elias
"That is $1000 per person (man, woman and child) in the city. Don't Look now, but that is about 1/4 of what people are now paying for automobile insurance."
I wish we could fund the subways with 1/4 of what we pay for auto insurance. But I hate to say it, but my wife and I, in Manhattan, pay $700 for insurance, not $8000.
"I wish we could fund the subways with 1/4 of what we pay for auto insurance. But I hate to say it, but my wife and I, in Manhattan, pay $700 for insurance, not $8000."
Humph... When I used to live on Long Island, (1970s -80s) I thought car insurance was in the $2000/Yr price range. Maybe I had a fancier car (NOT) or more insurance on it.
Oh Well... Don't vote for me because my math was never much better than those elected to the legislature.
: ) Elias
It's pushing 3 kilobucks upstate. AIM should check into what might happen should he ever file a claim. Sounds like "Shifty of Encino" for THAT price. :)
It's State Farm. I have a 1988 car with no collision insurance. I have had an accident on occasion (though State Farm never had to pay out on my behalf).
I guess if I had a nice car with collision, it would be a lot more, so the comparison was slightly unfair.
Also you neglect to mention that State Farm renewals are every six
months, not annually. So just double the figure you stated for the
annual amount. I just upgraded with State Farm from an 88 model to
a 94 model without collision and with discounts, my premium is just
under $800 for SIX MONTHS. That's in Brooklyn, the NO FAULT FRAUD
CAPITOL of the UMPIRE STATE. And I'm entitled to most every discount.
=:)Sparky
My insurance is $360 every 6 months, or $720 annually, which I rounded off to $700. I seem to have a bargain.
It sounds like a bargain, but let me ask some questions without prying. Is the car parked off street and is this location in the
borough of Manhattan?
Also what coverage do you carry besides basic liability? Does this include "Fire & Theft" + "Comprehensive"? You stated it doesn't include Collision because of the age of the vehicle.
I wasn't trying to bust your bubble about the six months, but I've
been State Farm insured for 25+ years and the renewal on my upgrade
for six months is $790. Of course that's for on street parking in
the Borough of Kings, the NO FLAUT FRAUD CAPITOL of PATURKEY LAND.
Spoke to the agent, with all allowable discounts, he tells me you
park it in BROOKLYN. >G<
:=) Sparky
Yikes, I should move my car to NYC! I have liability with no theft or collision, and I pay around $1000 per year for insurance here in Philadelphia.
On the other hand, I only pay $660 per year for SEPTA transpasses. (Actually $840 per year, but my employer uses TransitCheck, saving me $180 per year.)
Mark
Michalovic & Peter Rosa, thanks for the comparisons in costs by geography. I have to be satisfied with a older nice previously
owned vehicle or they would castrate me with collision. Also due
to our physical stature (wife & I), we need a full size vehicle.
The upgrade from a 1988 Olds 88 Delta Royale was to a 1994 Buick
Park Avenue.
Pete, since it's been 25+ years, that I've been with State Farm,
didn't know that it was now standard at all insurers to issue for
six months only. I knows what you means when the children come of age also. >BAM< go the rates. Don't have that problem, so hopefully I'll get as good a service life from the Buick as the Olds. Traded it with 302K. Was the only owner. >G<
:-) Sparky
No comprehensive. If it's stolen, I lose. Plain old liability for $720 per year. They don't ask if I'm parked on street or off, because it doesn't matter for liability.
I looked at my basic liability this AM, and it's $390 for six months
or $780 annual. Equivalent to yours adjusted for geography. Still
keep the comprehensive with a $500 deductible and a few other goodies. Still reasonable in comparison without the collision.
Thanks for the input.
:-) Sparky
Also you neglect to mention that State Farm renewals are every six
months, not annually. So just double the figure you stated for the
annual amount. I just upgraded with State Farm from an 88 model to
a 94 model without collision and with discounts, my premium is just
under $800 for SIX MONTHS. That's in Brooklyn, the NO FAULT FRAUD
CAPITOL of the UMPIRE STATE. And I'm entitled to most every discount.
Just about all car insurance polices are written for six-month terms rather than one-year terms. The shorter terms obviously allow the insurance companies to raise their rates more frequently. In addition, and probably more importantly from the companies' perspectives, it takes less time to drop coverage for a no-longer-welcome customer. Cancelling an auto insurance policy during its term generally is restricted by law to cases of non-payment.
I suppose we're pretty lucky. My wife and I, Suffolk County residents, pay a bit over $2,000 per year for two vehicles, a 2000 Isuzu Rodeo and a 2001 Mitsubishi Eclipse. That's with State Farm, who we've had for years. The bad part is that when my 16 year old stepdaughter gets her license in a month or so, our rates will go up by $1,600 per year. Ouch!
I think you guys are comparing legal liability for the old bomb Vs. the stuff you carry on a new car that the bank owns.
Remember the important factor: inflation. Governments can get money cheaper than anyone else, then generate inflation and the debt becomes worthless :D
(I have a 95 year old acquaintance who is living in a nursing home and a recipient of that demented level of Medicaid spending. She is not exactly receiving lavish care.)
New York State spends double the national average per Medicaid recipient. Yet I believe yoiu when you say that the level of care is not good -- perhaps even worse than elsewhere. What does that say?
I have a 95 year old acquaintance who is living in a nursing home and a recipient of that demented level of Medicaid spending. She is not exactly receiving lavish care.
New York State spends double the national average per Medicaid recipient. Yet I believe yoiu when you say that the level of care is not good -- perhaps even worse than elsewhere. What does that say?
I can answer that using numbers rather than words: 1199
It would be great (and possible) to build by 2012, should the groundbreaking still occur in 2004. NYC is bidding for the 2012 summer games, so having the new line in time for this (should they get the games) would be excellent. As for having only two tracks, that is probably enough. To my knowledge (anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), the second avenue subway is not going to be an IRT line, but will be a semi-express; the only stops will parallel the Lexington avenue line from downtown to 125th street. -Nick
"but will be a semi-express"
Like partially pregnant? eh?
If all trains stop at all stations it cannot be an express.
No, it will not connect with the IRT, even if it stands on its head and wiggles its ears.
But it *could* and *should* extend to the Bronx *eventually*, and then an express run from 125th street to 57th street or so would be appropriate.
In the Bronx it could continue as a new subway line along Third Avenue to Fordham University.
Elias
""but will be a semi-express"
Like partially pregnant? eh?
If all trains stop at all stations it cannot be an express."
Semi-express, meaning there could be up to 40 blocks between each local stop! (i.e. 86th to 125th st.) -Nick
9/11 has had much effect on a lot of things. But one immediate and direct effect has been the erection of a mechanism to restore and actually enhance subway service. A new transit hub in lower Manhattan is in the works; the IRT is being rebuilt as we post.
Significantly The Second Avenue Subway has been identified as a key new service, more needed now because NYC government recognizes just how tenuous automobile routes have become. East Side Access, often linked to Second Av as a pair, becomes a lot more important too, and it is currently under construction, on the Queens side, with the 63rd Street LIRR tunnel having already been built and lengthened to meet the Sunnyside Yard.
So nothing's changed, really. The Second Avenue subway process is on track, with an EIS due at the end of this year.
I think this project will be delayed and finally postponed indefinitely (like happened twice already.) I think this project may come back in another 30 years and those of us still here will be asking the same question of when will be it be built.
Personally, I think it sounds like a broken record.
Hey they get suspended and 20 years after it is used as a excuse for to give money to the mafia/influential people.
Significantly The Second Avenue Subway has been identified as a key new service, more needed now because NYC government recognizes just how tenuous automobile routes have become. East Side Access, often linked to Second Av as a pair, becomes a lot more important too, and it is currently under construction, on the Queens side, with the 63rd Street LIRR tunnel having already been built and lengthened to meet the Sunnyside Yard.
So nothing's changed, really. The Second Avenue subway process is on track, with an EIS due at the end of this year
.
I don't quite grasp the link between the Second Avenue Subway and the tenuousness of automobile routes. If somehow Alien Space Bats were to bring the SAS into existence today, very few of the riders would have switched from driving. The SAS would instead ease overcrowding on the Lexington line, and draw some people from buses.
I certainly would be very happy to see some realistic progress toward the SAS being made, but I'm not holding my breath. There have been too many false starts to think that this time will be different.
The connection to automobiles is really the same rationale as before 9/11, but it is more urgent: in order to accommodate incoming transit and commuter rail traffic, especially now that it is increasing, you need a new line to take pressure off the Lex. Without the SAS, East Side Access is an exercise in advanced sardine canning.
Without the SAS, East Side Access is an exercise in advanced sardine canning.
Quite true, but unfortunately it's highly unlikely that the SAS will be running by the time East Side Access opens.
Without the SAS, East Side Access is an exercise in advanced sardine canning.
That's something that amazes me. The East Side Acess ( a very good project) is set to open way before the SAS. Doesn't it seem logical that the SAS should open before the east side connector? The already jammed Lex will become even more jammed.
Such sardine canning as they might be forced to build a proper 2nd Av Line...
"Without the SAS, East Side Access is an exercise in advanced sardine canning."
How so? The Lex bottlenecks are the downtown express all the way from 86th to Fulton St, and the downtown local to 42nd (it empties out significantly at 42nd). LI to lower Manhattan will still be faster via Brooklyn than via GCT.
How so? The Lex bottlenecks are the downtown express all the way from 86th to Fulton St, and the downtown local to 42nd (it empties out significantly at 42nd). LI to lower Manhattan will still be faster via Brooklyn than via GCT.
With the ES Access, you will be dumping all those additional onto the Lex. How will that NOT add to the bottlenecking of the LEx?
You're not describing the Lex accurately. It does not empty significantly at 42nd, for one (it trades the sardines for tuna), and for another there is a significant reverse commute which occurs northbound which will be encouraged by the new LIRR service -in essence, GCT's popularity, and crowding, will increase.
Why not rewire the R-142s to open the doors 1 second before the train actually is at zero miles an hour. Like the Montreal system does. How hard is a firmware update, they will eventually have to ad changes to the automated voice (V at 53, BD at broadway lafayette,FW at 59,QW at 14, QW at canal). And whats the point of a firmware update feature if you never update it?
If you want to kill auto drivers, build a new ROW down the LIE (hahahahahahhhh) that takes 1 1/2 from each side. Go to hell express busses.
... down the LIE (hahahahahahhhh) that takes 1 1/2 LANES from each side ...
Nah.... it can be elevated. Take only one lane total.
The INBOUND lane! What the heck if it is too hard to drive in maybe the geese will take the train instead.
Elias
What would you have done back in 1900?
Buildmorelines!!!
- How far along the LIE would your Line extend? Would it be 2 or 4 Track? What stops would you put in? Would the line go to Manhattan and if so how?
I twould be a 2 track commuter stlye line only 3-4 stations in queens.
crushed and is not on a barge out to sea.
If you mean now instead of not, then I'll have you know that the barge hit an iceberg and sank into the murky depths of the Atlantic, where unfortunately it's lackluster construction caused it to immediately collapse on itself because of the intense pressure.
It's now been covered until hot volcanic plumes and is almost certainly melted by now. :-)
I hope the MTA is not waiting for people to be pushed off the over-crowded platforms before they decide to build another line for the East side. It's bad enough that the current Communications rooms project have effectively shorten the width of the platforms from 10 feet to 5 feet at busy stations like 86 St and 77 St.
What are communications rooms and what purpose do they serve? Also if people do fall off they will simply close the station because it is a saftey hazard.
I finnaly rode on a R142. I go on the subway very few times and the IRT even less. I was on the 6 uptown. The brakes seemed to make more noise than the redbirds. I did not care for the R142, maybe it was not a typical one. Going back downtown I was on a redbird, the trip was very smooth. The train was in very good shape.
There are no redbirds on the 6......... Unless it was the ghost of Pelham Bay???????
My error In took the 6 up to 79 street and walked back to 59 vstreet and got on a 5 train
Note: The 6 line has R142As, not R142s...Big difference...the 6 has Japanes-make machines, not the Canadian Bacon (Bits)...:)
My mind is starting to go on me (like you hadn't figured that out by now).
I forget what the colors of the 13 & 14 bullets are on the rollsigns on the R62/62A.
Did anyone have a webpage set up with all this on it?
Thanks,
Allan
Allan, if you want to have fun rolling signs, go to this site, have fun rolling the R62 signs, and you will find the answers.
Chaohwa
Chaohwa,
Many thanks.
Allan
Hmm ... I can't get to it ....
--Mark
It worked for me.
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/rollsign/[URL]
(I'll bet I still can't get a link set up)
The webmaster will be gone for 3 years. I guess he hasn't payed his dues. So it won't be back till 2004.
TransferPoint
The Menu on the left-hand side of the page will guide you to the Rollsign Gallery. Just click on "Transit Museum" once the page loads, then click on "Rollsign Gallery."
I can't get into the site either but the colors are RED for 13 and Green for 14. The color scheme is used in the fantasy map that is in nycsubway.org.
Regards,
Jose
Let me think. I think...
RED: 1,2,3,9,12,13
GREEN: 4,5,6,8,10,14
PURPLE: 7,11
:-) Andrew
Peace
David
Matter of fact here is a picture of one. Not one of the best pictures, but it's proof/proff that the sign exists...
7 Local.
I've just had a chance to examine the April 29 Northeast Corridor schedule, and have noted a reduction in Acela Express weekend service.
The following trains (which didn't serve Washington) no longer appear:
2291 (Sat) BOS-NYP 1600-1942
2293 (Sun) BOS-NYP 1700-2042
2290 (Sat & Sun) NYP-BOS 0803-1147
So the last AE leaving BOS for NYP on Saturday is now 1300, and the first AE leaving NYP for BOS on both Saturday and Sunday is now 1203. (I took 2290 on a Sunday morning last month, and it was very busy!)
Weekday schedules appear unchanged.
Now that I think about it, you are right, they are no longer there. I wonder why they did that.
Is it because of service cuts?
Four years ago, there were 4 Metroliner roundtrips on Saturday and 8 roundtrips on Sunday between DC and NY. Currently there are 5 Acela Express roundtrips on Saturday and 8 roundtrips on Sunday between NY and DC. Is it the sign of "back to normal"? Just guessing.
Chaohwa
I was pouring over some old subway maps from the second 12 Historical Maps set and....
It seems to show an H&M line diverging south from Christopher Street along 9th Street terminating at Broadway (at Wanamaker's - - - Well, DUH! it *is* their map!)
Let's go spelunking and see if we can find this line!
Elias
Don't bother. That tunnel was never built.
All you will see is the tunnel heading just north of the 9th St station.
this is just a provision for a line that was never built. The original concept was to extend the line to meet the IRT at Astor Place.
Another never built line was an extension to Grand Central (space still exists in the landing fropm the 4 platforms to the 7 platform. This space is proposed to be used in the East Side Access provision to allow train service from Pennto Grand Central.
Just north of 9St/PATH was a heading that would have gone to Astor Place. The route only goes beyond the curve.
Halfway up the esculator at the s/e of the island platform at Grand Central/#7 line was to have been a mezzazine to the H&M tubes coming up from 33/6.
I've never heard about any rail connection from Penn Station to Grand Central. Closest I've heard is the connector linking Grand Central with LIRR at sunnyside yard.
I've never heard about any rail connection from Penn Station to Grand Central. Closest I've heard is the connector linking Grand Central with LIRR at sunnyside yard.
You obviously haven't been keeping up with your homework. A rail connection from Penn Station to GCT is one of the options being explored by the people doing the Access to the Region's Core study. For more information click here.
Would that connect the Metro North West of Hudson lines directly to Grand Central (and Penn)?
Yes, through the proposed "Secaucus Loop." For a look at a map showing the proposed connection, cleck here.
WOOOOH, Where did you get this?
WOOOOH, Where did you get this?
I don't quite understand how you could look at it without your browser showing the URL. Any way, the URL is
http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/shared/images/alternativeg.gif
With all the bitching recently about people not wanting to bother with cut and paste of URLs and demanding clickable links, it's a little bit funny to be asked to post the URL.
What is most telling is the "relocated Lex SB local track. And how will these geniuses accomplish this without MAJOR disruption?
What is most telling is the "relocated Lex SB local track. And how will these geniuses accomplish this without MAJOR disruption?
By finishing the Second Avenue Subway first?
What is most telling is the "relocated Lex SB local track. And how will these geniuses accomplish this without MAJOR disruption?
I had thought they planned to run the ARC tunnels up Madison, the one avenue without any trains under it already? Why go through the incredible pain of relocating the East Side IRT under Park when you could have "clean" construction under Madison?
You might have to turn the top end somewhat to angle into GCT -- or is this a result of using the former MNRR yard at GCT as the LIRR mezzanine for East Side access, meaning that the platforms for NJT that would have gone there now can't, so you have to double-end some of the current lower level?
What is most telling is the "relocated Lex SB local track. And how will these geniuses accomplish this without MAJOR disruption?
I had thought they planned to run the ARC tunnels up Madison, the one avenue without any trains under it already? Why go through the incredible pain of relocating the East Side IRT under Park when you could have "clean" construction under Madison?
You might have to turn the top end somewhat to angle into GCT -- or is this a result of using the former MNRR yard at GCT as the LIRR mezzanine for East Side access, meaning that the platforms for NJT that would have gone there now can't, so you have to double-end some of the current lower level?
I believe there is a difference between "an option being explored" and a project in progress. Is the connection between Penn Station and GCT being built or are people just talking about it?
At this point, Alternative G is but one of the three options for increased trans-Hudson rail service. Alternative S will add a 3rd tunnel under the East River, linking Tracks 1 to 5 at Penn Station to Sunnyside yard. Alternative P will create a new level at Penn Station. All three are the same on the west side of the Hudson.
All concerned seem to agree that the existing Hudson River rail tunnels are being used to capacity and that tech fixes will only marginally increase that capacity. Thus, a new tunnel seems assured. The disputes are over where to place the tunnel and what to do with the trains as they emerge -- terminate them at new platforms at Penn Station, terminate them at GCT, or terminate them in Queens. Having survived several years of competition with many other alternatives to become one of three finalists, Alternative G has a substantial chance of getting built.
"Having survived several years of competition with many other alternatives to become one of three finalists, Alternative G has a substantial chance of getting built."
Sure, if "substantial" means more than 1% probability.
Once the LIRR goes to GCT, which is actually underway, the only people who truly benefit from a Penn to GCT tunnel are New Jersey commuters. I don't see that there are enough of those to spend the many billions of dollars we're talking about.
There's more people and money on the Upper East side, and that isn't getting the 2nd Ave subway built. This project has fewer people and less financial clout behind it.
If you think that there will never be another rail tunnel under the Hudson, I think you are mistaken. The current tunnel is at capacity and demand for more capacity is going to increase. That's why the current study is under way. In a rational world, the result of the study would certainly get built. Even in our crazy world, there's a good chance.
"If you think that there will never be another rail tunnel under the Hudson, I think you are mistaken."
I do agree there is real hope (and need) for another tunnel under the Hudson. What I was suggesting as highly improbable was a railroad connection directly between Penn and GCT.
It goes back about 250 feet beyond the electrical switchgear that blocks the entrace to the diverging tunnel. The original ring erecting machine (for the tunnel lining rings) is still back there. I'd advise against trespassing down there - the PA has absolutely no sense of humor about this, particularly these days.
As if the PA ever had a sense of humor?
We're kinda pushing the concept on them over on Harry's place. Wonder if they read any of it? :)
We're kinda pushing the concept on them over on Harry's place. Wonder if they read any of it? :)
I doubt it, but maybe the FBI will in their expanded search for terrorists. :)
This memorial day weekend, my wife and I will be taking our annual anniversary trip to Maine and Boston. I plan to visit the museum at Seashore on either Saturday or Sunday, and we'll be in Boston on Monday and Tuesday. First, will anyone perhaps be at Seashore that weekend? Second, would anyone like to do some T riding with me in Boston on Monday or Tuesday? Email me or reply here soon so I can beg my so-far-understanding-of-my-train-obsession wife for some railfan time. (She probably wouldn't mind the time apart so she can shop!)
Keystone Pete.... Memorial Day weekend is "Members Weekend" at Seashore. So there will be lots going on, especially on Saturday. I plan on being there myself -- I've been asked to drive the "lunch bus" into town for those who would like to ride a Fishbowl.
Hope to see you and other SubTalkers then.
(Monday I'll be in NYC for the next installment of Transit & Weather Together)
Remember and GOs that proved memorable in that they were very complicated for the rider or TO. Remember any that caused you to have to go way off your normal route or board several extra trains? What's the worst? Just curious.
The most complicated GO I remember, when the 5 use to run on the 1 downtown (Or Uptown I can't remember), and the 3 had to stop at Times Square. It may have been Penn station but it wasn't the worst.
The worst is the one going on right now. Since the 1's now going to Brooklyn instead of the 3.
This wasn't complicated from a passenger's perspective, but it must have been a logistical nuisance for the TA.
Back in the mid-80's, the northbound local track at Aves. H J and M was out of service and temporary platforms were constructed which reached out to the express track to provide Manhattan bound service. On weekends, I guess the work was more extensive, so Manhattan bound trains would use the southbound express track to go north.
This required trains to enter Kings Highway on the uptown local track. Then they would reverse direction to cross over to the northbound express and then southbound express. Then they would proceed north again. If I remember correctly, trains would then stop again at Kings Highway going Manhattan bound.
Apparently, there were T/O's assigned to spend their entire Saturday making this reverse move and then switching platforms to do it all over again. I recall some of them taking the switches at a pretty high rate of speed.
CG
Nightmare GOs? We are living in one now, although most people have gotten used to it.
GO dated July 22, 2001 closed the north side of the Manhattan Bridge to revenue service resulting in B and D service cut back to 34/6; creation of W service in Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queens; creation of 6th Ave shuttle from Queensbridge to B'way/Lafayette; creation of Grand St shuttle from Grand St to B'way/Lafayette; creation of ; all Q service returned to normal route over south side of Manhattan Bridge, terminating at 57/7.
Anticipated date of completion - 2004.
This GO cancels GO #, dated sometime in the early 90's.
Any fan trip has a complex GO. At one time the GO included a time schedule which was later dropped and only its routing remained.
The one I remember was way back when both sides of the Man Bridge were still open, but they were doing weekend work on the Brighton tracks, and had closed them. So. The D was sent to Manhattan via Montague, then Naussau/Centre St all the way to the Wil Bridge. Then, it reversed and took the Chrystie St. route to B'way-Lafayette. I went out of my way to take this detour. I've been on revenue service thru the Chrystie connection! This is not quite a moibus, but gets halfway there.
The one I remember was way back when both sides of the Man Bridge were still open, but they were doing weekend work on the Brighton tracks, and had closed them. So. The D was sent to Manhattan via Montague, then Naussau/Centre St all the way to the Wil Bridge. Then, it reversed and took the Chrystie St. route to B'way-Lafayette
I think that one wins, maybe not as one of the MOST complicated, but definitely as one of the most interesting. I believe I remember that one vaguely. How long ago was it that they did that?
Was this wiht R68s or R42s?
I forget, but I do remember there was NO railfan window. This was the only time I did the Crystie St. connection, and there was nothing to see.
By the time the 68's came, the policy was to send all trains to the other side of the bridge (like now). I remember the Nassau reroutes with 42's and 32's. I don't know if I ever saw this done with 44's, but that would have been the only non-railfan window train to run that way, if they ever even went through there.
The most complicated G.O. I remember had the A trains skipping Rockaway Boulevard, 88th Street, and 80th Street going northbound on the middle track and having to relay in Pitkin Yard to get to the Euclid Avenue station and resume normal to Manhattan. . . all the while being in passenger service!
It was the first and only time I remember being on a train as a passenger and in the yard. Looking around and seeing tracks and switches gave me the feeling of being Alice in Wonderland. :)
Wow, when did this happen? I'm pissed off I missed it!
This was many years ago; I'm guessing the early '90s. I know it was on the weekend. Track repairs were being done on the northbound track between 88th Street and Grant Avenue.
This was the first and only time I ever witnessed a G.O. like that.
A few months ago, an advisory of this sort was posted on the TA's web site, although by the time it was posted it was over or almost over. (It was a one-day Friday midday GO, and the service advisories are posted on Fridays.) I don't remember exactly which stops were skipped nor do I know if trains ran through the yard.
In my knowledge the most complicated G.O. I remember was when (last April...2001) they had the D train running in 2 sections, from 205th Street Bronx, to (then) World Trade Center via the 8th Avenue Line, and from 34th-6th to Coney Island. This was SO COMPLICATED, because everyone who wanted to get to Rockefeller Center, Brooklyn, Grand Street and all the regular D line stops were so confused, and my train (I was working the 205-WTC half) and many others were delayed extensively due to all the customer confusion, and after talking and telling people how to go in the right direction to get to where they wanna go, I was getting confused, and the situation was quite trying and stressing. I did my best despite the confusion and an awful lot of bad tempers, although thur all the mess, and talking myself to death, I managed to have a number of people thanking me for my help and telling me I was doing a good job. That G.O. was complicated.
And the G.O. that seemed to go on forever when there was no E train service, and the R replaced the Es from Parsons Archer. That was was......man don't even let me get started on that. You talk about mass mass mass confusion. On top of everything the Queens Division was still delay-ridden, the equipment (R-46) sucked (slooooow doors), and the messages that were supposed to be posted to relay the service changes to everyone were non-existent in a large number of stations; this all in turn added to the complication.
This isn't exactly a GO, but more of an emergency reroute. It was June 2000 and I was coming home from Flatbush Avenue. I went to Atlantic to get the N toget home, but as I got there, a train was pulling out, don't remember which train it was, but it was last one to see Pacific for the rest of the night. By that time, Bs were stopping at Dekalb (it was around 10) and as the next train left it derailed. I Then had to take a 4 to get to a 6 to get to 51 St to get an F to come back to Stillwell to get an N to Bay Parkway. N trains were running in 2 sections, Astoria to lower Manhattan IIRC, and Stillwell to 36 St.
Well, I missed 51 St but got off at 59th and came back down one stop. Then on the F, the C/R said that there were transfers to the NR at 4th Avenue, so I got off but service was not restored yet and the only thing being offered was a shuttle bus from 36th to Atlantic stopping at all the stops inbetween. They were running on 3rd Ave and I went and waited from half an hour to an hour. A total of 1 bus came by and it was full so it skipped us. I went back to the subway to take the F to Stillwell. Got home at 2AM.
n train,
june 2000 eh? could this be the infamous night of our graduation?
dear god man, you shouldve come home with me instead!
The most complicated are the ones like this with the 2 and 4 switching routes in Manhattan (sometimes one direction. And then the similar ones when South Ferry loop was open, and the 2 or 5 went around the lopp to continue to Brooklyn. Also the Lenox rehab with the hybrid 2/5 service via 7th Ave. and Lenox. And a big switch replacement around Atlantic in the early 90's which cut all IRT service between Brooklym and Manhattan and they instituted a "J4 Shuttle" between Chambers and Pacific. At first it was just the J extended to 95th (All weekend long), but the next time it was a shuttle that relayed at Chambers and Pacific.
The Lenox Rehab Project had to be one of the most complicated that I could recall.
2s ran in the morning via 7th Ave, to the Bronx via the Lex;
PMs it was just the opposite. Any 2s that ran northbound on 7th Avenue in the AMs were layups after 96th St.
3s ran to 137th St, with trains to/from 148th St during the rush hour and in one direction only.
I'd say it was pretty complicated having Lenox Av service only in one direction during the couse of the day. At least on the weekends, it was possible to run the 2 in both directions on 7th Av with single track operation and 24 minute headways to/from 241 St (gasp).
------
Another GO which occurred in December 1990 was rather interesting: From Saturday Night to Sunday Afternoon, there were various service suspensions on the 1/2/3. IIRC, they were doing work on the switches at 96th St.
-No 1 Service between 72 and 103 Sts.
-No 2 Service Southbound from 110th St to Borough Hall.
-No 3 Servcice between 148th St and TSQ.
There was local service available southbound from 72nd St provided by the #1. #2s ran up 7th Avenue making all stops, but returned to Flatbush by the Lex. A special #2 shuttle provided service (downtown only) between Mott Av (149th St) and 110th St. Shuttle buses connected the 1/2/3 with the A,C,D at 103rd and 110th Sts. It was also one of the few times that I can recall where you could use Regular Service Buses to get to where you had to be. If you needed to be at 148th St on the 3, Transit encouraged you to take the IND to 145th St and transfer to the BX19.
A number of things happened during the 1990 GO.
Unless I am mistaken:
#1s that travelled between South Ferry and 72nd St operated express from Chambers to TSQ, then operated by the spur track to the southbound express track to 72nd St. Trains would relay at 79th St and come back in on the normal local track. They crossed over the 2s that were making local stops.
At 103rd St, these 1s were either single tracked to/from 137th St or relayed south of 103rd St, to the middle, and then on the uptown track. Single tracking seems more likely if they were doing switch repairs.
#2 shuttles turned at Jackson Middle and south of 110th St.
#3s turned on the northbound express track at TSQ.
A water main an asbestos mess in October 1989 @ 42nd/8th created these unusual service changes which lasted 2 weeks:
A service running between Queens and Penn Station only. Express service in Brooklyn suspended. I actually saw a red R30 A train during this GO.
C service was completely suspended.
E service ran via the Sixth Ave line from 5th Ave to W4th St.
B service running from 47/50th St. to CI rush hours only. Other times it terminated as 36th St. in Brooklyn.
D Ran local 24/7 north of Columbus Circle, including in the Bronx.
Q service replaced the A in northern Manhattan, running from 207th St to Brighton Beach. The only time I ever saw an R38 venture onto the Brighton line.
23rd/8th and 57th/6th were completely closed. This was before 63rd. St opened.
Pardon my ignorance. But what does "G.O." stand for? General orders?
It's nice being ignored.
Sorry CM, but once in a while a message slips through the cracks (I've had quite a few).
G.O. does indeed stand for "General Orders" (aka track work).
Thank you.
I can remember two from Queens Blvd around '99...
One GO that was quite complicated was when they closed all service between Roosevelt and Manhattan on the Queens Blvd Line:
R - Astoria to 95st Brooklyn
E - Jamaica Center to Roosevelt, Express. Turned using the switch between the express tracks.
F - 179st to Roosevelt, Local. Turned using the switch at 46st.
Anyone going to Manhattan from Queens Blvd ended up on the 7.
A shuttle bus ran from Roosevelt to Queensboro Plaza for local customers.
I believe G customers could transfer to the 7 at 45road.
The other one was the 71/Continental switch replacement. Here's what was going on:
R - Somewhere other than Queens Blvd.
E - Trains ran in two sections: WTC to Roosevelt, and Van Wyck Blvd to Jamaica CTR. Anyone going between the Archer ave branch and the 179 branch would have to transfer an extra time just to get to the crossover at Union TPK. Also, the E turned on the northbound express track at Roosevelt and ran express to/from QP.
F - Trains ran every 12 minutes. Northbound trains ran local from QP to Roosevelt, than express on the local to Continental and normal after that.
However, Southbound trains pulled into continental on the southbound express (inches from where the trackwork was going on), reversed direction and crossed over to the northbound express, then re-entered 71/continental. Then, the trains would wait until the previous F arrived at Roosevelt, and by that time the next F was already waiting on the southbound express for us to leave so it could do the double reversing thing. Southbound Fs wrong-railed on the express to roosevelt, and switched to the normal express track north of the station, and then again crossed to the local track south of the station.
Local stops between Roosevelt and 71st were served by shuttle bus.
So both single crossovers at Roosevelt and the one single crossover at continental all were used for this G.O.
Wow that 7 train must've been packed like a super compressed sardine can.
[... the 71/Continental switch replacement.... Local stops between Roosevelt and 71st were served by shuttle bus.]
The bus part was interesting, too:
* From Roosevelt via Broadway and Queens Blvd, making all local stops.
* After drop-off at 71 Avenue, the buses went all the way to Union Turnpike to turn around and lay over.
* From 71st Avenue via Queens Blvd, right on Broadway, left on Woodside Avenue, right on 69th Street, right on 37th Avenue, right on Broadway to 74th Street. In other words, the buses served local Queens Blvd Line stops to Elmhurst Avenue, then 69th Street station for transfers to #7, then Roosevelt Avenue station for transfers to Manhattan-bound E, F.
Actually, the worst GO's were the ones late at night (since I'm a musician I was ALWAYS riding the subways home at ungodly hours) in the 80's where there was no subway service at all....You'd have to get out and catch a bus.
1st place worst:
In about 1985, no trains between E 180th St. and 149th St./3rd Ave. in the Bronx. A long and crowded bus ride, at 3 a.m.
The J was often a victim of this in the 1980's as well. EVERY summer from 1985-1991, J service would always be replaced by a bus from either Eastern Parkway or Crescent St to Jamaica (121 St. before 1989). every weekday from 10PM - 3PM and on weekends. A bizarre GO in 1987/88 had the J operating from Eastern Parkway to 36th St. in Brooklyn every weekday in this manner as well due to GO's on the M line.
Back in January '91, there must've been some heavy weekend work on the outer Flushing line, because I was able to board a special M-1 train at the LIRR Flushing station and ride nonstop to Hunters Point, where transfer tickets were available to the subway. That's the ONLY time I can remember the LIRR pinch-hitting like that.
Reversing the trip, there were a lot of confused passengers at Hunters Point who apparently thought there was regular LIRR service. One woman kept yelling over and over "Doesn't this go to Wantagh?!" Quite a trick, considering HP doesn't even HAVE regular weekend service, just peak directional. At the time, I don't think it had any electric service, either- save for one Ronkonkoma train.
I vaguely remember that GO also. I believe they even pasted purple &'s on the front of the M1'S for that.
I believe they even pasted purple &'s on the front of the M1'S for that.
That was supposed to say purple "7's" I hit the shift by accident.
I sent my friend to DC Union Station at noon today. She took the 1:05 PM Acela Regional to New York. When I went up to the parking lot, I saw her train did not leave the station for nearly 10 minutes. Then I saw the 1PM Acela Express Train #2166 (Trainset #18) stuck north of the station. Trainset #18 than was back to the station! Clearly Trainset #18 had mechanical problems.
When I see the current status of Train #2166, it is delayed by 55 minutes now. At Union Station, after Train #2153 (Trainset #11) arrived at Union Station, it only rested for only a hour and then was used at Train #2168 (2PM departure). Usually it stays for two hours and then departs as Train #2170 (3PM departure). Clear today's AE dispatchment is very very tight.
A lot of repairs to do. Today is not a good day for AE trainsets.
Chaohwa
Satisfaction Guaranteed!
Crank up the voucher-printer...$$ Cha-ching! $$
Below is the URL of a photo that showed up on ABPR recently. It shows a burned-out MBTA rapid transit car, but what's really interesting is the steeplecab locomotive to the right. Can anyone identify what this is, and what happened to it?
Frank Hicks
http://abpr2.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/abprphoto.cgi?/railpix/ABPR/april02/04-18-02/MBTa01410inEverettYard3-28-75Sz.jpg
For those who don't visit Harry's site and are interested in railroad train (as opposed to subway train) photos, last week I posted eleven photographs of the Legislators' Limited, a chartered train that operated on freight-only track in Philly on Thursday May 9 in conjunction with the Pennsylvania Freight Railroaders Convention. The train used Bennett Levin's PRR Tuscan red E8's and had his PRR #120 open-end observation car "Pennsylvania" bringing up the rear. The eleven photos filled out my 36-shot Webshots Around Philly 3 page.
Last night I uploaded a whole 36-shot page with additional shots of the Legislators' Express, as well as freight equipment encountered during the chase, to my Philly May 9, 2002 page.
Does anybody know if there is still any retired subway cars based at subway yards? If so could I have a list of the car numbers.
For one you can go the Rolling Stock link on this web site and hit the retired cars link on the IRT.These cars are work service trains, if you have some spare time you can go up to the yards and look around you might find some retired cars also.I hope this helps.
Thanks for info MR.GEE, but its on my head that sometimes when I see 2 R30 sitting @ 207 Street Yard from University Heights Bridge I always wonder what are the two married pair #'s? Besides what do they used them for because it doesn't say in the R27/30 page that there isn't one @ 207 Street Yard?
When was the last time the R9s were used for a fan trip.
Anywhere? Well... last Sunday from Highwood to South Boston and back at the Seashore Trolley Museum. Cars 800/1440 (techically R4 & R7A).
There was at least one SubTalker there to participate!
Not to downplay Seashore, Todd, I WILL visit there sometime, but I have to say on members day at Branford I rode about five roundtrips to Short Beach on R-9 1689. It was coupled with their Low-V. However to be technical, I must admit the original poster asked the last time and Seashore was the last time.
Yes, that was me bowing down to Sir Todd as he operated 800/1440 out of Highwood to South Boston in shuttle service ....
--Mark
Members Day (April 29, 2002) at BERA lashed to a Low-V. She also made two round trips SOLO, boy she can move by herself but she ain't SMEE on the braking end.....hehe...
R9's can stop very nicely too ... you just gotta PLAN for it. Heh. Once you get used to manual lapping, they're pussies ...
!?!?
Now behave yourself. I'm going to Branford with BMTman and Thurston only moments from now. I'll have to try the R-9 and see if your theory applies............
-Stef
You'll see ... pull ... set it away in lap, release as required. And when you get REAL good at the old hand-pull, you can remove the butt plug and enjoy all-air braking the way it was MEANT to be enjoyed. Like a good BRT car ... electric braking is for whooses. :)
I remember hearing that familiar "tch-sssss" magnet valve sound from 1689 back in 1980 and thought I was back on the IND again.:-)
I like that 6688 story better. It almost ran past the end of the line once - stopped just in time. I don't think it lost its brakes; it just built up a big head of steam down the straightaway to Short Beach.
Hadn't heard the whole story ... a train can get away from you since braking isn't quite like driving a car. There's a time lag and you have to build that into your marker calculations. The arnines were peppy (when they had motors) and slow on stopping. That was one of the reasons why I preferred to stick to one car class on my runs since the 32's were COMPLETELY different ... the TA on the other hand had an attitude that all cars were the same and that just wasn't the case. All had the same braking and acceleration specs and yet some cars definitely did both differently despite identical "specs" ...
I have seen and photographed 6688 at Shoreline, but haven't ridden on it. From what I understand it runs great, and its SMEE brakes are a bit sensitive. I also heard you don't always realize just how fast you're going on 6688 until it's time to stop. Then it's "Whooooaaaaa!!!" AFAIK that's what happened that one particular time. Don't know if they threw it into emergency or not.
If I remember school car properly, the last thing you want to do is DUMP an SMEE - all you get is flat wheels and slide. You want to pull a full service of course. I imagine that's what they did. You lose your dynamics when you dump and the stopping distance is longer. It's a pity that the run at Branford is so short (even shorter for a straightaway "let it gallop") but then again a short run is far better than none at all so I won't whine. :)
Just wait 'till we straighten out that S-curve. Wetlands, Schmetlands!
THAT I'd like to see. Running an R9 at less than 45 is sacrilege. They like to purr up to speed and then coast to the stop. :)
You said it.
Of course, pitting 1689 against 6688 would be pretty cool.
Hey Dave,
Is that before or after the seperate main line for us "Street Car
Fanatics" with loops at both ends for: 27, 1001, 2898, 1706 etc?
Then we can race the SMEE against a PCC. Oh pardon waa, we'll have
a R-62 single by then. >G<
:-) Sparky
That's something ELSE I'd love to see ... and yes, I know the PCC would win that hands down. Them puppies can haul as the folks in Newark are learning the hard way. :)
First, please excuse Dave as he's forgotten his meds again.
If our R-17 and Newark PCC were to race on a long straight
track, the R-17 would win. It has a balancing speed of 50 MPH
while the PCC is 42. However, the PCC has a higher acceleration
rate so given our short straight-aways, the PCC will reach a
higher speed. Likewise, our North Shore car has the highest
balancing speed in the collection, but it would take a mile to
reach that speed. Much more fun running that car class out at IRM!
Heh. I actually ENJOY Dave when he comes up a brick shy on his meds. Remember, I'm in this for FUN. I already did it as WORK years ago so you'll never catch me taking it seriously. Yeah, I know about the balancing speeds but I was also thinking of the curvature and slow orders on your railroad down there so the way it looked to me when I made the preposterous assumption was that the winner in any race down yonder would be the one out of the gate first, so I wagered on the PCC. Now put them both on the Rockaway straightaway or the CPW dash and we know 1689'd dust 'em both. :)
Mind....strong.......body......weak......
........must........post....on....SubTalk.....
Dewd ... take yer ritalin ... NICE paisley R9. :)
and we know 1689'd dust 'em both. :)
Not to be a party-pooper, but an R-17 is faster than an R-9 in
all respects except perhaps perceived speed.
Those damn clunkers! I love my R-17s.....
-Stef
Yo Unca Stef! Don't mess with us IND boys or I'll be forced to rewire your shunts. :)
an R-17 is faster than an R-9 in all respects except perhaps perceived speed.
What about minimum stopping distance from MAS?
I would expect a major advantage there too SO LONG AS you don't DUMP the train. Arnines were straight air with an electric valve assist, the 17's had dynamics and blending so you had the advantage if you needed to stop of both air and dynamics. The 17's could seriously stop if you so applied. Here's it's 17 HANDS DOWN and geese through the front glass if the operator were so inclined.
The R-17 stops better than the R-9, even on pure friction braking.
As for the current fleet with comp shoes and J14 valves, that's
another story.
The R-17 stops better than the R-9, even on pure friction braking.
As for the current fleet with comp shoes and J14 valves, that's another story.
Not according to the TA's Powerpoint explanation of the Williamsburg Bridge wreck, on their BBS. The R1-9 fleet had a maximum stopping distance of 250 feet from MAS. This was increased to 275 feet, starting with the R10's.
The R10's were SMEE - I'm sure the difference was the result of dynamics in the mix. But more importantly, weren't those figures based on the transit authority replacing the cast iron shoes with Buster Browns?
That's obviously wrong. MAs on the WB, or MAS on the system?
Jeff may be right, but the R-9 does make better noises < G >
Mr rt__:^)
You got that right. Moans, groans, and grunts galore.
IIRC 6688 will accelerate faster than 1689, but given a sufficient length of track, 1689 will catch up.
"... but given a sufficient length of track, 1689 will catch up"
Right, she, a Standard or a D Type will sing to you all the while she's catching up ... and got to have those paddle fans on too, even if its 30 outside < G >
But of course...:-)
And have the heat on even when it's 95 degrees...
Now you know why I was always HAPPY to pass up a bingbong for my firebreathers. :)
Party pooper. :)
Yeah, I know you're right but some of us have favorites which is why everybody believes for a FACT that the "hippos" are 10-25 MPH slower than a BUS. Heh.
I believe !
"... I was also thinking of the curvature and slow orders on your railroad down there ..."
There are some of us at Shoreline who are always willing to help our MOW Foreman when he's in town just to help in a small way keep up great condition of the line. Just recently we extended the guard rail on one of the curves & replaced 1/2 dozen ties on another. Had to soak my bluejeans in Lestoil to get the tar out.
Mr rt__:^)
Ya know? I never did ANY trackwork and yet Lestoil did its duty on my jeans just from sitting down in the cab in the years of yore. But yes, I've seen a number of pictures of the condition of the track, including you and your buddy supervising Dougie on jackhammer. The pics definitely show the degree of dedication you guys have to keeping the railroad going.
It's a pity owing to all those turn of the century ConnCo trolley derailments and their historical value and significance that you guys can't just yank out that damned S curve ... but I do appreciate why you can't.
"... yank out that damned S curve ..."
Actually a lot of colleagues & visitors think IT is what makes our short line more pleasent then most to ride. And, as an operator, it's a good test of your skills to be able to bring the car up to a respectible speed & then get it back down before you touch the gard rail ... especially when you have a car full of critics with you.
However, all of us would love to realy test our skills on Broadway, Central Park West, or the Brighton !
Mr rt__:^)
Heh. yeah, I *do* understand ... don't mind me though ... I wouldn't need Viagara if I could get 1689 up to speed for a few minutes and sorta wish there was someplace to do that. To give you an idea of my desperation, there's a LOVELY run of about 6 miles of abandoned track where I am that would be a NATURAL and the geography out here is such that a couple of stops along the way could actually serve as interesting waypoints for folks to get on and off, do a bit of shopping and moseying around and everything that 1689 or similar cars could compliment. Alas, it'd take Trump to pay for it all. Heh.
If money were no object though, it'd even be nice to have a small portion of tunnel with a subway style stop inside somewhere. I'm willing to settle for the dream though since reality is out of the question. Still, it'd be real nice to be able to run one of them again, it's been better than 30 years since the last time I was in the cab of one of those puppies and I *do* miss it ...
When they use 1689 or 6688 in a movie shoot they sometimes use one of the barns & have a guy run back & forth with lights to simulate the car underground.
One Halloween years ago they ran the trolleys thru a dark barn to scare the kids.
Mr rt__:^)
I'll bet it would be like riding a bicycle, too.:-)
Actually, I'd worry about getting the braking action down again. While it's easy and all, you need a few runs to get the "feel" because every car's braking action is a bit different. Sure a run out with the puppy without a prior would probably have me not do a brickwall stop, I'd need maybe 10-15 runs to be able to hit the marker again. You definitely had to get the "feel" for those cars and after 30 years, I know it won't come back 100% without a few "at bats" on the mound.
So you'd say you're just out of practice, then.
Well ... yeah ... :)
Sparky:
Part of "Secret plan 5A" would be a double track loop around Beacon Hill for turning around the single enders, and to keep you guys out of the way of the hurtling SMEE's.
(Of course, there would be a tower at ConnCo, but that's another "secret" plan!)
A "tower" in the middle of the swamp ... I can hear the NIMBYs tuning up their howling voices.
Mr rt__:^)
1689 can howl even louder.:-)
But she doesn't have as much pull with the Mayor as they do :-(
Feh. You guys just don't have the right knuckle adapter. :)
Dave,
Oh goodie, were getting our own trackage, so we don't have to share
with RT. But if the stepwells are reinstalled in 1227, we'll
allow her to cross over to Streetcar Trackage. Oh by the way
will the towerman @ ConnCo be DB.
:-) Sparky
Only if there's cable TV and a really comfy chair.
Is Tower Operator promotional from Trench Digger at Branford?
Dave,
Would the Chief "TO" vacate the position to the "Trench Digger"?
:-) Sparky
Dave,
Would the Chief "TO" vacate the position to the "Trench Digger"?
:-) Sparky
S curve? What S curve? Oh, THAT S curve!
R9 1689 in the S curve
29 September 2001
R9 1689 up close and personal at the quarry trestle
29 September 2001
Click on the thumbnails for a larger version :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"It's headed right for us"
"Run Away, Run Away, Run Away"
The telephoto makes it look like a freaking jungle! (Time to borrow the chainsaw again)
Maybe this was taken on the Brighton Line before the weed abatement program of the late '60s
The telephoto makes it look like a freaking jungle! (Time to borrow the chainsaw again.)
Aren't you glad I didn't have the real long lens on? If you promise to use it I'll stick my saw in the van on Saturday... ditto for the long-handled pruners... the foliage is getting thick around 22W as well. My back is too far gone now for me to play Jason any more though, I have to let you younger folks do it. Walter and I are coming up to operate on Saturday, we'll drop you off anywhere you want along the line and you can have at it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll be up Friday to help with the fire alarm project.
There are certain members, who will remain nameless, who take it upon themselves to dissapear down the line with sharp tools for long periods of time. Possible to take part in some 'bizarre' pruning ceremony.
Hey Dave,
Has anyone seen the nameless one of late?
:-) Sparky
He's off Mon & Tues, so he was Victor's Apprentice in the AM this past Tuesday, then was busy making lots of Chocks after lunch, because certain operators use them up < G >
Gratified, he's doing something constructive, [Yes, there always seems to be a deficiency of chocks in the operating department,
and all say "It wasn't me", must be the coons muchin aft hours >G<]
Without sounding repetitive it is implicit of him, rather then another
who shall remain obscure, who is wrackful, so he can list time being
inferential.
:-) Sparky
"Why that chock was no good, I just rolled right over it!"
I'm guessing the old crank chains is busticated? Not that I mind real wood in the color of your choice of course, but those cars did have parking brakes ...
BEry practice is to chock, and not to set the hand brake. There is some concern that on a car with a lever-type handbrake handle, it could be released in error, or something could break, and the handle would swing around and clock some visitor in the noggin.
I'm sure one of the Branford Motor Instructors will jump in now with more info...
Sounds like some additional training might be in order but I won't argue with a particular practice of non-TA origin if it makes sense to those involved. But let's be real - a block of wood is going to lose every time - the train always wins if it starts moving.
And yeah, I've gotten some rude awakenings myself in the morning when I dropped the claw on those things and there's a MIGHTY stiff spring under there. I can understand it. THANKS for saying "motor instructor" ... I always thought of "TSS" as a mealy-mouthed word. :)
On basically level track a wedge of wood will keep a car out of harms way & should a operator forget to remove it MOST times she won't go on the ground (I saw one trolley that pushed the choke for a while before the front wheels did a hop).
Also, if you set the hand brake & it stays that way for a while in the salt air it might be hard to release it.
Mr rt__:^)
Coney had similar problems and some goose grease usually kept the saltines dry. but like I said, I respect whatever operating rules are in effect. One thing that's amused me over the years is how no two railroads agree on the "proper way" to operate. If the practice makes sense for you guys, then it's a good one. :)
Dave,
>>>the handle would swing around and clock some visitor in the noggin.<<<
Experience is the best teacher. Back when I was just a motorman,
when 1414 was on site, a group of teenagers where visiting. Well
we relayed the open at FRR and took most on tour. Some just hung
around the yard and were teens. >G< Upon completion and readying
to complete their visit, I released the air and Lord and behold
watched the gooseneck do threesixties, wasn't strapped does days.
So if it was wound and not kicked locked it whirled when brakes
were released.
Also picture this, an unsuspecting operator gets on car, sees its
not chocked and proceeds to power up. Oh, take another point its not moving. Yeah, I seen it with a full application of air at another museum, very colorful, the glow of orange, as the grids fried.
And our exibits are not encased, we are a hands on museum to a degree, living exibits. At times visitors do have a tendency to turn handles and cranks etc, without members present. Release brakes, unit rolls, OH!!! KABOOM!!! DID I DO THAT??? enough said...
Yes, I am a BERA Motor Instructor.
:-) Sparky
Wow ... that was one of the first "hands on" lessons in school car and the basis for many of my own comments here about the first point and the "smell of victory" ... then again, in an enclosed area, you'd get a whiff of the grids pretty quickly if you did something dumb. But handbrakes was one of those things beaten into your head so frequently that you just didn't try to roll unless you were SURE they were all free and if you did your click-click-click and nothing happened but a thud noise, you did three clicks back and find out why.
Schoolcar at Branford must be amusing. :)
Schoolcar at Branford must be amusing.
Frightening is more like it, what with Sparky, Jeff Hakner, and Lou from Brooklyn (among numerous others) as my instructors... one of these days, though, I'll probably end up on their side, teaching a crop of newbies the fine points of wet rail adhesion, using the "creeper" on 629, and how to give an informative tour tailored to the particular audience at hand.
As someone (Thurston?) said in another portion of this thread, we do need to emphasize the historical aspect more than we have been... we have so much more to offer than just a ride, something not all of our sister museums can really say (and those that can don't usually emphasize it any more than we do). Of the dozen or so operating traction and rail museums that I have visited in the past three or four years, only one other - Steamtown - puts the main emphasis on the museum part rather than on the ride. This is not to say that the historical information isn't there - often it is - but the emphasis isn't on it unless you specifically ask for it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. Most of my own "hysterical" data is already in the archives here. Hate to be a bad boy, but I'd only be in it for the handle time and the kibbitzing. I don't think the "guests" would want to hear stories of TMO "Frank." Probably get the museum sued by the MTA.
I'd be a lenient motor instructor - the rules are the rules but my method would be a slow turn of the head towards ya with "well now. Don't you feel stupid after doing that?" ... that's the way it was back in the old days. Now you get a letter in your personnel file and the only way you find out is when you review it for the "performance evaluation" ... I sure do wish I had the time and bucks to come out and play down yonder though ... I could use some R&R and a good dump. :)
"Schoolcar at Branford must be amusing. :) "
As a passenger on the school car, you learn to hold on for dear life. Not everyone grasps the way you have to blow off the air a little for a smooth stop. (Or what "lap" is!!) 'Couple times I thought Instructor Levinson was going thru the front windshield!
BTW, I'm sure my passengers had white knuckles my first time at the handles!
Heh. I take it ConnCo's "successor company" doesn't have company-issued Depends for staff, eh? Yeah, it does take a bit of finesse but it isn't all THAT hard. What I would find amusing though is folks used to running 142's and 143's trying to stop an R9. That's something I'd love to see. :)
What did the New York State Museum do to R-9 #1801? I was unaware that it was modified in any way. Any information would be appreciated. Thank you.
Well ... been more than 10 years since I've seen her. She's set up on the floor of the "Metropolis Hall" an exhibit of various cities in NYS. At the time, *ALL* of the undercar had been removed ... ALL of it - trucks, compressors, grids, you name it. I asked one of the curators what happened to the removed equipment and nobody was sure other than it was "probably in storage in the Education Building" which underwent major renovations at that time and much of the museum's storage items were relocated or discarded. Today, nobody knows what became of any of her parts. She was set up on blocks of sorts with a psuedo-platform on one side, signed up as an A train to Hudson Terminal.
The car was rewired so that all bulbs inside were parallel wired for 120 AC and the cabs were welded shut. They then replaced the seats, removed the rollsign crankages and mounted plexiglass panels and dummies in the seats BEHIND the plexiglass. Visitors get to walk in one door and walk along a plexiglassed path to another door. Nothing can be touched. No peek inside the cab and of course the issue of what happened to all that which could have at some future date made the car operable.
Now mind ya, it's been ten years. I walked away in disgust myself. Dunno if anything "good" has happened to her since I last saw her, but with historic non-funding of the State Museum over the past ten years, I wouldn't be surprised if she's deteriorated further since. I know what being inside a subway car is and that seems to be the only purpose of the exhibit - "you're standing inside a subway car." Woo-hoo. I would have been more interested in a view of "what's all that stuff underneath that I've never seen upclose" (I'm talking as a potential visitor, I've seen more than my fill of real R9 undercar when I worked for the TA but let's face it - it WOULD be interesting to folks that never had to break off a shoe or change a fuse or drain a compressor tank in their career) or perhaps a peek INSIDE the cab (another thing I've already had a snootful of for real) ... as a railfan experience in a museum, it's an ABSOLUTE DUD.
Thanks for the information on R-9 #1801, Selkirk TMO. It's a crying shame that she's been religated to nothing more than a shell of her former self. I remember her well when I was a Conductor on the Broadway-Jamaica Line. It's also a shame that the last R-9 ever built has not been honored more respectfully. Have a nice holiday.
Happy happy back at ya ... former southern division myself (D line, 1970/71) ... legion of the AMUE handles. :)
Hi SelkirkTMO. I worked all three divisions as both C/R and M/M. I didn't work the "D" line as a road M/M until around 1979. I worked both the Eastern and Southern Divisions as a road C/R and enjoyed alot of R-9 time. Unfortunately, by the time I was road qualified as a M/M, the R-9's had been taken out of passenger service. I was lucky enough to operate a number of four motor R-9's as transfers between East New York and 36th Street Yard. Brother could they move. What other lines and years did you operate as there is a good chance I may know you? Talk to you soon.
I didn't last so long - a long story that I've told many times before in the archives. Basically I got called up late summer of 1970 as a conductor, hit the road in September after taking the promotional (they were mighty short of MM's at the time so I was encouraged to go for it) and got out of schhol car in February of 1971. In April, had a whoopsie on a layup and since I was a probie, hit the street. The whoopsie was the result of a brake failure but I got to eat it. Just as well actually. Was already tiring of the gig.
Spend my entire career on the D train and primarily the R1/9's because I was crazy enough to WANT to run 'em and most of the other guys didn't want to hear about them anymore. :)
When I have a bit more time (I'm at work) I'll rehash some of the same old story but pretty much everybody here has already heard it all (it's a pretty short story actually).
Actually, 1802 was the last R-9. It still survives, intact and possibly operational, at CIY.
Kevin,
I may be late in posting this response, but take any "Qualified"
Motorperson a/o Engineer and put them at the handle of something
they havn't operated previously, it enlightment.
Case in point, good friend of my with 25+ at Metro North, qualified
upto and including "Gennies", put him at the controls of BRRT 4573,
straight air trolley, slow brakes, almost sent me thru the windscreen.
Yes School Car at BERA, is fun. That's why I "Spatch" for School sessions. >G<
:-) Sparky
No such thing as "too late" if supervision doesn't notice. Heh. I *do* have one advantage in that I actually operated 1689's cousins and kin and *know* how those shoes will sneak up on you and reproduce a stop into reinforced concrete at speed. If you don't some serious releasing as it's finally grabbing, YOU'RE going through the windshield too. :)
Although Dougie's car (1227) is classic old "count to five - surprise!" the R1/9's were almost as slow though on a real consist, the electric did help a bit ... but when you had grabbage, it was pretty serious. One of these days I've got to get down there and amuse and entertain. Been 30+ years since the last time I stopped one though. Wonder if it really IS like riding a bike.
Hey Kev, check out the signs. The D train lives!!
Steve,
I'm just catching up on the posts, but GMTA when it came to Kevin and 1689 signed as the "D". As much as I like my "GG" on 1689, I'll bow
to Kevin on this one.
:-) Sparky
Although the A is my favorite route, I still associate the R-1/9s with the D, so it's nice to see 1689 signed up as such. I hope the side signs were set accordingly and backlit. I'm pretty sure I had more R-1/9 rides on the D than on any other IND route, even if it only amounted to maybe a dozen. I rode them more on the Canarsie line than on all IND routes combined.
Say Steve,
We all have our preferences. The 1st subway, that I can remember riding were the R1-9s on the "GG". So I am biased to the signage on
1689.
In streetcars, it would be the 8000s that operated on Nassau Ave. on the Lorimer Street route. [Post WWII]. But my favorite Brooklyn Streetcar is a 6000 single ender, of which non were saved.
Served the Crosstown line [B-61] till 1951 and depoted at its namesake, Crosstown along with ETBs. Building built after WWII, for
servicing 6000s and ETBs, now used by RT for Emergency Response and
the tracks & pit are still there. >G<
:-) Sparky
I couldn't agree more - we all have our own tastes and preferences. You're partial to the GG as I am partial to the D and the A. Nothing wrong with that. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing 1689 signed up as an AA someday. My sign box is set up for an AA right now, as I am commemorating the 35th anniversary of my first AA ride in May of 1967.
Believe it or not, seeing an R-1/9 signed up as an A is actually foreign to me. Back then, of course, the A was almost exclusively R-10s, so naturally I rode on them a lot. I don't think I rode on more than five prewar A trains altogether.
Steve,
"AA" for non peak hours and "BB" for peak. >G<
I am partial to the "GG".
Also I think some R1-9s reappeared on the "A"s to the Rockaways
in the begining, in lieu of the R-16 swap for the newest for
the Peninsula, that couldn't cut it. Some R-10s went to the Eastern
Division of BMT.
:-) Sparky
Yes, that was indeed the case during the late 50s. My subway riding in earnest began in 1967 when we moved to Jersey, and by then the R-16s were back on the Eastern Division (some filled in on the GG during the Jamaica Yard Crisis) and the R-10s were back where they belonged on the A.
As to that crisis, Jamaica Yard was hit with a rash of R-1/9 failures in August of 1966. It got so bad that 20 R-38s that had just been delivered were pressed into service with one trainset on the E and one on the F. Since schedules still couldn't be met, 32 R-16s were borrowed from the Eastern Division and were fitted with GG signs. Finally, a group of condemned BMT standards were yanked off the scrapline and sent back to revenue service with the "S" for "Scrap" still showing beneath the paint covering it.
Steve,
At one time or another, due to the needs, the "GG" rails hosted various R's as required.
If I am correct the last assigments for
the tens were the "CC" & "GG" in their green paint.
Then they finished their service life on the "CC".
I not a died hard subway rider, bring back the streetcars.
But most of my existence on earth has been close to the "GG".
:-) Sparky
Didn't you used to be an L fan (Canarsie Line)?
Hey Karl,
My association & foundness of the 14th Sreet [L] Line is when it was
serviced by the Multi's, the BMT 13 & 16. That's it, other it was
the "GG"
:-) Sparky
Should have read "otherwise"
:-) Sparky
I associate the Canarsie line with the BMT standards. I rode on them during their last two years of service, and to me it was cruel and unusual punishment. I did not like them, period. When the R-7/9s came over, I rejoiced.
I have ridden on the G perhaps four times. Twice on February 10, 1968 due to a service interruption on the Canarsie; once on June 7, 1969; and once on October 28, 1987. The first three rides were on R-1/9s; the last one on R-46s. I do remember the Bedford-Nostrand station the first time I saw it - an island platform station among many stations with side platforms with a third track to boot. I also remember the unused trackway at Classon Ave.
We had a maverick of a train on 6/7/69. The bull and pinion gears got up to F# above middle C between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Fulton St.
And for me it's the PCC Dallas Cars that roamed Hunting Ave in Boston.
Last Sunday I got to operate a double ender at the "Point", and enjoyed it very much.
BY THE WAY ... out of curiosity since it didn't show in Anon's picture that I could make out - was the 205th side of 1689 properly markered-up as green/green for concourse express? I do need to know what to punch for NB at 125th after all. :)
Kevin,
To be genuine, I doubt that many of the current RT aficionados at Branford would have erudition of the marker designations.
BTW do you pay homage at 1801?
:-) Sparky
I still remember the ones from the lines I ran and somewhere around here I have the rest ... Heaven help you if you had that wrong on the railroad in my day. Sure you punched, but most of the towers went by what they saw down the line, especially coming into 125 northbound. If you were green/green, you went to the center, if you were green white or white/white, you went to the local. Wasn't the tower's fault and they could prove it. Heh.
1801? Gotta plead brain damage on the association at the moment ...
Kevin,
It's in your back yard at the Empire State Museum in Smallbany.
>G< Gotcha.
:-) Sparky
OOOPPS, 1801 is in Smallbany. :-) Sparky
The ... remains ... you mean. They wired up its innards for 120 AC, yanked out most of the stuff, it has no trucks, plexiglass inside and many many unauthentic (ahem) "modifications" ... like I said, it'd make you cry ... did it for me.
Kevin,
I know it isn't the best example, but what is left is still alive,
even if modified. Or would you have favored it going back to nature.
It's in the eye of the beholder. Different strokes for different folks!
:-) Sparky
Yeah, I know ... but it's just a carcass as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I should be grateful that it's rotting away indoors. I take the R9's personally though - they're like that old Rambler that you cursed out while you drove it but still get teary-eyed every time you wax nostalgic about it being YOURS. Know whut I meen? :)
That's funny. My father still refers to the '62 Rambler we had as "nondescript". I still remember it, but never dream about it.
Selkirk, I had the same reaction and disappointment when I visited the State Museum a coupla years ago. I actually went because of the R-9. It seemed so unreal, almost like a replica with only half the car open. The hard seats made it seem post-warish. However I must admit the rest of the museum was great, especially the life size walk thru Indian tent. I recommend the museum to everybody but be forewarned: If you're an R1-9 fan, you WILL be disappointed with 1801!!!
Hate to say it, but the Indian Exhibit is pretty much JUST as bogus. It's nice to look at and all but not authentic. Sadly, the prime museum of the State of New York is just another cardboard tourist trap. Pretty and all but it's in the image of the educrat and bears about as much resemblance to reality as Paleontology 101 ...
But yeah, 1801 is a heartbreaker. Don't come up here just to see it. Stop in Kingston instead and go see R4 825. It's in sad shape too but at least it wasn't PHUCKED with ...
Maybe you ran 825 at some point as a motorman.
Probably did ... being an R4, good chance of it. But alas, when you're with the show you don't spot car numbers unless you're writing them up (or logging them in your little notebook so you can show management that you were NOT on that train when you get your carpet call for somebody else's misdeeds). But folks with the show don't have visions of car numbers dancing through their heads when it's sleepytime. If they DO, it's time to see the TA shrink. :)
What did the New York State Museum do to R-9 #1801? I'm unaware it was altered in any way. I'll appreciate any info. Thanks.
From what Kevin has said, they pretty much desecrated it.
Oh ... yeah ... right. Sorry, saw it once and it made me CRY what they did to that. I don't consider it as an R9, I consider it as screwed up garbage. You should SEE what they did to it - it'd make YOU cry too. Sorry, struck that one off the roster. Won't go near it.
I think they did that as "Selkirk bait" and for that I'm grateful. Only wish I had the time and income at the moment to go hang out down there for the summer.
You and me both. Had I not come out to Colorado in 1980 and remained back east, I would have been there each and every weekend.
Now if I was one of the residents of Branford out walking my dog (a lot of them do that on the line) this would be a scary sight !
Thanks for sharing the photos from a completely different prospective, she sure does fill up the opening in the green tunnel !
Mr rt__:^)
Oh Chris, Kevin's going to have to change his BVD's, when he looks at
this one. His R-9 signed up for his route. >G<
:-) Sparky
Actually, I've seen a number of pictures of her signed up for 205th. Someone at Branford must actually like me ... somewhat. :)
Valids for the IND at the time of demise were D, CC, KK, E, some F and of course the GG ... so knowing where they roamed in their final days (yeah, I know they were on eastern division BMT but they were outcasts over there) I'm quite honored that the D line got marked up considering how many other places were still running them too.
Actually if we put up the "F" sign, it would have NYC & locals happy, as our trolley line was part of the "F" line.
Mr rt__:^)
Mr. rt,
What part of our Trolley line was part of the "F" line?
We have trackage from the Church Avenue underpass of Ocean Parkway in
Brooklyn. This was served by the #35 Church Ave. cars with PCCs after
1951 from Ninth Ave. and 6000s from Canarsie till closing. The #69
Vanderbilt~McDonald or the later #50 McDonald served under the Culver
Line. [Oh pardon me, this is just another Mr. rt fallacy]
Also the "D" destined to Coney Island was the first invader of the
BMT south on Culver starting in 1954, till 1967 with Chrystie Street it went to the Brighton.
:-) Sparky
The F line was the original trolley line operating over what is now the Shoreline museum. It was part of the New Haven Division of the Connecticut Company. Service ended in 1947; however, it remained tied into the rest of the system for another year until all trolley service ended in 1948. The first cars acquired by the museum arrived under their own power.
Oh that "F" line...I did not compare the apples with the bananas.
:-) Sparky
So now you get the tie in with the "F" on the R-9, just for the local NIMBYs.
Well, I guess each and every one of us "dates" ourselves and our preferences with the subways - for me it was 1970 and 1971 when I worked there but I was an avid rider since I was a kid in the 50's until I left in the mid 70's ... as to the "Arnines" the F train usually got a good number of the newer rolling stock as it came out to play and I vividly remember the slants, 38's and 4x's as F trains. They did go out of their way to give the F the nicer toys whereas nearly every E train at the time was R9's.
R1/9's on the D were actually very rare though every CC train was universally R4's and 6's usually. They only ran on the D as rush hour put-ins and were rapidly whisked off the line so a solid line of 32's were the D train with some 4x's thrown in to stop the geese from whining about no air conditioned trains EVER ...
So yeah, in my own timeline the Arnines were pretty specific to certain lines whereas they were "bonus" on some others. Sadly I never rode the GG line other than once just to do it and at the time it was running R10's which I was told was unusual.
But when *I* see Arnines, first line that comes to mind is CC of course, then the old E train. Seemed at the time that they LIVED on those two lines but of course the CC was a rush hour job only. I was tickled silly though when I was given the graces of my awful pick to actually operate the R1/9's and so many folks on the crew were only too willing to "let the kid have his toy, I'll fall back." :)
Hey Kevin,
Toward the end the "CC" & the "GG" were where the R-10s were assigned.
It wasn't unusual, dependent on when to find the green R-10s on the "GG". I think the sixteens and the twentysevens paid their dues
on "GG" rails also.
:-) Sparky
Yeah, my lack of knowledge on the historicals was because I lived in the Bronx and reported to Stillwell. Didn't get to see much of Queens except for one diversion to Continental owing to a track fire on CPW. I did the GG once because I hadn't ever rode it somewhere in the late 60's, even did the Culver a few times for the thrill before it was closed. Sure did know my own route pretty well though as well as all the other Bronx lines. However that don't do ya much good here. :)
>>>...I lived in the Bronx and reported to Stillwell...<<<
I gather you weren't "friendly" with the (s)crew office.
Peace,
andee
Heh. Nope. It was one of several things that made me look for another career. The dynamics of the gig were not what I had hoped for and I didn't make a lot of friends down there (that mattered to the Stillwell boys at least) ... but it's a long long story that I've told before here ...
"Yeah, my lack of knowledge on the historicals was because ..."
For me I remember the R-9s & Standards, so with no experience of trolleys in NYC or Lo-Vs, Hi-Vs, D Types, etc. the signage doesn't matter too much.
When I operate at Shoreline those that remember are becoming few & far between. That's why we need to become a museum vs. a ride. There are lots out there who when introduced to one of these with a little history mixed in will come to love them as I have.
Mr rt__:^)
If the cars were to get to a condition where they'd not be able to RUN anymore, that'd be a genuine shame. When I was real small, the LoV's were still running on the mainlines. What a treat it was when I moved over to Norwood (204th St - D train's 205th St area) and got to ride the LoV's and WF LoV's on the third avenue el Bronx section. But yeah, similar thing for me - I *did* get to see trolleys as a kid in the Bronx but didn't know that they weren't busses while they were still running. The single headlight in the middle on the front wasn't enough of a distinguishing characteristic. Thanks, GM for that. :(
And when I think of the R-1/9s, the D always comes to mind first, followed by the AA. Those were the first IND trains I ever rode on.
For me it was the (F) and the (E).
Dad would park his car in Kew Gardens, and take the subway the rest of the way into work.
Elias
I have driven 6688, and yes, the brakes are sensitive. Just ask "HART BUS". He had us all on the floor.
Peace,
ANDEE
Kind of like the power brakes on GM cars of the early 70s, eh? You'd just tap the brake pedal on, say, a '73 Impala and your head would hit the windshield if you weren't wearing your seat belt.
Most of the redbirds had that characteristic. Musta been an amusing wakeup call for folks on the Flushing line running 62A's with conductors saluting the 11 car marker as the train sailed past it as folks got used to lesser brakes.
When the 32's were new, they were also good for geese through the foamer glass when you applied. Then of course came those awful cardboard brake shoes which removed the "fast brakes" ... I'd bet that 6688 still has its steel shoes and that's why ...
Very possible. On top of that 6688 probably still has full field shunting, too.
No more so, like a 1920's Brill Street Car built for the Boston
Elevated. The fatest stopping street car is a Type 5, such as
5821. What's your opinion Todd?
:-) Sparky
Along with some others I was given the privlidge of a little handle time in her at Seashore & don't recall any of us stone walling her on the stops.
Mr rt__:^)
They DO behave a bit better in sets. When I did schoolcar, we did it in singles at first and I was constantly getting pitched. First time out in a 10 car, I was wondering if we had actually stopped.
At Seashore, our Boston Elevated car #4387 has the "tightest" brakes, though the Type-5 (5821) comes close. The "loosest' are the Type -3 snowplows, 5109 and 5159.
Thanks Todd,
You knew what I was refering to about the tighest brakes.
I bow to the one whom has more handle time on the Boston cars.
I haven't had the experience of operating the plows yet.
BTW, my faved car at Seashore, BRT4547, currently not in service,
is unique when it comes to braking. When last operated in Brooklyn
as a salt car, the remaining lines all had loops. Therefore a brake
stand was removed on one end. When restored in the late eighties and
returned to service, as bi-directional, DC had installed a Boston
brake stand in the end it was removed. Prior to Talboot Park Loop,
it was a unique experience operating the "Brooklyn" car on the mainline.
You had Brooklyn soft braking one direction & Boston hard
braking in the opposing direction.
As for Branfords 6688, the braking is not tight, if properly applied.
I've operated 4387 & 5821, that's tight, as well as 6688, if you
don't try and stop on the mark, its soft.
Many unpracticed members will also find the braking on many cars tight at first.
That's what ya git with a well pampered SMEE car....;-D
The R-17 doesn't grab the way the R-9 does, so you can come to a nice smooth stop with the R-17 by just leaving a little air in the brake pipe (just like a trolley), but it takes a little time to get the feel of exactly where to have the brake handle. I need lots more practice on the R-9 < G >
Mr rt__:^)
Boobe ... here's the secret ... the GRAB is part of the design. It's intended to allow you to pull just shy of the conductor boards on a 10 car and MEAN it ... what you do is fan the brakes from lap to release a few times and just as you feel yourself lurch forward as momentum starts to get you, you do a RELEASE. That's why most of us preferred to operate standing up so your body would tell you WHEN. :)
Todd, I'm very happy to hear that Seashore's "A Train" get to heat up their motors. BTW where was Bill P. while you were at the controls ?
Mr t__:^)
Bill was tending the pole.
Then he operated, and I tended.
Will NJT be purchasing any new Diesel Locos?
Nah.... They are going to put the GG1s back in service! : )-
Don't listen to him, there are going to be new locomotives quite similar to the Genesis locomotives made by Alstrom, but made in the US.
NJT is geared toward having the ratio of electric trains to diesel trains of more electric than diesel. Consider the Boonton line electrification project. When the ALP-46's and the new Comet V's are in service, I doubt there will be any room to purchase any diesels. I think NJT has a good set of them already.
According to their site:
The plan calls for the largest rail equipment purchase in NJ TRANSIT’s history during the next five years: 200 single-level rail cars and 33 diesel locomotives by 2002; and 24 electric locomotives by 2003.
What will happen to NJT's old locomotives? Will the 33 be added onto its operating roster?
I would presume that most of the new ones will be replacements. The diesels that I see coming up from Bay Head on the NJCL are all very old and very tired - many were inherited by NJT from predecessor roads.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When the New Cars take off, do they take off slowly, like the LIRR and Amtrak Cars? And How smooth and comfortable are the new Cars? I haven't got the chance to experience these cars myself.
When they were new, the took off quite slow and then after it cleared about 15 MPH, it sped up quickly and strongly. Some speeds modifications were done and I haven't been hanging around them enough to be sure.
I'm no expert on this; but it appears that these new trains can reach 45 mph quicker than the older subway cars. Most (but not all) of the new trains ride relatively smoothly and in my opinion, are about as comfortable as every other train out there.
> about as comfortable as every other train out there
Although, of course, they would be even more comfortable if they had forward-facing seats!
- Lyle Goldman
The R142 can't go more than 40 :-(
Who are you kidding, I've seen the speed thing through tiny door cracks go to like 45-46 on a rerouted 2 express from 72-42 stretch...
I heard it couldn't go more than 40 due to some sort of modification. Did they change that?
I am still a Redbird fan, nothing beats the birds on that section of 7th Avenue although I have yet to ride the R142 on the express there.
Modifications, schmodifications. Cable companies "cap" your cable modem line so you can't download in my case over 250k/s. I end up going 252 at times.
But 46 MPH isn't just going over 40 in my book. Also, there are no significant grades on that section of track anyway.
Do you mean the cable internet line? I have Time Warner NYC and I've hit 300+ kbps on downloads (using multiple connections via Download Accelerator, of course).
Dan
I have Optimum Online in NY-occupied Brooklyn and get up to 500 KB (capitalization matters) regularly.
Yeah the 142's are pretty fast, had one one the 5 for a really fast Lex express ride.
They do seem to accelerate quite smoothly without the "jerkiness" of older DC traction, but they accelerate quicker than LIRR cars, even though LIRR does have higher top speed.
Rev. 7 software on R142s was set to provide an easy non-jerking start and acceleration because of customer complaints. Braking is another matter: while trying to 'sleep' coming back from official business (we can't drive our cars on duty,) my butt would slide down the seat every time the brakes were applied. One defect you may note in travel is a 'bunka-bunka' noise and feeling in the fixed couplings...shear bolts are failing (like in the R62s.) CI Peter
That noise actually comes from the wheels on the new Tech Trains, which means the wheels are slipping on the rails from too much power and the train is trying to correct itself!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
The 142s are VERY smooth. I can stand without having to hold onto a pole. :-)
They need to upgrade the A/C units on the R-44's! The A/C was terrible on the A Line on 5/16, It was hot and that awful smell from that homeless person. DAMN!
That sounds like it might have been a defect in one particular car, unless that homeless person followed "AcelaExpress2005" into every R-44 car he (she?) rode that day.
David
At this hour, the weather-delayed work of replacing the CTA Brown Line elevated structure across Wacker Drive is underway. Service was suspedend for the weekend at 10:00 PM CST, the existing elevated structure is being cut up and removed, and the new 111 foot long span, currently sitting beside its final resting place, will be rolled into place and attached to the previously installed foundation footings. The entire operation is expected to take about 50 hours, and will be done well in time for the resumption of normal service by Monday morning's rush hour.
Article in Chicago Tribune
-- Ed Sachs
Photo in Monday's paper
-- Ed Sachs
Dear Ed:
I traveled over the 'new' span this morning and this afternoon.
I took a Ravenswood (Brown) Line train to the Merchandise Mart (end of service for the weekend) yesterday (Sunday) at about 1 PM from Wellington to the Mart. The 'new' span was already in place. I went downstairs to where the waiting Brown Line Shuttle buses were waiting. I hoped on a Nova bus, almost new I think, but I didn't get the number. It dropped me off at LaSalle and Lake. I walked over the the 'L' entrance on the North side of Lake. I rode the 'round the Loop' train using the 'outer' track. The signal indication for the train to turn from going EAST on Lake to SOUTH on Wells was RED over LUNAR. We made all the 'Brown Line' stops, but I hoped off at Library to catch a #6 Jeffrey bus to see a friend in Hyde Park.
The CTA was using the X-over just north of the curve north of the Mart. The train I was on (Run #405) stopped short of the X-over, and a flagman got on, with the 'Green' flag. We then proceeded into the 'southbound berth' at the Mart. There was two four-car trains layed up on the 'northbound berth'. One was the Historical Society Ravenswood train, and the other looked like a 'protect' train.
Hats off to the crew that did the job in 50 hours (or less).
The intersection at Wacker & Wells doesn't have support columns in the street since Wacker Drive was first built, circa - I don't know.
I believe that when the L was built there, it was before Wacker Drive was built. Wacker Drive replaced South Water Street and a row of warehouses between the street and the river. I imagine that the columns in the middle of Wacker Drive were at the edge of South Water St, which was considerably narrower.
-- Ed Sachs
When I rode a train of R-68s on the "Q" to Coney Island on March 24, 2002 I boarded car #2802 and that all too familiar noise common to the R-68s was quite prominent with this particular car. The noise was so annoying that I had to wear the hood that I use in cooler weather to help keep my minor cleft palate from bothering me, to help reduce the assault to the ears from the noise emanating from the loudspeakers instead. If I didn't use my hood, the noise would have made me go bananas. When I left Coney Island I boarded an R-68A on the "Q" and rode in car #5130. What a world of difference, there was no annoying noise at all and, the train of R-68As moved faster than the R-68s. Is there anything that the T/A can do to eliminate the noise on the R-68s? If so why don't they do it. This noise can drive some people up the wall.
#3 West End Jeff
You didn't describe the noise.....
was it a scratchy whine of a moderate tone that went away when
the PA announcement came on?
Jeff old buddy ... I've caught it too ... what it is is screeching bearings on the axles ... obviously "dry" for reasons only Coney Island Shop can explain. For what it's worth, I rode a number of Train Dude's baby carriages and never heard it - same for other CIY cars. For some reason, some trucks get into screeching ...
The pitch increases with speed, gets better or worse with side to side motions by the cars as they roll and it MOST loud where it occurs. It varies though and that tells me "dry bearings" ... but then, what do I know about cars? Heh.
Jeff: "...to help reduce the assault to the ears from the noise emanating from the loudspeakers instead."
Selkirk: "...what it is is screeching bearings on the axles..."
Let me get this straight... screeching bearings on the axels cause the speakers to make noise?
Nope ... "ground loops" from poorly wired cars have nothing to do with bearing noises ... that's what I caught although I DID hear some weird noises on a northbound trip on CPW from one of Train Dude's cars but it went away as soon as we got north of 145th ...
Apples, oranges, have a nice day. Moo. :)
You are probably right that the noise in the R-68s must be coming from the "ground loops". There is no way that it could be coming from the truck bearing, otherwise you would hear it only when the train is moving. This noise you hear all of the time and it comes through the loudspeakers.
#3 West End Jeff
Yep ... that's ANOTHER issue entirely. I *did* hear it on one car. Strange how others don't have the problem. It was really noticeable on CPW northbound and went away when the train left 145th to da Bronx. But noise on the PA is always the result of "ground loops" in the PA wiring ... dunno why CPW brought it out in spades and it went away. Maybe better track grounding elsewhere ... but it's a PA problem. Noise shouldn't be getting into the amplifiers if the wiring is properly grounded and stray voltage is kept out of the input loop of the amplifiers ... audio 101 ...
I also hear that noise one some R40s. Anyone else hear it too?
Yes. But on the R40, you only hear it when a truck gets cut off from power such as a gap in the third rail. And it starts fading away when it's back in contact.
I've might have heard the noise on the R-40s, but I can't be sure since I haven't ridden them in a while.
#3 West End Jeff
It is true that a section of track could cause interference on the PA.
For example, when I have a put-in from Jamaica Yard to Parsons or 179, I have to go up 10 track to reach the mainline. While on 10 track, the PA starts whining like crazy, no matter if it's a R32 or an R46. Once I enter the mainline, the squeal goes away. Same thing with R68's on the Sea Beach and Brighton lines. I've just never known what could be causing this, I always assumed that it was a 3rd rail thing.
R62s are also prone to this, especially by 72 St/B'way northbound.
Sometimes I get static through my headphones in certain parts of the subway system, usually near signal rooms or substations. This is while listening to a tape or even when nothing is on at all.
Must be some type of electromagnetic interference. Also I remember hearing how all the juice going through Penn station messed up the TV monitors colors.
Nope ... improper grounding on the input side to the electronics. It could probably be retrofitted with an audio transformer that would break the ground loop, allowing the audio through and stopping the noise. A "ground loop" can often result in oscillation and it sound like that's what's going on. Wiring up radio studios in the face of strong electrical fields is the basis by which I make this suggestion, I've been there before and compared to radio and TV transmitters, a piddly third rail is a minor pain by comparison. It could be solved and relatively cheaply ...
the noise from the truck sounds like:
arrrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuuuuuuiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
as it starts up
Selkirk,
Cars today have sealed roller bearings. If the bearing is making
noise, then the lube has gotten fouled or there is a serious
defect. SMEE trucks do not have side bearings like R-9 trucks.
The PA noise has been discussed before. I just wanted to clarify
that the symptoms were the same. I've observed it on the Jamaica
R-32 fleet. The noise is most intense when the train is taking
power. "David" on this board tells me the TA still can't figure
out the problem. Too bad I don't work for TA engineering anymore.
I know how to fix it pretty cheaply using 1 spare trainline.
Yeah, the noise was DEFINITELY coming from the bearings (having worked the railroad years ago, I can tell right where they would be from inside a car) since the frequency of the noise varied with speed and the intensity of it varied with side to side motion of the truck. As to how many cars have this problem, I have no idea. But the one I was on that one day in the city was definitely an unhappy car and I was told there's others with the same problem.
If there isn't DC carried on the audio trainline wire (it'd be REAL dumbassed if there is DC there) then a simple lashup of a 600 ohm transformer would break the loop and kill the audio assuming that PA audio is more than one volt in amplitude on that line. If it's 70.7 volts as is done in many "real" PA systems, definitely no excuse. In all sincerity, I'd need to see a schematic but I'll bet the problem can be easily solved by any of us old timey radio broadcast engineer types. :)
Actually, there is DC on the trainline. The audio signal is
capacitively coupled on top of the L1 lighting control trainline,
at least in the original design. Train Dude could comment on
what portion of the fleet still retains that. However, that's
only part of the problem. The noise that I hear sounds to my
untrained ear (where's SteveB or WayneR40?) to be the 360 Hz
rectification (rectification is good, baby, heh he heh)
ripple which is present on the 600V traction power. As long as there
is a mic talking on the line, the signal is strong enough to
overwhelm that ripple. The defect seems to be that the PA Control
relays are coming in when they shouldn't. This could be due to
a DC ground imbalance condition as there is very little noise
margin on that circuit with the older design (0 volts= no PA,
no HVAC, 24 volts=HVAC only, 36 volts=HVAC+PA). Since everything
is referenced to chassis ground, while traction power is being
drawn, it doesn't take much in the way of a bad return to
cause a few volts imbalance across the length of the train.
Geez ... if that's the case, then there's not much room for a cure. Some capacitors would take care of the 360 Hz ripple, but would also ground out the audio. Trilevel logic for the controls also sounds like excessive optimism on the designer's part as well. I was expecting unbalanced audio on a dedicated wire with perhaps amplifier DC power on it also. In such a situation, you COULD use a transformer to pick off the audio and still have the DC on there with a capacitor to block the DC from the transformer windings. I realize there ain't a lot of wires on the electric section so options are limited.
Now imagine all the fun of having a computer LAN using such an arrangement trainline. Yipe! :)
Now imagine all the fun of having a computer LAN using such an arrangement trainline. Yipe! :)
Presumably the "new tech" trainsets use a PAIR of pins for
each lan bus and run twisted pair or coax on each car. Digital
signals are actually much easier to work around noise especially
if one applies sophisticated error recovery schemes. Look how
much performance a modern modem squeezes out of that noisy
analog phone line!
Actually modems and RF links do rather POORLY in noise when they're digital ... same for LANs ... if things are QUIET, an analog signal can still be reconstructed with a phase lock loop WAY into the dirt whereas once impairment reaches a certain threshhold, digital works to a point and then has a narrow edge of trash after which it goes away entirely. Anyone with a satellite dish can describe the experience. It works, then it starts taking hits and then pooferoo ... gone.
But if they're doing it on the trains with a pair, then it would mean that they're doing some form of (analog) signal processing. But in my years, I've seen digital collapse long before analog would. It's all a matter of where that threshhold is and where the noise levels are in relation to it ...
What I meant there was that with PLL's and signal processing, analog will do a LOT better in noise than digital will. Somehow I phrased the last one in such a way that it seemed as though I was fighting my own argument. Sleepy time. :)
Anyhoo, if the PA noise is *so* loud that it can be heard in speakers driven from a "line level input" then chances are quite good that level of noise will trash digital signals on the trainlines as well. I'd be quite curious to see how reliable it turns out in the real world though ... it'd make me nervous on a theoretical basis.
Exactly why I continue to record on the cassette tape. The analog method is easy to use, provides natural sound quality, and will not be ruined if there is a momentary power loss (where I live, that happens alot).
360 Hz equates to E above middle C or thereabouts, or about what those R-1/9 AA trains got up to between 59th and 72nd on those two Sundays in May of 1967.
I haven't ridden on too many R-68 consists lately, so I can't comment on the noise you guys are referring to.
Even the 68A's have that noise too! Well, not as bad as the R68's. Although everytime I ride them on the Q or on any line, I am used to it, so it does not bother me.
I haven't had the noise on the R-68As so far, but you never know.
#3 West End Jeff
Sometimes it drowns out the panhandlers :)
--Mark
...and sometimes it drowns out the annoying people who bitch about the annoying noise. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Just like the little kids on the R-142's parrotting the annoying announcements sometimes drown out the announcements themselves.
That is SO annoying! I was goin from Canal to Pelham and since 96th, the people across from me were doing the "next stop is" (not to mention getting half of them wrong while looking at the strip) and the door chime. The saddest part is that they were ~17.
I had it on Sunday from 125th to PBP. But it was coming from the mouth of a cute four-year-old, so I didn't mind much. He also got a lot of the stations wrong, but he wasn't looking at the strip map.
In the 70's, the TA embarked on a program to make all stations look alike. Fortunately, that never made it beyond the BMT, and it's being corrected now. A few years ago, the TA embarked on a program to make all trains look and sound alike. I hope somebody sees the error before this goes too far.
I promise not to do that anymore :)
--Mark
I heard that whining noise on an R68 Circle Q I rode today. It is irritating. It sounds like it's struggling to move and it is. That Hippo ride made me feel sick (sorry I just can't help it, I'm not a fan of the Hippos).
Also just to add, it seems only the CI R68's (the ones that run on the N and circle Q) make the annoying whining noise while moving, the Concourse ones (on the B and D) seem to operate better and don't make that noise.
>>>... the Concourse ones (on the B and D) seem to operate better and don't make that noise.<<<
Oh yes they do.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't remember saying anything about the PA whine, but I say so many things...
David
All of the cars using the Comco PA equipment have that noise to some extent. The noise varies by location to the extent that some lines have almost no problem and other lines have it extensively. The noise seems to be more prevalent on the 4 and 5-car links than on the single cars or married pairs. The problem is under investigation and several modified units are undergoing testing on several cars.
R40 slants have that same loud whine too. What causes the R68s and R40s to make that noise?
There have been some posts pointing the blame to a certain wire that is improperly grounded thereby creating the ANNOYING noise.
#3 West End Jeff
Well, for my own comments on the matter I'd REALLY have to see a schematic. I'm GUESSING that the audio on the trainline is at line level and there's amplifiers in each car picking up that signal input and amplifying it into the speakers in each car locally. I *doubt* that they're sending "speaker level" signals down the trainline. But it isn't the wire that I'm blaming, it's the input to the amplifiers that doesn't seem able to reject "common mode noise" and there's ways around that - the crudest method of which would emply audio transformers. The more sophisticated solution would be using Digital signal processing chips to null the noise on a predictive basis.
How the TA deals with it though is anybody's guess and my own guesses are invalid without seeing a schematic to see how it's "as built."
It would be interesting where the signal is coming from that prodices that ANNOYING noise on the R-68s.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm not sure if such things exist on the internet, but I'd be interested at looking at maps for railroad tracks. If not, I have a question...
there's a railroad bridge in astoria that crosses over the Ditmars N train station, which seems to go west, since it's perpendicular, but somehow goes North and up toward New Haven. Can anyone explain where/how it makes this turn?
Responses are much appreciated. This question has been nagging me for days now.
You don't really need a track map for that. You only need a regular street map. Even the NYC Subway map does a pretty good job. Basically, it goes roughly along the Triborough Bridge, then goes up through the Bronx, then to Westchester County where it joins the Metro North New Haven Line, and finally along the New England Throughway and Connecticut Turnpike to New Haven and points beyond.
- Lyle Goldman
Ok, thanks. I didn't have a physical subway map in front of me, and the online version doesn't show RR trackage.
Except the map only does the approximate location of the line, not its actual location. It starts in the Sunnyside Yard in the right place more or less but it crosses Queens Boulevard at the Northern Blvd. Station which you can see from the Amtrak train if you are on the left side when heading towards Boston (I think it crosses closer to Steinway on the map) and then crosses over the Ditmars Boulevard Station (it is closer to Astoria on the map). In the Bronx, it passes the 6 near Whitlock Avenue if I recall correctly, but it is harder to see the 6 because it passes over the Amtrak line. It is easier to find the G/R/V and N stations since they are below the Amtrak train.
Hells Gate Bridge is your key word search.
In answer to the question about where it turns from west to north, it does that on Ward's Island, just parallel and northeast of the Queens leg of the Triboro Bridge, which makes the same curve.
Well this will be an interesting weekend on the IRT.
No.1 Line: 242 Street to Chambers. Crews out of New Lots reassigned to the No.4 Line.
No.2 Line: Uptown runs on the Lexington Ave line Nevins to 149-GC.
No.3 Line: NO SERVICE and ALL train crews must call the crew office for there job. Yes if you have a picked No.3 Line job you are Extra this weekend.
No.5 Line: Runs from Dyre Ave to Times Square 7 Ave Express all weekend around the clock from 7AM Saturday to 5AM Monday.
Let the games begin!!!!!!!!
I'm ready to visit the Westside again since I left the No.1 Line. Since I'm on the No.5 all weekend I will be seeing a lot of Westside.
No.1 Line: 242 Street to Chambers. Crews out of New Lots reassigned to the No.4 Line.
If the 1 terminates at Chambers, (which I have noticed), then where do the trains from New Lots come from?
I rode the #1 from Bergen St. to 34 St on Wednesday. and the #1 and #2 line service change already started last Wednesday.
The trains to New Lots come from Woodlawn via Lex Express
No, I mean the train FROM New Lots. On Wednesday around 12:10a, I heard a #1 train pull its emergency brake at Chambers St. I was on a #1 UPTOWN there, and it came from New Lots. Where did this train come from?
That was 11:30pm Nlts to VC, which is the BTW, the last #1 train to leave Bklyn.
That was my old intervel 2 picks ago. Do you know what it feels like to be the last crew to do 2 trips to New Nots and being on the last train and the crews who sign in after you go home before you.
Dave, that's what "paying dues" is all about. EVERYBODY down here has had at least one pick "from hell".
I've had 2. One when I was working 5 OPTO trips on the G between Court Sq and 4th Av every Sat/Sun, and one two picks ago when I picked AM extra and the Crew Office treated me like a used dishrag.
In past versions of this GO, 3 trains ran local, filling in for the missing NB 2 local service north of 14th.
This time there is no 3. So shouldn't the NB 5 run local? (Trains are turning at Chambers, so 1 service can't be increased -- if anything, it may have been decreased.) With both the 1 and 2, locals fill up like mad on Sunday evenings. I have a feeling 72nd won't be a pleasant sight.
As well, the official notice posted at 2/3 stations (that includes local stations, last I checked) directs 2 passengers bound for Lenox or the Bronx to use the 5. If the 5 is running local, shouldn't it direct them to take the 1 to the 5?
If you thought THAT was bad, you should have seen some of the nonsense they were passing off as BMT service to-day:
1) ABSOLUTELY NOTHING through Montague-Tube.
2) Again, absolutely NOTHING between De Kalb Avenue and Prospect Park, on the Brighton Line.
End result?
"R" service terminating at Canal (with the attendant mass confusion and angry passengers trying to cram through the narrow passageways); and shuttling between 59th and 95th.
"N" service being shunted over the Bridge.
Absolutely NO "W" service at all.
"Q" service in two installments, one of which substituted for the "W" via West End (running, much to my delight, about 60% Slants from the weekday Diamond "Q" service) and the other that ran as a backwards shuttle between CI and Prospect Park, with the lead motors marked "S" with a yellow bullet!
One more thing: Eastern Division only has 32 slants left. Unit numbers up to and including 4414-4415 are back in CI. I would guess for every R143 that enters service, a set of 8 slants goes back to CI.
wayne
wayne
""R" service terminating at Canal (with the attendant mass confusion and angry passengers trying to cram through the narrow passageways); and shuttling between 59th and 95th.
"N" service being shunted over the Bridge.
Absolutely NO "W" service at all.
"Q" service in two installments, one of which substituted for the "W" via West End (running, much to my delight, about 60% Slants from the weekday Diamond "Q" service) and the other that ran as a backwards shuttle between CI and Prospect Park, with the lead motors marked "S" with a yellow bullet!"
Makes one wonder why they didn't combine the Continental - Canal (R) with the 57th - West End - Stillwell (Q). That would've been interesting...
I wonder if Fred saw that "N service being shunted over the bridge" part. It would be a small consolation or perhaps a moral victory for the N.
The northbound N ran normal, via tunnel.
I daresay the IRT GO causes greater inconvenience. There is no access to the West Side IRT from Brooklyn. Stops between Park Place and Clark have only southbound service (and backtracking isn't possible, since all NB trains are running via the East Side). And 1 service, which makes up more than half of the trains on the West Side, ends at Chambers, jamming up through service there. You got off an A train at Park Place to take a 1 or 2 uptown? Good luck getting there! Probably your best bet at that point is to get back on an A or C, go one more stop to Broadway-Nassau, take an uptown 2, 4, or 5 (all via Lex) to 14th, and cross on one of the BMT lines. Let's see an average, non-railfan IRT rider figure that one out on the fly!
My 1 train terminated at 14st where the 3 would yesterday. I'll take another ride today, and see what happens.
Yes there was a GO where No.1 trains made there last stop 14 Street. The GO ended 9PM last night.
I'll be on the No.5 line going to Times Square.
Yes, mine did the same this evening. I assume some 1's were continuing to Chambers. The last time this GO was on, all 1's turned at Chambers, and they had to use both tracks, impeding through 2 service. I didn't make it down to Chambers but I guess the idea was to try to confine 1's to the local track, with the trains that wouldn't fit there turning at 14th.
I assume this is why 3 service was suspended.
This led to the unusual situation at 14th of northbound locals stopping on the SB express track, on the NB express track, and even on the NB local track (I wouldn't have believed it, since all trains were supposed to run express from Chambers to 14th, but I saw a train there with my own eyes).
1. the #1 trains should be terminating at Chambers track 1.(SB local). There were signs posted from Canal to Christopher earlier stating that uptown trains will run express from Chambers to 14Sts. I will check this out later on today. Unless there are the usual "every two-three for every one 2 train weekend madness."
2. There are no 5 trains running on the Lex. All 5 trains are running from Dyre Ave to Times Square. Go ahead and get your Redbird express runs.
3. Also for Bklyn pax, I believe we got to tell them to use Atlantic Ave for the N and Q, 14St for the N,Q,R, and GC for the GCS.(No #7 service out of Manhattan this weekend.)
Like I said, Ill see how it go down today.
Its MADNESS!!! Trust me I did it yesterday. The No.5 line is running 12 to 15 Minutes headways as well.
Mike---
The 1s, were making local stops between Franklin and Christopher last night, so those trains had to be turning on the S/B Express Track. I'd assume if they wanted to get the train out ASAP, they would have dropped back one crew, and have another come aboard for the trip north.
-Stef
What time was this? It must have been when headway were much larger to accomodate them to switch on the SB xpress track.
About 9:30 Last Night.
-Stef
All is as you report, except that some 1's were turning at 14th.
I still don't know why the NB 5 was running express. It was there specifically to fill in for the 2. The 2 runs local. Thus the 5 should have run local. My NB 1 C/R this evening had to make announcements at each local stop to try to convince people to get on her train and not to wait for a 2.
I overheard someone on a SB 5-bird wondering why the train wasn't running to 14th as it usually does. She must have thought it was a 3, even though the 3 hasn't run anything but R-62A's for 15 years or so.
I had those questions all day. Why are you not going to 14 Street?? Because this is a No.5 train to Times Square wait for the No.1,2 Trains.
I did have alittle fun with this GO I got see some of my friends on the No.1 Line.
Also tonight there was a Fight on my train in the first car at Times Square on the Uptown side so we left 4 Minute late.
That was your train!!! We oulled into TS around that time it happened. Did it move across the platform?
The fight went on to the Platform and then on a No.1 train and back on to the platform back on my train then to the Platfrom. This guy lifted this ladys wallet and they guy ran on my train and the lady followed him. Now the lady told my T/O this and 4 other woman came to her aid. They asked him to give her money back he refused and all 5 woman starting beating the guy up. The platfrom C/R and TSS held the guy from police.
I'd like to thank you for posting this. It made me look like a bleeding genius at Prospect Park on Sunday, knowing that there were no 1 trains at Franklin and that the NB 2s were running up Lex. Now if only there was an easy way to get them to understand "Last Stop!" Almost every conversation with customers started like this -
Cust - "What do you mean, last stop? What do i do now?"
Me - "Where do you want to go? Tell me and I can help you."
Cust - "Manhattan!"
Things went downhill from there. It's amazing how many people have absolutely NO IDEA where they are going. After about the 300th go-round of this, one woman yelled at me for raising my voice at the last person I had been talking to, and then promptly went and asked the same question -"How do I get to Manhattan?" So I told her to take the Franklin Shuttle one stop and transfer for the 4 train. Take the 4 train four stops and get off. Then walked away to get on my train.
I know how you feel,i was at Coney Island yesterday at the W platform where regular Q service from Manhattan was terminating.there was this guy who looked confused as hell.i asked him where'd he wanna go and he said Ave.U I told him to follow me so i can walk him to the regular Q platform so he can take the shuttle and he just stood there with a 2 Q's having left i told him to go to the other platform and he didnt listen,i finally gave up,made my way to Nathan's and when i got aboard an F train and looked at the platform and he wasnt there. either he finally understood someone else or he left stupidfied wondering "which way do i go? duh which way do i go?"
Just to let you guys know as of last week there are now 5 sets of SILVER 7s.
Ok.....And this is not to be expected?
4 r10s
3 r9's
2 bluuue birds
AND A PARTRIGE IN A PEAR TREE!!!!!!!!!
(im sorry, it was toooo tempting))
lol
Touche!
Yeah!!! Two sets were running today and I got to operate both of them. All cars except for 2129 had purple Corona stickers.
So you get to drive them! Great, though why aren't all the yard stickers all purple yet? Do you have a shortage? ;)
The word of AE weekend service cutback got me thinking about Amtrak's future...is this company still in danger of being "dismanteled," meaning some other company takes over? Or will the gov't finally fund it more? -Nick
What future?
It's dead. It's just not officially dead yet.
Though Gunn's the only one i could see turning it around, I have my doubts even he can do it, and frankly, I have my doubts congress will even fun Amtrak anymore.
They were supposedly to be operationally self sufficient this year, they fell way short. This was a deal they made the LAST time congress bailed them out.
At this point, the question Congress seems to be asking is 'Why bother funding a failed system", and there's really no good answer to that.
Another thing this *might* help bring to light is the FRA's insane regulations and regulatory attitude, which is not only totally out of step with the rest of the world, but hardly successful and a big drag on passenger rail in the US.
Interestingly, I read somewhere the NTSB is *finally* going to look into the Suplerliner's tendancy to flip in even slight derailments. It's about time. My wild assed guess is they'll find the COG of the cars to be significantly different (i.e., higher), than most other cars out there.
>>Why bother funding a failed system"<<
I am sure at least one NYC pol said the same about the IRT, the BMT, and Fifth Ave Coah Lines at one time or another. Defending ATK management not me, but demanding a functional national rail passenger system you bet.
AS to Superliner problems, I suggest a study of whose tracks they flip on. Remember when the SDPF40's were derailing regularly at high speeds BUT only on some RR's while others had no incidents? Clue--Santa Fe no problems even at 79+--CS/SCL trouble over 60.
See the FRA website for their early 2000 track defects report on CSX--INCLUDING trackage which had supposedly been recently spruced up for the Conrail split. BTW, FWIW I believe Superliners were thoroughly field tested at the Pueblo facility before entering revenue service.
The Superliners were designed by Pullman in the mid-70's. Pueblo didn't exist back then. Railcars tipping over is not a problem. It is the car ripping over, compressing or bending that really kills people.
Thats interesting about SDP40F only derailing on certain properties. I always thought the problem was the one with the locomotive's water tanks being in the wrong place and the water sloshing around threw the locomotive off balance on turnouts. When someone first told me about the SDP40F issue I also thought it was track, but then since it doesn't happen to the F40s I assume it is loco, and now you got me suspicious again...
For my part, it doesn't really surprise me that Superliners flip more than Amfleets etc but AFAIK they are also limited to lower speeds for that reason -- Amfleets are authorized up to 125mph whilst Superliners are 90mph animals. As for the Seaboard line turning more cars over, it may simply be due to the curvature on the line (ATSF had lines that were wayyyy straighter than anything in the East -- esp when compared to the L&N!)
Alicia
while in general you may be correct about some CSX former SCL routes and especially the L&N and CRR lines, I believe he original SAL includes some of the longest tangent track east of the Mississippi.
At the time of the SDP40F fiasco, there was quite a lot of chatter within railfan circles because the RR's blamed the trucks--which were the same as on freight engines they were runnng. Go figure.
At the end of their lives some of the SDP40F's were bought by Santa Fe and ran several more years before being scrapped. In response to JM's post I have sent a query to the AAR Pueblo test folks as to whether they ever did any work on the Superliners.. It is clear that some further research will be done in the Auto Train wreck report when NTSB finishes investigating. I will post here when it is released.
Go to www.trains.com and sign up to read railroading news across North America.
There is a batch of articles regarding AMTRAK in the three links of current news, and a lot more when you search through the old news archives.
The latest news is that Amtrak and Pennsylvania are planning on a $140 million budget to enhance its Keystone service, mainly to have an entirely electrified line to Harrisburg. This will extend the 110-mph stretch and will cut travel times back to 90 minutes.
But then again, I a news article in May (I think) titles "AMTRAK may run out of cash this year," and another on "AMTRAK will slice all long-distance trains if there is a lack of funding." In the middle of this quagmire, AMTRAK's Warrington (I forgot which position he held) has switched to managing NJ TRANSIT (is he now the executive director?) and leaves Gunn to do his job of trying to save the company, as he has saved NYC Transit and one other rail co. during his career.
When is the due date when the complete order of LIRR M-7's be in New York?
-AcelaExpress2005
Ok, if Robert Moses didnt exist we would defintly have a highway system quite differently from the one that we have today. Espcially the Cross Bronx Expressway, which did Robert Moses in. (He was a fool for doing that) Also the IND Second System would have more then likely been built since the fundings would have been there.
Now is there a chance that maybe the city can correct the errors made by Robert Moses, the "anti-city" and the highways system. Like taking a cord and straightning it out?
So if Robert Moses didn't exist what do you think the city would look like today??
Well....It's hard to since Moses was alive! Though, if we think about it, it can't really be determined if the highway system Moses built was needed at the time or if it created the congestion seen today. That was something Moses was to shortsighted to see.
If Moses wasn't there then, the IND second system proably would have been built and maybe the expansions planned for the rest of the system would have gone on too.
Is there of reviving these plans? Not as likely, IMO. The MTA has enough things to worry about, including:
-2nd Avenue Subway
-Upgrading the entire current system to modern times
-A tight budget
-If NYC ever sees the Olympics in 2012, the necessary expansions. The 7 and L already have their preliminary plans set.
I'm notbeing pessimistic about this, though it may be a very long time before the IND second system is considered again. Unfortunately, this means delays and congestion for Queens commuters for decades to come. :(
If Moses wasn't there then, the IND second system proably would have been built and maybe the expansions planned for the rest of the system would have gone on too.
Moses didn't make much of a difference as far as the Second System was concerned. Blame the Great Depression, then World War II.
Yes...I remember those factors now, but didn't Moses being anti-transit in a hand in that, also?
re Great Depression and WWII killing off Second System
Yes...I remember those factors now, but didn't Moses being anti-transit in a hand in that, also?
It no doubt was a contributing factor. Even so, I suspect that nothing much could have gotten the Second System built, what with historical events.
And frankly once the city took over the IRT and BMT - it simply lost interest in the Second System. The IND was designed with one thing in mind - Destroy the BMT and IRT - once that was accomplished there was no reason to expand.
> The 7 and L already have their preliminary plans set.
And where can we find these plans? Are they on MTA's official website?
- Lyle Goldman
Yes, go to the Planning Studies section.
"The 7 and L already have their preliminary plans set."
The extension of the 7 is being pushed by Bloomberg. But what even halfway serious talk is there of extension of the L? Message board and out-of-the-blue New Jersey fantasies don't count as plans.
Well, there would be no Throggs Neck or Verazano Bridges, The GCP would not have been built, nor the Norther or Souther State Parkways.
That would have slowed the push to Long Island, though not by that much. Commuting would have been almostexclusively by LIRR and there would be more dense housing in easter Queens, with subawy lines extended easterly more than they do now.
OTH: What if Moses were pro-transit, and used hsi NIMBY SMASHER to expand transit properly!
Elais
If he was pro transit and a NIMBY smasher!! OMG! This city's transit system would be HUGE! IND Second System, the IRT would be B division size, the BMT second system. God so many lines, GOD! I would have loved that, cause there would be little demolition.
More to the point, NIMBYs had no power or cohesiveness in Moses' day.
I remember there were some houses, new tract houses built where he wanted to build an off-ramp for the SSP...
Eminent-Domain: heres a few bucks,... go buy a house over there... and in came the bull-dozers.
And the NIMBYs (geese in those days) would bob their heads... Oh Thank You Mr. Moses,,,, thank-you thank-you!
Now you can't even raise a goose in your yard without a NIMBY hauling your ass off to court for 60 years.
VETO by Delay! one of the oldes and most effective tactics in the book.
Even out here... New power lines cannot be built across empty farmland... the cows might glow in the dark or something!
HUMPH
It's too bad that those NIMBY's are so dense and don't realize the amzing PROS building new subway lines would have on their communities. Then, they're caught b!tching about the congestion and delays in the system! ROTFLMAO!!!
If only Moses was here today, with a pro-transit attitude! he would whip those NIMBY's into shape!
Northern Nassau county is the king of NIMBY. We have very poor LIRR access, few commercial developments, and roads that need widening, BADLY. Anybody who sits in traffic on Northern Blvd or Greenvale knows what I mean.
If somebody could whip the NIMBY's into shape he'd get my vote.
For Northern Nassau county I'd like to see
-Electrification of the Oyster Bay branch, it is way overdue
-Widenining of major intersections on Northern Blvd, elimination of some, and better traffic light timing
-Dedicated right lanes for buses only, no cars, so buses can make better time
-Commercial development, improved utility stores like supermarkets and drugstores
You keep on knocking NIMBYS. NIMBY means not in my back yard. As a homeowner, if any type of construction threatens my property values or my family's quality of life I will fight tooth and nail against it. That doesn't make me a bad person.
John, admit it. Cars will always be the way of life for Long Island. Millions have been spent on the HOV lanes on the LIE and there is no real negligible increase in carpooling.
["Electrification of the Oyster Bay branch, it is way overdue"]
I don't see how electrification of the OB Branch can help in any way. Right now they have the most modern trains on the LIRR. A one seat ride? I doubt it. There are several electric branches that don't regularly go to Penn such as Far Rockaway. An electric OB line would be like the West Hempstead Line. A shuttle during the afternoon (like it is now) and a mostly Flatbush line. The problem with the Oyster Bay Branch is that is a North/South branch between Mineola and OB after 30 miles of East/West. Electric or diesel, most people don't want to spend another 45 minutes without getting any further east after the 30-40 minute ride to Mineola. Not when they could drive to either Port Washington, Syosset, or Mineola.
["Dedicated right lanes for buses only, no cars, so buses can make better time"]
Sea Cliff isn't Manhattan. Why should the thousands of drivers be inconvenienced for the small comparitively amount of LI Bus riders. If the N20 didn't spend so much time detouring to the Great Neck Station and through two college campuses (CW POST & Old Westbury) it could make up alot of time!!!
Two options John:
Move
Start driving and get a car!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't see how electrification of the OB Branch can help in any way. Right now they have the most modern trains on the LIRR. A one seat ride? I doubt it."
Well if the 63rd street LIRR tunnel opens with access to GCT, more trains can run to Manhattan.
For some reason most diesel lines have long headways, of at least 2 hours or more. The trains actually do get crowded. Electrifying the Oyster Bay would be cheaper than running diesel trains, and LIRR only has so many dual modes for direct Manhattan service.
Generally with the exception of West Hempstead LIRR electrified lines see relateively frequent service on weekdays (half hourly).
Electric trains seem to accelerate and stop quicker than diesel trains, which would save time and have more sets availible for use.
The Oyster Bay line doesn't have the best route, but I think most people avoid it because it is so friggin slow. I don't think we get above 35mph between Oyster Bay and Mineola. Speeds seem faster for some reason on the Port Jeff branch. People may also avoid the OB because you have to change in Jamaica. Alot of people prefer one seat rides. Obviously until more track space in Manhattan opens, there can be no more additional direct Manhattan trains, and thus the benefits of Oyster Bay electrification would be minimal until access to GCT is built. But service should be more frequent, Oyster Bay trains should run hourly and all night. The ridership is there, and even though commuters may shy away from it, that train can be pretty crowded, especially nights and weekends.
" Not when they could drive to either Port Washington, Syosset, or Mineola. "
When the traffic is bad as it usually is, it takes 20 minutes or more to get from those points from around here. That is not saving much time. Better bus service could encourage those people to use the bus to travel from Glen Cove to Great Neck.
"Sea Cliff isn't Manhattan. Why should the thousands of drivers be inconvenienced for the small comparitively amount of LI Bus riders. "
I'm talking major roads like Northern Blvd here. The bus lanes would be an entirely new lane, cars would not lose any lanes. Give buses a priority and more people will start taking them. Why sit in traffic when you could take a bus speeding down the bus lane, and getting priority at traffic lights (with some kind of system to have green lights for buses).
It's so typical of LI'ers to think the car is king, but I think there's a problem when there's traffic jams everywhere, and terrible air pollution. The Moses system of LI parkways is way over-taxed. And buses can't take parkways due to Moses anti-transit way of thinking.
LI needs to improve it's mass transit system, it is the only way quality of life is going to improve, not just in Northern Nassau county but all across the Island.
A combination of bus lanes, and rail improvements should get people to abandon their cars. It's getting to look alot like Los Angeles around here, and it aint a good thing.
>>>>>>>It's getting to look alot like Los Angeles around here, and it aint a good thing.
LA has created new subway/light rail lines within the past 12 years, and they already have dedicated bus lanes on the Highways there. Plus, many LA bus lines offer 24 hour service. Plus, it's Metro Rapid Limited stop buses (cost = local fare) have special sensors that keep traffic lights green when it's coming. Unlike most areas, LA is actively doing something to improve public transportation.
To compare Long Island with it's limited land mass and it's horrible bus service to LA with it's vast areas and improving transport system is simply not feasible.
LA may be improving, but it still has a long way to go. For most trips, it's pretty much a case of drive or nothing. Sure there are places where transit could get you into "the city"--but then what? The place is so decentralized you can't really do much in one place. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the rail lines don't serve many suburban parts of LA (the Valley, etc.)
Long Island's transit needs help, but the LIRR is still very extensive. Nearly all of Long Island is within a few minutes from some LIRR, and it is without a doubt the best way to get into the city. (It's not very good for getting arround Long Island though.) For local travel, well the Suffolk busses are godwaful. I used to ride the # 35, and there were instances when it did show up more or less on scehdule, but believe me Suffolk Transit is not to be relied upon. The Nassau busses (MTA LI Bus) are somehwat better, and if the county weren't in such dire straits, the system might well be expanding. It does have a large ridership base.
Furthermore, Long Island isn't all sprawl. Many Long Island communities (Huntington, Port Jefferson, Long Beach) maintain downtown areas that would be very transit friendly if there were some transit there.
Unfortunately, the direction towards improving LI's public transit doesn't seem to be the one that's being taken, though there certainly is hope for the East Side Access.
:-) Andrew
You keep on knocking NIMBYS. NIMBY means not in my back yard. As a homeowner, if any type of construction threatens my property values or my family's quality of life I will fight tooth and nail against it. That doesn't make me a bad person.
You have a point, however, these are the same NIMBY's that bought a cheaper house or rented a cheaper house near let's say a rail ROW and then complain when the ROW is used for what it was intended to be used for. Glendale is a great example of this. Residents there complain whenever the the NYA increases freight activity in the yard there, or the LIRR runs extra trains on the Montauk branch.
Another example is the Rockaway Branch. The NIMBYS have blocked many plans to reactivate that line, and it has been successfully blocked by the NIMBYS. Again the ROW was there way before any of the residents were.
If the thought of potential increased service bothers a person, they should look elswhere, away from a ROW when purchasing their homes.
As much as we hate some of his projects and their effects, we all must admit that the current NYC highway system makes a little bit of sense. The roads are all doing their jobs, and make up a vital part of the US highway system. We all prefer rail over highways, but we all know that NYC wouldn't survive without its highways in today's day and age. The city's location also makes highways vital.
Other than the highway's negative effects on the city, the only real problem with the current Moses highways is that they really aren't big enough. Most New Yorkers and myself would agree that we don't want any new highways in our city, and we are glad many projects fell through, but we also have to look at the current system and realize that its covering the bare minimum of the city's needs and demands on it.
The roads are all doing their jobs, and make up a vital part of the US highway system. We all prefer rail over highways, but we all know that NYC wouldn't survive without its highways in today's day and age. The city's location also makes highways vital.
This is true. Even though it destroyed entire neighborhoods, can you imagine NY without the BQE or Cross Bronx Expressway? Or Long Island without the Expressway? SOme of the other lost projects like the Bushwick Expressway may have also been very useful. I may not agree with his philosophy of not expanding public transportation, but I do see how a lot of his projects are very necessary. It is a shame though that we didn't have someone as powerful as Moses looking to build subways and other public transportation.
Although I don't agree with everything Caro states in The Power Broker (I think he had a vendetta against RM) he does show that the Cross Bronx could have been built without destoying any neighborhoods.
Although I don't agree with everything Caro states in The Power Broker (I think he had a vendetta against RM) he does show that the Cross Bronx could have been built without destoying any neighborhoods.
Caro's vendetta shows through when he discusses the Cross-Bronx. The project did not destroy any neighborhoods, contrary to his claims; those 'hoods which deteriorated afterwards were already heading downhill even before any work began.
>>>Or Long Island without the Expressway?
Yes, I can imagine that quite easily. Before the Expressway, there was the privately owned Long Island Motor Parkway. The great thing about private ownership is the taxpayer doesn't foot the bill. It was therefore madness to build the Long Island Expressway, worthy of some Commie place. Pretty damn amazing that it happened in the USA of all places.
I do agree that it's pretty odd that the staunchest supporters of capitalism tend also to be staunch supporters of tax-supported road networks (but not transit networks -- that would be socialism, after all).
That is changing, if ever so slightly, out in the rest of the country, where toll roads are being seen as a more viable option for construction in areas where there's been rapid growth. Interestingly, people those same areas are (surprise!) more receptive to light rail/increased bus funding when given the option between than and a toll road, as compaired to funding mass transit or free highways.
That is changing, if ever so slightly, out in the rest of the country, where toll roads are being seen as a more viable option for construction in areas where there's been rapid growth. Interestingly, people those same areas are (surprise!) more receptive to light rail/increased bus funding when given the option between than and a toll road, as compaired to funding mass transit or free highways.
Southern California has a privately run toll lanes that run more or less in the median of IIRC the Riverside Freeway. They have variable pricing, with rush hour travel substantially more expensive than the off-hours. When the lanes first opened, they were called the "Lexus Lanes," because everyone thought they'd appeal mostly to upscale, Alpha-male, suit-covered-anus types who'd be willing to pay for convenience. As it turns out, most of the lanes' users are plain working stiffs who have to deal with time clocks at work, and pretty much have to pay in order to avoid traffic problems and getting docked for being late.
Same this in Dallas with the Dallas North Tollway (which has been around for over 30 years, but it being extended north) and the new Bush Tollway. Regular people use them (the north end of Dallas has developed it's own business area so even the east-west Bush Tollway gets commuter traffic), but the toll charges do make people stop and at least think not only about using mass transit, but also about the logic of funding new mass transit projects, which is quite a change from in the past.
Yes, and IMO, that's a move in the right direction. Still, it leads to the strange inequity that if the road along my commute happens to charge a toll and the road along your commute doesn't, I have to pay more than you to get to work, even if the roads are practically identical.
Some see that as an argument to abolish toll roads. I see it as an argument to do the opposite: toll everything. The technology exists. There are privacy issues that should, perhaps, be worked out (or perhaps not -- one could argue that anyone who chooses to drive on public roads has forfeited his privacy already). The tolls would simply charge the cost of the construction and maintenance of the road along with charges for noise and air pollution and the like. Nobody would be barred from driving, but it would suddenly become crystal clear that there is an actual cost to driving from point A to point B, and anyone who would rather not pay that cost would be encouraged to find a different way to get from point A to point B or to find a different place to go (which might mean moving and/or changing jobs). Oh, and I almost forgot -- if tolls pay for all roads, there's no longer any need to charge a gas tax or to find money for roads in other sources, like property taxes. So those of us who tend to drive less than average (most here, I presume, given the nature of this board) would probably come out ahead.
Incidentally, although I don't have any numbers to back me up, my intuition is that, if roads were all tolled, public transit systems in reasonably dense cities, and certainly the NYC subway, would be self-sufficient.
Sell all the roads to Microsoft and Enron and any capitalist who will touch them!!! Then put a tax on road tolls...
Or Long Island without the Expressway?
Yes, I can imagine that quite easily. Before the Expressway, there was the privately owned Long Island Motor Parkway. The great thing about private ownership is the taxpayer doesn't foot the bill. It was therefore madness to build the Long Island Expressway, worthy of some Commie place. Pretty damn amazing that it happened in the USA of all places.
Long Island would be crippled without the expressway. Before the Expressway, the only route for trucks was secondary roads with lights like Jericho tpke, or the Sunrise Hwy circa 1960's. Passenger cars could use the Northern or SOuthern Parkways, but trucks can't because of the low bridges.
I do agree that the expressway killed a good part of LIRR freight, and do agree that more should be shipped by rail. However, rail transport is not necessarily the best mode for a lot of shippments, and some are best shipped door to door by truck. In order to do this you need a road like the LIE to handle this. TO say that the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway could have been an alternative to the LIE is absurd. The building of the LIE was hardly madness, even if sometimes it is just one long "parking lot", it is a very necessary road
Long Island would be crippled without the expressway. Before the Expressway, the only route for trucks was secondary roads with lights like Jericho tpke, or the Sunrise Hwy circa 1960's. Passenger cars could use the Northern or SOuthern Parkways, but trucks can't because of the low bridges.
I do agree that the expressway killed a good part of LIRR freight, and do agree that more should be shipped by rail. However, rail transport is not necessarily the best mode for a lot of shippments, and some are best shipped door to door by truck. In order to do this you need a road like the LIE to handle this. TO say that the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway could have been an alternative to the LIE is absurd. The building of the LIE was hardly madness, even if sometimes it is just one long "parking lot", it is a very necessary road.
While there's certainly room for improvement, I don't see that Long Island is going to be a particularly active place for freight rail anytime soon. Much of Nassau's and Suffolk's industrial base produces high-value, high-technology items, in other words not the sort of bulky stuff that's generally suited for rail transport. In addition, Long Island does not have coal-burning power plants or grain elevators. An intermodal yard might work if it weren't for the pesky lack of a Hudson crossing anywhere south of Selkirk.
While there's certainly room for improvement, I don't see that Long Island is going to be a particularly active place for freight rail anytime soon.
Exactly, and that's another reason why the LIE is necessary. Most of the truckloads moved on the LIE would not be conductive to rail freight. A good majority of it is door to door shipments, not shipments from/for industry that is better served by rail.
Rail frieght on LI is important for the inbound traffic: all the stuff Long Islanders buy in stores, plus heating oil, building supplies, etc.
"Vanderbilt Motor Parkway could have been an alternative to the LIE is absurd. The building of the LIE was hardly madness, even if sometimes it is just one long "parking lot", it is a very necessary road"
The VMP was abandoned long before anyone ever thought of building the LIE. VMP was basically a *long* Local Street that was privately owned. It was *supposed* to be a railroad, but Vanderbelt could not get an RR franchise, so he built his road for the new fangled automobile. I don't think he ever made any money on it.
Parts of it are still extant, and are no comparisson to the LIE
Elias
The eastenmost 10 miles or so are alive and well, but no LIE, as Suffolk County Route 67. Decidedly a county road, especially through the Town of Huntington.
:-) Andrew
Does anyone know what road(s) or other features existed in West (Elmhurst, Corona) and Central (Flushing, Fresh Meadows) before the LIE was built? Was there a "Horace Harding Blvd" or something?
I believe Horace Harding Blvd extended from about Queens Blvd to arround the Nassau line, where it became Nassau Road. They might have carried the NY 25D designation.
:-) Andrew
Microsoft's Streets and Trips shows Horace Harding Expressway North and Horace Harding Expressway South as the service roads for the Long Island Expressway.
Who knows... Maybe Bill Gates and Company could even be correct on this, although it should be simple enough for some one to go out there and look a the signs.
Elias
Here are the facts as I understand them:
Originally there was a Horace Harding Boulevard. It was swallowed up by the Long Island Expressway. But in those days, short segments of some of the Moses parkways and expressways had their own names (best known are perhaps the section names of the Belt Parkway: Shore Parkway, Southern Parkway, Laurelton Parkway, and Cross Island Parkway). The section of the LIE that took over Horace Harding Boulevard was alternatively known as the Horace Harding Expressway.
As a rule (often violated, though), a highway's service roads are given the same name as the highway itself, perhaps with a prefix or suffix. See, for instance, the Henry Hudson Parkway in Riverdale.
At some point, NYCDOT came along and posted street signs. Street signs aren't usually terribly useful on high-speed highways, but they went up anyway (there aren't many left -- I don't know if only a few were posted to begin with or if many were knocked down and never replaced). On highways with service roads, street signs are much more useful, so more of them were posted (and they've been better maintained over the years).
But recall that some highways have two names. For whatever reason, NYCDOT usually picked the section name for its street signs. On highways without service roads, that doesn't make much of a difference, since nobody notices those signs anyway. But on highways with service roads, everybody who lives, works, or walks along the service roads sees the signs.
Thus, many New Yorkers think that the service roads to a section of the highway known exclusively as the Long Island Expressway are called exclusively Horace Harding Expressway. In fact, the highway has two names, and the service road shares both of them -- the big green signs that people use to identify highway names give only one name, and the small street name blades that people use to identify city streets give only the other name.
I never understood why a pair of city streets (service roads) in Queens were given an "Expressway" name until I figured this out.
BTW, the Interborough Parkway name appears to still be on NYCDOT's books.
For anyone interested there is a good website that goes into detail on that and all the area roads. It's very interesting, although I forgot how to post a link in a response, so you will have to cut and paste...
www.nycroads.com
short segments of some of the Moses parkways and expressways had their own names (best known are perhaps the section names of the Belt Parkway: Shore Parkway, Southern Parkway, Laurelton Parkway, and Cross Island Parkway).
When did the portion of the Belt in Brooklyn betwen Knapp St and 65th St become known as the Leif Ericsson Drive?
--Mark
I don't know, but that's a ceremonial name, which is an entirely different ball of yarn. It has no business showing up on maps. (I don't see the Anton "Tony" Hulman Memorial Way along I-70 on my Indiana map, after all.)
I wonder how many "Korean War Veterans Memorial Highways/Parkways/Boulevards/Expressways" there would be if they showed all the ceremonial names on maps!
Which reminds me of NY 454, with the official (not ceremonial) name "Veterans Memorial Highway" (actually in Islip and Islandia the street signs read just "Veterans Hwy.") Elsewhere there are lots of roads with that name as a ceremonial designation.
Of course, the Korean War Vets Parkway is an official designation now in Staten Island, with a multiple of the number of sylables the old name had, Richmond Pwarkway. I susupect that SI residents gernerally refer to it as the latter.
:-) Andrew
"(actually in Islip and Islandia the street signs read just "Veterans Hwy.")"
On Long Island, eavh village can name and number its streets anyway it likes. It is not unusual for a road to change its name several times through its route.
And Sunrise Highway! Oh My!
Just you *try* to find a street address witht paying attention to what town you are in!
Elias
I very much dislike the recent practice of changing the actual name of a highway rather than assigning a ceremonial name.
The parkway on Staten Island is still the Richmond Parkway, as far as I'm concerned -- the new name is simply too long. I've also been known to speak of the Jackie Interboro Parkway.
When was the East River Drive renamed the FDR Drive? That's short and to the point.
I very much dislike the recent practice of changing the actual name of a highway rather than assigning a ceremonial name.
I have to agree with you. I really like the historic names to the roads. The Interboro, the Sunrise Hwy, 125th St, etc.
I don't have a problem with name changes if they make sense, like Park Avenue South (or Park Avenue in general), the UWS avenues, York Avenue.
But to have to pronounce Avenue of the Americas all the time, obviously people aren't going to bother.
<>
Yeah, we kinda do, LOL.
The sunrise Highway is the POW/MIA Memorial Highway, but aside from some of the signs, no one refers to it as such.
Sometime in the past few years. A Norweign group (I think it wsa the Leif Ericsson Society) pressured for the name to offset the Italian organizations that got the Cross-Harbor Bridge renamed to the Verranzo-Narrows. The reason: The Leif Ericsson Society had been pushing to get recognition for the noted Viking since evidence suggests that the Nordics visited (aka Discovered) America before Columbus....etc, etc...
I believe that area where Bay Ridge meets Sunset park used to be Brooklyn's Scandinavian neighborhood at one point. There's also a Leif Ericsson park and square between 66th and 67th street in Bay Ridge, and a Norwegian deli on 3rd Ave.
Most of my Norwegian relatives lived in that area up tothe 1970's.
This seems logical enough. Dave, (notice that I DIDN'T call you Mr. Greenberger) in my memory, there were LOTS of those interesection-type signs right on highways themselves back in the 1970s. They were green, just like today, except that back then, the ordinary signs on streets were color-coded by borough.
Some of those signs remain- I think there may still be one on the Gowannus/BQE inbound (I-278 East) near 79th Street in Brooklyn. When I go back to work next week (got myself a nice long weekend), I'll try to remember to look from the X-bus window.
I'd imagine the purpose of these signs was the same as the placard-like signs that are on overpasses today- so that emergency personnel and/or civilians reporting nay kind of trouble can describe the exact location. For example "There's a two-car accident on the SI Expressway at Woolley Avenue", where there is an overpass, but no exit.
Here's one of my favorites:
My absolute favorite is at the "corner" of the FDR Drive and the Triboro Bridge. Unfortunately, I never find myself in the left lane when I'm stuck in traffic there, and it's impossible to walk to it (I've tried), so I don't have a picture. Yet.
Humph, You want meaningless signs?
Out here we have a street grid (has to do with the 911 system) and so in this dirt road out of the Teddy Roosevelt National Park, you have every mile a street sign telling what street would be here if there were streets here in the first place.
I guess it *would* help an ambulance or a fire truck find you if you called on your cell phone, but there sure are no dwellings or buildings of any sort for 30 miles in any direction.
No NIMBYs either.
Elias
Where is that? North Dakota? (Isn't that where T. Rooseevelt National Park is?)
:-) Andrew
Yup, that's the place.
There used to be litle one room schoolhouses out here.
They are not schools anymore, but are mini bus depots.
Several small buses will dump thier kids off here, and then a bigger bus will pick them up and take them to the city for classes.
Total commute time can be as much as two hours each way.
Oh yeah... It also SNOWS out here!
Elias
I thought so. Anyway, streetsigns in the middle of nowhere seem to be a common thing out west. I know Tuscon, AZ extends into the desert, with street signs pointing to streets that aren't there. I've seen it in Utah too; miles and miles away from Salt Lake City there are signs with ridiculously high numbers in their street system, eg. "10,000 east".
:-) Andrew
"I've seen it in Utah too; miles and miles away from Salt Lake City there are signs with ridiculously high numbers in their street system, eg. "10,000 east". "
North dakota...
Arizona..
Utah...
I smell a FEDERAL RAT behind all of this.......
Oh Yeah... That's right... they all wanted FedBucks for their 911 systems.
Hey, if that's all it takes to get FedBucks, then lets hang more street signs... heck we got LOTSA desert!
Elias
It's the same thing in northern Los Angeles County -- the street grid runs out into the desert along Pearblossom Highway (Cal. 138) where you have nothing but street signs leading out into dirt roads that have only Joshua trees on either side.
Maricopa County (Phoenix) is Arizona is also pretty funny in terms of gradiose future plans -- before you get to the county line as you head towards California, you get to the "477th Ave." exit, which is also a pretty long ways off (like about 30 miles) from the nearest current development.
Sounds almost as desolate as Arverne/Edgemere.
Yes, that's the A train two blocks down!
lol...yeah some of these areas have gone back to "farmland"! It's become more built up now, but I rememberriding along the J in the mid 80's, somewhere between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway, there was a small little "farmhouse" sorrounded by burnt out and abandoned tenaments. A few years later they removed the abandoned buildings and there was this little farmhouse sitting there all by itself once again, with the weeds waving in the wind. It had gone full circle. It really was a farmhouse from when the land was farmland in the 1800's, then the tenaments were built, I guess in the early 1900's, years later removed, and now I believe they built one and two family homes around it....so the cycle begins again!
Sounds almost as desolate as Arverne/Edgemere
Urban renewal at its finest!!
Well, while NYC obviously has less open space than Utah or North Dakota, we still have some phantom intersections marked with signs.
Actually, I get the feeling that NYCDOT isn't putting up phantom signs anymore, but sure put up a lot of them in 1964 or so, when the "blade" type street signs (color coded by boro) first appeared. They saw fit to mark EVERY mapped intersection, probably with the idea that they'd be opened soon enough. For example:
Even as a small child, I knew that there was a signed intersection of Colden Street and Kissena Blvd, though there was nothing but weeds there. Having been out here in the Isle of Staten since 1979, I've spotted some here, too particularly along Amboy Road in Great Kills and Annadale- though the signs are/were of the black lettering on yellow background, as was used in SI and Manhattan.
If anyone's interested, I think there are still signs along Amboy Road, at non-existen interections with Holly Ave. and Colon Ave.
The unused part of the Richmond Parkway also have some fixtures that never got much use- the ramp from the parkway to I-278 West still has an intact lamp of the mercury vapor type and the ramp to 278 East has a similar lamp, with the diffuser missing- probably neither was ever lit. In Eltingville, on the part of Parkway just BEFORE traffic can enter, there's one of the big green signs advising of exits for Arden and Albee Avenues. Probably no one's ever been guided by that sign.
Yeah actually was out that way today, though a bit west in Rockaway Park. I was lucky again to get an R38 A train on this trip to the Rockaways, though the shuttle was the usual R44.
And about roads, Rockaway beach Blvd is a very nice one, tree lined and those old wooden LIPA subtransmission poles. Walked it from B116 to B149, with that lovely breeze I could walk for miles.
Also had my camera with me and got some shots from the R38 front window of Howard Beach and the flats. If you want to see the pictures they will be posted to my "place" soon at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/railsandtrains
I agree. Particularly, the Belt Parkway being such a vital link between the eastern and western sections of Long Island should have been built with four lanes in each direction instead of the current three.
Also the I-878 project should have been built (aka Cross-Brooklyn Expressway).
To the uninitiated: the proposed 878 route would have paralleled or ran above the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch from the Verranzano Bridge all the way to East New York where I believe it would have been merged into either the Interboro Parkway (Jackie Robinson Expwy) or the Conduit near Linden Blvd.
Doug
"the Belt Parkway being such a vital link between the eastern and western sections of Long Island should have been built with four lanes in each direction instead of the current three."
Ah Hem....
I do believe that it was built with TWO lanes in each direction, and then later was widened to three. Such was, I believe the way with all of the RM parkways. So even he had not allowed for the exponential growth of the burbs or King Car!
Elias
Another good project would be two bridges across the Long Island Sound: Rye-Oyster Bay (I-287) and Shoreham-New Haven (I-91).
The sortta tried that, but by then NIMBYs had moved to the area.
Elias
That's because you don't live on Long Island. I could just imagine how bad traffic would be with all the trucks that are normally on I-95 and the Cross Bronx now on the LIE.
Last I looked, I did.
Currently, Long Island is a dead end, people who live in Nassau and Suffolk Counties have to go west through New York City to go anywhere, or pay for those ridiculously expensive ferries.
In any case, going through Long Island would be an expensive detour for most traffic, they would have to enter and exit the island, paying toll on both occassions, and travel a longer distance to do so. There would be a disincentive for interstate traffic to create congestion on the LIE equivalent to that of I-95 because I-95 is a shorter cheaper route, if congestion is not factored in. Therefore if the Long Island Expressway was as congested as I-95, nobody would want to take the LIE route.
["Last I looked, I did."]
OK, you're right, I should have said Nassau or Suffolk instead of Long Island.
But seriously, I can't see how having two (or one) bridges from the mainland to Long Island wouldn't greatly increase traffic on LI. True, trucks to Eastern LI wouldn't have to go through Queens and Nassau, but I think there would be alot of truck traffic to/from the BQE-Verrazano route that would love to have a way to avoid the Bronx. Also, alot of the GW Bridge traffic now would go through the BQE-Verrazano to Joisey.
By the way, as someone who goes to Branford an awful lot, I would love to take the Seaford-Oyster Bay Expwy (135) north to Rye. Also Rye playland would be alot closer to me in Nassau. But in the long run, I'm still afraid of the traffic it would bring.
P.S. One of Moses' plans that never came to pass but should've was extending Ocean Pkway on both ends (Jones Beach & Captree) so that it went from the Rockaways to the Hamptons. That was his original plans when building Ocean Pkway. I doubt the Nimbys in Atlantic Beach, Long Beach, Lido, and Fire Island would let it happen now and I can't say I blame them, but wouldn't that be a nice alternative to the Southern St, Northern St, Sunrise Hway or the LIE?
But seriously, I can't see how having two (or one) bridges from the mainland to Long Island wouldn't greatly increase traffic on LI.
It certainly would, it just probably wouldn't reach the levels of I-95.
True, trucks to Eastern LI wouldn't have to go through Queens and Nassau
This would reduce traffic as some vehicles now have shorter trips.
but I think there would be alot of truck traffic to/from the BQE-Verrazano route that would love to have a way to avoid the Bronx. Also, alot of the GW Bridge traffic now would go through the BQE-Verrazano to Joisey.
I'm not sure, but I think the orientation of the Rye-Oyster Bay Bridge would make it a poor alternative for going through the Bronx from Brooklyn, Queens or Staten Island.
By the way, as someone who goes to Branford an awful lot, I would love to take the Seaford-Oyster Bay Expwy (135) north to Rye. Also Rye playland would be alot closer to me in Nassau. But in the long run, I'm still afraid of the traffic it would bring.
The increased traffic would bring with it added development and would increase the tax base.
I personally think that eminent domain shouldn't just compensate the people whose houses have to be torn down, but also those whose property values go down because they're suddenly in a less comfortable area.
Just thought I'd voice my support for both of those LI Sound Crossings, if it is ever possible to build them. I would prioritize the Oyster Bay-Rye crossing, and perhaps make it a tunnel to help reduce NIMBY concerns.
:-) Andrew
The are proposals for tunnels for both the Oyster Bay <-> Rye (NY 135 / I 287) & Shoreham <-> New Haven CT Sound Crossings. (SC 46 / I 91) (See NYCROADS.COM). The Tunnels Would Carry 3 Lanes Of Auto Traffic Each Way & Have 4 Rail Tracks (The Tracks Would Connect The MN, LILL & AMTrak).
Yeah I wish them luck in trying to build the Oyster Bay-Rye bridge, because the area is NIMBY'ville, nothing short of dictatorial power will work here.
"and perhaps make it a tunnel to help reduce NIMBY concerns."
HEY! Watch out for the FISH! they have concerns too, you big bully!
To the uninitiated: the proposed 878 route would have paralleled or ran above the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch from the Verranzano Bridge all the way to East New York where I believe it would have been merged into either the Interboro Parkway (Jackie Robinson Expwy) or the Conduit near Linden Blvd.
It would be nice if the Interboro (oh sorry the JR Parkway) didn't just "end" in the middle of nowhere. It would have been nice if it at least connected with the Belt. It would give an alternative fir getting to Eastern Long Island. YOu could go north or south on it depending on wheather you wanted to wind up on the Norhtern or Southern States. Currently if I want to avoid the LIE and start on the JR parkway, and want to go to the South shore, I have to take it to the Northern, and then travel south at some point to get to the SOuthern. It would have been nice ti be able to take the JR south to the Belt right at the beginning.
The original proposal was I-695, it would run from 65th Street at the Gowanus (the Gowanus would be 12 lanes from there to the V-N Bridge), then out to the end of the Interborough where it would meet the Buswhick Expressway/I-78 which would run from the Williamsburg Bridge to the Nassau Expressway at the airport.
Eventually the Bushwick fell out of favor to the city, so the project became I-878 and was rerouted to go straight to the airport and connect to the Nassau.
I-695 would have continued as the Queens Interborough Expressway and ended at the LIE/BQE interchange. When the CBkE plan was rerouted, the QIE plan was down to the Belt in Starrett City running along Van Sinderen Avenue (the L would be demolished and placed in the median).
The Cross-Brooklyn was killed with the rest of I-78 through NYC by Governor Rockefeller in 1971. The plans for the QIE were still active for a few years more.
Every time I ride the Canarsie line, I notice the Atlantic Avenue viaduct, which runs a half-mile from approximately Eastern Parkway Extension to Pennsylvania Avenue. At first glance it resembles a prewar limited-access parkway- two lines each way, decorative brick railing. LIRR's Atlantic Branch 1940 was put in a tunnel most of the way from Flatbush Terminal to Jamaica in 1940. East New York station, however, is at street level and partially visible under the viaduct.
This whole set-up may have provided for two things:
-To accomodate the tunneling of the perpendicular LIRR Bay Ridge branch.
-To accomodate a projected expressway ROW and/or interchange. Steve Anderson's excellent site lists several possible paths for unbuilt expressways through the heart of Brooklyn. Two of them would meet in a large interchange around Broadway Junction and tie in with, or absorb, the Interboro- er, Jackie Robinson.
-When Atlantic Avenue was redesigned in 1940 in conjunction with the LIRR tunneling, future conversion to limited access may have been kept in mind. Similarly, East New York Avenue, which leads right to the Interboro's terminus, goes through a long tunnel under the viaduct and both LIRR ROWs.
About a mile east, there's a partial interchange where Conduit Boulevard peels southeast off Atlantic. Conduit was also designed as part of an expressway- witness the huge medians to accomodate lanes. There's another partial interchange with Linden Boulevard and what looks like a potential cloverleaf at Cross Bay Boulevard.
If any of these highways had come to fruition, maybe the Belt and BQE wouldn't be so darned crowded on summer weekends.
Of course, if Moses didn't get his way when the Van Wyck was designed, we wouldn't see that concrete structure being built above it today. I can just imagine the typical business traveler or luggage-laden family having just landed at JFK and headed for Manhattan saying "Oh, good, there's the monorail that'll take us to the subway- we don't need a cab!"
Funny thing is, the city ultimately ended up with not enough subways OR highways. The result is BOTH are overcrowded and inadequate.
If Robert Moses was anti-highway and pro-transit, then we just never would have heard of him, instead we would have heard of a Rodney Abraham, a Reginald Isaac or a Ralph Jacobs who ruined the city with his pro-highways anti-transit.
The fact is that Robert Moses was just the man of his times, and other cities have gone in the same direction as New York did.
Maybe if there was no Power Broker, we'd have median-strip rail, and MORE highways (No Moses to piss everybody off), but there would still be no Second System or Second Avenue subway.
>>>>So if Robert Moses didn't exist what do you think the city would look like today?? <<<
I don't think subways and transit would have had any considerable advantage over autos even if Robert Moses had not come along. There would have been someone in power who followed the conventions of the time, which dictated that suburbia was the wave of the future, and so King Car would still have been paramount.
Remember, political power has never rested with transit users. There are organizations like Transportation Alternatives and Straphangers, which have scored some victories over the years, but you know what? They're on the fringe...not in power.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not for nothing, but the one thing that I gotta give Moses credit for is building of 'open spaces' in the city (meaning public parks). I think as Kevin Walsh pointed out in an earlier post that public transit would be about the same today since the mind-set of most planners in the Moses era was centered around the car and suburban expansion.
However, had there not been a Robert Moses, I think -- for good or ill -- there would have been less housing projects and public parks (aka playgrounds) as he was a big proponent of both.
[Espcially the Cross Bronx Expressway, which did Robert Moses in. (He was a fool for doing that].
Two points I have with this statement: (1) why was Moses a fool for building the Cross-Bronx Expressway? It was a excellent short-cut to get to the George Washington Bridge (among other things). The bad thing about it was the way in which Moses treated people who lived along the proposed route. If anything it showed what a bastard he could be. Not a man to be triffled with, obviously. (2) The building of the Cross Bronx Expressway was not what did Moses in. It was the Clearview Expressway that was his 'last hurrah'. The neighborhood of Douglaston (if I'm correct) put a stop to that route and the Clearview (after the Whitestone Bridge) remains to this day as basically a 'road to nowhere'...
Actually Doug, the Clearview can be a useful alternative to the oft crowded Cross Island as a way to get from the Throggs Neck to the LIE and Grand Central Pkwy. Also, commercial traffic cannot use the Cross Island.
[Ok, if Robert Moses didnt exist we would defintly have a highway system quite differently from the one that we have today. Espcially the Cross Bronx Expressway, which did Robert Moses in.]
The Cross-Bronx may have done him in politically, but he probably still made out like a bandit. Think about it: He purposely routed the Cross-Bronx to MAXIMIZE the number of displaced households, and NONE of those households ever got their relocation funds. Hmmm, where did all that money go?!?!
"and NONE of those households ever got their relocation funds. Hmmm, where did all that money go?!?!"
The Tenants were displaced, but they had no investment in the buildings. The Buildings were property of the landlords, who likely enough pocketed the money and (seeing that the rent control environment was a bad thing) went elsewhere.
End of Story.
Elias
In those days, there was probably was not a federal relocation entitlement for tenants. This has now changed quite a lot, probably in response to the terrible abuses of the previous era. By the way, Moses has never been seriously accused of personal corruption (not even by Robert Caro, who would certainly have made such allegations in his book if there was any basis for it.)
Imagine Moses forced to be a subway conductor in Hell? "Next stop, Hitler's eternal prison. This is the train to Jimmy Hoffa's molten pit. Stand clear of the closing doors please."
For one thing, if Moses didn't exist, the Verrazano Narrows bridge wouldn't exist, and New York traffic would be a horrid nightmare like the ones you hear about in Sao Paulo where jams are up to 50 km long!
...But I digress on that matter.
Back to the point: Yes, I think Queens would be different. Queens, in anyway you slice the cake, only has ONE trunk line on Queens Boulevard. And with all this talk of placing the Q on that line, it's a wonder that they don't have digital signs on the QB line platforms that flash: "Next Train: E - 8th Ave Local to World Trade Center/Chambers Street" or something like that every time a train arrives.
...Please tell me they DO have those kinda signs in those stations.
But with thde Second System, I think Queens would get a lotta relief with some new lines. Other places, extensions would get lots of cars off the road, but I doubt new lines are very likely. Manhattan, Bronx and Brooklyn are awfully well served (by many standards), and I think the subway MAY have lines to Staten Island. I don't know.
All those permutations, so little time. So many possibilities, destroyed by one dorkhead. Now everyone, please repeat after me at the top of your lungs:
"DAMN YOU, ROBERT MOSES!"
Everyone feel better? Good.
-J!
Well I have been doing more and more studying of NYC vs. other cities in the world. New York City is a very big corporate headquarters, but it literally sucks when it comes to the industrial areas. We also lost our ports to New Jersey. Cities like Tokyo, Hong Kong, Beijing London, and other have a good balance of both.
So for NYC to compete at a strong pace internationally against other major cities (Which I must say are still growing) We need to bring back the industries to NYC, rebuild the port areas, we do our highway system, and correct errors that Robert Moses made with his highway craze, and then expand the subway system to its point. Then we can compete full blast with the World.
When 9/11 occurred and we started loosing business after business, and the economy got weaker, it was a clear sign that New York relied to heavily on corporations. If we build more industries too, then it acts as sort of a shock absorber since now we have 2 strong areas to rely on instead on 1. With better transportation, and ports. It mixes the Old Port City of New York with the New Corporate New York City. Which in turns marks the vision of all New Yorkers, which will make sure that NYC stays as the capital of the world.
New York City and New York State JUST DON'T GET IT ... while there's "you can't touch me, nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah" benefits to being a New York Corporation, there's some serious downsides that the morons who govern just don't GET ...
It was a different reality when New York, like Chicago was a TRANSPORTATION HUB and any company that wanted to make money and ship product HAD to be in one or another "hub" ... nowadays, the reality is electronics communication ... a company could INCORPORATE in New York to take advantage of the laissez fairy but could actually set up shop in FIJI as long as there were telecoms ... anybody heard of "Bermuda corporations?"
Lemme give you an example - I'm a *PROUD* New Yorker, but I couldn't IMAGINE having our business in NYC where our already thin profit margins are pressed to the max paying UPSTATE taxes. If we had to pay NYC taxes on top of that, I'd be on welfare.
"We also lost our ports to New Jersey."
Northern New Jersey is an integral part of the NY metro area. Yes, it might have been better to keep port activity going in Brooklyn and maybe even Manhattan, but having the port facilities in NJ in no way reduces the ability of the metro area as a whole to compete.
What we do need is an infrastructure that treats the area as a whole: cross-harbor freight tunnel, sufficient passenger rail capacity from NJ, LIRR to GCT, as well as improvements like the 2nd Ave subway that are purely NYC (or even Manhattan) oriented.
Big shipping ports in Manhattan are a thing of the past and will never come back: There is no way to get big ship-loads of goods to those piers.
The PORT OF NEW YORK is on the New Jersey side of the river too, and *that* is where the railroads can get access to the ships.
Yes, there shouod be more ports in Brooklyn, but you need better freight service there too. Brookly is the only place on Long Island where big ships can load, and that needs to serve all of Long Island, and NY, upstate almost to Albany, and parts of CT too. Needs better freight rail connections.
Cargo to other parts of NE will come in at Boston.
Mosesmobiles was a BAD idea!
Elias
Speaking of cargo transport, it's too bad some underground subway couldn't have been built to transport goods to/from businesses in Manhattan. I heard that there was something like this called the Chicago tunnel company but it was abandoned.
There are way too many trucks on the road, freight trains are way better than all this long distance truck haul.
the political border down the middle of he Hudson is as obsolete as the one between Queens and Brooklyn. The industrial jobs did not move to Jersey, they went to Malaysia or the PRC et al. I certainly agree that more transit infrastructure needs to be built, but it is precisely to facillitate the spread of offices throughout the Mero area. as most wage earners can no longer afford the rents near their 'desk farms'. Recent data out here in the SF Bay Area still shows telecommuting to be very weak, so for most paper shuffling jobs, showing up at the office to be seen by the higher ups requires transport.
New York relies on service industries nowadays, not heavy industry. In reality, service industries are more reliable in that they don't go away unless the population goes away. The cost of living in New York City is astronomical, and wages for factory work in New York would have to be astronomical as well. This has a hard-hitting impact on industry, which wouldn't wanna move to NYC. Industry flourishes in areas where the cost of living is low....because that means they have to pay smaller wages. It just isn't profitable to have heavy industry in a place like modern-day New York.
The following is an installment from www.trains.com NewsWire. (Check this site for railroad news across North America)
1. Amtrak and Pennsylvania plan upgrade of Keystone Corridor
Amtrak and the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation will jointly fund a $140 million upgrade of the Philadelphia-Harrisburg Keystone Corridor that may include restoration of all-electric service, the National Association of Railroad Passengers reported.
An announcement of the five-year capital plan for the route is slated for June 11 in Harrisburg. The goal of the project is to reduce transit time from two hours to 90 minutes between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. This would be accomplished by restoring faster, all-electric service and lengthening the amount of 110-mph running.
2. Deadlines set for ongoing Downeaster speed case
The Surface Transportation Board has set deadlines for the next chapter in the ongoing saga of Downeaster train speeds.
Amtrak last month asked the STB to force Guilford Rail System to allow the Boston-Portland, Maine, Downeaster to operate at 79 mph. Test of the rail on the rebuilt line from Portland to Plaistow, N.H., showed that the route can safely support 79-mph operation, Amtrak contends.
Guilford, which has opposed 79-mph operation, contends that the current 59 mph is the maximum safe speed owing to track conditions and the number of grade crossings on the line.
Guilford must reply to the STB by June 10. Amtrak has 10 days to rebut Guilford¡¯s filing. The STB also asked the Federal Railroad Administration to participate in the case.
The Downeaster service uses Guilford¡¯s former Boston & Maine route. The faster speeds would cut transit time by about 15 minutes, which the train¡¯s backers say is essential for it to compete more effectively with parallel Interstate 95.
3. Amtrak offers Acela Express riders bonus Guest Rewards points
Amtrak is offering Guest Rewards members 10,000 points for every three Acela Express round trips taken on the Northeast Corridor, as a counter to similar frequent flyer incentives offered on the competing air shuttle services.
Through June 30, Acela Express passengers who belong to the Amtrak frequent rider program can earn 10,000 points for an Acela Express round trip between Washington and New York, New York and Boston, or Washington and Boston. First-class passengers earn 15,000 bonus points.
For more information, see www.amtrak.com.
Through June 30, Acela Express passengers who belong to the Amtrak frequent rider program can earn 10,000 points for an Acela Express round trip between Washington and New York, New York and Boston, or Washington and Boston.
This is insane. They could convert these things into Continental Air Miles, costing Amtrak $200 a shot. ($300 for First Class pax). Amtrak has just foregone any profit they might make on the Acela for anyone who chooses to do that.
That said, if people *don't* do that, then Amtrak will retain its market share...
Alicia
1. Amtrak and Pennsylvania plan upgrade of Keystone Corridor
Amtrak and the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation will jointly fund a $140 million upgrade of the Philadelphia-Harrisburg Keystone Corridor that may include restoration of all-electric service, the National Association of Railroad Passengers reported.
An announcement of the five-year capital plan for the route is slated for June 11 in Harrisburg. The goal of the project is to reduce transit time from two hours to 90 minutes between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. This would be accomplished by restoring faster, all-electric service and lengthening the amount of 110-mph running.
Don't hold your breath. This has been promised for the last few years.
They plan to start running AEM-7's by the end of this year. Crews are already getting trained.
The Keystone Corridor route is very curvy, not to mention a good portion of it see SEPTA commuter trains, even a few freights, so I would like to know how much 110 mph running will be possible. A train, like the Acela, that can tilt would maybe make that somewhat possible. A train with AEM-7s or HHP-8s I am not too sure about.
Acela's too heavy to allow higher speeds with tilt anyway. IIRC, the X-2000 was cleared by the FRA for faster speeds on curves than the Acela is, because of this.
Contrary to popular belief, there are only a few sections on the PRR corridor which were not suited to 90mph operation. I've ridden F40s "bricks" down there at >79mph (not sure it is entirely legal). There's one curve at Elizabethtown that's 55mph and the rest of the alignment are pretty good. Removal of the 4-track and pairing it down to 2 will give even more room for realignment. 110mph really isn't far off in that corridor, physically speaking, with AEM-7 sets.
What they need is some $$. The geography is in their favour.
Acela is a waste of resources on that line. Acela would do much better if they electrified the old B&O to Pittsburgh.
AEM7
The following is an installment of www.trains.com NewsWire, May 15, 2002. (Check here for railroading news across North America)
1. Grade crossing collision derails Meteor, snarls Southeast service
Amtrak service in the Southeast was returning to normal today after the southbound Silver Meteor collided with a log truck on a grade crossing in South Carolina yesterday.
The Meteor’s entire consist ?P40 No. 50, nine passenger cars, and one baggage car ?derailed but remained upright and in line after the 9:03 a.m. collision in Coosawhatchie, S.C., about 35 miles north of Savannah, Ga.
The New York-Miami train was carrying 103 passengers and 13 crew members, Amtrak said. Nine passengers and two crew members were treated at area hospitals for minor injuries.
With the possible exceptions of the locomotive and baggage car, the damage to the Amtrak equipment is not likely sufficient enough to add it to the dead line at the Beech Grove shop complex in Indiana. That’s good news for Amtrak, which barely has enough equipment to keep its national system running since last month’s Auto Train wreck in Florida.
The truck driver, Eric McKinney, 41, of Pembroke, S.C., was not injured. He blamed the Amtrak engineer for not blowing the horn in time for him to get his rig out of the way.
"That's the reason (the engineer) hit me," he told the Carolina Morning News. "That's the reason he needs to learn how to start blowing his horn. Regular (freight) trains that come through here blow their horns three or four times when they come through the woods."
The South Carolina Highway Patrol didn’t share McKinney’s view. They charged him with failing to yield right-of-way to a train, and said that visibility at the crossing was good and should have allowed McKinney enough time to see the train approaching.
CSX reopened its Charleston Subdivision main at 4:20 a.m. today. But the collision disrupted Amtrak service between Florida and the Northeast. Amtrak provided the following rundown of how service was affected:
Train 90, The Palmetto, which departed Miami Monday en route to New
York, terminated in Savannah, with passengers bused to all points north. Passengers who planned to board the train at stations north of Selma, N.C., instead rode train 80, the Carolinian, to points northward to New York.
Train 89, The Palmetto, which departed New York Tuesday morning en route to Miami via Tampa, terminated in Charleston, S.C. Passengers were bused to Savannah, where they boarded equipment from terminated train 90 and proceeded south to Miami.
Train 90, The Palmetto, that departed Miami on Tuesday, is running normally.
Train 98, the Silver Meteor, which left Miami Tuesday morning en route to New York, terminated at Jacksonville, Fla. Passengers were bused from there to Charleston, where they boarded New York-bound equipment from the terminated train 89. At Jacksonville, both sleeping cars from train 98(14) were put on northbound train 92(14), The Silver Star, which operated on its normal route via Columbia, S.C., and Raleigh, N.C., to New York.
Trains 52 and 53, the Auto Train, which operates between Lorton, Va., and Sanford, Fla., detoured on CSX’s S-Line via Raleigh and Columbia, which takes about four hours longer.
The only train originating today that remains affected is the southbound Palmetto, which was cancelled so Amtrak could balance equipment. No alternate transportation was provided, although Amtrak said it would try to accommodate passengers on other trains.
CSX, meanwhile, rerouted three intermodal trains and the Tropicana juice train over its parallel S-Line, spokesman Dan Murphy said.
2. Providence & Worcester U-boat rides to Amtrak’s rescue
When Amtrak HHP-8 No. 658 failed while leading train 171 near Westbrook, Conn., on Monday, the nearest rescue locomotives were on a Providence & Worcester local freight.
Amtrak quickly commandeered P&W U23B No. 2207, which pulled the disabled motor and its Acela Regional train 29 miles west to New Haven, Conn. The 25-year-old 2207, one of the few General Electric Universal (“U?-Line diesels remaining in main-line service, began life as Conrail 2796 in 1977, and was one of the last U-Boats built during the transition to GE’s Dash 7 locomotive series.
After arriving in New Haven with its characteristic loud chugging and plumes of black smoke, 2207 spotted the dead HHP-8 in Amtrak’s Motor Storage, while a 21-year-old AEM7 motor quickly tied on to train 171 to convey it west. This may be one of the classic GE’s final moments of glory, as P&W is phasing out most of its second-hand U23Bs with recently acquired ex-LMX B39-8s.
3. Amtrak, city officials, dedicate new station in Provo, Utah
Officials today dedicated the new Amtrak station in Provo, Utah, which replaces a small dingy shelter that California Zephyr passengers had to use.
The new station features benches, automatic heating systems, a concrete platform, pay phones, information displays, landscaping, and a paved parking area.
"We felt it was critical that Provo have a nice, well-maintained facility to greet rail passengers," Provo Mayor Lewis K. Billings said. "This new station will provide train travelers with good shelter from the weather and a sense of place when they enter or leave Provo via Amtrak.?lt;P>Amtrak Intercity’s government affairs director, Ray Lay, said the station is a “new front door to Amtrak’s intercity rail service."
4. SEPTA honored for station renovation project
The renovation of SEPTA’s station in Strafford, Pa., was honored today with a 2002 Outstanding Preservation Project Award from the Preservation Alliance for Greater Philadelphia.
The award recognizes the efforts of SEPTA and DPK&A Architects to restore and preserve the circa-1880 Strafford station, a former Pennsylvania Railroad structure.
The station, served by SEPTA’s R5 Paoli/Thorndale trains on Amtrak’s Philadelphia-Harrisburg Line, is an example of Victorian stick architecture.
The Preservation Alliance considers the work at Strafford Station an outstanding restoration and rehabilitation project of a historic railroad structure. Through the years the station has endured severe acts of nature, relocation from neighboring Wayne, and a damaging fire in June 1999.
"The restoration work at Strafford Station was done with such quality that it retained the historic fabric of the building," said Randy Cotton, assistant director of the Preservation Alliance. "We were impressed with SEPTA's commitment to finish the restoration project even after the fire. This project is another in a chain of successful restoration projects by SEPTA. It's good to see an agency committed to preserving history."
This news is all stuff that people can find about on their own, if so desired, I don't think posting it all here is a wise use of our hosts bandwidth. Post a link if you want.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, I happen to find these posts quite useful. I don't have time to read all the railfan sites.
Alciia
Delta Express Shuttles operating from Boston to New York had experienced a 20% ridership decrease recently. Delta tries to increase it by giving its customers triple miles, a convenient baggage check-in system (I forgot what it was exactly), and Delta's willingness to "get another plane for you if one is full."
Delta's 70-minute flight from Boston to New York has been decreasing in popularity, as Delta thinks the 20% loss went to AMTRAK, particularly the high-speed Acela Express, where Delta has been targeting at.
I heard on a commercial a month ago on the radio which really put down AMTRAK's AE service, where a narrator compares two riders, one (A) on a Delta Express Shuttle, and one (B) on an Acela. Rider (A) has the convenience of checking in and boarding right away, and is off to New York and arrives 70 minutes later on time. While Rider (B) has still 1 hr. and 30 minutes looking in front of them at someone's funny shaped head."
I don't know about the conditions now, but wasn't AMTRAK's Acela Express designed to be competitive with airline shuttles? Delta has finally come to realize that and is willing to do almost anything to get its customers back.
Delta has a funny idea of how much fun getting to and checking into a major airport it. And they seem to have forgotten about the hour it takes to get from LAG to midtown by Mosesmobiles!
Now if you were flying from Dickinson NORTH DAKOTA it would be a different story.
Sure, the travel agent tells you to be at the airport two hours early, but 100 minutes of that is waiting outside the LOCKED DOOR until the airport personel arrive to open the airport. Few minutes later the plane lands, and the pilot will help you with your bags.
TRY THAT IN LAGUARDIA! PHFTftftftftttttt.......
Sure, the travel agent tells you to be at the airport two hours early, but 100 minutes of that is waiting outside the LOCKED DOOR until the airport personel arrive to open the airport. Few minutes later the plane lands, and the pilot will help you with your bags.
But usually, (unless for connecting flights), vacationers don't usually have tickets for the Shuttle and businessmen who have a meeting in NY might bring a suitcase and one other bag at the most, so they don't need to be at the airport 2 hours early.
I know security now takes longer, but not a huge difference on the wait time.
4 hours leaving Newark for Atlanta, the entinre time spent waiting on the security line. Got through security 25 minutes prior to departure time, and the plane was held for another 45 minutes.
-Hank
And I'll bet you the pilot didn't even help you with your bags!
What is this world coming to!
I'll bet if you got on a train, and needed some help with your bag, the conductor would hav been happy to help you.
Fly AMTK!
Yes, the conductor would be happy to help, but would the engineer be?
NAhh heys in the loco.
4 hours leaving Newark for Atlanta, the entinre time spent waiting on the security line. Got through security 25 minutes prior to departure time, and the plane was held for another 45 minutes.
But they tell you to arrive at the airport 2 hours prior to departure, as supposed to the usual 1 hour for domestic flights because of security. Does it really take 4 hours? And if it sometimes does, I'm sure it's not for all flights.
For the Delta Shuttle, they are currently guaranteeing 20 minutes from check-in counter to gate, or they give you 20,000 miles. In my experience, since the shuttles have their own counter and gate areas, waits at security are rarely significant. Weather delays and airport congestion are much bigger factors for the shuttles than security checkpoints.
For what it's worth, I've taken 6 flights since 9/11 originating in the U.S., and the longest time I had from the very end of the check-in line to the gate area was 45 minutes. That was leaving from EWR during the height of the Christmas travel season. Security wasn't even the bottleneck that time, it was the line at the check-in counter-- everyone showed up hours early for their flight, causing overcrowding in the terminal.
" I know security now takes longer, but not a huge difference on the wait time. "
??????
That was true before the holidays, when after security there were no line at all to speak of. I don't find it to be true now.
In March, I spent 90 minutes waiting OUTSIDE McCarran in Vegas, 90 minutes waiting INSIDE, and THEN wait some more in the security line, and my flight was delayed due to weather.
history: When Eastern (eaten by Delta) first started the DC-NY shuttles, you paid on board and they made great hoopla about rolling another plane for one passenger-n reservations)
It was only in the darkst days of PRR/PC incompetence that the trains ever booked fewer riders than the planes on that segment. The major victory of AE other than a facelift on what is already the densest rail usage west of Europe, is precisely capturing the New England leg of the market. The twisting back country route of the New Haven was always slow. compared to the PRR racetrack.
I am pleased Delta is hurting. As to time.convenience, with laptops and cellphones for the busy business geek, the market willing to pay AE fares, the train can be a comfortable rolling office with an attached coffee shop. (and it is a TRAIN!)
Here's how the chronology went. There were (and are) two shuttle operations between NYC and BOS and NYC and DCA.
When Eastern went bankrupt, the assets of the Shuttle were puchased by Donald Trump, and it became the Trump Shuttle. Trump then sold the business to a consortium of banks, known as "Shuttle, Inc." Shuttle, Inc. hired USAir to manage the operations, and even though it was known as "The USAir Shuttle," it was only a marketing name. But after a while, USAir (which became USAirways) bought the operation from Shuttle, Inc. -- and that's how it remains now. [I worked for Trump/Shuttle, Inc./USAirways for eight years as their consulting meteorologist.]
The other operation was New York Air (Apple), when they went kaput and sold its shuttle operation to Pan Am. When Pan Am went kaplow, Delta took over the reigns -- and continues to this day.
BACK ON TOPIC.
A few weeks ago, I had a scheduled one-day round-trip from Boston to NYC via Acela Express (south on the 6:15am, north on the 5:00pm). During the morning, Boston's Logan Airport was fogged in, and there were NO FLIGHTS in our out. During the afternoon, there were strong thunderstorms in the NYC area, resulting in three- to four-hour air traffic delays. Needless to say, if I had planned to fly, I would not have made my appointment at 10am in NYC, nor would I have made it home that night.
The air shuttles are somewhat faster than the trains when all goes well (no weather or air traffic problems). It comes down to a risk/reward tradeoff -- where time, hassle, and cost are the factors. Over the long run, train travelers in these two market pairs will have a higher success factor (and lower overall cost) when using the train. That's not to say that some portion of their trips would have been a bit quicker by air.
Todd, Thanks for correcting the shuttle intricacies.
I remain optimistic that as AE works out bugs, it will like unto Metroliner before bring the ridership up. The ultimate benefit IMHO of the project was and is the electrification/line improvements as even an AEM7 (unrebuilt) with Amfleet cars can beat the times of any diesel hauled conventional train as well as saving the time wasted changing power at New Haven. "Take the all-weather rapid transit" (CTA slogan of the 50's.
One other correction: It's the "Delta Shuttle." "Delta Express" is
Delta's low-fare airline which runs mainly to Florida.
Maybe Amtrak will hire me again to do a new commercial about how
the Acela Express is "weatherproof." (The last version I did ran
on WCBS in NYC from October through January.)
Here's a link to the commercial I did for Amtak's Acela Express last year.
It'll be interesting to see what happens to the USAirways Shuttle if/when USAirways goes belly-up. It could be bad for Acela, and for the Delta Shuttle too, if a discount carrier picks up the shuttle and cuts fares significantly, to the point where they really undercut Acela and Delta. Both Delta and USAirways have long run their shuttle operations under the assumption that the business travelers who make up the bulk of their ridership aren't overly concerned about price. That assumption may have been true in the past, but is starting to change. Businesses today often regard travel costs as a prime area for cost-cutting. Hence a discount airline, with its lower operating costs, could really eat into Delta and Acela.
Exactly who might be willing to buy USAirways' shuttle is another matter. Southwest, the discount carrier par excellence, might not be interested because of its antipathy toward crowded, slot-controlled airports, although such a break with tradition is the sort of audacious move that Southwest would enjoy. JetBlue and AirTran are two other candidates, and in the former's case there's plenty of IPO money to snag the shuttle. It'll be interesting to see how things transpire.
I have my reservations about whether the NEC is really suitable for discount operations. Your point about the slot-controlled airports hits the nail on the head; other reasons why Southwest might not want to buy: (1) Shuttle demands use of 757's or 767's at peak times, not Southwest's favourite aircraft (2) USAir has a serious union problem, so if a non-union carrier wants to come in, they will need to dismantle the company and start from scratch, and they will need to do this before Acela runs them out of the market (3) The NEC is a very peaky market -- more so than other Southwest runs like Houston-Dallas; Southwest may well be forced against its limited price-discrimination philosophy
Southwest already run PVD/BWI flights, if I remember correctly; I think a few other players are running BWI/BOS and a few other OD pairs (I think it's JetBlue). In that sense the discount carriers are already in the NEC, but their traffic is nothing compared to Delta or USAir. I think there is a reason why discount carriers aren't attacking the busy parts of the NEC. That would be like Southwest trying to get into DFW.
Alicia
The Delta Shuttle runs 727s. USAirways Shuttle has some sort of Airbus plane. 767s are too big to take into National and if they used 757s, the shuttles would have been grounded until very recently. The ban on 757s since 9/11 was only lifted in the past two months.
All of Delta Shuttle's planes are now 737-800s. The 727s are gone.
USAirways Shuttle uses A-320s. (I can remember when Eastern flew
both the L-1011 and Airbus A-300 twin aisles on the BOS-LGA route
during peak times.)
As for the idea of a discount carrier in the shuttle market, NY Air
(Apple Air) tried that and went bankrupt -- operating costs are too
high.
BACK ON TOPIC.
Acela Express has been at "full service level" now for less than a year. Of course 9/11 gave them a boost, but I think it would have
gotten to a significant market share sooner or later. We haven't had an extended period of bad weather in recent years, where BOS or LGA is shut due to extensive fog or long-lasting snow storms. This too shall come!
My guess is that when things fall out, there will be one successful air shuttle, plus AE.
My guess is that when things fall out, there will be one successful air shuttle, plus AE.
Agreed. I figure that the surviving shuttle will be DL's - unless WN or B6 acquires the US shuttle, in which case that'll be the survivor. But Acela definitely will be around for the long haul, I've no doubt about that.
They are not at full AE levels yet, although my studies of the schedule while coming home on train 141 today showed that there is only express service between NY and Boston during peak times. There are still Metroliners in service for a few more weeks at least, the rumor is that it will be all AE in June. I saw the trainset with powercar 2000 in the yard at Philly. It has been there for quite some time though.
GOOD! I'm glad to see that Delta is worried. The short hop air-shuttles filled a niche before Amtrak stepped up to the plate.
These days you spend way more time in the terminal than on the plane!
I lived in Boston for 10 years, and getting into Logan at any time other than 5am is just a nightmare, unless you're coming from the North Shore. Delta clearly (intentionally) misses that.
The airlines should concentrate on better service on the transcon and international flights, where they are more clearly competitive. -Like lunches that don't come in a box, for example. Hopping planes on 30 minute flights just wastes our already limited supply of fossil fuel.
I'd like to see the SFO-LAX corridor get high speed rail next.
>>I'd like to see the SFO-LAX corridor get high speed rail
next. <<
YES!!!
instead of the insane plans to fill more of the Bay for more runways even as usage has dropped SFO several slots in usage ranking.
If you want to get high speed rail between SFO and LAX, the tracks has to be independent of freight lines and earthquake resistant.
Japan's Shinkansen provides an example of how to construct a high speed rail system with a lot of earthquakes. However, how to acquire land is a big problem.
Chaohwa
right on both points (quakes/exclusivity) There is an active movement for exactly that. Recent action in Cal stae legislature has been positive.
Good pep talk for Acela. We need to hear that.
As for SFO-LAX, do you people have any idea how much infrastructure costs? Exclusive infrastructure is not necessarily the answer. Back at TRB a while ago I saw an insane presentation on how they are going to build conventional HSR through the Tehechapi (or whatever) mountains with no provision for doublestacking and a 10-mile long tunnel. That tunnel alone will set you back some $500 million.
There are plenty of rail routes between SFO and LAX, although not all of them are suitable for HSR. For example, the Coastal Corridor (SP, single track, DTC) is probably too cuvatious and too much of a pain to maintain for HSR. However it's not an unthinkable proposal to simply add two express tracks beside the current BNSF(?) inland route with a few cut-offs where necessary. The tracks should be designed for both freight and passenger operation, particularly doublestacks. The economies of scope are huge. When the HSR trains go home for the night, freights could be detoured over the pax tracks while the freight line is closed for maintenance. Also, if capacity ever became an issue, they could use the pax line to segregate intermodal traffic from merchandise traffic, probably with a bunch of cab-signal fitted BNSF locomotives that can haul intermodal at 110mph. Now there's some competition for I-5.
Alicia
--
Alicia Emma Mueller VII, Pittsburgh PA
Actually the plans call for a line up the valley hitting the major pop. clusters roughly duplicating "99" As to costs, the mega tunnel you mention is AFAIK off the list for exactly that reason.
On dual use, however, I register dissent. 1. the freight guys already have heir own routes and if they want dounle track, let them ay for it out of stockholder investment. 2. Far more importantly, I have read that some high speed pass engineering conflicts with freight engineering--especially 'banking' or 'super elevation' on curves.
ethical disclosure--I am a VERY minor stockholder in CSX and NS
2. Far more importantly, I have read that some high speed pass engineering conflicts with freight engineering--especially 'super elevation' on curves.
This is true, but it is only true to the extent of increased maintenance. If the curve is engineered for a balancing speed of say 150mph, then it is probably possible to run pax trains at 200mph and freight trains at 110mph without problems. Don't have any calculations but curves are usually engineered for a balancing speed of 90mph when it is shared pax/freight track with pax at 125mph and freight at 60mph in the UK.
The superelevation cannot be so high that a train becomes unstable if it were stopped on such a curve. Emergency brake application, signal checks etc can cause a train to stop on a superelevated curve. By that token, freights can go through at any speed provided that the vehicles are designed that way. Wheel lubrication may save on maintenance costs.
1. the freight guys already have their own routes and if they want double track, let them ay for it out of stockholder investment.
If you're a really a stockholder in CSX/NS, you would be interested in any taxpayer's $ coming in to rescue your railroad. The latest talk from CSX has softened a lot on the front of allowing taxpayer investment. CN are the only people holding out but they are also the only railroad that hadn't really been "duplicated" by an interstate system paid for at taxpayers expense. If CalTrans is expecting to spend $ on this project, it had better do a social cost-benefit analysis and I suspect such analysis would show that the benefit of mixed traffic exceeds the costs.
Alicia
Since you mention, NO My view is that the CSX management are dishonest and incompetent. They have refused to run 'baseball specials' for MARC feigning lack of track capacity. These are the folks who whine about welfare moms (John Snow CEO was a signatory in newspaper ads supporting the Gingrich goons in their budget fights with Clinton) and then turn around demanding Fed or other public money for signal upgrades and trackage improvements before 'allowing' more MARC and VRE service increases. In the Virginia case they have realigned AF interlocking PUTTING back the flexibility they eliminated in one of the economy drives. While these improvements certainly ease operation of the few commuter trains, they ultimately are a great deal for the railroad. And although a stockholder (for railfan nostalia reasons) as a taxpayer I believe we are all being ripped off. It was under Snow's economy moves that bottlnecks wre creatd on the RF&P by single tracking a bridge etc. Now, they want public money to undo the private mistakes. Mind you the company gets public money to operate these commuter trains. And these are the geniuses who block auto racks from Lordstown Ohio to Jessup Md(halfway btwn DC and Balto) to then run them back west to first Hancock Jct. (ne train) and then Shenandoah Jct(second train) for interchange to NS. This is over one hundred miles backtracking on the SAME route.
It was under Snow's economy moves that bottlnecks wre creatd on the RF&P by single tracking a bridge etc. Now, they want public money to undo the private mistakes.
I have a completely different view. CSX's economy drive was completely correct under the market conditions under which they were operating. Short-sighted perhaps, but economically sound. Obviously, it was the lack of legislation preventing the ripping of plant that was to blame. In the 80's, after Stagger's Act, Congress obviously failed to realize that when the competition is based on price alone, no one will want to invest in plant, and they also failed to realize that one day the American public will want commuter trains again. So it's completely justified that the taxpayer should pay through their nose for those commuter train paths.
No one had the foresight in Congress to realize that they cannot continue to expand the interstate system indefinitely and one day they would have to turn back to the railroads for both passenger and freight capacity. It's about time CSX cashed in. Ditto BNSF, NS and UP.
Mind you the company gets public money to operate these commuter trains.
These commuter trains do not cover costs. The reason is simple -- the price of flexibility in schedules, especially in today's freight world, is vital. Commuter train throws a wrench into the unscheduled operations. Although there are benefits for scheduling freight trains also, it is only right that a customer who insists on to-the-minute ontime performance ought to pay for that privilege. The commuter authorities don't pay nearly enough for railroads to regard them as worth the hassle. CSX's railroads are private property -- no one, except Amtrak, have automatic rights of access.
Alicia
"CSX's railroads are private property -- no one, except Amtrak, have automatic rights of access."
BNSF *tries* (I think) to accomodate AMTK, but once an AMTK train is off schedule, though nuggies kiddo, we got a business to run too, you know.
Host roads should *gaurantee* a time slot to AMTK,
and pay penalties if they cause delays to AMTK trains.
On the other side, AMTK has an *obligation* to be on time, or they both lose their slots, and ought to also pay a penalty for delaying freight services.
ELIAS
While CSX is certainly a private company, as with any such publicly regulated utility, they are required to operate for "the public necessity and convenience." As to commuter trains being underpriced, each side in these negociations has lots of lawyers and bean counters, if CSX is undercharging, they signed the contract--its no different from underpricing a contract for intermodal,unit ooal or grain or any other shipment. As to commuter trains getting in the way of freight, CSX is in my estimation a joke. Stand trackside for instance at Point of Rocks (on the former B&O main)on a random November weekday for 5 plus hours--5 trains total including one MARC commuter. This is not a 'plugged' railroad.
Compare the following. I questioned a consignee at a plant tour regarding inbound unit coal trains for the generation units (AEP) getting a dejected response--deliveries (from an on line mine less than 150 miles away) are completely random and he gets no more than a couple of hours notice all of which results in massive overtime for his in plant switching crews as well as completely wasted time when no trains arrive for two days. Visit the CSX site to read the disgusting Performanc Measures.
While CSX is certainly a private company, as with any such publicly regulated utility, they are required to operate for "the public necessity and convenience."
And it should not be forgotten that historically, the so-called "freight" railroads were obligated by charter to operate passenger service. Amtrak was created specifically to take over this obligation from them, but they are not (at least morally) relieved of the obligation to facilitate the provision of passenger services on their roads.
-- Tim
no, but expecting US corporations to operate 'morally', without government compulsion, is like believing in the tooth fairy.
The RR's expected/hoped Atk would quietly go bankrupt within a few years and simply go away. Happily, for those of us who prefer trains, Atk continued to gain riders despite starvation funding, RR dispatching sabotage, etc.
no, but expecting US corporations to operate 'morally', without government compulsion, is like believing in the tooth fairy.
But toothfairy exists. I got my $ for my teeth.
The RR's expected/hoped Atk would quietly go bankrupt within a few years and simply go away.
How do you explain, then, that four railroads bought into ATK in the early 1970s? (yes, you could buy shares in ATK if you were a participating railroad.)
Happily, for those of us who prefer trains, Atk continued to gain riders despite starvation funding, RR dispatching sabotage, etc.
BNSF and NS have all been very positive about ATK trains, esp NS who gives ATK Triple Crown trailers to carry because NS is basically a coal haulier and they let ATK handle the express stuff. CSX and UP I'm not so sure about. CSX now has a vice-president of passenger operations -- the ex Amtrak guy Paul Reistrup. And he's not there just to guard paths for Coal trains. Don't bash these people. They have a business to run and they are trying their best to balance some very difficult objectives.
CSX intermodals run at an average speed of 23mph in the Northeast. I think they are going to get serious about some express stuff, possibly in conjunction with ATK or even instead of ATK. Express (well and tonnage) is how you make money these days. With the CTC coming on line on the B&O main, it won't be long before they could run two separate railroads, the CSX Coal railroad and the CSX intermodal/passenger railroad.
Alicia
Maybe in the northeast CSX will become more cooperative, but my own experience with them (on the lines through Virginia and North Carolina) is that they have gone out of their way to make things more difficult for Amtrak. Double track line used by six Amtrak trains each way per day? Single track it! Single track line used by two Amtrak trains each way per day? Abandon it! Underutilized double track line (thanks to the abandonment of the single track line mentioned above) with one track CWR, one track jointed rail, being considered for a possible DMU-powered commuter line by state and local government? Single track it by tearing out the three year old CWR! These three scenarios actually happened in the 1980s/early 1990s - the first was the ex-ACL line between Petersburg, VA and Weldon, NC, the second was the ex-SAL Virginia Division between Richmond, VA and a point just north of Henderson, NC, and the third was the remainder of that line into Raleigh, NC, four years later.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd like to see the SFO-LAX corridor get high speed rail
next.
YES!!!
instead of the insane plans to fill more of the Bay for more runways even as usage has dropped SFO several slots in usage ranking.
Increased low-fare competition from OAK is SFO's main problem.
I beg to differ, while I do not have stats to hand the general buzz here is less total travel. Even the otherwise very sucessful ATK and other (CalTrain, ACE) rail routes have sagged winter quarter because the economy is not too happy.
I'd like to see the SFO-LAX corridor get high speed rail next.
I think this corridor's fine. Comparing train schedules to plane schedules here is quite a bit of a difference. I experienced this on a United Shuttle from SFO to Burbank (in the vicinity of LA) and the flight time is around 1 hour. The distance is 326 miles. For business people who see it as "time is money", I think the shuttle over on the west coast is suitable, since one would not be carrying large baggage waiting for baggage check-in.
I researched a little bit on fares comparing the Delta Shuttle from BOS to LaGuardia on June 3rd in the morning and the afternoon. The 68-minute flight (RT) has a fare of $235.00.
Comparing to AMTRAK's Acela Express fare on the same date and times (not exactly), the estimated 3hr. 30 min. trip (RT) has a fare of $238.00.
I'm not a business man to experience, but which would you choose?
As a businessman I'd choose the train. What the timetable doesn't take into account is the amount of time spent getting between downtown and the airport, or the cost thereof. Factor that in and you'll find the AE to be comparable in time and cheaper in price. Plus there is the intangible value of a far more comfortable ride on Amtrak than on the taxi/airplane/taxi combination.
Speaking from experience...
Anon_e_mouse
If the flight was out of JFK, I'd take the plane. Out of LGA I'd probably take the train. Out of Newark I'd certainly take the train.
I neglected to mention that I would take the plane out of JFK because it's much easier to get to than Manhattan from my home. If I lived in Manhattan, then I wouldn't take the plane at all.
Well, I guess the Shuttle operates to LaGuardia, because when I plugged in JFK, some other jetliner flight caught my itinerary, making the price $435. Then I'd definitely take the train.
Based on the numbers you've listed, the biggest consideration would be where you're going once you get to Boston. If you're going somewhere near one of the Amtrak stations, I'd suggest the train. The possibility of lengthy delays, plus travel to and from the airports offsets any small time savings on the plane.
If you're heading somewhere out in the suburbs (and will need to rent a car) then you'll want to fly. Renting cars at Amtrak stations is generally a nuisance at best. If you're a frequent renter you can be in your car and on your way at an airport location within 15 minutes of when your plane touches down.
CG
I failed to mention that if you're not going to downtown Boston and you are coming from somewhere on Long Island, your cheapest and fastest bet is to take Southwest Airlines from Islip to Providence (r/t under $100) and rent your car there.
CG
I failed to mention that if you're not going to downtown Boston and you are coming from somewhere on Long Island, your cheapest and fastest bet is to take Southwest Airlines from Islip to Providence (r/t under $100) and rent your car there.
You also can get the MBTA from Providence to Boston. Presumably there's some sort of van or bus shuttle service from the airport to downtown Providence, though how convenient it is, I couldn't say.
It's interesting to note that Southwest's schedules tout PVD and MHT as "Boston area" airports, but don't call ISP "New York area." I can't figure out why.
<< It's interesting to note that Southwest's schedules tout PVD and MHT as "Boston area" airports, but don't call ISP "New York area." I can't figure out why. >>
Because PVD is in Rhode Island and MHT is in New Hampshire. ISP is in NY so it's superfluous to call it "New York area." Even diehard NYers don't think "NY" ends at the Queens/Nassau border.
It's interesting to note that Southwest's schedules tout PVD and MHT as "Boston area" airports, but don't call ISP "New York area." I can't figure out why.
Because PVD is in Rhode Island and MHT is in New Hampshire. ISP is in NY so it's superfluous to call it "New York area." Even diehard NYers don't think "NY" ends at the Queens/Nassau border.
True, but people traveling to New York from other parts of the country might not realize that ISP is quite convenient. WN should add a line to its schedule noting that there's a quick connection to New York.
Most people unfamiliar with NY geography will at least know that most of New York State is not near NYC. If MacArthur isn't listed as an NY-area airport, people won't consider it as such.
Flying from Islip to Providence is ridiculous, to me it seems like flying from Newark to Philadelphia. This is why a highway/RR cross-sound bridge is needed.
<< Flying from Islip to Providence is ridiculous, to me it seems like flying from Newark to Philadelphia. This is why a highway/RR cross-sound bridge is needed. >>
Which won't happen regardless of how much it may be needed. There's always the Pt. Jeff and Orient Point ferries. The PJ ferry doesn't save much time over driving unless you happen to live in PJ, but it does takes 2 hours out of the hardest portion of the drive between LI and Boston. OTOH, it's by no means cheap to take a car across on the ferry. My cousin (who lives in Boston) usually takes the Orient Point ferry to LI and then drives to Yaphank, and he says it's a real timesaver over driving the entire route.
Many years ago I took the PJ ferry to Bridgeport then hoofed it to the Bridgeport train station where after a 15 minute or so wait I hopped an Amtrack to Boston. Saved time, actually, because there would have been a 75 minute or so layover at NYP waiting for the train had I taken the LIRR into the City.
Also, I think the cabin-type would matter. It's a Business class on the train and a Coach class (unless if you want to pay more and upgrade) on the plane. But the seats don't have a lot of difference, just the train has more comfort, curtains for the windows, elegant, new atmosphere, etc.
BTW, why are seats toward the center of each car slanted so you face the train at an angle, instead of "in-line" like the regular seats?
Now you guys got me interested. You have basically re-stated what I had believed all along: Metro access is vital to the competitiveness of HSR. Now, let me to one of those stated preference tests:
Supposing, just supposing, there was some way for the Acela to depart from locations other than Penn Sta. Excuse me if I sound really stupid but I don't know NYC very well. Say we made Acela terminals at the following locations, with running time from that location to BOS given:
Jamaica (4 hrs 10 mins)
Flatbush Av (3 hr 50 mins)
Concourse, Bronx (3 hr 20 mins)
Acela timing from NYP-BOS is about 3 hr 30 mins.
Now would you take the train? Even if the train only goes to South Station, so you would need to run around in BOS looking for a taxi or some car hire place.
Alicia
Some of your suggestion are not hypothetical at all, but actually similar to quite real items, and some are simply impossible.
There already are 4 Amtrak NEC stations in the NYC suburbs: Newark and Metropark NJ, New Rochelle NY, Stamford CT. Jamaica is theoretically possible, but you'd have to make the train reverse direction in Penn. And actually, there are so many LIRR trains from Jamaica to Penn that it's pretty convenient to take a train in to Penn and switch to Amtrak. Flatbush Ave is out of the question; you'd have to go back to Jamaica first; easier to take a subway to Penn.
A new Amtrak station in the east Bronx (not Concourse, which is nowhere near the ROW) is theoreticaly feasible. Much of the Bronx ROW is not densely populated, so it's hard to see Amtrak justifying such a station, except maybe at the far south end of Co-op city (but that's not really convenient to the actual buildings in Co-op City).
I think the problem is more on the Boston end. If you're not going to downtown Boston or the southwest (Rte 128), the train may not be so convenient. Of course, Logan isn't convenient to anywhere much either. For business travelers, the problem is that the large array of offices in the western suburbs isn't convenient to any form of tranist. Some people fly to Providence event hough it's further because the traffic is lighter.
All Amtrak trains also stop at Boston's Back Bay station, which is right in the center of the Copley Square/Prudential complexes. It is also adjacent to the Orange Line and one block from the Green Line.
At one time there was a plan to send Amtrak to Port Jefferson, but I don't know what ever came of that.
At one time there was a plan to send Amtrak to Port Jefferson, but I don't know what ever came of that.
When was this idea proposed? I'd like to know. Would it require drastic changes for that to happen?
At one time there was a plan to send Amtrak to Port Jefferson, but I don't know what ever came of that.
When was this idea proposed? I'd like to know. Would it require drastic changes for that to happen?
When the redbirds go to the 207th Street yard, do they go as a ten car set, or when they retire from revenue service are they pulled by a engine, I noticed directly across from the East 180th street station, they are some Dyre Avenue trains, that look like they could be heading out of service, Thank You
A number of cars go into temporary storage at Concourse Yard before going to the reef. Not sure how many cars go at a time to 207th St, but a 10 Car Train sounds about right. They emerge into 207th St under their own power, and come out as empty shells, a significant departure from their former glory. Diesels pull them around to the back of the yard by 215th St and remain there until it is time to be loaded onto the barge. The carbodies go into the water, but the trucks are actually scrapped the old fashioned way. The 'birds use dummy couplers for movement with the diesel, as the actual operating couplers are removed.
-Stef
Trainsets sent for demise go as married pairs. CI Peter
Till death do us apart!!!.
I just got upstairs from scanning in a couple of pictures for you guys and I've discovered that geocities has gone down again for maintainance for most of the Victoria Day weekend and I can't load them up. Nuts, espeically since there's one that at least a few people will get a laugh out of. They'll be available as soon as geocities gets up and running again....
-Robert King
They had sent me e-mail about that several weeks ago and when I tried uploading today, as soon as I saw the error message, I remembered.
www.orenstransitpage.com will be back up when Geocities is and new content with a new layout will be online shortly after that.
When do you think the last redbird will be retired? Will they keep some redbids for fan trips?
I heard from "8AV Fulton Exp" (AOL screen name) that MTA can't get rid of all the Redbirds. Can somebody update on that as I don't know about this situation.
Thank You.
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Here's a look at one of the new NJT Comet V cab commuter cars scheduled to be delivered by 2003. Some design components have been revised from the Comet IV as to make it slightly lighter (about 6 to 13,000lbs). We're gladly waiting for it from ALSTOM.
Click on the corresponding links of your choice to view that picture:
Comet V cab car 6000
Comet V trailer 6500
Both pictures were taken on April 3, 2002 by Steve Kay at the Meadowlands Maintenance Complex.
Purpose
NJ TRANSIT is purchasing up to 230 push-pull rail cars, of which 200 are required to replace the Comet I fleet and certain Comet II cars. The remainder will allow for ridership growth stemming from the Secaucus Transfer, Montclair Connection and other services. At the request of Metro-North Commuter Railroad, up to 30 cars (5 push-pull control cars and 25 push-pull trailers) have been included in the option for Metro-North who will reimburse NJ TRANSIT for the cost of the cars.
Description
130 new single-level push-pull commuter rail cars are being purchased with an option for an additional 100 cars for a total of 230 cars. This includes 50 cab control cars with 110 seats, 80 trailer cars with 118 seats and an option for 53 additional cab cars and 47 additional trailer cars.
The Comet V cars will be the first cars to be totally controlled by the IEEE 1473 network trainline. Cab cars, new electric and diesel locomotives will have fully integrated controls and diagnostics. All train systems diagnostics will have a wireless connection to the NJ TRANSIT maintenance system. The Comet V cars can be configured in any direction within a train. All Comet V systems can be monitored from any car in a train. The Comet V cab cars will be equipped with the Positive Train Stop (PTS) system.
With the exception of the front of the Comet V, the sides look similar to the M-7's.
Bill "Newkirk"
With the exception of the front of the Comet V, the sides look similar to the M-7's.
I thought the sides look like an Acela Express car without the colors and the side doors. Do you have a picture of an M-7?
RF Pete,
I don't have any M-7 pictures, but try this.
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=161704&messageid=1021514397&lp=1021514397
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill you're right, they do resemble M-7s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why do all the Year 2000+ new commuter RR cars look the same even if they are being designed by suposidly different firms? Tapered sides, acordian gates, flat stainless steel, you'd think these things were rapid-transit vehicles. Come on, can't we see some corregation or something. Dosen't that enhance stregnth? Notice how the old "bad" cars would typically seat 130 people and the new cars only seat 118. I'd rather sit in a cramped seat than stand.
Stupid FRA, out-lawing vestabule cabs. Didn't they see the crash test w/ the Silverliner 1's? The cabs act like a crumple zone! Ah well, its not like the crews ever let you use them.
Bears a striking resemblance to the LIRR M-7. Definitely obvious who their makers are.
There is definitely similarity here, but not by much. Don't forget that the M7's have a black looking front similar to the R142(A)/143. Also, the top headlight is different than the Comet V's.
This past week, I spent two days near DC to check out Metro and other things. Since I was staying at a motel in Laurel, I was about 8 miles from the Green line Greenbelt station of Metro.
The new CAF cars are presently in revenue service on the Green Line, though I haven't seen any elsewhere. The cars basically look identical to former equipment. There are small differences of course, but there are some new items to note.
1) The interior fluorescent lighting uses cool white tubes as opposed to the pinkisk warm white. Maybe it's the different fluorescent tubes, but the walls seem an eggshell white.
2) The carpets are an updated color of blue /dark red. Say goodbye to the old gold and brown rugs.
3) The seat cushions are now blue and dark red. An improvement from the old gold vinyl. The seat cushions on the transverse seating at the ends are still gold.
4) There is a visual LED annunicator sign on the ends of the cars like the R-142/143. One train I was on had the signs visually annoucing stations, while the other I rode said GREEN. There was verbal announcments on the two trains I were on, so the operator announced all stations. The sound quality of the pA seems better and clearer compared to the older cars.
5) The front and side signs are not flip dots, but LED's. Even the route stripe was green LED's. The signs are nice and bright.
6) Sounds - These cars have AC propulsion and sound different than the Rohr cars which were retrofitted for AC propulsion. They sound similar to the R-142 (Bombardier) but still different.
7) The cars are fast and have the usual Metro ride. I asked a train operator at Greenbelt how he liked the cars. He said they are very good, but still needs to have the bugs worked out on them.
Next time you're in DC, head over to the Green line and check them out. Photography is best on the outdoor stations on the Greenbelt side.
Bill "Newkirk"
You were lucky to get one, I have yet to even see one.
The trains do not have automated announcements. The T/O should have been making announcements. I am surprised they were all that clear, the Green Line T/Os are known for mumbling more than on the other lines.
>>You were lucky to get one, I have yet to even see one<<
Both days, I saw at least two trainsets running. While riding one, another was on the opposite side going the other way.
Where are these cars manufactured ? Spain ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Where made? Hunt Valley Maryland. At the northern end of Balitmore's light rail line.
Can you tell me what are the numbers for these cars? Are they 5000s?
Thank you.
The CAF cars will number 5000-5191.
wayne
Best station for that would be Prince George's Plaza - I will be going to DC in late June and will be sure to check them out. Green Line is high on the to-do list due to the fact that I haven't been south of Anne Accost Ya.
wayne
Construction for this new terminal, slated to replace Bridge-Pratt, is underway. In fact when approaching on the Blue Line, the first thing you'll notice is the concrete trackways. The trackways are partial in construction, but there are concrete forms for the rest and a lot of constructuion activity going on.
Normally I would suggest that the warm weather is here and head to Philly and photograph the construction. However, to play it safe, I asked a supervisor if it was alright. I told him I was a transit enthusiast and I was not with the news media.He didn't say yes and didn't say no either. He told me that permission from the Philadelphia Police Dept. was now the norm. He also said, "don't let any cops see you taking pictures". To play it safe, I boarded the next train and didn't make any waves.
This seems to me that another thing we have taken for granted has been affected by 9/11. Has anyone been told the same thing and what is SEPTA's ruling on photograhy within the system.
Bill "Newkirk"
SEPTA, even before 9/11, was pretty tough on photography. It is the only place where I can count on being challenged, and indeed, I have been, by the police, usually asking if I had a permit. It's probably a good idea to go to SEPTA HQ and ask for a permit first, otherwise, take your pictures at street level.
--Mark
Even several years ago, I was advised by a SEPTA police officer that I couldn't take pictures from the platform at Bridge/Pratt. In the '70s and '80s, I regularly took photos there without a word from anyone.
I was told by a SEPTA police officer at Fern Rock that I couldn't photograph on SEPTA property. I was trying to photograph one of the U34CH's that SEPTA leased from NJDOT to take trains from the Reading lines into 30th Station via the Belmont Junction interchange when the track into Reading Terminal was closed for trackwork.
More recently, also at Fern Rock, I was railfanning SEPTA with Keystone Pete when the BSS dispatcher made some cryptic remarks to Pete about photography on the platform.
Years ago, nobody seemed to care much about photography on SEPTA property other than at yards, carbarns and shops. That said, it was possible in the late '70s to sign a release at SEPTA HQ (then at 3rd and Wyoming) and roam around to your heart's content through the bays or outdoor storage tracks - unescorted - at Luzerne Depot, camera in hand, with no problems at all. (Those were still the glory days of the PCCs in Philadelphia!) Knowing the risks posed by inspection pits and such, I imagine this practice has long since been abandoned.
3rd and Wyoming....rough 'hood.
Im looking to move in the near future, and im curious...
Flushing and Jamaica Estates.
Williamsburg hands down!
Astoria. Absolutely. Preferably Broadway. So much good food!
John
Is there a neighborhood in NYC where you can't find good food?
Yes. but you don't have to worry about that in astoria.
nevermind the food. i can live off the chocolate alone. amonia cafe all the way...
There are still four or five good restaurants in Little Italy that serves great Dago food. I will sure to hit a few of them while I'm in town. Are you riding the rails next week?
Maybe, but it will be the Gettysburg RR. Memorial Day and Labor Day Weekends are the only time we actually can get away for a whole three days.
Are you really visiting Gettysburg on either Memorial Day or Labor Day?
Give my regards to Taormina's if you go there.
I liked the place where we ate last year
So do I. What was the name of the place? I forgot. Hope you had a good vacation. E-Mail me. I have some news to tell you that I don't want to burden others on the site with.
I will call you about 6PM your time
Maspeth, of course!
Brooklyn Heights
The Kings Highway section, now known as Madison Pk, shopping, Edelman s Deli, Express stop on The Brighton, hasn t changed that much in 50 years, except a little More Orthodox. And you still can get a egg cream
can you mention Why is it your favorite neighborhood? Im tryin to gather info on different areas to see where i wanna move. Thanks!
The most important considerations FOR ME (and remember, I don't have a family so schools are not #1 on my list) are...
To quote Lawrence Olivier, is it safe?
Is it along a major transit route? I don't drive,
and is there a real neighborhood, a sense of community? I wouldn't want to go to a street of little boxes that all look just the same, and have to hit the mall whenever I wanted something.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Flatlands is a favorite of mine, for it's 'suburbia in the city' feel to it, but it is certainly inconvenient for those dependent on mass transit.
Prospect Heights as I mentioned in another post has much to offer:
(1) Relatively safe now (like Williamsburg of the '70's it was a baaaad a-- 'hood).
(2) It has excellent access to transit: The Franklin Shuttle and/or the IRT at Eastern Parkway or Grand Army Plaza. Of course the FS allows for access to the Fulton/8th Avenue subway, so for the transit-dependent it is a superior choice of neighborhood.
(3) The neighborhood is adjacent to trendy Park Slope (restaurants & shopping), yet the rents are more affordable as it is on it's way to becoming upscale.
(4) close proximity to arts and culture institutions. The Brooklyn Museum of Art, Botanic Gardens, and the Central Branch of the Brooklyn Public Library are all within walking distance.
I also recommend Sheepshead Bay if you love being near the ocean. It has one of the largest fishing fleets in the city. Transportation is provided by the Majestic Brighton Beach Line of the BMT. Of course if you are more on the eastern edge of Sheepshead Bay (closer to Knapp St.) you would be dependent on bus-to-subway for sole transportation if you don't own a car.
Ridgewood!
I would have to say Ridgewood also....
Is the Ridgewood you are talking about Queens Ridgewood or Brooklyn Ridgewood.
Fred liked my old neighborhood of Kings Highway
I sure did. I really like those Ukranian girls with the high cheek bones and pretty faces. Wow' Good thing I'm married, loyal to my wife and a gentleman and a scholar.
Is the Ridgewood you are talking about Queens Ridgewood or Brooklyn Ridgewood.
I used to live in the "Queens" Ridgewood, but it was only a few blocks from Brooklyn. My old neighborhood had sort of a "Brooklyn" feel, with older buildings, etc, and it was on the side of Forest Avenue that was for some reason able to escape loosing it's original street names, instead of the Queens "numbered" Streets. Most of Queens lost it's street names in the early 1900's. Luckily my old section of Ridgewood kept it's names.
GP: There was a world of difference between the two Ridgewoods in the early 50's. The Queens side was about 50-50 between Yankee and Dodger fans, with a few New York Giants fans to pollute the equation. On the Brooklyn side all you saw were Dodger shirts and hats. Like about 99% of the kids were fans of the Bums.
GP: There was a world of difference between the two Ridgewoods in the early 50's. The Queens side was about 50-50 between Yankee and Dodger fans, with a few New York Giants fans to pollute the equation. On the Brooklyn side all you saw were Dodger shirts and hats. Like about 99% of the kids were fans of the Bums.
lol......I grew up there in the 70's and 80's (on the Queens side), so I never had the pleasure of having to worry about the Dodgers.......but I guess the fans were about 50/50 for the Mets or Yankees at the time.
Bay Ridge is a nice, safe neighborhood with a lot of facilities (lots of food, lots of stores, decent subway/bus access, etc), and the rent is reasonable.
Bay Ridge all the way.
Yes, very nice. I chose it over all other Brooklyn neighborhoods (if you can't afford the Heights, Bay Ridge is very nice).
The R train can suck sometimes, tho'. With the Man Br mess, it's usually a long long all-local-stop trip into Manhattan.
>>>>Bay Ridge is a nice, safe neighborhood with a lot of facilities (lots of food, lots of stores, decent
subway/bus access, etc), and the rent is reasonable. <<<
Bay Ridge rents have caught up with rents in the rest of NYC, ie. completely unreasonable. 3 rooms should not cost $900-$1000...May God have pity on us if Pataki realizes his lifelong dream and eliminates rent control.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Word to the wise: If you depend on a car for transportation you might want to reconsider Bay Ridge...
Bay Ridge is a NIGHTMARE if you own a car! If you don't have access to a garage expect to (1) get ticketed often or (2) develop a 'buddy system' with a neighbor who also drives to garranttee yourself a spot.
Unless you have a house with a driveway/garage.
it's a nightmare by transit if the r is cut to 59th...
Sounds a lot like Manayunk in Philadelphia!
Thats much more reasonable than what i am paying now in Sunnyside. I have a huge(1100 sq ft) 1 bedroom apartment that i am paying $1600 for.
Woodlawn, in the Bronx....Nice quiet, Irish neighborhood.
Works for me.
Also, I like Ridgewood.
Glad that someone finally spoke up for The Bronx. The adjoining neighborhoods of Bedford Park and Norwood are nice too.
Excellent, one seat, public transportation to midtown via 4 choices, The D/B train, The 4 train, Metro North or LL express bus.
Nice ethnic mix, Old Irish/Jewish, Asian (and many excellent restaurants), Hispanic, West Indian, African and many young families from the Balkans also.
Rents are also cheaper than most other similar areas in Queens or Brooklyn. Usually about $700 or so for a 1 B/R in a decent building.
Oh and don't forget. Van Cortland Park and the INCOMPARABLE NY botancal garden within walking distance.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for the props! I live in the Bronx. I LOVE Westchester Square and Middletown Road along the 6 line. Pelham Bay Park is great, too.
Uh, Andee...that's 'Da Bronx of Course!' Get it right..
;-D
Sorry...I refuse to perpetuate linguistic stereotypes.
Peace,
ANDEE
Born and raised in DA BRONX ... whatchoo talkin' about Willis? If you can't manage an authentic dialect, maybe you aren't spongeworthy. :)
Don't forget the incredibly good Puerto Rican food. I've gone to Jerome Avenue just to eat breakfast sometimes - stuff your face with a delicious breakfast for $5!
Very true...and don't forget....Pastellas(sp?) to DIE for.
Peace,
ANDEE
Pastellilos ... and I'd give my left NUT right now for one the way they used to make them years ago at Merit Farms ... in the window. Hola! Esta muy bien! Viva la Bronx! :)
Just to make you jealous...I had some the other night.
Peace,
ANDEE
Are they STILL in the large original form of a half-moon that's all yellow greasy? A folded 10 or 12 inch in diameter with meat down in the bottom like one of those "duck call whistles" that never worked, or are they those BS "Jamaican meat pattie" type ripoffs with "caribbean spices" instead of what Las PuertoRiqueno Grandmere made only on holidays?
The *REAL* pastellilos are not to be found, only those ripoff "caribbean style meat patty-like objects" from Philadelphia ... if you can find the real thing, I wanna make some arrangements with whereever you FOUND them ... those things are better than sex if they're REAL.
By the way - important correction, spelled "pastelillo" wrong. THOSE were the *ONE* thing I miss not living in the Bronx ... those and handmade Jamaican meat patties. (though both have been replaced by these awful GOYA "caribbean style empanada-like substitutes" that can even be bought up here in Smallbany (phew! Yuck.)
I swear, pastelillos have become a "lost art" among Riquenos ... grandma made them for holidays and Merit Farms sold them by the case (and they were REAL) ... words cannot describe how much I *miss* those ... and curried goat dinners and other wonderful things that you just can't get outside da chitty ...
Sorry for turning it to food, but DA BRONX (BMTman has it right) is a very unique experience, mostly food, part drugs. :)
ANDEE sent me this a while ago, but it's worth sharing again. Heh.
You're truly from the Bronx if you can relate to any of the following:
The subway is not fun.
You know some Spanish even if you never took it in school.
Is it just me, or is every girl a real bitch?
You've taken the Bx31.
You once fell asleep on the train after midnight, and the conductor woke
you up in Brooklyn.
The Grand Concourse has too many lights.
If you're from Westchester you're not really from NEW YORK.
You don't go to Manhattan; you go to "the City" or "downtown."
The Major Deegan sucks, so does the New England Thruway, and the West
Side Highway costs too much, but you know them like the back of your
hand.
Your parents took you out for REAL seafood, in City Island.
You've gone to at least 10 different Parish Bazaar's whether you were
Catholic or not and whether you liked the school or not.
People live in groups and you know or you can tell where each group
lives: Italian, Black, Puerto Rican, or Dominican.
There is at least one pizza place within 1 block of your house.
You love your car.
You curse a lot.
You know the difference between going with, seeing, fooling around with,
and going out with someone.
Private beach? What's that?
You know where to find alcohol at 3 AM.
You've stumbled into a diner-- after 4 a.m.
You have no reason to go to the South Bronx, except for Yankee games.
You've driven under the train.
You're appalled, but go to the Motel on Webster.
You've been to Bronx Zoo at least once for every grammar school trip.
There is a bar down the block and you've hung out there.
There is a 24 hour store a few blocks away.
You can correctly pronounce places like Long Island, but don't know how
to get there.
Your parents always talk about moving away, but you know they never
will.
When you say you live in the Bronx, people look at you like you're
poverty stricken and you just feel the need to slap them right then and
there.
You always take the express bus and not the train home from the city at
night.
The only decent mall is in White Plains (galleria), and you're willing
to make the trip.
Your mom always talks about Alexander's that used to be on Fordham Road
You are a drug dealer.
You know you're from the Bronx when there is a Big Pun mural within 5
miles of your house.
You're on a first name basis with the Arab who runs that 24 store, and
he even gives you a pound.
You know at least 3 drug dealers in every building next to a bodega.
You know where to buy loose cigarettes.
You've been able to buy tobacco products since u were 15.
At least one of your friends knows how to roll a Dutchmaster (duchie)
You insist the Bronx has the best weed.
You think a slice of pizza and a 25 cent juice is a well balanced meal.
Every year when you were little around Christmas time you'd go to the
house on Pelham pkwy.
Everyone calls each other "BRO"
You know all the cops at the 45th pct. by name.
Everyone swears that they are related.
You've spent some part of your life smoking weed and drinking on the
corner.
You know at least 3 Tony's and 4 Maria's.
When you hear people calling each other outside their building instead
of using their phones.
When little Italy mean's Arthur Ave. instead of Little Italy in
Manhattan.
When u tell people from Manhattan to come visit u in the Bronx they get
scared they're gonna get stabbed or robbed.
Moo. :)
And......You probably root for those God=^%$%#$@&* Yankees, unless you have that rare attribute called class.
I do you old F*rt, and you know I do
They're exceptions to every rule---and you don't have to keep bringing up my age. It's all in the mind anyway.
Calm down, Fred. Kevin's a Met fan, too.
You're right. I kind of forgot. Everytime I hear the word Bronx, I hear the Yankees and my day is partially shot to hell.
Unca Fred ... I thought I already passed your "huh test?" :)
I'm not particularly into sports but if I *had* to choose a baseball team, it WOULDN'T be Steingrabber ... so as I've said before, put me down as a METS fan. But alas, growing up in Da Bronx, professional uniformed sports is an anathema. A broomstick and a spaulding make for a proper ball game. :)
Kevin: I got a real shocker when I spent a few weeks in the city back in '91 and '99. They don;t play stickball anymore, either in the street or against handball courts--you know the square box strike zone and all that. I saw no one playing it in the parks. The game seems to have disappeared like the old candy stores I remember. A lost of New York seems to be disappearing before my eyes. When I was a kid stickball, the handball court variety, was my game and I was very good at it. Sorry to see the game go. It worked wonders for the batting eye when we played hardball for the PAL.
Heh. I wasn't terribly good at it but it sure was more fun than "real" baseball ... I guess "Johnny ride a pony" is out of vogue too. But hey, it was fun while it lasted and the price was right.
So is, hopscotch, ring-o-levio(sp?) and 1-2-3 redlight.
Peace,
ANDEE
Dang! What's the point of showing up then? :)
THE FOOD! and excellent mass transit.
Peace,
ANDEE
.
Heh. Surf old buddy ... you're slipping. What y'all need is an egg cream ... for those outside the city (YO FRED!) ... revive that "fresh off a LoV" nostalgia with this little ditty:
1.) Get a good size 12 oz. glass and pour in one cup of half and half.
2.) Put a tablespoon into the glass of cold half and half and pour in the warm seltzer while stirring until the familiar head which appears in about a second.
3.) Add seltzer to your favorite height while stirring and then...
4.) Add 4 tablespoons of the vanilla syrup and stir it up!
That's my personal recipe for a homemade vanilla eggcream, you can make it chocolate if you prefer by using a thin chocolate syrup instead of the vanilla.
If your're really brave you can add a scoop of your favorite ice cream to the edge of the glass but don't tell your doctor or your dietician about any of this.
"Thin Chocolate Syrup"??
If doesn't have U-Bet in it, it ain't an egg cream.
Heh. Couldn't agree more about the Fox's ... but when you get more than 100 miles from da city, you can't find that stuff. Sometimes Hershey's has to do it or you might as well have a sarsparilla. :)
OK guys, here is what I need and need like yesterday. Where can I get a good egg cream in New York this weekend? I need to know the street and borough and how to get there from the Milford Plaza where I will be staying Saturday to Tuesday. I haven't had a real egg cream in decades. If you can help me out, please do. I would appreciate it very much. I don't even know if any candy stores still exist that serve them so I am at your disposal.
You're staying at the Mildew Plaza? Ewwwwwww. Heh. Watch out for the wimmens outside - they're not REALLY wimmens. :)
Sorry I can't recommend any places, all the good places (especially the Gem Spa downtown) ain't there anymore. I'm sure someone will know someplace "in town" though so you don't have to wander out to Norwood or East New York to cop one ...
What about that place Bob referred to in Brooklyn? You could ask him.
We can always mail you some! :)
--Mark
Heh. A CARE package for the hillbillies ... I love it! (don't forget to pack some GO's [the hot dogs, not the bulletins] and some pastelillos and meat patties) ... ;)
I'd pass on the hotdogs - too much Lysteria or Salmonella risk ... we wouldn't want you to stop writing code :)
--Mark
That which would kill us only makes us stronger. After all, street dogs build strong antibodies 12 ways. :)
DWDs*, may they live forever!!!!!!!!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
*Dirty Water Dogs
Some others have gone on about you should only use Fox's U-BET syrup. But I have a question, what is "thin" chocolate syrup.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have NO idea in all sincerity ... watered down? Supermarket swill? I've had decent results with Hershey's myself but it ain't authentic. I merely passed along a recipe I'd gotten from someone else since there's so many other folks who have mentioned how much they miss the "real thing" and figured Unca Fred needed some "get ready" so he can get into the "real thing" ... sorta like having Oscar Meyer hot dogs in preparation for Sabretts. :)
hehehe
My kids are still playing most of those games. Except not Stickball, and don't forget "Kick the Can" ...
--Mark
I've definitely seen kids playing hopscotch in Clinton Hill.
Jeez...I went into a Restoration Hardware, and as a "nostalgia" item, they were selling "SpalDEEEENS".
I may try a new survey: head into every Subway Sandwich place I know of, and ask them if they know what a BMT sandwich means.
>>>...if they know what a BMT sandwich means.<<<
According to their website it means "Big Meat Taste".
Peace,
ANDEE
If they had an IRT snadwich, would it stand fr, "It's Really Tasty"?
Yipe! I'd rather have a Blimpie (r)
Which is why they don't sell them at Subway... the Blimps only ran on the Pacific Electric :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ooch! Ow! There's "Subway shops" all around this area and frankly, I'd rather have a "Yankee Frankee" at 59 St ... or "Nedicks" ... when it came to IRT/IND/BMT food, that's why lunch was always a street doggie.
I'd like to see Subway offer a Lumbering Lardbucket sandwich.:-)
And here I was thinking they were made with wood chips from standards. Slap me. :)
When I go to a Subway restaurant, I like to suggest having an IND and an IRT to go with their BMT and seeing the reaction of everyone behind the counter. Usually they don't have the slightest idea of what I'm talking about. No surprise, especially in Denver. I've met a good number of people who have never even been to New York.
Heh. You should ask them if they have any R9 parts. :)
Me: "I'll have a spur-cut pinion gear, please"
Guy behind counter: "With mustard and mayo?"
Heh. Hold the mayo, I'll have a greasebag please. :)
How about a hotbox with oil & vinegar?
Ahem,
Yours truly is from Da Bronx originally. Grew up there, left in 1970, but still have friends there.
1) The subway IS fun (OK but maybe a few don't admit it).
2) Bronx girls are VERY desirable - maybe the problem is the Bronx Guy :0)
3) As for the rest? I admit, my friends in the Bronx didn't know where Queens was until I took them by the hand and escorted them onto the LIRR (LIRR? is that the train you can beat just by walking?)
Bronx pizza is the best - esp. Paula Pizza at 161 St near the Stadium.
>>>...Las PuertoRiqueno Grandmere made only on holidays?<<<
These are the originals, just like you describe. E-mail me and I can see about shipping arrangements.
Peace,
ANDEE
Phuck a duck ... you're not sheeting? Wowsers ... been up all night writing code and whipping the old willy ... will write in a minute or so but don't expect an answer until after the sun goes down. Some of us need our nappie. :)
Also Bay Ridge only has the slow, local R train, the most boring, dull line in the system. Along the Sea Beach is better, but would be really great if the line ran more often and the MTA would stop neglecting it. Still though, the N is much better than the R. The N should never have to ride the local and tunnel with the R.
Just for the record I am not Qtraindash7; I am Sea Beach Fred. QT7 writes his own posts but I'm sure some of you out there might even think it was me posing as him. Not so. But good going pal, you said it even better than I could. You going to be riding the Redbirds and Triplexes next week? If so, see you there.
You will reconize Fred by the Met Colored Baseball Cap saying #4Sea Beach Fred, and the N T Shirt, and the chatter. Sorry I could not make it, but see you all in October
October 13 is the big day. I can't wait!
And a light blue shirt with #4 Sea Beach Fred written across in jolly ollie orange. Keep a lookout guys because I will be at track one on the Times Square Shuttle on Sunday.
May God have pity on us if Pataki realizes his lifelong dream and eliminates rent control.
Rent Control does JACK SQUAT to make apartments cheaper. All it does is create a disincentive to maintain existing housing stock, forcing landlords to become slumlords. The market is the best place to set rents, not some ridiclulous board.
If you want a stable monthly payment, buy a condo or co-op. Rentals are for transients and 20-somethings.
Rent Control does JACK SQUAT to make apartments cheaper. All it does is create a disincentive to maintain existing housing stock, forcing landlords to become slumlords. The market is the best place to set rents, not some ridiclulous board.
Which, of course, has long since been realized by just about everyone outside NYC.
>>>The market is the best place to
set rents, not some ridiclulous board. <<<
If they got rid of rent control, the landlord would raise my rent a few hundred and I'd be out on my ear...
www.forgotten-ny.com
But then somebody would be willing to pay that much for the apartment, and you're just getting something for less than it's worth.
Price controls have been tried many times, they have always failed. Producers do not want to sell something if they cannot make the maximum profit on it, in which case they just bow out of the business, and shortages result.
Guess what there's a shortage of in New York?
Rent control *is* the reason why rents are so high.
Nobody has built any rental properties in more than 30 years.
Why? Because of rent control. Your landlord is not supposed to provide welfare for his tenants! The price of everything goes up, his rents can be raised. What the heck, his only choice is to abandon the property if he can.
Any new building built since the 70s had to be a CoOp or a condominium. You have to *buy* your apartment, and then pay a Monthly Maintenance Fee on top of that. When you see what those people are paying, (Mortgage + Maintenance) and that is the price you *SHOULD* be paying for a comprable appartment.
Rent control *may* (or may not) have had its place during world war two, but It was the death knell for a large part of the city when it continued beyond that time.
Elias
"The price of everything goes up, his rents can be raised. What the heck"...
What the heck... that *should* read "can't"
Somehow my keyboard has its onw ideas on what is or isn't fair.
Elias
uhm, it's no longer 1985. $900 for 3 rooms in a good neighborhood is not bad.
Let me see, for me theres 2. One is Stillwell Avenue in the Bronx. It's a quiet neighborhood near Westchester. It's only a few minute busride from Pelham Bay Park. My Second is Stillewll Avenue in Brooklyn. I just like being near Coney Island
Even though Coney Island has lost most of its charm over the past four decades or so I still refuse to call it seedy. I still love going there when I hit town. They have the Cyclone, my all time favorite ride that no other roller coaster, new or old, will ever replace, it has Nathan's where I can still get some good shrimp and scallops, it has Garguilo's good Italian food, and it now has the baseball Cyclones. I'm a kid again when I go there, and when I arrive Saturday morning I will check into my hotel and then take a train out to the place and ride the Cyclone. Oh yes, I can't ride the Sea Beach there. I have to go slumming and take either the Brighton or the West End. DAMN!@!!!!!!
Well, you can always take the Sea Beach a few stops to New Utrecht and catch the West End upstairs.
When exactly are you going to be in town? On weekdays this week and next (but not Memorial Day itself), between 10am and 2:30pm, the Stillwell-bound W is scheduled to run on the Sea Beach. Based on past experience, it's probably running on the express track from 59th to Stillwell nonstop, while the N makes local stops and terminates at 86th as usual. The W will even give you a ride over the bridge and on the express tracks in Manhattan. You won't get a railfan window, unfortunately, and the Manhattan-bound W runs on the West End, as usual.
I will be in town this Saturday through most of Tuesday and I will take you up on your suggestion. Are you going to be riding the Triplex on Monday next?
I want to say something smart assed about Fred but I can t. He is staying at The Milford laza Hotel on I think 45 and 8th, so wake him up
Say something smart assed about Fred? Now why would you want to do a thing like that?
New material for the Bob and Fred Show, perhaps?:-)
Bob: Fred staying at the Milford Plaza? You mean the Hotel Dixie closed now?
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I'm afraid I will be in Baltimore and/or Washington next Monday, so unless the Triplex takes a detour, no.
I don't have one, since I consider all of NYC outside of Manhattan to be occupied territory, therefore there is no such things as a "NYC neighborhood outside of Manhattan"
Go over to The Other Side of the Tracks and see what I put down as my location.
We have some people out here who sound a lot like you. Ever heard of Beverly Hills and San Marino? Good God Pig, let's not be a snob about it.
Also Arcadia
Ah Arcadia, home of the Santa Anits Race Track, the Arboretum, The Arcadia Mall, Arcadia High School and home of Sea Beach Fred. What could be finer?
All of those are independent cities, like the Brooklyn was before the occupation began 104 years ago.
Go over to The Other Side of the Tracks and see what I put down as my location.
lol.....yeah I know, I know: "Occupied Brooklyn"
In seriousness though, I wonder what would have happened if Brooklyn or Queens were never annexed to "the city". I do believe that Nassau was part of Queens 100 years ago. The current Nassau townships opted out of becoming part of NYC. Can you imagine if Nassau was part of NYC? I think Nassau developed nicer than Queens, so maybe it would have been better if it had never been annexed to NYC. But then you have the problem of things like the subway. You think it's bad now in Queens (too few lines)? I wonder if it would have been worse if Queens wasn't part of NYC.
As for Brooklyn, I think it lost it's whole identity by becoming part of NYC. Again I wonder if all the delapitation of Brooklyn would have happened if it would have remained it's own city. I really believe Brooklyn is the most interesting outer bourough architecually (oh sorry.....occupied bourough)....is that because a lot of the buildings were built before it became NYC? As it stands, I believe that Brooklyn, if still it's own city, would still be in the top 10 of the nations most populous cities.
Brooklyn has the Bridge, Coney Island, Prospect Park, and, if you will indulge me, the Sea Beach. But I believe Brooklyn lost its true identity and heart when the Dodgers left town after the 1957 baseball season. The Dodgers and Brooklyn were synonomous.
The unification of the city was driven by infrastructure needs. Back then, water was a major issue; mass transit was another. Brooklyn wanted better connections to Manhattan and vice versa.
Brooklyn was an important genuine city in its own right. A perhaps unintended consequence of the unification was an eclipse of place-ness. Once Seth Low of Brooklyn became Mayor of NEW YORK, who cares about Brooklyn? The political center moved away from Court Street over to the other side of the Brooklyn Bridge. Brooklyn lost its 'Brooklyn first-ness'.
My own private view is to dissolve the city, with each of the 5 boros becoming independent cities, leaving a number of infrastructure districts behind to manage the bridges, water, sewers, and especially, the subways. Watch the Nassau County Executive try to bypass the Mayors of Queens and Brooklyn when he tries to cut a deal with the Mayor of Manhattan about his constituent's complaints about the LIRR.
I'd close all city streets into/out of Nassau. Let them take the Belt or LIE.
But I believe Brooklyn lost its true identity and heart when the Dodgers left town after the 1957 baseball season. The Dodgers and Brooklyn were synonomous.
I think that was the "final" blow. Brooklyn began falling since it became a part of NYC, but it was straight downhill after the Dodgers left.
If NYC were broken into boroughs, here is what the top cities would become.
1) Los Angeles, Calif. 3,694,820
2) Chicago, Ill. 2,896,016
3) Brooklyn, NY. 2,465,326
4) Queens, NY. 2,229,379
5) Houston, Tex. 1,953,631
6) Manhattan, NY. 1,537,195
7) Philadelphia, Pa. 1,517,550
8) Bronx, Ny. 1,332,650
9) Phoenix, Ariz. 1,321,045
10) San Diego, Calif. 1,223,400
...
38) Albuquerque, N.M. 448,607
39) Staten Island 443,728
40) Kansas City, Mo 441,545
Personally though, I'm wondering when NYC is going to annex the burough of Miami. (pop. 362,470)
It's pretty ironic that both Brooklyn and Queens would beat out the "real" NY of Manhattan, if NY was to be broken up....
In addition it's amazing that 4 out of 5 of NY's parts would still be in the top ten even if NY was to be broken up. AND Brooklyn and Queens combined together would beat out both LA and Chicago individually! And those are big cities!
I seem to remember a sign from the credits of "Welcome Back Kotter" that stated: "WELCOME TO BROOKLYN, 4TH LARGEST CITY IN AMERICA Hon. Sebastian Lowe, President", you mean Brooklyns population has increased since the 70s or has Queens dropped?
Peace,
ANDEE
"Hon. Sebastian Lowe, President"
Brooklyn Borough President was Sebastian Leone.
Brooklyn had a population in the 1950's of 2,650,000. It then fell I guess and now it is moving back up thanks to yuppies and young couples moving in and improving the neighborhoods. What Brooklyn really needs is a professional sports team. That would give the borough real identity.
Flushing, Queens definately.The number 7 runs very frequently with peak hour expresses. Alot of Queens bus routes originate or go through Flushing. Shopping is abundant and cheap, especially if you like asian stuff (like I do). There's alot of new development in the area. Also the LIRR from Flushing is a quick alternative to the 7.
Just watch out for the dragon clips (sorry I couldn't help it!).
[Just watch out for the dragon clips (sorry I couldn't help it!).]
Hey, John. Since you like Flushing so much, have you ever considered moving there? A couple of SubTalkers either live in or near Flushing, BTW.
And there's also the Mets. Come on QT7, you're slipping a little.
Hey Fred, they took two of three from the Dodgers and three of four from the Padres. Shut out the Dodgers twice to boot.
And Steve I was there for the third game, a 2-0 win. John D'Amico pitched a hell of a game and Mo hit a dinger. Plus the Mets threw me a few balls during BP. A couple of pathetic Dodger fans even asked me to loan them my shirt and hat so they could pretend they were Mets fans. I laughed and told them kindly to take a hike.
and the Yankees are Hot
So are the Red Sox.:-)
That's OK; the last time they won a World Series was about the time my father was born.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. New Utrecht Ave about where 14th Ave crosses it, just far enough away from the el so that you have some privacy, but still close enough to hear and see the glorious rumbling of the West End line. I think this is Bensonhurst, maybe Boro Park.
Myrtle Ave would be an alternative, where Bushwick becomes Ridgewood. One of the side streets up or down from Jamaica Ave would also be satisfactory.
Of course, only us pervert railfans would WANT to live in a place overlooking an el.
All of my favorite neighborhoods are outside of Manhattan!
But since this is related to moving, you might want to try some up-an-coming 'hoods in Brooklyn like Prospect Heights, Sunset Park, or the more scenic Sheepshead Bay. Also, a new area is under construction right now called Gateway Estates just east of Starrett City, so you might want to investigate that as well.
Also depends on what type of dwelling your talking about: single-family detached, or semi-detached and/or an apartment?
Yeah Sunset Park is nice too, but the N train at 8th avenue doesn't come that often. :-(
Leaving monetary considerations aside:
I like Bayside, Little Neck, Maspeth, Glendale, Park Slope, Inwood, Vinegar Hill (Brooklyn), Riverdale, St. George, and Tottenville. All are along major transit routes.
Bay Ridge, where I spent 35 years, has slipped a bit, I'm afraid, but I still like it too.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, Maspeth and Glendale AREN'T along major transit routes. But I still like 'em.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bensonhurst,Brooklyn is pretty good. Its safe, the rent is not so expensive, plus you have the B,M,N,F trains within walking distance. But if you have a car, parking is pretty hard to find.
Excellent...Im looking for an apartment, i refuse to drive, and transit access is a MUST. I am looking at:
Sunset Park/Boro Park/Bensonhurst
Bay Ridge
Riverdale
and maybe some other places
Cobble Hill/Carrol Gardens are excellent neighborhoods. Quiet, friendly neighborhoods of brownstones, decent schools, excellent restaraunts and shopping. Parking isn't too bad and easy access to the BQE and the Brooklyn Bridge. You can even catch a yellow cab on Clinton Street any time of night. F train isn't my favorite, but it at least it usually rolls by frequently enough. Most apartments are a floor or two of someone's brownstone. Rents aren't terribly cheap, but it isn't the heights, either. If you look West on the other side of the BQE, or East of Hoyt, or South of Fourth Street, Rents are a bit lower, and the houses aren't quite as charming, but I don't think crime is a real problem until you are close to the Red Hook projects. Boreum Hill is worth looking at too.
Henry Street, President Street and where I was a toddler, Union Street. There is an Italian restaurant nearby that serves terrific linguine and clam sauce.
While the new trendy restaraunts have largly taken over the neighborhood (not that I'm complaining) there are still a good half-dozen great Italian restaraunts in the neighborhoods. Vinny's, Red Rose, Marco Pollo are the ones I can recall off the top of my head. Got to love the huge front yards on 2nd st, Carrol, President, and Union. For some reason people on Union aren't quite the gardeners as on the others (maybe because it is a heavier trafficked road). I think we have better eats than the heights now.
Keith Wright, eh? Wow! A non Italian living in that neighborhood. When I was a kid that area was all Italian. Good to know some of the other ethnic strains are moving into these former homogenous areas. It's still nice to have a distinctive ethnic neighborhood but 100% of it is not too cool the way I look at it. And since you like Italian food, we will just call you an honorary Dago. OK?
Carroll Gardens has majorly gentrified. Prices on the brownstones are starting to bob up over a million. It's a lot like Park Slope, though luckily the old-timers have not all been chased out. If it weren't for the projects, Red Hook would be falling to an onslaught of yuppies. I don't give it long regardless.
I very much doubt that the bulk of Red Hook will become heavily gentrified unless someone extends some decent public transportation there. Think how much fun it must be to wait for the B61 bus at night in the dead of winter with the kind of wind you only get on the waterfront. That said, if the gentrification results in some public transportation improvements, then by all means.
I don't think the projects are any kind of barrier to gentrification. There's projects a block away from Smith St. in Brooklyn, and that area is about as gentrified as you can get.
which neighborhood is the most "trainst frendly"..??
old town pasadena ca.""the posada"" will boast of GOLD LINE 2
downtown UNION STATION in a few years
Once upon a time (back in the '60's)
I went to Los Angeles by train from San Diego
(I was in the Navy)
I got off the train....
I looked around...
And I asked a cab driver, "WHERE's THE CITY?"
At least when someone gets off a train at NeW York Penn
there can be no question where the city is!
ELIAS
As far as your post goes, you are right. There is no comparison between New York and Los Angeles as far as a city is concerned. I'm glad you stopped there, though, because had you started making references to the rest of the Los Angeles Metropolitan area of beautiful sunny California, you would have started a feud. Glad you didn't. Therefore, I can say I agree with your statement as it stands.
"because had you started making references to the rest of the Los Angeles Metropolitan area of beautiful sunny California, you would have started a feud."
I never really got to see the beaches or much of anything else. I came up on a weekend pass, had no car, had no clues about getting around in LA, and was simply looking to find a downtown city to visit.
I drove up one other time with a bunc of sailors and we spent the day in Disneyland. but other than that, I have no ohter knowledge of LA, except to say "Waht City?" (And *that* was back in the '60s--- it would not suprise me if they will still growing cabbages on main street.)
Elias (Growing Mushrooms in un used subway tunnels)
I actually did spend a very fun car-free day in Los Angeles once...the only time I've ever been there in fact. I flew into LAX, and rode the bus to the Green Line light rail, rode that to the Blue Line to the Red Line subway. I rode the Wilshire Boulevard branch to its end and took bus further on Wilshire to the La Brea tar pits. The Los Angeles County Museum of Art is at the same park. I then rode the transit back downtown. If I'd had more time I would have checked out Little Tokyo and Pueblo de Los Angeles. I would have ridden the Angel's Flight, but it was closed when I was there. The next morning I took a train down the coast to San Diego. I got to ride Amtrak and San Diego's Coaster commuter train.
Mark
And where were these lines in the '60s?
Elias : )
Ripped up in the name of progress, of course!
Mark
Then Elias, you must come back again. We have beautiful mountains and beaches and some of the lovliest looking girls in the world. And now we have some great neighborhoods that are trendy with great restaurants and entertainment. Disneyland, Knott's Berry Farm, Magic Mountain, too.
That is if you can see more then 2 blocks in the smog
Bob, Bob, Bob, why don't you tape that comment of yours and mail it in. Today after showers we had sunny weather with some white puffy clouds and about 70 degrees. Very salubrious, like it always is out here.
wait a minute you could do that with the old pacific electric
system !! did you disbark at the downtown union station in
los angeles ??
The real question here is what do you want?
Nearby transit, I see - but it should be good transit on a good stable well served line.
what else is important though? do you care what sorta of people will be your neighbors? how long your commute will be? if there's someplace you can do laundry at 4AM if you work odd hours? and what is your price range for how much space?
it's all stuff to be considered.
for the most part, sunnyside is a pretty good place to be: why do you want to move out?
if possible, i say find a place to live that is close to 2 train lines. this way, if one is dead and has a GO, you can always just take the other. if you live way out at the end of a line, and there's some GO on it that sucks, you're about as screwed as it gets.
My favorite neighborhoods (plural):
Bayside-Oakland Gardens: 1,000 acres of beautiful parkland all around you. LIRR Port Washington Branch, Q12 and Springfield Blvd. bus service, QM1 Express Bus, within 15 minutes of Queens Village LIRR station on the main line.
Glen Oaks is nice and affordable but very boring (and the Q46 and N25 are your only links to civilization).
Bay Ridge (covered elsewhere in this thread).
Northern Bronx - IND and IRT service, lots of parkland, access to Lehmann College, access to Metro-North service.
Riverdale (Good Metro-North and bus service)
Will NJT be purchasing any new MU Cars anytime soon??
I think that may be a dead issue as the trend on NJT is toward locomotive propelled trains. MU cars are treated as locomotives by the FRA, and must be inspected and tested every number of days (blue card inspections). An eight cars trains of MUs there will be eight set of inspections. On a locomotive propelled train, only the locomotive gets inspected.
NJT is the only electric commuter railroad anywheer that has this FRA-inspection phobia of MU's. Even NICTD and Metr Electric buy and will continue to buy EMU's.
The last of the Arrow III's were delivered in 1978. Delivery of the Arrow III's began immediately after the Arrow II's were delivered, when the 3,000 V DC, was being converted into a more efficient AC electrification.
To this point, NJT has shown no more interest in Arrow MU's but it has been geared toward locomotive-hauled coaches.
During the Subtalk hiatus, there were some articles in the press about how certain people want to connect the Atlantic Branch up to the Cranberry tunnel (never mind the problems with fitting LIRR trains thru the tunnels, or where the trains would terminate). As I recall, it was estimated that this would accomodate about two-thirds fewer LI people than the Fulton St. IND presently serves, with the Brooklyn and Queens people left out in the cold to get into the city by other means. This was dubbed 'grand theft subway'.
Who are these jokers? I have heard of some genuinely moronic proposals, but this one takes the cake. What's next: converting the Lex to an automobile expressway for Westchester commuters?
[During the Subtalk hiatus, there were some articles in the press about how certain people want to connect the Atlantic Branch up to the Cranberry tunnel (never mind the problems with fitting LIRR trains thru the tunnels, or where the trains would terminate). As I recall, it was estimated that this would accomodate about two-thirds fewer LI people than the Fulton St. IND presently serves, with the Brooklyn and Queens people left out in the cold to get into the city by other means. This was dubbed 'grand theft subway'.]
Aside from the drawbacks that Mark already mentioned, there's also the bigger picture: We NYC residents already oversubsidize the rest of the state through (1) our income taxes; (2) the loss of the non-resident income (or "commuter") tax; and (3) disparate transit subsidies. NOW we're being told to give up our subway system to wealthy Long Islanders?! No!!!
I say we should fight to keep our subways!! Join the resistance!! Down with suburban oppression of city-dwellers!!
;-)
How does the NYC income tax subsidise the rest of NYS? By the way, I'd gladly trade my LI property taxes for NYC's income tax!!!
[How does the NYC income tax subsidise the rest of NYS?]
Very simply: We pay far more in state taxes than we get back in state funding for services such as schools, police, sanitation, transportation, etc. In other words, we pay our own fair share PLUS part of everybody else's share - always have, always will.
On top of that, we pay an extra quarter-percent sales tax which, by law, is supposed to be set aside for public transportation. However, Governor George started raiding NYC Transit's portion of the sales tax in 1995 (thus forcing the $1.50 fare) to punish the city for not voting for him in the 1994 election, and still refuses to release them.
["What's next: converting the Lex to an automobile expressway for Westchester commuters?"]
That WOULD alleviate some of the traffic on the FDR and the Avenues.
It is a stupid proposal that will never happen. Converting the A/C Cranberry line to LIRR would require tunnel changes, signal changes, track changes and would probably cost more than building a new tunnel.
Personally I think LIRR to GCT is way more important than Lower Manhattan access as the subways from Atlantic avenue (1,2,4,5,N,R,B,Q,M) are quite enough to handle.
Besides LIRR access to GCT is already planned for, the tunnels are there for the most part.
I even wrote to Manhattan Borough President Virginia Fields, telling her that the proposed takeover of the 8th Ave. subway route by the LIRR was not going to happen because the LIRR cars would not fit in the tunnels, that there was already a tunnel built specifically for the LIRR across the East River ( the lower level of the 63rd St. tunnel ), and that the FRA would not allow the LIRR and the subway to be in such close proximity for safety reasons. I also suggested that she take a look at the plans for the IND Second system, since there could be something there to improve service for her constituents in the long run. Yes, that is a long shot, but the 1969 METS were a surprise to everybody when they won the pennant.
Ah yes, the '69 Mets. I remember them well. Talk about NYC going bananas when they won it all....
Today at about 7:00Pm i was walking on Glenwood Road and when i got ot E 98 st i look over into Canarise Yard and Saw 2 R143 Cars # 8101-09 & # 8121-32 sitting side By sidethey are Going on Tomorrow on Monday Service
We also saw a trainset alongside the fence, ordered as followed (north motor first) 8116-8115-8114-8113-8109-8110-8111-8112
and alongside it (north motor first) 8108-8107-8106-8105, could not see what the other four cars were.
AND in East New York Yard, 8117-8118-8119-8120 was seen sitting among the R40Ms and R42s.
wayne
8108-8107-8106-8105 were 4 out of the first 8 MU's to debut on the L. this means that the original train isn't in service. Where are 8101 thru 8104?
Maybe it was layed up for the day/weekend. Im sure itll be out and running soon.
I did rode the original train lead car #8104-#8101/#8105-#8108 end car this past thursday heading home.
Peace
David
Those were probably the four cars I couldn't see the numbers of. I could only see the rooftops.
wayne
It seems that the HEIGHT= and WIDTH= tags on the banner are incorrect, resulting in the whole page shifting downwards when you go back and forth with the arrows or with a click thru link. Can this be fixed?
Another idea for saving bandwidth on the subtalk main page -- if you remove the graphic, and simply altered the script to show only the first msg in a thread (a la NYCrail), you will save a lot of bandwidth in $$$
Alicia
Another idea for saving bandwidth on the subtalk main page -- if you remove the graphic, and simply altered the script to show only the first msg in a thread (a la NYCrail), you will save a lot of bandwidth in $$$
Switch to compressed listing style, because that is what you describe.
I fixed the height/width tags.
As for the graphic, I don't think it's really necessary to remove it-- it "brands" the site, someone spent a lot of time making it, it looks nice, and once you've seen it once you've cached it anyway. I
According to SEPTA's website, the Market-Frankford Line in West Philly is going to continue using shuttle buses in place of trains on weekends at least through the end of next month, with no service at all on Memorial Day weekend. Does anyone know if or when regular weekend El service will resume in West Philly? Before the construction started on the West Philly El, I heard or read somewhere that the bulk of the construction was going to take place at night, thus avoiding service interuptions. Since I visit my friends in West Philly on weekends, I find the El shutdown a major inconvenience. As a result, I've been driving to West Philly to see my friends. I don't mind driving, in fact, I've driven to my friends' a few times when the trains were running on weekends, but I prefer taking the train most of the time.
Cars 6471-75 and 6496-6500 have arrived at East 180th St as of this morning.
This means that nearly all of the cars that have been in dead storage for the last year have now been repaired and will make their debut in service at some future time.
Of the cars that still need to be modified, this leaves Cars 6441-6460 and 6491-95, which are unaccounted for.
-Stef
These trains are now testing for service:
6361-65 and 6436-40
6366-70 and 6376-80
6371-75 and 6386-90
6381-85 and 6396-6400
These 4 Trains are testing for #5 Service.
-Stef
Isn't the 6396 set the one that doesn't have the black on the cab car?
Nope. It is 6395.
Does anyone know why it's missing it?
A set with 6348 in it was testing today on the downtown express on the 7th ave line. I saw it do sim stops at 42st except the 5 on the Uptown Express was blocking it and I only saw 6348.
That train is in revenue service, but they could be doing something with it.... The question is what? Testing modified brakes perhaps?
-Stef
That would be 6341-50. And yes Stef you are correct, that train is in revenue service but Ill believe they are testing the regenerative brake cut-out on that train. It was road testing yesterday as it headed into President southbound.
Hi all!! I need some help...I just moved to Park Slope this weekend and i'm trying to figure out what is the closest subway station to me. My apartment is located on 19th Street (between 5th & 6th Ave.). I went for a walk this afternoon and I saw the Prospect Avenue station for the N, R, & M. However, this station is a pretty good distance from my apartment. Does the F stop anywhere near me? I was looking at the subway map and saw that the F stops at 15th street and 7th Avenue. I didn't try and find these stations during my walk though. Are any of these two stops on the F any closer to me? or is Prospect Ave station on the N & R my best bet? Thanks to anyone who can help me out.
The closest station to you is indeed Prospect Av on the M/N/R lines.
The closest F stations to you are at 15th St and Prospect Park West (equivalent to 9th Av in Park Slope), and on 9th Street at either 7th Avenue or 4th Avenue.
Don't be afraid to use the buses {not to get off topic with rail talk.} If you don't need to take a bus after you get off the subway wherever you are going then take the B63 or B67 {B63 is more frequent} to a major stop like Atlantic Ave/Pacific St. Otherwise you have to walk to one of the stations you mentioned. I know very well the area in which you are. If you live near 4th or 7th Aves you have the subway right there, but you are right in the middle and that's why they supply you with the B63, which takes you to a major subway complex at Atlantic.
Walk downhill to the BMT, then walk downhill from the IND on the way back.
Gravity is your friend!
The R weekend service is the most atrocious I can remember, and that's over 40 years of remembering.
There is no through service to 95th Street...you have to wait for a shuttle at 59th Street. Of course there is only ONE trainset on the shuttle and if you just missed a shuttle? 20 minute wait.
Is there any hope of restored weekend service soon, or is this going to morph into a permanent affair?
MTA's message to Bay Ridgeites:
"Buy a car"
www.forgotten-ny.com
SB N trains are operating over the bridge. I guess someone noticed a few months ago that there was no need for N, Q, and R trains to all run over the bridge, so recent incantations of that GO have had the R cut into two pieces. Not that that's any consolation to those who have to use those two pieces! And R service would certainly be helpful NB, particularly through the tunnel, which now has one quarter the service it should have.
This was all posted online in advance, BTW. Well, except that the R shuttle would be a single train.
what is the N like on saturday ???
Well the N during the day Saturday and into the evening goes pretty much regular service, serving City Hall, Rector, Whitehall, and all stops to Kings Highway and 86th Street in Brooklyn. Though late at night, from time to time due to trackwork (G.O.s), they would be rerouted over the Manhattan Bridge (usually one way, i.e. Manhattan-bound still operates via the Montague Tunnel, serving all stops downtown, while Brooklyn-bounds may go over the bridge, and vice versa). The Rs operate in 2 sections, shuttles from 59th-4th Ave Brooklyn to Bay Ridge-95th, and Canal St to 71-Continental Ave. (After discharging at Canal the Rs relay just north of City Hall Yard).
If they cut the W back to 36th St. from Pacific, they could run the R shuttle much more frequently.
How would that help? It is the single tracking that makes it slow combined with the fact that the N an R have to crossover a switch and for the R that whole area is slow speed plus the speed restriction of single tracking.
It is possible to do 15 minutes if you make a point of NOT making connenction between the N and R (something ingrained in Murphy tower)and spend almost no time in the terminal not even the one minute before departure. They shouldn't even make the C/r change position to save a few more seconds. As they say every second counts.
The R shuttle could use the junction north of 36th St. to turn trains if the espress tracks weren't blocked by W trains coming from Pacific St. You can only cross over from north to south above Pacific on the express tracks.
Turning the W at 36th St. allows the R train to run more than a single track shuttle.
They did something like that for another GO. For at least one of the GOs there was work south of 59 making you stuck with the single track.
The W isn't running this weekend at all. The Q is running on the West End.
I don't know if all trains were doing this, but both Q trains I rode (one in each direction) ran local on 4th Avenue. (The express tracks weren't taped off, though.) That would seem to give the R the option of relaying north of 36th.
Then I can't explain why they limited the R shuttle to one track/one train from 59th to 95th, unless the switches north of 36th St. were not available for use.
To me,there's no doubt this is gonna go on for a very long time.the reason? they are doing work at Dekalb Ave.they could also be doing something at cortlandt St to prepare it for its reopening.so untill its all set and done,expect this to continue.although i agree its ridiculous.if the W is not gonna run,they should have the R run from Pacific St-95th St instead of to 59th st.although if you dont wanna wait for 20mins for the shuttle to come back,go up to the street and take the B63 bus,you'll get to where you wanna go long before the shutlle makes it back to 59th st.and the B63 is detoured over 4th from 60th to 95th so its no big deal
When the Acela hit 168 Mph, where was this done at and what trainset was it?
It was done on the Pueblo, CO test track. My guess is that test trainset one (2000, 3402, 3502, 3503, 3500, 3505, 3400, 2002) was the one that did it.
You are right.
Chaohwa
Jeez, that's only 4 mph faster than the 1968 Metroliners. Think they could have done better in 20 years. The Metroliners also hit that speed on the NEC, not some lousey test track.
Well. You get speed by dropping weight, which raises the critical speed of the trucks up. High weight = lower critical speed = lower top speed. Since you can't run at speed with unstable trucks, you need to be able to have a stable truck. Physics dictates that the higher the weight, the lower the speed at which the truck becomes unstable is. There's no way around this, it happens with *everything* in the world (which explains in part why my bike, at 600lbs starts to lose it's stability at 100mph, whereas a crotchrocket, despite a much steeper rake, is still stable at that speed). Easiest way to make the acela run faster is to drop 20,000 lbs per car. Then you'd be able to safely sustain much higher speeds. It's that simple. unless the acela goes on a diet, you won't see faster than 150mph speeds with it in service.
It's interesting to note, the TGV, with a considerably lighter carbody design, is stable to speeds of well over 200mph, without the need for any yaw dampers.
I'm curious as to if the Acela can even sustain 150mph contnuously, or if it reaches into the short time overloads on the locos. Or what effect a mild (2%) grade would do to the cars at that speed. I suspect it's stretching it, and that's part of the reason speeds below NY are still so slow.
Ok Why would the Acela not be able to sustain 150 mph, isn't that what the Train is Made for. It has TGV Pupulsion system which allows those speeds.
Phil, for once your post makes you sound like you know what you are talking about. I am humbled by your expertise.
I share your concern that the Acela is too heavy. However, I believe truck stability is a complex issue where weight is only a part of the equation. Am I correct in thinking that the issue is one of the center of gravity rather than weight?
Let's take an example. HAA hoppers (two-axle, 50-tonne coal wagons) as used by EWS in England are stable at 45mph when not loaded, but are stable at 60mph when loaded. The additional weight anchors down the wheels and prevents any slight deviation from the ideal track geometry from lifting the car off the track. By loading up the HAA, in fact center of gravity is raised, but obviously the effect of having a heavy axle load is balanced by the effect of the raised center of gravity. (i.e. lift-off versus spin-off types of derailment risks).
I believe the reason the Acela can't go fast isn't due to its truck stability. If its trucks are unstable or poorly riding, that is because the truck manufacturers didn't design them that well. They had this issue with the GNER Mk.IV's operating in England today. SiG (an Italian firm) designed the trucks. I suspect the reason Acela can't get much faster than about 160mph even when driven hard is because it's simply too much weight to be pushed around; the motors are maxed out.
Question: Did they have to electrify the test track at Pubelo? If so, at what voltage and how long was the test track?
Alicia
I share your concern that the Acela is too heavy. However, I believe truck stability is a complex issue where weight is only a part of the equation. Am I correct in thinking that the issue is one of the center of gravity rather than weight?
It's a lot of factors, and truck dynamics aren't totally understood anyway, IIRC. Wheelbase of the truck affects it, spring setups do, weight does, truck location, truck type, unsprung weight.
The TGV's second most distinguishing feature is that the traction motors are body mounted, thus the unsprung weight of power trucks is quite low.
Let's take an example. HAA hoppers (two-axle, 50-tonne coal wagons) as used by EWS in England are stable at 45mph when not loaded, but are stable at 60mph when loaded. The additional weight anchors down the wheels and prevents any slight deviation from the ideal track geometry from lifting the car off the track.
Partly, because I'm, willing to bet, the springs are designed for loaded cars, than unloaded ones. They're likely too 'hard' for unloaded cars, and this isn't surprising when you consider the weight difference between load and no load.
By loading up the HAA, in fact center of gravity is raised, but obviously the effect of having a heavy axle load is balanced by the effect of the raised center of gravity. (i.e. lift-off versus spin-off types of derailment risks).
It goes up. If it goes too high, i.e. surperliners, etc, it gets tipsy too. Generally, low c.o.g. is a good thing, though too low can cause problems. part of why the talgo is able to curve at high speeds safely is the lower c.o.g. compared with other types.
I believe the reason the Acela can't go fast isn't due to its truck stability. If its trucks are unstable or poorly riding, that is because the truck manufacturers didn't design them that well.
One can only make a truck do so much! I'm dissapointed that the Acela's trucks aren't radial types, as they proved to be very good in the X-2000 tests. Also, traditionally, French RR cars have not taken to US track very well..... The French loco tests on Amtrak went poorly, and IIRC, the RTLs had issues too.
They had this issue with the GNER Mk.IV's operating in England today. SiG (an Italian firm) designed the trucks. I suspect the reason Acela can't get much faster than about 160mph even when driven hard is because it's simply too much weight to be pushed around; the motors are maxed out.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if 150mph running cuts into the Acela's 1 hour limit at least under certain conditions. I bet the acela could't maintain 150mph on a typical LGV, with the 3% and 4% grades and all. Though it wouldn't be allowed to run on one anyway.
Question: Did they have to electrify the test track at Pubelo? If so, at what voltage and how long was the test track?
The track has long been electric, I believe they can supply any voltage/frequency they want to it.
Quoting from the Transportation Technology Center's website, which operates the 13.5 mile Railroad Test Track: "The RTT's catenary system can deliver a single-phase, 60 Hz alternating current at 12.5, 25, or 50 kV, in a single or dual voltage condition. The contact wire height is currently set a nominal 22 feet, 6 inch height, but can be adjusted to simulate tunnel or bridge conditions. It is also possible to energize the system with DC power."
In addition, they have a 9.1 mile transit track with third rail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The News has a story today in which he is quoted as saying in a company brochure that the company's subway cars "don't break down" and that they "last a long time and they're easy to maintain."
The story sounds like the two other companies seeking the R-160 contract, Bombardier and Alstom, are trying to help scuttle someone they believe is leaning towards Kawaski (based on the R-142 deliveries so far on the 6 versus the 2 and the 5, it seems like Hoffman has reality on his side).
The story then goes on to say on the R-160 lobbying front:
Alstom has hired former Sen. Al D'Amato, Pataki's political patron. Bombardier is being advised by Pataki's former law partner, William Plunkett. Kawasaki is working with former state GOP chairman William Powers, who helped steer Pataki's 1994 and 1998 campaigns.
Of course, the story doesn't say when the bid will be awarded -- if it's after Jan. 1, then you could have Cuomo or McCall in there and a new MTA chairman (which would mean all three companies would have to go out and hire Democratic lobbyists, of course). Anyway, it should make for an interesting time until the final decision is made.
Here you have a public official who actually wants to provide a public service by getting the best subway car, rather than awarding public dollars to whoever makes the most campaign contributions. And he is undermined and criticized by politicians. This just shows the conditions quality public managers must work in. And why there are so few of them.
We just had delivery of new cars. The Kawasakis outperformed the Bombardiers. That's all that should matter.
The good news is that if the R-160 contract is big enough to be worth a lot of lobbying, there will finally come a nice expansion of the subway fleet!
Click here.
-Robert King
Don't be stupid, be a smartie, come and join the Nazi party!
Mel Brook's only line in The Producers.
Ick!! A BUS!!!
Click here.
-Robert King
Is that Toronto?
Definitely.
I didn't think it was Branford.
Unfortunately, no trolley museum has that kind of complicated track intersection for streetcars to drive over. It's really one of the most interesting pieces of urban streetcar systems, especially to ride over, that can't be reproduced at a museum without huge expenses etc...
-Robert King
Definitely. Actually, that's one thing I neglected to mention in the new pictures thread I just posted is another difference between 4149's Guinness adwrap and 4052's are the TTC logos. The one on 4149 is tiny and hidden way down there while 4052's is huge but properly centred on that pannel. The picture here of 4134 beside the Upper Canada Breweries truck is quite by accident. At the time I was annoyed about the truck cluttering the background but now it's kind of cute to have the streetcar posed with 'the competition'...
Enjoy the pictures!
-Robert King
I prefer a Sam Adams on draft, but what the hey!
;-D
Robert, I see you found a way against the remote loading rules of free webpages. Just put the image on a webpage and have the image take up most of the page.
Recently I was informed that a pair of M-7s is now on the property at Hillside Maintenance Complex. Is there anyone here who may work for the LIRR who can confirm this?
I don't work for the LIRR, but a friend of mine does. He told me that they are inside Hillslide Facility where all the LIRR big shots were probably gawking, inspecting and sniffing every inch of the trainset.
They were given a "tour" of the electried territory bracketed by two DM-30's for clearance testing. They also shown their new faces in the bowels of Penn Station, but not sure if they went to Flatbush Ave. Not sure if those diesels are restricted from the "el".
They'll stay put until more trainsets arrive then they can be run MU so they won't gap out. Stay tuned to this board. If more M-7's show, you'll hear it here soon enough.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hmm! I was wondering if the DM's are restricted from the Atlantic Branch. Actually, the answer is yes. DM's are restricted along with the others west of Dunton. The only diesel that can run there is the SW1001's which are shorter than the MP15's, and has far lesser weight.
IIRC, weight isn't the issue - it's size. The DM's are simply too big to fit. Supposedly, the El on the Flatbush line was built to support the weight of freight and locos, as there were plans to use the street level of FBA as a freight termial at one time...
The LIRR blew it, IMHO with the DE/DMs. They're big, overweight, unreliable, and can't go everywhere in the system. Commet cars and rebuilt units, like NJT has, would have done the same job for a fraction of the cost.
Which part of the Atlantic Branch are you referring to?
So the LIRR has begun installation of square wheels?
-Hank
Thanks for the good word :-)
Recently while working an RDO/overtime on the Q Express out of Brighton Beach I spotted North Division R-40s on the Q Express (the North Div. 40s are the 4400s). I have also seen a few showing up on the N line. I guess with the R-143s coming on the railroad in the North, I see now where the slants of the North will be heading. Does anyone know where the R-40Ms and 42s are going to be heading when the R-143s start becoming the regular on the L? I heard rumor they too may be heading to the South.
You mean Eastern division
the only #4400's that i have seen on the "N" and "Q" are these:
4400-4401
4402-4403
4415-4416
4404-4405
would be nice to see more though.
Add #4398-4399 and 4408-4409 to that list.
wayne
If the R-143s start being accepted into the system, then count on seeing more of the slants.
Probably down to the Southern Divison too. They are probably most familiar with the equipment. R40, R40M, R42 are alike and Coney Island has R40Ms/R42s from the M Line housed there most of the time too. So with the addition of R4xx trains from East New York, they can send some R68s to Concourse or R32s to Jamaica, Pitkin, and 207th.
:( ... bye bye R32...
Doesn't Concourse already have enough R68's which already have 224 of them? I would see the R-32's gone, but not the R-68's from Coney Island.
Actually, I meant has them. Sorry for my bad english!
I wouldn't be so quick to doom the R32. This is all part of the ripple effect caused by the ADD-TO R143 order. The R32 has taken up partial residence on the "R" and even on the "F" lately.
wayen
The R-32's aren't vanishing from the overall subway fleet, but it seems fairly likely they'll be gone from Coney Island in the near future, displaced by the R-40/R-40M/R-42 influx from ENY. I'll miss them, although I don't find them quite as railfan-friendly as others since there's nothing for the second arrival at the window to hold onto. (R-40's aren't much better, but at least there's the emergency brake niche. Just make sure you're holding onto the niche and not the brake cord itself, or your railfanning trip will come to a very abrupt halt.)
Why is it that on A division cars, the emergency brake is in a box, but in B division cars, the cord's exposed dangling?
Some years ago there was a high incidence of cord pulling on A division. I suspect it was people getting bounced around in over crowded cars and grasping for anything and accidentally grabbing the cord. The TAs response was to put those little boxes over the emergency cords. I recall them saying at the time it would be done to all cars. Don't know why they stopped.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's also presumed that people will be less likely to pull cords as pranks if the cords are in the boxes, the opening of which sounds a loud alarm. Whether that actually makes a difference is another matter.
It was also the practice of pickpocket teams to pull the cords on crowded trains, then walk through the packed trains as they waited to recharge, helping themselves to whatever wallets they could swipe.
Here ya go...
http://www.panix.com/~danielc/nyc/pullcord.htm
Why not throw some R-32 to J M Z Lines.
I hate answering a question with a question, but:
TO A PASSENGER, what is the difference between a slant R-40 and a R-32? Yes, I know the R-32 has 6 more seats (if people don't slop over), but other than that, to the average (non-railfan) passenger, they're the same car. They show up, they get you there, they're air conditioned, and they've got the same color scheme inside (except the floors on the refloored R-32s).
David
TO A PASSENGER, what is the difference between a slant R-40 and a R-32? Yes, I know the R-32 has 6 more seats (if people don't slop over), but other than that, to the average (non-railfan) passenger, they're the same car. They show up, they get you there, they're air conditioned, and they've got the same color scheme inside (except the floors on the refloored R-32s).
You are right. Your average rider doesn't realize/care that there are different cars. Even if a R46 rode down the JMZ lines, a small few passengers may do a double-take, but then just sit down and get on with their day and not give it a second thought. Aside from different floors, I don't think MOST of the passengers would really even glance up wheather it be an R32, 38, 40, or 42 rode into their station. Most riders (non-subfans) could tell the difference. I don't think many people look at the trains that closely.
Now for a railfan on the otherhand....any deviation from the norm is cool.
Most riders (non-subfans) could tell the difference. I don't think many people look at the trains that closely.
I meant most riders couldn't tell the difference.
Agreed. This past weekend, with no 3 service and 5 trains running express on the West Side, people thought the 5 Redbirds were 3 trains, even though the 3 hasn't run anything but R-62A's for about 15 years.
R-40s have those ass-flattening seats. I'd take an R-32 over them any day, for sitting down purposes.
The R40's have the worst seats! Every so often there is a R40M mixed in with the R42's on the J and M (or L). You can notice the minute you sit down on the train that you have an uncomfortable R40, if you didn't notice on the outside of the train. The 42's seats are no prize either, but they are better than the 40's
I don't think the R-42 seats are shaped any differently from the R-26/28/29/32/33/36/38 seats.
I don't know which I find less comfortable, the R-40/40M seats or the R-142/142A/143 seats.
The R42 seats have the same posterior-accomodating curvature as those on R26 through 38s, although the backs are very short, just as they were with the R40s.
If you're of age, you remember the refurbushed fiberglass seats of the R10s through 26s. These models originally had upholstered foam seats that were replaced around the early sixties due to vandalism. The back was ramrod straight and at a precise ninety-degree angle to the horizontal part, which itself was slightly curved on the 10s, but flat as a pancake everywhere else. There was usually a gap leaving about three inches of wall between the two separate sections.
At least most mainline IRT trains in the sixties and seventies were mixed consists, so if those seats made you too uncomfortable, you just had to go to a car on the train that was an R26 through 36. Of course, no such luxury was available on the 10s and 16s.
THe seats in the R40's are very flat and short:
The R42's are more curved, but short like the R40's, so not as comfortable as the preR40 cars:
Some of us (the shorter ones, probably) don't find the short backs any less comfortable than the tall backs.
In any case, to complete the comparison, here are an R-32 and an R-36.
Some of us (the shorter ones, probably) don't find the short backs any less comfortable than the tall backs.
lol...I'm fairly tall, so I guess that is why the 42's bother me a bit, but I think everyone finds the 40's uncomfortable....
By the way I notice on your R32 photo seats they replaced part of the seat with the seat of an unrebuilt car. They must have a bunch of them lying around. I remember when the seats were that green-aqua color before they were rebuilt. I think the R38, 40, and 42 were also that color.
That's exactly why I took that picture.
See also another example on a different R-32 car (I identify it as blue this time but it's the same color) and a red Redbird seat.
I'm surprised that you commented on the R-32 seat but not on the much more obvious peculiarity on the R-36. Here it is again. (I'm afraid this car currently resides in the TA's new subaqueous yard.)
and a red Redbird seat.
Ah yes, that pinkish-red seat. I remember them very well on the redbirds, and the R27-30's also had those pinkish seats (although half the time they were covered with graffiti...
I'm surprised that you commented on the R-32 seat but not on the much more obvious peculiarity on the R-36. Here it is again.
That whole car gives me a headache! Is that the only car like that?
It was the only car like that. A very poorly done job; it's only interesting because of its uniqueness.
Of course, the seats of the R-44, R-46, R-68, and R-68A cars are much more comfortable than those currently on the other cars!
- Lyle Goldman
There I must disagree with you. Aside from size problems (they're too narrow for many and too wide for some), I find myself in mild pain after sitting in them for a long time.
The contour on the R-26/28/29/32/33/36/38/42 seat is just perfect.
Of course, the seats of the R-44, R-46, R-68, and R-68A cars are much more comfortable than those currently on the other cars
I really don't know if I like those seats are not. They are comfortable in a way, but I have been on trains and some fourth person idiot tries to squeeze between three people in a section that is only meant for three. By the same token, I hate being squeezed on the long flat bench seating also, and there it happens way more often because who's to say the "bench seating" is meant for 7 or even 10 people. As long as there is an inch of room people try to squeeze in.
Also I don't know if I like the long bench seating better or the alternating seating. Sometimes I'd rather stand than have to crawl over someone to get to the empty, but blocked window seats on the R46 type seating.
Sometimes I like the long seating, and sometimes I like the alternating seating. it depends on the mood I'm in I guess.
I prefer the alternating seating if the train is almost empty. If it's moderately crowded, the all-sideways seating is better since I don't like climbing into or out of the window seat. Trains with alternating seating don't handle large crowds well; they reduce standing capacity and they encourage clumping by the doors.
Alternate seating is great if you get one by the window that faces front, especially when the train goes outside. It doesn't make up for the lack of a railfan window, but it's all you get.
What's bad about alternate seating is people who sit in the aisle seat and leave the window seat vacant, or put all their junk on it. When asked to relinquish the vacant window seat, they'll sometimes let you in, or slide over so you can have the aisle seat. But more often than not, they play deaf- or react with righteous indignation, as if they're being panhandled.
I've witnessed numerous loud arguments provoked by this situation- which is also inherent on buses.
That's the problem with the window seats. You can enter a fairly empty train and sit there and by the time you get off you have to crawl over people who give you a dirty look because you have the nerve to get off at your station! I only sit there if the train is fairly empty. I don't like crawling over people to get that seat if it is avaialble when the train is more full....I rather just stand in the doorway.
I was quite annoyed when the TA decided to place only longitudinal seats in the R-143 cars and the add-on orders. The old IND cars had the same dimensions with more seats. I recall some BMT cars had an isolated 3+2 seat near a car end. However, I also recall that when car 1575 was refitted about 1947, the designer made a big deal about chewing elbow room out of the side wall (putting the window drop on the outside) so that the crosswise seats could be shoved an inch or two out of the aisle. Despite the TA's claims, I still think a 60' B-Division car with the R-9 seating pattern would hold as many total riders as (say) an R-32. On Division B 60-foot equipment, the lack of convenient hand-holds leaves the space between longitudial rows insuffiently used.
Amen to that! Many time I'd sit down on a Slant and I'd find myself sliding right off. Same deal with the R40M. BTW those are the original seats, just painted charcoal grey.
wayne
The R42 seats have a curve thats more uncomfortable than the mini seats on the R62s.
Ya know, befoe all this car shuffling takes place, I'd like to see the TA restore some of the J/Z service cuts which I've had to endure throughout the late 90's. With more cars a-comin', is asking for 8 J/8 Z trains per hour asking too much?
A 25% increase in service on the J? Yeah, I'd say that's a bit much to ask.
Why? It's simply a resumption of service which once existed pre 1995.
it would be nice to see some R42 appear on the "Q" diamond route. That only happened when the Williamsburg bridge was closed for repairs. If the "Q" diamond is getting the #4400's series, lets hope the windows are in better shape than the #4100s,#4200s and #4300s-less scratches on windows would be nice.
They did that in 1999 when the Williamsburg Bridge closed where R-42's returned to the then 6th Ave./Brighton Express Q. I am sure that the N will get those first, then the Q diamond.
When the Z operates during the height of the rush, there is a combined J/Z 5 minute headway. Since the overwelming majority of the J/Z station stairways are positioned at the first or last cars, there is a perception of crowded trains. Actually, the middle cars are underutilized while the first 2 and last 2 cars are generally crowded.
The J/k may not be the most crowded lines in the system, but as a former regular rider they were far from empty or underutilized, and that goes for the M also (north of the Montague tunnel). During the day they are not quite as crowded, but tell that to the jammed rush hour riders.
That was supposed to say J/Z....I don't know where the K came from in my post.
I did not say the J/Z trains were underutilized. I said that on a given train the first 2 and last 2 cars are overutilized and the middle 4 cars were underutilized. If passengers were spread throughout the entire train rather than all squeezed into the cars by the stairways, the comfort level for all passengers would improve.
Oh, I read your post wrong, I understand what you are saying now......
Yes, we saw a number of ex-ENY (Eastern Division) Slants on the "N" and Circle "Q" yesterday, highest number seen was 4414-4415.
wayne
Circle Q? I thought the Circle Q is supposed to be exclusively R68's with some R68A's mixed in.
Not yesterday! Circle "Q" via "W" was FULL of Slants, AND when we got to CI we saw lots of sleeping R68s and R68As. See post #331930 for a sampling of some R40 numbers I spotted out there. Some of the 4400s were among them.
wayne
There is nothing in writing that says the local Q has to be 68's. You do get a slant on it from time to time. I have seen it at least once a month.
I believe only the V has something in writing that says it has to be 100% R46 so people would ride it.
"I believe only the V has something in writing that says it has to be 100% R46 so people would ride it."
People may prefer the R46, but I find it hard to believe they alone will attract more riders to it.
The R46 seat layout is what the public likes. If Jamaica had 68's then the V would be 100% 68's.
If Jamaica had 68's then the V would be 100% 68's
...which would be preferable, I'd say. If the idea was to make the (V) look like an attractive "new" line, then the R68 or R68A is a better choice on both counts. Not gorgeous, but better looking than the R46.
:-) Andrew
I understand that, but I'm not sure that fact will attract any more riders than if the line was made up completely of R32's.
If I serve Correct isn't the M-7's also supposed to be going to the Metro North? Will the M-7's go to New Haven, CT? That means they have to install pantographs for them.
1- yes, to replace the ACMUs (i think thats what they're called)
2- no, the M2s will stay for a while... (rebuilding to be done)
If they were modified for new haven they would be called the M8s or M10s
This may be a silly question, but why did you exclude M9? Is there a logic to the numbering sequence? IE, Odd numbers have a meaning as od evens?
Bill
Even = new haven
Odd = other line using "Metropolitan Commuter" type cars
M7 contract does not state a requirement for overhead 11,000/25,000 Volts AC collection.
>>Will the M-7's go to New Haven, CT? That means they have to install pantographs for them<<
Installing pantographs of M-7's isn't easy as it sounds. The carbody has to support the weight of the pantograph. There also is the electrical wiring and aparatus involved. If the New Haven Division opts for new cars, they'll probably be called M-8's. All New Haven equipment are even numbered (M-2, M-4, M-6). BTW, there is no M-5.
The LIRR and MNRR equipment are odd numbered (M-1, M-1A, M-3, M-3A)and now M-7, (M-7A)?
Bill "Newkirk"
Why no M5 contract?
Because 2 successive New Haven contracts occurred (M4, M6) without an intervening one for 3rd-rail-only cars.
i think the M7s should be M5s
Yes, but that would imply they are older than M-6's.
the R32s are younger than the R36s
Not really. A few R-36 cars were delivered in 1963 (delivery was completed in 1964), while the first R-32s didn't come in until the summer of 1964.
David
well not much younger(any delivery overlap?)
Some of the M7s will be going to Metro-North, but not on the New Haven Line. My guess is they'll be split between the Harlem and Hudson Lines, as well as the LIRR of course. The New Haven Line won't see new cars until 2012. -Nick
Whew. Lots of railfan windows. But thoses damn Diesl with the storm windows blacked out (you can't see a thing)
Amtrak allows the Acela to go 150 mph because they upgraded that part of the NEC, right? Will they upgrade other parts of the NEc also?
Editorial in today's Chicago Tribune: A Second City Revival?
Apparently several large communities are attempting to officially secede from Los Angeles, which would reduce LA's population roughly by half and make Chicago the nation's second-largest city once again.
While this might give Chicago somewhat of an ego boost, the editorial correctly makes the point that running away from urban problems by seceding is no way to create a healthy city. Whith few exceptions, most of these secession movements are organized by wealthy whites who are resentful of their tax money being used to provide social services in poor minority neighborhoods. (Cry me a friggin' river, assholes.)
The idea of Chicago being second-largest would also be sort of a hollow victory for several reasons, since A) it wouldn't really make one bit of difference in the actual quality of life here in Chicago, B) it doesn't take into account the size of the overall metropolitian area, which I believe is a much more important statistic than often-arbitrary municipal boundaries (the LA metro area would still be far larger than Chicago's regardless of how it's divided up -- see chart below), and C) Like it or not, New York and LA remain the culture and media capitols of the country. As lovable as Chicago is, it mostly remains a "fly-over city" for the cultural elites on either coast. And for better or worse, that's just fine with most Chicagoans.
City populations and metro area sizes, based on 1990 census.
I would personally like to see Chicago once again be the second-largest city in the US, but I'd much rather see that happen by Chicago's own continuing growth and vitality than by the breaking up of another city because of elitism and bigotry. But since it's highly unlikely Chicago will ever catch up to New York's size and importance, there's really no point in gloating about being second-largest anyway: Unless you're #1, nobody else really cares where you finish in the race.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Apparently several large communities are attempting to officially secede from Los Angeles, which would reduce LA's population roughly by half and make Chicago the nation's second-largest city once again.
Even if Los Angeles has a larger population, its transit system is a mere ghost in comparison to Chicago's!
While this might give Chicago somewhat of an ego boost, the editorial correctly makes the point that running away from urban problems by seceding is no way to create a healthy city.
Woah, strong statement.
I have always liked the way Chicago as a City dealt with things. The City government seems all-powerful and Daly resembles God. They also don't seem to have much problems expanding O'Hare (compared to say any proposed expansion of BOS or LAX). That's why I like Chicago -- stuff gets done.
I don't think the idea of seceding is not really that big an issue. It shouldn't be that difficult for some enabling legislation to be passed that allows a City to collect an employment tax from those who reside outside the City. Although the idea of American capitalism is to foster interstate (and indeed intercity) commerce, if this kind of equity issues become a problem, it wouldn't be too difficult for city governments to tax those who are not represented -- for example, LA could raise its rates for parking of cars from outside the city, while giving residents' permits away for practically free. They could institute a real estate tax for any employers that provides parking for those from outside LA, with an exemption for every employee that lives within the city. They can get all that money back.
Alicia
And you can count on one hand the metro areas where the suburbanites actualy are taxed so. The counter examples are legion--thus resulting in the increasing pauperization of the urban cores (read people of color) while the outer suburbs get the funds for infrastructure upgrades. See Joel Garreau's Edge City for an uncriticly gleeful description. Look at state funding for suburban commuter rail versus funding for within the city mass transit and situation becomes clear. It is exactly this inequitable allocation of transit funds which was the basis for the LA Bus Riders Union suit against LA MTA which resukted in a consent decree recently sustained by the US Supreme Court. The suit alleged "unequal treatment under the law as a 14th Amendment violation and specificly violation of the Civil Rights Acts.
The diffuse nature of Los Angeles -- vertical instead of horrizonal in all but the downtown area -- and the loss of the property tax base in the San Fernando Valley should a secession movement succeed will have a major effect on the city's economics in relation to its abaility to provide municipal services.
A lot of people who live in the northwestern sections of L.A. do not work either downtown or in what would bew the surviving city limits at all, and a commuter tax imposed by the city would have no effect on them. The legislature would probably be supportive of some sort of assistance plan should a secession move succeed, but how far the lower-income core of Los Angeles would get in getting a bill passed would probably depend on whether or not Davis or Simon (whose Southern California support figures to come from outside the core area) wins this year's guberatorial election.
A lot of people who live in the northwestern sections of L.A. do not work either downtown or in what would bew the surviving city limits at all, and a commuter tax imposed by the city would have no effect on them
If this is really the case about LA, I find it difficult to understand why it is necessary for the suburbs to subsidize the downtown core. Atlanta has all but replaced the big tract of practically useless land between the downtown and the ring road, and the city seems to be investing heavily along the beltway -- reflecting that is where all the commercial activity takes place. I have no problems with that.
If a similar zone of dereliction exists within LA, there's no reason why the city/the suburbs shouldn't "dump" it, provided that people aren't commuting across the boundaries to evade paying their dues...
Alicia
>>> The diffuse nature of Los Angeles -- vertical instead of horrizonal in all but the downtown area – and the loss of the property tax base in the San Fernando Valley should a secession movement succeed will have a major effect on the city's economics in relation to its abaility to provide municipal services. <<<
I think you mean that L.A. is horizontal rather than vertical outside the downtown area, but that can be said about most cities. The serious secession movement is in the San Fernando Valley, which is up scale and what industry it has is mainly high tech. The Hollywood Hills which geographically separate the "Valley" from the "City" with only three freeways and several winding canyon roads connecting the areas makes those in the Valley see themselves as isolated from the seat of power in downtown Los Angeles, and therefore think L.A. is not responsive to their unique problems, concentrating resources on areas with higher crime rates, more unemployment, etc. They think home rule politicians would better serve them.
The second area that wants to secede is the harbor area. If you look at a map, L.A. has one long strip corridor running from the main part of the city down to the harbor. If the harbor area broke away, the tax revenue from the port would make the local area extremely rich and result in very low property tax rates for residents.
The third area is Hollywood. For many years Hollywood was a famous tourist attraction, but the reality was a run down area with high drug usage once you left the superficial glitter of Hollywood Boulevard. There has been a resurgence in Hollywood in the past few years (possibly helped by the Red Line subway), and now the people there are saying L.A. never did anything for us, we had to build our own community, so why shouldn't we govern ourselves.
In order to secede from Los Angeles, elections would have to be held and the area wishing to secede and the whole city would both have to vote in favor of secession. Only the Valley has any real chance of getting the majorities needed to secede, and it certainly is not a favorite to do so.
Since there are already 88 incorporated cities in Los Angeles County, the incorporation of a new city would not be that difficult to accept. The hardest thing would be the accounting necessary to determine what city assets and liabilities would be transferred to the new city.
Tom
Tom, you state that only three freeways and several winding canyon roads connect the San Fernando Valley with the rest of Los Angeles. Surely you haven't forgotten the Red Line subway to North Hollywood, not to mention Metrolink commuter service and Amtrak!
The Valley wants out of LA and I can't blame them. The LA City School system is one gigantic clusterf$#%^&k, and the Valley is paying more than its share of taxes to prop up those areas that are not carrying their load. I hear even San Pedro and the Wilmington area are thinking of checking out.
uh oh, I knew the snobs of Woodland Hills would get something going.
>>> Surely you haven't forgotten the Red Line subway to North Hollywood, not to mention Metrolink commuter service and Amtrak! <<<
I did not forget them, but the Red Line just pokes its nose into the Valley, like a subway from Manhattan to Queensboro Plaza would link Manhattan to Queens. And Metrolink is a part time commuter railroad, not a full time link, so I thought them hardly worth mentioning.
Tom
Sorry about the length-height mix-up in my original post.
I've got a friend who lives up in Lancaster, which is still in Los Angeles County, but the area suffers from the same "isolated" feeling in respect to the county government due to the seperation caused by the San Gabriel Mountains that you metion between the Valley and City areas of Los Angeles due to the Hollywood Hills. It can get pretty frustrating at times (think Staten Island's attitude pre-Giuliani), and while northern Los Angeles County isn't thinking about secession, it carries the same attitude that it's getting the short end of the stick on county municipal services (though since the new DA out there is a former sheriff's department officer from Palmdale, I think they're a little mollified in terms of law enforcement operations).
On the other hand, the county and state did get Metrolink going in a hurry to that area after the 1994 Northridge quake, so if you yell loud enough at times, you can get action.
well MTA covers most of thw valley with bus & a red line rail station!
However i do not blame the "valley dudes & girls" ...........
for wanting to DROP los angeles big time !!!
Maybe they should go to a ""township or parash or borough"" type
system ! If the valley remains in los angeles city it gets
""half / assed"" with the jive of the big downtown LA crap-oloa..
the valley was supposed to get more rail service than it got !
I in a sense dont blame them for telling downtown LA to "shove it"
!!!!!!..........lol..!!!
This news is all stuff that people can find about on their own, if so desired, I don't think posting it all here is a wise use of our hosts bandwidth. Post a link if you want.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, I happen to find these posts quite useful. I don't have time to read all the railfan sites.
Alciia
Does anybody know what part of South Brooklyn is where SBK scapyard is located? Because I want to pass by there one day & photograph a couple of the scrap trains. Is it possible to go there to photograph the scrap trains or is it prohibited if so could you get arrested for that & receive a fine?
The SBK 'scrapyard' is NOT actually a scrapyard. It is an interchange yard that is shared with the New York Cross Harbor Railroad. It is located at the intersection of 39th Street and 2nd Avenue in the Sunset Park section of Brooklyn. It is across the street from a big Costco warehouse.
I was just over there today and noticed that the gate is padlocked and that there was no one on duty in the guardshack which was usually occuppied even on weekends.
In any event, looked like someone 'bombed' the Redbird cars recently with '70's style graffiti...
Did they ever clean up the asphalt spill on 2nd Ave that was on top of part of the track? I don't think it was enough to keep trains from passing, but it may have been.
subfan
Subfan wrote:
> Did they ever clean up the asphalt spill on 2nd Ave
> that was on top of part of the track? I don't think
> it was enough to keep trains from passing, but it
> may have been.
Tracks from 40th St. to points north along 2nd Ave. are not covered with asphalt. I doubt that you could could still run trains on it in their current state. The surface of the road at the intersection of 39th St. and 2nd Ave. is in really poor condition (both asphalt and rails). Lot of traffic from that Gowanus offramp.
That said, there's a train that goes from around 49th St. and 1st Ave. to the Brooklyn Army Terminal (58th St. and 1st Ave.) once a week (not exactly sure for what purpose). So there's definitely working rails along 1st Ave. for at least eight or nine blocks.
BMTman wrote:
>
> The SBK 'scrapyard' is NOT actually a scrapyard. It
> is an interchange yard that is shared with the New
> York Cross Harbor Railroad. It is located at the
> intersection of 39th Street and 2nd Avenue in the
> Sunset Park section of Brooklyn.
>
> I was just over there today and noticed that the
> gate is padlocked and that there was no one on
> duty in the guardshack which was usually occuppied
> even on weekends.
Try going down 39th St. past 1st Ave. to the piers. You might be able to take pictures through the fence. Also, you might be able to go around the back into the railyard. You'd still be trespassing, though, so you might get arrested (or at the very least expelled from the yard). Also, I wouldn't recommend going to the piers at night. It's a pretty lonely area.
The srapyard was really a pipe yard.
OK, so it's not the South Brooklyn yard, but this thread made me think about some shots I took a long time back - 25 May 1986, to be exact - of the Striegel Supply & Equipment Corp. in Baltimore, Maryland. So I scanned two of them for your viewing pleasure (click on the thumbnail for a larger image).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, everybody! Great to be back!!!!!
Could someone possible supply me with scanner frequencies for the Chicago "L"? I plan to be riding it this week.
Currently, Queens Blvd runs more or less like this on rush hours:
E 15TPH R 9-10TPH
F 15TPH V 6-8TPH
If the V gets extended to Kings Highway/Culver and the G extends to Church Av/Kensington, the F can run express from Jay St to Church Av both directions and Church-Kings peak direction. That way, it is ok to lessen F service without harming Culver and Kensington passengers (me being 1 of them). Therefore, we can reduce F service to 10TPH at Queens Blvd. If we reduce E service from 4min (15TPH) intervals to 6min (10TPH), we can fit in Q trains at 6TPH via Queens express and 63 Street. Since the F runs more frequently than the V and passengers at 53 Street rather take the E or F, the V should run along the 63 Street tunnel and the F should run under the 53rd. Even if the V goes under the 63st tunnel, 6av passengers can still get to local Queens station in a one-seat ride. The E can continue running to Jamaica. The Q can run via Hillside express and the F can continue running Hillside local. Another reason to extend the Q is because many Broadway riders rather transfer to the express E or F at Herald Sq or Times Sq rather than a local R that runs less frequent. (Knowing this since I am a R train conductor on Tuesday rush hours) If the Q ran to Queens AND runs express, Broadway passengers don't have to transfer to get to a Queens express train nor a 63st train. Extending the Q at 6TPH can only give room for the circle Q, so the diamond Q will have to be eliminated. The M can run local to Brighton Bch weekdays providing local service while the circle Q makes express stops in Brighton. This will also cause less congestion on the Manhattan Bridge. The N might have to make local stops via 4av since the R will be the only 4av local train if the M is moved to Brighton. There should be enough R40 Slants and conductors from the Q diamond for the extended Q,V and M and there should be enough R46s for the G.
The advantages of all this is less crowding on the E and F. Less TPH on the Qns Blvd exp line. More ridership on the V and Q. Express service on the Culver line. The only disadvantages are that the G will never go to QB and less service on the 4av line incl. no direct ride from 4av local stops to West End.
On the one hand, it's nice to see creative effort still at work on the Queens Blvd. problem. On the other hand, we're still beating the old dead horse.
The MTA had very good reasons for setting up the 63rd St service the way they did. It works pretty well, helps a lot more people than it hurts, and was the best of the available arrangements. There's a ton of material available in the archives about this. The arrival of more subway cars will also help further, as will restoration of full IND services (see below).
Your suggestions about Brooklyn are understandable. Brooklyn IND service will improve when 1) total track capacity increases after the Manny B reopens for full 4-track service in 2004 (and repair work is on schedule as we speak)and b) the Bergen Tower is repaired or similar signalling services are in place. I have no idea what the Tower's (which suffered a devastating fire) status is now.
I see two major problems with this.
First, G passengers bound for Queens Boulevard local stops, who until December didn't have to transfer at all, have to transfer twice by your plan, first to the E/F and then to the R.
Second, and more important, your plan forces anyone at a Brighton local stop bound for any point in Manhattan north of Delancey Street to transfer to the express (or to the N/R at DeKalb). That's unacceptable. Mess with any other service, even the express, but there absolutely must be direct service from all stops on the Brighton line to midtown Manhattan.
Queens Boulevard service is fine as it is. Crowding is reduced on both the E and the F.
My suggestion has been and is for Queens Blvd:
Express: E{20TPH} Q{10TPH}. If the Q runs runs at less than 10TPH, then the E will have more.
Local: F{18TPH R{9-10TPH}.
E: same but more trains to alleviate crowding
F: 179-Queens Blvd Lcl-53rd St
Q: 179-Hillside/Queens Blvd Exp-63rd St
R: same
V: no longer exists, unnecessary
People for the G train have a direct 53rd St local service in the F. The Q gets into Queens Blvd. The E gets more trains because the F is replaced by the Q as the other express. The V is removed and the F is given more trains to handle 6th Ave. This is all without changing service on the Culver line. Disadvantages: the circle/diamond Q problem: in 2004 it won't be a problem anymore, but right now you have to see if you can redesignate one of them or substitute something down the Brighton. Other disadvantage: no train serves 57/6. I'm not sure what ridership levels are like at that station.
Your plan, while creative, doesn't work. 57/6 is now pretty heavily used, but that's the least of it. E service frequency, which doesn't need to be increased, is limited by capacity in the Archer Avenue tunnel, specifically, the ability to turn trains at Jamaica Center.
You're proposing a solution to a non-problem. There will continue to be minor tweaking to the current plan, and more improvements will follow the opening of the 4-track Manny B service in 2004.
"You're proposing a solution to a non-problem."
There is a problem: the number of people who want to take an express from QB to Manhattan just about equals the current cpacity of the single express track in each direction. In the next employment upsurge the situation will be miserable.
There are 4 general solutions:
1. Tweak the lines so that traffic can be optimally balanced between the express trains, so that some aren't much more crowded than others (right now the E is more crowded than the F). This is not a real fix, but can be important to minimize the misery. Almost all the suggestions posted have been of this type, and probably all or most of them would just make it worse.
2. Increase the capacity of the express tracks above 30 tph. This is complicated, possibly beyond the abilities of TA management.
3. Add one or more additional express tracks. This is VERY expensive.
4. Persuade more people to take the local.
Posters on Subtalk like to talk about #1 because it's fun, and there's always the hope of coming up with a really good idea.
The TA likes #4 because it's their best hope in times of limited resources.
Increase the capacity of the express tracks above 30 tph. This is complicated, possibly beyond the abilities of TA management.
What restricts these tracks to 30 tph? As everyone knows, in Paris, headways as low as 1 min 40 s (36 tph) have been operated and they know they can do 40 tph if there were ever the need. What makes New York incapable of running that kind of service?
Other postings have addressed this at length. At the risk of mangling the info, let me try to respond:
- To manage more tph, you have to keep exactly on schedule, neither early nor late. If you're early, you run empty and the next train runs too full.
- Dispatch clocks aren't accurate enough.
- T/Os and C/Rs aren't sufficiently encouraged not to run a minute early in mid-trip.
- New Yorkers are an unruly bunch compared to denizens of other cities. You just can't persuade them that it's to the greater good not to hold the doors for an extra 10 seconds so that they can get on the train.
- T/Os don't have info that tells them that they're 30 seconds ahead of schedule, and therefore slow down a bit to the next stop, or vice versa that they're 30 seconds behind and should make every possible effort to get to the next stop ASAP.
- The safety precautions instituted over the last few decades mandate more room between trains.
- Block signaling doesn't allow for closer spacing that would in fact be safe.
I think that you can add the issue of merges. Perhaps other lines do not have diverging routes dodging in and out. Even the parts of the IND that were designed for this kind of operation have been second and third guessed by subsequent generations of subway management, so that what once was efficient, no longer is so.
Some of our terminals do not seem to be able to turn and recycle trainsets fast enough. perhaps other lines have other ways of doing it.
I looked at the NTSB report on the Williamsburg Bridge collision, and it seems that there *are* problems with the signalling system, and susequent to that report we saw the introduction of more restrictive signalling and timing devices and also the introduction of motor shunts.
To Run at higher intervals you need to address all of these issues, as well as the ones in the previous post. There is no good reason NOT to run 40 tph, but it will take the complete overhaul of our safety and control systems, and the simplification of track routings.
Elias
I will agree that ridership will surge as the economy gets better. Your analysis of the four points you suggest is good.
I will offer, in turn, the following:
1) Improvements in LIRR service (East Side Access) will help, and ESA is under construction. But this will not help in the near term.
2) The Queens Bypass Express is still possible to build - but will require much $$$ and, now that 63rd Street service is open, would be behind projects in other boroughs (ike the Second Av Subway, LGA, etc.) in priority.
I have already pointed out that the Manny B reopening in 2004 will help Brooklyn directly and everyone else indirectly.
How does LIRR East side access reduce QB congestion? I can see it dramtically reducing 7 line congestion as people no longer take the LIRR to Hunters Point, but how does it help QB?
Alo, how does MB reopening even indirectly help QB?
Question1:
----------
Where duz da C go after Euclid Av? Is the relay located in Pitkin Yard, or is there a separate relay yard, or does the C bypass Grant Av and use the middle exp track as relay?
Question2:
----------
Why did the MTA no longer make the W run express in Astoria anymore? Both the W and N make all local stops in Astoria now.
Here's a partial answer to your first question.
According to the track map of the Pitkin Yard area on this site, the express track which seemingly emerges from under the Grant Av platform does not connect with the express tracks of Euclid Av station, but connects directly to the Yard. Also, according to the map, there seems to be four layup tracks east of the Yard connection, but no easy way of switching from, say, the east bound local to the west bound local tracks. Thus, I'm guessing that the C goes toward the Yard at least and until it passes a switch track that would allow it to go back and merge on to the west bound tracks.
The C train relays on the Pitkin Yard lead, but does not actually enter the Yard unless a long relay is performed to drop somebody off. For regular relays, the T/O stops at the 8 car reverse marker where you can see the Yard portal. There is no special relay Yard or siding track.
Also, the middle track at 80 St-Hudson St is not an express track, but a Yard lead which is not part of the mainline. Once it goes underground, it curves directly into Pitkin Yard with no direct access to Euclid Av. An express track would be signified on the signal plates by an A3 or A4 track designation. That middle track is known as A6 and automatic signals can be keyed on that track without permission which is a big no-no on mainline tracks.
Heard a blurb on the news that the Staten Island Railway will be getting new substations and that this will mess up service. Any details?
AFAIK, the only work being done on the SIR currently is the installation of a new signalling system.
-Hank
On Saturday, May 6, I spotted a work consist at Eltingville. Looked like rail replacement- had a couple of flatbeds with pre-assembled track, and a crane of the type often used on SIR- capable of running on asphalt as well as track.
I took some photos with my digital camera. If anyone's interested, write me, I'll be happy to mail them to you.
I've uploaded some more pictures:
4052 - the other CLRV that was wrapped up in advertising for Guinness:
Click here
4134 - the CLRV that has seen the most different ad wraps:
Click here
The first two streetcars that the TTC had wrapped in advertising were ALRV 4251 and CLRV 4134 which were done up for Starbucks. I have one print picture which I'll find and scan later and one slide of the ALRV; the one time I saw 4134 in the Starbucks advertisment was when I was eating in a restaurant in the basement of a building on King St. and I saw the lower half of the streetcar go by so I never got to photograph it. 4134 was then rewrapped for CHUM FM, then Ontario Power Generation and then I believe it was unwrapped and went to Hillcrest for it's light overhual. ALRV 4251 was unwrapped and to date no ALRV has been wrapped in advertising since. 4251 came back from being repainted at Hillcrest several months ago.
4052 and 4149 were taken and wrapped up for Guinness during 4134's time in the CHUM advertisment. Unfortunately, 4149 broke down and wasn't scheduled to be repaired before the Guinness contract expired, however it was repaired and returned to service shortly before the advertising contract with Guinness finished up and I found and photographed it on Bathurst (I don't have any prints of those slides to scan). Then both 4149 and 4052 were rewrapped in blue advertising for IBM which I don't have any prints from the slides to scan in. If you look closely at the pictures of 4052 and 4149, you will notice that 4149 has a black band in the vinyl advertising wrap carrying around the front of the car, above the anticlimber, which isn't present in 4052's vinyl wrap. The black band was to conceal a nast rust gash on 4149 just above the anticlimber which was subsequently repaired when it went in for its light overhaul and repaint; the black band was repeated in its IBM advertisment as well and stood out more against the blue background. Late in the summer, CLRV 4181 was taken and wrapped up in a second CHUM FM advertisment which was similar to but a variation of the one used on 4134 which I have a scan of.
There you have the history of Toronto's adwrapped streetcars in a nutshell.
I really need to get a slide/film scanner...
-Robert King
Story here
A rather long section of unused tunnel past the end of one of Montreal's subway lines is used for similar purposes. There's a webpage on it but it's in French and I don't have it's address on this computer...
-Robert King
Robert, if you can find the address please post it... my French is rusty but I should be able to make enough sense of it to understand what they are talking about.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
way to go WMATA
A pair of old Metro cars ?
Were these cars involved in a low level collision or have some defect ? I had no idea Metro had any OLD cars in the property.
Bill "Newkirk"
They did. I saw one of the cars sitting outside the facility a few weeks ago although I had no idea why it was there.
My guess is they used 1114 and 1115, although I am not sure.
I remember seeing the money train used a pair of unmodified 1000's as work motors
Interesting way of putting the second avenue subway tunnels under the COnfucious Houses to work ..... or maybe that often-neglected 76th St station in Queens :)
--Mark
Has there been any R143 sightings of the M either regular service (to 9 Av/Bay Pkwy) or shuttle service (which is probably more likely to be seenon the M)?
Thanks!
Nick
I don't think the R-143's will be showing up on the M until they've filled up the L.
None of the t/o's who work the M are qualified on the R143 yet unless they spend time on the L line during any day of their work week. R143's are not necessary on the M till OPTO gets implimented (9/8/02 or the Spring 2003 pick-to be determined).
As of right now no. The R-143 hasn't even been programmed yet with any other Eastern Division (J,L,M,Z) line into its' route computers other than the L line. Once the cars start being accepted into the system in numbers, and once the programming for the M and all Eastern Div. routes have all been programmed into the 143 computers, then count on seeing them show up on the M line in regular service.
Get thee to the northbound platform of Castle Hill Avenue on the 6, near the middle. I don't have an exact date since I only noticed it in passing from a moving train, but it has a service table in the upper right-hand corner and (I'm not entirely sure of this) it seems to be organized by time rather than by borough, which would place it in the mid-90's.
Not as bad as during the early 1960s, when the ubiquitous 1947 maps could still be found in many stations.
-- Ed Sachs
AFAIK, there's still a 70's map hiding at 57/6.
Dig that K train!
As of about 3 weeks ago, the 70's map at 57/6 is still there.
CG
No, sorry Mr. Greenberger, I think it's gone. Based on your earlier posting (late 2001 ish) and my own observations (1998 or so), I remember this map.
I went looking for it in January or February of this year- couldn't find it anywhere on the mezzanine or platform. My guess is that they finally got to removing it when they re-signed the 6th Ave Line for the V and re-routed F.
I seem to remember you'd also posted something about a "KK" sign still being present there. Alas, it also seemed gone.
However, at Bowling Green, at the Battery Place entrances, you can still find "4" and "5" signs in their 1967 colors.......
Also, that 1970's map depicts such clean, orderly lines. Unless one knew better, one would never suspect what a mess the system was back then, especially the Eastern Division.
No, sorry Mr. Greenberger, I think it's gone. Based on your earlier posting (late 2001 ish) and my own observations (1998 or so), I remember this map.
Mr. Greenberger? Why are you addressing my father?
I went looking for it in January or February of this year- couldn't find it anywhere on the mezzanine or platform. My guess is that they finally got to removing it when they re-signed the 6th Ave Line for the V and re-routed F.
Yet Charles confirms that it was there three weeks ago. It may have been hiding -- it's on a movable pedestal. The 70's side is usually facing the outside of one of the glass fare control boxes.
I seem to remember you'd also posted something about a "KK" sign still being present there. Alas, it also seemed gone.
No, that was someone else, and it was at 47th-50th. I went to look for it and I, too, couldn't find it (and I looked everywhere).
However, at Bowling Green, at the Battery Place entrances, you can still find "4" and "5" signs in their 1967 colors.......
Indeed, both on the street and on the abandoned shuttle platform.
Hey, thanks for responding. There's a lot of Daves and Davids here, so hence the formal way of addressing you.
Anyhow, now that you mention it, I DO now remember you said the "KK" sign was at 47th/50th. And in fact, that IS where I checked for it, the same night I looked for the 1970s era map at 57th. I work way downtown, and live in SI, so I don't get to the 6th Ave Line much (other than for railfanning), even when I need to go to Midtown. So I didn't know that one exit at 47/50 is (or was) closed late at night (guess I didn't read the sign too carefully either), and I almost got "stuck" on the mezzanine- an unchained, ungated stairway led up there, and the only way out was to go back to the platform and use another exit. Glad I didn't interupt any intimate moments up there!
We haven't been here for a while, so I'd kinda forgotten a lot of our conversations.
This afternoon I drove over to check out the progress on the Southern N.J. Light Rail Line. I observed a notice at the partially-completed Riverside Station, warning to be on alert as testing of rail vehicles begins on May 8th. Does this indicate that Light Rail cars have been delivered and are being tested, and where is the maintenance facility located?
No, the light rail cars aren't delivered yet. The testing is of grade crossing signalling. Bechtel leased two SW1500's from Juniata terminal to use for signal testing. I photographed them from across the tracks when they were parked at the maintenance facility at 32nd Street, Camden, on April 28.
SW1500's in Camden
Who is building the light rail cars and what will they look like?
I don't remember who's building them, bu tthere used to be a partial mock-up in Riverside.
SNJLRTS car mockup
Bombardier is building the cars - off-the-shelf Adtranz GTW 2/6. Don't know which manufacturing plant(s).
So Bombardier is going to continue to build those cars? I didn't see the GTW 2/6 on Bombardier's web site. I thought they discontinued it when they took over Adtranz. I've seen pictures of them on the European Railway Server's web site under German DMU's (Class 646). Like all of the German Railway's regional trains, they are painted red, which is a great color for them. They are very nice looking cars and supposedly putting all the mechanical components in the middle section makes maintenance of the cars much easier. I hope they do really well in south Jersey. Maybe we could see them elsewhere in the U.S.
The information on the selection of the GTW 2/6 comes from a two-year-old public relations brochure put out by NJT for the light rail line.
Where exactly is the Southern New Jersey Light Rail Line going to go?
- Lyle Goldman
Where exactly is the Southern New Jersey Light Rail Line going to go?
Camden to Trenton. Street running in Camden, then private ROW shared with Conrail Shared Assets (former Camden & Amboy [first railroad in NJ]) to Bordentown, then continuing with CSAO into Trenton to the Trenton NEC station, but it won't join the NEC.
NJT map of SNJLRTS
I have three pages of Webshots photos of construction photos on the line.
South Jersey light rail construction photos
I find it interesting that this line is called the South Jersey line, as opposed to the Camden-Trenton Line or something like that
"South Jersey" seems sort of vague and general.
I mean, the Hudson-Bergen is not called the "North Jersey Light Rail".
The word "southern" in the name of the new light rail line might well be a political nod to the portion of the Garden State which traditionally has received little money for rail projects, as opposed to the far more populous north.
Are there any plans to provide SEPTA-style connections between Camden and Philadelphia? If people in the Cherry Hill/Moorestown area suburbs didn't have to go all the way to Trenton to catch the SEPTA, they might take public transportation more often. Then again, that might just be a pipe dream, as these are the most suburban suburbs I've ever visited.
Wouldn't PATCO or the NJT Atlantic City line be much more convenient than driving all the way up to Trenton? That said, I'd probably agree that South Jersey could use much better transit access to Philly. That's one of the reasons I'll likely find a place on the PA side of the river once I move there.
And if Cherry Hill is the most "suburban" suburb you've ever visited, I'd suggest a visit to Naperville or Schaumburg, Illinois. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Cherry Hill has a station on the NJT Atlantic City line.
Cherry Hill has a PATCO station (Woodcrest) and the Ashland station has a parking lot in Cherry Hill.
PATCO will have a transfer connection with the SNJLRTS at the Broadway (Camden) station.
The Atlantic City NJT line goes over the SNJLRTS where it (NJT) comes off the Delair Bridge, but there will be no transfer connection.
Here's a photo of the NJT AC line going over the light rail ROW.
DeRousse Ave looking south
PATCO's Haddonfield Station is within a reasonable drive of Cherry Hill, and sports both a nice-sized parking lot and NJT bus service.
From the May 20, 2002 New York Times:
It's a First-Class Gridlock, but No Easier to Unlock. In Mexico City, the better off you are, the more likely you would prefer roads over rail.
Here is an opportunity to play "Robert Moses" in Mexico.
Should the mayor of Mexico City extend the cheap and efficient subway system, or start a billion-dollar project to build double-decker highways?
--Mark
Of course I favor mass transit, and on my more authoritarian days I would seriously restrict auto usage. Mecico City may be unfixable. Note the serious race/class prejudice against non-drivers. AFAIK the city is in a disastrous weather/pollution location--not to mention the ancient volcano bowl/lakebed substructure in earthquake country. Imagine one fifth of the US all living in the NY metro area--the majority in shanties such as NY had in the 1800's.
Interesting. For a contrast consider this: São Paulo is about the same size as Mexico City, both Latin, similar social classes, and both with massive congestion. However, the São Paulo gov't has decided that mass transit construction has been lagging, so they have accelerated Metrô construction so that the subway will be almost three times larger than today by 2009. Once the Metrô is completed, its ~90 route miles will carry 1.5 billion people a year, which will make it busier than NYCT and with only 1/4 of the route miles. I observed that many upper class people ride the Metrô as well as lower class. Only one highway is planned, and even that is just filling in gaps in the circular highway.
Is Mexico City a diverse city? Are the vast majority of people of Spanish/Indian decsent? São Paulo is more diverse than NYC, so they probably aren't concerned with class as other Latin cities. This might be one reason for the lack the suport the mass transit in Mexico City.
It is possible that the Times has it right. On the other hand, the Times has a disturbing tendency to interject race and ethnicity into many social and political issues where those concepts simply don't apply. My guess is that there are few racial/ethnic aspects to the roads-vs.-rails debate in Mexico except insofar as they relate to economic class.
A new book is coming out on grafitti by Joe Austin called "Taking the Train". From the Sunday 5/19 NYT Book Review:
Austin, a professor of popular culture at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, argues that the graffiti epidemic was really a smokescreen for poor civic management, and that graffiti itself was the inevitable result of a whole outpouring of structural social factors. Rather than a crisis, he argues, graffiti should have been recognized as social outcry, even a potential revenue generator, sparking tourism from graffiti-appreciating ''world-hopping sophisticates.''
--Mark
Typical NYT.
Instead of letting graffitti fade into history they would rather make mention of this book.
If there is a resurgence of graffitti on the subway we can have the MYT to thank.
"All the News that gives everyone a fit when we print it"
>>>>>>If there is a resurgence of graffiti on the subway we can have the NYT to thank.
I seriously doubt that graffiti writers read The New York Times. Unless there are some snooty well-heeled vandals amongst us.
There is no shortage of graffiti defenders in the press and college campuses...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The key line here is that Mr. Austin is employed at "Bowling Green State University in Ohio." Most of the main extollers of graffiti in the acedemic/intellectual community -- like Norman Mailer 25 years ago -- are typcially people who never had to deal with the graffiti problems as passengers twice a day, five days a week, 45-50 week a year.
There no doubt was poor civic management in New York during the 1970s when graffiti first took hold, but the revenue generating aspect of his thesis is the concept of a professor speaking from 500 miles away and 18 years after the fact.
Perhaps if the entire quad at Bowling Green State University is spray painted, along with the inside of the buildings, the campus might become a tourist attraction in its own right and raise additional funds for the university's coffers....
Better yet, if the whole crew could have their foreheads permanently engraved with 'scratitti,' they would better understand what a miserable form of 'self expression' that they support.
Maybe Bowling Green State University should be covered instead in bright red glazed brick.
Good point. But make sure they add underpasses on the quad but keep the old-fashioned station house entry/exit to the street...
...locked tight on weekends!
.. and keep the old station signage intact :)
--Mark
lol....like Bowling Green station......
In my latest weird subway dream the other night, I wondered how the doors on a mixed consist of R-10s and R-12s would behave. As we know, the R-10s had pneumatic doors while the R-12s had electric doors, and I was curious if the R-10s would still give off their trademark "ksssssss" sound as the door locks released. Well, they did, but here was the weird part: there was one of each car in the middle of the train at the conductor's post, and to top it all off, the door controls on the R-12 were in the cab! Don't ask me how the poor conductor worked the doors.
I suppose that thoretically you could have one of each car in the middle, since both had trigger boxes and the triggers worked the same way. You'd hear the "kssss" sound on the R-10s as the doors opened, but not on the R-12s.
This is what happens when you eat Mexican food an hour before you go to sleep.
Maybe it should be "You're Asking For It!!"
The last one I had was months ago. I was operating a Triplex #4 Sea Beach and as I came to Pacific Street I saw Hillary Clinton standing almost naked in the middle of the tracks with that haughty look on her face. I need no other dreams. It doesn't get any better than that.
Man, I just woofed my cookies on that one :)
--Mark
Glad you enjoyed it Mark. I kind of liked it myself. Too bad it was just a dream, eh? And notice how hilarious Hillary is hemming and hawing about supporting Israel. Got to see which way the wind is blowing I guess.
ewwww fred. see this is why i make fun of sea beach people. it's those unused express tracks messing you guys up. LOL.
actually go n train and i are best friends in real life, but we always take the west end and not sea beach to go places cause i'm VERY convincing... heh heh heh (¬_¬)
And if Fred was a New Yorker he would vote for her
Bob!! Long time no hear! I guess it's safe to assume the Bob and Fred Show is back with a vengeance. Time to start ROTFLMAO again.:-)
BTW I'm all set for October and railfanning.
I'm still gagging on that one Bob. Are you out of your mind? Are you freaking out in space? Me and Hillary? If Hillary invaded hell, I would at least have a favorable word for two about Satan. Well, maybe not, but just think of it: Hillary and Satan. Kind of goes together doesn't it?
RM, we've got to put you on a couch. I know of a very good psychiatrist who can help you. The West End? You'd be better taking the hind end.
Haha, you take care of this one Fred, I'm not bothering with him. :P
The last one I had was months ago. I was operating a Triplex #4 Sea Beach and as I came to Pacific Street I saw Hillary Clinton standing almost naked in the middle of the tracks with that haughty look on her face.
BLEEEEECCCCCCHHHHH!!!!!!
That's precisely why I DON'T eat Mexican food, period.:-) Now pizza OTOH is another story. Always leaves me thirsty.
I was overdue for a weird subway dream. One or two per month is the norm.
Counseling ... serious counseling. STEP AWAY FROM THE SHROOMS ... :)
It's the R-10s. I keep hearing their doors open every time I open a Windows-based program.:-)
Don't feel bad. I know a guy down in Poughkeepsie who has the doors of an R9 opening for "open window" and bing-bong for "closing" ... some folks just ain't wired right. :)
I have the "bing bong/ding dong" sound when minimizing a screen as well as R-10 door closing bits on other events. Not to mention the R-10 starting off with a bang when receiving a print acknowledgement.
Now if I only had a sound bit of a train of R-10s ripping and roaring past a local stop along CPW....
Heh. DO you get ANY work done in between stops? :)
Yes I do.:-) Actually I have a bunch of subway sound bits which haven't been used. I had a "Watch the closing doors - ding-dong" bit associated with minimizing a screen, but substituted R-10 doors closing some time ago.
Then there's John Belushi screaming "FOOD FI-IIII-IGHT!!!" whenever I get an email....
Boy ... and I thought *I* was over the edge for having a whole set of BVE on one of our lab rats here. :)
Rest assured, you are over the edge. As am I.
Peace,
ANDEE
I received a letter from the MTA for the Train Operator Selection Survey. In the case somebody wants to know, my number is around 2400. I went through the archive and I found a lot of good info. However, I have some questions in regards of T/O hiring by the MTA. Here we go:
1) How long does it take after the TOOS to be hired (assumed one passes the Dr. Freud and the drug test) ?
2) How man T/O got fired from the first classes before the first year of service (of the open competitive hires)?
3) What is the story with the union? My undertstaning is that they don't like outsiders.
4) Is the signal test a written test or what kind of test is it? I read that you must answer all questions correctly otherwise you get fired.
5) Besides the drug test, does the MTA require other medical tests and if yes what kind?
Thank you very much for the help.
Steve
>>>>>>>>>1) How long does it take after the TOOS to be hired (assumed one passes the Dr. Freud and the drug test) ?
Depends on when the TA needs you. When they want you, they'll let you know.
Can't answer question 2. Sorry.
>>>>>>>>>3) What is the story with the union? My undertstaning is that they don't like outsiders.
Safe to say that statement is correct. But after your probation is finished, they'll back you just like any other union member.
4) Is the signal test a written test or what kind of test is it? I read that you must answer all questions correctly otherwise you get fired.
The TA will be drilling signals in your head for the first 6 months. You'll get all kinds of tests.
And you don't have to get every signal question right on the test (that's in the LIRR and Metro-North), but you will be required to get 80% right.
>>>>>>>>5) Besides the drug test, does the MTA require other medical tests and if yes what kind?
You'll get an annual physical from head to toe.
Question 2 - RUMOR seems to say that NONE were fired from the early classes of the open competitive exam. what the fact happens to be, i don't know.
At first people were fired from the signal exam. Now it is back to the old hit or miss after the mixed class (YES there was a mixed class, OC and promo) if they go to bat for you. Someone was fired the first week then a few other people had worse or just as bad incidents but they had 'rabbis' and got to stay so the other person is supposedly back too.
Whew ... when I saw the subject line, I thought "labor relations" had come up with a new competitive sport for management. After all, now that "dwarf tossing" is illegal, alternatives must be sought. :)
I beleive a class began this past monday.....the last man in the class was number 1141
Yes it did. All went to the B division.
Hi
I am happy to see Subtalk back.
I was wondering, did any Subtalkers attend yesterday's NYC Transit Museum Tour of the Dyre Avenue 5 line in the Bronx?
There were about 25 people on the tour and it was hard to get acquainted with everyone.
I attended it with my sister. The tour was very well presented. We got to see the old NYW&B platforms that have not been in public use for almost 50 years. We also got to walk past the city line to see the remains of the old Kingsbridge Road entrance.
Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone on this board was there. Thanks.
John
Hey i have an idea for the equipment swapping. I would like to see all different variations of equipments are on subway lines. But in respect to their yards. Like i would like to see the E train 50% R32 and 50% R46. Same with the R , v , F trains. I like how the N is currently a mixed bag with R32 , R40s , 68s. I would like to see the D with some slants basically I would like if equipment was on all lines but in respect to their yard. Like i wouldnt want R44s running on Qb becuase of the yard situation. Does anyone agree with me?
done with my rant,
Adam
I prefer predictability, so 1 line/1 car type is no problem. However, I've always advocated that Jamaica swap it's R32's with ENY's R42's so those rusting demons could spend a lot more time sheilded from the elements running on the all underground R/V/E lines.
The TA would regard it as a waste to run their best 60' car (R32) on the Eastern Division. They should put the R40's on the C and get the R32's to CI.
They already run their 2 worst car types overall (R44, R38) on the A, their "showcase" line. I was unaware that R42 performance was significantly worse than the R32.
The (A) is their showcase? They sure don't treat it that way. Not only does it run second-class equipment, but it's also pretty infrequent. It's major distinction is that it's the longest line in the system.
If NYCT has a showcase, I'd think it's the (1) or the (7). Of from the B-division maybe the (E).
:-) Andrew
Certainly not the 1. The 1 is the only line that can't keep up with its crowds yet runs at only half the track capacity available.
I don't see what's wrong with the R-38. It's a lot more pleasant to ride than most of the other equipment out there.
I actually like the R38. It's better looking than the R32, probably the best looking 60 footer currently in serivice. But it is definitely one of the car classes headed for retirement. So it would seem that it qualifies as "second class".
:-) Andrew
IMO, the R-38 is a close second to the R-42 in interior appearance, and it beats the R-42 in ride quality. Both will be missed.
Ugh. Don't even compare the two. The only advantage the R38 has over the R42 is the more comfortable seat shape.
... And the riding quality, and appearance, and seating, and lighting(the tan looks better with baklit ads)...
The MK R42 is the WORST car out there(from my point of view)
The R38 is the worst piece of garbage in service on the B division. It's dark, bouncy, loud & it's AC sucks.
The R38 is probably the most rust-ridden car type outside the now departing redbirds.
The (A) is their showcase? They sure don't treat it that way. Not only does it run second-class equipment, but it's also pretty infrequent. It's major distinction is that it's the longest line in the system.
If NYCT has a showcase, I'd think it's the (1) or the (7). Of from the B-division maybe the (E).
I don't feel the 7 would be the showcase of the system, nor the E. Looking at this from a "non-railfan" perspective, which line does everyone think the "showcase" line of the subway would be? This is NOT necessarily our "favorite" lines. It has to be objective. Which is NYCT's "showcase line"
It's NOT My personal favorite line, but I still think it would be the A, as the "showcase" line of the subway. Opinions?
The C? Just kidding.
I'm not sure there is a showcase line. Here are some criteria I'd apply to a showcase line:
runs reasonably frequently
gets reasonably crowded, and not only during rush hours
doesn't get so overcrowded that it's forced to skip scheduled stops on a regular basis
is not eliminated or reduced to a shuttle during off-hours
is not a shuttle
This leaves as contenders, AFAIK, the 2, 4, 6, 7, A, E, L, and circle-Q.
CLEARLY the answer to the question is the "Franklin Shuttle" ... at least in my book. Just the stained glass alone at Franklin makes it a showcase. And it seems to meet most of the other qualifications too.
This leaves as contenders, AFAIK, the 2, 4, 6, 7, A, E, L, and circle-Q.
In addition to your critera, which I agree with, the "Showcase line" should also run through comfortable stations. When I said the A, I may have been biased (as I said not to) from a railfan perspective, because it is a great line, but I feel the general public probably like it also.
It is a hard decision. Close to the top is also the 6 line. It is a very well run line, the trains are generally clean, and the stations are well kept for the most part. As crazy as I originally thought the E sounded originally, I'm thinking it may also be near the top of the list also. From a railfan perspective it sucks, but a closer look from a passenger perspective it is a well run line, and is also near the top of the list. Again we are not looking from a railfan perspective: It doesn't matter if it's a "fun" line with a good mix of elevated, open cut etc.
As crazy as I originally thought the E sounded originally, I'm thinking it may also be near the top of the list also. From a railfan perspective it sucks ...
I don't agree with you. The E provides one of the best express runs there is.
--Mark
I don't agree with you. The E provides one of the best express runs there is.
I did say that it should be at the top of the list for the "showcase" line. The only reason I said it wasn't great from a railfan perspective is because it has no variety...like the R and the C it's all underground, nothing interesting, except the express run. The F does take basically the same express run as the E, but as a showcase, it isn't the greatest run line, even with that great express run because it doesn't run that often, and is far from the showcase line.
I don't agree with you. The E provides one of the best express runs there is.
Only in Queens. The best express run, beginning to end, is the diamond Q.
I'm biased against the E because I just don't really like the lower end of the 8th Ave line. I like the E in Queens, but hate it in Manhattan.
I feel the same way about the E.
The 42nd Street station on the (A)(C)(E) is one of the most diapidated IND stations. But otherwise I don't see how it's any worse than the 6th Ave IND.
:-) Andrew
The 42nd Street station on the (A)(C)(E) is one of the most diapidated IND stations
Is the 42/8Ave station going to rehabbed as part of the whole Times Square complex rehab?
The 42nd Street-Eighth Avenue station is being rehabilitated at this very moment.
David
In the 80's, the mezzanine was rearranged and ramps were installed, presumably along with some other changes. Was that considered a rehab of sorts?
Yup...the station was rehabilitated a number of years ago, but it wasn't a full job -- the mezzanine was done and wheelchair ramps were installed (street access is through the Port Authority Bus Terminal). Similarly, DeKalb Avenue (Fourth Avenue Line, not Canarsie Line) was one of the first stations rehabilitated under the MTA Capital Program, circa 1983, and a full job is being done this time around. Another example would be 125th Street-Lexington Avenue.
David
When the initial rehabs were done, were there plans to ultimately come back and do a more complete job?
What about 125th IND? The floor tiles suggest that some sort of rehab took place at some time.
In the late 80's, 86th Street on the 1/2 (well, only the 1 at the time) received a display of artwork, and I've heard that spoken of as a rehab. Nothing else in the station was touched (a part-time SB entrance was added at 87th, but that was installed in conjunction with the construction of a new building upstairs). The station really could use a full rehab, with a new retro tiling job replacing the 50's extensions (as at the fabulous job at 66th and the somewhat elss fabulous job at 50th), and maybe even new entrances at the north ends of the platforms (but I'm not holding my breath, seeing as the even busier 50th Street still only has entrances at the far south end). I just hope the artwork isn't discarded; I especially like the depiction of a Redbird one stop up at 96th.
What about 125th IND? The floor tiles suggest that some sort of rehab took place at some time.
125th St was rehabbed in 1984, IIRC.
To my knowledge, there were no plans to come back and do a more complete job when those stations were rehabilitated in the early/mid-1980s.
As for 86th Street-Broadway, it's not on the list of stations to be rehabilitated under the 2000-2004 Capital Program. However, 96th Street-Broadway is (design award 2003, construction award 2004).
David
Where can you find a list of station rehabs in the 2000-2004 plan?
In the book describing the plan, which I received from the MTA in 1999. It's also on the Internet (Adobe Acrobat Reader is required to read the file):
http://www.mta.info/mta/pdf/bluepages.pdf
David
thanks!
I'm afraid you're both wrong. The best express run is the West Side IRT. I was on a 5 train that hit 50 on Sunday approaching the grade timer south of 50th. The Q is enjoyable but it doesn't move that fast.
That's not bad. I've been on a couple of 3 trains that hit 47 at that spot and kept right on going.
Was that a Redbird 5?
Yes, a Redbird 5. Apparently the R-142's don't run on the 5 on weekends yet, and certainly not when the 5 is diverted to Times Square, since Times Square isn't a preprogrammed R-142 terminal so the signs and announcements would all be wrong.
The R-142's are also limited to 40 mph.
I heard about that. Well, 40 is better than 30, anyway.
Times Square isn't a preprogrammed R-142 terminal
Whoa! Not even for the 7?
:-) Andrew
I'm sure that if the R-142 is programmed for the 7 at all, it has the 7's two usual terminals. It may or may not have the Willets Point and 111th short-turns.
But there is no way to program an R-142 to display itself as a 5 with a south terminus anywhere but Flatbush Avenue or Bowling Green (even though, aside from GO's, many scheduled 5 trains go to Utica and New Lots). An R-142 5 train to Times Square would either display the wrong south terminal or would have the signs disabled entirely.
I would say an additional criteria for a "showcase" line would be that it goes to major destinations, of interest to both tourists and commuters. I think that would make the 4 the winner, it goes through Yankee Stadium, UES shopping areas, GCT, Union Square, Downtown, and close to Prospect Park; and all on an express run. I also like the Broadway line.
I also like the Broadway line.
I also like the Broadway line. It is probably my favorite line in Manhattan. It will be even nicer when they complete restoring all the mosaics. (BTW are they going to do 49th St also? I have mixed feelings about if I would want them to restore the mosaics there or keep the glazed brick. It is a unique station.)
When the IND was first opened the A definitely was the showcase line of the subway system. But over the last 70 years, the maim business/commerical area of Manhattan has shifted to the east (the east side below 53rd St. was pretty crappy until after WWII), and the A is a bit off the beaten path as far as being in the center of where people want to go.
Until the Manny B switch, I would have voted for the D train as the showcase line -- it stops at well-known places like Coney Island, Greenwich Village, Rockefeller Center and Yankee Stadium, has two underground and two exterior sections, and runs express through the midtown area.
But with the D losing its lower half for now, I'd go with either the A again or the Q train on the B Division -- the A gets points for distance and variety, while the Q has the better midtown location. On the A Division, the 2 on the Seventh Ave. line suffers from the same problem right now as the D train (though for a far different reason, of course), so I would go with the No. 4 train, which like the D, is an express run through midtown Manhttan and hits a number of well-known places, from the Brooklyn Museum on the south to Yankee Stadium on the north end.
I have faith that the D will be back with a vengeance once the washed out tracks are back. I was truly proud to work that line.
The A is still considered a "showcase" line in that it interfaces with virtually every other line in the entire system. The only exception I can think of is the 6.
Here's a thought: how many other subway routes besides the A can you think of that have been immortalized in song?:-)
But you would not agree that the A was at its fastest when they ran the R-16's?
That was well before my time, so I can't comment on that. I've always been curious as to how swift the R-16s were when new and how they performed on the CPW express dash. I also understand that they were intermixed with R-10s occasionally in the same train.
The D train is immortalized in Bob Dylan's "Visions Of Johanna".
:-) Andrew
I forgot about that one. I stand corrected.
JLO's first album is On The 6.
Patti Rothberg put out an album called Between the 1 and 9, meaning the trains of course.
:-) Andrew
In the 80s, a group called "The Interborough Rhythm Team" came out with a rap song called "Watch the Closing Doors", a description of a ride on the uptown #1 train.
--Mark
How could everyone forget the whole R&B act called "D Train". (it was really one guy named James Williams). The first album showed the R-4 in the museum signed up D-via Houston. This made the D perhaps second in fame to the A. All of this at the same time I was riding to High School at Brighton Beach everyday. (another singer called himself "Newkirk" right after this).
All that was missing was a song or group named after the N train, flagship of the Broadway line.
Let's not forget that the 6 was immortalized in the movie "The Taking of Pelham 123"
Then you have the B in The French Connection, even though R-42s 4572-4573 didn't have B signs. However, if you watch the train going by as Gene Hackman is walking back to his apartment just before the chase and just before the sniper fire, you can see B signs on the car sides.
A piece of that film was also filmed under the M el between Seneca and Forest stations at Onderdonk Ave. If you look in the distance you can see the steeple of Saint Alyoisous ( I think spelt wrong) church on Onderdonk Avenue.
I'm not sure there is a showcase line.
For better or worse, the A train was given this title in 1992.
"Worst" by what measure? The latest stats I have handy are from November 2001, but that month the R-38 series was the system's most reliable at 244,140 miles between failures. The R-44 didn't do so well, at 63,725 miles between failures, but since a subway car goes 50,000-and-change miles a year that averages out to less than one failure per car per year.
David
There's more to a subway car than it's MDBF.
...which is why I asked by what measure. I'm still interested in knowing by what measure the R-38 and R-44 cars are the worst in the system. (I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the statement.)
David
While it might be nice for the railfan, to have one type of car on each line or even in a single yard makes things much easier for maintenance and for training crews. The T/Os will become more familiar with the equipment, as will the CIs. This is one of the advantages to making all future orders improvements upon the R142/R142A/R143. All cars will be very similar. That will lower the operating costs of the subway.
This is one of the advantages to making all future orders
improvements upon the R142/R142A/R143. All cars will be very similar. That will lower the operating costs of the subway.
Unfortunately it will also bring us back to the days when every "new" car was really just a variation of the R16/R17/etc (arguably going back as far as the R12). Everything up through the R36 was essentially the same thing, and even the R32 and R38 were essentially the same thing. Very boring.
:-) Andrew
As I said, it isn't necessarily favorable to the railfans. I really don't think the car designers thought much of us when they designed the R142 and R143. Of course, one of us could be a car designer, then it might be a different story.
Well, obviously. But that doesn't mean we can't be unhappy about R-series monotony.
I don't think the R142/R143 is a bad car design. I'd just rather it weren't the only design.
:-) Andrew
It would be nice if JMZ get some of a R32. And maybe mix some in L line with R143
Consistency = better service. Crews become more accustomed to operating one type of car moking for smoother operation. Car Inspectors become more familiar witht he mechanical aspects of the cars making for better maintenance. Just a thought about the practicalities involved...
Hi All,
Just wanted to thank the 21 people who have contributed $392 so far to the cause.
(The Amazon page doesn't update until a contribution has passed the 30 day refundable period.)
Only 8 people have opted to send me email notifying me of their contributions, so to the other anonymous ones, thanks!
-Dave
Not a bad take. Just to be curious, how much does the bandwidth of Subtalk cost you, and how on earth did you pay for it before?
Do you accept PayPal? I have some $ in a PayPal account and it would really help if I could ustilize that source of funding.
Let me get back to you on that. I had a paypal account, I'm not sure if it's still open. There was a lot of animosity toward Paypal when I took that survey 2 weeks ago so I didn't look into it any further as an option.
-Dave
Do I need to create an Amazon account to contribute or can I contrubute through Amazon without creating an account?
I'm not sure; there's a FAQ when you click on the banner; but I suspect you do.
All you need is a credit card, that's all I needed
There is something worth saying about your discussion board, vs. other discussion boards. It is easier for the non-technically proficient to use.
I just signed up for a different board on another subject (on Yahoo's system), and was automatically put into having every post e-mailed to me. I couldn't figure out how to change it, so I quit, but the e-mails keep coming. I've never been able to figure out how to use the American Planning Association Metro Chapter chat room.
This is easy. Even for me. Maybe you should sell the programming to some of these clowns.
I just signed up for a different board on another subject (on Yahoo's system), and was automatically put into having every post e-mailed to me. I couldn't figure out how to change it, so I quit, but the e-mails keep coming.
Once I found the webpage where the controls are, stopping the e-mail from a Yahoo "group" was very simple: 1) go to the group's home page; 2) click on the "edit my membership" link; 3) under Message delivery, choose "no e-mail"; 4) click on save changes.
I hope this helps.
This is easy. Even for me. Maybe you should sell the programming to some of these clowns.
The WebBBS script from which SubTalk is derived is available as shareware from http://awsd.com/scripts/webbbs/. Registration is only $57. I have several message boards that use WebBBS, which can be found at All Saints on the Web and The Nth Ward. I agree that it's one of the easier programs to use out there, and actually not too difficult to set up, either. (I had some teething problems at first, but they seem to be resolved now. Not bad considering I know almost nothing about CGI programming nor Unix systems.)
I guess it would make too much sense for Yahoo to use something like that... I've almost totally given up in disgust with Yahoo Groups. They'd rather load up their pages with advertising and implement absurd download quotas than do anything to make the forums easier to use. It was much better back when eGroups and Yahoo Clubs were in competition with each other, but of course Yahoo had to buy out eGroups and merge it with their Clubs, causing both to go down the toilet.
-- David
Chicago, IL
My pleasure Dave. That's the least I can do for all the hours enjoyment your web site has given me.. I'm sorry you weren't on the subway fan trips, I really wanted to meet you and say thanks. Whenever you are in Chicago, I will have space in my motor cab for you.
PATCO has been making some improvements in the Subway section of the line. These include a new fire supression system w/ large water pipes, track-bed sprayers and large pump systems in the mezzinine level. Furthermore, they have added a new work/emergency lighting system composed of Na-vapour lamps spaced every 10 or so columns on the side walls. The lights were installed on both the PA and NJ sides, but none of them were turned on.
I photographed the fire supression pipes at 8th & Market on Dec 28 (SubTalk SEPTA excursion). I subsequently asked a PATCO employee about it and he said there was no perceived need for it, but the money for it was available.
As you are aware, PATCO is in the process of replacing the above ground wooden ties with concrete ties.
PATCO fire suppression system
live wire in Chestnut Hill
The LIRR, which was to recieve 8 or so Amfleet coaches to be used on its reserve trains to Montauk in two different trainsets, canceleld the lease after the power systems of the Amfleets and the DM-30's were found to be incompatable.
Geee mike, you're getting slow on the trigger, here :/
This was dead a week ago. Supposedly, though, a set of amfleets was spotted around Jay the other month...
Chalk-up another one against the LIAR (and for the MTA for permitting this behavior) for buying unique, incompatible equipment. Had they bought Genesis and Shoreliners, there would be no problem.
Why did the MTA opt away from the Genesis units for the LIRR while they bought them for Metro North? The Genesis are proven engines, while the other current pieces of junk have had nothing buit problems.
May I take a guess?
Maybe the MTA felt that the distance a train to Montauk or other non-electrified areas in the LIRR, along with the frequencies of such trains, did not justify the costs of buying extra Genesis units for the LIRR but instead for solely MNRR purposes (where there are higher frequencies and distances to cover out of GCT).
The problem with this theory, if it is true, is that the MTA now has to have all of the DM-30s in the LIRR fleet overhauled becuase of EMDs shoddy construction. Which drives up the overall costs of the units vis-a-vis the Genesis locos.
That's my guess. Anyone else want to throw their 2 cents in?
It's simple risk spreading. We can't let GE have all the cards. Even Amtrak trialled out an F59 and now they have F59PHI on their California routes. Keep your suppliers honest. MTA was probably presuing the same strategat. As to why hey did not opt for trhe EMDs priven F-59 wioth shoes I du not know.l They coyuld ghave slimmed the F59 down to fit the gauge.
Alicia
Sorry avioyut the typeing I am a lil Tipsy6
The standard F59 would not fit under the canopies at Jamacia and possibly under the Penn Tunnels as well.
F59s are only as high as the standard F40. If the F40 will fit, so will the F59. Besides making things fit is a simple matter of sinking the underframe, mount the prime mover in the middle and putting the fuel tank elsewhere (like in the Genesis). It's a big design job, but not one that EMD couldn't handle. It would still have been cheaper and probably more reliable than using a non-standard design like DM30.
I like EMD units, but I also like the Genesis. Genesis units rarely fail (compared to the British-built products) and given that it's based on the C-44W, it's also based on a unit that many railroads consider superior value to the EMD SD-70 (at least on a per kW basis). Genesis works, and as a carrier that's what you need.
As for the acceleration, Mike you need to remember that trains are not subway cars. Whilst it would make sense for LIRR to procure something that will accelerate properly, to better a diesel locomotive than the Genesis or the F59 you would have to buy a DMU. You made the comment that even the F-40 accelerated quite impressively in the Keystone Corridor without the intermodals -- have you ever been behind a pair of Genesis which isn't overloaded with intermodal trailers? These are good units. I should know, I've been in a set of Genesis running lite engine.
If LIRR was really after the acceleration, they would have bought some six axle units. Most 4-axle units are adhesion limited. For the LIRR Montauk service and Hampdon reserved services (which is where I believe they need the dual modes), they don't need acceleration; they need 79mph operating speed.
Alicia
Heck, if LIRR used Genesis they wouldn't need two of em to go to Penn like Amtrak makes them use with the DM's. That in itself would justify the order since it increases the number of DM trains you could send to Penn.
Jamaica canopies are being removed and replaced now anyway, could have started that part of the project earlier to accomodate the F59.
Plus several overpasses were raised for the arrival of the C-1s, so they apparently don't mind resolving clearance issues.
The LIRR's official excuse was that GEs were too slow. IMHO, the whole project was a big mistake, as it's only inevitable more of the LIRR gets third rail, and dual mode operation turned out to be a dud anyway.
I see DM 30s running on third rail out as far as Mineola, though.
As for the F-59? It's simple - it's a DC traction dinosaur. Nobody in their right mind buys DC traction locomotives anymore, the slightly higher initial cost of AC is outweighed by the better performance and maintenance savings.
GE locos, in my experience, *are* dismally sllow, but diesels are slow, period...
"the slightly higher initial cost of AC is outweighed by the better performance and maintenance savings."
Did you analize those savings using a present value formula? Also AC is only better in terms of slow speed tractive effort preformance wise. That's great for coal trains, but generally insignificant for passenger locos. Locomotives should be kept simple. The more you improve the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain.
Mike, DC traction is dead. Nobody wants high maintenance equipment anymore. Checking brushes, turning commutators, cleaning contactors. Flashovers, insulation breakdown, operating restrictions of crossings, ground faults, etc etc etc...
High power solid state devices suited for RR traction are off the shelf things, the microelectronics to run them are cheap. In a few years, if it's not happened already, AC traction will have a lower initial cost than DC. Variable frequency AC drives are common as dirt today, heck - it's a built in feature on microcontrollers even.
No it isn't. CTA has ruled out AC traction on their next large order of cars, the 3500's. They are petrified of interference with their signal system.
>>CTA has ruled out AC traction on their next large order of cars, the 3500's. They are petrified of interference with their signal system<<
Does CTA have any scientific proof that their signal system would be comprimised ? How about a test train of AC traction cars to find out. Seems like they are afraid of their own shadow !
BILL "Newkirk"
Yes. AC Traction interfered with British signalling system on the ex-Southern like crazy. CTA employs a similar signalling technology. The threat is very real. Testing is painful and expensive. The benefit of AC traction may be minimal for CTA, so the pain is not worth enduring. DC traction is still alive and kicking, and it's less likely to go wrong.
Alicia
As far as the GE's being "too slow" that is EXACTLY why Amtrak bought the 21 F59PHI's out here on the west coast.
Remember, Amtrak got those 20 P32BWH's (500-519) a few years back, and they were originally all assigned to California (the state of California actually paid for a couple of them and still owns them, that's why 501 and 502 are "missing" from the Amtrak roster -- they became California Department of Transportation 2051 and 2052) When they worked the San Diegans, you threw your watch away because nothing ranon time due to the frequent stops, and some stiff grades out of some of the stations. (I know, Metro-North uses GE's with frequent stops -- but do they have the grades??? Not like some of the ones on the line out here...leaving Santa Ana, heading south, the line gains 275 feet of elevation in just a few miles -- with a stop halfway up the hill at Irvine, for example.)
The GE's lasted all of a couple months and the F40's were put back on the line.
Metra in Chicago borrowed a couple Amtrak 800's to test on their commuter services and they decided NOT to get the GE's for the same reason, too slow.
Genesis are proven pieces of junk that are overweight (even by MY standards) and have absolutely NO acceleration. Are you saying it would have been better to get engines that are reliably pieces of shit? EMD makes a historically high quality product, a product that lasts decades longer than comparable GE machines. If New York State had allowed EMD to build the DE/DM-30's in a standard EMD facility you wouldn't be seeing all of the structural problems.
Genesis are proven pieces of junk that are overweight (even by MY standards) and have absolutely NO acceleration. Are you saying it would have been better to get engines that are reliably pieces of shit?
Well, I'd say it's the lesser of two evils. I don't particularly like the Genesis units either, but I think they have less problems than the DM30's......Bring back the GP38's, MP15's, and the F's! LIRR waited so long to replace their trains, and when they finally do, they buy lemons!!!!
Why would you ever want light freight engines hauling passengers? Anything is a step up from a Geep or an MP-15.
Why would you ever want light freight engines hauling passengers? Anything is a step up from a Geep or an MP-15.
Hey, it did make the LIRR interesting. Anyway, I said that as a joke that they should bring them back. Obviously the LIRR NEEDED new trains. It's just a shame that when they finally replaced them they got stuck with lemons. But since you brought it up: What ever possesed the LIRR to purchase the GP38's, etc in the first place? They did buy them new also.
Actually, the GP-38's weren't too horrid. Slow accelerators, sure, but they're diesels. Diesels are slow by nature. I believe EMD gave the LIRR one heck of a deal on the GP-38s, and remember, this was at a time when third rail was going down everywhere. the LIRR was looking at turbine powered MUs (!) for diesel lines, and they had a surplus of old MU cars rebuilt into diesels.
I'm willing to bet the whole GP-38 and demotored MU cars thing was never intended to last as long as it did!
I thought the GP38's performed pretty good in passenger service considering that they are really freight engines. I really miss their thundering sound pushing or pulling on the trains as they went by!
I'm willing to bet the whole GP-38 and demotored MU cars thing was never intended to last as long as it did!
It's ironic that when they started replacing the trains, I was always disappointed when an old train with a cab F unit on the front, etc pulled into the station. Now if only the GP38's,etc would pull into the station with the pile of junk passenger cars, between the two engines! The LIRR trains at the end can almost compare with the disaster R16's at the end of their life! We didn't realize how good we had it (from a railfan perspective---definitely not a passenger perspective) with the old piles of junk riding the LIRR rails. If only I could be riding in the vestibule of a coach behind a rumbling GP38.........
I think you're right about the GP38/push-pull thing not being intended to last as long as it did.
LIRR did not own the GP38's...they were leased on a year-to-year basis, directly from EMD. At the time LIRR needed the power int he mid-70's, as the Alco parts were becoming more difficult to obtain, EMD made them a honey of a deal on the lease arrangements.
"as the Alco parts were becoming more difficult to obtain, EMD made them a honey of a deal on the lease arrangements."
Most of the Alcos were leased too. The GP38s were acquired at the end of the Alco lease. The last four or five Alcos were owned by LIRR, and those remained on the property after the others went their way.
Elias
A 2000HP GP38 did equally well with 11 Pullman Standards as a sickly DE/DM does with 6 bi-levels, which is their limit for one engine. Of course, Alco C420's pulled 17 cars of mixed P72's, P74's, and P54's every day over Cold Spring Hill without stalling.
I always find it interesting how locomotives are getting more powerful, but seem to be able to pull less and less. I think it is something to do with increased HEP demands.
It has nothing to do with HEP demands. I was once on a 4 car bi-level shuttle trains from Hicksvile to Port Jeff and I didn't think we would make the grade.
Increasing HEP demands, expecting a diesel to accelerate like an MU train. The DE/DMs probbably follow GM's stupid practice of an inverter per truck, Vs an inverter per wheel GE uses, but GM supposedly has the edge in truck technology.
Typically, passenger locomotives have tended to be lower TE anyway, saince they're geared for higher speeds and need to have stability at higher speeds too. Though i seem to remember reading the AEM-7's TE is higher than the F-40's, though it's a lighter locomotive.
So, control systems (or, today, software), help too. Of course, when it's SW, you just go back to the code monkeys and have them write something that works right...
Yep, I can remember 22-car trains on the weekends on the PJ line with ONE Alco C-420.
Of course, when it started from a stop, the black smoke went up to about the same altitude as the 707's leaving JFK.....
I used to ride an 11-car train that started in Speonk -- ten P54's and bar car 8553 (P74B1, ex-BAR). And MANY mornings we had just an RS-3!!!!! Theonly problem was the damned wet leaves on the tracks in the fall.....
"Yep, I can remember 22-car trains on the weekends on the PJ line with ONE Alco C-420."
Yup... and out here we pull 112 loaded coal cars with just two locomotives. (Used to use at least three when GP40-2s ruled the roost.)
Elias
"Of course, Alco C420's pulled 17 cars of mixed P72's, P74's, and P54's every day"
Yeah... but those *were* ALCOs!
====
The Genesis are proven engines
===
Now they are a proven design but when the LIRR was looking for new equipment, the Gennies were brand new and full of problems. That along with the LIRR skewing their testing of the engines so that they would fail didn't favor their being choosen.
The MTA Inspector General has a report on how the LIRR choose the equipment. It can be found at http://www.mtaig.state.ny.us/assets/pdf/per_rep/2000/2000-13l.pdf
First railroads condolidated interlocing towers into CTC systems, now they are consolidating bridgetender positions at movable bridges. Conrail SAA just eliminated the bridgetender on the Chester Movable Bridge on the Chester Secondary track. The functions were move about 30 miles north under the control of Delair Bridge tender. Train crews will have to stop at the signal and then radio/call Delair for a bridge closing.
Just for fun, which car classes would you like to see on your line that aren't usually seen these days?
For me, I'm tired of R46's and even R32s on Queens Blvd. So basically anything but those and the similar R38s and R44s would be a fun change. It would be pretty cool to see some slant R40s before they retire. And if they really want the (V) look like a shiny "new" line, the R46 ain't the car to do it! If R143's aren't available, they could at least run R68's.
Let's not get into the practicality of it now. This is just ranting for fun.
:-) Andrew
Well, I'd like to see some R9's on the F again.
I'll second that. Better yet, bring back the:
R-10s on the A
Or put some of the slants on the A.
Or the R30 on the C, where they should be now.
A slant R40 on the (A) is imortalized in the opening credits of Night Court.
:-) Andrew
A slant R40 on the (A) is imortalized in the opening credits of Night Court.
I remember that! I think it may be at the Jay St-Boro Hall Station.
The slants were a worthy successor to the R-10s. They held their own on the CPW express dash. I rode on a thoroughbred on Easter Sunday in 1978 which screamed all the way from 59th to 125th.
I'd put the new R-142's on the 7. Figure, the 7 has had old equipment for many years now, let it get something new.
ha !! ik heard the r-142s BROKE DOWN ......on the #7 !!!!!!!!!
lol !!!!!!!
they never ran on the 7, that was the 62As
Actually, that's incorrect... A test was done to see if they could run on the 7, they ran fine until they ran into a certain part of trackage, I believe near Willets Point. They had to be towed back via diesel!
what happened at that certain part of that trackage?
They simply stopped running, of course! 8-)
ok.....They never ran on the 7 IN PASSENGER SERVICE
ha !! i heard the r-142s BROKE DOWN ......on the #7 !!!!!!!!!
lol !!!!!!!
They'd have to run on the #7 before they could break down there.
David
From what I heard, R142's were tested on the 7 line...the third rail is incompatible with the equipment. I don't remember exactly how or why...but I know it had something to do with the third rail. Since I ride the #2 and occasionally the #5 (R142) and the 7 as well, the distance and height of the third rails of the 2 and 5 compared to the 7 is different...the 7-third rail looks a lot lower than that ofthe 2 and 5...correct me if I'm wrong :)
the 7-third rail looks a lot lower than that ofthe 2 and 5...correct me if I'm wrong
That makes sense because I heard that there was a problem with the shoe contacting the 3rd rail.
I'd like to have some R32s on the D
how bout installing railfan windows on the entire system ?
i would bring back redbirds on the # 2
run only redbirds on the #7
some redbirds on the #6
all r-62s would be railfan window only.......
are there any r32-38s on the F these dayz ???
thankz ......salaamallah
Last I checked, 5 out of 45 scheduled rush hour F trains are made up of R-32's. (The rest are R-46's.) I don't know if exactly 5 run each day, as there is some variation between the official assignment and reality (for instance, the R is supposed to be all R-46's, but it usually has a few R-32's, and the E is similarly supposed to be all R-32's, but it usually has a few R-46's.) Outside of rush hour, even on weekends, there are often a few R-32 F trains running.
htough no R38s
So would I.
Have the R68's ever run on Queens Blvd during their life? I can't picture them there. I know the N used to have R68's, but I think that was after it moved to Astoria, not while it ran on QB.
R-68s ran on the F when they were new. But only for testing.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks. I just can't picture them there. ANyone know of any photos online?
68s ran on QB after 9/11 when the Q went there.
There are pictures of R68's signed as Q's to 71AV-Continental in Harry Beck's site (Go to the R68 page) but I think those photos were not taken along QB.
Regards,
Jose
I didn't even remember that! Hopefully someone has some photos they could post.
And, as if to return the favor, the Brighton line got R-32's (and there was even an R-46 sighting).
I'm afraid I don't have many pictures. I was planning to spend much of October 28 gathering photographs, but it was announced a scant two or three days earlier that the regular service pattern would return early that morning.
yeah, i saw a R46 signed up as a (Q)(yellow)on an open cut brighton station
This time it is a complete failure.
Since I touched upon locomotives last time with the lend/lease column, I decided to make it a bit of a series and look at another aspect of locomotives. And if the spirit moves me, I may follow with another aspect of locomotives in the column to follow this one. It is hard to plan though as the writing spirit takes many cues from the railroad gods and we all know how unpredictable they can be. An event on May 12th inspired this very topic even though I had planned on writing about something else.
Many Dispatcher friends have told me there are several things they never want to hear when called by a crew. This would include word of being in the ditch (derailed), having a man or woman on the crew down, being involved in a collision with a motor vehicle, striking a pedestrian and having a locomotive down. There are others as well, but maybe we’ll save them for when I decide to do a piece about Dispatchers. While the locomotive failure is generally not catastrophic like the other items, it can be very bad. Actually, it can be a catastrophe of its own in many regards. We’re going to examine the impact and ramifications of en route locomotive failures.
Like an automobile or truck, there are many, almost countless problems that can develop with a locomotive. And with the move to high tech locomotives, there are newer and more high tech things that can now go wrong. It seems that just when I think I cannot have anything new go wrong with a locomotive, something does indeed, rear its ugly head. And it does tend to my job just a little more nuts than it already is, although it does make it interesting and certainly never dull or routine.
Since I mentioned inspiration for writing about a particular topic, I should start of by discussing the situation that occurred on May 12th. We were coming north on train 337, Manifest, Memphis to Waterloo. It was the fabled dark and stormy night. The rain was coming down in torrents driven by a very strong wind. At times, the rain was coming down sideways. There was a great deal of lightning and thunder to go along with all the other doings in the atmosphere around us. All of this weather combined to reduce visibility to about one hundred feet or so at times. Still we plugged along though. After all, there are no rain delays in railroading.
I had the IC 1023, an SD70 as my lead unit. While it was relatively dry inside, I did have a leak around the top of my front windshield that was allowing for a constant trickle of water to cascade right down the very center of the inside of the window. A periodic wipe with a paper towel cleared the water away for a brief moment.
Near Buckley, IL there was a tremendous flash of lightning all around us. It was so intense and bright I had to close my eyes for a few moments. About this time the alarm bells began to sound indicating some sort of failure on one of my two locomotives. A quick glance at the computer screen showed "High Voltage Ground" on the screen. This means there is a problem with the high voltage system on this unit. When a high voltage ground occurs (referred to as ground relay trouble), the locomotive involved normally immediately drops the engine RPM’s back to idle and the unit quits loading amperage for tractive effort. While the unit did quit loading, it was still revving in the Run 8 position in which I had the throttle set. This was highly unusual.
I don’t know if lightning struck the train, the rails, or the locomotives. I did not find any burn spots on the 1023 from contact. It is highly possible there was stray voltage from a nearby strike. I have been in several situations in my life where I was close at hand to a lightning strike including being in a house that was struck and next to a telephone pole that was struck. In both cases there was noise, a very loud pop.
I attempted to reset the ground by hitting the reset button on the control stand. No response, the bells just continued to ring. I isolated the unit (took the unit off line by moving the isolation switch from the "Run" position to the "Start/Isolate" position. This prevents this unit only from responding to the throttle while allowing any and all other units in the locomotive consist to continue to respond to the throttle. This move silenced the bells but I still could not reset the ground fault. I attempted to cut out traction motors using the computer only to have the computer freeze up on me. Hmm, just like on the home PC and laptop. Bill Gates is everywhere!
While all of this is transpiring, I am still moving. We have lost a considerable amount of speed from the 52 MPH we were traveling as we now have only one working locomotive. I mention this fact as the failure can and does create a distraction for the Engineer. While tending to the failure, I can easily lose track of things going on in front of me affecting the safe movement of my train. This is when it pays to have a knowledgeable and experienced Conductor. They can lend a great deal of assistance, especially if the failure occurs on a trailing unit in the locomotive consist. They can go back and take a look and relay what they find via the radio so we may not have to stop. Some can also reset and restart locomotives as well, another asset.
I had to slow down to 10 MPH at Gilman for a speed restriction there. This was when I learned of yet another problem. The air brake system on our SD70’s is a computerized electronic system manufactured by WABCO called the EPIC 3102. I believe EPIC is the acronym for Electronic Pneumatic Integrated Control. In any event, when I released the brakes on the train after slowing down, the brakes would not release and we wound up coming to a stop.
Being that we could not move at all, I was pretty much forced to attempt something to solve our problems right this minute. I rebooted the computer for the locomotive and also rebooted the computer for the air brake system. In both cases, the systems reset, restarted and came back up. The air compressors began pumping air into the brake system, the ground relay problem reset and we were back in business. There were no more problems with the power after all of this.
I had mentioned the Dispatchers really hate to hear about locomotive failures. This can quickly wreak havoc in their plans. A failed unit means one of several new problems. Loosing a unit on a train that is already struggling can result in the train stalling as there is now, insufficient power to even pull it along, especially on the grades. If a high priority train loses a unit, the result is loss of speed and the inability to maintain maximum speed. In this situation, back up plans must be initiated to overcome the problems. The train with the failed unit may pick up a replacement unit en route, say where an outlying local or road switcher job has either tied up their power or may still be working. Or the train may meet another train along the way and get a unit from the train they are meeting. Other trains such may simply be forced to operate at slower speeds for the rest of their journey.
The loss of a unit can and often does affect the meets the Dispatcher has set up in his big picture. Knowing how well a train is running and who is running it all play factors in setting up meets. When a train loses a unit, much of this plan goes to the same place as plan A. And as you have learned from reading this column, plan A never had a chance anyway.
Over the years, I have swapped entire motive power consists as well as a unit or two with another train owing to motive power failures. On one trip back in my Wisconsin Central days we departed Fond du Lac eastbound with three units. One of the units failed before we were out of the corporate limits of Fond du Lac. We met a westbound at Valley Siding right outside of town and swap the bad one for one of his good ones. Around Rugby Junction, WI we lost another unit. Again, we swapped out with a westbound we were meeting there. By the time we reached Duplainville, WI, we lost our third original unit. Again, we swapped with another westbound. Now, we had three completely different units than what we left Fond du Lac with.
In some cases when a unit fails, it is a problem that can be solved without any outside assistance. Breakers can be reset, fuses replaced or buttons on protective devices pushed back into place resetting them as well. If there is a failed traction motor, it may be cut out and the unit can operate without it (or a pair if wired in this manner) at reduced horsepower. The newer, high tech units are designed or retrofitted with a system that allows them to be able to continue without the reduced horsepower, but they do lose the higher tractive effort at lower speeds.
Should a unit overheat due to low cooling water levels, water can be added en route to solve the problem. I have done this more times than I care to remember over the years. This can be accomplished with a trackside water hose, such as one located next to a railroad building or shanty along the way, or with assistance from a local fire department. Again, I have done both. In one instance, it must have been a slow news day in Maine. We lost a unit as it was low on water. We really needed this unit or we would have stalled on several of the grades along the line. The Dispatcher notified me that he had arranged a local fire department to meet us and bring water to refill the failed unit.
Upon arrival at the meeting point with the fire department, several local TV stations from Portland with their "Live Action Cameras" were already there (before the fire department even) and already well into the process of setting up for what they perceived to be a really big story. The fire department showed up right after we did, without the lights and sirens going. I explained to the head fire guy what we needed to do and they pulled their truck up along side the failed locomotive. They ran their two inch hose over to me, I placed it into the opening in the water tank (known as the expansion tank on the railroad) and they turned on the water. The tank was filled in just a couple minutes and that, as they say, was that.
A couple of the reporters that showed up approached and asked about my engines being on fire. I hated to, but I had to disappoint them by telling of simply low water in this one unit. Sorry boys, no fire, Undaunted though, they did manage to make a story out of it. The NBC affiliate in Portland showed how the fire department had to assist a train in order for them to make it. They even had "action" video. All of Maine got to see the backside of my front as I was holding the hose while the water was being pumped into the expansion tank. Fifteen more minutes of fame.
In some cases, trains are operated with a single locomotive. Oftentimes switch runs, locals and even through freight trains can be seen with a single locomotive. Now should this unit fail, it quickly means you are dead on the rail. You cannot move as your only source of tractive effort is now broken. Ironically, I observed this happen this day with a Norfolk Southern trackage rights train here on the CNIC. Southbound train 69V, a steel train that operates between Midwest Steel in Portage, IN and National Steel in Granite City, IL lost his only locomotive today near Harvey at the north end of Markham Yard. It was an 8700 series Dash 9-40C locomotive. This quickly brought their trip to a screeching halt. A northbound NS train was approaching and he handed them off one of his units. 69V did take a big delay though. Had this northbound NS train not been in the picture, a cab would have been sent out to pick up the crew and ferry them back over to NS’s Calumet Yard on Chicago’s Southeast side to get another locomotive to bring back and couple onto their train in order to continue their journey. And yes, I’ve done this too. HarveHH
I had this happen one time on the Wisconsin Central. I was working train T219, the Chicago to Green Bay intermodal train. In those days, the intermodal business was far less than adequate. In fact, there really wasn’t enough to run it, and its eastbound counterpart 218, as stand alone trains owing to all the start up troubles. These trains were not being operated regularly and certainly not in a timely manner owing to the early motive power and manpower shortages. To make the train operation profitable, we were also handling a block of cars to and from Conrail. We might have eight or ten trailers and thirty something manifest freight cars. We also normally got a single SD45 locomotive for power.
The night in question had us coming back to Fond du Lac out of Canal Street. They had just re-opened the segment between Tower B-12 in Franklin Park and Madison Street. This line had been closed for several weeks as the line was single tracked and the bridge raised over the CNW to accommodate their operation of double stack containers on all of the tracks which passed underneath the WC line. The new single track line was elevated substantially in a short distance to accommodate the bridge that was raised several feet. We had dubbed this elevation "Mount Burkhardt." The grade was significant. We all pretty much agreed the concept to single track this portion in exchange for trackage rights through Global One was absurd. And the very short and steep grade was quickly becoming a major pain-in-the-ass.
I had the 6517, a former BN SD45 with a handful of trailers and about forty three manifest freight. After stopping at the base of the mount to line the switch for our movement onto the single track we began our assault of the grade. Normally, a single SD45 with this tonnage in tow could make the grade without any problem. Not tonight though. As we started to climb I could not gain any speed at all. In fact, I stalled. This unit simply would not pull. At 5 MPH, this unit was barely loading seven hundred amps. It should have been loading over twelve hundred at this speed. This unit was barely pulling its own weight yet alone that of the train. We stalled about halfway up the grade.
So the call was made to Schiller Park letting them know of our current dilemma. There was a transfer job working so they would be sent to the rescue. We had to wait for some time as they were engaged in chores that had to be finished before they could come to rescue us. In the meantime there we were, dead on the rail. Eventually the cavalry arrived and helped drag us over the hill.
I had problems with this very same unit another time, only we didn’t stall. We just struggled along at about 20 MPH. Anytime I took the train above this speed I developed excessive wheel slip problems. It became the classic "uphill slow, downhill fast" situation. I could not make a run at any grade as the wheel slip problem reared its ugly head and we would lose even more speed. Now even though I had reported this problem to the Dispatcher who, in turn notified the Chief Dispatcher of our plight, it seems either the problem or me (take your pick) were not deemed credible. Irregardless of the fact I could not come close to making track speed, that "they" fellow employed in the network operation centers of all railroads had me stop and pick up seventeen loads of lime at Rugby Junction. We struggled and crawled up Lomira Hill about 1 or 2 MPH. It only seemed like it took forever to make that climb.
If a train stalls account losing a unit, any and all trains in that region will get delayed. Should another train have to cut away from their train to assist the one that has stalled, they too get delayed. Any other trains in the region of the stalled will also see delays.
I stalled several times on Byron Hill in my Wisconsin Central days after losing a unit. The end result was us having to double the hill. This meant taking the train up in two piece and putting it together back at the top of the hill. This little feat usually took no less than two hours.
On numerous occasions over the years I have had to assist stalled trains. The assistance varied from coupling onto their locomotives and helping pull them up, coupling onto the tail end of their train and pushing them or just giving them one of my units. On a couple of occasions we had to jump start a dead unit that had dead batteries. This required the assistance of the roundhouse with jumper cables as these are not carried on locomotives.
As I have mentioned, some failures can be easily remedied by the Engineer. Some of these failures include low water, overheating, tripped breakers, blown fuse, high voltage ground, failed headlights, tripped lube oil button, tripped overspeed on the governor and various minor electrical problems. There are many other problems that are major and cannot be repaired with a reset of protective device. These would include a failed whistle, blown turbocharger, a crankcase explosion, a broken crankshaft, overheated wheel or support bearing, locked wheel, slipped pinion or a main generator flashover.
If there is plenty of cooling water and lube oil and one of the protective devices associated with these has popped, the button can be reset and the locomotive restarted. If the 150 amp auxiliary generator fuse trips, the fuel pump quits operating and of course, the unit dies. Changing the fuse remedies this problem. Some electrical problems may cause a breaker to trip in the high voltage cabinet. Again, the breaker can be reset.
Overheating can be related to more than just low cooling water. The shutters that help regulate the engine temperature may get stuck in the closed position. These shutters open and close to keep the engine of the locomotive within the prime operating temperature range. This prime range allows the engine to run more efficiently and help keep exhaust emissions at reasonable levels. The shutters are controlled using temperature sensors and solenoids. They open and close using an air powered cylinder. Should there be a failure in any of these components, the shutters will not open and the unit will start to run hot. Operating the manual shutter by-pass valve will open the shutters and keep them open. While this makes the engine less efficient, it will keep the locomotive in service.
Above the radiators and shutters are the cooling fans. These fans draw air through the radiators just like on your car or truck, only on a larger scale and with more volume. If one or more of the cooling fans fail, there is little, if anything the Engineer can do in the field.
If a high voltage ground occurs, oftentimes the problem is with one of the traction motors. A traction motor on a four axle unit or a pair of motors on a six axle unit can be cut out. These motors are wired in pairs of one and six, two and four and three and five. On the newer high tech six axle units, a single traction motor can be cut out on them as well. Pre-high tech units so equipped have a knob located on the high voltage cabinet to cut out the motors. The high tech units and some older units rebuilt with a microprocessor use the computer to cut out the motors. Old units like GP7’s and GP9’s required you to enter the engine room behind the high voltage cabinet to cut out the motors. This required you to be stopped adding even more delay.
Some railroads like MoPac and Norfolk Southern (on their pre high tech units) did not believe in cutting out traction motors. Their units were not equipped with traction motor cut out knobs. If these units would develop ground relay trouble, they were simply isolated and then just along for the ride.
Air brake system failures on the locomotives may also occur. They are more prevalent in the winter months as sometimes the system freezes up. Like many other Engineers, I have had the automatic brake valve freeze up. Depending upon how frozen up it is, a fussee may be used to thaw it out. More often than not, the mechanical department needs to be called out or the unit has to be switched out.
If the crankcase pressure button is tripped, the unit is normally down for the count. The protective device has detected pressure in the crankcase of the engine and this is very bad. The protective device immediately shuts the engine down to prevent it from serious damage. The rules are very firm on not restating a unit when crankcase pressure has been detected and the button has popped. However, I have been told in the past to restart the unit and place it back on line to see if the unit will run or fail again. One Engineer I know told me of being instructed to restart a unit under such circumstances and shortly thereafter the unit blew up sending several pistons onto the catwalk. Obviously, it tripped for a reason.
Headlight failures can be tricky. If one bulb burns out you can proceed normally. The bulb does have to be replaced before the next daily inspection though. If both bulbs fail, they will have to be replaced promptly unless the unit is equipped with ditch lights. All locomotives used in through freight service are required to have ditch lights. They became a requirement in the US in the mid 90’s. They have been required in Canada for years prior to this. Should the headlights fail but the ditch remain functioning, you may proceed at normal speed to the next terminal. Should the ditch lights fail but the headlights keep working, you may proceed, but you must reduce your speed to 20 MPH while approaching and passing road crossings.
Before ditch lights were mandated, if you had a total headlight failure, you had several options available. If it was bulb failures, you could simply replace the bulbs. If it was something major such as a headlight resister grid burning up, there was no fix available to you in the field. You either had to switch out the units or follow the operating rules for proceeding with a headlight failure.
In 1989 while at the WC, I had a resistor grid burn up on my lead unit. I lost the headlights immediately. It was the middle of the night and very dark as there was no moon in the sky. Fortunately for us, we were very close to an industry spur in Burlington, WI. I was able to get stopped before getting past it and we simply switched our locomotives around. We were fortunate to have both units coupled elephant style (pointed in the same direction), so there was not a major problem or hassle here.
The cab heaters have been known to fail in the dead of winter. Being that most cabs are not well insulated, they don’t take long to get cold. And they can get really cold really quick. In January 1980 while I was hostling with the MoPac, there was quite the episode involving just that, failed cab heaters.
On a brutally cold morning, a southbound train lost the cab heaters and stopped at Grant Park, IL to swap out the units rather than freeze to death. They only had two locomotives, a pair of SD40’s. Instead of being coupled elephant style they were back to back with the cabs facing the opposite direction. When switched out, the new lead unit was running with the long hood forward. We commonly refer to this as running "backwards."
In the meantime, a northbound coming into Momence lost their air while coming across the Kankakee River. They had not called Pence Tower to notify him of their situation. They also did not protect their train as required by the flagging rules in effect. Here comes the southbound at a high rate of speed with his new lead unit running backwards. It was soon discovered the reason the northbound was in emergency, he was derailed. The southbound hit the derailed car causing both locomotives and several cars to derail. The locomotives wound up in the frigid river below with both the Engineer and Brakeman sustaining injuries. The locomotives were damaged extensively.
I was told by a company official and several other people who were at the wreck sight that if the lead unit was facing forward with the low short hood leading, the crew would almost certainly have been killed. They caught a huge break as the long hood end of the lead locomotive took the brunt of the blow. Had the short hood end have been leading, they would have been right there against the point of impact.
This was one time when a failure led to success in a very bizarre and roundabout sort of way.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
Since Dave has started charging for this website, is it time we asked Mr Santucci if he is happy about his post being distributed on here?
I'm not suggesting that Dave is wrong in soliciting donations for this website, but Mr Santucci has a distribution restriction specifically banning "paysites" to carry his work -- whether this means member-only paysites or simply ones that solicit donation, I am not sure.
Over to you, Tuch
Dave isn't charging for SubTalk. He's asking for donations.
Transit Police Get First Woman Chief
05-20-02
(Washington) -- The Metro Transit Police is getting its first female top cop.
Deputy Chief Polly Hanson will take over as police chief on July first. Hanson is a 21-year veteran of the force, and a D.C. native who graduated from Wilson High School, then went on to Temple University and Johns Hopkins.
She will be the second woman to take over a major local police force this year. Teresa Chambers was sworn in as the first female chief of the U.S. Park Police back in February.
Hanson is taking over from Barry McDevitt who retires next month.
I must really be out of it. When I looked at the message list, I thought the header said "Transit Police Get First Human Chief!"
Whaddya think they are, a bunch of robocops ;~}
It's about time.
E_DOG
Beverly Harvard (Chief of Atlanta PD) will be pleased.
I overheard on the bus that there was a problem on the LIRR Oyster Bay branch in Glen Cove on Sunday around 7:30pm. A train was stuck and there was no service.
They said that no alternative bus service was provided. When there is an LIRR outage isn't bus service normally provided for stranded commuters? Well that person had to take a $27 cab ride back to Hempstead!
I guess the LIRR Oyster Bay branch is really something to depend on!
That's the way it is here, down in the boondocks. Down in the boondocks!
That's the side of town that the NIMBY's live. Down in the boondocks!
A North Shore remix of the classic oldie.
I overheard on the bus that there was a problem on the LIRR Oyster Bay branch in Glen Cove on Sunday around 7:30pm. A train was stuck and there was no service.
They said that no alternative bus service was provided. When there is an LIRR outage isn't bus service normally provided for stranded commuters? Well that person had to take a $27 cab ride back to Hempstead!
You have to be skeptical of things you overhear. Yes, it's possible that the LIRR just left people stranded with no "bustitution," but not likely. In my experience there's always been some alternative service provided in cases of long delays.
True. I had a customer at Union Square years ago complain that he had been waiting 20 Minutes for a train. I didn't have the "heart" to tell him while he was complaining to me a train came and went. He runs to the turnstile and back to the booth and now he says he waited 35 minutes.
Who ever said "The customer is always right" didn't work for TA.
Yeah I find it hard to believe there was no substitute bus service for that incident, but this is the Oyster Bay branch so who knows. I'm more interested in what went wrong with the train.
I guess sometimes units just die out, and most LIRR Oyster Bay bi-levels operate with one loco only, so if it dies, you're stuck.
I would guess they'd have to get another loco to tow the disabled train to the yard, and have the track clear for the next train.
Well at least it didn't happen on a dual-mode in the East River tunnels. Yikes what a mess that would've been.
Around 1pm this afternoon i saw R62A 2451-2455/2466-2470 running on #2 line heading downtown & i wonder why they using R62A on #2 line?
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
oh ??? runnin' express or local???
Local, unfortunately.
With the way Car Equipment has had to shift R62As from one yard to the next, it's not surprising that this set of R62As would end up on the #2. As a matter of fact, there are several R62As stored up at Unionport, signed up either as #2s or #3s. It was mentioned in previous posts that there are a couple of AM and PM #3 specials that run up to East 180th, either because of this or as a result of this. From time to time these trains will be signed up as #2s and run to 241st.
Does anyone know if there will be any G/Os on Memorial Day? Specifically on the 5. I have to get to Whitehall Street by 10:30 for the BMT fantrip.
Look for yourself! The TA publishes planned service reroutes here.
That page is updated every Friday, so check between Friday and Monday.
They try to avoid work on holidays. Even the Brighton G.O. is not in effect this weekend but will return for the next two weekends following Memorial Day.
But the Q is supposed to skip Atlantic Ave in BOTH DIRECTIONS this weekend..........
Staircase or mezzanine work? Platform work usually only blocks off one side of the platform (and often requires that no trains pass on that side).
DeKalb is going to be a madhouse. I know the north exit is normally closed on weekends, but is the mezzanine kept open for transfers? If not, it should be opened this weekend.
Skipping Altantic is 100% better then terminating at Prospect Park if you ask me.
And yes I have to go to Atlantic a lot on weekends.
Oh, no question there. It just seems odd to me.
Not if they are working on the stairs which are falling apart with the rest of the place.
I think the 5 has one already posted on the MTA's website.
The 4 and 6 are running express downtown between 125th and 42nd on Saturday and Sunday. The A and C are running express downtown between 125th and Canal on Saturday and Sunday as well. This means the only north-south line north of 59th Street with full local service is the 1 and 2. Should be interesting.
But the D will be filling in for the C on the CPW local.
I think this past weekend had more than its share of confusing GO's, between the major IRT GO in Manhattan, the major BMT GO in Brooklyn, and the D via 8th Avenue. I'm sure lots of Brighton passengers bound for Times Square thought they'd be smart and take the Franklin shuttle to the 1/2, only to find that the 1 wasn't running in Brooklyn and the 2 wasn't going to Times Square after all.
I just saw the thing about the D. The D is running from W4 to 145th on the A. D service on CPW doesn't exactly do me much good.
When are they going to extend the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line to Hoboken and the Newark City Subway past Franklin Avenue. Or, whatever they call that station now.
I heard late September for a tentative date for HBLR to Hoboken.
Also, a Newark City Subway extension from Branch Brook Park (Franklin Av) to Grove St in the coming months.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
I could have sworn they had said November of LAST YEAR as the completion date.
Is midday NCS service any better than every 15 minutes now?
And what about Montclair Connection? They said spring, which is almost over!
What is the Montclair Connection?
Track connection between the Montclair Branch and Boonton Line that will allow BL trains to run on the MB and eventually into NYC via Midtown Direct.
There is now some sort of road work on Glen Ridge Av in Montclair that had them shut down the street for a block ... this combined with whatever the hell they're digging on Bloomfield Av, not near the tracks.
But the new station looks really good (not finished yet, though).
I believe the work is substantially done. It's a matter of testing, training and putting together a service schedule.
I don't know if this issue was mentioned before, but if these contracts are to replace the R38, R40-slant, R40M, R42, and R44, are they going to replace just the R44s on the A line or all R44s, including the ones used by the Staten Island Railway, i.e., the R44SIs?
Carlton
Cleanairbus
First off: R-160A?????
Secondly, the base order is for 660 cars, to replace the R-38, slant R-40, and Coney Island-overhauled R-42 series. There has also been talk of replacing the 10 R-32s that were overhauled by General Electric, but there is a question now as to whether that will be done, because the cars' problematic air conditioning systems have been replaced.
The order is to include options that would bring the total to as many as 1,700 cars. However, to my knowledge, replacement of the R-44 (subway OR Staten Island) is not part of that procurement. Rather, these cars would replace the R-40M, Morrison-Knudsen R-42, and R-32 series.
David
Are the R-40M's really in better condition than the R-38's? They don't seem that way to this layman.
To me the 38's definitely look in better shape than the R40's, but also "what do I know......"
Please excuse my ignorance here....what is the status of the R160 order? Is it definite? Has it been signed? Or is it still in the "serious talking" phase?
It's a negotiated procurement. Contracts haven't been signed yet.
David
I always get the R32's and R38's mixed up. Not by looks, but by condition. One of them is in great shape and people here and on "the other side of the tracks" message boards have said that they will outlive all subsequent cars. Which is that: the R32's or the R38's?
R32 :D
Thanks.
I saw a report not too long ago that basically said that the SIR R44s are going to be overhauled and not replaced, a process that will begin in the not-too-distant-future.
Ok, thanks for the clarification...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
I might be going to Coney Island on Friday if the weather holds. I'll wear my "W" shirt so anyone from "Sub Talk" will know who I am. Look for me in the front car of the train. I'll probably ride the "W" train to Coney Island if I can. I might also ride the "Q".
#3 West End Jeff
What time? Monday-Friday this week and next (except Memorial Day), 10am to 2:30pm, SB W trains are running on the Sea Beach (probably express).
Don't let Fred see your post!!
Hopefully he won't see my post.
#3 West End Jeff
Whetther or not you favored these projects or thought them necessary at all...
It's fairly obvious that, for different reasons, both the Second Avenue Subway and the new Penn Station will not be built.
Regarding the 2nd Avenue, the city will be in a possible $5 billion deficit in the coming decade; meanwhile, despite having the support of Congress for a new Penn in the Farley Bldg, the Post Office will simply not give up its space in the Farley Building and is playing a waiting game until Amtrak gives up and goes away.
Meanwhile, there will be no new Yankee Stadium (there was no need for one) and no new Shea Stadium (the need for it was rather more urgent, but the present Shea can be shored up). I'd like an overhaul like they did in Anaheim, but even that much doesn't seem to be in the picture.
While the 1990s was a time of grandiose plans and great dreams, the 2000s seem to be, once again, a time of retraction and, if we're not careful, deterioration. Public transit, libraries and sanitation are the first things to go in times of chronic deficits.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The economy will pick up -- resoundingly soon we hope-- but hopefully not until just after the November election where the Democrats decisively retake Congress.
There has been talk about a 2012 Olympic bid. Even Westchester, NJ, CT and LI could get into that. If the Republican and Democratic politicians could get together for once, the 25% or so of the US that this represents in the House of Representatives could actually do something. Look at the farm bill they just passed. Just imagine what a Greater New York transit bill could do.
The 2nd Avenue subway seems to be a victim every time the economy changes. It has happened over and over. THe original IND plan was killed because of than, the 60's-70's plan. Can the 90's plan for 2nd Ave also be falling.....the signs show it probably will.
As for Penn Station. I hope the new station gets built. I get sick anytime I see a picture of the "real" Penn. How the sick minds of the 60's allowed that to be destroyed is beyond me. I was born in the early 70's, so I never had the pleasure of walking through the real Penn. Any replacement would be a sorry attempt, but the post office has got to be better than the basement of MSG.
While the 1990s was a time of grandiose plans and great dreams, the 2000s seem to be, once again, a time of retraction and, if we're not careful, deterioration. Public transit, libraries and sanitation are the first things to go in times of chronic deficits.
I would caution against paying too much attention to deficits as situations change. It was less than a decade ago that we kept hearing about how the federal deficit was going to keep growing and growing far into the future. Yet only a few years later there was a big surplus. Much the same can happen at the state and city level, although it might take a bit longer for changes to occur. In other words, just because the city's running a big deficit right now, doesn't mean that will always be the case.
According to SEPTA's website, the Market-Frankford Line in West Philly is going to continue using shuttle buses in place of trains on weekends at least through the end of next month, with no service at all on Memorial Day weekend. Does anyone know if or when regular weekend El service will resume in West Philly? Before the construction started on the West Philly El, I heard or read somewhere that the bulk of the construction was going to take place at night, thus avoiding service interuptions. Since I visit my friends in West Philly on weekends, I find the El shutdown a major inconvenience. As a result, I've been driving to West Philly to see my friends. I don't mind driving, in fact, I've driven to my friends' a few times when the trains were running on weekends, but I prefer taking the train most of the time.
Looks like it will be out of service on weekends until late June, according to SEPTA's website. Here's the URL for the announcement:
http://www.septa.com/schedule.cgi?route=MFL&day=1
I live in West Philly, so it's an inconvenience for me, too. I can't wait for service to resume.
Of course, I live near the trolley lines, so I have alternatives.
Mark
Noticed a lot of smoke tonight at about 11:00 PM at the mezzanine of Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Smelled like something was/had been burning. Asked a Transit Police officer if there had been a fire and he said he didn't know. Actual train platforms seemed smoke-free. Anyone know what happened?
Maybe the hot dog stand reopened.
Maybe the hot dog stand reopened
Serving franks made from animals caught trackside. Tastes just like chicken ;-)
Railroad kill, perhaps?:-)
Yesterday, I asked the token clerk for an updated map and she gave me the "March" Edition. Is there any "May" edition? I know that TA update their maps every two months. AND Its already 3rd quarter of May with a week left be4 June.
I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule of how often a new map is released. Why should there be a May edition? I don't think there have been any changes, even minor ones, since March. Seeing how much the map printing department had to spend in September and October to keep the public informed of the rapid changes, I think it would be wise to save money and continue issuing the March edition until it becomes obsolete (probably around September).
How does the March edition differ from previous editions? Does it list the old World Trade Center Station on the E line as being open?
- Lyle Goldman
"Does it list the old World Trade Center Station on the E line as being open?"
I think that is precisely what the March edition does show. Incidentally, when I asked for a map at the 42/6 station a week ago, I was given the January one, which shows the E line WTC station closed.
Fytton
Yes. I think it's also the first edition to show the W running local in Queens (but the January edition may also have that -- I'd have to check).
"I think it's also the first edition to show the W running local in Queens (but the January edition may also have that -- I'd have to check)."
The January 2002 map *does* show the W running local to Ditmars.
Two months since the March edition came out, and not one train I've been on has it. A few have the January edition, but most have the November. So now a casual rider will think that the WTC (E) stop is closed, and that the (W) runs express in Queens.
:-) Andrew
For anyone interested, there is a whole pullout of the WTC reconstruction in today's Newsday. There are some very interesting photos of the Greenich line station and all that is left of the Cortlandt Street station....a stairway. There is also a diagram of the new proposed "transit hub".
Here's a link to the "new transit hub" diagram: I couldn't find the photos of the Greenich line progress on their website, and the stairway at Cortlandt street, maybe someone else can. But it is in the paper, and here's the link to the diagram:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-wtc-bzny0521.story
Does anyone know why there are so many 1 trains on the 7th avenue line, yet not as many 2's? It is kind of annoying to see that there are like 3-4 number 1's back-to-back, and only one number 2 train every once in a while...The 1's always seem to run empty in Brooklyn, yet in Manhattan they're packed...The number 2 is ALWAYS crowded...especially in Manhattan. It was also the same when the 3was still coming to brooklyn...was always empty, and ran in groups of 2-4 at a timebefore a 2 train showed...Any ideas?
Before 9/11, 2's and 3's generally alternated, with a bit more 2 service than 3 service. I don't know why you regularly saw more 3's than 2's; I didn't.
Now, there are more 1's than 2's to satisfy the demand on the 1 line between 103rd and 137th, which is greater than the demand on the Nostrand line and doesn't have the 5 to help out. Some of those 1 trains turn at Chambers, but the track arrangement at Chambers only allows for a few trains to turn per hour, so there's no option but to run the rest to Brooklyn, even if they're not needed there.
As for crowds, between 96th and 42nd, the 1 is perhaps a hair more crowded than the 2, but the difference is negligible; there's such turnover at 42nd that the (lighter) 1/2 crowding south of there is essentially indistinguishible. Expresses are usually less crowded than locals, especially northbound and especially 1 and 2 trains bypassing local stops.
Since 9/11 both the 1 and 2 lines have been running there pre 9/11 headways with the 1 running between 4 and 6 minute headways(depending on time of day) and the 2 staying with 8-10 min. headways. That's why you have more 1's then 2's.
According to the TA's posted timetables, there were some small changes on the 1 -- a bit less rush hour service and a hair more(!) weekend service, IIRC. Nothing huge, though. I haven't checked the 2.
(The current timetables are on the MTA website. I've saved all of the July/August 2001 timetables; email me and I'll gladly send you the pdfs for whichever ones you want.)
So it's possible that the R160 order, if it's big enough, could result in the retirement of more than just the R38s, R40s, and R42s. So if that's the case, who should be voted off the island-the R32s or the R44s? The R32 is older, but from all I can tell the R44 seems to be in worse shape.
:-) Andrew
I vote for the R-44s.
I vote for the R-44s.
Well, so do I.
:-) Andrew
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! NOT MY R-32! :(
I can imagine what a fourteen-year-old kid may respond,
"HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT R-44s MUST BE RETIRED BEFORE R-32s!"
:-P
Chaohwa
lol thats mean...
I seriously think that 32s should be retired first but only and i mean only if the R44s get a second rebuild make the carbon steel stripe stainless stell like on the R46s and etc. But if not R44s should go first then.
thats my two sense
Adam
you got anything against 14 year olds????
Not at all, to tell you the truth.
Chaohwa
I'm 30, and I'm saying it, but not quite as loud.
WELL, I'M 45 AND DON'T MIND SAYING IT OUT LOUD.:-)
(I know about the caps lock. I used it on purpose.)
Long live the R32s!
Jose
You said it...
Oh yes indeed! They are a hale and hearty fleet. Saturday, I rode #3625, a Jamaica Phase I with black floor, as the north motor of an "F", all the way from Coney Island to 71st-Continental, a thoroughly enjoyable ride,. almost all of which was spent at the railfan window. This train was full of life, very spry, we got to and slightly over 45MPH on at least two occasions (47 between Woodhaven & 63 Drive).
Let's hope these classic and rugged subway cars stay around a while!
wayne
I vote for the R142- R142A's.
Aye, I would vote them off as well. I was fascinated by them when new, but since they've become broken in and have become rather weather-beaten, I'd say they shouldn't be allowed to persist past 2007-8, their 35th anniversary. Maybe they could keep some of them as spares.
wayne
At the very least I would love to vote the R-44s off the A - unless they were to assign R-68s in their place.
No way Jose. I don't want to see a single 75' car retired until every 1960's era 60' car has been scrapped. Despite it's mechanical problems, people LIKE the R44's.
The '44's. They gotta go.
WHy does everyone seem to hate the R44's so much. DOn't they ;ook almost like an R46. No one seems to be complaning about them.
My biggest gripe against the R-44 is the whine produced when the train moves. Some of the R-44's has a high-pitched whine (similar to the whine heard on some R-68's) that can be downright annoying. You rarely hear that whine on the R-46's.
I don't think we hate them. The choice was between the R32 and R44 - there is just no comparison between the two.
The R32 has to go down as one of the most successful designs ever.
The R-32 is in better shape, because It went through a good overhaul and is able to run for the next 10-15 years, Unlike the R-44, which is in bad shape because it didn't receive a high quality overhaul.
-AcelaExpress2005
I like the R-32's but I like the R-44 much better, So I vote for the R-32's.
I agree. The R-32s were overhauled by Morrison Knudsen. The R-44s, on the otherhand, were overhauled by Morrison Knudsen. I really think you're on to something here.
I suspect it had more to do with the original manufacturer. The R32 was built by Budd, while the R44 was built by St. Louis Car, the same company that had built the R38, R40, R40M, R42, and most of the redbirds.
:-) Andrew
Wasn't only part of the R44 fleet overhauled by MKCo? I thought the other half was done by NYCT 207 Street. Anyway, you can't blame the painter when the canvas is full of holes! The R44 wasn't such a quality build to begin with.
wayne
That's correct. Half the R-44 fleet was overhauled by Coney Island and 207th Street Shops (I forget which shop did the structural work and which shop did the component replacement), using parts supplied by Morrison-Knudsen under the contract it had to overhaul the other half of the R-44 fleet.
David
In the very legal sense, the entire R-44 contract was overhauled by Morrison Knudsen. They sub-contracted the work for 1/2 of the job back to the NYCT. Morrison Knudsen, as the primary contractor, was still responsible for the quality and timliness of the work.
Sounds like a classic example of a shell game.
Peace,
ANDEE
its funny that the MTA paid Mk to pay the MTA to rebuild thr R44s
!>
There are several possile explanations for such actions.
One is that MK was over-suscribed. They were building cars for CTA and Norristown lines and overhauling cars for MARTA and reverse engineering BART cars. I was up in Hornell at the time and was amazed at the volume of work they were doing.
Other possibility might be that the TA wanted to funnel work back to TWU members. This saved the TA money because cars did not have to be shipped to Hornell and were turned around in a quicker time-frame.
Despite the volume of the work, M-K could not get economy of scale achieved on rail cars. They exited the business, never to return.
I daresay they did a nice job on the NYC rebuilds, though.
Three factors doomed MK - 4 if you consider compaines doing business with NYCT often disappear.
1) MK's move into the new car business was problematic. Each contract brought demands for a local plant to be used so local yokel's could be employed. Their first venture (with CTA) was a huge success but was never repeated.
2) MK received $990 million from NYCT doing overhauls over 10 years. Unfortunately, NYCT showed the industry that they did not have to rely on overhauls when the NYCT began SMS. They became accustomed to NYCT money that got them through the sparse times. When that money was no longer there, it hurt.
3) MK's railcar division was somewhat mis-directed. Instead of doing what they did best they ventured into new areas. They began building Locos that operated on CNG. I don't think that venture went anywhere (if you'll pardon the pun).
Interesting points, Train Dude. To succeed in the passenger railcar business you have to be really focused and really very good at what you do - and having a broad customer base to avoid "sparse times" is important. That's why Bombardier, Alstom and Kawasaki thrive and American companies do not.
Boeing tried to make railcars once upon a time.
Gruman stuck with making canoes.
Elias
R44's. They are dreary and in bad shape. They give a ride just as rough as the Redbirds. Also they seem to be kinda rusty even though it's supposed to be stainless steel.
The R32's are in great shape, they could easily go for another 6-10 years.
bring back thr R-1.!!!!
bring back the R-1.!!!!
Hey...your miserable 'bald head' should be showered with the graphite dust that pours out of the old DC traction motors. I got some 'hair relief' until I had to wear the TA blue helmet all day long. AC driven motors are a blessing. CI Peter
...omg.!! U, R, nasty !!!
who made you so mean eh ?
YES!
Those were SOLID Trains!
my main man !! alright !!!
No!!! Bring back the R-6-2!
In loving memory of #1208, #1233, #1277, and all the other GE's.
wayne
1277 - witness to a 9/11 in a different era.... I'm toying with the idea of making an audio tape recreating that memorable jaunt through the 53rd St. tunnel. All I need is a sound bit from "A Night at the Opera.":-)
I remember when the R32s were new, and I thought that they were the cat's meow.
Then I saw the R-44s arrive, and I thought WOW... I left the city just as the 46s were arriving, and so was never as familiar with them.
But my vote for the best cars has to remain with the R32s!
And to see them in such good condition is great, Although that cyclops route sign is the pits!
I can remember leaning over the edge of the platforms watching the trains come in, and waiting for the yellow-white marker lights of the (QB) train!
Once a train came in with other signs on it but the markers were yellow-white, and it *was* time for the (QB) so I got on while the others hesitated and hemed and hawed over it. The doors closed and they were on the platform! So long Suckers!
Elias
That's one thing I never paid any attention to - the marker lights - much to my regret. Not that I ever boarded a wrong train, but to me, the bulkhead signs were good enough. OTOH in those days, if you were on the IND and a train of R-10s pulled in on the express track, you knew it was an A train.
When I was a young child, we took the IRT a lot; my grandmother and several aunts lived in the Bronx. As we waited for the Jerome Avenue Line at Union Square, I can remember my mom telling me that the train entering the station (some distance away) was the wrong train; she knew that the LO-V heading towards us was a White Plains Road train from the combination of colors on the marker lights.
P.S: The Dyre Avenue Line ran up 7th Avenue during this period.
The Dyre Avenue Line ran up 7th Avenue during this period.
I didn't realize that. When did it "become" part of the Lexington Line.
Dyre Avenue/Lexington Avenue service replaced Dyre Avenue/Seventh Avenue service in 1965.
David
Why? (Just curious.) Did some rush hour 2 trains run to 241st or 238th, as some rush hour 5 trains do now? Which line was the express between 149 and E180?
Here's what the 1964-65 New York City Transit Authority Annual Report had to say (p. 10):
"To simplify riding and reduce the need for transfers from line to line, fixed routes were established in April for the 241st Street-White Plains Road line. Trains of that line were routed down the Broadway-Seventh Avenue IRT line on the West Side instead of Lexington Avenue except for thru-expresses which continued to operate on the East Side IRT Lexington Avenue line during rush hours."
It doesn't say anything about the Dyre Avenue Line, but it stands to reason that the Dyre Avenue change was the "flip side" of the White Plains Road change.
David
Definitely retire the R44's first. The R32's are in fine shape.
What would be the feasibility of replacing the R32 flipdot sign with an LED system? The flipdots are very hard to read if one is more than ten feet away from the train. Or would it just be a matter of painting the flipdots a brighter color?
I think that it's just a matter of cleaning them more often.
Peace,
ANDEE
This is pure speculation, but it's conceivable that the plastic panel in front of the flipdots is scratched such that it makes it difficult to see the flipdots. I'm assuming if it were just dirt, they would clean it off.
Why can't they install a brighter lamp? And, yes, they should clean the glass, I've been saying this over and over again, sounding like a broken record, and I still can't tell an "E" from an "F", a "C" from a "G" from an "O" and so on and so on &c.&c. &c.
MY fantasy sign for the R32 bulkhead involves a little computer that stores a bunch of GIF files, each one looks like a bullet in the proper color, and pipes them up a fiber-optic cable to an LCD screen in the bulkhead that displays them. A little keyboard (like a Brother P-Touch label maker) would run the computer. You'd think they could do something like this.
wayne
They should add a LEGIBLE destination sign up front, too.
Although I also dislike the flipdot signs on the R32 and R38 (not as bad on the R38), I think in general I prefer the signage on the R32 and R38 over the signage on the R44 and R46. I think the side signs are really more important, and those LCD's are just awful.
:-) Andrew
Although the LCD signs are ugly, it's very easy to see if the A is running local or express on Fulton.
Since you're all talking about rehabing and all that junk, I've heard of the term in the topic display above? Can anyone explain to me what it is? And if the 7's redbirds got that treatment?
it simply means that something is in good condition and that there arent any flaws or the like in whatever it is that was rehabbed.This mostly refers to things that are old in the subway system and need to be dealt with before something majorly bad happens.
I'd say the 44s should go first. Just look at the 44s vs. the 32s, and it's kinda obvious the 44s are in much worse shape.
This is from the AJC "Letters to the Editor"
MARTA falls short on service, safety
I recently boarded MARTA after a long flight at 5 p.m., bound for the Midtown station. It was standing room only when the train left Hartsfield International Airport, and there was more luggage than space. After the first stop at College Park, the coach was uncomfortably crowded and quite hot.
At the Peachtree Center station, an unpleasant situation became difficult and bordered on mass hysteria. People bound for downtown hotels tried to get off with their luggage, while commuters pushed onto the coach. The doors started to close long before either group finished. Luggage was caught in the doors, one purse was lost, there was much shoving and it appeared that one family was separated.
No MARTA employee appeared to be on site. Who controls the doors? Why can't they remain open until those leaving and those boarding are accommodated? Is no one concerned with service and safety, not to mention the perceptions our visitors draw? One idea may be to dedicate one or two trains during rush hour to travel nonstop from the airport to Peachtree Center. There, these trains can pick up commuters for their regular stops north.
One more experience like this, and I'll probably abandon MARTA and go back to parking near Hartsfield.
DONALD SNYDER, Decatur
I can guarautee you that his train was a four car train when a six, or even eight car train was needed.
Yeah, more cars are a much more practical solution than his idea of express trains...kind of hard to do with a two-track line.
Mark
This letter interests me. It raises a million questions in my mind, like:
How do MARTA operators spot the doors? Can they see as well as they need to? Do they spot the doors at all, or do they close automatically after a predetermined time?
Here in Stockholm, we spot the doors standing on the platform. If I need to leave a station before boarding and alighting is complete (e.g., if I'm really horribly late), I announce that I'm about to close the doors before I actually do so. After that, anyone who tries to get on or off the train has only himself/herself to blame.
I find that passengers often ignore the announcements that train operators make (and I know that conductors in New York complain of the same thing). Could it be that the MARTA T/O did this, and the letter writer simply did not hear or notice the announcement for one reason or another?
Mvh Tim
The guy writing the letter probably isn't a railfan, so he doesn't really know how a subway works.
The T/O looks out the window to see if the doors are clear. The T/O can see well because all our stations are straight. The T/O normally do not say anything while stopped at a station. The ding-dong is the only warning the doors are closing. If it's crowded, the T/O will normally press the close button and then the open button to make the ding-dong several times before the doors close. In rare cases, the T/O will make an annoucement.
Then I can understand why this might have been a problem. Either it might not have been possible to hear the ding-dong clearly, with lots of people trying to get on and off the train, or else the ding-dong doesn't give enough warning before the doors close (and the T/O didn't do the "ding-dong several times" thing on this occasion).
This is one advantage to making a verbal announcement: I can say "Se upp för dörrarna" ("Watch the doors"), then wait a few seconds to give people a chance to clear the doors before saying, "Dörrarns stängs" ("The doors are being closed") and hitting the close button.
Mvh Tim
..yea.....OPTO...!! & those loud BOING !! BOING !! BOING !!!
so loud your ears ring afterwards !!
as i remember back in 1983-1988....
I would like to know what the next phrase of the Coney Island rehabilitation will be? How will the Subway Service be affected? When the next phrase goes into effect?
The next phrase of the Coney Island rehabilitation takes effect in September. The phrase is, "where the f***'s my train????"
Seriously, the next PHASE takes effect in September. For a year and a half or so, only the W will be terminating at Stillwell Avenue.
David
>>The next phrase of the Coney Island rehabilitation takes effect in September. The phrase is, "where the f***'s my train????"<<
Of course everybody will have to get used to the bus that will connect them to that train !
Bill "Newkirk"
I was doing some research in some past NY Times articles.
I came across a NY Times article on how passengers in NYC have tried to determine where they heard the familiar musical tones that can be heard when the R142 subway cars leave the station.
As everyone here knows, the new subway cars have AC traction which make them "sing" as they start up and accelerate. The R142A's and R142's have different sounds.
But the tones sounded very familiar to straphangers. It was then discovered that the tones sound very much like three notes from the West Side Story song "Somewhere". In other words, the tones sounded like the notes when the words "There's a place" are played. Only the sound gives it a haunting and eery effect.
The article pointed out how the subway cars that play this "music" run on the West Side of Manhattan (#2 line) - through the general area where West Side Story was filmed - in the Lincoln Center area.
And although not in the article, I had something to add to that. Given the impact of 9/11, the song has even taken on a new meaning in helping people heal from the tragedies.
I figured I would add this interesting observation.
To me personally the noise reminds me of a ringing cell phone
The article pointed out how the subway cars that play this "music" run on the West Side of Manhattan (#2 line) - through the general area where West Side Story was filmed - in the Lincoln Center area.
West Side Story was filmed where Lincoln Center now stands. The tenements that formerly occupied the site were condemned as part of an urban renewal project that included the construction of Lincoln Center. Filming took place after the tenements were condemned and vacated but before demolition began.
By the way, I've never noticed that tune on the R142's.
From a musical standpoint, I do remember the R-1/9s had a beautiful baritonal hum created by the gears that was really obvious if you were on the platform and a train was heading towards the station, especially the R-7/9s coming into Union Square from Sixth Ave. on the LL in the 1970s.
You can thank the spur-cut bull and pinion gears for that. It was a MAAAHHH-VELOUS sound - music to my ears. Nothing could compare to a train of R-1/9s wailing away at about F# or G above middle C on one of the IND express dashes. Or A-440 in the case of 1233.
well if its sounds like somewhere perhaps we could persuade fomer brooklynite barbra streisand to record it on the trains pa system.
In Montreal, as trains leave the station, I remember distinctively it makes a sound reminicent of a bugle being played.
Now, if the R143s can play the first notes of "Somewhere", can the R143s play the first notes of Petula Clark's "Downtown"? :)
-J!
As a kid, when I visited som family in Montreal, I loved riding on the Metro. I was railfan even at 6 or 7.
As the trains accelerated in the tunnel, I related the sounds to things I knew back then.
That accelerating sounded to me back then like the Road Runner (of the old Road Runner/Wile E Coyote cartoons) when he would start up just before he took off like a jet. :-)
Does anyone ever do this? Pick a starting point A and an ending point B, both somewhere in New York, and have a number of people try to get from point A to point B using a variety of different subway routes, to see which is fastest. I live in Philadelphia where there is never more than one way to get anywhere on the subway, so you couldn't subway race here. But in New York where there are multiple ways to get lots of places it could be done. For all I know, people may have been doing this for years before I ever came up with the idea.
Mark
I had thought about this at one point, but figured that most SubFans would know the fastest way between two points, or at least a reasonably fast way.
What might be a fun challenge would be a race where you have 5 or 10 check points throughout the system that you'd have to reach in order using only your unlimited metrocard. Walking (or even running) would be OK, but there would need to be some way to ensure that nobody pulled the Rosie Ruiz equivalent by hopping in a taxi.
So all the entrants would start at one location and have the same itinerary. Something like:
1. Start at 42/8 Northbound platform. Front of train.
2. Main Street Flushing (take the E to Roosevelt and transfer?, or take the long walk to 7th Avenue to catch the 7 direct)
3. Sutphin Blvd at the east end of the J/Z platform (take a bus? or back to the subways),
4. Metropolitan Avenue / Grand Street on the G, southbound platform front of train. (E back to the G?, J to the L?, or J and walk to the G)
5. 125th Street on the 4/5/6 northern end of northbound platform.
6. Back to the Starting point.
Anyone else think this (or something like it) would be an interesting challenge? Obviously there are any number of possibilties for routings but it might make for a different kind of SubTalk field trip.
CG
I'm game, as long as it's on a Sunday.
To make things more interesting, draw out the itinerary before that weekend's GO's are announced, and only change it if one of the points is impossible to reach (e.g., it's on a platform that's closed). The GO's may make the routing easier or they may make the routing more difficult.
Also, I think the itinerary would need to be a bit longer than that, or else the entire group might end up using the identical route.
If you really have a subway race, I'd love to hear how it turns out. I don't want to compete, because intimate knowledge of the tunnels sounds like a necessity, and I'm not even sure I could make it up to New York for the event, but please keep me posted if anything develops.
Mark
>>> Anyone else think this (or something like it) would be an interesting challenge? <<<
I suggested earlier an electronic scavenger hunt in which any number of teams or at least two persons go with a digital camera to take pictures of a list of sights in New York, such as Yankee Stadium, the Wonder Wheel, Lincoln Center, a Staten Island ferry in any order the team chooses, and return to some finish line, preferably where drinks are served. A more technical alternative would be to give the teams lists of car numbers and a tine limit with the winners being those who take pictures of the most cars on the list.
Tom
I like the first idea. However, searching for subway cars is very impractical, especially since you can't be sure that a car isn't sitting in a yard. Unless it's rush hour, when most are in use.
>>> Anyone else think this (or something like it) would be an interesting challenge? <<<
I suggested earlier an electronic scavenger hunt in which any number of teams or at least two persons go with a digital camera to take pictures of a list of sights in New York, such as Yankee Stadium, the Wonder Wheel, Lincoln Center, a Staten Island ferry in any order the team chooses, and return to some finish line, preferably where drinks are served. A more technical alternative would be to give the teams lists of car numbers and a tine limit with the winners being those who take pictures of the most cars on the list.
Tom
On a related note, I've always assumed that the F gets from Jay St. to W. 4th faster than the A/C. Has anyone timed this?
That's exactly the kind of question that calls for a race!
Mark
I did a race like that with my friend once. We were traveling on the 6th Ave line to Forest on the M line. SOuthbound at 23rd on the F we decided to go our seperate ways to see who would get there faster....using the F to the L to the M (seems shorter on the map), or the F to the M. So I got off the F at 14th ST and took the L to Myrtle-Wyckoff to FOrest, and he took the F to Delancy to the M to Forest.
I beat him by only a few minutes. I was on the M train in front of him. I determined I would rather take the seemingly longer M route and avoid the transfer at Wyckoff. The more direct (and faster L route) isn't worth only one train headway. But it was a fun test.
I was going out to Ohio this weekend (Memorial Day Weekend). So on Monday I went online and booked a Y-fare with Student Advantage discount. $90.10 BOS-TOL. I had priced various other options, including a BOS-TOL-BOS round trip, which came up as $159 on one occasion, $179 and $217 on another two occasions. That alerted me to the fact that they are doing some revenue management. I was really impressed -- Amtrak Mgmt isn't asleep anymore and are getting serious about getting some $$ out of people.
Now, strangely enough, I was able to circumvent this -- I booked a TOL-BOS ticket on Rail Sale, $47.70, giving me a total price of $137.80 -- much better than the round-trip fares they quoted me.
As it happened, I had to change my travel plans. I decided on the following weekend. So I called up 1800 USARAIL to try to change the reservation. After persuading "Julie" to give me a real operator, I quoted my reservation number and explained that I had to change these tickets. She said that the first segment (the YB-fare) would cost me $30 to change per segment. I was pissed, and was just going to cancel it off. Then I asked about my "rail sale" fare, which should be non-refundable (or at least I was under that impression when I booked it). She said it was totally refundable, but you have to do it at the website.
Get this -- walk-up tickets have a change/refund fee, but seven-day advance-purchase tickets have no cancellation penalty? I think they had part of their revenue management structure upside down.
I hung up, went to the website, and try to pull up my reservations. Neither of them would pull up, using my reservation numbers. So I called them back again and got a different person. I complained about the website not working, so she said I had to write the "webmaster". Then I proceeded to press about changing my reservation, so she agreed to do that for me. I was quoted $140.24 for a BOS-TOL-BOS round trip, YB-class. So wait a minute -- a YB-class fare next week is better than a YB-class fare this week I was getting off the website, and cheaper than the "rail fare" prices I was simutaniously pulling up on the website? Wait -- I just re-checked the website, it's now quoting me $63.60 TOL-BOS so giving me a round-trip fare of $127.20...
Alright, enough rant. I got my round-trip ticket for an effective $170.24 and I'm not complaining -- way cheaper than anything any airline is offering.
Alicia
(Boston, MA for now -- usually Pittsburgh, PA)
I know the "real" Julie, the voice of 1-800-USA-RAIL (and 1-877-GO-ACELA).
If any other Bostonians would like to hear her on the radio, just tune into WBZ 1030AM on Saturday and Sunday, between 10am and 3pm.
I understand that the company that does the AMTRAK voice-activiated reservation system, as well as United Air Lines' version, did a promotional piece where Julie Amtrak and Ed United "chatted" and "argued" with each other.
The white zone is for loading and unloading only.
No, the RED zone has always been for loading and unloading, there is no stopping in a White zone.
The white zone is for loading and unloading only, there's just NO stopping in the red zone.
That's exactly the type of parody they did. As in,
Julie: What train would you like to take to New York City?
United: Train? We're going to fly.
Julie: No...
you get the idea.
Way to peppy and excited to be taking calls for Amtrak. Also, after "talking" to her for 10 minutes, she can get really annoying. Making reservations from a cell phone at night on I-87 is not easy or fun (and no, I was not driving).
I know the "real" Julie, the voice of 1-800-USA-RAIL (and 1-877-GO-ACELA).
Care to introduce us? She sounds really hot. She also sounds kind of depressed when she says "alright, I'll transfer you to an operator". I always wished she would say, "I'll transfer myself to you..."
Alicia
Around 3:45 PM there were massive delays in "A" service so @ 168 Street I got on a uptown "C" rerouted on the "A" line to 207 Street. The lead car I was on was R38 #4011. That was a very interesting reroute. First time a "C" was rerouted north of 168 Street.
I highly doubt it was the first time ever!
Besides, the late night A could be thought of as the normal A shifted to the local tracks or it could be thought of as the C extended in either direction. I think of it as the latter; for most passengers, who only use the section between 168th and Euclid, the late night A is indistinguishable from the C except that the trains are longer and some have colorful seats.
It DEFINITELY was not the first time ever. In fact it is common for a C to be rerouted to 207 St whenever there are major delays in A service.
How common is it for them to be extended the other way? (Lefferts. The Rockaways might be stretching it).
I'd say about 1 every other day gets extended to Lefferts. If there's a delay to Far Rock, they'll just send a Lefferts train down there.
Reason being that when a C train goes to Lefferts, it can be ping-ponged right back to Euclid without messing the railroad up too badly. If a C crew goes to Far Rock, Euclid would then be down a crew.
I think I saw a C once get sent out to Far Rock. It was an all R32 train and I am pretty sure the signs read C.
Years ago the C used to go to Rockaway Park.
I saw this in mid-November of last year.
I heard somewhere the C Line removed one 8 car train from service and to compensate, it turned trains faster at Euclid.
Reminds me of the time (about 8 years ago) that a mid-day "D" that I was on took the wrong line-up @125. I knew what happened the minute we pulled in upstairs @ 145. The comedy then ensued.
Peace,
ANDEE
Talk about an oops!
It can't be as bad as the D motorman who punched for a wrong lineup just after the Chrystie St. connection opened. Instead of being on 6th Ave., he wound up on Broadway. Another train wound up on the bridge instead of the Montague St. tunnel.
Another train wound up on the bridge instead of the Montague St. tunnel.
Fred would've loved that!
How did they get the mispunched D-trains of the Washington Heights and Broadway Lines anyway?
On the D train I was on, after much disscusion, they just ran it up as an A.
Peace,
ANDEE
The most unique reroute I remember, was in the early 80's when an
"E" appeared on the Uptown Express Track at 59th Street~Columbus
Circle in the PM crush time and the PA was blaring that the "E" was a "D" going to 205th~Concourse. I was going the other way, so don't know why?
Or if you want some expressionless faces, go to the #7 platform at
Grand Central in the PM crush. My wife travels thru there about
1710 most evenings and says I have to come and see the reflections
of the riders, when a silver bird arrives. She says many void it,
as if it were going to a different planet. >If it ain't red, they
ain't ridin it.< >golly<
:-) Sparky
what does the euclid station look like upstairs ??
on the street level that is ......
A few holes in the ground -- four, I think, or perhaps more. Nothing unusual.
Euclid Avenue station is located in the East New York community, zip code is 11208.
It is a semi-residential/low rise commercial neighborhood, not a major business or large-scale shopping district, just two-to-three story buildings, small stores at street level, apartments above, on the side streets are row houses, on the main street (Pitkin Avenue) a few gas stations, and other small commercial establishments.
There has been some new housing gone up there in the last ten years or so, row-houses, for low-to-moderate income homeowners. This has been a very positive trend throughout the East New York and Brownsville communities.
wayne
thankz really appreciate dat !
think i might remember it back in the early 50's
..lol!
Yesterday, while the evening rush hour was in progress, the Virginia Railway Express told its riders.......
At approximately 5:05pm Acela train 2112, which travels from Union Station to New York, was attempting to leave Union Station on track 17 and had a mechanical breakdown in its brake and computer control systems. Because of the location of the breakdown it effectively blocked all the access to the lower level tracks, including the track we use to leave our daytime layover yard.
Although technicians from both Union Station and Bombardier's Ivy City facility responded, they were unable to make the computers release the brakes. At first Amtrak officials believed they could overcome the problem in short order. That is why VRE released delays that were in the 15 to 20 minute range. However, as the problem continued, we were forced to increase the delays. As you know problems are dynamic, sometimes there is a "quick fix", other times what seems to be a 10 minute job turns into a much longer one. Fixing the Acela train turned into one of these longer problems.
After realizing that the locomotive could not be fixed quickly Amtrak brought another locomotive out and pushed the train out of the way. This was accomplished at approximately 6:20pm.
Due to the blockage, it was necessary to cancel train #333. We were able to "turn" train (#338), that normally becomes #337, to become a late #335. The problem was then cleared and we were able to operate a late #311. Trains #313 and #337 also operated with short delays. Additionally, in order to clear the storage yard so #311 could operate, we operated an unnumbered Manassas train between #335 and #337.
Hey, I saw a VRE train at Union Station yesterday with waves on the side, is that the sounder train?
>>Hey, I saw a VRE train at Union Station yesterday with waves on the side, is that the sounder train?<<
Yes it is. I photographed them at Alexandria last week while on vacation. What happend to the Amtrak leased F-40's they had ? I didn't see any that day.
Bill "Newkirk"
It's still around. I usually see it around 4:15 from the SW freeway if my van pool is running late.
Phil Hom
It must have been on track 21 (that is my guess) yesterday at about 1:15 PM. No idea what train it was operating.
I wonder what you all thought of that. I can tell you that no one in the real estate industry cares about the quality of subway service. They just want access to people in the suburbs.
Fortunately, the 85-foot length of the LIRR cars makes the Cranberry-LIRR option untennable, or else it might have enough political clout to actually get done. The cost of either redesigning the tunnel or buying LIRR rolling stock just for use on that line (let alone the FRA implications of ever having an M-8 -- or whatever the new car model would be -- collide with an R-160) makes the plan a non-starter.
A new bi-level tunnel near the Manny B to replace the majority of bridge service for the IND and BMT and provide the LIRR with access to the east side of Lower Manhattan would be the only option that would be feasible from an engineering standpoint nd provide improved service to both subway and commuter rail passengers.
(Fortunately, the 85-foot length of the LIRR cars makes the Cranberry-LIRR option untennable, or else it might have enough
political clout to actually get done.)
They could still do it. Just have a super-express subway line limited to LIRR passengers running from Jamaica through the tunnel to a separate station in the WTC. The TA could operate the service using 75 foot cars, using fares from subway riders to pay for it.
I'd agree that there is excess track capacity from BK to MN -- if I was 100 percent sure that the Manny B will be able to carry trains for the next few centuries. But I'm not.
They could still do it. Just have a super-express subway line limited to LIRR passengers running from Jamaica through the tunnel to a separate station in the WTC. The TA could operate the service using 75 foot cars, using fares from subway riders to pay for it.
Or even better, take over the Atlantic Avenue Line for the Subway and run the following service:
(A) 207th St - 8th Av Express - Fulton Express - Lefferts or Rockaway
(C) 168th St - 8th Av Local - Atlantic Av - Jamaica (Sutphin)
(E) Jamaica (Parsons/Archer) - 8th Av Local - Fulton Local - Euclid
Insert a few Local stations, build a transfer to the (E)(J)(Z) Lines at Sutphin and there's a solution to the Queens overcrowding!
Better still extend the Rockaway (A) to Valley Stream and run (C) trains through to Long Beach :D
Sounds nice, but there are some problems with that idea - when the LIRR was built, there was a connection, still visible today, between the LIRR tracks and the IRT lines. Over time, and many modifications to the LIRR lines since then, there cannot be a connection between the LIR and the B division subways ( the A, B, C, D lines ) because the area is now built up significantly - even during the period from when I was a child. Now if you want to commit huge amounts of cash to fund such a project, well, anything is possible, but look, the Second Ave subway cnnot even get built, and the need for it‚¤‡Âgreater than for what you proposed.
The problem I see with that would be those who like it like it is right now with a one-seat ride to downtown Brooklyn.
If the MTA put the 75-foot cars on the Atlanta Ave. line and built a connector to the A Fulton St. tracks near the current terminal, then unless they got an FRA exemption, all current LIRR rolling stock would be banned from Atlantic Ave., forcing people who now get a one-seat ride to change to the new "super subway" service at Jamaica (presumably the station would have to be modified in the same way Penn Station in Newark and the tracks are fixed to keep the Amtrak and PATH trains from sharing the same lines).
So in effect, for the people who work in downtown Brooklyn, or even those who work in lower Manhattan, you would be swapping an underground transfer at Flatbush and Atlantic Aves. for an above-ground one at Jamaica (not bad this time of year, not fun in January). Riders would have the advantage that if the train originates at Jamaica they would be assured seats, something not the case when you're getting on the BMT or the IRT at Atlantic Ave. But whether or not that would justify the money needed to hook in the LIRR tracks with the IND I have to wonder about.
all current LIRR rolling stock would be banned from Atlantic Ave.
Exactly. So the terminus probably wouldn't be Jamaica if the Atlantic Av Line were connected to the Subway. The Long Beach, Far Rockaway and maybe even West Hempstead branches of the LIRR would have to get direct subway service.
"This is a C train to Long Beach!"
Now imagine that...
Quite how connecting the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel to the Brooklyn IND works I have no idea...
Considering at one point along Atlantic Ave it was a rapid transit line under LIRR control, (explains all the abondoned stations) Maybe from Jamaica to Flatbush/Atlantic and into NYC via Cranberry or another underwater tube, the route was be taken away from the LIRR and given to the IND?
Spwaking of abandoned stations, is there still any evidence of the underground station at Woodhaven Blvd and Atlantic? I've looked for it while on the train, but the trains go to fast through there. It's amazing that this was a transfer point at one time and now the Rockaway station and the underground one are abandoned.
Thestation is still there. But just no lights of anykind. From the front or back (or the sides) of a train you'll notice no wall. But no lights of any kind to show what is there. What there is is just an abondoned platform sealed up.
You can see the station, but you must adjust your eyesight to the lighting condition in that part of the tunnel. You will really see it on the eastbound side - the platform is long, the stairs are blocked off, but it can be recognized as a station.
Anyone know of any photos online of the Woodhaven Station while it was in use. How long has it been closed?
It closed in 1977 I think. It had beige 5x5 tile with medium purple (179th Street color) tablets and incandescent lights in round, cap-like shades (like other LIRR stations had). I was on a train that actually stopped there once! The platforms are still there and as far as I know are not walled off. The lights on the westbound side are out, the eastside has a few lights lit still.
wayne
Thanks for the info. It's like a "LIRR" subway station. I have never seen a photo of it.
I am ALL FOR converting LIRR lines from railroad to mass-transit headways. All the close-in lines should be done this way (Hempstead, Far Rock, Long Beach). West Hempstead, since it's a one-lunger, might be a little bit tricky unless they can build a couple of sidings in there.
wayne
Converting the whole of the LIRR to rapid transit (compatible with IND) makes the most sense of all. They do have fantasies about freight service on the LIRR, but they are really playing at being a real railroad when they should be running a mass transit agency.
Well, they could keep the "railroad" part of it for out east, i.e. Montauk branch east of PATCHOGUE, Ronkonkoma to Greenport etc.
I wonder if and when electrification is going to reach Patchogue
wayne
West Hempstead, since it's a one-lunger, might be a little bit tricky unless they can build a couple of sidings in there.
Yes well, the Tyne & Wear Metro did that kinda thing with their line to South Shields.
(So in effect, for the people who work in downtown Brooklyn, or even those who work in lower Manhattan, you would be swapping an underground transfer at Flatbush and Atlantic Aves. for an above-ground one at Jamaica. Riders would have the advantage that if the train originates at Jamaica they would be assured seats,
something not the case when you're getting on the BMT or the IRT at Atlantic Ave. But whether or not that would justify the
money needed to hook in the LIRR tracks with the IND I have to wonder about. )
They'd be getting a cross platform transfer to a train that would move just as fast, and they keep going, plus the seat. I actually don't think the super subway's such a bad idea. I just think taking the Cranberry away from the subway is a bad idea, with the long term future of the Manny B in doubt.
They should build a separate "super-connector" for the suburbs. The Atlantic Branch would be connected to a new tunnel at Altantic Avenue, then super-express up Second Avenue (fare controlled transfer to the new Second Avenue Subway on the upper level, built at the same time) and over to Grand Central, then one stop at Time Square, one stop at 10th Avenue, and through a Hudson Tunnel to Secaucus Transfer and the Meadowlands. With one easy transfer, NJ Transit riders to Grand Central and MetroNorth and LIRR riders to Downtown would get a super fast, premium service, once every three-minute ride.
Pay for it with a reinstated commuter tax, and I'm all in favor.
Something like that might happen. My own vision is a new line running from the LIE to under 49th, and thence to the Meadowlands.
I wonder if they will leave any provision for a line running from West St. at the WTC to Atlantic Av. in Brooklyn.
Then, of course, there is the 80-year-old dream, the one for which the Port Authority was partly formed to build: a cross-harbor rail tunnel from NJ to the Bay Ridge Branch of the LIRR.
The main problem with a tunnel from the current Flatbush-Atlantic LIRR terminal to Lower Manhattan, especially the west side of Lower Manhattan, is that there are so many other tunnels already in the way. Any new line would have to be a deep tunnel connection to get beneath the existing IRT, BMT and IND tracks, which would mean at the current LIRR terminal, lowering the tracks -- and presumable they station itself -- a minimum of 30 feet to get them beneath both the main IRT tracks on Flatbush and the Brighton and Fourth Ave. lines.
Turning the line north at Flatbush-Atlantic towards Metro Tech would be a cheaper option, though to avoid the big dig-out costs of lowering the trackbed you'd have to be able to run them pretty much through the mezzanine level of the A/C Lafayette Ave. and the G Fulton St. stations (above the existing tracks). That would give a new LIRR connection a less obstructed route to the East River, though the tunnel itself would end up somewhere around the Manny B and would have to be turned south (either in Brookyln or Manhattan) to get to the main business area. Also, a terminal on Water Street, somewhere between Fulton and Wall, would also be cheaper, since it would avoid having to bore under the maze of tunnels in the Broadway-Nassau area.
Hey... What is this Metro Tech...
Is that what they used to call New York City Community College.
Is it still in the same place where it was, or did it move?
Elias
Hey... What is this Metro Tech...
Is that what they used to call New York City Community College.
Is it still in the same place where it was, or did it move?
It's a multi-building commercial development near downtown Brooklyn.
I believe it also includes Polytechnic University - formerly Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute, my wife's alma mater.
And, after making all these considerations, it seems to be more practical to convert the Atlantic branch to super-express subway service, to run parallel to the LIRR, allowing cross-platform transfers.
For east side lower Manhattan, the only really practical new tube alignment is along Pierrepont St., leading into Coenties Slip (Viet Vets Park) to Water St. and the downtown leg of the 2nd Av line. Make it 4-tracks, and you can also feed into Broad St. 60 tph connecting into the Fulton St, Lafayette Av and Atlantic Av systems would do a lot. $4 billion?
Turning the line north at Flatbush-Atlantic towards Metro Tech would be a cheaper option
But isn't there already an unused tunnel in place along Atlantic Avenue to the Shore?
That tunnel could be extended, staying South of the Joralemon Street Tunnel, with a station to serve Battery Park City before entering the WTC-Hub Station. Depending on who has the money, this could be connected to the E-Train or PATH Terminals.
But isn't there already an unused tunnel in place along Atlantic Avenue to the Shore?
Yes, but the double-decked Smith St IND, where it crosses Atlantic Av, breaks it. You'd have to go 40 or 50 feet under it to get clear.
If they are to be used, the western stretch of the Atlantic Av tunnel would probably best be used as a way into the Smith St IND local tracks, either to Bergen St, or to Hoyt-S.
"That tunnel could be extended, staying South of the Joralemon Street Tunnel, with a station to serve Battery Park City before entering the WTC-Hub Station"
Nice Idea, but get a map with all of the tunnels drawn in.... NOT!
The Joralemon tunnel is the southern-most tunnel (And The Atlantic Tunnel comes in south of that...)
But there is NO ROOM between the Joralemon Tunnel and the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel on the south end of Manhattan.
Unless you were planning on drilling your tunnel under an existing tunnel.
*MY* Tunnel Routing (envisioned for the Myrtle Avenue Line) turns north along Adams Street Then under The East River via a new Pineapple Street Tunnel, and then diving undeer all of the lower Manhattan lines at once following Wall Street, tnen norh on the Westside Highway between the WTC and the WFC sites.
Elias
But there is NO ROOM between the Joralemon Tunnel and the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel on the south end of Manhattan.
This is a topic I've never received a firm definite answer on. I suspect you could send the West Side IRT local to Atlantic Av without too much difficulty. Something from West St. might be squeezed in, perhaps at some cost to the West St-FDR loop.
My thoughts entirely, Mark.
I do indeed have a map with all the tunnels on, contrary to what Elias presumes. It clearly shows that the Joralemon and Brooklyn-Battery tunnels never come closer than 440 ft from eachother, center to center. I understand the Joralemon tunnel to have a diameter of approx 30 ft and the Brooklyn-Battery of approx 60 ft. Even allowing for double these diameters, there is still a "gap" of 330 m. Presumably a 33 m diamater tunnel would fit in a gap ten times its size.
The West St - FDR Loop would indeed almost certainly have to go, but that may well be a price worth paying for vastly improved subways.
And what of the South Ferry Loop, does that have to go to,
Although a major reconstruction of the area might help.
Where does your line go once it gets past the loops.
The Avenues already have subways in that area.
Elias
And what of the South Ferry Loop, does that have to go to,
Although a major reconstruction of the area might help.
Definitely don't destroy it - it's too useful. The line would HAVE to go either under or over it. I have a variety of suggestions:
1. an IRT Line directly under the Western Part of the South Ferry Loop (with a new through Station) rising to a flying junction between South Ferry and Rector St (1)(9).
2. a PATH Line directly under the Western Part of the South Ferry Loop (with a new through station), curving under the WTC to join the Hudson Tubes (platforms on curve at WTC - Gap Fillers required!)
3. an IND Line deep under West St. Stops at: West Thames St, WTC, then connected to 8th Av Local.
4. an IRT Line rising to the Median of West St, with overpasses for traffic at various points. Stops at: West Thames St, Dey St (WTC), Warren St, North Moore St, Canal St, Christopher St, West 12th St. Then into a tunnel under 10th Av. Stops: West 17th St, West 23rd St, West 28th St, West 34th St, Times Square (Flushing Line Platforms).
5. an IND or IRT Line rising to the Median of West St, with overpasses for traffic at various points. Stops at: West Thames St, Dey St (WTC), Warren St, North Moore St, Canal St, Christopher St, West 12th St. Then into a tunnel under 10th Av. Stops: West 17th St, West 23rd St, West 28th St, West 34th St, West 42nd St, West 50th St, West 57th St, West 64th St, West 72nd St Sherman Sq.
Those are the various ideas I have had so far. 2 is probably a political non-starter, and 4 and 5 would probably (sadly) cost ridiculous amounts.
The main problem with a tunnel from the current Flatbush-Atlantic LIRR terminal to Lower Manhattan, especially the west side of Lower Manhattan, is that there are so many other tunnels already in the way.
Heh. Not to sound like a broken record, but the main problem with the tunnel idea is that there is no need for it. There already are fast, convenient subway connections from Flatbush Avenue terminal to lower Manhattan.
the main problem with the tunnel idea is that there is no need for it.
Almost certainly true, but it is SOOOOOO fun talking about it anyway!
There are wonderful connections, indeed, and they were close to perfect in August Belmont's day. But that was then. Nowadays, we would easily fill up an extra 30 to 60 tph during rush hour.
Yes, but most people (at least those I know) can't stand using it! They prefer going to Penn and then downtown on the #2 or the "A"
wayne
I can name a bunch of other things the MTA could be spending their money on besides this. But since you've got real estate interests pushing the equally fantasy-land idea of running the LIRR through the Cranberry tube, the tunnel comes in as a alternative that would solve their problem while at the same time not cutting back on subway service or violate FRA regulations.
The other option proposed, an LIRR connector down from Penn Station to thr WTC area, has its own problems -- you can't get an underground tunnel closer than Franklin Street because of the competing subway lines unless you run it down 10th Ave. and Washington Street (if they had thought of this 50 years ago the High Line would still be in service), or they could ramp it up through the yard to an elevated line running above West Street, which would be the cheapest solution, but also the most likely to marshal the NIMBY forces to action.
To do that would be just flat-out wrong. The Fulton Street Line (or more accurately the A train) is among the most crowded in Brooklyn. Stealing the Cranberry Tunnel from Fulton Street riders would put them in a big hole. Whoever even thought of this idea either doesn't know the subway system too well, or holds Fulton riders with very little regard.
Maybe after all is said and done nothing is going to be done about it anyway!
Communties along the Fulton Line would be in an uproar (and rightfully so) if the LIRR steals the Cranberry tunnels. I don't think there's enough political clout and organization to pull that off. As long as they don't mess with the Fulton Line, everything's cool.
Absolute insanity. It would doom the High Street station, and what the heck would you do with the "A" train? Run it by Rutgers?
They should just build another LIRR tunnel and forget about cannibalizing the NYCT lines.
wayne
I'm quite willing to discussing cannibalizing the LIRR for increasing Bk-Qns subway service. Terminate the LIRR out at Hollis or thereabouts and send some subway superexpresses into Penn Station via the LIRR tubes. Or shut down the LIRR altogether and let everyone out in Nassau and Suffolk take the LIE to work: that's what they all really would prefer to do, after all.
LOL! Then you would REALLY the bad side of LI drivers. Come to think of it....well, let's just say there are too many hotheads out here.
wayne
I better pull out my monster truck if I want to get to manhatten in time for work.
Who thinks of all these ideas? I mean who seriously thinks any of this would work. The transit system would come to a standstill with A trains, C trains, and Long Island Railroad trains sharing a 2 track set of tubes into Downtown (and for the transit people here imagine the wrong lineups.... A train at Flatbush Avenue Terminal, The 8:03 LIRR train from Hempstead stuck at Broadway-Nassau.. lol) I know the MTA "geniouses" don't really believe that this would actually make transit in the city and region better....then again look who were talking about!!
(Who thinks of all these ideas? I mean who seriously thinks any of this would work. I know the MTA "geniouses" don't really believe that this would actually make transit in the city and region better....then again look who were talking about!!)
The MTA is opposed. The group pushing the idea is Bloomfield Properties, and they have hired a transportation consultant to do the design. Bloomfield owns Battery Park City and One Liberty, and they want affluent suburbanites delivered directly into their buildings. If those in Bed-Stuy and East New York find it harder to get to Manhattan, well so much the better.
Really, it is amazing that this is even being considered. The Daily News editorial page delivered a semi-endorsement.
I think the company is Brookfield. Anyway it will NEVER happen. The Cranberry tubes cannot handle LIRR cars. Just looking at the dips and curves in the tunnel, it is not meant for the heavier, longer LIRR cars. The Penn station tubes have very gentle curves, not the sharper ones in the Cranberry.
And where would the A and C trains go?
It's saddening how some people like Brookfield think, considering they are involved re-developing the WTC site, where the most horrific tragedy in the USA occurred.
Instead of spending money on how to bring the LIRR to Lower Manhattan (and there is NO NEED for it) they should be spending money on how to build a fitting memorial and a brand new World Trade Center that will tower above us.
Instead of spending money on how to bring the LIRR to Lower Manhattan (and there is NO NEED for it) they should be spending money on how to build a fitting memorial and a brand new World Trade Center that will tower above us.
I couldn't agree more. What really saddens me is that the way things get done in NY currently, all we will have at the WTC site is nondescript buildings just like all the other plain buildings in NY with maybe a memorial around them. Hopefully I am wrong, but when is the last time a building that "stands-out" was built in New York.....the WTC and maybe the citicorp building (which is tall, but fairly plain). All the other architectually pleasing buildings like the Empire state or the Crysler Building were built in the early part of the century.
We'd see a First Avenue subway before we'd see this cock-a-mamie LIRR plan.
Besides, the MTA is against it. As Archie Bunker would say: "Case Closed".
OK there's a room with videos playing of short films in the concourse level of Rockefeller center.
Anyway on one of the videos they show different shots of the NYC subway. At one station (appeared to be 14th street BMT) they showed an R42 train going through signed up as a brown T. Is that even on the rollsign or was that just made up?
If there ever was a T train it hasn't run in a long time. Most likely it was a train signed up wrong, but R42's don't normally run on the Broadway BMT.
I've heard that the "T" train will be the Second Avenue Subway line, but I don't know if it was used before then. -Nick
The "T" train was the BMT (Broadway) West End Express, indication first appearing on the R27s in 1960, and lasting until 1967, when the "B" route took over the West End Line.
What is now the "W" train is the route of the "T" from 1961-67.
-- Ed Sachs
You mean it was the West End local/4th Avenue express/Broadway express. It wasn't the West End express. (I know that's what it was called.)
In any case, John said the T bullet was on an R-42. There were no R-42's by 1967, nor were there bullets.
It must have been set in error or something, but my question is there even a T on an R42 rollsign?
If not something funny was going on in the video.
No "T" ever existed on the original R42 rollsigns, nor did the blue "TT" that ran briefly in '67-68.
R40M and R42 rollsigns:
A (blue), AA (fuchsia), B (black)b 4600s
CC (green), D (orange) 4700s
(lt blue), F (fuchsia) high 4900s
(R40M only:) E (lt blue) EE (orange) F (fuchsia) GG (green) R40M only
KK (blue) LL (black) M (lt blue) hi 4800, 4900s
N (gold) 4500s R42 only
QB (red) QJ (black) mid 4800s
RR (green) low 4800s
each variant also included an "S" on the roll.
wayne
Well then a letter must've been upside down to look like a T. Or it was an altered rollsign, those short films go by so fast so it's hard to tell without watching it a few times.
Probably the latter, filmers always screw something up (on purpose) when filming the subway. Only the railfan filmers get it right!
There are no T's or I's or anything like that. Filmmakers make up things all the time sometimes with total disregard to fact. When filmmakers do stick with the facts within a storyline, it shows that they care about detail which in turn sometimes makes for a better flick whether it be transit related or not (at least IMO).
No. The "T Broadway-West End" rollsign would have only appeared on the R27, R30, R32 and R38, when they were new. The "T" route was only in existance for 7 years, and it disappeared in 1967 after Christie St opened. The "TT" did last 2 years longer, denoting the West End shuttle.
The TT vanished from the scene on July 1, 1968. On that day, the 57th St. station on the 6th Ave. line opened and the B began running 24/7. Apparently no one had the idea back then of simply running the B as a West End shuttle during late nights and Sundays. Or perhaps the riding public was still accustomed to the TT.
The pre-Chrystie St. T was the Broadway-West End Express. Essentially it was a rush hour and Saturday service, running from Astoria to Coney Island during weekday rush hours and from 57th St. to Coney Island during daytime hours on Saturdays. I remember just missing a T train of R-32s at Union Square once on a Saturday afternoon in the fall of 1967.
Did it stop between 9th Avenue and 36th Street? Did it stop between 36th Street and Bay Parkway? If so, it wasn't a West End express -- it was a West End local/Broadway express.
We don't call the 3 train the Lenox Avenue express. We don't call the 4 train the Jerome Avenue express. We don't call the F the 6th Avenue express.
AFAIK the T ran express along 4th Ave. and skipped DeKalb during rush hours (it stopped at DeKalb on Saturdays). It made all stops between 9th Ave. and Coney Island even though the TT ran as far as Bay Parkway during rush hours.
As for your local/express observation, I suppose the same could be said about the E and F when the R-1/9s were around. The F never ran express along 6th Ave. even though R-1/9 route signs said, "F-6th Ave. Express". And don't get me started about the "E-8th Ave. Express" signs. Well, at least the E ran express along 8th Ave. during rush hours.
"The F never ran express along 6th Ave. even though R-1/9 route signs said, "F-6th Ave. Express". "
Actually it *was* an express, and only made express stops.
But then OTOH: It only went to 34th Street, and all of the stops north of that on Sixth Avenue *were* express stops.
The (D) train made the local stops and then went on to the CULVER LINE! Which is where it belongs!
Elias
My point is simply that the title "West End express" should be reserved for a line that runs express on the West End line itself, not for a line that runs local on the West End and express somewhere else. If there were also a line that used the middle track on the West End line, what would it be called?
There are currently two Brighton services. Both run express on Broadway. One runs express on the Brighton line; the other runs local on the Brighton line. By your terminology, they should be called the Brighton express and the Brighton express. How confusing!
Btw, on a similar note, I've seen the J called the Nassau Street Express. What the hell is a Nassau Street Express? There are no local stations on the line, all trains can and do platform at each station. (I know Bowery was skipped for a while).
Also why was that line built with all "express" type stations? It seems to be set up for "service that was never to come"
Oh, I agree with you there. It's another example of the terminology I've been complaining about in this thread. It's express (sometimes, and then very briefly) in Brooklyn.
The "express" tracks dead end at Canal. I'm not sure what the point was in separating trains terminating at Canal from trains continuing further south, but a train on the SB "express" track at the Bowery cannot get past Canal. At Essex, it looks to me like it was originally a two-track station with a single island platform, and the extra track and platform were squished in later. At Chambers, the two tracks on the west were originally for trains from the Williamsburg Bridge while the two tracks on the east were originally for trains from the Manhattan Bridge. South of that point (the only section of the line to actually run under Nassau Street), there are only two tracks (aside from the J relay tracks south of Broad).
I had heard somewhere, possibly here, that the lower level of the City Hall station, (never used) was planned before they decided to make a connection over the manhattan bridge. (Perhaps even before the bridge was built???)or else I think that the bridge track was going to go further west, as evidenced by the stub tunnel pointing that way at the west end of the Canal Street Station, and then turned onto Broadway as an afterthought.
Check out the history pages for the BMT and see what you can find.
Elias
That's the Broadway BMT. I'm referring to the other Centre Street BMT.
At Essex, it looks to me like it was originally a two-track station with a single island platform, and the extra track and platform were squished in later.
I always wondered how Essex was originally laid out. Sometimes I think it's your idea that it was originally an island platform station, with two tracks, and other times I think it was standard two wall platform station with the current QB track added later.
I do remember the station before they added the current "cement block" wall on the Broad Street side in 1989 The original tiles on the wall were VERY old. Sort of like the original IRT white "brick" type tile, which is also in the trolly station.
So here we are, I still have absolutely no idea how Essex was originally laid out. But I don't think it is the way it is now.
Maybe someone can help with this???
Consider this: Sea Beach express trains didn't actually run express on the Sea Beach line itself. There never was a Sea Beach local, even though the BMT standards had signs for such a service. OTOH the Sea Beach express tracks were never intended to be part of that line per se; they were reserved for Coney Island Express trains.
Dave,
There are no other stops between 9th Ave and 36 St. Also, if it stopped at 62st it would still be considered an express. The West-End express stops are 9th Ave, 62 St, Bay Pkwy, and Coney Island.
JDL
That was a typo. I meant 62nd, not 36th. Thanks for being awake and catching it.
There are no other stops between 9th Ave and 36 St. Also, if it stopped at 62st it would still be considered an express. The West-End express stops are 9th Ave, 62 St, Bay Pkwy, and Coney Island.
Even though the capacity exists on the West End for express service, I don't believe they EVER ran regular express service there.
BTW, why did they build it for three tracks at the beginning and then never utilize it, even at the beginning? The J line in Queens was built to ALLOW for express service, but it also was never even built. WHy did they spend the money on WEST END if they could have saved money like on the J. (not that I agree that the J shouldn't have a third track, because the NIMBY's have made it impossible to build now, at least with the West End it is there, aso all they would have to do is start to run the trains.
GP,
What you're saying is true, but apparently all of the interconnecting BMT Els(ie the Culver) were built with the 3 track design. I personally have no idea if they expected full-time expresses on these lines, or if the middle track was to be used for emergencies as a by-pass.
However, I have noticed that evening rush hour W trains have run express on the West-end quite often, especially if they are over one minute late. This pissed of a ton of people who had to get off and squeeze into the next W or M train. Also, there was a brief period a few months ago, that a W train in the evening rush hour would run express in Queens, Manhattan(skipping 49 st.) and in Brooklyn. I haven't seen it in a while, though.
JDL
They abolished the W running on the Astoria line express because it wasn't working out, so officially the W is running local on both els. In actualy practice, I'm sure they will occasionally run express on both when need be, for delays etc.
I'm amazed it was proposed to begin with. I'm not even a TA employee, and I knew this service was doomed to failure for the very reason the TA later gave for it's cancellation.
Express service on the Astoria leg serves no purpose. Any time saving is moot because of switching maneuvers.
Man oh man, I never thought I'd be saying something like that.:-)
It wasn't the switching which doomed it. Seeing half empty W trains whizz through packed Astoria local stations was bound to piss people off.
Having 3 tracks can be an insurance policy against service distruptions. The express tracks may have been intended for actual use, but service and ridership realities conspired against implementing it.
It could also be attributed to a philosophy of "It's better to have it and not need it rather than need it and not have it". RTD in Denver adopted that philosophy with our light rail system. The downtown loop has an unused loop track to allow trains from 30th Ave. to loop back. There is a three-way junction where the Central Platte Valley Spur or C line joins the original, now D, line, and one of the legs is unused. It allows for trains from Union Station to go downtown and loop back. I have been told that another three-way junction will be built where the Southeast Corridor will branch off, and again one leg will be normally unused. Sounds like IND thinking if you ask me.
It could also be attributed to a philosophy of "It's better to have it and not need it rather than need it and not have it".
That is probably the answer. That is just the problem with the J line now. A few years back they tried to add an express track on the J line and the NIMBY'S put a stop to that. If it had already been there all they would have had to do is start running the trains, with little fanfare.
If there ever was a T train it hasn't run in a long time.
There Was!! and it hasn't run since 1967 - Its the reason I've hated the B (pfffft) ever since! At least I can savor the W while it lasts.
Jim,
Why not create some T signs in the pre-color bullet style and paste them (when no one is looking) on some W trains. Until someone notices it you can at least say the T ran again.
:-)
I share your feelings. You can say that the all of those great new R32s from the T were kidnapped by the B in 1967 due to the Chrystie opening. (The same thing happened with the Q. The R32s went to the D.)
Jose
The Memorial Day fantrip next Monday is supposed to go up to Fulton Street on the Shuttle. How will they squeeze us in on the single tracking North of Botanic?
Very carefully.:-)
Obviously the D type visit to the Franklin shuttle line, given the single track operation, will indeed have an impact on scheduled Franklin shuttle service. In fact the D type is scheduled to do 2 round trips on the shuttle according to the GO. Speaking of which: the D type is supposed to take a trip on the J line as far as 111 St. That ancient Fulton St. structure will be rocking!
Can you summarize the D-Type (and Redbird) GO if you know it?
Thank you!
--Mark
I'll run the Redbird GO down for you:
-Train Leaves Westchester Yard and runs down to Track 1 of the Shuttle
-Passengers Board at 10:30
-Train goes to City Hall Loop and up to Middletown Rd, via Track M
-Proceed to Westchester Yard and down to Parkchester for Lunch
-From Parkchester, proceed to 86th St
-86 St to Kingsbridge Rd, and proceed into Concourse Yard
-Concourse Yard to 135th St via the "D" Line
-135th St to 207th St Yard via the "A" Line
-From 207th St, up the flyover to 242 St
-15 Minute Relief Stop at 242 St
-To TSQ, last stop
-Train runs lite to 207th St for retirement
It really is a Farewell Trip!
-STEF
Would you happen to know the D-Type GO?
Sorry! I just happened to see a copy of the Redbird GO. The D Types?
I don't know...
-Stef
Aw S#%^&*@; foiled again. Does anyone have knowledge of the Triplex G.O.
Another poster will hopefully put it up later.
-Stef
Sounds very cool...I hope to be able to post the Monday B division GO sometime this evening.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you, Andee ...much appreciated!
--Mark
We'd like to know about it, Sir!
Regards,
Stef
Probably after 1930. I have to wait for my TW/O to come home.
Peace,
ANDEE
Excellent, Stef .. thank you!
--Mark
I almost forgot to add that the train will be made up of 6 R-33/36 Type Cars. As with the excursion in 2000, I'd expect to find 4 R-33 Singles with an R-36 pair sandwhiched in between.
And--- The train will remain in Parkchester Middle while everyone goes to Lunch. At 242nd St, the train will relay at 238th St for the 15 minute relief. Ladies, Gentlemen get those cameras out!!!
I may be lurking around....
-Stef
Me too in uniform if security lets me back into NYC. CI Peter
Sounds like a helluva trip. See you there. Are you also going to ride on "my" Triplex Sea Beach train? That is what I am really looking forward to. Bill Wall told me it will have a #4 on its rollsign. Hotcha Hotcha Hotcha!!!!!! The means, your truly, #4 Sea Beach Fred wants railfan window from Fort Hamilton Parkway to 20th Avenue----AT LEAST. How about running a GO on the Triplex for me. I would really appreciate it and would even have a nice thing to say about your Yankees.
Lol!
Sorry pal, I have to work both days. Perhaps another time.
-Stef
"-Train runs lite to 207th St for retirement "
Does the GO say that? General Orders are written by Rapid Transit Operations, not Car Equipment. It would be Car Equipment's decision as to whether the cars are to be retired.
David
New lesson: do your system checks and wheel readings EARLY! If you slack, you spend the day working hard to find your car scrapped at 2PM. If you check and find scrapped wheels, you get a day of rest. CED MAKES TRAINS GO and STOP too. Bring a Redbird home. CI Peter
Hello Sir! Let me try to be brief on this matter:
When you address me, please don't be snobbish. I know you work for NYCT, but it doesn't make you an exceptional poster here. I am well aware of what CED and what RTO do. I have heard from a source of the cars' imminent retirement. If I am mistaken, then I will admit it.
The GO does state the cars are going to 207th St after the excursion is over.
I hope everyone enjoys their trip on Sunday.
Regards,
Stef
Sorry if I came across as snobbish -- it certainly wasn't the intent of my post. I haven't read the GO (a friend of mine in the office has it, but I don't), and I was really curious as to the wording.
BTW, for those who don't know, "Stef" also works for NYCT.
David
Wouldn't it be strange if they were going to be readied for scrap right as they were retired into 207? Wow... :-)
Didn't read BMTman's post prior to posting. Damn!
Somebody break into one of the cabs and snatch me a pair of stands ... I'm going to post a new thread on an idea that I'd be willing to offer for transit museums of all kinds if interested ...
I have word from reliable source within NYCT that the R22/36 train is heading up to 207th after the Excursion precisely for preparation for being loaded onto the barges for reefing.
So in a sense Sunday's trip IS a 'Farewell to Redbirds' (those in particular).
In that case, you'll all have to sing:
Goodbye Redbirds,
Goodbye Redbirds,
Goodbye Redbirds,
We're going to sink you now. (sniff-sniff)
Grab a roller curtain ot two while you're at it.:-)
Think about it. There are four full R62A trains on the 7 line. This means that 44 cars are no longer needed at Flushing, four of which are singles. As it is, the trains have to be taken to the mainline via CI and Concourse. The assumption should be that the 4 singles on the trip are the first 4 singles to be retired.
Remember what happens when one "ASSumes..."
First off, there are not four trains of R-62As in #7 service; there are five as of last week.
Second, my understanding is that with the exception of 9321 (dunked due to damage) and 9306 (in the Transit Museum since its inception in 1976), all R-33 single units are to be preserved for work service.
Third, with the fantrip ending at Times Square, the logical place for the train (which will be made up of #7 cars) to go is 207th Street Yard, since from there, at some later time, it can be sent back to the #7 via several maneuvers starting with a transfer to IND mainline tracks.
David
I don't think that Subdivision-C would know that a fifth R62A train would enter service before the trip.
I was under the impression that some R33 singles would be perserved for work service but not all.
I was told it would be all single R-33s (except 9321 and 9306, as previously explained). Since it hasn't happened yet, though, all I can say for sure is that it will be somewhere between 0 and 38 of them :-)
David
What time is it due to get back to Times Square?
Unsure. Perhaps about 5PM. The fantrips I rode previously ended about this time.
-Stef
Who cares? :)
--Mark
If they ever want to tear that part down, all they'd have to do is park a Triplex on it. Nahh, they'd have to sacrifice the Triplex.
The el WILL be rockin'! The D-Type was never meant to go there! I'm drooling all over my keyboard just thinking about it! Nothing like the hard-core BMT! I cannot wait! I bought a new 64MB flash card for my digital camera. My 4MB will not be enough!
Tony
Bring a parachute. :)
Or practice yelling, "TIMMM-BERRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!"
>>>I'm drooling all over my keyboard just thinking about it<<<
WARNING: Do NOT drool on the keyboard, This can cost you $$$. Drool at the R/F window instead. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
My friend blew out his keyboard by spilling beer into it. :D
What a terrible waste of perfectly good beer.
Peace,
ANDEE
In response to a query a Michele Johnson @ aar.com confirms by e-mail that Amtrak Superliners WERE tested at Pueblo. Although I made the distinction between 1's and 2's her response was not precise. However even if only the 2's were tested, the COG issue would have surfaced in my view. Thus I believe they were deemed safe to operate. Whether bi-levels are a good idea seems to have been answered as we have nearly a half century of generally good history. (Five bucks says the total number of wrecks on ATSF involving their El Cap & SF Chief bilevels were few and far between. Ditto The various Chicago area commuter trains.
Wasn't Amtrak looking at electric brakes for its Auto Train (Amtrak's longest and tail heavy train).
Phil Hom
UHOH get the strike boards out !!I heard today from a very reliable source that the M,J,L will all be opto as soon as there is enough 143's on the property.Now I have worked all 3 lines and ridership is not overwelming but I dont think Opto can fly on these lines..
Seeing as only part of the M fleet and none of the J/Z fleet will be R-143's, I find this hard to believe.
I believe the plan is for the M weekend/late night shuttle to go OPTO. That's it.
What is your "very reliable" source? I've found that the "very reliable" sources on these boards tend to be the least reliable.
Certainly NOT on the "J", probably NOT on the mainline "M" either. Perhaps on the "M" shuttle, as has been rumoured.
wayne
Well it's 100% guaranteed that the M shuttle will be OPTO on the weekends. All the M will need is 20 R143's. 4 sets for service and 1 set for a spare.
I have also heard within the TA that when the 143's are all operating that the J would be OPTO on weekends. That would be as tough as the 3 round trippers on the G if not harder.
And the L may wind up being OPTO, but only when CBTC is fully operational and not before.
The R143's have to be paid for somehow, and it will be paid by C/R's.
No. No. No. No. No. No. No...Oh, you get the point.
The J is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY too busy a route for the MTA to be screwing OPTO onto it. The M maybe, but one word of advice to the MTA: Don't even try, or think about it. It'll be a disaster.
-J!
OPTO on the J would actually work fine. Not that I'm for it, but if the TA could run OPTO on the G with decent crowds, then what makes you think that the TA couldn't run it on a lightly used line such as the J?
Announced Monday. Click here for story.
I read a couple of brief blurbs on the transit forum on nj.com about an "X Plan" that called for an expansion of subway service to Hudson County, among other things. I also heard something like that here, but thought it was just talk.
Anybody know anything more about this X PLAN?
Thanks.
This was talked about in the message board at nycrail.com.Apparently this "X-plan" will extend the L train to Hoboken and theres a plan for something else too.this really would be something if it went through,although the 2nd Ave. subway comes first.no doubt about it.
"Apparently this "X-plan" will extend the L train to Hoboken"
That's not what the press release said. The "plan" (which has 0 concurrence from the MTA) is to extend the L to 11 Ave and connect there to a new light rail tunnel to Hoboken.
The whole thing is useless. A trip from anywhere in NJ other than immediately at Hoboken terminal to midtown NYC is 4 rides!
If it were an extension of the L-train to Hoboken, taking over a NJT Line or two would be nice! Montclair perhaps?
That sounds like part of the NYC 2012 "Olympic X" proposal. It includes a transportation system in the shape of an "X". The NW-SE route is rail, while the SW-NE route is water (high-speed ferries).
Check out: http://www.nyc2012.com/
I hope the passengers on that train realize it's staying right where it is, in the museum.
It seems to me that a 2nd Avenue subway would make a good north-south stroke of the X. I wonder why that idea wasn't put forth.
Mark
I didn't realize Mayor Bloomberg had such gymnastic ability!
I think that picture is a fake. The Transit Museum was closed for renovations (and the cars covered) for a few months when he was sworn in.
Peace,
ANDEE
This question may seem dumb, but why is it known as the X-Plan? Wouldn't it be more appropriate as the L-Plan?
It comes from the X shape that the two lines (one rail, one ferry) will make. You can see the map at www.nyc2012.com.
Mark
Ok, thanks.
The Olympic map shows a new crossing to NJ from the Javits Center. It has nothing to do with a 14th Street crossing.
Just letting everybody know that I've been in touch with a large archtecture firm in Philadelphia that wants to interview me for a position in their historic preservation department. The interview will be the afternoon of Thursday, June 13th. Wish me luck!
Here's my tentative itinerary:
Thursday, June 13th: Fly into Philly first thing in the morning, drop off my bags, and do the interview thing. I'll probably also pay a visit to Drexel University and poke around a bit there.
Friday, June 14th: Spend the day exploring Philadelphia's neighborhoods, and depending on how well the interview goes, maybe even looking at some apartments.
Saturday, June 15th: Take SEPTA/NJT to New York, pay my respects at Ground Zero, and spend the day riding the subways and generally hanging out. That evening I want to visit Coney Island, and I'll return to Philly late that night. Any SubTalkers who want to join me for any of these activities, and possibly show me to the best pizza joint in town for lunch or dinner, are welcome to contact me.
Sunday, June 16th: Go to church somehwere in Philly that morning (anybody know of any large, active Episcopal parishes in Philly with a traditional liturgy, progressive theology, and with a lot of young adults in the congregation?), and then spend the rest of the day doing more exploring of the city. If the weather's nice, maybe I'll hang out in Fairmount Park.
Monday, June 17th: More exploring, and then fly back to Chicago that evening.
None of this is written in stone yet, but I plan to buy my plane tickets tomorrow. I'll let everybody know when it's all confirmed, and/or if there's any changes to my plans. Like I said, anybody wishing to join me for any of this, particularly in NYC, respond here or send me an e-mail.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Dave,
I'd like to join you in your activities to return the hospitality that you extended on our trip to Chicago last year, but I'll be out of town that weekend.
Bob
When would you be free for a SEPTA regional rail trip? I'm thinking R3 to West Trenton + some other stuff? Friday's are ideal for me. Other weekdays would need to have a lunch stop while I attended my class at Penn.
Why are you taking classes at UPenn every summer?
Coney Island could be a possibility for us.
Sounds good. Watch SubTalk for more detailed plans.
-- David
Chicago, IL
None of this is written in stone yet, but I plan to buy my plane tickets tomorrow.
www.ata.com -- cheap fares from MDW
Alicia
I was planning both an NYC and SEPTA trip, but I was going to have them on a weekday as weekend transit generally sucks. Is there any way you could shift your SEPTA adventure to Friday the 14th? I also am taking a class at UPenn from 1 to 2:30 M-R so if you want to do lunch on any of those day's I'm free.
Why do you want to go hang around ground zeor anyway? One its depressing and two you're from Chicago. It'll just get your feeling frusterated.
I probably won't have time to do much hardcore railfanning. I actually plan on renting a car and using that to get around most of the weekend. Instead of taking SEPTA/NJT to NYC, I may actually drive to Newark and take PATH instead, which would leave my schedule more flexible. How much would it cost to park all day near the Journal Square PATH station all day on a Saturday?
I'm not going to "hang around" Ground Zero; I'm going there to pay respects to the 2800+ people I saw murdered on live television. I also want to see the site for myself so that no matter what gets built there in the future, I'll never forget the way it looks now. It's something I feel like I need to do, and being from Chicago has nothing to do with it. I wouldn't expect you to understand.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I actually drove to Newark once and took PATH from there. It was in 1994 and I forget how much it was, but more recently I have driven to Trenton and took NJT into NYC. There is a nice parking facility next to the station and there is ample room remaining on weekends. I don't have an exact price, but it is definitly reasonable. The parking lot has PRR Keystones on its signs. The hardest thing is finding the Trenton station, but all you readdy have to do it just keep driving toward the catenary towers, and I think they have put up more signs in recent years.
You could also park at the Hamelton Station. It has a HUGE parking lot that I believe is FCFS and is right off the freeway. I-95 does this wierd loop around Trenton so Hamelton would be easier to get to comming from philly as it does not require crossing the river below Trenton. Anyway, comming from I-95 you'll loop around Trenton and start heading south. As soon as you drive over the NEC, you need to get off at the next exit, it should be marked for the station. You get off, take the next right, find a parking spot, pay the 50 cents at the parking machine thing and then hop a corridor train.
Some of Hamilton's lots are FCFS, some are parking-sticker only. Others are parking-sticker until 10 AM. On weekdays the spaces are often filled before 8 AM. From then until 10, when a train comes in, each driver picks a passenger to follow into the lot to get their spot.
Parking costs $3. I routinely take NJT from Hamilton when going to Newark or NYC.
photo of Hamilton station
another photo of Hamilton station
On weekdays the spaces are often filled before 8 AM. From then until 10, when a train comes in, each driver picks a passenger to follow into the lot to get their spot.
Does this mean they ought to be charging more for parking, or expanding the parking spaces?
Alicia
Expanding the parking spaces, not just there but at Princeton Junction. A lot of Hamilton's commuters are actually driving south to get there because the Princeton Junction parking situation is so absurd. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of options for expansion at PJ so adding more at Hamilton, either as a larger open lot or as a Metropark/Iselin-style deck may be the only reasonable solution.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's like a three year waiting list for a monthly parking permit at Princeton Junction.
Only three? Then things are improving... last I heard (about three or four years ago) the wait was between four and five.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>>Take SEPTA/NJT to New York, pay my respects at Ground Zero, and spend the
day riding the subways and generally hanging out. That evening I want to visit Coney Island, and I'll
return to Philly late that night. Any SubTalkers who want to join me for any of these activities, and
possibly show me to the best pizza joint in town for lunch or dinner, are welcome to contact me. <<<
I'll join yez...it's a shame you won't be in NYC the FOLLOWING weekend since June 22nd is the Coney Island mermaid parade.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Dammit! I've read about the Mermaid Parade on the web, and it sounds like fun. Maybe next year.
I'll be in contact with you when my plans have been finalized.
-- David
Chicago, IL
A huge obstacle that has overshadowed Subway Expansion is the ever-unpopular NIMBY influence. In the past, the line was built; people were evicted and send packing. The expansion of the subway was more important then the people living in the area where the subway was going through. (I do agree that was cruel) Now NIMBY's fight to the bitter end to make sure that no subway doesn't even come close to them, even if the purpose would be extremely beneficial. Now how come NIMBY's say "Not in my backyard" but if they propose the same plan but in an area where it doesn't affect them they give the thumbs up? That’s what aggravates me. It seems that the NIMBY's are selfish of their property value rather then what the majority of the city needs. Now I am asking this, should the wanting of the Majority when it comes to subway expansion override what the NIMBY's want? If more people want the line, and it totally outweighs the number of the NIMBY's should the NIMBY voice be silenced and construction allowed for the benefit of the city? It is a tougher question then it seems, because there are 2 sides to the issue. So opinions?
Well, this NIMBY influence has gotten even more impacting in terms of any of these situations, because back then, these people didn't have the rights or abilities they had in comparison to today.
It is unfortunate that NIMBY's don't see what can benefit, but rather as you put it, they are 'selfish of their property value'.
How can we influence them otherwise? I've got a couple of suggestions though to people, they make like it or not, your decision.
Perhaps incentives are good? Paying money or offering something, in laymen terms, a bribe.
Or, the MTA could have better public meetings about these issues. I am aware that they do have them, but they don't have them often enough and the meetings are held sporiadically throughout the city. It would make sense if they had them in a grand room of some sort, where people and representatives alike can talk about these things.
You've made a very astute observation. Sometimes (not always, not even most of the time) someone obstructs the way to an important project because he/she doesn't feel his/her opinion was given any hearing, or because he/she was not included in "the process." So buying people off with a new schoolyard, street beautification, or hiring them to a consulting post and giving them lots of public credit can be helpful in getting them to keep quiet as the breaking ground event nears.
To some degree, AirTrain benefitted from this.
Do you have a specific proposed line in mind?
It's a hard question, especially when you consider that a new transit lines may actaully raise property values in the long run. I'm reminded of the NIMBY opposition that kept the DC Metro out of Georgetown. Now decades later, Georgetown residents see the benefits of such a line and are clamoring for a rail line.
So sometimes overriding the NIMBYs may be to their benefit in the long run. And keep in mind that I'm not the kind of person who likes to be told what's good for me, so the issue becomes complicated, here.
Mark
Georgetown is finally waking up...
I think there can be an element of class/racism involved in certain places. If a neighborhood is very ethnically and conomically homogeneous, the locals may not want a subway that might allow people of other ethnic groups or lower income easy access.
On the other hand, in areas where everyone already has easy access, NIMBYs seem to be less of a problem. I haven't heard people on the Upper East Side say they don't want the 2nd Ave subway.
Problem with the NIMBYs is that they can always force another hearing and another study until hell freezes over.
Screw them! Build the Subways!
Elias
I haven't heard people on the Upper East Side say they don't want the 2nd Ave subway.
Maybe so, but they haven't done much in terms of pressuring the politicians for its construction. This is a really sad lost opportunity, as Upper East Siders quite often have enough money and influence to get things accomplished if they so choose.
(I haven't heard people on the Upper East Side say they don't want the 2nd Ave subway. Maybe so, but they haven't done much in terms of pressuring the politicians for its construction.)
Make no mistake, they want the subway. But how many of them will show up? The people who will show up are those looking to be paid off in exchange for allowing the thing to be built, not the other 99 percent of the residents.
You haven't been paying attention, Larry. They have shown up for this project - in massive numbers. The support for Second Av Subway has been visible and overwhelming. A beautiful sight to behold, and unfortunately very rare in history - but fortunate for us.
If there are any NIMBYs in the crowd (there might be) they have already been run over.
I thought I did hear some upper East Siders upset about subway construction, they wanted all these "environmental impact" studies done. NIMBY's always turn to the environment when trying to stop projects. Even when the project might benefit the environment, like electrifying the Oyster Bay branch and not polluting the air with diesel engines.
NIMBY is not a problem with the Second Av subway, thankfully. Nor would it be a problem for a 7 line extension to the Javits Center.
Good to see you back in action, Ron. Now my questions - would there be opposition to building a new East River tunnel connecting the stub end of the Second Ave. station to the station shell at South 4th Street in Brooklyn so that more access between Brooklyn and Manhattan could be achieved? And while we are at it, when will the lower level tunnels of the 63rd St. line - the ones built for the LIRR get some use?
And while we are at it, when will the lower level tunnels of the 63rd St. line - the ones built for the LIRR get some use?
With the East Side access project still on track, the LIRR level of the 63rd Street tunnel shoulg be carrying trains from sunnyside to Grand Central fairly soon.
Great to see you back too, Doc. East Side Access is under construction on the Queens side. The lower level 63rd Street tunnel is being extended into the Sunnyside Yard and being expanded to multiple tunnels connecting the new line to the Main Line, the Port Washington Branch and to the yard. I imagine they could have it all done in three years, but that's just a guess.
The other end of the tunnel dead-ends at Second Av and 63rd Street in Manhattan. The Manhattan side is what will take a while - blast or bore a new tunnel over to Park Avenue, south on Park Av under the Metro-North main line (so LIRR and Metro-North trains don't interfere with each other and schedules are unaffected) to a new LIRR platform, ticket office and customer waiting areas at a new lower level in Grand Central. (LIRR and Metro-North's sharing of tracks was a rejected alternative in the EIS for a number of good reasons). Grand Central will then need new escalators, elevators, signage and perhaps renovated entrances. All this will likely take until 2010 to complete, though the 9/11 tragedy has given the project greater importance - maybe we'll see it done sooner.
I hope we are still alive to see it become a reality. The Second Ave. subway might not make it, but I hold out some hope to be able to ride it some day.
NIMBY is not a problem with the Second Av subway, thankfully. Nor would it be a problem for a 7 line extension to the Javits Center.
Of course, it could be that there have been no protests because neither project has yet gotten beyond the talking stage. Should things progress further, I've no doubt that some opponents will come crawling from under their rocks.
Under their rocks being the key words........
I can understand the NIMBY's in terms of el construction (such as extending the Astoria line), but I can't understand when it has to do with underground subway or ROW such as the Rockaway Branch. A few years of inconvenience while they are building it leads to a lifetime of benefit. Sure it's a mess while they have all the streets ripped up, but it's worth it.
As for Astoria, I think it will negatively impact the road the new el travels on on it's way to LaGuardia, but it is fopr the greater good. Besides the neighborhood around the current Astoria el is no slum, and everyone has lived with it all these years, so I feel it will be like that on the extension also. ANd if NIMBY's don't like it, move somewhere else. In compromise, the city can maybe offer a one time offer of monetary value for the people right along the new el. Take it or leave it. No one is forcing them to stay.
NIMBY's should be silenced. The wishes of the majority of the city's residents are more important than just a few people.
If people are forced to move, then they should be entitled complete re-embursment from the government or business doing the construction, and the full market value of their home.
There was a time when the eminent domain power was used, and frequently. It gave us our bridges, our subways, our roads, and our power plants. But with the lawyer culture we are in, it is hard to exercise that power now.
The three most important transit related construction that NIMBY has interfered with would be
The Second avenue subway, which is sorely needed to ease congestion on the overcrowded Lex lines (enough environmental studies,just build the damn thing)
The abandoned LIRR Rockaway branch (spur) between Ozone Park and Whitepot(?). It would make an extremely useful way to access the Rockaways from the Queens Blvd line, and probably increase property values in that area
The LIRR Lower Montauk branch, another great opportunity for subway or other rail service. NIMBY's in Maspeth don't even like the few LIRR diesels that go down that way. I would like to see the M train go down this ROW and continue to the existing M route.
If people are forced to move, then they should be entitled complete re-embursment from the government or business doing the construction, and the full market value of their home.
This is exactly what happens now. Sometimes, they add around 10% to the market value to get people to sell.
There was a time when the eminent domain power was used, and frequently. It gave us our bridges, our subways, our roads, and our power plants. But with the lawyer culture we are in, it is hard to exercise that power now.
I would much rather have NIMBYs than a Robert Moses that goes wherever he pleases.
True, Moses was a pain and he didn't fully understand the consequences of his plans. Though he did get bridges built to connect all of the boros. I'll saty away from highways because they're a different story, altogether. You have to admit, his surefire attitute got things done.
I don't agree with alot of his methods, but luckily alot of the projects did go through. Where would we be without the Whitestone, Throgs Neck, Verrazano, etc. No real bridges have been built since.
Um, wouldn't property value go UP with a subway near by? Haven't you noticed that businesses are built near subways? I use the Bronx as an example. Grand Concourse, White Plains Road, Westchester Avenue and Jerome Avenue all have an almost insane number of stores running the length of the Streets. Coincidence or subway influence? I say the latter. I would not mind a subway running past my windows. I <> that sound! :)
"love" should have been where <<>> is.
Then, tell me if you will, the fate of Third Avenue in the Bronx or of Myrtle Avenue in Brooklyn after the removal of thier lines.
Have these neighborhoods sufferd as a result?
Elias
Then, tell me if you will, the fate of Third Avenue in the Bronx or of Myrtle Avenue in Brooklyn after the removal of thier lines.
Have these neighborhoods sufferd as a result?
I think the Myrtle corridor was already a disaster before the el was removed. I think they thought the area would be helpped by the removal of the el, but I believe the opposite is true. If the el would have survived a few more years there would probably be a public outcry (ala the Franklin Shuttle) to save it.
So then, you do think that subway lines *improve* the value of neighborhoods.
Whe I was a kid, I remember going to my grandmothers house in Jamaica and watching them build huge appartment buildings all around her. She lived in a one family house on a street of detached one family houses in a shady treed neighborhood. But the big apparments came very near by... but no place else to that extent.
Well, what do you know but what the Hillside Avenue Subway was only a few blocks away.
I think that the presence of the line buildt the neighborhood. What say others?
Of course, maybe some eole do not *want* their neighborhoods to grow!
Elias
Well I know at least when the els were originally being built it was definitely true. I've seen photos of some the Bronx els being built along farmland! I know that the Ridgewood was built up as a result of the Myrtle el being extended through Ridgewood, and that has probably been repeated throughout the city.
The same should hold true now. Good transportation leads to development. Although it's not a given, many parts of Brooklyn and the Bronx have fallen into shambles, even as the el drove by.
You are correct in that subways can encourage higher density. After all, the Flushing subway turned western Queens farms into city. But a corollary to that (and consequence) is that by increasing demand for that land, the price of that land (economics 101) goes up. The increase in density is not universally true, however, especially when smart land planning accompanies the transit line.
Recently, increases in property values, property tax collection, rents other economic activity were documented in Atlanta after MARTA opened; in Bethesda after MetroRail's Red Line opened (actually, values began going up in anticipation of the line opening), on Roosevelt Island as the 63rd Street line prepared to open, and in Jamaica after the Archer Av line opened. Jamaica took longer to develop, but the effect is clear. The quality of life improved as well, measured in economic investment and reduced crime.
But you are right that subways don't belong absolutely everywhere - and not all communities want or need higher density.
subways don't belong absolutely everywhere - and not all communities want or need higher density.
It's the fact that subways are not everywhere that creates the higher density where they exist. If NYC had a policy of providing a subway station within walking distance from every point within it, then the poplulation density would be fairly uniform. I offer Paris as such an example where the goal of providing a Metro entrance within 300 meters to every point within the 20 arrondisments was achieved by the 1930's.
Yes, I agree with you -to a point. Other factors, such as land planning/policy, will influence this as well.
(It's the fact that subways are not everywhere that creates the higher density where they exist. If NYC had a policy of providing a subway station within walking distance from every point within it, then the poplulation density would be fairly uniform. I offer Paris as such an example where the goal of providing a Metro entrance within 300 meters to every point within the 20 arrondisments was achieved by the 1930's. )
True in the 1930s, perhaps, but not now. Bigger buildings are more expensive per square foot to build. And they sell for less per square foot than small homes. It takes very high land values, especially where existing buildings must be purchased and replaced. Manhattan has those land values; few other parts of the city do.
Let's look at a place that has a subway, and is a wide street where big buildings can be accomodated without blocking light and air to other buildings -- 4th Avenue in Brooklyn. The northern section was rezoned R8 in the early 1990s, allowing 6.0 times the size of the lot in floor area. That's an 18 story building with one-third lot coverage. What did we get? Nada.
When the tore down the Jamaica El in Jamaica the businesses suffered alot, and property values went into the toilet.
When the tore down the Jamaica El in Jamaica the businesses suffered alot, and property values went into the toilet.
Not that I agree with the removal of the el, but Jamaica's business district was in the toilet even before the el was removed. But in their wisdom they said (sarcastic) "Let's make it harder for people to get to Jamaica Avenue......That will improve the business district." They thought shedding light on Jamaica Ave would bring people back to Jamaica Avenue and improve the appearance. What it really did is allow light onto Jamaica Ave and then people were really able to see what a shambles it was in!
" 'When they tore down the Jamaica El in Jamaica the businesses suffered a lot, and property values went into the toilet.'
Not that I agree with the removal of the el, but Jamaica's business district was in the toilet even before the el was removed. But in their wisdom they said (sarcastic) "Let's make it harder for people to get to Jamaica Avenue......That will improve the business district." They thought shedding light on Jamaica Ave would bring people back to Jamaica Avenue and improve the appearance. What it really did is allow light onto Jamaica Ave and then people were really able to see what a shambles it was in! "
Well, that may be so; but surely the main source of business for the stores near the el stations was the passengers getting on and off the trains, so it was predictable that, when they took the stations away, the business would disappear.
On my visit to NY last week I visited a lot of the termini of the elevated sections (like Wakefield, Van Cortland Park and Ditmars[Astoria]) for the first time, and it was noticeable that around these elevated stations there were thriving groups of stores and restaurants, mostly small, individually owned businesses, not parts of large chains. El stations (and I guess underground ones too) are good for small business!
El stations (and I guess underground ones too) are good for small business!
I do agree with that. You have to remember that on their way to the subway (or home ffom the subway) people stop for food, coffee, etc, or stop at the drug store for whatever they may need, maybe see a pair of shoes on their way, etc. These businesses loose this foot traffic and spur of the moment purchases.
Actually, yes they have, in terms of lost economic opportunity.
Elias wrote:
>
> Then, tell me if you will, the fate of Third Avenue
> in the Bronx or of Myrtle Avenue in Brooklyn after the
> removal of thier lines.
>
> Have these neighborhoods sufferd as a result?
I'd say Myrtle Ave. in the Ft. Greene/Clinton Hill area clearly illustrates the effect of having a subway nearby. This area is gentrifying at breakneck speed, and yet the area north of Lafayette Ave. (G train) is not. Residentially speaking, if there were any kind of rail transportation on Myrtle Ave., people would be paying over $1,000/month for apartments between Myrtle and the BQE. Commercially, it's even clearer. There's been a lot of commercial growth along Fulton St. (served by the A/C) in the past three years with new small businesses opening or existing ones spruicing themselves up. While there has also been some commercial growth on Myrtle Ave., it hasn't been quite as impressive. Also, I would imagine that subway accesibility was at least a factor for the people who put up the money to convert the abandoned brake parts factory on Vanderbilt and Fulton into a big telecom exchange.
Redbirds Rule is correct. Go look at Jamaica ave where the tore down the el it was once as busy as Jamaica center now it is a abandoned ghetto. Go look at where the el goes under ground, and for the next mile afterwards going west along Jamaica ave, and compare it the where the el stands. Ripping down els always bring poor economic conditions to the neiborhood. Especially if it is a minority/low income community.
Where an elevated transit line is not replaced with new transit facilities, you are correct. In addition, there is always some transient pain when prolonged construction happens.
If politicians have any backbones, they would shut the NIMBYs up and shove their placards up their a**es, take a sacrifice, and build the damn lines. Greedy bastards like NIMBYs are nothing more than ignorant homeowners trying to get that little bit more cash for their already crap land values.
Last time I checked, in Hong Kong, the land values are actually RISING along the new Tseung Kwan O extension. I'm sure this phenomenon also happens in cities all around the world. If someone would open their eyes, I'm sure they will keep their mouths shut when a subway line is proposed.
*ahem* Excusez moi, si vous plait. :)
-J!
"Last time I checked, in Hong Kong, the land values are actually RISING along the new Tseung Kwan O extension. "
They don't *want* their land values to rise.
They want you to stay the heck out of their neighborhoods.
Probly is racial, but they can't *say* that either.
I say, build the lines!
Elias
The only interest that NIMBYs have are the same interest the girls in the Salem witchcraft trials had. Publicity, if the media would stop showing some big fat minority hoochie mama with a sign in her hand and her kid in another there would be subways built. [I am referring to the 10'oclock newses (I know it a grammar problem)]. If this was only Canada the media would lose their license and immediately hauled off to jail (no freedom of speech). If there were laws against yellow journalism upn and fox would be in a shitload of trouble.
If there were laws against yellow journalism upn and fox would be in a shitload of trouble.
Luckily there aren't, some old document called "The Constitution" has this weird "Freedom of Speech" thing that stands in the way.
P.S. UPN doesn't have a news organization. Channel 9 (WWOR) is owned by Chris-Craft Industries, an independent company.
The only interest that NIMBYs have are the same interest the girls in the Salem witchcraft trials had.
Very true. Just wait for them to accuse Rev Hale's wife...
I remember that same BULL in atlanta !! the NIMBYS of gwinnett &
cobb and clayton counties of georgia !! 1983 - 1988
Crying bloddy murder!! Hell no "U" aint' gonna' git MARTA out hear'!
We aint' goin' have those UNDISERABLES in our neighborhood !!!
bringing in CRIME with em'....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hell No !!!!!!!!!!
One law:
Pollution tax, that would be added on every gas gallon or between inspections (if you can prove you used mass transit or more greener solutions it is less, IRS style)
Tax law is an inequitable way to enforce policy.
Taxes are *supposed* to raise revenue for a government, rather than being a means of enforcing policy.
You need less cars somewhere, erect tolls.
You need cleaner air, require new cars to polute less.
I think it is better to address issues directly.
Elias
Tolls Are taxes.
I thought of that after I posted.
Maybe they are and maybe they are not. (The bridge at Dingman's Ferry comes to mind.... it is privately owned and maintained.)
Ok... you need to keep cars out of an area: CLOSE IT! ~by permit only~
Elias
Tolls are user fees, you only pay if you use it.
Tolls are user fees, you only pay if you use it.
Hurrah for Piggy! I see someone has great American ideals! :D
yea..........
[A huge obstacle that has overshadowed Subway Expansion is the ever-unpopular NIMBY influence. In the past, the line was built; people were evicted and send packing.... Now NIMBY's fight to the bitter end to make sure that no subway doesn't even come close to them, even if the purpose would be extremely beneficial.]
What's even more annoying is the tendency of NIMBYs to show up AFTER the fact. They'll move into a neighborhood and then complain about subways, bus depots, airports, night clubs, and other things that were already there!!! (For example, cries of "environmental racism" over bus depots in Harlem, which was an ALL-WHITE area when the depots were first built.) What's up with that?
(What's even more annoying is the tendency of NIMBYs to show up AFTER the fact. They'll move into a neighborhood and then complain about subways, bus depots, airports, night clubs, and other things that were already there!!! (For example, cries of "environmental racism" over bus depots in Harlem, which was an ALL-WHITE area when the depots were first built.) What's up with that?)
Black people playing a nasty game that affluent White people have played for decades, but using their own particular method -- crying racism.
Many of the Whites who showed up to complain about the Astoria Line extension to LaGuardia said that the entire line should be torn down, because it bothers senior citizens. And Yuppies who moved to Sunset Park -- and hope for a big real estate value increase so they can sell and move out of the city -- are behind the push to get rid of the Gowanus Expressway.
Then there are the "artists" of Soho, an "industrial" area that permits "joint living-work quarters for artists" as long as they have at least 1,800 square feet of floor area, and are thus unaffordable to just about everyone but the rich. Rezone to residential and commercial, the kinds of uses actually there? Forget it, they say, it will ruin the area's "character." But just try to operate an industrial business in Soho now. There were some Chinese fruit and vegtable wholesalers there, and the "community" went nuts and drove them out.
What value is the land if it takes 45 minute to move 1 mile from it?
What value is the land if it takes 45 minute to move 1 mile from it?
Some people must walk slowly...
By car I ment. There are some streches of highway (where the bruckner meets with I-295 in bronx 25 to 35 mph traffic) where there will be traffic jams 24/7. I was driving down the BQE one night from the verizanno a 3:40 AM and there was was a stop and go traffic jam. No construction, just where the highway splits.
By car I ment.
I know you did. My point was that if it were going to take me any more than 20 minutes to drive a mile, I'd be better off walking. Well, at least until it rains...
>>Many of the Whites who showed up to complain about the Astoria Line extension to LaGuardia said that the entire line should be torn down, because it bothers senior citizens. And Yuppies who moved to Sunset Park -- and hope for a big real estate value increase so they can sell and move out of the city -- are behind the push to get rid of the Gowanus Expressway.<<
>>What's even more annoying is the tendency of NIMBYs to show up AFTER the fact. They'll move into a neighborhood and then complain about subways, bus depots, airports, night clubs, and other things that were already there!!! (For example, cries of "environmental racism" over bus depots in Harlem, which was an ALL-WHITE area when the depots were first built.) What's up with that?<<
You hit the nail on the head. I can't stand people who complain about things that were already there. You know what I say, keep em there. Keep the bus depot's there, keep the Astoria line there and damn sure keep the Airport's there. And something else, THE HELL WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES. Build the Second Avenue line already. And If YOU don't like it, MOVE!
THE HELL WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES
Actually, environmental studies are very essential for building any type of infrastructure. Engineers need to know what's there, how the water drains, what will change, etc. However, the type of "environmental" studies that go on for years should really be called "political studies" because they have nothing to do with the environment. They use the "environmental" ploy to cover up the deals and other bullshit that are really being "studied."
I'm sure he realized that! It seems too long to be doing them anyway!
Yup, that's what an EIS should be called, a Political Impact Study.
Yup, that's what an EIS should be called, a Political Impact Study.
I'd suggest Political Impact Systems Study. Makes for a more appropriate acronym.
I LOVE IT !!!
From Wed 5/22's New York Times ... The piece consists of sound generators and a loudspeaker installed in a subway ventilation chamber, which is covered by the grate that pedestrians scurry over.
--Mark
... ChicagoMotorman & I will be conducting a field trip all day Thursday 5/23; if any T/Os who follow this board are working Thursday 5/23, let me know approximate times and where you're working, and we'll keep an eye out for you! I'll be wearing my Subway Series cap and one of my NYC Subway Line t-shirts, CM wil be wearing a Chicago Cubs hat. So if you see us, say hi!
Also, and this is OT, any recommendations for a good deli in Manhattan? (I already know about Adelman's in Brooklyn?) If you'd rather e-mail responses to this OT request, send it to mark_train@hotmail.com. Thank you!
--Mark
How about Conductors ? If so I will be working on the No.5 Line
Yes, sorry, I meant conductors, too :)
I just figured we'd probably be spending most of the time at the railfan window :)
--Mark
Conductors have railfan windows too.
I'm afraid the view isn't as exciting, though.
And if you're on a train without a railfan window anyway, what difference does it make if you're at the front of the train or in the middle?
I'll be working.... I just won't know where until the AM.
-Mark
... ChicagoMotorman & I will be conducting a field trip all day Thursday 5/23; if any T/Os who follow this board are working Thursday 5/23, let me know approximate times and where you're working, and we'll keep an eye out for you! I'll be wearing my Subway Series cap and one of my NYC Subway Line t-shirts, CM wil be wearing a Chicago Cubs hat. So if you see us, say hi!
Also, and this is OT, any recommendations for a good deli in Manhattan? (I already know about Adelman's in Brooklyn?) If you'd rather e-mail responses to this OT request, send it to mark_train@hotmail.com. Thank you!
--Mark
How about Katz's on Houston Street. You can even sit at the same table that Bill Clinton sat at. (If you want to!!!) A couple blocks east of the Allan Street exit of the 2nd Av Station on the "F". If driving there is plenty of metered parking within a couple of blocks of it. For Kosher there always is the 2nd Av Deli although I'm not sure which cross street its on on Second and there nearest subway would be the Lex which is on Park Av S. (Possibly the "L" 1rst Av Station is closer if its close to 14th St. But I still recommend Katz's, which by the way has the best hot dogs in NY including Nathans.
Sorry for the html mistake. I put a "b" instead of "P". I meant a new paragraph instead of bold. I guess I was too lazy to preview message, sorry!
Cross street is E 10 Street, excellent place. Although an orthodox friend of mine said he wasn't so sure how really kosher it is.
Its kosher supervision is done by a Conservative rabbi, so some won't eat there, either because they don't trust him or because he's likely to hold lenient opinions on some kashrut questions where most of the kosher world is stringent. It's open on the Sabbath, which raises a number of thorny issues. Nobody who keeps strictly kosher will eat at a restaurant just because a sign proclaims it kosher -- the individual or organization who vouches for the kashrut is important. (Would you go to a physician without first verifying that he has an M.D.? If he just introduced himself as "Doctor so-and-so," would that suffice?)
Thanks, Jeff ... that's actually one of the delis I was thinking of and I forgot which one it was ....
Kashrut is not an issue for this field trip, but thanks to all who provided feedback on same.
--Mark
I would have liked to have seen you guys on my train, but I'm off this week.
Nonetheless, have a good time on your field trip.
BTW, besides Katz's, you have the 2nd Ave. Deli on 2nd Av. around E.9th or E.10th St. There's also the Carnegie Deli on 55/7 but they're pricey.
Here is an interesting article from today's Times.
Don't post links to NYTimes, because no one can get in there. Post the text of the article.
All you have to do is register. It's free.
Peace,
ANDEE
You can get it; you have to register at the site and registration is free.
--Mark
I don't see a problem with the Times, as the others have said; you register one time and it is free. My experience is that I have not gotten a bunch of junk eamil as a result registering with the Times.
And in my opinion (and that is all it is, an opinion) the Times a truely outstanding newspaper, getting it free online is a bargin.
Posting the text of an entire article is a copyright violation.
There are also some well known password combos for it. "cypher/cypher" used to be one, I'm not sure if it's still active.
I believe that Metra in Chicago still operates on private "club" car between Chicago and Waukeekan on the UP-North line, a holdover from the C&NW days. I'm not sure if Metra owns the car or the club does; it's an ancient (1949) single level coach tucked in right behind (at least on outbound trips, I guess it's in front on inbound trips) to locomotive.
-- Ed Sachs
I have seen this on the 6:31 p.m. express to Kenosha Wisconsin. Once I read in Fortune Magazine 500 Richest Towns In America issue that some Lake Forest Metra commuters own a private railcar. Does anyone have information about this, and does this car also have a bar?
I'm familiar with the car in question, and it is indeed owned by a group of wealthy Lake Forest commuters. Not sure if it has a bar or not, but I did take a peek inside one day at North Western Station a long time ago. As I recall, the interior was actually fairly unremarkable. Certainly nothing like one of the classy private coaches on display out at IRM.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Interesting piece indeed. If there were enough willing takers, would Amtrak have another car they could hook up behind the Clocker?
I've seen this car. While waiting at the EWR station, a train swept by. The last car had that fancy look, and a red rotating beacon flashed from the end of it.
Please advise when the next service changes due to the reconstrution of the Stillwell Avenue Terminal take effect and advise what they will be
Thank You
Early September will see Brighton locals cut back to Brighton Beach and Culver trains cut back to Ave X. RUMOR has Brighton expresses being cut back to kings Highway and a single track shuttle operating from Brighton Beach to W.8th St.
Wow sounds like they're doing to my old line what they've been doing to Unca Fred's line. I guess whining and moaning won't do any good. :)
Wow! that's what I was thinking. It looks as if the Sea Beach has actually been treated well in this whole Stillwell thing. Only the West End is making out in this project. Brighton seems to be totally screwed.
Uh oh, I don't think you shoulda said that...
-J!
Yeah, but a shuttle on the Brighton from King's Highway to West 8th! And the Culver all the way cut at Avenue X! Ouch!
Seriously though, Is the West End the only line that will be completing the run to Coney Island, and for how long? When will Stillwell be done?
Yep,only the W will be going to Coney Island,and the rehab is set to be completed by 2005.so before then the B will be the only one there and the D ending at Brighton Beach.
WAIT A MINUTE, you're being entirely too optimistic about the completion of the Manhattan Bridge north side track job, at the rate they're going, it doesn't look like they'll be finished much before 2010, if then.
wayne
hey,you never know.the one thing thats certain is that the N train wont return to Coney Island untill 2005,with exception of weekend and late night GO's that have it run over the West End and replace the W.
Having only the B to serve Stillwell after the north side of the bridge reopens could be a problem. What train will serve the stations between Canal Street and DeKalb Avenue? The R doesn't run north of 36th Street after midnight and the N will most likely be turned into a shuttle in September. The W is supposed to be rerouted to the Montague tunnel to replace the N there. But what will happen when the B is restored to Brooklyn? It might be a good idea to retain the W 24/7 after the B and D return to Brooklyn and continue to have it be the only train serving Stillwell. B trains could terminate at Bay Parkway. The M would then have to turn at Chambers or Broad.
Any other ideas?
>>>there and the D ending at Brighton Beach
It looks from the track map that there are switches between West 8th Street and Stillwell Avenue on both the Brighton and Culver Lines. Why not terminate Locals at West 8th Street then, laying up beyond the station? Having both the Brighton Local and the Brighton Express terminate at Brighton Beach is asking for congestion!
To clear the switches so they can be thrown requires the train to occupy a section of track that will be torn down in the rehab. No can do.
To clear the switches so they can be thrown requires the train to occupy a section of track that will be torn down in the rehab.
By much? Would 6-car trains work?
Stillwell Ave will not be closed for 3+ years. Anyone know how long it will really be closed?
I talked with one of the contractors last weekend. He swore it would be done on-time, since there is a $50,000.00/day penalty for failure to complete.
Holy moly!
Now did they have to get THAT drastic with the Brighton Line? I mean, single track is a pretty hard pill to swallow for such a long period of time...
-J!
P.S. So then only the West End will remain at Stillwell? Is that true, or will the W be cut back too soon?
>>P.S. So then only the West End will remain at Stillwell? Is that true, or will the W be cut back too soon?<<
Yes, the West End will remain in Stillwell during the reconstruction. First the Sea Beach, Brighton and Culver will be done and when they're completed, the West End will switch over to one of those three while their side gets redone.
Bill "Newkirk"
Oh NO, not another single-track shuttle! We suffered greatly at that Saturday on the "L", with a single train running on a half-hour schedule. They've GOT to do better than THAT!
wayne
It's a single track shuttle that makes THREE stops - W.8, Ocean Parkway, Brighton Beach. It shouldn't take more than 4 minutes in each direction.
Will there really be a Brighton shuttle train? From what I've heard, there was only going to be a bus.
- Lyle Goldman
A ... (gasp!) ... BUS?!?!
Forget what I said in other threads ... EVACUATE! :)
The B68 bus might be extended to Stillwell to cover for the Q service.
Rumor should be wrong-ish. The express and locals terminate fine at 57 Street. Why not Brighton Beach? Now finding a place to store the trains overnight may be a problem.
Are they still planning to tear the wall down at the end of the "express" tracks and abandon the Queens bound platforms at Bowery and Canal?
Also are there still plans to run the 2Ave subway down the extra tracks along the Nassau line? Either way, it seems that they would still have to remove the wall at the end of the tracks. It has to go whether the 2nd Ave line goes through there or if they just abandon the Queens platforms.
That wall is slated to be removed. One track on the existing Queens-bound side will be retained for non-revenue moves.
Yesterday as I was transferring from the Q to the W at Coney Island, I was forced to use the underpass to the mezzanine rather than the overpass (Dewey HS just let out, and it was too crowded). After coming up the stairwell to the West End platform, I noticed a curious old style conductor's "indicator" board hanging over the "ramp" coming up from the mezzanine. It said "B-6". I was wondering if this was meant for the old B-types? If so, I'm suprised I missed such an interesting relic for so many years.
You are right! That is a conductor board for a 6 car AB train.... There is a lot of history still in the system. You just need to know where to look.
-Mark
And to think the BMT standards haven't run to Coney Island since oh, 1965 or thereabouts.
That reminds me of some transit history now gone on some BMT lines. About ten years ago or so, there were some of those old BMT circular car stop markers. You know, dark blue with white numbers.
There was one on the Culver line IIRC at Ave P southbound platform. On the Sea Beach northbound platform Kings Highway IIRC. And there was a dandy 3 car marker on the northbound Marcy Ave station. All are now gone.
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe there's still a three car market at Dekalb Ave heading towards Coney Island ...
--Mark
When they start to do the renovation on that part of the station, someone should pull that down and pack it off to the Transit Museum.
A little piece of history!
wayne
Absolutely.
This is from another sites board, just wanted some thoughts.....
>>>For a few years now there have been students of about Jr. High School age selling candy (mostly M&M's) on the trains usually raising money for their basketball uniform or for a basketball team field trip.
Just wondering how legit this is because a few times these kids have been on the trains selling candy at 10 pm at night (on a school night) and I witnessed one of the students getting into an arguement with a passenger who kept saying no and then turned to his classmate and mumbled something about getting someone to kick that guys a**.
Then last weekend (Mothers Day), I saw a homeless-looking guy at the 207 street bridge standing in the middle of traffic with one of those same yellow M&M boxes looking like he was trying to sell candy.
M&M's and UHO affiliated?<<
Peace,
ANDEE
I've seen people doing that a lot. Sometimes they have their candy bars are in boxes that look like school fundraiser kits, and other times, they're in just any old box, looking like they were shoplifted from a grocery store.
Funny, these kids who claim to be raising money for football uniforms never seem to look like athletes.
Mark
Andee,
You can say where it came from. No one is going to bite you (at least not since heypaul isn't here).
It was posted on the Straphanger's Campaign board.
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=001528
Personally I think it has been discussed enough but if the rest of want to discuss - discuss.
Hey look, at least I didn't post it as my own. As some others have done. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
...and PS heypaul does not bite, in spite of popular opinion. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I think it's all a scam. The kids say they're trying to buy uniforms for their school team or afford a school trip. But they rarely say what school they're from. If anyone questioned them, they'll probably want to kick their a**.
Even if the cause is legitimate (whether it is or not, I don't know), they're not supposed to be selling anything on the subway.
David
According to informed sources, there will be 1 trip in July and 2 in August...details as they develop.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, BTW....all on sundays.
Peace,
ANDEE
Too bad they can't have one on October 13.:-(
Don't worry, Steve, I'll give you a personal excursion that will put all the others to shame.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're on. Just name the time and place.
>>It's OFFICIAL...3 "Triplex Trips" This Summer<<
Somebody alert Sea Beach Fred. Maybe he'll want to stay the summer in NYC. Of course DougBMTman can rent out his sofa !!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>Of course DougBMTman can rent out his sofa !! <<
At a "premium" price, of course. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Shhhhh! He'll go apesheet DEMANDING that it run up and down da SeaBits and never leave the damned line. :)
My daughter wants to visit New York in the worst way and, who knows, maybe I will come back in the summer. My plan originally was to come to the Big City in October when #1 Brighton Express Bob, my very dear friend, and fellow Subtalk pal Steve 8AVEXP would be in town. Somehow I got talked into coming tomorrow morning and so I get another trip out of it. Again, maybe I can come in the summer, too. I would love my wife to come with me. She loves the theatre and we can go to a couple of plays and take a tour of New York. Maybe.
Of course, you'll take Linda on an N train, too, right?:-)
You're still coming out in October, right? I've already booked my plane ticket and am flying in on Saturday, Oct. 12.
She doesn't get to go with me Steve unless she rides the Sea Beach. And she knows it.
where do i buy tickets ??
what webite do i go to to get them ??
where will the trip start from ???
See HERE click down on the right to "transit museum".
Peace,
ANDEE
oops I meant left
Talk of SUBTALKS return on another website/board
Peace,
ANDEE
Branford/Seashore People know that guy pretty well.
-Stef
Maybe TOO well...IYKWIM.
Peace,
ANDEE
Branford/Seashore People know that guy pretty well.
Phil D? Nope, different Phil D.
He is interested in being introduced to your Lady in Red, though ;)
Right, this Phil D. hails from Flushing...and he posted his picture at some point in that thread...no 'our' Parallel Phil...;-D
Hey DD,
I'll concur, that "Phil D" is not Seashore/Branford's "Parallel Phil".
Read his profile on the other board and his claim to employment and the photo don't coincide. Besides he calls himself "Big" Phil. He ain't met the tonner's to be called "Big". >G<
-Sparky
I agree, John. 'Our' Phil don't fit the 'profile'...heh, heh...
Hey Doug, I looked for you on the Triplex trip and came up empty. Were you out of town? Or maybe on the town? You couldn't have been working on such a great weekend as last.
Ah, such nonsense on that board...Straphangers Campaign...full of babies...eh...what can u do?
Hey they are allowed to wretch on their own board. The same as we blighter on this board or mucker on Other Side of the Tracks.
What would life be if we couldn't B-----I-----T-----C-----H-----,aye.
-Sparky
seen in simulated stops on the L:
8161-8164 running with 8165=8168 making simulated stops.
How many R143 are in service now on the L? I know at least two full trains.
As of yesterday AM,. 8101-8104 with 8105-8108 and 8109-8112 with 8113-8116 were running. I saw all 16 of these. I work a lunch on the L.
There is a weekend GO on the J for CBTC testing. I think there is a reserved set of 143's for this.
The two full trainsets mentioned (8101-8116) PLUS a 4-car trainset
(8117-8120) have been sighted on the property, the half-trainset is in ENY Yard
wayne
All of the links to this file seem to be broken or destroyed. If anybody has this BAHN file, BMT97.ZIP and can upload it please do and send to me at nfi857@aol.com
Thanks!
Try here:
BMT97.zip
It didnt work -- said that hotlink was missing.
Anyways, how can 150m.com be a valid domain name? I did click it, and it did come up, but I don't understand how a DNS server will figure out that 150 is not part of some IP address...
Thirdly, what is BMT97.zip????
Alicia
I had no problem. Stop being so friggin' contentious.
Peace,
ANDEE
Would you please forward it to me? I can't get it for some reason.
Anyways, how can 150m.com be a valid domain name? I did click it, and it did come up, but I don't understand how a DNS server will figure out that 150 is not part of some IP address...
What on earth are you talking about??
---------------------------------------------
Domain Name: 150M.COM
Registrant:
Free Webs Ltd.
5411 Maryland Ave
Tallahassee, FL 32312
US
Administrative Contact:
Master, Web webmaster@0catch.com
5411 Maryland Ave
Tallahassee, FL 32312
US
850-678-5556
Technical Contact:
Master, Web webmaster@0catch.com
5411 Maryland Ave
Tallahassee, FL 32312
US
850-678-5556
Billing Contact:
Master, Web webmaster@0catch.com
5411 Maryland Ave
Tallahassee, FL 32312
US
850-678-5556
Record last updated on 15-May-2002.
Record expires on 16-Jun-2003.
Record Created on 16-Jun-2000.
Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.0CATCH.COM 209.63.57.100
NS2.0CATCH.COM 209.63.57.101
I was asking a theoretical question. I did not question that 150m.com was a valid domain -- I did an nslookup and it said it was valid. I wanted to know HOW it can be valid and the name server doesn't confuse it with say part of an IP address. As far as I understand, any domain name must start with a letter. This is the reason why many dialup providers have IP names in the format:
pool-212-71-27-12.earthlink.net
rather than
212-71-27-12.earthlink.net
Because "212-71-27-12" could be confused for an IP address. The hostname "150m" have the same problem.
Alicia
The ".com" (or dot whatever) makes it a URL.
Addresses are read from the highest level (.com) and left to the lower levels, and then when the site is found the directory file strucutre (to the right of the / are located.
Elias
There is nothing saying that a domain name must start with a letter. The only rule that I know of is that a domain name can not start with or end in a dash. A domain many contain any combination of numbers, letters and the dash "-", but not more that one dash in a row.
[150m] is not a "host" name, but [150m.com] is a domain name.
In the address: www.bahnuk.150m.com
[www.bahnuk] is the host name (with a subhost) [150m]+[com] is the domain name + suffix (or extension)
The following are valid domain names:
555-1212.com
555-1212.net
555-1212.co.uk
555.info
www.555-1212.com would be a host name + a domain name.
[pool-212-71-27-12.earthlink.net] or [212-71-27-12.earthlink.net]
are both the same domain [earthlink.net] and [pool-212-71-27-12] is a host name. [212-71-27-12.earthlink.net] IS a valid internet address as long as earthlink.net has an entry for [212-71-27-12] in its DNS file.
No good for me-said "File not found"
I don't have it as a /ZIP file, as I unzipped it and it's in my BAHN directory. (I am running BAHN 3.59).
Will send you the .NT3 file as soon as I get outta here....
Thanks!!! Please do.
Several people expressed interest in the website where I read about the STCUM's fire training centre that was constructed in a section of unused tunnel that extends past the end of one of the lines:
http://www.emdx.org/rail/metro/EcolePompiers.html
If you put that into google.ca and use the "translate this page", the English translation is quite understandable once you realise that it puts the word "Oar" where it should put the word "Train". C'est la vie...
Enjoy!
-Robert King
Merci.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Merci.
the English translation is quite understandable once you realise that it puts the word "Oar" where it should put the word "Train"
I won't ask ...
Is there ANYONE at all that is working on a Long Island Railroad route for Microsoft Train Simulator? I do remember at one time seeing somebody on one of the MSN MSTS Communities who said he was planning the route out. *sighs* But I can't seem to find it.
Any help would really be appreciated. Thanks.
Stuart D. Guberman
I've *heard* rumors of one that was started for BVE ... haven't heard doowhadiddy since though. Penn to Hempstead if I remember correctly. From what I've heard from folks that went from BVE to MSTS and then came back, MSTS is too much of a pain to write for given the (ahem) "editor" for it ...
Yep....in other words: it SUUUUUUCKS :-D *moo*
Although, and successfully mind you, a few people HAVE made simulations of NYCT routes (I.E.: The Culver Line, The Sea Beach [for See Beech Fred ;) ], and the Times Square Shuttle) for EmSTeeS (MSTS)
Stuart D. Guberman
I saw one that was ... well ... nah, I be good. I returned MSTS to the store ... there's a NEW simulator in the works by the way called "Loksim3D" out of Germany ... I've looked at it and it's in its early stages but the ROUTE editor is built-in. They've got a ways to go with it yet, BVE's quality with some of the "oo-ah" that MSTS promised but never really delivered. Don't ask me for a link though - they took it down for now. When they think it's close enough to let people play with it, they'll put it back up and offer some downloads.
I still much prefer BVE though, especially the latest release with the "full cab" capabilities instead of the "windowed cab" of the earlier versions. Meanwhile MSTS still sorta lays there and smells funny, unimproved since the first release. The "X-box" of train sims. :)
<< a few people HAVE made simulations of NYCT routes (I.E.: The Culver Line, The Sea Beach [for See Beech Fred ;) ], and the Times Square Shuttle) for EmSTeeS (MSTS) >>
Any idea if they're available to the rest of us?
Yah.....uhm....the MSTS Transit Authority I think it is.....forgot the link. But goto communities.msn.com and search for it...it IS there. :)
Stuart
Microsoft should make a NYC Subway Simulator. That would rock.
of at least one route (400 miles are you nuts?)
"Microsoft should make a NYC Subway Simulator. That would rock."
Yeah, but it would break down at every third stop, and would not GO at all!
The closest thing that MSTS has to the NYC Subway is the Japanese Rapid Transit route. Every once in a while I actually relax by taking a diesel from Washington to Philly on the NE Corrider route. I know the route supposed to be the Acella but the diesels are more fun.
PS: I've tried to download BVE and never had any success doing it.
There is a track segment available of the CTA subway for MSTS. You can find it at http://www.train-sim.com/login.htm. You can also find MSTS files for the NYC subways at http://jcamacho.topcities.com/mstsdownloads.htm
Wouldnt it be nice if someone was able to make a BVE route for LIRR naming the Montauk Line from Penn Station to Montauk using a dual mode train made for BVE. I would do it but i dont work and i have to goto school and everything plus i have to get the track maps and get the objects and graphics and im not the best at programming. I wonder if any thought about making one for BVE.
I heard about a new line to the Pocono Mts, but where would this line bring commuters from out there to - Hoboken? That seems likely, but Penn Station is also possible.
sounds to me like a DL&W revival. Yes, Hoboken
Yup, thats the line.
Here are the links:
http://www.njtransit.com/an_capitalprojects_project019.shtm
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/nj11_frelinghuysen/lacka.html
http://www.pennjerseyrail.org/
Elias
Here's a map
Would service be operated by NJT all the way to Scranton? Also, how long would it take to get from Scranton to Hoboken?
"Would service be operated by NJT all the way to Scranton? Also, how long would it take to get from Scranton to Hoboken?"
Check out "Lacakwanna Cutoff" (quotes included) on Google, there are hundreds of pages to paw through.
Brobably would be, with an assist from PennDot.
Actually NewJersey is pushing harder for the routing than Pennsylvania is. They want to get all of those extra commuters of thier roads. Cheaper to run a train than to improve those roads yet again.
Elias
Any train through Broad Street Station in Newark can be sent either to Hoboken or NYC. Only the Main, Bergen County, Boonton (until next fall), and Pascack Valley Lines go only to Hoboken.
This train will run on the Boonton or (the Main?) or what ever they call that thing. It will not go through Newark.
My parents live along that line in Pennsylvania (Hi Pelham Dave).
Elias
The Main Line goes from Hoboken to Port Jervis, NY. The line is also known as the Main/Bergen Line and the Port Jervis Line.
This train will run on the Boonton or (the Main?) or what ever they call that thing. It will not go through Newark.
The NJT Main Line goes to Suffern, NY, and continues from there as the Port Jervis Line, which ends guess-where and never goes to PA.
As of this fall, the Boonton Line will be hooked into the Montclair Branch and will cease pax service along the old Boonton ROW east of Montclair. A single track will remain connected to the old ROW through a switch so that freight deliveries can continue on the Orange branch. The change over is now scheduled for September 30. From that date, Boonton Line trains will go through Broad Street Station in Newark.
I HATE changes, especially if I'm not the one making them!
Oh OK, I never lived in NJ, and rode that line (Boontown) only once. (Dover to Hoboken). The Lacakawnna Cutoff will run west of Dover (and Whatever) to Water Gap, East Stroudsburg, Pocono and Scranton.
Since my parents live in East Stroudsburg, I can't wait for them to get it in place. (The Round Trip Fare on the Bus is over $35.00!)
Elias
The Pocono rail service would probably take the M&E via Summit to Hoboken. It can't possibly happen until 2006.
Guys, I need some help from you.
I'm trying to brighten up my room a bit, and I've got a couple Hong Kong subway train model cars from my latest vacation. But when I look at it, a model of an R-143 or an R-142A would go so sweet
Can any of you recommend to me any sort of model store down in the New York area that sells these models? Stores with websites, accepts money orders and ships to Canada are pluses.
Thanks!
-J!
Try to get to the 2002 Model Trolley & Transit Show in Kendall Park, NJ, on June 1. You might find something there that suits your interests.
nycsybway.org upcomoing events
Can't. I'm on the other side of North America, and I'm pretty much still kinda broke after my trip to Asia. So local shopping is best. *sigh*
-J!
Well I confirned an awful suspicion today. All the US&S Pneumatic switch machines on the Market Subway and the Frankford El have been replaced with cheap, inferrior, electric GRS pieces of crap. Specifically I am referring to the A-5 machines at the scissors crossovers at 30th St., 15th St. and 5th St. and the A-10 machines on the Frankford section. To add insult to injury, the pneumatic trip arms on the home signal have been replaced w/ GRS electro-magnetic ones. Later this week I will verify if the Market El and both terminals have been simillary defaced. Sheesh, you think at the very least they could have used high quality US&S M3 electric machines. This leaves the Broad St. Subway, the Surface Subway and 2 PATCO interlockings as the only remaining pneumatic transit installations in the Philly area.
Do those new units break down a lot?
However, I do have to say that I probably won't have time to worry about it until SEPTA builds more subway lines, adds larger articulated cars to their trolley fleet, fixes their escalators, and cleans up its stations to a point where they don't look like dry sewers...
Mark
Well, yeah.
Pneumatics means maintaining an electric system, and also compressors, air lines, tanks, and valves, and such. Thus, by going to all electric machines, you elimanate all the pneumatic crap, which when you've got a spread out system means a lot of stuff to break in a lot of places.
When you've gota zillion switches in one spot, like Jamacia on the LIRR, it may make sense to go with the higher speed pneumatics. But, electric machines are probbably getting faster these days (though likely still a bit behind pneumatic), and it's a lot less junk to maintain.
Compressors are forever needing repair - they suck in junk, they get real hot, they need oil changes, filter changes, etc. Air tanks need daily drainings or they rust (and go *boom*), valves get screwed up by the inevitable dirt flowing in the system, whatever water didn't get dried out corrodes internal stuff, and temperature cycling causes movement causes seals to go causes leaks.
Well said - very pragmatic.
Due to pneumatic trip arms (which are much smaller and simpler than the electric counterparts) the MFL has an fully integrated and centralized compressed air system. As far as I have ever seen it has never experianced the type of problems that you attribute to pneumatic systems. Every signal train in america, ever big rig 18-wheeler and every school bus (to name a "few") has a compressed air system. If they were as bad as you make them out to be then electric brakes would be much more common.
AFAIK the Chicago L has no air brake; going back to the 6000's of the 1950's which were a conversion from all-electric Pcc streetcars and all new equipment since has followed suit, I believe. There may be others but these ar the only ones I know of; maybe some light rail too?
I bet the new one (a scissor setup, from what I see of its construction) at 40th Street (west of the platform) will also fall under this horrid fate. And, BTW, I question if SEPTA only intends to keep the interlock until the Market Street Elevated is completely fixed, or if they plan on making it permanent. The logical resoning for this is to turn trains back at 40th St. to avoid having to run shuttles all the way to 30th St. while they fix the elevated structure (something they should have done years ago, mind you).
Indeed, the new switching setups required weekend closures of the line to remove one, replace the equipment, then replace the switch. As a result, interlocks at the stations were non-existent for the week of their replacement. And (this may be a good thing to some folks), the crossover sound is drastically reduced. You can still tell the train ran over a switch, but it's not as blaringly loud as it once was. How cruel!
Something weird about the El in philly is that it uses a gauge around 60 inches.....do they use that wide gauge anywhere else in the country?
That's Pennsylvania broad gauge. SEPTA's streetcar system uses it, too, as does the one in Pittsburgh.
David
Doesn't WMATA use that same guage?
WMATA uses standard gauge
BART uses a 5' gauge
I don't know what gauge HOMER uses.
IIRC THE GAGE IS 5'2"OR 1/2 inch more. Broad St standard gage BTW
Strangly enough, SEPTA's gauge on city streetcars and Market is 5 feet, 2 1/4 inches, 1/4 inch narrower than Pennsylvania Broad gauge.
The Market Elevated was built by PRT with streetcar work equipment, thus the use of the streetcar gauge. When the Frankford Elevated was built in 1922, the streetcar guage was used as it connected and through routed with Market.
Broad Street was built by the City 1925-28 to BRT/BMT standards, thus it uses standard guage.
Out in the western suburbs, Red Arrow is 5' 2 1/2" but the P&W (Norristown) was built as an electricfied "Air Line to the standard guage.
Work equipment that shifts between the City Division and the Suburban (Red Arrow) Division has to be able to run on either guage.
Something weird about the El in philly is that it uses a gauge around 60 inches.....do they use that wide gauge anywhere else in the country?
It also uses an under-running third rail, which means the shoes slide along the bottom. Its strange seeing one side of the train with all its third rail shoes pointing up.
I was waiting at Astor Place for an uptown 6 when a train marked "Not In Service" on the head car passed on the uptown express track. The roll signs on the side were set for "10." (I don't recall the color.) Does this have any significance?
Also, a nearly empty train signed as a "6" passed on the local track and did not stop at all, surprising those 100 or so of us waiting for the uptown 6. What could this mean? Do strange things always happen at Astor Place? It was my first time at that station.
The "10" sign bullet is GREEN, as is the one for "8" and "12".
There's also a red "13" and a purple "11". These exist only in the R62/R62A cars. These numbers are reserved for future use. The only ones I see practical applications for are the "8" (replacing the Diamond 6) and "11" (replacing the Diamond 7). 10 might be a sub for the Diamond 5.
wayne
The only ones I see practical applications for are the "8" (replacing the Diamond 6) and "11" (replacing the Diamond 7). 10 might be a sub for the Diamond 5.
I don't think even those are particularly useful. The diamond versions of the same numbers suffice (but let's have crews remembering to change the signs a little better.)
:-) Andrew
A lot of time on the M, they leave them signed for 9th Avenue when it terminates at Bay Parkway, or signed as Bay Parkway and terminates at 9th Avenue.
no kidding go n train. i have to deal with that junk everyday. at 36th they tell us that 9th is the last stop when the rollsign clearly says Bay Parkway. Sometimes vice versa. This is why its nice that all future trains will have a digital rollsign that can easily be changed (maybe even from the command)
You mean like the digital signs that declare that the 2 is an express, even though it's been a local at all times since 9/19 and overnight since the first R-142 was delivered?
At least manual rollsigns can be set correctly. Poorly designed digital signs can't be.
They will start working right when they see redbirds being lifted out of water!
Poorly designed digital signs can't be.
Which is why a digital sign should have three separately adjustable elements:
- Route Designation (eg N, 7)
- Destination
- Local / Express Status
Okay, there should be defaults, but the should be overridable.
Agreed, for electronic signs that are set manually. For those incorporated into more expansive automated systems, the latter two points should be figured out automatically from the programmed stops.
it's about the same as the N trains having Kings Hway as the destination.
>> The diamond versions of the same numbers suffice (but let's have crews remembering to change the signs a little better.) <<
I just found it interesting that someone would go to the trouble of changing all those signs to "10." They look like manual signs (unlike the newer electronic ones that I presume can be changed by the push of a button).
If they were to pair the 5 with a new 10, you'd have Woolworth trains.:-) Or Kresgee trains.
LOL....THE 5&10 LINES....HAHAHAHA....
OK, now I'm going to hit the rim shot button.
Just as good as a "7" with an "11"!
wayne
For sure. They go together, don't they?
BTW, did you know that a 5-10 split in bowling is called a Woolworth while a 5-7 is called a Kresgee?
maybe because woolworth's was a five and dime or (5-10). im not sure. just a guess.
>> BTW, did you know that a 5-10 split in bowling is called a Woolworth while a 5-7 is called a Kresgee? <<
Harvey Pack always called a 5-10 daily double or exacta a "Woolworth."
The "10" train was the BMT Myrtle-Chambers route (now the "M" line) until 1967.
-- Ed Sachs
If memory is conforming, the only cars to ever be graced with the
BMT #10 Myrtle~Chambers were the multi's in the end of their service
life, when removed from the 14th Street line. The R's were always
the "M".
:-) Sparky
The R-16s also ran there when they still had their original number.
I stand corrected when such an unquestionable presentation.
:-) Sparky
should have read, "with such an undisputable presentation."
:-) Sparky
Wow, Satan wrote his name on the train. Even Satan needs to take the M Train once in a while.........
At least there's no 666 reference.
At least there's no 666 reference.
And what's scary is that it may have been possible. I believe the R16's numbers started in 6.............
The R-16s were: 6300~6499;
The R-17s were: 6500~6899.
Oh gawd, Branford could have gotten 6668 not 6688. Cherish the thought.
:-) Sparky
lol...
Heads up, gang! After 3 months of no deliveries, a delivery is in progress. At 00:20 hours, SBK locomotives N1 and N2 (and the standard TA diesel) were bringing up cars 6956-60 to the Barn at East 180th Street.
I love the Railfan (Apartment) Window!!! I must now take my ritalin.
-Stef
6956-60? Are they already on the option order for the Bombardier cars?
No. 6976-80 would be the last cars (numerically) from the primary order. No option orders yet. This is assuming of course, that they are the last cars to be actually delivered from the order. They may wind up being delivered soon!
-Stef
yea ...........................................................
cause' "U" ain't gon' get' one on a r-142 .........
( transverse cab ) .............ugh !!
Oh yeah? Then what's that in the middle of the door?
Your R142-bashing is really getting tired! Why don't you go and ride a London Underground train before you keep on bashing the R142s, Salaam?
Here's a train that really has "no railfan window"!
I rode at the railfan window on a 142 last summer, and found it adequate, and certainly better than the ones on the 68s.
It has an imbeded thingie in the glass so that you can see forward, but not what the crewperson is doing. Gives him/her some privacy.
Mutch better looking car than the Brit. (IMHO)
Elias
Chances are the "embedded" thingies in the glass weren't there so much for crew privacy as for keeping stray light out of the windshield. I didn't mind leaving the cab door open a bit and letting the kids peer in over my shoulder while operating (as long as they stayed quiet and didn't distract me while I was trying to figure out what that glimmer down the tunnel was) ... but when operating, you REALLY need the dark in the cab to spot people on the tracks, flags without lanterns, track condition and a raft of other things that light from the car can screw up on you.
While I'm sure there are some people who can drive at night and actually survive the trip with the dome light on in their car, chances are you prefer that the car be dark when driving at night. Same for a motorperson ... you can come up on stuff real fast and the farther down the track you can spot it, the better the chances are that you can react quickly and properly to ... whatever.
But that's why the window probably has that treatment, also the reason why if the cab ain't dark enough, you're going to hang something on the glass to keep the stray light from the car out of your cab.
Maybe that's why London (and other cities outside the US) hasn't had trains with railfan windows in the cab doors, at least going back to 1938, as shown below by this Tube train now running on the Isle of Wight.
Dunno for sure what their motivations were. But in the days of quarter cabs, you could close the door and have your darkness if you needed it and there wasn't any OPTO at the time necessitating getting to the other side. When you're outdoors on a run in daylight, it's not a problem at all but in a tunnel, you need the dark. A plate of glass into the car throws the light right into your face and really makes things difficult. In the summertime, you *HAD* to have the cab door open a crack just to get some air through the cab and visibility *WAS* affected by just what the clamp let in.
If there's light deflectors in the window assembly to throw the light somewhere out of your viewing space, then railfans could be accomodated. If so, that'd be nice as long as it doesn't ruin MY view when operating. Even when I worked for the TA, I couldn't imagine deadheading without that plate glass view so I knew where I was. And of course, riding a line you're about to pick was also a good reason to have a view even if you were with the show just to get to know the line. :)
London Underground's primariy motivation for the full width cab (which goes back all the way to the time they replaced the locomotives with multiple unit driving cars) was probably due to the small amount of space availible otherwise - especially on the tube cars.
I spent some quality time riding around the Northern line in the cab of a 1959 driving motor car which is basically the same as the 1938's cab, so I got to see the inside of them firsthand. If the cab was a compartment spanning from the side wall of the train to the edge of the door frame, the driver would be stuck inside an incredibly crampt broom closet trying to operate the train. Also, the full width cabs provide twice as much room for panels of fuses and circuit breakers on the back walls and the other controls that aren't directly involved with driving the train.
If you want to think about it this way, if a jail cell were the size of a tube train's cab, it would be considered cruel and unusual punishment to lock someone inside; anything smaller would qualify as torture.
-Robert King
Howdy! Well, I'm a throwback to the days of two cabs in every car (and you often had to go to the B end to throw breakers that weren't on YOUR end so you often got to visit both) and when I worked B division, I always found it astounding how folks could work the IRT where the cabs were even MORE "crampt" ... but it all came home the first time I did a cab ride in an Alco RS3 and later in SD40's, 60's and other "real" locomotives. Like a damned LIVING room with all the room to sprawl out and a toity in the nose.
I'd shudder to think of being locked for an hour and a half in a cab that's smaller than a redbird. Even Manhattan apartments have more room in the broom closet (unless there's a dropdown ironing board in there of course) ... =)
But London Underground (and other overseas transit systems) could at least provide a window in the inside cab door to allow passengers to see out the front of the train. That they haven't done. Since the driver sits off to the left on a London Underground train, wouldn't it be possible to put a window in the cab door without the problem of light reflecting off the glass in the cab?
Ah, yes, it's good to see that one again-that is Car 129 (ex LU 10229), and it's one of the ones Simon and I rode on last November. We were actually able to get a peek out the peephole and got no flak from the driver, since the IOW line runs at grade its entire length with the exception of about a half mile in the Ryde Tunnel.
Those 1938 Stock can really fly-southbound train got up to at least 60MPH. They sound like the R-6/7/9 cars complete with groaning gear sounds. We got a peek in the shoppe where we saw a 1938 Stock trainset under complete overhaul and painted in original "LU Redbird" livery. It was SO beautiful, we were nearly moved to tears at the sight of it.
wayne
wayne
When I rode at the front of a 142, (Passenger compartment, looking out the window) the mototman couldn't leave Pelham until the door was closed. It almost seemed that there was an interlock (or a rule) that prohibited that door from being open on the road. He did leave it open when we went around the City Hall Loop.
142s have event recorders do they not? Do they record the position of the crew door?
Elias
Yeah, it's a RULE ... you cannot have a transverse open in revenue service NOR can you have any "guests" in there. EVER, not even me. Only a TSS can override that and they generally don't.
T/O opened the door when I approached (GM had my car in for service) because he recognized the frequency of 'my jingling.' "Sorry about that," I said, "I'm OFF DUTY!" Didn't want an official observation. CI Peter
Yeah, you could definitely tell when an "insider" was "outsida" ... amusing though how folks with the show are only interested in the foamer glass when the train is slowing down in a spot where it shouldn't. Heh.
i rode on thge #6 in a ttransverse cab !!!
& with an operator back in the fall of 2000 ......!!!!
.........LOL BIG TIME .........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i rode on thge #6 in a transverse cab !!!
& with an operator back in the fall of 2000 ......!!!!
.........LOL BIG TIME .........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't count on it post 9/11 ... even the conductor's position is in lockdown these days. When we came down for Kissmoose, we had to talk to Uncle Dave on the PLATFORM after he left the train to fall back. And we were guests of the TA at the time.
Now it's either look through the double glass or run a train sim on the computer. That's pretty much the options now.
i rode on the #6 in a transverse cab !!!
& with an operator back in the fall of 2000 ......!!!!
.........LOL BIG TIME .........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
U still have 2 look thru 2 sets of windows .....!!!!!!!!!!
& thru the inside of the cab !!!
nice shotz but no dirtect center track view !!!
& when the operator gets tired of the overexcessive over bright
lights they paste up newspaper ................
& YOUR RAILFAN VIEW IS BLOCKED OUT & >>>>>>>>>>gone for good !
.......lol.!!!!!!
by the way i do noyt live in england ..........
>>>by the way i do noyt live in england .......... <<
Lucky them
no lucky """U"""... i did correct the ............
..("noyt") a typo mistake because of the big E .........!!
but dat' does sound like someone in london dosent it ??
he he he he he he he..........lol...!!!
Go redbirds!!!!!!!
That's an Unrefurbished 1973 Tube Stock, from the Piccadilly Line. The refurbished versions don't have it either; well, they DO have a railfan "peephole", and if the T/O catches you watching out of it, he'll open the cab door and give you a stern warning! Happened to me on the Baker Loo line; I was trying to watch the curve north of Regents Park.
wayne
then why not cut a hole for railfan's??
This just in:
Cars 6391-95 and 6401-05 are now testing for the 5.
Cars 6776-80, in service, coupled to 6771-75, 5/20/02.
-Stef
Is there anyone out there that can tell me the date that the last
Low-V cars operated on the Bowling Green Shuttle. Also, what were the car numbers on that day and what were the numbers of the pool of cars that were held specifically for the Bowling Green Shuttle.
I would appreciate any light that can be shed on this topic.
Thank you.
Was it possible to selectively open only the center doors on any of the Lo-Vs? I would imagine they used cars with manual vestibule doors and simply left them closed at South Ferry.
Yes ... that's why they remained in service for that purpose for so long. The center doors were a separate button until some (R12's?) were modified to do that trick also. The only openings on the inner loop were for center doors - end doors opened to wall and a drop.
Yes, four R-12s (5703-5706) were modified so that only their center doors would open at South Ferry. IIRC the door engines at the very ends of the cars were disabled so that at Bowling Green, the last leaf at each end would not open.
IIRC - The R12s had a single motor which operated one leaf of the center door and one leaf on the quarter-point door (the ones nearest each other), through a mechanical coupling. The outer leaf of each quarter-point door had its own motor. (I'm pretty sure this arrangement persisted on later models, such as the R26 and R30.) So, the modified cars had the leaf of the quarter point doors which co-operated with the center door disconnected from the mechanism so it never opened. Then, a separate button was put on the trigger box to operate the outer leaf of the quarter point doors, so these could be opened at Bowling Green but left closed at South Ferry.
-- Ed Sachs
Makes sense. Thanks.
According to Joe Cunningham's book "Interborough Fleet," Low-Vs ran on the Bowling Green - South Ferry shuttle until the mid-summer of 1964.
Thanks for the approximate time of conversion of Low-V to R-12 cars on the Bowling Green Shuttle.
Would you, per chance, know the car numbers of the Low-Vs assigned to the shuttle.
Thanks in advance.
Bklyn: July 23,1964 was supposed to be the last day for the Lo-V's on the Bowling Green Shuttle. Lo-VM's 5275 and 5483 protected the service on that day. They were replaced by R-17's 6516 and 6575. They covered the service from July 23 to August 1. R-14's 5815 and 5834 a put in a brief stint on August 1 but the Lo-V's returned from August 1 to 6 and then were permently retired. R-17's 6722 and 6828 covered the service from August 1 to September 6. At that time R-12's 5703 and 5706 began operating along with 5704 and 5705. These four R-12's became the regular equiptment up until the shuttle was discontinued on February 13,1977. The last train was composed of 5704 and 5705.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Thank you Larry,RedbirdR33 for all the information you sent pertaining to the Low-V cars on the Bowling Green Shuttle. It was both detailed and informative and I appreciate the time you spent researching the information.
Thanks again.
Bklyn: You're very welcome.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Did they do anything special to those R-17s? Or did they have TA personnel blocking off the end doors at South Ferry?
Steve: Regarding the use of the R-17's on the Bowling Green Shuttle I believe that some attempt was made to modify the door opening mechanism but it was not a success which is why the Lo-V's returned. I remember seeing them back on the shuttle after they were suppossed to have been retired.
I believe that it was someone in the TA car department who came up with a way to modify the door controls on the R-12's. At South Ferry only the two leafs of the center door would open. At Bowling Green the two leafs of the center door would open as well a single leaf of each of the outer doors on each car. (The one closest to the center door).
Best Wishes,
Larry, RedbirdR33
Everytime I visit here, I see 'New' next to messages that were posted while I was gone.
However, here's the annoying part. Whenever I view any message, whenever I go back to the index, the 'New' indicator disappears! IS there any way to fix this or does anyone else have ths problem?
When I use the "back" buttons to get back to the list, the new messages are still marked as new. If I follow a link to the list, then they are not marked as new.
Mark
Everytime I visit here, I see 'New' next to messages that were posted while I was gone.
However, here's the annoying part. Whenever I view any message, whenever I go back to the index, the 'New' indicator disappears! IS there any way to fix this or does anyone else have ths problem?
Before you start clicking on anything make sure that the index page has FULLY loaded, then you can start clicking. This should resolve the problem.
And like has been mentioned use the "back" button instead of the "return to index"
Right. If you click the link, return to the message index, your browser will typically ask for a reload of the index-- and when you do that, your cookie gets updated with a new timestamp and it thinks there's nothing "NEW" to show you. The link is there for useful navigation purposes but to preserve a page based on a cookie you're going to want to go BACK.
Yes, that works, you have to let the page fully load.
It also depends on how *your* browser is set up, how often it looks for a new page. My browser is set to check for new pages every time it goes to a site.
If you want to keep the NEW lables, use the back key after you post rather than the link back to the page at the bottom of the form. For then the only "new" posts would be the ones that were new since the last time you loaded the page.
But what is the worry?
Post that I have not read are blue.
Posts that I have read are brown-red.
'Cept that nin the power failure last night, all the links went back to blue, and I could not figgure out what I had read and what I hadn't read.
Oh Well.... such is life in a digital world.
Elias
'Cept that nin the power failure last night, all the links went back to blue, and I could not figgure out what I had read and what I hadn't read.
That'll teach you to forget to feed the field mice :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Naah, it's a browser thing. Netscape keeps it in the netscape.hst file under your Netscape user profile. Bill's Browser keeps its somwhere else, I forget exactly where. Both browsers are baseed on Mosaic, which had a size limit on the history file. Netscape tends to dump its around 2.5 meg, so everything goes bye-bye unless you bak it up once in a while.
Of course, his might have been writing to the hard disk exactly when the juice went out, so the file may have been trashed. When he reopened the browser restarted the file from scratch.
Ain't software fun!!!
"Of course, his might have been writing to the hard disk exactly when the juice went out, so the file may have been trashed. When he reopened the browser restarted the file from scratch."
Except that my computer is on a network, and the domain server *should* have kept the file in tact. It would have come up correctly had I logged onto a different computer first, instead it must have updated the server file rom my computer when I logged on again.
Elias
(HEY... What happened to the Signatures?)
>>>(HEY... What happened to the Signatures?) <<<
Their on "the other side of the tracks".
Peace,
ANDEE
There is an excellent 2-page photo in TIME magazine this week with a panoramic view of ground zero. It accompanies an article about the plans for the site. Clearly visible are remnants of the curving PATH station platform-lead trackage and also the now only partially-tracked west side IRT line. Tracks are missing in both places. You can see the steel i-beam cage of the 1/9 line for part of the route where it formerly passed beneath the WTC superblock. I wonder if this is new contsruction, or if the debris was merely removed surrounding the tunnel-cage.
You can see the steel i-beam cage of the 1/9 line for part of the route where it formerly passed beneath the WTC superblock. I wonder if this is new contsruction, or if the debris was merely removed surrounding the tunnel-cage.
New construction, I believe.
Yes. Tulley Construction is moving construction along briskly. They have a mandate to reopen West End IRT service in November.
I just hope there are no hidden "shortcuts" in the construction.
Actually it is ahead of schedule and I heard it may open as early as spetember or October.
I wonder if they are going to leave a stretch of it open-air until they finish rebuilding the Cortlandt Street station. Doing that would certainly save them some downtime.
wayne
Yeah, it wouldn't really matter. The only thing is though that when the time comes to cover it it, they will have to disrupt service. It's better to get it over with while service is out anyway.
Regardless, if it's open by the time I visit in October, we'll have to ride through there.
I doubt it. All you need is one heavy rain and the tracks will be covered in mud. Can you imagine if it snows?
>>>I wonder if they are going to leave a stretch of it open-air until they finish rebuilding ...<<<
Now THAT would be cool.
Peace,
andee
I just don't understand how the subway can be reconstructed when nobody knows yet what will be built over or around it. Suppose the route needs to be relocated to accomodate other construction or to facilitate the building of a new transit hub?
I just don't understand how the subway can be reconstructed when nobody knows yet what will be built over or around it. Suppose the route needs to be relocated to accomodate other construction or to facilitate the building of a new transit hub?
The original Greenwich Street line was built in the 1910's, and remained unchanged until September 11th. The entire WTC complex was built around it with it in place. Even Greenwich ST itself was abandoned during the WTC building, so I doubt they will have to relocate the subway to build whatever they will build.
Actually the Cortlandt St station will remain a shell until they decide what they will be doing with the whole WTC site and hub, but the line itself will remain. It is not being built as temporary like they will be building PATH.
There will be no shell, there will be nothing at all there, as if the train is supposed to bypass it.
The metal cage seems to me to be a temporary solution to weatherproof the line, it will be removed whenever a permanent tunnel is installed.
Construction of the proposed "people mover" between the World Financial Center and Broadway might in the future require lowering the 1/9 tracks, in order to keep the pedestrian passageway on one level, due to the slope of the land between Church and West Streets (a move which would also avoid ADA complications with the "people mover" plan). So the 1/9 tracks might reopen along their former pathway and then be relocated whenever they finally decide what will be built on the property.
Newsday ran the same photo in a special wrap-around section on Tuesday. If you go to there website, you can view that photo and others close-ups here:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-wtcphotos0519.photogallery
Jump ahead to the 14th photo.
The Time article is here: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020527-238628,00.html
A graphic of the proposed transit hub is here:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-g1tran0521.graphic
-- Kirk
Some of you might remember back at Christmas time when I described the pleasure of a visit to HeyPaul's house to see the fabled "R9 cab" ... while I was in there, I opened up the control stands to settle some old memories I had of them opening up in my lap while operating and scaring the crap out of me, not quite knowing how many "watts for tots" were inside.
Examining the control stands from the R9 though, I discovered MUCH to me pleasure and amusement that some easy wiring up inside them could result in the control stands being wired up so as to be able to be used with the BVE train simulator which in turn would allow a means of actually USING the control stands in conjunction with a computer and a TV screen to permit simulated OPERATION of a simulated subway train using the actual control stands! And YES, it would work.
Since the birds are being scrapped and there's little or no asbestos issues there, I'd be happy (in exchange for a set of stands to keep myself) to wire some up for museum use. In addition to space to mount the stands in a museum, all that would be required to put up a "You operate the train" exhibit would be a fast Windows box (550 MHz or faster) with a 3D gaming card, a good monitor (LCD would be ideal and the larger the better) and the free BVE train simulator software. There's dozens of routes already out there and visitors to such an exhibit would be allowed to choose the line they'd want to operate and use the rewired actual stands to operate the train in a simulation.
Given what museum exhibits can cost, this'd be a CHEAPIE and a real crowd pleaser too, especially if the museum were to set up a row of them like urinals for the visiting public to play with. And I'd be happy to build the mods for the stands so that they'd just plug into a joystick port on the computer with no fancy electronics (entirely passive circuitry for this) and no upkeep other than that for a normal computer.
All I'd want out of it is a pair of stands for myself and of course the appropriate wrenches for the pair. While those stands are still somewhat available, there's no time like now to consider this before they become as rare as an R9 stand.
this really oughta be done. I can't imagine a better, more crowd pleasing item to have at the museum. (well, a 10 car redbird might be nice for actual trips...)
Museums *LOVE* "hands on" exhibits ... in all seriousness, I could make it happen for anyone interested but time is running thin and the one thing I can't put together is REAL control stands. If a number of them can be saved NOW before they're all gone, then a number of transit museums from the NYCTA one to IRM could put a nifty crowd pleaser on display. Of course, all I want is a pair for my own amusement but I'd be happy to lash up as many as any museums would want for their own purposes - all they'd need to provide is cab scenery, a computer and something to display the tracks on.
It'd be a natural though and save the collection from ham-handed wannabes. :)
Come to one of the East Penn Traction Club shows or another venue where the infamous "Port-A-Pike II" is on display. This is a small HO scale layout where you can operate a trolley car using a real streetcar controller. And yes, like all EPTC exhibits, it runs from the wire.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cool! Wish I could make one of those ... don't mind me, I'm trying to collect a pair of stands for personal use and am willing to sing for my supper. Heh.
I have a Dash 2 EMD stand that I am going to hook up to an HO layout. Subway stands, however are TUFF to find (I'd love one for my MTH R42s)
Heh. There's two in most redbirds headed out to sea. And it's not like those cabinets are going to do much for marine life or holding back the sand. Just a matter of someone willing to pluck them. :)
Contact Gabrielle Shubert (head honcho) at the NYTM .... I'd bet there'd be real interest in this when it reopens next year. There's such an exhibit at the London Underground Museum in Covent Garden, London. (Well, there WAS one last time I was there ...)
--Mark
I'd be interested in a control stand set for my O scale layout, since real trolley stands are kinda hard to come by (PCC setups would be pretty easy. I can imagine using the three pedal car game setups.)
Let me know how we can make this happen especially for the museums.
Actually all it would take for me to be able to do it is for the museums in question who might be interested to contact "car equipment" and see about salvaging a few sets of stands (plus one for me to keep for my own purposes in tearing down to figure out how to wire it up for a computer JOYSTIC PORT) and then get me one set to tear down and keep once it's designed. I'd be happy to wire up the remainder as time permits or provide schematics so museum tekkies can do it if they want. Then it's a simple matter for the museums to provide a computer with 3D game card and some sort of display for the BVE simulator, plug in what I've designed or built and mount it in a suitable display for the public to step up and play with.
Not much of a challenge though if someone can get the stands before they go swimming. :)
I have fingernail dirt, blown J14D valves, worn out brake shoes, scrapped wheels, cracked D4 compressor housings, rusted apart headlight housings, split brake hoses (left and right hand,) cracked windows and other objects of joy available. I thought I was a hero to my crew today...identified a scrapped wheel to trash the pair...and my undercar partner had a cracked gearbox housing void of oil. Pair wasn't scrapped...sent to East 180th for major repair. A museum needs REAL STUFF that the public can recognize. CI Peter
Heh. I'll take some pressure gauges then and a length of 1/4 tubing with flanges along with the stands. Hell - if it can be authorized by someone official, it's only four damned screws per box. :)
Sorry, make that half inch tubing. Brain cramp. :)
Thank ya! I believe someone else has already made the contact and pointed to subtalk for the details. I'll be happy to figure out how to wire it up for them if there's an actual pair yanked from service for me to "ring out" with a meter ...
I wonder if anyone will do this.
There is interest from *ONE* museum but until I've had a chance to talk with the person who wanted me to get in contact with them, I'll keep it quiet for now. But so far, ONE is interested in discussing it and seeing what we can do.
Now that the work on this station is finally complete, I've noticed a couple of things that should have been done differently:
1. It's great that some of the original mosaic signs were restored, but there aren't enough of them. There should be more signs in the gaps, even if these are the standard black and white metal ones.
2. Those concrete and tile benches with the strange notches in the walls look weird and must be uncomfortable. They look like someone's design experiments that should have been left on the drawing boards (or CAD monitor). There aren't enough of them either.
The benches are most certainly "art".
Can you describe more of the rehab? How does the interchange with the 4 look now? If I recall correctly, the station complex was to be made ADA-compliant. Is that complete, both for the IRT and IND station sides?
I use that station from time to time. I know there is an elevator to the 4 platform, I dont' recall seeing the one to the D platform, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
There are elevators to the D platform. But, they are not operational at this time.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks.
elevators to the 4 platforms and to the street are also present and also not yhet in service. The station complex will have a total of 5 elevators.
4 train---------- 2 elevators
street to mezz--- 1 eleavtor
D train --------- 2 elevators
for the record elevators are also under construction at:
14/8th--ALL plats and street, 34 IND-all plats and lower mezz, 34 IRT to lower mezz Local plats, Flushing on the J to all plats and street.
So I guess the 4 elevators will bypass the street level and go to the IRT/IND platforms. How is the elevator arrangement/design at this station?
# 1- N/B IRT to IND mezz
# 2- S/B IRT to IND mezz
# 3- N/B IND to Plat
# 4- S/B IND to Plat
# 5- IND mEzz to Street
14 and 8th:
# 1- N/B IND plat
# 2- S/B IND Plat
# 3- Mezz to L plat
# 4- Mezz to Street.
Note- My numbering may not be the official number of a particular elevator but simply identify different elevators.
Prospect Park (Brighton Line), too.
--Mark
Right! The layout there is two elevators- one to each platform. The mezzanien is at street level.
more elevators under construction:
Times Square BMT- two elevators from platform to Mezzanine. (full ADA to the entire complex is planned including IRT and 7 line.)
Just started- West 4th-- three elevators: one from SOuth Mezzanien to Street and one to each platform (these have three "floors"- 8th ave plat, lower mezz and 6th av plat.)
I dont know if construction has started but Euclid on THE A will have 3- one to each plat and one to the street.
I think it would be a shame to add plain black and white metal signs in between. That's a regress back to the thinking of the 70's, when they just threw up signs anywhere. I'm not familiar with the station, but did they cover up every other mosaic name tablet when the y did the rehab? As for benches, alot of stations don't even have benches, so even if there is one, it is better than none.
Anyone got any photos to post so we can see what the station looks like now. I haven't been there in years.
I would say about half the mosaics survived, although not in a particular pattern. About five years ago the big blue metal signs (from the 1976 reopening of Yankee Stadium, I think) were taken down and all the mosaics were there. Then various work was down moving stairs and utilities, but it still seemed that more of the old signs were covered than necessary.
The only reason that I suggested some new metal signs is that there are long stretches were it is impossible to identify the station name.
The only reason that I suggested some new metal signs is that there are long stretches were it is impossible to identify the station name.
They should have reproduced some, like they did at other stations if the originals were that bad. I didn't realize they left so many gaps.
I still wonder why they won't strip the paint off of the mosaic on the #4 platforms.
Those concrete and tile benches with the strange notches in the walls look weird and must be uncomfortable. They look like someone's design experiments that should have been left on the drawing boards (or CAD monitor). There aren't enough of them either.
I don't know if you intended it or not, but the irony in that statement made me laugh. Like the joke about the two ladies in the restraunt. The first one says "The food here is so lousy!", then the second one says "and such small portions!"
:-) Andrew
I have heard that joke, although I hadn't intended the irony when I wrote the message.
Actually, the whole subway system could use more benches - preferably comfortable ones.
I have heard that the 7th turboliner is back in service on the Empire Corridor, what times is it running? Also when will the new refurbished Turbos enter service on the Empire?
As promised, Here it is Boys and Girls:
GENERAL ORDER #3709-02P
Equipment:
3 Units 6095abc, 6019abc and 6112abc
The Excursion Train will operate as follows:
1. Leave Coney Island Yard @ 0900 hours and proceed light to Whitehall St., Track B3/4
2. Guests wiil be admitted to the excursion train through the fare control areas at Whitehall, Brighton Beach and Rockaway Pkwy.
3. At 1030, the excursion train will proceed, with guests, to Prospect Park (Brighton line) and relay south of Prospect Park.
4. The excursion train will enter the Franklin Shuttle tracks and make 2 round trips, returning to Prospect Park.
5. The excursion train will proceed south via track A3 to Kings Highway, the track A1 to north of Brighton Beach.
6. The excursion train will make a lunch stop at Brighton Beach, utilizing track A3
7. After the lunch stop has been completed, the excursion train will proceed via the "J" and "L" lines to Rockaway Pkwy.
8. The excursion train will proceed via the "J" and "L" lines to Rockaway Pkwy. A 15 minute rest stop will be made at Rockaway Pkwy.
9. The excursion train will relay in Canarsie Yard.
10.Upon completion of the rest stop, the excursion train will return to Rockaway Pkwy.
11.The excursion train will proceed to East New York yard and change ends.
12.The excursion train will proceed north via the "J" line to 111 St. and relay.
13.The excursion train will proceed south via the "J" line to the Nassau cut, then via the "N" line to 36th St./4th Ave. where guests will detrain. C.E.R.A. guests will remain on board.
14.The excursion train will return to Coney Island Yard and lay-up on track 31 where C.E.R.A. guest will detrain.
Peace,
ANDEE
As promised, Here it is Boys and Girls:
GENERAL ORDER #3709-02P
Equipment:
3 Units 6095abc, 6019abc and 6112abc
The Excursion Train will operate as follows:
1. Leave Coney Island Yard @ 0900 hours and proceed light to Whitehall St., Track B3/4
2. Guests wiil be admitted to the excursion train through the fare control areas at Whitehall, Brighton Beach and Rockaway Pkwy.
3. At 1030, the excursion train will proceed, with guests, to Prospect Park (Brighton line) and relay south of Prospect Park.
4. The excursion train will enter the Franklin Shuttle tracks and make 2 round trips, returning to Prospect Park.
5. The excursion train will proceed south via track A3 to Kings Highway, the track A1 to north of Brighton Beach.
6. The excursion train will make a lunch stop at Brighton Beach, utilizing track A3
7. After the lunch stop has been completed, the excursion train will proceed via the "J" and "L" lines to Rockaway Pkwy.
8. The excursion train will proceed via the "J" and "L" lines to Rockaway Pkwy. A 15 minute rest stop will be made at Rockaway Pkwy.
9. The excursion train will relay in Canarsie Yard.
10.Upon completion of the rest stop, the excursion train will return to Rockaway Pkwy.
11.The excursion train will proceed to East New York yard and change ends.
12.The excursion train will proceed north via the "J" line to 111 St. and relay.
13.The excursion train will proceed south via the "J" line to the Nassau cut, then via the "N" line to 36th St./4th Ave. where guests will detrain. C.E.R.A. guests will remain on board.
14.The excursion train will return to Coney Island Yard and lay-up on track 31 where C.E.R.A. guest will detrain.
Peace,
ANDEE
As promised, Here it is Boys and Girls:
GENERAL ORDER #3709-02P
Equipment:
3 Units 6095abc, 6019abc and 6112abc
The Excursion Train will operate as follows:
1. Leave Coney Island Yard @ 0900 hours and proceed light to Whitehall St., Track B3/4
2. Guests wiil be admitted to the excursion train through the fare control areas at Whitehall, Brighton Beach and Rockaway Pkwy.
3. At 1030, the excursion train will proceed, with guests, to Prospect Park (Brighton line) and relay south of Prospect Park.
4. The excursion train will enter the Franklin Shuttle tracks and make 2 round trips, returning to Prospect Park.
5. The excursion train will proceed south via track A3 to Kings Highway, the track A1 to north of Brighton Beach.
6. The excursion train will make a lunch stop at Brighton Beach, utilizing track A3
7. After the lunch stop has been completed, the excursion train will proceed via the "J" and "L" lines to Rockaway Pkwy.
8. The excursion train will proceed via the "J" and "L" lines to Rockaway Pkwy. A 15 minute rest stop will be made at Rockaway Pkwy.
9. The excursion train will relay in Canarsie Yard.
10.Upon completion of the rest stop, the excursion train will return to Rockaway Pkwy.
11.The excursion train will proceed to East New York yard and change ends.
12.The excursion train will proceed north via the "J" line to 111 St. and relay.
13.The excursion train will proceed south via the "J" line to the Nassau cut, then via the "N" line to 36th St./4th Ave. where guests will detrain. C.E.R.A. guests will remain on board.
14.The excursion train will return to Coney Island Yard and lay-up on track 31 where C.E.R.A. guest will detrain.
Peace,
ANDEE
oh no only 3 units ??
why not at least 6 .....????
where did you get this info from.... just thought i would ask...
......lol..!!
6 "units" would be a bit too long for any platform in the system. I forget the exact length of the 3 sections, but they add up to somewhere in the neighborhood of about 150-160 feet per "unit" (A-B-C cars in a unit) ...
One A-B-C Triplex unit is 137 feet long. Typically they would run in trains of four units, so platforming would be no problem for the three surviving museum units. Taking it a step further, one Triplex was the equivalent of two BMT standards
Don't forget to point out that you mean two single Standard A cars, and not two Standard B car sets!
Yes, I meant two single A unit BMT standards. Or one BT unit.
Since only 3 survive, This is all you are going to get...ever.
-Mark
I think that Salaam forgot for a minute that there were three units for each number instead of just one.
And we must do everything possible to make certain that those three units of the Triplex survive. I would be ticked off to see those trains disappear forever.
they are in set of 3 right ??
with the trucks in between the cars ....
we are discussing d types right ??
D type... 3 sets of 3 sections each.
3 Cars/4 Trucks per set hence 9 total cars/12 trucks
now see when i make a mistake ........i admit it !!!
( unlike some folks ) .........!!
dats' right i forgot the D types R "3" married pairs together !!
( oh well )
i did hear they "R" the most heavy subway cars ever !!
wonder if they were as heavy a the philly broad line 1932 units ???
hmmmmmmmmm..........??
.......dats' right !!
my mistake !! by the way do U still have that #7 pic with a
pre r12 pic on it ? i thhink near 111th st !!
thankz for you nice site !
salaamallah SEE "U" all dere this late july -august ..!!
Does a person need to have bought the ticket (if one is necessary) in advance? Can I just show up at Whitehall and go along? If so, at what time and what day is it? BTW, what's C.E.R.A?
Central Electric Railfans' Association
Based in the MidWest out of Chicago. Not connected with the national ERA. They do for the Chicago area what the NY Division does for the NY area.
The fantrip notice says that day-of-trip tickets will be available at $5 above the regular price, which means $40 for adults and $25 for children under 13.
David
Hmmm, quite expensive... thank you.
Oh boy oh boy oh boy I'm a CERA guest oh boy oh boy oh boy!!!!
Andee, thanks for posting. See you this weekend.
--Mark
You won't see me...to many damn foamers. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>1. Leave Coney Island Yard @ 0900 hours and proceed light to Whitehall St., Track B3/4
What line will it take from Coney Island Yard to Whitehall Street?
>2. Guests wiil be admitted to the excursion train through the fare control areas at Whitehall, Brighton Beach and Rockaway Pkwy.
How will it get between these three stations?
Also, why did you post this three times?
- Lyle Goldman
CERA gets a tour of the Ave X shops?
I hope Fred doesn't get too upset when he reads this....
Fred is just a little upset but I'll get over it. Bill Wall told me that the Triplex would carry the #4 and go over the Sea Beach line. I guess there was a change, but getting to ride a Triplex with a bunch of railfan fanatics like me will more than compensate for any disappointment I may have. But I will be wearing my #4 Sea Beach Fred shirt and cap on the journey and that might be more than enough compensation.
Come October I will have my A shirt to go along with my Mets jacket and cap.
QUESTION: AFter item 6 it says we will go to Rockaway Parkway via the J and L lines. That means we will be using the tunnel. How are we getting to the tunnel- West End, Sea Beach or Brighton.
Montegue
Right, ***but** to get to the montague Tunnel will we use Brighton, West End ir Sea Beach to DeKalb.
How do you get on? And where do you get a ticket before so you don't have to pay $5 more?
>>How do you get on? And where do you get a ticket before so you don't have to pay $5 more?<<
BML, If you haven't received a ticket by mail, you'll have to buy one on the day of the trip for $5.00 extra. This was advertised on those handbills. The Special leaves the BMT Whitehall St. (N)(R) station at 10:30AM on Monday, May 27th.
Bill "Newkirk"
If this is a duplicate message I apologize. I'd like to know the date and car numbers of the last Low-V Bowling Green Shutte. Also, were there special Low-V cars designated for the shuttle and if so what were their numbers.
Thanks alot.
I started using the S.Ferry Shuttle during the mid to late 60's and I don't ever recall Low-V's on it. So I guess it was the early 60's.
The only modifications done to the Low-V's were to the doors, If I'm not mistaken only the middle door opened, not the 2 end doors.
Will any other High Speed Trains Be in the US anytime soon besides NEC's Acela?
125 mph service is supposed to be on the menu for Albany-NYC.
> 125 mph service is supposed to be on the menu for Albany-NYC.
Really? When will this be built? And will the line have to be electrified?
- Lyle Goldman
Well unless CSX gives in and opts for the HS upgrade---read: track replacement and catenary placement, there won't be a HS passenger service to Albany from NYC via Amtrak. And with the way the NYS Government has snubbed CSX over railroad taxes, they won't ever do it.
Sadly.
Stuart
Diesal high speed? The TGV did have a prototype diesal hish speed train based on todays TGV. But in the end the idea was discontinued due to enviromental concerns.
No...maybe a modified E-60C or AEM-7 service.
Stuart.
I thought the plan was to rebuild the Turbo trains and use them,
http://www.midwesthsr.org/
-- Ed Sachs
There is talk of building a Maglev between DC and Baltimore, but I don't see it happening.
I don't think that's happening because there already have the Acela in the NEC.
It depends on a few factors. If Washington/Baltimore gets the 2012 Olympic bid, I imagine we get the Maglev. Amtrak has nothing to do with it.
I'd rather see infrastructure upgrades to the NEC than some sort of maglev boondoggle. At least we could ride Acela without erasing the magnetic stripes on all our credit cards!
-- David
Chicago, IL
That gives me an idea! You could use the magnetic fields of the maglev for high speed mobile magnetic resonance imaging! You could rail fan and have diagnostic medical tests done at the same time!
:)
Mark
Also earings will rip out of your ears and fly to the magnets. But on a serious side steel rails go out at 240 mph, maglev can go upto 315 mph (Las vegas to california project) which is competion to airlines and can take a realistic amputation of Airlines. Maybe more if I have it tweaked (450 mph under my watch!).
Actually, the French TGV trains have been tested up to 320 MPH. Read about it here. No need for an entire new infrastructure when existing tracks can be upgraded. MagLev technology may have some merits, but the vast expense and technical problems it involves don't really offer enough advantages over traditional high-speed rail to be viable.
-- David
Chicago, IL
First off, is the NEC, especially Acela, even considered High Speed Rail? I mean TGVs, AVEs, and ICEs are zipping past the speed that the Acela maxes out at EVERYDAY. The Acela only gains ten miles an hour on most track, in regular service, on an AEM-7 pulled train, and the German diesel ICE-VT can is designed for 125 mile an hour running, a friggin DMU will come real close to surpassing Amtrak's Crown Jewel. In the meantime, the ICE3 can do 205 miles an hour in service, while the TGV averages 186, and gets up to 320 in testing (IIRC).
We are quite literally being left behind. I really see Maglev as the only way out. When you look at the efficiency of the Halbach Array, as compared to the efficency of normal two rail operation, and the complexity of the superconducting maglev, it really is the method that makes the most sense. A unique track for the Acela to use is simply wrong, since that only gets us to where the Europeans were back in the early eighties. We need to jump ahead, and maglev is the perfect way to do that, everybody will need to build or convert new ROW, and as such, all countries are equal, nearly, all of them lack any system for the new trains, and right now, nearly anyone can make the first move, and take the lead. A line from Washington to Baltimore would be great, since it was that area that was the crib for rail travel in the US, perhaps it could also lead the way in Maglev.
Yeah it has problems, but all new technology, and no, it won't give you cancer, in fact, maybe it would be like those magnets doctors keep prescribing.
Some articles:
http://popularmechanics.com/science/research/1998/5/permanent_magnets/index.phtml
Funny becuase it shows a Acela retrofitted as a Maglev, that we don't need.
http://www.skytran.net/press/sciam02.htm
lots of explanation
http://www.matchrockets.com/ether/halbach.html
more on the Halbach array
Well thanks. sorry for the rambling
Announced Friday: "Federal Railroad Administrator Allan Rutter today announced a $3,000,000 grant to the Florida High-Speed Rail Authority for the preparation of studies required to develop an environmental impact statement and competitive procurement statements..."
U.S. DOT announcement
That don't mean anything. Look at SAS. By the time the study is done you have to do it again because laws changed.
It's been several monts and I've picked up a web tv outfit so can correspond once again. To say the least reading the threads I'm very much in the outfield for now.Strange reading about equipment that's as old now as the beloved prewar relics I knew in my youth. In the time since I was on the web last fall {september was it] I've dedicated my rail interest time to building some transit cars for my S gage fleet which is something I havent done for some time.First were my redbird memorial, R29's 8622-23 which I added to my xisting 7 cars from R14 thru R26 [painted the pre-MTA mix bag colors]; then 7 R1-9 trypes, my first "big" cars for my el line [279, 455 is powered,726,1285, l373,l547,l734] Each number has a significance.Run 6 at a time. Now I'm adding 3 Low-V's [4814,4577. and 5606] and one Manattan el MUDC [1198]. So I'll have the capacity to run some train sets full length weekday service if I wish. Now I've run out of the 3rd rail shoes I was using for IRT and IND cars and I don't think anyone makes them anymore. They were HO size, R1-9 shoe beams, last made by NH Custom Parts i PA. I do have a surplus of Chicago el shoes which like like Manhattan el ones somewhat.Anyone out there wih some for sale, or Flyer link coupler trucks; any trading possible? Anyone with some S gage Chi 6000's? I bought one and could find no mre..Would part with it as one is useless to me. Anyway glad to be back and hope I'll have something to contribute i the future, from the days of dinosaurs mostly! Best regards...Ed Davis, Sr.
ED! WELCOME BACK!
I'm really really happy to see you again! Sorry I can't help with what you need but man am I *glad* to see you again!
Ed Welcome back! We have much catching up to do!
Yeah, I ditto that, welcome back Ed. Hope all is well. I calling Brother Timothy right now. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Hi Ed!
Great to hear from you again...
Marc
BIG ED! You are just the man we were looking for!
Now please tell us what these signs mean:
R1-9 R10 Momentary OFF
Thanks, Elias
So far, the best argument I've heard was the heater switch. I sure hope it means something to Uncle Ed ... I would have ignored it and asked my TMO what the Hades that was all about. :)
I think Bro. kevin {Selkirk]is right; the momene
tary switch for heat and fans[ but I'd guess it meant heat only} By the locations I know it couldn't mean lights!Believe it or not I never saw such a sign.Seeing AA and B (had to be after the Chrystie Merger as the B was then created from BB short line and extended) I was a motorman by then. When I was a conductor we went by the directions of the Board at the terminal for windows, vents, fans, or heat, and how much heat. Traimaster Callahan rode with me often from Jay St. to 205-D line and caught me for heat unauthorized once but I didn't put it on; just hadn't paid attetion,, the M/M could use the mometary too. All he did was gripe.No reports.[I did turn off the heat]. Later!
Callahan! I *KNEW* him! Yeah, he was a pither ... heh. What gets me though is I don't remember that at ALL ... and I never saw any of those signs myself since they weren't on the D line anywhere I knew of. That's what threw me so I didn't have the answer. And generally, *I* was responsible for all of that stuff, not the conductor.
The railroad made a whole lot more sense when you'd get your chops busted rather than written up. I feel bad for the folks in the cabs these days. Kwalitee circles I suspect. :)
So you knew old Chris Callahan! Indeed, a good old style railroad man, could be sure he'd put in a plus for you when deserved as soon as chew you out when deserved.Sadly this doesn't seeem to be a way of life anymore. Seemed MRL management toward the end always figured for the good that you were just doing your job [and woe to you when you were at fault or could have done a lot better].The big RR's are'tany prize either. Compared to what we knew it isn't a very kind world. BTW Chris once said regarding car equipment that they should have stuck with the R9's. Right on.
Heh. Yeah, he and I got along BECAUSE of my fondness for the old girls. I'd have to ask him if I could change order and take the same train back out when the pockets and platform were filled with 32's all around me when I got up to my home end mid R/T (you know how things were upstairs back then - I lived at 205th and reported to Stillwell for a split shift RT home and back) ... he and I got along because I was always interested in stories and tricks of the mighty arnines and he was a mused that a kid would actually LISTEN to him and loved the old cars more than the 32's. Plus he had a lot of Aholes to deal with himself. I didn't piss him off. Heh.
Thanks for whizzing on the mystery of the "momentary" ... never saw one of those signs in my entire career. And of COURSE you didn't need those signs to tell you when it was getting warm inside an Arnine. :)
Small world, ain't it?:-)
Bi GE Dirtman L,
Welcome back, Big Ed!!
"Bi GE Dirtman L, "
Hehehehe....
Being dyslexic I can't tell you what I *thought* it said.
Try BigEd IRT L , not that the (L) ever ran on the IRT, but , what the L
Elias
Oh sure, guys ... drive him away why dontcha. Heh. Wait until we find out what the "momentary switch" thing was all about first, eh? :)
>>> Try BigEd IRT L , not that the (L) ever ran on the IRT, but , what the L <<<
You forgot something very important. It is Big Ed IRT Man L. When read that way you recognize that an "L" did indeed run in Manhattan.
Welcome back Ed!
Tom
Yup.... but his "L" is an L (as in a Chicago L) rather than (L) as in something headed out to Canarsie.
So anyway, Big Ed, give us the scoop on those signs!
Elias
Ed has told me many times that the L in his handle is for the Chicago L. He has grown very fond of Chicago's system in his visits since he moved west 25 years ago.
Yes! In 3 posts the riddle has been solved! The IRT Man with MAN doubling for Manhattan el. El spelled Chicago style to honor the CTA "L". Actually my Chicago interests go back to 1961 when the great 4000"s heavyweights were still around big time and the high speed North Shore ran over The L. Thanks Elias, Old Tom, and Karl. These are my 3 main intersts the old IRT as I knew it, the Manhattan el, and Chicago L. Favorite steam roads? NYCentral and Pennsy. THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR WELCOME.
Elias,
You have a dirty mind!! (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)
Stole my line, Chuchubob!
Ed .. welcome back! Try posting over on Joe Frank's board regarding your question of modeling equipment ... someone there oughtta know.
Unca Joe ... see, I'm drumming up new business :)
--Mark
Ed, just to let you know, since you last posted last year I bought and read your book. I must say I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Time to cue up the Welcome Back Kotter theme again.:-)
Good to have you back. We've missed you.
Welcome back Ed.
i like it !!
NY1 reports that due to a track fire at 42nd ALL F/V trains are being rerouted to 8th ave. Don't know about B/Ds. Film at 11.
Peace,
ANDE
Oh great! That's my commute! No choice about it, either--I'm parked at 179th. I'm gonna have to take the R to Roosevelt or something.
:-( Andrew
I should have an update in about 8 minutes
Thank you.
:-) Andrew
its back
Thanks again.
:-) Andrew
Those switches south of W. 4th are a godsend at a time like this.
NY1 reports the situation is thus:
All service is back to "normal"....
Peace,
ANDEE
That was fast!
- Lyle Goldman
That's a good reason I take the Express Bus when I go to Midtown by myself.
I wish they would fix up Nostrand Ave. Station to a more High Tech Station like Canal St.
Nostrand Avenue-Fulton Street station rehabilitation is not in the approved MTA 2000-2004 Capital Program.
David
It didn't appear to be in bad shape when ChicagoMotorman & I went through it yesterday .....
--Mark
On my way home today I saw N/B 7621-7622-7623-7624-7625-7631-7632-7633-7634-7635 S/B going uptown on the 6 in service. Keep em coming!!
Eh?
You're right! I had the opportunity to ride Cars 7636-40 and 7646-50 this evening.
It should be declared on the Delivery Page that Cars 7621-25 and 7631-35, as well as Cars 7636-40 and 7646-50 are in service as of 5/23/02.
There is only ONE train set left to enter service on the 6, which will be made up of Cars 7626-30 and 7641-45. Cars 7651 and up, will make #4 service. Cars 7656-60 were reported to be at the East.
-Stef
I believe 7651-55 is there as well. But 7656-60 is at Unionport hooked up to 7631-35.
They must have re-coupled em, I wrote down on my hand the numbers I saw.
What is the Speed for the Acela Regional and the Metroliner in the 8 miles of straight Track in Rhode Island and the 10 miles of Straight Track in Boston? I know the Acela Express goes 150 mph but what about the other Trains?
The Metroliner doesn't go north of New York.
The maximum speed for a conventional train between New Haven and Boston is 110 MPH. Source: Washington Post, November, 2000
I think Amtrak has allowed Acela Regional Trains running at 125 mph max.
Chaohwa
Note the date of my source, it is about 1.5 years old. It may have changed by now.
Here is a list of the high speed areas:
A= Acela Express with tilt active
B= Acela Express with tilt system not active or trains consisting exclusively of HHP8, AEM-7 or F40PH and Amfleet cars.
MP86 - 94 A=125mph B= 100mph
MP 155 - 162 A=135mph B=125mph
MP 162 - 170 A=150mph B=150mph yes 150mph
MP 170 - 181.9 A=135mph B= 125mph
MP 190.5 - 195 A=135mph B= 125mph
MP 195 - 205 A=150 mph B=150 mph yes 150mph
MP 205 - Transfer A= 135mph B=120mph
Transfer - MP 226 A= 120mph B=110 mph
Trains carrying mail, baggage or express cars cannot operate over 110mph through the 150mph area and the average speed limit for those trains are 75mph.
Is it me, or are there not enough 2 trains running these days? I work down on Broadway right off the Bleecker Street stop on the 6. My home commute after work, goes like this: 6 to 14th Street, transfer to the 4 or 5 to 149th Street Grand Concourse, transfer to the 2 and get off at Jackson Avenue. I can usually get from Bleecker to 149-GC in 25-30 minutes thanks to the express 4 and 5. Here is the problem: When I arrive at 149-GC to wait for the 2 train, I can wait as long as 20 minutes sometimes for a 2 train to arrive. It's really annoying because you will see 3-4 5 trains pass while I wait. During the morning commute, the 2 train runs often so I don't have to wait more than 5 minutes sometimes for a train. Why can't there be some or more 2 trains that run express in Manhattan during the afternoon commute to help reduce this waiting time? Or, why can't some 5 trains run local in the Bronx during the afternoon rush since there seem to be a lot more them running? It always seems that Bronxites who live between 149-3rd Ave and 180th Street get screwed with subway service.
Trust me, it's been like this ever since the Deuce started running local, and it will continue to be like this until full express service is restored on the West Side IRT.
Since the exact time of riding was not provided but it was hinted that "JFig24" is riding during the PM rush, I'll provide information between 3 and 7 PM weekdays.
#2 trains are scheduled to leave 149th Street at:
3:00 PM
3:08
3:16
3:24
3:32
3:40
3:48
3:56
4:04
4:12
4:22
4:28
4:36
4:43
4:50-1/2
5:00
5:08
5:15
5:21
5:31-1/2
5:36-1/2
5:40-1/2
5:44-1/2
5:53
6:03
6:08
6:15-1/2
6:21-1/2
6:27
6:34-1/2
6:41
6:48
6:56-1/2
There are no scheduled 20-minute gaps in #2 service during that period. If a 20-minute wait is being experienced on a daily basis at the same time, it's something that needs to be investigated. NYCT's customer service number is 718-330-3322.
David
I'll have to contact them David, because it's really ridiculous. My commute home is made longer than it should be every day because I always have to wait at 149-GC. There have been some times when I have been fortunate enough to have a 2 Train pull in right after the 5 train I was on leaves the station. I find it amazing that a 2 train is scheduled to leave 149-GC every 8 minutes since most of the time, you have about 2 #1 trains running ahead of the 2 up until 96th street.
It is a case of "2 pounds of bologna in a 1-pound bag" right now on the West Side IRT local, at least during rush hours, because of the unavailability of the South Ferry Loop (express service has to terminate at 14th Street, and it's not set up as a real terminal, so its capacity is limited -- thus #2 trains are running local). Delays do tend to get magnified because an attempt is being made to stuff so much service in there (especially on the Brooklyn end, where capacity is limited by the layout of Rogers Junction and a service pattern that allows Lexington Avenue service to run to both Utica Avenue and Flatbush Avenue), but still a 20-minute wait is hard to understand.
I'd strongly suggest contacting the NYCT customer service people and complaining.
It is a case of "2 pounds of bologna in a 1-pound bag" right now on the West Side IRT local, at least during rush hours, because of the unavailability of the South Ferry Loop (express service has to terminate at 14th Street, and it's not set up as a real terminal, so its capacity is limited -- thus #2 trains are running local).
I think that further investigation would reveal that the TA has needlessly designed the blivit. The headway for the #2 is only 8 minutes during rush hour, as per the schedule you posted. This is well within the capabilities of turning around for a single slip terminal like 14th St. Had the TA operated the #3 as a local to Brooklyn and the #2 as an express to 14th St, then #2 Bronx service would have been decoupled from any of the shortcomings of the Rogers Junction. Moreover, people on the Bway local south of 96th St would have benefitted from having the relatively empty #3 trains, compared to the more heavily used #2's from the Bronx. Even if the TA were about to decrease the #2's headway to 4 minutes, the single slip at 14th Street should be able to handle turnarounds without problems.
Wow..."Qtraindash7" and Mr. Bauman agree on something!
What's a blivit?
David
blivit: bliv·it Pronunciation Key (blvt) n. Slang
1. Something annoying or pointless.
2. Something difficult or impossible to name.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's the word for today, folks.:-)
Oh ... a hooosiewatchit or a watchamacallit ....
--Mark
The 2 should be running express to 14th street (terminal) while the 3 should be local and go to Brooklyn until the Greenwich st line comes back. The 3 has a much shorter ride to it's terminal from Manhattan while the 2 goes all the way up to the Northern Bronx.
That would be too much service for the interlocking at 14th Street to handle, and too little service for the local stops on the Upper West Side.
David
That would be too much service for the interlocking at 14th Street to handle,
The amount of traffic that an interlocking can handle is based on the travel time through the interlocking. This time is the same whether or goes into a single slip (like 14th St) or two slips (like New Lots or Flatbush Aves). This time should be a maximum of 80 seconds, assuming tha the trains travels at 5 mph though the interlocking.
The headways on the #2 have not appoached 4 minutes in decades. Therefore, a two-way passage through the interlocking would entail a maximum of 160 seconds of travel time. This would allow 80 seconds dwell time within the station.
The T/O could not be expected to change ends within 80 seconds. However, there could be a crew change and plenty of time to recharge the brakes to reverse direction within these 80 seconds.
The problem with using 14th St as the terminal for the #2 lies not with the interlocking but with staffing and management.
The R-142's on the 2 can't display a 14th Street destination. Can't be done. End of story.
Until you SubTalkers get your act together and complain in force to TA, TA won't act to get vendors to straighten out their act. On the other hand, if you SubTalkers face similar recurrent problems on the new tech #5s, I will speak to my Deputy Superintendent to see what can be done because the #5 is the last of the Bombardiers trainsets. All of this has been in the vendors hands...and eventually all will be fixed. We did land on the moon, didn't we? CI Peter
I do your test runs for the PM Rush Hours 2 days of the week so will see what happens.
Talk about inflexibility! Give me an old fashioned roll sign anyday!
Rollsigns on the Redbirds couldn't produce 14 St as aterminal, either.
At least they could be turned to a blank space or to a nearby point, like 42nd or 34th (I think 34th is on the signs; I know 42nd is on the signs). I agree that a well-designed electronic display system is most flexible, but the system on the R-142 can't display anything but Flatbush Avenue.
Yes, Times Square is on the roll signs. Remember the 7 have Redbirds!! And yes TS destination is on the mainline Redbirds. Grand Central is on the rollsigns as well.............
I know that. I'm not entirely sure about Penn Station, but I think I've seen it.
>> The R-142's on the 2 can't display a 14th Street destination. Can't be done. End of story. <<
The sign can't be reprogrammed? The train can't be used on another line if need be? Can't plaster a paper sign over the electronic sign? Sounds fishy to me.
The sign can't be reprogrammed?
Not easily enough. Remember, we're talking about the same system that thinks the B still goes to Brooklyn.
The train can't be used on another line if need be?
I don't know if they're programmed for lines other than the 2, 5, and 6. I suppose the R-142's could have been given to the 5 and the 2 could have kept a full Redbird fleet until the line to South Ferry reopened.
Can't plaster a paper sign over the electronic sign?
That's an option, but I can't imagine it would hold up long, especially in the rain.
The sign can't be reprogrammed?
Not easily enough. Remember, we're talking about the same system that thinks the B still goes to Brooklyn.
Then that system sucks and should be ripped out until someone invents a better one!
At the very least, car deliveries should be put on hold and a new system should be designed before we end up with the entire R-142, R-142A, R-143, and R-160 fleets with the same faulty system.
The signs in use on R44 and 46 have all the destinations from what I've heard, why didn't the TA just use those??
The idea was to incorporate the signage into the overall automatic announcement system.
It was a good idea. What when wrong was the design of the automatic announcement system.
OTOH, I don't see how it could have hurt to have the option of manually setting the side signs (as on the R-44/46) in case something went wrong with the automation system.
As a #1 rider, I have to agree with you. I always complain when I'm waiting for my 1 train and a 2 comes first (I can't use the 2 as I live in the Bronx). But lately, it is a rare occasion when the 2 comes before a 1.
(I can't use the 2 as I live in the Bronx)
HUH?
He probably means he lives somewhere between Marble Hill and VCP.
You are correct, sorry for that misworded post! My home station is 238 Street.
...........yea see folks! thats what U git' throwing your releiable
REDBIRDS into the ocean ( to pollute the sea ) !!!
Now taste what U have mocked !!!!!!!!
..........lol..!!
The #2 train runs at 10 minute headways during the day, but delays are not uncommon.
Sometimes, a dispatcher will detect a long delay in n/b 2 service, and order a 5 train to run local to 180. Obviously, this upsets 5 line commuters who will likely complain, "Why can't my express train run express all the time"?
The intelligent thing to do during PM rush, would be to send every other n/b 2 express via 4 track from Chambers to 14th, so it can get a head start on the unavoidable delays it will encounter between 34th and 96th. It would also make sense to order every other 2 train to run express from Flatbush to President during the rush, for the same reason given above. But what do I know? I'm just a T/O.
In some cases, dispatchers are not allowed to give trains a skip, or tell express trains to make local stops when a delay occurs, because too many passengers complain.
At 96th Street, the tower would sometimes give a late s/b 2 train a skip from 96th to 42nd. This infuriated passengers at the bypass stations, who complained loud enough, that the tower is now forbidden from giving any s/b train a skip between 96th and 42.
Sometimes when there is a blockage on the 7 Ave Line they reroute a No.5 to Flatbush on the Weekends. It happen to me last Saturday.
At 96th Street, the tower would sometimes give a late s/b 2 train a skip from 96th to 42nd. This infuriated passengers at the bypass stations, who complained loud enough, that the tower is now forbidden from giving any s/b train a skip between 96th and 42.
That's news to me. When did this change? What about northbound trains? Does this apply to the 1 as well as the 2, and will this policy continue once the 2 returns to express service?
I'm not sure when this new policy started. I found out about it when I was on the bored, I mean, board, at 149/GC. I didn't pick up a job, so I just sat in the tower for eight hours. Eventually, I got into a conversation with the dispatcher and tower operator, and they told me that they can't give any s/b trains a skip from 96th. Perhaps it's the same going n/b, but that decision would most likely be made at TSQ for the n/b trains.
Question from one who is not all that familar with TA lingo. What does "on the board" mean, and you "didn't pick up a job" mean. Are some T/O's assinged to be available to fill in if another T/O gets ill or has some problems? I know you guys "pick" your assignements, is the board a place you could "pick"?
Bill
"On the board" means that I sit around and wait for an assignment. If someone calls in sick, is late, gets pulled for a random, or has an incident, I got into service(pick up a job).
Either it's pretty new or it's being ignored. In April, I transferred from a 1 on the SB local track to a 2 on the SB express track at 42nd (which means it must have been on the express track since at least 72nd). I didn't see any pressing reason to send it down the express track except that it conveniently made it through 14th between 3's.
In any case, it's about time, and I hope a similar policy applies northbound at TSQ (where skipping, IME, is even more of a problem).
There is very rarely a good reason for a local to skip its busiest local stops.
I'll try to find out more about all this. I have nothing but time these days. I never get road jobs anymore. I'm either in the yard, doing a car wash job, or sitting on the board, waiting for an assignment.
Thanks for the info on the terminology. Now, how did you get "on the board"? Did you pick that or did you wind up there? Are you high or low on seniorty? Are road jobs preferred by T/O's to what you have been doing recently. And does being on the board have any relation to being extra or extra extra (and basically what do those terms mean)?
Thanks for educating on me on these terms that I see here frequently but never really understood.
When your extra and theres no Jobs you just sit on the board at any Given Gap station. My favorite spot was 148 St-Lenox.
I got "on the board" because I'm a new train operator, and no permanent jobs are available to me, and my services were not needed for a road or yard job.
But there are guys who pick "extra" jobs so that they can also be on the board.
I don't like it, and usually call the crew office before I leave home, so that they can send me directly to a job. Other guys like being on the board, because they might get called for a job, which means serious overtime.
Obviously that proscription did not make it's way further south. Just last evening I was treated to watching a n/b Deuce pass us right by just south of Times Square, and niether I nor any of the other possibly interested passengers had a chance to catch it.
All this talk about the 2 train has reminded me of a funny story.
A few weeks ago, a new T/O was at 42 on the deuce, going s/b. He was running late, so the tower told him to "go express to 14th street". So what does he do? You got it. He skipped 34th. It should have been obvious to him that the tower wanted him to make "express stops".
Oops!
I hope his C/R made the same mistake!
I hope the C/R pulled the cord otherwise he will go downtown with the T/O.
What would pulling the cord do?
He would already be past the zebra boards before he realized that they were not going to stop. By the time he reacts, pulls the cord, and the train actually stops they would be lucky to have the last car left in the station, and *that* would *really* have screwed the lion.
The local stops south of 42nd are a lot less busy than the ones north of 42nd. If a train needs to bypass something to get back on schedule, it should be the less busy stops.
I still don't understand the TA's extreme reluctance (i.e., I've never seen it happen on the West Side IRT) to fill gaps in local service by diverting an express to the local track, so the local behind it never gets overburdened to begin with.
(Sometimes, a dispatcher will detect a long delay in n/b 2 service, and order a 5 train to run local to 180. Obviously, this upsets 5 line commuters who will likely complain, "Why can't my express train run express all the time"?)
Not only the commuters but the No.5 train crews also complain about it. There where times I heard Mott tell a train to make Local stops and the T/O stopped and called Control center as to why and Control sometimes overule Mott telling the crew to run Express.
All that crazy stuff makes me happy to work on the Lexington Ave. Express.
When I was riding the Q over the bridge I got the thinking, what's going to happen in 2004. Will Coney Island be subject to only one Broadway line service? Will there be multiple lines or is it Broadway all the way. I know I don't make the best plans (or most popular plans for that matter) I feel things shouldn't go back to the 1980s way(exept for a few things). I made up this plan a few days ago but I haven't gotten the time to present it here until now. I split it up into two plans. Both have other lines that don't go into Coney Island.
Plan 1
B 6 Avenue line
All times except Night: Local in Manhattan from 145 street to 59 street. Express from 7 Avenue to 9 Avenue. Local from 9 Avenue to Coney Island. Rush hour And Midday's Extended to Bedford Park Blvd.
Nights: Local from Pacific Street to Coney Island
D 6 Avenue line
Rush hour, Midday's and Evenings: Local in the Bronx, Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn from 205 Street to Brighton Beach
Nights: Local from 205 Street to 145 Street
Weekends: Local in The Bronx, Express in Manhattan from 205 street to Prospect Park
F: Normal Service
N: Normal Service
Q Broadway line
All times: Local in Manhattan, Express in Brooklyn from 57 Street to Coney Island
Plan 2
B 6 Avenue line
Rush hour, Midday's and Evenings: Local from Bedford Park Blvd. to 7 Avenue, Express from 5 Avenue to Bay Parkway
Other times: No Service
D 6 Avenue line
All times: Local in the Bronx and Brooklyn, Express in Manhattan from 205 Street to Coney Island.
F: Normal Service
M Nassau Street line
All times: Local from Metropolitan Avenue to Broad Street
N: Normal Service
Q Broadway Line
Rush hour, Midday's and Evenings: Express from 57 Street to Brighton Beach
Other Times: No Service
W Broadway Line
All Times: Express From 57 street to 36 Street, Local from 36 street to Coney Island
All D trains run skip stop service in Rush hour
"W Broadway Line
All Times: Express From 57 street to 36 Street, Local from 36 street to Coney Island"
That's way too many trains on the express track from pacific to 36th. Also, M terminating at Broad would put too many trains there, could get crazy.
i recommend W local through montague tunnel to coney island. B express from 5th ave to bay parkway over bridge, N train express canal to 36th over bridge.
For J,M,Z issue, i recommend terminating the J at chambers street, and the M and Z at Broad Street. This will allow enough time to get the J turned around and back uptown. Simultaneously an M or Z could be leaving Broad and not run into the J at chambers because there is a leeway of a couple of stations. This will relieve pressure at Broad Street.
or better yet:
B: 145th or Bedford Pk-Coney Island all times except late nights
D:205th St-Coney Island all times
Q:(Broadway EXP) 57th-Brighton Beach except weekends
N:normal except runs over bridge and is broadway express
M:Metropolitan Ave.-95th St Bay Ridge except late nights
W:Ditmars Blvd-Bay Parkway except weekends(West End Exp peak direction)
it looks better that way.I really think the M should run with the R to 95th cause to me that section needs a bit more service especially for those at 86th st.
We've been informed by a very reliable source on this board that all possible scenarios are being considered for 2004. This notwithstanding, I believe the most likely plan (although this is not my favorite) is as follows:
B service as prior to the MB flip
D service as prior to the MB flip
Q service as Q diamond is now
R service as now
M service to southern division cut back to rush hours only
W Broadway Local, Ditmars Blvd. Astoria to Whitehall, weekdays 6:30 AM to 8:00 P.M.
N Broadway line, rush hours Ditmars Blvd. Astoria to 86th St. Gravesend, express from Times Square to 59th St. Brooklyn, mid-days from 57th St,/7th Av., express to 59th St. Brooklyn (skips Dekalb). Evenings from 8 PM, nights, and weekends via tunnel, local all the way from Ditmars Blvd. Astoria to 86th St. Gravesend.
Q, needless to say, I don't like your probable scenario even though I fear it might be the one that goes. The N doesn't go to Stillwell, is still called a Local instead of the Broadway Express, and doesn't go over the bridge but instead traverses that rotten Montague Tunnel. Why do you want to ruin my weekend by coming out and saying something like that? Sometimes the probable truth hurts.
if you read carefully you will see that that is true only on weekends and after 9pm
Fred: You really must tell me what you have against the Montague Street Tunnel. You sound like the guy in the old Abbott and Costello movies who was always looking for MacDougal Street. If it wasn't for the Montague Street Tunnel the Sea Beach folks would still be picking up the ferry at 59 Street to come to Manhattan. (BTW the ferry is running again. Its a great ride and its free.)
I look forward to seeing you on the IRT Redbird trip.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Notice Fred, it's local all the way and via tunnel from 8PM to 6:30 AM and weekends and holidays. You've still got via bridge express on weekdays.
<<< B service as prior to the MB flip >>>
<<< D service as prior to the MB flip >>>
<<< Q service as Q diamond is now >>>
<<< N Broadway line, rush hours Ditmars Blvd. Astoria to 86th St. Gravesend, express from Times Square to 59th St. Brooklyn, mid-days from 57th St,/7th Av., express to 59th St. Brooklyn (skips Dekalb). Evenings from 8 PM, nights, and weekends via tunnel, local all the way from Ditmars Blvd. Astoria to 86th St. Gravesend. >>>
There is one major flaw with this suggestion - you have two services on the north side of the bridge and no service on the south side of the bridge during evenings, nights and weekends. That is the LAST thing we need. The NYC DOT has spent hundreds of millions of dollars and inconvenienced thousands of Brooklyn subway riders for the last 20 years trying to correct the structural problems associated with having more trains on the north side of the bridge than on the south side. And whoever this source is is suggesting going back to running more trains on the north side again. Not a good idea! Running only the B and D trains over the bridge evenings, nights and weekends will cause the same structural problems all over again. Service needs to be balanced over the bridge. If only two services run over the bridge outside of rush and midday hours, they need to be one service via Broadway and one via 6th Avenue. Otherwise, get ready for another 20 (or maybe 25 or 30) more years of bridge closings and train reroutes. Let's not make the same mistakes over again.
Here's what I suggest for when the bridge returns to full service AND when Stillwell Avenue construction is finished:
B - Weekdays 6AM-9PM: Runs from 145th Street, Manhattan to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn. Local from 145th St to 59th Street, express from Rock Center to 36th St, Brooklyn. Possibly, also express peak direction from 9th Avenue to Bay Parkway.
Nights and weekends: Not running
D - Same as before 7/22/01
N - Weekdays 6AM-9PM: Runs from Ditmars/Astoria to Coney Island via bridge and Sea Beach Line. All stops from Ditmars to 34th St/Herald Square, then express 34th to 59th St/4th Av, Brooklyn.
All other times: Runs from 57th St/7th Av to Coney Island via bridge and Sea Beach. Express stops from 57th St, Manhattan to 59th St, Brooklyn.
Q - Same as current Q-diamond.
W - All times: Runs from Ditmars/Astoria to Coney Island via West End Line. Would become the primary West End Service. All local stops in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn. Runs via Montague tunnel.
R - Same as now.
M - Cut back to Broad or Chambers Sts in Manhattan.
This would create a balanced load on the Manhattan Bridge. If we don't have a balanced load on the bridge, we'll be right back to where we started. We don't need that to happen.
I don't recall having seen here an engineer's professional judgement concerning bridge balance, so unless you are one or have yourself obtained an engineer's professional opinion of this, I have to stick with the plan I summarized as the most likely come 2004.
Read the Manhattan Bridge FAQ.
Hey Brightliner,
What's up? I'm a little curious about something... How would you run these train routes when the MB's 4 tracks are opened again?
Q Exp, good to see you're back, too. If it was up to me what would be the service plan? Similar to the one you proposed before the Subtalk hiatus.
Thanks for the compliment. I only wish the MTA would run routes that way (or something similar). Unfortunately, it looks like they're opting for a cheaper method.
I think there should be some provision made for Brighton Express service on the Weekends. The "W" short line to Whitehall (hence the "W"!) is fine.
wayne
I would love there to be a Brighton Express on weekends. I believe that the ridership figures that were posted on this board some time ago provide economic justification for it, too.
The D and Q there would be not a bad idea at all, especially with the ridership very high on weekends. Remember, it is really the only Coney Island bound branch with local and express service. The others have just local service with the lack of ridership.
OR THIS
SERVICES VIA NORTHSIDE MANHATTAN BRIDGE:
B Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Nights] – All stops, 145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; express stops from 59 Street, Manhattan to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge); Rush Hours extended to Bedford Blvd, The Bronx.
[Nights] – BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All stops from 36 Street to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave.
Transfer to N or R at 36 Street for service to/from Manhattan.
D Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Rush Hours] – Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Rush Hours] – Express Stops in The Bronx on trip to Manhattan (AM rush hrs), to The Bronx (PM rush hrs), express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
SERVICES VIA SOUTHSIDE MANHATTAN BRIDGE:
N Train: Broadway Local
[Middays/Rush Hours] – All stops in Queens and Manhattan, express stops in Brooklyn from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evenings/Nights] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens, through Manhattan, to Coney Island/ Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Weekends] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 57th Street/7th Ave, Manhattan; express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn; all stops in Brooklyn from Dekalb Ave to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island (via South Side Manhattan Bridge). Transfer to R for local service in Manhattan. On weekends nights, N makes all local stops in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn, from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
Q Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM] – Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn, and N or R for service to/from Manhattan.
Transfer between D N and R at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
W Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge); All stops from 36th St to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via N).
[Evenings/Nights/Weekends]: No Service; Use N instead.
SERVICES VIA MONTAGUE STREET TUNNEL
M Train: Nassau Street Local
[Middays] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to 9th Ave, Brooklyn.
[Rush Hours/Evening] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Bay Pkwy, Brooklyn.
[Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
Transfer to J at Myrtle Ave for service to/from Manhattan.
*R Train: Broadway Local
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
(via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights] – All stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
Transfer to E at 42nd St for local service in Queens.
Z Train: Nassau Street Express
Rush Hours extended to 95th Street Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
* SERVICE TO BE INCREASE
While no decisions have been made, here's the most likely plan with all 4 tracks on the bridge open:
B: same as before 7/22/01
D: same as before 7/22/01
M: Same as today, perhaps cut back to Chambers during the day
N: Express via the bridge to 34th St (same as today's W north of 36th St)
Q: Same as today's diamond Q
R: Same as today
W: Astoria/Bway local to Whitehall, rush hours, or perhaps all day long
My two cents:
B: Concourse Local - 6 Ave Exp - West End Local : Day Times
B: West End Shuttle : Nights
D: Concourse Exp - 6 Ave Exp - Brighton Local : All Times
N: Astoria Local - Broadway Express - Sea Beach : All Times
Q: 179th St Exp - Broadway Express - Brighton Express : Day Times
R: Continental Local - Broadway Local : 4th Ave Local : All Times
W: Astoria Local - Broadway Express - West End Express : Days
Ok, so the (F) gets cut back a few trains to make room for the (Q), this is made up for by the (V) service.
(R) Service should be increased, I suspect the bottle neck here would be the 60th street tunnel, though the (N) and (W) services do not run *that* frequently, especially with the (B) as the primary West End Service.
To be revised....
Elias
There's no advantage of running Q service to 179th. R service today is running at 72% of capacity and doesn't need to be increased.
This will make Fred happy, almost.
Terminate the N at 57th Street and let the W make the runs up to Astoria.
LOL. I think he'll gladly let his Slow, er Sea Beach run to Astoria if it means a return to the Manhattan bridge.
what was service lixe in 1990 when the Queensbridge line went to 21st st and both sides were open?
If I remember, around that time the 9 and Z came into service, and The B was running to Queensbridge evenings so I guess the Q was on the Broadway line at that time. This might not be right granted I was 4 at the time
In 1990, only the N operated along Broadway, the Q used 6th.
did the N use the manhattan bridge?
After two years of having everything on the south side (same as today) they shut it down for two years to deal with the presumably never-before volume. The downriver rails were the N route from September to December of 1990, but whatever they did by way of repairs was not enough. Hence no service until last July. Obviously they knew the south side tracks would someday be burdened by three trains again and did the job right this time.
Supposedly a cracked beam was discovered on the south side and the tracks were closed immediately. They would not reopen until last July.
The Z was created on 12/12/88, one day after Archer Ave. opened. #9 service began in August 1989.
The N was simply shifted from the tunnel to the bridge, running express south of 34th St. The Q remained on 6th Ave, operating to Queenbridge.
This service plan lasted for only 3 months, from late Sptember to late December. It was poorly planned. Broadway local stops lost half their service and R trains were horribly congested coming to/from Brooklyn during rush hours. N riders in Astoria whined about the loss of service to lower Manhattan. The 4th Ave express was a mess because 3 lines (B, M, N) ran express from Pacific to 36th St.
I really thought I'd seen everything in five years of commuting on the LIRR. Wrong!
I got the 5:22 to Ronkonkoma this afternoon, first stop Wyandanch. We came to a stop at Farmingdale and sat there for about five minutes with the doors closed. The conductor then came on the P.A. and announced that there were "red signals" ahead of us. That didn't quite sound right, and indeed a few minutes later he announced that there was "police activity" in a front car of our train (I was in the next-to-last car). We finally began moving about ten minutes later, for a total delay of about 20 minutes.
After the Brentwood stop, I got up and began walking toward the front of the train so I'd be closer to my car when we got to Ronkonkoma. When I was in either the first or second car, I overheard some people talking about the earlier incident. Being a curious sort, I plopped down in a vacant seat and listened to their account. I'll caution here that I didn't witness the incident myself, but these people apparently had and sounded quite reasonable.
From what I could gather, a woman passenger had notified the conductor of a "suspicious person" on the train. It was a black man with some scars on his face and wearing a Muslim-style white skullcap. He had gotten up from his seat and stood in the vestible area facing right up against the door, and the woman saw his arm moving quickly with his hand out of sight in front of his body. She, being obviously a paranoid bed-wetting type, immediately summoned a conductor. For his part, the conductor went into another car (courageous dude, ain't he?) and summoned the police to meet the train at Farmingdale.
Ah, but the best is yet to come. The cops came onto the train and questioned the suspicious man. Turns out that he had gotten a terrible itch on his, well, on a part of the body that would be covered a fig leaf if he were a statue, and stood up against the door so he could scratch himself discreetly.
According to the account I heard, the man was not angry or upset about the incident, though no doubt he was mighty embarrassed. He had gotten off by the time I made it to the car and heard this account, as had the paranoid woman. As far as I'm concerned, he ought to sue the LIRR for all it's worth ... oh right, considering the LIRR's monstrous operating deficits, it's not worth much :-) The woman, of course, got off scot-free even though her paranoia humiliated an innocent person and delayed 1,200 people by 20 minutes. I am truly disgusted that people have come to this.
Ignorance and bigotry team up again. I guess all you can do is resolve to not act that way, and try to set a good example for others to follow.
I hope the cops were polite and respectful in their approach to this man.
And I hope they offered him some talcum powder in the men's room.
Ignorance and bigotry team up again. I guess all you can do is resolve to not act that way, and try to set a good example for others to follow.
I hope the cops were polite and respectful in their approach to this man.
From what I gather, they were, but it still must have been unspeakably humiliating for him.
One thing I forgot to add earlier was that several other passengers had seen this man, and no one else was concerned. Supposedly, this paranoid woman got a lot of criticism from the other passengers after the incident was over.
Sure hope the PRESS gets a dose of it for getting people all worked up. At least folks down in the city, being an international focus, have a right to get a bit twitchy. NBC Nightly Nukes and its ilk (like "America's BS channel" and Certainly Not News ("what were the terrorists WEARING?") ) have got folks up HERE twitching and locking themselves in the cellar fer krissakes and about the only thing there is to blow up around here is BEARS ...
As a former urinalist, I respect the PURPOSE of the press but what we've got is a bunch of morons with no journalistic integrity or values filling us full of crap 24 hours a day. There are times when I personally wonder if the first amendment was such a great idea these days. As Edward R Murrow often said at Columbia to students, "know when to publish and when *NOT* to publish for the greater good" ... a lesson completely lost on the morons of the media these days.
"Loose lips" ... 'nuff said.
SelkirkTMO wrote:
>
> Sure hope the PRESS gets a dose of it for getting
> people all worked up.
I'd say Dick Cheney and Robert Mueller have been getting people worked up and the press has been reporting on it. It hardly makes people feel better when the head of the FBI says that suicide bomber attacks are imminent and inevitable. While it would be lying to say that we'll always be able to stop terrorists, I don't think it's responsible for government officials to speak as though it's not even worth trying. Certainly doesn't sound like the American 'can do' attitude we should have.
While I agree with you completely, but the press IS culpable too. In the never-ending search to play the "breaking news" "bumper" every 15 minutes, the media has given more weight to "breaking the news" with anything they can find ("email us NOW and tell us if you think we're all going to die *TODAY*") complete with (ahem) "experts" that got tossed out of the military for being morons who now pontificate on what Osama Bin Smokin' is wearing and who's going to die ... where they receive a TTY saying "advisory - the FBI believes X" they'll sit and take a grain of fact and blow it completely out of proportion, take that advisory and then pontificate on all sorts of rabid speculation to fill airtime and column inches over complete BS.
"Police have responded to city hall" ... that suddenly turns into ANTHRAX SUSPECTED ... or "a bomb was found" that 15 minutes later turns out to be a pair of shoes, or like the "backpack on the Brooklyn Bridge" that was EMPTY. You see, my condemnation of the press is the urge to whip everybody up instead of sitting the story out and waiting for an ACTUAL RESULT ... instead, it's "all missiles away" and no option to recall them since they spread rumor and inuendo that turns out to be pure BS to begin with. That's MY problem with it all having been a print reporter, radio reporter, television reporter and an anchorman at a Podunk UHF station in Poughkeepsie.
So yeah, while the politicians are bumping up their ratings to 75% (as reported in polls deliberately steered by the questions asked to GENERATE the results) the PRESS could act responsibly (fat chance) and WAIT OUT the wtory to its conclusion ... instead, we get talking heads back and forth and when they're proven to be full of sheet once the RESULTS are in, they ignore all they said, offer no corrections and proclaim "we're under attack!" ... gimme a break. This is an area I'm all too familiar with and the media deserves a good old fashioned 8th avenue bitch-slapping for their abysmal conduct throughout this neverending, continuing "Attack on America" ... 2,000+ people *DIED* in the "attack on America" ... are we proud of these morons in the media and in DC? Somehow it appears that way and that wrenches my gut.
All of these false calls will occur and everyone will say argh and they will be angry, what about the time when the backpack isn't open and it ends up be rigged. I totally agree with you about the press overdoing the situation. I think that the government is trying to cover their asses this time around rather than coming under fire for 9/11 and hints at something (but not nearly as close to it). So, there were plenty of hoaxes before these announcements, no one announced them. But now with the memo and stuff, they'll tell us anything. Better to be safe than sorry, but too safe freaks the shit out of me.
Is there anyone who doesn't believe that many of the government's releases of specific targets and "100% probablities" this week isn't directly related to the criticism they took last week for "having known about 9/11 beforehand and not doing anything"?
CG
Do i really need to hear every night that tomorrow a plane will crash into downtown Manhattan or that Alqada (?) excists anywhere a witch would have been 400 years ago. Has this world come down to hearsay and gossip. Has the word of God been forgotten.has He not said something about "not having idle hands" Then why do idle hands create all this bullshit about airline safety. They way CNN would like it is so every person is strip searched, EXCEPT for CNN employees of course. Why are the media such pessimists?
I just wish you guys would try to get all of the facts before you start to beat the liberal tom-toms. There are actually bad guys out there. Colin Fergusen wasn't an arab terrorist but he killed a few innocent commuters for his own brand of paranoia. Sometimes a barking dog will bite. Sometimes that unidentified fish will be a shark. I was just reading a pamphlet put out by the NYPD about ATM safety. One of the points it makes is if you feel threatened, make noise, cross the street or even run. DO not worry about being embarrassed or hurting the feelings of the other person. It makes sense, too. You need to be alive to feel embarrassed.
I was just reading a pamphlet put out by the NYPD about ATM safety. One of the points it makes is if you feel threatened, make noise, cross the street or even run.
How does this square with NYCT's policy of designing new cars that prevent passengers from "crossing the street" by changing cars.
The slight threat of being trapped in a car and being the victim of a crime is weighed against the definite and real danger of crossing between moving cars on a curve.
I'm not advocating any kind of liberal anything, Train Dude. The LIRR was very prudent to call police to the scene and the officers did nothing wrong. But prejudice is prejudice - it isn't liberal, conservative or anything else. It is what it is.
This has nothing to do with prejudice. Rather the exact opposite is the issue. Extremists on the left are in effect saying that we Americans may not take steps to insure our own safety whenever the threat comes from alien peoples or cultures. If we do take such safety measures, we are then called "prejudiced."
I, for one, do not intend to let such unwarranted name-calling stop me from advocating and doing everything nessesary to secure my own safety and that of my country.
Alan Glick
Ron, THE MAN SAID HE HAD A GUN. THE MAN WAS ACTING IN AN AGGITATED MANNER. THE WOMAN FELT THREATENED. If the woman were black (and we don't know the color or race of the woman who made the complaint and the guy claiming to have the gun were white would you then call it prejudice? I think that the general assumption that the woman's motives were anything other than what they seem on the face is the true prejudice.
This is a tricky subject. A person cannot be "suspicious" due to the color of their skin or their religion. But, since most of our terroists are from the Middle East, it does not surprise me that this happened. However, you need reasonable cause to report someone suspicious, and this situation did not have that. -Nick
The latest homicide bomber in Israel died their hair BLONDE to elude detection. Granted, having dogs sniff at grandma's walker is a bit over the edge ...
The latest homicide bomber in Israel died their hair BLONDE to elude detection.
And, what's more, cut it into a Mohawk.
Didn't catch that bit ... "what was he wearing?" tells me that came from AOLCNN. :)
Sorry for chiding in again on this, but this TRULY IS another tangent entirely. I was so busy being honked off at the morons who have press passes, forgot the other (more significant) angle you offered ...
"RACIAL" profiling is wrong ... because of yet another media angle (I'll let this twist die here) we keep focusing on "PEOPLE" as the locus of "suspicion" rather than SUSPICIOUS CONDUCT which ANY cop can tell you is the real reason why their ears perk up and give chase when something "smells funny" owing to the sensitivities of the "trade."
Cops have BS detectors that are finely honed with painful experience and yet the mentality of why one person is selected for "examination" as opposed to another that looks JUST like them all comes down to BEHAVIORS ... lies, evasion, glancing away, you name it ... law enforcement types are trained to be set off by "this don't smell right" ... hard to explain beyond that - it's INTUITION that comes with the territory.
*THIS* is what should be the basis of "call it in" for ordinary folks. No one is epected to have a cop's mindset but simple things like someone pacing nervously in front of a building is someone who might need some counseling. Folks that keep looking "over there" intently are someone who might be up to something (usually a snatch and run) ... cluephone pickup for anyone who notices someone with a coat tightly clutched around them and a bulge that isn't saying "I love you" in 95 degree weather is definitely a clue ...
What the media *ISN'T* helping with is "if something seems out of place or not a normal BEHAVIOR ... something's UP." Of course the reality is that suspicious person is about to ROB YOU or worse, they're a wiseass looking to screw with your head. :)
But "profiling" as it's called may be racist among a small number of people with mental problems in law enforcement, but BEHAVIOR profiling is something that someone with experience uses far more often to say "this person ain't behaving right" ... and usually there's a REASON for it.
Glad the guy on the train meant no harm, SORRY to hear he was personally "crucified" ... if we were to be a SMARTER society, we'd be getting the details of *HOW* to slice the bologna from our media and law enforcement types we've walked up to and pointed the finger at somebody and have the opportunity to LEARN that "here's WHY that one was OK, no problem" and not beat up on the misguided individual whose SOLE SOURCE of reality is NBC Nightly Nukes and such.
I'm putting myself in the shoes of that poor innocent follower of Islam here - I wouldn't blame the woman for being misinformed and making a bad judgement. If she were a COP with some time on the force, it might be a different story ... but man oh man, some folks need a REAL edumication and not the crap they're being handed on TV as a basis to judge perps ...
But I don't fault the lady, wasn't REALLY her fault. The media told her she was doing the RIGHT thing by flipping out. We need to FIX that with REAL information on "how to spot the loony" ...
Sue the LIRR over this incident? Why? They are clearly in a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.
If you were the conductor, what would you have done?
CG
I also was on that train in my usual place, 10th car.
Peter, thanks for posting what you heard happended. It is not like the LIRR would ever give the truth anyway. :-) If I hear anything different I'll post it.
Of course, 20 minute delay was a bit long for a guy scratching his privates, no?
Welcome to the new world order. Get used to it.
If this woman had been in the boarding area of one the hijacked 9/11 planes, what you refer to as her "paranoia" could possibly have saved thousands of lives.
Would you have us refrain from reporting suspisious activity unless we are 100% sure that such activity is definitly sign of an impending crime? We don't always have such sure proof. I'm hoping that the majority of people do not wait until definite proof is obtained (by which time it is probably too late to do anything) before reporting 'suspisious' activity. Where thousands of lives are at stake it's better to be safe rather than sorry. Lives are more important than pc sensibilities. Liberals obviously don't think so.
Also, would you have us refrain from reporting suspisious activity only when the person involoved is of apparent Mid-East origin? I doubt that liberals would have been so upset with this woman had the guy looked like Ward Cleaver.
The terrorists must find comfort in the fact that there are Americans who are giving Middle East looking people more leeway to look suspisious.
By the way, the conductor notifying that police showed not cowardice, but intelligence. Had the person been up to no good, the police are better prepared to prevent terrorists acts than a conductor.
Alan Glick
John walker.......huummmmmmmmmmmmmm
was he middle-eastern?
Only ME looking people are terrorists?
Sounds like a paranoid conservative playing the blame game.
For every one John Walker you can name there are a hundred Middle Eastern looking terrorists. Typical liberal response; to focus on the one in a million exeption and ignore the overwhelming evidence. You can't hide from the truth by calling those who espouse it paranoid. Let's take this test:
In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes, from Israel, were
kidnapped and massacred by:
(a) Olga Korbutt
(b) Sitting Bull
(c) Arnold Schwartzeneger
(d) Muslims mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Lost Norwegians
(b) Elvis
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
(d) Muslims mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
(a) John Dillinger
(b) The King of Sweden
(c) The Boy Scouts
(d) Muslims mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a) A pizza delivery boy
(b) Pee Wee Herman
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
(d) Muslims mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
(a) The Smurfs
(b) Davey Jones
(c) The Little Mermaid
(d) Muslims mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
(a) Captain Kidd
(b) Charles Lindberg
(c) Mother Teresa
(d) Muslims mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a) Scooby Doo
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid who had a few sticks of dynamite left over from the train job.
(d) Muslims mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
(a) Richard Simmons
(b) Grandma Moses
(c) Michael Jordan
(d) Muslims mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
(c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless"
(d) Muslims mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were killed by:
(a) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
(b) The Supreme Court of Florida
(c) Mr. Bean
(d) Muslims mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
(a) Bonny and Clyde
(b) Captain Kangaroo
(c) Billy Graham
(d) Muslims between the ages of 17 and 40
Hmmm . . .
nope, no patterns anywhere to justify profiling
Alan Glick
Yes I agree.
But how about John walker, unabomber, charles bishop, okahoma city?
These groups most likely support ME terrorists. Charles Bishop praised bin larden. Yes the people who attacked us were ME but we need to pay attention to everyone who acts suspicious. Not just ME looking people.
Typical conservative response; to ignore troubles comming from within this country.
The troubles ARE NOT coming from within this country. Mr. Glick is a conservative, I consider myself a liberal But Mr. Glick is RIGHT on the money here. ANY terrorism taking place in this country will almost certainly be islamist in origin. Animal rights kooks do not go for mass body count, they're mostly into property crimes and I doubt like heck if you'll hear from the militia movement any time soon.
OK, I'm sure we all got that test fowarded to us at least 20 times. Now, just to be devil's advocate answer these questions:
Who blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City?
What group set off a bomb in 1 Police Plaza & 26 Federal Plaza New Years Eve '82-'83?
What ethnic group set off a bomb at the entrance of Aeroflot Airlines on 5th Av protesting treatment of Soviet Jewry?
What ethnic group set off a bomb in a locker at Laguardia Airport and also Fraunces Tavern in Lower Manhattan?
Who shot up a whole railroad car on the LIRR between New Hyde Pk and Merrillon Av on Pearl Harbor Day in 1993?
What is the ethnic group of the ONLY person arrested for attempting to blow up a plane Just before lighting the fuse on his shoe?
Answers:Timothy McVeigh, a VERY American looking person.FALNJewish members of the JDLFALN Colin Ferguson, a West IndianBritish
That's six(*) non-Arab attacks. Big deal. There have probably been 6 Arab terorist attacks claiming for more lives in just the past month alone. It's also illuminating that you had to look far back into the 80's for some of these examples. Once again we have a focus on the relatively minute number of exeptions to the rule, in the hopes of avoiding admitting the overwhelming truth.
*Additionally, your answer to #6 not true. Reid was born in Britain but look at his picture.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1729000/1729472.stm
He is obviously not of British ethnicity. And he is a Muslim.
Alan Glick
I meant to type "There have probably been 6 Arab terorist attacks claiming *far* more lives in just the past month alone"
It incorrectly came out "for more lives"
Alan Glick
*Additionally, your answer to #6 not true. Reid was born in Britain but look at his picture.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1729000/1729472.stm
He is obviously not of British ethnicity. And he is a Muslim.
Reid is of mixed Jamaican and British ancestry and is a recent convert to Islam.
OK, I'm sure we all got that test fowarded to us at least 20 times. Now, just to be devil's advocate answer these questions:
Who blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City?
Members of the Amish Nudist Society.
What group set off a bomb in 1 Police Plaza & 26 Federal Plaza New Years Eve '82-'83?
Nursery school kids angry at the cancellation of their milk and cookies break.
What ethnic group set off a bomb at the entrance of Aeroflot Airlines on 5th Av protesting treatment of Soviet Jewry?
The Pitcairn Island Liberation Front.
What ethnic group set off a bomb in a locker at Laguardia Airport and also Fraunces Tavern in Lower Manhattan?
Why don't they just go back to Madagascar where they belong?
Who shot up a whole railroad car on the LIRR between New Hyde Pk and Merrillon Av on Pearl Harbor Day in 1993?
Hasidic Jewish lesbians.
What is the ethnic group of the ONLY person arrested for attempting to blow up a plane Just before lighting the fuse on his shoe?
Paraguayan.
Howard, let's not get too far afield here. It was not what this person looked like that caused the passenger(s) to react - it was not his ethnicity. It was what he did - It was what he said - It was how he acted that caused the passenger(s) to alert the conductor. There was nothing more to it than that. Let's not try to turn this into some Ad Hoc "liberal civics lesson"
Peter, I was not on the train but a friend of mine was. He was dead-heading on the train and he gave me this account. The person in question was acting in an aggitated manner on the train. He made several threats and stated that he had a gun. Several passengers (not just one) became alarmed and the conductor called for police.
The police took the man off the train and searched him and found no gun. The man was sufficiently calm while in police custody that the police believed he was not a threat to the other passengers and as such, released him.
The question is, what would you have done as the conductor? Would you have thrown the person in question up against the wind screen and frisked him? What if he did have a gun? Remember Colin Fergesun? Last week a conductor was threatened by some moron with a lighter and a liquid in a bottle he claimed was gasoline.
As for me, I do not want the crew to make any assumptions where my personal safety is at stake. If a passenger is acting crazy or making threats, I want the crew to be prudent. That gentleman who was 'wronged' was making threats. What if he had the gun he claimed to have? What I want to know is if it's against the law to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, why is it not against the law to yell "gun" on a crowded train?
Peter, I was not on the train but a friend of mine was. He was dead-heading on the train and he gave me this account. The person in question was acting in an aggitated manner on the train. He made several threats and stated that he had a gun. Several passengers (not just one) became alarmed and the conductor called for police.
The police took the man off the train and searched him and found no gun. The man was sufficiently calm while in police custody that the police believed he was not a threat to the other passengers and as such, released him.
Okay then, I'll have to stand corrected. The people I heard discussing the incident may not have seen it themselves, though that wasn't my impression, but instead got it second-hand.* Which would mean, of course, that what I heard was third-hand, and it's not surprising that a lot got lost in "translation."
Based on what your friend described, it certainly was appropriate to call the police. Making threats about having a gun is a serious matter. In fact, I would have to say that the police should not have allowed him to remain on the train, even if they didn't make an arrest. He should just have been put off in Farmingdale.
I raised the same issue with him (my friend). Had I been the conductor, I would not have allowed the man back on the train - as he ultimately was.
The sequence of events, as you describe them, are not entirely consistent with the description that your friend offered of this man's behavior.
This brings into question the accuracy of your friend's description of the man's behavior.
The man was hand-cuffed on the platform at Farmingdale. The man was subsequently released. Do you have information that refutes this? I was suprised that the man was released and allowed to re-board the train. My friend, a LIRR conductor with nearly 30 years experience, had no explanation for what happened. I am mearly repeating what I was told.
Train Dude,
I am not disputing the facts that you posted just now (14:45:19). What I am wondering about is exactly how this incident was classified by the police. They could have taken other actions beside allowing him to reboard or taking him to jail.
Once, while riding MBTA Red Line in Boston, I was present when MBTA Transit Police arrived to interview a young woman who, allegedly, had been briefly wandering on the tracks near the Charles-Mass General Hospital elevated station. I did not know whether she really was on the tracks or not, but she appeared depressed to me. She was calm and polite with the officers, and denied wanting to kill herself or do anything foolish involving a subway train or ROW. The officers persuaded her to leave the train, doing so kindly and politely and showing her every consideration. She was not subsequently detained, but they chose to drive her in their patrol car to her intended destination rather than allow her to reboard. She also was given the option to be driven to a hospital, if that is what she wanted.
She could have been allowed to reboard, but was not.
The point is this: the LIRR officers very likely may not have had the same understanding of the incident that you did by your friend's description. Evidently they decided the risk was lower than your friend did. We all hear things through our own personal filters, and it does sound like prejudice may have had something to do with it.
The LIRR acted appropriately in summoning the police, and it sounds like the officers acted appropriately as well. Nothing wrong there.
Ron, I don't know about that. Either the guy was menacing or he wasn't. Either the woman felt threatened or she didn't. It's nice to have a 'happy ending' but perhaps I'm missing something here. Would the police handcuff a perfectly calm individual on the word of an excited woman (that the man was armed)? Would it be more proper for the police to pat the guy down (with his consent), determine he is not armed and then let him go? I've always assumed that once the cuffs went on, we were beyond a spontaneous happy ending. Then again, I'm not an expert on police procedure.
You pose a good question.
Recently, a Philadelphia officer answering a similar question said it is common for a cop to handcuff someone who is being obnoxious or interfering in some way with an investigation (but is not being violent), put him in a patrol car to cool off, then, after completing the investigation, take the cuffs off and let him go on his way (assuming the investigation does not reveal a sustainable charge). Of course, with a "trigger-happy cop" you could actually be booked for disorderly conduct just for speaking "out-of-turn" but one hopes most officers are above that.
>>> I've always assumed that once the cuffs went on, we were beyond a spontaneous happy ending. <<<
Out here in the wild west it is not uncommon for a police officer to put cuffs on someone who is being "detained" but not arrested, particularly if the person is acting in any way that makes the officer suspect he may either run or become violent. If the person resists being cuffed, he almost certainly will be arrested for obstructing the officer in his duties, if nothing else. Cynics will say this is done so the city can trade a dismissal of the charges for a promise not to sue for excessive force or false arrest.
Tom
The man was hand-cuffed on the platform at Farmingdale. The man was subsequently released. Do you have information that refutes this? I was suprised that the man was released and allowed to re-board the train. My friend, a LIRR conductor with nearly 30 years experience, had no explanation for what happened. I am mearly repeating what I was told.
I really wish I knew what happened. Even if the police determined that the man was unarmed and not mentally unstable, having him reboard the train sounds like a very bad idea if for no other reason than the fact that the people who had reported him were still on board. It's not hard to imagine that a nasty confrontation could have resulted.
As far as I know, the conductor is the "captain" of the train and does not have to let anyone board even if the police want the person to board. Is that correct?
I thought the engineer had final say - but let's refer this question to Train Dude.
Train Dude: Who is "in command" of a passenger railroad train - the engineer, or the head conductor?
My friend has told me more than once about a rule in a rule book - not sure about which railroad. It goes like this:
If an eastbound train and a westbound train meet and neither is superior to the other, the two respective conductors shall settle the dispute alone and the loser will back his train into the clear. The engineers will abide by this result.
The Conductor is clearly the commander of the train.
Perhaps I can add some insight into this incident. The conductor who was in charge of the train is on the verge of retirement. He makes one last westbound trip on Tuesday and then will be relieved. He may have not wanted to do aything so late in the game that might interfere with his leisure later on. Of course, I'm only speculating here. As for my friend, his crew was shanghi'd out of Penn Station without him. He was simply deadheading back to Ronkonkoma with no standing on that train.
"If an eastbound train and a westbound train meet and neither is superior to the other, the two respective conductors shall settle the dispute alone and the loser will back his train into the clear. The engineers will abide by this result.
"
NOT!
It does depend on the RR, but on most lines the WESTBOUND is always superior to an otherwise equal eastbound.
It comes from the old west, of course, That is where the gold was, and you had to get the prospectors and the goods out there, trains coming back had a lower priority.
I understand that BNSF give unit coal trains priority over loade hoppers regardless of tirection, assuming I suppose that it costs more to get a loaded train rolling again that it does a train of empties.
Wubway traians run at the whim of the dispatcher (Hehehehe)
If a passenger is acting crazy or making threats, I want the crew to be prudent. That gentleman who was 'wronged' was making threats. What if he had the gun he claimed to have? What I want to know is if it's against the law to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, why is it not against the law to yell "gun" on a crowded train?
It probably is against the law. I don't know much about New York's criminal laws, but I do know quite a bit about Connecticut's, from having worked in that state's criminal courts, and most state laws on this topic are pretty similar. At any rate, based on what your friend described (acting agitated, making threats, claiming to have a gun), he probably could have been charged with threatening or disorderly conduct, or whatever the equivalent NYS terms are. It's also possible that the cops could have taken him to a hospital for a psychiatric evaluation.
In New York the charge would be Menacing.
He would have to have actually have displayed the gun for it to be menacing. Threatening to shoot someone without displaying any weapon is harassment.
Thanks for clearing that up Sergeant. We hear so many terms from police and court shows, often times we laymen don't really know what these words we throw around mean, and I include myself in that catagory.
Or it could be that Train Dude's friend was exaggerating a little. It would be interesting to see what notes the police officers took.
If this was transit, the cops would have made the entire call a
10-90Z (Parties gone on arrival). They probably would have had a coffee and a donut to make sure no one returned.
Ron - he was there - you and I were not. I'm repeating what he told me. You are going only on assumptions based on your own personal agenda. If you think that my friend was exaggerating then you are free to go on believing that the woman was a racist and singled out a guy at random to have him arrested for racist motives. I've got no stock in the story.
Your reaction to my post is a little exaggerated, I think. My views are not as you portray them.
But sparring can be fun.
If you're really curious, you COULD request a copy of the police report for the incident. Just a thought since it would appear that we're headed for a philosophical argument rather than a hunt for the facts. That'd do the trick if anyone wants to get the data and report back ...
I don't know if they are public records.
But I wonder if certain MTA folks posting here could arrange to look at them.
Yes they are. The officer's NOTEPAD isn't (needs to be subpoenaed if required at a trial, otherwise off limits) but if a REPORT was filed (and most dispatches do require SOME paperwork) then that would be a public record much like an accident report would be. Reporters once actually walked up to the desk sergeant and requested a peek at the "police blotter" once upon a past when journalists actually WORKED for a story instead of parroting some press release or wire dispatch.
But if there's a desire to get the "official lowdown" since that's important to some here, that'd be the way to settle the argument if it's deemed somehow necessary to do so. :)
How about this one? A while back, when I was still a cop in Queens, we get a radio run to the Bayside LIRR Station on Bell. When we get there a middleaged balding nerdy type with a lisp comes up to the car and says "I'm the one that called. There is a man in the waiting room smoking," I told him you're not allowed to smoke here and he replied "F**k You". No threats though. So I asked, what's the emergency that you called 911 for? He said "That's it, aren't you going to do something?" So we pondered, should I go into the waiting room and tell the offender not to smoke and curse, or should we just curse out the complainant for calling 911 for such BS? Luckily there was a 7-11 on the corner!
I can understand your frustration, Jeffrey, but stop and consider a slightly differently written scenario:
It's cold outside, and a man is smoking a cigar in the LIRR waiting room. Someone with a respiratory problem asks him to put out the cigar and he hurls an expletive. A complaint is made to the ticket clerk.
If the cigar-smoker refuses the ticket-clerk's request to stop smoking, you'd have to show up anyway - to evict the smoker. That's a legitimate call.
If a smoker on a bus is causing discomfort to other passengers, should the other passengers have to get off and wait for the next one? If he refuses to stop smoking, shouldn't a cop come and take him off the bus?
Bottom-line: Maybe it was a BS call, but the appropriate answer is still to politely ask the smoker to put out the cigarette.
>>> So we pondered, should I go into the waiting room and tell the offender not to smoke and curse, or should we just curse out the complainant for calling 911 for such BS? <<<
I certainly understand your frustration at having to respond to such a BS call, which was an abuse of the 911 system, and I assume it was before Rudy's regime, but that's one of the "quality of life" little things that if not enforced lead to lack of respect for laws in general. Out here, in L.A., the police would have done a field interview and run the man's ID for wants and warrants. If he was clean (and the cops had not observed him smoking) he would be given a warning. If they did see him smoking he would get a ticket. Seeing the police in action would act as a warning to everyone in the waiting room that smoking there was not OK.
The police would also warn the complainant that if he called 911 for such a minor complaint again, he would get a ticket also.
Tom
And if it was a Colin Fergusen wannabe, working on his nerve?
-Hank
I had occaision to ride PATCO from Lindenwold to 8th & Market today, whereupon I rode the Ridge Ave Branch to Olney, where my first disappointment of the day occurred when it was announced that the train terminated there. BTW, the BSS is OPTO, but a conductor was in the cab with the motorman, and the conductor operated the doors when the platform was on the left side of the train.
Rather than wait for a local train to Fern Rock, I backtracked and took a local to Pattison Ave. My second disappointment happened nearly three hours later, when the Mutts scored a run in the top of the ninth to beat the Phillies 1-0.
I left when the Mutts scored, since I would already be late for a meeting. The BSS train left Pattison terminal from the southbound track and must have been doing 40 or 45 when it crossed over to the northbound track. John Qdash would love the speed reached on the way to Oregon Ave, the first northbound stop.
Then PATCO back to Lindenwold, photographing stacks of concrete ties slowly being installed under PATCO's rails.
The meeting was at historic Pemberton (Burlington County) station (PRR), where the only person under 30 showed me the photos that he took today of the concrete ties next to PATCO's ROW. Jersey Mike and I took the same pictures today!
The New York Legislature did not give CSX the tax relief it was seeking, so the railroad will not undertake $15 million in track improvements necessary for high-speed service between New York City and Albany. Gov. George Pataki's budget had proposed a 45% rollback in railroad property taxes over seven years, the Times-Union of Albany reported. But the state Legislature's budget, approved Thursday, didn't include the tax break. So CSX says it will continue its federal lawsuit against the state's property tax structure, and that it won't make signal and track improvements on its ex-Conrail Hudson Line. The improvements would allow Amtrak Empire Corridor trains to run at speeds of up to 125 MPH. An independent study released earlier this year found that New York state taxes railroad property at rates up to 26 percent higher than neighboring states. Conrail typically paid more property taxes in New York state than on the rest of its system combined.
Yep, the official Newt Gingrich railroad has already told us to go to hell, isn't going to allow Amtrak to run any longer to the new Rensselaer railroad station and has pretty much stopped all maintenance in the state. They've threatened to close Selkirk (this is going to be good) and tear up the rails.
While I agree that they should have gotten a compromise settlement, they decided to threaten the politicians. Bad move. And no, they were never going to get 100% and they demanded 100% or nothing. Looks like they have their answer.
EMIINENT DOMAIN!!!
An independent study released earlier this year found that New York state taxes railroad property at rates up to 26 percent higher than neighboring states. Conrail typically paid more property taxes in New York state than on the rest of its system combined.
It hardly sounds as if CSX can be blamed for being angry with the state.
Hey, New York is a high tax state. There are many advantages to doing business here, they obviously are making money and could not totally leave NY. New York is one of the states that more or less takes its responsiblity to look out for its citizen somewhat seriously. I support public transit better than most, as well as social programs. I am speaking relatively here!
Amusing how Canadian Pacific (CPRail) isn't jumping up and down whining - taxes in New York are CHEAP compared to Canada and they're STILL profitable.
CSX: Don't let the door hit you on the ass, I'm sure CP would be HAPPY to take over your trackage ...
However, consider this: railroads must maintain their ROWs and pay taxes on them. Trucks get their ROWs maintained for them by taxes. This is one of the ways that the government ran the railroads into the ground.
The state should make them a deal -- allow half their ROW capacity to be used by other railroads at regulated rates relative to the cost of maintaining the system, and the ROW itself is tax free.
Ask yourself this though - why isn't CP jumping up and down? I won't argue that CSX isn't entitled to some relief ... SOME. But remember that every "tax cut" for some means a HIKE for you. I never reproduced. I bristle at paying school taxes in excess of $3,000 every year. But I gird up and pay them because SOMEBODY has to. I'm not going to pay CSX's taxes too.
I *know* that if CSX pulled up stakes, CP would take most the trackage. And pay up.
The former D&H line down to Sunbury is CP's ONLY gateway into the majour markets of the east coast, specifically Philly, Baltimore, Wilmington, Washington and Norfolk (and of course their related industrial regions). It is also their only gateway into the Pennsylvanian steel and coal regions. That line would be profitable if NY State erected little toll booths every mile along the line.
---
However, consider this: railroads must maintain their ROWs and pay taxes on them. Trucks get their ROWs maintained for them by taxes. This is one of the ways that the government ran the railroads into the ground.
---
The same is true in Canada and the big railways (CN, CP) aren't happy about it and there has been some lobbying for change. Also, there is another railway and tax situation which is present in Canada which may exist in the United States as well, surrounding fuel taxes. When railways buy diesel fuel, they pay fuel taxes pretty much like anybody else and some of that money, I don't know how much, is used to pay for road construction and maintainance which obviously only benefits the trucking companies who are their competition. Some lobbying has been quietly going on about this too. Incidentally, as a fan of electric traction, the only 100% clear cut way that I can see for the railways to get out of the fuel tax connundrum without having the government(s) make concessions would be to electrify...
-Robert King
In the US, clear diesel fuel is taxed. Off-the-road fuel (used by farmers, railroads, home heating etc ect) is dyed a pinkish color.
If you are found with that stuff (which also stains the pistons) in your car or truck, you be in big trouble.
Actually we *do* use the OTR fuel in our ambulance (a quasi-municipal vehicle) because the only place where we can fuel 27/7 is a farm depot that does not sell over the road (taxed) fuel.
Elias
I don't see why CSX even ownes that segment of the Hudson Line. Its litterally a line to nowhere as their ownership ends at Po-burg. After that its as much of a freight line as the NEC is currently. CSX's big Hudson Valley route is accross the river on the West Bank. In fact its always been this way. The east bank had the passenger and the west bank had the freight. The only freight going in/out of NYC along that line is mixed merchanside local-delivery stuff and mulicipal garbage.
I'll do both messages here ... if CSX wants to pull out, then there's VALUE to CP if CSX wishes to sell/abandon the line. And CP *was* interested in the Gonerail properties but then we'd be hearing all of that "foreign ownership" nonsense. Fact is CP has taken much better care of their facilities than the former Guilford did and the employees are considerably happier. CSX acquired a Cadillac and is turning it slowly into a Yugo.
Like I said, the railroads *DO* deserve a break but not as much as they're asking for. While I can see the argument that building high speed rail that would increase the value of the railroad without any need for the railroad's normal operations to do the upgrade and that the railroad shouldn't have to pay a penalty for doing so is valid, it's not like they're not getting more reliability for it also.
And I also agree that the airlines and bus companies are NOT paying their fair share either. Perhaps we can raise the taxes on airlines and bus companies to offset a break for CSX. But if they're going to act like petulant children throwing a tantrum, then they can go to hell.
And what about churches and other religious institutions? They don't pay property taxes at all, do they?
- Lyle Goldman
Nor does government or schools. Let's tax them too. :)
Once again, I'm not saying that CSX isn't entitled to a reduction or at the VERY least "held harmless" for improvements that don't offer them any benefits. What I'm objecting to is the arrogant behavior and general snottiness of CSX with their "all or nothing" approach. THAT is why they didn't get it.
I agree wholeheartedly that if the state wants them to make improvements to their property that they should not be penalized for it. The legislature AGREED with that too. But they want out of taxes that they DO owe and even THERE the legislature was going to cut them some sausage. But they wanted MORE.
Now one should ask what about OUR taxes? Anybody going to cut that? :)
Nor does government or schools. Let's tax them too. :)
Taxing government would cause the money to end up on an infinite loop and be lost forever, so it really wouldn't change much :-)
Everything else should be taxed.
Churches don't pay taxes because unlike industries they don't serve a productive purpose (as in making a profit). A church doesn't exist to take donations, it exists for other reasons and it requires donations to stay alive.
Schools should make a profit, it would be much better than the current overfunded yet simultaneously underfunded system.
As for non-profit organizations like charities, it's all a big scam. When you donate money, somebody's getting paid rent and somebody's being paid a salary. Unlike a church, a charitable organization exists to make money like any other profitable organization. If nobody paid into it, it wouldn't exist.
As for government, the federal government should pay taxes to state and local governments for land that it owns that isn't in DC or in an outlying territory. Maybe that will stop some of the fiscal blackmail that the federal government uses to pass otherwise unconstitutional laws (like the now repealed national speed limit).
Hey guy! Don't mind my rhetoric there, I was playing circular logic Lionel-style. Woo-woo! :)
You make an iteresting point about the federal government passing unconsitutional laws. I guess a good number of people do not know that the federal government is (or at least was suppose to be) significantly limited as to what type of laws it can impose. The power to enact a law must be specifically given to the federal government in the Constituion. The way that they have been able to pass the infinate types and numbers of laws they have is via two routes 1) some VERY creative interperitations of the "inter-state commerce" clause of the constitution. The federal gov't has the right to "regulate interstate commerce". A multitude of laws that can only marginally be contorted into that catagory have been passed over the years. And iterestinly enough, upheld by Supreme Courts of both liberal and conservative judges over the years. The second method is outright bribery. They don't actually pass a law mandating a given thing, they just say that any state that does not enact such and such a law (the 55 mph speed limit and the current push to lower the DWI threshhold fall into this one) will lose x dollars of federal aid. Now as a far left winger, I generally favor federal action, but I must admit, some of these methods of getting things done are quesitonable at best.
"Now as a far left winger, I generally favor federal action, but I must admit, some of these methods of getting things done are quesitonable at best"
Now as a ar right winger, I generally oppose federal action, but I must admit, some things *are* truly needed, and are of beneift to the strength of the society.
Elias
And as a radical fundamentalist middle of the roader, I congratulate you both. Now if only we could get the sausage works to comprehend. :)
> as a far left winger, I
You're a far left winger? You're not a Communist, are you? (:-)
- Lyle Goldman, Liberal
I'm sorry I implied that you might be a Communist. You must have been extremely insulted by that insinuation. Again, my apologies.
- Lyle Goldman
Why is it an insult to be called a Communist, it's just ridiculous.
I think that being called a Nazi should still be considered an insult though, because only crazy people are Nazis.
I didn't mean it's ridiculous to BE a communist (it is, but that's not what I was saying), but rather it's ridiculous to consider it an insult.
> because only crazy people are Nazis.
That's the only reason why it's an insult to be called a Nazi? Not because of all the horrible torture they inflicted on millions of innocent people?
You know, some people would consider it an insult to be called a pig!
- Lyle Goldman
Railroads actually do get some tax benefit because state taxing authorities centrally assess their operating property. This saves them from having to deal with the assessment authorities in each jurisdiction through which their lines pass, which would be a huge administrative burden.
Exactly!
It is amazing how corporations are always looking for a hand out (I call it corporate welfare, they call it tax relief). You make an excelent point, in Canada taxes are significantly higher than in the USA, yet the economy funcitons, people have jobs, and they get something we can only dream of, single payer medical coverage for everyone. I think the key point here is that if you see what you are getting for your tax dollars (in Canada, the national medical insurance program) you are less likely to complain about the taxes. In the US, I think people see (or at least perceive) less benefit for that tax dollar.
I have a feeling, no hard evidence, that things like gov't subsidy of mass transit is viewed in a somewaht more favorable light today than it was 5 or 10 years ago (at least in more progressive regions like NY, New England etc). Transit is the only viable alternative from getting people from point A to point B. In places like NYC, there just is no more room to build highways. And in NYC, since the fare has been stable for a significant period, people are seeing value in the fare, actually with the metrocard discounts, the fare has gone done recently. Also, as much as we like to complain, the service is signifcantly better than 10-15 years ago (never mind the nightmare years when cars were rolling billboards for graffeti artists and getting a 10 car train together may have ment mixing 2 or 3 car classes). People appreciate service, again, they see value for their dollar, both fare dollar and tax dollar.
We have had some interesting debates on other forums (non-rail) about taxes, and people are very well divided, though it does make intersting exchange as long as people refrain from attacking one another.
Health care in Canada is not all that great when compared to this country, but with these managed health care schemes, we are going downhill fast. It is a disservice to call it "Health Insurance". Insurance is something you buy, and hope that you *NEVER* have to collect on it. I mean: who wnats a house fire, or a huge liability suit. With Health Care Plans on the ohter hand, everybody is looking to have all of thier mindical expenses covered for the cheapest policy they can find. IT IS NOT INSURANE: It is a planned payments scheme. And it is thus wehiter it is govt or privately funded.
Taxes are supposed to provide those services (including transsit - to stay on topic) that we cannot otherwise provide for ourselves as individuals.
If you want more (health care, law inforcement, education, transit or whatever) the governments involved need to collect more taxes. Not at all a bad thing in and of itself. If you want lower taxes, you in turn get less services. But to the selfish let me suggest that your world does not end with the walls of your living room. The whole city is your living room, and all who live in it are your family (or guests).
I would favor mega cuts in the tax rate, but EVERYONE then uses the SHORT FORM with no special intersts or breaks for every industry, spliter group or scheme that can front a Lobbyist.
Property Taxes (such as what set off this string) are quite archaic and out of place in an urban society. They are a reflection on the time when only the landed GENTry could vote. There should be a way to soften the blow of property taxes across the board, yet on the other hand real property is a limited resource and the maintaince of a title to it ought to be taxed in some way.
Corporate taxes are the most troublesome. I have never even figgured out *how* you can tax a corporation. Enron claimed huge profits on one side and banruptcy on the other, and what part do they pay taxes on? Only Enron gets to decide. I'd make corporate tax about one half of one percent (maybe even less) on ALL GROSS INCOME before expenses. Taxing thier porfits such as we try to do now is nothing but an exercise in smoke and mirrors anyway. Besides, every penny that a corporation pays in taxes, they have to collect from *you* it's customer.
The root of this is the nature of money itself: It is NOTHING if it is not they work and time and sweat of the persons earning and spending it: You cannot send *money* to wherever and expect people to be able to eat it, or to use it as medicine or what ever. Its value is only what you put into it.
It is the same with a city. It's value is only what you put into it.
Elias
Pretty good observations. I'd have to say that the most sensible taxing scheme is the "value added tax" found in most European countries. There's nothing really like it anywhere in the United States, although Washington's business and occupation tax comes fairly close. It's an idea that deserves, at the least, careful consideration.
Value added equals wages plus profits. As such, it is little different from an income tax, but collected at the establishment level rather than from people.
Going from an income tax system to a VAT would be an economic disaster. The tax is added to prices under a VAT, and deducted from income in an income tax. Let's say the switch is January 1, 2003. From not until then, people would have an incentive to borrow and spend like crazy at the lower prices. Then suddenly prices would rise 22 percent: take home pay would rise, but people would need to pay off the debts, and will have already bought all they could. The result -- a demand-based depression.
You'd have to phase in the switch over 40 years. I don't think it's work the effort.
Econocrats love sales tax/VAT schemes because they are regressive. To them, labor is of little value and the only ones who deserve favorable tax treatmemt are those who seek to earn income thru investment of capital. As for the peons who work for a living, they can eat cake because they can't afford to fund university economics professorships.
You hit the nail on the head there! Income taxes are the most fair because they are devised to tax based on the ability to pay! Property tax and sales tax hit the lower income people much harder!
Oh Oh Piggo...
looks like they suckered you on that one.
In the abstract, a sales tax and an income tax would be the same.
You earn $10,000, you spend $10,000... you pay 10$ tax ($1,000), what's the difference.
Property taxes are not levied on the poor because by definition (the old definition that was in use when the first tax laws were written) did not own property. They paid no taxes. (of course they didn't vote either).
I presume that you are espousing the *Graduated Income Tax*. Is it fair that you pay %15 and I pay 25%? (Well, actually I don't *pay* any income tax, because I don't earn any income, but that wasn't my point)
Suppose you earn $10,000, and pay 15% ($1,500).
Suppose I earn $100,000 (don't I wish) and pay 15% ($15,000)
and then suppose we are each married with two kids, a cat and a dog, and so have the same $2,400 deduction.
I guess that still seems fair.
Suppose that I earn $1,000,000 (*15%) = $150,000 in taxes.
Still seems pretty fair to me, so why would you want to want to charge him 25% just cause he earns more money?
Actually, I believe that the *Graduated Income Tax* will always remain because it is politically impossible to change it.
Now Finnally we get to the nub of the issue:
The richer they get, the LESS taxes they seem to pay!
Exemptions Deductions Tax Breaks etc etc.....
*THAT* is the real #u@$up with our tax system. Special breaks for special people. (Well, ok I *am* special, but I don't get any breaks)
So the tax rate, (and the circumlocutions about it being fair) are a FARCE!
I say, charge everyone the same 15% (OOO Rhe Rich are Getting a BREAK) ~Well BULLSHIT! Charge them 15% and EVERYONE USES THE SHORT FORM! NO BREAKS, no DEDUCTIONS, no Exemptions no NOTHING!
15% flat tax (after the normal standard family exemptions) no breaks or excuses.
Only then will the rich *ever* pay their full share. Untill then they will skate on their tax breaks, and leave you holding the sack and telling everyone how *fair* the Graduated Income Tax is.
{/soapbox}
The preceeding political pontification is for discussion purposes only and is not to be taken seriously by any who would take offence at it.
: )
Elias
(All Aboard) [just to stay on topic]
Going from an income tax system to a VAT would be an economic disaster. The tax is added to prices under a VAT, and deducted from income in an income tax. Let's say the switch is January 1, 2003. From not until then, people would have an incentive to borrow and spend like crazy at the lower prices. Then suddenly prices would rise 22 percent: take home pay would rise, but people would need to pay off the debts, and will have already bought all they could. The result -- a demand-based depression.
You'd have to phase in the switch over 40 years. I don't think it's work the effort.
Instituting a VAT would require a lengthy phase-in period, for the reasons you cite, but the period would not have to be absurdly long. Two or three years might be enough if there's careful planning.
Realistically, I doubt we'll ever see a real VAT in the United States. A national sales tax is a remote but not nonexistent possibility, particularly in light of the standardization movement in which most states are participating.
(Realistically, I doubt we'll ever see a real VAT in the United States. A national sales tax is a remote but not nonexistent possibility, particularly in light of the standardization movement in which most states are participating.)
When you collect all the taxes at the final stage (ie. final sale) that than at each step of production, you invite a huge black market. It isn't as easy as some make it sound. And isn't the same political party that wants a national sales tax the same one that favors keeping it easy to evade sales taxes via internet sales?
>>>And isn't the same political party that wants a national sales tax the same one that favors keeping it easy to evade sales taxes via internet sales?<<<
A most interesting (and true) observation
Peace,
ANDEE
And isn't the same political party that wants a national sales tax the same one that favors keeping it easy to evade sales taxes via internet sales?
The sales tax simiplification project is so far a mainly nonpartisan movement. Internet sales actually are the whole point behind the project. By making all state sales taxes consistent (right now there are many differences), the states could develop a uniform system for taxing Internet sales and therefore help eliminate the disadvantage faced by traditional retailers.
The Canadian economy's been doing very well:
- Very narrowly avoided going into recession over the last year. I think the American economy actually did go into recession briefly but I'm not sure.
- Canadian government has been running a budget surplus and the figure of $10 billion has been mentioned; the American government is running a deficit.
- The Bank Of Canada has started to raise interest rates while Alan Greenspan has indicated that it is still to early to do so in the United States.
- People do have jobs - I start work on Monday! :)
With respect to the public health care system, to give it a more appropriate name, it is actually in better shape than it's made out to be by the media, action groups and the politicians, nearly all of whom have various interests in improving it. I don't have the necessary information to compare it to what's found in the United States but Elias should consider the fact that it is accessible which is crucially important. Health care could be the best in the world in any country where you have to pay for it, but if it's priced out of the range of most people, it becomes an acedemic difference wheather or not it's better or worse if hardly anybody can make use of it.
Another thing I like about Canada is that the government run passenger rail service has a neat name (Via) as opposed to something boring like 'Amtrak' or 'British Rail' etc. of that sort. :)
-Robert King
"but Elias should consider the fact that it is accessible which is crucially important."
I'll Agree to that, but there are very long waits for elective procedures in Canada. We have a man from Canada with us now, and he was impressed at how quickly you could be seen by a doctor here. You can schedule most surgeries with in a week.
This too is accessibility.
In a perfect world, I'd require employers to provide health care benefits to at least the level of a standard mimimum package. (An employer is responsible to provide for every need of his employees, and he does this by paying a wage or salary... so the health component is a part of that package.) If a person is on welfare, that package needs to be provided by the state as part of the Welfare Package. Finally, I'd make it the responsibility of the School Districts to provide the health package to children of school age. Yes, that comes back to local taxes (property or renters) but what the heck, it needs a base somewhere.
Nah... in a PERFECT world all people would earn enough money to provide for their own needs in a respectable way.
Elias
AND CSX did not consider these "facts" when it fought to buy part of Conrail? For a railroad run by beancounters I am amazed.
CSX is playing some big cards here. And so they should -- NY legislators should go to hell. Railroad property should not be taxed at all...
we have a basic disagreement here. Real estate taxes are a long time fixture of th US economic system. If you wish to suggest a different revenue stream which takes "improvements" and "land values" into account in order to fund public functions, fine. Meanwhile exempting RR's from a tax which every other business and residential landowner pays seems inequitable to me. BTW we are revisiting here a fight from the late fifties when the RR's were also lobbying for discounts on real estate taxes. Maybe we should do a creative scheme where maintaining top category (by FRA stadards) bi directionally signalled double track gets a discount over single, dark, etc.
Unfail property taxes is what drove the railroads bankrupt and that made them unable to compete with trucks. It is why railroads are so hot to rip up lines and single track. All property, weather it is making any revenue or not is taxed at the same oppressive rates. So the railroads give up and rip out the tracks, killing any future hope of rail revival. Trucks don't pay property taxes on the highways they drive on, railroads shoudln't have to do the same. The RR property taxes are an antiquated practive of the pre-1920's when RR's actually made a great deal of money and essentially had a monopony on transporation. Today the cash cow is old and dying. The state should stop trying to milk it.
On the other hand, all roads should be tolled and all roads should be subject to property taxes.
(On the other hand, all roads should be tolled and all roads should be subject to property taxes.)
That's an alternative. If that had been the case, and private companies had built private roads from the start:
1) You'd have had fewer exists, where the tolls were.
2) You'd have had concentrated development around those exits.]
3) Space on the roads would be rationed, with company run buses on the roads.
In short, you'd have had a rubber-tired transit-based development pattern rather than what we have now.
Problem with realestate taxes is that they are levey county by county and town by town. There *is* no *state* realestate tax for state legislators to diddle with.
If they are private property then maybe the should pay the correct takes on it. If they are not taxed, do they then become state property? Does the state become liable for accidents, and other things?
In Pennsylvnia (last summer) I heard that NS was not letting people cross their ROWs to go fishing in the river. Well, DUH! the ROW is hard against the river, and there is no other way to get to the water.
So now we loose the river as a recreatinal outlet?
OK, cut the bullshit (I can say that 'cause we got bulls in our back yard). They need favorable taxes because they work in the public good, but with those favorable taxes come concessions from them. Most Favored Train status for our commuter trains, needed upgrades built expidiciously, but with the costs spread fairly. Access to rivers and other public features adjacent to rail lines, albeit with necessary precautions and safeties.
Eminent Domain sounds nice, but it is not practical, since it also entails reimbursing people for the conficated property. I doubt if NYS can afford to buy a railroad.
Elias
I doubt that NYS would want to buy a railroad. what would they do with it?
NYS/Amtrak already ownes several railroad lines. They own Metro-North up to Dover Plains and Po-burg, they own the Post Road Branch and several miles of the Chicago Line.
I do agree that RR property should not be taxed.
If they treaten to pull out, then apply emenint doamin at once,
and because they were going to pull out, they obviously valued their property as zero, which is what they should get in an emenint domain takeover.
I think they'd better talk.
Problem is: legislators can't listen.
Elias
Let me get this straight: With the massive rollback in "rail" estate taxes that Pataki was proposing (tailor made towards CSX and NS, I suppose), CSX would be encouraged to improve its main line from NYC to Albany just so that passenger rail would eventually benefit off of its trouble. This, as CSX would very much like to see Amtrak out of its way on its southern (near home base) lines.
Is it just me, or do I see an oxymoron here?
CSX has REFUSED to allow NYS to spend ,money to double track the 'branch' from Selkirk to Albany-Rensalaear and to allow signal upgrades for higher speed operation unless they get a discount on their real estate taxes. in private affairs this would be called extortion.
In policial science, it is known as "legislative lobbying."
right and bothe are "RICO" behavior in my view
Hey, it's CSX's property, they can choose to build or not to build what they want.
True, but there is also something called eminant domain. If a private interest is standing in the way of public good, the public good can take presidence.
Now I don't advocate that in this case. But I do feel that CXS should be a good corporate citizen (wow, talk about oxymorons) and work with the state on a workable compromise. As Selkirk pointed out, they demanded 100% compliance with their demands, anything less and they kill the entire deal. It soulds like the behavior of a 4 year old child.
The public can take precidence with fair and just compensation to CSX. CSX refusing to act in the absence of this compensation is perfectly w/in their rights.
And wouldn't you do the same? If you owned a piece of property with a small house on it and NYS came along and said "We'll pay to build a much bigger building here, and then adjust your taxes accordingly.", wouldn't you tell them to take a hike?
Freight railroads such as CSX do something that NO other private business does, they provide their own transport infrastructure. and even if passenger transportation is not conducted using these faciities, there should be tax relief. If passenger trains are run by a public agency, CSX should be paid subsidies to cover it's marginal cost of such operations and they should be reimbursed for track improvements and additional passing sidings made necessary by passenger operation. Any rail advocate worth his salt knows that the railroads were SCREWED into the ground in many ways but most galling was the fact that property tax is paid to counties who plow that money into road construction and maintenance. While reregulation of all modes of transportation is worth looking at, ALL MODES SHOULD BE TREATED EQUALLY by the government.
a private residence is a bit different from a "public utility." CSX as sucessor to Conrail to PC is by law required to allow ATK to negotiate to operate passenger trains and under 403b states like NY can also pony up money to imptove trackage to facillitate operation of these passenger trains FOR WHICH the railroads are paid (as much as their negoptiators hold out for). 'Course whenever the CSX's get their tax payments lowered, there is less public money to pay CSX for such track usage. And I remind you, no one forced CSX to buy 42 & of Conrail--they fought very hard trying to get it all. So now they are whining about the taxes on the most important segment--the only region CSX did not already reach was Buffalo-Albany-NYC and Albany-Boston.
Just got an update that the R-33/36 Redbirds for Sunday's March of Dimes Excursion WILL NOT be going for scrapping, as was previously noted. After returning to 207th they will be heading BACK into regular service on the Flushing Line.
This is GOOD NEWS indeed. It would seem that these Redbirds ain't being sunk right away...
Dang! There goes my BVE gear. :)
Thanks for clarifying that. At least they've been saved, for now...
-Stef
Yeah, maybe that means a certain organization might have the chance to acquire one of those R33s???? ;-D
(Stef, I know what you're thinking buddy -- let's NOT post the answer here as we wouldn't want 'reprecussions').
Lol! I will not comment on the matter.........
-Stef
Thanks, Stef....
""YEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"".....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
oh happy day !! keep as many of em all thru this summer !!!!
WWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE......!!!
man dat's good newz !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I take back what I said about singing "Goodbye, Redbirds" - for now.
Dang - what am I gonna do with all this SCUBA gear now??
--Mark
Doug: It might be good news but doesn't that cancel out the second part of the fantrip where we all get to ride the barge out onto the High Seas and watch the Redbirds being committed to the Deep Sixes.
That was the part that SEA Beach Fred was looking forward too.
Best Wishes,
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, but it'd be bad news for any railfans also on the barge as they'd get dumped along with the cars! ;-D
Yeah... but they are already *used* to the foam.
: ) ELIAS
Rim Shot! LOL!
You beat me to the rim shot button, Doug.:-)
So we're stuck with trains with no air conditioning this summer?
- Lyle Goldman
I noticed that Brooklyn-bound C trains join the A track south of Canal St. stop, but the C tracks continue heading south. Someone on straphangers said that these tracks were meant for the IND second system and would have gone across Worth St., crossed the East River, and ended up at the S. 4th St. station in Brooklyn. Is that the case? If so, how far does that trackage go?
That was indeed the intention. Just imagine it...
This is a C train to Havemayer / South 4th Sts...
South of Canal St, the local tracks take 2 routes:
1) The s/b local track goes under the 2 express tracks, comes up between the n/b local and express tracks and continues to the WTC stop currently in use by the E line.
2) Just as the s/b local track south of Canal St goes under the express tracks, there is a turn-off for another line. This one was meant to transfer with the Houston St line at East B'way. Go under the East River. Connect with the Houston St line coming out of 2 Ave and transfer with the crosstown line at Broadway.
I'll let someone else talk about where the line would go after that.
But the proposed lines didn't go too far. South of Canal St, it was just a heading in the wall. 2 Ave on the F there is about 200 feet of roadbed before it meets a wall. At East B'way and S 4th St Just enough space carved out of the earth for the station shell to be. At East B'way there is a giant mezzazine where the station was supposed to have been. Just the space. Nothing else.
I walked down there once about 12 years ago. At the other end of the Broadway/G Station from the token booth there is a giant stairway that goes on to a short passageway to something huge. I couldn't make out what it was because my walking around was stirring up dust that hasn't been disturbed in years. I took a picture of the passageway. But it was like a grey vanishing point with dust around it. Of course you needed a strong flashlight! The area has been claimed by different departments who have their offices there.
I'm planning to ride on the system today. If anyone wants to look for me I'll be wearing my "W" shirt and I might even be on the "W" train itself. Since it is warm out I'm not planning to wear my hood unless I'm in a freezing cold over air conditioned car.
#3 West End Jeff
Now Jeff if you were going to be in town tomorrow we could go out to Coney Island, ride the Cyclone and eat at Nathan's. We're going to miss one another by one day. Too bad.
Hey Fred, did you know the Cyclone supposedly once cured a mute person?
You are correct that the "Cyclone" cured a mute person. After he got off he said "I feel sick!" I wonder if that mute person took the subway to Coney Island. He might have.
#3 West End Jeff
Alstom will build the next order of cars for WMATA
Interesting! I believe the NYC subway cars cost about $1.25 million per copy. This contract (basic) is for about $2.3 million per, if the option goes through, it would be $1.7 million per (more or less).
I guess this is an example of economy of scale!
NYC Transit's R-143 series, ordered in early 1999, goes for about $1.9 million per unit for a 60-foot car. WMATA's cars are being ordered three years later and are 75 feet long.
David
Is that correct? Are the R-143's really 1.9 million per copy? I was certain it was closer to 1.2 or 1.3. Maybe my figure was for the 142? Even so, it find it hard to believe that the 143 could be that much more expensive. But again, I'm going by memory and I'm sure you must have better data than me. Surprising.
The base order for R-143s was $190 million for 100 cars. That's $1.9 million a car. The R-142 and R-142A, ordered a year and a half earlier, smaller, and without CBTC equipment, cost less: $1.45 billion for 1,080 cars (680 Bombardier R-142 and 400 Kawasaki R-142A), which works out to a bit over $1.3 million a car.
David
WMATA should have no problems with the Alstoms. They already have experince with "new tech" and AC traction, so all the bugs were worked out a long time ago.
That's strange. My subject line from a post I posted last week appeared instead of the subject line from this thread.
It is interesting to see whether Alstom will use the existing Bombardier plant in NY or set up their own plant.
Chaohwa
Oops, I should have posted here.
-----------------------------------
It is interesting to see whether Alstom will use the existing Bombardier plant in NY or set up its own plant.
Chaohwa
The contradiction in the last paragraph's a laugh!
-Robert King
This mornign I saw at least three or four MARC electric locomotives in the Amtrak yard at 30th Street Station here in Philadelphia. Is MARC one of those commuter systems that Amtrak runs under contract from the local transit agency? I'm guessing so, as some of the locomotives were heading trains of Amtrak cars.
Mark
Must be for the three day weekend "fear to fly" crowd. Just like Thanksgiving.
If they are HHP-8 locomotives, they are being tested before MARC accepts them.
Chaohwa
I'm not so knowlegeable on the equipment...Are HHP-8s double ended with rounded aero noses that look like the noses of Acela locomotives?
That's what these looked like.
Mark
Yes, here's a photo:
Amtrak HHP-8
Yep, those MARC locomotives were HHP-8s, and I see your photo was taken in the same train yard where I spotted them.
Mark
LOL... rounded aero noses? These trainbuilders are up to no good again. Must be Bombardier trying to flogg some aero noses of the regional jets they can't sell.
AEM-7 <--- no need for an aero nose but still achieves better performance
Any word what type of rolling stock will be brought to this conference (8 to 13 Jun) other than T-16 and T-2000 for show and tell?
Sorry if this repeats some previous discussion here... I saw the announcement on the subject a while ago, now it's gone, although the CERA announcement still mentions the trip. Is it not sold out, canceled or anything? If I just show up @ Whitehall on Monday 10:30 with some portraits of presidents in my pocket, am I going to make it? :-)
Thank you!
From the CERA web site.....
TRIP to NYC
CERA invites members and guests to become real Brooklyn trolley dodgers when it hosts an extended Memorial Day weekend of events. CERA is sponsoring its first inspection trip of electrical rail lines around metropolitan New York City.
The confirmed sequence of events is as follows:
Friday May 24, 2002
Afternoon:
Tour the Brooklyn Heritage Trolley Project through the streets of the Red Hook section of Brooklyn. Ride an 1897 Oslo single truck tram and the last PCC built by Pullman.
Evening:
Regular May meeting of CERA at NYCTA training center in Brooklyn. Program: The future for rapid transit in New York City by John Gaul, General Manager of IRT Division
Saturday, May 25, 2002
Morning:
Inspect the facilities of the Newark City Subway.
Afternoon:
Ride and inspect the facilities of the Hudson Bergen light rail line.
Evening:
Special May meeting of CERA at NYCTA training center in Brooklyn. Program: A photo essay of historical rapid transit in New York City by John Pappas - Senior Director of Schedules at NYCTA.
Sunday, May 26, 2002
A charter on the elevated structures of The Bronx with a train consisting of a single unit Redbirds with opening windows.
Monday, May 27, 2002
A charter of the elevated structures of Brooklyn and Queens with a train consisting of either Lo-V or Triplex equipment.
Tuesday, May 28, 2002
Tour the Shore Line Trolley Museum. Ride a Brooklyn PCC, a Third Avenue Trolley, A Connecticut semi-convertible, and more.
Cost--Confirmed
Option A: $450.00 includes participation in all events, a one-week NYCTA riding pass plus 4 nights lodging at the Brooklyn Marriott in downtown Brooklyn (based on double occupancy). Single occupancy is $320 additional.
Option B: $130.00 includes participation in all events and a one-week NYCTA riding pass (no hotel accommodations)
Trip flyers were mailed to all CERA members on February 11, 2002 . If you are not a member, email us and we will send you a flyer or you can send in your check for either option. If you select Option A double occupancy, you may specify a roommate preference. If you do not specify a preference, the CERA trip director will use his best judgment to match roommates.
The deadline for hotel reservations is May 6, 2002. CERA will mail confirmation, tickets, passes, maps and schedule of departure locations and departure times for events after May 8, 2002.
Questions??? Please call Dan Joseph at 847-869-7582 (evenings and weekends)
According to a certain BERA member who works for the TA that will be on both trips wearing his saftey vest, show up with cash and you can get on.
I just may do that. It's 10:30 at Whitehall St. Correct?
Bob -- hope you can make it! I might run into you at Prospect Park...
Lou, I'll be there in some form or another on Monday. Might bike-ride over to Prospect Park or Franklin/Fulton stations to position myself for some station-side photography when the D-Types are expected along the Franklin Shuttle ROW.
As I understand it, the old, original Brighton Line's route to Coney Island will be re-created by having the consist make it's way down from Franklin/Fulton via the MALBONE TUNNEL then go express to CI. Sounds like that will be the highlight of the trip! Looking forward to it!
I hope Luciano isn't the train operator!
The NEWS has screwed up yet again! There's a beach guide in today's issue that lists all metro area beaches and their events, parking, public transportation et al. We're advised that you can take the B, D, F, N, Q, W and Z trains to Coney Island!
OK, the B and D stopped going to Brooklyn last July. The N was cut back one stop to 86th during the winter. When did the Z EVER go there?! That's a new one on me!!
Less blatant is advising those going to Jacob Riis Park to take the A train to Rockaway Park for the Q35 bus. That's only possible four times every weekday afternoon.
Even if the NEWS people aren't transit buffs (and it sure looks like they're not!), how hard it is to check a subway map?
What a valuable service they've provided!
It isn't referred to as the Daily Snooze for nothing. But all of the media are grossly ignorant (if not downright stupid) when it comes to the subways. I feel sorry for riders who don't know any better.
We're advised that you can take the B, D, F, N, Q, W and Z trains to Coney Island!
And it's hard to say what kind of a map they are even looking at. The B and W NEVER went to Coney Island at the same time, so it's not even like they are looking at an old map!
i saw ralph penza and his channel 4 newscrew filming today on the platform of the 8th ave line lex av station. he started to ask the conductor something on camera but the train started moving and he couldn't finish, i couldn't hear what he asked him. i assume he was asking about the current supposed threat to mass transit.
On weekdays, isn't that the 6th Ave line also??
i forgot that the v also stops there.
By the way, BOTH escalators at the Lexington Ave end of the station (the only ones that connect with the 6) were out of service at 8AM this morning. I saw one elderly man who had to rest about halfway up - he couldn't climb any further. I hope he made it. What I don't understand is that these escalators are practically brand new (they were installed only 2 or 3 years ago).
It's absolutely ridiculous with the escalators. It's the one worst and most annoying thing when riding the subway.
Nobody should be forced to climb out of deep bore stations like 53/Lex. There should be Transit division PD on scene at every major deep bore station with start keys in hand, to get the escalators going again (which were probably stopped by troublemaking kids).
Also PD should arrest these kids lock em up for 3 days and fine then $500.
Stopping an escalator is vandalism and we oughtta be burning rear ends (figuratively)of those who vandalize the NYC Subway system. Vandalism is still happening, in other forms, not graffitti.
If it's a mechanical problem, the TA should be able to fix them. I don't see shopping mall escalators with so many problems.
If someone has a heart attack climbing those stairs, NYCT is setting themselves up for lawsuits.
Access for disabled and the eldery into the NYC Subway system is still pathetic. The news should've covered that!
Ten years ago, I made an Employee Suggestion that (what were then)Transit Police Officers be trained in escalator restarting procedures and that they be issued escalator keys. The response was that if an escalator is shut down by vandals, it must be inspected by a trained mechanic before it can be restarted. The only personnel allowed to restart an escalator were (and I believe still are) Station Supervisors.
I still think the idea makes sense.
David
"The only personnel allowed to restart an escalator were (and I believe still are) Station Supervisors. "
So, Station a Station Supervisor there, as well as a cop.
While the Station Supervisor is restarting the escalator, the cop is aresting the miscreant.
Coat the emergency switches with a flourscent goo that cannot easily be washed or wiped off. That way the culpret marks himself for easy identification.
Yes a minimum of a $500.00 fine and a minimum of three days in the slammer seems appropriate.
Elias
And escalator banks are obvious candidates for video surveillance.
Someone mentioned that shopping mall escalators have less problems. I recall reading the problems they had with the 63rd/Lex escalators. These *were* department store elevators, vs. the heavy duty things you get elsewhere, as with 53rd/5th. They were under warranty, and the manufacturer (Westinghouse, as I recall), was not too happy.
There are about 200 escalators in the system, and some of them are individual units (i.e., not banked together like at, say, 34th Street-Sixth Avenue). To have a Station Supervisor at each of these escalators or escalator banks, plus a Police Officer, would mean hundreds of employees (remember, three shifts plus day-off coverage plus vacation relief, etc.). Is it really worth it?
I like the video surveillance idea better, though of course someone actually has to be WATCHING the thing. A number of years ago, I also suggested that the escalators be wired with alarms that would go off in the nearest (at the time) token booth so the (at the time) Railroad Clerk (now Station Agent) could know about it and call for help. It was deemed too expensive, though I believe a few have been installed since that time.
David
You state: "I don't see shopping mall escalators with so many problems." I agree that subway escalator performance leaves a lot to be desired. But please remember that a shopping mall escalator is not required to operate 24/7 like a subway escalator.
"[escalators] were probably stopped by troublemaking kids).
Also PD should arrest these kids lock em up for 3 days and fine then $500."
Were you there when the escalators stopped working? So how the hell would you know what stopped them?
It must be easily to complain about things which you know nothing about and use an innocent group as a scapegoat when you don't have to waste time working to pay the rent.
9 times out of 10 it is kids fooling around, I have seen it myself in the past.
In the NY Times NY Metro region section there is an article about commute times, and how 4 of NYC's 5 boroughs rank among the longest commute times. Manhattan fared much better than the other boroughs (of course).
Staten Island had the longest commute time. Part of the reason would be there is no direct subway service.
The article says even though NYC has an extensive rapid transit system, the definition of "rapid" can vary among lines. Many commuters have to take a bus to the subway, which makes their commute longer.
It also states that most of the jobs and businesses are centralized in Manhattan. Even though there are retail jobs in the outer boroughs, higher paying white collar jobs are mainly in Manhattan.
Still I don't think 45 minutes is a bad commute, considering it takes double that time from Sea Cliff to Manhattan.
Also it claims that a relatively small amount of people in the suburbs actually work in Manhattan.
Obviously it claims what we already know, the subway system needs expansion. I think southeastern Queens needs to see an extention of the E line. A new subway line needs to serve Northeast Queens communities such as Bayside. Perhaps something built under the LIRR ROW then curving north up Bell Blvd.
The 7 could've been extended, but the way the new Main street station is constructed, it is difficult to extend the 7 now.
The F should continue to the city line, with the currently unused F express tracks for trains going beyond 179st.
Problem is capacity on Queens Blvd. Construction of a super-express track, under the existing line, would make stops at 71st and then continue onto Manhattan via 63rd street, actually I think the bellmouths are there in the connector.
Also I'd like to see the abandoned Rockaway branch used for subway service, and the Lower Montauk connect to the M line in Middle Village.
Also I think both Manhattan bridge and Williamsburg bridge tracks need to have replacement tunnels. Tunnels are faster than bridges.
Yeah I know all this stuff is pie in the sky but NYC should not have the longest commute time. Improvements can always be made, as long as we don't let a few NIMBY's get in the way.
Also I'd like to see the abandoned Rockaway branch used for subway service, and the Lower Montauk connect to the M line in Middle Village.
I think the easiest thing you mentioned would be the Rockaway branch. I really think this would have great use because it goes through areas not served by rail. It would also connect the QB line, the Jamaica line and the A line, while providing intermediate service.
As for the Montauk branch, I would love to see more passenger service on theat line. The problem is though that subway and Railroad can't run on the same tracks, and that line is key to increasing freight service on Long Island, so straight conversion to subway would not be a good idea. there are some options though. They could add a third track to the line and use that one for freight and the current two for subway service. the problem with that though is that one track may not be enough for freight service. Idealy would be a four track line: two for subway and two for freight, but I don't know if the ROW is wide enough in some points for that.
Another option would be to increase LIRR passenger service on the line as the LIRR trains can share the tracks with the freight trains. It would have to be way above the joke of service they used to run on the line.
When the GCT-LIRR connection is made, I suspect that's the time to bring the Montauk Branch back into something resembling full service. Since one could send Atlantic Av branch trains via the Montauk, this would also be the time to redo Atlantic Ave.
["Also I'd like to see the abandoned Rockaway branch used for subway service"]
They did that already, back in the 50's. Its called the "A" Train.
They did that already, back in the 50's. Its called the "A" Train.
No, not that part, the rest of the Rockaway branch, from QB to the A train. You know the part with the trees growing between the rails......
But does it really matter how long the commute is if you don't have to commute?
lol, of course if you consider railfanning commuting, I guess it matters.
(In the NY Times NY Metro region section there is an article about commute times, and how 4 of NYC's 5 boroughs rank among the longest commute times. Manhattan fared much better than the other boroughs (of course).)
Had the data been compiled by place of work, not by place of residence, we would find that those WORKING IN MANHATTAN had the longest commute times. Those who both live and work in the other boroughs would travel for less time, like other Americans. Those who live in the suburbs and work in Manhattan would travel for longer than those in the outer boroughs.
And if the data could be limited to those who moved in during the past five years, and thus exclude those who bought homes or got regulated rents at low prices long ago, the data would show that those who live in or near Manhattan pay the highest rents.
Manhattan is a special place, with a unique concentration of high level jobs and experiences available. You either have to pay a lot to live there, or travel a long way to get there.
Other parts of the country just don't have a place that's worth all that trouble to get to. Other than the football stadium on a fall Saturday afternoon.
And San Francisco rents/housing costs in SF approach NY and the distinction between SF and all other parts of the Bay Area is even sharper than Manhattan v the outer boros
>>>A new subway line needs to serve Northeast Queens
communities such as Bayside. Perhaps something built under the LIRR ROW then curving north up Bell
Blvd. <<<
It would make perfect sense to do so...for those peple who don't drive or don't want to pay LIRR prices...but for the burghers of Bayside, it makes perfect sense for them not to do it (can't have the riffraff invading their turf) and so anything like that would be fought tooth, nail and lawnmower.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It would make perfect sense to do so...for those peple who don't drive or don't want to pay LIRR prices...but for the burghers of Bayside, it makes perfect sense for them not to do it (can't have the riffraff invading their turf) and so anything like that would be fought tooth, nail and lawnmower.
You see how emotions can triumph over reason. Real estate prices in Bayside would likely rise with the economic boost that subway service would provide.
Anyone else from my neck of the woods notice these low flying military choppers? They've buzzed Woodhaven a number of times since noon. They're the double-rotor Chinook class which I've never seen anywhere but an air show.
Very unsettling.
"Very unsettling. "
Oh?
I thought it should be very reassuring!
Just don't stand in front of the Chain Guns!
ELIAS
Boy, those babies are loud. Especially flying so damn low.
I was at Pemberton yesterday for an NRHS meeting. It is near MacGuiare AFB and during the 40 minutes or so I was outside looking at the various rail exhibits I saw about 8-10 C-141 Starlifters take off. Something is going on somewhere in the world. I have also recently seen many CH-53 Sea Stallions flying over Middletown CT, but I chalked that up to the proximity of the Sicorkry plant.
The choppers are most likely part of the 'Fleet Week' celebrations. They were flying over the east shore of S.I. yesterday as the Navy ships were coming in. Stay calm guys, stay calm. As for the C-141s, isn't that kind of flight activity the norm for an Air Force base?
I remember going to Great Adventure in the mid 80s, during the old 'alert' days. We always thought it was bad if we DIDN'T see incredibly massive aircraft every five minutes. Thankfully, those days are over.
I'm sure some of you older folks who went to school in the 50s and 60s are glad as well.
-Hank
I remember going to Great Adventure in the mid 80s, during the old 'alert' days. We always thought it was bad if we DIDN'T see incredibly massive aircraft every five minutes. Thankfully, those days are over.
I'm sure some of you older folks who went to school in the 50s and 60s are glad as well.
People who lived through the Cold War had to deal with the ever-present threat of nuclear annihilation. Yet in most cases they managed just fine and built decent lives for themselves and their families. Going back a bit further, people who lived through World War II had to deal with two very powerful enemies hell-bent on destroying the United States, not to mention all the young Americans who died on the battlefields, yet the grit and determination of the "Greatest Generation" was nothing short of remarkable.
Today, however, vague and unsubstantiated threats (the latest - al Qaida scuba divers!) sends everyone into sheer panic, causing them to drop any semblance of normal lives, which in turn causes severe economic damage. Just look at the way the Dow and Nasdaq plummet in response to each new "threat," or the fact that well over 100,000 people in the travel industry are now unemployed. People who hunker down at home, bonding with their families, watching "It's a Wonderful Life" and eating comfort foods like meat loaf don't do much for the economy. I would sell my soul if I could find out just why people are so fearful today when past generations were so much braver.
But I suspect that's an unanswerable question.
Boy, those babies are loud. Especially flying so damn low.
Suffolk County P.D. flies their helicopter fairly low over my neighborhood on some Saturday afternoons. The first time we saw and heard it, we figured that the police must have been looking for a fugitive. But the same thing has happened a few more times, always on Saturday afternoons, so it must be some sort of routine training exercise.
While I understand that the crews need training, I sort of wish they'd do it over some less-populated areas ... helicopters do have a pesky tendency to crash!
Yeah, I saw them at eye level from above a 1/2 mile away (I'm in a high-rise in Flatlands). I saw them shortly after taking off from -- most likely Floyd Bennett Field -- where it is quite common for exotic military choppers to re-fuel while in town or heading to parts farther north or east.
I saw three Chinooks and two apache (?) choppers around 11am and they were headed east over Canarsie, East NY/New Lots, and then what looked like Ozone Park or just beyond there (Woodhaven?).
I only saw the 2 Chinooks, headed south, flying no higher than 1,000 feet. I could almost see the pilot's face.
The smaller copters were alittle to the south and behind the much bigger Chinooks...I was spying 'em with my binocs...
Right about their height being under 1,000 feet since I'm on the 19th floor of a building, and like I said they were about even with the level of my view...
Probably related to Fleet Week, with Woodhaven being between Ft. Totten and Manhattan. We had a FDNY drill in Clove Lakes Park Tuesday for a simulated helicopter crash.
-Hank
Well,on WED., i saw a NYPD chopper over ROCKAWY. It circled over 116th sta. and yard for bout1/2 hour
dave--- how can i change my handle?
Down here in South Jersey we get a bunch of helicopters, especially those CH-53Es, I figure HMH-772, 'The Flying Armadillos' out of Willow Grove, PA must use some roughly north-south route that often runs directly over my house. We get nearly all the major types, and I have noticed patterns, the CH-46s, CH-47s, CH-53Es, VH-3s (yes the prez's helicopter), and the V/UH-60s all use the north south pattern, along with the civilian S-76 medivacs. The AH-1Ts, UH-1Ns and HH-65s all fly east-west patterns. I know the AH-1Ts and UH-1s belong to HMLA-773 det A 'The Red Dogs' also out of Willow Grove, and the HH-65s are Coast Guard out of AC International. Obviously the VH-3 and VH-60s are from HMX-1 out of Quantico Va. There also is an occasional interloper AH-1 (army style, AH-1Q? AH-1S?) that i have seen fly north-south about five miles west of my house.
I figure the AH-1s and UH-1s are going out to the Pine Barrens to practice gunnery or something, since I do belive they work as a pair in battle (similar to the OH-58/AH-64 pairing), usually there will be like 2-4 AH-1s acompanied by a single UH-1. I have never thought to look at them closely, but now I may have to look for weapons or used TOW tubes.
I also know the HH-65s are cruising the Delaware River, inspecting ships from the air and all. They are odd, cause usually they fly more northwest-southeast patterns. Most of the time I see them I'm either on my back deck, or on the pot, both on the same side of the house.
The cargo helicopters are a complete mystery, I have no idea where they are coming from, nor where thye are going. And while I know the CH-53s base, the CH-46s and CH-47s are the biggest mystery, since the closest 4 MAW CH-46 base is Norfolk, quite a ways, but I suppose doable. I have always taken the arrival of a three or four ship group of CH-46s to mean that a Amphibious Ready Group (Helicopter carrier, like the Uss Wasp) was off the coast, I'm not sure if this is a correct assumption, but hey, if it's wrong, what's the difference?
Oddly, I do not mind the tree-top flying of some of the pilots, and infact get a thrill out of seeing a CH-53E from less than 500 feet. The 7 bladed rotor shakes the air for miles, and reaches into you in a way that only a good EMD engine can ever hope to compete with. Everything in the house vibrates with the blade, TVs can lose their picture, and all kinds of fun things happen. I'm sure some of my neighbors mind it more than me, but i doubt the Marines will quiet down anytime soon.
We also see some fixed wing military stuff. P-3 Orions are an oddly common sight, and I'll see an E-2 a year or so. After 9/11, it was much easier to pick out the military jets, and I turned my 6" Dobsonian-mounted Newtonian telescope on a few high altitude jets. Came back kinda interesting, lots of C-135 types (KC-135, E-3, RC-135, E-8, and maybe C-141 and C-5), but one interesting sillouette, a definite B-1B Lancer, unmistakeable, wings swept, looking for all the world like a big fighter. We got our share of F-16s out of AC from the the ANG Jersey Devils, but they were hard to keep in the scope's viewfinder, the coolest thing about them was when they would light their afterburners and head toward the shore, a little red light fading on it's way to the eastern horizon.
Wow, sorry, I really really have done it this time with long OT posts, not only that, but at least some of this could be seen as having terrorist intelligence written all over it, please Mr. Pirmann, if you feel that this post is improper, or if you recieve even one request to remove this message, please do.
>>> Wow, sorry, I really really have done it this time with long OT posts, not only that, but at least some of this could be seen as having terrorist intelligence written all over it, <<<
You obviously wrote this before posting. If you recognized the post was off topic and having possible intelligence value, instead of apologizing you should have just not posted it. Why not use common sense rather than rely on someone else to act responsibly?
Tom
Again I apologize for the off topic post. None of the stuff I posted in there is any great secret, since I got it out of a magazine readily available at Barnes and Noble or Borders. All I did was draw conclusions, some of them undoubtedly incorrect, but perhaps a few valid, and to those few correct ideas was what I was refering to.
Sir if you have a problem with off topic posts, just don't read them, in the subject line it said "RE:OT:Helicopters over Queens" I was hoping that my expierences with military helicopters here in south jersey would be of help to those hoping to explain the overflights in their areas.
I recently received some photos of the recontruction of the destroyed Cortlandt St. station. I suggest checking them out- they are from a perspective rarely seen via the media (from the ground, showing the trackage and new steel etc...)
They are located on my website: The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Click on the first link under "latest updates" to see them.
-Harry
Wow, I'm suprised to see them so far into the work already. New York!!! Who hoo!!!
Looking good. The new ride should be better too, with a new roadbed, welded track etc.
Glad to see they've made such good progress so far. Looks like NYC can really get its ass in gear and build stuff when they want to. Hopefully the new transit hub, the memorial, and whatever else replaces the WTC will proceed at a similar pace.
It's interesting that they're building the new tunnels using essentially the same construction techniques as the original IRT tunnels, except maybe with bolts and welding instead of rivets. Seems like reinforced concrete would be more sensible for tunnel construction, but I guess they have their reasons. Maybe they want to keep things flexible enough so that the new Cortland station can be integrated into the transit hub.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's interesting that they're building the new tunnels using essentially the same construction techniques as the original IRT tunnels, except maybe with bolts and welding instead of rivets. Seems like reinforced concrete would be more sensible for tunnel construction
I was thinking the same thing. Reinforced concrete absorbs vibrations better than steel, and it lasts longer. They should have also made the tunnels wider to accommedate emergency walkways.
Great photos! Thanks!
All right, those pics are cool. Thanks for taking the time and I welcome you to NYCsubway!
A SUBWAY IS REBORN !!
Bill "Newkirk"
The Redbird trip on Sunday stops at Parkchester for lunch. What type of food is available there or am I better off bringing my own food and eating on the platform?
Thanks, in advance. I will probably be wearing my khaki colored WMATA baseball cap and either my WMATA employee shirt, 4 train shirt, or another one of the NYC Subway Line shirts that I have.
There is like a Zabar's and a decent Chineese place right by the station, a few blocks away you have a Burger King and a Popeyes. Thats about it.
You shouldn't eat on the platform.
You shoudn't eat in the shops either because of 'Right To Know' training but we all do anyway. Lord Willing, I'll be on the trip too!
CI Peter, 'Scrapping Deadbirds off #5.'
Why?
I know off hand theres a KFC and a McDonalds right by the expressway. Parkchester is a big commercial area so Im sure there are many fast food/diners/eateries out there.
Westchester Square is better, there's a WHITE CASTLE there!!
If you love chinese, my suggestion chinatown in Manhattan, Not flushing, food wasn't good over there.
Today's MTA posting of service advisories for Week 22 produced 30 new announced GO's. The A line had a total of 9 total GO's affecting it. What is the largest number of GO announcements ever made during a given week and GO's for one line in particular?
Jose
Correction, the 2 line has 8 GO's, not the A.
Now this is a longshot. When Montana Rail Link got a 20 year lease on the e NP mainline from BN they also got the Livingston shops. The backshop part became [non-union]Livingston Rebuild Center; iys latest change of ownership makes it Talgo-LRC; yes, the Talgo firm from Spain. We of the City and County Commissions have signed a resolution to encourage a real future for LRC and if I have anything to do with it I'd like to see pursuit of mass transit cars ie lght rail, heavy rail, and commuter being built right here completely in the USA [unlikely but good for a try].Some people are thinking of high speed rail, read Amtrak, but we all know about how iffy that is.Now that people have woke up urban rail is a major item. We'll see. I'm a low pay, part time city councilman now so hope I might be of some help..we need real jobs here:
This is not as improbable as it sounds. Rail transit into Yellowstone NP one real option to keep down congestion/pollution. Livingston would be a logical place to build, and yea, even to yard such a system.
Thanks for the plus. Still surplus capacity in the existing yard for car storage. Would need some rearrangement but could be done with existing real estate.Actually the summer traffic hasn't caused the unfortunately heavy traffic and whatever pollution we have.Too many people came here wanting to buy their piece of paradise and the valley between here and Gardiner is quite busy; if projections for growth come to pass you'd think you were in Jersey or Connecticut.BTW the only thing left of the old Yellowstone Park Branch is about a mile to a lumber mill they switch.Much like South Ferry Gardiner was a loop terminal!But it is all gone. BTW also for you Mad magazine fans Al Feldtein has a place in the Paadise Valley along with several actors, etc. Rail wise all we have is MRL/BNSF frieghts, occasionally we get to see an excursiontrain or MRL's owner's private cars.
I've been wondering about this for awhile, but why (esp. on AMTRAK's loco.'s) are there TWO different pantographs, one in use, and one appearing to be "folded-down"? Am I seeing things right, or is it just me?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
P.S. PHOTOS depicting one or more of AMTRAK's locomotives with their names would be GREATLY appreciated, as I do not know any loco. names besides the AEM-7, HHP-8's, and the AE Power Cars.
Pete, two pans are provided on many electric locomotives for a number of reasons. First and foremost is to provide a backup source of power in the event of the failure of the pan in use. Second is that certain pantograph designs (not all) are primarily unidirectional, where you need to have one particular one up to go forward and the other to go backward (not that you can't operate forward with the backward pan, but you must do so at reduced speed because the spring pressure against the catenary is balanced wrong). Third is that in some applications both pans would be raised to maintain contact with the wire under severe weather conditions (freezing rain, sleet, snow, etc.), with the front pan effectively serving as a "sleet cutter". I've seen a number of photographs of the Pennsy's GG-1 and P5/P5a electrics with both pans raised for exactly that reason. Fourth, on a couple of railroads, both pans were always raised, and had to be for the locomotive to operate - why, I'm not sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Great Northern RR's electric locomotives (used for the Cascade tunnel) required both pans to be raised because they were AC-DC locomotives with motor-generator rectifiers. Each pan supplied a seperate motor-generator pack.
Leave it to the Billy Goat to make things complicated!For those who don't know what Billy Goat means look at an old GN logo [a good one, not those crummy simplificaions they had in the 60's.
Another reason for two pantographs is because if one becomes damaged, the locomotive, or MU train, can continue using the undamaged forward pantograph.
I know that the Reading Company's general order for position for pantographs on their MU trains was always that the 'pans' were up on the last two - four cars on trains with two - eight car length respectively.
Why, because if something fouled the rear pantographs, and they became disabled, the forward pans wouldn't be damaged from debris and could be used to continue the trip. If the railroad ordered forward pans in use, a tangled front pantograph could 'ride back' and also damage the rear pans, thus no working pans to continue on the trip.
The RDG could do this because their original MU equipment had bus connectors along the roof of the cars which distributed electric current to all the cars, even if two pans where up on a six car train.
I expect this is the reason the Pennsy and New Haven also operated with the rear pan raised as 'normal' operation. Of course, ascetically, it also looks better for photos.
I hope this makes sense.
Jim K.
Chicago
On the Lackawanna suburban electrification, all of the MU cars were fitted with two pantographs each. Each car had a pan tensioned for normal pressure against the wire, and the other pan tensioned to put much more pressure against the overhead for sleet cutting. The higher-tension pan was ONLY used for sleet cutting because it tended to punish the overhead, but it could pick up power just like the normally-sprung pan.
Frank Hicks
The original MU equipment on the Illinois Central Electric consisted of motor/trailer pairs, with the motor car having two pantographs. I recall from an article in Trains magazine that the "north" pantograph was used one month, followed by the "south" pan the following month, thus equalizing wear on the pans.
"thus equalizing wear on the pans."
Maybe so, but the pans IIRC are carbon, and are supposed to wear, them being easier to replace than miles and miles of wire.
Elias
Here's a pic of AEM-7 937 with both Pans up, looks like ones a sleet cutter, given the weather.
http://lib2.clark.cc.oh.us/amtrak/amtAEM7/amt937.jpg
http://lib2.clark.cc.oh.us/amtrak/Amtrak.html
Why do MU's have "double-arm" pantographs while locomotives only have one?
That's just what you see locally. I've seen MUs and locomotives with both single and double arm pans - the single arm (most of which are a design called Faively) is a relatively modern design, whereas the double arm pans are a more traditional design.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only the NJT Arrow MU's have that double arm pantograph. It is still a Faively style pan, it just has two main arms. The reason is probably to allow bi-direction hi-speed operation. I miss the old style, truss design, Stiensen pantographs.
I miss the old style, truss design, Stiensen pantographs.
They're still used in Europe, in places. The RC-4s have them, I think. Which is funny cause the AEM-7 doesn't, and they're the same locomotive.
The really old cross arm styles aren't used anywhere, AFAIK. I don't know about bow collectors either.
They are still on the SEPTA Blueliner MU's in MoWire serivce. There is also a stack of them at the Reading and Northern Hamburg PA facility.
graet site for amtrak engines-
http://lib2.clark.cc.oh.us/amtrak/
I came across an interesting photo under "Comet I Commuter Cars" on Michael Steinberg's Unofficial NJ TRANSIT website. Here is a synopsis of their service:
In the late 1960s, the Erie Lackawanna Railroad ran commuter service out of its Hoboken Terminal in New Jersey to outlying points within the states of NJ and New York. The trains, both electric and diesel powered, were becoming quite aged, and replacements soon became a necessity. Realizing the vital commuter service needed to be upgraded, the State of New Jersey ordered 155 new commuter cars from Pullman-Standard. The cars were to be constructed of brushed aluminum, and featured a striking paint scheme, making them quite different from any other cars in Hoboken commuter service. In addition, 32 new diesels were ordered from General Electric to power the new trains. In 1970, the first GE U34CH locomotives arrived on the property. Until the commuter cars arrived, the units were stored or pressed into freight service. Finally, in 1971 the coaches arrived from Pullman-Standard, and the train sets went to work. After the Conrail merger in 1976, the cars and trains continued to wear the EL/NJDOT scheme. NJ TRANSIT took over commuter operations in the early 1980s, and soon after the commuter cars were stripped of their EL and NJDOT markings, to be replaced with the tri-colored stripes of NJT. After being rebuilt in the late 1980s, most of these cars survive today in daily commuter service after over 22 years, a testament to the original design and construction of these cars.
Here is a PHOTO of a Comet I Snack Car as built by Pullman-Standard.
That's pretty cool - a simple design, but one that would be perfect for commuter/short-haul services!
Notice the seats ... NJT replaced them with MNR/LIRR-style fixed seats, but now they're going retro in their new cars by bringing back the flip-seats!
Some Comet II's have the older-style orange flip-seats. Are those original?
The seats in this photo appear to be dark, like green or blue (pic appears to be black & white). Similar to the old Arrow II/III seats (orange/black and green/blue). What were the original seats like on the Arrow I, before being converted?
Some Comet II's have the older-style orange flip-seats. Are those original?
The seats in this photo appear to be dark, like green or blue (pic appears to be black & white). Similar to the old Arrow II/III seats (orange/black and green/blue). What were the original seats like on the Arrow I, before being converted?
Since I was not around in these days nor have I found out, you can ask others for answers.
Please answer the questions corresponding to the message I have responded to.
Somewhere I have a color picture of me as a child in one of these, IIRC the seats were a light blue color similar to that of the LIRR C-1s.
hey i would like to know everyones favorite and most hated car equipment im just curious to find out what they like. It can be past or present equipment.
Here are mine
For as a passenger and comfort
BMT/IND
1.R46
2.R44
3.R68/A
4.R32
5.R38
6.R40
7.R42
8.R30
IRT
1.R142A
2.R62/A
3.R36WF
4.R33
5.rest of the red birds
For rail fanning purposes
BMT/IND
1.R32
2.R40
3.R42
4.R38
5.R44/46
6.R68
IRT
1.R36 WF
2.R62A with Rail Fan window
3.R33
4.rest of the redbirds
5.R62 with full width cab
6.R142
I haven't yet rode an R143 so i dont how the ride is or anyting. Feel free to list the equipment you like.
Adam
R68A for everything except railfanning. R32 for that.
The R-62 is my favorite cause it has the Durability and Potential of the R-32, and the best MDBF in the systems history. I know they will last 50 years!
My Second Favorite is the R-32, they are tough SOB's and they are good at accelration and breaking.
My least favorite is the R-40, they are ugly!!! Safety wise they are horrible, and everything just stinks, but I do love the railfan window.
The R40s are not unsafe!!!!!! those bars prevent anyone from falling out.
They're not "ugly", they're just "different"
I just copied and pasted, so your rank numbers are stille there, but I put them in my order:
For Riding Comfort
1.R46
2.R44
R-143-142
3.R68/A
4.R32
7.R42
R62
5.R38
All IRT Redbirds
8.R30
6.R40
For rail fanning purposes
R16
2.R40
R27-30
3.R42
All Irt Redbirds
4.R38
5.R44/46
R62
1.R32
R143
6.R68
My favorite operating wise ,without a doubt is the R 142 because I know it will Make me go Out of passenger service sooner or later.
No doubt!!!!!!!!! Talk about a 1 tripper!!!!!!!!!!!
Hay thats still you to go I don't care if you have 5 dead motors take it down the road!!
I Like the R33 and R36 for railfanning but working I go with the R62A's.
If we could have a channel that shows stuff about the Subways 24/7. What type of shows would you want to run on it? Be as creative as possible. I would want the show
"Railfanning backwards! Starring...the Los Angeles Rainfan who videotapes subways lol!!!!"
Do I hear reruns? Good idea! bad bussiness plan.
Don't know if this is true but I heard that there was an accident involving a brand new set of R143 cars two days ago. The set supposedly hit a bumper block in 207 Yard and derailed.
Any of our knowledgeable SubTalkers know if there is any truth to this?
I knew this would pop up sooner or later. T'is true. Car #8175 was pushed through a bumping block roughly 50 feet and derailed. The train operator was told by supervision to stop and stay. It's unclear why the movement resumed but the matter is under investigation. Fortunately, only minimal damage was reported.
"The train operator was told by supervision to stop and stay. It's unclear why the movement resumed but the matter is under investigation"
If the operator is at fault, does that mean he will be fired? Is the operator suspended while the investigation takes place? If so, is that with or without pay? -Nick
IF the T/O is found to be at fault be could be suspended, he could be demoted or he could be fired. Please note that I said, "IF". There is likely much more to this story. However, it would not be unusual for the operator to be placed on a modified assignment during the investigation.
Ok; thanks for the info, Train Dude! :-) -Nick
"Through a bumping block"
"minimal damage"
are there special "tear-away" bumper blocks in use now?
(I'm envisioining as a bumper block one of those substantial metal thingies meant to keep trains from falling off the end of the El)
I heard the the T/O Dropped off a TSS off at the Tower and was told to stop and stay until he got back. Then the T/O heard "Keep it coming" on the radio and moved the train. Sounds like the T/O is at fault.
I wounder if it is one of the T/O that I know from Work Trains last pick.
Robert
At 3:00 Pm I was on the L going from Lovia to New Lots and i looked over and saw R-142 # 6951-6955 going to Linden Shop i guess why are they R-142 going to Linden Shop anybod know
Put that R-143 on Track 3
Thank You for answering that question. I was wondering what came in. Red diesel locomotives with flashing strobe lights came past me in the Bronx just moments ago. The $64,000 is what are they?
R-142s start out the trip from upstate NY riding on flatcars behind a freight train. Once in the city, they are unloaded off the flatcars and travel on LIRR trackage that comes through ENY. Those freight tracks connect with subway system at Linden Yard. From Linden, the cars are pulled by diesel locomotives to a Bronx train yard.
-Stef
I saw the train at Utica Ave at 9:25PM.
This was one of those days that I was unable to see it. The delivery went up the Lex. It was certainly not on the West Side, otherwise I would have seen it from Columbus Circle. Oh well!
-Stef
I rode R-68A #5188 on the "W" train to Coney Island today and noticed that the first openable window behind the first side doors on the right side would not close. I wonder if maintenance is aware of the problem and hopefully the problem will be corrected. I also noticed that there was a cracked window in one of the doors in R-68 #2782, also on a "W" train.
#3 West End Jeff
What is this, a defect sheet?
This is part of the reason I do not care for most railfans.
Heh. Just be glad there isn't a suggestion box on the cab door. :)
I am awaiting the followup posts "Crumpled early edition of Daily News found on E Train" and "Used Coffee Cup on the Brighton".
Heh. Perhaps it's time to take a small carboard box, paint it MTA blue, cut a slot in the top, cut the entire BOTTOM off the box, glue it to a cab door and paint "suggestions" on the side facing the geese. You get the picture.
Maybe they can open up a "complaints" window at Jay. :)
That is not so far from reality! As I guess you all have seen the little boxes they put on the side of the Metrocard readers, the ones you can check your balance with; I've seen a few with the bottoms busted off, I guess so the "dollar swipe" guys can get the cards to bend, mutilate and whatever else they do with them.
Oooo! Even better! Maybe the Dept of Subways could put up pads of defect sheets on the windows with a big red arrow, "FREE! Take one!" with an official looking envelope so folks could write up cars and turn 'em in. Maybe a "register to win a free cruise" as an incentive. Yeah, that's the (trouble) ticket! :)
Maybe they should have the contest upon who can find the rustiest "Redbird" that is still in service. They can also try to see who can find the leakiest Slant R-40.
#3 West End Jeff
Well, when I headed on down to the city last time, I turned in every piece of redbird that came off in my hand while changing cars. Dunno if they're planning to glue them back tho'. :)
I second that!
It can't be. It would seem that people have actually read this.
Hahahahahaha ... so that hasn't changed after all these years either? Well, at least they mop the floors now and then when they ain't putting screws in them. :)
Yeah Alex, you've got a point there. I'm surprised that defect sheets aren't used for when the paper towels run out.
Nah, toilet paper.
Well, Jeff, seems that my irritation at your comment has been upstaged by three other preceeding posts. But to answer your 'question', NO, maintenance is likely not aware of the defect. Notice, that I used the term "defect". I think that your use of the term, "Problem" makes your observation sound more significant than it actually is.
The defect is an extremely minor one and would likely be caught during pre-service inspection or during scheduled maintenance inspection. Seems to me that if that's the worst defects you can find, the fleet must be in pretty good shape.
Thanks for the very valuable information, Jeff.
There is a suggestion Box, Its called shoe slipper off the side of the Head.
Anymore "problems", like a cut out door??? Im glad that I dont work the W. Thank god for the R142 and my passengers telling me that a door is stuck and wont move................
BTW, on my way to 242-VC, I was in R38car#4xxx and the window was stuck there too. I tried so hard to close but to no avail. Maybe I should have went to dispatchers office at 168St where I got off and reported it. After all Im a C/R on board a subway train.................
I think that it would have been perfectly acceptable to put it on the car defect sheet. I really appreciate it when either a T/O or C/R stop me and give me a car number and defect. Sometimes if I'm on a "foreign" line and I observe a defect I'll identify myself and report it to the crew and ask that they put it on the defect sheet as well.
Yes the B division is foreign territory to me, although Ive been in the 168St dispatcher's office many times. One time I helped a C line crew at Bway-ENY find and properly cut a door while on my way to work. I guess it has been awhile for them..........
The bottom line is that I rather get defect info from my colleagues than from some passenger. Hoaxes, delays, etc.........
I tried to do the same on car #5188, but also to no avail. The defect might have been minor, but it is annoying.
#3 West End Jeff
I can't tell you how many vent windows do not close/latch on the ENY R40/42 equipment. Kids/vandals stand on the seat and pull down on the windows with both hands thereby pulling them out of allignment so they'll never close. Ride the A or C and notice the vent windows on the R38's. Last time I looked, they were wired shut.
Maybe the same thing was done to the window that I mentioned on the R-68A that I rode on Friday.
#3 West End Jeff
I was at Branford today and couldn't close the front window of one of the trolleys.
Well WRITE IT UP! We'll get the no good sumbitch responsible. You betcha. :)
We DO write 'em up. But certain people in the shop put priority on restoring other equipment rather than fixing what we have running - even safety issues such as an inoperative gong. I've written the same gong up the last three trips and it's still not fixed :-(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll remember to bring a frying pan whenever I get up there and a wooden spoon. You know how it is when you're outside the major metro areas, IMPROVISE! :)
They should put the priorities on equipment that is usable rather than spending money where they don't need to spend money.
#3 West End Jeff
It's not necessarily money, it's volunteer psychology. It's a lot more exciting to work on something "new" rather than fix what is already running.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
!!!!!!
Good thing this message board wasn't around back in 1981 when I was riding the J (which I used to call the Goddamn J, or the Joke Train) back in the stellar MTA years of 1981-2.
The servers would have crashed from the complaints.
:)
The servers would have crashed from the complaints.
"I can't see out the windows because someone spray painted them".
"Here comes the train! I only waited 45 minutes for it! It's a good day today, usually I wait at least 55 minutes."
"etc"
"I can't see out the windows because someone spray painted them".
What windows?? Oh, you mean the pieces of cardboard.
"Here comes the train! I only waited 45 minutes for it! It's a good day today, usually I wait at least 55 minutes."
Here comes the train! I only waited 45 minutes for it! It's a good day today, usually I wait at least 55 minutes. Sure love riding the train at rush hour!!!
How about these ones...
"Should I pay my fare, because maybe the heroin dealers at the station will shoot me for being a square?"
"Should I tell this rat he's standing on my foot?"
"I've been waiting here (Chambers Street at 1 a.m.) for an hour and a half....you think the motorman fell asleep at Queens Blvd. and forgot to run the train?"
:)
STILL love the Broadway Bklyn line, all the same.
lol.....yeah that sort of sums it up....
I stopped at White castle on Saturday night. The drive-up window wouldn't close either. I wonder if White Castle has a maintenance dept.
Friday night the ATM at my bank was not giving receipts. I wonder if my bank ATM maintenance division knows about this serious defect.
Man, MOST White Castles need some serious finetuning. :)
except for those lovely little hellburgers.
:)
..........throw it into da ocean.....................?.....lol..??
.........????.............!
Salaam, you snortin' Ripple again?
' sorry "2" dissapoint "U" i only drink coffee.........( sigh ).....
>>>>>>>>>>lol!!....
Is anybody planning on attending?
This is right in my backyard at my parish, St. Augustine of Canterbury.
I'll be there with Mr.T as my 'co-pilot'.
;-D
What time are you planning on being there?
Double D, is that a threat? Or you needa body gard?
:-) Sparky
My parish is Matawan Jewish Centre, but I'll probably be there anyway!
I'm pretty sure I'll be there!!!
I expect to be there, probably with Anon_e_mouse Jr. as well... we're "first thing in the morning" kind of people.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So am I - I'll be in my black F T-shirt............
I'll have a table of my videos there, so do come by and say hello!
--Mark
Attention: This show's theme is rapid transit vs. steam, freight, etc. that you typically see at other shows. There will also be some trolley & bus stuff.
I'm looking forward to the trolley & El layout (they put two clubs layouts togather).
It also a good place to have a SubTalk meet.
Mr rt__:^)
Good to see a bunch of SubTalkers (mostly Branfordites as well) at the show this morning. JohnS (Sparky) and his wife, Mark Feinman, chuchubob, Mr. T, BMTman, R16 Lover, Mark W., Alan Aron, Heypaul, and probably a couple of others who I'm forgetting at the moment were there, along with Anon_e_mouse Jr. and myself. (And of course Steve Olsen!) It was a good show, well worth the trip, although I did manage to keep my spending in check (one new book, Trolleys of New Jersey from Morning Sun). Mark was peddling his videos and was showcasing the ones he shot last weekend - no copies available at the show but he was taking orders for delivery within a couple of weeks.
After the show Jr. and I decided that, since it had been a while since I had ridden the Broad Street subway in Philadelphia (and he never had), we had a good excuse for a brief field trip. So off we went, riding a local from Fern Rock to Pattison and back to Fairmont, then change for the Ridge Avenue spur to the end of the line and back, running on the express tracks to Fern Rock. In light of SEPTA's current super-paranoia about photography I left my cameras in the van. The closed Spring Garden station on the spur was reasonably well lit; it's completely desecrated in graffiti. Some of the renovated stations on the northern end of the line are quite nice. We also got to see into the lower level at Pattison Avenue, as it was well lit (not that there's much to see, but...) And there were three of the old cars stored at Fern Rock, in apparantly very poor condition. As we looped the yard on the way back in we noticed one of the modern cars that had been converted to some kind of work service and renumbered CW-3 - not sure what it was being used for. All in all a nice ride.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Me and SR took I ride over there. I enjoyed myself we brought 4 Redbird mugs and 2 R29 belt buckles. Then brought about over 6 tapes from Mark. I looked at 2 of them already and mark did a great job on both which where the No.7 Flushing Line and the subway speedway tapes.
ahhh - you liked those, eh? Yeah, the "Subway Speedway" one was a very popular video at the show besides the fantrips ... as I type this, I'm starting to assemble the orders I took for the fantrips today. I also got myself 4 of those Redbird mugs - they really came out nice!
Now that you have the Flushing Line during the daytime, next time you should get the Redbirds on the Flushing Line nighttime video .... see you soon. It was also nice to meet your father (again!).
--Mark
Hey, Dave! I never ran into you and your dad. You guys must've gotten their later in the day? I was at the show with Thurston, heypaul, and Hartbus.
What did you think of those layouts? Vern Gillman's was the best....he had coverted his MTH R-32's into true 3rd rail-running operation.
Too bad you couldn't have been there for the SubTalk group photo...
They had some good stuff over there. I liked the Redbird and R32 model that was side by side.
Today is the first day I was wearing my R29 Belt buckle and everyone is asking where I got it.
Hey, Dave -- gotta send me a 'finder's fee' as I tipped you off about Subway Al, right...LOL! ;-D
Glad you could make out there. Too bad our timing was off. BTW when did you and PBD, Sr. get there?
We got there at about 1:35PM. The tip is in the mail! hehe.
Dave, we left a little after l pm. The traffic in both Jersey and Staten Island was a mess, so getting to Brooklyn was a pain in the arse, taking us more than an hour to get to Floyd Bennett Field for the Bus Rodeo...
Yes, a most enjoyable morning. I was pleased to meet heypaul, Hart Bus, Mark W and Sparky, and to see Mark Feinman, BRT/BMTman, Mr. t, andAnon_e_mouse (and Anon Jr) again.
A highlight of the show was that the NYC Model Transit Assoc layout now operates with real third rail, the subway cars having been fitted with third rail shoes.
Anon- Its always an unexpected (but hoped-for) bonus when the Broad Street Subway train goes around the loop at Fern Rock. I got a photo of the old cars on such a trip last Oct 19.
antiques
work cars
After I left the show I drove to Hamilton and rode NJT into Trenton and back to get the info for my second answer to Railfan Pete's circus train question.
Good to meet you, too, Bob ... is someone posting the picture of the nearly a dozen of us who posed at my table?
(And that other "radio station" picture of 4 of us wearing NYC Subway Line tees?)
--Mark
They are in the BMTmans camera, so I expect you'll be able to see both soon.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, it was good to see you and Anon Jr, too ....
--Mark
I was there! But I didn't recognize anybody.
Next time hang out at the NYC Model Transit Assoc layout; SubTalkers keep drifting back to there.
Well, if you never met any of us before how would you know what we look like? You should have mentioned here what you'd be wearing to the show for us to ID you. Many SubTalkers either wore a shirt indicating their favorite line (guilty), or they wrote their handle on their nametags (provided by the show organizers).
Right, four different lines were advertized. As for me I wore my Subway Series hat. Still haven't wore it out < G >.
Mr t__:^)
I did both, favorite line & name tag. Sparky from the "G" :-)
Chris, it was great running into you and Jr. at the show. Sorry to see that you guys had to leave because we were looking for the two of you around 12:20 when we were organizing the guys for the SubTalkers/Branfordites group photo at Mark's table (like last year). Also, I suppose chuchubob left before noon also as he was absent from the shot as well. I'll have some downloaded by tomorrow.
At least you got some time to railfan in Philly. I wouldn't have been surprised if you had run into Mark W. and his gang as they left Kendall Park near 1pm and were also headed to Philly to do some railfanning!
At about 1:30, Mr.T, heypaul, Hartbus and I double-backed to Brooklyn to invsetigate the NYCT Bus Rodeo and got a bunch of surprises: couple of Redbirds and a 'flying-fishbowl' sitting out behind a secured NYPD Training Center at Floyd Bennett Field! Also, there was an open hangar new the bus show that was a display of American Air Power. There was something from almost every division of the Military, from a Huey to and a Coast Guard rescue copter to seaplanes and a genuine Nike missile. There was also a Strato-Cruiser there that landed earlier in the year on it's own power...pretty neat stuff.
The Bus Rodeo was well represented with classic buses from the NYCT Museum collection. There were clowns (not us!), free buffet, children's games and T-shirt give-a-ways (missed that part). We mossied around for awhile, then tried to sweet-talk a cop into letting us into the fortified area to view the Redbirds (even from a distance we were able to make out the window configurations. The cars are most likely R-21 or 22s). Unfortunately, the cop took one like at Heypaul and figured us to be a band of potential terrorists and told us to move on or face serious jail time...
Doug, sorry we missed the pic too... Jr. has only just so much patience with such things though. Now if Heypaul had remembered his grill and Hart Bus had remembered the Isaac Gellis franks, things might have been different :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was nice getting to meet everyone. Is anyone going to post the group photo?
I, however, did not keep my spending in check. I fell in love with the two brass R15's from MTS. Since I live in the area, I went back at 4:00 PM with my wife, and with her permission, made the purchase. I guess I can't resist anything with the porthole stormdoors, ala the R16. Now I'm going to purchase the R15 kit from Image Replicas and have a train of 5!
I also purchased the Redbird rollsign box, and I'm going to have it built into my family room wall. My family room is being redone to have a Transit theme.
Hope to see everyone soon again.
Ahh, the brass R-15s .. I have three myself ... pretty cool.
Someone beat me to the R-38 that I was thinking of buying ... oh well!
--Mark
I also bought the three car R15 kit so I can run a train of 5!
I'm telling you - I couldn't resist.
Eye saw a model of a Montreal Obs trolley that I've been operating at Warehouse Point (Seashore has one too ... only four real ones ever made). Mentioned it Sunday to the Dispatcher. He wanted it :-(
I find it interesting that should I comment to the model trolley guys that I've operated the real thing they are operating in miniture they don't seem to care. But it is great to see the minitures preserving them in their own way.
Mr t__:^)
>>>"It was nice getting to meet everyone. Is anyone going to post the group photo?"<<<
"Hey Paul" has posted some photos from Saturday on Harry's Board.
The post "Transfer At Kendall Park for...." Thanks. Paul :-) Sparky
Did anyone see an R-142 or R-143 model while they were there? If so, did you catch their name and address?
Models of R-142/R-143 do not exist in any scale.
--Mark
Does anyone have any? I know they are connecting them at Corona, but there aren't any pics of it at NYCSubway?
according to the 3/1/98 irt car assignments, the R110 was in service on the 5, did anyone see this when it was happening
The R110A was in service on the 5 line for a very short period of time. It made the last <5> run from 238th Street to Bowling Green and back. The automated announcements were not programmed but it did display the destination. On the return trips, the operator would change the signs to (2) at 149th Street-GC. To my rememberance (which isn't that good) this took place before 3/1/98.
The R110A trainset during 'post 911 ressurection' was the object of safety considerations...it was the one that had the battery box explosion at East 180th which injured CIs and vendors. CI Peter
were is it now
It's been in Pitkin Yard, AFAIK, for ages, while it picks up crap (pigeon crap, i.e., ) in the yard...you should have seen pictures of it...
Cleanairbus
do you have any
Huh! It wouldn't be noticed, but just notice the dirt and grime put there. Yeah, I think you will see them back in service soon once the entire R142 fleet comes out. They are compatible, just fix the battery boxes.
well currently that r110a is at pitkin yard layed up on track 44 in the back by its lonesome- it is sad to see money wasted on something that had potential
Thanks for the update...four men could have been killed over that project. It was an expensive trainset but most of the cost was borne by the vendors. Makes a great home for the homies. CI Peter
Money was not wasted. The purpose of the R110A was to test new mechanical and computer based components to be used in future subway car orders, as in R142 & R142A. For better or worse, that goal was accomplished.
I guess what he means is that the trainset as expensive and high tech as it is, is in mothballs not turning a wheel. At least the R-11 was rebuilt to run again.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't see why the R110A cannot be refitted to run with the R142, as their mechanically similiar. The internal seating will have to be changed (a pity, as I loved the foward facing seats on an IRT car, something never to be seen again). The R110B is another story, being a bizarre length, they can never run with anything else. I still think they can be divided into 3 sets and assigned to the Rockaway shuttle.
R110 series did serve their purpose well and efforts of 'resurrection' resulted in a battery box explosion which affected ALL subway cars entering service barns along with commensurate ventilation modifications to the new trainsets. Considering the amount of work being done by vendors to upgrade new tech, it is unlikely that their time will be routed back for another attempt in the near future. CI Peter
throw them into the ocean too ??
..........................................!
>>throw them into the ocean too ??<<
Unless they are loaded with asbestos like the Redbirds. They probably have no asbestos, so maybe they'll sell they and make them into roadside hot dog stands !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I know there are MSTS and BVE fans out there, but does anyone besides me have this simulation game? While you are not driving the train, you do get to dispatch various trains across a territory.
There are a few great Subway territories available that have kept me entertained - the IND, 59th Street to Downtown, after Chrystie Street in 1968, the current IND, and current Coney Island tower.
My favorite is the current BMT from 57th Street to Pacific Street, including the J, M, & Z on Nassau Street. It's quite a challenge turning the Q at 57th Street, bringing the W in and out of the Express tracks between 34th and Times Square, getting the M lined up in and out of Montague Street, etc.
If you do have the game, is anybody developing territories?
I have the free version 2 of Train Dispatcher with the Stillwell Terminal territory. Fun program though I've never taken the time to learn all the ins and outs.
BVE is also fun for NYCTA fans, as is Bahn.
MSTS has the Franklin Shuttle route but I can't get it to work. The same guy who did it is working on other NYCTA routes.
Alan Glick
The TD3 version of Stilwell is way better. I fixed a lot of stuff, and added more time and territory. (The stuff on the Culver is not even on the board at CI tower!) The trains have 5 second reaction times, rather than 2 minutes! There's also some work extras and stuff. The funkiness with remembering to line the leaving homes for turning trains is gone, since the trains now turn themselves without dissapearing from the screen. A lot of people found that mondo annoying - because it was!
Dave
You did a real nice job with the TD3 version.
Whats the site to get the Franklin Shuttle for MSTS?
Here's the main page:
http://jcamacho.topcities.com/main.html
Here's the page with the Franklin Shuttle files
http://jcamacho.topcities.com/routedownloads.htm
Alan Glick
It was like $50 for a 2 meg game and I couldn't find a crack anywhere. I consider that price a major ripoff.
Here's their site.
http://www.signalcc.com/
You can download version 2 for free and access their free library which has some NYCTA territories.
Alan Glick
The only thing they were giving away for free last time I looked was a sorry piece of crippleware that could only be used 10 times. Jesus, 45$ for TD 3. That's the going price for a new top of the line game like The Sims, Civ 3 or Morrowin and they are charging it for something that is freeware quality.
I believe that when TD3 came out, the free versions of TD2 allowed unlimited play, not just 10 times.
Alan Glick
Couldn't find a crack???????
So what if it is 2 meg. It's still alot of fun.
Yeah, "cracks" are used to steal software rather than reject and not buy and use it because you don't like the terms. What's especially humorous though about most "cracks" is that they're written by former shareware authors who didn't make a buck and get even with people putting trojans in the "crack fixes" ...
$50 seems a perfectly reasonable price for all the work that went into it given that maybe 100 people tops would be interested in the final work outcome of the author. And before anybody gets in my face for chastising them for THEFT, let's see them go to work for a couple of weeks and give away their paychecks. Hmmm.
Thanks.
I'm so glad Subtalk is back!!!!!
Considering the amount of time you could piss away dispatching virtual trains on your PC, $50 is nothing.
In the end it probably SAVES me money, since otherwise I might be surfing the net BUYING stuff I don't need!
Signal Computer Consultants is like, one guy, so if you go "cracking" the game, you're really doing another railfan a big disservice. It's not like ripping off stuff from Microsoft or some other evil-empire type conglomerate.
Anyone who saw TD 2 knew it took about a week to programme. They knew that they had no competition and saw fit to charge monopoly rates. It is perfectly justifiable to fight monopolies with underground market tactics.
If it only took a week to program, why didn't you go out and take a week and a half to program something better? That is the ethically acceptable way to handle it (also more profitable to you personally).
The other way is called theft.
I am not yet that talented a programmer, but maybe I will one of these years.
Anyway, if you enjoy being taken advantage of, be my guest.
"Anyone who saw TD 2 knew it took about a week to programme"
"I am not yet that talented a programmer,"
But somehow qualified to judge the work of others?
Does that fall into the category of knowing about stuff you don't know about yet?
Like RonInBayside, I encourage you to step up to the plate, or sit down.
theft is Jerky Mikes middle name...IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Supporting theft now are we? Hardly surprising from someone who vowed to help terrorists.
Alan Glick
It is perfectly justifiable to fight monopolies with underground market tactics.
when did he vow to help terrorists?
I should not have brought up that past topic. Consider it dropped.
Alan Glick
Never, some people on this board lack sufficient brain power to understand long sentences.
I wasn't going to go further into this but since you've called me a liar (among other things) here we go. Most people who've been on this board for a while remember the post 9/11 threads dealing with track maps. An official of another state's transit agency had asked for the removal of their track maps from this site. Jerkey Mike was extremely vocal in his opposition to this move. He claimed, self-righteously, that in order to protect the constitution, he would hand-deliver track maps to the terrorists.
After promoting thievery, and aid to terrorists, we shouldn't be surprised that an aversion to telling the truth is another one of his attributes.
Alan Glick
oh yes, i remember now, though i dont think that the terrorists would have any trouble making there own track map
I never called you a liar. I said you didn't understand me or you chose your words in an effort to paint me in a bad light. Saying I want to aid terrorists is different than saying I believe in my civil liberties. Why did you mention the first without the latter? I said that I would rather aid terrorists than give up the constitution. Are you telling me that you would do something different? So next time you wish to state what I said please give the whole story then just that which aides your position.
The funny thing is, that TD2/3 is nearly exacrly what the real Metro North dispatchers use to dispatch their territory. When I got a tour of SS75, the operator was running the interlocking from a Windows NT box spread over 3 display terminals. It was all point and click with the mouse with a little extra window that handled blocking devices. The operator also had a 4th terminal that gave a scrolling view of the entire MNRR operation. The graphics were very similar to TD2/3. Its freaky how virtual and real life converge.
So if it is "nearly exacrly what the real Metro North dispatchers use to dispatch their territory," why not spend the $50?
Dave put together a great Coney Island territory, and there are others that are loads of fun. You really feel like you are dispatching the real thing.
Well the real thing has to interface with the signaling system hardware and it also has to deal with blocking devices and track warrents. Furthermore, there is no pre-programmed schedual, the dispater has to label the trains as they come into play. The Operator at SS75 also has to deal w/ trains comming in from Amtrak territory. The only warning he has is a little yellow monitor that displays incomming movements. SS75 is cool because they still have the old 1950 US&S NX machine in place. It's a huge black console w/ angled ends and it takes up most of the room in SS75. When installed it was one of the first of its kind and the whole 1950's New Haven area re-signaling cost like 300 million in today's dollars. It was a state of the art system for its time.
I look forward to seeing all of you on the Redbird trip tomorrow. I will be wearing my WMATA baseball cap and either my WMATA employee shirt or my 4 train shirt (most likely). See you then!
I'm looking foward to this IF I can get back into NYC in time to meet my friends and represent my crew. Semi-official of course. CI Peter
I just found out that Peggy Darlington, NYCT Station Agent will attend both trips. She advised me tomorrow she'll be wearing an MTA ball cap and Monday in full uniform.
I cant go-- someone has to be the brains of the outfit!
Tell Peggy that Mark W. sends his regards...
I wish I could be there, as I had been hearing about the CERA trip since last year and was looking forward to going. But at least I'll be back in NYC in a couple weeks. It's been too long since I've visited my second-favorite city on earth!
Have a fun trip, everybody!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Story in NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Mozambique-Train-Crash.html
Over 200 dead, a sad day in the world of trains. Also a Plane Crashed in China/ Taiwan killed 225. Sad day for Transportation in General. My heart goes out to the families affected by these tradegies.
I heard that the MTA runs on a weekday schedule on Veteran's Day (and it is on a bus map), does that also include express and rush hour service on weekends?
FOr the TA, Veterans Day is a regular weekday daily schedule.
Yes, that means that the <5> has run on weekends, that's good news for all the weekend riders from Brooklyn to the Bronx and White Plains Road Riders who have extra service
If Veterans Day is a Saturday, a regular Saturday schedule is operated. If Veterans Day is a Sunday, a regular Sunday schedule is operated. If Veterans Day occurs during the week, a regular weekday schedule is operated. Of course, a General Order can alter service patterns on any line, not just the #5. Veterans Day is just another day in the life of the TA because for most customers Veterans Day is just another regular working business day. There are very few special days. Saturday schedules are operated on Presidents Day and July 4th. Why? Because most people do not go to work and no rush hour is needed. Sunday schedules are operated on New Years Day, Memorial Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and Christmas Day. Why? Again, because most people do not go to work and no rush hour is needed. On all other days the schedule according to the calandar day (daily/Sat/Sun) is operated.
Veteran's Day is a funny "holiday". The trains run on a regular schedule for the day that it falls on, but the workers get an extra 8 hours pay for working a "holiday".
You won't see me complaining about this.
So now I think I understand where you are going with this. Are you saying that in 2000 Veterans Day was on a Saturday and in 2001 it was on a Sunday or vice versa? There is no purpose in having to pay overtime in bringing out of the house scores of train operators and conductors in running a regular weekday schedule on a Saturday or Sunday, not to mention needless, unnecessary car mileage. Back to back trains during the "rush" in places like Queens Blvd. or Lex Ave with nobody riding? Veterans Day is a regular weekday schedule only if Nov. 11th occurs on a Monday thru Friday.
The Lex is crowded on Weekends though, and the #2 train takes a long time to come, I would at least run SOME #5 trains to 238 (even less than weekdays, express or local)
But on a weekday schedule the trains are crowded at 7:30 in the morning. If you run a weekday schedule on a Sat or Sun how many people are riding at 7:30 AM? Believe it or not, mid-day service generally is at the same frequency or close to it 7 days a week. On lines like the J/M, midday schedules Mon to Fri are 10 minutes apart, yet on a Saturday they are 8 to 9 minutes apart! Check the timetables!
I always thought you could have a hybrid "midday schedule" extended all day for certain holidays. In other words, the all weekday expresses would run, but not the rush hour only services, and the headways would be like middays all day. I used to wish they would do things like this when days like Christmas Eve and New Years Eve fell on Friday, and they would run a holiday schedule, so that the C (before it was expanded to weekeknds), M, and Q would run.
On July 4th, they did use to have the M run to Chambers. (I saw this around '91 or '92. It didn't normally run there, but this was still a cross between regular weekday service and shortened weekend service.)
There are certain days like Martin Luther King Day, Good Friday, the day after Thanksgiving, Christmas & New Years Eve and perhaps a few others in which the TA runs a regular schedule which is un-necessary. They could run the regular weekday schedule (stuff like thru M service and both Q's) but without the extra rush hour service. It can indeed be done. Less workers needed would allow some to have a long weekend. Selections based on seniority of course.
Yeah, but the #5 should still go to Brooklyn and White Plains Road on those days, there are ways to incorporate some rush hour service but without all of the trains per hour.
It's ARMISTICE Day. We should not allow important dates to be overwritten.
Why aren't V-E and V-J days national holidays?
World War II was far more important than World War I.
Armistice day is of greatest importance because it marked the end of the war that was so horrific that humanity would learn from its mistake and never conduct another war.
That worked well, didn't it?
Could the Atlantic Avenue LIRR tunnel, excavated in the 1840s and "rediscovered" in the 1980s by Bob D, be used to extend LIRR service to lower Manhattan, with the present tracks extended west?
If so, a lengthy stretch of tunnel is ready-made, provided its present width could accommodate LIRR cars today.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin,
I doubt the dimensions of the tunnel would permit current LIRR equipment to use it. Any modern use would almost certainly destroy what exists of this 160-year old strcuture.
But you've got an idea there. Wouldn't a tourist operation of some kind, even if it were electric, be kinda cool?
Would the dimensions permit subway cars?
This illustration from http://www-tech.mit.edu/Subway/Tunnel/Map-large.gif shows the tunnel section as being 17 feet high at the center line and 21 feet wide.
I think that's probably even too narrow for two A division tracks, once you add the width of wayside equipment, and leaving some room sway and side clearance.
At the very least I would think there wouldn't be room for anyone to be working in the tunnel during service hours.
There's another factor in all this- I think the object was to get to lower Manhattan.
The datum level (lowest point) of the Atlantic Avenue tunnel is 12 feet above high tide.
To pass under New York harbor, a tunnel would need to be a minimum of 100 feet below the high tide level.
In other words, the AAT is way too shallow to ever serve as a "lead" to a subaqeous tunnel.
Realistically, one would have to start the down grade somewhere around Flatbush & Atlantic.
Any new tunnel would pass right below the old tunnel by nearly 8 stories.
Bob D.
But it could be used for a tunnel for your trolleys, Couldn't it, Bob?
(I hope)
For trolleys, because of their narrower body width and different clearance requirements, its not a problem.
bob d.
Bob, congrats on your Front Page coverage in 'The Brooklyn Paper'! Nice shot of the track crew at work.
At least ya got Bloomie in your corner! ;-D
There's a lot of us who have been giving it to Mayor Mike about Bob's railroad ... glad to hear he's showed up. Maybe there's some hope after all ...
Thanks!- The spikings going really well.
bob d.
Where the old LIRR trains that used the tunnel much narrower, or was it only set up for one track originally?
BTW, when was the tunnel abandoned? WHen the LIRR stopped going to the Brooklyn Waterfront?
THe tracj gage was the same, and it was built for 2 tracks BUT the car and locomotive bodies essentially had no overhang. The dynamic envelope was the track gage.
LIRR service to Brooklyn ended on September 9, 1861. The next day all LIRR service was diverted to their new terminal at Borden Avenue.
bob d.
The tunnel was sealed off in 1861, wasn't it?
The tunnel wasnt sealed up until late 1861.
A trolley tunnel wouldn't be a bad idea - anyone been to Brussels? They have really good trolley tunnels there! So how about the following:
Re-open the Atlantic Av tunnel for trolleys, stops at:
4th Av / Flatbush Av, Nevins St, Smith St, Court St, Henry St, Columbia St
I was in Brussels in 1978, but didn't know anything about trolley tunnels. I even didn't get to see Mannekin Pis.
The prémétro (trolley tunnels) and métro are described at:
http://www.metropla.net/eu/bru/brussels.htm
The thing is so old that to bring it into use with modern standards, you'd undoubtedly have to destroy what's there now.
But don't the LIRR tracks actually curve away from Atlantic Avenue at the Flatbush Avenue terminal? How do they plan to extend the line to Manhattan?
- Lyle Goldman
I believe the idea would be to usurp Flatbush Avenue altogether and have the line run much deeper under Atlantic Avenue -- to avoid the NYCT crossings at Flatbush (IRT & BMT lines) and another set of crossings at Jay/Smith Street (F/G lines) and the classic tunnel re-discovered by Bob D.
However, another thing to consider in all of this is that many LIRR-to-Flatbush riders -- if not Wall Streeters -- are employed in the Wall Street Tech-support companies found at MetroTech Center. So prehaps that was why the initial plan was to use the A/C line for LIRR equipment so that MetroTech (by Jay Street) would be a more direct route for those workers coming from Nassau & Suffolk. Just a thought...
I think the line into Manhattan would have to diverge from the existing tracks about a mile east of Flatbush Terminal in order to get deep enough to get under everything in the way. Of course, there's no reason that the existing tracks into FT couldn't be retained and some fraction of the trains continue to terminate there.
Weekend service is horrible (except possibly for Veteran's Day) with 10-15 minute headways at times 10 minutes is bad enough, but 15 minutes is ridiculous.
What would you do to improve #5 service to all terminals
I would have alternating trains (during certain times of the day) on weekends. Brooklyn service could be added, but I am thinking along the line of this
Service every 4-6 minutes between Bowling Green and E 180 Street stations and every 8-12 minutes from Brooklyn (Flatbush/Utica/Franklin/New Lots) to Dyre Ave or E 238 Street alternating at least for 2 hours out of the 3, this would increase Dyre service a bit from it's normal 10-15 minutes and it would help #2 riders waiting from 10-15 minutes on weekends (like I did last week both ways)
Brooklyn and White Plains Road Service would be in effect from
AM 8-11
PM 4-7
I wouldn't improve a thing. #5 service is fine the way it is.
Ditto that!!!! Theres no need to improve 5 service right now, especially on the weekends........
I would run the #5 to Brooklyn during mid-days and weekday evenings to 11 PM and possibly on Saturdays the hours of 7AM to 8PM. It would be an express service that would terminate at Flatbush Avenue. At the VERY least I would do the weekday service.
wayne
There's not too much you can do about 5 service I image there be more GO's in the future due to the fact that signal replacement will be going on between East 180th and 149th streets, maybe when all the signals are replaced maybe I'll talk about 5 service improvements since I live near this line.
Interesting....
I have a Hagstrom Pocket Atlas (1976) edition.
Map 1 shows lower Manhattan, and just across the east river, the Myrtle Avenue el is clearly seen on Myrtle Avenue (like where else would it be?). And what is now Casman Plaza West is named "Fulton Street"
But then tun to map 18, and the Myrtle Avenue el is gone, and Fulton Street became Cadman Plaza West.
I suppose I should get a new book because this one is all marked up with where I would have put the new subway lines back in the 70s, and interestingly enough, that is *not* where I want to put them today.
Oh well, it is cheaper for me to draw lines on a map than it is for the city to build subway routes. What a shame.
Elias
I suppose I should get a new book because this one is all marked up with where I would have put the new subway lines back in the 70s, and interestingly enough, that is *not* where I want to put them today.
As ever, Elias, you have intrigued me! Where did you want to put new lines in the 70's?
In the Bronx, I would have run many of them along MN ROWs, which as we all know now is a no-no, not to mention that the lines have their own business on them.
I have a 10th Avenue Line that does not take into account the elevations along that route.
I have a line to Co-Op City via Gun Hill Road that conects with the BORADWAY line. (My newer thoughts follow the IND second system idea of extending the D route via Burke Avenue.
In Queens, I did nothing along Norhtern Blvd but extended a line along LIE instead. (That evenutaly joined the Montauk Line and never did make it into Manhattan.
Finally, I made several Brooklyn lines branc off of the Flatbush line, and as we all know these lines and trunks are already full.
My newer plans do not permit more than two full power service on any trackway, hence all new construction needs new crossings and new trunk lines. (Ie 9th 5th 3rd 2nd, and Ave C).
Someone sent me a post card from washington DC, and so I am reminded of what a new subway could look like. Dang, but that looks like an 85' subway car, only three doors on a side though.
Elias
DC has 75 foot cars
I have yours and one from 1967. They obviously forgot to revise Map 1 when they redid the Brooklyn pages. I suppose they renamed Fulton St because it is cut off by Borough Hall.
Fulton Street was disconnected between Court Street and Boerum Place in the construction of Cadman Plaza, the part of Fulton Street to the waterfront became Cadman Plaza West, although later the section between the river and Prospect Street became Old Fulton Street.
And thus a portion of the oldest street on Royal Island was lost.
Cadman Plaza East was Washington Street.
Go to the Brooklyn Necrology at Forgotten NY for this and other streets.
I heard something about a track fire at 30th Street. AMtrak trains and NJTG were late yesterday. Chu Chu Bob- any info?
Sorry, Buffy, I wasn't in Philly yesterday.
Bob
There is a new style of annunciator at 14 and 6th- downtown side F mezz. When a train is one station away there is a three note tone with each note sounded separately followed by a male voice stating " The next downtown train is one station away. Please use care proceeding to platform" and then the tones repeat. The tones are also heard on the platform and come from the PA system speakers.
I think Dave should put SubTalk into www.nycrail.com's message board format, because it would be less confusing and everything would be under one topic, instead of everything all spread out and you have to look for all the posting (Not that I don't love SubTalk). So Dave please take this into consideration. Thanks
-AcelaExpress2005
I had thought of this too months ago. That is the format used by most boards now, it seems.
If everyone liked "The other side of the tracks" format better, don't you think everyone would have stayed there even though subtalk came back? WHy would they come here then?
I think for the most part people like this format. It all depends on what you are used to. I remember back in February, people were complaining to Harry that it should be like subtalk's format. So now it's the opposite.
For the most part there are advantages and disadvantages to both formats. Each are different and fun in their own way. TOSOTT did well in subtalk's hiatus, and after I got used to it, I really do like it also. TOSOTT allows you to scan through a topic fairly quickly. However, I do like subtalk's format also. Although subtalk takes more time, I like the fact that you can respond directly to people's posts.
Again, there are advantages and disadvantages to both, I'm glad there are two different formats.
Well better searching is needed plus a wrong word indicator would be good (highlights the word in red if it isn't in the server's dictionary).
>>> a wrong word indicator would be good <<<
Now you want a spell checker too? Use one on your computer before posting.
Tom
Spell checkers are part of the problem that people can't spell anymore. It is unbelievable how often I find on websites, emails, and forum posts terrible spelling. On the net I always find people confusing "to" and "too" and forget about contractions. Its like they never teach contractions in school anymore.
By the way, instead of a spellcheck, GET A DICTIONARY!!!
(PS: As a firm believer of Murphy's Law, I'm sure somebody will find a misspelled word in this post)
Actually I use the spell checker at http://www.spellcheck.net/. Does anyone use any other spell checkers?
Subtalk allows you to more easily recognize read messages because each message is a separate link in your browser's history.
Subtalk is one of the most successful railfan message boards on the Internet. Frequency of posting here is only exceeded (maybe) by the boards at Trainorders.com
No doubt! I've been here for four years now, I'm not going anywhere anytime soon. This is the only board for me.
wayne
>>>I think Dave should put SubTalk into www.nycrail.com's message board format, because it would be less
confusing and everything would be under one topic, instead of everything all spread out and you have to
look for all the posting (Not that I don't love SubTalk). <<<
I like Harry's board. But there's a problem: you can't see everything in one thread. If a thread has, say, 30 entries, you can only see 7 or 8, and Harry says he can't display them all.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I also like that on subtalk you can change the subject of the original thread, as it leads into a few "micro" topics.
Sorry to be nitpicky...
I have it set to 25 responses per page on my message board. I could make it larger but don't want to have people scroll through more.
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
-Harry
Yeah, I think it's good the way it is. If it's more than 25 it takes longer to load too.
But, you neglected to explain, that you can see all the posts be clicking on the bottom.
Peace,
ANDEE
If you look at the bluish colored bar at the bottom of the list of responses, you'll see little << links to previous messages. Actually I like the fact that I don't have to wade through a lot of things I've seen before and if I want to go back, I just go to the bottom and can thread right back to the beginning if I wanna ...
I've notcied that some folks have missed that though since it doesn't jump up and hit ya in the face. :)
Sorry, if you like that style so much you can feel free to use that board. I'm partial to my own code, thanks. And write a spellchecker? Come on I'm not a professional programmer. Use Word and cut and paste if you need it so badly.
By the way, something I am working on, is reintegrating the archives into the main database. But I feel it might perform too slowly. Let me know what you think. (I didn't change the "Talk" code to access them yet; but I loaded the archives database-- you should be able to feel the effects of the larger database already.)
-Dave
Ugh. It seems to be way too slow. Well I'm going to back off the database load for now. Maybe this is something we can revisit later on....
I suggest leaving the Archives off the main database. Subtalk is for now. Archives are for the past. You really don't need instant access for archived posts. The current system for Archives works fine.
I noticed that SubTalk seemed a bit sluggish this evening, but I assumed it was merely due to conditions elsewhere on the Internet. Speaking only for myself, I don't access the archives very often, so I'd rather have the increased resources available for the active board. I've got a broadband cable modem connection, so I imagine the sluggishness may be even more of a problem for somebody using a dial-up connection.
By the way, I actually prefer this format. I like being able to respond to individual posts, and this format enables me to see at a glance what new postings have appeared since my last visit.
The newer versions of WebBBS actually do have an optional spellcheck feature, but I understand you've modified your version quite a bit beyond the original WebBBS code. I don't need spellcheck very often, and when I do, I just fire up MS Word.
-- David
Chicago, IL
There's practically nothing left of original WebBBS here. It just looks the same. Also, don't think the new version is free.
You can download the main WebBBS script for free as shareware, but you need to pay the $50 registration fee in order to download a seperate administrative script that allows the admin to delete posts, move posts, etc. I'll probably go that route whenever I finish setting up some discussion boards on another website I'm working on.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't need spell-check very often, and when I do, I just fire up MS Word.
That's what I usually do if I think something may be spelt wrong. It's easy...just copy and paste your response into a word document if you feel something is wrong, let it correct it, and paste it back. It only takes a few seconds. As for typos, I think a lot of them are just typos as opposed to ignorance. When you are typing fast, you do miss a few things. Sometimes I don't even notice it until much later and think, "Why did I type that?"
They make a stand alone application that will spell check any text on your computer, no matter what application is creating it.
I figure it will just slow a computer down even more.
Elias
THIS is as good as it gets, pal.
:)
Personally I really prefer this format. As another poster stated you can respond to an individual post without it being ten posts further down. If you want to read every post in a thread you just click on "First In Thread" at the top of the page and you get the whole thread. I also like how it highlights each post you read already.
A couple of other forums I think are good are Delphi Forums and The History Channel Forums. The problem with Delphi is once you read a post it disappears from your computer and you have to search archives to read it again even if its just a couple of minutes later.
Dave: Don't ever change the format!!!
If you want to see what is in the whole tread, just click "first Message" and you will see the outline for the one thread.
Elias
I was on the L today, I saw this long gray box (at which station, I cannot remember)under the platform edge + and - about 3 feet from the 8 car marker. What's this now?
Anyone know when the Bay Ridge line was electrified. I know it was electrified when I was a kid in the 50's and 60's, so I assumed they got rid of it sometime in the 70's or 80's. I knew several kids who lost an arm or leg while playing on top of the box cars and accidentally touching the catenary wires.
I lived a few blocks from the Bay Ridge Line. I'm sure the catenary was taken down by 1974 but can't remember exactly when.
One catenary tower was left standing over by Livonia where there used to be a classification yard. It's still there -- looking pretty solid considering the years it's been unused...
There is also one at the site of the old Fremont tower in Glendale. I wonder why they took some catenary towers down and left a few others up, scattered here and there. The one where Fremont used to be also looks (or looked, I haven't been there in a while) fairly sturdy yet, considering it hadn't been painted in years. I remember in the late 80's and early 90's that area around Fremont used to be so interesing ( I have some great photos of the abandoned Fremont in the years before they took it down), and you could just walk around there, and walk over to the bridge over the Montauk Branch, near Pond Tower. Then Fremont came down, Pond got turned into a LIRR freight office, and finally the NYA took over. The NYA is alot more interested in security, and there are a lot more trains through there anyway.
Some of the catenary supports can still be seen under the Gowanus Expwy. at 5th Avenue. The Gowanus was built 1962-1964, so it was after that.
www.forgotten-ny.com
They ripped out the wires about 1970- same time P.C. stopped using the float bridges at Bay Ridge.
There used to be an impromptu enginehouse under the Ocean Avenue bridge. It was last used by the wire department, and had "NOS" ceramic insulators, huge turnbuckles, etc.
Along the ROW were several badly bent up PRR postion light signals. I recall one was near Brooklyn College.
bob d.
Does the Bay Ridge Line have any kind of signal system now?
- Lyle Goldman
No, I think it is all by train orders now.
I went over the Bay Ridge today riding the F. Jeez, how do they get any trains through there with all the garbage.
Speaking of garbage, the Fulton St terminus of the Franklin Shuttle is now rapidly filling up with refuse.
It is obvious that without severe penalties for littering...and the NYPD has more pressing concerns these days...the public will continue to be bound and determined to continue treating railroad cuts as Fresh Kills East.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It was electrified at the same time the Hell Gate bridge was completed- I think that was about 1919.
Yep, touching 33,000 volts can be a real drag. Same thing used to happen in Sunnyside.
bob d.
11,000 volts! why 33,000?
Wasnt 33KV what they used on top of the catenery towers- for the medium distance power transmission? I think the 11KV was only the contact wire voltage.
At the point where the Bay Ridge line crossed under the Brighton Line, I remember there was one tower that was marked "DANGER- 33KV".
bob d.
What street did the Fulton El use to get from Pitkin to Liberty?
IIRC, Euclid.
How many Subtalkers remember when the Fulton EL crossed over Conduit Blvd. at Pitkin? I remember it from the mid 1950's. My dad used to drive us from Ridgewood to go fishing out in Oceanside several times each summer and then one year, the EL was gone! Too bad I never took any pictures (but then, I was only 5-7 years old!)
Actually, wasn't that were the first turn was? My map shows the intersection of Pitkin and Euclid also intersects at or near S.Conduit Avenue
wayne
I remember SO well the sight of the Fulton Street El crossing over Conduit Boulevard! Used to pass it regularly while riding with my family as a youngster, and I, too, recall how one day it was simply gone. Happily, I've also got some great memories of riding the C-Types over that section of the line, sitting in the front-facing "railfan" seat of the lead car.
Just curious. The picture below is from this website under "C" Types. Is that where it crossed the conduit? The reason I ask is because of the old style "Robert Moses" wooden parkway light, and the Conduit is sort of an extension of the Belt. Also, the width of the street and the center island.
Very interesting photo. Amazing how it has changed!
I was lucky also to share that experience; also lucky that the death of the 3rd ave el in Manhattan sent me chasing around the city to ride other wooden car els so I discovered Fulton and the C types.Also the BU's on Myrtle. I had the good fortune also to make one trip[only one] on the l300 series BU's on that line. I had one special memory of my 8 months of railfanning Fulon. One of the rare occasions as a nerdy 12year old railfan, adult height at that age, to have a pretty young lady about my age smiling at me..and her mother seeming to approve!
One of the rare occasions as a nerdy 12year old railfan, adult height at that age, to have a pretty young lady about my age smiling at me..and her mother seeming to approve!
One of the things that can make a railfan forget the trains too.......
The Fulton El actually crossed over Conduit at Liberty Ave, not Pitkin. The El was completing its turn off Euclid onto Liberty when it passed over Conduit. The west end of the Crescent St station on Liberty was hardly a stone's throw from Conduit,
Incidentally, the gate cars looked a lot better on that line than the C types ever did.
Paul Matus is correct; it was Euclid Avenue.
wayne
Just curios, hom many tacks was it? I couldn't see from the pics.
Two tracks all the way from Pitkin & Van Sinderen to City Line.
wayne
Correct. Just thought I'd volunteer that past city line which was actually the old Brooklyn City line, beyond was Queens county at the time.Still is of course, but part of NYC. the line was extended to Lefferts via Liberty on the present 3 track structure sometime in l9l7 or thereabouts.Which is today and since May 56 the A line. The City Line station in its later years was called Grant Ave.
but part of NYC
You mean occupied by NYC.
Just saw on Ch.5 news *(10:22) PM - a preview for a model railroader, showing off his model Lo-V! Wonder what else he's got up his sleeve. Must check this one out
wayne
Just saw it ... WOW ... NICE Arnines ... nice wooden el cars too. Wish they had made the package longer though ...
Yep, he even had a set of Clark Bluebs, and also R17's 6688 and 6786 too. You're right, it was too short!
wayne
Yep, saw those too - signed up as Canarsie. Also saw the gate car sideswipe the R9 ... seemed almost like a model version of me and Unca BMTman going at it on adjacent tracks at Branford. Heh.
Wonder how much footage Fox5 actually shot and if they'd be willing to let go of the "work reel" for a dub. Nice stuff, wish I could see it up close. Nate made some NICE toys there ... especially got a kick out of the "fresh blotter" in the schoolcar. :)
Nate and his models will be at the Model Transit Show on June 1!
Kendall Park, NJ.....
Be there!!!!
Steve Olsen
NYC Model Transit Association
http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm
Myself and several other Sub-Talkers will be there.....Thurston is trying to arrange carpools. The last show two years ago was great. Hopefully this one will be better.
How many R-143's are there so far in NYC?
I live 5 stops from Broadway Junction, where the R-143's reside. I see 4 sets of 4 sometimes in the yard. I think there must be a few more. From time to time I will see 2 Full length R-143's in the AM on my way to work. I cant give you an exact #. But I hope this helps.
I take the A Train everyday and past Broadway Junction everday, but sadly since I'm underground I can't catch no R-143's on the L Line.
-AcelaExpress2005
The highest number I have seen in ENYD is 8168. But there are a few in 207th St. which haven't been transfered yet.
8172 was in the back of the ENY barn a few weeks ago, and I assume it was still there today (8101-4 was in front).
The r9s at ci, when was the last time they were used.
Probably when they were moved.
BTW They also have an R16 there, #6305 - and it's now wearing its original Olive Green livery, so some progress has been made on that front.
wayne
Good news about the R16..........
Yes, that is indeed good news, but I have no idea whether or not she is operational. She's sitting up there with the rest of the classic cars. Not long ago, this car was still wearing graffitti grey and blue, looking very forlorn. Looks much better now. They have probably seen to her body work too. Couldn't see what sign she was wearing.
One of my dreams is to see a working trainset (4 cars) of R-16; they could do it if they borrowed #6398 from NYTM, and got the other three (#6305, #6339, #6387) up and running.
wayne
And would be out of service (broke) in 2 hours :)
Ah, yes, the R16 had its shortcomings in later years, didn't it! I would then nominate the TMNY-overhauled #6398 to serve as lead motor. I have heard that they have a fairly reliable subway car out if her.
I don't recall much breaking down of the R16 in mid-life (early-to-mid-60s), they ran on the Jamaica #15 line then; It was when they begain to age (in the late 70s and on into the 80s) that they showed their weaknesses. They could barely be kept running, espeially the 6400s.
Still, they occupy a spot on my favorite subway cars list. They combined classic features of the R-10 with more up-to-date ideas, like axiflo fans, PA systems, larger side signs, etc.
wayne
Don't get me wrong, as a Eastern Division fan, I LOVE the R-16...I think as they aged their biggest problem wasn't their design, it was that smaller fleets (witness the R-38) don't fare well in a train system where 1000 or 2000 cars aren't uncommon. Lack of spare parts, etc.
The R-16 was a great car.
The GE R-16s were HORRENDOUS and they were the heaviest single cars, I think, at 60,000 lbs.
Oddly enough, it was the R-16s that came out to replace the R-46s when the R-46s were removed from service due to their cracked Rockwell trucks ....
--Mark
Try 85,000 pounds for a typical R-16. Yes, they were the heaviest single unit 60-footers.
Since you mention the 6400's they were the GE control r16's and the were indeed dogs in mid-late life. The 6300 Westinghouse ones ran a lot better. I guess that GE system that the R17,21 and 22 also had needed TLC they did manage to keep 1100 of the IRT version going for quite some time though. Not that the IRT wasn't a fleet of cripples in te 70's either.[I worked the IRT off and on l970-75]
Sign me up if there is a fantrip of R16's. I hope they are able to get 4 up and running.
The reason I became fascinated by them is I barely ever got to ride them, much less see them. And there were so few - only 200. I think it was the porthole window in the stormdoor that I fell in love with.
I grew up in Gravesend - between the F Culver and the N Sea Beach. If I rode the F into the city, I'd see them at 4th Avenue on the GG. If I rode the N into the city, I'd see them on the EE. I'd also see them from the Van Wyck on weekends in the IND yard coming back from my Grandmother's in the Bronx.
I think for awhile in the mid-seventies the 6400's put some service on the F. From a distance, I thought the F got some R27's - R30's. Then in 1976, a few were assigned to the N and that's the first time I got to ride them. They were starting to really get in bad shape by that time.
I think the 6400's were put out to pasture in 1983 - I remember seeing them on the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch near Linden Blvd in East New York.
But if they could get 4 running again, that would be something - even if it broke down during the trip!
From 1969 through 1976, the R16 pretty much ruled the roost on the "EE" and "GG" lines. When the "EE" morphed into the "N" in 1976, a few R16 were left holding the assignment; these were replaced by R46s and the R16 were odd cars out. Yes, I did ride them on the "F" a few times in '73 and '74; a note in my grey book indicates that one set was replacing a vandalized (graffittied?) set of R44s.
My notes show 6405,6418,6427,6495,6416,6433,6457,(NYTM)6398,6466 and 6409 (wearing an outrageous coat of paint) (south motor first), August 1973.
wayne
I remember some R9's on the EE line. Was that from 1967 to about 1971?
When the "EE" first began service in December 1968, it was almost entirely Jamaica fleet R-6/R-7, with SOME higher numbered (700,800) R-4 sprinkled in. The R16 showed up in '69 as the R40 and R40M began arriving, causing car shifts in their wake.
wayne
I stand corrected regarding the service start date in the previous post - December 1967. Just typed in the wrong number.
wayne
First off, PLEASE don't take any offense by my observations here - I'm actually sincerely amazed by the details of your car number record-keeping ... when I WORKED there, it didn't really faze me whether a particular car was an R4 or an R9. Aside from little details like brass in some, crap in another, split window on the door or solid (or with or without MESH in the glass) they were all pretty much the same to me as a motorman. UNLESS I had to write one up for blaspheming me in front of my geese. :)
In all sincerity (not kidding) I'm really impressed that someone actually bothered to dissect the consists into sets ... those of us who ran them didn't really care what "R" they were unless we had to drop dime on them.
Wayne is the ultimate carspotter. Ask him about the R-4 D train with a bunch of dead motors he took in September of 1970 or the solid R-1 B train in 1969. He'll give you every car number in each consist.
Hey Wayne, what were the rest of the cars in that F train headed by 1233 which got up to A-440?
R4's, all dead motors in September of 70 suggests that Unca Wayne might have actually been on *my* D train that day. If it was a rush hour run, chances are quite good.
Nope, it was Saturday, September 12, 1970, somewhere between 7 and 8 PM. We got routed up the express due to some kind of road works going on round about Newkirk on the Local track but even so it was a death-march, even more so up the grade to the Bridge. Even the fan blades were turning at half-speed and the bulbs were rather dim. Even in their dotage, I missed those old-timers. The north motor was #561.
wayne
Wow ... coming out to play on a non-rush was unusual for them by that time. And yeah, dunno what it was about the BMT but the voltage was never quite right, especially on the Brighton line. As soon as they'd get into IND country, you'd see the fans turning at near proper speed and the lights brightening up on those.
But it wasn't unusual at the time to cut and add until you had 6 motors for every 4 dead ones. Most of the R1's had no motors at all, not even deadweight on the trucks. Many had become dual trailers underneath. And when a motor went away on ya on those things, the breakers rarely brought them back.
I'm rather surprised though that they'd be out on a Saturday. Not shocked mind ya, but they usually had more than enough 32's so the girls could stay home on weekends.
You could still find a weekend prewar D train on rare occasions back then. I know I rarely ever saw any once the R-32s took over base service on the D. The last time I rode on a prewar D train was in December of 1969. Luckily we had some time before our bus left Port Authority, so I stayed on board for a CPW express jaunt. This train was lively and moved along at a good clip, bull and pinion gears singing away at F# above middle C. And there were no headlights, so the tunnel I-beams became silhouettes. When it came time to get off that train, I did so with great reluctance.
Heh. They probably threw yer arse off for slipping and falling in the foam. Can't sheet a Bronx boy ya know. :)
It turned out I didn't have as much time for a joyride as I thought. I bailed at 125th St. and changed to a southbound A. Little did I know as I watched that D train moan and groan out of the station that I would never see another one again.
The concourse rise up to 167th northbound was as much work for them as the run up the bridge. Chances are it was running local at the time since that trip up the hill without stopping until Tremont is one of them PM tour things. :)
I've ridden on the n/b Concourse express lots of times. Haven't done it lately - it's become too boring.
Heh. Well, once upon a time before you'd get written up for "beating the rails" that was a decent ride too. But to REALLY enjoy it, there was nothing like the 6:35am run - first train cleared for center track southbound and you KNOW there's nothing ahead of you at all. Wrap it, drop reverser and shoot the yellers. :)
Back in the 70's there were a number of decent express runs on the D, even at BMT voltage.
Believe it or not, I never even rode on the Brighton line until sometime in the mid to late 80s. I still get a big kick out of seeing the Empire State Building looming dead ahead after leaving Sheepshead Bay on a Manhattan-bound express.
I still get a big kick out of seeing the Twin Towers leaving Smith/9th, even if they aren't actually there anymore.
I always had a fondness for the Brooklyn end of my runs. Having seen the Sea Bits, West End, Culver and other lines, the Brighton was always the most interesting of them all, at least to me a Bronx boy. And yes, there's nothing prettier than a northbound into the sun as it hides behind the skyline of NYC. WTC was still going up at the time so my memories are of Empire, Chrysler and other buildings and it was pretty as all get out when the sun was just right. Only wish the R9's had sun visors. :)
Steve, not to disappoint but by that time ('73), pretty much the entire R-4 thru R-9 fleet had been spotted and logged, and all I was doing was taking in the lead motor and the car that I was riding in or passing through. In the case of #1233, I show #1086 and #1117 as having been through as I made my way up to the head to get a view, and was well rewarded. That one only shows three cars.
wayne
I take it that means you didn't get the consist headed by 1277 on 9/11/73 then.:-(
There are some pictures here on the website of R16's holding down the F. I was 8 or 9 years old at the time, and thought they were R27-R30's at first.
How were the R-16s on the Hillside express? They couldn't have compared with 1233 getting up to A-440 or R-10 3080.
6339 also reposes in CI yard right behind 6305.
--Mark
For revenue service I would say in the 1970's when these trains ran on the J Line and were painted an awful blue and white, and finally they made their last appearance on the old 8 th Avenue local the CC.I think they were retired around 1976-77.
The R16's or the R9's?
I thought that the last "bastion" for the old R1-9's was the Eastern Division. Was the last run on the CC?
As far as I know the last run of this car type was on the "J", shortly after they had dropped the "Q". The "CC's" last run of pre-war (R-type) cars was I think in 1976, and was R-6 and low-order R-7 cars.
wayne
Were there any more R4s on the "CC" in 1976?
Very few if any; most of the R-4 were gone by 1972 or so; I have a box full of their brass dog-tags, maybe about 50 of them. My Dad picked them off as they went to slaughter up at 207 Street
wayne
If you have 401, 484, 923 or 925 please contact me. Thank you.
-Mark
I have the following:
394,403,410,416, 429,430, 433, 436,445,473,483,488,492,493,499,
512,517,520,525,526,530,548,550,564,567,568,570,572,598,
601,644,658,672,681,694,696,
707,714,717,726,723,728,731,736,738,743,771,778,791,794,798,
801,802,803,826,827,835,843,874,877,889,896,
912,964
AND I have wrecks 986, R10 3062 (collision-mates, 7/17/1970)
and wreck R10 3333.
AND r12 5711
wayne
I also have 761 and 777
wayne
You never told me you had all those number plates.:-)
Bet you wish you had 1233 or 1277.
I can't begin to read all the posts so if nobody else has said so: as some R6 thru 9 became heavy bad order or were wrecked many R4 cars, and one R1 [369 renumbered up twice to become 1768] survived until the end. So some R4 and one R1 were around and running until the end in early 1977.I don't remember them all but for two, 1458 and 1593 were really R4's.
I'm curious as to why they even bothered to renumber any R-1/9s.
I would suppose that since first R44 then R46 were taking up the numbers vacated by retirment [such a nice way of putting it] of R1-9's that they vacated the number slots for the new cars and kept the existing fleet of R1-9 within the framework. If nothing else it was nice to see some of the R4's and by spotting feature even an R-1 runnig around with an alias.
I'll buy that. Of course, the dead giveaway would be the single large pane of glass on the storm door. Only the R-1s and R-4s had them.
There were also shenanigans ongoing at CIY at the time with PLATE SWAPS on cars ... some swaps were done because some cars had been in the shop far longer than they should have been for repairs and management was tallying car numbers vs "time to return" and plates were moved to cover up cars that had been there for months and had never been serviced. Another thing ongoing was there were some better cars marked for extinction so it wasn't unusual for them to take the plates off a doomed car that was still useable and placing it on a "dog" with multiple problems slated to live. And I heard this straight from the shop foreman who was revelling in management's inability to figure out the scam. :)
From the pics on this site, the R6's ended their days on the E & F, and they disappeared after the E/C terminal switch in late '76.
The R-9's ran on the J,M,L,KK, and CC and made a final run on the CC and retired around 1976-77
The last revenue R-9 trip was on March 31, 1977. A put-in J train ran from 168th St. to Broad St., then ran light to Coney Island. By the end of the year, 1689 had found refuge at Shoreline.
The last run of the R7/R9 cars was on the J line in March 1977. The older R6 types lasted into late 1976 on the IND and were replaced by the new R46's.
As far as running with passengers, they ran back in 1982 for the 50th Anniversary of the IND Subway. They ran on the (AA) Eighth Ave local from WTC to 59th St. It ran as a shortened regular (AA) picking up everyday passengers. The looks on their faces were priceless !!
Hard to believe that was some twenty years agp.
Bill "Newkirk"
Given the awful condition of the modern subway cars then in use in 1982, they probably preferred riding the older cars.
I'll bet even the side destination signs were illuminated. They still were back in the spring of 1967.
This is just a Fantasy Dream of mines but, I would love to the MTA make some R-144 that look similar to the R-44's but has advanced computer systems and has more Horsepower to speed up the take off time with the 75' Cars. And these trains has a smooth ride just like the Amtrak Trains, you won't feel when it starts to leave a station. Like I said this is just a fantasy dream of mines.
-AcelaExpress2005
Hey i kinda agree with you at that I love the R44 , R46 look even though its retro 70s lol. What i really would like to see is instead of these R143s. They should make them look like the 110B. The 110B is a beauty. Awesome interior , strip maps the whole works, i also love the seating arrangement. 110B are 67' footers they should replace the old 60" cars that are close to retirement (R38s, 40s ,42s). and replace them with 67" foot cars they can go anywhere in the system. The old BMT standards were 67" and they had no problem in the Eastern Division. And i would like all future trains to have the front roll signs, there easier to see and look nicer then the red LED crap on the 142s , 143s. But i agree with you I would like an R44 remake but without the shotty construction , automatic annoucements and the whole nine complete with the blue strips the 44 and 46s got when they were new.
And railfan seat like PATH!
"And i would like all future trains to have the front roll signs, there easier to see and look nicer then the red LED crap on the 142s , 143s."
I'm not advocating for either side but I'd just like to comment that I saw the LEDs from the train when I was coming into LaGuardia on a plane over 241 St. The sign made the whole train stand out. You could almost see the #2. NOT KIDDING. If anybody can guess how many feet up I was, since I can't be too sure. It had to be at least 2000.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that the R-68 will be the last of the 75 foot cars.
and the 110b will be the last 67
My understanding was that the subway was bumpier than the Amtrak because the subway rails and ties sit on top of concrete, which does not cushion blows terribly well. That said, I'm sure there's a lot that can be done with the latest in shock absorber technology.
Maybe I haven't been looking closely enough. But I just wanted to know if anyone from this message borad was going on that FanTrip dated for 5-27.
I forgot what was on the other end, but 8157 was in the consist (at the end). Here's a pic I took at Union Square, funny though. I was on a brooklyn bound L to catch the G at Lorimer. I see at 3rd avenue when the doors are open that the R143 is there, I run off and I hope it's in service. Nope, testing.
The stuff on the right column said "COMMUNICATIONS RECEIVED" for the most part.
What time was this taken? I was on that train from 5-11 tonight.
Taken around 2ish.
Any good ideas on how to get there from NYC? I've been to Garden State Plaza that's a pretty easy trip, A train to GWB then the 171 bus, or the 163 from 42nd street PABT. Willowbrook also pretty easy to get to with numerous bus routes that are express to the mall's park and ride.
But is there a direct route to Short Hills? Am I better off with an NJT train?
I wouldn't care but I hear Short Hills is a pretty unique place.
Also is it true that Hudson Bergen light rail might run to Garden state plaza in the future?
What you could do is take the Morris & Essex division to Summit, then connect with the #70 bus.
You should also try the Palisades Center via Rockland Coaches/Coach USA #20 (from PABT). It's a nice (long) ride and it goes directly to the mall.
do you know what gate that 20 bus leaves from in the port authority?im dying to find out.that palisades center mall is good from what i hear,the 2nd largest mall in America.that perks my interest like crazy.
#20 departs Lane 220, PABT.
(Very limited service from GWB, but only as far as Tappan or Pearl River).
Single fare is $5.85 and buses depart generally every hour or so.
Check our CoachUSA/Rockland Coaches for more information.
Of course, why would the hyperlink work?!?
WWW.REDANDTANLINES.COM ... type it in yourself, old school syle! ;-)
I've already checked all that info out weeks ago,i just didnt know what gate the bus departs from.
What TOR lines run to the mall from Spring Valley and / or Suffern? I know the Tappan Zee Express stops there, but I've never seen anyone use it to get from Spring Valley to the mall so I know another route must do that as well...
plus there's also the Nanuet Mall by taking the Rockland County'Coach USA bus route 11C from the GWB.i plan on going there someday,i hope its a good mall.and no matter how good it is,it pales in comparison to the Palisades Center Mall,of that i am most certain of.
you can take the Path train from 33rd St to Newark and take the 70 bus there,when are you planning on going to this mall?i plan on going to the Livingston Mall but when i have enough money.taking an NJT train is a waste of money.also,which mall is better Livingston or Short Hills?
Livingston is kinda small and pretty simple. Short Hills is larger, but immensely upscale, considered one of the most upscale malls in the country!
Oddly, neither mall has an actual food court! (random eateries and restaurants do of course exist)
Short Hills is better I think, I've heard anyway. I'd rather take the train to the #70 bus, I'd rather not have to go into Newark. Isn't Newark kinda dangerous?
I've never been there before except for doing some PATH railfanning from then WTC to Newark and back.
I suppose if the #70 bus is close to the PATH station that's the best choice.
>>>>>>>>I'd rather not have to go into Newark. Isn't Newark kinda dangerous?
Oh absolutely. In fact, if the Newark natives even get a glimpse of you, they'll rob you and steal your sneakers. You know what their motto is: "Get Whitey".
Give me a break.
LOL
On a similar subject, #4 Sea Beach Fred and I rode the Franklin Avenue Shuttle yesterday. No sneakers were stolen from our feet!!
On a similar subject, #4 Sea Beach Fred and I rode the Franklin Avenue Shuttle yesterday. No sneakers were stolen from our feet!!
Well, there's only one explanation for that: You must have been barefoot :-)
Cmmon I'm just not familiar with that area!
I'm opting for the PATH to NJT bus route anyway, since I like the PATH ride to Newark and the bus terminal is near Newark Penn station.
It's just too bad I can't take PATH from WTC. I sure do miss that place. :-(
its right there,from the Path station you gotta walk to to Newark Penn Station which i pretty much think its in the same facility as the Path station.Path is only $1.50 and the ride from Newark to Short Hills Mall is about $2.55,exact fare.so why the hell pay like $10-$20 for a ticket on an NJT train when you can pay a total of $6.10 round trip.that makes more sense.
Yeah sounds good I'll take PATH to Newark and the bus from there.
I like the PATH ride anyway, that front window view west of Journal Square is the best!
I haven't been on PATH since before Sept.11th, how frequent is service to Newark with the single tube?
about the same as it was before Sep 11th when Path trains ran from 33rd St-Journal Square,bout 10mins between trains and i would guess about a 30min trip at least.
I tried that ride once, and you are on the bus for a long time. The NJT train trip takes less time, so if you want to save money, get out there early, if money is no object, take the NJT train. By the way, if you want to shop at that mall, money had better not be an object, because you will need lots of it to buy anything there - the prices will give you serious sticker shock. My American Express card almost went AWOL.
Not shopping there, just walking around and enjoying the architecture, and maybe getting something to eat.
Yeah the bus ride is long, but money is an object to me, if the bus/PATH way is cheaper by more than a few dollars I'll do it.
As for hour long bus rides, I have it all the time with the N21.
like i said before,the round trip fare on the bus and Path train is about 6 bucks.far less than if you took the NJT train,so the Path train/70 bus combo is a whole lot better.besides it maybe an hour and 10 min ride,but it should be enjoyable.
dont worry im just gonna walk around the mall,take a look at everything and buy my lunch.after that i'll make my way to the Livingston Mall and check that out.
... I'd rather not have to go into Newark. Isn't Newark kinda dangerous?
Certain neighborhoods at 3 AM, probably so... but since I doubt you're planning to go there to rob a drug dealer, you'll be OK. I was in Newark, just a few blocks from Penn Station, at 5:30 yesterday morning to pick up a fellow operator at Branford and certainly didn't feel threatened, even though I had to walk some distance from where I parked my van to his tenement.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yeah the Willowbrook has many options,the 191,194,195,197 from the PABT,the 11/28,75 from Newark and the 712 from Hackensack via the 178/182 from New York(GWB).there are quite a few other malls you can try out.the Jersey Gardens Mall by taking bus #111 from the PABT.Harmon Cove Outlet Mall with bus route 129,Woodbridge Center Mall with route 62 from Newark,Hamilton Mall by route 319 to Atlantic City with a transfer to the 553 bus,which i think must be really cool.
The Freehold Mall with bus route 139 from PABT or the 64 from Hoboken.
the Newport Center Mall;my personal favorite; using the Path train. those are all the malls im gonna try and go to,Newport Center the only exception,Willowbrook ive been there once but i liked it so much i wanna go again.by the way,how does the Garden State Plaza look like?I've never been there before.Is it like Kings Plaza in Brooklyn?
GS Plaza is an all-around nice place. It's big, not overwhelmingly massive like Palisades Center, and a little upscale, but not downright snooty like Short Hills.
It's also where I work! (Borders Books & Music).
wow you work there? cool,maybe when i have enough to go there i'll go and see you.
Garden State Plaza is the best mall I've ever seen. It's huge, has a great food court, nice stores, and is only 30 minutes or less from GWB.
BTW, it's not called the "Short Hills Mall". It's called...now make sure your nose is up in the air when you say this..."The Mall at Short Hills"!!
you can also go to njtransit.com and look at the bus schedule for the 70.it'll help.
There is a cheaper option that would help LIRR riders get to lower Manhattan, one that involves almost no digging...using the Nassau Street/Jamaica Line. From what I understand the majority of LIRR trains terminate at Penn and Jamaica is a big transfer station. Yet, LIRR riders rarely transfer to the J/Z line at Sutphin Blvd. This is what I'm proposing (some of you may have seen this before):
1. Construct (or rebuild) a middle express track between Cypress Hills through 121 Street. Leave the B'way Junction-Crescent stretch alone and maintain skip-stop service through that stretch. I would have the express tracks connect with the two local tracks west of Marcy, turning it into a local station.
2. Realign the 4 tracks between Essex and Chambers into a traditional express-local configuration. Make it possible to switch onto the middle tracks from the local tracks. The middle tracks at both Bowery and Canal would be walled off from the rest of the station and the horseshoe at Canal would be broken. The result, the express train would skip both Bowery and Canal in both directions. The middle track at Essex could be used for the Nassau Express trains heading to Queens.
3. South of Chambers, the two express tracks would merge with the local tracks. The express train would continue to Broad St.
The advantages would be many:
1. The Z would be the Nassau/Jamaica Express train, and would have priority over any other train. On a peak-direction express run it would only stop at Jamaica Center, Sutphin Blvd, Crescent St, Norwood Av, Van Siclen Av, Broadway Junction, Myrtle Ave, Essex St, Chambers St, Fulton St, and Broad St. If done correctly the Z could rip through this run in about 30 minutes. Of course, on a reverse peak direction it would be local in Brooklyn and Queens (save for the skip-stop section).
2. A Jamaica Express train would also provide a viable alternative to the E in Queens (we all know how subway riders, particularly Queens riders, love express trains). Those that want to head downtown would be better off using the Z.
3. Those on the Jamaica Line wanting to head to downtown could use the Z instead of transferring to the A (and crowding that line) at B'way Junction.
4. Those heading towards midtown from the Jamaica Line can now get to Essex Street quicker to transfer to 6th Av Service.
One disadvantage I see is that unless the M goes to Brooklyn while the Z is operating, turning trains at Broad Street would be an adventure.
What do you guys think? As always comments, critiques and questions are welcolmed.
The thing which makes the Jamaica Line slow is the double curve between Crescent St and Cypress Hills. This could relatively easily be sorted by a new stretch of El directly from Broadway Junction to Cypress Hills, with no intermediate stops. Cypress Hills on the Local could become a stub terminal if the station were moved slightly in this sort of shape:
###########
<>>Express>>
###########
T#T
|#|
|#| Local Terminus
|#|
|X|
The extra tracks South of Chambers I understand to be on a gradient so that they may get onto the Brooklyn Bridge as the BMT had originally intended. It is rather a shame that this plan was never carried out because it would have in effect given two loops:
Myrtle - Broadway - Nassau - Myrtle
Broadway - Nassau - Myrtle - Lexington - Broadway
Imagine the clockwise and counter-clockwise M and J trains :D
As things stand, however, the M would need to go to Brooklyn. Perhaps it could be a second Bay Ridge Local, or, specially for Fred, a Sea Beach Express!
One final thought if such express service had the intention of attracting midtown riders, offering them a one seat ride might be a good idea. The Christie St Connection Could be used to make the V a Jamaica Express.
Running the V as a Jamaica Express is a pretty good idea. I don't know though if it'll beat the F heading into midtown (from Queens), particularly to the core stations of 34, 42, and 47-50th. If the V isn't faster than (or as fast as) the F, passnegers might still crowd the F and not use the V.
My original intention was to offer LIRR riders an alternative to getting to downtown. Another intention was to ease overcrowding on both the Queens Blvd. and Fulton Lines, by making the Jamaica line a real option. Unless the MTA builds an express track between 121 and Cypress Hills, these ridership patterns will not change.
My original intention was to offer LIRR riders an alternative to getting to downtown. Another intention was to ease overcrowding on both the Queens Blvd. and Fulton Lines, by making the Jamaica line a real option. Unless the MTA builds an express track between 121 and Cypress Hills, these ridership patterns will not change.
Quite, hence I would favour a track connection at Sutphin to allow thru expresses. I wonder if the FRA would oblige me with a waiver?
My fault, I should have been more specific... I'm proposing that east of 121 the middle express track would merge (again) with the two local tracks and share the tracks to Jamaica Center.
If one wants to get people off the LIRR onto the Jamaica line one should at least give them a one seat ride. Built correctly, an express Jamaica Line running 9tph would be the best possible. 3 tph could continue to Long Beach, 3tph to West Hempstead and 3tph to Far Rockaway where a transfer to the A train should be available. The Nassau Line is set up with excellent terminal facilities for such a train and it would finally return to the Jamaica Line part of its original purpose.
The problem is though that because of regulations, heavy rail and subway can not run together on the same tracks, so the Jamaica line is out. The Nassau Line is possible though, as the LIRR could use the center tracks. Someone had suggested one day replacing the Manhattan bridge to a tunnel with a level for the LIRR (simialr to 63rd St) and sending the LIRR down through to Canal and terminating at Chambers at the Center platform. That at least possible because . As for the LIRR on the Jamaica/Broadway el once again --- that isn't even remotely possible.
The problem is though that because of regulations, heavy rail and subway can not run together on the same tracks, so the Jamaica line is out.
1. Regulations can be repealed. Exceptions can be made.
2. The point would be that "heavy" railcars would not be allowed on the West Hempstead, Long Beach, or Rockaway Branches. All subway trains would run via Locust Manor, all LIRR trains would run via St Alban's. The subway would have the southern pair of tracks as far as Lynbrook, with a flyover or flyunder constructed for the West Hempstead branch.
<<>>
Yeah, but your point was to "send them along the Jamaica Line like they used to" What would happen to the subway cars there running with the LIRR trains?
Sorry, the previous post is supposed to look like this, I was using the "<<<" like we use on Harry's board......
The point would be that "heavy" railcars would not be allowed on the West Hempstead, Long Beach, or Rockaway Branches. All subway trains would run via Locust Manor, all LIRR trains would run via St Alban's
Yeah, but your point was to "send them along the Jamaica Line like they used to" What would happen to the subway cars there running with the LIRR trains?
Yeah, but your point was to "send them along the Jamaica Line like they used to" What would happen to the subway cars there running with the LIRR trains?
You misunderstand me. Some Long Island destinations should be served from the Jamaica Line. Subway cars should be used, as 85 foot cars would never fit anyway. LIRR cars should therefore not be used on certain parts of the LIRR to enable Subway use.
I'm sorry, I misread your intentions, and was thinking the opposite!!!
"My original intention was to offer LIRR riders an alternative to getting to downtown. Another intention was to ease overcrowding on both the Queens Blvd. and Fulton Lines, by making the Jamaica line a real option. Unless the MTA builds an express track between 121 and Cypress Hills, these ridership patterns will not change."
See World Trade Station
Also see: Making the Crooked Ways Straight...
: ) Elias
Elias -
I very much like your idea of the S-curve bypass on the Jamaica Line. I have come up with a similar plan myself, but with the Local line terminating at a stub terminal at Cypress Hills at 90 degrees to a new express station, for easier interchange.
This line, however, would still have a nasty curve at Broadway Junction and would therefore be limited in terms of speed in that area.
A peak direction express would work well. Adding a third track to the Cypress Hills section would allow the following services:
( J ) Jamaica Center, all stops to Broadway Junction, then peak direction express to Marcy Av, then all stops to Broad St.
< J > As ( J ) but Peak Direction Express throughout, stopping Jamaica Center, Sutphin, Cypress Hills, Broadway Junction etc.
( Z ) Cypress Hills to Chambers St Local.
"This line, however, would still have a nasty curve at Broadway Junction and would therefore be limited in terms of speed in that area. "
I don't see why this is so, they have the whole dang yard to make that transition over.
Elias
Yes, but there needs to be some way of easy local - express interchange.
My original intention was to offer LIRR riders an alternative to getting to downtown. Another intention was to ease overcrowding on both the Queens Blvd. and Fulton Lines, by making the Jamaica line a real option. Unless the MTA builds an express track between 121 and Cypress Hills, these ridership patterns will not change
-What ever happened to the idea they were tossing around about adding a third track to the Jamaica Line?
-Also, what was the original intent when they built the Jamaica line with all "local" stations? I believe there were no "express" type stations from 168th all the way to where the old part of the line starts at Crecsent St. That would have been one "super-express"!
-It could be a real alternative to the QB overcrowding if they did add a third track and adding a single track "bypass" from Cypress Hills to Broadway Junction. I feel however that Woodhaven and either Cypress Hills or Crecsent would need to become express stations to allow for some intermediate neighborhoods to benefit from the express track.
Especially Woodhaven. That area seems to be thriving.
It would take quite a bit of construction to build an express station out of Woodhaven, but I believe it would be possible. As fo Cypress Hills, it could be done easier. All they would have to do is build a single platform "express" station a little past the current "local" station on the new single track "bypass", the locals could just use the current station. Woodhaven would be a lot harder, but Woodhaven is the mor important one.
I can't understand why the whole line was built as "local" stations. If the express track was put in, the Jamaica line would have rivaled the express run of the IND A line! Picture it, 168th to Crescent with no stops, speeding along the el! I would also assume that they were probably planning to rebuild the Alabama to Cypress Hills portion of the line to Dual System standards, when they rebuilt the Broadway el, and built the Jamaica el.
I just don't understand, seeing that they builtthe Jamaica portion with a provision for a third track that they didn't build Woodhaven with the provision for an express stop. (sort of like they did for Wyckoff on the M when they thought that the L line may be elevated with the M at Wyckoff. There of course the "express" track was built, but it is a similar idea.)
Q Exp:
I think the whole point of turning the Cranberry Tunnels over to the LIRR is to give LIRR riders the option of one seat ride into lower Manhattan. These people are not going to get off at Jamaica to take a subway.
I think someone suggested in a previous post that a replacement tunnel for the Manhattan Bridge would have to be made in the future.
Extend the LIRR along Flatbush to a new 4 to 6 track tunnel, and then bring the LIRR down the old Nassau Loop tracks into a new Chambers Street/City Hall Station. The facility is huge to start with.
But it'll never get done.............
Or just put two tracks in the middle and make Canal St. and Chambers the terminals. (This is if a new tunnel is built for the subway).
Or just put two tracks in the middle and make Canal St. and Chambers the terminals. (This is if a new tunnel is built for the subway).
Actually that is not as crazy as it sounds! I believe in the early days of the Nassau line the LIRR ran into it (from Broadway), so I guess the dimentions are big enough.
The LIRR trains could Terminate at the center platform of Chambers Street. If it did make a station stop at Canal, passengers would be mixed, however the cost of a LIRR ticket at Chambers or Canal could take into consideration that people already paid to get into the subway. You would actually have an across the platform transfer between the LIRR and the subway.
The station at Chambers Street is more than large enough to handle the extra traffic and would allow an easy transfer between the JZ, and 456 lines. At Canal you have transfers with the Broadway line and the 456 line also. Maybe they could make a transfer under Canal street to the 8th Avenue Canal Station and make a whole hub there as part of the project.
Actually that is not as crazy as it sounds! I believe in the early days of the Nassau line the LIRR ran into it (from Broadway), so I guess the dimentions are big enough.
I believe (from historical reference) that the LIRR cars that ran to Chambers Street were of the MP41 variety, that would make them approximately the size of IRT cars, not the 85-footers we run today.
I can just see an 85-footer trying to negotiate the S curves NORTH of Chambers and just south of Canal! OUCH! Crunch!
wayne
They can't even run R-44, 46, or 68's on the Eastern Division, much less LIRR cars. Also, aren't there Federal DOT laws against mixing rapid transit and railroads i.e., sharing the same trackage?
They can't even run R-44, 46, or 68's on the Eastern Division, much less LIRR cars. Also, aren't there Federal DOT laws against mixing rapid transit and railroads i.e., sharing the same trackage?
Yes that is true, however, they wouldn't be sharing the same trackage. They would run down the center tracks at those stations. I believe the problems of clearance (for 75 foot cars anyway) are not actually in the Nassau subway but on other points on the Eastern division like at Marcy, Mrytle, Cypress Hills on the Jamaica line and Grahamn or Grand on the L. The LIRR would only run through Canal and Chambers from a new tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge as someone mentioned earlier in the thread.
They had hoped that the Jamaica Line would be an alternative to the E, but it didn't work. It is just too long.
My former boss at City Planning, who lived in Kew Gardens, had two options. One was to walk for seven minutes, board the Z and take a seat, and get out at Chambers a block from the office. He did that for a while.
The other is to get on the jam-packed E, transfer to the jam-packed 6 and then to the jam-packed 4-5, riding the three most congested lines in the city with no seat. The difference in time was such that this is what he chooses after trying both.
If the NYCT were to build a three-track elevated line along Jamaica Avenue from Cypress Hills to Eastern Parkway, and run express trains, you'd attract more subway riders -- but not LIRR riders.
One thought I've had would be to switch Jamaica Av service to the Fulton St. IND at Euclid, with the service past Euclid being sent to Manhattan via the Broadway el. The Crescent St. structure would be replaced, or at least, the curves would be eased. There would be motivation to extend the stations on Jamaica Av to accomodate 600 foot trains.
Even easier would be to ramp down the Jamaica el into the Rockaway r.o.w., and thence into the IND. Present Rockaway trains could be sent onto the Fulton St and Broadway segments of the el.
If the NYCT were to build a three-track elevated line along Jamaica Avenue from Cypress Hills to Eastern Parkway, and run express trains, you'd attract more subway riders -- but not LIRR riders.
Could a physical connection be built at Sutphin to the LIRR - if so the expresses could replace entire lines of the LIRR. All that would have to be done would be to call the LIRR transit not a railroad.
(Could a physical connection be built at Sutphin to the LIRR - if so the expresses could replace entire lines of the LIRR. All that would have to be done would be to call the LIRR transit not a railroad.)
Remember, the LIRR shares space with AMTRAK at Penn. So even if rail freight doesn't come back, you have an issue.
Remember, the LIRR shares space with AMTRAK at Penn. So even if rail freight doesn't come back, you have an issue.
Couldn't Penn Station be organised so that AMTRAK and LIRR use different Platforms? Also, Penn Station will be of diminished importance once ESA happens. If the LIRR were connected to the Broadway (Brooklyn) Line as well, sufficient space could be created in Penn Station. Then all that would need to be done would be rerouting AMTRAK services from New Rochelle and beyond into GCT. Kick them out of Sunnyside!
"Couldn't Penn Station be organised so that AMTRAK and LIRR use different Platforms?"
Maybe, but the LIRR needs all 4 tracks under the East River, and Amtrak needs to use at least 2 of them.
"Also, Penn Station will be of diminished importance once ESA happens."
Slightly diminished only. There will still be huge numbers of LIRR trains into Penn.
"Then all that would need to be done would be rerouting AMTRAK services from New Rochelle and beyond into GCT."
Amtrak has spent huge amounts of money consolidating all services into Penn. (Formerly Albany service and half of Boston service went into GCT). This is to allow easy connections between NJ and points south and west to points north and east. No way this will change.
Amtrak has spent huge amounts of money consolidating all services into Penn. (Formerly Albany service and half of Boston service went into GCT). This is to allow easy connections between NJ and points south and west to points north and east. No way this will change.
As if 42nd to 34th Sts is that far! All of two Subway stops. I wasn't exactly saying terminate Boston service at 133 St in the Bronx!
What would be the point of sending some Amtrak trains to GCT? Aside from it being a prettier station, (which has nothing to do with convenience) it would do nothing but make the transfer in NY harder for people. It wouldn't matter for people who's destination is NY, but for people who are just on their way from points north to points south it would be hard. True, 42 and 34th are not that far, but then you also have to go from Park to 7th, and this while lugging luggage around! There is no direct subway connection, and why would you want to put people through having to use a taxi, when all they would have to do is change trains at Penn.
I would love to see GCT as more than a commuter station again, but I don't see how it would be possible or necessary beyond a railfan perspective.
There is no direct subway connection
Shock horror, some long distance commuters might have to walk from the 1-2-3 Platform at Times Square to the S platform! It's even on the same level!
However, I take your point. It is a pain, certainly in the Downtown direction. Now, purely from a railfan perspective, has anyone thought of extending the S train to Penn Station? That would be a prime target for ATO :D Full railfan windows! The obvious advantage of ATO is that 60tph can be done and regularly is done (Lille, France). However, this is getting way OT, if rather fun!
For Amtrak passengers the critical issue is luggage. I hate taking taxis but I would really not like the idea of going from Penn to GCT via public transportation with 2 heavy suitcases.
Now, purely from a railfan perspective, has anyone thought of extending the S train to Penn Station?
Now that's not a bad idea. It would also make it a convenient transfer between Metro North and the LIRR, although that will be less important with the East side access.
Now that's not a bad idea. It would also make it a convenient transfer between Metro North and the LIRR, although that will be less important with the East side access.
My difficulty is working out how the hell it could fit through the Times Square complex. I don't think Seventh Av is wide enough for a 6 Track Subway, AFAIK the Broadway Line isn't that far below that another level could be slotted in between that, then with the Flushing Line below that and the street above the IRT, I have difficulty in seeing where an extra pair of tracks could go.
Furthermore, I don't know what depth the LIRR Tunnels are at Penn - could this be problematic too?
7 leaves TS west on 41 st to 9th ave, thence south to 34th st , then east to Penn Station.
Though I think that the plan is to use 11th avenue and pickup Jacob Center as well.
Elias
I am aware that it'd be easy to extend the Flushing Line westwards. I was wondering whether it was possible to do anything with the Shuttle tunnel.
Actually the 7 would be an easier line to use to extend to Penn, picking up Javits while they are at it. It could then turn south towards Penn and terminate there somewhere in the vicinity of the Post Office, which is supposed to become the new Penn Station anyway. The shuttle would be much harder to extend. The 7 line, which takes the same path under 42 street is lower than all the other lines you mentioned.
If the (7) is extended to Javitz, per the current plan, it will serve both Penn and Grand Central. I hope they also figure out some way to connect the (7) tracks to the (1)(2)(3) tracks, so the Flushing line can connect directly with its fellow IRTs, but that's another story.
In one way or another, it is already possible to connect between the LIRR and Metro-North without subway transfers using the (4)(5) and (7) trains, by using either Flatbush/Atlantic Terminal, Woodside, or Hunterspoint/LIC.
:-) Andrew
But we need something faster. The 7 doesn't go express always. Also the el is slower (local) than going to penn and using 1,2,3 to times sq then S.
The shallow depth of the 1/2/3 tracks at Times Square makes running the shuttle to Penn Station impossible -- you can't get it across the mezzanine without destroying the bulk of the Times Square station (nevermind that the tracks would have to be realigned to angle south instead of north).
Running the No. 7 train beneath the Seventh Ave. 1/2/3 tracks to Penn Station would be possible, but the Times Square platform on the 7 would have to be relocated south about 250 feet to allow room for the tracks to turn onto Seventh Ave. (currently the station goes about 75 to 100 feet past Seventh Ave. beneath 41st St.). At the other end, to avoid conflict with the LIRR/Amtrak tracks and platforms beneath Penn Station, the 7 would have to turn north on 34th St., which would make sense anyway if the line is supposed to go to Javits Center. Presumably, the new platform would be on 34th between 7th and 8th Aves., which would allow a transfer between the 7 and the A/C/E.
Economically, and if Amtrak does ever relocated into the Farley PO building, it would probably be easier to run the 7 train down Ninth Ave. and then across 34th to Javits, with stops at 40th St. and Ninth Ave. (Port Authority) and 34th between Ninth and 10th Ave. with a tunnel over to the Farley PO/Amtrak station at 33rd and Ninth. That would avoid the cost of both redoing the Times Square station and of trying to dig out the 7 line beneath the 1/2/3 while keeping those four tracks in regular service.
Last I checked (about a week ago), it was necessary to climb one full flight followed by a few more steps to get from the 1/2/3 to the shuttle. (Then, if the shuttle train pulls in on the far track, the only way to get there is to walk around the other two.)
Now try that with luggage. We're talking Amtrak, remember.
Oh right - my diagrams must be wrong. Does this mean that there is room for a level between street and the 7th Av Line?
That's where the mezzanine is. How else would there be access from the IRT mainline to the shuttle and the BMT? The platforms are between the express and local tracks; there needs to be some way to break past the enveloping local tracks, at the very least.
>I would love to see GCT as more than a commuter station again, but I don't see how it would be possible or necessary beyond a railfan perspective.
There's the proposed connection from GCT to Penn. (an extension of East Side access). Even though we don't know if they'll ever build it, it still is tossed around from time to time.
"As if 42nd to 34th Sts is that far! All of two Subway stops. I wasn't exactly saying terminate Boston service at 133 St in the Bronx! "
It woould be far too expensive to staff two railroad stations in the same city. NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!
It woould be far too expensive to staff two railroad stations in the same city. NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!
Depends what you call a railroad station. Are MNRR and LIRR stations railroad stations? The FRA seems to think so.
"Depends what you call a railroad station. "
Sorry.... AMTK will not put two stations in one city. Why staff two stations when you only need to staff one.
Elias
AMTRAK would not need to staff both. GCT could be staffed by MNRR as present, just they could sell different tickets. Maybe some LIRR staff could be transferred from NYP.
"Maybe some LIRR staff could be transferred from NYP."
Ah... Er... What staff would that be now.
AFIK (circa early 1980's) LIRR trains and platforms *were* werviced by AMKT crews right down to the brake tests prior to departure.
NYP is AMTKs station, and they provide the station services.
Sure they could rent MN staff in GCT but it simply is not AMTK policy to have more than one station in a city.
Fin.
Elias
It doesn't matter what you call a railroad station and if you call LIRR or MN railroadstations. The fact is that the cost would be for AMmtrak, it has nothing to do with LIRR or MN.
"Then all that would need to be done would be rerouting AMTRAK services from New Rochelle and beyond into GCT."
Amtrak has spent huge amounts of money consolidating all services into Penn. (Formerly Albany service and half of Boston service went into GCT). This is to allow easy connections between NJ and points south and west to points north and east. No way this will change.
As much as I would love to see Grand Central have long distance trains again, It was a very good idea for Amtrak to consolidate their service at Penn. It would be insane to send some trains back to GCT because people using NY as a "pass through" would be terribly inconvenienced, especially for people not familiar with NYC. Penn and GCT are not that easy to transfer between. It would be pointless.
Are there any tracks which completely by-pass NYC? Albany - Philadelphia avoiding NYC would help these people who just want to pass through the greatest city on earth and waste precious terminal space.
There is no reasonable Albany-Phila route that does not go through NYC. The track on the west side of the Hudson is a low speed single track with extensive freight traffic.
If they connect that to the NEC. (There are plans to restore passenger service to parts of it, with possible eventual extension to Albany).
Likewise, I wonder why the bus companies don't have service via I 84 or I 287 to connect New England to Philadelphia or Baltimore/Washington without stopping in NYC.
Let me guess that abandoned structure across the Hudson at Poughkeepsie would've been great use!
Not really... it doesn't connect to the north-south lines on either side, it was strictly an east-west route. I'd love to see it rebuilt (for purely selfish reasons) but it won't happen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're probably right that this new Jamaica Express probably wouldn't attract too many LIRR riders. I think though it may help both the Queens Blvd and Fulton Lines, because it offers a real express service. Riders generally avoid the J/Z line because they know that skip-stop isn't really an express. Your old boss found that out when he (or she) discovered taking THREE crowded trains is quicker than taking one empty train. I think a Jamaica Express Z (the way I have it) would be quicker to Chambers than an E to 6 to 4 ride, even with a 7 minute walk. A Jamaica Express train I think would offer Queens riders a real option to reaching lower Manhattan.
Just make sure it isn't el speed (25<) but commuter rail (45-60 sustanied) or no one would use it.
Yes, which means lighter trains with quicker acceleration and braking. Perhaps Matériel Pneu could be installed like they have in Paris.
Yeah, I was thinking putting the speed limit on the express track at about 40-45 for the majority of the Jamaica Express run. Passengers sure love quick trains.
CBTC test on the L on 143 trains will begin next sunday,These tests will not be in passenger service. The tests will take place between Bway Junction and Canarsie.Get this the T/O will be in the C/R position Kawasaki Personnel will be in the front with several TSS's and MTA head Honcho's.
The inclination is to pop on the PA and yell "ramming SPEED!" ... don't mind me, just joshin' ...
*LAUGHING MY ARSE OFF* Ohhhhhhhhhhhh my god Kevin! IF ONLY! *MOOOOOOOO!*
Stuart
The CBTC testing is going to be done on tbhe J line. There is a GO posted in the system that say it will be from May 28- May 31 between 10:00am and 3:00pm. It will be on the middle track from Myrtle Ave to Broadway Junction. I post it on the NYRail right before I got my Password from here.
Robert
Why isthe test being done on the J?
So as not to interfere with passenger service.
And how does using the J tracks not interfere with passenger service?
I reread your post - you did say the middle track would be used.
I had forgotten there was a middle track (on the outer portion of the line, there is not).
Really? Are the tracks there set up for CBTC?
And will they interfere will L trains in passenger service?
- Lyle Goldman
If any of you are still around, look for me. Black pants with MTA vest stickin out of leg pocket, 1 train shirt, yanks cap with blue bandana. Gonna be great!!!!
Verry Good Thing you did Harry! Even you talking to a NY1 reporter at High St and I hope harry have a verry good time doing this! And Harry said that he's going to college in Boston. So Harry,What's next?,Ride the Whole MBTA Rail Systerm? GOOD LUCK1
What is it about? Similar to what Harry did in February?
He was the New Yorker of the week.
Slow news week I see.
ROFLMAO... HAHA, good one zman.
No...he is not New Yorker of the week. It was a NY1 living report.
Peace,
ANDEE
...either way, congrats. Harry.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was about him rideing 33 Hours in the New York City Subway
Big deal, some homeless persons have ridden for days in a row. Compared to that, 33 hours is a trip to the market for a quart of milk.
Mind you I like Harry, but all of his subway travels IMO shouldn't be news fodder.
At least it is better than the once every 5 minute terrorists updates.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, they can try, "Terror and weather on the fives on NY1" as a new slogan. :-)
HAHAHA,
Peace,
ANDEE
Harry's a real good guy and frankly I'd MUCH rather the media kill airtime with stories of his exploits than warning us to look out for scuba divers in the swimming pool. :)
Harry's a real good guy and frankly I'd MUCH rather the media kill airtime with stories of his exploits than warning us to look out for scuba divers in the swimming pool.
My prediction: the next terrorist alert will be about homing pigeons* carrying miniature bombs. I know, we've long been "bombed" by birds, but this will be in an entirely different context :)
* = from the Strange But True files, the criminal use of homing pigeons is not entirely without precedent. They've been used to smuggle diamonds from African mines.
"[Homing pigeons have] been used to smuggle diamonds from African mines."
First Joan Bushwell uses monkeys, and now this!
NOW you've gone and done it! They'll end up spending a WHOLE WEEK of talking heads on this, demanding to know why the "pigeon scenario" never made it out of the Dyre Avenue line to those in charge. I *hope* you're HAPPY, buster. :)
And they were used to send coded messages between the allied forces during WWII.
Yes, congrats to Harry! I just hope the segment ran more than 5 minutes...
It's also in the NY1 web site as the top Brooklyn story. Couldn't figure out how to hotlink the URL or find any instructions. How do I do that?
http://www.ny1.com/ny/Boroughs/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=3&subtopicintid=9&contentintid=21825
Congrats, Harry. It's impressive that you've been able to get all this media coverage for the trip. Good luck at BU next year.
Are there and books about the New Haven Railroad before the MTA?
Oh gosh, there are dozens. I own (and enjoy every one, having reread them several times):
"New Haven Power, 1838 - 1968," by J.W. Swanberg
"The New Haven Railroad Along the Shoreline," Martin McGuirk
"New Haven EP-5 Jets," Joe Cunningham
"Memories of the New Haven," Ronald Hall & Robert Wuchert Jr.
"New Haven Division, Murray Hill to Cedar Hill," A. Sherry
"NH Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment," David Sweetland
"The New Haven in the Streamline Era," Geoffrey Doughty
"The New Haven Railroad's Streamline Passenger Fleet," Geoffrey Doughty
"New Haven Railroad, The Final Decades," Scott Harley
"New Haven Color Pictorial, Volume One - the West End," David Sweetland (there is a picture in this book of two of my aunts taken in 1962 in New Caanan getting off a 4400 series MU train! You can imagine my surprise when I saw the picture. I called the one aunt still living and asked her if she remembered every having her picture taken at the station. She said no but it wouldn't surprise her because while she lived in Danbury, friends in New Caanan would frequently pick her up at that station.)
"In the Shore Line's Shadow - The Six Lives of the Danbury & Norwalk Railroad," L. Peter Cornwall. Fascinating book about a little known road leased to the NHRR in 1892. Marvelous pictures. I'm sure the book is long out of print but it may show up at trainmeets.
"Diesels to Park Avenue - The FL-9 Story," Joesph Snopek & Robert La May
"New Haven Trackside," Jeremy Plant
The Sweetland and Doughty books have the best quality photographs although I enjoy all of them very much.
"In the Shore Line's Shadow - The Six Lives of the Danbury & Norwalk Railroad," L. Peter Cornwall. Fascinating book about a little known road leased to the NHRR in 1892. Marvelous pictures. I'm sure the book is long out of print but it may show up at trainmeets.
And on eBay. I just plucked a copy there about a month ago... it is quite interesting reading, I finally started it this morning :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I found the book particularly interesting because my mother was born and raised in Danbury and we used to go there to visit my grandparents. My aunt still lives there. I remember taking the NH with another aunt from GTC up to Danbury (behind a FL-9)and while visiting, my grandfather and I would drive a day or two later to the Danbury station where we would wander around the freight tracks in the loop. This was after the line was deenergized; I don't remember if it was down in the early 1960s but I think it was since I don't recall seeing any catenary there.
One of these days I need to plan a visit; I understand there's a museum at the station now since an active station was built nearby.
I understand there's a museum at the station now since an active station was built nearby.
Correctamundo. The former station houses the indoor stuff, but the best stuff is outside. Example: NYC FA's
Dis Danbury do anything with the F they got from the LIRR. I think it was 617.
What routes did the New Haven Railroad trains take?
- Lyle Goldman
<< What routes did the New Haven Railroad trains take? >>
Major routes were the Shore Line (GCT to Boston) via the Hell Gate Bridge with a branch to NYP; Devon - Maybrook and Campbell Hall (major freight interchange with the NYC, Erie, L&HR and L&NE); New Haven - Springfield; New London - Worchester; and the Old Colony Lines (south from Boston and onto Cape Cod).
Major branches included Oak Point - Bay Ridge (freight only); South Norwalk to Pittsfield via Danbury (later cut back to Danbury); Devon - Torrington/Winstead; New Haven - Turner's Falls (later cut back to Pittsfield); Boston - Lowell; Boston - Fitchburg; Boston - New Bedford; and Boston - Newport.
Wow!
> Shore Line (GCT to Boston) via the Hell Gate Bridge
How did it get from GCT to the Hell Gate Bridge?
> the Old Colony Lines (south from Boston and onto Cape Cod).
Are there any passenger railroads currently on Cape Cod?
- Lyle Goldman
<< > Shore Line (GCT to Boston) via the Hell Gate Bridge
How did it get from GCT to the Hell Gate Bridge? >>
Whoops! My bad. I meant NYP to Boston via the bridge.
<< > the Old Colony Lines (south from Boston and onto Cape Cod).
Are there any passenger railroads currently on Cape Cod? >>
AFAIK Amtrack no longer provides service to the Cape but Todd or someone else living in Boston would know for sure. Perhaps the MBTA offers summer service there?
There were a couple of issues of RailPace with article perfect for railfans (those folks that love to chase trains to photo them along the way).
- Danbury = Jan 1991
- Waterbury = Jun 1992
Mr rt__:^)
Late Friday afternoon I was riding a "W" train fron Coney Island to Manhattan and shortly past the 9th Ave. station there was a small track fire. A T/A worker quickly snuffed out the blaze with a fire extinguisher causing no disruption of service except that my train was held up momentarily while the worker reached for the extinguisher that he used to put out the blaze. Thank goodness that the track fire wasn't in a tunnel, or it would have filled the affected area with smoke.
#3 West End Jeff
>>>>>>>Thank goodness that the track fire wasn't in a tunnel, or it would have filled the affected area with smoke.
IIRC, that's what fires usually do.
Even if it's a small track fire in a tunnel, it's not going to turn into another Clark Street incident. Are you aware as to how many track fires there are on a given day???
Probably almost more than I could count, since I only have the ten fingers...
Wow, everytime there's a track fire today, it's a big headliner. Back then, though, weren't track fires more common due to garbage more widespread on the tracks?
There are several track fires daily throughout the system. They do not make headlines.
A number of years ago there were more track fires since there was more garbage on the tracks and they fires frequently made the news. Now there aren't so many fires and unless it causes a major disruption of service you seldom hear about them on the news.
#3 West End Jeff
The Vac-Trac is supposed to help with that, right?
So much for today's redbird fantrip, let's see a show of hands of who will attend tomorrow's trip. I'll be there !
Bill "Newkirk"
See y'all at Whitehall - bright and early.
Not me...too many damn foamers. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
C-train (Cleanairbus) here about to join the D-type trip on M-Day (Monday)...lol
Carlton
Cleanairbus
As I mentioned in a previous post, I may just "show up" and hope there's room.
any info about the august trip ???
>>any info about the august trip ???<<
Not yet Salaam, if I or anyone hears anything, we'll post it.
Bill "Newkirk"
i wiil B there in august ...thankz......!
One trip in July, two2 in August. Tentative dates I heard are the second Sunday in July and the second and fourth Sundays in August. The trip is supposed to leave 57th / 7th, *I think*.
--Mark
ill be there cant wait to see how this train looks up close.its my first time on a classic train
Could somebody please give me the exact route of this excursion train and when it is expected to arrive at and leave the major stops? I don't think I will be able to ride the train, but maybe I can see the train from afar.
- Lyle Goldman
I was there, too!
--Mark
Two looonnnng new pages on the LIRR Port Washington Brancg in Queens at Forgotten New York.
Great stuff. Thanks, Kevin!
Yes indeed. Excellent pages. I usually view Kevins updates on Monday myself, so, thanks for the link Mr. Matus... and thanks for the pages Mr. Walsh.
Peace,
ANDEE
Great job Kevin. Nice history and great photography to go along with it.
Bill "Newkirk"
Can anyone tell me if the Port Wash still has wayside block signals?
If you are referring to the semaphore style lights (vertical = green signal, straight across = stop, slant = slow for those needing more description), yes. For example, near the Bayside station you have them for both tracks.
As for as i know all the LIRR lines have way side block signals including the most modern of the LIRR lines (Babylon). Every line ive been on in the LIRR have wayside block signals. I wonder why they haven't replaced them with trafic like signals.
screw traffic signals. I just love position light signals.
Better are MNRR style cab signals. Red/Red for stop and flashing green for "proceed using cab signal". Same system for the Baltimore Metro.
Within the past year the LIRR has removed wayside automatic block signals from virtually all its lines except the Atlantic Ave line and the Main Line to Jamacia. This leaves wayside signals only at interlockings with intermediate control being given through cab signals only. I know for a fact that the Ronkonkoma Line, Far Rock Line and Babylon Line have since been converted to Cab Signals w/o Fixed Wayside Signals, but I heard somewhere that the Port Wash still retained PRR PL signals between interlockings. Can anybody confirm this? If you see signals w/ a number plate below the signal head then it is an automatic block signal.
Near Bayside station?
I live in suffolk county not too far from the LIRR and i see wayside block signals nothing else. I travel on the LIRR out to nassau county such as freeport and i see nothing but wayside block signals so i honestly dont think they changed the signals on the LIRR. Out of Bay Shore i see wayside block signally , out of patchogue , out of freeport , out of wantagh , out of babylon terminal. I dont think they replaced them.
Those are interlocking signals, they took out all the signals between interlockings. You can see all the foundations.
Jersey Mike wrote: If you see signals w/ a number plate below the signal head then it is an automatic block signal.
Even if the signal doesn't have a number plate, it's still an automatic block signal. It's also an absolute signal, i.e. its most restrictive signal is stop.
Michael
If a signal dosen't have a number plate it is an absolute or home or interlocking signal. Those are still in place. I need to find out if the permissive signals b/t interlockings are still present.
By definition, they are absolute signals. They are located at interlockings because permissive (or intermediate) signals have "stop and proceed" as their most restrictive signal and you can't have that signal at an interlocking because the switch could be set for the wrong direction.
On the B&O, absolute signals don't have to be attached to interlockings. They are used as hold out signals to prevent trains from bunching up at interlockings.
Listen, I'm the signaling guy. I know signal rules and definitions backwards and forwards. All I want to know is if the Port Wash has wayside signals between interlockings.
Looks like you're just going to have to go up there and ride it for yourself...
or you can write to LIRR management at Jamaica Station and ask them.
It is a nice tour. The PW really is an interesting line.
And one of the most important for Queens residents.
I do take issue with a bit of the criticism levelled at the stations. While LIRR does shortchange Queens residents on station maintenance, the Port Washington lines' Queens stations have undergone some very significant improvements, and if memory serves correctly, Broadway is scheduled for further improvements. Aburndale will be very nice when it is finished.
While LIRR does shortchange Queens residents on station maintenance
I think a lot of the LIRR's stations are shortchanged. Metro-North's seem to be in much better shape. I don't know it's just my perception, but Metro North seems to be run better that the LIRR. It is way ahead in concrete tie replacement, station condition, etc. I know the LIRR is larger, but why does it seem that the MTA treats Metro North better?
I can only speculate. Some of Metro-North's territory is also Amtrak's - does that increase investment priority? Not if you look at the state of the catenary in Connecticutt.
Timing?
LIRR has had a lot of renovation work done recently, and is in the midst of more. Penn was redone; Atlantic Av and Jamaica together will cost close to 2/3 of a billion dollars.
I'd like to see more new tracks with concrete ties...
Dunno...
I agree. I've noticed that while MN have opened new stations such as Cortland and Wassaic, the LIRR has been closing down stations like Center Moriches and Quogue. The MTA were operating the trains before MN was created so maybe that's why they seem to be better run. The LIRR was owned by the Pennsy before the MTA so its like who gives a flying fat frog about the LIRR.
The LIRR has not reduced the size of its rail network. It may be that the stations you refer to had very low ridership. Additionally , note that a low ridership station, if closed, allows the LIRR to improve the travel schedule to the succeeding stations.
The Center Moriches Station had Low ridership because it like Bellport had very few trains stopping at them. Most trains stopped at Patchogue, skipped Bellport, stopped at Mastic, skipped Center Moriches, etc. Travelling from Bellport or Center Moriches was very inconvenient. The only reason Bellport stayed open (they proposed closing it also) was because there was a local outcry against closing it.
The LIRR said low ridership, but it;s the old cycle: Very few trains stop, so less people ride because it's inconvenient. So they cut service, then less people ride, so fewer trains stop and the cycle continues till they decide to close the station because "too few riders". Actually the station at Bellport since the time they were going to close it has more riders. They finally redid the parking lot and made the station alot more attractive, so that attractted more riders. Before, Bellport looked almost like some of the Western Montauk stations, so it's no wonder no one used the station. Now if they would only increase service at the station. Bellport still is the only station that alot of trains skip.
The Center Moriches Station had Low ridership because it like Bellport had very few trains stopping at them. Most trains stopped at Patchogue, skipped Bellport, stopped at Mastic, skipped Center Moriches, etc. Travelling from Bellport or Center Moriches was very inconvenient. The only reason Bellport stayed open (they proposed closing it also) was because there was a local outcry against closing it.
The LIRR said low ridership, but it;s the old cycle: Very few trains stop, so less people ride because it's inconvenient. So they cut service, then less people ride, so fewer trains stop and the cycle continues till they decide to close the station because "too few riders".
And then there was the fiasco concerning the Southampton College station (the one serving the LIU Southampton campus, not the one serving Southampton town). Ridership surveys in the late 1990's showed that almost no one was using the station. Citing these surveys, LIRR management chose to close the station rather than to build a high platform to accommodate the new diesel equipment.
It soon came out, however, that all of the surveys were conducted at times when the LIU campus was not in session. Low ridership at those times was no surprise as the station was adjacent to the campus but not much else. Students who used the station claimed that ridership actually was quite good when college was in session, better than at some stations which received the new platforms. LIRR management wasn't convinced and closed the station despite the pleas to keep it open.
What has not been shown, as far as I know, is whether LIRR management deliberately had the surveys conducted at times when they knew school wasn't in session, thereby getting results that would reinforce their decision to close the station - the idea being, of course, that they already wanted to close the station and simply were looking for justification.
Of course, we don't know the reason why LIRR wanted to close it. While what you say may be true (certainly sounds like it) no one in a govt. organizatio ever wants to reduce his or her kingdom. So there was probably a pretty strong reason to do it.
What kind of reason? Speculation: Riders at stations further away wanted a faster ride, and there wereenough of them to have clout. Or: the college students regularly vandalized the station and LIRR got tired of it. Or: There wasn't budget available to rebuild the station and Or: combine all three reasons above. Or: other reasons I haven't listed.
Or merchants in the town wanted the students to come there first (and spend some money.)
ELIAS
>> There wasn't budget available to rebuild the station... <<
That is probably the #1 reason. Every one of the diesel stations that were closed would have required a rebuilt platform at the minimum in order to accomodate the new cars. It costs just as much to rebuild a platform for twenty riders a day as it does for 200 (unless we enjoy hearing "Passengers wishing to exit the train at Pinelawn must be in the last two cars only!"). Unfortunately, life is full of dirty compromises. Everyone has to live in some sort of budget, and we all have to have priorities. Maybe if LIU-Southampton had offered to pay for a new platform that might have helped.
No question.
Look, if you and I walk into MTA headquarters tomorrow, with a check for $10 million, and tell MTA, "Put ADA elevators into the Queens Village station." - they'll do it.
(unless we enjoy hearing "Passengers wishing to exit the train at Pinelawn must be in the last two cars only!").
That is still the case at Bellport. On an eastbound train you must board the first two cars in order to exit at Bellport. I think that is a fair compromise, at least the station is still open, and like I said, it looks like regular commuter ridership has improved at the station since they redid the platform and the parking lot.
Bellport gets more riders in the summer because South Bellport (Bellport Village) has an influx of summer residents from the city (It is very affluent, similar to the Hamptons in the summer), but it is unique in that North Bellport is a lower income area (where the station is located). The lower income area is probably what saved the station, because that is where the local outcry came from to keep it open. Although I believe a lot of more affluent Manhattan summer people use the station during the summer also.
The same would probably have been true at Center Moriches, although Bellport was in total shambles before they redid it, at least Center Moriches looked like a real station even before. The Southampton College station should have been kept open, even if it was just one carlength long. They could have even suspended service when school was not in session.
I would suspect that one day Center Moriches will become a station again. There is a tremendous amount of new construction in the area. The "commuter zone" seems to be spreading further an further east each year.
Of course, we don't know the reason why LIRR wanted to close it [Southampton-LIU]. While what you say may be true (certainly sounds like it) no one in a govt. organizatio ever wants to reduce his or her kingdom. So there was probably a pretty strong reason to do it.
What kind of reason? Speculation: Riders at stations further away wanted a faster ride, and there wereenough of them to have clout. Or: the college students regularly vandalized the station and LIRR got tired of it. Or: There wasn't budget available to rebuild the station and Or: combine all three reasons above. Or: other reasons I haven't listed.
I would doubt if the first two reasons were relevant. There is little or no commuter traffic that far east, and the leisure riders who make up almost all of the ridership aren't likely to have noticed the extra time which the stop necessitated. Vandalism was unlikely because there was almost nothing to vandalize at the old low-platform stop! Budgetary reasons are probably why it was closed.
While your conclusion about the actual reason is probably close to the mark, I would avoid generalizations about commuter traffic.
In fact, you're dead wrong about commuter traffic from the easternmost points on the LIRR. Port Jeff trains, to cite one example, have a lot of commuter traffic on them nowadays. It has to do with more people moving into new homes in Suffolk.
So commuters are a big issue, in general.
In fact, you're dead wrong about commuter traffic from the easternmost points on the LIRR. Port Jeff trains, to cite one example, have a lot of commuter traffic on them nowadays. It has to do with more people moving into new homes in Suffolk.
You really can't compare the Port Jefferson and Montauk lines. The latter is much longer.
I occasionally take the 5:51 Hempstead train from Penn Station, which connects for Montauk at Jamaica. It is basically the only feasible p.m. rush hour train for people going to the Hamptons or Montauk. The Montauk train is usually pretty full when it leaves Jamaica. Most riders get off at Bay Shore, Sayville and Patchogue, the last of which is my stop. I would have to guess that there are fewer than 30 people left onboard when it pulls out of Patchogue, and there's a stop at Mastic-Shirley before it even gets to the Hamptons.
It seems a reasonable conclusion that very few people commute to Penn Station from east of Patchogue.
If I Recall Correctly, the regular commuters furthest east who commute to Manhattan use the Yaphank and Speonk stations. After that, service is too crappy and the trip is just too long.
If I Recall Correctly, the regular commuters furthest east who commute to Manhattan use the Yaphank and Speonk stations
Yaphank has pretty crappy service also. Most runs end at Ronkonkoma, as that is where the electification ends. I think after Ronkonkoma there is only one rush hour train that goes all the way to Greenport, and one that ends at Yaphank. There was talk years ago of extending electrification to Yaphank, but I don't know what came of that. (anyone know?)
I'm sure Medford and Yaphank would become similar to the other mainline stations after electrification. They would even find new use for the station in Holtsville that they closed when they closed all the others a few years ago. The area has become more built up in the last few years. I know that Holtsville, Medford, and Yaphank would have MUCH more passengers if they ran "normal" service from them. The fact is that the LIRR makes it impossible to use these stations (well Holtsville is closed, but you know what I mean). The service is terrible at Medford and Yaphank, and people would have to arrange their schedules around the trains, which isn't going to happen. If they run it, they will come.
Yaphank has pretty crappy service also. Most runs end at Ronkonkoma, as that is where the electification ends. I think after Ronkonkoma there is only one rush hour train that goes all the way to Greenport, and one that ends at Yaphank. There was talk years ago of extending electrification to Yaphank, but I don't know what came of that. (anyone know?)
I'm sure Medford and Yaphank would become similar to the other mainline stations after electrification. They would even find new use for the station in Holtsville that they closed when they closed all the others a few years ago. The area has become more built up in the last few years. I know that Holtsville, Medford, and Yaphank would have MUCH more passengers if they ran "normal" service from them. The fact is that the LIRR makes it impossible to use these stations (well Holtsville is closed, but you know what I mean). The service is terrible at Medford and Yaphank, and people would have to arrange their schedules around the trains, which isn't going to happen. If they run it, they will come.
I actually am one of a rare breed, a commuter from the Medford station. There are about 15 to 20 regulars from the station. You are correct about the limited service. There is only one a.m. rush hour train, leaving Medford at 6:42 and getting to Penn via the earliest Ronkonkoma connection around 8:10 (I don't know for sure because I usually hang around Ronkonkoma for a while, getting a bagel and the newspaper and taking the 7:22 express, arriving at Penn at 8:30). Coming home, there's similarly just one p.m. rush hour train to Medford. The last connecting train leaves Penn at 5:41, though I usually get the 5:22 or the 5:23 (the latter requires a change in Jamaica).
Despite the inconveniences, I much prefer going from Medford. Driving to Ronkonkoma is a hassle with traffic and requires parking a long way from the platforms. Patchogue is another alternative, but the schedule isn't very good. There indeed has been enough population growth in the areas east of Ronkonkoma to support better service to Greenport or at least Yaphank. Electrification would be great, but even adding a couple of diesel trainsets would be good. Granted, some of the commuters from that area are so used to driving to Ronkonkoma that they'd be slow to switch, but I've no doubt that better service would eventually win them over.
And the worst thing about the lack of service is that if you leave your car in let's say Medford, and get laid up at work and miss one of the ONLY rush hour trains which leaves fairly early (before 6), here you will be stuck at Ronkonkoma, and your car is at Medford. At least if the station had normal service, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I don't think there is even any service during the day. I don't understand that they don't even try to increase ridership on the line by gradually increasing service.
I usually use the Patchogue station because service is relatively frequent from there. I do use Ronkonkoma occasionally, especially if I know I will be in the city late, as the last train out of Penn Station to Patchogue is at about 12:30 AM (but that's a topic for a whole other thread) Anyway, I could easily use either Bellport or Medford, or even Yaphank if the service at any those stations was even close to normal. Bellport at least has at least some normalicy, but both Medford and Yaphank on the mainline are a total joke.
And the worst thing about the lack of service is that if you leave your car in let's say Medford, and get laid up at work and miss one of the ONLY rush hour trains which leaves fairly early (before 6), here you will be stuck at Ronkonkoma, and your car is at Medford. At least if the station had normal service, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I don't think there is even any service during the day. I don't understand that they don't even try to increase ridership on the line by gradually increasing service.
That is a concern, especially since my wife works 3-11 and therefore can't pick me up if I'm stranded in Ronkonkoma. I'm only able to use Medford because my job has fairly predictable hours. On fairly rare occasions I'll know in advance that I might have to stay late, and then I'll go from Ronkonkoma or Patchogue that morning. Many people, of course, do not have this sort of predictability with their jobs, and therefore a station like Medford just isn't an option with its service levels.
OK - if you're talking that far east, fine.
I agree, the commuter zone for the most part ends at Patchogue. A lot of people from the towns east of Patchogue probably drive to either Ronkonkoma or Patchogue, as the service is better there. Ronkonkoma gets alot off non-local people, and people that choose to stay on the Montauk branch get much better service at Patchogue because a lot of trains end there. You can even get more picky and say the commuter zone ends at Speonk, but east of there I don't think there is a tremendous amount of regular commuter traffic, at least compared to other parts of the LIRR.
I agree, the commuter zone for the most part ends at Patchogue. A lot of people from the towns east of Patchogue probably drive to either Ronkonkoma or Patchogue, as the service is better there. Ronkonkoma gets alot off non-local people, and people that choose to stay on the Montauk branch get much better service at Patchogue because a lot of trains end there. You can even get more picky and say the commuter zone ends at Speonk, but east of there I don't think there is a tremendous amount of regular commuter traffic, at least compared to other parts of the LIRR.
Speonk seems pretty much out of the commuter zone too.
I suspect that most of the regular commuters from the eastern part of the Montauk line drive to Ronkonkoma rather than Patchogue. I say this because most of the people using Patchogue seem to park in the village-residents-only stationhouse lot rather than the nearby unrestricted lot.
It would be very interesting to see where Ronkonkoma station commuters actually live. I know of people who live in Stony Brook and Westhampton and use Ronkonkoma. In addition, the Mt. Sinai fire chief uses Ronkonkoma as I see his marked vehicle there (having a fire chief work all the way in Manhattan would seem a bit problematic, as he'd have trouble getting back quickly in emergenices, but I guess that's another issue for another time).
I say this because most of the people using Patchogue seem to park in the village-residents-only stationhouse lot rather than the nearby unrestricted lot.
You are probably right. If I use Patchogue I sometimes use the metered parking in the parking lot near the station building. I think they are good up to 12 hours or so. The other lot seems kind of desolate to leave a car for a long peoiod of time, because it is empty most of the time. Actually I sometimes even drive to Sayville to park, because the lot there is very easy to use, especially compared to Ronkonkoma, and even to a lesser extent to Patchogue's lot.
I say this because most of the people using Patchogue seem to park in the village-residents-only stationhouse lot rather than the nearby unrestricted lot.
You are probably right. If I use Patchogue I sometimes use the metered parking in the parking lot near the station building. I think they are good up to 12 hours or so. The other lot seems kind of desolate to leave a car for a long peoiod of time, because it is empty most of the time. Actually I sometimes even drive to Sayville to park, because the lot there is very easy to use, especially compared to Ronkonkoma, and even to a lesser extent to Patchogue's lot.
Patchogue's meters indeed are a bargain, at one dollar for 12 hours. The free lot on Academy Avenue looks desolate at first, but isn't as bad as it seems because a taxi service uses it and there usually are people around.
I've never tried Sayville. Must do so someday.
I don't thinl you save all that much time by eliminating one stop. The schedule hardly changed when they closed Center Moriches, Quogue, and SH-LIU
The LIRR East End service is a joke. Considering all the development out there (Tanger,etc)there should be people from the city who want to get out to the Hamptons who could take the LIRR.
I think the Greenport branch runs right by Tanger, they could easily put a station there.
But for now as I see it, there is absolutely no way to do a day trip via LIRR to Riverhead or the South Fork.
Considering MNRR gives much more service to it's outer fringes than LIRR, it is a disgrace to Long Island.
think the Greenport branch runs right by Tanger, they could easily put a station there.
You are correct the line runs right next to the outlet center, so a station would work right there. I think service should run at least every two hours to Riverhead. You would be suprised how many people would use it if they made it "possible" to use the line. A station should also be added at Manorville which has had a tremendous amount of growth over the years. They could at the VERY least start with service eveery 2 1/2 hours, and then gradually increase it as ridership rises. Hotsville, Medford, Yaphank, Manorville are not the little rural towns that they were when the LIRR cut service to it's current service WAY back when. To say low ridership is totally skewed. How can they say no one rides when they make the service impossible to use?
Just felt the need to correct the subject, since the PW has only one stop in "The City."
OK?
Better
Dude, enough already. We knew what he meant from the beginning, are these changes necessary?
Since I don't have a Forgottenboard, let's explore the premise behind those pages.
The Port Washington Branch is a Jekyll-Hyde line with the Hyde being in NYC and the Jekyll being in Nassau county.
Those stations in NYC, at least the ones west of Auburndale, are more or less treated like regular subway stations...ie. deferred maintenance and even when improvements are made, slapdash at best.
The LIRR considers their stations in NYC as necessary evils, since their unofficial raison d'être is to bring Nassau and Suffolk commuters into their jobs in Manhattan. (I use the PW branch as a local service, and also use it to get to work.) They'd just as soon close down the intermediate stations in NYC.
Remember the last threat of a transit strike? It was announced that during the strike, which would have affected bus and subway service, most stations on the PW Branch would CLOSE. The only way I would have of reaching Manhattan, in that case, would have been by taxi.
I've used the PW branch since 1992 and enjoy its Jekyll moments, and despise where the LIRR turns its Hyde side.
BTW it's not just the PW branch. I'll be visiting Hollis, Locust Manor, St Albans etc in the upcoming weeks.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'll be visiting Hollis, Locust Manor, St Albans etc in the upcoming weeks.
More station the LIRR has "forgotten".
"The only way I would have of reaching Manhattan, in that case, would have been by taxi"
If you live in Flushing, and are close enough to use the Flushing LIRR station, couldn't you just walk another block and take the 7?
>>>If you live in Flushing, and are close enough to use the Flushing LIRR station, couldn't you just walk
another block and take the 7?
<<<
Not during a subway strike...anyway I use Broadway.
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you live in Flushing, and are close enough to use the Flushing LIRR station, couldn't you just walk another block and take the 7?
I had not realized there was a residency requirement for using the Port Washington Branch.
Locust Manor seems to be in decent shape, though there aren't really any station services. Just two side platforms.
St. Albans is currently being re-done. They've knocked down the far end of the platform, and currently open only 2 cars at the station. I believe they are eventually planning on having a completely new 4 car island platform there. From observation, I'd guess there are about 100 passengers a day using St. Albans.
I've never used Hollis station. But it looks decrepit passing by. Even if they fixed the platforms, the station would still be somewhat menacing with those nasty access roads.
Rosedale is currently getting a big facelift. They'll eventually have a 10-car platform with an escalator (and I may have read that there will be an elevator as well). Now if the city would just do something about the parking lots...
The Laurelton station hasn't been re-done, but the area around the station has been spruced up considerably -- and ridership from this station seems to have increased considerably over the last 10 years.
CG
To add to the list, Queens Village seems to be in decent shape and has good ridership levels.
Queens Village does look pretty good. In the winter, though, snow and ice make getting to the stairwell a bit hazardous. I've almost taken a spill a few times.
Hey, what ever happened to Union Hall Street?
When they going fix that one up.
Gheesh!
Theres still tiny pieces of the platform there!!!
I must be getting old. As a kid I used to take the Hempstead Branch and the trains did stop there. I also remember stopping at Woodhaven although only about 2 trains a day stopped there.
Do you know of any freight sidings on the main line or Montauk in Queens?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Do you know of any freight sidings on the main line or Montauk in Queens?
I don't know of any on the main line. The Montauk line in Queens has some freight sidings; one of the more active one is not too far from LIC and usually has several dry-bulk hopper cars.
I assume the reason they would have skipped the Queens stations during the strike was as a sympathy strike by the LIRR unions not some prejudice against the city by the LIRR.
By the way, I always thought the reason for the conditions of the stations in the city was because the city was responsible for the stations, not the LIRR. I might be wrong though.
>>>>By the way, I always thought the reason for the conditions of the stations in the city was because the city was responsible for the stations, not the
LIRR. I might be wrong though. <<<
City Comptroller Thompson has decried conditions in Murray Hill & Broadway, calling them borderline dangerous...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin and I have been having a small e-mail discussion about exactly WHY the stations are decrepit. Kevin feels that it is deliberate. I, on the other hand, feel that there are many reasons that seem to contribute to an "institutionalized neglect" of the city stations in general.
Below, find excerpts from an e-mail I sent to Kevin regarding the issue. He is aware I am posting them. Enjoy.
As for whether or not the deferred maintenance was deliberate, I would like to play devil's advocate these next few paragraphs and wonder what percentage of the maintenance was, in fact "deferred," and what deferred it. I can't help but think that a sizeable percentage of the complaints about "deferred maintenance" are borne of envy that one station doesn't look as good as another for whatever reason; or that a general area looks dumpy when another looks clean. There could be many reasons for this perception of deliberate neglect that a casual observer may not appreciate or notice. I recall former Queens borough president Claire Shulman's hysterical demand that the LIRR demolish several abandoned and inaccessible stations along the main line in Queens that were admittedly eyesores. This condition had little impact on the running of the Railroad, but her borough's image was at stake, and she went as far as threatening to restrict the LIRR's access through Queens to Penn Station or Brooklyn until the mess was cleaned up. At least the threat sounded good to the press.
Woodside station was renovated, but unfortunately created a bird problem (I don't know whether to laugh or to cry about how such a situation was allowed to occur after the renovation). Bayside was renovated, as was Forest Hills and Flushing Main Street. Jamaica, of course, is being rebuilt virtually from the ground up. And Penn Station was renovated rather beautifully in 1993-4.
Admittedly these stations are some of the busiest in the LIRR's city corridor. They were renovated first among the city stations, as they should. That they were renovated after, say, Ronkonkoma terminal or Huntington terminal or several Nassau stations along the main line strikes me as irrelevant. There aren't too many city stations where the ridership holds as large a stake as those in Nassau and Suffolk Counties where the LIRR is the only game in town and serves many more riders requiring more specialized services. Stations outside the city serve as town squares, intermodal commuter hubs (with the main mode being the car, unlike in the city), retail anchors, and what have you. Shoring these institutions up can mean the difference between a robust local economy and a stagnant one.
Outside of Bayside and Forest Hills that kindasorta mirror this usage profile, city stations are just . . . there. There are just too many other outlets competing for attention, dollars, or maintenance, and the Railroad gets short shrift. I cannot think it is intentional.
Let's not forget the headaches building in the City causes. Everything is built on top of everything else. Removing something means putting a strain on something else. Nothing can be allowed to close while the work is being done, Heaven forbid. While this should not preclude anybody or any entity from building or rebuilding in New York City, it creates an engineering nightmare across countless bureaucracies, drastically inflating the cost and reducing the desire. If you had X dollars and could choose between renovating one City station with its inherent hamstrings or two Island stations, which would you choose, more often than not?
Murray Hill is the merest of outposts on the Port Washington branch, having been built to serve only four cars. If the steps are truly crumbling, and the platform is not serviceable, then the LIRR should be held negligent for not rectifying these obvious shortcomings. Either that, or just abandon the station as being irreparable and not worth reconstructing due to low ridership, which I can't think was induced due to the neglect because of its diminutive size to begin with.
If the problem at Broadway, which has a serviceable platform extension of current design, is graffiti or vandalism, not fixing it in a timely manner cannot be held against the LIRR.
(End of playing Devil's Advocate)
I am still of the mind that the LIRR was not really intended to carry city dwellers within city limits, or volumes of Long Islanders to anywhere within New York City other than Flatbush Avenue, Penn Station, and maybe LIC, where they could then fan out as they please. If I were a Long Island resident coming from an area where the LIRR is the only practical public transportation network, I would be very upset that my longer-distance commuter train's performance is hampered by making many stops in areas where there is a bounty of transportation choices. Hamstringing the LIRR to satisfy city residents just makes more LIers opt for their cars if they could afford it. The only way to woo car drivers to public transportation of any kind is to make it as competitive as feasible in the areas of TIME and COMFORT. Otherwise, why sacrifice the comfort, exclusivity, and (often) time savings inherent in driving?
The LIRR demands a substantial local contribution for maintenance of stations from the local authorities. In the suburbs this means the counties (Nassau and Suffolk). In the city it means The City.
This policy apparently predates MTA control. In the 1960s (when the LIRR was still PRR-owned) Suffolk County refused to pay for maintenance of many stations and the railroad responded by tearing down many beautiful old stations and replacing them with "bus shelter" type structures. There wasn't much of an issue of platform maintenance, since almost all of these station platforms were "low level" types or just plain dirt clearings.
It would seem that Suffolk quietly pays their share each year, but Nassau makes a noisy complaint of overcharges, but after much wrangling and adjustments, they pay up too.
So my first question would be: "does the City pay it's maintenance bill?" Or does it pay all its maintenance bill"? If they do, we can continue to draw conclusions. If they don't, it makes a lot of the speculation moot.
I'm sorry if the following is boring, but it might help answer the question. This is from the MTA "2002 Combined Continuing Disclosure Filings, April 19, 2002 Appendix A":
The City and each of the seven counties in the Transportation District outside the City are each billed an amount fixed by statute for the operation, maintenance and use of Commuter System passenger stations within the City and each such county [...]
[...]
MTA may transfer ownership of Commuter System passenger stations or the responsibility for the performance of particular functions with respect thereto to the county or municipality in which they are located, provided the transferee has undertaken the obligation to operate and maintain such stations or to perform the functions so transferred pursuant to a contract satisfactory to MTA. As a result of any such transfer, the obligation of the transferee county or municipality to pay passenger station maintenance, operation and use assessments would be diminished and the amount of revenues received by MTA would be reduced thereby.
So it's possible that the City hasn't made its payments and it's possible that the City agreed to maintain the stations themselves in exchange for lowering their assesment. It's even possible the City owns the stations. I don't know if any of those are true, but I'm sure the local politocs either know or could find out.
Is the same true for Metro North. Even though LIRR and MN are both MTA, MN stations seem to be in much better shape and more well maintained that those of the LIRR
Yes, both commuter roads. See the quotation of policy in my follow-up to this post. If its the City's call, it might have something to do with which areas of the City the affected stations are in, and what kind of "pull" the local council members have.
...well, almost.
I'm at the Burger King at the corner of Broadway and Fulton. It's
one floor below ground, and you can feel the trains going by
(probably the 4/5 which is adjacent to this site/level).
Their deal is that if you buy an Extra Value Meal, you get 20 minutes
of free high-speed Internet time. There's a bank of 10 terminals
from which to choose.
Fries with your MetroCard?
Been there, done that.
BTW, the Times Square Internet Cafe which used to be great has really gone downhill.
Must be the first time you ever ate there Todd.
That BK has had those terminals for about 5 years.
They aare not bad (if you like looking up at the monitor and straining your neck).
Ok everyone, its time again for the bi-annual SEPTA trip. A number of you have expressed interest in another SEPTA trip and since we had such a rockin time last December I felt I could organize another go. Up on the slate this time is an R3 trip to West Trenton and Possibly Media (R3 is where the Silverliners roam) and a terminal to terminal Market Frankford Trip b4 they add the new signaling and destroy the Market El. There will also be the obligatory BSS Express trip.
The only question is when. I am going to press for a weekday trip, as SEPTA reallt shuts down on weekends. The best day for me is Friday, any other day will have to allow for me to attend my 1-2:30 class at UPenn (either w/ lunch or an Rt. 36 Trip down Island Ave). So just reply to this thread if you are interested and supply times when you would best be able to attend.
Today I was on board R33/36WF Fan Trip, it was a great trip if any of you SUBTALKERS saw me I was wearing a Toronto Blue Jays hat backwards with a Tommy Hilfiger white shirt & my Canon E05 camera.
Was a long day for me...was almost like work but well worth the trip to meet some of you. Best to have an ID badge to make things easier. Made the rounds a number of times...had my 239th vest on with CED hat (2 and 5) and tool/radio belt. The best was going to the end in the 207th yard. #5 Redbird inspection in the morning. CI Peter
Ah! I thought that was you, I saw Peter on your badge cept I wasn't sure it was you. I was the kid with the backwards yanks cap standing by the storm door while you were talking to the BEST CONDUCTOR EVER!! The dude let me stick my head out the window and act like a conductor when we were going through 175 (?) on the A I think. Wow what a great experience and day it was!
Yep you were standing right next to me during part of the trip. That was a fun fan trip.
I had a great time. I hope theres at least 1 more trip with these excellent cars. It was a pleasure going through Westchester and 207 st yards. The best was when the excursion train was on the # 1 line. all in all a great day indeed.
True. This was a fun excursion and the #1 line was the best was one of all because Redbirds like the R33WF/36ML never ran on the #1 line & this was the first time.
Well, yes, and no...
The R-36 MLs did run on the 1 in the 1970s (Hell, everything ran on the 1 in the 1970s), and so did the R-36WFs, as seen above, but the R-33WFs had definitely never made an appearance on the Broadway local before (except maybe 9321 heading off for its dip in the Atlantic...)
I was there, WMATA employee shirt, WMATA hat, 6 train pin on the shirt pocket. I don't think I saw you but I saw plenty of others and enjoyed it immensely. Hope to see you all soon!
hi to all. just wanted to say that it was a great trip. i had a pleasure of meeting people that post here and nyc rail.com would like to here what you thought of the trip
Excellent, well-run trip, albeit a bit tiring to ride because of the ambitious itinerary, which included Westchester, Concourse and 207th Street yards. Patience was rewarded with the afternoon sun breaking through for superb runbys on the No. 1 line between 242nd and 125th streets. The photo of the train approaching Dykeman Street was great! Kudos to all who planned and operated this excursion.
Excellent, well-run trip, albeit a bit tiring to ride because of the ambitious itinerary
Did you go on Monday's trip? :) I left CI Yard about 8:45pm!
--Mark
if you dont remember who i was i was the one with the red messenger bag with all the pins on it
That was you! I remember seeing you, you had the IND lines patch in the ID card slot. I had the MTA vest in my leg pocket and yanks cap on. Good to see everyone there!
I have 1 extra ticket. Most of my friends cant make it. So if anyone wants an extra ticket let me know.
How much is the cost? Where do I meet you?
I went on the Redbird Fantrip today and had an excellent time. The train was composed of 4 R-33WF and 2 R-36WF cars. (9318-9532-9533-9333-9345-9334). It is a rare thing indeed to see a single unit R-33 operating any where on the mainline IRT.
We left Grand Central on Track 1 (MM4) and ran south around City Hall Loop and the Lexington Express and Pelham Express to Middletown Road middle, reverse into Westchester Square Yard and do two times around the loop. Then via Pelham and Lexington Express to 86 Street and relay northbound via Lexington Express to 125 Street then Jerome Avenue local to 167 Street then express to Bedford Park middle and down the ramp into the Concourse Yard. We could see one of the R-62's from the Union Square Wreck from the ramp. We ran through the Concourse Yard and then south on Concourse Local to 135 Street and ralayed on track A6. Then north via express directly to 207 Street Yard and once around the loop and up onto the IRT Broadway Line running to 242 Street on the express track. South from 242 St we ran express track to Dyckman, then ran to 137 St, then via Broadway Express track to Times Square.
Sub-talk was well represented; Lou from Brooklyn,Mark Fineman, WMATA,
and West End Man were all there as was Harry Beck from "The Other Side of the Tracks. Also on board was that No 1 Son of the Sea Beach Line aka #4 Sea Beach Fred.
The Car Department ran a great trip and its was nice to see so many friends.
Larry,RedbirdR33
hey Larry hows it going. it was an unbelivable trip. that redbird flew. it was a pleasure meeting you keep in touch.
West End Man: It was a great trip and those Redbirds could always move. One of the fastest spots on the IRT is the run from 125 Street to 86 Street on the southbound express. Trains have been known to exceed the maximum speed there. It was also nice to ride almost all of the Broadway Boulevard Line middle track as thats not usually used even for diversions.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, 9532-33 are R36ML cars. Glad to hear you enjoy the trip very much.
Chaohwa
Chao: You're right. I must have wrote those two numbers down wrong. DId anyone get the right ones?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Maybe it was 9352-53.
Nope -- they were 9532/9533, "mainline" R-36s.
David (who was there)
Harry has posted his photos on his website. The Redbird train did consist of 9532-33.
Chaohwa
I wrote down the numbers but don't have them with me. I can post them later if need be.
Alas, proof that redbirds CAN still run above
96th Street sans "low head clearance" theories..
any trips planned in august ???
did anyone take pics ?? videos ??
No further Redbird fantrips are on the schedule, but since they're supposed to be hanging around for almost another year (well, a very small number of them anyway), I wouldn't be surprised to see another fantrip next year.
And, yeah, I got video from the railfan window of virtually the entire trip. The D-Type trip, too.
--Mark
It wasn't a theory. The condition that caused a temporary ban on "Redbirds" above 96th Street was corrected some time ago.
David
Thx for followup.
Someone posted a few months ago that, at some point during the R-142 influx, a number of Redbirds would run on the 1 line. Do you know if that's currently planned?
"Someone" was wrong. It hasn't happened, and I've never heard that it was ever supposed to happen.
David
This past Saturday, I saw two trains of Redbirds at Atlantic Ave (from the L platform) heading towards New Lots Ave ... I don't know if they were #1 trains or not, however.
--Mark
They may have came from the No.4,5 Lines. They do Lay-up at Livonia.
Did the sighter catch what was on the bulkheads?
Redbirds from the 2 line have used 1 line
trackage post-9/11 so it is quite possible..
And redbirds still DO (at last report) exist
on the 2... so under the current premise, you
CAN see redbirds (using) the 1 line (tracks).
So in a way, they are ON the 1 line, but not
FROM the 1 line.
i did see a few redbird cars on the middle track at around 137th st the other day but in between them was a yellow work train so who knows.could this be a sign? i doubt it
Now if they could only do it again and concentrate on BMT lines with an express run down Bway Brooklyn, I'd go, in the autumn, if there isn't going to be any AC.
There was a GO on the Memorial Day weekend where all Manhattan bound J trains ran express from Eastern Pkwy to Marcy Ave. I went there this past Saturday just to grab that run.
We couldn't do that with the D-Types because M service uses Myrtle Ave middle to terminate on weekends & holidays.
--Mark
any trips planned in august ???
The #2 line has been running only two Redbird trainsets, the #5 has had one official inspection with two coming this week and the Corona Redbirds we rode were in poor shape. Highly unlikely that an 'unrestored trainset' could be available in August. CI Peter
Larry, you should have joined us for the D-Type trip the next day ... the closing run was on the Sea Beach Express, and our one and only Sea Beach Fred was right there foaming at the railfan window during that run!
--Mark
Hey Mark, did you capture Fred on video for posterity?
Maybe incidentally, but not as a feature attraction, no.
I try not to ruin train video with humans wherever possible :) But you'll certainly HEAR him though.
Maybe for "Da Bob & Fred Show" I'll bend my rules a little!
--Mark
Are you planning to be on hand this October? I have a feeling the Bob and Fred Show will be a nonstop three-ring circus.
Yeah, I am.
--Mark
Hey El Marko, if you are going to go commercial on the Triplex tape, you ought to know for a fact that I want one. E-Mail me and let me know, and I will send you the cash for a tape.
I'll be in touch with you for sure. I haven't watched it all yet, but the first 1:20:00 that I saw of it was absolutely wonderful!
--Mark
I would be very interested just for the Sea Beach express jaunt.
Mark: Fred must have been in his glory. Glad to hear that you had such a nice time.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Sea Beach Fred...the only guy wearing shorts on the trips. CI Peter
I see you were paying alot of attention on the M103 and the 6 train, I was too :-)
Hey, Peter, did you like the looks of those people on the R142A when we were going to study how the end door opened and shut? That must have been one of the highlights of the day.
I always study 'humanoid relationship' while traveling public transportation. Problem is that the public expects us to be able to give travel direction... I have been trained in which end of a hypodermic needle is to be picked up...never classed in subway recointering.... always Give Grace when I can say, "Follow the #2 signs until you disappear under the earth." The R142A storm door closures are a laugh...one handle is a fake and the public will wrench both handles until one breaks. You guys missed my post two days ago about nametags...some of us SubTalkers were pretty conspicuous...glad to have met you on the M103. Couldn't miss 'Sea Beach Fred' in that 'get-up.' He was dressed up for an 'Odessa Clam Bake on Oriental Beach.' The crew from Division C was really great and I was really happy that they recognised me as someone who maintains the trainsets...C operates the work trains and I'm in Division A. Time to go 'SK'...shut down...five hours to go for #5 R142 special inspection. Good to have met you. CI Peter
I had a feeling you were going to Grand Central when you got on that bus, after all, how many people get on with an MTA vest on a Sunday afternoon with all that stuff at such an unusual location? That stop doesn't seem like one where you would normally see MTA employees getting on while on duty.
I had a feeling you were going to Grand Central when you got on that bus, after all, how many people get on with an MTA vest on a Sunday afternoon with all that stuff at such an unusual location? That stop doesn't seem like one where you would normally see MTA employees getting on while on duty.
How about getting a real storm door for the R142 and R142A? None of this two door, fake handle nonsense. What was wrong with the old door anyway? Clearly not much, since they have it on the R143.
ADA requires the opening to be wide enough for a wheelchair to pass through. If a single centered sliding door is used, it needs to be no more than 1/3 the width of the car. Apparently the R-143 is wide enough for that condition to be met but the R-142(A) is not.
(Not that I can see why ADA would have such a requirement to begin with.)
Did the people who make sure the ADA is followed realize how unlikely it is for anyone to be in a wheelchair and needing to pass between cars? I haven't seen anyone in a wheelchair not needing to pass between cars. In fact, in all the times I've been on the subway in New York, I have seen one (1) wheelchair rider.
Agreed entirely, but I don't set the rules. I don't see why it's a problem to have non-wheelchair-accessible storm doors on some cars when some other cars' storm doors aren't accessible to anyone at all.
Evacuation in emergencies would be a good reason to have that wide storm door.
--Mark
There aren't any wheelchair riders to evacuate. What are the chances that someone in a wheelchair will want to go between two stations with elevators, they will have to transfer at a station that is accesible, and the elevators will be working?
There aren't any wheelchair riders to evacuate.
Maybe that's because the system is unfriendly to wheelchair riders? If you use the lack of wheelchair riders as the reason for not making the system accessible to them it becomes a self-perpetuating situation. As a user of public transporation, and as a former (and likely future) wheelchair rider myself, I'd like the system to be accessible. I understand that it won't happen overnight, but making the doors of new cars fit a standard chair is a step in the right direction.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We're not talking about the doors into the train. We're talking about the doors between cars of the train. Really, now, how likely are you to have any desire to take your wheelchair from one car to the next?
I did a cursory inspection of the SMEE R33s and determined that they are 'wheelchair friendly' because their condition did not allow them to come to a close and lock securely...they just flopped about loosely with enough space to insert a hand. They failed my inspection. CI Peter
Really, now, how likely are you to have any desire to take your wheelchair from one car to the next?
In the event of a need to evacuate a train I'd like to have the same opportunity as anyone else, especially if that need were due to a fire or smoke condition which could jeopardize my survival. Making the doors a couple of inches wider will enable that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When was the last instance it was necessary (in the name of safety) to evacuate a train by passing between cars?
In the meantime, the rest of us, who do occasionally move from one car to another, cannot do so safely unless we have three hands (two to open the sliding doors and one to hold the grab bar).
If you need more than one hand to open the sliding doors, there's something wrong with the doors.
If a train gets stuck in the under river tunnels, some of them do not have catwalks nor do they have the clearance on the sides of the train even w/o the catwalk to evacuate people. The only way out is through the front or rear storm door.
Wasn't a #5 train recently derailed on the Lex Express due to a broken rail requiring evacuation through the rear car to a rescue train?
This is like car insurance - you can't drive a car w/o it, and you hope you never have to use it.
--Mark
I'd still like to see someone in a wheelchair evacuating through these doors. WHy don't they look at reality. A wheelchair customer is going to need help wheather or not those ridiculous double doors are there or not.
But isn't it much easier to push a wheelchair user in his/her chair than having to remove the person and carry him/her?
The double-handle does make it safer: It discourages people who don't have both hands free from using the doors.
BTW, there's no need to grab any bars, when you let go of one set of doors, you can grab the next, and once the doors have opened enough, only one hand is needed.
Forgive my heresy here but I think it's downright DANGEROUS to allow folks in wheelchairs to go between cars. It's dangerous enough for people not using Wheelchairs. Then again, I'm reminded of ATm DRIVE-THRU machines which have braille keyboards on the CAR DRIVER'S SIDE ATM's for drive-up only. I think Seinfeld could have a field day with this premise but I digress.
Touchy-feely is really out of hand in some spots. I thought "access" was all about being able to USE facilities, not an encouragement for people to die needlessly (I'm sure blind drivers would disagree somehow) ... am I the only one who thinks that this is a really dumb idea? (wheelchairs passing between cars on a MOVING train)
I'm reminded of ATm DRIVE-THRU machines which have braille keyboards on the CAR DRIVER'S SIDE ATM's for drive-up only.
Do you think it's impossible for the car to pull up further and for a rear passenger to use the ATM?
That's kinda stretching it to my own feeble mind. I'm also reminded of a CUOMO administration adjustment under ADA ... larger letters "STOP" inside that red octagonal thing. Justification was so that people with bad eyesight would be able to see the word "STOP" on the sign better. Now pardon me here, but if you had difficulty seeing the red sign to begin with (signs in the northern part of the state say "Arret") then chances are (Sam Kinnison voice here) YOU SHOULDN'T BE DRIVING!
But yeah, maybe you're right. I make no claims to sanity. After all, I hang out here too. Heh. But it sure did take me back a bit seeing braille on ATM's ... then again, I guess it must be the backseat driver who handles the toll booths as well since I've seen braille there too. Having worked for government though, I could see a total disconnect of logic being behind this policy also. Just a thought.
So what is the logic to provide Braille indications for a VISUALLY HANDICAPPED person to access a CRT 'touch screen?' Next: pistols for blind police officers and busses for blind bus drivers. So we'll get a blind Car inspector specializing in tactile inspections. CI Peter
"So what is the logic to provide Braille indications for a VISUALLY HANDICAPPED person to access a CRT 'touch screen?"
The logic is that they use this same equipment in other locations, and there is no point in spending money to make non-braile devices for places where braile cannot be used
Elias
BTW, there's no need to grab any bars, when you let go of one set of doors, you can grab the next, and once the doors have opened enough, only one hand is needed.
So at some point in time, I'm standing between cars with one hand holding a door handle in front of me and the other hand either still holding open the door behind me or in transit from door to door. At that point, let's say the train jerks. My hand is firmly attached -- to a sliding door. The door slides open and I slip off my little platform. Not pretty.
Sorry, when I'm not standing on terra firma, I want to have something to hold onto that will not move with respect to the rest of the train. Before the R-142(A), this was never a problem except between blind ends on R-40(M)'s.
True, one does have to make the cars accessible now if the system is to be accessible in the future. But even so, the design of the door is horrible. Did they get people in wheelchairs to test out different models before they decided on one?
That is a safety thing. The real limiting factor is the gap between cars (the ends are rounded) and cannot accomodate a standard wheelchair. You would get stuck between cars on with a regular chair after getting past the door. Any kind of curve would make that worse.
Sports chairs (or do the beggars use kiddie chairs) seem to work plus the fact that on of the guys that uses one can walk and the others are thin or have no legs to weigh them down.
Again (speaking as a former, and likely future, chair rider), my main concern is being able to (1) get in and out of the system safely and (2) evacuate in the event of an emergency. I certainly would not intend to try and change cars otherwise; I don't do it now even though I can walk reasonably well at present.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not true! I wore shorts on both trips, although not as stylish as Fred's :)
--Mark
hey, Selkirk...
Can you believe they let US two nutcases back on the property??
I learned MY lesson...no more politics :)
Unless being mad at MTA for retiring the R-16 and R-10 is politics
:)
Heh. The place is doomed. No bout adoubt it ... well, here's hoping the civility many learned over at Harry's place hangs on for a while. I never really minded "unsavory" topics - after all, we still have a right to not click on the topical item if we're not interested. Does it for me ... :)
On Saturday I rode the 2 from Brooklyn into Manhattan on my way back to Times Square. It was an R-142, like I had expected. But something strange happened. You all know those maps on the walls of the 142s, with the little lights under each stop that tell you which stops you've passed already, and also which trains you can transfer to at each stop? For some odd reason, the map I was looking at skipped most of the stops in lower Manhattan. I can't remember which ones exactly, but they weren't there. So the automated computer was announcing the stations we were stopping at, but they weren't listed on the map. In fact, the map was also listing MORE trains you could transfer to at each station than what the computer was saying!
The map DID say it was for the local 2, and the stops in Brooklyn were all right, so I can't explain what was going on. However....
When I caught the 2 at the Botanical Gardens stop, the was a "service advisory" poster, saying that the 2 would be stopping on the express platforms. Sure enough, thr 2 pulled in on the express track, rather than the local track. When I first got on the train, there was a lady making announcements for the upcoming stops, rather than the computer. But then the computer took over after a few stops. And what the computer was saying DID match the stations we stopped at; however, the lady computer kept saying that this was a 2 Express to the Bronx, although the LED display said it was a local 2.
I am so confused.
Ummm, the stop you mentioned is Franklin Ave on the 2, not Botanic Garden (which is about 2-3 blocks from the actual Botanic Garden, wassup wit that?)
Oh, sorry. I didn't remember exactly, because I had taken the Q to Prospect Park, and then I took the Shuttle to the Botanical Gardens stop to transfer to the 2, and I assumed it had the same station name.
The 2 strip map dates from before 7/22/01, and it shows the normal service pattern in effect at that time.
Because of 9/11, the 2 now runs local. That accounts for the extra stops in Manhattan. Even before 9/11, the 2 ran local late at night. No matter what, the electronic signs and the automated train identification announcements declare the 2 an express -- I'm not sure where you saw mention of its status as a local.
As for the missing transfer announcements, some of the transfers listed are only available on weedays or even just rush hours, so they're omitted on weekends (assuming the train is properly programmed for weekend service). Some of the missing announcements may have been overridden by the C/R since they're out-of-date due to the 7/22, 9/19, and 12/16 service changes (none of which are reflected in the automated announcements).
Wow. Thanks!
Check them out at The Other Side of the Tracks.
City Hall Loop pictures too!
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
-Harry
You caught Sea Beach Fred at the railfan window with that shot! My videocamera is to his left :)
--Mark
Put me down for a copy of the video.
Simon
Swindon UK
Done.
--Mark
looks like you are using a tripod !!
how did the video come out ?
Not a tripod ... a monopod. It was very light and fit in my camera bag. Very useful for the railfan window and I didn't get tired holding the camera. I don't know how it came out yet - I have yet to watch it myself!
--Mark
.....lol.....!!!!
yea i noticed by the "pic" on Harry "Bs" site "U" had to hold your
cam...>>>>>>up high......above the scratchitti ???....he he he...!
my sony tr416 does not have a flip around lcd screen either.........
however is 'bitchin' at .04 light lux low light minimum....
if "dat" fails the nightshotz switch can be used ............
@ however have to kill de' led that projects the nightshotz beam...
( recieve only ), the A & E trains "R" kinda dark in some places !!
hey man did you eva' shoot at night ?? if so how did it come out ??
......thankz ........
I had to place the camera above the "don't ride between cars" sticker! That's why it was so high.
My camcorder has an LCD screen but I never use it - always the viewfinder. Saves battery life.
I have shot at night and it usually comes out pretty good if there is at least some light I can latch on to. In fact, I spent part of the weekend shooting Stillwell Ave & vicinity at night. I also took some nighttime video from atop the Wonder Wheel.
--Mark
Someone ought to capture a ride on the Cyclone on video and present it to Fred. He could go on a virtual Cyclone ride anytime.:-)
Don't laugh - I was considering doing just that ... after all, sitting in the front seat on the Cyclone is sorta like the railfan window :)
--Mark
wait a minute ! now the railfan window is blocked by some dammed
sticker ..........bummer !!!
man they really want the railfan window to go away !!!!!!!
Salaam - it's a small sticker, relax .....
--Mark
Check out those original roller curtains!
Not to mention Fred's Mets jacket. That's OK; I've got one, too.
Many of you know that I live on a rural road near historic Gettysburg in southcentral PA. There are about 25 homes in a half mile stretch of this country road.
Sometime in the early morning hours last Friday, an anonymous neighbor placed an 8" X 12" American Flag on a stick at the roadside end of each of our driveways. Many of us have been flying larger flags on our homes ever since Sept 11th, but this added touch is just beautiful.
Today, three days later, the sun came out for the first time, all of the flags are still there, and the neighborhood looks wonderful with this patriotic display.
Seeing an American Flag displayed gives me a very special feeling, especially during these last eight months. It is hard to believe that in this day and age, an unknown neighbor would go to the expense of doing this, and that not one of the flags has been disturbed in those 72 hours.
God Bless America!
I'm sure a number of BRT employees saw an opportunity to take the kids to the beach but ya gotta wonder how many employees thought getting on a "subway" on their day off was a party. Don't mind me, I tend to think of things like that. :)
During the era (WWI) many people thought getting on a train or a trolley with a beach or park (or even cemetery) destination for a picnic and day with the family was a most excellent pastime!
Absolutely! Couldn't agree more and years past working for the TA myself, the subways don't say "work" to me any longer. But I wonder how the EMPLOYEES themselves felt about it. "Company outings" back in those days were mandatory in a day of non-unions. If you din't go, you were ... umm ... looked down upon. I'm probably reading a whole lot more into this than I should be but generally if there's a fan trip on da subways, you won't see all that many employees saying, "woohoo! Fan trip! Gotta go" ... except for those in need of some supervision like Unca Peter and a few others of the foam persuasion. :)
But SURE the kids and family probably loved it. Wonder if they had to pay?
Though they're not as common as they once were, I've worked for companies that had company outings, and I've heard from others about company outings of the sort that the BRT EBA (the company union) used to stage.
It's not like people had the opportunity to get in the car and take off for Great Adventure or a golf weekend like a lot of people do today, but instead the nasty company expected you to show up at their stupid picnic. Rather it was, "the company's taking us to the beach, buying us beer and hot dogs, giving the kids some fun, and it's free. Cool!"
We had a company picnic every year at Publishers Clearing House, and while I'm not there any more they still do. They're in Eisenhower Park, though and without a car I never attended them. I didn't get in trouble or anything...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The weirdest company picnic I ever attended was back in the mid-1980's, when I worked for a state agency in Connecticut. "State agency" means, of course, "low budget." It was held at an "outing facility" about ten miles south of Hartford. The facility might have been decent one day but had long since fallen on hard times. The dining pavillion was decrepit and smelled of mold; the water in the swimming pool was a peculiar shade of green; the softball field was overgrown to the point that shorter people could get lost forever in the grass, and the restrooms - no, I can't bring myself to think what they were like. Worst of all, there was a goat farm, of all things, next to the outing facility (run by the same people), and some of the goats wandered over to join our picnic. I really wonder what was in those hot dogs ...
Fortunately, the outing facility and goat farm succumbed to residential development just a couple of years later. I wonder what happened to the goats.
I really wonder what was in those hot dogs...
...I wonder what happened to the goats.
Do we really have to connect the dots for you? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hahahaha ... love Peter's rendition of the Capricorn farm there. Yeah, things were different back in the BRT days and the societal mentality of the time. NOT showing up for an "invitation" was the greatest form of crassness at the time. Any such invite *was* mandatory and woe be to those who "shirked" ... ain't like that in OUR lifetimes, but once upon a time it was an important ... "inducement," especially if it was to be PHOTOGRAPHED (a REALLY big thing for PR - "illustrated") at the time.
Nowadays, if folks don't show up for a "company picnic" it merely means "more swedish meatballs or shrimp for ME!" ... ain't like it used to be. :)
But SURE the kids and family probably loved it. Wonder if they had to pay?
The Earle Naval Weapons Station (New Jersey) has its own railroad to transfer ordnance from inland storage to Navy ships. Once every twenty years they run a fan trip. I rode the one two years ago, and the wives and kids LOVED it. No, they didn't have to pay. Kids were in the cabs with their Dads, Moms rode the coaches and some got out to mingle with the foamers and find out what a photo runby is. We explained photo lines politely, and they understood and tried to keep their kids out of the pictures. A great time was had by all.
Earle NWS train
on the pier
Thank ya, bro ... I've read a number of old documents from the BRT days thanks to a curator who had access to them once upon a time and went NUTS with the "print" button on a microfilm machine long, long ago. BRT had a very interesting relationship with their employees over the years ... and while detailing some of the things I've seen, I wouldn't want to repeat half of them since BRT was VERY "biased" in their whole view of the world and I was amused in learning that the old culture never really went away over the years of this and "consolidation" afterwards. Not even when *I* worked at Stillwell.
Anyhoo, the PRIMARY "employee motivation" was *FEAR* ... also influenced how things went in the MALBONE wreck. As I probably said before, don't mind me ... I can't explain why (and don't believe in Shirley MacLaine or psychic friends network) but the Malbone wreck, the BRT and a rash of other things related to Malbone have an completely inexplicable TWIST on my soul and I have no idea why. Ain't no kook ... well ... maybe, but there's something about Malbone that never stops drawing me into every possible detail I can find. That's why I was interested in the mental viewpoints of the employees.
Once again, I don't know WHAT my own personal malfunction is, but the Malbone wreck was personal to me long before I ever knew exactly where it happened. One of my FEW personal "huh?" 's ...
Once every twenty years they run a fan trip
Every 20 YEARS?!? Gack!
--Mark
Paul,
That picture was great in sepia, but with the flags in color, it is even better!
I always get good photos at this location, outside at my work. I swear I didn't edit these photos at all, except reducing the size.
Before the daylight savings change:
The day after the change:
Excellent pics! What type of camera were you using?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks, I have a Fuji FinePix 2600 zoom digital camera. It cost $300.
I always get good photos at this location, outside at my work. I swear I didn't edit these photos at all, except reducing the size.
I believe you. Those are great photos. Although if there was no time-change, we would see the sun at 4:30 in the morning! (or earlier I don't know exactly)
Where is this by the way?
These are MARTA photos. The trains in the photos are just east of Georgia State station, on the East line. The photos were taken from a walkway just south of the line.
I took this after a huge delay on the North/South line. An RSS (Rail Serivce Supervisor, our version of a TSS) quickly got on at Lingbergh where I was waiting and had to operate the train for some reason. She left the cab door wide open and after slowing down, the cab door slammed shut, pretty much making a corner cab. Then I took this lucky shot. You can see her talking into her radio. She then put the door back to the normal position when we arrived at the next station.
Yeh. They can do this on some of the CTA Chicago subway cars. I got to look out the window on a Ravenswood Train from Belmont to the Loop.
All the old subway/el cars had windows, but the new ones are set up like the MARTA subway cars.
It seems that they have a halfable cab. Does this mean that interrior cars are enabled for passing through?
Yes, even though you aren't supposed to pass through, but that doesn't stop many people from doing it. They are just like WMATA cars.
Well just because you can pass through dosen't mean its smart. On the NYCS it is almost always safe due to the slow speeds. On PATCO it is virtually suicide due to the horrible track conditions and the inter-car motion. Where does MARTA fit in on this scale.
I'd say MARTA is safer than NYCT to walk between cars because:
gentle curves compared to sharp NYCT curves
cars can be closer together than NYCT cars because of the gentle curves
we have accordians on the blind car ends
the ride is much smoother so you won't get jerked around while trying to change cars
It makes me wonder why we aren't allowed to switch cars.
Its really hard to be safer than NYCS cars due to the slow system speeds, large end doors and porch line end platforms. Anyway, MARTA sounds cool and renews my faith in cool transit systems. Could you possibly take a picture of the between cars set up?
No problem. But I'm not riding MARTA on a regular basis for the summer, so I won't be riding all the time. If you give me a week or two, I'll send you an email.
If the total size is bigger than 300k send me a warning. Thanks. I'll post some pics of the PATCO "betweens" soon.
was a transvrse>> closed off cab at first...........................
......then whent back to being a transverse cab .......again..........
>>>>>NO RAILFAN WINDOW<<<<<<<..........!!!!!!!!.........
Glorified bus, or something that could work in certian areas? Story Here
A low rent stop gap non starter from an organization that is ONLY interested in dollar store government. (worth a good laugh, however)
I guess that's why they call it "Cobb county," y'all ... Howdy, Unca Rob! :)
I guess a REAL transportation system would be out of the question.
Unca Rob?? You're old enough to be my grandfather!! Just kidding :-) Or maybe just my dad.
Heh. I call most people I respect "Unca" as in "part of da fambly" ... but I'd put you over my knee and spank ya for that comment but I'm afraid ya'd like it. :)
LOL, that's good to know.
Moo, Brother! Serioously though, sounds like the (ahem) "outer boroughs" get a proper beach-slapping come November. It's a dumbass idea. If Atlanta ain't gonna fold to Charlotte, they'd better come up with something more serious. After all, Charlotte still has some spaces in which to run trains to carry the load. Dumbasses ...
Actually, we have a very serrous light rail is designed. I know they're serious because it already has $300 million out of $2 billion needed in funding. All the studies are DONE, which I know is hard to believe. And there are NO NIMBYs fighting it. It'll go from Midtown to Cobb and will be 25 miles with ~18 stations and carry 70,000 a day, which would make it one of the busiest light rail lines in the country. Considering that the two new bus services that started in November carried double the first year projection on the FIRST DAY, I think the light rail really will be a success.
The cluefulness is surprising in all sincerity. Highways (perhaps I should call them parking lots) have been the rage down there for so long at the expense of mass transit, it's a surprise that they're really going for it. Then again, getting "downtown" in Atlanta has been a longer endeavor for most than in LA or Long Island.
Looking back at the last thing I wrote:
Actually, we have a very serrous light rail is designed.
It sounds really stupid. What I was TRYING to write is "Actually, we have a very serious light rail prosposal, which is currently being designed"
Anyway, we still have some people who want to see our parking lots double decked. Yeah, THAT won't cost a fortune, and forget about the fact that every single overpass would have to be moved and rebuilt.
I sorta followed what you meant - I suffer from happy fingers myself now and then. Heh. I've only been to Hotlanta ONCE and frankly, once was enough. What really amazed me about the place though was that it was like Long Island on steroids - so many highways all coming together into one huge knot where nothing moved. And over the years, I see it's gotten a whole lot worse. Since I have friends and relatives down that way, Atlanta always comes up somewhere as everyone being amazed that it hasn't choked itself to death yet and how the politicians go out of their way to screw up every good idea. Well, you know - you've said so much yourself. :)
Maybe there's hope after all!
You should have went to the real ATL away from the highways and inside the Perimeter. Most people who visit and stay away from the highways like it here. And the traffic isn't that bad either, no joke. It suprises many people how vibrant Atlanta really is. You only hear about the bad things and not the good ones. We don't even have a single f$#$ing Wal-fart either!! However, outside the Perimeter, it's a whole different world. I don't consider it part of Atlanta. It's just generic suburbs with traffic 24/7, strip malls and Wal-farts.
Heh. Most are up in SC, others are in ... gasp! KENNESAW. :)
You wanna tell the folks what makes Kennesaw special? (as in "don't leave home without it?") Heh.
Oh, Christ. I learned about this last year when the AJC had a historical report about it. Back in the 60s, they came up with an ordinance saying that everyone resident must carry gun. This got nationial publicity for this nowhere town, even the AJC had to explain to Atlantans where Kennesaw was. Because of all the publicity (I presume bad), they "ammended" the ordinance to say that "eveyone must carry a gun, unless you don't want to." Basically, it's a pointless resolution. The report I read last year said that only one person in the town actually carries a gun everywhere, some burned out redneck who hasn't left the town in decades.
To make this transit related, that area and the county above it, Cherokee county, don't want anything to do with transit. The light rail will end just before reaching Kennesaw (actually, it's not really needed up there anyway) and Cherokee was one of only two Atlanta counties (out of 12) did not want to be a part of a metrowide express bus system. The bus system, by the way, will start service sometime next year.
Kennesaw was formerly known as Big Shanty, Georgia - the starting point for The Great Locomotive Chase.
Heh. Hand that man a ceegar! Yeah, had friends and folks out that way so I got a dose of all parts of the state from Shiny CNN Center to "Dukes of Hazzard" ... I love New York. :)
If you're ever going down to Big Shanty, let me know. I can show you what a REAL subway looks like.
Heh. Sounds like Hotlanta don't suck quite as much lately. :)
I say this respecting some of your recent rants. But yeah, if I ever find myself on the Ted Turner highway in search of cubic zirconia, will definitely take you up on it. But since I live near Canada, hope you don't mind if I schedule it for a Januaryish date. Moo!
I guess 'Bus Rapid Transit' was so giggle inducing that they decided to change the name to 'Flex Trolley'. The NY State DOT wants to do them too on the Southern State, only they call them 'Rapid Commute Vehicles"
Whatever. It's a bus. A bus is a bus is a bus. And the word 'Bus' has such a stigma in the US that nobody canseriously propose a 'bus system' without being defeated.
Interestingly, the article forgets to mention the system in France was amazingly buggy, and I believe has already been slated to be replaced by, you guessed it, light rail.
It's just the latest fad in buses, no more, no less.
"Glorified bus" isn't what I'd call it. It looks like who ever thought this up rode on amusement park guided kiddy cars recently, and was impressed.
I've been following the trade papers and industry reports on this mode for a few months. It does seem like the sponsoring corporation spend a HUGE load of money on development, and is now looking to create a market for it.
The sellers are trying every US city large enough to have light rail in mind (and a transit budget large enough to support it) to recover the development costs incurred.
Who is going to pay for this? You, Mr. & Mrs. John Q. Public, little Johnny and Janet too depending on the funding package, if they are successful.
It doesn't work in its homeland, its certainly not going to work in the American environment.
"it does seem like the sponsoring corporation spend a HUGE load of money on development, and is now looking to create a market for it. "
Out of curiosity, that couln't be a large, well known, Canadian firm, by any chance, could it?
MMMMMMMMMMM Coooould beee! :-)
It'll be interesting to see what transpires in the next two years or so. It is so hampered with serious bugs, mainly concerning guideway control.
It is on the market as a "cheaper" alternative to light rail. So far it is only cheap when new. The current lack of industry standards lock the end user into forever being supplied by the particular seller for not only vehicles, but infrastructure. Econ101 sez: When you have only one source for supplies....
I passed by the Cortlandt St. N/R station entrance today, and saw that the staircase down to the northbound platform has been updated to say "Enter for Uptown and Queens Trains. For Downtown Service, Use City Hall or Rector Street Station."
I don't know what they are up to there but I saw that sign already in mid-April.
From the look underground, it seems that they are almost ready to open the n/b platform.
The s/b platform will have to wait, as the only access was through the WTC concourse area.
The s/b platform will have to wait, as the only access was through the WTC concourse area.
How was the sb platform set up before the WTC was there?
Can't tell for sure, but my Hagstrom's map of lower Manhattan shows some standard exits to the street that were definitely fictional pre-9/11. (An example of a map company failing to notice a change.) Basically my map hows street exits on the west side of Church street exactly in mirror image to those on the east side.
Closing the street stairs on the WTC side and forcing everybody to either go through the WTC mall (walking a superfluous block either south or north to do it and then one block back, or in on the Uptown side and then UNDER the tracks to get to the Downtown side) was a bad mistake.
I know the MTA like to bar exits but that was ridiculous. I wonder how many people get trapped in disasters and then find that the exits were downsized?
Before the WTC, the exits were to the street. The WTC construction covered over the street exits.
Right now, if the exits to the street were restored they would be blocked by the construction trailers.
what about the underpass from NB to SB. is that OK or is it damaged?
Prior to 9/11 and after the WTC was built (i.e. 9/10/01) the station had two underpasses: The North underpass which was full-time and the SOuth which was part-time and conencted to 1 Liberty Plaza and the WTC Mall.
I saw it at the end of March.
While you're having your cook-out today, take a moment to remember those who have fallen.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is that your license plate?
- Lyle Goldman
It's Steve's. I was visiting him in Denver last fall. Mine says TROLLEY.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yep, I witnessed the photographing, too.
Now you know.:-)
P. S. I even turned my Jeep around so the rear plate would face the sun. The front plate has a dinged-up plastic cover over it.
By next week it will have reached 460,000 miles.
Great pic! Thanks for scanning it.
Well, it took me long enough... would you believe I just finished that roll of film two weeks ago? Sent Dave two of the pics I took of 108 at the end of the line, thought he might want to add them to his Denver page.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Too bad Ed Sachs didn't tell me he was going to be in Denver. I would have loved to meet him.
One of these days I'm going to go through my light rail photos and pick out some of the better ones for scanning. They ran a ceremonial four-car train when the Central Platte Valley Spur opened in April, and I made a bunch of people mad when I jumped in front of their video cameras to get a picture of it as it made its way down 16th St.
Today I saw a preview for the new Men in Black II movie while watching Star Wars II.
It showed a brief clip from the scene where Jay (Will Smith) crashes into a subway car through the railfanner's window and alerts everyone that an alien is coming. The alien then chews up the car.
I took a good look in that scene and saw that it was an R-32, car # 3609.
Just FYI. =D
The trailer is here.
It opens with a consist of two pair of Pelham redbirds blowing through something pretending to be Prince Street and Broadway. An R-32 is presumably on the adjacent track.
Mark
And there's a shot in an IND station later on in the trailer.
Mark
man i wish it could have been all R 44s !! rinos & hippos ...!!
& R-142s !!!
............lol........!!
why destroy a rail fan window equipped rail car ???
I dunno, Salaam, but I think it could be a conspiracy involving the MTA with company payoffs and all that! OK, I got overboard... ;)
omg
Might have been a mockup or something like that; though I have not seen the trailer yet - I show R32 Phase II #3608-3609 as being part of the Coney Island Yard ("N" group) although I have no recent (2002) sightings of it. I last spotted it on August 23, 2001 in "N" service.
wayne
That's not an R-32; look at the side windows. And what's with the fans?
Could be a mockup or one of the Money Train R-30s with its doors painted silver.
Or Toronto's which is commonly used (more often than NYC).
I looked at the teaser trailer today carefully on the internet, and the car was signed as a C train.
Feh. So they much some redbirds ... let's face reality, Bro ... them things these days chew like SALTINES fer krissakes. :)
Moo.
I operated the R-16s on the Canarsie and Broadway-Jamaica Lines in the early 1980s. I'll be quite honest with you; the R-16 in its twilight were probably the worst pieces of equipment in the "B" Division. You'd be lucky on a weekend, with a four car train, to have two cars with good motors. Usually you'd have one dead and the other taking series only. Sometimes it was a coin toss if you were going to make it over the Williamsburg Bridge. Don't get me wrong; the R-16s definitely should be remembered and the ones that are left should be refurbished as museum pieces but as a favorite running car they weren't mine.
I also read someplace, I think it was in Greller's book, that prior to a snowstorm, the R16's were moved to the Canarsie line because it was mostly a tunnel and they operated better there.
Were they even maintained in the early 80's? The R16's were basically put into storage in the late seventies only to see life because of the truck problems with the R46's.
Actually, my recollection is that the R-16 cars held down the service in the Eastern Division because the R-9s were retired not so much for the R-46 truck problem. The R-46 truck problem was a blessing in disguise as I made big bucks waiting on the Sea Beach southbound express in the wee hours of the morning to have the trucks checked by C&S at Coney Island Yard.
So did I. Every Wednesday for about 4 months double on my RDO with 2 no lunches! 25 paid hours!
Heh. Love it ... when I did my (short) gig, I was *amazed* at the hours I'd put in for a 7.50 day. :)
The 6400 series R16's were all mothballed in 1977. The 6300 series were transferred (or returned, as some might say) from Jamaica to ENY after the last R7/R9's were scapped in late 76/early 77. The 6400's were returned to service in 1980 and remained on the eastern division into 1986.
I thought only the 6300's went back to the Eastern Division from 1977 to 1987 and the 6400's were never heard from again.
As far as signs go, most of us have not seen any evidence of their numerical route signs having any designations below Route #10.
were the 6400s worse than the 6300s?
Yes, they were. There was a problem with the General Electric propulsion package on the R-16s. The Westinghouse cars (6300s) didn't have that problem -- not that they were exactly superstars themselves.
David
The 6300s outlasted the 6400s by many years, the last few being retired in 1987 vs. 1976 or so.
David
Some 6400's were still operating in 1986. I rode them extensively on the M.
I now ask that anyone out there who kept records of what cars he or she rode in 1986 look at those records. I was riding that same M line in 1986 and was seeing 6300s. The 6400s were retired in the late 1970s -- they were the GE cars and NYCT(A) couldn't wait to see them go.
David
David: In December of 2001 I did some fairly detailed research into the question of when the R-16's made their last runs.
Here is basically a reprint of my findings;
August 26,1977 was supposed to be the last day for the R-16s. There was one train on the J and another on the LL. However the R-16s subbornly refused to go. On September 8 and for about three more weeks a train of R-16s was on the GG. A ten car train was on the N from September 19-22. October 20 was the last day that they were reported in service on the GG.
However on February 17,1978 a couple of trains of both the 6300 and 6400 series were in service on the LL and ran at least until April 14.
Sometime in mid-July 1979 they started to go back into service on the LL. To the best of my knowledge this was only the 6300s.
By March 1983 all 6400 were out of service. I believe that that sat in the yards in dead storage for the last few years.
The last remaining R-16s were ordered out of service on June 26,1987. Unfortunately there does not seem to be any record of the actual last run and the cars involved.
My personal records indicate the following:
On May 27,1986 I rode all the R-16's that were in service that day on the L. This was a total of 56 cars and they were all 6300's.
The last record that I have of riding an R-16 was on April 15,1987 on the R Myrtle-Nassau-4 Avenue serice from Myrtle Avenue (Bway) to Canal Street. The consist was 6307-6316-6331-6343-6350-6381-6397-6398. This may seem like a strange route but in 1987 there was an overlapping of the M Myrtle-Nassau-West End service and teh R Myrtle-Nassau-4 Avenue serice.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
By March 1983 all 6400 were out of service.
Not true. I saw 6400 series cars in 1984!
Chris. Would you have the date and route that you saw the 6400's on? This would be most useful. The only 6400 that I remember in later years was one sitting on the yard track next to Rockaway Parkway Station. It may have been in use as a yard office.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
They were on the J. I rode them very late in the year when I traveled to Manhattan after school to meet my mother to do Christmas shopping.
I wish I remembered the exact numbers.
WAAAAAYYYYYYNNNNNE!!!!
I worked the M in 1986. I was there when they arrived. They were pulled off the Canarsie line since they had Ninth Ave. signs and would get less mileage operating on the M. When they were mercifully retired, I was still on the M. During that period of time only 6300 series Westinghouse cars were used. The only time I ever operated a 6400 series car was when I broke in for yard qualification at ENYD. I never operated a 6400 series car on the M and never even saw one. I remember a few 6400's on the L after they were resurrected, but they quickly were put back into storage due to horrific performance.
Bill: The R-16s were out of service as a group for sme period of time. When they did return to service in seems that the 6300's predominated. However based upon what you say it seems that some attempt was made to return the 6400s to service also but they were in such bad shape that the TA decided tat it was not worth the effort.
BTW I like the picture of the BU on the June Calender. IT really captures the feeling of the old els.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I rode 6400 R16's on the M in the late spring of 1986, on the L & M.
I remember seeing a J train or two of R-16s on the Nassau loop in 1985 or 1986. Didn't ride on any; I just wanted to catch a glimpse of those R-16s and see for myself that they were in fact single cars. I did ride on an R-16 M for maybe two stops in October of 1986. For some reason 6321 comes to mind; either I saw it or actually rode on it. For the record, nothing unusual happened. The doors opened and closed and the train appeared to run fine.
My sister has a photo of an R-16 interior taken by a friend of hers. I noticed it one day and upon closer examination said, "That's an R-16." The slanted door pockets gave it away. Speaking of those slanted pockets, I said to myself, "That's not how they used to be" when I was on that M train. 19 years earlier during my first R-16 ride, the door pockets were still nice and straight.
Those slanted walls looked silly. It made the whole depressing and gloomy feel of the R16's even more depressing and gloomy.
They sure looked a lot better in their original appearance!
I didn't even realize they had regular walls at one time, until someone posted a photo of one them months ago, and they were straight. I only remember them with the slanted walls.
The first 20 cars delivered, 6400-6419 did not even have standee poles when they were delivered in the winter of 1954-55. I read somewhere that they were eventually retrofitted with poles.
I rode several of those cars without poles during rushhour, and that was some experience.
I didn't see any R16s anywhere in the system from Spring '77 to '82 or '83. During that time I thought they'd been retired. On both ends of that time spectrum, they were on the Canarsie Line. When they returned, they were also seen on the Jamaica line- I last rode one on the J from the Junction to (the late) Metropolitan Avenue in September '84. It didn't seem like they'd been overhauled in any way during their long absence- they looked and ran as bad as ever.
The last time I rode one at all was on the L in late October '86, right before the Mets won the Series, from 8th to 1st Avenue. It seemed to have trouble running along nice, level 14th Street- how in the world did it ever make the steep climb out of the portal up to the Junction upper level?
At that point, the L was predominately pre-GO 27/30s with occasional 42s. Once, in spring '84, I even got an R32 on the L. ENY must have had a few 32s at the time, because I also got one on the J that summer. Can't remember if the bulkhead sign had been converted to the 1979 colors, or if was the original 'letter in a bullseye' in 1967 colors.
The absolute last time I saw a 16 in service was when I stopped for a light and saw one pass overhead on the Astoria el. It was in November '86.
If I do a little digging I'll find a copy of the GO that ended the R-16s. If I'm not mistaken the last R-16s ran their last miles out on the Eastern Division in March of 1986.
May 1987. An incident in the Montague St. tunnel led to the remaining handful still in service to be yanked.
What happened in the Montague tunnel then?
A pull apart. But the pull apart was not a question of the couplers giving way. The coupler actually sererated from the car body. So one car had both couplers and the other had no coupler at all!
LOL......hearing that today would surprise me, but back then anything was obviously possible. It shows you what a disaster the subway was, and how far it's come in the last decade or two.
I never realized that riding an R16 was actually dangerous until I discovered this board.
There was an article in the Times about the demise of 6321. It was a rolling wreck by the time it was yanked.
I rode several R16's on the J from 1979-85. In 1983-85, the 6400 series were quite prevelant on the J.
The R-16s were allergic to bad weather; IIRC their door engines were the primary cause. And yes, they would be sent to the Canarsie line and BMT standards would do battle on the Myrtle Ave., Broadway, and Jamaica lines.
I still don't fully understand why the R17, mechanically identical to the R16, had a much better maintenance record, at least until the depths of the late 1970's started affecting all car types.
Lucky me..I'm a living witness to the swapping of R16's and AB's during snowstorms. Only once but well after the r16's became the sole cars for the 15-Jamaica el service I got to ride AB's on to Jamaica on the el in a snowstorm.Not that I cared but rode R16's on Canarsie the same day.
As for their 1976 reassignment to Canarsie indeed they took up wher the R9's were being retired. but with some service reductions of the period all the R9 were gone before the last of the R46 were delivered/ in service.
Were the signs (front on the R-16s and sides) set correctly on both trains?
Steve: It was always possible to see an R-16 with signs for the #14 and the #15. If you were patient you could usually see one or two trains about three times a week on the #10 and the #16. Same way that an occasional Standard would turn up on the #15. The R-16's did make a brief appearance on the Franklin Shuttle (about a week) at some time in the mid-60's. I would be curious to learn how they were signed as they only carried Eastern Division readings.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Could the numbered signs also included #7? I saw a photo (think it was in the "Farewell" section) of an R27/30 signed up as #5 - CULVER - and it looked to be a post-war type of sign, similar in style to the ones I remember seeing on the R16s when they carried such signs. So a route number that low could have been on the roll as well. Perhaps it was salvaged from an R16 when the rollsigns were changed - on those cars, that could have been in the late 60s.
wayne
>>Could the numbered signs also included #7?<<
I have a roll sign rescued from a scrapped R-16 and #7 Franklin is on it. Most of those scrapped R-16's still had their number route signs on the front with the glass painted red. They painted the glass red when the cars were painted the same color. At that time, the new larger color route signs were installed in the front destination part. Those signs were shortened Eastern Division signs while the sign I got had Southern and Eastern Division designations.
Bill "Newkir"
Did it also have #1 thru #5 ?
>>Did it also have #1 thru #5 ?<<
It has 1,2,3,4,5,7,10,14,15,16
Bill "Newkirk"
I never was so lucky other than in that snowstorm to catch a standard on the 15 [should specif here that the AB never had numerical signs...15 trains were Jamaica Local or Jamaica Express. Agreed I saw R16's on the 14 [sometimes with an R11 on the point] and the 10 [maybe 16 too] but didn't care as my aim was to ride the first generation stuff. For Steve B question about signage in those days cars were routing-flexible; I know the R16 had all the Eastern signage but can't remember if they had Southern as well, probably as the standards did. BTW they also had BU's running to Jamaica in that bad storm...only to clean the third rails, running light. 1300's IIRC, although the 700's were kept at Fresh Pond for that duty...I think even as late as this 1956 incident. They were motorized from 1887 steam coaches.
AFAIK the R-16s had only Eastern Division number signs on their original route curtains. Those that ran on the A during the late 50s had A signs as well, naturally.
I believe they had Eastern Division BMT signs AND all IND signs. About 40 of them went to the GG for a few months in 1965 or 66 and were perfectly signed for that service.
Those R-16s which filled in on the GG in 1966 were fitted with GG signs when they were loaned to Jamaica Yard to help ease a car shortage brought on by a massive R-1/9 failure rate at the time. It also resulted in a group of condemned BMT standards being given a last minute stay of execution. They were pulled off the scrapline, had the S for Scrap painted over, and were put back in revenue service.
IIRC, the R16 had all the BMT numbers on their rollsigns prior to 1969 and the switch to the psychadellic letters they had until they were scrapped.
Say, Ed. Is it true that the NYCTA put in that switch-track to the LIRR Bay Ridge line (just outside of New Lots Ave. on the Canarsie Line) specifically to scrap the R-16's? That's what I was told...any truth there?
Guess that was after my time Doug. I don't remember a switch there at all and the last R9 were scrapped about four months before my resignation and move west in 1977.Whatever R16 remained were around well after I left perhaps another 5-6 years.I never knew about a connection there until I learned about a new NYCT yard there--Linden Yard is it? thru Subtalk maybe 1-2 years ago.But it wouldn't surprise me if your thought about the scrap deal there is right.
Thanks for your input. Yeah, my source told me NYCTA did that so they didn't have to deal with hauling the cars back to Coney Island yards. They merely took a torch to them right there on the LIRR tracks (since they weren't heavily used back then).
I remember seeing them in a yard off of the LL elevated portion...maybe near New Lots Ave? Anyway, somewhere around where the 3 and the LL cross. I knew they were there to be scrapped because it was about a week after I noticed that the R-16's were gone.
Was a sad day for a J Train/R-16 fan.
footnote:
I always was under the impression that they didn't save any of the R-16's- imagine my joy when I first saw thwm at the Transit Museum :)
It brought back a flood of good R-16 memories...plus a few bad ones thrown in for good measure.
Sounds like a deal; saves labor and power costs both fr dead mileage.
A train of BMT Standards regularly ran to Jamaica in the morning rush hours in the early '60s. In 1962 and '63 I'd see it, IIRC, running light to 168th Street and departing inbound around 7:45 a.m. in regular service (which was skip-stop during rush hours). Because my travel schedule to junior high school was well-padded back then, I'd make a point of heading to 168th so I could enjoy a ride on the Standards for several stations, then double back to Sutphin Boulevard. Oh - the roll signs usually read "Broadway-Brooklyn Local," with destinations of 168th Street and Canal Street, as a kind of extension of the 14 service. It was a nice diversion from the otherwise endless stream of R16s on the 15 line.
That was in fact the service pattern for the 14 during AM rush hours. During PM rush hours, some trains would go as far as Crescent St. while others would turn off to Atlantic Ave. or Rockaway Parkway. All #14 trains terminated at Canal St. in Manhattan.
Virtually every route sign on the BMT standards was abbreviated to some extent.
Did the Standards have signs for 168th St?
I seem to remember them saying "Jamaica".
If the scroll signs on Joe Korman's website are any indication, the BMT standards had "Jamaica" signs. They did not say, "168th St."
Steve is right - the signs read "Jamaica." Forty years does that to your memory sometimes ;-)
It's understandable. Time has a way of fading memories. I know that the R-16 side signs said 168th St, and since they were on the 15 line at the same time as the Standards, you just got your car memories mixed up.
The Standards also had a sign for Crescent St and 111th St, but I don't recall them ever using it, at least not in my time living there.
I believe I heard that way way back when they terminated trains at 111th Street.
111th Street, was the destination of the Lexington Avenue EL Trains
from Downtown Brooklyn a/o Park Row. Way before most of us on this
board.
1939 BMT Guide says service on the #12 Lexington Ave. Line between
Eastern Parkway & Sands Street. Extended rush hours to 111th Street
on Jamaica Line. Also Saturday PM service to 111th Street.
:-) Sparky
111th Street, was the destination of the Lexington Avenue EL Trains from Downtown Brooklyn a/o Park Row. Way before most of us on this
board.
Hey I was only born in 1970. I learned here that they used to use 111th St as a "short run terminal". Was that the regular terminal of the Lexington Line or did Lex trains go to 168th occasionally? Also, did the Lexington line ever just terminate at Jay Street like the Myrtle line did after the Brooklyn Bridge close to trains, or was the Lex line abandoned already. I also think the Myrtle line terminated at Sands Street or Adams street for a while. Anyone Know?
I know the bridge closed in '44 due to a fire at Park Row, but did the stations west of Bridge St. (the terminal for the Myrtle Ave. el until 1969) close at the same time?
I'm not sure, but I think they terminated at Sands Street for a while also.
After the last train crossed the bridge on March 5th 1944, the Park Row and Sands St stations were razed. Bridge-Jay St became the new end of line for the Lex, Fulton-Lex & the Myrt.
Bridge-Jay station was badly damaged by fire on Apr. 20, 1946, but was quickly rebuilt.
Karl,
Fulton~Lex? Never seen any reference to that service.
:-) Sparky
The 1300 series cars, along with a few 200 series trailers ran between Bridge-Jay and Grant Ave. Normally three car trains, they were increased to six cars for rush hour. An operation similar to 111th St to add or cut cars was handled east of Grant Ave on the center track, but I was not as familiar with it as 111th St.
It has been said here that some of these trains ran all the way to Lefferts Ave (Blvd). I personally never saw one of these trains.
The closing of the Lex resulted in the transfer of the 1300's to the Myrtle Ave line. The 600's, 900's, 1200's & 1400's from the Lex & the Myrt seemed to disappear from revenue service, but were apparently not scrapped for some time.
Karl B. & Chris R27-R30,
Thanks for the input referencing "Fulton\Lex" Elevated services.
Then during the nineteen forties, between City Line and Atlantic,
it was possible to have three distinct services with three car types
individual to its own service.
Fulton~Lex with BUs, 14th Street~Fulton with Multis & Fulton Els
with Cs. Talk about mix & match.
Karl, as for the 1200s, thank the heavens for they helped save 1227,
unmodified.
:-) Sparky
PS- I never had the opportunity to ride the Lex in Brooklyn. Did
ride the Myrtle with BUs & Qs and the Fulton with Cs & Multis.
:-) Sparky
Where did the Lex turn off from Myrtle to get to Lexington, i.e., what street did it run over? Thru Pratt?
Grand Ave!
The Lex ran right straight through what was to be Pratt campus. You can still see where the columns were on the Grand St. pavement next to the Main Building powerplant (between Willoughby Ave and DeKalb), and there are two manholes on what used to be the sidewalk in frnt of the Engineering Building covering conduits carrying live power feeds. The DeKalb Ave station was next to Pratt Studios, and if they haven't redone the sidewalk there, the stairway imprint is (was) still in the sidewalk.
Conrad Milster, Chief engineer at the Pratt powerplant has an album of photos of the Lex taken from his building during operation, and when they tore it down. He also has some great slides of the Myrtle Ave. intersection of Grand, where the originally two separate els turned away from each other at 90 degree angles - and the splices added to make Myrtle a thru run a few years later. What an interesting structure that thing was when it all was up over there.
When we traveled past Pratt on that last train, we could hear singing. Several passengers remarked that the Pratt Choir or Glee club was probably serenading the "Last Lex".
I used to love to spend time at the junction of Myrtle and Grand. The walkover joining the two platforms was a great place to watch the trains. If I only had a camera in those days.
The following year they were singing the Xmas song: "Noel, Noel..."
Rim shot!
There is a photo in the 1956 Americana Annual with a lady standing at Third Ave. holding a "Happy No El" placard as the el was being dismantled.
Conrad Milster still Chief there? Gad he was chief 40 years ago when I knew him but not very well. A rail and maritime historian like a lot of us Connie had served on the Hudson River Day Line's Robert Fulton. Maybe I misundersood, Iknow he could be pensioned off by now.
Ed: So you remember the Hudson River Day Line. They were so reliable that my grandfather set his clock by the boats whistle when they docked at Bear Mountain.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I still remember a TV commercial from the 60s for the Dayliner. My mother was seriously considering taking us for a ride on it until she heard some unfavorable comments (too dirty, kids running wild, etc.).
Steve: It was true that there was some unpleasant on the boats but after the close of the 1962 season Hudson River Day Line,Inc. was purchased by Circle Line Sightseeing Yachts. They continued to operate Hudson River Service as Day Line Inc. One of the first things the Circle Line management did was to increase security on the boat. They did this by using existing Federal Law. All masters (captains) of inland and coastal vessels are licensed by the Coast Guard. They have virtually the same authority as airline pilots to insure the safe operation of their craft. Miscreants were locked up in one of the cabins and handed over to the police at the first landing. One word of this got around the troublemakers tended to stay off the boat.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes inded. Had the honors of sailing several times every summer onthe Hamilton, for 14 summers 1958-71, sailed on her last trip Labor Day 71.Did a few trips on the Stuyvesant here and there, sorry I missed the Robert Fulton. FOR STEVE B: the "Dayliner" went into service in 1972, a diesel vessel that replaced the beloved Sidewheeler Alexander Hamilton. I don't remember too many disturbances on the regular trips but I heard after I moved west by the 1980's things got tough.But I'd be a liar if I said there weren't problems sometimes. Sadly you can't see the Hudson on any large vessel like it used to be. Geez wonder if the city could consider running weekend cruises up the Hudson with an idle Staten Island ferry. I see no reason they don't have or couldn't get Coast Guard licensing to sail at least some ways up the Hudson. make some revnue to help pay for the free ferry.
That TV commercial I remember refers to a "picturesque sidewheeler".
Nah, Conrad is still Chief at Pratt Institute's Engine Room, and will be for some time to come.
Their New Year's Eve Whistle Blow has become a Clinton Hill must-do event too.
The el structure on Lexington and on Grand seemed to be a much narrower than the el on Myrtle. There was a certain mystique to the old side platform stations on the Lex. I really liked them, and IIRC all of the stations on Lexington Ave & Grand Ave were side platform.
I got to use the side platform station at Crescent & Liberty on the Fulton St Line on many occasions. That one lasted six years later, and was very similar.
The original Marcy Ave station on Broadway was also similar, but was much longer. For some reason that one scared the hell out of me.
This service was instituted after the Fulton el was shortened to Rockaway Ave. It usually ran from City line via the Pitkin Ave el, through Atlantic Ave, across the Canarise flyover, down Broadway to Gates, then on Lexington Ave to whatever southern terminal was aplicable.
KARL B. answered part of the question. As I think about it the south [BMT directions were North City Bound and south outward bound] terminal for the Lex. el was Eastern Parkway [Broadway] sometimes and other [I'd guess rush hours] 111 St.[Jamaica] Karl would know better; I hadn't ventured that way that early'''born 1943. Diid catch Myrt though...even ran Q's there.
I guess the Lexington trains never regularly went all the way to 168th St. Terminating at 111th was quite a way from the end of the el at the time. With the current setup for the J train, I always think of 111th St as almost near the end.
I guess the Lexington trains never regularly went all the way to 168th St.
Lex Ave trains terminated at 168th St at all times from 7/3/18 - 4/1/23. After that only rush hour trains terminated at 168th St through the mid 1930's.
My 1931 BMT Map shows Lexington Ave Service terminating at 111th St or 168th St during Rush hours only. The 1937 map shows RUSH HOUR Lexington Ave service terminating at 111th St only. Non-Rush hour trains on both maps terminated at Eastern Parkway. So sometime between 1931 and 1937 the Lex stopped running to 168th St.
I guess that explains why there is a center track at 111th Street.
Not necessarily, didn't 111th St serve as the last stop for a short period of time when the Jamaica el was originally built.
They would have needed a third track to turn back trains then.
Oops, the previous post was supposedeto lookm like this:
111th Street, was the destination of the Lexington Avenue EL Trains from Downtown Brooklyn a/o Park Row. Way before most of us on this
board.
Hey I was only born in 1970. I learned here that they used to use 111th St as a "short run terminal". Was that the regular terminal of the Lexington Line or did Lex trains go to 168th occasionally? Also, did the Lexington line ever just terminate at Jay Street like the Myrtle line did after the Brooklyn Bridge close to trains, or was the Lex line abandoned already. I also think the Myrtle line terminated at Sands Street or Adams street for a while. Anyone Know?
GP38, go to http://www.bmt-lines.com, that's where I been referencing for the information. I'm sure you'll find it useful.
:-) Sparky
John,
111th St used to be a great place to watch trains. They would add two cars to three car trains at the beginning of rush hour, and remove two cars from five car trains at the end of rush hour. Extra cars were stored on the center track. Actual coupling and uncoupling was done east of the station on the center track.
I used to hurry to finish my paper route, and take a train out from Crescent St to watch the action. This all ended on Oct 13th 1950 with the running of the Last Lex. After that, the gate cars were gone & 111th St was just another station stop for the Standards passing through.
In my time Bridge-Jay St was the terminal at the other end.
Karl B.,
Your additional input in reference to 111th Street, was fantastic.
Those of ya who were there to see it in actuality and inform us
youngers. I know the EL structure was there in the early fifites,
but I never rode that line. Rode under it on the way to Prospect Park
on an ETB on the B-48. You may have a few years on me.
Brooklyn Bridge/Sands Street was cut back to Jay Street in 1944 and
the Lex ran till 1950. So I would say your presumption of service
from Jay Street to 111th Street is decorous.
:-) Sparky
I found out that 111th St had its charm during the middle of the day too. It was a very quiet station then, with idle gate cars setting on the center track. Every so often the stillness was interupted by a compressor kicking on, and then off. What a beautiful sound!
Karl,
At Branford, we can recreate that sound, just park 1227/G at Ave. "EL"
platform and left the compressor on.
:-) Sparky
I still have hopes of getting there someday, and hearing that!
I'd love to see 1349's restoration finished, the car painted in Last Lex green (on both sides), and see it coupled to 1227.
Karl,
I agree with you about 1349. It needs a guardian and TLC plus $$$.
There has been some work done on it. There are still some of us
who remember the BUs.
:-) Sparky
Hi Sparky,
I certainly do. I lived two blocks from the Vanderbilt Ave. Station and remember riding them up until they were replaced by the "Q" cars. What a treat in the summer time when they would take the glass panels out of the middle windows and the cool evening breezes would blow through. Those were the days.
Sincerely,
Bklynsubwaybob
Bob,
If you visit Branford in good weather, you can recreate the ride
on a 1904 BRT Convertible #4573 with natural air conditioning.
It isn't an BRT EL car, just a BRT Streetcar. Same principle though!
:-) Sparky
I saw some pictures of 1349 from several years ago when they were moving her around from one barn to another at Branford, and she really looked good.
I know you can't judge much from pictures, but it gave me hope that someday she might be up and about.
Karl,
When I got active at Branford in 1985, 1349 was in the shop being worked on.
The situation with it's Guardian has changed, as so many
things in life. You know it a beech.
But seriously, the Branford collection of BRT wooden els cars is
unique and such a pastorial setting. Now if we only had the man power
and $$$. I know many cars have Guardians and Wishes. I can dream on.
:-) Sparky
There is a roster picture somewhere of 659 that was taken at Branford around 1969, and she looked great. The following years were not kind to her and I believe Jeff H told me that she was a flood victim too, and is in rough shape now.
I don't think that I understand this Guardian business to which you refer. Is each piece of rolling stock under the personal care of one member?
Karl B.,
Sorry about the confusion with reference to Guardians. I use the lexicon to refer to members, whom have that liking for a particular car and devote most of their time to it. Over the past 18 years of activity at Branford, have seen many custodians.
But due to the circumstances of life, they can not fulfill their craving to see it brought back to life. I'm considered a watchdog of the Brooklyn cars, being from the borough of Kings. 4573 is nice, it a convertible from BRT. Then there is 1001, the 1st PCC, Brooklyn also. Have a fondness for the BRT EL cars also. But to me the quintessential car from Brooklyn is 8111. [I realized it'll never be resurected in my life time.] Even if it didn't serve the Crosstown Carhouse in it's service life. That to me is "THE" Brooklyn Car, along with the single ended 6000s, of which none was saved.
As for 659, she may be in rough shape, but not as rough as 8111.
Time has taken its toll on both. The flooding of December, 1992
did much to the collection. Even the location of the collection
as pastoral as the setting is, it's only 1/2 mile away from Long
Island Sound & salt water. We do what we can to preserve, the best
we can with our resources. We all would like to see more, but
we're lacking the $$$$$; manpower and a host of other things.
Most of all, we don't need those who come once a year, if that often
and why didn't you do this a/o that. We may have if you participated,
in lieu of vocalizing or whatever.
:-) Sparky
> we're lacking the $$$$$
You know what I would like to see, that might help this issue, is a list of actual projects and what money is needed to accomplish them. Like for instance, if I knew it would cost $500 worth of paint to paint a subway car at a museum to keep it from further rust, someone might decide to help that particular project with some cash. Or maybe have a connection to donate supplies. We all know there are cars & trolleys that need money to work on them. I bet an itemized list could help stir up some interest.
David,
As per your request, here's verbiage from the most recent appeal
mailed to the members of BERA. aka "Beg Sheet".
Connecticut Company car 1602 was displayed on members day, yellow
paint glistening in the sun. The past few years have brought this
car to near completion and the entry of 1602 into service will mark
the first time Branford has has a "side seater" streetcar for regular
use.
A visit to the carshop will find New Orleans Public Service 850 on the floor area where the quality of work that has been done is quite evident. The completly rebuilt end platform makes an interesting
contrast to the untouched end, while the painted side of the car
gives a preview of what 850 will look like upon completion. Unintentionally, one can see the tremendous amount of work that has gone into this project by simply looking at different portions of the car, with examples of the completed, the ongoing and the remaining to
be done.
New to the roster is Newark PCC 27, made operable over the winter by
the efforts of many. It has made several trips up and down the line,
and rode and handled well. Still mainly in the Cleveland RTA scheme,
several patches of gray show what the future will bring as 27 reverts
back to Public service Cooridinated Transport livery. All it takes is
a bit of metalwork, some paint, and some holes filled...
Filling in holes is something we can all do, and not just on car 27.
Car 1602, so close to completion, needs just $1700 to finish seatwork,
which will place it into service, while 850 is in need of approximately $2800 to join 1602 on line. Feel like helping to fill in a hole?
Please mail your contributions to:
Branford Electric Railway Association
17 River Street
East Haven, CT 06512-2519
Your contributions are tax deductable.
$_____ 1602, $ _____ 850, $ _____ 27, $ _____ General Fund.
Come see for your self, join us at the Trolley Pageant on Saturday
or Sunday June 22/23.
:-) Sparky
What I thought Dave was asking for was a list something like this:
Naugahyde for seats in 8111........................$150.00
Glass for windows in 8111..........................$300.00
Rebuilt moror for 6688.............................$1500.00
Etc. Etc....
Elias
Dave,
Serving on the board of Branford I get to see the other side
of this issue. We solicit funds only for a limited number of
projects that are actively being pursued. We'll accept restricted
donations to specific cars but unless it is a scheduled project,
there's no guarantee that work will ever take place. For example,
one member, now deceased, used to annually send in checks for $81.11
for BQT8111. The problem is, the realistic cost of doing anything
with that car is measured in tens of thousands.
We do recommend that people contribute either to the general fund,
or to the equipmnent fund. Both support all types of car work
and ongoing maintenance. When the folks working on 6688 need
wirewheels, or we need a new gearpuller to do some work on 27,
that gets funded from one of those sources.
The physical plant fund supports general building repairs,
track, line, signal and grounds improvements. Our other
active projects that are in need of funds are 850 and 1602.
Thanks for the insider info Jeff...
-Dave
Dave,
On behalf of the membership at B.E.R.A., thank you for giving us the
space on your web site to express our ongoing projects and financial
requests.
John "Sparky" Sikorski
Well.... I asked, didn't I? :-)
(and, it's on topic!)
And your a member too Dave, the most important thing, memebership is what keeps the place open.
All members are Guardians if you ask me (to keep on thread as well >G<)
Informed membership would keep the place "growing" not just "going".
It's on topic? Deo gratias!
Good idea, John. Why not send them BERA's barely readable Annual Report as well? Several other trolley museums produce and mail annual reports with pictures, narratives and progress reports. Why is Branford's in 4 point type?
Praise be, which ones? I belong to four Trolley Museums.
Branford, now has a monthly newsletter with progress reports,
that can be read on line monthly and full color photos by Members only.
And they do issue an annual statement.
Seashore, has a bi-monthly newsletter and progress reports.
They did issue printed annual reports till several years ago. Haven't seen any this century.
Rockhill, issue a quarterly printed newsletter and progress report.
For members, who have email access, progress reports are sent regularly and frequently.
Kingston [TMNY], member since 1977, the last time I received anything,
was a one page full color sheet, progress report of sorts and reminder,
my dues were overdue.
Poorest Museum to communicate with it's membership.
So you can see, I have four to compare. There are faults with all,
but do we life in a perfect world?
:-) Sparky
When you go "inside", check the rails to see that they are designed to provide left-right balance. BERA is long out of balance.
Has anyone been pursuing grants for car restoration? With all the TEA-21 money floating around in the past has Shoreline attempted to get a piece of it? One of the cars at Shoreline was restored with grant money. Another trolley museum has been pretty successful at recieving grants? Surely 8111 could be considered a very important piece of Brooklyn's history.
Steve L.
Look at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum to find out what is both available and used by trolley museums in terms of grants.
Ditto for Seashore, Jeff.
Our Members receive regular updates on projects in The Dispatch, our bi-monthly newsletter. But one of Seashore's largest needs right now is infrstructure, that not-too-sexy (or railfan-friendly) category, which includes restrooms, shop structure maintenance and expansion, parking lot improvements, etc. Contributing to the Annual Fund or the Endowment Fund helps greatly.
Of course, earmarked donations for restricted fund (specific cars, etc.) are always welcome, much needed, and well-appreciated! And if you can't afford the $$, your vonunteer labor is just as valued -- and rewarding.
Think big.
Maybe someone else from Branford can make up a more comprehensive list, but I'll add a short note of other active projects not previous mentioned in this thread:
- H&M Car 503: A couple of members have been working on the car for a number of years. Most of the exterior walls that were rusted/rotted on the bottom have been repaired. Also most of the floor has been taken up, rust stablized, then new floor poured (just a little patch is left after this years 3 week visit by the former TA employee who has retired up north). Windows are out & being repaired. She operates just fine thank you.
- R-17 6688: Work has begun agin in earnest to put on a finished coat of paint.
- Gate car 1227: She'll be 100 soon. Interest is building to spruce her up for a birthday party. Mechanically she works just fine.
- Box Cab switcher #12: One of our teenagers is putting time on it. She operates.
- Steeple Cab 5002: Another teenager is working on this. One of the trucks was removed & is being overhauled. The goal is to get her to operate on her own.
- Rotary Plow #5, the only surviving one in the World. A great deal of work has been done to stablize her. She operates & the blades have been made to function again.
- Connecticut Company collection: There is a crew that works on several of these cars, including 1602, most every Tuesday.
- AND I have not included a number of other cars being worked on. I find it very satisfing to see all the different stuff that gets attention to some extent every month (by reading our newsletter). It's a slow process where we could always use more helpers and funds.
As most of you know I'll work on subway/el stuff and track work.
- The other thing that I appreciate is that the museum doesn't beg for money every time they send you something in the mail, but then maybe they should. It's a thin line to walk, i.e. too much begging turns folks off, just the right amount brings in the needed cash. They begged twice for the Newark PCC #27. First when she arrived & second when the members got home after riding in her member's day. With 150 or so in attendance they struck while the memory was fresh ... and got a little cash out of me ... after all I got the privledge of operating her that day.
Mr rt__:^)
Branford got me early on working on 27, since she is the sister to the 12 cars BHRA acquired in Brooklyn. Special thanks to Jeff Hackner who allowed me to collect extra practical experience on all-electric PCC cars. You'll be seeing me up there again replacing metal and applying the grey/white/blue/red of its former livery very soon.
Oh, and we have to remove that trip arm sticking out of the right side of the front truck.
8111 sounds like a good challenge....an TEA-21 grant would do it, but I think it has to be in NY to apply, if I remember what Sparky told me. Any ideas?
Jan,
It wasn't I, that said 8111 had to be in New York. Besides I'm not
familiar with the TEA-21 Grant or any similar process. You probally
have more knowledge than me.
You trying to shanghai a Brooklyn car back to Brooklyn. I have a candidate for you for return to Brooklyn. BRT 4550, is now halfway back at the M&H Railway, Middletown, PA. When I visited there last October, it was outdoors untarped. IMO, there is enough of the physical structure left of the body to warrant a restoration of the cosmetics to static display. [Operation wise, the mechanics are gone, with many ten of thousands, maybe it would run.] But it is an intriguing piece to bring home, even if only for display purposes.
Branford has 4573; Seashore has 4547; can we get 4550 east of the Hudson again? BHRA or Court Street.
:-) Sparky
I've been trying to find out more about 4550 for a few years. It does need alot of work even to bring it up to display purposes. It was alot of fun to operate 4573 on Members Day.
I coulda sworn you and I talked about TEA-21 (successor to ISTEA) in regards to getting 8111 restored and operating. If it wasn't you, there a executive member who talked with me about it at length. It's possible I combined two memories of conversations.
TEA-21 is a federal program, but the allocation of the money
is made at the state and local level. Connecticut has been
a tough state for railway museums to get TEA-21 money, unfortunately.
I doubt that getting money to restore a Brooklyn car would fly.
Our TEA-21 efforts are concentrating on infrastructure, such as
putting up some real buildings above the flood level.
Incidentally, 4550 was passed over by Branford. Besides being
just a body, enough has been altered that it would be a major
task to make it a Brooklyn car again. It would make an
interesting "heritage car" for BHRA though...I like the idea.
Jan,
"I've been trying to find out more about 4550 for a few years. It does need alot of work even to bring it up to display purposes."
Quickly, from my visit in October 4550, does need work to bring it
to exibition status. Off the top of my head, there are four walkover
seats that have been removed. The bulkhead doors, may have to be
rebuilt. I'm not a wood worker, but the BRT handles were removed and just filled, then pull handles mounted above. There was a false
headliner, so don't know how the roof looks in or out. The end steps were missing from the platforms. Two or three of the gates were still intact. Not all controls were present on the platforms.
I have some video footage I shot, I edit onto another cassette, and pass it on to you. [I'll admit, I'm bad at keeping track of these
things, so be patient.]
Overall, in comparison to units, I've seen at Museums, IMO 4550 looks structurally decent. Also since, we are neigbors and the longer
days are upon us, maybe a day trip to the M&H after AM rush is
warranted. They do a tourist operation on weekends, but are a short line freight carrier with a business office at that location. You
may have some interested folk at BHRA for an assesment.
Jeff has also placed some insight into the administration of TEA-21
and why Branford passed 4550 as a body. I do not expect it to be
rebuilt as an operational piece, but a "heritage display", better
than sitting in a railyard in PA exposed to the elements.
Email privately, with your thoughts. trolley687@aol.com.
Also I do not have your email address.
:-) Sparky
Hey, the trip arm stays. All of the cars will be getting them anyways...
Secret plan 458-g
Please do not call them "guardians". While there are a few precious people who would like it to become a real museum capable of providing for future needs, most of them are people who want to restore one car and could care less about the museum or its finances and future. Branford has no endowment, no viable master plan, and no secure funding for restorations. No restorer has posted a bond to assure completion of a restoration in the event of his or her death or impairment. Have you scrutinized any of their financial statements in the last two decades? Please do so. See what Branford has to say about Branford.
Oh Ray, you're so stuck in 1980! The museum isn't where it
perhaps should be after 50+ years of existence. Neither is
Seashore, the 'Point, and most other railway museums. Nevermind
what happened 20 years ago. Look at the last 5 years. The
museum is full of positive-thinking people who are getting
things done. The financial statements show a good
operating surplus too. We have a modest endowment, a viable
master plan that is in the approval process with the town,
and the highest number of members in the museum's history.
I'd say we're doing reasonably well, and most members agree.
Sorry, yours truly may stuck in 1980, but the Museum is stuck in 1947! If it cannot achieve the most basic things in 55 years, it needs to be closed for a while and rethought. Five and half decades is a too long a time to get an organization's act together. It has no money because it has no credibility and minimal fiscal management. Ask the people, many of them long time ERA members, what happened to the monies they gave for many specific New York and Brooklyn equipment restoration funds. They're not rushing to include BERA in their wills!
No actually I haven't scrutinized their master plan or financial statements. I haven't looked at the master plan or financial statements of the Metropolitan Museum either but I'm a member/contributor there too. I don't think it's wrong to throw a little money at projects/places that interest you and that you enjoy visiting-- even if it may get placed in the "general fund" as opposed to restoring your pet favorite car. I don't fool myself by thinking my $50 a year to the Met has bought any new paintings. It probably barely covers the cost of the nice glossy magazine they send out each quarter. But by asking about an itemized list by vehichle I thought it might show up things like, Car X only needs $xxx to be totally restored because there's only that one thing holding it up, or Car Y needs $Y for a coat of paint immediately to head off rusting so it can be fully restored in the future. Stuff like that. I bet lots of cars could use a coat of paint but none of us have any idea how much that costs (not counting, of course, labor time). Also, do you think it's right that a volunteer restorer should post a bond for any purpose? Let the people with the time volunteer to restore without also giving them a financial burden.
Yes, they should post a bond. In no other type of museum can a person start a project without a schedule, disassemble something, store the parts where he or she wishes, and then, due to a change in employment or health, be unable to continue the project in a reasonable time. Sometimes the restorer just runs out of funds. There needs to be a restoration plan filedd, financial planning, and a guarantee to the museum that the project will either be finished by the restorer or that funds will be available through a bond to pay professionals to finish or stabilize the piece. They should also be required to document their work (which is what a real musuem is obligated to do), but that is another story. "Free" is often the highest price of all.
Look to the Strasburg Railroad (which is not a museum) and you will see major restorations costed within $300 and done on schedule. The techniques for doing this exist.
Yes, they should post a bond. In no other type of museum can a person start a project without a schedule, disassemble something, store the parts where he or she wishes, and then, due to a change in employment or health, be unable to continue the project in a reasonable time. Sometimes the restorer just runs out of funds. There needs to be a restoration plan filedd, financial planning, and a guarantee to the museum that the project will either be finished by the restorer or that funds will be available through a bond to pay professionals to finish or stabilize the piece. They should also be required to document their work (which is what a real musuem is obligated to do), but that is another story. "Free" is often the highest price of all.
Look to the Strasburg Railroad (which is not a museum) and you will see major restorations costed within $300 and done on schedule. The techniques for doing this exist.
Ray, the problem of unsupervised "restoration" belongs in the past.
Every railway museum has one or more examples of projects that
were started with good intentions and left uncompleted.
It is said that "you can't tell a volunteer what to do". True,
but we can and do tell them what they CAN'T do. No one is
permitted to just start ripping a car apart. A work plan has to
be presented. It may not be a formal 10 page document with pie
charts, but nothing gets started unless the curator knows what
is planned, who is going to be involved, and how it will be funded.
If anything, Branford's record over the past few years has been
to complete previously aborted or incorrect restorations. Witness
the completion of 2350 and 775, and now 850 and soon 948.
1602 was started 5 years ago and is now complete. I didn't see
that project go belly up in the middle. Quite the opposite: it's
a volunteer success story.
Ray, most of your perceptions of the museum are based on when you
were last active there, almost 20 years ago. Maybe Father Bob
can give you some positive thinking coaching, because things do change
I'm curious if TARS 629 fell into the "incorect restoration" category at one time. Back in 1980, it had a paint scheme which did not match the one in the photo in the museum's guidebook. It is now finished in that same scheme. Or could it be that TARS repainted their fleet in a different scheme at some point before streetcar service ended?
Steve,
629 is now painted in the TATS [Post WWII] scheme, as it would have
ended service in the Bronx with the trolley poles added. 631 at
Seashore, has the TARS [Pre WWII] scheme, the car would have in
Manhattan service less the trolley poles. As for 678 at NatCap,
been over 15 years, since I saw it in a Bicentennial paint scheme and
pantograph ala Vienna.
Also an addition to Jeff's listing of incompleted restorations,
Car 220, which has been done since I arrived in 1985.
BTW, it was completed for its centennial in 1992.
10-4. Thanks.
The guidebooks I have feature a photo taken in Manhattan on 59th St., IIRC.
Interesting! It is BERA, which portrays itself to railfans as a positive institution, that needs a reality check. My thinking, as always, is both "now" and "twenty years from now" based. Stop trying to dance around it. No one at BERA can mention one building on its property designed (let alone in existence) to preserve restored electric railway equipment so as not to be affected by a salt water, marsh mat environment, let alone be protected from the great variations of humidity and temperature to which formerly priceless equipment is continually subjected. Forget the 1980's - they'll never come around again. It's time for a current reality check. Hey, BERA is 57 years old as an institution, 55 years old as a "museum". Isn't it time for it to act its age?
I think if Oscar the Grouch is not going to open his eyes then he ought to duck back in his garbich can because he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Progress is being made ... maybe not as much as COULD be made, but more then many other similar museums. Attendence is on a downward trend because there are less & less folks who want to go for a trolley ride. So the place needs to offer them more ... that's being worked on. I have a copy of the extravent plan crafted when the place became a National Historic Site. Your sights were realy high then, they are lower now with small steps being taken, e.g. an upgraded signal system has been talked to death ... new signals have already gone in, more are being prepared ... that progress ... that's just one example of something concrete that's been done.
Maybe your reading of the monthly news letter would help. But then if you're not even a member anymore, what gives you the right to throw rocks ?
Mr rt__:^)
Amen! If it weren't for my own bucks, time and travel situation, you'd find me under a car too (hopefully NOT in motion at the time with proper blue flags and all) at Branford. When the day comes and I can get out of this place, it'll be to go to Branford. My largest regret is being unable to do so at this time. From what little I've seen and read, I for one am *most* impressed with what all of you are doing. The past is the past. The current "history" looks quite good and THAT is what matters.
That right is long established. Read your BERA history.
Constructive suggestions is one thing, just throwing rocks & running away is another.
Or starting fires and running away.
So, Ray, you must be involved in some tremendously successful, meticulously organized, "Smithsonian of Transit."
Where is it? Can I come see all of the immaculately restored cars you have rescued from demise and keep stored in humidity controlled carbarns between runs down the lengthy main line?
Sign Me Up!
Good. The first thing you might do is read up on the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum, of which yours truly is a member. They are much younger than Branford but do more in a year than BERA does in five years. Ask for a complimentary copy of their newsletter and broaden your horizons about trolley museums. Yours truly plans to spend a good part of Independence Day week out there. That's a "museum", not just a collection of traction stuff. Just compare their work, their reporting, and their funding to BERA's. Ask for a copy of their Annual Report, then see if you can read what BERA puts in four point type every now and then. It will demonstrate what can be done when people stop coveting their own projects and act as responsible, organized, disciplined electric railway preservationists. Oh yes, they'll be glad to show you around their fine place. It's well worth the trip.
And I'll bet most of them don't run around putting others down from ringside, either. (most of them seem to be too busy putting together a nice trolley museum). We as Subtalkers, get around to various museums and see which ones are doing things the right way and which ones are not Observation and experience will seperate the wheat from the chaff. I plan to visit both of those museums this summer to see for myself but if all I hear at PTM is negativity from the staff about other museums, then all the fancy interpreters and educators will have wasted their time because I'm out the door headed to Branford where they seem to enjoy themselves. As for Branford, maybe they need a little constructive criticism but public sniping at a bunch of sincere folks who are really trying to get something accomplished is not good for trolley perservation. Working together will pay off.
John, Thanks for that.
We do enjoy what we are doing and try very hard not to get to bothered by others different views and likes/dislikes, because in the end we all want to preserve the many forms of traction/rapid transit history.
Not too long ago I saw two guys who are always disagreeing on everything working togather to cover a car in the yard. It made me feel real good.
Mr rt__:^)
Are they also covering for future generations?
To be fair to Arden, their staff is not the sort to be negative
about other museums. Quite to the contrary, we have a strong
working relationship with them and have partnered in several deals.
Good. Now learn about the philosophy that drives their decisions.
Really!Couldn't agree more.
"No restorer has posted a bond to assure completion of a restoration in the event of his or her death or impairment."
While this is undoubtedly true about Branford, it is also true of every other railway museum that has ever relied on volunteer labor. Expecting the people who do the work to be the financial supporters for a project ensures that no one will perform either task. I would venture to say that most of the people who do the work at volunteer museums don't have a whole lot of money, and most of the people who donate large sums of money don't have the time or inclination to do a lot of restoration work. Is there a problem with people dying or leaving a project that's half done? Yes. But the solution doesn't lie with expecting them to "insure" the car against this, because they simply won't and you'll also end up torpedoing the projects that stand to be eventually completed. The solution is in 1) concentrating on a few projects and ensuring that they are worked on consistently, and - more importantly I think - 2) making sure you don't have one-man restoration teams. Teams of 3 or 4 ensure that the loss of one member won't end a car's chances of being completed.
Frank Hicks
Well reasoned. However, every attempt to have only a few common projects at BERA has failed, as its long history shows.
Ray, as a number of people have said, that may have been true when you last were active, nearly 20 years ago (I don't know, I wasn't a member then), but from what I have observed during the past three years that is not true now. I have watched the crews working on 1602, 850, 27, 6688, and 2350 and they're not one-person restorations - not by a long shot. 6688 in particular has had a huge number of people working on it, many of whom are up there a couple of times a month, as their schedules and finances permit. 850 has a dedicated core group, each of whom have spent - individually - more hours so far this year than I will have spent by the end of the year on operations and another (non-restoration) project that I'm involved with. I'm also a member of one other smaller transit museum, and with all due respects to that museum and its volunteers, Branford is doing a much better job of completing what it starts.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are there any Triplexes, R1's or Standards at Branford?
We have an R-9 (1689), a Hi-V, and a Lo-V (5466), but no Triplex, R-1, or (AFAIK) Standards. I'm no expert on the RT stuff though, the trolleys are more my field.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is one BMT standard at Branford, 2775, which is not operational.
As for the Triplexes, all that's left are the three surviving units still on TA property. One section of one unit whose number escapes me at the moment is on someone's farm in upstate New York.
Steve,
I have seen the single section of the "D" type you mentioned. But that was twenty years past.
At that time it was on Route 28 west of Kingston. But that's gone now.
You have any further info as to its current location? Anyone?
Cute story I can relate with that section. Was on an TMNY bus trip to
visit new site in Kingston and U&D.
After museum, enroute to Arkville, we stopped to pay homage
and one of the "riders" took home a seat bottom.
:-) Sparky
>>I have seen the single section of the "D" type you mentioned. But that was twenty years past.
At that time it was on Route 28 west of Kingston. But that's gone now.
You have any further info as to its current location? Anyone?<<
JohnS
I did some detective work on this some five years ago. The property where the the "B" section of the D-Type stood was sold for development. There is a furniture store on that property, that's why I couldn't find it when driving past.
After talking to some locals, I found out that it was acquired and shipped further upstate, south of Albany. (Selkirk country) I never saw it, but spoke to a property owner who owns the abandoned campgrounds where the D Type was placed. I was told that the center unit was brought there to be converted into a lavatory for the campgrounds. I wanted to see and photograph it, but it was hunting season and I was told it wouldn't be advisable to venture up there. That's the last I heard of it, don't know if it was drastically altered or not.
Bill "Newkirk"
If you can find out where it is, maybe I can go check it out. I haven't heard any word of it but that don't mean much. :)
>>If you can find out where it is, maybe I can go check it out. I haven't heard any word of it but that don't mean much<<
I have forgotten exactly where it is located. I remember that it was somewhere near the Rip Van Winkle Bridge. I remember some houses near the campgrounds and a four lane state highway running west-east. I do have the phone number of the property owner if you'd like, but I'll do that via e-mail. If you do go there, wear fluorescent orange to be safe !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Way downstate in Catskill, eh? Heh. I won't need to whip on a TA vest, ain't hunting season. I'll have to bring my shootin' iron though just to look local down yonder. :)
Kevin & Bill,
Thanks for the current input & "punts" regarding that piece of Transit
Memorabilia.
:-) Sparky
Fred, Branford also has H&M car #503 as well as SIRT #388 and a number of wooden elevated cars form various divisions.
- Branford total collection about 100
- Warehouse Point is about 70, only a few from NYC
- Seashore is about 250
- Kingston is about 30
We have had the views of both sides of this issue. IMO, for members
of BERA and non members, visit us for the "Trolley Pageant" June 22/23
and make your own judgement. Several SubTalkers & activist at Branford
will be there, so if you can join us.
:-) Sparky
Good observation. 6688 was brought to Branford with private money. Should those with funds determine what a museum should have? How does that car affect the Museum's demand electric bill? Is this a "rich man's club?" As to the other cars, each will be addressed individually when the time is available. The NOPS 850 story alone is worthy of a salty novel. Little at BERA is what it would seem to be, and you are advised to check the story first hand and personally before making any donation.
But the bottom line is NOPS850, even with it's salty past, will be
completed and added to the operating fleet in due course. As I have
stated on other treads, come and see us for Trolley Pageant June 22/23
and decide for yourself. More so see the progress on NOPS850 in the
shop NOW in 2002, not 1982.
:-) Sparky
850 is one of those rare "funded" projects. They could hvae finished it a year ago, but instead decided to repair the ends instead of just covering them up & making them look nice (extensive rot/rust was found that had gotten in thru the front windows). When completed the car won't have to be touched for a very long time because they are taking the time to do it right.
Mr rt__:^)
With our curator Ted E, that is the high level of achievement being
instilled into the ongoing projects.
WE are doing it right and complete the first time. We are doing quality, not quantity. A visit will show the high level of attainment in recent restoration as 220, 2350, and the jewel of the operating fleet JTC357. When completed NOPS850 will sparkle as a Southern Belle along with GPC948.
:-) Sparky
Great! Is #220, a very rare gem, in a climate-controlled building? It only took about 35 years to restore under the guidance of Dick Fletcher.
Is #220, a very rare gem, in a climate-controlled building?
Ray, you know perfectly well that it's not (how many trolley cars anywhere in this country are?), but I'm sure the Museum would be happy to accept your generous donation of such a facility.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you. Are you volunteering to serve on BERA's endowment committee? This person is BERA's largest fund raiser to date. Now it is your turn.
Are you volunteering to serve on BERA's endowment committee?
No, I'm not, because I have neither a significant amount of funds available at my disposal to contribute towards such an endowment nor the political inclinations necessary to be a successful fundraiser (a point which was driven home quite forcefully when I did make a run for political office in 1994). What I do have is an extensive professional background as an historian, editor, small businessman, and project manager, and I have volunteered my services to Branford in areas that will take good advantage of the expertise I have accumulated over the years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My last BERA fund raiser was $10,000 raised in 17 days for the historic site dedication of 1984. There was a committee of five of us involved and the yellow-covered booklet produced is still a "keeper". Since then, yours truly has raised over $450,000 for other not-for-profit organizations. The largest single out-of-his-own-pocket contributer was, to my knowledge, E.R.A. founder E. Jay Quinby, who rescued the place from pending bankruptcy in the early 1950's. This was during the time that the second track was torn up and three cars were scrapped. Jay stopped all of that. You might read "The Single Most Critical Skill", my article in issue #10 (Sept.-Oct. 1987) of Locomotive & Railway Preservation Magazine. Over 40 railway museums received permission to republish it in their own newsletters and it is still as valid some fifteen years later.
By the way, the committee recommended that most of the $10,000 be invested in one of those new-fangled word processers to continue fund raising. They ignored the idea. BERA has yet to get serious about being a museum.
NOPS 850 was moving along well through a major restoration for about six years when the member who was doing it (he still lives in the Branford area and loves traction), gave up as a result of organization politics. He had achieved about a 45% restoration with very high quality work. 850 did not do well after the member quit. Bonds for restorers, anyone?
My view is that the scope of what the museum has to offer needs to be expanded. PCCs, Elevated & subway cars do that. A display hall with artifacts, videos, etc. does it too. A tour vs. a ride helps also.
So how much do you spend on advertizing, power useage & things for folks to see to increase attendance ? Zero & just a trolley ride won't do it anymore !
Mr rt__:^)
This way of thinking is why I have not and probably won't re-new my dues. In my opinion, if it was not built with a trolley pole it does not belong at Branford. I know this is "sub-talk" but that is what the transit museum is for. So let me get this straight we...no you concentrate your efforts on rapid transit while letting the traction side take second stage? I dont know if any other members would say this butthere are those out there who feel rapid transit doesn'
t belong there. If this were truly to happen(which I dont think it would) I for one would NEVER set foot on the property again!!! Besides look at what Pennsylvania Trolley Museum has done...Grants for car restoration...a master plan that is heading into its second phase after track extension.....all without subway rides...Funny thing is one of there senior memebers used to belong and was active at Branford.
Steve Loitsch
In my opinion, if it was not built with a trolley pole it does not belong at Branford.
Use of a third rail would be too dangerous. I'd rather see these items preserved even if it's not a "pure" environment. The only places I can ride an R-4, R-7 or R-9 are at Branford or Seashore. The NYTM doesn't have any R1-9s - they're privately owned and while some are cosmetically restored, none of them run. Also, the NYTM's museum membership is diferent from that of Branford or Seashore in that the members can't restore or operate the cars that are at the NYTM - only qualified motormen can operate, and only NYC Transit personnel can work on the equipment (who keeps the D-Types in operating order - besides Mike Hanna's group, or is it only his group, in which case I am wrong). At Branford or Seashore, anyone can qualify to operate once you get trained throught their training programs.
These museums have charters that their curators and staff attempt to follow, and as long as thse "unpure" itemsfit that charter, I see no reason why they can't be included in their collections. I'm just happy that these cars do exist in collections, no mater where they may be.
--Mark
IIRC, the use of third rail power is BANNED BY CONNECTICUT state law since the 1910's. Therefore to make rapid transit cars, and PCC"S run trolley poles must be attached. Witness Amtrak and Metro North that have Pantographs on their roofs.
I as a semi-active member appreciate the fact that you do not have to be overly cautious when walking near the rails...I'm sure that keeps the liability insurance premiums low for covering visitors and volunteers.
Wow ... dunno how I missed this one ... forgive me for a small piece of perspective here - I'm 51 years old myself - when I was in diapers, the last of the trolleys vanished from the streets of the Bronx. I am at least grateful to have ridden the PCC's in Newark a good number of times and thus have SOME appreciation for the wonders of "traction" before GM completely overtook reality.
In all sincerity, I can feel the years pressing against my own soul and at my age, trolleys are meaningless to just about everybody my own age. I'm going to assume that you've got some years on me and PLEASE, no disrespect is intended here in ANY form ... my point though is that for the legacy of the trolley to live past *US*, some modifications to the "purity of essence" will be necessary or today's "trolley museums" will end up going the way of "horse and buggy" museums of years past.
The rapid transit cars being acquired by SOME forward-looking facilities will ENSURE that the legacy of trolleys will continue forward as PREDECESSORS of today's "subways" ... while I agree with you on a "purist" convention, I feel it is necessary to have an attraction for these museums that remains relevant to a whole new generation of patrons ... and sadly (from our perspective since I've actually RIDDEN trolleys in my own lifetime) the rapid transit cars will continue to ensure that people will have something *THEY* can relate to in order to cause them to sustain membership and come out to the museums in the future.
This in turn will finance the preservation of the heritage WE hold dear, those trolleys that nobody in the prime demographics has a clue of as to their significance in our own times ... like it or not, those subway cars will help to preserve the trolleys as WE die off. Therefore I consider it if not a necessary evil, at least an attractive nuisance ... and if nothing else, an INSURANCE that trolleys will be attractive to a whole new group of members who had no idea they even existed ...
(soapbox dismounted, dingding)
Saturday there were several charter groups at Shoreline.....Thurston can tell you that he opened up the doors of R-9 1689 to allow some folks to look inside from ground level....Many of those visitors have never been to NYC or Boston and had ever seen (except in photos) a subway, let alone look inside one.
I am 52 and vaguely remember once riding the trolley over the QB bridge. Most of my memories are on NYC Rapid Transit cars. Perhaps if I was in the area I would have visited Shoreline, but driving the R-17 hooked me as a member.
People relate best to things they remember, not what they've read about as history. As the younger generations mature and less people know or care about trolleys the museums have to change with the times.
Also bear in mind Shoreline's proximity to NYC and its suburbs as part of its marketing area for visitors and members/volunteers.
You betcha ... and sadly, 1689's time will also be gone soon once few remember what an R9 was. Redbirds are the next big THANG ... whoops, you guys already have one. Sorta. And someday not too far from now, there'll need to be a 32 or a 46 or a 68. The wheel turns and life goes on. Branford is ready for it, more so than many. :)
>>>"People relate best to things they remember, not what they've read about as history. As the younger generations mature and less people know or care about trolleys"<<<
Then why are the "rubber tired" look-a-likes so popular if "less people know or care about trolleys"? So ours are authentic and operate the way they were built to operate on steel rails on steel rails, electrically powered.
Or will the future be just cloning of what once was? >G<
:-) Sparky
Actually Selkirk I am only 31 years old. While I agree with you to a point, something does need to change at museums to enable a lrger visitor draw, but not in the sense of direction of the museum shifting to rapid transit. No offense was taken.
Steve Loitsch
Glad to hear it ... so many out there fail to realize that steel wheelers and steel railers with electric motors have so very much in common. Museums in general are hurting everywhere - the big thing these days are "hands-on" to draw them in. Sadly, museums need to pick up a bit of that PT Barnum thing ... the more things there are to touch and play with, the better the chances down the road. Gack, "seven flags electric trains" ... heh.
One of the best devices for that purpose right now is the Birthday Charters ! Just think of all the area kids who didn't have a clue what a trolley was before they had a rolling party in one !
P.S. When asked they all do know what a subway car is.
Mr rt__:^)
Wow I didnt intend to stir up such a hornets nest!!!! I dont want to come across like I am discounting the hard work done by any memebers. I was just using the board here to vent some fustration with the way things seemed to be going at BERA. I guess it has something to with what I remember up there while my father was Supt of Equipment and taking me up there with him when he could. Yes the R-9 came during that timeframe but it seemed like more was being done to the cars(ie "Broom jobs" to get the cars presentable). Maybe I was too young to see what was really going on back then. All I cared about was going up, and helping in the shop. Maybe now the broom jobs are not done and that is ok. I dont "hate" the rapid transit eqpt up there or the people who support it. Back in the 70's Dad was quietly diverting some $$ to the member who was restoring 1227's roof, I know he caught some heat about it as well. Personnaly, one of my biggest thrills was "wrapping up" 3662 under Jeff's guidance. I also remember pageants where there were so many people we couldn't drive down Warfield Rd. What I was trying to say through my fustration is something should be changed to bring people back. I guess I will just swallow my opinions and support the museum, things will cahnge one way or another. Jeff, my dues will go out sometime after the 15th.
Steve Loitsch
Steve, I'm glad we cleared that up. Every place has its ups
and downs, and change. The late 80s and early 90s were definitely
down for Branford. But, if it's not abundantly clear from the
newsletter, the numbers are on the upswing the past few years.
Both the number of people who are volunteering and the hours they
contribute are steadily increasing. Visitor revenue is increasing.
Expenses are steady, and we've run a surplus for the past 3
fiscal years. We also have the highest number of members in
the history of the museum.
I wasn't around in the 70s so it's hard for me to compare
the work then to the work now. From talking with others, I
think that while there are fewer car projects, they are deeper
and more professional. Many of the restorations of the 60s and
70s were really just "broom jobs".....scrape, patch and paint.
The work we do now addresses the root of the problem: structural
issues, water ingress, etc. Look at the quality of the 357
restoration. 850 is another example. Both Bruce P., who started
working on that car years ago, and Scott B., the director of
PTM, were impressed with the quality and scope of work.
As for the future, despite what Ray says (and being "up the road",
he's not really in a position to know) we do have a definite
vision and master plan for the site. We've avoided making any
announcements as we are in the approval process with the town,
thus, like a court case that is in progress, it is prudent to
have "no comment" until things are certain.
Jeff,
I guess time will tell. On another note, I cant speak for all the restorations that took place in the 70's but I know 356 was not done to the same standards as 357. The main reason for this was the museum didnt have a reliable closed service car at the time that did not have a leaking roof. They needed to get 356 done as soon as they could, to take 2350 out of revenue service. According to Dad they only expected to get 10 years or so out of 356. Needless to say it lasted a bit longer, If I remember right I went into service after truck work in 1977 or 78. Hopefully at some point I will be able to head north and become more involved again.
Steve
So, where's the Subway Heritage Museum?
Court street, but it's closed for painting. :)
>>>"Besides look at what Pennsylvania Trolley Museum has done...Grants for car restoration...a master plan that is heading into its second phase after track extension.....all without subway rides..."<<<
Steve, IMO, and I'm not into Branford Politics. But the TEA-21 grants
are admininstered by the individual state. The Pennsylvania Trolley
Museum is a collection of in state cars. The focus of their collection is PA wide gauge.
Repeat wide gauge. So the core of the collection is Pittsburgh & Philadelphia. Grants for car restoration etc. in State, from a rail friendly state, to a collection which preserves that states heritage. NOPS832, is outside the scope of the collection, except for gauge. Another car in their collection is JTC350, which is hidden in the far right corner of the exibit carhouse, and has a few feet of dual gauge track, that on occasion it will see the light of day. If it weren't Johnstown, it would not be there. Also, besides two lines in Philadelphia, what
subways, did you have in Pennsylvania? Besides the collection now has
a Market~Franford "Subway" car. It's standard gauge, what if the
shoe were on the other foot, it were PA wide gauge, would a trolley
pole be inevitable? One can always wonder, what if they next get a
Broad Street Car?
What happened at Branford, way before you were born and I was a youngster was the intermix of two groups with a goal in mind of preserving self propelled pieces from two unique enviroments.
The locals, who preserved the CONNCO & other southern New England pieces and the New Yorkers, with their collection from the Metro Area. So they put together what is today the nucleus of a unique agglomeration, known as the Shore Line Trolley Museum. Would Branford have survived till the 21th Century without the influx of New Yorkers? It's a quibble that will continue way beyond our lifetime, as long as the museum is viable. Remember, us New Yawkers are guests in a Connecticut enviroment, even if we are the major in-house contributors. Many members fail to realize this.
>>>"Funny thing is one of there senior members used to belong and was active at Branford."<<<
and before going West he went North to the Point. Steve, this is not the place to discuss internal/policies or politics.
>>>"This way of thinking is why I have not and probably won't re-new my dues."<<< well, that's your decision, as inmature as it sounds.
I am a member of TMNY, and their policies, leave much to be desired, but if everyone, who has a pet peave with an organization doesn't renew, there would be no organizations left.
I gotta get outta here, it's becoming a dissertation.
John "Sparky" Sikorski
Steve, I'll chime in for just a brief moment... as an operator and tour guide at Branford, what I like about the collection is the ability to tell the story of urban mass transit in North America, with a focus on electric-powered vehicles. When I give a tour, I start with a brief mention of the omnibus, then the horsecar, the cable car, the early open and closed cars, through the Birney and the PCC, with a mention of the subway along the way, as well as the trolley bus. And I've already talked about country trolley lines and the big interurbans when I'm down at Short Beach. The subway cars are part of the story. They're not the focus, and they never will be on my tours, but without them the story is incomplete. After all, they have been around for a hundred years or so - they can't just be ignored.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It obvioulsy doesn't belong there. There's nothing like an R9 (a car I very much like) running through marsh mat and tidal inlets. Now, there's a context for it! The heavy subway cars have no place at BERA, but that's another story. Let the "subway guys" build a subway museum instead of mooching of the infrastructure of a venerable suburban trolley line. Glad you spoke up.
Steve,
I'm not really sure what Thurston is trying to say. He's an
active member, but he makes a point of noting that he is
not "management". To the extent that I'm on the board, I guess
my statements have some semi-official significance.
I can tell you with certainty that there is no plan to shift
the focus of the museum from street railways to rapid transit.
Our mission statement, "...to share the story of the trolley and
related forms of public transportation", reinforces that the trolley
story is the central one.
But we are also finding, and perhaps this is what Thurston was
aiming for, that in order to continue to attract a diverse
audience, both visitors and future members and volunteers, we
need to "paint with a broader brush". Our long-term planning
goal is to re-create the entire historical context of the
period (or, dare I say, "THE ENVIRONMENT OF THE TRACTION ERA"),
not just the ride. Long-term, that means a functioning early
20th century "main street".
The rapid transit cars (including el cars that did have
poles as built) represent perhaps 10% of the collection. They
run very few miles per year. Although there are ongoing
projects with them, all of the mainstream shop projects are
trolley-focused. Take a good hard look at total person-hours
per project as documented on the members web site. Work on
transit cars represented about 5% of total activity in 2001.
The three car projects with the most hours were 850, 1602 and 27.
So, I don't think there is any "danger" of
Branford becoming an arm of the Transit Museum. However, many
of our active members are initially attracted by something other
than passenger trolleys, be it work equipment, subway cars, or
even a bus. When we keep a balanced, rational view, everyone
enjoys themselves and in the end the "trolley guys" win out
since the "subway guys" spend a good deal of their time operating
for the public or doing track or b&g work that benefits everyone.
As for Arden, they are now several years ahead of us. They are fortunate to be in a state that has a strong tradition of
supporting railway history. Another reason for their success is
their virtual ban on negative thinking.
"... in order to continue to attract a diverse audience, both visitors and future members and volunteers, we need to "paint with a broader brush"..."
Jeff you have summed up my thinking very well. I know the place is primarily a trolley museum. That's why I was happy to do my small part to help it continue that way, e.g. 123 hours going ding ding last year. The "trolley guys" still know what I/we like, but I think they understand that I/we want the place to continue just as much as they do. One of the regular cars is in Con Co bright yellow. For most of our visitors now it's a educational vs. reminiscence experience.
Jeff is also correct that I'm not part of the "Board" or any other kind of official there. I'm just someone who gets a lots of personal satification getting dirty there.
Mr rt__:^)
I'm a "Subway Guy", I found the museum because of the RT cars. But as any member can see by my hours I'm in the 10 ten of the most operating hours which are trolleys.
I found out what a trolley is, had no clue what a street car or a PCC was (Peter Witt? is that some kind of couch?) and that was because there was subway cars at BERA.
You'll find my hours other then ops on RT cars and a little track work or C&S when a painting is needed to be done by flashlight.
Amen! Starting about 1976 or so every visitor got a guided tour from the car operator. Operators and conductors led tours as a regular part of operating. I assume that this is much the same these days. The trolley ride is not enough, particularly at the slow running speeds we hear about. The opens were the most popular cars and that's what brought many people back every year.
Ray it's part of the training for all new TROLLEY operators. Pardon me if I add a few comments about the relavance of elevated & subway cars while I'm telling the history of the trolley < G >
We also speak about quarrying in the area as well as the history of the trolley line, the NH, and steamers that brought vacationers to resorts in the area now long gone.
Mr rt__:^)
You've got the idea and probably articulate it well. All of it fits into a grand and expansive era in American history. The trolley car was a very positive urbanizing force, and was also most significant during the important Annexationist Movement of 1895-1907. What a change they made! My assumption is that this continues to be made clear on EVERY ridership tour at BERA, where every visitor is given a comprehensive tour as part of paying for an admission ticket.
My assumption is that this continues to be made clear on EVERY ridership tour at BERA, where every visitor is given a comprehensive tour as part of paying for an admission ticket.
I think that's a reasonable assumption; certainly it's part of mine and of all the others I've seen. All of us do it a little differently but the message is communicated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
6688 makes money without even moving. Several movie shots on her brings $$ in. Some of the shoots require the car to be moved while shooting, most are static movie shoots.
Go to http://www.ifilm.com/ and look up " The Night Ferris Bueller Died" and see 6688 in bloody glory!
What the @#$&?
In her bloody glory?
You are damn right about that! I'm about to have a cow here. The car looks so good....
It's one RT Car can make money for us. So for our cynics who are criticizing from behind a computer screen, Branford is doing quite fine, THANK YOU.
-Stef
Specifically, makes money for whom? BERA? Do tell!
Little at BERA is what it would seem to be, and you are advised to check the story first hand and personally before making any donation.
I'm not sure where all this negativity is coming from. A bit over a year ago, I corresponded with Jeff H (who I knew of from email, but had never met) about old H&M signal drawings and a method of imaging some of Branford's documents onto digital storage for archival purposes. We agreed to meet there on a weekend when he'd be working up there anyway (this was before opening day for the season).
Despite my being about an hour late due to some sort of protest on the NJ Turnpike, he spent several hours showing me around the facility, as well as up, into, and through most of the "in-storage" collection. He offered to let me operate out on the line, and we rode to the end of the line and back, as well as walking around the grounds. I made some comments (which in retrospect were probably unfairly disparaging) about the lowness of the ground and the dampness in the barns, and Jeff explained that they were mostly captives of their location, but pointed out where work had been done to improve the situation, and where additional work would be done.
He also toured me through the shops and introduced me to the various folks who were working there, and we took a quick trip into the pit to observe motors being pulled and rebuilt on a car, as well as their machine shop. I was quite impressed with the quality of the work being done. We also looked at the static displays, where I was given an overview of why each piece wasn't operable for carrying visitors.
By this time it was getting dark, so we moved to the welcome center to unroll and view the drawings that I'd brought and discuss various ideas for archiving these oversize documents. The folks who'd accompanied us on various parts of the tour had drifted back to their projects, or to return the equipment we'd used to storage, since it was starting to drizzle.
As I was packing up, I mentioned that it was probably time for me to make a contribution. I wrote a check and handed it to Jeff, who looked more than a bit surprised. He did mention that perhaps he should prep the treasurer for receiving it so he didn't have a heart attack or something 8-)
So, I agree - go visit the site and decide if it's worth your time and/or money (whichever you can spare). I certainly felt it was, and I got this whole treatment long before I gave any indication I was going to hand over a large contribution. Jeff can certainly add to this, but I'm pretty darn sure he was surprised...
A number of folks who have taken "official" positions at the place, like Mr Crapo, come away with a very bad taste in their mouth.
Being on the "Board" is a fustrating hard work. For just plain workers like myself it's fun & very rewarding. I hope he's happier where he is now & wish he would stop throwing rocks, because he realy does know better !
Mr rt__:^)
Tell Ray Crapo about being on the Board. Then experiences can be shared, item by item, meeting by meeting. Ready?
Yes, I was surprised! Thanks for your support, Terry.
Glad he was surprised. So are a lot of other people! Your donation should encourage BERA's efforts. BERA can certainly use every new contribution. You most likely examined their most recent Annual Reports. Did you receive any assurance that you generosity would achieve specific results at or by a given time?
At the time I wrote the check, I hadn't seen the reports. But I had a good feeling about what was going on there, based on my visit and conversations, and they'd told me about some of their recent major expenditures, so I had a pretty strong indication that they were actually doing things with the money and not running off to Tahiti with it. I was given the option of designating some or all of the money for specific projects, or allocating it to one or more funds. I decided to split it between two of the funds.
Since then I'm told it has been applied to both finishing 1602 and engineering work for a forthcoming project (which I'll let Branford announce, rather than spoiling the surprise here).
I've been very pleased with the quantity, quality, and timeliness of the communications I receive from there. I've been associated with a number of non-profits, some a lot bigger than Branford, which don't even manage to get a newsletter out once a year.
And yes, I've read the annual report from start to end.
Frank, I think the "Connecticut Barn" is a good example of this. You have a group of men who gather every Tuesday to work on several connecticut trolley cars. How many in that state can remember riding those cars ? Not very many. Our curator keeps an eye on what they are doing and since it's a group if one has to leave for some reason the others can pick up the torch. They are also happy to break in a new apprentice. In addition we have a couple of teens who have put in a great deal of time the past few years. Here again the curator indulges them & everyone else can see the results of their efforts. Will they stay at it, who knows but they both have leared valuable skills and something about taking pride in a little hard work.
Mr rt__:^)
Do they still play that Connecticut Company Trolley video in the Sprague Building? The one I've seen is narrated by longtime WTIC radio personality Bob Steele. Much of it is in color, which is unique considering all trolley service ended in 1948.
Steve,
I have been active in operations at Branford since 1985, and have not
seen that video, you speak of. There is a slide presentation, followed by a video,
which is changed regularly, by Fred S. director of exibits, in the Sprague building theatre.
:-) Sparky
Steve, I grew up listening to Bob Steele's unfunny jokes on that station.
BTW, heard him selling something the other day ... think he's in his 80's.
Mr rt__:^)
I listened to the Bob Steele show during my final two years at UConn. He was an institution at WTIC to say the least. If he's still alive, he would be 90 at least. I remember him saying he was born in 1911, went to high school six years, and began working at WTIC in 1936. Talked about streetcars in Hartford, too. Also talked about his Uncle Stainless (Stainless Steele, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk). His son, Phil, did the sports segments on weekends; I remember hearing him more recently during my Homecoming visits. A unique dialogue would ensue in those days:
Bob S.: Time for sports, and here's Phil Steele. Good morning, Phil.
Phil S.: Good morning, Dad, good morning everyone.
And yes, sometines his jokes left a lot to be desired. Not too many of them deserved rim shots.
Thurston,
Plaudits are to be extended to the CONNCO crew for their work, but
for definiteness, most work on Monday & Tuesday in Carhouse #7,
Grand Avenue. They're joined on Tuesday's by a New Yawker.
:-) Sparky
Yes, Frank is a New Yorker & knows lots about rapid transit, but he loves to work on Connecticut trolleys ... good for him !
Mr. rt,
My main concern was, your underscoring the work being performed on
Monday as well as Tuesday by the ConnCo Crew. Frank P. is a streetcar person, first and one of the motivaters whom brought the "Grand Dame" of all PCCs #1001 to Branford.
Also I was indicating that not all New Yawkers work on RT projects. Other posts on this subject have covered same. No redundancy. >G<
:-) Sparky
Sparky, Thank you for the explanation.
I think that all volunteer trolley and railroad museums are facing the same problem. There always is more to do than there are volunteers to do it, and funds to pay for supplies. The willing workers do the best they can, and what they can't do has to wait.
Another great place to watch trains was Metropolitan Ave. on the Myrtle Ave. EL. Back in the mid-Sixties when I was finished with high school for the day, I would go to Metropolitan Ave. and watch the Drillmen make three car "Q" trains into six car trains for the rush hour.
They did that in the 1940's & 1950's for the gate cars too. They used to make five car trains then for rush hour. I guess that was an option that they didn't have with the "Q's" since they were in three car sets.
Quite frankly, riding the BUs in the mid fifties, prior to the Qs, they were three or six car trains. I do not remember any five car
trains.
:-) Sparky
You are probably right! Before the Last Lex, rush hour trains were Lex 5 cars, Myrt 5 cars, and Fulton-Lex 6 cars. With the elimination of the Lex and Fulton-Lex there was just the Myrt left out of Bridge-Jay. I always wondered how the Myrt handled the additional traffic.
I was going to school and trying to hold down three jobs, so that all of my railfanning on the Myrt was during off peak hours. I was thinking that the Broadway Myrtle Junction had to have become much busier after Oct 13th 1950. I never had the opportunity to check it out until seven years later when I was riding the 15. By then the IND had tied in with the remains of the Fulton St el and a lot of prople were using a different train to get home. I do know that when the two Lex's were still running they picked up a lot of passengers at Eastern Parkway too.
They would have used "Crescent St." if they ran on the Broadway-Brooklyn local during PM rush hours.
I can't say for sure, but I think they went to Atlantic Ave back in those days.
I know they didn't go to Crescent St then because I lived right there. The center track seemed only to be used to turn back work trains.
I can check my 1948 Hagstrom's BMT map. Funny thing, it has no listing for Culver trains even though the Culver line is still shown as a BMT line.
Karl, you were correct. My 1948 Hagstrom's map lists Canal St. and Atlantic Ave. as the terminals for the Broadway-Brooklyn Local.
I stand corrected.
Of course, this is a 1967 photo, by which time this route could terminate at any one of three stations during PM rush hours.
Wow, that can bring a tear to the eye......
I think this was discussed once a long time ago, but I believe the LOCAL/EXPRESS lights on the front of the train had some control of the trains operation. In other words, if it was set for express, the trains motors operated in a some what different manner than if it was set for express, may have had something to do with "field shunting", what ever that was/is. Anyone out there who can provide some help on this?
Also, how were the colored lights (in this picture yellow and green) changed? Was three a switch in the cab?
As it was explained to me, the Local and Express signs on the bulkhead had no bearing on the final field shunt step.
The marker lights had colored lenses attached to levers which would be positioned in front of the light bulbs in the proper combination.
It was a square arrangement with four lenses, one on each face.
There was a handle sticking down. You would bush up on the handle and turn it to whatever colour wou needed to display.
On the starboard side of the car the leaver was in the mororman's cab. On the port side there was a little trap door that opened in the side panel.
Elias
I stand corrected.
This sounds like the same way that the marker lights were changed on the gate cars.
Steve, I would have loved it if something had been terminating at Crescent St.
I watched the el as if I owned it from about 1942 to 1957, and the only activity the center track had during that time was an occasional work train. The center track switches were almost right alongside my house.
Apparently, after I left the city something did terminate there.
I have a Hagstrom's subway map from the mid-60s and for the Broadway-Brooklyn Local it said: Canal St. and Crescent St. (Jamaica line) or Rockaway Parkway (Canarsie line). This pattern continued with the introduction of the JJ after Chrystie St., but was discontinued on July 1, 1968.
I'm sorry that I missed the Crescent St terminal time period.
It would have been interesting to watch. I guess that they just turned back trains there, but did not cut cars or anything like that.
I notice from Salaam's video that the third track now has switches at the north end as well as the south. They have been added since my departure.
Where is that train, the center track of the Canal Queens bound platform?
That is correct. Broadway-Brooklyn local trains used the center tracks under Delancey St.
They also had "Canarsie" signs instead of "Rockaway Parkway". I remember those very well.
BMT Standards used "neighborhoods" instead of station street names for several terminals:
Jamaica (168 St)
Canarsie (Rockaway Pkwy)
Astoria (Ditmars Blvd)
Coney Island (Stillwell Ave)
And IIRC, they also said "Bay Ridge" instead of 95th St.
It's kind of what the MTA rescently went back to. They started calling the terminals by their neighborhood names now also.
I think the Standards had a sign that said "95th Street Ft.H-ton"
I don't recall a Bay Ridge, but that's not saying that there wasn't one.
Here's the reading of roll signs carried by the 2000 series Standards.
NINTH AV
CITY HALL
62nd ST.BKLYN
BAY PARKWAY
CONEY ISLAND
TIMES SQUARE
KINGS HIGHWAY
57th ST.MANH'T'N
BRIGHTON BEACH
NASSAU ST
FRANKLIN-NASSAU
FRANKLIN AVE
PROSPECT PARK
95th ST.FT.H'TON
QUEENS PLAZA
WHITEHALL ST.
BROAD ST.
METROPOLITAN AV
111th ST
CRESCENT ST
JAMAICA
CANAL ST
CHAMBERS ST
BOWERY
CANARSIE
ATLANTIC AV
EASTERN PKWAY
8th AV.MANH'T'N
MYRTLE AVE
6th AV.MANH'T'N
ASTORIA
The following three readings were added probably in the mid-50's
36th ST-4th AV
DITMAS AVE
FOREST HILLS-QUEENS
Standards equipted with large signs had the following reading below
6th AV.MANH'T'N
via BRIDGE thru
NASSAU LOOP
via TUNNEL to B'KLYN
Standards equipted with large signs had the following reading below Astoria
Via TUNNEL thru
NASSAU LOOP
via BRIDGE to B'KLYN
Larry, RedbirdR33
That's a great list, Larry! That is worth printing out.
Do you think that any of the 4000 series trailers that had large side signs, but were sandwiched between cars of the 2400 series that had small signs, ever got those add-on destinations?
Karl: I'm afraid that I only have a roll sign reading for the 2000 series. Since there were 950 Standards built and there were at least two kinds of roll signs (large and small) there must have been some variation.
Best Wishes
Larry
RedbirdR33
Larry,
Are you aware of the #2800 series B-Types with the GG Local addition to their signs ? There was a plan to run them on the Crosstown Line, but that never saw the light of day.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill: No I wasn't aware of that. Did that come about in the summer of 1966 when the R-16's were sent over to the GG.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Credit to Steve B for answering first; I'd add that they also had the designation Canarsie and not Rockaway Parkway; also seem to remember " 95 St-Fort or FT.H'ton or some similar abbreviation.
Maintained? LOL. Most of the R16's on the J line in the early 80's still had the pistachio green/grey interiors they received in the 1960's!
If you could tell the colors under all the dirt and grafitti!
Right....a lot of them had the beige walls/orange doors scheme.
Those were the 6300 series which stayed in service throughout the 1970's. The 6400 series were mothballed a year before this scheme was adopted and they were never repainted despite remaining in service into the mid 80's.
The R16's were probably the most abused cars in the system. Although what I wouldn't do to see one of those disasters pull into the station......
YoHo! To SECOND your nomination of "screwing up the railroad 12 ways" I always got a chuckle both ways on the brighton how once we "got that damned QB out of the way" we could sail in R1/9's and "brightliners" once those things were "plowed to the side" so the railroad could get through. Spent about an hour in school car at the clutches of those dogs (and the 27/30's) and wondered why they couldn't be carved up instead of the 9's and standards ... they truly were pieces of crap as maintained by CIY ... and it wasn't like CIY was lacking in talent either.
Pitiful cars though, we'd dust 'em on the local track and half my motors were R1's. :)
Spent about an hour in school car at the clutches of those dogs (and the 27/30's) and wondered why they couldn't be carved up instead of the 9's and standards ... they truly were pieces of crap as maintained by CIY
You're talking about the R-16 there?
Ayup ... the 16's weren't greatly loved by crews in 1970/71. Lots of door problems, intermittent faults out the wazoo with propulsion, you name it.
Sometimes it was a coin toss if you were going to make it over the Williamsburg Bridge.
What would you do if you couldn't?
Then it's "Everybody out and push!":-)
Seriously, the train would be taken out of service.
Actually, if a all fails to move the four car train, the intervel behind you would make the hitch and if sufficient motive power was available the train would proceed in service to the terminal where it would be taken out of service and replaced with another train.
Roll back to Essex Street, I guess.
I have a book of Unused London Underground stations, one of them is King William Street, a station so badly designed it was closed in 1900! Picture THIS: a tube going under the River Thames first downgrade then steeply upgrade and it ends in a 140-foot-radius (No Track Sprayers either! OUCH!) curve before entering the terminus. They were using little four-wheeled bogie locomotives hauling 1890 Padded Cell (no kidding!) Tube Stock! If the train was heavily loaded, they often couldn't make the grade and then the curve so they'd send out a tender (a relay locomotive) to fetch the train and then double-head into the terminus. BTW they had a 5mph BOARD OF TRADE (no grade timers, SEMAPHORE signals) speed restriction on this curve. The only curve round here that compares was the old Hudson Terminal PATH, on the inside track. Come to think of it I don't think we here in NYC have anything that's even under 200 feet radius curve, not even the approach to the City Hall Loop is that tight, nor is north of Cortlandt or west of Park Place.
wayne
Ahhhh, my favorite rolling stock. I can still imagine myself as aboy, waiting for the train to leave Queens Blvd, clicking and whirring away. I miss those rolling lemons.
I feel the same way about them. I used to go to Christ the King HS at Metro on the M and would hate to see one of the R16's waiting at the terminal. Now if only I coujld ride one of those disasters.........
In the days of mixed consists, what other types of cars have people seen mixed with R16's ? I have seen them with R27/30s and with R42's, but never anything else.
I could sort of see them with the R27-30's, but with the R42's must have been a strange sight! Not as strange though as an R10 with an R46 that someone posted here a few months ago!
It was September, 1969, waiting for a northbound PM rush hour QJ at Lwarence Street, and an RR came through with 6 R16 and 2 R42 at the end.
Those might have been a test set of 42s or even R40Ms. The R40M and R42 sometimes showed up in strange places during their break-in and test periods.
wayne
That was right during the Smorgasbord Train Era. You never knew what sort of mixed bag you'd wind up on.
For most of their careers, the R-16s stayed by themselves. So did the R-10s.
I remember seeing R-16 lashup with an R-11 on the point in the vicinity of Myrtle Ave. on the Broadway Brooklyn Line. I'm not sure of the date though.
One R-11 was reworked so it could m. u. with other SMEE cars prior to the R-34 rebuild.
Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that only one R-11 was able to be MU'd with the other SMEE cars.
That came about after R-16 6494 was destroyed. R-11 8010 was modified so it could m. u. with other SMEE cars. After being rebuilt under contract R-34, all ten R-11s could m. u. with other SMEE equipment. I still wonder what was different about the R-11s which initially rendered them imcompatible with other car types.
I only saw R-16's and 27/30's together at the yard in ENY..never in a train set.
I'm talking early 80's here.
The only other mix I've heard of was 16's and 11's.
I always thought that they threw 42's into older train sets because of the air conditioning, so there would at least be a FEW air conditioned cars in every train.
Maybe someone can confirm or deny that, because I've always been curious about mixed consists, specifically when they're such different car types.
I used to see R-32s and R-42s coupled together on the D line. Drove me nuts. The odd part was, it was the middle of winter. Luckily, this practice was short-lived. One theory I've come up with is that the yard crews didn't bother to sort out the cars after yard moves and just left them lashed up as they were.
I'm glad I never saw any R-10s in a mixed consist, although it did happen occasionally. We would have been talking major screaming fit if I had.
Sounds like late 60's/early 70's when the TA was chronically short of motorpersons - the car knockers were out in revenue service and they were still coming up short. A lot of the smorgies were the result of knocking together whatever was THERE and taking it out. While rare, they'd often build consists of whatever came out through the steel doors of the car shop as "completed work" in whatever order they came out in ... but that's how and some of them were a NIGHTMARE to try to operate.
Since the R1/9's didn't get all that much "shopping" and weren't at ALL compatible with the other car classes, they got left alone in pretty solid consists. I wasn't so stupid after all, eh? :)
I'm sticking with my theory that no one sorted out the cars after a yard move and they were left coupled together as mixed bags.
Or perhaps they were out to prove it could be done - if you didn't mind the different handling characteristics.
The R-1/9s were lucky in that they had to stay by themselves.
There was a similar scenario in Chicago. The 6000s were not compatible with anything else and consequently ran only in solid trains. Everything from the 2000s and up could and did operate together. Once in a while a solid consist of later equipment would pop up. I saw a solid six-car train of 2000s in August of 1991, and in June of 1998 spotted a solid 8-car train of 2200s.
["The R-1/9s were lucky in that they had to stay by themselves"]
At Branford they couple R9 1689 with a Low-V on member's day and Autumn in New York.
Also on occasion 3662, has been included in the mix. That's when the
dispatcher responds to the "Hi~Lo 9". >G<
:-) Sparky
I meant revenue service. Besides, 1689 can only be coupled iron-to-iron to 5466. They're not compatible otherwise.
Don't forget there is Train Air when the two are running coupled.
How does that work?
Heh. Let's see you guys do that AIR to AIR. Double dog dare ya. :)
I'll see your theory and raise you - that the mongrel consists had more to do with the penchant for weird car cuts for reduced service back in those days - 10 cars for rush hour, then 4, 6 or 8 for off peak. You'd end up with all sorts of "train pieces" and when it was time to knock them back together, whatever made 10 went. Some of the cuts were saner and easily "put back" like the AA which went from 8 cars to 4 and probably others. But there were cuts of TWO cars off the end and they'd add up, same for the 4's off a 10 ... perhaps THIS was why.
Whatever the reason, the practice didn't last very long - a year or two at most.
When I came in, they were finally starting to have enough PEOPLE to fill the boards (trains were routinely ABD'd because there were no crews) but were still short of folks. That probably had a significant impact on the yards and drilling out cars to make matched consists. As the shortage began to ease, there were folks to properly cut and add on the extra board. When I came into the system, I *picked* right out of school car - no extra extra at the time. The luxury didn't exist with all the retirements over the previous years.
That answers a question I've had ever since reading the Pelham 1-2-3 novel. There was mention of six months of yard duty after coming out of school car. If the crew shortage was as acute as you say it was, then your reasoning for smorgasbord trains makes sense.
It was pretty severe. So much so that in my shift, we had to go grab our keys and tools and walk out to our train in the morning and wake it up ourselves, then put it away at the end of the run. There WERE some switchmen assigned to that duty, but nowhere NEAR what they needed. As to Pelham ... well, after all, it IS a novel. You won't find any "Proff" of anything there. :)
Well, that business of closing down the rear section of the train first and then the front section is accurate, right? I've watched conductors do precisely that.
Howdy, guy! Yep, them was the rules ... ass end first, watch the red lamps go out, turn the other way, pull (or whack in the old days) and watch the others go out. All dark, happy days. Of course, it was even easier in my day, you didn't HAVE to turn a key to give indication, when all the relays pulled in on all 10 cars, the little bulb over the air gauge lit up and all was well with the world.
At a terminal of course, you had to step down, reach up and BUZZ BUZZ before the MOTORMAN could yank the plank (indication fairy waved wand before I stepped down and reached since you had to come back between the gates and stand under the storm door to push Beulah the buzzer and that took a few seconds) but other than that, close down, lights out, indication fairy and you could take your time stepping down 'cuz we movin' ... no arms, no legs, happy daze. :)
No key on the R-1/9s. On the R-32s, yes. Am I close?
Heh. Give'um ceegar. Yeah, you had to turn the key to pass indies on the 32's ... church key too. I remember them as having mini-handles for the doors, but might have been buttons. Can't remember, that's how few I got to play announcer in. I *think* there were handles for the door ops like bathroom sink faucets but I would swear they were buttons. Good thing as you grow older, it's the brain that goes first - not like it's a vital organ. :)
AFAIK the R-32s had buttons. Not sure which cars had them first. The R-21/22s still had levers.
Yeah, after all these years I don't remember school car all that well. Unfortunately I was never all that terribly obsessed and the trip back to the city got me a lot of cab peeks on a lot of equipment which only fuzzied it more. I *think* the conductor school was at 14th Street at the time and they had door panels and cab pieces and we got shown buttons, PA, levers and of course bottle cap operation. When I got to see inside cars that had been rebuilt, the cabs were only vaguely as I remembered and that clouded my memories further rather than cleaing things up. :)
But I know *something* I was a conductor on a few times had levers for the door operations. Maybe it was 16's. I honestly don't remember since I spent most of my time on R1/9's ... of course, being obsessed at the time with radio, I sure do remember the PA button. Heh. (and even THOSE have changed from what was originally in the panels - they stick out now)
Maybe you worked R-27/30s once or twice. One of my books mentions when the change from levers to pushbuttons occurred. The R-16s had levers.
Heh. Don't get me wrong, bro ... when you OPERATE, you really don't write down car numbers (unless you NEED to) and pay much attention to the various R numbers (though you DO know the differences, doesn't really matter if it's YOUR train) ... after all, you get what's handed to you (I was lucky, nobody WANTED to work the R9's) and that's that.
But I remember the lever doors and YES, I did do a run or two on cars with inside controls and did those runs on doors with water faucets for door controls. But I'll be dipped if I can remember what, too busy trying to keep time at the time. When you're "in the hole" you really don't have all that much time to take notes. Add a few babes to the mix and you REALLY didn't feel like railfanning. :)
Did they look anything like this?:
Very few R-27/30s got the multicolored route curtain in the front destination slot. I know I never saw one like that on those cars.
Well ... duh. :)
To be honest, don't remember if they were 16's or 27's or 30's ... all I knew as groggy as all get out when I was a conductor was that it was *MY* interval. Whatever was sitting there was MINE. More often than not (back in those days, you could switch a job with a willing partner who didn't want to *HEAR* about riding outside) so I'd mostly end up on arnines ... and I *loved* it (even on rainy/snowy days) ... got some 32's as well. But yeah, those "stretch redbirds" all looked the same to me and frankly I didn't care. Some had buttons, some had faucets, like CI Peter, it was "good work" and I did what I was told hoping to sucker the bastards into cutting me ONE MORE paycheck. Heh.
When I became a motorman, there were FAR more people willing to say "I'll take this one, you take the next" and supervision could give a crap as long as SOMEBODY was on every outbound. :)
"Stretch Redbirds"...it took me a second to realize he meant R-16/27/30's, and why he called them that.
Heh....it's quotes like that is why I love that freakin' Selkirk.
Besides, he gets points added because he worked the D-Train.
Course, he loses points for digging those ugly mama R-1 to 9's, but oh well.
:)
Hey, I loved those oldtimers, too. Too bad I rode on them infrequently on the IND.
One of my early early subway memories is taking the D train up to 205th with my father, and riding in a scary, dark car with rattan seats, and big slow fans overhead.
I give them all respect, I'd rather see ANY car from before 1966- I've hated every car since the R-38, but to me, those R-1 thru 9's are ugly. Put it this way, they looked right at home when they were on the Eastern Division in the early 70's, when the Eastern Division was REALLY falling apart.
I thought the BMT standards looked ugly when I first saw them in July of 1967. Never cared for them while they were still around, but have come to appreciate them for what they were: solid, durable, and damn near indestructible.
Thanks for the good word on R1-9 Steve. Glad I'mnot alone, am sure I have a lot of company. There was NOTHING on the B division before the R32 that could touch an R1-9, I might give the D type a maybe...OK Steve..the R10 DID movewhen they were good, and fast.
Put it this way: I never wound up on a sluggish R-10 consist.
According to Big Ed's book, the R-26s ushered in pushbutton door controls. I still say the jury's out on the R-27/30s. I'd love to sneak a peak in one of 8506's cabs.
Perhaps Big Ed could verify one way or the other on the R-27/30s.
Big Ed, I didn't know you had a book! What is the name of it? Is it still in print?
Speaking on behalf of Big Ed, it's entitled, "They Moved the Millions". Bought my copy straight from the author, which he autographed. AFAIK he still has copies available.
Oh yes, I didn't realize he wrote that one. I already have a copy of it that I got a few years back. I'll have to reread it. It's probably been about 7 years since I read it.
I drilled in the yards of the IRT for approximately a year and a half. From Dec. 1974 to August 1976. It was a great experience. Then the crap came when the TA in their alledged cost cutting measures put me on the Brooklyn Bus Division for two years. I guess I should be happy; they allowed me to keep my Motorman's pay grade.
Sincerely,
Bob
The only other mix I've heard of was 16's and 11's.
They mixed IRT cars with the R16's and ran them in service on the B Division! Talk about "Watch the Gap!" Anyone know of any photos online somewhere?
Actually, Selkirk saw some on the IND...presumably because the Concourse yard services both A and B division..ENY wouldn't have IRT cars to begin with.
I've seen R27/30's and R16's running together as late as 1987 on the M.
At least they blended together stylistically the way the R-32s and R-38s do.
Very seldon on the "J" in the early '80's did I see R16's and 27/30's in the same trainset!! TOny
That's what I'm saying :)
In fact I NEVER did, although I'm sure once or twice they were mixed, Tony....I would see them together in East New York yard from the LL and J platforms, so I'm sure that they went out on the road a few times stuck together.
At least one platform edge sign at 34th Street/Penn Station (#1, #2, #3) has some unusual "extra" text.
The sign in question is on the northbound local platform, near the 33rd Street fare control area, visible to just about anybody connecting from the LIRR (which is how I happened to see it). In addition to the traditional info about the #1 and #2, there's also a line reading "Bob is 50." The extra line seems to be either part of the original sign or a VERY good - technically, that is - example of decal vandalism (I vote for the latter).
That said, who IS Bob?
It was great meeting people on the trip yesterday! I enjoyed myself alot. I got off for the first Whitlock run by, the 176th run by, and the 225th run by, and took pictures at Grand Central, Parkchester, Burnside, Dyckman, and Times Square. I also got pictures of the City Hall loop, Concourse Yard, and 207th Street Yard including the R110Bs and the Union Square R62s. Some of the pictures were taken from inside the train so we shall have to see how well those come out. I also got many pictures of other types of cars that we saw along the way, mostly R62s, R62As (including 1969 for SB Fred and all you other Mets fans), and R142As. Once the film is developed and I scan it, which might be after finals, I will put it on my website, www.orenstransitpage.com.
On my trip to the city on Saturday, my Acela Express left Washington about 40 minutes late. This was due to a power problem that was only on our track (20) it seemed, since the 1:05 unreserved left on time and the train that was due in at about 12:45 came in at 1 on track 19. The fact we left late was good, I had trouble getting my ticket since the machines were not cooperating with me and made it to the gate at about 12:59 only to find they hadn't boarded us yet. They boarded at about 1 and we sat (in the dark in the first business class and the first class coaches) until we left. The trainset was number 10, 2016 and 2038 were the power cars. I believe we passed the 1:05 and once we got going, the trip was nice. It was not very crowded at all.
Once at Penn, I hopped the subway and went to my place of stay. Not having the downtown 6 made getting anywhere south of where I was staying very timely. On Saturday, I took the M102 to Grand Central and got passed by numerous other buses. I was going to take the M104 back from Times Square to the M79, but when I got to 79th, we had been passed already by two M104s and an M79 left as soon as I got there. The next one wasn't for more than 15 minutes (it would have been 5506) so I took a cab back. On Sunday, I got an M103, met OntheJuice on board when he got on, and got passed by other buses before getting of at 45th, since I wasn't waiting two mintues for a scheduling adjustment to ride the last three blocks. Ironically, on Sunday after the trip, I got on the shuttle to Grand Central on Track 1, so I essentially made a really long loop starting at Grand Central that day. I also saw R142As 7400, 7500, and 7600 on Sunday and an R62A 6 train with car 1760 on one end both Saturday and Sunday. Today, the downtown 6 was back so I got on the 9th car of a southbound (7399) adn then an E to 34th. A man who was singing for money on the platform at Lexington announced to everyone that the V would not be running.
The Acela Express trip back was uneventful except for the first seat I wanted to sit in wouldn't recline, so I moved to the aisle seat next to it. When the conductor came through, I informed him of the problem and he made a note of it. At least that was the only problem, the trainset I had on this trip, number 19, was the one that broke down on me in November and had me very annoyed at Amtrak.
Hope you all had fun on the trip today and hope to see some of you again soon!
This is in response to the person that wanted this information last week.
Here is a list of the high speed areas:
A= Acela Express with tilt active
B= Acela Express with tilt system not active or trains consisting exclusively of HHP8, AEM-7 or F40PH and Amfleet cars.
MP86 - 94 A=125mph B= 100mph
MP 155 - 162 A=135mph B=125mph
MP 162 - 170 A=150mph B=150mph yes 150mph
MP 170 - 181.9 A=135mph B= 125mph
MP 190.5 - 195 A=135mph B= 125mph
MP 195 - 205 A=150 mph B=150 mph yes 150mph
MP 205 - Transfer A= 135mph B=120mph
Transfer - MP 226 A= 120mph B=110 mph
Trains carrying mail, baggage or express cars cannot operate over 110mph through the 150mph area and the average speed limit for those trains are 75mph.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello All,
Yep, it's true...after graduating from College last weekend, I am considering many job opportunites, and driving New York City Subways is one of my serious choices. I realize that there is some sort of "entrance exam" given in order to go to subway school. What does this exam entail, and when is the next one scheduled for? -Nick
The next one is a promotional so you have to ALREADY have a job in the subway like cleaner, conductor, station agent, etc.
They are saying the next one will be O/C and Promotional. So he may be able to take the test.
Thanks for the info...if specific dates come up, please let me know. Meanwhile, how do I prepare for this test? -Nick
That's not what I've heard Dave. I've heard that the TA has elected to go promotional only for the next test. I wouldn't be surprised if the current OC T/O list is the only one.
You've graduated from college and you're looking down at a lower job...some might think you're crazy...but from my age of 48...I say DO IT! The examination does have some physical ability tests but if there remains a written exam, you should go to a bookstore to see if there is a National Learning Corperation 'Passbook' for Motorman. DO IT...get the job...and advance yourself because you have a college degree. Sure you can go to private industry BUT the opportunities are phenomenal in TA for those willing to work and learn. I've got eight months on the job and have earned respect and responsibility my former employers never gave me. Sure Civil Service has its hang ups but you go for the first opportunity to move up and out. JUST DO IT! It is no mistake...I promise...and I don't make promises at all...and I wish I knew about this work years ago. CI Peter
Juice,
Thank you for the encouragement! I will go to a bookstore and look for that Passbook. Is it likely that I'll have to start lower than a motorperson, or is it possible to get right into "subway school?" Are you a motorperson yourself, or doing something else for the MTA? -Nick
Entry is directly into Motormans school...there is no position below it. You put in the application and your money order through DCAS, you get your ticket and take the test...waiting for the results , position on the 'list of eligibility' and the call. Chances are the call comes up before the list...TAKE the job as a provisional...you will not lose your employment because TA needs everyone. I work as a Car Inspector for the Division of Car Equipment...my position is 'troubles/backfill' doing troubleshooting duties/special inspections/replacing absent inspectors in all areas of car maintainance. I've learned with the BEST, I work with the BEST...we're CED...WE MAKE TRAINS GO. I can truly say that I MADE NO MISTAKE TAKING THIS APPOINTMENT. The hours to start may be crappy but the work will be good. CI Peter
Actually a correction is in order here - the "train operator" position (formerly "motorman") was always a PROMOTIONAL exam, from a conductor position and possibly also bus operator. They did an "open competitive" ONCE recently and it appears from the grapevine that they're not keen on making the position "off the street" next time around. I went into it via the conductor route and was lucky enough to be hired up at a time when there were SO many positions open, as soon as I was appointed as a conductor, I got tested and promoted within a few months. It ain't like that normally.
Kevin: that is true based upon postings. One entire class of 50 'off the street'T/Os was recalled for retraining. You know my feelings about these exams but it doesn't necessarily mean that the TA won't try again. Nick has a lot more opportunities to explore in TA...like engineering internship programs. Any foot in the door is worth two in the creek...just to get your feet wet. Sad to say that 'English as a first language' doesn't mean 'a rats ass.' You do the work, you do your best, you be your best, you survive the senior hecklings, you earn respect and 'someone finds you.' Then you move up and move OUT. TA work is EXCELLENT work. CI Peter
Sounds like I've got a few opportunites, whether subway school is first, or I have a step as a conductor first. Where should I go from here? is there someone I should contact at the MTA do get this process going? Thanks for everyone's help on this! :-) -Nick
I'm not a TA employee, but I do know there is no actual "Subway School."
To get a job, you apply for the exam, you're then ranked on a list based on your score. They then call the needed number of applicants starting from the top of the list for a couple of years, until they create a new list by holding another exam.
In any case, if you get in and pass your physical, then you begin a training program ("school car" I believe) which lasts some time. You must be confusing school car with some sort of university for potential transit professionals (like Transit Tech High School in Brooklyn).
The 'Subway School' is located at PS 248 in Brooklyn, just a few minutes walk from the CI yards. They provide introductory and overview courses for new employees in the Transit Administration, develop course materiels for use in the system at local levels, have different kinds of 'simulators' available on site for use in instruction and produce written course materiels for transit personel. Advanced training takes place at CI or the 207th facilities. BTW, not only will I enter a HVAC certification program developed there (presumebly attending CI) but my internet handle, OnTheJuice, is in honor of one of the instructors who recognised my interest and aptitude for the work I do as a Car inspector. JPEGS of the facilities are available on this site. There really is a 'Subway School' and they even have a Redbird in the backyard! CI Peter
Oh right! I forgot about that.
But am I correct that you take the test, and what you learn at this school (or in a school car) is your workplace training? That is, you don't need to take classes and get a certificate or diploma before applying?
What Transit wants and needs is responsibility and interest in the work. The school starts you off...what was five weeks for Car Inspector was compressed down to two and your workplace is your training...hands on with people who complain about taking on the 'new guys.' Train operators and conductors go on to 'school cars' and dealing with the public for what I believe may last six months. Your career/seniority status starts with the first day of class and not when you're on your own or get 'permanent status.' You do not need to take classes or get certification before applying...you are hired for the position based upon past experience...nobody usually has motormans experience...some are conductors...but TA has opened up to the 'outside' so usually a high School Diploma/Drivers License/some working experience is all that is required for many positions. Technical positions like Car Inspector were a bit more complicated as TA used to look 'inside' for applicants but they took the 'industry route' to pick up 'middle agers' for experience and responsibility at a 'bargain wage.' NO complaints from me...this is my last chance for a decent career and my 'last job.' TA has given me good work and I return the favor everyday...despite the ranting of the 'senior guys' whom I consume macadamia nuts (NOT peanuts) off their bended heads. CI Peter
OK training for Conductors.
A Div 6 Weeks B Div 6 Weeks and 1 day
Train Operators
A Div 3 Months B Div 5 Months
We in R.T.O like to just call it School Car. I remember back when I had to Report to PS 248 the learning Center. My first day my dad drove me in and I got on the B Train at 34 St and 6 Ave and waited forever for the train to arrive. Then took the long ride to 25 Ave. I already picked A Div which was Day 1 at the Union Hall so I didn't have to deal with the long commute that long. There where 6 field training locations when I came out.
B Div.
PS 248 , Coney Island YD, Pitkin YD, Jamaica YD
A Div.
E 180 St (Main IRT Training center) Corona YD
After that you go back to PS 248 for your final Exam. That means back on the B Train now W Train. I notice two voices so I went back to the C/R Position and found a B Div classmate doing her last day of posting. We exchanged war stories and then went are diffrent ways.
There really is a 'Subway School' and they even have a Redbird in the backyard!
It's an "impostor" :) It's an R-16 that got the Redbird paint treatment.
--Mark
The steps are:
Check the MTA websire MONTHLY to see what exams are coming up.
The exams and lists are administered by the NYC-DCAS. At their site you will find all necessary forms, due dates, info. You send in your paperwork to the DCAS.
!! MAIL IN YOUR FORMS ON THE FIRST POSSIBLE DAY !!
Duplicate scores on the exam are ranked in the order the applications were recieved. This can make a huge difference in list number.
Once the city DCAS determines you are eliqible for a job, you are put on a list ranked by score, then the MTA hires you off the list when they need people to fill the list position.
The process is not fast. Some lists are posted right after the test day(s), and some are posted almost 1 year later. The MTA then can call you, based on your list number, at any time after the list is posted and active, which is usually one _more_ year.
Certain positions are hiring very fast right now, but don't hold your breath.
"websire"
"eliqible"
Post first, proofread later.
Thanks, Dave! -Nick
I notice that the best Motorman where Conductors. Because they understand whats going on in the middle not only the front. When something happens they make a PA Announcement themselves or pass the information by radio or IC. I only worked with 3 out of 8 Off the street T/O's that I felt where doing great. One came out from the last class. She was doing great we where on time until a TSS came on and started to bug her. Then again thats all part of being on probation.
Yeah, back in my day I'd say 99% of all motormen were conductors in a past life, many of them wearing the monkeysuit for more than ten years before moving up to the front of the train. I was a VERY lucky kid because of the time when I landed there and the situation the railroad was in - also the reason why a lot of the old timers REALLY resented a "snot nosed kid being given handles without earning them." It was really like that back then and that's one of the reasons for so many of my comments here over the past couple of years regarding the guff the O/C TO's are getting now. Different sitch, but only slightly from my own reality.
But yeah, when you wore the happy hat and watch prior to moving to the forward broom closet, you actually KNOW there's another guy or gal "back there" that you need to work with. :)
Bottom line Nick, if the TA offers a test whether it be for Train Operator, Conductor, Cleaner, Property Protection, etc., TAKE IT!
You only need to be in one of the other titles for at least 1 day in order to take a T/O promotional exam.
There's no guarantee that the next T/O exam will be available to out-of-agency persons, so take whatever exam the TA offers. I did, and now I've been a T/O for quite a while now.
excellent..I'll keep my eyes on the lookout for an exam! -Nick
I have to agree here ... I only did it for a short time but I look back fondly on it. It was harder work than I thought it would be and I wasn't terribly great at it. But I'd HIGHLY recommend it for anyone who loves trains - it's a great way to get a more real perspective on it all and sorta cure the foaminess too. :)
This 'foaminess' must be some kind of a rabid subwaynerdskybuffimkrank disease that's combining with my unterkarpukeinkrackputzinfabrik. I can cough up 'lungies' stronger than the best LocTite cyanocrilates. Working 'upstairs' is better...looking foward to the day when I can move over to East 180th Street shops...even the floor is sterile! CI peter
Sterile floors and clean desks are a sign of inactivity. Hork up another lunger - some deserving redbird may need it to keep the body on the chassis. :)
If the next test is not OC, my class should take most of the blame. My classmates have made so many mistakes, that I think we caused the TA to rethink the OC decision.
In my opinion, OC can be a success, as long as they don't hire far below list number 500, or 1,000, and extend the length of training time.
On occasional circumstances on the Arrow III on either the side or center doors, the doors would:
1. Open
2. Slowly push to close about 2 inches max.
3. Suddenly pull back to its full open position
Sometimes they're fast, and sometimes they're gentle.
1) Can anyone tell me what triggers this abnormal motion? (Defective door motor?)
2) On rare circumstances, the door would close and open, making the bell ring each time the door was sent to close, and open, then the bell would ring again once the door was fully open for it to close, making a repeated procedure sending everyone for eardrums. On what occasions would this happen?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I am unfamiliar with these cars. However, the symptoms sound
identical to behavior I've observed in the NYCT fleet. Does
this happen when the train is stopped on a grade? If they have
the same half-panel operators as most of the later cars in
the NY system, then once the doors are fully open, there is
no holding current. On a steep grade, the door panels will
start to drift closed, until the microswitch which cuts off
the door power in the opening direction closes again, then
the doors are powered open.
The door chime circuit, at least on NYC subway cars, is wired
through a microswitch in each door that makes when the door
is fully open. If the door travels enough before it reverses,
it might trip that switch and start a door chime cycle.
I guess that's what happens so I'll take your explanation. But the NEC line doesn't have any type of steep grades, and usually the same doors have that problem.
I'm not sure what cause that, but it is common on the LIRR's MU's, NYCT Subways and MNRR MU's.
I had a great time (despite several long delays). It brought back some very fond memories. The D-types looked and ran great. Kudos to those involved in their restoration.
I met several subtalkers whom I had seen previously - Bill Newkirk, heypaul, Mark W., and met a few new faces - Notchit and Cleanairbus (sorry if I left anyone out!)
(P.S. thanks for the mail delivery, BMTman! - sorry I missed you)
I would have loved to go......but had to work......oh well, there's always next time............
The Transit Museum is doing some trips with these girls this summer, so stay turned to this Bat Channel .....
I wanted to go, but someone gave me tickets to the Mets game.
I should've gone to the Railfan trip instead. Mets lost. Pathetically.
hey i was there. it was great. but the horn sounded like a kazoo with a air hose connection. i was the one with the red messenger bag with all the train line pins and the brooklyn shirt. take care
I was there too! I met a most woderful gent named Sea Beach Fred, who by his own zest for life should be an inspiration for us all, and I also met Peggy from the Subways.org homepage. She is a storehouse of knowledge on the subways of almost any major city. The only sour note came from some irate clown who spewed foul language at us while we were on the Franklin Ave. shuttle portion of the trip, and I just said to myself that if he made one wrong move, then I would get the displeasure of seeing his decrepit face when I went back to work - not very pleasant. He left the train at Prospect Park station, and I was happy to see him go - away. Otherwise, thetrip was great, and I will remember it well.
The only sour note came from some irate clown who spewed foul language at us while we were on the Franklin Ave. shuttle portion of the trip
That "gentleman" also punched the wall and and cracked a piece of glass. He was upset that everbody was taking pictures and making him late for work.
If a plain-clothes cop caught him and locked him up, he would have been very late for his job, and a real pain in the you-know-what at mine.
I didn't witness this incident but I understand that Bill Wall "politely" told him that "if you don't like it get the &*^% off my train" ....
--Mark
Really? I was standing a few feet from the guy. I heard his tirade (he could probably have been heard in the Bronx), but I didn't see him hit anything.
David
Ah yes, Sea Beach Fred. Didn't look at all like I pictured him. What a kid at heart. Well spoken and happy as a kid in a rolling candy store.
One other person of note was the conductor. He was entertaining and very much into his assignment. He told me that he was second on the list of hopefuls for the trip and didn't think he would be called, but once he was, he latched on tightly to the opportunity. I plan on writing a letter of commendation to the TA about this gem and would like to know if anyone here has an e-mail address at the TA that would be read.
Um, what I meant by "Didn't look at all like I pictured him" was not a reference to his demeanor but to his appearance. I pictured him as a burly, silver-mustached, raspy-voiced guy who would instantly fly into a rage in defense of the Sea Beach, while constantly shaking a fist at you, sorta like Jack Klugman.
Glad to have met you.
I take it Fred didn't get into any fistfights over the railfan window, then.:-)
No we let him have it (the railfan window that is) on the ride down the Sea Beach Express :)
--Mark
I'll bet he wore a silly grin the whole time.
I was beaming from ear to ear---and I want to thank the man who gave me the window. I couldn't find after the trip was over. I still owe him a free dinner on me. Please let me know your handle, I forgot. And thank you very much.
I was real glad to have met you on the trip - Stay well and safe, and come back for more trips, so you can tell the rest of us some stories from the rides you took in Brooklyn.
Fred,
Very nice to meet you on Sunday! I finally got to see the man behind the handle. I introduced myself during the day and mentioned that I posted under my own name on Subtalk and that I hadn't posted in awhile. I was wearing a black jacket and an orange backpack. Late in the afternoon I was standing just behind you as we rode out the J, and said (as it related to our being on a two track el structure going between buildings at roof level), this was the closest most of us were going to get to the feel of the old 5th Ave. El. I was a few folks back on the Sea Beach later on - it was good to see you enjoying yourself, and that you were finally able to ride the D-Types down the Express tracks! I'm sure I'll see you again on fantrips in the future, take care, and keep on ridin' the rails....
- Ed
Keep posting Ed. I'll look forward to railfanning with you again some time down the road. Yes, I remember our conversation, and remember that I told you to get with it and post. Glad to see you on board.
Hey Fred, was that you who asked me to take your picture (disposable camera) next to the in-car signage that I hand-cranked over to "SEA BEACH L'C'L? Then you snapped me and my daughter next to the sign?
If so, pleasure meeting you finally (of if it was somebody else please speak up!).
Cheers,
Rienzi
It was me Rienzi. I didn't know who you were but I would have recognized the name. It is, after all, the name of General Philip Sheridan's famous horse. Sheridan was one of the four great Union generals during the War of the Rebellion (got that Anon), and kicked the living hell out of those Rebel bums in almost every battle he fought in. You didn't notice my hat and shirt, though? I had my #4 Sea Beach Fred on both of them. Well it was good to meet you, too, and your little girl is a peach. Take care and have a great weekend.
Fred: What you said about Phil Sheridan's horse reminds me of what Joe Hooker said when he was given command of the Army of the Potomac. He said "that his headquarters would be in his saddle." When General Lee heard this he said "that he would very much like to meet the general who had his headauaters where his hindquarters should be."
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember reading that in a bood about Hooker. Lee was probably licking his chops anticipating taking on this second rate blowhard general, just as he did McClellan, Pope, Burnside, and Meade. It was a different story when he had to go up againt Grant, who harried and harrassed him, blasted away, chewed and choked and drove Lee's army to total capitulation.
Fred: Hooker was a bit of a blowhard but he was a good division commander. Burnside was a decent and honest man who also made an excellent division commander but was not capable enough to be an army commander.
Meade was quite a different story. He was a competent professional. When Lee heard that Meade had been appointed to command the Army of the Potamac he was heard to remark "General Meade with make no mistake on my front and if I make one he will not hesitate to take advantage of it. Don't forget that at Gettysburg the Army of the Potomac did something it had never done before. It stole a march on the Army of Northern Virginia and reached the high ground at Gettysburg first. Lee's army was decisively beaten in what everone realized was the turning point of the war. The criticism leveled at Meade that he was not energetic enough in pursuit of Lee after the battle was unfair. One thing you could say about Lee, win or lose, when you met him on the battlefield you were in for a fight.
Meade was also a loyal soldier. When Grant was appointed General-in-Chief Meade offered to step down as the Army Commander and serve in whatever capacity Grant saw fit to put him in. Grant replied that he had no intention of replacing him after his great victory at Gettysburg.
Even with Grant in full command it still took almost two more years to bring the Army of Northern Virginia to heel.
I think that Meade never gets the credit that he deserves. Perhaps the greatest compliment that I can pay to him is to say that his greatest acheivement was not what he did but what he did not do. He did not join that long list of Union generals, (McDowell,McClellan,Pope,Burnside and Hooker) who went down to defeat at the hand of the Army of Northern Virginia.
Its a good thing I'm making this post late at night. Hoepfully Dave's in bed and won't realize how far off topic we are.
Of course we could always talk about the "UNDERGROUND RAILROAD."
Best Wishes,Larry,Redbirdr33
When I was a kid in New York I actually believed the Underground railroad actually had cars and tracks. Imagine that? As far as what you said you are overwhelmingly correct. Hooker did well in the West at Lookout Mountain, and Burnside, likewise, won Knoxville two months before during the critical Chatanooga Campaign. However, I am still of the firm belief that had Grant, Sherman, Sheridan, and George Thomas been in high command positions during the 1862-63 campaigns the war would have ended much sooner because these four were outstanding generals who could match anything the Rebels could throw at them.
Fred: So you remember George Thomas,'The Rock of Chickamaugua."
A Southern officer who stayed with the north. Thomas was slow and deliberate in his movements but when he struck he did so with the force of a thunderbolt.
We had three railway tunnels in New York in Civil War days. The Murray Hill Tunnel and the Mount Prospect Tunnel both of which are still in use today and the Cobble Hill Tunnel which I have heard is a secret meeting place for Sea Beach rail fans.
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
Cobble Hill, eh? Never heard of it but if it's still around I want to find it. Good to know you're a Civil War buff. That is my overwhelmingly favorite part of US History. I see you know your stuff too. I knew I saw a winner when I ran into you. Have a great day.
Did he turn his Met's hat backwards ?
Mr rt < G >
The trip was fun, BTW- one persaon coined a 50cent phrase for us which I modified with their permission:
we are Electroferroequinologists.
electro- electric
Ferro-Iron
Equin-Horse
Ologist- One who studies.
A casual rail fan is an electroferroequinist.
Just out of curiosity, was the C/R on the "D" Type excursion a heavy-set gentleman by the name of Alan Bromberger?
Alan was on the trip, but as a passenger.
David
Thank you, David.
Yes, it was a great trip today. Good to meet fellow subtalkers.
The D-Types actually picked up passengers on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, so when someone asks when was the last time the D-Types where in revenue service, you can say May 27, 2002 :-)
Great photos. Did all three Triplexes run? I didn't see 6112 in any of the pics.
Yes, all three units ran, though one unit was dropped for the run on the Shuttle.
--Mark
I was there too. Had a great time, took a few photos and sold about 10 2002 subway calendars. Sold out the last of the bunch. The 2003 edition is on the horizon.
The high point of the trip was the express run on the north bound Brighton Line. For me as we sailed through Newkirk Ave, it was like the "D"s were home again except we were short one three car unit. The "D"s road like the heaveyweights they are. I could close my eyes and with the sounds and smells of the cars could swear it's the early 1960's on the BMT !
The slow point of the trip was two round trips on the Franklin Shuttle which tied up the line big time. One round trip would have sufficed.
Other than that the trip was full of happy moments and even happier railfans. Thank God the weather held a up and didn't rain. Fantrips and rain don't go well together.
Met Mike Hanna, Mark W, Silver Fox, Bob Andersen, West End Man, #4 Sea Beach Fred, George's Pool Hall, Peggy D and maybe other SubTalkers. It was a nice trip on a nice day drawing stares and dropped chins from those who have to pay $1.50 to ride subway cars with scratched windows!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I spoke to you briefly on the platform at Park Place.
I have a great full speed runby of the D-Types running south on the Brighton Express at Ave M. Wowsa!
--Mark
Does anybody have any idea how high the bull and pinion gears got up to pitchwise? If the Triplexes were geared the same as the R-1/9s, I would imagine F# to G above middle C on the Brighton express would be right.
What is meant by "Triplex."
Michael
>>What is meant by "Triplex<<
The nickname "Triplex" was coined to described the BMT D-Types that are permanently linked into three car units. Both ends of the center unit share one truck with the end unit. Instead of six trucks, there are four trucks. Between these units is a diaphram that allows passengers to walk between cars on a rainy day and not get wet.
Bill "Newkirk"
Those diaphragms never leaked, either. On a scale of one to ten in terms of car design, the Triplexes were a 12.
>>Those diaphragms never leaked, either. On a scale of one to ten in terms of car design, the Triplexes were a 12<<
Yeah and they done in by those shiny upstart R-32s !! Stevie, you should been on those ultimate rail polishers on Monday. Maybe next year for the March of Dimes, the D Types invade the IND and fly down the Central Park West express !! Then we will see you there.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hell, if that's the case, you'll see *me* there. :)
It's too bad they can't have a fantrip in the fall. IIRC there was one on Oct. 18, 1998, and I flew in the following day. Missed it by that much.
I'd give anything to ride on the Triplexes.
Someone remember to turn the timers on CPW OFF for that fantrip :)
--Mark
Bob, I'm glad the 'Mark W. Express Service' worked out. You were owed the BERA newsletter some months ago, and I figured you'd appreciate that issue of Railpace with the cover article. Enjoy...
I took pictures of the D-Types, but was pressed for time (had other things on the agenda for Memorial Day) so was not on the train...
Hope to you see on one of our 'spontaneous' railfan trips that'll probably occur at various times during the summer.
Doug
I'm also a fan of the BMT. I wonder if you saw #4 Sea Beach Fred? If you did please say heelo to him for me. I hope that he had fun riding the Triplexes.
#3 West End Jeff
I was with him from across the Willy B to the CI Yard...Hey, Sea Beach Fred, if U can hear me, this is Cleanairbus, the pics were great!!!!!!!
Hello to BMT Man, Sea Beach Fred, Notchit, and all the other Subtalkers I spoke to that day!
I had a very good time there...full of moments to share...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Cleanairbus, the pleasure was all mine. I enjoyed meeting you and sharing in the fun we had. What a blast. If you noticed me on that Sea Beach run, that was no 61 year old man hugging the railfan window with Mark Feinmann. That was a 12 year old kid living it up and helping to bring back memories that I have cherished for decades. It doesn't get any better than that. Have a great day.
Hey Fred, did you ask anyone to pinch you to make sure it wasn't just a dream?:-)
Sounds as if you had a great time.
Sea beach Fred, I'm glad to hear that you had a blast on the trip with the BMT Triplexes on the Sea Beach Line. When I was on the "W" train on Friday May 24, 2002 and it got diverted to the Sea Beach Line, I thought of you and how much fun you would have riding the "Triplexes" all the to Coney Island on the Sea Beach Line. I hope to see you soon.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff: Remember that from October 10-15 there is going to be a big get-together in New York. No fan trip is planned, just a bunch of railfanners that want to meet each other and have a blast. As far as I know there are seven of us already lined up as certain participants with about a half-dozen other potentials. Maybe you and others should circle those days. It should be a blast.
Put me down as a definite maybe!
The group is also considering the Charter of the R-9 at Branford on Sunday Oct 13th. If serious about this e-mail 8th Ave Exp Steve.
If we say that it's Steve's birthday you guys can decorate the car, have a pizza & a cake with your ride on the line, BUT you also have to clean up after yourselves unless you leave a very big tip for the operator < G > Folding table & broom provide no extra charge ;-)
Mr rt__:^)
On second thought, how about if we say it Fred's birthday? It's really on the 27th, but we can celebrate two weeks early. Whaddaya say, Fred?:-)
If it's Fred's birthday, then you'll need to charter 6688 so you can sign it to Willet's Point < G >
Mr rt__:^)
Too bad Shoreline doesn't have a Triplex.:-) Fred didn't like the BMT standards. If we do charter 1689 and pass it off as my birthday (it would be a month early), we'd have to sign it up as an A.
Steve
It would be your charter on 1689, so you'll have the prerogative to set the signs as you desire. Currently, since Victor G's visit they
have been reset to S-Special Aqueduct, outbound and S-Special
Jamaica-179th Street-Aqueduct Race Track. Looking forward to
meeting all in October at B.E.R.A. But remember, you have to be kind
to the "Dispatcher" or he'll red ball you in the siding. >G<
:-) Sparky
Cool. As long as I can work the doors once or twice.:-)
Steve,
That should be no problem at Avenue "L". Most likely, if its Chartered it will operate solo that day.
:-) Sparky
If she is going solo, I've got to replace the trolley rope, it is too short and I don't want to be climbing on top of the car if it dewires. It barely makes it in the door, East Haven bound.
We'll most likely solo, I don't think we'll get enough attendees to warrant the train. Yes, we have better change the rope. Someone has to tend to it inbound. Also on the grapevine, Selkirk may attend. >G<
:-) Sparky
Uh-oh, women and children off the streets in that case.:-)
It'll be like finding a long-lost toy for Kevin.
And boy oh boy am I hoping I can come up with some cash to contribute to something meaningful there, and have the time to actually get DOWN there this year. Been a rough year on our end here and I could really use a trip to Branford, even if it's just to sit in a car and contribute to revenue service. But getting to hang out with some of the folks I already know, and meet some I haven't as yet, well that'd be icing on the cake.
Unfortunately, the situation is not even having time to go take in a movie, much less travel, take a day and change off (with what I do here, I work about 16 hours a day, seven days a week) and kick back and get into some serious foaming, even if only as a goof. Those who came out to play with Bingbong (Nancy) and I for Kissmoose when we came down to the city can attest that we ain't boring. Heh.
Sure would love to make it and have some fun among friends. A few years ago, we had people here and some money and coule actually get away and have some fun. Them days sorta died after the last national election. Sure hope I don't have to wait until after January 2005 to get to Branford ... but if we can get there, this'd be the reason. Our last trip to NYC prior to Kissmoose was in the mid 1980's just to show what a treat can be for us, sorry we didn't get to meet the subtalkers we invited, but Harry's place came out ... ALL of the "personalities" there made it for our last visit and it was an absolute BLAST!
But if we can get there, and pay our proper dues, you betcha!
I would love to see your expression upon seeing 1689.
So would I ... it's been a LONG time for me - more than 30 years now since I last set foot in one. I'd get the biggest kick though climbing up and waking her up from dark actually - anyone can pull a controller or pull 40 pounds. Remembering to turn on the compressor breaker, well ... that takes school car. :)
I'm HOPING this year will be the year I can actually take two days off to get down there and back. Given my weird life, it doesn't have to be a weekend but alas, that damnable demand meter pretty much says my fun would have to get in the way of others just to beat the fare for electrons.
Hello Cleanairbus. It was nice meeting you on the trip (even though you never read any of my posts here :-)
Bob, sorry I missed the Triplex trip, but I spent the day at Branford Saturday on my second apprentice shift as a volunteer operator. Although they worked us with 20 minute headways instead of 30 minutes me and Arthur (my 5 yo son) was able to slip away a couple of times to R-9 1689, the BMT Standard, and the Ralph Kramden GM Bus. But no Triplex.
I spent the day at Branford Saturday...
I assume you mean Sunday or Monday? (I was there running the rotation with JJ and Walter on Saturday, as Thurston and Doug can attest.)
20 minute headways
Glad I didn't have that! We annulled the 10:30 and 16:30 trips for lack of passengers so JJ and I each ran four, with Walter running three. The trips we did run were pretty busy though.
I'll be up there again on the 15th - two overlapping charters so far that day, should be interesting :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, it was Sunday I meant. There were 3 others including Bart from our class. Bill Young was dispatching.
Right, we were there getting dirty on the roof of 6688. Had to shut the power off so we didn't get grounded for the day ;-)
Later we finished changing some ties using a couple of service cars to help. Didn't finish until almost dark.
Mr rt__:^)
Big Lou, Sparky, Bill Dobkins & Jimmy Boylan shared the operating chores on Monday.
We used a "WBY" 20/30 minute schedule with Big Lou doing the "Spatching". The only trip that ran light was the
1400, I was the scheduled operator. The 20/30 4 person sched, that
I had Sir George print a copy of, needs tuning. There are no breaks
for three of the operators in it. If you do all trips, two do five
tours, one does four and the fourth in the PM does, three. The 1630
was light out of Sprague, but did have a 1640 pick-up at Short Beach.
Needless to say, the entire length of the rail was Polished from end
to end. Later the nameless one had to get #25 to tend to a banner in
the Quonset. [Thank the Lord, I wasn't "Spatching" or we may have had
Murder at BERA.]
The day ended with a pleasant dinner at the usual on Brandord Hill
with Big Lou, Super Cop, Cupcakes & I.
Operators interested, I am "Spatching" on the 8th and we have four
charters that Saturday.
:-) Sparky
How did "CERA Day" at Branford turn out? What came out to play for this group?
--Mark
Money Car G pulled by 1227 was at the high level platform. No RT trips can be made on the weekdays because of the cost of power during "Peak" times.
(Don't kill me if I misquote a date here, I'm rushing this to leave on the hour)
639 1939 TARS (Third Ave Car)
4573 1906 BRT convertable
775 1904 ConCo
1911 1915 Conco
Were used for trips down the line for most of the day. 2001/357 did make one or two trips on request.
1792 (forget the date BRT Trolley) was pulled out of the barn for photo's.
Grass at end of track Short Beach was trimmed by a certain operator using various service cars.
Again because of power concerns the PCC's could not come out but Newark PCC 27 and H&M 503 were in the shop for all to see (as well as 1689 R9 which now sits outside in the yard).
Needless to say the BMT Standard, SIRT Car 388 (with some talk about getting her moving once more under her own power) and that Chicago Car ( I don't know what she is) drew many a CERA member over to them.
The gift shop did a brisk business as well, two different buses from a friend of the museum one being a fish bowl suburban shortie was used to transport CERA from New Haven Station. I'm not a bus fan but the other bus is similar to the two we have in our collection.
Mark,
I wasn't at the Museum on Tuesday, but got "Big Lou" who was operating
to answer your request. He did it in a hurry when he was ready to
egress to go home, so I'll add some minor corrections. Sounds like a
good time was had by those present.
639 1939 TARS (Third Ave Car) that's 629,
1911 1915 Conco, it's a 1919 ConnCo New Haven Car, not part of the
regular service fleet,
1792 (forget the date BRT Trolley) LOU it's a Brooklyn Car from 1899.
>Couldn't help myself with that comment<
I wanted to be there, but was restricted by the "Chief Dispatcher".
So I did my tour on Monday and concur with Lou about the rail polishing and grass mowing at Short Beach.
:-) Sparky
Thanks Sparky & Lou ...
--Mark
Your welcome, Mark.
:-) Sparky
I wonder if "that Chicago car" is 4280, one of the 4000-series L cars. I saw it at Shoreline back in 1980. AFAIK it is not operable and has had only cosmetic work (paint) done since it was acquired.
Interestingly enough, Warehouse Point has four 4000-series cars, one of which is a trailer, and at least two of them run. At least they were operable in the early 80s.
Shoreline:
- 4280 is still there, a Cincinnati car from 1922. She's basically on static disply in the back. She needs some friends, so any of you folks transplanted here from The Windy City please contact one of us & we'll get you dirty. I don't know her specific operational state, but she doesn't look in too bad a shape.
The Point:
- Yes they have five cars from the CTA elevated. They brought one out for their annual meeting (I saw it being powered up, but could stay for a ride). There is a second in a barn ... it may be the Trailer of which you speak. The rest are outside in the elements.
Kingston: Don't they has one of these CRT elevated cars too ?
Seashore:
- They also have a couple of cars from Chicago ... St Louis #6599 & 6600 from 1957, "Span Cans" ?
Mr rt
One of the 4000s at Warehouse Point (the trailer, IIRC) was still wearing an old red and green Chicago Elevated paint scheme. The others sported the more familiar green and yellow/cream paint scheme.
Steve, Do you mean like this ?
CTA Elevated car
Mr rt__:^)
Hmmmm ... address was toooooo long ?
anyhow it's:
http://www.ceraonline.org/collection/Images/Car4284b.jpg
That's the one.
Ah ha..that name Spam can hasn't been forgotten...it was a good name for the 6000's. Hollow feeling and noisy as they were. For those who'd like more Chi equipment [and now I.m aware that there is some in the east] I'd like to recommend a visit to the Illinois Railway Museum, you can have everything from bus-trolley bus- streetcar up to and thru various stages of traction, icluding a GG-1...to vintage diesels and some huge steam too. not everythig operative but worth the visit. They had steam, diesel, North Shore,and CTA's running when I was there.
I remember the 6000s very well. Rode on them a number of times on what is now the Red Line. Noisy as hell in the State St. subway; even the R-10s were never that bad.
You got that right!
<< [Illinois Railway Museum] had steam, diesel, North Shore,and CTA's running when I was there. >>
Still do, AFAIK. Frank Hicks, who posts here from time to time, is a big cheese at IRM and I'm sure he'll be glad to answer any questions about rolling stock/motive power at the museum.
Preserved 4000s (from data courtesy Frank Hicks):
4271/4272 CTA historic fleet
4175, 4284, 4409, 4436 Warehouse Point.
4280 Branford
4387, 4420, 4453 East Troy
4103, 4288, 4451 Fox River
4267, 4439 Grand Rapids Elec Ry (whatever that is?)
4146, 4290, 4321, 4391, 4410, 4412 IRM
4255, 4293, 4388, 4454 Indiana Transp. Museum
4442, 4450 Michigan Transit Museum
4325 Minnesota Trans. Museum
4441, 4449 Ohio Ry Museum
That doesn't include a whole bunch of 4000s that were kept
for parts. So, as you can see, this is a fairly well-preserved
group of cars. Oddly enough, Seashore doesn't have one!
Hmmm. IRM must have TWO 4391s then. The Green Hornet plus the L car.
Yes, the 4000s are very popular among transit museums. The fact that they had trolley poles certainly didn't hurt. They were basically "ready to run" when acquired by museums, if they were in fact operable.
I wonder if IRM ever runs all six of their 4000s at once. AFAIK they have run four at one time. It's a power issue. At some point, circuit breakers start to trip. I was informed by an RTD engineer that four-car trains can run on our light rail line with no problems. A five-car train will trip breakers.
So sorry, that was a typo. You are correct of course. 4391
is not an el car.
So how many 4000s does IRM have, then? I've seen a picture of a four-car train of them on their mainline.
Bob ... sorry I didn't get to meet you, though you probably were looking at my back for quite some time :)
--Mark
I heard you were on board Bob and I don't think we ran into each other either. Maybe next time. But you did miss a treat when we rode the Sea Beach to Coney Island. I was in full flower. I felt like a kid again.
It was good to meet you too Bob, looking forward to the next trip.
I can honestly say I can't remember having a more fun weekend. This is one of the best vacations I ever had. It was a pleasure to meet you guys, especially Mark S. Feinman (does the S stand for subway?) Thank you for the spending Thursday with me and showing me around. If any sub-talker visits Chicago, I will have a spot my motor cab for you.
I can honestly say I can't remember having a more fun weekend. This is one of the best vacations I ever had. It was a pleasure to meet you guys, especially Mark S. Feinman (does the S stand for subway?) Thank you for the spending Thursday with me and showing me around. If any sub-talker visits Chicago, I will have a spot in my motor cab for you.
ChicagoMotorman ... anytime. Glad you enjoyed it (sorry I tired you out Thursday :). "S" really stands for "Scott" but, OK, it now stands for "Subway" - heck, it Meat Loaf can make that his name legally, I can change my middle name to subway!
How was "CERA Day" a Branford on Tuesday?
--Mark
...Today's Triplex Railfan Trip..any trips planned in august ??
i will B there & i would like 2 buy a ticket !!!
Listen up, people have posted many times the TRANSIT MUSEUM is sponsoring 3 trips this summer, too in August.
Why don't you mail them or spend a buck and call them at there Program Reservation Number 718-694-5139 Tue-Fri 10am to 4pm EDT.
I wonder if any of these future trips will involve RedBirds?
I'd really like to see an R33/R36 Fan trip in their original blue colors.
Now That would be a site to see.
#9533 7 Flushing Local
No they will be D-Types because it's a Transit Museum event. So, you'll have to catch one of the Red Bird sets still in service (maybe the ERA might do a trip).
BTW, the Transit Museum has one in Blue & White or you could buy a set from MTH ... just a little smaller. I'll probably go for a add on set since I don't have a layout.
Mr rt__:^)
ok so when i call who do ask for to get the real info here ???
.............!
There was another post with a number, 718-243-8601 should work. But understand that Transit Museum MEMBERS get first dibs on all their trips. When you call they may or may not know exactly when the trips will occur. Ask them to send you a "Calendar". The trips may be in there along with addition detail.
Disclaimer: I'm not associated with the Transit Museum. But have met many of the very nice people there ... some are SubTalkers.
Mr rt__:^)
Thurston,
All those old numbers are disabled during renovation. The web site has the correct current numbers.
Peace,
ANDEE
were you ever MAD!, that a on coming train wore the label......
...............[ OUT OF SERVICE ] & or ""heading for the yard""
""not in revenue..."" & now you "R" as mad as hell ......??
hell just as you wanted to board the !#@$#$^ train, or bus !!!
........lol.!!!
Yeah, that's my "favorite".........waiting a half hour for the train, you finally get all excited when you see the lights in the distance............and finally.........NOT IN SERVCE...........
I especially like the R46's with two additional "spotlights" on the top center of the train, which displays this.
Yeah. But since I'm not usually in a rush, I enjoy subway trains viewing "Out of Service" or "Not In Service", and have fun watching them pass by Roosevelt Av. station.
Especially when only half a train of 4 R46 cars come trundling down the s/b track at Roosevelt.
Some even have a "G" as the front and back rollsign on the weekends. Pretty cool.
i hear the G gets the most complaints !!!
i hear the G gets the most complaints !!!
Who wouldn't compain about it? :P
TA employees for sure.
i never will forget a 20 car marta train blowing past me at the
west end station!!!
...[ OUT OF SERVICE ]... & on its way to avondale yards !!!
.sheeeeeeeeee______________________!!!
dere' i was STRANDED !!!
I am rarely angry when oncoming trains bear the label "Ej i trafik" ("Not in service").
However, that's because I'm usually driving them.... :-P
Mvh Tim
I am urged to know the situation with Dave as to why he has not been answering feedback or e-mail for quite some time now.
A certain SubTalk handle, "4 Lexington Av Express/Lex Jerome" has been trying to log on, but Dave is not available to approve him.
Updates on Dave would be certainly appreciated.
Thank You.
It is a holiday weekend.... Maybe it will get done later.
Hey... It is summertime...
Which reminds me, I have a whole stack of requests on my own web site that I should handle.
Elias
Which reminds me, I have a whole stack of requests on my own web site that I should handle.
Yay!!! Another fantasy update in the works... :D:D:D
(Plus let me repeat all the sentiments that Dave's doing a great job etc)
Be grateful that we are able to have this forum restored. Dave already said he has moved, and that alone involves tons of headaches, it's amazing he had the time to restore this in the first place.
Give him a chance. I am sure he will get to everyone.
Yeah, and it is a holiday weekend. I'm sure that's all it is........there is life outside of subtalk.......I'm amazed he;s able to handle this site at all.......it's got to take a tremendous amount of time. Be patient, he'll get to it.
I've sent that guy several messages. If he's not getting them it's not my damn fault.
In fact, since you seem to need to butt into it, Pete, here's the mail log:
/var/adm/syslog:May 27 22:24:43 lunapark sm-mta[10219]: [ID 801593 mail.info] g4S2OfDC010217: to=, ctladdr= (10/10), delay=00:00:02, xdelay=00:00:01, mailer=esmtp, pri=90583, relay=mx09.hotmail.com. [64.4.49.71], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (Requested mail action okay, completed)
/var/adm/syslog.1:May 16 16:58:54 lunapark sm-mta[3492]: [ID 801593 mail.info] g4GKwrDC003492: from=, size=1183, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=f179.pav2.hotmail.com [64.4.37.179]
/var/adm/syslog.1:May 16 22:56:08 lunapark sm-mta[8442]: [ID 801593 mail.info] g4H2u5DC008441: to=, ctladdr= (10/10), delay=00:00:02, xdelay=00:00:02, mailer=esmtp, pri=90583, relay=mx07.hotmail.com. [64.4.42.7], dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent (Requested mail action okay, completed)
I thought you ran a bank of Macs, how do you get mailogs. Do you run System X, PPCLinux, or A/UX?
Alicia
Not sure where you got that idea. The Site FAQ clearly details the hardware the site runs on.
This section of site FAQ needs updating...
The site is funded privately by the webmaster. The site is not funded by private contributions from individuals or from any transit agencies. (Some private individuals have made contributions in return for some web hosting space. If you're a webmaster of a New York City or transit-related site in need of space, use the feedback form to talk to me.)
Oh, now I see that you run Sun stuff. Would you be interested in a SparcStation 2? I know it's old, and I don't know how complete it is, but if you can use it let me know. I don't know enough "unix" to boot it up (I'm i86/BSD). A friend of mine has various collection of Sun kit, I might ask him also what he has to spare.
Alicia
You're right, thanks I'll update the page.
Sparc 2? Nah. Throw it away :-) (Seriously, those old machines are not very useful except as very small personal servers.)
Dave:
He has a new e-mail address which I will get back to you on as soon as I can talk to him.
I think the peron you are referring to has already posted here........so he must have gotten his password........
By any chance, did any one get this trip on video? I did, but It didnt come out to well. If any one did could they please post. Thank You.
I have it, and I have yet to view it, but I expect that all 3 plus hours of it came out perfectly well ....
Note to Simon Billis: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!
--Mark
Did the SCUBA gear make a difference ?
Can I pick up a copy in November ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Ha ha ha ha ha ... the SCUBA gear requirement was negated because those redbirds were put back into service ... some of them were scheduled to be out on the 7:23am express out of Flushing, so I heard.
Re: November ... of course!
--Mark
Hey Everybody. What a Great trip. that D-Type was in great shape. But the doors were like guiatienes when they closed. i meet some fellow subtalkers. Sea Beach Fred how did it fell to be on the sea beach on you favorite line. Mark hey whats up pleasure to meet you. keep in touch. it was a pleasure to meet all of you. if any wanna keep in touch my e mail is jasonsbikeshop@juno.com man did that train fly.
Was there a problem with one of the doors on 6095? It seems only one door leaf was open at Franklin Ave. on the shuttle.
dont know but only one was open probabally not to over crowd the train.
Just posted some pictures from the Old Days on the BMT fantrip on Monday, it was a great trip, enjoy!
Old Days on the BMT
Hey, THAT IS ME, WITH THE HAT!
The picture that I am referring to is the first one, and I am standing to the right side of the picture. The trip was great!
Excellent photography. Makes me wish I could have been there.
I noticed you took pictures of a number of recognizable faces. An older gentleman in the motorman's cab; another of an influential member somehwere in CT; ERA members sitting together.
I'd bet MH wished he were operating the train!
Whoa! You managed to get to the railfan window? It surprised me...........
-Stef
Great shots! Sorry I had to miss it, but Green-Wood was doing an honor for Memorial Day, and since my late Grandfather is buried there, and he served in WWII, I couldn't miss it.
I noticed you got plenty of shots at ENY, and a yard full of factory-fresh R143 MU's! It looked like most of the fleet was there, at least 4 trains of cars.
Poor old Jamaica el must have had it's bents bending, with heavyweight D Type, and two trains of R42s on it!! Good shots!!
Thanks for the pictures. Wish I could have been there. The Franklin Avenue Line sure is pretty....
That's me sitting on the platform of the Ave M station in your pictures labeled DSCN0292.jpg and DSCN0293.jpg.
I'm also glad to see I didn't come out in any of the pictures taken at the front of the train :)
--Mark
Avenue M is my "Home" Station, it was good to get some shot of the D-Types breezing by.
Check out some other pictures I have of the Avenue M station taken from a Fatty Arbuckle move from 1933. You can even see a BMT Standard in the station!
Interesting shot of Arbuckle and Co. with the Brighton Line in the background. Although it's hard to see, but is the LIRR Manhattan Beach branch there also ?
Bill "Newkirk"
If it was still there, it would hard to see. This view is looking east on Ave M, the tracks would be on the other side of the station.
-Larry
In your last picture on the "Fatty Arbuckle" page, I used to work on the corner of E 15th St & Elm Ave (Chaap-a-nosh) while going to college.
--Mark
Thanks for sharing ... very nice photos, I enjoyed them !
Mr rt__:^)
Are there any more sites that you know of where I could see more pictures maybe even myself :)
There was that one shot, I am specificaly in search for, where that gentleman took us all railfans' picture with our cameras up in the air, twice at Park Place of Franklin Shuttle. Anyone knows who he was?
Thanks
No more pictures?????? Or maybe no one wants to share.. :(
I would like to thank Notchit for the excellent pictures of the "D" Type Triplex excursion from Memorial Day. I was unable to attend but the photos bring back fond memories of the cars. Also, Mike Hanna is looking real good after all these years. He's like a fine wine, he gets better with age. Thanks again.
ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! The train passed right by my house and I never noticed!
From the mta rumor mill; the N and W will be changing places next pick.N trains will operate opto midnights(weekdays) from 86 st to 36 st .W will run all night to astoria (local along broadway).Good for the W, stinks for the N! What do you think!?
i heard about this about a month ago.everything will be normal except that during late nights and weekends,the W will run over the tunnel instead of the bridge,and just like the W does now on weekends,the N will run between Pacific St and 86th st.this is a very good idea considering that the W will be the only train going to Coney Island come this fall.
Considering that the West End sees nearly DOUBLE the volume of passenger traffic as opposed to the Sea Beach, it's only logical for this switch, that and the Stillwell reconstruction project.
because of the Stillwell reconstruction is the exact reason why they're doing the flip
That should be one out of two reasons for the flip.
When will this service change begin?
- Lyle Goldman
Early September -the same time the Q and the F get cut back to Brighton Beach and Ave X respectively.
This switch and cutback had better be after Labor Day (the "unofficial" end to Summer), lest there be terrible confusion at DeKalb and Atlantic/Pacific.
So the N will run 4th Ave express at night? I'm assuming if that's true it will only be from 36th to Pacific not 59th to Pacific.
No. the "N" will run as local nights, as it does not, only to 36th Street as a shuttle.
someone said it will go to Pacific
> the W will be the only train going to Coney Island come this fall
Where are the F and Q going to terminate?
F will terminate at Ave X and the Q at Brighton Beach.from each station a shuttle bus will go to Coney Island
Next they'll start calling it the S - Sea Beach Shuttle. That really sucks!
Why don't they stop trashing the "N" and make it a decent train to use for a change.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah! I'm sick of W come lately stomping all over the N.
The N has been around way longer than the W.
And for railfanning, I like the Sea Beach better than the West End anyday. The Sea Beach is faster and has those neat little tunnels, while the West End is just a slow Hippo crawl.
Solution to slow hippo crawl: SEND SOME SLANT R40 to the "W". :o)
wayne
Then we'd have to come up with a whole new set of nicknames for the W.:-)
"Pootie-poot" comes to mind. :)
That will probably happen. The W will need more cars for its expanded hours. Now why the TA wants to confuse commuters and tourists alike by havin the W run express over the bridge some days and local through the tunnel others is beyond me. (I know about the ridership figures for the N and W.)
That's why I believe the N should get bridge on weekdays and W local through tunnel all the time. This way, there wont be any differences in routes from weekdays and weekends. The N should then keep its stock because I also would believe that since the N would get bridge, it would also get a lot more riders.
The reason the Sea Beach gets the shaft as opposed to the West End is because the Sea Beach has many fewer passengers than the West End. Swapping them would be screwing the majority to serve the minority. The West End has more stops than the Sea Beach and serves more original territory. In the case of the Sea Beach, once it clears the 4th Avenue line, it's already close to the West End, when it becomes far from the West End, it's close to the Culver and eventually close to the West End again.
The N has been around way longer than the W.
Untrue.
The Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island Railroad began service in 1864, reaching Coney Island in 1867.
The New York and Sea Beach Railroad began service on July 18, 1877, and made its way to Coney Island on July 17, 1879.
If you want to talk about the letter N existing to denote a service for longer than the letter W, then you are certainly correct, but whatever you call a train is irrelevant. The West End Line as it stands is a more important line than the Sea Beach, and that will remain the case for the foreseeable future.
When the lines were converted to subway service in 1913, the Sea Beach was done first because it is the more direct route to Coney Island. Back then, there was practically nothing along the way. Today, the opposite is nearly true and the West End happens to serve more original territory than the Sea Beach.
You may consider the Sea Beach line to be more entertaining than the West End line, an opinion with which I concur, but the subway does not now and has never existed as an amusement venue, it's functioning as such for some people is merely a positive externality.
When the lines were converted to subway service in 1913, the Sea Beach was done first because it is the more direct route to Coney Island.
Exactly. The Sea Beach Line's entire point is as a bloody fast way to Coney Island. That's why it should be an express, via the Bridge to Broadway. As a local, it fails to serve this purpose and, quite frankly, it's only other purpose is being a very nice ride. As a shuttle it can only get worse. There are echoes of the Culver Shuttle about this one, I fear.
Coney Island itself isn't a very busy station. It's not worth worrying too much about it. Many more people use the intermediate stops on both the N and the W; service should be optimized for their use, whatever that means.
Currently the W doesn't run into Manhattan nights and weekends; with the N, R (daytime only), and Q already continuing to Manhattan from Atlantic-Pacific, the W would be superfluous. Since the W is the only line that will reach Coney Island as of September, the W will take the place of the N in Manhattan and Queens. The W will be the quickest way to Coney Island because it will be the only way to Coney Island. Weekdays, both the N and the W will continue to serve Manhattan, as they do now.
I fear too. My Sea Beach a shuttle? What next? I am starting to get a little hot under the collar right about now.
And this aint good news for the flourishing asian communities along the Sea Beach line.
When you get a train of R-68As, they're faster than the R-68s and they're generally quiet inside. I to prefer the old "N" over the current "W". I hope that when they're finished with the project on the Manhattan Bridge that the "N" is returned to its former express status.
#3 West End Jeff
So do I. So does Fred.
Right Stevereno. Right on the mark.
When SB Fred (where is he anyway?) ever hears this, I think he's going to have an aneurysm or a heart attack. (10-1 straight on the aneurysm, place yer bets!!) Trust me, once it starts, we'll never hear the end of it from ole Fred until the next change...
Don't worry, he has:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=335030
so dont shoot the N on video anymore ??
Why not do this insted for Weekend service:
N- no Weekend Service, replaced by J
W- local Astoria to Canal, bridge, 4th avenue express, west end to CI
J- continues via Montague tunnel local to Coney Island via Sea Beach.
This way, the W remains as an express train to Manhattan from Coney Island. Lower Manhattan and 4th avenue local replaced by the J.
And what's the point of running Nassau St. service to CI? J doesn't serve the Bway stops south of Canal.
No, it doesn't. But it allows another connection from 4th avenue to Lower Manhattan. And W passengers could take either the R or the J. The # of passengers wanting to go to Lower Manhattan on the N/W in my guess are less than the # wanting the express service from Manhattan.
Of course, just extending the W to 57th/7th on Weekends is the best answer, but the TA seems to not want to do that. This would add less service but I think solve part of the problem.
bad idea,and it wouldnt work at all.when the MTA plans something they take a whole bunch of factors into consideration like trains avaliable and all that.so forget it.
Why wouldn't the trains be available? They don't run the Z or M on Weekends, so there should be plenty of trains available.
ok not just trains but also crews.there's lots of stuff to consider when making service changes.sometimes im dumb not to even think it like that,but its the truth.
Because the Sea Beach route is for the Sea Beach. What is it about that that you do not understand? You're entitled to parley a plan and I have the right to shoot it down. The Sea Beach has been screwed enough. Put it on the bridge, make it an express again and ridership will increase.
Put it on the bridge, make it an express again and ridership will increase.
Precisely.
Would you rather the Sea Beach dead end to Pacific, or at least continue into Lower Manhattan? As I said in my last post, the best answer is just to extend the W to 57th/7th, but the TA doesn't seem to like that idea.
Sorry, Fred, but the West End Line gets more riders and will be the only one going to CI. So it deserves the better route. My plan I think is better than the MTAs one for both the West End and the Sea Beach. I agree your N should be back on the Bridge in 2004, but that won't happen and shouldn't happen until then. The West End and Brighton Lines get more passengers and therefore should get Bridge priority, as they do.
Brian, the fear most Sea Beach enthusiasts share is that once something is undertaken it seems to take on a life of its own. The Sea Beach went from an express to a local, was taken off the bridge, was re-routed from Coney Island. The latter might have been a necessity but the others sure weren't. Since ridership seems to be a priority, it would seem the more riders you have the more local the train should be since more are disembarking at different stations. An express train can be used by those who get off at certain places where the traffic is heavy. That thought means the Sea Beach would be better off as an express to serve a smaller contingent of people. My take, however, is that ridership would rise if the train was an express and went over the bridge. That would make the trip less lengthy and would get the people getting to the place they're going that much faster.
Interesting idea, Fred. How about maintaining the local service with an ADDED express, running south from Brighton Beach (or better, Sheepshead Bay) in the morning, then up the Sea Beach line and over the bridge in the morning, and running reverse at night?
If they only use ONE express track, northbound in the morning rush hour and southbound in the evening (the other seems to be abandoned), there's room to add an express platform at the Bay Parkway and New Utrecht stations. Both are very crowded with people commuting to Manhattan.
Cheers!
Your idea has merit too. The point is, there is a way to make this work without always having to screw my Sea Beach.
Fred: You just coined a new nickname for the 86 Street and Back Line.
We can call it the Screw Beach.
And whats all this talk about the rat infested Montague Street Tunnel.
Don't you know that those rodents are really underground squirrels.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey Redbird, on one excursion on a Sea Beach train (what else would it be for the "big guy"), I saw a big rodent scurry across the tracks just in front of the train. Man, it was BIG. I thought I saw two others a short time later in the lower Manhattan tunnel. From that time on my description of the Montague took on its name. And I hate it that my train has to traverse it rather than ramble over the picturesque Manny B. Question answered.
How would you feel, Fred, if the Sea Beach went over the North Side of the Manny B come 2004?
I would love it just fine. That's where it ran when I was a youngster in New York. I just want it on the Manhattan Bridge and out of the vermin infested Montague Tunnel in lower dingy Manhattan.
That's where it ran when I rode on it for the first time in 1965. I agree with Fred: the N belongs on the bridge. And if they could keep even a few R-32 trainsets on it, that would be even better.
If they only use ONE express track, northbound in the morning rush hour and southbound in the evening (the other seems to be abandoned), there's room to add an express platform at the Bay Parkway and New Utrecht stations.
New Utrecht is not that full. Fort Hamilton, Bay Parkway, Kings Highway, and 18th Avenue seem to be quite busy, but that'd be too many express stops. I do understand why if such a plan was implemented, that New Utrecht should be an express stop.
This is a repeat of a year-old discussion. The proposal was knocked down in this post. There is no reason to double service at any of the Sea Beach stations.
It wasn't knocked down, not by a long shot --- you simply dismissed the idea in your post entirely, using a justification that is sixty years old... dating to the Unification plan and our Socialist mayor.
The result was a major downsizing of a great public transportation system, the rise of the Almighty Automobile, and gridlock. Second Avenue Line down, Third Avenue Line down --- on and on and who won? Not businesses, not commuters, not the taxpayer, not even tourists. The only winners were absentee landlords, who were able to use the big boost in land values along the downsized lines to engage in speculation.
It's time to ask the question whether continuing a public investment that benefits only a relatively small amount of people is worthwhile, and whether INCREASING that investment is a worthwhile risk. I think that things are so bad these days for drivers, that a well-timed investment in the public infrastructure could lure people back to the Subway.
Huh? What are you talking about? I didn't write the post I referred to (and my response was only an inquiry as to where the numbers came from), and the justification is 2.5 years old (1.5 at the time) -- passenger counts from 1999. Nobody ever suggested eliminating the line, only not introducing additional express service on it. If the funding is available to increase service somewhere, it should be somewhere with greater ridership numbers than those!
The only winners were absentee landlords, who were able to use the big boost in land values along the downsized lines to engage in speculation.
Since higher-valued property leads to a higher property tax assessment, the city benefited from higher tax revenue at lower expense.
I think that things are so bad these days for drivers, that a well-timed investment in the public infrastructure could lure people back to the Subway.
People are already riding the subway, there is nobody to be brought back. New lines can increase ridership, but Sea Beach express service does nothing.
The valley of the Sea Beach is saturated with buildings, there are no longer any empty lots, the only way to increase the population is to increase the zoned density and
The only winners were absentee landlords, who were able to use the big boost in land values along the downsized lines to engage in speculation.
Since higher-valued property leads to a higher property tax assessment, the city benefited from higher tax revenue at lower expense.
I think that things are so bad these days for drivers, that a well-timed investment in the public infrastructure could lure people back to the Subway.
People are already riding the subway, there is nobody to be brought back. New lines can increase ridership, but Sea Beach express service does nothing.
The valley of the Sea Beach is saturated with buildings, there are no longer any empty lots, the only way to increase the population is to increase the zoned density and demolish what's there. Bus feeding will do nothing to the Brighton line since all areas not served by the subway are east of the Brighton Line, making that the useful line for intermodal commuters. The fact is, that if els were removed on account of low ridership, then it was a good decision. In the case of Manhattan, the bad decision was not their removal, but their removal before replacement.
You have to admit Dave, it was a hell of a discussion. A whole bunch of us really got into it. You did notice that no one disputed my point that Al Gore was a dummie compared to Bush, and that my pal Bob couldn't even spell QUAYLE. Was does that tell you about my Democrat pal? How did you retrieve that post?
My take, however, is that ridership would rise if the train was an express and went over the bridge.
I completely agree with you.
Well N Train, at least there are a half-dozen of us to seem to know up from back. We'll get the rest of them to fall in line.
Fred: Face facts. The Sea Beach doesn't even go the the sea anymore, much less the beach. It terminates at 86 Street. Maybe we should call it the 86 Street Line. Then you could be #86 Street Fred.
Glad to hear that you had such a good time this weekend. It was great to meet you on the Redbird trip.
Larry,RedbirdR33
86th Fred. Do you know what is means when something is 86th? It means you're history, and I'm determined to prove that it not that time for me just yet.
Lest we forget Agent 86 himself, Maxwell Smart.:-)
Besides, "86th Fred" just doesn't have the same ring as "Sea Beach Fred". "Brooklyn Dodgers" had a nice ring to it, too.
You gave me the handle Sea Beach Fred and that is the way it will stay. 86 is for Maxwell Smart, wherever the hell he is at now.
Well, IIRC I dubbed you "Mr. Sea Beach" and you took it from there. I think I nay have suggested adding the #4 to your handle.
I believe you did Steve. I became Sea Beach Man, then Sea Beach Fred, and you told me to go all the way and add the number that was once used for the line. I did and know, well, you know the rest. I might have told you this before, but when I was a kid #4 was my favorite number because not only the Sea Beach carried it, but Duke Snider wore that numeral when he played for the Brooklyn Dodgers. Today my favorite number is #44, which I wore on my uniform during my last 20 years as a baseball coach. My baseball room is loaded with a bunch of 44's.
Well the reduction of N service is understandable and doable. However, the W being moved to the tunnel/local is not going to happen.
Standard "Hub & Spoke" planning. Reducing costs at the expense of the passenger's time, which is spent in layovers (like 36th Street). There are no more direct flights or Subway trains to most destinations, but what flights and trains remain are usually packed full, even at night.
Good? Bad? You decide. What's your time worth?
This time it’s not bribery, it’s priming the pump.
Before we start today’s exciting episode, I want to take this opportunity to encourage all of you to pause for a moment to recall those who have paid the ultimate price in defending your freedom on this Memorial Day. You should also remember the Firefighters and Police Officers who have also made the ultimate sacrifice in their service to the public. Pull out Old Glory this day and fly her proudly in remembrance of those who died in the service of our country and communities.
Back in my Wisconsin Central days quite a few of our assignments were required to operate over CSX trackage as part of our normal journey. All of the trains involved used the Altenheim Sub with some using the Blue Island Sub as well. The Altenheim extended between Madison Street in Forrest Park to Rockwell on Chicago’s West Side. This is the line that parallels I-290 (Eisenhower Expressway) on the south side of the interstate and just south of the CTA line on Chicago’s West Side and Near West Suburbs. Madison was where the line ownership changed and Wisconsin Central took over. WC owned the track west of Madison and CSX owned it to the east.
At one time the Altenheim, part of CSX predecessor Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal, was also a joint line with the Chicago Great Western until they merged into the Chicago & Northwestern. CNW abandoned the CGW line as it was deemed redundant track. The old tower where the Great Western joined the Altenheim was still standing while I was with the WC although the CGW proper was long gone west of the junction with part of it now the serving as the CTA right of way.
The Altenheim Sub double track ended at Rockwell converging into a single track wye (often referred to simply as the single track by some Dispatchers) that turned due south. The Blue Island Sub began at the south end of the single track wye at 14th Street where double track began again and extended down to Barr Yard. There was a connection to the CNW at Rockwell and once upon a time, a connection to the Panhandle line of the Pennsylvania Railroad here as well when it ran through here. This entire area around Rockwell had undergone quite the reconfiguration over the years owing to mergers, changing traffic patterns and the rail industry’s exit of intercity passenger service which was conveyed to the newly created Amtrak.
Being that the Altenheim and Blue Island Subs were owned and operated by CSX, their operating rules and timetable were in effect. All WC employees had to be qualified on CSX rules. This was in the days before the Chicago Operating Rules Association (CORA) was formed and there was no CORA book. We were given a CSX rules exam administered by WC managers with the scores relayed to CSX who entered them into their data base. With no such thing as the CORA book at this time we were also required to carry CSX operating rulebooks and employee timetables while operating on their property.
In those days the WC was rather lax on rules enforcement. You had to be really, really bad (or violate Rule G, the drug and alcohol rule) to get into serious trouble on the WC. CSX however, was not as lenient. When you did something wrong on CSX property, you were in some sort of trouble irregardless if you were employed by a foreign line operating on their property or a CSX employee.
In those early days, especially in the immediate post start up days when there was a great deal of confusion and also animosity towards WC employees by other railroads, there were a few situations that got some WC people into trouble. In one case, the Conductor of a train that was exiting the Belt Railway of Chicago main line and entering the CSX Altenheim Sub managed to screw up big time. There were two telephones at the connection at 14th Street in Chicago. One for was for contacting the Belt Dispatcher located at Clearing Yard and the other for contacting the CSX Dispatcher at Barr Yard.
Before I go any further I should explain these were not your standard telephones connected the Illinois Bell network. These were referred to as Dispatcher’s phones, track phones, wayside phones or open phone lines. You did not pick up and dial a number to call the Dispatcher. You picked up, listened to make sure nobody was speaking and then called out the name of the station where you were located. In this case you said "14th Street." When the Dispatcher could take your call he simply acknowledged and responded "14th Street" meaning it was your turn to talk to him. You then identified yourself and your train and made your request. It might go like this.
Conductor: "14th Street."
Dispatcher: "14th."
Conductor: "This is Conductor Jones on the Wisconsin Central 6527."
D: "What do you need WC 6527?"
C: "We’d like permission to enter your railroad at 14th Street."
D: "Okay, WC 6527 has permission to enter and use the wye from 14th Street to 48th Avenue, crossover from the wye to track one lining back all the switches; proceed west on one and report clear of my railroad at Madison."
C: "I understand WC 6527 has permission to enter and use the wye 14th Street to 48th Avenue, crossing over at 48th Ave to track one lining all the switches back, west on one to Madison and reporting clear of your railroad at Madison."
D: "That is correct."
You then went about taking care of this task and reported clear when finished as instructed. Sound fairly uncomplicated, right? Well believe it or not, where there is a will, there is a way to screw it up.
For those of you that are not familiar with Chicago area railroading, let me clarify the geography a bit. The 14th Street where the Belt connects to CSX is not the same location as the 14th Street where the Blue Island Sub becomes double track. This Belt/CSX connection is several miles west of the previously mentioned CSX route. The Belt main line passes over the Altenheim just east of 48th Avenue and the connection between the two lines there. The street below the rail lines is known as Cicero Avenue, which is the 4800 block west of the east-west dividing point in downtown Chicago.
On the evening in question, the Conductor somehow used the wrong phone and called the wrong Dispatcher. Instead of calling the CSX Dispatcher for permission to enter the Altenheim Sub, he called the Belt Dispatcher instead. And somehow in this confusion the Belt Dispatcher gave the WC to enter HIS railroad, not the CSX line. The WC Conductor misconstrued these instructions and entered the Altenheim Sub and prepared to proceed west. Before doing so, he called the CSX Dispatcher to inform him the switches at 48th Avenue had been restored normal and locked. This was how he got busted. The crew was taken off the train.
When all was said and done, the Conductor had to attend a CSX rules class at Barr Yard conducted by a CSX officer. He was then allowed to return to work. Even after a WC Trainmaster went up and very clearly marked the phones, this guy promptly committed the very same offense less than a week later and was dismissed for his mistake.
Episodes like this made most of the CSX Dispatchers very wary of WC crews in those early days. They pretty much made us call from about everywhere, even if there really was no need to stop. Maybe they figured if they made our lives too miserable, we would go away. Well, we didn’t.
Stopping and calling at the trackside phone boxes was a huge pain. These phones were on booths made of concrete, sort of like bunkers. The acoustics in them was terrible making it hard to hear the conversation on the phone. Some of these Dispatches would make our Conductors stand there and wait for what seemed to be ever until they answered. Then they would give us permission to proceed from this point, say Brighton Park to 14th Street and call again. More often than not, there was not another train for us to wait on to crossover in front of us or anything they just seemed to delight in making our lives miserable. And then screw ups like I describe earlier didn’t help our cause.
Most of the CSX Dispatchers didn’t want to talk with us on the radio in those early days of the WC even when we did have the CSX channels available to use. We were required to either go to one of the wayside phone boxes or use a regular telephone. The WC gave us cell phones to use in those days to make life easier. Also because we didn’t have the new 97 channel radios on most of our locomotives either.
Sometime later, CSX introduced an open phone line system that could be accessed with a regular telephone. You simply dialed the access number and it opened the Dispatcher phone line to you. The same procedure as outlined above was then used to contact the Dispatcher. This made it a little more convenient as we did not have to stop the train and have the Conductor get off and walk to a phone box and stand there waiting in the cold. That is of course, if the batteries on the cell phone were not dead.
As our locomotives were becoming equipped with the 97 model radios, we were able to get away from having to stop and use the phones. Needless to say, this improved our performance times across the Chicago Terminal as we no longer needed to stop and make the phone calls. We also seemed to gain a little respect to as now the Dispatchers could contact us at anytime, not just when we stopped to make a required phone call.
There was one CSX Dispatcher that did not want to talk to us on the radio. In fairness to him, I will not disclose his name. We were not alone though. He was like this with crews from other railroads too. He gave Illinois Central crews a difficult time as well and IC crews dubbed him "the dragon." This fellow had his own particular way of doing things and not only expected, but demanded you follow his procedures as well. If you didn’t well, there was hell to pay. He would not hesitate to yell at you and then as punishment, make you sit and wait while holding that phone next to your ear. Yours truly was included in those who got yelled at for not living up to the letter of his law.
An episode occurred where a WC crew called him on the cell phone into the open line and he told them they had to wait to meet one at Rockwell before they could head around the wye and come south. When the Conductor placed the handset back in the cradle he failed to disconnect the call. Both he and the Engineer began a ruthless attack of this Dispatcher using all sorts of names I won’t repeat here. Their little tirade went on for quite some time. Unbeknownst to them, the very person they were talking about could hear everything they said about him. So could anybody else on the open phone line. And so could the constantly running tape recorder. After several minutes of their commentary, the Dispatcher called the WC Trainmaster at Schiller Park and told him to contact his crew at Rockwell and tell them to hang up their phone. He told the Trainmaster of their commentary on him and how they could be brought up on several rule violations. He didn’t pursue this avenue though, but the crew did hear about their actions. Maybe his lack of reprisal was actually a sign that he was not as bad as they thought.
My regular runs the last few years with the WC had me using CSX daily and dealing with this guy every other day. He was off on Sundays and Mondays, so we began to look forward to those days when the swing man covered. He was much more relaxed on the procedures and allowed us to use the radio.
So one year, 1990 to be exact, as the Holiday Season approached, I decided to do something about our CSX nemesis. No, I wasn’t planning on going postal and shooting up the Barr Yard Dispatcher’s office, but had something up my sleeve. A course of action needed to be taken to try to amend this situation. Yes, it pays to be a schemer.
I knew we would be coming in to the Chicago area around New Year’s to visit with family and friends, so I decided to arrange a meeting with the so-called dragon. I called this fellow on the Bell phone so as not to have the entire railroad hear my plan. Couldn’t tip anybody off now, could I? I told him who I was when he answered asked him if he had a moment and proceeded to explain my idea for a meeting. I questioned him as to whether he would be working New Year’s Day. He told me he would be and I asked if it would be alright if I stopped by to meet him and see their facilities. Told him it would be "good to meet the face behind the voice." He thought it would be a great idea and welcomed the gesture. The plan was now in motion.
New Year’s Day 1991 roles around and the beautiful bride and I are back in Chicago doing our visiting. I called the dragon to make sure it was still okay to stop around. He said to come on by so I made the trip over to Barr Yard, but I wasn’t alone. I brought along a plate of homemade cookies from the beautiful bride’s kitchen. Her cooking and baking expertise is one of the reasons I gained weight after getting married.
The dragon and I met at the door and did the customary introductions. I then handed him the plate of cookies and wished him a happy New Year. He seemed greatly appreciative of the gesture. Upon sampling the wares, he was most certainly appreciative. He showed me around the facilities and I got to see first hand, the nuttiness of his job. Even though it was a holiday and train schedules were greatly diminished, it seemed like the phone rang constantly or there was somebody on the open line.
Their record of train movements was not kept in the computer, but was instead kept on a rather huge train sheet. The sheet extended well over either side of the desk at which he worked. He simply slid the sheet back and forth across the desk to add something to the remarks or to O/S (on sheet) a train. He was fairly busy for a slow day. It demonstrated how busy he could easily be on a normal day. It gave me a very concise understanding of and respect for the mad house he dealt with on a daily basis.
In between the goings on of dispatching the Chicago Terminal which extended from Curtis in Gary, IN to Madison Street in Forrest Park along with branches to Whiting, IN and Chicago Heights, IL, we chatted about various topics. Some of these included railroading and some didn’t. I got to hear about his bitter divorce and games his ex was playing over visitation rights and the like. Having had several friends in that predicament over the years, I was fully aware of his situation. I guess he needed somebody to vent his frustrations upon and I gladly accepted the role.
After spending several hours with him there, it was time for me to depart. We bid our adieus and I headed out. This little visit made us friends. It would also pay great dividends in the future.
When I returned to work a few days later, I told Dave Soesbe my Conductor of the visit and how well we hit it off. I also mentioned the little gift of homemade cookies I brought along as well and Dave laughed. He was quite familiar with the culinary delights of the beautiful bride as I frequently shared some of her cooked and baked goods with him.
Our first trip back to Fond du Lac from Chicago demonstrated the new found friendship between this Dispatcher and me. When we went on duty at Markham, we called in our mark up (crew, on duty time, engines and loading) to the CSX Dispatcher on the open line. He told me to give him a call "on the radio" when we got to Rockwell. Quite the switch in attitude already. I liked it.
My assignment used to come out of the IC at Markham, operate via CNW’s Global One facility (the former Wood Street Yard) and accessed CSX at Rockwell at the west end of Global. Normally, the Yardmaster at Global One would not let us out of whatever track we were using to run through the facility until CSX said they could take us. He didn’t want us in the way if CSX couldn’t or wouldn’t handle us and understandably so. Normally we would have to get out the cell phone and call in on the open line, but today would be different.
I dialed up channel 14-14 on the radio and depressed the "1" digit on the keypad to ring up the CSX Dispatcher. I got the acknowledgement tone back and then patiently waited for his response. A few moments later comes "CSX Chicago Dispatcher over." I then called him and awaited his answer. He greeted me by name and offered the following instructions;
"Okay to come out onto the single track Joe, west on one, watch out for my Y110 who’s out there somewhere and call clear at Madison, over."
With this both Dave and I picked our teeth up from the floor. Normally, if he let us out, he would tell us to hold up someplace and wait for Y110 (the CSX local that worked industries up in this area) to report clear. The line was protected by automatic block signals and yard limits were in effect which required us to be on the lookout for such moves, but the usual procedure with him was to make us wait. And sometimes we waited for quite a while. I repeated these instructions back to him and with his "OK" also got "Ya, 110 is out there someplace, just make sure you don’t run into him." I happily responded that we wouldn’t and screw up his day. And not only that, we were now on a first name basis on the radio. I guess I had arrived.
It was high five time in the cab of that engine. We complied with all the instructions, didn’t crash into Y110 and reported clear via Motorola instead of the cell phone. Wow, just like professionals. Could it have been those delicious homemade cookies?
This preferred treatment only extended to the job I was working. The two other sides of the Shops Yard-IC Markham assignment did not receive such fine treatment. The conversation and cookies obviously played a huge role. I knew I didn’t just marry the beautiful bride for her stunning beauty, intelligence (if you discount the fact she married a railroader) and great personality.
When the Division Manager learned of the preferred treatment Dave and I were getting, he commented to the effect that he heard I had bribed this guy or something. I told him bribery is such an ugly word. I explained to him that I had merely "primed the pump." I met with this Dispatcher on his turf and we developed a respect for each other.
On one occasion after our preferred treatment had become well established, he had gotten into it with a Norfolk Southern crew that used the Barr Yard Sub between State Line Tower at Hammond and Clark Junction in Gary to reach the former Wabash line referred to these days as the "Sugar" line. (This nickname comes from the fact there is only one customer on the line, Indiana Sugars). It seems the crew did not report in the clear of the Barr Sub and now wanted to come back out and head west towards State Line. He tore into this NS guy big time for failing to do as instructed. Even though the guy had committed the error, after the butt chewing he got, I actually felt a little sorry for him. Then it was my turn. I call him and he answers me all friendly like with a smile in his voice. It must’ve been the cookies.
Since I hired on at the IC, every year at Christmas time, I take a load of homemade cookies over to Network Operations and present them to the Dispatchers and Callers. They certainly do appreciate the thought and can usually manage to snarf them all down in a matter of minutes. It is akin to a bunch of sharks in a feeding frenzy. Not a cookie goes uneaten.
This past Christmas season was no exception. I stopped by on my way to work one morning about a week or so before Christmas and dropped of the goodies. As luck would have it that day, we had clear signals all the way from Markham to Champaign. Once we left Markham, we were non-stop. As we closed in on Leverett Junction at the north end of Champaign Yard, Desk Two (Chicago South) Dispatcher John Childs called me and told me next time I should bring in some steaks and see what I get in return.
Yes, just some friends and fellow railroaders sharing in the beautiful bride’s baked goods. How could anyone demean this act and those cookies and call it bribery?
And so it goes.
Tuch
Although there was a late start with the train, I had such a good time. Plenty of photographs taken at the shuttle, East New York, and on the Jamaica EL. And WOW did that D-Type fly on the Brighton Express. By the way did anyone know that we caused a fire on the Frankin Av Shuttle?
>>By the way did anyone know that we caused a fire on the Frankin Av Shuttle?<<
Yeah, probably when we were on that layup track against the wall in front of those R-68's. In between the first and second round trip on the shuttle we let a couple of shuttles make their normal; runs before we would tie things up again.
The fire probably started when the D types were parked there and shot out a few sparks. There was a lot of trash there. I saw the fire when we left but it probably burned itself out.
Bill "Newkirk"
Peggy asked me to post this:
She saw the fire and told the conductor who called it in to Control. FDNY was called and Manhattan Q Train ran Expressa from Kings Hwy to prospect Park due to the fire.
>>FDNY was called and Manhattan Q Train ran Expressa from Kings Hwy to prospect Park due to the fire<<
So that's why there was a northbound (Q) on the express track at Kings Hwy with passengers. Shame on those naughty D Types for starting a camp fire !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Its kinda weird but the Brooklyn Communications office for the FDNY is at Prospect Station on the Q and Shuttle. Right where we were. They got the call just as our 'D-Type' train raced past Ave 'M' on the Brighton
THAT explains why I was able to get a runby of a Q Express heading northbound right after I got the D-Type runby heading southbound. Thanks.
--Mark
Yes, it was the D-Types that caused it, but it was out by the time the fire dept arrived ... i.e. was no big deal.
Mr rt__:^)
I have to say that the volunteers at NYC Transit who arranged and conducted this trip, and the Sunday Redbird trip, did a stellar job. If any of you read this, I sincerely thank you for a job well done.
The Franklin Ave shuttle is definitely NOT equipped to handle a third train. When the D-Types made its two round trips on it, boy did we hold up service a good 15 minutes. While it ran on the shuttle, however, it did pick up passengers as a revenue service train, and the looks on their faces was, of course, priceless.
The full speed runby on the Brighton Express I took from Ave M was fabulous!
I must also say that if you didn't stay for the end of the trip, you did not witness Sea Beach Fred getting the thrill of his life, probably better than the Cyclone. We ran from 59th St to Coney Island Yard via the Sea Beach middle track, running as a true Sea Beach Express. I am still washing away Fred's foam from that part of the trip. The train swayed back and forth so much under one of the overpasses south of New Utrecht Ave (I'd have to reply my video to determine which one) we actually bounced off the wall.
If you haven't been out to Canarsie yet, I suggest you get your photographs of the East NY / Atlantic Ave stations very soon. It'll all look different in no time.
And do so even faster at Coney Island, because on September 9th, Stillwell Ave closes to all service excepr the W.
--Mark
I hope the train didn't hurt the bridge as it bounced off.:-)
I'll have to go back, but I'm pretty sure both D-Type and Bridge didn't suffer any serious injuries! AT least this time we didn't lose any door indicator lights in the Brighton Line tunnel under Prospect Park ... that usually happens everytime we go through there with the D-Types ... not this time because we went REAL slow.
--Mark
All I can say is woe to anyone or anything that gets in the way of a Triplex!
Uh...sorry to break it to you.....WE DID! lol
-Mark
Cute, very cute.
"While it ran on the shuttle, however, it did pick up passengers as a revenue service train, and the looks on their faces was, of course, priceless. "
You mean some regular fare paying riders got to ride the train?? Oh man if I knew that I would've rode the Franklin shuttle.
Yes, that is correct. Regular fare paying riders got to ride the D-Types on one round trip run on the shuttle.
--Mark
Mark's right, I was in 7th Heaven. Boy did it bring back some pleasant memories from long ago. You know I never rode a Triplex on the middle tracks as a kid, but I did liken our Monday ride with how I remember the D's rambling down 4th Avenue prior to entering 59th Street. It was a great day. And you have one today, too, Mark.
You, too, Fred - glad you got back OK. You left us early in CI Shop though - we never did get to go to Nathan's for dinner ....
--Mark
Sorry about that Mark. I looked at my watch and eeee gads, it was five to eight. I completely lost track of time. I was to call my wife at Six, Pacific time but I could have stayed. The damn F train took so long to get to the station that by the time I got back to my hotel in Manhattan and called, my wife had already left. Other than that it was a great day. And I look forward to maybe hitting the rails with you this coming October.
I'm sure you've told Linda every juicy detail by now.:-)
Steve, about the train, yes. As far as any juicy details are concerned I'm not exactly a man-on-the-town. I got back to my hotel, had dinner, took a walk, then watched some baseball and basketball. I am completely domesticated, and, fortunately, my wife trusts me and knows a playboy I am not. To some it sounds like its pretty dull but for me it is just right.
I apologize for my choice of words. In no way was I implying you were a playboy.
Did you get to go to Shea at all? BTW, Piazza came through big time last night. Hit a whale of a dinger to win it for the Amazins.
Steve, I was so damn busy that I never had time to get to Shea. But I had so much fun railfanning and meeting the guys that I hardly noticed. As far as the Mets are concerned, we need a winning streak, and Vaughn, Alomar and Burnitz have got to start doing more offensively or we'll be looking at the Braves' back again.
Nice pictures. Sorry I didn't meet you on the trip(or Sea Beach Fred or Mark Feinman or several others). Next time I'm gonna wear a name tag!
Not a bad Idea. Dont feel so bad. I met no one from 'SubTalk' either
I was thinking the same. For the next trip, we should have Subtalk nametags.
Don't know what is a matter with you guys, SubTalkers/railfans are so EASY to spot < G > I've met dozens in the past several years, many have become dear friends.
Mr rt__:^)
On a train full of railfans, am I expected to go up to everyone and ask "Are you a SubTalker?" Nametags don't hurt, do they? At least I don't have to ask everyone (although asking non-STers means I might bring them on board).
"... am I expected to go up to everyone and ask "Are you a SubTalker?"
Why not ... if they give you a look like you have two heads, quickly change the subject, but if they say yes you've put a face with another name. AND if they say "what's that ?" bring them onboard !
SubTalk Power, push that Controller into full parallel !
Mr rt__:^)
There is no reason why you cant make your own name tag.
Perhaps someone here might even make nametags and distribute them to friends.
You could also make a banner and display it on the departure platform and or in one of the cars where you might set up a headquarters.
Elias
That would really come in handy this October. Perhaps a Subtalk banner could be displayed at our meeting spot.
"That would really come in handy this October. "
OK, now somebody needs to clue me in on this October shindig...
I was planing my vacation (and journey back east) for the end of September, but since I have not really set any plans other than "Not in the Summer", perhaps I can plan a vacation around this trip.
Thanks, Elias
A number of us will be in the city during the weekend of October 12 and are planning to do some serious railfanning on Sunday the 13th, although momentum seems to be building for an excursion to Branford. I'm flying in on the 12th. Some of us will be around the following week, myself included, so additional railfanning is not out of the question. We'd love to have you join us.
"... Sunday the 13th, although momentum seems to be building for an excursion to Branford ..."
Gee, want to do a "charter" ? We do birthdays, retirements, movie shoots, etc. They all help pay the bills so no reasonable offer refused. Talk to one of us off-line & we'll tell the details/restrictions.
Mr rt__:^)
Oh you kid!!!
Keep in mind that Columbus day is Monday the 14th, many people are off, and everything runs on a full weekday schedule. So you may have the luxury of additional time.
Let's look at Branford on the 13th and an organized trip in the City on Columbus Day the 14th. See post 335914 and post 335895 for more thoughts on the matter.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also check Post 335925 for my comments.
:-) Sparky
I had a sign for the SubTalk trip in DC but never needed to use it...
If people are up to wanting nametags next time, we can do it. Otherwise, we won't.
I remember one of my first "Field Trips" in 1999 where I met Lou from Brooklyn. He had made name tags for everyone, but the group decided against using them.
Some don't want all the customer's asking "why are you the FaxMan ?" ... "what kind of name is Anou-e-mouse ?"
Mr rt__:^)
Do you think we can harness this SubTalk power for the forces of good?
If not, I'm willing to settle for evil.
Oops, I meant to say "nice pictures" to Notchit (although I'm sure the ones you took must have turned out great, too :-)
Here's some new photos (well, not new, but not been seen before) of the WTC recovery effort, including the PATH. Start on this page and keep going.
http://www.septembereleven.net/page139.htm
Thanks for posting that, Dave.
Excellent pictures. It's hard to believe how intact some parts of the PATH station were - especially that bar, unbroken bottles and all.
I know this one photo doesn't have to do with trains, but it really touched me, so i thought I'd post the link, truly amazing:
http://www.septembereleven.net/page141.htm
Interesting indeed.
Now this is a truly amazing photo at Cortlandt Street. It just boggles my mind.
www.septembereleven.net/page171.htm
I'd never thought the platform level could ever see daylight. CNN News said it will be open in Dec. of this year.
Yeah, and checkout the one right after it!
Wow. Didn't notice that at first. The effects of the destruction were great, nonetheless only the towers were hit. All of the buildings in the WTC complex are either collapsed or damaged. It damaged other buildings as well.
If the community were to build a replica of the former WTC complex (including a memorial), that would even be truly amazing.
There is an incredibly simple explanation for this.
You don't think somebody, stuck in the tower right before the collapse wouldn't have opened his/her bible to the page about the Tower of Babel? Only fitting.
Now there goes my assessment, with my lack of belief or faith in anything remotely "supernatural."
This is true, but wouldn't it close before it fell many stories if someone was reading it? I wasn't really thinking it was some sort of religious experience, but even so it's an interesting coincidence.
There is an incredibly simple explanation for this.
You don't think somebody, stuck in the tower right before the collapse wouldn't have opened his/her bible to the page about the Tower of Babel? Only fitting.
From all of the accounts I've heard, PATH staff members were very busy getting everyone out of the station. It's doubtful that anyone took the time to open the bible to the appropriate part. Besides, no one knew, at the time the station was evacuated, that the towers actually would fall, which makes the Tower of Babel reference a bit far-fetched.
What is a possibility is that one of the first rescuers to enter the station saw a bible and opened it to the Tower of Babel part. The photographer surely wasn't among the first group to enter the station.
You can take a look at http://www.septembereleven.net/page152.htm for a great view of the WTC interlocking cabin. Its a shame it took such a tragity to get such a nice interrior shot of the tower and the model board. Looks like a typical US&S toggleboard style machine and you can see the very interesting track layour. Note how the platform tracks don't bitufricate in the standard way, but connect to adjacent tracks. ITs quite unique, just like the towers that stood above them. Its always a shame to see an interlocking tower fall and in this case is even more sad. I hope the temporary station will have another manual control room. I wonder how much of the trackside equipment PATH saved? Woudln't it be great if the new station used the old model board?
BTW, if anyone has seen photos of the empty WTHole its interesting to see how much of the bathtub was taken up by the PATH station. It just shows how the WTC was intertwined w/ the railroad that was first built on the site.
These photos naturally opens new doors on images we only imagined. All the PATH images seem to make us wonder what if people weren't evacuated in time. The crushed cars and ceiling by the turnstiles show that humanity was there before the worst happened.
The emotional image that brings me close to tears is one of the steel beams in the shape of a cross. The sight of it makes you wonder the meaning of it all. That steel could have been twisted or bent, but it survived in the shape of a crucifix. You'll have to draw your own conclusions to that, I already have.
Bill "Newkirk"
The emotional image that brings me close to tears is one of the steel beams in the shape of a cross. The sight of it makes you wonder the meaning of it all. That steel could have been twisted or bent, but it survived in the shape of a crucifix. You'll have to draw your own conclusions to that, I already have.
The interesting thing about it is, the website said that the crucifix landed upright. It definitely has some meaning to it. I am Christian myself and I think I know.
I'm not a particularly religious person myself but I always liked the photo that is on the front page of The Skyscraper Museum
These photos naturally opens new doors on images we only imagined. All the PATH images seem to make us wonder what if people weren't evacuated in time. The crushed cars and ceiling by the turnstiles show that humanity was there before the worst happened.
And yet people almost certainly would have survived the collapses if they were in certain parts of the station or in the undamaged cars. I suppose, however, that heat or lack of oxygen could have proven fatal before any rescuers arrived.
Will it ever be possible to look at pictures like that and not start sobbing? G-d, I hope I never become so jaded that I don't. That photographer deserves a Pulitzer prize.
Next generation who was too young to know the impact of 9/11.
I think these were taken by the official photographer guy and because he is not working for a news publication he is not eligible for the Pulitizer prize.
The Pulitzer people already caught flack over picking the New York Times' 9/11 crowd reaction shot photo montage over the Bergen Record's photo of the firemen raising the American flag over the site, so I doubt they'll even venture close to the WTC post-9/11 images when they announce the next Pulitzers in April 2003.
Even so, the photos on SeptemberEleven.net are pretty amazing to look at.
Interesting article in USAToday. I can understand the regional differences, but why the gender gap?
Is this something to do with subways or transit?
Theres a picture on the page that discusses terrorism with the caption:
Police officers stand watch Saturday at Grand Central Terminal in New York.
I agree that it is marginal, but at least it does mention one of the major NYC terminals by name...
Alicia
Actually, the reason I posted the link here was because of something I found sort of amusing in the article. One of the women from New Jersey was afraid of the Port Authority Bus Terminal. Not to malign the PABT or anything, but somehow I can't imagine it being high on the list for even the most dimwitted terrorists!
"Not to malign the PABT or anything, but somehow I can't imagine it being high on the list for even the most dimwitted terrorists!"
I hope you're right. If the Palestinian model of terrorism finds its way here, it would be a clear and major target.
Why not? It's usually crowded during rush hour and don't terrorists target crowds? (at least in Israel they do) Also, remember right after 9/11 they found high explosives in a public locker in the Philadelphia Bus Terminal? It might have been there for a terrorist, and that terrorist is one of the foreigners who just happened to get arrested after 911.
Do you remember when FALN set off the bomb at Laguardia?
The PA wasn't even letting buses into the Journal Sq terminal immediately after September 11.
"Interesting article in USAToday."
Did you want fries with your McNews?
Well yeah - unlike NEBRASKA, we actually got attacked here. When it happens on "your street" it's a whole lot more personal than when it happens "across town" ... duh.
if you guys can read this, this means i am back on subtalk. i am paul, formerly 4 LEXINGTON AVENUE EXPRESS/LEX JEROME. anyways im glad to be back, and i figured not only get a shorter and easier handle to remember, but this is my exact sn on AOL INSTANT MESSENGER. in case any of u are wondering if i was there on sunday, i was in the front car with the 4/5 T shirt on. i think it was a great trip and im sure u all agree.
now for my first subject of posting, why do most of the F trains i see lately keep saying F CULVER EXP? is it because they might be running late and they are actually going express or maybe the F crews dont know the code??? lately almost all of the Fs i see at jay st are Culver exp
AFAIK the R-46s have always displayed "Culver Exp." on their electronic signs when running on the F.
i was riding LIRR to New York Penn sunday to go to the Redbird fan trip. The train was the 837 long beach to NY and i boarded at Rosedale. however, when we got past Woodside and into Harold interlocking i noticed around the NORAC SIGNALS where sunnyside yard is, there is a sign below the catenary on the right side that says EAST SIDE ACCESS TUNNEL A. anyone know what that is? u can find this sign about 1 minute before ur train speeds up to enter line 4.
The East Side Access Tunnel is a new tunnel leading from Sunnyside Yard under 41 Avenue, across the East River on the lower level of the 63rd Street tubes. It currently dead-ends in Manhattan at Second Avenue.
The tunnel you saw is part of a new network of tunnels under construction in the Yard to connect this new line to the Main Line, to the Port Washington Branch and to yard leads.
Your observations indicate that MTA has made some progress getting the yard work done. Something on the order of 5-6 new tunnels in the yard are needed.
I do not know exactly when boring and/or blasting is to begin in Manhattan.
I forgot to mention: the ultimate destination in GCT.
The 63rd Street LIRR tunnel actually doesn't go all the way through. Before the area where the subway above splits away, there is a solid wall there. Kind of like this:
NYCTA Upper Level:
21 St s/b____________________________________//To 36 St
21 St n/b____________________________________/
LIRR Lower Level (X = wall):
21 St s/b________________________________X
21 St n/b________________________________X
I have no idea whether the roadbed to Sunnyside Yd is beyond the wall or not.
BTW, the lower level doesn't have any tracks or stations. It's just a plain smooth tan-colored dirt roadbed with the same type of concrete walls separating the tracks along with catwalks and track lighting (lit).
You are correct in that tracks and signals have not yet been installed.
As to the tunnel itself, I'm not clear on your diagram. 41 Av runs east-west, and the tunnels are under that. The LIRR tunnel was actually dug in the 1960s, and was extended at the same time as the final 63rd Street Connector was built in the 1990's.
So where exactly is this wall?
So where exactly is this wall?
It's at the point where the subway portion of the tunnel curves away from the LIRR alignment. The LIRR level is only completed as far as the area where the subway goes directly over top - where they diverge the LIRR construction ends.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK. This means that the Sunnyside Yard tunnels are being constructed independently - and when ready, MTA will "cut and cover" a connection to the 41 Av tunnel, removing that concrete wall.
Here's a diagram from elsewhere on this site:http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/63rdconn.jpg
If you look at the lower left portion of the diagram, you can see where the LIRR tunnel will continue straight ahead to Sunnyside yard. I wonder if the upper level subway tunnel will also be extended to the yard. You can see the bellmouth from the Jamaica-bound F train.
The upper level subway tunnel, currently in use, may have a diversion connected to it someday to provide additional services.
The 63rd St tunnel has a connection to the 2nd Avenue tunnel. In the movie, "Nighthawks", you can actually see the connection under construction.
Yes, indeed.
In addition, according to my LIRR conductor friend, the LIRR will be scrapping the PRR position signals for the NORAC signals - system-wide.
(!)
I'm surprised - IIRC, the LIRR doesn't run under NORAC, and the last time I heard anything on signals, it was the LIRR was keeping the Position Light types as the enginewers liked them.
In any case, the LIRR seems to be Metro-Northing the signal system - wayside signals at interlockings only. Port Washington's like this and I believe a few other lines are being done this way too.
yea FAR ROCKAWAY AND LONG BEACH HAVE ALMOST NONE! LONG BEACHES GO TO NY PENN AND FAR ROCKS USUALLY GO TO BROOKLYN. but other than for Valley tower and JAMAICA, they dont deal with position lights. there is still one or 2 on the atlantic avenue el tho
another thing to add is, altho LIRR engineers dont deal with signals often like they did a few years ago, they still must know all the rules including NORAC, even tho most engineers only encounter NORAC aspects in Zone A territory not to mention NORAC really doesnt bother LIRR unless its a rush hour train headed thru line 2 rather than line 4.
The LIRR has removed all automatic block wayside signals are have gone to Cab Signals w/o Fixed Wayside Signals for all lines except for Atlantic Ave and The Main Line.
Now if only LIRR will finally go to Grand Central and get it's act together like Metro-North, I've been waiting eons for it.
Grand Central should help alot, but LIRR should have better service in it's more sparsly populated areas like Metro-North does.
They built the IRT in 4 years. Cmmon guys finish the damn LIRR connector!
That is also what I've heard about the PL signals. Since they removed all the ABS PL's they should have enough spare parts for decades to come. Also, there are brand new PL installations on the Ronkonkoma Line inthe vicinity of Hicksville.
actually LIRR PORT WASHINGTON STILL HAS 409 territory with ABS, but they are going bye bye. they plan to keep all PLs for interlockings tho, so dont think PLs are going anywhere yet
There are signs for Tunnel A and Tunnel B there as well.
This message is a test of sorts. Just to see if I made it through the transitions during the time at which SubTalk was on hiatus (followed by my own computer suffering from worm virus.) Mr. David Pirmann (forgive me if I misspelled your last name), if you come by this message, thank you for bringing SubTalk back, and for not deleting me from the user list.
My first topic in the comeback... likely to be little of anything. Down (or up, for those of you living to the south of my city) here in Philadelphia, little is going on with rail transit. SEPTA recently named a new General Manager, and it seems that the heaviest project on her desk involves that lightr rail/commuter rail line to Reading. That, and the first phase of restructuring on the Market-Frankford line's Market Street elevated portion is underway (that, or SEPTA got bored and decided to add an interlock (of the diamond or "X" crossover variety) at 40th Street. Seeing as it's the last station in the tunnel before the Market Street elevated portion begins, I'd opt for them planning to use it as a turnback when construction gets to be too much for the trains to be running through)
Well, ciao!
~R6
Don't forget the resurrection of the 15-Girard trolley with PCC cars (I heard they were sent out for rebuilding already). Any new (even if it's "old") street running city transit is pretty exciting news for a trolley buff... I'll be real happy when they get around to the 23-Germantown Ave line I remember from when I was a kid.
Don't forget the resurrection of the 15-Girard trolley with PCC cars (I heard they were sent out for rebuilding already).
A recent Inquirer article about Philly police cracking down on rogue truckers (mostly driving with serious safety deficiencies) mentioned that one of the first PCCs to be trucked to the rebuilder was impounded with the tractor-trailer because the driver didn't have a wide load permit.
Oh, no. Sometimes, I think it's SEPTA's own problems, then it seems to be a curse. SEPTA always encounters some mishap when things seem to be going right.
BTW, this is old news I'd forgotten. Somebody suffered an unfortunate fall through the plate glass window at Market East Station a few months back. The youth only survived because he'd landed on somebody waiting for a train below. He'd supposedly lost his footing while running down the stairs, and crashed through the window. The strange thing is, I was supposed to meet one of my old math teachers from high school down at Market East that same day, but overslept, and wound up missing him, but making it down there a few hours later with my girlfriend... only to see the remains of the incident, but not to be able to get a word out of anyone.
This is just a reminder. Those "Walk, don't run. Take the time to be safe" signs found in so many train stations (including a few on the PATCO and the Broad Street Line) are there for a reason. Supposedly, the injured youth was playing with his brothers on their way to the Gallery when this happened.
R6,
If you're just back, maybe you didn't see Jersey Mike's call for a SEPTA trip: Summer SEPTA trip.
Saw it, but no can do. I'd love to, really, but Fridays are bad for me. Woking nights, I get in about 3:20 AM, and (if I'm lucky) wake back up around 11 or so. And, as an added bonus, since I'm off Fridays, I usually visit my girlfriend then.
Of course, I do appreciate the call for a SEPTA trip. I always thought most SubTalkers found SEPTA's rail system to be boring. (at least compared to NYC and Washington) Truth be told, SEPTA's network isn't very complex, but that lends itself to the system being easy to navigate, a definite plus.
Still, I live in Philly, so it wouldn't be hard getting there. I'll let Jersey Mike know if I can make it. Out of everyone within my family and friends, I'm the only railfan in the bunch.
And, speaking of DC, anyone know what came of WMATA's plans for Potomac Yards Station?
Someone thought about it in 1887:
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/harp/0528.html
Cute cartoon!. It was meant as a joke, but it is pretty cool.
How many R-44's have we lost due to accidents/scrapping? My index card from the TA dates to July 1992, and lists 140 cars rebuilt by MK (5202-5341) and another 138 done by the TA (5342-5479).
Also, how many R-46's (same question as above). I have 5482-6258 for 752 units.
Any info on how I can get an updated Car Equipment wallet card would be welcomed!
There are 272 R-44s on the NYCT Active Revenue roster out of an original 300. Of the 300, 12 were assigned to SIRR.
There are 752 R-46s that are Revenue Active. 2 (1054 & 941) were destroyed in a collision in 1986 at 179th St.
The following R44 did NOT get to the GOH program, being removed from service prior:
To accident and fire:
215 (wrecked in A service, 59 St-Columbus Cir)
227 (fire)
288 (wrecked in D service, n.of 205 St)
315 (fire)
385 (wrecked in D service, Kings Hwy)
The following were withdrawn prior to overhaul and may have been cannibalised as spares, none were wrecked to my knowledge:
109
120
132
176
248
The following R44 were lost after the overhaul and renumbering:
5282 (ex.140) (wrecked in A service, 7/03/1997, 135 Street)
5283 (ex 129) (wrecked in A service, 7/03/1997, 135 Street)
5319 (ex 295) (fire in A service, Far Rockaway-Mott Av)
The following is withdrawn, reasons unknown
5402 (ex 244)
The following are undamaged but orphaned and may still be out of service:
5285 (ex 201)
5284 (ex 326)
SO we have 300 cars original order less 16 lost to attrition less 12 more sent to SI that leaves 272. Your card showed 278 to make GOH less 6 lost to attrition, that leaves 272.
wayne
Thank you Wayne and Train Dude for the updates. I knew I was on the mark for the 46's, but wasn't sure about the 44's.
As expected, the J line G.O. now includes closure of all 4 stations:
Hewes, Flushing,Koscisuzko and Halsey for renovation.
Both platforms at all times?
No- just the Manhattan bound platforms. Queens Bound platforms have already been completed.
Ok, You made it sound for a second like TA was going to rebuild both platforms again.
Won't this affect the skip-stop service of the J/Z at rush hours? If this GO is in effect for the rush, they should make the J/Z make all available stops between Eastern Pkwy and Marcy Ave.
All the G.O> states (according to Stations Dept Bulletin)is that these 4 stations (Hewes, Fluhsing, Kosicuszko and Halsey) ate closed Manhattan bound at all times till August. On Weekends (as announced by separate G.O.s) the trains will run express from Broadway Jct to Marcy to allow canopy and platform edge work. During the week trains will run on the local track and skip these stations.
thank you for your patience.
The Response To: link is no longer shown.
Hmm that is interesting. Nothing there should have changed, (!)
You didn't happen to introduce a field change in your database or change how you read your resultset, did you? Those things drive me nuts sometimes.
Aha. Nope it wasn't a schema problem. I forgot I had a small "workaround" in the code pertaining to archived posts that I forgot to change.
Quick Tests:
Drop a wrench on battery terminals to see if current flows.
Connect a 'gimmick light' from ribbon fuse to knife switch and try 'first point.'
Drop a used brake shoe on the rail with your finger in between to see if it hurts (I did that.)
Clean the knife switch with the bug plugged in.
Pry wires in the portion with a screwdriver without dropping CB24 and look for sparks (I did that.)
Replace a 130 volt lightbulb with a 50 volt in the end.
Rinse out the traction motor commutators with water.
Leave the 'lollypop' under the load sensor.
Dump the car without warning with the supervisor on end.
Test the horn with Deputy Superintendent unwarned.
Clean group box with denatured alcohol and close.
Quick Tests: so much fun. CI Peter
Does waving your hand under the speed detector while someone else looks at the speedometer to see if the numbers change count under this category of quick tests?
Only when done with a BiC lighter. :)
My Dad worked with a couple of chaps who liked to do things like that. So much fun in the machine shoppe and the air room and NEVER a dull moment.
wayne (my Dad, V.B.Whitehorne, ex.207th Street NYCT)
Any have a map of the Jamaica interlock on the LIRR?
I have one, but it is from the December, 1957 issue of Trains Magazine. However, until 1968, nothing seemed to have changed, so it is probably pretty much accurate today.
Long live the US&S Model 14!
I have an undated "Physical Characteristics Map" of all routes. To estimate the date, it has electrification as far as Ronkonkoma. The cover has a diesel pulling a train. I don't know the type of diesel. I know it's NOT an alco. It looks like the newer version that is used in push/pull service.
Michael
Washington, DC
The end for the Redbirds comes closer...second maintainance inspection tomorrow at 0400 hrs. starting with special inspections. I'll be doing 'current collectors' and then batteries in the ten car trainset before the crew arrives. Another inspection Thursday. That'll make three trainsets with more to come. CI Peter
No, that will end the off peak train to White Plains Road, please keep the redbirds, a #2 changes to a #5 to become the 8:59 Utica, which goes local (in the Bronx) and goes to E 238 Street(10:13). A strip map would have problems with this because this WPR train goes local, it has to remain a redbird. Utica isn't even on the #5 strip map
So Memorial (Veterans) Day we have one supervisor and one Dept. Supt. for the entire operation My buddy is trying to fix a telephone handset at the car desk...I tell him to call me if he needs a hand and I'm going to the track to check out the guys sent over for 'troubles duty.' The union 'second' blows up at me in the office...'There's only one supervisor and don't you dare tell anyone what to do.' I just look him in the eye and say, "I have my assignment and standing orders." So it goes for the #5 Redbirds...we all work hard to MAKE TRAINS GO but my friend, we all have to accept the work assigned to us. Enjoy the ride while you can. CI Peter
As long as they keep that off peak <5> train to E 238 Street then they can do what they want, although Utica will cause a problem for the r 142 trains.
As Tonto once said, "MeFixumUridem." CI Peter
My No.5 train goes to Utica and I had a R 142. I just program the train for Bowling Green then cut the route and do my own thing.
Got down into the 7 Main street station around 9:30am, all the platforms were crowded, but I've seen this before.
A few trains came in and discharged but went out of service. Then the dreaded announcement "ladies and gentlemen, there is a police investigation at 61st/Woodside, we are experiencing delays".
The platform grew more crowded, and one train pulled in but did not go out of service. A T/O went on and started charging just as another announcement came on, repeating the same information then adding, that power to all tracks in the vicinity of 61/Woodside is off due to a police investigation.
I figured I'd wait it out, it was already 9:45am. Then the supervision comes in and talks to the T/O. The T/O then leaves and pulls out the brake handle, we aren't going anywhere.
Another announcement is made, now all 7 trains have been suspended until further notice due to a power off sitaution AND signal problems at Queensboro plaza.
A few people started leaving, along with me. I'd have to figure out an alternative way to Manhattan.
So I took a slow Q44 down to Jewel ave, and took a packed Q65A to Forest Hills where I got the E train.
Suprisingly, I heard no information on either 1010 WINS or WCBS 880 about the disruption. These stations are pathetic when it comes to transit coverage, and aint it a shame.
Well if anybody has any additional info on what happened on the 7 line, let us know.
You could have took the Q44 to Jewel Ave and have took the QM4 into Midtown. You could do that if you have a Pay-Per-Ride Metrocard or a 30 Day Express Bus + Unlimted. It would take out $1.50 from the Pay Per Ride Metrocard with the transfer on the card from the Q44.
It's simple!
1st,Start useing the Pay Per Ride Metrocard on the Q44/Q20A/Q20B,It would take out $1.50 out of the card. 2nd,Get off at Jewel Ave and Main St. 3rd,Wait for the QM4 to come and once you see it and once it comes closer, Put your hand out so the driver could stop. 4th,Put the card into the farebox on the QM4,It would take out a Transfer + $1.50 off the card as a step up fee.
Once I was at Jewel ave it was only 10 or 15 minutes on the Q65A to the subway. It was getting out of Flushing on the Q44 that ate the most time.
And the E train ride went OK.
Well. The QM4 is good outside of rush hour. It don't come often,Like about every 30 Minutes Middays and every hour on weekends. You should ride those QSC Orions on any express line outside of rush hour. They FAST!
"ladies and gentlemen, there is a police investigation at 61st/Woodside, we are experiencing delays".
Ever wonder how police investigations start? Last Sunday morning on a NY bound NJT train, a bomb-sniffing dog and several police members entered the train to check all baggage for any hazardous material.
AND signal problems at Queensboro plaza.
Could this be caused by the power outage or a coincidence?
"Suprisingly, I heard no information on either 1010 WINS or WCBS 880 about the disruption. These stations are pathetic when it comes to transit coverage, and aint it a shame."
Those bastards!!! Didn't they know that you were on patrol again making sure that everyone else does their job up to your exacting standards. The TA and LI Bus are thankful that you now have the media to kick around. Bet if you had a job you'd do an exemplary job.
Suprisingly, I heard no information on either 1010 WINS or WCBS 880 about the disruption. These stations are pathetic when it comes to transit coverage, and aint it a shame.
Those bastards!!! Didn't they know that you were on patrol again making sure that everyone else does their job up to your exacting standards. The TA and LI Bus are thankful that you now have the media to kick around. Bet if you had a job you'd do an exemplary job.
He does have a point. Radio traffic reports generally don't give transit much attention. Granted, transit information may be harder to obtain, but I do think there could be more of an effort.
If the information doesn't get to the radio station, they obviously can't report it!
wayne
Most radio stations use the services of "Metro Networks" for their traffic and transit reports. Metro is in Houston. Whoops.
Then the MTA should have better links to the outside media. My idea is to use the leaky wire method to transmit info via an AM radio frequency like 520 or 1620, like the DOT does for highways, for updates on conditions.
Obviously alot goes on in the subways and expecting media to cover everything might be unreasonable, so why can't the MTA have a info network like many highways do?
That would be awesome! Listening into the situations for every subway route!
Info would have to be quick and current. Many times I'd have something happen at work. It would take Shadow Traffic in NYC about 20-30 minutes before they say something on the radio.
"so why can't the MTA have a info network like many highways do?"
Because most subway riders are not driving a car with the radio on listening to traffic problems. Indeed, RADIOS AIN't EVEN ALLOWED on the Subways.
Sure, it *would* be nice to know before you leave the house or the office what the trains are doing, but there is only one way to keep abreast of breaking issues once you are enroute, and that would be for the TA to make those announcements itself.
If you are driving, you have tuned your radio to the traffic reports and are flexing your trip while you drive. The Advertizers KNOW they got you listening closely and pay a premium for these spots.
The TA needs to do the same. Each station needs, by the token booth and at other strategic places through the system an information center. Certainly a TV monitor with its own newscaster and studio giving continuing updates. The advertizers would be on side monitors and on the information board itself. Be nice to sextend the monitors onto the cars themseves, but this may not be an easy thing to do.
Let me think about it.
Elias
RADIOS AIN't EVEN ALLOWED on the Subways.
But walkpersons are, and they have radio tuners.
Alot of people have walkmans in the subways.
John, how the hell can you know who, what and how every damn job should be done and how to do it better but you can't hold a damn job, yourself. Does anyone live up to your standards? You are getting to be an annoying bore.
The TA operates a "Status Hotline" which gives hourly updates throughout the day and more frequently in instances of delays. Call 718-243-7777.
They don't publicize it very much as far as I've seen... at least not in recent years.
CG
Is this the same number for G.O.'s? I remember hearing about something available at payphones in the subway, but this was new.
I don't know. This has been around for at least 5 years.
CG
The thing with transit delays is that they're usually cleared up within 15 minutes or so. For most riders, more than 15 minutes will pass between when they hear their last transit report and when they arrive at their station -- so any info they'll have heard will be dated. Granted, the major outages should be covered.
People have radios in their cars, and can make alternate routing decisions on the go -- so broadcasting road delays makes sense.
In John's case, the fact that the delay wasn't on the radio really didn't make a hill of beans worth of difference. He was still in Flushing and still looking for a bus. No radio report could help him. I'm sure the 7 was running just fine when he left bucolic Sea Cliff earlier that morning.
CG
Well I would consider this major, I was waiting at Main street a little over 20 minutes for a train before I decided to give up.
Either way I'm getting delayed by more frequently by "police investigations". It's just bad luck, I hope.
As for news reports, they should still report major outages, when nothing is running on a given line for 30 minutes or more.
Now tell me, where were you going that required your prompt arrival?
He wanted to get to Wendy's before breakfast ended. Or maybe he wanted to spot some mystical girls before they ran off with their tall boyfriends.
Wendy's doesn't have a breakfast. They open at 10 and start with lunch.
I haven't had McDonald's or BK breakfast in ages. Not that its any good.
Wendy's is the only place I can stomach.
While most automobiles have AM radios, most commuters don't carry radios that will work underground. Transit reporting is often a formality that bebefits few.
Transit reporting is often a formality that bebefits few.
I was amazed at the simple and effective method used by the Paris Metro to communicate delays, when I first rode that system 35 years ago.
That may be part of the trouble. You tend to dwell in the past. The issue was not that the customers were not informed of the delay by the TA. Those already in the system were very much informed. The problem was that John Q. Dash the 7th wanted to be informed by WCBS & WINS before he got there.
Now, we have two problems here. One is that you have to assume that John Q. Dash the 7th is correct that neither 880 or 1010 reported the delay which would mean that he was switching back and forth on his boom-box while en route to the subway. The second is that you would need to mandate that the commercial media broadcast train delays even though the vast number of riders are not in a position to hear them or benefit by them.
As to the first point, this AM there was a 12-9 at Jay Street. Service was disrupted and it WAS broadcast over the media. I hope John Q. Dash VII was listening.
You tend to dwell in the past.
I tend not to accept TA "you never had it so good" statements at face value. I will offer examples where many "can't do" items have been accomplished by systems in other cities or were previously present in NYC.
The issue was not that the customers were not informed of the delay by the TA. Those already in the system were very much informed.
Mr. John Q. Dash VII did say that he became aware of the service delays when he got down onto the platform at Main St. I have experienced similar problems at this very station which BTW, I've used for more than 50 years.
I was very impressed with the RATP's system which notified customers of delays at street level, before they entered the station and before their ticket had been punched by the station attendant.
Most radio traffic reports are outdated by the time they are broadcast, and are of dubious value. Often I hear about a delay after I've already 'committed' to a given route, only to find that the traffic is flowing smoothly (if not necessarily quickly) at the site of the supposed delay. The only time I will change my route is when a major accident has occured (a truck rollover, for instance) and I'm pretty sure that the affected highway will be delayed for hours.
If transit information were available on the radio or TV, it would likely be subject to the same limitations. If there's a derailment or wreck, change your route. Otherwise, reports of ordinary 'delays' are fairly meaningless - you will likely lose more time by taking a different route than you would have lost had you gone with your regular route and endured the delay (if there is one).
Heck, back in my days as a subway commuter in the 80's, I never listened to the radio or watched TV before I left home in the morning. And I usually made it to work just fine.
Jim D.
TD, is the attitude necessary? Not everyone is employed, you don't need to jump down his back about the way he chooses to live.
Clayton, I think I speak for a bunch of us here when I say, yes, the attitude is necessary. I get very resentful of someone who is too lazy to get off their butt and get a job and expects me, a hard-working taxpayer, to foot their bills. I would love to have all day to do nothing but what I want to, be it riding subways or something else, but I have accepted the basic responsibility of providing for my own existence (and that of my family as well), something John rather boastfully declines to do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So how does he pay for his metrocards? Isn't working more or less a basic (unless someone left you major cash or you hit Lotto)? I agree that looking over someones shoulder while they try to do their job can be a major pain in the a**.
So how does he pay for his metrocards?
With our taxpayer dollars - his public assistance check.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, Clayton, it is necessary. I'm sick and tired of this individual criticizing how people who have a job do the ir job, especially when he does not know what having a job or taking responsibility for his own life is about. Perhaps if he were constantly looking over your shoulder assuming that he is an expert in whatever it is that you do in life, you'd take exception to his ways, also.
> Bet if you had a job you'd do an exemplary job.
Hey Train Dude, what makes you think Qtraindash7 doesn't have a job? Read his post. Why do you think he was going to Manhattan and worried about how late it was?
- Lyle Goldman
He doesn't work. He has said so many times.
David
LYLe, John has stated many times that he has never held a job. While the rest of us foot the bill, he rail-fans at taxpayer expense.
I'm sorry. I didn't know that.
- Lyle Goldman
Train Dude:
I've stayed quiet about the subject but I just want to say no one knows the truth about me and my emotional handicaps, let's just leave it that way. My personal life is no one's business. My railfanning is.
Thank you. TD, I would've emailed you but you had no email address.
>>>My personal life is no one's business.<<<
Then why did you ever mention it in the first place? Seems to me you have brought this on yourself.
Peace,
ANDEE
John Q., let me refresh your memory. You opened your life to the rest of on on the occasion of your mother's passing. Since then you've told us all about you desire for Asian women and your inability to hold a job due to being mentally challanged. You even e-mailed me privately a few times. I think you've been cut a great deal of slack in your frequent tirades over:
Seacliff being a lousy community,
doing your laundry in Great Neck because seacliff laundries suck,
Long Island Bus sucks.
NYCTransit sucks
now CBS & WINS traffic sucks
IT'S GETTING TIRING, JOHN Q.
NUF SAID
When was the last time I complained about my personal life?? It has been quite awhile, I have tried to keep that to a minimum since last Fall(a year since my mothers passing).
As far as LI Bus and transit on LI is concerned, that is relevant. I'm not saying LI Bus or WCBS sucks, I'm just suggesting improvements, and new ideas.
Yes, relying on LI Bus and OB LIRR is difficult, but improvements can be made, why shouldn't I suggest them?
I will try to catch myself if the word laundry or supermarket comes up, OK?
It should be mandatory to have one traffic-transit reporter on every train during rush hour. If they run short they can always borrow them from the Albany Bureau.
:0)
Got news for ya - every radio and TV station up here uses the same woman with a Texas drawl from "Metro Networks" ... what's funny is she uses a different name on each "channel" but her voice is as unique as that talking bear in the "bear and bull ads" for that online trading company. But you're welcome to her if you don't stretch her too thin. Around Smallbany, a bad traffic day is another car on the road. :)
The delay was due to a suspicious package at 61st St.-Woodside. We seem to have lost site of the thread.
[Suprisingly, I heard no information on either 1010 WINS or WCBS 880 about the disruption. These stations are pathetic when it comes to transit coverage, and aint it a shame.]
Funny that 1010 WINS bills its report as "Traffic and Transit" but so obviously treats the transit half as an unwanted stepchild.
Some Sub/BusTalker once opined that the traffic reporting services (Shadow, Metro) cater more to the MANAGEMENT of the radio stations than to the LISTENERS. Since radio station owners/managers (probably) don't ride trains and buses, transit info is probably kept to a minimum as a matter of policy, even in emergencies when the relevant info is available.
Why are you speculating about something you have no direct knowledge? Three of the five news managers at WCBS take the subway to work. One takes the Brighton, one the SIRT to the IRT, and the other NJT to the 8th Ave. THERE IS NO SUCH POLICY AS YOU SUGGEST. WCBS values accurate transit information as much as traffic information. What transit information Shadow Traffic is given by the NYCTA and other agencies, they report. What they're not given, they don't report.
By the way, Todd, former CBS Brooklyn correspondent Paul Fleurenges (sp?) will be the new VP of public affairs at NYCT
Interesting!
There is another former media person who is now working for a major transit organization's public affairs unit, and he even posts to this board sometimes. I met him at the Hoboken Try Transit Festival, and you can tell he benefits from having worked on both sides of the fence.
I for one am looking forward to his comments on this board.
My personal experiences with trafifc and transit reports are abysmal for all stations, and for traffic and transit equally. I like to joke that the reporters must live in Tulsa (I know it's not true, but it feels that way).
I hear repeated reports that indicate total ignorance of both roads and transit in the metro area. Some reporters can't keep inbound and outbound straight. Sometimes you'll hear a report such as N/R Cortlandt St station closed (that's news?) while other major GOs are ignored.
I also hear reports of traffic that totally contradict my personal view of the situation; even in areas like the 495 spiral where there are cameras all over the place.
I don't know why this is; maybe NYC is too complicated for the time they have allotted to them and their budgets. But I agree there is no conspiracy here; just overwork and/or incompetence.
Also Long Island usually gets less traffic coverage than New Jersey. Also they don't cover alot major roads like Northern Blvd when there is a closure.
Long Island could really use it's own News/Traffic/Transit station.
I think Channel 12 news (Nassau County's version of NY-1) has their own version of local traffic reports.
I have personally called the WCBS Transit Desk many times when I experienced a delay both on the road or on the subway ("WCBS Cellmates") and very often it gets on the air within 20 minutes of my call. If you want transit info to be better, this is one way you can have input into the process of getting it reported.
--Mark
Once upon a time I worked for WNEW radio (long before Mr. Bloomberg bought it) as a news room copy assistant. (Pulling pages off of the teletypes) (Long beofre computers took over).
One morning I was asked to prepare the traffic reports (long before Shadow Traffic). I was given a list of phone numbers to call to find out what was happening. (And that was all of the instruction I received.)
I was doing well, and reported that a major draw bridge was stuck open. Then later I reported that it was fixed. Only problem was, the newscaster read that report, and the Disk Jockey (Rember Gene Klavin) never heard it. So he kept reporting that it was open.
I was on the phone, so I didn't hear what was on the air.
Oh well, now you know how raido traffic doesn't work
Elias
AM side, huh? I worked FM (and pinch hit up on E67th Street) as one of Mitch Katz' boys. Fellow alumnus! :)
Unca Todd ... don't want to get on the wrong side of ya here, but haven't they heard of SCANNERS? Even up here in Podunk on the Hudson they know how to use a scanner and have at least an intern in front of them to tug on the shirt of a news editor here. Any "news" organization that depends solely on "tips" instead of a little "looking for stories" tends to miss stories. I'm sure there's someone at the TA that a news intern could call in the mornings and ask "are there any problems?" No offense intended, but it sounds like the Shadow DOESN'T know what evil lurks in the hearts of men. :)
Then the MTA should do a better job of getting the info out.
Suprisingly, I heard no information on either 1010 WINS or WCBS 880 about the disruption. These stations are pathetic when it comes to transit coverage, and aint it a shame.
John, as you may know I work for WCBS 880. Both our station and WINS use the same contractor for traffic and transit information, Shadow Traffic. I have asked Shadow about situations like this. I'm told that the NYCTA doesn't report many of these types of incidents. So if NYCTA doesn't report them to Shadow, there's no way that the information can be broadcast on the radio. When Shadow gets the information, they broadcast it. Admittedly, the Shadow reporters do not know the subway system as well as you and I do. So sometimes there are inaccuracies in the reports. Anyone can call with tips or corrections - 212-975-8888 and ask to be transferred to the traffic center.
Same reason down here in DC. WTOP does not report it if the transit agency don't. If I had their number, I would pass it on.
The VRE has a great e-mail notification if there are any delays on their trains.
What fantrips will there be in the next 2 months? Also who would you go through for tickets to retro fantrips?
The word is that the Transit Museum vs. Red Cross/MTA will offer 3 D-Types trips this summer (July one; August two). If you're a member they'll notify you, if not stay tuned to this Bat Channel & call as soon as you see the announcement.
I couldn't be more pleased that all 3 remaining sets of trains are now in working order ! Now if only the Lo-Vs & Standards were available, well maybe some day soon ... let's hope.
Mr rt__:^)
Maybe someday the museum R-1/9s can go on a fantrip again.
Agree with that !
As I've said before, they COULD put togather a train of them as well as a set of various "Arch Roof" too ... if they wanted to & if they have saved some parts somewhere.
Mr rt__:^)
At the end of the D-Type fantrip, Mike Hanna gave us a tour of CI Shops. Two of the three standards were on horses. As he was talking about them, he said that his volunteer group is trying to get them ready for the subway's 100th birthday, but working one night a week (Tuesdays) doesn't allow very much to get done. Boy, do I wish I knew about this when I was single and still living in Brooklyn.
Also, the sole remaining 1938 IRT Worlds Fair car is in the paint shop.
--Mark
How are the BMT standards coming along?
Well, the bodies look pretty good, but the window glass was all covered so I couldn't see inside. Maybe Mark W can give us better details ...
--Mark
"As he was talking about them, he said that his volunteer group is trying to get them ready for the subway's 100th birthday, but working one night a week (Tuesdays) doesn't allow very much to get done"
Everybody whines, why didn't they do this or that and whatever, but be it Coney Island, Branford, Seashore, the most of youse are like NIMBYS, too far, wrong day, no time etc...etc...etc. All F------ Talk. Get out join one of the groups get dirty, they do what they can, when they can with limited labor & resources. Plaudits to the Museum volunteers, most have full time employment and other values
to handle. And if you can't do, don't B---I---T---C---H about those that are trying to do something. Even if you can't labor, then send
funding to your favored cause, get off your six & do something, besides exaspersating from your easy chair.
:-( Sparky
BERA;TMNY;NEERHS;RTM
To all, I'm not associated with Mike Hanna's group, BUT Mark's comments have motivated me to ask ... who wants to help get those Standards finished ?
Mike's crew is there Tuesday's & I believe Sunday's. If you can't be there in person there are many other ways you can help. Mark W. and others here can answer your questions. No prior experience required.
This writer started one Saturday in July on the roof of 6688 with a blow torch & a scrapper. At the end of the day the Project Leader sheeplessly said "we hope to see you again". Well, I came back & have had many many rewarding & satisfying days at a local museum.
BTW, I understand that all three Standards can take power, so what's left is mostly cosmetic work (trucks/wheels/motors ... don't know).
Mr rt__:^)
Why were there almost all reds on the queens blvd today around 5:30. My E was stop for up to 5 minutes at a time. Also I was on the train when the guys in the manhattenbound 53st tunnel flagged the train down and on of them got on and got off at lex. The T/O was a asian, then guy who got on was mexican, also there were 2 or 3 other guys in the tunnel, they were doing something to the tripcock.
Also was at the front of a slant R40 N I was railfanning from Brooklyn, but in Manhattan we had a red homeball just before 57th/7th on the Queens bound local track, this was around 5:40pm. Fortunately the T/O got on the radio and they were able to fix it.
Add that to the 7 mess this morning. The subways did not have a good day.
But the Slant R40 did well on the 4th ave express, it is such a shame that we had to go via tunnel/local. The N belongs on the bridge!
The W gets all the special treatment, some alien line with Hippos. :-0
are there any forums dedicated to metro-north only?
Railroad.net has a Metro North forum:
"MTA Metro-North Forum".
It has been quite a while since I have taken the train to the city, and I came up with some interesting sights today.
1. Rode Comet IV car #5011. The interior door leading into the vestibule was either electrically off or broken. It was funny in a sort of way that people had to continually close the door after each station stop where people had to open it to enter the car.
2. There is an intriguing switch next to that door on the left side. It's one of those oval shaped switches which are metal.
3. One side of interior LCD panels was defective. So was the one on the exterior. The Arrow III adjacent to us when we arrived at NY was also defective.
4. Noticed a fixed amount of Comet IV trainsets on the NEC. I enjoyed the ride.
5. Noticed the exterior LED signals outside of the train. Those orange, blue, green (a nice yellow-green color on the Comet IV) and red (which is separate) lights.
6. Noticed a wide variety of "beeps" and other tones in the vestibule area.
Questions:
1. What is that metal switch next to the interior door? Does it have anything to do with the door?
2. How frequent are inspections on NJT equipment? Those LED's may need a little work.
3. Does anyone know how many Comet IV trainsets serve the NEC on a weekday?
***4. What is the significance of the "blue" light under the orange light when it is solid, and while it is blinking?
5. Does anyone know about other tones on the Comet IV that are not usually heard?
6. Why are the wheels on the train (mostly on any train or subway) have a dark shading on one side of the wheel?
7. Why have conductors disused the automated annunciation system on the train? Are the conductors lazy or is it broken? (This has happened on every Comet IV ride since close to a year ago)
Sorry for the lengthy e-mail, but I hope someone can answer at least some of the questions, and since I posted question #4 twice on this board, and nobody bothered to look at it.
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
1. ON the Danbury trains thats a door control, there is a toggle switch underneth. the 2 modes are manual and automatic. In automatic the door opens and closes by it self at each station. In manual you must touch the pannel for it to open. Not sure about closing though.
... since I posted question #4 twice on this board, and nobody bothered to look at it.
Don't assume that, because no one answered it, nobody looked at it. I read it, for one, but I don't know the answer, hence I didn't answer it. Would you rather I make up an answer and demonstrate clearly my ignorance of the subject? I think not!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1. The metal switch inside the coach switches the automatic door operation from normal (opens when you press the button and close by itself) or manual (where you have to pull the door open). The same switch in the vestibule is normal (same as above) or open (which automatically opens the door and keeps it open).
2. The equipment is inspected when reported by the conductor which is very rare. So they get inspected at their regularly scheduled intervals and I don't know how often that is.
3. It's not that many. Most if not all comet IV equipment is Long Branch equipment. They start in Long Branch and do a run or 2 on the corridor, then go back to Long Branch. The 6:12AM train from Princeton Jct is 95% always comet IV equipment with one car being a comet III. The 8:37 AM and 9:12AM trains from Jersey Avenue are always comet IV equipment.
4. Green light indicates that the brakes are released, the orange light indicates that the brakes are applied and the blue light indicates that a handbrake is on in that car. Although it is very common that the handbrake indicator is false.
5. The only tones on comet IV is the two-toned door closing chime.
6. I don't know.
7. On comet IV equipment, the automatic annucator is located in the middle of the car behind the Passenger information slot (by the center doors). The conductors always put in the train # which activates it. You will notice that if it is cloudy, raining, snowing or foggy the automatic announcements won't work because the cars are equiped with GPS and the signal is VERY weak in inclimate weather. Now the conductors almost never use the automatic announcments saying, Please have your tickets ready, all the transfer points, reasons for delays and various other things because they would have to go to the center of the car, open the door and type in the code which is a pain in the ass when you can just say it over the PA and most of the conductors don't know the codes to begin with (There is about 40 of them).
8.On the refurbised Comet II equipment, the automatic aanouncement annucator is located in a small closet at the end of the cars which is more ideal to deal with because it isn't really in the way of the passengers.
The Comet V's appear to be more conductor friendly.
3. It's not that many. Most if not all comet IV equipment is Long Branch equipment. They start in Long Branch and do a run or 2 on the corridor, then go back to Long Branch. The 6:12AM train from Princeton Jct is 95% always comet IV equipment with one car being a comet III. The 8:37 AM and 9:12AM trains from Jersey Avenue are always comet IV equipment.
Don't forget about the Morristown Line, This line is 100% locomotive hauled, and there are few Comet III's in service.
I think there is a little more Comet IV equipment on the NEC.
8.On the refurbised Comet II equipment, the automatic aanouncement annucator is located in a small closet at the end of the cars which is more ideal to deal with because it isn't really in the way of the passengers.
The Comet V's appear to be more conductor friendly.
Do you have more information about the Comet V?
The Morristown Line is 100% non electric west of Dover. Midtown direct trains are 85% comet IV with a few comet III and II equipment. From Hoboken the line uses everything from Arrows to disel or electric hauled comet II, III and IV coaches. The Booton Line uses mostly comet I equipment with a comet II cab car so people can exit at Dover since it is high platform. That line too uses comet IV equipment, but I'm starting to see more refurbished comet II's.
Go www.hobokenterminal.com for more info on the comet IV.
David owns this forum. Whatever he wants goes. But since he does listen to questions, I want to know why the 'The Most Hallowed Ground' thread was deleted. I was getting to respond to a rather flamey one when I got a no longer exists message.
Admittedly, discussing the footprint requirements of an opera house in the clouds (a building at least 200 feet wide and easily a 1000 feet long) makes such a venue unlikely, but I and others were having fun with it. It would have died it's own death.
Why?
A deleted thread? And I didn't even contribute to it or read one post for that matter. Hope it ain't old age.
> rather flamey one
Do you really need to ask?
Oh well, I suppose it was getting very OT! (But it was fun!)
Just curious to know which part of the trip people enjoyed the most. The best part for me was going down the Brighton Express. Then the small group of us waiting with cameras pointed due south on the northbound platform at Atlantic av Ave on the Canarsie Line anxiously awaiting the arrival of that 'D-Type'. That was cool.
To me, one of the best parts was seeing people wave and shout suprisingly at us with happy/confused faces. :) And Broadway/Yard cut when we switched from L to J/Z line.
And of course, photo stop @ Broad street station.
The lay over at Brighton Beach, did anyone "HEAR" the cars from the street. I would love to hear the train idling in the station.
Yeah, when I got my "continental lunch" (the lines at the pizza places were too long), I stopped to just listen ... then I went about 1/2 block up Brighton 6th St to remember what they looked like when they terminated at Brighton.
--Mark
All this paranoia about terrorist attacks on the subways has gone too far! Somehow, if terrorists DID bomb the subway, the humble L would probably be the line least likely to be chosen.
I take the 'L' every day to work. One more thing on my mind to worry about now. GEEEZ PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just go find some Standards and put them back on the Canarsie line. They'd muffle the force of any tunnel explosion...
We gotta get that boy to a Wal*Mart ... they have inflatable bunkers on sale this week. :)
Seriously, that boy needs some counseling or a moving van.
What are the chances of it anyway? The terrorists value crowded places. Ever notice what background the terrorists are from? (I am not discriminant) It's hard to find a group of terrorists outside of that race.
Counting seconds in order to determine where he is? What a mindless and useless way. If he is preparing himself for a terrorist attacks, he should join army. Not one train goes at the same speed as the next train, so maybe he should count the light bulbs in the tunnel..
"the humble L would probably be the line least likely to be chosen. "
What about the G?
Ha Ha! I know, why is it the L of all lines?
The guys they caught on 4th Ave. and President St. in Brooklyn back in 1997 were planning to bomb the Atlantic Ave./Pacific St./Flatbush station, which, while certainly crowded at rush hour, would not strike me as a primary target (as opposed to, say, Penn or Grand Central). So not even the G is safe.
That said, I think (or at least I hope) it's probably harder to set up suicide bomb attacks here in New York City than in the West Bank. Settled Arabs who live/have businesses here have a strong personal interest in reporting suspicious goings-on to the police. Whatever their political/religious beliefs, the fear of vigilante lynch mobs trashing their homes and businesses should provide ample incentive.
For the record, I'm against vigilante lynch mobs trashing anything (or anyone).
In the NY Press, huh?
A poor second to the Village Voice but the writers are just as paranoid.
Quite frankly if even 1/3 of what they printed was really viable then we would have been calling each other Comrade years ago.
In the NY Press, huh?
A poor second to the Village Voice but the writers are just as paranoid.
Quite frankly if even 1/3 of what they printed was really viable then we would have been calling each other Comrade years ago.
The NY Press was a much better newspaper a couple of years ago, but it's deteriorated, big time. Many of its editorial features have been dropped in favor of (paid) dining and entertainment listings. Keeping things on-topic, one of the Press' remaining features is a column of anecdotes and observations, found on the second page and with no title other than the issue's date. Usually there are a couple of anecdotes concerning amusing things seen on the subway, and somehow many of them just don't sound right.
Let's not be too macho, fellas.
I'm willing to admit that terrorism is at the back of my mind at all times, and it's hard to escape the vulnerability of the the subways. For my part, I like that the (F) now has a station in the middle of the East River, thus breaking up the stationless area. Maybe that's not perfectly rational, but hey whatever helps to soothe the worry.
:-) Andrew
Oooo, a station in the middle of the East river would be cool! It could be like an upsidedown glass bottom boat ride. Really not feasable, though. Not only would you have to watch out for bombs (or even baseball) in the station, but also cement encased feet falling from above.
I agree witrh you that they have gone too far with the paranoia over terrorist attacks in the subways.
#3 West End Jeff
I've also recently read press reports that many people in law enforcement are getting fed up with all these terrorist "threats" being issued by the Feds ....
--Mark
I've also recently read press reports that many people in law enforcement are getting fed up with all these terrorist "threats" being issued by the Feds ....
But if they don't issue them, then the feds later on get blamed for not issuing the threats if something does happen.
If you are aware Dick Cheney last week sounded a warning in my own opinion simply to cry "WOLF!!"
#3 West End Jeff
Sometimes they can go to far in issuing terrorist threats.
It's Oy Veigh...you meshugganuh Goyim..and I'm proud to be a New Yorker, a Transit employee and Goyim too!! All the best to all, CI Peter
Oy Vey YOU WOULDN'T WANT to know the REAL Meshugga Goy and the worst part is that he is an EX railroader >:-<
Peter bubbala - it is Oy Vay or Oy Vey. Not Oy Veigh.
(and no it is Jennifer Jason Leigh not Jennifer Jason Lay - but that would be an interesting concept).
Juice Mentsch ... the singular version of "goyim" is "goy" :) Cute response!
--Mark
Do they make it for the <5> train
Why do they combine these two?
Was it always called Nereid Avenue, or did it used to be 238 Street?
What does the train station say, Nereid Avenue or 238 Street?
The old trains say E 238 Street, then new ones say Nereid Avenue
I believe it was Nereid Avenue before it was E 238th Street. You tend to see the same thing in the East Flatbush section of Brooklyn (AND OTHER PLACES TOO) where a numbered street is named:
E
E 11=Coney Island
E 20=Ocean
E 27=Rogers
E 30=Nostrand
E 33=New York
E 36=Brooklyn
E 41=Albany
E 44=Troy
E 47=Schenectady
E 50=Utica
E 60=Raplh
E 62=Mill Road
E 90=Remsen
E 97=Rockaway Pky
wayne
In most of the above cases, the named street predates the numerical grid. The exceptions are Mill Avenue (E62) and Remsen Avenue (E90), also Bergen Avenue (E76) and Royce Street (E75).
Nereid I think is the same, but in the case of that area I think all of the streets had names at one point (a la Queens), but Nereid was prominent enough to maintain its old name.
Station signs say "East Tremont Ave" on the 2/5 Lines.
R-142s say "West Farms Square".
Is the station being renamed to match what the automated R-142 announcements say?
--Mark
I still say E Tremont. I don't know how they came up with West Farms SQ. Just like the R142 say Eastchester/Dyre Ave. I never known it as Eastchester.
Dyre Avenue is the name of a street.
Eastchester appears to be the name of a Neighborhood, Although there is an Eastchester Road, it is not in the same area as Dyre Avenue. The (5) would cross it just north of Gun Hill Road.
The only West Farms SQ I could find on Microsoft ways in Manson City IA. LOL
Elias
West Farms Square has quite a bit of historicals on it (microsoft not withstanding heh) and a simple search on google turns up many:
http://www.google.com/search?q=west+farms+square+bronx
West Farms Square is the name of the intersection of Boston Road, Southern Boulevard and Tremont Avenue. It was the center of the Town of West Farms which was separated from the Town of Westchester in 1846 and was annexed to the City and County of New York in 1874.
Thanks for the history tibit (according to the info, my residence would be in Westchester County if it were 100 years ago :-))
It's been said before here on the boards that East Tremont Avenue/West Farms Square station stop was due for a renovation project sometime within the next two years (sooner than later). Although the map will say both names, my guess is that with all the new cars coming in the name of the station will be changed to "West Farms Square" when the renovation is complete.
My big history leson for the day. For some 35 or mor years I've believed that what is now the Bronx was annexed along with Brooklyn and the rest in 1898. So it wasn't all done in one bite. The East Tremont station [2 and 5] as my memory serves me was originally called 177 St; Parkchester was EaST 177 St. I've noticed the East Tremont name since my first revisit in 1996. Personally I think names sound nicer than numbers.As for "West Farms Square" I've knownthat name since childhood but wonder if there is a street sign there with such designation? Do any of the present locals or anyone who's been there since the 70's even use that name? It is authentic and sounds nice tho.
Thanks for the history tibit (according to the info, my residence would be in Westchester County if it were 100 years ago :-))
In 1902, your residence (if it is in the Bronx as I assume from the above) would be in the New York City borough of the Bronx just as it is now. The only difference would be that it would be in New York County, as Bronx County was not created until 1914.
There were two boroughs in the same county between 1898 and 1914?
There were two boroughs in the same county between 1898 and 1914?
Yes
Thank you. That's incredible!! Just what this area needed -- more government!!
By having one county serve two boroughs, wouldn't that be LESS government?
I would have preferred if New York had never expanded beyond Manhattan Island and had never begun the occupation.
I meant the creation of a new county resulted in more government. While New York City is unique in that the Sheriff's Office covers five counties, the Bronx would not have had its own District Attorney's Office until 1914. I'm sure no jobs were lost that year.
I have never gotten over the contrast between New Jersey and New York City. Roughly equal in population, there are 21 counties versus 5, and 566 municipalities versus 1. The happy median might have been far better realized on your side of the Hudson had New York City been limited to Manhattan. But would the BRT and IRT have been willing to cross municipal lines? Perhaps this website would be called L Talk!
Maybe the IRT and the BRT/BMT would be commuter rail like LIRR and MNRR. Maybe they would all be one company by now.
But would the BRT and IRT have been willing to cross municipal lines?
It happened in other cities, it would happen in NYC.
In fact, the fact that New York city is grotesquely oversized has LIMITED subway expansion. HOW you ask? By creating distant boundaries, the city has no need to deal with subways crossing beyond municipal lines. If New York City had been confined to Manhattan, they would have no choice but to cross municipal lines (the city's well-being depended on it), therefore there would be no problem in running subway lines to Nassau or Westchester, since Nassau was part of Queens and it would already enter Westchester.
It would mean that there wouldn't be a powerful Mayor Hylan who could create his own municipal subway to compete with and put under the BMT.
The BMT and IND would have been taken over by the state in the 1950s. The agency would be called the MTA. The 1968 agency would have been called something else.
The above uses IND instead of IRT in the first sentence of the last paragraph. This message has been correct in the post below.
The above uses IND instead of IRT in the first sentence of the last paragraph. This message has been corrected in the post below.
But would the BRT and IRT have been willing to cross municipal lines?
It happened in other cities, it would happen in NYC.
In fact, the fact that New York city is grotesquely oversized has LIMITED subway expansion. HOW you ask? By creating distant boundaries, the city has no need to deal with subways crossing beyond municipal lines. If New York City had been confined to Manhattan, they would have no choice but to cross municipal lines (the city's well-being depended on it), therefore there would be no problem in running subway lines to Nassau or Westchester, since Nassau was part of Queens and it would already enter Westchester.
It would mean that there wouldn't be a powerful Mayor Hylan who could create his own municipal subway to compete with and put under the BMT.
The BMT and IRT would have been taken over by the state in the 1950s. The agency would be called the MTA. The 1968 agency would have been called something else.
West Farms Square is the name of the square just below the station. As to why the couldn't include East Tremont Avenue in the announcements is beyond me.
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
Yeah and have a station name longer than the station platform. Brilliant idea.
There seems to be a trend to name stations to include area names. The area underneath that station (East 177 on the 2/5) is known as West Farms Square. Back int eh 1950s it was called East 177 then became West Farms Square in the mid 1960s. Now it is East Tremont with the secondary name of West Frams Square.
Or is it E177 St?
Can't be. E 177th st is now but a shell of its former self (I'm being very generous here) ever since the Cross Bronx Expressway - Interstate 95 was built (almost a half century ago). Even still, the nearest E177th Street gets to the station is nearly two square blocks from where the street dead-ends (or, more appropriatly, becomes the on-ramp for the Sheridan Expressway - Interstate 895)
My point was that AFAIK theoriginal name of the station was E177 St. Rubbish name, though. I prefer West Farms Square any day. Makes you wonder why they don't rename a few other stations after squares. For instance:
72nd St (1,2,3 Line) - Verdi Square
23rd St (R Line) - Madison Square
14th St (A,C Line) - Jackson Square
East Broadway (F Line) - Straus Square
I'm sure there are many other instances, but those are all I can think of at the moment.
Because all of those square names are little-known, except for Madison Square, and that's easily confused with Madison Square Garden.
Not many people had heard of West Farms Square or Nereid Avenue until the Subway started using those names. And the names Bliss, Lowery etc only live on because of the Subway.
But why confuse people unnecessarily? Everyone knows where 72nd Street is, and it's obvious from the map that the line runs on Broadway there.
One of the features of the NYC subway that I like is its down-to-earth station names.
But why confuse people unnecessarily?
Did that stop the MTA launching the 52% full V train?
Actually, the V was 0% full when launched.
But the introduction of the V was a useful change. It increased service between Queens and Manhattan. The E and F are substantially less crowded than they were before the change, and many E and F riders now have additional option that's a bit slower but is more likely to have seats.
What does renaming stations accomplish? The 72nd Street stop is at 72nd Street. It's already called 72nd Street. What purpose would it serve to rename it, especially when people are a lot less likely to know where Verdi Square is than to know where 72nd Street is? Renaming the station might reduce crowding, but only because people trying to get to 72nd Street won't know how to get there.
Naming stations by a Square has the advantage that for an absolute idiot they won't end up in the wrong 72nd St station. Yes, it is catering for idiots, but I think some of the names of squares have a poetic air to them - with the DEFINITE exception of Madison Square ;-)
The only other 72nd Street station is under ten minutes away by foot. Big deal if someone ends up at the wrong one. At least they know now that the 1/2/3 stops at 72nd at all.
"except for Madison Square, and that's easily confused with Madison Square Garden."
So put MSG back in it's place! : )
So you want to rename 50th Street on the C/E now?
"So you want to rename 50th Street on the C/E now?"
Huh?
Move it back even further! : )
So put MSG back in it's place! : )
Especially if it means we get a nice looking Penn Station!
As a kid I rememeber this station being called East 177th Street then East Tremont and with the R-142's rolling through, its West Farm Square Station, This station is in very bad shape for one thing if a train passes through the station vibrates with two trains its downright scary.
As a kid I rememeber this station being called East 177th Street then East Tremont and with the R-142's rolling through, its West Farm Square Station, This station is in very bad shape for one thing if a train passes through the station vibrates with two trains its downright scary.
[Was it always called Nereid Avenue, or did it used to be 238 Street?]
I've always known that street as Nereid (NEE-re-id) Avenue. In Greek mythology, the Nereids were the (fifty!) mermaid daughters of Nereus, son of Poseidon. As for why a landlocked street is named after mermaids, who knows?
It's named after an old volunteer fire brigade.
(Assuming announcer's voice from the old Rocky and Bullwinkle series) ... you don't mean the old horse and buggy pump squad as in "Neigh riders" ... (tuba sounds, fade to black)
John McNamara's excellent book, History in Asphalt: The Origin of Bronx Street and Place Names, is in its 4th edition and is available from http://www.bronxhistoricalsociety.org He explains that the name Nereid "is a remembrance of a long-ago firehouse of a voluteer hose company once situated off Richardson Avenue before East 238th Street was cut through. Old-time pumping wagons carried watery names.... Nereids were regarded as marine nymphs of the Mediterranean..." Gorgeous women swimming in the Mediterranean, a delightful image ... The number "238" does seem a bit dull.
Couldn't agree more. I was a partner in "Bronx Sound Studios" back in the 1970's on E 233rd (it was part of a music store as well just off WPR) ... didn't know the hose company angle and I'm used to odd streets in da Bronx being named after local families that once lived there by name so I'll take your word for it and your quoted authority.
But yo, BRO ... still da Bronx. MOOooo. :)
Is anyone else having trouble with their message displays? Tonight, all of a sudden, my posting preferences were somehow reset, and I only saw the messages from the past day. What's worse, I went to "Change Display Preferences" and tried to select "last several eons," but somehow I couldn't get more than one month on the listbox! Is anyone else having a problem like this?
- Lyle Goldman
Last several eons hasn't been available for the last several eras, since all of the posts older than about two weeks are in the archives.
Well, I strongly suggest that Dave bring it back. There really should be a way to display all messages not archived yet, no matter how long ago it was posted and no matter when the old messages were last expired. Don't you all agree?
- Lyle Goldman
The board has only been back for two weeks or so. Everything before that is in the archives.
If you're still not getting everything, try limiting by date rather than by time period.
> The board has only been back for two weeks or so. Everything before that is in the archives.
I know, but that won't be true for long!
- Lyle Goldman
By that time, Dave will have archived the older posts so that they will be in the archives.
It was like that ever since nycsubway.org moved servers so that Subtalk was on a separate server and the archives were reactivated.
I ask again-- did you try the date toggles to see what you get?
Yes, I tried the dates setting, but that didn't work. I put January 2002 to December 2002, and I got absolutely no messages.
- Lyle Goldman
Have you tried using the date toggles? Remember there's no posts between mid-Feb. and mid-May.
I fixed the code so that if your settings for list time were no longer appropriate (i.e. one of the current list choices) it reset you to list default which is Day for Subtalk and I think Week for Bustalk.
Keeping yourself set at last several eons, which hadn't been a valid choice in a while anyway, just placed undue load on the server having to pull up the threader information for every single post on the server each time you (re)load the index.
> I fixed the code...
When did you do this?
- Lyle Goldman
IIRC, it was a few months before the hiatus.
In the past two weeks.
........and he done it well!
The New Work Program has hit the Streets, N Midnights will run EXPRESS OPTO to Pacific st. Weekends it will also run with c/r to pacific .
On weekdays, which will run over the bridge and express in Manhattan?
thw way it is,starting 9/8/02,The N will run its regular route from Ditmars Blvd-86th st brooklyn weekdays,broadwaylocal-tunnel-4ave exp.
The W will run to Ditmars 24/7 as normal over the bridge but late nights and weekends through the tunnel while the N terminates at 36th late nights and Pacific on weekends.Seeing as the W will be the only one going to Coney Island,thats a very good idea sending the train that will run to CI 24/7 to Queens for riders who want to go there dont have to transfer or anything.
So not only is the N going to only run weekdays in manhattan and Queens, but it's also going to remain local and in the tunnel? Are they gonna leave the Sea Beach Line stations in the same decrepit condition that they're in now too? What in the hell? Has the TA not punished the N train and Sea Beach Line riders enough? Talk about you royal screwjob. Why can't the W run in the tunnel weekdays? It makes no sense to run the W express over the bridge on weekdays and local in the tunnel nights and weekends. Having yesterday's express train become today's local train does not make sense. Does the TA have any idea how confusing it's gonna be? Why can't they make the service consistent? It would be so much easier to run the N express over the bridge when it is running to Queens and for the W to run through Montague 24/7. And it's not only going to confuse Broadway Line commuters, but also tourists and people transfering from other lines as well. Imagine how long platform signs will have to be to show all the services and when they run and don't run and what to take when they don't run. Or the confused looks one people's faces when they see W at a station or on a map and expect to get a W train, but are told they can't because "it's not stopping here today."
Yes I know West End has higher ridership than Sea Beach. But I also know that between 62nd Street and Coney, the two lines run fairly close to each other. Why else would the TA run GO's that reoute the N to the West End or the W/B to the Sea Beach? Why else would they have the "one-way GO's" where the N or W runs along their normal route one-way and over the other's line the other? Could it be that because the W runs express that more people use it? Does anyone think that if the N was made the express that it just might have higher or at least equal ridership to the W?
You already answered your own question. The West End has nearly double the ridership of the Sea Beach, and as far as GO's are concerned, the Sea Beach is used because it is the closest connection to the 4th Avenue Line when the West End is having work done.
hey the W will be the only train going to Coney Island come September so they want riders from manhattan and queens to be able to use the train that goes to CI and not make any transfers or whatever.
everything will remain normal except that the N will be in brooklyn only on weekends and late nights while the W goes to Queens 24/7,over bridge weekdays,over tunnel late nights and weekends.and this is more preferable especially come summer time at least the summer of 2003. what?you'd rather have NO trains go to CI!? then that will be really f***ed up.The F and Q are already gonna be cut back so lets give some credit to the TA.when they do something like this,they try to make it better for people.the purpose of this flip is for Coney Island and the rehab going on there and to apply the best solution for train service to there.seeing as the West End is the only one thats gonna be there,this is good enough.and i dont think its gonna be too confusing.it should be easy to figure out after the first week.of course that dont have any brains will be confused and arguing for months over nothing.
>>> what?you'd rather have NO trains go to CI!? <<<
I know I didn't say or imply that in my post. What I suggested was to run the weekday N express and over the bridge and run the W local 24/7 through the Montague Tunnel. I suggested this so there might be less confusion as to which train goes where and on which days or hours. I never said anything about taking the W out of Coney Island.
This would inconvenience the much larger number of West End riders, and even if you swap them, the West End as a local will still have more passengers.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again: If you can't tell the difference between weekends and weekdays, then take a taxi to a psychiatrist.
Even then? I guess that shouldn't be a surprise given that W riders in Borough Park and south of 86th Street are nowhere near the N like you said. I see your point and I will defintely take your word for it as you're far more familiar with Brooklyn than I am (I live in the Bronx but went to Brooklyn Tech from 1992 to 1996 - would've been nice to have had Broadway express/bridge service at that time).
I do understand that the TA has to make do with only half of the bridge tracks in service and that they need to renovate Stillwell Avenue terminal now and that the West End has much higher ridership than the Sea Beach. Let's just hope the TA makes it as clear as possible to how the N and W will run, especially on platform signs, so as not to have another G train situation (see the thread on that one). Hopefully no one on the W will ask on a Saturday or Sunday, "Why is this train going local?"
Hopefully no one on the W will ask on a Saturday or Sunday, "Why is this train going local?"
Or, worse, "Oh, I'll pass up this W and wait for an N since I'm going to a local stop."
Hopefully no one on the W will ask on a Saturday or Sunday, "Why is this train going local?"
Or, worse, "Oh, I'll pass up this W and wait for an N since I'm going to a local stop."
It's gonna take a few weeks just to get them used to the concept that the N goes to Pacific and the W goes through to Manhattan.
Does anyone think that if the N was made the express that it just might have higher or at least equal ridership to the W?
No. Because there are people who live along the W who are not close to the N, such as the people who live on the other side of New Utrecht/86th. When the W makes it to 18th Avenue, it's already fairly far from the N. Whereas the N, once it's far enough away from the N, is already close to the F.
Having people use the W in lieu of the N is far more convenient to more people than vice-versa.
The MTA is doing the best it can with limited resources. If both sides of the bridge were open and all eight-tracks at Stillwell too, then they could run the N express over the bridge to CI, but there is no room to do that, and if any line is screwed over, it should be the lower-ridership N.
As for the "confusion" you cite, it isn't a problem. If people don't know the difference between weekends and weekdays, then they are mentally handicapped and should reconsider riding mass transit without assistance.
You should come to Pacific St on a weekend and meet the herds of "mentally handicapped" people before spouting off at the mouth.
I think I asked the Question before on SubTalk but didn't get a chance to get back and read it before it was deleted by the Site's Server, How many R-143 Sets are in Service or in the 30-day Acceptance Test? And What 2 R-143 Sets will be coupled together to make one Train?
right now 8101-8108 are in service and are not in order like they were when they first started running.8101 and 8108 are the 2 middle cars now.the other one i saw was 8116-8123 i think,and i think 8125-8132 is also in service,i saw it before
The "30-Day Test" was over in January. The R-143's passed, and AFAIK, there are at least two (2) full length R-143 trains (8 cars) operating on the L.
There are also a number of cars undergoing acceptance, being outfitted for CBTC, and getting other work done at ENY, Pitkin and 207.
There are now 3 sets of R-143's in service on the L.
Attention: There are no A/C Trains running between West 4 and Broardway Junction due to Police Activity.
12-9 at Jay Street
Radio said this morning a police investigation. Hopefully it was an accident.
Acording to the report, a customer fell in front of a south-bound A train entering Jay Street. The result was not pleasant.
IND trainmaster must've been quite busy for the duration. The Fulton line was effectively severed from the system.
Actually, as 12-9s go this was not a long delay. Incident began at around 6:20 AM and service resumed at 7:09 AM. Incidently, we don't have trainmasters any more. He's now the IND Desk Superintendent.
Nope...that would be the Subdivision B-2 Desk Superintendent :-)
David
Picky, picky, picky
And a "whistle" is now called a
"approved sound-signal device"
:-)
Was the F Train still running?
Hey Dude, I missed you at the fan trips. You mean you couldn't even make one of them? Sheeeeeeeeetttttttttt. Ok, plan for October when #1 Brighton Express Bob, Steve 8AVEXP and #4 Sea Beach hit town. No excuses. And tell your hermit friend Selkirk to get off his dime and join in too.
Fred, the duties of grandparenthood called. What could I do? October for sure !!!!!
Steve, if everyone shows up who has promised to do so, you'll have to arrange a special train!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, it'd be the PERFECT excuse for the ultimate foamerride ... *C* division ... three rider cars, a flatcar and N2 ... that'd be the ultimate. Hand Unca Steve a bullhorn so he can make the bull and pinion noises and Unca Fred will go apesheet. :)
Actually, I can bring one of Heypaul's audio tapes.
You should have heard me a few years ago on an L train. As we started the uphill climb to Bedford Ave., I imitated the BMT standards as they used to labor up that grade. Even Wayne joined in on the fun.
Hell ... if things are quiet here in October *AND* we have an economy by then so I can afford it, I'll do it with ya in stereo. :)
Neener-neener.:-)
Can you do a good "tch-ssss" sound?
Give me an R9 and I'll do it until the cows come home. All a matter of knowing how to feather a handle right. And as to that excessive neener, that's MY line. Don't make me demand a Burro crane in the consist. :)
Can we get a couple of R15 rider cars out for the trip?
wayne
That would be the intent ... that's one "nostalgia train" I'd like to see just for the hell of it. And if a Burro crane came along for the right just in case Unca Steve gets "uppity" all the better. :)
Oopsie, didn't read the other post! In that case, let's bring RD335 out (the R15) and a couple of her girlfriends (preferably R21s so I can stick my face out the dropdown window) out for the ride.
wayne
I suppose that many of us start out fully intending to attend. Then for one reason or another we have to change our plans. I love riding on the D types and do so every chance I get. They were the train of my youth - after all. Then in an e-mail one of our fellow subtalkers was talking about his experience trainwatching with his grandfather. Oddly enough my grandfather would take me to trainwatch just a few blocks over. But his memories of his grandfather and my memories of mine reminded me about how important it was for me to spend the holiday with the kids. God knows they won't be so young for ever. Anyway, there'll be other trips and Hoboken isn't far off either.
Absolutely, Steve... even with my grandchildren on the other side of the continent I make time to see them at least once a year, and that opportunity takes absolute priority over everything else. For the October gathering, though, it does look like we have quite a mob planning to attend. With any luck we can even run up to Branford and those of us who are members can show the rest of the gang what a good time we have (the October gathering is on Columbus Day weekend, IIRC, and Branford is open that Monday).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Would that be October 13? I will be flying in on the 12th. Decisions, decisions....
I would love to go up to Branford, as I haven't been there since 1995. We'll see what the consensus is.
Steve, If you get to Branford, give 1227 a hug for me, will you?
I rode that gate car a number of times in regular service in the 1940's on the Lex and also the Myrt. I remember it well because it was one of the first peeling brown painted cars to get the green paint job back then.
Both she a "G" are still togather at Shoreline. I understand the folks from CERA were treated walk thru, i.e. they put the train on the high platform aka "Ave L". I assume that they put the train back on track #51 which means the general public can see Gs nose on our tours.
Next to them is usually service car S-36 ... makes for a nice tour, e.g. trolleys (1890s thru 1930s), service cars & rapid transit.
Mr rt__:^)
I am looking forward to going to Branford, and I have already started collecting a summer and fall fund so I can take trip to Chicago and Springfield this summer and the big trip to New York in October. Then I will be staying five nights in New York, not three, and should be able to get to Branford with some of the guys and see for myself what a treat that place is. I will also be joining some of those clubs you guys are in.
Hey, if you're staying five nights, we could do some additional railfanning during the week. I'll be there through Friday the 18th.
You're on. Any other takers out there?
Sho'nuff! As it happens, I'll be on vacation that week of the 15th through 18th, which is preceded by paid holiday Columbus Day. That's a very desirable day for railfanning because a lot of us are off, the trains are less crowded, and it's full weekday service.
Which means, of course, the Sea Beach will be express along 4th Avenue. It's not the Bridge, but it'll have to suffice.
Plus the diamond Q will be out and about. Monday the 14th would be great. We'll have to take a group photo; I'll be sure to have my wideangle zoom lens to fit everybody in.:-) Bob and Fred will be in the middle, too.
"... I will also be joining some of those clubs you guys are in."
If you want to join the 3/4 Ton Crew for a day we'll let you sign 6688 for Willets Point, but ware an old pair of jeans because you are going to get DIRTY ! Seriously you would have to be a member to work in the shop ... insurance requirements, but then an Assoc. Membership is only $15, sounds like a cheep date to me. Plus you'll get the monthly newsletter for a year ... this month you would see Dougie & I helping MOW Bill put our tie change back on the rails (she's got a small footprint with a powerful hydrolic piston, so if you don't set it up just right to pull the tie out she jumps off the tracks).
Mr rt__:^)
Thurston, I don't want to break your bubble, but Brilliner #8 is at
the SB end of Track #51 as of Monday, when I was there. The "EL"
train was assumably behind it, then 25 & the shunter.
When a certain do gooder, determined a banner had to be straightened
in the Quosnet Carhouse at the end of ops Monday, I saw shunter at
Shephard Switch. Then he had to locate the "NEW" key to gain access
to 25. >HMM, locked changed, wonder why?<
To move the "EL" train to Avenue "L" aka "Wall" Street on Tuesday, it
would facilitate same if #8 were at end of fiftyone.
As for Columbus Day Monday at BERA, hey folks, if it's a go, let us
know, so we can roll out the red carpet. Would also have to find out
about how the day is treated by Power Company? Is it like a weekend
day or weekday on Demand Meter? Could restrict the use of RT/PCC. :-(
If your coming, this Dispatcher, will have to assemble a qualified
operating crew. Hopefully, the rail polisher, will stay away that
weekend.
:-) Sparky
Sparky, I'll be there, you know that!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's a whackjob of an idea - of course a maintenance nightmare but it would get you guys off the demand meter ... a pair of old locomotives ... when discussing the possibility of an electric excursion line around here (not going to happen) that was one of the things we discussed doing to provide power to the line. And wouldn't be all that hard to do if zoning permitted it at Branford. As long as you've got off-road fuel to feed them and someone to clean the pistons, it would be a way of powering the railroad whenever you needed it irrespective of the power company. And you can get JUST the right voltage.
Kevin,
We are the Branford ELECTRIC Railway Association, operating as the
"Shoreline Trolley Museum". If we had other power, we would be just
another "Railway Museum". Perish the thought. The Nutmeg State
don't need another "Railway Museum". Danbury, Naugatuck, Essex,
Willimantic. 'nough difficulty keeping us seperated from the 'point
now.
But I agree, the one piece of equipment missing in our collection is
a combustion engine, when the lights go out. Have had the experience
at "Seashore" on a rainy day. But that's another story.
Also, we are not the "Trolley Museum of New York", we do not tow
Subway Cars with an engine, even if it did service on NYCTA. AKA #9.
When our R/T operates IT IS SELF PROPPELED with 550 volts DC. OK, so
the 3rd rail shoes are inoperative.
:-) Sparky
Oh my ... I fear you misunderstood my intentions (although you seem to have picked up part of it) ... what I meant by a "pair of locomotives" was to put them behind a wall somewhere and use them SOLELY as a power plant all your own to provide electricity for the electric railway, independent of that nasty demand meter. I wasn't suggesting putting them on rails, I was suggesting putting them on the ground for keeps, serving as your own little Con Ed kinda thing. I'd consider a diesel pulling RT cars as the ultimate form of blasphemy too! :)
But they can make cheap power given what you guys pay in Connecticut for "watts for tots" ... roughly 3.5 cents a KW/H ... now how would that compare to your local ratebase? THAT'S where I was going with the cockamamie idea here ... cheap watts.
Kevin,
Gotcha...Way back when we did have a diesel generator, but from what
I've heard, it would never handle a RT car. Your hidden engines,
sound like a stable ideas, except for a pair of minor inconsistencies,
they smokey & they're noisy. Don't think the neigbors, would want
either. [NIMBY] But if we could only tap into theh NYPA cable,
they're laying across the sound for LIPA from New Haven.
That's cheap power, from a not for profit source.
:-) Sparky
"... but Brilliner #8 is at the SB end of Track #51 as of Monday (vs. G & 1227) ..."
Somebody likes it there I guess, but it's also a part of the story we tell, i.e. it's a PCC wanabeee. Brill thought they had a better idea.
Mr rt__:^)
>>>"Somebody likes it there I guess, but it's also a part of the story we tell, i.e. it's a PCC wanabeee. Brill thought they had a better idea. Mr rt__:^)<<<
Now if we could arrange to give it a shower, it would look pretty.
:-) Sparky
John, to answer your question, Columbus Day is a weekday
as far as the power meter goes. That's why, in the past,
when the NY weekend was scheduled for Columbus Day weekend,
we did not run the RT stuff on Monday.
I can do that. 1689 will also get a hug and an affectionate pat on the side. Not to mention a pop or two on one of the trigger caps.
Karl B, if Steve hugs 1227, the BMT Man will be zealous.
:-) Sparky
I know Doug has become quite attached to 1227.
That end platform repair work sealed the romance!
Say John, Have you come across any unusual Kris cars lately?
Attached? Rumor has it that the paddle isn't enough, a steel prybar had to be built just to get Unca Dougie off the car at the end of the day. :)
LOL
Our Curator is hoping that he falls thru the porch on the other end so it gets re-done too < G >
Seriously, she'll be 100 next year, so there's interest at the museum in sprucing her up for a birthday party.
Mr rt__:^)
Karl, I didn't know you and 1227 went back a-ways...I'll give her your regards...;-D
She was on my original list of cars painted green when I first started keeping records. There weren't very many, and I tried to ride them all.
Monday, 14 October. We're open that day, I'm already signed up to operate.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Management does wonderful things :-( I've just been informed that a symposium with which I am heavily involved has been moved to Monday, 14 October (Columbus Day) due to an "executive conflict" so I'd like to suggest that we consider going to Branford on Sunday, 13 October instead. That would solve a couple of issues: first, we wouldn't have any problems with the power situation if we brought out the rapid transit cars and the PCCs, and second, I'd be able to attend :-) Thoughts anyone (especially those coming from way out of town)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris,
We were doing the "Autumn In New York" for several years on Columbus
Day weekend. We changed in 2001 to the last weekend in September,
because many attendees stated conflict with other "Rail Events".
The schedule for 2002 at Branford calls for a "Autumn in New York",
September 28 & 29. BERA.ORG, then "Fares & Schedule".
As for Sunday, 13 October, it is a regular service day. Don't know
how heavy the ridership is. But it is up to how many are coming
and if we can arrange for a Charter. Thurston, mentioned the options
in another post. So best to contact us off line.
:-) Sparky
Sunday would be fine with me. We can always railfan during the week. I'd have to bum a ride with someone; can help pay for gas.
Someone in the 3/4 Ton Crew coming from NYC would be happy to give you a lift. We can work out the details as we get closer to the day.
Mr rt__:^)
Sounds like a plan.
I should be living in Philly by that time and be able to make it up there without too much difficulty, so count me in.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It will be one hell of a wild time if that happens. But, what the heck, the more the merrier.
Live from New York - the Bob and Fred Show!!!
When I heard that there was no A/C Service, I was pissed because that messed up my commute from Nostrand Ave. to Euclid Ave. and that meant I had to take 2 Buses to school which took a hour and 15 mins, and on the A Train it only takes me 15 mins.
Yes it was very inconsiderate of that guy to fall in front of an A train!!
I always love it Dude when you get your dander up and fall into your Don Rickles mode. Keep them coming.
"Live from New York - the Bob and Fred Show!!!"
Oh may GAWD Bless Us All!!! :-)
-Sparky
Come on, you know you love it and can't wait to see it for yourself. But if you show up in October be advised that you are going to have to contribute to the proceedings. We all have to do our fair share to make this one hell of a hoot.
All I want to know, is what they your coming to Branford, so we can
put on the "Toners" Show.
:-) Sparky
I appreciate that, but if you would run that by me again maybe I can understand what nice things you have plaanned for me. I really didn't understand your post. Maybe it's old age.
Guaranteed to have you ROTFLYAO.
Hey Dude, I missed you at the fan trips. You mean you couldn't even make one of them? Sheeeeeeeeetttttttttt. Ok, plan for October when #1 Brighton Express Bob, Steve 8AVEXP and #4 Sea Beach hit town. No excuses. And tell your hermit friend Selkirk to get off his dime and join in too.
When in October, Sea Beach, I will be at the Hoboken Festival on Sat. Oct 5 and maybe longer if I have to babysit our two E8s
The result was not pleasant.
12-9's never are.
Another police investigation!! There does seem to be alot of this going on lately.
Keyword here is seems. Hopefully this isn't a trend toward less reliable subway service.
ratz!! my train is NOT IN SERVICE!!! was it a shove or a suicide???
ratz!! my train is NOT IN SERVICE!!! was it a shove or a suicide???
NJT is well on its way to a record year for suicides, and amtrak is getting a lot too, plus of course the TA. There was a bizarre incident in South Jersey two weeks ago when a Cadillac crashed into a Mickey D's at 3 AM at 100 mph, killing three women employees (it'sopen 24/7). The driver will be charged with some crime, though probably not homicide, because he didn't intend to kill the women; apparently he was trying to kill himself.
Criminally-negligent Manslaughter, according to tonite's Ch.5 News.
wayne
Look at the bright side, Q...with all that practice, police investigators can't help but become more reliable....
Seriously, give it a rest...
Today's NY Times has an article (copied below) about the tremendous cost overruns with the MTA's new headquarters. The print article has a table that lists some of the cost overruns. My attention was drawn to the item "Restroom Upgrades". This was originally projected to be $514,000. They have spent $6.4 million as of January 2002. That works out to $10,000 per toilet, assuming there are an average of 20 toilets on each of the building's 32 floors. I think that tops the Defense Dept's $400 toilet seat.
Sweet Deal for M.T.A. Home Turns Sour, Beset by Cost Overruns and Indictments
By CHARLES V. BAGLI
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority's decision to lease a downtown building at 2 Broadway was heralded in 1998 as an award- winning real estate deal that would provide huge savings on a new home for the agency's far-flung operations.
Now, four years later, the cost of renovating the 32-story building opposite Bowling Green in Lower Manhattan has more than tripled, to more than $400 million. Despite all the work that has been done so far, it is still not finished.
The project has been marked by a startling variety
of problems: huge cost overruns, expensive legal battles, leaky pipes, corruption, weak oversight and accusations of political cronyism. Most recently, a federal grand jury in Brooklyn indicted seven men, including the authority's developer on the project, Frederick C. Contini, on charges accusing them of siphoning off $10 million from the project. Prosecutors are continuing their investigation.
The current and former chairmen of the authority both say the project is still a good deal for the agency.
Public watchdogs, real estate executives and some government officials say, however, that the project has turned into a cautionary tale for a public authority at a time when federal money is pouring in for the reconstruction of Lower Manhattan. According to executives involved in the project, the authority, led by E. Virgil Conway in 1998, cut corners to meet a tight timetable, then lost control in a flurry of no-bid contracts.
"It's a public authority with a great deal of discretion and limited public scrutiny," said Gene Russianoff, a staff lawyer for the Straphangers Campaign. "You look at these numbers and you've got to worry. It's a huge cost overrun."
The authority has blamed most of the problems on its landlord, Tamir Sapir, a Russian immigrant who rose from cabdriver to Manhattan real estate mogul. But last month, Mr. Contini, the very man Mr. Sapir had fired and the authority had hired to run the project, was indicted. The authority paid Mr. Contini, who pleaded not guilty, $10 million in fees and bonuses.
Investigators described Mr. Sapir and the authority as victims of a fraud and money-laundering operation conducted by Mr. Contini; Constantine Vafias, a contractor; and Morris Diminno and four other elevator union officials who are accused of billing the authority for thousands of hours of work that was either never done or was done by nonunion workers.
"The grand jury charged Contini and the other defendants with fleecing the project of approximately $10 million by skimming money through shell companies," said an assistant United States attorney, Dan Alonso.
It was not supposed to be like this. According to internal documents and interviews with executives involved in the project, this is how the project came together — and fell apart:
In 1998, Mr. Conway announced the $345 million sale of the authority's 3.4- acre property at Columbus Circle. On the same day, he signed a contract to lease the entire 1.6-million-square-foot building at 2 Broadway as the future home for the authority, which had been spread over 23 locations.
The Broadway building is owned by Mr. Sapir, who had made a fortune trading oil in Russia. Mr. Sapir, who is regarded as tightfisted, has conceded that he knew little about Manhattan real estate.
Peter S. Kalikow, the current authority chairman, said the agreement started as a great deal, with rents at a very inexpensive $13 a square foot. (Mr. Kalikow, who was not on the authority board when the deal was struck, and Katherine Lapp, the authority's executive director, said in an interview that the investigation and litigation with Mr. Sapir made it difficult to discuss many details.)
The problem was that 2 Broadway needed an extensive overhaul. The authority appointed Mr. Sapir to be the developer, entering into an elaborate contract under which he would be paid up to $7 million in fees and bonuses in rebuilding the lobby, elevators, bathrooms and interiors, work that was then expected to cost $55 million. That amount is now expected to exceed $180 million.
The authority projected that it would outfit the office space for $80 million, a job whose cost is now estimated at $190 million. Fees for bond financing and other costs bring the current total for the project to about $430 million, according to Mr. Kalikow.
Authority executives say hiring the owner, Mr. Sapir, for the job allowed them to avoid the cumbersome and lengthy bidding process required of public authorities. The need for speed drove the deal. The authority needed to move out of Columbus Circle to avoid penalties and to be eligible for an early departure bonus of almost $20 million.
"The M.T.A. would have been forced to bid each segment of the job," said one person who worked on the deal. "It might've taken two years."
Mr. Russianoff said public bidding procedures were established to avoid the very problems that became endemic to 2 Broadway. "It's the whole notion of checks and balances," he said. "A deal of this magnitude should've been subject to transparency and more public review."
In any event, the partnership between the authority and Mr. Sapir quickly turned ugly. To oversee the sale of the Columbus Circle property and the project at 2 Broadway, the authority hired a small law firm headed by John B. Wood, a real estate lawyer who is a friend and neighbor of Mr. Conway, then the authority chairman. By December 1998, Mr. Wood, whose firm eventually received $7.5 million in fees from the authority, was at war with Mr. Sapir, saying the developer was in default for failing to obtain proper insurance and pay certain vendors on the project.
At the same time, Mr. Sapir was battling with Mr. Contini, who was running the 2 Broadway project and the rest of Mr. Sapir's real estate holdings. Despite having operated only a couple of low-income tenements in Jersey City, Mr. Contini was named outstanding developer of the year in 1999 by Nacore, a trade organization, for his role in the 2 Broadway deal. Mr. Sapir said he objected when Mr. Contini demanded a stake in the building on top of his salary and a $1 million bonus. The two men had a bitter parting in January 1999.
Mr. Wood, who did not return calls requesting comment, abruptly dismissed Mr. Sapir that same month and installed Mr. Contini in his place, giving him extraordinary power to sign no-bid contracts. Within a month, according to the indictment, Mr. Contini had signed a contract with Links Construction, which has been described by the United States attorney as a shell company controlled by Mr. Vafias, who was supposed to provide union elevator operators. Mr. Contini signed a document waiving the right to audit the payroll, a move one developer described as a "red light."
"Anyone who would sign that would be insane," said Peter M. Lehrer, the former chairman of Lehrer McGovern Bovis, a large construction management company. "You never waive your right to audit."
Over the next 14 months, Mr. Contini authorized millions of dollars in checks to Links, most of it for work that was never done, according to the indictment. And most of the checks were cashed at City Check Cashing in Jersey City, which the New Jersey Commission of Investigation described in 1988 as a longstanding money-laundering operation for the Genovese crime organization. Last year, a federal grand jury in Brooklyn indicted the man who controls City Check, Robert Santoro, and 32 others in an extensive prosecution of the mob.
A lawyer for Mr. Contini, Michael Rosen, said his client would fight the charges vigorously. He added that the authority had approved everything that went on.
"They knew what they wanted," Mr. Rosen said. "They knew how it had to be done, and now they're complaining."
The authority said it had been unaware of any scheme outlined in the indictment.
The battling between Mr. Wood, the authority and Mr. Sapir grew increasingly fierce. Desperate to obtain a new mortgage, Mr. Sapir signed what turned out to be a temporary settlement with Mr. Wood and the authority in May 1999. The settlement barred Mr. Sapir from his own building, turned over control to Mr. Contini and the authority, and acknowledged Mr. Sapir's responsibility for $120 million in construction costs. The settlement also stipulated that Mr. Sapir could not sue Mr. Contini until the job was completed.
Ms. Lapp, executive director of the authority, insisted that Mr. Sapir was still responsible for the costs and that he had agreed to have Mr. Contini serve as his agent.
Mr. Wood continued to block Mr. Sapir from getting the new mortgage from Credit Suisse First Boston. A new set of potential financiers, CTL Capital and Capital Lease Financing, suggested hiring Alfonse M. D'Amato, the former senator who is now a corporate consultant, to persuade his friend, Mr. Conway, to work out a peace treaty.
Mr. Conway said recently that he recalled getting a call from Mr. D'Amato concerning the bond financing at 2 Broadway, which was being arranged by a mutual friend of theirs at CTL Capital. (Mr. Conway denied in an earlier account receiving a call from Mr. D'Amato about 2 Broadway.)
In the end, Mr. Sapir got a new mortgage and, according to Mr. Sapir and the financiers, they paid Mr. D'Amato $500,000 for his help.
But Mr. Sapir saw a dark purpose in Mr. Wood's actions. In the legal dispute with the authority in State Supreme Court, Mr. Sapir filed papers in which he said the "only logical explanation for the M.T.A.'s conduct is that it was trying to place" Mr. Sapir's company "in default on its loan for the building so that the M.T.A. can acquire the premises outright."
The two sides continued to tangle in court in 2000, and Mr. Sapir wrote to Mr. Wood, Mr. Conway and others demanding an investigation into the cost of elevator work, asbestos removal and other items at 2 Broadway. He demanded that Mr. Contini be removed.
Oversight continued to appear weak or nonexistent. A former inspector general at the authority, Roland Malan, charged in a letter to Mr. Conway in 2000 that the agency had prevented his staff from investigating matters at 2 Broadway. A spokesman for the authority said at the time that the authority refused to give Mr. Malan certain documents out of "security concerns."
Last year, the authority and Mr. Sapir entered another cease-fire accord, after Mr. Kalikow replaced Mr. Conway at the authority. Howard J. Rubenstein, then a public relations adviser to Mr. Sapir, said in an interview that he approached Mr. Kalikow about a settlement. He said Mr. Kalikow indicated that the only solution was to buy the building.
Mr. Kalikow and Mr. Conway, who is now a consultant to Mr. Kalikow, both said the deal allowed the authority to consolidate its operations, paying net rent of about $38 a square foot, close to market rate but far from the initial estimate.
For his part, Mr. Sapir declared that the indictment of Mr. Contini had proven him right. Mr. Sapir has told investigators that some of the same people indicted with Mr. Contini also controlled companies that submitted bills and were paid for $33 million worth of demolition, asbestos and curtain wall work at 2 Broadway. He remains at odds with the authority, an impasse that has cost both sides millions in legal fees.
"It's hard to be a rich man," Mr. Sapir said. "Life was easier when I drove a cab."
all i can say is this really reeks.
$10,000 per toilet is a gross simplification of the issue. When I had the plumbing done in my house, it cost me $20,000 for two bathrooms and a kitchen. What do you know, I paid $10,000 per toilet as well! Of course, I also had every inch of water and waste line removed and new water and waste put in to a completely different location. I'm sure that the MTA is getting royally screwed (as I was) because they are having construction done, this is New York City, and everyone knows you can rip off the government and get away with it. But, they aren't really paying 10K for a $100 toilet.
Royally screwed on a toilet?
I wonder, does that make it a royal flush?
Sorry - it was just too tempting. (Lead me not unto temptation - for I shall surely follow).
Some of those toilets used to explode, spewing contents, when flushed. They fixed that. I guess that's part of the cost over-run.
Look on the bright side, people for years have said that the TA is full of s**t, now they won't be!
and meanwhile, some facillities for employees are all but condemned- overflowing: wastewater, no paper, no running hot and cold water, holes in floors and walls. Even "visitors " (rodents, bugs). Would that be tolerated at 370 Jay, 130 Livingston, etc. Of course not. Many stations have no place for employees to eat their lunch other than platform level br mezzanine level benches or in the booth.
Of course, renovated stations such as Lorimer on the J (among others) have decent facillities. I will not list stations with poor facillities to avoid problems with supervision but supervision has been told by TWU of such problems and some have been repaired.
.
These are new SOTA electromagnetic flux units that compress waste materiel to molecular size utilizing large field coils operating from the 600 VDC third rail. No water waste here: the magnetic field is so powerful that it just it out dry without the use of a tissue. Problem is that it also sucks down anything metallic (like the MRI scanners) and the most intrinsic components were salvadged from 'The cream of the Redbirds.' Once the Redbirds are gone so will the flush.
R142s inspection on #5 line today a sucess. CI Peter
Let me guess - you're another one of those people who had to build a bloody huge capacitor discharge unit to crush coins, washers, pieces of pipe etc. once just to see if it could be done, right?
-Robert King
*DO* consider the source ... it's them pesky "straphangers" again. :)
About five years ago, there was quite a flap when a big cheese at the NYCTA spent something like $35K on a shower stall for his office's private bathroom. I don't remember what if anything happened.
They need the special reinforced bunker toilets for the day after Train Dude sausage and pepper days.
Hasn't anyone figured that the reason for the high cost is that the rest rooms are probably old and non ADA compliant? To make them ADA compliant, the first thing is install a wider door for wheel chairs to pass and with the larger handicapped stalls maybe the walls are knocked down to expand. And since you're doing all this, why not rehab the rest off the facility.
I don't think $10,000 toilet bowls are to blame here.
Bill "Newkirk"
There is another issue. While it is law in Florida other states are putting in 'restroom parity'. If a mens room has two stalls and 2 urinals the women get 4 stalls. This is a problem in many buildings where space is tight.
Potty parity ... dem zany politicos ... now if only they could pay a woman a DOLLAR when a man makes a DOLLAR, we'd be getting
somewhere. Hopefully the toilets make the proper announcements and go "bing bong" before the lid goes down. :)
"This is a Flushing Bound W train. The next stop will be Water Street".
"Stand clear of the closing lid please".
--Mark
You forgot to "bing bong" ... :)
Flushing bound #2 train.
all i can say is this really reeks.
$10,000 per toilet is a gross simplification of the issue. When I had the plumbing done in my house, it cost me $20,000 for two bathrooms and a kitchen. What do you know, I paid $10,000 per toilet as well! Of course, I also had every inch of water and waste line removed and new water and waste put in to a completely different location. I'm sure that the MTA is getting royally screwed (as I was) because they are having construction done, this is New York City, and everyone knows you can rip off the government and get away with it. But, they aren't really paying 10K for a $100 toilet.
Royally screwed on a toilet?
I wonder, does that make it a royal flush?
Sorry - it was just too tempting. (Lead me not unto temptation - for I shall surely follow).
Some of those toilets used to explode, spewing contents, when flushed. They fixed that. I guess that's part of the cost over-run.
Look on the bright side, people for years have said that the TA is full of s**t, now they won't be!
and meanwhile, some facillities for employees are all but condemned- overflowing: wastewater, no paper, no running hot and cold water, holes in floors and walls. Even "visitors " (rodents, bugs). Would that be tolerated at 370 Jay, 130 Livingston, etc. Of course not. Many stations have no place for employees to eat their lunch other than platform level br mezzanine level benches or in the booth.
Of course, renovated stations such as Lorimer on the J (among others) have decent facillities. I will not list stations with poor facillities to avoid problems with supervision but supervision has been told by TWU of such problems and some have been repaired.
.
These are new SOTA electromagnetic flux units that compress waste materiel to molecular size utilizing large field coils operating from the 600 VDC third rail. No water waste here: the magnetic field is so powerful that it just it out dry without the use of a tissue. Problem is that it also sucks down anything metallic (like the MRI scanners) and the most intrinsic components were salvadged from 'The cream of the Redbirds.' Once the Redbirds are gone so will the flush.
R142s inspection on #5 line today a sucess. CI Peter
Let me guess - you're another one of those people who had to build a bloody huge capacitor discharge unit to crush coins, washers, pieces of pipe etc. once just to see if it could be done, right?
-Robert King
*DO* consider the source ... it's them pesky "straphangers" again. :)
About five years ago, there was quite a flap when a big cheese at the NYCTA spent something like $35K on a shower stall for his office's private bathroom. I don't remember what if anything happened.
Most definitely. Though I suppose it is an interesting concept.
What is a blogger?
What is a blogger?
A blog is a sort of online diary, usually a stream-of-consciousness type of thing.
Exactly what purpose sorting them by subway stop is supposed to serve, I couldn't say, but it's a clever idea.
You think we should give them a heads up that the route symbol bullets are trademarked by the MTA or just wait until the MTA legal dept catches up to them?
You think we should give them a heads up that the route symbol bullets are trademarked by the MTA or just wait until the MTA legal dept catches up to them?
I'd go for the second option. Besides, is the MTA particularly vigorous in trying to protect its trademarks? Somehow I suspect they're not.
>>Besides, is the MTA particularly vigorous in trying to protect its trademarks? <<
I am sure if they find out about something they go after it with a vengence. AFter all, the licensing fees can bring in some nice bucks.
Yeah, I had some time on my hands (kinda rare these days) so I sent them a short note asking if they were aware they might be violating copyright and trademark laws.
This is what they wrote back:
"Allan:
Thanks for the legal tip. We did consider that when we first started building the site -- that's why we drew our own subway map instead of lifting theirs. I suppose they could argue that the color scheme is the same, or that we used the same font to create the station logos. But I think we're too small (and have zero money) to bother sending a legal team after. At least I hope so.
Thanks for visiting!
-- Mike"
For their sake I hope they are right.
I suppose they could argue that the color scheme is the same, or that we used the same font to create the station logos. But I think we're too small (and have zero money) to bother sending a legal team after. At least I hope so.
They might be right. On the other hand, Disney tried to make a Florida nursery school, a small operation with only about a dozen kids, remove some hand-drawn Disney characters from its walls. The resulting bad publicity forced the Mouse to back off.
As far as this situation is concerned, I would tend to think that the TA is less aggressive about trademark protection because licensing probably accounts for an insignificant portion of its revenues. Contrast that to a company like Disney, which basically lives and dies by its trademarks.
They only barely changed the MTA map. If they had drawn their own, I doubt they would have had the same swollen Manhatten, the shrunken S.I. and the skewed off north perspective. But who cares about that, I just wonder if they realize how much of a pain it is going to be keeping up with major service changes? Especially if the folks on this site keep their eye on it ;)
It would have been easier (and less risky) if they had used links to the MTA site instead.
You think we should give them a heads up that the route symbol bullets are trademarked by the MTA or just wait until the MTA legal dept catches up to them?
Urban myth. Show my any proof or indication that the route symbols are trademarked. The MTA doesn't even seem to claim a common law trademark (that is, without the circle-R) by placing a "TM" along with the symbols.
Nor, even on their web site as on the schedule page, do they show any claim such as "the route letter symbols are a trademark of Metropolitan Transportation Authority."
If they really were trademarks, the MTA would have to defend them once they learn of an infringement or risk losing them on a claim of genericness.
The MTA has filed for trademark protection for SOME of its line symbols, as of February 7 of this year.
The application for the A Line (for example) specifies "The mark consists of a white letter A within a blue circle."
The mark has been assigned to an examining attorney. This means that a PTO attorney will give an opinion on whether the mark is registrable with or without modifications to the appliation.
The numbers/letters for which I find current applications are:
A, D, F, 1, 4, 7
That's all. Wanna speculate on why those and not others? This is a tacit acknowledgment these are not copyrightable.
Even if so, the mark(s) will be put up for an opposition period--a period when those interested can argue that the mark should be registered.
Interesting.
These must be the "showcase lines" (as is being discussed on another thread).
The BASIS of trademark is the "elimination of marketplace confusion." I really don't see how someone in Marseilles as an example (there's no subway in Marseilles) riding the A train running along Rue de Sainte Catherine would be the least bit concerned that perhaps they might be on Eighth Avenue in Manhattan instead. Sounds like the MTA could save some serious taxpayer dollars by shedding some Counsel staff ...
The MTA is seeking two trademark registrations for each of A, D, F, 1, 4, 7.
One is for "Transportation of passengers by rapid transit system." so, if the trademark is granted, conductors will have to announce:
"This is the F brand of rapid transit service train. The F is a registered trademark of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. You are granted a non-exclusive license to ride the F® train. You may tell others you have ridden the F® train on payment on the appropriate license fee. The next stop is Neptune Avenue brand of non-limited access urban highway. Neptune Avenue is a registered trademark of the City of New York. Thank you and have a nice day.
The other registration is for: "Clothing, namely tee-shirts, sweatshirts, tank tops, caps, socks, ties, jackets and underwear."
I think that's the trademark the MTA is really interested in.
Well, don't mind me if I think it's still a dumbass idea. But if they DO get it, I'd want to see conductors being required to dot every tee and cross every eye with such announcements. :)
Couldn't some old-time maker of billard balls sue the MTA for trademark infrngement for all those solid IRT number/color combos?
:-)
Not all of them match the billiard ball colors except perhaps for the 6.
IIRC billiard ball colors are:
1 - yellow
2 - blue
3 - red
4 - violet
5 - orange
6 - green
7 - brown
8 - black
9-15 follow the same pattern as 1-7.
And the 3 (Red)
That announcement is too long. It will eventually be automated to:
This is a Manhattan bound F train. Use of the F train and its subsidiaries, connections, transfers and stations without the express written consent of MTA New York City Transit is a 15 yard penalty. The next stop on this train is Smith / 9th Streets. Stand clear of the closing doors please".
--Mark
(The BASIS of trademark is the "elimination of marketplace confusion." I really don't see how someone in Marseilles as an example (there's no subway in Marseilles) riding the A train running along Rue de Sainte Catherine would be the least bit concerned that perhaps they might be on Eighth Avenue in Manhattan instead. Sounds like the MTA could save some serious taxpayer dollars by shedding some Counsel staff ...)
The MTA has been making some significant dollars selling T-shirts with the line logos. They've become someone trendy with the trendy set. The F is the biggest seller -- remeber a couple of years back I had trouble getting one, an X-mas present for a niece, because it kept selling out.
I think this is about T-shirts. I guess the N train isn't "in," though I'm surprised the "L" isn't on the list.
By the way, everybody's wearing NYPD and NYFD baseball caps these days. If you want the official one, however, go to the Citystore on the ground floor of the Municipal Building at 1 Center Street. I got some as Christmas presents this year. I thought they'd be sold out, but few people know about this store, and everyone was buying the knockoffs on the street.
Why does the Q local not stop at 23rd street anymore ?
How stupid is the fact that neither the express or the local make stops between 14th st and 34th st.
You people better check your maps - you are making commuting absolute hell.
Not to mention the construction at the atlantic ave station.
Riders have to get off at Pacific Street and take a shuttle that is not even waiting there.
Means another half hour wait.
Took me 3 1/2 hours to get home yesterday for a 50 min trip.
this happens everyday.
SOMEONE WAKE UP !
THE Q LOCAL MUST STOP AT 23rd STREET - y the change ?
very dumb !
Whoever is in charge of these decisions should be fired -
Have you written to the MTA? Just FYI, since you are new here, the powers that be are not typically reading this board for complaints.
The "Q Local" is only local in Brooklyn. That's all it's ever been.
---Andrew
uhhh your the dumb person here pal.the Q has never stopped at 23rd st.the only exception was when there was no N or R for a month and they made the Q and W run local in Manhattan with the Q replacing the R in Queens.The Q is Broadway Express-Brighton Local.there's also the that's Brighton Exp.but since 10/28/01,the Q resumed express in Manhattan.so i dunno what in blazes your talkin about but please get up to date.if you want local serivce,take the N or R and that takes care of that.
>>Why does the Q local not stop at 23rd street anymore ?
How stupid is the fact that neither the express or the local make stops between 14th st and 34th st.
You people better check your maps - you are making commuting absolute hell.
Not to mention the construction at the atlantic ave station.
Riders have to get off at Pacific Street and take a shuttle that is not even waiting there.
Means another half hour wait.
Took me 3 1/2 hours to get home yesterday for a 50 min trip.
this happens everyday.
SOMEONE WAKE UP !
THE Q LOCAL MUST STOP AT 23rd STREET - y the change ?
very dumb !
Whoever is in charge of these decisions should be fired - <<
Tell me - have you been living in a cave for the past 10 months?
When the north side of the Manhattan Bridge closed last year, the Q was switched over to the Broadway line and was a Manhattan Express since that time. It never stopped at 23rd St (even when it was on 6th Av) except if there was a problem on the express track or delay in local service. Therefore there could not have been a change becauze there wasn't any service like that in the first place (at least not in the last 10 years).
If the local that you happened to be on skipped 23rd St recently it is probably because there was a need for a service adjustment where that train might have been running late or there was a large gap in service ahead of it. If it was about a year ago then it was because there was restoration work being done on the local stations of the Broadway line which required the trains to skip those stops for saftey reasons. That service change was well publicized in advance.
As Dave Pirmann (our webmaster) stated - you are new here and I want to give you some friendly advice.
Get your facts straight first before you start running off at the mouth. The total combined knowledge of the regulars on this board on the NYC Subway could fill a large library.
This is a very friendly board but let me assure you, if you start trouble your stay will be very short.
My apolgies - I have to correct something I said.
The Q was a local in Manhattan during the time that the N & R were not running after 9/11/01. But that was only temporary service and service on the Q was back to express service after a bit more than a month.
First off, THIS IS NOT MTA NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT. NO ONE here decides the way the subways run (much as some of us would like to) The MTA has NO affilation with this board. Write to them if you have a problem with Q service.
But before you do that, maybe you oughtta know a little something about the Q train:
What Q local stopping at 23rd Street? The only time the Q/Brighton Local train stopped at 23rd Street was when the N and R trains were suspended during the first six weeks after the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center. Because no trains were allowed to go near the wreckage, the N and R were completely suspended. In Queens, the W ran full time in Queens to replace the N while the circle-Q was extended to Continental Avenue to replace the R. Both the circle-Q and W made all local stops in Manhattan, but went over the Manhattan Bridge, and weekday diamond-Q express service was unchanged. In Brooklyn, the J was extended to Bay Ridge to replace the R, while the M ran full time to Coney Island to replace the M. But when the N and R were restored at the end of October, the J, M, Q and W returned to normal operation. But that was the only time the Q stopped at 23rd Street. It NEVER stopped at 23rd Street under normal operations and it doesn't need to.
i already touched on this with my message,talk about writing about something not worth mentioning when it already has been
Sorry, didn't see your post until after posting mine.
In the time after 9/11, did the Q diamond operate? I thought all only the circle Q ran? Am I correct?
Yes, the diamond Q also ran during that time. It made express stops in Manhattan and Brooklyn while the circle Q and W ran local in Manhattan. Both resumed express operation in Manhattan once N and R service resumed on October 28.
I rode on a few diamond Qs while in the city last fall. It was great to have Broadway express service back again.
Hey, dood! You think you've got it bad? There's no direct service to Broadway, 6th or 8th Avenues from Dupont Circle either! It takes forever to take the Red Line to Union Station, then that Acela shuttle to Penn Station. And, it's a real nuisance having to pay separate fares and I can't use my SmarTrip there! Find out for me when they'll have direct service. Thanks.
LMAO!!!
They should make our SmarTrips work on other subways. It came along first, why not make it the universal card. I wonder if the CTA Smart Card is compatible with SmarTrip.
You should try driving through the Springfield interchange, up the beltway, pay tolls on I95 with ezpass, across the Outerbridge crossing into Bay Ridge Brooklyn, Find parking in Cobble Hill and hop on the Broadway local that WILL stop at the Madison Sq Park station of 23rd Street.
Letters on trains don't tell me anything. I'll take a Broadway local, Sea Beach express, 6th Ave local anytime.
You should try driving through the Springfield interchange
If you're a member of the No Homers, then there's a nice bypass tunnel you can use.
lol. How many Springfield are there in the USA?
>>>Letters on trains don't tell me anything. I'll take a Broadway local, Sea Beach express, 6th Ave local anytime.<<<
Be thankful for small favors, we do have numbers & letters, not just
colors. How could we differentiate between overlapping services on
the same routes. [ex: the dark green bullets of the Lexington Avenue
4,5,6 & the light green of the G. They're all green and nobody refers
to the Brooklyn~Queens Crosstown, it's the "G" or for many still the
"GG"] [Yeah, take the green line to Yankee Stadium or the orange line,
dependent if your east or west in Manhattan] 'nough said.
:-) Sparky
Prior to 7/22/01 the Q ran up 6th Avenue on the express track. It did not stop at 23rd St. Following the closure of the A/B tracks on the Manhattan Bridge, the Q was sent up B'Way. Since 7/22/01 the N & R have been on the local tracks and the Q & W have been on the express tracks in Manhattan (AFAIK). There is no express platform at 23rd St. Am I missing something here?
There seems to be a real difference in expectations of A and B division riders as to how they like their local and express. A division riders don't seem to mind getting on a local, transferring across a platform to an express, and then back to a local. B division riders seem to want to wait at their platform and let trains pass by until just the right train that will pick them up at their station, drop them off at their destination, and hopefully pass all the stations in between. I'm not trying to insult B division riders, I think it probably has to do with how B division is a confusing spaghetti bowl of lines, with poorer tranfer choices, and much merging and splitting of traffic.
On the other hand, I am willing to insult one particular B division rider. ;)
Aw Go ahead, insult B division riders.
I don't think they would understand it anyway (saying this from a distance).
IRT Rules!!!!
The IRT was built with the intention that you would take a local to the nearest express stop, then take the express to the closest express stop, and then change to a local again to get to your final destination. And it works well that way.
BMT lines do the same thing mostly.
When the IND was built, it was carefully designed to be of no benefit to change from a local to an express in Manhattan (Occupied Boros had their own locals that were not supposed to ever go to Manhattan). There is no advantage in switching from a local to an express, and people don't bother.
Elias
The IRT was built with the intention that you would take a local to the nearest express stop, then take the express to the closest express stop, and then change to a local again to get to your final destination. And it works well that way.
Most intraborough IRT riders (who probably make up the majority of IRT riders, certainly outside rush hour and excluding the 7) don't do that. Anyone going from a local stop to another local stop will just stay on a local unless an express happens to pull in at an intermediate express stop, and even then many will stay on the local. Most passengers going from a local stop to an express stop will similarly stay on the local unless an express pulls in somewhere. From an express stop to a local stop, we take whichever comes first.
I can tell you that if I'm going from, say, 86th/Broadway to Times Square, I won't change at 72nd unless I see an express there or I have reason to believe that an express will arrive within two minutes (e.g., I waited six minutes for the local at 86th and no express passed by). When I break this rule, the express that eventually arrives almost never catches up with the local I had been riding, and sometimes it doesn't catch up with the one behind it.
I can tell you that if I'm going from, say, 86th/Broadway to Times Square, I won't change at 72nd unless I see an express there or I have reason to believe that an express will arrive within two minutes (e.g., I waited six minutes for the local at 86th and no express passed by). When I break this rule, the express that eventually arrives almost never catches up with the local I had been riding, and sometimes it doesn't catch up with the one behind it.
I'm not as familiar with the 7th Ave/Bway line, but on Lexington I almost always get off at the express station after boarding at a local station. For example if I get on Canal and am heading uptown, I will almost always get off at Union Square for the 4/5. But that's because you are almost guaranteed an express on Lex, and you will almost always pass a few 6's. However, on most other lines, I will only get off if the express is there, but I think most people do that. It would be foolish to get of a train that is already there, to wait for a train that may or may not come.
On Lexington though it is very low risk, it almost always works out.
It depends on the time of day and how far you're going. I doubt it's often worth it to change at 14th if you're only going to 59th. If you're going to 86th, it's probably worth it during rush hour, but it's probably not worth it at 11pm, especially if an express passed your local at Astor.
it's probably not worth it at 11pm, especially if an express passed your local at Astor.
YEah at night, it would be foolish, but at most times during the day it works. As for passing an express at Astor, and it pulling out before the change at Union Square, It probably wouldn't pay if only going to GC or 59th. But I must say that the 6 runs often enough that you may still pass a 6 between GC an US, and often do.
And often an express will pass while I'm on the local between 72nd and 42nd. But more often, no express passes. If an express does past, I've lost up to two minutes. If I get off at 72nd to wait for an express, it might not come for eight minutes or more.
If I'm hoping to catch an express at 72nd, I'll often board the last car and watch out the back window, or run across the platform, look up the track, and run back across (I guess that's one advantage to the ultra-narrow platforms there).
In any case, I can tell you that most West Side IRT passengers stay on the local past express stations, except at 42nd (which is enough of a destination and a transfer point that there's a major turnover of passengers there, especially off-peak). Many, I'm sure, could use the express.
I don't think service is as good on the west side line as it is on Lex (even before 9/11), so the concept probably doesn't work as well as on Lex.
As a frequent Lexington Line rider (my home express station is 86th), I will take an express train almost always (except maybe late nights) if my destination is south of 42nd street. Lexington expresses run often and do often catch up with the locals. For example, one summer I worked at Bleeker street, and I would always change at 14th for an express.
On other lines, I will often be less likely to do this. For example, on the 8th avenue line south of 59th street, there's little advantage for waiting for an A if the C is there (the A only skips three stops in that span).
In the outer boroughs, if there is an express, it's usually worth it to take it. Queens Boulevard it saves quite a bit of time. Same for the Brighton express.
But you live at an express station -- and, in particular, at an express station where you have to decide in advance which level to wait on.
If you were starting, say, at 96th, I think you'd be less likely to get off after one stop and go downstairs.
As for your comments about other boroughs, expresses are often overrated. Read the TA's timetables! If, say, you just miss a Manhattan-bound A at Broadway-ENY, and a C pulls in a minute later, take it unless it's rush hour -- it's not worth waiting nine minutes in order to gain back about five.
If you were starting, say, at 96th, I think you'd be less likely to get off after one stop and go downstairs.
This is especially true at stations where you have to decide which LEVEL or PLATFORM you are going to wait at before you even begin to wait for the train, such as 86th on the Lex or Penn Station on the Lex or 8th Ave line. Most people will probably just go either to the express platform or local platform, right away before they enter the station.
When the IND was built, it was carefully designed to be of no benefit to change from a local to an express in Manhattan (Occupied Boros had their own locals that were not supposed to ever go to Manhattan). There is no advantage in switching from a local to an express, and people don't bother
You are right the IND was built that way. (just look at 6th AVe, there is almost no benefit of being on an express) Penn Station on the IND was built in the inconvenient "can't run across the platform for the express" way just to have people avoid doing this. The funny thing is that the IRT had the same idea for that station so many years earlier. Penn is one station even the IRT didn't want the switching to occur.
Those two stations, and Atlantic IRT, were set up to discourage passengers from transferring between local and express specifically where the designers expected heavy boarding volumes due to the railroad terminals. In all three cases, a traditional express station with island platforms between the local and express tracks is one stop away.
Q line is an express. Always has, always will be. Has been on the 6th Ave, and it's the same on Broadway. 23rd Street is a LOCAL stop. That's why N's and R's stop there, and not Q's or diamond Q's. That is why all of those Q's just ran by you. If the wind that a train kicks up can speak, it'd be blowing raspberries and laughing at you. If you want to take the Q, try riding the N or the R to DeKalb or Canal and transfer. It's so seemple, isn't it not? This isn't the pre-unification era, sir. There is something called free transfers!
How can someone living IN CANADA, 4000 km away from the nearest NYC subway railhead still understand this concept while you, living in New York City itself, can't? I seriously find that incredibly unfathomable.
-j!
Oh, he's a squawker.
But, as Dave said, the Transit upudie ups, don't read this board,
so IMHO till 2004 & full Manny B Service and I know I'll catch flack
for this. But here goes make the (Q) the (QT) via the tunnel,
when the Q Diamond operates. Off hours, when only the (Q) operates, make it the (QB) with local service in Manhattan. That way you'll have Brigton Service to local Broadway station in Manhattan, 24/7 North of Canal Street to 57th Street.
Then to increase the express service on Broadway, have the (N) run
express and via the Manny B except late nights, weekends when the
(W) doesn't run.
:-) Sparky
While i was working at Queens Plaza on R,V line doing Rapid Load Check. Passergers at Queens Plaza are driving me crazy because they keep asking why the G line didn't arrive or what time they arrive? I told them the last G train leave at 0547am at Queen Plaza heading to 9st/Smith St & those passergers has no idea what is going on with the G line & they didn't notice about the G line cutback to 23st/ely st because of New V line since 12/16/01. What is going on here & look to me like passergers don't know how to read the freaking services change.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Can you say "geese on a golf course"? :-)
An interesting observation from my 10 years riding Metro here in DC is I can easily tell who the visitors from NYC are versus from places without a subway system. The folks who don't have a subway back home just accept things as they are. The NYC folks tend to whine about everything they're told. "Where do I change for the express?" "What do you mean there isn't an express? Who makes a subway without an express?" "Where's the token booth?" "Why should I have to use a farecard? I just want to go there and back. How should I know if I'll be going again later?"
I think there's just something about many NYers that prevents them from adjusting to anything that is a departure from their routine, or at least what they "were told" by someone who is as clueless as they are. When I lived in Forest Hills, there were brain freezes on a massive scale when the N replaced the EE. Similar hysteria when double letters went away -- then people were wandering around, dazed, wanting to know where to catch the GG train and refusing to accept that the G was the exact same train. "But I saw a train go by on the other side that said GG!" Y'all can just imagine what it was like when the N & R swapped terminals. I was gone by the time the E moved out of 179th, but I can just imagine how that freaked people.
As a passenger, at least I can always resort to just cussing-out folks who won't accept reality and choose to try arguing the point. I always feel a bit of sympathy for transit workers who can't exercise that option.
The funniest is when the conductor says suddenly "This train is going out of service, please get off and wait for the southbound X, this train etc."
People mill about the train, som on it, some off it, asking the people around them, and ALWAYS the conductor when he walks by "Is this train REALLY going out of service?" even thought they know it is.
Funny people, NYers. Stubborn as hell and sharp as razors, except when a train's going out of service or no longer stops at a particular station. :)
Every time I ride the 3 north from 14th, somebody gets a very puzzled look when the train starts moving north. Announcements are usually good and platform signage is up-to-date; some people just refuse to pay attention.
Once in a while at work in a booth, I still get some people who ask for a weekend 1/2 fare return trip ticket.
Wasn't that the return ticket you get when you pay a $1.50 for a token with your "yellow senior card"?
About 22 years ago when I first came down, there was a weekend half fare program. Pay 50 cents for a token and get a return trip ticket. This was for all people. A way to get more people to ride the trains I guess.
Good idea. But some people would use their ticket then and there to go in (without using their token) Or they would also take the token and ticket and walk to the next station or another entrance at that station to use the ticket.
They knew how to get into the system without paying a fare.
I remember that.
One day I *had* a token, and all I wanted was the ticket.
but he wouldnt give it to me.
So I told him I didn't wan't to ride his old subway train anyway, and that I wanted my money back for my token.
After that trans action I turned around and said I changed my mind again, and wanted to ride after all, and bought a token and got a ticket.
Sheesh!
Elias
And there were people who bought their tokens on Sunday for the week and expected tickets for every token bought. Tickets were being used. But no increase in actual fares. I liked it better on the bus. You just put a quarter in the farebox.
If this were the stone age, those people would have been eaten by wolves and bears by now!
By protecting people from things that would otherwise kill them like infection, no railings, crime, accidents, heart attacks, colesterol, animals, milk, cars, bad buildings, filth, etc. We have weakened the human species to be dependent on things that weren't always there and might not be in the future. We have almost stopped natural selection (premature birth, dieses, incompetent parents, lack of food, attacks). If things don't happen to wipe out the weak and dumb what will this planet come to? By allowing them to live we hurt the human population and the gene pool. Most people would not be able to live without the technology of today (PDAs Fattness, weak hearts, cars, job contacts, makeup (female players), medical supplements, transportation, etc).
Imagine if you were born a low IQ, dumb, dependent on something person. Your life would be hell because your ancestors weren't wiped out by natural selection. Mother Nature created the system. Though it is brutal, inhumane by todays standards, bloody, cruel it has worked for millions of years. Now that humans have all but stopped it, this world is filling with parasites who hurt themselves and others.
So? You want us to build more lions?
No, eliminate all the things that keep humans alive. Go back to the days where sheer strength is what kept you alive not your social skils.
Like electric motors, internal combustion engines, and steam engines? The plow? The wheel?
On the other hand, poor grammar and spelling can still land you in a low paying job. So a failure to demonstrate competence can still have some drawbacks.
I really need to install Microsoft Word.
Mother Nature created the system.
Humans might exist because of Mother Nature, but it is the duty of man to go before Mother Nature and bluntly tell her: "FUCK YOU."
Sorry, but strength is not what gives humans the evolutionary advantage over other species, our brains do. While a cheetah can outrun a human, a human can build and drive a car to outrun a cheetah. It is the duty of man to do everything possible to triumph over our worst enemy: nature. Nature gives us diseases and birth defects and people who are weak and dumb. Man goes against nature to try to eliminate these things.
Mother Nature created the system.
Man will destroy the system
DOWN WITH MOTHER NATURE!!!
Like the Parkay margarine said:
IT'S NOT NICE TO FOOL WITH MOTHER NATURE!!!!
Margarine is fooling with mother nature
So is butter.
4 letters
AIDS
People pick fights. Even if they have never seen a subway they will want to know why there isn't a train on the track waiting for them? "What do you mean I HAVE TO WAIT?"
I was gone by the time the E moved out of 179th, but I can just imagine how that freaked people.
Oh boy, do I remember that. On December 11th, 1988, I stood at Jamaica Center with a bizarre sense of joy as I watched people exit the E train, looking around as if they've arrived into a new world, with the same dumb expression uttered from their lips: "This isn't Jamaica".
This despite TV commercials, newspaper ads, new maps installed on the trains 6 weeks before the change, dozens of announcements on the PA at Union Turnpike about the new "service patterns", all the trains carrying proper signage, etc.
The only blessing was that most of these people wanted to get to 169th St. to x-fer to busses, transfers which were now moved to JC.
This reminds me of how dumbfounded people were (and still are) of the V!
True, but by June 1989, people had completely adjusted to the new services. Only some slight grumbling about having the slow, infrequent R train as the only local on Hillside Ave. remained.
Lucky they had you around to set 'em straight.
Maybe paste a sign in your back that reads:
The G doesn't stop here anymore. Ask me why.
There are plenty of people who still think that the F runs via 53rd St and get upset when the see 21st, Roosevelt Island. At Lexington Avenue they look to transfer to the 6 (let's not mention the MetroCard transfer to the 59th St station - that would only make matters worse.)
My grandma, whoses 79, learned after 1 ride! by herself! that she needs to transfer to the E at Union Turpike for 53st.(true story!)LOL
That must be it. You'd be surprised how ignorant people can be these days. Everytime I get off at Roosevelt Ave/Jackson Heights to get to the 7, I always manage to catch a person sometimes saying: Does the G stop here?
"No," you can politely explain, "the G cannot. It is but an abstract symbol, one of 26 in our alphabet. However, a train with a label marked G does stop here on the weekends."
:0)
Do people still ask at Ft Hamilton Pkway about the NX?
Why would they? The NX made no stops between Stillwell and 59th. The Sea Beach line has no express stops.
Just how long did people adjust to the Chrystie St. changes? It seems they adjusted quicker to more radical changes than these Queens Blvd. morons.
Ron, I think it is time to up your meds again.
Acutally that is polite AND very rude at the same time! LOL Impressive, though suposedly it is a oximoron.
>>>What is going on here & look to me like passergers don't know how to read the freaking services change.<<<
They know how to read. They're just telling everyone in uniform,
[the suits downtown won't listen, so your visual and have to take it] bring back our "G" [GG] service 24/7 and PLUCK the F---KING "V". They're Greenpointers... :-), :-), :-)
Sparky, a Greenpoint Resident
At least they aren't asking about the GG!
Well my mother does still accediently say GG on occasion. She would use it daliy from when she was 3 till 13.
Well my mother does still accediently say GG on occasion. She would use it daliy from when she was 3 till 13
Heck - I still say "Lexington Ave Local" instead of "6" , "Sea Beach" instead of "N", "Canarsie Line" instead of "L", and so on...good thing nobody asks me for directions ;-)
I still say "West side IRT" rather than 1/2/3 or 7th Ave line (the latter striking me as silly for a line that is under 7th Ave for far less distance than it is under Broadway).
I never tell people to take the "West Side" or the "7th Ave line" when I give tourists directions. I just refer to it as the #1, #2 or #3 line. Sometimes they get confused with directions. Especially when they don't know the line themselves. If they refer to it as the "red line", I tell them to make sure it's the #1, #2 or #3.
>>>"If they refer to it as the "red line", I tell them to make sure it's the #1, #2 or #3."<<<
What if they refer to the "green line", do you tell them to make sure
it's the #4, #5 or #6. What if they want the Brooklyn~Queens Crosstown, it's a "green" line with a "G".
:-) Sparky
First I ask where are they going. Then I tell them what train to take.
For what its worth, some of the on board contribute to the problems. Many is the local 7 train I've been on that announces the transfers at 74th/Bwy as "E,F,G,R".
:-) Andrew
This V thing wasn't really ever thought out logistically!?
Yes it was, but the vast stupidity, childishness and arrogance of Queens Blvd IND riders was not accounted for. The media and pseudo transit rider advocacy groups who keep harping about the problems with the new service pattern don't help. These people should be helping the TA to get the message through to these riders that the changes are permanent and that they must be gotten used to.
Not to defend these people, but maybe they've seen the G stop there on weekends or evenings, and ASSume it will be available other times as well.
What kills me is observing people at Queens Plaza who let E after E go by, looking annoyed that the F STILL hasn't come. If I try to tell any such person on the Manhattan-bound platform- during the week, anyway- that the V against the wall will serve all their F-train needs, I receive a blank or confused look.
A similar condition exists at 5th and Lexington. On weekends, I've gotten off an E in one direction as another one is passing the other way- and some of the same people remain on the platform. The reaction is usually along the lines of:
"Whaddya MEAN the F doesn't run here anymore?!";
"You tellin' me I gotta change at 7th Avenue for the D?!";
"How'm I gonna get to 179th now?!"
"When did THIS start? I go this way every day and never heard a WORD about it!"
-and, from the slightly better-informed:
"Whaddya MEAN the V doesn't run here on weekends?!"
Last weekend I still observed people getting off a Queens-bound F at 57th/6th intent on backtracking to Rockefeller Center so they could get "the RIGHT F train."
But then, there are still people who won't get on a 2 in Manhattan because they need a local stop-
Last weekend I still observed people getting off a Queens-bound F at 57th/6th intent on backtracking to Rockefeller Center so they could get "the RIGHT F train."
That is hilarious and shows how stupid people can be.
They are preoccupide.
Not to defend these people, but some New Yorkers only ride the subways once in a blue moon. Of course they probably didn't read the newspapers announcing these changes. As a result, by the time they use these trains, they'll be utterly lost.
I agree, and these people also don't have the luxury of "sub talk"
There is a song played on lite music stations called: "This Train Don't Stop Here Anymore". I think Elton John sings it. The TA should announce at Queens Plaza: "Attention, customers for F service (and G service weekdays), then play the song!
People are morons. If I'm a conductor, I tell them the new service pattern, and if they continue to act like morons, I simply tell them "You're on your own".
It just that some people have a pathlogical addiction to annoy people. They expect that a subway should stop infront of their house, and they think 2+2=5. There are some people that simply think that those who serve them are their servents, but that isn't true (Sorry, I copyed that from my principle (retired navy dude)).
This problem was bound to happen because of the silly insistence to run the G to Forest Hills on weekends. People see G signs at Queens Plaza and assume it's still there 24/7. Time to cut the G back to Court Square at all times, so all "G" signs on Queens Blvd can be removed.
Perhaps it would be a good idea for station entrance signs to prominently display only weekday services, with weekend and night service in "fine print."
This is precisely the reason, BTW, that a number of us have suggested that, come September, the W run through the tunnel 24/7.
Not that again. The confusion caused by running the W thru the tunnel on weekends is nothing compared to the uproar & inconvenience of routing the heavily used West End line through the tunnel and not over the more heavily desired bridge.
I'm just pointing out the inconsistency in your positions, that's all.
I wish you'd stop insulting the passengers of the West End line.
On one of the other boards that I haunt (I participate here and on Harry's but haunt elsewhere) someone is saying that they rode on a #6 redbird this morning, lead car 9065 operating local on the Lex.
Here is the quote:
"It was an honest-to-goodness 6. I was in first car #9065. No strange (re-route) PA announcements (I know that's not saying much), and all rollsigns said "6" on them. No unusual crowding on platforms either."
Can this be possible? Are we getting some back?
I hope so...
Sounds like I better get my toochus. culo, or whatever applies in some local tongue inNYC back to NYC; I've planned on it for months' As much as I hated those cars when I was young because they repaced my beloved High V and Low V they've become quite the piece of history and I should pay them my last respects while I can.
Why would they bring some back? Hasn't the MTA spent enough effort getting rid of them. I take your word for it, though the concept seems dumb (except railfans, of course) when the MTA has spent millions on the R142A.
I don't think so. I worked the No.6 Monday and it was mostly R142A's with R62A's on the yard.
Also at Night because of track work some No.5 train run Local in Manhattan with Brooklyn Bridge being the last stop but thats after 10PM.
I just found out from PBD SR that there was a Redbird running on the No.6 Line out of Parkchester today. The train came from the No.5 Line. It only did a 1 or 2 trips.
Why? Were they short of a train or something?
Probly the (5) line had no place to stash it.
yeeeeeeeeesssssssssss!!!!!!!
Freak Error!
This time it was a train of R-26/28/29's with dropsash windows in some cars!
The car numbers were 7938-7939-7862-7863-8785-8784-7819-7818-8719-8718. I rode it (at the front window, naturally) Tuesday evening from 125th to Brooklyn Bridge. After Canal, the C/R announced that we'd be coming in on the express track at BB but that the train would be going out of service. While we were waiting at Worth for the lineup, the C/R rolled some of the signs to the usual midday 5 terminals. At BB, the train wasn't evacuated before pulling out; I hope it was checked before going to the yard, if that's where it was going. The train arrived at BB at 8:19pm by my watch.
What's going on? Are Redbirds on the 6 an everyday occurrence now?
That set (which is probably not the same set every day) apparently has displaced one of the R-62A sets that has been switching off between the #5 and the #6 (landing on the #5 for Dyre Avenue OPTO overnight service) for about 3 years.
David
How can Redbirds be used in OPTO service? They don't have transverse cabs.
I thought the R-62A trainsets used for OPTO were assigned to the 6 on paper but were actually used by the 5 all day as well.
In any case, do you have a schedule for this train over the course of the day? I'd like to get a picture of a Redbird train on the 6 in the Bronx. (Times at terminals should suffice.) As I said, when I rode it, it reached BB at 8:19pm, when it presumably ran light to Bowling Green to return to 5 service.
A R142 is being use for OPTO nowadays. But you are right about the REDBird its a 5 turn 6 for the PMs. So you only see it after 4pm into about 9pm
I recall a previous thread mentioned this train
made an AM trip on the 6 before going layup
at BB and returning to service as a Parkchester
Local leaving BB about 412p..... and making two
trips to BB before continuing on as a 5 to Flatbush
to become the 838p (?) trip to Dyre Ave....
(this all from my having read a previous thread)
In case anyone else wants to chase after this Redbird 6 train, it seems to enter service at about 4:20pm at Brooklyn Bridge as a local to Parkchester.
I was at Brooklyn Bridge at the time, and, although I wasn't paying much attention, I think I saw an R-33 trainset pull into the SB local track from the south -- in other words, it was coming from one of the layup tracks. It was signed fully as a 6. It then looped to the NB local track and opened its doors.
I don't know if it's a 5 or a 6 in the morning rush, but it seems to sleep between the rushes.
So when I was a little boy a pigeon dropped a load on my new baseball cap. Not having much in my life...a pretty crashing experience. Nearly fifty years later, why am I getting similar vibes? R142 systems work is soooooooo clean!
ONE more time....
the redbird train in question terminates at BB around
8something am and is layed up before returning to service
as a parkchester local on/about 412pm leaving BB....
it makes TWO trips back to BB before continuiing
on to FLATBUSH to become the 838 (or so) to Dyre.
Forgot who the ORIGINAL poster of this information
was... but it sure helped to read and memorize!!
They need the special reinforced bunker toilets for the day after Train Dude sausage and pepper days.
HERE'S A LITTLE TIDBIT FOR ALL YOU URBAN LEGEND TYPES...
From The New York Times, June 7, 1937, pg. 21:
ALLIGATOR IN SUBWAY
Calmly Walks Toward Terrified Crowd?Policemen Capture It
Passengers waiting on the eastbound platform of the Brooklyn Museum station of the I.R.T. subway just before midnight were startled by the sudden appearance of a two-foot alligator which had emerged from a refuse can.
As the alligator moved toward them, the passengers, mostly women, screamed and fled toward the nearest exit. Thomas Carney, station agent, summoned the police.
When Patrolmen James O'Connell and Edward O'Keefe reached the platform the alligator walked toward them with apparent unconcern. O'Keefe immediately pounced on the reptile and managed to keep out of range of the snapping jaws while O'Connell got a rope and lassoed the alligator's mouth. They placed the alligator in a paper carton and took it to the Grand Avenue Station, where the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals called for it.
Passengers on the station told the police that shortly before the alligator appeared a man put a large bundle in the refuse can.
Copyright © 1937 The New York Times
How reputable was the NYT in 1937? Didn't many newspapers have a habit of making up stories? Could have just been a slow news day.
But is was "All the News that's fit to print"
No, that's "All the news that fits we print." LOL!
or "All the News that gave us a fit when they told us to print it"
That's the motto of the Philly Inquirier.
The Times has always been reliable: serious, sober, even dour, the grim gray lady of Times Square. They have always sought to be the 'paper of record', the most respectable of all its mostly now long gone competitors.
I'd take the story at face value.
I dont think NY Times would make stuff up, but I find that paper totally useless. Here at the Hub they are read by the artsy-farty types who think they are cool just because they spend an extra 50 cents a day and read the NY Times. Even more annoying are those people who hold up the arts section and begin flipping through them real quickly on the train. And they always leave the papers in a mess, after having ripped bits out and they are scattered over the subway train. If they were going to leave the papers on the train, they ought to have the courtsey to tidy it up for the person reading it after them.
Personally I read the Metro and think that it's a better paper for headlines than the NY Times. Metro writes in a manner that promotes understanding of the message instead of some shitty interpretation of current affairs. I occasionally read the Globe, and find that it is a good paper, but there are still too many editors that supposedly write "opinions" who actually have no clue what they are talking about. Also the Globe gives Acela too much of a hard time. In any case, both papers are better AND CHEAPER than the NY Times. I would only pick up a NY Times if the only papers available were the NY Times and the WSJ.
Alicia
Oh yeah, and what are the other main choices?
let's see the Daily News, Newsday, or the NY Post. I get the NY Post rarely, but overall, they all exaggerate stuff too much, it's sickening to me...
The New York Post has those outspoken editorials and letters that are always PRO-ISRAEL and ANTI-TERROR. All the newspapers are anti-terror, but the Post isn't afraid to call them barbarians who don't deserve an ounce of our compassion or respect.
You mean there's terrorist alligators on the loose? Yipe! Time to move out. No wonder John's trains ain't going anywhere with gators biting the tires. :)
Amtrak reported on Friday that the Senate Appropriations Committee voted to give Amtrak $55 million for security measures and wreck damage repair as part of a $31-billion emergency supplemental funding bill.
Under the plan, approved on Thursday, Amtrak would spend $20 million to return 56 damaged cars into service within the next 12 to 18 months. This would allow cars, such as those damaged recently in the Auto Train derailment, to return more quickly to service than planned.
Another $23 million would be used for equipment overhauls, which are currently being deferred. In reaction to Amtrak's estimated increased security cost of $17 million this year, the emergency funding bill would also provide $12 million on top of the $5 million in federal funds recently provided to the company for security reimbursements.
This legislation will go to full Senate for consideration after the Memorial Day recess. If passed by the Senate, any differences between the bill and a similar House bill would have to be ironed out before final passage on to the President for signature this summer. However, if signed into law it could mean that Amtrak would receive these emergency and security-related funds before the federal grant it expects in October for capital and operating needs.
Amtrak has told the Senate that it estimates that the work generated from this funding will allow the company to restore as many as 30 jobs at Bear, Del., that were furloughed earlier this year.
In a statement yesterday, Delaware Sen. Joe Biden said, "This funding is a solid first step. It will allow Amtrak to make immediate repairs to unusable cars and upgrade inadequate equipment. I am especially pleased that a good deal of this repair work will be done at the Bear and Wilmington facilities, restoring dozens of jobs in Delaware. But I want to be clear - this funding is not nearly enough. Congress still needs to address Amtrak's security and capital improvement needs and provide the ailing system with a steady and reliable stream of funding. We're making progress, but we are nowhere near the finish line."
Former Amtrak board member and Delaware Sen. Tom Carper said, "If this passes, it could mean millions of dollars in business and dozens of new jobs for Delaware's rail shops. Railcars and locomotives that now sit damaged could be out carrying passengers, but they're not. The workers in Delaware's rail shops have the skill to put these cars back into service. With this appropriation, Amtrak has the resources to put them to work. This appropriation meets a short-term need, but we must not lose sight of the long-term goal. The long-term goal must be to enact a dedicated source of capital funding to ensure the long-term future of national passenger rail service in this country."
I remember than when subway service was restored on 9/11, and on the day after, no subway service whatsoever was allowed below Canal. I believe that service was not restored beneath Canal until Thursday, 9/13.
Does anybody remember how the reroutes worked? I remember that the N and R were shuttles from Court to their Brooklyn terminals and the service was weekend-frequency.
Well, some trains were running south of Canal, but most weren't making stops. (Yet the F stopped at East Broadway, as did any A/C/E that ran via Rutgers, and Prince/Broadway was closed for a while even though it was north of Canal.)
I remember that the A came back pretty quickly, before noon on 9/11.
On 9/12, I rode a Rockaway Park-bound A from 59th to Jay. Most A trains were running via the F, but this one ran express via its usual route, bypassing Canal, Chambers, and Broadway-Nassau.
Here are some relevant posts from the SubTalk archives:
9/11 21:24
9/12 14:35
9/12 20:21
9/16 00:03
The service change that went into effect the morning of 9/17 had the 1 local north of 137th (no 9) and express south of 96th terminating at 14th, the 2 and 3 local in Manhattan but both running to Brooklyn, the A local between 168th and 145th, the C suspended, the D local on weekends (only relevant one weekend), the E extended to Euclid via local, the J local in Brooklyn/Queens (no Z) and extended to 95th, the M extended to Stillwell via Sea Beach, the N suspended, the circle-Q extended to Continental and local in Manhattan, the R suspended, the W local in Manhattan and Queens, and everything else as before. The following stations were bypassed, IIRC: Franklin (2/3), Chambers (2/3), Park Place (2/3), Chambers (A/E), and Wall (4/5).
One or two days later the 1 and 3 swapped south of 96th, arriving at their current arrangement. The 9/19 map, the only full-size map printed before the introduction of the V in December, reflected this service pattern.
The following week (9/24?), the E began relaying at WTC, so C service resumed and the A and D reverted to normal.
IIRC, the bypassed stations reopened in this sequence: Franklin, Wall, Chambers IRT, Chambers IND, Park Place.
I got a question for some of the engineers or engineers-to-be on the board:
I like welded rail. It smoothens the ride, lessens noise (somewhat), and is less subject to and less the cause of wear and tear (you can correct me if I am wrong).
This is now the standard on many miles, if not most or all, of railroad in this country, and in the MTA commuter system (MNRR, LIRR). It's catching on with NYCT, with certain stretches now having welded track installed if they don't have it already. Except for elevated track that rests on steel stringers rather than on a concrete viaduct like the #7 line between Woodside and Sunnyside.
Why is it that there is no welded rail on elevated steel viaducts? (My apologies if this has already been answered, or if the question is moot)
Pretty sure it has to do with expansion and contraction rates.
Elevated structure has very little thermal inertia compared with
concrete, ballast or earthen support. The track requires more
frequent joints for slack take-up than would be provided with CWR.
I would agree.
Elevated rail is exposed to the elements: snow, ice, freezing rain, baking sun.
"Elevated rail is exposed to the elements: snow, ice, freezing rain, baking sun."
So is the mainline on the BNSF out here in North Dakota. If not hotter than NYC certainly much *much* COLDER!
It is all welded rail!
Now if you would give me a song and dance about the expansion and contraction of the structure, I might believe you. But not the rail.
Actually, my bet is that the welded rail *is* coming to an el near you, but who the el knows when.
Elias
It is going from one extreme to the other quickly then how cold it does get.
This winter was very mild, nothing much lower than -15.
-25 is not unusual. We have seen 70 degree shifts in one day when a front comes through, though the difference between 30 and -20 isn't as stressfult on the iron as say from 70 to 20. Sometimes the high temp for the day might be at 1 AM.
I can send you a snowman if you like.
Elias
The problem is that the EL is ancoured to a bare steel structure. You've heard the old "bridge freezes b4 roads surface" thing and you know how many expansion joints are on a typical bridge deck. A skeletal steel viaduct is subject to huge expansion and compression effects compared to a stone balast roadbed, which probably dosen't expand at all.
Wait. If the el expands, the joint between the el sections become smaller. The mileage remains the same. If el contracts, the gap between el sections become larger. The mileage remains the same. The CWR is completely independent from the support systems.
CWR expands and contracts by getting thinner and thicker. They are held in place by Pandrol clips and they can slide a little if required. They can be anchored to steel surface just like anything else, although the steel surface to which it is anchored might exhibit rubbing, because the steel deck contracts and expands horizontally whilst the rail contract and expands sideways and upwards (i.e. widthwise).
The reason they are not installed to the Boston 'el' is because the Boston 'el' is getting ripped out. I don't know about the NYC ones. Also, another thing has always puzzled me. How the hell does the T install welded rail IN A ROADBED, PAVED OVER WITH ASPHALT? You'd think the expansion etc would crack the paving.
Alicia
Denver's light rail line is virtually all-welded rail except at switches. Even the street running portion is welded rail. I've observed that a spacer of some sort is used wherever the rails are embedded in concrete; it appears to be rubber.
===
Elevated rail is exposed to the elements: snow, ice, freezing rain, baking sun.
===
But like the original post stated, the LIRR and MNCR both use it, so exposure isn't the issue.
It's not the rails -- it's the rails plus the structures. The steel structures expand and contract depending on the climate, just as the rails do, but (as I understand it) not at the same rate. On a concrete elevated structure, welded rail works just fine.
David
Another angle is that on elevated lines, track sections are usually assembled off-site and transported to the structure by truck and liften into place. If the "pieces" were too long, they'd have some serious difficulties in replacement. Add that to the thermal angles and I think you've got the picture.
How come newer subways like MARTA and WMATA have welded rail on elevated portions? It gets hotter in Atlanta than the NYC, so the rail will expand more, but we can still get away with it. What is done differently?
I'm not particularly familiar with those systems. Miami has
an el, but it is concrete, not bare structural steel. In NY,
the ties rest directly on the stringer beams.
The fact that it gets hotter in Atlanta doesn't matter. Expansion
is relative. The figure of importance is the spread between the
hottest and the coldest temperatures during the year. The hottest
temps are probably within a few degrees F between Atlanta and NYC
(obviously Atlanta has a much higher average temp), but the lowest
temperatures in NYC are 20 or 30 degrees more severe.
Is MARTA built on a steel structure, or a concrete one? If the supporting structure is concrete, welded rail can be used. Steel structures, such as found in most elevated structures in the NYC subway system, expand and contract with the heat and cold, as does the rail, so sectional tack would be necessary.
"Jeff H." is right.
A few years ago, an experiment was conducted to determine whether welded rail could be installed on NYCT's elevated lines. I don't know the outcome, but to my knowledge there currently is no welded rail on the steel elevated structures.
David
Thanks for the info.
If the rail expand and contract how do the splices (things on the side of the rail with bolts through them) acomodate it?
The "things" you are talking about are joints. You'd have
to take a joint apart to see how it deals with expansion
and contraction. The joint consists of two bars ("joint bars",
"angle bars", or "fishing plates") each with six holes. The
holes are not circles, however. They are oval. There are matching
circular holes in the ends of the rails. When the assembly is bolted
up, as thermal expansion moves the rail ends, the bolts slide in
the oval joint bar holes.
gottcha! Thank You
Totally Incorrect- if youve been using pairs of joints that both have oval holes- your making a mistake!!
The joint pairs are supposed to be one bar with oval holes, and the other bar with round holes.
The oval holes correspond to the oval neck on the track bolt. The only reason the oval necked bolt is used, is the oval bolt in the oval joint bar cant rotate while the square nut is being tightened with a wrench.
Conversely, the bolt cant back itself out from vibration either.
As for the nut itself, its usually used with a lock washer- but doesnt have to be. The nut is flat on one end, and convex on the other end. The flat side goes "down" (towards the head of the bolt) when you use a lock washer, and the convex side goes "down" when you dont use a lock washer.
The expansion of the rail is taken into account be leaving a small gap between the rails-- this is accomplished by the placement of the bolt holes in the rail, it has nothing at all to do with the joints.
In fact, if your rails are "sliding" inside your joints, youve got a big problem.
Bob D.
Thank You for clearing that up about the joint bars. The oval holes is to stop the bolt from turning while you are tightening it. When the panals come out of Linden Shop they are usually around 39 ft. long. CWR comes in a "stringer" it is 390 ft. long. They are 10, 39 ft. rails welded together. You can put CWR out side but only in an open cut. The insulated joints would let the rails expand and contract, hopefully not to much or then you have a problem. Putting CWR on the structure just won't work from a maintenance view because the different lengths. By the way the TA has rail thermometers for problems like this.
Bob, yeah, the track bolts have oval heads so you only need
one wrench. Whether they are round or oval on the other side
depends on who made the joint bars and what section of rail
it is. Normal practice is to stagger the bolts head/nut/head/nut
etc.
However, the rails must slide relative to the joint bars! If
they don't, that's a "frozen joint". The slack for expansion and
contraction has to be taken up evenly among all of the joints.
When it is cold, there is a larger gap between the rail ends
at each joint, and when it is hot, the rail ends come together
until they almost touch. If the joint doesn't slide, then it's
just like a CWR joint, and the expansion/contraction has to be
taken up at the adjacent joints. A few frozen joints in close
proximity and the rail has no where to go, hence heat kinks.
The freedom of the joint can be obtained in several ways. The
joint bar holes can be elongated, the holes in the rail can be
made oversize, or both. For a 100 degreee Far. temperature
swing and 39' sections, the change in length per 39' is about
1/4".
Jeff- please dont say "slide"- what your talking about is more of a slight "creep"!!!
The usual way to get the internal joint expansion tolerance is by making the bolt holes slightly larger than the bolt diameter.
For a 1" diameter oval neck track bolt, you drill the rail holes 1-1/8". The rail drilling pattern also has to allow for expansion.
For example, if your rail drilling pattern is "3 x 6", you make sure the center of your first hole is 3-1/8" from the rail end-- thats using your tolerance of 1/4", which is somewhat on the high end for expansion tolerance, but commonly found on "stick" rail of 50 or 60 years ago. It also helps to make that pleasant "clickity clack", which I personally like. To make the rails "sing" correctly, you have to stagger your joints at a correct interval for your operating speed, so you get "click-- click-------------------click--click".
As for the joints, they used lots of different kinds. One common joint is cast and forged with alternating oval holes and round holes. The idea was that if a derailment occured, only half of the bolts would be sheared off by an errant wheel.
Point of interest- the reason track bolts have "button heads" is so the the heads cant be sheared off during a derailment.
Other types joints were commonly made in "pairs" with one bar having all the oval holes, and the other bar having all the round holes. These joints were used inside turnout stock rails, but were also commonly found on "over the road" tracks too. It was thought that having all the nuts on only side would speed installation, and would also make it easier to build a machine for driving down the nuts.
bob d.
Which NYC Subway lines currently have welded rail?
- Lyle Goldman
U know i thought that by now all of the nyc subway system would B welded rail......
was almost shocked 2 see in 1999-2000...it is not !!!
I don't know for certain about the Els in NYC, but on the elevated sections of the 2 and 6 Lines in Paris, welded rail is not used to avoid putting undue stress on the stanchions (however it's spelt!). The other exception, which I presume also happens in NYC, is that short sections of track are used on curves as these need replacing more often.
They dont use CWR on the "els" because prefabricated track panels are used. They make them in Linden Shop.
Sometimes you can see the panels being craned up into position. Panels are delivered to the job site by flatbed truck.
Also, it makes panel replacement easier.
When using CWR, there are "look it up tables" that explain how much expansion is need per linear distance and temperature change range.
The rule of thumb is in the order of 1/2" per quarter mile. You wont see too many CWR strings of greater than 1/4 mile.
The provision for expansion is simply using a conventional joint- with bolt holes correctly spaced on the rails.
bob d.
Snap Track! Cool!
I just heard Governor McGreevy say that the 4,000 passengers who stand everyday on a NJT train will have a seat this fall. He said this terrible condition has to stop. If anyone knows how he plan's to do this would you share it with us. Just think train #3869 otherwise known as the 6:14 pm to Trenton otherwise known as "The Titanic" might be a sixteen car train. (What an announcement - If your in the last car please walk up six cars to exit at Metropark.
Yeah, but what about the ALP-46? Does that look cool, or like a Toyota Previa?
-Hank
There's a picture of it in Railpace this month. The front end reminds me of an LRV type vehicle. And while the blue orange and purple paint scheme isn't the best in the world (it's so 70s), the stripes on the ALP 44's is much better than the blended rainbow stripe on the 46.
IMHO of course!
I thought the 5:19 was the Titanic. At least that's what I heard a conductor say.
Actually, the old 6:11pm to Trenton was known as "The Titanic". That train, #3869, expressed Newark to Rahway, then made all stops to Trenton. In April, they changed it so that #3869 leaves at 6:14, 3 minutes after #3867, which expresses Newark to New Brunswick. Luckily, I haven't been on any of those trains since 1999!
And a chicken in every pot.
No no no ... FIRST you take de chicken. THEN you put de ganga in de chicken. THEN you smoke the chicken. I guess folks never understood the "get the seat game" on the subway. Just be the craziest mumfum in the car, and you'd GET the seat ... but yeah, one would hope that there'd be sufficient service for the number of folks riding and it seems that NJT has had a rampup in ridership without a corresponding rampup in seats. With or without the chicken. :)
The governor must be smoking pot if he thinks something like that will work.
I thought the 6:14, which used to be the 6:11, was the Andrea Doria.
So I guess the 6:11 which is a Trenton Express hasn't opened up anymore seats. I'm usually on the 6:33, and I get a seat, although sometimes it's a middle seat.
With the refurbished Comet II's coming back online, and the Comet V's soon to enter service, there is supposed to be enough cars to add two trains to the North Jersey Coast and Northeast Corridor lines. I have a feeling that it'll be service to/from Newark because I don't think there are any available slots into and out of Penn Station.
Also, Amtrak is adding cars to Clocker's and monthly/weekly pass holders will be able to use some Amtrak trains.
I'm hoping that a least one of the Northeast Corridor trains leaves from Jersey Avenue in the morning.
In regards to those nicknames. The 6:14 which was the 6:11 (#3869) to Trenton was named by it's crew as "the Titanic". So now it's the 6:14. Before the 6:33 was split into a 6:33 and a 6:37 the one that stops at MetroPark is the "Andrea Doria". Your probably right that the new trains will start at Newark. They use to have three originating there and it dwindled to the one they have today. They tried adding one last year but without PATH running from downtown since 9/11 it didn't draw anyone so they found a way to start it in New York and that's why they split the 6:33 to Trenton into two trains the 6:33 & 6:37. I don't think the plan had any increases for the Coast Line, just NEC and Midtown Direct.
Here is the answer to your question.
June 16, 2000 Schedue change:
AM Peak
1. The standee count will be reduced from approxiamately 4,000 to 2,000 by June 30 as a result of the following changes: Morning Peak: Four more cars will be added to Amtrak Clocker train 628 (serving Trenton, Princeton Jct, Newark, NY) generatiing 300 additional seats.
2. Amtrak will honor weekly and monthly tickets on trains 170, 100 and 180 for an additional 200 seats.
PM Peak
1. Improved operation of train turning times between NY and Newark will allow them to use one less train in the evening. As a result, the cars from this train will be redistributed to other PM peak trains.
2. A train scheduled to return to the yard for the night will be kept in service with those cars added onto a later PM peak train.
THE RESULT
Ten PM Peak trains- a combination of NEC and NJC Line trains (Nos. 3251, 3255, 3857, 3859, 3263, 3507, 3869, 3875, 3877, 3281)- will get an additional 16 cars for a total capacity of approxiamately 1,840 seats.
An additional late night train (No. 3793) will be added to accomodate customers attending events at MSG.
Two cars will be added to a later evening train (No. 3887), generating 230 seats to accomodate customers attending events at MSG.
Four more cars will be added to Amtrak Clocker service in the evening, generating 300 additional seats.
August 18, 2000 Schedule Changes
Saturdays- A total of four inbound trains and four outbound trains will be added onto the NEC which will generate 7,300 additional seats.
September 8, 2002
This will seat all 4,000 standees.
Immediately afer Labor Day and in concert with the end of our special summer service, two morning peak will be added, creating approxiamately 2,000 seats.
Two additional evening trains will be added, creating 2,000 seats.
September 29,2002 Schedule
1. September 30, the new Montclair connection service will begin, utilizing the new comet V rail cars and ALP-46. This will add a total of 9,500 seats on morning and evening peak period trains serving the Montclair Connection.
2. The Montclair Connection will provide some capacity relef to NJ Transit's Midtown Direct customers who transfer at Broad Street for NY service.
Bi-Level Cars
May 30, board members and are expected to allocate $250 million towards the purchase of 231 bi-level rail cars.
Timeline for Bi-Level cars
1. This summer, negotiations will occur with bi-level vendors
2. Early fall 2002, the contract will be awarded.
3. Early 2005, bi-level prototype will arrive at Pueblo, Co for testing.
Mid 2005, bi-level prototype will be at NJT property for further testing.
4. Early fall 2005, bi-level cars will be place into revenue service.
The obvious next question is, if they can get rid of all the standees this way, why can't they open the Secaucus connection when it's ready? Last I heard they won't open it till the PATH goes to the WTC again, even though it will be completed at the end of this year.
I realize it means standees again, but only for 10 minutes.
Why don't they just but LIRR C-3 Bi-levels off the shelf? The NEC is 100% hi-level platform. I'm not a C-3 fan, but 2.5 years to get a car in service is way too long.
Why don't they just but LIRR C-3 Bi-levels off the shelf?
Clearance issues under the catenary.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They run them into NY Penn. The ER Tubes have some of the tighest cat clearances on the NEC.
But the Hudson river tubes are even tighter...
They are increasing the height of the Bergen Tunnels, so I presume C-3 (or rather the stuff they run on MBTA and MARC) type equipment could run there. But why? One to three car trains on hoboken div. and use the leftover equipment to make 20 car trains on the NEC?
As long as you aren't reducing capacity on any line by a drastic amount, who cares? I doubt the people coming in to Hoboken will really care if they have a long, single deck train or a short, double deck train, as long as they can all get to where they are going in comfort (i.e., they still have a seat). The NEC can't run standard double decker cars as far as I know, so they need more single level cars.
Bilevel trains take slightly longer to empty out at a terminal since 1.7 cars worth of people are now using the same doorspace as 1 car.
Low level platform stations take longer to empty out than high level since people have to navigate the steps. If there are enough old people it can take up to 5 minutes for a full single level car to empty out at Hoboken. And if you're unlucky and wind up on a track with the platform on the right, there's only one door for people in the cab car to get out. And god forbid one door leaf isn't working!
Now, combine the two. You'll need two arrival times at Hoboken: The time the train gets there, and the time the last person gets off!
Does anyone know about the ridership density at each of the stations? All stations prove to serve at least hundreds of passengers per hour (at least), but which station proves to be the most dense?
Also, after the AM Rush, there is a train scheduled NY bound 6 minutes after the 9:25a train at Metuchen. Does the "extra" train come from Jersey Av.?
The last train from Jersey Ave is at 9:12. That train is off peak and expresses after Metropark. The following train is a local from Trenton.
I dont have specific figures, but NJT says that Metro Park has the highesty ridership for a non-terminal station other than ELizabeth.
My source comes from NJT's website which features their capital improvement plans . (You have to hunt for the inmfo!) As part of that plan there are plans for a total rebuild of Metro park Station with longer platforms, two levelw aiting room NY bound and indoor waiting Trenton Bound along with overpasses from trenton Bound to the garages and NY platform. Various crew members have also told me that NJT would like an island platform for Trenton Bound.
The status: awaiting funding.( Amtrak will share the costs.)
Is there enough room on the floor?
The statiopn building would be enlarged and made two stories high. The enire station would be moved Westward (towards Trenton) to allow longer plaTtforms and to presumably allow a straight platform rather then curve which ctreates a huge gap in height and width Trernton Bound. They would add indoor waiting on the Trenton Bound Platform. I'm sure they have the land- Trenton Bound has a strip of land next to NJ Route 27.
Why not an island platform towards NY too? No more switching for the Acela Express trains!
I asked the same thing and the crew members said they doubt it. They told me that probably the island for Trenton trains many not survive either.
Riding NJT at least 5 days a week, I get to know many crtew member s and can ask alot of rail fan questions.
(You have to hunt for the inmfo!) As part of that plan there are plans for a total rebuild of Metro park Station with longer platforms, two levelw aiting room NY bound and indoor waiting Trenton Bound along with overpasses from trenton Bound to the garages and NY platform. Various crew members have also told me that NJT would like an island platform for Trenton Bound.
When do you think this will be plausible by? As of now, I see no (or little) space on the n/b platform for extension, the wooden platform is there, (cutting down of trees?) and the GSP is not too far from it.
How are they to build an island platform with the four tracks that they have now? I think the rebuild plans are great, but can you update me on the factors and approximately how long it might take?
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
BTW, did NJT fund the 6 or 7 (estimate) story long-term garage, and what is come now of the old Metropark parking lot? (I have not seen it in use in a long time)
The 5 story garage was built first and was built on the site of the surface parking lot. The 7 story was also built on the site of the eastern surface parking lot. The remaining section of surface lot is used as overflow parking.
The plans call for the station to be moved westward- I dont know how far. I dont know when construction would start.
from the NJT web site, her e is the info via cust and paste:
More Rail Seats Now
On Wednesday, May 29, 2002, Governor James E. McGreevey, Department of Transportation Commissioner Jamie Fox and NJ TRANSIT Executive Director George Warrington announced a series of improvements that will begin to ease congestion on NJ TRANSIT trains traveling into Penn Station New York.
Service improvements, including placing additional cars on existing trains, enhancing our agreement with Amtrak so Northeast Corridor riders can travel on three additional Amtrak trains, Amtrak adding cars to a train our riders already use, and the addition of several more trains to our Northeast Corridor and North Jersey Coast Line are some of the immediate improvements riders will see.
Our Boonton Line and Montclair Branch riders will be pleased to know that on September 30, 2002, the much-awaited Montclair/Boonton/MidTOWN DIRECT service will begin. This will improve service for commuters in that region, who will now be able to travel directly to Midtown Manhattan on select trains. Commuting choices will also be expanded. Boonton Line customers will have access to downtown Newark, home of the New Jersey Performing Arts Center, Newark Bears Stadium, and much more. Of course, they can continue to travel to Hoboken for connections to PATH and ferry services.
Raritan Valley Line customers will also benefit from added seating capacity because more seats will be available in their connecting service between Newark and New York. Raritan Valley Line customers are enjoying a more comfortable commute now from the arrival of newly rehabilitated Comet II coaches.
Morris & Essex Lines riders have already benefited from our post-9/11 schedule adjustments, which resulted in an addition of 4,715 seats to six trains bound for Penn Station New York.
Improvements are also on the way for our Main Line/Bergen County Line and Pascack Valley Line customers who will be getting new cars in 2003. These new cars will replace NJ TRANSIT's oldest fleet of rail cars, the Comet Is.
See our Timeline of Service Improvements below for specific upcoming changes. Customer notices will provide detailed information, and will be available by Wednesday, June 5. Look for one on your train. Or, be sure to pick one up at our Customer Service offices in Newark Penn Station, Penn Station New York, or Hoboken Terminal.
Timeline of Service Improvements
June 16, 2002 Schedule Change for Northeast Corridor/North Jersey Coast Lines
* Four more cars will be added to Amtrak Clocker train 628 (serving Trenton, Princeton Junction, Newark and New York), and NJ TRANSIT monthly/weekly tickets will be allowed on three additional Amtrak trains - train nos. 170, 100, 180.
* 10 evening peak period trains - a combination of Northeast Corridor and North Jersey Coast Line trains - will get a total of approximately 16 additional cars.
* To accommodate customers attending events at Madison Square Garden, two cars will be added to a later evening train and an additional late night train will be added. Four cars will be added to Amtrak Clocker service in the evening.
August 18, 2002 Schedule Change for Northeast Corridor Line
(The specifics of the changes below are currently under review)
* A total of four inbound (to New York) trains and four outbound (from New York) trains will be added onto the Northeast Corridor service on Saturdays.
September 8, 2002 Schedule Change for Northeast Corridor/North Jersey Coast Lines
(The specifics of the changes below are currently being finalized)
* Immediately after Labor Day and in concert with the end of our special summer service trains, two morning peak period trains will be added, creating approximately 2,000 additional seats.
* Two additional evening trains will add 2,000 seats.
September 29, 2002 Schedule Change for Montclair Branch/Boonton Line
* September 30, the new Montclair Connection service will begin, adding a total of 9,500 seats on morning and evening peak period trains serving the Montclair Connection. This service will also provide some capacity relief to current Morris & Essex Lines customers who transfer at Broad Street Station in Newark for New York service.
Bi-Levels are on the Way
* The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey's Board has allocated $250 million towards the purchase of 231 new bi-level rail cars. These will be specially designed to accommodate our system and fit through the Hudson River tunnels. Each car has approximately 30% more seats than the existing single-level cars. North Jersey Coast Line, Northeast Corridor, and MidTOWN DIRECT service customers can look forward to approximately 20,000 more seats. When combined with the new Comet V coaches, which are currently being delivered, we will have approximately an additional 33,000 seats.
NJ TRANSIT's recently established Capacity Task Force, created by Executive Director George Warrington, is up to the challenge of getting back to the basics. The task force is focusing on equipment utilization, creative use of our equipment and efficient scheduling of our service, and, of course, safety. It's important to note that our continued relationship with Amtrak has paid off, as they will be helping us to get passengers into New York as outlined above. We will also continue to analyze our operation, the way we schedule trains, equipment manipulation and our physical plant, with the goal of further reducing standees.
Thank you for your continued support and patience. Please be assured that NJ TRANSIT is committed to the smart management of our assets and rapid response to our customers' demands.
I wonder why Amtrak is letting NJT passengers on train 100, which is the 5:25 AM Metroliner from Washington. I believe that train will soon become an Acela Express, too, probably number 2100. It also doesn't stop at any NJT stops. It leaves Philadelphia at 7:15 AM and arrives in Newark at 8:13 to discharge passengers only. Arrival in New York Penn is at 8:30.
I just took my 6 rolls of film from this weekend's trip to the store to be processed. It is quite a large amount of money I pay to get my pictures done and I have decided it is time to upgrade to a digital camera. I saw some of what people were using on Sunday. Maybe some of you saw what I use. My primary camera is an Olympus [mju:]-II Zoom, and I believe a digital version is available. If anyone has it and can review it here, please do. If you have other suggestions for what I should consider getting, please post that information here or e-mail me at oren@orenstransitpage.com. Include the manufacturer, model name, pros, cons, features, and approximate cost. I greatly appreciate anyone who takes the time to do this!
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
www.orenstransitpage.com
I can't help you with a digital camera, but if you're paying more than 20 cents per 400 ASA picture or 23 cents per 800 ASA picture, you're paying too much.
Get your film at B&H or Adorama and pay only $2 for a roll of 400 ASA (Konica) or $3 for 800 ASA (Fuji), both 36 exposures. (Stock up the next time you're in NYC to avoid shipping charges.) Then send them into Snapfish for developing and printing: $5 per roll including shipping.
(Not that I'm trying to stop you from going digital if that's what you'd prefer.)
Does Snapfish have a website? How is photoworks in Seattle?
Does Snapfish have a website?
http://www.snapfish.com/
If you or anyone here is thinking of opening an account, please contact me by email first. If I refer you, I get five free prints (and you lose nothing).
How is photoworks in Seattle?
Expensive, very expensive. I used PhotoWorks once, taking advantage of a free-first-roll offer. IIRC, the prices for what I need are over twice Snapfish's.
I would highly recommend visting this excellent website http://www.dcresource.com/. They independently evaluate every digital camera on the market with very throuogh reviews and sample pictures. I decided on my camera thru this site.
I have a Fuji FinePix 2600Z, it's $300 and is great value for what you get, 3x optictal zoom, 2.5x digital zoom, 2.1 megapixels. It's hard to master shooting in low light without flash, it takes some experimentation and photo editing for good results. I still haven't completely figured it out after 6 months having my camera.
GO DIGITAL!!!!!!!!! I have a Sony DSC-S30 1.6 MegaPixel Camera and I love it. The photos come out so sharp (I print them out on a HP Photosmart 1315 Printer). There is so much more you can do with digital, it was a good investment for me. From shots underground to shots a few thousand feet over NYC. No complaints here.
Digital still can't replace a good film camera for things like timed exposure night shots, pictures taken in very quick sucession and any number of other professional camera tricks. Also, film quality is still much better than digital cameras w/ much less grain and greater ability to be blown up. Digital camera do take better pictures in lo-light, but they are much more suceptable to softness or blur. You best bet is a nice digital camera for farting around and a good film camera for your quality shots.
Yes, maybe, and no.
They are making a better chip, and that is why I am waiting to buy a newer camera.
But the professional photographer (He sure charged enough) who was here to take pictures for a new brochure used a digital camera.
5.5 Mega Pixels.
I asked how much it cost, and he said about as much as a used car.
(No Not YOUR used car!)
Hehehehe...
Elias
I decided to go digital after consultation with Harry Beck after a Brooklyn waterfront tour organized by Doug BRTman a year-and-a-half ago. I subsequently went to a store in Philly where I had previously purchased electronics and discovered that they no longer carried digital cameras, but they said they'd order one for me and have it mailed. I ordered a Fuji FinePix 3.3 megapixel (price not stated, but they assured me they wouldn't rip me off). Four days later a Fuji FinePix 4700 4.something megapixel arrived. I don't remember the price, but it was fair. I've been very pleased with the camera.
My cheap 35 mm camera finally died recently, so I won't be taking slides any more. I used both cameras for a while, but I won't mourn the loss of the 35 mm.
BTW, I scanned the slides from my last roll of film and posted them on my Webshots site.
my last roll of slides
Guess I'm still "old school"... Kodachrome rules in my house. Of course, with nearly 20 35mm cameras to choose from... but I mostly use one of my three Canon FTb models from 1971 (a second is my backup camera and Jr. uses the third). My quintet of Exaktas is semi-retired since all need some minor work and no one wants to work on them any more, and the rest of the collection includes two more Canons, a Minolta, and a bunch of early Kodak, Argus, and Leica units. (Dig the old Argus C-3 - the "brick" still works like a charm!) But I've got nothing against digital... I'm just not willing to give up slides quite yet.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Two 35mm Canon FD (A1, EF) cameras, three different lenses and Kodachrome. I wouldn't mind picking up a longer telephoto lens at some point, preferably reasonably soon, but even with the minimal equipment it's still possible to get excellent images from a technical and composition standpoint. Digital definitely hasn't reached the point where it can affordably replace a slide show without a loss in quality.
-Robert King
Also digital camera do not have the range of lenses that are available to optical 35mm cameras. Another problem is that digital camera have a seperate viewfinder rather than sighting your eye-view through the primary lens like film cameras do. This leads to problems w/ WYSINWYG.
Also digital camera do not have the range of lenses that are available to optical 35mm cameras
... unless you buy a very expensive professional use camera.
Another problem is that digital camera have a seperate viewfinder rather than sighting your eye-view through the primary lens like film cameras do.
I read a review recently (VideoMaker magazine?) that stated that digital cameras have more of a delay when you take a picture than film cameras. I'm no expert on cameras by any strtech of the imagination, but have users of digital cameras on this board find that to be true?
--Mark
My Nikon Coolpix 800 has no delay. I think digital cameras are the best thing since sliced bread or New York pizza. No film, instant editing, instant pictures to email etc. Storage is no problem, just burn them into a disk. Printing is easy and I get really good results on my HP720 with an A4 print costing about 50p ($0.75)
I think that for not so serious photographers like me they are excellent. But if you want to win Dave's photo competition then a good SLR and a tripod is a must. Oh! and a professional film scanner.
Simon
Swindon UK
It's way cheaper than doing the film and develop thing.
I actually got my digital camera last year as a Christmas gift, and have found it much easier to use than my last film camera. I haven't used that thing since 1995, part of the reason 110-cartridge film which is what it used wasn't made anymore.
Digital cameras do very well in the rail environment and have a better tolerance for motion and poor light conditions.
Sorry, but if your camera used 110 film, you weren't really a photographer.
Jim D.
I started with 110 on my first camera. It isn't bad for beginners, but don't use if if you are serious about taking pictures.
I think digital will take over in a year or so. I think I may well upgrade to a digital SLR, there are some very nice semi -pro models coming through.
Simon
Swindon UK
Yes...sort of. Because almost all digital cameras are the non-professional point and shoot small lens type there is an auto-focus delay. I have this problem w/ my camera and it was annoying before I realized what was going on. W/ my film camera I would take an immediate picture by just pressing hard on the shutter button. My digital camera will wait until it auto-focuses so I can easily get screwed on "hurry up" photos, something common in railfanning. However, if I am able pre-auto-focus the camers (keeping the button half depressed) then when I want to take a pic the reaction is instantanious. There is also a full time auto-focus option that I have not tried yet. Anyway, there is a min 2 second delay between photos and that is much longer than a film camera.
My fully automatic point-and-shoot Canon SureShot Z135 film camera doesn't take two seconds to focus. Why are digitals so much slower?
The 2-7 second delay b/t shots is the camera processing and saving the image to memory.
But shouldn't that all happen after the picture is taken? From what I've read, digital cameras tend to delay a few seconds before taking a picture.
The delay before taking the picture is the lens "auto-focusing". If you use manual focus, there wont be any delay.
The delay after taking the picture is the camera writing the image to the memory card. The smaller or lower the quality of the picture, then the shorter the writing delay, the larger or the higher quality the pic, then the longer the delay.
My film camera also has autofocus but the delay before taking a picture is short, shorter than it is on a digital from what I can tell. Why?
It has something to do with the digital camera's microprocessor preparing to capture a good image from the CCD. That's all I know since I haven't been looking into digital cameras because I'm not planning to buy one any time soon.
-Robert King
The microprocessors in the cameras -- because of their lower cost -- take more time to "image" the data on the light-sensative cells in t the camera, the same way that older, slower computers take longer to process their data than newer ones.
The professional SLR digitals cram enough processing power into their chips to mimic a regular SLR camera for shutter reaction, even when you're shooting a 30 mb .jpg photo (and God help anyone using anything slower than a 1 gig Pentium IV computer with Photoshop to open and adjust a 30 mb photo -- you can go out and have lunch waiting for the changes in size, color, etc. to be made). That's also why the professional camera still cost 5-10 times as much as the more common digitals.
... and G-d help anyone using anything slower than a 1 gig Pentium IV computer with Photoshop to open and adjust a 30 mb photo ...
He did... He gave us the Mac :-)
I regularly scan 35mm Kodachrome slides at 550% enlargement, 720 dpi, which gives me about a 65 mb scan file... then I work it on my 3 year old Mac (G3 processor, 350 mHz), resize and reduce, for the final result. I really need a better scanner though.
Here are two examples that I've done recently of Denver RTD - they were taken on Sunday, 09 September 2001 - and offered to Dave for use on this site (not sure if he has picked them up or not):
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He did... He gave us the Mac :-)
We're supposed to have one in the office by this fall, as much to handle PageMaker and Illustrator as to deal with Photoshop. G-d also didn't make Adobe programs to run natrually on Windows/DOS-based systems...
It better be a G4 you're running Photoshop on...
It better be a G4 you're running Photoshop on...
Actually, I'm doing just fine on a 350 mHz G3, 640 mb ram. I don't do anything super fancy though and I do have plenty of hard drive space.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What combination got you up to 640 MB of RAM?
Forget I asked, I figured it out.
256+
256+
128=
640◊
Or in my case...
256+
256+
64+
64=
640?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yours truly was standing next to Mouse when he took those great pics. Car 108 is one of the Original Eleven LRVs in Denver. It has opening transoms above the side windows, something which later units don't have. Originally it had drop-sash cab windows, but these were replaced with swing-in windows at some point.
Trains now sport a two-sided flip sign at the front end. Depending on which route the train is running on, it will either display an orange sign with a white C or a green sign with a white D. The destination sign is still used in conjunction with the flip signs, although IMHO this is decidedly low-tech. Apparently RTD didn't want to spend the bucks on new roll signs; they just spliced "Union Station" on the end of each curtain.
Both photos were taken at the southern terminus, Mineral Ave.
on my old computer p166 it took three hour to open just a 10mb photo.
I'm sticking with my Nikon F4 for the time being, along with my FA which serves as a backup. The next time I'm at B&H, I'm going to spring for a teleconverter.
I have a 2x teleconverter for Nikon AF lenses which I'll give to you because they're crap. Save your cash for a real zoom lens.
My guess is that the auto-focused image needs to be shown to you through the LCD so it takes more time to process, then actually be shown to you, but don't quote me on it.
The delay is most certainly there. I found it very difficult at first to "time" the button pressing to getting a good centered shot of moving equipment such as buses or trains.
The delay is most certainly there.
Jim Boyd wrote a series of columns in Railfan and Railroad complaining about the delay of up to 10 seconds between pushing the "shutter release" and the snapping of the photograph. This was after mentioning that he had purchased an early model used digital camera.
I found it very difficult at first to "time" the button pressing to getting a good centered shot of moving equipment such as buses or trains.
I shared the same experience, but the train nearly always winds up in the picture, and cropping can usually make it look like the location of the train in the photo was planned. Two examples are 125 mph trains photographed running through Princeton Junction:
AEM7 #910 on track 1
and
AEM7 #919 on track 2,
both photographed on October 3 while waiting for
NJT train #3838 to NYP.
BTW, The backs belong to my brother and his wife, and my wife's red head is over my brother's left shoulder.
That is not Princeton Jct, that is Hamilton.
Thanks. I started to put up a different set of photos, then forgot to change the statement.
My camera, the C-3020, has absolutely no delay IF the auto-focus has been set (ie partial pressure on the shutter). I have been able to take some great action shots using this method. If I get stuck and have no time to auto-focus, my digital has been very good about tracking shots where I just keep the pointed at whatever moving target I am aiming at until it finally takes the picture. The results have some grain and some blur problems, but its nothing that can't be fixed.
> Another problem is that digital camera have a seperate viewfinder
I don't find that to be true with most digial cameras. Most have an LCD screen showing you exactly what the lens sees. I would actually say very few digitals have an additional viewfinder. I think it's hard to get used to using the LCD for the viewfinder since it changes the way you hold the camera to take your photographs-- and of course the LCD screen drains battery power.
As you said intense use of the LCD screen drastically reduces battery life and makes it a lot harder to sight the camera (cause you have to hover it about 4 inches in front of your face instead of pressed against you eye). For the above reasons I try to use the optical scope as much as possibly.
I still wish they would make an optical style digital camera where the only differance are a CCD instead of film and an LCD on the back and a cost comparable to the high quality film camera.
They Do, if you have $5000 to $10,000 to spend on it. : )
Are you sure? Most digital cameras that I know of have a viewfinder. Sony Mavicas are the only ones I can think of without one. I like using the viewfinder because it allows me to have a little more stabilty holding the camera.
NiMH batteries are what I use, they hold a charge pretty well, and you don't have to spend loads of $$ for batteries.
Yeah, and Olympus cameras take batteries of AA size so you can use rechagable NiMH AA's or normal AA's incase you get stuck.
There are digital camers built on Nicon and Canon bodies, that use their lenses. They are in the 5 to 10 thousand dollar price reange, which probably explains why you haven't seen one lately.
Elias
What is there to justify that price? A normal good film camera is like 400-500. Let's be generous and say a digital camera CCD et al is 500$. You put the two together and you have $1000. What gives?
"Let's be generous and say a digital camera CCD et al is 500$. You put the two together and you have $1000. What gives?"
Yes, that would be the logic.
So let me splain what I think.
These high end cameras are made (I think) by Kodak, using standard Canon and Nikon bodies (the High end bodies, please!) and then fitting a computerized package to them. The computerized package probably has to be made custom for each camera body, with a low run dening them economies of scale.
I presuem that the rebuilds are made in America (though I do not know this) and so there is little *cheap-foreign-labor* involved. And even if they were custom made in Japan or Korea, custom labor there is getting to be more and more pricy too.
So the Short answer to explain the high price is LABOR!
Elias
Well,
I have a very nice 3.2 megapixel Olympus Camedia C3020 Zoom camera which has a host of features...for about $400-500, depending on where you get it from...go to B&H on 34th/9th...they will show u a whole range of cameras and there you can pick the one you like best...I prefer Olympus cameras over anything, but you just have to go camera-shopping... Good luck!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
May I assume that what you pay for processing also includes Kodak mounting your photos on a CD or directly to your website?
Actually, it doesn't. I get the prints back, scan them ASAP, and upload them myself. I actually have a hard copy of every picture on my site.
I have an Olympus C-3020 and I just love it. I got it for 360$ from Staples.com, 3.2 megapixil and 3x optical zoom. It is Olympus quality, it takes AA size batteries, lasts about 2-3 good "trips" before needing a recharge and is plug and play UBS and can output pics in JPEG format. The LCD screen is great and I can zoom into and explore the pics while still on the camera on said screen.
BTW, I have you tried sending your film into Clark Labs for devoloping? Its only about 2$ per 24exp roll and it takes about a week.
BTW, I have you tried sending your film into Clark Labs for devoloping? Its only about 2$ per 24exp roll and it takes about a week.
It's $2.75 for 3x5's, and I'm not sure if that includes shipping.
Snapfish is a better deal: $4.98 for 3x5 or 4x6, 24-exposure or 36-exposure, including shipping. It also includes low-quality scans on the web -- not worth much, but it's something.
Processing in either case is done by District Photo (which actually owns Snapfish now), so print quality is probably identical.
The thing w/ Clark is that if you are on their mailing list, they frequently send you discounted photo packets. Each photo packet has a billing slip on it and there are no expiration dates. My mom saves up all the discount ones they send us and we can end up paying as little as $1.50 per roll.
Then they're being pretty stupid for not telling us about those discounts on their website, are they not?
About how many of those discounts do you get per year, typically? Do you know what the discounted charge is for 36 4x6 prints?
I'd have to go look it up. We just got a $1.99 Special in the mail some time last week. I can see them only sending the mailings out to their "established/loyal" customer base.
If you want a digital camera that produces close to the same reporduction and has the same reaction time as a regular 35mm SLR, you're still looking at big $$$ compaired to what a similar SLR that uses film will cost, though odds are the prices will come down significantly within the next few years.
Right now, I'm getting to play around with the Fuji FinePix S1 Pro, their knock-off of the Nikon D-1, which is the standard camera most major newspapers use. The Fuji comes in at a mere $2,700, which is still about $2,000 below the Nikon, but that doesn't include the lens (we're using a Tokina 28-70 zoom and a Nikon 80-200 zoom, which brings the cost up past the $4,000 mark). The camera can be set to shoot images up to 30 mb apeice (which translates into eight shots on a 256 mb card), but the camera's 'fine' setting, which takes pictures at about 2.5 mb per image, works fine -- though obviously, after a few hudred shots storage on a hard drive might get to be a problem.
Also, although the Fuji, like most current SLRs, comes with its own pop-up flash, due to the circutry inside, they advise you against using any external flash not specifically made for a digital SLR. That means about another $300 for the Nikon SB-28 or similar flash (the flash isn't all that powerful, either, but under stadium lighting conditions the digital can freeze night images at about a distance of 90 feet at 1/125th without flash equipment. Obviously, things are a little darker in the subway, but platform lighting at 1/30th without a flash might be enough to produce a decent image).
I was thinking of getting a small movie light for use with my digital. I will turn the light on compose and take my photograph and then turn the light off again.
Might be a little on the pricy side, but you can also ghe Halogen Lights at K-Mart for under $15.00 for studio sorts of aplications.
Elias
That would certainly be a cheaper option than currently available, so long as the people the light is pointed at don't find it too invasive.
Eventually, the prices should come down on the flashes, the same way they've already come down on the digital cameras (the first generation SLR digitals eight years ago came in at a whopping $16,000). Right now, I'd hate to have to price the digital equivalent of one of those Metz megaburst flashes or something even more powerful.
Chicago's old Douglas L is slowly fading into history. By being rebuilt from the ground up, the L we knew, its old stations and ornate structures, is disappearing forever. Too bad the "old" L is not being saved. Though dilapidated and crumbling at the seams it still had a lot of charm.
Eric Dale Smith
Were any R9s in passenger service in 1982?
No, the last ones were removed in 1976 or 1977.
Yes....nearly all the R9 were gone by the end of 1976; the very last revenue run of an R1-9 was on te J line,believe March [3lst ?] l977..wish I had been the M/M on it. What was usually a Carwash trip..Jamaica-Broad and light to Coney Island yard...bring one back..this was the last run to therailyard in the great beyond.
I came up with my own term for carwashers in yards servicing Redbirds.
Birdbaths!! Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
Hasn't anyone figured that the reason for the high cost is that the rest rooms are probably old and non ADA compliant? To make them ADA compliant, the first thing is install a wider door for wheel chairs to pass and with the larger handicapped stalls maybe the walls are knocked down to expand. And since you're doing all this, why not rehab the rest off the facility.
I don't think $10,000 toilet bowls are to blame here.
Bill "Newkirk"
There is another issue. While it is law in Florida other states are putting in 'restroom parity'. If a mens room has two stalls and 2 urinals the women get 4 stalls. This is a problem in many buildings where space is tight.
Potty parity ... dem zany politicos ... now if only they could pay a woman a DOLLAR when a man makes a DOLLAR, we'd be getting
somewhere. Hopefully the toilets make the proper announcements and go "bing bong" before the lid goes down. :)
"This is a Flushing Bound W train. The next stop will be Water Street".
"Stand clear of the closing lid please".
--Mark
You forgot to "bing bong" ... :)
Flushing bound #2 train.
hey everybody i was just wondering what trains were in service in the year 1982 all i know was the r-32,40/42,44,46,and 62 any older ones. thanks
If you are talking 1982:
"B" division:
Quite a few R10 were still puttering around although far short of the full fleet; these were mostly on the "GG" and were in awful shape. The "CC" had some as well.
R16 was just about extinct, all the 6400s were gone and the last of the 6300s were in Eastern Division, on their last legs.
There were also quite a few R27/R30/R30A still running, mostly in Eastern Division, in 1982-1983, these made up the bulk of the "LL" stock and could also be seen on the "J" and "M".
In "A" division:
The R62 was still on Kawasaki's drawing boards back then. The newest IRT equipment was indeed the R36. The oldest was the R17, which made up almost the whole fleet of the #4. There were also quite a few R21 and R22 up and running. The R12/R14/R15 were just about gone, although a number of these went to work motors and rider cars, and, surprisingly, several of these warhorses survive to this very day.
wayne
There were quite a few R16's still on the JML lines right until about 1984, and even into 1985 i believe, but definitly still in 1984.
R16 was just about extinct, all the 6400s were gone and the last of the 6300s were in Eastern Division, on their last legs.
R16 was just about extinct, all the 6400s were gone and the last of the 6300s were in Eastern Division, on their last legs.
There were quite a few R16's still on the JML lines right until about 1984, and even into 1985 i believe, but definitly still in 1984.
The R-12s were pulled in 1981, but the R-14s were still around in 1984. I saw a few of them in October of that year.
Most of the R14/R15 cars were still in service in 1982. They both went in 12/84.
Wayne:
In 1986, I remember crossing New Utrecht Avenue every weekend day and noticing R-16's signed for "M" service, with the BLUE bullet, laid up on the center track of the West End El.
They were still laying up trains on the el at that late date.
Sorry if I confused anyone with the dates; what I meant was that the R16 was ALMOST gone by 1982, they would ultimately last a few years past that.
wayne
...until they were finally put out of their misery.
That's not true. The J line was populated by R16's (6300 & 6400 series) well into 1985. In 1984, it seemed as though 3 out of every 4 J trains during the rush hours was R16.
And they used the old orange JJ signs on their roller curtains. The irony there is that R-27/30s had taken over that service when the JJ marking was adopted in November of 1967. That JJ train I rode on in March of 1968 was an R-27/30 consist.
In 1986, I remember crossing New Utrecht Avenue every weekend day and noticing R-16's signed for "M" service, with the BLUE bullet, laid up on the center track of the West End El.
Wasn't the M on the Brighton until 1987?
It was on the West End when I lived in Bensonhurst in 86-87.
>>>Wasn't the M on the Brighton until 1987? <<<
The "M" was on Brigton January, 1973 till April, 1986.
Then to 95th Street, prior to West End.
:-) Sparky
I wasn't sure of the date (1986-1987). It happened I believe when the manhattan Bridge was closed on one side for the first time to 6th Avenue trains.
I didn't ralize the M went to 95th for a while between when it was on Brighton to when it became west end.
No, the M never went to 95th St. after being removed from the Brighton line in 4/86. It was immediatley routed to 9 Av/Bay Parkway, as it is today.
It did briefly run to 95th to replace the R special. Right after that they decided to put it on the West End.
After the M got pulled off the Brighton line, there was a period of time in the PM rush that service alternated between Bay Pkwy (lay up) and 95th St.(returning lite to 36/4 then in service to Met). Later, there was a period of time in which all M's leaving Met for a spell in the PM rush went to 95 (again, these returned lite to 36/4 then in service to Met) with Bay Pkwy service provided by ENYD put ins (these went into service at Essex IIRC, then laid up at Bay Pkwy).
No M train signed as "M" that I could see ever ran to 95th St in 1986, and I would have noticed (I practically lived underground at this time). Only those labeled as "R" did, even if they ran to/from Metropolitan Ave and were defacto "M" trains.
Route signs were changed from M to R at Met while the destination signs were changed to 95. As the trains returned lite to 36/4th the conductor would change the R gack to M and 95 back to 36 St. R27/30's did not have Ninth Ave. signs. Yes, technically they were M trains but that was no concern to passengers, they got them to Bay Ridge.
The R27/30's on the M were always signed as "36th St, Brooklyn" when going to 9th Ave.
That is true, I remember the trains saying 36th Street Brooklyn on the M R37-30's. I do remember the "blue door" R40-42's saying 9th Avenue though, IIRC. When the M trains said 36th ST, did they actually run to 36th and discharge, or stay in service until 9th?
They ran in service to Ninth Ave.
I wasn't really a "subfan" back then so I didn't pay much attention to where it went although it was when I was in high school and was really starting to like the subway, so I remember the 36th St destination sign very well. Actually I used to love flipping through the rollsign to see all the diferent destinations.......of course the sign would never wind up back at "36th Street".....KIDS!!!
I guess I must have cussed you out on occassion!
Yeah, probably........I didn't do it often though, and it's the "worst" thing I ever did to the subway. That's probably pales though into comparision to what some other kids were doing at the time to the trains. The trains were still covered with graffiti at the time, although "scratchiti" was basically non-existent at the time.
Oh, man, I was a terrible rollsign changer..although I would always change them back..plus, I was unhappy with the later rollsigns which couldn't be manipulated by hand..
In fact, it was my rollsign changing in 1985 where I first saw a "V 6th Av." bullet, on a Brooklyn bound RR (R-32) at Times Sq.
Yeah, I found the "V" sign when I was "fixing" some signs on the 6th Ave shuttle (R27's) in 1986.
The only time I ever changed a sign was once on a BMT standard at Eighth Ave. One of the route signs wasn't set to "14th St. L'c'l", so I set out to remedy the situation and started cranking away. Meanwhile my mother was throwing a fit as to what would happen if the conductor were to see me. I stopped when the sign said "LOCAL", figuring it was close enough. Looking at my route curtain, it appears the generic "Express" and "Local" signs were in the middle of the roll, between the Southern and Eastern Division groupings.
I was once cussed out by a conductor in 1986 for setting the signs properly on a 5 train @ Dyre. The destination signs were set for Flatbush Ave, and I was changing them to Bowling Green.
See, no good deed goes unpunished......
That is true, I remember the trains saying 36th Street Brooklyn on the M R37-30's.
oops, you know what I mean.....R27-30's
Depends. Sometimes GO's forced the M (or J when this was extended to cover M service south of Broad St.) to turn at 36th St. Either way, the R27/30's always said 36th St, because they didn't have 9th Ave signs. R16's and R42's did, though.
I could have sworn I saw a "Ninth Avenue" sign on an R-27/30 in one scene in The Warriors. Time to dig out my DVD and jump to that specific scene.
OK, I dug out my DVD of The Warriors and checked out the aforementioned scene. Sure enough, R-30 8435 was signed up from top to bottom, Chambers St./9th Avenue/M-Nassau St. Express. You have to look quickly to see it, freeze framing confirmed it.
Chances are the R-27/30s did have 9th Avenue signs on their original roller curtains, but not on their replacement curtains.
I think this has been mentioned before, but here goes: Hoyt-Schermerhorn was disguised not only as 96th St., but Union Square as well. They used the tiled columns for the Union Square setting and the bare columns for 96th St. Union Square manifested itself in several ways besides Hoyt-Schermerhorn - in one scene, they used the actual station on the Canarsie line, then a brief shot of a station solumn on the BMT Broadway line, and even a few shots of the IRT stop. The train marked "No Passengers" appears to have at least three R-12/14s in a row.
I never saw this service in practice, so it must've been very short lived. I rode an M to Bay Parkway within days after the north side closure of 1986.
The Astoria express track was always full, end to end, with laid up B & RR trains around this time.
What would one expect to see on the D and 4 around that time?
If memory serves:
D: R-32, R-40M, R-42
#4: R-17, R-21, R-22, R-33
David
Actually....I remember the 4 being almost completely R-17, with a few few R-21's thrown in, until it went to R-62.
By the way, I NEVER saw redbirds on the 4, not that anyone said they saw them...I'm just saying :)
Totally correct about the D, though. I think the R-32's were there for only a short while, like between 83-84.
There are Redbirds on the 4 right now! There aren't enough R-62's to fill the 4's needs.
Oh, I'm sorry, I meant back in the 80's.
I only saw redbirds on the 5 and 6 as far as Lexington Ave. was concerned.
I didn't know the term "Redbird" was in use before the late 80's. Before then, everything was multicolored.
I never called them redbirds at all back then...I just called them and the green ones "rebuilt cars".
If I remember correctly, Mr. Greenberger, when I read about the rebuilt cars when they started coming out with them (in NY Newsday, I believe) the paintjob was called "Silverfox" because of the silver roofs and fox red bodies.
Anyone else remember that?
I got the term "redbird" from here, to be honest.
Up until April, the R38s were definately on the "D" until they transfered to the "A".
38's on the D?
April of what year, 1984?
I don't think I EVER saw 38's on the D in the early 80's.
38's on the D....
sounds kinda funny, if ya think of it *grin*
They appeard there sometimes in 1981. I remember seeing something that looked like a 42, but things were different about it, similar to a 32. Even though not many believe this, they were on the M (and were shorter to prove it), where I first got to see the inside of it, proving it was older than a 42. Then, as well as the D, they were on the QB, AA/B and RR! Then in early '82 they suddenly disappeared. It wasn't until May 14th when I had a half-day of school and I decided to check out the new Port Authority gates 1-40 (which were under reconstruction with the current red tiles), that I took the F to the A and found that the 38's had moved to that line, where they remained to the present.
Yes, I've operated R38's on the M/QB and on the D during that period of time.
I saw and rode on R-32s on the D when I returned for the first time in four years in October of 1984. It was great to see both route and destination signs up front once again as well as dark blue doors.
32's were the mainstay of the D ever since Chrystie (actually, right before that to familiarize the crews) until the 68's and 68A's took over. Although, when I began riding to school in 1980, it was hard to find them, yet when the 44's went, they came back.
Nah, 40Ms and 42s were on the D just before the arrrival of the 68s.
Peace,
ANDEE
I wasn't on the line much back then (had moved, and was away in college, anyway in fact), but I do know when I came home and the split had occurred, the 32's and slant 40's were on the southern half (with the 68's beginning to arrive), and all the 40m/42's were on the northern half, and about 30 R-32's were kept up there as well (don't know why). So this made it look like the D had had all of those classes and simply divided them durng the split.(Slants began appearing in '83, yet I hear there were times after that when they wern't there. I assumed they were.) Of course, it could have been 40m/42's only, and the southern half received its equipment from the rest of the CI fleet.
During the last two months or so of the Manhattan Bridge split, the R32s (cleaned up and doors painted blue inside & outside) started appearing on the northern portion of the "D". The R40m/42s appeared on both sections of the "D".
During the last two months or so of the Manhattan Bridge split, the R32s (cleaned up and doors painted blue inside & outside) started appearing on the northern portion of the "D". The R40m/42s appeared on both sections of the "D".
I think at first the 40m/42's were on the southern half, but as they were being repainted, and the 68's coming in, they all wound up on the northern half and the eastern div. only. There were always a couple of 32's on the K/B/D, and as I later read, about 30 cars were assigned to Concourse.
Of course, right after the lines were rejoined, the 42's were back on the Q, but eventually, the 68's took that over as well.
As a rookie motorman, I worked the midnight tour on the D in the summer of 1982. An occasional R27/30 would show up from time to time as well.
I observed another trainset in service on the 5, 6371-75 and 6386-90. Bring 'em on!
-Stef
I was assigned to that train for a Put-in last week but didn't go out.
Observed it last week on the 5 from 149-GC to Bowling Green. Have the pics to prove it...
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
That's good. Unfortunately, I only had the opportunity to observe it in the last day or so, operating. I can't be at the railfan window all the time!!!
-Stef
I'm not going, and I really would NOT recommend it.
For such a long bus ride, there's no food court and nowhere reasonable to eat.
I'd rather go to Garden State Plaza anyday!
Now if only they'd extend HBLR down there, though the 171 bus ride aint bad.
Since you haven't been there, and never intended to go except to eat, then I don't consider your recommendation useful.
Now, what do people who have experienced it think?
In the mall guide, there is very little to choose from for places to eat, there is no food court.
Also I remember hearing awhile ago about buses having to stop far away from the mall.
Why are you going to take a bus for a long time to get to a mall just to eat anyway? There aren't enough places to eat in the city or in Nassau?
You don't have a stove?
The whole idea of going to a mall is that everything you need is there, so you don't have to go somewhere else. If they don't have a reasonable place to eat, then you have to travel somewhere else. If you traveled by car it wouldn't be a problem. But by bus, it would be. And I didn't find any reasonable places by Short Hills either.
Especially when it's hot, it is much easier when everything is all in one place. My body is not too fond of hot weather, I've gotten heat exhastion countless times.
Also Short Hills does not even have a drugstore or Radio Shack. Reminds me of Walt Whitman.
Garden State Plaza? We used to go there in the spring of 1967 right after we moved out to Jersey. I haven't seen it since 1968 or '69. IIRC it's surrounded by Rt. 4, Rt. 17, and the Garden State Parkway.
It has been enclosed and expanded since then, you wouldn't recognize the place.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've also been to Short Hills Mall with my sister. She lives in the next town over.
For some strange reason-there were 11 singles in service on the 7 today. Here's the consist:
2128-2130-2123-2122-2139-2141-2120-2112-2114-2119-2117
2128 2119 2117 were blue stickered. Rest were purple.
2128 had no sign as the north motor. 2112 and 2114 were signed #1.
1701-1705 are sitting in the yard with some type of defect.
1676-1680 are getting the purple treatment.
I assume that's the reason for the 11 singles.
I will say this-it beats the transverse cabs.
#2128 ???
#1696 7 Flushing Express
1676-1680 were in service today. they still have the yellow stickers. They were on the very next # 7 Exp. The 11 car ALL single consist was a local.It was taken O/O/S at Main Street. around 7 PM. It was very rare indeed to have a railfan window on the NORTH end for the R 62As. The last time that happened was on April 13th during the 10 car test day.
Perhaps they didn't have enough unitized units to make up a train, so they relied on all singles today.
It might be possible.
-Stef
What's the purple treatment?
Is it just affixing the purple Corona Yard stickers under the car numbers?
Yep-exactly. Also I did see 1676-1680 this morning still supporting their yellow stickers.
#2124 7 Flushing Local
#1680 7 Flushing Express
First good news on the WTC recovery front. US&S won the contract to re-do the PATH Hudson Tubes and the new WTC temp station. They will be providing all their new signaling and relay equipment. W/ US&S on board the PATH tubes will pretty much go back to the way they were. At the very least we get new high quality US&S signaling. At the very best US&S will install new or cleaned up penumatic trip stops, switch machine and if we're lucky, the original wayside signals After all a little water probably woudln't ruin one of those cast iron US&S signals from 1920 or so. I hope PATH realizes its easier to wash up the old signals than install new ones. Those old US&S signals were built to last and are slightly better than even the new US&S models. At least the tubes won't be polluted by traffic light style GRS crap. Any bets on this? Old signals? Pneumatic trips? Manual interlocking for the new station?
I don't think so. Granted, there's a compatibility issue, but I don't see the PA buying an 'old' signal system. I would expect anything installed new would be easily converted to CBTC, or another modern control system. This likely means electric trip arms, automatic interlockings, and steel or aluminum signla housings. Do you have any idea what the old cast-iron signal heads weigh?
-Hank
Do you have any idea what the old cast-iron signal heads weigh?
A LOT. Which means more workers to install. Equals higher costs.
They probably use a crane to install both.
They are not getting any sort of CBTC. Its going to be a plain old wayside ABS system, possibly Rule 261 running through the tubes now that they have a crossover at Exchange place. On PATCO, another US&S job, they re-used the old cast iron heads from the former Bridge Line in the subway portions and then got new heads for the mailine portions so there is precident for this and it does result in cost savings. Aside from weight there is no differance in maintainence costs so it would make good economic sence to use the existing heads that already have the correct lenses in place.
Don't the PATH lines currently use automatic interlockings, like the NYC Subway uses?
- Lyle Goldman
If the heads were underwater then the lampholders and contacts are
garbage. The current lampholder brackets that USS makes do not
fit into the old heads. I doubt they will bother machining custom
kluge brackets just to save a little iron, nor will they pay someone
to sit there and try to clean up the old stuff. The business
just doesn't work that way anymore. The contractor is going
to come in, scrap _everything_, install all new conduits, cases and
signals.
I don't think USS makes pneumatic stops anymore, at least I don't
remember seeing it in their catalog. Their switch machine offering
is also all-electric.
They are all in their catalog, stops, switches and PL signals.
Will sombody give JM some US&S Hardware (admittedly, that old iron is kinda cool) Trivia, how many people know that US&S made .45 caliber pistols during WWII. these pistols have the US&S logo on the slide and are the most highly prized variation of the M1911 pistol
That's sweet.
Does the safety say "Normal" and "Reverse?"
LOL, that floored me. I'm a hopeless signal-fan.
Would safe be normal or reverse?
I guess the safer position of a signal lever would be normal, eh?
It they had made an automatic rifle they could have had the selector be R, L and STOP and the bolt would be set to Normal and Reverse.
We have a handful of US&S T-2 semaphore signals- stored inside awaiting restoration.
The date tags on the motors say 1915.
bob d.
Bob, those are T-2, top-of-mast mechanisms?
Another delay has been announced for the opening of the first section of Boston's "Silver Line." The story from The Boston Globe.
In my opinion, this BRT (bus rapid transit -- an oxymoron) will be a huge failure. Sure, it can be retrofitted to light rail some day. RIGHT!
$601 million for a busway - I don't have the knee-jerk reaction to BRT that some people have, but that is simply ridiculous.
Jim D.
They're trying to do Bus Rapid Transit ("Rapid Commute Vehicle") right on Long Island.
Well Now that most TAs are getting incompatable stuff (R-142 line maps that will never be updated). They will have to pay twice the cost in the future just for custom cars and custom workers and custom equipment. The PCC trolly was a good idea. But now the every LRL has a different system, most of them will be scrapped in the future. And Remember LRVs are the thing that is "IN" right now.
Latest word about the WTC site for subways and trains, from what I just heard on Channel 7: The 1/9 line should be ready by October, and the PATH line should be ready in 2004.
Old news.
Today ended the recovery operation from 9/11. Tomorrow will start the rebuilding process. Question will be what will they place at Ground 0? I know for sure that there will be memorial monument for all of the victims that were lost on 9/11.
Also will the 9 come back in October with the South Ferry service?
Here's what I think should happen:
I believe that the 1 should remain going to New Lots Ave during the rush hours only and have only the 9 going into South Ferry. The 3 would act like the 1 and 9 does in Upper Manhattan and the Bronx but in Brooklyn. Late nights and weekends only the 1 would go to South Ferry. The 3 would go to New Lots Ave at all times. Any opinions?
#2340 #1
#2346 #3
#2381 #9
Way too confusing.
Skip stop service only works properly when both trains run between the SAME terminals. Once one of the trains go to a different path, the skip stop doesn't work, because one line will have an advantage over the other line. This is one of the reasons the J or Z don't use the express track between eastern Pkwy and Myrtle. It works between Myrtle and Marcy because the M runs local there, and both the J and Z run express.
"Any opinions?" HUH?
If it twas I....
I'd run (1) 242 to South Ferry 24/7
and EXPRESS 145 - 96 and Lcl to SF Rush Direction
and (9) Local 242 - SF Rush Hours
If the junction at 96th was like the one at 125th on the Lex, I'd run the 1 express to New Lots except nights, 2 Express to Flatbush all times (nights local), 3 local to South Ferry except nights and 9 local to South Ferry rush hours and nights.
Since it's not designed that way, the simplest way is the plan that existed before, just no 9.
2004?
I thought that they were going to use a temporary terminal. BY that time no one will remember that PATH went to Hudson Terminal (or WTC if you like) and the line will quietly be abandoned and slip into history.
Summer 2003 for Exchange Pl and December 2003/January 2004 for World Trade Center. NOBODY in Downtown Jersey City is going to forget the World Trade Center PATH Terminal!!
Didn't it take less time to build the 1904 IRT system?
I'm new to the Sub-Talk board...in fact this is my first posting.
If anyone could answer the following questions, or at least shed some light on the circumstances around the aforementioned decisions by the MTA, I would be appreciative.
I am curious as to why the "G" train NOW ends at "Smith and 9th Streets"? It was originally planned to terminate at "Church Avenue" but instead ends in the middle of "No-where-land". Whats the logic behind the decision? From my understanding there are existing express tracks in place from "Bergen Street" to "Church Avenue" that are not currently in revenue use. Why not have an express train either the "F" or the "G" use these tracks?
My next question question relates also to the "F" and "G" train service. Originally, which train, (the "F" or the "G" train) ran as an express in this section of Brooklyn?
I am 49 years of age...Left NYC over 20 years ago...but I still have memories of when I was a kid going to Coney Island with my family... sometimes we would take the "Culver" while we would depart on the "Brighton" line.
I can still picture the train "Conductors" for the "NYC Transit" and how they would climb up between the cars and "Perched-themselves" (one foot on each of the train cars) by Standing between the cars in order to close the train doors. I also remember that the Conductors would have on a "good pair of gloves" to try and keep the grease off their hands. Man,it has been a long time ago....
I believe one of the reasons that the express is not run there is because the stations in between would loose direct Manhattan service, as the G would be the only train using 4 Ave, etc. I don't know when or if regular service ever used the express tracks. Ideally it would be the V that would be extended to Church, as then the local would also give Manhattan service. If that happened though, I guess the G would also have to be extended to Church because otherwise congestion would occur for the V at Smith-9th, if the G terminated there.
As of right now the lower Bergen tracks are out of service due to some sort of fire, which I don't know was repaired yet. As to when they were actually used for revenue service, I have no idea. You can get a peak at the lower level of the Bergen Express station in the movie,"Jacob's Ladder". At that point the station still had tiles, which have since been removed due to water damage.
The F used to run express during rush hours between Coney Island and Jay Street in the early 70s while F trains leaving Kings Highway ran local. ALso G trains were extended to Church Ave during this time. Until the mid-80s, approximately, F trains from/to Coney Island ran express from Kings Highway to Ditmas Ave in the rush hours. Now all F trains run local at all times and G trains terminate at Smith/9th at all times, too.
--Mark
The G goes to Church on Saturdays only. (Maybe it should be renamed Shul.)
The G only Deadhead to Church Ave. I am on the G over the weekends. We clean out the train @ Smith and 9th Street and DH there, then when we get there a Switchman takes it down and pulls it to the other side.
Robert
Are you sure this is always the case? I've never seen it myself since I don't do much subway riding on Saturdays, but I've heard reports of Saturday G trains running to Church with passengers.
In any case, why bother running light to Church at all? Do trains use the express tracks or the local tracks to get there and back?
Are the express tracks open again after this "fire" that I've heard mentioned form time to time?
The express tracks are 100% usable. All that the fire affects is Bergen interlocking. Specifically, either all trains from Jay to Bergen must use the upper level (local) or all trains from Jay to Bergen must use the lower level (express), and vice versa. So the oft-proposed service pattern of F express and V local is impossible, at least until Smith-9th.
The switches between Smith-9th and 4th Avenue are fully functional. In fact, except on Saturdays, G trains relay on the express track at 4th Avenue.
A few months ago, a recurring weekend GO sent southbound F trains down the express track from Smith-9th to 18th Avenue due to work on the local track at Ditmas. The G was extended to Church via the local track to accomodate most passengers.
About a year ago, a weekday (midday) GO send F trains via the express track between Bergen and 7th Avenue, one week southbound and one week northbound. Trains did not stop at Bergen, but the lower level platform was visible.
That's interesting. How bad is the interlocking damaged, and what is damaged? Is it that hard to fix?
From what I've read here, the tower currently can't control the interlocking due to a fire a few years ago. It hasn't been repaired because the TA wants to take this as an opportunity to install some sort of new-fangled system, only the new-fangled system isn't ready to be installed yet. I'll let someone who knows more fill in the details and make corrections as necessary.
The G did run about a mouth or two back, when the F ran express to Kings Highway express from Smith and 9th. This is the only time that the G runs in sevice pass Smith and 9th street with Costmers serivce.
Robert
From what I have read, it only relays at Church Avenue on Saturdays.
The (G) does not carry passengers between Smith/9th & Church.
There is a crew room at Church Avenue, from when it was a terminal
station prior to 1954.
:-) Sparky
Thanks Robert [B Division T/O] you confirmed at about the same time,
what I posted. Also welcome to my faved line the "GG", pardon me,
the (G). Hopefully your working the line is pleasant.
:-) Sparky
So far so good. The G line is a nice line, there are very few timer on line and you can leave it wide open in most spots on the line. As I told a TSS on Sunday, running OPTO is 100% better then driving a bus in NYC. The TSS thought that B/O get all the repect in the world from the pasager, I set his A-s strait.
Robert
Does the G still build up a good head of steam between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Fulton St.? That train I took back in 1969 sure did.
That is one of the good spots to get up a good head of steem.
Between Nassau Ave and Metropotian Ave is another. Plus in the river tubes is you work the timer right and a good train 40+ and easly be reached.
Robert
If your standing as a rider, and the T/O puts it on the post, you will
swing and sway as the "G" ("GG") traverses under McCarren Park from
Union Avenue to Manhattan Avenue or visa versa on the S curve.
:-) Sparky
I never could understand why the G terminated at Smith and 9th Street instead of say Church Avenue. Could someone please explain that to me. If the F could go to Coney Island why can't the G terminate at Church?
Fred,
Prior to 1954 take over by the IND of the Culver, Church Avenue was the end of line for either the "A", "E" or "F", dependent on year.
It may not have been logistical to send the "GG" to Church Ave. at that time. They could also be short turned at Bergen, if need be.
Another fact, that when the "D" started running to Coney Island, the
rush hours short trips on the McDonald Avenue Trolley Line ceased.
Prior to thru service from Church Ave., the double ended 8000's,provided rush hour tripper service between Church Avenue and Avenue "J". The PCCs ran the full line from PPW/20th Street to
Coney Island. There were no turning loops at Church & McDonald or Avenue "J" & McDonald. Was the last run of doubled ended cars in Brooklyn. Had to get some streetcar history in this post. >G<
:-) Sparky
Thanks for the information Sparky, but today it does seem the G could go to Church Avenue. At least it would appear so to me.
Fred,
I concur, the 'G' ["GG", I'm an old dog with set habits] should go to Church Avenue 24/7 from Continental.
:-) Sparky
The GG did go to Church Ave. during rush hours from 1968 to 1976.
Steve,
I concur that was the only normal extension of the "GG" south of
Smith/9th Streets since the line started operating the full length
in 1937. This past weekend, I purchased a book of maps [it's at the
weekend residence, so I can't refer to it now.] with a 1939 map of
proposed extensions of the subway. One of the things that comes to
mind is the extension off the IND local tracks at Fort Hamilton Pkwy.
southbound to 86th Street. Also branching off this proposed line
was service to Staten Island. Some other highlights of this map,
shows IND Culver service to West 8th Street. Culver BMT as shuttle
between Ditmas & Ninth Avenues. This was 1939.
Now I have a question, speculation accepted, why did they build all
that extensive trackage south from Bergen Street to Church Avenue,
with express trackage & stations?
:-) Sparky
Why not relay the G at Church all the time, then? Why only Saturdays?
I also wonder why they don't extend it to Church, even if the bergen interlocking is not fixed. 5 or 6 trips would be easier with a true terminal where longer breaks, comforts, etc. are possible. It's like they wanted to cut it back as far as they could (Hoyt, preferably), but this was where the first switch is.
Is there still a single crossover switchback at Bergen Street on the
upper level? Can the "G" (GG) discharge at Bergen, run south toward
Caroll & relay back to Bergen Northbound?
:-) Sparky
The upper has a cross over south of the station from B2 (Manhattan) to B1 (Brooklyn) the lower mirrors this B4 to B3 so its a reverse move (from Manhttan bound to Brookln bound). So it won't work.
North of the station is the interlocking that is the problem as stated. X-L18 Ball was Green G (E2 Track) Yellow F (B2 track) city bound.
What I was refering to and this is from memory, that during a
track project, "GG" southbound terminated at Bergen Street.
To go further south, you had to go to lower level at Bergen and
catch the train southbound. I think only Caroll & Smith/9 were
skipped and normal southbound service resumned at 4th Avenue.
Not sure may have been express stations southbound only to Church.
Anyway, the "GG" relayed & returned Northbound to Continental
from Bergen in lieu of Smith/9. Northbound service from Church to
Bergen was normal.
:-) Sparky
Church Ave. was a terminal station long after 1954. At least into the mid-1960s, half of the 'D' trains terminated at Church Ave. and did not run all the way to Coney Island.
-- Ed Sachs
And if I remember, the F trains were turnred at 2nd Ave.
At some point, the B was apparently turned at 2nd Avenue.
Judging by the picture, I say it was after 1968. B and D trains were going to Stillwill Ave via Manhattan Bridge. F trains were also going to Stillwell via Culver. And at one point some B trains were turned at 2nd Ave.
How old is your photo?
That sign is current (though reflecting the pre-7/22 service). I think "B" in that case refers to the night time shuttles from 21st St. which resumed when the went back to Queens on midnights. There were some weekend G.O.s that also had shuttles to 2nd Av; sometimes signed "B".
I took the picture on February 24, 2002, while waiting for an R-32 to carry me down the express track in Brooklyn. (And guess what: the very next train was exactly what I was waiting for!)
I suppose it could have been the late night Queensbridge shuttle, but didn't that run express? Then again, so did the D and the daytime B, but they're included here for completeness.
When 2 Ave was my home station, 1998-2000, it wasn't uncommon for a couple of Bs to short-turn at 2 Ave (with proper signage!).
During the day? Interesting. Both weekdays and weekends?
Did they turn around and go back uptown or did they go out of service?
If memory serves, which it probably doesn't, it only happened on weekdays, and they went out of service for a while. This was only during the day; the garbage collector was usually parked on those tracks late nights.
No. The (F) turned at 34th Street.
Elias
But Rush Hours did were they not extended to Second Avenue?
Prior to Chrystie St., F trains terminated at 2nd Ave. except during nights and weekends, when they only went as far as 34th St. They were cut back one stop to Broadway-Fafayette when it came time to tie the express tracks into the Chrystie St. connection.
I guess the F trains terminated at 34th St when the old BB wasn't running?
Thanks to all of the posters who responded to my inquiry on the "F" and "G" Trains in Brooklyn. Y'all helped to clarify my understanding of the history of these lines and importantly you've voiced your personal opinions and constructive senerio's, which if implemented, could greatly increase and improve ridership on these lines.
Based on what I have read in these posts, it can be safely reasoned that the "F" and "G" lines have really suffered a loss of ridership by the general public. Since there is no express service offered on either one of these lines,I guess the general public has found alternative means of trasportation to use. (express busses, driving etc. in lieu of the culver line. Thanks again for your opinions and clarifications.
Not necessarily. Keep in mind that passengers waiting at local stops (i.e., most stops) are better served by the current arrangement than if alternate trains ran express or if the G were the only local.
I disagree with you, I'd say the F line in Brooklyn is only *somewhat* underserved. It has quite crowded trains throughout rush hour, but rarely the sardine packing I remember from even the slightest delayed 1&9 trains when I lived UWS. It's frustrating to see a couple of Vs go by before my F arrives, but I think they've improved service a little from when the V first started.
As far as alternate transportation goes, I don't think there is much Express Bus service along the F route, maybe all the way down in C.I. The Carroll Gardens/Cobble Hill area doesn't even have a direct bus downtown, despite it's close proximity. I think they do use yellow cabs and car service to get downtown, but that is more due to poor downtown connections than service levels.
What the F really needs more than anything though is a good easy connection in brooklyn to the N&R for getting downtown, and a connection to both directions on the 6 for the East Side, and both are slated to happen someday.
I don't think you're disagreeing with me. All I said is that the lack of express service doesn't necessarily indicate that the line isn't well-used -- it may just mean that given its usage patterns, it makes more sense to run only locals than to divert some locals to the express track. Look at what happened to the N/W in Queens.
Sorry, I meant to disagree with who you were replying to.
If you mean Downtown Bklyn, the B75 bus runs along with the F from 15St-PPW all the way up to Jay St.
The old BB only ran in rush hours, from 34th street to 168th Street. Does anyone know how many cars the BB had?
they had 8 cars i think
I'll concur on the eight car "BB", I think they added 2 cars at
168th for the change over from "AA" to "BB" for the rush hours.
The "CC" were extras from Concourse and 8 cars.
:-) Sparky
I just wanted to thank all members responses that have been posted on this topic. Y'all have really given me an education, not only the history of these train lines, but more importantly what progressive steps are in store to improve the lines and bring them back to optimum utilization for the public.
The more I read about the history of the NYC Subways I can only envision the blood, sweat, tears and sacrifices that went into their planning, approval and construction (not to mention the lobbying and politics...lol).
The education and information I have received by reading these message boards has enlighted me to the on-going maintenace issues (cost of maintenance as well as the approval and awarding of projects) and the impact that they can have on a State and municipal budget. It all boils down to.... "It is nice to have a large and efficent public transportation system that can attract business and labor but it is quite another issue to have the financial resourses and skilled labor to keep this system running efficently."
No wonder States, like Florida, are reluctant to initiate a "state of the art" high speed rail system or municipal light rail system. The last major undertaking was the Metro Rail in Miami. I remember all of the critics and opponents duing it's construction. One critic was then President Reagan. Visiting Miami during his re-election bid in 1984, his comment on the Metro Rail was... what a waste of money...for it's cost of construction the Federal Gov't could have bought every man, woman and child in Dade county a brand new Cadillac. The alleviated traffic jams, air pollution, and quality of life issues were never addressed in his comments.
IMHO for the majority of States to embark on the system of mass transit BEFORE the infrasturcture of a major city is built would not only require a large initial cash outlaw, (Bond Sale if a "Public Authority" like the MTA) but most importantly Federal mass transit funding. Another issue, maintenace of the rapid transit system on an annual basis, in most cases would be cost prohibitive, unless these cities received guidance from cities like New York.
My congradulations are to NYC for having a fine rapid transit system that many other metropolitan cities can only dream of obtaining.
Thanks again GP38 and Mark S. for your informative responses to the questions I had for the "F" and "G" route in Brooklyn.
You are very welcome, hope you enjoy sub talk! It's very informative and fun...... BTW what is the "shamu" stand for?.......anything to do with sea world?
(I am curious as to why the "G" train NOW ends at "Smith and 9th Streets"?
Extending it to Church would require more trains to cover the distance. The TA has a shortage of cars, and money for crews, and the ridership does not justify it.
(From my understanding there are existing express tracks in place from "Bergen Street" to "Church Avenue" that are not currently in revenue use. Why not have an express train either the "F" or the "G" use these tracks?)
A fire destroyed a switching machine -- a contract to replace it, the switches and the signals should be awarded next month. Until that work is done in 2004, the express tracks are not usable.
The G only runs once every ten mintues, and running the F express would force riders in intervening stations to have a long wait, and then switch. A understamd that a councilman in Windsor Terrace was instrumental in eliminating this arrangement.
It would be nice thought to send some Culver trains express in the rush hours when they get all bunched up. I hope they do that in 2004.
has the 6 line recieved all of its R142As? i was on the redbird fantrip on sunday and when the train entered Westchester yard, there were ALOT of R142As, i would say about 30-40 by a guess. they were all operational, saying NOT IN SERVICE, OR 6 TO PELHAM BAY PARK. those plus the ones i had already seen on the road makes me wonder are they finished getting their new cars already? I still saw about 2 sets of R62As in the yard, not to mention 4 on the road.
anyways i will say this about A division's 6 line. i live in Queens, but if i become a Motorman which i want badly, i would pick a division JUST FOR THE 6 LINE.
another question, R142As dont get put to bed? i noticed they looked like they were still on when they were in the yard? i have been in a B division yard before, and i notice R46s get turned off, even the signs. any reason R142As remain on?
The No.6 is a Good line to work. I know T/O's that enjoy working the No.6 Line. I only see the No.6 one day a week but that because I choose to work the No.5 most of the week.
It was one thrill after another during the two fans trips a few days ago. One day before our Redbird trip I hit town only to find out that my hotel room was not ready and had three hours to kill. Well you can guess what I did. I rode the Sea Beach and just decided to gut it out while it slagged its way through the vermin infested Montague Tunnel. But shock of shock just past Canal Street, I think, I noticed some light and when I got up to look at the railfan windown, lo and behold we were just coming up to the Manny B. What a hoot. I rode my train to Kings Highway, got a quick snack and headed back. This time, though, we never went over the bridge. I guess it was a one way route for the N. Then an hour later I met up with Marty Seigal and we went railfanning and took in Coney Island. I am already anticipating my trip to the Big City in October.
Fred, I'm sorry I missed meeting you on Monday's trip. I was there (wearing a "Dashing Dan" tee shirt).
That's where the N belongs - on the bridge!
Tell the truth - the biggest thrill of all had to be the express jaunt on the Sea Beach, right?:-) How fast was that train going?
It was moving at a good pace but not tearing up the track. There was one stretch in the tunnel where it picked up pretty good speed.
The re-routed W's crawl along the express track, groaning like Hippos usually do.
"Oh no it's a hungry, hungry Hippo"
-Homer Simpson
It seems you just saw the episode tonight where they visit Pepsi Presents New Zanzibar.
All weekend Southbound N's went over the bridge, south R terminated at Canal (led to arguments as to the holding lights were starting lights or were they holding lights).
Got to read your GO's Fred!!
Hey Lou, it is hard to read TA GO's when your living in California and then traveling on a plane. We don't get GO's out here, but it was a pleasant surprise and it pleased me. BTW, it was good to meet you on the Redbird trip. Maybe you'll be in the group that gets together this October.
Fred, go to www.mta.info and navigate your way to the subway page. Then click on service advisories and it will give you GOs for all the lines.
Thank you blood brother.
I have been waiting to post this for three months!!! The best thing about the Winter Olympics in SLC was DART (Dallas) LRVs on assignment to handle the overflow crowds on the Sandy Line. It was quite a sight! Anyone know how the cars got from Dallas to Salt Lake?
I believe it was delivered by trucks. I seen pictures in www.lightrail.com a DART train unloaded from a flatback truck to the TRAX tracks.
Salt Lake City also recently bought used San Jose LRTs. Does anybody know if they are in revenue service?
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net has under Salt Lake City photos of DART trains used in the Winter Olympics.
Since the V Train is not getting alot of customers, they should cut the V Train to 4 Cars and have the G Train back to a 6-8 Car Set. Does anyone agree or disagree with this statement?
-AcelaExpress2005
I don't think there is turning capacity for both, regardless of how many cars.
:-) Andrew
A four car train during rush on 6th Ave will cause confusion, but 8th ave has gotten used to the C but only 4 cars??
Which carries more passengers per train, the V or the G? According to reports I've seen, the V runs at 52% loading (I don't know when or where this is measured). If V trains were cut in half and their headway and passenger load remained constant, the V would be above 100% loading, more than the current E, F, R, and (I assume) G. If anything, the V will become more popular over time as people figure out what it is and where it goes. So it looks like it would be a bad idea.
Also, short trains cause problems with cross-platform transfers. The G has no cross-platform transfers on weekdays and has three nights and weekends. The V has nine, if my count is correct (granted, two are to the Grand Street shuttle, which also runs short trains).
How about a 480ft, 8 Car, V train, so that it could be routed through onto the Eastern Division?
It could be done, although, again, short trains and cross-platform transfers don't get along very well.
A few months ago, I had suggested sending merging the C with the J, seeing as the C already runs short trains. But a few months ago I had the opportunity to ride a mighty crowded rush hour C train. If that's typical, the C could certainly use full-length cars. So perhaps a better suggestion, after all, would be to extend the C to full-length and shorten the V's trains, sending them over the Williamsburg Bridge.
I'd like to see reactivation of the Chrystie-Nassau connection. The V seems like it could be a candidate for that. The original K routing could never really be used again because 57th/6th can be used as a terminal anymore now that 63rd St is in operation. So it could only be either the V or the C routing.
Sending the "V" over the old "K" connection and so on to Broadway Junction and to Canarsie would work, but not with 75 foot cars. Solution: swap R46 ("V") Jamaica Yard stock with R32 ("C") Pitkin Yard stock, and run the R32s on the "V". 8 cars? Yes,that issue's been raised before. It's a problem without a real solution.
wayne
8 cars? Yes,that issue's been raised before. It's a problem without a real solution.
It's no problem. Short trains have run on QB before (the G Train). Plus, if the load on the V is really only 52%, this would only rise to 65%. It wouldn't even be near full.
I concur. Glad somebody did the math.
May increse beyond 65% if the ridership is over the entire
length of the line Forest Hills ~ Canarsie.
YES, send the "V" over the Willy B to Rockaway Parkway.
:-) Sparky
I'm glad you esteem my mathematical ability so much!
Does the section Broadway Junction - not quite Canarsie merit extra service, or would the LL do as at present? (Well, the LL would never do very much except go VERY slowly around curves, but that is my opinion of it!)
What do you mean by "not quite Canarsie?" While it may appear on the fringes thereof, the Rockaway terminal is in the heart of Canarsie.
What do you mean by "not quite Canarsie?"
I mean that the Canarsie Line used to continue three stops further.
That still doesn't mean the current terminal is not in Canarsie.
The old line is still fully traceable to just south of Flatlands Avenue.
That still doesn't mean the current terminal is not in Canarsie.
I know, but any excuse to take a dig at the slow LL Train!
BTW, it has not been called the "LL" for many years. They did away with double letter trains back in the 80's, I believe. The Canarsie Line is simply called the "L" train.
It's funny, my father used to be regular user of the "LL" train back in the 70's and to this day, no matter how many times he's been on the "L" since they changed it, he says, "oh, I'm going to take the LL and transfer to the RR at Union Square. Some habits never die......
Hey I still take the "GG", it used that designation for more years
than the "G" designation. So I'll have riden the "GG" more frequently.
As for the "LL" vs "L", that's the 14th Street Line to me.
:-) Sparky
Gents,
In reality how many riders transfer down from either the LL and
or JJ at Eastern Parkway to the A/C below. [or other combinations
of changing lines]. Offering 'V' service from Canarsie, would
take much transfering away at Broadway Junction[LL]/Eastern Parkway
[J/Z]/Broadway~East New York [A/C]. Also relieve the mad dash at
Essex Street[F]. It's also 2 station stops less from Rockaway Parkway
via B'way El\Chrystie Street to 14th Street & Sixth Avenue. The
routing via the Willy B is straighter. But that's my opinion.
:-) Sparky
Also relieve the mad dash at
Essex Street[F].
I really think the service would work well. (much better than the KK did in the late 60's) It would also help M riders, as they would no longer feel the need to use the Myrtle-Wyckoff transfer and take the L, which is faster to midtown than the M (even after transfers). I really don't think it would affect the J/Z skip stop either, and the V could run express between Eastern Pkway and Myrtle. I would assume the J/Z/V could all run express between Marcy and Myrtle, otherwise to keep the skip stop working, as to not letting the J or Z be better than the other, make them skip stop b/w Myrtle and Marcy, and put the M on the express track with the V.
lol if they want to encourage people to go on the V they need to put the R143s on it. My proposed V route would be 71st Continental Queens to Canarsie Brooklyn via christie Street. I think people might actually think of riding the line if they do that
That's stupid. Why put R143's, if it's the same route. New trains or not, it's the route that matters. Though what you mentioned was good.
Well if it becomes an Eastern Division Train, it very well may have R143....
This is too much service over the Williamsburg Bridge, something has to give.
The ONLY practical option is to send the V to Metropolitan.
That's what I suggested way back in this thread. I don't want the TA to spend money adding additional service where the current service isn't overcrowded. I suggested merging the V and M into a single service, with the J/Z picking up where the M now goes south of Broad. This wouldn't be a service increase, but it would make life easier for some people.
This is too much service over the Williamsburg Bridge
How many tph can the Willy B take?
It's not a tph issue; it's a traffic issue. The traffic only justifies about 18-20 tph.
So either the M or the V would be eliminated, and the remaining one would run between Continental and Metropolitan. I gues that would work. I would assume the M would die, otherwise the M's would have to become orange. Since the V is already orange, it would be easier to kill the M. Now the question is.....which is the Northern Terminal....Metro used to be the Northern Terminal, now it looks like the V would be going "south", while running directionally north between Myrtle and Metro.
Personally (partly because my name is Mike) I'd rather they keep M and make it orange on the maps, although the rollsigns on the R32s, 40s and 42s don't lend themselves too easily to that.
As for the northern terminal, that's easy - Continental would be the nothern terminal. It's north of Metro, but it does seem strange that the trains would be running directionally north to Metro, but are considered to be running south by train operations.
My only question is, could the extended V be popular enough that it would need to run weekends into Manhattan as well?
Personally (partly because my name is Mike) I'd rather they keep M and make it orange on the maps
I think they should let people vote on whether it becomes aqua, pink or purple.
So would I. With V trains running at only 52% during rush hours, I think they can get away with 480-foot trains on the V and the V can be sent through the Chrystie connection. Even though the V goes through the 53rd St tunnel, and has for 5 1/2 months, I've seen a lot of people let it pass in favor of the E. Maybe sending the V to Brooklyn over the Williamsburg Bridge and to Metropolitan Avenue could be its saving grace. Put 60-foot cars on the V in eight-car trains. Then they can take the R46s currently on the V and make the G six cars again. I agree that a direct Midtown connection from the Willy B could prove to be very popular, as long as it's not only during rush hours like the old KK train used to be.
If the V is really that 'unpopular', then 8-car trains to Williamsburgh do make sense. While it would do nothing to alleviate the very long ride from Jamaica, it certainly would benefit those who normally transfer at Essex/E B'way.
It would also be interesting to see how popular this routing would be.
As a practical matter, tho', if/when they finally get enough cars to increase service on the Culver, sending the V to CI makes the most sense.
Send the (F) and the (C) to CI via Culver
Send the (A) and the (E) to Points east via Fulton
Send the (V) to WTC
Send the (D) to CI all times via Brighton Local
Send the (B) to CI day times via West End Exp
Send the (Q) to CI day times via Brighton Express
Send the (N) To CI via Sea Beach
Send the (W) to CI all times via West End Exp
Send the (R) to Fort Hamilton via the Tunnel
Send the (M) to Fort Hamilton via the Tunnel
: ) Elias
Too much mixing and matching of local services south of W 4th. You can send all 6th Ave locals to lower 6th Ave (WTC/Cranberry tunnel) or all to Houston St, andditto with 8th Ave locals, but if you do half and half for each you can't handle the 20-25 tph each of these lines carry in rush hour.
This is often claimed, but why not? The Queens Boulevard express carries 30 tph despite all the merges and diverges on the E and F.
You never have a swap of services between two full lines on QB. For example, at Queens Plaza inbound in the AM, you have 20 tph coming in on the local track, but 10 of those tph (Rs) peel off before the station. So all that really happens is that 10 Vs merge in with 15 Es on their way to E 53rd. If a V is delayed waiting for an E, it doesn;t slow down the R behind it.
More tricky, in the outbound PM rush, you have 25 trains coming in from E 53rd. The 10 Vs peel off and merge with 10 Rs, causing some risk of delaying the Es behind the Vs. The Es have to merge with the Fs, but not till more than one full signal block ahead, so it's not as close a merge as south of W 4th. So an F in the way of an E won't delay the V behind the E.
So this situation is worse than inbound, but still not as bad as proposed at W 4th. To be that bad, you'd have to have Fs and Rs on the same track, as well as Es and Vs, with Fs then going express and Vs going local.
>> You never have a swap of services between two full lines on QB. For example, at Queens Plaza inbound in the AM, you have 20 tph coming in on the local track, but 10 of those tph (Rs) peel off before the station. So all that really happens is that 10 Vs merge in with 15 Es on their way to E 53rd. If a V is delayed waiting for an E, it doesn;t slow down the R behind it. <<
The Manhattan-bound R and the V both use the local track at Queens Plaza. The R doesn't split until after Queens Plaza, so a V delayed at Queens Plaza could delay an R behind it if it's close enough. Oddly enough, though, the Queens-bound V uses the express track. The Manhattan-bound F (on the express track) is what splits before Queens Plaza.
You're right. I stand corrected. But it's still less bad than what was proposed for south of W 4th St.
According to the track maps, the outbound V has to come in on the express track at QP because the track from E 53rd doesn't feed into the local track before the platform.
I was just thinking about this. Hasn't Gqueens Plaza actually lost service? Before there were four routes using the station, now there are only 3.
It has, but does that matter? Is Queens Plaza such a major source of passengers that the E, R, and V downstairs and the N, W, and 7 upstairs aren't enough? There's more service to Manhattan than there was before 7/22, in any case.
>>>"It has, but does that matter?"<<<
It sure does, if you want to go to Brooklyn, without going thru
Manhattan or the 23rd/Ely~Court Square shuffle.
:-( Sparky
That is also true. The transfer was much easier when you d just use Queens Plaza, and could avoid the whole Ely/Court Square thing. When they first put that transfer in, I couldn't understand why they would even bother to do that, but now it makes more sense, now that the V train has been introduced. I wonder if they had that planned 10 or so years ago when they first put the Ely connection in.
IMO, the connector was built to allow the building above it to be
erected. Hey it's a single subway stop between two of their buildings
in Manhattan & LIC. Inexpensive inter office subway service, ten~fiveteen minutes tops, in non~peak times. >G<
:-) Sparky
Actually it was just an observation, I didn't say it was either good or bad. I agree, it doesn't really hurt them.
As a practical matter, tho', if/when they finally get enough cars to increase service on the Culver, sending the V to CI makes the most sense.
Is extra Culver service actually needed? I understand that trains are regularly turned short etc...
I've always thought that they can run half the F trains express without creating problems. F-circle and F-diamond.
It could be done, although, again, short trains and cross-platform transfers don't get along very well.
480ft is a reasonable train length. If the stop markers centered 480ft and 600ft trains in the same place on opposite platforms, the maximum distance anyone would have to walk would be 60ft. At a leisurely pace of 3mph, it would take 13.6 seconds to walk that. And that is if you are very stupid and get in an end car and exit through the wrong door. Yes, I know there are some very stupid people out there...
And that is if you are very stupid and get in an end car and exit through the wrong door.
How is that stupid. I think that the best door to exit from is the one that has the fewest people vying for it, since the platform and stairs are wider.
Besides, why is a person stupid if they haven't ridden to their destination station before and don't know where the exit is? Or if there wasn't enough time at the origin stop to position yourself properly on the platform?
Finally, is it really a problem? It only creates problems with ATP transfers, but with exiting, you'd probably be doing some platform walking anyway. The big problem is standing near the end of the platform while waiting, as trains sometimes dwell for less than 13.6 seconds.
Well then you dash for it. 13.6 seconds is the time for 60ft at a leisurely walking pace.
Who says the nearest door is only 60 feet away? Short trains often aren't centered, and what about trains shorter than 480 feet?
Short trains often aren't centered
Sadly true, but it would be more efficient if they were.
what about trains shorter than 480 feet?
Eugh! Call that a train?
Sadly true, but it would be more efficient if they were.
Not necessarily. What if the only station exit is at the far end of the platform?
(Not that that governs the stop markers either. The only exit at Smith-9th is at the far north end, but SB G trains pull all the way up to the front of the platform on weekdays. On weekends, they stop where one might expect, since the OPTO and 6-car markers are in different places.)
Eugh! Call that a train?
The G and all shuttles are currently shorter than 480 feet.
The G and all shuttles are currently shorter than 480 feet.
True, but these aren't much of a train!
(So perhaps a better suggestion, after all, would be to extend the C to full-length and shorten the V's trains, sending them over the
Williamsburg Bridge.)
I like that suggestion. I think that direct to Midtown service from the Broadway line would be very popular.
This line is a shadow of its former self. The FTA even suggested getting rid of it in the 1980s. Now, however, it is attracting riders, an with some express service and an extended V, it could attract more.
One problem: 10 V trains per hour, vs. 6 J and 6 Z. With all the merges and other problems, they wouldn't want to got above 10 tph on Queens Blvd, but wouldn't want to go below that level, either.
What about the M?
I don't think the M needs extension.
We sure could use some direct Midtown service over here. But if it's true that they plan to extend the to 10 cars, then perhaps the Eastern div. service would have to be run in addition to the (which perhaps could go express in Manhattan. 8th Av. could always use more service.)
The M isn't being extended. I'm suggesting extending the V and swallowing up the M. This isn't a service increase (if anything, it's a service decrease between Essex and Broad); it's a change that might make life easier for some.
I think he means combining the M with the C. The M would run between Metro Ave and 168th St.
Who, me? No, this time around I'm suggesting combining the V and the M into a single route that runs from Continental to Metropolitan. The J and/or Z could be extended south where the M goes now.
They could probably have less J/Z trains because the V would pick up the slack. A lot of the current J/Z riders may wait for a V because they may be destined for midtown anyway. You also have to remember that after Myrtle, the M will be in that mix also. The V may have to go local between Myrtle and Marcy because I don't think the express could handle the J, Z and V.
In addition the V may have to terminate at Broadway Junction or go on to Canarsie, otherwise the J/Z skip stop wouldn't work anymore. That would allow the J/Z to run express between Eastern Pkwy and the V could run local.
A combination of the V and M routes pretty much is the only option that would work, due to the limited capacity of the Williamsburg Bridge and the number of TPH the V would require rush hours versus the J and Z.
Keeping the M as is and replacing the J and/or Z with the V train would create a mess with skip-stop service, let alone having to possibly split the V into two different letter desigations -- as discussed on another thread, Queens Blvd. riders are confused enough already about when the G does or doesn't stop east of Court Square.
Try to imagine a schedule where the G ran nights, the V ran during the daytime to Continental -- but was cut back to either Essex or Chambers at nights (something's got ot serve the line nights east of Myrtle) -- while during rush hours both the V and the (just to pick a letter) X trains operated on Queens Blvd., and ran skip-stop service on B'way-Brooklyn and Jamaica Ave. Yuch.
due to the limited capacity of the Williamsburg Bridge
What is the capacity of the Willy B?
split the V into two different letter desigations
VJ and VZ. Simple. Oops, why did they abandon double letters, when abandoning single letters would've been so much more useful...
Try to imagine a schedule where the G ran nights, the V ran during the daytime to Continental -- but was cut back to either Essex or Chambers at nights (something's got ot serve the line nights east of Myrtle) -- while during rush hours both the V and the (just to pick a letter) X trains operated on Queens Blvd., and ran skip-stop service on B'way-Brooklyn and Jamaica Ave. Yuch.
Not too bad...
(GG) Smith/9th - Court Sq, extended to Continental nights and weekends.
(JJ) Canal St - Jamaica Local, nights and weekends only.
(VJ) and (VZ) Continental - Jamaica, skipstop on Broadway Brooklyn, weekday daytime only.
The C in Manhattan can get pretty crowded at times, but in Brooklyn east of Nostrand, it's a ghost train.
Do enough A/B R46 sets exist to run 6 car V and 6 car G trains?
An interesting possibility. If not, another potential option is 8 60-footers on the V and 6 60-footers on the G, with the R-46's going elsewhere (perhaps the E, perhaps some other yard entirely).
Could the R-46 cars go on the C?
Sure. They just don't right now.
:-) Andrew
Not if the C remains 480 feet long, since 480 isn't divisible by 75. But if the C is lengthened to 600 feet, sure, why not? Except the relays, the entire C line is duplicated precisely at night by the A, which runs the nearly identical R-44's.
No, the C is not served by the Jamaica yard. No need to waste popular cars on the unpopular C anyway.
How dare you talk about the C Line, like that!!!!!!! I ride the A/C Lines everyday and I think the C Lines in the Morning can be very packed, I've been on the C Train where it has been packed going towards Euclid Ave. because of School such as myself that attends Transit Tech H.S., I for one think that the C Line is popular.
The C is not as popular as some other routes though, that's why it usually winds up with the oldest trains.
The C is avoided by most people for one simple reason: it's completely local. Only those who have to ride it do.
Within Manhattan there is very little advantage to taking the A over the C. I've taken the C lots of times and not regretted it one bit.
Within Manhattan there is very little advantage to taking the A over the C. I've taken the C lots of times and not regretted it one bit.
That's not necessarily true. If your destination is 125th or 145th and you are at let's say 14th, I see a definite advantage to the A over the C.
That "definite advantage" is about five minutes, possibly less. If you just miss an A, it's probably not worth waiting for the next one unless you're going past 168th or Euclid.
You are the exception, not the rule.
I don't ride the C train during rush hours, but I can definitely say that C trains are extremely crowded between 9:00 PM and midnight every day of the week. C trains and Fulton St. Local A trains are very crowded even at 1:00 AM or 2:00 AM.
I was on a crowded C train on Sunday afternoon. I was waiting at 81st, and I didn't just miss a train. A D, an A, another A, and another D passed by on the express track, and a nearly empty C passed by on the local track, before a C stopped for us. The result was one very crowded C, a lot more crowded than any of the five expresses. (And people wonder why I say the D should be local on weekends! At least I've learned that it's not only in the A Division that TW/O's seem to be incapable of switching an express to the local track to fill gaps in local service before they get too long.)
The G has one MAJOR cross platform transfer during the week, Hoyt-Schermerhorn. You know that big station where sometimes film movies and commercials.
I stand seriously corrected. I'm not sure how I missed that one.
Are there any other stations where 600-foot trains (A), 480-foot trains (C), and 300-foot trains (G) all share a single platform at the same time.
There are going to be more cars available with the new cars pushing other stuff around. I say when the remaining 40's reach CI, send the 32's to Jamaica, and perhaps some of the modifieds can go to the , to help extend it to 10 cars, and send more 32's to Jamaica. This should free the 2 car units up to be sent back to the
OH MY GOD AcelaExpress2005, Greeenpoint people will love u for this.
I concur, being a "Greenpointer". And 24/7 on QB.
:-) Sparky
Has anyone gone over to the J line to see how CBTC testing was going. I wish I could make it but I work at night and watch my daugter during the day. I might even have be able to get on with my pass, if they were nice enough.
Robert
Where and when exactly is this testing taking place?
I think he meant OPTO testing on the J line.
No I meant CBTC testing, I posted the inforamtion about the in a Thread with the subject, "CBTC testing to begin" by Unoin Square on May 26. He said that it was going to be on the L line and a correced him that it was on the middle track from Braodway Juction to Mytlye Ave on the J. This track was outfitted with the equepment needed for it. I also posted it on NYRail right before Subtalk came back on line. I got the information about it off a G.O. report at 71ave Foest Hill about a day before I posted in there.
Robert
I had this a couple of weeks ago, and was assigned to it this past Monday, but it was suspended for the holiday. We take the train out to J3/4 and run it at different speeds over the transponders, while the technicians observe the laptops they have connected to the train. In the test I was on, we separated the two units and one stayed in Eastern Pkwy middle. We then had to get two call-ons to move into the station close to it. They were testing how the system works when approaching another train as well. This took place midday.
It is only cars 8113-20 that are outfitted with the CBTC equipment. right now.
Dame it sound like a nice job to me. How did you get it.
Robert
extra extra list (Sat./Sun. too, even as I write)
My mistake. Apologies.
This web servier is one "sick passenger".
Would like to come back to Subtalk, even registered again, but I'm disappointed that the forum uses the same old antiquated software as before.
Got the following error when trying to read messages:
Webserver Errorcore dumped;0`)0$`/0$`=0/H6?V#?@H`=2&!?@@0`G4:BU8
That's a subject of a message. Not an error from the webserver.
Sure had me fooled, thanks.
Just curious why you didn't upgrade to newer software? It's hard to track threads!
Because I like this code. To each their own.
I agree, it's just as easy here to track threads (I use threaded listing), compressed is identical to the NYCRAIL format, and you can easily respond to specific messages and ignore already read posts.
I had a hell of a time trying to figure out where I left off with NYCRAIL, I read fewer threads.
Can't you set the thing up at the "SubTalk" headers to display messages BY THREAD????
Actually, you can customize your views of the postings either Chronologically, BY THREAD, or Compressed. (I'm missing one)
Thank you Dave for allowing more options to view SubTalk!
> Thank you Dave for allowing more options to view SubTalk!
Those options have been there since day one (although compressed was broken for a while.)
I've never got anything like that. Maybe it's a problem on your end?
Oh, I see now, that is the subject of a message...........
Yeah, kind of like back when "NO CARRIER" coming across a modem might actually disconnect your comm program :-)
Heh. Handing out secret rituals, eh? Nothing beat Procomm when someone decided to use three plusses as their signature line on a BBS.
Does anyone know what the situation with "drill motor" #41 is? According to the Kingston website, TMNY owns it, but it's still stored on the NYCTA system. I think I've seen pictures of it sitting in Coney Island Yard, but I don't know how old those photos are. Does anyone know where it is now, and what plans are in place for it? And BTW, where does the term "drill motor" come from?
Frank Hicks
As of a few weeks ago it was still sitting out in front of the overhaul shop at Coney Island. I don't remember what track.
I might be wrong but I saw that puppy in CIY many many years ago when it still had this huge cable reel next to it that used to be part of it. #41 was an R1/9 (actually an R3) with a VERY unique property, the ability to run OFF the third rail onto unpowered track, mostly for shop moves and such. The big cable reel on it (already removed when I was on the property) was a huge "extension cord" for the third rail where they'd clip it to the third rail and then run it off onto unpowered track to do what was required for car moves and such. When it rolled back towards its "clip" the reel would pull the wire back in again under operator control. But think of it as an "off road" subway car. :)
#s41 and 42 were built in 1932 by Mangor car for the IND as R-3s.
BTW #41's number was changed to 20010 in 1962. It was changed back in 1966.
Yeah, one of the afternoons I was hanging around at CIY, one of the car equipment guys was telling me all about it and how it had been converted to a yard switcher and other various duties ... he also was laughing about how once they took the reel off it, it had sheet for adhesion. But is your recollection of it the same as mine, that weird cable reel thingy and the "extension bug" so it could go off electrified territory? That's what I remember being told about 41 ...
It's duly noted in the car drawings that 10,000 Lbs of ballast was added after the reel was removed. Sorry that I omitted that.
Don't be sorry ... I never knew that but the guy that I spent an afternoon with following around just LOVED telling the story to me. One of the downsides of split shifts on the WRONG end of the railroad is that I had about 6 hours to kill every day and you can only take in the water races at Coney Island so many times before you start spending your layover *ON* property between shifts.
I spent a *LOT* of time at CIY car shop watching the grinding of wheels (back when they actually came OFF the trucks to do so) along with the axles that got separated out for regrinding, motors over here for teardown, etc and numerous other radical foamy stuff. Heh. Seriosuly, I spent almost as much time SUPERVISING DCE as I did conducting and motoring. And BECAUSE of my love for the old girls, the guys at CIY would show me tricks they wouldn't BOTHER to tell RCI's. :)
BTW: I've forgotten nearly everything I learned 30 years ago (mitigating life realities, hope you understand. Heh) but when mention of "drill car" came up it was one of those "oh yeah! Frank Zappa! I remember HIM!" kinda things. I really got my yayas off though on so many of the stories, befriending crane operators up in the rafters who would throw me "wanna rip the roof off this R30?" and showing me HOW. You on the other hand still WORK for the bastards. I guess you feel responsible to actually KNOW this stuff, even today and sisplay the proper decorum and respect and all. For me, it was all a blur looking back from 30 years after my ... ummm ... "separation." Heh.
By the way, offer's still good for a visit up here in the green lands of summer if you're so inclined. I'm actually looking forward to knowing how stupid I've become over 30 years away from the TMO's. :)
I would love to be on hand at Shoreline when you actually feast your eyes on 1689.:-)
So would I! Eye contact isn't enough, fingers getting itchy, pants feeling a bit tight, uh-oh ... is that Sparky? Everybody hide! Heh.
Mmmmmmmmooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!
Nobody in this cab, Sir, except for us chikkens. Click ... errrr ... Cluck. :)
#s41 and 42 were built in 1932 by Mangor car for the IND as R-3s.
BTW #41's number was changed to 20010 in 1962. It was changed back in 1966.
The term "drill" refers to the railroaders' term for moving cars around on yard tracks or sidings to make up or break up trains. This term is also used for freight trains serving local industries; the Delaware, Lackwanna & Western, for instance, had a job called the Boonton Drill, which operated in northern New Jersey. Thus, the IND "drill" motor is simply an electric locomotive used to switch cars (think of a drill sergeant marching troops all around).
What exactly is this Drill car? Any pics?
Maybe the MTA should extend the C Train to 10-Cars, that means if they do that they may share the A Line R-44's with the C Line. They will probably extend the C Line when the R-160's come in.
-AcelaExpress2005
Or perhaps sooner, once Coney releases enough 32's for Jamaica and/or Pitkin.
With Todd's information about the silver line being delayed (and I agree that it's a stupid idea to begin with), it made me wonder about some other MBTA projects/problems.
So the question of the day is: What will happen first; The North Station Superstation is complete, or most of the Type 8s go into service? -Nick
Neither. H*ll will freeze over, and the polar ice caps will melt so that the Second Avenue Subway is flooded.
And the Red Sox will win the World Series.
And the Red Sox will win the World Series.
...against the Cubs!
-- David
Chicago, IL
"And the Red Sox will win the World Series."
H*ll will definitely freeze over if that happens...Go Yankees! :-)
-Nick
The Red Sox have the best record in baseball right now. So there's a good chance that might happen. I would much rather see them go to the World Series than those f**king Yankees. At least the Braves are back into their rightful first place, ahead of the Mets. I hate the Mets worse than the Yankees.
Rob, you were on the right track saying the right things, then you had to go and f#%^ up by blasting the Mets. Shame on you. Do you really want #4 Sea Beach Fred mad at you? I can't believe that's what you want.
I was heading home from work at about 4:30pm this afternoon. I entered the 6 Uptown station at Bleecker St., and while waiting for a 6 train to 14th street, an announcement came over the loud speakers saying that due to a "police investigation" at Spring Street, all trains between Brooklyn Bridge and 14th Street, would be running express. Well, I tried to get on back on the downtown side so I could take the F to 14th street and catch a 2 train home. Well, my MetroCard would no work since I had just used it. So, I either had to wait around for 15 minutes or walk to 14th street and catch the 5 train there. I decided to walk to 14th street. When I arrived at Union Square, the announcement was made that service on the Lex line was suspended completely. Well, I then decided to take the L to 6 Ave., and take the 2 Train at 7th Ave or the 3 train to 135th (then transfer to the 2). When I arrived at 7th Ave., I forgot that the uptown 3 train stops on the downtown track. When I realized this, I missed the 3 train that was leaving. I stood on the downtown track waiting for the next uptown 3 train. To my surprise a 5 train pulled up on the uptown express track!!!! So, immediately, my reaction was "I can catch the 5 train there instead". So of course, I went back to the uptown side to wait for the next 5 train. As luck would have it, another 3 train pulled in and yet again I missed it. I waited for about 8-10 minutes or so, and no 5 train came. So , I went back to the downtown side to wait for the next 3 train. My story does have a happy ending...the 3 train I was able to catch, was Bronx bound. So I was able to sit comfotably all the way to the Bronx :-) Does anyone know what happened at Spring Street to cause the suspension of the Lex Line for a good portion of afternoon rush hour????
Seems to be alot of these "P.O."'s going on, this is the 3rd post about this since Tuesday.
I guess with terror alerts heightened, we will have to bear with these investigations. It's better to be safe than sorry.
The power was probably turned off on the Lex as a precaution. On the IRT only, isn't the system for 3rd rail power different, whereas power to all tracks is shut off, there is no way to shut down just one track.
Maybe someone called 911 to report powder somewhere on the station.
Maybe it was a 12-9.
Maybe there was a robbery/mugging on the train.
Maybe some kids pulled the E/A box just inside the tunnel.
Unless someone was working there, we won't know.
And transit won't tell!
Maybe some kids pulled the E/A box just inside the tunnel.
I didn't think the goat problem in the subway was so bad.
Goat problem?
I'm talking about the emergency box which turns off the power when someone pulls the lever.
Does MTA always tell the truth regarding service changes? How did the 5 end up on the 3?
Whenever something happens on the IRT in Manhattan, either #2 trains are rerouted on the East Side or #5 trains rerouted on the West Side.
I'm not talking about G/O's and service changes. I'm talking about rerouts.
And it's great too because they meet up in the end and get back to their normal routes.
Sometimes, the #5 will run with the #2 until 238 even during middays (8:59 Utica, lays up at 10:13 if it still runs)
I ran into the co-worker while boarding the 4 train at Borough Hall. She said she was surprised the IRT trains were running because her niece called her to say that the Spring Street Station was closed for an police investigation. Something did happen at Spring St; for some reason "something exploded" is stuck on my brain. If that happened it maust have been something really small. When the 4 went past Spring St at 6:30pm everything looked fine.
Bomb scare
What cars were assaigned to the b devsion in 1990? Were any R10s left?
The R-10s were retired by the end of 1989. In 1990, the Subdivision "B" fleet consisted of:
R-27, R-30/30A, R-32/32A, R-38, R-40/40M, R-42, R-44, R-46, R-68, R-68A.
David
I have a few questions regarding the closure and status of the lower level platform on the A, C, and E lines.
1) What led to the closure?
2) What is its status? (will it be abandoned forever?)
3) Is there any possible event that will lead to the usage of the lower level again?
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
P.S. Recovery efforts have come to an end at Ground Zero. The ceremony was memorable and to mark it history, has ended precisely on the same day as the traditional Memorial Day today, (May 30.)
"It's a hard place to stay but a hard place to leave."
A final plan on the site must be confirmed by Dec. 1.
I think they used to use it for Aqueduct specials back in the 70's. It has similar style "modern" IND tiling like Van Sicklen, Euclid, etc on the Fulton line. (You can see them in the movie "Ghost". The station is used for several scenes in the movie. It is called "Franklin" in one scene, and plays itself, 42, in another. BTW, Myrtle on the JMZ is also in some scenes, and under the el at Bway.)
Anyway, I think I remember reading either here or at TOSOTT that the track has been taken out of service not so long ago, and the switch may be severed at one end.
The rush hour E expresses to Brooklyn also used the lower level in the late 1960s and early 70s, presumably to avoid merge problems with the A north of 42nd, which in turn could have backed up D trains north of Columbus Circle.
The rush hour E expresses to Brooklyn also used the lower level in the late 1960s and early 70s,
When did the E terminate entering into Brooklyn? Reasons?
When the Chrystie St. changes were made in 1967-68, the Fulton St. line in Brooklyn only had part-time express service, and the TA decided to keep the A as Brooklyn local full-time and run the E as the rush hour express mornings and evenings to Rockaway Park.
Interesting. With the same models (R32) too?
I remember the R-38s, the R-40s and the R-42s being the most common trains on the E (and F) during that period, though the R-6s would also pop up on occasion.
If I remember correctly the "E" to Rockaway was mostly R1-9's. I used to deliberately take the "E" instead of the "A" so I could ride the R1-9's on the great run S/O Howard Beach as I really hated the R-10's.
Heh. What was it that did it for you with the R10's? The harsh fluorescents or those useless little toy fans on the poles? Or was it the noise? :)
Although I don't want to offend the redbird fans on this board but I've never really been a fan of the post Low-V IRT cars. And I guess the R-10's reminded me too much of R-12's. I never really took the "A" too much back then and when I did I always thought of them as IRT cars on the IND. (Yeah I know the R-10's came first but that's how I thought as a kid)
I saw R-38s on the E during rush hours in the late 60s.
My first Fulton St. express run was on a rush hour prewar E in July of 1969. My mother and I were on our way back to Port Authority from an excursion to Far Rockaway on what had to be the fastest A ride I ever had. That train of R-10s took off like a rocket once we had cleared the bridge. Anyway, we had just left Howard Beach on our Manhattan-bound run when I saw an E pass us in the opposite direction. Right then and there I was determined to take an E back the rest of the way. That must have been the first E train of the PM rush hour. We got off at 88th St. and waited...and waited...and waited. One A train after another went by and my mother was getting worried. We had a bus to catch, etc., etc. Finally an E pulled in. It was worth the wait, as we roared along Fulton St. Don't remember the gear pitch, although I do remember overtaking a prewar A train at Kingston-Throop or Franklin Ave.
I remember using the underpass between the main platforms at 42nd St., and that lower level gave me the creeps. It was like stepping into a twilight zone.
When did the E terminate entering into Brooklyn? Reasons?
The E povided local or express service during rush hours on the Fulton St line from 10/24/1949 to 8/30/1976. There was no express service on the Fulton St line prior to that time.
Notwithstanding the fact that it was a full four-track system? I did not get to New York until 1980. I doubt your statement.
On a few disrupted occasions, I remember taking E-trains to 95th-Ft Hamilton -- obviously when there was a mess at QB Plaza. I also remember getting the Banker's Special, the diamond-M, now and again in the PM too.
Notwithstanding the fact that it was a full four-track system? I did not get to New York until 1980. I doubt your statement.
The fact that there were no express trains on Fulton until 1949? Euclid was only opened on 11/28/48, Broadway-ENY on 12/30/46, there was no capacity to terminate express trains feasibly.
Low ridership/insufficient demand could have played a role as well. Express service may not have been needed in the early years of the Fulton St. line.
Yes, but in those first twelve years, running express service was impractical. Only after Euclid opened could it be reasonably achieved.
Quite true. I wonder how they turned trains at Rockaway Ave. before Euclid Ave. opened.
Either with the switches at Utica Ave or trains were turned light at B'way-East N.Y.
At Rockaway Ave I believe at one time there were temporary platforms over the local tracks. I've always wondered why there were spaces between the columns in the station that matched the car doors.
Either with the switches at Utica Ave or trains were turned light at B'way-East N.Y.
When did Bway-ENY open? Did is open with Liberty, Shepherd, Van Siclen, etc open? If so how come the tiles are like the rest of the IND, and not like those stations and Euclid?
Sorry, there are some typos in the previous post, but I was typing fast and didn't notice it, but you know what I mean......
Bway-ENY was opened on 12/30/46. Euclid was opened on 11/28/48
I think B'way-ENY opened before Euclid. I'm quite sure the tunnel was dug out before the stations opened. That's why I say there is a station at 76 St.
Yes, the tunnel was dug out before WWII broke out. It wasn't until after the war ended that track and signals were installed.
So if the tunnel was dug out before the line went out there, isn't it safe to assume there is a station (Or a shell) at 76 Street?
So if the tunnel was dug out before the line went out there, isn't it safe to assume there is a station (Or a shell) at 76 Street?
A shell seems entirely probable to me, but I doubt if a station is actually there in any recognisable state. Furthermore, AFAIK there is no evidence of where access from the street should be. The most that can really be hoped for is space for two local platforms.
In the last 60 years since the line was first built, the neighborhood upstairs has been built up. More than likely the street stairways that were built were covered over and forgotten. Under a foot of soil and/or concrete in someone's front lawn or in front of a deli that is over there, there is a staircase from a mezzazine that goes nowhere.
The station itself is probably 2 side platforms, a roadbed from the bumper block to the end of the station, Maybe some tile on the walls.
But there is something over there. It wouldn't be on the board at Euclid tower if it wasn't built.
You also said that the Euclid tower refers to a Cross Bay Tower, which obviously does not exist.
If one thing on the Euclid board doesn't exist, why must it follow that something else MUST?
>> It wouldn't be on the board at Euclid tower if it wasn't built. <<
Are subways that different from highways? Are they that much more fastidious? The Staten Island Expressway eastbound had an exit sign for many years that read "Willowbrook Parkway/ Victory Blvd" until the button copy for the parkway was removed. It doesn't follow that the Willowbrook Parkway exists apart from a right of way that was never used. The original signs on Sunrise Highway for the CR 111 exit read "Manorville/ Westhampton Beach." CR 111 was never built south of Sunrise Highway. The signs were changed only a few years ago. I'm sure others can cite other examples.
The roads are not open. But the route for them are there. The land was surveyed, graded and plowed and everything else before they lay the tar down. But the tar wasn't layed down and the path for the road is still there.
It may be sort of a Utica Avenue shell. I would assume if there is something there, it would not be a full station such as the Roosevelt station which is even tiled.
There is no name tablet on the lower level, but there are "42"'s marked every few feet at its usual location below the tile color as that of other IND (?) stations such as Roosevelt Av. But the 42's are not with a special black tile. It is marked right on the wall.
For a picture, consult the "42nd St./ Port Authority" thread.
Does anyone know why there is a difference in the station wall design from the upper and the lower levels?
I don't think anyone knows for sure. It was assumed that for whatever reason it was left bare and the LL wasn't used until later. Then when they got around to it in the forties, they used the newer tiles they had.
I think this is a question of common sense, but if a station is to be multiple levels, do the construction workers start on both levels at the same time?
If it was needed and if money was not an object then sure it would be wise to do both at the same time. We really don't know for sure. A fellow Subtalker stated the time difference as the reason for the difference in the tiles and I would tend to agree. If you are talking about the whole station, walls, etc. then if it was planned then sure, build the whole thing. The lower level wasn't a later addition as far as I know.
From gut appearances, the station itself looks to be in good shape. Some sweeping and cleaning of the walls would mostly be able to restore it. (Please correct me if I'm mistaken) Now for the trackways I don't know if it can be restored, (quickly, anyway)
Isn't there a circuit to turn the lights off down there? If there's no activity, I see no reason why to waste electricity.
What was the purpose of this when they built the platform and did that purpose ever carry through?
What was the purpose of this when they built the platform and did that purpose ever carry through?
Supposely when Mayor Hylan was planning the original 8th Ave Subway, he purposely added a lower level at 42/8 to prevent the IRT Flushing line from expanding toward 11 Avenue.
Supposely when Mayor Hylan was planning the original 8th Ave Subway, he purposely added a lower level at 42/8 to prevent the IRT Flushing line from expanding toward 11 Avenue.
That's absurd. There must be a better purpose than that. Every platform built on what is now MTA property had at least some reasonable purpose either carried through or not. I wasn't around back then so you'll have to back me up on this "Mayor".
Hylan was very much anti-transit. It went back to when he was a T/O and almost ran over a boss on the line. Hylan was too busy reading a law book to be watching where he was going. When he became mayor his dislike of the "transit interests" went full bore. In 1918 after the Malbone Street Crash, instead of going after just the train operator, he went after the BRT.
Hylan's original plan for the IND was meant to be a system that would be superior to the IRT and the BRT/BMT. The IND Concourse line (for example) was meant to take people off the IRT Jerome Ave Line. The IND Church Avenue Line was meant to "recapture" and connect with the BMT Culver Line. The building of the BMT 14 St/Canarsie and the BMT Coney Island shops was purposely delayed by Hylan so that the BMT would go under and be then be taken over by NYC. If it wasn't for 1929 and WW2 the IND Second (and Third) Syatem would have been built. I saw the planned subway map on NY Times microfilm years ago when I was in college. The map looked nothing like the map we have now.
In short, Hylan realised the private companies were making money. But NYC was losing money and required to spend more.
Do you recall when the times printed that map. I'd love to see what "IND3" would have looked like. We already have text for "IND2".
The Second System map came out in 1929. About 3 weeks before the Stock Market crashed. It was on I think page 1 of the NY Times. The Third System was just an idea they had for about 20-25 years afterward. The idea was to have a subway no more than a 1/2 mile from anyone's home in NYC.
Perhaps someone can go to the library and have a copy made of the microfilm and then scan the copy.
If they look at the map, they'll see that there supposed to have been a station at 76 Street.
If they look at the map, they'll see that there supposed to have been a station at 76 Street.
There's that station at 76th again! This station is starting to fit into the whole Loch Ness, Bermuda Triangle, Bigfoot, Ghosts, UFO subjects. Some say it exists, some say it doesn't......maybe a topic for Unsolved Mysteries........
Seriously though, "where there's smoke there's fire" fits in this case. Maybe it does exists. But until someone comes up with a photo of it (not like the April 1st TOSOTT's thread photo), it will be similar to ghosts, etc.......maybe it's there, maybe its not....
I don't think the station was ever opened for customer service.
When the A line was opened in 1936 to Rockaway Ave, the tunnel kept on going. It went past B'way-ENY and went to Euclid Ave long before the line opened there in 1948. I should get the map scanned and put on this board. It doesn't say a station at 76 St. But it shows the route going toward Euclid. It shows the branch going to Lefferts. It also shows the curve as the line goes down Pitkin Ave and around the 3 cemeteries.
Probably the only proof I can offer is that on the board at Euclid tower there is in the lower right hand corner a piece of track where there is a station named "76 St". It is there as clear as day. You're welcome to go down there and see for yourself.
I believe it's on the board, and I wonder why they put it on there if there was no station there. It's a toss up wheather I think it's there or not. No one has truly proved it's there, but you can't really prove it's not there either. For example, we all know the Roosevelt station is there, and I've even seen photos of it. (it's fully tiled and all right down to the IND little "Roosevelts" on the wall. I've also seen pictures of the Utica shell. How come no one's ever come up with a photo of 76 if it's really there. But then again, it may be so well sealed as not to be able to get into it. But why?
My guess is 76 St was built long before the A line was extended and opened at Euclid Ave. One line was supposed to have gone down Pitkin Ave under Aqueduct Race Track or the parking lot there and along Brinkerhoff Ave to South Jamaica. There was also what seems to have been a turn off where the line would go to the Rockaways. The ramp appears to have been in that woody area and baseball diamonds along side the current A libe from the Race Track Platform to North Conduit. I've always wondered why there were never any houses built over there? The other line coming out of Euclid Ave went up a ramp to 80 St and over to Lefferts Blvd. But no connection was planned there for a line to the Rockaways. With what happened with the Stock Market crash in 1929 and later with WW2, the routes had to be changed. NYC/BOT chose to use the shorter route to Lefferts for their A line. And they used the area around Liberty Heights (Rockaway Blvd) to connect their Rockaway Line to the LIRR ROW. One of the other cut backs also made was the connection of the LIRR Rockaway line with the IND Queens Blvd local at 63 Drive.
I can't provide a picture of the 76 St station. The pic used in that article was a phony. But there was a line that was partly built over there. I have a 1967 TA phone book that mentions an EA box at the portal to the PROPOSED 76 St station. The Board at Euclid tower says there is something down there called 76 Street.
I really must scan and post the Second Syetem Map map I have for 1929. and the page from the 1967 TA phone book. and a picture of that part of the board. But I don't want to be paying the rent for my local kinko's.
on the board at Euclid tower there is in the lower right hand corner a piece of track where there is a station named "76 St".
Does the "track" finish there on the board, or does it continue beyond 76th St?
It shows that the tracks continue. Unknown as to what station would have been next. But the next tower would have been "Cross Bay".
Unknown as to what station would have been next.
Is 76th St then the only marked station east of Euclid on that board or have the others been obscured?
76 Street is the only station seen on the board. Probably there were other's planned. But that would have been on the board at the next tower. Which is said to be Cross Bay. Wherever that would be.
Which is said to be Cross Bay. Wherever that would be.
Wouldn't that be at Cross Bay Blvd? Why else would that name be used?
Probably. Maybe there would be a station at Pitkin and Cross Bay also. But I don't know.
It would have followed pitkin past Cross Bay Blvd, and then past Aquaduect to would follow Linden Blvd to the Nassau County Lion.
Elias
I don't think it would have gone to the Nassau County Line. But would have gone along Linden Blvd or Brinkerhoff/109 Aves. Maybe to Springfield Blvd.
My map says 229th Street.
Your map dosen't say anything. You have to read it. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That's one of the great urban legends. Our resident meteorologist, Todd Glickman, has used some of his fancy portable equipment to measure depth in the various stations and has concluded that the 7 train would pass underneath the lower level of 42nd Street with no problem whatsoever.
As to its usage, access to it has largely been sealed off - stairways cemented over, etc. - and remember, it's only one platform, southbound. What the real reason for its construction was may never be known, but suffice it to say that there's no real reason for it today.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I seems to me that the platform was built to help minimize a possible bottleneck at 42nd street when the "E" train merged with the "A" (if used as an express) or the "AA" (when used as a local; now called the "C").
Perhaps they also felt that by keeping the "E" at another level, people would be discouraged from changing trains. After all, to change trains at 50th Street, you need to take the stairs up to another level. Same with 42nd Street if the lower level is used. And at 34th Street, the locals and expresses stop at separate platforms. If you changed at 14th Street or West 4th, the only station you'd be skipping would be Spring Street.
Not a good idea, IMO. If the E ran express and used the lower level at 42nd, there'd be no way to reach 23rd from Queens without climbing a flight somewhere.
If the E ran express and used the lower level at 42nd, there'd be no way to reach 23rd from Queens without climbing a flight somewhere.
So there's a level BELOW 34 St. as well? Please fill me in on this if necessary.
The lower level platform leads into the downtown tracks, merging just before the three-platform 34th St. station. I think David was saying such service from 42nd would most likely merge with the express track, and therefore, to get to 23rd St., you'd have to climb stairs either at 42nd or 34th.
Also, due to the platform set-up at 34th, you can't cross-platform transfer, you have to go down one stairway and up another. The first cross-platform transfer possible is at 14th St.-Eighth Ave.
No lower level at 34/8 on the A line.
No, but there are separate express and local platforms. If the E used 42nd lower and ran express, one would need to transfer to the C somewhere to get to 23rd -- at 50th the C is one flight up, at 42nd the C is one flight up, and at 34th it's one flight down followed by one flight up.
So there's a level BELOW 34 St. as well?
No, just a very silly platform layout:
Platform-Track-Track-Platform-Track-Track-Platform
Apparently, the IND didn't want anyone switching from local to express or vice versa there because it's busy enough anyway, being at Penn Station.
You're right. Just tear it down and have the Flushing line extended to whatever it's needed, especially when NYC is being considered as one of the cities being nominated to hold the 2012 Olympics.
If bloomburg wants to cut recycling to save money. Where will the city have the money for the olympics? Do I hear the "temporary" property tax increase for the 1964? Worlds Fair? So why has been permenent? Look at the fiscal crisis that the Worlds Fair began. The subways will become a wreck again (5mph red tag zones) if the city decides to blow their budget for the next 15 years on the olympics?
Hmm, then how do you explain most of everyone pushing for it here? You make it sound like it's a bad idea! I understand the financial crisis we are in, though that's no reason to at least consider it! It would certainly boost NYC's morale!
And their property tax. Massive property tax increse means more moving to suberbubsl; more people move, more property tax due to less residents; even higher taxes, more leave. Vicious cycle, if you want to see NYC 20 years after olympics go to Bridgeport, CT. Bridgeport is THE ghetto. Ancient street (frieght) railroad tracks serving empty football field size lots.
All of the recent US Olympic games have been profitable.
In addition, the capital expenditures will pay off if done right.
Because of the World's Fair in 1964, the Van Wyck was extended from Kew Gardens to Northern Blvd and the Whitestone Parkway became an expressway. In addition, the facility had two new stadiums (Shea Stadium, Singer Bowl) and a couple of other buildings that remain and have function.
Unfortunately, the WF lost money because it was a World's Fair (most lose money) and because stuck-up Moses didn't like Coney Island style amusements to bring people in. It also was never internationally approved.
Finally, just because the city declined after the World's Fair, doesn't mean that was the cause. This is what we call false precedent. For example, if the city had decided to employ a bear patrol, and there were no bears, does that mean that the bear patrol is actually working?
Anon-e,
That is indeed what my measurements showed, within the tollerance of my measuring device. The difficulty in being sure is that 42nd street itself changes elevation between 7th and 8th avenue.
On the other side of the argument, our good friend Peter Dougherty (author of "Tracks of..."), has made contact within NYCTA, and found evidence that there indeed may be some conflict.
So while I personally doubt the conspiracy theory, we may well have to wait until the 7 is extended west to see if the lower level of 42/8 is impacted by construction.
I've noticed that the trackbed of the lower level is of a different form than the regular floor. As best as I remember from the photo of this site, it's more of like two strips of land that hold up the rails and between the rails there is hollow ground further below.
Was the construction here differnet than the rest of the subway also?
Not sure as to why it closed but at the very south end of the station is a GIANT steel beam across the trackway and the platform along with some other steel beams that looks like a brace holding up the upper level. Part of the wall has been removed also at this point. Was there any danger of a collapse? As long as those beams are there, no train will ever go through. They look rather permanent. The station is still lit and is used as a contractors storeroom. Where there used to be an underpass is now walled off and is a tool/supply room. The gates of the old fare area are still there. The escalators are not. One very interesting find through the dust. Near the platform edge for the entire length of the platform are these diamond shaped tiles set into the concrete at about two foot intervals. Unique to the system?
LIRR style?
How does the "contractor" get down there? I thought the stairs were sealed off.
All but one.
All but one.
Which end of the platform is this open staircase? Is it accessible to passengers or is it hidden?
Also, what contractor does their business down there?
Which end of the platform is this open staircase? Is it accessible to passengers or is it hidden?
It is behind a closed and locked door at the downtown end of the platform.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are TWO entrances to the lower level 42nd st./8th ave. platform from the S/B platform. One is under a stairway, I THINK it is the 2nd stairway from the north. The second one is a trap door.
Peace,
ANDEE
One is under a stairway, I THINK it is the 2nd stairway from the north. The second one is a trap door.
What do you mean by "under a stairway"? Are the staircases readily accessible by normal passengers, or are the staircases at the extreme ends where passengers are not so common? Where does the trap door lead to?
No, it is closed door under the stairway and is not accessible to regular riders, you need a key. Trap door is an opening in the middle of the the platform, that is opened as needed.
Peace,
ANDEE
Forgot about the trap door.
What are the purpose of balconies on certain NJT platforms? They are usually found on diesel-operated lines, and it looks like someone decided to build a hi-level platform, but just ends within 10 feet (or less) as a ramp to the low level platform.
Are they ever used today?
If I understand correctly what you are talking about, they are "high blocks" which permit wheelchair access to the trains at low platform stations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The official name is " Mini- High Platform" and theyh are used to meet ADA requirements. If necessary (from NJT's rules book) the train will make two stops at that station.
Ther reason for the mini-high platorm is to enable ADA access at historic stations without changing the looks of a historic station. For modern stations such as Asbury Park, Elberon, Aberdeen Matawan, etc. full high platfgorms are used.
Thanks for the information.
But how do engineers know that there is a person on those platforms? Or do they not require a certain stopping distance so the engineer doesn't first have to know?
If a wheelchair or any person with difficulties climbing the steps is on the mini-high platform when the train pulls in, the engineer will know that he has to make a double-stop. The rear-brake or conductor will spot the train.
If a passenger is on the trainand needs to exit via the mini-high platform, the conductor will inform the Engineer to make a double-stop.
Red Bank has the only unique mini-high platform which requires the crew to lower the platform to board and raise it back before departure.
I promised I would put this on SubTalk as soon as I got it for Fred, anyone else can see it, too. For those of you on the Redbird trip, this car passed through Dyckman Street moments before the excursion train picked us up there to go to Times Square. Hope you all like it!
My other pictures from this trip will be online by the end of June. My free time is very limited for the next two weeks.
Ah yes, 1969. I remember it well. Good year indeed. I think I may have ridden on that car once as part of a 3 train.
It was on the 3 prior to 9/11, note the blue yard stickers for Livonia. All Livonia cars now run on the 1.
What, you kept your promise and I tip my cap to you.
I just wanted to know what cars ran on which line around 1989 or 1990. I was to young to really pay attention to that back then.
For the A division you had
R26/28/29/33ML/33WF/36ML/36WF red birds and silverbird R-62
For The B division
R27/30/30A/32/32A/38/40S/40M/42/44/46/68/68A
Hope that answers your question
Adam
That's kind of difficult period because there were a lot of transfers, and retires of car classes so I will break it down for each year.
1989:
A Division
"1" - R62A
"2" - R26/R28/R29
"3" - R62A
"4" - R62, R33
"5" - R33 (mostly unrebuilt, but painted red)
"6" - R29, R62A
"7" - WFR33, WF & Main R36
"9" - R62A
"S" - R62
B Division
"A" - R32 (10 GE Rebuilt cars only)R38, R44
"B" - R40
"C" - R10, R27, R30 (Rebuilt 8250-8350),R30 (Unrebuilt redbirds 8412- 8569), R32 (only about 16 MK rebuilds 38 & 3900s)
R38 (provided exclusive weekend "C" service only
during beginning of 1989
"D" - R68, R68A
"E" - R46
"F" - R46
"G" - R32
"H" - SAME AS "A"
"J" - R30A, R40M/R42-(Mostly unrebuilt)
"L" - Same as above
"M" - Same as above
"N" - R32 (Unrebuilt only), R68
"Q" - R32, R42 (Both unrebuilt only), R68
"R" - R32 (Rebuilt), R46
"S" - R32 (Unrebuilt only)
1990:
A Division remained virtually unchanged.
B Division (listing only routes that changed equipment)
"C" - R30 (Unrebuilts-retired 12/90), R30 (Rebuilds), R30A
(arrived 12/90), R32 (16 MK Rebuilds)
"D" - R68 (2500s only), R68A
"E" - R32 (Arrived around the end of 1990), R46
"F" - R32 (Arrived around the end of 1990), R46
"G" - R32, R46
"N" - R32, R68
"Q" - R68
I hope this helps you. If I missed anything, please advise.
what trauins were run on the IRT division pre- retirement of the R12s
R-12, R-14, R-15, R-17, R-21, R-22, R-33/R-33S, R-36
David
i meant, where did each individual car class run
Well, on the IRT, the WF R-36s were on the 7 except for a few strays on the mainlines. On the other routes you could find anything in any train. The R-21s and R-22s were for the most part on the West Side lines; I remember seeing them there a lot.
Yes, I remember that thw west side generally had the full sized had straps and the east side had more cars with the little hand straps monuted on that bar.
But yes they were all mixed up.
Elias
The IRT mixed the models up. But they did seperate GE and Westinghouse on lines 1 to 6. Lines 1/3/6 had Westinghouse and lines 2/4/5 were GE.
which cars were GE and which were WH?
I have a question regarding the Q line come Sept.8.02.
How will they manage turning both Q and diamond Q at Brighton Beach?
Also will there be a shuttle train from Brighton to Stillwell?
The shuttle would run from Brighton to West 8th St, if memory serves correctly.
As for the two Qs, it might be too much to turn them both at Brighton Beach, so I'd imagine Diamond Qs turning at Kings Hwy for the trip north.
Personally, I'd run the Q to Ocean Parkway via the two express tracks since a crossover exists there, but that's just my opinion....
-Stef
But they already turn both of them at 57th!
True, but at 57th St, they operate on the same track. At Brighton, you'd have to merge the locals and expresses back together. I was thinking it might be inconvenient to do that, but that's just my opinion...
-Stef
A shuttle train was discussed internally and ultimately rejected because it would interfere with put-ins and layups (I believe only one track will be available). A shuttle BUS will run between Brighton Beach and Stillwell Avenue along the southern tip of an extended B68 route.
A plan has been developed to minimize interference between local and express trains turning at Brighton Beach. As "Pigs" pointed out elsewhere in this thread, both services turn at 57th Street -- it can be done at Brighton Beach.
David
Will the B68 operate via Surf Avenue or Poseidon Avenue? Running along Poseidon has the advantage of replacing the F station there and proving service where none now exists. The B36 already serves Surf west of W5.
Poseidon Avenue? What be that?
In any case, it will run via Brighton Beach Avenue into W. Brighton Avenue as it now does, then W. 5th Street, Neptune Avenue, and Stillwell Avenue to terminate on Stillwell Avenue at Surf Avenue (possibly in the Mermaid Avenue Loop after construction is finished). Turnaround (at least during construction in the Mermaid Avenue Loop) is via Stillwell Avenue, Surf Avenue, W. 17th Street, Neptune Avenue, W. 5th Street, W. Brighton Avenue, and then the existing route to Bartel Pritchard Square.
David
What will the route of the F shuttle be? Is there even a need for an F-shuttle since the B68 and Q-shuttle will serve the Poseidon Avenue station.
I have the routing in the office and will look at it during the week if I remember to look. As for "Poseidon" Avenue, the name of the station and the street is NEPTUNE Avenue. Calling the station by any other name on this board serves only to confuse people needlessly.
David
As for "Poseidon" Avenue, the name of the station and the street is NEPTUNE Avenue. Calling the station by any other name on this board serves only to confuse people needlessly.
No confusion what-so-ever! Poseidon and Neptune are different names of the same Classical god.
The station name signs say Neptune Avenue.
The street signs say Neptune Avenue.
The maps say Neptune Avenue.
End of discussion.
David
Tne *Neptune* Adventure?
Really?
The station name signs say Neptune Avenue.
The street signs say Neptune Avenue.
The maps say Neptune Avenue.
Depends if the map's in Greek or not. You must remember that Greeks and Greek Americans are very particular about their lingo.
I can't believe I'm still addressing this garbage.
THE G-DDAMNED MAP'S IN ENGLISH!!!!!
David
I can't believe I'm still addressing this garbage.
Oh, so you are anti-Greek then, David? I'm surprised... I thought people were tolerant these days.
[Oh, so you are anti-Greek then, David?]
No, he's not anti-Greek. He (and I, and a few other SubTalkers) are merely ANTI-WRONG.
At some point in the development of the Coney Island area, that street was assigned the name "Neptune Avenue," not "Poseidon Avenue." (As for why, I neither know nor care.) When the Culver Line was built, the station serving that street was called "Neptune Avenue" to reflect the street's name.
For both the station and street in question, the name "Neptune" is CORRECT and the name "Poseidon" is WRONG.
There, I said it.
(As for whether Neptune and Poseidon were really "the same" deity or merely counterparts for one another, some reading might be in order. I recommend one of my college texts, "Classical Mythology" by Morford & Lenardon.)
"Neptune" is CORRECT and the name "Poseidon" is WRONG.
Definitely just translations of eachother if it's named after the planet, if after the god then probably the same.
(As for whether Neptune and Poseidon were really "the same" deity or merely counterparts for one another, some reading might be in order. I recommend one of my college texts, "Classical Mythology" by Morford & Lenardon.)
I suggest you read "European Paganism", published by Routledge. The distinction between "the same" and "counterparts" is a fallacy. The Romans of course, seeing the worship of Poseidon, identified him with Neptune. Later on they identified Mercury with St Michael the Archangel when the became Christian. The treatment of Poseidon being Greek for Neptune, or Sulis being Brythonic for Minerva, or even Mithras being Persian for Sol was widely accepted in antiquity and is widely accepted today. The fact that Sulis may actually be an aspect of Brigit rather than a form of Minerva is not what matters. The perception was one of identity. I just wish everyone had kept such a tolerant Pagan outlook rather than messy monotheisms, but that is indeed my personal opinion. However, I digress...
When the Culver Line was built, the station serving that street was called "Neptune Avenue" to reflect the street's name.
It was? I thought the station was called Van Sicklen until a few years ago.
It was "Neptune-Van Sicklen." There is currently no Van Sicklen Street/Avenue/etc. in the area of the station, hence the name change.
David
Last time I was out there, I found more Italian-Americans than Greek-American.
The Greek-Americans are around Astoria. Rename some street out in Astoria after Poseiden. Let's stick with Neptune Ave. as it has been called for the last century.
Posiedon Avenue is what an Ancient Greek citizen would call Neptune Avenue if he/she were in Rome.
NO. A Greek Citizen would call it Poseidon Avenue, but not while in Rome.
Don't the Greeks refer to the planets by their Greek names even today?
Hermes
Aphrodite
Ge
Ares
Zeus
Cronus
Uranous
Poseidon
Hades
When in Rome, do what the Romans do.
Thanks for the clarification.
-Stef
Is there enough time to clean the cars with only one track for the local and one track for the express? I thought that was the reason there's less platform sharing at Stillwell than at other places.
If so, why hasn't the N been borrowing one track on the W platform at Stillwell ever since the N's home platform was closed in November? The N and W share a platform at Ditmars; why not at Stillwell?
There is one cleaning crew per platform at Brighton Beach.
And that's enough for the diamond-Q now, but as of September, the circle-Q will be terminating at the same point. Will two cleaning crews suffice for twice as many trains?
You need one cleaning crew on the northbound side (tracks 2 & 4) and one cleaning crew on the southbound side (tracks 1 & 3).
That's exactly how many cleaning crews as there are now. Will they be able to take care of twice as many trains as they do now?
Car Equipment is aware of the situation and will adjust its crew assignments to address it. The schedules will also allow for enough layover at Brighton Beach for the trains to be cleaned. I was at a meeting where this issue was discussed.
David
They'll definately pull the extra Q Express off the line that usually sits at Brighton Beach in order to have the local in there at the same time. That is even if they DO go with this plan.
Because at astoria, the N and W arrive from the same set of tracks. At Stillwell, they would have to deal with multiple home signals on time in both directions. Not worth the grief factor.
Between July and January (except for the temporary September-October arrangement), afternoon N's and W's arrived at Ditmars from different tracks (although I agree that the movements at Stillwell are more complex).
It seems to me that holding lights at Bay 50th and 86th would have kept to a minimum the unpleasant experience of waiting at the creek.
I guess I didn't speak clearly. The Ns and Ws arriving at Astoria during that time came from the local and express tracks of the same set of tracks. The Ditmars Dispatcher can see both approaching tracks on the model board.
Ns and Ws arriving at Stillwell each arrive on 1 Track of two different sets of tracks. The Stillwell N Dispatcher could only see arriving N trains; the Stillwell W Dispatcher can't see a damned thing, since he has no model board at all (and now the N board is gone). This would leave everything in the hands of Stillwell Tower, conveniently well removed from everybody involved.
As for holding lights at Bay 50 and 86 St, they already exist. However, I've found that at these particular stations, I have gotten less complaints while sitting by the creek than while sitting in the stations.
Just found out from official sources:
Neptune on the F will close in September as will the rear (bus lanes) booth at Stillwell till 2004 or 2005.
As far as Rector, South Ferry, COrtlandt IRT they ar e not expecxtred to open by the end of this year accoding to the same document which was in plain site in the pick room.
Corltandt BMT as welll as the booth at WTC on the E at the WTC entrance will roepen but no date as of yesterday.
BTW so in July (when the new pick starts) I'll be at 191 on the 1 overnight.(Wednesday and Thursday off).
Thanks for the info. 191 St on the the 1!?! Should be interesting.
-Stef
Stef: You were nowhere to be found on the fan trips and I missed the chance for you to tell me of the wonders of the Bronx. I did eat lunch in a nice restaurant owned by a Greek couple. The food was very good, and the sun was out for much of the time. Well, maybe next time we'll get a chance to swap stories.
Perhaps next time...
-Stef
Just found out from official sources:
Neptune on the F will close in September as will the rear (bus lanes) booth at Stillwell till 2004 or 2005.
As far as Rector, South Ferry, COrtlandt IRT they ar e not expecxtred to open by the end of this year accoding to the same document which was in plain site in the pick room.
Corltandt BMT as welll as the booth at WTC on the E at the WTC entrance will roepen but no date as of yesterday.
BTW sometime in July (when the new pick starts) I'll be at 191 on the 1 overnight.(Wednesday and Thursday off).
> How will they manage turning both Q and diamond Q at Brighton Beach?
It won't be easy but if they installed a set of crossovers south of Brighton Beach connecting the layup tracks, they could turn express-Q's on the crossover north of the station and locals south. But as of right now, everything would need to use the center "express" tracks at Brighton Beach by crossing over at the switches north of the station. Won't be easy that's for sure. Or they could run locals to Ocean Parkway and wrong rail back along the express to the crossover south of Brighton Beach but the locals and expresses would still be using the same track at B.B.
Trains can enter into pre determined tracks. The locals generally leave for Manhattan 2 minutes before an express. Expresses generally enter Brighton Beach 2 minutes before a Local arrives. If trains from Manhattan are on time, the locals can make a switch to the northbound express while the Q Express remains on it's southbound express track. So when trains depart, the local doesn't need as much time to cross an additional switch. But the trains entering must be on time. Timing is everything.
Here's what I see as the best way to turn Q trains at Brighton Beach.
Circle Q- come down on the local track, staying on Local track to Brighton Beach. Then continue to Ocean Parkway and turn around behind Ocean Parkway, coming back wrong-railing on the Coney-Island bound express tracks (This would allow at least Q circle service to Ocean Parkway). Then, switch to the Manhattan-Bound express track just before Brighton Beach. After Brighton Beach, return to local track to continue trip. It would probably make most sense for trains to take breaks at either side of the Ocean Parkway platform, depending on which one works better based on where trains are.
Diamond Q- pull straight into Coney Island bound express track at Brighton Beach, then turn around switching to the Manhattan bound express track north of the station (northbound circle and diamond Qs will have to be timed as they both will need to cross northbound express track at one point. The layup track on the Coney-Island bound side of Brighton Beach can be used to temporarily put trains if there is a backlog and the one track is not enough.
This Q solution, while not ideal, will allow both circle and diamond Q trains the ability to turn in a way that is no more difficult than what they do at 57th street. If necessary, a Q diamond can be sent to Ocean Parkway or a Q circle terminated at Brighton Beach if there is a backlog somewhere, so some flexibility would help this to work.
As for the F, turning trains at Avenue X seems to be more difficult. It looks to me that trains will only be able to stop at Avenue U one way, and that it would probably work best to terminate half of the F trains at Kings Highway.
On second thought, my plan would be better flipped. That is:
Q circle- CI bound local track, switch to CI bound express track. Switch to Manhattan Bound express stop just past Brighton stop. Wrong rail to Ocean Parkway. Turn behind Ocean Parkway. Return via Manhattan Bound local and continue northward via Brighton local to 57th.
Q diamond. Switch to Manhattan Bound express track just before Brighton. Pull out from there.
This allows a shuttle from Brighton to West 8th, if desired, on CI bound local track.
This is better than what I previously suggested for two reasons.
1. All Manhattan Bound service on Manhattan Bound side at Brighton Beach and Ocean Parkway. This reduces confusion and gives riders a choice between the Q and the diamond Q. Furhter, service to West 8th and Ocean Parkway would both be available on Coney Island bound side at Brighton Beach.
2. Q and Q diamond have to share tracks entering, rather than leaving Brighton beach, making delays turning trains on tight spaces a little less tight.
3. This plan can work because a diamond Q can be placed on the layover track on the Manhattan Bound side allowing another diamond Q to turn in from of it if necessary. Same goes for circle Q, which can back up further towards West 8th to allow another train to cross in front of it. In situations of imbalance, Q diamonds can always be sent to Ocean Parkway and Q circles terminated at Brighton Beach to make turning easier.
My same comments on the F in the last post hold true. As I said, I only see it possible for trains to stop at Avenue U one way and it would probably make sense to turn half of all F trains at Kings Highway.
Or even better!!! EVERYTHING goes in on the southbound express at Brighton Beach and everything turns after using either track for either train and then sending them out to Brighton Beach on the northbound express. And a single track shuttle on perhaps the 2 local tracks.
Forget about Ocean Pky and the wrong-railing. When the diamond Q is running, switch the it to the NB express track north of Brighton Beach. Switch the circle Q to the SB express track. NB express passengers would board as expected. The NB local passengers would just have to get used to using the SB platform when the express is running. I doubt there would be too many NB local passengers getting on there anyway when the diamond is running. When the diamond isn't running, either do the same switch to the SB express or cut it across to the NB express.
Actually, express passengers are already used to boarding on either platform and relying on a mix of annunciators and guesswork. Expresses pull in on either track from the north and then just pull back out to the north -- there is no relay.
F trains will relay on the Yard leads south of Ave X. Train will arrive SB at Ave X, discharge, move onto either yard lead, but MUST come back out on B6 Track in order to make stop at Ave X NB.
Look for the diamond Q to be cut back to Kings Highway.
It's been done ... wonder if the switch machines still work? :)
Probably not, as there is at least one Q job that makes both local and express trips (much like jobs on the 7 line).
I guess they could run both to BB, dedicating one track to one service, like at 57th St, but this is asking for trouble.
i was just wondering something, maybe Motormen or Motormen experts can help me out. for AK signals meaning authorized key by without permission, all u have to do is proceed at very slow speed and trip arm goes down right? what about K signals? once u get permission, do u still need a lever or key? or do u do the same for AKs?
Just to clarify, "AK" meant "Automatic Keying" which meant that if you approached, stopped and then closed the "gap" the signal SHOULD drop the tripper and let you key past a red whereas a "K" meant that you had to call the tower and request that it be dropped to get past a red. In other words, you could get by an AK yourself but a K required clearance by the tower who would drop the tripper for you. My understanding is that you are NOT allowed to pass a red under any circumstances today without specific permission to do so and thus NOBODY keys by today.
There are some places where keying by is required.
One is on the SB Nassau "express" track approaching Canal. There are a few more on the tracks immediately east and west of the usual NB and SB IRT tracks between 137th and 145th, in the yard. Although none of these are encountered in normal service, they've all been used in recent months in revenue service for GO's.
I'll never forget the work being done in 137 yard. Call on R over R at 145 s/b, CRAWLS up to signal, gives the yellow thing a push or two, arm goes down. goes into layup track, aproaches 1 light signal, 1-2mph, arm goes down. Fun experience!
I've ridden on five of the tracks between 137th and 145th: the two tracks normally used, the two used for the aforementioned GO, and the middle track (to bypass a misbehaving train stopped at 145th).
Yeah, wasn't quite sure of today's rules ... back in 1970, AK's were fair game. You stopped at the red, then gave it a one-point "kick" until you crossed the block gap whereupon the tripper would normally drop. You'd then do 5 MPH or so up to the next signal and repeat the process if it too was an AK. But circle-K's were normally only on absolute blockage wrong railing or other circumstances where you could only proceed across it with a red ball ONLY with permission from command. The AK's were pretty much "use your head and don't be stupid." My understanding is that rear-enders since my days have changed those rules on AK's and you're not allowed to key by now without permission at all. I haven't operated for 30 years though so your mileage (and disciplinaries) may vary, void where prohibited by TSS. (and I don't mean Times Square Stores) :)
> then gave it a one-point "kick"
How exactly does is this "kick" done?
- Lyle Goldman
You'd pull one point, hold it for a few seconds and then let it go. Just enough power to get the train to roll slowly. When you passed a red, you wanted to be certain (since many of the AK's I remember were on curves) that you wouldn't rear-end a train ahead of you. So you'd take it slow since you needed to be able to stop in half your view if need be and trains can leap out from any direction at ya. :)
> You'd pull one point, hold it for a few seconds and then let it go.
I still don't know what that means. How exactly do you "pull one point"? What exactly do you hold and let go?
- Lyle Goldman
The motor controller ... each notch is called a "point" so what it means is you move the controller from "off" to "series" or "switching" position for a couple of seconds, then return it to "off" ... this causes the train to roll VERY slowly. Sorry for the confusion. :)
AK signals are still "fair game". Just come down to Stillwell (before September) and watch the F and Q key through the AKs in the station. Your description is indeed still correct - stop before the IJ, "kick" the train so it rolls slowly to bridge the IJ, stop and verify that the stop arm has gone down and retained, then continue the move. What you will usually witness is what David G described - approach very slowly, roll through the IJ and take power when the stop arm goes down.
Yep - I still remember redball alley down the elevated on the Brighton - at the time though I was running from Brighton and that was the layup trip for me. Interesting though, thought I had heard that keying by was no longer permitted at all and that's why I was saying most of what I had been. Back in my day, you just did it and wondered when you'd literally catch up to your leader. :)
With a few exceptions like Stillwell and weird GO's there is no keying without permission on revenue tracks.
Of course the TA does testing by jacking up signals and waiting for the next moron to do it on their own.
I'm sure I would have seen some bulletins between then and yon if I was still with the railroad. But it wasn't unusual on 6th Avenue to try to "tighten up the conga line" into 59th by keying by a few in rush hours just to get what was behind you to a platform. But heaven help you if you did anything stupid. Amazingly, nobody did back then. Apparently the standards slipped a bit over the years.
But if the radio worked, you were supposed to ASK before you did it although certain spots you were just expected to do so, like the bottom of the ramp leaving 7th Avenue as an example. There was room for a D to sit behind a B on the curve so they could clear 57th st interlock and get another B in behind you. The straightaways were easy but it surprised me that AK's were allowed on a blind curve. Just had to be VERY careful and VERY slow. By the time you got around, you were already cleared.
"like the bottom of the ramp leaving 7th Avenue as an example. There was room for a D to sit behind a B on the curve so they could clear 57th st interlock and get another B in behind you. "
Nowadays, they just stretch the line out longer. On my 0858 B out of 34 St, I usually get stopped by ared auto. north of Rock Ctr, then at 7 Ave and once more behind the homeball at the top of the ramp.
You mean you're actually allowed to key by at Coney Island Terminal during revenue runs? Why?
- Lyle Goldman
So that you won't have to stop halfway in the station to call for permission (and have the chance of the conductor opening the doors too early). They're there in the first place to protect the switches past the station (but they could do this just was well by having them on time).
Just for ome history on te matter: Originally the Circle K plate was BMT only...thee required pushing a button on the side of the signal to get the stop arm down. On the IRT All signals had to e keyed manually so there was no designation..you'd go to the box at trackside and key the arm down. On the IND all automatics [not home signals] were automatic keyby; the reason for the circle-K was that some BMT signals also had the AK feature. When the IRT started getting newer signallig in the early 50's the ones that were AK were so marked. The unmarked ones still needed to be..for real..keyed down. When I worked the IRT in the 70's the AK plates were removed and at one point the manual=keyby signals had a circle-k plate added. This was not originally an IRT marking. Anyone remember blind trippers? What a rotten setup...not bad on straight track but some places they snuck up on you...a tripper with no signal. Guess it took experience and attention to stay out of trouble. BTW as you no doubt know you didn't need permission to key by until IIRC the arly 70's.
There's a newly installed blind trip at Queens Plaza now. We're evolving backwards, I guess.
Yep ... I heard the change wasn't all that long after I had left. And I don't remember any blinds personally on my own run but I knew they were out there. Nowadays, they've gotten REALLY nasty - they have a block of wood up against the cock now, taped in place. Your cock better have a woodie when you get to the terminal or you get charged. Gotta love it. I'll bet you're as glad as I am not to be on the railroad there these days. :)
"Your cock better have a woodie when you get to the terminal or you get charged. Gotta love it."
So you gotta check it out before you go out. Be sure the guy a head of you didn't loose it.
Elias
Or carry a "spare" just in case. It's a shame what's happened to the railroad over the past 30 years. Once upon a time, they used to TRUST us. If you went BIE and got on the horn and said you'd hit a paint can on the tracks, they believed you. If you stopped 6 inches past a ball because you had slow brakes, they believed you. And if you said you were too tired to do another run, they believed you.
But ya gotta love the sentence those words made just the same. :)
Just say it was pidgeion!
And where did I hear that?
They do trust us - but now you had better be able to supply the proof. therefore, always travel with a paint can, milk crate or trash bag.
With all theregulations constantly being added and things getting tighter on either form of RR [common carrier or transit] no I can't say I miss it. To cover another reply I find it strange that they'd put blind trippers in AGAIN.You and Elias sue making this place X-rated. Gess if you came to a terminal without the woodie on a TRIPcock one could have almost rear-ended another [train]...wait a minute..behave Edward.
Heh. We haven't even gotten back on to angles or humping yet. Don't behave, Edward ... the geese LOVE this kinda stuff. :)
Interesting, if I remember the redbird trip this past weekend. Coming down Track 5(?) from the IRT 4 line into Concourse the first signal on the ramp was an AK signal with IRT tripper. The next signal had two trippers (IRT side and BMT/IND side) which the TSS had to call the Concourse tower to clear it.
This is also the point the crew went on the ground to change the tripers over on the north and south motors (memory fails me, they might have done that after we cleared the double tripper).
Sure hope somebody left them a tip. :)
We dumped in the yahd. CI Peter, keeper of snowblocks.
Do you remember the types of AKs?
I assume that you're looking for me to remember "call-on" from the old layup days? All I vaguely remember was automatic, manual and call-on. Could have been more but I've stuffed the old meat-rom with other things since. :)
No, there is more than one AK and they mean different things. Nevermind the little grey cells get to sleep in on the weekend. I am sort of surprised with all the 'experts' around no one else mentioned it.
Well by golly, you've nailed me there ... dunno. Hope you're not playing the "a$$ki$$ing" card. :)
No, I am just VERY surprised. Maybe I am on too many killfiles. There is a RED AK and a Black AK. The Red AK is for reverse rail.
Ya know? Musta been just the timing of when I worked there, but I *never* did a wrong rail move on revenue rail (split rush hours only pick) and was always home for GO's. I do remember the circle-K's for reverse moves but they were not automatics. You had to get down and stomp those or insert a plunger key to operate them. Did some of those in school car since they were out on the eastern division. but never did any.
Reverse moves back in my days were usually with a "bathroom key" (track warrant or baton) and they'd lock down the trippers for a reverse move as a result of a GO back then. Never worked any though.
The ones you go to the roadbed and stomp are called 'No Key By'
OB1 No Key By
Life used to be OH so much simpler. :)
Back then when you called for horses, Trigger showed up?
Heh. Yeah, "trigger" showed up at EVERY stop. Then we slapped the bottle caps to close up. Sheesh ... some TRADESMAN you are, bro! :)
Next time I manage to get down sooth to da chitty, we gotta hook up. I'll charge the beast while you go grab a smoke. Yeah, that's the ticket. Wonder who'll turn our arses in first? Flashing lunar means "wrap it and drop the reverser, ramming SPEED!"
Tom is applying for a job as a signalman for the local railroad and is
told to meet the inspector at the signal box.
The inspector decides to give Tom a pop quiz, asking: "What would you do
if you realized that two trains were heading towards each other on the
same track?"
Tom says: "I would switch one train to another track."
"What if the lever broke?" asks the inspector.
"Then I'd run down to the tracks and use the manual lever down there",
answers Tom.
"What if that had been struck by lightning?" challenges the inspector.
"Then," Tom continued, "I'd run back up here and use the phone to call
the next signal box."
"What if the phone was busy?"
"In that case," Tom argued, "I'd run to the street level and use the
public phone near the station".
"What if that had been vandalized?"
"Oh well," said Tom, "in that case I would run into town and get my
Uncle Leo".
This puzzled the inspector, so he asked, "Why would you do that?"
"Because he's never seen a train wreck."
Jeez, I heard this one 30 years ago except it was on a bus.
(AK) happens very often. All singles in the middle of the platform are labeled (AK). Some charge rediculiously fast up to it and slow down to a crawl to pass it.
If I remember the signal guide correctly, a (K) signal is manual key-by. You still need to call control, but you then need to operate the automatic key-by button. These are in little yellow flip cover boxes about 5-10 feet in front of the signal at vab height.
So it's like on a Home signal?
- Lyle Goldman
I would GUESS that he means "call-ons" ... you do NOT key by ANY homeball, ever ... that's firing squad kinda stuff. :)
A home signal has a manual key by button to drive the stop after the restricting aspect has been displayed.
That'd have to be new construction on the TA but then again, been 30 years since I've operated there. You stopped and stayed at a homeball until it cleared, along with the tripper dropping along with the main or diverge clearance. You mean to tell me that keying by a homeball, much less anywhere without calling in is PERMITTED on NYCTA? That'd seriously be news if it's true, especially on a homeball. That was NEVER permitted in my day.
It is only used in conjunction w/ a R/R/Y restricting aspect that must be requested from the signalman.
Actually the TOWER would GIVE you that lower yellow as a "call on" and you would take it after pushing. Those are usually seen in yards though. But call-ons are a bit different from keying by.
Only 3 ways past it Clear, Call on or authorized people hook it down.
That's pretty much what I had expected ... up until the early 1970's you had to TRY to raise command on the radio (fat chance in most spots) and ask for clearance to keyby (usually granted) or you'd wait for 60-90 seconds and if it didn't clear and you didn't raise command, you could walk past ONE automatic at insanely slow speed expecting to rear end your leader.
I guess a few too many motormen shot craps and the practice was ended. But you NEVER tried to shoot a homeball - they didn't key by unless you had a call-on and even then you were told to stop and stay unless waved ahead with a flashlight after the trip was "spiked" ...
But who am I to argue after 30 years off the railroad with people who seem to have answers I'm not sure of? But it didn't sound right to me even after all these years.
> You mean to tell me that keying by a homeball, much less anywhere without calling in
> is PERMITTED on NYCTA?
Keying by is not permitted in the Subway in revenue service, except sometimes under certain extremely rare unusual situations with permission from the Tower Operator. This is even more true about Call-ons past Home signals, which is what I was referring to. I was asking if operating a manual Key-by on a regular signal is analogous to operating a Call-on on a Home signal. I know that both are not legal without Tower clearance.
- Lyle Goldman
On current procedure, I'm dumb as a box of bowling balls. You could do a pass of an AUTOMATIC KEYBY on a wayside AUTOMATIC signal back in the old days. This practice was stopped and restricted after I left the system. But under NO circumstances were you allowed to manually key by or do a call-on without talking to somebody or carrying explicit track warrant to do so - an example, call-on on a layup track which was occupied. Only the first train in got a free signal, call-on followed for subsequent trains on a layup track.
Although they were out there, never did a "manual keyby" that wasn't a call-on button so I don't know that deal. That was mostly the A division that had those pesky things though I did spot one on the Canarsie line (didn't work that one either).
Yes, it is analogous, and the levers look exactly the same. In fact, some of the home signals around Bergen St. were converted to circle K's (since they had the lever.)
The circle K's on the lower level of the 179th St. relay tracks can be activated without permission, as can any other signal be keyed without permission on yard leads and spur or relay tracks. You just have to remember they are there. (These were put in after someone hit the wall in the back).
AK is Authorized key by, meaning one that is allowed without permission on the mainline. There are some on spur tracks, (which then are redundant). All the tracks at Stillwell have AK's (and this is annoying after a long F trip, behind schedule, and they are slow. sometimes they do clear the, or put them on time, and on the W they are usually on time)
Those are AK's at Stillwell? I thought they were all timers. Do most stub terminals have AK's or timers?
Most have timers, and the ones at Stillwell can also be timers, but the ones on the F and I think Q platforms are usually kept at red. (W is usually if not almost always on time).
The W is always on time, since both tracks end in bumping blocks.
The F is almost always Red, forcing you to stop and key-by the signals, since overrunning the homeballs at the end of the station on 6 Track could set you up for a collision with a departing W.
The Q seems to use the AK feature whenever there is a train in motion on the switches creek-side of the station.
Anytime a Call-On is displayed, a T/O can accept it and move with RESTRICTED SPEED and EXTREME CAUTION expecting to find the track ahead occupied, a broken rail, etc. The Call-On aspect can only be displayed by the tower controlling the interlocking; therefore if it is displayed, permission is implicit in its being there.
As for automatic signals, there are anumber of ways:
If it has an AK plate, you may key-by this signal without permission from anyone.
If it is in a yard, yard lead or storage track you may key-by without permission.
If either a Signal Maintainer or RTO Supervisor flags you past, you may proceed.
If Control Center gives you permission, you may key a Red Automatic. If it is a featureless automatic, stop 15' prior to signal; bridge the IJ with first wheelset; watch the stop arm go down and retain; then proceed.
If it has a red circled K plate - stop 15' before signal; (IRT ONLY - secure train, go to roadbed, step on stop arm until it retains) BMT/IND -operate lever or button until stop arm retains, then proceed.
If it has a NO KEY BY plate - stop before signal; put first wheel over IJ; secure train; go to raodbed; step on stop arm until it retains; then proceed.
Wait, on the IRT, are you sure you don't have to bridge
the IJ before stepping on the arm?
What about the key release (little round box located near
the tripper)? Is that not used by RTO?
Unless it got changed since I went through School Car, I stand by post.
(little round box located near the tripper) - You mean down at track level. No one has ever mentioned it, so I would go with, RTO doesn't use it (or at least Road Crews don't).
These must be wired to retain the arm on the back contact of
the track relay in approach to the signal, as opposed to the
section in advance of the signal, which is the case with all
other types of signal. I guess Dave B. will find out soon enough.
> I would GUESS that he means "call-ons" ...
That's exactly what I was referring to.
- Lyle Goldman
I am Ak.
AK = AUTHORIZED key by! Call-On = operate the lever making sure the stop arm goes down and STAYS down. No permission needed. Circle K = bridge IJ climb down step on stop arm making sure it retains. On all procede with restricted speed and extreme caution.
Wonder when the term moved from "Automatic" (meaning that the IJ's were there and you DIDN'T have to jump up and down instead of finding the keyhole) and "Authorized" ... they were called "Automatic" when I was in school car ... then again, they had pretty much finished replacing the old keyboxes throughout the system - this was after they had redone the 4th avenue trackage from end to end ... that was all keychain prior to the rebuild.