If you're here you either read about it somewhere or discovered the links on the Status page. I tried to reopen the place with as little fanfare as possible.
So, what's changed?
Not much. In the end I decided that none of the various options, even in combination, were very appealing. The survey confirmed that.
In terms of the invite-only question, the only change I made was that all handle applications get processed by me. No more automatic approvals. I also cleaned up the database of users. Anyone who hadn't posted 25 times since 1/1/2002 got purged. I'm sure this affects some infrequent but regular users, so just reapply for a password. I'll also be keeping track now of how often a user posts and when they last posted so that the users database can be kept clean on a regular basis. (No reason to have 2,000 accounts in a database of only 400 regular users.)
I decided to go with Amazon Honor System to try and recoup some of the site's costs. I figure most people are familiar and comfortable with shopping on Amazon. Amazon will accept donations between $1 and $50 at a time charged to your credit card. You can even "unpay" a donation if you feel you're not getting your money's worth, without having to dispute the charge on your credit card. They take 15% off the top for the service but it's better than nothing. I don't want to deal with checks in the mail. For now, the banner ad asking for support will -only- appear on the "Talk" screens since that's the part of the site with the most overhead and demand on resources.
Don't forget you can also "donate" to the site by shopping on Amazon starting at the Bibliography at http://www.nycsubway.org/biblio/
This isn't limited to just subway items, either.
Speaking of costs: costs doubled for next year. nycsubway.org uses up a T-1 of bandwidth at peak times, the equivalent of around a 768k line averaged over a week. I doubt many of you have priced that kind of bandwidth but even at well under market rates it still costs several thousand dollars a year to host the site, and that's not counting any hardware replacement cost. (In fact, one of my two servers died during the hiatus and got swapped out. It's now in my home office hosting the archives.)
You can even make donations anonymously, or choose to send me a notice with your name. Even if you choose not to donate please keep in mind that when you are getting something for nothing you can at least be civilized toward each other.
You can even see, on the donations page, how much has been raised. If the donations actually do come in at a level that will cover the costs of the site, remaining donations will be re-donated to a transit or trolley museum of my choice in the name of the site.
Also, I changed the URL's slightly to make cgi management easier on me but that shouldn't affect you; you might have lost your cookie since February, anyway. But if not, unless you were purged (see above) your passwords will still be valid.
And finally, why was the hiatus so long? Well it just came at a bad time. You all know this isn't my full time job. I also bought a new condo and moved into it. This took a lot of time between December and April-- negotiations, lawyers, settlement, home improvements, and moving-- and then, no broadband Internet access (How you miss it!). I needed a vacation from site updates. As you've probably noticed some of the backlog of updates have been made in the past couple of weeks. So when the complaints and threats came around (someone complained to me anonymously about a post and threatened to report the poster, the site, and me to the FBI for supporting possible terrorist activity), that was it-- I had no time to deal with everything at once and the site lost out.
And finally, I've talked to Harry Beck privately since the hiatus began but I
wanted to thank him for his hospitality since then, and I hope his
board remains as an alternative for those of you put off by the
hiatus. :-)
So. Welcome back.
Dave
p.s. Lets not start a whole thread on this. We really don't need a
big thread about how glad you are that the talks are back, or how
angry you are at me, or how much of an a** you think I was. I read it
all on the other boards and it doesn't need to be said again. Lets
just get back to business.
Welcome back. Simply that!
Chuck
Test Message.
First off I'd like to say welcome back Bus/SubTalk! You've been surely missed.
Secondly, I have to thank Harry Beck for giving some of us transit talkers a temporary home on his Other Side of the Tracks site while this board was on hiatus.
Thirdly I thank Dave Pirmann for giving us another chance.
Finally-let's get back to what we know best-Bus and SubTalk.
Welcome back boards!!!
#1979 X17
R62A #1979
Do I exist?
I think not....
Rene Decartes
Finally...the Kev HAS COME BACK to Subtalk
Well, Rock's off making movies, so I stole his line.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's nice to be back.
Harry's place is nice, but, like Dorothy said, "There's no place like home".
Everybody, behave here like you do at Harry's Place, and all will be fine.
dave can i send you a donation with a postal money order ???
it would be eiser than a credit card for me .....
Well, I'd prefer not to deal with that sort of thing (checks, money orders, basically the same thing). Just trying to avoid frequent trips to the bank...
Well, how about cash? That's how I do business, much to the chagrin of my wife who implores me not to send cash but use checks and money orders.
make sure you send it so nobody can see it thru the envelope ...
thats what i am going to do next month or so.......
..lol ..!!
Where can I swipe my MetroCard? LOL
Good to have to back Dave.
That's a good idea. Little USB-port Metrocard readers that I make you swipe each time you log on. :-)
If we log onto SubTalk, can we then log onto BusTalk within 2 hours and 18 minutes for free?
(Me, I think I'll take the 30-day unlimited.)
In the words of those three Goofy Guards:
Yippee!!
Yappee!!!
Yahooey!!!!!!
NOW . . . NOW
Let's not start scrolling text...the next thing you know HEYPAUL will be back.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry. It's just that scrolling text cracks me up. I will keep it to a minimum.
Glad to see you back!
-- Ed Sachs
Dave: Can I E-Mail you at either pirmann@panix.com or pirmann@quuxuum@hotmail.com? Please let me know. Thanks.
> pirmann@panix.com or
Yes
> pirmann@quuxuum@hotmail.com
That's not even valid syntax for an email address. I don't have a hot mail login.
-Dave
Wow ... you really CAN go home again. Nice to be back. The welcome mat is out. The couch is still comfy. And the room is clean!
Ahhhh ....
--Mark
VERY nice to be back! Me likes the ol' surroundings, akin to Fred and his Triplexs or Selkirk with his pre war IND units.
Thanks for having us Dave!
Al
....
I know you said you didn't want this, but thanks for bringing the talks back! Without this place I'd have nowhere to talk about this kind of stuff... I'm not outgoing enough to integrate myself into other boards.
Dave, Thanks for having us back. We missed you.
Let the education & enjoyment continue ....
Mr rt :-)
Now now, let's not go hitting yourself for doing something that was justified. You did what you had to do, and I accept that. Heck, you run this place, man. Think about it! No matter what, everything is fine and good, and I will certainly try to make some contributions in the near future (That is, once I've recouped my costs from my latest Hong Kong trip...But that's another story.)
-J!
Thanks...
Well it only took two days for the first thread about donuts to show up. And it wasn't even thread drift, this was a whole topic all to itself. Come on people... I realize you guys all enjoy friendly conversations with each other but I'm not sure anyone cares whether you prefer KK or DD donuts.
Nice to have yo back.
I did this on another thread, but thank you Dave, for bringing back Subtalk. We'll try not to clutter the board with tangents on fast food, movies, TV shows and religion.
WON'T we??
This is a number five train to 241st and Wakefield. Pleeese Do Not Lean On Doors Thankyouverrrrrymuch. CI Peter
Donation sent...I dunno if I was the first, but the total showed $0.00 when I started.
Let's hope others follow....
Thanks to those who have donated. Unfortunately the total $ counters on the donations page will not show donations UNTIL the 30 day window for "unpaying" has past. So in 30 days the counters will start to increase.
Hey,
Nice to see SubTalk back in action. I understand your reasons for shutting it down and they were pretty valid. Hopefully users on SubTalk (and BusTalk) can discuss and exchange ideas respectfully.
Its great to be back here. I hope that "Low Life Jack-Ass Jerk" (the moron who is responsible for subtalk hiatus) doesn't show up again and ruin the party.
Gosh, I go away on vacation for a week and when I return Subtalk is back! Now I don't feel so bad about the money I lost in Atlantic City!
>>Gosh, I go away on vacation for a week and when I return Subtalk is back!<<
Bob, That's funny, I also was on vacation this week. I found out from Hot Lunch! that SubTalk was back.
Dave P, Welcome back, let's hope we behave this time.
Harry Beck, Thanks for sheltering us boardless posters in the months that have passed.
Glad to be back,
Bill "Newkirk"
Just testing. Welcome back.
Welll...tis good to be right back where I belong and where it all started. And on a day that saw a topsy-turvy BMT - imagine Slants on the Circle "Q" masquerading as the "W", and a one-lunger on the "L", with all the remaining Slants and all the new equipment sound asleep in Canarsie Yard; a rip-roaring thru "J" express, all the way from Eastern Parkway, OOPS- Broadway Junction now - it was Beautifully Messy Transit, everybody (myself included) was totally confused, and we all had a real good time.
wayne
Good to see you back Wayne.
Simon
Swindon UK
I didn't find out until yesterday that SubTalk had been reinstated, else I'd have come back sooner. I am very relieved to see this valuable forum back in business.
wayne
Haven't heard from you in a while at Harry's Place; glad to have you back. BTW, I will be in the city from Saturday, October 12 until Friday the 18th. More on this offline.
There are R-40's on the Q-via-West-End this weekend? This I've got to see.
This was one: (south motor first)
4401-4400, 4415-4414, 4396-4397, 4290-4291 and 4228-4229.
and this one: (north motor first)
4254-4255, 4190-4191, 4214-4215, 4279-4278, 4325-4324
and THIS one:
4256-4257, 4204-4205, 4330-4331, 4320-4321, 4276-4277
and even:
4194-4195, 4176-4177, 4292-4293, 4270-4271, 4285-4284
wayne
Yes, I saw, I saw! (I didn't write down numbers, though.) Unfortunately, I was hoping to ride one from 14th to Stillwell, but they were all going north. Eventually I gave up and got on the third R-68 trainset. Since it was getting quite late and riding the West End on an R-68 is no thrill, I crossed over at 9th Avenue and caught an R-40 set back into Manhattan.
Yep, nothing beats a Slant. We were "lookin' out my back door" aboard #4229 all the way from Canal Broadway to Coney Island. It's kind of fun seeing where you came from. Got a look at the turnout leading to Chambers Street (with track still in place but no switch) too.
BTW #4320 had its white-letter-on-gold "N" showing between cars.
wayne
Does anybody know if there were R-40's on the Q last Saturday, when this same GO was in effect?
I hope this becomes a fixture of this recurring GO. One of these weeks I'll make it down to Stillwell and get a picture of an R-40 train signed with circle-Q's on the W platform.
Did anyone make it out to the Brighton Q shuttle? What equipment was it running, the usual R-68's or something more extravagant? (Where were the R-68A's, anyway? I don't think I saw any on the Q or on the N, and they're usually out in force on the N on weekends. They must have been on the Brighton shuttle.)
Did any trains run express on 4th Avenue? Did any trains use the DeKalb bypass? Railfan windows have been hard to come by on the DeKalb bypass since 1997, when the B and Q swapped equipment.
They could easily install a switch at that spot and have a one-way Nassau Loop if an emergency reroute were ever necessary.
Welcome back SubTalk!! Let's hope no "terrorist" type posts shut this board down again!! Welcome back once again!!
Thanks for bringing the talks back. They were missed by myself and by many others as well.
Good to have Subtalk back. I learned a lot about the NYC Subway and other rail services here from many of the other posters on this board. I hope that continues. Good to see Subtalk back. Thanks, Dave!
Yes, it still works!
Glad it s back, missed you guys
Well.. I'm so glad it's back up
It is good to be back,. I for one will try to stick to discussions of our beloved subway.
Ditto...Welcome back.
Peace,
ANDEE
hey!! i'm home again!
thanks dave and glad we are back
"discussions of our beloved subway"
How about out of town systems like Dayton Ohio? The have a great web site. (LOL!)
Dave,
I'm as happy that everyone else is here like me. Glad that everyone else, or just a few of them is here. It is cozy only to have a few, and not a major crew here like before Subtalk went down.
Delighted to see Subtalk back again.
Let's hope we can all keep it under control this time.
The first of the fleet of R32's have gone over 2 million miles in service - I'm sure the remainder will follow. Here's hoping they all get to see THREE million miles of service ...
By comparrison, the R-68s are approaching 900,000 miles per car after 16 years of service. That's about 52.5 K-miles per year per car. Now, on the otherhand, the R-32s at about 1.9 million miles per car after 38 years is 50 K-Miles per year per car. Sounds like my R-68s are being worked to death.
I'd agree ... I think you ought to write them up for a promotion and a raise to a new pay grade. Where do I sign? :)
Seriously, rode some of your cars and some of the other 68's from Coney. Yours were smooth (aside from that ground loop noise on the PA on the CPW stretch) whereas the Coney cars had this AWFUL journal bearing screech from the trucks. Drove HeyPaul, Bingbong and I NERTZ on the northbound on the Brighton that evening.
See? Some thing never change. Heh.
"Drove HeyPaul, Bingbong"
I knew the Coney Island cars were good for something.
Heh. Just be glad I didn't bring my greasegun along for the ride. NEXT TIME I WILL. :)
What awful screeching noise? It must've been that one car because that horrible screeching which is normal for a redbird, is rare on 68s I see everyday.
Might have been. I don't do much subway the last 30 years. I could tell from the noise (and it was LOUD) that it was a bad roller bearing on one of the wheels, front truck, lead car. I'm told that there are a few cars that suffer that problem. Not many, but enough of them.
Maybe, but at least they're well-cared for and have been right from the start. If they continue to receive proper maintenance, they may last for 5 million miles.
Actually, when they came on the property, it was at the height of "we won't wash it, we won't grease it, there by the grace of God goes that carbody" ... the only advantage that they had at the time was that they were NEW and well built. They didn't need maintenance and didn't get any. They might not have required the GOH when they did if they had gotten their TLC up front ...
Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the R-68s. You're right about the R-32s - they arrived when deferred maintenance was in full swing. Even they weren't immune to the ravages of neglect. Now the Triplexes OTOH would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance.
Does anyone know What series of cars logged the most miles in their career?
(I remember a Daily News Article in the late 1970s titled "A Day in the Life of Car 8967" ... it would be interesting to see how much has (or hasn't) changed since that article ran .....)
--Mark
As Nixon used to say, "I'm glad you asked that question."
I'd have to say it would be a tossup between the Gibbs Hi-Vs and BMT standards. It's a good bet both of those car classes logged well over 2 million miles per car, perhaps even 3 million.
>>>Sounds like my R-68s are being worked to death. <<<
Yep, good cars, ride 'em daily. Now if only you could get rid of some of their unfortunate noises.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's about 52.5 K-miles per year per car. Now, on theo therhand, the R-32s at about 1.9 million miles per car after 38 years is 50 K-Miles per year per car. Sounds like my R-68s are being worked to death
Could one of the reasons for the R-68's extra per annum mileage be the link bars? They used to run shorter trains of R-32's during off-peak hours. :-)
No, Stephen, I don't think so. The mileage was accumulated over 16 years. The link bars on the R-68s is a relatively new addition. They were installed less than 3 years ago. The R-68s ran 13 years as single cars.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, Kevin. The R32s are my favorite equipment in the B Division.
May they be around to see another 2,000,000 miles! :)
Yeah, I'm willing to adopt them since the R1/9's are no longer on the property and I did work a few 32's in my days as well. The cab though reminded me way too much of redbirds so my heart is not quite in them like the R9's ... still, well built toys and time continues to prove that. Though I got my schoolcar on everything from the R1/9's to Q cars to the 44's, I really didn't like the newer cars at all and there was no way I was going to get any Qcar duty since they were already out of revenue service by the time I posted.
I just wish that the GOH hadn't ruined the original character of the cars. That GOH turned them into mutants. Air conditioning, cyclops destination signs on the bulkheads, no blue doors. Foo. :)
My feelings exactly.
>>>...cyclops destination signs on the bulkheads, no blue doors. Foo. :) <<<
...and DON'T FORGET, no green lights on the side route signs.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh yeah ... forgot about that. The green tubes were still in most of them when I left the city. I always liked the P1 phosphors ... pity GE stopped making them. But of all the accoutrements, it's the destination signs on the bulkheads that I miss the most. Don't remember if they took out the marker lights - was so disappointed by the cyclops eye up top, didn't notice if the markers are still there or not. I was on the lookout for "new tech" and of course the 68's which weren't on the property when I left either. Hell, the 62's were fresh meat to me. :)
>>>Don't remember if they took out the marker lights...<<<
Yea, they're gone too...
Peace,
ANDEE
Geez ... then they're NOT 32's anymore. When the whites or greens were rotated, the markers were brighter than the headlights on those things. No wonder I didn't notice ...
No backlit side signs, period. That goes for the Redbirds, too. And the R-38s.
This is true. And remember when the destination signs lit up for the north and south terminals lit up? I was thinking about that while on my R32 train today. I'd love to see that come back.
See Kev, now you got me all nostalgic again! ;)
Heh. I looked at them as interlopers, killing off my mighty arnines. But I got to like them. Did a number of runs on them when I was a conductor and had a ball with the PA back in the days when most conductors had "stage fright" and made no announcements at all. For me, it was an opportunity to do my morning radio show for the geese. (Gee, I guess that's why I spent more time on arnines)
But yeah, I remember when they had BRIGHT markers, lights on the end signs and working heaters in the cab. I musta done maybe 6 runs in 32's as a motorman but I preferred the arnines and would willingly fall back a train or three when crews sneered at having to run an AMUE. And everybody was more than willing to let me have my rail adventures. It's strange thinking of 32's as geezers. Heh.
I like that, Kev! A "morning radio show" over the PA!
Unfortunately, nowadays the TA frowns upon us being creative when it comes to announcements. They'd rather you make the same canned announcements over and over again. It gets rather mundane after awhile.
This is New York! People have to get up and go to work whether they want to or not. Why not put a smile on their faces during their commute? Make it a pleasant experience?
I know of one conductor who always makes his trips on the A line a rather enjoyable experience. He has his own set of passengers that look forward to riding his train every morning. If he books sick or is otherwise absent from work, they want to know where he is and if he's alright. They know him by first name and look forward to the "experience" (as he calls it) every morning Monday through Friday.
I wish I could have heard you over the PA back then. I'm sure you'd have had me splitting my sides! :)
Heh. Unfortunately some management types rode my train (I think that's why I got put back in the rain) and didn't like my "Next stop Bedford Park - catch the Bronx handshake with the CC which will be pulling out as soon as I open the doors" and things like that. At 34th, I'd announce the transfer to the Broadway BMT with a reassurance that the train you were on is faster and will get to DeKalb TODAY and things like that. Closing up, I'd tell folks on the platform "there's another train that looks JUST like this train that'll be along in a few minutes, step lively or lose it" ... I'd also do time and temperature, a bit of a forecast and an occasional good joke I'd heard the night before.
Management was NOT amused. :)
Comparing the current Q schedule to the pre-flip D/Q schedule, the running time from 34th to DeKalb varies between the two routes (via express and bridge) by no more than a minute.
Well ... I'm talking summer/autumn 1970 when the D flew and the QB had all sorts of slow orders through the bad tracks downtown. Back in the heyday of "if the train didn't careen into a wall, we don't need to repair that track section" ... the BMT was a *mess* back then. It was more like 8 minutes or so if both trains left 34th at the same time. There was also something about the south side of the bridge that screwed some things up on the BMT as well. I worked the D though and the Q was the "QB" at the time.
Oh yeah ... the QB was mostly R27/30's at the time also. :)
Yup... That is what I rode on when I was living in Brooklyn.
Had that awful MTA Silver/Blue scheme.
I remember when the 27/30s were new, and the cat's meow!
Heh. Some of them were still red or that old blackish green. What was funny was folks would walk up to me on the R9's and ask me why the IRT was running on the Brighton line. Lots of folks never noticed the difference between four doors on a car and three and were convinced they were redbirds. :)
These are the kind of conductors I'd like to see (hear) more of, but too bad the TA isn't fond of these types.
Yeah, there was a time not all that long ago when FUN wasn't a crime. :)
Just think of what they would have thought if you had added a "Neener-neener" or two.:-)
Nah, I was doing my DJ bit ... now if they had turntables in the cab, that woulda been something. :)
Heck, I can still see those green backlit "57th St." signs on that very first train of shiny new R-32s I rode on back in July of 1965. Of course, seeing "Coney Island" backlit in green on the return trip was even better. I even remember seeing backlit side signs on the R-1/9s.
Let me open the first thread on rail (thanks, Dave!).
I'm in Portland, OR now and have just ridden MAX, their light rail service. Very nice. I was in SFO yesterday, and not much new to report there, except that all the "toys" were out on Market Street (PCCs, Milan cars, historic SFO trolleys, etc.)
I had a quick trip to Paris and London, and rode Eurostar between the two cities. I submitted some images to Dave which I'm sure he'll post at some point when he's caught up with the backlog.
A few days ago at Seashore, we took out the R-7A/R-4 "A train" of 1440/800. It needs some TLC on the brake package, so any interested folks are invited to come up this summer and help.
Heh Todd, *still* popping into emergency when you make a service reduction? :)
Is there a subtalk day at Seashore planned this year? I still don't have a job and will have the time :) :(
Todd,
Bill P. is supposed to come down to Branford to pick up some
ahhhh nine pahhhts. He & I may be collaborating on UE-5 overhauls.
Well I got news, hopefully with in 2 weeks I will be presenting my Second Avenue Subway plan to Cooper Union College. This is for 2 reasons, to show Cooper Union that although I am a HS student that I am a harder worker with dreams to build a great city, and 2 to see if they can help me contact people necessary to get it out to the people.
Wish me luck everyone!
By the way...WOO HOO SUBTALK IS BACK!
Christopher, I'm a professor at Cooper Union. What exactly
is this about? You can contact me by email if you wish.
Professor Hakner?!........
Good luck, man! I'm so surprised; it would be a miracle if the MTA considered your plan!
Good luck. And it's great to be back.
Welcome back!
Good to have this message board back!
It good to be back again & i feel like i just got out of prison after 80 days.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Dave
Thanks for bring back this board. I have another city to add to your photo section.
Phil Hom
Great! Can't wait to see... :)
-Dave
Just to let u know dave I'll happily e-mail u my TGV pics
this am 8141 to 8144 were testing with 8145-8148.
8109-8112 are in service as of 3 weeks ago with 8113-8116.
Yes. I rode that set this morning on the L.
8109-8112 and 8113-8116 are in service, what about 8101-8108?
We only have 2 trains of 143's on the L?
I counted 4 trains when I went, excluding those two. I think 8128 and family are in service as well..(I've no idea what the family is, I'm pretty sure I was on 8128).
8128 is part of the 8125-818 series. The last time it was on the road, it was with 8129-32.
nice cars
8101-8108 are in service. The reason for the post is that prior to this time,. 8109-8112 and 8113-8117 were not in service.
Dave:
I know you requested that we not start a huge thread about how great it is to have SubTalk back, so I'll make this short and sweet: Thanks for bringing the Talks back up, and thanks for hosting this site to begin with. Not only has it taught me more than I ever wanted to know about transit systems, but has also introduced me to a community of great friends.
Also, thanks to Harry for hosting an interim forum, and I hope to be a regular contributor to both forums. (That said, for some reason SubTalk just feels like "home" to me.)
Okay, enough of that. On to business... I'd like to help SubTalk get re-started with a fun thread.
I'm pretty active with a couple other active forums on the web, including a UK-based Christian satire website, Ship of Fools. On the discussion board "Hell", there's a thread titled Tube Stations from Hell, which is basically a thread in which people rant about their least-favorite stations on the London Underground. (Paddington, Waterloo, Camden Town, Edgware Road, Bank and Charing Cross are the front runners.)
One of the posters, however, made an interesting observation:
"King's Cross does have one redeeming feature: a mobius junction. To get to Euston, you can either go north on the Northern Line or... south on the Victoria Line. Put it another way, you can go north on the Northern Line from Kings Cross to Euston, then north on the Victoria Line from Euston to Kings Cross, and repeat ad infinitum. Why anyone would want to do this, I cannot think."
Can anybody else think of another mobius junction on any other system, or any other similarly odd quirks? I recall a "NYC Subway Trivia" thread some time back that had a list of some strange routings on the NYC Subway, but I haven't had a chance to search the archives for it. And with all the route changes since then, it's probably outdated anyway.
Have fun!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Conrail had a block station "Hell" on the Lyons Falls Secondary Track. This branch was sold to the Mohawk Adirondack & Northern RR about 1990. Look on an old CR Albany Div. timetable, it is there.
While it may not be a true Mobius situation, pre-Chrystie, one could start at Brighton Beach, go south to Stillwell, switch to the Sea Beach tracks, thru 4th Av, Montague, Nassau Loop, Manhattan Bridge, and back down the Brighton.
Another interesting situation, again, pre-1967, and probably not a Mobius situation, could occur during rush hours. A D and E could pull into Jay St on parallel tracks across a platform; later in the run, at 7 Av/53 St, the same two trains pull in on anti-parallel tracks across a platform!
Here's a thought that has occurred on this board:
- It would be nice if the G train went to Manhattan.
- So, install a connection between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Jay St so that the G can connect into the Rutgers tunnel. Basically, the G becomes a Brooklyn extension of the V.
- Now where does the G/V terminate? How about Continental Ave.?
This gives you the possibility of a G train from Continental to Court Sq to Hoyt-Schermerhorn to Rutgers Tunnel to 6th Ave to E 53rd St to Continental. So then, when you see a G at Continental or Queens Plaza heading westbound, the question becomes, which G is this, the one that gets to Manhattan sooner, or the one that gets there later?
Or they could split it at Bedford/Nostrand:
G - Continental - Queens Local - 53rd St - 6th Av Local - Rutgers - Lafayette Av - Bedford/Nostrand
S - Bedford/Nostrand - Court Sq (- Continental)
- So, install a connection between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Jay St so that the G can connect into the Rutgers tunnel. Basically, the G becomes a Brooklyn extension of the V.
I would assume that all that would be necessary would be some sort of switch at H-S. It seems like it would solve a lot of problems:
The G finally goes to Manhattan.
The V could be eliminated.
It would terminate between Court Square and Continental.
The problems I see would be:
Some stations like Greenpoint Ave would have a roundabout route through Brooklyn just to get back to Manhattan. It would still be faster for them to transfer at Court Sqyuare to Ely Ave. All in all though it would improver service for alot of the other stations, and passengers from Greenpoint AVe, Nassau, etc would be no better or worse off anyway.
Ideally, the G should be set up as a loop so a connection at H-S (which I think would be relatively simple I think), and another at Court Square (which would would be a little harder).
Even the connection between H-S and Jay St would require some expensive tunneling and so isn't really likely to happen. Unless of course you forced the G onto the A/C tracks, thus reducing their capacity, which also would not be a good idea.
"Ideally, the G should be set up as a loop so a connection at H-S (which I think would be relatively simple I think), and another at Court Square (which would would be a little harder)."
Makes the workings of the Circle Line in London seem simple. "This is Edgware Road. This train is about to sit around for twenty minutes for no apparent reason, then leave very slowly."
I hate Edware Road. There is a main line train leaving Paddington in ten minutes time, the next is not for another two hours, so all the drivers at Edware Road get off their trains to have a picnic or whatever. The level of information there is non-existant. It is almost as though the people at the station don't have a clue.
I found the stations you refer to on the map, and understand completely what you mean. The transfer at Kings Cross appears to be through a passageway, rather than at a platform. Possibly, a similar situation exists at Euston as well. The point is that the two lines are considered "parallel" most of their route, but cross each other in the "perpendicular" direction with at least two stations for transfer.
I don't think such a situation exists in NYC. One could imagine that instead of a second IND trunk line on 6th Av, the City decided to build it further east, say, Madison Av, but have the same "northern" extensions on CPW and in Queens. Along 53 St, the 2nd Av trains from CPW would stop not only at 7 Av, but 5 Av as well. Thus, a rider on the "D" or "B" could get on at 7 Av, go "south" to 5 Av, get off, get on a "southbound" E, and return to 7 Av.
I personally was not too crazy about the Kings Cross, Waterloo and Bank stations. And any station that is closed because the elevator is out of order.
Kings Cross is interesting though in which if you want to transfer between the Northern/Victoria Lines and the Hammersmith/Circle/Met Lines, you have to pass through one set of turnstiles and leave the fare control area and then walk about 250 yards to get to the second fare control area and pass through those turnstiles.
Kinda like the old setup at Franklin Av for the A/C/S lines, but not as easy as that.
My least favourite are:
1) Hammersmith. It really is a joke. The District to Piccadilly Line interchange is easy - it's across the platform. The Hammersmith and City Line Station is the other end of Hammersmith.
2) Edgware Road (Cir, Dis, H&C - not Bak). Time seems to stop here - no trains move for absolutely aaaaages. Then every train seems to go to Parson's Green, regardless of where you want to go.
3) Eusless Euston Square. Conveniently about 600 yards from Euston main line station. Really exactly what one needs when one's arrived on a late running Virgin Train from Birmingham when the Buffet closed at Coventry.
Aren't the two Hammersmiths considered two separate stations?
Is there even a free transfer there?
They are indeed two separate stations, but one is allowed to make a free transfer between them.
Hence there are some versions of the map that show it as a 3-line interchange. Shame that they demolished the track connection from the H&C Line to the District west of Hammersmith!
When was it demolished? It was last used nearly a century ago.
What other free passenger transfers require a stroll outside fare control?
What other free passenger transfers require a stroll outside fare control?
Not sure if your question was specific to London, but here in Chicago, we have such a transfer between the State/Lake elevated station (Brown, Green, Purple, and Orange lines) to the State Street Subway (Red Line). One must leave fare control, go up (or down) to street level, and enter the other station. You have to use a farecard to take advantage of the free transfer, but no fare is deducted.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Ah, yes, I used that transfer a few years ago, when it still used paper. Glad to hear it's been electronified. Does the transfer function independent of any other transfer privileges the CTA offers? Is an exit swipe required?
As most of us here know, the TA introduced two "walking transfers" on 12/16/01: at 63/Lex (F) - 59/Lex (4/5/6/N/R/W) and at 45th Road (7) - Court Square/23rd-Ely (E/G/V). They're only available with MetroCard and they take the place of any transfer to or from a bus that you might have been planning. There's no exit swipe, so, in fact, one can take the subway anywhere, walk to one of the four approved stations, and get back in for free. I've used this many times to make round trips for one fare.
With all the transfer privileges out there, I wonder if the TA has considered allowing unlimited transfers to anything within two hours of the first swipe.
Does the transfer function independent of any other transfer privileges the CTA offers? Is an exit swipe required?
No and no. It seems to work much the same way you describe on the NYCTA's two "walking transfers" you mention. (In fact, New York and Chicago use identical fare control systems.)
I've used this many times to make round trips for one fare.
A few years ago the CTA changed the transfer rules to allow a transfer to be used on the same line it was purchased on, allowing round-trips to be taken on one fare as long as the last segment begins within the normal 2 hours.
The way transfers work in Chicago is that the initial ride is $1.50, one transfer within 2 hours is another $.30, and a second transfer within that same two hours is free. I'm not sure how that compares with the NYC system.
-- David
Chicago, IL
NYC's transfer policy is simple: each paid fare (via MetroCard) comes with one free bus-bus, bus-subway, or subway-bus transfer (subway-subway transfers are done inside fare control, with two exceptions), valid for about two hours (2:18, actually, but clocks may not be synchronized and two hours is the only guarantee -- on Monday I had to pay a second fare even though I was just barely within the 2:18 window, but I had no recourse). For bus-bus transfers, the two buses must be different lines, so straightforward round trips are out, but in many cases there happen to be two different lines that both travel between point A and point B, or maybe the same trip is possible via subway or via a single bus. Pairs of subway trips are never allowed except at the four aforementioned stations.
Oh, wait, there's one more exception, due to a technicality. The B42 bus stops at the Rockaway Parkway L station inside fare control, right at the platform. Let's say you live in Canarsie near the B42. You board the B42 and dip your MetroCard. You transfer to the L train into Manhattan and spend an hour there. But you still have a transfer encoded on your card, and, better yet, it's a transfer from a bus! So when you swipe at the L station in Manhattan, no fare is deducted. So you ride back to Rockaway Parkway and board the B42 for free.
i'm going w/ my older bro to D.C. i a few weeks, and we're thinking of doing a little railfanning along the way. i was wondering if the WMATA is accessible of not, and if it is, then how accessible it is, thanx everyone :)
WMATA is one hundred percent accesible. All the stations have elevators in them as do most of the buses. The gap between the train and platform is almost non-existant. Do be advised that elevators are out of service for various reasons. These announcements are not always made on trains and sometimes, while they are made in stations, you have to be in the station at the right time and even those aren't always audible. There is a whiteboard at each station manager's kiosk so you can check up on the statuses. You can also see it on Metro's website (www.wmata.com) and you can also call 202-637-7000. Enjoy your trip!
MetroRail was designed to met the requirements as set by the American with Disabilities Act (ADA). Make sure you check to see what stations have elevators out of service.
Recently one rider (who uses a wheelchair) found several station that had non-working elevators that was not listed. He vented by yelling a four letter word at the station manager from the platform. The manager warned him to stop it, and he yelled the word again. A WMATA police on duty served him with a $25.00 ticket. The WMATA board (after reading about this in the Wash Post) is trying to get the ticket dismissed over the bad PR.
It's time to abandon the Manhatan Bridge and place the tracks in two 2 track tubes from Dekalb Avenue to Canal Street (BMT Broadway) & Grand Street (BMT/IND 6th Avenue). I don't think the bridge will be ready before 2004.
Manhattan brideg repairs started back in 1983. A lot of the bridge's problems are due to it's basic design flaws. I think it will be "under repair" way past 2004. Long-term the state and city have to think of some kind of a replacement for it in the next 20 years.
The Manny B wouldn't be shut down at all if the subway tracks weren't built on the outside of the structure, and if important preventive maintenance hadn't been deferred for so many years.
If structurally possible, it would've been smart to close the outer tracks, construct two tracks in the center of the structure, and make the current North-South side tracks roadways. Build a tunnel under the river to handle the extra traffic not handled by the two new tracks. I strongly favor trains over cars, but the Manny B is overstuffed with truck and commercial traffic taking advantage of its free toll. If this plan could work, it would create two new travel lanes and help solve the problem. And the center tracks would pretty much eliminate the span's current twisting problem.
The outer trackways are the kiss of death for the MB, but in general suspension bridges don't lend themselves well to rail traffic.
There's an even easier solution-
Remove the center roadway. With the current deck and cable layout, the Manny B could perform as a pair of parallel bridges. The center roadway is what twists the opposing sides of the bridge when the trains go over it.
The question is, however, would each independant structure have stability not to sway?
-Hank
Remove the center roadway. With the current deck and cable layout, the Manny B could perform as a pair of parallel bridges. The center roadway is what twists the opposing sides of the bridge when the trains go over it.
That's an interesting idea. Or maybe they could just remove the middle 12 inches of the center lane and fill the gap with some sort of flexible material?
I don't understand all this negative attitude toward the Manhattan Bridge. It was misdesigned originally: the trains on the outside put a lot of twisting force onto the bridge, which is supposed to be fixed by massively stiffening of the bridge deck.
They supposedly fixed the south side of the bridge by stiffening it, and you don't hear any rumors that it is again under too much twisting strain. Do you all think there is a vast conspiracy to hide its defects from the public?
IMO, absolutely. There's gotta be some sort of defect. Maybe one day, the entire bridge will just collapse because it "can't" twist and there's just too much pressure built up. Really though, if they told the public that something was wrong, don't you think that the public will be skeptical (with good reason too) that their tax dollars were wasted?
"if they told the public that something was wrong, don't you think that the public will be skeptical (with good reason too) that their tax dollars were wasted? "
Tax doallrs were not wasted! The bridge will colapes and fall when it does so, but upkeep on it is necessary and will continue to be necessary until it does fall. Not spending money will hasten its fall.
Replacing the bridge or at least the lines with tubes seems to be too major a project to contemplate, yet this too must be done. No loss if cars can't get in, or if trucks must pay at the Battery Tunnel, but the complete loss of transit links would be a disaster much greater than the loss of the Trade Center, though hopefully no where near as many lives will be lost (if any at all, if the bridge is simply closed when the time comes).
Politicians will have to take there heads out of the sand (or wherever) and open the purses for major transit upgrades and extensions. They built all of those @#$% roads on the public purse, the least they can do is to build mor transit quickly andwithout hassles.
Bring back Robert Moses to put the NIMBYs in their place and get on with it already!
I hear your idea; well the Manhattan Bridge is more then likely going to be replaced within the next 50 years. Right now the city is a finical deficit, and the odds that they would not tear down the bridge to replace it with either a cable stayed or suspension bridge that would cost at least $500 million+ would be impossible. The city is saying "this band aid will hold long enough until the deficit then we build a new" The new bridge will be a wider bridge then the current one, so that it could hold 4 subway tracks in its center and have two out lanes on each sides. 2 going towards Manhattan, to going towards Brooklyn, and the upper level will be 4 lanes each direction of traffic. Probably with connections to the F.D.R. Drive as well *which I might as well mention is falling apart*
So don’t expect a new bridge to grade NYC for sometime. I think also NYC got its head together and noticed they were spending big time money, so the faster the bridge is stiffened the less money has to go to the bridge maintenance, and money can go else where.
Well since I won't be around in 50 years I will have to hope some other Sea Beach fans are around to see that my train is back on the bridge, or the new bridge or whatever. Until then I will be fulminating about getting the N train back on the Manny B. You didn't think I was going to relent on this, did you?
"You didn't think I was going to relent on this, did you?"
There is no reason why you should...
The (N) belongs on the MannyB and that is all there is to it.
The (Q), the (N), and the (T) belong on the Manny B
The (QT) and the (RR) belong in the tunnel.
: )
Elias, you are a gentleman and a scholar and now a blood brother. I wish the TA could see it like we can, and I would still like to know why TWO Brightons are on the bridge? It doesn't make sense and it is totally bogus from my (our points) of view.
Right! Put the (D) back on the Culver where it belongs! : )
HEY DONT DO THAT! My D on the brighton forever!
Sorry Chris....
The (D) belongs on the Culver Line!
The (F) can go across to South Fourth Street the way the Grand Poobhas meant for it to go. (If anyone wants to build the tracks for it.) : )
Hey! does anyone else remember that old Hearlad Tribune ad that had the (D) Train above the Gowanus Canal? What was the name of the paper supposed to be. It was never born, but all of the papers that were involved with that folded during the strike.
"..papers....folded during the strike."
No pun intended, I'm sure.:-)
It's worth a rim shot anyway.
Why does the D belong on the Culver line? It only ran there for 13 years. The F has been there for 35. To put it into perspective, the Q ran on 6th Ave for the same amount of time. Does the Q belong there? Hell no.
<>
I agree completely.
Original the plan was to merge three papers -- the Herald Tribune, World Telegram & Sun and Journal American -- into two as far as pooled operations/expences went. The Trib would stay mornings while the WT&S and the JA would be merged into one afternoon paper. But after a strike by some of the unions fearing job losses, the finanical situation was cut back to the point that there was only one paper, a morning hybrid called the World Journal Tribune, published out of the old World Telegram building at West and Vescey streets (across from the WTC site). That paper lasted all of nine months in 1967-68 before dying. The only things that live on in the newspaper world is the Herald Tribune's international editon, which was taken over by the Times and the Washington Post, and the old Journal American building on South Street, which the Post moved into, and which it still uses, even though the editorial offices are at Rockefeller Center now.
Uh, your D currently terminates a borough too soon for that to be an option.
It's only temporary ... sorta like when the Q became an IND line. :)
D belongs on Culver! Bring back the T to West End and the Q, QB, and QT to Brighton :-)
I suppose that you want to send the (N) via Sea Beach too!
Well, at least we will keep ther (RR) on Fourth!
: ) Elias
Amen to that! Those are the lines/letters I grew up with. I'm glad to see SubTalk back!
Fred and Elias:
At the risk of incurring your wrath [(but let's keep this friendly- we're just sub-chatting here :)]
I share your nostalgia for seeing the N over the Manny B- I'm old enough to remember it, though not old enough to have ever known the QT or T (on 11/26/67, Mom was carrying me. She tells me that I kicked a lot).
However, it's been AGES since the N traversed the Manny B. I bet many of the nice folks living in Brooklyn Heights, SoHo, etc., don't know that it ever did. I also bet a lot of people in Bensonhurst and Boro Park LIKE the W.
Therefore, when and if all 4 tracks are opened, I'd suggest the following:
24/7 service on the W from Ditmars to Coney, on its present route.
The B can run on the Sea Beach, from 145th or Bedford Park weekdays, maybe Pacific Street weekends (I think there's less use of the Sea Beach than the West End, so the West End rightly deserves full time connection to Manhattan, without another re-naming)
The N can run weekdays (either all day or rush hour) from Ditmars to Whitehall St.
The D returns to its route and service pattern in effect on 7/21/01.
The Q runs from 57th/7th to Brighton Beach, same as present "Q-diamond". Depending on demand, it can be all day weekdays or rush-hour.
Fred, just wondering, are you concerned with the N being on the bridge or whatever services Sea Beach on the bridge? Let's say that for whatever reaosn, the W and N switch routes. Would you want the N on the bridge or the W (since it now serves Sea Beach) on the bridge?
Aw c'mon, guy ... Unca Fred won't be happy until the train on the SeaBits says "#4" on the bulkhead. :)
Selkirk: That would be nice but it isn't going to happen. However, my favorite letter has always been N, and so I can certainly live with that. If it gets another letter, however, I would be ticked off big time.
Just checking for a pulse, bro. Heh. Welcome back! :)
If it gets another letter, however, I would be ticked off big time.
Fred, How did you feel about the M interloping there after 9/11? At least they are neighbors in the alphabet.......
I tried to put on a happy face when that happened since M is the letter for the Mets, my favorite baseball team. But it was still hard for me to take. The Sea Beach is the N and must remain so.
lalalalalala....lalalalalala....my entire team sucks! thats what Mets stands for.GO YANKEES!! still,i like the M train a little bit.maybe when the bridge is open,the M will get bumped off West End and go to Bay Ridge with the R.I think the people over there need another train besides the R,especially for those at 86th st.The N will go over the bridge,im certain of it,if not,all those in favor of sueing the MTA say "Aye" ....Aye!
I want the N on the bridge. That is the Sea Beach, just as the old BMT#4 was the Sea Beach. Anything else is a fraud. The N is the Sea Beach period. The W is the West End.
Well, over the last couple of weekends, the N has been getting GOs to go over the bridge. It was only in one direction, but still great none-the-less to have an R32 rolled up as "N" over the south side.
I heard that from Steve8AVEXP, but they run only late at night. Still, it is better than nothing and I will try to ride the train over the bridge one night while I'm in town. That will be difficult for me since I am not a night owl. Eatly to bed, early to rise, you know.
Say Fred, you might want to bring someone with you when you do take an N over the bridge. Or go as a group. Just a suggestion.
The GO of the N going over the bridge in one direction isnt just during late nights,its on weekends too.As long as work at Dekalb Ave continues,the MannyB. will see the N late nights and weekends,even if just in 1 direction
Did you hear that, Fred? You may not have to wait until midnight after all.:-)
"The W is the West End."
I thought they'd defined the W by its Northern Terminal, Astoria.
No, no, no. The T is the West End. I don't know why they didn't include a yellow T on roll signs.
The T WAS the West End.
The letter "T" has not been used to denote a West End service (0r anything else) since the late 1960s, and there are no plans to bring the letter back for any service anytime soon. The current main West End service is designated W, with additional service being provided via M trains on weekdays. Railfan wishes aside, that's the way it is and that's the way it will be for a while.
David
That's OK. We came up with a bunch of nicknames for the W last fall and entertained ourselves by rattling them off whenever we saw one.
I take the W train. Oy do i hate it! I'm from bensonhurst so i take the M whenever possible. yet, i bought a W train subway t shirt. go figure. i'm a messed up kid. lol.
The T WAS the West End.
The letter "T" has not been used to denote a West End service (or anything else) since the late 1960s, and there are no plans to bring the letter back for any service anytime soon. The current main West End service is designated W, with additional service being provided via M trains on weekdays. Railfan wishes aside, that's the way it is and that's the way it will be for a while.
David
FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND,the T is suppose to return,to replace the R on Queens Blvd.while the R is suppose to run up 2nd avenue.
Where the hell do you get this.
When both sides of the bridge will open, there will still be a train (the Q) ending at 57th. Guess what will be used on Second Avenue?
I thought they'd defined the W by its Northern Terminal, Astoria.
YEah but then the N is NOT the Sea Beach, it too is "Astoria". I like it the other way, by calling it by Southern route. ANd actually I still consider the B to be the West End.......
"I still consider the B to be the West End....... "
BAH! (B) is aa interloper!
(T) is WEST END!
Then why not for the (W)?
should read "Then why not < N > for the (W)?"
OK guys, you can keep jousting about the W and the T and anything else that comes to mind just so long as the "N" doesn't get involved in it. The N is the Sea Beach and who gives a damn what they call it in Astoria anyway? Astoria is a johnny-come-lately to the N route anyway. What since 1986 or so? Or was it later? The Sea Beach has been around a hell of a lot longer than that. SOOOOOOOOOOO, remember this, the "N" is the SEA BEACH!!!!!!!
Say guys, let's have some alphabet soup for the West End Line and it'll keep Fred :) :) :).
When the West End operates via Broadway to Astoria call it "T",
When the West End operates via 6th Avenue call it the "B",
When the West End operates in Brooklyn only, call it the "W",
that saves the "S" for the Frankie & 42nd Street scoots.
Everybody should be happy on West End, we are B T W and no S,
and Fred keeps his N for the SeaBee.
:) Sparky
See how easy it is to please me? Take a well deserved bow Giovanni
The W only runs to Astoria on weekdays. It always runs on the West End.
Personally I like both, N and W running on the MannyB. I hope TA will keep the W on the the bridge and run with N in Brooklyn in 2004. Would it be nice to have B D on the Northside and N Q W on the southside in 2004. N runs fulltime and W runs only rush hours, midday, and evening; and Q runs the same time as former orange Q.
I assume by W you mean the second Astoria service.
Where would the W go in Brooklyn? If it's a Sea Beach train, it's pretty much the same as having more Ns. If it's a West End train, that makes 3 services for the West End.
I think the W is needed more as a local to Whitehall St., replacing the N which we all hope will be an MB express.
Good to know "we all" hope the Sea Beach will be on the Manhattan Bridge again one day. I"hope" that includes the TA, who just happen to make the decision concerning who goes on the bridge or not.
Bridge Smidge, I have always marveld how slowly those trains creep across the bridge and four to six lions josteling into the DeKalb Avenue plant.
A Tunnel *would* be FASTER, but what the Montaque Tunnel hasl LOCAL STOPS on in, and Brooklynites nor more that those Queens form Queens wont ride on a local if there is an EXPRESS within sniffing distance, no matter how slowly that express runs.
Clearly NEW TUNNELS are needed to replace the bridge (which *is* goint either fall down, or be perserved as a pedestrian and LRV land mark before another 25 years have passed ~ [so sayith I] - )
So sayith you. Well said, I think. However, as long as the bridge is intact the Sea Beach should be a part of it. So sayith I. But I respect your opinion and maybe down the road decades from now we might get one or two new tunnels. But I prefer a new bridge. It looks pleasing to the eye to view the scenery from the vantage point ofa bridge. What the hell do I have to look forward to in the Montague Tunnel except occasionally spotting a rat scurrying from one habitat to another.
"What the hell do I have to look forward to in the Montague Tunnel except occasionally spotting a rat scurrying from one habitat to another."
Take a flashlight with you.
When you find a rat, his eyes will light up. Way Cool!
The (N) belongs on the BRIDGE.
and it is supposed to be an EXPRESS on Broadway!
Let that creature ride in the Tunnel with the (RR)!
"What the hell do I have to look forward to in the Montague Tunnel except occasionally spotting a rat scurrying from one habitat to another."
Take a flashlight with you.
When you find a rat, his eyes will light up. Way Cool!
The (N) belongs on the BRIDGE.
and it is supposed to be an EXPRESS on Broadway!
Let that (W) creature ride in the Tunnel with the (RR)!
I was referring to the posters on this board, who overwhelming responded to a survey earlier this year more or less to the effect that the B and D should go over the north side of the bridge and the N and Q over the south side in 2004.
We'll have to see if the TA agrees with what seems like such complete common sense.
Isn't that how it's supposed to be, anyway? One Brighton and one 4th ave bridge service on both sides?
Maybe, if they wanted, they could run some sort of one-way West End express off Broadway. From 57st to Coney Island, then yard. In the morning, the reverse. It'd be on a similar schedule as the Rock Park A.
It'd be just our luck that maybe DeKalb Tower's laziness would cause this arrangement:
B/D: North side, Stop at DeKalb, Brighton Local and express.
N/Q: South side, DeKalb Bypass/4th ave express. Q West End, N Sea Beach
M/R: Tunnel / Fourth Ave Local / Normal
Ta-Da! DeKalb Tower has nothing to do except watch the trains roll by! Stupid plan? Of course! But the way they seem to like to simplify switching operations, I wouldn't put it past them.
That would be pretty impressively stupid. No access from Brighton line to Broadway in midtown Manhattan. And from Sea Beach or West End to 6th Ave would require 3 trains.
I think the TA understands better than it used to that it has to pay attention to customers. They can't work miracles (like getting more trains onto the QB express track), but they do seem to be trying to do the best they can with the resources and work rules they have.
>>>If it's a Sea Beach train, it's pretty much the same as having more Ns<<
I mean W as part-time Sea Beach Train stopping at N station from 36 to Stillwell.
>>>If it's a West End train, that makes 3 services for the West End.<<
Actually No!, because there is no need to run three train via West End.
>>I think the W is needed more as a local to Whitehall St., replacing the N which we all hope will be an MB express. <<
Here's what I have in mind for Whole MannyB Service in 2004.
B Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Nights] – All stops, 145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; express stops from 59 Street, Manhattan to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge); Rush Hours extended to Bedford Blvd, The Bronx.
[Nights] – BROOKLYN SERVICE ONLY: All stops from 36 Street to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave.
Transfer to N or R at 36 Street for service to/from Manhattan.
D Train: 6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Rush Hours] – Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Rush Hours] – Express Stops in The Bronx on trip to Manhattan (AM rush hrs), to The Bronx (PM rush hrs), express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
N Train: Broadway Local
[Middays/Rush Hours] – All stops in Queens and Manhattan, express stops in Brooklyn from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evenings/Nights] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens, through Manhattan, to Coney Island/ Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Weekends] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 57th Street/7th Ave, Manhattan; express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn; all stops in Brooklyn from Dekalb Ave to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island (via South Side Manhattan Bridge). Transfer to R for local service in Manhattan. On weekends nights, N makes all local stops in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn, from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
Q Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM] – Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn, and N or R for service to/from Manhattan.
Transfer between D N and R at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
R Train: Broadway Local
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
(via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights] – All stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
Transfer to E at 42nd St for local service in Queens.
W Train: Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge); All stops from 36th St to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn (via N).
[Evenings/Nights/Weekends]: No Service; Use N instead.
Increase R service during nite hours from Midnight-6AM
Run the M til 12AM on weekdays
Sounds very reasonable, except that I would contend the W is needed more on Broadway in lower Manhattan than over the bridge to the Sea Beach line. I would terminate it at Whitehall St.
Or Instead of terminate the W in Whitehall. W can run to Stillwell via N through tunnel.
Of course, you can always add more service by lengthening the W. But does the Sea Beach line need more service than the N provides? I don't know personally, but many other postings say traffic there is considerably lower than on the West End, which in turn is lower than Culver, which in turn is far lower than Brighton.
Before 9/11, the N definetly needed more service. Now, for obvious reasons, the service is enough. During rush hours, they are crowded, but not to the point of say, a 7 train. Ns aren't empty either. I would certainly like to see more service because I hate waiting, that's why I time myself so that by the time I get to the station, the train's almost there. I do believe, however, that if the N were to get bridge access, and it being the only one along 4th Avenue to get it (W goes tunnel), service will definetly have to be increased.
Post-2004, there will be the B on 4th Ave going over the bridge as well.
Hmm, good point. Then I guess N service wont need any increses since a lot of people take bridge to chinatown. It will be interesting to see whether Grand street or Canal will get more service; my money's on Canal.
Here is something I posted on The Other side of the Tracks "Why can't the Q..." thread
Message:
"At this point, the planners are looking at all kinds of things, including some that have never been done (at least on a scheduled basis). I don't think anything's been ruled out yet -- if it is physically possible to do, it is in the mix at this point."
Oh, I didn't know they were being that extensive. I know there's alot of other things they could do, such as combining the Q and V, (like it would have been had 63rd St opened first), but since many people have been expecting the Q to return to Broadway and stay, when they do the public survey to help determine what goes where, I'm sure they'll want the Q to stay on Broadway.
Some of the East River Crossings Study plans had the M return to Brighton, and some had it going to 95th, so those are the main two options other than the West End. In either case, it would now be the rush hour only service (while the Q is now fixed as the all weekday service, in reverse of the Chrystie era pattern) If they do that, I could see them replacing the M on the West End by keeping the W, and running it all the way local through the tunnel to Astoria to replace the N which would be completely bridge and express. (This is just the extension of the long proposed Whitehall service.) Or of course, they could just increase B service.
Perhaps they may try actual West End express. Sea Beach express, probably not, since it doesn't pick up enough passengers. Perhaps if it runs express only from Kings Hwy, but that probably still isn't enough.
But the core service pattern of D/Q Brighton, R 95th, B West End, and N Sea Beach I don't see them changing The N, Q and R were in place since 1915-20 (so lettered in 1960), and the B and D fixed since the earliest Chrystie St. plans in the 60's, so that seems to be the universal pattern. I always thought it would be interesting if the Brighton decides it prefers only 6th Av. and the West End would rather have Broadway service, is keeping the W on West End, and sending the B to Brighton Beach. Then you'd have the type of frequent Brighton-6th Av. service you had before, but with a line that belongs on 6th Av. But once again, it seems most people would like the choice between 6th Av. and Broadway.
But I doubt that the Sea Beach would want 6th Av. service for a change, [it was proposed, but only for north side only open, to give them bridge service] or the Brighton want only Broadway service, or any of them have the short Nassau St. trains as a predominant local or express or the only service. Could you see having a 6th Av. line or even Broadway express as the 95th St. service? Since it comes from the bridge, it would have to switch over somewhere.
So from seeing the service patterns so far, and the "policies" that have seemed to have formed (e.g. as less switching as possible; main Brighton and West End services use bridge, etc.) it is hard to believe that the options are not so limited.
As for weekend service, once again, it's hard to picture them doing anything other than the same old B, D, N. R arrangement. It would be nice to have Brighton express, but I don't know if enough people have been asking for it, or if enough people ride to only exp. stops for it. Even though I always hated making the 3 extra stops from Newkirk to Prospect Park, or 5 extra stops from Newkirk to Sheepshead Bay when growing up, it's not as long or as many stops as the Fulton St. line, which finally got weekend exp., and definitely not as many as Queens Blvd. and CPW. As for the M, there is no demand for any Nassau St. service to the south outside of rush hours. What I would like to see them do instead is send it up 6th or 8th Av. from Essex so people on this end who are not right near the L would have direct service to midtown. (Now this is on weekends, when more people are going to midtown than downtown, and it won't interfere with heavy weekday midtown traffic).
Also keep in mind that in 2004, the Stillwell rehab won't be finished, so everything except the West End will still be cut back. This may also limit capacity at the intermediate terminals.
They need to clone Hell Gate Bridge and use it as a subway crossing. You could stack Triplexes four deep on it and it would say, "Is that all?".:-)
I have news for you, in fifty years, the bridge (WHEN and IF it is ever constructed) may very well be for rail traffic only, and guess what?
That's exactly what the Manhattan was constructed for when it opened in January of 1910.
The Manhattan Bridge had 2 pedestrian walks on the outside, 8 rail tracks (4 heavy rail and 4 trolley directly above) and 4 lanes of vehicular traffic in the center, when it opened in 1910. This bridge was never dedicated to rail traffic.
It certainly was NOT designed for the numerous tractor trailers or trucks using the structure today. In 1910, an automobile was a rarity, most of the non-rail traffic was horse drawn. Engineers in 1904-05 could not have forseen the magnitude of heavy vehicular traffic that now traverses the bridge.
In at least the majority of the traffic was designed for rail, however the placement of the tracks at the outer edges left much to be desired.
I have to disagree with you on the subject of the FDR Drive. It's been sufficently rehabbed to the point that buses are now permitted on the full length, and the FDNY retired it's special FDR Response units two years ago.
-Hank
Welcome back everyone !
Chris,
Anyway, it's unlikely that the bridge will be torn down. Especially if it were declared a landmark, which it rightfully is. This is not to say that the subway will always go over the bridge, however. Eventually, a tunnel will probably built to connect the lines.
JDL
Years ago, I remember reading of an idea to place a dam across the East River. The kinky thing is that this would actually *significantly* improve water quality, both in the E River and LI Sound; it would cause greater tidal flushing of the two bodies. It would also generate a significant amount of hydropower. There would be a navigation lock. Since is was being sold as an 'eco-friendly' project, all the usual EPA problems are missing. What makes it salient to this forum is that you could put rail tracks across it: six tracks at Houston St? Anyone heard anything recent about this?
There was also a proposal to change the status of the East River to the extent that high bridges would no longer be necessary. It would essentially become a barge canal. Low bridges are considerably cheaper to build.
When they really do realize the Man and Wil bridges have to be replaced, then they will get creative in what's to be done.
The was one proposal in the 1960's to completely fill in the East River with land fill and build streets, buildings and subway lines.
Completely filling the East River? I doubt it. Ages ago, there was a plan to similarly completely fill Jamaica Bay.
I suspect, however, that there will nonetheless be some major fill projects, if only to accomodate some major infrastructure improvements -- heavy rail lines, subways, expressways, sewer plants, even light rail train yards, and probably, at least partly financed by some super-luxury high rise development.
More likely is a downgrading of its current navigable waterway status, from the current more or less 'open seas' to that of a barge canal (a la the Gowanus canal). Replacement bridges are suddenly (comparatively) cheap, and subway connections on such bridges are also easier and cheaper to do.
I dunno, but I think if you do anything major to change the East River's status and image, it would just make this place seem a little bit less New York. It just wouldnt be the same with a "Barge canal" with low-level swing bridges or something of the like.
Aside from the cost, I can see a couple of major issues:
1. Does commercial shipping still matter to the East River? Probably not, but I'm not sure of the answer.
2. Houston St is not a good place to put tracks across the river. The people originating from Brooklyn and Queens are funneled further south by the existing major lines (Fulton St, Brighton, 4th Ave, IRT).
3. Most dams are pretty narrow on top. You'd need an absolute minimum of 24' to put in even two tracks, and typically the top of dams are less than that. Even Hoover and Glen Canyon dams, which are absolutely massive, are just about wide enough for a 2-lane road.
Dams are wider at their base than at their tops due to water pressure. Of course, if the top was 24' wide, you could concievably tunnel the tracks through it. But a damn is not going to happen.
Since the closure of the Brooklyn Navy Yard, the majority of the traffic on the East River is pleasure boats (including Cirle Line and dinner cruises).
-Hank
One morning last week, and this morning, I got on a 2 train pulling in on the downtown express track at 14th, going express to Chambers. The first time, I didn't think anything of it really, I figured it was running late and they moved it over to the express somewhere uptown. Then, it happened again this morning, and once again, I didn't think much of it, until I saw that it said "CHAMBERS ST NEXT" on the in-car display, um, thingy. (It was a redbird last week.) So anyway, I still didn't think much of it, except that it announced Chambers twice -- once before Franklin, once before Chambers. So, I went about my normal day, then around 3 PM, got back in the system at Chambers, and a 2 pulled in. When the doors opened, the announcements were overridden, and the C/R was emphasizing that the train was making all local stops... hmm... then I saw that it was programmed for the next stop as 14th street.
Are these just odd coincidences, or is this preparation to have the 2 go express again? Velly, velly odd...
Nothing odd about it. The R-142's can be programmed on-the-fly to announce all local stops or to announce only express stops. Apparently you were on a train that was malprogrammed.
(Did you really think the programs were reworked for the emergency change in September? Why, then, weren't the transfers updated to include at least the 7/22 changes?)
On the R142s that is going over to the 5, they have. IDK when they are going to work on the 2 line.
Well some 2 trains do run express, especially during rush hours. Its strange. Concider yourself lucky, tevi.
Christopher Rivera
MidnightDragon
Rush hours -- and middays -- and Sunday afternoons -- and early Sunday mornings. I've seen 'em all. I don't think anyone has any idea how much service the local stations actually get, since all 1's and 2's are scheduled to run local but the reality is at the whims (and whims they often are!) of Times Square tower. Some day when I have an hour to kill, I'll hang out at Times Square from 5 to 6 and take a count.
Manhattan: the forgotten borough.
I was on an R62A (2) train a few months ago from 14th St that ran express at least to Penn Station. The trick was that it had been a (3), and had turned arround at 14th. I even got to see them change the rollsign.
:-) Andrew
That must have been one of those 3 trains to the Bronx, resigned as a 2 to reduce confusion. Not a bad idea.
nnn
uh ..........U know the elevated sections where the 5 & 2 split off
i think 18oth street & yards U know ............
did they FIX the CENTER TRACKS as of yet & does the #2 run on the
center express on its way to the end of the north #2 line ???
are the center contruction boards still up ???
hope someboby out dere' knows what i am talkin' bout' ???
lol !!
The 2 is never scheduled to run express in the Bronx.
The 5 is, during rush hours, between E180 and 149-3, SB in the morning and NB in the afternoon.
There is no regularly scheduled express service north of E180, but weekend GO's are common.
question : from bronx park to 241 st street
which if i remember was north of 180 street where if also
i remember the 5 & 2 split off .........but.......
however i wanted to know if north of there where the ....
3 track formats ...
is there any express there on those sets of tracks ( 2 )
it being worked on ( fall 2000 ) ..........
anyway if those of you who ar still there could fill me in
i would be grateful hope i got it right this time !!!
please excuse my typo errors ........thankz
The 5 Super Express uses those express tracks every morning and night.
the one in the center north of the 180 station right ?
"the one in the center north of the 180 station right ?"
As stated in a previous reply, that track is not used for regular service. The 5 runs express south of 180th only.
oh no i am sorry if you misunderstood me ... I know about the north
#5...etc.. it was the north #2- 3 track section(s) i was talking about
after station 180 the 2 has 3 tracks but the center has those boards
you know ( construction )...so the 2 goes local all the way north....
& back, i saw it in 1999 & 2000 only .... the #2 ......north
sorry !!! ( smile ) ...
I don't know if there's ever been scheduled express service north of E180. The middle track is occasionally used for GO's.
Check the 1959 and 1965 maps on this site...the train was known as the Lexington Avenue Thru Express. It stopped at 241, Gun Hill, E 180 and 149/3 Av.
I stand corrected, then.
I noticed that Subtalk was back and when I downloaded the program it said "Welcome Back Sea Beach Fred." Well all I can say is that the pleasure is all mine. It is great to be back and let's pledge to keep things in a civil state so we don't get driven off again. And was that on the Sea Beach line that that new brand new train was running as our new banner? I think so. Good show of class Dave.
Downloaded what? And what banner?
Nevermind, I think I got it.
I noticed that Subtalk was back and when I downloaded the program it said "Welcome Back Sea Beach Fred."
I think it says that for everyone, but it always said that even before the hiatus. It would say, "Welcome back GP38!, your last visit began......." But I know what you are saying....It's great to be back, and was great to see that phrase........
Today instead of taking my usual routhe in the 4 home from work, I decided to take the R. When I got to Canal street I walked downstairs to the Q and when I reached the platform area it just stunk to the high heavens. Does anyone else notice this smell and does anyone know what it is?
BTW:It's nice to have you back Dave
Well since the Canal street bridge station is beneath Canal street, there are fish markets that dump fishy water down onto the sidewalk where it could go down into a subway grate, possibly causing the smell.
It seems to get worse in summer, well fishy water does stink.
Grand street can also have a similar smell, and so can Main street on the 7, because there are alot of fish markets in the area.
Again welcome back everyone!
>>>Grand street can also have a similar smell, and so can Main street on the 7, because there are alot of fish markets in the area. <<<
The more things change . . . etc.,
Peace,
ANDEE
It could also be the stench emenating from Shea Stadium, given the way the Mets have been playing lately.:-(
i remember one time i came back to main st. from the <7>, and it was a really hot, summer day. jeez, the fishys smelled like spoiled fishys. i even saw some water leaking on a poor redbird...heh...it's gonna smell like fishys
That station always had a bad stench. It seemed to be worse when it was abandoned due to the Man. Bridge work. I thought it would go away when they reopened the station, but it is still there. There also weems to be constant water dripping there also.....but of course it is "Canal" Street.
Today instead of taking my usual routhe in the 4 home from work, I decided to take the R. When I got to Canal street I walked downstairs to the Q and when I reached the platform area it just stunk to the high heavens. Does anyone else notice this smell and does anyone know what it is?
Give the 4 another try and take a whiff at Union Square. It's been smelling fishy for the past couple of weeks.
Mark
I've always noticed the express station at 59th/Lex to have a particularly offensive odor, but I've never been able to figure out what it is. Any guesses?
Dan
I know the odor at 59th/Lex lower level but I don't mind it at all, it's smells like a musty chocolate.
Perhaps there's a big chocolate store near one of the tunnel vents.
I've always noticed the express station at 59th/Lex to have a particularly offensive odor, but I've never been able to figure out what it is. Any guesses?
I bet it's got something to do with the slime growing at the south end of the downtown platform.
Mark
Speaking of smells, did anyone hear about the hole in the wall in the Times Sq termina lfor the 7 train a while back? There was a hole in the middle of the platform where "stuff" leaked out. That "stuff" *ahem* was leaking from the bathrooms above the terminal and came out the wall and onto the 7 tracks.
Yeah I remember hearing about that a few months ago, which explains why the 7 level of Times Square always smells like a public restroom. It hasn't stopped me from using the station though, because if you board at 5av or Grand Central the railfan window might be taken.
And with the R62A's coming in the window will be gone, at least on Main street bound trips. Actually it hasn't been that hot lately, and in this temperate 60 degree weather the R33 singles "fan cars" are quite comfortable. The air quality aint bad in there, doesn't have that musty subway A/C smell.
Call me crazy but there's something I like about those R33 singles, the sound of the fans is relaxing.
I noticed it too. Before the bridge opened up, I never smelled it. But I hope it still retain's it's cool-in-the-summer feature.
After all of this time, it's great to have SubTalk back!
If this message goes through, all I want to say is that it's good to be back on board. Especially since in the two months the talks have been down I've been neck deep in work (now I know what being an editor - in - chief feels like!)
Oh, and one more thing: As of 6/3/02, 1300 hrs, I will be considered an MTA employee (well, a college summer intern anyway), with hopefully a pass with those nice little photos on the back. So wish me luck!
The No.6 Line is now 96% R142A's. 7591-7600 came into service 2 weeks ago and as of this week 7621-30 and 7631-40 came into service.
7641-50 are at Unionport and should be going into service in 2 weeks. As most of you know 7641-50 will mark the last set to go to the No.6 Line and the No.4 Line is next in line. I know the No.4 Line run a lot of Redbirds during the week day so enjoy them before there gone. The R142's are going in service at a rate of 2 sets every 2 weeks.
Good Report.
A number of sidelined R-142s are coming out of hibernation after 12+ months and are entering service, a group of which appear to be going to the 5. There haven't been any new deliveries in quite a while.
-Stef
Which ones are coming back? If I remeber there were about 45 cars laid up in the concourse yard. And 20 laid up in lenox yard.
Some cars slated for service:
At East 180th St/239th St Yards---
6361-70
6371-80
6386-90
6391-6400
6401-10
6436-40
6461-65
6486-90
At Concourse Yard---
6441-45, 6491-6500
If I missed any, please help out!
The cars at the East started testing for #5 Service, such as 6366-70 and 6376-80, 6371-75 and 6386-90.
-Stef
6481-85 was hooked up to 6461-65 last week.
?
I thought it was 6461-65 and 6486-90. That's alright. I'm glad to see the black aces coming out of the woodwork....
-Stef
So it looks like they got more than 400 cars. Do they really need that many subway cars? The two and the five don't even need that many.
Most of the Redbirds are dying of cancer. Time to replace them.
Take a look at the headways #6 trains have to make up during the AM rush, and the needed cars in reserve, and you will see why more than 400 cars are needed.
I wish the TA would do whatever needs to be done in regard to those canned announcements. At 51st/Lex announcing "transfer availiable for the E and F" is slightly outdated! Yes, conductors are required to override that female voice and make a live, updated, accurate announcement, but the TA's had 5 months to update it on the data base................P.S. I have a new Email address.
Bill, I've offered to do the updates for free. I'll even throw in a current temperature "upstairs."
And that's Transit and Weather Together!
I think your voice would sound a lot better than those 2 voices now used. Especially the guy, he talks like a drill sargent!
Maybe he was just trying to impress the former administration. :)
I like how the guy always tells my riders "Ladies and Gentlemen For YOUR SAFETY please do not HOLD car doors open while the train is in the station."
Forget about the December changes -- we're still waiting for the July and September changes.
I rode on 7601-7610 in the AM rush on...Monday morning I think.
wait i think it was 7611-7620...yeah that was it.
The last 10 car set (7641-7650) made its way from Unionport to Westchester yard. It only a matter of at least no more then 4 weeks will the No.6 Line be 100% R142A's.
Finally over 3 months without subtalk its great to be back business again I hope these kind of situation won't happen again in the future.
Welcome back all members!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you Dave for bringing SubTalk back Online, I like Subtalk a little better than nycrail.com message board because I get my post answered within minutes.
Actually, There are advantages to having two boards, and I like each one in it's own way.
I have to agree with you GP38.
2 homes is better than 1 ;)
>>>I get my post answered within minutes. <<<
Aprox. 154 minutes in this case . . . 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
On our way back from our railfan trip riding random subway lines, we took NJT back to Metuchen, my home station. As we were pulling out, I noticed what looked like to be an old coach car (behind a long-distance AMTRAK train) but the body was painted with dark blue and the yellow CSX letters on the bottom of the windows.
I think it was attached behind an Amtrak Cafe car #25089.
1) Can anyone tell me what that CSX coach car was doing behind that train?
2) Why does AMTRAK have 5 digit car #'s?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You
Most times strange cars like that on an AMTK train are privately owned varnish, painted in whatever colors and numbers that the current owners like. (Kinda like a 1:1 scale model train).
As long as it is a steel car, and its inspections are current, AMTK will pull it around for you. (At a Pr$ce). They will also always be at the end of the train.
Elias
A PC-2 Amtrak inspection can set you back $ 75 thousand dollars.
Well, if a guy wants to own one of these things and has enough mone to have AMTK pull it around for you, then he has more money than he needs or knows what to do with anyway, so that will be no big deal to him. Besides, I don't thisnk that it has to be an Amtrak inspection, but only current inspection by a proper railroad or maintenance outfit such as MK or something.
What is the significance of the old MARC trains? I see them rarely on AMTRAK trains and the most I saw was 4 attached in a row in the front of the train.
Amtrak has been known to deadhead a whole train of CSX Office Cars along the NEC.
Again Dave, thanks for making this forum possible.
Jim K.
Chicago
Today after i finish doing Operation Plannings at Jackie Gleason Depot & i notice that R30 #8488 is no longer at 36th St Yard. So i went by at SBK Yard to take few pictures & saw R30 #8488 right next to Q train. Took few pictures of R30 #8488 & R33 #9306 oop it not really R33 #9306 is Ex R21 #7261.
Peace
David
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
This is a good indication that not every car is off to the reef. Apparently, there are exceptions. Old fashioned scrapping still exists?
-Stef
First off, It's great to be back!
Second, now there are at least 4 sets of R62A's on the (7). They look great! Now I can ride my favorite line without sweating to death. And what a gorgeous rollsign. That thing seems to proudly announce the (7) to the world.
:-) Andrew
It sure does! Though, as usual, it seems like Corona isn't running all 4 sets at the same time...
rail-fan window .........??........lol !!!
Yes, in one direction. Manhattan-bound, IIRC.
wish the r-62s would not appear on the #7 until all of the redbirds
"R" gone !!!!!!!!!
then bring em in >>>>>>>all r-62s !!!!!!
& ...@ - railfan window on BOTH ends !!!!!!!!!!!
I know you'll miss the railfan window, but what can you do...
It would make no sense getting rid of all of the redbirds, then bringing in all the R62A's. It should be gradual, starting to get ride of the worst redbirds on the 7. They should go, anyway. They are really starting to deteriorate.
oh well they will outlast the R-142S
in the years of operation.........
It is nice having the R62A's on the 7, though lately I haven't been getting them. I'll really appreciate them when the weather gets hot, but I'll always have a place in my heart for the Redbirds. Even the R33 non/AC singles, the sound of those fans and the rumbing is relaxing.
It still must've been something to ride the Rockaway line in the days before A/C, that sea breeze blowing in and the fans.
Hey, QTraindash, do you still have those pics of the premiere or what? They were awsesome and I'd like to see them again to relive the moment!
If the Redbirds can hold out for five more months, I'll be able to say Hello Redbirds one last time.
Steve:
You'll be able to say Hello Redbirds!!!! Trust me.......
I believe it.
>>It still must've been something to ride the Rockaway line in the days before A/C, that sea breeze blowing in and the fans<<
Those dinky R-10 fans did little to move air in the hot summer. If all windows were opened, the sea breeze would suffice while dashing along the flats.
Bill "Newkirk"
yea kiss your railfan window >>>>>>>>>NOT SO GOOD BYE...!!!
There are 5 sets of redbirds on the 7; the easiest way to distinguish them is the numbers of the 5 car sets. 1681-1705 no gaps, plus about 30 singles.
Whoops! I meant R-62s, not redbirds. I'm a little rusty at this, out of pratice.
Whoops! I meant R-62s, not redbirds.
You actually meant R-62A's, but who's counting.
I'm a little rusty at this, out of pratice.
The Redbirds are also a little rusty, but they're out there practicing every day.
I was way too lazy to add that A when I posted (waited in line forever to return my textbooks about 10 minutes before I posted).
Plus in this context I felt the A was an irrelevent addition, since car numbers were provided.
But who's adding?
I was way too lazy to add that A when I posted (waited in line forever to return my textbooks about 10 minutes before I posted).
What keyboard are you using? Remind me to stay away from it if typing one letter is an undue hassle.
Plus in this context I felt the A was an irrelevent addition, since car numbers were provided.
My brain refuses to memorize numbers unless I make an extreme effort. I'm sure at least a few other SubTalkers have yet to memorize which car numbers are R-62's and which are R-62A's!
But who's adding?
Not you, I see. But I was on Division Street yesterday, if that'll do.
I'm sure at least a few other SubTalkers have yet to memorize which car numbers are R-62's and which are R-62A's!
Hey, I've got a long way to go with memorizing what cars are what numbers. My knowledge of that ends with the R27-30's started with an 8 and the R16's started with a 6 I think. Am I stuck in the 80's? Probabably. I rode the subway the most when I was in high school in the late 80's and college in the early 90's. Then I could do it for fun also, besides just using it for work. I wish I had the time now to ride more often. There are some lines I haven't ridden since the early to mid 90's.
The R-62s are assigned exclusively to the 4. They're numbered from 1301 to 1650, IIRC.
Nope. R62 cars are between 1301 and 1625.
Chaohwa
You knew what I was talking about, didn't you? Fine, I'll tack on the A from here on, all this nitpicking has ended up costing me a lot more keystrokes than necessary.
What keyboard are you using? Remind me to stay away from it if typing one letter is an undue hassle.
Raise your hand if you think this is an unfair hostile criticization over nothing.
Raise your hand if you think it was intended in jest.
My apologies if it wasn't taken that way.
this new version of bahn is very different- it has bussed, boats, and curved platforms (it even has slip switches!!!!!), new rail only
(you can make your own cars with caredi(a beta test thing))
Its good to be back!
where can i get the new bahn thingy?
"where can i get the new bahn thingy?"
http://www.jbss.de/hpg_eng.htm
Cleanairbus from the Bronx is back...I look forward to posting regularly or every other day from now on...
Carlton
you know, I can't access any of the photo galleries on your page!!
It's been awhile since I used it last... Anyways, thank goodness for reverse threaded message listings!
-Robert King
I was afraid I'd forgotten mine, but I guess my memory isn't totally shot :)
If you still have the old ".nycsubway.org" cookie, the password was in plain text. I had forgotten mine, but there it was. :)
I'm on from a computer lab terminal away from home and the cookies don't stay very long so I was doing a crap shoot on my password entirely from my [not-very-good] memory... I don't know if the cookie on any of the home computers still exists - I'll have to check on that tomorrow.
-Robert King
Why? Looks like you already have it. :)
The cookie is still here. I was just wondering if it would be, that's all.
-Robert King
Depends on the browser. If it's Ayiee, then it would be in the cookies folder as (yourname)@nycsubway.org, if it's AOLscape, then it would be an entry in cookies.txt that you'd have to edit. Since this would be a read-only operation, no edit but you should see it within the text of the cookie. The password was not encrypted.
...mmmmmmm....cooookie.......
actually, i never cleaned out my cookies(except for spyware) since the site was down. i guess i had faith it would make a triumphant return (which it did)
If you still have the old ".nycsubway.org" cookie
Let's see, I went from Win2000 to WinXPee, back to Win2000, and now I'm typing this from Mandrake Linux 8.2 I installed on a seperate hard drive. I'm pretty sure that cookie is gone :-). Good thing I remembered it.
Damned penguins have the memory of an elephant. Heh. Good choice on the OS, it's what we use here for our "real" computers.
testing...dunno if I remembered it
Just tested the password myself.
Unfortunately for all of you, it works. BWAHAHAHA.
Pull the cord! Pull the cord! BUZZZZzzzzzzzzzz! :)
I left my cookies in place, as I had faith that the "temporary hiatus" was just that - temporary. And my faith was rewarded.
I still stop in Harry's Place, but SubTalk is home - even in Baltimore. Many friendships were started here.
A contribution is in the works.
Hardcore Foaming at subtalk back again. Lets make it like it was before..remember the days of the "old school" Its nice to see everyone back...all the personalities of subtalk that we have come to know and love.
ANyways. What was the Deal with the West Side IRT this morning around 10-1045hrs? I heard something on TV saying that there were no 3 Trains at all then service resumed..I caught a 3 train uptown from 14st and we were inching along as slow as the locals. Anyone can fill me in on the situation? I know there was a person under on the West side but that was i nthe afternoon wasnt it?
Seven, you're insane. Poor you, you have to take that blasted 1-2-3 to work now don't cha? At least you can go to freedom tunnel for lunch...
And I just imagine the delays caused by all that foam. :-)
AT least there aint no Railfan foam down at the freedom tunnel only ckrachead foam, and that has been known as a wheel lubricant saving Amtrak Hundreds of thousands of dollars on wheel lubricants just by running trains through that tunnel
My thankz to the webmaster & many who keep us up 2 date
( weither we "R' in agreement or not )
& since i am on my way there this late summer @ ( in person )
I really need this and other rail transit boards to keep me
up to speed as to whats going on where to shoot railfan videos
& digital stills on ( not just the NYC subway system )
from a warm windy DRY afternoon in NW pasadena Ca. thankz again
big time !!! salaamallah asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
( smile ).....lol !!!
I received a flyer today about the excursion. It seems the train is slated to travel on the 207th St Flyover. I'd guess the train will go down into the yard and back up onto the mainline. It should be interesting.
If I could get myself out of bed on Sunday Morning, maybe I'll be lurking around the platforms.....
-Stef
I wonder what singles from the 7 will be used? It'll be interesting to see on 5/26. And how do the cars get from the 7 to the S at 42 St?
#9327 7 Flushing Local
I thought they were going to be using those, unless I'm mistaken.
If that's the case, you can do a lot with cars that have dual trip cocks. The Flushing Singles can transverse both Divisions with little difficulty.
-Stef
Also, this is said (by the flyer) to be the first time an excursion will travel by the 207th St Flyover.
I've always wanted to see an interdivisional trip held (and be a part of it). Wouldn't that be great?!?
-Stef
What I have heard about the Redbirds for the Memorial Weekend Excursion is that they will be prepared for dumping right after the trip is over...
...aren't they mainline #7 cars?
BMTman
Doug: If what you say is true this could be the best Redbird fantrip yet. Not only will we get a tour of the IRT but then our Redbird train will be loaded on a barge with the railfans in it and we'll take an ocean cruise. Maybe Fred will come along with us and really put the "sea" into Sea Beach.
Best Wishes, Larry
RedbirdR33
You'd better get scuba gear if you're going for a dive with the fishies..........
-Stef
Yeah, either way he'll end up Seeing the Beach...get it...
So...when are ya gonna head up with us to work on "our" Redbird...6688?
BMTman
Are you sure those aren't one-way tickets?:-)
Only Fred's because he paid in cash < G >
I *must* get a waterproof cover for my videocamera :)
--Mark
Can you do me a copy of the video ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Yeah me too! I am not attending the festivities unfortunately, but I do expect to see a young man with a video camera in his hand peering out of the railfan window.......... What do you say Mark (Feinman)?
-Stef
I would love to go on the trip but I cannot get over till November. Mark's videos are the next best thing. I just hope he can force his way through to the railfan window.
Simon
Swindon UK
I've heard that our friend Salmonella has given him some tips.
Mr rt :^)
Ha ha ha ha ha ... no, no tips from Salmonella, as you state :)
Hopefully a little area at the railfan window will be left for me to place a videocamera through. I will be attending most of the CERA activities that weekend.
I hope I'll be able to put my SCUBA gear in one of the unused cabs for the final Redbird trip :)
--Mark
Mark, may I offer some hints to guarentee a place at the railfan window.
1) Several plates of beans the night before.
2) A garlic laden Chicken Korma also the night before.
3) Dress in your SCUBA gear. Not recommended after 1 above.
Best of luck and enjoy the trip.
See you in November ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Ha ha ha ha ha .....
1 & 2 are feasible; it might be difficult to get around though if I put the SCUBA gear on too soon :)
Yes, I'll be there in November ... as soon as you have an idea of when you'll be crossing the "pond", let me know.
--Mark
You mean like standing the tunnel side of the storm door ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Stef, I accept yours and Simon's challenge :)
--Mark
Do you know any more about the itinerary? Also, has anyone here gotten their tix yet???
Also, why go into 207th Street yard anyway?
On previous years Subdivision C on its excursions have taken us on
yard trackage and non~revenue sections. The Redbird trip of 2000,
we looped thru Jamaica Yard & encircled 36th Street in Brooklyn.
The 'D' type in 2001 took us to the "Docks" and other SBK
non-electrified trackage. They try and do something diverse
each year.
For tickets for this year's excursions call: 347-643-5310.
:)Sparky
On previous years Subdivision C on its excursions have taken us on
yard trackage and non~revenue sections. The Redbird trip of 2000,
we looped thru Jamaica Yard & encircled 36th Street in Brooklyn.
The 'D' type in 2001 took us to the "Docks" and other SBK
non-electrified trackage. They try and do something diverse
each year.
For tickets for this year's excursions call: 347-643-5310.
Also remember the benefactor of your contribution for the Excursions
is the "March of Dimes".
:)Sparky
I called them a few weeks ago and sent in the order form for my tickets. Have you gotten yours if you are going?
Got mine today, see you there!
Don't know too much about the itinerary outside of what is being advertised on the flyer that I received. Tix? No clue on this. I can't make it unfortunately, since I'm working that afternoon.
Why 207th St Yard (assuming it actually goes down there)? It's something out of the ordinary to do. The Yard is very much IRT as it is IND, as cars go in for repairs. Use the loop and come back up to the mainline.
-Stef
In the roster of preserved NY rapid transit cars on this site (http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/musroster.html), right near the bottom Manhattan Elevated car #782 is said to have been at the Gettysburg Railroad but that it isn't there anymore. Does anyone have any information on this car? I'm not only interested in where it is now, but when was it at Gettysburg? Why was GRR even interested in it? What condition was it in? Thanks in advance!
Frank Hicks
P.S. Great to have Subtalk back!
Frank:
Nice to see you back here. How's everything going out at IRM? Unfortunately, I haven't been there in months due to: A) My Saturn dying, B) My dead Saturn being replaced by an unreliable gas-guzzler, C) Winter, D) Lack of time due to church and social activities, and E) Lack of gas money due to unemployment since mid-March.
Since I don't really have anyway to contact anybody in the Electric Car Department (aside from you), I feel sort of bad that I disappeared off the face of the earth one day and left everybody hanging. I really do need to get back in the habit of going out there again. (I have, however, promised to take my new lady friend out there sooner or later.)
Be sure to give everybody out there -- especially Pete and Bob -- my regards! I hope to be back out there on a regular basis soon.
-- David
Chicago, IL
David:
Good to hear from you! IRM is still standing, nothing very drastic has changed. Plenty of work going on in the Car Shop, though, and we're hoping to have a couple of new cars running this year or next. You should see the progress on CA&E 308! Anyway, I'll see you out there when you get a chance.
Frank Hicks
Say, how's Old Pullman 460 doing these days? That's one of the cars CTA turned over to IRM a few years back. I saw it back in 1996 and it looked as though it still had the same paint from 1954. Does it even run?
I take it Green Hornet 4391 is doing well.
"Old Pullman" 460 is doing okay. We've never gotten it operating, not because it's in bad shape but because we've got another one (144) that runs and if we were to operate 460 we'd have to replace its street wheels with AAR wheels. I think it still does wear the paint it was given by CTA in the 1950's, but a cosmetic restoration is being done on it. The roof and underbody of 460 have been repainted, as have the cream areas and some of the windows. And, "Green Hornet" 4391 is still soldiering on, operating on some of our special event days.
Frank Hicks
One of my objectives is to be at IRM when 4391 is running (signed up for route 36 or 22). And for that matter the 4000s on the mainline. When I was there, they had an interurban (Illinois Traction or similar) on the mainline and Matchbox streetcar 1374 on the loop. I had read about what it took to restore 1374, so it was interesting to ride on it.
Do any of the Big Orange South Shore cars run?
You may have been at IRM on a weekday, or a weekend during April, May or October. During those light-traffic days, we generally run Illinois Terminal 415 on the mainline and a Chicago streetcar (these days it's 3142, not 1374) on the streetcar line. If you're able to make it out during a weekend between Memorial Day and Labor Day, we'll definitely have more equipment out - almost certainly a train of 4000's, and if you're there on any sort of special event day (see our calendar at www.irm.org) probably the 4391 too.
The South Shore cars haven't operated in a little while, and probably won't be running in the near future either. One car (34) is operational, however our overhead wire is in bad shape and the chances of the Line Dept fixing it soon are not good. Cars with poles run okay, but anything with pans is in danger of the pans getting ripped off the roof (we've already done this to our IC MU cars twice). The guy who is the 34's "mother" has put a moratorium on running the car until the overhead is fixed, fearing damage to the 34's pans.
Frank Hicks
I was there on Monday, July 8, 1996, to be exact. 4391 was signed up for the 8/Halsted route. It seems they've got a bunch of 6000s; I must have counted five pairs of cars.
I'd also love to ride on the Electroliner someday.
IRM has nine 6000 series cars, but a third of them have arrived since 1996. Married-pair sets include 6125-6126 (arrived c1982), 6461-6462 (arr. c1985), and 6655-6656 (arr. 1993). Single-unit cars are 22 (arr. 2000), 30 and 41 (both arr. 1998). We also have 2000-series cars 2153-2154, which arrived in 1993. Of all these Spam Cans, 22, 30, 41, 6655-6656 operate (but only occasionally - they're real juice hogs). And, it may be a while before you get to ride the 'Liner. There are a couple of guys working their butts off on it, but between replacing rot in the carlines at one end, reupholstering the seats and raising money to rebuild traction motors, they've got their work cut out for them. One way to keep up with major progress on the 'Liner is to keep an eye on the North Shore Line webboard at www.northshoreline.com (not to be promoting the competition or anything!).
Frank Hicks
Frank, I wrote to the webmaster some months ago about this very car, and I guess that he has not gotten around to updating the roster yet. I deleted the eMail so all of this is what I can remember of what I wrote.
Car #782 is the property of Sloan Cornell, the former owner and operator of the Gettysburg Railroad. He apparently brought it with him when he started the G-Burg RR in 1976. He sold the RR several years ago and took the car, and other rolling stock with him when he left. He is now operating the Knox & Kane RR in northwestern PA. The car is supposedly stored, under cover in Marienville PA (just off Route 66), on the K & K RR. It can be seen by appointment, according to a relative still living here in G-Burg.
I understand from others that Sloan used the car for tourist train service in the late 1970's for several years. I have lived here for 45 years, never saw the car, or knew what it was until after it was gone. I know that this is rather sketchy, but hope that it helps!
Karl B
>I know that this is rather sketchy, but hope that it helps!
Very much so - thanks!
Frank Hicks
Wow, thanks to Karl B. for jarring my memory! IIRC, 782 is best
described as a box on wheels that used to be a Manhattan gate car.
I think all of the apparatus has been removed and it is basically
a coach with knuckle couplers. I also heard that the interior was
replaced. I'm somewhat fuzzy, but I remember we talked about this
car as one of the ones "out there" that we'd potentially be interested
in, and the conclusion was there wasn't enough original material left
to be worth it.
Jeff, I seem to recall reading an article in an old Electric Lines a few years ago that stated that the car now rode on railroad freight car trucks and had knuckle couplers. All of the end platform hardware had been removed, and the seats had come from an old bus. The article seemed to infer that there was very little left of the car decor except for the interior wood trim, and the number. Unfortunately, I read this article after the car had departed G-Burg.
Hey Karl, speaking of Gettysburg, May 10 marked 30 years since my visit there with my high school band. It doesn't seem that long ago.
If you haven't been here in thirty years, you ought to get back, and see all of the changes that have taken place.
IRT 782 isn't here anymore, but it hadn't arrived here yet when you were here thirty years ago.
Welcome Back Dave and Fellow subtalkers Subtalk/Bustalk were missed.
Welcome back Dave good to see a lot of names of board friends
Hey, welcome back everyone and THANK YOU, DAVE!!! I really missed SubTalk. It was very frustrating because the day I realized it was off-line was when I just came home from my first operating lesson at Branford and wanted to tell everyone about it. Well I'm happy to say I passed with flying colors and after 2 more apprentice sessions I will be a full-fledged volunteer motorman!!! I had my first apprentice session a couple of weeks ago and found the hardest part was giving the barn tour!!!
I also decided that because of the many great hours I've had on SubTalk I did contribute with the Amazon thing. I couldn't give alot as money's tight now but I plan on giving more in the future.
Again:
Thank You Dave!!!
Sarge,
>>>I had my first apprentice session a couple of weeks ago and found the hardest part was giving the barn tour!!!<<<
Being the docent will be your most difficult requisite of being an
operator at Branford. Public speaking was never one of my virtues,
18 years ago, when I qualified. But with time, it becomes second
nature, and remember we do it from the heart, we're not preprogramned clones as at the Theme Parks. Even if you make a mistake, don't get disparaged. Now it's second nature to me. I now have another trained to Dispatch, so I can docent without radio interference.
Looking forward to seeing you on the Railway soon.
:) Sparky
PS~Dave welcome back!
Jeff, A bunch of your friends will be there this week-end. I'll either be a mutual friend of ours "Pilot" or be working on 6688.
Forcast is rain thru most of the morning, so probably the 6688 work will have to wait. Have to look at my cheat sheet to get my facts streight for the tours.
Mr rt :^)
Time to cue up the Welcome Back Kotter theme.:-)
Good! Then we get to see a graffiti-covered, blue-doored R-32 running above New Utrecht Avenue- and a 1970 GM Fishbowl running on the B9.
By the mid-70s, those blue doors on the R-32s had been painted silver.
Does anyone know anything about the status of Trolleyville USA? Their website has gone away and the url is inactive.
The last thing I had heard, the trailer park it is in has been sold and they have 5 years to find a new site and move.
They have a great collection and it would be a shame to lose it.
Trolleyville is still alive and kicking, although AFAIK their 5-year eviction notice is still in effect. I know they are holding a special event this summer to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Chicago Aurora & Elgin. They've also been acquiring new equipment from Cleveland RTA, which is an odd thing to do if you're about to find yourself without a home. (???) Anyway, I would guess that the equipment will find a pretty good home one way or another. The collection will probably stay largely intact - they've got several offers of places to relocate to, most of them at sites that are probably better than their current one (although the new sites probably don't have storage barns). And, if they can't find a new home, there are several trolley museums anxiously waiting in the wings to buy the collection. And, no, for the life of me I can't think of any way to tie this in with the NYC subway system. :-D
Frank Hicks
What equipment does the RTA have that museums would be interested in?
-Robert King
oh, an active pre PCC streetcar occasionally on display, examples of the earlier classes of Rapid cars in the lovely Blue paint scheme,
Any idea why their website was eliminated? Also, they seem to have killed their newsletter as well. I am also the Editor of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum's newsletter, The Live Wire and we get exchange publications from other museums. We haven't gotten one from Trolleyville for quite a while.
Cut yourself off from the world and the rail museum fraternity and nobody knows what's going on.
>Any idea why their website was eliminated? Also, they seem to have
>killed their newsletter as well. I am also the Editor of the
>Baltimore Streetcar Museum's newsletter, The Live Wire and we get
>exchange publications from other museums. We haven't gotten one from
>Trolleyville for quite a while.
>Cut yourself off from the world and the rail museum fraternity and
>nobody knows what's going on.
I wonder if that might be the idea. News from Trolleyville is very hard to come by these days, from any source. At this point pretty much everything is up in the air, and my guess is that Trolleyville is looking at a number of offers to relocate. They may want to make this decision with as little external input as possible, and when they've made their choice just present it as the final decision. They probably don't want people calling them up and saying "Hey, I heard you were doing such-and-such - what a stupid idea!"
BTW, as for the equipment they have supposedly acquired from the RTA (again, the details of this are unconfirmed - if anyone has been to Olmsted Falls recently perhaps they can elaborate), it was supposed to include a couple of Shaker PCC's, one or two Airporters, and a couple of Bluebirds. I don't think the center-entrance car was included - I think that might be going somewhere else.
Frank Hicks
Frank, I was at Olmsted in August (oddly enough on my way back
from IRM). The general manager there told us basically what you
said: they had several offers for sites. He didn't go into specifics,
obviously. They were talking about merging with NORM but that seems
highly unlikely for personality reasons. This guy (I think his name
was Cliff) was insistent that the entire collection would remain
intact and move with them. I think there may eventually be a reality
check, but for now they are swatting away the circling vultures
(including a certain GM from a certain midwest railway museum who
has been known to stop by).
I'm sure the guy you talked to is the GM (?) of Trolleyville, Cliff Perry. He's a little goofy, and has some pretty weird ideas about Trolleyville. At one point I heard rumors (rumors, mind you) that he had an offer out to sell the Trolleyville collection, but only if it stayed intact - and only if he were retained by the buyer as GM for 5 years! Hmm...
>(including a certain GM from a certain midwest railway museum who
has been known to stop by).
Egads! Not NICK!!! :-D
Frank Hicks
Just thought I'd announce here that I was recently accepted into the architecture program at Drexel University in Philly! It's unsure exactly when I'll be moving out there, as much of that depends on my housing and financial situation over the summer (I've been unemployed since mid-March, and I'm in pretty dire financial straits at the moment), but I'm guessing early September at the latest. Worst-case scenario is that I'll have to put all my stuff into storage for a while, find a temporary place to live in Philly, crash there until I find a job and a permanent place to live, and then come back to Chicago to retrieve my stuff.
Any advice or suggestions for cheap temporary (1-3 months) housing in/around Philly? (A bench in 30th Street Station won't quite cut it.)
And for more permanent housing, I'm looking at a few apartment complexes around the city:
Alden Park near Germantown
Fairmount Terrace Apartments near City Line Avenue
Media Station Apartments in Media, PA
Ramblewood Village Apartments in Mt. Laurel, NJ
The Village in Voorhees, NJ
Lakeview Apartments in Blackwood, NJ
...as well as several others.
Anybody have any experience with these particular apartment complexes, or know anything about the areas they're located in?
Thanks in advance...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Congratulations. Perhaps one day you'll be telling us all to visit your newest design.
-Hank
Dave,
I can't help you with your apartment search, but once you're in Philly, we'll have to organize another SubTalk SEPTA field trip. There are some interesting short lines in Eastern PA/South Jersey, too.
Bob
There is one planned for early June. I'll post on it soon.
David -
Glad to hear that you have some good news.
Best wishes in Philly. We'll miss you in Chicago.
-- Ed Sachs
How does your lady friend feel about all this? Or is it a case of "life goes on"?
Good question. She's aware of my plans to move (She was aware even before we started dating), and she's happy I got into Drexel. As for what happens between us, I guess we'll just make the best of our time for now, and see how things stand when that day approaches. It's certainly something we'll have to talk about sooner or later.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Beware of the "Drexel Shaft."
Well, good luck in any event. As for long distance relationships, all I can say is been there, done that. Let's leave it at that.
Philly is a great place to live. Some affordable areas would be South Philly and some parts of Kensington between the El and the River. Housing overall is pretty cheap in Philly. And if you move there before November, you still have a chance to vote Ed Rendell into the governors office. He was probably the best mayor Philadelphia has ever had.
I think that Frank Rizzo was the best mayor.
And there are affordable areas in town. How about the area near the Frankfort terminal? Is that area still cheap?
Frank Rizzo did more harm for the city than good. Ed Rendell spent much of his administration correcting the Rizzo mistakes.
I lived at Trent Court (complex) in Lindenwold, NJ. It is five minutes from the PATCO station (Lindenwold). Back then the rent was cheap.
David,
Does that mean soon you are going to regale us with comparisons of the Philly system to the NYC system like you have been doing with Chicago?
Allan
P.S.- there are no comparisons to the NYC system.
You have that right! Philly's system and New York's are in completely different leagues. Such a comparison is superfluous.
But Philly is really too small for a system like New York's. I'd be happy if we just had something like DC...
Mark
In addition to comparing NYC's and Chicago's systems, I've also compared Boston's, Atlanta's, London's, and Washington's. I certainly have my personal preferences, but I don't think I've ever once come out and said that one is flat-out better than another. Each has its own positives and negatives, and each has something unique to contribute to our interest as railfans. (But since I live in Chicago and this board is dominated by New Yorkers, comparisons between our two systems are only natural.)
No offesne to Philly, but as for SEPTA, it's got a whopping two (count 'em) rapid transit lines, each with only one class of rolling stock. Comparing it to the vast NYC system would be like comparing a little storefront Gospel chapel to Westminster Abbey. You can find God in either of them, but they're at opposite ends of the spectrum.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"P.S.- there are no comparisons to the NYC system."
Sure you can!
In Taylor (ND) they have a horse fest every year, and there are two horse drawn buckboards with SUBWAY-like benches attached to them. There is a conductor that helps people board, and anounces where they are going. And up fron there is a guy who makes the horse go when the conductor gives hime the signal.
Beofre too long the horses get tired though, and so these are replaced with tractors.
Hey if you brought the (F) train into town, it would stick out of town at both ends! : )
Is it true they may get electricity in Taylor, ND sometime this year?
It would be time they gave the hamsters a rest. :-)
Congratulations, David!
If you're going to school at Drexel you really might want to consider the University City neighborhood in West Philly. Your commute would be incredibly short, and you could ride trolleys every day. But the the neighborhood has two bigger advantages:
1. It's a very good place for a newcomer to meet people and make connections in the city, seeing as lots of other people there are transplants as well.
2. It has a lot to offer in terms of counter-culture and intellectual stimulation. If that interests you, it's the place to be.
I moved there in January to be closer to my fiancee who is a UC dweller. I've enjoyed every minute of it and have no regrets whatsoever. I'm very thankful to my betrothed for bringing me to the place I should have moved to years ago.
Mark
Congratulations, David!
If you're going to school at Drexel you really might want to consider the University City neighborhood in West Philly. Your commute would be incredibly short, and you could ride trolleys every day. But the neighborhood has two bigger advantages:
1. It's a very good place for a newcomer to meet people and make connections in the city, seeing as lots of other people there are transplants as well.
2. It has a lot to offer in terms of counter-culture and intellectual stimulation. If that interests you, it's the place to be.
I moved there in January to be closer to my fiancée who is also a UC dweller. I've enjoyed every minute of it and have no regrets whatsoever. I'm very thankful to my betrothed for bringing me to the place I should have moved to years ago.
Mark
My grandfather and father grew up in Germantown, on Gorgas Lane nr. Germantown Depot. I'm not sure where Aldan Park is but I'd be very curious to know what that old neighborhood is like now... I haven't been down there in years.
Germantown is a so-so neighborhood, half of it is working class and somewhat decent, half of it is ghetto.
I'm not sure if Alden Park is actually within Germantown or not, but it's a large 1920's-vintage complex at Wissahickon Avenue and School House Lane. From what I understand, it's actually a landmark building. It's a bit on the pricey side for me, but it's in a good location (within a short walk of the Queen Lane station on the R8) and the floorplans and photos look very nice. (Here's the listing from Homestore.com)
There is, however, an active Episcopal church in Germantown (St. Luke's) that I'll probably check out as I search for a new church home in Philly, in addition to a few others.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Voorhees has some serious traffic problem as does Mt. Laurel. You would have to take either the Walt Whitman down through the I-295/I-76/I-676/North South Freeway mess then up to exit 32/34/36 on I-294 whose offramps frequently back up onto the freeway and finally you'd have to fight inundated local roads w/ traffic lighes every 5 feet. Of course if you not commuting during either of the two rush periods its generally ok. There is a great movie theatre near Voorhees if you're into that kind of thing.
Blackwood is a little south of me, it is accessable from either the Walt Whitman or Ben Franklin (via I-676) bridges and probably offers less of a driving headache than Voorhees/Mt. Laurel due to the ease of bridge access and many "sceret" freeway on-ramps known by the locals. Blackwood offers better railfannning than Voorhees/Mt. Laurel w/ the Conrail Beesley's Point Secondary and the Vineland Sec w/in easy driving distance.
If the Media Appartments are close to the R3 station, I would take those.
The place in Media was actually at the top of my list. It's within an easy walk of the R3 station, the floorplans are spacious and well-laid out, the apartments have all the features I want, and it looks like the surrounding area is rather nicely wooded.
But...
According to a few reviews on AptRatings.com, the complex is run by a bunch of incompetent and greedy slobs, cable TV isn't available, the parking lots and walkways never get plowed in the winter, and maintenance is sloppy. (Other than that, it's a nice place...) If it were just one former tenant that said that, then I might say it was a case of sour grapes. But when every review is pretty consistent, then I'm more wary.
I'll probably at least check it out and make up my own mind, though. Who knows... Maybe they'll get taken over by new management before I'm ready to move.
-- David
Chicago, IL
This will make two friends I have in Philadelphia so I will be glad to visit later in the year....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey good luck next year at Drexel, I just got accepted there myself for the Engineering Program.
I have some expierience with the Village Apartments, it was where my family stayed while house hunting after a move (oddly enough) from chicago in 1998. The Apartment we got was one bedroom, a sleeper sofa in the front hall/family/living room. The whole place seemed very nice and well kept, i would say it was about 10 years old, pretty usual, somewhat boring cookie cutter design. There were two pools, both rather nice.
The big selling point to the place would have to be it's proximity to everything. PATCO/NJT AC line is maybe a 1/2 mile south along Whitehorse Pike at Lindenwold. It's maybe 15 minutes to center city, another 5 minutes on a MFL train to 34th street and Drexel. The AC line is like 40 minutes to 30th street station, walk to Drexel from there. There also are several busses, but so far i haven't bothered with them.
In Vorhees, if you don't mind walking, a brand new Super G (grocery store) just went in north of the complex (maybe 3/4 mile). There are several restaurants in the area (lonestar, olive garden, typical of hotel/relocation apartment areas). The Camden county library (straight out of the seveties) is just behind the Village, and just past that is Eschelon mall, which is slowly dying.
Jersey Mike was right, cars are a bad idea in this area, even though you need one to get almost anywhere, pick the wrong time to go, and you won't be going anywhere. Traffic can be unbeliveable, so after 4 pm on weekdays, hoof it.
If you can live in Media, go for it, New Jersey sucks (no offense NJ), Media is infinitely more beautiful than New Jersey, I was just there and was almost happy to be lost. You have the choice of the R3 or Rt. 101 light rail, the Rt101 is rather slow, but really cool and senic and such, but it does drop you off at 69th Street Terminal, a 20 minute ride to Center city on the MFL. If you're running late, you can get off the R3 at 49th street, transfer to a Rt13 and ride that to 34th or 33th street (i can't remember which), you'll walk up the stairs like a block from the main auditorium for drexel. But there are better neighborhoods than the area around 49th street, and I wouldn't recomend this transfer after dark.
Just one last thing, how dare you say that Philadelphia only has two rapid transit lines, are you forgetting the PATCO, Rt100, Rt101, Rt102, the Sub Surface Trolleys, and maybe, depending upon your definition of Rapid Transit, the SNJLRTS. What these systems lack in length, they more than make up for in diversity when the Rt15 trolley gets up and going whenever it's supposed to, Philadelphia will have an operating PCC trolley again. I really enjoy the Septa system, more so than the NJT and PATCO system, which is rather easy to become bored of.
Thanks for the info about Philly, Media, and South Jersey. Right now I'm sort of leaning towards Alden Park (which I believe is actually in Mt. Airy as opposed to Germantown), but I haven't totally ruled out the other places either. And of course, it will all depend on what's available when I'm actually ready to move.
Just one last thing, how dare you say that Philadelphia only has two rapid transit lines, are you forgetting the PATCO, Rt100, Rt101, Rt102, the Sub Surface Trolleys, and maybe, depending upon your definition of Rapid Transit, the SNJLRTS.
Actually, I said SEPTA (not Philly in general) has only two rapid transit lines, and I was referring to heavy rail rapid transit (i.e., traditional subways or elevated lines), compared to New York's dozens. I wasn't really talking about light rail or commuter rail, but I should have been more clear about that. I'll concede that PATCO should have been considered a third rapid transit line.
But if you want to compare overall transit systems of the two metro areas, you'd also have to throw in PATH, HBLR, and Newark's subway, not to mention Metro North, LIRR, and NJT. Not to knock Philly (which indeed has a very diverse network), but I'd still argue that New York's is far more vast.
But like I said, each system has its own unique characteristics, and its own positives and negatives.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Philly needs more in the way of rapid transit.
The SAchuylkill Valley Metro, if built, will convert the R6 commuter rail line to a subway-like frequency. Also, there is a proposal to put a new subway under US 1 (Roosevelt Blvd) and extend the Market-Frankford line to meet it. That would give Philly a third subway (unless you consider the 8th-Market Broad-Ridge spur a line, in which case the new subway would be number 4).
Oh boy, oh boy, a posting about building new subway lines in Philadelphia...my favorite SubTalk topic!
If you count PATCO, you can say we have three rapid transit lines. The Roosevelt Boulevard subway would make four if it were built. This one is absolutely necessary, as NE Philly has more people than Pittsburgh, a third of the city's population, and no rapid transit.
I wish instead of the Schuylkill Valley Metro that they'd build two systems: a subway or elevated that ran from Center City to the Norristown/Conshohocken/King of Prussia area, and a good commuter line to serve the destinations between Norristown and Reading. That would give us five lines subway lines. The subway could also hit the art museum, the zoo, and Manayunk along the way.
But I think we need more than that. I think a line serving Germantown is necessary, too. Replacing either the R7 or R8 Chestnut Hill trains with rapid transit would be a good idea. That would give us six subway lines.
I'm not sure what else we need. I think the City Ave corridor needs some sort of service, too, but I'm not sureof the best way to do that.
Mark
Greetings anew to all. Although I haven't posted much in quite some time, I kept in touch with everybody through heavy lurking of both SubTalk before the hiatus and Harry's website during. I hope to become a more active participant in the future.
Anyway, what is the exact itinerary of the D-type trip on Memorial Day? Will it include any behind-the-scenes trackage similar to the SBK or Culver Express runs of the past? Is the trip sold out, or is there still time to squeeze two more tickets in?
It is different since it is leaving from Whitehall St. Past times it has left from Columbus Circle and over on the Eastern BMT.
I don't know where they will be going this time.
Well, one thing is almost a certainty. Since is departing at Whitehall, it will be going through that rotten rat infested Montague Tunnel. I do hope, however, that it emerges from the portal at 59th Street and takes the Sea Beach route to Coney Island. If they can also put a #4 on the Triplex that would be nostalgia plus and might even elicit a small bribe to the person responsible for this happy turn of events. How about that?
The flyer I received about the excursions, re: Monday, May 27
"Old Days on the BMT". >>>This special train will leave the
Whitehall Street Station [N and R lines] at 10:30am and will be
visiting the Franklin Ave. Shuttle, Brighton, Jamaica and
Cararsie lines.<<< May not even venture to Coney Island as per
above. Twice thru the Montague Street Tunnel. Interesting.
=:), Sparky
Uh-oh, Fred's bound to be mad.:-(
Such is life. I don't think you can now go from Stillwell to the
Sea Beach. If it was, then we could recreate the "Franklin~Nassau
Express" via Brigton & Sea Beach to Chambers with the "D" types.
:)Sparky
The tracks are still there -- W trains use them on frequent GO's, and N trains use them when W service is cancelled.
The only reason the N doesn't normally run through to Stillwell anymore is that it lost its platform and it would have to share a platform with the W. (I don't see why it couldn't be done on weekends, at least, but it isn't.)
My question is, besides the lose of the platform at Stillwell for
the Sea Beach, is the track that connected the Sea Beach with the
Brigton still in service? It was the most eastern track on the
upper level, that was assigned to "Franklin~Nassau" expresses when
operated in the thirties, they ran thru Coney Island to/from
Chambers Street.
To clarify is there a usable connecting track at Stillwell between
the "Q" & "N" on southend?
:) Sparky
There *has* to be - otherwise, where do all the nighttime Q express layups go when they reach Brighton Beach?
--Mark
The Brighton is connected to track 2 now at Stillwell. Track 1 has been demolished completely along with the whole N platform. Track 2 is used for putins and layups for the .
Thanks Mark,
You clarified a lot for this "Street Car Fanatic", track number, etc.
The (Q) platform on tracks 3 & 4, which also run thru to the North?
:) Sparky
I don't think they used Triplexes all that much on the Franklin-Nassau specials. BMT standards held center stage there.
>>>I don't think they used Triplexes all that much on the Franklin-Nassau specials. BMT standards held center stage there.<<<
Since this service is more likely senior to us in years and this is
strictly from memory. I vaguely recall a route sign on the side of
the "D" types entitled 'Coney Island Express', plus all the other
BMT Southern Division Subway Lines. I know on the Standards it was
called 'Franklin-Nassau', but haven't seen that on a "D" type route curtain.
Possible could be for same service but never operated with the "D" type cars.
Before my time, it was speculative of me.
:) Sparky
AFAIK the Triplexes did indeed have "Coney Island Express" side route signs in case they were used on the Franklin-Nassau Special.
"It is different since it is leaving from Whitehall St. Past times it has left from Columbus Circle and over on the Eastern BMT"
It has started from Whitehall Street in the past.
I was on the "South Brooklyn RY. Special" (9/29/75) with this very train:
"South Brooklyn Railway crew, with pilot, will operate lite from 36th. Steet yard to Whitehall Street (track B3-4) where the group will entrain. At 10:00 AM on orders of the Division "B-1" Desk Trainmaster, the special train will operate to 36th Street Yard..."
-Larry
The train is doing the Frankin Shuttle TWICE as a photo op, so if you missed out on getting tickets, at least you can photo the set on in the system.
Mr rt :^)
The (formerly Camden, now South Jersey) Courier-Post last Thursday ran an article about railroad history and the NRHS that quoted me rather accurately, mainly because the writer spoke at length to the Chapter Historian, who straightened out her notes from her previous interviews.
Courier-Post article
Bob,
Congrats.
Allan
Congradulations, Bob.
Chaohwa
Congrats! Of course <ego masturbation mode> I've done it multiple times...ok, twice.
http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/SIAdvance3-6-02.jpg
http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/dailynewsphoto8-8-01.JPG
-Hank
I got a photo in the campus newspaper of a student being arrested.
>>>...of a student being arrested.<<<
WAS it YOU? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
How would I take a picture of myself being arrested? Police generally handcuff suspects.
Hank ... for a minute I didn't realize you were the photographer and thought the headline about the torched Bungalow was something you were involved with :) Whew!
--Mark
Nah, I don't do that sort of thing...anymore.
-Hank :)
You just so happened to be there when the fire started, right?
*suspicious look*
just kidding
Actually, I was at my dad's office when the Satellite went by, and that's when I took off after it. (The Satellite is a unit with a large amount of hose, used at multiple alarm fires and where long hose stretches are required. They used to be called 'hose wagons', and are the last remaining part of the old 'Super Pumper' system, which was retired in the 70s.)
-Hank
CONGRATS, chuchubob. Interesting article.
Peace,
ANDROO
LOL
Thanks, ANDROOO, and Allan and Chaohua!
I also wondered whether J.M.'s published photo was a self-portrait.
Congrats Bob
Early last year, I read on the MTA's website about the MN Harlem Line's third track project between Mount Vernon West and Crestwood (or further north). I got to see the project in action earlier this month when I went with a few church companions of mine's to Mount Kisco. It looks like the project is still in its opening stages because the work is still in the vicinity of Mount Vernon West. Anyone doing railfanning or commuting on the Harlem line can expect weekend delays for awhile, because the service pattern leaves the line with one track only from Mount Vernon West to Hartsdale.
I also did say that we went up to Mount Kisco. I found it hard to believe that, with the scenery in the area, the line is actually electrified at all, much less for almost twenty years. I found it even harder to believe that there are still grade crossings on the line, some of which are very near the Saw Mill Parkway. Nevertheless, there is also trackwork being done on this stretch of line (this one I don't know too much about. If anyone can fill me in on this I'd appreciate it).
One day last week as i was coming to the city on the L line from Canarsie it left Rockaway Parkway late that the train made all stops to Broadway Junction then operated express to Lorimer Street with a stop at Myrtle Avenue.
Thank You
Sounds like this train was behind schedule and skip stops to make up the time.
I have been on L trains that have doon that between Lorimer an Myrtle. I think they do that when they do run behind occasionally.
The L line lost it's magic the day I left it! :-)
-Mark
Yeah, but the TSS's over there are breathing a sigh of relief! ;-D
Unless I come over there.
Hey, Dave, don't get me started....LOL!
> The L line lost it's magic the day I left it!
How so?
- Lyle Goldman
> The L line lost it's magic the day I left it!
How so?
- Lyle Goldman
Sorry for posting twice. I don't know how that happened.
- Lyle Goldman
Actually, the "L" lost its magic when they got rid of the Standards!!!
By the way Mark, have you done any apprenticeships yet?
Hey Sarge, the Standards, NAH! The BMT "13" & "16" were the home of
the Multi's. They were unique. You couldn't do 14th Street~Fulton
with Standards. The Standards filled the gap as 14th Street locals
from Myrtle to 8th Avenue in Peak Service. >G<
:)Sparky
I breathed a sigh of relief in 1969 when the BMT standards finally left the Canarsie line. That was then; this is now.
During the afternoon of 5/15/02, a Canarise bound L train at Halsey St. consisting of cars 8104/3/2/1 and 8108/7/6/5 struck a male passenger who either fell of jumped onto the roadbed. To our knowledge, this is the first 12-9 involving an R143.
See, people are willing to die in protest!:-)
12-9's on the No.6 Line seem to gone up since the R142A's.
Glad to be back in the house that Pirmann built.
The 2002 Model Trolley & Transit Show
Presented by the NYC Model Transit Association &
Saint Augustine of Canterbury School
See models of NYC Transit equipment of all scales, model trolleys from around the country, operating layouts,
model dealers and manufacturers, memorabilia tables, books, photos
and much more!
The theme for this event will be "Farewell to the Redbirds". Models, photos, books, videos and even a souvenir coffee mug featuring these cars will be available!
Friday, May 31 - 3pm till 10pm (for set up only)
Saturday, June 1 - 9am till 5pm
At-
St. Augustine of Canterbury School
45 Henderson Road
Kendall Park, NJ 08824
Admission - $10 per family
Dealer Tables - $30 per table
Please see our website for more details & photos, at -
http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm
-Steve Olsen
See you there!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've noticed that they were puting up sections of support up at Dekalb Ave between the tunnel track(R/M/N) and the super express track(W). They are filling in the gap that used to be a crossover before the station was lengthened.
My question is, does anyone know if this is being done for structural integrity, or for simple cosmetic reasons during the station renovation?
JDL
They are probably extending the curtain wall to make the rehab look better.
Is there an upcoming renovation scheduled for DeKalb Avenue? Does anyone have any specific plans?
- Lyle Goldman
Besides the one that's going on as we speak, er, write?
David
Yup. All the old original tilework from the curtain wall that seperates the bypass and tunnel tracks has been recently removed, so I'm guessing it's going to be replaced.
I hope so, but what about the tiles on the outer walls? What are they going to do with those?
- Lyle Goldman
Cover them up, like they do at other stations that are being rehabbed.
I'm not sure about DeKalb but if you take it one stop over to Atlantic Avenue, the Q platform is looking nicer and nicer everyday. Flourescent lighting is up and a set of tiles it up at the front of the northbound track wall.
I noticed that too... it might be for sound proofing, if they still haven't gone past 5' from the ground that may be the case... I hope they don't block it up, I like being able to see all the trains I'm missing and are getting in front of me on the bridge/4th ave exp!
And it will be really annoying if/when we get back both a Broadway and 6th ave service using the bypass... what did we miss?
May be the large 75 footers. Well, may be some slants in the mix too.
I think they're putting up a curtain wall there. They'll probably do the same thing on the other side.
wayne
I live in Queens. My wife and I were planning to go to Atlantic City Memorial Day Weekend, but I will have to work Friday. She wants to pick me up at my job in Manhattan, but really---BAD IDEA!!!!!!! Traffic is bad everywhere on that Friday, but you really don't want to be leaving Manhattan. So I thought maybe I would take the ferry over Staten Island and she could pick me up there.
So the upshoot is...
I haven't been at the St. George terminal since like 1988, and I really don't remember it. Is it a safe place for her to wait for me? Any vendors? Coffee? Magazine? Anywhere to park?
Thank you.
:-) Andrew
I don't know about St. George. I would recommend Metropark in Iselin. By the afternoon some commuters will have gone home and there will be parking spaces close in to the train station. Just agree where you'll meet (e.g., at the ticket booth).
And it's an easy connection to/from the Garden State parkway.
It is pretty safe, and there's a McDonalds and Dunkin Donuts in there.
I think the Dunkin Donuts is gone. :(
Last I saw it was a little cart outside the "fare control" area... are you sure? If so this sucks. I don't want to spend $1 for a stale donut on the ferry when I could spend 75¢ for a less stale one at DD!
Uhm...they're the same bad donuts. The concessionaire for the boats is the same one for the Dunkin Donuts in the SI Terminal.
-Hank
Hey guys! I am glad that Subtalk is back. Now lets all behave, so that Subtalk will stay here. It is the greatest chat room and my main source for up to the minute happenings on subways everywhere especially in NYC. So let's behave.
I love the feature on international systems. What is missing is Tokyo subway pictures. Does anyone have any Tokyo pictures to contribute?
Can anyone tell me where the Newark PCC's have ended up. It would be greatif a couple could find their way over here perhaps Manchester.
Simon
Swindon UK
I BELIEVE that they are still on NJTransit property.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks.
Would you know if it is possible to go and see them, take photos etc?
Simon
Swindon UK
One went to Shore Line Trolley Museum; one went to San Francisco Muni (who sent two Boeing LRVs to Manchester). The rest are still up in the new yard at the north end of the subway extension. There's some pics on the site of the yard lineup.
I was under the impression that the one that went to BERA (#27). Did not come directly from Newark.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's correct. It is an original (unrebuilt) that went from Minneapolis to Newark to Shaker Heights to Minneapolis again and finally to BERA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A-N-D she lives again .... after many years in storage (under a bag outside) she operates again do to a big effort by many hands at Branford.
#27 & #1001 were both part of Member's Day at Branford & this writer was given the privlidge of a trip down the line in the front seat.
Now that most of the mechanical work has been completed the staff's attention is turning to her structural needs, e.g. our Curator replaced one of the plastic windows with glass (the screws that hold the sash togather had to be chiseled off very carefully so as not to damage the stainless steel frame).
BTW, I've heard that more them one Newark PCC is/has gone to San Fran
Mr rt :^)
At least one went to San Francisco.
A recent report had 8 more going to MUNI, but I don't remember where the info came from. With the possibility of most going west.
If anyone else knows if this is true, please post it.
My suspicion is that it is true, as NJT isn't running a used streetcar lot, and none of the proposed heritage lines in NJ are 10 or more years away. The cars are not going to rot for 10 years.
Dan, word on the street is that none of the Newark PCCs
will be made available to museums outside of NJ. A bunch
are expected to go to Muni, the rest will be kept in NJ for
the museum at Philipsburg and for possible future heritage
operations.
Since word on the street is notorious for being wrong, I suspect that all but 4 or 5 will go west. None of the proposed heritage operations are anywhere close to start up, most seem to be 10 or more years away and NJT isn't going to store the cars that long - NJT is not running a used streetcar lot. Philipsburg is a possibility, and NJT is keeping a couple for "historical reasons".
Muni is so desparate for cars for F-Market - Embarkadero that they grabbed two 4000's from PAT and were actually considering rebuilding 10 or more of the hulks that have been rotting on the pier since 1980 at a cost estimated at over 1 million per car. That was with MSRy doing a lot of the finish work.
14 already went west, I heard 8 more cars were going. 14 was run all over the system for clearance tests and performed splendedly.
This is one of the best "watch and see" things in a long time.
I had posted a while back on Harry's board that this sounded a lot like what happened in 1963 and 64 with the SLPS cars that were leased at first, then purchased when Bi-State took SLPS and was getting out of the streetcar business. To qoute Yogi Berra, this is "deja vu all over again"
I suspect that all but 4 or 5 will go west
That's about the number that I've heard.
Another key point is that the cars going to San Fran are "loaned" to them. Maybe they will stay there for the rest of their days or maybe they'll return to NJ some day.
Mr rt :^)
I heard it's a lease - just like when MUNI got the 1100's from St. Louis. When the cars went, they were leased from SLPS, but in 1964 Bi-State took SLPS. They were getting out of the streetcar business, so the lease became an outright sale - Bi-State didn't want them back.
I suspect the same thing will happen with the Newark cars. When NJT decides that there's no revenue future in New Jersey, the lease will become a sale.
Besides, nobody would loan equipment for a long period - how much money would NJT have to put into the cars after MUNI runs them for 8 to 10 years?
As I said before - none of the proposed heritage operations in NJ are 10 years or more before the lines operate. NJT is not running a used streetcar lot and it costs money to store them, plus a new storage facilty would have to be built - the cars just can't sit outside the shop for 10 or more years.
One person was killed and another seriously injured on the tube today.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/html/news.html
Apparently the two were larking around and one fell under a train whicht the other was seriously injured. Very sad.
Simon
Swindon UK
Indeed very sad. But it happens on the Tube in New York City also. Sometimes people do not understand how dangerious it is.
The Southbound (Manhattan-bound) platforms at Halsey St on the J and at Hewes St on the J/M will be closed 24 hours a day beginning on Monday, May 20 and will reopen on August 19.
Just so you know.
It's about time.
I've got to admit, Hewes Street is in bad shape. I was able to see the street below through the cracks in the platform there. Scary stuff.
I'll keep that in mind should I get assigned to work over there. Not that I would consciously take a job there.
GLAD that I don't live there.
Peace,
ANDEE
Question- last year they also closed the Queens Bound platforms at Flushing and Koscisuzko. WHy did they decide to do only two- will they still do the last two.
I think Hewes and Lorimer were also closed on the Queens bound side and redone already. I would assume they will do all of them little by little. Are they also going to redo any of the M line platforms. Fresh Pond was done a few years ago, and I know Wyckoff is in line for rehab. What about the others?
They should close Hewes and Lorimer permanently and open a new station above the Crosstown Line's Broadway Station.
That idea has merit -- I've advocated it for years -- but it's not going to happen.
David
Would there be room to convert the line to four tracks in the process?
I don't think there would be room for a 4th track, the el is pretty close to the buildings. In addition the whole el would have to be reconfigured, even if there was enough room, because there is no room on just one side of the el to just add a track.
>>Would there be room to convert the line to four tracks in the process?<<
Not unless hoardes of nearby buildings were demolished to make room.
History note - The Broadway "el" was constructed as a two track structure but by the time after the turn of the century (19-20th), a third track was added. If you walk under the "el" at Marcy Ave and look up, you'll notice that the original girders are smaller and the girders for the center track is larger indeed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Damn! So even double decking isn't feasible!
>>Damn! So even double decking isn't feasible!<<
These days nothing to that grand scale is feasible. Whether you widen or double deck the Broadway (Brooklyn) "el", the cost involved would not be cost effective. Same goes for a subway to replace the "el"
Right now, it seems that the best way is to have express service in the durection of peak travel. The #7, #6 and the #2 7 5 have it.
Bill "Newkirk"
These days nothing to that grand scale is feasible.
Why was it ever?
>>Why was it ever?<<
One word.....MONEY
If there was an infinite source money, they would spend it. Unfortunately, that's not the case. It's taken us some 80 years to build the Second Ave subway, they seem serious about it. Hope this helps.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well on those terms there evidently was a lot more money when the Subways were built. Where did it come from? Where did that source disappear? Or is it just that modern construction is financially wasteful?
I don't know exactly where the money came from when the first subways were built. But we all know that the IND subway was built during the depression when jobs were scarce and this was the perfect way to put New York back to work.
After the IND was built, things slowed down as far as subway construction went. Any subways were connectors and not major trunk lines. "el"s that were old and seen as blight and money losers were demolished and not replaced.
Nowadays, building any subway line, including the Second Ave route costs much more than the first subway lines after the turn of the century. Try building the first IRT subway line of 1904 from City Hall to 145th St. It would take more than four years and cost billions of dollars. Things are much different now than one hundred years ago and money for subway construction is one of them !
Bill "Newkirk"
To build the Dual Contracts lines, the City of New York increased its debt limit and the private companies at the time (IRT & BRT) also built some lines and improved other lines at their own expense. The private companies felt that there were profits to be made by making new routes available. There also wasn't any competition against the automobile.
Nowadays, rapid transit is most often a money-losing proposition.
--Mark
Nowadays, rapid transit is most often a money-losing proposition.
That is true. However, road maintenence and construction is a money loosing proposition also, and billions are spent on that each year also.
One major reason is that in 1904 a subway construction worker was paid a barely living wage. Now such a worker is considerably more middle class. I'm not saying this is bad; it's just different, and it makes major projects much harder to do.
The Broadway el was upgraded in 1916. The original columns were in the street while the new ones were placed along the sidewalk.
Absolutely. Why rebuild two rickety el stations when one entirely new, ADA-compliant one would probably not cost that much more. A direct transfer into the G-line makes compelling sense. Done right, they would only need one booth attendant, instead of the present three. The personnel savings would probably eventually make up for the cost differential.
Agreed. Hewes is very close to Marcy anyway. A new "Union Ave" station between Flushing & Marcy would make sense.
It's been a really really long time since i last posted. I'm surprised my handle is still registered. Anyway, technically, what is the southern terminal for the N? I noticed that there were train crew switches on the southbound side. Does the new crew turn the train back at 86 and continue northwards or do they just bring it back to Kings Highway?
--Kenny
The Southbound N crew from Astoria brings the train to Kings Hwy then gets off. A new crew then gets on, brings it to 86 St (terminal), then relays the train with the help of a switchman and brings it back to Astoria.
The South bound terminal is Kings Hwy unless the W is not running then the N goes to Stillwell on the W platform.
Is there still a physical track connection at Stillwell on the southend from the "N" to the "Q"?
>>Is there still a physical track connection at Stillwell on the southend from the "N" to the "Q"?<<
Yes, but the connection now is with Track #7 and not Track #8. Track #7 is used as a bypass during the demolition of the Sea Beach platforms. The Track #8 roadbed is gone, all concrete has been removed and steel girders and stringers are being removed during demolition.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's backwards. The Sea Beach tracks are #1 and #2, not #7 and #8, which are the West End tracks.
From lowest number to highest:
1/2: Sea Beach
3/4: Brighton
5/6: Culver
7/8: West End
Track #1 is presently gone. The track that currently allows Brighton trains to travel to/from Coney Island Yard is #2.
David
>>That's backwards. The Sea Beach tracks are #1 and #2, not #7 and #8, which are the West End tracks<<
DAMN DYSLEXIA !!
Bill "Newkirk"
When the rehab is complete, where will the new bypass track (for Q train yard moves) be -- between 2 and 3 or past 1 (or elsewhere)? Will the other tracks be renumbered?
Past 1. In fact, that's why they have to do the whole demolition and rebuilding. They could have added the new track beside the existing structure, but at some point it would have been on PSE&G property, and they wouldn't give the land up, so now they have to squeeze the additional track into the existing ROW.
PSE&G? Did Stillwell Terminal move to New Jersey?
David
Whatever the utility facility over there is.
It will be TRACK Zero but I'm sure everything will be renumberd to keep a standard leval of TA confusion.
As far as passengers are concerned, the south terminal on the N is 86th Street. The signs on some of the trains show Kings Highway because 86th Street isn't on all the rolls.
I thought I saw one car class with a few roll signs saying 86 street, am I mistaken?????
I thought I saw one car class with a few roll signs saying 86 street, am I mistaken?????
That would be the R-68s.
--Kenny
Hey guys, let me see if I get this straight. The Sea Beach was once an express, but it now a local. The Sea Beach used to regularly go over the Manny B but does so only late at night. The Sea Beach used to go to Coney Island but now terminates at Kings Highway or 86th Street or wherever. And some of you still have the bald faced nerve to tell me that my Sea Beach hasn't been ripped off the past decade or so? That's really priceless.
not to mention the fact that while the N train gets a taste of new cars for a while, it seems that the line eventually reverts to the older r models (32/40). go figure.
it seems that the line eventually reverts to the older r models (32/40). go figure.
That's good or bad depending on how you look at it.
That's bad. As the L line gets R143's, at a certain point the south will get ENY cars. I feel sorry for the N line if they get the CI rebuilt R42 4840 to 4949 series. Those cars are rags.
I hope we get R32s... somehow... :D
Yeah, the R42 CI's weren't made with the best parts, but they still have a bit of a homely feel to them. At least you cannot say that the brake valve is difficult to manipulate, and you can definitely feel the HVAC working.
That's all when you don't mention the appearance of the stations.
But they're renovating the Manhattan local stations now, they're nearing completion and look good. These are stations that the N shouldn't be using in the first place!
Oh? And why not? What stations should be be using anyway?
So you think the N should stop at Prince, 8th, 23rd and 28th? That's the first time I've heard you say that.
I think Fred means the N should use Canal St., Union Square, 34th St., and Times Square. Nothing else.
That's it Steve. Thanks for straightening Americano Piggo out. I think he did know what I meant but, hey, Pig likes to stir things up and I enjoy reading his retorts.
I can also add 57th St. if you'd like.:-)
>>>>>>>The Sea Beach used to regularly go over the Manny B but does so only late at night.
Hate to rile you up a little more, but now the N never goes over the Man. Br.
And the N does indeed terminate at 86th Street. It only changes crews at Kings Hwy.
Either an R68 or an R68A with a new sign installed on it would be able to display "Brooklyn-86 Street".
I haven't been there since, but Essex Street is under rehab currently. Does anyone know if they will be putting up a wall with tiles along the old trolly station. I'd hate to see the view of the old station go, but it would improve the overall appearance of the station.
How about putting some trolleys there? That would really improve the overall appearance.
Yeah, that would be really great, sadly that will probably never happen.
It might do if you decided to call them LRVs!
Anybody have pics of the old station in service.
I think installing LRVs to replace busses in outlying areas is an idea with merit. Like a Pelham Parkway LR.
Will Amtrak be getting any new Passenger Cars anytime soon, after their money problem is over? If so , I hope it's Passenger Cars that look similar to the Acela Passenger Cars.
"after their money problem is over? "
Greetings Martian!
This is planet Earth....
and it is not likely that their money problems will *ever* be over!
So yes they will get new equipment *sometime* *somehow*
But it will be a cold day on planet Mercury when their budget problems will be over.
Or perhaps in a few months we could vote for the "other guy" in your district ... whatever party's in power in YOUR location, vote for the other guy. Might get their attention if they have to find a new job.
Buying Superliner coaches is more urgent than your beloved Acela coaches. They are decimated by recent derailments.
Chaohwa
Of course, if superliners weren't so prone to flipping and flying at the slightest provocation....
I'm guessing that at some point in time, the NTSB, etc is going to research this and find the center of gravity on the superliners is somewhat higher than most other cars. Same reason why SUVs flip over so easy.
Its better than getting a that oh so great view of the ballast like you do in European/Cascades coaches.
>>>...after their money problem is over? <<<
HAHAHA
If you post the same question the Amtrak forum at railroad.net or trainorders.com, I am wondering what the answers are.
Chaohwa
I suspect the first answer would be that there are 89 Amtrak passenger cars stored at Beech Grove in need of repair that are not scheduled for repair because there is no money and the technicians have been laid off, so talk of new cars would be meaningless.
I don't think so.
Amtraks' budget problems are so severe that it doesn't look like they will EVER get new equipment!!! And with all the unfortunate accidents, there is so much equipment out of service at Beech grove that if they have one more wreck they will have to cancel service somewhere.
They actualyl DID get new equipment within the last two years, but they did not look anything like the Acela, except maybe for the blue paint!!!
The new equipment? The Pacific Surfliner cars out in California. There were originally eight five-car sets built (cab-baggage-coach, coach, coach, food service, business class). One set was wrecked and the cab-baggage-coach was damaged beyond repair. Additional cars were ordered and put into service in late 2001, including a replacememnt for the wrecked car #6900. In the additional car order were some painted "California Amtrak" to match those slightly older AC cars in use in northern California.
I rode this newly rebuilt car on Tuesday for the first time, and it was the best ride on the Mattapan line that I ever had!! The ride was smooth; very little friction. I graduate on Sunday and head back to CT on Monday..so it was nice to have one final hurrah. Just maybe the new rebuilders won't do a bad job after all? -Nick
P.S.: WOOHOO...We're back!!! :-)
The PCCs are being rebuilt by the MBTA -- no contractors here! "Native craftsman, skilled in their work." A Seashore colleague was project manager for this until he retired last year. But they continue to do a great job keeping these gems going!
My apologies if this was answered already, but I didn't spend much time on the alternative boards. The 5.1 earthquake's epicenter was in upstate NY, in the same town that Bombardier is in. Was the plant damaged, and were any R142 cars effected? -Nick
I guess judging by the composite views of most people that the earthquake probably improved Bombardier's quality control somewhat :)
--Mark
A 5.1 quake at that depth would hardly rattle the windows.
you weren't there were you? My house was shaking so bad,I thought someone picked up my house and tossed it around like it was a ball. you had to be there,man....
Heh. Over here in V'ville, woke up to the bedroom door banging like the cops were on the other side of it. Thought I had missed out on a really good date. Betcha the battery compartment bolts on the cars waiting to be delivered will show up nice and tight. :)
you know im right up the road from you[WE BE UPSTATERS]so you know what im talkin bout,kirk!!!!!
Heh. Saddest part was the wife and I both woke up to the door rattling to beat the band, turned to the wife and said "earthquake" and we both went back to sleep. When a "3" happens downstate, it's in the news for weeks even if nobody felt it. Up here, the annual earthquake is a yawner. This one was a bit more impressive than usual though but we're used to them. Funny how nobody can find any fault lines up here ... well, you know how it is with the annual Schoharie or Montreal earthquakes ... yawn. :)
Chris,
Damage to roadways and other places was reported in the Plattsburgh area, and the other posters who were there speak for themselves. -Nick
I was being somewhat sarcastic. From the news accounts I've read, no meaningful damage was reported. A 5.1 quake would have hardly been noticed in southern California.
True, a 5.1 earthquake would be nothing in California, so I do understand your sarcasm. However, it was sort of a big deal here, and since damage was reported in Plattsburgh..this thread seemed appropriate. -Nick
Heh. SCREW the earthquake, we've got about 3 inches of SNOW on the ground up here now, forecasts warn of 6 inches. In frigging MAY fer krissakes ... anybody in the mood for SKIING? :)
In all sincerity since a satellite dish cleaning was in order, did some cross-country skiing myself this morning ... heh. Never a dull moment in upstate Noo Yawk ...
Well ... update ... appears we've become a "disaster area" with thousands of trees down, no power (we make our own here so loss of the "regulated power company" is something we don't notice) and all sorts of closed roads because foliage was out and trees are down.
4 inches and counting, coming down like no tomorrow. Heh. Anybody up for a ski trip? Sheesh.
Must be the same snow we had last week.
I've been in North Dakota since '83, and this was the first time we has snow in May.
We didn't have any trees go down, but then I can't really say that he have any trees anyway.
Elias
Pretty impressive so far (visited the NOAA doppler site and it's almost over) but the missus is just plain flipping out here. I kinda think it's PRETTY but then again, that's a "prohibited thought" in this house. Then again, I think R1/9's were pretty so no accounting for taste. :)
Weather Channel is showing right now our little "zone" as a white circle of nasty precipitation ... Smallbany gets blizzard, who cares? Heh.
"Smallbany gets blizzard, who cares? Heh. "
Shutdown state govt for a week, and maybe you can get some things done, eh?
Elias
The budget was 46 days late ... a week is NOTHING to these swine. I say shut it down entirely. Ideally, they should do state government in New York like the election of a pope with a variation. Brick the phuckers into the building, no potty breaks, issue each "legislator" a 4x5 index card upon which they can write any bill they want. Give them a crayon. They can trade crayons and index cards all they want, but only one of each to a legislator.
They then are given 24 hours to do whatever needs to be done PER YEAR and that's it. No budget, they can't come out for a year. They're limited only to the bills that are written and approve on those index cards. They run out, TS ... they can rot for a year. Betcha things would change and would get done. :)
Our legislature meets only every other year, and then for only 30 to 45 days. No index cards, but they do have laptops.
Hey... these guys gotta be DONE! before it is time to start spring planting (oh yeah... did I tell you that they *work* for a living?)
Pork has a different meaning out here! It's what is for Breakfast!
Elias
Not to sound selfish or anything, but it's good for our water supply down here.
Absolutely ... and in fact things like this are amusing to me. If something like this were to have happened downstate, they'd have declared martial law. Up here, it means fire up the generator. But we cool. :)
Snow... nasty white stuff... similar to some nasty brown stuff whose name also begins with "s"... we even had a few snow flurries on the 11 AM trip at Branford yesterday. But mostly just torrential rain until early afternoon. I got absolutely soaked when we were bringing the cars out of the barn! Fortunately, I had company on my runs (either Thurston or Sparky) and they had ponchos so they swapped the poles at Short Beach and Sprague while I tended to our revenue passengers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wet transit worker. Ewwwww. :)
Nothing like a damp rope on a live pole.
If the crane was out, you'd have to pull the plug in the "bathtub"
BTW, how were the signals behaving with such low ballast resistance?
No problem with the signals... despite the extreme dampness (and water completely covering the single-point switch by the shack at Farm River Road) they held true. We never had more than one car out on the line to Short Beach at a time so I didn't have to deal with setting the call-on and its flickering. Whatever crew is responsible for cutting the foliage back along the line needs to do some trimming around 22W though... it played peek-a-boo with me all the way up the straigtaway past the picnic grove. 2001 was a real pain on the wet rail too... 357 and 629 behaved much better. We didn't run 775 down the line at all and of course 4573 stayed put inside the barn, nice and dry. Weather got a lot nicer in the afternoon and we got fairly busy; the 4:30 tour could have stayed home, though, as far as I was concerned. But that comes with the territory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW, how were the signals behaving with such low ballast resistance?
Once we have signals every 250' feet, ballast resistance
won't be a factor.
And stop looking ahead in the textbook, maintainer apprentice,
ballast resistance is in Chapter 12, but
we're only in Chapter 1: "It is well known that all matter consists
of but four elements, viz, earth, water, air and fire".
Students, cross that out and correct it. It is know known beyond
a shadow of a doubt that the four elements are "caffeine,
alchohol, nicotine and sugar".
Atta boy! Those four elements would get you a job HERE too. :)
I knew there was something missing from my diet. I guess I'll go buy a pack of Marlboro's posthaste.
-- I thought track circuits were chapter one, being one of the "basic elements" of railway signalling...
Other wise every other line would be :(see chapter 12)
Heh. Proper track circuitry is mainly the result of proper grounding and return paths. When moisture makes a difference, tells you there's excessive resistance in the ground path on a DRY day. Shows that one of the food groups is missing, SALT. :)
The day before a game my coach told us to stay away from the 3 W's.
Wine, Woman & Weed.
<< . It is know known beyond a shadow of a doubt that the four elements are "caffeine, alchohol, nicotine and sugar". >>
Hmmm...you've got two of the four. The "correct" four elements are caffeine, nicotine, salt, and grease.
We got snow in Denver last year on May 20. It's so dry out here now we'll take any precip in any form.
They will only use it as a excuse for their crap.
Boy! You guys are ruff.... don't ever become a Judge.
I've heard rumors that some R142 or R142A cars will be headed to the #4 at some poin. Anyone know if this is true, and maybe when this will happen (like before or after the option order arrives)? I can invision a new logo for the 2002 Subway Series...and R142 car with the #4, and an R62A for the #7! -Nick
R142As will go to #4 soon.
Chaohwa
the MTA has ordered 450 new car like the the R142 order.....they are suppose to be heading for the 3 and 4 lines..... check the MTA site for futher info....
where is this on the mta website
I can't say the 4 but I am 100% sure the 3 will never see any R142's until the R62 leaves
Until they leave what?
The latest word I've heard is that the 3 will get a full fleet of R-142's, probably after the 5.
Where else would the 7 get its R-62A's from? There weren't enough on the 6 to fill up the 7, the 4 is keeping its R-62's and is only replacing its Redbirds with R-142A's, and the 2 and 5 only had Redbirds to begin with.
Your currect here is the Car Assignments.
No.1 Line: R62A's
No.2,3,5 Lines: full fleet of R142's
No.4 Line: R62,R62A Singles, R142A's
No.6 Line: R142A
No.7 Line: R62A
GCS Line: R62A singles from No.4 Line
Will the 4 have only enough R-62A singles to fill the shuttle (i.e., they'd belong to the 4 only in name)? Otherwise I don't see the point.
I had the same question, what is the point of singles on the 4, if not for the shuttle.
This is confirmed. The R-142As are slated for #4 service, Cars #7651-7730.
-Stef
Will the R-160 be equipped with CBTC just like the R-143's? I'm thinking that the R-160 hasn't came in yet, because if the MTA is planning to install CBTC into the R-160's then maybe they are waiting to see if the CBTC with the R-143's work out.
-AcelaExpress2005
it all depends if it works on the L
it will have cbtc but wont work until the line is readyed for it
how many are there
r142man
Last I remember 2
The 5 line has about 4-5 trains assigned to the 5 line, about 1-2 of them running, matter of fact, I caught one today...6856-6865
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Well I think 5 sets and more to come. I work the No.5 most of the time so I'll keep you updated.
This am there was a 12-9 at 42nd and 8th. According to WCBS AM, the person was crushed.
Not true. The person's body was somewhat intact. Apparently she (it was a woman) came in contact with the third rail and was electrocuted. Fifteen feet of the protection board had to be cut in order to free the body.
To add more to the bleeding, around 5pm, ALL Manhattan Bound E F R and V trains were making LOCAL stops from Continental Ave-Queens Plaza due to a broken rail past 65 St on the Manhattan Bound Express Track. I was on car 3575 headed to Northern at the time. When I pulled into Roosevelt Ave Station, another E was right across the platform. 3575 went from packed to empty b/c the other E left 1st. I stayed on 3575 and saw the workers looking at the rail past 65 St.
The train was moving at a crawl.
Bad day for the E-INDEED!
#3574 E Queens Blvd 8 Ave
I have no idea why people even do this. I understand suicide and everything, but why do I think they do this also for the attraction? Look at all these delays and such. Thanks to a person jumping onto the tracks, they wreak normal commute for everyone!
I'm no physcologist, but I have to feel suicide is often times a passive aggressive act. "I'll show you how much you'll miss me". So it would figure the subway train method would ensure maximum publicity. But obivisously when one does this or comtemplates doing it, they are not in their right mind, so it may be impossible to come up with a reason.
If I was ever of a mind to do it, I would think I would go for the most pain free method, maybe an OD of sleeping pills or something along those lines.
Most of the suicides that I have attended went for a gunshot. One did exhaust in the garage, and one kid (14) hung himself in the barn with a rope.
The last gunshot I was at was a 16 year old who was cleaning his rifle, but failed to start at the breach. That one was ruled accidental: he ran up the stairs calling for his mother, but died there. Learning curve can be a little steap at times.
12-6 is a pretty easy way out: it's quick and usually certain. You might get splattered all over the place, but you won't feel it.
That's not how it's usually done in NYC and environs. Strong anti-gun communities so suicides are more often an overdose or a leap of one sort or another. Shows ya the differences in different parts of the country.
Heck... only 40 or 50 years ago it was NORMAL for kids to bring rifles to school around here. The idea was to try to get something for dinner on the way home!
Heh. Not to worry about me, I live WAY upstate. And yes, warm meat is better than frozen meat any day. Still, more than 150 miles from the city, guns are frowned upon up here as well and you don't see that many gunshot suicides. Homicides are a different story of course. But in the city, the mentality is throwing yourself in front of a train or a bus if the train is more than four blocks away. :)
Just to keep things in perspective, so far this year, less than 1/2 of all the 12-9s have been the result of jumpers. More people were hit walking on the tracks. Last week there was one on the G line where the person attempted to run across the tracks in front of the train. In another on the C line, a guy was hit while (moving his bowels) squatting just outside of the station.
In another on the C line, a guy was hit while (moving his bowels)
squatting just outside of the station.
Where are you when we need you, Mr. Darwin?
Some people don't want their deaths to look like suicides. There's a stigma surrounding suicide that can make things difficult for surviving family members, and many life insurance policies have a suicide exclusion clause.
It often is not absolutely clear-cut whether a 12-9 was in fact a suicide. People have been known to become dizzy and fall off platforms, or get pushed without anyone actually seeing the pushing. A 12-9 suicide, therefore, can leave an element of doubt, which is just what the people may want.
This sort of thing happens quite often with car crashes. When a car goes off a clear road at high speed into a tree or bridge abutment, with alcohol and drug tests being negative, it's often fairly evident what happened. But unless the driver left a note, nothing can be proven.
Actually it was a male who jumped. He was struck by the 1st truck of the E train ans was wedged between the 3rd rail and the protection board. That's a tight space to remain in tact.
Later in the day, the R-143 had its first 12-9 at Halsey. Another jumper but this one survived. Anyone care to guess what the 12-9 count is for this year?
It definately seems like we're hearing more about it this year.
didnt know you were up and running again.... in any case welcome back,and this time[guys] lets have fun with this ...OK?
I'm glad you back I like reading about the subway and think you are the best dave welcome back . I be in nyc in july for two weeks.
There are still a few trains of Redbirds -- four, I think -- left on the 2. Assuming the 2 will return to Manhattan express service when the line to South Ferry is reopened, about 16 minutes will be shaved off the round trip 2 running time. And guess what? It takes 3-4 cars to fill 16 minutes at the 2's rush hour headway. So has the 2 gotten its complete R-142 delivery?
Not yet. There are still cars that are as of this writing, undelivered. Also, there were a group of cars on the sidelines that are now coming out of hibernation. It appears that the 2/5 are pooling Redbirds as well as having their respective R-142 sets.
-Stef
Why is the 2 getting more trains than it needs for service? Or is this the sign of an upcoming service increase on the 2?
I don't know about service increases, but anything is possible.
Not sure about R-142 Reliability at this point, but some Redbirds are being kept for the time being. With any luck the 2 should be completely R-142 at some future time.
-Stef
The #2 line might actually keep at least 2-3 Redbird trains until at least September...
Cleanairbus
With any luck
Bad luck, you must mean! (I'm one of the R-142 haters, remember?)
I only like the R142A's. I hate the R142(BOM) cars. I came to the No.5 to enjoy the last of the Redbirds so after there gone I'm going to the No.1 or 6 Lines or Learn a New Div.
Why not head on over to B Division and take a Slant to lunch! Ever driven one? Ah yes, they're a treat, that's for sure. Diamond "Q", northbound, get a fast Slant and it's a bit of heaven.
wayne
Don't all lines get more trains than they need for service, in case a couple are out of order?
- Lyle Goldman
so there are still redbirds doing express on the #2 ???
The 2 runs local until the line to South Ferry reopens (except when Times Square tower has one of its frequent whims).
There are approximately four 2 trains of Redbirds remaining. I saw one yesterday (going the other way, unfortunately).
The Redbirds will most likely be gone from the 2 line by summer's end. For the last two weekends, the 2 line was 100% R142.
Sniff.
Tissue?
That's it boys......no more R142s to the #2 Line. It is now up to the #5 to get the R142s running. Five ten car trainsets on the rail with two more coming in this week. The first scheduled maintainance of the R142s by the 180/239 crew was a great success thanks to our Dept. Supt. and the supervisors. In two weeks there will be two more ten car trainsets in for SM. I have been removing Redbird records from the maintainance files...putting them to rest. The best news of course is that this site is up and running again to keep in touch with my friends and co-workers. CI Peter. CED - WE MAKE TRAINS GO!
Hey Peter I had the R142 PM put-in and was stuck with it for 2 full trips. The first trip no problem but the second trip I found out there is no Utica Destination signs so the TSS ordered the train to be programmed for Bowling Green and Manual announcements after. We had to problems.
1. I programmed it as a Bronx Local but the < 5 > remained and wouldn't change.
2. C/R operating car 6871 has No working PA or IC. T/O had to make announcement for me.
3. TOD said AAS problems in cars 6872,73,74. B cars where only effected.
I tryed to get a Redbird for the Utica trip but the T/D said you R142 quilified so its you to go.
I want my Redbirds!!!
Wait a minute. I can't believe my eyes. Utica is the scheduled terminal on a good number of southbound 5 trips, yet there's no way to properly sign such a train?! I thought we had it bad on the West Side with our "This is a Bronx-bound 2 EXPRESS! train" gaffe.
Thats Right!!! I believe there are about 14 trains AM+PM that Terminate at Utica AVE and no way to program it as a last stop. The TSS wants us to Program it to Bowling Green then make manual announcements.
What about New Lots? That's also a terminal for a few 5 trains.
Don't all trains from 238th end up at either Utica or New Lots? I know there's signage for the north terminal -- shouldn't there be signage for the south terminal?
It looks like whoever did the programming got all the info straight off the map, which is notoriously incomplete when it comes to IRT terminals.
No New Lots. The only #5 Line destinations that are Programable are
North South
Dyre E 180
E 180 Bowling Green
Neried Ave Flatbush
That's absurd. Why so limited? What's the point of software-driven signs when it's made to be even less flexible than the rollsigns they replaced?
I see somebody isn't learning from his (or her) mistakes.
There is absolutely no reason the fancy automated system on an R-142 should not be able to be programmed on-the-fly as a train of any arbitrary route designation making any sequence of stops physically possible. The train should automatically adjust the announcements and the destination display. Ideally it should also automatically adjust the routing ("7 AV" vs. "LEX AV" vs., in theory, "FLUSHING") and the local/express status.
I predict that within ten years, the current automated announcement/signage system will be disabled. Perhaps it will be replaced with what I suggest above. Perhaps it will be replaced with a low-tech system as on the R-44/46's or an even lower-tech rollsign system. Perhaps trains will just roll around with no signage at all. I don't know which, but seeing the problems the inflexibility of the system has caused in the past year alone (granted, a lot has happened in the past year), I can't imagine it'll suffice for the next decade.
Let's just hope that the TA makes the appropriate modifications to the R-143 and R-160 orders before we end up with a city full of anonymous trains.
BTW, 6361-6370 in service on the 5...rode in cra #6366...rode pretty nice
Cleanairbus
6436-40 are also in # 5 Line service
6436-40 have entered service also, coupled to 6871-75.
-Stef
dont you notice the announcements when the R142 is running on the 5? They sound kinda funny...First it says "This is a manhattan bound 5 express train" fast and low pitched, then it says the next station slowly, like: "The next stop is Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall." Don't know if anyone's noticed, I am still new to this forum :-)
I've noticed they have three voices two women one man has any one else noticed this also?
Dave: you hit one of my sore points about 'new tech.' These trainsets' software adjustments are NOT in TA inspection hands! If you see AAS syncronisation problems or failures in destination signs/announcements, make sure that RTO has it on paper to pass on to CED. WE are a team that keeps our city alive and TA management will go after Bombardier and its vendors IF informed. CI Peter
It seems to me then that the Redbirds are providing extra service while the 2 is running local. Like I said in a previous post, the last two weekends, the 2 was 100% R142s. It looks like when the 2 return express, the Redbirds wont be there...........
Another poster mentioned that there are two Redbird trainsets still running...supervisors told me that there are far more units still on the line and I can confirm that because I've been cleaning up the SM/TT files. Soon, soon, all will be gone. CI Peter
Redbirds come in now as a married pair to keep some car inspectors busy. Others come in to 239th for the #5 switchover...flagged cars really stink. New Tech is good. CI Peter
What I am about to say is old news from over a month ago, but here goes. The R142 BOMBardier cars have an intermittant nasty habit of losing all the air from their main resevior tanks thereby causing an emergency brake application due to a lack of brake pipe air. Cause unknown. Additionally, a number of 6300 and 6400 series cars have yet to turn a wheel in customer service partly due to cannibalization. Is there anyone out there to prove me wrong?
Well everyone who rides in to Manhattan during the evening rush using the Queens Boulevard Line knows the pain. A broken rail along the Northern Boulevard Corridor, cause all express service to be suspended going to Manhattan. In turn 4 lines were running express. It took me 36 minutes to go between 71 Avenue and Roosevelt Avenue on the EXPRESS track! What hell Queens Boulevard riders have to pay, luckily I ride it only once a week.
Does anyone (i.e. David Cole?) know when the State St Subway was built? Who built it? I looked on the Chicago section of this site and didn't find it...
Thanks
Alicia
It was a WPA/New Deal funded job opened in 1943. In the early years, service was Howard-Jackson Park or Englewood via the now non revenue ramp just south of Roosevelt Road to the South Side L.
Construction of both the State St. and Dearborn St. subways began shortly before WWII, but construction was halted by a shortage of materials and in deference to the war effort. When it was realized that the existing loop L was seriously short of capacity due to the extra wartime traffic, the priority of completing the State St. subway was bumped up, and it opened in 1943. The Dearborn St. subway wasn't completed until after the war ended, opening in 1951 (as far south as LaSalle/Congress, extended into the Eisenhower expressway median in 1958 when the new line there opened).
-- Ed Sachs
They had to go out and round up all of the 4000-series cars for subway service. At the time, they were the only all-steel cars in the entire system.
The city wasn't proud of the fact that they were running 20 year old 4000 series steel L cars through their new subway. The brochures printed at the time showed an artist's drawing of a BMT Bluebird in the State Street Subway.
-- Ed Sachs
Unfortunately, they didn't have any choice. Right after CTA was formed, they started looking into acquiring more modern L equipment. Enter the 6000-series cars. Exit the Green Hornets (and, for that matter, all Windy City streetcars).
In its first six years (10/17/43-7/31/49), the subway was served by Evanston-Jackson Park (including Howard-Jackson Park short turns) and Ravenswood-Englewood/Normal Park trains. The more recent Howard-Jackson Park and Howard-Englewood pairings (which lasted until 1993) came in with CTA's 8/1/49 route restructuring, at which time Ravenswood was returned to the Loop "L," and Evanston was changed to a mostly-shuttle operation with limited through operation to the Loop.
Alan Follett
thanks to both you and Ed for correction/amplification. My knowledge is stronger after 1955 when I started riding.
Thanks for all the responses. Very helpful.
Alicia
Doesn't the MTA realize that the people in the last 5 cars of an R-62A 7 have no way to contact or reach the crew while the train is heading southbound? The transverse cab is at the 7th car, but the conductor moves between 5 and 6 and the T/O is normally located in the first car! Possible solutions:
1: Knock down the transverse cabs.
2: Have the conductor use the transverse cab in car 7 for southbound trips and point at the ///Alternate Position/// board instead.
There is no problem northbound, since the T/O is in the first car, the empty transverse is in 5 and the C/R is between 6/7.
"Doesn't the MTA realize that the people in the last 5 cars of an R-62A 7 have no way to contact or reach the crew while the train is heading southbound?"
So what? NYCT and its predecessors have been running cars with locked storm doors for many, many years. Currently, the R-44 through R-68A series on the BMT/IND are that way, and prior to that, the BMT "Standards" had locked storm doors. What's different here, besides that it hasn't happened on the #7 before?
David
Hmm, it makes no sense at the passengers' leisure as you mentioned. Though, I'd like the 2nd option, it would really benefit the conductor. I mean, he has to force himself from cab to cab, going through the elements and angry at the passengers with no remorse! It's not fair, considering the R62 rolling stock used on the mainline, utilizes its full-width cab.
It's rather ironic that how the 7 line has the leisure of longer cars, it's also creating all of these annoyances. That probably explains for the 10-car tests they did in April. If they could only move the boards... About them, what's the difference between a black/white one and a red/yellow one?
You mean longer trains, not longer cars.
I'm not that familiar with the term alternate board. What does it mean and can a I guess from the above post that it is a red/yellow board.
Thanks
Maybe once the 7 is all R62A they will move the boards to the current location of the transverse cab. I would assume that since all 4 or 5 trains have the cab in that location, they must be doing it for some reason.
The alternate position board is already at the location of the transverse cab.
That's exactly my point. Since it's there, it doesn't utilize the full-width cab.
Wouldn't it be easier to just turn around the trains so the transverse cab is at the board?
You can't. There isn't a loop track at the Corona Yards, which explains why the railfan window-end is always facing Manhattan-bound. However, this will change when the Corona Yards get a makeover.
Well, perhaps I should be asking why new R-62A moves to the Flushing line aren't facing the opposite direction.
But surely there's some way to turn a train around. It could be looped through Stillwell -- roundabout, but it works. Or it could be taken apart in the yard and reassembled with the six singles at the Flushing end rather than the Manhattan end, which would do the trick just as well.
Really? In its present condition, how can it be done at the Corona Yards?
I gave two options.
One: Hook up an R-33 single to the Manhattan end (and to the Flushing end, just in case), run down to Coney Island via the Sea Beach or West End, run back into Manhattan via the Brighton, and run back out to Flushing.
Two: Don't flip the entire train around, but instead just rearrange the cars. Send the five-car set onto one track and the six singles onto another. Then send the five-car set back followed by the six singles. Now the five-car set is at the Manhattan end.
Way easier with self propelled cars!
I'm not sure I understand your comment. The only reason for the R-33 singles, if that's what you're referring to, is that they have tripcocks on both sides. The R-62A's alone could get to Coney Island and back just fine, but the protection offered by the signals would be reduced. Or was it something else I said?
I guess the existence of the red/yellow alternate board is to allow conductors to use a different operating position if one of the cabs in the regular one isn't usable for some reason. Since either way he's looking at 6 cars one way, and 5 cars the other, it shouldn't matter which cab he uses.
Yes, except the R-44 through R-68a all have:
1: The C/R or T/O can unlock all the doors from any cab by turning a switch.
2: The storm window can be kicked out in an emergency.
The point I was trying to make, and perhaps I didn't make it well enough, is that the R-44 through R-68A have locked storm doors at both ends of every car and no customer intercom. The R-62A cars have locked storm doors only at the ends of every five-car unit and (I believe) at both ends of the single car, albeit with no customer intercom. If people are concerned about the locked storm doors, then riders of unitized R-62A cars (or the leftover car in an 11-car #7 consist) have it easy compared to riders of R-44 through R-68A cars.
In the event of an emergency requiring the crew's attention, would a rider of a train of R-44 through R-68A cars be able to attract the crew's attention any more easily than a rider of a unitized R-62A? Of course not. And yet these trains of R-44 through R-68A cars are out on the road 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and thousands of people ride them in complete safety.
David
Still, in the event of an emergency evacuation the passengers on the R-62a would have to wait for the C/R or someone with a key to come by and unlock three doors (what if he forgot? What would the passengers resort to if they thought he had forgotten?). On the 75' cars all he has to do is turn a switch and everyone has free passage.
And a passenger who absolutely needs to get out of an R-44/46/68/68A car can knock out the window, by design, and unlock the door into the next car. The little window in the R-62A cab door is kind of small even if it can be knocked out.
If the C/R used the transverse cab going southbound (and I'm relying on you guys to have placement correct), upon arrival at Times Sq, he would have to a) open the doors to let everyone out; b)close down and dezone the train; c)key himself off; d:) have the new C/R zone up at the other operating position. This stunt would also have to happen again at Main St to get the new southbound C/R back in the transverse.
To head off the next question - current policy requires the C/R and T/O to occupy different sections of trains with multi-car links. Therefore, the C/R could not stay in the transverse cab going north because he and the T/O would be in the same set of a 5 car link. (again, I'm working on what you all have been saying and assuming only one transverse cab in the middle of the train. The presence of two would nullify this arguement, but would still result in the zoning problem mentioned above.
To head off the next question - current policy requires the C/R and T/O to occupy different sections of trains with multi-car links.
Why?
If there's no good reason for this policy, how much of a challenge would it be to drop it?
The reason is that if a train made up of two five-car sections were to accidently decouple, there would be a crew member in each section. Personally, I don't recall this scenario ever happening. as for how much of a challenge to change it, I'd say that the proverbial snowball has better chances.
The last that I have heard about a pull-apart taking place was when the R44's came back from GOH and there were 2 pull-aparts. That was some years ago, but it shows that it can indeed happen.
I have pictures of the new Bombardier M-7 cars for LIRR during testing at Penn Station today...platform and tunnel wall clearance was the main issue today, that's why u see the added padding on the sides of the train...
Here is the message with the pictures on my message board, TransitBoard...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Cleaanirbus Transit Page Webmaster
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
Kind of what the offspring woould look like between an M1 and an R143. Freaky! But not too bad looking. So, uh, what's with that faint yellowish stripe on the side?
:-) Andrew
That's a reflection of the yellow on the platform edge...:-)
Carlton
Cleanairbus
They're great pics however they're some SMUGLY looking cars. I smell a RAT.
Why? BUMLARDIER or better known as Bombardier. The R62A's braking is shot-very jolty and will make you nautious. (Rode 2153 on 7 today-proves my point). The R142s being a disaster that they are. 6491-6495 not being able to move 1 inch at CCY. And now this HIDEOUS M-7?! This is what's replacing the M-1?!
It's bad enough that the DEM Engines are a disaster, The GP38-2's are long gone and so are the 2800 and 2900 series passenger cars but now BUMLARDIER CARS to add to LIRR's problems?!
Another Point: By the summer, LIRR'S borrowing AMTRAK PASSENGER CARS for the Montauk Branch. Why not F40PH also?
Sorry to say but the LIRR is just adding gas to the fire by getting these cars. THEY'RE SMUGLY and will cause even more hell than what the situation is now! Give me an M-1 anyday over this GRUBBAGE!
#9440 M-1 LIRR
It's bad enough that the DEM Engines are a disaster, The GP38-2's are long gone and so are the 2800 and 2900 series passenger cars but now BUMLARDIER CARS to add to LIRR's problems?!
Another Point: By the summer, LIRR'S borrowing AMTRAK PASSENGER CARS for the Montauk Branch. Why not F40PH also?
Yeah the LIRR has been downgraded from a very interesting railroad to total utilitarian. I miss the GP38's, the F units, etc. Each train was different. You never knew what was coming when you saw the light in the distance. Now all the trains look the same.....no character.
Now what's this about Amtrak coaches? Is this true? What are they using them for....parlor service?
I heard that the F40 will not clear the overhead canopy at Jamaica. Additionally, AMTRAK is having their own issues with coach availability and car shortages. I don't see them having extra cars to loan or lease to the LIRR.
" don't see them having extra cars to loan or lease to the LIRR."
Not necessarily so.
AMTK has many cars laid up waiting repairs without funds. (Or so a previous poster said.)
If LIRR wanted to lease a few of these, the LIRR would be pleased to fix them up.
The LIRR does not know how to fix anything. Their track record on car maintance is abysmal.
LIRR runs (or did run) a big shop for repairing freight cars. Maybe the NY&A has it now. There was money to be made in that:
"Gee, BNSF, your car seems to have a defect, it needs to be fixed before we can interchange it" For most railroads you get as many of your own cars fixed as you fix for others, and so it is a push, but not so for the LIRR.
Don't blame LIRR, blame the MTA because the MTA execs have some skeam with Bombadier so money given to Bombadier is given back to the execs private accounts. Also I heard on another board that the MTA and Bombadier have offices in the same building as Bombadier (conflict of intrest?, no competitive biding). Personally the MTA needs execs that care about profitability (I know thats impossible) or the least amount of money loss.
Not to mention that one of the top BOMBardier suits is Peter Stangl. The same Peter Stangl, former head of the MTA.
Not to that the M-1hasn't been a reliable car for the LIRR over the past 30yrs ,but they are that 30yrs old .Plus I had the misfortune of getting a train of M-1's on the Pt Washington branch a few weeks back when it was 96 degrees and they ran them w/o air conditioning.
Yeah... back in the 70s and early 80s the A/Cs failed frequently. They would use those yellow sticks to prop the storm doors open to get some ventilation. When leaving NYP I walways got onboard the train first, and headed to the seat by the conductor's window. (I knew that the conductor was not using the window in the car I was riding.)
Problem is you gotta stop the train and reset those beasts from the outside.
Elias
I agree that the front of the car looks like a R143 w/ the black paint, but the exterior sides of the train look similar to the Acela Express, in my opinion. -Nick
If you visit Montreal there commuter railroad AMT has cars that look very similar. But the seats will probably be different. The side light (indicates if door is closed and other info) is exactly whats on the AMT's cars (electric overhead 25,000v, 60hz, not the diesels).
So, when do we get to see them out on the road? I wanna see one in action already!!!
Anyone got an 'in' on the testing schedule?
Expect to see these ugly bad boys on the rails, with pieces of the cars falling on the Long Beach ROW by around the fall of this year...please do not quote me on this, as it is only a rumor and speculation.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Are you sure Jeff H. isn't working on this project. One shot has a test wire running out of the cab windown.
Jeff H. is know to run stuff like that >G<.
Hmm, don't know, wasn't relaly paying too much attention to that...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Lou,
I am offended.
You know I ALWAYS have at least TWO wires!
The front of the M-7's look like the R-143 and the side of the Cars looks similar to the Acela Passenger Cars, especially the windows.
-AcelaExpress2005
I kind of like the new cars... I know I shouldn't, since the MNRR equivalent will mean the death of my favorite ACMUs.
I don't find them ugly, and if it weren't for the transverse cab I'd be anxiously awaiting their arrival.
At least they have large side windows, similar to the Acela. They also remind me of the NJT Comet V.
Is the M-7 backward compatible with the M-1 and 3? I doubt it, but you never know!
It's a little early to be thinking about this year's Try Transit Festival, but some turkey on Harry's site posted Saturday October 5 as the date without giving any source of information, so consider it an internet rumor.
Dave:
Thanks! A thousand thanks for bringing Subtalk back!! IT WAS MISSED!!!
Eric Dale Smith
To all Dallas-Ft. Worth railfans,
I read recently that the privately owned Tandy Subway in Forth Worth Texas might be closed in September. Is there any plans by the Fort Worth transit authority to take over the line? It would be a shame if the line would be permanently closed.
I don't know if you're aware, but the Tandy Subway serves parking lots and a mall. Its sole purpose is to bring folks from the parking lots to the mall. It has no real role in public transit.
-Hank
How big is the mall system? (stations etc.) Anyone know a link to any photos?
Right here:
TANDY SUBWAY
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe the line ran a little over one mile. Too bad, it still could be made useful.
What do you expect from the oil-rich state?
This was the original purpose when it was opened in 1963. Now it looks like that many downtown workers take advantage of the free parking to ferry them downtown.
oh no !! & i wanted to see it !! i guess DART won !
To think the guys in the shop has been buying MBTA PCCs and Chicago's PCC rapid transit cars just to strip the PCC motors, trucks and controls. They were planning to extend the track out to Trinity Park Zoo, but the only thing the did was to move the station near the barn in the direction of the river. Ho well, at least I got to see the before, during, and after of the rebuilding of the cars. Dave posted all the photos I submitted for all to see.
Phil Hom
(Who lived in Fort Worth 1974-1976)
did the DART system take over the route ???
DART only covers the Dallas end of the Metroplex.
yep
Fort Worth is the western half of the area callled the Metroplex. From downtown Fort Worth to downtown Dallas is about 40 miles apart.
DART serves Dallas and the "T" serves Fort Worth.
These two cities have a joint commuter rail line called Trinity River Express (TRE). They started with a set of real Budd RDC and now they also have some ex-Go Transit equipment from Toronto. They (TRE) also leased a pair of F40 and cars from Amtrak.
When a plane arrives in DFW airport, they always seems to leave out the city of Fort Worth. The dividing line between Dallas and Fort Worth runs right down the middle of DFW. American Airline's terminal is in Fort Worth. Sometimes a Fort Worth native would correct the announcer about the arrival to Dallas by saying "I'm on the wrong plane! I wanted to go to Fort Worth"
Included in the Metroplex is a city known as Arlington. That city is known as the largest city in the USA WITHOUT public transportation.
My guess is that downtown Fort Worth would admit they made a mistake in closing their little light rail line. The north side of downtown is boarded by the Trinity River, the south side by the former T&P (MP now UP) trackage, the east with the BNSF (former ATSF). The west is the only place they can go, but it is already developed. The "subway" shoud be expended and downtown FW should be a car-free zone.
BTW Radio Shack brought some property that was low-income city housing. The people are force to move somewhere else. That property (and the parking lot) will be the staging point for construction equipment for the new Radio Shack headquarters.
Trinity Railway Express also leased railcars from Connecticut DOT in the beginning. httt://donross.railspot.com under Trinity Railway Express has color photos of all the equipment used by TRE.
According to a map that I have, there appears to be an unused track extending past Spring Valley Station on the Pascack Valley Line to Suffern Station on the Port Jervis Line. Would it be feasible to extend Pascack Valley service to Suffern along this track?
- Lyle Goldman
That track is torn up between the yard west of the Spring Velley station and Tallman (at approximately where the ROW goes under route 59). Track stille xists from that spot to Suffern but it's in bad shape and limited to freights of very small consists under 10mph.
So, no, it won't be extended anytime soon.
--Mark
Why do you want to do that, Lyle - other than the obvious railfan reasons?
Well, it would provide convenient rail access from stations along the Pascack Valley Line in New Jersey and New York to Suffern and other stops on the Port Jervis Line, wouldn't it?
- American Lyle
Yes, but AFAIK the Pascack Valley line has only 3 or 4 trains in the morning towards Hoboken, then 3 or 4 in the afternoon the other way. Not really much service to make connections to at Suffern, although if you were really trying to get from Hoboken to Spring Valley in the morning rush, it would be nice. What would really make it a useful line, however, would be some passing loops, as I understand it is single track for its whole length.
What would really make it a useful line, however, would be some passing loops, as I understand it is single track for its whole length.
There was a plan to double track the Pascack Valley line a couple years ago so reverse commute trains could run without interfering with freight trains that also use the single track during the day. The plan was deferred and the capital redeployed elsewhere.
You mean the whole Pascack Valley Line, in both New Jersey and New York, from Secaucus to Spring Valley, ONLY HAS ONE TRACK?
- Lyle Goldman
You mean the whole Pascack Valley Line, in both New Jersey and New York, from Secaucus to Spring Valley, ONLY HAS ONE TRACK?
That's my understanding. Actually, the plan isn't to double-track the line, but to install six passing sidings.
Bob
What about the New Jersey Transit Bergen Line? How many tracks does that line have?
- Lyle Goldman
What about the New Jersey Transit Bergen Line? How many tracks does that line have?
Two, IIRC.
It would be a good idea to consolidate the two yards into one, yes. But that map is horribly outdated. (You're using the PDF map from the NJDOT website, right? It looks like they just ran a GIS to PDF converter on an old GIS map.)
Actually, I was looking at a relatively current version of Hagstrom's Rockland County map. I haven't looked at the NJDOT map yet, but I am downloading it as we speak.
- Lyle Goldman
Actually, I was looking at a relatively current version of Hagstrom's Rockland County map.
Hah. Hah. Tee. Hee. LOL. "Current version of Hagstrom's . . . map" is a good example of an oxymoron. In my experience, the most recent edition of any Hagstrom map is generally years out of date as to changes in rail lines. For example, the 1997 edition of their Hudson County map shows a track running on Hudson Street from Exchange Place south to Exxex Street and continuing around the corner on Essex as far as Greene Street in Jersey City. Since this was in pre-HBLR days, I can only guess how long this phantom track had persisted only on the maps after it had been gone from the streets. And then there's the pair of tracks it shows crossing Washington Blvd near 2nd or 3rd Street, also in Jersey City. And so on.
My Hagstroms maps from circa 1995 still show the Putnam line (freight line between the Hudson and Harlem lines).
Exactly!!!
My Hagstroms maps from circa 1995 still show the Putnam line (freight line between the Hudson and Harlem lines).
Heck, I had a map from the mid-1980's that still showed passenger stations on the Put! Passenger service ended in 1958, in other words almost 30 years before the map came out.
I have a map from the 80's that still has a station or two on the Bay Ridge Line shown, although they are not a solid black rectangle, but an outlined white rectangle.
Heck, I had a map from the mid-1980's that still showed passenger stations on the Put!
Where were the stations on the Putnam Line?
Heck, I had a map from the mid-1980's that still showed passenger stations on the Put!
Where were the stations on the Putnam Line?
There were a few in Yonkers, those are about the only ones I can recall although there certainly were others.
Yorktown Hts, Carmel
I happen to have my Lower Westchester map handy. Going north from the city limits:
In Yonkers:
Lincoln, Dunwoodie, Bryn Mawr Park, Nepperhan, Gray Oaks, Nepera Park
Then in various towns (these are mostly not village names, or even names I recognize from growing up in Westchester): Mt. Hope, Chauncey, Ardsley (an actual village), Woodlands, Worthington, Elmsford (a village), East View, and then off the map.
James: The Putnam Division ran from Sedgewick Avenue Terminal in The Bronx parallel to the Hudson Line to BN Junction(north of University Heights) and then continued on its own until Putnam Junction on the Harlem Line.
Put passenger trains actually terminated at Brewster coming in from the north. The last through passenger train from Sedgewick Avenue was #947 which left at 547PM on Thursday,May 29,1958. Passenger service on the very north end of the lines using the Harlem Division's Lake Mahopac Branch lasted until April 2,1959. Portions of the line continued to have freight service into the 80's. About the only portion of the line still active is the Y at Put Junction on Metro-North's Harlem Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I was on that last Putnam Division train, rode the rear vestibule of the last car all the way from Highbridge where I grew up to Brewster, came back on the Harlem line with a locootive hauled train that made local stops in the Bronx; got off at Tremont, took the 36 bus the rest of the way home. Two RS-3 Alco's lead uit 8259, 5 steel coaches, engineer veteran Bill Kennedy. I had the honors of seeing steam 4-6-0's there in early childhood, then Lima Hamiltons, Baldwins, finally Alco RS-'s.
Ed: Now thats being part of history. The demise of the PUT was a little before my time but I did ride the last CNJ train into Jersey City the night before the Aldene Plan took effect.
Best Wishes,Larry, RedbirdR33
I was on that one too, wiyh Ji Smith, and Amos Hewitt from New Haven CT and a coupe other friends. Also for te last Weehawken nd Hoboken ferries, was a conductor on next to the last BN train west from Livingston before MRL took over. Like a lot of other fans I must be a rail mortician. Sadly I missed the end of the North Shore out of Chi. !@#$%^&*+_ I can't get back into the frame to correct m typos!
This is almost in my back yard.
The MTA bought the right of way from Spring Valley to Suffern a number of years ago, to protect it in case they want to use it in the future. At one point there was talk of increasing service by deadheading early morning trains from Hoboken to Suffern, to Spring Valley. This has long since been shelved.
At this time they are in the final stages of expanding the Spring Valley yard, and there are plans to install several passing sidings between Spring Valley and Hoboken. With this, the likelyhood of needing the line from Spring Valley to Suffern is small, however, the MTA will probably hold on to it.
BTW - Current service on the Pascack Valley line consists of seven morning inbound trains, and nine evening outbound. The last 2 deadhead back.
The MTA bought the right of way from Spring Valley to Suffern a number of years ago, to protect it in case they want to use it in the future. At one point there was talk of increasing service by deadheading early morning trains from Hoboken to Suffern, to Spring Valley. This has long since been shelved.
I suppose the line could be useful if there's ever a new rail crossing built over the Hudson in the vicinity of the Tappan Zee Bridge.
"I suppose the line could be useful if there's ever a new rail crossing built over the Hudson in the vicinity of the Tappan Zee Bridge."
Not really - The former right of way East of Nanuet and over in the direction of the river is long since gone.
oh well i just wanted to ask something about what seems this long
gap between numbers !!....????.... a R 62 but no R-60 !!!
lol !!!
& who determines what number a subway car gets anyway ???
lol !!
and there was never an R -50 !!! why not folks ??
lol !!!
You'll probably want to check out this page and see what the R50, R70, Rwhatever that never went into revenue service was ... they really DID use all the numbers but "(R)evenue" contracts weren't always a fleet of cars. Sometimes they were other needed items ...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rroster.htm
howdy! :)
yea because it always was a question as to why there never was
a R 50 R 60 R 70 R 80 R 90....lol !!
But there were each of those - ya just don't wanna RIDE in any of them. Lemme rephrase that ... unless you're a FOAMER you don't wanna ride in any of them. :)
the boy just don't understand.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well ... I know *I* would be psyched if I was invited for a ride on a set of R-80's although I'd make it a point to throw my shovel overboard to avoid the extra extra work. :)
wait a minute "U" 2 "U" "R"......sayin' there was a
R-50 R-60 R-70 R-80 R-90...??
come on you "eastcoast experts" !!!----lol !!!!!
lets git' it on !!!------lol !!!
( R we having FUN or whaaaaaaaaatttt ) !!!..........lol !!!
he he he he he he he he he he he he ........
ok what did the R50 R60 R70 R80 R90 >>>>>>>>>>look like ???
eh ??
I just checked the link that Selkirk referred to with the complete list of R equipment. I was intrigued by the R-39. It said "120 Passenger Cars for BMT & IRT elevated lines (never purchased)"
Does anyone know anything about it? I assume they were special lightweight cars the TA was planning on getting for the Myrtle and Bronx Third Av Els. It would have been the first time the IND & BMT used the same cars. (I mean cars built intended for both divisions, I DO know about the Low-V's on the Culver Shuttle)
My expectation (I don't have the contract date so I'm only guessing here) is that those would probably have gone to the Myrtle and third avenue el as isolated lines. The number would sound about right.
They were going to be like IRT versions of the R-38
>>I was intrigued by the R-39. It said "120 Passenger Cars for BMT & IRT elevated lines (never purchased)"
Does anyone know anything about it?<<
Yes, the R-39 cars if built and delivered would replace all the Q-Types on the Myrtle Ave line and Low-V's on the 3rd Ave Line. But, someone felt that it would be cheaper to close and demolish the structures than replace their rolling stock.
Bill "Newkirk"
Some of the contract numbers were used when the cars were rebuild with air conditioning. The R32 may not really be an R32, and the R36 is not really an R36 when rebuilt. Look at the R11. Only the car design people called them R34. The wheel turing lathe has an R series contract number. Maybe the replacement trucks on the R46 is another R contract.
The R1 was for the body only (a standard practice) and the R2 was for trucks and motors. The BRT installed the motors and control on the standards in the 39th Street Shops. They got the shells from the builders.
Phil Hom
Nobody seems to have answered the "why not" -- the missing R-numbers aren't really missing, but they are used for various other types of equipment besides the passenger rolling stock.
You can go to Joe Korman's subwy site and find a list. It's rather interesting what's in the R-numbers!
yea that is one hell of a good website !!!
love it to death !!!
man i cant wait to come home to visit NYC this late summer !!!
woooooooooooo
Dewd ... step away from the shrooms. Heh. Talk nice to Train Dude and perhaps he can get you a ride in one of the R-80 ballast hoppers. :)
Or better yet, an R-58 Refuse Flat Car. Just the ticket on a hot humid August night in the NYC subway system.
Hahahah ... Actually, what I'd get my rocks off on is mounting a lawn chair on an R2 with a chickenstick and go for a ride. :)
Chickenstick?????
Wha's that?
The "chicken stick" is actually a broadcast transmitter kinda thing - it's a long, insulated POLE with a metal tip on the end connected to a ground wire whose purpose is to poke and prod at "bleeder resistors" inside a transmitter cabinet to discharge charged capacitors at voltage potentials of 50,000 volts or more to ensure that all current is removed before you go and start touching high voltage components for maintenance.
This guy at CIY had a similar kinda pole that he'd touch to bugs or hot third rail that he would lash up to his own little magic box that in turn connected to the four wires of traction motors to "give them a zitz" to see if the repair "held" ... sometimes he'd fly down the track, sometimes he'd make smoke. Like I said, this guy was NUTS. :)
sorry folks! i do not smoke - or drink !!!
lol !!!!!!
Dang! Where's yer sense of ADVENTURE? These are elephant times. Massive doses of drugs are in order. :)
ok ..........you said ..........
"Dang! Where's yer sense of ADVENTURE? These are elephant times. Massive doses of drugs are in order. :)""
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I can answer dat' real good !!
My drug is rail transit & shooting them on video & photo/stills!!
NOW DAT' IS A REAL DRUG ADDICTION !!!!!!!!
no kiddin its almost like having "SEX" with some fine looking chick!
@ I do have to confess my addiction to the starbucks & the coffee
bean drug stores ( caffene ) MAN I AM HOOKED ON DAT' DRUG !!!
( but ) the ultimate HIGH is a in cab ride or ""railfan window view""
@ """Massive doses of drugs are in order""" ....!!!
I cannot wait to step off the greyhound in nyc with my cameras to
INJECT MYSELF WITH THE DRUG OF RAIL TRANSIT IN NYC etc......
!!!!!Massive doses of drugs are in order!!!!!!!!
MAN DO I AGREE WITH YOU 100% .....( oh well i admit mine ) ..lol!!
so dont worry bout' me any longer i am HOOKED ON RAIL TRANSIT DRUG!
>>>>>>>>>lol !!!
thankz take care of yourself ........salaamallah
One too
many trips
to Starbucks today...huh?
Peace,
ANDEE
Isn't that FIVEbucks? (no free refills)
This project is costing hundereds of millions of dollars, but I fully support it. According to news a few weeks ago, the 1/9 will be back in full service two months early; on or around 9/30...just 1 year and 29 days after the destruction occured. I must say that I'm impressed on the speed of this project. When everything first occured, we thought it would take a few years to get all the stations open. I assume that when the 1/9 is fully back, then the 2 will start going express again? -Nick
A while back I bought on ebay an IRT Token.
I know that it is from the early 1930's when the IRT had it minted in anticipation of being granted a fare increase fron 5 cents to 7 or 8 cents.
I have been told by several people that there were 3 varieties made.
Does anyone out there have any further information on these different varieties?
Plus any other related information would be appreciated (exact year minted, how many were minted etc, etc, etc.)
I am sure out among the wise guys - whoops - knowledgeable individuals out there someone must have some clue.
Thanks,
Allan
I believe after the IRT lost their chance to raise the fare, they sold their tokens to PATH.
>>I believe after the IRT lost their chance to raise the fare, they sold their tokens to PATH. <<
No they didn't. This happened in the 1930's. PATH did not come along until the 1960's.
The predesser Hudson & Manhattan had their own token with a "H" stamped out.
PATH used tokens with a "1" stamped out.
There are several accounts of the IRT selling their tokens to the H&M, who then melted them down to make the "H" tokens. So I tend to believe this happened. Before tokens, the H&M used tickets. I have quite a few of the tokens/tickets in my collection and can post scans if anyone is interested.
An IRT token? Next you're gonna tell us you have an IRT MetroCard.
Ah David, skeptical as ever.
Prior to my purchase I had only seen 2 of them. One at the Transit Museum and one on Joe Korman's site:
[url]http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/tokens/othertokens.htm[/url]
I never dreamied I would ever get my hands on one and jumped on it when it was offered on ebay. Amazingly the seller called it a Manhattan Elevated token. No one else bid for it and I got it for an amazing low $6.00.
I hope the link works if not cut & paste the link.
Allan
You're back on SubTalk, remember? Regular html works on subtalk. The [url][/url] is only on Harry's Forum!
I confess i never figured out how to use regular html.
So when you find a working link on this forum, right click your mouse on the page, and then click "view source" and see how it was done.
: )
Oh yes,
The IRT DID have a token that they were going to use when they were able to raise their fare. They had taken NYC to court and were confident of victory. However they lost the case and it forced them into receivership.
This was before unification in 1940.
Was this really why the IRT entered receivership? I'd never heard this before. (I've never heard any other explanation either, and have wondered why it did.)
Mvh Tim
It was the main reason.
The IRT could not operate at a profit or break even as long as the fare remained 5 cents. As a result costs outweighed the revenues and hence bankrupcy and receivership.
That makes sense to me. I'd just never heard the whole token story before. Thanks.
Mvh Tim
Then as soon as the City took over the IRT & BMT they raised the fare.
Mr rt__:-(
"Then as soon as the City took over the IRT & BMT they raised the fare."
Not until 1948.
As a member of AVA, American Vecturist Assoc. I can help you with this. They have a catolog of mass transit tokens, mostly in the USA.
From page 383 of their 5th edition (1996):
- Observe = Interboro Rapid Transit Co. IRT
- Reverse = Good For One Fare IRT
No production number available & I don't see any others labeled IRT.
Also in the Manhattan section are:
- 3rd Ave RxR (Omnibus logo)
- 3rd Ave RxR (Streetcar logo)
- 3rd Ave RxR "To Cable Line"
- NYC Transit Sys "Manhattan Bus Div. Transfer Token", from 1949
- Comprehensive Omnibus Corp., from 1935
- same, from 1944
- East Side Omnibus Corp., from 1933 & 1944
- Ave B & East Broadway, from 1947, 1951 & 1952
- N Y St Ry Co 1900, from 1968
- N Y Trolley Car Co., from 1986
- H & M, from 1946 & 1951
- PATH, from 1963
- TBTA (various sizes & values)
From Brooklyn:
- B&QTC Transfer Token
- B&QTC 1/2 Fare Token
- NYC BMT Div. Transfer Token, from 1940
- NYC BMT Div. 1/2 Fare Token, from 1941
From Queens:
- Green Bus ....
- Jamaica Buses ...
- Triboro Coach ...
- North Shore Bus ...
- Queensboro Bridge (two, one trolley & one bus logo)
- Steinway Transit ...
- LIRR (Dashing Dan logo) ... this is a nice large token, but hard to acquire, I was able to trade for ONE.
Note that I have abreviated the above to save space.
I have many mass transit tokens in my collection, but don't have most of the above, however as many of you might expect I happen to have some of the Steinwy & Queensboro Bridge tokens.
Please e-mail me privately if you want to talk about membership in AVA (you have to be sponcered), or the purchase of tokens.
Mr t :^)
Thank you Thurston.
They didn't indicate a mint year on the listing?
Allan
Not for the IRT token.
Sometimes they do & sometimes they don't. It appears that they have spent more effort on this information on the more recent tokens.
Mr rt :^)
I was responding to a query on another board reagrding the wheelchair seats on the new cars.
We all know that the fold down seats snap up quickly and with a loud bang whenever someone sitting on them gets up. It gets real annoying to everyone else in the car.
I was wondering though about the T/Os or C/Rs. It must scare the hell out of them when it it happens in their car since those seats are directly behind the cab.
Anyone got some insights on this?
The first time I heard it on the R-143, I came out of the cab. I thought someone fell.
-Mark
They are worthless as there are no points to secure the wheelchair from moving. They are also an annoyance to Carbody Men as they come up as a 'point of lubrication.' Perhaps the floor could be made as slippery as the seating...equality for all. CI Peter
Good point ... on many handicapped accessible vehicles, there is SOME form of "lockdown" be it floor clamps or someplace to put a bungee cord (hey, we ain't got a lot of money upstate, cobs 'R' us) ...
on many handicapped accessible vehicles, there is SOME form of "lockdown"
Anybody know if the is any such thing on the HBLR or NCS cars?
on many handicapped accessible vehicles, there is SOME form of "lockdown"
Anybody know if there is any such thing on the HBLR or NCS cars?
What font does Amtrak use in the Northeast Corridor timetable? I use "Acela Fonts" because this is font used on Acela related matters.
Chaohwa
First, I would like to thank Dave Pirmann for bringing back Sub-Talk. Secondly, who from the Sub-Talk group will be attending any of the CERA (Central Electric Railfans Association) activities Memorial Day weekend? I am looking forward to it, and it will be my pleasure to meet you guys.
Me ... but you knew that. :)
Did Dan Joseph call you about a swap of events Fri & Sat? Newark City Subway was changed to Friday (because it doesn't run on Saturday) and BHRA tour was changed to Saturday.
I don't think the HBLR trip was changed, though.
I will definitely be going to the Fri & Sat night meetings, and the events on Sat, Sun & Mon.
--Mark
Yes he did. The HBRL is still a go. It also looks a go for Shore Line Tues. the 28th. Danny is arranging a ride from Conn. Limo, or from a fellow Chicagoan's brother who lives in New York. His flight leave at 7:00 pm, mine at 6:30. Also where is these meetings at, 2125 W. 13th St. in Brooklyn , what stop do I get off at? Or should I just meet you somewhere and you lead the way?
Last time I spoke with your contact at Shoreline he was all prepaired for you'll arrivial Tuesday.
Mr rt :^)
If that's where the R-16 is (PS-248), it would be the W to 25th Ave, then walk on 86th St a few blocks east (you would see the Culver El in front of you in the distance; you'd be walking in the same direction the W train is going before it makes its right turn onto Stillwell Ave. The school would be in front of you on the right side of the street; can't miss the big training center sign). I got a 2 page flyer from Dan with directions to all the sites .... did you get one?
I found it really funny getting a January 2002 subway map and 7 day MetroCard from a Chicago address! :)
Not sure I'll be able to hook up with you Friday before the meeting since I'll probably drive in right after work.
Anyway, I'll talk to you well before then ....
--Mark
I am going on the redbird trip. Backwards fitted yankee cap with a 1 train shirt and an MTA vest stickin outta my pant pocket.
I'll be on the Redbird trip.
Has anyone here gotten the tix for that yet?
I'll be one of you Operators at BERA on Tuesday. I'm there Monday (so I'll miss the Dtype trip) and haven't got dispatcher approval (wife) to go to the redbird trip yet. Still working on it.
Hey guys! It's great to have Subtalk back now, and just coincidentally I got back from Hong Kong yesterday after visiting with me relatives there. And I have to tell you guys (and this is practically like a railfan's dream) that Hong Kong's government is probably one of the most railway-friendly governments I have ever seen.
In 2000, the Hong Kong government published a report that recommended a vast expansion of both the subway and the commuter rail network. Some of them are still under construction, a small number complete, while some are almost ready to be opened for the public. And it all started with the Lantau Airport Railway back in '97.
For the 15 days I was there, I traveled on all the major rail routes in Hong Kong, squeezed between shopping and stuff like that...and not to mention a whole lotta pics and stuff that I've yet to get to sorting out so I can write the stuff up for Dave.
Trust me, guys, if you are a true railfan, you will want to be paying attention to Hong Kong in the next 10 year or so. The developments there are endless...When I go back there again later this year, the Tseung Kwan O subway line will have opened. I can't wait for that to open up...
*sigh* So much railway, so little time.
-J!
Did you ride on that huge outdoor escalator? Supposedly it dwarfs even the long escalators in the DC Metro.
Just got word off of CNN a few minutes ago that there was a train-on-truck collision down in the Lone Star State, with several cars off the tracks and a possible fatality. Anyone reading this may want to go to their website for more info.
Here's the link:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/05/15/train.derailment/index.html
Umm...that story is about a derailment in Florida. I can't seem to find any articles on a Texas derailment at CNN.com.
Mark
The CNN story is screwed up. The dump truck hit the train. It's yesterday's story.
"Freight train derails in Indiantown
Associated Press
A freight train collided with a dump truck on Wednesday, derailing eight cars and injuring the driver of the truck, authorities said.
The derailment temporarily delayed Amtrak service north and south of the wreck and caused a temporary closing of a 10-mile stretch of Florida Highway 710, said Pembrook Burrows, a spokesman for the Florida Highway Patrol.
"For some unknown reason (the truck) failed to stop. It struck the crossing gate that was in the down position and also struck the first car that was behind three engines," Burrows said.
The driver of the truck, Marcos Rojas, 58, of Indiantown, was taken by helicopter to St. Mary's Medical Center in West Palm Beach. Rojas was in serious condition, hospital spokesman Don Chester said.
Burrows said the southbound train, which left behind a zigzag trail of cars, was carrying molasses and sludge when the collision happened at 1:05 p.m. The truck, operated by Tampa Farm Services in Indiantown, was hauling chicken manure.
A hazardous material team was called to the scene to check for any ammonium nitrate leaks. Burrows said there was only residue of the fertilizer at the bottom of one of the cars and no leakage.
Florida Highway 710 was expected to reopen at 6 p.m., Burrows said.
Husein Cumber, a spokesman for the Florida East Coast Railway, said the north-south tracks where the derailment occurred are owned by the FEC but used only by South Central Florida Express, which also is responsible for their maintenance. A South Central Florida Express spokeswoman declined comment.
Cars at the rear of the derailed train remained upright, but temporarily blocked CSX Transportation tracks that parallel the east-west highway. The rear cars were uncoupled and were rolled clear of the CSX tracks at 3:15 p.m., allowing an Amtrak train to pass through a few minutes later.
Howard Riefs, an Amtrak spokesman, said a northbound train from Miami was delayed 90 minutes and a southbound train from New York was delayed about 30 minutes.
Cumber said the derailed train was traveling to Fort Pierce, where the FEC picks up South Central Florida cars for its main line along the coast.
Indiantown is about 33 miles northwest of West Palm Beach."
Newly posted article on the 'Chicago-L.org' website:
City's big idea: 2nd transit loop
-- Ed Sachs
Sounds like an excellent plan to me... Here's hoping Chicago can pull it off. I especially like the idea of banning new parking garages in the Loop. Finally, a progressive transit policy!
The nice thing about the idea is that only about a mile of new subway would have to be built, and at one end of the proposed route, there's already a never-used flying junction in the Blue Line subway at Milwaukee/Lake that could be utilized.
-- David
Chicago, IL
As some may know (David Cole comes to mind), the former "Air Line" right of way that runs along Chicago's southern lakefront and then takes a westward turn at McCormack Place, is due to be closed in the next few years. I wonder if there is any practical way to use the the right of way westward from McCormack Place to tie the IC Electric commuter line service into the commuter services that use Union Station. Presently, there is no connection between the two. Any ideas?
There has been some informal discussion about using the Air Line as a ROW for rapid transit access between Union Station and McCormick Place. It would form the southern leg of an "outer Loop" that would have Clinton Street as the western leg, the IC trench as the eastern leg, and the abandoned railroad ROW along the north bank of the Chicago River as the northern leg. (A bit more ambitious than the recently-proposed "outer Loop" discussed on another thread here.) However, this would require a huge amount of construction, including two new river crossings. I'm personally all in favor of such an idea, but there have been no formal proposals yet.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It would be very exciting to achieve all of the inter-connectivity implied in such a circular routing. As a Hyde Parker, I am all in favor.
What happened to that other, larger loop idea that was proposed a month or two ago? Did the politicans already forget about it? I think both ideas are good, but we'd only see one or the other and not both.
Sorry about the outage there. I was doing some necessary db work.
-Dave
p.s. let me know if you see anything odd.
SubTalk is back, so how about a Field Trip. Am getting tired of just going home after work !
BTW, Lets wait until our friends from Chicago have come & gone Memorial Day week-end (yes I know Sea Beach Fed is coming too, but he's just one amoung many).
Mr rt
It would be nice to do another A line trip to the beaches with the N33 to Long Beach. Today was absolutely beautiful down there, a nice sea breeze blowing as I walked the boardwalks at Long and Atlantic (yes Atlantic beach has a boardwalk also).
I hated to come back north tonight and back into the heat and poor air quality of northern Nassau county.
For some reason I've always liked elevateds by the shore (S.Brooklyn, Rockaways) versus the Bronx, I guess there's nothing like a sea breeze blowing through that front window.
That's what Mr. T has in mind...
I pity da fool ... (sorry)
Keeping true to form, Mr. T prefers ground transportation to flying...;-D
Hey ... if the TRAIN don't go there, no need for me to either. :)
And if Amtrak gets canned, no need for ME to see "America" ... upstate New York is "America" enough for ME ... intercourse Texas.
Intercourse, PA; screw Texas.
Thurston,
I would love to do another subtalk field trip! Perhaps we could ride the #7 line and grab an R62A, and/or ride the R143 on the L. I'm sure you'll be getting a few suggestions, so just wanted to put my two cents in. :-) -Nick
I would be happy to do any of those already mentioned:
- #7 Flushing Line: Since I work at College Point, Main Street is convient for me & I do love those Red Birds.
- Beaches of Rock & Long: This is a long trip, but it is a very pleasent one for those that haven't done it, i.e. we take the "A Train" over Jamaica Bay, then over the old LIRR structure along the Beach, then a very nice bus ride to Long Beach, a short walk to the beach, then home via more buses or LIRR (i.e. no double backing required).
- L line: I do love the window of a Slant 40 going under the East River almost as much as a railfan window on the Brighton.
- Coney Island: Many ways to get there, Nathans once we arrive, then a completely different way to return.
- Bronx: Our friend Andee wants to shows us the sights on the Grand Concourse ... we could do that, then walk to #4 (evening we could take #4 Express North)
So, e-mail me privately if you prefer & once I have a "core" group formed I'll announce the trip. Once formed the route is set, but any who want to tag along are more then welcome !
Those are all nice options, especially Coney if we knew we could get an R32 on the F either coming or going. The increased presence of Slants on the N helps, too. BTW, isn't Sea Beach Fred supposed to make a pilgrimage east later this spring or summer?
Doing the Concourse is a very interesting idea due to all those unusual multi-level station structures- despite the fact that the chances of getting a railfan window range from slim (on the 4) to none (on the D).
The Far Rock/Long Beach jaunt we did last summer was lots of fun, if late-running. A Friday's probably best for that, especially in June when it stays light the latest.
There's never been an organized Canarsie line trip all the way from Manhattan as far as I can remember. Aside from the Junction and ROW to Canarsie, the various underground platform mosiacs are worth a look as well. Besides, the railfan window's days may be severely limited on that line.
Since I get off my job in LIC at 4:00, it's easy for me to get nearly anywhere.
Hope to get together soon.
"Those are all nice options, especially Coney if we knew we could get an R32 on the F either coming or going"
The R-32 on the F is great for when going through the 63rd street connector as well!! -Nick
Done that, been there .... and yes it is a nice run.
Lou from Brooklyn did it on a E last year when they were diverting them.
Mr rt__:^)
In the winter someone posted the stations that were selling the "Red, White, and Blue" Metrocards. Anyone have any info on new ones? Thanks.
They (there are two versions) are the last NEW ones to come out.
We heard that the TA solved the problem & can/is now sell adv. space on them again, but that was some months ago.
Mr rt
Saw it around 11:00am as a test train in simulated service on the (5) line today...
Another one of the sidelined junkies now coming out of the closet...btw, whatever happened to 6366-6370/6376-6380? Haven't seen that sucker since two weeks ago...good thing I got my pic when I saw it...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Trainsets are receiving updated mods by vendors and now are being released as the last of the #2s and first of the #5s. 6300-6304 and another trainset were in at 239th the other day....NEW and CLEAN. More to come, more good news to come, more R142s on the #5, better than ever and more reliable. CI Peter. We're CED - WE MAKE TRAINS GO
Where did 6300 come from, I heard of 6301. But not 6300!
6366-70 and 6376-80 are testing as a set, as is 6371-75 and 6386-90.
-Stef
If anybody is interested, the Transit Museum at Grand Central Station has a few number plates in the 7400’s range. There are about 20 to 25 plates selling for 5 bucks each.
Do you know if they are selling any straphangers or rollsigns?
No.
Those items they do not have.
Haven't seen any straphangers or rollsigns. If I do, I'll post it.
Straphangers being sold at......
LOT 76 NYC Antiques & Props
which is located at
76 EAST HOUSTON STREET
(212) 505-8699
(saw them personally)
6 train to Bleecker
walk 3 blocks East.
Why would they sell number plates at the Post Office? Wouldn't it better to have it at Grand Central Terminal in NY (lol).
such a wiseass.....
I was on the Q Express yesterday and some cops came on. I was leaning on the door on a train with seats. Just out of curiousity, can the cops give out a summons for leaning on a door?
If they have a mind to. By leaning on the doors you could techinically prevent them from opening and thus be interfereing with the operation of the train. But unless they are in a really bad mood they won't even give you a 2nd glance.
Just to let you know I have seen TA President Larry Reuter on an A train and he was leaning on the doors.
I don't think so. Unless you're preventing the cops from moving some place, they won't even know you're there. Any crowded subway train in NYC will have people leaning on the doors. If we had such a policy, it would get too annoying.
I don't believe there is a policy on this, however cops have been known to enforce "annoying" laws before. A few years ago a man violated the rule of taking up more than 1 seat (he put his bags on the seat next to him). It's against the law to do this, so the cop took him off the train (so he missed the train), and issued him a ticket worth $50. I can understand the situation if it occured during rush hour, but this is a "blue" law to begin with, and the incident occured on a Sunday morning when the train was empty. -Nick
With all these CAF cars running in Washington having problems, not leaning on the doors is their (WMATA) way of saying "We don't trust the doors and these cars. If you fall out when the doors opens for no reason - we told you so".
Phil Hom
That applies to all MetroRail cars. They say if one leans to hard, they can malfunction. That really applies to any subway car, if you think about it, but WMATA doors seem more prone to it.
DNLOD in NYCTA doesn't refer to malfunction in systems control but an answer to a lawsuit applied when someone fell out somehow (presumably at a station platform when the doors opened.) So, every carbody guy must make sure all doors have the DNLOD stickers! CI Peter
Jamaica yard refuses to put the stickers on! All the others have the stickers on every single door leaf, and in the case of the R-142/a storm doors it's ridiculously redundant.
Why would it be redundant? Isn't it possible if you're leaning on a storm door that you could be injured if somebody opens it without any prior warning?
I think he meant that since the 142 and 142As have "double" storm doors, that it looks rediculously redundant.
If you make it, they'll lean on it.
NO.
I saw this on the ad panels (one of those MTA SubTalk safety ads) where it said something like "It's dangerous to lean on doors. And you block other people's way."
There is also one about "Do not hold doors and that it's dangerous if you get caught and get dragged because of it."
In fact, you're putting your own status at risk if you lean on doors, lest if anything serious does happen because of it.
Now I realize why they have the DNLOD stickers....I jammed the door of an R142 once...and Only once. I bumped my back against the door and i heard some sort of click noise, which made me back off the door instantly, so on the next stop, only the door on the right opened.
Some serious problems on the R142 then. I constantly get my back bumped on the R40 and R68 doors on the Brighton Line. No problems on those.
Hi,I still can't reach you email, both the first one I tried from the messageboard and the one from the email you sent to me.
In any event. I'm in for the trip you have planned for this weekend. Could you fill me in (preferably by email) on the day and exact time? I believe you said the 18th (Saturday), but I don't recall a time.
Thanks
PIggo/Bill
This coming Tuesday is Pennsylvania's Primary Election Day, and it is a very important race. Democrats Ed Rendell (former DNC chairman, Philly mayor, Philly DA) and Bobby Casey Jr. (Auditor general, son of former gov.) will face off for the final candidate.
I AM STRONGLY ENCOURAGING ALL REGISTERED DEMOCRATS TO VOTE FOR EDWARD G. RENDELL
If anyone lives in Philadelphia, I am sure you are aware of the many great things he has done as Philadelphia's most popular mayor in at least 100 years.
But to keep this on topic, I did find one transit-related issue that makes Ed Rendell stand out from the rest.
HE OPENLY SUPPORTS EXTRA FUNDING FOR PENNSYLVANIA'S PUBLIC TRANSIT GROWTH AND EXPANSION
He is the only candidate to do so. We all know SEPTA is underfunded, and there are projects all over the state in financial trouble, and ED RENDELL is the only candidate for governor who can address these problems the way we want them addressed!!!!
He also is the only candidate who has campaigned and encouraged people to vote inside an El station. Yesterday, he and his posse were trying to encourage the voters at the Allegheny station in North Kensington.
I don't know if promoting politics is a good idea on here, but at least you related it to transit. -Nick
I wouldn't normally promote politics here. But I am a tremendous supporter of Ed Rendell, and he is a tremendous supporter of mass transit.
Ok, fair enough :-) -Nick
I receive NJT Alerts via e-mail. There is police activity at the Plauderville Station on the Bergen Line. One train, number 59 to Port Jervis, is indefinately delayed at Plauderville. Shuttles are replacing trains between Garfield and Ridgewood. Main Line trains are not affected. In addition, a MNRR train is delayed due to a different reason. But anyway, since the train was indefinately held (and now cancelled) at Plauderville, was there something going on on board the train? NJT now reports one track open with extensive delays of up to over two hours on various trains.
Originally, I thought I had heard that the Airtrain was supposed to open in 3 phases-- the inner loop this year, the Howard Beach connection at the end of the year, and the Jamica connection (completing the system) next year. Now I hear that Howard beach and the inner loop will open together. But passing by on the A, it looks like the Howard Beach terminal is a long way from completed (only a stell skeleton is up in places). I hope the opening is not getting pushed back because of this. I wish they would just open up the inner terminal loop first, because some of those stations looked nearly complete almost a year ago.
What is the projected opening now anyway?
While I'm sure it won't happen, I'd be very very happy indeed if the Airtrain section running out to Long-Term Parking would be open by August 11th. That's when we're flying out of JFK* to our vacation in Arizona, and I dread having to deal with those ghastly shuttle buses.
* = which is assuming, of course, that America West is still in business then. They may not be in as dire straits as US Airways, but they shouldn't be buying green tomatoes, if you catch my drift.
It would be nice if it were to open before November so that I can try it out when I come over for Subway Tour No 9. Last year Rob Morel Wayne Whitehorne, and myself used the Newark version, which, although it resembles a James Bond type monorail seemed to be very efficient.
Simon
Swindon UK
ANyone know of a map online somewhere of the future Airtrain?
Go to the JFK Airtrain website and follow the Gallery of Images link... which I found after doing a five second search on "airtrain" using Google.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
hey all, glad to see the talks back up. talk to you all soon.
Bought a slide scanner that actually does a decent job and didn't cost me my first-born or bodily parts. So I put my LIRR slide collection from the 1960's (when I was in my early teens) and 1970's into binariy files, and they are now available on CD-ROM.
Rather than set a price (and insult anyone...including myself) I am experimenting by listing the CD-ROM at EBay. If anyone is interested, the item number is....2103223494. Auction ends this weekend!!
In car 1616 or 1617, in the priority seat area there is a 2 person bucket seat- it is in the dark color and looks like a stretched 62 seat. Where did this come from?
That car (1616)was involved in a fire so the seats were replaced in that 5 car set. If I am not mistaken those cars have Yankke stickers on the side .
Whydo the R-46 have always have musk,mold,humid,tad bit of urine,suffy, public bathroom (no sharp smell) smell to them?
That is a good question. I have sometimes noticed some kind of odor while riding the R-46s. I think you might have the odor on the R-44s too.
I haven't been to NYC for 6 years now so I can't comment on the "current smell". I do remember, though, when the R-46 were brand new...I found their "new car smell" to be rather pleasant.
The current smell is a musty sort of odor.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah I know what you mean, the R44's and R46's seem to have damp air in them, and the A/C is not very good. Heck, I've been on some Redbirds that had better A/C.
As far as car "smells", the Redbirds have a nice old cozy old railcar smell to them, and some of them actually smell like citrus (must be a TA cleaning fluid).
ummm, I love the smell of Abestos in the morning!...;-D
I wonder where the musty smell comes from on the R-44s and the R-46s.
#3 West End Jeff
>>I wonder where the musty smell comes from on the R-44s and the R-46s.<<
#3 West End Jeff
Probably from the armpits of some of the riders.
Bill "Newkirk"
John, with that sensative nose of yours I'm sure I think I know of a job that's right up your alley. "Truffle Hunter"
Actually I have smelled that smell you described more common in R-40M and R-42, even a few R-32s.
>>>... (must be a TA cleaning fluid). <<<
That stuff makes me gag. If I get on a freshly mopped car I have to move.
Peace,
ANDEE
Because those cars stink-they're also slow bouncy and dull.
Give me an R32 anyday before 1 of these lunks of junk.
#3768 E Queens Blvd 8 Ave Express
Could be dirty AC units, or poor air quality at the Jamaica Yard.
I often worry that the fake wood will attract fake termites.
;-D Andrew
I noticed that on some R46's. And there is this weird smell also on the R62/62A's, is it the same one?
BTW: Is it me or does evereything in the subway have it's own body odoor?
The car Cleaners dont clean the cars well. they just wipe the floor with the cleaning solution, which stinks on its own, with the dirt on the floor, it mixes, rots and the residue that is left produces the smell.
>>The car Cleaners dont clean the cars well. they just wipe the floor with the cleaning solution, which stinks on its own, with the dirt on the floor, it mixes, rots and the residue that is left produces the smell<<
They use a citrus based cleaner in the mop bucket. Perhaps they ran out of it and substituted Gatorade instead !
Bill "Newkirk"
R62(A)'s smell nice, especially during times (nights) where the train isn't very crowded and you don't have over 100 people breathing in the good air.
Any comments?
I'm back on Sub Talk just like a number of you. Since the Hiatus I've acquired a black T-shirt with the letter "W" on it which is the letter name of what was once the BMT West End Line #3 train. I'll try to wear it when ever I'm on the subways so anyone out there will know that it is me. It is getting a little warm for me to wear my little black hood so I'm dispensing with it for the summer though I should keep it with me if I wind up on a freezing cold car where the A/C is too strong. Speak of subway cars I rode a train of R-68As on the West End line on April 30th to and from Coney Island. The R-68As do not make the same annoying noise as the R-68s. How come the R-68s make the annoying noise and not the R68As.
#3 West End Jeff
Hi all,
Please let me know if there's any outdated maps that needs updating from this website(Please only from current maps, not the historial maps.
Thanks,
Michael Calcagno
Mike: The ltates NYCT map is 3/2002 and is idenitical to the 1/02 map witht he exception of WTC on the E being reopened (without ADA access) and a new Transit Museum Gallery ad.
Your map on the site already shows WTC on the E as open so you are fine.
BTW- the WTC station has plywood with a decent paint job in NYCT Beige blocking the area where you used to enter the WTC. Last visit I made to the station, the booth was still closed as were the turnstiles. Exit and entry is via the HEETs. The street stairway exit on the East side by the newststand (which was still closed)is open. Both newststands- the one inside the paid area and the one outside were still closed (in fact the one outside is behind the plywood as is the booth asm of my last visit. The passageway to the IRT is open.
You could make up new maps for some systems...
-J!
According to a TA sup't I spoke with the other day, the TA would like to impliment OPTO to the M shuttle effective with the fall pick of 9/8/02. I neglected to ask her about the plan for weeknights. However, a few people I know who work downtown told me the plan is for Saturday, Sunday and holiday schedules only starting with the midnight shift Saturdays and concluding with the PM shift Sundays. There is one big hitch: continuing reliability problems with the R143. A decision to impliment must be made by the end of June when the t/o's and c/r's start to pick the jobs. Otherwise, OPTO will be held off till the Spring 2003 pick.
I thought the 143 was doing very well, passed the 30 day test in record time, etc. What's going on?
Well to be honest there seems to be propulsion problems going thru the tubes, Its not a major problem but crews have complained enough on the "air" about it. Also look for 3 new sets out of pitkin yard to start service this week. Those were the primary school car trains.Plus Coney Island yard has already recieved 24 slant r 4o's from the L which have already begun service on the N and Q .
I could swear I remember that several years back, before the express tracks on the Broadway Line were in regular service, there were some G.O.'s where N and R trains would skip Prince and 8th Streets, but not 23rd or 28th Streets, or vice-versa. However, according to the track maps and my own personal observations, there are no switches between the local and express tracks anywhere between south of Prince Street to north of 34th Street. So, how did they handle these G.O.'s?
- Lyle Goldman
My guess is maybe they were doing station work, not track work. In which case, they didn't need to move things off the local track. So the trains just skipped by the stations, but on the local.
There was major station work done at all 4 of those stations in preparation for the MB service switching from north side to south. All 4 were closed in one direction for several months; first one side, then the other side.
While the work was going on at all 4 stations, trains ran on the express track. I don't remember any time when only 2 stations of the 4 were skipped, but they certainly would have had to use the local track to do that.
I will never be able to understand why the work being done was started in the year before the Manhattan bridge flip. They had many years to do the work without the added traffic, with flexibility of reroutes to the express track whenever needed. Instead, they did some of the major work before the flip, but left the local stations a mess.
I will admit though that they're looking pretty good now. Is there a scheduled completion date?
There does appear to have been a junction just north of Union Square, where there is a stretch of track which has no stel girders between the local & express tracks. IIRC, Union Square was a terminal for a time back when the Bway line was under construction, so switches had to exist. Anyone know when/why they were removed?
Perhaps some "genius" either in the BMT Co. (pre 1940), the Board of Transportation in the 1940's or the TA starting in 1953 felt the switches were not necessary and had them removed.
I've heard some very large numbers mentioned for the annual cost to maintain a switch, for periodic inspection/lubrication/etc. and if the numbers I heard were accurate, I can see why they remove them when they aren't needed for normal operation.
Yeah, the bean counters are always looking to "redundant" switches.
There is a theoretical cost of maintenance (actual cost if the
maintenance is actually performed according to theory!). If the
switch is removed, then track and signal show an annual cost
savings, woo-hoo. Of course, no one even figures the "soft costs"
of NOT having that switch there. Think about lost time during a delay
because of less operating flexibility to re-route. Then again, my
theory of dispatching around laid-down trains is much more aggressive
than current practice.
That stretch hasn't changed since the late 60s.
I still wonder if there was ever a switch just south of 23rd St. on the 8th Ave. line n/b.
I was actually thinking of G.O.'s that occurred long before the Manhattan Bridge switch. Actually, it was so long ago that I could be misremembering and all four stations were skipped.
- Lyle Goldman
How are the R143s holding up on the L ? How bad are the teething pains and how do these troubles relate the the initial pains of the R142/R142A?
What is the main problem if there is a main problem?
How many cars are o site?
I cant talk for the R143s, but the R142a is doing well. It seems like the R142s are finally getting their problms worked out. We'll see by the year's end.
The R-143s are getting off the ground slowly but every indication is that they are doing better than their A division cousins. At last count, there were 57 cars on the property. Of those:
8 are in service.
8 are having CBTC installed.
8 are having the R-160 prototype door system installed for the 1 year qualification test.
8 are being used for RTO crew training.
The rest are undegoing the acceptance proces.
"8 are in service. "
There have been 16 in service for at least the last 2 months.
That's true. Mark has a unique perspecitve on the 143's. He's the man in the know on those cars...
(see, Mark I CAN give you a compliment...;-D
Not according to the Car Maintenance Computer system. As of Thursday, only 40 R-143s have been accepted. & Not according to the General Supt. at East NY. When that 2nd train goes into service, East NY is supposed to give Coney Island a train and Coney Island is supposed to transfer another 4-car R-68 link to Concourse Shop.
The L line was running two 8 car R143's in service on Thursday and Friday. I rode to work in car 8111 on Thursday, so it looks like a little transfer is due for CI/CCYD.
Sorry Z-Man but 8111 was part of the 2nd 8-car train accepted. All that means is that one of the 3 trains that were O/S for the reasons stated, was running in service. Look for the 814X or 815X cars
Oh I see. It's a little more complicated than it looks. Thanx TD.
BTW all, they were testing 8117-8120 on Friday.
Where are they being tested?
There are two (2) sets in service. 8101-8108, 8109-8116. Then again... Why should you believe me? I only work on the L line.
Mark, I don't think that there is any call for your contentiousness. I know exactly where you work. The fact is that RTO may not be using the 2nd train temporarily for training but and so 16 cars may be in service. However, the 6th train had not been released to service as of Thursday. Why believe me? I only have access to the official records.
Mark, I don't think that there is any call for your contentiousness. I know exactly where you work. The fact is that RTO may not be using the 2nd train temporarily for training and so 16 cars may be in service. This may be temporary or this may be permanent. However, the 6th train (cars 41 through 48) had not been released to service as of Thursday. Why believe me? I only have access to the official records.
The L has two AND school car has their own. School car briefly had two about a month ago.
As of about 30 minutes ago, just 40 cars (R-143) show as having been accepted for service. This is 8 more than in my original post in this thread. So now we have:
2 trains in service
1 O/S for RTO trining
1 for CBTC
1 for door system engineering
Damned network admins ... I'd suggest a road trip instead of wondering why. :)
where is this said?
Actually, it's said by me. I checked it through the Car maintenance Computer "Fleet/Class Situation" menu. As for where the trains are allocated, I got that from a senior manager who is directly involved with the R-143 program. I hope you find these sources reliable enough.
Which line will use the ENY train and which line loses the R68?
A few R40s will probably be shifted to Coney Island to maintain fleet commonality. A set of R68s will leave. Cars aren't exactly assigned to one line exclusively. There is always a chance for different equipment. This weekend there were R40s on the Q Local and the W Line's R68As were put everywhere.
> 8 are having the R-160 prototype door system
What is the nature of this door system, and how does it differ from the door system currently used on the cars in service?
- Lyle Goldman
Also, which car #'s have this new door system? -Nick
Good to see the Train Dude back here!!! My pick is Wednesday. CI Peter
One thing about Kawasaki Industries is that when a serious problem is discovered, they send down their engineers and experienced techs to take a close look. When a serious problem is discovered in the R142, it's the CIs/supervisors/DS that have to drag BombaDuhs into the mess. On an entire ten car trainset, I found MOST of the battery terminal nuts UNTORQUED to 12 pounds and propulsion crew found shoe beam mounting hardware loose and hidden behind fiberglas cap nuts (torque is 50 pounds.) Our 180th Street GO is NOT to allow vendors to do work unobserved or unattended...quality is job one and Kawasaki wins hands down. CI Peter
>>8 are having CBTC installed.<<
Wouldn't it be easier to have it installed at the factory ?
>>8 are having the R-160 prototype door system installed for the 1 year qualification test<<
Can you elaborate on this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
">>8 are having the R-160 prototype door system installed for the 1 year qualification test<<
Can you elaborate on this ?"
Before any vendor can sell any new system tot he NYCT, the product must undergo a one year qualification test. I'm not aware which vendor is involved nor do I know what the nature of the system is.
Nice to have you back on the board, Train Dude.
Is there a major difference between the R-160 and R-143 doors?
I have not seen either system. The systems may be identical and this may be a new vendor endeavouring to become qualified to bid on future contracts.
what seems to be the biggest problem(s)? I think the A Division had door and brake problems.
I don't think that there are any major problems with the R-143 cars. It's more that the folks at East NY are simply not rushing the cars into service. Instead, they are making sure that the vendor meets all of their responsibilities as set forth in the contract.
The R-142s apparently are undergoing a slightly different and faster acceptance process.
Well its a Mix here in the IRT. It seems that E 180 are putting trains into in service status as fast as they come in but the Line supervision are not that fast to put them on the road. The supervision on the No.5 Line are not that crazy about these new trains they keep putting it off. The first set should have been in service in March. Now they are playing catch up we now have 7 sets in service but they don't run on weekends. Some only run during Rush Hours. Out of 7 Sets after 8PM you may only see 2 sets.
When I was riding the L line on Monday 13th May, there were definitely at least two trains of R143s in service; I rode on two different ones. And I seem to remember seeing at least one more R143 train passing us going the other way. The two cars I rode in were 8110 (with the recorded voice not working and the interior station-name indicator wrongly saying "Last stop" all the way along the line), and 8104 (electronics o.k.)
Fytton
In order to keep (ahem) "politics" off subtalk (though it will adversely affect the MTA as well as many other things) I wrote my thoughts over on Harry's place with a bit of word that the budget has been passed (due April 1) ...
http://www.nycrail.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/messages/2138.html
Don't want to start a bad trend here after things have started off so nicely and I know "politics" is a bad thing here ... so drop by and have at it.
Well it seems that the Second Avenue Subway was really coming close to becoming a reality then a dream for subway riders, and subway buffs, the most famous never built line, actully being built. Then when 9/11 occured, it seems the Second Avenue Subway was thrown in the garbage, thrown in the dump truck, crushed and is not on a barge out to sea. So who here believes that the odds of a full length Second Avenue Subway (Express and Local Lines) will ever happen, or do you think, that if there is 1 will it be a flop, or you believe that it will never happen.
I think that they will build it. Maybe we ride on in in 2012???
I think the FOOLS will make it a two track line.
Go ahead, save the buck now and then spend them all over again when people begin to grow brains again. : )
My guess reading the NYS "budget documents" is that the hopes of a second avenue subway are *DEAD* ... period. But Joe Bruno, Senate Majority leader DID get his AA minor league Baseball stadium and a frachise for the trailer park community of East Greenbush (near Troy NY) at "Hudson Valley Community College") ...
But given a 20% cutback, first thing the MTA will need to do to save the bacon after New York got screwed is to kill the SAS project in order to keep wigs' paychecks coming while T/O's get ... ummm ... "early retirement" ... seriously, we're all screwed ...
let's all ***PLEASE*** not respond to my rantings here ... I know Dave doesn't appreciate "politics" on this site ... already spewed my spleen on this elsewhere - for now, Uncle Harry seems to be tolerating it only because we were regulars there BEFORE the "hiatus" so I'm genuinely concerned about not farting in church here. (heh)
If you want at it, take it offsite to Unca Harry's "Other side of the tracks (NYCRAIL.ORG) so as to not defecate here on the topic:
http://www.nycrail.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/messages/2138.html
But hey, we all got rich on that taxcut, so a little loss of the SAS was WELL worth it. =)
(My guess reading the NYS "budget documents" is that the hopes of a second avenue subway are *DEAD* ... period.)
My guess is that after preliminary design, they will present the federal government with a bill for $20 billion, or about the entire FTA budget for new starts for the next 20 years. The federal government will say no, so they'll compromise by getting federal money for suburban improvements like LIRR to GCT. Pataki will take credit for the suburban improvements, blaming others for the lack of the Second Avenue ("I really tried").
The City and State would have had to pay for it themselves. But the massive debt run up in the 2000 to 2004 capital plan -- debt in a boom -- sealed the fate of the Second Avenue. I just hope we don't go back to deferred maintenance.
The City and State would have had to pay for it themselves. But the massive debt run up in the 2000 to 2004 capital plan -- debt in a boom -- sealed the fate of the Second Avenue. I just hope we don't go back to deferred maintenance.
I still think the city and state could have gotten some SAS money out of the feds as part of the September 11 relief package. It wouldn't have been easy, but there was a (brief) window of opportunity during which Washington was unusually generous toward New York. Unfortunately, as much as I like the job Pataki's been doing, he made a big mistake when he made that absurb $54 billion aid request. If he thought it would be a good negotiating tool, he was dead wrong.
Of course, IF the city and state would reduce their demented levels of Medicaid spending, even just a little bit, there'd be plenty of money for transit improvments. And that'll never happen :(
I have a 95 year old acquaintance who is living in a nursing home and a recipient of that demented level of Medicaid spending. She is not exactly receiving lavish care. She has no living relatives. The only ways to divert her care money to transit would be to put her out on the street and let her die, or to reduce her care from barely tolerably adequate to total neglect.
Actually if trhis was ten years ago she would have a much higher level of care in that... Before Pataki people were allowed to have 24/7 home health aides in addition to their section 8, ambulettes (I think they got abulances not abulettes, too), etc.
In my building almost everyone over 65 had a maid, er, aide. When the cuts went thru o one in my building suffered. At first they had to share a few aide but slowly they all stopped coming. Every week Gabe Pressman paraded this old destitute woman that had 24/7 care and would be forced into a home where she would be forced to spend her whole SS check to live.
What is the point?
I don't think the MTA really wants a Second Ave subway. The Lex IRT's farebox likely pays for the cost of the lines 24/7. Why dilutre that with another ROW to maintain. The TWU would not let them get away with an ATO from scratch system and almost everyone wants Station agents and not HEET's and Metrocard machines and of course this would have to run 24/7 so it would be a net money loser. The feds aren;t going to help the Mass Transit subsidy after helping the MTA build this thing at megabucks cost so there is no relief except for more borrowing.
I quite agree.
Medicare - Medicaid are already totally inadequate to the tasks that they are supposed to perform. They need major new sources of funding.
Further, they are simply day-to-day expenses of medical canre and maintenance. That is, they are today's expenses that need to be paid out of today's funds.
On the other hand.
Transit Construction is a capital improvement to city and regional infrastructure, and needs be amortised over a long period of time. For major transit construction, you need to pay the money up front to pay for workers and materials, but the costs need to be spread over a much longer period. 50 or 70 year bond issues would not be unreasonable for a transit line that expected to serve for 100 years or more.
The City and the State, (MUCH LESS SO the Federal Government) need to come up with these funds. If new subway lines were to cost say 200 Billion Dollars (call it 400 Billion when you include interest on bonds) the city, and the states of this region will need to allocate 8 Billion a year for fifty years. That is $1000 per person (man, woman and child) in the city. Don't Look now, but that is about 1/4 of what people are now paying for automobile insurance. So the figure is not *that* far off the wall.
And investment in it's own infrastructure is one of the best things a city or a region can do for itself. I think you will also find that building these rail lines are much cheaper than building similar highways, and who pays for them anyway. Certainly a will planned City and Regional approach to all transit and highway infractucture is needed and the appropriate construction projects be started with out delay, and without regard to Smallbany or Washington. If you put a regional tax on Gasoline (50c a gallon, and $1.00 a gallon on diesel) you will perhaps be able to cover some of our transportation needs.
And remember, these construction projects bring jobs to the area, and employees pay taxes and spend money. And this is a good thing too.
So GET OFF YOUR HANDOUT ASS and get th projects done with local resources! They are there, all you need to do is to ientify them and martial them for your needs. Living in a city is not supposed to be a gimmie-gimmie situation, but rather a helping each other and growing together situation. In other words: The WHOLE CITY *is* your living room, and the money you invest in these "home-improvements" is money spent to enhance your own quality of life.
[/Soapbox]
Elias
"That is $1000 per person (man, woman and child) in the city. Don't Look now, but that is about 1/4 of what people are now paying for automobile insurance."
I wish we could fund the subways with 1/4 of what we pay for auto insurance. But I hate to say it, but my wife and I, in Manhattan, pay $700 for insurance, not $8000.
"I wish we could fund the subways with 1/4 of what we pay for auto insurance. But I hate to say it, but my wife and I, in Manhattan, pay $700 for insurance, not $8000."
Humph... When I used to live on Long Island, (1970s -80s) I thought car insurance was in the $2000/Yr price range. Maybe I had a fancier car (NOT) or more insurance on it.
Oh Well... Don't vote for me because my math was never much better than those elected to the legislature.
: ) Elias
It's pushing 3 kilobucks upstate. AIM should check into what might happen should he ever file a claim. Sounds like "Shifty of Encino" for THAT price. :)
It's State Farm. I have a 1988 car with no collision insurance. I have had an accident on occasion (though State Farm never had to pay out on my behalf).
I guess if I had a nice car with collision, it would be a lot more, so the comparison was slightly unfair.
Also you neglect to mention that State Farm renewals are every six
months, not annually. So just double the figure you stated for the
annual amount. I just upgraded with State Farm from an 88 model to
a 94 model without collision and with discounts, my premium is just
under $800 for SIX MONTHS. That's in Brooklyn, the NO FAULT FRAUD
CAPITOL of the UMPIRE STATE. And I'm entitled to most every discount.
=:)Sparky
My insurance is $360 every 6 months, or $720 annually, which I rounded off to $700. I seem to have a bargain.
It sounds like a bargain, but let me ask some questions without prying. Is the car parked off street and is this location in the
borough of Manhattan?
Also what coverage do you carry besides basic liability? Does this include "Fire & Theft" + "Comprehensive"? You stated it doesn't include Collision because of the age of the vehicle.
I wasn't trying to bust your bubble about the six months, but I've
been State Farm insured for 25+ years and the renewal on my upgrade
for six months is $790. Of course that's for on street parking in
the Borough of Kings, the NO FLAUT FRAUD CAPITOL of PATURKEY LAND.
Spoke to the agent, with all allowable discounts, he tells me you
park it in BROOKLYN. >G<
:=) Sparky
Yikes, I should move my car to NYC! I have liability with no theft or collision, and I pay around $1000 per year for insurance here in Philadelphia.
On the other hand, I only pay $660 per year for SEPTA transpasses. (Actually $840 per year, but my employer uses TransitCheck, saving me $180 per year.)
Mark
Michalovic & Peter Rosa, thanks for the comparisons in costs by geography. I have to be satisfied with a older nice previously
owned vehicle or they would castrate me with collision. Also due
to our physical stature (wife & I), we need a full size vehicle.
The upgrade from a 1988 Olds 88 Delta Royale was to a 1994 Buick
Park Avenue.
Pete, since it's been 25+ years, that I've been with State Farm,
didn't know that it was now standard at all insurers to issue for
six months only. I knows what you means when the children come of age also. >BAM< go the rates. Don't have that problem, so hopefully I'll get as good a service life from the Buick as the Olds. Traded it with 302K. Was the only owner. >G<
:-) Sparky
No comprehensive. If it's stolen, I lose. Plain old liability for $720 per year. They don't ask if I'm parked on street or off, because it doesn't matter for liability.
I looked at my basic liability this AM, and it's $390 for six months
or $780 annual. Equivalent to yours adjusted for geography. Still
keep the comprehensive with a $500 deductible and a few other goodies. Still reasonable in comparison without the collision.
Thanks for the input.
:-) Sparky
Also you neglect to mention that State Farm renewals are every six
months, not annually. So just double the figure you stated for the
annual amount. I just upgraded with State Farm from an 88 model to
a 94 model without collision and with discounts, my premium is just
under $800 for SIX MONTHS. That's in Brooklyn, the NO FAULT FRAUD
CAPITOL of the UMPIRE STATE. And I'm entitled to most every discount.
Just about all car insurance polices are written for six-month terms rather than one-year terms. The shorter terms obviously allow the insurance companies to raise their rates more frequently. In addition, and probably more importantly from the companies' perspectives, it takes less time to drop coverage for a no-longer-welcome customer. Cancelling an auto insurance policy during its term generally is restricted by law to cases of non-payment.
I suppose we're pretty lucky. My wife and I, Suffolk County residents, pay a bit over $2,000 per year for two vehicles, a 2000 Isuzu Rodeo and a 2001 Mitsubishi Eclipse. That's with State Farm, who we've had for years. The bad part is that when my 16 year old stepdaughter gets her license in a month or so, our rates will go up by $1,600 per year. Ouch!
I think you guys are comparing legal liability for the old bomb Vs. the stuff you carry on a new car that the bank owns.
Remember the important factor: inflation. Governments can get money cheaper than anyone else, then generate inflation and the debt becomes worthless :D
(I have a 95 year old acquaintance who is living in a nursing home and a recipient of that demented level of Medicaid spending. She is not exactly receiving lavish care.)
New York State spends double the national average per Medicaid recipient. Yet I believe yoiu when you say that the level of care is not good -- perhaps even worse than elsewhere. What does that say?
I have a 95 year old acquaintance who is living in a nursing home and a recipient of that demented level of Medicaid spending. She is not exactly receiving lavish care.
New York State spends double the national average per Medicaid recipient. Yet I believe yoiu when you say that the level of care is not good -- perhaps even worse than elsewhere. What does that say?
I can answer that using numbers rather than words: 1199
It would be great (and possible) to build by 2012, should the groundbreaking still occur in 2004. NYC is bidding for the 2012 summer games, so having the new line in time for this (should they get the games) would be excellent. As for having only two tracks, that is probably enough. To my knowledge (anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), the second avenue subway is not going to be an IRT line, but will be a semi-express; the only stops will parallel the Lexington avenue line from downtown to 125th street. -Nick
"but will be a semi-express"
Like partially pregnant? eh?
If all trains stop at all stations it cannot be an express.
No, it will not connect with the IRT, even if it stands on its head and wiggles its ears.
But it *could* and *should* extend to the Bronx *eventually*, and then an express run from 125th street to 57th street or so would be appropriate.
In the Bronx it could continue as a new subway line along Third Avenue to Fordham University.
Elias
""but will be a semi-express"
Like partially pregnant? eh?
If all trains stop at all stations it cannot be an express."
Semi-express, meaning there could be up to 40 blocks between each local stop! (i.e. 86th to 125th st.) -Nick
9/11 has had much effect on a lot of things. But one immediate and direct effect has been the erection of a mechanism to restore and actually enhance subway service. A new transit hub in lower Manhattan is in the works; the IRT is being rebuilt as we post.
Significantly The Second Avenue Subway has been identified as a key new service, more needed now because NYC government recognizes just how tenuous automobile routes have become. East Side Access, often linked to Second Av as a pair, becomes a lot more important too, and it is currently under construction, on the Queens side, with the 63rd Street LIRR tunnel having already been built and lengthened to meet the Sunnyside Yard.
So nothing's changed, really. The Second Avenue subway process is on track, with an EIS due at the end of this year.
I think this project will be delayed and finally postponed indefinitely (like happened twice already.) I think this project may come back in another 30 years and those of us still here will be asking the same question of when will be it be built.
Personally, I think it sounds like a broken record.
Hey they get suspended and 20 years after it is used as a excuse for to give money to the mafia/influential people.
Significantly The Second Avenue Subway has been identified as a key new service, more needed now because NYC government recognizes just how tenuous automobile routes have become. East Side Access, often linked to Second Av as a pair, becomes a lot more important too, and it is currently under construction, on the Queens side, with the 63rd Street LIRR tunnel having already been built and lengthened to meet the Sunnyside Yard.
So nothing's changed, really. The Second Avenue subway process is on track, with an EIS due at the end of this year
.
I don't quite grasp the link between the Second Avenue Subway and the tenuousness of automobile routes. If somehow Alien Space Bats were to bring the SAS into existence today, very few of the riders would have switched from driving. The SAS would instead ease overcrowding on the Lexington line, and draw some people from buses.
I certainly would be very happy to see some realistic progress toward the SAS being made, but I'm not holding my breath. There have been too many false starts to think that this time will be different.
The connection to automobiles is really the same rationale as before 9/11, but it is more urgent: in order to accommodate incoming transit and commuter rail traffic, especially now that it is increasing, you need a new line to take pressure off the Lex. Without the SAS, East Side Access is an exercise in advanced sardine canning.
Without the SAS, East Side Access is an exercise in advanced sardine canning.
Quite true, but unfortunately it's highly unlikely that the SAS will be running by the time East Side Access opens.
Without the SAS, East Side Access is an exercise in advanced sardine canning.
That's something that amazes me. The East Side Acess ( a very good project) is set to open way before the SAS. Doesn't it seem logical that the SAS should open before the east side connector? The already jammed Lex will become even more jammed.
Such sardine canning as they might be forced to build a proper 2nd Av Line...
"Without the SAS, East Side Access is an exercise in advanced sardine canning."
How so? The Lex bottlenecks are the downtown express all the way from 86th to Fulton St, and the downtown local to 42nd (it empties out significantly at 42nd). LI to lower Manhattan will still be faster via Brooklyn than via GCT.
How so? The Lex bottlenecks are the downtown express all the way from 86th to Fulton St, and the downtown local to 42nd (it empties out significantly at 42nd). LI to lower Manhattan will still be faster via Brooklyn than via GCT.
With the ES Access, you will be dumping all those additional onto the Lex. How will that NOT add to the bottlenecking of the LEx?
You're not describing the Lex accurately. It does not empty significantly at 42nd, for one (it trades the sardines for tuna), and for another there is a significant reverse commute which occurs northbound which will be encouraged by the new LIRR service -in essence, GCT's popularity, and crowding, will increase.
Why not rewire the R-142s to open the doors 1 second before the train actually is at zero miles an hour. Like the Montreal system does. How hard is a firmware update, they will eventually have to ad changes to the automated voice (V at 53, BD at broadway lafayette,FW at 59,QW at 14, QW at canal). And whats the point of a firmware update feature if you never update it?
If you want to kill auto drivers, build a new ROW down the LIE (hahahahahahhhh) that takes 1 1/2 from each side. Go to hell express busses.
... down the LIE (hahahahahahhhh) that takes 1 1/2 LANES from each side ...
Nah.... it can be elevated. Take only one lane total.
The INBOUND lane! What the heck if it is too hard to drive in maybe the geese will take the train instead.
Elias
What would you have done back in 1900?
Buildmorelines!!!
- How far along the LIE would your Line extend? Would it be 2 or 4 Track? What stops would you put in? Would the line go to Manhattan and if so how?
I twould be a 2 track commuter stlye line only 3-4 stations in queens.
crushed and is not on a barge out to sea.
If you mean now instead of not, then I'll have you know that the barge hit an iceberg and sank into the murky depths of the Atlantic, where unfortunately it's lackluster construction caused it to immediately collapse on itself because of the intense pressure.
It's now been covered until hot volcanic plumes and is almost certainly melted by now. :-)
I hope the MTA is not waiting for people to be pushed off the over-crowded platforms before they decide to build another line for the East side. It's bad enough that the current Communications rooms project have effectively shorten the width of the platforms from 10 feet to 5 feet at busy stations like 86 St and 77 St.
What are communications rooms and what purpose do they serve? Also if people do fall off they will simply close the station because it is a saftey hazard.
I finnaly rode on a R142. I go on the subway very few times and the IRT even less. I was on the 6 uptown. The brakes seemed to make more noise than the redbirds. I did not care for the R142, maybe it was not a typical one. Going back downtown I was on a redbird, the trip was very smooth. The train was in very good shape.
There are no redbirds on the 6......... Unless it was the ghost of Pelham Bay???????
My error In took the 6 up to 79 street and walked back to 59 vstreet and got on a 5 train
Note: The 6 line has R142As, not R142s...Big difference...the 6 has Japanes-make machines, not the Canadian Bacon (Bits)...:)
My mind is starting to go on me (like you hadn't figured that out by now).
I forget what the colors of the 13 & 14 bullets are on the rollsigns on the R62/62A.
Did anyone have a webpage set up with all this on it?
Thanks,
Allan
Allan, if you want to have fun rolling signs, go to this site, have fun rolling the R62 signs, and you will find the answers.
Chaohwa
Chaohwa,
Many thanks.
Allan
Hmm ... I can't get to it ....
--Mark
It worked for me.
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/rollsign/[URL]
(I'll bet I still can't get a link set up)
The webmaster will be gone for 3 years. I guess he hasn't payed his dues. So it won't be back till 2004.
TransferPoint
The Menu on the left-hand side of the page will guide you to the Rollsign Gallery. Just click on "Transit Museum" once the page loads, then click on "Rollsign Gallery."
I can't get into the site either but the colors are RED for 13 and Green for 14. The color scheme is used in the fantasy map that is in nycsubway.org.
Regards,
Jose
Let me think. I think...
RED: 1,2,3,9,12,13
GREEN: 4,5,6,8,10,14
PURPLE: 7,11
:-) Andrew
Peace
David
Matter of fact here is a picture of one. Not one of the best pictures, but it's proof/proff that the sign exists...
7 Local.
I've just had a chance to examine the April 29 Northeast Corridor schedule, and have noted a reduction in Acela Express weekend service.
The following trains (which didn't serve Washington) no longer appear:
2291 (Sat) BOS-NYP 1600-1942
2293 (Sun) BOS-NYP 1700-2042
2290 (Sat & Sun) NYP-BOS 0803-1147
So the last AE leaving BOS for NYP on Saturday is now 1300, and the first AE leaving NYP for BOS on both Saturday and Sunday is now 1203. (I took 2290 on a Sunday morning last month, and it was very busy!)
Weekday schedules appear unchanged.
Now that I think about it, you are right, they are no longer there. I wonder why they did that.
Is it because of service cuts?
Four years ago, there were 4 Metroliner roundtrips on Saturday and 8 roundtrips on Sunday between DC and NY. Currently there are 5 Acela Express roundtrips on Saturday and 8 roundtrips on Sunday between NY and DC. Is it the sign of "back to normal"? Just guessing.
Chaohwa
I was pouring over some old subway maps from the second 12 Historical Maps set and....
It seems to show an H&M line diverging south from Christopher Street along 9th Street terminating at Broadway (at Wanamaker's - - - Well, DUH! it *is* their map!)
Let's go spelunking and see if we can find this line!
Elias
Don't bother. That tunnel was never built.
All you will see is the tunnel heading just north of the 9th St station.
this is just a provision for a line that was never built. The original concept was to extend the line to meet the IRT at Astor Place.
Another never built line was an extension to Grand Central (space still exists in the landing fropm the 4 platforms to the 7 platform. This space is proposed to be used in the East Side Access provision to allow train service from Pennto Grand Central.
Just north of 9St/PATH was a heading that would have gone to Astor Place. The route only goes beyond the curve.
Halfway up the esculator at the s/e of the island platform at Grand Central/#7 line was to have been a mezzazine to the H&M tubes coming up from 33/6.
I've never heard about any rail connection from Penn Station to Grand Central. Closest I've heard is the connector linking Grand Central with LIRR at sunnyside yard.
I've never heard about any rail connection from Penn Station to Grand Central. Closest I've heard is the connector linking Grand Central with LIRR at sunnyside yard.
You obviously haven't been keeping up with your homework. A rail connection from Penn Station to GCT is one of the options being explored by the people doing the Access to the Region's Core study. For more information click here.
Would that connect the Metro North West of Hudson lines directly to Grand Central (and Penn)?
Yes, through the proposed "Secaucus Loop." For a look at a map showing the proposed connection, cleck here.
WOOOOH, Where did you get this?
WOOOOH, Where did you get this?
I don't quite understand how you could look at it without your browser showing the URL. Any way, the URL is
http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/shared/images/alternativeg.gif
With all the bitching recently about people not wanting to bother with cut and paste of URLs and demanding clickable links, it's a little bit funny to be asked to post the URL.
What is most telling is the "relocated Lex SB local track. And how will these geniuses accomplish this without MAJOR disruption?
What is most telling is the "relocated Lex SB local track. And how will these geniuses accomplish this without MAJOR disruption?
By finishing the Second Avenue Subway first?
What is most telling is the "relocated Lex SB local track. And how will these geniuses accomplish this without MAJOR disruption?
I had thought they planned to run the ARC tunnels up Madison, the one avenue without any trains under it already? Why go through the incredible pain of relocating the East Side IRT under Park when you could have "clean" construction under Madison?
You might have to turn the top end somewhat to angle into GCT -- or is this a result of using the former MNRR yard at GCT as the LIRR mezzanine for East Side access, meaning that the platforms for NJT that would have gone there now can't, so you have to double-end some of the current lower level?
What is most telling is the "relocated Lex SB local track. And how will these geniuses accomplish this without MAJOR disruption?
I had thought they planned to run the ARC tunnels up Madison, the one avenue without any trains under it already? Why go through the incredible pain of relocating the East Side IRT under Park when you could have "clean" construction under Madison?
You might have to turn the top end somewhat to angle into GCT -- or is this a result of using the former MNRR yard at GCT as the LIRR mezzanine for East Side access, meaning that the platforms for NJT that would have gone there now can't, so you have to double-end some of the current lower level?
I believe there is a difference between "an option being explored" and a project in progress. Is the connection between Penn Station and GCT being built or are people just talking about it?
At this point, Alternative G is but one of the three options for increased trans-Hudson rail service. Alternative S will add a 3rd tunnel under the East River, linking Tracks 1 to 5 at Penn Station to Sunnyside yard. Alternative P will create a new level at Penn Station. All three are the same on the west side of the Hudson.
All concerned seem to agree that the existing Hudson River rail tunnels are being used to capacity and that tech fixes will only marginally increase that capacity. Thus, a new tunnel seems assured. The disputes are over where to place the tunnel and what to do with the trains as they emerge -- terminate them at new platforms at Penn Station, terminate them at GCT, or terminate them in Queens. Having survived several years of competition with many other alternatives to become one of three finalists, Alternative G has a substantial chance of getting built.
"Having survived several years of competition with many other alternatives to become one of three finalists, Alternative G has a substantial chance of getting built."
Sure, if "substantial" means more than 1% probability.
Once the LIRR goes to GCT, which is actually underway, the only people who truly benefit from a Penn to GCT tunnel are New Jersey commuters. I don't see that there are enough of those to spend the many billions of dollars we're talking about.
There's more people and money on the Upper East side, and that isn't getting the 2nd Ave subway built. This project has fewer people and less financial clout behind it.
If you think that there will never be another rail tunnel under the Hudson, I think you are mistaken. The current tunnel is at capacity and demand for more capacity is going to increase. That's why the current study is under way. In a rational world, the result of the study would certainly get built. Even in our crazy world, there's a good chance.
"If you think that there will never be another rail tunnel under the Hudson, I think you are mistaken."
I do agree there is real hope (and need) for another tunnel under the Hudson. What I was suggesting as highly improbable was a railroad connection directly between Penn and GCT.
It goes back about 250 feet beyond the electrical switchgear that blocks the entrace to the diverging tunnel. The original ring erecting machine (for the tunnel lining rings) is still back there. I'd advise against trespassing down there - the PA has absolutely no sense of humor about this, particularly these days.
As if the PA ever had a sense of humor?
We're kinda pushing the concept on them over on Harry's place. Wonder if they read any of it? :)
We're kinda pushing the concept on them over on Harry's place. Wonder if they read any of it? :)
I doubt it, but maybe the FBI will in their expanded search for terrorists. :)
This memorial day weekend, my wife and I will be taking our annual anniversary trip to Maine and Boston. I plan to visit the museum at Seashore on either Saturday or Sunday, and we'll be in Boston on Monday and Tuesday. First, will anyone perhaps be at Seashore that weekend? Second, would anyone like to do some T riding with me in Boston on Monday or Tuesday? Email me or reply here soon so I can beg my so-far-understanding-of-my-train-obsession wife for some railfan time. (She probably wouldn't mind the time apart so she can shop!)
Keystone Pete.... Memorial Day weekend is "Members Weekend" at Seashore. So there will be lots going on, especially on Saturday. I plan on being there myself -- I've been asked to drive the "lunch bus" into town for those who would like to ride a Fishbowl.
Hope to see you and other SubTalkers then.
(Monday I'll be in NYC for the next installment of Transit & Weather Together)
Remember and GOs that proved memorable in that they were very complicated for the rider or TO. Remember any that caused you to have to go way off your normal route or board several extra trains? What's the worst? Just curious.
The most complicated GO I remember, when the 5 use to run on the 1 downtown (Or Uptown I can't remember), and the 3 had to stop at Times Square. It may have been Penn station but it wasn't the worst.
The worst is the one going on right now. Since the 1's now going to Brooklyn instead of the 3.
This wasn't complicated from a passenger's perspective, but it must have been a logistical nuisance for the TA.
Back in the mid-80's, the northbound local track at Aves. H J and M was out of service and temporary platforms were constructed which reached out to the express track to provide Manhattan bound service. On weekends, I guess the work was more extensive, so Manhattan bound trains would use the southbound express track to go north.
This required trains to enter Kings Highway on the uptown local track. Then they would reverse direction to cross over to the northbound express and then southbound express. Then they would proceed north again. If I remember correctly, trains would then stop again at Kings Highway going Manhattan bound.
Apparently, there were T/O's assigned to spend their entire Saturday making this reverse move and then switching platforms to do it all over again. I recall some of them taking the switches at a pretty high rate of speed.
CG
Nightmare GOs? We are living in one now, although most people have gotten used to it.
GO dated July 22, 2001 closed the north side of the Manhattan Bridge to revenue service resulting in B and D service cut back to 34/6; creation of W service in Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queens; creation of 6th Ave shuttle from Queensbridge to B'way/Lafayette; creation of Grand St shuttle from Grand St to B'way/Lafayette; creation of ; all Q service returned to normal route over south side of Manhattan Bridge, terminating at 57/7.
Anticipated date of completion - 2004.
This GO cancels GO #, dated sometime in the early 90's.
Any fan trip has a complex GO. At one time the GO included a time schedule which was later dropped and only its routing remained.
The one I remember was way back when both sides of the Man Bridge were still open, but they were doing weekend work on the Brighton tracks, and had closed them. So. The D was sent to Manhattan via Montague, then Naussau/Centre St all the way to the Wil Bridge. Then, it reversed and took the Chrystie St. route to B'way-Lafayette. I went out of my way to take this detour. I've been on revenue service thru the Chrystie connection! This is not quite a moibus, but gets halfway there.
The one I remember was way back when both sides of the Man Bridge were still open, but they were doing weekend work on the Brighton tracks, and had closed them. So. The D was sent to Manhattan via Montague, then Naussau/Centre St all the way to the Wil Bridge. Then, it reversed and took the Chrystie St. route to B'way-Lafayette
I think that one wins, maybe not as one of the MOST complicated, but definitely as one of the most interesting. I believe I remember that one vaguely. How long ago was it that they did that?
Was this wiht R68s or R42s?
I forget, but I do remember there was NO railfan window. This was the only time I did the Crystie St. connection, and there was nothing to see.
By the time the 68's came, the policy was to send all trains to the other side of the bridge (like now). I remember the Nassau reroutes with 42's and 32's. I don't know if I ever saw this done with 44's, but that would have been the only non-railfan window train to run that way, if they ever even went through there.
The most complicated G.O. I remember had the A trains skipping Rockaway Boulevard, 88th Street, and 80th Street going northbound on the middle track and having to relay in Pitkin Yard to get to the Euclid Avenue station and resume normal to Manhattan. . . all the while being in passenger service!
It was the first and only time I remember being on a train as a passenger and in the yard. Looking around and seeing tracks and switches gave me the feeling of being Alice in Wonderland. :)
Wow, when did this happen? I'm pissed off I missed it!
This was many years ago; I'm guessing the early '90s. I know it was on the weekend. Track repairs were being done on the northbound track between 88th Street and Grant Avenue.
This was the first and only time I ever witnessed a G.O. like that.
A few months ago, an advisory of this sort was posted on the TA's web site, although by the time it was posted it was over or almost over. (It was a one-day Friday midday GO, and the service advisories are posted on Fridays.) I don't remember exactly which stops were skipped nor do I know if trains ran through the yard.
In my knowledge the most complicated G.O. I remember was when (last April...2001) they had the D train running in 2 sections, from 205th Street Bronx, to (then) World Trade Center via the 8th Avenue Line, and from 34th-6th to Coney Island. This was SO COMPLICATED, because everyone who wanted to get to Rockefeller Center, Brooklyn, Grand Street and all the regular D line stops were so confused, and my train (I was working the 205-WTC half) and many others were delayed extensively due to all the customer confusion, and after talking and telling people how to go in the right direction to get to where they wanna go, I was getting confused, and the situation was quite trying and stressing. I did my best despite the confusion and an awful lot of bad tempers, although thur all the mess, and talking myself to death, I managed to have a number of people thanking me for my help and telling me I was doing a good job. That G.O. was complicated.
And the G.O. that seemed to go on forever when there was no E train service, and the R replaced the Es from Parsons Archer. That was was......man don't even let me get started on that. You talk about mass mass mass confusion. On top of everything the Queens Division was still delay-ridden, the equipment (R-46) sucked (slooooow doors), and the messages that were supposed to be posted to relay the service changes to everyone were non-existent in a large number of stations; this all in turn added to the complication.
This isn't exactly a GO, but more of an emergency reroute. It was June 2000 and I was coming home from Flatbush Avenue. I went to Atlantic to get the N toget home, but as I got there, a train was pulling out, don't remember which train it was, but it was last one to see Pacific for the rest of the night. By that time, Bs were stopping at Dekalb (it was around 10) and as the next train left it derailed. I Then had to take a 4 to get to a 6 to get to 51 St to get an F to come back to Stillwell to get an N to Bay Parkway. N trains were running in 2 sections, Astoria to lower Manhattan IIRC, and Stillwell to 36 St.
Well, I missed 51 St but got off at 59th and came back down one stop. Then on the F, the C/R said that there were transfers to the NR at 4th Avenue, so I got off but service was not restored yet and the only thing being offered was a shuttle bus from 36th to Atlantic stopping at all the stops inbetween. They were running on 3rd Ave and I went and waited from half an hour to an hour. A total of 1 bus came by and it was full so it skipped us. I went back to the subway to take the F to Stillwell. Got home at 2AM.
n train,
june 2000 eh? could this be the infamous night of our graduation?
dear god man, you shouldve come home with me instead!
The most complicated are the ones like this with the 2 and 4 switching routes in Manhattan (sometimes one direction. And then the similar ones when South Ferry loop was open, and the 2 or 5 went around the lopp to continue to Brooklyn. Also the Lenox rehab with the hybrid 2/5 service via 7th Ave. and Lenox. And a big switch replacement around Atlantic in the early 90's which cut all IRT service between Brooklym and Manhattan and they instituted a "J4 Shuttle" between Chambers and Pacific. At first it was just the J extended to 95th (All weekend long), but the next time it was a shuttle that relayed at Chambers and Pacific.
The Lenox Rehab Project had to be one of the most complicated that I could recall.
2s ran in the morning via 7th Ave, to the Bronx via the Lex;
PMs it was just the opposite. Any 2s that ran northbound on 7th Avenue in the AMs were layups after 96th St.
3s ran to 137th St, with trains to/from 148th St during the rush hour and in one direction only.
I'd say it was pretty complicated having Lenox Av service only in one direction during the couse of the day. At least on the weekends, it was possible to run the 2 in both directions on 7th Av with single track operation and 24 minute headways to/from 241 St (gasp).
------
Another GO which occurred in December 1990 was rather interesting: From Saturday Night to Sunday Afternoon, there were various service suspensions on the 1/2/3. IIRC, they were doing work on the switches at 96th St.
-No 1 Service between 72 and 103 Sts.
-No 2 Service Southbound from 110th St to Borough Hall.
-No 3 Servcice between 148th St and TSQ.
There was local service available southbound from 72nd St provided by the #1. #2s ran up 7th Avenue making all stops, but returned to Flatbush by the Lex. A special #2 shuttle provided service (downtown only) between Mott Av (149th St) and 110th St. Shuttle buses connected the 1/2/3 with the A,C,D at 103rd and 110th Sts. It was also one of the few times that I can recall where you could use Regular Service Buses to get to where you had to be. If you needed to be at 148th St on the 3, Transit encouraged you to take the IND to 145th St and transfer to the BX19.
A number of things happened during the 1990 GO.
Unless I am mistaken:
#1s that travelled between South Ferry and 72nd St operated express from Chambers to TSQ, then operated by the spur track to the southbound express track to 72nd St. Trains would relay at 79th St and come back in on the normal local track. They crossed over the 2s that were making local stops.
At 103rd St, these 1s were either single tracked to/from 137th St or relayed south of 103rd St, to the middle, and then on the uptown track. Single tracking seems more likely if they were doing switch repairs.
#2 shuttles turned at Jackson Middle and south of 110th St.
#3s turned on the northbound express track at TSQ.
A water main an asbestos mess in October 1989 @ 42nd/8th created these unusual service changes which lasted 2 weeks:
A service running between Queens and Penn Station only. Express service in Brooklyn suspended. I actually saw a red R30 A train during this GO.
C service was completely suspended.
E service ran via the Sixth Ave line from 5th Ave to W4th St.
B service running from 47/50th St. to CI rush hours only. Other times it terminated as 36th St. in Brooklyn.
D Ran local 24/7 north of Columbus Circle, including in the Bronx.
Q service replaced the A in northern Manhattan, running from 207th St to Brighton Beach. The only time I ever saw an R38 venture onto the Brighton line.
23rd/8th and 57th/6th were completely closed. This was before 63rd. St opened.
Pardon my ignorance. But what does "G.O." stand for? General orders?
It's nice being ignored.
Sorry CM, but once in a while a message slips through the cracks (I've had quite a few).
G.O. does indeed stand for "General Orders" (aka track work).
Thank you.
I can remember two from Queens Blvd around '99...
One GO that was quite complicated was when they closed all service between Roosevelt and Manhattan on the Queens Blvd Line:
R - Astoria to 95st Brooklyn
E - Jamaica Center to Roosevelt, Express. Turned using the switch between the express tracks.
F - 179st to Roosevelt, Local. Turned using the switch at 46st.
Anyone going to Manhattan from Queens Blvd ended up on the 7.
A shuttle bus ran from Roosevelt to Queensboro Plaza for local customers.
I believe G customers could transfer to the 7 at 45road.
The other one was the 71/Continental switch replacement. Here's what was going on:
R - Somewhere other than Queens Blvd.
E - Trains ran in two sections: WTC to Roosevelt, and Van Wyck Blvd to Jamaica CTR. Anyone going between the Archer ave branch and the 179 branch would have to transfer an extra time just to get to the crossover at Union TPK. Also, the E turned on the northbound express track at Roosevelt and ran express to/from QP.
F - Trains ran every 12 minutes. Northbound trains ran local from QP to Roosevelt, than express on the local to Continental and normal after that.
However, Southbound trains pulled into continental on the southbound express (inches from where the trackwork was going on), reversed direction and crossed over to the northbound express, then re-entered 71/continental. Then, the trains would wait until the previous F arrived at Roosevelt, and by that time the next F was already waiting on the southbound express for us to leave so it could do the double reversing thing. Southbound Fs wrong-railed on the express to roosevelt, and switched to the normal express track north of the station, and then again crossed to the local track south of the station.
Local stops between Roosevelt and 71st were served by shuttle bus.
So both single crossovers at Roosevelt and the one single crossover at continental all were used for this G.O.
Wow that 7 train must've been packed like a super compressed sardine can.
[... the 71/Continental switch replacement.... Local stops between Roosevelt and 71st were served by shuttle bus.]
The bus part was interesting, too:
* From Roosevelt via Broadway and Queens Blvd, making all local stops.
* After drop-off at 71 Avenue, the buses went all the way to Union Turnpike to turn around and lay over.
* From 71st Avenue via Queens Blvd, right on Broadway, left on Woodside Avenue, right on 69th Street, right on 37th Avenue, right on Broadway to 74th Street. In other words, the buses served local Queens Blvd Line stops to Elmhurst Avenue, then 69th Street station for transfers to #7, then Roosevelt Avenue station for transfers to Manhattan-bound E, F.
Actually, the worst GO's were the ones late at night (since I'm a musician I was ALWAYS riding the subways home at ungodly hours) in the 80's where there was no subway service at all....You'd have to get out and catch a bus.
1st place worst:
In about 1985, no trains between E 180th St. and 149th St./3rd Ave. in the Bronx. A long and crowded bus ride, at 3 a.m.
The J was often a victim of this in the 1980's as well. EVERY summer from 1985-1991, J service would always be replaced by a bus from either Eastern Parkway or Crescent St to Jamaica (121 St. before 1989). every weekday from 10PM - 3PM and on weekends. A bizarre GO in 1987/88 had the J operating from Eastern Parkway to 36th St. in Brooklyn every weekday in this manner as well due to GO's on the M line.
Back in January '91, there must've been some heavy weekend work on the outer Flushing line, because I was able to board a special M-1 train at the LIRR Flushing station and ride nonstop to Hunters Point, where transfer tickets were available to the subway. That's the ONLY time I can remember the LIRR pinch-hitting like that.
Reversing the trip, there were a lot of confused passengers at Hunters Point who apparently thought there was regular LIRR service. One woman kept yelling over and over "Doesn't this go to Wantagh?!" Quite a trick, considering HP doesn't even HAVE regular weekend service, just peak directional. At the time, I don't think it had any electric service, either- save for one Ronkonkoma train.
I vaguely remember that GO also. I believe they even pasted purple &'s on the front of the M1'S for that.
I believe they even pasted purple &'s on the front of the M1'S for that.
That was supposed to say purple "7's" I hit the shift by accident.
I sent my friend to DC Union Station at noon today. She took the 1:05 PM Acela Regional to New York. When I went up to the parking lot, I saw her train did not leave the station for nearly 10 minutes. Then I saw the 1PM Acela Express Train #2166 (Trainset #18) stuck north of the station. Trainset #18 than was back to the station! Clearly Trainset #18 had mechanical problems.
When I see the current status of Train #2166, it is delayed by 55 minutes now. At Union Station, after Train #2153 (Trainset #11) arrived at Union Station, it only rested for only a hour and then was used at Train #2168 (2PM departure). Usually it stays for two hours and then departs as Train #2170 (3PM departure). Clear today's AE dispatchment is very very tight.
A lot of repairs to do. Today is not a good day for AE trainsets.
Chaohwa
Satisfaction Guaranteed!
Crank up the voucher-printer...$$ Cha-ching! $$
Below is the URL of a photo that showed up on ABPR recently. It shows a burned-out MBTA rapid transit car, but what's really interesting is the steeplecab locomotive to the right. Can anyone identify what this is, and what happened to it?
Frank Hicks
http://abpr2.railfan.net/cgi-bin/thumb/abprphoto.cgi?/railpix/ABPR/april02/04-18-02/MBTa01410inEverettYard3-28-75Sz.jpg
For those who don't visit Harry's site and are interested in railroad train (as opposed to subway train) photos, last week I posted eleven photographs of the Legislators' Limited, a chartered train that operated on freight-only track in Philly on Thursday May 9 in conjunction with the Pennsylvania Freight Railroaders Convention. The train used Bennett Levin's PRR Tuscan red E8's and had his PRR #120 open-end observation car "Pennsylvania" bringing up the rear. The eleven photos filled out my 36-shot Webshots Around Philly 3 page.
Last night I uploaded a whole 36-shot page with additional shots of the Legislators' Express, as well as freight equipment encountered during the chase, to my Philly May 9, 2002 page.
Does anybody know if there is still any retired subway cars based at subway yards? If so could I have a list of the car numbers.
For one you can go the Rolling Stock link on this web site and hit the retired cars link on the IRT.These cars are work service trains, if you have some spare time you can go up to the yards and look around you might find some retired cars also.I hope this helps.
Thanks for info MR.GEE, but its on my head that sometimes when I see 2 R30 sitting @ 207 Street Yard from University Heights Bridge I always wonder what are the two married pair #'s? Besides what do they used them for because it doesn't say in the R27/30 page that there isn't one @ 207 Street Yard?
When was the last time the R9s were used for a fan trip.
Anywhere? Well... last Sunday from Highwood to South Boston and back at the Seashore Trolley Museum. Cars 800/1440 (techically R4 & R7A).
There was at least one SubTalker there to participate!
Not to downplay Seashore, Todd, I WILL visit there sometime, but I have to say on members day at Branford I rode about five roundtrips to Short Beach on R-9 1689. It was coupled with their Low-V. However to be technical, I must admit the original poster asked the last time and Seashore was the last time.
Yes, that was me bowing down to Sir Todd as he operated 800/1440 out of Highwood to South Boston in shuttle service ....
--Mark
Members Day (April 29, 2002) at BERA lashed to a Low-V. She also made two round trips SOLO, boy she can move by herself but she ain't SMEE on the braking end.....hehe...
R9's can stop very nicely too ... you just gotta PLAN for it. Heh. Once you get used to manual lapping, they're pussies ...
!?!?
Now behave yourself. I'm going to Branford with BMTman and Thurston only moments from now. I'll have to try the R-9 and see if your theory applies............
-Stef
You'll see ... pull ... set it away in lap, release as required. And when you get REAL good at the old hand-pull, you can remove the butt plug and enjoy all-air braking the way it was MEANT to be enjoyed. Like a good BRT car ... electric braking is for whooses. :)
I remember hearing that familiar "tch-sssss" magnet valve sound from 1689 back in 1980 and thought I was back on the IND again.:-)
I like that 6688 story better. It almost ran past the end of the line once - stopped just in time. I don't think it lost its brakes; it just built up a big head of steam down the straightaway to Short Beach.
Hadn't heard the whole story ... a train can get away from you since braking isn't quite like driving a car. There's a time lag and you have to build that into your marker calculations. The arnines were peppy (when they had motors) and slow on stopping. That was one of the reasons why I preferred to stick to one car class on my runs since the 32's were COMPLETELY different ... the TA on the other hand had an attitude that all cars were the same and that just wasn't the case. All had the same braking and acceleration specs and yet some cars definitely did both differently despite identical "specs" ...
I have seen and photographed 6688 at Shoreline, but haven't ridden on it. From what I understand it runs great, and its SMEE brakes are a bit sensitive. I also heard you don't always realize just how fast you're going on 6688 until it's time to stop. Then it's "Whooooaaaaa!!!" AFAIK that's what happened that one particular time. Don't know if they threw it into emergency or not.
If I remember school car properly, the last thing you want to do is DUMP an SMEE - all you get is flat wheels and slide. You want to pull a full service of course. I imagine that's what they did. You lose your dynamics when you dump and the stopping distance is longer. It's a pity that the run at Branford is so short (even shorter for a straightaway "let it gallop") but then again a short run is far better than none at all so I won't whine. :)
Just wait 'till we straighten out that S-curve. Wetlands, Schmetlands!
THAT I'd like to see. Running an R9 at less than 45 is sacrilege. They like to purr up to speed and then coast to the stop. :)
You said it.
Of course, pitting 1689 against 6688 would be pretty cool.
Hey Dave,
Is that before or after the seperate main line for us "Street Car
Fanatics" with loops at both ends for: 27, 1001, 2898, 1706 etc?
Then we can race the SMEE against a PCC. Oh pardon waa, we'll have
a R-62 single by then. >G<
:-) Sparky
That's something ELSE I'd love to see ... and yes, I know the PCC would win that hands down. Them puppies can haul as the folks in Newark are learning the hard way. :)
First, please excuse Dave as he's forgotten his meds again.
If our R-17 and Newark PCC were to race on a long straight
track, the R-17 would win. It has a balancing speed of 50 MPH
while the PCC is 42. However, the PCC has a higher acceleration
rate so given our short straight-aways, the PCC will reach a
higher speed. Likewise, our North Shore car has the highest
balancing speed in the collection, but it would take a mile to
reach that speed. Much more fun running that car class out at IRM!
Heh. I actually ENJOY Dave when he comes up a brick shy on his meds. Remember, I'm in this for FUN. I already did it as WORK years ago so you'll never catch me taking it seriously. Yeah, I know about the balancing speeds but I was also thinking of the curvature and slow orders on your railroad down there so the way it looked to me when I made the preposterous assumption was that the winner in any race down yonder would be the one out of the gate first, so I wagered on the PCC. Now put them both on the Rockaway straightaway or the CPW dash and we know 1689'd dust 'em both. :)
Mind....strong.......body......weak......
........must........post....on....SubTalk.....
Dewd ... take yer ritalin ... NICE paisley R9. :)
and we know 1689'd dust 'em both. :)
Not to be a party-pooper, but an R-17 is faster than an R-9 in
all respects except perhaps perceived speed.
Those damn clunkers! I love my R-17s.....
-Stef
Yo Unca Stef! Don't mess with us IND boys or I'll be forced to rewire your shunts. :)
an R-17 is faster than an R-9 in all respects except perhaps perceived speed.
What about minimum stopping distance from MAS?
I would expect a major advantage there too SO LONG AS you don't DUMP the train. Arnines were straight air with an electric valve assist, the 17's had dynamics and blending so you had the advantage if you needed to stop of both air and dynamics. The 17's could seriously stop if you so applied. Here's it's 17 HANDS DOWN and geese through the front glass if the operator were so inclined.
The R-17 stops better than the R-9, even on pure friction braking.
As for the current fleet with comp shoes and J14 valves, that's
another story.
The R-17 stops better than the R-9, even on pure friction braking.
As for the current fleet with comp shoes and J14 valves, that's another story.
Not according to the TA's Powerpoint explanation of the Williamsburg Bridge wreck, on their BBS. The R1-9 fleet had a maximum stopping distance of 250 feet from MAS. This was increased to 275 feet, starting with the R10's.
The R10's were SMEE - I'm sure the difference was the result of dynamics in the mix. But more importantly, weren't those figures based on the transit authority replacing the cast iron shoes with Buster Browns?
That's obviously wrong. MAs on the WB, or MAS on the system?
Jeff may be right, but the R-9 does make better noises < G >
Mr rt__:^)
You got that right. Moans, groans, and grunts galore.
IIRC 6688 will accelerate faster than 1689, but given a sufficient length of track, 1689 will catch up.
"... but given a sufficient length of track, 1689 will catch up"
Right, she, a Standard or a D Type will sing to you all the while she's catching up ... and got to have those paddle fans on too, even if its 30 outside < G >
But of course...:-)
And have the heat on even when it's 95 degrees...
Now you know why I was always HAPPY to pass up a bingbong for my firebreathers. :)
Party pooper. :)
Yeah, I know you're right but some of us have favorites which is why everybody believes for a FACT that the "hippos" are 10-25 MPH slower than a BUS. Heh.
I believe !
"... I was also thinking of the curvature and slow orders on your railroad down there ..."
There are some of us at Shoreline who are always willing to help our MOW Foreman when he's in town just to help in a small way keep up great condition of the line. Just recently we extended the guard rail on one of the curves & replaced 1/2 dozen ties on another. Had to soak my bluejeans in Lestoil to get the tar out.
Mr rt__:^)
Ya know? I never did ANY trackwork and yet Lestoil did its duty on my jeans just from sitting down in the cab in the years of yore. But yes, I've seen a number of pictures of the condition of the track, including you and your buddy supervising Dougie on jackhammer. The pics definitely show the degree of dedication you guys have to keeping the railroad going.
It's a pity owing to all those turn of the century ConnCo trolley derailments and their historical value and significance that you guys can't just yank out that damned S curve ... but I do appreciate why you can't.
"... yank out that damned S curve ..."
Actually a lot of colleagues & visitors think IT is what makes our short line more pleasent then most to ride. And, as an operator, it's a good test of your skills to be able to bring the car up to a respectible speed & then get it back down before you touch the gard rail ... especially when you have a car full of critics with you.
However, all of us would love to realy test our skills on Broadway, Central Park West, or the Brighton !
Mr rt__:^)
Heh. yeah, I *do* understand ... don't mind me though ... I wouldn't need Viagara if I could get 1689 up to speed for a few minutes and sorta wish there was someplace to do that. To give you an idea of my desperation, there's a LOVELY run of about 6 miles of abandoned track where I am that would be a NATURAL and the geography out here is such that a couple of stops along the way could actually serve as interesting waypoints for folks to get on and off, do a bit of shopping and moseying around and everything that 1689 or similar cars could compliment. Alas, it'd take Trump to pay for it all. Heh.
If money were no object though, it'd even be nice to have a small portion of tunnel with a subway style stop inside somewhere. I'm willing to settle for the dream though since reality is out of the question. Still, it'd be real nice to be able to run one of them again, it's been better than 30 years since the last time I was in the cab of one of those puppies and I *do* miss it ...
When they use 1689 or 6688 in a movie shoot they sometimes use one of the barns & have a guy run back & forth with lights to simulate the car underground.
One Halloween years ago they ran the trolleys thru a dark barn to scare the kids.
Mr rt__:^)
I'll bet it would be like riding a bicycle, too.:-)
Actually, I'd worry about getting the braking action down again. While it's easy and all, you need a few runs to get the "feel" because every car's braking action is a bit different. Sure a run out with the puppy without a prior would probably have me not do a brickwall stop, I'd need maybe 10-15 runs to be able to hit the marker again. You definitely had to get the "feel" for those cars and after 30 years, I know it won't come back 100% without a few "at bats" on the mound.
So you'd say you're just out of practice, then.
Well ... yeah ... :)
Sparky:
Part of "Secret plan 5A" would be a double track loop around Beacon Hill for turning around the single enders, and to keep you guys out of the way of the hurtling SMEE's.
(Of course, there would be a tower at ConnCo, but that's another "secret" plan!)
A "tower" in the middle of the swamp ... I can hear the NIMBYs tuning up their howling voices.
Mr rt__:^)
1689 can howl even louder.:-)
But she doesn't have as much pull with the Mayor as they do :-(
Feh. You guys just don't have the right knuckle adapter. :)
Dave,
Oh goodie, were getting our own trackage, so we don't have to share
with RT. But if the stepwells are reinstalled in 1227, we'll
allow her to cross over to Streetcar Trackage. Oh by the way
will the towerman @ ConnCo be DB.
:-) Sparky
Only if there's cable TV and a really comfy chair.
Is Tower Operator promotional from Trench Digger at Branford?
Dave,
Would the Chief "TO" vacate the position to the "Trench Digger"?
:-) Sparky
Dave,
Would the Chief "TO" vacate the position to the "Trench Digger"?
:-) Sparky
S curve? What S curve? Oh, THAT S curve!
R9 1689 in the S curve
29 September 2001
R9 1689 up close and personal at the quarry trestle
29 September 2001
Click on the thumbnails for a larger version :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"It's headed right for us"
"Run Away, Run Away, Run Away"
The telephoto makes it look like a freaking jungle! (Time to borrow the chainsaw again)
Maybe this was taken on the Brighton Line before the weed abatement program of the late '60s
The telephoto makes it look like a freaking jungle! (Time to borrow the chainsaw again.)
Aren't you glad I didn't have the real long lens on? If you promise to use it I'll stick my saw in the van on Saturday... ditto for the long-handled pruners... the foliage is getting thick around 22W as well. My back is too far gone now for me to play Jason any more though, I have to let you younger folks do it. Walter and I are coming up to operate on Saturday, we'll drop you off anywhere you want along the line and you can have at it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll be up Friday to help with the fire alarm project.
There are certain members, who will remain nameless, who take it upon themselves to dissapear down the line with sharp tools for long periods of time. Possible to take part in some 'bizarre' pruning ceremony.
Hey Dave,
Has anyone seen the nameless one of late?
:-) Sparky
He's off Mon & Tues, so he was Victor's Apprentice in the AM this past Tuesday, then was busy making lots of Chocks after lunch, because certain operators use them up < G >
Gratified, he's doing something constructive, [Yes, there always seems to be a deficiency of chocks in the operating department,
and all say "It wasn't me", must be the coons muchin aft hours >G<]
Without sounding repetitive it is implicit of him, rather then another
who shall remain obscure, who is wrackful, so he can list time being
inferential.
:-) Sparky
"Why that chock was no good, I just rolled right over it!"
I'm guessing the old crank chains is busticated? Not that I mind real wood in the color of your choice of course, but those cars did have parking brakes ...
BEry practice is to chock, and not to set the hand brake. There is some concern that on a car with a lever-type handbrake handle, it could be released in error, or something could break, and the handle would swing around and clock some visitor in the noggin.
I'm sure one of the Branford Motor Instructors will jump in now with more info...
Sounds like some additional training might be in order but I won't argue with a particular practice of non-TA origin if it makes sense to those involved. But let's be real - a block of wood is going to lose every time - the train always wins if it starts moving.
And yeah, I've gotten some rude awakenings myself in the morning when I dropped the claw on those things and there's a MIGHTY stiff spring under there. I can understand it. THANKS for saying "motor instructor" ... I always thought of "TSS" as a mealy-mouthed word. :)
On basically level track a wedge of wood will keep a car out of harms way & should a operator forget to remove it MOST times she won't go on the ground (I saw one trolley that pushed the choke for a while before the front wheels did a hop).
Also, if you set the hand brake & it stays that way for a while in the salt air it might be hard to release it.
Mr rt__:^)
Coney had similar problems and some goose grease usually kept the saltines dry. but like I said, I respect whatever operating rules are in effect. One thing that's amused me over the years is how no two railroads agree on the "proper way" to operate. If the practice makes sense for you guys, then it's a good one. :)
Dave,
>>>the handle would swing around and clock some visitor in the noggin.<<<
Experience is the best teacher. Back when I was just a motorman,
when 1414 was on site, a group of teenagers where visiting. Well
we relayed the open at FRR and took most on tour. Some just hung
around the yard and were teens. >G< Upon completion and readying
to complete their visit, I released the air and Lord and behold
watched the gooseneck do threesixties, wasn't strapped does days.
So if it was wound and not kicked locked it whirled when brakes
were released.
Also picture this, an unsuspecting operator gets on car, sees its
not chocked and proceeds to power up. Oh, take another point its not moving. Yeah, I seen it with a full application of air at another museum, very colorful, the glow of orange, as the grids fried.
And our exibits are not encased, we are a hands on museum to a degree, living exibits. At times visitors do have a tendency to turn handles and cranks etc, without members present. Release brakes, unit rolls, OH!!! KABOOM!!! DID I DO THAT??? enough said...
Yes, I am a BERA Motor Instructor.
:-) Sparky
Wow ... that was one of the first "hands on" lessons in school car and the basis for many of my own comments here about the first point and the "smell of victory" ... then again, in an enclosed area, you'd get a whiff of the grids pretty quickly if you did something dumb. But handbrakes was one of those things beaten into your head so frequently that you just didn't try to roll unless you were SURE they were all free and if you did your click-click-click and nothing happened but a thud noise, you did three clicks back and find out why.
Schoolcar at Branford must be amusing. :)
Schoolcar at Branford must be amusing.
Frightening is more like it, what with Sparky, Jeff Hakner, and Lou from Brooklyn (among numerous others) as my instructors... one of these days, though, I'll probably end up on their side, teaching a crop of newbies the fine points of wet rail adhesion, using the "creeper" on 629, and how to give an informative tour tailored to the particular audience at hand.
As someone (Thurston?) said in another portion of this thread, we do need to emphasize the historical aspect more than we have been... we have so much more to offer than just a ride, something not all of our sister museums can really say (and those that can don't usually emphasize it any more than we do). Of the dozen or so operating traction and rail museums that I have visited in the past three or four years, only one other - Steamtown - puts the main emphasis on the museum part rather than on the ride. This is not to say that the historical information isn't there - often it is - but the emphasis isn't on it unless you specifically ask for it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. Most of my own "hysterical" data is already in the archives here. Hate to be a bad boy, but I'd only be in it for the handle time and the kibbitzing. I don't think the "guests" would want to hear stories of TMO "Frank." Probably get the museum sued by the MTA.
I'd be a lenient motor instructor - the rules are the rules but my method would be a slow turn of the head towards ya with "well now. Don't you feel stupid after doing that?" ... that's the way it was back in the old days. Now you get a letter in your personnel file and the only way you find out is when you review it for the "performance evaluation" ... I sure do wish I had the time and bucks to come out and play down yonder though ... I could use some R&R and a good dump. :)
"Schoolcar at Branford must be amusing. :) "
As a passenger on the school car, you learn to hold on for dear life. Not everyone grasps the way you have to blow off the air a little for a smooth stop. (Or what "lap" is!!) 'Couple times I thought Instructor Levinson was going thru the front windshield!
BTW, I'm sure my passengers had white knuckles my first time at the handles!
Heh. I take it ConnCo's "successor company" doesn't have company-issued Depends for staff, eh? Yeah, it does take a bit of finesse but it isn't all THAT hard. What I would find amusing though is folks used to running 142's and 143's trying to stop an R9. That's something I'd love to see. :)
What did the New York State Museum do to R-9 #1801? I was unaware that it was modified in any way. Any information would be appreciated. Thank you.
Well ... been more than 10 years since I've seen her. She's set up on the floor of the "Metropolis Hall" an exhibit of various cities in NYS. At the time, *ALL* of the undercar had been removed ... ALL of it - trucks, compressors, grids, you name it. I asked one of the curators what happened to the removed equipment and nobody was sure other than it was "probably in storage in the Education Building" which underwent major renovations at that time and much of the museum's storage items were relocated or discarded. Today, nobody knows what became of any of her parts. She was set up on blocks of sorts with a psuedo-platform on one side, signed up as an A train to Hudson Terminal.
The car was rewired so that all bulbs inside were parallel wired for 120 AC and the cabs were welded shut. They then replaced the seats, removed the rollsign crankages and mounted plexiglass panels and dummies in the seats BEHIND the plexiglass. Visitors get to walk in one door and walk along a plexiglassed path to another door. Nothing can be touched. No peek inside the cab and of course the issue of what happened to all that which could have at some future date made the car operable.
Now mind ya, it's been ten years. I walked away in disgust myself. Dunno if anything "good" has happened to her since I last saw her, but with historic non-funding of the State Museum over the past ten years, I wouldn't be surprised if she's deteriorated further since. I know what being inside a subway car is and that seems to be the only purpose of the exhibit - "you're standing inside a subway car." Woo-hoo. I would have been more interested in a view of "what's all that stuff underneath that I've never seen upclose" (I'm talking as a potential visitor, I've seen more than my fill of real R9 undercar when I worked for the TA but let's face it - it WOULD be interesting to folks that never had to break off a shoe or change a fuse or drain a compressor tank in their career) or perhaps a peek INSIDE the cab (another thing I've already had a snootful of for real) ... as a railfan experience in a museum, it's an ABSOLUTE DUD.
Thanks for the information on R-9 #1801, Selkirk TMO. It's a crying shame that she's been religated to nothing more than a shell of her former self. I remember her well when I was a Conductor on the Broadway-Jamaica Line. It's also a shame that the last R-9 ever built has not been honored more respectfully. Have a nice holiday.
Happy happy back at ya ... former southern division myself (D line, 1970/71) ... legion of the AMUE handles. :)
Hi SelkirkTMO. I worked all three divisions as both C/R and M/M. I didn't work the "D" line as a road M/M until around 1979. I worked both the Eastern and Southern Divisions as a road C/R and enjoyed alot of R-9 time. Unfortunately, by the time I was road qualified as a M/M, the R-9's had been taken out of passenger service. I was lucky enough to operate a number of four motor R-9's as transfers between East New York and 36th Street Yard. Brother could they move. What other lines and years did you operate as there is a good chance I may know you? Talk to you soon.
I didn't last so long - a long story that I've told many times before in the archives. Basically I got called up late summer of 1970 as a conductor, hit the road in September after taking the promotional (they were mighty short of MM's at the time so I was encouraged to go for it) and got out of schhol car in February of 1971. In April, had a whoopsie on a layup and since I was a probie, hit the street. The whoopsie was the result of a brake failure but I got to eat it. Just as well actually. Was already tiring of the gig.
Spend my entire career on the D train and primarily the R1/9's because I was crazy enough to WANT to run 'em and most of the other guys didn't want to hear about them anymore. :)
When I have a bit more time (I'm at work) I'll rehash some of the same old story but pretty much everybody here has already heard it all (it's a pretty short story actually).
Actually, 1802 was the last R-9. It still survives, intact and possibly operational, at CIY.
Kevin,
I may be late in posting this response, but take any "Qualified"
Motorperson a/o Engineer and put them at the handle of something
they havn't operated previously, it enlightment.
Case in point, good friend of my with 25+ at Metro North, qualified
upto and including "Gennies", put him at the controls of BRRT 4573,
straight air trolley, slow brakes, almost sent me thru the windscreen.
Yes School Car at BERA, is fun. That's why I "Spatch" for School sessions. >G<
:-) Sparky
No such thing as "too late" if supervision doesn't notice. Heh. I *do* have one advantage in that I actually operated 1689's cousins and kin and *know* how those shoes will sneak up on you and reproduce a stop into reinforced concrete at speed. If you don't some serious releasing as it's finally grabbing, YOU'RE going through the windshield too. :)
Although Dougie's car (1227) is classic old "count to five - surprise!" the R1/9's were almost as slow though on a real consist, the electric did help a bit ... but when you had grabbage, it was pretty serious. One of these days I've got to get down there and amuse and entertain. Been 30+ years since the last time I stopped one though. Wonder if it really IS like riding a bike.
Hey Kev, check out the signs. The D train lives!!
Steve,
I'm just catching up on the posts, but GMTA when it came to Kevin and 1689 signed as the "D". As much as I like my "GG" on 1689, I'll bow
to Kevin on this one.
:-) Sparky
Although the A is my favorite route, I still associate the R-1/9s with the D, so it's nice to see 1689 signed up as such. I hope the side signs were set accordingly and backlit. I'm pretty sure I had more R-1/9 rides on the D than on any other IND route, even if it only amounted to maybe a dozen. I rode them more on the Canarsie line than on all IND routes combined.
Say Steve,
We all have our preferences. The 1st subway, that I can remember riding were the R1-9s on the "GG". So I am biased to the signage on
1689.
In streetcars, it would be the 8000s that operated on Nassau Ave. on the Lorimer Street route. [Post WWII]. But my favorite Brooklyn Streetcar is a 6000 single ender, of which non were saved.
Served the Crosstown line [B-61] till 1951 and depoted at its namesake, Crosstown along with ETBs. Building built after WWII, for
servicing 6000s and ETBs, now used by RT for Emergency Response and
the tracks & pit are still there. >G<
:-) Sparky
I couldn't agree more - we all have our own tastes and preferences. You're partial to the GG as I am partial to the D and the A. Nothing wrong with that. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing 1689 signed up as an AA someday. My sign box is set up for an AA right now, as I am commemorating the 35th anniversary of my first AA ride in May of 1967.
Believe it or not, seeing an R-1/9 signed up as an A is actually foreign to me. Back then, of course, the A was almost exclusively R-10s, so naturally I rode on them a lot. I don't think I rode on more than five prewar A trains altogether.
Steve,
"AA" for non peak hours and "BB" for peak. >G<
I am partial to the "GG".
Also I think some R1-9s reappeared on the "A"s to the Rockaways
in the begining, in lieu of the R-16 swap for the newest for
the Peninsula, that couldn't cut it. Some R-10s went to the Eastern
Division of BMT.
:-) Sparky
Yes, that was indeed the case during the late 50s. My subway riding in earnest began in 1967 when we moved to Jersey, and by then the R-16s were back on the Eastern Division (some filled in on the GG during the Jamaica Yard Crisis) and the R-10s were back where they belonged on the A.
As to that crisis, Jamaica Yard was hit with a rash of R-1/9 failures in August of 1966. It got so bad that 20 R-38s that had just been delivered were pressed into service with one trainset on the E and one on the F. Since schedules still couldn't be met, 32 R-16s were borrowed from the Eastern Division and were fitted with GG signs. Finally, a group of condemned BMT standards were yanked off the scrapline and sent back to revenue service with the "S" for "Scrap" still showing beneath the paint covering it.
Steve,
At one time or another, due to the needs, the "GG" rails hosted various R's as required.
If I am correct the last assigments for
the tens were the "CC" & "GG" in their green paint.
Then they finished their service life on the "CC".
I not a died hard subway rider, bring back the streetcars.
But most of my existence on earth has been close to the "GG".
:-) Sparky
Didn't you used to be an L fan (Canarsie Line)?
Hey Karl,
My association & foundness of the 14th Sreet [L] Line is when it was
serviced by the Multi's, the BMT 13 & 16. That's it, other it was
the "GG"
:-) Sparky
Should have read "otherwise"
:-) Sparky
I associate the Canarsie line with the BMT standards. I rode on them during their last two years of service, and to me it was cruel and unusual punishment. I did not like them, period. When the R-7/9s came over, I rejoiced.
I have ridden on the G perhaps four times. Twice on February 10, 1968 due to a service interruption on the Canarsie; once on June 7, 1969; and once on October 28, 1987. The first three rides were on R-1/9s; the last one on R-46s. I do remember the Bedford-Nostrand station the first time I saw it - an island platform station among many stations with side platforms with a third track to boot. I also remember the unused trackway at Classon Ave.
We had a maverick of a train on 6/7/69. The bull and pinion gears got up to F# above middle C between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Fulton St.
And for me it's the PCC Dallas Cars that roamed Hunting Ave in Boston.
Last Sunday I got to operate a double ender at the "Point", and enjoyed it very much.
BY THE WAY ... out of curiosity since it didn't show in Anon's picture that I could make out - was the 205th side of 1689 properly markered-up as green/green for concourse express? I do need to know what to punch for NB at 125th after all. :)
Kevin,
To be genuine, I doubt that many of the current RT aficionados at Branford would have erudition of the marker designations.
BTW do you pay homage at 1801?
:-) Sparky
I still remember the ones from the lines I ran and somewhere around here I have the rest ... Heaven help you if you had that wrong on the railroad in my day. Sure you punched, but most of the towers went by what they saw down the line, especially coming into 125 northbound. If you were green/green, you went to the center, if you were green white or white/white, you went to the local. Wasn't the tower's fault and they could prove it. Heh.
1801? Gotta plead brain damage on the association at the moment ...
Kevin,
It's in your back yard at the Empire State Museum in Smallbany.
>G< Gotcha.
:-) Sparky
OOOPPS, 1801 is in Smallbany. :-) Sparky
The ... remains ... you mean. They wired up its innards for 120 AC, yanked out most of the stuff, it has no trucks, plexiglass inside and many many unauthentic (ahem) "modifications" ... like I said, it'd make you cry ... did it for me.
Kevin,
I know it isn't the best example, but what is left is still alive,
even if modified. Or would you have favored it going back to nature.
It's in the eye of the beholder. Different strokes for different folks!
:-) Sparky
Yeah, I know ... but it's just a carcass as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I should be grateful that it's rotting away indoors. I take the R9's personally though - they're like that old Rambler that you cursed out while you drove it but still get teary-eyed every time you wax nostalgic about it being YOURS. Know whut I meen? :)
That's funny. My father still refers to the '62 Rambler we had as "nondescript". I still remember it, but never dream about it.
Selkirk, I had the same reaction and disappointment when I visited the State Museum a coupla years ago. I actually went because of the R-9. It seemed so unreal, almost like a replica with only half the car open. The hard seats made it seem post-warish. However I must admit the rest of the museum was great, especially the life size walk thru Indian tent. I recommend the museum to everybody but be forewarned: If you're an R1-9 fan, you WILL be disappointed with 1801!!!
Hate to say it, but the Indian Exhibit is pretty much JUST as bogus. It's nice to look at and all but not authentic. Sadly, the prime museum of the State of New York is just another cardboard tourist trap. Pretty and all but it's in the image of the educrat and bears about as much resemblance to reality as Paleontology 101 ...
But yeah, 1801 is a heartbreaker. Don't come up here just to see it. Stop in Kingston instead and go see R4 825. It's in sad shape too but at least it wasn't PHUCKED with ...
Maybe you ran 825 at some point as a motorman.
Probably did ... being an R4, good chance of it. But alas, when you're with the show you don't spot car numbers unless you're writing them up (or logging them in your little notebook so you can show management that you were NOT on that train when you get your carpet call for somebody else's misdeeds). But folks with the show don't have visions of car numbers dancing through their heads when it's sleepytime. If they DO, it's time to see the TA shrink. :)
What did the New York State Museum do to R-9 #1801? I'm unaware it was altered in any way. I'll appreciate any info. Thanks.
From what Kevin has said, they pretty much desecrated it.
Oh ... yeah ... right. Sorry, saw it once and it made me CRY what they did to that. I don't consider it as an R9, I consider it as screwed up garbage. You should SEE what they did to it - it'd make YOU cry too. Sorry, struck that one off the roster. Won't go near it.
I think they did that as "Selkirk bait" and for that I'm grateful. Only wish I had the time and income at the moment to go hang out down there for the summer.
You and me both. Had I not come out to Colorado in 1980 and remained back east, I would have been there each and every weekend.
Now if I was one of the residents of Branford out walking my dog (a lot of them do that on the line) this would be a scary sight !
Thanks for sharing the photos from a completely different prospective, she sure does fill up the opening in the green tunnel !
Mr rt__:^)
Oh Chris, Kevin's going to have to change his BVD's, when he looks at
this one. His R-9 signed up for his route. >G<
:-) Sparky
Actually, I've seen a number of pictures of her signed up for 205th. Someone at Branford must actually like me ... somewhat. :)
Valids for the IND at the time of demise were D, CC, KK, E, some F and of course the GG ... so knowing where they roamed in their final days (yeah, I know they were on eastern division BMT but they were outcasts over there) I'm quite honored that the D line got marked up considering how many other places were still running them too.
Actually if we put up the "F" sign, it would have NYC & locals happy, as our trolley line was part of the "F" line.
Mr rt__:^)
Mr. rt,
What part of our Trolley line was part of the "F" line?
We have trackage from the Church Avenue underpass of Ocean Parkway in
Brooklyn. This was served by the #35 Church Ave. cars with PCCs after
1951 from Ninth Ave. and 6000s from Canarsie till closing. The #69
Vanderbilt~McDonald or the later #50 McDonald served under the Culver
Line. [Oh pardon me, this is just another Mr. rt fallacy]
Also the "D" destined to Coney Island was the first invader of the
BMT south on Culver starting in 1954, till 1967 with Chrystie Street it went to the Brighton.
:-) Sparky
The F line was the original trolley line operating over what is now the Shoreline museum. It was part of the New Haven Division of the Connecticut Company. Service ended in 1947; however, it remained tied into the rest of the system for another year until all trolley service ended in 1948. The first cars acquired by the museum arrived under their own power.
Oh that "F" line...I did not compare the apples with the bananas.
:-) Sparky
So now you get the tie in with the "F" on the R-9, just for the local NIMBYs.
Well, I guess each and every one of us "dates" ourselves and our preferences with the subways - for me it was 1970 and 1971 when I worked there but I was an avid rider since I was a kid in the 50's until I left in the mid 70's ... as to the "Arnines" the F train usually got a good number of the newer rolling stock as it came out to play and I vividly remember the slants, 38's and 4x's as F trains. They did go out of their way to give the F the nicer toys whereas nearly every E train at the time was R9's.
R1/9's on the D were actually very rare though every CC train was universally R4's and 6's usually. They only ran on the D as rush hour put-ins and were rapidly whisked off the line so a solid line of 32's were the D train with some 4x's thrown in to stop the geese from whining about no air conditioned trains EVER ...
So yeah, in my own timeline the Arnines were pretty specific to certain lines whereas they were "bonus" on some others. Sadly I never rode the GG line other than once just to do it and at the time it was running R10's which I was told was unusual.
But when *I* see Arnines, first line that comes to mind is CC of course, then the old E train. Seemed at the time that they LIVED on those two lines but of course the CC was a rush hour job only. I was tickled silly though when I was given the graces of my awful pick to actually operate the R1/9's and so many folks on the crew were only too willing to "let the kid have his toy, I'll fall back." :)
Hey Kevin,
Toward the end the "CC" & the "GG" were where the R-10s were assigned.
It wasn't unusual, dependent on when to find the green R-10s on the "GG". I think the sixteens and the twentysevens paid their dues
on "GG" rails also.
:-) Sparky
Yeah, my lack of knowledge on the historicals was because I lived in the Bronx and reported to Stillwell. Didn't get to see much of Queens except for one diversion to Continental owing to a track fire on CPW. I did the GG once because I hadn't ever rode it somewhere in the late 60's, even did the Culver a few times for the thrill before it was closed. Sure did know my own route pretty well though as well as all the other Bronx lines. However that don't do ya much good here. :)
>>>...I lived in the Bronx and reported to Stillwell...<<<
I gather you weren't "friendly" with the (s)crew office.
Peace,
andee
Heh. Nope. It was one of several things that made me look for another career. The dynamics of the gig were not what I had hoped for and I didn't make a lot of friends down there (that mattered to the Stillwell boys at least) ... but it's a long long story that I've told before here ...
"Yeah, my lack of knowledge on the historicals was because ..."
For me I remember the R-9s & Standards, so with no experience of trolleys in NYC or Lo-Vs, Hi-Vs, D Types, etc. the signage doesn't matter too much.
When I operate at Shoreline those that remember are becoming few & far between. That's why we need to become a museum vs. a ride. There are lots out there who when introduced to one of these with a little history mixed in will come to love them as I have.
Mr rt__:^)
If the cars were to get to a condition where they'd not be able to RUN anymore, that'd be a genuine shame. When I was real small, the LoV's were still running on the mainlines. What a treat it was when I moved over to Norwood (204th St - D train's 205th St area) and got to ride the LoV's and WF LoV's on the third avenue el Bronx section. But yeah, similar thing for me - I *did* get to see trolleys as a kid in the Bronx but didn't know that they weren't busses while they were still running. The single headlight in the middle on the front wasn't enough of a distinguishing characteristic. Thanks, GM for that. :(
And when I think of the R-1/9s, the D always comes to mind first, followed by the AA. Those were the first IND trains I ever rode on.
For me it was the (F) and the (E).
Dad would park his car in Kew Gardens, and take the subway the rest of the way into work.
Elias
I have driven 6688, and yes, the brakes are sensitive. Just ask "HART BUS". He had us all on the floor.
Peace,
ANDEE
Kind of like the power brakes on GM cars of the early 70s, eh? You'd just tap the brake pedal on, say, a '73 Impala and your head would hit the windshield if you weren't wearing your seat belt.
Most of the redbirds had that characteristic. Musta been an amusing wakeup call for folks on the Flushing line running 62A's with conductors saluting the 11 car marker as the train sailed past it as folks got used to lesser brakes.
When the 32's were new, they were also good for geese through the foamer glass when you applied. Then of course came those awful cardboard brake shoes which removed the "fast brakes" ... I'd bet that 6688 still has its steel shoes and that's why ...
Very possible. On top of that 6688 probably still has full field shunting, too.
No more so, like a 1920's Brill Street Car built for the Boston
Elevated. The fatest stopping street car is a Type 5, such as
5821. What's your opinion Todd?
:-) Sparky
Along with some others I was given the privlidge of a little handle time in her at Seashore & don't recall any of us stone walling her on the stops.
Mr rt__:^)
They DO behave a bit better in sets. When I did schoolcar, we did it in singles at first and I was constantly getting pitched. First time out in a 10 car, I was wondering if we had actually stopped.
At Seashore, our Boston Elevated car #4387 has the "tightest" brakes, though the Type-5 (5821) comes close. The "loosest' are the Type -3 snowplows, 5109 and 5159.
Thanks Todd,
You knew what I was refering to about the tighest brakes.
I bow to the one whom has more handle time on the Boston cars.
I haven't had the experience of operating the plows yet.
BTW, my faved car at Seashore, BRT4547, currently not in service,
is unique when it comes to braking. When last operated in Brooklyn
as a salt car, the remaining lines all had loops. Therefore a brake
stand was removed on one end. When restored in the late eighties and
returned to service, as bi-directional, DC had installed a Boston
brake stand in the end it was removed. Prior to Talboot Park Loop,
it was a unique experience operating the "Brooklyn" car on the mainline.
You had Brooklyn soft braking one direction & Boston hard
braking in the opposing direction.
As for Branfords 6688, the braking is not tight, if properly applied.
I've operated 4387 & 5821, that's tight, as well as 6688, if you
don't try and stop on the mark, its soft.
Many unpracticed members will also find the braking on many cars tight at first.
That's what ya git with a well pampered SMEE car....;-D
The R-17 doesn't grab the way the R-9 does, so you can come to a nice smooth stop with the R-17 by just leaving a little air in the brake pipe (just like a trolley), but it takes a little time to get the feel of exactly where to have the brake handle. I need lots more practice on the R-9 < G >
Mr rt__:^)
Boobe ... here's the secret ... the GRAB is part of the design. It's intended to allow you to pull just shy of the conductor boards on a 10 car and MEAN it ... what you do is fan the brakes from lap to release a few times and just as you feel yourself lurch forward as momentum starts to get you, you do a RELEASE. That's why most of us preferred to operate standing up so your body would tell you WHEN. :)
Todd, I'm very happy to hear that Seashore's "A Train" get to heat up their motors. BTW where was Bill P. while you were at the controls ?
Mr t__:^)
Bill was tending the pole.
Then he operated, and I tended.
Will NJT be purchasing any new Diesel Locos?
Nah.... They are going to put the GG1s back in service! : )-
Don't listen to him, there are going to be new locomotives quite similar to the Genesis locomotives made by Alstrom, but made in the US.
NJT is geared toward having the ratio of electric trains to diesel trains of more electric than diesel. Consider the Boonton line electrification project. When the ALP-46's and the new Comet V's are in service, I doubt there will be any room to purchase any diesels. I think NJT has a good set of them already.
According to their site:
The plan calls for the largest rail equipment purchase in NJ TRANSIT’s history during the next five years: 200 single-level rail cars and 33 diesel locomotives by 2002; and 24 electric locomotives by 2003.
What will happen to NJT's old locomotives? Will the 33 be added onto its operating roster?
I would presume that most of the new ones will be replacements. The diesels that I see coming up from Bay Head on the NJCL are all very old and very tired - many were inherited by NJT from predecessor roads.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When the New Cars take off, do they take off slowly, like the LIRR and Amtrak Cars? And How smooth and comfortable are the new Cars? I haven't got the chance to experience these cars myself.
When they were new, the took off quite slow and then after it cleared about 15 MPH, it sped up quickly and strongly. Some speeds modifications were done and I haven't been hanging around them enough to be sure.
I'm no expert on this; but it appears that these new trains can reach 45 mph quicker than the older subway cars. Most (but not all) of the new trains ride relatively smoothly and in my opinion, are about as comfortable as every other train out there.
> about as comfortable as every other train out there
Although, of course, they would be even more comfortable if they had forward-facing seats!
- Lyle Goldman
The R142 can't go more than 40 :-(
Who are you kidding, I've seen the speed thing through tiny door cracks go to like 45-46 on a rerouted 2 express from 72-42 stretch...
I heard it couldn't go more than 40 due to some sort of modification. Did they change that?
I am still a Redbird fan, nothing beats the birds on that section of 7th Avenue although I have yet to ride the R142 on the express there.
Modifications, schmodifications. Cable companies "cap" your cable modem line so you can't download in my case over 250k/s. I end up going 252 at times.
But 46 MPH isn't just going over 40 in my book. Also, there are no significant grades on that section of track anyway.
Do you mean the cable internet line? I have Time Warner NYC and I've hit 300+ kbps on downloads (using multiple connections via Download Accelerator, of course).
Dan
I have Optimum Online in NY-occupied Brooklyn and get up to 500 KB (capitalization matters) regularly.
Yeah the 142's are pretty fast, had one one the 5 for a really fast Lex express ride.
They do seem to accelerate quite smoothly without the "jerkiness" of older DC traction, but they accelerate quicker than LIRR cars, even though LIRR does have higher top speed.
Rev. 7 software on R142s was set to provide an easy non-jerking start and acceleration because of customer complaints. Braking is another matter: while trying to 'sleep' coming back from official business (we can't drive our cars on duty,) my butt would slide down the seat every time the brakes were applied. One defect you may note in travel is a 'bunka-bunka' noise and feeling in the fixed couplings...shear bolts are failing (like in the R62s.) CI Peter
That noise actually comes from the wheels on the new Tech Trains, which means the wheels are slipping on the rails from too much power and the train is trying to correct itself!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
The 142s are VERY smooth. I can stand without having to hold onto a pole. :-)
They need to upgrade the A/C units on the R-44's! The A/C was terrible on the A Line on 5/16, It was hot and that awful smell from that homeless person. DAMN!
That sounds like it might have been a defect in one particular car, unless that homeless person followed "AcelaExpress2005" into every R-44 car he (she?) rode that day.
David
At this hour, the weather-delayed work of replacing the CTA Brown Line elevated structure across Wacker Drive is underway. Service was suspedend for the weekend at 10:00 PM CST, the existing elevated structure is being cut up and removed, and the new 111 foot long span, currently sitting beside its final resting place, will be rolled into place and attached to the previously installed foundation footings. The entire operation is expected to take about 50 hours, and will be done well in time for the resumption of normal service by Monday morning's rush hour.
Article in Chicago Tribune
-- Ed Sachs
Photo in Monday's paper
-- Ed Sachs
Dear Ed:
I traveled over the 'new' span this morning and this afternoon.
I took a Ravenswood (Brown) Line train to the Merchandise Mart (end of service for the weekend) yesterday (Sunday) at about 1 PM from Wellington to the Mart. The 'new' span was already in place. I went downstairs to where the waiting Brown Line Shuttle buses were waiting. I hoped on a Nova bus, almost new I think, but I didn't get the number. It dropped me off at LaSalle and Lake. I walked over the the 'L' entrance on the North side of Lake. I rode the 'round the Loop' train using the 'outer' track. The signal indication for the train to turn from going EAST on Lake to SOUTH on Wells was RED over LUNAR. We made all the 'Brown Line' stops, but I hoped off at Library to catch a #6 Jeffrey bus to see a friend in Hyde Park.
The CTA was using the X-over just north of the curve north of the Mart. The train I was on (Run #405) stopped short of the X-over, and a flagman got on, with the 'Green' flag. We then proceeded into the 'southbound berth' at the Mart. There was two four-car trains layed up on the 'northbound berth'. One was the Historical Society Ravenswood train, and the other looked like a 'protect' train.
Hats off to the crew that did the job in 50 hours (or less).
The intersection at Wacker & Wells doesn't have support columns in the street since Wacker Drive was first built, circa - I don't know.
I believe that when the L was built there, it was before Wacker Drive was built. Wacker Drive replaced South Water Street and a row of warehouses between the street and the river. I imagine that the columns in the middle of Wacker Drive were at the edge of South Water St, which was considerably narrower.
-- Ed Sachs
When I rode a train of R-68s on the "Q" to Coney Island on March 24, 2002 I boarded car #2802 and that all too familiar noise common to the R-68s was quite prominent with this particular car. The noise was so annoying that I had to wear the hood that I use in cooler weather to help keep my minor cleft palate from bothering me, to help reduce the assault to the ears from the noise emanating from the loudspeakers instead. If I didn't use my hood, the noise would have made me go bananas. When I left Coney Island I boarded an R-68A on the "Q" and rode in car #5130. What a world of difference, there was no annoying noise at all and, the train of R-68As moved faster than the R-68s. Is there anything that the T/A can do to eliminate the noise on the R-68s? If so why don't they do it. This noise can drive some people up the wall.
#3 West End Jeff
You didn't describe the noise.....
was it a scratchy whine of a moderate tone that went away when
the PA announcement came on?
Jeff old buddy ... I've caught it too ... what it is is screeching bearings on the axles ... obviously "dry" for reasons only Coney Island Shop can explain. For what it's worth, I rode a number of Train Dude's baby carriages and never heard it - same for other CIY cars. For some reason, some trucks get into screeching ...
The pitch increases with speed, gets better or worse with side to side motions by the cars as they roll and it MOST loud where it occurs. It varies though and that tells me "dry bearings" ... but then, what do I know about cars? Heh.
Jeff: "...to help reduce the assault to the ears from the noise emanating from the loudspeakers instead."
Selkirk: "...what it is is screeching bearings on the axles..."
Let me get this straight... screeching bearings on the axels cause the speakers to make noise?
Nope ... "ground loops" from poorly wired cars have nothing to do with bearing noises ... that's what I caught although I DID hear some weird noises on a northbound trip on CPW from one of Train Dude's cars but it went away as soon as we got north of 145th ...
Apples, oranges, have a nice day. Moo. :)
You are probably right that the noise in the R-68s must be coming from the "ground loops". There is no way that it could be coming from the truck bearing, otherwise you would hear it only when the train is moving. This noise you hear all of the time and it comes through the loudspeakers.
#3 West End Jeff
Yep ... that's ANOTHER issue entirely. I *did* hear it on one car. Strange how others don't have the problem. It was really noticeable on CPW northbound and went away when the train left 145th to da Bronx. But noise on the PA is always the result of "ground loops" in the PA wiring ... dunno why CPW brought it out in spades and it went away. Maybe better track grounding elsewhere ... but it's a PA problem. Noise shouldn't be getting into the amplifiers if the wiring is properly grounded and stray voltage is kept out of the input loop of the amplifiers ... audio 101 ...
I also hear that noise one some R40s. Anyone else hear it too?
Yes. But on the R40, you only hear it when a truck gets cut off from power such as a gap in the third rail. And it starts fading away when it's back in contact.
I've might have heard the noise on the R-40s, but I can't be sure since I haven't ridden them in a while.
#3 West End Jeff
It is true that a section of track could cause interference on the PA.
For example, when I have a put-in from Jamaica Yard to Parsons or 179, I have to go up 10 track to reach the mainline. While on 10 track, the PA starts whining like crazy, no matter if it's a R32 or an R46. Once I enter the mainline, the squeal goes away. Same thing with R68's on the Sea Beach and Brighton lines. I've just never known what could be causing this, I always assumed that it was a 3rd rail thing.
R62s are also prone to this, especially by 72 St/B'way northbound.
Sometimes I get static through my headphones in certain parts of the subway system, usually near signal rooms or substations. This is while listening to a tape or even when nothing is on at all.
Must be some type of electromagnetic interference. Also I remember hearing how all the juice going through Penn station messed up the TV monitors colors.
Nope ... improper grounding on the input side to the electronics. It could probably be retrofitted with an audio transformer that would break the ground loop, allowing the audio through and stopping the noise. A "ground loop" can often result in oscillation and it sound like that's what's going on. Wiring up radio studios in the face of strong electrical fields is the basis by which I make this suggestion, I've been there before and compared to radio and TV transmitters, a piddly third rail is a minor pain by comparison. It could be solved and relatively cheaply ...
the noise from the truck sounds like:
arrrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuuuuuuiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
as it starts up
Selkirk,
Cars today have sealed roller bearings. If the bearing is making
noise, then the lube has gotten fouled or there is a serious
defect. SMEE trucks do not have side bearings like R-9 trucks.
The PA noise has been discussed before. I just wanted to clarify
that the symptoms were the same. I've observed it on the Jamaica
R-32 fleet. The noise is most intense when the train is taking
power. "David" on this board tells me the TA still can't figure
out the problem. Too bad I don't work for TA engineering anymore.
I know how to fix it pretty cheaply using 1 spare trainline.
Yeah, the noise was DEFINITELY coming from the bearings (having worked the railroad years ago, I can tell right where they would be from inside a car) since the frequency of the noise varied with speed and the intensity of it varied with side to side motion of the truck. As to how many cars have this problem, I have no idea. But the one I was on that one day in the city was definitely an unhappy car and I was told there's others with the same problem.
If there isn't DC carried on the audio trainline wire (it'd be REAL dumbassed if there is DC there) then a simple lashup of a 600 ohm transformer would break the loop and kill the audio assuming that PA audio is more than one volt in amplitude on that line. If it's 70.7 volts as is done in many "real" PA systems, definitely no excuse. In all sincerity, I'd need to see a schematic but I'll bet the problem can be easily solved by any of us old timey radio broadcast engineer types. :)
Actually, there is DC on the trainline. The audio signal is
capacitively coupled on top of the L1 lighting control trainline,
at least in the original design. Train Dude could comment on
what portion of the fleet still retains that. However, that's
only part of the problem. The noise that I hear sounds to my
untrained ear (where's SteveB or WayneR40?) to be the 360 Hz
rectification (rectification is good, baby, heh he heh)
ripple which is present on the 600V traction power. As long as there
is a mic talking on the line, the signal is strong enough to
overwhelm that ripple. The defect seems to be that the PA Control
relays are coming in when they shouldn't. This could be due to
a DC ground imbalance condition as there is very little noise
margin on that circuit with the older design (0 volts= no PA,
no HVAC, 24 volts=HVAC only, 36 volts=HVAC+PA). Since everything
is referenced to chassis ground, while traction power is being
drawn, it doesn't take much in the way of a bad return to
cause a few volts imbalance across the length of the train.
Geez ... if that's the case, then there's not much room for a cure. Some capacitors would take care of the 360 Hz ripple, but would also ground out the audio. Trilevel logic for the controls also sounds like excessive optimism on the designer's part as well. I was expecting unbalanced audio on a dedicated wire with perhaps amplifier DC power on it also. In such a situation, you COULD use a transformer to pick off the audio and still have the DC on there with a capacitor to block the DC from the transformer windings. I realize there ain't a lot of wires on the electric section so options are limited.
Now imagine all the fun of having a computer LAN using such an arrangement trainline. Yipe! :)
Now imagine all the fun of having a computer LAN using such an arrangement trainline. Yipe! :)
Presumably the "new tech" trainsets use a PAIR of pins for
each lan bus and run twisted pair or coax on each car. Digital
signals are actually much easier to work around noise especially
if one applies sophisticated error recovery schemes. Look how
much performance a modern modem squeezes out of that noisy
analog phone line!
Actually modems and RF links do rather POORLY in noise when they're digital ... same for LANs ... if things are QUIET, an analog signal can still be reconstructed with a phase lock loop WAY into the dirt whereas once impairment reaches a certain threshhold, digital works to a point and then has a narrow edge of trash after which it goes away entirely. Anyone with a satellite dish can describe the experience. It works, then it starts taking hits and then pooferoo ... gone.
But if they're doing it on the trains with a pair, then it would mean that they're doing some form of (analog) signal processing. But in my years, I've seen digital collapse long before analog would. It's all a matter of where that threshhold is and where the noise levels are in relation to it ...
What I meant there was that with PLL's and signal processing, analog will do a LOT better in noise than digital will. Somehow I phrased the last one in such a way that it seemed as though I was fighting my own argument. Sleepy time. :)
Anyhoo, if the PA noise is *so* loud that it can be heard in speakers driven from a "line level input" then chances are quite good that level of noise will trash digital signals on the trainlines as well. I'd be quite curious to see how reliable it turns out in the real world though ... it'd make me nervous on a theoretical basis.
Exactly why I continue to record on the cassette tape. The analog method is easy to use, provides natural sound quality, and will not be ruined if there is a momentary power loss (where I live, that happens alot).
360 Hz equates to E above middle C or thereabouts, or about what those R-1/9 AA trains got up to between 59th and 72nd on those two Sundays in May of 1967.
I haven't ridden on too many R-68 consists lately, so I can't comment on the noise you guys are referring to.
Even the 68A's have that noise too! Well, not as bad as the R68's. Although everytime I ride them on the Q or on any line, I am used to it, so it does not bother me.
I haven't had the noise on the R-68As so far, but you never know.
#3 West End Jeff
Sometimes it drowns out the panhandlers :)
--Mark
...and sometimes it drowns out the annoying people who bitch about the annoying noise. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Just like the little kids on the R-142's parrotting the annoying announcements sometimes drown out the announcements themselves.
That is SO annoying! I was goin from Canal to Pelham and since 96th, the people across from me were doing the "next stop is" (not to mention getting half of them wrong while looking at the strip) and the door chime. The saddest part is that they were ~17.
I had it on Sunday from 125th to PBP. But it was coming from the mouth of a cute four-year-old, so I didn't mind much. He also got a lot of the stations wrong, but he wasn't looking at the strip map.
In the 70's, the TA embarked on a program to make all stations look alike. Fortunately, that never made it beyond the BMT, and it's being corrected now. A few years ago, the TA embarked on a program to make all trains look and sound alike. I hope somebody sees the error before this goes too far.
I promise not to do that anymore :)
--Mark
I heard that whining noise on an R68 Circle Q I rode today. It is irritating. It sounds like it's struggling to move and it is. That Hippo ride made me feel sick (sorry I just can't help it, I'm not a fan of the Hippos).
Also just to add, it seems only the CI R68's (the ones that run on the N and circle Q) make the annoying whining noise while moving, the Concourse ones (on the B and D) seem to operate better and don't make that noise.
>>>... the Concourse ones (on the B and D) seem to operate better and don't make that noise.<<<
Oh yes they do.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't remember saying anything about the PA whine, but I say so many things...
David
All of the cars using the Comco PA equipment have that noise to some extent. The noise varies by location to the extent that some lines have almost no problem and other lines have it extensively. The noise seems to be more prevalent on the 4 and 5-car links than on the single cars or married pairs. The problem is under investigation and several modified units are undergoing testing on several cars.
R40 slants have that same loud whine too. What causes the R68s and R40s to make that noise?
There have been some posts pointing the blame to a certain wire that is improperly grounded thereby creating the ANNOYING noise.
#3 West End Jeff
Well, for my own comments on the matter I'd REALLY have to see a schematic. I'm GUESSING that the audio on the trainline is at line level and there's amplifiers in each car picking up that signal input and amplifying it into the speakers in each car locally. I *doubt* that they're sending "speaker level" signals down the trainline. But it isn't the wire that I'm blaming, it's the input to the amplifiers that doesn't seem able to reject "common mode noise" and there's ways around that - the crudest method of which would emply audio transformers. The more sophisticated solution would be using Digital signal processing chips to null the noise on a predictive basis.
How the TA deals with it though is anybody's guess and my own guesses are invalid without seeing a schematic to see how it's "as built."
It would be interesting where the signal is coming from that prodices that ANNOYING noise on the R-68s.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm not sure if such things exist on the internet, but I'd be interested at looking at maps for railroad tracks. If not, I have a question...
there's a railroad bridge in astoria that crosses over the Ditmars N train station, which seems to go west, since it's perpendicular, but somehow goes North and up toward New Haven. Can anyone explain where/how it makes this turn?
Responses are much appreciated. This question has been nagging me for days now.
You don't really need a track map for that. You only need a regular street map. Even the NYC Subway map does a pretty good job. Basically, it goes roughly along the Triborough Bridge, then goes up through the Bronx, then to Westchester County where it joins the Metro North New Haven Line, and finally along the New England Throughway and Connecticut Turnpike to New Haven and points beyond.
- Lyle Goldman
Ok, thanks. I didn't have a physical subway map in front of me, and the online version doesn't show RR trackage.
Except the map only does the approximate location of the line, not its actual location. It starts in the Sunnyside Yard in the right place more or less but it crosses Queens Boulevard at the Northern Blvd. Station which you can see from the Amtrak train if you are on the left side when heading towards Boston (I think it crosses closer to Steinway on the map) and then crosses over the Ditmars Boulevard Station (it is closer to Astoria on the map). In the Bronx, it passes the 6 near Whitlock Avenue if I recall correctly, but it is harder to see the 6 because it passes over the Amtrak line. It is easier to find the G/R/V and N stations since they are below the Amtrak train.
Hells Gate Bridge is your key word search.
In answer to the question about where it turns from west to north, it does that on Ward's Island, just parallel and northeast of the Queens leg of the Triboro Bridge, which makes the same curve.
Well this will be an interesting weekend on the IRT.
No.1 Line: 242 Street to Chambers. Crews out of New Lots reassigned to the No.4 Line.
No.2 Line: Uptown runs on the Lexington Ave line Nevins to 149-GC.
No.3 Line: NO SERVICE and ALL train crews must call the crew office for there job. Yes if you have a picked No.3 Line job you are Extra this weekend.
No.5 Line: Runs from Dyre Ave to Times Square 7 Ave Express all weekend around the clock from 7AM Saturday to 5AM Monday.
Let the games begin!!!!!!!!
I'm ready to visit the Westside again since I left the No.1 Line. Since I'm on the No.5 all weekend I will be seeing a lot of Westside.
No.1 Line: 242 Street to Chambers. Crews out of New Lots reassigned to the No.4 Line.
If the 1 terminates at Chambers, (which I have noticed), then where do the trains from New Lots come from?
I rode the #1 from Bergen St. to 34 St on Wednesday. and the #1 and #2 line service change already started last Wednesday.
The trains to New Lots come from Woodlawn via Lex Express
No, I mean the train FROM New Lots. On Wednesday around 12:10a, I heard a #1 train pull its emergency brake at Chambers St. I was on a #1 UPTOWN there, and it came from New Lots. Where did this train come from?
That was 11:30pm Nlts to VC, which is the BTW, the last #1 train to leave Bklyn.
That was my old intervel 2 picks ago. Do you know what it feels like to be the last crew to do 2 trips to New Nots and being on the last train and the crews who sign in after you go home before you.
Dave, that's what "paying dues" is all about. EVERYBODY down here has had at least one pick "from hell".
I've had 2. One when I was working 5 OPTO trips on the G between Court Sq and 4th Av every Sat/Sun, and one two picks ago when I picked AM extra and the Crew Office treated me like a used dishrag.
In past versions of this GO, 3 trains ran local, filling in for the missing NB 2 local service north of 14th.
This time there is no 3. So shouldn't the NB 5 run local? (Trains are turning at Chambers, so 1 service can't be increased -- if anything, it may have been decreased.) With both the 1 and 2, locals fill up like mad on Sunday evenings. I have a feeling 72nd won't be a pleasant sight.
As well, the official notice posted at 2/3 stations (that includes local stations, last I checked) directs 2 passengers bound for Lenox or the Bronx to use the 5. If the 5 is running local, shouldn't it direct them to take the 1 to the 5?
If you thought THAT was bad, you should have seen some of the nonsense they were passing off as BMT service to-day:
1) ABSOLUTELY NOTHING through Montague-Tube.
2) Again, absolutely NOTHING between De Kalb Avenue and Prospect Park, on the Brighton Line.
End result?
"R" service terminating at Canal (with the attendant mass confusion and angry passengers trying to cram through the narrow passageways); and shuttling between 59th and 95th.
"N" service being shunted over the Bridge.
Absolutely NO "W" service at all.
"Q" service in two installments, one of which substituted for the "W" via West End (running, much to my delight, about 60% Slants from the weekday Diamond "Q" service) and the other that ran as a backwards shuttle between CI and Prospect Park, with the lead motors marked "S" with a yellow bullet!
One more thing: Eastern Division only has 32 slants left. Unit numbers up to and including 4414-4415 are back in CI. I would guess for every R143 that enters service, a set of 8 slants goes back to CI.
wayne
wayne
""R" service terminating at Canal (with the attendant mass confusion and angry passengers trying to cram through the narrow passageways); and shuttling between 59th and 95th.
"N" service being shunted over the Bridge.
Absolutely NO "W" service at all.
"Q" service in two installments, one of which substituted for the "W" via West End (running, much to my delight, about 60% Slants from the weekday Diamond "Q" service) and the other that ran as a backwards shuttle between CI and Prospect Park, with the lead motors marked "S" with a yellow bullet!"
Makes one wonder why they didn't combine the Continental - Canal (R) with the 57th - West End - Stillwell (Q). That would've been interesting...
I wonder if Fred saw that "N service being shunted over the bridge" part. It would be a small consolation or perhaps a moral victory for the N.
The northbound N ran normal, via tunnel.
I daresay the IRT GO causes greater inconvenience. There is no access to the West Side IRT from Brooklyn. Stops between Park Place and Clark have only southbound service (and backtracking isn't possible, since all NB trains are running via the East Side). And 1 service, which makes up more than half of the trains on the West Side, ends at Chambers, jamming up through service there. You got off an A train at Park Place to take a 1 or 2 uptown? Good luck getting there! Probably your best bet at that point is to get back on an A or C, go one more stop to Broadway-Nassau, take an uptown 2, 4, or 5 (all via Lex) to 14th, and cross on one of the BMT lines. Let's see an average, non-railfan IRT rider figure that one out on the fly!
My 1 train terminated at 14st where the 3 would yesterday. I'll take another ride today, and see what happens.
Yes there was a GO where No.1 trains made there last stop 14 Street. The GO ended 9PM last night.
I'll be on the No.5 line going to Times Square.
Yes, mine did the same this evening. I assume some 1's were continuing to Chambers. The last time this GO was on, all 1's turned at Chambers, and they had to use both tracks, impeding through 2 service. I didn't make it down to Chambers but I guess the idea was to try to confine 1's to the local track, with the trains that wouldn't fit there turning at 14th.
I assume this is why 3 service was suspended.
This led to the unusual situation at 14th of northbound locals stopping on the SB express track, on the NB express track, and even on the NB local track (I wouldn't have believed it, since all trains were supposed to run express from Chambers to 14th, but I saw a train there with my own eyes).
1. the #1 trains should be terminating at Chambers track 1.(SB local). There were signs posted from Canal to Christopher earlier stating that uptown trains will run express from Chambers to 14Sts. I will check this out later on today. Unless there are the usual "every two-three for every one 2 train weekend madness."
2. There are no 5 trains running on the Lex. All 5 trains are running from Dyre Ave to Times Square. Go ahead and get your Redbird express runs.
3. Also for Bklyn pax, I believe we got to tell them to use Atlantic Ave for the N and Q, 14St for the N,Q,R, and GC for the GCS.(No #7 service out of Manhattan this weekend.)
Like I said, Ill see how it go down today.
Its MADNESS!!! Trust me I did it yesterday. The No.5 line is running 12 to 15 Minutes headways as well.
Mike---
The 1s, were making local stops between Franklin and Christopher last night, so those trains had to be turning on the S/B Express Track. I'd assume if they wanted to get the train out ASAP, they would have dropped back one crew, and have another come aboard for the trip north.
-Stef
What time was this? It must have been when headway were much larger to accomodate them to switch on the SB xpress track.
About 9:30 Last Night.
-Stef
All is as you report, except that some 1's were turning at 14th.
I still don't know why the NB 5 was running express. It was there specifically to fill in for the 2. The 2 runs local. Thus the 5 should have run local. My NB 1 C/R this evening had to make announcements at each local stop to try to convince people to get on her train and not to wait for a 2.
I overheard someone on a SB 5-bird wondering why the train wasn't running to 14th as it usually does. She must have thought it was a 3, even though the 3 hasn't run anything but R-62A's for 15 years or so.
I had those questions all day. Why are you not going to 14 Street?? Because this is a No.5 train to Times Square wait for the No.1,2 Trains.
I did have alittle fun with this GO I got see some of my friends on the No.1 Line.
Also tonight there was a Fight on my train in the first car at Times Square on the Uptown side so we left 4 Minute late.
That was your train!!! We oulled into TS around that time it happened. Did it move across the platform?
The fight went on to the Platform and then on a No.1 train and back on to the platform back on my train then to the Platfrom. This guy lifted this ladys wallet and they guy ran on my train and the lady followed him. Now the lady told my T/O this and 4 other woman came to her aid. They asked him to give her money back he refused and all 5 woman starting beating the guy up. The platfrom C/R and TSS held the guy from police.
I'd like to thank you for posting this. It made me look like a bleeding genius at Prospect Park on Sunday, knowing that there were no 1 trains at Franklin and that the NB 2s were running up Lex. Now if only there was an easy way to get them to understand "Last Stop!" Almost every conversation with customers started like this -
Cust - "What do you mean, last stop? What do i do now?"
Me - "Where do you want to go? Tell me and I can help you."
Cust - "Manhattan!"
Things went downhill from there. It's amazing how many people have absolutely NO IDEA where they are going. After about the 300th go-round of this, one woman yelled at me for raising my voice at the last person I had been talking to, and then promptly went and asked the same question -"How do I get to Manhattan?" So I told her to take the Franklin Shuttle one stop and transfer for the 4 train. Take the 4 train four stops and get off. Then walked away to get on my train.
I know how you feel,i was at Coney Island yesterday at the W platform where regular Q service from Manhattan was terminating.there was this guy who looked confused as hell.i asked him where'd he wanna go and he said Ave.U I told him to follow me so i can walk him to the regular Q platform so he can take the shuttle and he just stood there with a 2 Q's having left i told him to go to the other platform and he didnt listen,i finally gave up,made my way to Nathan's and when i got aboard an F train and looked at the platform and he wasnt there. either he finally understood someone else or he left stupidfied wondering "which way do i go? duh which way do i go?"
Just to let you guys know as of last week there are now 5 sets of SILVER 7s.
Ok.....And this is not to be expected?
4 r10s
3 r9's
2 bluuue birds
AND A PARTRIGE IN A PEAR TREE!!!!!!!!!
(im sorry, it was toooo tempting))
lol
Touche!
Yeah!!! Two sets were running today and I got to operate both of them. All cars except for 2129 had purple Corona stickers.
So you get to drive them! Great, though why aren't all the yard stickers all purple yet? Do you have a shortage? ;)
The word of AE weekend service cutback got me thinking about Amtrak's future...is this company still in danger of being "dismanteled," meaning some other company takes over? Or will the gov't finally fund it more? -Nick
What future?
It's dead. It's just not officially dead yet.
Though Gunn's the only one i could see turning it around, I have my doubts even he can do it, and frankly, I have my doubts congress will even fun Amtrak anymore.
They were supposedly to be operationally self sufficient this year, they fell way short. This was a deal they made the LAST time congress bailed them out.
At this point, the question Congress seems to be asking is 'Why bother funding a failed system", and there's really no good answer to that.
Another thing this *might* help bring to light is the FRA's insane regulations and regulatory attitude, which is not only totally out of step with the rest of the world, but hardly successful and a big drag on passenger rail in the US.
Interestingly, I read somewhere the NTSB is *finally* going to look into the Suplerliner's tendancy to flip in even slight derailments. It's about time. My wild assed guess is they'll find the COG of the cars to be significantly different (i.e., higher), than most other cars out there.
>>Why bother funding a failed system"<<
I am sure at least one NYC pol said the same about the IRT, the BMT, and Fifth Ave Coah Lines at one time or another. Defending ATK management not me, but demanding a functional national rail passenger system you bet.
AS to Superliner problems, I suggest a study of whose tracks they flip on. Remember when the SDPF40's were derailing regularly at high speeds BUT only on some RR's while others had no incidents? Clue--Santa Fe no problems even at 79+--CS/SCL trouble over 60.
See the FRA website for their early 2000 track defects report on CSX--INCLUDING trackage which had supposedly been recently spruced up for the Conrail split. BTW, FWIW I believe Superliners were thoroughly field tested at the Pueblo facility before entering revenue service.
The Superliners were designed by Pullman in the mid-70's. Pueblo didn't exist back then. Railcars tipping over is not a problem. It is the car ripping over, compressing or bending that really kills people.
Thats interesting about SDP40F only derailing on certain properties. I always thought the problem was the one with the locomotive's water tanks being in the wrong place and the water sloshing around threw the locomotive off balance on turnouts. When someone first told me about the SDP40F issue I also thought it was track, but then since it doesn't happen to the F40s I assume it is loco, and now you got me suspicious again...
For my part, it doesn't really surprise me that Superliners flip more than Amfleets etc but AFAIK they are also limited to lower speeds for that reason -- Amfleets are authorized up to 125mph whilst Superliners are 90mph animals. As for the Seaboard line turning more cars over, it may simply be due to the curvature on the line (ATSF had lines that were wayyyy straighter than anything in the East -- esp when compared to the L&N!)
Alicia
while in general you may be correct about some CSX former SCL routes and especially the L&N and CRR lines, I believe he original SAL includes some of the longest tangent track east of the Mississippi.
At the time of the SDP40F fiasco, there was quite a lot of chatter within railfan circles because the RR's blamed the trucks--which were the same as on freight engines they were runnng. Go figure.
At the end of their lives some of the SDP40F's were bought by Santa Fe and ran several more years before being scrapped. In response to JM's post I have sent a query to the AAR Pueblo test folks as to whether they ever did any work on the Superliners.. It is clear that some further research will be done in the Auto Train wreck report when NTSB finishes investigating. I will post here when it is released.
Go to www.trains.com and sign up to read railroading news across North America.
There is a batch of articles regarding AMTRAK in the three links of current news, and a lot more when you search through the old news archives.
The latest news is that Amtrak and Pennsylvania are planning on a $140 million budget to enhance its Keystone service, mainly to have an entirely electrified line to Harrisburg. This will extend the 110-mph stretch and will cut travel times back to 90 minutes.
But then again, I a news article in May (I think) titles "AMTRAK may run out of cash this year," and another on "AMTRAK will slice all long-distance trains if there is a lack of funding." In the middle of this quagmire, AMTRAK's Warrington (I forgot which position he held) has switched to managing NJ TRANSIT (is he now the executive director?) and leaves Gunn to do his job of trying to save the company, as he has saved NYC Transit and one other rail co. during his career.
When is the due date when the complete order of LIRR M-7's be in New York?
-AcelaExpress2005
Ok, if Robert Moses didnt exist we would defintly have a highway system quite differently from the one that we have today. Espcially the Cross Bronx Expressway, which did Robert Moses in. (He was a fool for doing that) Also the IND Second System would have more then likely been built since the fundings would have been there.
Now is there a chance that maybe the city can correct the errors made by Robert Moses, the "anti-city" and the highways system. Like taking a cord and straightning it out?
So if Robert Moses didn't exist what do you think the city would look like today??
Well....It's hard to since Moses was alive! Though, if we think about it, it can't really be determined if the highway system Moses built was needed at the time or if it created the congestion seen today. That was something Moses was to shortsighted to see.
If Moses wasn't there then, the IND second system proably would have been built and maybe the expansions planned for the rest of the system would have gone on too.
Is there of reviving these plans? Not as likely, IMO. The MTA has enough things to worry about, including:
-2nd Avenue Subway
-Upgrading the entire current system to modern times
-A tight budget
-If NYC ever sees the Olympics in 2012, the necessary expansions. The 7 and L already have their preliminary plans set.
I'm notbeing pessimistic about this, though it may be a very long time before the IND second system is considered again. Unfortunately, this means delays and congestion for Queens commuters for decades to come. :(
If Moses wasn't there then, the IND second system proably would have been built and maybe the expansions planned for the rest of the system would have gone on too.
Moses didn't make much of a difference as far as the Second System was concerned. Blame the Great Depression, then World War II.
Yes...I remember those factors now, but didn't Moses being anti-transit in a hand in that, also?
re Great Depression and WWII killing off Second System
Yes...I remember those factors now, but didn't Moses being anti-transit in a hand in that, also?
It no doubt was a contributing factor. Even so, I suspect that nothing much could have gotten the Second System built, what with historical events.
And frankly once the city took over the IRT and BMT - it simply lost interest in the Second System. The IND was designed with one thing in mind - Destroy the BMT and IRT - once that was accomplished there was no reason to expand.
> The 7 and L already have their preliminary plans set.
And where can we find these plans? Are they on MTA's official website?
- Lyle Goldman
Yes, go to the Planning Studies section.
"The 7 and L already have their preliminary plans set."
The extension of the 7 is being pushed by Bloomberg. But what even halfway serious talk is there of extension of the L? Message board and out-of-the-blue New Jersey fantasies don't count as plans.
Well, there would be no Throggs Neck or Verazano Bridges, The GCP would not have been built, nor the Norther or Souther State Parkways.
That would have slowed the push to Long Island, though not by that much. Commuting would have been almostexclusively by LIRR and there would be more dense housing in easter Queens, with subawy lines extended easterly more than they do now.
OTH: What if Moses were pro-transit, and used hsi NIMBY SMASHER to expand transit properly!
Elais
If he was pro transit and a NIMBY smasher!! OMG! This city's transit system would be HUGE! IND Second System, the IRT would be B division size, the BMT second system. God so many lines, GOD! I would have loved that, cause there would be little demolition.
More to the point, NIMBYs had no power or cohesiveness in Moses' day.
I remember there were some houses, new tract houses built where he wanted to build an off-ramp for the SSP...
Eminent-Domain: heres a few bucks,... go buy a house over there... and in came the bull-dozers.
And the NIMBYs (geese in those days) would bob their heads... Oh Thank You Mr. Moses,,,, thank-you thank-you!
Now you can't even raise a goose in your yard without a NIMBY hauling your ass off to court for 60 years.
VETO by Delay! one of the oldes and most effective tactics in the book.
Even out here... New power lines cannot be built across empty farmland... the cows might glow in the dark or something!
HUMPH
It's too bad that those NIMBY's are so dense and don't realize the amzing PROS building new subway lines would have on their communities. Then, they're caught b!tching about the congestion and delays in the system! ROTFLMAO!!!
If only Moses was here today, with a pro-transit attitude! he would whip those NIMBY's into shape!
Northern Nassau county is the king of NIMBY. We have very poor LIRR access, few commercial developments, and roads that need widening, BADLY. Anybody who sits in traffic on Northern Blvd or Greenvale knows what I mean.
If somebody could whip the NIMBY's into shape he'd get my vote.
For Northern Nassau county I'd like to see
-Electrification of the Oyster Bay branch, it is way overdue
-Widenining of major intersections on Northern Blvd, elimination of some, and better traffic light timing
-Dedicated right lanes for buses only, no cars, so buses can make better time
-Commercial development, improved utility stores like supermarkets and drugstores
You keep on knocking NIMBYS. NIMBY means not in my back yard. As a homeowner, if any type of construction threatens my property values or my family's quality of life I will fight tooth and nail against it. That doesn't make me a bad person.
John, admit it. Cars will always be the way of life for Long Island. Millions have been spent on the HOV lanes on the LIE and there is no real negligible increase in carpooling.
["Electrification of the Oyster Bay branch, it is way overdue"]
I don't see how electrification of the OB Branch can help in any way. Right now they have the most modern trains on the LIRR. A one seat ride? I doubt it. There are several electric branches that don't regularly go to Penn such as Far Rockaway. An electric OB line would be like the West Hempstead Line. A shuttle during the afternoon (like it is now) and a mostly Flatbush line. The problem with the Oyster Bay Branch is that is a North/South branch between Mineola and OB after 30 miles of East/West. Electric or diesel, most people don't want to spend another 45 minutes without getting any further east after the 30-40 minute ride to Mineola. Not when they could drive to either Port Washington, Syosset, or Mineola.
["Dedicated right lanes for buses only, no cars, so buses can make better time"]
Sea Cliff isn't Manhattan. Why should the thousands of drivers be inconvenienced for the small comparitively amount of LI Bus riders. If the N20 didn't spend so much time detouring to the Great Neck Station and through two college campuses (CW POST & Old Westbury) it could make up alot of time!!!
Two options John:
Move
Start driving and get a car!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't see how electrification of the OB Branch can help in any way. Right now they have the most modern trains on the LIRR. A one seat ride? I doubt it."
Well if the 63rd street LIRR tunnel opens with access to GCT, more trains can run to Manhattan.
For some reason most diesel lines have long headways, of at least 2 hours or more. The trains actually do get crowded. Electrifying the Oyster Bay would be cheaper than running diesel trains, and LIRR only has so many dual modes for direct Manhattan service.
Generally with the exception of West Hempstead LIRR electrified lines see relateively frequent service on weekdays (half hourly).
Electric trains seem to accelerate and stop quicker than diesel trains, which would save time and have more sets availible for use.
The Oyster Bay line doesn't have the best route, but I think most people avoid it because it is so friggin slow. I don't think we get above 35mph between Oyster Bay and Mineola. Speeds seem faster for some reason on the Port Jeff branch. People may also avoid the OB because you have to change in Jamaica. Alot of people prefer one seat rides. Obviously until more track space in Manhattan opens, there can be no more additional direct Manhattan trains, and thus the benefits of Oyster Bay electrification would be minimal until access to GCT is built. But service should be more frequent, Oyster Bay trains should run hourly and all night. The ridership is there, and even though commuters may shy away from it, that train can be pretty crowded, especially nights and weekends.
" Not when they could drive to either Port Washington, Syosset, or Mineola. "
When the traffic is bad as it usually is, it takes 20 minutes or more to get from those points from around here. That is not saving much time. Better bus service could encourage those people to use the bus to travel from Glen Cove to Great Neck.
"Sea Cliff isn't Manhattan. Why should the thousands of drivers be inconvenienced for the small comparitively amount of LI Bus riders. "
I'm talking major roads like Northern Blvd here. The bus lanes would be an entirely new lane, cars would not lose any lanes. Give buses a priority and more people will start taking them. Why sit in traffic when you could take a bus speeding down the bus lane, and getting priority at traffic lights (with some kind of system to have green lights for buses).
It's so typical of LI'ers to think the car is king, but I think there's a problem when there's traffic jams everywhere, and terrible air pollution. The Moses system of LI parkways is way over-taxed. And buses can't take parkways due to Moses anti-transit way of thinking.
LI needs to improve it's mass transit system, it is the only way quality of life is going to improve, not just in Northern Nassau county but all across the Island.
A combination of bus lanes, and rail improvements should get people to abandon their cars. It's getting to look alot like Los Angeles around here, and it aint a good thing.
>>>>>>>It's getting to look alot like Los Angeles around here, and it aint a good thing.
LA has created new subway/light rail lines within the past 12 years, and they already have dedicated bus lanes on the Highways there. Plus, many LA bus lines offer 24 hour service. Plus, it's Metro Rapid Limited stop buses (cost = local fare) have special sensors that keep traffic lights green when it's coming. Unlike most areas, LA is actively doing something to improve public transportation.
To compare Long Island with it's limited land mass and it's horrible bus service to LA with it's vast areas and improving transport system is simply not feasible.
LA may be improving, but it still has a long way to go. For most trips, it's pretty much a case of drive or nothing. Sure there are places where transit could get you into "the city"--but then what? The place is so decentralized you can't really do much in one place. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the rail lines don't serve many suburban parts of LA (the Valley, etc.)
Long Island's transit needs help, but the LIRR is still very extensive. Nearly all of Long Island is within a few minutes from some LIRR, and it is without a doubt the best way to get into the city. (It's not very good for getting arround Long Island though.) For local travel, well the Suffolk busses are godwaful. I used to ride the # 35, and there were instances when it did show up more or less on scehdule, but believe me Suffolk Transit is not to be relied upon. The Nassau busses (MTA LI Bus) are somehwat better, and if the county weren't in such dire straits, the system might well be expanding. It does have a large ridership base.
Furthermore, Long Island isn't all sprawl. Many Long Island communities (Huntington, Port Jefferson, Long Beach) maintain downtown areas that would be very transit friendly if there were some transit there.
Unfortunately, the direction towards improving LI's public transit doesn't seem to be the one that's being taken, though there certainly is hope for the East Side Access.
:-) Andrew
You keep on knocking NIMBYS. NIMBY means not in my back yard. As a homeowner, if any type of construction threatens my property values or my family's quality of life I will fight tooth and nail against it. That doesn't make me a bad person.
You have a point, however, these are the same NIMBY's that bought a cheaper house or rented a cheaper house near let's say a rail ROW and then complain when the ROW is used for what it was intended to be used for. Glendale is a great example of this. Residents there complain whenever the the NYA increases freight activity in the yard there, or the LIRR runs extra trains on the Montauk branch.
Another example is the Rockaway Branch. The NIMBYS have blocked many plans to reactivate that line, and it has been successfully blocked by the NIMBYS. Again the ROW was there way before any of the residents were.
If the thought of potential increased service bothers a person, they should look elswhere, away from a ROW when purchasing their homes.
As much as we hate some of his projects and their effects, we all must admit that the current NYC highway system makes a little bit of sense. The roads are all doing their jobs, and make up a vital part of the US highway system. We all prefer rail over highways, but we all know that NYC wouldn't survive without its highways in today's day and age. The city's location also makes highways vital.
Other than the highway's negative effects on the city, the only real problem with the current Moses highways is that they really aren't big enough. Most New Yorkers and myself would agree that we don't want any new highways in our city, and we are glad many projects fell through, but we also have to look at the current system and realize that its covering the bare minimum of the city's needs and demands on it.
The roads are all doing their jobs, and make up a vital part of the US highway system. We all prefer rail over highways, but we all know that NYC wouldn't survive without its highways in today's day and age. The city's location also makes highways vital.
This is true. Even though it destroyed entire neighborhoods, can you imagine NY without the BQE or Cross Bronx Expressway? Or Long Island without the Expressway? SOme of the other lost projects like the Bushwick Expressway may have also been very useful. I may not agree with his philosophy of not expanding public transportation, but I do see how a lot of his projects are very necessary. It is a shame though that we didn't have someone as powerful as Moses looking to build subways and other public transportation.
Although I don't agree with everything Caro states in The Power Broker (I think he had a vendetta against RM) he does show that the Cross Bronx could have been built without destoying any neighborhoods.
Although I don't agree with everything Caro states in The Power Broker (I think he had a vendetta against RM) he does show that the Cross Bronx could have been built without destoying any neighborhoods.
Caro's vendetta shows through when he discusses the Cross-Bronx. The project did not destroy any neighborhoods, contrary to his claims; those 'hoods which deteriorated afterwards were already heading downhill even before any work began.
>>>Or Long Island without the Expressway?
Yes, I can imagine that quite easily. Before the Expressway, there was the privately owned Long Island Motor Parkway. The great thing about private ownership is the taxpayer doesn't foot the bill. It was therefore madness to build the Long Island Expressway, worthy of some Commie place. Pretty damn amazing that it happened in the USA of all places.
I do agree that it's pretty odd that the staunchest supporters of capitalism tend also to be staunch supporters of tax-supported road networks (but not transit networks -- that would be socialism, after all).
That is changing, if ever so slightly, out in the rest of the country, where toll roads are being seen as a more viable option for construction in areas where there's been rapid growth. Interestingly, people those same areas are (surprise!) more receptive to light rail/increased bus funding when given the option between than and a toll road, as compaired to funding mass transit or free highways.
That is changing, if ever so slightly, out in the rest of the country, where toll roads are being seen as a more viable option for construction in areas where there's been rapid growth. Interestingly, people those same areas are (surprise!) more receptive to light rail/increased bus funding when given the option between than and a toll road, as compaired to funding mass transit or free highways.
Southern California has a privately run toll lanes that run more or less in the median of IIRC the Riverside Freeway. They have variable pricing, with rush hour travel substantially more expensive than the off-hours. When the lanes first opened, they were called the "Lexus Lanes," because everyone thought they'd appeal mostly to upscale, Alpha-male, suit-covered-anus types who'd be willing to pay for convenience. As it turns out, most of the lanes' users are plain working stiffs who have to deal with time clocks at work, and pretty much have to pay in order to avoid traffic problems and getting docked for being late.
Same this in Dallas with the Dallas North Tollway (which has been around for over 30 years, but it being extended north) and the new Bush Tollway. Regular people use them (the north end of Dallas has developed it's own business area so even the east-west Bush Tollway gets commuter traffic), but the toll charges do make people stop and at least think not only about using mass transit, but also about the logic of funding new mass transit projects, which is quite a change from in the past.
Yes, and IMO, that's a move in the right direction. Still, it leads to the strange inequity that if the road along my commute happens to charge a toll and the road along your commute doesn't, I have to pay more than you to get to work, even if the roads are practically identical.
Some see that as an argument to abolish toll roads. I see it as an argument to do the opposite: toll everything. The technology exists. There are privacy issues that should, perhaps, be worked out (or perhaps not -- one could argue that anyone who chooses to drive on public roads has forfeited his privacy already). The tolls would simply charge the cost of the construction and maintenance of the road along with charges for noise and air pollution and the like. Nobody would be barred from driving, but it would suddenly become crystal clear that there is an actual cost to driving from point A to point B, and anyone who would rather not pay that cost would be encouraged to find a different way to get from point A to point B or to find a different place to go (which might mean moving and/or changing jobs). Oh, and I almost forgot -- if tolls pay for all roads, there's no longer any need to charge a gas tax or to find money for roads in other sources, like property taxes. So those of us who tend to drive less than average (most here, I presume, given the nature of this board) would probably come out ahead.
Incidentally, although I don't have any numbers to back me up, my intuition is that, if roads were all tolled, public transit systems in reasonably dense cities, and certainly the NYC subway, would be self-sufficient.
Sell all the roads to Microsoft and Enron and any capitalist who will touch them!!! Then put a tax on road tolls...
Or Long Island without the Expressway?
Yes, I can imagine that quite easily. Before the Expressway, there was the privately owned Long Island Motor Parkway. The great thing about private ownership is the taxpayer doesn't foot the bill. It was therefore madness to build the Long Island Expressway, worthy of some Commie place. Pretty damn amazing that it happened in the USA of all places.
Long Island would be crippled without the expressway. Before the Expressway, the only route for trucks was secondary roads with lights like Jericho tpke, or the Sunrise Hwy circa 1960's. Passenger cars could use the Northern or SOuthern Parkways, but trucks can't because of the low bridges.
I do agree that the expressway killed a good part of LIRR freight, and do agree that more should be shipped by rail. However, rail transport is not necessarily the best mode for a lot of shippments, and some are best shipped door to door by truck. In order to do this you need a road like the LIE to handle this. TO say that the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway could have been an alternative to the LIE is absurd. The building of the LIE was hardly madness, even if sometimes it is just one long "parking lot", it is a very necessary road
Long Island would be crippled without the expressway. Before the Expressway, the only route for trucks was secondary roads with lights like Jericho tpke, or the Sunrise Hwy circa 1960's. Passenger cars could use the Northern or SOuthern Parkways, but trucks can't because of the low bridges.
I do agree that the expressway killed a good part of LIRR freight, and do agree that more should be shipped by rail. However, rail transport is not necessarily the best mode for a lot of shippments, and some are best shipped door to door by truck. In order to do this you need a road like the LIE to handle this. TO say that the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway could have been an alternative to the LIE is absurd. The building of the LIE was hardly madness, even if sometimes it is just one long "parking lot", it is a very necessary road.
While there's certainly room for improvement, I don't see that Long Island is going to be a particularly active place for freight rail anytime soon. Much of Nassau's and Suffolk's industrial base produces high-value, high-technology items, in other words not the sort of bulky stuff that's generally suited for rail transport. In addition, Long Island does not have coal-burning power plants or grain elevators. An intermodal yard might work if it weren't for the pesky lack of a Hudson crossing anywhere south of Selkirk.
While there's certainly room for improvement, I don't see that Long Island is going to be a particularly active place for freight rail anytime soon.
Exactly, and that's another reason why the LIE is necessary. Most of the truckloads moved on the LIE would not be conductive to rail freight. A good majority of it is door to door shipments, not shipments from/for industry that is better served by rail.
Rail frieght on LI is important for the inbound traffic: all the stuff Long Islanders buy in stores, plus heating oil, building supplies, etc.
"Vanderbilt Motor Parkway could have been an alternative to the LIE is absurd. The building of the LIE was hardly madness, even if sometimes it is just one long "parking lot", it is a very necessary road"
The VMP was abandoned long before anyone ever thought of building the LIE. VMP was basically a *long* Local Street that was privately owned. It was *supposed* to be a railroad, but Vanderbelt could not get an RR franchise, so he built his road for the new fangled automobile. I don't think he ever made any money on it.
Parts of it are still extant, and are no comparisson to the LIE
Elias
The eastenmost 10 miles or so are alive and well, but no LIE, as Suffolk County Route 67. Decidedly a county road, especially through the Town of Huntington.
:-) Andrew
Does anyone know what road(s) or other features existed in West (Elmhurst, Corona) and Central (Flushing, Fresh Meadows) before the LIE was built? Was there a "Horace Harding Blvd" or something?
I believe Horace Harding Blvd extended from about Queens Blvd to arround the Nassau line, where it became Nassau Road. They might have carried the NY 25D designation.
:-) Andrew
Microsoft's Streets and Trips shows Horace Harding Expressway North and Horace Harding Expressway South as the service roads for the Long Island Expressway.
Who knows... Maybe Bill Gates and Company could even be correct on this, although it should be simple enough for some one to go out there and look a the signs.
Elias
Here are the facts as I understand them:
Originally there was a Horace Harding Boulevard. It was swallowed up by the Long Island Expressway. But in those days, short segments of some of the Moses parkways and expressways had their own names (best known are perhaps the section names of the Belt Parkway: Shore Parkway, Southern Parkway, Laurelton Parkway, and Cross Island Parkway). The section of the LIE that took over Horace Harding Boulevard was alternatively known as the Horace Harding Expressway.
As a rule (often violated, though), a highway's service roads are given the same name as the highway itself, perhaps with a prefix or suffix. See, for instance, the Henry Hudson Parkway in Riverdale.
At some point, NYCDOT came along and posted street signs. Street signs aren't usually terribly useful on high-speed highways, but they went up anyway (there aren't many left -- I don't know if only a few were posted to begin with or if many were knocked down and never replaced). On highways with service roads, street signs are much more useful, so more of them were posted (and they've been better maintained over the years).
But recall that some highways have two names. For whatever reason, NYCDOT usually picked the section name for its street signs. On highways without service roads, that doesn't make much of a difference, since nobody notices those signs anyway. But on highways with service roads, everybody who lives, works, or walks along the service roads sees the signs.
Thus, many New Yorkers think that the service roads to a section of the highway known exclusively as the Long Island Expressway are called exclusively Horace Harding Expressway. In fact, the highway has two names, and the service road shares both of them -- the big green signs that people use to identify highway names give only one name, and the small street name blades that people use to identify city streets give only the other name.
I never understood why a pair of city streets (service roads) in Queens were given an "Expressway" name until I figured this out.
BTW, the Interborough Parkway name appears to still be on NYCDOT's books.
For anyone interested there is a good website that goes into detail on that and all the area roads. It's very interesting, although I forgot how to post a link in a response, so you will have to cut and paste...
www.nycroads.com
short segments of some of the Moses parkways and expressways had their own names (best known are perhaps the section names of the Belt Parkway: Shore Parkway, Southern Parkway, Laurelton Parkway, and Cross Island Parkway).
When did the portion of the Belt in Brooklyn betwen Knapp St and 65th St become known as the Leif Ericsson Drive?
--Mark
I don't know, but that's a ceremonial name, which is an entirely different ball of yarn. It has no business showing up on maps. (I don't see the Anton "Tony" Hulman Memorial Way along I-70 on my Indiana map, after all.)
I wonder how many "Korean War Veterans Memorial Highways/Parkways/Boulevards/Expressways" there would be if they showed all the ceremonial names on maps!
Which reminds me of NY 454, with the official (not ceremonial) name "Veterans Memorial Highway" (actually in Islip and Islandia the street signs read just "Veterans Hwy.") Elsewhere there are lots of roads with that name as a ceremonial designation.
Of course, the Korean War Vets Parkway is an official designation now in Staten Island, with a multiple of the number of sylables the old name had, Richmond Pwarkway. I susupect that SI residents gernerally refer to it as the latter.
:-) Andrew
"(actually in Islip and Islandia the street signs read just "Veterans Hwy.")"
On Long Island, eavh village can name and number its streets anyway it likes. It is not unusual for a road to change its name several times through its route.
And Sunrise Highway! Oh My!
Just you *try* to find a street address witht paying attention to what town you are in!
Elias
I very much dislike the recent practice of changing the actual name of a highway rather than assigning a ceremonial name.
The parkway on Staten Island is still the Richmond Parkway, as far as I'm concerned -- the new name is simply too long. I've also been known to speak of the Jackie Interboro Parkway.
When was the East River Drive renamed the FDR Drive? That's short and to the point.
I very much dislike the recent practice of changing the actual name of a highway rather than assigning a ceremonial name.
I have to agree with you. I really like the historic names to the roads. The Interboro, the Sunrise Hwy, 125th St, etc.
I don't have a problem with name changes if they make sense, like Park Avenue South (or Park Avenue in general), the UWS avenues, York Avenue.
But to have to pronounce Avenue of the Americas all the time, obviously people aren't going to bother.
<>
Yeah, we kinda do, LOL.
The sunrise Highway is the POW/MIA Memorial Highway, but aside from some of the signs, no one refers to it as such.
Sometime in the past few years. A Norweign group (I think it wsa the Leif Ericsson Society) pressured for the name to offset the Italian organizations that got the Cross-Harbor Bridge renamed to the Verranzo-Narrows. The reason: The Leif Ericsson Society had been pushing to get recognition for the noted Viking since evidence suggests that the Nordics visited (aka Discovered) America before Columbus....etc, etc...
I believe that area where Bay Ridge meets Sunset park used to be Brooklyn's Scandinavian neighborhood at one point. There's also a Leif Ericsson park and square between 66th and 67th street in Bay Ridge, and a Norwegian deli on 3rd Ave.
Most of my Norwegian relatives lived in that area up tothe 1970's.
This seems logical enough. Dave, (notice that I DIDN'T call you Mr. Greenberger) in my memory, there were LOTS of those interesection-type signs right on highways themselves back in the 1970s. They were green, just like today, except that back then, the ordinary signs on streets were color-coded by borough.
Some of those signs remain- I think there may still be one on the Gowannus/BQE inbound (I-278 East) near 79th Street in Brooklyn. When I go back to work next week (got myself a nice long weekend), I'll try to remember to look from the X-bus window.
I'd imagine the purpose of these signs was the same as the placard-like signs that are on overpasses today- so that emergency personnel and/or civilians reporting nay kind of trouble can describe the exact location. For example "There's a two-car accident on the SI Expressway at Woolley Avenue", where there is an overpass, but no exit.
Here's one of my favorites:
My absolute favorite is at the "corner" of the FDR Drive and the Triboro Bridge. Unfortunately, I never find myself in the left lane when I'm stuck in traffic there, and it's impossible to walk to it (I've tried), so I don't have a picture. Yet.
Humph, You want meaningless signs?
Out here we have a street grid (has to do with the 911 system) and so in this dirt road out of the Teddy Roosevelt National Park, you have every mile a street sign telling what street would be here if there were streets here in the first place.
I guess it *would* help an ambulance or a fire truck find you if you called on your cell phone, but there sure are no dwellings or buildings of any sort for 30 miles in any direction.
No NIMBYs either.
Elias
Where is that? North Dakota? (Isn't that where T. Rooseevelt National Park is?)
:-) Andrew
Yup, that's the place.
There used to be litle one room schoolhouses out here.
They are not schools anymore, but are mini bus depots.
Several small buses will dump thier kids off here, and then a bigger bus will pick them up and take them to the city for classes.
Total commute time can be as much as two hours each way.
Oh yeah... It also SNOWS out here!
Elias
I thought so. Anyway, streetsigns in the middle of nowhere seem to be a common thing out west. I know Tuscon, AZ extends into the desert, with street signs pointing to streets that aren't there. I've seen it in Utah too; miles and miles away from Salt Lake City there are signs with ridiculously high numbers in their street system, eg. "10,000 east".
:-) Andrew
"I've seen it in Utah too; miles and miles away from Salt Lake City there are signs with ridiculously high numbers in their street system, eg. "10,000 east". "
North dakota...
Arizona..
Utah...
I smell a FEDERAL RAT behind all of this.......
Oh Yeah... That's right... they all wanted FedBucks for their 911 systems.
Hey, if that's all it takes to get FedBucks, then lets hang more street signs... heck we got LOTSA desert!
Elias
It's the same thing in northern Los Angeles County -- the street grid runs out into the desert along Pearblossom Highway (Cal. 138) where you have nothing but street signs leading out into dirt roads that have only Joshua trees on either side.
Maricopa County (Phoenix) is Arizona is also pretty funny in terms of gradiose future plans -- before you get to the county line as you head towards California, you get to the "477th Ave." exit, which is also a pretty long ways off (like about 30 miles) from the nearest current development.
Sounds almost as desolate as Arverne/Edgemere.
Yes, that's the A train two blocks down!
lol...yeah some of these areas have gone back to "farmland"! It's become more built up now, but I rememberriding along the J in the mid 80's, somewhere between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway, there was a small little "farmhouse" sorrounded by burnt out and abandoned tenaments. A few years later they removed the abandoned buildings and there was this little farmhouse sitting there all by itself once again, with the weeds waving in the wind. It had gone full circle. It really was a farmhouse from when the land was farmland in the 1800's, then the tenaments were built, I guess in the early 1900's, years later removed, and now I believe they built one and two family homes around it....so the cycle begins again!
Sounds almost as desolate as Arverne/Edgemere
Urban renewal at its finest!!
Well, while NYC obviously has less open space than Utah or North Dakota, we still have some phantom intersections marked with signs.
Actually, I get the feeling that NYCDOT isn't putting up phantom signs anymore, but sure put up a lot of them in 1964 or so, when the "blade" type street signs (color coded by boro) first appeared. They saw fit to mark EVERY mapped intersection, probably with the idea that they'd be opened soon enough. For example:
Even as a small child, I knew that there was a signed intersection of Colden Street and Kissena Blvd, though there was nothing but weeds there. Having been out here in the Isle of Staten since 1979, I've spotted some here, too particularly along Amboy Road in Great Kills and Annadale- though the signs are/were of the black lettering on yellow background, as was used in SI and Manhattan.
If anyone's interested, I think there are still signs along Amboy Road, at non-existen interections with Holly Ave. and Colon Ave.
The unused part of the Richmond Parkway also have some fixtures that never got much use- the ramp from the parkway to I-278 West still has an intact lamp of the mercury vapor type and the ramp to 278 East has a similar lamp, with the diffuser missing- probably neither was ever lit. In Eltingville, on the part of Parkway just BEFORE traffic can enter, there's one of the big green signs advising of exits for Arden and Albee Avenues. Probably no one's ever been guided by that sign.
Yeah actually was out that way today, though a bit west in Rockaway Park. I was lucky again to get an R38 A train on this trip to the Rockaways, though the shuttle was the usual R44.
And about roads, Rockaway beach Blvd is a very nice one, tree lined and those old wooden LIPA subtransmission poles. Walked it from B116 to B149, with that lovely breeze I could walk for miles.
Also had my camera with me and got some shots from the R38 front window of Howard Beach and the flats. If you want to see the pictures they will be posted to my "place" soon at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/railsandtrains
I agree. Particularly, the Belt Parkway being such a vital link between the eastern and western sections of Long Island should have been built with four lanes in each direction instead of the current three.
Also the I-878 project should have been built (aka Cross-Brooklyn Expressway).
To the uninitiated: the proposed 878 route would have paralleled or ran above the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch from the Verranzano Bridge all the way to East New York where I believe it would have been merged into either the Interboro Parkway (Jackie Robinson Expwy) or the Conduit near Linden Blvd.
Doug
"the Belt Parkway being such a vital link between the eastern and western sections of Long Island should have been built with four lanes in each direction instead of the current three."
Ah Hem....
I do believe that it was built with TWO lanes in each direction, and then later was widened to three. Such was, I believe the way with all of the RM parkways. So even he had not allowed for the exponential growth of the burbs or King Car!
Elias
Another good project would be two bridges across the Long Island Sound: Rye-Oyster Bay (I-287) and Shoreham-New Haven (I-91).
The sortta tried that, but by then NIMBYs had moved to the area.
Elias
That's because you don't live on Long Island. I could just imagine how bad traffic would be with all the trucks that are normally on I-95 and the Cross Bronx now on the LIE.
Last I looked, I did.
Currently, Long Island is a dead end, people who live in Nassau and Suffolk Counties have to go west through New York City to go anywhere, or pay for those ridiculously expensive ferries.
In any case, going through Long Island would be an expensive detour for most traffic, they would have to enter and exit the island, paying toll on both occassions, and travel a longer distance to do so. There would be a disincentive for interstate traffic to create congestion on the LIE equivalent to that of I-95 because I-95 is a shorter cheaper route, if congestion is not factored in. Therefore if the Long Island Expressway was as congested as I-95, nobody would want to take the LIE route.
["Last I looked, I did."]
OK, you're right, I should have said Nassau or Suffolk instead of Long Island.
But seriously, I can't see how having two (or one) bridges from the mainland to Long Island wouldn't greatly increase traffic on LI. True, trucks to Eastern LI wouldn't have to go through Queens and Nassau, but I think there would be alot of truck traffic to/from the BQE-Verrazano route that would love to have a way to avoid the Bronx. Also, alot of the GW Bridge traffic now would go through the BQE-Verrazano to Joisey.
By the way, as someone who goes to Branford an awful lot, I would love to take the Seaford-Oyster Bay Expwy (135) north to Rye. Also Rye playland would be alot closer to me in Nassau. But in the long run, I'm still afraid of the traffic it would bring.
P.S. One of Moses' plans that never came to pass but should've was extending Ocean Pkway on both ends (Jones Beach & Captree) so that it went from the Rockaways to the Hamptons. That was his original plans when building Ocean Pkway. I doubt the Nimbys in Atlantic Beach, Long Beach, Lido, and Fire Island would let it happen now and I can't say I blame them, but wouldn't that be a nice alternative to the Southern St, Northern St, Sunrise Hway or the LIE?
But seriously, I can't see how having two (or one) bridges from the mainland to Long Island wouldn't greatly increase traffic on LI.
It certainly would, it just probably wouldn't reach the levels of I-95.
True, trucks to Eastern LI wouldn't have to go through Queens and Nassau
This would reduce traffic as some vehicles now have shorter trips.
but I think there would be alot of truck traffic to/from the BQE-Verrazano route that would love to have a way to avoid the Bronx. Also, alot of the GW Bridge traffic now would go through the BQE-Verrazano to Joisey.
I'm not sure, but I think the orientation of the Rye-Oyster Bay Bridge would make it a poor alternative for going through the Bronx from Brooklyn, Queens or Staten Island.
By the way, as someone who goes to Branford an awful lot, I would love to take the Seaford-Oyster Bay Expwy (135) north to Rye. Also Rye playland would be alot closer to me in Nassau. But in the long run, I'm still afraid of the traffic it would bring.
The increased traffic would bring with it added development and would increase the tax base.
I personally think that eminent domain shouldn't just compensate the people whose houses have to be torn down, but also those whose property values go down because they're suddenly in a less comfortable area.
Just thought I'd voice my support for both of those LI Sound Crossings, if it is ever possible to build them. I would prioritize the Oyster Bay-Rye crossing, and perhaps make it a tunnel to help reduce NIMBY concerns.
:-) Andrew
The are proposals for tunnels for both the Oyster Bay <-> Rye (NY 135 / I 287) & Shoreham <-> New Haven CT Sound Crossings. (SC 46 / I 91) (See NYCROADS.COM). The Tunnels Would Carry 3 Lanes Of Auto Traffic Each Way & Have 4 Rail Tracks (The Tracks Would Connect The MN, LILL & AMTrak).
Yeah I wish them luck in trying to build the Oyster Bay-Rye bridge, because the area is NIMBY'ville, nothing short of dictatorial power will work here.
"and perhaps make it a tunnel to help reduce NIMBY concerns."
HEY! Watch out for the FISH! they have concerns too, you big bully!
To the uninitiated: the proposed 878 route would have paralleled or ran above the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch from the Verranzano Bridge all the way to East New York where I believe it would have been merged into either the Interboro Parkway (Jackie Robinson Expwy) or the Conduit near Linden Blvd.
It would be nice if the Interboro (oh sorry the JR Parkway) didn't just "end" in the middle of nowhere. It would have been nice if it at least connected with the Belt. It would give an alternative fir getting to Eastern Long Island. YOu could go north or south on it depending on wheather you wanted to wind up on the Norhtern or Southern States. Currently if I want to avoid the LIE and start on the JR parkway, and want to go to the South shore, I have to take it to the Northern, and then travel south at some point to get to the SOuthern. It would have been nice ti be able to take the JR south to the Belt right at the beginning.
The original proposal was I-695, it would run from 65th Street at the Gowanus (the Gowanus would be 12 lanes from there to the V-N Bridge), then out to the end of the Interborough where it would meet the Buswhick Expressway/I-78 which would run from the Williamsburg Bridge to the Nassau Expressway at the airport.
Eventually the Bushwick fell out of favor to the city, so the project became I-878 and was rerouted to go straight to the airport and connect to the Nassau.
I-695 would have continued as the Queens Interborough Expressway and ended at the LIE/BQE interchange. When the CBkE plan was rerouted, the QIE plan was down to the Belt in Starrett City running along Van Sinderen Avenue (the L would be demolished and placed in the median).
The Cross-Brooklyn was killed with the rest of I-78 through NYC by Governor Rockefeller in 1971. The plans for the QIE were still active for a few years more.
Every time I ride the Canarsie line, I notice the Atlantic Avenue viaduct, which runs a half-mile from approximately Eastern Parkway Extension to Pennsylvania Avenue. At first glance it resembles a prewar limited-access parkway- two lines each way, decorative brick railing. LIRR's Atlantic Branch 1940 was put in a tunnel most of the way from Flatbush Terminal to Jamaica in 1940. East New York station, however, is at street level and partially visible under the viaduct.
This whole set-up may have provided for two things:
-To accomodate the tunneling of the perpendicular LIRR Bay Ridge branch.
-To accomodate a projected expressway ROW and/or interchange. Steve Anderson's excellent site lists several possible paths for unbuilt expressways through the heart of Brooklyn. Two of them would meet in a large interchange around Broadway Junction and tie in with, or absorb, the Interboro- er, Jackie Robinson.
-When Atlantic Avenue was redesigned in 1940 in conjunction with the LIRR tunneling, future conversion to limited access may have been kept in mind. Similarly, East New York Avenue, which leads right to the Interboro's terminus, goes through a long tunnel under the viaduct and both LIRR ROWs.
About a mile east, there's a partial interchange where Conduit Boulevard peels southeast off Atlantic. Conduit was also designed as part of an expressway- witness the huge medians to accomodate lanes. There's another partial interchange with Linden Boulevard and what looks like a potential cloverleaf at Cross Bay Boulevard.
If any of these highways had come to fruition, maybe the Belt and BQE wouldn't be so darned crowded on summer weekends.
Of course, if Moses didn't get his way when the Van Wyck was designed, we wouldn't see that concrete structure being built above it today. I can just imagine the typical business traveler or luggage-laden family having just landed at JFK and headed for Manhattan saying "Oh, good, there's the monorail that'll take us to the subway- we don't need a cab!"
Funny thing is, the city ultimately ended up with not enough subways OR highways. The result is BOTH are overcrowded and inadequate.
If Robert Moses was anti-highway and pro-transit, then we just never would have heard of him, instead we would have heard of a Rodney Abraham, a Reginald Isaac or a Ralph Jacobs who ruined the city with his pro-highways anti-transit.
The fact is that Robert Moses was just the man of his times, and other cities have gone in the same direction as New York did.
Maybe if there was no Power Broker, we'd have median-strip rail, and MORE highways (No Moses to piss everybody off), but there would still be no Second System or Second Avenue subway.
>>>>So if Robert Moses didn't exist what do you think the city would look like today?? <<<
I don't think subways and transit would have had any considerable advantage over autos even if Robert Moses had not come along. There would have been someone in power who followed the conventions of the time, which dictated that suburbia was the wave of the future, and so King Car would still have been paramount.
Remember, political power has never rested with transit users. There are organizations like Transportation Alternatives and Straphangers, which have scored some victories over the years, but you know what? They're on the fringe...not in power.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not for nothing, but the one thing that I gotta give Moses credit for is building of 'open spaces' in the city (meaning public parks). I think as Kevin Walsh pointed out in an earlier post that public transit would be about the same today since the mind-set of most planners in the Moses era was centered around the car and suburban expansion.
However, had there not been a Robert Moses, I think -- for good or ill -- there would have been less housing projects and public parks (aka playgrounds) as he was a big proponent of both.
[Espcially the Cross Bronx Expressway, which did Robert Moses in. (He was a fool for doing that].
Two points I have with this statement: (1) why was Moses a fool for building the Cross-Bronx Expressway? It was a excellent short-cut to get to the George Washington Bridge (among other things). The bad thing about it was the way in which Moses treated people who lived along the proposed route. If anything it showed what a bastard he could be. Not a man to be triffled with, obviously. (2) The building of the Cross Bronx Expressway was not what did Moses in. It was the Clearview Expressway that was his 'last hurrah'. The neighborhood of Douglaston (if I'm correct) put a stop to that route and the Clearview (after the Whitestone Bridge) remains to this day as basically a 'road to nowhere'...
Actually Doug, the Clearview can be a useful alternative to the oft crowded Cross Island as a way to get from the Throggs Neck to the LIE and Grand Central Pkwy. Also, commercial traffic cannot use the Cross Island.
[Ok, if Robert Moses didnt exist we would defintly have a highway system quite differently from the one that we have today. Espcially the Cross Bronx Expressway, which did Robert Moses in.]
The Cross-Bronx may have done him in politically, but he probably still made out like a bandit. Think about it: He purposely routed the Cross-Bronx to MAXIMIZE the number of displaced households, and NONE of those households ever got their relocation funds. Hmmm, where did all that money go?!?!
"and NONE of those households ever got their relocation funds. Hmmm, where did all that money go?!?!"
The Tenants were displaced, but they had no investment in the buildings. The Buildings were property of the landlords, who likely enough pocketed the money and (seeing that the rent control environment was a bad thing) went elsewhere.
End of Story.
Elias
In those days, there was probably was not a federal relocation entitlement for tenants. This has now changed quite a lot, probably in response to the terrible abuses of the previous era. By the way, Moses has never been seriously accused of personal corruption (not even by Robert Caro, who would certainly have made such allegations in his book if there was any basis for it.)
Imagine Moses forced to be a subway conductor in Hell? "Next stop, Hitler's eternal prison. This is the train to Jimmy Hoffa's molten pit. Stand clear of the closing doors please."
For one thing, if Moses didn't exist, the Verrazano Narrows bridge wouldn't exist, and New York traffic would be a horrid nightmare like the ones you hear about in Sao Paulo where jams are up to 50 km long!
...But I digress on that matter.
Back to the point: Yes, I think Queens would be different. Queens, in anyway you slice the cake, only has ONE trunk line on Queens Boulevard. And with all this talk of placing the Q on that line, it's a wonder that they don't have digital signs on the QB line platforms that flash: "Next Train: E - 8th Ave Local to World Trade Center/Chambers Street" or something like that every time a train arrives.
...Please tell me they DO have those kinda signs in those stations.
But with thde Second System, I think Queens would get a lotta relief with some new lines. Other places, extensions would get lots of cars off the road, but I doubt new lines are very likely. Manhattan, Bronx and Brooklyn are awfully well served (by many standards), and I think the subway MAY have lines to Staten Island. I don't know.
All those permutations, so little time. So many possibilities, destroyed by one dorkhead. Now everyone, please repeat after me at the top of your lungs:
"DAMN YOU, ROBERT MOSES!"
Everyone feel better? Good.
-J!
Well I have been doing more and more studying of NYC vs. other cities in the world. New York City is a very big corporate headquarters, but it literally sucks when it comes to the industrial areas. We also lost our ports to New Jersey. Cities like Tokyo, Hong Kong, Beijing London, and other have a good balance of both.
So for NYC to compete at a strong pace internationally against other major cities (Which I must say are still growing) We need to bring back the industries to NYC, rebuild the port areas, we do our highway system, and correct errors that Robert Moses made with his highway craze, and then expand the subway system to its point. Then we can compete full blast with the World.
When 9/11 occurred and we started loosing business after business, and the economy got weaker, it was a clear sign that New York relied to heavily on corporations. If we build more industries too, then it acts as sort of a shock absorber since now we have 2 strong areas to rely on instead on 1. With better transportation, and ports. It mixes the Old Port City of New York with the New Corporate New York City. Which in turns marks the vision of all New Yorkers, which will make sure that NYC stays as the capital of the world.
New York City and New York State JUST DON'T GET IT ... while there's "you can't touch me, nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah" benefits to being a New York Corporation, there's some serious downsides that the morons who govern just don't GET ...
It was a different reality when New York, like Chicago was a TRANSPORTATION HUB and any company that wanted to make money and ship product HAD to be in one or another "hub" ... nowadays, the reality is electronics communication ... a company could INCORPORATE in New York to take advantage of the laissez fairy but could actually set up shop in FIJI as long as there were telecoms ... anybody heard of "Bermuda corporations?"
Lemme give you an example - I'm a *PROUD* New Yorker, but I couldn't IMAGINE having our business in NYC where our already thin profit margins are pressed to the max paying UPSTATE taxes. If we had to pay NYC taxes on top of that, I'd be on welfare.
"We also lost our ports to New Jersey."
Northern New Jersey is an integral part of the NY metro area. Yes, it might have been better to keep port activity going in Brooklyn and maybe even Manhattan, but having the port facilities in NJ in no way reduces the ability of the metro area as a whole to compete.
What we do need is an infrastructure that treats the area as a whole: cross-harbor freight tunnel, sufficient passenger rail capacity from NJ, LIRR to GCT, as well as improvements like the 2nd Ave subway that are purely NYC (or even Manhattan) oriented.
Big shipping ports in Manhattan are a thing of the past and will never come back: There is no way to get big ship-loads of goods to those piers.
The PORT OF NEW YORK is on the New Jersey side of the river too, and *that* is where the railroads can get access to the ships.
Yes, there shouod be more ports in Brooklyn, but you need better freight service there too. Brookly is the only place on Long Island where big ships can load, and that needs to serve all of Long Island, and NY, upstate almost to Albany, and parts of CT too. Needs better freight rail connections.
Cargo to other parts of NE will come in at Boston.
Mosesmobiles was a BAD idea!
Elias
Speaking of cargo transport, it's too bad some underground subway couldn't have been built to transport goods to/from businesses in Manhattan. I heard that there was something like this called the Chicago tunnel company but it was abandoned.
There are way too many trucks on the road, freight trains are way better than all this long distance truck haul.
the political border down the middle of he Hudson is as obsolete as the one between Queens and Brooklyn. The industrial jobs did not move to Jersey, they went to Malaysia or the PRC et al. I certainly agree that more transit infrastructure needs to be built, but it is precisely to facillitate the spread of offices throughout the Mero area. as most wage earners can no longer afford the rents near their 'desk farms'. Recent data out here in the SF Bay Area still shows telecommuting to be very weak, so for most paper shuffling jobs, showing up at the office to be seen by the higher ups requires transport.
New York relies on service industries nowadays, not heavy industry. In reality, service industries are more reliable in that they don't go away unless the population goes away. The cost of living in New York City is astronomical, and wages for factory work in New York would have to be astronomical as well. This has a hard-hitting impact on industry, which wouldn't wanna move to NYC. Industry flourishes in areas where the cost of living is low....because that means they have to pay smaller wages. It just isn't profitable to have heavy industry in a place like modern-day New York.
The following is an installment from www.trains.com NewsWire. (Check this site for railroad news across North America)
1. Amtrak and Pennsylvania plan upgrade of Keystone Corridor
Amtrak and the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation will jointly fund a $140 million upgrade of the Philadelphia-Harrisburg Keystone Corridor that may include restoration of all-electric service, the National Association of Railroad Passengers reported.
An announcement of the five-year capital plan for the route is slated for June 11 in Harrisburg. The goal of the project is to reduce transit time from two hours to 90 minutes between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. This would be accomplished by restoring faster, all-electric service and lengthening the amount of 110-mph running.
2. Deadlines set for ongoing Downeaster speed case
The Surface Transportation Board has set deadlines for the next chapter in the ongoing saga of Downeaster train speeds.
Amtrak last month asked the STB to force Guilford Rail System to allow the Boston-Portland, Maine, Downeaster to operate at 79 mph. Test of the rail on the rebuilt line from Portland to Plaistow, N.H., showed that the route can safely support 79-mph operation, Amtrak contends.
Guilford, which has opposed 79-mph operation, contends that the current 59 mph is the maximum safe speed owing to track conditions and the number of grade crossings on the line.
Guilford must reply to the STB by June 10. Amtrak has 10 days to rebut Guilford¡¯s filing. The STB also asked the Federal Railroad Administration to participate in the case.
The Downeaster service uses Guilford¡¯s former Boston & Maine route. The faster speeds would cut transit time by about 15 minutes, which the train¡¯s backers say is essential for it to compete more effectively with parallel Interstate 95.
3. Amtrak offers Acela Express riders bonus Guest Rewards points
Amtrak is offering Guest Rewards members 10,000 points for every three Acela Express round trips taken on the Northeast Corridor, as a counter to similar frequent flyer incentives offered on the competing air shuttle services.
Through June 30, Acela Express passengers who belong to the Amtrak frequent rider program can earn 10,000 points for an Acela Express round trip between Washington and New York, New York and Boston, or Washington and Boston. First-class passengers earn 15,000 bonus points.
For more information, see www.amtrak.com.
Through June 30, Acela Express passengers who belong to the Amtrak frequent rider program can earn 10,000 points for an Acela Express round trip between Washington and New York, New York and Boston, or Washington and Boston.
This is insane. They could convert these things into Continental Air Miles, costing Amtrak $200 a shot. ($300 for First Class pax). Amtrak has just foregone any profit they might make on the Acela for anyone who chooses to do that.
That said, if people *don't* do that, then Amtrak will retain its market share...
Alicia
1. Amtrak and Pennsylvania plan upgrade of Keystone Corridor
Amtrak and the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation will jointly fund a $140 million upgrade of the Philadelphia-Harrisburg Keystone Corridor that may include restoration of all-electric service, the National Association of Railroad Passengers reported.
An announcement of the five-year capital plan for the route is slated for June 11 in Harrisburg. The goal of the project is to reduce transit time from two hours to 90 minutes between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. This would be accomplished by restoring faster, all-electric service and lengthening the amount of 110-mph running.
Don't hold your breath. This has been promised for the last few years.
They plan to start running AEM-7's by the end of this year. Crews are already getting trained.
The Keystone Corridor route is very curvy, not to mention a good portion of it see SEPTA commuter trains, even a few freights, so I would like to know how much 110 mph running will be possible. A train, like the Acela, that can tilt would maybe make that somewhat possible. A train with AEM-7s or HHP-8s I am not too sure about.
Acela's too heavy to allow higher speeds with tilt anyway. IIRC, the X-2000 was cleared by the FRA for faster speeds on curves than the Acela is, because of this.
Contrary to popular belief, there are only a few sections on the PRR corridor which were not suited to 90mph operation. I've ridden F40s "bricks" down there at >79mph (not sure it is entirely legal). There's one curve at Elizabethtown that's 55mph and the rest of the alignment are pretty good. Removal of the 4-track and pairing it down to 2 will give even more room for realignment. 110mph really isn't far off in that corridor, physically speaking, with AEM-7 sets.
What they need is some $$. The geography is in their favour.
Acela is a waste of resources on that line. Acela would do much better if they electrified the old B&O to Pittsburgh.
AEM7
The following is an installment of www.trains.com NewsWire, May 15, 2002. (Check here for railroading news across North America)
1. Grade crossing collision derails Meteor, snarls Southeast service
Amtrak service in the Southeast was returning to normal today after the southbound Silver Meteor collided with a log truck on a grade crossing in South Carolina yesterday.
The Meteor’s entire consist ?P40 No. 50, nine passenger cars, and one baggage car ?derailed but remained upright and in line after the 9:03 a.m. collision in Coosawhatchie, S.C., about 35 miles north of Savannah, Ga.
The New York-Miami train was carrying 103 passengers and 13 crew members, Amtrak said. Nine passengers and two crew members were treated at area hospitals for minor injuries.
With the possible exceptions of the locomotive and baggage car, the damage to the Amtrak equipment is not likely sufficient enough to add it to the dead line at the Beech Grove shop complex in Indiana. That’s good news for Amtrak, which barely has enough equipment to keep its national system running since last month’s Auto Train wreck in Florida.
The truck driver, Eric McKinney, 41, of Pembroke, S.C., was not injured. He blamed the Amtrak engineer for not blowing the horn in time for him to get his rig out of the way.
"That's the reason (the engineer) hit me," he told the Carolina Morning News. "That's the reason he needs to learn how to start blowing his horn. Regular (freight) trains that come through here blow their horns three or four times when they come through the woods."
The South Carolina Highway Patrol didn’t share McKinney’s view. They charged him with failing to yield right-of-way to a train, and said that visibility at the crossing was good and should have allowed McKinney enough time to see the train approaching.
CSX reopened its Charleston Subdivision main at 4:20 a.m. today. But the collision disrupted Amtrak service between Florida and the Northeast. Amtrak provided the following rundown of how service was affected:
Train 90, The Palmetto, which departed Miami Monday en route to New
York, terminated in Savannah, with passengers bused to all points north. Passengers who planned to board the train at stations north of Selma, N.C., instead rode train 80, the Carolinian, to points northward to New York.
Train 89, The Palmetto, which departed New York Tuesday morning en route to Miami via Tampa, terminated in Charleston, S.C. Passengers were bused to Savannah, where they boarded equipment from terminated train 90 and proceeded south to Miami.
Train 90, The Palmetto, that departed Miami on Tuesday, is running normally.
Train 98, the Silver Meteor, which left Miami Tuesday morning en route to New York, terminated at Jacksonville, Fla. Passengers were bused from there to Charleston, where they boarded New York-bound equipment from the terminated train 89. At Jacksonville, both sleeping cars from train 98(14) were put on northbound train 92(14), The Silver Star, which operated on its normal route via Columbia, S.C., and Raleigh, N.C., to New York.
Trains 52 and 53, the Auto Train, which operates between Lorton, Va., and Sanford, Fla., detoured on CSX’s S-Line via Raleigh and Columbia, which takes about four hours longer.
The only train originating today that remains affected is the southbound Palmetto, which was cancelled so Amtrak could balance equipment. No alternate transportation was provided, although Amtrak said it would try to accommodate passengers on other trains.
CSX, meanwhile, rerouted three intermodal trains and the Tropicana juice train over its parallel S-Line, spokesman Dan Murphy said.
2. Providence & Worcester U-boat rides to Amtrak’s rescue
When Amtrak HHP-8 No. 658 failed while leading train 171 near Westbrook, Conn., on Monday, the nearest rescue locomotives were on a Providence & Worcester local freight.
Amtrak quickly commandeered P&W U23B No. 2207, which pulled the disabled motor and its Acela Regional train 29 miles west to New Haven, Conn. The 25-year-old 2207, one of the few General Electric Universal (“U?-Line diesels remaining in main-line service, began life as Conrail 2796 in 1977, and was one of the last U-Boats built during the transition to GE’s Dash 7 locomotive series.
After arriving in New Haven with its characteristic loud chugging and plumes of black smoke, 2207 spotted the dead HHP-8 in Amtrak’s Motor Storage, while a 21-year-old AEM7 motor quickly tied on to train 171 to convey it west. This may be one of the classic GE’s final moments of glory, as P&W is phasing out most of its second-hand U23Bs with recently acquired ex-LMX B39-8s.
3. Amtrak, city officials, dedicate new station in Provo, Utah
Officials today dedicated the new Amtrak station in Provo, Utah, which replaces a small dingy shelter that California Zephyr passengers had to use.
The new station features benches, automatic heating systems, a concrete platform, pay phones, information displays, landscaping, and a paved parking area.
"We felt it was critical that Provo have a nice, well-maintained facility to greet rail passengers," Provo Mayor Lewis K. Billings said. "This new station will provide train travelers with good shelter from the weather and a sense of place when they enter or leave Provo via Amtrak.?lt;P>Amtrak Intercity’s government affairs director, Ray Lay, said the station is a “new front door to Amtrak’s intercity rail service."
4. SEPTA honored for station renovation project
The renovation of SEPTA’s station in Strafford, Pa., was honored today with a 2002 Outstanding Preservation Project Award from the Preservation Alliance for Greater Philadelphia.
The award recognizes the efforts of SEPTA and DPK&A Architects to restore and preserve the circa-1880 Strafford station, a former Pennsylvania Railroad structure.
The station, served by SEPTA’s R5 Paoli/Thorndale trains on Amtrak’s Philadelphia-Harrisburg Line, is an example of Victorian stick architecture.
The Preservation Alliance considers the work at Strafford Station an outstanding restoration and rehabilitation project of a historic railroad structure. Through the years the station has endured severe acts of nature, relocation from neighboring Wayne, and a damaging fire in June 1999.
"The restoration work at Strafford Station was done with such quality that it retained the historic fabric of the building," said Randy Cotton, assistant director of the Preservation Alliance. "We were impressed with SEPTA's commitment to finish the restoration project even after the fire. This project is another in a chain of successful restoration projects by SEPTA. It's good to see an agency committed to preserving history."
This news is all stuff that people can find about on their own, if so desired, I don't think posting it all here is a wise use of our hosts bandwidth. Post a link if you want.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, I happen to find these posts quite useful. I don't have time to read all the railfan sites.
Alciia
Delta Express Shuttles operating from Boston to New York had experienced a 20% ridership decrease recently. Delta tries to increase it by giving its customers triple miles, a convenient baggage check-in system (I forgot what it was exactly), and Delta's willingness to "get another plane for you if one is full."
Delta's 70-minute flight from Boston to New York has been decreasing in popularity, as Delta thinks the 20% loss went to AMTRAK, particularly the high-speed Acela Express, where Delta has been targeting at.
I heard on a commercial a month ago on the radio which really put down AMTRAK's AE service, where a narrator compares two riders, one (A) on a Delta Express Shuttle, and one (B) on an Acela. Rider (A) has the convenience of checking in and boarding right away, and is off to New York and arrives 70 minutes later on time. While Rider (B) has still 1 hr. and 30 minutes looking in front of them at someone's funny shaped head."
I don't know about the conditions now, but wasn't AMTRAK's Acela Express designed to be competitive with airline shuttles? Delta has finally come to realize that and is willing to do almost anything to get its customers back.
Delta has a funny idea of how much fun getting to and checking into a major airport it. And they seem to have forgotten about the hour it takes to get from LAG to midtown by Mosesmobiles!
Now if you were flying from Dickinson NORTH DAKOTA it would be a different story.
Sure, the travel agent tells you to be at the airport two hours early, but 100 minutes of that is waiting outside the LOCKED DOOR until the airport personel arrive to open the airport. Few minutes later the plane lands, and the pilot will help you with your bags.
TRY THAT IN LAGUARDIA! PHFTftftftftttttt.......
Sure, the travel agent tells you to be at the airport two hours early, but 100 minutes of that is waiting outside the LOCKED DOOR until the airport personel arrive to open the airport. Few minutes later the plane lands, and the pilot will help you with your bags.
But usually, (unless for connecting flights), vacationers don't usually have tickets for the Shuttle and businessmen who have a meeting in NY might bring a suitcase and one other bag at the most, so they don't need to be at the airport 2 hours early.
I know security now takes longer, but not a huge difference on the wait time.
4 hours leaving Newark for Atlanta, the entinre time spent waiting on the security line. Got through security 25 minutes prior to departure time, and the plane was held for another 45 minutes.
-Hank
And I'll bet you the pilot didn't even help you with your bags!
What is this world coming to!
I'll bet if you got on a train, and needed some help with your bag, the conductor would hav been happy to help you.
Fly AMTK!
Yes, the conductor would be happy to help, but would the engineer be?
NAhh heys in the loco.
4 hours leaving Newark for Atlanta, the entinre time spent waiting on the security line. Got through security 25 minutes prior to departure time, and the plane was held for another 45 minutes.
But they tell you to arrive at the airport 2 hours prior to departure, as supposed to the usual 1 hour for domestic flights because of security. Does it really take 4 hours? And if it sometimes does, I'm sure it's not for all flights.
For the Delta Shuttle, they are currently guaranteeing 20 minutes from check-in counter to gate, or they give you 20,000 miles. In my experience, since the shuttles have their own counter and gate areas, waits at security are rarely significant. Weather delays and airport congestion are much bigger factors for the shuttles than security checkpoints.
For what it's worth, I've taken 6 flights since 9/11 originating in the U.S., and the longest time I had from the very end of the check-in line to the gate area was 45 minutes. That was leaving from EWR during the height of the Christmas travel season. Security wasn't even the bottleneck that time, it was the line at the check-in counter-- everyone showed up hours early for their flight, causing overcrowding in the terminal.
" I know security now takes longer, but not a huge difference on the wait time. "
??????
That was true before the holidays, when after security there were no line at all to speak of. I don't find it to be true now.
In March, I spent 90 minutes waiting OUTSIDE McCarran in Vegas, 90 minutes waiting INSIDE, and THEN wait some more in the security line, and my flight was delayed due to weather.
history: When Eastern (eaten by Delta) first started the DC-NY shuttles, you paid on board and they made great hoopla about rolling another plane for one passenger-n reservations)
It was only in the darkst days of PRR/PC incompetence that the trains ever booked fewer riders than the planes on that segment. The major victory of AE other than a facelift on what is already the densest rail usage west of Europe, is precisely capturing the New England leg of the market. The twisting back country route of the New Haven was always slow. compared to the PRR racetrack.
I am pleased Delta is hurting. As to time.convenience, with laptops and cellphones for the busy business geek, the market willing to pay AE fares, the train can be a comfortable rolling office with an attached coffee shop. (and it is a TRAIN!)
Here's how the chronology went. There were (and are) two shuttle operations between NYC and BOS and NYC and DCA.
When Eastern went bankrupt, the assets of the Shuttle were puchased by Donald Trump, and it became the Trump Shuttle. Trump then sold the business to a consortium of banks, known as "Shuttle, Inc." Shuttle, Inc. hired USAir to manage the operations, and even though it was known as "The USAir Shuttle," it was only a marketing name. But after a while, USAir (which became USAirways) bought the operation from Shuttle, Inc. -- and that's how it remains now. [I worked for Trump/Shuttle, Inc./USAirways for eight years as their consulting meteorologist.]
The other operation was New York Air (Apple), when they went kaput and sold its shuttle operation to Pan Am. When Pan Am went kaplow, Delta took over the reigns -- and continues to this day.
BACK ON TOPIC.
A few weeks ago, I had a scheduled one-day round-trip from Boston to NYC via Acela Express (south on the 6:15am, north on the 5:00pm). During the morning, Boston's Logan Airport was fogged in, and there were NO FLIGHTS in our out. During the afternoon, there were strong thunderstorms in the NYC area, resulting in three- to four-hour air traffic delays. Needless to say, if I had planned to fly, I would not have made my appointment at 10am in NYC, nor would I have made it home that night.
The air shuttles are somewhat faster than the trains when all goes well (no weather or air traffic problems). It comes down to a risk/reward tradeoff -- where time, hassle, and cost are the factors. Over the long run, train travelers in these two market pairs will have a higher success factor (and lower overall cost) when using the train. That's not to say that some portion of their trips would have been a bit quicker by air.
Todd, Thanks for correcting the shuttle intricacies.
I remain optimistic that as AE works out bugs, it will like unto Metroliner before bring the ridership up. The ultimate benefit IMHO of the project was and is the electrification/line improvements as even an AEM7 (unrebuilt) with Amfleet cars can beat the times of any diesel hauled conventional train as well as saving the time wasted changing power at New Haven. "Take the all-weather rapid transit" (CTA slogan of the 50's.
One other correction: It's the "Delta Shuttle." "Delta Express" is
Delta's low-fare airline which runs mainly to Florida.
Maybe Amtrak will hire me again to do a new commercial about how
the Acela Express is "weatherproof." (The last version I did ran
on WCBS in NYC from October through January.)
Here's a link to the commercial I did for Amtak's Acela Express last year.
It'll be interesting to see what happens to the USAirways Shuttle if/when USAirways goes belly-up. It could be bad for Acela, and for the Delta Shuttle too, if a discount carrier picks up the shuttle and cuts fares significantly, to the point where they really undercut Acela and Delta. Both Delta and USAirways have long run their shuttle operations under the assumption that the business travelers who make up the bulk of their ridership aren't overly concerned about price. That assumption may have been true in the past, but is starting to change. Businesses today often regard travel costs as a prime area for cost-cutting. Hence a discount airline, with its lower operating costs, could really eat into Delta and Acela.
Exactly who might be willing to buy USAirways' shuttle is another matter. Southwest, the discount carrier par excellence, might not be interested because of its antipathy toward crowded, slot-controlled airports, although such a break with tradition is the sort of audacious move that Southwest would enjoy. JetBlue and AirTran are two other candidates, and in the former's case there's plenty of IPO money to snag the shuttle. It'll be interesting to see how things transpire.
I have my reservations about whether the NEC is really suitable for discount operations. Your point about the slot-controlled airports hits the nail on the head; other reasons why Southwest might not want to buy: (1) Shuttle demands use of 757's or 767's at peak times, not Southwest's favourite aircraft (2) USAir has a serious union problem, so if a non-union carrier wants to come in, they will need to dismantle the company and start from scratch, and they will need to do this before Acela runs them out of the market (3) The NEC is a very peaky market -- more so than other Southwest runs like Houston-Dallas; Southwest may well be forced against its limited price-discrimination philosophy
Southwest already run PVD/BWI flights, if I remember correctly; I think a few other players are running BWI/BOS and a few other OD pairs (I think it's JetBlue). In that sense the discount carriers are already in the NEC, but their traffic is nothing compared to Delta or USAir. I think there is a reason why discount carriers aren't attacking the busy parts of the NEC. That would be like Southwest trying to get into DFW.
Alicia
The Delta Shuttle runs 727s. USAirways Shuttle has some sort of Airbus plane. 767s are too big to take into National and if they used 757s, the shuttles would have been grounded until very recently. The ban on 757s since 9/11 was only lifted in the past two months.
All of Delta Shuttle's planes are now 737-800s. The 727s are gone.
USAirways Shuttle uses A-320s. (I can remember when Eastern flew
both the L-1011 and Airbus A-300 twin aisles on the BOS-LGA route
during peak times.)
As for the idea of a discount carrier in the shuttle market, NY Air
(Apple Air) tried that and went bankrupt -- operating costs are too
high.
BACK ON TOPIC.
Acela Express has been at "full service level" now for less than a year. Of course 9/11 gave them a boost, but I think it would have
gotten to a significant market share sooner or later. We haven't had an extended period of bad weather in recent years, where BOS or LGA is shut due to extensive fog or long-lasting snow storms. This too shall come!
My guess is that when things fall out, there will be one successful air shuttle, plus AE.
My guess is that when things fall out, there will be one successful air shuttle, plus AE.
Agreed. I figure that the surviving shuttle will be DL's - unless WN or B6 acquires the US shuttle, in which case that'll be the survivor. But Acela definitely will be around for the long haul, I've no doubt about that.
They are not at full AE levels yet, although my studies of the schedule while coming home on train 141 today showed that there is only express service between NY and Boston during peak times. There are still Metroliners in service for a few more weeks at least, the rumor is that it will be all AE in June. I saw the trainset with powercar 2000 in the yard at Philly. It has been there for quite some time though.
GOOD! I'm glad to see that Delta is worried. The short hop air-shuttles filled a niche before Amtrak stepped up to the plate.
These days you spend way more time in the terminal than on the plane!
I lived in Boston for 10 years, and getting into Logan at any time other than 5am is just a nightmare, unless you're coming from the North Shore. Delta clearly (intentionally) misses that.
The airlines should concentrate on better service on the transcon and international flights, where they are more clearly competitive. -Like lunches that don't come in a box, for example. Hopping planes on 30 minute flights just wastes our already limited supply of fossil fuel.
I'd like to see the SFO-LAX corridor get high speed rail next.
>>I'd like to see the SFO-LAX corridor get high speed rail
next. <<
YES!!!
instead of the insane plans to fill more of the Bay for more runways even as usage has dropped SFO several slots in usage ranking.
If you want to get high speed rail between SFO and LAX, the tracks has to be independent of freight lines and earthquake resistant.
Japan's Shinkansen provides an example of how to construct a high speed rail system with a lot of earthquakes. However, how to acquire land is a big problem.
Chaohwa
right on both points (quakes/exclusivity) There is an active movement for exactly that. Recent action in Cal stae legislature has been positive.
Good pep talk for Acela. We need to hear that.
As for SFO-LAX, do you people have any idea how much infrastructure costs? Exclusive infrastructure is not necessarily the answer. Back at TRB a while ago I saw an insane presentation on how they are going to build conventional HSR through the Tehechapi (or whatever) mountains with no provision for doublestacking and a 10-mile long tunnel. That tunnel alone will set you back some $500 million.
There are plenty of rail routes between SFO and LAX, although not all of them are suitable for HSR. For example, the Coastal Corridor (SP, single track, DTC) is probably too cuvatious and too much of a pain to maintain for HSR. However it's not an unthinkable proposal to simply add two express tracks beside the current BNSF(?) inland route with a few cut-offs where necessary. The tracks should be designed for both freight and passenger operation, particularly doublestacks. The economies of scope are huge. When the HSR trains go home for the night, freights could be detoured over the pax tracks while the freight line is closed for maintenance. Also, if capacity ever became an issue, they could use the pax line to segregate intermodal traffic from merchandise traffic, probably with a bunch of cab-signal fitted BNSF locomotives that can haul intermodal at 110mph. Now there's some competition for I-5.
Alicia
--
Alicia Emma Mueller VII, Pittsburgh PA
Actually the plans call for a line up the valley hitting the major pop. clusters roughly duplicating "99" As to costs, the mega tunnel you mention is AFAIK off the list for exactly that reason.
On dual use, however, I register dissent. 1. the freight guys already have heir own routes and if they want dounle track, let them ay for it out of stockholder investment. 2. Far more importantly, I have read that some high speed pass engineering conflicts with freight engineering--especially 'banking' or 'super elevation' on curves.
ethical disclosure--I am a VERY minor stockholder in CSX and NS
2. Far more importantly, I have read that some high speed pass engineering conflicts with freight engineering--especially 'super elevation' on curves.
This is true, but it is only true to the extent of increased maintenance. If the curve is engineered for a balancing speed of say 150mph, then it is probably possible to run pax trains at 200mph and freight trains at 110mph without problems. Don't have any calculations but curves are usually engineered for a balancing speed of 90mph when it is shared pax/freight track with pax at 125mph and freight at 60mph in the UK.
The superelevation cannot be so high that a train becomes unstable if it were stopped on such a curve. Emergency brake application, signal checks etc can cause a train to stop on a superelevated curve. By that token, freights can go through at any speed provided that the vehicles are designed that way. Wheel lubrication may save on maintenance costs.
1. the freight guys already have their own routes and if they want double track, let them ay for it out of stockholder investment.
If you're a really a stockholder in CSX/NS, you would be interested in any taxpayer's $ coming in to rescue your railroad. The latest talk from CSX has softened a lot on the front of allowing taxpayer investment. CN are the only people holding out but they are also the only railroad that hadn't really been "duplicated" by an interstate system paid for at taxpayers expense. If CalTrans is expecting to spend $ on this project, it had better do a social cost-benefit analysis and I suspect such analysis would show that the benefit of mixed traffic exceeds the costs.
Alicia
Since you mention, NO My view is that the CSX management are dishonest and incompetent. They have refused to run 'baseball specials' for MARC feigning lack of track capacity. These are the folks who whine about welfare moms (John Snow CEO was a signatory in newspaper ads supporting the Gingrich goons in their budget fights with Clinton) and then turn around demanding Fed or other public money for signal upgrades and trackage improvements before 'allowing' more MARC and VRE service increases. In the Virginia case they have realigned AF interlocking PUTTING back the flexibility they eliminated in one of the economy drives. While these improvements certainly ease operation of the few commuter trains, they ultimately are a great deal for the railroad. And although a stockholder (for railfan nostalia reasons) as a taxpayer I believe we are all being ripped off. It was under Snow's economy moves that bottlnecks wre creatd on the RF&P by single tracking a bridge etc. Now, they want public money to undo the private mistakes. Mind you the company gets public money to operate these commuter trains. And these are the geniuses who block auto racks from Lordstown Ohio to Jessup Md(halfway btwn DC and Balto) to then run them back west to first Hancock Jct. (ne train) and then Shenandoah Jct(second train) for interchange to NS. This is over one hundred miles backtracking on the SAME route.
It was under Snow's economy moves that bottlnecks wre creatd on the RF&P by single tracking a bridge etc. Now, they want public money to undo the private mistakes.
I have a completely different view. CSX's economy drive was completely correct under the market conditions under which they were operating. Short-sighted perhaps, but economically sound. Obviously, it was the lack of legislation preventing the ripping of plant that was to blame. In the 80's, after Stagger's Act, Congress obviously failed to realize that when the competition is based on price alone, no one will want to invest in plant, and they also failed to realize that one day the American public will want commuter trains again. So it's completely justified that the taxpayer should pay through their nose for those commuter train paths.
No one had the foresight in Congress to realize that they cannot continue to expand the interstate system indefinitely and one day they would have to turn back to the railroads for both passenger and freight capacity. It's about time CSX cashed in. Ditto BNSF, NS and UP.
Mind you the company gets public money to operate these commuter trains.
These commuter trains do not cover costs. The reason is simple -- the price of flexibility in schedules, especially in today's freight world, is vital. Commuter train throws a wrench into the unscheduled operations. Although there are benefits for scheduling freight trains also, it is only right that a customer who insists on to-the-minute ontime performance ought to pay for that privilege. The commuter authorities don't pay nearly enough for railroads to regard them as worth the hassle. CSX's railroads are private property -- no one, except Amtrak, have automatic rights of access.
Alicia
"CSX's railroads are private property -- no one, except Amtrak, have automatic rights of access."
BNSF *tries* (I think) to accomodate AMTK, but once an AMTK train is off schedule, though nuggies kiddo, we got a business to run too, you know.
Host roads should *gaurantee* a time slot to AMTK,
and pay penalties if they cause delays to AMTK trains.
On the other side, AMTK has an *obligation* to be on time, or they both lose their slots, and ought to also pay a penalty for delaying freight services.
ELIAS
While CSX is certainly a private company, as with any such publicly regulated utility, they are required to operate for "the public necessity and convenience." As to commuter trains being underpriced, each side in these negociations has lots of lawyers and bean counters, if CSX is undercharging, they signed the contract--its no different from underpricing a contract for intermodal,unit ooal or grain or any other shipment. As to commuter trains getting in the way of freight, CSX is in my estimation a joke. Stand trackside for instance at Point of Rocks (on the former B&O main)on a random November weekday for 5 plus hours--5 trains total including one MARC commuter. This is not a 'plugged' railroad.
Compare the following. I questioned a consignee at a plant tour regarding inbound unit coal trains for the generation units (AEP) getting a dejected response--deliveries (from an on line mine less than 150 miles away) are completely random and he gets no more than a couple of hours notice all of which results in massive overtime for his in plant switching crews as well as completely wasted time when no trains arrive for two days. Visit the CSX site to read the disgusting Performanc Measures.
While CSX is certainly a private company, as with any such publicly regulated utility, they are required to operate for "the public necessity and convenience."
And it should not be forgotten that historically, the so-called "freight" railroads were obligated by charter to operate passenger service. Amtrak was created specifically to take over this obligation from them, but they are not (at least morally) relieved of the obligation to facilitate the provision of passenger services on their roads.
-- Tim
no, but expecting US corporations to operate 'morally', without government compulsion, is like believing in the tooth fairy.
The RR's expected/hoped Atk would quietly go bankrupt within a few years and simply go away. Happily, for those of us who prefer trains, Atk continued to gain riders despite starvation funding, RR dispatching sabotage, etc.
no, but expecting US corporations to operate 'morally', without government compulsion, is like believing in the tooth fairy.
But toothfairy exists. I got my $ for my teeth.
The RR's expected/hoped Atk would quietly go bankrupt within a few years and simply go away.
How do you explain, then, that four railroads bought into ATK in the early 1970s? (yes, you could buy shares in ATK if you were a participating railroad.)
Happily, for those of us who prefer trains, Atk continued to gain riders despite starvation funding, RR dispatching sabotage, etc.
BNSF and NS have all been very positive about ATK trains, esp NS who gives ATK Triple Crown trailers to carry because NS is basically a coal haulier and they let ATK handle the express stuff. CSX and UP I'm not so sure about. CSX now has a vice-president of passenger operations -- the ex Amtrak guy Paul Reistrup. And he's not there just to guard paths for Coal trains. Don't bash these people. They have a business to run and they are trying their best to balance some very difficult objectives.
CSX intermodals run at an average speed of 23mph in the Northeast. I think they are going to get serious about some express stuff, possibly in conjunction with ATK or even instead of ATK. Express (well and tonnage) is how you make money these days. With the CTC coming on line on the B&O main, it won't be long before they could run two separate railroads, the CSX Coal railroad and the CSX intermodal/passenger railroad.
Alicia
Maybe in the northeast CSX will become more cooperative, but my own experience with them (on the lines through Virginia and North Carolina) is that they have gone out of their way to make things more difficult for Amtrak. Double track line used by six Amtrak trains each way per day? Single track it! Single track line used by two Amtrak trains each way per day? Abandon it! Underutilized double track line (thanks to the abandonment of the single track line mentioned above) with one track CWR, one track jointed rail, being considered for a possible DMU-powered commuter line by state and local government? Single track it by tearing out the three year old CWR! These three scenarios actually happened in the 1980s/early 1990s - the first was the ex-ACL line between Petersburg, VA and Weldon, NC, the second was the ex-SAL Virginia Division between Richmond, VA and a point just north of Henderson, NC, and the third was the remainder of that line into Raleigh, NC, four years later.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd like to see the SFO-LAX corridor get high speed rail
next.
YES!!!
instead of the insane plans to fill more of the Bay for more runways even as usage has dropped SFO several slots in usage ranking.
Increased low-fare competition from OAK is SFO's main problem.
I beg to differ, while I do not have stats to hand the general buzz here is less total travel. Even the otherwise very sucessful ATK and other (CalTrain, ACE) rail routes have sagged winter quarter because the economy is not too happy.
I'd like to see the SFO-LAX corridor get high speed rail next.
I think this corridor's fine. Comparing train schedules to plane schedules here is quite a bit of a difference. I experienced this on a United Shuttle from SFO to Burbank (in the vicinity of LA) and the flight time is around 1 hour. The distance is 326 miles. For business people who see it as "time is money", I think the shuttle over on the west coast is suitable, since one would not be carrying large baggage waiting for baggage check-in.
I researched a little bit on fares comparing the Delta Shuttle from BOS to LaGuardia on June 3rd in the morning and the afternoon. The 68-minute flight (RT) has a fare of $235.00.
Comparing to AMTRAK's Acela Express fare on the same date and times (not exactly), the estimated 3hr. 30 min. trip (RT) has a fare of $238.00.
I'm not a business man to experience, but which would you choose?
As a businessman I'd choose the train. What the timetable doesn't take into account is the amount of time spent getting between downtown and the airport, or the cost thereof. Factor that in and you'll find the AE to be comparable in time and cheaper in price. Plus there is the intangible value of a far more comfortable ride on Amtrak than on the taxi/airplane/taxi combination.
Speaking from experience...
Anon_e_mouse
If the flight was out of JFK, I'd take the plane. Out of LGA I'd probably take the train. Out of Newark I'd certainly take the train.
I neglected to mention that I would take the plane out of JFK because it's much easier to get to than Manhattan from my home. If I lived in Manhattan, then I wouldn't take the plane at all.
Well, I guess the Shuttle operates to LaGuardia, because when I plugged in JFK, some other jetliner flight caught my itinerary, making the price $435. Then I'd definitely take the train.
Based on the numbers you've listed, the biggest consideration would be where you're going once you get to Boston. If you're going somewhere near one of the Amtrak stations, I'd suggest the train. The possibility of lengthy delays, plus travel to and from the airports offsets any small time savings on the plane.
If you're heading somewhere out in the suburbs (and will need to rent a car) then you'll want to fly. Renting cars at Amtrak stations is generally a nuisance at best. If you're a frequent renter you can be in your car and on your way at an airport location within 15 minutes of when your plane touches down.
CG
I failed to mention that if you're not going to downtown Boston and you are coming from somewhere on Long Island, your cheapest and fastest bet is to take Southwest Airlines from Islip to Providence (r/t under $100) and rent your car there.
CG
I failed to mention that if you're not going to downtown Boston and you are coming from somewhere on Long Island, your cheapest and fastest bet is to take Southwest Airlines from Islip to Providence (r/t under $100) and rent your car there.
You also can get the MBTA from Providence to Boston. Presumably there's some sort of van or bus shuttle service from the airport to downtown Providence, though how convenient it is, I couldn't say.
It's interesting to note that Southwest's schedules tout PVD and MHT as "Boston area" airports, but don't call ISP "New York area." I can't figure out why.
<< It's interesting to note that Southwest's schedules tout PVD and MHT as "Boston area" airports, but don't call ISP "New York area." I can't figure out why. >>
Because PVD is in Rhode Island and MHT is in New Hampshire. ISP is in NY so it's superfluous to call it "New York area." Even diehard NYers don't think "NY" ends at the Queens/Nassau border.
It's interesting to note that Southwest's schedules tout PVD and MHT as "Boston area" airports, but don't call ISP "New York area." I can't figure out why.
Because PVD is in Rhode Island and MHT is in New Hampshire. ISP is in NY so it's superfluous to call it "New York area." Even diehard NYers don't think "NY" ends at the Queens/Nassau border.
True, but people traveling to New York from other parts of the country might not realize that ISP is quite convenient. WN should add a line to its schedule noting that there's a quick connection to New York.
Most people unfamiliar with NY geography will at least know that most of New York State is not near NYC. If MacArthur isn't listed as an NY-area airport, people won't consider it as such.
Flying from Islip to Providence is ridiculous, to me it seems like flying from Newark to Philadelphia. This is why a highway/RR cross-sound bridge is needed.
<< Flying from Islip to Providence is ridiculous, to me it seems like flying from Newark to Philadelphia. This is why a highway/RR cross-sound bridge is needed. >>
Which won't happen regardless of how much it may be needed. There's always the Pt. Jeff and Orient Point ferries. The PJ ferry doesn't save much time over driving unless you happen to live in PJ, but it does takes 2 hours out of the hardest portion of the drive between LI and Boston. OTOH, it's by no means cheap to take a car across on the ferry. My cousin (who lives in Boston) usually takes the Orient Point ferry to LI and then drives to Yaphank, and he says it's a real timesaver over driving the entire route.
Many years ago I took the PJ ferry to Bridgeport then hoofed it to the Bridgeport train station where after a 15 minute or so wait I hopped an Amtrack to Boston. Saved time, actually, because there would have been a 75 minute or so layover at NYP waiting for the train had I taken the LIRR into the City.
Also, I think the cabin-type would matter. It's a Business class on the train and a Coach class (unless if you want to pay more and upgrade) on the plane. But the seats don't have a lot of difference, just the train has more comfort, curtains for the windows, elegant, new atmosphere, etc.
BTW, why are seats toward the center of each car slanted so you face the train at an angle, instead of "in-line" like the regular seats?
Now you guys got me interested. You have basically re-stated what I had believed all along: Metro access is vital to the competitiveness of HSR. Now, let me to one of those stated preference tests:
Supposing, just supposing, there was some way for the Acela to depart from locations other than Penn Sta. Excuse me if I sound really stupid but I don't know NYC very well. Say we made Acela terminals at the following locations, with running time from that location to BOS given:
Jamaica (4 hrs 10 mins)
Flatbush Av (3 hr 50 mins)
Concourse, Bronx (3 hr 20 mins)
Acela timing from NYP-BOS is about 3 hr 30 mins.
Now would you take the train? Even if the train only goes to South Station, so you would need to run around in BOS looking for a taxi or some car hire place.
Alicia
Some of your suggestion are not hypothetical at all, but actually similar to quite real items, and some are simply impossible.
There already are 4 Amtrak NEC stations in the NYC suburbs: Newark and Metropark NJ, New Rochelle NY, Stamford CT. Jamaica is theoretically possible, but you'd have to make the train reverse direction in Penn. And actually, there are so many LIRR trains from Jamaica to Penn that it's pretty convenient to take a train in to Penn and switch to Amtrak. Flatbush Ave is out of the question; you'd have to go back to Jamaica first; easier to take a subway to Penn.
A new Amtrak station in the east Bronx (not Concourse, which is nowhere near the ROW) is theoreticaly feasible. Much of the Bronx ROW is not densely populated, so it's hard to see Amtrak justifying such a station, except maybe at the far south end of Co-op city (but that's not really convenient to the actual buildings in Co-op City).
I think the problem is more on the Boston end. If you're not going to downtown Boston or the southwest (Rte 128), the train may not be so convenient. Of course, Logan isn't convenient to anywhere much either. For business travelers, the problem is that the large array of offices in the western suburbs isn't convenient to any form of tranist. Some people fly to Providence event hough it's further because the traffic is lighter.
All Amtrak trains also stop at Boston's Back Bay station, which is right in the center of the Copley Square/Prudential complexes. It is also adjacent to the Orange Line and one block from the Green Line.
At one time there was a plan to send Amtrak to Port Jefferson, but I don't know what ever came of that.
At one time there was a plan to send Amtrak to Port Jefferson, but I don't know what ever came of that.
When was this idea proposed? I'd like to know. Would it require drastic changes for that to happen?
At one time there was a plan to send Amtrak to Port Jefferson, but I don't know what ever came of that.
When was this idea proposed? I'd like to know. Would it require drastic changes for that to happen?
When the redbirds go to the 207th Street yard, do they go as a ten car set, or when they retire from revenue service are they pulled by a engine, I noticed directly across from the East 180th street station, they are some Dyre Avenue trains, that look like they could be heading out of service, Thank You
A number of cars go into temporary storage at Concourse Yard before going to the reef. Not sure how many cars go at a time to 207th St, but a 10 Car Train sounds about right. They emerge into 207th St under their own power, and come out as empty shells, a significant departure from their former glory. Diesels pull them around to the back of the yard by 215th St and remain there until it is time to be loaded onto the barge. The carbodies go into the water, but the trucks are actually scrapped the old fashioned way. The 'birds use dummy couplers for movement with the diesel, as the actual operating couplers are removed.
-Stef
Trainsets sent for demise go as married pairs. CI Peter
Till death do us apart!!!.
I just got upstairs from scanning in a couple of pictures for you guys and I've discovered that geocities has gone down again for maintainance for most of the Victoria Day weekend and I can't load them up. Nuts, espeically since there's one that at least a few people will get a laugh out of. They'll be available as soon as geocities gets up and running again....
-Robert King
They had sent me e-mail about that several weeks ago and when I tried uploading today, as soon as I saw the error message, I remembered.
www.orenstransitpage.com will be back up when Geocities is and new content with a new layout will be online shortly after that.
When do you think the last redbird will be retired? Will they keep some redbids for fan trips?
I heard from "8AV Fulton Exp" (AOL screen name) that MTA can't get rid of all the Redbirds. Can somebody update on that as I don't know about this situation.
Thank You.
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Here's a look at one of the new NJT Comet V cab commuter cars scheduled to be delivered by 2003. Some design components have been revised from the Comet IV as to make it slightly lighter (about 6 to 13,000lbs). We're gladly waiting for it from ALSTOM.
Click on the corresponding links of your choice to view that picture:
Comet V cab car 6000
Comet V trailer 6500
Both pictures were taken on April 3, 2002 by Steve Kay at the Meadowlands Maintenance Complex.
Purpose
NJ TRANSIT is purchasing up to 230 push-pull rail cars, of which 200 are required to replace the Comet I fleet and certain Comet II cars. The remainder will allow for ridership growth stemming from the Secaucus Transfer, Montclair Connection and other services. At the request of Metro-North Commuter Railroad, up to 30 cars (5 push-pull control cars and 25 push-pull trailers) have been included in the option for Metro-North who will reimburse NJ TRANSIT for the cost of the cars.
Description
130 new single-level push-pull commuter rail cars are being purchased with an option for an additional 100 cars for a total of 230 cars. This includes 50 cab control cars with 110 seats, 80 trailer cars with 118 seats and an option for 53 additional cab cars and 47 additional trailer cars.
The Comet V cars will be the first cars to be totally controlled by the IEEE 1473 network trainline. Cab cars, new electric and diesel locomotives will have fully integrated controls and diagnostics. All train systems diagnostics will have a wireless connection to the NJ TRANSIT maintenance system. The Comet V cars can be configured in any direction within a train. All Comet V systems can be monitored from any car in a train. The Comet V cab cars will be equipped with the Positive Train Stop (PTS) system.
With the exception of the front of the Comet V, the sides look similar to the M-7's.
Bill "Newkirk"
With the exception of the front of the Comet V, the sides look similar to the M-7's.
I thought the sides look like an Acela Express car without the colors and the side doors. Do you have a picture of an M-7?
RF Pete,
I don't have any M-7 pictures, but try this.
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=161704&messageid=1021514397&lp=1021514397
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill you're right, they do resemble M-7s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why do all the Year 2000+ new commuter RR cars look the same even if they are being designed by suposidly different firms? Tapered sides, acordian gates, flat stainless steel, you'd think these things were rapid-transit vehicles. Come on, can't we see some corregation or something. Dosen't that enhance stregnth? Notice how the old "bad" cars would typically seat 130 people and the new cars only seat 118. I'd rather sit in a cramped seat than stand.
Stupid FRA, out-lawing vestabule cabs. Didn't they see the crash test w/ the Silverliner 1's? The cabs act like a crumple zone! Ah well, its not like the crews ever let you use them.
Bears a striking resemblance to the LIRR M-7. Definitely obvious who their makers are.
There is definitely similarity here, but not by much. Don't forget that the M7's have a black looking front similar to the R142(A)/143. Also, the top headlight is different than the Comet V's.
This past week, I spent two days near DC to check out Metro and other things. Since I was staying at a motel in Laurel, I was about 8 miles from the Green line Greenbelt station of Metro.
The new CAF cars are presently in revenue service on the Green Line, though I haven't seen any elsewhere. The cars basically look identical to former equipment. There are small differences of course, but there are some new items to note.
1) The interior fluorescent lighting uses cool white tubes as opposed to the pinkisk warm white. Maybe it's the different fluorescent tubes, but the walls seem an eggshell white.
2) The carpets are an updated color of blue /dark red. Say goodbye to the old gold and brown rugs.
3) The seat cushions are now blue and dark red. An improvement from the old gold vinyl. The seat cushions on the transverse seating at the ends are still gold.
4) There is a visual LED annunicator sign on the ends of the cars like the R-142/143. One train I was on had the signs visually annoucing stations, while the other I rode said GREEN. There was verbal announcments on the two trains I were on, so the operator announced all stations. The sound quality of the pA seems better and clearer compared to the older cars.
5) The front and side signs are not flip dots, but LED's. Even the route stripe was green LED's. The signs are nice and bright.
6) Sounds - These cars have AC propulsion and sound different than the Rohr cars which were retrofitted for AC propulsion. They sound similar to the R-142 (Bombardier) but still different.
7) The cars are fast and have the usual Metro ride. I asked a train operator at Greenbelt how he liked the cars. He said they are very good, but still needs to have the bugs worked out on them.
Next time you're in DC, head over to the Green line and check them out. Photography is best on the outdoor stations on the Greenbelt side.
Bill "Newkirk"
You were lucky to get one, I have yet to even see one.
The trains do not have automated announcements. The T/O should have been making announcements. I am surprised they were all that clear, the Green Line T/Os are known for mumbling more than on the other lines.
>>You were lucky to get one, I have yet to even see one<<
Both days, I saw at least two trainsets running. While riding one, another was on the opposite side going the other way.
Where are these cars manufactured ? Spain ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Where made? Hunt Valley Maryland. At the northern end of Balitmore's light rail line.
Can you tell me what are the numbers for these cars? Are they 5000s?
Thank you.
The CAF cars will number 5000-5191.
wayne
Best station for that would be Prince George's Plaza - I will be going to DC in late June and will be sure to check them out. Green Line is high on the to-do list due to the fact that I haven't been south of Anne Accost Ya.
wayne
Construction for this new terminal, slated to replace Bridge-Pratt, is underway. In fact when approaching on the Blue Line, the first thing you'll notice is the concrete trackways. The trackways are partial in construction, but there are concrete forms for the rest and a lot of constructuion activity going on.
Normally I would suggest that the warm weather is here and head to Philly and photograph the construction. However, to play it safe, I asked a supervisor if it was alright. I told him I was a transit enthusiast and I was not with the news media.He didn't say yes and didn't say no either. He told me that permission from the Philadelphia Police Dept. was now the norm. He also said, "don't let any cops see you taking pictures". To play it safe, I boarded the next train and didn't make any waves.
This seems to me that another thing we have taken for granted has been affected by 9/11. Has anyone been told the same thing and what is SEPTA's ruling on photograhy within the system.
Bill "Newkirk"
SEPTA, even before 9/11, was pretty tough on photography. It is the only place where I can count on being challenged, and indeed, I have been, by the police, usually asking if I had a permit. It's probably a good idea to go to SEPTA HQ and ask for a permit first, otherwise, take your pictures at street level.
--Mark
Even several years ago, I was advised by a SEPTA police officer that I couldn't take pictures from the platform at Bridge/Pratt. In the '70s and '80s, I regularly took photos there without a word from anyone.
I was told by a SEPTA police officer at Fern Rock that I couldn't photograph on SEPTA property. I was trying to photograph one of the U34CH's that SEPTA leased from NJDOT to take trains from the Reading lines into 30th Station via the Belmont Junction interchange when the track into Reading Terminal was closed for trackwork.
More recently, also at Fern Rock, I was railfanning SEPTA with Keystone Pete when the BSS dispatcher made some cryptic remarks to Pete about photography on the platform.
Years ago, nobody seemed to care much about photography on SEPTA property other than at yards, carbarns and shops. That said, it was possible in the late '70s to sign a release at SEPTA HQ (then at 3rd and Wyoming) and roam around to your heart's content through the bays or outdoor storage tracks - unescorted - at Luzerne Depot, camera in hand, with no problems at all. (Those were still the glory days of the PCCs in Philadelphia!) Knowing the risks posed by inspection pits and such, I imagine this practice has long since been abandoned.
3rd and Wyoming....rough 'hood.
Im looking to move in the near future, and im curious...
Flushing and Jamaica Estates.
Williamsburg hands down!
Astoria. Absolutely. Preferably Broadway. So much good food!
John
Is there a neighborhood in NYC where you can't find good food?
Yes. but you don't have to worry about that in astoria.
nevermind the food. i can live off the chocolate alone. amonia cafe all the way...
There are still four or five good restaurants in Little Italy that serves great Dago food. I will sure to hit a few of them while I'm in town. Are you riding the rails next week?
Maybe, but it will be the Gettysburg RR. Memorial Day and Labor Day Weekends are the only time we actually can get away for a whole three days.
Are you really visiting Gettysburg on either Memorial Day or Labor Day?
Give my regards to Taormina's if you go there.
I liked the place where we ate last year
So do I. What was the name of the place? I forgot. Hope you had a good vacation. E-Mail me. I have some news to tell you that I don't want to burden others on the site with.
I will call you about 6PM your time
Maspeth, of course!
Brooklyn Heights
The Kings Highway section, now known as Madison Pk, shopping, Edelman s Deli, Express stop on The Brighton, hasn t changed that much in 50 years, except a little More Orthodox. And you still can get a egg cream
can you mention Why is it your favorite neighborhood? Im tryin to gather info on different areas to see where i wanna move. Thanks!
The most important considerations FOR ME (and remember, I don't have a family so schools are not #1 on my list) are...
To quote Lawrence Olivier, is it safe?
Is it along a major transit route? I don't drive,
and is there a real neighborhood, a sense of community? I wouldn't want to go to a street of little boxes that all look just the same, and have to hit the mall whenever I wanted something.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Flatlands is a favorite of mine, for it's 'suburbia in the city' feel to it, but it is certainly inconvenient for those dependent on mass transit.
Prospect Heights as I mentioned in another post has much to offer:
(1) Relatively safe now (like Williamsburg of the '70's it was a baaaad a-- 'hood).
(2) It has excellent access to transit: The Franklin Shuttle and/or the IRT at Eastern Parkway or Grand Army Plaza. Of course the FS allows for access to the Fulton/8th Avenue subway, so for the transit-dependent it is a superior choice of neighborhood.
(3) The neighborhood is adjacent to trendy Park Slope (restaurants & shopping), yet the rents are more affordable as it is on it's way to becoming upscale.
(4) close proximity to arts and culture institutions. The Brooklyn Museum of Art, Botanic Gardens, and the Central Branch of the Brooklyn Public Library are all within walking distance.
I also recommend Sheepshead Bay if you love being near the ocean. It has one of the largest fishing fleets in the city. Transportation is provided by the Majestic Brighton Beach Line of the BMT. Of course if you are more on the eastern edge of Sheepshead Bay (closer to Knapp St.) you would be dependent on bus-to-subway for sole transportation if you don't own a car.
Ridgewood!
I would have to say Ridgewood also....
Is the Ridgewood you are talking about Queens Ridgewood or Brooklyn Ridgewood.
Fred liked my old neighborhood of Kings Highway
I sure did. I really like those Ukranian girls with the high cheek bones and pretty faces. Wow' Good thing I'm married, loyal to my wife and a gentleman and a scholar.
Is the Ridgewood you are talking about Queens Ridgewood or Brooklyn Ridgewood.
I used to live in the "Queens" Ridgewood, but it was only a few blocks from Brooklyn. My old neighborhood had sort of a "Brooklyn" feel, with older buildings, etc, and it was on the side of Forest Avenue that was for some reason able to escape loosing it's original street names, instead of the Queens "numbered" Streets. Most of Queens lost it's street names in the early 1900's. Luckily my old section of Ridgewood kept it's names.
GP: There was a world of difference between the two Ridgewoods in the early 50's. The Queens side was about 50-50 between Yankee and Dodger fans, with a few New York Giants fans to pollute the equation. On the Brooklyn side all you saw were Dodger shirts and hats. Like about 99% of the kids were fans of the Bums.
GP: There was a world of difference between the two Ridgewoods in the early 50's. The Queens side was about 50-50 between Yankee and Dodger fans, with a few New York Giants fans to pollute the equation. On the Brooklyn side all you saw were Dodger shirts and hats. Like about 99% of the kids were fans of the Bums.
lol......I grew up there in the 70's and 80's (on the Queens side), so I never had the pleasure of having to worry about the Dodgers.......but I guess the fans were about 50/50 for the Mets or Yankees at the time.
Bay Ridge is a nice, safe neighborhood with a lot of facilities (lots of food, lots of stores, decent subway/bus access, etc), and the rent is reasonable.
Bay Ridge all the way.
Yes, very nice. I chose it over all other Brooklyn neighborhoods (if you can't afford the Heights, Bay Ridge is very nice).
The R train can suck sometimes, tho'. With the Man Br mess, it's usually a long long all-local-stop trip into Manhattan.
>>>>Bay Ridge is a nice, safe neighborhood with a lot of facilities (lots of food, lots of stores, decent
subway/bus access, etc), and the rent is reasonable. <<<
Bay Ridge rents have caught up with rents in the rest of NYC, ie. completely unreasonable. 3 rooms should not cost $900-$1000...May God have pity on us if Pataki realizes his lifelong dream and eliminates rent control.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Word to the wise: If you depend on a car for transportation you might want to reconsider Bay Ridge...
Bay Ridge is a NIGHTMARE if you own a car! If you don't have access to a garage expect to (1) get ticketed often or (2) develop a 'buddy system' with a neighbor who also drives to garranttee yourself a spot.
Unless you have a house with a driveway/garage.
it's a nightmare by transit if the r is cut to 59th...
Sounds a lot like Manayunk in Philadelphia!
Thats much more reasonable than what i am paying now in Sunnyside. I have a huge(1100 sq ft) 1 bedroom apartment that i am paying $1600 for.
Woodlawn, in the Bronx....Nice quiet, Irish neighborhood.
Works for me.
Also, I like Ridgewood.
Glad that someone finally spoke up for The Bronx. The adjoining neighborhoods of Bedford Park and Norwood are nice too.
Excellent, one seat, public transportation to midtown via 4 choices, The D/B train, The 4 train, Metro North or LL express bus.
Nice ethnic mix, Old Irish/Jewish, Asian (and many excellent restaurants), Hispanic, West Indian, African and many young families from the Balkans also.
Rents are also cheaper than most other similar areas in Queens or Brooklyn. Usually about $700 or so for a 1 B/R in a decent building.
Oh and don't forget. Van Cortland Park and the INCOMPARABLE NY botancal garden within walking distance.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for the props! I live in the Bronx. I LOVE Westchester Square and Middletown Road along the 6 line. Pelham Bay Park is great, too.
Uh, Andee...that's 'Da Bronx of Course!' Get it right..
;-D
Sorry...I refuse to perpetuate linguistic stereotypes.
Peace,
ANDEE
Born and raised in DA BRONX ... whatchoo talkin' about Willis? If you can't manage an authentic dialect, maybe you aren't spongeworthy. :)
Don't forget the incredibly good Puerto Rican food. I've gone to Jerome Avenue just to eat breakfast sometimes - stuff your face with a delicious breakfast for $5!
Very true...and don't forget....Pastellas(sp?) to DIE for.
Peace,
ANDEE
Pastellilos ... and I'd give my left NUT right now for one the way they used to make them years ago at Merit Farms ... in the window. Hola! Esta muy bien! Viva la Bronx! :)
Just to make you jealous...I had some the other night.
Peace,
ANDEE
Are they STILL in the large original form of a half-moon that's all yellow greasy? A folded 10 or 12 inch in diameter with meat down in the bottom like one of those "duck call whistles" that never worked, or are they those BS "Jamaican meat pattie" type ripoffs with "caribbean spices" instead of what Las PuertoRiqueno Grandmere made only on holidays?
The *REAL* pastellilos are not to be found, only those ripoff "caribbean style meat patty-like objects" from Philadelphia ... if you can find the real thing, I wanna make some arrangements with whereever you FOUND them ... those things are better than sex if they're REAL.
By the way - important correction, spelled "pastelillo" wrong. THOSE were the *ONE* thing I miss not living in the Bronx ... those and handmade Jamaican meat patties. (though both have been replaced by these awful GOYA "caribbean style empanada-like substitutes" that can even be bought up here in Smallbany (phew! Yuck.)
I swear, pastelillos have become a "lost art" among Riquenos ... grandma made them for holidays and Merit Farms sold them by the case (and they were REAL) ... words cannot describe how much I *miss* those ... and curried goat dinners and other wonderful things that you just can't get outside da chitty ...
Sorry for turning it to food, but DA BRONX (BMTman has it right) is a very unique experience, mostly food, part drugs. :)
ANDEE sent me this a while ago, but it's worth sharing again. Heh.
You're truly from the Bronx if you can relate to any of the following:
The subway is not fun.
You know some Spanish even if you never took it in school.
Is it just me, or is every girl a real bitch?
You've taken the Bx31.
You once fell asleep on the train after midnight, and the conductor woke
you up in Brooklyn.
The Grand Concourse has too many lights.
If you're from Westchester you're not really from NEW YORK.
You don't go to Manhattan; you go to "the City" or "downtown."
The Major Deegan sucks, so does the New England Thruway, and the West
Side Highway costs too much, but you know them like the back of your
hand.
Your parents took you out for REAL seafood, in City Island.
You've gone to at least 10 different Parish Bazaar's whether you were
Catholic or not and whether you liked the school or not.
People live in groups and you know or you can tell where each group
lives: Italian, Black, Puerto Rican, or Dominican.
There is at least one pizza place within 1 block of your house.
You love your car.
You curse a lot.
You know the difference between going with, seeing, fooling around with,
and going out with someone.
Private beach? What's that?
You know where to find alcohol at 3 AM.
You've stumbled into a diner-- after 4 a.m.
You have no reason to go to the South Bronx, except for Yankee games.
You've driven under the train.
You're appalled, but go to the Motel on Webster.
You've been to Bronx Zoo at least once for every grammar school trip.
There is a bar down the block and you've hung out there.
There is a 24 hour store a few blocks away.
You can correctly pronounce places like Long Island, but don't know how
to get there.
Your parents always talk about moving away, but you know they never
will.
When you say you live in the Bronx, people look at you like you're
poverty stricken and you just feel the need to slap them right then and
there.
You always take the express bus and not the train home from the city at
night.
The only decent mall is in White Plains (galleria), and you're willing
to make the trip.
Your mom always talks about Alexander's that used to be on Fordham Road
You are a drug dealer.
You know you're from the Bronx when there is a Big Pun mural within 5
miles of your house.
You're on a first name basis with the Arab who runs that 24 store, and
he even gives you a pound.
You know at least 3 drug dealers in every building next to a bodega.
You know where to buy loose cigarettes.
You've been able to buy tobacco products since u were 15.
At least one of your friends knows how to roll a Dutchmaster (duchie)
You insist the Bronx has the best weed.
You think a slice of pizza and a 25 cent juice is a well balanced meal.
Every year when you were little around Christmas time you'd go to the
house on Pelham pkwy.
Everyone calls each other "BRO"
You know all the cops at the 45th pct. by name.
Everyone swears that they are related.
You've spent some part of your life smoking weed and drinking on the
corner.
You know at least 3 Tony's and 4 Maria's.
When you hear people calling each other outside their building instead
of using their phones.
When little Italy mean's Arthur Ave. instead of Little Italy in
Manhattan.
When u tell people from Manhattan to come visit u in the Bronx they get
scared they're gonna get stabbed or robbed.
Moo. :)
And......You probably root for those God=^%$%#$@&* Yankees, unless you have that rare attribute called class.
I do you old F*rt, and you know I do
They're exceptions to every rule---and you don't have to keep bringing up my age. It's all in the mind anyway.
Calm down, Fred. Kevin's a Met fan, too.
You're right. I kind of forgot. Everytime I hear the word Bronx, I hear the Yankees and my day is partially shot to hell.
Unca Fred ... I thought I already passed your "huh test?" :)
I'm not particularly into sports but if I *had* to choose a baseball team, it WOULDN'T be Steingrabber ... so as I've said before, put me down as a METS fan. But alas, growing up in Da Bronx, professional uniformed sports is an anathema. A broomstick and a spaulding make for a proper ball game. :)
Kevin: I got a real shocker when I spent a few weeks in the city back in '91 and '99. They don;t play stickball anymore, either in the street or against handball courts--you know the square box strike zone and all that. I saw no one playing it in the parks. The game seems to have disappeared like the old candy stores I remember. A lost of New York seems to be disappearing before my eyes. When I was a kid stickball, the handball court variety, was my game and I was very good at it. Sorry to see the game go. It worked wonders for the batting eye when we played hardball for the PAL.
Heh. I wasn't terribly good at it but it sure was more fun than "real" baseball ... I guess "Johnny ride a pony" is out of vogue too. But hey, it was fun while it lasted and the price was right.
So is, hopscotch, ring-o-levio(sp?) and 1-2-3 redlight.
Peace,
ANDEE
Dang! What's the point of showing up then? :)
THE FOOD! and excellent mass transit.
Peace,
ANDEE
.
Heh. Surf old buddy ... you're slipping. What y'all need is an egg cream ... for those outside the city (YO FRED!) ... revive that "fresh off a LoV" nostalgia with this little ditty:
1.) Get a good size 12 oz. glass and pour in one cup of half and half.
2.) Put a tablespoon into the glass of cold half and half and pour in the warm seltzer while stirring until the familiar head which appears in about a second.
3.) Add seltzer to your favorite height while stirring and then...
4.) Add 4 tablespoons of the vanilla syrup and stir it up!
That's my personal recipe for a homemade vanilla eggcream, you can make it chocolate if you prefer by using a thin chocolate syrup instead of the vanilla.
If your're really brave you can add a scoop of your favorite ice cream to the edge of the glass but don't tell your doctor or your dietician about any of this.
"Thin Chocolate Syrup"??
If doesn't have U-Bet in it, it ain't an egg cream.
Heh. Couldn't agree more about the Fox's ... but when you get more than 100 miles from da city, you can't find that stuff. Sometimes Hershey's has to do it or you might as well have a sarsparilla. :)
OK guys, here is what I need and need like yesterday. Where can I get a good egg cream in New York this weekend? I need to know the street and borough and how to get there from the Milford Plaza where I will be staying Saturday to Tuesday. I haven't had a real egg cream in decades. If you can help me out, please do. I would appreciate it very much. I don't even know if any candy stores still exist that serve them so I am at your disposal.
You're staying at the Mildew Plaza? Ewwwwwww. Heh. Watch out for the wimmens outside - they're not REALLY wimmens. :)
Sorry I can't recommend any places, all the good places (especially the Gem Spa downtown) ain't there anymore. I'm sure someone will know someplace "in town" though so you don't have to wander out to Norwood or East New York to cop one ...
What about that place Bob referred to in Brooklyn? You could ask him.
We can always mail you some! :)
--Mark
Heh. A CARE package for the hillbillies ... I love it! (don't forget to pack some GO's [the hot dogs, not the bulletins] and some pastelillos and meat patties) ... ;)
I'd pass on the hotdogs - too much Lysteria or Salmonella risk ... we wouldn't want you to stop writing code :)
--Mark
That which would kill us only makes us stronger. After all, street dogs build strong antibodies 12 ways. :)
DWDs*, may they live forever!!!!!!!!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
*Dirty Water Dogs
Some others have gone on about you should only use Fox's U-BET syrup. But I have a question, what is "thin" chocolate syrup.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have NO idea in all sincerity ... watered down? Supermarket swill? I've had decent results with Hershey's myself but it ain't authentic. I merely passed along a recipe I'd gotten from someone else since there's so many other folks who have mentioned how much they miss the "real thing" and figured Unca Fred needed some "get ready" so he can get into the "real thing" ... sorta like having Oscar Meyer hot dogs in preparation for Sabretts. :)
hehehe
My kids are still playing most of those games. Except not Stickball, and don't forget "Kick the Can" ...
--Mark
I've definitely seen kids playing hopscotch in Clinton Hill.
Jeez...I went into a Restoration Hardware, and as a "nostalgia" item, they were selling "SpalDEEEENS".
I may try a new survey: head into every Subway Sandwich place I know of, and ask them if they know what a BMT sandwich means.
>>>...if they know what a BMT sandwich means.<<<
According to their website it means "Big Meat Taste".
Peace,
ANDEE
If they had an IRT snadwich, would it stand fr, "It's Really Tasty"?
Yipe! I'd rather have a Blimpie (r)
Which is why they don't sell them at Subway... the Blimps only ran on the Pacific Electric :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ooch! Ow! There's "Subway shops" all around this area and frankly, I'd rather have a "Yankee Frankee" at 59 St ... or "Nedicks" ... when it came to IRT/IND/BMT food, that's why lunch was always a street doggie.
I'd like to see Subway offer a Lumbering Lardbucket sandwich.:-)
And here I was thinking they were made with wood chips from standards. Slap me. :)
When I go to a Subway restaurant, I like to suggest having an IND and an IRT to go with their BMT and seeing the reaction of everyone behind the counter. Usually they don't have the slightest idea of what I'm talking about. No surprise, especially in Denver. I've met a good number of people who have never even been to New York.
Heh. You should ask them if they have any R9 parts. :)
Me: "I'll have a spur-cut pinion gear, please"
Guy behind counter: "With mustard and mayo?"
Heh. Hold the mayo, I'll have a greasebag please. :)
How about a hotbox with oil & vinegar?
Ahem,
Yours truly is from Da Bronx originally. Grew up there, left in 1970, but still have friends there.
1) The subway IS fun (OK but maybe a few don't admit it).
2) Bronx girls are VERY desirable - maybe the problem is the Bronx Guy :0)
3) As for the rest? I admit, my friends in the Bronx didn't know where Queens was until I took them by the hand and escorted them onto the LIRR (LIRR? is that the train you can beat just by walking?)
Bronx pizza is the best - esp. Paula Pizza at 161 St near the Stadium.
>>>...Las PuertoRiqueno Grandmere made only on holidays?<<<
These are the originals, just like you describe. E-mail me and I can see about shipping arrangements.
Peace,
ANDEE
Phuck a duck ... you're not sheeting? Wowsers ... been up all night writing code and whipping the old willy ... will write in a minute or so but don't expect an answer until after the sun goes down. Some of us need our nappie. :)
Also Bay Ridge only has the slow, local R train, the most boring, dull line in the system. Along the Sea Beach is better, but would be really great if the line ran more often and the MTA would stop neglecting it. Still though, the N is much better than the R. The N should never have to ride the local and tunnel with the R.
Just for the record I am not Qtraindash7; I am Sea Beach Fred. QT7 writes his own posts but I'm sure some of you out there might even think it was me posing as him. Not so. But good going pal, you said it even better than I could. You going to be riding the Redbirds and Triplexes next week? If so, see you there.
You will reconize Fred by the Met Colored Baseball Cap saying #4Sea Beach Fred, and the N T Shirt, and the chatter. Sorry I could not make it, but see you all in October
October 13 is the big day. I can't wait!
And a light blue shirt with #4 Sea Beach Fred written across in jolly ollie orange. Keep a lookout guys because I will be at track one on the Times Square Shuttle on Sunday.
May God have pity on us if Pataki realizes his lifelong dream and eliminates rent control.
Rent Control does JACK SQUAT to make apartments cheaper. All it does is create a disincentive to maintain existing housing stock, forcing landlords to become slumlords. The market is the best place to set rents, not some ridiclulous board.
If you want a stable monthly payment, buy a condo or co-op. Rentals are for transients and 20-somethings.
Rent Control does JACK SQUAT to make apartments cheaper. All it does is create a disincentive to maintain existing housing stock, forcing landlords to become slumlords. The market is the best place to set rents, not some ridiclulous board.
Which, of course, has long since been realized by just about everyone outside NYC.
>>>The market is the best place to
set rents, not some ridiclulous board. <<<
If they got rid of rent control, the landlord would raise my rent a few hundred and I'd be out on my ear...
www.forgotten-ny.com
But then somebody would be willing to pay that much for the apartment, and you're just getting something for less than it's worth.
Price controls have been tried many times, they have always failed. Producers do not want to sell something if they cannot make the maximum profit on it, in which case they just bow out of the business, and shortages result.
Guess what there's a shortage of in New York?
Rent control *is* the reason why rents are so high.
Nobody has built any rental properties in more than 30 years.
Why? Because of rent control. Your landlord is not supposed to provide welfare for his tenants! The price of everything goes up, his rents can be raised. What the heck, his only choice is to abandon the property if he can.
Any new building built since the 70s had to be a CoOp or a condominium. You have to *buy* your apartment, and then pay a Monthly Maintenance Fee on top of that. When you see what those people are paying, (Mortgage + Maintenance) and that is the price you *SHOULD* be paying for a comprable appartment.
Rent control *may* (or may not) have had its place during world war two, but It was the death knell for a large part of the city when it continued beyond that time.
Elias
"The price of everything goes up, his rents can be raised. What the heck"...
What the heck... that *should* read "can't"
Somehow my keyboard has its onw ideas on what is or isn't fair.
Elias
uhm, it's no longer 1985. $900 for 3 rooms in a good neighborhood is not bad.
Let me see, for me theres 2. One is Stillwell Avenue in the Bronx. It's a quiet neighborhood near Westchester. It's only a few minute busride from Pelham Bay Park. My Second is Stillewll Avenue in Brooklyn. I just like being near Coney Island
Even though Coney Island has lost most of its charm over the past four decades or so I still refuse to call it seedy. I still love going there when I hit town. They have the Cyclone, my all time favorite ride that no other roller coaster, new or old, will ever replace, it has Nathan's where I can still get some good shrimp and scallops, it has Garguilo's good Italian food, and it now has the baseball Cyclones. I'm a kid again when I go there, and when I arrive Saturday morning I will check into my hotel and then take a train out to the place and ride the Cyclone. Oh yes, I can't ride the Sea Beach there. I have to go slumming and take either the Brighton or the West End. DAMN!@!!!!!!
Well, you can always take the Sea Beach a few stops to New Utrecht and catch the West End upstairs.
When exactly are you going to be in town? On weekdays this week and next (but not Memorial Day itself), between 10am and 2:30pm, the Stillwell-bound W is scheduled to run on the Sea Beach. Based on past experience, it's probably running on the express track from 59th to Stillwell nonstop, while the N makes local stops and terminates at 86th as usual. The W will even give you a ride over the bridge and on the express tracks in Manhattan. You won't get a railfan window, unfortunately, and the Manhattan-bound W runs on the West End, as usual.
I will be in town this Saturday through most of Tuesday and I will take you up on your suggestion. Are you going to be riding the Triplex on Monday next?
I want to say something smart assed about Fred but I can t. He is staying at The Milford laza Hotel on I think 45 and 8th, so wake him up
Say something smart assed about Fred? Now why would you want to do a thing like that?
New material for the Bob and Fred Show, perhaps?:-)
Bob: Fred staying at the Milford Plaza? You mean the Hotel Dixie closed now?
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I'm afraid I will be in Baltimore and/or Washington next Monday, so unless the Triplex takes a detour, no.
I don't have one, since I consider all of NYC outside of Manhattan to be occupied territory, therefore there is no such things as a "NYC neighborhood outside of Manhattan"
Go over to The Other Side of the Tracks and see what I put down as my location.
We have some people out here who sound a lot like you. Ever heard of Beverly Hills and San Marino? Good God Pig, let's not be a snob about it.
Also Arcadia
Ah Arcadia, home of the Santa Anits Race Track, the Arboretum, The Arcadia Mall, Arcadia High School and home of Sea Beach Fred. What could be finer?
All of those are independent cities, like the Brooklyn was before the occupation began 104 years ago.
Go over to The Other Side of the Tracks and see what I put down as my location.
lol.....yeah I know, I know: "Occupied Brooklyn"
In seriousness though, I wonder what would have happened if Brooklyn or Queens were never annexed to "the city". I do believe that Nassau was part of Queens 100 years ago. The current Nassau townships opted out of becoming part of NYC. Can you imagine if Nassau was part of NYC? I think Nassau developed nicer than Queens, so maybe it would have been better if it had never been annexed to NYC. But then you have the problem of things like the subway. You think it's bad now in Queens (too few lines)? I wonder if it would have been worse if Queens wasn't part of NYC.
As for Brooklyn, I think it lost it's whole identity by becoming part of NYC. Again I wonder if all the delapitation of Brooklyn would have happened if it would have remained it's own city. I really believe Brooklyn is the most interesting outer bourough architecually (oh sorry.....occupied bourough)....is that because a lot of the buildings were built before it became NYC? As it stands, I believe that Brooklyn, if still it's own city, would still be in the top 10 of the nations most populous cities.
Brooklyn has the Bridge, Coney Island, Prospect Park, and, if you will indulge me, the Sea Beach. But I believe Brooklyn lost its true identity and heart when the Dodgers left town after the 1957 baseball season. The Dodgers and Brooklyn were synonomous.
The unification of the city was driven by infrastructure needs. Back then, water was a major issue; mass transit was another. Brooklyn wanted better connections to Manhattan and vice versa.
Brooklyn was an important genuine city in its own right. A perhaps unintended consequence of the unification was an eclipse of place-ness. Once Seth Low of Brooklyn became Mayor of NEW YORK, who cares about Brooklyn? The political center moved away from Court Street over to the other side of the Brooklyn Bridge. Brooklyn lost its 'Brooklyn first-ness'.
My own private view is to dissolve the city, with each of the 5 boros becoming independent cities, leaving a number of infrastructure districts behind to manage the bridges, water, sewers, and especially, the subways. Watch the Nassau County Executive try to bypass the Mayors of Queens and Brooklyn when he tries to cut a deal with the Mayor of Manhattan about his constituent's complaints about the LIRR.
I'd close all city streets into/out of Nassau. Let them take the Belt or LIE.
But I believe Brooklyn lost its true identity and heart when the Dodgers left town after the 1957 baseball season. The Dodgers and Brooklyn were synonomous.
I think that was the "final" blow. Brooklyn began falling since it became a part of NYC, but it was straight downhill after the Dodgers left.
If NYC were broken into boroughs, here is what the top cities would become.
1) Los Angeles, Calif. 3,694,820
2) Chicago, Ill. 2,896,016
3) Brooklyn, NY. 2,465,326
4) Queens, NY. 2,229,379
5) Houston, Tex. 1,953,631
6) Manhattan, NY. 1,537,195
7) Philadelphia, Pa. 1,517,550
8) Bronx, Ny. 1,332,650
9) Phoenix, Ariz. 1,321,045
10) San Diego, Calif. 1,223,400
...
38) Albuquerque, N.M. 448,607
39) Staten Island 443,728
40) Kansas City, Mo 441,545
Personally though, I'm wondering when NYC is going to annex the burough of Miami. (pop. 362,470)
It's pretty ironic that both Brooklyn and Queens would beat out the "real" NY of Manhattan, if NY was to be broken up....
In addition it's amazing that 4 out of 5 of NY's parts would still be in the top ten even if NY was to be broken up. AND Brooklyn and Queens combined together would beat out both LA and Chicago individually! And those are big cities!
I seem to remember a sign from the credits of "Welcome Back Kotter" that stated: "WELCOME TO BROOKLYN, 4TH LARGEST CITY IN AMERICA Hon. Sebastian Lowe, President", you mean Brooklyns population has increased since the 70s or has Queens dropped?
Peace,
ANDEE
"Hon. Sebastian Lowe, President"
Brooklyn Borough President was Sebastian Leone.
Brooklyn had a population in the 1950's of 2,650,000. It then fell I guess and now it is moving back up thanks to yuppies and young couples moving in and improving the neighborhoods. What Brooklyn really needs is a professional sports team. That would give the borough real identity.
Flushing, Queens definately.The number 7 runs very frequently with peak hour expresses. Alot of Queens bus routes originate or go through Flushing. Shopping is abundant and cheap, especially if you like asian stuff (like I do). There's alot of new development in the area. Also the LIRR from Flushing is a quick alternative to the 7.
Just watch out for the dragon clips (sorry I couldn't help it!).
[Just watch out for the dragon clips (sorry I couldn't help it!).]
Hey, John. Since you like Flushing so much, have you ever considered moving there? A couple of SubTalkers either live in or near Flushing, BTW.
And there's also the Mets. Come on QT7, you're slipping a little.
Hey Fred, they took two of three from the Dodgers and three of four from the Padres. Shut out the Dodgers twice to boot.
And Steve I was there for the third game, a 2-0 win. John D'Amico pitched a hell of a game and Mo hit a dinger. Plus the Mets threw me a few balls during BP. A couple of pathetic Dodger fans even asked me to loan them my shirt and hat so they could pretend they were Mets fans. I laughed and told them kindly to take a hike.
and the Yankees are Hot
So are the Red Sox.:-)
That's OK; the last time they won a World Series was about the time my father was born.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. New Utrecht Ave about where 14th Ave crosses it, just far enough away from the el so that you have some privacy, but still close enough to hear and see the glorious rumbling of the West End line. I think this is Bensonhurst, maybe Boro Park.
Myrtle Ave would be an alternative, where Bushwick becomes Ridgewood. One of the side streets up or down from Jamaica Ave would also be satisfactory.
Of course, only us pervert railfans would WANT to live in a place overlooking an el.
All of my favorite neighborhoods are outside of Manhattan!
But since this is related to moving, you might want to try some up-an-coming 'hoods in Brooklyn like Prospect Heights, Sunset Park, or the more scenic Sheepshead Bay. Also, a new area is under construction right now called Gateway Estates just east of Starrett City, so you might want to investigate that as well.
Also depends on what type of dwelling your talking about: single-family detached, or semi-detached and/or an apartment?
Yeah Sunset Park is nice too, but the N train at 8th avenue doesn't come that often. :-(
Leaving monetary considerations aside:
I like Bayside, Little Neck, Maspeth, Glendale, Park Slope, Inwood, Vinegar Hill (Brooklyn), Riverdale, St. George, and Tottenville. All are along major transit routes.
Bay Ridge, where I spent 35 years, has slipped a bit, I'm afraid, but I still like it too.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, Maspeth and Glendale AREN'T along major transit routes. But I still like 'em.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bensonhurst,Brooklyn is pretty good. Its safe, the rent is not so expensive, plus you have the B,M,N,F trains within walking distance. But if you have a car, parking is pretty hard to find.
Excellent...Im looking for an apartment, i refuse to drive, and transit access is a MUST. I am looking at:
Sunset Park/Boro Park/Bensonhurst
Bay Ridge
Riverdale
and maybe some other places
Cobble Hill/Carrol Gardens are excellent neighborhoods. Quiet, friendly neighborhoods of brownstones, decent schools, excellent restaraunts and shopping. Parking isn't too bad and easy access to the BQE and the Brooklyn Bridge. You can even catch a yellow cab on Clinton Street any time of night. F train isn't my favorite, but it at least it usually rolls by frequently enough. Most apartments are a floor or two of someone's brownstone. Rents aren't terribly cheap, but it isn't the heights, either. If you look West on the other side of the BQE, or East of Hoyt, or South of Fourth Street, Rents are a bit lower, and the houses aren't quite as charming, but I don't think crime is a real problem until you are close to the Red Hook projects. Boreum Hill is worth looking at too.
Henry Street, President Street and where I was a toddler, Union Street. There is an Italian restaurant nearby that serves terrific linguine and clam sauce.
While the new trendy restaraunts have largly taken over the neighborhood (not that I'm complaining) there are still a good half-dozen great Italian restaraunts in the neighborhoods. Vinny's, Red Rose, Marco Pollo are the ones I can recall off the top of my head. Got to love the huge front yards on 2nd st, Carrol, President, and Union. For some reason people on Union aren't quite the gardeners as on the others (maybe because it is a heavier trafficked road). I think we have better eats than the heights now.
Keith Wright, eh? Wow! A non Italian living in that neighborhood. When I was a kid that area was all Italian. Good to know some of the other ethnic strains are moving into these former homogenous areas. It's still nice to have a distinctive ethnic neighborhood but 100% of it is not too cool the way I look at it. And since you like Italian food, we will just call you an honorary Dago. OK?
Carroll Gardens has majorly gentrified. Prices on the brownstones are starting to bob up over a million. It's a lot like Park Slope, though luckily the old-timers have not all been chased out. If it weren't for the projects, Red Hook would be falling to an onslaught of yuppies. I don't give it long regardless.
I very much doubt that the bulk of Red Hook will become heavily gentrified unless someone extends some decent public transportation there. Think how much fun it must be to wait for the B61 bus at night in the dead of winter with the kind of wind you only get on the waterfront. That said, if the gentrification results in some public transportation improvements, then by all means.
I don't think the projects are any kind of barrier to gentrification. There's projects a block away from Smith St. in Brooklyn, and that area is about as gentrified as you can get.
which neighborhood is the most "trainst frendly"..??
old town pasadena ca.""the posada"" will boast of GOLD LINE 2
downtown UNION STATION in a few years
Once upon a time (back in the '60's)
I went to Los Angeles by train from San Diego
(I was in the Navy)
I got off the train....
I looked around...
And I asked a cab driver, "WHERE's THE CITY?"
At least when someone gets off a train at NeW York Penn
there can be no question where the city is!
ELIAS
As far as your post goes, you are right. There is no comparison between New York and Los Angeles as far as a city is concerned. I'm glad you stopped there, though, because had you started making references to the rest of the Los Angeles Metropolitan area of beautiful sunny California, you would have started a feud. Glad you didn't. Therefore, I can say I agree with your statement as it stands.
"because had you started making references to the rest of the Los Angeles Metropolitan area of beautiful sunny California, you would have started a feud."
I never really got to see the beaches or much of anything else. I came up on a weekend pass, had no car, had no clues about getting around in LA, and was simply looking to find a downtown city to visit.
I drove up one other time with a bunc of sailors and we spent the day in Disneyland. but other than that, I have no ohter knowledge of LA, except to say "Waht City?" (And *that* was back in the '60s--- it would not suprise me if they will still growing cabbages on main street.)
Elias (Growing Mushrooms in un used subway tunnels)
I actually did spend a very fun car-free day in Los Angeles once...the only time I've ever been there in fact. I flew into LAX, and rode the bus to the Green Line light rail, rode that to the Blue Line to the Red Line subway. I rode the Wilshire Boulevard branch to its end and took bus further on Wilshire to the La Brea tar pits. The Los Angeles County Museum of Art is at the same park. I then rode the transit back downtown. If I'd had more time I would have checked out Little Tokyo and Pueblo de Los Angeles. I would have ridden the Angel's Flight, but it was closed when I was there. The next morning I took a train down the coast to San Diego. I got to ride Amtrak and San Diego's Coaster commuter train.
Mark
And where were these lines in the '60s?
Elias : )
Ripped up in the name of progress, of course!
Mark
Then Elias, you must come back again. We have beautiful mountains and beaches and some of the lovliest looking girls in the world. And now we have some great neighborhoods that are trendy with great restaurants and entertainment. Disneyland, Knott's Berry Farm, Magic Mountain, too.
That is if you can see more then 2 blocks in the smog
Bob, Bob, Bob, why don't you tape that comment of yours and mail it in. Today after showers we had sunny weather with some white puffy clouds and about 70 degrees. Very salubrious, like it always is out here.
wait a minute you could do that with the old pacific electric
system !! did you disbark at the downtown union station in
los angeles ??
The real question here is what do you want?
Nearby transit, I see - but it should be good transit on a good stable well served line.
what else is important though? do you care what sorta of people will be your neighbors? how long your commute will be? if there's someplace you can do laundry at 4AM if you work odd hours? and what is your price range for how much space?
it's all stuff to be considered.
for the most part, sunnyside is a pretty good place to be: why do you want to move out?
if possible, i say find a place to live that is close to 2 train lines. this way, if one is dead and has a GO, you can always just take the other. if you live way out at the end of a line, and there's some GO on it that sucks, you're about as screwed as it gets.
My favorite neighborhoods (plural):
Bayside-Oakland Gardens: 1,000 acres of beautiful parkland all around you. LIRR Port Washington Branch, Q12 and Springfield Blvd. bus service, QM1 Express Bus, within 15 minutes of Queens Village LIRR station on the main line.
Glen Oaks is nice and affordable but very boring (and the Q46 and N25 are your only links to civilization).
Bay Ridge (covered elsewhere in this thread).
Northern Bronx - IND and IRT service, lots of parkland, access to Lehmann College, access to Metro-North service.
Riverdale (Good Metro-North and bus service)
Will NJT be purchasing any new MU Cars anytime soon??
I think that may be a dead issue as the trend on NJT is toward locomotive propelled trains. MU cars are treated as locomotives by the FRA, and must be inspected and tested every number of days (blue card inspections). An eight cars trains of MUs there will be eight set of inspections. On a locomotive propelled train, only the locomotive gets inspected.
NJT is the only electric commuter railroad anywheer that has this FRA-inspection phobia of MU's. Even NICTD and Metr Electric buy and will continue to buy EMU's.
The last of the Arrow III's were delivered in 1978. Delivery of the Arrow III's began immediately after the Arrow II's were delivered, when the 3,000 V DC, was being converted into a more efficient AC electrification.
To this point, NJT has shown no more interest in Arrow MU's but it has been geared toward locomotive-hauled coaches.
During the Subtalk hiatus, there were some articles in the press about how certain people want to connect the Atlantic Branch up to the Cranberry tunnel (never mind the problems with fitting LIRR trains thru the tunnels, or where the trains would terminate). As I recall, it was estimated that this would accomodate about two-thirds fewer LI people than the Fulton St. IND presently serves, with the Brooklyn and Queens people left out in the cold to get into the city by other means. This was dubbed 'grand theft subway'.
Who are these jokers? I have heard of some genuinely moronic proposals, but this one takes the cake. What's next: converting the Lex to an automobile expressway for Westchester commuters?
[During the Subtalk hiatus, there were some articles in the press about how certain people want to connect the Atlantic Branch up to the Cranberry tunnel (never mind the problems with fitting LIRR trains thru the tunnels, or where the trains would terminate). As I recall, it was estimated that this would accomodate about two-thirds fewer LI people than the Fulton St. IND presently serves, with the Brooklyn and Queens people left out in the cold to get into the city by other means. This was dubbed 'grand theft subway'.]
Aside from the drawbacks that Mark already mentioned, there's also the bigger picture: We NYC residents already oversubsidize the rest of the state through (1) our income taxes; (2) the loss of the non-resident income (or "commuter") tax; and (3) disparate transit subsidies. NOW we're being told to give up our subway system to wealthy Long Islanders?! No!!!
I say we should fight to keep our subways!! Join the resistance!! Down with suburban oppression of city-dwellers!!
;-)
How does the NYC income tax subsidise the rest of NYS? By the way, I'd gladly trade my LI property taxes for NYC's income tax!!!
[How does the NYC income tax subsidise the rest of NYS?]
Very simply: We pay far more in state taxes than we get back in state funding for services such as schools, police, sanitation, transportation, etc. In other words, we pay our own fair share PLUS part of everybody else's share - always have, always will.
On top of that, we pay an extra quarter-percent sales tax which, by law, is supposed to be set aside for public transportation. However, Governor George started raiding NYC Transit's portion of the sales tax in 1995 (thus forcing the $1.50 fare) to punish the city for not voting for him in the 1994 election, and still refuses to release them.
["What's next: converting the Lex to an automobile expressway for Westchester commuters?"]
That WOULD alleviate some of the traffic on the FDR and the Avenues.
It is a stupid proposal that will never happen. Converting the A/C Cranberry line to LIRR would require tunnel changes, signal changes, track changes and would probably cost more than building a new tunnel.
Personally I think LIRR to GCT is way more important than Lower Manhattan access as the subways from Atlantic avenue (1,2,4,5,N,R,B,Q,M) are quite enough to handle.
Besides LIRR access to GCT is already planned for, the tunnels are there for the most part.
I even wrote to Manhattan Borough President Virginia Fields, telling her that the proposed takeover of the 8th Ave. subway route by the LIRR was not going to happen because the LIRR cars would not fit in the tunnels, that there was already a tunnel built specifically for the LIRR across the East River ( the lower level of the 63rd St. tunnel ), and that the FRA would not allow the LIRR and the subway to be in such close proximity for safety reasons. I also suggested that she take a look at the plans for the IND Second system, since there could be something there to improve service for her constituents in the long run. Yes, that is a long shot, but the 1969 METS were a surprise to everybody when they won the pennant.
Ah yes, the '69 Mets. I remember them well. Talk about NYC going bananas when they won it all....
Today at about 7:00Pm i was walking on Glenwood Road and when i got ot E 98 st i look over into Canarise Yard and Saw 2 R143 Cars # 8101-09 & # 8121-32 sitting side By sidethey are Going on Tomorrow on Monday Service
We also saw a trainset alongside the fence, ordered as followed (north motor first) 8116-8115-8114-8113-8109-8110-8111-8112
and alongside it (north motor first) 8108-8107-8106-8105, could not see what the other four cars were.
AND in East New York Yard, 8117-8118-8119-8120 was seen sitting among the R40Ms and R42s.
wayne
8108-8107-8106-8105 were 4 out of the first 8 MU's to debut on the L. this means that the original train isn't in service. Where are 8101 thru 8104?
Maybe it was layed up for the day/weekend. Im sure itll be out and running soon.
I did rode the original train lead car #8104-#8101/#8105-#8108 end car this past thursday heading home.
Peace
David
Those were probably the four cars I couldn't see the numbers of. I could only see the rooftops.
wayne
It seems that the HEIGHT= and WIDTH= tags on the banner are incorrect, resulting in the whole page shifting downwards when you go back and forth with the arrows or with a click thru link. Can this be fixed?
Another idea for saving bandwidth on the subtalk main page -- if you remove the graphic, and simply altered the script to show only the first msg in a thread (a la NYCrail), you will save a lot of bandwidth in $$$
Alicia
Another idea for saving bandwidth on the subtalk main page -- if you remove the graphic, and simply altered the script to show only the first msg in a thread (a la NYCrail), you will save a lot of bandwidth in $$$
Switch to compressed listing style, because that is what you describe.
I fixed the height/width tags.
As for the graphic, I don't think it's really necessary to remove it-- it "brands" the site, someone spent a lot of time making it, it looks nice, and once you've seen it once you've cached it anyway. I
According to SEPTA's website, the Market-Frankford Line in West Philly is going to continue using shuttle buses in place of trains on weekends at least through the end of next month, with no service at all on Memorial Day weekend. Does anyone know if or when regular weekend El service will resume in West Philly? Before the construction started on the West Philly El, I heard or read somewhere that the bulk of the construction was going to take place at night, thus avoiding service interuptions. Since I visit my friends in West Philly on weekends, I find the El shutdown a major inconvenience. As a result, I've been driving to West Philly to see my friends. I don't mind driving, in fact, I've driven to my friends' a few times when the trains were running on weekends, but I prefer taking the train most of the time.
Cars 6471-75 and 6496-6500 have arrived at East 180th St as of this morning.
This means that nearly all of the cars that have been in dead storage for the last year have now been repaired and will make their debut in service at some future time.
Of the cars that still need to be modified, this leaves Cars 6441-6460 and 6491-95, which are unaccounted for.
-Stef
These trains are now testing for service:
6361-65 and 6436-40
6366-70 and 6376-80
6371-75 and 6386-90
6381-85 and 6396-6400
These 4 Trains are testing for #5 Service.
-Stef
Isn't the 6396 set the one that doesn't have the black on the cab car?
Nope. It is 6395.
Does anyone know why it's missing it?
A set with 6348 in it was testing today on the downtown express on the 7th ave line. I saw it do sim stops at 42st except the 5 on the Uptown Express was blocking it and I only saw 6348.
That train is in revenue service, but they could be doing something with it.... The question is what? Testing modified brakes perhaps?
-Stef
That would be 6341-50. And yes Stef you are correct, that train is in revenue service but Ill believe they are testing the regenerative brake cut-out on that train. It was road testing yesterday as it headed into President southbound.
Hi all!! I need some help...I just moved to Park Slope this weekend and i'm trying to figure out what is the closest subway station to me. My apartment is located on 19th Street (between 5th & 6th Ave.). I went for a walk this afternoon and I saw the Prospect Avenue station for the N, R, & M. However, this station is a pretty good distance from my apartment. Does the F stop anywhere near me? I was looking at the subway map and saw that the F stops at 15th street and 7th Avenue. I didn't try and find these stations during my walk though. Are any of these two stops on the F any closer to me? or is Prospect Ave station on the N & R my best bet? Thanks to anyone who can help me out.
The closest station to you is indeed Prospect Av on the M/N/R lines.
The closest F stations to you are at 15th St and Prospect Park West (equivalent to 9th Av in Park Slope), and on 9th Street at either 7th Avenue or 4th Avenue.
Don't be afraid to use the buses {not to get off topic with rail talk.} If you don't need to take a bus after you get off the subway wherever you are going then take the B63 or B67 {B63 is more frequent} to a major stop like Atlantic Ave/Pacific St. Otherwise you have to walk to one of the stations you mentioned. I know very well the area in which you are. If you live near 4th or 7th Aves you have the subway right there, but you are right in the middle and that's why they supply you with the B63, which takes you to a major subway complex at Atlantic.
Walk downhill to the BMT, then walk downhill from the IND on the way back.
Gravity is your friend!
The R weekend service is the most atrocious I can remember, and that's over 40 years of remembering.
There is no through service to 95th Street...you have to wait for a shuttle at 59th Street. Of course there is only ONE trainset on the shuttle and if you just missed a shuttle? 20 minute wait.
Is there any hope of restored weekend service soon, or is this going to morph into a permanent affair?
MTA's message to Bay Ridgeites:
"Buy a car"
www.forgotten-ny.com
SB N trains are operating over the bridge. I guess someone noticed a few months ago that there was no need for N, Q, and R trains to all run over the bridge, so recent incantations of that GO have had the R cut into two pieces. Not that that's any consolation to those who have to use those two pieces! And R service would certainly be helpful NB, particularly through the tunnel, which now has one quarter the service it should have.
This was all posted online in advance, BTW. Well, except that the R shuttle would be a single train.
what is the N like on saturday ???
Well the N during the day Saturday and into the evening goes pretty much regular service, serving City Hall, Rector, Whitehall, and all stops to Kings Highway and 86th Street in Brooklyn. Though late at night, from time to time due to trackwork (G.O.s), they would be rerouted over the Manhattan Bridge (usually one way, i.e. Manhattan-bound still operates via the Montague Tunnel, serving all stops downtown, while Brooklyn-bounds may go over the bridge, and vice versa). The Rs operate in 2 sections, shuttles from 59th-4th Ave Brooklyn to Bay Ridge-95th, and Canal St to 71-Continental Ave. (After discharging at Canal the Rs relay just north of City Hall Yard).
If they cut the W back to 36th St. from Pacific, they could run the R shuttle much more frequently.
How would that help? It is the single tracking that makes it slow combined with the fact that the N an R have to crossover a switch and for the R that whole area is slow speed plus the speed restriction of single tracking.
It is possible to do 15 minutes if you make a point of NOT making connenction between the N and R (something ingrained in Murphy tower)and spend almost no time in the terminal not even the one minute before departure. They shouldn't even make the C/r change position to save a few more seconds. As they say every second counts.
The R shuttle could use the junction north of 36th St. to turn trains if the espress tracks weren't blocked by W trains coming from Pacific St. You can only cross over from north to south above Pacific on the express tracks.
Turning the W at 36th St. allows the R train to run more than a single track shuttle.
They did something like that for another GO. For at least one of the GOs there was work south of 59 making you stuck with the single track.
The W isn't running this weekend at all. The Q is running on the West End.
I don't know if all trains were doing this, but both Q trains I rode (one in each direction) ran local on 4th Avenue. (The express tracks weren't taped off, though.) That would seem to give the R the option of relaying north of 36th.
Then I can't explain why they limited the R shuttle to one track/one train from 59th to 95th, unless the switches north of 36th St. were not available for use.
To me,there's no doubt this is gonna go on for a very long time.the reason? they are doing work at Dekalb Ave.they could also be doing something at cortlandt St to prepare it for its reopening.so untill its all set and done,expect this to continue.although i agree its ridiculous.if the W is not gonna run,they should have the R run from Pacific St-95th St instead of to 59th st.although if you dont wanna wait for 20mins for the shuttle to come back,go up to the street and take the B63 bus,you'll get to where you wanna go long before the shutlle makes it back to 59th st.and the B63 is detoured over 4th from 60th to 95th so its no big deal
When the Acela hit 168 Mph, where was this done at and what trainset was it?
It was done on the Pueblo, CO test track. My guess is that test trainset one (2000, 3402, 3502, 3503, 3500, 3505, 3400, 2002) was the one that did it.
You are right.
Chaohwa
Jeez, that's only 4 mph faster than the 1968 Metroliners. Think they could have done better in 20 years. The Metroliners also hit that speed on the NEC, not some lousey test track.
Well. You get speed by dropping weight, which raises the critical speed of the trucks up. High weight = lower critical speed = lower top speed. Since you can't run at speed with unstable trucks, you need to be able to have a stable truck. Physics dictates that the higher the weight, the lower the speed at which the truck becomes unstable is. There's no way around this, it happens with *everything* in the world (which explains in part why my bike, at 600lbs starts to lose it's stability at 100mph, whereas a crotchrocket, despite a much steeper rake, is still stable at that speed). Easiest way to make the acela run faster is to drop 20,000 lbs per car. Then you'd be able to safely sustain much higher speeds. It's that simple. unless the acela goes on a diet, you won't see faster than 150mph speeds with it in service.
It's interesting to note, the TGV, with a considerably lighter carbody design, is stable to speeds of well over 200mph, without the need for any yaw dampers.
I'm curious as to if the Acela can even sustain 150mph contnuously, or if it reaches into the short time overloads on the locos. Or what effect a mild (2%) grade would do to the cars at that speed. I suspect it's stretching it, and that's part of the reason speeds below NY are still so slow.
Ok Why would the Acela not be able to sustain 150 mph, isn't that what the Train is Made for. It has TGV Pupulsion system which allows those speeds.
Phil, for once your post makes you sound like you know what you are talking about. I am humbled by your expertise.
I share your concern that the Acela is too heavy. However, I believe truck stability is a complex issue where weight is only a part of the equation. Am I correct in thinking that the issue is one of the center of gravity rather than weight?
Let's take an example. HAA hoppers (two-axle, 50-tonne coal wagons) as used by EWS in England are stable at 45mph when not loaded, but are stable at 60mph when loaded. The additional weight anchors down the wheels and prevents any slight deviation from the ideal track geometry from lifting the car off the track. By loading up the HAA, in fact center of gravity is raised, but obviously the effect of having a heavy axle load is balanced by the effect of the raised center of gravity. (i.e. lift-off versus spin-off types of derailment risks).
I believe the reason the Acela can't go fast isn't due to its truck stability. If its trucks are unstable or poorly riding, that is because the truck manufacturers didn't design them that well. They had this issue with the GNER Mk.IV's operating in England today. SiG (an Italian firm) designed the trucks. I suspect the reason Acela can't get much faster than about 160mph even when driven hard is because it's simply too much weight to be pushed around; the motors are maxed out.
Question: Did they have to electrify the test track at Pubelo? If so, at what voltage and how long was the test track?
Alicia
I share your concern that the Acela is too heavy. However, I believe truck stability is a complex issue where weight is only a part of the equation. Am I correct in thinking that the issue is one of the center of gravity rather than weight?
It's a lot of factors, and truck dynamics aren't totally understood anyway, IIRC. Wheelbase of the truck affects it, spring setups do, weight does, truck location, truck type, unsprung weight.
The TGV's second most distinguishing feature is that the traction motors are body mounted, thus the unsprung weight of power trucks is quite low.
Let's take an example. HAA hoppers (two-axle, 50-tonne coal wagons) as used by EWS in England are stable at 45mph when not loaded, but are stable at 60mph when loaded. The additional weight anchors down the wheels and prevents any slight deviation from the ideal track geometry from lifting the car off the track.
Partly, because I'm, willing to bet, the springs are designed for loaded cars, than unloaded ones. They're likely too 'hard' for unloaded cars, and this isn't surprising when you consider the weight difference between load and no load.
By loading up the HAA, in fact center of gravity is raised, but obviously the effect of having a heavy axle load is balanced by the effect of the raised center of gravity. (i.e. lift-off versus spin-off types of derailment risks).
It goes up. If it goes too high, i.e. surperliners, etc, it gets tipsy too. Generally, low c.o.g. is a good thing, though too low can cause problems. part of why the talgo is able to curve at high speeds safely is the lower c.o.g. compared with other types.
I believe the reason the Acela can't go fast isn't due to its truck stability. If its trucks are unstable or poorly riding, that is because the truck manufacturers didn't design them that well.
One can only make a truck do so much! I'm dissapointed that the Acela's trucks aren't radial types, as they proved to be very good in the X-2000 tests. Also, traditionally, French RR cars have not taken to US track very well..... The French loco tests on Amtrak went poorly, and IIRC, the RTLs had issues too.
They had this issue with the GNER Mk.IV's operating in England today. SiG (an Italian firm) designed the trucks. I suspect the reason Acela can't get much faster than about 160mph even when driven hard is because it's simply too much weight to be pushed around; the motors are maxed out.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if 150mph running cuts into the Acela's 1 hour limit at least under certain conditions. I bet the acela could't maintain 150mph on a typical LGV, with the 3% and 4% grades and all. Though it wouldn't be allowed to run on one anyway.
Question: Did they have to electrify the test track at Pubelo? If so, at what voltage and how long was the test track?
The track has long been electric, I believe they can supply any voltage/frequency they want to it.
Quoting from the Transportation Technology Center's website, which operates the 13.5 mile Railroad Test Track: "The RTT's catenary system can deliver a single-phase, 60 Hz alternating current at 12.5, 25, or 50 kV, in a single or dual voltage condition. The contact wire height is currently set a nominal 22 feet, 6 inch height, but can be adjusted to simulate tunnel or bridge conditions. It is also possible to energize the system with DC power."
In addition, they have a 9.1 mile transit track with third rail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The News has a story today in which he is quoted as saying in a company brochure that the company's subway cars "don't break down" and that they "last a long time and they're easy to maintain."
The story sounds like the two other companies seeking the R-160 contract, Bombardier and Alstom, are trying to help scuttle someone they believe is leaning towards Kawaski (based on the R-142 deliveries so far on the 6 versus the 2 and the 5, it seems like Hoffman has reality on his side).
The story then goes on to say on the R-160 lobbying front:
Alstom has hired former Sen. Al D'Amato, Pataki's political patron. Bombardier is being advised by Pataki's former law partner, William Plunkett. Kawasaki is working with former state GOP chairman William Powers, who helped steer Pataki's 1994 and 1998 campaigns.
Of course, the story doesn't say when the bid will be awarded -- if it's after Jan. 1, then you could have Cuomo or McCall in there and a new MTA chairman (which would mean all three companies would have to go out and hire Democratic lobbyists, of course). Anyway, it should make for an interesting time until the final decision is made.
Here you have a public official who actually wants to provide a public service by getting the best subway car, rather than awarding public dollars to whoever makes the most campaign contributions. And he is undermined and criticized by politicians. This just shows the conditions quality public managers must work in. And why there are so few of them.
We just had delivery of new cars. The Kawasakis outperformed the Bombardiers. That's all that should matter.
The good news is that if the R-160 contract is big enough to be worth a lot of lobbying, there will finally come a nice expansion of the subway fleet!
Click here.
-Robert King
Don't be stupid, be a smartie, come and join the Nazi party!
Mel Brook's only line in The Producers.
Ick!! A BUS!!!
Click here.
-Robert King
Is that Toronto?
Definitely.
I didn't think it was Branford.
Unfortunately, no trolley museum has that kind of complicated track intersection for streetcars to drive over. It's really one of the most interesting pieces of urban streetcar systems, especially to ride over, that can't be reproduced at a museum without huge expenses etc...
-Robert King
Definitely. Actually, that's one thing I neglected to mention in the new pictures thread I just posted is another difference between 4149's Guinness adwrap and 4052's are the TTC logos. The one on 4149 is tiny and hidden way down there while 4052's is huge but properly centred on that pannel. The picture here of 4134 beside the Upper Canada Breweries truck is quite by accident. At the time I was annoyed about the truck cluttering the background but now it's kind of cute to have the streetcar posed with 'the competition'...
Enjoy the pictures!
-Robert King
I prefer a Sam Adams on draft, but what the hey!
;-D
Robert, I see you found a way against the remote loading rules of free webpages. Just put the image on a webpage and have the image take up most of the page.
Recently I was informed that a pair of M-7s is now on the property at Hillside Maintenance Complex. Is there anyone here who may work for the LIRR who can confirm this?
I don't work for the LIRR, but a friend of mine does. He told me that they are inside Hillslide Facility where all the LIRR big shots were probably gawking, inspecting and sniffing every inch of the trainset.
They were given a "tour" of the electried territory bracketed by two DM-30's for clearance testing. They also shown their new faces in the bowels of Penn Station, but not sure if they went to Flatbush Ave. Not sure if those diesels are restricted from the "el".
They'll stay put until more trainsets arrive then they can be run MU so they won't gap out. Stay tuned to this board. If more M-7's show, you'll hear it here soon enough.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hmm! I was wondering if the DM's are restricted from the Atlantic Branch. Actually, the answer is yes. DM's are restricted along with the others west of Dunton. The only diesel that can run there is the SW1001's which are shorter than the MP15's, and has far lesser weight.
IIRC, weight isn't the issue - it's size. The DM's are simply too big to fit. Supposedly, the El on the Flatbush line was built to support the weight of freight and locos, as there were plans to use the street level of FBA as a freight termial at one time...
The LIRR blew it, IMHO with the DE/DMs. They're big, overweight, unreliable, and can't go everywhere in the system. Commet cars and rebuilt units, like NJT has, would have done the same job for a fraction of the cost.
Which part of the Atlantic Branch are you referring to?
So the LIRR has begun installation of square wheels?
-Hank
Thanks for the good word :-)
Recently while working an RDO/overtime on the Q Express out of Brighton Beach I spotted North Division R-40s on the Q Express (the North Div. 40s are the 4400s). I have also seen a few showing up on the N line. I guess with the R-143s coming on the railroad in the North, I see now where the slants of the North will be heading. Does anyone know where the R-40Ms and 42s are going to be heading when the R-143s start becoming the regular on the L? I heard rumor they too may be heading to the South.
You mean Eastern division
the only #4400's that i have seen on the "N" and "Q" are these:
4400-4401
4402-4403
4415-4416
4404-4405
would be nice to see more though.
Add #4398-4399 and 4408-4409 to that list.
wayne
If the R-143s start being accepted into the system, then count on seeing more of the slants.
Probably down to the Southern Divison too. They are probably most familiar with the equipment. R40, R40M, R42 are alike and Coney Island has R40Ms/R42s from the M Line housed there most of the time too. So with the addition of R4xx trains from East New York, they can send some R68s to Concourse or R32s to Jamaica, Pitkin, and 207th.
:( ... bye bye R32...
Doesn't Concourse already have enough R68's which already have 224 of them? I would see the R-32's gone, but not the R-68's from Coney Island.
Actually, I meant has them. Sorry for my bad english!
I wouldn't be so quick to doom the R32. This is all part of the ripple effect caused by the ADD-TO R143 order. The R32 has taken up partial residence on the "R" and even on the "F" lately.
wayen
The R-32's aren't vanishing from the overall subway fleet, but it seems fairly likely they'll be gone from Coney Island in the near future, displaced by the R-40/R-40M/R-42 influx from ENY. I'll miss them, although I don't find them quite as railfan-friendly as others since there's nothing for the second arrival at the window to hold onto. (R-40's aren't much better, but at least there's the emergency brake niche. Just make sure you're holding onto the niche and not the brake cord itself, or your railfanning trip will come to a very abrupt halt.)
Why is it that on A division cars, the emergency brake is in a box, but in B division cars, the cord's exposed dangling?
Some years ago there was a high incidence of cord pulling on A division. I suspect it was people getting bounced around in over crowded cars and grasping for anything and accidentally grabbing the cord. The TAs response was to put those little boxes over the emergency cords. I recall them saying at the time it would be done to all cars. Don't know why they stopped.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's also presumed that people will be less likely to pull cords as pranks if the cords are in the boxes, the opening of which sounds a loud alarm. Whether that actually makes a difference is another matter.
It was also the practice of pickpocket teams to pull the cords on crowded trains, then walk through the packed trains as they waited to recharge, helping themselves to whatever wallets they could swipe.
Here ya go...
http://www.panix.com/~danielc/nyc/pullcord.htm
Why not throw some R-32 to J M Z Lines.
I hate answering a question with a question, but:
TO A PASSENGER, what is the difference between a slant R-40 and a R-32? Yes, I know the R-32 has 6 more seats (if people don't slop over), but other than that, to the average (non-railfan) passenger, they're the same car. They show up, they get you there, they're air conditioned, and they've got the same color scheme inside (except the floors on the refloored R-32s).
David
TO A PASSENGER, what is the difference between a slant R-40 and a R-32? Yes, I know the R-32 has 6 more seats (if people don't slop over), but other than that, to the average (non-railfan) passenger, they're the same car. They show up, they get you there, they're air conditioned, and they've got the same color scheme inside (except the floors on the refloored R-32s).
You are right. Your average rider doesn't realize/care that there are different cars. Even if a R46 rode down the JMZ lines, a small few passengers may do a double-take, but then just sit down and get on with their day and not give it a second thought. Aside from different floors, I don't think MOST of the passengers would really even glance up wheather it be an R32, 38, 40, or 42 rode into their station. Most riders (non-subfans) could tell the difference. I don't think many people look at the trains that closely.
Now for a railfan on the otherhand....any deviation from the norm is cool.
Most riders (non-subfans) could tell the difference. I don't think many people look at the trains that closely.
I meant most riders couldn't tell the difference.
Agreed. This past weekend, with no 3 service and 5 trains running express on the West Side, people thought the 5 Redbirds were 3 trains, even though the 3 hasn't run anything but R-62A's for about 15 years.
R-40s have those ass-flattening seats. I'd take an R-32 over them any day, for sitting down purposes.
The R40's have the worst seats! Every so often there is a R40M mixed in with the R42's on the J and M (or L). You can notice the minute you sit down on the train that you have an uncomfortable R40, if you didn't notice on the outside of the train. The 42's seats are no prize either, but they are better than the 40's
I don't think the R-42 seats are shaped any differently from the R-26/28/29/32/33/36/38 seats.
I don't know which I find less comfortable, the R-40/40M seats or the R-142/142A/143 seats.
The R42 seats have the same posterior-accomodating curvature as those on R26 through 38s, although the backs are very short, just as they were with the R40s.
If you're of age, you remember the refurbushed fiberglass seats of the R10s through 26s. These models originally had upholstered foam seats that were replaced around the early sixties due to vandalism. The back was ramrod straight and at a precise ninety-degree angle to the horizontal part, which itself was slightly curved on the 10s, but flat as a pancake everywhere else. There was usually a gap leaving about three inches of wall between the two separate sections.
At least most mainline IRT trains in the sixties and seventies were mixed consists, so if those seats made you too uncomfortable, you just had to go to a car on the train that was an R26 through 36. Of course, no such luxury was available on the 10s and 16s.
THe seats in the R40's are very flat and short:
The R42's are more curved, but short like the R40's, so not as comfortable as the preR40 cars:
Some of us (the shorter ones, probably) don't find the short backs any less comfortable than the tall backs.
In any case, to complete the comparison, here are an R-32 and an R-36.
Some of us (the shorter ones, probably) don't find the short backs any less comfortable than the tall backs.
lol...I'm fairly tall, so I guess that is why the 42's bother me a bit, but I think everyone finds the 40's uncomfortable....
By the way I notice on your R32 photo seats they replaced part of the seat with the seat of an unrebuilt car. They must have a bunch of them lying around. I remember when the seats were that green-aqua color before they were rebuilt. I think the R38, 40, and 42 were also that color.
That's exactly why I took that picture.
See also another example on a different R-32 car (I identify it as blue this time but it's the same color) and a red Redbird seat.
I'm surprised that you commented on the R-32 seat but not on the much more obvious peculiarity on the R-36. Here it is again. (I'm afraid this car currently resides in the TA's new subaqueous yard.)
and a red Redbird seat.
Ah yes, that pinkish-red seat. I remember them very well on the redbirds, and the R27-30's also had those pinkish seats (although half the time they were covered with graffiti...
I'm surprised that you commented on the R-32 seat but not on the much more obvious peculiarity on the R-36. Here it is again.
That whole car gives me a headache! Is that the only car like that?
It was the only car like that. A very poorly done job; it's only interesting because of its uniqueness.
Of course, the seats of the R-44, R-46, R-68, and R-68A cars are much more comfortable than those currently on the other cars!
- Lyle Goldman
There I must disagree with you. Aside from size problems (they're too narrow for many and too wide for some), I find myself in mild pain after sitting in them for a long time.
The contour on the R-26/28/29/32/33/36/38/42 seat is just perfect.
Of course, the seats of the R-44, R-46, R-68, and R-68A cars are much more comfortable than those currently on the other cars
I really don't know if I like those seats are not. They are comfortable in a way, but I have been on trains and some fourth person idiot tries to squeeze between three people in a section that is only meant for three. By the same token, I hate being squeezed on the long flat bench seating also, and there it happens way more often because who's to say the "bench seating" is meant for 7 or even 10 people. As long as there is an inch of room people try to squeeze in.
Also I don't know if I like the long bench seating better or the alternating seating. Sometimes I'd rather stand than have to crawl over someone to get to the empty, but blocked window seats on the R46 type seating.
Sometimes I like the long seating, and sometimes I like the alternating seating. it depends on the mood I'm in I guess.
I prefer the alternating seating if the train is almost empty. If it's moderately crowded, the all-sideways seating is better since I don't like climbing into or out of the window seat. Trains with alternating seating don't handle large crowds well; they reduce standing capacity and they encourage clumping by the doors.
Alternate seating is great if you get one by the window that faces front, especially when the train goes outside. It doesn't make up for the lack of a railfan window, but it's all you get.
What's bad about alternate seating is people who sit in the aisle seat and leave the window seat vacant, or put all their junk on it. When asked to relinquish the vacant window seat, they'll sometimes let you in, or slide over so you can have the aisle seat. But more often than not, they play deaf- or react with righteous indignation, as if they're being panhandled.
I've witnessed numerous loud arguments provoked by this situation- which is also inherent on buses.
That's the problem with the window seats. You can enter a fairly empty train and sit there and by the time you get off you have to crawl over people who give you a dirty look because you have the nerve to get off at your station! I only sit there if the train is fairly empty. I don't like crawling over people to get that seat if it is avaialble when the train is more full....I rather just stand in the doorway.
I was quite annoyed when the TA decided to place only longitudinal seats in the R-143 cars and the add-on orders. The old IND cars had the same dimensions with more seats. I recall some BMT cars had an isolated 3+2 seat near a car end. However, I also recall that when car 1575 was refitted about 1947, the designer made a big deal about chewing elbow room out of the side wall (putting the window drop on the outside) so that the crosswise seats could be shoved an inch or two out of the aisle. Despite the TA's claims, I still think a 60' B-Division car with the R-9 seating pattern would hold as many total riders as (say) an R-32. On Division B 60-foot equipment, the lack of convenient hand-holds leaves the space between longitudial rows insuffiently used.
Amen to that! Many time I'd sit down on a Slant and I'd find myself sliding right off. Same deal with the R40M. BTW those are the original seats, just painted charcoal grey.
wayne
The R42 seats have a curve thats more uncomfortable than the mini seats on the R62s.
Ya know, befoe all this car shuffling takes place, I'd like to see the TA restore some of the J/Z service cuts which I've had to endure throughout the late 90's. With more cars a-comin', is asking for 8 J/8 Z trains per hour asking too much?
A 25% increase in service on the J? Yeah, I'd say that's a bit much to ask.
Why? It's simply a resumption of service which once existed pre 1995.
it would be nice to see some R42 appear on the "Q" diamond route. That only happened when the Williamsburg bridge was closed for repairs. If the "Q" diamond is getting the #4400's series, lets hope the windows are in better shape than the #4100s,#4200s and #4300s-less scratches on windows would be nice.
They did that in 1999 when the Williamsburg Bridge closed where R-42's returned to the then 6th Ave./Brighton Express Q. I am sure that the N will get those first, then the Q diamond.
When the Z operates during the height of the rush, there is a combined J/Z 5 minute headway. Since the overwelming majority of the J/Z station stairways are positioned at the first or last cars, there is a perception of crowded trains. Actually, the middle cars are underutilized while the first 2 and last 2 cars are generally crowded.
The J/k may not be the most crowded lines in the system, but as a former regular rider they were far from empty or underutilized, and that goes for the M also (north of the Montague tunnel). During the day they are not quite as crowded, but tell that to the jammed rush hour riders.
That was supposed to say J/Z....I don't know where the K came from in my post.
I did not say the J/Z trains were underutilized. I said that on a given train the first 2 and last 2 cars are overutilized and the middle 4 cars were underutilized. If passengers were spread throughout the entire train rather than all squeezed into the cars by the stairways, the comfort level for all passengers would improve.
Oh, I read your post wrong, I understand what you are saying now......
Yes, we saw a number of ex-ENY (Eastern Division) Slants on the "N" and Circle "Q" yesterday, highest number seen was 4414-4415.
wayne
Circle Q? I thought the Circle Q is supposed to be exclusively R68's with some R68A's mixed in.
Not yesterday! Circle "Q" via "W" was FULL of Slants, AND when we got to CI we saw lots of sleeping R68s and R68As. See post #331930 for a sampling of some R40 numbers I spotted out there. Some of the 4400s were among them.
wayne
There is nothing in writing that says the local Q has to be 68's. You do get a slant on it from time to time. I have seen it at least once a month.
I believe only the V has something in writing that says it has to be 100% R46 so people would ride it.
"I believe only the V has something in writing that says it has to be 100% R46 so people would ride it."
People may prefer the R46, but I find it hard to believe they alone will attract more riders to it.
The R46 seat layout is what the public likes. If Jamaica had 68's then the V would be 100% 68's.
If Jamaica had 68's then the V would be 100% 68's
...which would be preferable, I'd say. If the idea was to make the (V) look like an attractive "new" line, then the R68 or R68A is a better choice on both counts. Not gorgeous, but better looking than the R46.
:-) Andrew
I understand that, but I'm not sure that fact will attract any more riders than if the line was made up completely of R32's.
If I serve Correct isn't the M-7's also supposed to be going to the Metro North? Will the M-7's go to New Haven, CT? That means they have to install pantographs for them.
1- yes, to replace the ACMUs (i think thats what they're called)
2- no, the M2s will stay for a while... (rebuilding to be done)
If they were modified for new haven they would be called the M8s or M10s
This may be a silly question, but why did you exclude M9? Is there a logic to the numbering sequence? IE, Odd numbers have a meaning as od evens?
Bill
Even = new haven
Odd = other line using "Metropolitan Commuter" type cars
M7 contract does not state a requirement for overhead 11,000/25,000 Volts AC collection.
>>Will the M-7's go to New Haven, CT? That means they have to install pantographs for them<<
Installing pantographs of M-7's isn't easy as it sounds. The carbody has to support the weight of the pantograph. There also is the electrical wiring and aparatus involved. If the New Haven Division opts for new cars, they'll probably be called M-8's. All New Haven equipment are even numbered (M-2, M-4, M-6). BTW, there is no M-5.
The LIRR and MNRR equipment are odd numbered (M-1, M-1A, M-3, M-3A)and now M-7, (M-7A)?
Bill "Newkirk"
Why no M5 contract?
Because 2 successive New Haven contracts occurred (M4, M6) without an intervening one for 3rd-rail-only cars.
i think the M7s should be M5s
Yes, but that would imply they are older than M-6's.
the R32s are younger than the R36s
Not really. A few R-36 cars were delivered in 1963 (delivery was completed in 1964), while the first R-32s didn't come in until the summer of 1964.
David
well not much younger(any delivery overlap?)
Some of the M7s will be going to Metro-North, but not on the New Haven Line. My guess is they'll be split between the Harlem and Hudson Lines, as well as the LIRR of course. The New Haven Line won't see new cars until 2012. -Nick
Whew. Lots of railfan windows. But thoses damn Diesl with the storm windows blacked out (you can't see a thing)
Amtrak allows the Acela to go 150 mph because they upgraded that part of the NEC, right? Will they upgrade other parts of the NEc also?
Editorial in today's Chicago Tribune: A Second City Revival?
Apparently several large communities are attempting to officially secede from Los Angeles, which would reduce LA's population roughly by half and make Chicago the nation's second-largest city once again.
While this might give Chicago somewhat of an ego boost, the editorial correctly makes the point that running away from urban problems by seceding is no way to create a healthy city. Whith few exceptions, most of these secession movements are organized by wealthy whites who are resentful of their tax money being used to provide social services in poor minority neighborhoods. (Cry me a friggin' river, assholes.)
The idea of Chicago being second-largest would also be sort of a hollow victory for several reasons, since A) it wouldn't really make one bit of difference in the actual quality of life here in Chicago, B) it doesn't take into account the size of the overall metropolitian area, which I believe is a much more important statistic than often-arbitrary municipal boundaries (the LA metro area would still be far larger than Chicago's regardless of how it's divided up -- see chart below), and C) Like it or not, New York and LA remain the culture and media capitols of the country. As lovable as Chicago is, it mostly remains a "fly-over city" for the cultural elites on either coast. And for better or worse, that's just fine with most Chicagoans.
City populations and metro area sizes, based on 1990 census.
I would personally like to see Chicago once again be the second-largest city in the US, but I'd much rather see that happen by Chicago's own continuing growth and vitality than by the breaking up of another city because of elitism and bigotry. But since it's highly unlikely Chicago will ever catch up to New York's size and importance, there's really no point in gloating about being second-largest anyway: Unless you're #1, nobody else really cares where you finish in the race.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Apparently several large communities are attempting to officially secede from Los Angeles, which would reduce LA's population roughly by half and make Chicago the nation's second-largest city once again.
Even if Los Angeles has a larger population, its transit system is a mere ghost in comparison to Chicago's!
While this might give Chicago somewhat of an ego boost, the editorial correctly makes the point that running away from urban problems by seceding is no way to create a healthy city.
Woah, strong statement.
I have always liked the way Chicago as a City dealt with things. The City government seems all-powerful and Daly resembles God. They also don't seem to have much problems expanding O'Hare (compared to say any proposed expansion of BOS or LAX). That's why I like Chicago -- stuff gets done.
I don't think the idea of seceding is not really that big an issue. It shouldn't be that difficult for some enabling legislation to be passed that allows a City to collect an employment tax from those who reside outside the City. Although the idea of American capitalism is to foster interstate (and indeed intercity) commerce, if this kind of equity issues become a problem, it wouldn't be too difficult for city governments to tax those who are not represented -- for example, LA could raise its rates for parking of cars from outside the city, while giving residents' permits away for practically free. They could institute a real estate tax for any employers that provides parking for those from outside LA, with an exemption for every employee that lives within the city. They can get all that money back.
Alicia
And you can count on one hand the metro areas where the suburbanites actualy are taxed so. The counter examples are legion--thus resulting in the increasing pauperization of the urban cores (read people of color) while the outer suburbs get the funds for infrastructure upgrades. See Joel Garreau's Edge City for an uncriticly gleeful description. Look at state funding for suburban commuter rail versus funding for within the city mass transit and situation becomes clear. It is exactly this inequitable allocation of transit funds which was the basis for the LA Bus Riders Union suit against LA MTA which resukted in a consent decree recently sustained by the US Supreme Court. The suit alleged "unequal treatment under the law as a 14th Amendment violation and specificly violation of the Civil Rights Acts.
The diffuse nature of Los Angeles -- vertical instead of horrizonal in all but the downtown area -- and the loss of the property tax base in the San Fernando Valley should a secession movement succeed will have a major effect on the city's economics in relation to its abaility to provide municipal services.
A lot of people who live in the northwestern sections of L.A. do not work either downtown or in what would bew the surviving city limits at all, and a commuter tax imposed by the city would have no effect on them. The legislature would probably be supportive of some sort of assistance plan should a secession move succeed, but how far the lower-income core of Los Angeles would get in getting a bill passed would probably depend on whether or not Davis or Simon (whose Southern California support figures to come from outside the core area) wins this year's guberatorial election.
A lot of people who live in the northwestern sections of L.A. do not work either downtown or in what would bew the surviving city limits at all, and a commuter tax imposed by the city would have no effect on them
If this is really the case about LA, I find it difficult to understand why it is necessary for the suburbs to subsidize the downtown core. Atlanta has all but replaced the big tract of practically useless land between the downtown and the ring road, and the city seems to be investing heavily along the beltway -- reflecting that is where all the commercial activity takes place. I have no problems with that.
If a similar zone of dereliction exists within LA, there's no reason why the city/the suburbs shouldn't "dump" it, provided that people aren't commuting across the boundaries to evade paying their dues...
Alicia
>>> The diffuse nature of Los Angeles -- vertical instead of horrizonal in all but the downtown area – and the loss of the property tax base in the San Fernando Valley should a secession movement succeed will have a major effect on the city's economics in relation to its abaility to provide municipal services. <<<
I think you mean that L.A. is horizontal rather than vertical outside the downtown area, but that can be said about most cities. The serious secession movement is in the San Fernando Valley, which is up scale and what industry it has is mainly high tech. The Hollywood Hills which geographically separate the "Valley" from the "City" with only three freeways and several winding canyon roads connecting the areas makes those in the Valley see themselves as isolated from the seat of power in downtown Los Angeles, and therefore think L.A. is not responsive to their unique problems, concentrating resources on areas with higher crime rates, more unemployment, etc. They think home rule politicians would better serve them.
The second area that wants to secede is the harbor area. If you look at a map, L.A. has one long strip corridor running from the main part of the city down to the harbor. If the harbor area broke away, the tax revenue from the port would make the local area extremely rich and result in very low property tax rates for residents.
The third area is Hollywood. For many years Hollywood was a famous tourist attraction, but the reality was a run down area with high drug usage once you left the superficial glitter of Hollywood Boulevard. There has been a resurgence in Hollywood in the past few years (possibly helped by the Red Line subway), and now the people there are saying L.A. never did anything for us, we had to build our own community, so why shouldn't we govern ourselves.
In order to secede from Los Angeles, elections would have to be held and the area wishing to secede and the whole city would both have to vote in favor of secession. Only the Valley has any real chance of getting the majorities needed to secede, and it certainly is not a favorite to do so.
Since there are already 88 incorporated cities in Los Angeles County, the incorporation of a new city would not be that difficult to accept. The hardest thing would be the accounting necessary to determine what city assets and liabilities would be transferred to the new city.
Tom
Tom, you state that only three freeways and several winding canyon roads connect the San Fernando Valley with the rest of Los Angeles. Surely you haven't forgotten the Red Line subway to North Hollywood, not to mention Metrolink commuter service and Amtrak!
The Valley wants out of LA and I can't blame them. The LA City School system is one gigantic clusterf$#%^&k, and the Valley is paying more than its share of taxes to prop up those areas that are not carrying their load. I hear even San Pedro and the Wilmington area are thinking of checking out.
uh oh, I knew the snobs of Woodland Hills would get something going.
>>> Surely you haven't forgotten the Red Line subway to North Hollywood, not to mention Metrolink commuter service and Amtrak! <<<
I did not forget them, but the Red Line just pokes its nose into the Valley, like a subway from Manhattan to Queensboro Plaza would link Manhattan to Queens. And Metrolink is a part time commuter railroad, not a full time link, so I thought them hardly worth mentioning.
Tom
Sorry about the length-height mix-up in my original post.
I've got a friend who lives up in Lancaster, which is still in Los Angeles County, but the area suffers from the same "isolated" feeling in respect to the county government due to the seperation caused by the San Gabriel Mountains that you metion between the Valley and City areas of Los Angeles due to the Hollywood Hills. It can get pretty frustrating at times (think Staten Island's attitude pre-Giuliani), and while northern Los Angeles County isn't thinking about secession, it carries the same attitude that it's getting the short end of the stick on county municipal services (though since the new DA out there is a former sheriff's department officer from Palmdale, I think they're a little mollified in terms of law enforcement operations).
On the other hand, the county and state did get Metrolink going in a hurry to that area after the 1994 Northridge quake, so if you yell loud enough at times, you can get action.
well MTA covers most of thw valley with bus & a red line rail station!
However i do not blame the "valley dudes & girls" ...........
for wanting to DROP los angeles big time !!!
Maybe they should go to a ""township or parash or borough"" type
system ! If the valley remains in los angeles city it gets
""half / assed"" with the jive of the big downtown LA crap-oloa..
the valley was supposed to get more rail service than it got !
I in a sense dont blame them for telling downtown LA to "shove it"
!!!!!!..........lol..!!!
This news is all stuff that people can find about on their own, if so desired, I don't think posting it all here is a wise use of our hosts bandwidth. Post a link if you want.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, I happen to find these posts quite useful. I don't have time to read all the railfan sites.
Alciia
Does anybody know what part of South Brooklyn is where SBK scapyard is located? Because I want to pass by there one day & photograph a couple of the scrap trains. Is it possible to go there to photograph the scrap trains or is it prohibited if so could you get arrested for that & receive a fine?
The SBK 'scrapyard' is NOT actually a scrapyard. It is an interchange yard that is shared with the New York Cross Harbor Railroad. It is located at the intersection of 39th Street and 2nd Avenue in the Sunset Park section of Brooklyn. It is across the street from a big Costco warehouse.
I was just over there today and noticed that the gate is padlocked and that there was no one on duty in the guardshack which was usually occuppied even on weekends.
In any event, looked like someone 'bombed' the Redbird cars recently with '70's style graffiti...
Did they ever clean up the asphalt spill on 2nd Ave that was on top of part of the track? I don't think it was enough to keep trains from passing, but it may have been.
subfan
Subfan wrote:
> Did they ever clean up the asphalt spill on 2nd Ave
> that was on top of part of the track? I don't think
> it was enough to keep trains from passing, but it
> may have been.
Tracks from 40th St. to points north along 2nd Ave. are not covered with asphalt. I doubt that you could could still run trains on it in their current state. The surface of the road at the intersection of 39th St. and 2nd Ave. is in really poor condition (both asphalt and rails). Lot of traffic from that Gowanus offramp.
That said, there's a train that goes from around 49th St. and 1st Ave. to the Brooklyn Army Terminal (58th St. and 1st Ave.) once a week (not exactly sure for what purpose). So there's definitely working rails along 1st Ave. for at least eight or nine blocks.
BMTman wrote:
>
> The SBK 'scrapyard' is NOT actually a scrapyard. It
> is an interchange yard that is shared with the New
> York Cross Harbor Railroad. It is located at the
> intersection of 39th Street and 2nd Avenue in the
> Sunset Park section of Brooklyn.
>
> I was just over there today and noticed that the
> gate is padlocked and that there was no one on
> duty in the guardshack which was usually occuppied
> even on weekends.
Try going down 39th St. past 1st Ave. to the piers. You might be able to take pictures through the fence. Also, you might be able to go around the back into the railyard. You'd still be trespassing, though, so you might get arrested (or at the very least expelled from the yard). Also, I wouldn't recommend going to the piers at night. It's a pretty lonely area.
The srapyard was really a pipe yard.
OK, so it's not the South Brooklyn yard, but this thread made me think about some shots I took a long time back - 25 May 1986, to be exact - of the Striegel Supply & Equipment Corp. in Baltimore, Maryland. So I scanned two of them for your viewing pleasure (click on the thumbnail for a larger image).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, everybody! Great to be back!!!!!
Could someone possible supply me with scanner frequencies for the Chicago "L"? I plan to be riding it this week.
Currently, Queens Blvd runs more or less like this on rush hours:
E 15TPH R 9-10TPH
F 15TPH V 6-8TPH
If the V gets extended to Kings Highway/Culver and the G extends to Church Av/Kensington, the F can run express from Jay St to Church Av both directions and Church-Kings peak direction. That way, it is ok to lessen F service without harming Culver and Kensington passengers (me being 1 of them). Therefore, we can reduce F service to 10TPH at Queens Blvd. If we reduce E service from 4min (15TPH) intervals to 6min (10TPH), we can fit in Q trains at 6TPH via Queens express and 63 Street. Since the F runs more frequently than the V and passengers at 53 Street rather take the E or F, the V should run along the 63 Street tunnel and the F should run under the 53rd. Even if the V goes under the 63st tunnel, 6av passengers can still get to local Queens station in a one-seat ride. The E can continue running to Jamaica. The Q can run via Hillside express and the F can continue running Hillside local. Another reason to extend the Q is because many Broadway riders rather transfer to the express E or F at Herald Sq or Times Sq rather than a local R that runs less frequent. (Knowing this since I am a R train conductor on Tuesday rush hours) If the Q ran to Queens AND runs express, Broadway passengers don't have to transfer to get to a Queens express train nor a 63st train. Extending the Q at 6TPH can only give room for the circle Q, so the diamond Q will have to be eliminated. The M can run local to Brighton Bch weekdays providing local service while the circle Q makes express stops in Brighton. This will also cause less congestion on the Manhattan Bridge. The N might have to make local stops via 4av since the R will be the only 4av local train if the M is moved to Brighton. There should be enough R40 Slants and conductors from the Q diamond for the extended Q,V and M and there should be enough R46s for the G.
The advantages of all this is less crowding on the E and F. Less TPH on the Qns Blvd exp line. More ridership on the V and Q. Express service on the Culver line. The only disadvantages are that the G will never go to QB and less service on the 4av line incl. no direct ride from 4av local stops to West End.
On the one hand, it's nice to see creative effort still at work on the Queens Blvd. problem. On the other hand, we're still beating the old dead horse.
The MTA had very good reasons for setting up the 63rd St service the way they did. It works pretty well, helps a lot more people than it hurts, and was the best of the available arrangements. There's a ton of material available in the archives about this. The arrival of more subway cars will also help further, as will restoration of full IND services (see below).
Your suggestions about Brooklyn are understandable. Brooklyn IND service will improve when 1) total track capacity increases after the Manny B reopens for full 4-track service in 2004 (and repair work is on schedule as we speak)and b) the Bergen Tower is repaired or similar signalling services are in place. I have no idea what the Tower's (which suffered a devastating fire) status is now.
I see two major problems with this.
First, G passengers bound for Queens Boulevard local stops, who until December didn't have to transfer at all, have to transfer twice by your plan, first to the E/F and then to the R.
Second, and more important, your plan forces anyone at a Brighton local stop bound for any point in Manhattan north of Delancey Street to transfer to the express (or to the N/R at DeKalb). That's unacceptable. Mess with any other service, even the express, but there absolutely must be direct service from all stops on the Brighton line to midtown Manhattan.
Queens Boulevard service is fine as it is. Crowding is reduced on both the E and the F.
My suggestion has been and is for Queens Blvd:
Express: E{20TPH} Q{10TPH}. If the Q runs runs at less than 10TPH, then the E will have more.
Local: F{18TPH R{9-10TPH}.
E: same but more trains to alleviate crowding
F: 179-Queens Blvd Lcl-53rd St
Q: 179-Hillside/Queens Blvd Exp-63rd St
R: same
V: no longer exists, unnecessary
People for the G train have a direct 53rd St local service in the F. The Q gets into Queens Blvd. The E gets more trains because the F is replaced by the Q as the other express. The V is removed and the F is given more trains to handle 6th Ave. This is all without changing service on the Culver line. Disadvantages: the circle/diamond Q problem: in 2004 it won't be a problem anymore, but right now you have to see if you can redesignate one of them or substitute something down the Brighton. Other disadvantage: no train serves 57/6. I'm not sure what ridership levels are like at that station.
Your plan, while creative, doesn't work. 57/6 is now pretty heavily used, but that's the least of it. E service frequency, which doesn't need to be increased, is limited by capacity in the Archer Avenue tunnel, specifically, the ability to turn trains at Jamaica Center.
You're proposing a solution to a non-problem. There will continue to be minor tweaking to the current plan, and more improvements will follow the opening of the 4-track Manny B service in 2004.
"You're proposing a solution to a non-problem."
There is a problem: the number of people who want to take an express from QB to Manhattan just about equals the current cpacity of the single express track in each direction. In the next employment upsurge the situation will be miserable.
There are 4 general solutions:
1. Tweak the lines so that traffic can be optimally balanced between the express trains, so that some aren't much more crowded than others (right now the E is more crowded than the F). This is not a real fix, but can be important to minimize the misery. Almost all the suggestions posted have been of this type, and probably all or most of them would just make it worse.
2. Increase the capacity of the express tracks above 30 tph. This is complicated, possibly beyond the abilities of TA management.
3. Add one or more additional express tracks. This is VERY expensive.
4. Persuade more people to take the local.
Posters on Subtalk like to talk about #1 because it's fun, and there's always the hope of coming up with a really good idea.
The TA likes #4 because it's their best hope in times of limited resources.
Increase the capacity of the express tracks above 30 tph. This is complicated, possibly beyond the abilities of TA management.
What restricts these tracks to 30 tph? As everyone knows, in Paris, headways as low as 1 min 40 s (36 tph) have been operated and they know they can do 40 tph if there were ever the need. What makes New York incapable of running that kind of service?
Other postings have addressed this at length. At the risk of mangling the info, let me try to respond:
- To manage more tph, you have to keep exactly on schedule, neither early nor late. If you're early, you run empty and the next train runs too full.
- Dispatch clocks aren't accurate enough.
- T/Os and C/Rs aren't sufficiently encouraged not to run a minute early in mid-trip.
- New Yorkers are an unruly bunch compared to denizens of other cities. You just can't persuade them that it's to the greater good not to hold the doors for an extra 10 seconds so that they can get on the train.
- T/Os don't have info that tells them that they're 30 seconds ahead of schedule, and therefore slow down a bit to the next stop, or vice versa that they're 30 seconds behind and should make every possible effort to get to the next stop ASAP.
- The safety precautions instituted over the last few decades mandate more room between trains.
- Block signaling doesn't allow for closer spacing that would in fact be safe.
I think that you can add the issue of merges. Perhaps other lines do not have diverging routes dodging in and out. Even the parts of the IND that were designed for this kind of operation have been second and third guessed by subsequent generations of subway management, so that what once was efficient, no longer is so.
Some of our terminals do not seem to be able to turn and recycle trainsets fast enough. perhaps other lines have other ways of doing it.
I looked at the NTSB report on the Williamsburg Bridge collision, and it seems that there *are* problems with the signalling system, and susequent to that report we saw the introduction of more restrictive signalling and timing devices and also the introduction of motor shunts.
To Run at higher intervals you need to address all of these issues, as well as the ones in the previous post. There is no good reason NOT to run 40 tph, but it will take the complete overhaul of our safety and control systems, and the simplification of track routings.
Elias
I will agree that ridership will surge as the economy gets better. Your analysis of the four points you suggest is good.
I will offer, in turn, the following:
1) Improvements in LIRR service (East Side Access) will help, and ESA is under construction. But this will not help in the near term.
2) The Queens Bypass Express is still possible to build - but will require much $$$ and, now that 63rd Street service is open, would be behind projects in other boroughs (ike the Second Av Subway, LGA, etc.) in priority.
I have already pointed out that the Manny B reopening in 2004 will help Brooklyn directly and everyone else indirectly.
How does LIRR East side access reduce QB congestion? I can see it dramtically reducing 7 line congestion as people no longer take the LIRR to Hunters Point, but how does it help QB?
Alo, how does MB reopening even indirectly help QB?
Question1:
----------
Where duz da C go after Euclid Av? Is the relay located in Pitkin Yard, or is there a separate relay yard, or does the C bypass Grant Av and use the middle exp track as relay?
Question2:
----------
Why did the MTA no longer make the W run express in Astoria anymore? Both the W and N make all local stops in Astoria now.
Here's a partial answer to your first question.
According to the track map of the Pitkin Yard area on this site, the express track which seemingly emerges from under the Grant Av platform does not connect with the express tracks of Euclid Av station, but connects directly to the Yard. Also, according to the map, there seems to be four layup tracks east of the Yard connection, but no easy way of switching from, say, the east bound local to the west bound local tracks. Thus, I'm guessing that the C goes toward the Yard at least and until it passes a switch track that would allow it to go back and merge on to the west bound tracks.
The C train relays on the Pitkin Yard lead, but does not actually enter the Yard unless a long relay is performed to drop somebody off. For regular relays, the T/O stops at the 8 car reverse marker where you can see the Yard portal. There is no special relay Yard or siding track.
Also, the middle track at 80 St-Hudson St is not an express track, but a Yard lead which is not part of the mainline. Once it goes underground, it curves directly into Pitkin Yard with no direct access to Euclid Av. An express track would be signified on the signal plates by an A3 or A4 track designation. That middle track is known as A6 and automatic signals can be keyed on that track without permission which is a big no-no on mainline tracks.
Heard a blurb on the news that the Staten Island Railway will be getting new substations and that this will mess up service. Any details?
AFAIK, the only work being done on the SIR currently is the installation of a new signalling system.
-Hank
On Saturday, May 6, I spotted a work consist at Eltingville. Looked like rail replacement- had a couple of flatbeds with pre-assembled track, and a crane of the type often used on SIR- capable of running on asphalt as well as track.
I took some photos with my digital camera. If anyone's interested, write me, I'll be happy to mail them to you.
I've uploaded some more pictures:
4052 - the other CLRV that was wrapped up in advertising for Guinness:
Click here
4134 - the CLRV that has seen the most different ad wraps:
Click here
The first two streetcars that the TTC had wrapped in advertising were ALRV 4251 and CLRV 4134 which were done up for Starbucks. I have one print picture which I'll find and scan later and one slide of the ALRV; the one time I saw 4134 in the Starbucks advertisment was when I was eating in a restaurant in the basement of a building on King St. and I saw the lower half of the streetcar go by so I never got to photograph it. 4134 was then rewrapped for CHUM FM, then Ontario Power Generation and then I believe it was unwrapped and went to Hillcrest for it's light overhual. ALRV 4251 was unwrapped and to date no ALRV has been wrapped in advertising since. 4251 came back from being repainted at Hillcrest several months ago.
4052 and 4149 were taken and wrapped up for Guinness during 4134's time in the CHUM advertisment. Unfortunately, 4149 broke down and wasn't scheduled to be repaired before the Guinness contract expired, however it was repaired and returned to service shortly before the advertising contract with Guinness finished up and I found and photographed it on Bathurst (I don't have any prints of those slides to scan). Then both 4149 and 4052 were rewrapped in blue advertising for IBM which I don't have any prints from the slides to scan in. If you look closely at the pictures of 4052 and 4149, you will notice that 4149 has a black band in the vinyl advertising wrap carrying around the front of the car, above the anticlimber, which isn't present in 4052's vinyl wrap. The black band was to conceal a nast rust gash on 4149 just above the anticlimber which was subsequently repaired when it went in for its light overhaul and repaint; the black band was repeated in its IBM advertisment as well and stood out more against the blue background. Late in the summer, CLRV 4181 was taken and wrapped up in a second CHUM FM advertisment which was similar to but a variation of the one used on 4134 which I have a scan of.
There you have the history of Toronto's adwrapped streetcars in a nutshell.
I really need to get a slide/film scanner...
-Robert King
Story here
A rather long section of unused tunnel past the end of one of Montreal's subway lines is used for similar purposes. There's a webpage on it but it's in French and I don't have it's address on this computer...
-Robert King
Robert, if you can find the address please post it... my French is rusty but I should be able to make enough sense of it to understand what they are talking about.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
way to go WMATA
A pair of old Metro cars ?
Were these cars involved in a low level collision or have some defect ? I had no idea Metro had any OLD cars in the property.
Bill "Newkirk"
They did. I saw one of the cars sitting outside the facility a few weeks ago although I had no idea why it was there.
My guess is they used 1114 and 1115, although I am not sure.
I remember seeing the money train used a pair of unmodified 1000's as work motors
Interesting way of putting the second avenue subway tunnels under the COnfucious Houses to work ..... or maybe that often-neglected 76th St station in Queens :)
--Mark
Has there been any R143 sightings of the M either regular service (to 9 Av/Bay Pkwy) or shuttle service (which is probably more likely to be seenon the M)?
Thanks!
Nick
I don't think the R-143's will be showing up on the M until they've filled up the L.
None of the t/o's who work the M are qualified on the R143 yet unless they spend time on the L line during any day of their work week. R143's are not necessary on the M till OPTO gets implimented (9/8/02 or the Spring 2003 pick-to be determined).
As of right now no. The R-143 hasn't even been programmed yet with any other Eastern Division (J,L,M,Z) line into its' route computers other than the L line. Once the cars start being accepted into the system in numbers, and once the programming for the M and all Eastern Div. routes have all been programmed into the 143 computers, then count on seeing them show up on the M line in regular service.
Get thee to the northbound platform of Castle Hill Avenue on the 6, near the middle. I don't have an exact date since I only noticed it in passing from a moving train, but it has a service table in the upper right-hand corner and (I'm not entirely sure of this) it seems to be organized by time rather than by borough, which would place it in the mid-90's.
Not as bad as during the early 1960s, when the ubiquitous 1947 maps could still be found in many stations.
-- Ed Sachs
AFAIK, there's still a 70's map hiding at 57/6.
Dig that K train!
As of about 3 weeks ago, the 70's map at 57/6 is still there.
CG
No, sorry Mr. Greenberger, I think it's gone. Based on your earlier posting (late 2001 ish) and my own observations (1998 or so), I remember this map.
I went looking for it in January or February of this year- couldn't find it anywhere on the mezzanine or platform. My guess is that they finally got to removing it when they re-signed the 6th Ave Line for the V and re-routed F.
I seem to remember you'd also posted something about a "KK" sign still being present there. Alas, it also seemed gone.
However, at Bowling Green, at the Battery Place entrances, you can still find "4" and "5" signs in their 1967 colors.......